ASL – Virtual Discussion Session related to VRS Review (Day 3) – 4 of 4
Video Transcript
Session 1: Members of the Ontario VRS Coalition
Alex Keenan: Hello, everyone. Thank you for joining us today. My name is Alex, and I am the facilitator today. I am a Caucasian woman with long brown hair, streaked with silver. Today I'm wearing black-rimmed glasses and a black sweater. I'm the facilitator of this session, which means that my role is to moderate the conversation between the participants and commissioners at the CRTC about user experiences with video relay service, or VRS.
Before we begin, I want to acknowledge that I am joining this call from the unceded ancestral territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe nation. I recognize that many of you are in different locations and therefore may be in different traditional indigenous territories. I invite you to take a moment to reflect in gratitude and pay tribute to the elders wherever you are.
Today we are joined by Andrew and Sarah from the Ontario VRS Coalition. I’d like to invite to you introduce yourselves, and Andrew is first on my screen, if you want to start.
Andrew Stadnicki: Hi, there. My name is Andrew Stadnicki. I'm one of the committee members for Ontario VRS Committee. We have been involved with the CRTC interventions previously in addition to today's review. Today I will be speaking to more of my personal experiences using this service and my knowledge as a whole regarding this service.
Alex Keenan: Thank you, Andrew. How about you, Sarah?
Sarah Stadnicki: Hi, there. My name is Sarah Stadnicki. Originally I helped found the Ontario Video Relay Service Committee to have some say within the first public hearing and now here I am again today for the review. So, now that the service is in place I am just here to share my service as a personal video relay service user, and I’d like to thank you so much for allowing me to join you today.
Alex Keenan: It’s a pleasure, Sarah. Thank you. Alright. I’m going to turn it over to our commissioner now. Nirmala, would you like to introduce yourself?
Nirmala: Hello, my name is Nirmala. It’s a pleasure to meet you both today. Thank you for being here. I am a South Asian woman with long brown hair. I’m wearing a dark green sweater today because it’s a little chilly where I come from, and I'm coming to you from Calgary, Alberta. I'm the commissioner for Alberta and the Northwest Territories. Thank you.
Alex Keenan: Thank you, Nirmala. Alicia, would you like to go next?
Alicia: Absolutely. Thank you, Alex. Hello. My name is Alicia. I am the vice chair broadcasting at the CRTC. I am a woman, long black hair, I’m wearing a navy blue jacket, and I am speaking to you from Montreal, Quebec, and I very much look forward to our conversation today. Thank you for participating in this.
Alex Keenan: Thank you, Alicia. Then Joanne.
Joanne: Hi. My name is Joanne,, and I come to you from a little city just north of Saskatoon called Warman. I am the commissioner for Saskatchewan and Manitoba. I'm a white woman with short blondish hair. I'm wearing glasses with red rims and a red sweater and black cardigan because it's chilly here, too, and I'm especially interested in your perspectives because obviously you were here at beginning of the VRS experience, so I think you have a lot of personal and organizational knowledge that you can add to our learning. Thank you.
Alex Keenan: Thank you, Joanne. Alright. So, let’s dive into our conversation. The first topic we have for discussion is your experience using VRS, and we’ll cover three little subtopics here. The first is aspects or features of the service that have worked well for you, the second is any problems or challenges you've had using VRS, and the third is suggestions for improvement. So, let's start with aspects or features of VRS that you find work well, and I’ll invite either of you to start.
Andrew Stadnicki: I’d like to start with a bit of background context before I dive into that question. I'm a white male with short hair. I'm wearing a black polo shirt today, and just a bit of extra background information that may help you understand the lens of perspective of which I'm coming from. I do have some notes taken that I will be referencing just so I can keep on point and not use up too much time, too much of your time today. I'm a third generation deaf individual. My mother is here today, as you can see. So, I come from a home environment where we use sign language in comparison to other individuals that may not have that same experience. I have a bit of video relay service experience even prior to the inception of Canada VRS in an American context. My mom was working as an event planner during that time and for an organization in the States, and through her work, they did have video relay service providers there to promote their service, so I have been seeing this from an early age and was really happy to see it finally established here in a Canadian context. My undergraduate, I have an undergraduate degree and a master's degree, so seven years total of studies. Both of these degrees were obtained within the States, and I have seen the American abilities and features of video relay service there. I studied computer science in university, and then I branched off into the business administration world, and now I'm back into programming again right now. So, with that knowledge and background of programming, I can understand and appreciate what’s possible out there and what can happen. Typically, you know, what you see is what you get, and for the interpreters, we’re just going to go ahead and switch interpreters while it’s a brief pause. So, with that background in mind, the things that I appreciate about VRS is the ability to make a call. With regards to particular features that I like, currently, what Canada Video Relay Service is a fairly basic functionality without many additional features. Ingoing and outgoing calls and video messages, which would be the equivalent of voicemail.
So, adding a little bit more about my background. I have had an opportunity to review CAV’s statistics in their draft form, and it seems to show that an average user will spend nine hours on calls through VRS in a year, and this is as recent as December of 2021 and 2022, so I certainly use more than that. I made 1000 calls equaling 290 hours of calls in 2022, and this is information that I personally requested from CAV. This is data from 2020 and 2021 because I know in 2022 I used it even more than that, so this was the data that they were able to share with me. So, based on my background and experience, I'm set apart from a typical VRS user, so I actually am privileged to see more, both more problems and more frustrations that generate more ideas and this is why I am part of the Ontario VRS Coalition or Committee. So, you might be perplexed about how many calls I've made, and the reason for that is I'm a business owner and it puts me in a different position. I'm an independent financial adviser. I provide life, health insurance and investment solutions for clients, and, of course, working a lot with finance institutions means I've had a lot of opportunity to have conversations with them and have noted through those the big problems that present themselves in Canada VRS.
So, you are asking about what particular features. Now, ingoing and outgoing calls and video messages are features that are absolutely necessary and I do appreciate them. I appreciate being able to use my primary language to make calls, and this is accessible through video relay service. Some problems that I have identified, and just for context, I like to express problem paired with solution ideas because I think this will lead to societal transformation faster, and there’s already various problems and solutions, most of which I will cover that are covered in my written intervention. I will try not to repeat myself too much. So, to emphasize the scale of the problems at VRS right now, there are quite a few. So, CAV had an opportunity to dialogue, and I had 46 open tickets for one year from February to February, so if you keep that in mind, 46 tickets, each of which corresponded with a different issue, so they weren't repeat issues. So, for example, issues with the call logs not populating. Now, looking at the 2022 year, I have 15 open tickets currently. The reduction in that number, 46 to 15, is not an indication of improvement, unfortunately. It’s more an indication of me picking my battles, so making decisions not to necessarily open a ticket when I don’t feel that it will be heard. So, I had, based on the dialogue I had with CAV when I talked about the number of open tickets, gave me pause for concern, because the more tickets I have to file, hopefully that can raise awareness with the CRTC of the problems inherent that need resolution, and I was concerned, though, that perhaps I might experience penalties as a result of that because we don't have other options in Canada. We have CAV, and that is all. If, for example, I developed problems with Telus as a user, and I experience repercussions based on that, I could have two other major telecom companies to go to, but in Canada, there’s only one provider so if something goes south in my interaction with them, I'm concerned about that being used against me. So, with that said, my suggestion for CAV and CRTC, many problems can be solved with dialoguing and engagement with the community. CAV does have an outreach team. Their structure and approach, however, with the community is not useful. Currently, you can contact customer service dialing 9050 through the app, and if you want to provide feedback through CAV, you must use their customer service number. Unfortunately, that is a third party vendor that CAV has contracted with, their vendor platform. Sometimes the feedback is to do with the platform and various technical features, but in terms of feedback making it to CAV, the customer service is a bit of a gatekeeper and often filters information that gets sent to CAV, so it may be that CAV doesn't receive authentic concerns from the community level because they’re filtered through customer service. I've had various, I had an opportunity to participate in outreach events and watch outreach events, and the things that get brought up are often not things that are relevant to the community. I have two family members in my house who don't use video relay service or even have video relay service accounts because they are feeling resistant, even though it could be of use to them. So, this also affects my experience and opinion.
Now, in terms of video relay service customer service, now, before I continue, I just want to make sure, am I good to continue with my remarks. Is there anything CRTC or anyone else needs to say or input at this point?
Alex Keenan: I think Nirmala has something, maybe a follow-up question or a comment. We are going to move on to customer service in our next stage of the conversation, so, you know, I’m happy to hear it now or we can hold that and get to it next, but I will let Nirmala make her remarks.
Nirmala: Andrew, thank you so much for your very insightful comments. They’ve just been incredibly helpful. I'm just wondering, what kinds of complaints you’re talking about when you talk about the volume of complaints and the fact that you think the issue with them not being dealt with is more of a lack of external outreach to the public at large, I'm wondering what kind of complaints you're talking about. Specifically, I'm trying to figure out, are there some things that you think CAV isn't dealing with that it could actually deal with internally such as connection times and, you know, VRS for business, that kind of stuff, or is it mostly that they’re not actually doing the outreach that allows you to deal with external organizations like banking institutions, for example? If you could just elaborate on that so I have a better picture in my mind.
Andrew Stadnicki: Well, both. So, perhaps CAV does receive and resolve things that come to them, but it’s often behind a curtain, so to speak, so the community doesn't necessarily see this happening. So, in my intervention, I indicated that during this review, you know, there is a link to a Facebook group that is not official. This is where community members often share their frustrations and share real time information with each other. For example, if there’s a platform crash and CAV isn't progressive with disseminating that information so it comes from a member of the community.
Now, we’ve made multiple suggestions to CAV of what kind of features would need to be added in the intervention and features that would benefit all personal users and features that would benefit business users or employees who use it through their work, and CAV, we find often that they make decisions on what features to develop and include without necessarily tuning into deaf community needs, so this to me shows that they’re not necessarily tuned into the needs of the community. For example, 911. So, right at the beginning of COVID, people began to realize the very important significance of 911. We had it, of course. Before COVID, we could use 711, but during COVID we realized the usefulness of some of the other three digit numbers, 311, 511 for public health vaccination information and so on and so forth. I'm a programmer, and I made a suggestion to CAV that the VRS platform, the address information that’s associated with that person's account, that if, for example, that user dialed 311, as an example, moments before they connected with an interpreter built into the system could be recognition of that account’s address and thus which 10-digit number to dial in lieu of the 311 number. So, you know, is an easy to remember number and deaf community numbers may not know that, like, local number relevant. They told me that this feature was impossible. Then, as time went on and this hearing began and interventions began to come in, they of course disseminated that, yes, in fact, they could do 311, that it was a technical feature, so this was an example where they, that this was a feature that was possible but I didn't feel heard in my original suggestion of it.
Nirmala: So, Andrew, it sounds to me like, I’ve read your written comments and listened to you talking, and it sounds like a lot of what your issues are is that there’s no circling back to the person who’s made the complaint and there’s no communication about upgrades to the systems or improvements to the systems. You feel, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but are you saying that when you make a complaint, you just don't know if it’s going anywhere? There’s just a lack of communication.
Andrew Stadnicki: Correct. There have been some situations where they have responded, simply with a we're working on it and then close the ticket, and then I don’t receive follow-up information. I'm very pleased that you had an opportunity to read my intervention because that makes this engagement a lot easier. Now, I'm curious, the commissioners present, have you called a deaf person using VRS before?
Nirmala: No.
Andrew Stadnicki: Okay, then I would invite you to try that one day, and just one moment while the interpreters switch. As I was saying, I really invite you to try that one day because I feel as though that experience, you know, it often loses business opportunities for me as a business owner. Just in a nutshell, I’ll try my best to explain how video relay works. If a hearing individual is calling a deaf individual, for example, so the hearing nondeaf person would dial the number, and I’ll post a video link, as well, with a more concrete example of this, but they will hear a ring and then they connect to a recording that says, hi, this is Ken at the video relay service. Please wait for us to connect you through to an interpreter, and so that’s a bit odd for nondeaf hearing individuals who are unaware of video relay service and unaware of things within the deaf community and so maybe they think they are reaching a front desk personnel. Then they connect through to an interpreter and hear a woman's voice. This is often what happens for me. I'm a male, but typically the interpreting profession is quite female dominated, so then the hearing person will get confused, think that they were trying to reach me, and then the interpreter will explain, well, just one moment, let me connect you through to your caller, so again it’s another delay for the hearing individual. Then, I get a ring on my app, I answer the call, the interpreter lets them know it’s interpreted, and we proceed with the content. In America VRS services, when they place the call, the hearing individual simply hears ringing, and when an interpreter is available it continues ringing for the hearing person, so the hearing individual just hears a typical phone ring. Once the deaf person is on the line, then the call actually begins, so the deaf user gets to say the first word rather than the interpreter having that first interaction with the hearing caller. If the interpreter is not able to get the deaf caller on the line then they will say to the caller sorry we were not able to connect your call, so I feel like that is an on par experience for both the hearing and deaf individuals because it allows the deaf user to take control of their call, to have that first word, and CAV is saying that this is just not feasible. We do have the platform. That’s evidence in and of itself that it is possible.
One thing for me that really struck me was a few months ago my bank and my mother's bank required the two factor authentication in order to get into our account information, and that gave me pause because my grandmother doesn't own a cell phone, so the only option for her is to call and get the code. So, with that, with the VRS process as it is, a person connecting through to a machine, and then if you are connecting through to an automated system the message is just going to come out and be kind of thrown into the abyss before an interpreter is even on the line, and that way the end caller has never even received the message whatsoever. As soon as they pick up the call, it’s dead air. So, this is just an example.
In terms of enhancing features, at the beginning it was really quite terrible. CAV had decided to use flash technology when the VRS platform was first established. It was not recommended to use this technology, this flash technology, for security reasons. Nothing new had been developed, but it was still chosen, and so that was an going battle at the beginning to really advocate and have a shift to a new app. With a MAC compatibility as well as PC compatibility, it’s not perfect. There are still a lot of issues, don't get me wrong, but it’s definitely much, much better than the original offering. The app that I have on my phone, I really have not updated it since day one. There are a lot of functions and features that are incompatible. Oftentimes it will sign me out or I’ll get an incoming call that I try it pick up and then it crashes, and I keep reaching out to try and get this resolved, and they keep telling me that it’s not, it will be fixed but it’s not a priority. The priority right now is the video interpreters platform. Sorry, the interpreter just has to clarify. So, once the video interpreter platform is updated there seems to be a lot -- sorry, the interpreter has to clarify again -- there have been a lot of outages. Continual crashing. So, it seems as though it hadn't been piloted ahead of time in a real user environment. This is being used at the expense of deaf callers, and I do understand where CAV is coming from. They’re coming from a business perspective. The CRTC has limited funding for this service that is capped at, you know, it’s capped. It’s for accessibility purposes. At the same time, I do understand that CAV has not been using the $30 million for the last few years. We need to ensure that the platform is foundationally sound from the get go, and so I see both sides of the table.
For example, I don't know where this decision came from, but with the decision to use this particular platform, I’ve noticed a number of common issues. In other countries, they have decided to get rid of this particular platform, and I don't know if it was a business decision to choose the most cost-effective platform or where that came from, but with my experience, in the beginning of 2021, how many of you were aware that the CRA had a severe data breach? As a financial adviser, I unfortunately had to deal with that for a multitude of my clients, so, at the beginning of 2021 it was just horrible. I’d be on hold for over four hours with CRA. Often times, just for something that was really simple and a quick fix, whether it be tax breaks or you name it, I understand that it was a very overwhelming time for them. For me, there was one client that I was assisting with who just needed to speak to a representative for five minutes, and it was over 24 hours before we were finally able to establish that connection with the CRA representative, and this is not on CRA's fault, that 24-hour wait. It’s because the platform will crash after 2 to 3 hours. So, I'm on hold with an interpreter for 3 hours and then it crashes and I have to call back again and then it crashes again. And again. And again. So, that 24 hours used up a lot of interpreter resources. It was a waste of interpreter resources, and I feel like it comes back to the platform not being fully developed. Perhaps because of some expensive, it ends up being more expensive in the end because they are paying interpreters to wait on hold.
Alex Keenan: Thank you, Andrew. I see that Joanne has her hand up.
Joanne: Thank you. This is really quite fascinating because I don't think we have had an opportunity to talk to someone with your sort of professional background and experience. Is your, so, you’re trying to use the system for your business, correct? Yes?
Andrew Stadnicki: Yes. That's correct. Primarily, yeah. I do have a little bit more information that speaks to that.
Joanne: Okay.
Andrew Stadnicki: I made a thousand outgoing calls with a total of 290 hours on my business account and then 3 hours for my personal account with a total of 27 call hours in my personal account. Pardon me. That was the interpreter’s error. It was 27 calls with a total of 3 hours for the year of 2022.
Joanne: So is your, just to fill out the entirety of your experience, are a lot or most or some of your clients also using ASL also requiring the VRS service to use, so do you sort of specialize in financial advising to a group -
Andrew Stadnicki: Yes. That’s a good question. Very good question. I have over a thousand clients that I provide services for. A hundred clients, pardon me, and all of them do use sign language. Some of them are not deaf, but they've got some sort of relation to the deaf community, whether it be a family member or otherwise. I would say 2 out of those 100 clients I use VRS to contact. Most of my outgoing calls are for follow-ups to financial institutions, banks, having transfers, remedying errors. When I engage with my clients, I typically use Zoom for the most part. I only have two clients out of those 100 that I contact using video relay service.
Joanne: That was my other question was, you know, what alternatives you use if you’re dealing with people who are using sign language. This is interesting because I think we were under the impression that it wasn't possible to have a business account with VRS, so that’s not correct. Okay. Thank you very much. This is very helpful.
Alex Keenan: Thank you, Joanne. I do just want to point out, any comments about budget are actually out of the scope of this conversation. What we’re really interested in is the user experience, and I appreciate, Andrew, that that is mostly what you’re talking about. I’ll just ask that we, you know, we keep it, you know, to that topic of your experiences with it. Yeah. Thank you, and I see that Alicia has her hand up.
Alicia: Hi. Andrew, again, thank you very much for your comments so far. I have one very pointed question, and it relates to a comment that you made about having other individuals in your household who could have an account with CAV for VRS service but that do not have one and you said because there was some kind of resistance, and I’d just like to delve a little bit more into that. What are the issues with those individuals not getting accounts?
Andrew: Sure. One is a senior citizen, so I take care of their finances. My mom, or the other individual has heard a lot of my own complaints and my mother's complaints in regards to video relay service so they see the feedback about it. Like I said, I use the service quite a fair bit, and at the end of the day, around the dinner table, you know, I might say, oh, I wasted so much time doing this or that, so it’s often the not positive experiences that tend to travel the quickest to others, right? So, they just decided that they were never going to use it unless they were forced to for some reason.
Alex Keenan: I would love to give Sarah a chance to comment. Do you have anything you want to share with us about your experience using VRS, Sarah?
Sarah Stadnicki: Yes. I would just like to say that I am a Caucasian woman. I'm wearing a dark t-shirt. I have short brown and gray hair. Andrew has really touched upon a lot of what I wanted to share, as well. I do want to give my thanks to the CRTC for listening to the deaf community, you know, since the inception of video relay service. As a deaf individual, I cannot say how much I appreciate having access to being able to make phone calls in my primary language, and I see user comfort in the community with making their own calls for their day-to-day needs and their day-to-day life. I work as a deaf interpreter myself, and I see a lot of challenges experienced by those in the community. There is a lot of stories that I'm privy to. I do use video relay service, as well. I can place outgoing calls. I can use sign language to conduct those calls. That's fantastic. The pieces that I don't like, however, are that oftentimes the app, if somebody is trying to call me back, so I have an incoming call, I don't get notified via the app and it automatically goes to my video mail. My app is already open, but I'm still not getting the notification, and Andrew has already spoken to this. It comes down to the platform. So, I do know that CAV had chosen to purchase the cheapest platform available out of what was offered, and, you know, it doesn't have all of the bells and whistles. It’s kind of a starting block for the first year. There were limited hours of operational service. My concerns were if an emergency came up in the nighttime hours and I needed to call 911, do I need to wait for an interpreter to become available?
Once it became a 24-hour service, that was a huge feeling of relief for me, and I do have access to interpreters, which is also wonderful. I guess I just have some disappointment with the app. Sometimes my interactions on calls, I don't appreciate being told by the video interpreter that, oh, this is policy. I have to announce that this is a Canada video relay service call. When I hear that, I think, hello, this is not empowering the deaf user, to address the call being facilitated via sign language interpreter themselves. Oftentimes when that announcement is made we get disconnected or hung up on. If you’re calling a credit card company, they will often say we cannot speak to you through a third party. This person is not on file, and so I will often beg the interpreter, please do not announce that this is a video relay service interpreted call, and they’ll come back to me and say, well, it’s policy, and for me as a deaf user, that feels oppressive to be told that, to be, to have it all fall back on a piece of policy.
Sometimes I’ve placed an outgoing call and the interpreter is a colleague of mine. I've explained, you know, my frustrations trying to reach the credit card company, and I’ve said, please do not announce that this is an interpreted call. I will do it, and they agree. When the call is connected, I say, I'm communicating through a sign language interpreter and there are no issues whatsoever. So, I just want to remind VRS providers and 9050 customer service to not force deaf individuals to suffer through that announcement through the interpreter because the hearing person on the other end of the line is thinking, Canada VRS call, what’s this all about? Perhaps it’s a scam of some sort. It doesn't sound natural. Maybe they think the wrong number has been dialed and they’ll hang up. That’s right off the bat. That’s what the interpreters say. This is a Canada video relay service call, I’ll be interpreting, we have a deaf caller using sign language to communicate, and the call proceeds from there. The hearing individual on the other - - that's a mouthful for the hearing individual to hear right off the bat, so for me, I feel like that creates push back. I want to be empowered to share that it’s an interpreted call, and that policy in place really disempowers us as callers.
For the last little while, I’ve noted that some interpreters have shared that they do have an option for the caller to self-announce or for the interpreter to do it. However, unfortunately, most video interpreters are trained to follow a script where they have to announce that it’s an interpreted call right off the get go, so as soon as the hearing person comes on the line, they break eye contact, and it’s almost like second nature that they just recite this script, and I feel like that really takes away from my rights as deaf caller.
Sometimes I want to call my aunt. My aunt knows who I am. She doesn't need to know it is a VRS call. I don't need to tell her I'm calling through an interpreter. So, for me as a user, that causes a lot of strife. There is a lot of privilege. Interpreters have language access. But I just, I can't imagine what other deaf individuals who may not be so much in the know are experiencing and those microaggressions that they are encountering on a day-to-day, so I just, I hate that part. I just wish that there would be an option on the platform where we can choose for the interpreter to announce that it’s an interpreted call or to have the deaf individual self-announce. I really think that would add additional empowerment to VRS users.
The interpreter is telling deaf callers, well, I have to do this because it’s policy. This is what I have to do.
If our home internet is down at home, and I'm driving, for example, for an out of town assignment, he’ll reach out and say, I'm out of town, or, my internet is down, can I use your video relay service account, and so I can hotspot from my device to my laptop for video relay service because otherwise, like, of course I’ve got the password saved in there, and an outgoing call can be placed. Once it connects to the interpreter and the other individual, the interpreter might be perplexed as to why they’re seeing someone else's name on the account. Why does it say Sarah? That's because he’s calling on my behalf. At the end of the call, the interpreter told the hearing, told Andrew I'm going to be reporting you. The funny thing was that when he had a meeting with the executive director, they had mentioned that he’s not supposed to be using his mother's account for VRS calls, but I am the account holder. I wanted them to contact me, so I felt like I was being targeted. Why does the interpreter possess that power to report him for using someone else's account? They are bound by a code of ethics and guidelines for professional conduct. I know that reporting needs to be done if you’re harming someone else, if you’re harming yourself, if you witness abuse to a child. This is obviously done in confidence or if there’s harassment that’s targeted toward the interpreter. Those are incidences where a report is justified, but if a deaf user is making a call regardless of whose device they are using, that is their right and they have the freedom to do that, just as hearing nondeaf individuals have the right to share their phone with other hearing people. CAV permits – sorry, the interpreter just has to clarify - CAV does not permit the sharing of accounts. Though you need to be the registered user in order to use a particular account, they don't permit that account to be shared. I do have some stories from community members who have told me that maybe their husband was using their wife's account and the interpreter wanted to get their ID just to prove that they were in the room, and for me that’s one piece that I really do not appreciate. From a human rights standpoint, if I am making the call, I have the ability to say whatever it is that I want, and we’re just going to switch interpreters.
Alex Keenan: I will note we only have about 6 minutes left, so we’re going to need to wrap up.
Interpreter: Oh, just one moment. Do you mind repeating yourself? We were just switching, and I didn’t hear what you said.
Alex Keenan: Yes, that was my fault. We have only about 6 minutes left, so we’re going to need to wrap this up shortly.
Sarah Stadnicki: Okay, that's fine. I will wrap up soon. I guess what I want to emphasize is that policies and procedures in the workplace are fine, but when you hire interpreters, they must file a code of ethics. It is not the interpreter to honor the workplace policy over their own code of ethics. It’s really troubling because I, if they have to follow a policy, it might interfere with their requirement through the code of ethics to protect the deaf person and put their needs first. When my rights are being revoked by the interpreter because of a written policy, this is something that I very much don't appreciate in terms of CAV process and policy, so that’s what I wanted to share.
Alex Keenan: Thank you, Sarah. Andrew, did have you something to add?
Andrew: Yes. If it’s okay just to briefly mention something about customer service. I know I covered a lot in my intervention, but I think it was, it’s important to cover to do with 911. So, I had a customer service experience, and I think I would like to emphasize that customer service should be separate from technical support in terms of who to contact and how it gets resolved, and the reason for this is because when I called customer service, of course I could use sign language. Unfortunately, the customer service personnel use LSQ and not ASL because they are based out of Montreal, so they’re not native users, and I'm not sure, for example, how much they’re gathering because it is their third or fourth language, so there’s often miscommunication happening, and so they will take the information that I share and type out a ticket but I don't know, I can't see the ticket and I can't confirm that they have fully understood what I’ve said. A manager contacted me for follow-up and there was written English that was part of my ticket, but I prefer to use ASL as my primary language, so when they responded with a written English ticket that means I don't get to interact in my native language, and it’s an oppressive process. Now, there are people who have experienced language deprivation and find the use of customer service in sign language very useful to them, but unfortunately they don't have ASL as language A to Z, start to finish with customer service resolution. So, some people may be forced to operate in a nonpreferred language. Then, one quick thing about my 911 experience, which I think is really important to mention. I am very fortunate. I’ve only had to call 911 once, and my experience of 911 would have been great if the app had worked. So, it happened on a morning I had to call 911 on behalf of a family member, and I was able to connect to the interpreter but there were problems with pixelation on the screen, and it got quite frustrating because it was a medical emergency, and it was in COVID times so that didn’t help, either. So, I decided to disconnect from the call. I had just finished a work meeting, and it had finished early, so luckily the interpreter who was booked for the meeting that ended early, I have their personal contact information so I was able to contact them while they were still technically on the clock and they were able to interpret the 911 call for me, and it was resolved that way. The family member taken to the hospital and so on. They are fine now, in case you’re wondering, but the fact that I was so privileged to have access to an interpreter that I had a personal connection with, that I just facetimed, that didn't get paid for the service that they provided, that’s a feature of my privilege. So, most people who would call 911, they’re going to have to be calling from their cell phone.
Alex Keenan: It is 12:59. We do need to wrap it up, but I thank you for sharing that story, Andrew.
So, I want to tell you quickly what is going to happen next. The CRTC is going to add captions to these videos and share them on its YouTube channel, and you will be able to view those videos and a phase will be added to the VRS review so you can comment on the videos relating to the content of what you’re seeing, so that includes clarification to any interpretations of what you have communicated. So, you will be hearing from someone when that is ready for you to view and comment.
We’ve heard a lot from you. You’ve shared so much, and I want to thank you for being open with your experiences and willing to have this conversation with us.
Alex Keenan: Yes.
Sarah Stadnicki: May I just add something briefly? I want to emphasize that VRS and accessibility is a human right. This is already part of people's lives, and we just need to make sure that this right doesn't forcibly make people experience oppression as part of it via the interpreter, manager, policy, and structure. They should not have power over the deaf person, but they should be empowering the deaf person as an equal, and that is our goal for a transformational and social shift to result in equity.
Andrew Stadnicki: Thank you so much for the opportunity to be present with you today.
Alex Keenan: Thank you so much to both of you. I appreciate you being here.
That concludes this session. Enjoy the rest of your day.
Session 2: Members of the Deaf Wireless Canada Committee
Alex Keenan: I’m going to do the formal opening. You’ll have a chance to introduce yourselves, and then we’ll get started with your comments. Alright. Yeah. Thank you for asking. Okay. Patrick, I see we are recording. Okay, and we’re off.
Hello, and thank you for joining us today. My name is Alex, and I am the facilitator today. I am a white woman with long brown hair that is streaked with silver, and I’m wearing black-rimmed glasses and a black sweater. My role today is to moderate the conversation between the participants and commissioners at the CRTC about the user experience of video relay service, or VRS. Before we begin, I want to acknowledge that I am joining this call with gratitude from the unceded ancestral territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe nation. I recognize that many of you are in different locations and therefore may be in different traditional indigenous territories. I invite you to take a moment to reflect in gratitude and pay tribute to the elders wherever you are. I’d like to give our participants an opportunity to introduce themselves. How about we start with Jeff?
Jeffrey Beatty: Thank you, Alex. So, I'm Jeff Beatty. I'm a technical consultant for the Deaf Wireless Community of Canada. I would like to share that DWCC appreciates your invitation to participate today. We’re coming from across Canada, and before I begin, I would like to acknowledge the land that I'm on. We are, from coast to coast we recognize that the land belongs to First Nations and Metis people that are still present today in their homeland, and I would like to congratulate the new CEO and various commissioners. I very much look forward to working with you following up on the CRTC -- from the 2019 determinations --
Interpreter: Just up with moment for the interpreter.
Jeffrey Beatty: So, the policy coming from 2019, the follow through with the CRTC's activities and decisions pertaining to accessibility. For the truth and reconciliation, I would like to pass it over to Paula to share some of her particular perspective.
Interpreter: Just one moment while the interpreter switches.
Alex Keenan: Thank you, Jeff, and I’ll just comment that at this time we’re just doing introductions. We will get into your comments in a moment after we’ve gotten a chance to get to know each of our participants and our commissioners. Thank you. So, yes, I’ll invite Paula to introduce herself next.
Paula Wesley: Hello. Before I start, I’d just like to give a visual description. I'm wearing plum glasses. I've got wavy hair. I'm sitting in front of a blue background with a colored headband on. I'm wearing a white top. My name is Paula Wesley. This is my sign name. I’d like to echo the thanks for having us today. I am a citizen of the Stolo nation and the Tsimshian first nation. I'm an indigenous consultant, and I have been for quite some time working with a various number of agencies and organizations, and I'm also an advocate for indigenous sign language. I have used VRS services since about January 11, 2017, and that’s it for my introduction. Thank you very much.
Alex Keenan: It’s nice to meet you, Paula, and Darryl, would you like to go next?
Darryl Hackett: Hello, everyone. Good afternoon. I'm a male, and I would like to express my gratitude for having us participate in this important session today. My name is Darryl Hackett. This is my sign name. I'm looking forward to sharing some of our feedback and comments on three particular areas and answering any questions that you may have. Thank you again.
Alex Keenan: Thank you, Darryl, and it’s nice to meet you. I will invite our commissioners to introduce themselves, beginning with Nirmala.
Nirmala: Hello. My name is Nirmala. Sorry, I did that really well the first few times, but I messed myself up there. Anyway, it is, thank you so much for being here today. It is a true pleasure to meet all of you, and we’ve really enjoyed first-hand accounts from all the people who were able to talk to us over the last few days. It’s been incredible insight, and I’m looking forward to continuing the conversation with all of you, as well. Thank you.
Alex Keenan: Thank you, Nirmala. I’ll invite Alicia to introduce yourself.
Alicia: Thank you. Hello. My name is Alicia. I'm the vice chair broadcasting at the CRTC. I'm a woman with long dark hair. I am wearing a dark blue jacket with some colorful appliques, and I am joining us from Montreal, Quebec today. I really appreciate your participation in this process, and I'm looking forward to hearing your comments. Thank you.
Alex Keenan: Thank you, Alicia, and finally, Joanne.
Joanne: Hello. My name is Joanne, and I am a white woman with short blonde hair. I'm wearing glasses with red rims and a red turtleneck sweater with a black cardigan, and I'm speaking to you today from a small city north of Saskatoon in Saskatchewan. It's called Warman, and I am the commissioner for Saskatchewan and Manitoba, and I have really appreciated the lived experience of the users of this service and look forward to what you have to say to us today. Thank you.
Alex Keenan: Thank you, Joanne.
With that, we will get started on the substantive part of this conversation. So, our first topic for discussion is your experience using VRS, and I’ll ask you to share about three different things. The first thing is aspects or the features of the service that have worked well for you, the second is any problems or challenges that you've had using VRS, and the third is your suggestions for improvement. Is there someone who would like to begin sharing your experiences using the service? Yes, Jeff?
Jeffrey Beatty: Darryl, would you like to go ahead?
Darryl Hackett: Sure. Thanks, Jeff. I've been using the service for three years now. I was really looking forward to having this service in place. I did a lot of advocacy work leading up to its inception. Over the last three years, I have had some pretty terrible experiences. I did file some interventions regarding my experiences and giving some advisements about Adobe and Adobe Flash, the Adobe Flash plug-in, in particular. I know that it was added to deal with potential security risks, but, and there’s also Microsoft and Google, Firefox, and Mac, and I think there have been successes for all of those. Pardon me.
Interpreter: Pardon me. This is the interpreter’s error. They all announced they would stop supporting the Flash plug-in within two years.
Darryl Hackett: So, there were three years of issues with that. Oftentimes there are disconnections, dropped calls, the video quality is distorted and quite poor. I've noted a number of things throughout my experiences. Mind you, in the last year - -
Interpreter: Sorry, interpreter needs to clarify. One moment, please.
Darryl Hackett: So, I know that there have been changes to use Waterfox browser as a bandaid browser, and I don't know that the success has been far reaching from that.
There are still a number of frustrations and hurdles for the last year and a half. Then there was a new app established for Mac and PC users, and there were a lot of improvements that stemmed from that. However, it’s not entirely user friendly as of yet. I do use the services on a daily basis, both in my person life and work life. I use it a few times, and I would say a few times a week I experience crashes. It also doesn't have a dark mode, which is what I prefer to use. I find it can just help ease eye strain, and it’s a bit easier to see. It also can reduce some of that blue light glare that we get off of devices. I’ve also noted that there’s no app for Chromebook users. There’s nothing available, so it would be really great to have an app for that device. Some good friends of mine who are deaf-blind have shared, so, some good friends of mine who are deaf-blind have shared that the app for both PC and Mac is not the most user friendly for them, nor is it the most accessible for them. They have a hard time navigating the system, and the background color contributes to those difficulties, so I hope that CAV will continue to work on the app and make it more accessible and more user friendly for our communities. Thank you so much.
Alex Keenan: Thank you very much, Darryl. I would like to open it up to our commissioners if you have any follow-up questions or remarks that you would like to make. I'm seeing them shaking their heads no. Alright.
Darryl Hackett: If I may. I have one other thing that I would like to add in, as well. As a deaf Canadian, I was not able to call a deaf business or varying deaf services within the States. I’m unable to place those calls because of the VP. I guess that is due to compatibility issues or something along those lines. I’ll turn it over to Jeff to elaborate on that a bit further.
Jeffrey Beatty: Thank you, Darryl. I can definitely speak to that in some added detail in regard to the tech issues, so the issue is that Canada video relay service platform is not video compatible with the VRS services that they had - -
Interpreter: Sorry, interpreter needs to clarify. Just one moment, please. Sorry, the interpreter needs to clarify, but I'm not sure if Jeff can see me. Just one moment, please.
Jeffrey Beatty: So, the chosen platform with Canada VRS is Evez.
Interpreter: The interpreter may be pronouncing that incorrectly.
Jeffrey Beatty: That video platform is not compatible with VRS6, which is used in the United States. At that time, that was what was being used. So, I had learned, so once CAV had announced they had chosen Evez as the provider, I reached out to an ISP forum and there were six VRS with the FCC, and I wanted to ensure that these platforms were compatible with one another. They had told me at that time that Evez had done some pilot testing but it was determined that it was not compatible with 6VRS, which was a disappointment for me. It was quite disappointing to learn that. So, just saying that the, they chose Evez anyway and decided not to make any changes from that, and I can speak to that in a bit further detail maybe in a follow-up question, just getting into some of the more technological aspect of those issues.
Interpreters: The interpreters are just going to switch. Okay. We’re good to continue.
Alex Keenan: Okay. Thank you.
Darryl Hackett: I think Paula might be up next.
Alex Keenan: Yes.
Paula Wesley: Thank you. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you, Darryl, for your comments. First, when I established my VRS account for my iPhone, I had an iPhone at that time, and it was a bit of a struggle because I wasn’t sure where to start, you know, in terms of what app to use or which browser, so I tried Firefox. That wasn’t supported, and I was later recommended to use Waterfox, which I had to download. We didn’t have Chrome back there in 2017, but, yeah, the compatibility was a challenge because of some internal app design technology that wasn’t compatible with the browsers I had. So, I got Waterfox and it worked from then on, but it would be nice if they had given us more detailed instructions on how to download, which browser to use. Yeah, I'm from a small town. I live in the north, northern BC, and so information via networking is not readily available to me. A friend told me about it, and I, from that point forward I had to navigate myself basically. Now, it’s great that I can now use sign language, but installing the app and using it was tough. This needs to be a consideration for people who live in remote and isolated communities that might not have access to the kind of information shared in bigger cities. Another experience I had, which was a bit of a struggle, is that the orientation of the phone. Sometimes the video gets flipped based on whether I have it in landscape or portrait mode, so I’ll have it in landscape mode, you know, put the phone on its side, and it clips the video so my interpreter is quite small, awkwardly cut and hard to see. So, I think that the, there needs to be some kind of technical solution on the end where when the phone is flipped into landscape mode it fills the whole length of the phone instead of being clipped into a little square. So I think that CAV needs to be considering all of the different kinds of phones when developing their app because when it crops my interpreter to be very small, it’s hard for me to see, and that’s how I access the language and to have a full screen. Now, another issue I've experienced is racism and racist attitudes and behaviors with interpreters. Based on my appearance, if I present as indigenous, I notice a different attitude from the interpreters who I work with compared to when I wear typical clothes and am not identifiable as an indigenous person, and I feel that’s offensive and a form of discrimination, and I've noticed, as well, that interpreters may often opt to gate keep, filter out my communication to interpret or not interpret what I say, and tat feels disrespectful to my culture and my identity. I have noticed there’s similar comments from IBPOC people, finding interpreters who will match the cultural and linguistic features of the way they express themselves, that there is not enough representation culturally. It’s really important that no one feels marginalized or no one finds that their commentary and expression is in any way altered or reduced because of the interpreter’s attitude towards race, and that’s all that I had to say. Thank you.
Alex Keenan: Thank you, Paula. Jeff, I see that your hand is up. I do want to see if any of our commissioners have any follow-up questions or remarks in relation to what you’ve all just shared with us. Okay. I'm seeing them shaking their heads no. So, Jeff, is there something you wanted to add?
Jeffrey Beatty: Yes. I’d like you to imagine I'm a dual citizen, Canadian and American, I lived in, I live in Colorado, and I am a S.T.E.M. teacher. I teach math and sciences at a high school level, and often I must contact students’ parents, so I use video relay service on a daily basis in the States. I have -- I have to contact approximately 160 students’ parents for various reasons. Now, it was great to participate in a Bell study group to help identify platform issues because there are issues with Canada VRS used on Android, so I would suggest, so CAV is administering this platform and it is unique. It’s not the same as the one the States uses, and in a way it’s good to have something that is strictly Canadian. Now, the Apple development team for cellular accessibility, I was heavily involved in this.
Alex Keenan: So, sorry, if I can just jump in. I do appreciate, Jeff, that you have technical expertise. I want to make sure that we are staying on track with user experience and not getting into the technical details of the way that the platform is developed.
Jeffrey Beatty: Okay. I'm leading to that if you will bear with me.
Alex Keenan: Okay.
Jeffrey Beatty: Yes. That's what I was going to mention next. To do with, I'm disappointed with the quality of the platform. The video card size in Canada is 4:3 ratio, and it should in fact be 16:9 ratio for users who need to access it on screens of a relevant size. So, the 4:3 video ratio, which is what we currently have, is disappointing. A 16:9 ratio accommodates a landscape screen if a phone is placed in that position, and most deaf people will say that they prefer that ratio. The reasons for this is that to do with speed and resolution. If there are 720 x 1080 pixels and if you’re using 5G internet this would be the most appropriate one, so this is one we should pursue. Now, in terms of my experience, I am limited in my use and access to conference calls, and that impedes on our freedom to communicate. We’ve been limited in our participation in conference calls of 1.5 hours, by policy. It used to be 2 hours, and it’s since been reduced. This is not equitable because my hearing nondeaf colleagues can participate for the full length of the meeting, and I am only able to participate for the first 1.5 hours, which I feel is not appropriate. I want to be included in my workplace, and restricting my participation in meetings is not acceptable.
It feels that the importance of our participation in meetings is being disrespected. For example, we need to remove the limit on conference call lengths to one that’s more appropriate, be it 2 hours or as long as it takes. Sue Decker was the one who ultimately made that decision, to limit conference calls to 1.5 hours. Then it was during the working group for CRTC 911.
So, CRTC 2017, 187’s policy, paragraph 184, reads, the commissioner expects that a person with a disability be consulted during the development of 911 to confirm that we need to consider in the design of the service that it should, that our needs are considered in the development and design of the service. The individuals involved in the working group of the development of NG911 service, that we participate in CISC - -
Alex Keenan: I think we are getting off topic here, and so I’d like to move on to the next topic that we have. I think this might be a conversation for a different day, unfortunately, Jeff.
Jeffrey Beatty: Okay, that's fine. No problem.
Alex Keenan: Thank you. All right. So, our next topic is your experiences with VRS customer service. So, any positive or negative experiences that you've had and any suggestions for improvement of the customer service portion of VRS?
Darryl Hackett: Darryl here. I'm good to answer that. Am I good to go?
Alex Keenan: Yes, please.
Darryl Hackett: Okay, thank you. Thank you, moderator. For 3-1/2 years, I have been accessing VRS’s customer service. Now, Canada has more than 30 years, or I have, sorry, more than 30 years of experience in IT, and the people who work at customer service are not adequately skilled, to be frank. They’re not technical experts, they've demonstrated terrible attitudes, they are not good at building relationships with customers based on my observation. I did a test with several of the customer service representatives, and I wanted to see their level of expertise with the technology that they were working with. So, I would contact them to see how they would solve various issues that were presented, and I was disappointed that, unfortunately, all of their responses were incorrect. This leads me to believe they don’t have the proper technical expertise. Now, after my years of using Canada VRS, I have noticed drastic improvement, so the people now compared to in the past who work at customer service demonstrate more professionalism, more knowledge in technical issues, and overall their attitudes and professionalism have drastically improved, and their relationship in relating to customers is great. The one problem that I think I'll mention is that the first day of - -
Interpreter: Just one moment for the interpreter to clarify.
Darryl Hackett: When VRS was established, the first day that it operated, from then until now, when there is an outage, when there is a call dropped, when there is something that goes wrong, CAV is not great at letting the community know that there has been a crash or an outage. They do have a Facebook page, and I think this is an opportunity for them to give real time updates about outages and crashes. So, the deaf community who experiences these are often unclear whether it is their individual device or whether it is a crash of the CAV’s VRS system. So, a suggestion I would make would be that going forward, there be public dissemination of information if there is an outage, if there is any kind of crash or interruption to service and also for them to provide an estimate of how long it will take to have the system up and running again. I believe that that kind of communication improvement will result in an improvement in relationships and an improvement in our management of the technology. I know they have a lot on their plates, and it’s important to know where the problems are originating from, if it’s from the user’s device or from CAV. So, I think this, if this recommendation can be passed to CAV, this will improve their relationship with the deaf users of their service. Thank you very much.
Alex Keenan: Thank you very much, Darryl. Paula, I understand you also wanted to comment on the customer service at VRS?
Paula Wesley: Sure, I will. So, my experience with interpreters, well, sometimes I’ll make a call and opt to provide a number instead of my name. Now, I have the interpreter on screen, on my app, and oftentimes I will want to capture some information before I've forgotten it, so - - -
Interpreter: Just one moment while the interpreter clarifies - -
Paula Wesley: - - so sometimes I will try to capture information from the text box. I’ll have to, it’s often hidden, and I’ll have to open it to get information about the interpreter's name and number, but the text box is often hidden, and I have a hard time finding it because if I want to capture information to follow up later, I need to be able to easily access that text box to capture the information, be it the interpreter’s ID number or other information, but what happens is the call is sometimes disconnected before I have the chance to open that text box and copy that information, so I think it either needs to be saved or some other solution needs to be provided so that I can capture information as needed. I'm not comfortable calling customer service myself because sometimes it can be quite time consuming and they’ll transfer me to someone else before I've finished. Now, if I have feedback about an interpreter, it doesn't feel like the right place to call because they typically provide technical support. They’re not necessarily addressing the quality of the interpretation. So, my suggestion would be to separate, to have a team contact to contact if you have feedback related to the quality of an interpreter's service, and a separate for technical support that is not the Evez platform, which is not our platform of choice. So, interpreters who work for Canada VRS need the amount of experience, skill, and expertise to be able to provide service. They must follow a code of ethics which maintains confidentiality of information that is shared, and they need to treat customers with respect. I support and value our interpreters because they are our lifeline. If there were no interpreters we would have no access to a nondeaf world with sign language, and TTY is limited in that it uses English, which is not our first language, so I feel very grateful for the presence of interpreters and VRS so we have access in our preferred language and has allowed barriers to be reduced and us to be given greater access to the world at large. So, that’s the thoughts I want to express on behalf of the deaf community.
Interpreter: Just one moment while the interpreters switch.
Alex Keenan: Thank you for those comments, Paula. Any of our commissioners, do you have any follow-up questions or any remarks that you would like to make in response? I'm seeing them all shaking their head, no. All right. So, we can move on to our next topic, which is your experience using VRS to contact 911. So, for those of you who have used VRS to contact 911, we’d like to hear about what that experience is like and how you would like to see it improve. Jeff, I see you have your hand up.
Jeffrey Beatty: Thank you. I do have experience with calling 911. I was getting a narrative, somebody was reporting making a report that was shared to DWCC, our committee. This was somebody else's experience about using VRS for 911 services, so just sharing that anecdote. From a technological perspective, there are some concerns. This individual had shared that there was an unknown external person in the apartment area, so they had placed a call to emergency services using video relay service. They were using their laptop to conduct that call. It was a very perplexing experience for this individual because fortunately this deaf person was able to lip read the interpreter and they caught the interpreter in the act of sharing their address. If somebody is visiting another province or another area, for example, there is often that centralized 911 number. Sometimes it takes 3 minutes to update one's locale through video relay service to give the correct location, so this was a firsthand experience just about the delays in transferring to 911 services.
They are calling northern 911. They found the local dispatchers office, and there was discussion as to which type of emergency services were required. Paramedics arrived on scene, and the VRS interpreter did remain on the line. The paramedic was questioning the deaf individual and had hung up, but the interpreter remained on the line for a few additional minutes with the paramedic. I just want to say that was so phenomenal and so appreciated. The one downside was just the delays in getting services there. The platform app on a laptop should have some sort of better built-in geo location information that may help with just saving some of this time when all of that is being shared with the dispatcher. So, my suggestion that I would bring forward would be, you know, mobile devices do have GPS options, so can that not be installed for laptop users, as well, for geo location purposes? For example, if you are looking at Apple map on a laptop, it can trace my location, so that’s just an example of some of the options out there that are available. I think it would be nice to have something like that incorporated. Like I said, the mobile version is fantastic. It’s got GPS. No issue whatsoever guaranteed, but I do have some concerns if someone is accessing 911 through a laptop just for time's sake. So, yeah, I am concerned in that regard when it comes to northern 911.
Interpreter: The interpreter needs to clarify. One moment, please.
Jeffrey Beatty: So as I was saying, video relay services in the north, it’s an isolated area. It’s quite remote. There needs to be some additional work done for accessibility, especially when it comes to our indigenous populations living in the north. I think that that is definitely a focal point, a priority area that needs to be addressed, so that’s what I wanted to share. Yeah.
Alex Keenan: Thank so you much, Jeff, for passing along that experience. Darryl, yes? Over to you.
Darryl Hackett: I do have experience calling 911, as well. Many years ago, a friend of mine had gone over to the Rideau Canal. We were just behind the Chateau Laurier, which is, as you know, a hotel here that’s right alongside of Parliament Hill, and what had happened was that I completely collapsed and I required immediate assistance. My friend that I was with called 911 through VRS, and they had a really difficult time connecting due to poor signal, so they had to remove themselves from where I was and go stand in another location with a better signal. So, they placed the call again, and it was quite a weak connection, and the video quality was quite poor, as well, so the person was having to physically maneuver and find a place where they could get a better connection. They were about a kilometer away on Rideau Street where they were finally able to connect and proceed with the call to 911. They had much better video quality there, and the call was able to proceed, but it was difficult for us and for the interpreter. So, I decided to go ahead and just cancel emergency services because we had found another friend that was able to come and pick me up and bring me back home. So, just as Jeff had mentioned, there needs to be a stronger GPS connection or identification of where someone is located. It needs to be enhanced and strengthened. If you are below street level, the signal is not the best and you’re not able to make the call. It doesn’t matter if it’s a clear sky or what. So, I do think it would be of benefit to have better wireless signal and services available, and I think that needs to be applied to all devices regardless if you’re calling using your mobile or you’re calling on a tablet or a laptop that would be a critical piece to consider, and thank you. Thank you again just for your questions today.
Alex Keenan: Alright. Thank you very much, Darryl. I see your hand up there, Jeff. Joanne did have her hand up. I think she wants to ask a question or respond, and I will note we only have five more minutes left in our session. Go ahead, Joanne.
Joanne: Thank you. The question I had was for Paula. I'm not sure it’s entirely on point with our discussion today, but I am interested, you have said several times you appreciate being able to interact and get interpretation in the language of your choice, and I'm wondering if there are indigenous interpreters who are available for those who might feel more comfortable with indigenous languages. I'm not sure how that meshes, but just a brief comment on what’s happening in that realm. I know there is a lot in supporting indigenous languages. I'm just wondering if it is making the leap into sign language.
Paula Wesley: Thank you, Joanne. I really appreciate that question, and, yeah, I did want to bring that up. So, this is a great segue to something that I've been reflecting on, as well. There are a few indigenous interpreters, as far as I know. There are three officially. Two indigenous interpreters in British Columbia. I'm not sure if they work in the VRS realm providing this type of service. There is one other indigenous interpreters based in Ontario. Again, I'm not sure if they provide video relay services. I think there are three other indigenous practitioners in the Maritimes, in eastern Canada. I just found this out recently that there are six, and mind you that is an incredibly small ratio if you take into consideration all of those nonindigenous interpreters, so we definitely need to enhance diversity as a whole, interpreters of color, black interpreters, indigenous, and so you were saying that if I would prefer to work with an indigenous interpreter, it would be nice. Like, sometimes when I introduce myself and introduce where I'm from, I'm not even sure the interpreters are going to understand that and so I need to spell it out to them. I'm from the Tsimshian first nation because they’re not familiar with the sign, or I’ll have to spell it out I’m from Stolo nation because again they’re not familiar with that context. Many indigenous callers don't realize that the interpreters is not understanding the nuances of their name or their locale or these cultural nuances. They’re just going ahead and signing, and so there needs to be some sort of way to establish better rapport and, you know, based on the individual’s needs, and I think enhancing diversity would be one strategy. It would be nice to take training in diversity for video interpreters. Cultural skillsets in order to work with varying groups. I don’t know if there are some workshops available that could be provided, but I think there would be some way for them to meet with deaf indigenous groups and learn, you know, how it is that they sign certain things and then maybe develop resources from that for the VI pool. I would just really like to see, I guess if I can, my recommendation would be to see more warmness and friendliness from our interpreters. Oftentimes many of them are quite cold. It seems like I don't know if they are behaving that way based on how I look or how I identify or they’re just not understanding. I'm not sure, but it would be nice to just have some more warmth expressed from our interpreters, and I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts, commissioner, on that. Thank you.
Alex Keenan: Alright. Thank you very much, Paula. Unfortunately, we are at the end of our time now.
So, I want to share with you briefly what you can expect to come next, and I want to thank you for taking the time to speak with us, to share your lived experiences, your perspectives so that the CRTC can take this information back as they continue to work on this service.
So, once we wrap up here today, some captions will be added to the videos, and they will be shared on the CRTC's YouTube channel. You will be notified. You’ll be able to watch them there, and a new phase will be introduced to the VRS review so that you can comment on the videos, and when I say comment, you’ll be able to comment on the content of the videos, including any interpretation of the remarks that you made. Do you have any questions about that? Yes, Darryl?
Darryl Hackett: I believe that Jeff was saying, as well, that he did have a few more comments to share. I know that we are out of time. It’s the top of the hour, so I’m just wondering if there is any way that we could continue for a few more moments or perhaps we could submit an e-mail with those additional comments that we haven't shared as of yet.
Alex Keenan: Unfortunately, we are out of time. We are under constraints, and I can't make an exception for this.
Darryl Hackett: I understand that. That’s not a problem. No problem whatsoever. May I submit them via e-mail, though? Would that be an alternate means?
Alex Keenan: To my knowledge, no. The time for submissions is done, and I'm very sorry. That’s out of my hands, but you will have an opportunity to clarify anything on the videos that, you know, that has been discussed here today. Yes, Jeff?
Jeffrey Beatty: Very, very briefly, I did want to say with the previous CRTC hearings I was quite disappointed, but I very much appreciate ….
This video is the recording of the virtual discussion sessions that took place on January 24, 2023 with three CRTC Commissioners and:
Session 1: Members of the Ontario VRS Coalition
Session 2: Members of the Deaf Wireless Canada Committee
The purpose of the virtual discussion sessions was to ensure VRS users have a fulsome opportunity to communicate their experience with using the service with CRTC Commissioners. The discussions focused on the lived experiences of people who use VRS with the objective of understanding their needs, how the service is and is not meeting those needs, and how it can be improved.
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