ARCHIVÉ -  Transcript/Transcription - Vancouver, BC/(C.-B.) - 2001/10/15

 

 

 

 

 

 

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU

CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

 

 

 

SUBJECT / SUJET:

 

 

Multiple broadcasting and ownership applications & applications further to Public Notice 2001-32 "Call for applications for a broadcasting licence for an ethnic television programming undertaking to serve Vancouver, B.C.".

 

Demandes de radiodiffusion et de propriétés multiples ainsi que les demandes suite à l'avis public CRTC 2001-32 "Appel de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation à caractère ethnique pour desservir Vancouver (C.-B.)".

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                            TENUE À:

 

Renaissance Vancouver       Renaissance Vancouver

Hotel Harbourside                Hotel Harbourside

1133 West Hastings Street   1133 West Hastings Street

Harbourside Ballroom II & III  Harbourside Ballroom II & III

Vancouver, British Columbia Vancouver (Colombie-Britannique)

 

 

15 October, 2001                 le 15 octobre 2001

 

 

 

Volume 1

 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

 

 

Canadian Radio‑television and

Telecommunications Commission

 

Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

Transcript / Transcription

 

 

Multiple broadcasting and ownership applications & applications further to Public Notice 2001-32 "Call for applications for a broadcasting licence for an ethnic television programming undertaking to serve Vancouver, B.C.".

 

Demandes de radiodiffusion et de propriétés multiples ainsi que les demandes suite à l'avis public CRTC 2001-32 "Appel de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation à caractère ethnique pour desservir Vancouver (C.-B.)".

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Andrée Wylie                           Vice-Chair Broadcasting

                                               / Vice-Président, Radio diffusion

Cindy Grauer                            Commissioner / Conseillère

Martha Wilson                          Commissioner / Conseillère

Joan Pennefather                      Commissioner / Conseillère

Andrew Cardozo                       Commissioner / Conseiller

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Martine Vallee                          Hearing Manager / Gérant de

                                               l'audience

Marguerite Vogel                      Secretary / secrétaire

Carolyn Pinsky                         Legal Counsel /

                                               conseillère juridique

 

 

 

HELD AT:                                 TENUE À:

 

Renaissance Vancouver            Renaissance Vancouver

Hotel Harbourside                     Hotel Harbourside

1133 West Hastings Street        1133 West Hastings Street

Harbourside Ballroom II & III       Harbourside Ballroom II & III

Vancouver, British Columbia      Vancouver (Colombie-Britannique)

 

 

 

15 October, 2001                      le 15 octobre 2001

 

 

                              Volume 1

 

 

 

TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES

 

                                                                                            PARA NO.

 

PHASE I

 

 

APPLICATION BY / APPLICATION PAR

 

by CFMT-TV / par CFMT-TV                                                              107

 

by Multivan Broadcast Corporation /                                                 1435

par Multivan Broadcast Corporation

 

Vancouver, British Columbia / Vancouver, Colombie Britannique

--- Upon commencing on Monday, October 15, 2001 at 0900 / L'audience débute lundi, le 15 octobre 2001 à 0900

 

1   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.  Bonjour, mesdames et messieurs, et bienvenue à cette audience puublique.

 

2   Welcome to this public hearing to examine two applications for an ethnic television station in Vancouver, as well as an application for the license renewal of a religious television station in Lethbridge.

 

3   My name is Andrée Wylie.  I am Vice-Chair, Broadcasting, for the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission ‑‑ from now on the CRTC ‑‑ and I will be presiding over this hearing.

 

4   Members of the panel are, to my immediate left, Cindy Grauer, who is the Regional Commissioner for British Columbia and the Yukon, and to her left, Martha Wilson, who is the Regional Commissioner for Ontario.  To my immediate right is Andrew Cardozo, and to his right, Commissioner Pennefather.  Andrew is a commissioner too.

 

5   The staff who will assist us in this hearing are the hearing Manager, Martine Vallee, our Legal Counsel, Carolyn Pinsky, and our Hearing Secretary, Marguerite Vogel, and of course, our analysts and file coordinators, Jane Britten, Ian McDiarmid and Janet Glendenning.  Do not hesitate to speak to Ms. Vogel if you have any procedural questions.

 

6   This hearing will start with a special representation by the Vancouver Media Directors Guild.  The panel will then begin its examination of the two competing applications submitted by CFMT-TV and the Multivan Broadcast Corporation for licenses for a new ethnic television station to serve the Greater Vancouver Area.  We will then hear the renewal application of CJIL-TV, Lethbridge.

 

7   Before we proceed any further, allow me to provide you with some of the background to the two competing applications.

 

8   On October the 4th, 2000, the Governor in Council asked the Commission to prepare a report on the earliest possible establishment of over-the-air television services that reflect and meet the needs of the multicultural, multilingual and multiracial population of the Vancouver and Victoria markets.

 

9   On February 28th, 2001, the Commission submitted its report to the Governor in Council and issued a call for applications for a new over-the-air ethnic television service in Vancouver.

 

10  In its report, the Commission concluded that there was a significant demand for a new ethnic over-the-air television service in Vancouver.  The Commission also noted that the vast majority of people who submitted comments believed that the licensing of this service with a strong local component was essential for the diverse and growing multicultural, multilingual and multiracial population of Greater Vancouver.

 

11  In its call for applications, the Commission asked applicants to address, amongst other things, the following issues in their applications:  How their proposed service would contribute to achieving the objectives of the Broadcasting Act; how many ethnic groups and languages they intended to reach; and how they would promote the development of local and regional talent.

 

12  As it examines these two applications, the Commission will also be looking at how the applicants intend to ensure that the proposed new service reflects Greater Vancouver's diverse ethnic community.  It will also consider the applicants' plans to reflect the local community to serve their audiences and to support independent production.

 

13  The application of CFMT, a division of Rogers Broadcasting Limited, will be heard first.

 

14  We will then hear the application of Multivan Corporation.  This part of the hearing will be in four phases which Ms. Vogel, the Hearing Manager will outline before we begin.

 

15  The panel will then examine an application from the Miracle Channel Association to renew the license of the CJIL television station in Lethbridge, Alberta, that expires on February 28th, 2002.

 

16  In particular, the panel will discuss with the licensee its apparent failure to comply with a number of regulatory requirements in the 1998/1999 and 1999/2000 broadcast years.

 

17  We expect this hearing to last four days until Thursday, October 18th.  On Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, we will begin at 8:30 in the morning and plan to adjourn around 6:00 p.m. with only a one hour break for lunch.

 

18  With so many interveners participating in the hearing, we anticipate that our entire consideration of the ethnic television proposals may take us to Thursday morning, at which time we will hear CJIL's application for renewal.

 

19  We will advise you, of course, of any change in the schedule that may occur as we proceed.

 

20  Cell phones and beepers must be turned off when you are in the hearing room.  They are an unwelcome distraction for the applicants, the interveners and the commissioners.  We would appreciate your cooperation at all times during the hearing in this regard, and if I catch one of the commissioners doing it, we start an impeachment proceeding.

 

21  Before we begin, I invite our Hearing Secretary, Ms. Vogel, to explain the process that we will be following.

 

22  Thank you.  Et merci à tout le monde.  Madame Vogel, à vous la parole.  I want also to advise that after we hear the special representation, we will take a ten minute break so that the Rogers panel has an opportunity to settle itself.  Thank you.  Ms. Vogel.

 

23  THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  First I'll describe the procedure that will be followed for hearing today's competing applications.  Competitive applications are held in four phases.

 

24  Phase I is a presentation by each applicant to the Commission.  When your name is called, please make your way to the table directly across from me.  Twenty minutes is allotted for each presentation.  Questions from the Commission will normally follow each applicant's presentation.

 

25  In Phase II, the applicants reappear in the same order as they presented their applications to intervene against the other applicant.  Ten minutes is allotted for each intervention.  Questions from the Commission may follow each intervention.

 

26  Phase III is where the appearing interveners make their presentations to the Commission.  Ten minutes is allocated for each of these presentations, and again there may be questions from the Commission.

 

27  Phase IV provides an opportunity for each applicant to reply to the interventions that have been filed with respect to its application.  Applicants appear in reverse order.  Ten minutes is allotted for this reply, and again, questions may follow.

 

28  Just a note, when you're ready to present to the Commission, be sure to hit the button on the microphone so that the red light comes on the mike.  For your general information, the public files associated with items at this hearing are available in the Singapore Room which is on the third floor directly above us.

 

29  CRTC staff in that room will be pleased to assist you, but please be aware that while an application is being heard, the public files associated with it will be in this room, and not available for viewing.

 

30  There is a verbatim transcript of this hearing being taken by court reporters who are located at the table to my left.  If you have any questions about how to obtain all or parts of this transcript, please approach the court reporter during a break for information.

 

31  Finally, if you want to have messages taken, we will be happy to post them outside the public examination room.  The phone number in our public exam room is 604-666-3254, and if you have any further questions, don't hesitate to contact any one of us.  We'll be more than pleased to assist you where we can.

 

32  And now, Madam Chair, with your leave, I will call the general representation.  Mr. Butler, would you come forward, please?

 

33  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning, Mr. Butler.

 

34  MR. BUTLER:  Thank you for taking the time to hear us.  I am president of Vancouver Media Directors Council.  We are an independent group representing advertising agencies, media directors, independent media planners and buyers.  Our business is primarily local and regional in nature, placing advertising throughout British Columbia and Western Canada and throughout Canada.

 

35  We are here to address the recent CRTC decisions 458 and 459.  We are here because we were caught by surprise.  While the CRTC information is public process, we only hold ourselves to task that this information came forward without our input.  Obviously we have to pay closer attention to the details going on.

 

36  Traditionally, we've relied on our broadcaster partners in terms of relaying information to us about the decisions that CRTC might be placing that would affect us in our markets. 

 

37  Whenever new licenses are issued, generally we're asked for our opinions, our input and our support.  Whenever new rating services are applied, we're asked for our opinions and our support.  But when we deal with decisions 458 and 459, the aspect of those decisions changed how advertising was sold to advertisers in British Columbia.  And while that decision was faced in front of the CRTC from, as we understand it, back in March, we had no understanding that those discussions were going on, and we were not included and did not have an opportunity to provide input in those discussions, and for that we can only apologize to the CRTC.

 

38  The recent CRTC decisions, 458 and 459, are now in effect, and the implications of these decisions has created some turmoil among us that we feel needs to be brought to light.

 

39  It is our view that the recent decisions by the CRTC were placed to protect the operations of B.C. Interior TV stations.  There is a consensus among us that there is a primary need to protect the interest and economics of the B.C. Interior TV stations and their markets, and for that we've always provided support.

 

40  Prior to the decisions going into effect on September 1, we used to have sort of three classifications of advertisers in British Columbia.

 

41  National advertisers, defined as those with products and services available widely or not necessarily in their own proprietary stores, brands essentially.  They might include Coca-Cola, Labatt, Ford. 

 

42  Regional advertisers were those with products and services available throughout B.C. and Western Canada, who typically are considered on the same basis as national advertisers but don't share a national interest.  Examples might be Dairy World, government corporations like B.C. Hydro, et cetera.

 

43  And local advertisers, those advertisers with products and services available in a limited geographic area, or have specific proprietary retail outlets.  Examples might include Shoppers Drug Mart, McDonald's Restaurants.

 

44  We are concerned that the CRTC decisions 458 and 459 force a redefinition of those classifications into only two groups, national and local, based on how much of a specific telecaster's airtime they have bought, be it nationally or regionally. 

 

45  458 and 459 effectively eliminate any regional classification and force all advertisers to be considered retail in terms of regional.

 

46  What this does as far as our input is concerned, is it creates an imbalance where there used to be a balance.  For the past 25 years, certain practices have been in place that provided a balance.  For example, Shoppers Drug Mart, which technically is a retail advertiser, now classifies as national since they purchase network airtime.  They weren't classified that before in this province.  However, a competitor in the same product category, London Drugs, doesn't buy national airtime.  They have no need to advertise on a national basis.

 

47  They maintain their retail status in British Columbia, but because of how advertising services are sold, they effectively pay more to compete in the same marketplace in British Columbia for the same product.

 

48  Furthermore, how these decisions will be interpreted and enforced by local TV stations which may or may not have adequate information to make a correct determination of an advertiser's status causes us some concern. 

 

49  We don't know how the rulings are going to be policed, how coverage rules are enforced, and who's responsible for coverage.  That hasn't been explained to us in any detail at all.

 

50  As well, as we stated earlier, we support protecting the economic assets and business of the Interior television stations.  We feel they have a real benefit to those areas of the province and they support us in our retail efforts in those areas.

 

51  But it's our professional opinion that most advertisers who lose the right to have province-wide coverage will not increase their budgets to reinstate covered ad messages in outlying markets.  Rather, the economic effect will be to focus their attention where the bulk of population resides, and that being the Lower Mainland.

 

52  This could possibly result in sales losses in the outlying markets on behalf of all regional advertisers who can no longer afford a marketing presence there.  This may have a completely opposite effect of what we believe the rulings intended.  These decisions may do more for radio and newspaper sales in those markets than they will for TV.

 

53  We also feel that the net impact of these decisions is felt most by those advertisers which have the fewest opportunities for cost-efficient television advertising, that being regional advertisers.

 

54  In the past number of years, over 30 percent of TV audiences that were available to us in this market are now gone because they are transferred to national only services through network cable channels.

 

55  Nationally, those network cable channels can be utilized, and effectively, because they are sold at a lot more efficient cost, effectively decrease the cost of television to national advertisers.  However, because those audiences have been removed from us, they create a fragmentation issue.  It creates a situation where we're losing audience here locally to purchase locally, because we're losing supply.  It falsely increases the demand on the audiences available here.  And in increasing demand, it tremendously increases cost.

 

56  In the terms of this agreement, we also see an increase in cost of television advertising, and we also see another further force to push regional and local advertisers off of a local medium, that being television, and that causes us great concern. 

 

57  We're losing our ability to use television strategically in media, simply because the costs are outstripping the availability of us to be able to use it.

 

58  The other issues that were essentially put in effect with decisions 458 and 459 is the classification of Global Television as a network.

 

59  In the terms of the agreement as we understand it, if Global is purchased across the country, than the CHAN signal can be then delivered throughout the province on an uncovered basis.  However, with CTV and with CBC, you can buy one program and it will appear across the country, but Global is not a network technically.  We cannot buy a program on Global and have it appear in all 12, 13 or 14 markets that they control.  Essentially, as Global is sold on an à la carte basis, we have to buy 14 different markets, and that program has to be available in 14 different markets.  So we are confused as to how the rules as applied to CTV network apply to Global when they are technically spot market in nature.

 

60  Another avenue of concern that this issue brings further scrutiny to is the fact that Global and CTV-British Columbia, can conceivably sell a greater portion of inventory to network buyers while at the same time, again, increasing costs and decreasing access to regional advertisers for Vancouver advertising time.

 

61  What we understand, there are also tremendous situations that are different between here and Ontario, subject to ownership and the like.  There are consistency issues on how the rules are being applied in British Columbia, as perhaps in Ontario, where in Ontario, there are regional stations in Ottawa, London, Hamilton, but they do not have the ability to cover over non-network advertisers on Global and CTV under the same terms as British Columbia.

 

62  While we understand there's different ownership issues at play, it's the consistency issues that we bring forward on that.

 

63  And in closing, we were caught unawares.  It's our fault.  However, we also feel that the information as it's presented from the CRTC on their website could be better organized.  With the CRTC facing over 3,000 individual decisions every year within radio, television and telecommunications, as a small organization and a small group of individuals, we just don't have the power to be able to monitor the CRTC's activities in that way.  And through this process, we'd like to suggest that maybe there's a better way to organize the CRTC website so that we can have a little easier access and understanding of the activities of the CRTC, and effectively you could benefit from our input in advance, rather than bring forward to you a complaint after the fact, which essentially you may have no ability to do anything about.

 

64  We would like to put forward that there is significant turmoil about the decisions of the CRTC, 458 and 459.  There still is no agreement among the broadcasters about how this issue could be handled or changed.  There is quite a lot of animosity, a lot of emotion involved in this issue. 

 

65  And if there was an opportunity to bring this issue back to the table, we think it's detrimental for this industry to look at this decision for the next seven years.  We think it will ultimately harm the Interior TV stations.

 

66  And if there is an opportunity to discuss this further, we'd like to put forward to all parties that we'd be interested in helping with those discussions, at least coming up with an agreement that maybe could bring forward some of the spirit of the agreements we were operating in in the last 25 years, and also in the new reality, the spirit the decisions 458 and 459 were made.  Thank you very much.

 

67  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Butler.  Commissioner Grauer, please.

 

68  COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  Mr. Butler, thank you for taking the time to be here today. 

 

69  Without reviewing the entire history of this situation we find ourselves in, as I understand it, there was a historic arrangement between CHAN and the interior broadcasters which existed for many years, and in fact identified by name certain advertisers.  Now, is this what constitutes the classifications you've referred to?

 

70  MR. BUTLER:  Essentially, yes.  We as buyers essentially live by the rules that were laid down to us.  We were told which advertisers could purchase a signal across British Columbia and those that couldn't.

 

71  COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  By name?

 

72  MR. BUTLER:  By name.  Now, we have been involved in that for -- well, I was raised on it.  Put it that way.  That was something that we always understood, that there was two levels of classifications in British Columbia, and I have no understanding of whether that was ever written down anywhere, but that's the rules we played by, and it was well understood by anybody in this province who had to buy advertising what those rules were.

 

73  COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Because of course what happened was when the changeover happened between CTV and Global with respect to CHAN, we then received an application to carry CTV throughout the Interior, and it was important to us as a commission to find a way to do that, and it raised this situation, as you know. 

 

74  And certainly a primary concern of ours was some protection of the markets of those broadcasters licensed to serve the Interior stations.

 

75  And as you know, we encouraged all the parties to reach a negotiated commercial solution.  This was not something we really wanted to deal with by way of condition of license.  Unfortunately, the parties were not able to do that.

 

76  Now, that does not mean that a commercial solution isn't still possible.  The fact that there's a condition of license in no way precludes any commercial arrangement.  This one existed to a large extent outside any commission, regulation, or condition of license.  And in fact you talk about Ontario.  There may well be commercial arrangements in place.  The fact is there hasn't been any problems.  It hasn't come to us, so we haven't had to deal with it.

 

77  Have you had discussions with all the broadcasters on this?

 

78  MR. BUTLER:  We've met recently with CTV-British Columbia, and with the representatives of the Interior TV stations.  We've had previous phone conversations with Global but have not met with them recently on the issue.  But essentially we have a pretty good understanding of the positions of each.

 

79  COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  I want to add also, you can understand our reluctance when this was in front of us to get into identifying specific advertisers by way of having to deal with this in one form or another, and this seemed like a reasonable solution and a way of avoiding having to get into providing lists.

 

80  Do you think its possible to negotiate a commercial solution?

 

81  MR. BUTLER:  Based on our discussions, I'm not exactly sure.  The way it was seemed to work pretty well.  We as media people assumed, in our error, that the rules as they were applied to CHAN would be applied to CTV-British Columbia, if in fact they were allowed to have the same rights as CHAN did in the province essentially.  So that's really what caught us unawares, was our assumption of that, but that has worked for 25 years.

 

82  I don't know if anybody had ever written down any advertisers as far as that goes.  I think there was a set of principles that guided that, but I'm not sure if there was ever a list ‑‑ as it's been termed, the list ‑‑ I'm not sure there was ever a list, but there was a set of principles that guided which advertisers could and couldn't.

 

83  COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Well, unfortunately we can't go back to where we were, but the one thing I want to reiterate is, notwithstanding the fact that there are conditions of license in place, this in no way precludes the broadcasters from negotiating a commercial arrangement which is satisfactory to all the parties.

 

84  And I take it from some of the questions you've raised, that you have some questions of clarification or possibly a complaint you'd like to make with us. 

 

85  And I say that because we can't certainly deal with it right here at this panel, but there are ways that you could pursue a complaint or seek clarification with the Commission.

 

86  MR. BUTLER:  It's just in relation to how you might determine an advertiser who would be national versus local, how that gets applied.  Questions came forward, if we placed one commercial at one time on a national broadcast such as Canada AM, does that give us the right then, to be a national broadcaster in British Columbia?

 

87  It's consistency issues.  It's definition.  And it's so new we really haven't had a chance to work with it in any great way, but certainly there's a lot of grey area involved with it.

 

88  COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Have you found willingness on the part of the broadcasters to work with you to try and sort this out in a way that isn't punitive to the local and regional advertiser?

 

89  MR. BUTLER:  They've all expressed an interest to at least discuss it further.  I don't know if there's any avenue for solution between the various parties, but we have had some expressions of interest from some of them, that they would be willing to talk about it.  But the positions of the various people are very different.  So whether or not a solution could be found quickly, I'm not exactly sure.

 

90  COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Do you have anything specific that you would like us to do?

 

91  MR. BUTLER:  It becomes very difficult for us to suggest to the CRTC how things should be done.  We're reacting ‑‑ that's really what it comes down to ‑‑ and providing our input into a forum where we previously didn't.

 

92  We don't think this is the best agreement as it's been laid down, and all we could ask is that if there would be an opportunity to be able to bring the parties back to a table again and at least be able to discuss it, would be a benefit, rather than having to watch what this agreement might do to the interior stations over the next few years.

 

93  COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Well, I guess I'd like to be very clear.  There is nothing precluding a commercial arrangement, in fact, and nothing would make us happier.  So you don't need our -- nobody needs our permission to negotiate a commercial solution, and if the broadcasters came forward with that, that will be satisfactory.  So I thank you very much for being here today.

 

94  MR. BUTLER:  Thank you.

 

95  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you. Commissioner Grauer.  You're a very brave commissioner to ask any -- oh, don't leave -- to ask any person appearing before us what it is they'd like us to do.  That's very dangerous.  I will say --

 

96  COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Well, I'd love to know if he has ideas.

 

97  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I hope there's no journalists in the room, because they usually have an answer to that, as to what the CRTC should do.

 

98  You may have seen the public notice, but your allegation is that even if you'd seen it, you would have assumed that the rules would continue as they were, and so your procedural concern is that our public notices do not explain sufficiently what may be the fallout.

 

99  MR. BUTLER:  Essentially, we didn't actually even see the public notice as far as I know.  We knew that CTV-British Columbia, had to have some sort of solution to broadcasting the CTV signal throughout British Columbia, but to tell you the truth, any one of us didn't point to any sort of notice to say what the implications of that could be.

 

100     As I understand it, after the fact CTV applied to have their signal carried through cable stations, and that would have given CTV-British Columbia full coverage of British Columbia, but it brought into question how would you carry the coverage rules, and at that point I guess if we understood that process to happen in some way, we assumed in our error that the same rules that had previously applied would be carried through.

 

101     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Of course, we know our website can be improved, but you mentioned yourself, we issue thousands of decisions a year, so it's quite difficult to make them always as meaningful and as easily accessible as you would like them to be, but we certainly would welcome any suggestions from any party as to how to improve it further so that information is indeed disseminated as transparently and as efficiently as possible.

 

102     We certainly appreciate your coming, and exposing your concern to us, and as Commissioner Grauer discussed with you, there is always a way of changing things, as you found out in this case, not to your advantage.  Thank you.

 

103     We will now take a ten-minute break to allow the Rogers people to settle their panel comfortably.  We will be back then in ten minutes.  Nous reprendrons dans dix minutes.

 

--- Upon recessing at 0930 / Suspension à 0930

 

--- Upon resuming at 0945 / Reprise à 0945

 

104     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  Madam secretary, please.

 

105     THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  The first application today is one by CFMT-TV, a division of Rogers Broadcasting Limited, for a license to operate a multilingual ethnic television station in Vancouver.  The applicant proposes to direct programming to 22 ethnic groups in 18 different languages. 

 

106     The new station would operate on channel 42C with an effective radiated power of 240,800 watts.  I believe Mr. Wong is going to present the panel.  Would you proceed whenever you're ready, please.

 

107     MR. WONG:  Thank you.  Madam Chair, Members of the Commission:

 

108     I am Glenn Wong, General Manager of Local Multilingual Television.  We are pleased to appear before you to present our application for LMtv, a new multiligual television station to serve the large and diverse ethnic communities here in Vancouver. 

 

109     With me today are:  Indira Naidoo-Harris, producer and news anchor at CFMT-TV in Toronto; Mason Loh, a well known community activist and Vice Chair of the LMtv Advisory Board; Madeline Ziniak, Vice President, Executive Producer and Station Manager, CFMT; and Tony Viner, President of Rogers Media.

 

110     At the next table, we have:  Leslie Sole, Executive Vice President Television, Rogers Media; Viddear Khan, Program Controller, CFMT; Robert Buchan of the law firm Johnston & Buchan; Robin Mirsky, Executive Director of the Rogers Group of Funds; and Jim Nelles, Vice President Marketing and Sales, CFMT.

 

111     At the third table and available for your questioning, are the authors of our expert research studies:  Kaan Yigit, of Solutions Research Group; Dr. Lock Sing Leung, LLS Market Research Inc.; Jane Armstrong, Environics Research; and Bruce Grondin, The Media Edge.

 

112     Also at that table are:  Wai Young, Director, Program and Community Development, LMtv; and Tom Ayley, Vice President, Finance, CFMT.

 

113     Seated in the audience are:  Kelly Colasanti, Vice President Operations and Engineering, CFMT; Steve Edwards, Vice President Engineering, Rogers Media; and Malcolm Dunlop, General Sales Manager, CFMT.

 

114     In addition, I would like to acknowledge Ted Rogers, President and CEO, and Phil Lind, Vice Chair, Rogers Communications, as well as Senator Pat Carney, of the Rogers Media Board of Directors.  And Mason will begin our presentation.

 

115     MR. LOH:  Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, as Glenn mentioned, I am the Vice Chair of the LMtv Advisory Board.  The Chairperson is Mobina Jaffer.  She has been a deeply committed supporter of LMtv for the past eight years.  During that time, the number of people who share Mobina's vision of a free, ethnic television station for Vancouver has grown.  Over 1,600 individuals have filed interventions in support of this application.

 

116     LMtv was developed by the community of Vancouver for the community.  In hundreds of community meetings and in workshops, we met with residents and developed partnerships with local agencies.  We have filed a comprehensive application that takes into account the real and urgent needs of local residents.

 

117     LMtv will not just reflect different cultures and languages.  It will present a knowledgeable and realistic picture of our communities and facilitate cross-cultural discussion.  In so doing, LMtv will help to build a more accepting and inclusive society.

 

118     All of that is very important, but it is not enough.  From our extensive community consultations, we know that many, many people in Vancouver's ethnic communities are deeply distressed about negative portrayal in the media.  Whether it is intended or inadvertent, negative portrayal reinforces inaccurate and offensive stereotypes.  It strengthens prejudices and promotes discrimination.  The backlash against members of the Muslim, and more specifically, the Arabic communities following the tragic events of September 11^th highlights the damaging and dangerous consequences of careless stereotyping and the lack of inter-cultural understanding.

 

119     LMtv will directly address these concerns.  On behalf of our communities, we will spend $1 million over the first five years of the license term to combat negative portrayal and to promote positive portrayal of minorities in the electronic media.

 

120     We will fund the establishment of an independent electronic media watchdog here, right here in British Columbia.  This group will have a mandate to promote positive portrayal in the electronic media in British Columbia, including LMtv.  We will ask an individual of very high standing in the community to serve as the Portrayal Ombudsman and to take the lead on this initiative.

 

121     In addition, we have entered into an agreement with the Pearson Shoyama Institute to support the development of a Canada-wide diversity data bank.  This databank will directly contribute to positive portrayal by providing broadcasters and producers with a comprehensive catalogue of people from different minority groups, who are qualified to work in television or who would appear on-air as expert commentators.

 

122     Only LMtv has made such a comprehensive commitment to building a more accepting and inclusive community. 

 

123     Glenn.

 

124     MR. WONG:  By the year 2005, there will be almost 1 million people in Vancouver whose mother tongue is neither English nor French.  LMtv will be their true and strong voice.

 

125     We will hit the ground running.  From day one, we will offer 65 hours of the highest quality local programming each week.  Our application includes detailed program descriptions that clearly set out how we propose to serve up to 24 ethnocultural groups in 24 different languages.

 

126     We have made important additional commitments to support the development of Canadian talent and to contribute to the community, totalling $30 million over the term of the license.

 

127     Currently there is no funding in Canada for the independent production of dramatic and documentary programming in third languages.  LMtv will address this fundamental inequity.

 

128     We will spend $23 million on the production of at least 165 new, third language dramatic and documentary programs by B.C. based independent producers.  These programs will chronicle the development of our communities, profile community leaders, and address important social and cultural issues.  They will all be broadcast on LMtv, and CFMT will license each of these productions for broadcast in Ontario.

 

129     Development money for third language programming is virtually impossible to secure in Canada, and LMtv will change that.

 

130     We will commit an addition $4 million to script and concept development for third language productions.  Approximately 40 new projects will be put into development each year, for a total of 280 projects over the term of the license. 

 

131     LMtv will also fund the production of very high quality public service announcements for local community groups.  This initiative will entail expenditures of $500,000 for the term of the license.

 

132     We will spend a further $1.5 million on broadcasting and journalism scholarships and to support exemplary work of ethnic, non-profit community groups in the Greater Vancouver area.

 

133     We will undertake many other unique initiatives to further enhance the quality and relevance of our local ethnic programming.

 

134     LMtv will have a strong presence at the B.C. Legislature and on Parliament Hill.  We will establish a news bureau in Victoria and will place an LMtv reporter in the CFMT news bureau in Ottawa.  When our communities have questions about provincial or national policies, we will be able to ask our politicians directly.

 

135     We will also establish an LMtv news presence in the Asia Pacific region to bring the perspective of our communities to bear directly on international issues and events.

 

136     We will support LMtv with strong and effective marketing.  We will devote $1 million each year to the promotion of our ethnic programming.

 

137     As is the case with CFMT in Toronto, the LMtv Advisory Board will play an active and involved role in the decision-making process.  We will seek its advice on our overall programming plans and on the development of responsive and relevant programming for each of the ethnic communities that we seek to serve. 

 

138     Indira.

 

139     MS. NAIDOO-HARRIS:  I was born in apartheid South Africa.  At that time, visible minorities were not allowed to vote, we were not allowed to go and live where we wanted to, and visible minorities in that country truly had no voice.

 

140     Thirteen years ago, I walked into the newsroom of an affiliate of NBC, in Albany, New York, and I realized that I wanted to be a broadcast journalist.  The newsroom was a place filled with stories.  It was place where people did have a voice.

 

141     Getting from New York to CFMT in Toronto, and to you, here today, in British Columbia has been a long and sometimes difficult journey.  I have worked in eight different newsrooms across Canada and the U.S., including NBC, PBS, and the CBC.  I have been a researcher, a reporter and a national news anchor.

 

142     Today, I am at CFMT not because I have to be there.  I have chosen to be there.  From the day I set food in a multilingual newsroom, I knew that it was a place like no other.  It looked and felt different.  It was filled with dozens of ethnically diverse journalists.  They were putting out shows that told the unique stories of their communities, in their own voice.  They were Canadian stories, but stories that were not being told in other newsrooms.

 

143     We report on the people who are often forgotten.  Like the unemployed Muslim woman living with seven children in a two-bedroom apartment, or the Indo-Canadian Red Cross worker in Bhuj right after the earthquake, or the Tamil couple that lost their child because hospital staff refused to believe the woman was in labour.

 

144     There is no question that these stories were compelling, and yet they were not reported in the mainstream media.  But we told these stories and we told them fairly, accurately, and sensitively.

 

145     In fact, we do it so well that we are constantly being called by people from the various communities with stories that they don't think anyone else can or will tell.

 

146     Right after the terrorist attack on September 11^th, when the Canadian Arab Federation wanted to let others know that they do not support terrorist attacks, they called us.

 

147     When the South Asian Women's Centre was fielding calls from women worried about their safety because their hijab makes them an identifiable target for violence, they called us.

 

148     And when the telephone at the Afghan Women's Centre was ringing off the hook because people were worried about their families in Afghanistan and here in Canada, they called us.

 

149     One Canadian Muslim woman trusted us enough to invite us into her home as she tried to help her children understand that there is no connection between her family's faith and culture and terrorism.

 

150     Why do people turn to us?  Because they know our work and they trust us, and they trust us to be fair.  And in return, we give them a voice.

 

151     We want to do that here in Vancouver with LMtv.  Through the use of pictures and compelling stories, we will shatter dangerous myths and misconceptions about things like turbans, the Muslim religion and new immigrants.  But perhaps most importantly, we will help everyone understand the customs and cultures of others.

 

152     Vancouver's ethnic communities need a television station to tell the stories that other media are not telling.  They need a fair and trusted voice for their communities.  LMtv will be that voice.

 

153     Madeline.

 

154     MS. ZINIAK:  LMtv will pursue a vision uniquely designed to meet the needs of Vancouver's ethnic communities.  At the same time LMtv will benefit from its association with CFMT.

 

155     Every day, broadcasters are called upon to make fair and balanced editorial decisions.  At a multilingual television station, those decisions are complicated by the fact that programming is produced in many different languages for viewers with widely varying cultural perspectives.  Even within specific ethnocultural groups, there are often significant linguistic, social, cultural and political differences.

 

156     Being fair and gaining the trust of viewers in such a complex environment is hard work.  It takes much more than just good intentions.  We have honed, refined, and practiced for more than 15 years to get it right.

 

157     We have learned that it is important to have a strong and effective local advisory board.  LMtv will have one.  We have long established, comprehensive policies that we will make available to LMtv.  We have proven procedures to guide the allocation of broadcast time between groups, to support the program development process and to address important social concerns, such as violence and portrayal.

 

158     LMtv will not have to reinvent the wheel.  With access to our expertise, LMtv will hit the ground running.  It will provide high quality, fair and balanced programming for Vancouver's ethnic community from the very beginning.

 

159     Tony.

 

160     MR. VINER:  LMtv will benefit from programming and marketing synergies with CFMT.  Those synergies will be reflected in the quality and diversity of LMtv's programming.

 

161     LMtv and CFMT will exchange news footage and reports to enhance each station's ability to provide coverage of issues and events across the country.  LMtv and CFMT will also exchange programs to provide local audiences in both Toronto and Vancouver with an increased choice and diversity of ethnic programming.

 

162     Synergies also play an important role in our vision of a stronger ethnic television broadcasting industry capable of supporting the production of high quality, Canadian priority programming in third languages.  Our commitments in this application lay the groundwork for a strong and vital independent ethnic production industry that produces a wide variety of programs of interest to Canadian audiences and with significant export potential.

 

163     LMtv will immediately benefit from local and national marketing synergies.  CFMT pioneered the development of national ethnic television advertising in Canada.  The revenue projections for LMtv reflect our confidence that joint sales and marketing with CFMT will bring substantial new ethnic television advertising revenues to the Vancouver television market.

 

164     Rogers has been actively involved in multicultural and multilingual television broadcasting in Canada for over 25 years.  We launched a multilingual programming service on cable in Toronto in 1974 and in Vancouver in 1981.  We acquired CFMT over 15 years ago when it was in serious financial difficulty, and have provided the resources necessary to make it an outstanding multilingual television service.

 

165     Given the history of instability of ownership of ethnic services, we want to assure the Commission that Rogers will provide stable, consistent and committed ownership for the long term.

 

166     Glenn.

 

167     MR. WONG:  Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, for the following five reasons, we believe that LMtv is uniquely qualified to serve real and urgent needs in our community.

 

168     Firstly, based on over eight years of consultation and partnership building, LMtv will be first and foremost a local multilingual television station, developed by our communities, for our communities.

 

169     Secondly, with the benefit of CFMT's world-renowned expertise and extensive experience, LMtv will offer a professional, balanced voice for our communities from the very beginning.

 

170     Thirdly, as our application clearly shows, our local ethnic programming will be of the highest quality, carefully designed to meet the needs and serve the interests of our communities.

 

171     Fourthly, our communities are deeply concerned about negative portrayal and we will respond to that concern with comprehensive, well funded, local and national initiatives.

 

172     And lastly, with the benefits of synergies, LMtv will be able to make a substantial additional commitment to Canadian talent development and the local community, totalling $30 million over the term of the license.

 

173     For these reasons, we believe that the approval of this application would be in the public interest.  And we will conclude our presentation with a brief video that will show you the dramatic impact that a station like LMtv can make in the community it serves.

 

174     (VIDEO PRESENTATION)

 

175     MR. WONG:  Madam Chair, that concludes our presentation.  Thank you.

 

176     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning, Mr. Wong and your colleagues, Mr. Rogers, Mr. Lind and Senator Carney.

 

177     I will begin the questioning with a discussion of your programming plans, Canadian and foreign, ethnic and mainstream, and your proposed contribution to the independent production community.

 

178     I will then have a few questions on demand and the complementarity of your proposed service in the Vancouver market.  Commissioner Cardozo will then follow with a discussion of your local presence and the mechanisms for community feedback.  He will also seek clarification on social issues related to your proposed service.

 

179     Commissioner Grauer will then discuss with you your business plan and expected synergies.  She may also have technical questions.  We will also rely on Commissioner Grauer to fill in any gaps that we left in our questioning and to pull together our examinations of the various parts of your application, where necessary.

 

180     Although some overlap may be inevitable in these three discreet portions, we will attempt, and so will you, I'm sure, to avoid that overlap as much as possible, given our tight schedule.

 

181     Our legal counsel may also have questions at the end of our questioning, and we will follow a similar procedure for the examination of Multivan's application.

 

182     You will, of course, correct me if I make any mistakes in my questioning, be they numerical or otherwise, and whether they're to your advantage or disadvantage.

 

183     I will start discussing with you the local programming and the local component of your application.  And the reason for that is the extent to which you state yourself in your supplementary brief, for example, at page 4, revised, and I quote:

 

        LMtv will provide predominantly local programming.

 

184     And at Schedule 9 of your application, page 8, you say, and I quote:

 

LMtv will first and foremost be a local Canadian multicultural and multilingual television station.

 

185     And similarly, in Section 18, at page 2, and I quote:

 

LMtv will offer predominantly local television that directly reflects and serves the unique demographic composition of the ethnic population in the Lower Mainland.

 

186     To what extent was your decision with respect to this local orientation influenced by the results of the studies you commissioned from Environics?

 

187     MR. WONG:  Madam Chair, it was our choice to provide that level of local programming.  It was influenced not only by the research we did but also by the many community groups that we've consulted.  We can go into greater detail, if you like, about the focus group research.  But it was very specific, the response we had from people, and I should tell you, most of my background has been in marketing so it would have been about my two hundredth focus group, and so I was delighted and surprised about how enthusiastic people were when we started talking about local programming for the ethnic communities here.

 

188     So the research confirmed very much that local programming is what the people wanted to see, and that's why we've chosen, in this case, to have 65 hours a week of local programming.

 

189     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Considering the extent to which the Environics results seem to confirm this is what people, at least the ones in the communities you canvassed, that they want local programming, it's important for us to understand what is your definition of "local" in this context, that is local programming.  For example, I could argue that -- not argue, but state, I suppose, that all produced in‑house programming is local, the news, for example.

 

190     MR. WONG:  I think that would be local.  When we talk about local, and in talking to people here, what it really means to them is it's a local perspective on national or international issues.  I mean, people, for instance, certainly want to know what happened in the last provincial election, and if you didn't speak English or French or Chinese, it was difficult to get daily coverage.

 

191     So locally produced would be part of it for sure.  But as well, it's to have a local perspective on issues that are international or national, and that's what people really want.  They want to know that Vancouver angle.

 

192     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So if it were produced by an independent producer, for example, or an associate, as you've called them, but it was not thematically local, would that be brought into the number of hours of local?

 

193     MR. WONG:  Yes, it would be.  I'm trying to think of an example, working with the independent producers, where it would be a story or a documentary or coverage of an event that is local in nature.  Those are the easy ones that classify as local.

 

194     I'm thinking of the many independent producers that we have met with.  And some of them have stories about China, which isn't really local content, but it relates very much to the development, for example, of the local Chinese community here.  So that would be local content.

 

195     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You can't imagine a situation where programming would be produced by an independent producer but would not be local.  So in that case, you would use that as a -- well, what would you look at?  Would you look at the theme, the perspective, or would you have some classifications that are predetermined, such as all the news, they're produced in-house.  If it's somebody who's from the area, an independent producer, or an associate, that would automatically go into the calculation of the hours?

 

196     MR. WONG:  Mm-hmm.  Yes.  I'm sorry, I'm struggling with this question because the independent producers could talk about or produce stories that are local, and they give a local perspective on an international issue.  We would consider that local.

 

197     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, I did eliminate, if the perspective was local, or the take on it was local, then even if it's an event occurring somewhere else, or it could be about unemployment insurance as it affects a local community, I would say that the theme or the perspective there would be local.  But you don't foresee the possibility that such producers would have broader -- the reason I'm asking is the Environics research situates the need as the need of the communities for a local station, and you have also situated it in that fashion, I believe, as I quoted back some of your statements, and then you have made some commitments as to hours of local.

 

198     So it's important to us to understand what "local" means and to have some measure of how one would see the extent to which you have mechanisms to check whether your orientation will, in fact, be what you say it is, especially when it's a competing application.  We believe it's important to know whether your goals will be reached by the application you put forward.

 

199     And of course, before we proceed further, when we do the calculation of the programming that is local, we get more than 60 hours.  But your supplementary brief, at page 3, appears to make a commitment of an average of 60 hours of local ethnic programming each week, of which 30 hours will be original.  And I noticed this morning that you mentioned 65 hours, at page 5 of your presentation.

 

200     So perhaps I'd like to know what is your commitment, because we may discuss at the end of this whether or not in these circumstances, given the emphasis on local, whether the Commission should bind you to a commitment in that regard. 

 

201     So it may be too early.  You may want to wait until the end to answer that.  But there is, I think, as many as 67.5 hours can be calculated from your Schedule 17.  Your commitment appears to be 60, with 30 original, and this morning we mentioned 65. 

 

202     There is in your application, in the executive summary at page 4, what appear to be your commitments in the crucial aspects of the application ‑‑ number of languages, of groups served, amount of third language programming, et cetera, Canadian content ‑‑ and there we find as the very first issue, broadcast over 60 hours of locally produced programming each week, of which at least 30 hours will be new and original.

 

203     Do you want to wait until later to tell us, if there were to be a commitment -- perhaps you should because I have some questions as to what is really local in the sense that the Environics study and your discussion this morning has raised.  So at the end of this discussion, I will ask you if we were, what would be the validity or reasonableness of tying you by condition of license to a certain amount of local programming, and if so, which of these numbers would be reasonable.

 

204     So let's look at the composition of your local programming, and let's start with news and your -- your commitment here is 30.5 hours per week, I believe, with 10 hours original?  And again, if I don't use proper numbers, even if you discover it after I'm on to something else, correct me, so that the record is fair to you.

 

205     So you also say, at Schedule 18, at page 3, and you repeated it this morning, that you will establish news bureaus in Victoria, Asia Pacific region, and you'll have an LMtv reporter in CFMT's Ottawa bureau.  And I think there is another part of your application in the supplementary brief that -- and you, I believe, mentioned it again this morning that there would be some input from Toronto, as well.

 

206     Now, before asking you more details about how this will be done, it's obvious from reading your application and from even not very deep knowledge of the inner ways of doing news, that newscasts will contain international, national, regional and local news.  But all of that will be local?

 

207     MR. WONG:  That's correct.

 

208     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So some international news will come directly from, let's say, Hong Kong.  You must have some feeds you pick up?

 

209     MR. WONG:  We have feeds, yes.  I'll give you another example, if I may, Madam Chair.  Currently, there is a stringer that CFMT has in Islamabad, so we're able to get a very local perspective on happenings in that region now.  And as news moves, obviously, throughout Asia Pacific region, we have various stringers and various correspondents that we would work with, again with an orientation of having a local perspective. 

 

210     THE CHAIRPERSON:  But there will be a portion of these newscasts that will be a straight feed ‑‑

 

211     MR. WONG:  Yes, that's --

 

212     THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- of international news, or what's happening in Ottawa, without any local perspective added?

 

213     MR. WONG:  Well, you know, we actually -- the way we would have, for instance, the Ottawa bureau work is we would have an LMtv reporter perhaps interviewing a Lower Mainland member of Parliament on a national issue, but from a local perspective.  So we would consider that local programming for the local ethnic communities.

 

214     THE CHAIRPERSON:  But there will be a part of the news that will look much like the top news on CTV and CBC?

 

215     MR. WONG:  Like any other local news service, yes.

 

216     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Considering that of your 60 hours of local programming, if it's 60 that you're prepared to commit to, half of that will be news, and all of that will be calculated as local, do you have a sense of the ratio of news that will not be from a local perspective, it will simply be international news, national news, as I see them on a mainstream station?

 

217     MR. WONG:  I'm sorry, because we haven't done that news broadcast yet ‑‑ what I would ask is, perhaps, Madeline Ziniak to talk about the CFMT experience.

 

218     What we really do know, though, is that it may be an international story, but it has to have a very, very local perspective.  For instance, the earthquake in India that Indira has helped cover for the local audiences in Toronto, while it was international news and there was international news feeds, there was certainly a local perspective on it and coverage from, in that case, a Toronto perspective.  In LMtv's case, it would be from a Vancouver perspective. 

 

219     Madeline.

 

220     MS. ZINIAK:  I would just like to add that all newscasts are local because the actual process of making editorial decisions of what goes into the newscast is local. 

 

221     These are needs from the community.  The producers, associate producers, the news director, those are all from Vancouver, and they are making decisions as to what their audiences want to see and hear.  And as we know, that if you're even working with international news feeds, the decision-making process, you choose stories that you know are going to fit into the local perspective.  And often, from our experiences, when we do choose international stories, there is always a local angle to that.

 

222     For example, if you're looking at the handover of Macao, certainly it's an international story, but you have a local interview that looks at the ramifications of the change of government, and you have to have a local interview.  We have audiences that demand that.

 

223     So I would conclude by saying even in the editorial process, the decision making with the way you edit a story, the way you choose a story, what's key in your line-up, that is local.  That's the only way to do it. 

 

224     THE CHAIRPERSON:  That would be true of material that is funnelled to Vancouver from CFMT?

 

225     MS. ZINIAK:  Yes, that's correct.  It has to be relevant and it has to be decided upon by the local team, who are from the various ethnocultural communities.

 

226     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, can you expand for us further as to what the Asia Pacific news bureau will be, in terms of staffing, where it will be located, et cetera?

 

227     MR. WONG:  It's not -- the opportunity for us with the Asia Pacific bureau is really to get coverage of that region which is the largest population base that's immigrating to Vancouver.  So it's obviously very relevant to a lot of our local ethnic communities.  And it's not so much a bricks and mortar, have a building set-up; it's more having a series of stringers so that we can be flexible and cover different regions quickly.

 

228     In addition to that, it will build off of the existing relationships that we have through CFMT with news services throughout Asia.  And to be very specific, in some cases those stringers are Canadians who have moved back to various regions, so they certainly understand the Canadian perspective and can report back with a local flavour, albeit from throughout the Asia Pacific region.

 

229     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And the Victoria bureau?

 

230     MR. WONG:  We'll have a mini-studio, if I could call it that, in Victoria, in order to cover our legislature.  We'll have a reporter and a camera operator and an edit facility there so that we can have feeds not just to LMtv, but also to CFMT.

 

231     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms. Ziniak, is what you just outline to us the -- would that also be the answer if I were to ask you to what extent would the newscast be different from what is already available to members of the community?

 

232     MS. ZINIAK:  Number one, the content will be different for the newscasts here at LMtv.  Certainly, the Canadian content would be different.  And as we talked about the bureaus, there will be a political perspective that will be included or reporting on the different political scenes here will be different because I don't think presently, as far as television goes, there is a reporter that can manage to ask questions of politicians, where the politicians will actually answer in various languages.

 

233     Because if I may, the way we operate our bureau in Ottawa, for example, is that we have a senior correspondent, David Battistelli, who can ask the question in Italian but also he would ask a question in English and ask the member of Parliament to answer in his language of origin.  And this is extremely important because in answering in the language of comfort to our audiences, and certainly, we have seen now, Victoria and British Columbia in general, has politicians who are from many, many ethnocultural communities, with accountability to these language communities, can answer in those languages, and that's extremely important.

 

234     Therefore, the question can be asked in English or another language, depending on who we hire as a correspondent, and the answer can be in the politician's language.  This, then, is incorporated into our newscasts and often we use this interview in many other newscasts as well.

 

235     What we produce also is a one-station story.  For example, recently we were one of the first to interview the president of the Muslim Community of Canada, when the tragedy of September the 11^th occurred.  He was not only used in the Arabic program, but the interview was used in our Italian, Portuguese, Chinese, Ukrainian, Polish, and other newscasts.  So that's how we would like to approach it.

 

236     MR. VINER:  Madam Chair, if I might?  If I could just add, for a moment, you know, there's a significant difference in the newscasts that you would see on LMtv, as there are in CFMT. 

 

237     Many of the stories that you saw on that video were never covered in the mainstream media.  I think that's an important distinction to make.  And of those stories that are covered, they're covered from a unique and specific perspective.  I think that's our contribution.  We try hard not to cover the same news in the same way as mainstream or conventional television and I think that's what has made CFMT a success and will make LMtv a success in this market.

 

238     MR. WONG:  Madam Chair, if I may, one of the other things that our community has told us repeatedly is that the ethnic experience is not necessarily unique by ethnocultural group.  And what I mean by that is, if you are an ethnic person in the Lower Mainland, you may more relate to another ethnocultural group before you relate to the mainstream.  And while there may be mainstream news and mainstream coverage of different stories, as an ethnic person, to be able to relate to a different ethnic group and what their successes and their struggles are are sometimes more relevant.

 

239     The way that would work in our newsroom is that we would send out a camera to cover a story, but the reporters from the different languages reporting to the different community groups would be able to talk amongst themselves and explain the story back and forth so that they can relate that same ethnic experience of once specific group to the rest of the community.  And that is something that people here have told us repeatedly that that's something that they can identify.  It may be about immigration or it could be about tax disclosure.  Different issues hit different ethnic groups different ways.  But that ability for ethnic people to relate to one another in their experiences is something that they want to see, and they'd like to see it on a daily basis.

 

240     THE CHAIRPERSON:  By the same token, Mr. Wong, my question was also how you'll handle the fact that what is relevant to an ethnocultural community in the Lower Mainland may not be the same as the issue that is of relevance to the same ethnocultural community in Toronto.  So you make my point.  That ethnocultural community may relate better to another one in the Lower Mainland than to their own in Toronto depending non the issue.  And of course, we want to hear you about whether the synergies with CFMT may be carried to a point where this local orientation will be effective.

 

241     So how will you ensure that that's not the case and that balance is kept in your approach to news with relevance to this particular community which may not have the same issues as the same one in Toronto?

 

242     MR. WONG:  Well, I guess I'd share it from a very personal perspective.  I'm a third generation Vancouverite, and we are naturally somehow raised to be suspicious of anyone east of the Rockies.  So as it relates to the news --

 

243     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And we are such nice people.

 

244     MR. WONG:  Well yes, that's true.

 

245     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good answer.

 

246     MR. WONG:  So in this case, specifically for LMtv, it's important to keep that same sort of fierce independence to reflect the local communities and the issues that they want to talk about.  Because we have so much news programming, it just isn't possible, in my mind, to sort of do that by remote control from one region or another.  It really has to be a local decision.  It has to be local management, local reporters, local editorial decision making.

 

247     The synergies ‑- and I know we'll talk about those later ‑‑ are more on technology or procedures as opposed to take this story and plunk it here.  In my mind ‑‑ and our research clearly confirms that ‑- that's not what our viewers want to see.  They want to know what's going on here and they want to know from a local perspective issues nationally and internationally.

 

248     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So the answer is that the choice of the news is what is crucial and that will be made here, whatever the source of the component is, whether it comes via a CFMT reporter in Ottawa or whether it's footage you use from Toronto or whether you use the same stringers, the choice will be made by the news managers of the proposed station?

 

249     MR. WONG:  That is correct, and specifically in Ottawa, that's why we'll put an LMtv reporter in that bureau.  They may share a phone but it'll be our reporter, and likewise with Victoria.

 

250     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I forget if it was Ms. Ziniak, but someone mentioned during the presentation your experience and the value of it in this proposal for avoiding stereotypes ‑‑ I may not be paraphrasing properly ‑‑ and ensuring balance, which can become a delicate issue because, unlike some of the mainstream people who often think that groups from a specific have no cultural heritage, all have the same interests and love each other and see the world in the same fashion, that you have a lot of experience in ensuring that balance is kept and sensitivities are taken into consideration.  That experience is a Toronto experience.  How will you ensure that a new experience is nurtured in Toronto, and what is the value of having had the experience in CFMT, but how will you then ensure that it's adapted to the area of the world which, according to Mr. Wong, is very far from Toronto, that you will be covering?

 

251     MR. WONG:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  The synergies portion of it is important to us but that local nature of what we're trying to do is equally important.  Maybe Madeline, I'm going to ask her to maybe explain the procedures part of it first, and then I'll follow after you.

 

252     MS. ZINIAK:  I'd like to start by saying that when I joined CFMT-TV when Rogers purchased CFMT-TV, there were no procedures or systems in place.  So what we have done since that time -- and this is what we would like to share with LMtv, are procedures that would include a program proposal and development procedure, how we deal with written proposals and pilot development for ethnocultural communities.

 

253     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, at the moment we're talking about news.  We'll get back to that.  You'll have an opportunity.  I'm just interested in the news component of it.  That area was what consists of quite a large proportion of news directed to the Chinese community and the South Asian community and how will you ensure -- and you can get back with me when we discuss independent production.

 

254     Don't tell me the message is I don't talk enough.

 

255     MR. WONG:  I'm not touching any more buttons.

 

256     THE CHAIRPERSON:  It's very important that we all turn off our mikes when -- whoops.

 

257     MR. WONG:  One of the things that makes us unique, we believe, in being able to have a local coverage and really reflect the local communities is that as a company, we've had the Rogers Multicultural Channel, and that gave us a lot of experience in understanding the sensitivities and the diversities within each ethnic community.  So from the outside the Punjabi community is large, but we know, having worked and having had extensive relationships in this eight-year process for this application, and through our advisory board members and the many, many thousands of community people that have talked to us, that there are distinct issues with each one of those communities, as you well noted.

 

258     And that sort of knowledge only comes from working and knowing people and building up relationships to a level of trust where people will be open and they will share stories and you do have contacts, and you don't have to ask someone else, "Who do I call for a story about this?"  And we would hope that building off of that relationship that we have already, that people would offer up and give ideas and give input on things that they would like to be covered.

 

259     So I think that our years of experience in this market, and specifically with the Multicultural Channel, does help us gain some understanding of the local ethnic communities and how we could serve them in a news broadcast.

 

260     THE CHAIRPERSON:  A last question on news.  There will be a component of your newscasts that will be in the English language.  You calculate all news as local for the reasons you've expressed.  I assume that newscasts will all be calculated as third language as well?

 

261     MR. WONG:  Yes.

 

262     THE CHAIRPERSON:  What is in general the component of newscasts that are not in third language when it's, let's say, a Chinese newscast or South Asian newscast?  Am I right that that's calculated in your requirement to reach a certain percentage of third language programming, that the entire newscast is taken into consideration?

 

263     MR. WONG:  Yes.  And maybe I'll ask Viddear Khan to give you the specific numbers for hours.  But the answer to your question is yes.  Viddear.

 

264     MS. KHAN:  Thanks, Glenn.  Madam Chair, there will be a total of five hours of South Asian daily news on block schedule, and this is in English.  This is counted as ethnic programming, not third language.

 

265     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, I understand.  My question was, inside the Chinese language newscasts, for example, there may be a certain amount of English spoken, yet from beginning to end that would fall into your third language programming?

 

266     MR. WONG:  Sorry.  There is no English in our Chinese news broadcasts.  The Mandarin ‑‑

 

267     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I get this idea from ‑‑ I believe I saw in your application when you discussed closed captioning that you'll close caption the English portion of third language programming?  Am I wrong?

 

268     MR. WONG:  Not for the news portion.  The news is entirely in third language.  There may be bullets in English, but the words are Chinese.

 

269     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Entirely?

 

270     MR. WONG:  Yes.

 

271     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And if they were not?

 

272     MR. SOLE:  Commissioner Wylie, you may be referring to the segments of the news where the topic or the people that are being interviewed are speaking English, for example, the Prime Minister.

 

273     THE CHAIRPERSON:  It will then be close captioned, if I recall.

 

274     MR. SOLE:  The closed captioning would still likely be in the language of origin, but the person speaking would be allowed to speak in the language they've spoken in.  On some occasions, if it's a long or a complicated passage, the newscaster and the writers will have a simultaneous translation over top of the person that's being interviewed.  But there is the presence of English in our newscasts as a result of the people that we cover.

 

275     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that would be true in -- you will have some South Asian news that will be in a South Asian language as well; am I not right?  There will be some that will be English and not counted in third language.  I've forgotten your name, madam, at the back.

 

276     MR. WONG:  Viddear.

 

277     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I interrupted you.  You understand now what I was asking was inside the newscasts if there is a fair amount of English.  But what you're saying is, in no case will it not be translated or text, so it will all be third language.

 

278     MR. SOLE:  It would be described as common currency that wouldn't be either text or captioned.

 

279     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that usually occurs because of the practicalities of it, not because part of the newscasts are intended to be in English?

 

280     MR. SOLE:  Yes.

 

281     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And I understand you saying there will be five hours of news directed to the South Asian community and therefore ethnic.  But I draw a difference, as we must from a regulatory perspective, between third language and ethnic programming, which may well be in the language of the mainstream.

 

282     Now, magazines.  There's almost 30 hours as well of magazine programming, and if we go back to this time the LLS marketing research, it would seem that in that research as well there was an expression of a desire for locally produced shows about local individuals, local topics that are relevant to the daily lives of that group in this particular community.

 

283     Yet, there will be some magazines that will come from CFMT.  If I look at your Schedule 17 at page 16 where you talk about Canadian acquired programming, there are some magazines here, for example Ukrainian, Greek, et cetera, of the smaller ethnocultural groups that perhaps would be difficult to serve from a practical perspective.

 

284     Would these count as local programming if they were produced by CFMT?  My question is, the programming that will come from CFMT, magazine programs which are listed here, would you calculate them as local?  They'll obviously be ethnic.  They may well be third language.  Will they be local?

 

285     MR. WONG:  We would not count those as local.  They would have, though, content from Vancouver, so this is one of the synergies that we can enjoy, that we would have programming produced at CFMT in Toronto that we would air on LMtv, but because we have a station, a bureau here, we'd be able to feed stories back to Toronto to include in that.

 

286     In two or three years, as LMtv matures, if we are successful in obtaining the license, I would fully expect that we would be exporting programs, if you will, to CFMT to Toronto from Vancouver.

 

287     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I've noticed that in a number of places, the positive of the synergies that can occur between the two.  But is there not a danger that, as this is put in place, which is obviously quite effective to lower costs because you can share and cover both antennas, that there will not be a disincentive to be very local so that you're more exportable?

 

288     MR. WONG:  I'll ask Madeline to maybe comment.  But before she does, one of the things that did come up in our research and every time we talk with people, is the need to have quality programming.  And they want to make sure that whatever they see is of the highest quality.  And so we believe that one of the solutions for that, to ensure great quality throughout our entire schedule, is to take advantage of programming that's available to us from CFMT in Toronto with come local content, because we can share stories back and forth, for small ‑‑ as you noted, Madam Chair, for smaller language groups here in the Lower Mainland.  And anecdotally, people here that have relatives in Toronto or have seen those specific programming, are very much in demand of that quality even locally, and it's important.  Madeline.

 

289     MS. ZINIAK:  I may add that although certainly local perspective and local stories are key, they're important, there are opportunities that actually CFMT-TV has utilized.  We've had a Vancouver bureau here the last two years and it has enabled us to cover important stories that are also important, for example, to the South Asian community.  The murder of Reena Virk.  We had a camera here.  This is a huge issue for the communities across Canada.  Although of course this was a local story, occurred locally, it had ramifications to people across Canada.  And this is where we're able to have impact in communities where we're able to include stories that are local but have ramifications to ethnocultural communities across Canada.

 

290     And certainly there are synergies.  There's hundreds of organizations that are national that have shared issues, and we like to include the different perspectives of ethnic groups across Canada, and this is one way that that has enabled us to do so.

 

291     So the answer is that although we do have CFMT-TV programs here, we have included Vancouver stories in the past that have been relevant to Ontario, but those are still not included as local for Vancouver but relevant to Ontario audiences.

 

292     MR. WONG:  Tony, would you like to comment as well perhaps?

 

293     MR. VINER:  I would just hate to leave the Commission with the impression somehow that because there are synergies that develop between our southern Ontario service and that for the Lower Mainland, that somehow decisions will be taken out of the market.  All of the editorial decisions, all of the hiring decisions, the B.C. production initiatives ‑‑ every single decision, and all the news decisions, as Maddie has pointed out, will be taken here in Vancouver.

 

294     We operate 30 different radio stations in a variety of markets.  And if you go to our radio station in Calgary, you'll find that it has local talent, it has its roots sunk deep into the community, it provides local PSAs and local fund-raising.  If you stopped people on the street, they'd tell you it was absolutely a local station regardless of where the head office was.

 

295     So yes, there are synergies.  As Madeline and Glenn have said, the CFMT programming that's on the schedule is provided for those groups who could not otherwise sustain a program.  They're not counted as part of our local commitment.

 

296     We couldn't get Glenn to take this job if were going to somehow operate it by remote control.

 

297     But apart from that, it's just not good business.  You have to be local and reflect the local reality in order for this station to be successful.

 

298     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I understand, Mr. Viner.  I was focusing on a very small part, the magazine part, in the context of my initial statement that we may discuss at the end of this whether the local orientation is something that you should be somehow bound by considering the research you've done yourself and the position you've taken as to what your proposal is.

 

299     And so I'm looking at little parts.  I understand that there's a whole lot more, but now we're focusing on the magazine and I'm curious to know whether this 8.5 hours of material coming from CFMT will originally, I gather ‑‑ the first year at least, will be coming from CFMT and produced there, because I understand from your application that it's only within two to three years of operation that you expect to exchange as much, as many hours one from the other.

 

300     Now, is it because, for example, there is a bigger Greek community in Toronto or a bigger Macedonian community in Toronto, or is it because although you hit the ground running, you won't be able to do everything here as quickly as ‑‑ or provided as quickly as getting it from Toronto.  I was focusing on those hours of mostly, I guess, magazine programming ‑‑ wouldn't it be, the 8.5 hours? ‑‑ to the smaller communities.  What attempt will you make in particular for the ones that are mentioned?  I remember Greek, Macedonian, Ukrainian as well, I think.  What effort will you make to substitute then more emphasis coming from here in the coming years?

 

301     MR. WONG:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  First of all, the 8.5 yours that you referred to, we don't consider them local.  I think that editorially we can still get Vancouver content in them, but we're not counting them as local content on the 8.5 hours of magazine shows that you pointed to.

 

302     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Excluded from the hours that will be local if one were to establish some type of mechanism to calculate local?

 

303     MR. WONG:  That is correct.  I was referring more from an editorial standpoint.  And you're absolutely right, these are groups that are larger in Toronto than they are here, so the opportunity to bring that programming back to smaller groups here that otherwise wouldn't have it, we thought was a good thing to do.

 

304     And you mentioned as we continue to mature as a station and sending more programming back to Toronto, one of the things is we are offering seven languages in our schedule that are not on the CFMT schedule, and those again are prime opportunities for LMtv to provide programming to CFMT, those being Tamil, Punjabi, Gujarati, Hindi, Urdu, Dutch and German.  So those are languages that we will have on our schedule here in Vancouver, so to your point about the benefits we can have of providing those seven additional languages and being able to focus on those while taking eight and a half hours from Toronto for smaller groups here, as you pointed out, that is exactly what we're doing.

 

305     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And how would you choose, especially in year one when there isn't yet this exchange?  How would you choose the programs that you would export into Vancouver?  I gather that the exchange will grow.  What is it?  It'll grow to an equal amount by year three?

 

306     MR. WONG:  Well, not that I'm competitive, but I would think we would have more.  I wouldn't want that necessarily on the record.

 

307     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Why not?  Sounds good to me.

 

308     MR. WONG:  Because I'm sitting beside the station manager.          Well, because we've got an advantage now because we are offering more languages, which is the seven that I said that we have that aren't in Toronto.  I can see the day within three years where ‑‑ and I don't know if it would be balanced.  I don't know if it would be 50/50.  What's really important is to reflect the local communities and different ethnic groups and how they're made up.

 

309     So for instance, we have, that would come from Toronto, Greek, Portuguese, Macedonian, Italian and Ukrainian.  The ethnocultural groups certainly exist here, but as you've noted, they're not as big here as they would be in Toronto.

 

310     THE CHAIRPERSON:  It's also of interest to me to look at how this will work financially because if you put forward synergy as an important component, it's a natural reaction for us regulators to say, well, if you have all these advantages, we'll expect more.  I'm looking at your Schedule 9 at page 8, and I believe that's where I found this quote, which says that:

 

With two ethnic TV stations, local communities served by CFMT and LMtv will reap the benefits from local programming arrangements.

 

311     So that's what you discuss.  And in your deficiency response, the first letter at page 4, you state, and you repeated again this morning that within the initial two to three years, you expect to be in a position to migrate an equivalent 8.5 hours portion of your programming schedule to CFMT.

 

312     And in Schedule 17 at page 54, those programs are shown as Canadian acquired with funding from CFMT.  And in your supplementary brief, at page 22, you say, "LMtv will exchange programming with CFMT at no cost."  I'd like to know, when I look at your financial projections, whether there's any accounting shown here as to the financial benefit of possibly making a program in Vancouver and showing it on two stations and vice versa.  Or is the cost of making this program in your programming expenses all there?  Or is there an accounting showing that in year one, for example, you'll be getting 8.5 hours from CFMT, at no cost, I gather.  How does the accounting of this arrangement work when we look at your Canadian programming expenses?  And I relate again to the fact that it's put under Canadian acquired in your schedule.

 

313     MR. WONG:  I'll ask Tony to maybe comment about some of the synergies in the accounting of it.  But to your point, Madam Chair --

 

314     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And I'm talking here not of the foreign programming.  We can talk about that later.  Just of this exchange with CFMT.  How is that reflected in your programming expenses?

 

315     MR. VINER:  Madam Chair, just to be clear, they are at no charge.  There is therefore no charge taken in the LMtv accounting, which just leaves us more money to spend on locally produced programming.  So it's eight and a half hours.  It costs money for CFMT to produce that, but there is no charge.  We're not double accounting.  It's Canadian acquired, I guess.  We've categorized it as Canadian acquired because it is acquired but it is not original.  But it's at zero cost.  So we think the synergy is that the station can devote the available resources to the production of Canadian local programming because it's not getting charged for approximately eight and a half hours of programming from Toronto.

 

316     Similarly, if there is ‑‑ Glenn believes absolutely there will be a more significant program exchange going from west to east, and I'm sure he's right.  But the expenses for producing that programming will be in Vancouver, and then they will be provided to Toronto.  Will they be provided at no charge?  That'll be a negotiation, I'm sure, between Mr. Sole and Mr. Wong.

 

317     But for the purposes of this application, any programming coming from east to west will not be charged.

 

318     MR. WONG:  And Madam Chair, you had asked ‑‑ and I had to think about this earlier when we were putting this all together and trying to figure out the exchange of programs and the accounting and who benefits and where it all comes out.  My conclusion in the end is it's how through those synergies we're able to offer the B.C. Independent Producers Initiative for $27 million and how we're able to give back the $30 million back into the system.  Those are the synergies -- and not just this one in particular and eight and a half hours of programming, but that's how we've been able to do it.

 

319     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Wong, I think I heard you say that these eight and a half hours coming from CFMT will not be counted as local magazine.  And can I assume that the programming that is produced here by LMtv in years two, three and beyond, intended for exchange, will not be local either?

 

320     MR. WONG:  Not local for Toronto.  Local for here.

 

321     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Why would they be local for here if they're intended for ‑‑ let me rephrase this.  Is it not possible that they'll be less than local if they're intended for exchange, that those programs that you will produce in Vancouver for sharing with CFMT will not be intensely local?

 

322     MR. WONG:  Well, I think there's ‑‑

 

323     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm asking the question because you immediately said that the eight and a half hours of CFMT coming to Vancouver would not be local to here.  Why would the ones that you produce here be local even if there's an exchange intended?

 

324     MR. WONG:  What I'm meaning is that what would be defined under local hours produced in Toronto, the eight and a half hours that's coming here, I'm not considering those as in our local hours for LMtv.  However, the languages or the production two or three years from now that LMtv would produce locally and share in Toronto, we would consider that local in Vancouver.  I'm just saying in Toronto it wouldn't be considered local.

 

325     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are we not going back to a definition of local according to where it's produced and by whom rather than the theme of it?

 

326     MR. WONG:  I think we are.  And we're just trying to be consistent.  If that eight and a half hours that we're currently showing is produced in Toronto and is shown in Vancouver, we're not considering that local to Vancouver.

 

327     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Even if it just so happened that the Toronto producer had some interest in an issue occurring in Vancouver?

 

328     MR. WONG:  This is the editorial or the content side. 

 

329     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, that's my question.  If I were to try to find a way of testing whether your initial view that you're providing a local station is what you'll provide, and I was trying to find measures to calculate that and hold you to it, what would be the test?  And now we're getting confusion as to where it's produced as opposed to the theme.  And I thought you told me earlier it was the theme or the perspective that counts.  And of course, it's legitimate then to raise the question, if you intend it for somewhere else, will you hold to the local perspective?

 

330     MS. ZINIAK:  If I just may add as far as the content goes, the product will not be less local because of the possibility of the exchange.  For example, if indeed Glenn decides that New Monday, which is a program for South Asian women in Vancouver, produced in Vancouver with issues and perhaps services that are available to women in Vancouver, is available for CFMT-TV, the content would not change, but I am sure that the issues discussed on this program would certainly be of interest to those in southern Ontario.  So I do not think that the content would be less local in any way.

 

331     Notwithstanding that, I do think there are issues that bind, not only women but certainly ethnocultural communities, and I know with the programs that we've tested here in Vancouver, they were produced in Toronto but the focus group said yes, that's the kind of material we would like.

 

332     And certainly when you get into news programming, there's local news, there's national news, and there's also international news which has relevance specifically to the local community, but of course can be of great interest to the community in Ontario.

 

333     MR. WONG:  I'm sorry, your question is what's the best way to define local in production and what isn't ‑‑ I'm just trying to be consistent ‑‑ in our schedule?

 

334     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  And there are two issues really.  One is the programming.  When you say I'll do 60 plus hours, 67, 65 of local programming, what have we got there and how local is it?  One could say it depends on where it's produced, which you always end up saying, although at the beginning you say it's by perspective or theme, the most difficult test of course to apply.  Is it because it's produced in house?  We discussed news.  That makes it local.  Then we will now discuss your commitment to the local independent production, and again, the same question arises.  What is local?  You could have a local producer who produces programming that is not local.  We've been through these discussions about Canadian programming, and that's what I'm trying to explore.

 

335     I think you've been quite clear about the news and the reasons why from beginning to end.  You can say that's a locally produced program, which is half of your hours.  So then I look at magazines and I say well, synergies are a great thing.  Does it affect local?  How would one calculate whether you are producing 60 hours, or broadcasting 60 hours of local?  So they're not easy answers.

 

336     But when we have competitive applications, you do research that throws up the need for a local station that offers something relevant to the community, then I think it's fair to test your proposal against the research, which is supposed to tell you what the community wants, and what you say you will provide.  So that's the perspective.

 

337     But I agree, it's not easy.  I'm just trying to get from you more information on how you will do it.  And then at the end of the day, is there a need to test it, and if so, what are the mechanisms that make sense for testing it?

 

338     MR. WONG:  And Madam Chair, I guess what I would simply state is that we try to be conservative, and it is a topic of how to define what is local and what is not, as you've quite clearly laid out.

 

339     What we've tried to do is be conservative and say if it's produced in Vancouver, it's local for the purposes of the schedule.  That's why the eight and a half hours that I was referring to from Toronto, I didn't consider that as part of my local schedule.  So that's on the being conservative in where it's produced side of the ledger.

 

340     On the other side of the ledger, which is the discussion point is editorially, if it's produced in Vancouver but we took a story relevant to the Punjabi community here but it was a story out of Toronto, does that change it?   Well, another discussion.  But what we've tried to reflect is to be conservative by saying if it's produced in Vancouver, it's local.

 

341     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Legal counsel may come back to that, but I referred you earlier and said I would wait until we'd had this discussion before you barge in and offer 80 hours.  At your executive summary, at page 4, the bottom of the page, I referred earlier to what appears to be the crucial or core components of your commitments, and the very first one is 60 hours of locally produced programming, of which 30 hours will be new and original.

 

342     You said 65 this morning. 

 

343     I think we can calculate from you Schedule 17, the grid, as much as I believe ‑‑ I didn't do the calculation but someone did it, and apparently 67.5 hours.  What is your reaction to the Commission imposing that as a condition of license, and if so, what would be your commitment in hours?

 

344     MR. VINER:  (A), I think it's appropriate for the Commission, if they wish, to set that as a commitment, and we would agree to commit to the 60 hours of local programming.

 

345     THE CHAIRPERSON:  With 30 original?

 

346     MR. VINER:  That's correct.

 

347     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And it would allow you presumably to withstand a more severe test if we were to apply it to 67.5 hours.

 

348     Let's talk about your commitment to, again, local independent production, and the same question will arise of course.  What is a local producer?  Is it Vancouver, the Great Vancouver area, the Lower Mainland, all of B.C.?  Your two initiatives are the Local Community Producers Showcase and the B.C. Producers Initiative.  So I gather the second commitment, it's anyone from B.C. who may get some money from that $24 million fund, and possibly script and concept development, the $4 million as well.

 

349     With regard to the Local Community Producers Showcase, which will provide 14 hours a week, of which four will be original, what is your definition of local in that case?

 

350     MR. WONG:  These ones may be a bit easier in that they are local producers.  As you noted in our B.C. Producers Independent Producers Initiative, the producer has to be B.C. based.

 

351     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  So local is all of the province, then, the same as with the B.C. Producers Initiative?

 

352     MR. WONG:  Yes.           

 

353     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So for the Local Community Producers Showcase, you could be from Vernon or Kelowna?

 

354     MR. WONG:  Yes.

 

355     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that would be local to the Greater Vancouver area where your station is?

 

356     MR. WONG:  That is correct.  We would expect this to be reflecting the local communities, but we'd include Vernon in that, sure.

 

357     THE CHAIRPERSON:  The local in this case is the province, then?

 

358     MR. WONG:  Yes.

 

359     MS. ZINIAK:  If I just may add, the Community Producers Showcase is an opportunity for a grassroots producer.  Presently we have 11 independent producers of smaller ethnocultural communities in Toronto, and our intent is to give an opportunity to those smaller communities.  This could be a 52-week series or it could be a 13-week series.  It could be a news magazine program or a thematic program.  The community can define by itself.  The independent producer will define what they feel their capabilities are, and this is a very good opportunity to test even a smaller group and to develop production skills from that community.

 

360     So just to define it, the Community Producers Showcase is for new producers, independent producers, very grassroots producers.

 

361     THE CHAIRPERSON:  We'll discuss a little what your relationship will be with these producers, so-called associates.  But you say grassroots et cetera.  So it will not be -- I had understood that it would be to serve the smaller ethnocultural groups.  But do I understand that it's more the lack of expertise and sophistication of the producer rather than the size of the community that producer reflects, so to speak, if we talk about language or cultural background?

 

362     MR. WONG:  Madam Chair, it could be either of those.  When we designed the Community Producers Showcase, it was really to try to be inclusive.  So rather than having a community and having to have a production and a producer that could commit to a regular slot in the schedule, we thought that if we had a regular band on a daily basis that we could allow community access, if you will, to LMtv, that we could incorporate this way.  So maybe because it's a small group -- I wouldn't want to say it's because the producer's talent may not be there, because we've had four roundtables starting in May with the independent producer community here, and I can tell you from my previous experience with this group, there's a phenomenal wealth of expertise out there.  So what we wanted to do was give them an opportunity to air community shows.  So it is reflecting both in some cases community groups and producers with maybe less resources that we could support.

 

363     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And those producers with less resources could be from the larger cultural groups, such as the Chinese and the South Asian?

 

364     MR. WONG:  They could be.  That's possible.

 

365     THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you were ‑‑ I don't want to encroach on the intervention period, but if you were already providing some services in the market, wouldn't that be a source of concern that these 14 hours could become majority -- the Chinese and the South Asians, and therefore increase dramatically the third language programming directed to these communities at the expense, we'll be told, I'm sure, of those who are already providing service to the Chinese and the South Asian community.  In other words, could it be that given the very large groups to whom I believe you will offer a great number of hours of programming, could also be increased via this showcase?

 

366     MR. WONG:  I wouldn't want to exclude any language group from the Community Producers Showcase.  So yes, it could go towards more, let's say, Cantonese programming.  But it's not meant that way.  And Mason can maybe talk about some of the community groups that we have consulted with and the commitment that we've made to them about making sure that they'll have a voice and that they will have programming.  And after eight years of discussions with them, we obviously will stay true to that commitment that we've made to them.

 

367     So it's meant to allow the smaller language groups to have that kind of access.  It's not meant to ‑‑ we're very comfortable with our South Asian and our Chinese programming, for instance.  It would be nice obviously to do more for everybody, but we are broadcasting in 24 languages, as you can see in the schedule.  The Community Producers Showcase would give us an opportunity to go beyond the 24, again for some of the smaller language groups that wouldn't or couldn't muster up enough resources for a regular time slot.   This is an opportunity to at least provide them with some programming.

 

368     THE CHAIRPERSON:  If this works very well, of course, you could easily see the Chinese community and South Asian community saying, "We want in on this too because this is great," and increase thereby the number of hours that you're offering to these larger communities.  And it raises the question, of course, which we'll address perhaps later as to whether there would be a need for the Commission to ensure that the two major language groups are not provided with more hours of programming than you propose, to make sure that the showcases are kept to the smaller groups.

 

369     MS. ZINIAK:  If I may add, the intent was quite focused, and that was to give opportunities to emerging communities to develop talent and to gain experience.  However, if from some of the other communities such as Cantonese, Mandarin or South Asian, if there is a different proposal, different genre ‑‑ for example, if there is a proposal ‑‑ and we look forward to it ‑‑ let's say of a 13-part children's series in Mandarin which presently perhaps we're not doing, we would like to consider that, because it's a different genre.

 

370     So I think that's one of the things that we'd be looking at, that it actually complements the schedule and it's something different than something that's already existing on the schedule.

 

371     THE CHAIRPERSON:  But you're not interested in pursuing the idea of limiting the number of hours offered to the two largest communities?  Anyway, we'll have an opportunity.  I'm sure we'll hear an intervention and you'll be back in reply as to the validity of that need, considering that there's a fair amount of flexibility there, and realities over a seven-year period can have an incentive to thwart or at least moderate or temper what was proposed at the beginning, unless there is a definite mechanism to bind you to what may be seen as the mechanisms that are required to keep you to your proposal.

 

372     Now, we are interested in the relationship you'll have with these producers which you refer to as associates in Section 18.  But these productions in Section 17 ‑‑ no, Schedule 17 rather, at page 15, are called co-productions.  So I'd like to understand better what the relationship will be.  You specified that it won't be brokered time, but what will be the actual financial relationship with these people and who will have the rights to the programming?  We'll discuss later on your second proposal, the B.C. Producers Initiative.  It's quite clear that the rights will stay with the producer.  What will happen in this case?  Although these showcases are intended to be less expert probably, some of them may indeed surprise all of us.  What will be the financial relationship?  Will you provide not only the expertise, the help, the workshops ‑‑ I've read all that ‑‑ but also all the money that is required to put those together and will that property be yours, then?  For example, why not have some on CFMT in some cases?  I'm sure some of them will be of an entertainment value, et cetera.

 

373     MR. WONG:  The independent producer will retain the rights to the programming.  The financial arrangement is --

 

374     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Let's call them associates so we don't mix it with the other component of your independent production.

 

375     MR. WONG:  Thank you for the clarification.  The associates would retain 75 percent of the advertising inventory, so they could then go out and sell 75 percent of the advertising.

 

376     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it would be more similar to a brokered arrangement.  Why do you insist that it's not brokering?

 

377     MR. WONG:  Because --

 

378     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Because ‑‑ oh, okay.  I hear you.

 

379     MR. WONG:  There's --

 

380     MR. VINER:  You didn't answer.

 

381     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm sure you'll explain that you're providing work and you're providing information and you're helping them, et cetera, which is not always the case with brokering.

 

382     MR. WONG:  That's part of it.

 

383     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I take it back.

 

384     MR. WONG:  That's part of it.  The other issue around brokering out, though ‑‑ and this is really something we've heard from the communities ‑‑ is that in the brokering out model, where one producer, I'll say, buys that time and airs what they want, they get their views or their friends' views or a particular view and they own that time, and the rest of that community is shut out of having a voice.  And that's why we're adamant about brokering out is not the model.

 

385     I do have some previous experience of this when I was ‑- having worked with other independent producers and having talked to them, that that model to us isn't fair to the rest of the community.  And as I said earlier on in my comments, the ethnocultural groups are quite diverse.  As well, there isn't the same sort of financial risk associated with it.

 

386     THE CHAIRPERSON:  That sounds good, but how will you know whether it's not their friends if LMtv doesn't have a person speaking that language?

 

387     MR. WONG:  We have -- and this is again where experience and expertise come in.  We have a local advisory board and we'll have one in place that will be in constant contact with the community.  And given our relationships with them, I expect that I'm on a number of speed dials as we speak.  So I think the communities will very clearly let us know whether or not what is being aired is fair and balanced.

 

388     The other thing ‑- and again, let me talk about track records for a second.  At CFMT in Toronto there's 183 employees.  Ninety percent of them are ethnic.  And LMtv will be, if not 90 percent, maybe higher.  And so the station will be made up of the very community groups we are seeking to serve, and that's one of the best ways, we believe, by having our own staff from the communities and speaking that language, to be able to monitor and ensure that the programming ‑‑

 

389     MS. ZINIAK:  If I may add also, there is a specific position, the independent production coordinator for the associate producers, the associates, is there specifically to work with the associates, there to actually fulfil their needs.  There are production needs.  There are facility needs.  He or she will work together with these producers to get better quality of programming. 

 

390     And secondly, as (technical difficulties / difficultés techniques)

 

391     MS. ZINIAK: ... and we have feedback mechanisms in place that will deal with that kind of feedback.  So those are the checks and balances as well as the checks and balances that we have within the station.

 

392     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I leave to Commissioner Cardozo to discuss with you later what indeed you intend by the procedure for choosing programming and that you will rely on the appropriate member of the LMtv local advisory board in that procedure.

 

393     Now, the procedure that you outline in a fair amount of detail in your application, does it apply to both the B.C. Producers Initiative and the showcase for the choice of programming?  The procedure to ensure that you've got balance and that you reach your goals.

 

394     MR. WONG:  Yes.  There will be a written policy that will be published for all concerned parties so that everyone knows how it will be selected.  I can't help but continue to refer to our local advisory board and how instrumental they will be in making sure that that balance in the community is maintained.

 

395     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will you also have regard to the ability of that producer to actually get revenue from his 75 percent share and you from your 25?

 

396     MR. WONG:  Will they enjoy synergies from us?  Yes, we'll have our own sales team here.

 

397     THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, I meant more in the choice.  If you have a number of proposals, I don't know how many, and you're choosing which ones will actually produce for you as an associate once they've pitched a proposal, will ‑‑ well, we discussed a bit earlier.  Will the balance in languages be an issue?  Will the ability of that producer and you to recoup some of your costs be taken into consideration as well, because the incentive would be to pitch it to the larger communities from which it may be a little easier to sell air time in the program.

 

398     MS. ZINIAK:  Yes.  We have found that usually, especially in the emerging communities, because it is a labour of love initially for that producer, they have the contacts in the communities and it's usually the retail base or other entities that want to support their producer and it's that producer that knows best those contacts.  And we have found that that is something that does work.

 

399     However, that's not the only factor that we consider in choosing those producers.  We certainly look at size and we certainly look at the expressed community interest or the need for that community.  Will they have numbers?  Will they have an audience? 

 

400     We also look at trends such as is the community growing or declining?  Is it projected to increase?  And what is the age of that community?  Is it a first generation or second generation?  We certainly look at the demographics.  We look at the size of the population and the make-up of the population.

 

401     And also of course, most importantly, is language, language retention.  Does the group retain their language and need the language for information purposes?  And certainly the availability of talent.  Are there journalists, producers, television experts who we know are out there who've had tremendous challenges in getting jobs in Canada?  Perhaps they have learned their professions elsewhere in the world.  Also we know there are emerging journalists who have learned the television trade in schools here and who have a particular interest in their own community, who've had a difficulty also in accessing -- working at a television station.

 

402     So we look at all of these elements and they don't work in an isolated fashion.  They work together.  And also of course we look at links to the homeland in the sense that are there information needs from the homeland.

 

403     So these are the criteria that we look at that work together when we consider choosing these emerging communities.  But the community has to come forward and the producers have to come forward with this express need and desire to do television and to communicate using television.

 

404     THE CHAIRPERSON:  If I look at your programming expenses and your financial projections, would I be right in finding there -- I'm not quite sure under what line ‑‑ these showcase expenses with associates?  The complete cost of producing this program is here?  And then in the revenues would be what you think you will be able to -- the 25 percent, the amount from the 25 percent that you'll be able to recoup.

 

405     MR. VINER:  The answer to both those questions is yes.  The cost of production is in there and the 25 percent, if we're able to recoup it.

 

406     Madam Chair, I understand the Commission's dilemma with respect to this issue of whether or not it might over time morph into another several hours for the larger groups.  Overwhelmingly, our experience, and the purpose for which we advanced this proposal, was to ensure that new producers without the resources, many of them from the smaller communities, have access to the system.  They don't have to go out and buy an hour of time and put themselves at financial risk, which many of them will tell you is a tremendous strain on them.

 

407     I understand, though, what your dilemma is.  And where we would be comfortable, where the Commission and ourselves could be congruent, is if we could reach some sort of an agreement on the kinds of people that we would place on this, as opposed to language, but where they are in the development process.  That may not be a useful offer, but that's the intention, that this gives a leg up to new producers.

 

408     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, that would not be easy for me to decide where a producer is in his development or her development.  But I am sure there are undeveloped Chinese producers and undeveloped Punjabi producers.  The question becomes here how much Punjabi and how much Chinese may end up on the screen over and above the news and what you've produced via this showcase, is more the question.

 

409     MR. VINER:  I understand the dilemma.

 

410     THE CHAIRPERSON:  In what language will it be?  It could be an undeveloped Chinese producer, but it'll end up still not appealing to the Macedonians, presumably.

 

411     MR. VINER:  I understand the dilemma perfectly.  And equally I'm sure it's difficult for the Commission to want to put constraints and to --

 

412     THE CHAIRPERSON:  But we love constraints, Mr. Viner.

 

413     MR. VINER:  -- and to reduce the flexibility of a local station to change its schedule over seven years.  It must be difficult.

 

414     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I suppose if I looked at your programming expenses, I would find some of this money in line 8 and possibly some in line 3 under programming expenses, 4.2, where game shows or the human interest, et cetera, entertainment magazine, and possibly could be under information as well, a line which is not news, right?  But all these expenses would be there?

 

415     MR. VINER:  Yes.  Yes.

 

416     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, the B.C. Producers Initiative, which is for drama and documentaries, and that, if I understand, is a $27 million commitment, $4 million of which would go for script and concept development and $23 million to producers with a minimum of $3.5 million per year and a minimum of 10 of these produced per year and 167 over seven years, right?

 

417     MR. WONG:  Yes.

 

418     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, at page 14, revised, in your supplementary brief, you talk about direct costs for these programs.  What is intended here?  The 3.5 million presumably will go to 10 projects minimum, so I would say then that 3.5 million roughly divided by 10 for the direct costs.  What exactly will this money go to?

 

419     MR. WONG:  That amount is for script development, and I'd ask Robin Mirsky to maybe walk us through the various specifics of it.  And then the balance of it --

 

420     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Don't think so.  I'm talking about the 27 million.  If I understand, you are committing to spend no less than 3.5 million in any given year for a minimum of no less than 10 of these documentaries or dramas in one year to add up to 165 of them in seven years.  Presumably the commitment is so that one year you don't do any at all.  So then, if I look at minimum of 3.5 million, minimum of 10, and you speak of the money going for the direct costs of these ‑‑ so 3.5 million divided by 10 would be the direct cost.  What will it cover?  All of the production?  What will it cover?  Or is it an amount of money you'll give to a producer and expect that a drama or a documentary, how long, what quality?  How will this work?

 

421     MR. WONG:  Madam Chair, I'll ask Robin Mirsky to take us through the details.  They ‑‑

 

422     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are we in agreement, Mr. Wong, now that what I'm saying is correct?

 

423     MR. WONG:  Yes, I --

 

424     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Because I think the other is ‑‑ for script and concept development is 40 projects, right, each year for a total of 280 in seven years, which will be an entirely different use of money, 4 million over the entire seven years.  Is that okay?

 

425     MR. WONG:  Yes.  Robin.

 

426     MS. MIRSKY:  Good morning.  I just want to clarify one thing.  The brief says a minimum of 10, but it's actually 10 documentaries and 10 dramas a year, so it's a minimum of 20.  So the $3.5 million will be split between development and license fees, so that essentially, if you take the $4 million and divide it over the seven-year license term, it's about an average of $570,000 a year for development.  The balance will be paid to producers in the form of a license fee to produce this minimum of 20 dramas or documentaries every year, with average license fees of between 125 and 150 thousand dollars.  That license fee is designed to pay for the whole cost of production, because in our research and talking to the industry, we discovered that there is no money available for third language production.  So we are essentially paying for these productions in full.

 

427     THE CHAIRPERSON:  But in total, that producer -- so it's 3.5 million divided by 20 actually, right?

 

428     MS. MIRSKY:  Yes.

 

429     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And drama is expensive.  Programming -- do I understand that the producer will not be expected then to supplement this money by whatever means, leverage, since he or she will have the rights at the end of the day, or are you expecting this money will be sufficient to cover quality programming in that amount per year?

 

430     MS. MIRSKY:  We don't expect producers to go out and look for other sources of financing.  It's great if they do but we do understand that for third language programming it's extremely difficult to do it.  We created these license fees to cover the cost of a production, either a small documentary or a small one-off drama, keeping in mind that CFMT in Toronto has agreed to license these projects as well with a fair market value license fee of between 10 to 20 thousand dollars.

 

431     So with a budget of anywhere from 125 to 170 thousand dollars, we felt that a one-off documentary or drama, producers could come up with a quality production.  That was a sufficient budget for a quality production.

 

432     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it's 20 per year, and yet on your schedule you only have one hour a week devoted to showing these.  What happens to the other ones?

 

433     MS. MIRSKY:  Well, it's an hour a week and the projects can be anywhere from half an hour to an hour.  So in any given week we could air one one-hour program or two half-hour programs.

 

434     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And again, in your Schedule 17 at page 15, you have those under co-productions, so I'm not to read anything in there.  All the money will come from LMtv.

 

435     MS. MIRSKY:  Yes, cash license fees from LMtv.

 

436     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And the producer will retain the rights.  Are you expecting some of these programs may reach a level of quality that it could be sold to CFMT?  I think there's reference to that.  Or even sold somewhere else?

 

437     MR. WONG:  There is provision for CFMT to pay an additional license fee on top of that.  As well, with some of the --

 

438     THE CHAIRPERSON:  But that's only ones it's produced.

 

439     MR. WONG:  That's correct.

 

440     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So if you're right that the independent producer for third language programming can't easily -- I suppose there's nothing that prevents them from borrowing money and adding it to the amount that you give, is there?

 

441     MR. WONG:  There isn't at all.  Madam Chair, I think one of the things I might add in from the --

 

442     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Or the producer may have money and not need to borrow.

 

443     MR. WONG:  You know, they may.  But I will tell you, I met with over 150 independent producers in our roundtable discussions here in Vancouver and I asked the same question.  I said, you know, "125,000, 150,000, is that a lot of money?  What's that going to get you done?"  And the answer was, "We have no sources of funding.  There's nothing available to us."  And there was a women who for seven years has been trying to do a documentary on four and a half billion Chinese that have had their feet bound, in the history of China, and she's living below the poverty line.  And so for her, $125,000 would more than finish this project.

 

444     And so I think in the mainstream world maybe, we judge production values by how much money gets put into it.  And I want to put a perspective on this that there are no sources of funding for these independent producers right now out of their personal savings, or yes, they could go out and borrow.  So $125,000 probably wouldn't work for Steven Spielberg, but for a lot of these producers that are struggling now to find that first nickel, $125,000 from LMtv, 10 to 20 thousand dollars in a CFMT licensing fee, and the opportunity to sell it to other services, some of the new ethnic digital services ‑‑ this becomes a fairly exciting proposition to be able to create this industry and this production locally here in British Columbia for the independent ethnic producers.

 

445     So I just wanted to add that perspective about the quality and the amount of money.

 

446     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms. Mirsky, I haven't quite understood how 20 a year will be shown with one hour in your schedule.

 

447     MR. MIRSKY:  It's an hour every week, it's a 52-week year, and as I said, it could be two half-hour projects every week or it would be a one-hour.  So over the course of a 52-week year, there's ample opportunity for the regular scheduled programs.  And I also wanted to add that the CFMT license fee is guaranteed and it's a pre-buy, so a producer could take that into account in their production budget when they're financing their project.

 

448     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Why is it that, I think in Schedule 17, you say -- I think it's page 16 or 15 ‑‑ you say in that slot that it'll be either ‑‑ yes, it's page ‑‑ where did I see that?  It says somewhere that in that slot you would have programming ‑‑ oh, yes.  It is page 15:  "B.C. Independent Producers Initiative or other ethnic programming."  That's if you don't want to repeat those and you run out?

 

449     MS. MIRSKY:  Yes.

 

450     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So other programming could fill in that slot, which is what, seven o'clock on Sundays, right?

 

451     MR. WONG:  Yes.

 

452     MS. MIRSKY:  We also have the occasion often to produce specials based on what's happening in the community, and often we're in the position to of course pre-empt regularly scheduled programming.  So our hope is that this is a wonderful time, Sunday evening, so any of our specials that we produce that we know LMtv will, this will be a wonderful platform for those specials.

 

453     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, you talk about ‑‑ again, that will come up in intervention obviously.  But you talk about perhaps less experienced producers.  Could some of them come from the Shaw Multicultural Channel?

 

454     MR. WONG:  Yes.  And in fact, several of the current Shaw Multicultural Channel producers have talked to us and we'd be pleased to work with them.

 

455     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, the 4 million that will go to script and concept development, how will that money be dispensed?  I guess it'll be a minimum of 40 projects a year, I think we agree, Mr. Wong?

 

456     MR. WONG:  That is correct.

 

457     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And 4 million over seven years.

 

458     MR. WONG:  That's correct.  It's script development money and for concepts.  It's to help get a good start on the projects, and if you need more detail, Robin Mirsky can take you through that in detail.  But it is important to us to encourage that production and take that first step through script and concept development.

 

459     THE CHAIRPERSON:  As usual, some of this money may not turn up into programming in any way and it will have nothing to do with the license fee or broadcasting.  It will simply be the very first level of projects?

 

460     MR. WONG:  That's correct.  And it is a distinct money.  It is managed by our local ‑‑ in fact, Wai Young, this will be her job.  So I hope we get something out of the $4 million.  But it's development, so maybe not all of it.

 

461     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, the money related to that, in your supplementary brief at page 24, revised, you have a list there of how the 30 million you speak about is calculated, and it adds up to 30 million.  You mentioned a number of these things this morning.  It adds up to 30 million, 27 million for the Producers Initiative, 4 million for script and concept development and a number of projects.  Every time I calculate it I come to 30 million except when I look at your financials.  It's not a big deal, but there is a million missing.  I just want to understand -- a million over seven years, Mr. Viner.

 

462     MR. VINER:  It may not be much to you, Madam Chair.

 

463     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I thought it would be your comment.  What are you talking about?

 

464     MR. VINER:  No, no.  Not at all.

 

465     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Not worth our time.

 

466     MR. VINER:  No, not at all.  Can I clarify?

 

467     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Let's look at the 4.2, programming expenses.  The top from 1 to 12 are your total Canadian programming expenses, which add up to over seven years, 50.5 million or 54.70.  Okay, now, I go down to 16, script and concept development and other programming and community initiatives.  So the 25 plus 4 adds to 29.  Shouldn't it be 30?

 

468     MR. VINER:  If I can provide some clarification.  The $30 million is a commitment to the B.C. Producers Initiative.  And the other ‑‑

 

469     THE CHAIRPERSON:  The PSAs and the scholarships and the whole --

 

470     MR. VINER:  Sorry.  All of it, you're right.

 

471     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Three million sounds good.

 

472     MR. VINER:  Three million sounds good.

 

473     THE CHAIRPERSON:  It would add ‑‑ no, no, no.  But if you want to put it all in ‑‑

 

474     MR. VINER:  Oh, yes.  Thank you very much.  Thank you so much.

 

475     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You better mind your p's and q's.

 

476     MR. VINER:  My apologies, Madam Chair.  What we have done is we have the full commitment to the licensing under the 27 million which is the 23 and 4, under the B.C. Producers Initiative.  We are mindful that the Commission from time to time has tried to determine the level of spending which is incremental versus that which might normally be expected.  So we have earmarked a million of the 27 towards regular programming expenses to license Canadian third language programming under the same terms and conditions or under the terms and conditions and as part of the B.C. initiative, but that's where the difference arises.  Have I made myself clear?

 

477     THE CHAIRPERSON:  No.  Look at the page.  You find under script and concept development 4 million, and other programming and community initiatives, 25.  Should it not add up to 30?  Because if you speak of the 27 million, it's in there too, isn't it?

 

478     MR. VINER:  No, 26 of the 27 is in there, but one of it is back in the regular ‑‑

 

479     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ah, okay.

 

480     MR. VINER:  You know, this is the incremental issue?

 

481     THE CHAIRPERSON:  For a million that's enough answer.

 

482     MR. VINER:  Thank you.  Do you think it was worth a million dollars?  It was a million dollar answer, Madam Chair?

 

483     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have a few more questions.  Are you so tired that you'd like a break?  What about my colleagues?  Yes.  You're just so interesting and it's taking longer than I thought.  We must all do as well as we can in going through your applications.  We will take a ten-minute break but I'll be right back here with my mike on in ten minutes.

 

--- Upon recessing at 1145 / Suspension à 1145

 

--- Upon resuming at 1157 / Reprise à 1157

 

484     THE CHAIRPERSON:  There's one question I forgot to ask you.  We thought we shouldn't spend more than 10 minutes over a million, but there's two pages, or at least two places in your application at page 52 of Schedule 17, and page 5 of your first deficiency letter, where we talk about 15 million to B.C. Independent Producers Initiative, instead of 27 million. 

 

485     MR. VINER:  I get to answer the money questions. 

 

486     Madam Chair, when we originally filed, we filed for 15 million.  And the absolute truth is that when I was away on vacation, trying to think of ways in which we could ensure that we would be able to provide the communities with what they sought, and getting a couple of phone calls a day from Glen, who was urging us to see if we could put more -- even more money behind the project, I reviewed where originally, our 15 million came from, and it was because we had decided that that was the absolute maximum that we could afford over the course of a seven-year license.  And then I thought I've got to free myself from that thinking because we're not going to be around for just a seven-year license.  If you award this license to us, you know that we'll be here through not one license period, but through several.  So I thought, "Well, if I can do 15 million, I can up that if I go another five or seven years beyond that, if I amortize it."

 

487     I took that proposal back to Ted Rogers, and Ted agreed.

 

488     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And he forgot to check those two pages?

 

489     MR. VINER:  And he forgot to check those two pages.

 

490     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good enough.  Before we move to something else, Mr. Viner, you have something to add about the showcase?

 

491     MR. VINER:  Yes, the Community Producers Showcase, Madam Chair, I had the benefit of consulting with my colleagues at the break, and perhaps we would like to suggest that we would take as a condition of license, or a commitment, that no more than 20 percent of the hours scheduled for the producers showcase would be in Chinese or South Asian in any given month.  So we're looking at a way to ensure that we don't somehow become a predominantly Chinese or South Asian television station.  We hope that that maybe goes some way towards reassuring the Commission that that is not our intention.

 

492     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Now, I think it's the case that all your ethnic programming is Canadian, and all your Canadian programming is ethnic in this proposal, but when asked in deficiency, and you responded at page 3 of the first letter, you showed an intention to develop one hour.

 

493     Now, is this just because the Commission, the staff asked you why didn't you have Canadian programming that was non-ethnic, or did you see a value in adding some, and what would it be, how it would be scheduled, how would you make sure that it's not duplicative of what's already happening in the market?  Do you have your soul in this?  Do you see a value to it, or is it just a response to a question, thinking that we thought you should have some?

 

494     MR. SOLE:  Commissioner Wylie, when that deficiency came up, we discussed it as two stations, not one, and it was clear to us that with the recent renewal of CFMT, that there were opinions advanced that we should attempt to do some Canadian content in English that was not ethnic, and that would relieve the station to run more imported or foreign ethnic.

 

495     When we sat down and looked at that deficiency, we decided that if both stations together ‑‑ because CFMT is facing increased Canadian content, and we thought together, if we were to develop a English language, Canadian content magazine show, or a talk show, or something, that dealt with ethnocultural issues but not a qualifying program, that both stations would be relieved and be able to, in fact, import more foreign material.  That discussion came out of the renewal of CFMT and the need that Madeline expressed to me, and subsequently, what Glenn and the LMtv people expressed to me about that deficiency.  It was a solution that was reached between the two management groups, and I agreed with it.  So we are committing, as a result of that deficiency, to develop that five-hour English language, Canadian content program.

 

496     MR. VINER:  I think if I just may add, though, Commissioner --

 

497     THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is non-ethnic, you understand?

 

498     MR. SOLE:  That's correct. 

 

499     MR. VINER:  That's correct.  If I can just add, Commissioner, we've had extended conversations on this.  The requirement to have ethnic acquired programming is very important to the audience.  Chinese movies or imported entertainment shows from India or Pakistan, or any of the countries, is a significant part of the attraction that we provide to viewers.  It's difficult, given the economic circumstances, to launch LMtv with that, but what we're trying to do is create five hours on our schedule where we can bring in imported language programming, and that really is the key driver, and the way in which we'll accomplish that is by doing an English language non‑ethnic program.  And we say in our deficiency letter, we'll schedule it during daytime.  And that was the purpose.  That was the reason behind it.

 

500     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your response, really, is, "We'll do some non-ethnic Canadian, and we'll also import some ethnic programming that is not locally produced."

 

501     Now, I notice that in the Environics study, that if you look at question 6 -- you see your presence here will be validated now -- that if I remember, question 6 asks would you watch, or I forget what the question is exactly, but a service that would offer local programming and entertainment programming from the homeland, right?  Question 6, "The program would offer homeland entertainment and news from Hong Kong, South Asia..." et cetera.  So the response, the very highly positive response to whether people in the Lower Mainland would want this would have been affected possibly by the fact that they would get homeland programming in their language, right?  It's in the question.  And your proposal, up to the deficiency, didn't have any homeland programming in their language, correct?

 

502     MR. VINER:  That is true, Madam Chair, and it's only a matter of priority.  Yes, the audience said that they would like imported foreign programming, and they said they'd like a lot of things, but first and foremost, far beyond the others, they wanted programming that was relevant to them, that was reflective of the community, and was Canadian.

 

503     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, in this case, it's not what they said, it's what Environics asked.  The question was to get to an answer as to whether they would watch, the question includes ‑‑ correct? ‑‑ that it would have homeland entertainment programming.

 

504     MS. ARMSTRONG:  Question 6 does include a reference to homeland programming, but question 5, which is the first question that we asked ‑‑

 

505     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I knew you would have an answer. 

 

506     MS. ARMSTRONG:  Question 5, which is the first question, the top of mind kind of question, asked people whether they'd be interested in local news and local entertainment programming in their mother tongue, and as you know, that's where we got the response of nine in 10 saying that they would give that station a try.  And the response was not just unanimous in the sense that almost nine in 10 said that, it was enthusiastic.  Many more people said they were very interested in that local kind of station than even somewhat interested.  Very enthusiastic.

 

507     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are you doing any on CFMT at the moment, of foreign ethnic?

 

508     MS. ZINIAK:  Oh, yes.

 

509     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, and in either CFMT or LMtv, particularly, how will you choose the language and the type of programming?  Will you be interested in making sure that it's complementary to what's offered by services that already exist?

 

510     MS. ZINIAK:  Yes, that's correct.  The way we schedule acquired --

 

511     THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is what is called a leading question.

 

512     MS. ZINIAK:  Yes.  The way we schedule, of course, is by language corridor.  So we have found that most importantly, it's to either have local news or magazine programming followed or preceded by acquired material, be it entertainment, or, you know, be it tele-novellas.  So the way we schedule that is we build the audience who would actually get the benefit of both local programming and then entertainment and international or homeland material.

 

513     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, the 50 hours a week of non-ethnic programming which appears, or you say will be predominantly U.S. programming, in this same deficiency response, at the same pages, you explain that CFMT, at times, is required to buy national rights for a portion of its foreign English language programming.  And given that it operates within Ontario, CFMT then sub-licenses that programming to other regions and other broadcasters.

 

514     How much of CFMT's foreign programming is in that category that you're able to sub-license and recoup some of the cost in the form of national rights?

 

515     MR. SOLE:  Commissioner Wylie, they're generally situation comedies, and I can give you -- Frazier, we bought national rights for Frazier for 10 years.

 

516     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm more interested in what's the proportion --

 

517     MR. SOLE:  I would say 60/40.

 

518     THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- ball park figure of where you can sub-license?

 

519     MR. SOLE:  Where we can sub-license?  We have sub-licensing agreements in British Columbia currently.  Prior to CHUM being here, KVOS and VTV bought programming from us. 

 

520     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, if I can rephrase, then, my question is how much foreign programming do you buy for CFMT that you cannot or you do not sub-license, but you nevertheless paid national rights for?

 

521     MR. SOLE:  Somewhere between 20 and 25 hours out of the 50.  About half can't be sub‑licensed.

 

522     THE CHAIRPERSON:  That can be sub-licensed, but you may have had to have paid national rights for it?

 

523     MR. SOLE:  No, that wouldn't be the case.

 

524     THE CHAIRPERSON:  No.  You'd pay just for Ontario, and that's it?

 

525     MR. SOLE:  We would pay for something less than national rights, yes.

 

526     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So if you pay national rights, you normally can sub-license all of it?

 

527     MR. SOLE:  That was the case until the re-figuration in this market.  There were customers here that we could sub-license to.  At the same time, there were people that weren't competing with us.  But that has changed.

 

528     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Now, at page 4, I quote, you talk about:

 

A relationship between CFMT and another television station, such as LMtv, would greatly assist both stations in terms of bidding for and obtaining high-quality, foreign English-language programming.

 

529     Does that suggest that the synergies that Commissioner Cardozo will talk to you about in greater detail, is the ability to pay more because you'll definitely have two stations to amortize the cost of it?

 

530     MR. SOLE:  Well, everyone's paying more every year.  I think what it is, it would be an ability for both stations to acquire audience-attractive U.S. programming that would deliver the highest yields to support the Canadian content. 

 

531     LMtv will benefit from CFMT's place in the market, as will CFMT.  I think the economic value is not as important as the audience attractiveness that both stations together will be able to draw by getting the best programming as opposed to the most cost-efficient.

 

532     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And on the same page, that's what you mean when you say:

 

With access to high quality foreign English language programming, CFMT and LMtv will both be in a position to effectively maximize the revenue generated from the foreign English language portions of their respective programming schedule.

 

533     MR. SOLE:  Yes, Madam Chair, that's exactly right.

 

534     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, in your financials, is that synergy reflected in the amount of money attributed to the purchase of foreign programming rights?  Do you take into consideration -- for example, would this programming expense page under "Foreign Programming" look different if you didn't have CFMT?

 

535     MR. SOLE:  Our opinion is yes, it would look very different.

 

536     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Expand on that.  You took into consideration that ability to amortize over two stations without even the difficulty of whether it's sub-licensable or not, into consideration in coming to your non-Canadian programming expenses.

 

537     MR. SOLE:  Well, firstly of all, LMtv would be buying, or would be in a position to try to buy audience-attractive programming without the anchor of central Canada, which every national buy is pivoted on.  LMtv would end up somewhat in the position that KVOS has found themselves in recently and that is they're put into a position where they have to buy the programs that are left over.  And this has happened to us in Ontario.  It's not a comfortable feeling.  But it would be more acute when you get to a smaller market or to a market with less advertising and less audience available.

 

538     So I believe that LMtv, standing alone, attempting to put together a foreign English language schedule, would have quite a daunting task without CFMT.

 

539     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You probably can see where I'm going, that my last question will be considering -- I'll ask it now and you can think about how you answer it.  Considering these deficiencies that we've been talking about with regard to both the foreign programming and the local programming, because of the synergies between the two, should the Commission expect more?  And commitments that are -- you know, when it looks at the two competing applications, should it put that in the mix and say, "They'll have two stations to amortize this over.  They'll be able to get more quality."  Why not more local programming?  Why not more ethnic language programming?

 

540     MR. WONG:  Madam Chair, I think what you see as a result of the synergies of LMtv and CFMT are that $30 million, the $27 million for the B.C. Producers Initiative.

 

541     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, I'm not just talking about that.  I'm talking about how much of your ethnic programming is third language, how much of it there is.  Is 30 hours of news and 30 hours of magazine programming sufficient, given the resources you'll have and the synergies?  And should the 60 hours of local be 67.5, as calculated in your own programming grid?  It's an obvious -- you see, when you pitch synergies and, in fact, financially you can see they're there, then what should the measure be as to whether what you offer in terms of programming rises to the resources that you'll have? 

 

542     MR. VINER:  Madam Chair, we went through this very consideration when we developed the application.  It was our conclusion that, as Glenn has said, that by offering $27 million where none now exists, by offering a total of $30 million in community benefits, that that was appropriate.  We believed, after long consultations with program producers, that this -- that national -- or that ethnic producers, independent producers needed an opportunity, and we've put $27 million towards that.  That's, I think, what you might expect.  That's the direction in which we went because we felt that was of prime importance.  So we don't think that's an insignificant investment. 

 

543     So yes, there are financial synergies; we don't deny it.  We have put that money into a commitment for $27 million and an additional three.  We shouldn't forget the 1 million for positive portrayal and the scholarships and the community grants.  That's where that synergy has gone.

 

544     MR. WONG:  And Madam Chair, if I may, in terms of programming output, that results in the 65 hours of local programming and it results in 24 languages in our schedule and the belief that we will actually do more through the Community Producers Showcase and the B.C. Producers Initiative.  So I think that the result of the synergies are shown not just in the financials, and not just in the community benefits that go directly back to the community, but in terms of what the viewers will get and the ethnocultural groups, with more languages and more local hours.

 

545     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  With regard to your commitments, more languages, for example, is another area where, of course, discussions can be had about to what extent can you really offer a good service if you offer half an hour a week to 55 different languages.  But your commitments in the Executive Summary, at page 4 ‑‑ counsel will probably eventually get you to tell us what it is that your commitments are, because you have talked, again, about 24/24 and this morning in your local presentations, that's what we find when we do the analysis.  But your commitment appears to be 18 -- 22/18.  So we'll clarify that at the end, what is the commitment, because that's usually a condition of license.  And that again, with the balance or equilibrium I was talking about, can be an area where you can do more. 

 

546     Before we go to just a few questions I have on demand, Mr. Viner, you addressed the showcase and the whole issue of how much Chinese, how much South Asian programming.  Am I right that your commitment is 78 hours a month of Chinese language programming, and 78 hours a month, I think directed to the South Asian, but not necessarily in -- some of it in English?  Am I correct?

 

547     MS. KHAN:  Madam Chair, the block schedule shows 14 hours of Chinese programming, and 19.5 hours of programming for the South Asian communities.  I can give you a breakdown of the languages for the South Asian --

 

548     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, some of the South Asian may be in English, but directed to the South Asian community?

 

549     MS. KHAN:  That's right.

 

550     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Now, I'm coming back to what you will hear in intervention and some of the concerns that have been expressed about how much Chinese and how much South Asian programming.  Are you prepared to make further commitments?  Do you think it's necessary, not reasonable, whatever, to restrict you to a certain number of hours in these languages?  We can come back to in reply.

 

551     Now, demand.  Your research is into the South Asian and Chinese residents of the Lower Mainland.  What do you mean by that?  What is the Lower Mainland for the purpose of this research?  I may have missed it, but I didn't see anywhere an explanation of where your research was conducted.

 

552     MR. WONG:  The research was conducted here in the city of Vancouver.  For the purposes of the Lower Mainland, we mean the Fraser Valley, Vancouver, and because of our carriage, Victoria as well.

 

553     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So the questionnaires were only to people in the city of Vancouver?  Because the title of the research is that it was conducted in the Lower Mainland.

 

554     MR. WONG:  Sorry, the research was conducted here, but it surveyed people from the suburbs of Vancouver.

 

555     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, yes.  Well --

 

556     MR. WONG:  So sorry, from the Lower Mainland.

 

557     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

 

558     MR. WONG:  We use them interchangeably.

 

559     THE CHAIRPERSON:  It could have been conducted in Toronto?

 

560     MR. WONG:  No.

 

561     THE CHAIRPERSON:  It could have, I mean --

 

562     MR. WONG:  It could have, and they weren't.

 

563     THE CHAIRPERSON:  But the questionnaire is here, right?

 

564     MR. WONG:  That's correct.  Sorry, yes.

 

565     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So where it's conducted is -- it's who was put in the sample that I'm interested in.  So what's the Lower Mainland?

 

566     MR. WONG:  Lower Mainland?  Greater Vancouver residents.

 

567     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Give me a better idea.  Maybe Commissioner Grauer knows, but you know, what is encompassed there?  Well, I'm interested, because some of your proposals are all of B.C., some are Greater Vancouver.

 

568     MR. WONG:  Oh, I see.  Okay.  When we talk about --

 

569     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Lower Mainland.

 

570     MR. WONG:  Yes.  I apologize.  I'm a third-generation Vancouverite so you can believe I don't even know the names of the streets but I know where the restaurants and the hotels are. 

 

571     THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, no, I mean more general than that.  Other cities, other towns, Victoria?

 

572     MR. WONG:  Yes.  It would be equivalent of the Greater Toronto area, for instance.  It's Vancouver ‑‑ the city of Vancouver, Burnaby, Richmond, Coquitlam, Port Coquitlam, Port Moody.  It would be an area that if you were to drive, would be 45 minutes, although in today's traffic maybe an hour and a half.  North and West Vancouver.  Yes, so when we say the Lower Mainland, that's the general areas we're talking about.  Richmond, for instance, Surrey would be a very large population. 

 

573     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And only Chinese and South Asian residents of the Lower Mainland were canvassed.  How did you determine what other groups would be served?

 

574     MR. WONG:  Well, I have the benefit, Madam Chair, of having been the president of Rogers Cable Television here in British Columbia previously, and I had experience with the Rogers Multicultural Channel, and the many producers representing many different ethnic groups. And through that network and through Wai Young's work, who is in constant contact with local community groups, while it wasn't a formal research, it wasn't a quantitative study, we were able to get the opinions of many, many groups, many who have written to us and to the Commission, expressing their views about the type of programming and the languages that should be included.  So they're sort of -- that's not a quantitative way of doing it. 

 

575     We also have done focus groups around them as well.

 

576     THE CHAIRPERSON:  These, what I call the second entire next to -- I guess because it's second in my book, but the one addressed, if I recall, to the younger generation, it mentions English-speaking Chinese and South Asian residents of the Lower Mainland.  Could you then wonder whether there is not enough ethnic programming other than third language from the responses?

 

577     MR. WONG:  I'll ask Dr. --

 

578     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Because I gather that these would be English-speaking in their normal life.  Are you suggesting that what they wanted, however, was third language programming?

 

579     MR. LOH:  Madam Chair, when we do the studies, most people were assumed ‑‑ the younger Canadians or second-generation ethnic Canadians would not be as interested in ethnic programming.  That's why we were very conservative when we did the study to choose among the youth group.  Anyway, from 18 to 35, we chose specifically for the ones that do speak English, and then see if they're still interested in ethnic language programming, the type that would be provided by LMtv.

 

580     THE CHAIRPERSON:  In third language as opposed to ethnic in English?

 

581     MR. LOH:  That's correct.  And we were, of course, pleasantly surprised that over 80 percent of this particular group responded very favourably and they were really interested in what LMtv would have to offer.

 

582     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, I am almost done.  I have a few questions on complementarity.  I think it also comes out of these studies that people want something that's not available.  I understand the whole issue about having to pay for what's available, and this being free over the air, but over and above that question I think people want something that is not available to them.

 

583     How have you factored that into your schedule and your programming proposals?

 

584     MR. WONG:  Madam Chair, we have a range of programming, and it is very true, in talking with various people, that it's impossible to satisfy everyone.  We wish we had a 48-day, at times, to get all the program that we'd like to do. 

 

585     We did try to priorize and --

 

586     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hopefully you succeed this morning.

 

587     MR. WONG:  Maybe.  We have targeted, in a general sense, various groups with different types of programming.  For instance, youth programming.  On our schedule, you'll find 10 youth programs and that's really sort of teens to 21, and you know, in talking to parents and to many of our own associates that happen to be in that age group, it's a very troubling time.  And if you're an ethnic kid growing up in Vancouver, it can be even more troubling.

 

588     And so we have a number of programs that are designed for young people.  For the Cantonese, we have something called Raves and Waves.  There's a Hindi program called Gulshan (phonetic), a Japanese journal and Punjabi and Vietnamese.  And just it seemed really common in our discussions and consultations with various community groups that they were worried about their youth and being able to retain language and culture and to get programming on a very powerful medium free that they could connect with.  And so that's why, in our program schedule, you'll find 10 youth programs. 

 

589     THE CHAIRPERSON:  But the issue I'm focusing on now is complementarity.  Are you saying it's because that's not available in that language in the market at the moment?

 

590     MR. WONG:  Well, certainly for --

 

591     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm looking at did you look at what's available in the market?  Did you look at what's available on the Shaw Multicultural Channel and made an effort to supplement that, give something different and non-available?

 

592     MR. WONG:  Yes.  I mean, the answer is yes in that clearly, if you speak Mandarin or Cantonese, there are services available, albeit, as you've pointed out, you have to pay for it.

 

593     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm sure they have news.  It's not a service I'm that familiar with, or maybe I was more familiar with it at some time, but they are a little closer to conventional stations, are they not, than they are to specialty services?

 

594     MR. WONG:  Well, they are in terms --

 

595     THE CHAIRPERSON:  In the sense that they give news and entertainment, whereas you wouldn't have that in many specialty services. 

 

596     MR. WONG:  The challenge is the accessibility because you have to pay.  And now, specifically for Fairchild, it's on a digital box as well.  So for many people in the Chinese community, it's available but they don't have it because of the cost of it. 

 

597     THE CHAIRPERSON:  What your research seems to indicate ‑‑ I'll surely be corrected if I'm wrong, but it seems to indicate that those people who buy these services have no intention ‑‑ at least that's what you tell us ‑‑ have no intention of watching less of what they are already paying for, right?

 

598     MR. WONG:  Well --

 

599     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And will that not be more true if you make an effort to have something that's complementary to those two large groups that you're focusing on?  Am I correct that the research, you say, indicates that those who already watch that type of programming will not stop watching it. 

 

600     MS. ARMSTRONG:  That's correct.  A majority of people say that they will continue what they're watching now, maybe reallocate some of their choices, but they will continue. 

 

601     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So that's the researcher's answer.  Now, what is the broadcaster's answer to how they --

 

602     MR. WONG:  Sorry.  Can I -- my --

 

603     THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- to how they ensure that that occurs?  Does it not lead me to believe you would look at providing what's not provided now or at different hours or --

 

604     MS. NAIDOO-HARRIS:  Can I --

 

605     MR. WONG:  I'll go first, and then others can chip in.  Madam Chair, I think the issue for us, and what we've heard repeatedly from the community, including people that have the Fairchild service, is that they would like some choice.  They would like additional programming.

 

606     So we've tried to reflect that.  We've also tried to reflect in the spectrum of languages of having 24, some groups that just don't have any programming today. 

 

607     There is not a Punjabi daily news service, and this is, as you well know, a very large group in our community, and yet they don't have that daily news service.  So we've tried to reflect it that way.

 

608     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sorry.  I'm listening.

 

609     MS. NAIDOO-HARRIS:  If I may add, Madam Chair, I'm going to talk about Toronto a little bit, because we've had some experience with this there.

 

610     The show that I work on quite a bit is called South Asian News Week, and I've been told repeatedly by people when I'm out in the public that not one generation, not two generations, but three generations in a family will sit down and watch the show.  The question is why.  They watch it, and watch it very -- there's a very strong, loyal sort of following in terms of this show, and they watch it because they're getting something that they're not getting anywhere else. 

 

611     For the seniors in the family, they get a little bit of what's happening at home in a language, and certainly in a sort of focus on issues, that is not being discovered elsewhere, at other places on the dial.

 

612     When you come to the husband and wife, let's say, in the family, they're new immigrants.  They're still trying to find out what it means to be Canadian, and they also want to keep in touch with their culture, and our show provides that direct link to them. 

 

613     Now, for the children, it's an extremely difficult time for them.  I can tell you that it's difficult enough being a teenager, but being a teenager and being a new immigrant has stresses and strains that can be very, very difficult.

 

614     And so what I think this kind of programming does is it helps the children in specific and the various groups keep in touch with who they are.  The children understand their parents in terms of where they come from, what it is that mother and father are trying to say in terms of their culture, and this is what it's all about. 

 

615     They get to see it on a show that makes them feel good about who they are.  They have an opportunity to explore their unique identity and still discover what it's like to be Canadian, and I think that the service that these kinds of programs offer is key. 

 

616     It's something that new Canadians need, and Canada is changing.  The face of Canada is changing, and our programs have to reflect these changes.

 

617     THE CHAIRPERSON:  My question was much more narrowly focused than that.  It was, what is LMtv's understanding of, number one, serving the community rather than simply being an alternative replacement for what's there, and ensuring, for financial reasons and to make your researchers right, that there isn't less audience than you expected because you're offering something too similar to what's already there. 

 

618     That was my question.  Just how important, in your view, is it to look at what's available in Chinese, for example, that our more mature services in Vancouver -- there's also the South Asian service, but that you offer something different at different hours that's in effect scheduling choice, et cetera, and you come back then to language as well.

 

619     MR. LOH:  Madam Chair, maybe I can address the -- your question.  I'll try.  Madam Chair, the Chinese market, as you have outlined, it's a little bit more mature because we do have Fairchild and we do have, like television, being Mandarin, and the market is somewhat served.

 

620     But Glenn has talked a little bit about access because it is not available to every household.  In fact, it is just a fraction of the households of lower mainland community has that service, primarily because of the cost issue.

 

621     And over the eight years that we have done consultations with groups after groups, individuals after individuals, people have said to us, for people who don't have it, they want access; for people who do have it, they still want choice.

 

622     And I could give you an example what Indira was talking about in terms of community demands.  In my own household, I can tell you there are three generations, and they are all interested in more programming.

 

623     My mother-in-law, she's 75 years old.  She doesn't speak too much English so Chinese programming is a necessity for her.  She gets her information, her news, and entertainment all from Chinese programming.

 

624     My wife was an immigrant to this country at the age of four.  She is ethnic Chinese, but she speaks good Chinese, I like to say, and she would like to think so.  But she doesn't read or write Chinese, and she does want Chinese TV. 

 

625     The specific example, the most recent one I have with her was a discussion just yesterday.  We have a city by-election here.  Richmond is one of the lower mainland municipality and just had the by‑election for the mayor and three council positions, and one of the mayoral candidates is ethnically Chinese, and his wife is a physician, a colleague of my wife, also a physician.  They know each other. 

 

626     So we were there sitting in front of our TV on Saturday night, waiting for the results of the election, because we like to know generally who won, who lost, but in this particular case we have a personal interest because my wife knows one of the candidate's wife, and she wanted to know.  And we were surfing the channels, local channels, and finally one station reported on the result, but all they said was who won the mayor position but they didn't say what numbers, the votes, and they didn't do a interview.  They did a quick interview, ten second byte, with the winner, but there was no interview with the one we were interested in.

 

627     And my wife was very disappointed.  She asked, "What's the number?"  And I said, "I don't know.  We have to wait.  If there's a Chinese program they will talk about the numbers."  And in this case, because it's a Chinese candidate, my wife was particularly interested.  There's a personal interest.  But I can assure you, for ethnic candidates running in an election, there will be lots of interest from that particular ethnic community of the result and the interview.

 

628     And for my children, the third generation in my family, my children -- I send them to Chinese school Saturday, every Saturday for three hours of Chinese language training because I want them to maintain their heritage.

 

629     But we're not alone in that situation.  There are over 100 schools, Chinese schools in the Lower Mainland, and some of you, some of the people might say, "Oh, this is just the parents wanting their children to learn the language."  But I can tell you the UBC Chinese program is attended by -- over 50 percent would be ethnic Chinese students.

 

630     So the young people do want to learn the language.  They know that it's an advantage if they know the language.  So there's a strong demand in the market that's not being met, and LMtv will meet that.

 

631     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So that there are two issues.  One is to supply programming to those who, for whatever reason, don't want to pay for the existing services.  The other is the extent to which you'll pay attention to the complementarity of the programming so that it's not a repetition, but an addition to the communities.  I have one --

 

632     MR. WONG:  Madam Chair, if I may, I think Tony -- I would just ask Tony, if you don't mind, if he would comment and then Lock Sing --

 

633     MR. VINER:  Madam Chair, I just wanted to say that the answer, I think, on the complementariness of our program, if there is such a word that I've used, is that you know, we'll be intensely local.

 

634     Remember, in Toronto we compete against these same services, and so we do it by having intensely local television news and programming directly reflective of the local communities.  So I believe it can also be done here, and just with respect to the demand in these communities, perhaps Lock Sing might just say a word.

 

635     MR. LEUNG:  I'm responsible for the qualitative research of the study and I believe I can shed some light in this issue here.

 

636     When we talk about alternatives, what I've learned from these groups is that it's not a matter of that they don't have television programs in Chinese or South Asians.  Really, they're talking more about the quality.

 

637     And when I talk about quality in here, they're referring to quality in the productions and also quality in the in depth way of treating a particular subject.

 

638     So coming back to, for instance, you mentioned yes, for the Chinese, they have Chinese news, so therefore why do we need two Chinese news programs.  It really comes back to when we showed them in the study those sample video with all the different segments in there, what really impressed respondents, I feel, from the groups, it's not just that, "Oh, I've seen this or this cover."  They're really impressed by the quality of the productions in --

 

639     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You know, I'm sorry to interrupt, but the video I wasn't going to raise, but you raised it.  I've been involved before with people who produced seven-, eight-minute videos. 

 

640     I'd hate to thing that one's research would hang on that, because of course it's going to look marvellous.  It's going to be little bits of the best of everything, and you spend weeks at it and so on, just like what we saw this morning.  It's marvellous.  It's touching.  It's emotive, emotionally engaging, but surely you don't tell me that this is a research tool that gives -- if I say you'd see that all day here, would you like it?  Well, of course.

 

641     MR. WONG:  Madam Chair, if I may, having worked on the research here, it was an eight-minute video of actual footage.  There was no music.  There was no voice-overs.  It was --

 

642     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, I haven't seen it, but in any event --

 

643     MR. WONG:  Well, but it was representative of the programming --

 

644     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes --

 

645     MR. WONG:  -- because it was taken --

 

646     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Let me ask you while I have the research people.  This is my last question.  On your Environics test or study with young South Asian and Chinese, question 3, interest in watching the new television station, you say, "Interest in watching" -- this is in page 5, 6 of the report.  Quote:

 

647     Interest in watching the proposed station is much more intense among South Asians than among Chinese residents.

 

648     The difference is 52 percent in South Asians and 36 percent in Chinese.

 

649     Is it your view that it's because there's already some Chinese programming available that there would be this -- and has been available for a longer period, as opposed to the South Asian service, which is rather new?

 

650     Is that a reason?  What is the reason for this big discrepancy in interest in watching LMtv, the proposal?

 

651     MS. ARMSTRONG:  The question really was just, would you be likely or not likely to watch this new station, and the responses, the differences between the South Asian and the Chinese sample tell us simply that, the degree to which those two groups would be interested.

 

652     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

 

653     MS. ARMSTRONG:  Myself, I can't really answer that question.

 

654     THE CHAIRPERSON:  No.

 

655     MS. ARMSTRONG:  Perhaps someone else on the Rogers team --

 

656     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Does the panel have a comment?  Is it because people feel not perfectly satisfied, but the Chinese language residents of the Lower Mainland are more satisfied than the South Asian because of the availability?

 

657     MR. VINER:  It's reasonable speculation.  We think it's a quality issue, but yes.  That's -- I think that's a reasonable speculation.

 

658     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think I interrupted you.  Is there something else you want to add?  No.  Yes, Mr. -- your colleague.

 

659     MR. LEUNG:  Yes.  I just want to come back just to comment on ‑‑ you're right.  Just based on an eight minutes kind of a video, even 15 minutes would not -- should not be based on that, to draw any conclusions.

 

660     What I was really trying to say is that even before showing the videos, we're trying to learn, first of all, as to what the needs are for any kind of news stations or anything, given what they've seen so far.

 

661     And the point I want to make is that for the Chinese, and certainly also for the South Asians as well, is that their main complaint is about the quality.

 

662     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, and I realize fully that the video was just one component, that you also had verbal focus groups, I guess.  So I don't want to denigrate it, but it's to me a tool that is very good for impressing Commissioners, but you shouldn't prepare your financial projections on the basis of their reaction.

 

663     This is it for me.  I thank you for your patience.  I've been longer than I thought.  I will deliver you to Commissioner Cardozo at quarter to 2:00.  Thank you.

 

664     Alors, nous reprendrons à 2 heures moins le quart, 1:45.

 

--- Upon recessing at 1245 / Suspension à 1245

 

--- Upon resuming at 1345 / Reprise à 1345

 

665     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  As promised, I will now deliver you to Commissioner Cardozo.  Although I apparently did make a mistake.  Synergies will be discussed by Commissioner Grauer as I said at the opening.  I confused that later on during the morning.  The pattern still remains that Commissioner Cardozo will do Synergies.  Commissioner Grauer will do Synergies.  A senior moment.  Commissioner Cardozo.

 

666     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  I know what I want to do, so let's proceed.

 

667     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I do have a priority button.

 

668     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  As Commissioner Wylie said, I'll be covering local presence, community feedback and social issues, and I think, as you'll note through the day, of course, they are issues that we've touched on before which maybe I'll try and clarify a bit further in some cases, but it's hard to cut your application into very discreet elements.  We've tried to do as much of that as we can. 

 

669     Can you hear me okay?  If you can't at any time, just let me know. 

 

670     Let me start, then, talking about local management and ask you if you can give us a bit more information than you have about the degree to which the local management, and I suppose that means primarily you, Glenn Wong, will have with regards to decision-making authority.  What are the kinds of decisions you will make and what are the kinds of decisions you would have to get Mr. Viner's agreement or somebody else in the Toronto headquarters?

 

671     MR. WONG:  Thank you, Commissioner.  The local decision-making would be around programming, for instance, what would be carried on LMtv, local editorial control, obviously, because it's important to reflect what our communities want here.

 

672     In our plans we will want to hire approximately 135 people from here in the Lower Mainland, and that would be a local hiring decision as well.

 

673     And as answerable as I will be to Mr. Viner, I'm also answerable to our local advisory board, as another way of making sure that not only I'm accountable but my staff would be accountable in providing the programming for our communities.

 

674     So those would be some examples of the local decision-making autonomy that we have, and again because it's a local station wanting to reflect the local communities, it can't be done by remote control.

 

675     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  The flip side of that question is, then, what are the decisions that would be made in Toronto that you would have to seek authority from Toronto from the headquarters?

 

676     MR. WONG:  I think one of the areas that we'll benefit from in that, is the acquisition of foreign programming, particular the American programming.  And starting up a new station, I'd want to be very much focused on what we can do locally with our local programming. 

 

677     And if I can get some help, and if I only have to input as opposed to have to drive the negotiations for acquisition of foreign programming, for instance, that would be most beneficial for me and my staff here.

 

678     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And I guess budgetary plans at some level.  Almost every company I've been in, oddly enough, people want to know about budgets and revenue and how you're making targets. 

 

679     The way it works in the Rogers groups of companies is that you set your targets in conjunction, and it's a collaborative approach, but once as management you accrue your numbers, you go out and achieve them, and if there's assistance you need, you can draw on the other parts of the company for those resources. 

 

680     But really, it's up to the local management to make their numbers and that's the way I've operated with Rogers in previous lives and the way I've operated in most parts of my career.

 

681     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  In terms of senior staff, who are the senior staff that you would have who are here ‑‑ and I'm not asking necessarily for the names of people, but what are the roles or the titles that you will have?  I guess I'm asking you to demonstrate to us that decision-making rests here. 

 

682     MR. WONG:  There's many key positions but the ones in particular that come to my mind would be a vice-president of programming, to ensure that our programming is local and relevant for the local communities. 

 

683     We are fortunate enough already to have Wai Young on board, who is our director of community and program development, and Wai has extensive history with many, many of the multicultural groups in the Lower Mainland so it gives us a leg up.  I would also want to have our sales, obviously, locally as well.

 

684     Now, there's obviously good synergies in working with CFMT staff.  The areas that I think I would de-emphasize in my management team is I wouldn't want to have a vice-president of finance per se.  I think we can get a lot of synergies on the operating side with some of the back office administrative and accounting type functions.

 

685     So sales, news director for sure to be local, and production.  A lot of our production would have to be local here because we'll be working with local, independent producers, so a large number of producers will be needed on staff to help with that programming.

 

686     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Just to clarify, LMtv will be 100 percent owned by Rogers?

 

687     MR. VINER:  Yes, sir.

 

688     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Right.  I'm just wondering, had you ever contemplated any joint ownership with either people locally based or ethnic minorities in the Vancouver area?

 

689     MR. VINER:  Yes, we had, Commissioner Cardozo.  We had some discussions with the other applicant.  But the vision of a -- it varies, and not for you to decide whose vision is better, but the vision varies.  The horizon to get a return on in investment varies.

 

690     There are also some issues that relate to the synergies that I know that you or the chair or Commissioner Grauer or Commissioner Pennefather of Commissioner Wilson will discuss with me ‑‑

 

691     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  That's a very good approach.

 

692     MR. VINER:  -- will discuss with me.  A real practical reality is that if you have one completely owned entity and another that's owned in partnership, then you have to charge things out at commercial rates and do arms-length transactions and have them sort of the free-flow of programming and information and all of those kinds of things, is impeded by a different structure.

 

693     But having said that, we did contemplate it, and it didn't work out.

 

694     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  What are your thoughts -- the issue of ownership is often one of the issues that comes before us and the Act is not crystal clear in terms of saying we should favour a local ownership or not, but there is some sense of local programming, local reflection has to be serious and involved, and you've certainly gone through a lot of steps to demonstrate how you would do that. 

 

695     But in general terms, what's your guidance to us as to whether we should take the issue of local ownership into account or where we place it on the scale of making a decision?

 

696     MR. WONG:  Commissioner Cardozo, I think it is something obviously that has to be added into the mix and certainly considered and weighed.

 

697     What the people we've talked to, though, I mean literally thousands of people now, what really counts for them is what they see on their television station. 

 

698     As you well know, there's been a very large number of ownership changes amongst the mainstream television stations here in the Lower Mainland.

 

699     And if you were to poll people, nine out of ten people, I would venture to say -- and that's not an official number but my guess -- nine out of ten people wouldn't know who owns what now.  And what matters to them though, is, "Can I still see Tony Parsons, the number one news anchor on that evening broadcast at 6:00 on Channel 11?  Yep, I can."

 

700     Now, does Tony get a paycheque with a different logo on it?  It doesn't matter to the viewer.

 

701     And so while I think it should be taken into consideration, what matters for our viewers is, what type of programming are they going to get?  What type of quality of programming are they going to see as a result?

 

702     So really, it's the programming and the quality of it that really, really counts the most. And particularly for an ethnic broadcaster, who should be so privileged to obtain this license, the expertise and the experience that we think we've gained, that I know I had as a result of having the Rogers Multicultural Channel, and learning about the diversity, and the dynamic needs of the community groups, the ownership and whose logo was on that paycheque wasn't as important as the advisory board we had for the Multicultural Channel, as the community groups that said, "I want this type of programming."

 

703     And so it's really the connection you have with the community and your ability to reflect their voice and their vision, as opposed to the straight ownership question.

 

704     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  With regards to management, where do you see -- I'm just trying to understand how you fit the whole thing together, and it seems to me that there's perhaps in terms of the relationship between the local station and CFMT, that it's sort of a helping and directing dichotomy of how you look at it.  You don't mind them helping you, but you don't want them directing you.  Is that a fair kind of dichotomy?

 

705     MR. WONG:  Well, I'm not perfect, so sometimes direction would be appropriate, but I think for us to really be --

 

706     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  That's not what your brief said.

 

707     MR. WONG:  I could --

 

708     MR. VINER:  No time to be modest.

 

709     MR. WONG:  And I guess I've been in this situation in other cases before.  You know, prior to this I was president of Electronic Arts Canada, and Electronic Arts is the largest video game company in the world.  It does about $2.1 billion in revenue.  $600,000,000 of revenue is done out of the studio here in Vancouver, specifically Burnaby.

 

710     And I was the president and general manager of that studio and the one in Seattle.  We had 700 people.  There were 3,200 people in Electronic Arts in 12 studios around the world. 

 

711     But in that situation it was very much, "Here's what I'm committing my team and my management to.  This is what we're going to achieve and we're going to do it."  When I needed help or resources, the company was there, but in the meantime the company's expectation of me was, "You'll go out and deliver.  If there's anything we can do to help and assist, absolutely."

 

712     And I think what we see in the case with CFMT and LMtv as sister stations, is we get those benefits.  We get what I've described to many as the best of both worlds.  I get the resources, the expertise and the experience, and I get to take all that and apply it to a fantastic local television station, and part of that synergy effect is, you know, if I had to do a graphic presentation, I could use Microsoft PowerPoint.  I can pick up that piece of software and do whatever I want in terms of content and creativity and expression.  I don't have to go out and create the piece of basic software in order to do that.

 

713     So that's the kind of direction or the kind of resources and expertise that I think would be very advantageous for LMtv.

 

714     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So, is there a kind of situation where they, in terms of programming, and also you've talked about training, production expertise and stuff like that, that they offer you just about everything, and you decide what you're going to take?

 

715     MR. WONG:  That's exactly right.  I've been to CFMT.  I've been several times, because obviously I want to be as familiar with it as I can.

 

716     I've sat in news briefings in the mornings where the different language reporters and production assistants and editors get together in the morning, and I've watched them to see how they discuss stories and figure out who's going to cover what, and how they're going to bring it back so that there's a cross-cultural aspect to it.

 

717     So that's an example of, on a personal level, where I've benefited from being able to go in and not just witness, but I mean, poke around and ask questions, just park myself there.

 

718     And obviously because we're the same company, it's very, very open for me, and it's been a great resource. 

 

719     I know CFMT does a lot of ongoing training for their staff.  We can take those systems and that training and apply it at LMtv and develop our own as well.

 

720     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  You mentioned cross-cultural programming.  You've talked about the program, Multicultural Canada, which will be co-produced, I understand, by LMtv, CFMT and CJNT. 

 

721     And it's a question for you, Mr. Viner, and if you don't like it you can say it's an unfair question, but if we were not to license LMtv, would you still be going ahead with Multicultural Canada?

 

722     MR. VINER:  It's not a fair question.  No, Commissioner Cardozo, we might very well.  We conceived it in the context of this hearing.  I guess your question is would we go -- I have no idea whether the successful applicant, if it weren't us, if the other applicant would be interested in such a program.  I have -- I can't speak for the CanWest Global folks as to whether or not they would be.  But presumably, you know, if we thought it was a good program, it would air.

 

723     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Well, certainly you've filed some of the evidence about it, and I've long believed that a program like that is really needed somewhere in the broadcasting system, and I think it's important that you've identified a program of that kind.

 

724     Can we move to the local advisory board and just tell us how it would be chosen, which communities it would cover, depending on how you define communities.  There's somewhere between 30 and 78 in this area, or more.  Obviously, you're not going to have 78 members.  How would you pick -- would they be rotating and what length of term?

 

725     MR. WONG:  Thank you.  I'll ask Mason, who is the vice-chair of the advisory board to answer that.

 

726     MR. LOH:  Thank you.  Thank you, Commissioner Cardozo.  We envision that the advisory board will be made up of a minimum of eight people.  Right now we only have the chair, who is Mobina Jaffer, and myself as the vice-chair, and we intend to appoint at least six more people from the community, but we don't think it's the right time to do it until, if and when we get the license to operate the station.  And we have promised the community, through the many consultations we've done with the communities, that when we make the appointments, that we will consult the various communities for their views and their suggestions, and we want to be very careful with that appointment.

 

727     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And how often would they meet?

 

728     MR. LOH:  They're scheduled to meet quarterly, but if there should be issues that come up that need urgent attention and handling, then we will certainly do that, and we will work very closely with the management.  If the management should face an issue, or a community should raise an issue with the management, we will be there.  We will be like the bridge between the community and the management.

 

729     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And how are you the bridge between the larger community ‑‑ if you've got eight members, that doesn't cover a lot of communities, and eight is a manageable number so that's fair.  How does the advisory committee relate to the rest of the population?

 

730     MR. LOH:  There may be a finite number of positions that we intend to create on this board, but we are all Canadians and we will all be local residents.  It is impossible to say -- you know, we could have a board of, say, 30 people or 50 people to represent every single community living in this area, but we hope to find and appoint people who do have good standing in the community generally, and also have representation within the certain, say, ethnic communities to be selected.

 

731     We do have some idea who these people are because over 1,600 people have written in in support of our application, and we have certainly talked to more than that 1,600 people.  So we certainly have some idea who would be good candidates, but we're just not ready to do it.

 

732     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Do you see the ability to have like town hall meetings or sort of roundtables or whatever with the community at large?

 

733     MR. LOH:  If --

 

734     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Or would the station be doing that?

 

735     MR. WONG:  Maybe I'll answer, because it's a current practice that we would continue.  In developing this application and making sure that we hit all the right buttons for the various communities, there's been extensive consultations and several of us have gained a couple of pounds for all the dinners we've been to to attest to the number of meetings we've had.  And so that practice would continue.

 

736     And again, I think it's in the best interest of this station, if I was to be selfish, to make sure that we had that connection with all the local communities.  Twenty-four languages and all the groups to connect with, it behoves us to make sure that we are out and with everyone and that we're very open to them.  Madeline, did you want to add to that?

 

737     MS. ZINIAK:  Actually, I did want to add that this is one of the systems that we would like to share.  The programming advisory system that we have had in Ontario and Toronto, where we have actually chosen individuals who reflect the language groups that we broadcast to, and there's a series of systems that we have in place for that programming advisory group that have proven us, have served us well, and we have, actually, several books on the policies, but I'll hopefully be able to get into that area later.

 

738     But importantly, that we have established a system whereas line producers can contact one on one those programming advisors to speak with them about conflictual situations and other areas.  So that is just one of the examples of things that we have found that would be complementary to the board that we have found as extremely valuable to us as programmers.

 

739     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Do you want to add something, Mr. Wong?

 

740     MR. WONG:  I do, but I don't want to ‑‑ unless we have time.  You know, we did talk about whether we should name the advisory board, because there is many, many, many people who have put forward their names and have offered and volunteered already.  But Mobina and Mason have been very clear with the community groups that we would consult with them, that while it may be more convenient or have a better appearance to have a fully appointed advisory board, the commitment to the communities was if we get the license, we will commit to consulting and ensuring that whoever is chosen is reflective of that community.

 

741     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Can we talk a little bit more about the role of the local advisory board?  So it's advisory, it's not operational, it's not decision-making, I take it.  But I noticed in Schedule 18, page 2, you note that LMtv will directly involve the local community to determine the amount and nature of the programming.  Is that the board?  Is that feedback?

 

742     MR. WONG:  It's actually both.  I mean, on a regular basis, and to be consistent, I would count on my advisory board to help us with that. 

 

743     One thing, because the staff and myself are from the communities and from Vancouver, we would, as a natural course of business, have those consultations on our own, formally and informally.  And I think there's many ways of either having town halls or forums or getting input from people. 

 

744     It's interesting to me, even from my Rogers Cable days, that once people know who you are and they've seen you once or twice, they have no problem giving you opinions about what you ought to be doing, and I don't suspect that LMtv is going to be much different from that. 

 

745     MR. VINER:  I would just like to add, Commissioner, that our experience at CFMT is that we have a vibrant advisory board, and they act in virtually every respect as a board of directors.  We take our budgets to them for approval, we talk to them about programming decisions.  We ask for their assistance in feedback.

 

746     So they do not have the fiduciary responsibilities of a board, but in every other respect they're treated as a board of directors.  We make presentations to them, they vote on things, and it runs the gamut of the entire operation of the television station.  And they make recommendations directly both to management and to the Rogers Media board, and in no case can I recall have the recommendations of the CFMT advisory board not been accepted by either management or RMI on some very -- you know, programming issues as to whether we should do more or less Italian programming, how we should schedule some things, regulatory issues.  All of those kinds of things have been and are discussed with the board, and we would see exactly that occurring here in Vancouver.

 

747     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  You've talked about how individual advisory boards might be consulted on particular issues, and Commissioner Wylie mentioned that a little while back.  How would that work if there was a question about, say, more Italian programming, as you just mentioned?  Would it be an Italian-Canadian member on the board who would be consulted on that?

 

748     MR. WONG:  Commissioner Cardozo, I think one of the things that we would ask of our advisory board, and Mobina and Mason really exemplify this now, is that they don't represent a single ethno-cultural group, they represent the communities.  And the people that I would ask, or would like to have serve on the advisory board, would take the whole view, as opposed to the group that I happen to be associated with.  And we would ask that they think about with this number of scheduled hours, what's the most appropriate way of divvying it up by language group.  And we would ask the advisory board to think of it on behalf of all the ethnocultural groups, not just the one they happen to be most strongly affiliated with.

 

749     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  What feedback mechanisms do you have in general, then?  You've talked about a website?

 

750     MR. WONG:  Yes.

 

751     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And in general, when you're out shopping at the supermarket, people get a hold of you and bend your ear and --

 

752     MR. WONG:  Bend my ear and other parts.  But the website is an important part of it because it's a way of getting almost instantaneous feedback on our programming, and it's fairly efficient to do.  I have had other experience in previous lives with online efforts and it's a great way of really creating community on the web, and a community around a specific issue around a language is a great way we can get feedback as well.  And in our business we'd want it very, very quickly.  So that's one way of doing it. 

 

753     I also know that there's another trick you can do in news broadcasts where you can have a telephone poll to try to solicit opinions on various issues of the day.  I'd call it a --

 

754     MS. ZINIAK:  I just interrupt and say it's not a trick.

 

755     MR. WONG:  A proven news technique.  So I think there's lots of formal and informal ways that we're going to know, and I think the biggest one for me personally has been the roundtables.  When I was president of Rogers Cable, one of the things that I committed to was to be on air weekly with a live-to-air hour long show to go head to head with my 628,000 customers.  And there is no better way than when you're on air with your customers and they tell you what they like and don't like, of getting that sort of direct input.

 

756     And LMtv, to reflect the very, very diverse ethno-cultural groups in the Lower Mainland, will have all of those types of mechanisms.  And you know, I can't emphasize enough Wai Young's role in this, who for many, many years has worked with so many of the different communities, and I'm really counting on a partner like Wai to make sure that everything we do cuts it across as many groups as we can. 

 

757     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  With regards to getting feedback on programs, particular programs, when you get down to the nitty gritty, I take it that you have a fair amount of experience from CFMT to share as to how you respond to those needs.  Who would have access to talking about developing program ideas?  Would it be producers only, or would you hear from the community at large, who may have no interest or intention of producing a program but just feel that there's a certain gap that exists?

 

758     MR. WONG:  Madeline can maybe talk a little bit about the CFMT experience.  But it would be both.  I mean, obviously, producers would have a more direct prime interest in it, but because of the nature of our eight years of consulting with the community, you can well imagine, we've had lots of ideas from, you know, the general public and the ethnocultural groups that may not be part of the broadcast system, but they certainly have opinions about how they want to have -- what they want their children and their families to see, how they want to be represented on television.  So Madeline?

 

759     MS. ZINIAK:  There are several areas that we depend on at CFMT-TV for viewer feedback.  Number one, as I mentioned, we have the programming advisory committee, which are actual individuals who are language specific to the product.  We not only platform them on our programs so audiences know who they are, so when they go to community events they're actually bombarded by both positive and negative points of view on either the issues we've covered or the quality of the programming.  So the community has the opportunity to know who these people are.  So that is the actual committee.

 

760     Secondly, on each --

 

761     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Sorry, is that the equivalent of the local advisory board that you're planning for here?

 

762     MS. ZINIAK:  No, it's complementary to the board.  It's complementary to the advisory board.  This is specifically for programming, where we would choose individuals --

 

763     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Sorry, had you planned a similar programming committee for Vancouver?

 

764     MR. WONG:  Yes.

 

765     MS. ZINIAK:  And this is where you get the language proficiencies.  Rather than the more general multiculturalists, we have those who are language specific and know the communities that we're broadcasting to.

 

766     Secondly, we have, at the end of each language program, in language, a viewer line, where individuals know the contacts, which is usually the actual producer of the program, who to contact, where they can express, in language, in their own language, the opinion of the topics discussed or programs in general.  And that of course we do by voicemail. 

 

767     We also have a position of an information program coordinator, whose sole duty is to access all of the viewer mail and have direct contact back, personally, to the individuals who call with both compliments and complaints, who would actually then give it back to a person who's proficient in language to deal -- if the individual has difficulty in expression in English, we always have somebody who can speak to them in language. 

 

768     Thirdly, presently we have polling on our newscasts where we're able to ask a question and get feedback on each of our newscasts, where we're able to actually get viewpoints of the community statistically, of how they feel about political issues, about any question that the producers feel it's appropriate to ask.  And of course we have IVR.  And also, just to gauge who's watching some of our programs, we have contests on our various language programs, which gives us also a good idea as to who's watching or who would like to participate.

 

769     So those are just some of the ways that we're able to get direct feedback to the kinds of programs that we do, and we make sure also -- because we know that it's relationships with communities that many of us who have been doing this for a very, very long time make sure, not only the team here, but certainly people like our independent production coordinator and producers, we make sure that we are intrinsically available at community events where we actually go and speak to different individuals in the community.  We do a lot of presentations, both nationally and ethno-specifically.  So we make sure we're out there where we speak to people one on one.  So it's not only personally, but of course, using the mechanism of television to communicate to people and answer questions by phone and personally.

 

770     MS. NAIDOO-HARRIS:  If I may add, it's been my experience, when you are putting out shows that are reporting on what's happening within communities, it is key that you know what's going on within those communities, and you have a relationship so that you get feedback constantly about what the stories are, what is happening.

 

771     In my unit this is happening all the time.  When the attack happened, for example, in New York, the terrorist attacks, we had phone calls coming in constantly from members of the community, from the Muslim community, from people from Afghanistan, from the South Asian community in general calling us to tell us how they felt, and also to tell us that their children, perhaps, were being beaten up in schoolyards, that sort of thing.

 

772     So that relationship is important if you're going to be putting out good shows and it's a relationship that we value and make sure that we have a -- it's important to find the stories that you want to report on.  So we keep that line of communication open at all times.  And it goes both ways.  It's not always positive, but we listen to what people have to say.

 

773     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  What you say reminds me, one of the comments about the opening video, and Commissioner Wylie mentioned it earlier ‑‑ I actually thought it wasn't that great a video on one level in that it dealt with a series of tragic and sad and negative stories.  There is lots of positive stories.  If you talk about the multicultural community in Vancouver or Toronto, you're talking about a major part of the economy, the boom of the economy and that is part of what you reflect too, isn't it?

 

774     MR. WONG:  I'll start, and then please chip in.  You know, the video was meant to really exemplify a current event that is touching a lot of our communities today, and they don't have that voice.  There isn't that ability to get a deeper level understanding in their language of how to deal with this.  And Indira can maybe talk about her experience in handling similar sorts of very weighty issues.

 

775     There are other wonderful cultural, positive things happening.  We try to reflect that in our programming so that there is the balance.  But in Vancouver, in the absence of an ethnic broadcaster, there is a burning need to have that voice for these communities so that in their language, an important issue that, if I speak English or French ‑‑ which I do one more than the other ‑‑ I get all sorts of news coverage, in-depth coverage, analysis of the recent events.  But I don't if I'm not -- in other languages.

 

776     MS. NAIDOO-HARRIS:  Unfortunately, at times when you're doing news, it seems like all the news you report is negative and bad, and it seems to be a problem that most news services, I think, battle on a daily basis.  But what we do provide at CFMT is a voice for people who are being forgotten and who are not being heard, and we do that in two ways.  I can't speak specifically to the video and why it was put together in the way it was, but we wanted to show something, I believe, that we were strong at doing.  We do report on the various communities, and the concerns, and the stories that are being forgotten in a very fair and balanced way, to the best of our ability.  And so on the one hand, you have those sorts of issues.

 

777     On the other, yes, in our shows there are positive stories because the role that we play is to also give immigrant communities and immigrant children, new immigrant children in specific, I think, role models, a chance to see that there are people in their community who are succeeding and doing well.  And we do that on a daily basis.  There is no question.

 

778     Whether it has to do with seeing members of their community up doing the news, reporting it and being on air and being news anchors, or if it happens to be just being able to see someone who is Miss Canada and also South Asian, or Lata Pada, who is a well known dancer, people who are breaking barriers and achieving heights that perhaps, people within the community hadn't really thought of.

 

779     And these stories empower the communities and do give them a sense of who they are and how they're doing, a way of keeping track of just what the possibilities are in Canada.  And that's what we try to achieve.

 

780     I'm not sure if I should go into the complexities of what we do at this point.

 

781     MR. WONG:  Maybe Mason can comment on that.

 

782     MS. NAIDOO-HARRIS:  Yes.

 

783     MR. LOH:  Yes, Commissioner Cardozo, if I may just add to that a little bit.  With respect to the video itself, I have to say that we all recognize that we live in a very troubling time.  There are very tragic issues happening and we're all struggling with it.  So when we actually -- we didn't spend a lot of time putting together the video.  There were some comments a little earlier about how long it took.  I actually have to say, with the experience and expertise of CFMT's team, they actually helped to put together the video in a very short time.  I think it was just a week or two weeks that the video was put together.

 

784     And we actually debated in terms of what should go in the video, but we felt that, with the time limit on the video, it was only three and a half minutes we could, considering our presentation, what is the main message we want to deliver? 

 

785     In this troubling time, we feel that the social impact of a station like LMtv is the most important point we want to make, hat it can do for the community, reporting on the issues that really affect peoples' lives. 

 

786     In fact, in an earlier cut of the video, we had some things in there, success stories.  One of them was Nelly Furtado, a local celebrity.  She was actually interviewed by CFMT five or six years ago before she made it big, and it was a great story and we wanted to talk about it, but we decided to pull it out because of the time limit on the video.  But I have to say, Commissioner Cardozo, I've seen the programs on CFMT.  They give a lot of success stories which are not told by mainstream media.  That's the main difference.

 

787     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Yes, okay.  I just want to clarify.  When I talked about the video, the September 11^th story is just a massively overwhelmingly negative story, and there's no other way to tell that.  I guess we get stories of how people are strengthened and countries are strengthened as they deal with it, but there were a lot of other stories I was referring to in there.  They talked about a Tamil family at a hospital and so forth.

 

788     I thought the story you mentioned earlier in an earlier question about Derek Dang running for mayor of Richmond is a positive story in one sense in that he ran for mayor.  The end of that story is negative too ‑‑ he didn't win ‑‑ for him, but there's at least a half-hearted --

 

789     MR. WONG:  The other candidate wouldn't think that.

 

790     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  -- I did add for him, yes. 

 

791     In Schedule 17, you've got a series of very interesting descriptions of programs, several pages of one-page programs which have various sections to them.  Just so I understand, are those actual programs that you've agreed to, have signed contracts and stuff, or are those the kinds of ideas that you're developing?

 

792     MR. WONG:  These are concept ideas.  So we haven't signed contracts with them specifically, but we wanted to map out, after having talked to the communities, the types of programming that they would want to be most representative. 

 

793     As an example of things that we said that people, particularly in the Punjabi community have said, "We've got enough song and dance.  We get the videos from India."

 

794     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Right.

 

795     MR. WONG:  "We want local coverage of our issues and not things that the mainstream media once in a while will pop in on a specific topic.  We want regular coverage."  So we tried to reflect that, based on our consultations with different community groups in these program descriptions.

 

796     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  Can we talk about some of the other local initiatives that you've put forward?  And just to clarify, in the oral presentation today, on page 7, you talked about 1.5 million.  Is that what you, in your application, talked about the 1 million for community grants and 500,000 for scholarships?

 

797     MR. WONG:  That's correct.  The one and a half million is just a combination of those two.

 

798     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  And just so I understand, they're not like the usual benefits package type of grants, which are, say, to organizations like CWC and the Screen Institute?  They're not necessarily broadcasting related; they're to strengthen the community at large?

 

799     MR. WONG:  That's correct.  What we've learned in eight years of consulting with a lot of the community groups is that they have no other sources of funding, but it's so far under the radar screen of mainstream media or other organizations that they can't get funding. 

 

800     So the million dollars, for instance, for the community grants was our way of not only being able to help them, but if there was an opportunity to cover it and give that group or that event some exposure, they work hand in hand and we thought that was a win/win situation for all parties.

 

801     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So is it the kind of program that Multiculturalism B.C. when it existed, or Canadian Heritage would fund?

 

802     MR. WONG:  What the groups are telling us is that it's very difficult for them to get funding.  Some of the examples of funding that we would cover in community grants would be things like the Chinese Film Festival or Asian Heritage Month, SUCCESS, which is the United Chinese Community in Richmond Services Society, which serves over 200,000 immigrants in the Lower Mainland annually.  They have a number of events that, you know, gosh, the more money they can get for the good work they do for the many, many cultural groups would even be better.

 

803     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And the region you're talking about is the Lower Mainland, or people who could apply?

 

804     MR. WONG:  Correct, the Lower Mainland.

 

805     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Are you planning to have published criteria as to what you would fund and how people would apply, and stuff like that?

 

806     MR. WONG:  Yes, we would publish it, make it known to the groups, and we'd also publish that criteria on our website as well so that everyone would know.

 

807     And maybe Wai would -- if you want to just ask Wai Young to maybe give a few more details, because she's the one that's going to be running this for us.

 

808     MS. YOUNG:  Commissioner Cardozo, thank you for the question.  The Community Grants Initiative will involve the expenditure of $1 million over the term of the license.  The local community groups are very excited about this new fund of money.  The reason why, as you probably know, is the local B.C. government is currently cutting back on multicultural and immigrant-serving initiatives.  In fact, they've recently suffered some cuts, as well as federal government, in addition to that.  So this new money is very important and very, very exciting to the local groups.

 

809     This initiative will recognize and support the exemplary work of non-profit community groups in the Greater Vancouver and the Victoria area.  It will be administered by LMtv staff with the advice and assistance of members of the LMtv advisory board, subject to established guidelines. 

 

810     LMtv will invite proposals from community groups for funding.  The selection criteria and the application process will be widely publicized and made available on the LMtv website as Glenn was saying.  Grants will be given to groups which identify the purpose of the grant, target benefit group, identify the desired results of the event or the issue that they're looking at, and propose a budget.

 

811     Specifically these grants will be provided to groups to:  one, increase the awareness of important social issues and concerns.  This can be through the funding of seminars, public meetings or events to facilitate public discussion of important community issues.

 

812     Just last week, in fact, I was contacted by a Chinese community leader who is very concerned about the backlash of the Muslim community here in Vancouver and wanted to gather together a group of people to plan a forum or discussion group on this particular issue.  This is the kind of thing that the LMtv community grant fund would fund.

 

813     And the second thing that the grant would fund would be to support Greater Vancouver and Victoria's culturally diverse communities to strengthen, celebrate or facilitate cross-culture communication of their cultures.  And this is to address the celebratory and the cross-cultural communication aspects that you were questioning earlier, where we would help fund groups, particularly smaller and emerging groups that are just either immigrating to the Lower Mainland and getting their feet wet and establishing, to celebrate their culture and to bring their culture to the larger mainstream community.  Are there any additional questions on this?

 

814     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  You have, thank you very much, that's the kind of information I was looking for.  And certainly, if there are people who are appearing who you've talked to either made commitments or received funding, it would be really useful to hear what they plan to do with those sorts of funds.  It would give us a better idea.

 

815     So I understand clearly that what you're talking about is not necessarily broadcasting but community strengthening overall.  So it's not like a benefits package for us to allow or disallow.  This is quite separate in terms of what you are planning.  And this is one million for the length of the term or one million a year, Mr. Viner?

 

816     MR. VINER:  It's a trick question.

 

817     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  There's a good answer and a not so good answer.

 

818     MR. VINER:  Over the course of the license period, Commissioner Cardozo.

 

819     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I always try to push.  Now, scholarships, those are limited to the Lower Mainland as well, the scholarships program for $500,000?

 

820     MR. VINER:  It's limited but it's really targeted to the four institutions here that have journalism or broadcast post-secondary programs.

 

821     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay, I wasn't clear on that.  I thought it was fairly general in terms of a demonstrated interest in ethnocultural issues but what you're telling me is it's more --

 

822     MR. VINER:  On the scholarships?

 

823     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Yes.

 

824     MR. VINER:  It's very specifically -- I've met with Simon Fraser University, BCIT, Langara College and UBC, and they have journalism schools, and so our partnering with them is that we will provide the scholarships so that students can get a full-ride scholarship is how we sort of modelled it out.  When I actually met with the different institutions they had different ways that they thought it could (inaudible -- off microphone) scholarships, some said graduate students, some said undergraduate students.  My view was, we'll take direction, and if we're successful in obtaining a license, of working with each one of those institutions and tailoring it to make sure that it best meets the needs of those students.  Our interest in this obviously is to develop locally that next generation of ethnic broadcast talent and journalists.

 

825     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I think you have named in the application how many scholarships per year?

 

826     MR. VINER:  There will be two in each of the four institutions and over the course of the seven-year license.  So in total there will be 56 students that will get the full-ride scholarship.  That is the other thing that I have to keep emphasizing.  It's not the one year; it's their entire time at UBC or SFU while they are in that journalism program.

 

827     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  All that for a half a million bucks?

 

828     MR. VINER:  The tuition in B.C. is not bad.  It's actually been frozen for a number of years now.  But again, this is where some of the people at the university said to me there may be other ways of doing this but for our sort of model of how much and how it would be done, that's what we propose.  But they're more than free to come back and say, here's another way of considering it.

 

829     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I had a question on PSAs and that's $500,000 over seven years; is that correct, Mr. Viner?  I'm not just trying to squeeze more out of you but it would seem to me in reality that you'll wind up spending more than $500,000 which comes to something like $70,000 a year.  You would be doing a certain amount of in-house production and stuff like that?

 

830     MR. WONG:  That is correct.  So the $500,000 goes to the independent producers to produce the PSAs.  It leverages into a bigger amount of money because they'll get facilities and feeds and different material from the station.

 

831     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Right.  I take it, Ms. Ziniak, CFMT did incredibly -- it's hard to say incredibly good, but incredibly important series of PSAs on domestic violence; is that the kind of thing you're talking about?

 

832     MS. ZINIAK:  Certainly as far as the content of the PSA, yes, but that certainly was an initiative that I'm sure LMtv will also do.  Whereas CFMT-TV partnered nationally with the federal government in consultation with ethnocultural communities, it took it upon itself to produce the PSA, dedicate the airtime for the PSA, create and print 5,000 posters for that actual initiative and so that includes the fact that we, of course, gave the creative services plus gave the airtime and allowed other stations to broadcast the PSA.

 

833     So that is something that a station, CFMT-TV does that LMtv would also do; however, this initiative is to inspire local producers to have first entry into the production arena and they would actually produce the PSA and those sponsors would pay the producer.  So that goes well beyond other initiatives that the station would undertake.

 

834     MS. YOUNG:  Commissioner Cardozo, could I add something about the PSAs?

 

835     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Sure.

 

836     MS. YOUNG:  This PSA fund was actually developed in consultation with the community groups over the last eight years.  One of the key things that we heard over and over and over again from, particularly, the ethnic and the smaller groups was that our issue and our concern is not being covered by the mainstream media.  How can we have our issue or our agency which provides resources or services to the community, how can we advertise that?

 

837     So in fact, we came up with this half a million dollars for the PSAs so that these community agencies can work with local, independent producers to produce their own PSA, to get their message, their issue, on a PSA which, as you know, can cost a fair bit for a non-profit organization, and therefore, they would own the PSA, they would be able to give it to other broadcasters to broadcast.  This $500,000 as you said earlier, does not include airtime, which would be in addition to.  Thank you.

 

838     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And the same thing here, that interveners, during the course of the hearing, who are interested in this particular project, it would be interesting to hear from them.

 

839     Let me just ask you one closing question on the local presence issue, sort of a wrap-up.  Give me a sense of what you see are the similarities between Toronto and Vancouver and what are the differences in terms of how you see running the station?  I guess what I'm asking you is enusres it's not a Toronto cookie cutter than you're going to be using for Vancouver?

 

840     MR. WONG:  Commissioner Cardozo, LMtv, one of the distinctions we made was we put it right into our name to remind us on a daily basis and that's why we are called Local Multilingual television station.  So with that as our mantra, as I said earlier, I'd be happy to take any of the synergies of acquiring foreign programming and regulatory issues and back office issues from the folks in Toronto.  I think that just makes good business sense because where I want to apply --

 

841     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I'm thinking actually, not so much a synergies issue but more in terms of the community, the demographics, what people want, what are the similar desires that people have here as compared to Toronto and what are the things that are different that people want here?

 

842     MR. WONG:  Well, the similarities are that in both cities the ethnocultural groups, the communities, really want to have a voice.  They really want to be able to have a way of communicating amongst themselves and outside of their groups so that that ethnic experience can be shared.  So I think that's common in both Toronto and Vancouver.  And I think there are some procedures and some policies maybe that would be helpful.  It's all documented in Toronto and we'd be silly to try to reinvent that wheel here.

 

843     The differences are, though, that a bigger portion of our population are made up of Asian immigrants so we very much would reflect that as opposed to what would happen in Toronto.  We have Tamil, Punjabi, Urdu, Hindi, Gujarati as languages that will be in the LMtv schedule because that population is here and there's a need here.  It's not as big a need in Toronto so those languages aren't on the CFMT schedule.  We also reflect Dutch and German in our schedule that aren't on the CFMT schedule.

 

844     So reflecting the different language groups because they're different is part of it.  But I keep coming back to this idea that what people have said to us very consistently in the focus groups, in the round tables, at the grocery store, is that they want their communities to have a local reflection.  And it's not necessarily a bad thing to see programming from other parts of the country, but they want it from a Vancouver perspective.  And it's not just that the mainstream isn't covering it; it's very specifically coverage of issues that ‑‑ you know, the tax disclosure changes proposed by the federal government caused a lot of concern amongst some of the Hong Kong immigrants for instance, and that would be an issue that people wanted more information on. 

 

845     So while I think some of the e and techniques may be similar by city, it really, really has to have a local flavour.  That's why of the 135 staff here, why we really have to have people from the Lower Mainland so that we can reflect that in everything we do.

 

846     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Is there a sense that the multicultural reality of the population is perhaps more ‑‑ been around longer here or more entrenched?  You've had a premier, you've had people in cabinet, you've had people in various types of positions, chancellors of universities and so forth, from various communities.  Is Toronto a little behind on some of these?

 

847     MR. WONG:  Well, I don't want to be ‑‑

 

848     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I know Madeline Ziniak is saying no, no, no.  This is a Vancouver hearing, Madeline.

 

849     MR. WONG:  You know, it's funny.  I lived ‑‑ I grew up in Vancouver and I did my obligatory four years out of Vancouver when I lived in Toronto after I graduated.

 

850     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Was that an enriching experience or not?

 

851     MR. WONG:  It was very cold.  That's all I can remember.  It was interesting to me as a young, visible minority, when I grew up in Vancouver, in my particular neighbourhood, there were no Chinese.  There was no one of colour.  I was the only Chinese kid in my elementary school for many, many years.  When I grew up, though, and went to high school, the city changed and all of a sudden I wasn't alone.  There were quite a few kids that spoke Punjabi, more kids that spoke Mandarin -- sorry, Cantonese, not Mandarin until even more recently. 

 

852     When I moved to Toronto in the early '80s , it felt like I was going back to my youth as opposed to my teenage years.  I felt like I wasn't part of the community and it felt very non-ethnic to me.  So I wouldn't want to say that Toronto is behind.  I think that the differences are that in Vancouver we've obviously had a much greater Asian population and I think that's reflected in our program and it's reflected in our communities.  There is obviously a greater predominance of European immigrants into Toronto.  Italian is a prime example.  So, I don't want to characterize one as better or worse or more developed or less. 

 

853     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  No, I'm not ‑‑

 

854     MR. WONG:  I don't mean that either.  I just think that they're different.  The one thing I do know about the Lower Mainland though, it's very dynamic.  I mean SUCCESS, this organisation that I referred to earlier.  They run this wonderful program and they greet immigrants arriving at the Vancouver Airport and over 40,000 people a year are greeted by SUCCESS volunteers, just to help them.  Imagine getting off a plane, a new country, new language, and they help them in that very first minute they arrive to help integrate. 

 

855     And the change in where the people are coming from, even within the Chinese community ‑‑ I'm sure Mason is dying to chip in here.  You know, it started, obviously in '97 with a big influx of immigrants from Hong Kong, and then Taiwan.  Well, now it's Mainland China.  And so the change from Cantonese to Mandarin, it's a very, very dynamic ethnic make-up we have here.

 

856     You know, Korean and Russian are two language groups that we're reflecting in our schedule, not because they're big because they appear in the '96 Stats Canada census thing.  It's because those are two rapidly growing groups here in the Lower Mainland today.

 

857     I'm sure someone on the expert panel of research knows the exact number of mother tongues and home language.  But in terms of impact in the ethnocultural groups those are two examples of really fast emerging groups here in the Lower Mainland.  So I would just characterize them as different and it just underscores the need to make sure that on a local level, we're reflecting all those really dynamic local changes.

 

858     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thanks.  Ms. Ziniak, you don't want to try to top that.  It's a good answer.

 

859     MS. ZINIAK:  I do, but I've been asked to restrain myself in that discussion.

 

860     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Although maybe you can try.

 

861     Social issues, cultural diversity.  You talked about a media-monitoring watchdog and a portrayal ombudsman of great stature, I think, or something like that.  What are the terms of reference of the ombudsman and what media would it cover?  I take it it's more than LMtv; you're looking at more.  Is it, again, Lower Mainland based, B.C. based?  What's the geographic area you're looking at?

 

862     MR. WONG:  I think I'll let the author and the originator of positive portrayal for us speak to that.  Mason.

 

863     MR. LOH:  Thank you Commissioner Cardozo for that question.  This is an initiative very close to my heart, and I'm really glad that it's in the package.  This happened before any of the things that happened September 11^th and I'm really happy to see the Commission also issue its public notice to the CAB on diversity of representation and those kinds of issues.  I'm really glad to see this development because we've been working ‑‑ people like us working in the community have been struggling with this issue about portrayal of minorities for a long time.

 

864     To answer your question specifically, Commissioner Cardozo, our idea is to appoint a person, as you said, of very high stature, very high standing in the community to be a portrayal ombudsman and then he will then develop a set of guidelines and practices and he will go out to all the broadcasters and encourage them to buy into the concept.

 

865     MADAM CHAIR:  Or she?

 

866     MR. LOH:  Or she, yes ‑‑ I apologize for that ‑‑ he or she.

 

867     MADAM CHAIR:  Speaking of diversity.

 

868     MR. LOH:  -- in British Columbia, all the media in British Columbia to buy into this concept.  It would be up to this ombudsman to work out the whole scheme.

 

869     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  What would be the relationship between the ombudsman ‑‑ what would be the geography, the whole country?

 

870     MR. LOH:  It would be British Columbia, all electronic medias in British Columbia, including LMtv.

 

871     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  How would this relate to CBSC, the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council?  Would there be a relationship to that council, which deals with a lot of the codes, the violence and the portrayal codes and so forth?

 

872     MR. LOH:  Yes, Commissioner Cardozo. I sit on the B.C. Regional chapter of the BCSC, so I'm quite familiar with the work that they do.  They have a lot of codes and practices to govern the industry but there isn't much on this particular issue and it's sorely needed, and that's why we decided to move forward with this initiative to try to perhaps develop this area.

 

873     We know that there are other initiatives happening in other areas of the country.  For example, the Pearson Shoyama Institute is very, very visionary in its development on some of their initiatives and we're working with them also.  But in British Columbia we need to do this as soon as possible.  That's why we have set aside this million dollars to do this right away.

 

874     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  This is a million over seven years or a million a year?

 

875     MR. LOH:  It's over five years, Commissioner Cardozo.

 

876     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Over five years.  What happens after that?  It wasn't just the pressing you on trying to get a million bucks from you for a year, Mr. Viner.  But what happens after that period?  I was thinking more of the second term of license, but what happens after the five years?  How would you see it funding itself?

 

877     MR. LOH:  Well, we hope that in the term of the five years, the portrayal ombudsman has developed a relationship enough with the industry, with all the other broadcasters, maybe there will be other support coming in for this initiative, or maybe there will be other developments on the CBSC front or CAB front that we can work together.  But if it's a worthwhile initiative and it's doing a good job, which we are confident it will, and if funding is an issue, I would look to Tony and --

 

878     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I note that he said he never turns down a recommendation made by the advisory committee so --

 

879     MR. LOH:  You took the words right out of my mouth.

 

880     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  We've clarified that answer, thank you. 

 

881     MR. VINER:  There's little left to be said, Commissioner.

 

882     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I'm just trying to keep all the dots together, you know.  Cultural diversity is obviously reflected very well in your ethnic programming, the 60 percent.  Do you see it reflected in your English language programming, the non-ethnic programming?

 

883     MR. WONG:  We do.  We have five programs that are English and ethnic, our South Asian daily news for instance.  English is an official language in India, so having English daily news service makes perfect sense.  New Monday, which is our South Asia women's show, will also be in English.  Black Canadian Interactive -- the Black community in Vancouver is very active and we've partnered with them and the language is English.  Multicultural Canada, which you've referred to earlier and What's Up, which is a cross-cultural youth program that's in English ‑‑ again, a very sensitive age group that as ethnic kids will share more experiences, and our hope is through that programming they'll be able to have a forum.

 

884     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  How about the American English language, non-ethnic programming, do you see that as reflecting cultural and racial diversity -- it wouldn't be Canadian because it's American, but would you have a Cosby Show or something of that kind so that you're English program was diverse in its content and stories and characters?

 

885     MR. VINER:  It would be a possibility and yes, we would endeavour to do that.

 

886     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  But it's not something that you're planning to do at this point?

 

887     MR. VINER:  Depending on the availability of program.

 

888     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  On the CAB task force that you've mentioned, Mr. Loh, do you intend to be part of that, either CFMT and/or LMtv, and do you intend to contribute financially to it?

 

889     MR. VINER:  Yes, we do.  We see that as a national initiative and of course, it was something released well after we had our community consultations, which, of all of the things that we may have learned from the community, this was very, very high on the list -- positive portrayal.  But we would be in the vanguard of this initiative because of the nature of the programming we provide, so we see ourselves being involved in the CAB initiative and contributing financially to it.

 

890     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  Can I ask you about service to the hearing impaired?  We note that you propose the following commitments with respect to closed captioning, regarding English, non-ethnic programming.  You've committed to closed caption all local news and 90 percent of all programming during broadcast day in each year of the license term.  Was that starting in year one?

 

891     MR. SOLE:  Yes, it is, Commissioner.

 

892     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  You said that such a commitment would also include close captioning of all ethnic programming broadcast in English language such as the five programs you just mentioned.

 

893     MR. SOLE:  That would be immediate.

 

894     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Sorry, that was a yes?

 

895     MR. SOLE:  That would be immediately.  I thought the question was when.  Right away.

 

896     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  Maybe I should direct the questions about more money to you.  You did good on this one.

 

897     MR. SOLE:  I'm quite comfortable right now.

 

898     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  You've noted that you intend -- I just want to read these out very specifically because they relate to potential conditions of license; I just want to be precise in what I'm asking.  You've noted that you intend to caption eight hours of third language programming per week, one hour of German, two in Polish, one hour of Dutch, two hours of Italian and two of Portuguese.

 

899     MR. VINER:  Yes.

 

900     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  On these matters that I've just gone through would you be prepared to accept these as conditions of license?

 

901     MR. VINER:  Yes.

 

902     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  Hey, you're the yes man now.

 

903     MR. VINER:  I'm the condition of license man.

 

904     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  Well rehearsed.

 

905     MR. VINER:  Thank you.

 

906     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I don't mean that derisively.  I know that the poor folks who appear before us do spend several days rehearsing and preparing, so I notice that.  In terms of the other languages with other scripts, Chinese and Arabic and so forth, what is the status of that with regards to closed captioning?

 

907     MR SOLE:  We are at the mercy of technology in that area.  It's moving in different languages at different paces.  The Chinese characters and the Panda technology that we talked about at our renewal is coming along fine but the economics still aren't there.  Where and when we import material from third language producers from outside of Canada, there doesn't seem to be the same initiative in other countries for hearing impaired television.  So that's one of the shortcomings.

 

908     It's our guess that with recent software that's able to do interpretations and so on that this will solve itself.  But at this time, unless it's in ‑‑ I think they're referred to as Arabic figures, meaning the alphabet that we're all -- Roman ‑‑ it's difficult to do.  If there's any accents aigus or anything like supplementary things that must be added to the language, it's more difficult.  You'll notice Portuguese is here.  We have, in the last two years, accomplished some success on our own.  We currently are experimenting with the Panda system at CFMT.  We think that we're a few years away.  But progress is being made and as soon as it is, we will be there.  It is something that we do believe in.

 

909     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Service to the visually impaired.  You'll be aware that we ‑‑ I mean the Commission and broadcasters ‑‑ have made considerable progress with the CTV and Global renewal decisions.  There was some significant commitments made by them, for example, describing two hours of programs in year one of the license term.  Are you prepared to offer the same or commit to the same, rather?

 

910     MR. SOLE:  Thank you.  Most of LMtv's programming will be news and public affairs and much will be broadcast live or within a couple days of being produced so it will be very difficult to offer that in descriptive video.

 

911     Having said that, and from reading up on this and talking to the other two major broadcasters that made the commitment, descriptive video is usually associated with dramatic programming.  So, as we've mentioned earlier, we're going to be financing a number of hours in this first seven years through the Independent Producers Initiative.  We are going to undertake today to do 25 percent of that with descriptive video in the appropriate language.

 

912     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  And with both these issues of audio description and closed captioning, if you buy product that has the accompanying description, you would run that?

 

913     MR. SOLE:  Absolutely.  Absolutely.

 

914     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Do you have any comments to add in terms of the violence and gender portrayal code?  I note quite a detailed approach that you've outlined in Appendix C of Schedule 21 with regards to the steps you will go through to screen material.  The document, the page is entitled programming policies, explicit violence, adult scenes, coarse language and negative portrayal.  Is that a plan that you have in place now?

 

915     MS. ZINIAK:  Yes, it is.  And in fact, that's part of one of our several procedures I would be happy to share with the commissioners.  Specifically, it's part of our ‑‑ also training policy and procedure where not only do we actually produce tapes that we give to new journalists, new producers and new production assistants and directors to share with them in those areas of portrayal, gender portrayal and all the other codes that are relevant.  But I would say that we've started to initiate training in areas of multicultural sensitivity.

 

916     I'd just like to give an example where, at the station ‑‑ and this, of course, would be shared with LMtv ‑‑ such words as, you know, for example, tolerance.  The right word is acceptance.  That's just one example of where we're going with the kind of training that we're doing.  Integration is a good word; assimilation, we don't like to use that word.  But things of that nature is key and part of our training procedures, and we have different sessions within the station that we use not only tape but also volumes of material that we share with our staff.  And in fact, we include our independent producers in these sessions as well, not only those who are employed at the station, but also the independent producers -- presently, as you know, there is 11 at CFMT-TV -- that we include in those sessions.

 

917     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  I take it these guidelines would apply to your 12 midnight to 6:00 a.m. period as well, the infomercials during that time.  r, between 12:00 and 6:00 do you run some programming and some infomercials?  Is that what you plan for --

 

918     MS. ZINIAK:  Speaking of LMtv or CFMT-TV?

 

919     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  LMtv.

 

920     MR. SOLE:  In all likelihood it would be a combination. 

 

921     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And I take it these program policies would affect that time period as well, the midnight to 6:00 a.m.?

 

922     MR. SOLE:  Yes.

 

923     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  The CBSC, you plan to be a member of the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council?

 

924     MR. WONG:  Yes.

 

925     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And with regards to employment equity, you're part of Rogers so you would be subject to the Employment Equity Act, reporting to HRDC, monitored by the Canadian Human Rights Commission?

 

926     MR. WONG:  Yes.

 

927     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thanks very much.  Those cover my questions.  Thank you Madam Chair.

 

928     MADAM CHAIR:  Thank you Commissioner Cardozo.  Well, Mr. Viner, you and I, I've finally found out, have a connection.  I've been called Ms. Condition of License.  But it was somehow not as friendly a comment as was made to you.  We will take a ten-minute break and come back then and my colleagues are so fascinated by all this, they have insisted we sit until 7:00 tonight.  So we will adjourn at 7:00, not 6:00.

 

--- Upon recessing at 1503 / Suspension à 1503

 

--- Upon resuming at 1545 / Reprise à 1545

 

929     MADAM CHAIR:  Before we proceed, Mr. Viner has something to add.

 

930     MR. VINER:  That Mr. Wong will add it.

 

931     MADAM CHAIR:  Something about dollar signs that we will hear about.

 

932     MR. VINER:  Well, I'll ask Mr. Wong.         MR. WONG:  Actually, Madam Chair, I'll do a bad imitation of Mr. Viner and I'll speak.  I just wanted to clarify when I answered to Commissioner Cardozo on the community grants and the public service announcements, you had mentioned maybe the interveners who were promised would talk about it.  There have been no commitments on those funds so there won't be anyone that would be able to talk about an agreement or a pre-specified amount of money.  So I just wanted to manage expectations for tomorrow.  There's been no commitments on those initiatives.

 

933     COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Great, thanks.  Or if there's anybody interested or something, that's fine.

 

934     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Grauer, please.

 

935     COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you. I sort of have a vegetable soup of questions here so I'll start with business plan, synergies, and then I'll get onto some sort of clean-up questions and technical questions.

 

936     I'd like to start with the ‑‑ there's been a lot of talk about the issues around September 11^th and, as you may know, the Conference Board of Canada has issued an update of their report and there are implications for the Canadian economy, and I wanted to know if you had considered what effect these updated economic projections will have on your business plan?

 

937     MR. WONG:  I'd ask Jim Nelles to give you a real specific answer on that, but as you pointed out Commissioner, the events of September 11^th have depressed the advertising market.  Long term, we believe it will turn around and maybe Jim can give some more specific market data from his experience.

 

938     MR. NELLES:  Thank you Glenn and Commissioner Grauer.  Yes we have certainly considered some of those elements in our application.  When we formulated the financials in terms of ad sales revenue and projecting ahead over the next number of years, we realized that we were already in a soft year, if I can put it that way.  So as we look ahead, we try to be prudent.  We also believe though that LMtv is in a position to still be able to generate revenue out of a number of different areas.

 

939     When we look at the way in which we generate ethnic sales revenue, for instance, particularly with reference to Vancouver, we know that we can improve here.  In past years, when we look at Vancouver, roughly two and a half percent of total ad sales revenue against the total market is in ethnic television sales.  If we compare that with Vancouver, I beg your pardon, with Toronto, it's about 5 percent.  So, despite the fact that Fairchild and Talentvision have done a great job, we know that in this market, or we certainly believe and hope that in this market, we can narrow that gap and that's a result of working over a number of years with ethnic advertisers.  And so, in that sense, that's one area that's quite outside the area of the recession in terms of our ability to at least grow.  Clearly, if the market were even more favourable, the results would be greater.

 

940     Another area, if I may, that we want to consider is that old notion of repatriation. 

 

941     COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  You know, maybe what I'd like to do is, I actually have specific questions on those areas and what I really want to do ‑‑ is the September 11^th was since the business plan so really what I'd like to do is talk about how the revised financial projections, if you like, the current economic projections, how you expect that specifically might affect your business plan?

 

942     MR. NELLES:  Well, you referenced the Conference Board.  The Conference Board, I believe, predicts an uptick towards the latter part of next year.  Toronto Dominion Securities says the same thing, or the economic forecast from them says much the same thing.  We have found that ‑‑ as I say, we had already predicted that the current economic environment would be incorporated into our plans.  The days following September the 11^th are difficult to quantify, I grant you that.  But certainly from my conversations with clients, my conversations with advertising agencies ‑‑ and I've had a number of them in the last several weeks, as you can imagine ‑‑ there does not seem to be, other than dislocations in the short-term, there does not seem to be a shying away from the medium of television.  Month by month, quarter by quarter, we may see some dislocations but there does not seem at the present time, other than perhaps in certain sectors, to be a withdrawing from television, as it were.  So we would continue to stand behind the estimates that we put forward to you, Commissioner Grauer.

 

943     COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  So what you're saying is you don't expect the events of September 11^th to impact on your business plans because of the time lag of one year to launch the station, is that --

 

944     MR. VINER:  I think that's part of it Commissioner Grauer, along with -- I'm not familiar with the Conference Board, but I do know that the TD economic forecast that there would have been 3.8 percent growth in the final quarter of 2002 prior to September 11^th and 3.4 after September the 11^th.  The big change, though, is in all of the quarters preceding.  So it will affect, I think, the first year.  We also think that for the reasons that Jim mentioned that the Vancouver market will prove to be more resilient with this sort of television station.

 

945     COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you.  In Section 4.2, page 10, you talk about partnering with ethnic radio stations and community newspapers to reach your ethnic target audience.  I wonder if you could expand on the kinds of arrangements that you would be looking at and whether you've had discussions and what that might look like. 

 

946     MR. NELLES:  Commissioner Grauer, we're using the model from Southern Ontario.  And with a view to LMtv, we have always worked closely with the ethnic press, newspapers, magazines.  We use sponsorship opportunities where we may, where we can, and that has always been one of the most important areas that we, in turn, can, not only platform programs that we have but platform the station and vice versa for the entities that we're working with.

 

947     MR. WONG:  And I guess the other perspective on it, in addition to that, is given that we have a million dollars a year that we want to spend locally to help promote our ethnic schedule, that's our opportunity to partner and work with the other media outlets to communicate to our consumers, our viewers.

 

948     COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Page 9 of Section 5.2, you have your projected viewing hours.  Can you tell me how much of your projected viewing hours will come from viewing to the foreign English language programming segments and how that compares with your experience with CFMT?

 

949     MR. WONG:  I'm going to ask Jim to answer that.

 

950     MR. NELLES:  The share of weekly viewing hours we estimate to be about 2 percent for the station in year one and 2.2, 2.4 in the years two and three.  With respect to the English language schedule, we would be generally in the neighbourhood of six to eight percent share of viewers for those time periods.

 

951     With respect to the third language schedule, the ethnic schedule, it's a much more difficult thing to quantify.  We would generally look at it in terms of ratings, if we may, where many of our programs would do a couple of ratings, and in this market that would equate to perhaps 36,000 people, depending on the demographic, and other programs might do 18,000 people or less, again depending on the demographic.

 

952     COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Schedule 13, page 9.  You estimate that your year one Chinese language revenues would amount to a $1,300,000 while your South Asian revenues would be a million dollars.  Can you explain to us how you arrived at those figures?

 

953     MR. NELLES:  I'd be happy to, Commissioner Grauer.  The annual revenue with respect to the Chinese group or the South Asian group, as it's described there, as well as others, is very much a function of the individual unit rates within which we would sell to those communities.  We look at 40 to 60 percent sell-out rates as we indicate there, which is based on our previous experience.  And the rate cards for the respective communities, because we do design rate cards with community sensitivity and with the notion of supply and demand in mind, would be reflective of that.

 

954     And that's why in the Chinese community, based on our experience and our understanding of the market, we would look at about a million three in annual revenue versus a million dollars in South Asian.

 

955     COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  So that is basically you're taking your experience and knowledge from Toronto and looking at the size of the market here and generating it?

 

956     MR. NELLES:  We're also looking at ‑‑ keeping in mind with respect to Chinese, that we have been selling in the Chinese community for a number of years, and the Vancouver community has a very sophisticated buying process for the Chinese community.  As we build out into South Asian and other languages as we work with advertisers, we will obviously generate greater interest, hopefully greater levels of competition within a given language sector, and supply and demand will once again take over.  But we would be in no way be presumptuous and sort of say, because we have experienced this in one market we would apply it to another.  It's very much with a view to the sensitivities of the Lower Mainland.

 

957     COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  I know.  I didn't mean to suggest that you would do that.  I was really trying to determine how much of this was based on the knowledge that you have from your experience there and then the local market as well.

 

958     MR. VINER:  Just to clarify, I think, Commissioner Grauer, as Jim has said, there's a sophisticated buying process already in place in Vancouver.  We simply tapped into that to find out what the Chinese unit rates were.

 

959     COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thanks.  Tell me something.  There's been an argument that, with the introduction of certain services, maybe not always in television or in broadcasting but in other areas of the economy, that you can grow the pie or grow the advertising market.  Given the issues around the ethnic specialty services and their concerns with respect to revenues, I wonder if you could help us get a better understanding of either your experience of that or how you think you might impact on this market in that way?

 

960     MR. NELLES:  Well, with respect to the ethnic market, it takes some time.  As I've mentioned before, working with individual communities, we have a dedicated sales team on the national level working with large national advertisers.  Those people specialize in being able, first of all, to sell advertisers on the concept of third language television as being very viable.  We've had some success with that.  Since 1987, we have increased ethnic national sales in southern Ontario by over 500 percent.  We'll certainly do the same thing here.

 

961     With respect to retail language sales, we generally hire sales people who, first of all, have an ability to converse with prospective advertisers in their individual communities to invite their trust, to allow them to take the leap into using third language which for many of them ‑‑ on television at least, which for many of them is a very new experience.

 

962     We are always delighted to hear stories and experiences of advertisers who perhaps have used nothing but flyers, which can often be the case in the ethnic markets.  We had a case not so long ago of a client who was absolutely adamant that they only would use flyers because only flyers would yield them success.  When they opened their hundredth store, they agreed that they would try and use ethnic television as a way to reach their consumers.  So the picked a single brand and they advertised in five languages for 12 weeks and they absolutely sold out that brand.  There was no other support, no other collaterals extended to support that individual brand -- it happened to be a packaged product ‑‑ and that resulted in a 20 language purchase over 52 weeks.

 

963     It's those small steps that lead to much larger steps that by extension lead, as examples, to other competing advertisers perhaps, that allow the third language ethnic television pie to grow.  And we really can grow it because, as I started to mention at the outset, we believe it's somewhat underdeveloped in this market, we think it's underdeveloped in southern Ontario as well, but certainly in this case, in the Lower Mainland, it's about two and a half percent of total advertising revenue, as I mentioned, versus the five.

 

964     COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Who would be some of the national advertisers that would be ethnic advertisers, third language advertisers?

 

965     MR. NELLES:  Many of the very same advertisers that you'd find on Global or CTV.  You'd find people like the Royal Bank and the Bank of Montreal, Mazda and General Motors and Chrysler, Procter and Gamble, Colgate.  It's very much the same category of advertisers.  The challenging part is that, at least in the early stages, they may give you a brand.  They might not give you half a dozen brands, as would be the case, or more than that, as would be the case on conventional television.

 

966     Bruce Grondin is with us from the Media Edge.  He may wish to have a comment on that as they purchase on behalf of a number of advertisers.

 

967     MR. GRONDIN:  Thanks Jim.  Yes, we have two of our clients who have purchased specifically Chinese in the Toronto marketplace, Ford Motor Company and Colgate-Palmolive.  Colgate is interesting because they are the number one toothpaste seller in China.  So we've actually looked at bringing over creative for Colgate to see whether we could just pick it up and put it on CFMT.  Unfortunately the packaging looks a bit different in China than it does in Canada so we couldn't use it.  But we believe that if we have very solid programming in Vancouver that those clients will roll their plans and advertise in ethnic in Vancouver.

 

968     MR. VINER:  Commissioner Grauer, only if I can add a -- this happens to be a hobby horse of mine.  National advertisers currently treat us in a special category.  They want to try us; they put us in promotional money.  They can't buy Toronto and Montreal in Vancouver.  They can't buy Toronto and Montreal in Vancouver on an over-the-air basis in the same way they can buy conventional.  They tend not to put us in the regular plans.  So as a result they put us in promotional categories.  As soon as there's a cutback, they don't ‑‑ you know, if they're going to cut back their spending by 15 percent in the market, first thing they cut us back by a hundred percent because we're a discretionary.  They believe that we're a discretionary part of the spend.  So, it's crucial to the development of ethnic television advertising that we have a Vancouver outlet.

 

969     COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Well, those were actually two of my questions.  Number one, do you believe having a Vancouver outlet will increase the amount of advertising for just that reason?  And the other is, is it new additional money that is available in the system for this third language?

 

970     MR. VINER:  I hope I've answered the first one, which absolutely I do believe it.  I don't think you'd see the advertising on conventional Toronto television stations if there was no Vancouver outlet.  If advertisers couldn't reach Vancouver with television, they would spend less, number one.

 

971     I'm sorry, I forgot the second one.

 

972     COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  New.

 

973     MR. VINER:  Anecdotally, I must say that we constantly hear from national language advertisers that they regret that we don't have, why isn't there a station like yours in Vancouver.  So we believe that there's money available to be spent if we had an outlet available.  It's not to suggest that the other ‑‑ Fairchild and Telelatino and others are fine so far as they go but they're interested in a local television service on which to advertise.

 

974     COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  They advertise on both?

 

975     MR. VINER:  On both Telelatino or Fairchild?

 

976     COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Fairchild, yes.

 

977     MR. VINER:  Yes.  They certainly have in Toronto.  I mean, the 500 percent ‑‑ I'm answering Jim's question.  We rehearsed this, Commissioner Cardozo, and I shouldn't answer it ‑‑ but the 500 percent increase that he referred to isn't on our station.  The others have benefited greatly.  Jim, I'm sorry, do you want to get the real figures?

 

978     MR. NELLES:  What do I have to say?  The overall market, as Tony says, has grown since 1986.  Our specific figures at CFMT in national language have grown by I think it's about 300 percent in that time period.

 

979     But to Tony's point, one of the biggest challenges that I have faced and our sales team have faced when we go to national language advertisers who are currently on conventional television, is that if there is only one market, it's very difficult, despite how passionate they may be to get on, it's very difficult for them to rationalize the cost in just one market.  Southern Ontario helps, but they really need Vancouver and they really need other markets across the country and that makes it that much more competitive and it puts it on a level with conventional television.

 

980     So more markets, more spending, and it definitely does grow the pie.  It is one of those instances where we can still say that with the full confidence it will come to pass.

 

981     COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  I do have some other advertising questions and business plan questions, but I wonder if I could just take this opportunity because we're talking a bit about the synergies with the specialties, to talk about some of the programming issues in the sense that one of the things that had struck me this morning from the discussions was that when you're discussing the producers initiative and you're discussing producing programming, drama, documentaries in third language, for which I gather the producers will retain the rights and be able to sell.  Certainly in the English language market there has developed and evolved and I think there's a very strong business case and everybody has benefited from second windows on the specialties, and so there's a what-do-you-call-it, there's a term for it, a ‑‑ I don't know, an ongoing market or something, market, chain, chain, whatever.  And so I just wondered if this is something that you've ‑‑ have you had discussions with any of the specialties about this?  Is this something that they have CanCom requirements?  Is this a realistic question to ask? 

 

982     MR. WONG:  I'll answer first, not so much on talking with other players but really talking with the independent producers.  It is our vision and our goal that we will be able to create that ethnic production industry right here in British Columbia.  And one thing that we have discovered time in and time out after many, many consultations is that there is a wealth of talent in the Lower Mainland, in British Columbia, that have wonderful stories of great content to talk about, great passion.  They're not well funded and they could certainly use help in terms of facilities and production techniques but the passion is there.  So I think that's the core of how this could become something that would provide content, not just for over the air television stations but across the system.

 

983     MR. VINER:  Just to be clear, Commissioner Grauer, these are license fees in British Columbia and then we're committed to license it also in Ontario, and then the producer owns the right so they can sell it to cable, they can sell it internationally.  So have we had discussions with the specialties per se?  No.  But we know they have a voracious appetite, as we all do, for high quality Canadian programming.  So our speculation is that these independent producers will have a ready and willing group of potential customers. 

 

984     COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you.  Schedule 14, you indicate the source of your projected year two advertising revenue.  You estimate that 28 percent of $4.5 million will come from incumbent Vancouver/Victoria television stations and an additional 3 percent will come from the specialties, 3 percent being about $45,000.  Which specialties do you expect those revenues to come from?

 

985     MR. NELLES:  Commissioner Grauer, we'd expect that the revenues from the specialty services would accrue from a number of the specialty services that are being used to get back into the Vancouver market.  Because of the -- and I may ask Bruce Grondin, if I may, to comment on this -- because of the lack of inventory, that is affordable, competitive inventory in this market, and it hearkens back to your earlier question perhaps about recessionary trends and so on, many of the specialties are purchased.  A lot of advertising agencies and a lot of advertisers just need Vancouver but they are forced and routed back to buying a specialty services because it's very inexpensive and they can top up their rating points.  But Bruce may just want to comment on that and perhaps the lack of inventory in this market at the present time.

 

986     MR. GRONDIN:  One of the services that we provide for our clients is to continually monitor what the prices are in broadcasting and the availabilities, and we do this on a every two week, every three week basis.

 

987     The last time we did it was the early part of last week, and we do this for all markets across Canada, and what we've found is even though September 11th, I'm not sure as yet kicked in, but we have found that Vancouver is still a very buoyant market, even though there has been new stations licensed in the market.

 

988     A lot of television advertising is purchased in June for the upcoming broadcast year, and what we've found to date, is when you take a look at the average of the major broadcasters in Vancouver, the price increase today is about 20 percent over what you would have paid in June.

 

989     Some of the programs with limited inventory are looking at a 70 to 80 percent increase over what you would have paid in June as well.  So this leads me to believe that there is inventory out there if you want to pay the price to get local spot weight in Vancouver.

 

990     So as Jim said, what we have to do on our clients' behalf is look at alternative ways to perhaps reach the Vancouver market, and some of these ways is with specialty.

 

991     COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  I'm sorry. At the very beginning I may have missed this.  Which specialties?  Are they ethnic specialty services or are they English language?

 

992     MR. GRONDIN:  Non-speaking English language.

 

993     COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  I wonder if -- no.  I'll go this way.  I had sort of several different areas here.  Now, what I'd like to do is talk about the synergies.  I think Schedule 9, page 5, you talk about the synergies, sales and marketing LMtv and the other Rogers media outlets including CFMT.

 

994     What I'd like to do is sort of have quite a sort of thorough discussion of this, see if we can quantify it, and what is it going to mean to you in terms of the synergies that are achievable.  (Inaudible ‑‑ off microphone)

 

995     MR. WONG:  On the question of synergies, we had talked a little bit earlier, but I think it's worth repeating that quite a bit of the time that would be spent on acquiring foreign programming ‑‑ that's not just U.S. programming, but foreign programming that we could be able to buy on a national basis ‑‑ that's one of the key synergies that LMtv and CFMT would enjoy.

 

996     In terms of help with selling national advertising in third language and in English, you can imagine the challenges of selling to advertisers in 24 different languages.  It's like 24 mini-stations.

 

997     That is a juggling act that will take a lot of time, so the opportunity to combine with CFMT and offer buys for southern Ontario and for the Lower Mainland in a combined market for advertisers, we also see as another important sales and marketing synergy.

 

998     COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  In terms of the programming -- you talked about your foreign programming.  Do you buy the national rights for all of your foreign programming now, or do you sub-license some of those --

 

999        MR. SOLE:  Commissioner Grauer, it's a combination.  In the case of Chinese, we buy regional rights.  For a lot of our dramas and novellas we'll buy national rights.  We've had occasion in the recent past to sub-license some things to Canal Horizon at CanWest in Montreal.  So in that case, the opportunity to buy Chinese film on a national basis would benefit both stations. 

 

1000    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  I was thinking of the English language as well.

 

1001    MR. SOLE:  Well, the English language rights are a combination again.  Generally the daytime programming is bought for Ontario.  Some of the more high profile shows we've had to take the risk and buy national rights and sub-license them in this market.

 

1002    As I've said earlier, the position of buying national rights allows you to spend your money on quality.  It allows you to compete with everyone, and it allows you to get the most potential audience for your investment.

 

1003    And again, I believe that if we are around 30 percent or 40 percent today, it might go up a little bit from there, but LMtv without CFMT would have a difficult time getting audience attractive English programming.  And that's the financial key to repatriating audience from Fox or KVOS or any other premises that have been put on the table.

 

1004    MR. VINER:  Commissioner Grauer, if I can just make a general statement about the synergies.  All of the synergies that we think that will accrue are found in our LMtv application. 

 

1005    Without CFMT, we think the revenues would be less.  We think the programs would be more expensive for it to acquire.  We think any efficiencies that come through a broad buying power, we've tried to put those into our business plan for LMtv. 

 

1006    So it should all be transparent.  We think that on a stand-alone basis, this would be, as Mr. Sole has said, a very different television service, and those synergies have all accrued to LMtv.  I just wanted to, as a general statement, try to put them in, charged extra things, or you know, we're not charging things back.

 

1007    We've assumed that we continue to pay the same price, but if we can -- so what -- when we tried to figure out how much we would pay to acquire programming, it's the incremental cost, and that's what's in here and in our business plan.

 

1008    I just wanted to clarify that one point.

 

1009    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  So then I take it from what you're saying with respect to the English language foreign in particular, that there's first of all, any of the synergies or quantifiable benefits are in the LMtv business plan. 

 

1010    But are you saying that your English language foreign programming will actually -- the quality will improve and therefore the revenues will improve by having two stations and being able to buy more national rights and a better choice?  Is that it, or --

 

1011    MR. WONG:  Sorry.  On two fronts I think that's true.  The other part of it is by buying that better quality or higher rated foreign or U.S. programming and getting higher revenues from that, that's how we will be able to support high quality ethnic television, which as you well know, isn't a money-maker for us. 

 

1012    So the advantage we have of being part of CFMT-LMtv, buying the national rights or getting better quality programming for the English programming allows us to get a higher advertising revenue.  That in turn helps us finance better, higher quality ethnic programming.

 

1013    MR. VINER:  By and large, foreign programming, English programming, American programming is generally sold on a national rights basis, and in order for us to acquire that programming, we have to do deals with people in various markets, and if we can't because they're filled up or because they don't agree with us or they think that the program's not worth what we think it's worth, or they don't have a place to schedule it, or all of those, they say, "Thanks very much, but pass." 

 

1014    And in almost every case that means we don't buy it.  So we end up buying less audience attractive programming, but spending spending money obviously to do that.

 

1015    So no, it's not as if there's -- I just wouldn't want to leave the impression that we'll somehow be lowering our cost of programming in Toronto because we have Vancouver.  It will not happen that way.

 

1016    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  I was just trying to get a good understanding of the impact on your buying and revenues from having two as opposed to one, and to the extent to which you'd buy more national rights, or if it's really quality.  I just wanted to --

 

1017    MR. WONG:  Just to summarize, if I as the general manager of LMtv was trying to do it on my own, I would be at a big disadvantage.  I wouldn't be able to get the quality of U.S. programming, I wouldn't get the advertising revenue, and I wouldn't be able to offer up the quality programming of ethnic television, and that wouldn't be a model of success that I would enjoy participating in.

 

1018    MR. VINER:  Just to be clear, it's in this business plan because if it weren't there, then the costs of acquisition would be much higher and the revenues would be much lower on a stand-alone basis.

 

1019    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you.  I wonder if we could talk about repatriation, my favourite subject.  And maybe perhaps first we could talk KBCB, and I wonder if you could tell me what you know about it, first of all, what it's doing, is it on the air?

 

1020    MR. WONG:  They're not on the air, Commissioner.  We did understand earlier that they had a development permit, and the fact that there was interest in the U.S. to broadcast here multicultural television certainly underscored the demand that was in this market for this service.

 

1021    I would venture to say that if the Commission grants a license to either applicant, than that effort in Bellingham would likely back off and that that repatriation of dollars would happen because a Canadian service was licensed.

 

1022    MR. SOLE:  And I can tell you what I know.  I believe that, depending on the outcome of this proceeding, they'll decide whether they go forward.  They seem to rise up and start soliciting programming and ideas at the end of every proceeding, when a multicultural station has been rejecting.

 

1023    So this may be the time.

 

1024    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Never felt so powerful.

 

1025    MR. VINER:  But I think it is clear they're holding off to see whether a multicultural channel is licensed.

 

1026    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  So, we don't really know what kind of language groups they're planning to do.  We don't have any idea of their programming plans or --

 

1027    MR. WONG:  We don't, and we certainly know they wouldn't have any Canadian content and they wouldn't reflect necessarily local community because they wouldn't be of this community.

 

1028    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  I understand

 

1029    MR. SOLE:  Well, I can speak to the general --

 

1030    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  The repatriation issue I was going to ask you about, not the local programming.

 

1031    MR. SOLE:  Commissioner Grauer, the general model in the United States for ethnocultural television stations is to accept a cheque from a broker and sell the time.  It really is the highest bidder situation historically in California, Hawaii, Texas.

 

1032    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  I guess what I'd like to do is also then pursue the discussion about the non-ethnic market and the repatriation strategy with KVOS.  Can you tell me, do you know any other stations in the market that are selling advertising into this market, and what they're doing, and how they're doing it, and how they're pricing it, and why you think you can repatriate, the extent to which you do.

 

1033    MR. WONG:  Jim Nelles, I'd ask just maybe to speak specifically about Fox and our friends at KVOS.

 

1034    MR. NELLES:  Thanks, Glenn.  Commissioner Grauer, certainly KVOS has been and continues to be the most aggressive in terms of sales to Canadian advertisers in this market.

 

1035    The other stations, to the best of my knowledge, in Seattle, in Tacoma, KCPQ, which is the Fox affiliate in Tacoma, will to some degree sell time.

 

1036    I don't think that in the aggregate they amount to a lot of money.  Typically they will move into this market in a year following a year or two ago when you could not get time in Seattle or Tacoma because the market was so buoyant.  Now they're looking for all sorts of advertisers.

 

1037    I think perhaps a bigger issue, if I can look at it in two ways, one of the issues is the KVOS repatriation issue, which I know comes up at hearings from time to time, but it's very real.

 

1038    The station continues to prosper.  We have pointed to the fact that we believe we can repatriate about 4.8 million dollars by year two of our license through simply being aggressive and doing what we do and counter-programming and so on.

 

1039    But a bigger issue may be one that we have not talked about before, and that is this notion ‑‑ more than a notion, the reality ‑‑ that in the lower mainland, viewers here are watching American border stations between 6:00 and 8:00, for instance, which is a very important time period in English language programming for us ‑‑ at about 29 percent -- they have about a 29, almost a 30 percent share of viewing between 6:00 and 8:00 p.m. Monday through Friday, and that's growing.

 

1040    That contrasts with the situation in Toronto, where CFMT exists, and border stations only have about 8.1 percent, I believe, of the viewing between 6:00 and 8:00.  In fact, I know that's the case.

 

1041    We believe that through skilful programming maybe once in a while we get a simulcast opportunity or we just program more effectively than they do and market to our constituencies properly, that we can bring a lot of that viewership home and in that sense be able to generate inventory in programs that people in the Lower Mainland are watching, that can be sold to retail advertisers and national advertisers here and on a national basis.

 

1042    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  I'm really going to pursue this because I know it seems every hearing I'm at, $5 million is the magic number.  So why is their share so high between 6:00 and 8:00, and do you know if KVOS buys Canadian rights to any of their U.S. programming, and how does that all work?  I mean, I really do want to know. 

 

1043    What are the elements of your repatriation strategy?  Perhaps that's a better way to put it, and what are they doing that you know of?

 

1044    MR. WONG:  I might ask Leslie Sole in a moment to comment on the issues of program rights at KVOS, but I'll certainly be more than happy to speak to the 6:00 to 8:00 time period. 

 

1045    That's a time period when in this market, most conventional stations, as is the case across the country, are running news.  In today's environment there's an opportunity, I think, to get news at a variety of times. 

 

1046    It may be that instead of watching a newscast, you simply want to watch the Simpsons, or you want to watch Friends, or Third Rock, and that's where we see KCPQ for instance, that Fox outlet I mentioned, generating, I believe last fall, over a 10 share of viewing in this market, and that's highly significant and it's growing.

 

1047    We see that obviously it's an important time period for us and it's a very important time period for those stations because they're able to counter the Canadian stations, which are very competitive, certainly in the news genre, but for those advertisers that may be looking for something else, there aren't a lot of other options.

 

1048    So it's worked well.  It can work well in the future here.  It certainly has been a successful strategy for us in southern Ontario, and we're hopeful that it would work well here. 

 

1049    Leslie, you may want to comment on that.

 

1050    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Can I just ask one question?

 

1051    MR. WONG:  Yes, sure.

 

1052    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  So do I take it that nobody else in this market is programming the way you would program in that time period?

 

1053    MR. NELLES:  That's correct, as we speak.          MR. WONG:  And you know, between that 8:00 and 10:00 time period, that's when we're running our daily local news.  So the concept is counter-programming and it's being where they are not.

 

1054    MR. SOLE:  We are more like KCPQ than any local station, and Jim's absolutely right.  It's not the programs you have.  It's when you run them.

 

1055    And on the issue of KVOS, Commissioner Grauer, and whether they buy rights for Vancouver, it's a matter of record.  I think they've been buying rights for well over the last ten years, and I can tell you that because we've discussed selling them those rights.

 

1056    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  I'm sure it's a matter of record, but could you explain to me why they would do that and what it means?  And I ask the question because I really do want to get in this repatriation issue. 

 

1057    Because the other thing, I'll tell you.  I was looking through my notes from the last hearing, and I made a note ‑‑ and I don't know if someone said it at the hearing, or if I read it somewhere ‑‑ it says KVOS is a bottom feeder.  Anybody goes in and starts bidding rights, they won't compete.  They'll always find cheaper, and they can always sell cheaper.  So I don't know what that means and what the implications of that are, but perhaps you could comment on that as well.

 

1058    MR. SOLE:  I'll start with that.  The only reason I say it's a matter of record because I don't want this statement to be attributed only to me if I have to sell something to them in the future.

 

1059    There's nothing wrong with being a bottom feeder.  We've been there.  It's a lonely and it's an interesting life.  KVOS is not going anywhere.

 

1060    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  I wasn't making a judgment about bottom feeders.  I was merely reading a quote.

 

1061    MR. SOLE:  After all, lobster are bottom feeders.  The KVOS signal will be here.  I don't think it's going anywhere.  I think Jim's point to repatriation and KVOS ‑‑ and I've noticed on the cable that it's been migrated to a higher number ‑‑ it's the idea of what we do in Ontario with effective counter-programming in English.  The Fox affiliate in Buffalo is not dissimilar to Q13 or the Fox affiliate that comes into this market.

 

1062    We have an ability through our cross-promotion on our own air, the coverage of local press, anything along that line, the use of retail advertisers, to make a big difference in the availability of advertising inventory for popular programming.

 

1063    So what Jim envisions is partially speculation and it's partially proven by what we've done in Ontario.  I think we're convinced that shortly the rights that are held by KVOS will be -- I guess it will be more difficult for them. 

 

1064    Are they bottom feeders?  As long as there's six American networks, there will be enough room and enough programming.  I think quality would be my message.

 

1065    MR. VINER:  I think, Commissioner Grauer, if I can add, your question is why do they buy rights for the Vancouver market.  They buy it so that nobody else can, so if they retain the rights, we can't buy it.

 

1066    Now, that gives you -- if you do buy it, if you're a Canadian and you do buy it, you have two advantages.  One, you can simulcast.  Between 6:00 and 8:00, that's not that big a deal.  We do some simulcast, but it has to be exactly the same program. 

 

1067    But really, you know, we counter.  If they have the Simpsons and we have the Simpsons, or if we have Frazier and they have Frazier, we can schedule Frazier when we want to.   The audience here can get Frazier on our television station.

 

1068    If they buy the rights to Vancouver, that's the only place you can see Frazier.  I hope I didn't -- 

 

1069    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  That's very helpful.  So just to recap here.  Oh, no, sorry.  I have one other question.  How do the U.S. markets ‑‑  Bellingham, Tacoma, Seattle, Fox, et cetera, and all the others ‑‑ differ from the Vancouver market, and I'm talking here about pricing and inventory.  Why is it that we see -- I think I saw an ad on KOMO a little while ago at night, saying to our Canadian advertising friends, why all that inventory there, and here is it tight?

 

1070    MR. NELLES:  Commissioner Grauer, others may wish to comment, but there's several reasons, certainly from my perspective.

 

1071    The pulse of conventional television, if that's what we describe it as, in the United States, is quite different than in Canada.  Markets are unto themselves.  They're clearly laid out as areas of dominant influence, counties and so on.

 

1072    There is no simulcast from other stations, distant stations, at least on a local market basis.  If you have the Simpsons in Seattle, you have the rights for the Simpsons.

 

1073    Having said that, that gives them some consistency in the ratings.  I know from a national sales perspective, that budgets in the United States are automatically adjusted by 10 percent every two years just to allow for the election period, with every four-year period being much heavier.

 

1074    It's a significant factor, and automatically a national sales representative in New York will be vaulted ahead by 10 percent in terms of expectation.

 

1075    Having said that, we really are looking at a dramatic turn of events in the last couple years, and if we're pointing out Seattle, which has obviously suffered a lot of the ravages of the dot com fallout, it probably almost exaggerates the halcyon days versus the tougher days.

 

1076    KOMO is looking for advertisers now because they need them.  Two years ago you had difficulty getting time on the last station, the lowest-rated station in that market, and of course today that would not be difficult at all.

 

1077    So I think we're merely seeing, particularly in that market, an exaggerated case of the natural supply and demand situation which occurs on a cyclical basis in the United States.

 

1078    MR. SOLE:  I would add one general rule, Commissioner Grauer, and that is if the American market is smaller than the Canadian market, the advantage is greater.

 

1079    In Windsor/Detroit, there's no question.  You can't buy Detroit television to serve a Windsor audience.  In Sarnia/Port Huron, it's irrelevant, but in the case where Buffalo is smaller than Toronto and Bellingham is smaller than Vancouver, the largest number of consumers is the best place to sell your advertising. 

 

1080    And Seattle is comparable to Vancouver.  I think in the future that those stations in Seattle ‑‑ because that economy will come back ‑‑ will not be here selling as much time.  And you'll notice what they are selling in the year 2000 is very much fringe time, very much retail, light viewing, sort of access time.  It's not the prime time.

 

1081    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  So, to sum up, how much audience and revenue -- advertising revenue is 5 million, 4.8 total from the U.S. stations; is that correct?

 

1082    MR. NELLES:  That's correct.

 

1083    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  And audience?

 

1084    MR. NELLES:  Audience would be -- we average about a 3 rating in there, so through that corridor.

 

1085    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you.  I have some technical questions.  The first one is perhaps -- I know you have not applied for a transmitter for Victoria, but could you tell me what your understanding is of the carriage arrangements with respect to Victoria?

 

1086    MR. VINER:  Our vice-president of engineering and technology is coming to the microphone, but I believe that we believe that we would be priority carriage in Victoria.

 

1087    MR. EDWARDS:  Yes.  We have confirmed that the B contour will reach enough of Victoria that it will qualify us for a priority carriage.

 

1088    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  It's enough of ‑‑

 

1089    MR. EDWARDS:  The rule states that the B contour has to cover some of the mark and has to reach the market, as opposed to the B plus 32, where it just has to enclose the cable head end.

 

1090    There's a bit of a history to the ‑‑ you may have a question related to the power of the transmitters.  When we first applied, we were applying for a power something like three times what we're applying for now, and indeed the B contour did cover more of Victoria.

 

1091    By the second time, the Industry Canada frequency plan had been modified to allow for digital television allocations.  At that point, we cut our power back dramatically, but the consulting engineer for CHUM did not.  He chose to treat it as a transition period and he applied for the same power we have this time, and it was accepted by both Industry Canada and the FCC, somewhat to the surprise of Industry Canada.

 

1092    So when we spoke to them this time, they said that their attitude was that that power level was grandfathered and that it would be acceptable for us to use that.

 

1093    That's very good from two points of view.  One, from a spectrum usage point of view, we don't need another channel in Victoria because there will be good coverage over Victoria.  It isn't a brick wall where you have nothing outside the B contour and everything inside.  And secondly, it will save us some capital by requiring only one transmitter site.

 

1094    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you.  I thought I was a technical expert after the last hearing in Vancouver but hadn't covered television.  Have you conducted any studies to find alternative TV channel that could possibly be used if for some reason 42C was not?

 

1095    MR. EDWARDS:  There are a few alternative channels, but they would require a second channel in Victoria.  They could not be made to reach Victoria in any meaningful way.

 

1096    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Would you, if for some reason, 42C in Vancouver was not available, would you be able, ready and willing to use another channel?

 

1097    MR. EDWARDS:  I wouldn't, but maybe somebody else on the team might be.

 

1098    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Okay.

 

1099    MR. VINER:  Yes.

 

1100    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Would there be any impact on your business plan?

 

1101    MR. VINER:  If, as Steve has indicated, providing we could reach Victoria as well, there would be no effect.

 

1102    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Now, this is some of my clean-up questions.  I wonder if you could elaborate for me or define  ‑‑ maybe elaborate is not the best word.  But what we'd like to understand is, what differentiates a producer under your B.C. Independent Producers program from one of your associate producers and then in-house?  What really are the elements of each of those category of producers?  Do you know what I mean?

 

1103    MR. WONG:  Maybe I'll start and ask Madeline to contribute as well.  The B.C. Independent Producers Initiative is for B.C. based independent producers.  So the arrangement there as we've discussed earlier is a license fee that we would pay.

 

1104    We would help in terms of technical facilities and whatever other support we could give, but those are independent producers.

 

1105    Maybe Madeline can talk about the Community Producers Showcase and there are associate in-house producers as well.

 

1106    MS. ZINIAK:  I think the difference can be classified as the community producers are those from the community who either have been producing programs somewhere else, and we're happy to work with them.

 

1107    But also they're producers who perhaps are able to do other things, and many are writers and many are journalists and have taken it upon ‑‑ this is a labour of love.  So whether or not one would classify that as a grassroots producer, they often are involved in many, many other things.

 

1108    Then we have, of course, the associate producers or producers who are employed.  They're part of the 135 individuals, employees from the station.  Those are individuals who are full-time, as Glenn will probably elaborate, full-time producers at LMtv that are dedicated to not only a particular language group perhaps but others as well, and you get into news directors, et cetera.

 

1109    But the B.C. independent producers would be, of course, involved in many other things as well.  The community producer is also one that has the opportunity to work with LMtv, to be supported by LMtv technically, facility-wise, et cetera, but also could be involved in other things.

 

1110    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Maybe I could ask a question here.  So I understand the B.C. independent producer is a producer as we would find independent producers in English language.  They have their own operations.  They get a license fee from you for whatever.  They take their project.  They sell it wherever they want.  They find someone to do distribution, and there's going to be some extra help for them to make some of these projects become a reality, which is your fund.

 

1111    MR. WONG:  Yes.

 

1112    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Then you have the people who work for you, your hundred and some odd employees, some of whom are producers, some of whom are editors and anchors and what not.  And then how does this middle group work?  What else do they do?  How is their program financed?  Is it financed 100 percent?  How is it allocated, and are they the associate producers?  Is that the right (inaudible -- off microphone) community producers, or is there a difference?

 

1113    MR. WONG:  They're not employees.  They work with our associate producers, and maybe --          

 

1114    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Well, associate producers are employees?

 

1115    MS. ZINIAK:  If I just may add, I think the best way to demonstrate this is by the actual existence of the system.  It's (indiscernible) TV.  The Community Producers Showcase will be dealing with independent producers who are from that language group generally, who have done this throughout their careers as a labour of love usually.        

 

1116    They sometimes are involved in other activities, or sometimes they produce also for other languages.  When we've talked earlier, we spoke about, for the sake of clarification, the associates, which we would say also the community producers, because the way we are going to be interacting with them, they are indeed a cooperative venture because we will be supplying production facilities and other kinds of support.

 

1117    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Maybe what we need to understand is what is that support?  Why don't I ask, what's the financial arrangement with them with what they're doing?

 

1118    MR. WONG:  For the community producers, they have 75 percent of the advertising inventory that they can go out and sell and retain, and that presumably goes towards the production. 

 

1119    And maybe if we step back and look at sort of a macro level, the different ways that independent producers can be involved with LMtv, we have the B.C. -- and I don't want to go backwards, but the B.C. Producers Initiative is really likely going to be existing producers that have the capability to meet all the requirements and to complete a production.  The challenge they're having is on funding in third language so we're going to help them out on that part.

 

1120    The community producers may not have been as fully completed in either their skills or their resources to be able to pull off a production entirely on their own.  So they work with our employees, our employee producers.  We'll give them training.  We've given them -- in CFMT's case, Madeline's given them cameras, if that's what it's taken to help them out.

 

1121    And I don't mean this in any derogatory way at all, but at sort of a more entry level, we also have the opportunity through our public service announcements, opportunities for independent announcers to do a specific PSA.

 

1122    And again, in those ones, I imagine, not only are we helping with funding it but also in the production, and it may be more technical and more help overseeing it. 

 

1123    So just to step back, those three levels are three different ways that the independent producers can work with LMtv.  They'll each, I suspect, have different needs and requirements.  So we've tried to allocate money, resources and LMtv staff.

 

1124    The key of it all though for us is we don't want to just sell off the time and broker it out and allow someone else to do something, and they bought the airtime and they pop it on.  That's not our model.

 

1125    MS. ZINIAK:  So if I may add, we would be delighted to work with those producers who are each at the Shaw Multicultural Channel.  They would fall under the category of our Community Producers Showcase, as an example.

 

1126    MR. VINER:  Those at that level, I think, Commissioner Grauer, that we're talking about, I think, not exclusively, but the Shaw Multicultural Channel, that's what this would be for.  We'd let them produce in our studios.  They have our technical directors, our lighting, our cameras, those kinds of things. 

 

1127    Unlike brokered programming, they don't have to buy it so they are at no financial risk, and like the Shaw Multicultural producers who go out and sell to the community, the difference is that they can sell real spots legally as opposed to real spots in the Shaw family.  I won't draw that distinction.

 

1128    So no financial risk, total use of our facilities, these aren't people necessarily that even want to be hired by us.  They're happy being independent producers.

 

1129    The final thing I'd like to say is that my hope would be that someone will graduate from this position to the B.C. Producers Initiative.  Nothing's going to stop them.

 

1130    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  So just one final question.  When you talk about financial risk, what you're saying is they have an idea.  They come to you.  They work with your people.  They don't have to get cameras or studios or anything.  That's all supplied, and they get 75 percent of the revenue.  But do they pay anything?  I mean is there a financial investment on their part in the production?

 

1131    MR. VINER:  They have to spend their own time, and I think Maddie's better to speak to this, but again, we have to contrast this with the situation they find themselves in currently.  They've got an idea.  They've got a program.  And usually before they get the program on the air they go and sell it, because they can't buy it until they sell it.

 

1132    We have said to them, "We'll help you.  You can perhaps conceive of a concept on a program, and then if you sell it, you get 75 percent of it."

 

1133    MS. ZINIAK:  Some may already have their own equipment, but maybe the quality is not sufficient and that's where LMtv will be happy to certainly assist in that area.  So it really depends on the community producer and the level that they're at.  But our intent there is to give emerging communities the opportunity to experience broadcast television.

 

1134    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  So those are the three ways in which people will participate in your station, as an employee, an associate, or a B.C. independent producer, which you license.  Thank you.

 

1135    MS. ZINIAK:  That's correct.

 

1136    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you.  I just wanted to -- when you were talking about the complementarity with Commissioner Wylie this morning, with the ethnic specialties, and I think you discussed sort of cost-access and quality, and there was quite a discussion about quality.  Compared to what?  What were you referring to when you talked about quality?

 

1137    What I was really trying to say is how you fit with each of the elements that exist today.  We have the Shaw Multicultural, we have Fairchild and South Asia, and then we have what you're proposing.  So how --

 

1138    MR. WONG:  Well, maybe I'll start, Commissioner Grauer, and talk about the Shaw Multicultural Channel and how we're complementary to them, given my previous experience with the Rogers Multicultural Channel.

 

1139    The challenge that many of the producers have on the Shaw Multicultural Channel is that it's a very difficult position and you have to be very, very dedicated to be one of these producers, because on the one hand you don't get the benefits of a commercial model to be able to sell advertising and get revenue for the programming.  So that's sort of a financial restriction.

 

1140    The other side of it is that they don't get production or studio facility support.  So they kind of have to bear a lot of costs on their own.  So it's a very challenging role.

 

1141    But because the Shaw Multicultural Channel is a service and not a broadcast undertaking that has a Canadian content requirement, a lot of the programming ends up being in foreign, and a lot of it is dated, and a lot of it is of poor quality, again not only because of the economics.  It's the only thing that in some cases is affordable.

 

1142    Well, just to reflect on the way that makes ethnic people in Vancouver feel, you feel second-rate, and we hear it constantly, that if the only programming I can get in my language is second-rate through no fault of a struggling or a multicultural producer that's trying but is stuck in this sort of model that's difficult to produce quality, the challenge for the community becomes they just feel second-rate.

 

1143    So we believe that by giving quality programming in those languages, and some of which are on Shaw, it's one way of not ghettoizing people who speak third languages as their first language.

 

1144    In terms of Fairchild, we've talked about the accessibility issues so I won't go into that again.  I've been curious to note when, in making public appearances and different interviews by Fairchild as we've talked amongst the community, I bumped into a number of different reporters from Fairchild, but I kept running into the same camera operator.  And I said, "You know, this is the fifth or sixth time in the last couple of months that I've seen you."  And the answer was they have two cameras.  They have two cameras covering the Lower Mainland.

 

1145    Well, in our proposal, we believe we need to have eight.  And so we think that we can get more local quality coverage than some of the other services that are available as well.

 

1146    Madeline, I don't know if you wanted to add to that or comment any further?

 

1147    MS. ZINIAK:  No.

 

1148    MR. LOH:  Yes, Commissioner Grauer, the issue about complementarity of different stations, I'd like to perhaps draw your attention to the market in Toronto.  My understanding, CFMT is in that market, and in conjunction with a slate of other stations, specialty and over the air, whatever, and it does very well serving the market. 

 

1149    It's got its own following just like the other stations have their own followings, and so it doesn't seem like there's a problem.  It seems like they all can do well in the business.

 

1150    And that's what we envision here in Vancouver, that LMtv will be able to do the same as a station that serves a particular market.  Some markets are unsure right now.  They've been unsure for years, but there are some markets which may perhaps be partially served, but the community still wants, for the ones that are partially served, they still want choices.

 

1151    So it's not like one station can serve the whole market or the whole community, especially when we're talking about news and current affairs programs.  It is important to have a variety of perspectives.

 

1152    So that's why we feel LMtv has a real niche in this market.

 

1153    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you.  I'm getting to the end, you'll all be happy to know.  I don't know if I've asked you this.  I don't think I have.

 

1154    Can you give us an estimate of the breakdown of the total ethnic language advertising revenue for each of the various groups of ethnic advertisers you expect to attract?  And for each of these groups, can you indicate the portion of total sales that will come from national versus local?

 

1155    MR. NELLES:  Yes, Commissioner Grauer.  What we did in Schedule 13, page 9 ‑‑ my failing eyesight ‑‑ is we looked at, as we noted earlier, the Chinese group as well as the South Asian group and others.  Others --

 

1156    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Those others that we were --

 

1157    MR. NELLES:  Right.

 

1158    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  -- interested in.

 

1159    MR. NELLES:  Yes.  With respect to the breakdown, just to start off, between national ethnic language advertisers and retail ethnic advertisers, we in the first year have a proportion of, I believe it's 64.8 percent for national language ethnic advertisers, or I'll just call them ethnic advertisers.  And then it goes to 61.2, going out to year seven, where it's about 50/50.

 

1160    Now, it may well be that the retail component as we get out and work with our advertisers, grows faster than we expected, but we want to be conservative here.  Just as we were conservative in our English ratings before, in terms of cost per points and so on, here in the others category and in the national language category as well as the retail language category, we're being conservative.

 

1161    In southern Ontario, we would have about 70 percent of the ethnic advertising revenue coming from the retail component.  In the year one here, we would anticipate, as Tony and others were echoing before, that national advertisers who are currently using Toronto will build out into the Lower Mainland.

 

1162    So we may get a bit of a burst there, and that's why you see a slightly higher percentage -- a significantly higher percentage, really, for national language.  But typically over time the retail component will build and probably surpass the national advertisers -- national ethnic advertisers.

 

1163    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Which is a different ratio than in the English language; is that right?

 

1164    MR. NELLES:  That's correct.

 

1165    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  More like radio than television.

 

1166    MR. NELLES:  That's exactly --

 

1167    MR. VINER:  Yes, exactly.  That's exactly right, less like conventional television, more like radio.

 

1168    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Now, with regard to the community grants, who decides who will receive the money?  Is this part of the advisory board's responsibility?

 

1169    MR. WONG:  It will be in consultation with the advisory board.  Wai Young, who is our Director of Program and Community Development ‑‑ this will be one of her primary responsibilities, to administer it and make sure that the guidelines are published for the various groups to apply.

 

1170    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  And then recommended to the board or (inaudible -- off microphone)?

 

1171    MR. WONG:  Yes, to the advisory board.  Yes.

 

1172    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  (Inaudible -- off microphone) watchdog.  Can you give me some specifics on the watchdog in terms of what exactly they're going to be doing in terms of monitoring who and what and will they be expected to effect change, give reports?  If you could just give me a little more detail on that.

 

1173    MR. LOH:  Thank you, Commissioner Grauer.  The portrayal ombudsman, shall we call him, will have multi functions, dealing with negative portrayal issues in the media, electronic media.

 

1174    One would be to promote sensitivity towards the portrayal of minorities in their electronic media.  There's a second part, is the education and training part, dealing with those medias, and the third part would be a complaint procedure.

 

1175    If there are members of the ethnic minority community or just members of the public who feel that certain coverage in the electronic media is unfair or inaccurate in its portrayal of minorities or their issues, they could file a complaint with this ombudsman, and he will conduct -- he or she will conduct --

 

1176    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  That was very quick.

 

1177    MR. LOH:  Thank you -- will conduct investigation of the complaint and deliver his or her report, make it public, and hopefully with the publication of his report, there will be public pressure or moral suasion on these electronic media to reconsider their policies or procedures or perspectives in future coverage.

 

1178    It's a new thing we're trying on this particular issue, but we think it's urgently needed, especially since September 11th only brings this to the forefront of all the mainstream public.

 

1179    But for people who are ethnic minorities, especially visible minorities, we live with this issue every day.  With September 11th, shortly afterwards, a six-year old Arabic boy asked his mother, "We are Arabic and Muslim.  Are we terrorists?"

 

1180    When these kind of issues are brought forward to the psyche of the general public, we think it's high time that something should be done to deal with this issue.

 

1181    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  So I perhaps didn't phrase my question very well.  Have you set up guidelines yet or determined how many people will be involved, the structure and how it will relate to other broadcasters, and reporting relationship, that kind of thing?

 

1182    MR. LOH:  We envision that this ombudsman office will be very lean and mean.  It will be this one individual who will be the ombudsman perhaps with a secretariat office.  But the idea is to consult with the other broadcasters in the province to request their participation or buy into this whole idea.

 

1183    In terms of policies and procedures, no.  We haven't laid down those.  We believe it's more appropriate that if we are so fortunate to get this license, then we make the appointment of this ombudsman and it's up to he or she to develop those policies and procedures and guidelines.

 

1184    MR. VINER:  Our expectation, Commissioner Grauer, is though that this person -- we're not trying to be coy.  We just can't -- we've spoken to some people and can't make any names public, but that they would have a small -- it's going to be entirely up to that person, but our expectation is they might have a small board with whom they would consult, that there would be volunteers who would be prepared to provide feedback, and that the ombudsman would issue a report.

 

1185    But the principal objective is education.  We have a lot of confidence, being broadcasters ourselves, in broadcasters, and we think that if you draw their attention to the things that are negative portrayal, that in the first instance we have an obligation -- or the ombudsman will have an obligation to educate.

 

1186    If there's no reaction or a repetition, then the assumption is that there will be a more public process. We're not trying to be imprecise in our description, but I think we will leave it to the person that we select.

 

1187    And that person then will be entirely at arm's length from our operation and that structure that that he or she decides upon will be the one that would go forward.

 

1188    MR. WONG:  Just to close, as Tony and Mason both said, educating, we think, is obviously a very important component of this.

 

1189    There's also two hammers that this ombudsperson will have.  He or she will have such standing in the community that if they put their name, on the end of a message and a broadcaster got a call that said this person called inquiring about complaints they've received about stereotyping on broadcast, that that phone call gets answered immediately.

 

1190    And I'm imagining myself of the general manager of a television station not wanting to get that call from that type of person, or that person of that stature.

 

1191    I think the second hammer the person will have is that he or she would, I hope, annually at least, quarterly maybe, publish a list of who's been naughty and who's been nice.  And I would not want to be on the naughty list, particular in this community with 55 percent of our population being ethnic.  I would not want to be in any way recognized or called out as having inappropriate depiction of ethnic minorities.

 

1192    And so the education and consultation, absolutely, positively.  But I think those are two moral suasion hammers that will give this ombudsperson some real clout.

 

1193    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  I have one other question, and I know I had some other papers which were late editions, and I don't seem to have them.  But I know that one of the questions we had was, your revenue projections and the breakdown of the source have changed somewhat since the last application, and I think in particular those revenues that were going to come from specialty services, and I wonder if you can ‑‑ well, perhaps if you could just elaborate on what were the factors that led you to change your revenue projections from then to now.

 

1194    MR. NELLES:  I'd be happy to, Commissioner Grauer.  Perhaps walking through the different components might be helpful. 

 

1195    Certainly when we began this process for this application, we looked at the market to see what had changed, had anything changed.  We referenced the American border stations and their increasing relevance in this market, certainly in those English time periods.  So we tried to reflect that, and that's where that 4.83 million came from.

 

1196    In terms of existing Canadian television stations where we said 28 percent of our revenue would be derived from, that's about 4.5 million.  And as Commissioner Grauer, you're well aware, people will describe this market using various measures.  We used local plus national plus network, because that includes specialty, and as Mr. Grondin referenced, that is a component of it.  We figure it to be about 320 million in total.

 

1197    If we take out the network component, it's a figure somewhere in the neighbourhood of about 226 million.  Even with 2 percent growth, that would accommodate the 4.5 million that we would get, or in theory be taking from the conventional market.

 

1198    And I should point out when I mention that that we're only competing in those corridors which are really almost off prime.  I mean, we do go from 6:00 to 8:00 potentially, and from 10:00 onward. 

 

1199    But the core prime, from 8:00 p.m. till 10:00 p.m., when we're serving the needs of our various ethnic constituencies in the Lower Mainland, the other stations are accumulating -- the conventional stations are accumulating about 55 percent of the rating points.  It ebbs and flows but it's usually north of 50.

 

1200    We're not even a competitor there.  So we feel fairly comfortable in that 4.5 figure.  The specialty services, $483,000 of our year two revenue would be coming from there, and as we mentioned before, that's really English language specialty services.  It's not language specialty services, because that's where we're trying to build out and grow the pie, as we mentioned before.

 

1201    In the English sector, we think that ‑‑ I believe the figure may be a little bit lower than it was before and that's probably because they're so competitive one to another that we don't want to over-estimate what we can accrue back from them.  In time it may be the case.

 

1202    Existing radio services, we have about $322,000 there in year two, for 2 percent, and new revenue brought into the market, into the broadcast industry from advertisers who don't currently advertise on television or radio, that's really addressing the language issue.

 

1203    It's about 1.9 million, and those are advertisers that we want to get to work with and build confidence with and so forth, and have them, as I mentioned before, understand the advantages of using ethnic television, or just working in ethnic television and then building out and seeing how it can benefit their position.

 

1204    And finally new revenue from increased spending by advertisers which currently advertise on existing television or radio services, that's a figure of about 25 percent, about $4 million, a little over $4 million.

 

1205    And that really addresses, in part, the issue of people being able to find competitive inventory effectively sold and validated, affidavit properly.  And we think that some of those advertisers that Mr. Grondin alluded to who may not be able afford this market will come back.  In many cases, if an advertiser gets to the point where the market is just too expensive, if for whatever reason ‑‑ they may have entered it late, instead of being able to buy in June, they have to come in October ‑‑ but it's too expensive for that client to use television, they don't, or they may go to a lower achieve level than their optimum level, or they may say, "You know what?  We just have to look at another medium.  We may have to look at print."

 

1206    So those really are advertisers, and there are many, who would love to have been in television had they had the lead time, but can't afford it.

 

1207    That should tally up and give you a rationalization for our figures, I hope.

 

1208    MR. SOLE:  Commissioner Grauer, I think part of the question was why is there more money coming from specialty television in this application than the prior application. 

 

1209    It's because we know more about it.  We've discovered that advertisers are using specialty services just to reach the Lower Mainland, and it wasn't quite clear at that time.  They were new.  So it's just a matter of learning through time.

 

1210    COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

 

1211    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Grauer.  Commissioner Pennefather has a question.

 

1212    COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Just some clarification.  Thank you, Madam Chair.  On the matter of the producers you were discussing with Commissioner Grauer, the different programs and the different relationships you'll have with the producers, and I may have misunderstood you.  The producers who can access the B.C. Independent fund, these are third language producers, correct?

 

1213    MR. WONG:  Yes, that's correct.

 

1214    COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Who currently don't have access to funding?

 

1215    MR. WONG:  There is no funding available for those producers for third language programming.  That's correct.

 

1216    COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  But they currently are producing in this community.  Where are they producing?  What are they producing for at this current time?

 

1217    MR. WONG:  You know, it really varies.  Some we've talked to have rights that will end up being feature films.  And so those are producers that have obviously great experience, high skill level, but want to contribute to the local community, and the ethnic stories as well.  So that's one group of producers.  I know Robin Mirsky has met with a number of them as well and I'll ask her to sort of elaborate a little bit more.  But there are lots of producers locally that would be more than qualified to --

 

1218    COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And you said previously that they -- some of these producers, are they producing for the Shaw Multicultural Channel?

 

1219    MR. WONG:  Yes, some are currently producing for the Shaw Multicultural Channel.  That's correct.

 

1220    COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I was confused because I think in discussing the Community Producers Showcase, you seemed to indicate that these were producers currently working for Shaw but that they would not be experienced enough to have access to the B.C. Independent Producers Fund.

 

1221    I gather there are people who move between the two components?

 

1222    MS. MIRSKY:  Well, as Glenn said in our discussions with independent producers, we met a number of people who actually produced small documentaries with all their own money.  We've met people who've spent five, six, seven years raising their own money to make their projects.

 

1223    We've also met a number of producers who are ethnic origin, who produce in English, who want to produce in third language, who want to tell their stories to their own communities in third language, but they can't raise money to tell their stories in third language.

 

1224    So some of these producers, as I said, are working as producers.  Some of them have daytime jobs and they do this, sort of work at night, raise their own money, and they make their productions.   They write their scripts at night because they can't support themselves making third language programming at the moment, because the money doesn't exist but the talent does.

 

1225    COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you for that clarification.  On the matter of cultural diversity, we discussed the ombudsperson and the watchdog portrayal committee because of your concern about negative portrayal generally on mainstream conventional television, and I assume all television.

 

1226    So I was a little surprised at your response on the matter of your watching out for cultural diversity on LMtv, should it be licensed, when it comes to the English language programming. 

 

1227    You seemed to indicate that you would not be addressing cultural diversity with that programming.  Why would that be, if your concern is negative portrayal, presumably is that kind of programming about which you are concerned.  I was just surprised at that response and I would assume that the ombudsperson would be looking at all of LMtv's programming.

 

1228    So why are you not addressing cultural diversity with the English language non-ethnic American programming?

 

1229    MR. WONG:  I'm glad for the opportunity to clarify.  It's not that we wouldn't be looking for cultural diversity on the American or U.S. programming, on the English programming.

 

1230    I think the issue for us is we didn't want to be restricted in having the most competitive English programming in order that we can generate the highest advertising revenue, because that fund, that money, that revenue, is what will subsidize the high quality ethnic television.

 

1231    So it's a little bit of, if we were to take programs that didn't have as high a rating, that didn't generate as much revenue but may be more culturally diverse, it would hamper our ability to fund the quality ethnic programming that we're planning.

 

1232    So it's not an either/or situation where we would turn a blind eye to our English programming -- I meant to say that I just want to be in a position where we are at a disadvantage for our ethnic programming, and obviously because we too would be subject to the positive portrayal ombudsperson.  We wouldn't want any negative portrayal on any of our English language programming either.  The same standard would apply to both.

 

1233    COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That last statement was important, because one had the impression up to that point that you would buy anything even if it had negative portrayal, and I'm not --

 

1234    MR. WONG:  That's not the case, and I'm --

 

1235    COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I didn't think that's what you meant.

 

1236    MR. WONG:  Thank you for the opportunity to clarify.

 

1237    COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  One last point, back to what's happening in the production community, do you see the Shaw Multicultural Channel as a complementary service to what you will be proposing in both your producer's workshop and the Independent Producers Initiative?

 

1238    MR. WONG:  Very much so.  I had occasion to talk to some members of the Japanese community as an example, and they had a concern that, "Gee, if you guys get licensed or someone else gets licensed, what's going to happen to the Japanese programming on the Shaw Multicultural Channel?"

 

1239    Well, I believe there are four and a half hours of Japanese programming on the Shaw Multicultural Channel.  The majority of it is news from Japan.  It's foreign, because again, the Shaw Multicultural Channel doesn't have the Canadian content requirement.

 

1240    What we would offer is an additional hour of Japanese programming, just to stay in that example, of locally produced, local issues for the local Japanese community, and my response to that community representative was it's not so much about competing with one another, and people are going to watch one or the other.  It's only four and a half hours of Japanese programming in existence in this market now on the Shaw Multicultural Channel.  We'd be an additional hour so that's five and a half hours.

 

1241    What it really does is give the Japanese community more choices, and both could exist ‑‑

 

1242    COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I was really speaking more from the producersi point of view, and what access they have to airtime and production capacity.  That's fine.  Thank you.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

 

1243    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Commissioner Wilson.

 

1244    COMMISSIONER WILSON:  Good afternoon.  It's been an interesting day, and thanks for all the information that you've given us to sort of enlighten our understanding of your application.

 

1245    I'm going to go back to the repatriation issue, and I just have one question on that.  I'm sure that the reason that I'm asking this has nothing to do with Commissioner Grauer's ability to ask the question.  It probably has more to do with my ability to understand the answer.

 

1246    But how did you get to the 4.8 million?  How do you know that that's there to be repatriated?  Is it an estimate or do you have some way of ascertaining how much money is actually being spent in those U.S. border stations?

 

1247    MR. NELLES:  We --

 

1248    COMMISSIONER WILSON:  Is it common knowledge?

 

1249    MR. NELLES:  It's not common knowledge, I don't believe.

 

1250    COMMISSIONER WILSON:  There are always ways of finding these things out, and I know at other hearings we've heard talk about how much is going into the U.S. border stations, and I'm just trying to figure out how you actually arrived at this in terms of establishing the veracity of the number.

 

1251    MR. NELLES:  Well, Commissioner, there certainly has been a figure of about $30 million for a number of years that has been swirling around, and that may be the common knowledge figure that you're denoting.

 

1252    COMMISSIONER WILSON:  Thirty million dollars that's flowing out of this market.

 

1253    MR. NELLES:  That's flowing out.  That's correct.  That's not just KVOS.  That is on U.S. border stations.  So as we discussed earlier, some years are more fertile for those stations to take Canadian advertiser dollars than other.  And it may still very well be $30 million.

 

1254    From what I can assess currently, all stations in this market are doing fairly well, and I think Mr. Grondin indicated that in his remarks earlier as well. 

 

1255    Our estimate of repatriation comes from two ways, two methods.  One is the development of the rating point breakout that we have filed with respect to the time periods, the 6:00 to 8:00 and 10:00 to 1:00 and so forth, and where we would reasonably expect the dollars to support those ratings to come from.

 

1256    And clearly they are not going to likely go from news hour over to us.  They will come from KVOS, and they will come from that other aspect I mentioned before, of repatriation of viewership, which I think is perhaps even more exciting than just the revenue issue.

 

1257    In past hearings, I know we have discussed the revenue and people have come up with various assessments.  I might point out too that we're a couple of million dollars less than what the CHUM Vancouver application last time had expected that they might garner out of repatriation, in addition to the 2.4 million that they expected their Victoria station to garner.

 

1258    The repatriation of viewership is probably our number 1 objective in terms of getting viewers back, but I do stand fairly confidently behind that 4.8 million figure that we earlier referenced.

 

1259    COMMISSIONER WILSON:  And with respect to the new TV and radio, which is increased spending or people buying television who haven't been able to afford the market, but that's primarily for the English language programming?

 

1260    MR. NELLES:  That's correct.

 

1261    COMMISSIONER WILSON:  Mr. Viner, just to go back to your comment about the synergies, you and Mr. Wong both spoke about the difficulties of being able to achieve this kind of a business plan if you were a stand-alone station. 

 

1262    I wonder if you could just elaborate a little bit more on that.  It certainly makes a lot of sense.  There's a lot of logic in what you've both said in terms of amortizing the costs of programming and all of the synergies being in the business plan as you filed it because of the two stations and being able to buy the rights on a national basis and use the programming, and therefore being able to afford better programming.

 

1263    But how much of a difference would it make to your revenues, for example?  I'm just trying to quantify how much of a difference would it make to your revenues and to your expenses if you were a stand-alone station?

 

1264    MR. WONG:  Maybe I'll ask Tony to comment on the difference it would make financially, because that's his area.  But the area in particular it would affect is on the quality of the programming for the ethnic audiences, and because the community groups here have waited so long for the service, there are high expectations and a strong desire to make sure that the programming that they receive is of the highest quality, because they don't have it now.

 

1265    And it's not a knock on the other services, as I tried to explain, particularly with the Multicultural Channel.  Very talented producers stuck in a difficult model to produce quality.

 

1266    So what we want to be able to do is translate those synergies into quality programming to meet that need.  Tony.

 

1267    MR. VINER:  I'll consult with my colleagues, but essentially if this were a stand-alone operation, it's my view that ‑‑ you're asking me to speculate, but I'm going to ‑‑ that to acquire programming would cost at least 15 percent more, and I don't believe you could acquire the same quality of programming.

 

1268    And if you ‑‑ we said that this woule be about two rating points; is that right, Jim?    You're --

 

1269    COMMISSIONER WILSON:  That 15 percent, would that take into account the notion that as a Vancouver stand-alone you might buy national rights for Vancouver and sell rights to an Ontario station like CFMT?

 

1270    MR. VINER:  Almost impossible to do.  That's really would be the tail wagging the dog.  Leslie is more familiar with the acquisition of national rights than I am, but they currently represent what percentage of the total?  Ontario represents what percent of the total, Leslie?

 

1271    MR. SOLE:  Well, I'd stated they represent 80 percent of the ratings on CFMT.  And Commissioner Wilson, I can't recall the last time that anyone that didn't have a Toronto television station bought national rights, with the exception of Hamilton with CHCH some time ago. 

 

1272    MR. VINER:  And Jim, I would ask you, if the ratings were one less or if the share was 20 percent less, what would the impact be on the revenues, 20 percent decline?

 

1273    MR. NELLES:  It would be greater than 20 percent decline.  Yes.

 

1274    COMMISSIONER WILSON:  Okay.

 

1275    MR. VINER:  It's highly speculative, but that's --

 

1276    COMMISSIONER WILSON:  Okay.  Thanks. 

 

1277    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I have two short questions.  You were discussing Schedule 13, page 9, where you break down what you expect in revenue from ethnic programming into Chinese groups, South Asian group and others. 

 

1278    Let's take the year two, where it's 3.1 million out of a projected 19.6 million total revenue, 1.4 million of which would come from the Chinese group and 1.1 million from the South Asian group.  How is a schedule like that put together?

 

1279    You spoke about how much you could sell for, but how is it put together in relation to the amount of programming in those languages that you will broadcast?

 

1280    MR. NELLES:  Well, Madam Chair, it starts with the schedule, the amount of hours that we would be devoting to a given language, Chinese for example.

 

1281    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  You'll quickly see where I'm going.  So it would be based on the number of hours of Chinese programming you're projecting right now, which is, if I recall, 78 hours a month.  A month?  A week.

 

1282    MR. VINER:  I believe it's 14 hours of Chinese programming.

 

1283    THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it's 78 hours a month; am I correct?  So is that how you would put it together?

 

1284    MR. SOLE:  Seven zero?  I'm just asking the question.  The assumption number on Chinese was how much, Commissioner Wylie, that you're making?

 

1285    THE CHAIRPERSON:  The point of my question is to say when you put this together, you're basing this revenue projection on the hours that you tell us in the actual grid you will do of Chinese programming.

 

1286    MR. SOLE:  Yes.

 

1287    MR. VINER:  We would be prepared to put a limit on those hours too, if --

 

1288    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  I know.

 

1289    MR. VINER:  -- that's where you're going.

 

1290    THE CHAIRPERSON:  But I'm just curious to know how one does this.  Now, where did I get 78 hours a month?  Fourteen hours approximately a week, about 70 some hours a month?  No?

 

1291    MR. SOLE:  Months are very different.  Broadcast months are --

 

1292    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Chinese, 78 hours a month is I think what you said, and South Asian, 78 hours a month.

 

1293    MS. KHAN:  Madam Chair, that would be 14 hours per week, and in a four-week month it would total 56 hours in a broadcast month.

 

1294    THE CHAIRPERSON:  It may be -- I don't know.  I'd have to go back and see how I got these numbers, whether it's from the grid or whatever, but what you do then, is you make up this on the basis of the number of hours that you tell us you will do.

 

1295    MR. SOLE:  Yes.

 

1296    THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that would increase or decrease, depending on whether you increase or decrease the Chinese programming.

 

1297    MR. SOLE:  And where they're scheduled ‑‑

 

1298    THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- an in effect immediately affect your revenue.

 

1299    MR. SOLE:  And what time of day too, Commissioner Wylie.  It's not --

 

1300    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

 

1301    MR. SOLE:  -- just the number of hours.

 

1302    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

 

1303    MR. SOLE:  It's when you schedule them.

 

1304    THE CHAIRPERSON:  So that schedule would be put together looking at what you told the Commission you would probably do ‑‑

 

1305    MR. SOLE:  That revenue was based --

 

1306    THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- with your Chinese programming.

 

1307    MR. SOLE:  -- on that schedule.

 

1308    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Perhaps the staff can show me how they arrived at 78 hours, but I think it's possibly by counting your schedules, which may not be the same as -- for example, we find 67.5 hours of local programming, and your commitment appears to be less than that.

 

1309    In any event, you take what you told us you would do, and you do the grid.  So obviously to close the loop with the discussion I was having this morning, an increase means your revenue is a little better, and there's the incentive that some parties are worried about.  So we can get back to that.

 

1310    Now, would it be true that you said the 64.8 percent national, as opposed to -- wouldn't the retail in large part go to these associate producers?  Isn't that the type of small local stores, et cetera, the type of advertiser that the associate producer would get?

 

1311    MR. WONG:  Yes.  Yes.

 

1312    THE CHAIRPERSON:  But you still think that by the year seven you would be 50/50?  Isn't that what I hear, that you would be a retail and --

 

1313    MR. WONG:  Yes.

 

1314    THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- national would be 50/50?  I think I --

 

1315    MR. WONG:  For the seventh --

 

1316    THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- heard her say would surpass.  That would be true even if you kept the associate program going?

 

1317    MR. WONG:  Yes.

 

1318    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Why would that be, considering that in some of that local programming, you know 75 percent would be not yours to sell.

 

1319    MR. VINER:  It was only 14 hours of it.  There's the rest of the schedule.  Only the 14 hours is --

 

1320    THE CHAIRPERSON:  So in the other programming such as news, et cetera, you would then be able to bring in the retail advertiser to your account?

 

1321    MR. NELLES:  Madam Chair, if it helps clarify it, I think the inventory that is extended to the associate producers would not be included in the numbers that we have because it is their inventory.

 

1322    THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, no, I understand.

 

1323    MR. NELLES:  Or independent producers.

 

1324    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  I was just curious to see --

 

1325    MR. NELLES:  Right.

 

1326    THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- since that's the case, how you would get 50/50.  Perhaps somebody can tell me where that 78 hours comes from while I ask my next question.

 

1327    In the ethnic policy at paragraph 41, the Commission in those paragraphs 39 to 41 talks about local content, and 41 reads:

 

1328    The Commission will expect licensees to report on the progress of their initiatives at their subsequent license renewals.  In that regard it would be helpful for licensees to indicate in their plans how they will subsequently evaluate their progress.

 

1329    Unless I'm mistaken I haven't seen anything like that in your application.  What are you doing, for example, at CFMT when we have your next renewal, and what do you propose to do during your license term if you were licensed to respond to this expectation?

 

1330    MR. VINER:  Well, we'd be happy to file annual reports if that was what the Commission desired.

 

1331    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, it's not something we're inventing today.

 

1332    MR. VINER:  No.

 

1333    THE CHAIRPERSON:  It's in the ethnic policy so presumably that paragraph may be read back to you at the next CFMT renewal.  Well, perhaps you can focus on that because you have a number of initiatives that Commissioner Cardozo was discussing as well, and how much local programming, et cetera.

 

1334    So it may be wise if you were licensed to put early in the license term an ability to report.

 

1335    MR. VINER:  We'd be happy to do that.

 

1336    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, I don't know as what as broadcasters -- it doesn't look like you're doing that at CFMT now, are you?

 

1337    MR. VINER:  We did it for the first license term.

 

1338    MR. SOLE:  CFMT reported to the CRTC on a monthly basis after we became the owners because it was a station in trouble.  CFMT recently has been through a renewal and have been asked to make some adjustment to some exceptions that we've had in the past.

 

1339    I would recommend that in this case that we've presented $30 million in initiatives that you'd like to make sure are coming along the way we said they would, and I would expect that Rogers would undertake to report to the Commission at least on an annual basis on any of the things that you think --

 

1340    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  Well, even if it's not often, the paragraph mentions the renewal.  However, if one doesn't put one's mind to it --

 

1341    MR. SOLE:  Yes.

 

1342    THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- and establish some -- it's difficult to say in year one of the seven years, we did this, that and the other thing, if there hasn't been some thought as to what it is that should be tracked to be able to respond to this.

 

1343    MR. SOLE:  I think we'd be amenable to an annual report of the things that concern you and concern us.

 

1344    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Or even not annual, at least you would be prepared to --

 

1345    MR. SOLE:  On a regular basis.

 

1346    THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- remember that that's there and to establish a grid of some sort that would allow you to track what you're doing.  Counsel.

 

1347    COMMISSION COUNSEL:  Thank you.  I just have a few points of clarification that I'd like to ask.  First, you referred today, and you also referred in your application to written policies that would govern the procedures for choosing among various proposed programming proposals.

 

1348    You also referred to, in your application, a six-step process.  First I just want to clarify.  Would the six-step process be outlined in your written policies?

 

1349    MS. ZINIAK:  Yes.

 

1350    COMMISSION COUNSEL:  And would those written policies apply to both the B.C. Independent Production Initiative to choose the types of programs to be funded, as well as the Community Producers Showcase?

 

1351    MS. ZINIAK:  No.

 

1352    COMMISSION COUNSEL:  Can you elaborate on that?

 

1353    MS. ZINIAK:  There would be additional policies and guidelines for the B.C. initiative that would work adjacent to the existing policies and procedures as discussed.

 

1354    MR. VINER:  Just to be clear, counsel, the ways in which we select programs to go on the air at CFMT is a six-step process.  The ways in which we might select programs to license would be a different selection process, and Robin, I don't know if you're prepared to respond and clarify that.

 

1355    MS. MIRSKY:  The B.C. Producers Initiative will be subject to a separate set of guidelines that will be made public to the independent production community, and that process and those programming or creative decisions will be made by the LMtv programming staff.  They're responsible for the schedule.  They'll ultimately be responsible for what they license for their prime time.

 

1356    COMMISSION COUNSEL:  Okay.  I understand that they will be made public.  I was just wondering if you have any set of written policies that we could refer to now so that we can --

 

1357    MS. MIRSKY:  Appendix --

 

1358    COMMISSION COUNSEL:  -- have a better idea.

 

1359    MS. MIRSKY:  Sorry.  Appendix 8 of the application gives an outline of what those policies would be.  Yes, Appendix 8 of the supplementary brief, and it's Appendix 8, a detailed description of the B.C. Independent Producers Initiative.

 

1360    COMMISSION COUNSEL:  Okay.  You've also referred this morning in the deficiency response to your intention to broadcast foreign ethnic programming, and I just wanted to clarify the number of hours that you would expect. 

 

1361    You have linked this to this five hours of Canadian non-ethnic, and I just wanted to clarify whether the intention was to have a corresponding five hours.

 

1362    MR. VINER:  Yes.

 

1363    COMMISSION COUNSEL:  And also in terms of the Canadian non-ethnic, would those five hours be five original hours, or is that ‑‑ I think in the application you refer -- it's not clear whether it's one hour original and four repeats.

 

1364    MR. SOLE:  I would estimate there would be 190 originally hours annually.

 

1365    COMMISSION COUNSEL:  Thank you, and again with regard to the B.C. Independent Production Initiative, I just wanted to confirm, are you prepared to commit to broadcast each of the 20 documentary and drama productions each year, and I believe you've indicated 165 over the license term?

 

1366    MR. WONG:  Yes, we would.

 

1367    COMMISSION COUNSEL:  I'd also like to clarify the scope of your third language commitments.  When we've looked at Schedule 18, it appears that there's about 52.4 percent third language programming, whereas in Schedule 17 we come with a bit of a different number.  If you could just clarify for us what the commitment is with regard to third language.

 

1368    MR. SOLE:  Counsel, could you clarify?  Are you asking -- could you just ask the question again, please?

 

1369    COMMISSION COUNSEL:  Yes.  When we look at Schedule 18, our calculations have shown that 52.4 percent of the programming would be in third language, whereas when we look at the program breakdown under Schedule 17, we've calculated 46.4 percent.  So we just wanted to have a better idea of what your intentions were.

 

1370    MR. SOLE:  It would be our intention not to exceed the outline in the ethnic policy of 50/10/40.  This is a sample schedule and for the flexibility of the LMtv people.  I would suggest that that 2 percent -- there's a 10 percent cushion where ethnic broadcasters are allowed and encouraged to do programming for ethnic groups in English.

 

1371    I think that we wouldn't want to remove any of the flexibility from the license.

 

1372    COMMISSION COUNSEL:  Thank you.  Now I'd just like to follow up on the $1 million that you've discussed with respect to allocating that money for the promotion of positive portrayal in the media and in your application, and this afternoon you spoke about that money going toward the ombudsman.

 

1373    But this morning as well, you talked about an initiative that I didn't see in the application, relating to the development of a Canada-wide diversity bank, and I was wondering what, of the total $1 million, what percentage of that $1 million would you expect to be allocated toward the development of the diversity bank, the data bank, as opposed to funding the ombudsman?

 

1374    MR. WONG:  Our commitment on the diversity data bank is $100,000 of the million.

 

1375    COMMISSION COUNSEL:  So that's $100,000 over the five years, not each year?

 

1376    MR. WONG:  Yes.  That's correct.

 

1377    COMMISSION COUNSEL:  In your application you've referred to programming coming from CFMT, and that programming would be of Greek, Ukrainian, Italian and Macedonian ethnic origin.  And first I just wanted to confirm, will all your Greek, Ukrainian, Italian and Macedonian programs come from CFMT?

 

1378    MR. WONG:  Yes.  At this point in the schedule ‑‑ or at this point, yes.  As LMtv matures things it would be more dynamic, but that's in our draft schedule.  Yes.

 

1379    COMMISSION COUNSEL:  Okay.

 

1380    MS. ZINIAK:  If I could just add, if certainly there was opportunities in the B.C. Independent Producers Initiative in those languages, those certainly would be welcome, and also the Community Showcase.

 

1381    COMMISSION COUNSEL:  In terms of your commitment to broadcast ethnic programming during the prime time during 8:00 to 10:00 p.m. in the evening, your block schedule indicates 100 percent of that time being allocated to ethnic programming, and I wanted to clarify what you are prepared to commit to by way of condition of license for broadcasting ethnic programming during 8:00 to 10:00 time period.

 

1382    MR. VINER:  Seventy-five percent, Counsel.

 

1383    COMMISSION COUNSEL:  I'd also just like to clarify, and I think you referred to this earlier with Commissioner Wylie in terms of the number of hours for local programming, and in one area we'd seen 60, and this morning in your opening presentation I believe you referred to 65.  So we just wanted to clarify that.

 

1384    MR. VINER:  Well, the commitment would be 60.  We have at CFMT exceeded our commitments in almost every area but we prefer to have a little bit of flexibility.

 

1385    COMMISSION COUNSEL:  And 30 original of that?

 

1386    MR. VINER:  That's correct.

 

1387    COMMISSION COUNSEL:  And just to clarify and confirm, when you refer to local, you're referring to a production that is produced in B.C.?

 

1388    MR. VINER:  Yes.

 

1389    COMMISSION COUNSEL:  I'd also like to confirm the minimum number of third languages that you're prepared to commit to by way of condition of license to broadcast each month?

 

1390    MR. VINER:  Eighteen serving 22 groups.

 

1391    COMMISSION COUNSEL:  Those are all my questions.  Thank you, Madam Chairman.

 

1392    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Also, Mr. Viner, although the Commission has said that the expectation is that the Canadian content will be 60/50, I'm not sure if you're captured by the regulations.  I guess so.  So anyway, 60/50 Canadian content --

 

1393    MR. VINER:  Yes.

 

1394    THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- is what you're committing to.  I know that it's not yet 60/50 in CFMT but if you get a license then LMtv will put CFMT to shame, so obviously it will rise.

 

1395    I want to clarify that the 78 hours is my mistake.  Included in that were other Asian languages, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese and it explains why the additional eight hours.  So I take your point.

 

1396    Now, we will give you the usual three minutes, Mr. Viner, or your colleagues, to answer the questions we didn't ask.

 

1397    MR. VINER:  Certainly, and I will turn this over to Glenn, but as "Mr. Condition of License", I would remind the Commission and we would be happy to accept as conditions of license that more than 20 percent of the 14 hours in the Community Showcase, Producers Showcase would be either Chinese languages or Punjabi.

 

1398    And similarly, the Commission -- you were concerned about the number of hours, and I think the Commission may be concerned about the broad service requirement of the television station and concerned that it might because of financial incentives attempted to move. 

 

1399    And so we would be willing to accept as a condition of license no more than 18 hours a week of Chinese ‑‑ the schedule calls for 14 ‑‑ and no more than 26 hours.  The current schedule calls for 19½ hours of Punjabi, which is the largest of the group.

 

1400    So we hope that that goes to address any concerns that the Commission may have about the maintenance of the broad service requirement.

 

1401    THE CHAIRPERSON:  So that would be four hours more in the Chinese language than we were discussing --

 

1402    MR. VINER:  As a maximum.

 

1403    THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- for your schedule.

 

1404    MR. VINER:  If we get to the situation in the third year where we were producing the Canadian non-ethnic programming, it may be that of the five hours, two of it might be a Chinese movie.  We would like to have that flexibility to move from 14 to 18.

 

1405    THE CHAIRPERSON:  So 14 hours already per week of Chinese language.  That would mean that four hours of the Showcase could also be in Chinese?

 

1406    MR. VINER:  We're willing to accept 18 hours a week on the schedule.

 

1407    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mm-hmm.  Well, we'll see who the interveners will have there --

 

1408    MR. VINER:  Sure.

 

1409    THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- also there, but I guess I certainly made my point.

 

1410    MR. VINER:  I think you did.  And Glenn, I --

 

1411    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is there anything else you would like to address?

 

1412    MR. WONG:  Well, thank you, Madam Chair and Members of the Commission.  It's been a long eight years in getting here today, and this opportunity to appear and to give you our reasons why we seek this license.

 

1413    On a personal level, it's been really gratifying because I've had the opportunity to talk to hundreds and hundreds of people in many, many community groups, and I have been caught up in their enthusiasm.

 

1414    So an awful lot of what you saw today is really a representation -- we've tried to represent their views in designing this station and putting this application together.

 

1415    And one of the things that came out very consistently is they want quality.  They want something that they can be proud of.  They want something that isn't second-rate, because they're not second-rate citizens, and that's a need that needs to be addressed, so the quality of what we offer is something that we will try to achieve.

 

1416    We've tried to demonstrate today that that quality and serving the needs of the communities is best met through expertise and experience, and it's not something that can be gained reading a book or a manual.  It really comes from meeting hundreds and hundreds of people over many, many years.

 

1417    And on a personal level, I'm grateful to Mason and Mobina, who have for so long carried this torch and taught us so much and helped drafting this.

 

1418    As well, my previous experience with Rogers and the way we operate as a company, we are in this for the long term.  This is our business to do this, and it's something that we want to do, and it's something that we have the resources and the expertise to do to carry out. 

 

1419    So we had previous discussions about difficulties and challenges in the advertising market.  We've been through those.  We've been through recessions.  And we believe that we have the resources and the experience to see ourselves through those.

 

1420    We had a really great discussion on synergies on a number of different fronts, and what I hope came out of that is that our ability to put $30 million of benefits back into the system is a direct result of the advantage we have of having those synergies, of having LMtv and CFMT as sister stations.

 

1421    And some of those will come out in terms of the bureaus that we have in the Asia Pacific region and Victoria and Ottawa, and in our two sister stations.

 

1422    And the initiative that my friend, Mason, I know, and Mobina and many others are particularly anxious to get in place is the positive portrayal initiative. 

 

1423    And Indira and I, in going through this, like everyone else that is of colour, of an ethnic background, my wife told me that by doing this I would discover my own ethnicity, and she was right, because you start to remember how you were raised or how you were brought up, and the experiences you have.

 

1424    And so the positive portrayal initiative to make sure that the next generation of children won't go through that, that's a wonderful thing.  Sorry.  Thank you very much.

 

1425    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  We thank you for your cooperation.  It's been a long day, but I'm sure a helpful day.  Don't leave yet.  I want to give both applicants a heads-up about interventions.

 

1426    As you know, some interveners have filed general comments or opposing interventions in both applications, and although they show up twice in the agenda, that is in both applications, we will hear each one of these only once at the beginning of Phase III, and these comments and interventions are indicated in the agenda as numbers 1 to 11 inclusive, in the LMtv application in the agenda.

 

1427    There is an additional opposing intervention which shows up in the Multivan application.  We will then hear that one, and then we will follow with the appearing supporting interventions in the applications as indicated in the additional sheets that you were given this morning.

 

1428    It's been a bit difficult for us.  We can't accommodate everybody who wants to see us.  It's nice to be popular.  So we're trying our best to hear as many people as possible within a reasonable time frame.  So that's what we will do.

 

1429    We will now take a ten-minute break, and allow the Multivan people to come forward.  And I hope you don't think we're asleep, because we're not.  We are tough.

 

--- Upon recessing at 1727 / Suspension à 1727

 

--- Upon resuming at 1745 / Reprise à 1745

 

1430    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Welcome back to our hearing, and welcome to you.  Madam Secretary, please.

 

1431    THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  Item 2 on our agenda is an application by Multivan Broadcast Corporation for a license to operate a multilingual ethnic television station to serve Vancouver. 

 

1432    The applicant proposes to direct programming to 22 ethnic groups in 22 different languages.  The new station would operate on Channel 42C with an effective radiated power of 40,000 watts.  Please go ahead whenever you're ready.

 

1433    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Before you proceed, we will hear your presentation, and then we will start bright-eyed and bushy-tailed at 8:30 tomorrow morning.  Because otherwise, what will happen is we'll start a section of the questioning and it will be interrupted, which will not be efficient for the commissioner concerned and probably not comfortable for you either.

 

1434    So that's what we'll do.  It will obviously be before 7:00, and 8:30 tomorrow morning we'll start the questioning.  So proceed now.

 

1435    MR. LEE:  Good afternoon, Madam Chair, members of the Commission and staff.  On behalf of my friends and colleagues with me today, I would like to welcome you back to Vancouver to join Commissioner Grauer at this important public hearing.

 

1436    We hope you enjoy your stay.  We also hope you will have time this week to see more of our fabulous city and particularly to enjoy its vibrant cultural communities.

 

1437    My name is Bob Lee, and I'm chairman of Multivan Broadcast Corporation.  I'm also chairman of Prospero International Reality Inc. and UBC Properties and UBC Foundation.

 

1438    I was born and raised in Vancouver and have enjoyed witnessing my city blossom into one of the world's most diverse communities.  I've also enjoyed a long association with the University of British Columbia and have been honoured to serve for 16 years as governor and chancellor.

 

1439    Among my many community activities, I'm a director of the Vancouver Foundation, and also chair of the Vancouver Asia Advisory Panel for the Bank of Montreal.  I'm also honoured to be a member of the Order of Canada and Order of British Columbia. 

 

1440    Before beginning our presentation today, I'd like to take a moment to introduce my fellow shareholders, members of our advisory council and support staff who are here with us today.

 

1441    On my right is Doug Holtby, secretary, director and shareholder of Multivan.  Doug was born in Vancouver and brings to Multivan over 20 years of broadcasting experience. 

 

1442    Doug has been a director of numerous broadcast and communication companies over his career, most recently, as president and chief executive officer of WIC.  He has also played a significant role in several professional associations, including the Academy of Television Arts and Science, The Canadian Journalism Foundation, the CAB, and has been a past chair of the CAB Television Board as well as a member of the Industry Canada Information Highway Advisory Council.

 

1443    To Doug's right is James Ho, president, director and shareholder of Multivan.  James came to Canada from Taiwan, and has been a resident of Vancouver for 29 years. 

 

1444    In 1973 he started volunteering for the radio program Overseas Chinese Voice on CJVB, and in 1993, proudly became chairman and CEO of Mainstream Broadcasting Corporation, licensee of CHMB-AM, a multicultural radio station here in Vancouver.

 

1445    To the right of James is Monika Deol, broadcaster and chairperson of Multivan Advisory Council.  Monika moved to Vancouver in 1996 and is active in many volunteer community organizations.

 

1446    Monika is an important contributor and speaks forcefully on education, women's issues and race relations.  In a few minutes she will introduce herself and member of the advisory council on our video.

 

1447    In the second row, to your extreme right is Joseph Segal, president of Kingswood Capital Corporation and a director and shareholder of Multivan.  For more than five decades, Joe has played a leading role in the growth and development of Vancouver. 

 

1448    He has spearheaded several successful business enterprises and has made significant leadership and financial contributions to numerous community organizations. 

 

1449    Joe has held the prestigious position of governor and chancellor of Simon Fraser University for 18 years, and is still chancellor emeritus.  He is a recipient of the Order of Canada, Order of British Columbia, Freedom of the City of Vancouver, and has just received a lifetime achievement award at the Entrepreneur of the Year Awards. 

 

1450    To Joe's right is Geoffrey Lau, who is a president of Golden Properties Limited.  Geoffrey is also a direct and shareholder of Multivan.  He immigrated to Vancouver in 1974 and became a Canadian citizen in 1977.

 

1451    Geoffrey continues to be very involved with various community organizations, including the United Way, University of British Columbia, and the Chinese Cultural Centre.  He is an active supporter of Mount St. Joseph's Hospital, B.C. Children's Hospital and many school projects.

 

1452    To Geoffrey's right is Greg Kane, a partner in Stikeman Elliott, who is Multivan's legal counsel and a person well known to the Commission.

 

1453    On Greg's right is Phillip Moy, director, vice-president and chief financial officer of Mainstream Broadcasting.

 

1454    On Phillip's right is Baljit Sangra, a very talented Vancouver independent producer.  You'll see her and evidence of her talent in a moment because Baljit produced our video.

 

1455    Representatives of our consultants are seated in the third table.  On your extreme right is Greg Meiklejohn of Meiklejohn Marketing.  Beside Greg is Carolyn Butt of Grapheme Koo. 

 

1456    To the right of Carolyn is Gus Schattenberg of Ipsos Reid.  To Gus's right is Jervis Rodrigues of Deloitte & Touche.  Beside Jervis is Grant McCormick of McCormick Telecom Consulting.

 

1457    Finally, I'd like to introduce members of our advisory council.  Some are seated in the audience.  Nat Bosa, Raymond Chan, Shirley Chan, Yulanda Faris, Arthur Hara, Asa Johal, Peter Legge, Peter Newman, Saida Rasul, Lucy Roschat, Farida Sayani, and Bill Saywell.

 

1458    Individually and collectively, they are leading members and tremendous participants and contributors to Vancouver's business and community organizations.

 

1459    Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, I will now begin our opening remarks.

 

1460    We are very honoured to appear before you today in support of our application for an ethnic television service.  The ownership group and the advisory council bring to this application unique perspectives and understandings.

 

1461    Some of us are indigenous to Vancouver and some have adopted the city.  It is home to all of us, the ethnic population of Vancouver, our neighbours, relatives and our friends.

 

1462    We know from living in these communities what we all want and need from a new ethnic television station.

 

1463    Local ownership and control is particularly important in an assessment of multicultural proposals.  Multicultural television is driven by local programming.

 

1464    We live in Vancouver and have an intimate knowledge of the market.  We are part of the cultural group that makes Vancouver the special place that it is.  We are best suited to owning and operating this station to truly respond to the needs of the ethnic audience we will serve.

 

1465    In administering the Broadcasting Act, you as a commission have always encouraged the involvement of local and regional interests in the ownership and direction of broadcasting undertakings.

 

1466    The Commission has stated that it views local participation in the broadcasting enterprise as a means to safeguard community interest and to enable the enterprise to be aware of and respond to the particular needs of the community it serves.  It would be appropriate to take a similar approach in this proceeding.

 

1467    We recognize that this is a competitive hearing.  While a number of other groups expressed an interest, only two applicants remain.

 

1468    Our mission today is to prove to you that our application is the best one for Vancouver.  Only we can provide a service to and truly understand the needs of this unique and diverse Pacific coast city, a city whose ethnic make-up is very different from either Toronto or Montreal.

 

1469    In short, we will demonstrate that we are the best option for Vancouver because Multivan meets and exceeds the expectations of the Commission's ethnic policy.  Multivan provides substantial commitment to local programming and local producers.

 

1470    It is in the public interest to embrace local ownership of a multicultural station by members of the very multicultural community that the station serves.

 

1471    And in the face of industry consolidation and convergence, it is also in the public's interest to ensure a balance in the system, and to encourage new ownership of broadcasting undertakings in Canada.

 

1472    We believe all of this to be particularly true in Western Canada where consolidation has eliminated the greatest number of local ownership voices.

 

1473    The remarkable events over the past few years is that not one Vancouver television station is locally owned.  In Vancouver broadcast history it is the locally owned stations that have enjoyed the greatest success.

 

1474    Why?  Because they have understood the needs and expectations of Vancouverites.  Looking at the history of television in Vancouver, it is important to remember that it was local ownership that started multicultural television in our city in a 1979 decision.

 

1475    Locally owned Vancouver Cablevision received approval to amend its license to distribute foreign produced program on a multicultural channel.

 

1476    Local ownership started multicultural television in Vancouver, and local ownership should continue it and take it to a new level of service.

 

1477    MR. HO:  Thank you, Bob.  Madam Chair, members of the Commission, the proof that Bob spoke of start with programming, the heart of our application.  Our commitment to quality programming begins with the construction of a $13 million state-of-the-art digital production centre and the hiring of approximately 135 new employees. 

 

1478    Through the use of nine news gathering mobile units, two mobile production vehicles and two microwave mobile trucks, our programming will be responsive, relevant, informative, and will reflect the issues and concerns of those living in Vancouver.

 

1479    We will devote in excess of 60 percent of our schedules to ethnic programming.  We will broadcast in excess of 50 percent of our programming in a third language.

 

1480    We will schedule at least 50 percent of our programming in the evening time period as Canadian content.

 

1481    We will schedule a minimum of 60 percent of our programming in the broadcast day as Canadian content.  We will broadcast a minimum of 55.5 hours of locally produced ethnic programming.

 

1482    Seven days a week, Multivan newscasts will provide in-depth local, regional, national and international news, coverage from a Chinese and South Asian perspective.  Multivan news directors and assignment editors will be hired for their sensitivity to ethnic issues and audiences.

 

1483    Overall, Multivan will offer programming in at least 22 languages with approximately ten hours of programming per week being produced by many independent producers that have long been a part of the Vancouver ethnic community and who are very supportive of our application.

 

1484    Airing programs which truly reflect the community that they are intended to serve is fundamental.  It is not possible to actually capture the essence of a community unless one has eyes and ears in the community.

 

1485    It will not come as a surprise, therefore, that we are very proud of our advisory council.  Our council has been created to ensure that our programming truly responds to the various communities we are here to serve.

 

1486    The members of our advisory council are all strong-willed and successful people.  They will make sure we are responsive.

 

1487    In the following video presentation, we would like to share some thoughts on our community approach.

 

         (VIDEO PRESENTATION)

 

1488    MR. HOLTBY:  Madam Chair, members of the commission, the Multivan shareholders recognize the challenges which this company will face.  We have created new companies and have operated successful enterprises in the broadcasting, retail, automotive and financial sectors.  We have each experienced economic downturns.

 

1489    We understand and appreciate the task at hand and we give you our commitment that we will provide the necessary resources and guidance to make Multivan the ethnic television standard for Canada.

 

1490    Commissioners, we are well aware that CFMT, Canada's first multicultural station, floundered financially until it was purchased by Rogers.

 

1491    Similarly, CJMT in Montreal, which was under-capitalized from the beginning, was also in financial difficulty until it was rescued by WIC and subsequently purchased by Global.

 

1492    In both cases, their difficulties resulted not from a lack of passion or commitment but from a lack of adequate financing.

 

1493    Unlike the early days of CFMT and CJMT, however, our application does not suffer from a lack of funding.  In addition to financial stability, we have extensive broadcasting and business experience as well as a realistic business plan.

 

1494    We have made programming commitments which exceed the ethnic policy and have undertaken to ensure that even the English programming aired on Multivan contributes to the overall diversity Multivan will offer to all viewers in the Lower Mainland.

 

1495    We have made significant commitments to local programming and local news.  We are very pleased to have the support of so many independent producers.

 

1496    We are excited about the programming they will create, and we look forward to supporting and furthering their creative efforts.  We have demonstrated through our absolute commitment to a strong and influential volunteer advisory council that this is an application for the community and by the community.

 

1497    In this era of consolidation and in order to meet the requirements of the Broadcasting Act, it is extremely important to maintain as many voices as possible in the Canadian broadcasting system.

 

1498    There should be balance in the system, and we will provide it.  We have the commitment, the resources, the experience, and the passion to ensure that Multivan is a complete success, setting a new standard of excellence for ethnic television in Canada.

 

1499    We understand and appreciate the task before us should we receive your approval.  You have our commitment that we will meet or exceed all of the promises and commitments we have made to you and to our fellow citizens of Vancouver.

 

1500    Madam Chair, commissioners, as members of multicultural Vancouver, we can't emphasize enough how important this proceeding is to us.

 

1501    Your decision will determine our ability to safeguard and celebrate our cultures.  The license you will award represents an expression of trust to serve the public interest, and we would be truly honoured if you would grant that trust to us.

 

1502    Thank you for your attention, and we await your questions tomorrow, I hope.

 

1503    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Lee and your colleagues, and I guess I'm back appreciating videos after seeing yours.  I'm referring of course to the teasing I'm engaged in with the environments people about the value of videos.

 

1504    We will see you then at 8:30 tomorrow morning, and we will proceed in about the same type of blocks as we did this morning so that you're -- know in advance.  Have a nice evening all of you.  We'll adjourn then until 8:30.

 

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1810, to resume on Tuesday, October 16, 2001, at 0830 / L'audience est ajournée à 1810, pour reprendre le Mardi 15 octobre 2001 à 0830