ARCHIVÉ -  Transcription - Winnipeg, Manitoba - 2002-02-05

            TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

  FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

       TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

        TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU

           CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

 

 

 

                       SUBJECT / SUJET:

 

 

Multiple broadcasting applications & BROADCASTING applications further to Public Notice 2001-79 "Call for applications for a broadcasting licence TO CARRY ON A RADIO PROGRAMMING UNDERTAKING TO SERVE WINNIPEG, MANITOBA".

 

MULTIPLES DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION ET DEMANDES EN radiodiffusion suite à l'avis public CRTC 2001-79 "APPEL DE DEMANDES DE LICENCE DE RADIODIFFUSION VISANT L'EXPLOITATION D'UNE ENTREPRISE DE PROGRAMMATION DE RADIO POUR DESSERVIR WINNIPEG (MANITOBA)".

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                                            TENUE À:

 

Winnipeg Convention Centre                  WinnipegConvention Centre

PanAm Room                                      Salle PanAm

375 York Avenue                                  375, avenue York

Winnipeg, Manitoba                              Winnipeg (Manitoba)

 

 

5 February, 2002                                  le 5 février 2002

 

 

 

                                               Volume 2

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

                Canadian Radio‑television and

             Telecommunications Commission

 

             Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

             télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

                   Transcript / Transcription

 

 

Multiple broadcasting applications & BROADCASTING applications further to Public Notice 2001-79 "Call for applications for a broadcasting licence TO CARRY ON A RADIO PROGRAMMING UNDERTAKING TO SERVE WINNIPEG, MANITOBA".

 

MULTIPLES DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION ET DEMANDES EN radiodiffusion suite à l'avis public CRTC 2001-79 "APPEL DE DEMANDES DE LICENCE DE RADIODIFFUSION VISANT L'EXPLOITATION D'UNE ENTREPRISE DE PROGRAMMATION DE RADIO POUR DESSERVIR WINNIPEG (MANITOBA)".

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Barbara Cram                           Regional Commissioner for Manitoba and Saskatchewan /

Conseillère régionale pour le Manitoba et le Saskatchewan

Ronald Williams                       Commissioner / Conseiller

Andrew Cardozo                       Commissioner / Conseiller

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Joe Aguiar                               Hearing Manager / Gérant de

                                               l'audience

Gary Krushen                           Secretary / secrétaire

Peter McCallum                       Legal Counsel /

                                               conseiller juridique

 

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

 

Winnipeg Convention Centre      Winnipeg Convention Centre

PanAm Room                          Salle PanAm

375 York Avenue                      375, avenue York

Winnipeg, Manitoba                  Winnipeg (Manitoba)

 

 

5 February, 2002                      le 5 février 2002

 

 

                              Volume 2

                                    

 

TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES

 

                                                                                            PARA NO.

 

PHASE I

 

 

APPLICATION BY / APPLICATION PAR

 

by N.I.B. Cable FM Inc. /                                                                 1002

par N.I.B. Cable FM Inc.

 

by CKVN Radiolink System Inc. /                                                     1344

par CKVN Radiolink System Inc.                                                           

 

by HIS Broadcasting Inc. /                                                               1624

par HIS Broadcasting Inc.

 

by Red River College Radio /                                                            1852

par Red River College Radio

 

 

                           Winnipeg, Manitoba /

                           Winnipeg, Manitoba

 --- Upon resuming on Tuesday, February 5, 2002 at 0830 / L'audience reprend le mardi 5 février 2002 à 0830

 

999           THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will recommence our hearing.  I have just one matter to deal with.  We will be adjourning today at noon at approximately 12:15 because the panel members have a teleconference.  So just for your information, when it comes to be an appropriate time for the break around 12:15, we will be breaking.  Mr. Secretary, you have some housekeeping matters.

 

1000       THE SECRETARY:  Yes, thank you Madam Chair.  The Commission has received a copy of a letter to Mr. W.E. Evans, who is the Engineering Consultant for Red River College.  The letter will be placed onto the public record and -- the panel has agreed to place the letter onto the public record and a copy of it has been provided to representatives of the Red River College application.

 

1001       At this point, I would like to call the first applicant this morning.  The first application we will be hearing today is by N.I.B. Cable FM Inc. for licence to operate an English language FM radio station in Winnipeg.  The new station would operate on frequency 107.9 Mhz.  That's an effective radiated power of 200 Watts.

 

APPLICATION / APPLICATION

 

1002       MR. McCREA:  Good morning, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission.  I'm Paul McCrea, President and CEO of N.I.B. 95.5 Cable FM Inc.  I would like to introduce the members of the Cool 107.9 FM team.

 

1003       Our financial consultant is Jeff Martin of Deloitte & Touche.  Peter Young is our news director.  For 18 years Peter was an internationally known broadcaster and producer for CTV covering events across Canada and the United States, as well as overseas.

 

1004       Dan Donahue, a Winnipeg producer, arranger, composer and musician.  Dan is a Juno winner.  He has been a finalist for this prestigious award for a total of six times.  He has won the Prix award for distinguished services to the arts in Manitoba.  Dan is a board member of the Manitoba Audio Recording Industry Association and the Manitoba Chamber Orchestra.  Dan will work with us to produce various station-initiated projects on an ongoing basis.

 

1005       Madam Chair and members of the Commission, we are pleased to present our application for a commercial broadcast undertaking by N.I.B. 95.5 Cable FM Inc., Cool 107.9 FM.  Our new service will provide a wide diversity of programming to the Winnipeg community and will contribute to the strength of the Canadian broadcast system. 

 

1006       The applicant of a new service needs to demonstrate clearly to the Commission that there is a demand and market for the proposed service, as set out in the Broadcast Act and the commercial radio policy 1998-41.  Our application meets all of these criteria as we will outline in this presentation.

 

1007       The history of this station is worth review.  Its primary purpose has been to develop talent.

 

1008       N.I.B. 95.5 Cable FM Inc. was founded in 1993 to provided practical experience for broadcast and production students of N.I.B., the National Institute of Broadcasting.  This station was first distributed by Videon Cable TV and broadcast 24 hours per day, year round from 1993 until 1998, when it began broadcasting at 92.9 FM.

 

1009       At its inception, it was associated with the N.I.B., a school founded in Winnipeg some 40 years ago.  Names associated with the school through its founder, Ed McCrea, include Lorned Greene, Andrew Allen, John Drainie and Fletcher Markle, huge names in Canadian broadcast history.  In total, approximately 2,000 grads went on to work in the broadcast and communications field.  The contribution N.I.B. made to the broadcast industry is considerable.

 

1010       On a personal level, I began teaching broadcast arts for N.I.B. 20 years ago.  Many of the alumni enjoyed distinguished careers.  I am proud of the number of successful graduates our school produced.  The McCrea family has been involved in broadcasting in this province for the past 60 years.  By approving this application, you will assure that we remain involved in many years to come.

 

1011       The station already has a history of public and community service.  Over the years, we have worked with the United Way, The Canadian Cancer Society, the Canadian Diabetes Society, the Canadian National Institute of the Blind, and the Manitoba Marathon.

 

1012       We have also promoted several cultural organizations, for instance, the Millennium Library project, the Manitoba Chamber Orchestra, the Museum of Man and Nature and the Manitoba Theatre for Young People.  We have promoted arts groups and music festivals and activities.  They include the Winnipeg Folk Festival, CoreFest and the Manitoba Jazz Festival.

 

1013       Is there a demand for our service?  This application has had the benefit of developing much of the proposed programming and identifying an audience on the campus instructional station.  Simply put, we know who our audience will be because our audience already exists and they have responded to the existing program elements already aired.

 

1014       The station has conducted on air promotions that call on listeners to register on the Internet using alphanumeric codes given out over the air.  They have provided demographic information.  From this information, we have determined that 80 percent of the people who have registered are 33 to 55 plus years of age.  They are 60 percent male and 40 percent female.  Therefore, rather than forecasting who might listen, we can tell you who is, in fact, listening.  We have already heard from Corus during this hearing that this is the most under-served radio audience.

 

1015       We can further identify the demand for the proposed service and the resulting support that the community has shown for it.  For 14 days, December 28th, 2001, to January 10th, 2002, we broadcast a call to our audience asking them to show their support.  We received 410 letters of support, a significant number considering the demographic and the short time period. Secondly, the continued increase in the BBM "other" category since our sign-on, and thirdly, the large database built on the Internet through on-air promotion.

 

1016       We also received hundreds of phone calls and emails from listeners asking us to "keep up the good work" and to increase our power, enabling our signal to be heard throughout Winnipeg.  The comments have specifically indicated that our audience appreciates the alternative music and information programming we provide.

 

1017       On Canadian Talent Development, since the time of our application submission we have, in fact, launched "A Week of Good Sax," an annual event promoting dozens of local musicians at over a dozen venues in Winnipeg, held over a one-week period in November.  We have showcased regional and local artists on weekly features and in regular rotation.  We have conducted interviews and promoted their performances within our community. 

 

1018       The station produced two seasons, some 40, one-hour episodes of a program called "Cue-tape," with live performance and interviews with local and national artists.  We have launched a new program in association with the Manitoba Theatre for Young People, a nationally renowned theatre for children.  "Radio Heads" and "Radio Waves" weekly programs written and produced by MTYP students aged 11 through 19, that include interviews, current events, radio dramas, music and poetry.  Each show contains themes determined by the students, including popular culture, life choices and human rights.  These programs will also serve to promote the theatre company's programs on an ongoing basis.

 

1019       We have expanded our education associations to include Anokiiwin College, a college delivering courses to students of Aboriginal descent.  Once trained, journalism students of this college will be assigned news stories to file for the station.

 

1020       We will further provide opportunities for CTD through contributions to the Canadian Talent Development fund and through station-initiated events and activities.

 

1021       We commit to contributing further capital based on a minimum of five percent of net revenue on an annual basis throughout the term of our licence.  The intent is to generate $500,000 towards this during the first term of the licence.  These funds will go to arts associations and station-initiated events and activities.  We consider this approach to be innovative and financially responsible.

 

1022       I would like to call on Dan Donahue to further outline some Canadian Talent Development issues.

 

1023       MR. DONAHUE: I've worked in this region for close to 20 years as a producer -- multimedia, I would say ‑‑ lived and worked in a lot of different situations, actually.  I've never experienced a place that has demonstrated such a wealth of variety in terms of its musical culture.  I think in the past what's tended to happen is that we've honoured that in a somewhat non-commercial vein, meaning with certain festivals et cetera, but we've never really approached the potential in terms of what a city like this has to offer in terms of music that comes at it from so many different directions.

 

1024       We certainly are the festival capital of Canada when it comes to musical festivals.  And what most impressed me about this application is that it really took into serious consideration the fact that the city had so much to offer in that regard and it wasn't going to take a local contribution lightly.  It wasn't paying lip service to it.

 

1025       I've been involved with many other initiatives which have been Canadian Talent Development oriented, which in fact did pay lip service.  Projects were produced and they were more or less passed off because it was part of their obligation to their licence. 

 

1026       I see so much potential in really delving into what our musical culture can certainly assert, and being that I work in multi-genres, that being classical, pop, jazz, choral, what have you, I think I'm well experienced to be able to say that, and that we have tended to ignore just the broad variety of choices that we in fact have to offer. 

 

1027       And I mean, there are the usual ideas that are tossed around, such as compilation albums and what have you, but I'd like to think outside the box somewhat.

 

1028       We have funding agencies that can assist in producing recorded work through FACTOR, Manitoba Film and Sound.  I'd like to see those enhanced so that we can in fact produce even better quality albums because at this stage of the game I think that's one of the serious problems we really have.  We just don't have a capital to produce the albums that are, in fact, that competitive.

 

1029       Any assistance that we can receive in regards to the contributions made to the CAB, I believe, would be more than welcome and certainly essential in terms of where we're coming from.

 

1030       Having sat on these organizations and these various boards, I'm more than committed to what is happening here, and it's something that you cannot focus on the lowest common denominator and hope that that's going to appeal to an awful lot of people because it does preclude somewhat that we do ignore all these groups that might have been seen as being somewhat peripheral.

 

1031       I don't see them that way at all and I think the cultural make-up of this town and the response to the multi-genre festivals we do have here, is ample proof of that.

 

1032       MR. McCREA:  In addition to these initiatives, our senior staff will continue to mentor recent graduates.  Our station will provide employment for broadcast, communications and marketing graduate students, enabling a career entry point that is increasingly limited under industry conditions.  With seasoned broadcast professionals working and directing recent graduate employees, we will assist in developing these careers.

 

1033       We expect that some of our staff will, from time to time, move to new opportunities and therefore we expect to have ongoing openings.  We will also create summer job opportunities for students of training institutions.  Eighty percent of the station's music will come from Category 21, Pop, Rock and Dance.  This music will primarily include soft rock, rock and roll, rhythm and blues, jazz rock and folk rock.  We currently play lots of album tracks that are highly recognizable to our listeners but are not typically played on commercial radio.  Forty percent of this content will be Canadian artists and we will use as much local music as possible to reach this.

 

1034       The remaining 20 percent of the station's music will come from Category 34, Jazz and Blues.  The station currently plays many of the classic jazz artists, Duke Ellington, Lena Horne, Ella Fitzgerald, Dizzy Gillespie, Oscar Peterson, Lenny Breau to name a few.  We combine these artists with current jazz artists like Diana Krall and John Pizzarelli and we'll seek out Canadian and particularly local artists for spotlight features. 

 

1035       We believe with the number of new artists in this music category we can eventually maintain the 40 percent Canadian content we have committed to in this category.

 

1036       The station will provide daily newscasts delivered in peak listening periods, national, regional and local stories from a local perspective.

 

1037       In addition, we will continue to produce approximately six hours a week of special spoken word programs outlined in our application.  This will provide further diversity of programming and at the same time will provide significant profile to important community events.

 

1038       I would like to cite an example of a recent episode of Smart Winnipeg.  Shortly after the September 11th crisis in the U.S., we had Rob Reimer, national leader of Information Security Services with PriceWaterhouseCoopers, as a guest.  Also on that show, the director of the National Research Council, talking about the virology lab, safety and test procedures for such things as anthrax.  We received several comments.  People were concerned about anthrax as a result of recent events in the U.S.

 

1039       I'd like to call on Peter Young at this time to describe the focus of our news coverage.

 

1040       MR. YOUNG:  Thank you, Paul.  It's the intention of Cool 107.9 FM news department to focus on local news coverage in a more comprehensive and extensive manner than is evident in our city's FM market today.  It is also our mandate to reinforce that news coverage with field reporters and live coverage broadcasters, which is something also that is very rare in any FM market across the country today.

 

1041       Cool 107 FM news would also continue to provide ongoing mentoring possibilities, as we do now, for graduate journalism or broadcast students to work as field reporters or as newscasters within our actual newsroom.  Our Cool 107 FM news staff would continue, as we already are doing, to act as instructors at MTYP and Anokiiwin College.

 

1042       MR. McCREA:  There's been continued growth in advertising revenue in the Manitoba marketplace.  Continued growth is predicted by the industry for the next several years.  Approximately 28 percent of the ad revenue in the province is national.  Our station is projecting only six percent of revenue to come from this source. 

 

1043       We are expecting much of our revenue to come from new initiatives rather than simply competing with other stations in a market.  We will create advertising and promotional opportunities.  An example of this is Smart Winnipeg, a technology show the station currently produces.  We have secured sponsorship for this show with a telecom company to the tune of approximately $100,000 in cash and services.  This capital was in addition to their existing advertising rather than deferred from another station.  It also provides us with an opportunity to create some innovative multimedia content for the Internet and to stream our signal.

 

1044       The station will also provide cost effective opportunities for advertising to smaller companies that might find commercial radio advertising rates restrictive.

 

1045       I will now call on Jeff Martin to comment further on the approach to forecasting revenue.

 

1046       MR. MARTIN:  Good morning.  I just wanted to quickly go through some of the financial highlights for the station.  The revenue forecasts in year one are based on a growing ability to sell spots into the local market at $25 per spot and conservatively start at just two spots per hour in the first year, growing to seven spots per hour for about 12 hours a day.

 

1047       The company has, as Paul mentioned, secured a significant sponsor for a current show produced by the station for approximately $100,000.  Year two revenues estimates include growing the broadcast period to 18 hours per day and growing the spots from seven per hour to 12 per hour, or six minutes per hour on average, still at the $25 per spot rate.

 

1048       That sales effort will be supplemented by a third salesperson being brought on in year two, and the remainder of the revenue growth throughout the forecast period is based on a combination of growth in the number of spots sold per hour, a potential increase in the rate per hour and the pursuit of additional revenue sources -- program sponsors, production revenues et cetera.

 

1049       On the expenditures side, again as mentioned, the company is committed to spending $500,000 on Canadian Talent Development over the next seven years and a minimum of five percent of the gross revenues of the station.  The station has budgeted for a significant launch campaign and annual advertising and promotion campaigns thereafter. 

 

1050       Staffing costs are described in the submission.  We expect to employ 11 full time staff in year one, growing to 16 staff in year two.  The station would, again, provide employment opportunities for broadcast, communications and marketing graduate students who would work with seasoned broadcast professionals.

 

1051       The growth in the discretionary costs will be managed to ensure that those costs are in line with the growth in revenue and the cash flows.  The other administration and broadcasting costs are reasonable based on the experience of the station operating for several years.

 

1052       Cash flows will be supplemented by an initial cash injection, which are expected to cover pre-operating expenses and initial capital expenditures and the year one cash flow deficit.  Thereafter, we expect that the station will produce positive cash flows.

 

1053       Again, cash flows will be carefully monitored by management and discretionary expenditures will only be made if cash flows allow it.  Ongoing support from shareholders and other financial partners are available.

 

1054       MR. McCREA:  And the last item I'd like to raise is Red River's application for the frequency 92.9 MHz, which we're currently operating on.  I'd ask that regardless of the outcome of this hearing ‑‑

 

1055       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. McCrea, is this an intervention against Red River?

 

1056       MR. McCREA:  No, it's not.  We are unprotected at 92.9 and we didn't intervene on Red River's application, but we did write a letter, for the record, just to say that this is going to be an issue and we'd ask that the Commission, regardless of the outcome, consider our technical brief for the other frequency.  So I just wanted to table that.

 

1057       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  It is I who will be asking you questions, Mr. McCrea, Mr. Young, Mr. Martin and Mr. Donahue.  And I will be going through programming, CTD, Cancon, the economics and then the frequency issues.

 

1058       In your application ‑‑ and when I say, Mr. McCrea, I mean everybody.  It's easier to say Mr. McCrea rather than "panel" or something like that.  In the application you referred to 90 percent of your programming being locally produced.  That of course leads up to wonder about the other 10 percent and where it would come from.

 

1059       MR. McCREA:  Well, in fact, I would say that we had left some margin for programming, primarily thinking about Canadian content and whether there were any packaged programs that we might air.  But it's more likely that 100 percent of what we'd be doing would be local.

 

1060       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you're really talking syndication of some sort?

 

1061       MR. McCREA:  Perhaps.  Showcase Canadian talent, and we left some margin for that if there was an appropriate syndicated feature that we might run.

 

1062       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Young, did you have your hand up?

 

1063       MR. YOUNG: I'm sorry.

 

1064       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Did you have your hand up to say something?  No?  Okay.

 

1065       And I guess after hearing you this morning, when I read your application, I thought that you were going to be going 24 hours a day, seven days a week and yet, when I heard you, Mr. Martin, growing the broadcast period to 18 hours per day, are you talking a graduated -- year one is going to be 12 hours a day or something, year two --

 

1066       MR. McCREA:  I think we were referring to ‑‑ we are broadcasting 24 hours a day.  This was reference to financial forecasting.

 

1067       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So this is only that advertising would only be sold --

 

1068       MR. MARTIN:  That's right.  We would expect to sell spots into at least 12 hours a day in the first year.

 

1069       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Initially? 

 

1070       MR. MARTIN:  That's right.

 

1071       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it is going to be a 24/7 broadcast?

 

1072       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1073       THE CHAIRPERSON:  In terms of the spoken word and news, I thought your application said you were going to be doing eight hours, but I heard Mr. Young say you're going to be doing six hours?

 

1074       MR. YOUNG:  No, excuse me, I don't think anywhere I said that six was the number of hours.  We intend to do eight hours of news coverage between the hours of 6:00 and noon and then afternoon drive and into early evening, to a total of at least eight hours of news coverage.

 

1075       MR. McCREA:  The six hours was probably the additional spoken word special programming that we're doing that was outlined in the application, Manitoba Theatre for Young People and Smart Winnipeg, et cetera.

 

1076       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So eight hours will be news, information, surveillance, that sort of thing.  And when you talk about concentrating on local, can you give us a percentage of the total of news, of the eight hours anyway?  Give us a percentage of the eight hours that would be local?

 

1077       MR. YOUNG:  Well, currently in the format that we have established now, we are doing almost 95 percent local and our intention would be that we would continue somewhat in that same vein in the 90 percent to 100 percent range.  In fact, sometimes now it is almost 100 percent that is local news coverage.  It would involve the young reporters covering local functions, city hall, leg(islature), things that are related to Manitobans only.

 

1078       MR. McCREA:  If we have covered a national issue, we've also put a local aspect to the story.

 

1079       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Context.  Will there be news on weekends?

 

1080       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1081       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So in the weekdays, Mr. Young, you said it would be sort of morning drive, afternoon drive?

 

1082       MR. YOUNG:  The intention would be the concentration on morning drive and afternoon drive.  However, there would still be newscasts at the top of the hour throughout the day, with bottom of the hour as well during morning and afternoon drive.

 

1083       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So can you give me numbers?  How much in morning drive?  How much in the afternoon?

 

1084       MR. YOUNG:  The intent was that there be six minutes per top and bottom of the hour of news coverage, in addition to sports, traffic and weather, which would not be counted in that six minutes per top and bottom of each hour.  So during drive, 12 minutes of news coverage per hour and then five minutes through the rest of the day at the top of the hour.  So 48 minutes in the morning of news coverage and an additional 25 throughout noon to 5:00 and then another bottom of the clock at 5:30, six minutes, and six minutes at the top of the clock at 6:00.  So about an hour and twenty minutes per day of news coverage during the weekdays.

 

1085       Then on the weekends, from noon until 5:00 on both Saturdays and Sundays, with a six o'clock major newscast on Sundays, as well.

 

1086       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And so weekdays, before six o'clock, how much, when you say on the top of the hour?

 

1087       MR. YOUNG:  Before 6:00 a.m.?

 

1088       THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, before 6:00 p.m.  You said there would be a major one at 6:00 p.m.

 

1089       MR. YOUNG:  Oh, before 6:00 p.m., I'm sorry, yes, ma'am.  Five minutes per hour from 1:00 through to 5:00, xix minutes at least at noon, and once again a major newscast, six to eight minutes at six o'clock.

 

1090       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And than I want to move into your CTD -- let me first talk about how understood your application when I read it and then you can tell me where, because I think I've misread it.

 

1091       If I understood, during the seven years, you are going to be giving the CAB the $8,000 a year, the amount that is for Winnipeg, and in addition, I thought up to $500,000 over the seven years, you would be giving the remainder, which is $444,000 to MARIA?  Have I got that correct?

 

1092       MR. McCREA:  Well, we did -- we outlined MARIA as one of the beneficiaries of this fund.  We also said that there were some station-initiated projects that we'd be undertaking as well.

 

1093       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

 

1094       MR. McCREA:  And so there would be a combination.

 

1095       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Because I understood that the additional ones -- Winnipeg Jazz, Week of Good Sax and Manitoba Theatre and those -- were going to be in addition to the $500,000, to a minimum of 5 percent of gross.

 

1096       MR. McCREA:  Actually, they were ‑‑ the Week of Good Sax was an expense.  We've launched the first one, but there were expenses to that that we considered to be Canadian Talent Development, part of that.  The other things you've mentioned, Manitoba Theatre for Young People is in addition.  So there are some ‑‑ like in terms of regular programming, which MTYP is part of, that is not considered in the Canadian Talent Development fund that we're talking about.

 

1097       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So is it $500,000 over the seven years plus a minimum of 5 percent of gross?

 

1098       MR. McCREA:  Well, no.  What we had outlined was that we anticipated that the 5 percent would equal, based on our projections, $500,000.

 

1099       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it is either $500,000 or 5 percent of gross, whichever is greater, over the seven years?

 

1100       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1101       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And then, initially consisting of $8,000 per year to the CAB over the seven years?

 

1102       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1103       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that's acceptable as a condition of licence?

 

1104       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1105       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And then the remainder, the $444,000 over seven years, you are going to provide to MARIA --

 

1106       MR. McCREA:  Mm-hmm.

 

1107       THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- and do you have a specific annual amount for that?

 

1108       MR. McCREA:  We hadn't at this point broken out the portion that would go to MARIA versus station-initiated, but a significant amount of that fund would go towards MARIA.

 

1109       THE CHAIRPERSON:  We don't usually allow people the discretion in terms of -- we allow you the discretion to propose and if it's an acceptable, CTD, then we say yes and this specific money shall go to.  So in Phase II, can you come back with a specific amount of money on MARIA?

 

1110       MR. McCREA:  Yes, yes.

 

1111       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And then you talked about the additional CTD, and I have to go through all of them.  Excuse me Mr. Donahue, we're regulators so we get into very detailed stuff that isn't necessarily following your creative wishes, but that's the necessity of the job.

 

1112       You talked about your website.  Is this website for your own station that these CTDs would go to?

 

1113       MR. McCREA:  Yes, it's a website that is branded as the station and we would be directing traffic on air and in other ways, promotional ways, to that website.  So the banner on it is the radio station, but we'd be using that site for the promotion of talent, events and things of that nature.

 

1114       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And do I understand it that the website is somehow tied in with the agreement with this telecom company?

 

1115       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1116       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And are --

 

1117       MR. McCREA:  There are services to that that are being provided that are part of this --

 

1118       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Part of the $100,000.

 

1119       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1120       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And the $100,000 that you talked about, Mr. Martin, significant sponsor.  That's one and same as the telecom company?

 

1121       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1122       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And so the $100,000 is made up of cash and services?

 

1123       MR. McCREA:  Cash and services.  Heavy component on services related to streaming, et cetera.

 

1124       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So can you break that down for me?  Cash.

 

1125       MR. McCREA:  Pardon me?

 

1126       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Cash versus services.

 

1127       MR. McCREA:  Cash is in fact a minimal.  There's about $5,000 worth of cash and about $95,000 in services.

 

1128       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And the agreement with this telecom company is with the new FM station?

 

1129       MR. McCREA:  It exists now and would carry over.

 

1130       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So there's an agreement that it would continue with the new FM if it were licensed.

 

1131       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1132       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And then you give a list of the website costs, and a couple of questions about that.  There was set-up and design at $7,500 dollars.  That's a one-time cost?

 

1133       MR. McCREA:  Yes, it is.

 

1134       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And who would be paying that?

 

1135       MR. McCREA:  Again, this is ‑‑ I mean, there are design services and other things connected with that agreement with the telecom.  So this is part of that agreement.

 

1136       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So the telecom company would be paying the set-up, the design?

 

1137       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1138       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And then there is hosting, and who would be doing that?

 

1139       MR. McCREA:  The telecom.

 

1140       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And then the streaming?

 

1141       MR. McCREA:  Telecom.

 

1142       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So the first-year cost would be that total of $20,700?

 

1143       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1144       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And then thereafter, it would be just the cost of hosting and streaming annually for the next six years?

 

1145       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1146       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you said in your application that labour, including updating, maintaining and creating content would be in your general personnel budget?

 

1147       MR. McCREA:  Well, it's absorbed in our salaries.

 

1148       THE CHAIRPERSON:  I don't know here (inaudible -- off microphone) our decision about a Barrie radio station a couple of years ago, and it was the view of the panel at that time that a website that promoted the station per se, sort of self-promotion, was not qualified.  Can you distinguish that particular decision from your use of a website so that it would qualify for CTD?

 

1149       MR. McCREA:  Well, what we had envisioned was the opportunity that with the profile connected to the station, we would be able to direct a significant amount of traffic to that website.  Primarily, again, the website would involve promoting Canadian talent, particularly local.  We've had a dozen plus artists with their CDs and information on getting their CDs on that site, and so the intent was drive traffic to it using the radio station.

 

1150       It has had the station's logo on it but I would have to review the decision you're referring to.  I'm not totally up on that, so I would have to review it and we would be prepared to make amendments to that to stay within the decision.

 

1151       THE CHAIRPERSON:  It's decision CRTC 2000-143, and then there was another one, 2000-203.  If we should find that the website does not qualify as direct CTD, would you be prepared to redirect that money to another CTD project?

 

1152       MR. McCREA:  Well, we'd certainly consider doing that, but I would think that if what we've presented is outside of a decision now that we'd probably be inclined to stay within that decision and utilized the website.

 

1153       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, the decision said if it had anything to do with the radio station, essentially.

 

1154       MR. McCREA:  Okay.  I'd have to review it, but yes, we'd be prepared to do something that ‑‑

 

1155       THE CHAIRPERSON:  There are some qualifications and I don't want to --

 

1156       On the Week of Good Sax ‑‑ now, did I hear you correctly, are you intending that what you did last year would be part of the benefits for the new FM?

 

1157       MR. McCREA:  No.

 

1158       THE CHAIRPERSON:  No?

 

1159       MR. McCREA:  No.

 

1160       THE CHAIRPERSON:  You again listed costs and they included a total of $5,600 per year -- I'm right on that?

 

1161       MR. McCREA:  Yes, that's a forecasted cost.

 

1162       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you have advertising at $3,600 a year.  Can you confirm with me that that's all to third parties?

 

1163       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1164       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And then there is a cost of a reception.  What would be the out-of-pocket costs for that?

 

1165       MR. McCREA:  We held a reception for media.  We sponsored a reception for this event for Winnipeg media, which drew television from a couple of stations, print media, and the announcement for the event was done at that time.  The artists were there and did interviews.  Most of them conducted interviews with print and television.  So we sponsored that opening reception.

 

1166       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And your out-of-pocket costs, third-party costs were about $1,000?

 

1167       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1168       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Same with the remote?

 

1169       MR. McCREA:  Yes, in fact, the remote was more production costs.  We produced a program and ran it several times during and around the event and promoted the event on air, in regular programming.

 

1170       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So the remote was a third-party cost?  You paid a third party?

 

1171       MR. McCREA:  Actually, the remote cost, in this event, it wasn't so much a remote cost but a produced feature that was aired during the event with live broadcast promoting the event and interviews with some artists.  So in fact, that one -- a remote would have been third-party and a remote next year would be a third-party cost.  In this case, this year, it wasn't.  But in the application, it would be.

 

1172       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you know we're getting into the distinction between direct and indirect costs, which of course only direct qualify as for the purpose of CTD.  So should we decide that a portion or portions of the disbursements for the Week of Good Sax are not direct, you would redirect the remainder of the money?

 

1173       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1174       THE CHAIRPERSON:  You know, I think, about this Week of Good Sax, you talked about promotion through WestJet Magazine and distribution of CDs to the passengers.  Who is going to produce the CDs and who pays for that?

 

1175       MR. McCREA:  Well, the CDs were the artists providing copies of their CDs this year and those were made available to WestJet.  So some of them were handed out on departing passengers to Winnipeg.

 

1176       THE CHAIRPERSON:  On the Winnipeg Jazz Festival, you talked about supporting it through CTD, and your application said you were in the process of developing the budget; have you done that?

 

1177       MR. McCREA:  For promoting?

 

1178       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Of developing a budget for the CTD that you would give to the Winnipeg Jazz Festival?

 

1179       MR. McCREA:  We haven't.  We will.  We'll be working with them to produce that.

 

1180       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you can't tell us how much per annum you would be directing to them?

 

1181       MR. McCREA:  I could in Phase II.

 

1182       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And give us a budget?

 

1183       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1184       THE CHAIRPERSON:  In the event that, after you've given us your breakdown, some of it does not appear to be qualified as direct CTD, would you still pursue the initiative?

 

1185       MR. McCREA:  Yes.  It fits our programming, and yes, we would.

 

1186       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you'd be prepared to redirect it if we said it was --

 

1187       MR. McCREA:  Yes, we would.

 

1188       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Then you talked about the Manitoba Theatre for Young People.  And what I see throughout your application is trying to blend instructional radio, and of course the role as a training ground versus what we look for in hard, cold commercial radio -- and I don't mean that in any sense ‑‑ but we have certainly different criteria for it.  And we talk about direct and indirect CTD.

 

1189       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1190       THE CHAIRPERSON:  It appears to me that the support of the Manitoba Theatre for Young People is more training ground for these children, young people, and therefore more an instructional radio role than it is direct CTD.

 

1191       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1192       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So should we decide that it doesn't qualify as direct CTD, would you still pursue it?

 

1193       MR. McCREA:  Yes, we didn't really consider it to be part of the CTD.  But our ‑‑ the kids of our primary audience are attending MTYP so we consider it a worthwhile programming element and we would continue it.  We didn't consider it part of CTD.

 

1194       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  On your Canadian content on Category 2 you talked about a minimum of 40 percent?

 

1195       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1196       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And are you prepared to accept a COL in that?

 

1197       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1198       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And on Category 3, what you said this morning was, if I read it correctly, a commitment to 40 percent but ‑‑ yes, it's the second last page at the top, on line 4:  "We believe with the number of new artists in this music format" -- and that's category 3 you're talking about --

 

1199       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1200       THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- "we can eventually maintain the 40 percent Canadian content we have committed to."  So what are you committing to?

 

1201       MR. McCREA:  We committed to 40 percent Canadian content in Category 2 .

 

1202       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

 

1203       MR. McCREA:  The commitment for Category 3 currently is 10 percent, so that is what the application was intended to commit to.  We think we can also, as we build this library and as we work with local artists, we can get to a 40 percent in that category as well.  And that's our intent.

 

1204       THE CHAIRPERSON:  But as a COL, you'd be prepared to go for 10 percent?

 

1205       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1206       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, I'll tell you what I told people in Hamilton at the hearing in December.  The only thing we can rely on here is COLs.  Unless there is a COL, we can't enforce it with any particular broadcast licence.  So in terms of my personal views, I will be assessing your application on the basis of 10 percent, not your good intentions.  And I want to be very clear on that, just so you know because good intentions aren't enforceable.  That's the problem.

 

1207       On your economics, the last two years your annual returns showed no revenue.  What is your current source of revenue?

 

1208       MR. McCREA:  You're saying right now as a campus station?

 

1209       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

 

1210       MR. McCREA:  Well, it has been -- partly it's been underwritten by me, and we've also had associations with the College that was paying overhead.

 

1211       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And so currently you have no advertising revenue at all?

 

1212       MR. McCREA:  Well, we do have some advertising revenue, yes.

 

1213       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And in terms of the source of that advertising revenue, what is it?

 

1214       MR. McCREA:  It's local advertisers, a few different companies. 

 

1215       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you've gotten that since August 31st?

 

1216       MR. McCREA:  There have been advertising clients since August 31st, yes.

 

1217       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you did in your application talk about the problem of a decrease in training funds and the issue.  What would be your plans if we denied this application?

 

1218       MR. McCREA:  Well, our plans would be to continue working with MTYP and with Anokiiwin College in continuing the course of what we're doing.  So this application doesn't alter our plans to continue.

 

1219       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And I put that in the context of the problem of training funds.  So the lack of training funds and availability of training funds would not inhibit your operation?

 

1220       MR. McCREA:  No.  Regardless, we are working with Anokiiwin and there is tremendous opportunity for students of that college.

 

1221       THE CHAIRPERSON:  If we did give you a licence, how long would it take you to implement?

 

1222       MR. McCREA:  Six months.

 

1223       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And both in your application and today, in particular Mr. Martin, you talked about advertising would come from new sources.  Can you give me an idea of what these new sources are?

 

1224       MR. McCREA:  I'm sorry, I'm just ‑‑ I'm not sure where you're referring to new sources.

 

1225       THE CHAIRPERSON:  I know it was in the application but then I saw it somewhere else in terms of new sources.  Yes, the second last page of what you were -- and it wasn't Mr. Martin, it was you Mr. McCrea ‑‑ at the bottom:  "We are expecting much of our revenue to come from new initiatives rather than simply competing with other stations."

 

1226       MR. McCREA:  Well, what we are referring to there is that we expect, in terms of an impact to the market, many of the things we're doing now ‑‑ MTYP, Smart Winnipeg -- Smart Winnipeg's a great example.  Smart Winnipeg is a technology show.  It was a good fit for the telecom to be involved in.  So you know, we're expecting that some of the specialty type programming we're doing, that and the fact that from an advertising rate point of view, that we're creating advertising opportunities for new clients that haven't typically used radio. 

 

1227       So when I'm saying new, I'm suggesting that we're going to be generating income from sources that aren't typically advertising in radio or, again the telecom, the sponsorship that they've come to the table with is not coming from another station.  It's in addition to what they're already doing in the market.

 

1228       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it's in addition to their normal advertising budget?

 

1229       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1230       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And excuse me, this Smart Winnipeg, who is designing that and running it?

 

1231       MR. McCREA:  Well, we're producing it in co-operation with Smart Winnipeg.  It's an organization in Winnipeg that was originally put together to study the Exchange District.  They were very involved in the Red River Downtown project.  They are involved in a Millennium Library project.  The mayor was instrumental in that organization coming together.  They are consulting with three levels of government and industry on new initiatives to make Winnipeg a smart community.

 

1232       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And, in terms of these new sources, what percentage of your advertising revenue do you expect will come from the new sources?

 

1233       MR. McCREA:  I think that probably half.

 

1234       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And tell me, what's plan B, if your revenue estimates are too optimistic?

 

1235       MR. McCREA:  The usual business practices.  We'd keep our eye on expense items.  We would make new initiatives in sales, concentration in sales and promotions.

 

1236       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. McCrea, you don't, or N.I.B. doesn't, subscribe to BBM?

 

1237       MR. McCREA:  Not now, no, we don't.

 

1238       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And so when you talk about how you've estimated your share, you're essentially going on what you believe to be your share of the "other" share?  Is that correct?

 

1239       MR. McCREA:  Well, we've outlined that we presumed because of timeframes with what has been published with the "other" category and from timeframes and what's taking place in the marketplace, the increase in "other" coinciding with our sign-on and the growth from a few months afterwards to now.  So there are some assumptions in that.

 

1240       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And if those assumptions are not correct, then would it be fair to say that your projections would be somewhat out?

 

1241       MR. McCREA:  Well, I think again, based on the response we had on our on-air call for support to the radio station, the response we received there, the phone calls, faxes, comments from being in the community and the number of people that said that they are tuning into us and listening to us, I'm very confident that our projections on the audience we have and thus the revenue we can generate is accurate.

 

1242       THE CHAIRPERSON:  In the recent renewal of CJAE, the renewal was a short-term renewal and the reason for it was that you had been only broadcasting Category 21 in the self-assessment week in 2000.  How long were you aware or did you know that CJAE was only broadcasting Category 2?

 

1243       MR. McCREA:  Well, I was aware at the time.  We were in the process of setting things up.  There were ‑‑ the college at the time that we were associated with had ceased to operate and as a result it put us in flux and we reacted to that and corrected that.

 

1244       THE CHAIRPERSON:  My question is, how long from the time you were originally licensed ‑‑ I think it was '96.  Am I right?

 

1245       MR. McCREA:  Mm-hmm.

 

1246       THE CHAIRPERSON:  How long, '96 to 2000, during that period of time, were you only or was CJAE only doing a --

 

1247       MR. McCREA:  We didn't actually go to air until 1998.  We had extensions on our sign-on.  And we were compliant with -- we weren't compliant at the time that self-assessment was done.  We were in the process again ‑‑ relating to the college we were associated with, we did have some issues to deal with and --

 

1248       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So Mr. McCrea, from '98, from sign-on until May of 2000 or April, or indeed until renewal, what length of time during this two, three years, was CJAE only broadcasting Category 2?

 

1249       MR. McCREA:  I'm going to say it was a number of months in '98.  If you wanted specific detail, I could probably come up with that.

 

1250       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So '98 and then in 2000?

 

1251       MR. McCREA:  I'm sorry, I'm referring to '99 to 2000.  From the end of '99 to a period in 2000 at the time of the self-assessment.

 

1252       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So about six, eight months?

 

1253       MR. McCREA:  Maybe six months.  Five, six months.

 

1254       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Could that impact on the listenership, the BBMs that you allude you have?   That it's essentially a different station than the one that you're proposing.

 

1255       MR. McCREA:  Well, I don't know.  It may have impact at that time.  It might have, although there'd be very few people aware that we were even on at that point.  We hadn't really promoted it.  We had a decision of non-compliance for not being on the air at all or being on the air and getting things corrected.  So we made that decision to at least be on the air and get compliant, which we did.  I don't think that we picked up -- there would have been a period in that initial point where people would just stumble on us.  But since then, and since making the corrections, we've seen that trend continue to grow.  So maybe minimal?

 

1256       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And we say in our decision on your renewal that corrective measures have since been put in place.  Can you say today that you're in compliance?

 

1257       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1258       THE CHAIRPERSON:  From a technical perspective, why is yours the best use of 107.6 -- I'm right on 107.6?

 

1259       MR. McCREA: 107.9.

 

1260       THE CHAIRPERSON:  107.9.  Why is yours, from a technical perspective, the best use?

 

1261       MR. McCREA:  Well, in fact, we had applied for 106.3 and at Industry Canada's suggestion we altered that.  From our transmitting site, we can increase our power on that frequency, whereas from our site, we have a problem with increasing power at 92.9.

 

1262       THE CHAIRPERSON:  From a public interest point of view, why is your application the best use of that frequency?

 

1263       MR. McCREA:  Well, there were a couple of low power frequencies that were open for our use.  Again, I'm not an engineer either and Doug Allen, our engineer, is attending Industry Canada meetings today.  He would be here tomorrow and I could refer to him on --

 

1264       THE CHAIRPERSON:  My question, Mr. McCrea was from a public interest point of view.  We have to worry, we three and the Commission, have to worry about the public interest.

 

1265       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1266       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And so my question is why is this the best use of this frequency in the public interest.  The first question was to technical point of view --

 

1267       MR. McCREA:  Well, again, I guess then this wouldn't be so much a technical question as a question of diversity of programming, the heavy community involvement that our station has demonstrated in associating with and producing programming with groups like Manitoba Theatre for Young People, the heavy component of local talent, local music that will be heard in regular rotation on our radio station.  Those issues are why we would serve it well.

 

1268       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And would you be prepared to accept another frequency?

 

1269       MR. McCREA:  We'd certainly be open to considering another frequency.

 

1270       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And I take it that you and Mr. Allen have not talked about this in terms of how the coverage would change?

 

1271       MR. McCREA:  How the coverage would change ‑‑

 

1272       THE CHAIRPERSON:  On any other frequency.

 

1273       MR. McCREA:  -- on moving to another frequency?

 

1274       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

 

1275       MR. McCREA:  No, we haven't gone -- nobody else had indicated an interest at this point in using, at least in this hearing, at using the frequency 107.9 that Industry had suggested.  So we haven't really looked at other options although in this hearing there have been four or five low FM frequencies that are possible.

 

1276       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Perhaps, in terms of the whole issue of alternate frequencies and coverage and impact on your business plan ‑‑ Mr. Allen will be here tomorrow; have I got that correct?

 

1277       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1278       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Perhaps we can cover that in Phase II and you could maybe discuss with Mr. Allen the coverage of other frequencies and if that would impact on your business plan?

 

1279       MR. McCREA:  Well, what would impact is ‑‑ the one thing that I can tell you now is that the power level would impact our business plan.  Currently, on the frequency we're at, in the location we're at, we can't really increase our power significantly.  Our intent is really just to broadcast to the Winnipeg community but to have good penetration within the city. 

 

1280       So if there's another frequency that is an option that we could have the level of power that we're asking for in this application, we'd certainly consider it.

 

1281       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you'll discuss with Mr. Allen the document that was provided by Rogers yesterday, and you have a copy of that?

 

1282       MR. McCREA:  Sure.  Yes.

 

1283       THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's the end of my questions.  Commission Cardozo has a few.

 

1284       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  A couple of questions.  I wondered as you're switching from an instructional station to a commercial station will you be carrying on any instructional content.  I understand the training aspects that you've talked about that you'll be doing with the N.I.B. or with students and so forth, but will there be actual instructional programming?  Have you had that in the past?

 

1285       MR. McCREA:  Instructional programming?  you mean to the participants to the ‑‑

 

1286       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  In the past did you have instructional programming where you had lectures or discussions about broadcasting or any other types of issues?

 

1287       MR. McCREA:  In our newscasts with students that were involved, we did discuss issues of journalism and delivery and things of that nature.  We were also doing some instructional programming, but not per se broadcasting.

 

1288       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Will that be continuing?

 

1289       MR. McCREA:  Referring to the two-hour a week commitment to educational programming?

 

1290       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  That would be the main part of your educational programming, is it?

 

1291       MR. McCREA:  We wouldn't be doing ‑‑  if this application is granted, it's not our intention so much to do a specific educational two-hour a week program or block programming like that.  We wouldn't be doing it in this.

 

1292       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Is that because you don't feel there's a need for that any longer or have you got other means of doing that type of program?

 

1293       MR. McCREA:  Well, certainly there would be life learning aspects and to our programming.  Again, Smart Winnipeg, technology related issues, things of that nature do have an educational component to them.  But again, to do a two-hour program on broadcast training is not what's contemplated in this application.

 

1294       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  You're aware of our category of campus radio stations with a different regulatory stream.  I take it you looked at that and decided you'd prefer to have a commercial station which is associated with an educational institution but you didn't want to have a non-profit, campus community or campus radio station?

 

1295       MR. McCREA:  Well, we've identified programming that fits the criteria for the Broadcast Act and the new commercial radio policy that provides diversity to the market.  We want to hold on to some of the heritage involved in the training history of the organization.  The intent is to deliver a commercial station with diverse programming, but there's no reason ‑‑ there's a benefit in fact to us continuing training, but more training in terms of bringing graduate students into the programming and then there's a natural mentoring that goes on with a news director to a reporter.

 

1296       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I understand that -- this is fun.  My other question was in regards to Anokiiwin College.  You've talked about providing training to Aboriginal students and as you know the Commission's identified Aboriginal broadcasting as a priority and encouraged commercial radio stations to get involved in assisting in this regard.  So I note that with interest.  Do you have an agreement with the College as to what you will be doing?

 

1297       MR. McCREA:  We have an agreement that we will be assisting and providing training for students of that college in broadcasting in general, and also journalism, but broadcasting in general as well as journalism.  So that will carry on regardless of whether this application is granted or not.

 

1298       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  You're doing that with CJAE at present?

 

1299       MR. McCREA:  We're just launching that.

 

1300       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So the students get some journalism training at the College and then come to you for hands-on experience?

 

1301       MR. McCREA:  That's right.

 

1302       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  If we were to license you, would you accept something of this nature in a condition of licence?

 

1303       MR. McCREA:  Yes, we would.

 

1304       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Those are my questions, thanks very much.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

 

1305       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Counsel?

 

1306       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Sorry, just for the purpose of the record, just on that last question by Commissioner Cardozo, what sort of condition of licence would you accept it being related to the instructional component? 

 

1307       In terms of a regulator, as you will understand, we have to look at either a percentage of broadcasting time or a commitment for a number of hours a week or something quantifiable that we can put into a condition of licence.  So you said that you would be willing to accept some sort of condition; I'm just wondering what kind of a condition it could be.

 

1308       MR. McCREA:  Sorry about that.  I'm just considering that suggestion.  The intent here is to train students in journalism and in broadcast and involve them in regular programming. So I don't know whether ‑‑ I mean, this is food for thought, but perhaps there's an employment condition.

 

1309       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Sorry, what's not clear to me is whether you would involve them as students, like when they are taking the instruction at a college, or whether you're employing them as either full-time or part-time persons after they've graduated.

 

1310       MR. McCREA:  Primarily, it's that we are going to be working with the College.  There are two aspects, before and after this application.  With this application, we are going to be involved with -- sorry, today, the station will be involved in doing two things, at least personnel et cetera will be involved in delivering lecture and theory training and, at an appropriate point, bringing those students into on the air.

 

1311       They will be doing assignments. They do lots of practical, but at a point when they are becoming competent in several skill sets, they will be involved in reporting and going out and delivering news and hosting programs.

 

1312       We're going to be involved in that regardless of before or after the application and we will provide employment for some of those graduates.  They'll be in the mix of graduate students that get employed.

 

1313       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Well, I think for the purpose of a condition of licence, what would be interesting for the Commission is if we could have your suggestion as to the condition of licence for the time that the students are receiving instruction as opposed to post-employment.  I don't know if you now can or during Phase II if you can provide a suggestion to the Commission for the sort of condition of licence that we could use in a quantifiable way as a commitment -- if the Commission chooses to do that -- for the purpose of this decision.

 

1314       MR. McCREA:  Perhaps I can come back to you in Phase II with some suggestions in that regard.

 

1315       LEGAL COUNSEL:  I think that would be helpful and thank you for that. 

 

1316       Could you just clarify then what is the relationship or what has been the relationship with the College?  I think you said that a relationship with the College has ceased, and can you just clarify what relationship you did have, when it ceased, and what relationship you now have?

 

1317       MR. McCREA:  Earlier, I was referring to a college, Media Arts and Education, which was a college that we were associated with a couple of years ago, and it did cease to operate.

 

1318       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Sorry, is that the N.I.B., the National Institute of Broadcasting?

 

1319       MR. McCREA:  National Institute of Broadcasting was the school that we were associated with at the time the licence was granted.  N.I.B. sold its curriculum, its assets, et cetera, to a school called Media Arts and Education.  Media Arts and Education ceased to operate.

 

1320       LEGAL COUNSEL:  So Media Arts and Education ceased to operate when?

 

1321       MR. McCREA:  Media Arts and Education ceased to operate in '98, at the time that ‑‑ yes, '98.

 

1322       LEGAL COUNSEL:  So as of '98 have you been, or are you, associated with any other college?

 

1323       MR. McCREA:  Yes, we are.  We're associated with Anokiiwin College and we are working with Manitoba Theatre for Young People, who are establishing a professional, college division.

 

1324       LEGAL COUNSEL:  And so the instructional courses that you are referring to would be with the college you just referred to for the future; is that correct?

 

1325       MR. McCREA:  Yes, we would be associated with ‑‑ we are associated with Anokiiwin.  We would also expand that to be associated with Manitoba Theatre for Young People, assisting them in establishing a professional division of the school.

 

1326       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Is the MTYP associated with the college as well?

 

1327       MR. McCREA:  No, they'd be associated with us and we're assisting them in expanding their programs.

 

1328       LEGAL COUNSEL:  When the company was incorporated, I think it was first incorporated as a company without share capital; is that right?

 

1329       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1330       LEGAL COUNSEL:  And from your file, it appears that in September of 2001, you filed articles of amendment and you made it a corporation with share capital?

 

1331       MR. McCREA:  No.  We provided what the company would look like on the conversion at the point where we get an approval.  That hasn't happened.  We're still a non-share company but we provided the documentation on what would be if this application is approved.

 

1332       LEGAL COUNSEL:  So just so I understand it for the record.  There's two aspects of it.  One is a change of the frequency and the other is a change from a corporation without share capital to one with share capital; is that correct?

 

1333       MR. McCREA:  That's right.

 

1334       LEGAL COUNSEL:  If the Commission denied both aspects of it, for the sake of an example, then the company would continue to broadcast as an entity with members, without share capital; is that correct?

 

1335       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1336       LEGAL COUNSEL:  If the Commission were to deny the frequency change but granted the application to become a commercial entity, then the entity would continue to broadcast but as an entity with share capital; is that correct?

 

1337       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1338       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Similarly, if the Commission granted the change in frequency, the entity would still continue to broadcast whether or not we granted the change to a commercial station?

 

1339       MR. McCREA:  Yes.

 

1340       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Thank you.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

 

1341       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, gentlemen.  I think we will now take a break until, say, five after 10:00 ‑‑ well, for 15 minutes.

 

           --- Upon recessing at 0950 / Suspension à 0950

 

           --- Upon resuming at 1005 / Reprise à 1005

 

1342       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  We'll recommence, and just a reminder that we will be breaking approximately 12:15 if we are not completed by then because we do have a teleconference.  Mr. Secretary.

 

1343       THE SECRETARY:  Thank you Madam Chair.  The next item this morning is an application by CKVN Radiolink System Inc. for a licence to carry on an English language specialty FM radio station in Winnipeg.  The new station would operate on frequency 100.7 MHz with an effective radiated power of 1,300 Watts.  Please proceed when you are ready.

 

           APPLICATION / APPLICATION

 

1344       MR. SMITH:  Madam Chair, I am delighted to describe a proposal to enhance a grown-in-Winnipeg radio service that has borne fruit from a seed planted here and nurtured by the local community.

 

1345       In a few minutes, the managerial team will provide detail on expansion of our operations from the current 25 weeks into 52 weeks of service.

 

1346       Approval of our application will further the CRTC's established aim of perceptibly increasing service diversity in the Canadian broadcast system.

 

1347       Our proposed program of Canadian Talent Development exceeds CRTC and CAB guidelines.  CKVN has introduced new Canadian easy listening music artists, with explanation of Canadian music history coupled to it ‑‑ something not previously done in Winnipeg.

 

1348       We have been operating for seven years as a low-power, special events radio station, broadcasting from on-site locations in support of such organizations as the Society for Manitobans with Disabilities, Canadian Diabetic Association, Western Canada Aviation Museum, the Stroke Recovery Association of Manitoba, Winnipeg Harvest Food Bank and many, many more organizations.

 

1349       Being the first to conduct special events radio operations in Canada attracted a great deal of attention locally and nationally.  I am proud to say the high quality of our programming prompted more positive press and TV coverage for radio broadcasting than all other Winnipeg radio stations combined in the last six years.

 

1350       The 1996 Canada Census of the Winnipeg Central Metropolitan Area indicates a population of approximately 225,745 aged 45 and older, which is equivalent to the population of Saskatoon.  As the Baby Boomer generation ages, our audience is predicted to grow well into the future.  A report prepared by Western Opinion Research indicates that 26 percent of people aged 45-plus has stopped listening to radio because of lack of appealing programming.  Another group listens for short periods and then turn their radios off.  Western Opinion Research data shows that a population base of 79,000 people will give our proposed radio station a try.  Listeners frequently mention that CKVN plays all day in their home and has become a welcome friend and household companion, especially for shut-ins.

 

1351       Market survey results, daily phone calls, letters of support and the BBM-documented demographic success of CHUM-owned easy listening station 1290 Starlight, CFST, all verify a strong pent-up demand for service.  A programming decision made in Toronto caused CFST to become part of a national network of all sports talk stations and no longer offers easy listening music in Winnipeg.

 

1352       People who have turned off their radios are lost to the entire Winnipeg radio industry.  By offering distinctive programming, we will repatriate some of these disenfranchised radio owners and will also be an alternative to those who look outside Winnipeg for radio services as indicated in the large numbers of the "others" column of BBM ratings.

 

1353       CKVN also serves Winnipeg business owners.  Many now want to increase their exposure and financial support for full-time operation of an easy listening FM station whose familiar voices and friendly spoken word reflects the community's personality and concerns.  Many of these businesses are first-time radio advertisers who previously relied on print media and have returned to CKVN on a regular basis based on positive results.  The presence of CKVN has increased the number of radio advertising dollars in the marketplace while exposing some business owners to the benefits of commercial broadcasting.

 

1354       Many thousands have signed letters written to you on our behalf.  As a further demonstration of their loyalty, approximately 1,200 families have voluntarily joined the Friends of CKVN Club, providing financial donations to show their support to establish this broadcast service.  More than 15,000 listeners have visited the CKVN website to seek information on our short duration broadcasts.

 

1355       CKVN is currently a moderately profitable small business.  It is a known entity rather than a phantom service.  It has sufficient technical equipment operated by an exceptionally well qualified staff.  It carries no debt and is led by a managerial team with considerable experience in the broadcast business.

 

1356       At CRTC hearings in Saskatoon, I noted with great interest your comments that the Commission is searching for ways to increase the appeal of radio, increase music diversity, provide additional sources of editorial comment delivered by many voices, and strengthen the Canadian broadcast system in an atmosphere of financial stability while reflecting the local community.

 

1357       Each and every one of those objectives will be achieved by approving our application for operation.  To ensure that the Commission will be granting operating authority to a company which will deliver on promises, we will operate in the specialty format by condition of licence and not flip to some variation of rock music already prevalent in Winnipeg.

 

1358       MR. SMORDIN:  Ladies and gentlemen, that was Lee Smith, the President and Chief Operating Officer of the applicant.

 

1359       Members of the Commission, I would like to introduce the other members.  My name is Lyle Smordin.  I'm general counsel and also a member of the management group.  On my far right, Ron O'Donovan, vice-president, treasurer and controller of the applicant.  And on my left is Cliff Gardner.  Mr. Gardner is vice-president of programming and a veteran of over 50 years in the broadcast and broadcast management business.

 

1360       This morning's application encompasses a unique story.  The story initially reflects the commitment, dedication and vision of primarily one individual, who has since been joined by many, many others.  We'd like to make note of the fact that as well as the management team, we have in this overwhelming audience many, many of our supporters and we welcome them here today and thank them for coming out to support our application.

 

1361       *(applause / applaudissements)

 

1362       I guess that's the spontaneity that we enjoy on our station.

 

1363       The vision of the individual, Mr. Smith, who conceived the idea seven years ago, and it's been seven long years and now we are here, conceived the idea of a good music station that would appeal to what's been described as the older generation, 45-plus.  To achieve that purpose and to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II, the first on‑site broadcast of CKVN came into being. 

 

1364       Since that time, CKVN has remained on the air intermittently from various locations up to and including this week, as you've heard, on behalf of many charities and special events.

 

1365       The station started with a group of individuals dedicating themselves to the same purpose as Mr. Smith and the company was subsequently incorporated in February of 1999.  The ownership of the corporation is in the hands of a group of experienced broadcasters who have an extraordinary dedication to provide this type of service.  And the key to this applicant is encaptured in the word "dedication."

 

1366       MR. SMITH:  The staff have prepared a four-minute video presentation regarding their past accomplishments.  This is taken from the CTV and CBC National News, from CBC Newsworld and from segments of locally produced television shows, on air and on cable.  I'm sure that you'll find it tells the story well of how we came to be in this room.

 

1367       (VIDEO PRESENTATION)

 

1368       MR. SMITH:  And now to describe our programming aims is vice-president of programming, Clifford Gardner.

 

1369       MR. GARDNER:  Members of the Commission, on behalf of a gathering of friends, welcome to the heart of the continent.  The aims of our radio station are three-fold.  First to serve, entertain and communicate with an audience of people 45 years of age and better.  Second, to guide our staff and listeners to more awareness of and more involvement in the promotion of our community and its many attractions.  Third, to encourage, assist and even spotlight the values of our up and coming talented Canadians in the Winnipeg area.

 

1370       Our staff of veteran broadcasters will entertain with the greatest music and the finest performances from the best years of the lives of our audience.  Our experienced team will highlight the important aspects of Winnipeg and Winnipeggers as this Paris of the Prairies proudly and confidently moves into a new era of accomplishments with an assist from well informed citizens.

 

1371       Our professional air crew will inform those 45 and better of the events, the happenings and the changes that take place in their city, in their country, and in their lives.  We will be a prime awareness factor for one of the largest and still growing groups of Canadians, with whom today's governments, businesses and service industries must communicate.

 

1372       Our radio station communicators, armed with the best know-how ingredients, are ready and willing and able to provide a friendly, comfortable and familiar atmosphere in which to inform and educate all people in our age group.

 

1373       Our entertainment components take audiences from the 1920s to the present day:  the big bands, from Paul Whiteman to Winnipeg's Ron Paley Band; from Artie Shaw to this city's Memory Lane Orchestra; from the Boston Pops to our own Winnipeg Symphony; and great vocal performances from Enrico Caruso to Andrea Bocelli and his partner in classical duets, Canadian Sarah Brightman; from Al Jolson to Alberta's Tim Tamashira; the Mills Brothers to Manitoba's Neil Harris Singers; from Dinah Shore to Diana Krall.

 

1374       We are in touch with the likes and wishes, the needs and concerns of the seniors of our community, all 225,000 of them.

 

1375       Collectively, our announcers, technicians, and office personnel possess over 1,400 years of broadcast experience plus the heritage of basic broadcast facts and figures and the expertise of having witnessed and put in place many of the changes of the past, the innovations of the present, and with an awareness of the concepts of tomorrow.

 

1376       Having been the broadcast personalities when the music, the entertainers and the magic of radio were young, our veterans have honed their craft to become the ideal hosts to recall the nostalgia, the history, the headlines, and the people and places involved.  As you've heard, our audience has already applauded our authenticity with their written approval and support.

 

1377       To sum up, we offer yesteryear blended with the here and now of today and occasional glances into that new world, tomorrow.  We thank our growing audience, volunteers, and supporters for their involvement that has taken us to this step.  And yes, members of the Commission, we're very aware in Winnipeg people care.  Thank you.

 

1378       (applause / applaudissements)

 

1379       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Excuse me. 

 

1380       MR. GARDNER:  Thank you.

 

1381       (applause / applaudissements)

 

1382       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Excuse me.  This is not an entertainment.  Although we may be talking about entertainment, this is a serious hearing and I would ask people to act accordingly.  Clapping in a hearing where we are trying to decide between various applicants is not appropriate.

 

1383       MR. SMORDIN:  Madam Chair, one of the concerns of the Commission as evidenced by applications both in the past and in the current group of applications is financial concerns and I would ask our treasurer and financial vice-president, Ron O'Donovan, to make his presentation.

 

1384       MR. O'DONOVAN:  Good morning, members of the Commission.  CKVN has formulated a seven-year sales marketing procedure based on non-erosion of the local commercial radio advertising marketplace.  We will concentrate sales efforts predominately on print media advertisers.

 

1385       Our research was based on the latest dollar figures available from the 2001/2002 media digest produced by the Canadian Media Directors' Council.  This Canada-wide organisation indicated that advertisers in the Winnipeg area, in 1999 spent approximately $158 million on local print advertising.  Following an extensive, systematic investigation, we compiled a list of over 60 daily, weekly, semi-monthly and seasonal print vehicles in the local market area.

 

1386       Under Schedule 18, section 10.5, in our licence application, we have indicated that we took a very conservative approach to estimating, not only our expected first-year expenses, but also our grow revenue potential.  And we will show a modest profit of $4,000 for year one of operation.  In consultation with an experienced broadcast sales executive, he agreed that our first-year sales projection to sell slightly more than two minutes of commercial time per broadcast hour ‑‑ or to phrase it in percentages, we have budgeted for selling just 28 percent of our first year's maximum potential revenue to obtain our working budget of $680,852 ‑‑ is realistic and achievable.

 

1387       We refrained from including any national revenue in our first-year budget and added just $50,000 revenue from that source in our second year of operation.  Our financial outlook is to be able to increase the program budget by 15 percent each year from year two to year seven.  This will be obtained by an anticipated 2 percent yearly gain in sales revenue from 28 percent of maximum potential to 36 percent of sold-out status in year seven. 

 

1388       The special event broadcasts that were referred to earlier in CKVN's presentation have not only brought back and retained radio listeners but has demonstrated that we can also bring back advertisers who may have fled to the print form of advertising as they, like many listeners, tuned out radio programming.

 

1389       We have practiced efficient, prudent and successful financial capabilities over the past seven years as indicated in our application, and look forward to expanding in the near future.  Thank you.

 

1390       MR. SMORDIN:  Well, members of the Commission, you've heard our initial presentations.  We've attempted to cover many of the items that I know are a concern to the Commission and as well, of course, you have our written application and we stand ready to answer your questions.

 

1391       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, gentlemen.  Commissioner Cardozo?

 

1392       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you, Madam Chair, and welcome, Mr. Smordin, Mr. Smith and colleagues.

 

1393       I just want to say to people in the audience, there are more chairs around.  I notice a number of people standing.  There are still several chairs so please feel free to sit and it's still going to be another hour or two.  We'll try to keep you informed, if not entertained, but please feel free to sit comfortably, if you can.

 

1394       Thank you for your presentation; that was helpful.  As you know, the purpose of the hearing is really to address a number of issues that we want more information on, so while the basic information has been covered in your application and in the deficiency correspondence that has gone on between the Commission and yourselves the last few weeks.  So I hope you don't feel that this is an interrogation, but rather it's ‑‑ or a cross-examination, although we might sound like that sometimes.  But really, what we're trying to do is to get as much information on the record as possible in order to make our decision at the end of the day.  And I hope that the audience will bear with us sometimes when we deal with some rather picky, detailed questions, but there is a purpose to them.  And I'll just say that in order for the whole system to work, we want to make sure that everybody more or less does what they said they were going to do. 

 

1395       I am tempted to read one quote out of your application and, in a sense, it's sort of what I think you ‑‑ what you want to do and this is sort of what we want to discuss as how you are going to do this.  It's from section 8 of the supplementary brief, but you don't need to refer to that.

 

1396       It says: 

 

These days one needs to be a musicologist to note the slight variations in music style which determine if a station is AOR, Classic Rock, Dance, Hip Hop, Rap, Turntablist, Urban Music, Blues, Oldies et cetera.  All these forms of music sound basically the same to the ear of the 45-plus listener and may be summarized as being Rock, More Rock, Horrible Rock, and "Rock so hard you just can't stand to listen to it for two seconds."

 

1397       I thought of that paragraph when I was watching the gentleman on your video looking for a station to listen to, and I take it that is, not to be too hard on the others, what you're going to be doing is stuff that isn't Rock, Horrible Rock and all that kind of stuff?

 

1398       MR. SMITH:  I'm absolutely delighted that you chose that selection to represent our radio station because, from one end of the dial to the other, there is no perceptible, in the opinion of many, diversity here.  It's as if we're preparing microscope slides for the examination of music, primarily taken from the body of Rock and taking the microtome to prepare that microscope slide, and slicing it one cell layer thick for examination under the microscope.

 

1399       We provide and will provide in the future easy listening music which is immediately discernible as you tune across the band, just as you saw in that video.  That was done with off-air signals.  That wasn't staged.  That was what you hear when you get in your car and go from one end of the dial to the other.  And there is only one exception and that is the CBC Radio 2 service.  Many people perceive that as being sort of, if you will, elitist or too long hair for them.

 

1400       So we offer a very, very distinctive turn from light rock, medium rock et cetera.  And yes, we play jazz; we have for some time.  I did find it somewhat interesting to have applicants come forward and say nobody plays jazz.  But then, from our licensing status, of course, no, nobody does play jazz.  But we will play it as a component because it fits in the overall presentation of easy listening music.  Hopefully, I've expounding on that sufficiently.

 

1401       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  And let me tell you the areas that we'll cover.  They're basically three areas.  The first will be programming and within that context we'll be talking about Canadian content, local programming, and your advisory council.  The second general topic area will be economic and financial issues, and the third will be technical issues.

 

1402        Despite the nature of these areas, I hope that we won't bore the audience that has come here to support you.  But just to reinforce the message earlier that in order to deal with these issues in depth, much as you do want to applaud, we have noted that, and further applause does cause distraction and also, we're in a sort of competitive area so we don't want people to be measuring applications by the degree of applause in the hall.  Although I noticed the spontaneity of what it was delivered in.

 

1403       Let me ask you then, on the matter of the categories of music, Category 2 and Category 3, what are your plans for how much Category 2 and how much 3?  You said as a minimum there would be 55 percent of Category 2; is that correct?  And then you talked about 22 percent Category 3, which leaves another 23 percent unaccounted for.

 

1404       MR. GARDNER:  Your figures are correct and the remaining part makes up the entire scope of what CKVN does, from religious to country to blues to live performances and to excerpts from Broadway and the movies.

 

1405       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  So by your knowledge of our categorization of music, do you know where that would fit into Category 2 or 3?

 

1406       MR. GARDNER:  Category 2 and 3 ‑‑

 

1407       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  No, this other 23 percent --

 

1408       MR. GARDNER:  Oh.  Well, trying to determine what your definition of the categories were and our interpretation of it, we have pop, rock and dance at 10 percent, country music at 10 percent, or country related music.  We have folk and folk-related music at 5 percent.  We have jazz and blues at 20 percent, but that's covered in the "other" category.  Religious, 5 percent.  World international interpretation, because we have a mix in Winnipeg that is unique, from all around the world, another 5 percent.  And the live performances, at least 5 percent, should be pretty close to the full 100 percent of our involvement.

 

1409       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  So focusing on the issue of Category 3, specialty music, from that calculation ‑‑ I hope that calculation comes out right ‑‑ but you'll be talking about at least 30 percent would be Ccategory 3, specialty music,

 

1410       MR. GARDNER:  Yes, yes.

 

1411       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And you would expect a condition of licence to that effect, because that's an important aspect in providing the licence and ensuring that you perform in the way that you say you are going to perform?

 

1412       MR. SMITH:  Yes, we would accept a condition of licence with respect to 30 percent Category 3 music.

 

1413       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  With regards to the Ccategory 2 music, you said you'd do 20 percent Canadian content; is that correct?

 

1414       MR. SMITH:  Yes, and we have also -- well, I'm sure that you'll address them shortly --requested the ‑‑ first of all, we've made a commitment to 35 percent; you'll find that in the documentation.

 

1415       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Sorry, the ‑‑

 

1416       MR. SMITH:  Overall 35 percent with the application of the capabilities inside the regulations for the increased percentage of instrumental music, reducing that to 25 percent, and also for the exemption of Canadian content if we wish to produce specialty programs of music composed prior to 1956, which has been granted to other radio stations, reducing Canadian content for those periods of specialty programming, to as low as 2 percent.

 

1417       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Let me just go over a couple of those again.  Category 2, instrumental selections, would be, did you say, 20 or 25 percent Canadian content?

 

1418       MR. SMITH: Twenty-five percent.

 

1419       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Twenty-five percent.  And you're aware that that's calculated on a weekly basis?

 

1420       MR. SMITH:  Understand that exactly.

 

1421       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  With regards to pre-1956, I've always wondered why it's pre-1956 apart from that date being the year ‑‑

 

1422       MR. SMITH:  It has raised considerable questions on our mind as well.

 

1423       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  It's the year of my birth, but that's another matter.  See, I'll be in your demographic.  I don't know if I start this year or next year in your demographic.  Is it 45 or post-45, or better than 45, as you said?

 

1424       MR. SMITH:  Forty-five on up.

 

1425       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay, so I'm in your demographic.

 

1426       MR. SMITH:  Welcome.  So there you are.

 

1427       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Now I have a special interest.  I don't know if this creates a conflict of interest for me, but I'll pursue. 

 

1428       So with regards to the pre-1956 music, if it's 90 percent of those blocks are pre-1956, you're required to play 10 percent Canadian content.  If it's 100 percent pre-1956 then you can go down to 2 percent.  You're aware of those two regulations?

 

1429       MR. SMITH: Yes, I'm aware of that situation.  And where we see that as being valuable, for example, last week when Peggy Lee died.  If we did a special production with respect to Peggy Lee, then the majority of her music was composed and performed prior to 1956, it would enable us to do that special.

 

1430       For example, Frank Sinatra died; we produced a special on Frank Sinatra.  And by employing the music written by Ruth Lowe of Toronto that was performed by Frank Sinatra, we would have exceeded the 2 percent floor very, very handily.  But that capability is in there for our specialized programming for us to be able to take advantage of that and work it very, very well to the service of the public.

 

1431       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  What's going to be your method of ensuring that what you think is pre-'56 is pre-'56?

 

1432       MR. SMITH:  Well, we've discussed that actually with the excellent help of Steve Parker, on your staff ‑‑ been very, very helpful to me ‑‑ and Joel Whitburn's book of hit music is considered to be, if you'll excuse the analogy, the bible associated with the differentiation there.  The dates that are in that publication, and for that matter, other music publications ‑‑ but we, immediately upon my return from a special visit to Ottawa to discuss this matter with Mr. Parker, obtained a copy of Joel Whitburn's book and it's been very, very helpful.

 

1433       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  It will be more than saying, I know music well and I thought this was -- if we come to check your logs you won't be assuring us that you really thought it was '56?  You've got methods of categorizing your own music to ensure that it is pre-'56?

 

1434       MR. SMITH:  We do have the research available to differentiate should it become a question of a division of something close to 1956.  We do have the way of doing that.  And our library will in fact be categorized ‑‑ well, not categorized -- there will be a code associated with the music which will tell its date of composition so that it could be very, very easily printed out.  It will come up with the file title and other information with it and it also has year in that period of time, plus or minus a couple of years, so that it's easily differentiated and logged and managed.

 

1435       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I take it that the gentleman to my right has the computer skills to carry you through such a process?  He's performed admirably this morning.

 

1436       MR. SMITH:  Actually it's as simple as a bracket with a date and a close bracket.

 

1437       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  With regards to the speciality FM format, you're required to broadcast a certain amount of Category 3 music with a certain level of Canadian content calculated on a weekly basis.  We just need to ask you why you feel the level that you suggested is adequate?

 

1438       MR. SMITH:  Well, as I recall, the Cancon level for Category 3 is, in fact, 10 percent.  We exceed that already and certainly meeting the regulatory requirement is dead simple.  We're already performing at that level and in excess of it.

 

1439       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And does that meet the demand of your listenership?

 

1440       MR. SMITH:  More than.

 

1441       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  At present or over the past, how many months of the year or weeks of the year have you been on air?   On average?

 

1442       MR. SMITH:  Most recently, we've in fact been on for, round numbers, two weeks on, two weeks off.  That's a slight oversimplification because there are some time periods where our dates ‑‑ because the dates fluctuate depending on the length of the special event that we're operating in support of, and that makes it a little bit tough for me to say exactly how many weeks out of the last 52, but it would be approximately 25.

 

1443       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  Can we talk about local programming?  You have a fairly impressive or maybe ambitious amount of local programming that you're planning to do.  Tell us a little about the number of full-time and part-time people you're going to be having at the station and how many volunteers, and give us a sense of some of these programs that you've mentioned such as Books on the Air, Prime Times, Ask the Doctor, et cetera.  Not necessarily each one, but in general, how many would be volunteers?

 

1444       MR. SMITH:  Well, we have an interesting combination of staff members.  In full-time operation ‑‑ well, for that matter, even in part‑time ‑‑ in our current schedule, we don't really have volunteers in an on-air staff capacity.  In fact, that's one of the reasons why I'm anticipating, if you'll forgive me, a question that would come up as to why we did not consider community-based radio stations as a way to do it. 

 

1445       The people associated with the production of these programs ‑‑ and they're taking time from their other segments in life ‑‑ certainly deserve to be compensated.  They have, for the most part, been compensated by broadcasting for the rest of their lives until they were let loose by many other radio stations locally as being too old or too expensive or what have you.

 

1446       They've found a home with us.  Our anticipated operation in full-time is eight full-time but complemented by 27 additional part-time people so that they're called in on a contract basis, they do their work and then they leave.  And we're grateful for them to have had the opportunity to walk through our doors, do the work and leave.  So eight full-time initially and the complemented by, if you will, 27 freelancers if you want to reduce it to that common language.

 

1447       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And volunteers?

 

1448       MR. SMITH:  Volunteers in on-air and production capacities, the answer is none.  We do employ volunteers in peripheral areas of the radio station.  An example would be with respect to our current operations are telephone type duties, our interfacing between the operational staff and the public that phone.

 

1449       We have no plans to, if you will, ditch those people.  They've made a very valuable contribution to us along the way and we may look at some form of compensation for that, whether it be monetary, whether it be through goods, services, a slap on the back and shake the hand.  I don't know as of yet, and I must admit that we haven't looked at that aspect of how we will express our appreciation for the work done by the volunteer component in our operation.

 

1450       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  The Friends of CKVN that you talked about in your presentation, what is their role besides supporting and providing donations?  And that's not to undermine that; that's extremely important too.  Would you see them being involved in giving advice, feedback?

 

1451       MR. SMORDIN:  Well, we've had over the past number of years, as our presentation indicated and our brief indicated, over 1,200 families, because usually it's a family membership.  All of that was done voluntarily.  We asked, of course, and they responded.  But really, what they gain out of it is the satisfaction of supporting the station and its initiatives.  I believe we would continue to do that.  And their part, yes, we have talked in our brief about the establishment of an advisory council, and whether they come from that aspect or whether they come from the business community, the ethnic community, the religious community, that has not been decided upon.  But we certainly have in our plans the development of an advisory council to provide us with guidelines, with guidance as to what kind of programming they would like to hear.

 

1452       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So the advisory council, is that the type of feedback you would get from them or is the advisory council more involved in the Friends in general?

 

1453       MR. SMORDIN:  It would be a crossover between both.  Whether the person on the advisory council is a Friend of CKVN or not, I don't think is the important issue.  The Friends of CKVN come from our listening audience, our very loyal listening audience.

 

1454       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Do you have the advisory council set up yet or is that something that ‑‑

 

1455       MR. SMORDIN:  No, we don't.  We have it structured and we have a number of people who have volunteered but we haven't set that up as a structure.  Our Board consists of the officers that are indicated in the application.

 

1456       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  You'll be aware for companies under 100, they're required to report to us on employment equity.  Is that something you're prepared to do?

 

1457       MR. SMORDIN:  Yes, certainly we are.

 

1458       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Do you see your music as reflecting or catering to the diversity of the 45pplus population in terms of cultural background?  This is a very multicultural city.

 

1459       MR. GARDNER:  Yes, that's very much a part of our planning for the programming day.

 

1460       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And how would you do that?  Is that genres of music?

 

1461       MR. GARDNER:  Well, I would like to base it on calendar events because when the Italian community is celebrating it's a different part of the year than when the German folks of Winnipeg celebrate.  Throughout the entire ethnic list there are different times of the year when we have the opportunity to celebrate with and for them on their special event or special occasion.

 

1462       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And you feel you've got the contacts to make those connections with the community?

 

1463       MR. GARDNER:  Yes.

 

1464       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Can we move to financial projections?  If you were licensed, how long would it take you to get on air?  I guess you're sort of there already but --

 

1465       MR. SMITH:  Well, the time period that we anticipate, we've been watching your decisions and the time period associated with your publications quite closely.  They vary between three months and five depending on the complexity of the issues that you've dealt with.  I'm anticipating an answer somewhere in May and we have planned on a time period of sign-on for the Labour Day long weekend.

 

1466       Already we have purchased the transmitter; we have already bought the tower and the antenna.  It's paid for and ready for erection because we're anticipating a successful decision from you, not to pre-judge, but we have facilities in place and we are in fact slowly but prudently expanding them.  So we will be ready for the September long weekend.

 

1467       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Sounds like the message to us is get on with it and give you the licence.

 

1468       MR. SMITH:  We've been waiting a very, very considerable time to appear before you.

 

1469       MR. SMORDIN:  It's been seven years since this came into existence in an idea format.

 

1470       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  With regards to your station to date, the special events station, what's your sense of the level of audiences and what's your anticipated tuning share?

 

1471       MR. SMITH:  Well, not subscribing to BBM at this stage, we cannot quantify that.  However, we anticipate that, judging by the BBM information from 1290 Starlight CFST, which attained approximately a 5 share by operating on AM without promotional budgets, and they did a very credible job of a modern presentation of that music.  Very similar to the station that you approved in Toronto for CHWO.

 

1472       We intend to take CHWO's concept, with which you are very likely familiar, and in fact inject more local, more personality into it.  So operating on FM it is somewhat speculative on my part, but I would anticipate that we would be at a 6 to 6.5 share in the BBMs, to which we will subscribe. 

 

1473       So we have a previously documented 5 share with zero promotion and on AM, and an additional 1.5 by going to proper fidelity on FM is certainly not unreasonable to anticipate.

 

1474       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I was going to ask about CHWO; maybe you can just tell me a little bit more about that now.  What have you learned in terms of how they're functioning there?  I guess they've been on air maybe close to a year, something like that?

 

1475       MR. SMITH:  Approximately so.  Well actually longer than that because it was your CHWO decision which encouraged me to actually finally put pen to paper.  The development of your criteria, before we were asked to jump a high-jump with an invisible bar, it wasn't until you published the basic guidelines of how high that high-jump bar is set that we knew whether or not we would be competitive, whether it's worth our while to even come forward when we, sort of, observe the previous lack of criteria versus today's criteria that have been very, very helpful.  It's something that I've asked for in several public forums and I was very, very heartened by the publication of those guidelines.

 

1476       Now, to move to CHWO, I have not looked at their latest BBM ratings; however, they do enjoy support.  Their financial picture in talking with their sales manager, they are on projections.  Now, mind you, as far as he is concerned, I'm just a member of the public.  I could very well be a competitor.  I could be someone down the street.  I could be Lee Smith from Winnipeg.  He has no way to tell.  So to sit here and say, here is their financial statement, I can't do that.

 

1477       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  No.  But is there a prospect for you to develop a co-operative relationship where you learn from each other as you go through this?

 

1478       MR. SMITH:  I would very much hope so because I used to work with a number of the people who are currently employed at CHWO, in fact, and I have a very long-term relationship, in excess of 30 years, with some of their staff members.  They do a very, very good job.  However, I think that they have taken the Top 40 world and applied that to the world of easy listening via automation.  And so really, we want to do what CHWO does as a floor and then in turn build upon that for local involvement and people for information.

 

1479       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  On the age level, given what you were talking about in the video and in your application, isn't it more of a sort of 55‑plus than 45-plus?   Because there are some 45‑pluses who still listen to the Rolling Stones, even though the Rolling Stones, I think, are 55-plus themselves.

 

1480       MR. SMITH:  Absolutely.  And there are some 75s that listen to Led Zeppelin and there are also some nine-year-olds that listen to Brahms.

 

1481       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  No, but I'm talking about your main audience.

 

1482       MR. SMITH:  Exactly.  I'll tell you where the 45 dividing line came from and that is because I witnessed and took very, very close notes at the Saskatoon hearing where the whole issue associated with differentials between coverage areas, partial use of one form of a population base combined with another became a very, very big issue associated with the hearing at that stage.

 

1483       For the sake of ease of measurement and commonality associated with our coverage area, every document that we have in here is referenced to the 1996 Canada Census and 45 is a beautiful dividing line in their documentation.  It doesn't perfectly suit the number of people that would listen to the radio station.  I have people that come to me, literally seven or eight years old, that say, oh, I think what you're doing is really cool.  And I have people who are 77-plus come to me and say, well done, kid.

 

1484       So the part that we are specifically interested in serving though is 45 on up.

 

1485       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  You indicate that the new FM would attract listeners from a few other stations, namely CJOB, CKY, CFST and CBC, and these stations tend to target an older demographic.  One might say that the 45-plus audience is well served.

 

1486       MR. SMITH:  Well, our documentation based on the research from Western Opinion Research indicates that they don't feel that they are well served.  Recall that one out of every four people over that age bracket have given up on listening to radio. Specifically our question was, "Did you stop listening to radio because of lack of suitable programming?"  One out of four said yes.  So, well it may be argued that, oh yes, we serve everyone from 9 to 90, by some of the other commercial broadcasters, it is failing when it comes to people 45-plus because of lack of suitable programming.

 

1487       I could go on literally for hours giving anecdotal information that comes from people that speak with me on the telephone or that have written to you literally in their thousands describing why they feel that they have not been appropriately served by current licensees.

 

1488       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So is it your view that CKY, for example, which {inaudible ‑‑ off microphone) a lot of talk doesn't cater to their interests?

 

1489       MR. SMITH:  Well, interesting that you should ask me about CKY, and I don't -- they do an excellent job.  They are technically hampered by being on AM.  It is not a conscious decision that people make when they get into their cars or when they tune at home:  oh, I want to listen to FM because the frequency response at 16 kHz is far, far better than it is on AM.  They punch that button because subliminally they know what sounds best to them.  That is an excellent format, programmed by people that know what they're doing at KY, that is hampered by being on AM.

 

1490       Not to sort of jump ahead in the proceedings until we get to the intervention portion. So yes, they serve that segment of their audience very, very well.  They super-serve that slice, just as we will super-serve our particular slice of the market as well.

 

1491       Now, 1290, for example, did a fine job; however, they don't exist any longer.  And some of our research shows that people are willing to change from the Corus station, from CJOB to us.  Our research shows that, of those 79,000 people who will try us -- that doesn't mean 79,000 people that will be glued to the radio 24 hours a day, filling out BBM cards.  That means 79,000 people will punch on that dial and say, let's see if we like it.  It's up to us after that to provide material that is sufficiently attractive for them to remain there with us or to tune more often than they have.  

 

1492       Now, our research shows that 24 percent of those people who would sample our station, in other words, 18,960, would come from CJOB to try us out.  How many we'll retain?  Frankly, that's our problem.

 

1493       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay, as far as advertising revenues, how much do you think would come from other media and how much would be new advertisers?  You talked about people who are not advertising now because they don't feel that that is an appropriate avenue --

 

1494       MR. O'DONOVAN:  Actually, at the moment that's a very difficult question to answer.  We did our calculations, our research on the vast amount of print advertising that's going on across Canada and that share there, that $158 million, is Winnipeg's share.

 

1495       There may well be a little bit of percentage, but in our budget we took a look at that $158 million, and to require us to hit the first year budget, we only have to sell, at the local level only, 4.38 percent take out of that $158 million in order to accomplish our first-year budget.

 

1496       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  With regards to the demographics that you're looking at, some might say that the demographic you're looking at, 45 and better, are hard to sell to advertisers in as much as they're not seen as the big spenders, that it's the sort of 18-to-34 or 12-to-24 who is the big spenders.  As soon as they cash, they have to spend it.  And the older demographic either tends to be not big on purchasing or fixed incomes or careful with money, et cetera.  What's your sense of that?

 

1497       MR. SMORDIN:  Well, I noted that in your questions yesterday to one of the applicants several commissioners raised that question.  I think I would not agree with that.  I don't think that they're not big spenders.  They may not be spenders on impulse but they certainly are wise spenders.  We are finding that ‑‑ remember we do have a level of commercialism with our sponsors that are supporting us, and of those sponsors that support us, the feedback that we get ‑‑ and it's documented ‑‑ the feedback that we get is that this is a very loyal audience, number one, and secondly, a very loyal spender to those people they wish to support.

 

1498       They want to support the station and then they want to support our sponsors.  So while it generally what you say is true from a general point of view, it doesn't reflect in the market that we're serving.  They are not big spenders, but they are wise spenders.

 

1499       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  If your revenue projections turn out to be too rosy, what do you do?

 

1500       MR. SMORDIN:  Well, we have financial support that has been demonstrated in the documentation.  As you note, there is an indication of both a gift and a loan.  As well, in our financial arrangements that we've made, we've obtained two rather large lines of credit with the financial institutions who are prepared to support us during either our first year or our second year or on an ongoing basis.

 

1501       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Mr. O'Donovan did you have anything to add, I saw you trying for the ‑‑ 

 

1502       MR. O'DONOVAN:  I was making sure that the button was actually off, just in case.  No, Mr. Smordin has indicated to us where you are.

 

1503       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Now, what about the financial or the economic projections?  As you're aware, the Conference Board of Canada subsequent to September of last year put out a revised downward economic projection for most parts of the country, Winnipeg included.  You look at some of the issues around, such as the possibility of MCI leaving town. What is your sense of how that affects your projections, given that I understand you would have put these projections together prior to September?

 

1504       MR. O'DONOVAN:  I think yesterday, Mr. Commissioner, that some of the applicants had come forward even with that information and they indicated that in the Winnipeg market this may not be a major factor across Canada.  It may well be in certain markets but I think there was a very positive tone set here yesterday as to what might happen locally.

 

1505       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  It's always nice to see agreement between the applicants on certain issues.

 

1506       MR. SMORDIN:  It was a common situation that we all looked at.

 

1507       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  A couple of technical questions.  You've applied for this frequency.  Just from a purely technical point of view, the kind of programming you plan, why would the use of 100.7 be a good and efficient use for your project?

 

1508       MR. SMITH:  So in other words now, confining it exclusive to technical matters of use of spectrum?

 

1509       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Yes.

 

1510       MR. SMITH:  Okay.  First of all, when we started, the band was really wide open from one end to the other.  It was high-power stations only for commercial operations and we basically could sort of take our pick of anywhere which did not provide interference to licensed broadcasters, and in conjunction with the great folks at Industry Canada, we worked out initially a frequency of 101.1. 

 

1511       Then, as the band became allocated to others, we shifted to 106.3, where we have been for several years now.  The change to 100.7 reflects, first of all, something in accordance with the local band plan.  100.7 is in fact a drop in frequency from St. Anne's, Manitoba, located to the southeast of here.  It has a population which would not really ever predictably support an FM operation.  And so with the approval of Industry Canada, we imported 100.7.

 

1512       It works well with respect to the mix of the potential for interference to other frequencies.  100.7 does not have any technical issues with respect to NavCom considerations.  And even though it's designated as being a low-power channel, by virtue of the protection which is required of a U.S. operation in North Dakota, we will still do very, very well with 1 kW essentially coverage to car radios from the U.S. border to approximately 20 miles north of Gimly.

 

1513       We already enjoy a coverage of in excess of 25 miles to a car radio with an ERP of 14 Watts.  When we go to basically ten times that, then we anticipate that the coverage will do quite well from our antenna on the roof of the Richardson Building.

 

1514       I can certainly discuss the engineering aspects in far greater detail.  I do have the technical brief here and the capability of interpreting it for you.

 

1515       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  No, that's fair.  If I can add an economic twist to that, if we were to license one of the other competitors, say, that you heard yesterday, as well as you, would that change your business case?  Put differently, how many commercial new FMs can the market manage?

 

1516       MR. SMITH:  Well, that's purely speculative on our part.  That's something that your support staff would, in fact, have a far greater ability to advise you with than I --

 

1517       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I assure you they do, but I want to know what --

 

1518       MR. SMITH:  -- except by perception on my part.  And if I may be allowed the perception of saying that if you were to flip KY to FM, it becomes revenue neutral.  If you were to license us, much of what would be proposed by the other applicants would be served.  You would be providing diversity and you'd be ensuring financial stability in the marketplace.

 

1519        So frankly, I see it as allow them to correct their technical deficiencies, license us and we serve the market with ‑‑ perhaps not throwing around as much money initially as some of the others have come forward and proposed as if this were an auction ‑‑ then we can do it. 

 

1520       So give us the opportunity to develop on a commercial basis, and we share the same sense of Canadian values as you do.

 

1521       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  Just on the matter of the auction, I want to assure you that we don't look at it as an auction, but rather what companies, given their relative size, what kind of contributions they can make to the system, is really what we're looking at.

 

1522       But if we were to license one of those two, would that change your ‑‑ you say you would be serving those needs.  Would that affect your business case?

 

1523       MR. SMITH:  It would certainly mean that we have to amend our plans but that's one that, frankly, we can't predict.  We either don't have the ability to foresee what will be the outcome of this or we could, in a sense, "what if" this to death and, frankly, waste very considerable financial effort in attempting to predict and be soothsayers.  And so really, we have to wait until we see what the fallout is from your decision.

 

1524       We have looked at some of the aspects, but it frankly has been sort of let's sit around the table and just quickly jot out some perceptions as opposed to employing a CA to say, well, these people are projecting X number of dollars of revenue, what happens if that comes off of the 25 or 26 million associated with the Winnipeg radio market et cetera.

 

1525       Frankly, we feel that we are capable and that we are able through demonstrated performance of living within a very, very limited budget, and so we just have better places to put our money.

 

1526       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay, thanks.  With regards to the frequency, have you looked at other available frequencies that could work for you?

 

1527       MR. SMITH:  No, we haven't because we were the first to apply.  We are the ones who kicked off this entire process.

 

1528       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Yes.

 

1529       MR. SMITH:  And 100.7 was identified by our engineer in the technical report as being suitable.  Everyone else are Johnny-come-latelies. They have identified additional frequencies beyond that identified by Industry Canada.  Those are still open to speculation as to whether or not they will be technically accepted. 

 

1530       You can look at a market like a Los Angeles or a New York where the technical issues are very, very different than we have in Winnipeg and they do it somehow.  I'm sure that the people at Industry Canada in conjunction with engineering consultants will come up with a workable solution.  However, as we speak, it's speculative and speculative only.

 

1531       So no, we have not looked at any additional frequencies.  We are limited by power.  We have a transmitting facility which is in a fixed location; it will not move.  Effective frequency has absolutely no coverage issues whatsoever.  In other words, 89.7 doesn't get out any better than 107.1.

 

1532       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So if I asked you which other frequency you'd be willing to accept if this were not granted you, what would you answer me?

 

1533       MR. SMITH:  Well, we would remain on 106.3 in the interim certainly.  But frankly, we spent a very considerable amount of money on a technical brief.  It would require that it be redone and resubmitted and so forth, and frankly, while I have the capability in conjunction with our consulting engineer of solving that problem, I see that we should not have to.

 

1534       That said, bottom line of your answer that your require, would we examine other possibilities?  The answer is yes.

 

1535       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Let me ask you one summarizing question in terms of the content of the spoken word part of your programming,  Give us a sense of the type of issues that you will be dealing with, that you will be speaking to that will be of interest to the demographic that you're focusing on.

 

1536       MR. GARDNER:  Our plans are for, certainly, news and information, and outside of newscasts, which would be spread throughout the entire broadcast day, we would have specialists who have a readiness to comply with the wishes of our audience about health, about medicine, about wealth, retirement, about a lot of the necessities of life after 45 years of age.  And they don't get it, quite as, in their terms of language, as we could make it with our understanding of what they would like to hear and hear about and hear so they understand.

 

1537       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay, thank you.  I just wanted to make one comment on the interventions.  As you know, we certainly encourage public participation.  You've had a lot of interventions that we have, I want to assure you, especially the audience, that we've gone through those written interventions.  A number of them were hand written and we take the time that's required to read them.  But they are all read and we thank people for making those interventions and certainly coming to a hearing and being here.  That doesn't, unfortunately, guarantee you a licence, but it's certainly given full weight and full consideration, and I thank you very much for the answers you've given us so far.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

 

1538       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Smith and colleagues, I do have some questions.  From your answer, Mr. Smith about how many FMs the market can bear, it leads me to believe that you consider yourself competitive with the Global and the Corus applications.

 

1539       MR. SMITH:  Well, in some respects the answer is yes.  In other respects, on a practical, a real basis, can we come forward with a multi-million dollar budget or the promise of giving away a great amount of money?  The answer is no.  We do not have the wherewithal.

 

1540       That said, for them to come forward and say, we're going to play Diana Krall, Holly Cole and another long list as long as your arm, that is what we play.  That is what we have played.  That is what we will play in the future.  We have a demonstrated performance of that.

 

1541       So if they are licensed, would it have an impact on the potential number of people that would listen to us?  The answer is yes.  Therefore, having seen their presentation and know finally where they are in fact going, the answer is yes, I would have to consider that, to a limited basis, I do consider them to be competitive, yes, to the ultimate success of our proposed venture.

 

1542       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes. And so the more serious impact then on your financial projections would be if we licensed either Global or Corus or both in terms of your projections over the next seven years?

 

1543       MR. SMITH:  Well, let's ‑‑ when I gaze into that crystal ball, it does look a little hazy, but I'll do my best to discern things out of the dim images.  That would be that Global is proposing basically local radio sales, essentially sort of slicing their piece out of the current $25 million approximately marketplace.  And while we are going for different advertising dollars, we are very committed to looking for the print media as our lake to fish.

 

1544       No doubt with the great promotion that Global are capable of doing through their combination of television and print media et cetera, then they certainly would have enough visual impact to be able to potentially sway advertisers toward them as opposed to toward us.

 

1545       The Corus application is something that it appears to me that really they're only out to protect additional market share and look for an additional property to increase the value of the corporation.  It does not appear ‑- but it's difficult to tell because their proposals here with respect to their programming were frankly so hazy that I'm still left with a less than clear image of what they actually wish to do.  So I can't really appropriately comment on that but perhaps Lyle can give a little more information.

 

1546       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Let me just put it this way.  Could you survive if we, in addition to, if we licensed you and one of Global and/or Corus?

 

1547       MR. SMITH:  I would think so, yeah.  I would think that where the Global application, which is strictly based on jazz, would only cross over with respect to a lot of Canadian content or a lot of contemporary Canadian music.  There was no mention, other than very slightly, of nostalgia radio.  And we really are a nostalgia radio station.  We do have our component of playing modern, especially Canadian, but we really are capital L nostalgia. 

 

1548       In the application by Corus, there was no real mention of that.  They talked about 25 percent of spoken word.  They talked about a news magazine program that would equate to what the CBC AM does now, and they also were talking about late night call-in shows.  That's a far cry from what we do.  It's a far cry, Madam Commission, from what we intend to do.  They're A/C, adult contemporary; we're nostalgia with some of the adult contemporary mixed in, but very slightly.

 

1549       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And from our perspective, if indeed, you see a challenge, should we license yourselves and one of Corus and/or Global, I want you to comment on ‑‑ we, the Commission, has the duty to promote Canadian content, Canadian talent.  On the one side, we have Corus, who by virtue of their format is required to do 35 percent Canadian content, and Global ‑‑ who, I think, they were doing 35 percent ‑‑ versus yourselves, who are going to have a much more limited Canadian content. 

 

1550       If we look at that, given our duty under the Act and our duty to promote Canadian content, how should we balance those two?

 

1551       MR. SMITH:  Well, I would remind you that the regulations are structured as such and they have just gone through review approximately two years ago, so their position was considered to be valid then.  There have been no changes since then, no amendments.  I have to assume, first of all, that that regulatory review, if it were deemed to be insufficient, would have corrected things at that time at the same time as it was ‑‑

 

1552       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, but Mr. Smith, you're competing with these people.

 

1553       MR. SMITH:  I recognize that.

 

1554       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So in the Winnipeg market we have the choice ‑‑

 

1555       MR. SMITH:  Mm-hmm.

 

1556       THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- of saying somebody who promises, by way of a condition, to offer 35 percent of their music selections as Canadian content versus somebody who is ‑‑ and as you say, you're competitive to them ‑‑ versus somebody who has a far lesser amount of Canadian content.

 

1557       How do we then rationalize a decision -- I mean, give me a reason why we would accept your application over that, providing higher Canadian content, something which we are statutorily required to do?

 

1558       MR. SMORDIN:  Well, we're not telling you not to accept it, but I can make the point that that's exactly what we're doing now.  We are mandated, our on-air people are mandated, to provide 35 percent Canadian content and lord help them if they don't.  And we would have the restrictions ‑‑

 

1559       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Smordin, though, particularly, you're asking for reductions.

 

1560       MR. SMORDIN:  I understand that.  But I'm saying right now we're doing that.

 

1561       THE CHAIRPERSON:  You're talking about 30 percent of Category 3; you're talking about the special reduction for pre-56.  So in a way, all we can say is we're authorizing more American content, and so I have to have a reason why we would do that.  And I'd really like to hear a reason why we would do that from you.

 

1562       MR. SMITH:  Well, the very first reason that I would put forth is that, number one, we've already indicated in the documentation that we will maintain the regulatory minimum of 35 percent with the application of the reductions, which are in the regulations, to be in compliance.  If you wish to exceed those minimum requirements, then frankly, that's your call and I don't presume to be able to influence that.

 

1563       However, we put together our application based on a very, very close examination of what was permitted under the regulations, thinking that that is what you deem as being acceptable, particularly so since they were revised as short a period of time as approximately three to five months prior to us putting in the application.

 

1564       And so can we come forward and say, oh yes, we'll guarantee 65 percent Canadian content and someone says, oh no, we'll give 66, in a bidding war to curry favour with you?  The answer is no.  Can we come forward and say we are in compliance with the documents that you've put forward?  The answer is yes.

 

1565       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Smith, the issue isn't currying favour with us.  The issue is promoting the objectives of the Broadcasting Act, and in a comparative analysis, that is what we do in a competitive process.

 

1566       I also wanted to talk to you about ‑‑ because you were referring to an auction and the CTD benefits.  I take it that you're aware of the value of a licence here in Winnipeg?

 

1567       MR. SMITH:  I am with respect to the full power operations.  There is a history of financial transactions.  We do not fit into that category because of lack of 100 kW frequencies, et cetera.  So yes, I am familiar with values placed on those radio stations.

 

1568       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And recent transactions have been in the range of seven to ten  million dollars?

 

1569       MR. SMITH:  That, they do not operate in a specialty category.  They could change format day after they were bought and become whatever it is they wish to become.  We cannot do that.  Therefore, I suggest that it limits the appeal to potential purchasers.  And so that when you are comfortable with making the decision to convert us from part-time to full-time operation, that I will not be selling the operation five weeks later for a quick cash grab and heading off to who knows where on the proceeds, and then you end up six months later with another rock station on the dial.

 

1570       THE CHAIRPERSON:  To be clear, though, you don't feel you're competing with any of the other low-power applicants?

 

1571       MR. SMITH:  No, we don't.  In fact, we support the concept put forward by Red River Community College.  I that think they will, from what I have seen on the document side, do something that would be beneficial to the industry and certainly to those people from Red River Community College.

 

1572       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

 

1573       LEGAL COUNSEL:  From the information that you've provided with the application and the music category breakdown chart, I think your application stated that you would draw a minimum of 55 percent of your music from Category 2.  Is that correct?

 

1574       MR. GARDNER:  Yes, I believe that's correct.

 

1575       LEGAL COUNSEL:  If the Commission wanted to place a maximum weekly Category 2 condition of licence at 55 percent, would you be comfortable with that?

 

1576       MR. GARDNER:  I don't think so, no.

 

1577       MR. SMITH:  With respect to that, I suppose I would need some more information from the Commission as to what purpose it would serve.  You know, I understand certainly the purpose of conditions of licence as being an enforceable appendage to the licence.  However, we've put forward a proposal at 55 percent Category 2.  If I wish to move that to 57 or to slide it back to something less than that from a weekly basis because of lack of availability of new artists or a flood takes out our music library or who knows what other contingency, I would hate to see us to be in violation of a licence restriction because of that.

 

1578       So perhaps you could give us just a tiny bit more information with respect to the purpose of the minimum of 55 percent Category 2 COL. In other words, what are we protecting here or restricting? 

 

1579       LEGAL COUNSEL:  It would help, I think, to define the music format.  That would be one of the purposes of placing such a condition on.

 

1580       MR. SMITH:  Well, our music format is very well known, quite frankly.  All you've got to do is turn on a receiver and listen to it.  We have absolutely zero intention of modifying it substantially, and most certainly, to be speculative, the only reason that I could see a condition of licence being of value to the Commission is so that you get what we say at this table, comes out of your speaker, when all is said and done.

 

1581       LEGAL COUNSEL:  That's precisely the purpose, exactly.

 

1582       MR. SMITH:  Well, in that case, would we accept a 55 percent Category 2 restriction?  Most likely.  But that said, we are here to provide exactly what we provide today.  We are not changing format -- end of conversation, full stop.  If for you to believe us, you require a condition of licence limiting us to 55 percent, then the answer is yes, we will accept it rather than no licence at all.  However, we're here to deliver.  Go ahead.

 

1583       LEGAL COUNSEL:  If the Commission wished to impose a different level of Category 2 maximum amount, what level would you be most comfortable with?

 

1584       MR. SMITH:  I'm sorry, Mr. Smordin was speaking with me and I'm afraid that I missed that.  Could you repeat it, please?

 

1585       LEGAL COUNSEL:  I was just saying if the Commission ‑‑ again, this is perhaps hypothetical so we have to be understood in that context.

 

1586       MR. SMITH:  All right.  Understood.

 

1587       LEGAL COUNSEL:  And what I was going to say is if -- you've answered that 55 percent.  But if you had your preference and the Commission wanted to impose a maximum weekly amount of Category 2 music, what would be your preference for a condition of licence?

 

1588       MR. SMITH:  I believe, if my memory serves me correctly, that the specialty category can be no greater than 70 percent by regulation.  Is that correct? 

 

1589       LEGAL COUNSEL:  That's right.

 

1590       MR. SMITH:  I'm recalling so I'm after your advice here.  Then frankly, I would look at being something consistent with the regulation applied to the rest of the industry, so 70 percent would be my recommendation to be in regulatory compliance and evenness.  But you know, I've already put forward that we would accept 55, so there we go. 

 

1591       There is a regulatory framework in place.  We have made our plans based on that promulgated regulation, and zero notice to anticipate something more restrictive than that without consultation is somewhat unfair, frankly.

 

1592       LEGAL COUNSEL:  If I can go for a minute to your staffing levels that you gave a few minutes ago in response to the one of the Commission's questions, I think Commissioner Cardozo, you indicated that there would be eight full-time persons and 27 part-time persons. 

 

1593       MR. SMORDIN: That's correct.

 

1594       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Thank you.  Are those persons specific to the programming function?

 

1595       MR. SMORDIN:  Do you mean are there positions that they fill into at the moment?

 

1596       LEGAL COUNSEL:  No, what I'm trying to understand from those figures is, are those specific programming or does that have, say, technical and sales staff mixed in as well?

 

1597       MR. SMORDIN:  Total, yes, total.  Total staff including technical, news, programming, et cetera.

 

1598       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Do you have a sense of how many of those eight plus 27 would be specific to the programming function as opposed to those that are for technical and sales, et cetera?

 

1599       MR. SMITH:  We do have a breakdown based on -- observing the proceedings yesterday, we did go back to our documentation, but we haven't put them in in subtotals by job category as of yet, but we'd be certainly prepared to do the addition on that for you and provide you with that information very shortly.

 

1600       MR. SMORDIN:  Do you want that in Phase II? 

 

1601       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Sure, a number of ‑‑

 

1602       MR. SMORDIN:  We'll come back in Phase II and provide you that tomorrow.

 

1603       LEGAL COUNSEL:  That would be great.  Thank you.  The other thing I was just curious about is whether you are proposing automated programming.

 

1604       MR. SMITH:  Well, we already have an automation system in service, first of all.  It supplements our live programming.  I see us providing automated in a live-assist capacity only.  We disagree philosophically with the provision of automated programming and previous voice tracking, whether that music originates on computer or 45 RPM disc or Edison cylinder is immaterial.  What is very, very important to us as a team is that the person that is on the air is the person that's sitting in the chair at the radio station, able to respond to the community, whether it's something as simple as saying, "Baby, it's cold outside," or something as significant as a tornado moving through the city from the west side.

 

1605       We do not agree conceptually with running the radio station voice tracked a week and a half in advance as a way to very, very quickly grab some cash.

 

1606       MR. SMORDIN:  And what we do now is we have someone there so that if someone phones for a request, it is very quickly put on the air and obviously has to be responded to by the person there, so it becomes extemporaneous in that regard.  That's what we do now; that's what we intend to do for the future.

 

1607       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Thank you.  I think a number of the applicants have said in this proceeding that looking at the older demographic a lot of seniors listen to AM radio; is that correct?

 

1608       MR. SMITH:  Well, they certainly probably used to.  The concept that a senior is so addled of brain that they don't understand what the FM button is for on a receiver because it's too complicated for them, frankly, went out with the dinosaurs themselves.  Yes, these people, some of them, listen to radio on a cat's whisker with an antenna in the farmyard quite literally, and yes, tune to AM.  The concept that "seniors," quotation mark use of seniors, will not be able to find us because we're on FM or ‑‑ you know, they use computers now for crying out loud versus cat's whiskers. 

 

1609       So AM tuning trends by age bracket, I think is transparent.  That's my opinion and certainly we have information to prove that that's the case, and let's bear in mind that one out of four people, according to our research have turned the radios off to turn them on extremely infrequently because what they perceive as being something relevant to them is no longer there on the radio.

 

1610       LEGAL COUNSEL:  If for any reason, as a result of this process, 100.7 MHz was unavailable for you to use as a result of this process, would it be an option for you or for the Commission to give you a licence on an AM frequency?

 

1611       MR. SMITH:  No, we would not accept an AM frequency.  I'll tell you that now.  It's too inefficient.  It would impact on our business plan to make it non-viable ‑‑ the cost of the real estate, even something as simple as the hydro.  AM operations are notoriously inefficient.  If you manage to get even 30 percent efficiency of the use of hydro, converting it from coming in from the power transformer to RF out of the antenna array, frankly I will not head an organization which has that form of inefficiency and hamstringing built into it. 

 

1612       We would continue with low-power FM operations because of its efficiency, because of the increased fidelity.  To put a music format on AM now from a cold start is, to me, a very risky venture without plunging the operation into a very long-term debt of years before breaking even, and I'm just not prepared to do that.  So in other words would we -- I think that I've made it very clear that AM licensing for us is not an option from a square one start-out. 

 

1613       We've already purchased the FM transmitter, the frequency is available, we have the site.  We'll get excellent coverage.  The antenna is sitting on the roof ready to be bolted together.  This is not the time to be changing to AM. 

 

1614       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Isn't CHWO on an AM frequency?

 

1615       MR. SMITH:  It certainly is, and they have excellent coverage out of Toronto with a transmitter site at the Toronto island area.  But that said, their business plan from day one was to operate an AM radio station building into their business plan those inefficiencies. 

 

1616       So do we see a conversion of everything that we've done to date from FM to AM as viable?  The answer is economically no, not for us.

 

1617       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Thank you.

 

1618       MR. SMITH:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

 

1619       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, gentlemen.  I am wondering if we can possibly do the presentation of HIS ‑‑ if we could take a five- or ten-minute break and do the presentation of HIS before this afternoon. 

 

1620       Is Mr. Hiebert around?  All right.  We'll take a short break, five minutes, and hear the HIS presentation.                                          --- Upon recessing at 1143 / Suspension à 1143          --- Upon resuming at 1155 / Reprise à 1155

 

1621       THE CHAIRPERSON:  If we could have order, please.  We will recommence.  Mr. Secretary.

 

1622       THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  The next application this morning is by HIS Broadcasting Inc. to carry on an English-language specialty FM radio station in Winnipeg.

 

1623       The new station would operate on frequency 107.1 MHz with an effective radiated power of 918 watts.  Mr. Hiebert.

 

           APPLICATION / APPLICATION

 

1624       MR. HIEBERT:  Good morning.  Was it something we said?  Good morning, Madam Chair, Commission and Commission staff. 

 

1625       My name is Tom Hiebert.  I'm president of HIS Broadcasting and I have the pleasure of introducing our panel today.

 

1626       On my right is Mr. Buzz Collins, a.k.a. Dave Mills, according to the documentation there.  He is the program director of the proposed FREQ 107 radio station.  He has 14 years of experience in the radio industry with a particular specialty in youth-oriented programming, in the Rock, Top 40 and Hip Hop formats.  Before his involvement with this project, he enjoyed success as the afternoon "drive home" announcer on the number one station in the 12-17 demographic in Winnipeg.

 

1627       Mr. Dan Kern, in the back row, is the owner of Creativeland Broadcast Services and has almost 20 years of experience in radio in both Manitoba and Saskatchewan in almost every role in radio including station management and consulting.  Dan has acted as our chief consultant on this project. 

 

1628       To my left is Mr. Dan Thomas.  He's a member of the alternative punk rock group, The Undecided, who have signed a recording contract with Tooth & Nail, the largest U.S. label specializing in Christian alternative rock music.  He is here today to represent the growing number of local artists who will not receive radio airplay except on a radio station like FREQ.

 

1629       Last but not least in the back row is Mr. Jack Hoeppner, who has acted as our engineering consultant on this project and is intimately familiar with the broadcast engineering components of our application. 

 

1630       We are here to apply for an FM undertaking in Winnipeg called FREQ 107.  FREQ 107 previously existed under a different licence holder in a similar format from October 1999 until December 2000.  While the radio station existed under a different licence holder, I served as the general manager and sole financial backer of the old FREQ.  During my involvement with the station, I contributed my 20-plus years of management experience in addition to almost half a million dollars towards the development of the project.

 

1631       When the previous licence holder decided to turn in the previous licence instead of selling the licence to us, we had to decide whether it was worth pursuing an application.  The outpouring of emotion from the audience not just in numbers, but also in the value that FREQ had in positively impacting the youth in Winnipeg, convinced us that this project should not die.

 

1632       So what is FREQ and why is it a valuable part of the Winnipeg community?  Our mission statement states that our purpose is "To broadcast musically oriented programming in a style that focuses on young people and advocates a morally positive lifestyle through love and acceptance while promoting a search for the truth."

 

1633       We strongly feel that a morally positive alternative radio station for young people is needed in Winnipeg.  Witness the facts that over 40 percent of high school aged people will use a drug other than alcohol this year.  That means a stronger drug.  Secondly, the number one cause of injury and death to young people is self-infliction, and 6.4 percent of 15 to 19 year-old-girls got pregnant last year, making Winnipeg 60 percent higher than the national average.

 

1634       We talked to many parents who expressed concern about the influence mainstream popular music was having on their children.  Among their concerns is that many of the lyrics of today's most popular songs promote sexual promiscuity, drug use and negative thinking.

 

1635       During the time that the station was on the air, and especially right after it went off the air, we received many e-mails, heard first-hand stories and talked to young people who were positively affected by the music played on FREQ.  As seen from both the parents' and the young person's perspective, we believe there is indeed a substantial link between music and societal issues, especially for young people.

 

1636       We believe that young people will make their own radio music choices but they need an alternative.  FREQ wants to provide this alternative.  FREQ will present morally positive lifestyle choices exclusively through the lyrics of the music played.

 

1637       While FREQ is not affiliated with any church, we have received major support from many churches in Winnipeg.  In fact, the five largest Protestant churches and others, plus representatives from the Roman Catholic Church in the city, are all supportive and excited about the concept of morally positive, non-judgmental radio for youth.

 

1638       Now, I would like to turn it over to Buzz Collins at this point to describe the music format that FREQ will use to attract this audience. 

 

1639       MR. COLLINS:  Thank you, Tom.  In August of 2000, our GM, Tom, went to Toronto and reviewed the comments sent in to BBM as a result of the Spring 2000 book.  About half of those 2,000 people surveyed in Winnipeg included additional comments in the BBM diary.  One of the most prevalent issues was the need for positive radio especially for young people.  As program director of FREQ 107, it's a priority of mine to keep our jock talk positive and relevant without ever being preachy.

 

1640       Early in the planning for FREQ, we did a survey of the musical preferences of several hundred local high school students.  We have shaped the format of FREQ to match the stylistic tastes of our survey.

 

1641       Our targeted demographic is 12-to-24 years old.  We'll attract this audience with a unique blend of new rock, punk and rap core.  Our main target will be high school aged youth and with our particular format, the sound will certainly be oriented towards the male portion of that demographic.  Since there are many males whose tastes don't mature until later in life -- I expect we'll attract an audience even above the 12-to-24-year-old demo.

 

1642       I would add that with this particular target demographic in mind -- teens with a male slant ‑‑ FREQ is further differentiated from any other youth oriented station in Winnipeg, which when programming to young people, generally slant toward females.  The unique approach which FREQ is taking will help to fill a cultural void in radio programming and serve a much neglected segment of our community.

 

1643       Other evidence of our differentiation is that most of our artists are not played on any other radio station in Winnipeg.

 

1644       While most of our play list would consist of artists classified as "Contemporary Christian," we intend to also play other popular artists whose lyrical content has a moral and positive message.  This would include the likes of Creed, U2, Lenny Kravitz, Collective Soul and others.  However, the number of "secular" artists would not exceed the 5 percent allowance as indicated within the terms of this particular licence.

 

1645       Once again, thank you, and I will now turn it back to Tom. 

 

1646       MR. HIEBERT:  Thanks, Buzz.  When we decided to apply for this licence in December of 2000, I was faced with a difficult challenge.  I felt we had a core group of people who had a similar passion to mine and who were the nucleus of a team that could produce good radio.  Without income for these people, they would have had to move on to other employment and in fact the dream for FREQ would die.  But the reason to keep the dream alive is not based on financial gain but a passionate altruistic desire to have a positive impact on the youth culture of Winnipeg.  So the core group stayed employed by HIS Broadcasting while waiting for this licence to be approved.

 

1647       During our waiting period as a team, we have been involving ourselves in a number of activities related to the youth of our city.  These activities include producing an arena concert featuring one of the most successful groups in our genre, a group called P.O.D.  The concert was a success, attracting over 3,000 young people.  Another current activity that we're working on is the promotion and production of a "Snow-Jam" event which will include a Battle of the Bands, specifically for high school students.  This is co-sponsored by The Forks.  By the way, we expect five to ten thousand young people to be at The Forks when this occurs.  As well, we have been involved in many other smaller events and causes.

 

1648       Since July, we have been working with a number of charitable organizations and helping them promote special events through the use of special event licences and through audio streaming on the Internet.  This has allowed us to maintain an interest in the FREQ concept both with financial sponsors and with a core audience.  A beneficial by-product has been that we have been able to continue to refine our musical playlist and keep our announcers sharp in the process.

 

1649       Consequently, there is a financial, operational and promotional momentum in place for FREQ.  There are a number of companies such as Henry Armstrong's and Quark Shoes among others, who have committed to be long-term advertisers on FREQ.

 

1650       While we are working to achieve a monthly revenue base of approximately $500,000 per annum within 24 months of operation under the new licence, we feel we can build a station with a significant impact on the youth culture with a basic budget of $250,000 per annum.  It is our plan or management strategy to not spend above the base budget figure until our revenue starts to match our expenses on a monthly basis.

 

1651       The only exception to the above will be some minor capital expenses.  These costs will be balanced against capital that has been raised from some outside sources.

 

1652       Regardless of the revenues that we achieve, this station will not have a negative impact on the marketplace.  This is primarily due to the small size of the station and that we anticipate some of our advertisers will be new to radio.

 

1653       Any operational shortfall for HIS Broadcasting will come from its parent company, Kesitah Inc., which is owned by my wife and myself.  A personal statement of net worth has been confidentially supplied to the Commission and from that you will be able to see that there's enough finances available to adequately fund this station.

 

1654       I would like to now introduce Dan Thomas, who is a member of North American recording artists, The Undecided.  He will describe the value that FREQ will have in allowing his band and other local bands to gain exposure.

 

1655       MR. THOMAS:  As Tom mentioned, we are a Steinback, Manitoba, based band that has been signed to an American label, one of the largest within our genre, and that has enabled us greatly to gain exposure and travel to the United States.  But where the struggle is is in our own back yard.  The struggle for Canadian bands is to get American airplay, to receive American exposure.  Like I mentioned, that hasn't been a struggle for us.  Getting Canadian airplay and Canadian exposure has been a real challenge.  It has been a chore for us. 

 

1656       FREQ has allowed us to get radio airplay.  We've received e-mails from kids within the city asking, "Where have you guys been?  We've never heard of you before."  And we're living, you know, streets down.

 

1657       I know it's in our band's best interest and numerous friends' bands from Winnipeg that FREQ stay alive on the air.  Those small local bands that don't have the benefits we have, being on a big label like we are, that's really all they do have.  There's no other way for kids to hear the message they're trying to send out, which is a positive one, and I would encourage the Commission to take that to heart.

 

1658       MR. HIEBERT:  Thanks, Dan.  Our experience has shown that there is significant talent in our genre in the Winnipeg marketplace.  However, there are few bands that have CDs or singles that have enough quality for radio play. 

 

1659       The problem is not musical talent but production quality.  Typically, these bands do not have enough money for professional production.  Consequently, we have allocated a major portion of our Canadian Talent Development budget to producing local bands using a professional producer.  This plus some decent promotion will give significant opportunity for a number of local bands to gain success outside Winnipeg and maybe even into the U.S. like The Undecided.

 

1660       At this time, I would like to thank the over 100 people who positively intervened for FREQ.  These are people who believe in the concept of a cool radio station for youth that also promotes positive morals rather than being driven only by financial motives.

 

1661       In summary, the reasons the CRTC should award this licence to HIS Broadcasting are:

 

1662       (a) There already is momentum for the FREQ radio concept including a significant core audience.

 

1663       (b) The funding and advertising revenue are in place to ensure self-sufficiency within two years without negatively impacting the marketplace.

 

1664       (c) Tenacity.  The core group of people involved in this project have stuck through ups and downs over two years including the last 13 months, where we have been hoping for CRTC approval of this application.

 

1665       (d) No other station in the marketplace will be focused on the under-18 demographic.

 

1666       (e) The youth of Winnipeg need morally positive alternatives to the music that would otherwise be available, done in a style that young people will find attractive. 

 

1667       And (f) passion.  Speaking for the core group of people who have been involved in FREQ for over two years now, I can say that this has become a passion to us.  To date, it has involved significant sacrifice, occasional heartbreak, but we are more committed than ever to bring this concept to the youth of Winnipeg.

 

1668       Thank you for your attention and your interest in our application.

 

1669       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Hiebert, gentlemen.  I think we will now adjourn until two o'clock this afternoon for questioning of your panel.  Thank you.                                                 -- Upon recessing at 1210 / Suspension à 1210                             -- Upon resuming at 1400 / Reprise à 1400

 

1670       THE CHAIRPERSON:  If we can come back to order.  The panel will be minus Mr. Thomas and I'll ask Commissioner Williams to ask the questions.

 

1671       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good afternoon, Mr. Hiebert and panel members.  I'm going to begin my questions through the same general format and area that all the other applicants have gone through. 

 

1672       In Schedule 5 of your application, you describe how you will offer the relevant local spoken word programming on the station in accordance with the Commission's local programming policy of 1993‑38.  This programming includes one hour and 19 minutes of news, weather and sports, local stories and events featuring ‑‑ during DJ patter, locally produced special interest programs, locally produced comedy and special interest vignettes, and local community billboard style programming to be scheduled as needed.

 

1673       Could you describe in more detail the kind of local content that your audience can expect from these various programming segments, for example, in your special interest programs, the comedy and special interest vignettes, and your local stories and event features during live DJ segments. 

 

1674       As well, outside of your one hour and 19 minutes news, weather and sports commitment, how many hours and/or minutes would be devoted to this type of locally relevant spoken word programming on the average weekly basis?

 

1675       MR. COLLINS:  In our previous existence, we had various vignettes.  As far as the comedy vignettes and what not, we had different features which were usually left up to the discretion of the on-air personality, for example myself.  I had an ongoing feature called Buzz's Bible Headlines.  This was a daily feature which ran about three to four minutes.

 

1676       As far as forecasting any future comedy vignettes, as the program director I'm expecting that to be handled by the on-air staff and their own individual creativity with their shows.  I'm not, at this point, programming any specialty vignettes or specialty comedy programs.  We are certainly more of a music-oriented format.

 

1677       AS far as news, currently under our special event licence we have two news broadcasts in the morning that, with news, sports and weather, run about three to four minutes and it's our intention especially with the direction that we're taking with the station towards a male slant in our demographic, that we really want to give the station more of a sports kind of feel to it and focus a lot more on the sports side of things, as per se political affairs or the news segments and what not. 

 

1678       So our intention is to perhaps put together some featured programming which would centre more around sports events.  We currently run something called the Winnipeg High School Hockey Report.  That runs, in essence, three to four minutes once a week.  But at this point in time, that's as much as ‑‑ as far as programmed specialty spoken features.

 

1679       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You indicate in the deficiency dated April 18th, 2001, that newscasts would be one minute in length, to be scheduled hourly between 6:00 a.m. and 9:00 a.m. weekdays and feature 75 percent local stories.  The balance of your one hour and 19 minute news information commitment would be made up of 30-second weather updates scheduled hourly over 98 hours of live and voice track programming.  And I note your target audience is youth-oriented, 12 to 24 years.

 

1680       How many staff will you dedicate to gathering and airing local news and information stories, and will you be using outside news sources, and if so, who are these sources?

 

1681       MR. COLLINS:  At present we don't have any plans on using outside sources for news gathering.  Currently, it's the responsibility of one individual person as far as putting together our news reports.  We do a weather break.  I didn't include that as program spoken content but we do approximately a one‑minute weather break every hour that we actually have on-air people on the air.  We have straight music flow from 10:00 p.m. until 7:00 a.m., and one of the reasons we no longer have a newscast for 6:00 a.m. is we don't have anybody on the air up until 7:00 a.m. 

 

1682       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How will you ensure these stories as well as your other local-oriented spoken word will be relevant to your young audience target?

 

1683       MR. COLLINS:  Well, it's one of my ongoing tasks and one of the things I lean on our current on-air staff about is to be as relevant as possible.  Our particular demographic is somewhat of a challenge because they ‑‑ more than any other demographic I can think of, you need to prove some credibility to them, and the credibility will only come through relevance.

 

1684       From my own experience, I'd like to think that I know what matters, what is relevant to our target demographic and what isn't.  This is something that I, through air checks and what not, work on a continual basis as we exist right now. 

 

1685       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Who will be responsible for the content of your newscasts?

 

1686       MR. COLLINS:  Well, the buck stops with me as the program director, but that one person who is the morning host is responsible not only to be the morning host but they're fulfilling two duties.  They're our news director, if you want to use that title for them, but they are responsible for putting together the newscasts. 

 

1687       If I find that it's not local enough, if it's not within a 75 percent of local stories and if it's certainly not relevant, that's up to me to correct and guide that particular individual.

 

1688       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You have limited scheduling of your one-minute newscasts on weekly mornings hourly between 6:00 and 9:00.  However, radio tuning by youth and young adults is generally much higher weekdays during the late afternoon, evenings and on weekends.  Why have you chosen not to schedule any youth-oriented news and information programming during that time?

 

1689       MR. COLLINS:  It's certainly not that we look at news programming as less important.  But with that particular demographic, just to be honest, a two-minute news package for the audience that we're trying to attract is more of a tune-out factor than anything else.  I've entertained the thought of having newscasts perhaps in the peak drive hours, 3:00 p.m., 4:00 p.m. and 5:00 p.m., similar to the morning show, but nothing more than a one-minute news update followed by maybe a traffic update with the sports and the weather. 

 

1690       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Could you elaborate for us as to why you feel your spoken word proposals are sufficient to meet both the needs of your local audience and the spirit of the local programming definition and policy?

 

1691       MR. COLLINS:  Going back to our target demographic, it's our desire at least to keep our -- in an effort of being relevant with our audience, obviously we need to keep them up to daFAQte with what's going on in the world and in their own community.  I do feel that a morning newscast as we're doing it right now does that sufficiently. 

 

1692       I certainly don't have a problem with a newscast of a similar nature in the afternoon, but with our -- if I was programming for a higher demo, I would certainly lean heavily on more spoken content as far as information packages and what not.  I'd rather use that time in artist foreground, relevant -- and when I say relevant, I mean relevant to the audience we're targeting ‑‑ relevant community updates, for example, whether it's in the winter a snowboard event, or in the summer a skateboarding demonstration or a pick-up type hockey tournament, things like that.

 

1693       I'd rather have some kind of a community billboard which isn't a community billboard necessarily for everybody ‑‑ I mean we wouldn't be hosting bake sales and things like that ‑‑ but something that's going to be true to the audience that we're targeting.

 

1694       We want to come across truly as the ‑‑ that these listeners feel that they own the station. And if we lean more on the news side of things where, like I said, we're creating more of a tune-out factor, I feel.

 

1695       MR. HIEBERT:  If I just might add, I think one of the things that just in the banter from the jocks will be talking about things that are very relevant to the youth audience, so it's news in a sense in a very different way.  They're interested in what's happening in pop culture and what's happening to the artist, what's happening in sports, that sort of stuff.  So it might be a little less formal but it is still in a sense news and information that we're giving out almost on every break with the DJs. 

 

1696       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You've characterized your application, then, its proposed programming commitments as being essentially the same as the Christian Solutions Group, an application, CFAQ‑FM, approved in decision CRTC 99-467.  In this regard I note that the Christian Solutions Group made a programming commitment to broadcast a minimum of 15 percent Canadian content in Category 3 music, a level which exceeds the minimum regulatory requirement of 10 percent.  However, it appears you've chosen to broadcast only the regulatory minimum level of 10 percent Canadian content in Category 3 music. 

 

1697       Would you explain to the panel why you've opted only to offer the regulatory minimum for your Category 3 Canadian content and not propose to at least match or possibly even exceed the previous licensee's commitment of 15 percent Canadian content in Category 3 music?

 

1698       MR. COLLINS:  Actually, it is our intention, granted the approval of this licence, to program 15 percent Canadian content. 

 

1699       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  In your application you indicate that revenues will come from three sources:  local advertisers, national advertisers and program sponsors.  Now, will both you and CHVN‑FM be soliciting advertising and sponsorship from the same sources?

 

1700       MR. HIEBERT:  There might be some overlap but because of quite a difference in terms of demographic, I think that the advertisers that we'll be going after will be quite different than they will be.  For example, right now this isn't advertising but it is a relationship that we have with The Forks, is an organization that I don't think particularly that CHVN would be going after because it's geared to a snowboard park, very much a 17-year-old male kind of thing.

 

1701       We intend, in terms of our marketing and our sales strategy, to be very, at least initially, very directed towards those advertisers that are very specific to our demo.  Now, we understand that's a relatively niche target.  But for example, snowboard shops and skateboards and things like that would be an example of something that we would go after.  I think it would be very different than almost any other radio station in the city.

 

1702       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Is there enough advertising and sponsorship dollars to support both stations and have you conducted studies to substantiate that there's enough revenue for both services?

 

1703       MR. HIEBERT:  You know, quite frankly I don't think the issue at all is CHVN for us, I mean the issue -- to some degree, who we're competing against might be some of the other stations, although none of -- I shouldn't say none of them ‑‑ their target wouldn't be as young as ours so therefore that means a different kind of advertiser.  CHVN just isn't a real issue when it comes to advertising at all.

 

1704       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Do you have any commitments from churches or para-churches for programming sponsorship, and why are you projecting decreasing annual amounts from $100,000 in year one to zero in year six?

 

1705       MR. HEIBERT:  When we put the application in, we had had some conversations with some of the churches and felt that that was something that was going to be fairly significant.  I think, as it turns out and if I were to project it right now, it would be considerably less than what we projected, partly because it has lost momentum.  It has been 13 months so it has lost some momentum.  To make up for that, I think we have done a number of other things that have sort of replaced that in terms of revenue potential so I would see less coming from that.  There will be some but not to the degree that you see in the application.

 

1706       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  In Schedule 18 of your application, you state your audience market share for the year 2002 is expected to be at least 2 percent.  Our records indicate that CFAQ-FM achieved one-half percent share in the fall of 2000 and CHRI-FM in Ottawa achieved about a one percent share.  So what are you -- how do you arrive at this 2 percent estimate?

 

1707       MR. HIEBERT:  That's a really good question.  First of all, because of that, 2002 is now 2003, you know, a year out.

 

1708       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes, I understand.

 

1709       MR. HIEBERT:  First of all, a couple of things, the fall book for the old FREQ was done right at a major change.  Now, the old FREQ had started out at 93.5 and then we had applied to increase the power to 1,000 watts.  Now, that's where we ran into a bit of a problem because if we were to increase at 93.5 we found out that we would have been interfering with the Eagle out of Winkler and so there was sort of an issue that occurred there. 

 

1710       And with the great help of Industry Canada they found 107.1 for us and we actually moved to 107.1 on September 12th of 2000.  So that book, it was like a brand new station in some way.  The very first book for FREQ 93 was actually a 1.1 share.  And the other thing I should mention about that, that particular radio station and the objective of that radio station, the way that it was programmed was very much geared to the church community which would be a limited sub-set of the whole community.

 

1711       One of the nuances of what we're trying to do here is make this type of music in a fashion that is not a preachy kind of a way, make this music accessible outside of just the church community.  So in other words, we are actually attacking an audience that is much greater than what the audience of the original FREQ 93.5 was.

 

1712       So that gives us the reason to think that after a year or two, we can be at a 2 to even more share.

 

1713       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Thank you.  In your financial projections, you've budgeted $129,000 in year one for sales and promotions and it increases over the years to $163,000 in year seven.  This is a significant proportion of expenses and it's just under your programming budget.  Can you explain why this level of sales and promotion is required?

 

1714       MR. HIEBERT:  Part of it ‑‑ and it may be just a matter of labelling.  Part of that was, I believe, the commissions for salespeople was involved in that.  The amount of promotion would be -- it was about, I think less than a third of that, about a quarter of that.  We do feel that -- and we do want to do significant promotion of this radio station should we be granted a licence.  Part of it is because we're new, we're different and this is not -- this type of music and these type of artists are all unknown in this marketplace and we feel that they're great artists, so we do feel that we have to do some significant promotion.  And it's significant given the size of the station, not significant given obviously other stations, but significant given the size of the station.

 

1715       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  What are your plans to keep the station in operation should advertising and program support estimates prove to be overly optimistic?

 

1716       MR. HIEBERT:  As I mentioned in our presentation, we said that we could run this station and make a significant impact on the youth culture at about half those projected expenses.  So we could probably run the station in the order of $250,000 a year. 

 

1717       We feel very confident that we can get revenue at least close to that.  Even having said that we have enough funding to make up the shortfall at that number, and then we would have a management strategy of keeping our expenses down to that number until we were certain of revenue beyond that.  So it is something that, quite frankly, I've thought about for 13 months so I think we've got a good handle on how we're going to do that.

 

1718       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Since the fall of 2001, the Conference Board of Canada has revised downward many areas of projected GDP growth including the City of Winnipeg.  How will this affect your business plan and advertising revenues in particular?

 

1719       MR. HIEBERT:  I've sat through yesterday and today and this question has been asked quite a bit and I think there's been quite a few suggestions that maybe that, as far as the radio market in Winnipeg is concerned, that that number in fact has grown.  I wouldn't say that our station is ‑‑ we're probably somewhat insulated from a lot of the same kind of ups and downs that the economy might have in terms of some other radio stations just by the fact that our numbers, the amount of revenue that we need is so small. 

 

1720       I think that we have multiple ways of getting that revenue, so I don't think that -- it probably impacts the up side, like the $500,000 number, it probably impacts that to some degree.  I don't think it affects the bottom number, the lower number.

 

1721       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  As you know, six other applicants propose to use various FM frequencies in Winnipeg.  Under this scenario, the Commission seeks the competitors' views to assist it in deciding which applicant has proposed the best use of the frequency.  From a strictly technical perspective, in what way does your proposal constitute the best use of frequency 107.1?

 

1722       MR. HIEBERT:  Well, first of all, since we're already operating on, at that power at that frequency from that tower and that height, in our situation it's something that's a known.  It's known to NAV Canada; it's known to Industry Canada.  So that's one aspect of it. 

 

1723       The second aspect of it is we do know there's a limitation from NAV Canada on that frequency at 1,000 watts.  So we fit right into that.  It's just the right place for us.

 

1724       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Can you give us your opinion, given the relative scarcity of FM frequencies in Winnipeg, what would be preferable in the marketplace at this time:  licensing a new FM service, or moving an existing radio service from the AM to FM band, or both?

 

1725       MR. HIEBERT:  We're a little radio station and you're asking us a question about some major things with major organizations, and I don't really know that I have an opinion on that.

 

1726       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So I'm to take it then whatever we decide would be fine with you?

 

1727       MR. HIEBERT:  As long as you choose us.

 

1728       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I can't make any promises.  It's still early in the process.

 

1729       Have you or your engineering consultants conducted studies to find an alternate FM frequency that could be used in Winnipeg either for your application or the other applicants, and if so, what were your findings?

 

1730       MR. HIEBERT:  We have done nothing in that regard.

 

1731       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  If, for any reason, the frequency 107.1 in Winnipeg was not available, would you be able, ready and willing to use another frequency for your proposed station?

 

1732       MR. HIEBERT:  We went through a lot of trauma moving from 93.5 to 107, so we do understand the trauma of doing it and the impact on our audience.  Now, given the fact that essentially we've been off the air, the impact might be slightly less, but I guess I would say that we would consider it.

 

1733       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Can you elaborate on that a little, maybe comment on the impact it may have on your business plan?

 

1734       MR. HIEBERT:  One thing that is very important to us and will be very important in the future to us is a logoing and branding of what we're trying to do.  I mean obviously we have the name FREQ and that does catch some attention. So I think there would be some minor impact on that, FREQ 107 versus FREQ 101 or something.  That would be one impact.  And then there would be some engineering issues, so there would be some costs there. 

 

1735       Roughly speaking, I think this is probably a direct cost of $20,000 that would affect us.  It's obviously something I wouldn't want to spend but if we had to we probably would.

 

1736       COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Thank you very much.  That concludes my questions, Madam Chair.

 

1737       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Williams.  Commissioner Cardozo?

 

1738       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you very much for the information you've provided so far.  I have a few questions but first tell me what HIS and FREQ stand for.

 

1739       MR. HIEBERT:  HIS is the name of the company that would own the licence and owns the radio station.  It actually stands for Hiebert Inspirational Support.  There happens to be a foundation by the same name so we just decided to call this company HIS Broadcasting.  It has, perhaps, a meaning that means that the ownership of this may not be, in my terms, so much me as God. 

 

1740       As far as FREQ is concerned, it just means frequency.

 

1741       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I should have thought of that.  I wanted to ask you about the concept of morally positive, non-judgmental radio that you talked about.  Some would argue that faith broadcasting, whatever faith, is judgmental by its nature, and I don't mean this in a negative sense.  You make about a judgment about a certain faith that you like and you adhere to it; either you're born into that or you choose to follow it.  Even if you're born into it, likely you make a choice at some point as to how involved you're going to be.

 

1742       So how could a faith-based broadcaster be non-judgmental, and perhaps especially when you're dealing with youth where youth perhaps challenge the norms, some might say, more than others?

 

1743       MR. HIEBERT:  It's an excellent question and certainly something --

 

1744       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  You're very kind when you say that.  You almost automatically get my vote to say it's a good question.

 

1745       MR. HIEBERT:  It was a brilliant question. 

 

1746       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Still, it's almost.

 

1747       MR. HIEBERT:  It's certainly something that is very core to what we think about, about who we are as a radio station.  There are people that would ‑‑ and I'll say this ‑‑ people in the church community that have seen what we want to do and seen what we're about that would say that we're not spiritual enough, you know, that we're not stating our faith directly enough.  But that is what we're trying to accomplish, is not trying to tell people, very directly at least, you know, where to find truth or what faith is. 

 

1748       What we're trying to do is have young people consider spiritual issues but in a very, I'll say, soft way.  We play the music.  The on-air people are not talking about faith at all; they're just talking about real life.  So what we're trying to do is develop a relationship with the young people of Winnipeg, a relationship that's one-way through radio, and with this relationship we are trying to encourage them in what I would call a morally positive direction.  That's a very wide-open thing.  We have a standard that we would call morally positive for us, at least personally for each person that works in the radio station; that would be a Biblical standard. 

 

1749       However, that standard, I don't think, is particularly offensive to anybody, when you talk about moral principles.  In terms of trying to, shall we say, convert people to the Christian faith, we don't really see that as our job.  We see our job as being to introduce them to spiritual issues and to perhaps start young people on that journey.

 

1750       We believe that there are lots of other organizations and lots of churches who can take the job, shall we say, from that point to whatever, whether it be converting them -- not converting them but starting to become Baptists or starting to become Presbyterians or Roman Catholics or whatever.  We don't get into that.  All we're trying to do is just make -- not make, but encourage young people to examine faith, examine spiritual issues, and we're trying to sell them on considering that and advocating a morally positive lifestyle.

 

1751       So it's a really key issue.  It's a really tough issue because in some sense, you know, we're not really aligned with any church and we're not really doing some things that some people in the church would like us to do, to be much more out there and preaching and stuff like that.  Well, we're before all of that.  We're just trying to develop a relationship.

 

1752       MR. COLLINS:  If I could just add to what Tom is saying, there's a paradigm within Christian broadcasting, within Christian radio ‑‑ and not that I'm saying it's wrong, but there has been a paradigm that the purpose of Christian radio is to present an answer for its listeners.  And what we are attempting to do, given the audience that we're targeting, is not to come across necessarily with an answer but to get them to ask questions, to present a question for them rather than to present an answer.

 

1753       It's, we find, for the audience we're targeting, a lot less of a presumptuous strategy.

 

1754       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So if somebody, if a young person adheres to a lot of what the Bible says but has a difference of opinion on a certain aspect, are you saying they wouldn't be judged out of your fold, in a sense?

 

1755       MR. HIEBERT:  No, absolutely not.  I think -- we've had some examples, quite a few examples already of people who listen to our station and for the first while don't realize that there is a spiritual message behind a lot of the songs.  And when asked, when they discover that there is, they ask, "Does that bother you?" and they'll say, "No, no problem at all." 

 

1756       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  How do you plan to deal with balance?  As you know balanced programming in faith programming has been one of the issues that we've been trying to address, which is how do you give voice to people who don't share your views or have different views than what is usually coming across?  I'm not saying give the drug pushers -- we're not talking all the way up there, but people who in a strict sense, 0may have different views about certain things?

 

1757       MR. HIEBERT:  My understanding that the issue of balance is related to spoken word.  It's not an issue related to music. Aand in spoken word, like I said, there's no real discussion of faith per se by our jocks or anything like that.  So it's really just not an issue. 

 

1758       What we're trying to do is develop a relationship with young people and talk about things that the average young person going to a high school, maybe doesn't go to church ‑‑ we will be very relevant to them in terms of what we do, how we talk on a day-to-day basis.  They will have a choice about attending some of the events that we might sponsor or promote and they will have a choice about just things like that.

 

1759       But in terms of balance, I don't think it's really an issue because we're not really talking about faith on the air, directly.

 

1760       MR. COLLINS:  Just as an example, one program we ran for the first little while a few months after we started up on our specialty licence, on our special event licence rather, was something called The Sounding Board and we had a host who would present an issue.  Some of the varying topics were is censorship right or wrong.  Never did we express our opinion as to whether it was, and that was specifically the strategy not to get a bunch of callers and then at the end sum up what's the right thing.  We just put the question out there.  So through this one hour weekly program we had called The Sounding Board, we presented a variety of issues that particularly were relevant to our target audience.

 

1761       Unfortunately, maybe we were expecting too much from that target audience.  We ended up pulling it just because of lack of -- evidenced by lack of calls, lack of interest, I think.  Our audience would rather hear another song than hear somebody expound on why censorship is right or wrong.

 

1762       But it's a very good example of our very attitude, is not to point out to somebody what they're doing right or what they're doing wrong but get people talking, get people asking questions.

 

1763       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Even within that realm, you might end up in a situation where it appears to some people that even though you're having an open discussion on censorship that you're taking one view, the host of the program.

 

1764       MR. COLLINS:  I would have to say actually with this particular host we had, he did not expound on which was -- to my recollection as to, for example, the issue of censorship.  By the end of the show he did not sum up and say what his personal opinions were.  And that was the direction at the very beginning, at the launch of that show, was that he was more of a moderator than anything else.  It was not a chance for him to spout off or to preach or anything like that.

 

1765       MR. HIEBERT:  The obvious thing too is that on a show like that the person could call in and express the opposite opinion, so in that sense there would be balance for that kind of situation.

 

1766       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  Thank you very much.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

 

1767       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I only have a few questions.  Normally my colleagues say only two.  You talked about Cancon and I think it was in Category 3 and you had committed to a minimum of 10, and then, I think, Mr. Collins, you said it is our intention to go to 15.  Are you committing to a COL to do that or --

 

1768       MR. COLLINS:  Absolutely.

 

1769       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And my second question is more about the market and what's happening here.  We have CHVN, which is a Christian service, say we have you, and then say we have Trinity. 

 

1770       MR. HIEBERT:  Sorry -- TV?

 

1771       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Television, yes.  For a community of 707,000, is that too much?  Are we exhausting the traditional sources for Christian-oriented programming when we do that?  Because it's one thing to talk about the commercial stations and worrying about exhausting those sources of funding, but we're putting one on top of the other on top of the other, or may potentially, and so I'd like to hear your comments on that.

 

1772       MR. HIEBERT:  Specifically on programming, I think, was -- are we exhausting programming?

 

1773       THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, no, I'm talking revenue.  Revenue sources.

 

1774       MR. HIEBERT:  Revenue?

 

1775       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

 

1776       MR. HIEBERT:  One aspect of it is when you are going out and selling your advertising, you're selling your advertising based on who is listening to you.  The audience that will listen to CHVN will be almost -- almost ‑‑ 100 percent different than the audience that will listen to us, and we're differentiated in two ways. 

 

1777       One is age.  We're very much 12-24.  They are very much 25-plus except for except for a few exceptions.  The other aspect of it is because of the way that we're doing our programming, we're going outside, I'll say, the Christian culture, the Christian community and we're trying to make our station acceptable to anybody.  I believe, without putting words in their mouth, but I believe that they are very much working to satisfy the Christian community, so very differentiated that way.  I think also geographically a little bit.  I mean they obviously are in Winnipeg and we're just in Winnipeg, but they are also outside the Winnipeg -- the have access to sources of revenue from southern Manitoba that we don't particularly have because we just don't reach there, or wouldn't reach there, I should say.

 

1778       So I'm not at all concerned at all about any overlap with CHVN.  Trinity Television, I think, is just a different animal altogether.

 

1779       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And what I was more thinking about was purchased programming and support by religious institutions in the sense that I understand your point about the different demographic and for advertisers that would be important, but in terms of purchased programming or donations from religious institutions, you don't think the well will go dry with potentially three of you in the market, TV and two radio stations?

 

1780       MR. HIEBERT:  I don't think that that -- I know that that's not a huge part of what we're expecting in terms of our revenue to come from that source.  I think we will get some support but it's for a very, very different reason.  The reason that we will get some support is because we ‑‑ it would be almost like the reason Salvation Army would get support, you know, because they're going out and doing things sort of outside of the church community.  That's why we would get support.  And I don't think that those kind of dollars would normally go to CHVN anyway or Trinity Television.  So I just think we're so different that I don't think it's an issue at all.

 

1781       THE CHAIRPERSON:  And one last question, the special events licence.  Since FREQ's untimely death, let's call it, how much have you been broadcasting with the special licence?

 

1782       MR. HIEBERT:  We've been on ‑‑ I'll just call it rolling special event licences, so we've been dealing with charitable organizations.  We've had one after the other so we've been on constantly since July.

 

1783       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So literally full time?

 

1784       MR. HIEBERT:  Literally, yes.

 

1785       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Thank you.  Counsel, would you like us to take a few minutes and then would you be ready or --

 

1786       LEGAL COUNSEL:  If I might just have one minute before starting.

 

1787       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sure. 

 

1788       MR. HIEBERT:  Mr. Kern would like to make a comment on Canadian Talent Development, if that's all right.

 

1789       MR. KERN:  Thank you for letting me interrupt.  I just wanted to clarify, I guess, some of the thoughts that we were entertaining when we wrote the application a while back.  One of the issues, I guess that this format is experiencing is the lack of a music industry to support it.  Some of the other categories of music have had a long-time Canadian music industry.  The Christian music industry is generally new, not only to Canada but to the United States as well, and so for us to find sufficient quantity of Canadian Christian Category 34 music is a little bit of a challenge at this point in time.

 

1790       So in begging I guess mercy from the Commission, we had decided to apply for the lowest probable Canadian content amount in hopes that we could easily surpass that but with the intent that we wouldn't get caught under-delivering to our promise.  So it is the intent of the organization as a radio station to assist in the pioneering of the Canadian contemporary Christian music industry with the desire to eventually develop a top 40 chart or other shows and mechanisms that would support the industry.  So I'm hoping that that would be acceptable to the Commission as a reason for the lower request for Canadian content.

 

1791       THE CHAIRPERSON:  You're talking about Category 3?

 

1792       MR. COLLINS:  I'm sorry?

 

1793       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are you talking Category 3 -- jazz?

 

1794       MR. COLLINS:  No, I'm sorry.

 

1795       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Category 2 is your -- Lord, I never thought I would know these categories so well.

 

1796       MR. COLLINS:  Category 34, the --

 

1797       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Category 3 is your jazz and jazz type --

 

1798       MR. COLLINS:  Yes, Category 34 is the classic non-religious.

 

1799       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, right.  So I have just asked and Mr. Collins has just answered, on behalf of HIS, saying he would commit to 15 percent Cancon.

 

1800       MR. COLLINS:  Yes, that's correct.

 

1801       THE CHAIRPERSON:  By way of a COL?

 

1802       MR. COLLINS:  Yes.  But I just wanted to explain the reasoning for the original question which is why did we try to backdate that, and it wasn't for a selfish reason at all.

 

1803       THE CHAIRPERSON:  I hear you.  Counsel?

 

1804       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Just to pick up, I guess, on one of the last questions that Commissioner Cram asked, when you talk about special events broadcasting, you're talking about broadcasting under the special events exemption order?

 

1805       MR. HIEBERT:  Yes.

 

1806       LEGAL COUNSEL:  And I take it you're confident that you've been in compliance with the special events exemption order?

 

1807       MR. HIEBERT:  To the best of our ability, yes.

 

1808       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Each one of the things that you've been broadcasting has been, I take it, from your perspective related to a special event?

 

1809       MR. HIEBERT:  That's correct.

 

1810       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Have you been doing other things at the same time, for example, streaming on the Internet?

 

1811       MR. HIEBERT:  That's correct.

 

1812       LEGAL COUNSEL:  So since July of 2001 you've been more or less broadcasting on a full-time basis and streaming on the Internet; is that correct?

 

1813       MR. HIEBERT:  The streaming on the Internet started just a little while ago.  I think it was in November. 

 

1814       LEGAL COUNSEL:  And you've been doing this on -- the special events broadcasting, you've been doing it on the 107.1 MHz frequency?

 

1815       MR. HIEBERT:  That's correct.

 

1816       LEGAL COUNSEL:  And you've got, of course, Industry Canada's approval to use that frequency for the special events broadcasting?

 

1817       MR. HIEBERT:  That's correct.  Continuously, yes.

 

1818       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Thank you.  In discussing matters with Commissioner Williams, a series of questions was asked about news programming.  Would you agree that your target audience, young people, tend to listen a lot to the radio during the late afternoon periods and also on weekend periods?

 

1819       MR. HIEBERT:  Yes, they do.  If I could just add, the highest AQHs for 12-17 is nine o'clock in the evening on weekdays.

 

1820       LEGAL COUNSEL:  So dealing with information programming, my sense of it is that there's not much information programming being directed to young people during these periods of peak listening, and I'm wondering why not?

 

1821       MR. COLLINS:  Well, as I mentioned earlier we attempted the types of information programming that would not only inform but get our demographic talking and questioning and what not, and unfortunately at our first attempt with that, there was an obvious show of non-interest.  It has been our experience that while we want to give our audience what they want to hear, and what they'd rather hear than, say, a newscast at nine in the evening is another song.  I'm not disagreeing that informational programming wouldn't be more substantial and better, but right now in an attempt to program a station that's giving that audience what they want to hear, what they want to hear is another song.

 

1822       MR. HIEBERT:  I think I might also add to that too is that with this demographic, I think what we may be learning or the lesson that may be learned from this is that when they get information, they want to get it in short bites, quickly.  So doing something any more than 30 seconds or a minute is probably the maximum of their attention span; then they want to get on to music.

 

1823       I think we do that in a ‑‑ call it a culturally relevant way with the DJ banter, the jock banter.

 

1824       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Well, for example, is there jock banter or DJ banter let's say in the afternoons and the evenings?

 

1825       MR. COLLINS:  Yeah, absolutely.  There's as much banter as any traditional youth-oriented radio station.  In addition I should mention we have on the weekend a countdown show which is filled with artist foreground as well as mini featurettes from retro tracks to indy tracks which promote unsigned artists in an effort ‑‑  On an individual basis as on-air personalities, one of our jobs ‑‑ and I count myself included as one of the on-air people ‑‑ one of our jobs is to make sure that we are getting out the relevant information which means surfing the Net, getting the relevant information. 

 

1826       Now, what's relevant to a 15-year-old male may not be the latest goings-on with, say, the Minister of Defence but rather the fact that U2 is going to be playing at the Super Bowl.  That's the kind of information that we highlight in contrast to what may be considered traditional informational packages.

 

1827       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Would you be thinking you'd be increasing the amount of information during the afternoons and evenings, during the course of the licence?

 

1828       MR. COLLINS:  I'd certainly like to.  It's a personal desire that one of the benefits of securing a licence is the very fact that it would allow us through different means the freedom to put more people on the air.  I do essentially three different jobs, and one of the things I feel is suffering from my own show is the lack of informational vignettes or entertainment vignettes because I've been sidetracked with programming and music scheduling duties. 

 

1829       But I would love to see and intend to encourage my other on-air staff to certainly not only get other means of informational programming on, whether it's just a Hollywood moment or whatever, but we have the technology to use to get callers on the air.

 

1830       I mean, ideally I'd rather have 30 seconds of somebody phoning in and talking about some concert they saw rather than 30 seconds of BN news.

 

1831       LEGAL COUNSEL:  I take it basically it's not in your projections right now; it's something you would like to do in the future?

 

1832       MR COLLINS:  It wasn't in my intended projections for the immediate future but certainly that's something I would like to see as the program director in the ongoing effort.

 

1833       LEGAL COUNSEL:  One of the questions Commissioner Williams asked, I think, was about donations from churches, and I think I heard you suggest that in terms of your projections, you've lost momentum and that you've done other things and you've replaced the revenue from churches from other sources, and I wondered if you could elaborate on what those other sources are?

 

1834       MR. HIEBERT:  Generally it's been capitalizing on our position as ‑‑ call it being in tune with that demographic and with that age group and doing things that would be not particularly radio-oriented, things like producing shows.  For example, in my presentation I used the example of Snow Jam 2002 coming up at The Forks, done in conjunction with The Forks.  They chose us to do that because they understood and felt that we understood what that demographic wanted in terms of music, what it wanted in terms of entertainment, so the Snow Jam will do things like a Battle of the Bands.  There may be a professional snowboarder coming in on the snowboard park doing tricks or whatever.  So that was an example, and that's -- I'll call it a paid consulting kind of job where we're actually doing the work for that. 

 

1835       So we also were involved earlier by getting involved in bringing in a very successful concert at the arena with a band called P.O.D., which is, you know, right in with our demographic.  Once again, it was because we understood the scene, we understood what was going on, and so we have found, I think, ways of generating some revenues that are maybe a little less traditional than the typical radio station. 

 

1836       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Which I take it you project will continue into the future?

 

1837       MR. HIEBERT:  Yes.

 

1838       LEGAL COUNSEL:  I think Mr. Kern referred to non-classic religious music at one point just a few minutes ago, and just for the record, I believe non-classic religious is sub-category 35, not 34, for the purposes of condition of licence.

 

1839       MR. HIEBERT:  Thank you.

 

1840       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Finally, in terms of the programming you're proposing to do, I take it you're doing now as well, there's automated programming that goes right until 7:00 a.m.  I think it starts in the evenings; is that right?

 

1841       MR. HIEBERT:  At 10:00 p.m.

 

1842       LEGAL COUNSEL:  It starts at 10:00 p.m. and goes right through to 7:00 a.m?

 

1843       MR. HIEBERT:  That's correct.

 

1844       LEGAL COUNSEL:  And the concern that I wanted to just articulate is does that create any problems vis-à-vis meeting Canadian content requirements for music either in sub-category 20 or sub-category 2, let's say, or 3 or any of its sub‑categories?

 

1845       MR. HIEBERT:  Not at all.  With Music Master software scheduling system, it's taken care of on its own.  You literally program the system for the percentage of Cancon required, so Canadian content would not be -- the integrity of our target would not be affected at all, whether we have music flow on from 10:00 to 7:00 or whether we have somebody voice tracking or whatever.

 

1846       LEGAL COUNSEL:  So it's you yourselves who are programming the music stir?

 

1847       MR. HIEBERT:  Absolutely.  Everything is locally programmed.

 

1848       LEGAL COUNSEL:  I see.  It's taken care of into the way you program the system.  Thank you.  Thank you, Madam Chair. 

 

1849       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Hiebert, Mr. Collins, Mr. Kern and panel.  I'm very sorry, I thought I would never remember my first name.  We'll take a break now for 15 minutes and then we'll commence with Red River.

 

--- Upon recessing at 1455 / Suspension à 1455

 

--- Upon resuming at 1519 / Reprise à 1519

 

1850       THE CHAIRPERSON:  We'll come back to order, Mr. Secretary.

 

1851       THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  The next application and the final radio item at this hearing is an application by Red River College Radio on behalf of the not-for-profit organization to be incorporated for a licence to operate an English language instructional campus FM radio station in Winnipeg.  The new station would operate on frequency 92.9 MHz with an effective radiated power of 201 watts.  Please begin when you're ready.

 

           APPLICATION / APPLICATION

 

1852       MR. McGREGOR:  Good afternoon, Madam Chair.  I'm Robert McGregor. I'm chair of the Creative Arts Department at Red River College and I'm president of the board of Red River College Radio.  It is my pleasure to appear before you today to present our application for a campus instructional radio station.

 

1853       Before we begin our presentation, I'd like to introduce the members of our panel.  With me today, to my right, is Cheryl Miki, a student in our Creative Communications Program and a director of the board of Red River College Radio.  To my left is Julia Brown, program research and development at the college.  Behind me and to my right is Ken Babb, professional engineer and president of EB Systems, our consulting engineer on this application, and finally, behind me, to my left, is John Hylton, Queen's Counsel of the legal firm Borden, Ladner & Gervais, our legal counsel for this application.  Our radio instructor, Gary Moir, is in the audience along with some of his broadcasting students, who have an assignment to complete based on today's hearings as well.

 

1854       Red River College has a long-standing reputation for excellence in applied education.  From manufacturing to business, to health care to creative arts, the college has always focused on ensuring students have the opportunity to learn through both theory, education and extensive practical application of the skills they will use in the work force. 

 

1855       The Creative Communications program is one of the college's most popular and successful programs.  Nearly 400 students apply annually to fill the 50 seats in our classrooms and graduate employment rates average around 90 percent. 

 

1856       The Creative Communications program began training in the field of communications professionals back in 1969.  Today, a significant number of Winnipeg's journalism, public relations, broadcasting and advertising professionals are graduates of our program.  We'd like to submit a small sample of radio programming that was created by our students to give you just a glimpse of the work being done in our program at the present time.

 

1857       (AUDIO PRESENTATION)

 

1858       MS. MIKI:  My name is Cheryl Miki and I'm a second-year journalism major in the Creative Communications program at Red River College and a member of the board of directors of Red River College Radio.

 

1859       When I decided to go back to school as a mature student it was imperative that I find a field of study that would offer me the greatest variety of career opportunities.  I wanted a program that would teach me a diverse set of skills with hands-on learning experiences so that upon graduation, I would be able to walk confidently into the career of my choice.  I found this program at Red River College. 

 

1860       Creative Communications offers the only radio and television and broadcasting training in the Winnipeg area.  Combined with the journalism, advertising and public relation studies in the Creative Communications program, graduates of this program go on to careers in print, television and radio broadcasting.  Even though broadcasting has, until now, never been offered as a major, former students can be found in almost, if not every, broadcasting organization in the province. 

 

1861       Take for example CBC Radio One, where approximately one-quarter of the staff are graduates of the Creative Communications program.  I've been working on CBC Radio's morning show for the last five months and I owe my position to the writing and technical skills that I have learned at Red River College.  I would never have been granted this position without the direct hands-on experience that I gained while working on the college's weekly news program, "The Voice of Red River," which is broadcast on the University of Winnipeg's campus radio station, CKUW.

 

1862       Broadcasters must be able to write to very tight deadlines and be able to read copy that is timed to the very second, and the only way that students can learn these skills is to practise in a live radio station.  The proposed Red River College instructional radio station would provide this environment.

 

1863       MR. McGREGOR:  Thanks, Cheryl.  Creative Communications is an intensive two-year program with a unique structure.  Students study journalism, public relations, advertising and radio and television broadcasting.

 

1864       When I first assumed the position of chair of the Creative Arts Department in 2000, I quickly recognized that the radio and television courses currently being offered in Creative Communications were not quite meeting the needs of the students or of the Winnipeg broadcasting community.  There were a number of reasons for this.  Many individuals were leaving the province to obtain broadcasting training as there were limited local options.  Industry was dissatisfied with the technical abilities of graduates from Creative Communications.  The traditional training ground of late night and weekend announcing jobs had all but disappeared due to automation.  And the advances in technology were necessitating a greater level of technical savvy than could be offered at the college.

 

1865       I began a campaign to expand the broadcasting curriculum and elevate it to a major, on par with the program's other three disciplines.  This new broadcast production major was approved by the Council on Post-Secondary Education last December.

 

1866       So I'm pleased to announce that beginning in the fall of 2002, the Radio and Television Broadcast Production major will offer a comprehensive broadcast training, continuing and expanding upon the tradition of excellence in the Creative Communications program.

 

1867       The new radio station will be an integral part of the broadcasting major.  It will provide students with a real-life broadcasting experience, including the very real pressures of airtime deadlines.  It will graduate individuals with the hands-on skills industry needs and values, eliminating the need for them to look outside of Winnipeg.  It will also slow the talent drain to other markets as many of those who leave to study broadcasting elsewhere never return. 

 

1868       Another very important function of this new radio station will be to provide a public voice for Red River College, both for the students of the college and the broader community. 

 

1869       Public colleges were created to provide an alternative to the theoretical education offered at Canada's universities.  Colleges specialize in applied learning, preparing students for the jobs, careers and employment opportunities that support local and global economic development. 

 

1870       The practical hands-on education offered by colleges has direct relevance to the skills required in the workplace.  As the job market has progressively become more challenging, greater numbers of students are turning to applied education for its employment potential.  College graduates are able to become productive employees very quickly, much more so than university graduates who have a greater breadth and depth of education but little practical experience.

 

1871       The radio station will be a wonderful vehicle for providing this type of employment-focused applied education.  Red River College Radio will provide a major benefit to the Winnipeg radio industry by ensuring a future supply of trained, competent broadcasters.  In fact, the quality and number of applicants appearing before you today makes evident the demand for our graduates.

 

1872       MS. MIKI:  Red River College intends to operate 24 hours a day, 12 months of the year.  Our programming will be produced by Creative Communications students as required by their program of study.  As a training ground for broadcasting students, the station will feature programming representative of all types of commercial radio broadcast in Winnipeg, as well as unique music and programming based on the individual interests, talents and perspectives of the programs, students and the college community: campus news and events, radio documentaries, community, national and international news reported from a student's perspective, educational programs tailored to the curriculum of our Distance Education Department, and educational programs of interest to all college students.  Music programming will be varied in its content with a special focus on local talent that reflects our diverse community.  Students will also learn to choose playlists, produce commercials and generate advertising revenue.

 

1873       MR. McGREGOR:  Structurally, Red River College Radio will be controlled by a not-for-profit organization associated with Red River College.  Control of the station will be vested in the station's board of directors, subject to the Corporations Act of Manitoba and the Broadcasting Act.

 

1874       The board is composed of college administration, faculty and students, as well as members of the Winnipeg community.  Additionally, the advisory committee for the Creative Communications program is expected to provide direction to the program and, by extension, to the radio station.  Advisory committees are a vital link between the college and the employers of our graduates.  Each college program is supported by an active program advisory committee that provides ongoing feedback from employers, students and specialists in the field.

 

1875       Due to the close relationship between the radio station's mandate to provide a training ground for students and the Creative Communications program itself, the cost of running the radio station should be relatively low.  For example, a paid station manager will not be required as the program's instructor will fill that function.  Because of our low operating cost and the specialty market we will be appealing to, it's expected that we'll have little or no impact on local commercial broadcasters.  We have projected to sell 10 minutes of advertising per day in the first year and only 22 minutes per day by its seventh year of operation.  Even at those very conservative low levels, the station expects to break even by its third year of operation.

 

1876       If for any reason there is a shortfall in expected revenue, the Creative Communications program has sufficient funds on board and has committed to make up any deficit.  With the approval in December of the broadcasting major, our start-up costs, included in the program proposal, are also ensured.  Attached for your reference is the college letter guaranteeing funds for the radio station itself.

 

1877       Radio has traditionally been a male-dominated industry.  However, the Creative Communications program typically attracts more women than men.  The average enrolment over the past five years has been approximately 52 percent women.  Thus, this new program and radio station will provide qualified women broadcasters for Manitoba's radio industry.

 

1878       Aboriginal people are a significant and rapidly growing part of the Manitoba population, yet they have historically been under-represented in post-secondary education.  Red River College, where Aboriginal students comprise 10 percent of the full-time student population, has been quite successful at helping Aboriginal students to achieve their academic goals.  Moving beyond preparatory programs, the college has developed a number of career and technical programs to address specifically, the needs of Aboriginal learners.  Examples of this are the Aboriginal Self-Government and Aboriginal Interpreter programs.

 

1879       Creative Communications is a smaller program by contrast, and interest in application by members of the Aboriginal community does tend to fluctuate from year to year, from approximately two to 10 percent.

 

1880       If I may direct your attention to the screen, we'd like to show you a short virtual tour of our new downtown campus, which is currently being built not far from here in the city's historic Exchange District.

 

1881       (VIDEO PRESENTATION)

 

1882       The college is very excited about this new initiative.  Training and media design and information technologies will integrate into one facility.  This convergence of art and science at the new campus, combined with a focus on applied research, will open up exciting avenues for the development of new technologies.

 

1883       The Princess Street campus will become the new home of the Creative Arts Department this fall.  315 William Avenue will house the radio and television studios as well as a model newsroom and a model advertising agency.  These facilities are custom designed to function as closely as possible to real facilities.  In these spaces advertising students will sell radio advertising, journalism students will write news stories, radio broadcasting students will produce programming, and so on and so forth.

 

1884       Our current application for the 92.9 frequency at a maximum power of 250 watts is based on a transmitter located at our Notre Dame campus.  If we are successful in this application and the Commission grants us a licence to broadcast, our intention is to move the transmitter to a downtown site as soon as possible after securing a location and apply to raise our power to one kilowatt.

 

1885       As you can see from the map over the tripod our current location and power do not allow us to completely cover the city.  It's very important for us to reach the entire city in order to bring Red River College Radio to all of the student body, staff and potential students in their homes, and indeed, to reach the community at large, including broadcast industry professionals who will be hiring our graduates.

 

1886       We are very happy to have obtained technical approval on February 4th from Industry Canada to broadcast at a maximum of one kilowatt so long as we do not exceed a maximum of 850 watts towards Portage la Prairie -- correction, 750 watts towards Portage la Prairie in order to protect CRFY-1-FM.

 

1887       MS. MIKI:  Of course, this new radio station will be all about the development of new radio broadcasting talent, but our wider mandate is to promote the artistic and musical talent native to our college community.  Students will be encouraged according to their own interests to showcase literary, visual, musical and other talents, both through music and spoken word programming.  This will make a great contribution to fostering a community of creative excellence at the new campus.  Additionally, the Foley studio being built at the new campus has the capacity to master CD albums, providing for further opportunity to promote and assist local talent.

 

1888       MR. McGREGOR:  Thanks, Cheryl.  We believe our proposed new radio station will be of great value to the college and Winnipeg communities for the following reasons.

 

1889       Our mandate to provide a unique mix of programming will add diversity to the local radio market.

 

1890       We will provide a public voice of Red River College to students, potential students, college staff and the Winnipeg community. 

 

1891       We will increase the training options available to Red River College instructors and programs by providing educational programming over the radio.

 

1892       We will provide a link between the new downtown campus and the main campus, giving students the ability to hear news from each campus and thus retain an interest in and traffic between the two facilities.

 

1893       As a specialized service, our primary listening audience will be relatively niche, and we expect to have a minimal effect on existing local commercial broadcasters.

 

1894       With the very low level of advertising we are proposing, we also expect to have no impact on the revenue streams of local commercial stations.

 

1895       Our radio station will provide the broadcasting industry with a made-in-Manitoba source of trained and talented individuals, which is currently not available locally.

 

1896       And it will assist in lessening the drain of talented individuals to other markets for training and employment.

 

1897       Educational radio is an essential component of a healthy broadcasting community.  Reinforced by the tradition of educational excellence in the Creative Communications Program and supported by the collaborative and high-technology environment of the new downtown campus, this radio enterprise will play a vital role in nurturing the future of the radio industry in Winnipeg.  We believe Red River College Radio will provide a long overdue service to our city.

 

1898       I'd like to thank you for your attention this afternoon and I'd also like to take this opportunity to extend our gratitude to all of the people who very generously contributed their time and talent in assisting us with this application.

 

1899       Madam Chair, we welcome your questions.

 

1900       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Commissioner Cardozo.

 

1901       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  No, no, no, we don't clap at hearings.  First lesson about broadcasting and having a station.

 

1902       Thank you, Mr. McGregor and Ms. Miki.  And I'll just tell you, for those who were about to clap, the reason is you don't want to be attempting to influence the panel by shows of public support whereas others may not be doing that.  We're human, and sometimes we can be influenced by subtle factors.

 

1903       What I'm going to do is cover a few areas, primarily programming, talent development and some technical issues.

 

1904       MR. McGREGOR:  Sure.

 

1905       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  As you're aware, the purpose of a hearing is really to address the issues where we need more information.  Through your application and indeed your presentation today, you provided us with a lot of the information, so there's just certain areas we want to get some more information on.

 

1906       Let me start with talking about programming.  You have agreed to accept as a condition of licence that you would devote during each broadcast week at least two hours of your programming to formal educational programming.  Can you give us a bit more information of what the nature of that would be and who would be providing that?  Is that the college?  Is that your department?

 

1907       MR. McGREGOR:  We expect that for the most part that will come from our Distance Education Department within the college.

 

1908       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.

 

1909       MR. McGREGOR:  So faculty members, for the most part on that.

 

1910       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  So the Creative Arts Department -- that's the name of your department --

 

1911       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

1912       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  -- won't be doing instructional, educational broadcasting?

 

1913       MR. McGREGOR:  We certainly could.  That certainly could be part of it.

 

1914       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I'm not asking you to do something -- I just want to know what your --

 

1915       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

1916       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  -- what you have planned?

 

1917       MR. McGREGOR:  Our department -- our role in that that would be to produce it.

 

1918       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  And it could be of any topic?

 

1919       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

1920       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  It wouldn't be related to broadcasting necessarily, but Distance Education?

 

1921       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

1922       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  What's the role of the Centre for Media and Digital Entertainment?

 

1923       MR. McGREGOR:  That's the name of the new downtown facility at ‑‑

 

1924       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  That's the facility itself?

 

1925       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

1926       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  The building?

 

1927       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

1928       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  The people in there are just your department?

 

1929       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

1930       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  With regards to the board, you are currently the president of the board and you're a member of the faculty.  What's the breakdown of the faculty/staff on the board?

 

1931       MR. McGREGOR:  We have --

 

1932       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Oh, sorry, students and staff?

 

1933       MR. McGREGOR:  Oh, okay.  We have three students and two faculty individuals.  We have two members of the community at large, and I think that's it.

 

1934       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  Is it a requirement that the president be a faculty member, or is that just how it happens to be right now?

 

1935       MR. McGREGOR:  It's the way it happens to be at this point.  I think we needed to have some kind of a model to present and so that's what we put forward at this point, but certainly --

 

1936       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Someone who's making good bucks and can put a lot of time into preparation for the --

 

1937       MR. McGREGOR:  Oh.

 

1938       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  -- to the preparation of the application?

 

1939       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes, somebody with familiarity in broadcasting.  Both myself and Gary Moir have been in the industry for a long time, so it just sort of falls to us to put the pieces into place in the beginning.

 

1940       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  One of the things that is required of campus radio is that -- apart from the instructional -- and certainly for instructional campus radio, apart from the instructional component, is that with the Canadian music, that it be Canadian music generally not heard on commercial stations, including special interest music, alternate music, et cetera.  How do you plan to get that range of music that isn't played elsewhere?

 

1941       MR. McGREGOR:  There are a number of students that are in my department right now, and not necessarily just in Creative Communications.  I have Graphic Design students and Library and Information and Technology students as well.  Some of those students are either playing in bands or they have musical interests, and I see a great deal of that material coming from within the college itself.

 

1942       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Ms. Miki?

 

1943       MS. MIKI:  If I may interject as well, another area that we have been looking at is developing an annual talent search and an annual talent contest.  And it would be open to certainly college students but also to the Winnipeg community.  We would showcase local groups, give them airtime.  We haven't set down exactly the parameters of this, but it could take on a number of things.  We could have a live broadcast feed at a concert to determine the winners.  That would then promote the local groups in the city and in the community as well. 

 

1944       We will be developing a new Foley studio in the new campus, and that studio will have the capability of producing CDs.  Because a lot of these groups that are just forming, they don't have the means to make a demo tape or to get on air, and so we would have that ability to produce that for them, as well as we could do live shows then through the Foley studio and broadcast live concerts through the campus that way.

 

1945       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Do you have any sense of what proportion of the music you'd be playing would be local Winnipeg or Manitoba-produced music, or artists from here?

 

1946       MR. McGREGOR:  When we're airing music, somewhere in the area of 20 percent, 15 to 20 percent would be strictly Manitoba based.

 

1947       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  In terms of getting access to Canadian music, especially music that's not being played extensively or much on commercial radio, have you looked at FACTOR or Musique Action, the funding agencies based in Toronto and Montreal that produce a fair amount of music for new artists?

 

1948       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

1949       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So you have looked at FACTOR as a source?  Have you been in touch with them?

 

1950       MR. McGREGOR:  Actually they were in touch with me last week and in getting this application together I haven't been able to call them back.

 

1951       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  Well, I just mention that as a source where they produce a lot of CDs, and one of the things we've found is that their distribution necessarily isn't the greatest, and they ought to be looking at campus and community radio stations because it's often the new artists who would get to air on these stations perhaps easier than commercial.  Do you have any plans to have French vocal music, or do you see primarily English?

 

1952       MR. McGREGOR:  Our campus has what we call a diversity week where we showcase the cultural variety of the student population.  I expect the programming on the station will reflect that as well, and so there will likely be a lot of non-traditional broadcasting going on where you've got cultural interests being reflecting in the programming that goes on in the station as well.

 

1953       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So there could be a diversity of cultures --

 

1954       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

1955       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  -- and genres of music?

 

1956       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

1957       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  You've talked about the Aboriginal students at the college.  Do you sense that there would be a focus on music produced by Aboriginal artists too, that may or may not be, quote unquote, Aboriginal music, but a variety of genres?

 

1958       MR. McGREGOR:  I would expect that to be the case, but of course you can't mandate other people's interest in their music, but I would certainly expect that that's what they would be interested in putting on.

 

1959       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  How do you plan to train students and volunteers who will operate the station, because as I understand it, you're going to have pretty well a completely volunteer staff?

 

1960       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

1961       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  You've mentioned courses that students would be in.  So they would -- as I'm understanding what you're saying, part of that course work would be working in the radio station?

 

1962       MR. McGREGOR:  Providing the content, yes.

 

1963       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.

 

1964       MR. McGREGOR:  The automation software that is out there right now allows us to have students work basically between 8:00 and 5:00 or 8:00 and 6:00 to lay down voice tracks and to do a lot of the things that will allow them to broadcast 24 hours a day even though they may not necessarily be there at 2:00 in the morning.

 

1965       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Do you see yourself recruiting volunteers beyond the students that come to you as part of their course work?

 

1966       MR. McGREGOR:  I wouldn't want to put barriers up within the college.  So if there were students from other parts of the college that would be interested in producing content, they would work with our Creative Communications students to get that on to the airwaves.  The students within the program would still be in charge of the production of that, but we certainly would open it up to others within the college for programming ideas and content.

 

1967       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So your sense is that the students who enrolled in the relevant courses would provide enough volunteer work force for you?

 

1968       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

1969       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.

 

1970       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.  Over the two years of our Creative Communications program, with the expansion this fall, there will be 150 students in the Creative Communications program alone.

 

1971       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Well, it's interesting to see a program expand and also to have money to cover deficits.  I take it you're not going to let the Ministry of Education know that you might have money to cover somebody's deficit.

 

1972       MR. McGREGOR:  Well, the reality is that in order for these students to get a handle on what it's like to perform in a live environment, at the very least we've got to be live inside the campus, and to do that it's going to cost us X number of dollars, and that's what we've built into this proposal.  So what we went to COPS with and what we got approval for funding on was the bare cost to operate our campus radio station.  Now, any money that we can get back in terms of advertising revenue just offsets those costs, which is a plus, actually, for the government.

 

1973       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Yes, I asked that because in various parts of the country education is on a very, very lean budget --

 

1974       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

1975       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  -- and in some cases getting leaner, so the ability to support a new program is generally quite difficult.

 

1976       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.  This is part of the provincial government's mandate to expand college enrolment in Manitoba.  They would like to see college enrolment doubled and so they've earmarked, I believe it's five million dollars for that purpose.

 

1977       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  I want to ask about the community in general beyond the college.  You said that on the board there'd be two members of the community at large.  Is there a role for the community outside the college to be involved in the station to either have access to time and programs?

 

1978       MR. McGREGOR:  Sure, I wouldn't see a reason why we wouldn't want to do that.

 

1979       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  It's not in your planning at this point?

 

1980       MR. McGREGOR:  It wasn't in our initial plan, but again, as long as it serves a direct link to the curriculum that we have and works with the students that we have in the program, I wouldn't be opposed to outside people being involved.

 

1981       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  How will you operate during -- call it downtimes when, either during the summer or during exam times, or Christmas time when ‑‑ students' availability is seasonal, in a sense.  So when you're not in full session, how will you operate the station?

 

1982       MR. McGREGOR:  There's a couple of different ways that we can do that.  One is we certainly always have a number of students who are just interested in doing that sort of thing, so that could fill in a few shifts.  As well, we'd like to be able to have some automation and voice tracking going on where a student who's employed during the daytime could come in at five or six o'clock, lay down some voice tracks for the following day's broadcast, and again, we can run without anyone actually in the studio. 

 

1983       One of the other things that we definitely want to do is tape some of the shows that we're doing so that they could be rebroadcast, so that during the summer months there's an opportunity to stay connected with the college and some of the programming that goes on within the station during the fall months.

 

1984       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So there would be a certain amount of automated programming happening?

 

1985       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

1986       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Can you give us a sense of, over the course of the year, what percentage of that would be automated and what percentage would be live students in the studio?

 

1987       MR. McGREGOR:  Our goal would be to minimize that number.  In the beginning, because it's new and because we're trying to feel our way through this and develop the curriculum as we run through it, I would expect that we might be sitting around 40 percent automation.  But that number could quickly diminish to near zero.

 

1988       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Well, it would be hard to do zero, wouldn't it, because you'll have certain downtimes when students aren't available?

 

1989       MR. McGREGOR:  My gut -- and I've only been there for two years, but my gut feeling is that of the 150 students, there will certainly be 15 or 20 who have enough interest in the program that they'll want to come in a do a shift even if it means working until midnight.

 

1990       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  How much is happening during the summer at the college?

 

1991       MR. McGREGOR:  Just to back up for half a second, when I speak of automation, we're talking about semi-automation where there's still a live body that goes in and lays down voice tracks and creates the programming that then runs at a later time.  So if we're talking about that kind of automation, that may still be up around the 20, 25 percent mark.  But it's not like we'll be running canned shows all the time.

 

1992       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  During the summer months, what percentage of the college is up and running?

 

1993       MR. McGREGOR:  About 20 percent of the college has some summer programming going on.  Our department has not in the past.  Part of that is because of the heavy workloads that we subject the students to during the fall and winter months.  We are switching to a semester program likely as soon as this fall.  We're trimestered right now, which means that we run about nine months.  It only gives us about two and a half to three months during a summer, which isn't really enough for an intersession.  With the new semester program we'd have an opportunity to run a full semester in the summertime, and that would give us an opportunity in our department to do some things in the summer that would keep students over the summer months.

 

1994       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Hmm.  Can I ask you about control mechanisms dealing with what you air, and primarily about things that are said that may be offensive from time to time.  How do you plan to control open-line programming or other programming where things may be said that you, as the station -- the Board, as the station owners, would have to have a responsibility and a good control over?

 

1995       MR. McGREGOR:  We intend to have a radio station that operates just as a commercial production would be.  So there would be a delay system, and that would likely be a seven-second delay, just as you would find in any of the other open-line talk show studios.  As well, we expect to maintain the standards of the Canadian Broadcast Association and the Broadcast Standards Act.  We, as part of the mandate of our program, have always expected fairly high standards for our students in anything that they do.  These are not students that are taking welding during the daytime and come in to spin records at night.  These are students who have committed to this as a career and have come into the program --

 

1996       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  No, no.  No comments about engineering students.

 

1997       MR. McGREGOR:  No.  I don't even want to go there.

 

1998       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I'm not sure what your engineer will think about that.  Well, it's nevertheless a serious issue.  Have you considered ‑‑ on average, say in a month, how many students would you have -- how many people would you have who are on air, who are hosts of programs and who work at the station at any given time?  Well, let's say what, 30, 40?

 

1999       MR. McGREGOR:  I'm going to say probably between 20 and 25 would be more realistic.

 

2000       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.

 

2001       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

2002       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  How do they become aware of the standards that they have to uphold when they have access to the public airwaves?  That's the issue.  If you have a licence, you have access to the public airwaves, and what the Commission requires of you is that you treat those airwaves responsibly.

 

2003       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

2004       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So how would you ensure that those 20 or 25 people are aware of what their responsibilities are?

 

2005       MR. McGREGOR:  Term one, year one of the program, would include curriculum which runs through all of that and lays out everything from CRTC, its role and function, through standards, ethics, broadcast standards, the whole -- the whole shebang, because that's what they're going to need when they get out in the real world.

 

2006       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  That's not quite the answer I'm looking for, but you're getting closer to it.  Let's suppose you've got year-one students and they deal with this issue in, say, the fourth week.

 

2007       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

2008       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  They've been on the air for three or four weeks without being aware of this, and you know, they want to do good radio, so someone does cutting edge radio, and it goes over that edge.  You are responsible for it, and it's not enough for you to say, "Well, they're going to get to that part of the course in two weeks."

 

2009       MR. McGREGOR:  I think it was a wine commercial on TV where they said, "No wine will be served before its time."  No student will be allowed on air before they've gone through that whole first segment.  So essentially, for the three remaining semester terms those students would be on air.  The first term of the first year they would not be.  They would not be on air until they understand their role and where they can and can't go when they're on air.

 

2010       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  How about logger tapes?  How would you maintain logger tapes?

 

2011       MR. McGREGOR:  As we're required to by CRTC regulations.  We probably will do both hard drive copy of everything that goes on air and maintain a tape copy as well, because, again, in some of the stations that these students will be going to they won't see the more sophisticated technologies, so we have to expose them to both.

 

2012       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  Have you been in touch with the National Capitol Radio Association -- or National Campus Radio Association, an association of campus radios from across the country?

 

2013       MS. BROWN:  I suppose only indirectly.  Rob Schmidt, the station manager at CKUW, was quite helpful in the early stages of this proposal, and he -- now, I don't remember exactly.  He's either on the board or a past board member of the organization.  So we haven't directly contacted them but we're aware of them.

 

2014       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Well, just as an observation, I would suggest you'd need to have some more advice on some of these very specific issues simply because you're dealing with, as I said, the public airwaves.  The purpose of the logger tapes are, if anything is said that is inappropriate and there is a complaint, you ought to be able to -- you have to keep them for four weeks and you have to be able to have that tape.  And we've had problems with stations in the past, and unfortunately it tends to be, at this point -- you know, we've worked on it quite extensively, so it tends to be volunteer-led stations where you have a lot of volunteers working there who may not be fully aware occasionally of their responsibilities in things like balance, control mechanisms, logger tapes and so forth.

 

2015       I just want to go back to the issue of cultural diversity, and you might have looked at this in detail, but section 15 of our Campus Radio Policy, let me just read it to you and get from you some ideas about what you will be doing in this regard.  We talk about the Act stating the need to reflect the multicultural, multiracial and Aboriginal reality of the country, and the section, which is 3(1) -- actually it's not -- it's based on 3(1)(d)(iii) of the Act, and then in the policy, section 15, we say:

 

2016       The role of campus stations is to provide community access to the airwaves and to offer alternative programming that reflects the diverse elements of the communities they are licensed to serve. The cultural diversity present in many Canadian communities places campus stations serving those centres in a position to make a strong contribution to the reflection of that cultural diversity, especially by providing exposure to new and developing artists from minority cultural groups. This is also consistent with the responsibility of campus stations to play music not often played by commercial stations. Campus stations are also well placed to provide spoken word programming that reflects the perspectives and concerns of minority cultural groups. The Commission expects campus stations to maintain and strengthen their efforts in these areas, both in their programming and in their employment practices. How do you see yourself doing that?

 

2017       MR. McGREGOR:  Within the program itself we have a fairly diverse cultural assortment of students and population base.  We expect that those students will bring with them a number of interests in that regard.  We will, as Cheryl mentioned, encourage participation from students, and it may be for talent development; it may be for part of this diversity week that I spoke of that we have at the college, where we're actually focusing in on the various different kinds.  It's like a mini Folklorama which we're --

 

2018       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  But with the radio, you wouldn't just be doing diversity for one week, I assume?

 

2019       MR. McGREGOR:  No.  No, it would be at least between September and April, at least.

 

2020       MS. MIKI:  We also have -- like, in our weekly schedule, we have nine hours of special interest music slotted in.  And for those particular time slots we would make sure to develop programming that would be reflective of our diverse culture.  We also do have a lot of -- for example, on the campus we have a Cree language program, so we would encourage students in that program to come to us with ideas on how could we do some Cree language programming during that time.  Things like that, capitalizing on programs and the students that are already there within the college.  But we would ensure that during that nine hours of programming, that we tailored specific shows to meet those guidelines.

 

2021       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you.  One of the things we've done in some instances on this topic of cultural diversity is, in licensing decisions, have asked the licensee to come back to us within something like three months with a more detailed plan.  If you were to be licensed, would you be prepared to do that?

 

2022       MR. McGREGOR:  Sure.

 

2023       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  Let me ask you about your talent development plan.  You say, and I quote:

 

2024       Students will be encouraged to showcase literary, visual, technical, et cetera, as well as musical talent, depending on and developing their individual interests.

 

2025       Could you give me a sense of what that means and what you mean by visual and technical?

 

2026       MR. McGREGOR:  These are Creative Communication students, and their interests within the program cover a wide variety of topics, visual being newspaper, being television, and to a certain extent radio as it applies to streaming video and company websites.  So the visual aspects of that are fairly all-encompassing.

 

2027       What we're trying to do with these students under this package is trying to encourage them to develop what they want to do, perhaps not directly related to radio but using a radio medium, and we feel that we can do that with this type of a format.

 

2028       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  I've got a few technical questions.  Just from a purely technical point of view, why did you select this frequency, 92.9, and why do you think it's the most appropriate for you for the service you're going to be offering?

 

2029       MR. McGREGOR:  I'll start by putting that over to Julia, who had to field a lot of phone calls in this regard, and then we'll let Ken Babb talk about the technical side of it.

 

2030       MS. BROWN:  As you know, our original application to Industry Canada was for the 90.5 frequency.

 

2031       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Right.

 

2032       MS. BROWN:  When CBC began operations on 89.9 that became unfeasible, and it was Industry Canada's suggestion that we apply for 92.9 as probably a lower-end-of-the-band frequency that would support the kind of signal that we were looking for.  But really, Ken will give you the detail.

 

2033       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Mr. Babb?

 

2034       MR. BABB:  As Julia stated, our initial application requested 90.5 MHz, which is cited as the educational frequency within the FM band.  Unfortunately, for us to use 90.5 MHz we would have to collocate with CBC at Starbuck, which is outside of the city, and would entail expensive construction.  The problem we faced was a conflict with CBC television sound, also a conflict with CKXL.  There was potential interference with those frequencies.  Further consultation with Industry Canada suggested that we move to 92.9 FM after it was vacated by CJAE, and that's the reason why we apply for this frequency.

 

2035       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  In terms of the -- so the tower's located in the city; is that right?

 

2036       MR. BABB:  The initial -- the application calls for a temporary installation at the college with a view of moving downtown to a more central location that would give us more comprehensive coverage of the city.

 

2037       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  Now, as I understand, there are limitations on the power that you can increase with this frequency, so from a long-term perspective, you're aware of that and you don't plan to push the power up to cover the whole city and outlying areas?

 

2038       MR. BABB:  I think that the power we have indicated in the application is no more than one kilowatt radiated power.  As an urban radio with a transmitter within the city, I think from a safety perspective that's probably the upper limit that we can go to.  If we wish to get beyond that power then we'll to locate the transmitter outside of the city.

 

2039       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And it's possible you might even have to change the frequency.  Would you be wiling to do that?

 

2040       MR. BABB:  If we go outside of the city?

 

2041       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Well, if you wanted a higher power station?

 

2042       MR. BABB:  Yes, we understand that there's a limitation.  We understand the limitation placed on 92.9 relative to CFRY in Portage, and relative to the U.S. station in Grand Forks.  So we understand beyond that power we may have to change frequency.

 

2043       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Do you --

 

2044       MR. McGREGOR:  I would just like to add --

 

2045       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Sorry, go ahead.

 

2046       MR. McGREGOR:  -- just one thing to that.  If we are able to go as high as 750 watts on 92.9 from a downtown location, we'd be happy with that and I don't think we'd be seeking for any higher power outage or movement anywhere on the dial at that point.  That would be fine with us.

 

2047       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  How many students do you think live within the contour of what you're looking at?  Because if you're broadcasting outside the school hours of daytime and probably there's the highest number of classes, is it your sense that there are students living within that contour?

 

2048       MR. McGREGOR:  The current contour that we have up on the board here?

 

2049       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Yes.

 

2050       MR. McGREGOR:  About two-thirds of the student population within the college tends to live within that contour.  And it's interesting.  It's one of the reasons why we decided to move down to Princess Street, to be more centrally located, so that we could pull some students from other parts of the city that for whatever reason tend not to come to the college.  But in terms of the Creative Communications students, it might be 50 percent.

 

2051       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Did you look at any other alternate frequencies, FM or AM?

 

2052       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes, we had talked a little bit about a couple of other frequencies, but we had put all our money on the one frequency, which we then were asked to --

 

2053       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Well, my question is more would you be willing to use another frequency if this one wasn't available for any reason?

 

2054       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.  John, you want to answer that?

 

2055       MR. HYLTON:  I think, Commissioner, that the position would be best expressed that if we can have a protected FM frequency which will do the job of covering the greater Winnipeg area that we are seeking here, and if we could get that at about one kilowatt, which would be highly desirable, then another frequency might work about as well.  I'll defer, of course, to the engineer.  Lawyers should never try to answer engineering questions.

 

2056       MR. BABB:  The other frequency we considered was ‑‑ I think it's 107.9, because we understand that former CJAE had some liking for 92.9 and would like to retain his former frequency.  If that's the case we have no objection to switching to the 107.9 that he currently applied for.  That's the only other frequency we looked at.

 

2057       COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  Well, those are my questions.  I want to thank you for your help in providing us the information that we've sought.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

 

2058       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Cardozo.  And of course I have a few questions.  I think it was you, Ms. Miki, were talking about doing a weekly news program on University of Winnipeg's campus station?

 

2059       MS. MIKI:  Yes.

 

2060       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is it anticipated that that would not continue should you get the licence?

 

2061       MS. MIKI:  If we get the licence I don't think that we would have the need to continue that program.  It's half-hour program that is done live on Wednesday mornings and is rebroadcast on Friday mornings.  The purpose of that program is to give the Creative Communication students that opportunity to work in a live studio.

 

2062       We have wonderful ties between the University of Winnipeg and the college.  We have a joint degree program with the university and I'm also involved in that program as well.  And so we have been very lucky to have this opportunity to broadcast college news on that station, but I don't believe that we will need to do that any more because we will be able to then cover more news and have a much longer news program, and program it during time slots, early morning time slots, as well as drive times and noon shows.

 

2063       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. McGregor, would you say that a good number of your students actually volunteer at the University of Manitoba and the University of Winnipeg stations?

 

2064       MR. McGREGOR:  The program is pretty intense for students, so while they may do some volunteer work on those stations, it probably is more appropriate if it's built into the curriculum as we propose this rather than looking for a straight volunteer, when you've got some time, fill in on a couple of shifts.  We've seen that in past with our ‑‑ we have an in-house student association radio station which just broadcasts through the hallways of the main campus, and we've seen students come and go in there as volunteers, but when the going gets tough and the exams are piling up and projects are due, they tend not to show up for their volunteer shift.  So I think if we're building it into the curriculum and we're conscious of those other responsibilities that those students have, I think it's just better that way.

 

2065       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mm-hmm.  I was just worried about the volunteers coming -- if they were already volunteering, what we're doing to those stations --

 

2066       MR. McGREGOR:  Ah.

 

2067       THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- if we were to license --

 

2068       MR. McGREGOR:  I would still, just as a footnote to what Cheryl said, too, I would think that there will still be interaction between Red River College and certainly the University of Winnipeg because of that joint degree that we have.

 

2069       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Winnipeg?  Oh, okay.

 

2070       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.  Because of that joint degree that we have with the University of Winnipeg right now, we do a number of things together jointly.

 

2071       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

 

2072       MR. McGREGOR:  So I would expect that that association would continue with the radio station as well as academics.

 

2073       MS. BROWN:  I also believe CKUW wrote us a letter supporting our application, and it in they stated that while some students are doing some programming there, they feel that an instructional station would be a better forum for that.  So they're obviously not too concerned.

 

2074       THE CHAIRPERSON:  You then, Ms. Miki ‑‑ and I don't know whether the question would be properly put to you ‑‑ you talked in your statement today, about Creative Communications offers the only radio and television broadcasting training in the Winnipeg area.  And we heard this morning about a college called Anokiiwin, A-n-o-k-i-i-w-i-n, College.  Does it offer radio and television broadcasting training?

 

2075       MS. MIKI:  It doesn't offer -- it doesn't offer television broadcasting training at all.

 

2076       THE CHAIRPERSON:  I hear you.  Okay.  Thank you.  I then looked at your financial projections and lots has been said about the money coming from the Premier for the post-secondary education, and I know that that's one of his government's priorities.  But I see in your projections that you're actually planning on making a profit.  What are you going to do with that?

 

2077       MR. McGREGOR:  Well, I'd like to take it home, but I won't be able to.  We'll roll that back into the program.  That allows us to upgrade equipment and get new materials, whether it be CDs, DVDs.  Again, it's a very costly program to run, and these students are constantly raising funds for a variety of things including equipment, trips, taking a trip down to Chicago for the advertising students.  They were actually hoping to go to Toronto this year, the broadcast students.  We just didn't have the money to provide that for them.  So I'd rather that year three happen in year one so that we've got those extra funds to do the things that we really want to do within the program.

 

2078       THE CHAIRPERSON:  So then even if the college bankrolls you, you don't have to pay the money back?  You have an agreement that it actually goes into your own program?

 

2079       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes, it's understood that that's part of the whole project revenue that accumulates because of the work the students do.  And the students benefit from it as well.

 

2080       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  Now, Mr. McGregor, I think you said that you and Mr. Moir both had broadcasting experience.  Can you tell me about your broadcasting experience?

 

2081       MR. McGREGOR:  Mine?

 

2082       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

 

2083       MR. McGREGOR:  Ooh.  Yes.  I began working in professional radio back in 1977 at KY-58 here in Winnipeg.

 

2084       THE CHAIRPERSON:  You were a child prodigy?  I see.

 

2085       MR. McGREGOR:  Oh, yes, I was four at the time.  And then went on from there to CKPR in Thunder Bay, CKCY in Sault Ste. Marie, returned to Winnipeg to Q-94 where I was both on air and music director.  Actually for both, at that time, Q-94 and 13-CFRW, which has long changed hands several -- I mean, it's still CHUM, but its formats have changed a lot.  And then went to KY-58 again for a little while and then moved over to television and spent the last 10 years at CKY-TV.

 

2086       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is Mr. Moir likewise a child prodigy?

 

2087       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.  Actually he's still a child prodigy.

 

2088       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Could you just tell me a little bit about his experience?

 

2089       MR. McGREGOR:  You know, I know that he has spent a long period of time at CBC Radio.  I don't have his resume in front of me, but I do know that his credentials are what make him important to the program itself.  I inherited Gary.  I inherited Gary when I came to the program.

 

2090       THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  My colleague, Commissioner Cardozo, was talking about accountability and how were you going to know that your students -- you know, sort of accountability on air and understanding of the norms.  And is your job, given your experience, even though it's maybe somewhat outdated now ‑‑

 

2091       MR. McGREGOR:  Hey.

 

2092       THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- 1975 -- to teach them --

 

2093       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

2094       THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- those responsibilities, both yours and Mr. Moir, and of course, the others?  But you also, it would appear, as opposed to any community volunteer station, you have a bit of hammer in that you can fail people?

 

2095       MR. McGREGOR:  We can fail them.  We can remove them from the program.  That's a pretty big hammer.  Yes.

 

2096       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your assessment is that the students are fairly highly motivated?

 

2097       MR. McGREGOR:  Very highly motivated, yes.

 

2098       THE CHAIRPERSON:  I know that when I went to law school and I was what was called a senior student or -- I was a child prodigy, but I was called a senior student ‑‑ I knew I cared a heck of a lot more about my schooling than I did when I was 18, you know.

 

2099       MS. MIKI:  If I could just comment on that.

 

2100       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sure.

 

2101       MS. MIKI:  The students in the Creative Communications program do not work a normal school day.  We are expected at all times to be professional in our work.  And we have things like, for example, for journalism majors, we show up in the morning, we have a story meeting, we go off, we write our story, and it's due back by 3:00 p.m.  That's our deadline.  Deadlines are met to the second with a stopwatch and it's an automatic failure if there's any lateness, any misspelled names, anything like that.  The same standards apply to all the disciplines.

 

2102       And we also cover events.  We cover events in the evenings, on weekends.  We also run the school newspaper, and we are also currently in charge of the in-house station, which is CMOR, and we put the programs together there with the help of hosts from the general student body.

 

2103       But we always seem to be working around the clock.  You can always find the Creative Communications students in the college, whether it's 5:00 in the morning or 2:00 in the morning or 1:00 in the afternoon.  It's a little insane, but we are all -- that's why there's such a strict process to get into the program.  They only accept 50 students out of almost 400.  It's a rigorous entry program that we have to go through to get into the program and then they work us like crazy, and we always rise up and we always exceed their expectations.

 

2104       MR. McGREGOR:  Given their scant workload you can see why I've decided to add to what they have to do while they're in the program. 

 

2105       Just to add a little bit, I've found, as a broadcaster ‑‑ I've worked beside Ryerson -- and John's going to kill me on this.  I've worked beside Ryerson grads and Red River College grads, and I find when push comes to shove, when the crunch is on, when the deadline is an hour away and you've got to get something to air, the Red River College graduate is more apt to deliver than the Ryerson graduate.  The Ryerson graduate will be more learned, but not necessarily adept at working with the equipment that they need to work with to get the job done. 

 

2106       So for that reason alone, I decided to move out of the private broadcast sector and come over to the college and be a part of this, because I think it's really important to the industry.  And this is carrying on that vision that I've seen.  Based on experience, and based on value, I really think that this is something that will make these students even that much more integral to the industry.

 

2107       Thank you.  I'm sure your assessment is based on before Mr. Hylton was there.

 

2108       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes, absolutely.

 

2109       MR. HYLTON:  Do I have the right to intervene later?

 

2110       MR. McGREGOR:  On me personally, yes.

 

2111       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Counsel?

 

2112       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Just a couple of short questions.

 

2113       MR. McGREGOR:  Mm-hmm.

 

2114       LEGAL COUNSEL:  It will be a curriculum requirement to work at the station?

 

2115       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

2116       LEGAL COUNSEL:  CMOR, the current --it' a carrier current station right now?  Closed circuit?

 

2117       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

2118       LEGAL COUNSEL:  And it's on the campus ‑‑ the near-the-airport campus?

 

2119       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

2120       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Is it operational now along the lines of the Campus Community Policy?

 

2121       MR. McGREGOR:  You know, we have -- within our program we have absolutely nothing to do with CMOR officially.  It's the Students' Association that runs that.  We have some of our Creative Communication students who volunteer to do shows on that radio station, but it is not something that we have any input into as a department.

 

2122       MS. BROWN:  Officially, CMOR is operated by the Students' Association.  Granted, they draw on our students, but they're not associated with the program in any official manner.

 

2123       MR. McGREGOR:  There have been years when not a single Cre-Com student has been involved in the CMOR programming at all.

 

2124       LEGAL COUNSEL:  If this licence is granted, would CMOR continue?

 

2125       MR. McGREGOR:  We've talked about that, and they feel they have no reason not to.  In fact, one of them will be appearing as an intervener tomorrow, the president of the Students' Association.  She feels that in actual fact, this will benefit the students because they don't always have enough volunteers to stay operating during the daytime.  When they can't, they actually have a local radio station that they pipe through the hallways and they would rather be piping us through the hallways.  So they've indicated that they'll do that.

 

2126       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Do they move to the new campus?

 

2127       MR. McGREGOR:  No.

 

2128       LEGAL COUNSEL:  They stay there and your department moves to the new campus?

 

2129       MR. McGREGOR:  Right.

 

2130       LEGAL COUNSEL:  And in terms of implementing, I get the impression by the immanency of the new move and the way the dates fall, that you probably would implement not at the old campus but at the new campus, and you wouldn't even try to start up at the old; is that right?

 

2131       MR. McGREGOR:  Correct.

 

2132       LEGAL COUNSEL:  So the implementation, you're looking presumably for September of this year?

 

2133       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

2134       LEGAL COUNSEL:  And presumably at the new campus?

 

2135       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

2136       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Provided all the technical things get sorted out, et cetera?

 

2137       MR. McGREGOR:  Easier said than done.  Yes.

 

2138       LEGAL COUNSEL:  And it's a large et cetera too.

 

2139       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.

 

2140       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Given the presence of N.I.B.'s Instructional Campus Station, can you tell us how different your proposed station would be from N.I.B.'s?

 

2141       MR. HYLTON:  Counsel, does one approach that from the legal point of view, or are you looking more at the differences in curriculum or programming?  Pardon my asking, but it might be helpful if I got a little expansion on your --

 

2142       LEGAL COUNSEL:  I was looking at it from a programming point of view.  I don't know even what the legal perspective would be on that question, but I was really looking from a programming perspective?

 

2143       MR. McGREGOR:  I think from a programming perspective, the short answer would be that we are an educational institution and our mandate as such is to provide learning outcomes for students that are useful for them when they get out into the work world.

 

2144       So everything we do at Red River College is aimed at getting students their first job and ensuring them long-term success in their chosen career.  I'm not familiar with anything that Mr. McCrea has been doing of late, and I'm not sure what his mandate would be, so I -- unfortunately I missed his presentation this morning, so I didn't have an opportunity to hear what might be similar or different within his application.

 

2145       MR. HYLTON:  Counsel, I was there and so were the others of the group this morning.  I guess if we could just reflect on the fact that we are the only non-commercial, instructional, educational service which has applied here, that may be of some assistance.  But as far as the curriculum is concerned, and as far as the programming which is going to flow from the curriculum, all of that would be within the bounds of a college environment, one which is recognized by the province, and one which has upgraded itself through the addition of a very important major, which has been added, which has been referred to here.

 

2146       I mention that major because it becomes the kind of jumping-off spot, one that I assisted in to some very small part, in making sure that it was understood that having a major in an academic environment, within a college which is a recognized institution of a non-commercial, educational nature, was going to be a very important framework, or base, within which to have this type of broadcasting facility to serve that.

 

2147       What we are not able to describe to you is the nature of the training, the standards that are applied, or the curriculum that flows from what I heard from the applicant who was presenting that earlier today.  So I don't think we can really answer your question because we don't know and we we're apprised of what that background was today.

 

2148       LEGAL COUNSEL:  But vis-à-vis your own intentions, the intention is to complement the market, I take it?  Complement the market in comparison to what else is available in the market; is that correct?  Provide complementary programming?

 

2149       MR. McGREGOR:  Yes.  I guess when you say "complementary," we don't intend to complement what N.I.B. may be doing at another point on the dial.  We complement based on our curriculum and what the industry is looking for and what our advisory committee members are telling us.  Yes.

 

2150       LEGAL COUNSEL:  And by complement the market in that context, I meant as available, what's available in the commercial part of the market.

 

2151       MR. McGREGOR:  Sure.  Yes.

 

2152       LEGAL COUNSEL:  Thank you.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

 

2153       THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, panel.  We'll now take our evening break for quite a long time, until 8:30 tomorrow morning.  Thank you.

 

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1633, to resume on Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 0830 / L'audience est ajournée à 1633, pour reprendre le Mercredi 6 février 2002, à 0830