ASL – Virtual Discussion Session related to VRS Review (Day 2) – 3 of 4
Video Transcript
Session 1: Members of the Canadian Association of the Deaf
Eileen: Welcome. Before I begin, I acknowledge that I'm joining this call from the traditional ancestral unceded territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh nations. I recognize that others have joined virtually from different locations and therefore are in different traditional indigenous territories. I invite you to take a moment and reflect in gratitude and pay tribute to the elders wherever you are.
Thank you so much for joining today. My name is Eileen. My pronouns are she/her and elle. I'm a woman with long brown hair, and I'm wearing a blue-colored shirt. I will be your facilitator for the session.
We have three commissioners from the CRTC joining us today, and I will invite each of them to introduce themselves, and we will spotlight them when we are introducing them. So, we will start with Alicia.
Alicia: Thank you, Eileen. Good afternoon, Anna and Richard. My name is Alicia. I am a woman, long black hair. I'm wearing a red jacket, and I am speaking to you from Montreal. I look forward to our discussion this afternoon. Thank you.
Eileen: Thank you, Alicia. We are now going to invite Nirmala to introduce herself.
Nirmala: Hello. My name is Nirmala. Thank you so much for taking part today. I am a woman of South Asian descent. I have long dark brown hair, and I'm wearing a purple blouse today, and I’m looking forward to chatting with you over the next hour. Thank you so much for being here.
Eileen: Thank you, Nirmala. We will now invite Joanne to introduce herself.
Joanne: Hello. My name is Joanne. I am a woman with short blondish hair. I have red-rimmed glasses, and in honor of the day, I'm wearing a bright orange sweater with a white shirt underneath it. So, I look forward to our conversation today.
Eileen: Thank you so much, Joanne. Now we invite each of you to introduce yourselves. If Anna, would you be able to introduce yourself, please?
Anna Wren: Sure, absolutely. Hi, my name is Anna, and this is my sign name like this for the interpreter purposes. I am a woman. I am a white Caucasian woman, and I have curly long brown hair, and I'm wearing a black turtleneck today, and I'm happy to be here to have this discussion in regard to my experiences using VRS.
Eileen: Thank you, Anna. Richard.
Richard Belzile: Yes, hi. My name is Richard Belzile. I am the Executive Director of the Canadian Association of the Deaf, and I am a tall white man who has no hair. I'm Canadian descent, and I identify as gay as well as, sorry, for the interpreter, and just to identify, as well, that even though an interpreter is female and using a female voice, I am male and my chosen pronouns are he, him and they, so I just wanted to make sure that anyone who is listening in, I am a male even though you’re hearing a female voice for the interpretation. Thank you, and thank you for inviting us today.
Eileen: Thank you, and I really appreciate everyone's thorough explanations so that we all get to know one another. It is a delightful environment to work in here, and we’re looking forward to proceeding.
So, we're going to cover three questions. We're interested in your experience using VRS, we’re also interested in your experience with VRS customer service, we’re interested in if you or any of your colleagues have experience using VRS to contact 911 and getting some feedback on that, and then if we have time at the end, then we would field any other feedback or comments on anything dealing with the VRS service.
So, the first area of discussion is your experience using VRS, so we’re interested in what aspects or features of the service that have worked really well for you, hat challenges and problems have you encountered using VRS, and what we're really looking for is suggestions for improvement. So, first of all, you know, what works well, challenges, suggestions of improvement. Richard? Did you have a question, Richard? Oh, you know what, James, hang on a second, James, I believe you're muted.
Interpreter: Yes, I was just telling the interpreter that I could see them. They were just confirming that they could see me both.
Eileen: Oh, perfect. Great. Excellent. Alright. So, now that we were highlighting Richard, would you like to go answer this question, first?
Richard Belzile: Sure, I’ll be happy to. I've had quite a bit of extensive experience in using the VRS. There have been many times where I would have preferred to have used a Zoom platform and captioning transcription that’s available on Zoom. When I look at and compare that to the VRS, one negative, or what we could say is a con, is that I can't see the person who I'm communicating with. Deaf people are very used to facial grammar, facial expressions., the entire expression of ASL. I understand that the interpreter is bridging the communication between the two parties on the VRS call, but to be able to see that the communication is accurate, that message equivalency is there inherent to the call, the interpretation is correct, the ability to be able to see the other party's face on the call, would give me that equivalency confirmation. Now, all things aside, today with the different options that are available on platforms such as Zoom, e-mail, texting, face timing, voice apps that you can do voice to text, all those varying plethoras of platforms are options that are better for me to limit my communication but to just use the VRS platform limits me in my ability, and it’s actually not a preference of mine to use.
That being said, I was educated in Canada. As the Executive Director of the Canadian Association of the Deaf, rather. Sorry, that was an interpreter error. I really think about, you know, what we want to be able to set up a working phone number. I would like to be able to have that as a deaf person being able to answer that phone. I don’t need a hearing recipient. Yes, I’m sorry. I'm trying to spell out the word. A hearing receptionist, rather. I don't need that, but I would like to have someone that I can showcase as a deaf person that we have deaf workers in our environment and that they can use the VRS number to communicate. However, I can't do that with the VRS platform as it sits today. I can, however, use my private phone number, transfer the call to my work number, as I forward it to that number, but then to have that display on screen, on the web, on a business card, or whatever have you, it just so happens that over time, if I quit or retire or exit the Canadian Association of the Deaf, that phone number, that work phone number, goes with me. It doesn't stay with where I'm working. So, you know, the business is set up in such a way that the number's always there and that that number is going to continue to be in use for advertising, for showcasing, but I can't do it that way with the current VRS system.
To be honest, the only, well, there are many deaf businesses out there, and none of them have the ability to be able to do that as I just described.
Eileen: Thank you, Richard. Are there any clarifying questions from the commissioners? Just making sure that was clear for each of you.
Alicia, I will spotlight you. Go ahead.
Alicia: Thank you. Thank you, Richard. I just want to make sure I understand. So, right now you're able to transfer your VRS telephone number or call to your work number so that you can make use of the VRS service while, while at work? Is that what you’re saying?
Richard Belzile: No. Let me clarify. You‘re close. You're close. So, on VRS, I have a user agreement with CAV. I have downloaded that agreement, so I have a working agreement with the VRS, of course. Personally, I have to say that as a deaf person, a hard of hearing person, and using sign language for my modes of communication, using the phone, that's not a problem. That's not the issue. What the issue is is that VRS in turn will give me a private phone number, which is exclusive to me. It’s my personal VRS number. However, I don't want to have to -- how can I put it? Never mind. Supposing, for example, if I get a job, say as a salesperson in company ABC, what have you, and I want to use a work number at that location, I can tell the VRS that I want to separate or delineate the phone numbers to have two phone numbers. One as a personal number, the other as a work number. However, I can use that work number and advertise my business, and I’ll put it on my business cards when I develop resumes, whatever have you, I can use that work number, but if I ever quit that position in that particular company and exit that company, that phone number that’s on the resume or on the business cards what have you ends up going with me wherever I go. It follows me. Now, that’s one scenario. Now, that business cannot use that phone number. It can’t say, hey, I want to use that phone number for our business since we've been using it, since you've been working for us, using it on VRS. The VRS system says, you're not a deaf person. You're a business, and that is not a number that can you use, so we can’t get that in a private number from the VRS. See, that’s a limitation. So, no business, no government person, in Canada, can get a phone number, a VRS phone number. It’s not the same as a hearing person who, you know, uses the phone. It’s limiting, you know, when you look at personal, government and business phone use, but in VRS it’s only a deaf person who can use that phone number. So, just remember, though, as I’ve mentioned all of this, that there is another issue that comes to the floor. Deaf people can't call interpreters. Interpreters can't get VRS phone calls.
They’re hearing. They can't get a VRS phone number. So, if I want to schedule and make an appointment and work things out that I need to book an interpreter, I’ve got to go around the back end by using an e-mail or contacting that interpreter by VRS system. I can't call them peer to peer, point to point. I have to go around the corner, as it were. My parents, my children can sign. They’re fluent signers, but in order to, even though they’re hearing, they can't get an assigned VRS number so I can call them point to point, so we resort to Zoom, we resort to Facebook, face time messenger. We can't use the VRS phone system or the phone with them. It’s a limiting factor.
Alicia: I understand. Thank you. Thank you for clarification, Richard. Appreciate it.
Eileen: Thank you, Richard, and thank you, Alicia, for that clarification. Really important. Let's shift our, over to Anna and get a little bit of feedback on your experiences, Anna, please.
Anna Wren: Sure. I’d be happy to. So, first of all I want to emphasize that I really appreciate having this opportunity and having that VRS service available for us as a deaf community, but I do notice that there are, you know, ways to improve, of course, and I think one of the large key issues or concerns that I have as a person who uses the VRS system is the public education and public knowledge about VRS services that are available in Canada. A lot of people don't know that we have a VRS service that the deaf people can use and, you know, there has to be education, dissemination, public awareness made, outreach note, you know, so that businesses, small businesses, maybe don't realize that it’s available or that it can be utilized, and there might be some confusion as to when they call us, so, like we can't call out, and so one point and one situation that I personally need to experience and manage is when I call the bank and use VRS to do so. So, if I need to resolve an issue with my banking or whatever have you, I call the bank and we work through it. The VRS doesn't know who we are. I can't talk to them. I can't talk to them on my, they can't interpret what I'm saying, you know, so of course when I make a phone call and want to speak to a manager or escalate a situation for a manager to talk to me, they have to talk to me through VRS and we have to have a meeting that might take 6 or 8 hours to figure this out or a situation over a few days to get an approval, and then I'm talking to the bank about my financial situation. It could take 8 hours to do that, and, you know, the VRS makes my situation a lot less complicated, but we’re talking with a big large financial institution that they don't know the functionality and the reason for the use of VRS, and yet today, every time I call that bank, I still have to say, hang on, I’ve got to get an approval from my manager to be able to talk to you through the VRS and using a sign language interpreter every time. It’s not just the bank, but we’re talking government offices, agencies you call. Wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. I’ve got to go to my, my manager to get approval to be able to talk to you, and that’s very frustrating because that takes up time. You know, as a hearing person, if I were to call, I’d have my situation resolved in 5 minutes, but to take 8 hours to resolve my situation and finally talk about my issues because there’s this hiccup about using a third party in the call, I think there needs to be more recognition of the VRS system as way and as a resource that we need to use and not have to be scammed or, you know, and being able to take advantage of the service that’s being provided to connect us to the community, but I don't think people realize that, especially with banks and government that don't realize that, what’s the purpose of the use of the VRS service, and that’s a problem that seems to surface and is a challenge from time to time, and, you know, with more outreach, more awareness, the word will get out there, and it’s difficult to educate because there are so many out there and so few of us, but it’s something that needs to be resolved because the users, that's one of the largest frustrations that they experience and the challenges that they face in using the VRS service.
Eileen: Thank you, Anna. That’s very enlightening. Are there any clarifying questions from any of the commissioners? I think you expressed that very clearly. We’re getting lots of nodding heads. Appreciate that. Back over to Richard. Do you have additional feedback on your experiences?
Richard Belzile: No, no, I don't. I think she covered it very well. Thank you, Anna.
Eileen: Anna, are there other areas you would like to cover in terms of your experience with VRS?
Anna Wren: Sure. I have a list of things that I jotted down. Some of them might be, you know, good. Some of them might be frustrating. For example, I don't know if I'm in error, but I can't copy and paste from the internet onto to the phone call. I have to look, memorize the number, and physically enter in that number. That’s a bit of a struggle. So, that’s not seamless. If I phone a number on my cell phone, I can copy and paste it easily from my cell phone. That's nice to be able to do that, but that’s one functionality that I see that would be a nice feature to have. It should be more user friendly.
Call drops. When I call drop because of the internet or a problem, whatever have you, the interpreter will call me back that I do know in the VRS service, but if the call drops for more than 5 minutes and I'm ready to make the call, they might be already on another call, or if I try to call back and reconnect with the same interpreter that I was on before the call dropped because they knew what was going on on that call, I can't be able to reconnect with that particular interpreter and I have to start my communication from scratch all over again with a new interpreter, give them the background, context, situation, and I would like to be able to have that option to be able to reconnect with the original interpreter if the call drops and then I have the ability to call that interpreter back and continue the conversation. That would be a nice feature to have.
Terms and conditions. We accept the user agreement. It’s not in ASL. It’s only in English at the moment. It should be provided in ASL so that people who are more ASL and LSQ proficient users, maybe not English proficient, have the ability to read and understand the terms of conditions in their own preferred language. Sometimes we have contract interpreters that are outsourced, and that's quite all right, but often times interpreters don’t have the current knowledge of a particular point in Canada. You know, if they get an American interpreter and colloquialisms, vernaculars, context, and we have to do a bit of coaching, explaining, and that interrupts the flow and ebb of the communication flow on the call, so I think there’s some improvements that can be made there, as well.
What else have I got? We can talk about the platform for a bit. Sometimes I find the platform glitchy. It doesn't want to work. I've got to shut down, reboot and get it up and running again or sometimes it won't even work at all. If I make a call and make a complaint I get the call resolved but it’s not always easy to do that.
Also, strangely enough -- oh, I’m sorry, you wanted to say something?
Eileen: Did we want to switch interpreters? I see Courtney is on deck.
Interpreter: Oh, is it time already? Okay, we will switch interpreters now.
Anna Wren: Just give me one second. I just need to pin the new interpreter that came on screen. Okay, perfect. Yep. Am I good to continue?
Eileen: Please.
Anna Wren: Okay, so another example, too, is the platform like I just mentioned is glitchy, and I know that there are other users who have that, who, like, for example, if you use voicemail and you’re going to leave a message and perhaps for some reason the platform isn't working and not getting the voicemail come through or the video message to come through clearly, there’s other things and I'm just not sure how to fix that. I have informed customer service that this has been an issue and have made that complaint made, so I’d just like to see the platform for some of the user issues that come up to be rectified, as well, because, again, I have noticed the platform itself has been glitchy.
I think that pretty much covers all of the issues I've had, but overall as a user it has been good.
Richard Belzile: I just want to jump in here. I have two things. You actually made me think of something, actually, so, the app is Canadian, obviously, and I remember the phones, everything got downloaded within that system, but as a deaf person who wants to call, for example to another country, over to Europe, to the United States, they do have their own VRS systems, as well, and the system isn't recognizable that this is a deaf person who is calling through, and as a deaf person I’m trying to get, again, trying to go through that and navigate that system, that the VRS only accepts the fact this I'm a deaf Canadian who is calling and then will then proceed with the call, even though if I'm trying to make an international call.
So, I have the system as well. So, I can see on the screen there’s a deaf person, a deaf person going point to point, and I'm not, for example, calling the States but – I’m just trying to think here – okay, if, trying to think of an example here. Let me try a different kind of concern. So, let’s say I was calling a deaf person in the United States and I wasn't able to reach them. I can then go back through and use VRS as the interpreter to try to reach them differently and use that way, but I’ve tried to do a point to point call with the person so that we're able to have a conversation directly but I’m only able to contact other deaf Canadians. I can't contact other deaf people who live in other countries if I'm doing point to point, and that is another wish I would like to see happen within the system, too, and then the second wish that I would love to see is also for Zoom to be an option. If you’re able to do conference calls with multiple people, and because right now the VRS system, you can only be able to call one person. You're not able to do three-way calls or have conference calls with multiple connection points. We're not able to do that, so that would be a wish for me.
Eileen: Thank you, Richard. Over to the commissioners, are there any clarifying questions that you would like to ask on all of this wealth of knowledge that has been shared with us. Nirmala, let me spotlight you.
Nirmala: Thank you. So, we're get something feedback from staff that I wanted to share. Anna, your story about banking was very compelling. Just simple tasks like that that are made into 8 hour tasks are, I'm sure, extremely frustrating. Apparently CAV has forms that can help to give consent for disclosure for personal information that you can fill out to give an organization permission to use, to use an agent to speak on the behalf of the VRS, so that might be something you might want to look into, and also we understand that CAV recently came to an agreement with TD bank, for example, and they’re accepting VRS calls, so I think it’s promising and worth noting that there is some work being done on that front.
But, saying that, it leads me to ask this question, because there are some, you know, in-roads being made on this front and the fact that users like you haven't been told about them, I have to ask whether you think that upgrades to the system are readily communicated to you as users or if the onus is on you to go and do the research into what’s available on a regular basis.
Anna Wren: I think as a user, I typically try to, I typically learn from other users. That sort of feedback happens within the community, but in regard to exactly what you said about TD Bank, I think that's wonderful. I don't bank with TD. I bank with a different one. I'm hoping that they will also come on board, as well, but, again, when I'm looking at myself as a VRS user, and the bank is then looking at the VI as a third party, this is kind of where the glitches that happen because we're trying to explain that they’re not talking for me, I’m actually talking for myself and it’s just going through the interpretation process, so it’s trying to do that education and explanation, but also knowing that there is a consent form, I wasn't aware of that, but also it would be great, not only seeing the work that’s been done with TD but if that could then also be put out to all of the other banks, as well, or other larger institutions so that everyone is on the same page with that, and also again I just want to say the public education piece. There are so many different people, different organizations, agencies, what have you, institutions, who do not know that this service is actually out there. They don't understand what it is, what it entails and how to use it appropriately.
Eileen: Thank you, Anna. Richard, you have something to add?
Richard Belzile: Yes, I do agree with what Anna had just recently stated. I have seen that form, too, but many deaf people, again, are not familiar with what to do with it, so this is typically what we see again in the community and then again even if they do send the form in, by the time they’re finally able to have it put through whatever process on the other end it could take days. So, again, there are these different shifts and rules and protocols that we need to see happen, and I believe that the government itself can administer those kind of changes in the regulations that have already been put in place and be able to put down, for example, at the federal level that different banking institutions, federally, are able to be able to apply this without having to have these forms initially signed and sent in, that VRS is part of the crowd, like a crowd agency, for example, and that to have this within our own legislation as opposed to trying to educate the deaf users on that end and make sure they are doing that self-advocation piece, that it should be coming on the front end instead because deaf people should not be the ones who are educating the banks on this type of system.
Eileen: Thank you, Richard, and thank you, Nirmala.
We’re going to move on now to focus the conversation now on VRS customer service, so we would like to hear about your, the positive or negative parts of your experience with VRS customer service, as well as any suggestions for improvement. Anna, would you like to go first?
Anna Wren: Sure. I have had to use customer service a few times. One was not too long ago. There was a glitch that was happening within the VRS system, and I was trying to call an interpreter. I ended up having two customers or two users up on the screen, so then one had to disconnect, so I just wanted to make sure that that information was relayed. So, I did fill out that there was this problem so I then tried and called again, and then when I did call again, it was the same thing. I had two pop up on the screen at the same time and I just needed the one, so I wasn't sure again if it was just a malfunction within the system or what was happening. Then, when I did try to contact customer support, they were very understanding, very open, and they just wanted to keep trying again to make sure that everything that would be working, but they didn’t have like a direct solution, so that was a little bit frustrating on my end. They were very supportive, again, and they were very understanding. Another thing, as well, I often have seen is that if there is any type of issues within the system, for the interpreter to be able to say, okay, let's get this message put over to customer service right away. Let's make sure that they are aware that this glitch, this problem did happen. Richard, did you have anything that you wanted to add to that?
Richard Belzile: I love the customer service. I love having that option there. In comparison to other types of customer service provisions, this one here with VRS trumps all, and, again, having the customer service when they respond using sign language is absolutely wonderful, whereas when you think of other customer service systems, typically you are sitting and waiting on hold for sometimes hours for someone to finally respond, but with the VRS customer service they respond right away. They try to navigate through whatever issue is happening and help problem solve that. They have facial expressions, which I love, and I'm able to see that in real time and get that support from them. Sometimes, though, they’re not able to provide solutions to all of the technical issues that do arise, but, again, I just want to put in that the service itself is wonderful. One thing, though, as a wish for possible improvement is, I'm not sure if this is even possible, but is there any way to sell your service to other businesses where they would be able to answer the phones, like, for example, Bell Canada or Amazon or any type of other large companies who really do need VRS, who need to have that sign language support to services right there so that they are able to have that connection and can transfer right over to VRS interpreters. Just something that could work in tandem between the system that we have now but also in the large companies that I just recently mentioned.
It would be wonderful. It would be a great asset for CAV if this was a possibility.
Eileen: Thank you for suggesting that, Richard, and, Anna, I see your hand.
Anna Wren: I just want to add one thing, too, here. For the customer service, yes, it is top notch. They’re very friendly. The experiences that I’ve had with them have been very positive, and it’s great, just like Richard said, that the person who answers knows ASL, which is a wonderful feature for us who is calling, and, again, when you think of other customer services with other large businesses, this one is wonderful, but if you did want to file a complaint, for example, perhaps wanting to use maybe another platform, but, again, -- sorry for the interpreter – I’m just going to clarify – I don’t get an update on my complaint. I’m not sure if the issue has been resolved, I’m not sure if there’s been anything that’s happened on that end. Once I have filed the complaint, then there’s no contact back to see what has then happened with it. That’s one thing I would like to see changed.
Eileen: Thank you, Anna. Any there any clarifying questions from the commissioners? I’m seeing none. Any further thoughts on customer service before we move on to a discussion on 911? Seeing none, okay.
We’re going to shift. The last formal question is on your experience using VRS to contact 911. If you have used it to contact 911, we’d like to know about your experience and how you could see that experience being improved. If you haven't personally but have you feedback from others that we would love to hear that, too. Richard?
Richard Belzile: I have never had to personally contact 911, but, again, working for the Canadian Association of the Deaf I have heard anecdotal responses from other Canadians who have had to use that. One concern that has been raised from one deaf individual is that they weren't able to use their phone because they were not conscious at the time. So, because of that, a hearing person on the 911 receiving end, the 911 operator, or a hearing person had to then call and then there was no interpreter also present at that time to be able to help facilitate that conversation for the deaf person who was regaining consciousness, so, and the issue was really related, obviously, to the deaf person still being able for them to have to use their own 911 ability through their own phone. I'm not sure how to rectify that, given the circumstances, if there is way. So, I know that’s been one issue that’s been raised.
Another issue that I have been made aware of, as well, during COVID, really at the beginning of COVID, there was one deaf individual who ended up having to attend the emergency room in the hospital and then ended up being put into isolation, so he was separated from the interpreter who was onsite and obviously was nervous and not sure what to do. It was only kind of the first few weeks within the pandemic and ended up at that point using VRS as mode of communication to be able to have the conversation with the doctor who was right there present. In the user agreement with VRS, and I’m not sure if everyone is aware, one of the stipulations is that you cannot be present in the same room as the other person and then use VRS services. So, given the time that this occurred and the circumstances, and the deaf individual was begging the hospital to cover the services, as well, because the interpreter ended up proceeding to go ahead and interpret the conversation that ended up needing to happen, but it was very much a special circumstance and is not commonplace. So, I hope I’m not getting the VRS interpreter who went ahead and proceeded to interpret this call in trouble, but I think it was wonderful for them given the unique circumstances and the sensitive nature of it that they proceeded to interpret regardless. Given if we know the Eldridge decision that occurred at the Supreme Court level of Canada that it is necessary and the deaf person's right to have interpreting services for their health needs, so I think given that, I believe the interpreter was okay to proceed and interpret that, and I think that that would be something given the emergency situation that did occur that VRS in that circumstance should be an option for communication.
Eileen: Okay. Thank you. I notice that James has been ready to switch. Can we do a quick switch of interpreters and then we’ll get right back to you, Richard. We good, James? And Richard?
Interpreter: Yes we are.
Eileen: Carry on, Richard.
Richard Belzile: So, can I ask a question then, please?
Eileen: Please, yes.
Richard Belzile: Joanne. Can I ask Joanne a question? I think you had a question earlier?
Eileen: Absolutely, and I see Anna had her hand up, as well. So, we’ll go to Joanne and then we’ll go to Anna. So, Joanne first, let me just spotlight -
Anna Wren: It’s Anna here. I didn't have a question. I was just going to provide some clarifying because I was seeing Joanne’s hand up and I was trying to ask Richard something so I’ll back off. Go ahead, Joanne.
Joanne: Sorry to interrupt the conversation. I wonder, Richard, I think that there is a big issue here with education, and I wonder if your organization is resourced, equipped, or even called upon, to help to train various people. For instance, the basic training for people at the bank, for emergency services personnel, for the customer service or telecom company that needs to know about services in order to provide the best advice for people who are deaf. What has been the interplay between you and some of these other organizations?
Richard Belzile: Well, really we are an advocacy organization. We are quite busy this year and have been recently during the 2019 and getting that Accessible Canada Act passed and many government agencies have been busy, groups have been busy writing their first accessibility plans. You know, you’ve been hearing all about that, and we’ve been contacted about what we can do to provide outreach. We certainly really haven't even had the time to provide the education to everyone about the Canadian Association of the Deaf and the VRS issues.
Really, you know, as I look at it from an advocacy with the CRTC and advocacy with the government agencies, I mean, that's been going well. It’s just that we need to sort of change our game plan. You know, just to provide basic education, I would love to be able to bring in five more staff or 10 more staff and get them doing that outreach and education, but we just don't have those resources at this time. Mostly it’s a funding issue from government that we rely on, and if we had that funding for government we might be able to provide that outgoing and ongoing outreach with different agencies and governments.
Joanne: It seems to me that we at the CRTC are familiar, of course, with the Accessibility Act and have, in fact, had to rise to some of its requirements, so, yes, I understand how that could have been taking up a lot of your time. I hope that perhaps as part of this process there will be a spotlight on the need for education and how that might occur in the most efficient manner possible, so thank you very much.
Eileen: Thank you, Joanne. We are coming towards the end of our time here, so I want to shift to final thoughts, final remarks, as well as if there’s any final clarifying questions from any of the commissioners. So, first to the commissioners, any clarification that you require on your end, and I'm seeing shaking heads so it seems that they’re quite clear on your feedback. So, Anna and Richard, any final thoughts or comments on your behalf? We’ll start with Anna.
Anna Wren: I would like to briefly comment about 911, if you don't mind.
Eileen: Absolutely, please do.
Anna Wren: You know, as a hearing person, all they have to do is pick up their phone, you know, dial 911, and call to 911, but for a deaf person you have to dial your password, open up your app, dial 911, there’s a little bit more time, and then you finally get through to 911. If it’s a serious emergency, a health or life threatening emergency, we’re wasting valuable time, so what would be really nice is to have your phone, have 911 on your VRS, and all you have to do is connect to your 911. With new technology, there are ways that that can be done, that recognition can be in place, and it would save time when a 911 call has to be placed and you can connect immediately to someone on 911. I haven't had that experience, but I know that as a voice operated system, you know, a crash detection device, or crash detection technology, so that when a deaf person is in a car and gets into an accident, that crash detection technology is in place so that the call automatically routes the call to the 911 through VRS. That's all I would have to say about that at this time.
Eileen: Thank you for that suggestion. Commissions, any clarifying questions? No clarifying questions. So, then we’ll just stay with you, Anna, if you had any last comments or - - -
Anna Wren: No, no, no, I don't.
Eileen: Thank you, Anna. Over to Richard. Final comments for you?
Richard Belzile: No. I just want to say thank you so much again. I want to thank you so much. Thank you to the commission. You are just wonderful, doing a wonderful job. If I am angry or if I have come across that way, it has really been with the government. It’s the government's responsibility about this. You folks are doing a wonderful job. You reciprocate, and you are providing equal access for us to be able to use the phone. As the CRTC's commission, it is a mandate to provide telecommunication and radio services. You know, the fact that we have a phone. The fact that we can see VRS and use that device is really in my pocket, so to speak. Full-time interpreters ready at the will, ready at the helm. You’re doing your job. I really do appreciate the work that you’re doing, and it’s absolutely 100%, and we’re so happy with it. I just feel, though, that we just need to raise the bar a little bit, you know, that we need to work out those limitations of what we can't use, when we can't use it for work, we can't use it for point to point conversations, and things that we are limited with dealing with governments, the courts and other agencies. You know, the VRS is like having a full-time interpreter in your back pocket, you know, it’s new technology. It’s empowering for the deaf community. However, that being said, we don't see that empowerment taking place the way it should be, you know. We go back to 1867 when Canada's confederation was set up. We go to 1967 centennial of Canada's existence as a country. The empowerment needs to be there, right? So, really the responsibility for that empowerment rests upon our federal government, not the CRTC. The CRTC is just an instrument and agent. We have a division of empowerment that’s in place right now and that is divided up between the federal and provincial levels of government. I do feel that today the responsibility for coordinating interpreting services, everyone’s been kind of passing the buck. It’s a hot potato. It’s all over the place, but really that empowerment rests upon the shoulders of the government of Canada as a federal government. That’s my bottom line. If you could pass that on and pass that along to your superiors, then we would really appreciate the provision of the VRS and the provision of full-time interpreting services so that I can go to work with an interpreter there in my back pocket. That's what I would say.
Eileen: Thank you, Richard. That has been captured on this recording, so that brings me to our next steps. The CRTC will be adding these videos once the closed captioning and everything has been edited. It will be added to the YouTube channel, and following that, a new phase will be introduced into the VRS reviews so that interveners can comment on the videos. This will allow you the opportunity to comment on the content of the videos, so including any clarification to the interpretation of what you communicated. So, the next phase is you can, once we put it up on the YouTube channel, you’ll be alerted and you can comment on the interpretation of this discussion, and we’ll let you know when we’re ready for that.
Richard Belzile: Thank you. Thank you very much for that.
Anna Wren: Thank you very much for this opportunity.
Eileen: Thank you all. We really appreciate you. That concludes this formal session.
Session 2: Member of the Canadian Deaf Grassroots Movement
Eileen: And we have started. Wonderful. Before we begin, I acknowledge that I'm joining this call from the traditional ancestral and unceded territories of the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh nations, and I recognize that others have joined virtually from different and therefore are in different traditional indigenous territories, and I invite you to take a moment to reflect in gratitude and pay tribute to the elders wherever you are calling in from.
Thank you so much for joining today. My name is Eileen. My pronouns are she/her/elle. I'm a woman with long brown hair, and I'm wearing a blue colored shirt. I will be your facilitator today. We have three commissioners who are here with us today, and we will allow each commissioner to introduce themselves to you, and I will spotlight them when we do so, so we will start with Nirmala.
Nirmala: Hello. My name is Nirmala. Thank you so much for being here today. I am a woman of South Asian descent. I have long brown hair. I'm wearing a purple top today, and I to you from Alberta, Calgary specifically. I’m the commissioner for Alberta Northwest Territories, and I just want to say I’m really looking forward to our discussion. This is very helpful. Thank you for agreeing to talk with us today. Much appreciated.
Eileen: Thank you, Nirmala. We’re going to move over to Joanne to introduce herself.
Joanne: Okay. If I can just get the, why am I, I'm unmuted already.
Eileen: Yes, you are unmuted.
Joanne: I see myself as very fuzzy on screen. Am I clear enough on your end?
Kimberly Wood: You are fuzzy on my screen, as well.
Joanne: Oh, okay. I'm not quite sure why that is. I will work on it later. Anyway. Hello. My name is Joanne, and we’ve learned a lot in the last day and a bit, and we, we are, we are getting a lot out of our conversations with people such as yourself, with you, so we’re looking forward to this discussion. Thank you.
Eileen: Thank you, Joanne. We’ll move over to Alicia. You’re on mute.
Alicia: Good afternoon, Kimberly. My name is Alicia.
Kimberly Wood: Nice to meet you.
Alicia: Thank you. Likewise. I am the Vice Chair Broadcasting at the CRTC. I'm a woman with long black hair. I’m wearing a red jacket today, and I’m calling in from Montreal, Quebec, and I am very much looking forward to your comments on the VRS service.
Eileen: Thank you, Alicia. I now invite you, Kimberly, to introduce yourself.
Kimberly Wood: Sure. My name is Kimberly, my last name is Wood, and I have founded and run the Canadian Deaf Grassroots Movement, and my --- sorry, just for the interpreter the video is just a little bit blurry --- so from the Coast Salish territory, and this is where I'm connecting from, so I do want to recognize the land that I am also joining from, as well, that I am able to work and play on, and I am so happy to see everybody here. I'm very excited to have this conversation today. Thank you.
Eileen: Thank you, Kimberly, and, yes, I am also on Coast Salish territory.
Kimberly Wood: Oh wonderful. Okay.
Eileen: Okay. So, now we’re going to focus on 3 main questions. We’re going to want to know about your experience using VRS, we’re going to want to know about your experience with VRS customer service and your experience, if you have any, using VRS to contact 911. We have approximately 45 minutes to go over all of this. If there’s time at the end we invite you to make any additional comments.
So, the first area that we’re going to go through is your experience using VRS. We’d like to know what aspects or features of the service have worked well for you. We’d like to know what challenges and issues you have using VRS, as well as suggestions for improvement.
Kimberly Wood: As a VRS user, I believe it has been a basic awesome experience. I must say that to start with. I just want to make sure the interpreter -- yeah, we're good. As a VRS user, my first experience was wonderful. I felt connected with the world at last. I felt I was on par with my peers, hearing and deaf, and I could make my own phone calls through the use of the VRS interpreters instead of having to rely on other people or family members to make phone calls for me. I felt that independence. That was a real positive, beautiful experience, being able to interact with others. I still struggle, though, sometimes, for example, when it pertains to calling CRA or calling the bank. Very, very sensitive personal information is being shared, and I feel that oftentimes many of us are at odds and the interpreter is just simply there to relay the information as a third party. They’re bound by a code of ethics and confidentiality agreements. There’s a code of ethics for the VRS interpreters that that needs to be adhered to. We have explained this time and time again and finally you get through to some place, but at times I do feel that it’s wasting 20 minutes to a half an hour going through the process of making sure that entity I'm talking to through the VRS is going to be okay with it, so I still feel that the general public out there, the general population, still has really no idea or concept of what the VRS services is there for, and government services, government programs, at the federal level or at the provincial level, still are at odds with the VRS. It’s a platform that can be trusted. They need to be educated and, you know, it has to be worked through in those bugs. There has to be more PR out there. It used to be back in the old days before VRS and we were still using the old TTY, I don't know if any of you remember, but that on your phone bill if you looked at your phone bill you would see a line that was a small percentage, maybe 5, 10 cents off your phone bill that was allocated to the TTY fund, and there was a bit of an explanation of what that money was going to be used for on your phone bill. Now with the VRS, I think that should be implemented where there should be a line on your phone statement that there is a line there that this service or this funding is being allocated for VRS service. There could be a little blurb as to what the VRS service provides, why there’s an interpreter, why there’s a third party interacting with that phone call, and that would sort of be our voice for the community, and I think that kind of outreach would improve our ability to make our phone calls instead of having to sit there and waste 20 to 30 minutes explaining why we need the service and that it’s something that we can trust and rely upon, and, you know, provide that general awareness to the general public so they have an idea of what’s happening when they get a VRS call. You know, VRS is new. It’s going to take time to get out there, but to put education or outreach out there for the general population would do that. In the United States, that’s very well known what the purpose of the VRS is, and I’d like to see that happen here in Canada as it is in the United States.
Eileen: Thank you, Kimberly. Before you continue, are there any questions for clarification from the commissioners?
Kimberly Wood: Sure.
Eileen: They’re shaking their heads they don’t have any questions. I just want to allow them that opportunity. Oh, Joanne has something. Let me spotlight you, Joanne, and perhaps Joanne you could try unblurring your background. That might clear up your look on the screen, but you are a little blurry. So, step one, off mute.
Joanne: There we go. I am unmuted, and I will take the blur off. No, I'm still blurry. Okay. We’ll try to sort that out another time. I wanted to know a little bit more about your organization, Kimberly, and how you came together and what you see as your goal for your organization.
Kimberly Wood: The reason we got organized as an organization it had to do with literacy and the lack of literacy in the deaf community. We found that many deaf individuals were unaware of many issues with government, whether that be federal, provincial, municipal, and many of them lacked an understanding and an orientation to what was all involved, so our organization and our objective is to provide awareness, education to the community, as to what’s going on, what are the specifics of what is happening in the political landscape, and to advocate and educate the deaf community how they can self-advocate and be in touch with their minister, their MLA, or with the government agency or entity that they’re dealing with. Just an example of that, there was one workplace where they had a deaf truck driver. His company is a federal company. The federal government mandated all the employees that they had to take this one particular course and pass it in order to maintain their retention in the company. If they failed to take this exam or if they failed the exam, they would be terminated. This deaf truck driver was at a loss. He wasn’t provided an interpreter. He wasn’t provided an interpreter for normal access to this particular course and workshop and subsequent exam. He was not provided, or they were not provided that ability. Oftentimes that is the case with deaf people. We have to go and advocate with them. They have to go talk with their union or walk them through the step by step process and help them walk through that process together to advocate for their rights. So, this instance, the interpreter was provided, the truck driver passed his course, and thus he was able to keep his job. So, pertaining to the CRTC here and the VRS, we are making sure that we’re getting it out there to the deaf community. You know, if there’s a misunderstanding that takes place, I remember at the beginning, when the VRS system and the CRTC made the announcement that there was going to be a VRS review, there was a high percentage of deaf people that were paranoid, thinking this review meant that the VRS was going to be taken away or shut down, and there was a misunderstanding, and we had to go out there and explain to them that wasn't the intent of the VRS review. The intent of the VRS review was to analyze what improvements could be made to better improve the services. What have we done? What have we done well? What can we improve on? What can we do to make it work? This was going to be an opportunity or venue for us to provide that opportunity of education, and so this was the opportunity that we took to educate the deaf community from a grassroots level what was going to be done with the VRS review and clarify those conceptions or misconceptions that were there, and also we’ve done the same with other government agencies, projects, reviews and the like.
Joanne: So, you're a national agency? Is that correct?
Kimberly Wood: Yes, it is.
Joanne: Thank you very much.
Kimberly Wood: We are volunteer based organization. It’s mainly made up of volunteers that provide this outreach and education.
Joanne: It sounds as though it’s extremely important. Thank you.
Eileen: Thank you, Joanne, for your question, and thank you, Kimberly, very much for that answer. Nirmala also has a question.
Nirmala: Yes, Kimberly, you’re not the first person who mentioned that there is some sort of a disconnect when it comes to banks and institutions that are dealing, who don't really understand what VRS is all about, and we understand that education is a big part of that, and I read some of your, your answers from before, and it says that you think that there needs to be more outreach done with those groups. My question is, do you think that outreach and education is enough, because we’ve heard from other presenters throughout the course of our discussions that they keep going back to the bank and they keep saying to the bank, you know, we’re using VRS and they keep having to go through all of the same explanations with the bank as if they had never had the conversation before, and so I'm wondering if you have any suggestions about how to fix that because obviously even just dealing with them once hasn't made things better for the future, so what’s your take on that?
Kimberly Wood: In my opinion, I think we just have to make sure our outreach and PR, public relations, is out there. If, you know, say, for example, yes, it needs to be improved. We need to improve awareness of the VRS for sure, for certain, to all banks, CRA, government agencies, crown corporations, and maybe even some advertising on TV. I remember the CAV did a brief marketing campaign with a deaf doctor here in Vancouver that we have, and there was a short promotion or marketing segment that, you know, providing that awareness, but that was just a short blip in time. It needs to be ongoing, it needs to be ongoing what the VRS can do, what the VRS is all about and provide that awareness. I’d like to give you an example, just food for thought. When it comes to harassment issues and, you know, we see that in the community across Canada where bullying and harassment is a major issue because we forget the person doesn't understand what it means to be bullied and harassed or gaslighted, you know. From a cultural perspective, it creates fear mongering. Now, when talk about the VRS, you know, you get someone on the phone who’s new on the phone and they think it’s a scam, they’re getting a phone call and they’re not sure if they can trust the person who’s calling them. They have to be educated so that they understand and know that if it’s the VRS, it’s the VRS providing service and they don't have to think twice and say should I trust this phone call or should I hang up, so there’s things like that that could be improved on with the awareness and outreach and public relations.
Eileen: Thank you, Kimberly, and thank you for your question, Nirmala.
Okay, back to Kimberly. Are there other thoughts or suggestions that you have around your experience using the VRS service?
Kimberly Wood: With our grassroots we have gotten feedback from our communities, and pretty much everything and everything that I’ve told you today is pretty much everything that everyone has told us. My concern is for the deaf-blind and low vision callers. I really feel that they don't have enough access. I think it’s important for them to have access and that we need to listen to their voice from the deaf-blind community to find out what it is that we can do, how we can improve services and accessibility for the deaf-blind community. I have had some of them come and ask me, and I said, okay, tell me what you want to talk about, come to my place or I’ll go and meet you some place and we’ll sit down face-to-face and have a conversation. I’ll have an interpreter or intervener and we’ll communicate and interrelate, and I'm quite happy to do that, but I just can't say no because I believe in accessibility so much so that I’ll take the time to meet with them and hear what they have to say. Another thing that has come up as an issue has to do with the phones. For example, when a VRS call comes into my cell phone, and I’ve got this small device and I want to forward it to a larger screen, say to my laptop or PC or my Mac and I have larger screen so I can see the caller or the VRS interpreter much more clear, so I have a 17-1/2 inch screen and it’s large enough for me to be able to see much more than my little iPhone. I need to have to hang up, then I have to call back into the VRS service, and I have to ask the interpreter to call me back so I can answer on my laptop, so I find that a bit of a redundancy, a bit of a negativity for the use of the VRS, especially for those with low vision abilities. How do they manage and navigate those kinds of calls when those kinds of situations arise, so that’s kind of what is in the back of my mind. Another issue that we have had happen with the VRS, and I'm sure you’re already aware of it, or I should say maybe that’s an issue you’re already aware of and have heard about that before.
Eileen: Oh, okay. Thank you. Nirmala?
Nirmala: Yes, I was just waiting for me to show up on the screen. We’ve heard other presenters say or talk about the issues with deaf-blind, as well, and I'm wondering if you have any idea about how the service can be improved. Some have said that Braille keyboards isn't enough. Some have said one of the issues is that they use tactile sign language, and that’s not, you know, something that you can use readily with VRS, so I'm wondering what you’re hearing from the people that you, the grassroots people that you deal with about what some of the solutions might be.
Kimberly Wood: I think maybe a solution would be to have a call center for those that are deaf-blind and low vision so they can actually go in person. Like, say here in the Vancouver area, one idea is the Wayfront Center. They provide, it’s a communication access center. If you could set up a, say, a kiosk where a deaf-blind person could come in and use the VRS from that facility and then they would have an intervener side-by-side with them that could provide that tactile interpretation while they’re on a VRS call and maybe in other parts of Canada similar centers could be set up and provided for and get that into the, say, the resident, the schools for the deaf, community centers, you know, in Ontario, in the Toronto area, they have such a facility at the Bob Rumble Center for the Deaf. You could set up a VRS station or a booth, so to speak, where a deaf-blind person could come in person, have a tactile interpreter, and they could make their phone call on the VRS system right there and then and would have that access. That's just one suggestion that could probably be looked at, but, you know, again, I would prefer to hear and get that feedback and recommendation particularly from the deaf-blind community. I wouldn't want to speak for them. That would have to be them who feel comfortable with such a provision of that kind of an approach.
Time to switch interpreters.
Eileen: Thank you for that, and we’ll allow the interpreters to switch over. Thank you, Nirmala, for those questions.
Are we all good? Okay.
I’d like to switch the conversation now on your experience with VRS customer service. So, we’d like to know what positive and negative parts of, you know, your experience with VRS have you experienced with customer service and any suggestions for improvement.
Kimberly Wood: Sure. Absolutely. Okay, so, for myself, I have yet to have any negative experiences personally. I think maybe they’re like, oh, it’s Kim here, so they want to resolve whatever issue is as fast as possible just because I'm coming in from wearing the hat of CDGM. So, customer service sees me and they recognize me, so I’ve not had any negative experiences with them. Everything has worked out really well. Other people, unfortunately, have not had the same experience that I have had. Other members of the deaf community when they’ve had issues with the technology of VRS or the VRS services specifically trying to -- they will CC me on some of the correspondence so that I am able to see it doesn’t appear that the concerns haven't been resolved. I’ve not seen that correspondence happen, so then I do try to figure it out and help members in the deaf community as best as I can on my end. I have had other deaf individuals who also struggle with some of the technology, and then they might have the initial issue resolved but then they have the same problem pop up again, so I’m able to solve it kind of on my end and not need to have to contact customer service again, but some people are not able to do that on their own just because they are not as comfortable using technology. Also, some deaf people do have only, for example, one device, and then if they’re not able to access anything on that device they are completely then in the dark, so to speak, of not being able to use VRS if there is an issue that they are not able to contact customer service and they don't have another way of being able to contact them if their primary device is not working in order to try to resolve whatever issue is occurring because they don't have a secondary device. Fortunately, if this isn't working, I'm able to then transfer over to my phone or I'm able to transfer over to my iPad. I have multiple devices, but not all deaf people have access to multiple devices, so that is also a barrier, as well, that if they don’t have multiple devices then if their initial one, their only one, is on the fritz then they have no way of being able to contact, and then also, I wanted to add in, too, that I have put down for myself as providing feedback, am I 100% completely satisfied with everything, unfortunately no. I'm not a hundred percent satisfied with the platform. There are many issues that have arised with the platform, and it seems to continually happen, so I would love to see some of the platform itself be changed out to something better than what it is, and I know even with my own internal team we have taken a look at different platforms trying to see what is available out there, and we usually look stateside to see what they’re doing on their end and how they are running things. So, for example, Sorenson, I know that it’s a private company, and they own whichever device that they are using, Convo, and there are a few others, as well, Purple is another one, ZVRS, as well. There is a web-based service also being used, so it wouldn’t, it might be possible to try some of these other platforms out. I know Convo does have a Canadian arm, as well, and they have established some policies that the VRS and the platform is not, they want to have their own individual platform so that it’s not the same one as the other Canadian VRS services being used, so it’s something to be able to take a look at and hopefully we can modify the policy so that would allow Convo to be able to write, to be able to use their own web-based platform instead of using the one that’s in the Canadian system. So, I'm not sure if that will improve things overall because I haven't had the opportunity to test out these other systems, so it’s hard to know for sure, but I do know the web-based service seems to be the best choice that could be applicable for Canadians to use the service.
Eileen: Thank you, Kimberly. Any clarifying questions from commissioners? No? Okay. Anything further to add, Kimberly, on that before we move on to discussing 911?
Kimberly Wood: No, I think I touched on everything that I wanted to. Again, this is, like I said, this has been an ongoing issue. I know many, many deaf Canadians have expressed this concern with me, and I keep pointing them over to CAV to be able to express the frustrations that they are having, but, again, there hasn’t been any resolution to some of these complaints that are moving forward, and, again, I have had many of them include me on their correspondence of any type of issues that have arised and have yet to see some resolutions, so I would love to be able to see that be improved upon, and, as well as I know with deaf Canadians who have raised issues with CAV directly and have yet to see resolution, I have told them that if you’re not doing that you need to go to CAV first but if not there is the CRTC, as well, who, it’s just that we find that because we’re not seeing the improvement happen with the VRS system overall you just kind of feel deflated because you feel like you’re just kind of, you feel redundant and you’re not being able to see any type of movement to improve things moving forward, so that would be something I’d really love to see change.
Eileen: Thank you. We’ll move on to your experience using VRS to contact 911 or things that you’ve heard from others about contacting 911. So, if you or others you know have contacted 911, we’d would like to hear about the, what the experience was like and how the experience could be improved.
Kimberly Wood: Okay, so for 911, so there was experience calling from home and there was no concern and there was no issues. Everything went through right away. There was no wait time, but then there was one, something was happening where I was not at home and then I thought I would try it out on my, using my data, and it went through. I didn't have any issues in regards to contacting 911, and then the VRS interpreter also continued on the call with me while we waited until the ambulance arrived and fire arrived and then everything was taken care of and the interpreter made sure that everything was done before they disconnected, so that, that was nice for me on my end to have that. I know other people's experiences that I have heard some feedback in relation to, for example, medication that they have had to, or medical need that they have had to call 911 through VRS and then they have, the VRS interpreter has stayed on the line with them and then even while they’re in the ambulance until they do arrive at the hospital and then they have their own interpreting services provided at the hospital and then at that point the VRS interpreter disconnects. So, having access to the interpreter during that emergency right as soon as it happens the second that 911 connects, and then having the ambulance and everything arrive, but knowing that 911 their provision is that typically once the first responders arrive, the 911 operator disconnects. So, I know hearing from deaf users who have had experiences using 911 it has been nice to have that communication continue right until they arrive to the hospital. That is the case that needs to happen. One unfortunate story that I did hear, or there was an emergency related to someone's child and they had to call 911, and then 911 did not respond. Sorry, I apologize. I meant VRS. There was no response so they had to continually call again and again, and I think it was maybe at 2:00 in the morning and they kept trying to call 911 through use of the VRS, and then they ended up, and even they ended up calling me, and then even for myself I tried on their behalf and I wasn't able to get through to anybody, and then their daughter ended up having to call 911 themselves, even though the daughter was the one who was experiencing the medical emergency at that time because, unfortunately, the father who was trying to call 911 on behalf of their child wasn't able to get through using VRS, so everything else has been very positive. This has been the only story that I’ve heard that did not happen the way that was intended, and then again, like I said, whether it’s been once a 911 operator disconnects the call then gets transferred over to whichever first responder is on scene and then that still continues with the VRS interpreter until the person arrives to their destination, and then at that destination an on-site interpreter will potentially take over, and then at that point the call disconnects, so that’s been actually wonderful for deaf people to experience that kind of continuity throughout their emergency.
Eileen: Okay. Thank you, Kimberly. I believe Alicia has a question. I will spotlight you.
Alicia: Thank you, Eileen. Kimberly, it’s distressing to hear the particular circumstance that you described and given that it relates specifically to the use of the 911 service with VRS. I am wondering if you are aware whether this kind of feedback has been given to the CAV in the cases where the 911 service was, if you will, not functional.
Kimberly Wood: Yes, that feedback was given to CAV. Yes, that person did let them know what had occurred.
Eileen: Thank you. Nirmala has her hand up. Let me move over to Nirmala.
Nirmala: Thank you so much for talking about the 911 issues, and I found that really interesting. My, my question actually isn't about 911. I just want to make sure that you have the chance to put this on the record because I know that you hear from grassroots people and I know that you’ve been hearing a little bit about the quality of interpreters, and I didn't hear you talk about that in your answers so far so I just wanted to give you a chance to raise any of the issues or concerns that you’ve been hearing from, you know, your, your, you know, dealings with grassroots people.
Kimberly Wood: Really, many of them are very satisfied with the provision of the interpreters themselves, that they do have a strict screening process for any of the video relay or VRS interpreters who will be employed by them, so I know that they have established a high standard already. So, that is something that is very, very positive for this, so I haven't seen many negative comments in relation to the quality of interpreters. If anything, it’s been the exact opposite where it has been actually very positive, so I haven’t seen, again, any type of, from the community that I primarily focus with, I haven't seen anything negative in relation to that. Again, with VRS they have had that set up with about the screening process, so it seems, again, like everyone is very happy with the actual quality of the interpreters.
Eileen: Thank you. I believe we are switching. There we go. Switching interpreters. Just making sure we’re set up here. Alright. So, that concludes the questions that I have. Is there anything else, Kimberly, that you wish to share with us?
Kimberly Wood: I envision that the VRS is a dream come true for us. We were waiting for the VRS service for more than 10 years. It used to be the BCVRS community. We lobbied and advocated for the VRS service. There were issues that were inherent, and when I mentioned to my community that, you know, there were, the VRS was in its infancy, it was like a little baby, like a little baby plant. It just started to take root, you have to feed it, you have to water it, you have to nurture it to let it grow and develop into the service that it could be, and I see the VRS service the same way. You know, it’s been set up for so many years now, for the past five years, it’s still in its infancy. It’s going to be fed, nurtured, watered, the bugs worked out, the kinks worked out, and once that is done I don't think we’re going to have any more issues with it. It’s our goal here today to make that happen, isn't it, with this review is to provide you the feedback, the consultation, the issues that have arisen, the solutions that can be provided, and we can see an improvement to the VRS service after this VRS review. That's our dream, that’s our expectation, and we hope that will happen, and going forward, it’s going to be a better service for this.
One thing I think that we could do, I notice that with these issues that have come up, with the deaf and hard of hearing and the deaf-blind, on low income, they aren’t on par with their hearing counterparts and many of them can't afford a top quality laptop or top notch iPhone or any iPad or any device for that matter, and I do know that there are deaf out there that can't afford a device, and yet they need and want to have access to the VRS so they go out and buy a Chromebook, for example, right? So, they go out and buy a Chromebook. Well, the Chromebook isn't compatible with the VRS platform and the VRS application. They’re not compatible, so they’re stuck, and they have device incompatibility and they can't afford anything else. They can't afford a phone, they can't afford this, and so therefore they have no access, so they are reliant on their friend's VRS or on my VRS to come and make a phone call. Let them use it to make a phone call. It would be nice to see the CRTC maybe add in something into the funding basket or the funding coffer to provide for those who are low income who can apply and maybe get a free device for the purposes of having access to VRS. That would go a long way to improving accessibility because right now not all the deaf in Canada, the deaf-blind or the deaf and hard of hearing, have an access. It's only those who have the funds who have already got a device, who can already afford one that can have access to the VRS, and that itself is a barrier to providing complete accessibility. It would be nice to see the CRTC or the federal government find some money in the coffers to come up with something for those who are on low income. Like, for example, when you talked about a Braille keyboard. Well, a deaf-blind person can't afford a Braille keyboard. Many of them can't afford it. There’s only a select few that might be able to, and they would still be reliant on borrowing something from someone else because they can't afford a Braille keyboard. They can't afford the devices that are needed to be able to provide accessibility. So, I think, I believe, that there has to be parity. I know that in the United States, I call the United States in the deaf community, they have, they’re on a free ride right now. They’ve got a free because they get a free iPad, they get a free laptop. It’s provided as part of that service. Everything is provided to them at no cost. It’s automatic that they get a device whether they’re a low income person or whether they’re not a low income person. There is a denser population than Canada, but in my dream, it would be something that should be provided, that money should be allocated for our low income earners to have the ability to be able to get a device and access the VRS service, and that would be providing equal access to providing service, because right now at this time they can't afford it. It’s not equal to all, so that would be one comment I would like to make. My one little bit of two cents worth to the topic.
Eileen: Thank you very much for that, Kimberly. Any final closing remarks from any of the commissioners? They are all shaking their heads. I think you have been providing some very valuable feedback to us, Kimberly, so thank you so much for that, and I wholeheartedly agree, the whole purpose is to look for ways for improvement.
Kimberly Wood: I want to say and take this opportunity to thank the CRTC for taking on and consulting this VRS review. It’s been a long time coming. We’ve been patient. We know COVID got in the way. We are very happy that this review was able to be conducted, and I hope that this will continue, and we want to thank the CRTC for allowing us to have equal access to communication. It’s key to our day-to-day living. Thank you.
Eileen: Thank you, Kimberly. Thank you, commissioners. That concludes this formal session.
Session 3: Members of the Canadian DeafBlind Collective for VRS
Eileen: We are recording. Hello and welcome. Before I begin, I acknowledge that I am joining this call from the traditional ancestral unceded territories of the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh nations. I recognize that others have joined virtually from different locations and therefore are in different traditional indigenous territories. I invite you to take a moment to reflect in gratitude and pay tribute to the elders wherever you are.
Thank you so much for joining today. My name is Eileen. My pronouns are she, her and elle. I'm a woman with long brown hair, and I'm wearing a blue colored shirt, and I will be your facilitator for this session. We have three commissioners with us here today, and I will invite Joanne to introduce herself to you. Let me spotlight her. Go ahead, Joanne. You can take yourself off mute.
Joanne: Thank you. Hello. My name is Joanne, and I'm a white woman with short blondish hair. I wear glasses with red rims, and I’m wearing a bright orange cozy sweater today with a white shirt, and I come to you from Saskatchewan. I'm the commissioner for Saskatchewan and Manitoba, and I live in a small city called Warman just north of Saskatoon.
Eileen: Thank you, Joanne. We’ll go on to Alicia.
Alicia: Hello. My name is Alicia. I am the vice chair broadcasting at the CRTC. I am a woman with long black hair. I'm wearing a red jacket, and I am joining you today from Montreal, Quebec, and I'm very anxious to hear about your experiences with the VRS service. Welcome.
Eileen: Thank you, Alicia. Nirmala?
Nirmala: Hello. My name is Nirmala. Thank you for being here today. I am a woman of South Asian descent. I have long dark hair. I'm wearing a purple blouse today. I am the commissioner for Alberta Northwest Territories, and I come to you today from Calgary. I want to thank you very much for being here today. We really look forward to hearing from all of you about VRS, and we look forward to chatting over the next hour. Thank you.
Eileen: Thank you so much, Nirmala. Leanor, will you introduce yourself?
Leanor: Yes. Good afternoon. My name is Leanor, and my name sign is L-L like that. I am from New Westminster, British Columbia, just a short jaunt from Vancouver. I am a senior citizen. I am 77 years old. I'm proud to be still involved with the deaf community. I have short white hair. I sometimes wear glasses, sometimes I don't. I am wearing a black sweater with a bluish jacket from Gallaudet University, my class year of 1967, and I have lived in the Qayqayt First Nation and I recognize their unceded territory and land acknowledgement.
Eileen: Thank you, Leanor. Terri?
Terri: Hello there, and good morning and good afternoon to wherever you may be and perhaps good evening. My name is Terri, and my last name is Nolt. This is my sign name. T away from the head. I am wearing, I have dark black hair, short, scrunched in a bun. I'm wearing a blue shirt, which is dark blue, and I have, and I am from Langley, British Columbia, which is close by, next over to New Westminster, where Leanor is, close to Vancouver, and I am blind and deaf. I have one eye that is blind, and I work for Spark in British Columbia with permit, and I also work with the Canadian Association of the Deaf as a facilitator for the deaf-blind in Vancouver, and I am also on a committee, a chairperson, as well, for the deaf-blind, and I am also involved with the deaf-blind VRS advisory as a leader in the community, and that’s all I have to say, and thank you for the opportunity to meet you all and to be here for this meeting. I thank you for inviting us to be involved. Thank you.
Eileen: Thank you, Terri.
Interpreter: We’re just going to switch interpreters, Eileen.
Eileen: Okay. All right. Noella?
Noella: Yes, hi. My name is Noella. My last name is Roberts. I have an N on my opposite shoulder, and I am coming from close to Vancouver, right kind of on the other side of it, Cranbrook, BC, not too far away from the border, actually, to Alberta. I am deaf-blind, as well. I'm able to, I have vision in one of my eyes, the other one I do not, and I have been involved in the deaf-blind community and supporting everyone in that community, as well. I was born, because of German measles, I ended up having a lot of challenges because of contracting that during the birthing process, as well, and I have worked with the Canadian Peer Support contract underneath the Well-Being for the Deaf Project for Deaf People, as well, and I am wearing a t-shirt that is kind of wine, red wine colored, and I have kind of longer, shoulder length, kind of brownish hair.
Eileen: Thank you, Noella.
All right. We have three main topics that I want to just discuss as a group. The first is your experience using VRS, the second is experience with VRS customer service, and the third is your experience using VRS to contact 911, and if at the end of that we have more time we are open to hearing other comments, but the three main focuses are those three. So, to start off, we’re looking to hear about your experience using VRS.
Interpreter: Oh, sorry, I think Noella is just trying to alter the lighting because I can see the sun is shining in.
Eileen: Okay, we will wait for that. Okay, yes, the lighting is actually much better.
All right. So, the first question is hearing your experience using VRS, we want to know what aspects or features of the service have worked well for you, we want to know what challenges or problems you’ve had using VRS as well as suggestions for improvement, and, Leanor, we'll start with you.
Leanor: Okay. Personally, as a deaf person, I did not use VRS very much at the very beginning. I, at that point, was really relying on text. Text to relay, technology of that nature, and once we ended up moving here to the Vancouver area, and then I ended up seeing that the, I was starting to see that VRS was being used a lot more and for different reasons so then I did end up seeing that there was a benefit in that versus using that kind of text relay service before. Mostly I have enjoyed using it because I'm able to converse in my language, but it does seem that some of the technologies, some of within the VRS there has been issues within that realm, and also at times, too, the interpreters themselves, the quality isn't the greatest. I'm not sure if it’s a technical problem on their end or if it’s on my end, so we will utilize the chat feature within the system. That’s kind of one of my ways to resolve the issue, so, if I have to, for example, actually, one thing that’s great using the chat, if I have to type in the names of my medications, that's wonderful because then I'm able to did that in real time, and sometimes I will use the chat, too, if the interpreter is not able to catch what I'm finger spelling. Maybe they’re just not familiar with the area that I’m in, so then I’ll be able to utilize the chat feature in order to put the word in there that the interpreter needs to know. There are some limitations, too, as well. I do use a PC most of the time when I’m doing it. I have done it before on a mobile phone, but it’s just not very comfortable, and I think that’s where the limitation comes in because the screen size isn't great for a senior's eyes, so that’s been one thing for me is that I would love to see some different options for different types of communication, because I was actually born hearing and then later I became deaf at the age of 10, so I already had kind of a language foundation that I was able to use. I like being able to communicate with different organizations, doctor's office, who don't use e-mail and then I’ll have to then utilize the VRS, so I'm trying to teach them how to use VRS as an option to communicate if they don't use e-mail, and then we do have an interpreting program here in British Columbia, so, again, I’m very much encouraging through the, sorry, for the medical interpreting program here in British Columbia, so I'm trying to be able to have that kind of conversation with them and have the interpreters there in real time and going over through using the phone that way. I would like to say that I've also had experience living in the United States, as well, and our choices are limited in comparison. So, we really just have the one option here in Canada whereas in the United States, they have more options for different providers, different types of system providers and access to many more different services. I’d like to say we have yet to kind of arrive to that point, to be able to have kind of that equity in communication. We just don't have that functional equivalency that we see in the States, so it would be wonderful if we would be able to get a little bit more here in Canada than what we have had, so I would definitely recommend, as well, that you read our recommendations that we have put up for the Canada, Canadian Deaf-blind Collective that we have made recommendations specifically on how to improve services and what not, so I thought this was a great opportunity to kind of bring that up, as well, so not only just my personal experiences but the collective, as well, so I think we could probably turn the floor over to our other two participants because they are coming to us from actually lived experience.
Eileen: Excellent. Thank you very much, Leanor. Let's hear from Terri.
Terri: Sure. Okay. So, my experience with using VRS, I haven't had a lot of experience. Sometimes if I, like what, using the iPhone isn't always the greatest because, again, I'm having to use my own personal data, which then gets used up very fast, so I try to use it as much as I can if I need to from home, so my own kind of experience with VRS is that there’s long wait times to get connected at times, also the VRS trying to go through, that the VRS interpreter will have to then transfer multiple times to different interpreters, so when I do my initial call the first interpreter then has to transfer to other interpreters, so I would rather see just kind of my call being continued on with the same interpreter. It would be great to see that kind of, and it’s very confusing, again, for someone who is deaf-blind to then switch to a different interpreter and have to then reexplain everything. It just adds kind of a layer, an extra layer of stress for myself as a deaf-blind individual, and also the actual sign language and the communication that’s being used through some of the interpreters, sometimes I do notice that they don't seem to have an intimate or in-depth knowledge in regards to deaf-blind culture and how to modify and to be sure they are accommodating that type of communication need and being understanding with that, as well, knowing that what different deaf-blind individuals may need, which is different than perhaps, say, someone who is just deaf or a hard of hearing individual, so that would be something that would be wonderful to see is to hire people who have experience and full experience and awareness and in-depth awareness of working with people who are deaf-blind and being able to be able to work with that community specifically. Sometimes I have not been fully satisfied. I'm trying to think of specific examples here where it has not gone well. Like I said, the communication at times goes awry, that, sometimes even that the English register might be too high, that I need it to be done at a different register so that it just increases that level of understanding. There’s just so many different issues. It’s hard to just pick one or two just to try to relay. I'm just trying to think of some concrete examples. Just trying to think, here, okay. Yes. Do you want to go on to Noella?
Eileen: We can go on to Noella if you feel you’ve expressed everything you have for now, Terri, and we can always come back to you, Terri.
Terri: Sure, sure. Perfect. Thank you. Yeah, I'm still trying to think of some more.
Eileen: That's okay. Let's listen to Noella.
Terri: Wonderful. Thank you.
Noella: So, before I actually used TTYs, and then I had realized at the time I was very frustrated with the English terminology that was being used. It’s hard because I think in ASL so trying to then convert that into English and then type it down was just, again, that added stressful layer, and then once VRS was established, and being able to converse in sign language, just made the communication so much better, and then anyone who has had experience being involved in a deaf community or someone who just recently just moved here to Canada, their English literacy may not be very high, so then being able to converse in sign language just helps ease that communication. Perhaps they didn't have enough education in school so that their English literacy is at a lower level, and that’s not a fault of our own. It’s just that is what it is, so having it being done in ASL is a great improvement than what our services used to be. When thinking about the interpreter, sometimes they sign way too fast or they finger spell way too fast. I’m not able to keep up, so I do have to ask the interpreters to slow down. At times I’ll have to utilize paper and pen and write things down in big letters, for example, like a felt pen so that I am able to see it clearly, so there are sometimes frustrations just with that as a deaf-blind user. Sometimes I need to call to, I don't know, make an appointment with different places.
Interpreter: Oh, Noella’s just saying we’re just looking like we’re going to switch interpreters here.
Eileen: Yes. Okay. We will switch interpreters here. Alright. I think we’ve switched interpreters. Anything else, Noella?
Noella: Yeah, sometimes the background color is important. I have to tell the interpreter to change their background to match the needs of the deaf-blind so it’s easy to see for proper contrast between the interpreter and what they’re wearing and the background. It’s not quite the same as you would find in the, in the, in the average deaf community. The type of clothing. They should wear black or the shirt maybe have to switch to another interpreter if that interpreter is a black person then I’ll ask them to do an opposite contrast. Like, if they’re a black interpreter I’ll ask them to put on something that’s bright so there’s a contrast between what they’re wearing and their skin color is so it provides that visual contrast so I can see clearly.
I, I think that’s it for now. Something else might come to mind, so I’ll defer to you.
Eileen: I think Terri has.
Terri: Yes, you know, when you’re talking and dealing with low vision and deaf-blind callers, you know, if, for example we have, we need to use, or supposed to use an iPhone, I doubt that I would because the size of the screen is so much smaller and that presents a challenge and then you add to it the text that comes on the screen. If you’re a full, if a, a full deaf-blind person is not able to use that, so we would like to see and be involved with having, you know, rights to equal access and making it, you know, known that the screen size is such that when it’s, they’re being signed to or reading us from our screen that it’s able to be able to use a device that when they’re on screen they can be seen signing and can be read, and if there’s that attention deficit, so, you know, maybe a special font for text or VRS would be helpful, as well, and, also, when we think of the background is what Noella is talking about, the background, I have seen many experiences with the VRS interpreters and their backgrounds. They’ve had a background that’s white and with their furniture in behind them in the background, which prevents, provides a visual distraction or visual noise. They have a table, and they have a chair, or a white table cloth, and that creates the complexity with the lighting, maybe the direction of the lighting has a bearing on it, and that provides a visual distraction, and even the skin color is important, too, because I've been on calls where the person has a dark skin color and they’re wearing a very bright colored shirt, so they have to be able to be prepared to change what they’re wearing, and I’ve also seen the types of collar, like an open collar, it has to be like a very short and tight collar because it can be very distracting if they are wearing low cut blouse or a very short sleeve and it provides a visual distraction, so to wear a long sleeve shirt and very short neckline because those are preferences important to the deaf-blind.
I prefer to use an iPad. It does come out to a personal choice what a person wants to use for their device, and to have it compatible with their data plan. That's an absolute must because a lot of people can't afford what they want for their comfort and their budget that they are dealing with, and if there’s an emergency or they have to call out for a taxi, this is a required service so having a portable iPad is handy. I used to use the TTY, but there used to be the text size on the VRS and to try and make out what’s being typed out on the screen, for example, if I wanted to change it to something different, let’s say I wanted to keep my screen size resolution the same, but then, you know, it’s hard to place everything on the screen and the iPad isn’t compatible with the computer or another device that I would like to see something on a laptop on VRS because the way it operates is different, and the systems aren't the same, so, you know, try and come up with a way that we can choose and have options with the colors, the text, the backgrounds, the font of the text, the size of the font and having those options that we can have options to read them and see them a lot clearly and easier. So, Noella, if you have anything else, please bring that up.
Eileen: Thank you, Terri.
Interpreter: Yeah, it looks like Noella is having some trouble there.
Eileen: Noella is having some video connection issues. Okay, Noella’s back.
Interpreter: No, this is the first time this has ever happened.
Eileen: It looks similar to the issues, Leanor, that you were having earlier. It could be something with the Zoom connection. Just trying to get Noella back here.
Noella: I don't know why this is happening. Maybe it’s the PC. Maybe it might be your PC.
Interpreter: Okay, did you want to add something, Terri, or can I say something? Okay. Yes. Is it okay if I proceed? I would like to share an experience that I received from a deaf-blind person when they were waiting a long time to process a call and have a call, and the tendency was for them to call out for their medication. They had needs to talk to their service provider, the customer service person that they were trying to talk to, and sometimes they experienced a long wait time, and that could be anywhere from 10 minutes to half an hour, and apparently, from time to time, the VRS interpreter apparently didn't have, didn't seem to have the patience to sit and wait for that length of time on hold, you know, left the deaf-blind person in the dark as to what was going on. You know, it would be nice to know that that information could be shared with the deaf-blind person while they were on hold, like if there’s music or background noise or a comment made that, you know, the greeting is being repeated from the beginning again and to keep them in the loop just to say you're on hold and they go about and do their own thing and look on their computer or desktop or reading a book or doing whatever you might have you or on another screen they might have up and running or even some paperwork, and that connection doesn't make a deaf person or the deaf-blind person feel connected when eye contact isn't maintained during the phone call with the deaf-blind person as a client, and that was the comment that I got asked to share. It was a frustration that they had a long wait time and then the call dropped after the fact, and apparently the hearing person they were calling had disconnected from the service, and they had to ask what was going on, what was going on, and then they realize, oh, they disconnected the phone call. Well, why didn't you tell me that? So, when did that happen, kind of thing, and so they were a little upset because they had to call from work and they were on work time and they were using their phone, home, their own personal phone from their work environment, and they weren't able to use the device that they had to use at work that was on WiFi, so there are time limitations to be considered when they have to manage things like this, and they commented that they would appreciate that if the VRS committee was getting close to the time of their, end of their shift, for example, that, you know, to be advised that, you know, the interpreter’s going to take a break or has to go off shift, that this call might be on hold for a little while and that should be passed on to the incoming interpreter to communicate that there’s going to be a hand-off, like if there’s going to be a hand-off then there could be an explanation provided and the incoming interpreter could be briefed on the content of the call up to that point so that when the incoming interpreter takes over the call, the, the client doesn’t have to start all over again with the message so there is continuity and flow to the message. It’s bad enough that, you know, a person with low vision or is deaf-blind has to navigate as to what’s going on. Let's make their life easier by keeping them in the loop and keep the connection going on between the interpreter and the caller so they aren’t felt like they’re just hanging in the air, so to speak, and those were their, that person’s exact words, by the way. So, I can't think of anything else right at the moment, but if I do I'll let you know.
Terri: This is Terri.
Interpreter: Hang on. I’ve got to add the pins here again. Sorry about that.
Eileen: Terri, so, can you ask Terri to start over, please?
Terri: Yes, we need to be able to use both systems and figure out a way, you know, the budget, you know, to be able to afford these devices. We need to find some way of improving how we can be comfortable and getting our preferences met, and that’s important to be able to do that, and that’s all I wanted to say. Thank you.
Eileen: Thank you, Terri. Just a request for you, Terri. A request for Terri that when we switch speakers, if you can give the interpreter a moment to catch up with you. My fear is we might be losing some of the beginning of what you’re saying, and I don’t want to lose what you’re saying.
Terri: Sure, can I do that.
Eileen: So, wait until have you confirmation from your interpreter so that we don't miss anything you say. Thank you.
Terri: Okay, no problem. I’m sorry. I'll do better next time.
Eileen: No, no problem. We just want to catch up to you.
Terri: I was venting. I had to get it off my chest. I’m sorry.
Eileen: It's all good. I want to give the commissioners an opportunity because you have all shared so much information with us and they might have some questions or points of clarification. Joanne, did you have something that you, and I will spotlight you.
Joanne: I am really sorry. I need 30 seconds to let my dog out of the house.
Eileen: Oh! Okay. Can we take a time-out for 30 seconds?
Joanne: I'm so sorry.
Eileen: Sure, Joanne. Go.
Leanor: To say something at least we don’t have to worry about a person’s coming and going behind us, right, with our background. You just never know what’s going on behind us.
Terri: Yeah, it’s good that we have nothing else going on in the background. It really makes a big difference.
Eileen: And the reason we are pausing this is because it is very important for all three commissioners to hear everything that we’re discussing, so we don’t want to carry on without one of our commissioners with us. Perhaps this might get edited out of the recording that gets posted, but, if not, what is happened here is the beauty of the connection between the commissioners and the participants and the fact that we’re all paying attention to one another and wanting to maintain that connection. So, now Joanne is back, and now I do want to hear, because there’s been so much information, are there any questions from any of the commissioners about anything that you’ve heard? So, it seems like you’ve all been expressing yourselves very clearly, so thank you.
Are there any further comments on the features or service of VRS before we move on to the customer service aspect? Leanor?
Leanor: I would suspect or think that, to be honest, with my experience with customer s service hasn't been great. At the beginning when VRS was rolled out, and specifically the VRS was rolled out and implemented, we had people coming to our community to show us from head office, giving us an introduction to the service, and then we set up a community support system outreach for them to be able to come to the different groups, deaf groups, deaf-blind groups, a demo how to set up your VRS, how to problem solve any technical or glitchy issues. As for the personal contact, that time was wonderful, but the rules that were set up weren't to be able to go to people's homes, which meant that in the community hall or wherever the deaf people were gathering, it would say, for example, at the seniors, oh, I guess it’s time to switch, is it, at the community hall would depend on the data for wireless data provision or their WiFi, but oftentimes our the senior's hall that we used, which is at a church, didn't have any WiFi service, which meant we had to bring in our devices, our phones and laptops, and then we had to use our own data plans and hotspot, and that was one thing, like, for example, as a user, I use a desktop. The problem is that connectivity is there and that they couldn’t come over, and that’s one, I would say, one con of this, that there wasn’t a traveling geek squad for the VRS. I would think that that would be something that would need to happen again like it did before, to help individuals become more familiar and not have to do it on Zoom. I understand due to COVID and the protocols therein necessitated that approach, but my experience wasn't the greatest. There was a time that I had an individual, a problem reconnecting to my service and I had to reenter my password and I needed some technical support. I didn't remember how to open it up and I had to go through the website, customer service portal and engage there, and then it was, I was told that the person wasn't skilled in ASL, and it was a person in LSQ who was learning ASL on VRS as a second or even third language that was on my call. Their first language was not ASL. It was LSQ and then French and maybe ASL and English, so I did my best to explain to that interpreter, and then I was asked, well, I think I know how to do this, would you give me permission to remote into your computer and let me take, assume control, and I said, fine, sure, go for it, and I guess they knew what they were doing from a technical point of view, but at the same time, as they were checking in things that had nothing to do with the app itself. They were going into other areas of the computer, and I said, what are you doing? So, I, I, it kind of messed up my settings and so on, and I didn’t want them doing that, and they, I said stop, please don't do that anymore. I had to tell them stop, and I don't want that. I don't want you to continue. I just want to know how to get into my password. I just need my password back. Oh, that's what you want. Then they gave me the link on the website, and I went back in and I found out how to get my password back, but at the same time, first of all, it wasn't that the customer service was expecting to be held in both languages, but I was there in ASL and this person wasn't ASL fluent, and they weren't my, they didn't respect my boundaries.
Interpreter: Switching interpreters. Yeah.
Eileen: Thank you.
Leanor: And then we just also, I had another issue, too, where the contact information was edited on the app, as well, so I had then proceeded to explain and sent an email in to customer service and had that dialogue with them to explain what was going on. They didn't want to do this over video platform to have the conversation, they wanted over email, and they gave me many, many, many screenshots of trying to lead me on step by step on how to set up the list, on how to do this, on how to do that, and I was inundated with screenshots. So, I was trying to tell them specifically what my issue was, that I just needed it, it seemed like a very simple resolution to have something clicked on and deleted, and they said, no, that it wasn't permissible, then I was trying to explain again I just needed it seemed to be edited and I just needed this rectified, and it was almost as if the customer service person who was responding to the emails was just trying to look at keywords as opposed to the entire picture and then just taking those keywords and then basically plopping in those screenshots, like I said, and, again, thinking that, for myself, maybe not possible and able to follow along with the English and the email as to what they were trying to describe, so again going back and having that conversation again, so it was just very frustrating for myself and just to the point where I didn’t have a resolution, and it got to the point where I was so frustrated I just said, oh, forget about it. So, I did notice that the one contact was edited. The other one was taken, was deleted from it, as well as my video mail message. Both were removed, as well, and I just only wanted the one deleted. I didn’t want them back taken away, so again I had to go back and check in with them and again the conversation back and forth just wasn't clear because I kept having to follow up every couple of months. I kept having to look on the schedule and keep following up and making sure and telling them that I didn't want to have this type of discussion anymore on this way, and they just weren't paying attention to what my needs were and trying to resolve, and I had to then be left on my own devices to try to resolve the problem myself, so I wasn't satisfied with how that process occurred. If I was able to actually converse with a person, I think at that point it would have been clear communication. I think we could have had a dialogue on how to resolve the issue, so I was not satisfied in how customer service was being conducted. I think more training needs to be provided, and also being able to have deaf support within that system, as well. I will turn it over. I'm not sure if Terri or Noella, have you had experience with, with, with customer service? Oh, sorry, sorry. I'm jumping the gun here. Okay, I can wait. I apologize.
Eileen: So, Terri is speaking and I know Noella wanted to share, so can we just, I do believe Noella had her hand up first, so we will go to Noella first and then --
Leanor: Oh, absolutely, yes, yes, go Noella first.
Terri: Okay. No problem. I will wait for Noella to be done.
Leanor: I'm done on my end, so we’re good to move on.
Eileen: Noella? Go ahead, Noella.
Interpreter: I think they’re just waiting back and making sure that they have the go ahead. Okay. Yep, go ahead.
Noella: Okay, so I have noticed in my experience that when using VRS for the customer service, it looks as if they are, it’s like they are like almost like a call center, so there seems to be misunderstandings that occur and they disconnect the call very quickly, and it’s not an advertisement, it’s to be able to communicate who I am. I’m trying to explain to them who I am. I’m not trying to sell them something that I think that there’s a little bit of a misunderstanding that, usually about the second time they, they seem to understand what’s happening, so it seems like they might be newer to the position and not understanding what type of calls might be coming in, and then the video is flickering again on my end, as the interpreter, oh, yeah, and --
Eileen: You're back, Noella.
Interpreter: Just seems to be issues with the connection here she is having.
Noella: Okay, good. Perfect. Thank you.
Eileen: Thank you, Noella. We can go over to Terri now.
Terri: Okay. Yes. I’ve had kind of a unique experience because I didn't realize about the 9050 number that was involved with that. It was, I had not used that before. I’ve only ever just used the VRS and would try to kind of deal with things on my own if I had frustrations, and so then I was then informed about the number that it is there and that I wasn't aware and I didn't know at that point, so I was trying to figure out where to get that contact information for the 9050 number, and it wasn't just me who was having issues trying to find that contact information. I know other people in the community were having the same issues they were trying to figure out what is this number and what it’s for, so that part wasn't clearly communicated, and then, also, I have had some, some issues pop up a little bit. I’m trying to think here. Recently, I’m trying to of a recent experience I’ve had. I think it was a few days ago I was calling VRS to talk with a different company, and it was maybe about 5 to 10 minutes all together, and was, like I said, using a VRS interpreter, going through that conversation call and it was hard to try to catch the name the phone number and then after about 5 minutes the screen was off, and then again, they then tried to call me back because I think there was some issues with the connection. I'm not sure what was going on where they were trying to do the contact, so I tried again using a different VRS interpreter to see maybe I can call back again and try to make that contact happen, but I was trying again, could you please call this company again and didn't have really the opportunity to catch what that person's contact information was so I just needed to get that information, so again was waiting, waiting, but – yeah, sometimes when I have called to the customer service or to, sometimes you’re just waiting a while and they’re not really sure what’s kind of happening or what’s going on, that, and just kind of what Noella was just saying, too, that it’s just, again, not clear, that it’s just very easy to kind of get confused on my end, too, trying to figure that out, so I think, I think it just, being able to improve the awareness, the, just kind of the awareness out to the communities that 9050 number exists and what it’s for and who you’re going to connect to and what the purposes are for it because I did not know that and was kind of thrust into it in trying to figure that out without having that communication sent to me.
Eileen: Thank you, Terri. Before we go back to Leanor, because there’s been a lot of information, I just want to see if there’s any clarifying questions the commissioners have. Just checking in. I think the commissioners are getting a very clear picture. We are okay to go ahead. Leanor?
Leanor: Well, one thing I do want to talk about, too, in regards to the customer service, their specialty obviously is focusing on any type of technical issues in regards to the account, in regards to the app. I think they should have maybe a separate division in regards to the interpreting services specifically, for the VRS interpreters. I think there might need to be a separate kind of category so that they can receive feedback in regards to interpreters, not, and compliments, as well. I do want, if I have a really great experience with a VRS interpreter, that has made a wonderful connection, that visually everything was done very well, that, I want to be able to show that appreciation and give that compliment. I want to make sure that if that interpreter has done a great job in relaying the tone of the message from both parties, I’m just very happy to see that that happens, whatever that emotion, that being conveyed is. So, and again, how we convey that emotion, whether it’s good emotion or if we’re angry or frustrated with something, we still have to go through the interpreter, so I want to be able to give feedback and specifically about the interpreters, so it would be nice to see if within the customer service section if you’d just kind of have it separated, just kind of like what Terri was saying, too, that many people don't know that VRS has a YouTube channel and has a lot of information there. A lot of people don't even know those videos even exist, and I subscribe to the channel on YouTube, so I do see it come up on my channel, as well as, obviously they have the YouTube channel and everything is done very clearly, it’s set up well, and that they do have different topics and different individuals having conversations about these topics. Sometimes it’s not easy to search for the different topics and trying to find that, especially for someone who is deaf-blind and trying to navigate through those different topics, can be very challenging, so that’s one thing I do definitely want to add, again, is I just want to emphasize as having someone in person being able to have that outreach, being able to provide that support, being able to provide that education, again, in regard to the VRS. I know in BC we have a very high number of people who are using the service. We have a large deaf population here, so those outreach workers, for example, in Alberta, we don't have the same as we’re seeing here in BC. We did have one, but unfortunately they have resigned and I don't believe that any person has replaced them.
Eileen: I think Terri has a comment, and before Terri continues I also see that James is ready to take over signing. So, we’ll get James to start signing, and James when you're good, Terri, go ahead.
Terri: Something that comes to mind with the VRS interpreters, I have in noticed that they’re not using enough facial grammar with when they’re voicing because as a blind person we can't hear obviously. We need to see that equivalency, so the tone and affect of the hearing caller’s voice, needs to be conveyed in sign language very clearly with a lot of facial grammar to convey the meaning and intent of the message. I have noticed that a lot of the VRS interpreters don't use enough facial grammar. That’s very, very important. I feel that’s one element that’s missing in the interpretation. Also, when it comes to YouTube, we also require Braille, the use of Braille. Sometimes it’s not compatible with YouTube, and so we have to do a different template and move things around so it’s not accessible with that because it is not compatible with their Braille device or whatever device they are using, platform. That’s all I wanted to say. Thank you.
Eileen: Thank you, Terri. I see Alicia has her hand up, so I will put you on spotlight. Oh, you’re on mute, Alicia.
Alicia: Thank you. Thank you for the depth of your comments regarding the customer service. I’d like to hear from you, because, the VRS service was not set up specifically to address all of the needs of the deaf-blind community, and I hear your concerns, and I hear that to a certain extent these concerns for potentially adapting the service to better meet the needs of the deaf-blind community have been conveyed to the VRS service.
So I'm wondering if how you feel those concerns have been received and has the CAV made effort to put in place some of the suggestions you have made to them or to accommodate or to better accommodate the needs of the deaf-blind community through the VRS service, so I’m wondering if, how you feel that those concerns have been received and has the CAV made efforts to put in place some of the suggestions that you have made to them or to accommodate or to better accommodate the needs of the deaf-blind community through the VRS service.
Eileen: Leanor?
Leanor: Well, I had one of the leaders, the editors make a recommendation. One thing was that there was recognition that CAV was very reactive, meaning they didn't take the time to think about the community in general, maybe due to lack of experience. There is no deaf-blind representative on the CAV, and so that was a recommendation that was made that that was a potential or a possibility to include someone from the deaf-blind diverse or the diverse deaf groups to have some kind of representation on the CAV board. I can't speak for my friend who is indigenous or is POC or, but they did share with me their concerns, and I hope that you’ll have taken their feedback as I've conveyed to you that the VRS interpreters are very white predominantly. There’s not enough diversity in the population of the VRS interpreters and, as Terri and Noella have said, the needs of the deaf-blind, as well. There are some small things that could be needed, could be used to change but that haven't been done. One suggestion was that we, based on the U.S. experience, one of our deaf-blind community members here in Vancouver lives in, had lived in Washington, D.C., had gone to Gallaudet University, and had seen the plethora of access to different companies, to Sorenson, to Convo, and within the three state, I believe in the tri-state area, there is a special program where deaf-blind signers and users who may not be able to see the screen but their first language is still sign language but they can't see a screen, they have a communication device or a communications facilitator provided where it’s a place where they can go to, and there is a person who can see the screen there at this facility, they can read what’s being said on the screen and then provide tactile interpretation to the deaf-blind user and convey that communication. That was in Seattle, Washington, and in the state of Maryland and the DC area, and there was one other state. I forget which one it was, and they have a program in those locations where they have equipment and development in place and a different platform which is more user friendly and more accessible. So, that is one thing that was proposed by the Canadian Deaf-blind Collective some time ago, and we were hoping that it could be included or factored into the budget as a consideration as a short-term solution and development of a pilot project, perhaps, and so that when we saw that the CRTC had approved a four-year budget for CAV we were dumbfounded because nothing was there for the deaf-blind, even though we have made a recommendation, and I felt that the deaf-blind community felt they were ignored again after having shared that with us, with the deaf community, and so we’ve been supporting and advocating on their behalf because they are part of our community, even though they are deaf-blind. They sign, therefore they’re part of our community.
Eileen: Thank you, Leanor. Alicia, does that answer your question? Thank you. I do want to make sure we get an opportunity to cover the use of 911. Before we do that, Terri, did you have something?
Terri: Just one small thing that comes to mind. Please make sure that CAV asks their, you know, the deaf-blind, and don't act on the assumption because there are many, many issues and barriers regarding preferences, compatibility issues, like, you know, the background and what we talked about, some of the changes that needed to be made, because CAV isn't aware of what our particular needs of the deaf-blind community, so that's all I wanted to say. You can go ahead to the 911 issue.
Eileen: Thank you, Terri.
So, moving on to 911 and your experience using VRS to contact 911, if you’ve used VRS to contact 911, can you tell us what the experience was like and how you would improve the experience? Leanor?
Leanor: Sure. I had a direct experience with 911 from my desktop. So, it happened on April 20, 2021, I, my husband, he loves being in the hot tub. He was down there by himself. He came back up, didn’t say anything. A little bit of time went by, and then he started being a little discomfort. Well, I think I fainted, and he fell down, but he said it was a quick thing. He got back up and said nothing, but during the day, it was obvious he wasn't himself, but he wouldn't go to the hospital. He was stubborn. The next morning, it was obvious he needed to go. He couldn't get out of bed, so I called 911 using VRS, and I was very, very thankful. That was a very positive experience for me. It just so happened we got the right person on VRS. They informed me that they were going to be having their break shortly, but they said that they were going to stay on the call until I had completed everything on the call to 911, so we got connected through to the BC Hospital service via 911. We got on, in touch with an operator, explained the situation, we had a back and forth, what were the symptoms, what had happened to Henry, did he hit his head, did he hurt himself, you know, the normal questions that you’re asked when they’re triaging, and apparently he seemed to be okay but there was going to be a wait time of about 25 to 30 minutes because there was a lot of calls due to COVID and emergencies, so they were triaging the calls so they didn't determine or determine that this call wasn't as urgent as it was. So, this interpreter told us they were going to stay on until they were connected to someone in the hospital. So, as this went on, I provided my text number to the interpreter so they could give it to the dispatcher when they got connected. So, they got connected to the dispatcher, and we said that, you know, the hospital is supposed to have a video remote service within the hospital, it’s a device that provides interpreting, but that person had no idea about that, so that was something new that had just been rolled out the previous year. Again, put on hold, and then we were informed that the hospital, they were sending an ambulance on the way, and the interpreter said they would stay a little bit longer, and we were waiting for the ambulance as it was dispatched, and now the ambulance pulled up to our place. I informed the interpreter that they could go because the ambulance was here, the call disconnected, and now I was texting with the dispatcher and the ambulance personnel. They came in and knocked at the door, and they came downstairs to get my husband because I don't have a doorbell. My doorbell wasn't working, so they came in, and everything worked out well, and they also had an interpreter at the hospital for us when we got there, so overall it was a very positive experience for me, and when and before the interpreter left on the VRS call they informed me that they hoped that everything would be okay with us, and there was that human connection on that call. I had a very positive experience from that VRS call with that VRS interpreter, and, you know, we were on our computer and, you know, it was a lot better than it was a year and half ago, so I just wanted to share that. So, I think that Terri has a direct experience with her use of 911. I'm not sure about Noella. She may have a different one that she might want to share, so I’ll turn it over to either of them.
Eileen: Thank you, Leanor, and, let’s see, Terri, do you have an experience to share?
Terri: Yes, I would, please. Yeah. Wow, my experience was quite the experience. It was quite terrible. It happened five years ago. We were, it was just before the, you know, and now we’re here five years later. I had fallen down and fractured my ankle, like, I broke it, and I didn't have a device. I had to use my iPhone to make the 911 call. I didn't have a device handy other than that, and I did the 911 call on VRS using my iPhone, so I dialed out, informed the operator I needed to call 911, and the caller, or the interpreter, was from Ontario. They asked me where I was from. I said I'm located here in New Westminster, British Columbia, and the interpreter said, oh, please wait, and I kept getting handed off to four or five different interpreters until I was handed off to the appropriate area. I never forget that because I was in such great pain, and my eyes were strained, and I was dizzy, and I was fatigued, and the pain was so bad, and I had to navigate this situation, and I had trouble seeing. My one eye was really having trouble making sense of all of this, and so the interpreter was going to stay on and try and stay on until the call was completed. I thanked them for that, and I was trying to get this all figured out and, you know, I was, my eyes were playing games on me, and then it was about 30 minutes after that the ambulance came by, and the first responders came by, and my one eye that’s of any good I could hardly see out of it. It was so heavy, it was so blurry. I had trouble looking or seeing. It was just terrible, and so I was imagining, you know, oh, sorry, what happened here? I saw something flash on the screen. Oh, we’re going to change interpreters.
Eileen: It’s time to change.
Interpreter: Okay. We’ll change interpreters. Great. Okay. I just saw the screens move so it distracted me a bit, but that’s okay. We’ll switch now.
Terri: Okay, so again, just trying to envision when I was going through that experience that, again, I had to go through and say my address, I had to go through so many different times, and my one good eye was not cooperating the way I needed it to be in that time so I just think that we need to have a bit more improvement when it comes to the different locations, the different postal codes in the phones or anything having all that information right there handy, ready to go, whether that be on the iPad, whether, whatever device that is, for anyone who is deaf-blind because if there is an emergency that happens and, let’s say, I'm not in the house and I’m not able to see clearly on whatever device that I have, that is going to be a barrier in order for me to be able to use the service. So, and again, having someone have to try to explain to me where it is on the screen and what do I need to press and it’s, it’s, yeah, so, again, it’s, I'm just trying to think again from a deaf-blind person's perspective how to be able to have that connection through VRS and using 911 service, but, again, thank you for your time. Again, my experience was quite awful what I had to go through for that, but thank you for giving me the opportunity to be able to explain my experience to everybody here.
Eileen: Thank you for sharing your experience, and I am sorry that you had to go through something like that, because that sound like a very challenging thing to go through, so I appreciate you sharing what was pretty difficult.
Terri: You are very welcome. I'm very happy to have the opportunity to do so.
Eileen: Noella, do you have any experiences to share?
Noella: Yes, I do. I actually have two experiences. One was a text to 911, and one was using VRS 911. So, there have been, the text 911 system that they do have set up that I have used in the past, and it’s a program that was developed and set up for emergency line only, I believe, and that it connects you right to, an operator right to the deaf community and so they are able to, they do have apps on the phone that you can use for the text 911, and then there was a time it was my husband, actually. My husband is deaf, and there were a few times that there was a fall and I wasn't able to help him because I am actually quite shorter than he is. He is a big man, and he is much taller than I am, and he is well, like around 200 pounds, and I'm just not able to physically lift him or transport him if he did trip, so we have had to use the text 911 in the past and then wait, and the first time I had called and it was the response was done in voice and so we had to hang up, and probably a few second later they ended up transferring over to their texting service, but it was quite slow. I had to be very patient with it. My husband wasn't able to stand, and he’s kind of like what’s being said, what’s happening, what’s happening, as I'm trying to have this text conversation, so you can imagine how frustrating it was to try to be very patient throughout this, and I said you just need to give me a few minutes. They’re asking me very specific questions about medical needs and what not, so it was very challenging for me to try to do this right over text while also trying to make sure that my husband is okay and that he’s maintaining consciousness or that if he had fallen asleep and then trying to relay all of that communication back and forth until the first responders were able to arrive and be able to provide that assistance. So, yes. So, that was that experience, and then about two months ago, I was visiting someone in Vancouver, and I was staying at a friend's place at their home, and they have a small dog, and ended up having to, at my friend's house, I ended up having to go to the hospital because trying to find an interpreter who was available but unfortunately no one was so we were trying to figure that out and trying to come up with backup plans because we had to be kind of brought into the hospital because of a dog bite, and then for myself also again because I'm blind in my one eye and the bite happened on my good side so I'm having to cover that good side because it was bleeding so having to be very, very close to the screen for the VRS, but the VRS screen was so small that I needed it to be much larger on my screen to be able to see it clearly, so I’m trying to kind of look through and around the bite so that I could try to see it clearly while they’re trying to fix what was going on. Oh, it was, so I had to end up asking my friend to come in and just be able to provide a little bit of assistance in the, for communication because the VRS interpreter wasn't very qualified. I had to disconnect with them and they ended up transferring over to a second interpreter, which we did have a good connection and were able to kind of work through. They were able to sign slower and kind of give me the communication that I needed so that I was able to be able to see. I had kind of a bandage over part of my eye, so trying to be able to see through and around the bandage and also having my friend with me to provide a little bit of that support, too, because there was a lot of things that I was missing, again, trying to be able to see all of this clearly while having a dog bite on my good side and part of it covered.
Eileen: Thank you, Noella.
Noella: So, I think that’s been my experience.
Eileen: Yeah, that quite the experience. I appreciate you sharing that with us. Leanora, you have something to add?
Leanora: Yes, I do just want to clarify something, as well. Some deaf-blind individuals, such as Noella, they may not prefer to use 911 for over VRS and instead that they would rather use their phone, for example, because like if you have a laptop or a larger monitor, then you’re able, or even an iPad with a larger screen, it’s just unfortunately you’re not able to see clearly where you have the one little icon on the screen where it says text or call 911. You’re just not able to see that clearly on smaller device. So, like Terri did try to say that she was trying to put in that I need to get on to 911 by using the app but again trying to connect, but then, but she was connected to someone in Ontario, unfortunately. So, again, just wanting to put for deaf people who, or deaf-blind individuals, they might not know that on the phone that they can be used kind of as a location device, as well. So, you don't always have to depend exactly on the exact address that’s inside the system or inside of our account. I do have deaf friend that I visit in Ottawa, actually, and they recently moved there from Vancouver, and she didn’t think to update her VRS contact information with the account, even though she, and she had moved about a few months prior to that, so it ended up happening that there was an emergency while I was visiting her, and there was a gentleman who ended up falling and ended up falling in front of their apartment door, and we were able to see that, and we were obviously concerned for their well-being. We couldn't leave so ended up having to call 911 using VRS on using that person's phone, and the person I'm referring to is not deaf-blind so they were, you know, explaining the situation, calling VRS and they were saying, oh, are you calling from Vancouver? No, I'm in Ottawa, Ontario, so then gave the new address to actually where they are and relayed that information and then relayed the situation as to what was occurring. So, again, both ended up needing to have both police and ambulance arrive, but they weren't able to get out of where they live because the person had fallen right in front of their door, so trying to kind of get out onto the balcony and then the police had the key to be able to come in so they had kind of a master key to be able to get in. The person, unfortunately, was inebriated, and that's why they kind of passed out in front of the door, but it was just one thing to kind of think about, that sometimes whatever the information is in the actual account isn't actually the physical location the person may be in. They could be out walking somewhere and see something occur and needing to contact 911 as a good samaritan. So, again, just trying to keep that in mind, too, as a piece of feedback that knowing that in today's day and age that, like, think about an Apple watch, for example, that we do have an emergency button on the Apple watch that you can connect to 911 for. There are so many different new technology out there that I don't think CAV has quite caught up to that yet, so kind of want to put that out there as a piece of feedback.
Eileen: Thank you.
Leanora: Yeah, so it is a neat feature that we have in today's technology and it would be great if CAV would get caught up with it, as well.
Eileen: Excellent. I think Terri might have something else to add, but before we go to you, Terri, I just want to see if the commissioners have any questions just so we can get caught up? Okay. The commissioners are caught up, so go ahead, Terri.
Terri: Yes. I did hear from one individual and their experience with using VRS, too. They have Usher Syndrome. Sorry, did I say it wrong? Sorry. VRI. VRI? So, they have Usher Syndrome, and there was an emergency that they had to go to the hospital for, and once they arrived, they were trying to, I'm trying to remember how, I think the screen was a bit smaller that they were trying to use, and the VRI was too far away, the screen that they were using, the device they were using, they weren't able to see the interpreter clearly, and it was quite small, as well, because, again, with them with Usher Syndrome, I mean, there’s many, many different, when looking with people who do have Usher Syndrome, how they are able to use their vision is very different for every different person, so, again, trying to get it set up so that they had it within their visual field, so I know that that was a frustrating experience for them, too, and then, also, one more thing, too, as, again, as a deaf-blind person I just want to put in there, too, if having to use VRS and trying to call 911, if my eye is fatigued or if I had fallen or something of that nature where, how, I'm just trying to think of how this can be used and just trying to figure out something that can be done if I'm not able to depend on the vision that I do have because if that’s compromised then what else am I able to do?
Eileen: Very valid question. We are coming to the end of our time here today. We would like to go through sort of one last opportunity for closing thoughts. So, we’ll start with Noella.
Noella: Sure. Yes. I do want to say that just we were talking, you were mentioning something about VRI, Terri. That’s not what we’re talking about today. Today we’re talking about VRS. Totally different service. So, I just want to just put that in. We’re just supposed to share experiences in regard to VRS, so just want to be very focused on VRS instead of bringing up examples from a VRI experience.
Eileen: Thank you, Noella. Any further closing thoughts or comments? Leanora?
Leanora: I think I have a message virtually that I think is very important. I think you need to see people as real people, that having a document and having the recommendations put in and then having the responses to questions and then something that I have learned a lot, as well, over the past year and a half and looking at different topics and concerns that have been brought forward, as well, so the point is, again, coming back to access and having options as to what that access looks like, looking at the different communication levels. Not only are we just seeing deaf but we have deaf-blind, we have hard of hearing, we have hard of hearing people who have vision loss, as well, so there are so many, you can't paint everyone with the same brush. We do have the president of our national deaf-blind association, as well, and for themselves, they are hard of hearing but they have a cochlear implant and they don't sign very much, but they are able to read text, so, again, . So again just seeing how there's different types of communication methods and different types of styles that can be used. Some of them are able to hear from going from voice to text and just being able, some of them have lost their ability to read the text, as well, that they’re not able to use the VRS, unfortunately. That’s not a service that they’re able to utilize. So, again, for that specific person and others like them, they don't have access, so I think we just need to keep that in the forefront of our mind, too, is not only commission but CAV as well as the different CRTC staff who are involved is just also knowing that there are so many different communication methods or so many different types of people who need to use this access to these services and just being able to have more than just one option available to us is to have those choices, so whether that ‘s through a phone company, through an internet provider. Again, looking at the United States, they have five different VRS companies in the States that people who live there are able to utilize.
Eileen: Thank you, Leanora. Oh, sorry.
Leanora: Just a little bit more left and then we’re just going to switch interpreters. In the United States they even have a specialized interpreting service for U.S. federal government workers, so, you know, the feel, the comfort level in being able to select the provider of your choice is one thing that’s going to be a challenge going forward. They say, well, we don't need a deaf-blind representative on the board. Well, we don't need an indigenous member on the board. Whatever. That’s not acceptable, right? You know, in this day and age, in this day and age, with the truth and reconciliation movement going on, you know, we need to include everyone. Everyone needs to be included, especially folks with disability, according to the Accessible Canada Act. So, that’s my last comment. Those are my last words.
Eileen: Thank you, Leanora. Terri, any final thoughts from you?
Terri: Partly to what Leanora mentions, my comments for the deaf-blind community, we would like to be involved with the CRTC or CAV, to have a voice, to provide a lived experience, to provide that knowledge and to be, you know, on par with the deaf community. You know, if there’s going to be someone who has lost their hearing, it’s not the same as someone who has a lived experience being deaf-blind. There’s a difference because the similar, the experiences are different. The person maybe had their voice at one time, could hear at one time, now has since lost their hearing or lost their voice. We as a deaf-blind community, have lost our hearing and our sight, and we need to be involved with the changes that are going to take place. It’s my desire to see equitable parity on this level, and, like Leanor said, we don't want CAV or the CRTC to do what they think is best for us. We want them to listen and take in the suggestions from the deaf-blind community. What changes can we help make so that it’s compatible and meets our needs before you implement something. If you implement something, you might overlook something and that would not be to the satisfaction of the deaf-blind community. Having their input is important. We would like to see customer satisfaction and a building of a rapport, and that's all I am going to say. There are many other things I would like to be able to say or speak to, but I can't think of them all at this moment in time, but I share the same sentiments as Leanor.
Eileen: Thank you so much, Terri. Noella, any final things to add?
Noella: No, I don't. No.
Eileen: Well, we thank all three of you very, very much for how much you shared, how much personal information you shared. It’s greatly appreciated. We, our next steps essentially is that the CRTC will be adding the recordings of this after we’ve completed the transcripts and captions.
That will be posted on the YouTube channel. Following that, a new phase will be introduced to the VRS review so that you have the opportunity to comment on the videos and the opportunity to comment on the content, including any clarifications to the interpretation of what was communicated today.
So, that concludes this formal session. Again, we really appreciate your participation. I believe the recording will be stopped now.
This video is the recording of the virtual discussion sessions that took place on January 25, 2023 with three CRTC Commissioners and:
Session 1: Members of the Canadian Association of the Deaf
Session 2: Member of the Canadian Deaf Grassroots Movement
Session 3: Members of the Canadian DeafBlind Collective for VRS
The purpose of the virtual discussion sessions was to ensure VRS users have a fulsome opportunity to communicate their experience with using the service with CRTC Commissioners. The discussions focused on the lived experiences of people who use VRS with the objective of understanding their needs, how the service is and is not meeting those needs, and how it can be improved.
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