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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE
THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS
COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION
DES AUDIENCES DEVANT
LE
CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET
DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT
/ SUJET:
Various broadcasting applications /
Diverses demandes de radiodiffusion
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Quartz Ballroom Quartz Ballroom
Matrix Hotel Matrix Hôtel
10001-107th Street 10001-107th Street
Edmonton, Alberta Edmonton (Alberta)
June 3, 2008 Le 3 juin 2008
Transcripts
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur
les langues
officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le
Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page
couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à
l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un
compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel,
est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux
langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée
par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian
Radio‑television and
Telecommunications
Commission
Conseil
de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes
Transcript / Transcription
Various broadcasting applications /
Diverses demandes de radiodiffusion
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Elizabeth Duncan Chairperson / Présidente
Rita Cugini Commissioner
/ Conseillère
Candice Molnar Commissioner
/ Conseillère
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
Cindy Ventura Secretary / Sécretaire
Lyne Cape Hearing Manager /
Gérante de l'audience
Véronique Lehoux Legal Counsel
Conseillère
Juridique
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Quartz Ballroom Quartz Ballroom
Matrix Hotel Matrix Hôtel
10001-107th Street 10001-107th Street
Edmonton, Alberta Edmonton (Alberta)
June 3, 2008 Le 3 juin 2008
- iv -
TABLE
DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE / PARA
PHASE I
PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:
Aboriginal Multi-Media Society of Alberta 1225 / 8138
Don Kay (OBCI) 1257 / 8370
Rogers Broadcasting Limited 1346 / 8959
John Charles Yerxa 1411 / 9369
Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Limited Partnership 1483 / 9801
Edmonton,
Alberta / Edmonton (Alberta)
‑‑‑ Upon
commencing on Tuesday, June 3, 2008 at 0905 /
L'audience
débute le mardi 3 juin 2008 à 0905
8133 THE SECRETARY: Good morning.
8134 We will now
proceed with Item 18 on the Agenda, which is an application by Aboriginal Multi‑Media
Society of Alberta for a licence to operate an English and native language FM
Type B native radio programming undertaking in Edmonton.
8135 The new station
would operate on frequency 98.5 MHz, Channel 253B‑.1, with an effective
radiated power of 9300 watts, non‑direction antenna height of 162 metres.
8136 Appearing for the
applicant is Bert Crowfoot.
8137 Please introduce
your colleague and you will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
8138 MR. CROWFOOT: Thank you very much.
8139 To my left is
Allan Standerwick, the Director of Radio for Aboriginal Multi‑media.
8140 Good morning,
Commissioners. My name is Bert
Crowfoot. I am a Siksika Saulteaux from
the Siksika Nation of the Blackfoot Confederacy in southern Alberta. My Indian name is Cayastoya(ph) or Bear
Ghost, which is one of my great‑great grandfather's names, and I am very
proud to carry his name.
8141 This morning I had
a smudge to ask the Creator that I might be able to stay the words to you that
will best convey the message that we want you to hear.
8142 So the Aboriginal
Multi‑Media Society, or AMMSA, is a not‑for‑profit
corporation communication organization that consists of several divisions. In addition to CFWE, The Native Perspective,
AMMSA publishes Wind Speaker, Canada's national aboriginal newspaper, as well
as provincial community news magazines, Alberta's Sweet Grass and Saskatchewan's
Sage.
8143 Through the
Buffalo Spirit Communications Foundation we produced a television pilot last
summer for OMNI Television called The Quest of Buffalo Spirit, and it will be
aired in the fall of 2008 in both English and Mandarin languages.
8144 AMMSA's mandate is
inclusive of all aboriginal groups in Canada, including First Nations, Métis,
Inuit and nonstatus Indians. With this
presentation we will describe our proposal to expand the native radio network of
CFWE.
8145 For reference, our
application is comprised of three parts:
the addition of a regional transmitter site to serve the aboriginal
population of the Edmonton region; the addition of a transmitter to serve the
aboriginal population at Fort McMurray; and the application for a Type B native
radio licence.
8146 Prior to
describing the reasons for the need to expand our network, it would be
beneficial to provide the history of CFWE.
8147 AMMSA celebrated
25 years of community service in March of 2008.
We are committed to the continued development and promotion of the
heritage of Canada's aboriginal peoples through increased access to
communications.
8148 AMMSA established
CFWE in 1987 specifically to serve the aboriginal population located throughout
Alberta. Initially the distribution
system was unique through an arrangement with CBC TV in Edmonton. The audio from the daily program known as The
Native Perspective was broadcast by CBC TV weekday mornings. We were known as the radio station on
TV. The Native Perspective was heard in
aboriginal communities throughout northern Alberta.
8149 On August 31,
1987, CFWE‑FM made its initial broadcast to the town of Lac La Biche,
Alberta, from a transmitter site located on the roof of a building across from
the studios. This was to signal the
start of a new method of communicating with aboriginal communities in Alberta.
8150 Distribution of
The Native Perspective program weekday mornings to remote communities via the
CBC TV network continued simultaneously.
However, the limitations of this arrangement were becoming apparent.
8151 CBC network
scheduling changes were making it impossible for AMMSA to reach its programming
commitment of 20 hours per week as specified by the Northern Native Broadcast
Access Program, NNBAP, which provided the funding for this program.
8152 In 1989 an
alternative signal delivery system was established and was comprised of a small
network of low powered FM transmitter sites all receiving CFWE program via
satellite technology. Ten communities in
northern Alberta were selected initially.
8153 In 1990, 19
communities were added to the CFWE network.
8154 On November 1,
1991 the agreement between CFWE and CBC to air The Native Perspective program
ended. This added to the urgency to
which CFWE pursued satellite distribution.
8155 To compound the
problem, CBC, via CBC, was the only radio link for many communities.
8156 An additional 19
communities were added to our network in 1991.
This network now consists of 48 FM sites serving 55 communities
throughout Alberta.
8157 Several of the
communities expressed interest in producing their own programming through
community radio. Working with these
community stations enables CFWE to strengthen the communication with rural
areas by sharing information with the rest of the province.
8158 In 1993 AMMSA
relocated the studios of CFWE to its administrative offices in Edmonton. The primary purpose of the Northern Native
Broadcast Access Program was to provide radio to isolated or underserved
aboriginal communities. Given the number
of communities and budget limitations, it was necessary to use low‑power
FM transmitters.
8159 While this type of
installation does provide the community with radio, it limits the signal
coverage to the central part of the community only. Consequently, reception is poor or
nonexistent for those people who live some distance from the centre of a
community or travel between nearby communities.
8160 In 1990 the
federal government cut back on funding for the Northern Native Broadcast Access
Program. It also completely eliminated
the distribution program that helped expand our radio network, and it also cut
the Native Communications Program that funded our print operations.
8161 AMMSA's print
operations have since become self‑sufficient and Radio Bingo was introduced
in 1996 to generate revenue to continue the expansion of the distribution of
the radio network.
8162 The low powered 10
watt transmitters fulfilled our need to introduce CFWE's signal into northern
communities, but many of our listeners were frustrated with the range of the
low power transmitters. Plans were
developed to replace several low powered FM sites with one regional high power
FM transmitter which would include signal coverage significantly.
8163 Standoff in
southern Alberta was the first community to have this system installed in 1998
to provide coverage to the Blood Reserve and Peigan Reserve. A second system was installed in the spring
of 1999 at Joussard near Lesser Slave Lake.
8164 This higher
powered system enabled CFWE‑FM to replace VLP FM very low power FM sites
in the communities of High Prairie, Grouard, Sucker Creek, Driftpile, Joussard,
Kinuso, Slave Lake, Peavine Métis Settlement and East Prairie Métis Settlement.
8165 A 100,000 watt FM
site was installed in the Moose Hills Region of northeast Alberta in 2002. This high powered FM site brings signals to
the aboriginal communities of Cold Lake, Elizabeth, Frog Lake, Fishing Lake,
Kehewin, Saddle Lake and it also serves the communities of St. Paul, Bonnyville
and the City of Cold Lake.
8166 It should be noted
that CFWE has essentially been operating as Type B native radio since we
launched the FM sites at Joussard and Porcupine Hills in 1998.
8167 CFWE is keenly
aware that the aboriginal people are increasingly moving from smaller rural
communities to the larger urban centers.
There are likely many reasons for this, but the numbers shown in the
most recent census indicate that this trend is likely to continue as aboriginal
people seek out greater opportunities for education, employment, health
services, and so on.
8168 Urban aboriginal
population figures from the Statistics Canada Census data indicate that
Edmonton ranks second only to Winnipeg and it continues to increase
steadily. Pegged at over 52,000 in 2006,
recent estimates indicate that the figure could be approaching 58,000, due in
large part to the city's post‑Census surge in economic activity.
8169 With respect to
northeastern Alberta, 10 per cent of the population of Fort McMurray in 2006
indicated they are of aboriginal ancestry.
This figure does not factor in the considerable number of temporary
workers migrating to the Wood Buffalo region to work in the oil sands.
8170 CFWE continues to
grow its network to keep pace with the movements of aboriginal people. It is critical to point out that we are not
switching our priorities or switching our broadcast service, that being of
Alberta; we are simply planning to expand our provincial radio network.
8171 CFWE wants to
continue serving the needs of the audience we have developed over the past 21
years but also giving urban aboriginal listeners an opportunity to hear a
friendly and familiar voice they may have heard months or years ago when they
lived outside of Edmonton or Fort McMurray.
8172 In many respects
the aboriginal culture and traditions are followed more routinely in rural
regions and less so in the urban environment.
CFWE will serve as a cultural link for urban listeners. We envision CFWE as a hub that connects
listeners from a variety of aboriginal communities together.
8173 The audience of
CFWE is extremely loyal and our intention is not to dramatically change or
overhaul our programming in anticipation of our expansion to include urban
listeners. On the contrary, CFWE's
unique radio programming and aboriginal cultural content will be a welcome
change for aboriginal listeners now living in the Edmonton area.
8174 We have produced a
three‑minute clip of what our sound has been over the past years and we
would like to play at this time.
‑‑‑ Audio clip /
Clip audio
8175 MR. CROWFOOT: If you were wondering, that was our moose
calling contest that we hold every year and he did the bull and calf.
8176 Anyway, the early
stage of satellite distribution program sharing played a significant role. Several native radio stations that were part
of NNBAP, including CFWE, were responsible for the programming during certain
portions of the broadcast day. This
often included the use of translators.
At that stage of our development and coverage, it made sense offering
listeners a variety of aboriginal culture.
8177 However, the
languages broadcast from other stations did not represent the majority of
people listening to CFWE and resulted in significant tune‑out. Dayparting language based on programming and
an introduction of new programs that directly include listeners, such as Phrase
of the Week, allow us to broadcast aboriginal language throughout the network
with risk of alienating the listener.
8178 I must emphasize
that our proposal does not include a separate local program to feed either
Edmonton or Fort McMurray with this application. Our local is the province of Alberta. To shift our focus away from our existing
market and concentrate on either Edmonton or Fort McMurray will alienate and
destroy our bond with your existing listeners.
8179 Aboriginal people
in rural Alberta know about CFWE. For
many it is their connection with home, a familiar voice speaking about people
or locations they know. As they visit
family on other Reserves or settlements, they stay connected with CFWE.
8180 These family
members are now starting to relocate in urban centers for employment
opportunities or education and to Fort McMurray to participate in the oil sands
development. Without a signal to serve
Edmonton or Fort McMurray, the connection is lost.
8181 As I stated, the
program feed to proposed transmitter sites will be identical to that which is
distributed to our existing network. Our
goal is to remain the same only on a larger scale, provide programming that is of
interest and culturally relevant to the aboriginal people residing in Edmonton
and Fort McMurray.
8182 The resources we
have at our disposal, both financial and human, are better utilized by
concentrating and expanding the program we currently produce. We have demonstrated since the inception of
CFWE our ability to adapt and present programs and music that appeal to a
predominantly aboriginal listenership.
Lifestyles may vary depending on where one lives, but the values within
our listeners remains constant.
8183 One reason for our
success to date is that we listen to our listeners.
8184 Although a
description of our music format is outlined in our supplementary brief, I will
repeat the salient points today.
8185 The general format
of CFWE is listed as Country. The
majority of our current listeners were raised listening to this genre of
music. It also mixes more naturally with
the music of many of the aboriginal artists we play. We acknowledge that some musical selections
will be the same as that that is broadcast on commercial radio. However, our focus will continue to be the
aboriginal listener who grew up listening not only to Country music but to
aboriginal artists who never played on commercial radio.
8186 We are not
concerned with the charting hits and high turnover, nor do we actively pursue
new music from established acts. We do
not use slogans like Today's Hot Country or The Best of Yesterday and
Today. Our station slogan, The Native Perspective,
will continue to be used. It does not
promote, let alone mention, a format.
8187 Some of the music
we play might appeal to a smaller portion of the incumbent station's share
initially until musical selections that are only familiar or of interest to an
aboriginal listener are broadcast in the same music set.
8188 Likewise, news and
announcements that are broadcast during Country music programming are presented
targeting the aboriginal listener of Alberta, which will have little appeal or
relevance to the non‑native listener in an urban market.
8189 In addition to
aboriginal artists, a portion of our current playlist is dedicated from
independent emerging artists seldom played on commercial radio, at least until
these artists have established themselves or are assigned by a major
label. This has been our experience that
some of the music from these emerging artist complements our playlist nicely.
8190 Musicians who
perform other styles of music that do not mix with Country format are not
excluded from airplay. Their music is
scheduled at other times when the focus is more contemporary. Music from aboriginal musicians is often
added to our regular Country playlist, thus increasing the exposure of the
song.
8191 As a point of
fact, CFWE was promoting and playing Shane Yellowbird, a musician from Hobbema,
Alberta, long before he charted mainstream.
8192 I must also
mention that CFWE is a member of the Western Association of Aboriginal
Broadcasters, WAAB, which includes five broadcasters from the Northern Native
Broadcast Access Program. These five
broadcasters include Native Communications Inc. from Manitoba, Missinipi
Broadcasting from Saskatchewan, Aboriginal Multi‑Media Society, CFWE,
Northern Native Broadcasting Terrace, CFNR, and the Northern Native
Broadcasting Yukon, CHON‑FM.
8193 We have been
programming sharing for the past year and are looking at more shared
programming in the coming year.
Quarterly meetings are held with all members to discuss strategy, share
ideas and resolve problems.
8194 An example of
shared programming is a live call‑in show on residential school
survivors. This program will be produced
out of NCI Winnipeg and broadcast to all 250 transmitters of the WAAB network
located in western Canada and Yukon.
8195 I am hopeful that
I have demystified some of the confusion that is native radio. We are proof that native radio works.
8196 We respectfully
ask for your approval of our application to serve aboriginal listeners in
Edmonton and Fort McMurray.
8197 Hei‑hei(ph).
8198 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Crowfoot, for your presentation.
It is informative.
8199 Commissioner
Cugini is going to lead the questioning.
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank you, Madam Chair, and good morning.
8200 I have to say I do
appreciate the history of CFWE that you provided in your oral presentation this
morning. This is the first time that I
have met you, so I certainly do appreciate the background.
8201 Your oral
presentation does bring up one issue of housekeeping.
8202 You say on page 3
that the network now consists of 48 FM transmitters and, according to our
records, we have a list of 35. So I'm
going to ask you, just for the sake of efficiency, if you could file with us a
complete list of the 48 sites, perhaps by end of day tomorrow.
8203 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8204 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Is that doable?
8205 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8206 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Terrific. Thank you.
8207 Now, we are going
deal with your application in two parts.
First we want to deal with the application for the addition of
transmitters in Fort McMurray and Edmonton.
8208 I guess at the
outset I do have to make it clear and acknowledge that these applications are
severable in that we could approve Fort McMurray and deny Edmonton, vice versa,
or in your worst case scenario deny both.
8209 Do you acknowledge
that that is in fact what is in front of us?
8210 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8211 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Okay. Thank you.
8212 If we approve
either Fort McMurray or Edmonton, you would become a Type B native service.
8213 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8214 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: So, as a result, we are going to
go through some very specific programming proposals that you have in your
application, just so it's clearer to us and that we have a complete
record. So bear with me.
8215 Of course, you
understand that it is because your .5 mV contour would overlap with commercial
stations in Fort McMurray and/or Edmonton that you would become a Type B?
8216 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8217 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: So from your application we know
that AMMSA operates CFWE‑FM, a radio station with studios located in
Edmonton and that the programming is distributed via satellite. Of course, you went through great detail
today in telling us that.
8218 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8219 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Do you consider the studios in
Edmonton to be your main broadcast centre?
8220 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes and no.
We only have one studio and that's where we produce it, but most of our
listeners are in the north.
8221 So I guess the
answer is yes.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8222 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Okay. So it is all produced at the studios in
Edmonton ‑‑
8223 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8224 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: ‑‑ and the staff is located in Edmonton.
8225 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8226 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you.
8227 MR. CROWFOOT: Sorry, I'm a little ‑‑
8228 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Hey, so am I.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8229 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Would that change? For example, if we were to say yes, we
approve the transmitter in Fort McMurray, would that cause you to move that
broadcast center to Fort McMurray?
8230 MR. CROWFOOT: No, it wouldn't.
8231 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: It would stay in Edmonton
regardless of what we do.
8232 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8233 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Okay. Thank you.
8234 Now, I know that
in your oral presentation you did say that you are not going change the focus
of your programming; that that is not your intention. You are not going to overhaul the
programming. But if we do approve Fort
McMurray and/or Edmonton, you would now go into the largest centers in Alberta
that you would be serving.
8235 So you don't see
yourself as competing at all with any of the incumbent Country music stations,
the commercial stations in those markets?
8236 MR. CROWFOOT: No, not really, because most of the listeners
that we have are aboriginal. I mean, I
have a friend who was listening to us in St. Paul and they ‑‑
I mean, it's sad to say but he said "I love your programming because you
have no commercials".
8237 He said, "You
know, I'm listening to great music and all of a sudden a pow‑wow breaks
out." So because our traditional music is kind of mixed in with our
regular stuff, it's ‑‑ we are not Country.
8238 A lot of our music
is Country. On Saturday nights we have
Hip Hop, we have Rock, because in some of the isolated communities the youth
have no other signal to listen to. So we
are their source of entertainment on those nights.
8239 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: And that is common. I mean, I know that that's kind of the format
that Aboriginal Voices Radio, for example, adopts as well, in that there is a
mix of different genres of music.
8240 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8241 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: You said you don't have
commercials.
8242 MR. CROWFOOT: No, we do.
We try to have commercials.
8243 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Right.
8244 MR. CROWFOOT: I mean, since 1990 when we lost funding from
the federal government, one of our goals was to become self‑sufficient. At that time 80 per cent of our funding came
from government funding.
8245 Today our budget
is probably five times what it was in 1990, and now 86 per cent of our revenue
comes from other sources other than ‑‑ out of a $3 million
budget, $326,000 comes from the federal government for radio programming.
8246 We also have Radio
Bingo which generates $1.5 million a year, and that is what we funded our
distribution expansion, is with those revenues.
8247 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Okay. What percentage of your revenue, if we grant
you Fort McMurray and Edmonton, do you believe will come from advertising in
those centres?
8248 I know you are not
limited as a native radio to the amount of advertising but, again, it is just
for the sake of completeness of the record.
8249 MR. CROWFOOT: I would probably say that of our total
revenue, about 30 per cent of it, 40 per cent of it, comes from
advertising.
8250 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: When you say 30 per cent, are
you factoring in both Fort McMurray and Edmonton?
8251 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8252 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: And if we were to grant one and
not the other, do you have a split of how much advertising would come from just
Fort McMurray or just from Edmonton?
8253 MR. CROWFOOT: Most of the advertising that we would get
from those communities we are already getting.
8254 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Okay.
8255 MR. CROWFOOT: For example, we have a lot of government
advertising, we have advertising from native organizations. So a lot of, I guess, the clients that we
currently serve are located in those areas.
8256 So that's why I'm
having trouble with numbers.
8257 So for us to go
after other clients that we don't currently have I don't think would make up a
very large portion of the amount of advertising that we do carry right now.
8258 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Okay. You did offer share projections in your
application and they are quite modest.
They go from 0.1 per cent in year one to just 1 per cent in year seven.
8259 When you came up
with those share projections, did you include both Fort McMurray and Edmonton?
8260 MR.
STANDERWICK: Yes, we did.
8261 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: How much of a difference would
that make if we were to approve one but not the other?
8262 MR. CROWFOOT: It wouldn't be significant.
8263 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: In your application you say that
20 per cent of all your musical selections will be performed by aboriginal
talent.
8264 Is that Canadian
aboriginal talent?
8265 MR. CROWFOOT: Most of them are Canadian. We do have ‑‑ with
aboriginal people we don't really recognize the line, you know; like aboriginal
people are aboriginal people. So if
someone is from the States and they know people up here, then we would play
them.
8266 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Would you accept that 20 per
cent level as a condition of licence?
8267 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8268 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: What proportion of your musical
selections are in aboriginal language?
8269 MR. CROWFOOT: Are in aboriginal language?
8270 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Yes.
8271 MR. CROWFOOT: Approximately 5 per cent.
8272 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: And would you accept that as a
condition of the licence?
8273 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8274 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you.
8275 You just spoke
about how some of your programming in the evening does skew younger. Again, bearing in mind that we could approve
Fort McMurray and/or Edmonton, do you think that that would change at all?
8276 MR. CROWFOOT: No.
8277 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Not at all?
8278 MR. CROWFOOT: No.
8279 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: One more condition of licence with regards to
music.
8280 As a Type B
service would you agree to a condition of licence that requires that a minimum
of 35 per cent of the musical selections from the content Category 2 music
during each broadcast week be devoted to Canadian content?
8281 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8282 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you.
8283 We are going to
move on to spoken word.
8284 In your
application I see that you have agreed already ‑‑ so this is
an easy one ‑‑ to a condition of licence that you will provide
seven hours of aboriginal language spoken word programming.
8285 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8286 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Okay. Is this the amount of aboriginal spoken word
programming that you currently broadcast?
8287 MR. CROWFOOT: We currently carry about five hours.
8288 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: So you would expand this to
seven hours.
8289 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8290 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Is that dependant on approval of
both Fort McMurray and Edmonton?
8291 In other words, if
we were to approve one but not the other, would you still expand to seven
hours?
8292 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8293 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Would you expand to seven hours
if we denied both?
8294 MR. CROWFOOT: No. I
mean, we would continue to do what we're doing.
8295 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: You would keep it at five?
8296 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8297 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Okay.
8298 MR. CROWFOOT: I mean, our eventual goal is to provide as
much as we can, but because we have so many aboriginal languages ‑‑
we have seven different language groups ‑‑ and for us to carry
a predominantly Cree language, then what would happen is the others would start
tuning out.
8299 So we have always
tried to walk that fine line. That's why
we do a lot of our programming in English.
We also do programming like Phrase of the Week, where we would say,
"How do you say this in Blackfoot?
How do you say this in Cree? How
do you say this in Chip? How do you say
this in Dogrib, Slavey, Dene?"
8300 So those are the
things that we have tried to do. So we try
to balance the amount of programming just to try to keep our listeners with us.
8301 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: It's almost the challenges of
programming an ethnic service ‑‑
8302 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8303 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: ‑‑ when you are trying to serve a number of languages
and a number of groups.
8304 Again, if we were
to approve either Fort McMurray and/or Edmonton, do you see that the focus of
the spoken word programming would change in any way to attract more of an urban
aboriginal population?
8305 MR. CROWFOOT: No. I
mean, as in the presentation, we are trying to keep hold of those listeners
that we have that moved to the city.
8306 We had a call one
time from a person who was actually in Europe who was listening to us on the
Internet and he e‑mailed us and said that it was so nice to hear just the
slang, the languages and that sort of stuff from home.
8307 So that was a
connection that was made via the Internet.
8308 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: You are talking about aboriginal
people who have moved to the urban centres, but what will attract the
aboriginal people who have been living in Fort McMurray and Edmonton for a
number of years to your station if you plan on keeping the focus of your spoken
word to more of a rural aboriginal population in terms of residence?
8309 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes. A
lot of the people that move still have connections to where they came
from. Their family still reside.
8310 During some of our
request lines we have callers call in and say I would like to dedicate this
song to, and they will list probably 80 relatives throughout the province. So a lot of them do listen to those sorts of
things.
8311 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Okay.
8312 Now, you did
mention in your oral presentation that you have been sharing programming ‑‑
8313 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8314 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: ‑‑ with other native broadcasters.
8315 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8316 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: How many hours, approximately,
of the shared programming is on your schedule right now.
8317 MR. CROWFOOT: We do approximately four hours. One of it is the Top 30 Aboriginal Music
playlist that is produced out of NCI in Manitoba, but we all play it. We also do the talk phone‑in show for
our residential school survivors.
8318 We meet on a
quarterly basis and try to look at what programs we have that would be of
interest to all of us.
8319 We are also
looking at maybe one of the options is to have, in the off hours when we are
not on the air, a network feed that would cover the entire network.
8320 So those are the
different ideas that we have explored.
8321 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: And you would anticipate that
this level of approximately four hours would continue?
8322 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes, or increase.
8323 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Or increase.
8324 Do you source
programming from any other radio stations, other than native broadcasters?
8325 MR. CROWFOOT: No.
8326 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Okay.
8327 I believe in your
application you also stated that you offer a number of hours of religious
programming.
8328 MR. CROWFOOT: On Sunday mornings we have approximately
three hours.
8329 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: And are these Canadian?
8330 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
One is, I'm sorry.
8331 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Are these programs that you
produce?
8332 MR. CROWFOOT: No, they are pre‑produced by the client.
8333 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Okay. You do know that sometimes the Commission
will impose conditions on licence for balance and ethics in religious
programming. Basically we want to ensure
that a balanced set of views is expressed over a reasonable amount of time on
matters of public concern.
8334 With this in mind,
I will read to you the text of a potential condition of licence and will ask
then if you would agree to it.
"Where the applicant broadcasts
religious programming as defined in the Religious Broadcasting Policy, Public
Notice CRTC1993‑78, dated 3 June 1993, the licensee shall adhere to the
guidelines set out in Section 3B.2.(a)..."
8335 Usually this is
what the lawyer does.
"... and 4 of that Public
Notice with respect to the provision of balance and ethics in religious
programming as amended from time to time."
(As read)
8336 Will you accept
that as a condition of licence?
8337 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8338 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you.
8339 Now, at this time
we are going to address something that may be unpleasant and that is in the
event that we decide to deny both Fort McMurray and Edmonton.
8340 In your oral
presentation, you say on page 5:
"It should be noted that CFWE
has essentially been operating as a Type B native radio since we launched the
FM sites at Joussard and Porcupine Hills in 1998."
8341 So is that an
acknowledgment ‑‑ I need to know if that is an acknowledgment
on your part that effectively the denial ‑‑ regardless of Fort
McMurray and Edmonton, you are now operating as a Type B native service?
8342 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8343 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Then ‑‑ and she
will correct me if I'm wrong ‑‑ as opposed to asking you to
file with the Commission an application for a native Type B service, will you
agree to the conditions of licence that we have just gone over that would be
applicable to your current service regardless of Fort McMurray and Edmonton?
8344 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8345 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Will you agree to those
conditions of licence?
8346 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.
8347 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Well, I would like to thank you
very much.
8348 Those are all my
questions, Madam Chair.
8349 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Crowfoot. I have no questions.
8350 Counsel...? No?
8351 Thank you very
much. We appreciate your presentation.
8352 we are going to
take maybe a 10‑minute break.
8353 Oh, you are
entitled to two minutes, to be consistent with everybody else, if you're
interested.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8354 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Even I forgot this time. I apologize.
8355 THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if you want to take two minutes
to sum up?
8356 I'm sorry, I just
overlooked offering it to you.
8357 MR. CROWFOOT: I guess I said most of it in my presentation,
but our goal is not to change our programming but to be able to reach more of
our people that have moved to the urban centres. I think that connection, as I explained with
the person on the Internet, is important when people are not located here; that
they can be able to listen and still get a sense of where they came from, to
hear familiar voices, to hear the slang of the communities.
8358 I mean, when I
listen to people, like I know there from Hobbema, I know they are from certain
parts of the province just the way they speak, the way they look. We are not on television so we can't really
use those things.
8359 But I think it's
important that we continue to reach those people in the cities and be able to
continue to do the work that we do.
8360 One of our goals
is to become self‑sufficient, but I don't envision us affecting the other
broadcasters when it comes to revenue.
8361 That's all I have
to say, unless Al has something he would like to add.
8362 MR.
STANDERWICK: No.
8363 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, both.
8364 We will adjourn
for 10 minutes just to allow the next panel to set up.
8365 Thank you.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing
at 0945 / Suspension à 0945
‑‑‑ Upon resuming
at 1000 / Reprise à 1000
8366 THE
SECRETARY: We will now proceed with Item
19, which is an application by Don Kay on behalf of a corporation to be
incorporated for licence to operate an English language FM commercial radio
programming undertaking in Edmonton.
8367 The new station
would operate on frequency 107.1 MHz, Channel 296C‑1, with an effective
radiated power of 40,000 watts, non‑directional antenna, antenna height
of 272 metres.
8368 Appearing for the
applicant is Don Kay.
8369 Please introduce
your colleagues and you will then have 20 minutes to make a presentation.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
8370 MR. KAY: Good morning, Madam Chair, Commissioners, Members
of the Commission.
8371 Some of you have
been here long enough in Edmonton to become residents now. Welcome to our city, the City of Champions.
8372 My name is Don Kay
and I will be managing partner of the station we are calling The Planet
107.1. Over a period of 20 years I was
on‑air, Assistant Program Director, then a sales representative and
finally they made me Sales Manager at CHED here in Edmonton, which used to be
right across the street.
8373 Subsequently,
Moffat Communications asked me to manage stations in Winnipeg and in
Hamilton. We returned to Edmonton in
1994. Since then I have worked as a
radio programming sales and management consultant from here in Edmonton.
8374 When the
Commission issued its call for applications, well, it was like a dream
opportunity for me to apply for and maybe even be awarded a radio licence in
Edmonton. Now, I knew that to put a
credible application forward to you I would need some help, so I would like to
introduce you now to the team that brought this application forward.
8375 My very first call
was to my good friend Jim McLaughlin.
8376 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: Good morning.
8377 MR. KAY: I have known Jim for many years. He was my colleague here at CHED, me in
programming, Jim in news. Eventually he
became my boss, as he went on to become the Vice‑President of Moffat
Communications Group of Radio Stations.
In that capacity over the next 15 years he was also still very involved
with CHED and the Edmonton market.
8378 Jim chaired the
CAB's Radio Board for four years. He
also chaired the BBM Radio Board for four years. Some of you may not know, but Jim was one of
the original founders of what we now know as FACTOR.
8379 Jim then
introduced me to Sukhvinder Badh. Suki,
as everybody calls him, is a Professor of Economics at Simon Fraser University
and at Douglas College in Vancouver. He
is actively involved in Vancouver on a community, regional and national
level. He has been serving on the
Western Economic Diversification Committee for over two years now.
8380 Suki and Jim had
put together a team to apply for a licence in Vancouver, as you recall maybe
back a few months ago in February. So I
decided to pick from them and get some good help.
8381 That included
David Oakes of Oakes Research who I had worked with many times over the years
with Moffat and whose research is exceptional.
David has over 30 years of experiencing, researching Canadian, U.S. and
international radio markets, and he undertook the research that led to our
format choice for The Planet 107.1.
8382 I already knew Liz
Janik by reputation. Liz is one of the
pioneers ‑‑ I see a couple of people smiling up there. She is one of the pioneers of Alternative
radio from her beginnings as an announcer on CFNY‑FM in Toronto. Liz has worked as a programmer and consultant
in many radio formats, including Alternative radio in both Canada and the
U.S. Most recently she developed the 100
per cent Canadian music station on SIRIUS Satellite Radio. Liz has served on the board of the Canadian
Women in Communications and, should we be fortunate enough to win this licence,
Liz will be moving to Edmonton and be a very integral part of the station as
our Vice‑President of Programming.
8383 I also knew that
we needed some local Edmonton helped to put together a good news team, so I
reached out again and found Penny Craig.
Penny has spent more than 20 years in communications. Eight of those years were at CHED and K‑Rock,
both here in Edmonton. Her most recent
focus has been within Edmonton's health related nonprofit sectors. If we are successful, she will be the News
Director of The Planet 107.1.
8384 Now, I know radio
inside and out, but I needed to find someone who knew the Edmonton music scene
to help me put together and develop a meaningful package of Canadian content
development initiatives.
8385 Barry Allen. He is a native Edmontonian who has been
active in the music industry since he was a teenager, starting out as a
recording artist and becoming an acclaimed record producer. Barry has operated his own recording studio,
Homestead Recorders, since the mid‑1980s.
He has worked with a wide range of Canadian recording artists and
particularly Edmonton and Alberta artists in almost every music genre there
is. Barry has served on the board of
Music Alberta.
8386 We also needed
someone to make sure that everything gets done and gets done on time, and that
person is Jaspreet Gill. Jaspreet is
multilingual, currently works as the Marketing Manager of The Source/La Source,
B.C.'s English/French newspaper which is dedicated to cultural diversity. She will be responsible to oversee our CCD
implementation and our outreach for the various cultural communities.
8387 To round out our
panel, we retained Robert Buchan of Fasken Martineau as our legal counsel.
8388 Also here behind
me, not sitting on the panel, but my son Rob is here because he has been a
radio brat since he was born and knows all about radio.
8389 Now to present our
ideas for the new radio station in Edmonton.
8390 The first step in
moving forward was to be sure that the market was a viable one. Now, as everyone is aware, the Alberta
economy has been on fire for the past few years. Edmonton's economy has also grown with it. As the capital of the province not only does
the city benefit from the oil and gas industry, it has a widely diversified
economy, including a strong public sector and retail business.
8391 Here are just a
few facts.
8392 Edmonton grew in
population at double the Canadian average between 2001 and 2006 and is
projected to continue to grow at 2 per cent per year. The real GDP is projected to continue to grow
at close to 4 per cent per year. Per
capita retail sales skew 44 per cent higher than the national average and are
projected to increase by an average of 6.3 per cent over the next four years.
8393 Radio is very
healthy in this market. With most of the
major broadcasters present in this market with multiple media arms, whether
radio clusters or radio and television clusters, the stations in the Edmonton
area are well positioned to accept new competition.
8394 The most recent
news that is also very encouraging to us, TRAM tells us that the rolling year
to date radio revenues in Edmonton are up a full 12.9 per cent over the same
period last year.
8395 According to TRAM,
the radio revenues for the 12 months ending April 2008 were
$82 million. Now, that is up from
$65 million that the Commission reported for the broadcast year 2006.
8396 So once we were
satisfied that the market could accept a new station, the next question was:
Okay, what should that station be?
8397 Jim and I and Suki
all sat around and talked and we agreed that we would have an open mind and not
have any preconceived ideas of what kind of format we were going to throw in
here just for the sake of the radio station.
So that was when we asked David Oakes to test a variety of music styles
and formats to help us make our decision for The Planet.
8398 David...?
8399 MR. OAKES: Thanks, Don.
8400 We surveyed a
large sample of Edmontonians, 600 of them aged 15‑to‑69. This gives a worst‑case reliability of
plus or minus 4.1 per cent 19 out of 20 times the survey is replicated. We asked respondents how likely they would be
to listen to each of nine formats. I asked
two key questions on the formats to determine the listener's interest.
8401 The first was how
likely they would be to listen to the format and the second was what one format
they would prefer.
8402 What emerged from
both questions were two formats not currently in the market, Adult Rock and
another format, a mix of Blues, Folk and Reggae. Twenty‑six per cent of the sample
stated they were very likely to listen to Adult Rock and 18 per cent were very
likely to listen to the mix of Blues, Folk and Reggae.
8403 We discovered that
the fans for each of these two formats were often the same people. In other words, there was a significant
amount of overlap in these two audiences.
8404 We also tested
interest in 26 different music styles. I
would like to explain the difference between the individual styles of music and
the music format.
8405 Essentially, the
music styles are the building blocks of the format. So for example, if the format was Classical
music, the music styles making it up might beat baroque, romantic, opera and
modern classical. When we then looked at
the interest of the Adult Rock audience in the 26 music styles, there was a
very strong correlation between the music style demands of the two audiences.
8406 They exhibited an
unusually strong demand for Adult Rock along with the specialty music styles Blues,
Folk and Reggae. In fact, I identified
five primary music styles they preferred and three secondary styles. They were Adult Rock, Roots Rock, Blues Rock,
Older Blues, Classic Folk, Classic Rock, Reggae and New Folk.
8407 Now to describe
the sound of the station, here is Liz Janik.
8408 MS JANIK: Thank you, David.
8409 Good morning,
Madam Chair and Commissioners.
8410 The Planet's
format is Edmonton's Adult Alternative.
It has been especially designed for older music fans in Edmonton who are
looking for a wider variety of music styles that are out of the mainstream.
8411 Now, Adult
Alternative is also known as AAA, Americana and Progressive FM, but regardless
of the label there are four key characteristics to every successful Adult
Alternative radio station.
8412 First, they play a
wider very eclectic blend of music that is normally not played on commercial
radio. The fans are very passionate
about music. Even though they are older,
they are still interested in hearing new music.
They would like to hear new music from heritage artists and they would
like to hear new music from the artist of today. They also want radio to play more than one
song from an album.
8413 Second, the tone
and the presentation of the station is friendly, sincere and intelligent. These listeners want real people to talk to
them about the music and about the issues that affect them. They also have a higher than average demand
for news and information.
8414 Three, this format
appeals equally to both men and women.
Even when it is specifically designed, researched and programmed to
appeal to women, it typically returns an audience that is evenly balanced
between men and women. It is the one
format where both sexes can feel at home.
8415 Fourth, every
station in this format must be fully customized to its market. Every market has different musical histories
and unique competitive influences that shape the overall sound of the
station. For example, here in Edmonton
when we asked listeners about classic Alternative from the 1980s, artists like
Sting ‑‑ pardon me, artists like The Clash and Talking Heads,
we discovered that there was a lower than average demand for this type of music
even among those listeners that would be Adult Alternative fans.
8416 Now, to give you a
little sample of what the station will sound like, we would like to play a
short audiovisual presentation.
‑‑‑ Audio clip /
Clip audio
8417 MS JANIK: In addition to the wider variety of music
styles, Adult Alternative listeners want their radio station to give them more
news and information.
8418 To detail our news
programming here is Penny Craig.
8419 MS CRAIG: Thank you, Liz, and good morning, everybody.
8420 The research that
Mr. Oakes referred to earlier showed very strong interest in local news,
weather, and sports. Information on
cultural activities was a strong second and local music information very close
behind. There is also a clear interest
in our planet's ecology and the environment.
8421 The Planet 107.1
will hire four fulltime news reporters and announcers. This will ensure that we have experienced
journalists who will serve as anchors for 64 local newscasts each week, for a
total of six hours 24 minutes per week; 75 per cent of that will be pure news,
with the remainder being weather, traffic and sports.
8422 The large news
staff will allow us to have one reporter who will specialize in cultural events
and another who will become our environment specialist.
8423 The news
department will also take the lead on producing our daily news magazine program,
one hour per day, seven days a week. The
Planet Magazine will focus on three or four stories each day to provide greater
depth. The weekend shows will be a bit
different, with the Saturday show putting a greater emphasis on entertainment,
sports and culture stories. Sunday will
be a week in review.
8424 We will also
provide a number of daily features as outlined in our application.
8425 In all, we will
provide over 22 hours per week of compelling spoken word programming and I am
thrilled to be part of it.
8426 Now here to talk
about our CCD initiatives is Jaspreet Gill.
8427 MS GILL: Thanks, Penny. Hello, Commissioners and Madam Chair.
8428 Our CCD
initiatives are a very important part of our radio station. In each of the next seven years, The Planet
will spend a total of $600,000 above and beyond the basic requirement, of which
80 per cent is directed to local initiatives.
8429 Here is how we
would spend the money:
8430 ‑ $120,000
each year to FACTOR. We will of course
request that FACTOR direct these monies to Alberta artists, to the greatest
extent possible.
8431 ‑ Musical
scholarships of $75,000 each year, split evenly between Grant MacEwan College,
the University of Alberta and the Harris Institute of Arts.
8432 ‑ An annual
contribution of $50,000 to Music Alberta.
8433 ‑ $55,000
each year to hire Canadian musicians to play out our Planet Music and Green
Festival;
8434 ‑ $50,000
annually to the Edmonton Folk Festival, one of Canada's premier folk events to
hire emerging Canadian artists on a special stage;
8435 ‑ $250,000
annually for Independent Music Awards.
8436 Because we wanted
to have a strong local input, our most important contributor to the concept of
Independent Music Awards was Barry Allen.
We asked Barry to join us.
8437 Barry...?
8438 MR. ALLEN: Thank you, Jaspreet, and good morning.
8439 When Don
approached me to give him advice on initiatives to support the local music
industry, I was impressed with the things that were already in place, but Don
wanted me to provide him with guidance for a project that would truly further
the careers of artists.
8440 The first thing I
did was recommend an increase in the amount of money going directly to the
artist so The Planet could provide them with financial assistance that will
genuinely help the artists with their careers.
8441 I suggested to Don
that The Planet divide the Independent Music Awards into two parts. The first will give $10,000 prizes to each of
the winners of 10 different categories of emerging Canadian artists. An additional $40,000 will be spent to create
a compilation CD of the winners and to produce a free concert highlighting all
10 winners.
8442 The second change
resulted from my suggestion, based on my career experience trying to develop
artists in Alberta. The Planet will add
an additional $110,000 each year to be divided among three of the 10 original
winners. At the final concert, we will
ask prominent Edmonton music industry professionals to choose the three
winners. Each winner will receive an
additional $36,667 beyond the original $10,000 prize to devote to the
production and marketing of their next CD.
8443 I suggested this
because I believe to really make a difference, The Planet needs the choose
those artists with a chance at success and provide them with enough funds to
produce a top quality product that they can take to labels, promoters,
producers and audiences.
8444 By the end of the
term of the licence The Planet will have provided 70 winners with a boost in
their careers, with 21 of them receiving additional support to go on from being
emerging to being part of the Canadian music landscape fabric.
8445 And now here to
sum up is Don.
8446 MR. KAY: Thanks, Barry.
8447 Madam Chair,
Commissioners, Members of the Commission staff, I truly hope that we have been
able to convey to you the excitement with which we are approaching this
application. The other day Jim, Penny
and I reminisced about our days at CHED when it was a music station that had a
32 hours tune share. I mean, that's
incredible. CHED was the station in the
market.
8448 It was very
successful because of a number of things.
It was fun. The on‑air
staff was live and not voicetracked. We
never voicetracked. Announcers did more
than intro and extro songs chosen by corporate programmers from elsewhere, when
the announcers knew every musician in town because we hung out with them and we
encouraged them and when listeners looked forward to something different on the
radio, and they got it.
8449 But that was
another era and we don't expect that one station today can have the rating that
CHED did in those days. But the nature
of The Planet 107.1 will be similar. It
will be a station that loves music, a wide range of music, from artists like
Van Morrison, Joni Mitchell to contemporary adult rockers like Dave Matthews or
Colin Linden. Our listeners will be
delighted to hear a refreshing new mix of music, including Blues, Folk, and
Reggae.
8450 Edmonton has a
very rich and vibrant music scene, with festivals and concerts, talented
artists from a wide variety of genres, professional recording studios like
Homestead and The Physics Laboratory. We
have several labels in the city, including Barrypatch Records, Stony Plain
Records.
8451 They produced
albums from a wide range of artists with a particular emphasis on Roots artists
from Amos Garrett to Alternative Country artist Corb Lund, to Blues and Folk
artists.
8452 Edmonton is ready
for a new fulltime eclectic radio station.
With a very strong economy reflected in strong retail sales, Edmonton's
radio economy is well positioned to accept new competition. The entry of a new player with experience in
this market, with ownership in this market, will create a new editorial voice
and new radio competition in a market presently dominated by the big eastern‑based
players.
8453 We have produced a
strong business plan with a format based upon extensive research by one of
Canada's best researchers. As we
mentioned earlier, we did not go into this application with any preconceived
ideas for the format, but rather tested 26 styles of music, nine formats for
both interest and availability. What
emerged was how many Edmonton listeners really love the diverse music genres
that The Planet will present, from Roots Rock to Blues, Folk, Reggae and Adult
Rock.
8454 Our commitment to
Category 3 music reflects their musical tastes and their demands. We have made a strong commitment to new
Canadian artists with 40 per cent Canadian content, of which half will be to
new and emerging artists. We also will
make a significant contribution to emerging artists in the kinds of music we
will play and the on‑air features that will expose and celebrate them, as
well as a substantial financial contribution to their future success.
8455 I am very proud to
have pulled together this group of people to appear before you with broad
experience in radio, the financial resources to pull it together and the
enthusiasm to know that we can make it work.
8456 Thank you for your
attention and it's your turn. We welcome
your questions.
8457 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kay.
8458 MR. KAY: Yes.
THE CHAIRPERSON: We have lots of questions. I am going start and I'm sure the others will
have questions as well.
8459 MR. KAY: Okay.
8460 THE
CHAIRPERSON: First of all, I am going to
make sure I am organized here.
‑‑‑ Pause
8461 THE
CHAIRPERSON: As you know, a number of
applicants have proposed a format similar to the format you are proposing and
I'm wondering if we could start off with you describing the similarities and
differences between your proposed Adult Alternative format and the AAA format
proposed by the other three applicants ‑‑ if you wouldn't
mind, if you could do each separately ‑‑ Jim Pattison,
Harvard, Evanov.
8462 Whatever order you
would like to go in is good.
8463 MR. KAY: Yes. Madam
Chair, I haven't had the luxury of hearing their presentations. I have looked over a little of their
summaries and supplementaries.
8464 But at least the
ones who are doing the AAA have proven with their research that that is the
format of choice that needs to be in the marketplace, but I will ask Liz to
expand on that little bit. She studied
the plans a little more than I have.
8465 Liz...?
8466 MS JANIK: Thank you, Don.
8467 I have reviewed
the research and the briefs that were presented online. I wasn't able to find comprehensive
information from all the applicants to speak with authority to each
applicant. I could address some of the
key differences, from our point of view.
8468 The first thing
that I recognized is the audience that we are seeking to serve with The Planet
format is distinct from the audiences that the other applicants have
identified. The reason that can I say
this with some authority is because our audience has a double key characteristic. One is that they love the Adult Rock, and the
second part is that they really do enjoy specialty music, the Category 3 music,
including Blues, Folk and Reggae.
8469 I believe we are
the only applicant that offers this particular combination. So because we offer a very unique combination
of music, we have an audience ‑‑ using David's research, we
know that we have an audience of 140,000 people who will really love what it is
that we are doing.
8470 Another aspect of
ours that is different from the others is that because of this very diverse set
of music styles that we are going to be playing, and because of our very strong
belief in Canadian music, I believe that we will be able to open doors to
artists who would otherwise fall through the cracks of the traditional Pop and
Rock formats, even Country.
8471 Corb Lund, for
example, is an Alt Country artist and because he is this slightly left of
center Country sound, he doesn't fit on most Country formats according to those
programmers; and because he has a little bit of twang to what he does, he
doesn't fit on the Pop and Rock stations.
8472 So the fact that
we have this wider diversity in music styles means that we will bring artists
that live and work here in Edmonton and across Canada, we will give them a
chance to get to the airwaves. This I
think makes us distinct from the other applicants.
8473 One area where I
did observe there was some common ground is that it seems that our research
among all of us indicates that we will appeal to pretty much an even split
between men and women. I think we are
all in the sort of 48 to 52 per cent range, which statistically, given margin
of errors, means we are almost 50:50.
None of us are leaning 65 or 70 per cent male or female. So we all tend to be gender neutral.
8474 That I think is
the most that I can do with great authority at this time.
8475 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Janik.
8476 I'm just going to
take a second here and just check something, if you don't mind.
8477 MR. KAY: There is a little bit of a comparative thing,
Madam Chair, where Harvard is proposing 20 per cent emerging and so are
we. Pattison and CTV and the Evanov ones
are lower in emerging artists, but there are some.
8478 The Yerxa
application of course is younger Friday.
The Harvard and Evanov are skewing towards female listeners and I
suppose will have a softer sound as well.
8479 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So maybe just sort of to
jump ahead in the order that I don't normally ask the question, but which of
the applicants then would you view as most competitive with yours or would you
think they are all very, very similar?
8480 MR. KAY: Competitive?
8481 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Of the ones you have
mentioned, yes.
8482 MR. KAY: I guess ‑‑ Jim, have you got
a thought on that?
8483 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: Madam Chair, in fact, the
others are competitive with each other, but we are actually quite
different. When you take the 30 per
cent specialty music that we are playing, that really moves us into a different
area and we will have quite a different sound and really appeal to very much a
different audience.
8484 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I actually in my notes have
them all having some Category 3 music.
So we will see that as we go along and I will check my notes, too.
8485 But at any rate I
appreciate that. Thank you.
8486 What about then a
comparison with the station currently in the market, Alternative Modern Rock,
which I understand is a Rogers CHDI‑FM.
8487 Did you compare
your format to theirs?
8488 MS JANIK: Yes, I did.
What they are doing is a younger Alternative mix. They are playing a wide variety of music
styles. They are playing primarily Pop
and Rock music styles, and the type of music styles that they are using and age
of songs and artists that they are using indicate to me that they will definitely
track younger in their audience. I would
imagine mostly under 35 would be their primary audience base.
8489 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I'm wondering then, did you
calculate the percentage of your proposed playlist that is not currently being
played in the market?
8490 MS JANIK: I did have access to a Mediabase when we were
preparing this application so I pulled up a 12‑week report. Because of the nature of Mediabase, it
doesn't allow me to generate percentages readily.
8491 I did go through
and I looked at the artists that would be core to our sound, so when I looked
at ‑‑ to give you some idea, Corb Lund, who I mentioned
already, in a 12‑week period was never played on Pop and Rock Edmonton
radio. He was never played.
8492 I love Van
Morrison and Van Morrison is played here in Edmonton, and he is played about
four times a week on four different radio stations, which means I as a fan
would have to wade through 1,500 songs before they would get to that one song.
8493 Neil Young is
played here in Edmonton, but the issue with this is that although he is played
here almost all the songs that you will hear on the radio here are pre‑1980. Well, that's nearly 30 years ago and it
doesn't take into account the fabulous albums he has released just in the last
couple of years, the very political one from 2006 and the more romantic Prairie
Wind.
8494 We love Joni
Mitchell. You can hear Joni Mitchell
once a week.
8495 Bruce Cockburn,
who was a staple of this format in the United States, is one of the celebrated
artists for this format in the United States, is heard twice a week on Joe,
which is a format of Classic Hits.
8496 Sting. I can hear Sting in this market. He is played once a day on one radio station.
8497 But I cannot hear
all these artists together in any great frequency on any one radio station in this
market.
8498 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I think that answers the
question very well. Thank you.
8499 Now, you have
proposed 30 per cent Category 3 music to be offered during the broadcast week.
8500 Are you willing to
accept that as a condition of licence?
8501 MR. KAY: Yes, absolutely.
8502 THE
CHAIRPERSON: You may have said that this
morning.
8503 MR. KAY: Yes.
8504 THE
CHAIRPERSON: How many hours per
broadcast week are you proposing to devote to Category 3 music?
8505 MS JANIK: Well, at least a minimum of 30 per cent
evenly distributed through all dayparts.
We don't look at this music style as a negative; it is something that
our listeners really want.
8506 So part of our
strategy to be successful with the 140,000 people who want the special blend of
music is to include it through all dayparts.
8507 We do have some
specialty shows in addition, but it is part of the mix; it is part of the sound
of the station.
8508 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: Could I jump in here, Madam
Chair.
8509 A really
interesting thing came out of David's research and it was one of those eureka
moments.
8510 I have been
working with David for years and he is a fabulous researcher and there is
always more in the research than dummies like me can get out of it. But we were talking about Category 3 and I
suddenly realized something that was in front of us for quite a while. When David does the research, he asks a very
interesting question and that is: How
much do you like, how much do you want the various categories or the various
styles that qualify as Category 3? And
you get truly tremendous strong results.
People want to hear that music.
8511 But then he asks
the question ‑‑ all right, let's say you picked that Folk was
your very favourite. He then asks the
question: Well, do you want us to create
a Folk radio station?
8512 And the answer is
invariably no, I don't want a Folk radio station. I want the music I love as a spice inside,
you know, a broad spectrum of the music.
Which I think may go a long ways to start explaining why for those of us
in the industry and for the Commission too, for that matter, licensing Category
3 stations, the success of them has been so difficult.
8513 Really only
Classical stations are the only ones that have had real success over the years,
and that is because if you pick a target, like I suggested Folk, they don't
want that. The listeners aren't looking
for that. They love Folk music, but they
don't love a Folk radio station.
8514 So that's why our
30 per cent has so many different genres in it, so that we can create that
spice and weave it in with all the other music.
8515 We are very
confident of our success. David's
research has never steered me wrong in years, believe me.
8516 MR. KAY: We also said to ourselves the other day,
okay, let's look at our collection of CDs or albums at home. What do you have? What do you have? Okay.
Do you have some ‑‑ oh, you do. So we all have this little bit of Blues, a
little bit of Folk, a little bit of whatever.
And that is part of the basis again where you say hmmm, that makes
sense.
8517 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Collection of albums speaks
to our age, I think.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8518 MR. KAY: Yes.
8519 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I think your comments,
though, Mr. McLaughlin, segue into my next question. I should probably have asked the first
question a little better.
8520 What percentage of
subCategory 3, Jazz and Blues, Worldbeat and Folk, how would you break that
down?
8521 MS JANIK: When we asked about the general concept of
playing a station with Jazz ‑‑ pardon me, with Blues, Folk,
and World beat, we got a very strong response to that. So we looked a little further and because we
do this thing of looking at 26 distinct music styles, what we came to
understand was that what they really preferred was the Blues and the Folk and
not so much Worldbeat.
8522 So we're looking
at about, almost 15 per cent Blues and 15 per cent Folk and a little bit
above that for the Reggae.
8523 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I'm just making notes here to myself. Thanks.
8524 MR. OAKES: If I could just, as the researcher, discuss
this a little bit, when we were trying to figure out the Category 3 music
styles and how much they would be played, it was a bit difficult because of the
top five musical styles to be played on station, two were Category 3 music
styles.
8525 So obviously we
would play those more than the Reggae and newer Folk. So out of those it becomes very difficult to
try to predict what would be the best composition of those.
8526 All I can say is
that when you have two of your top five that are Category 3 music, you have to
put them in there and you have to feature them.
8527 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So it sounds like the 30
per cent will definitely be a minimum, or there is a good possibility it will
be a minimum.
8528 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: That's why we have no
problem making the commitment to the 30 per cent as a condition of licence.
8529 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
8530 As I'm sure you
know, in the 2006 Radio Policy the Commission indicated it would amend the
current Canadian content regulation for Category 3 music, Canadian content for
Category 3 music, requiring at least 20 per cent of subCategory 3 for Jazz and
Blues selections during the broadcast week be Canadian.
8531 Would you
anticipate any problems satisfying that requirement?
8532 MR. KAY: None whatsoever.
8533 THE
CHAIRPERSON: No. And if the Commission were to decide to
impose that new minimum 20 per cent as a condition of licence, would you agree
to that?
8534 MR. KAY: Absolutely.
8535 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
8536 Now, just
specifically, I noticed your program Pick of the Week which you described in
your brief ‑‑ I'm just going to turn to it actually.
‑‑‑ Pause
8537 THE
CHAIRPERSON: You indicated that you will
highlight 52 emerging artists every year and I was curious to know, first of
all, how the artists will be picked.
8538 MS JANIK: We will pick the artist based on the music
that is submitted to us throughout the year.
We will be looking for the best sounding, most appealing releases that
are available and we will take into consideration their experience and audience
appeal.
8539 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So you will be actually
soliciting this type of submissions.
Maybe you get them automatically anyway, but you will be actively
encouraging it.
8540 MS JANIK: We will be actively soliciting. In the past when I have launched local
independent‑type programming, typically what I will do as I will create a
press release for all the people who are part of the infrastructure in the
music industry and advise them of our programming policy and encourage them to
send us submissions.
8541 When I launched
the 100 per cent Canadian channel on Iceberg, with the help of Indie Pool, they
distributed a letter for me to their membership, and within a few weeks I
received 500 independent releases.
8542 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So you won't have to ‑‑
8543 MS JANIK: So I am quite confident and very actually
excited at the opportunity to open the door to radio to artists from a wide
variety of genres.
8544 And personally I
have a collection at home of 1,500 Canadian artists.
8545 MR. KAY: You know, it is one of those fun things too,
where other stations ‑‑ every station has people knocking on
the door and say look, would you please play my record.
8546 Well, it gives us
a way to expose them and do more than just play their record and make the whole
week‑long thing for them.
8547 Also, with our Hey
Mom I Have Taken over the Planet program, we can have someone like Sara
Philasani(ph) come in and take over the show.
And she doesn't have to play just her music, she can play Canadian
stuff. But it is a musician who is going
to come in, have an open door thing and really do what they want to do.
8548 Burton Cummings,
for example, is a closet disc jockey.
When I was in Winnipeg when he would come into town I would say, hey
Burton, do you want to come in and take over?
That would be great for us.
8549 But a lot of these
people don't have a chance to do that.
We want to give them that chance.
8550 THE
CHAIRPERSON: In your deficiency response
March 7th, you indicate that you may occasionally run some Canadian syndicated
programs. I think you just wanted to
leave yourself some latitude there.
8551 MR. KAY: Exactly.
8552 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Is that still your same
position?
8553 MR. KAY: Exactly, yes.
Just some latitude. If there was,
for example, a Blues festival and somebody came to us and said we produced this
blues program that fits with what is going on in your community, in your city,
do you want to listen to it and maybe run it?
Sure, we will listen to it.
8554 That would be the
only kind of thing that we are planning at this point in time. Other than that, nothing.
8555 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Still staying with the 120
hours of local programming?
8556 MR. KAY: Yes.
Absolutely.
‑‑‑ Pause
8557 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I've got so many
applications you can't get them all on one schedule. I just have to flip around here.
8558 126 hours live‑to
air, would that be a correct statement, then, if six hours is allowed for
syndicated?
8559 MR. KAY: Yes.
8560 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
8561 Now, with respect
to your CCD initiatives, I'm assuming because it is quite a lengthy list ‑‑
I didn't have a chance to check your comments this morning with what has been
submitted, but I'm assuming there is no change.
8562 MR. KAY: No change.
8563 THE
CHAIRPERSON: All right. So with regards to the Music and Green
Festival...?
8564 MR. KAY: Yes.
The whole concept of green of course is growing everywhere and we
certainly plan to be a green radio station.
We are going utilize the best practices and ecofriendly right things to
do.
8565 And as far as the
Green Festival, do you want to talk about that, Liz or is it Jas?
8566 MS JANIK: I can talk about the concept or did you want
the details of the finances?
8567 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Actually, what I was
interested in was how the artists were going to be selected.
8568 MS JANIK: For showcasing on The Planet Music and Green
Festival?
8569 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
8570 MS JANIK: Because we have this ongoing dialogue with artists
from the community and from Edmonton specifically, we will get to know the
artists that are available in our community and we will be able to identify
those artists that our audiences particularly prefer.
8571 So we will hire
local Edmonton artists that are part of our playlist to be part of the
showcase.
8572 We would look for
one artist that was a little higher statured to be the headliner and the others
would be the emerging artists.
8573 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I guess I was ‑‑
and I can see, Ms Janik, with you being involved that you probably don't need
any outside expertise. So when I was
writing the question I was kind of contemplating were you doing it internally,
but I can see that you will be.
8574 And a similar
question that I had with respect to the Independent Music Awards, the first
phase of that, where there are 10 artists selected, I gather that is as well
selected internally?
8575 I know the prize
winners are not, the three are not. But
will the initial 10?
8576 MR. KAY: Yes, the initial 10 ‑‑ sorry
, Liz, did you want to go ahead?
8577 MS JANIK: Yes.
Because we will be playing these artists as part of our rotation, what
we will do internally is we will identify I would expect the top three from
each of the music styles that we have identified. Then we'll take it to the audience and we'll
let the audience have their input to pick the top of those three in each of the
categories.
8578 MR. KAY: Okay.
Would you like further explanation on the top three or...?
8579 THE
CHAIRPERSON: No, that's very good.
8580 MR. KAY: Okay.
8581 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I don't know, I think we
see from these American Idol‑type or Canadian Idol‑type shows, you
have to be careful when you ask for audience because you can sort of stack the
deck.
8582 MS JANIK: Hence our preselection of them.
8583 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and the final
selection.
8584 Now, with respect
to the Independent Music Awards Phase 2, as we have just mentioned, you will
have a panel that will select the three grand prize winners. You mentioned that each will receive an
additional $36,667 for the production of the CD and, if they wish, a video, for
a total contribution of $110,000. I have
a couple of questions in this regard.
8585 MR. KAY: Sure.
8586 THE
CHAIRPERSON: First of all, I'm wondering
how these funds will be disbursed. Like
would it be ‑‑
8587 MR. KAY: I'm going the turn things over to Barry Allen
here in a second. That is the area
where, as Barry said earlier, I went to him and said Barry, how can we do more
than just the token thing that radio stations do? What can we do that is going to impress the
Commission, that is going to be good for the community, going to be good for
the musicians?
8588 And then Barry was
the one who came up and said okay, Don, here is what you really have to do.
8589 Barry...?
8590 MR. ALLEN: Thanks, Don.
8591 Madam
Commissioner, I just felt with the initial in Phase 1, the $10,000 to each, to
10 winners, for $10,000 it is very difficult for a band to record and produce a
state‑of‑the‑art piece of product. For $10,000 you would be lucky if you get it
completed and get it to the mix stage.
8592 What I suggested
to Don was that well, maybe we should take it another step further where we
offer a couple of prizes with some substance to it where it would give the
bands or the artists the opportunity to not only finish recording their album
but also have money in there to manufacture product, to have a professional
graphic artist design it, then have money also in the recording process to
bring in an outside producer. Those
expenses can vary anywhere from $5,000 to $15,000; but to bring in a name kind
of producer to help them take their music to a next level, take it to a higher
level than they already are, and then also to have enough money to pay a publicist
and a tracker and then have money left to do some marketing and promotion.
8593 That has been the
big downfall with acts at this point, is we just run out of money. We end up we have enough money to make a
record, make a good record and then there isn't money left there to take it to
the next most important stage: get it
out to the audiences.
8594 That was the
reason that intrigued me with this entire application, is that I love the idea
of the 40 per cent Canadian content, 20 per cent emerging artists. It means they have some meat on the bone
here. They are putting some funds into
the community that will in turn filter into the music industry and Edmonton, in
Alberta, and it helps people like me; it helps artists; it helps
producers. They then have money to hire
a manager instead of their friend.
8595 I was real excited
about this because I think it works.
They need more money.
8596 Without these
types of initiatives I'm not so sure where our industry would be today, because
to work in the music industry ‑‑ I have worked in the industry
for upwards of 40 years, and I mean I love making music, it is the greatest
thing anybody can do, to be able to produce artists. It is absolutely magical. I can't tell you how much I love doing it,
and I want to be able to keep doing that and I want to get better at what I do,
as all artists want to get better at what they do.
8597 They want to write
a better record. This program I feel
offers them to do that.
8598 Then once that
record is completed, then we have a friendly radio station that is eager to
play and approachable on a local level.
It is very exciting for me and that's why I love this application.
8599 I hope I have
answered your question.
8600 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I can appreciate it is
obviously a very thoughtful approach.
What I'm really wondering is how the funds will be controlled to ensure
that somebody doesn't take a trip to Winnipeg ‑‑ to Winnipeg,
to Mexico ‑‑ although they might take a trip to Winnipeg from
Mexico.
8601 MR. KAY: Madam Chair, we have spoken about that one,
too. Knowing musicians and knowing radio
people, we decided that we would distribute the money in accordance with some
kind of plan. I don't think it would be
wise to give anybody $36,000 or $46,000 right now and let them make their own
decisions if they don't have good management and good ethics or whatever.
8602 So we would
distribute that money in accordance with the plan. Once the winners are chosen by an independent
body of known musicians probably and radio people in the city, then we would
say okay, what is our plan here. That is
where Barry knows that industry inside and out.
He will suggest things and they will come up with a plan.
8603 We will then say
okay, it's going to cost "X" dollars for this recording session,
"X" dollars for the mastering, "X" dollars for the making
of the CDs. Well then maybe here is some
money left over for a management thing.
Maybe here is the money you need for a tour.
8604 But I think it has
to have a business plan and sometimes we all need that input.
8605 MR. ALLEN: It would be progressive. It would be initial funds to get the project
going and then as it is completed along the way, funds will be then issued to
pay for those portions.
8606 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So you probably ‑‑
8607 MR. ALLEN: Rather than just handing over ‑‑
I totally agree with you, you can't do that.
8608 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So you would probably end
up then with some type of agreement with these winners or a contract. Maybe not as formal as that, but...
8609 MR. ALLEN: Yes.
8610 MR. KAY: Let me get Jaspreet to answer a little bit of
that too, for you, because she is going to be supervising and staying on top of
that.
8611 Sorry, Jas.
8612 MS GILL: I will be supervising all the CCD initiatives
so the money just doesn't go wandering where it is not supposed to go. So it will be monitored by me and the team,
and I will be reporting back and forth.
So there is an open communication and we know it is just not being used
for, you know, travelling somewhere.
8613 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
8614 Just let me ask
you one question on that, then.
8615 Would you expect
to be issuing the cheques directly to a third party or is that just too far
down the road to even ‑‑ directly to a third party?
8616 MS GILL: Yes.
8617 THE
CHAIRPERSON: You would, okay.
8618 I'm just
wondering, under the new regulations video would not qualify as an eligible CCD
initiative, so the CCD funds would have to be directed to the production of
audio content.
8619 In that case,
would you propose to eliminate the option of using these funds to produce a
video or would you propose to redirect the funds?
8620 MR. KAY: We wouldn't be doing any videos. If it doesn't qualify, then we will have to
let them know that upfront.
8621 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Good enough.
Good enough.
8622 In your brief, at
page 22, you refer to additional potential significant back‑office and
management synergies if your application for The Planet in Vancouver was
approved, which unfortunately it wasn't.
As you know, we had very few frequencies there, one.
8623 But at any rate
I'm wondering, were these synergies or are the synergies that you anticipated
incorporated in the financial projections that you submitted with this
application?
8624 MR. KAY: No.
8625 THE CHAIRPERSON: No?
8626 MR. KAY: No. We
were only talking about possibly doing that syndicated show would run in
Vancouver and here, but there was nothing this far. We just thought okay, can we do this as a
good business plan? We have the
experience, we have the knowledge and we can certainly do it.
8627 THE
CHAIRPERSON: That's great. Thanks.
8628 Now, you gave a
little more information in your brief this morning but maybe we can just
repeat. I will ask my question, although
I think you might have given me some of the answer.
8629 In your March 7th
deficiency you refer to hiring specialists to write, produce and host your
special interest music programs and you refer to them as a freelance producers.
8630 I'm just
wondering, to assist in comparing your financial projections to those of other
applicants, how many fulltime equivalents would these freelancers equate to?
8631 MS JANIK: I didn't quite hear the last part of your
question.
8632 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I'm just wondering, to
assist in comparing your financial projections to those of the other
applicants, how many fulltime equivalents these freelanceers would equate to.
8633 MS JANIK: How many fulltime equivalents?
8634 THE
CHAIRPERSON: People. I'm talking about people.
8635 MS JANIK: Oh, we are only looking at some of the
feature programs. Specifically the one
that comes to mind is Planet Pow‑wow, because there is a gentleman that I
had the pleasure of working with on SIRIUS Satellite by the name of Brian
Wright‑McCloud and. He is a noted
author of the Encyclopedia of Native Music.
When we would work with him it would be a nominal amount of money that
he would receive. Even all three
together wouldn't even add up to I would say at best maybe half a person. If we had three people being paid fees, it
would be minimal. It's really just a one‑hour
show and it is a small cost.
8636 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you.
8637 Can you just
describe for me the total number of employees that you expect to have and how
they will break down?
8638 MR. KAY: Yes. Exactly, we are going have four people in news
fulltime; there will be seven announcers; plus a PD, and that being Liz; one
production manager; one traffic person; two writers, who we intend to keep very
busy; one promotion manager; one accountant; one receptionist. I will be general manager and general sales
manager, and we will have five sales people.
8639 So that's a total
of 25.
8640 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you.
I was missing a few.
8641 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: I should point out that Liz
has told us she intends to do an air shift.
8642 MS JANIK: Yes, it's time to have fun again.
8643 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I recall Commissioner
Cugini saying how much she enjoyed your programs years back. I'm sure she will comment on that
anyway. At any rate, I recall her
telling us that.
8644 I just want to
look at your financial projections, so I have some kind of involved
questions. Maybe we will just work our
way through them and see how it goes.
8645 In your brief you
indicate your research found your format could produce at maturity a maximum
potential 12‑plus audience share of 7 per cent, and in your application
at section 6.1 you project reaching a 6 per cent share in year four and 7 per
cent in year five.
8646 I'm wondering,
given the somewhat narrower appeal of the Category 3 portion of your musical
selections ‑‑ and you are free to disagree with that if you
don't think it is narrower appeal ‑‑ and the highly
competitive nature of the market, could you elaborate as to why you feel your
projected market share is achievable?
8647 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: First, may I start by
disagreeing with your position on Category 3?
8648 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Certainly, yes.
8649 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: David can give us exact
details.
8650 When we looked at
the Category 3 music genres, they scored exceptionally high. In other words, there is really genuine
interest out there for this kind of music.
8651 You recall I said
they dropped way down when you asked if they wanted a specific radio station in
those genres, and they don't, but they want to hear that music. And two of the categories tested in the top
five.
8652 So in other words,
you know, when we were picking the key categories of music to play, two of them
tested in the top five. That means our
audience is asking us for 40 per cent or they are asking for at least 40 per
cent. We are only looking to go to 30, I
admit, but we do respectfully dispute that it is a lesser desired music style.
8653 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So you feel confident that
those are achievable?
8654 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: We are very confident.
8655 Also, you know as
we started out in those, we took that seven share and cut it in half and then
reduced that a little bit to be very conservative in our first couple of years.
8656 MR. OAKES: If I could add to that, the audience reach at
14 per cent was relatively ‑‑ not relatively, it is very
conservative. The 7 per cent hours tuned
share is very conservative.
8657 I have taken out
every possible person out of the audience potential that even has a hint of,
well maybe, maybe not, and I have basically got the core there that is very
passionate about the music.
8658 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
8659 Your PBIT levels
in years four through seven increase from 42.3 per cent in year four to 50.6
per cent in year five to 54.2 per cent in year seven. I'm just wondering if you could explain why
you believe you can achieve these PBIT levels given the Edmonton market's 2007
PBIT level was 26.7 per cent and considering the highly competitive nature of the
market. And of course there is a good
likelihood some other service or services will be licensed into the market.
8660 MR. KAY: Jim, are you going to answer?
8661 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: Yes, Commissioner, I will
attempt to take a swing at that to start with.
8662 First of all,
because we were so conservative in the first few years, we ramp up rather
substantially each successive year. So
we only get to our 7 per cent, I will call it our full audience if you will, in
year four.
8663 The other issue is
we have worked very hard to keep our costs down. When you are a stand‑alone operator,
you must keep your costs in check or you will get yourself in trouble. You know, the big guys have 12 other radio
stations to send money when they get in trouble or when they are starting out. We don't; we have what is in our pocket.
8664 So by keeping our
costs down and being aggressive sales people, we are quite confident that we
will have above‑average performance with this radio station.
8665 I managed a stand‑alone
FM in Vancouver against all major competition and we took it to the number one
sales FM station in the city in two years.
We went from $4 million in sales to over $12 million in sales in
two years, and I assure you we were making out like a bandit on the bottom
line.
8666 MR. KAY: I also want to check ourselves.
8667 For example ‑‑
and I don't want to confuse you with a lot of figures. But, for example, the year one sales we
projected in our application was $2,220,000, I believe. So I did some research and talking to people
I know in the marketplace and also Liz and I talked about program clocks and
how much commercial inventory we were going to have.
8668 Now, obviously we
won't have for the first year ratings and numbers to work with, but we said we
want to play the game and give people a lot of music and also know that we are
going to have to be conservative here.
So we came up with a total of 720 minutes of commercial time per week.
8669 Now, in this
market the going rate for a 30‑second spot, if you check, is $100 to $110
on the key, the number one stations, the big boys. That is in a full reach plan, 6:00 a.m. to
midnight.
8670 So we are basing
our sellout component of commercial time at 50 per cent of our available
inventory. So that brings it down to 360
minutes. And our spot rate initially of
$60 per spot as opposed to the $100 or $110 that the other guys can qualify
for.
8671 So when you do the
math and the numbers come out ‑‑ we did that to check
ourselves ‑‑ the number I came with is $2,246,000 for the
first year. So it gave us a feeling of
comfort that, okay, we have to play in here.
We have to know what we are working with and these numbers seem to me
very reasonable, having been on the street here in Edmonton and selling before.
8672 THE CHAIRPERSON: I
notice, I guess it is to Mr. McLaughlin's .2, that your revenues are really
taking quite ‑‑ like they are increasing almost 50 per cent in
year three.
8673 MR. KAY: Yes.
8674 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I take it that is just
because you will have your ratings and you will be able to raise your rates?
8675 MR. KAY: Yes.
We have the ratings and also, you know, the high cost of spots in this
market, you know, when I first started researching and I thought well, if the
going rate was $60 it is going to take us a while to get up there. But with the going rate being as it is, if we
provide a good product and get some numbers, we can certainly do what Jim was
able to do in Vancouver. I want to show
him we can do that.
8676 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I'm just going to digress a
little bit here then because I think it is a test to your numbers.
8677 How many licensees
did you assume we might grant in your projections ‑‑ just
yourselves?
8678 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: I would like to answer that
this way. We assumed multiple
licences. We left it up to you how many.
8679 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So regardless of how many
we licensed, you still feel comfortable with these numbers?
8680 MR. KAY: We are very comfortable with these numbers.
8681 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: Let me just give you a
little piece of information. When we actually
filed these applications, the 12‑month running TRAM report, Edmonton was
a $79 million market. When I pulled the
TRAM to come to this hearing, it is an $82 million market. That was only three months ago that we pulled
that first TRAM at $79 million.
8682 As we said, it is
growing this year, at this moment, at 12.6 per cent. That is phenomenal.
8683 The fact is, Madam
Chair, at your discretion you can license what you want and all the newcomers
won't use up all the market growth this year.
8684 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Just as I say, I wanted to just test the
revenue lines.
8685 I want to now talk
about the expenses, because I noticed in year three that your programming
expenses, for example, are ‑‑ I have so many pieces of paper
here.
‑‑‑ Pause
8686 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, your programming
expenses are 27.1 per cent which is considerably less ‑‑ I
know it is difficult to ask somebody to speak to somebody else's projections
because you weren't in their head; you don't have any idea really or as much of
an idea what they were doing.
8687 It is just that
Harvard is forecasting 46.6 per cent and Evanov 46.9 per cent for programming
expenses. So I'm just wondering if you
would care to comment on why your programming might be less or the degree of confidence
you have in your number?
8688 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: As I explained to you, when
you are a little stand‑alone guy ‑‑ I know I'm not so
little but the company is. When you are
a little stand‑alone guy, you have to control costs.
8689 We have the luxury
of having a program director like Liz who both can and apparently will do an
air shift. So that covers off, you know,
one of those big salary people.
8690 MR. KAY: I might do want to, Jim.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8691 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: Yes, Don was on the air for
years, too.
8692 MR. KAY: I will have fun.
8693 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: But the fact is we have to
control our costs. So we are not going
to have the big‑name morning show.
We are not going to have the big‑name afternoon drive show. We're going to have, you know, very good
talent on the radio station, but not the ego talent. It's not that kind of a radio station.
8694 Our audience is
coming for the music, not for the fun and games.
8695 THE
CHAIRPERSON: But you did mention in your
comments earlier, though, that they are very interested in the news and spoken
word programming.
8696 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: Yes. And we are investing in the newsroom
relative ‑‑ you know, if you are a small music‑based
radio station, we have put a lot into our news department so that we do fulfil
our listeners' request in that regard.
8697 MR. KAY: Other than the news talk station, CHED and
880, who have just converted to news headlines, I mean, I don't think there are
other music stations doing news seven days a week in this market like we
will. That is again based on the
research and the fact that we truly trust the fact that our listeners want that
kind of thing.
8698 THE
CHAIRPERSON: That doesn't necessitate
hiring these really expensive on‑air people?
8699 MR. KAY: No, that's a different thing. You know, as Liz said earlier, we certainly
don't want the juvenile antics. People
don't want that with this format. They
want a good person who tells them what the music is, but we don't need to do
the rah‑rah morning shows. It is
all based on the good programming ideas that we have and the research.
8700 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I will add that in
fairness ‑‑ I don't know if "fairness" is the right
word ‑‑ I notice that the Canadian average for programming
expenses is 25.9 per cent all cross Canada, and yours is 27.1. The Alberta percentage is 28.3 and comparable
markets is 29.5.
8701 So what I'm seeing
is that you are not out of whack but the other two are very high, so we will
have an opportunity maybe to discuss and get a better appreciation for that
later.
8702 MR. KAY: You bet.
8703 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Now, with respect to the
admin and general, sort of a similar question, because your admin and general
are 6.1 per cent. I will give you a
number of different numbers here, because I started off, Harvard's are 17.6 per
cent of gross revenue; Evanov, 12.8 per cent; comparable markets, 24.2 per
cent; and Alberta is 26.2. Yours is 6.1.
8704 That does seem to
be a significant difference.
8705 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: I think one of the keys there,
Commissioner, is the key administration people are all owners and the payment
will come off the bottom line, not the middle line.
8706 THE
CHAIRPERSON: And later possibly.
8707 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: Much.
8708 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Well, it depends on how conservative
you were.
8709 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: Yes.
8710 THE
CHAIRPERSON: All right. So you are feeling that that is the
explanation for that. That's fine,
thanks.
8711 With the strength
of the competition in the Edmonton market again and your very substantial
losses, especially in the first year, I'm just wondering how you would propose
to fund any unexpected losses and for what period of time you would be proposed
to fund these shortfalls.
8712 You know, you are
showing almost a breakeven in year two.
But if that didn't happen, how would you fund and for how long would you
be prepared to put in additional monies?
8713 MR. KAY: Well, I know that the three of us certainly
it is all ‑‑ we haven't had to go to institutions to get
funding; we can do that.
8714 I will let Suki
respond to that, if you will.
8715 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
8716 MR. BADH: Thanks, Don.
8717 Madam Chair, if I
look at the Edmonton economic numbers ‑‑ and as Jim McLaughlin
just pointed out, the money is already there if you look at it.
8718 If I look at the
Edmonton economy, it has the most national, regional retail headquarters, third‑largest
number of small businesses in the country, public companies with 10 billion in
market capital located in the city, over one billion ‑‑ and it
can go on and on and on, all right.
8719 The money is
already there. The population growth is
there. The income growth is there. The building permits are there. Retail sales are there.
8720 In addition, as
Don Kay has just indicated, I am prepared, as are my partners Jim and Don, to
subsidize this. We love this
business. We are here because it is fun
and it's a hobby for us.
8721 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Great. Everybody is very bullish about the market,
there is no doubt about that. So it is
not likely you will be called upon to put more money in; and you have it if you
have to. Okay, that's great then.
8722 MR. KAY: Yes.
8723 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I'm just wondering, then,
with respect to market impact. You note
in your executive summary that you will have little impact on the existing
stations and yet you are forecasting that you will derive 50 per cent of your
year two revenue from the incumbents, which is $1.5 million.
8724 I'm just wondering
if you could give us a breakdown by incumbent.
8725 You can submit it;
or if you have it, you don't have to.
8726 MR. KAY: We are going to impact ‑‑ if
we are going to have impact, it is going to be on the people who are an adult
format such as, I'm sorry to say because I am a good friend and appreciate his
talents, of Marty Forbes at EZ Rock and even CHED when they want music and they
don't want to be listening to talk all the time. But I think the impact is going to be minimal
on the rest.
8727 But, you know,
those would be probably the two that we are going to have an impact on. There is no way to measure that at this
point.
8728 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: with sales really following
demographics, as they do, it is going to be the older ‑‑ the
stations that currently have older demographics.
8729 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Which were the two stations
again that you expected?
8730 MR. KAY: EZ Rock and CHED.
8731 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Is CHED the ‑‑
8732 MR. KAY: CHED is the all‑news, talk, sports.
8733 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, CHED. And the EZ Rock one is...? The call letters, do you know?
8734 MR. KAY: Yes.
EZ Rock is Astral's station that does very well in this market that is
managed by Marty Forbes, and I can't think of the call letters.
8735 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I can find that.
8736 So then if those
are the stations that are going to be affected, are they solely the ones or a
little bit from everybody else? Or is
$1.5 million going to come from those two?
8737 MR. KAY: No, it is going to be a little bit from
everybody. You know, everybody is going
to try us, I mean, the novelty.
8738 We have some money
in the marketing plan for promotion to get people to try the radio
station. So, you know, some clients are
going to jump on the bandwagon of novelty.
You know, if they see a busboard and a lot of advertising and we take the
time to spend the money that we have allocated, that is a combination of the
listeners who are going to try to tune us in.
Also the advertiser might be saying, okay, I may not use them forever,
but I want a piece of that and I'm going to dedicate some of my budget toward
it for the time being.
8739 So it is going to
happen. There is going to be a novelty
buy and a novelty tune‑in.
8740 MR. BADH: Don, can I interrupt for a second?
8741 MR. KAY: Yes, sure.
8742 MR. BADH: Madam Chair, I just want to go back to the
earlier question.
8743 I have sat in
hearings and I have listened to your questions and concerns and I generally do
believe that they are issues that need to be addressed with respect to stand‑alones
and independents.
8744 If I look at Milestones
Radio in Toronto, FLOW, which is doing very well ‑‑ there are
other examples such as Paul Larche in Kingston and John Wright ‑‑
sorry, Paul Larche in Kitchener and John Wright in Kingston and so forth. I do understand your concerns about stand‑alone
stations and having the ability to finance.
8745 I do have business
background. Yes, I am an economist but I
also have a business background and I would like to propose something to the
Commission, and that is I understand ‑‑ and
Mr. McLaughlin and I were also in the running for The Beep. We were just outbid by the bigger boys.
8746 I would like to
put forward the following, and that is that in the first term of the licence,
all right, I am 100 per cent confident that we're going to be successful, then
the value of the licence I understand does go up. And if we are not successful, the value is
still there.
8747 I am willing to
take as a condition of licence that if we decide to sell that the licence be
returned back to the Commission.
8748 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is a very good offer. I don't know that we would go that far, but
certainly it shows your level of commitment.
8749 MR. BADH: Thank you.
8750 MR. KAY: And I'm not sure my son will allow that
anyways, Suki, so be careful.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8751 THE
CHAIRPERSON: You are not certain, did
you say?
8752 MR. KAY: I can hear him right now in the background
saying hold it, dad.
8753 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you very much.
8754 So I think we have
covered how many licences ‑‑ maybe not.
8755 How many licences
do you think the market could support? I
know you said it is up to us, but that's not my question though.
8756 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: You have four signals I will
say in play at this hearing. Is that a
good way to describe it?
8757 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
8758 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: I would suggest to you that
all four are certainly licensable. The
aboriginal folks who were up here just before us certainly ‑‑
now, I am giving you my humble opinion, not fact, but certainly seemed
deserving of some consideration.
8759 If you choose to
license an ethnic station, you have some good applicants there and you have a
whole gang of us looking for a couple of other signals.
8760 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you very much.
8761 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: We would be very comfortable
with a decision that licensed all those for signals.
8762 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
8763 Commissioner
Cugini...?
8764 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you.
8765 You sort of gave
me no choice but to ask further questions of Miss Janik with your comments
earlier.
8766 But I do
have ‑‑ in all seriousness, I noted in your comments that you
say each station must be completely customized for its market and that every
market has different music histories and unique competitive influences.
8767 What are the music
histories and competitive influences of the Edmonton market that make this
format so fitting?
8768 MS JANIK: Well, even though this is wearing the label
of Adult Alternative, and we use that word "alternative", I was very
surprised to see a relatively low overall demand for the Classic 80s
Alternative.
8769 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: So Girlfriend in a Coma by The
Smiths won't cut it in Edmonton?
8770 MS JANIK: I certainly won't be playing it.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8771 MS JANIK: And the format, the older versions of the
Alternative format have their roots in the glory days of early FM, which I can
remember, where progressive radio was a mix of Rock plus other styles like your
Joni Mitchell and Crosby, Stills and Nash, but that Classic Rock base is the
base here in Edmonton for our format.
8772 This is for people
who grew up in the 70s, 60s and 70s, who loved listening to music, still enjoy
those artists that they listened to back then, but would like to hear the music
from today.
8773 So some of these
formats are based on the 80s gold of Alternative and some of them are based on
the FM progressive, progressive FM days of the 70s.
8774 In this case we
are on the earlier body of music that comes from the 70s.
8775 In Vancouver there
was an especially high demand for World Beat, flabbergasting actually. We can't find the same response here in
Edmonton. There is some demand but it is
so low overall for the general population and for our audience that it doesn't
fit.
8776 Here in this
market there is a really strong interest in what we are calling Roots Rock, or
Alt Country is another label that is common in our industry. These are for the artists that have a bit of
a ‑‑ even Country is not quite the right term, but let me use
it so it gives you an idea of which direction it goes in. So that is unique to Edmonton.
8777 So I hear this
station as been influenced by the music that came of the Classic Rock era and
picking the artists of today that are compatible with that sound, including the
Blues and the Folk that in the early days of progressive FM we all heard. I mean, that's how I discovered so many of
those artists when I was a ‑‑ okay, can I say teenager?
8778 So those are some
of the key characteristics here that would shape the sound of the station. It would sound like an oh wow station to
people who grew up with Classic Rock.
8779 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Well, I find that
interesting ‑‑ and thank you for that for that further
verification ‑‑ because when I look at the formats of the incumbents
in the market, you know, at first blush it seems to be covered because we have
Classic Rock, we have Rock, Classic Hits, Country, New Country.
8780 Why do you believe
that the people that you surveyed have identified the format that you are
proposing, that you are proposing as one that is absolutely appealing in
Edmonton, given the formats that we have here already?
8781 MS JANIK: Well, if I wanted to hear a mix of Neil Young
and Bruce Cockburn and Blackie and the Rodeo Kings and Van Morrison and Joni
Mitchell and that great track by I think it is Yael Naim, I would have to
bounce around a lot of different radio stations.
8782 Those artists are
here, but they are in such minimal exposure to them that there is nothing that
suits my taste.
8783 Now, I am a
representative of this audience, but I am using the solid statistical
information from David Oakes to reassure you that there is 140,000 people like
me here in Edmonton that cannot find this blend of music other than
sporadically across the board of the Pop and Rock stations that are here.
8784 I don't know if
you would remember ‑‑ it feels like ancient history now ‑‑
the early days of FM radio when we would license a Pop station, a Rock station,
a softer music station and then we had this sort of other category for things
that didn't fit into the first 3 ‑‑ we also had Country in the
other one ‑‑ where things that didn't fit in the first four
would end up.
8785 That is how CHUM‑FM
was born and CHEZ‑FM in Ottawa, CHOM‑FM in Montreal. Later, in later years, CFNY was a Category 4
I think it was radio station format.
8786 So it is not an
unusual part of our format history in Canada.
It just hasn't been brought into the foreground in recent years.
8787 MR. OAKES: In Edmonton I found this very interesting,
when I test the 26th styles for demand, for example I will use one, let's say
Reggae, when I ask the demand for it, would you very likely or would you
strongly or slightly agree to this type of music style on radio, then I ask
what one station in Edmonton comes to mind when you hear that name?
8788 With the Category
3s, huge demand for them, yet well over 80 per cent couldn't mention a station
in Edmonton that would play it.
8789 So there is quite
a gap between the demand and the perception of the audience out there of does
it exist, does it not. They don't think
it exists.
8790 So this is going
to be something fresh for them because they don't feel they're getting it right
now.
8791 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: One follow‑up question to
the comparison issue that was discussed with the Chairperson earlier.
8792 One application
that you didn't mention was the application we heard yesterday for The Dawg,
because I noticed in the video, both videos played Muddy Waters, B.B. King,
Stevie Ray Vaughan.
8793 Do you see that as
perhaps being the most competitive application to yours?
8794 MR. OAKES: No.
8795 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: So you would be comfortable with
us licensing both?
8796 MS JANIK: I would agree with you that because they are
playing Blues and Blues Rock and those are two styles that are part of our mix,
that they do overlap us to a certain degree.
8797 But again, when
they asked the audience what the audience wants, Classic Folk was as big a
component as the Blues. So for our
audience, they want that fuller mix and they also want the newer music of today
and the adult Rock artists like Dave Matthews and Sting, and so on and so
forth.
8798 So yes, there is
some overlap. I would guess that yes,
they would probably be the closest competitor.
8799 Could we survive
together in this market? Absolutely.
8800 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you.
8801 Thank you very
much.
8802 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Molnar...?
8803 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Thank you.
8804 I just have two
questions for you today. One is just a follow‑up
on your CCD commitments.
8805 I note that you
say you will provide $120,000 each year to FACTOR and it says:
"... will request that FACTOR
direct these monies to Alberta artists to the greatest extent possible."
8806 You know, it is
something I have heard in the past, some concern as to how much of FACTOR's
money actually ends up here in the West.
8807 One of the things
I have heard is that to some extent that may be because the artists in the West
aren't aware of FACTOR or aren't aware of how to go about getting at the FACTOR
money.
8808 So where you say
it will be directed to Alberta artists to the greatest extent possible, I
wondered if you had any plans in order to promote and to have people made aware
of this money?
8809 MR. KAY: Let me let Barry answer that. He is the guy who has been involved and he
knows, so he is the guy to give us the answer to that.
8810 MR. ALLEN: I'm not sure if I can answer it specifically,
but I can certainly enlighten it a bit.
8811 The funding
bodies, in particular FACTOR, have been majorly important, as you know, for
Canadian artists to get us where we are and I know their job is really, really
difficult to keep it fair and equitable across the country. But I think they are really conscious of
trying to keep it so it is fair for all the regions, and I think they would be
most receptive to the fact that if a local radio station in Edmonton earmarks
them a considerable amount of money, and the simple question is can we work on
something that would earmark this money where Alberta artists could have an
insight into it, I think that would be a simple matter of just dedicating it to
the region.
8812 You know, there
would be conditions of course, but I think it could be developed by working
that money so it goes into this area, gets into the local artists' hands from a
local radio station.
8813 Part of the
problem with FACTOR and Canada Council and Starmaker is out here for some
reason Alberta artists, they just don't tend to apply for these grants, the
opportunities that are there. I think we
have done a poor job as an association and as an industry to make them aware
that those monies are there.
8814 You just have to
apply, and you have to apply en masse.
8815 Even though you
think you may not get it, if you keep throwing it in there, eventually, wow,
this guy is pretty good this time. Let's give them some money.
8816 But if we work
with The Planet as an industry and we know there is that amount of money there
that could specifically be dedicated to the Alberta industry, I think we could
do ourselves proud by getting with it, you know, get on the wagon and get those
applications in there and I think we would be rewarded, especially if there is
a bit of a framework in there where we could have the inside track in there.
8817 I know it is
really difficult because you have to keep it fair and equitable, and I think
FACTOR has been fair and equitable over the years.
8818 MS JANIK: To specifically answer your question in terms
of how we would promote it, we have a show planned on this radio station based
on the model of a show that I created for CFNY "X" decades ago called
The State of Independence.
8819 The State of
Independence is for the local music community.
It is scheduled early on Sunday evening, because that is the one day of
the week that the entire industry isn't working. The bands come off the road; they come back
into town. And this is the place where
news and information about independent recording practices and opportunities
would be delivered.
8820 So we have the
power of our radio station to put the word out there.
8821 We can also work
with local music associations, I believe it is the Alberta Music Association to
help them inform their members to get the message across that way, and we have
other places throughout the day where we can bring in references to various
funding as we also would for the scholarships at the schools.
8822 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Thank you very much. That is exactly the kind of answer I was
looking for.
8823 Just to be clear,
I not in any way was suggesting that FACTOR wasn't fair and doing all they
could. It was more what I had understood
was perhaps the artists were not aware of the ability and weren't getting in
their applications.
8824 So promoting it on
your station is I think a great way of having that occur. Thank you.
8825 MR. KAY: Yes, teaching them and helping them. You know, as Barry said, sometimes young
musicians don't think about business things like that and that is part of our
job.
8826 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Thank you.
8827 My final question
relates to new distribution platforms.
8828 I note in your
application that you say you will stream audio.
We have heard about the opportunities of new media, both to promote and
complement the radio station to create rich, rich content on the web. You know, it is a win‑win situation and
I wondered what sort of plans besides streaming audio you might have related to
your new station.
8829 MR. KAY: And I'm going to turn that over to Suki.
8830 MR. BADH: Thank you, Don.
8831 Madam
Commissioner, Jaspreet and I attended the National Association of Broadcasters
meetings this year and that was the theme over there. The Web has the increasingly developed not
only as a medium to reinforce existing media, but more importantly as a separate
means of providing content and of reaching consumers with advertising.
8832 An interesting
study from the Canadian Radio Marketing Bureau 2008 indicates that radio's
value rises as Internet usage increases.
The radio and Internet are very compatible.
8833 A few facts from
the study.
8834 Almost 40 per cent
of Canadian adults listen to radio as they surf the Web.
8835 Second, radio and
Internet outperform other media in time spent.
8836 Third, radio ads
prompt web visits and purchases. Radio
advertising has a strong influence on Internet usage further increasing radio's
value.
8837 Fourth, over 40
per cent of Canadian adults have typed in a website address into their browser
after hearing it on radio.
8838 Five, 57 per cent
of adults indicated that a radio ad had prompted them to learn more about the
product or service on the website.
8839 Jas can address to
that in a bit.
8840 Six, 37 per cent
of listeners who actually visited a website prompted by a radio ad actually
bought online.
8841 Seven, radio ads
are least avoided. Listeners are
increasingly accustomed to have content available to them on demand. 40 per cent of all Canadian adults have
visited a radio website and the numbers increase with younger adults. The radio website increases listener loyalty,
which in turn brings greater value to the station.
8842 While radio is the
theatre of the mind and has some advantages, at the same time listeners cannot
visualize the product, the hosts, the station.
Website gives him that opportunity to see the announcers, to click and
see the product that they're interested in.
8843 Our audience is
not the younger generation who want contents into their phones or their mobile
devices, but they are net savvy and used to reach out to find the content they
want. Many of them have blackberries and
are able to use the most recent models to surf the net for more information.
8844 We will have to
therefor find ways to get them on the net.
8845 Jas is going to
comment on that.
8846 I would like to
address the other theme that NAB was monetizing this and I would like to
address that in a bit.
8847 Jas...?
8848 MS GILL: Yes.
So we will be streaming audio, but as you guys heard last week more and
more people are accessing signals by their computers in office buildings and
sometimes homes and pockets of many cities.
8849 FM signals can
experience multipath and other interference so streaming the signal on the net
is one way to overcome those problems, or at least in part.
8850 So there is one
major concern here, and that is copyright issue. So we certainly don't want to breach any of
those copyright rules and neither do we want to have any retroactive rights
payments. But if that issue is resolved,
we can go and explore that.
8851 Second, in a world
where content is king we need to find a way to repurpose our unique content to
make it available on demand. So to do
this we are going to make our news and other spoken word content available
online, on demand.
8852 We will do this a
number of ways. Like news stories, weather and other content will be posted in
text on the website. Our daily magazine
programs will be available to download onto computers and MP3 files.
8853 Weekly Blues, Folk
and original programming or our specialty programs again will be on our
website, but we have to explore the copyright issues there again.
8854 Third, we would
use our Web to provide more services to our listeners, community billboard kind
of type we want, entertainment news, update on upcoming concerts by Blues or
Folk, Adult Rock and Roots musicians. We
can also direct our listeners toward environmentally friendly products and
services and information.
8855 As Suki was
saying, they go to the website and once we promote it on our radio, they
actually going check out the product and they have a higher percentage of
purchasing after that.
8856 So we would use
the website to promote and explain our CCD initiatives.
8857 As well, we will
also have our announcers, bios and blogs so they feel like they are part of the
community, they are part of the radio station and in turn all these kind of
things actually bring in monetization because you get more ad revenues and
stuff. That's what really happens.
8858 We are also going
to provide hotlinks to the artists and stuff like that to facilitate downloading
and we can probably work something with that.
8859 We are also going
to have like contestants and winners' blogs, et cetera, and stuff like that.
8860 Suki...?
8861 MR. BADH: Thanks, Jas.
8862 One of the
interesting facts I picked up that NAB this year was that U.S. online revenues
have surpassed radio revenues and this includes a healthy chunk of activity on
radio websites.
8863 We will provide
value‑added services for advertisers with banner ads, hot links to their
sites, coupons that listeners can download and through podcasting.
8864 Podcasting brings
the power of voice delivered directly to our prospects, customers, employees,
partners. While text might still be the
most usable format, it is easiest to consume, voice itself has a unique feature
of being able to express emotion and being personally in touch.
8865 Monetizing
podcasting won't come through ads sales or content sales but through
opportunities to enhance their marketing communications with the power of
emotion.
8866 A number of different
ways podcasting can generate revenues, in press releases, direct marketing,
customer relationships, management user support, promotion, e‑commerce,
branding, et cetera, and so forth.
8867 And we do
recognize the opportunity that new media will bring to us. As we noted, there are some issues to be
resolved, but we believe that radio can drive people to our website and our
website can drive people to our radio.
8868 Does that answer
your questions?
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8869 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Yes, it does. It is obvious you have done a lot of work in
understanding this. So thank you.
8870 Just one quick
question. If you were to be awarded this
licence ‑‑ and it is a twofold question ‑‑
how long do you think it would take you to operationalize it; and would you see
having your full rich web experience available at that same time?
8871 MR. KAY: Jim, you have had more experience at this
than I have as far as getting ‑‑
8872 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: We likely could get the
station on air early spring of 09. I
need six months, let's put it that way.
So from decision date to on‑air, six to seven months.
8873 I think
that's ‑‑ in my head bone that is spring of 09.
8874 We would have a
great deal of our Internet linking done, but the one area that concerns us
greatly, again partly because we are a little guy, is the copyright issues,
some of which appear a little cloudy at the moment.
8875 We are not afraid
of them, but we need to be confident that we are on solid ground.
8876 MS GILL: Actually, the website can probably put up
earlier for promotions, probably like two or three months, but all of the
working things like podcasts, those things we wouldn't have aired yet
either. So those things will be, you
know, we will work with copyright issues, but the community links and
developing that community feel, that can be started earlier on.
8877 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
8878 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
8879 I just have a
couple of questions, just quick questions following out of Commissioner
Molnar's questioning.
8880 With respect to
the FACTOR application process, is it a relatively simple process for musicians
or is it a complicated application?
8881 MR. ALLEN: The application itself?
8882 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
8883 MR. ALLEN: Not really.
8884 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Not really.
8885 MR. ALLEN: They have various categories that are
applicable to bands at their various levels where they are at in their careers
in terms of if they are just looking for a demo award or if they are looking
for a travelling award or if they're looking for an independent release. There are various levels of funding.
8886 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So the issue is really just
awareness?
8887 MR. ALLEN: I'm sorry?
8888 THE
CHAIRPERSON: The issue then is just
awareness? The problem is awareness?
8889 MR. ALLEN: Absolutely.
I just really feel that if we did a better job promoting the fact to
Alberta musicians that there is money out there, go for it, but it's a hard
thing to do.
8890 I think with the station
doing it helping, along with our provincial industry association, I feel we can
get the job done and get money that is deserved to be getting out here, because
our artists are just as good as anywhere.
8891 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Great. Thanks.
8892 MR. ALLEN: Thanks.
8893 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
8894 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: Commissioner, if I may ‑‑
8895 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Sure.
8896 MR. McLAUGHLIN:
‑‑ just a little point of interest.
8897 Our CCD commitment
in this application is larger than our original seed money when we created
FACTOR.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
8898 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Interesting. You have to think about that; interesting.
8899 I just wanted to
follow‑up, Mr. Badh, on your point about monetizing the Internet and the
potential that is there.
8900 Would I be right
in assuming that those dollars, revenues and expenses, are not reflected yet in
your projections?
8901 MR. BADH: You are correct, Madam Chair.
8902 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Premature. Okay.
Thank you very much.
8903 Legal has some
questions.
8904 MS LEMOUX: Thank you.
8905 I have a follow‑up
question to Commissioner Molnar's first question.
8906 You have indicated
in your supplementary brief at page 19, and I will quote:
"We will request that where
possible FACTOR direct these monies to independent artists from Alberta."
8907 Have you done so
yet? No?
8908 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: No we have not, but we will
commit to doing so.
8909 MS LEMOUX: Okay.
If you do so, could you provide us with the letter when you do so?
8910 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: Sure.
8911 MS LEMOUX: Thank you.
8912 The second
question ‑‑ and I'm sorry because there is no link between the
questions. It is in answer to Madam
Chair's question in relation to the level of Category 3 music to be aired per
broadcast week. You have stated that you
would devote 30 per cent.
8913 However, it is not
that clear if this 30 per cent is based on the 126‑hour broadcast week or
if it is based on the number of hours of music programming to be offered.
8914 For the purpose of
the condition of licence, could you clarify this for us, please?
8915 MS JANIK: Would you mind, I'm not quite sure
specifically what you are asking me.
8916 MS LEMOUX: Okay.
What I am asking you is: Is it
based on the hours of music programming overall or just the 126 hours broadcast
week?
8917 If it is
based ‑‑
8918 MS JANIK: It would be based on the total amount of
music that we play.
8919 MS LEMOUX: Okay.
Could you provide us with the estimated number of hours of music
programming to be offered over the broadcast week? And then we will figure out how much 30 per
cent will be.
8920 But we need to
figure out how many hours.
8921 MS JANIK: Oh, how many hours of air time will be
devoted to the 30 per cent ‑‑
8922 MS LEMOUX: Yes.
8923 MS JANIK: ‑‑
based on the number of hours that are ‑‑
8924 MS LEMOUX: Exactly.
8925 MS JANIK: I would have to step aside to do the math.
8926 MS LEMOUX: No problem.
Could you provide us by tomorrow or maybe Thursday?
8927 MR. KAY: Yes.
8928 MS JANIK: Absolutely.
8929 MS LEMOUX: That's great.
Thank you.
8930 MR. KAY: Absolutely.
8931 MS LEMOUX: Last, just because your speaking notes will
be added to the public file, I have noticed in your summary of application that
you have deposited with your speaking notes that in the section spoken word you
have not included the 60 minute Planet Pow‑wow spoken word
programming. That was indicated in your
application.
8932 So we just want to
know for the public record if you still intend to pursue that program.
8933 MR. KAY: Yes.
8934 MS LEMOUX: You do.
Okay.
8935 And lastly ‑‑
and it is a very minor thing ‑‑ with respect to the music
commitments, at the Canadian content level commitments you wrote 40 per cent
Category 2, that's great, but 40 per cent Category 4.
8936 Our understanding
is Category 3, but we just want to clear that up for the public record.
8937 MR.
McLAUGHLIN: Obviously a typo. It's 3.
8938 MS LEMOUX: Thank you very much. That's all.
8939 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kay. So this is your two minutes.
8940 MR. KAY: Boy, I do have a good team.
8941 Madam Chair, we
believe that our application responds extremely well to the Commission's
criteria for new radio stations.
8942 First, the
Edmonton market is more than robust. It
has experienced, as we said earlier, incredible growth in recent years, to the
extent that we are confident that the Commission could issue several licences
as a result of this hearing, particularly if one is an ethnic station and one
is an aboriginal station.
8943 Second, the
licensing of an independent station, Planet 107.1, with local resident owners
available to run the station, will have little negative impact on any existing
Edmonton station.
8944 Third, the level
of ownership diversity will be increased by the addition of a new independent
station.
8945 Fourth, editorial
diversity will also increase. Licensing
The Planet will provide Edmonton with a new, independent editorial voice, one
with a very well staffed local news department.
We will not only provide 64 newscasts per week, we will also provide
that daily ‑‑ and I mean seven days a week ‑‑
hour‑long magazine program.
8946 Fifth, our
business plan is very strong and well financed.
Moreover, the financing all comes from the shareholders Jim, Suki and
myself. We have not had to seek out institutional
financing of any kind. We can weather
any storm using additional shareholder financing, if required. And we don't think it will be.
8947 Number six, our
format is based on comprehensive research.
We did not go into this application with a preconceived idea as to any
musical format. The Oakes research, as
we said, reviewed nine different formats, identified 140,000 music lovers in
the Edmonton region who will make up the core of our audience on The Planet.
8948 Number seven, our
strong faith in the quality of Canadian musical artists is reflected in our
very broad CCD proposals. The wide
variety of music styles that will be played on The Planet will allow us to
include Canadian emerging artists that would normally fall through the cracks
of mainstream formats, and they have in the past.
8949 Number eight, our
team has significant experience in building and in managing innovative and
successful radio stations throughout Canada and, in Liz's case, in the U.S. as
well.
8950 Madam Chair,
Commissioners, we appreciate that diversity in all its aspects is a very
important concept. In an increasingly
consolidated Canadian radio industry we now have stations in major markets
across Canada that are owned by a diminishing number of multiple station owners,
playing music in the same small number of generic formats, and we believe that
you have the opportunity to counter that trend by licensing a new, independent
broadcaster in Edmonton was a highly diverse programming format and a
commitment to diversify in employment.
8951 Thank you, Madam
Chair, Commissioners and Commission staff for the generous and open reception
you have given us.
8952 Most important,
thank you for this opportunity to outline our dream to you.
8953 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kay and your
team. We appreciate it.
8954 We are going to
take a break now for lunch and resume at 1 o'clock. Thank you.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing
at 1150 / Suspension à 1150
‑‑‑ Upon resuming
at 1305 / Reprise à 1305
8955 THE
SECRETARY: We will now proceed with Item
20, is which application by Rogers Broadcasting Limited for a licence to
operate an English language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in
Edmonton.
8956 The new station
would operate on frequency 102.3 MhZ, Channel 272C‑1, with an average effective
radiated power of 51,000 watts, maximum effective radiated power of 100,000
watts, antenna height of 240 metres.
8957 Appearing for the
applicant is Paul Ski.
8958 Please introduce
your colleagues. You will then have 20
minutes to make your presentation.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
8959 MR. SKI: Thank you very much.
8960 Madam Chair and
Members of the Commission, my name is Paul Ski and I am the Chief Executive
Officer of Rogers Radio. We are
delighted to be here today to present our application for an all news radio
station in Edmonton to be known as News 102.3.
8961 I am pleased to
have with me today to talk about our all news proposal some true experts in the
format.
8962 To my far left is
Karen Parsons, News Director 660 News, our all news station in Calgary.
8963 To my immediate
left is John Hinnen, Vice‑President of News and General Manager of 680
News.
8964 To my far right is
Tom Bedore, General Manager of our Edmonton stations.
8965 And to my
immediate right is Susan Wheeler, our Vice‑President Regulatory Affairs.
8966 In the back row,
starting from my far left, is Shelley Ruis, General Sales Manager for our
Edmonton radio stations.
8967 Next to Shelley,
Derek Berghuis, Executive Vice‑President Sales, Rogers Radio.
8968 Next is Rael
Merson, President, Rogers Broadcasting.
8969 Next to Rael is
Matthew Mitchell, Business Manager for our Calgary all news station.
8970 Madam Chair and
Commissioners, our presentation today will focus on three key points. First, why a major metropolitan center like
Edmonton needs an all news station. Two,
why Rogers would be the best licensee of an all news station. Three, why this application is in the public
interest.
8971 One of the
attributes of a world‑class city is that it has a critical mass of
stories and culture that looks to itself for reflection rather than to other
media centers. As Alberta's capital city
and the economic center of northern Alberta, Edmonton has that foundation of
stories and culture that is perfectly suited for an all news station.
8972 Edmonton is one of
Canada's fastest growing major metropolitan centers and has an increasing
demand for timely, relevant around‑the‑clock information. Whether it is up to date traffic information
in commute times or information on the city's changeable weather conditions,
the people of Edmonton will find all news radio an incredible resource as they
go about their daily lives.
8973 Industry data
shows that Edmonton's economic growth is outperforming that of most other urban
centers in recent years and that this healthy economic growth is forecast to
continue. The Edmonton radio market has
also experienced strong revenue growth and last year was the fastest growing
radio market in Canada.
8974 News 102.3 will
follow the path of our other all news radio stations and will grow radio
revenue in Edmonton by attracting advertisers who have never used radio before.
8975 News 102.3 will be
the only all news station in Edmonton that offers live local information 24
hours a day, seven days a week. With
reporters on the street around the clock throughout the week and on weekends,
residents of Edmonton will know they can rely on News 102.3 to break and track
the stories they care about.
8976 With its reliable
and consistent news wheel, News 102.3 will offer Edmonton listeners timely
news, traffic, weather, sports and business information. News 102.3 will also bring an entirely fresh
news voice to the Edmonton market, ensuring comprehensive coverage and
reporting on key issues of interest to the people of Edmonton.
8977 Here is how we
will do that.
8978 We will have the
largest radio newsroom in the city, including 39 fulltime journalist, a
dedicated legislative correspondent at the provincial government, a dedicated
airborne traffic resource and meteorologist who will ensure up‑to‑the‑minute
traffic and weather information and an enhanced online and multiplatform
content offering.
8979 MS PARSONS: One of the key things for us whenever we
launch an all news services is to explain the format to our listeners. Many think it is just a radio station that
does more talk. In reality, all news is
as different from talk radio as Country music is from Rock.
8980 Our all news
station is consistent every hour, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Our all news stations feature some core
elements.
8981 If you look at the
news wheel or the clock that we have appended to the back of our oral
presentation, you will see how we propose to run our all news station here in
Edmonton.
8982 It looks like
this. I don't know if you want to
reference it.
8983 We will broadcast
six traffic reports per hour, one minute past the hour, 11, 21, 31, 41 and 51
minutes past. As we say, we have traffic
and weather together on the ones every hour.
8984 We also broadcast
sports twice hourly, at 15 and 45 minutes past every hour. Edmontonians are avid sports fans and our
sports segments will broadcast more than just the score.
8985 We also broadcast
business reports twice hourly, at 26 and 56 minutes past the hour every
hour. A few years ago when the stock
markets became more volatile, we felt running business reports twice hourly
might not be enough, so we added what we call market minutes twice hourly, at
13 and 43 minutes past the hour.
8986 Our all news
stations are all based on a similar news wheel or clock, but the content is
customized to each specific market. Our
lead stories will always reflect what people are or will be talking about in
the community.
8987 News 102.3 will
focus more on breaking news than any other station in the market. Unlike news talk stations that normally wait
for a newscast at the top or bottom of the hour, we will break in at a moment's
notice.
8988 For example,
earlier this year when an Air Canada plane was forced to make an emergency
landing at the Calgary International Airport injuring 10 people on board, our
660 news team was the first to break the story, arriving on the scene even
before the emergency response teams.
8989 As we say, you can
read about it tomorrow, see it tonight or hear it now.
8990 We will also place
considerable focus on traffic. Like many
major metropolitan centers, the residents of Edmonton are concerned about
traffic and commute times. We know that
one of Edmonton's biggest local issues is that its infrastructure has not kept
pace with its economic and demographic boom.
Our in‑depth and consistent traffic reporting will make News 102.3
the go‑to station in the market for traffic information.
8991 When it comes to
traffic information, we are constantly looking for ways to improve our traffic
surveillance. In fact, we have a number
of very exciting developments on that front.
We are launching a new service that will allow us to measure the speed
of traffic on any road or street in this country by utilizing the speed at
which cell phones are travelling. This
will allow us to provide a unique and personalized service to our listeners.
8992 The other great
strength of our service, which will be of particular value to Edmonton
listeners, is our weather reporting.
News 102.3 will have a dedicated meteorologist to track Edmonton's
changeable weather patterns because we understand the value in getting weather
information out to the public that is timely and accurate, particularly during
severe weather conditions.
8993 Again, due to the
fact that our format is so consistent, people can rely on us to give them
weather when they want it.
8994 Consistency is the
key to our format. We know that our
listeners rely on our stations to be on time with our various information
elements and we always are. You can set
your clocks by it. As news professionals
we know that news never stops. That's
why we place such importance on the fact that News 102.3 will be live 24 hours
a day, seven days a week.
8995 We know that an
emergency can strike at any time and we want to be the station of record when
it comes to any major breaking story, whether it happens at 3:00 in the
afternoon or 3:00 in the morning.
8996 We also recognize
that in today's information‑based society people expect to get news
information when and how they want it.
That's why News 102.3 will also have a strong online and multiplatform
content. News 102.3 will make its
content available on demand using a variety of customizable distribution
platforms, including Internet streaming, SMS text messaging, podcasts and audio
clip downloads.
8997 News 102.3 will
have an extensive Web component that provides listeners with the opportunity to
subscribe to features such as breaking news alerts or the latest traffic
reports via the Internet or mobile phone.
8998 News 102.3 will
also have a dedicated staff responsible for updating its website on a regular
basis as news stories and information come into the station.
8999 For example, News
102.3 reporters will carry cameras in their kit bags so they can post pictures
of breaking news stories while they are on location.
9000 In short, our
local news and information content will be available any time, anywhere, by
whatever means the listener prefers. Our
goal is to make News 102.3's website an information portal in Edmonton that
complements and builds on our on‑air news content.
9001 I am particularly
proud that my station, 660 News in Calgary, won the award for best newscast in
a major market in the Prairie region from the RTNDA in its very first year of
operation.
9002 MR. HINNEN: At Rogers we believe in the all news
format. In fact, it was June 7, 1993, 15
years ago this week, that Rogers Broadcasting made the bold move of switching a
profitable AM radio station, CFTR, to 680 News.
At the time CFTR was a successful Top 40 radio station and was earning
around $1 million a year.
9003 It was at that
point that Tony Viner, President and CEO of Rogers Media, went to Ted Rogers
and said Ted, I have a great idea for you.
I know we are profitable but I have this plan to launch an all news
station that will lose $3 million next year.
He explained our plan for 680 News and Ted said of course, go for it.
9004 Today 680 News is
one of Canada's most successful radio stations and has become a template for
similar stations around the world. In
the last BBM ratings 680 News set a new Canadian ratings record with nearly 1.3
million listeners tuning in each week.
9005 Two and a half
years after the launch of 680 News we launched News 1130 in Vancouver. Like Toronto, it took many years for the
station to become profitable, but by last year News 1130 had more listeners
than any station in Vancouver.
9006 Building on that
success, we launched our third all news station in Calgary, 660 News, which has
now been operating for just over two years.
While not yet profitable, it too is performing according to our
projections.
9007 Today Rogers
Broadcasting operates seven award winning all news and news talk radio stations
across Canada. No broadcaster has more
experience at all news than we do.
Through years of hard work and considerable investment, Rogers has
established unparalleled expertise in this format. In fact, we have been asked by broadcasters
from around the world to assist them in developing this format in cities such
as London, Moscow and Beijing and many have visited our stations to learn more
about how we deliver this format.
9008 Our all news
stations are also regularly recognized by the industry for their broadcasting
excellence, having received a number of local, regional, national and
international awards year after year.
9009 For example, this
year Vancouver's News 1130 received an Excellence in News Reporting Award from
the British Columbia Association of Broadcasters. Toronto's 680 News received America's RTNBA Edward
R. Murrow Award for best newscast in a major market and also this year was
named At Canadian Music Week's best news/talk/sports station of the year. It is the fourth year in a row we have won
that award.
9010 Just this weekend
News 95.7 in Halifax received the Gordon Sinclair Award for best live special
event coverage from the Atlantic region's RTNBA for its tracking of the
tropical storm Noel.
9011 We are truly proud
of these accomplishments and have attached a partial list of some of the awards
that our news stations have won.
9012 MR. BEDORE: We believe there are four important reasons
why licensing this application is in the public interest.
9013 Number one,
editorial diversity in the market will be enhanced. News 102.3 will bring a fresh local news
alternative to the Edmonton market by expanding and enriching the news and
information sources available on radio.
The result will be a richer and more diverse marketplace of editorial
voices.
9014 The Edmonton radio
market is currently served by two information stations. However, their content is derived from
essentially the same source. So while
Edmonton radio listeners may appear to have a choice of two stations, they are
hearing largely the same editorial perspective and content on both. With live 24‑hour local programming,
News 102.3 will bring a new and independent voice to the radio market and offer
a true news alternative to what is currently available to Edmonton radio
listeners.
9015 Number two, we
will grow radio revenue in Edmonton. All
news more than any other format can bring new advertising categories into radio
because of its high impact performance results.
Traditional advertisers on radio target consumer segments like adults 25‑to‑54
and buy their advertising on the basis of ratings. All news radio advertisers target other
businesses and owners, managers and professionals and buy based on results and
the quality of the audience rather than ratings. These advertisers tend to come from the
financial, business to business, advocacy and automotive categories.
9016 All news is also a
different format for advertisers because it offers active listening unlike most
music formats, which tend to be listened to passively. This is particularly attractive to small and
medium sized local businesses as it gives them an accessible platform to market
their businesses in their community and allows for more targeted advertising.
9017 Also, no
commercial break will be longer than 60 seconds. That means more commercial impact for
advertisers.
9018 The Edmonton
market continues to experience strong growth and the revenues earned by our all
news station will only be a small share of the expected revenue growth in the
market. As a result, we believe our
station will have a minimal impact on the existing stations.
9019 Number three, we
will make substantial long‑term investments in capital and human
resources. Our proposal involves a level
of investment and long‑term commitment that is not easily matched by
other broadcasters. The fact that we are
the sole applicant in this proceeding to propose a spoken word specialty format
clearly supports this assertion.
9020 In licensing News
102.3, the Commission will ensure Edmonton has a live, local, 24 hours a day,
seven days a week radio station with the largest radio newsroom in the market.
9021 Few broadcasters
are willing to sustain the losses required to establish this unique type of
service in the community. Rogers has the
business acumen, the expertise, the resources and, most importantly, the
commitment to make News 102.3 a viable radio service that truly reflect the
needs and demands of the people of Edmonton.
9022 Number four, our
benefits package is directly targeted at the training and development of local
spoken word and journalistic talent. In addition
to the significant investments in capital and human resources associated with
offering this type of format, we also propose to make tangible contributions to
Canadian Content Development initiatives, over and above basic requirements,
totalling $1.5 million over the seven‑year licence term.
9023 Our proposed
tangible benefit commitments are designed to strengthen the quality and
diversity of news voices in the system through training and development
opportunities for spoken word and journalistic talent on four different levels.
9024 At the grassroots
level Rogers will direct $300,000 to the Radio in the Schools Program to
support the creation of radio and multimedia content and skill building by
Edmonton public high school students.
9025 Second, we propose
to direct $175,000 to the Northern Alberta Institute of Technology in support
of journalism workshops at the university and college level.
9026 The third level,
the Rogers News Access Program will provide $525,000 in funding to enhance the
provision of diverse and alternative points of view by campus and community
radio stations.
9027 Finally, we will
direct half a million dollars to the Canadian Media Research Consortium in
support of mentoring programs for practising journalists to enhance their
knowledge and improve their skills. This
funding will also support the production of the consortium's State of the
Industry Report on trends affecting journalism in Canada. This will be extremely useful to the industry
and the Commission in evaluating the health and quality of editorial voices in
the system.
9028 We are confident
these tangible benefit contributions will have a positive impact on the
development of spoken word and journalistic talent.
9029 However, the true
value of the benefits of this application is the community service role this
station will have in the Edmonton market.
No other station will offer the same level of investment and commitment
to local programming and community reflection as News 102.3.
9030 MR. SKI: Madam Chair and Members of the Commission,
the Edmonton radio market needs the type of live local around‑the‑clock
news service News 102.3 will provide.
Our proposal will enhance diversity of voices in the market and balance
the editorial perspective currently available to Edmonton radio listeners. We will provide support for community
broadcasting and promote the development of young journalistic and spoken word
talent.
9031 As a specialty
licence, the Commission can be confident that Rogers will adhere to its
commitments to this format throughout its licence term. As an FM station, News 102.3 will be
accessible on new and portable devices, giving it the ability to reach a larger
portion of the population and be of greater value to emergency response
services.
9032 News 102.3 will
have a minimal impact on incumbent radio stations, given that our projected
annual advertising revenues can be accommodated largely within the natural
growth of the market. And we have the
experience, the resources, the expertise and the commitment to deliver on the
promise of this proposal.
9033 As we have done in
Vancouver, Calgary and Toronto, Rogers will establish a strong and respected
news presence in the community with highly visible local on‑air talent, a
seasoned professional news staff and experienced local traffic reporters.
9034 With approval of
this application, we will provide a high quality, timely and relevant news and
information service that by focusing on breaking news, traffic and weather is
responsive to the needs of the people of Edmonton.
9035 We have a winning
formula for News 102.3 and we are eager to get on with the challenge.
9036 Thank you for your
attention. We would be pleased to answer
any of your questions.
9037 Thank you.
9038 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Ski.
9039 Commissioner
Molnar will be leading the questions.
COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Thank you and welcome here this afternoon.
9040 I appreciate your
opening remarks. They help me somewhat
in what I'm going to frame as my first question to you.
9041 I was looking
through your application and I was looking at the financials and, frankly, it
is a bit astounding to see what a large investment it takes to operate a news
format. Looking at Edmonton and the
growth in this market, one of my questions, one of the things that came to me
quickly was why would Rogers choose to do news with all the opportunities and
all the potential revenues that could be generated in this market?
9042 You know, you can
please answer. I see in your opening
remarks clearly you are very proud of what you can do with your news program
but were there any other reasons why you chose this format?
9043 MR. SKI: Thank you, Commissioner Molnar.
9044 As we said, this
particular format is part of the DNA of Rogers.
We believe we are the experts, as we said. I won't go over the opening comments.
9045 As someone who is
somewhat new to Rogers from another place, I watched from afar and quite
admired the fact that they were willing to take a format that was new to Canada
and develop it and stay the course for 15 years; I mean, tremendous losses over
that time.
9046 So the question
is: Why would you do that? There are a couple of reasons.
9047 One is that this
is the type of format that is very durable.
Yes, you have losses in the first few years, the first several years,
depending on how things happen, but at the end of the day, once it becomes
profitable, it can become quite profitable if you are willing to stay the
course, as I think Rogers has proven that it has done.
9048 The other part of
that too is that it is a format where there are some barriers to entry for
others if you are successful in it. So
unlike a music format that can be changed actually by tomorrow morning, this
type of format can't be and it is very difficult for others to duplicate this
format. So it is durable over time.
9049 I think the other
point is that in the future, as now, we are looking for other platforms to make
this more of a multimedia experience for listeners. This type of format gives us content that's
not easy to duplicate and from that standpoint it helps to put us in a better
position for the future.
9050 So that's why, for
all those reasons and a few of the others, that's why we think it is certainly
worth the investment.
9051 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Thank you for that.
9052 One of the
questions that is first and foremost is what is the impact, what do you
perceive to be the impact on the incumbent news talk station CHED?
9053 MR. SKI: Commissioner Molnar, it's a different type of
radio station. It is a news talk radio
station and our experience ‑‑ and this particular group has
had lots of it and I will have Derek give you an idea of what happens from a
revenue standpoint.
9054 But if you look at
our ‑‑ and I know you have looked at our financials. I think the revenue that we plan in the first
year, first couple of years, as we have said, I think will probably be absorbed
by market growth to begin with.
9055 The other aspect
of this is that by and large past experience shows that no one radio station is
hurt that much because it is a different type of format.
9056 This format is
based largely on results and relationships with clients and different clients.
9057 I will have Derek
kind of give you maybe a broader perspective because he lives and breathes this
every day.
9058 MR. BERGHUIS: Thank you, Paul.
9059 I suppose in
answering the question, Madam Commissioner, history is always a good indicator
of what is going to happen and we can really speak to our experience in
Toronto, Vancouver and Calgary.
9060 When I returned
home to Canada some 13 years ago this month to help with a little 680 project
in Toronto, it really was quite amazing to me.
We couldn't get arrested in the major agencies in Toronto. As much as I would like to have had Eaton's
on the air back then, they were a huge advertiser in Canada. The Bay.
The Bay to this day is not on 680 news.
We don't get Listen up Canada. We
very rarely get Sleep Country Canada on our all news station.
9061 So we don't get
the conventional radio advertisers.
9062 Back to Edmonton
specifically, this is an $82 million market.
If you look at our first year projected revenues of $1.2 million ‑‑
and we were conservative with a 40 per cent coming from existing stations,
conservative meaning high. It may be
closer to 30 per cent, but we wanted to be saying that it's the low hanging
fruit. Of course we will pick off the
trees first and we will go around and canvass all of our existing relationships
that SONiC‑FM has and that World FM has in the market.
9063 But what news
does, and I saw over the years, is there was very little overlap in Toronto
between the 680 advertisers and the CFRB 1010, the news talk advertisers.
9064 The same was borne
out with News 1130 in Vancouver and then the competitor, if you will, News Talk
CKNW, again, very, very little overlap.
9065 News is uncanny in
its ability ‑‑ and we work with a lot of formats, and I have
over the years. My love is all news
obviously and that is known to all my colleagues, and I don't want to be too
partial to it. But they would agree with
me that news brings more advertisers into radio than any other format on the
planet.
9066 When I came back
to Canada 13 years ago I looked at a lot of the all news formats are around the
States, and Detroit fascinated me because in Detroit they had business‑to‑business
like crazy on the all news station.
Automotive Parts Suppliers advertising to reach the purchasing
departments in the big three automotive manufacturers.
9067 Again, it is not
like Sears advertising its weekend sale.
It was very specific targeted business‑to‑business
advertising.
9068 That came to pass
in Toronto too, obviously a different type of business to business. In Toronto you can't turn on 680 News without
hearing some very technical advertising that sometimes I don't even understand
what they are advertising. It is a very
complicated technical services that companies are selling into the financial
industry in Toronto to the service sector.
9069 Shelley will speak
in a minute about how that may manifest itself down the road in Edmonton.
9070 Edmonton is an oil
and gas center and it is quite likely that we will have a lot of business‑to‑business
advertising; again, totally new advertising to radio.
9071 The other thing, I
mean the other huge category for us in the all news sector is financial. Financial is broad, but it is retail banking,
it is commercial banking. It is
mortgages. It is all kinds of insurance
products, not only retail insurance products but business insurance products
and mutual funds, investment products.
9072 Business‑to‑business,
I'm just going to go back to that for a minute.
9073 One of my
favourite early advertisers in Toronto that that became an advertiser in
Vancouver with us was the British Trade Commission, and they were advertising
site selection. So they want to reach
chief executive officers and chief operating officers in companies who would be
locating manufacturing or distribution arms of their companies in the European
market and saying hey, come to Britain.
9074 We helped them
develop that campaign. Q9 Networks which
stores data for companies, as soon as we launched in Calgary, they said can we
be on that station as well.
9075 So business‑to‑business
is a huge part of what we do.
9076 Admittedly a big,
big category for us is automotive and the dealers love this format. That is the part of what we do that
intersects with other radio stations because auto dealers do love the
format. In the early days we couldn't
get the manufacturers on because they were all coming through the agencies and,
again, we couldn't get arrested in the agencies because we didn't have a lot of
ratings and we didn't have gross rating points.
9077 Our advertisers in
all news usually don't know what gross rating points are. They want results and they are grassroots
owner operators in many cases.
9078 We do have
consumer advertising and a lot of it is all news exclusive. It is a decision made grassroots by local
owner‑operators.
9079 One example in
Toronto which I think is kind of funny is Short Man Brown's. It's a store that sells clothing to short
men. And I would often say why are they
on the air with us with just two stores and we can't get The Bay.
9080 But it is, again,
Short Man Brown the proprietor is making the decision and he measures his
response by how his sales go and who comes in the door.
9081 Another thing,
advocacy advertising. It was totally new
to Canada really when 680 launched.
Didn't get a whole lot of advocacy advertising in radio.
9082 Toronto is the
provincial capital. A lot of decisions
are made at the economic and political center of Ontario. Advocacy allows unions to get on the air,
public interest groups and there's no reason why Edmonton, being the provincial
capital in Alberta, would be any different.
9083 I'm going to let
Shelley talk a little bit more to the Edmonton market. She has been here her entire career and will
speak to some of the areas where she thinks there is great opportunity in this
format.
9084 MS RUIS: Thanks, Derek.
9085 I have lived in
Edmonton my whole life and I have spent the last 13 years selling radio in this
market. The first 10 of those years
actually was with World FM, our station in the market.
9086 With that
particular station where I see some similarities with our all news station is
that we were looking for nontraditional revenue advertising. So we went and we learned how to sort of dig
up the businesses that would be looking for sort of a more specialty audience,
looking to reach a very specific market.
We have seen some success in doing that and so we certainly are the
experts in the market in finding that niche type of advertising formats.
9087 I was also part of
the launch of SONiC‑FM, so I know how difficult it can be to start
selling advertising in a start‑up station when you have no ratings and
really no background on the format.
9088 So you know, it is
a competitive market and we did learn how to pave our path there.
9089 But Edmonton is a
booming economy and, you know, I was at a function not too long ago and I was
speaking with a fellow who owns an electrical company that they send
electricians up north into Fort McMurray, into the oil and gas industry up
there, and I was telling him about this format and sort of some of the
successes that other advertisers like him have had in some of our other
markets. He could really see that that
was something that would be of great interest to him because he would be
reaching advertisers, other business owners that could not only use his
services up north but could also use them within their own markets here in
Edmonton.
9090 Some other areas
where we have seen some success and have seen some interest is again in some of
that advocacy when we talk about unions.
That is a very topical thing in Alberta as well.
9091 So, you know, we
do have a lot of experience in this market looking at nontraditional
advertisers, and we think we can be very successful with that here.
9092 MR. SKI: Commissioner Molnar, I'm not sure if I
mentioned that Derek was in sales ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
9093 MR. SKI: ‑‑
earlier on in the introduction, but I know you specifically asked about CHED
and I wanted to make sure that we gave you a fulsome answer. I hope we got close.
9094 But if I could
just mention one quick thing, Corus has about 32 per cent of the market tuning
here in Edmonton and I think if we look at our projections for the first year,
we think will affect a lot of the stations on an almost equal basis. That has been the past history of the
development of this format.
9095 Even if we do
impact them a little bit more, which is possible, it might be $50,000 or
$100,000. It is an insignificant amount,
quite frankly, with someone who has that kind of market share.
9096 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Thank you for that.
9097 While it has
likely been answered, I understand you are saying it is a minimal impact and I
understand what you are saying about you will generate in large part new
advertisers, new advertising dollars.
Your application states that 40 per cent of revenues will come from
existing radio stations.
9098 So could you give
me a breakdown of that, including the anticipated ‑‑ and I
think you did just answer, as it relates particularly to CHED.
9099 But if you could
break down that 40 per cent of revenues, I would appreciate that.
9100 MR. SKI: Yes, we could do that. By and large ‑‑ we can
supply that to you I guess in due course.
9101 But essentially
from what we have seen historically, it is almost equal. If you take 16 stations in the market, for
instance, that means in our first year it will affect them by about $30,000,
because roughly 40 per cent of our $1.2 million is roughly $500,000, so about
$30,000 per station.
9102 Again, that is on
average. It could go up a little bit, it
could go down, but it might be 50,000, it might be 70,000, but that's an
average.
9103 If you would like
it by station, we could take a guess at that, given our past history.
9104 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: That's not necessary,
thanks. So the sense is there is there
is no particular impact on the existing news talk station, no more than on any
other station in the market?
9105 MR. SKI: No, not really. I mean there could be slightly more given
that they are in a similar format, but as Derek says, a lot of the ad buys on
that station are based more on ratings than on our station, primarily because
the rating or reach of the radio station normally isn't as high. Sorry, the reach is normally as high but the
time spent listening is lower.
9106 So most
advertising buys are based on time spent listening which means ‑‑
and Derek alluded to it ‑‑ our station has lower time spent
listening because people listen three, four times a day to the station, at
least we hope they will, and that's normally the way that it is tuned. So they are not with us for a long period of
time. It reduces the time spent
listening.
9107 Having said that,
we tend to have a very high reach. As we
mentioned in the opening remarks, 680 News reaches more people than any other
radio station in Canada.
9108 So while we
reached them, for advertising agencies to place a buy, they placed those buys
on average hours tuned or time spent listening so we're down the scale. So that is why we had to go in a different
direction, call on business‑to‑business and local advertisers.
9109 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Thank you.
9110 I'm going to turn
to the issue of synergies.
9111 You note in your
supplementary brief that there will be synergies in news sharing with your
other stations in Alberta, particularly your stations in Edmonton. I assume that might be news sharing and news
staff.
9112 Is that right?
9113 MR. SKI: No.
The sharing that we will do, I think we said we are hiring 39 new
broadcast journalists for this because it's really quite separate from World,
our ethics station, and from SONiC, our Modern Rock station there. They are as diverse as diverse can be. They are three very different stations.
9114 So our sharing is
essentially building administrative synergies, technical, finance, back
office. That's where the majority of the
sharing comes for us.
9115 As I think you
have seen, 60 per cent of our costs of operating this nation are in
programming, which is higher than any other station obviously because it is
labour intensive, and 85 per cent of that 60 per cent programming cost is
people.
9116 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: So would you be using the 39
people who are generating these news stories to support your existing stations
within the market?
9117 MR. SKI: Again, we have separate people doing the news
on both of those radio stations because it is a different type of station.
9118 I might have John
or Karen just kind of ‑‑ they're the people who do it every
day ‑‑ just kind of maybe elaborate on that a bit.
9119 MS PARSONS: Although as a News Director I am quite
enthused about the idea of tapping into World in particular for potential news
stories, or maybe some of our talent, there will be no overlap. Like the 39 that we are proposing to hire
here in Edmonton would be separate from anybody who worked on World FM or SONiC. SONiC has a very different sound than what we
would be interested in.
9120 MR. SKI: I should mention, too, if I could, that the
39 are incremental. That is incremental
staff to what we may have now in the existing cluster now.
9121 There is one other
thing that I may have forgotten, is that we will have a dedicated legislative
reporter which we don't have now and of course if we can, we will have that
person provide materials to our stations and to our northern Alberta stations.
9122 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Okay. Thank you.
9123 I just wanted to
confirm that bringing in this news voice wouldn't affect the news voices that
were already out there with your existing stations.
9124 MR. SKI: No, not at all.
9125 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: No. Thank you.
9126 I would like to
turn to the issue of CCD, your Canadian Content Development, and I just need to
clarify a few things. Some of this I
think is easily clarified.
9127 In section 8(a) of
your application form you indicated that you plan to exceed the basic CCD
contributions by allocating an additional $214,285 a year to CCD. Correct?
9128 MR. SKI: That's correct.
9129 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: If I do math, would that equal
$1.5 million?
9130 MR. SKI: That's correct.
9131 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Okay. Great.
9132 Just so that we
are clear on your financials that you have attached, you show Canadian Content
Development at that $214,000 and I assume, because you represented it in
thousands, that we have lost a few of the pennies. So that $214,000 is your over and above?
9133 MR. SKI: Yes.
9134 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: So where in your financials is
your basic contribution?
9135 MR. SKI: The basic contribution ‑‑
and we would be happy to split that out for you, if you like ‑‑
is in the programming news line of the financials.
9136 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Okay, thanks. I will leave it to legal if that's necessary
or not. They will tell you later. Thank you.
9137 Just some
questions on the specific elements that you have proposed to deliver to.
9138 I am going to just
flip to this in your opening remarks so we can maybe follow there.
9139 Starting with the
first, at the grassroots level, the $300,000 to Radio in the Schools
program. Just to clarify, I am certain
that you are very aware of the 2006 Commercial Radio Policy and what it noted
as being eligible contributions.
9140 Can you give us
some further details regarding how this $300,000 would be allocated to ensure
that it in fact meets the requirements of the commercial radio policy?
9141 MR. SKI: Yes. I
will ask Susan to answer that.
9142 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Thank you.
9143 MS WHEELER: Thank you.
9144 I will explain why
we see that fitting within the new Commercial Radio Policy and then I will ask
Tom to give you some specifics on how the program will work, since he has been
interfacing with Steven Wright who is going to administer the program on our
behalf, if approved.
9145 One of the larger
changes to the Commercial Radio Policy and the Canadian Content Development
policy in and of itself was that the Commission brought in that to allow for
training and development opportunities for spoken word talent. Similar to how the Commission recognizes
Instruments in the Schools as being an eligible CCD initiative to further
musical development and education, we see that the Radio in the Schools program
is an analogous type initiative whereby we are giving the tools and the
instruments to broadcast journalists of the future to really develop some
skills and develop some skill building, I guess, in that field.
9146 I will allow Tom
to explain how it is going to work in practice, but we do see this as being
integral to development of spoken word talent for the broadcasting system.
9147 MR. BEDORE: Edmonton Public Schools have been looking at
a new system that is taking place in Portland, Oregon. It is called a Skill Center. They have been looking at it here in Edmonton
primarily because over the past 10 or 15 years there have been a lot of high
school students who have left high school before graduating. They have seen the dollar signs in the oil
patch and so they go do that for a while and before they know it, they have no
other skills.
9148 So radio and
television journalism is one area that obviously we are very interested
in. We came to them and they felt it
would fit beautifully with their skill center.
9149 So what we hope to
do is encourage some of these young students who do have an interest in
journalism already, or maybe more importantly don't have that interest yet, we
feel the Skill Center is going to give them a really good idea about what a career
in journalism can be, how exciting it can be.
Maybe you can't make quite as much money as you can in the oil patch,
but it can be a very rewarding career.
9150 So we see this as
just a great opportunity for the students and for the post secondary institutions
here in Alberta that provide journalism courses. We think they will see great results from
that in the very near future.
9151 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Thank you.
9152 Just help me
understand what particularly you would be spending the money on. The Skills Center and what would that
include?
9153 MR. BEDORE: It would be program materials, so the books,
the courses. In some cases we would
probably help out ‑‑ you know, they would use the money to buy
microphones and boards and other tools that journalists would use. Of course, many of the tools journalists use
in this day and age are all electronic and there are new features coming out
all the time, as Karen can attest to.
9154 So we want to make
the Skill Center as cutting‑edge as we can so that when the students
enrol at NAIT, they are already familiar with the software and the hardware
associated with broadcast journalism.
9155 MS WHEELER: Commissioner Molnar, we would be happy to
provide you and the Commission with a breakdown of the budget that will be
allocated towards this initiative, if that is at all helpful or of interest to
the Commission.
9156 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Thank you. I am looking for a similar breakdown for the
Canadian Media Research Consortium.
9157 MS WHEELER: We don't have that presently but we would be
happy to provide that to you.
9158 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Fair enough and thanks for that.
9159 Is this something
that you can provide within a couple of days?
9160 MS WHEELER: We will make best efforts. Obviously we are dependent on our third‑party
administrators to provide us with that information, but we will make best
efforts to be able to provide that to you.
9161 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Thank you.
9162 Just to follow up
since we don't have those details, if it was determined that they are not
eligible, could you confirm that the CCD funds that you have earmarked for
these initiatives would be redirected into eligible projects?
9163 MS WHEELER: Absolutely.
9164 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Okay. Thanks.
9165 Would you be able
to tell us right now if they were deemed to be ineligible, where you would
redirect those funds?
9166 MS WHEELER: We have cautioned some of our recipients that
the Commission might not be of the view that these fall within the Commercial
Radio Policy's criteria for eligible initiatives, so we have committed to
redirecting them within the initiatives already identified.
9167 So it would likely
be, depending on which initiatives you deemed not to be eligible, they would be
reallocated.
9168 COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Just prorated. Just prorated between what is eligible, what
is deemed eligible.
9169 MS WHEELER: Yes. That's right.
9170 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Okay. Thank you.
9171 I also would like
to ask you about the Community Radio Fund, your monies that you have directed
there.
9172 I believe you sent
a letter that indicated that with the money the fund would be eligible to spend
a maximum of 12 per cent of that towards their administrative costs.
9173 MS WHEELER: It was our understanding that that was sanctioned
by the Commission when it was certified as an independent production fund.
9174 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Yes. And so you are probably aware that after that
time a decision came out which stated that the fund is allowed to retain up to
20 per cent of the first $200,000 in revenues and after that 5 per cent for
admin fees for all monies over and above the $200,000.
9175 So in light of
that, and based upon the amount that you are proposing here, would you be
willing to go back to the fund and obtain a letter attesting to the fact that
the 7 per cent, the difference between a 12 per cent in the 5 per cent
allowable, will be reinvested into your initiative?
9176 MS WHEELER: We would be pleased to do that, yes.
9177 Just to clarify,
this proposal was made before the Commission had certified the Radio Fund and
those criteria had been put in place. So
we would be happy to do that.
9178 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Yes. We understand that as well, so thank you.
9179 MS WHEELER: Yes.
9180 COMMISSIONER
MOULDER: Just a couple more questions.
9181 You heard here
that some of the applicants said there are four frequencies, there are four
available. I wondered what your views
were regarding the market capacity here in Edmonton to support a number of new
licence applications.
9182 MR. SKI: In terms of frequencies or in terms of number
of stations?
9183 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Well, not just what frequencies,
but the number of stations.
9184 MR. SKI: I think that really depends on the formats
that might be licensed. Certainly our
belief has always been that if there are fewer stations, two or three licensed,
then it gives those stations a little bit of time to become immersed in the
market and at least give themselves some type of share so that they can at
least be profitable and successful over time.
9185 When we looked at
frequencies, we looked at I think about three or four different frequencies,
some better than others. And I think
dependent on the type of radio station, the type of format that a station has,
the ability to reach enough listeners becomes extremely important.
9186 For instance, in
our particular situation the frequency we have applied for, 102.3, is third
adjacent to both of our radio stations, third adjacent to SONiC and third
adjacent to World.
9187 What does that
mean? It means that if it is third
adjacent, there could be potential interference. With engineering briefs they are theoretical
and so you don't know until you actually put the station on the air what will
happen.
9188 That has been
problematic over the years when certain licences have been granted. But we certainly believe that 102.3 would be
the best frequency for us, for essentially two reasons.
9189 One, it gives us
enough reach. I alluded to the fact
earlier that this type of format requires that reach in order to be successful.
9190 The second part of
it is that we can control the interference.
It is lodged between our two stations so we have the ability to control
any interference that there is with any of our radio stations. So where it would be difficult for another
applicant that is licensed, obviously given the difficult position of an ethnic
station, with World, and given that SONiC is in the developmental stages, we
would be reluctant to give up any coverage for either of those two radio
stations obviously unless it might be to, say, ourselves.
9191 So as a result,
that is obviously one of the frequencies we think best for us.
9192 The other reason
for that is that we also can control the potential interference because we can
collocate the antenna for that particular frequency on our tower. So it is the most efficient way obviously, as
far as we are concerned, the most efficient way to use the frequency.
9193 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Okay, fair.
9194 Frequency aside,
you mentioned that you thought there was room for only a couple new entrants?
9195 MR. SKI: We think two or three, again depending on the
type of format. Certainly we have had
challenges with our ethnic station here, no question. SONiC is in the early developmental stages.
9196 I know that the
Commission will deliberate long and hard about the need that there is in the
market for certain types of applicants, certain types of stations. We have only heard very few so far so it is
hard for us to say too much, other than certainly if another Ethnic station was
licensed or if another Rock station was licensed, they would affect us the
most.
9197 So if there were
stations that were licensed that weren't either Rock or Ethnic, then maybe
three would be good. If they were Rock
or Ethnic, then maybe quite a few less than three would be best for us.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
9198 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Thank you.
9199 I hear what you
are saying as it relates to the impact on Rogers and your own stations. The economic capacity of Edmonton and its
growth, you would agree, would support maybe three?
9200 MR. SKI: Yes.
9201 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Yes, okay. Thank you.
9202 Those are my
questions. Thank you very much.
9203 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
9204 Commissioner
Cugini...?
9205 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you, Madam Chair.
9206 Good afternoon.
9207 I really just have
one question and that is: Why do you
think that this format ‑‑ why do you think that this is the
best use of an FM frequency?
9208 One of the things
we hear is the one thing that is saving AM, for example, is talk. Certainly 680 is on AM and I believe the
Calgary station is on AM.
9209 So how is this the
best use of an FM frequency in this market?
9210 And you have
notes, Mr. Ski, so were you ready for this?
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
9211 MR. SKI: Even without notes, I have been thinking
about this. The notes are just there in
case I forget under the bright lights.
9212 Well, I think
there are quite a few reasons why FM at this particular point in time. We don't have an AM at the present time for
starters. But I think, too, the format
costs for all news are cost and labour intensive already.
9213 If you are
mounting a new AM radio station, then AM adds another ‑‑ could
add another four to $5 million in terms of building the infrastructure in order
to put an AM signal on the air. That is
because of the fact that you have to buy land, you know, and then we are in the
business of tall towers and big fields quite frankly, whereas with FM you are
one tower. You put your antenna on a tower; you may be sharing it with others.
9214 That is not the
case with AM. You are normally dedicated
to one particular radio station.
9215 So it takes up our
costs maybe another $5 million. Given
that the costs are already quite large, it becomes difficult these days to do
that.
9216 Second, reach is
pretty important, as I mentioned earlier, to us in this particular format and
so an FM signal allows us to penetrate buildings better. It allows us to reach more people and
obviously attract more potential listeners.
9217 The operating
costs would change our business model quite substantially because operating
costs on the AM band tend to be twice what they are on FM just because of power
consumption.
9218 I think
fourthly ‑‑ I think I am to four ‑‑ it is the
future of the format. Obviously when we
first launched the all news format it was 15 years ago and at that particular
time it was a different point in time and we have been successful, but it took
a very long time. We think on FM it will
take a shorter amount of time.
9219 There has been a
movement in the U.S. for news talk and all news radio stations to move from AM
to FM. It allows us to reach ‑‑
and this is important for us for the future ‑‑ allows us to
reach younger listeners, because there is a bit of a social stigma of younger
listeners listening to AM radio.
9220 It's a
challenge. It's why most news/talk
stations tend to target ‑‑ well, not necessarily target, they
tend to get audiences that are 45‑plus.
But if you have a similar format on FM, you have an opportunity at least
to have those people listen to your station because there is an affinity for
them to be at least on the band.
9221 As we say, if they
are not in the church, it's very difficult to preach to them. So if they are on the band, then we at least
have a shot.
9222 Also, devices now
and in the future, iPods, MP3 players, don't have AM radio on them. They have FM radio on them, but not AM radio.
9223 So it puts us in a
better position I guess to be successful over time.
9224 I guess for all of
those reasons is why we believe FM, at least at this point of time, is better.
9225 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you for that fulsome
answer.
9226 Thank you, Madam
Chair.
9227 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I have a few questions and
I will just pick up on a question that Commissioner Cugini was asking and
Commissioner Molnar was asking, as well, and that is with respect to the impact
on the Corus news talk radio station.
9228 I was wondering,
before Commissioner Cugini started her question, what the advantage was to you
being on AM versus Corus.
9229 So having listened
now to what you have said, it seems that over time you might have a significant
advantage and indeed take more of a share of their market. We have only looked and we traditionally ask
for year two impact, but it looks to me like over time you could have a
considerable advantage.
9230 Is that correct?
9231 MR. SKI: You are talking about our impact on CHED?
9232 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
9233 MR. SKI: No. We
alluded to it earlier and I will have John maybe give you an idea of the
differences between a news talk station and maybe the type of station that we
are because they are totally different.
9234 In Toronto, for
instance, 680 News operates side‑by‑side with other news talk radio
stations in the market. I think there
are for now and they all operate within their own individual formats. They are still in the format so obviously we
haven't had an impact that would make them change those formats, because we are
different. It is a different type of
service. People listen to it in a
different way.
9235 Maybe John could
elaborate on that just a little bit, if you like.
9236 MR. HINNEN: Sure.
In Vancouver, another example CKNW, which is Corus' station there, does
very well. In fact, it is still the
number one station when it comes to audience share in that market. We compete against them and actually I think
we complement each other in many ways.
9237 When we launched
680, it was really designed to be everybody's second favourite radio
station. People would have their own
music station and they would come to us if they required some information, be
it traffic, weather, news, whatever it happens to have been. So we have always felt that we complemented
each other and we are much different.
9238 CKNW, CFRB and
certainly CHED here has long hours tuned.
We don't and it is because of the talk programming that they have. We have no talk programming except for the
fact that we constantly have news information on the air.
9239 So they are
totally different and I think that in many ways we complement all broadcasters,
be they talk or music based stations, and in many ways we see that we work with
all of them.
9240 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So the fact that you are on
FM and they are on AM is not any particular impact on Corus. I understand your comments about FM being the
future, especially with respect to new devices.
9241 MR. SKI: Right.
Certainly. And our audience tends
to be slightly younger, in some cases quite a bit younger than audiences to
news talk radio stations.
9242 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for all that.
9243 I was just
wondering, can you tell me in the Toronto and Vancouver markets, just picking
up on your comments and your opening remarks there, how many years it was before
you became at least break even, just in relation ‑‑ I see here
you're talking about year seven.
9244 So I'm wondering
what your actual experience was in those two markets.
9245 MR. SKI: John can probably give you those years.
9246 MR. HINNEN: In Toronto it was year five. In Vancouver it took us nine years, partially
because it is a slightly smaller market, but also because of the fact that
Corus actually launched an all news station against us and actually slowed us
down by a couple of years. It took us
nine years there.
9247 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Calgary, then, I understand
it's relatively new in Calgary. I think
you said two years.
9248 But are you on
track with what you had forecasted and when did you forecast a turnaround in
Calgary?
9249 MR. SKI: I'm not sure when we forecasted that. John may know. But we are on track in that particular
market, too.
9250 Again, it is a
slow build. As we said earlier, it does
take us some time. But when I looked at
the numbers, we developed our numbers for this particular application based on
our experience with all news in other markets.
9251 We know how the
business plan works given that experience that we have had and, quite frankly,
Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary all sort of looked like this. Toronto happened a little bit earlier than we
thought, but by and large they looked very much like this.
9252 We believe, I
think, that it could be five years, it could be six years for Calgary. That's the way it looks to us right now.
9253 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Again, is there competition
in Calgary? You don't consider it quite
competition, but is there a news talk format as well in Calgary?
9254 MR. SKI: Yes, there is.
9255 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
9256 In Vancouver is
your news station on FM?
9257 MR. SKI: No, it is not.
9258 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I'm just wondering, I think
it was Mr. Bedore maybe who talked about the CCD. I don't remember exactly who did the CCD
segment.
9259 So when you were
speaking about the Canadian Media Research Consortium, I understood you to say
in support of mentoring programs for young journalists, but you left out the
part about mid‑career scholarship for practising journalists, I thought.
9260 Was that your
intention?
9261 MR. BEDORE: No.
9262 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe I just missed it.
9263 MS WHEELER: No, it wasn't our intention.
9264 THE
CHAIRPERSON: All right. Thanks.
9265 MS WHEELER: The program would cover both.
9266 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Both? Okay.
I might have just missed it.
Thanks.
9267 I'm curious to
know how you assign 39 journalists in the seven days. I would just appreciate some explanation of
how that might work.
9268 MR. SKI: Certainly.
I will ask Karen and John to tell you how this works because it is
actually quite exciting.
9269 Karen...?
9270 MS PARSONS: Well...
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
9271 MS PARSONS: How long have you got?
9272 What happens with
this format is that you have very tight teams of people who work certain
shifts. So we have in the early morning
two anchor editors who come from the midnight until the 6 o'clock, 5:30‑6
o'clock period, and then the next shift is what we call the morning show; again
a team of an editor, who does the line‑up, two anchors and anywhere from
three to five reporters, including traffic reporters. We would have a meteorologist, a traffic
reporter. We have a traffic reporter in
the air, one of the ground as well, and then that same kind of complement flips
through the day basically.
9273 We also have audio
editors who pull in the feeds from different places, from CNN or ABC or BBC,
whatever, that kind of thing. We also
have them pulling from our stations right across the country. We share a similar computer station.
9274 So that is
basically how we would use up all of those people.
9275 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So at 3:00 in the morning
how many people what I find working as compared to 10 o'clock in the morning?
9276 MS PARSONS: You would have between ‑‑ I
would say on average three or four people staffing overnight.
9277 What I will say to
that, as well, is that we would have all of our staff on call 24 hours a day,
right. So I can pick up the phone or
they can pick up the phone and we can have people on the ground in any city
within half an hour, an hour.
9278 At 10 o'clock in
the morning of course the complement is a great deal larger. I would say at that point in time we have
between ‑‑ at least a dozen people in the newsroom and, you
know, whether it is the legislature or city hall or ‑‑
9279 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So these journalists aren't
all in the studio except for the legislature, are they? They are out on the road?
9280 Yes, they are
because you mentioned the ‑‑
9281 MS PARSONS: Definitely.
Definitely we put a lot of people out on the road.
9282 BE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I just want to make sure.
‑‑‑ Pause
9283 THE CHAIRPERSON: Your sales team, how many did you have a your
sales team?
9284 I'm just picking
up on the fact that you can't rely on the BBM measurements to attract
advertisers.
9285 MR. SKI: Right.
9286 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Did I understand that
correctly?
9287 MR. SKI: Yes.
Actually in our sales and promotion department we have approximately 7‑1/2
people.
9288 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So that is a lot of
pounding the ‑‑ cold call.
Well, you are using your contacts, I suppose, from your other stations.
9289 MR. SKI: Yes, in part.
But again, this is very different.
9290 It is a
developmental build in terms of we are not using ratings quite as much.
9291 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
9292 MR. SKI: And I should mention, too, that when there
are ratings ‑‑ and the station does get some ratings ‑‑
this particular type of format performs better than others because of the fact
of something we call a power ratio, which means that our revenue share tends to
perform better than the audience share, normally two to one for news talk ‑‑
well, all news stations in particular.
So there is that part of it.
9293 So we do get some
rating driven business.
9294 But the rest of
the business is really driven by ‑‑ it is really developmental
business, as Derek alluded to. I mean,
very little radio advertising is done by those who advertise in trade
magazines. We get a lot of that and it
is part of that business‑to‑business advertising.
9295 THE
CHAIRPERSON: What did you say there a
few seconds ago? It made me think that
your rates were higher for this format.
9296 You said about
your revenue was driven ‑‑
9297 MR. SKI: Oh, the power ratio.
9298 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
9299 MR. SKI: No. We
would like them to be, but no.
9300 What it means is
that what we are able to do is if somebody is buying based on ratings, they
will tend to buy our station, still not to the same degree they buy others for
all the reasons that Derek outlined earlier.
But stations tend to perform a little bit better because of the type of
audience that this type of format delivers.
9301 So whereas on a
music station it might be one‑to‑one ratings versus audience share,
at the station it's better than that.
9302 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So do your sales people
sell more than ‑‑ in this market, for example, well, I doubt
they would sell all three stations. But
would they sell your other stations at the same time, your sales, or is it
completely independent, your sales force?
9303 MR. SKI: It is independent, as it is with most of our
stations.
9304 Derek again maybe
can speak to that as it relates to Toronto market, for instance, where we have
four separate sales teams. It's a
different type of sale.
9305 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.
9306 Yes...?
9307 MR. BERGHUIS: Yes, in Toronto we operate a sports station,
an all news station, an Adult Contemporary station and a Rock station, four
different sales departments. Our plan
right now, in Calgary we have four stations as well, two music stations, each
of which has its own sales department and because of the size of market right
now in Calgary we have one sales department selling both the sports and the
news station.
9308 I think the way we
would launch here, because of the size of market would be with a single
team. The second phase, which would be
very, very quick, would be to hire all news specialists to go out to call on
really business‑to‑business, financial and some of the categories
we talked about, but ultimately all news is such a different sell from music
radio that we would have a separate sales force.
9309 I don't think that
would be day one, but that would be what we would try to evolve to. That is what we have done in our other
markets.
9310 THE
CHAIRPERSON: If I was an advertiser in
Toronto, would you offer me a discount if I went on more than one station?
9311 MR. BERGHUIS: That is our custom plan. We have a combo package and we do offer
discounts based on usage of multiple stations.
9312 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
9313 MR. SKI: It's not very high.
9314 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, I will keep that in
mind.
9315 Commissioner
Molnar...?
9316 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Thank you. I just have one more question.
9317 It twigged me as
the discussion went on about devices and how, you know, not all devices work on
AM, and it reminded me of what you said earlier on as to why you are getting
into the news broadcasting and that is for the rich content that it creates
that you can use over multiple platforms.
So that is very exciting.
9318 The one question I
had is whether or not that content will be available on a proprietary basis
over Rogers distribution platforms or will this be technology agnostic?
9319 MR. SKI: Let me have John explain what we do now in
terms of type of content that we use or provide on multi‑platforms.
9320 MR. HINNEN: We really think that certainly in the case of
the Internet it is a huge part of our platform in terms of making sure that we
get information to people wherever they want it and whenever they want it.
9321 Quite frankly to
your point, we just put various things on our websites and so that is open to
the public at large and it is not specific to Rogers or anything else. But we do think it is important to provide
people alternative opportunities to listen to information.
9322 If you take, for
example, the traffic reports that we do on our radio stations, we now have it
set up that you can listen to the latest traffic report online. So if for some reason you are in your office
and you have no access to radio, you can listen to it without having to stream. You can certainly stream as well if that is
what you wish to do, but the latest traffic report is separated out.
9323 If, for instance,
you happen to be somewhere and you can't reach a radio or for some reason you
can't reach some other kind of device, we also have it set up now that you can
actually listen to the latest traffic report via SMS text messaging.
9324 So that if you
type in "traffic" after you punch in 680, 680, we actually send you
the latest audio version of the traffic report that was available. So it gives people more opportunity to listen
to a traffic report.
9325 We send
information to various many places. We
have RSS feeds of our local content that we actually know have ‑‑
actually we send to various billboards around the city of Toronto. We also, for instance, provide it to Pizza
Pizza, which is a large chain of restaurants.
They have a number of TV screens in many of their restaurants now, and
as part of their offering they have information about the store, but they also
now have a news feed of our local news information that we provide them.
9326 So we're trying to
make sure that we keep in touch with our audience no matter wherever they might
be.
9327 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Thank you.
9328 So if we look, for
example, at the wireless platform, mobility platform, that would be available
over all technologies?
9329 MR. SKI: Yes, it would. If you are asking would it be supplied
to ‑‑
9330 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: TELUS as well as ‑‑
9331 MR. SKI: Yes.
9332 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Yes.
9333 MR. SKI: Yes.
9334 COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Okay, thank you.
9335 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
9336 Counsel...?
9337 MS LEMOUX: I have one question of clarification with
respect to over and about CCDs.
9338 So in section
8.1(a) of your application form you indicate that you plan to exceed the basic
contributions by allocating an additional $214,285 a year to CCD.
9339 However, in
section 7.1 of your financial projections under the caption CCD you indicate a
yearly contribution of $214,000. There
is a difference of $285 per year and since it is captured by a condition of
licence, we need to have the exact number per year.
9340 MR. SKI: We could refile that with you, if you like.
9341 MS LEMOUX: Okay.
Actually I have another request for you guys.
9342 With respect to
all the requested undertakings, can you file them by Thursday, end of day
Thursday?
9343 MS WHEELER: Yes.
9344 MS LEMOUX: Thank you.
9345 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, counsel.
9346 Mr. Ski, this is
your two minutes.
9347 MR. SKI: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
9348 I think you can
tell, I hope, by the excitement from our team here today that we are pretty
passionate about the all news format at Rogers and we are anxious to bring our
brand of all news to Edmonton.
9349 As I mentioned
earlier, I think, it is part of the DNA and it has been for 15 years when
Rogers was the architect of Canada's first all news station.
9350 We loved the
challenges, I guess, that no one else wants to take on.
9351 If I could, I
would like to just review three key factors:
one, the quality of our application; two, diversity of news voices in
the market; and three, the competitive state of the radio market and the level
of market impact.
9352 I will do that
briefly, because I think we have covered most of those items today.
9353 First, the quality
of our application.
9354 We will be 100 per
cent local. Our programs will be
entirely spoken word 126 hours per week, 168 if you take the full 24
hours. We will employ 39 new broadcast
journalists. We will contribute tangible
benefits of $1.5 million above the basic CCD commitment. We will make the most effective use of the
102.3 frequency. We will connect with
our audience through multiple touch points on multiple platforms and create a
truly integrated communications experience.
9355 Second, diversity
of news voices.
9356 We will be the
only 24‑hour a day, seven day a week news and information service in
Edmonton, the only one in a market that has been dominated by one editorial
voice for a long time. We are so
determined to succeed in this format that we applied for a specialty licence to
give you confidence in our commitment.
But beyond this, you only need to look at our experience and our
determination in the other markets in which we program all news stations to
understand that commitment.
9357 Third, the
competitive state of the market and the level of market impact.
9358 Edmonton is
booming, EBITDA is high, revenues are increasing faster than any other Canadian
market and our format, all news, will have the least effect of the
incumbents. In fact, we will grow the
market revenue probably more than any other format because we are so different.
9359 As I said at the
opening, we are passionate about the format and we have been recognized as
world leaders in its development. But
beyond our list of commitments, the major benefit that we are proposing in the
establishment of a radio service like this is that we know the citizens of
radio will come to rely on it and it will become an indispensable part of their
lives.
9360 Thank you very
much. We appreciate your attention and
questions today.
9361 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Ski and your
team.
9362 We are going break
now for 15 minutes, so we will be back about 20 minutes to 3:00.
9363 Thank you.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing
at 1420 / Suspension à 1420
‑‑‑ Upon resuming
at 1440 / Reprise à 1440
9364 THE
SECRETARY: For the record, Black Gold
Broadcasting Inc., on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, has filed in
response to undertakings the Leduc County Radio Survey raw data. This data has been added to the public record
and copies are available in the public examination room.
9365 We will now
proceed with Item 21, which is an application by John Charles Yerxa on behalf
of a corporation to be incorporated for a licence to operate an English‑language
FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Edmonton.
9366 The new station
would operate on frequency 107.1 MHz, Channel 296C‑1, with an effective
radiated power of 40,000 watts, non‑directional antenna, antenna height
of 272 metres.
9367 Appearing for the
applicant is John Yerxa.
9368 Please introduce
your colleagues and you will then have 20 minutes to make a presentation.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
9369 MR. J. YERXA: Madam Chair, Commissioners and staff, my name
is John Yerxa. I was born and raised in
the Edmonton area and I have spent all my life, the past 31 years, involved in
the radio business. My father, Hal, was
a pioneer in Canadian radio and inducted into the CAB Broadcast Hall of Fame.
9370 In 1954 he started
CFCW in Camrose, which, as its call letters indicate, was Canada's first
Country and Western formatted station.
9371 In 1977, at the
age of 18, I began my broadcast career as an on‑air announcer CFCW. Over the next decade, while based in
Edmonton, I gained experience in almost every aspect of radio broadcasting,
moving from on‑air announcing to commercial writing, promotion,
programming, sales and eventually management.
9372 In 1986, while
serving as the Operations Manager of the Edmonton stations, I started an
association with pollster Angus Reid to launch the Pulse Surveys dealing with
news and public affairs issues in northern Alberta. Soon after that I establish my own research
division to conduct music testing and radio programming surveys, as well as
local advertiser studies.
9373 Unfortunately, as
a result of my father's ill health, the stations I was associated with were
sold to Newcap Broadcasting Limited in 1989.
However, I quickly rebranded the Pulse Surveys, renamed them the Yerxa
Polls, and affiliated them with The Sun newspaper chain across Alberta. I also began to introduce the services of
John Yerxa research to radio broadcasters nationally.
9374 I have now
consulted radio stations in small, medium and large markets across Canada for
almost 20 years. This experience,
combined with my ongoing work in this radio market, has prepared me well for an
ownership and management role in Edmonton.
9375 Next to me, on my
left, is my oldest son Zachary, who at 15 years of age was possibly the
youngest major market DJ working in Canadian radio when he began at Edmonton's
Power 92 in 2001.
9376 Zach eventually
became Power 92's Assistant Music Director and a member of its top‑rated
morning team. Later he was hired by CHUM
as The Bounce FM's first Music Director and evening host here in Edmonton.
9377 Since leaving The
Bounce, Zach has established himself as a well‑known member within the
local Edmonton music scene, especially after his band, The Casanova Playboys,
achieved Band of the Month status on SONiC‑FM. Zach is the primary architect of the music
format that is before you today.
9378 Incidentally,
today is Zach's 23rd birthday and this is his birthday present.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
9379 MR. J. YERXA: Next to Zach, on his immediate left, is my
second son Barron.
9380 While working part‑time
for Corus in Edmonton, Baron provided assistance to its programming department
in preparation for the successful launch of the Joe format. He is trained in computer network
administration and currently oversees the computer operations of John Yerxa
research.
9381 Barron has also
contributed to the development of our website New107FM.com.
9382 Next to Barron, on
his immediate left, is my third son Hunter.
9383 Hunter is
presently majoring in economics at the University of Alberta and is also an
infantryman in the Loyal Edmonton Regiment, a Canadian Army Reserve Unit based
in Edmonton. Hunter was recently awarded
an Edmonton youth leadership award by Mike Lake, the Member of Parliament for
Edmonton‑Mill Woods.
9384 He too has
experience in radio, serving as a control room operator for The Bounce. Hunter created and actively manages NEW‑FM's
Facebook page, which now has over 1350 online my members.
9385 On my immediate
right is Sherri Pierce.
9386 Sherri has 17
years of radio sales experience and was most recently Director of Sales for all
of the Corus stations in Vancouver. She
is my sales partner and has helped me immensely in gathering advertiser
feedback for this proposal.
9387 Behind Sherri, to
my far right, is my cousin, Linda Brain.
9388 For over 15 years
Linda served as the administrative head of all of the Newcap stations here in
Edmonton. She was also in charge of
implementing Newcap's cultural diversity and employment equity policies. Linda's input regarding our overall staffing
and administration has been invaluable and she will serve as NEW‑FM's
Operations Manager.
9389 Next to Linda, on
her left, is Faaiza Ramji.
9390 Faaiza previously
handled promotions at The Bounce and also helped to oversee CHUM's CCD
initiatives here in Edmonton. Faaiza has
greatly assisted me in crafting our approach to Canadian Content Development in
this application.
9391 To Faaiza's left
is Jordan Schroder.
9392 Jordan currently
produces and distributes a weekly podcast covering emerging local talent and
the music scene, as well as arts and current events here in the City of
Champions. Jordan's primary
contributions have been in the area of spoken word and interactive programming. He will be cochairing a Digital Youth Council
with my son Hunter and will serve as NEW‑FM's fulltime New‑Media
Administrator.
9393 To Jordan's left
is Marvin Haugen.
9394 Marvin started
with my father back in 1963 as the accountant for CFCW. He currently assists me as the in‑house
accountant for John Yerxa Research and he has helped me to structure my
business plan.
9395 Finally, next to
Marvin, on his left, is my daughter Signe Yerxa.
9396 Signe is just
finishing her Grade 12 year and is a valuable member of our NEW‑FM street
team. Signe also helps me to organize
and look after her three brothers.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
9397 MR. J. YERXA: I am very proud to appear before you today as
an applicant for a NEW‑FM radio licence in Edmonton, a community where I
have spent the majority of my life and my broadcast career. The opportunity to start a NEW‑FM in my
hometown with my three sons and daughter by my side is a dream that I am
finally realizing after many years.
9398 Approximately 18
months ago I began gathering and reviewing local market information in
anticipation of achieving this goal.
Last summer, my commitment strengthened when I informed key broadcast
clients that I would be submitting an Edmonton application. Then, last October, once my qualitative
research phase was finished, I commissioned a local audience survey to verify
the best new FM format opportunity for this market.
9399 My proposal is for
a new FM station that will specifically serve Edmonton's teen and young adult
population. That is where the largest
unserved hole presently exists in this market.
That is where a new FM station would have the least negative impact on
existing commercial competitors and that is where we must develop a more
compelling radio service if our goal is to repatriate younger listeners and
build an Edmonton radio listening audience for the future.
9400 Let's quickly
review the market information that supports this proposal.
9401 MS BRAIN: Our proposal for a new FM station to
specifically serve Edmonton's teen and young adult population is built on three
critical factors: local demographics, local BBM survey data and local audience
research.
9402 Here are the
facts.
9403 In Edmonton 15‑to‑24
year olds now account for a higher proportion of the total population than any
other large CMA in Canada. No other
large CMA, apart from Calgary, has a higher percentage of 15‑to‑34
year olds in its overall population.
9404 As one of Canada's
major educational centers, Edmonton now welcomes at least 106,000 fulltime
students to its various post secondary institutions. Since a high number of these students are
nonresidents, the size of Edmonton's under‑35 population is even more
substantial.
9405 Only three of 16
commercial stations ‑‑ The Bounce, SONiC and The Bear ‑‑
are currently relevant to Edmonton's under‑35 population. Both SONiC and The Bear play Rock music and
skew male. The Bounce is a Top 40
station skewing female.
9406 In the kit
accompanying your notes are four demographic positioning charts from Canadian
Broadcast Sales covering the last four BBM surveys conducted in Edmonton. Taken together, they dramatically illustrate
that there is room for an Edmonton radio station targeting listeners under 35
years of age skewing slightly female or targeting an even percentage of younger
males and females.
9407 On this basis
alone we believe the CRTC should license a new commercial FM station in
Edmonton, adding diversity and choice to younger residents.
9408 MR. H. YERXA: Almost 18 years ago we began a series of
discussions with Edmontonians of all ages about their attitudes toward the local
radio market and their ideas for a new FM music format. From these focus groups and one‑on‑one
interviews came the realization that many people would be attracted to a
variety music format.
9409 For example, most
35‑to‑54 year olds indicated they would listen to a new format
offering a variety of artists ranging from Adult Contemporary to a Adult
Alternative. On the other hand, many
teens and young adults demanded a greater variety of new music from each of the
following genres: Rock, Hip‑Hop, Dance and Pop.
9410 They claim that in
terms of airplay, all these styles were compatible. In other words, they did not see Rock and Hip‑Hop
as opposites. Many younger women said
they like Rock as well as Pop and a lot of them felt there should be more Dance
music on the radio.
9411 MR. B. YERXA: Once our qualitative research phase was
complete, a survey of 450 local area residents 13‑plus years of age was
conducted by Banister Research. The
sample included both radio and non‑radio listeners. Bannister tested two different variety
formats, one targeted at under 35 residents, younger variety, and one targeted
at over 35 residents, older variety.
9412 We knew that
neither of these formats existed locally, yet suspected that each held some
potential for success. In the end, both
ranked almost neck and neck in terms of core support and lack of availability.
9413 However, younger
variety listeners consistently rated higher in their dissatisfaction with the
local market and their desire for an alternative to the existing commercial
stations.
9414 Further analysis
revealed the younger variety format would also bring a much higher percentage
of local residents back to commercial radios from iPods, the Internet and other
music sources. This research confirms there
is room in Edmonton for a younger variety format whose core target audience
would be 15‑to‑29 years of age, leaning slightly female.
9415 We estimate such a
station would debut at a four share, yet no more than 14 per cent of its
overall share would be derived from any commercial station and approximately
one‑third of its overall share would be successfully repatriated to local
commercial radio.
9416 MR. Z. YERXA: The younger variety format will offer a much
larger selection of new music than any of the existing commercial stations in
Edmonton. That is why we have chosen the
name NEW‑FM. 80 per cent of our
weekly selections will have been released within the past six months and 20 per
cent of our weekly playlist will be comprised of new and emerging Canadian talent. No song will repeat more than twice per day
and we plan on 740 distinct songs per week.
9417 NEW‑FM's
breakout by genre will be 20 per cent New Rock, 25 per cent Hip‑Hop,
30 per cent Dance and 25 per cent Alternative Pop. We will not play more than 20 per cent Rock
because SONiC and The Bear already serve under 30 listeners with Rock
music. Therefore, what little Rock we do
play will focus on new and emerging talent that is not getting adequate airplay
on either of those stations.
9418 The Bounce is a
chart driven Top 40 service referring to itself as Edmonton's number one hit
music station. However, NEW‑FM
will focus on uncharted Hip‑Hop, Dance and Pop selections that The Bounce
ignores.
9419 For example, there
are currently dozens of remixes as well as scores of songs achieving top status
in the Dance community that are not receiving any airplay on The Bounce. Last Friday Mediabase personnel analyzed over
100 songs on our website playlist and found no greater than 11 per cent overlap
on any of the local commercial stations.
Mediabase also reported that at least 30 per cent of our entire playlist
is not receiving any airplay on its monitored stations in Canada and the U.S.
9420 We encourage you
to visit our website, new107fm.com to hear a music mix that is significantly
different from what is being offered on any of Edmonton's commercial
stations. Once there, you will be
introduced to various local ethnic and aboriginal artists like War Party,
Etiket(ph), Touch and Nato and Red Nation, who have received little if any
commercial radio exposure in Edmonton.
9421 You will also see
that over 800 people have signed our petition and I encourage you to read their
comments attesting to the passion and excitement that now exists for this new
music format.
9422 You might also
wish to visit our Facebook group, which in only two months has gained over 1350
members.
9423 Members of the
Commission, younger Edmontonians are not going to stop using MP3 players or
surfing the Internet because of NEW‑FM, but by offering the youth of this
market a greater variety of new, uncharted music, especially from undiscovered
Canadian artists, we will start to draw more of them back to commercial radio.
9424 MR. SCHRODER: NEW‑FM will represent a new and
completely independent news voice in our community. This responsibility, if addressed properly,
will further differentiate it from other radio stations and music sources. After all, an iPod cannot deliver up‑to‑the‑minute
local information and local reflection.
9425 Therefore, NEW‑FM
will have a fully functional news department with three fulltime staff. They will spearhead our mandate to deliver
over 10‑1/2 news and spoken word programming each week aimed directly at
Edmonton's 15‑to‑29 age demographic.
9426 But in order to
repatriate younger Edmontonians to commercial radio and keep them listening,
here is what we must do in terms of our news and spoken word programming.
9427 Number one, we
must be concise.
9428 Younger
Edmontonians have told us that their primary motivation for listening to radio
is to hear and discover new music.
Therefore, for those who appreciate some news information, the
interruptions must be short and fast paced.
9429 Number two, we
must be relevant.
9430 Our target
listeners primarily want information that reflects their interests and
concerns. That means more emphasis on
technology, education, jobs, the Internet, cultural diversity and various other
social issues.
9431 It also means
writing a youth slant into as many stories as possible through a combination of
writing style and our news staff's stability to access proper feedback from our
target audience. For example, we will
feature listener opinions off our website while also presenting audio clips
from Newsline, our automated phone service that will specifically be dedicated
to youth comment. This in turn will
encourage even more feedback.
9432 Number three, we
must be local.
9433 Local means more
emphasis on high school and collegiate sports, along with campus news. It means presenting local items that address
the rising cost of education, the lack of affordable housing, the necessary
expansion of our city's light rail transit system and the impact that drug
abuse and obesity are having on our youth today.
9434 Our goal will be
to present local stories on NEW‑FM that you won't hear on other
stations. Our goal will be to offer news
and information content that is 90 per cent local.
9435 MS RAMJI: NEW‑FM cannot draw listeners back to
commercial radio through voice tracking and automation. If our mandate is to reintroduce the Internet
generation to local radio, then we must personally engage our target listeners
at all hours, day and night. For this
reason NEW‑FM will be live 24/7.
9436 The great thing
about today's technology is that it can also allow our on‑air staff to be
on the street at all times. Therefore,
NEW‑FM will incorporate mobility in as many dayparts as possible,
creating word‑of‑mouth excitement throughout the Edmonton area.
9437 Through our
various online links, dozens of young Edmontonians and have already requested
membership on our street team. Some even
showed up recently to help us promote NEW‑FM at Hip‑Hop in the Park
and the recent Kanye West concert. We
know that once licensed, NEW‑FM will be able to unleash a stable of youth
at various events throughout the Edmonton area.
9438 MR. H. YERXA: The rapid growth of our Facebook community
clearly suggests that NEW‑FM will be a social network as much as it will
be a radio station. Therefore, once
licensed, our website will become a hive of activity. Besides picking up our stream, entering
station contests and downloading podcasts, our listeners will be able to
participate in music surveys and web polls, as well as rate and comment on
various news stories. Their feedback
will in turn influence the future content of our music and information
programming.
9439 NEW‑FM's
message board will allow them to post upcoming events, personal thoughts and
links to other websites. They will also
use our website as a resource tool to discover new music and learn more about
new and emerging Canadian artists, and within the emerging artist section of
our website aspiring musicians can register and upload their music directly
onto our server.
9440 All of our
announcers will have a dedicated Facebook page and all of them will appear
online while they are conducting their on‑air shifts. Our audience will also be able to instantly
message each jock via the Internet or on their cell phones, and anyone will be
able to text a specific station code to immediately receive live song title and
artist information.
9441 In anticipation of
this high degree of activity, Jordan and I will cochair a local Digital Youth
Council that will meet quarterly to keep NEW‑FM abreast of the latest
developments and interactivity and ensure that members of our target audience
can communicate face‑to‑face with NEW‑FM personnel on a
regular basis.
9442 MS PIERCE: In order to draw and keep Edmonton youth, NEW‑FM
must offer five things.
9443 One, a steady diet
of new, uncharted music from the Rock, Hip‑Hop, Dance and Alternative Pop
genres.
9444 Two, high exposure
of new and emerging Canadian talent.
9445 Three, news and
information that specifically reflects the interesting concerns of younger
Edmontonians.
9446 Four, relatable on‑air
hosts who are available to engage them 24/7.
9447 Five, a social
online platform enabling them to interact with both NEW‑FM and their
peers.
9448 Once we meet these
objectives, NEW‑FM will own and an important slice of the 12‑to‑34
market in the city.
9449 But what about its
financial viability? Here are two facts
that are now changing the attitudes of advertisers and media buyers about the
teen and young adult market.
9450 Today's youth are
the most affluent generation of young people ever. Almost one‑third of them now work and
the latest consumer research indicates youth spending in Canada reached $50
billion in 2006.
9451 Canadian families
with teens now spent over $100 billion on them, making this market incredibly
influential on national household purchasing habits.
9452 Facts like these
explain the numerous support letters we have received from potential clients
and they also underline the positive feedback we have recently gathered from
advertisers who claim they would strongly consider buying NEW‑FM.
9453 Why are they so
enthused? Because they all agree that
commercial radio is now failing seriously in its ability to deliver the
influential teen and young adult market to their community.
9454 MR. J. YERXA: Madam Chair, Commissioners and staff, even
though the feedback we have gathered from local advertisers and media buyers is
optimistic, our business plan is conservative.
NEW‑FM will not be cash flow or PBIT positive until year four, nor
profitable until your five. But I have
the financial resources to weather any unexpected shortfall and if there is
ever a need for additional funding, I have solid backing from either ATB
Financial or other members of my family.
9455 I also wish to
stress that our business plan will have no material impact on any of the
incumbents.
9456 In year two, the
$672,000 that we will take from commercial radio will represent less than 1 per
cent of the $89.6 million we have estimated in total market revenue.
9457 NEW‑FM will
be complementary to all of them and, again, is based on a solid foundation of
demographic needs, BBM ratings data and both qualitative and quantitative
research.
9458 Having said that,
I want to close this presentation by telling you why this application
represents the best choice for the use of the 107.1 frequency in Edmonton.
9459 We will create
musical diversity in this market by providing a format that is unique to the
under 35 demographic and the local FM band.
In doing so, we will further the objectives of the Broadcasting Act by
repatriating a generation of Canadians to radio who are not using the medium
because it is not offering the programming they want to hear.
9460 We will also
support the objectives of the Act by embracing the challenges brought on by the
Internet and new media.
9461 In addition to a
40 per cent Cancon commitment, we will commit that 20 per cent of our weekly
playlist is comprised of new and emerging Canadian artists and we will accept
that as a condition of licence regardless of future market conditions.
9462 We will make a
significant contribution to CCD, with expenditures of $2.1 million. This amount is impressive for a company of
our size and will significantly benefit its recipients.
9463 We will bring a
new youthful editorial news voice to the Edmonton region. We will commit to be live 24/7. We will reflect our community's cultural
diversity in our hiring practices, in our spoken word and in terms of airplay. Perhaps most important of all, we will bring
local and independent ownership back to Edmonton, thereby increasing ownership
diversity in this market.
9464 I am 100 per cent
independent, 100 per cent local, and I will hold full control of the
licence right here in Edmonton.
9465 Everyone knows the
radio industry has become extremely consolidated and that the Commission
appreciates independent applicants participating in the hearing process, but
here is what truly differentiates this application for many others. Even though I have an intimate knowledge of
many markets across this country, I have never appeared before you as an
applicant in any of those markets. That
is because Edmonton is where my life is, has been and will continue to be.
9466 Having spent 31
years in this radio market, I am now putting it on the line this one time to
pursue a dream in the community where my father raised me and where I have now,
as a single father, raised my own children.
For over 60 years and through three generations the Yerxas have been
involved with radio in this city and now, having just turned 49 years of age, I
look forward to beginning a new and exciting chapter in the Canadian
broadcasting system with my children by my side.
9467 Therefore, I
respectfully ask you for this opportunity in my hometown.
9468 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Yerxa. And happy birthday to
your son. We hope you enjoy the day.
9469 MR. Z. YERXA: I will.
9470 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Zucchini ‑‑
Zucchini.
9471 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Excuse me?
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
9472 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, brother. Should I go home now?
9473 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Yes.
9474 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cugini will
lead the questions.
9475 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: I knew that side plate of
zucchini was a bad mistake at lunch.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank you, Madam Chair, and welcome to all of
you.
9476 I have to say,
though, I wish I had my two nieces sitting by my side right now. So, Julia and Alicia, if you are listening,
send me an e‑mail.
9477 I'm going to begin
with your choice of format. You have of
course detailed for us further that New Rock, Hip‑Hop, Dance and
Alternative Pop. Back in my day you were
either a Rock person or a Disco person.
So tell me, what do these formats all have in common that they all
belong on one radio station?
9478 I know you said
that your survey said they are compatible, but I need you to expand a little
bit more on that and why you think that this kind of radio station will serve
the taste of Edmontonian's youth.
9479 MR. Z. YERXA: Okay.
Well, first of all, when we surveyed most of the teens ‑‑
actually, I'm sorry all of the teens and young adults ‑‑ we
asked them to cite examples of their favourite music, and it always fell into
these four categories, which were Rock, Hip‑Hop, Dance and Pop. And even though these music styles may be
somewhat different from each other, they all are considered to be compatible in
terms of airplay by the majority of the listeners.
9480 But I think one of
the most compelling attributes for the iPod, and one of the reasons that most
of my friends, you know, end up surfing the Internet looking for new music is
because I think they really want the choice to be able to hear all different
types of music.
9481 I think nowadays,
especially with cultural diversity and everybody kind of doing their own thing,
you don't want to put yourself in a corner by saying I only listen to Rock, I
only listen to Rap. This is reflected
when you go to nightclubs. They play
everything. This is reflected in iPod
mix; there is everything on an iPod.
9482 I know for us, we
have a massive library of music at home and most of our ‑‑
9483 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: That doesn't come as a surprise
to me, given your family's history.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
9484 MR. Z. YERXA: I know most of my friends show up and they're
like oh my God, yeah, put that on, put that on, put that on. Every single genre is definitely respected
and is something that people want to hear.
9485 I think for us,
NEW‑FM's main thing that I want to concentrate on, especially at the
beginning, is Dance music because there is a major hole for Dance music in
Edmonton.
9486 As far as
Rock ‑‑ hold on, I can break it down for you a little bit.
9487 MR. J. YERXA: Zach, just ‑‑
9488 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: That's okay. Go ahead.
Go ahead. It's youthful
enthusiasm.
9489 MR. J. YERXA: Yes.
Yes, it's like herding cats.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
9490 MR. Z. YERXA: Thanks.
I'm just really passionate. This
is what I will say though. Hold on before I give it to you ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
9491 MR. Z YERXA: I honestly believe from the bottom of my
heart that this format complements the lifestyle of our target, so that is why
the playlist looks like it does, that's why the website looks like it
does. And all the feedback I have
received has been extremely positive.
9492 MR. J. YERXA: I just want to add that one of the most
enlightening moments for me, when we did our qualitative talking focus groups,
mall intercepts one‑on‑one, was this whole concept for someone of
my generation ‑‑ I mean, I'm not that old, but still, this
whole concept of mash‑ups and the idea that they just want to mix it all
together and they want to kind of have control over that.
9493 So consequently,
you know, the idea that these styles are all compatible was ‑‑
it was a revelation to me and of course this is what we have investigated now
for the past couple of years.
9494 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Now, in your application ‑‑
and you repeated it today ‑‑ you said that a large percentage
of what you are planning on playing on this radio station isn't current being played
in the Edmonton market.
9495 MR. Z. YERXA: Right.
9496 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Why do you think that is? Why do you think the radio stations are
staying away from this?
9497 MR. Z. YERXA: I think because ‑‑ this is
from my experience as a Music Director at a Top 40 station.
9498 I think that radio
has been kind of under these traditional formats for so long that they
just ‑‑ they don't want to stray from what, you know, what
they have kind of followed for quite a long time. I think the problem with that is that there
is so much music nowadays, especially because of the Internet, that is amazing,
that people listen to on their iPods and that they go search out and find for
themselves, that just doesn't get the opportunity to be on the air because they
don't have a major label behind them, number one.
9499 Number two, I
think it turns ‑‑ a lot of programmers are a little bit afraid
to go into uncharted waters. They really
want to stick to Pop and what works.
9500 I know personally
that back when Hip‑Hop was kind of making its debut and getting onto the
airwaves, a lot of programmers were like oh my God, should we play this in the
daytime? You know what I mean? They were a little bit worried about it.
9501 The truth is that
people my age, they don't worry, you know what I mean? They're not worried if it's going to offend
them or if it's a little bit too much.
9502 You know, people
want to go out and discover new music, and I think that's why this format will
be successful in that area.
9503 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Because you did mention daytime,
is it safe to assume that the genres of music from which you will be drawing
your content will be played throughout the broadcast day?
9504 MR. Z. YERXA: Yes.
9505 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Is it definitely dayparted?
9506 MR. Z. YERXA: I mean, the daytime stuff will be a little
bit more focused on Dance and the Alternative Pop aspect, whereas in the
evening we will go a little bit more Hip‑Hop and a little bit more Rock,
just so we are not so abrasive during the day while not depriving the younger
listeners during the night of all the new content that they should be hearing.
9507 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: You have set yourselves up for a
great challenge. I mean, your own
research says that 19 per cent of your listeners will be those who do not
listen to any local radio stations and another 13 per cent will be made up of
those who listen to non commercial and/or out of market radio services.
9508 You did go through
quite a bit of explanation in your oral presentation. But especially those who go to non commercial
or out of market radio services for the Internet to get their music, it is also
because they like to be able to draw their music from a variety of sources as
opposed to having one radio station, one programmer therefore telling them what
they should listen to.
9509 How are you going
to change that attitude?
9510 MR. Z. YERXA: Well, I think for us, one of the great things
about this radio station is if you look at our playlist it has come from a
massive variety of sources. I mean,
blogs are a very big thing on the Internet.
There is obviously peer‑to‑peer filesharing.
9511 I think the local
aspect of this radio station, which is where ‑‑ our music
department isn't saying yes, drop us off your CDs, we will listen to them and
we will let you know. We are actively
pursuing these artists and saying we want to play you.
9512 There is enough
room on our radio station. We are not a
small, narrow format. We can support all
these genres; we can support all these artists.
9513 I think the great
thing about the station is that it will really be ‑‑ what I
really want it to be is a source for young people where they are coming to us
because they trust us to give them the best new music.
9514 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Let's talk about emerging
artists for just a second because as part of your spoken word, you are planning
an hour and 10 minutes to Emerging Artists Spotlight.
9515 What efforts will
you make to reach out to emerging artists other than this one hour and 10 minutes
of air time?
9516 MR. J. YERXA: All right.
We have the Emerging Artists Spotlight that run essentially every couple
of hours, one minute every couple of hours, an hour and 10 minutes, as you said.
9517 Beyond that we
will promote them on air as much as we possibly can.
9518 We will have an
artist of the week that we will feature on our website. We will have profiles and links on the
website within the archive section for every one of our emerging artists that
we can put on there. We will offer
podcasts.
9519 We will
offer ‑‑ now, you are talking about promotion of existing or
what will we do generally to just go after emerging artists?
9520 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Both.
9521 MR. J. YERXA: The key is to have a link on our website
where they can register and they can upload their music directly to our
server. That is very important.
9522 Jordan, do you
want to add anything? You don't have to.
9523 All right.
9524 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Mr. Yerxa Sr., you said in your
closing remarks that you will commit 20 per cent of your weekly playlist. Is that 20 per cent of 40 per cent or 20 per
cent of the entire playlist?
9525 MR. J. YERXA: Half of our Cancon ‑‑
9526 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Okay.
9527 MR. J. YERXA:
‑‑ will be committed to new and emerging artists regardless
of any changes in this market.
9528 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Okay.
9529 Now, you know that
there are strong incumbents in the market.
You have CHBN and it has a CHR format, CHDI and its Modern Rock
format. These two in particular are
targeting the same target demo, or maybe you don't see it that way.
9530 So I'm going to
ask you to comment on whether or not you do think they are targeting the same
demographic group that you are, or not.
9531 MR. J. YERXA: Well, they are within the same demographic
sphere, I guess we will call it or area, but the difference is that
fundamentally SONiC is a Modern Rock male skewing radio station. SONiC is a Top 40 very narrow charted female
station ‑‑
9532 MR. Z. YERXA: The Bounce.
9533 MR. J. YERXA: I'm sorry. Thank you, Zach.
9534 The Bounce is Top
40 skewing female, and we anticipate kind of fitting in the middle, maybe
skewing a little more female and offering just a massive variety of music.
9535 What we found is,
you know, how are we going to bring them back from iPods? The one thing an iPod can't give them, even
in terms of music, is new music. 80 per
cent I think of our music is current, within the last six months. The balance will probably fall in between
about six and 24 months.
9536 So this massive
variety of new music ‑‑ hence the name NEW‑FM ‑‑
is going to clearly differentiate us from the existing players in the market.
9537 MR. Z. YERXA: I think another thing that is really good
about our playlist is that with most ‑‑ well, I would say with
all formats, like whether it is Top 40 or Modern Rock, they are being serviced
music from record labels and the have to wait to get that single, that single
that is being pushed by the rep.
Therefore, they will add that that week if that is what the record label
has as a priority.
9538 With us, anything
that is leaked, like right off the Internet, if it is an artist like Kanye West
who just had a show here, if he releases an album track or brand‑new
mixed tape track that everybody wants to hear and is downloading, why shouldn't
the radio be playing that? Why shouldn't
we be turning our listeners on and saying listen, Kayne West has leaked a brand
new single, here it is for you right now on the air. And if you would like, you can go to our
website, you can stream it there and we will show you how we get our new music
so that we can help you as a source in that way.
9539 MR. J. YERXA: Commissioner Cugini, I just want Jordan
Schroder to add something.
9540 MR. SCHRODER: Commissioners, I just wanted to speak to the
repatriation of the generation that is currently listening to iPods and going
to MySpace and other sites primarily to discover new music.
9541 That is a small
percentage of the demographic who are going out of their way to discover these
places, digging through various websites.
There is no way to prove this quantitatively, but how many more people
in that demographic would like to have a convenient source to discover that,
that maybe wouldn't go out of their way but would still like to hear that same
music?
9542 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: I believe you are the
applicant ‑‑ as the Chair said earlier, we do have a number of
you here before us, but I believe you are the applicant that isn't projecting
any growth in share of audience from years three to seven. I think you start at four and you end at six
by year seven.
9543 MR. J. YERXA: That's correct.
9544 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Explain your rationale to us for
that.
9545 MR. J. YERXA: Okay.
9546 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: While you gather your notes, the
other question I was going to ask related to that is: Are you being overly cautious and therefore
underestimating your impact on the incumbents?
9547 MR. J. YERXA: I honestly don't believe that we are being
overly optimistic. I did indicate in my
supplementary brief that I am a contrarian and that in the position that we are
in as a stand‑alone independent, we don't want to be overly optimistic.
9548 We actually saw a
potential perhaps eight share, but of course you know from seeing me in
previous appearances that you don't take the maximum; you take a percentage of
that.
9549 We scaled it back
to a four, given the dynamics of the market, given the fact that certainly
until people meters come in we may have some challenges related to the diary‑based
methodology. But we do know that once we
launch, there is a great opportunity to double our share ‑‑ I
mean to increase by 50 per cent within the first two years.
9550 Once we do that,
however, we are looking at a levelling off.
Our business plan is based on you licensing and least two commercial,
new commercial FMs and one specialty.
9551 Therefore, knowing
that there may be a compression coming, we just don't want to be overly
optimistic. We feel that that is quite a
reasonable projection.
9552 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: And because of course you just raised the
issue of how many we could license in the market, I also have no doubt that you
have had the opportunity to look at some of the other applications before us.
9553 In particular
Harvard, for example, is proposing that 40 per cent of its musical selections
will be devoted to current selections.
Rawlco is also proposing a new music and the emerging artist format and,
as you know, Pattison, Don Kay and Evanov are all proposing AAA formats.
9554 Which of those do
you see as the most competitive, the least competitive?
9555 MR. J. YERXA: We honestly do not believe that any of them
are very competitive with what we are proposing. We are the only applicant before you that is
specifically going after a younger demo of 15‑to‑29 core audience.
9556 Rawlco, for
example, they say new and emerging, but when you look at their deficiency
letter and you look at what they are proposing, they are saying it is a 30‑to‑40
year old core target. So obviously it
must fall somewhere within the AAA realm or something like that.
9557 So honestly we do
not see direct competition with any of the applications that are presently
before you. We truly will be a
complementary service in this market.
9558 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: So you could coexist if we were
to license you and any of the other applicants before us?
9559 MR. J. YERXA: Yes.
9560 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Okay. Fair enough.
9561 Your spoken word
programming, I'm going to take you to what you submitted with your oral
presentation today, because one of the questions I had when I looked at your
application was pure news, you had a total of 2 hours and 24 minutes and my
question was: No sports?
9562 But now you have 2
hours and 24 minutes of news and local sports in what you filed here.
9563 MR. J. YERXA: Right.
9564 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Which now begs the
question: Of 2 hours and 24 minutes, how
much is news?
9565 MR. J. YERXA: The CRTC always asks this question and
yet ‑‑
9566 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: You should be ready.
9567 MR. J. YERXA: I am.
But, you know, when you talk to young people, when you say how can we be
relevant to you, you know what news is to them?
How about my high school sports scores?
What's happening as far as the collegiate teams at the University? That is local news to them.
9568 It is such a
unique approach when it comes to pure news.
9569 If you want the
breakout, I figured well, we are going to be more sports heavy on weekends,
just because that is the way it goes Thursday, Friday, Saturday, which is also
why ‑‑ you are probably going to walk me to walk through the
people and their duties and I'm ready to do that. But that's why our weekend person will
be ‑‑ those casts will be a lot more sports heavy and they
will have the sports beat among a few others.
9570 Sports is
considered local news. It is what is
relevant to young people. It may not be
considered local pure news to the CRTC.
9571 So on that basis I
suppose that during the week, especially the early part of the week, I kind of
in my head an hour ago thought well, okay, we are probably looking at maybe 12
per cent, 10 or 12 per cent of each cast, maybe 15 seconds out of the two‑minuter. Then once we get into the weekends, you are
looking at probably half a minute out of the two‑minute cast.
9572 Therefore, I am
estimating two hours will be pure news, approximately, and then say another 25,
26 minutes of sports, 24. But that is
what you are looking at in terms of pure news.
9573 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: And I am going to ask you the
staffing questions because I didn't see it in your application. And if I did miss it, I apologize.
9574 Your total spoken
word commitment is six hours and 20 minutes, and I see here that you are saying
without announcer talk. So we do need to
go through your staffing plans, if you could provide that to us, please.
9575 MR. J. YERXA: Okay.
We are going to have three fulltime news staff. Logistically let's talk about first how this
is going to be accomplished.
9576 We will have our
morning reader, we will call that, our News Supervisor/Director, but they are
all going to be pretty equally balanced in terms of their skillset. Nonetheless, you do have to have a chief.
9577 Our morning reader
and supervisor will operate from 5:00 in the morning until 1:00 in the afternoon. They will be responsible for the newscasts
between 6:00 and 9:00. Then between 9:00
and 1:00 they will prepare the runs for the afternoon, including the
actualities.
9578 Especially all of
them will be responsible for pulling clips off of Newsline. That is incredibly important for this
demographic. We need feedback, both on
our Newsline and also taken from our website.
9579 They will conduct
follow‑up interviews, and so on, and prepare the afternoon run.
9580 Now, the second
person, the afternoon news reader, will operate from 1:00 until 9:00, Monday to
Friday. They will look after the
newscasts from 4:00 to 6:00, including evening meetings and the setting up of
news stories for the following morning.
9581 Now, our third
person will operate from 8:00 until 4:00 on Saturday and Sunday, and they will
look after the newscasts from 10:00 to 3:00.
They are going to have to come in at least an hour to two ahead because
they have to get those sports scores in, post them online. That is, as I said, a very important element
of this.
9582 The other three
days are flexible. In fact, for all of
them it is highly flexible, as long as they give us the 40 hours. You know, they have to do what is necessary.
9583 The key thing here
is that when you look at our promise and you look at us having three fulltime
journalists, we should be able to cover at least one evening meeting every
night of the week, if necessary, whether it be a council meeting or whether it
be some sort of event.
9584 Now, as far as
beats, they will be divided up into specific beats. The morning news reader will be responsible
for education, transportation, health and politics. The afternoon news reader will be responsible
for the environment, technology, arts and entertainment and, as I said, will
also cover many evening meetings.
9585 Therefore, he or
she will come in later in the day. They
will start at 1:00.
9586 Our weekend reads,
as I indicated earlier, will be more sports heavy. The third journalist will likely work
Saturday and Sunday, three flex days.
They will primarily be responsible for sports, high school and
collegiate, not NHL and other professional sports, as well as campus issues and
aboriginal issues. He or she, as I said,
will also be available to cover those meetings that we need coverage of.
9587 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: So what is your total?
9588 MR. J. YERXA: Three news people.
9589 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: And programming?
9590 MR. J. YERXA: Programming, I guess I just better ‑‑
let me just get the whole staff list.
9591 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Not a problem.
‑‑ Pause
9592 MR. J. YERXA: Here I thought I was lucky that you didn't
nail me in the deficiencies.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
9593 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: You have to leave something for
us to do at the hearing.
9594 MR. J. YERXA: Everybody else got nailed.
9595 All right. Here is what we have.
9596 We have seven on
air. You have the three news. We have the host of our morning show, 6:00 to
10:00. There will also be our chief
blogger that will handle specific promotion assignments. We have the host of our midday, who will also
be the music director in charge of music clock and format maintenance from
10:00 to 3:00; host of the afternoon drive, who will also be the program
director responsible for on‑air talent and general programming.
9597 We have the three
swings which are going to hold down the Saturday and Sunday, the three shifts,
plus they will be flexible on each taking approximately two other shifts.
9598 We have a
production manager that will oversee all the commercials responsible for all
the imaging and promotion, may do some on‑air. There may be some sharing if necessary.
9599 We have a creative
director responsible for the administration of all our commercial orders,
writing, will contribute to the website.
9600 We have our
promotions director who will oversee, edit, administer and manage the NEW‑FM
street team, which is a task which I think our promotions director is going to
be very capable of, and will also cochair the CCD Committee.
9601 We have our NEW Media
Administrator who will oversee, edit, administer all interactive content and
will cochair the Digital Youth Council.
9602 Now, I know you
are going to say but programming. This
is what he does and everything is going to filter through him. All of our key people will be able to update
and add information onto the site, but the key imaging, a lot of the key
website content will be filtered through Jordan.
9603 Okay, so now, do
you want me to continue?
9604 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: No, I think that covers it. I do understand that the Internet presence
that you will have is an integral part of your plan, so not to worry.
9605 I am going to move
on to CCD.
9606 I know you
provided quite an extensive response in the deficiency letter, dated March
17th, with regards to the over and above, but I do want to ask you: You say that each year as the basic annual
amount changes NEW‑FM will adjust factors over and above allotment,
thereby ensuring that it receives $125,000 annually, or $875,000 over the seven‑year
licence term.
9607 That is just the
over and above the 20 per cent of the over and above that goes to FACTOR?
9608 MR. J. YERXA: Commissioner Cugini, if I was to just give
you an over and above figure, would that ‑‑
9609 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: That would save us a heck of a
lot of time.
9610 MR. J. YERXA: Yes, okay.
$2,041,505.
9611 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Can you give us the breakdown on
a year‑by‑year basis?
9612 You don't have to
do that right now; you can file it with staff.
9613 MR. J. YERXA: Of course I can, but ‑‑ yes.
9614 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you. That's the right answer.
‑‑‑ Laughter/
Rires
9615 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Mr. Yerxa, I have a final
question for you and my colleagues of course may have others.
9616 Throughout your
application and again this afternoon in your oral presentation you point us to
the fact that you are local, that you are from Edmonton, that you don't plan on
moving and that this will of course, if we license you, add diversity of
ownership in the market. And, as you know,
we have very well heeled incumbents in the market and you would be here as a
stand‑alone operator.
9617 I heard you in
your oral presentation say that you have the financial backing to see this
through to the end, but I would like you to take us through why you feel it is
so very important for us to license someone who lives and breathes Edmonton in
light of, like I say, the incumbent reality.
9618 MR. J. YERXA: Well, I guess it really comes down to the
Broadcast Act. I mean, let's face it, it
has two objectives: Canadian content and
I guess access to the system by both participants in terms of ownership, as
well as bringing audiences into the system.
9619 So I suppose that
is the legal kind of technical position I'm taking.
9620 But beyond that, I
would hope, as we have indicated to you, go to our website ‑‑
some of the language is not necessarily appropriate, but it is what it is ‑‑
and just examine the degree of creativity and the tremendous response we have
been able to muster in this market.
9621 I just feel we are
so quick on our feet that we can make a decision in a matter of minutes if
necessary. We can yell at each other and
then we can agree that this is what we are going to do and we can move forward.
9622 I honestly believe
that some of the most innovative ideas that can come forward in this industry
will come through local independent ownership, because we have no choice. Innovation, survival, that is our key. It isn't a political process for us; it isn't
a bureaucracy.
9623 So also beyond
that ‑‑ and I mean, you know this ‑‑ we
reflect the market. We have tremendous
support in this market.
9624 I hope you read
our letters because they aren't form letters.
You know, you have your necessary letters from the Mayor and various
MLAs or Senator, whatever, but go read some of those other letters. See what people have written heartfelt.
9625 I think they will
also explain why it is so important to bring local ownership back to this
market.
9626 So vis‑à‑vis
the other players, it will be tough but we are in a sense a niche specialty
format.
9627 Your next question
will be: Well, okay, but what if they go
there? What if they position themselves
where you are?
9628 My response is
this ‑‑ and you also may say:
Well, what if you want to go where they are?
9629 Well, first of
all, we are not going to go on a suicide mission. They are well financed; they have more
resources in almost every interpretation of the word. Our survival will be to go down a road less
travelled, to do what we think we can do well.
9630 So we are not
going to compete with them and they are not going to compete with us because
they are all doing very well in this market, thank you.
9631 Why don't more
companies consider this? Why should
they?
9632 With the exception
of that little blip you saw in '06 on the PBITs, I mean this is a good market
and there is not a lot of incentive to rock the boat. In larger companies you have to have a
measured plan in the market.
9633 So I believe that
on that basis we are not going to go where they are. It is unlikely that they are going to go
where we are.
9634 The other thing is
that we have a COL of 20 per cent new and emerging, so we can't move. We are new and emerging. That is our essence.
9635 The other thing is
that you may wonder, well, these are smart people, these are well‑financed
people across this country. They can't
think of something like this?
9636 Well, my response
is as follows.
9637 Maybe what I will
do is let me just read you one excerpt here from a letter, just a very short
letter that was written by the former head of Newcap here in Alberta just until
very recently. I will quote him.
9638 Al Anderson, 47,
48 years in this market. In his letter
of support for me here's what he says:
"The youth market is essential
in regaining a segment of radio listeners who have been quickly disappearing to
the Internet and all of the other entertainment choices available today, a
market that the big‑box operators fear and refuse to serve." (As read)
9639 I mean, there it
is. It is just ‑‑ it is
a function of things are going well and why rock the boat and why go after a
less desirable demographic to some of them.
9640 So I hope that
answers some of your questions.
9641 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: It does and I hope I didn't take
away from the final two minutes that the Chairperson will give you.
9642 Thank you, Madam
Chair. Those are my questions.
9643 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Molnar...?
9644 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Thank you.
9645 Welcome and happy
birthday.
9646 MR. Z. YERXA: Thank you.
9647 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: I want to follow up and actually
the letter that you just quoted from really segues quite well into what I was
going to ask you.
9648 Without question I
think the whole system is stronger if we can repatriate youth into our
system. You know, it is obvious you have
a lot of passion in believing that you can do that and you have established a
business plan in significant detail that you believe will attain that.
9649 My question really
is a little bit about what if you are wrong.
What if the format doesn't work exactly as you have laid it out, the
formula isn't quite there? What if in
fact the youth want true news? What if
sports isn't news and they come back?
9650 So have you built
into your plan ways and means to be able to modify; you know, a little bit of
fluidness, if you will, so that you can respond to the youth market as you try
and repatriate them?
9651 MR. J. YERXA: Well of course, with some research background
you can appreciate that every chance I got this is my test market and of course
that is what brought us into a very extensive qualitative phase.
9652 We talked to so
many youth and disenfranchised people, non radio listeners who really told us
look, this is where it's at.
9653 I mean frankly, do
you want to know where it all started? A
few years ago when Barron looked at me and he said if you are so smart, you are
a consultant, right, how come we don't have a radio station for our generation?
9654 So that is kind of
how the process started a few years ago.
And we went out there and we talked to people, and what we are
presenting to you is not just one study; it is kind of a compilation of all
this examination that we have done of this market.
9655 Now I am assuming
inherent in your question to me is: Are
you going to make any adjustments to your programming, your staffing, if things
don't go well? And if you don't, what
are your funding options?
9656 Am I reading sort
of where you're going with this?
9657 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: You know, this is going to be
almost the first time this week I haven't asked a financial question.
9658 No, I really was
looking at what is it, how are you setting yourself up to ensure you are
getting the feedback from your target audience so that if you are wrong, you
can modify it.
9659 You have come in
with the formula. I understand you have
done a lot of research. I mean, a couple
of things happen. I understand a little
bit about youth myself, and tastes change quickly and so you need to be always,
always responsive.
9660 So what is it you
have set up or plan to set up to ensure that you are continually responding so
that we don't put in place a formula today and assess it on today and three,
six, eight months out of here things are changing and how will you change with
that?
9661 MR. SCHRODER: Commissioner Molnar, as part of our three
pillar new media strategy, the first of which is Internet mobile, which I would
be happy to go into again if you wish. The
third pillar is of course the Digital Youth Council that me and Hunter will be
cochairing.
9662 As a preface to
this, the genres that we have staked out, that Zach as the programmer and the
director will be targeting, they are fluid genres in and of themselves; they
influence each other.
9663 So five years from
now a Hip‑Hop song may not sound like a Hip‑Hop song did five years
ago or today. So by definition the music
as it evolves will move with the genres for that reason alone.
9664 But in terms of
how we get the feedback to stay on top of that, the Digital Youth Council will
be designed to position NEW‑FM as an industry leader to better serve its
younger audience.
9665 Of course the
DYC's primary mandate will be to solicit feedback on cutting edge and
innovative trends, both in Web and mobile technology, and we also have a
broader vision that speaks to education and leadership in the community.
9666 If you like, I can
go into that.
9667 But it is through
the council that will be the cutting edge of the trends within the genres.
9668 MR. J. YERXA: What youth have told us right now is this, is
if you want me to listen to commercial radio you had better give me new
music. That is what we want, NEW‑FM. We want new music from these for genres, and
if you can promise to continue to give us this music and keep surprising us and
keep it compelling, then we are in.
9669 It's interesting,
you know when we talked to some of the advertisers out there ‑‑
could we give you some feedback that some of them have given us, the
interactivity, because that is essential?
9670 What they have
said to us is that if you go interactive ‑‑ and the youth have
said this as well. If you keep this
interactive and you keep listening to us, we won't leave your side. Radio is so yesterday, but yet what we are
doing right now is exciting so many youth in this market.
9671 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Okay. Fair enough.
9672 So you will be
interactive on the music format and you will also be interactive on the spoken
word format. So if they say to you we
need more spoken word, we are interested in more news, you would plan to
respond to that?
9673 MR. J. YERXA: Yes, absolutely.
‑‑‑ Pause
9674 MR. J. YERXA: We have a number of features, a number of
concepts that we have kind of kept quiet, things that have come out of our
qualitative.
9675 I will go into them
if you want, but they are concepts that have come through our feedback where
youth have said if you do this, if you do that, if you do ‑‑
you know, if you offer us this kind of information, and what we have done is we
have built it around this sort of concept of new, the idea that, you know ‑‑
I mean something ‑‑ let's start very basis, something like new
question of the day. You know, we will
present it every morning and we will get feedback and we will get it online and
we will get it on air and we will filter it back.
9676 New expressions,
where we take the information that the youth put on our site and on our
newsline and filter it back again, or distribute it I should say, to the
market.
9677 I mean, we have
all these new tech ‑‑ we have all these ideas that they have
given us to keep things compelling, because as the Commission knows, I mean,
your question often goes from well, okay beyond music what are you going to do
that is so compelling? And news and spoken
word is an important element of that. We
can't just present news and spoken word; we have to keep it compelling and
interesting for the youth.
9678 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Thank you.
9679 I have just one
more question and it is just a follow‑up to something you stated in your
opening remarks.
9680 In speaking of
what you must do in terms of your news and spoken word programming, you said we
must be concise, we must be relevant. In
the area of we must be relevant, you said that:
"Listeners primarily want
information that reflects their interests and concerns. That means more emphasis on technology,
education, jobs, the environment, cultural diversity and various other social
issues."
9681 Do you see that
there is a need or a gap as it regards cultural diversity today and what's
available?
9682 MR. J. YERXA: Well, I think Zach touched on this a little
bit.
9683 You know, the
issue of cultural diversity is not as big an issue with the youth. I mean, they are very culturally diverse.
9684 I guess what I'm
saying is that if we provide them with information related to cultural
diversity, it is because we are reflecting youth and they have asked for
it. They have asked us to reflect their
interests and concerns. It is something
that we just have to do in order to be relevant to them.
9685 MR. SCHRODER: Commissioners, I will just add that, you
know, if we are doing remotes or soliciting feedback, we will go out of our way
to find voices that aren't being heard in the local or mainstream media, That might mean going to community leagues or
cultural centers around the city, and reflecting whatever is happening there
will be a large part of our programming.
9686 MR. J. YERXA: As far as cultural diversity is concerned,
musically I mean we have it. You look at
our website. We have local artists on
our website that have never really had any adequate radio exposure.
9687 We have a couple
of aboriginal groups that are amazing.
One of them is one of the most decorated aboriginal groups in this
country.
9688 We have a South
Asian rapper. We have ‑‑
I mean, it is just amazing cultural diversity musically.
9689 As far as our
spoken word, we will ‑‑ as I mentioned to you, one of our news
personnel will have a dedicated aboriginal beat and we will of course be in
touch with the stakeholders. We will not
only be in touch with them but we will try and get their opinions and their
concerns and reflect it back through our spoken word programming.
9690 Beyond that, as
far as our promotions, our street team is incredibly diverse already, just with
the feedback that we have received on our website and the people coming forward
just wanting to be involved in this.
9691 Do you want us to
touch on the staffing, what we are going to do in‑house to maintain a
reflection of the community? Would you
like any information on that?
9692 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: I will give you the opportunity
the share that, yes.
9693 MR. J. YERXA: All right.
9694 Linda...?
9695 MS BRAIN: Insofar as the spoken word aspect of our
station, it is probably one of the most sensitive areas insofar as cultural
diversity is concerned. We will ensure
that our staff are very well educated in the area insofar as making sure we
understand their vocabulary, their unique behaviours, et cetera.
9696 Is there a gap
now?
9697 Well, I can
probably very honestly say there is a lot of room for improvement. We will strive to have experts available for
comment and interviews, not only on culturally sensitive areas and their
expertise, but we also want to seek their opinions in other areas as well.
9698 Our news and
programming staff will have very good training, a very good understanding of
the sensitivities of cultural diversity in all aspects of the designated groups
or the many aspects of the designated groups, including people with
disabilities.
9699 MR. J. YERXA: On that note I just want Jordan ‑‑
we were discussing this a few days ago and just on the issue of persons with
disabilities, because that often gets left out, we just want to introduce a
concept that we are considering for our website.
9700 MR. SCHRODER: Thanks, John.
9701 Commissioners, it
is something that we are very excited about.
Essentially we are investigating the possibility of coupling what would
essentially function as a closed captioning system to our text‑based live
streams and podcasts. So effectively
online or mobile users may be able to access a near live text transcript of all
our news and spoken word programming, as well as the interstitial talk between
the musical programming.
9702 This could likely
tie into our on‑demand track listing service via SMS texting.
9703 The most exciting
thing in terms of diversity in the designated groups would be to provide a
greater access for our hearing‑impaired youth that may be in our audience
and involved in online forums or in our events and promotions in the city.
9704 MR. J. YERXA: We know that there are hearing‑impaired
youth. They are on the message boards
and that. Why can't they get a text or
get a ‑‑ why can't they have a written version of the podcasts
and other special features that we make available?
9705 So these are all
areas that we are exploring.
9706 COMMISSIONER
MOLNAR: Thank you very you much.
9707 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Yerxa.
9708 I have a question
because we have heard at length about your audience and how in tune you are
going to be and how responsive you are going to be able to be to them.
9709 What I'm curious
about, I believe Ms Pierce in her comments commented on the spending
ability of youth, or least of their parents.
9710 I'm just
wondering, can you tell me a bit about your advertisers and how they will
differ, if they will at all, from conventional formats?
9711 MR. J. YERXA: First of all, you will notice in your kit we
have given you a breakout of a number of advertiser comments that have been
made locally. These people have written
in support of us and said not only do we think it is a good idea that you
license John Yerxa, but you know if he is licensed, I'm in. I am there as an advertiser.
9712 Beyond that,
Sherri and I together, we approached a number of, well over about two dozen
people and we ‑‑ well, to give you an example, we talked to,
let's say, City of Edmonton, Alberta Government Planning, Paul Henderson from
McDonald's. We talked to Don Graves U of
A, Pizza 73, St. Gabriel Cyber School, one of the top agency people at DDB,
ADAC, Labatts, Prairie Milk Marketing, Subway, and the list goes on here.
9713 But what I would
like to do is I just want to give you an overview of what they said as a group
when we kind of added up our anecdotal evidence and everything.
9714 Ninety per cent of
them said it is difficult to reach teens and young adults. It's difficult. And 40 per cent of them just said it's very
difficult. I mean, radio is often not on
our radar.
9715 When we asked them
what are the chances that you might allocate some ad dollars, Sherri and I
figured between us that it was about 90 per cent said very likely.
9716 We said well,
would those be new dollars or would they be ‑‑ I mean, try
asking somebody if they want to spend new dollars. It is often going to be the existing ad
budget.
9717 But 30 per cent,
DDB, ADAC, Subway, Boston Pizza, Future Shop, TELUS Mobility, they said we
would spend new dollars. If you can do
this, if you can interact with these people and connect with them and do what
you are setting out to do, we are very seriously going to look at you.
9718 From those who
said that it would come from existing budget, it is largely from other media.
9719 When we asked
them, like Subway, I will take it from TV; 7‑Eleven, TV and online; Black
& Lee ‑‑ and even the Federal Union Advertising, they said
washroom ads, things like that we'll take it from.
9720 Future shop, TELUS
Mobility, TV, community papers. And we
asked them. We said okay, we know this
is probably a loaded question but would you spend more on radio? And 25 per cent said yes, we would spend more
on radio.
9721 That's why you
notice we were pretty close when we said I think 30 per cent new, even though
some of this is from others. But when
you take that in concert with the testimonials that we've given you, we are
pretty confident that we can get 30 per cent new business.
9722 I know that for a
fact because a lot of the research that I have done in this market that has
been purchased by the other majors ‑‑ I have a product called
PAR, Perceptual Advertiser Research, that has been purchased by Corus and
Newcap in years past, and there are 80,000 businesses, okay, in this city. Half of them have employees; there's 40,000. You take 10 per cent of that, there is 4,000. You take the average client list, active
clients. What have you got, maybe 400 to 600.
9723 This is in line
with what people have said to me consistently in research. Nobody ever calls on me.
9724 But of course what
they also don't know is that probably the top tier stations in this market are
sold out eight to ten months of the year, so there is really no incentive to go
and call on them.
9725 So these people
that we talked to, 90 per cent of them said it is very important.
9726 People like Nancy
Bryant at the City of Edmonton said:
"I like it. This is a very unique, different
approach."
9727 We asked them, we
said you tell us what you think and we are going to write this down.
9728 Robin Dawson,
Alberta Government Planning:
"It would be a very good thing
if this station sticks with its proposed format engaging youth in their
technology."
9729 Paul Henderson,
McDonald's:
"If NEW‑FM becomes a
social network, it will be a success."
9730 U of A:
"This is positive for
Edmonton. The Bounce and SONiC are not
reaching all of the teens and young adults."
9731 Pizza 73:
"No station in Edmonton is
serving this demo."
9732 St. Gabriel Cyber
School:
"I would absolutely support a
youth station."
9733 ADAC:
"There are no negatives. This is an exciting way of approaching the
youth demo, using their technology."
9734 Grant MacEwan:
"This is great. I would be interested in sponsorship and
contests associated with NEW‑FM."
9735 Jump in, by the
way.
9736 MS PIERCE: It's hard.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
9737 MS PIERCE: I will add to that list with other more
national clients.
9738 Subway I think
John mentioned. Their comment was:
"This is fantastic. It's a tough demo to reach and vital for the
lifeline of radio."
9739 We have Shelley
Warner, who represents 7‑Eleven, saying:
"What is interesting to me is
the interactivity. We can extend our
message in another medium and this is great."
9740 We have Boston
Pizza who said:
"We haven't fully developed a
strategy online yet, but this radio station would be of interest from that
perspective."
9741 And we have DSA
Baron, Bill Fitch, who said for the ATB Financial and that financial category
overall:
"This is a core demographic
group for our financial client. We are
very interested."
9742 As John alluded
to, Future Shop and TELUS Mobility, represented by Mike Rumble, said:
"We would definitely use this
station. It is a great segment for our
market."
9743 MR. J. YERXA: I forget who it was but I know there was one
person who said something along the lines that, you know, when you first said
new station, I was going to scream, but when I found out who you were targeting
I'm in.
9744 Who was that?
9745 MS PIERCE: That was Carrie.
9746 MR. J. YERXA: Carrie Barlow.
9747 MS PIERCE: Barlow Media.
9748 MR. J. YERXA: Okay.
9749 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
9750 When you were
describing your staffing, did you comment or did I miss the number of your
sales staff, what approach you are going to take to that?
9751 MR. J. YERXA: Yes.
We are going to start with three plus one. What I mean by that is, first of all ‑‑
and I'm sure in the audience there is raised eyebrows. Wow, where is the five to seven person sales
force?
9752 I have already
had, obviously because of my contacts in the industry, significant interest
from established, well seasoned sales people; not that I'm just going to steal
everybody's sales people.
9753 But my feeling is
when you come into this market you need to give seasoned ‑‑
you need to give salespeople a chance to get established. They have to have a healthy client list. We don't want to just launch seven or eight
starters out on the street and have them all starve.
9754 So we are starting
with three.
9755 But the other
thing we are doing, when I say plus one, is I have what I call a dedicated
sales agency specialist. I have someone
in the industry who has also helped me in compiling some of this who said to me
I am prepared ‑‑ I love this concept, and I will take your key
regional/national accounts and I will take it to them, because I have relationships
with them for the past 10 to 15 years.
9756 What that means is
effectively we have four, because this person is on a commission only
basis. They will bring in that
regional/national business and I can dedicate our three people specifically to
local retail.
9757 I'm not going to
send a bunch of starters into agency veterans.
We can establish that relationship with someone who is one of them.
‑‑‑ Pause
9758 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Off microphone.
9759 MR. J. YERXA: Our national is 5 per cent.
9760 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sorry about that.
9761 MR. J. YERXA: Our national is 5 per cent? You are talking of our year one revenue?
9762 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
9763 MR. J. YERXA: Okay.
9764 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Actually, I was looking at
your total across the seven years. It
probably continues the trend.
9765 MR. J. YERXA: Yes, I think it goes 5 per cent, 1 and
2, and then it jumps to 8 per cent. It
is never going to go much beyond 10 per cent, just by virtue of the fact that, you
know, we are a stand‑alone. We are
right at the bottom to start. We don't
have a BBM. We can't cluster sell. We are going to have, you know, a limited bit
of national business to begin with, so it is reflective of that.
9766 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Yerxa,
for the very complete answers, and your team.
9767 Legal...?
9768 MS LEMOUX: Yes.
9769 With respect to
your undertaking of providing a yearly breakdown of your over and above CCD
contributions, can you provide these numbers by Thursday, end of day, and
confirm also by writing at the same time that you would accept these amounts as
a condition of licence?
9770 MR. J. YERXA: I will.
9771 MS LEMOUX: Thank you.
That's it.
9772 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
9773 Mr. Yerxa, this is
your two minutes to conclude.
9774 I notice you have
a stop watch there. ‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
9775 MR. J. YERXA: I thought I might lose it a little bit ‑‑
9776 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Hopefully you won't have to
use it.
9777 MR. J. YERXA: I thought I might lose it a little bit in the
oral. This kept me focused. A lot of emotion.
9778 Well, you are
right, some of it was said. But I guess
what I will do here is I will just ‑‑ why don't I try to focus
little bit on those aspects of our application that I think are different from
the other applicants. Maybe that is an
interesting approach to this.
9779 When I say the
other applicants, let's talk about the other English‑language proposals,
because I have no problem with the native or ethnic licences that are before
you.
9780 First, we are the
only applicant that is specifically targeting the under 35 demographic in this
market with a particular focus on teens and young adults.
9781 Our proposal will
repatriate a higher number of youth to local commercial radio that everyone
else.
9782 Our proposal is more
aggressive in its embracement of the challenges brought on by the Internet and
new media, starting with the launch of our new FM website and its rapidly
expanding Facebook membership.
9783 We are only one of
two applicants that I'm aware of that has accepted a COL to devote 20 per
cent of our entire playlist to new and emerging artists, regardless of future
conditions. You know, you can always
tick on the box in the application that I won't accept it as a COL. We did.
9784 We are the only
music applicant that I'm aware of that has committed to be live 24/7.
9785 We are the only
English‑language application before you that will be 100 per cent owned
and controlled by a resident of Edmonton.
9786 I believe these
aspects of our application, when taken together, give you some very compelling
reasons for approving NEW‑FM.
9787 As I said earlier,
I am also mindful that the Broadcast Act has two objectives: one, the predominance of Canadian content;
two, full access by Canadians to the system both as participants in the
industry and as audiences. This
application meets both of those objectives.
9788 So on behalf of my
children, my extended family, we look forward to making NEW‑FM a success
in Edmonton. You have our
commitment. We won't let you down.
9789 Thank you.
9790 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Yerxa,
and your team, too.
9791 And again, happy
birthday.
9792 MR. Z. YERXA: Thank you.
9793 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I just want to make two
announcements.
9794 Tomorrow morning,
we are going start at 9:00, not that I expect we are going to lose any of our
audience.
9795 We will break for
15 minutes and I'm sure the Pattison Group will be as entertaining.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
9796 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing
at 1604 / Suspension à 1604
‑‑‑ Upon resuming
at 1622 / Reprise à 1622
9797 THE
SECRETARY: We will now proceed with Item
22, which is an application by Jim Pattison Group Broadcast Ltd. (the general
partner) and Jim Pattison Industries Ltd. (the limited partner), carrying on
business as Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Ltd. Partnership for a licence to
operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking
in Edmonton.
9798 The new station
would operate on frequency 107.1 MHz, Channel 296C‑1, with an effective
radiated power of 40,000 watts, non‑directional antenna, antenna height
of 272 metres.
9799 Appearing for the
applicant is Rick Arnish.
9800 Please introduce
your colleagues. You will then have 20
minutes to make your presentation.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
9801 MR. ARNISH: Thank you, Madam Secretary.
9802 Good afternoon,
Madam Chair and Members of the Commission and Commission staff. My name is Rick Arnish, President of the Jim
Pattison Broadcast Group.
9803 We are pleased to
be before you this afternoon with respect to our application for a new FM
station to service Edmonton to be known as The River. Our station would operate on 107.1 MHz on the
FM band, Channel 296, at an effective radiated power of 40 kW.
9804 Before commencing
our formal presentation, I would like to introduce the panel which is appearing
before you this afternoon.
9805 To my right is
Gerry Siemens, Vice‑President, General Manager of the Jim Pattison
Broadcast Group's Vancouver radio stations.
Gerry spent 16 years working in the Edmonton market on air and in
management, including eight years as the original Program Director of KISN‑FM.
9806 To Gerry's right
is Bill Dinicol, Vice‑President of Finance for the Pattison Broadcast
Group.
9807 To my left is
Jasmin Doobay, News Director of our Pattison Kelowna radio stations who will
speak to our news and information programming.
9808 To Jasmin's left
is Bruce Davis, Vice‑President of Sales.
Bruce spent more than 10 years in the Edmonton market as the General
Manager of three local stations and as the General Sales Manager of two others.
9809 In our back row we
have Gord Eno, who was with our Vancouver broadcast operations and who worked
on the music and spoken word programming proposed for The River. Gord will speak to the music components of
our application.
9810 Gord Eno also has
an Edmonton connection, having at one time been involved with the programming
and production of the station that is now known as EZ Rock.
9811 To Gord's left is
Mike Bowman, who has worked in radio sales in the Edmonton market area for 13
years and until quite recently was the General Sales Manager of SONiC‑FM
here in the capital city. Mike will
serve as the station's General Sales Manager and can speak to our revenue
forecasts and business plan.
9812 To Mike's left is
Tamara Stanners. Tamara worked with us
in interacting with the independent emerging artists community in Edmonton as
part of our preparations. Samara was
born and raised in Edmonton and served six years as an on‑air talent in
this city, including three as Music Director of KISN‑FM, before moving to
what was then known as CKRA‑FM.
9813 To Tamara's left
is Chris Weafer, our legal counsel from Owen Bird in Vancouver, and to Chris'
left is Jeff Vidler of Solutions Research Group who did the market research for
us in Edmonton.
9814 To Jeff's left is
Amanda Patrick, an Edmontonian who we hope will be arts and features producer
on the new station, The River.
9815 Madam Chair, we
are ready to begin our presentation.
9816 We will commence
with a four‑minute video which will give you a good picture of The River
FM, our proposed Adult Album Alternative format, which we believe is the best
choice for Edmonton.
‑‑‑ Video
presentation / Présentation vidéo
9817 MR. ARNISH: Madam Chair, the application we have before
you is extremely important for the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group. If approved, you will strengthen a radio
focused broadcast company which has been based in Western Canada since
1965. Our group has invested heavily in
secondary markets in Alberta but does not yet have a major market presence in
the province.
9818 Independents,
large groups and regional players have come and gone from the Western Canada
radio market over the last 43 years. One
thing that has remained constant is our shareholders' commitment to radio and
the growth of our radio group in Western Canada.
9819 We believe,
consistent with the Commission's criteria, that a new FM station for Edmonton
must have the following five points.
9820 One, add diversity
to the marketplace by providing a new format choice, as well as a strong
independent news voice.
9821 Two, have strong
Canadian Content Development initiatives and other tangible benefits that
contribute to the Canadian broadcasting system.
9822 Three, be based on
a solid realistic business plan and have the financial resources of a strong
owner to ensure that commitments are met by a stand‑alone station over a
seven‑year licence term and beyond.
9823 Four, have minimal
impact on existing players.
9824 Five, be
beneficial to the local community.
9825 Our written
application materials addressed all of those points, the highlights of which we
will address with you today. The Adult
Album Alternative, AAA, format is not currently available in Edmonton. Many applicants in this proceeding have demonstrated
the format will do well in the market.
The evidence before the Commission is more than convincing that the AAA
format is in demand.
9826 To speak on the
feel and flavour of The River FM, here is Gerry Siemens.
9827 MR. SIEMENS: In studying the Edmonton market we determined
that AAA represents a wide open opportunity as currently no one station is
associated with delivering this distinct format. Based on our research, we developed an
application for the AAA format that will incorporate a wide range of current
and recent music, supplemented with music from the 80s and 90s and the early
half of this decade.
9828 The station will
serve adults 29‑to‑49 years of age, skewing towards women 35‑to‑44
years of age. AAA has a broad and more
diverse playlist than most radio stations and less played tracks are quite
common. The music tends to be on the
fringe of mainstream popular music and Rock music and is quite often acoustic
based, with forays into Alternative Rock, Folk, Alternative Country, Blues and
even Jazz.
9829 The River will
place a heavy emphasis on current and recent material. 60 per cent of our music will have been
released within the last two years, with the remaining 40 per cent coming from
the 80s, 90s and earlier part of this decade.
9830 Core artists on
the new station will include multiple Juno Award winner, Alberta's very own
Feist; Juno Award winner Arcade Fire; plus The New Pornographers, along with
the likes of Jack Johnson and John Mayer.
9831 The licensing of
our station would create an exciting new vehicle to expose new and emerging
Canadian artists and will repatriate many listeners who have given up on
conventional radio.
9832 The River will be
on music intensive station that will operate as a Group 2 licence with a format
that will have a refreshing alternative to the existing Edmonton FM stations.
9833 It is clear that
the AAA format will be a new format which adds diversity to the Edmonton radio
market.
9834 I will now ask
Jasmin Doobay to talk about our news and spoken word programming.
9835 MS DOOBAY: To set The River's spoken word programming
further apart from existing Edmonton stations, three longform programs will
include Voices Today, Into the Arts Weekend and The River Ecozone, all part of
a Sunday brunch radio magazine.
9836 As well, the daily
shortform features include The River Point of View, The River Ecozone daily,
Into the Arts daily, Talking Rocks and Fit for Life.
9837 We will provide
six hours and 20 minutes of locally produced news programming each week. Each of these programs will be unique to
Edmonton and will be created and produced by The River, adding diversity to the
city.
9838 We are
particularly excited about our green focus, reflected in The River Ecozone
programs and in the culture of the radio station. Edmonton has taken an international role in
the complex and challenging area of environmental leadership. While all may not agree on the solutions, all
agree that critical issues exist.
9839 Our green approach
to this application articulates the core values of our listeners and will
constitute a unique new voice. The
concern for the environment was highlighted in our audience research, where
more than 70 per cent of potential River listeners stated that they would
welcome environmental tips, information and discussion of environmental issues
of a new station.
9840 I will now ask
Amanda Patrick to make a comment on The River's arts programming.
9841 MS PATRICK: The City of Edmonton has a dynamic and vital
arts scene that receives little exposure on existing commercial radio
stations. Coverage and promotion of the
arts will be an integral component of The River, adding a new voice for the
arts to the city.
9842 Into the arts
weekend edition will be a 30‑minute program that will take our listeners behind
the curtain of arts and cultural events throughout Edmonton, with in‑depth
interviews with actors, dancers, directors, musicians and producers.
9843 The longform
feature will be complemented by our daily Into the Arts shortform feature,
which will air ten times during the broadcast week.
9844 I will now turn
the microphone over to Gord Eno to speak to some of the music programs that
will air on The River.
9845 MR. ENO: The River program schedule features a number
of innovative music programs. The Daily
Demo each weekday evening from 8:00 to 8:30 will present music demos primarily
from local emerging artists, providing their first radio exposure.
9846 Threshold, Sunday
nights from 7:00 to 10:00, is a showcase for Canadian and international
emerging artists. Presenting new music
from a vast spectrum of AAA artists, Threshold will have an experimental
texture, exploring new ideas in music.
9847 Friday nights at
9:00 Basement Suite will offer The River listeners an hour of unplugged and
roots performances.
9848 Sunday nights,
from 10:00 until midnight, The River presents Late Night Chill, a newly branded
subgenre of AAA. Chill is the laid‑back
side of Adult Album Alternative music.
9849 Border Crossings
is a weekly one‑hour program featuring music that transcends the borders
or parameters of established music genre descriptions. Border Crossings is culturally diverse world
music, focusing on cutting edge, traditional and popular international
selections. Artists, many being local,
will perform aboriginal, Cuban, Latin, Roma, Caribbean and Bhangra music.
9850 Energy will be
hosted by radio students from the Northern Alberta Institute of
Technology. Airing Saturday night at
11:00, their program will feature interviews, innovative music and experimental
radio programming creating an expanded voice for student radio.
9851 All scheduled
spoken word programming plus interstitial announcer dialogue will generate 23
hours and 43 minutes of locally produced programming.
9852 MR. SIEMENS: The River will have a mandate of new media
audience interactivity that will generate a forum for diverse opinions. Each of the spoken word programs and the
special music programs will have corresponding webpages on The River website.
9853 For example, the
on‑air Ecozone features will have corresponding webpages containing
listener generated green tips, discussion groups, listener polls, blogs,
podcasts and extended audio of the on‑air interviews.
9854 In addition to
those website features, the Into the Arts webpages will also include an area
for listener reviews of local arts events such as visual arts exhibits, theatre
productions and film festivals.
9855 The daily demo
will archive bio information on each of the featured emerging artists and,
where available, provide audio on demand links to sample, download or purchase
their music where possible.
9856 The keystone of
The River website will be The River performance project webpages. These will track the project through the
initial stages of the call for artists through to the announcement of the final
three River performers. Content will
include video webcasts of The River performance concert series, artist bios and
streaming of their songs and videos, with listeners voting for their favourite
contestant online or through e‑mail and text messaging.
9857 The River
performance project pages will utilize a number of new media concepts to offer
an enhanced Canadian Content Development initiative.
9858 Every opportunity
to create an interactive relationship between River listeners and the radio
station will be explored with new media being a complementary means of
communication.
9859 MR. ARNISH: Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, I
would like to highlight for you our CCD commitments.
9860 In preparing this
application we wanted to make sure that we conveyed to the Commission and the
community that we take our obligation to Canadian content development very
seriously. We recognize that we should
be prepared to make a significant commitment if we are privileged enough to have
this licence awarded to our Broadcast Group.
Our commitments and our package of Canadian Content Development
initiatives amount to $12,250,000 over the course of the seven‑year
licence term. This amount includes $7
million in direct cash contributions to support the various initiatives and an
indirect contribution of $5,250,000 in on‑air and promotional support
from other Pattison companies.
9861 The plan has six
parts, as detailed in our supplementary brief, each of them quite different,
but all designed to:
9862 (1) benefit
emerging artists, including aboriginal emerging artists;
9863 (2) create
sustainable Canadian content; and
9864 (3) be of long‑term
benefit to the system as a whole.
9865 We recognize the
importance of the national organization FACTOR and have committed
$1.4 million over the course of the licence term to FACTOR, with $210,000
of that amount designated for use by aboriginal artists.
9866 We have committed
$210,000 for the Save the Music Foundation or other eligible organizations for funding
and support of music in schools.
9867 Another commitment
is $350,000 to the Edmonton Folk Music Festival.
9868 We have also
committed $1.5 million for the support of Aboriginal Voices Radio. AVR will speak in support of our application
later in this proceeding, but suffice it to say that the Jim Pattison Broadcast
Group has made the determination that this is an entity that needs to survive
and thrive in the Canadian radio market to truly create an access for
aboriginal people to our broadcasting system.
9869 We are proud to be
supporting that important initiative.
9870 Finally, we are
extremely proud to be in the position to fund a unique, innovative project
designed to focus on support for the development of emerging artists in
Alberta. We went to the experts to
create this program. We asked the music
industry the question: What do emerging
artists need to get a foothold in the music industry?
9871 We were told that
five areas of support are needed:
9872 (1) a solid
financial footing;
9873 (2) marketing;
9874 (3) airplay;
9875 (4) tourist
support; and
9876 (5) solid
management and a development plan.
9877 Our $3,540,000
commitment over the term of our licence is specifically focused on serving
those five needs. Our River Performance
Project is detailed in our supplementary brief and we would be pleased to
answer any questions you may have on the proposal.
9878 Now here is Tamara
Stanners.
9879 MS STANNERS: Thank you and good afternoon.
9880 One of my roles in
assisting the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group in preparing this application was to
discuss The River Performance Project with young artists working in the
Edmonton music community.
9881 As demonstrated in
the video, I can confirm that there is both a need for and a strong interest in
this unique proposal. One common comment
was that it was built with artists in mind.
Clearly the interests of the local music industry guided the project and
there is a strongly held belief that this initiative will launch new emerging
artists, many of them in Edmonton.
9882 There is a growing
trend of decentralization of the music industry in Canada as emerging artists
in cities like Edmonton strike out on their own, independent of Toronto‑based
major labels.
9883 The River
Performance Project will create a valuable outlet for up‑and‑coming
artists to further their careers. There
is nothing like it in Edmonton and combined with the recently approved Peak
Performance Project in Vancouver, we will create an incredible opportunity for
Western Canadian artists.
9884 You have heard
from artists in our video and I can confirm that there is significant local
support for this major investment in emerging Canadian talent.
9885 MR. ARNISH: Why license the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group?
9886 Madam Chair,
Members of the Commission, you have a large number of applicants before you in
this proceeding. We are all making
promises about our contributions to the community, to Canadian talent and to
the broadcast system, but to deliver on these contributions there must be a
business case.
9887 The Pattison
Broadcast Group has a long history of running niche formats in a major market.
9888 Our Vancouver
operation where we have operated our FM station in a Country format for over 21
years, that station has been named by Canadian Music Week as Country Music
Station of the Year for four of the last five years. In 2007 it received the prestigious Major
Market Radio Station of the Year Award at the Canadian Country Music Awards.
9889 We know how to
successfully launch and operate a unique format competitively in a major
market. We know that we must be patient
as a new station appealing to a tightly targeted audience takes time to find
its feet. We know that given time, this
format will work. We are committed to
making it work.
9890 We have confidence
in our ability to meet the ambitious commitments we have made. We have a solid and attainable business
plan. We have a management team in place
with deep local Edmonton and major market experience, and we have the resources
of the Pattison Group of Companies behind us.
9891 The consolidation
of ownership in the broadcasting industry has made it even more important to
ensure that regional players be strengthened and enabled to compete fairly and
effectively. We have been serving
western Canada markets for 43 years and remain committed to the growth of our
regional broadcast company. Our
application, if approved, will have minimal impact on existing competitors in
the market, as they are all strong companies.
9892 Madam Chair,
Members of the Commission, the Pattison Broadcast Group keeps its promises and
serves its communities. We have a core
belief, as does our shareholder, that the more we serve our community, the more
successful we will be.
9893 In preparing this
application we took the opportunity to have our stations throughout British
Columbia and Alberta speak to their communities as to whether we were a quality
local broadcaster. The response from
those communities was humbling.
9894 Not‑for‑profit
agencies such as the Canadian Cancer Society, Variety Club, the Canadian Mental
Health Association, Mothers Against Drunk Driving, elected officials, Mayors,
MLAs, MPs in all sectors of communities from across Western Canada took the
time to write positive letters of support to let you know that we will provide
quality community focused local service in Edmonton, consistent with that which
we have been providing other communities in Western Canada for over 43 years.
9895 Collectively, the
Jim Pattison Broadcast Group commits in excess of $12 million in airtime and
raises hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash each year in support of
charitable public and community service.
9896 The over 200
letters of support indicating the commitment of our shareholder and our radio
stations to the Edmonton community are strong evidence as to how the addition
of a new Jim Pattison Broadcast Group FM station in Edmonton will benefit the
community.
9897 Madam chair, in
closing, the Pattison Broadcast Group believes this application, if approved,
would be the best utilization of the 107.1 FM frequency and submits that
approval is therefore in the public interest and in furtherance of the
objectives of the Broadcasting Act.
9898 Approval will:
9899 One, result in $7
million in direct benefits targeted primarily to emerging artists and
Aboriginal Voices Radio; a further $5,250,000 in direct benefits will be
provided over the licence term.
9900 Two, add a new AAA
FM format which will air 40 per cent Canadian content. 15 per cent of all airtime will be devoted to
emerging artists. That represents 37.5
per cent of all Canadian selections. The
new station will add diversity and embrace new and emerging artists unlike any
existing station in Edmonton.
9901 Three, it will
create 28 new jobs in the broadcast industry in this city.
9902 Four, it will
provide 23 hours and 43 minutes weekly of innovated spoken word programming
from a Western Canada‑based company which has invested heavily in small‑market
stations throughout this province. A new
Edmonton‑based editorial voice will be created to support that regional
investment.
9903 The Pattison
Broadcast Group has been meeting or exceeding its obligations under the
Broadcasting Act for over 43 years. We
hope the Commission will grant us the opportunity to meet and exceed the
commitments set out above and enable us to compete in the Edmonton market with
a new and exciting station, The River.
9904 Thank you, Madam
Chair, Members of the Commission and Commission staff. We look forward to responding to your
questions.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Arnish.
9905 I am going to
start the questioning, and the other Panel members I'm sure will have some
follow‑up questions.
9906 I want to first
off start to discuss your spoken word schedule.
I have the schedule that you submitted here referred to as Schedule 1B.
9907 I'm wondering how
much of the six hours and 20 minutes of news and sports reports, how many hours
and minutes will be pure news?
9908 MR. ARNISH: Well, I will start off and then have Jasmin
fill you in with all those details. We
when looked at the Edmonton market and looked at what was available in the
marketplace and did our homework and our study, working with Solutions
Research, one of the facts that came out very clearly to all of us, not only
was the AAA format in high demand here in this market with a ratio of female to
male potential listeners, but those listeners to this new station that we are
proposing here in Edmonton really want to have their fix of news, and with that
we built the schedule of news and information around that.
9909 Jasmine, I will
let you fill Madam Chair in with the details.
9910 MS DOOBAY: The specifics of news and sports reports
would be six hours and 20 minutes, and I would take maybe 20 minutes of that to
be the sports aspect of it, perhaps 30 seconds within a four or a three‑minute
newscast. Then traffic and surveillance
material is an additional five hours and 31 minutes.
9911 Six hours of pure
news, 20 minutes of sports.
9912 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Of the six hours how much will be local news?
9913 MS DOOBAY: As a News Director currently, I can say that
a newscast could easily be 100 per cent local content. That is very easy to do even with national
and international stories by bringing it back to the Edmonton community and
making sure that we are in touch ‑‑ if we look at an
international story such as the China earthquake, that we are in touch with the
local Chinese community to say hey, how are you dealing with this and what can
we do to help get the word out?
9914 On average, I
would say that local news content would be 80 per cent.
9915 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
9916 Can you just
elaborate on why you feel such a considerable amount of spoken word programming
is going to be appealing to your audience?
9917 MR. ARNISH: Well, again I will have Mr. Siemens and Mr.
Eno comment on that.
9918 We just felt,
based on our approval in Vancouver for The Peak, which we sincerely thank the
Commission for granting us that licence, that when we were putting our plans
together for Edmonton, when we looked into the format of AAA we found that to
be able to provide an excellent format for a city, whether it be Vancouver or
Edmonton, the spoken word was a very important part of a AAA format, and that
certainly came out our research.
9919 Gerry...?
9920 MR. SIEMENS: Yes, well, it surely did. Mr. Vidler could speak to this as well.
9921 When we looked at
the Edmonton research we found that The Peak listener ‑‑
pardon me, The River listener certainly has a need to know. They don't want us to waste their time, but
they certainly have an interest in news; they have a keen interest in the
environment.
9922 These are very
active listeners who are involved with physical activities, skating and
boarding and skiing, and so their lifestyle is very tight into their need to
know.
9923 So we decided to
build a radio station that could encompass all of those things.
9924 I think the other
thing that the spoken word does is it differentiates our application from some
of the others that you have to consider today, and it certainly differentiates
us from what is going on in the Edmonton market at this time.
9925 We can talk a
little bit about the music and how our station would be different from the
other applicants, but the spoken word programming really does set us apart.
9926 So I am going to
ask Gord to talk a little bit about the spoken word programming and then I'm
going to come back and talk a little bit about some of the music differences
between ourselves and the other applicants.
9927 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
9928 MR. ENO: The reason to do the spoken word amount that
we did, that we are proposing, is precisely to be different. Spoken word programming is very important. Any station can play music.
9929 For instance, so
far this year seven Edmonton stations played U2's With You or Without You, for
over 200 spins. There is an idiom in
broadcasting that says what is important is between the records. We want The River to stand apart from
existing stations and, for that matter, the competing applications with a mix
of spoken word programming that is both pragmatic and good programming.
9930 The River listener
will appreciate intelligence, articulate spoken word programming through a
thoughtful and professional presentation.
It won't be stuffy or dry, nor inane.
The River listener likes to be kept up to date, considers themselves
individual thinkers and, having sufficient information, will be able to make up
their own mind on issues.
9931 Some of the spoken
word programming that we feature in our application that makes The River
different are, well, First Voices, which is a weekly 30‑minute spoken
word program that will explore and understand the differences and similarities
in a wide range of cultural communities in Edmonton.
9932 Talking Rocks is a
daily short form feature highlighting aboriginal stories and events in Alberta
and Edmonton.
9933 But perhaps the
most significant difference in programming that is largely ignored in Edmonton,
Into The Arts. It is both a daily and
weekly feature covering the arts.
9934 We have a passion
and a belief in the function the arts play in the community. For instance, Edmonton is known as Festival
City. There are 30 festivals, 3 million
visits to those festivals.
9935 Besides the
obvious entertainment value of the arts, there is the enrichment part of the
arts programming and what the arts brings to a community. Whether it is visual or choral or performing
arts or theatre there is an aspect of the arts that reflects the diversity of
the community on all sorts of levels.
9936 That is what we
try to do with our spoken word programming, is to exercise some diversity
through spoken word; and the arts programming, which is not being done right
now, is part of that.
9937 MR. ARNISH: Thank you, Gord.
9938 I would like to
have Mr. Vidler from Solutions Research give you some background history
through his research project that he did for us here in Edmonton on this topic.
9939 Jeff...?
9940 MR. VIDLER: Thanks, Rick.
9941 The research does
really speak to the unique spoken word preferences of this market which have in
turn helped to frame some of the proposals that you see within the application
here.
9942 Like other 18‑to‑54
year olds, this audience does express a strong interest in hearing local news,
surveillance, survival information. They
have children, they have to get to work, they have the same kind of needs and
demands as everyone else.
9943 But where they are
different, where they show an above‑average interest in spoken word ‑‑
and this really helps to sort of frame I guess the unique character of the
audience and the programming plans ‑‑ is in information issues
relating to the environment, information on local arts and community events,
and also profiling a new emerging Canadian artist is something they showed an
above‑average interest in relative to 18‑to‑54 year olds in
general.
9944 So this really did
provide some of the framework for the application that you see before you.
9945 THE
CHAIRPERSON: When you were doing your
research did you ask what areas they were interested in or did you give them a
list to choose from and rank them? How
do you approach that?
9946 MR. VIDLER: In this case what we did was we presented
them with I believe there was about 10 or 11 different types of information
content and asked the extent to which they were interested in each of those
types and then compared the results of those people who indicated they would be
potential weekly reach listeners to The River with the other 18‑to‑54
year olds to get an idea where this audience over indexes to understand more
about how they are different from the other 18‑to‑54 year olds and
how you might attract them through spoken word programming.
9947 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Your audience, so your
broad audience, am I correct, is 25‑to‑49 and the core is 35‑to‑44.
9948 Is that correct?
9949 MR. SIEMENS: That is absolutely correct, yes. Yes.
9950 THE
CHAIRPERSON: But the research covers a
wider span?
9951 MR. VIDLER: Well, we looked at 18‑to‑54 year
olds, just recognizing this as a format that isn't so tightly focused on an
individual demographic but has a fairly broad appeal, and we wanted to look at
sort of the broader scope of 18‑to‑54 and from that really helped
to determine that the sweet spot, if you like, for the format was in that 25‑to‑49
or 35‑to‑44 core demographic.
9952 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thanks for that
explanation.
9953 I was just
wondering, Mr. Eno, you mentioned 30 million visits to festivals a year? Is that what you said?
9954 I just want to
make sure I got that correct.
9955 MR. ENO: I hope I didn't say that.
9956 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
9957 THE
CHAIRPERSON: It sounded like a lot. It's me; it's late in the day.
9958 MR. ENO: If I said 30, we can reduce that by 10
times. It is about 3 million visits.
9959 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So 3 million. That's a lot.
That's a huge number anyway.
9960 MR. ENO: It is a lot.
It is a lot.
9961 THE
CHAIRPERSON: It is a huge number. I'm sure you said 3 million. I thought it was a huge number; it is a huge
number.
9962 So that's visits
to festivals per year. Would that be the
statistic?
9963 MR. ENO: That's correct.
9964 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Very interesting.
9965 I notice you said
that you were intending to employ 28 people, and I'm wondering if you could
give me a breakdown of that.
9966 MR. ARNISH: We sure will.
9967 Mr. Siemens just
wanted to follow up on your question, and this is related to the music
programming and how we could differentiate our programming from other stations
or other groups that have applied for the market here as well.
9968 I think that's
important.
9969 MR. SIEMENS: Yes, well ‑‑
9970 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I think it's important,
too. I will jump ahead with you. Go ahead.
9971 MR. ARNISH: I'm sure you do, Madam Chair.
9972 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.
9973 MR. SIEMENS: I think first of all if we could compare our
application to Mr. Kay's application which you heard earlier morning, in their
presentation they played a video that highlighted some of their music, and I think
from the video you just heard a few minutes ago which highlighted some of our
music that there are dramatic differences between the two stations.
9974 I think that
probably comes from the fact that Mr. Kay's application is a specialty licence
with 30 per cent of the music coming from Category 3.
9975 So I think that
those two applications are quite, quite different.
9976 With regard to the
CTV and CHUM application, which they positioned as an Essential Alternative,
their music mix would be 40 per cent current and 60 per cent gold, whereas our
music mix is precisely inverse to that.
We are 60 per cent current and re‑current and 40 per cent gold.
9977 With regard to the
other two applications from Harvard and Evanov for AAA stations, one called
Jen, the other Emily, respectively, I think those stations are targeted almost
exclusively at women whereas we see our station having a skew towards women and
being female friendly, but for the most part it will be targeted both at men
and women.
9978 It was interesting
last week we had an exercise amongst ourselves, our team here, to determine how
we could differentiate our radio station from the other applicants and also
from the other operations that are already on the air in Edmonton.
9979 The exercise was
to try to describe The River in one word.
And just a few of the words we came up with that we think differentiate
our application. Edmonton, local, real,
honest, cool, clever, smart, tech savvy, connected, not boring, less hype or no
hype, definitely green, respect for both the music and for our listeners,
innovative, supports local music, unpredictable in a positive way, a female
friendly Rock station and, perhaps most important, successful.
9980 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I might come back with some more questions on
the format in a second.
9981 Just to go back to
the number of employees, 28 you said overall.
9982 Can I get the
breakdown, how that will...?
9983 MR. SIEMENS: Certainly, Madam Chair. We have of course a General Manager, and that
person will be assisted by an Executive Assistant who will double as a Traffic
Manager. We will have a Technical
Director on site. We will have a Program
Manager who will also double as a Music Director, a morning show host and
cohost, two fulltime announcers and four part‑time announcers, a
commercial producer and two copywriters, an arts reporter and coordinator, who
we hope will be the young lady sitting in the back row, Amanda. There will be a Features Producer, a News
Director, who will also double as the morning reader and two other news
readers. There will be a Sales
Manager. The Sales Manager will likely
require a Sales Assistant. And we see
ourselves starting with five Account Executives on the street and one
Promotions Director.
9984 MR. ARNISH: If I can just add to that as well, Madam
Chair, we think that the format and the spoken word that we have proposed here
for Edmonton is unique and brings diversity to marketplace.
9985 And being the
regional broadcast group that we are here in western Canada, again that is
bringing another new diverse voice to the marketplace and perhaps we can talk
about that later on.
9986 But the one
commitment that we have made as well, and we feel this is very important in our
group, is the makeup of Canada and the way it is changing with cultural
diversity. We made a commitment in our
application that 50 per cent of the 28 new hires would be from the four
designated groups, and we are prepared to follow through on that commitment.
9987 We think that is
very important, particularly in the Edmonton market area where we know there is
a very diversified group of citizens that live here and, you know, raise a
family and work in this community.
9988 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I'm just wondering
specifically for newsroom, since I couldn't write as fast as you could dictate,
but specifically newsroom staff and handling all your spoken word programming,
how many people and what is the sort of a structure there?
9989 MS DOOBAY: We are looking at five fulltime news staff in
the newsroom and that is the breakdown of the News Director, the two news
readers who are also reader/reporters, the arts reporter and the features
producer.
9990 THE
CHAIRPERSON: They will handle all of
your spoken word programming?
9991 MS DOOBAY: All of the spoken word would be handled internally,
yes.
9992 THE
CHAIRPERSON: How will the spoken word
programming differ from Harvard and Evanov, for example, who are also, as you
mentioned, targeting female audience?
9993 MS DOOBAY: In mining the other applications for as much
information as I could garner, Jeff had the research and we were talking about
it earlier.
9994 Traffic and
weather by far were providing the most of the four AAA applications. Ninety per cent of the people that asked,
over 90 per cent said that was the key information that they wanted for the
day. I am The River listener. I am exactly the target audience, and I can
tell you those two things are going to make or break my day.
9995 So we know that
over and above the core news, those two things are consistently going to be
provided in our radio station.
9996 Our staffing
appears to be the highest at five fulltime staff of the four applicants for
AAA. As far as I could garner from the
applications, we are the only station providing direct editorial comment voice
Monday to Friday, twice a day, five different editorial voices and the
opportunity for Edmonton people to speak up and do their own editorials.
9997 So we would like
to be a conduit for the marketplace.
9998 MR. ARNISH: If I may just add to that, the difference
that I just touched on a little bit ago was the arts programming. There is no incumbent that is proposing arts
programming, and Amanda might want to jump in on this as well.
9999 That is a big
difference from incumbents and applicants.
10000 THE CHAIRPERSON: Neither are proposing arts programming?
10001 MR. ARNISH: That's correct.
10002 Amanda...?
10003 MS PATRICK: I found in my research that Edmonton radio
stations really, there just isn't the coverage out there that Edmonton
needs. We are known as The Festival
City, but we are so much more than that.
10004 We were recognized
in 2007 as Canada's Cultural Capital and that is because Edmontonians love
their arts; they love their theatre; they love their festivals.
10005 Now, there are
festivals such as The Fringe Festival, The Heritage Festival, the Folk
Festival. These are huge and they get
their media; they get their radio time.
But then there are things like Aboriginal Day which is not just a day,
it is actually a full week with drummers, performers, dancers and it is really
a great celebration that people just don't know about.
10006 Someone like
myself, for instance, I have four young children, would love to be able to take
my children out and let them see the kinds of arts and cultures that I got to
grow up learning about and seeing.
10007 Even this week
there is the 25th production, it is ELOPE's 25th anniversary production of
Baby. It is a musical comedy and it is
playing currently at the Westbury Theatre.
That is something that just would never get airtime right now in
Edmonton, and I would personally have loved to be able to go behind those
scenes with those directors, with those actors, with the producers and get
their word out. They are so excited.
10008 I spoke with one
person, Martin Galba, from the Alliance of Community Theatre and Artists, and
he literally said to me ‑‑ and I'm quoting him. He said, "This couldn't come at a better
time. It's like a dream come true",
because no other radio stations are offering or as committed or as personal as
what The River is offering in Edmonton when it comes to the arts.
10009 I am excited about
it. They are excited about it and it is
going to be really great.
10010 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I can see that you are
excited, and not nervous I might add, too.
10011 We had a little
conversation earlier for a split second.
10012 I'm just wondering
on the news now, you probably listened to the Rogers application. Do you think if they were approved it would
affect your approach to news, because theirs is going to be that quick pop
in/pop out I guess type of approach?
10013 MR. ARNISH: No. We
respect and appreciate what Rogers is presenting here in Edmonton. They do a very good job with news and
information without question.
10014 No, it wouldn't
have any impact on our news‑gathering resources or how we present it.
10015 I will have Jasmin
talk about that in a moment.
10016 I think the one
point that we would like to make this afternoon as well is I think by allowing
the Pattison Group to bring a new diverse voice into the Edmonton market is
good for many reasons, but one important one is the fact that we have nine
other radio stations throughout the Province of Alberta, in Grande Prairie and
Rocky Mountain House, Drayton Valley, Alberta, two of the smallest markets in
Canada; Red Deer, Lethbridge and Medicine Hat.
10017 Jasmin, maybe you
can talk about how important this licence would be in Edmonton to also help
support our regional stations here in the Province of Alberta.
10018 MS DOOBAY: I had an opportunity last week to talk to all
the news directors in the different stations.
There are nine Pattison radio stations in Alberta covering seven small
and medium markets and said what would Edmonton mean to you? It just opens up so many opportunities for
Western Canadian broadcasting, diversity of content, our ability to get so much
information out to the listeners, what they want to know, diversity of voices
with our editorial content.
10019 Sharing of
information and access to the legislature, the capital here, there are
currently nine local MLAs in six of the markets that have Pattison
stations. If we got Edmonton that would
be another 18. That is access to people
directly.
10020 When things are
happening in the capital, the smaller markets want to know how is that going to
affect us. Well, our current only way to
get that information is through the Canadian Press and that doesn't necessarily
happen quickly, nor does it happen specifically to the market that you are from.
10021 Well, if we had an
Edmonton station here with news, we are there, we cover it, we get it back to
Drayton Valley or Rocky Mountain House as quickly as possible.
10022 We also have three
MPs in three Pattison markets right now, and if we got Edmonton as well that
would be eight. Again, it is access to
information that flows from the small to the medium to the large market and
from the large market back down to the small market.
10023 Now, when those
MLAs and MPs go home to their communities, Pattison radio stations have an
excellent, excellent relationship with our local politicians that we can phone
them at home and when something does happen across the country, we can get
their comment and we can get that information both to our local community and
back to the Edmonton market as quickly as possible.
10024 Access to the
court system. Major legal stories or
cases tend to go to the larger markets are the major markets and sometimes the
follow‑up from, say, a murder case in Drayton Valley ‑‑
I hate to put it that way ‑‑ but if there was something at
that level, access to that court information is just key for getting it back to
the local level.
10025 And also having
experts, experts tend to gather in large markets. So if we have an Edmonton access to experts
that we need to get in contact with to get comment that we can bring back to
the local market, it is just such a great flow of information in both
directions for us.
10026 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, today how do you
share information between your Alberta stations?
10027 MS DOOBAY: Only in one particular market right now are
they sharing and it is just through technology basically. There is just the sharing of
information. If you know that there is a
car accident in your community and the person was from another community, you
get in contact with their newsroom or you quickly e‑mail them the story
and say hey, you guys might want to follow up on this because it is somebody
from your community.
10028 So it is a casual
sharing information base right now. We
are potentially looking at technologies to make a little easier for all of us
to share information quickly.
10029 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So will a lot of that
information that might come from Rocky Mountain House, for example, or Drayton
Valley, be of interest? Would there be
interest there coming the other way, interest to people in Edmonton?
10030 MS DOOBAY: There may be.
10031 THE
CHAIRPERSON: You are thinking if
you ‑‑
10032 MS DOOBAY: Again, if somebody from Edmonton was
vacationing in Rocky Mountain House and there was accident, we would want to
get that information back to Edmonton as quickly as possible because we know
families spread out. They move to small
and medium markets and then they move back to the large market. Families get spread out.
10033 So not every
story ‑‑ the school board information coming from Rocky
Mountain House isn't going to be of interest to the Edmonton market, but some
stories absolutely would be.
10034 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So you will have a
more ‑‑ sorry.
10035 MR. ARNISH: No. I
was just going to say, but if you take Rocky Mountain House or Drayton Valley,
for example, one big story would be if there was a new find of oil or natural
gas in those particular areas. Obviously
for Edmonton and the whole province ‑‑
10036 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Hopefully that's weekly.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
10037 MR. ARNISH: That's true.
That would be very good.
10038 We do a lot of
story sharing with our stations in British Columbia and we have our stations in
Victoria, the capital of British Columbia, and that helps our stations, too, if
we have to get to MLAs in Victoria and get feedback and stories that may be
impacting the markets that we have licences in British Columbia.
10039 The same would
apply here in the Edmonton market as well.
10040 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So it will be a more
structured format. You mentioned five
people for news.
10041 MS DOOBAY: Yes.
10042 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Does that include that
portion of your news operation that would be sharing or be responsible for
facilitating the sharing of news stories?
10043 MS DOOBAY: Every news story that you create as a
newsperson has the ability to be shared out, but those five people are focused
on the local Edmonton market and they have the ability to quickly share the
information with the technology of e‑mail to get it to the markets that
need it.
10044 MR. ARNISH: And I think just to complement that, we have
22 new dedicated news personnel in the Province of Alberta in these other nine
stations, which is an awful lot. I probably
say that because we are very committed to being local, local, local in all our
markets. We don't centralize any news in
British Columbia or Alberta. We are very
big in our group not to centralize news information or even doing voice
tracking.
10045 We are a firm
believer that we have a licence in the markets that we are licensed in and that
we are there to serve those local markets and we just don't centralize. We just don't believe in it. We think it is very important to be local.
10046 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I had read that in your
submission and that was the impression I had.
10047 So this would be
just like an inventory of news items for day or maybe somebody in Edmonton
would think this would be of interest to Medicine Hat and would ship it off or
would they ‑‑
10048 MR. ARNISH: Well, I think there certainly would ‑‑
I mean, the dedicated news staff here would be for The River in Edmonton
without question.
10049 But certainly with
our markets where we have a lot of news people, there would be the
interactivity between our newsroom in Edmonton and those stations of saying
okay, what is going on in Red Deer for example today, or what is going on in
Grande Prairie? Are Grande Prairie
getting hold of our newsroom here in Edmonton to say Premier Stelmach is coming
up to Grande Prairie here, could you get a voicer with him or an actuality with
him and what he is going to be talking about that is going to impact our
economy in the city of Grande Prairie.
10050 So I think there
is a great opportunity there to really expand on that.
10051 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
10052 Since you jumped
ahead a bit on me on the music format, I want to make sure I don't forget
anything.
10053 I know I did want
to know what you would see as the similarities and differences between the
current formats in the market Rogers, CHDI‑FM, which is Alternative
Modern Rock, and CTV's CHR format?
10054 MR. SIEMENS: I may ask Mr. Vidler to make a comment on
this.
10055 We see the SONiC
as being more of a modern rock radio station.
It has a harder edge than The River will have, and it targets a younger
audience that is more male.
10056 With regard to The
Bounce, it definitely targets a younger audience. It is more into a CHR catalog of music. It is very current and I don't think that we
would share that many listeners with them.
10057 But Jeff, you may
want to comment further on the Chairperson's comment.
10058 MR. VIDLER: Again just looking back at the research, the
potential weekly reach listeners that are identified in the research, what they
listen to now in terms of what the impact might be on listening, it really is
spread across the radio dial, which really reflects the fact that this format
doesn't really reflect what is in the market now.
10059 Joe FM, Bounce,
The Bear, SONiC‑FM, KROC, EZ Rock, all between seven and 10 per cent or
seven and 13 per cent of the potential weekly reach listeners identified one of
those stations as being their current favourite.
10060 And when we
presented the format ‑‑ and when we presented the format we
presented a description of the format as well as playing a format montage, ask
them if they were interested in the format and then say is there anybody in
Edmonton currently doing a good job of delivering this format?
10061 More than two‑thirds
of the market said nobody, couldn't identify a single station, which again goes
back to that it really is a distinct format from any other specific station or
really any of the stations in general.
10062 MR. ENO: I would like to add one more difference into
that, is that what we proposed in our application is 60 per cent new and 40 per
cent old or 60 per cent within two years and 40 per cent older than two years.
10063 What that means in
the market is that that presents ‑‑ putting an emphasis on the
music sets The River apart in the market because behind The Bounce ‑‑
our 60 per cent is behind The Bounce, which is 76 new music, 76 per cent, and
ahead of The Bear, which is 42 per cent in a recent analysis of the market.
10064 In gold music we
have the second lowest percentage at 40 per cent compared to The Bounce at
23. So The Bounce is very, very new and
very little gold, and we would fall in right behind them as far as that new and
gold ratio goes.
10065 THE
CHAIRPERSON: What per cent of your
playlist would you calculate as currently being played in the market?
‑‑‑ Pause
10066 MR. ENO: Well, without scheduling a month of playlists
to really be accurate on it and compare it with the two sources of BDS and
Mediabase, it's a moving target. So it's
really speculation on my part what it might be.
10067 But looking at a
sample universe, it could be about 25 to 30 per cent which would be
duplication. That includes single spin
titles as well, where one station might play one song and we might play the
same song within a month; it might even be within a week.
10068 The other aspect
of that is that we don't have full control of our duplication in the market
because we would play what we want to play to make sure we have the type of
texture on the radio station and the mix of new and unique titles that we want.
10069 So in order to be
unique in Edmonton our goal is to have as little duplication as possible, but
again, that is not all in our control and, as well, some of the music we play
will be played on other radio stations.
10070 MR. SIEMENS: Yes, that's true, but I think that the
important thing, and one of the other applicants pointed it out this morning,
is while we may play 20 per cent to 25 per cent music that is already being
exposed in the market, when you make a comment like that you have to realize
that one station ‑‑ SONiC might play one song and then another
station, it might even be Majic might play another song and then you would have
the EZ Rock might play two. So you can
get that percentage of duplication up there.
10071 But our case would
be that there is not any one station in Edmonton that plays all of this music
collectively. I think that is really an
important point.
10072 THE
CHAIRPERSON: That's a good
clarification. Thank you, yes.
10073 I just want to
talk about Category 3 music because you do mention it in your submission. But you do make a point of ‑‑
I think I understood you to say that that was a differentiating factor earlier.
10074 So I'm just
wondering how many hours do you intend to devote to Category 3 music in a
broadcast week, that is? If you can also
break it down by Folk and World Beat and International and Jazz and Blues, that
would be helpful as well.
10075 MR. ENO: The nature of the AAA format includes
selections that would, by interpretation, fall under subcategories 32, 33 and
34 of the special interest music. On The
River, most of the special interest music will be found in the thematic music
programs which we haven't talked about yet, but there are a number of them that
would include those categories.
10076 Basement Suite,
Border Crossings, Late Night Show would contain some music that could be
considered subcategories 32, 33 and 34.
10077 A weekly analysis
is about 6 per cent, which is about 3 per cent throughout the week and 3 per
cent on the special programs.
10078 But the music that
fits on AAA, you know, it is an evolution that evolves, emerges, it is
different styles of music that may fall into a definition, may not fall into a
definition. To keep our music choices
flexible and keep the radio station competitive, we decided to apply for a
Category 2 licence regardless of how much special interest music we may play at
any given time.
10079 Now, that doesn't
preclude that special interest music wouldn't have a part of the feel of The
River, because our commitment to support Folk and World and International music
does exist, and this might be an opportunity to touch upon our CCD, our
Canadian Content Development initiative of $350,000 commitment to the Edmonton
Folk Music Festival.
10080 MR. SIEMENS: Yes. Our arrangement with the Folk Music Festival
would include the production of live concerts from the Festival or at least
live to tape and they would perhaps be packaged and broadcast later.
10081 So that is where
you get some element of the Category 3 music, but it will be a relatively small
part of the radio station.
10082 THE
CHAIRPERSON: As I'm hearing, you want
the flexibility to program the way you want.
You don't want a condition of licence specifically addressing Category 3
music for that reason?
10083 MR. SIEMEN: Yes, that is exactly right. We talked about it, but we don't feel ‑‑
that is certainly not going to be the make‑up of the music station. It definitely is going to be a Category 2.
10084 It's like any
format, you can play Country and you can play some Rock, too, on Country
because that is sort of considered Country nowadays, depending on the artist
and the song. I think that is basically
what we're talking about here.
10085 There is going to
be a little bit of overlap, but it is going to be very small.
10086 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. That clarifies that for me. Thank you.
10087 I just wanted to
talk now about the economics of the market.
It looks like there are six stations right now drawing on the 35‑plus
female demographic.
10088 So I'm just
wondering, given that your proposed station will be highly competitive with
these formats, what elements of your proposal will make it more compelling for
those women to modify their current listening habits and tune to The River?
10089 MR. SIEMENS: Well, I think we touched on some of those
things earlier. The music we think, our
attitude, which will be mature with very little hype. We will talk to them as friends and not as
radio announcers. I think that those
things are important, the content. All
of those things will make us attractive to women, I think.
10090 MR. VIDLER: It goes back again to the research and really
looking at what makes this audience different from other 18‑to‑54
year olds and serving that psychographic, if you like, because there are other
radio stations that do target 35‑plus females, but they speak to them in
a totally different way and to a totally different set of sensibilities than
one The River is proposing.
10091 MR. SIEMENS: You know, I think that we have identified
that the narrow target audience is 35‑to‑44. The mean age, though, is probably around 37
years of age. That person was born in
1971; they graduated high school 1989.
So the prime music years for that person when there are 15‑to‑24,
between 1986 and 1995. We know that
their parents are 58 to 75 years old; they are baby boomers. We know that they likely graduated college;
they are employed in a career.
10092 We know that more
and more of these people grew up in Edmonton, but also many moved here in the
last 10 years as a result of Alberta's economic boom.
10093 We know they are
tech savvy; they are heavy Internet and mobile phone users. They might have kids, they might not but they
are probably thinking about it. They are
environmentally conscious. They are
sceptical of hype and advertising claims.
They can detect nonsense real easily.
They are used to being sold to so, as such, it is harder to market to
them.
10094 I think we
understand them very, very well. And if
we can take all of that and incorporate that into the 10 or 12 one‑word
snappy answers I gave you earlier, we will have a station that will very
definitely be the Rock the female Rock listener will be comfortable with.
10095 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I think I know your answer
to my next question: Do you anticipate
any problems in reaching your audience shares or would you describe those as
conservative?
10096 MR. ARNISH: We have a good feeling about The River
project here in Edmonton. It's not
dissimilar to The Peak in Vancouver.
When we looked at what the market wanted to have when we did our
research in Vancouver, it was clearly defined that AAA format in Vancouver
would be very, very successful.
10097 We did the same
type of research here in Edmonton, as you have heard Mr. Vidler and Mr. Siemens
and Eno talk about us well, and we feel very comfortable with the demographics
that we are going after and the audience share that will be generated from that
as well.
10098 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I see from your forecast
you are showing considerable losses out into year four.
10099 If the losses were
worse than you are forecasting, would that present a problem? Are you prepared to inject additional funds?
10100 MR. ARNISH: Yes, we are.
A short answer to that question, Madam Chair, without question. Being a regional broadcast group ‑‑
I think this is very important that we talk about this at this juncture in
time.
10101 You know, we look
at it as well that the Edmonton market with the number of players that are here
now, it is a very, very competitive market, as is Vancouver and a lot of media
markets are very competitive as well, even if there are four or five stations
in them. But I think for someone to come
into Edmonton and bring a new diverse voice into the Edmonton market, you are
going to have to be prepared to be in it for the long haul.
10102 The other stations
aren't going to roll over in the market.
They are going to make it even tougher for new entrants coming into this
market.
10103 But we do strongly
believe that we have the format. We
certainly have the history of people on this panel that have worked in this
market and we know the market very, very well; we know the region.
10104 If our business
plan is such that in years five and six we are still continuing with losses, I
will be surprised. But if they are, we
will certainly continue to follow through on our commitments without
question. I mean, we are in this
business for the long haul. We have had
success in other areas throughout B.C. and Alberta, and we really would like to
have a major market station in the province of Alberta for all the reasons we
have talked about today, and I won't repeat those right now.
10105 You know, when we
went out into the marketplace and came into the market, we just didn't do it by
telephone. When the call came for
Edmonton we sent to team here to Edmonton.
We were on the street for a number of days. We went and talked to the city. We talked to the community at large. We talked of potential listeners. We talked to advertisers, the advertising
agency, but more importantly talked to the local advertising community about
the marketplace, what we were proposing and if they were prepared to support a
AAA format like we were proposing for Edmonton.
10106 The rock solid
answer to that was ‑‑ and if you want us to expand on it, we
certainly would ‑‑ was yes, we certainly would support your
application for Edmonton.
10107 In fact, we did
get a lot of letters of support from the business community for what we are
proposing here.
10108 Maybe I'll just
have Mr. Davis and Mr. Bowman give you some details on that because I think it
is significantly important to let you know that when we put a business plan
together we do do it conservatively. We
don't have any pie‑in‑the‑sky thinking. We have 200 years of experience around this
table in front of you today and a lot of knowledge, so when we put the business
plan today we do put it together with the idea that in the long term it will
work.
10109 We are going to
have to take some hits to begin with, but it will work in the long term.
10110 Bruce...?
10111 MR. DAVIS: Sure.
Madam Chair, if I may go into some detail about how to we actually put
the business plan together, the whole linchpin of our plan moving forward is
with Jeff's research. Solutions Research
is a preeminent research company in Canada and we are very, very confident and
comfortable with their numbers.
10112 We know that
approaching maturity we should reach a five share with this radio station. We know we are not going to come out of the
blocks at a five share so we do some reverse engineering to get back to where
we think is an achievable and realistic starting point.
10113 Then that gives us
the number because we know where the market is.
10114 We also look at
what we can expect with share of hours in the market that we can garner and,
again, know that we're not going to come out of the blocks with that; and look
at the viable market.
10115 We also have a
look at, kind of check things that triangulate from three different ways, if
you will. We look at what we can expect
to be able to charge for rates and then forecast our sellouts moving forward as
well. If all of those three tests, if
you will, line up, then we know that we have a viable plan, which is great in
theory and the math works ‑‑ and salespeople are terrible at
math; don't ask me the math questions.
I'm not allowed to answer them.
10116 But if the math
works, we know we are in good shape.
10117 But again, the
theory is there. So what we did is went
right out into the marketplace and spent a lot of time explaining to
advertisers our vision of the station and what the listeners ‑‑
the product that we sell to them are the listeners and what the product would
be that we would sell to them.
10118 We had tremendous
feedback and a lot of support from them.
10119 We got Mike to do
the interviews, if you will, for us and he got 35 letters of support.
10120 I will maybe get
Mike to walk through the categories that we talk to, if that's okay.
10121 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Sure.
10122 MR. BOWMAN: Thanks, Bruce.
10123 The target market
and income profile that was suggested by the research, it proposes a highly
desirable consumer group. So when we
were justifying the business plan, Bruce indicated there was a couple of
benchmarks that we use.
10124 Certainly the
share indicated, which gives you your rough idea, but I think more importantly,
and certainly with my experience in launching a new FM radio station in this
market being quite close to the local advertising community, it was important
that we went to the street to get a good optic of opportunity and revenue
opportunity, because when you launch a new radio station that is where you're
going to make or break it. It is going
to be on the local street level.
10125 So when we presented
this desirable group kind of in the context of our proposed station to the body
of the businesses and advertises that we directly spoke to, it became clear
that there were three kind of classifications of revenue streams that we could
count on to achieve our business plan.
10126 So I am going to
go through those categories and give you some actual examples of businesses
that fall into those.
10127 So the first
classification was going to be businesses that would increase their advertising
budget to include radio. So we consider
that in radio world as new advertisers.
10128 So some of the
categories that I spoke to, the recruitment category, the robust nature of our
economy continues to present that category as something emerging in radio. It has been quite strong over the last few
years and continues to be strong as more people and more companies are looking
to recruit good people.
10129 We spoke to the
industrial companies, transportation companies like Ocean Trailer, like Land‑Trans
Systems. These companies are looking for
administrative people; they're looking for technical salespeople.
10130 We talked to some
professional companies like lawyers, Patrick Dauphin Professional Corporation,
to property managers and real estate companies looking for administrative help,
Davies Property Management.
10131 Production
services. Edmonton is a growing location
for some new big‑budget production efforts so companies are looking to
recruit some of that type of potential workers into their companies and Frame
30 Productions is very active in Edmonton in doing that.
10132 In fact, Edmonton
is just premiering this Thursday a new NBC Lionsgate production of a series
that was shot in Edmonton for NBC.
10133 Cosmetic
procedures. We talked to dental clinics,
Boileau Dental Service. Apparently our
listeners are in need of veneers.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
10134 MR. BOWMAN: External Affairs, companies that are into
body sculpting. They expressed a desire
to this type of audience that we are going to be speaking to and they have not
used radio before. Tijuana Tan, our
audience apparently needs to get bronzed as well.
10135 So those are some
local companies.
10136 Government, both
municipal, provincial and federal, in terms of some of the support for their
eco programs, for their arts programs that they support, because of our spoken
word components and the efforts we are going to make in that regard, they have
expressed interest and excitement about the ability to market to this audience
to further their causes.
10137 Auto appearance
services, Ming Shine Company, keeping vehicles clean. Our audience drives vehicles, and nice
vehicles, and they want to keep them shiny.
10138 SMART Program is a
new Canadian company here in Edmonton that we spoke to that is interested in
this audience.
10139 Boutique
advertisers. That I think is an
important aspect. These are locally
owned advertising agencies that do lots of marketing for small local companies
that heretofore don't necessarily use radio because of the nature of their
clients being focused.
10140 We spoke to
Propellant Marketing, a local Edmonton owned company. We spoke to Bonny Lafachinski(ph) Consulting.
10141 We spoke to The
Met Agency and they were thrilled with the opportunity that The River was going
to present in terms of this type of consumer group and what it might mean to
some of their advertisers.
10142 The publishing
business, we have some local publishing companies that see the benefit of our
new radio station, Michael Creighton Productions.
10143 The second category
that we had identified are those companies that are going to redirect dollars
from other media, mainly print, to include radio. Some would call that new advertiser, but they
are currently active in mass media.
10144 Some of those
categories that we spoke to were developers.
Edmonton's real estate market, unlike perhaps some other regions of the
country, remains pretty buoyant with lots of new projects, as you can see
cranes in the downtown core as an indicator of what is happening in our real
estate market.
10145 So developers, big
local developers like Rowitt Developments, Carrington Properties, Bedrock Homes
who see this audience that The River is going to deliver is right in their
wheelhouse to divert money from their extensive print budgets.
10146 Motor sports and
leisure companies that are selling luxury items like jet skis and quads. Alberta Cycle Motorsports was thrilled to
hear of this type of audience and this focus of this radio station.
10147 Travel
services. Many of our type of audience
are going to be ‑‑ are interested in high‑end travel and
cruises and Newwest Travel is a very prominent player in Edmonton that we spoke
to that sees this as a very valuable market for them to attract.
10148 The arts and
cultural community. You know, along with
them being beneficiaries of the efforts that we will employ with our spoken
word and our coverage, they also are advertisers because they contribute and
look to spend some of their small dollars on stations that are supporting them.
10149 To that end, the
Edmonton International Film Festival is very thrilled with what we are
proposing in coverage of the arts; likewise with the Folk Music Festival, the
Fringe Festival, and the like.
10150 The third category
that we identified are going to be those advertisers that expand their existing
radio budgets to access this audience that The River is going to provide.
10151 To that end, auto
dealers of course are a great source of ad revenue for radio stations on a
whole in this market. We spoke to five
different auto dealers that were excited about this audience, Alberta Honda,
West End Nissan, Great West Chrysler, Edmonton BMW and West Side Acura.
10152 We spoke to the
live music venues. We wanted to make
sure they understood what our project was, what our music focus was going to be
and our support of new and emerging talent.
10153 Of course, when
those individuals get support by a radio station, promoters bring that talent
into these venues and then they are expanding their advertising budgets.
10154 We spoke to Jet
Nightclub, the Shark Club, the Urban Lounge and they are all obviously thrilled
to be able to bring in some new musical talent and spend money to advertise on
our radio station.
10155 Clothing
companies, independent local retailers.
10156 I'm going on, yes,
it's lengthy.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
10157 MR. BOWMAN: But I think it underscores the fact that we
have done our homework in talking to this community and understanding that it
is local Edmonton business.
10158 Dirks Clothing, a
preeminent clothing company in Edmonton, was thrilled about our opportunity to
bring this type of audience to them.
10159 The music and
recording business. They spend money on
advertising to support new and unplayed artists. Universal Music, Sony, BMG, EMI, again have
expressed their keen supporter of us.
10160 Then there are the
businesses that support the musicians and support new artists, Axe Music, Long
and McQuade, Mother's Music. And that is
because of our nature of supporting new music, musicians tune into our radio
station and that creates a great business base for them.
10161 Promotions: Live Nation, Union Events, Investment
Financial Services, local Edmonton companies we spoke to, Foreman Consulting.
10162 Food and beverage
companies, Moxie's, Average Joe's, The Wok Box all see this audience and what
we can do for The River ‑‑ what The River will bring to them
is very viable.
10163 95 per cent of
these businesses I have mentioned we have letters of support for.
10164 Finally,
notwithstanding the typical nature of how radio stations generate revenue with
these 30‑second spot sales, the unique nature of our spoken word and our
music features create some great vertical revenue opportunities as well.
10165 You know, based on
this research and based on the available audience and based on what we have
done in market, my experience in launching new radio stations and being very in
touch with the local advertising community gives us high confidence in our
business plan and our business plan over the long term.
10166 MR. ARNISH: Thank you, Mike and Bruce.
10167 Madam Chair, just
to sum up, I think it's important ‑‑ I know it was a little
long but I think it was important to give you a real good overview of the fact
that we did hit the street and we did our due diligence here in Edmonton.
10168 We are not relying
on regional and national advertising for this new station to begin with. We are definitely going out to the local
marketplace. That is where the bulk of
the revenue is going to come.
10169 Yes, we have
projected losses out to year five, but we are in it for the long haul and we
believe the business plan will be achievable, if not better. If not, we will still be here and we will be
doing everything we can to make the station a viable part of the Edmonton community.
10170 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Would the everything you
can include cutting back on operating expenses, in particular programming
expenses?
10171 Do you ever
anticipate that happening?
10172 MR. ARNISH: No, we don't actually. We have lost a lot of money in Vancouver on
our AM station for many, many years. We
hope now with the conversion coming that we will get it on a level playing
field.
10173 And for many years
we lost money in Kelowna, believe it or not, to a lot of people. We lost lots and lots of money in that market
and we have done that in others. But we
have hung in there for the long haul. We
will do that ‑‑ I will give you my personal commitment on
that. We will do that here in Edmonton.
10174 We know the
station will work. We know the plan that
we have in front of you that we have presented to the CRTC is a very viable
opportunity for us ‑‑ I guess that's a good word ‑‑
and we will commit that going forward what you have in front of you today we
will continue to present here in Edmonton if we are privileged to receive a
licence now and in the long‑term future.
10175 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
10176 I would just be
interested in hearing your comment. I
read in your submission and I understood you to say here today that you believe
in local, local. So you're not looking
for synergies in your operations.
10177 I would just like
to know what it is that makes regional special?
10178 MR. ARNISH: Well, we do have synergies.
10179 That's an
excellent question. We do have synergies
certainly in perhaps a traffic function or an accounting function, engineering,
like other companies as well.
10180 I think to be a
regional player in the Province of Alberta and the Province of British
Columbia, there are lots of positives there that we bring to the table.
10181 In fact, just the
longevity of Mr. Pattison being in the broadcasting business since 1965 I
think speaks volumes of who we are what we stand for. He is not one to sell out, if I can use that
terminology. We are in here for the long
haul. He doesn't believe in selling
companies.
10182 From a regional
perspective, as well, I believe it does certainly give our team members ‑‑
and we have 520‑some‑odd people in the Jim Pattison Group in both
provinces ‑‑ the opportunity to grow in the broadcasting
industry. If we can help them grow,
maybe not with our company, but we certainly try to keep them. Having a station here in Edmonton will afford
a lot of people in our group, quite frankly, to have the opportunity to work
perhaps a major market.
10183 Whenever we have
job openings in our regional group, we post those jobs throughout all of our
stations and then the mandate from myself and others is the fact that we want
to promote people from within our own group.
10184 I think the
opportunity to share news and information is very important to a regional
group. Sales programming, promotion
functions, ideas on how we do things better, how can we better serve the
community.
10185 I mean, our
community record speak for itself, too, when we, you know, donate $12 million
in airtime, like lots of other broadcasters as well. I think the broadcasting community does a
great job in that area.
10186 But there are lots
of things as a regional group that we can do that in independent can't do, and
we are very proud of the fact that we have been able to grow this group over
the last numbers of years, the last 10 years in particular in both provinces.
10187 There may not seem
to be programming synergies because I go back to my point earlier that I am a
big believer ‑‑ and everybody around this table is a very big
believer ‑‑ that if you really want to follow what the
Broadcast Act is about ‑‑ and you heard Mr. Yerxa before us
talk about that ‑‑ being local and being in the local
marketplace doesn't mean that you should be centralizing and voicetracking from
a station in Vancouver to markets in the interior of British Columbia.
10188 The announcing
staff in those markets don't know those markets; our people, our team in those
markets know that.
10189 So I really do believe
that to be a regional company in western Canada is very important for the
system as a whole because, as you know, there are very few ‑‑
there are just a few national players left now and we are one of two or three
regional players.
10190 I think it is very
important to the system to have regional players in all parts of Canada from
coast to coast to coast.
10191 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I have a couple of
questions flowing out of your comments.
10192 The nine systems
existing in Alberta now, I assume that they get that back office support from
Vancouver, do they, or Victoria?
10193 MR. ARNISH: Absolutely.
And just so everyone knows, our headquarters are in Kamloops, British
Columbia. Our headquarters are not in
Vancouver, but we use the services of Vancouver, Victoria, Nanaimo.
10194 I mean, we are
like other groups as well. We get
together and have a programming and sales conference, as well, and we get all
the key people together from our team and strategize and share our ideas, as I
said earlier, on sales and promotions and programming and news and that as
well.
10195 So we definitely
share all the time, on a day to day, weekly and monthly basis, and annual basis
throughout our group all the time.
10196 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So a licence in Edmonton,
as far as being regional then, is going to give you another 28 heads to share
in thinking.
10197 MR. ARNISH: Absolutely, without question. And you heard us earlier ‑‑
and I don't want the be too redundant because I know time is marching on here
this afternoon.
10198 We are very
passionate about having a licence here in Edmonton. It is the capital. Like we said, we have a station in Victoria.
10199 But I think to be
able the hire 28 new people into this marketplace, and again give some people
in our group an opportunity to work in a major market, and also for us to be
able to go out and hire people in the four designated groups is very, very
important.
10200 I think the system
does need ‑‑ and I know the Commission recognizes this as
well ‑‑ strong regional players. I think it keeps everything on a level
playing field and it keeps everybody very competitive.
10201 THE
CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned your
commitment to 50 per cent of your hires will be visible minorities. That's what I understood from the four ‑‑
10202 MR. ARNISH: Yes, from the four designated group. Correct.
10203 THE
CHAIRPERSON: How will that be applied to
your management tier?
10204 MR. ARNISH: That's a good question and we haven't really
taken that into account because we haven't been awarded a licence in Edmonton,
but it is an excellent question.
10205 We are very
committed. We have just formulated a
brand new Employment Equity Policy that we rolled out to our entire group on
May 15th in Lethbridge at a divisional meeting that we were having there.
10206 We are very
committed to employment equity. We do
very well in a number of categories, particularly women and persons with
disabilities; a little tougher in some of our smaller markets for meeting the
requirements for aboriginal personnel.
10207 Certainly
diversity is very big in our group and we certainly would look at making sure
that women and other people from the three other designated groups play a key
role in the station here in Edmonton.
10208 I will give you my
personal commitment on that and we are committed around this table.
10209 THE
CHAIRPERSON: When I hear licensees
talking in terms of regional, you know that is an advantage, a selling point, I
just wonder, your comments focused on regional versus independents, but what
about regional versus the national players?
What is the advantage there?
10210 MR. ARNISH: Well, I guess our advantage is that we are
from western Canada. There are other
regional players, as you know, in other parts of the country. The national companies that are here in
Edmonton, with all due respect ‑‑ they are great competitors
and they are good friends as well ‑‑ most of them are
headquartered in central Canada.
10211 I think it is very
important to have regional broadcasting companies that know the marketplaces in
British Columbia and Alberta and Saskatchewan for that matter, that know the
marketplaces and can react to the marketplaces as well.
10212 I guess from a
regional perspective, I am not one that has total day‑to‑day hands‑on
management of our radio and television stations ‑‑ we have
three TV stations, as you know, as well.
All the general managers of our group have autonomy, lots of autonomy,
certainly very involved in the day‑to‑day activity. They are clearly the ones that make the day‑to‑day
decisions on those activities in the various marketplaces.
10213 I can't say that
perhaps from a national perspective. In
some cases decisions are made out of a head office that perhaps is in central
Canada. Nothing wrong with that; we just
don't believe in that. I am a big
believer in pushing it down into the marketplaces and letting the management
and our teams run our radio and television stations in those markets. They know what's going on.
10214 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I was interested in your comments just to
help me in my thinking. Thanks.
10215 MR. ARNISH: Thank you.
10216 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Now, with respect to
CCD ‑‑ and there are not many questions here that I have
left ‑‑ I just was curious to know on an ongoing basis what
steps you will take to ensure that the beneficiaries of your CCD contributions
continue to comply with the 2006 policy?
10217 MR. SIEMENS: I think that the big one of course is The
River Performance Project. We have had
very positive meetings with the Alberta Music Industry Association, Ms Kennedy
Jenson here in Edmonton, over the last six or seven months. I think we understand them very well and I
think they understand us well as well.
10218 They will be by
and large managing The River Performance Project, but they won't be doing it
completely hands‑off. We will have
a board that they will be accountable for, as to how they are spending the
money. That board will consist of course
of representatives from AMIA, also perhaps a local producer, music producer, perhaps
a local artist management, and of course someone from the radio station.
10219 But boy, I will
tell you, we are so excited about The River Performance Project because there
has been a fundamental shift in how music is produced in Canada and it has come
about very quickly due to some of the challenges that the record industry has
faced.
10220 And basically, put
simply, the ANR departments, the record companies going out and looking for new
talent, the record companies managing new talent, that has all gone away and it
has gone away really quickly and it has left a whole bunch of orphans here in
Edmonton in northern Alberta that are suddenly thrust into a situation where
they are not only making music but they are having to manage their own careers,
they are having to make their own webpages up, they are having to book their
own tours.
10221 You heard Jordan
Lee say on the video that he has to figure out a way to get his CDs into music
stores.
10222 So in all of that,
when we got into the music industry here in Edmonton we learned all of
that. So working with the Alberta Music
Industry Association, we developed this plan.
10223 The appetite we
have found for this plan has been so exciting.
10224 Perhaps Tamara can
talk to you about some of the people that she has met and what they are going
through here in Edmonton and then I will finish up with some thoughts.
10225 MS STANNERS: See, that will teach me never to put a candy
in my mouth at a hearing again. I took
it out.
10226 Well, coming from
Edmonton and being born and raised here, I understand the pride that
Edmontonians have in many things: the Oilers, the Eskimos and local music.
10227 Edmonton is very
different than other markets in that local artists do get some radio support,
but in limited formats and on a fairly limited basis. What we are proposing is something that is so
all encompassing. It offers not just
recording in a small amount for that, not just money; it offers a big picture
and it is really super exciting.
10228 I got to meet some
local artists in producing the video and they entertained me highly. They are very, very not just great performers
but great, great people.
10229 Myron Ord(ph), for
example, she was actually discovered on a radio contest about 10 years
ago. The format of the radio station has
since changed; the content is no longer exists.
But at that time she was getting radio airplay, was discovered by Sarah
McLachlan, picked up by Lilith Fair, and she was a kid. Like she was 17 years old and
unstoppable. Seriously, her career was
on fire.
10230 And just with the
changing face of radio the airplay disappeared.
It just doesn't happen any more.
10231 Ten years later
she is producing the best music of her life and there is not a single radio
station in Edmonton that will play her, which I think is really sad because she
is so good.
10232 The River will not
only play her, we will feature a lot of her, because she is so fantastic.
10233 There is another
performer, Jordan Lee who Gerry mentioned too.
He put out a fantastic disc just in the fall of 2007 and we just did
some research to find out that one of the songs had two spins in Edmonton in
2008, and yet a couple of months ago David Foster was in town, has a mutual
friends with Jordan Lee ‑‑ Jordan Lee is a very lucky young
man.
10234 David Foster heard
the CD, flew Jordan, two days after we did the interview with him for the
video, down to Las Vegas, took Jordan to his home in Los Angeles, started
working with him and now wants to produce two more songs with Jordan Lee, which
undoubtedly will get airplay somewhere.
10235 I know that if The
River were on the air, we would have been playing Jordan a long time ago.
10236 The River
Performance Project for artists like him, like Myran Ord, wouldn't just give
them airplay for a week or a month, but long term, and also gives them the
management knowledge that they really desperately need right now.
10237 I'm so excited
about this project.
10238 In conjunction
with the launching of the Vancouver station that we are just about to launch
and The Peak Performance Project there, we will actually have an opportunity to
have local musicians, local Western Canadian musicians, played in two of the
most important markets in Western Canada.
10239 I'm so excited
about it.
10240 MR. SIEMENS: Thank you for that, Tamara.
10241 To get back to
your original question, we have explained, I think, how we would keep our hands
on the control and make sure everyone is in compliance with the Alberta Music
Industry Association and The River Performance Project.
10242 With regard to
FACTOR, we have a letter as part of our application that is in the application,
how they will delegate the money out and make sure it goes to Alberta artists.
10243 We have a letter
on file with the Edmonton Folk Music Festival which specifies how they will use
the money and, simply stated, if they don't comply, they don't get the money.
10244 To make sure that
there is a final check in place, Mr. Dinicol files an annual report with the
CRTC where all this is laid out quite clearly.
10245 THE
CHAIRPERSON: On page 11 you
mention ‑‑ and I think I read that in your submissions as
well ‑‑ $210,000 of the $1.4 million will be designated for
use by aboriginal artists?
10246 MR. SIEMENS: Yes, Madam Chair.
10247 In the application
there is a letter from FACTOR dated January 3, 2008 and it confirms that the
$1.4 million will be handed out specifically as we have delegated, including
the money for the aboriginal artists here in northern Alberta.
10248 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I think I saw that FACTOR
letter, but would you mind giving us a copy of that by end of day tomorrow,
just so that we have it?
10249 MR. ARNISH: Yes, we will.
10250 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thanks.
10251 I'm just wondering
how many new licences you think this market could support, what comments you
would like to make on that.
10252 MR. ARNISH: We knew it was coming.
10253 THE
CHAIRPERSON: We are getting pretty
predictable.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
10254 MR. ARNISH: Absolutely.
Thank you very much.
10255 Well, that is a
very interesting question and we have been enamoured somewhat by some of the
responses so far for this marketplace.
We do know, along with a number of applicants that have appeared before
you already, that the economic powerhouse of Edmonton, Alberta is leading Canada's
economy right now.
10256 We know there was
a blip in 06 in the PBIT ratios in Edmonton and there has been a launch of some
new stations, and so on and so forth.
But all predictors are that the hub of northern Alberta, being Edmonton
with oil and natural gas, for example, is going to allow this economy to
continue to grow and grow and grow.
10257 So we feel quite
confident that the market certainly can support more than one new radio
station.
10258 In our research,
in our dialogue that we have had with our consulting engineers, DML,
potentially we believe there are five frequencies in the marketplace, four that
are relatively Class C1 frequencies, perhaps another one that is a little
questionable.
10259 We built our plan
on the 107.1 FM frequency targeted to our AAA audience. But there is also, as you have heard, 107.3
available in the marketplace; there is 102.3 and 95.7.
10260 We, talking with
DML, and Mr. Pelzer who would be willing to come forward and talk further with
the Commission about that if you so desire, feel that those four frequencies
will work here in Edmonton.
10261 As I said, the
107.1 is the one we would certainly like to achieve here at the end of the day.
10262 The 98.5 frequency
that is available, I am not a technical person but it is a little bit
questionable on the reach of that frequency.
But we do know for sure there are four frequencies and the marketplace
perhaps could support four new radio stations.
10263 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
10264 Your financial
projections, were they based on that assumption?
10265 MR. ARNISH: No, they weren't based on four. They were certainly based on at least two.
10266 We feel with the
research that we have done and what is going on with the economy here that our
business plan is supportable if you license more than two, three or upwards of
four new radio stations.
10267 THE
CHAIRPERSON: All right. Thank you very much.
10268 I will just ask
you of the competing applications which ones you would consider the most
competitive and which the least competitive?
10269 MR. ARNISH: Well, certainly the other applicants for AAA
would be the most competitive applications for our AAA format. The ones that I think would be less injurious
to our application would be the ethnic applicants, the specialty applicants,
perhaps the Rogers all news application, and I would even say the Yerxa
application as well, because that application is going after a different
audience as well.
10270 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you very much.
10271 Commissioner Cugini
has some questions for you.
10272 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Good afternoon, and only two so
we won't keep you here much longer.
10273 Mr. Arnish, when
you said four, did you mean four commercial FM stations in the market?
10274 MR. ARNISH: Well, I guess I'm saying four, whether they
are ethnic or whether they are four commercial.
I think we have to leave that to the Commission to decide at the end of
the day.
10275 I think the
marketplace, whether they are a mixture of that or whether they are four straight
commercial radio stations, the market in the future, maybe not for the first
couple of years, will be able to totally support that.
10276 I am just giving
you my theory on that.
10277 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: It is the only one you can count
on.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
10278 MR. ARNISH: Yes.
But certainly a specialty or a news talk station of some sort would have
less impact on our format and our station.
10279 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Just one minor housekeeping
question.
10280 I don't remember
who said it, when the Chairperson asked about Jazz and Blues ‑‑
that is subcategory 34 ‑‑ they didn't want to accept a COL
that 6 per cent of your playlist would be from that category to allow you for
more flexibility.
10281 MR. ARNISH: Well, if it is 6 per cent, then we certainly
would accept that as a COL. We don't
believe it is going to be any more than that.
10282 But as we have
talked, we certainly have made commitments to 40 per cent Canadian content and
there are commitments to emerging Canadian talent.
10283 We just don't
think there is going to be a huge overflow of specialty Category 3 music.
10284 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: But my question was going to
be. Obviously the Commercial Radio
Policy hasn't come into effect as of yet, so we are looking for a temporary
commitment from you that whatever level of Jazz and Blues that you do play on
this station, 20 per cent of it will be Canadian.
10285 And you will
accept that as a condition of licence?
10286 MR. ARNISH: Yes.
10287 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you very much.
10288 Thank you, Madam
Chair.
10289 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Legal...? No? Okay.
I guess we exhausted everything.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
10290 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So this is your two
minutes, Mr. Pattison, to sum up ‑‑ Mr. Pattison.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
10291 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr. Arnish, you have
been elevated. Sorry.
10292 MR. ARNISH: Thank you, Madam Chair and Members of the
Commission and Commission staff.
10293 We truly do
appreciate the opportunity to summarize why we believe the Pattison Broadcast
Group application is the best choice for Edmonton.
10294 Approval of our
application will:
10295 One, result in $7
million in direct benefits targeted primarily to emerging artists and
Aboriginal Voices Radio. A further
$5,250,000 in indirect benefits will be provided over the licence term.
10296 Two, add a new AAA
FM format to Edmonton which will air 40 per cent Canadian content and 15 per
cent emerging artists, including 37.5 per cent of Canadian selections. It will contribute to diversity by adding
both a new format and a new and independent voice in the market.
10297 Three, create 28
new jobs in the broadcasting industry in Edmonton.
10298 Four, provide 23
hours and 43 minutes weekly of innovative spoken word programming in the market
from a Western Canadian‑based company, which has invested heavily in
small market stations throughout Alberta.
A new Edmonton‑based editorial voice will be created to support
that regional investment.
10299 Five, lastly,
Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, in assessing the public interest and
reviewing the applications before you, we would highlight that there is a
strong public support for approval of our application in Edmonton from across
Alberta and British Columbia.
10300 Those letters
provide clear evidence that in licensing your application you will be licensing
a strong community‑focused broadcasting company that can materially
improve radio service in Alberta and, most particularly, in Edmonton.
10301 These letters also
emphasize the importance of strong regional players which can compete
successfully with dominant national players.
Some of our supporters include members of both the B.C. and Alberta
Legislative Assemblies, as well as Mayors of communities from across both
provinces, who wrote letters of support encouraging the Commission to expand
our news and information coverage into Edmonton.
10302 Aboriginal groups,
local, regional and national, have supported our application for its support of
AVR and aboriginal programming, including the National Indian Brotherhood and
the Institute of the Advancement of Aboriginal Women.
10303 Artists, as well
as artist representatives, have shown strong support for our application.
10304 Not‑for‑profit
organization such as The Canadian Blood Services, Canadian Mental Health
Association, the Canadian Cancer Society, the AMS Society of Canada, MADD, the
Edmonton International Film Festival, Event Alberta and Variety, the Children's
Charity, have all recognized the public interest benefit of licensing the
Pattison Broadcast Group in Edmonton.
10305 Madam Chair and
Members of the Commission, something I am very proud of. Last Friday evening in Vancouver the Jim
Pattison Broadcast Group was recognized by the Variety Club International, the
Children's Charity, with the prestigious International Media Award in
recognition of our exemplary level of community service we provide in the
markets we serve.
10306 We and our
supporters hope you will grant us the opportunity to bring this well‑established
level of community service to the community of Edmonton.
10307 Thank you and
evening.
10308 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Pattison. Mr. Pattison, here I
go again.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
10309 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Arnish and your team.
10310 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: You are in trouble.
10311 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Bad day.
10312 Thank you.
10313 So we will
reconvene tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.
Thank you very much.
‑‑‑ Whereupon the
hearing adjourned at 1805, to resume
on Wednesday,
June 4, 2008 at 0900 / L'audience
est ajournée à 1805, pour reprendre le mercredi
4 juin 2008 à
0900
REPORTERS
____________________ ____________________
Cynthia James Jean Desaulniers
____________________
Fiona Potvin
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