ARCHIVÉ -  Transcription

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

              TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

                      SUBJECT / SUJET:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Various broadcasting applications /

Diverses demandes de radiodiffusion

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

 

Conference Centre                     Centre de conférence

Outaouais Room                        Salle Outaouais

140 Promenade du Portage              140, Promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                      Gatineau (Québec)

 

May 15, 2008                          Le 15 mai 2008

 

 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

 

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

                 Transcript / Transcription

 

 

 

 

 

Various broadcasting applications /

Diverses demandes de radiodiffusion

 

 

 

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Michel Arpin                      Chairperson / Président

Len Katz                          Commissioner / Conseiller

Michel Morin                      Commissioner / Conseiller

 

 

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Jade Roy                          Secretary / Sécretaire

Francine Laurier-Guy              Hearing Manager /

                                  Gérante de l'audience

Jean-Sébastien Gagnon             Legal Counsel

                                  Conseiller Juridique

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

 

Conference Centre                 Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room                    Salle Outaouais

140 Promenade du Portage          140, Promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                  Gatineau (Québec)

 

May 15, 2008                      Le 15 mai 2008

 

- iv -

 

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE II

 

No interventions / Aucune intervention

 

 

 

PHASE III

 

 

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:

 

Sylvia Kornherr                                   571 / 3198

 

Emily Hunter                                      581 / 3252

 

Charles and Marilyn Runolfson                     589 / 3288

 

Aboriginal Media Education Fund                   597 / 3331

 

Karen Wood                                        607 / 3388

 

Kevin Harrison                                    609 / 3396

 

Women's Business Network of Ottawa                612 / 3417

 

Dan Ackroyd                                       623 / 3485

 

Eli El-Chantiry                                   631 / 3536

 

NorthernBlues Music                               633 / 3552

 

Native Women's Association of Canada              642 / 3596

 

Robert Du Broy                                    651 / 3636

 

Christian Hit Radio Inc.                          658 / 3677

 

CFRC-FM Radio Queen's University                  667 / 3735

 

The Jewel                                         680 / 3808

 

 

 

 

 

 

- v -

 

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE IV

 

 

REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:

 

RNC Média inc.                                    686 / 3843

 

Mark Steven Maheu (SDEC)                          690 / 3863

 

Frank Torres (SDEC)                               693 / 3886

 

Astral Media Radio inc.                           699 / 3919

 

Ottawa Media Inc.                                 704 / 3952

 

Christian Hit Radio Inc.                          708 / 3986

 

Corus Radio Company                               713 / 4014

 

Instant Information Services Incorporated         717 / 4034

 

Fiston Kalambay Mutombo (SDEC)                    719 / 4047

 

Réél-Radio                                        724 / 4072

 

Radio de la communauté francophone d'Ottawa       728 / 4097

 

- iv -

 

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE I

 

 

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

9183-9084 Québec inc.                             732 / 4121

 

 

 

PHASE II

 

 

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:

 

Conseil provincial du secteur des communications 772 / 4390

  du Syndicat canadien de la fonction publique

 

 

 

PHASE III

 

 

REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:

 

9183-9084 Québec inc.                             798 / 4555

 

 

 

 

                 Gatineau, Quebec / Gatineau (Québec)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Thursday, May 15, 2008 at 0904 /

    L'audience débute le jeudi 15 mai 2008 à 0904

3184             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

3185             Madame la secrétaire.

3186             LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci, Monsieur le Président.

3187             For the record, we would like to mention that Frank Torres, in response to the Commission's question, has submitted their survey.  A copy is available in the public examination room and it is going to be added to their application.

3188             We have now reached Phase II in which applicants appear in the same order to intervene on competing applications if they wish.

3189             Radio de la communauté francophone d'Ottawa, Réél‑Radio, Fiston Kalambay Mutombo, Instant Information Services Incorporated, Corus Radio Company, Christian Hit Radio Inc., Ottawa Media Inc., Astral Media Radio Inc., Frank Torres, Mark Steven Maheu and RNC Média Inc. have indicated that they will not appear in Phase II.

3190             Will now proceed to Phase III, in which interveners appear in the order set out in the Agenda to present their intervention.

3191             Jean Vaillancourt, Université du Québec en Outaouais, Lee Hayes, Tracey‑Lynn Sheldrick and CBC listed in the Agenda have informed us that they will not be appearing at the hearing.

3192             I would now ask AGE‑UQO de se présenter pour soumettre leur intervention.

3193             LE PRÉSIDENT : L'Association générale des étudiants de l'UQO.

3194             LA SECRÉTAIRE : Oui.

3195             Ils ne sont pas ici.

3196             I will now call Sylvia Kornherr, Charles and Marilyn Runolfson and Emily Hunter to come to the presentation table.

‑‑‑ Pause

3197             THE SECRETARY:  Sorry, you can just open your microphone, please.

INTERVENTION

3198             MS KORNHERR:  Good morning, Board of Commissioners.

3199             I have an awful lot that I am empowered and impassioned to describe where I am sitting in my feelings on this today, so please bear with me.

3200             I rushed here with the traffic so I didn't have my caffeine fix, so I hope I don't bore you.  Either you will fall asleep or I will fall asleep, but I am going to try very hard to be animated.

3201             I'm going to read something to you that I scripted because it is so important that I get everything I want to say in properly and not forget ‑‑

3202             THE SECRETARY:  Please introduce yourself first.

3203             MS KORNHERR:  Sylvia Kornherr.

3204             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

3205             MS KORNHERR:  I want to let you know that I feel that this newly proposed second Christian radio station in Ottawa will offer a really mature complement to the existing CHRI Christian music station.  We're looking for an opportunity to learn and to grow our Christian faith, as well as provide a vehicle to spiritually arouse others who are just beginning to investigate their spiritual awakening and they're looking for guidance and support and educational tools and materials, teachers, mentors.

3206             As I understand it, this radio station will offer faith teaching programs based in Christian biblical authority.  I believe it will be balanced with some very interesting sessions with Hebrew and world religion studies, a variety of thought‑provoking messages.

3207             Currently we have one Christian station airing and you know, it is basically appealing to a different demographic.  We have a lot of current music and light teaching, which is abundantly successful, but we are a very different demographic.  We are characterized not only by grey hair, but by really different wants, really different needs.

3208             There is a big hole and we would really love for the opportunity to fill that hole.

3209             What we want is really challenging and stimulating teaching, very, very hard to find.  It is important to offer this.  We want the real meat.  We want teachings that engage our minds.  We want it for us, we want it for the older generation.

3210             I am a maturing baby boomer.  We want it even for ‑‑ there is a fine wonderful group of really young adults who are so keen, there are wise beyond their age.  They are wanting this stimulation.

3211             You know, at some point we all cross that road and start asking the hard questions, and we have our one life to live and we want to live it and experience it and express it fully and teaching, spiritual teachings just opens up your mind and your spirit to fully understand who you are.

3212             It helps you in the world in everyday affairs.  It helps you become a really viable, productive person in the community.

3213             I just feel that Christian spiritual teaching is so advantageous.  It offers insights and solutions and it completely changes people's lives, and it has changed my life dramatically.

3214             I am a scientist at heart.  I have a medical background.  I am currently in software and I am a historian, and I must say that my life changed when I did the hard study and I found that my spiritual awakening basically impassioned my life.

3215             The contents on the airwaves right now, I mean it is wonderful; it provides so many brands of diverse subject material, lots of music, entertainment, reporting news.  It is fantastic.  But why not include in that diversity ‑‑ we are melting pot of cultures.  Why not include in that diversity a strong opportunity for faith oriented programs and spiritually structured teaching?

3216             Our faith‑based music and our spiritual teaching, it is confined right now to one station in the capital city of Ottawa.  You know, logistics do show we are below the normal representation.  I don't really care for that data particularly for myself.  What I care for is just an opportunity wherever we can grab it for spiritual teaching.

3217             Why the media ‑‑ sorry.  Why do I want radio as my media format?  It is a huge biggy for me.

3218             I work two jobs.  I have a fulltime job and I also have a part‑time job in the evening, of my own choice, for my passions.  I run a small hobby farm with my husband.  I have a vegetable garden.  I am very active as a community representative with council.

3219             I'm a wannabe blues vocalist.  I'm an impressionist artist, only because people can't figure out what I painted, but I try really hard to be active and involved, and the only way I can sustain that unbelievable energy really is having a very strong spiritual core.

3220             I understand my calm and my conviction and that comes through teaching.  If you don't have that teaching, you don't have a fundamental base to start to grow your knowledge.

3221             The outcome of this type of broadcasting I think, from what I can experience for my own life ‑‑ I can't speak for everyone; I can see those around me.  But for myself I have this unbelievable positive fruit.

3222             I wasn't always this way.  I was blessed, being very fortunate and very talented and probably very egotistical, and I have dramatically changed over the years.  Part of it is a maturing stage, but part of maturing is becoming spiritually aware.

3223             I have, bottom line, become a giver to society.  That is a direct link to my spiritual awakening.  Not to mention, I have also actually developed an incredibly ‑‑ I am a perfectionist and I have developed a refreshing sense of humour and I actually laugh at myself now and have discovered that actually most of my friends have been doing that all their life.

3224             But, you know, demographically if spiritual teaching on our local airwaves would yield similar positive fruits, I think with other local listeners you would find this is a very good thing on all fronts, economic, government and community, because we all become givers.

3225             And I know I'm trying to sound clever here, and I am a little, but really, seriously, I am just trying to appeal in any way I can to you.  I'm trying to be very aware of what is going on in the world and very fair, and I think I am when I say truly there is an imbalance right now of spiritual teaching on the airwaves.

3226             I am going to be a very old fart in a few years.  I am 50 next year.  I am getting pretty achy and I am concerned about our future generation, our young folks.  They are brilliant, they are smart, but sometimes we are lacking in allowing them or equipping them with tools so that they, when they become our mature decision‑makers, make the right decisions for government, for family.

3227             And especially as we are aging, we want to equip them with programs that make them aware and community oriented because they are going to be dealing with a very large older population and they are going to have to learn love, cooperation, patience and respect for an older generation, and our lives will be in their hands.

3228             I would like to equip them with the foundation to make good, solid decisions.

3229             And sharing on public thoughts very quickly, I talked to so many people.  As you can see, I am extremely shy ‑‑ I'm not, but I really enjoy people.  What they tell me is they are fascinated and curious when I talk to them about my faith, because I explain faithing not in a way of simply being submissive to an authority figure, but how I have come to develop a sense of awareness through deep study based on logic and substance, supporting historical facts and from a deep analysis of God's promises.

3230             And coming from a good educated background and a scientific mind, I could apply all those tools and become a faither on real substance and truth seeking.  And people just light up.  They light up and say to me, where did you get this data?  They suddenly become interested.

3231             So this is what teaching tools can do for somebody.  It can turn your life around.

3232             I get the sense that we are all really excited to learn when a fertile learning ground is provided, and a radio station with Christian teaching I think is a wonderful opportunity.

3233             By the way, a lot of these folks I have talked to aren't church‑goers.  They don't have another media format they attend.  I can understand in some cases it just might be a reluctance to commit because they are again not informed.  And wouldn't this be a wonderful way through radio airwaves to deliver to another segment of our community that don't currently participate in any other faithing programs?

3234             Here is a big point for me.  I am a cross‑border shopper, not by choice.  I want to talk just a little bit ‑‑ I am going to read this because there are facts about the Oprah Winfrey show.

3235             She has had a soul series now for 10 weeks straight with Eckhart Tolle, once a week for 10 weeks: intense, intense study course.  I am not here to debate the opinions or content of that spiritual teaching, but rather to point out they were offering spiritual teaching and enlightenment.

3236             And after each session each week, the following day people would Skype in from around the world on radio waves, on the Oprah satellite radio channel, 26 million people for 10 weeks.  No quitters, no fad because it was Oprah's show; did the hard study and stuck to it and last week on the last show, call‑in on the radio show, Oprah said the biggest comment I am getting from all my callers is this:  What do we do now?  It's over.

3237             So her and her marketing crew quickly put together what is now called the "Summer Soul Series".  They are going to continue it.

3238             Is this a wake‑up call?  Is this a sign of the times?

3239             I think we need to ask ourselves:  Is there a niche here for us?  I think there is.

3240             Maybe it is time for local ownership.  Maybe it is time.  We live in the capital city of Ottawa and we have one Christian station.  Could it be possible that we could open up something that is such a good quality type programming to benefit all of our community?

3241             We basically have a passionate, qualified radio personnel who has already shown you a proven track record of delivery.  We have a program lineup with dedicated teachers and visionaries that are chomping at the bit for the opportunity.  I think it is a viable Canadian vision.  I think it is a great opportunity for you as individuals to have a deciding hand in the launching of it.

3242             Is it an emotional hotbed?  I mean, do these programs incite hatred?

3243             THE SECRETARY:  I'm sorry.  Please conclude.  Your time is over.

3244             MS KORNHERR:  Okay.

3245             I think they do engage the mind.  I think there is a big difference and I think the risk far outweighs ‑‑ I'm sorry, I'm sure that the benefits far outweigh the risks.

3246             There is just so much I need to tell you that I haven't had a chance.  I have left a copy of this with the Secretary.

3247             But bottom line is it is a very, very important decision.  It is in your hands.  There is a very loyal body of listeners who are going to partake in this and we ask for your consideration.

3248             Lastly, to close, I am getting old and my eyes are dimming and my joints are aching, but I really have great hearing.  So I do hope you keep your heart open for my ears so I can have many years of audio delight.

3249             Thank you so much for your time.

3250             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

3251             We will hear the next presentation.  Please introduce yourself and you have 10 minutes.

INTERVENTION

3252             MS HUNTER:  My name is Emily Hunter and I am here today to represent a bit of a different demographic.  I might not have grey hair, but I definitely am just as enthusiastic about this initiative as everyone else is.

3253             First, what I'm going to do is I'm going to try to outline the different levels of participation I have in the Ottawa Christian community so that I can explain with what authority I am saying that there is a listing base.

3254             First, I am a parishioner of Christ the Saviour Orthodox Church on Somerset Street, and on this level I think that I can really say as an Orthodox Christian, a lot of time in the media we kind of clump together all Christian confessions and saying okay, since we already have a Christian radio station, we don't necessarily need another.

3255             But I can tell you that within my parish and within the community a lot of the time we feel like we don't really have any kind of, you know, teachings or talk shows or anything that really not necessarily target us but touch us as Orthodox Christians.

3256             One of the things that really caught my attention, and everyone else's attention in the Orthodox community is that they are actually going to have two shows which are Orthodox Christian shows on this radio station.

3257             In terms of that, I think that this really is a testament to the diversity that there will be if WORD‑FM, God willing, comes to pass.  There will be diversity.  It is not a matter of all of the thinking and all of the perspectives being, you know, unilateral and in one way.  It will reach different listening bases within the region.

3258             Also, at my parish I am the Youth Director, which means that I have lots of contact with the kids and with the teens and of course with their parents and with the other members of the Parish Council.  In doing this, you know, I get to talk to them and I am invited to their homes.

3259             They have exhaustive, exhaustive libraries of Bible studies and Christian commentaries in their homes and, you know, likewise after liturgy on Sunday mornings we sit down in the parish hall and we will sit there sometimes and talk for hours, two or three hours afterwards about different Christian topics and we learn together.

3260             On a different level, I am also one of the youth directors in the city that works for inter‑Orthodox activities, meeting the different parishes in the city getting together, having retreats, having conferences, having Bible studies and really there are hundreds of people that are involved in this.

3261             What I am really building up here is I'm trying to show that there is a large, large group of people who are committed to learning about their faith, whether it is by going to the St. John the Fellowship Bible Study at St. Elias once a week, every Tuesday, for an hour.  It is kind of like a college and careers age group.  They do this every week and there are about 20 or 25 people that come.

3262             At the university on campus there is another Bible study that I attend.  I am the President of the Orthodox Christian Fellowship on campus and we have about the same amount of students, a different group of students, 20, 25 people.  They come every week.  They give an hour of their busy schedule.

3263             Again, what I am trying to demonstrate is within even ‑‑ we are not even being targeted, our demographic, the college and careers age, but even within our demographic there is this thirst for knowledge.  There is a thirst for wanting to know more.  We go to school, we go to university, we learn so many interesting things in our classes and our programs, but there is another side of us, which is our Christian identity which we want to be able to grow and we want to be able to learn from.

3264             As great as the Christian hits radio station is, just like anyone else there are different demographics within the Christian community.  There are different interests.  You know, there are different types of people with different tastes in music.

3265             This is why I feel that there really is a need for specifically a hymns and teachings radio station.

3266             Like I have tried to describe by talking about the different Bible studies ‑‑ I haven't even begun to name all of them because I am just talking about within my age group within the Orthodox community how many Bible studies there are and how many committed people there are.  But within the greater Ottawa area it is enormous and it really is.

3267             So in terms of the teachings, I think that it would be great to have a radio station that kind of tapped into that and that, as was said before, kind of opened our minds and our hearts to the depth of knowledge and study that has developed over thousands of years, 2,000 years within Christianity.

3268             I would also like to talk a bit about my activities on campus.

3269             I am actually an employee of the university.  I work at Spiritual Services Centre which is under Community Life.  What we started to do this year was take statistical data of everybody that walked into our center, and I can tell you that at the beginning it was really tedious.  None of us really wanted to do it; you know, check every person that came in, say what year they were in or what their ‑‑ not their business, but what they were doing in our center.

3270             But now it's great, because it has given me the tools to be able to tell you that our service at the university, Spiritual Services, is the most active service on campus, to the extent that our mandate and our presence on campus has officially been extended for next semester.

3271             We have an average of 50 people coming into our office, and on top of that we have dozens of Bible studies going on every day.

3272             You know, it is also interesting to note that out of all of the clubs, you know, the Rowing Club, the Journalism Club, all of these different clubs on campus, actually the Catholic Christian Outreach is the largest numerically, the amount of members.

3273             I'm not talking members that signed a paper to create the club and then disappeared.  I am talking active members that come to faith studies.  They come to Bible studies.  They go to the praise and worship meetings.

3274             I find that very interesting because a lot of the time I think that we tend to think that there is a minority of people in the region that would want this kind of radio; that there is a minority of people that would actually, you know, in the car, who would do that driving in a car, turn on a teaching or a talk on Christianity.  You know, I'm talking people my age.

3275             But you know, it really does happen.

3276             And I think that if all of these people not only make an effort to leave their homes and leave their space and leave their schedule to fit this kind of teaching and Christian study into their lives, how much more would they do it with a radio station which can fit directly into their already existing schedule by listening to it, you know, in the car, on the way to work, or having, you know, a favourite program and turning it on.

3277             I am also going to talk a little bit about something called Ancient Faith Radio.  It is a podcast on the Internet, and it talks specifically about the ancient Church and the roots of Christianity, a lot about the Old Testament.

3278             It can be found on the Internet, ancientfaithradio.com.

3279             We often listen to this.  It is a podcast, and we will talk about it or we will use this even during our Bible studies at the various churches and we will refer to them when talking about the commentaries, the explanations of Scripture.  And I also think it would be great if we could incorporate some of that into the current airwaves.

3280             Another note is that, you know, not to draw divisions within the Christian community, because we all share our faith in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and we all definitely do love God and seek his will, but as a liturgical Christian, as someone who, you know, attends a church where I am very used to hymns ‑‑ hymns are in my nature.  When I think of praising God or of praying, there are more traditional and liturgical hymns that come to my heart and that come to my lips, and I find that it would be great to be able to have a radio station that really addresses that.

3281             I think that it is something that is definitely lacking on the airwaves right now.

3282             So I hope I haven't gone too quickly and jumped from one thing to another too much, but what I have tried to do is really lay out how there is a desire for this type of station in this city, how it would very much be welcomed, and also how it is different.  It is fundamentally different from the already existing Christian radio station.

3283             It targets a different audience, it targets a different demographic, it targets also ‑‑ it also serves different confessions of the faith.

3284             So thank you so much for your time and I hope that this has helped somewhat in your decision‑making process.

3285             Thank you.

3286             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

3287             We will now hear the next presentation.  Please introduce yourself and you have 10 minutes.

INTERVENTION

3288             MR. RUNOLFSON:  I am Charles Runolfson and my wife was listed but she is going to let me do the presentation.

3289             I think what I want to say is more concerned with the state of our nation.  We spent four months a year down in the southern U.S. and there is just such a difference of day and night when we come back from the U.S.  I think the reason for this is that the U.S. has a strong Christian presence because they have had Christian television and Christian radio for many years.  Unfortunately, in Canada we have hindered this part of the broadcasting world, I guess you would call it.

3290             So with their Christian media, they have been able to challenge the anti‑Christian organizations like the American Civil Liberties Union and Planned Parenthood and those other anti‑Christian organizations, whereas in Canada we have ‑‑ particularly in the last several years we had this Court Challenges Program which gave the homosexuals and the feminists basically free court costs to challenge anybody who disagreed with their agenda.  So as a result we see that Canada has gone backwards over the last 10 or 20 years, whereas the Americans are moving forward.

3291             We see, for example, abortion down in the U.S. I believe is getting close to the point where they are going to be probably realizing that it is not a viable alternative, whereas in Canada if you even mention the word abortion you are almost castigated.

3292             We never hear in Canada, for example, of the Lancet Report which is an English medical journal that talks about abortion and breast cancer.  I don't believe that kind of report has ever been mentioned in Canada, although there is a viable connection between abortion and breast cancer.

3293             There is also other situations in the abortion world that aren't even being considered in Canada.  For whatever reason, it seems to be not a discussable item.

3294             How many doctors and nurses have had their careers destroyed because they refused to do abortions?

3295             For example, we have OC Transpo having to hire, I think it was 179 constables to reduce the crime on the buses.  Well, to me, I think it's time we looked at the source of the problem and I believe the source is the fact that we have become such a non‑Christian or godless nation, however you want to call it, lawless nation, that we have had to increase our security, our police forces.  And sooner or later we have to come to grips with the fact that we can't continue that direction.

3296             As I mentioned, we spend a lot of time, the winters in the states.  They have 400 Christian TV stations, about 2,500 Christian radio stations.  That means in Canada we should have at least 40 Christian TV stations, and over 250 Christian radio stations.

3297             A city the size of Ottawa should have three or four Christian radio stations.

3298             The problem in Canada is, we have been inundated with anti‑Christian programming for too long.  The majority of Canadian media is liberal, and mostly anti‑Christian.

3299             The television and movie industry, which is referred to by some Americans in the states as "the hell of America", is also liberal and mostly anti‑Christian.

3300             The Canadian public has not been given, as far as I am concerned, the Christian side of the story.  We see it every day.

3301             It was surprising, in 2004, when we returned to Canada, they were having an election.  Unfortunately, a couple of Conservative candidates mentioned the word "abortion", and, of course, the media went into a frenzy.  Whereas, in the States, it is accepted that you can be pro life or you can be pro abortion.  In Canada, it's not an option.  You don't even get a choice to mention it.

3302             When my wife started teaching school in 1963, she read the Bible and said the Lord's Prayer each morning to start the school day.  These were the days when the problems the teachers had to deal with were chewing gum or misbehaving in class.  That was a stark contrast to the problems she had to deal with before retiring in 1998, and she was glad to retire.  They were dealing with drugs, alcohol abuse, pregnancies, abortions, sexually transmitted diseases, a complete lack of respect for authority, and a lack of obedience.

3303             One of the reasons is probably the fact that in the sixties about 85 percent of children went to Sunday school and church, while now 15 percent attend.

3304             Those were the days when the teen suicide rate was 2 per 100,000, compared to around 17 per 100,000 now, and that rate is twice as high in Quebec.

3305             It is interesting that our Canadian rate is 57 percent higher than in the U.S.  I personally believe that is because people in the States haven't been fed this lie that they evolved from swamp gas, which is the evolution theory.

3306             Quebec, to me, is in a tragic situation.  The suicide rate is 35 per 100,000.  That rate should be ‑‑

3307             For an atheistic country, Lithuania has a rate of 42 suicides per 100,000.  Russia has a rate of 37.4 suicides per 100,000.

3308             Quebec should be a place where the Gospel should be freely accessible to all individuals, not controlled by unelected elite.

3309             Although I know that this will not affect too much the province of Quebec, to me, Quebec has become a case study in what happens when the population walks away from the church.

3310             I mentioned evolution.  Many scientists, after analyzing the complexities of molecules and atoms, have concluded that Darwin's theory just cannot support these complex building blocks of our world, yet most scientists in the academic world refuse to even discuss it.

3311             We hear of all kinds of books being published, and it is mentioned in the newspapers about the evolution theory, but we finally have a new movie out, developed by a fellow by the name of Ben Stein in the States, called "Expelled:  No intelligence allowed".  It basically exposes the hypocrisy of the academic and scientific establishments who, up until now, have been able to destroy the career of anyone that would dare to support creation versus the evolution theory.

3312             This has been on the screens in the U.S. since mid‑April.  I believe it is coming to Canada in June, although I have never heard any publicity about it at this point, or talk about it.  I hope it comes to Canada, because we certainly need to hear what Mr. Ben Stein has to say in this movie.

3313             Basically, the problem we have had in Canada is that Canada's ruling leaders have used the same approach to destroy the career of anyone that would dare to speak the truth about abortion or homosexuality through what they call Human Rights Commissions, which are basically what many people call kangaroo courts.

3314             Many people's careers have been put on hold or destroyed simply because they wrote a letter to a newspaper ‑‑ school teacher Chris Kempling, for example.

3315             I don't hear any discussion in the media about how the 1982 Charter is slowly destroying the fabric of our Canadian society.  Usually the media chooses to convince the public about the great virtues of the Charter, but ‑‑

3316             There was a book put out by a professor from Western University, Roy Leashman(ph), where he looks at the direction we are going.

3317             If you just look at the newspapers, you will see, day in and day out, the problems we are facing in this country, yet we seem to somehow continue to sidestep them.

3318             One of the issues that came to light because of the lack of Christian teaching in this country is that we have seen our premier promoting changing the Lord's Prayer.

3319             We seem to have a serious problem in this country with people understanding spiritual principles.  As a result, we have people like this writer in The Citizen saying that the real reason politicians shouldn't pray at Queen's Park is because we don't recite the Lord's Prayer at a Senator's game, so why should we recite it in the legislature.

3320             What we are trying to do is rely on God's wisdom and counsel, and obviously you don't need God's wisdom and counsel if you are going to a Senator's game.

3321             We see people saying, "We should worship all of these gods," but the fact is, we have in this country a real ignorance of the fact that there is only one true God.  There are other religions that worship other gods, but there is only one true God.

3322             Most believe that the Muslims' Allah and the God of the Bible are the same, but God has a son, while, according to the Koran, Allah can have no son.  In fact, the Muslims emphasize this point on their dome in Jerusalem, which states right on it that Allah has no son.

3323             Although the good news is that every day 16,000 Muslims are leaving Islam for Christianity, and every year 6 million Muslims are leaving Islam for Christianity.  They find Islam inconsistent with science, logic, human rights, ethics.  They find that Islam is not the way to God, but to ignorance, poverty and war.

3324             THE SECRETARY:  I'm sorry, your time is up.  Can you please conclude in 30 seconds.

3325             MR. RUNOLFSON:  My summary is that I am just to the point that I feel that we have to seriously consider changing the direction this country is going, and the media, as far as I am concerned, is a key part of changing that direction.  That's why I feel that we need that Christian radio station.

3326             Thank you.

3327             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Runolfson, Ms Hunter and Ms Kornherr.  We don't have any questions for you.

3328             Thank you very much for your presentation.

3329             Madam Secretary.

3330             THE SECRETARY:  I would now ask the Aboriginal Media Education Fund to come to the presentation table.

INTERVENTION

3331             MS WATSON:  Good morning, everyone.

3332             Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission, and Staff, my name is Mireille Watson, and I am the Executive Director of the Aboriginal Media Education Fund, also known as AMEF.

3333             I am appearing before you today to express the unqualified support of the Aboriginal Media Education Fund for the application by Ottawa Media Inc. to operate a new FM radio station serving Ottawa and Gatineau.

3334             Before outlining the reasons why we are appearing before you in support of the Ottawa Media application, I would like to tell you a little more about the Aboriginal Media Education Fund.

3335             You may have heard me about a year and a half ago in Regina, and I hope I am not repeating myself, but, essentially, we are still the same.

3336             AMEF was established almost three years ago.  It is a registered, national, charitable organization, and our mandate is to encourage, promote and make possible the development of an Aboriginal pool of film, television and radio broadcast professionals, and to create opportunities for the creation of original Aboriginal programming, and the professional development of Aboriginal persons.

3337             Our education programs target three specific groups:  Aboriginal youth who are 13 years of age and older; recent Aboriginal graduates from film and broadcast programs; and mid‑career professionals seeking new career opportunities in broadcasting.

3338             We provide funding and resources to Aboriginal persons who aspire to a career in film, television and radio broadcasting, so that they are able to contribute to both mainstream media industries and to the specialized communications needs of First Nations, Inuit and Métis communities.

3339             AMEF is the go‑to organization for the career development of Aboriginal persons who are contemplating careers in broadcasting.  We support our Aboriginal persons in the following ways.

3340             We provide resources and information about career opportunities available in the broadcasting media and communications fields.

3341             We provide funding for Aboriginal students who express an interest in attending training and educational programs in television and radio.

3342             We provide assistance to Aboriginal media and broadcasting organizations in finding employees who have the broadcasting training and skills needed to make a meaningful contribution to their organization.

3343             And we provide assistance to other non‑Aboriginal media and broadcasting organizations that are seeking to increase the representation of Aboriginal people in their workforce.

3344             Each year the funding that we provide to these initiatives is dependent on two factors ‑‑ obviously, the amount of money that we receive from broadcasters and other donors, and the requests we receive from members of the Aboriginal community for funding.

3345             The funding that we receive from radio broadcasters like Ottawa Media Inc., which is provided in accordance with their Canadian Content Development commitments, is used solely for educational programs.  The money goes directly to support educational and training programs for Aboriginal students and professionals who are interested in starting a career in radio broadcasting.  It is disbursed to the institutions offering the education and training programs, not given directly to the student.

3346             None of the funds we receive as a result of a radio licensee's CCD commitments are used by AMEF to support our administration or infrastructure costs.  The funds are used exclusively for educational purposes.  As such, we believe that our programs are eligible for CCD funding, in accordance with Broadcasting Public Notice 2006‑158.

3347             I am very happy to express our support for the application by Ottawa Media Inc. for a licence to operate a new FM radio station, known as ALICE, which will serve Ottawa and Gatineau.  I believe that the new FM station will provide the Ottawa and Gatineau communities with a new, distinct radio alternative, one that is responsive to the interests of a broad cross‑section of listeners, and one that does not simply focus on the top 40 playlist.

3348             As a radio listener myself, I am pleased that the new station will provide a unique, eclectic mix of music, which will breathe new life into the Ottawa‑Gatineau radio market.

3349             I am also particularly pleased that Ottawa Media Inc., through its CCD commitments, agreed to devote considerable funds to the education and training of Aboriginal youth.  AMEF believes that the approval of this application will ensure that Aboriginal persons are able to launch careers in music, journalism and radio.

3350             This is not the first time that Evanov Communications Inc. has made commitments as part of a radio application to support AMEF.  We very much appreciate all of the support that Mr. Evanov and his companies have given to our charitable organization.

3351             It is an unfortunate fact of life that the opportunities for Aboriginal youth to work in the broadcasting field are limited.  The lack of available funding for Aboriginal youth to obtain proper training or to attend educational programs has had a direct impact on the number of Aboriginal people who are working in the field.

3352             That is why the commitment of funds by Ottawa Media Inc. is so important.

3353             The CCD funds that Ottawa Media Inc. has set aside for AMEF will help us realize our goals of providing the necessary education, mentoring and internships to indigenous people, which will, in turn, allow and encourage them to tell their own stories ‑‑ and hopefully sell them ‑‑ through music and journalism.

3354             By using the funds to help Aboriginal people launch careers in the broadcasting industry, we will also contribute to reducing stereotypes within Canadian society, and will help build bridges between the Aboriginal communities and the rest of Canada.

3355             In our view, the fact that a small number of Aboriginal people work in the broadcasting field has meant that the general population in Canada has had limited exposure to First Nations, Inuit and Métis characters as TV and radio personalities.

3356             This has started to change with the presence of APTN, and we hope that Aboriginal Voices Radio will begin to realize its potential, but there is still a fairly long way to go.

3357             Ottawa Media Inc.'s commitment to provide CCD funding to AMEF is important because it will help to foster the development of Aboriginal talent within the radio industry in Canada.  Aboriginal people will aspire to being musicians, writers, producers, on‑air personalities, and will have new career opportunities as a result of this funding.

3358             In the absence of this funding, the Aboriginal youth we support would not have the means to chase their dreams.

3359             In our view, the financial contribution that Ottawa Media Inc. has proposed as part of its CCD commitments will provide enormous benefits to the Aboriginal community.  This funding will certainly contribute to the development of audio content in this country.  AMEF will use the funds to support, promote, train and develop Aboriginal music and spoken word talent.

3360             In closing, I would reiterate AMEF's strong support for Ottawa Media Inc.'s application to operate an FM radio station serving Ottawa and Gatineau, and the CCD commitments proposed in that application.  We believe that the financial commitment made by Ottawa Media Inc. to AMEF will provide significant support to Aboriginal peoples who are seeking a career in music and radio broadcasting.

3361             Thank you.

3362             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Ms Watson.  I thought that your submission was quite elaborate, and we appreciate it very much.

3363             I only have one question.  In dealing with Evanov Radio, have they talked about hiring some of the students, or providing some internships and training?

3364             MS WATSON:  Certainly, we are looking for funding to promote the hiring of anyone who is trained, but part of the training is, obviously, on‑the‑job training.

3365             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

3366             MS WATSON:  That is the most important part.

3367             I have worked on many, many training programs across the country, and in this industry that is the only thing that works.

3368             Essentially, we would work with Evanov.  I have already started working on programs.  And we would make sure that there was very much a formal training part, and then an on‑the‑job mentorship.

3369             And I think I can easily say, having run some national training programs, that 90 percent of graduates are usually hired by the broadcasters they work with ‑‑ until, of course, the CBC comes along and takes them away.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

3370             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Or another broadcaster.

3371             MS WATSON:  Or another broadcaster.

3372             THE CHAIRPERSON:  As you said in your presentation, you are getting funding from other radio broadcasters ‑‑ or other broadcasters, not necessarily radio.

3373             MS WATSON:  As you know, we have been very generously included in many.  Most of the decisions have not yet come through.

3374             But, in the meantime, we have done marvellously with limited funding.  We have been getting moneys from other organizations, like INAC, like Aboriginal Workshop, Trade Roots, and with that we have started some major programs.

3375             I am looking forward to the day when there is more money to do more training, because we have all of our databases, we are ready to go, and I am really looking forward to being able to hire a couple more people.

3376             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you have a similar program in the French language?

3377             MS WATSON:  We definitely have programs in both languages.

3378             Also, I am now working with some of the Inuit northern broadcasters to look at doing things in Aboriginal languages.

3379             As you might know, dealing with Aboriginal youth, those who are already in the industry, it is very important to go to them, as opposed to putting out a call.

3380             One of the very important things that we have been doing is actually reaching out to the people and deciding who is ready to be trained, and actually approaching them and tailoring programs that will benefit them, and making sure that there will be an employer at the end of the day.

3381             I divert.  I am going way beyond what you asked me.

3382             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Ms Watson.

3383             MS WATSON:  Thank you.

3384             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary.

3385             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

3386             I would now ask Karen Wood, Kevin Harrison, and the Women's Business Network of Ottawa to come to the presentation table.

3387             We will start with the presentation of Karen Wood.  You will have ten minutes for your presentation.  Thank you.

INTERVENTION

3388             MS WOOD:  My name is Karen Wood.  I own a boutique PR agency in Ottawa called "Knock on Wood Communications and Events".  We are publicists for various consumer, community, arts and entertainment events and festivals.  We work to generate promotion and publicity for these entities, and provide the media with news stories that are pertinent to the particular properties we are promoting.

3389             I see that a station like Eve‑fm would be of significant benefit to the Ottawa community.  I think it is time for a station that specifically speaks to women.

3390             There have long been stations primarily targeting men.  That is not to say that women aren't sports fans.  That is not to say that women aren't business owners and interested in talk radio shows that focus on finances or home renovations, but there are many women‑centric issues that I think this station would bring forward.

3391             The popularity of new web portals specifically targeting women ‑‑ the subscription lists are growing really rapidly.  We know that because we are using them to promote our products and services.

3392             A lot of the events that we work on, and a lot of the clients that we work for are marketing services, events, products that specifically target women, and I really think that Eve‑fm would be a great addition to the Ottawa radio landscape.

3393             As I mentioned, while there are stations in the market that may target women with their music programming, the additional content, things like tips and stories about the home, relationships, fashion, family, community events, even the kinds of entertainment events that we work to promote, like Broadway shows, Cirque de Soleil, the Ottawa Home Show, and different festivals, like the Dragon Boat Festival ‑‑ a lot of times we are looking for partners in promotion and publicity that provide more opportunity to reach out directly to this audience, and I don't really feel that there are stations in the marketplace right now that can do that, certainly not to the extent that Eve‑fm could.

3394             That is pretty much my pitch.

3395             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.  We will now hear the presentation of Kevin Harrison.

INTERVENTION

3396             MR. HARRISON:  Hi, my name is Kevin Harrison.  I am the Executive Director of the Action Centre in Montreal, and I am also a very dedicated volunteer for Muscular Dystrophy Canada, which is a non‑profit organization that helps people with neuromuscular disorders.  I have been very involved for the last 15 years of my life with them, for obvious reasons.

3397             I have been living in the Ottawa area for three and a half years now, and I immediately wanted to get involved in my new community when I arrived.

3398             I have been organizing charity events since my early high school days, and what was once called Standard Radio, and is now called Astral Media, has stood behind me time and time again over the years to help me help others with all of the charity work I do.

3399             When I moved to Ottawa, I approached Astral's Ottawa Station, Bear FM, and met with its manager within just a couple of days of making the initial call.  I couldn't believe the level of community involvement that The Bear was involved with.  It was remarkable.

3400             Not only did they support my inaugural gala event by providing promotions and prizes, management of the station got involved on the organizing committee, attended all of the meetings, and put his own personal time into it, which is something you don't see every day.

3401             As well as on‑air personalities who came to emcee the event, the MD "Gala of Hope" is now in its fourth year.  A quarter of a million dollars has been raised for the muscular dystrophy cause, which is phenomenal.

3402             This all came about because Astral cares about its community and the people living in it.

3403             I recently had the pleasure of working with The Bear once again on a new spring initiative, called "The Chairwear Challenge", where we challenged the people of Ottawa to spend a full day in a wheelchair to see what it's like, to walk a mile in my shoes.

3404             We had over 20 Bear listeners who signed up and raised $35,000 for the muscular dystrophy cause.

3405             The outcome of this event wasn't only that money was raised, the participants had a newfound respect and admiration for what people in wheelchairs have to go through every day.

3406             Not only that, we had commitments from various vendors in the Ottawa area, retailers, who recognized that their establishments weren't wheelchair accessible, and thought it was time to get with the program and start looking into adapting their places.

3407             Again, all of these good things came about because this corporate citizen, Astral, cares for its listeners, and people in general.

3408             Sure, the radio business already has competition, but what industry doesn't at this point?  It is competition that pushes us all to do better, to move forward, to stand out from the next guy.

3409             There is nothing wrong at all in giving the radio listeners of Ottawa a little choice on the airwaves.

3410             I think it's a great idea, creating Eve‑fm.  It is a unique lifestyle concept for women, offered for the first time in the North American market.  We are talking about a radio station that will provide advice on simplifying life and maintaining a healthy balance, basically keeping it simple in the hectic times we live in.

3411             We could all benefit from some of those teachings.  I know that I certainly could.

3412             The CRTC should grant the application for the creation of this unique radio station, not only because it is unique, but because Eve‑fm will help to make Ottawa a better place to live.  Astral Media isn't only going to do a good job in getting it up and running and off the ground, they will do a great job, and they certainly have my vote of confidence.

3413             Thank you.

3414             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

3415             We will now hear the presentation of the Women's Business Network of Ottawa.

3416             Please introduce yourself.  You will have ten minutes.

INTERVENTION

3417             MS RUTHERFORD:  Good morning.  My name is Deanna Rutherford, and I am here both as an individual resident of this community and as the Director of External Communications, which is a volunteer position, with the Women's Business Network of Ottawa.

3418             I am here to support Astral Media's application for Eve‑fm.

3419             The Women's Business Network of Ottawa is a 26‑year‑old organization that supports, obviously, women in business.

3420             As for myself, I am involved in many things.  I have been in business for over 25 years, and the business I have at the moment is as a coach ‑‑ a marketing coach, a life coach, and an anti‑aging specialist.  I have quite a combination of skills going.

3421             Personally, I am a radio listener, and often find it frustrating that I can't find anything that is consistently appealing to me on the many stations that now exist in the area.

3422             I tend to be constantly punching in the car, looking for something, and not finding it.

3423             What Astral Media is proposing is a real breath of fresh air in the world of radio in our community, for the world of radio listeners.

3424             I support their creative initiative in thoughtfully proposing a station that does not yet exist anywhere, and will certainly gain a vast listening audience from Day 1 in our community.

3425             Women have important things to say.  We have important things to share.

3426             I know this is a station, as Kevin said, that will not simply be listened to by women.  It will appeal to men, as well.

3427             However, with regard to women, we contribute a huge amount to our local economy.  So, of course, intelligent advertisers will support the station with advertising revenues.  It is a well known fact that women make most of the household and other purchases.

3428             Personally, I welcome the kind of music and programming format which they are proposing.  Myself and my business associates, both in the WBN ‑‑ the Women's Business Network ‑‑ and the several other women's networks that I belong to are 100 percent behind this station, and are willing to be key contributors as well.

3429             There are many, many women in this community who have talents and skills that could contribute to this station, which is so unique.

3430             And, again, hats off to Astral Media for putting this proposal forward.  It's definitely needed in our community.

3431             So, I have some background in radio myself and so I understand the enormity of Astral's initiative, but I also know that they're investing in state‑of‑the‑art technology and giving Eve‑FM the widest possible coverage so that all listeners who fall within the greater Ottawa area will have access to this exciting and long‑awaited station.

3432             So, I urge you to consider and to help bring this station to our community.

3433             And thank you very much for your attention.

3434             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Morin.

3435             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  Yes.  My first question will be with Mr. Harrison.

3436             You said that Astral has fully supported several charitable projects.  Did you try to get other stations involved in your efforts?

3437             MR. HARRISON:  That's a good question.

3438             I have worked with several companies over the years, such as Corus ‑‑ Corus, CHUM maybe a few years back.  I've got to be honest though, I've had ‑‑ out of all the big radio broadcasters, I mean, Astral/Standard Radio was the one that was the most involved in the community in terms of the air time ‑‑ the amount of air time they give.  Just a different mentality altogether when it came to promoting charity events.

3439             So, that's where I had my most luck and I stuck with No. 1.

3440             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  So, you are not in a position to compare Astral with other radio stations because ‑‑

3441             MR. HARRISON:  I am in the sense that I have worked with other stations on several occasions, not having much luck, being disappointed by the amount of publicity that was committed to the various gala walks, all the events I've done.

3442             And, again, Astral/Standard Radio always came out ahead as being the most generous.  So, I ‑‑

3443             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  As far as you're concerned?

3444             MR. HARRISON:  As far as I'm concerned, yeah, yeah.

3445             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  Now, perhaps another question with Ms Wood.

3446             As an organization, have you ever done business with this type of radio, I mean, a radio station mainly focused on 35‑64 years old clientele?

3447             MS WOOD:  Have I done business with a radio station like this?  I mean, obviously not one that's specific to women, but absolutely.

3448             We also do a lot of work with various charity and community organizations and we negotiate radio sponsorship and promotional support and we work with a myriad of clients and I've worked with every radio station in the city in some capacity.

3449             I mean, there are radio stations out there now that are our current partners for events and client projects that we're working on.

3450             But I really think, I mean from our portfolio of clients and events, that Eve‑FM would be a tremendous fit promotionally and publicity wise for a lot of the different things we work on.

3451             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  But specifically, why this format will be easier for you?

3452             MS WOOD:  I mean, our job when we work for clients is twofold.  I mean ‑‑ well, it's singular in that we're trying to generate awareness of new products and services that will be of interest to the public.

3453             And we do that by ‑‑ whether, you know, through sponsorship and promotion and through distributing media releases and pitching story ideas, and the Eve‑FM format will offer a platform to tell the listeners, which in this case will be specifically women 35 plus, about specific products, services, events, community programs that are of specific interest to them.

3454             I mean, there isn't right now ‑‑ I mean, certainly we get coverage in newspapers and, you know ‑‑ I mean, we do get interviews on other radio stations including CBC that has a broader talk format, but the fact Eve‑FM, in addition to its musical programming that's going to appeal to women 35 plus, there is an opportunity here for more sort of editorial type coverage and we're in the business of generating story ideas that the media pick up on because they're of specific interest to their listeners.

3455             And I just ‑‑ when I look at our whole portfolio, we're often looking for a fit, whether it be promotionally or publicity wise for our audience which we target primarily females 35 plus for a lot of the events and initiatives that we work on.

3456             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  My next question will be with the Women in Business, but you can jump in if you want.

3457             In your letter of support you said that it will be a station that speaks to and reflects issues of interest to women.

3458             Would you say that other radio stations are not taking care of issues of interest to women?

3459             MS RUTHERFORD:  Certainly not in a consistent manner or a concerted ‑‑ or, they don't make a concerted effort.

3460             This is what I see in what is being proposed for Eve‑FM that, you know, let's face it, there is a difference between what men and women listen to and watch on television, for example, there's the action station on TV and there's the women's station on TV, so...   And the issues that are dealt with tend to be somewhat different.

3461             As I said in my presentation, I see that there's going to be ‑‑ there are going to be men who will find this a very soothing, interesting station to listen to, but from what I understand, Astral Media, Eve‑FM will be focused definitely far more on what it is that we as women are looking for, both in terms of lifestyle and, for example, my network, the Women's Business Network, we're 170 women all of whom are in business or senior positions or executives in corporations and I have discussed with a lot of them about what kind of programming, what kind of music they want to have access to and they're very much behind what Astral Media is proposing as a clear alternative to what's out there now.

3462             Like, right now what we're looking at is we're looking at rock stations, we're looking at oldies stations, we're looking at news stations ‑‑ not that women aren't interested in the news ‑‑ but Astral will bring that in along with all of the other issues that they plan to cover.

3463             And there's a lot ‑‑ there are a lot of resourceful women in our community who would want to be part of this, want to participate in this.

3464             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  So, would you say that it will be the main difference between Eve‑FM and the competitors?

3465             MS RUTHERFORD:  Sorry, I...?

3466             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  Would you say that the main difference will be the focus on women and their interest ‑‑

3467             MS RUTHERFORD:  Absolutely.

3468             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  ‑‑ and talks about them ‑‑

3469             MS RUTHERFORD:  Yes.

3470             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  ‑‑ and the issues they are facing?

3471             MS RUTHERFORD:  Yes, yes.

3472             MS WOOD:  If I can just add to that.  I mean, as was mentioned, there are a variety of stations out there that their music programming can be targeted primarily at women in this same demographic age group, but you see segmenting in television programming with the emergence of shows like the W Network, WTN, the Food Network.

3473             I mean, women are business owners, women are interested in real estate, women are interested in home renovation.

3474             Now, they're designing home renovation programs specifically targeting the special way that women go about their own home renovations.

3475             Recently at the last Home Show we got tremendous publicity for a company called Tomboy Tools that manufacturers and distributes tools for women, by women, ergonomically designed to fit a woman's hand and they put home renovation in a context that appeals to women.

3476             There are already existing segmented stations that, like a sports station or a talk radio, and while certainly women are sports fans and certainly women want to listen to the business programming that's on some of the existing stations, but there are specific issues.

3477             We're business owners but we're also mothers; we're business owners but we still care about fashion and anti‑aging products.

3478             And, you know, there's a reason why Oprah Winfrey's show is so successful, she's speaking to women.  Men can still enjoy it, men are interested in it, but the subject matter or the way of dealing with or positioning certain subject matter has a woman's sensibility, and I think that's important today.

3479             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  Thank you very much.

3480             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Ms Wood and Rutherford and Mr. Harrison.

3481             We will take a 15‑minute break.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1011 / Suspension à 1011

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1030 / Reprise à 1030

THE SECRETARY:  Please take a seat.

3482             We will now start with the presentation of Mr. Dan Ackroyd.

3483             Mr. Ackroyd, you have 10 minutes to make your presentation.

3484             Thank you.

INTERVENTION

3485             MR. ACKROYD:  Yes, good morning.

3486             This is Dan Ackroyd, I'm in New York City.  I'm a summer resident of Canada and, of course, a Canadian citizen.

3487             And my reason for lobbying on behalf of a blues station; namely, DAWG‑FM, a new blues format, I guess primarily comes from my view of media and culture today.

3488             We have a preponderance in film and in television, in video games of violence and adolescents and young people today are being exposed to an increasing degree of violent activity in the media, also activity which demeans the gender of both women and men.

3489             And what a good, honest blues station offers is decent entertainment which is free of the profanity that is allowed on radio, for instance, like I cite Howard Stern and such shows where there's a venal, profane attitude towards the listener.

3490             And the blues station DAWG‑FM, the type of format they propose would be completely free of this type of, I would say, cultural decline and what it offers the people is music that is sourced from the African‑American songbook, music that is sourced from the greatest fonts in the world, that is, the music of the south, of the electric blues of Memphis, of Chicago which, in turn, brought us rock & roll and the music that we listen to today.

3491             So, from a cultural point of view and a moral point of view, if you will, just trying to improve what young adolescents are seeing and hearing in the media, and an educational point of view, because the blues stations do educate about the origins of this music and where it's from and where it's going.  This I think makes up the substance of a pretty strong appeal.

3492             And then you have the aspects of the commercial applications, the fact that a blues station will encourage people to buy records, either online or at stores, it will encourage people to maybe pick up instruments and play, it will encourage young people to find out more about this music, it will encourage liquor licence operators to bring live music into their venues.

3493             And, so, generally it affects a whole range of industries and that sort of constitutes the first body of my statement.

3494             And if there are any questions, I'd be happy to answer them.

3495             But my experience is that I host the House of Blues Radio Hour and we're in almost 200 markets across the United States.  We're in our 16th year of broadcasting and the feedback and reaction from the markets we're in is just phenomenal.

3496             We've added immeasurably to listeners' pleasure all over North America and I think that DAWG‑FM would be a most worthy addition to radio culture and to Canadian media.

3497             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Ackroyd, I'm asking Commissioner Katz to ask you some questions.

3498             MR. ACKROYD:  Sure.

3499             COMMISSIONER KATZ:  Good morning, Mr. Ackroyd and thank you for taking the time for this intervention.

3500             MR. ACKROYD:  Thank you, sir.

3501             COMMISSIONER KATZ:  In your letter that you sent us back about a year ago you highlight, as the Applicant has highlighted, the need for a solely blues channel format here in Canada.

3502             What has been, to your knowledge, the experience in the U.S. markets with an all‑blues radio format?

3503             MR. ACKROYD:  Very ‑‑ the all‑blues radio format that a lot of stations have taken up has been very successful.  The advertising rates have, you know, come to the level of what we used to call, you know, FM album rock stations or popular rock stations, it started to climb.

3504             The blues networks ‑‑ the blues stations support a whole range of cultural live events, for instance, blues festivals and blues clubs and blues musicians and just the whole community.

3505             And the success of stations and also our syndicated effort here with the House of Blues Radio Hour has been basically unqualified, enough to keep these people in business here over the last few years.

3506             COMMISSIONER KATZ:  Obviously the U.S. market is a much bigger market than the Canadian market, but if you look at the top 100 markets in the U.S., do the majority of them have an all‑blues format station?

3507             MR. ACKROYD:  I wouldn't say it's in the majority, but I would say that a large number of markets are coming to this.

3508             As you are well aware, what's happened in radio in the United States is that talk radio and sports radio have come in and really taken over music formats and, so, there's a movement to try to, I guess, keep the talk and the sports to a limit in some areas.

3509             And the popularity of the blues stations is being tried, it's true, but where people have stayed with it, it's been very, very effective and has knit together an entire community of businessmen, of advertisers, of radio programmers and musicians wherever it's been done.

3510             COMMISSIONER KATZ:  Has the introduction of satellite radio, Sirius or XM with an all‑blues format helped or hindered the expansion of blues basic radio?

3511             MR. ACKROYD:  I think it's helped because they do such a good job at the satellite radio of presenting the blues formats and although, as you're aware, XM and Sirius now are going through this merger because they haven't been able to generate any profits, I don't think you can ‑‑ I just think you can really just pin that on the fact that people feel a little hesitant buying a device and subscribing.

3512             You have to ‑‑ in order to have satellite radio, as you know, you have to own the hardware then you have to do a subscription.  So, I think this has held some people back.

3513             But those that I talked to that listen to satellite radio, the Bluesville Station on XM is just a staple, it's on in their cars and trucks all that time.

3514             And I know when I drive across country I just leave it right there on that Bluesville Station because they do a great job of formatting.

3515             I think if satellite radio, you know, can come to the point where they can convince people to buy the hardware, it's going to be a lot more successful, but obviously free radio has its appeal and, that is, that you just turn it on and you don't have to pay a subscription every month and you don't have to buy the special hardware for it.

3516             So, there's definitely a place for an all‑blues format I think in the free radio of Canadian media.

3517             COMMISSIONER KATZ:  You failed to say the other reason you listen to it is because it plays your music as well, but...

3518             MR. ACKROYD:  Well, it plays ‑‑ yeah.  The thing about blues is it plays, it's such a wide ranging from of art.  You know, people say, well, blues music, it makes you sad or it sings about people who have disadvantage.

3519             Well, really there's a lot of humour in blues and the songs can range from satirical to political, you know, to social.

3520             So ‑‑ and right now in Canada we have a tremendous community of blues players, if you want to go back and sort of take, you know, a little reverence for Dutch Mason and the old guys like that, and then you take Donny Walsh and Downchild Blues Band and then, of course, there's Colin James.

3521             And we have artists all across the country, artists out of New Brunswick, Matt Anderson.  You know, there's rising stars in the world, but they need the exposure.

3522             Every great blues star that's out there, whether it's the biggest, Bonny Rait, B.B. King, Buddy Guy, they have to tour and they've got to be on the radio in order to sell their records.

3523             So, what the blues format does is it services, I would say, the several hundred blues artists across Canada that are proud to be Canadian, that are proud to be in this forum and singing and playing blues but doing it in a Canadian sense, writing about Canadian culture, playing to Canadian audiences.

3524             So, it supports a range of artists who are truly Canadian, loyal to the country, still touring in the country, haven't had the exposure in the U.S., need it in Canada.

3525             It encourages record sales, it encourages venue owners to hire the bands and it basically supports an entire culture that has a possibility to grow to great length and expanse.

3526             COMMISSIONER KATZ:  Thank you very much.

3527             Those are my questions, Mr. Chairman.

3528             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

3529             Thank you very much, Mr. Ackroyd.  Thank you for taking the time and calling us.  It's very much appreciated.

3530             So, if you want to hear what the others have to say you could stay on the line, otherwise we'll thank you very much for the time.

3531             MR. ACKROYD:  All right.  Thank you kindly.

3532             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

3533             Ms Secretary.

3534             THE SECRETARY:  We will now hear the presentation of Mr. El‑Chantiry.  You have 10 minutes for your presentation.

3535             Thank you.

INTERVENTION

3536             MR. EL‑CHANTIRY:  Good morning, Mr. Chairman and Panel members and staff.

3537             Thank you for the opportunity to speak today.

3538             Today I think I'm going to speak in a different aspect than the previous speaker.  Obviously the previous speaker is well in tune with blues and artists' names and so on.

3539             I want to speak a little bit about why I'm here today.  I'm a city councillor at the City of Ottawa, representing West Carleton/Lanark where Mr. Bernard ‑‑ Todd Bernard one of the applicants reside with his family.

3540             And I took the time today out of my work to support this application knowing it has a local community flavour by having Mr. Bernard as a resident in my ward, in my area.  We belong to the same church and community association which his wife and his kids attend frequently, his family live across the street from my family business.

3541             And I want to speak about how fast the blues has grown in the City of Ottawa.  My office is on the north side of the park and, as you know, in the past the Blues Fest has always reside at the city park outside the City Hall and unfortunately this year we're going to miss that sitting in your office and listening to the music playing and having all my friends calling me to come to my office which is ‑‑ they usually don't, except in Blues Festival time ‑‑ this year they're moving to ‑‑ I believe to the new location is LaBreton Flats and that's going to be their new residence.

3542             So, what I'm trying to say here, in my five years at the City Hall, I witness the growth in number and fans of the Blues Fest and I can assure you to have a station to play that type of music during the year, and I'm not looking, of course, just for playing the music itself, I'm looking for to be a community station and that's what I heard from the applicant, they would like to see more of news, interviews, traffic.

3543             As you know, Todd Bernard was known in the City of Ottawa as Captain Todd when he came 14 years ago from Toronto through Skyward and he was the general manager for the company.

3544             So, I'm looking for that type of station can be part of our community, can get involved in fund raising like the one I just did this weekend by shaving my head for Cops for Cancer.  As you can see, I don't normally shave my head like this.

3545             And that's the type of station I'm looking for as a City of Ottawa resident and City of Ottawa councillor who really witnessed the growth of the blues family in the City of Ottawa.

3546             So, I don't have more to add, Mr. Chair, other than I will encourage you, you and your Panel, to have an open mind about this application because it's not just a big media company that's looking for another spot on the dial up, it has a local connection to the city, to our residents.

3547             And I would be glad to answer any questions if you have any.

3548             Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

3549             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

3550             We'll now hear the presentation of Northern Blues Music.

3551             Please introduce yourself and you have 10 minutes.

INTERVENTION

3552             MR. LITWIN:  Yes, good morning.  And thank you for having me appear before the CRTC.

3553             My name is Fred Litwin and I'm the President and owner of Northern Blues Music.  We're a blues music label that actually is based here in Ottawa and I want to tell you a bit about my company.

3554             I was actually fortunate enough to retire in 2000 from working and I decided I needed to have something to do with the rest of my life and I started Northern Blues Music, a blues label that's dedicated to bringing the best of Canadian artists and American artists to the market around the world.

3555             And to that end I'm really proud that last week at the Blues Music Awards in Mississippi one of my American artists was awarded the album of the year for the Blues Music Awards, which is quite an honour for a Canadian company to do that.

3556             Let me talk a bit about blues music.  I mean blues music is everywhere.  Everything that we listen to today really ‑‑ most of what we listen to; jazz and rock, soul, really originated with blues.  That's where it all came from.  The source of a lot of modern music comes from blues.  I mean if you go back to the Rolling Stones they were a blues band.  That was their whole raison d'être was to be a great blues band.

3557             Advertisers use blues all over the place.  You can barely turn ‑‑ not see a TV commercial that doesn't use blues or radio commercials.  In fact one of my Canadian artists, Paul Reddick, for the last three years has had a song that's been used in a Coca‑Cola commercial that's been played in the United States, and that's generated a significant amount of revenue for him and me.

3558             In Canada blues is everywhere.  Just about every city has a blues club and it's not just the blues festivals that we have in London and Windsor, Ottawa and Atlantic Canada.  It's the fact that every folk festival in Canada plays blues because people want to hear it and we've got thousands and thousands, a lot of blues artists, a lot of artists who play blues.

3559             Now, I want to talk to you about why this station.  And I have got to show you, this is a CD.  I have a CD for you if you want to take one home.  One of my ‑‑ this is one of my Canadian artists who actually lives here in Ottawa, J.W. Jones, and I know he testified here, I think yesterday in support of this application.

3560             I signed J.W. when he was 19 years old back in 2000.  He was the first artist I signed.  He was a young kid and here in Ottawa trying to make a living in blues, and now this is his fifth CD for NorthernBlues just released this month around the world.  It's an amazing CD.  He has got some great American blues artists as guests and it was recorded right in his home here in Ottawa.

3561             The sad fact is that this CD is only going to get played maybe once or twice on the Holger Peterson show on CBC on Saturday night.  It will get played on a couple of blues radio shows that are perhaps once a week in various cities in Canada, and that's it.  Nobody is going to hear the CD.  It's a great music CD.  It's fantastic.

3562             This is a local artist and the plain fact of the matter is that it's not going to get heard by Canadians because radio stations just won't play blues.  Now, they will play Eric Clapton perhaps sometimes because he is very, very popular even though that also is blues, but J.W. is not going to get airplay.  He is not going to get airplay here in Ottawa or around the country and he really deserves it.

3563             I am really proud of this CD and my other Canadian artists.  And one of the things that I have tried to do with my company is I have American artists and I have Canadian artists and those American artists allow me to bring these Canadian artists into the United States market where they get exposure there.  So I have credibility for my American artists down there and that allows me to bring these people down to the States where it's very important for them to get exposure.

3564             But besides J.W. Jones there is lots of other blues artists here in Ottawa and other cities in Canada that are struggling to make a living.  It's not easy being a blues musician.  It's hard.  There is not that many clubs.  Clubs are having a tough time.

3565             These people need exposure and this music is very important historically for Canada, for the United States and I strongly, strongly urge you to let this station have a chance.  Believe me, I am dying to spend my money in advertising on this station and I would love to have a commercial blues station that could actually help me promote this music here in Ottawa and around the country.

3566             I'm passionate about this music.  I love it.  I do this only because I love it and any chance I get I will promote this music very, very strongly.  And I really hope you could help us out here as well.

3567             Anyway, thank you very much for listening to me.

3568             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

3569             Commissioner Katz.

3570             COMMISSIONER KATZ:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

3571             I have one question, Mr. Litwin.  You were saying that a lot of the bars and locations where blues is played are struggling right now.  Are there other reasons why they are struggling besides just the fact that their music isn't being played on the radio?

3572             MR. LITWIN:  Well, that's one reason they are struggling.  There is two parts to it.

3573             For the first part is right now it's tougher and tougher for good musicians to get out to a lot of clubs because of the rising price of gas and the amount of travel it takes to get to clubs.  Just this week the Bamboo Room in Florida closed its doors, which is a very, very famous blues club.  And as you know, in Canada it's even harder for blues artists to travel across Canada because of the enormous distances between clubs.

3574             So fewer and fewer artists are actually making the trek out to blues clubs and that deprives some of the clubs of some really, really good artists.  That's one reason.

3575             The second reason there is no airplay.  There is no promotion so it's hard.  I mean if J.W. Jones does a concert at the Rainbow we will get some print media which will be very good because he is a local boy, but that's it.  We won't get any radio airplay and we could use it.  I wish there was more support of this music because people seem to like it.

3576             COMMISSIONER KATZ:  It's an anomaly.  People seem to like it and yet people aren't listening to it or attending venues where they are located.

3577             MR. LITWIN:  It's a chicken‑and‑the‑egg thing.  I mean people like the music when they are exposed to it.

3578             I will give you a good example.  One of my friends in the States organized a trip to Iraq to play for American servicemen.  He brought over four blues artists.  These are 18 to 24 year old kids who have never heard of blues and, yet, the Colonel of the Pentagon said this was the best concert they have had since Bob Hope.

3579             So when people here it actually they love it and that's why ‑‑ and advertisers know that.  They use a lot of blues in advertisements.  But it's hard on the commercial side to really get the momentum to really get this going.

3580             MR. EL‑CHANTIRY:  But can I add something, Mr. Chairman?

3581             And I think that's a good question, Commissioner, because the local bars and clubs it's not just with the blues they are struggling these days; with any other music, mainly as you know the smoking bylaw that's a very ‑‑ we know smoking is not something we will promote or we like to see, but as the City of Ottawa bylaw came in and then the provincial government bylaw banning smoking, smoking out in the patio has been banned and you have to smoke nine metres away from there ‑‑ really had an impact on the business.

3582             I am a businessman myself and I am a city councillor who tours quite often the market in the city for Ottawa and I can tell you most clubs they have tried to do the same thing.  Since the smoking ban became in effect it has hurt their business quite a bit.

3583             The only way we hear about the blues is actually during the festival and I know we get quite a bit of media coverage because we close all the roads and you can't use Laurier Street anymore and you can't use ‑‑ but that is just really a week out of the whole year where the Bluesfest is really known to the community, but not any other time unless if you are a late worker like myself and listen to the CBC Saturday evening.  I think for two hours they use that station for blues but any other time unless I missed something, I haven't really noticed the promotion of the blues music on our station.

3584             COMMISSIONER KATZ:  Mr. Litwin, do you think that if there was a blues station in Ottawa or in Canada it would have reciprocal benefits on the other radio stations that would pick up some blues music as well?

3585             MR. LITWIN:  I think so.  I mean I think ‑‑ I would love for this to show that there is actually a commercial viability here and, in fact, by working with people like me where I can do a lot of promotion, let alone advertising where I can really go and promote and have giveaways and make something exciting, that other people will catch on and notice that, hey, there is something there and there is something that really is engaging people in a meaningful way.

3586             COMMISSIONER KATZ:  Mr. El‑Chantiry, the benefit of them moving the Bluesfest from where you were to Lebreton Flats is I live just adjacent to Lebreton Flats.  So I can go to my balcony and really get a bandstand view of the music and everything.  So you can invite your friends to my place if you want to.

3587             MR. EL‑CHANTIRY:  I can assure you, you are going to have more friends this time. ‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

3588             COMMISSIONER KATZ:  Thank you very much.

3589             MR. EL‑CHANTIRY:  Thank you, sir.  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3590             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Gentlemen, thank you very much.

3591             MR. EL‑CHANTIRY:  Thank you for the opportunity, sir.

3592             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

3593             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

3594             We will now hear the presentation of Native Women's Association of Canada.

‑‑‑ Pause

3595             THE CHAIRPERSON:  At your convenience.

INTERVENTION

3596             MR. JACOBS:  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Native language spoken / Langue autochtone parlée

3597             MR. JACOBS:  My name is ‑‑ good morning.  My name is Rod Jacobs.  I am from Bkejwanong First Nation.

3598             This is Mallory Whiteduck from Kitigan Zibi.

3599             We would like to take this opportunity first to thank the creator for giving us this amazing opportunity to present here today.  We would also like to acknowledge and thank the Algonquin people for allowing us to speak in their traditional territory.

3600             We are here today to give our support to Capital FM who will provide around‑the‑clock coverage of news, community events and a diverse mix of music.

3601             The Native Women's Association of Canada was established in 1974.  It has 13 provincial/territorial member associations.

3602             As a collective the Native Women's Association of Canada aims to enhance, promote and foster the socioeconomic culture and political wellbeing of First Nations and Métis women across Canada.

3603             In aboriginal cultures we maintain balance through a holistic model that comes from the teachings of the medicine wheel.  In order to create this balance the four directions must align.  The directions that we take are called vision, relationship, knowledge and movement and at the Native Women's Association of Canada how we maintain that in our day‑to‑day operations are by addressing those directions through research, education, policy and sustainability.

3604             Through this holistic approach the Native Women's Association of Canada has developed Sisters in Spirit which addresses the gender racism leading to the death and abduction of many aboriginal women.

3605             The Sisters in Spirit initiative began in 2004 and is designed to improve human rights and address the high rate of murdered and missing aboriginal women that get little if any attention from the media and the justice system.  Through Sisters in Spirit the Native Women's Association of Canada will increase the public's understanding and knowledge of these issues through researching trends and root causes, through driving policy through the federal government and educating Canadians through focused strategies.

3606             One of our focused strategies is the Sisters in Spirit vigil that will take place on October 4th here in Canada's capital.  This is an opportunity for recognizing and honouring all of the aboriginal women that have left us as a result of either being murdered or that remain missing and unresolved.

3607             By creating awareness through media outlets means that aboriginal people need opportunities to advance in careers that focus on communication.  Capital FM is working with Algonquin College and Carleton University to provide these types of opportunities through a yearly scholarship program.  This contribution will increase the number of qualified aboriginal women within broadcast journalism that will continue to create systemic change by diversifying the industry.

3608             The Native Women's Association applauds Capital FM; as the increased number of aboriginal peoples in the National Capital Region continues to grow so does the need for adequate educational solutions.

3609             When we talk about solutions the Native Women's Association of Canada continues to work on employment and training, continues to work on health issues, Sisters in Spirit and some international work.

3610             Additionally, we must address issues facing our young people and create grassroots‑driven strategies that will bridge the gap between aboriginal and non‑aboriginal peoples.

3611             The youth of NWAC participate in all activities of the organization and focus on issues affecting aboriginal young women in Canada.  In particular, the Native Women's Association Youth Council presently created a violence prevention toolkit and delivers workshops across the country.  This toolkit that was developed by our youth, our young women, focuses on domestic violence, sexual assault, date violence, emotional violence and bullying.

3612             With the aboriginal population growing at twice the rate of the general Canadian population and with a high percentage of the aboriginal people under 30, it is important for Canadians to hear the voice of the aboriginal young women in Canada.

3613             Aboriginal young women face increasing barriers when it comes to postsecondary education.  The Native Women's Association of Canada attempts to remove these types of barriers by providing opportunities like the Helen Bassett Commemorative Scholarship.  Although these scholarships are minimal they do provide young women with hope, which is what Helen Bassett attempted to do.  After befriending an aboriginal artist and learning through him about the plight of aboriginal people she became passionate about the issues and had special concern for the advancement of aboriginal women.

3614             Every year the Native Women's Association of Canada Youth Council awards four scholarships in the amount of $1,000.  Capital FM is making a similar contribution but on a larger scale.  The Native Women's Association plans to work with Capital FM to develop this criteria that will see a number of scholarships given out in the areas of broadcast journalism and music studies.  As a result, Capital FM plans to make a cash contribution of $50,000 per year for the next seven years to the Native Women's Association of Canada.  These upstanding corporate citizens make Canada what it is today, diverse.

3615             In addition to advancing aboriginal women in education Capital FM will also provide the Native Women's Association of Canada with an avenue to promote our events like the Sisters in Spirit vigil that will take place on October 4th; highlight our news; give our young emerging artists a venue and give Canadians a better understanding of aboriginal women.

3616             On behalf of the Native Women's Association of Canada we support Capital FM.

3617             Thank you.  Meg'wich.

3618             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Jacobs and Ms Whiteduck.

3619             Obviously, there are natives living in the Ottawa area particularly surely there are women, natives, living here.  What is the interest of these women regarding the Capital radio project?  Have you talked to them about what Mr. Maheu is contemplating broadcasting and will it be an attractive radio service for them?

3620             MR. JACOBS:  Anytime that aboriginal people and especially women in particular get an opportunity to be part of something, which is what Capital FM is attempting to do by providing or engaging our support, it empowers them to be part of not only the overall society but to get the messages out.  We found that a number of our young women do listen to this type of music and Capital FM is within their target demographic and really, because of our issues and the things that happened within our organization, it's important to have radio stations especially that are live.

3621             With Capital FM planning to go live the way they are planning 24 hours, it's important for us because murdered and missing women don't just go missing during the workday.  You know, if we have something that happens at two a.m., and me as a former broadcaster know the voice tracking that takes place, you don't get that message out.  We can't react.  This gives us an avenue to react immediately especially in Canada's capital.

3622             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are yourself working in the broadcasting industry?

3623             MR. JACOBS:  I used to ‑‑ I am a former student or a graduate of Loyalist College so I have moved on through different radio stations in Ontario and the U.S.

3624             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And now you are doing some association work?

3625             MR. JACOBS:  Certainly, yes.  I have worked with national organizations before, really trying to ‑‑ I know that Canada has implemented steps of addressing aboriginal issues, especially through media outlets and we appreciate that.  Unfortunately, the resources that many national organizations face are not able to make these types of presentations in support of radio stations or media outlets that are doing the work that Capital FM is proposing to do.

3626             And with my background in sports and broadcasting it's important for the Native Women's Association of Canada to be able to provide that voice here, especially because we are dealing with very sensitive material that at any given moment we need to react very quickly.

3627             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, are you getting support from other broadcaster organizations?

3628             MR. JACOBS:  It's very difficult.  The support is up and down.  It's not something that's stable.  Again, that comes with lack of resources and the education.

3629             When we talk about racism one of the big things that we are focusing on is educating Canadians about aboriginal women and aboriginal people in general so that we can bridge that gap that is the education component.  And once we do that we feel that more radio stations like Capital FM will be approaching not only the Native Women's Association of Canada but other national aboriginal organizations or provincial and territorial organizations to make an impact.

3630             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, we already heard this morning another aboriginal ‑‑ the Aboriginal Media organization.  So I am aware that there are many groups that are soliciting the broadcasting industry and always pleased to hear that they are attentive and they are responding through various means to support the activities of the various aboriginal organizations because we have great faith that we could develop your communities.

3631             MR. JACOBS:  Well, we do appreciate the great support.  And as a former broadcaster myself, and who knows where I will end up next because I love the industry, it is important that the diversification of the industry is there and more aboriginal people get the opportunity like Capital FM is proposing to partake in media.

3632             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Jacobs.  Thank you very much, Ms Whiteduck.

3633             We will take another 15‑minute break.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1107 / Suspension à 1107

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1143 / Reprise à 1143

3634             THE SECRETARY:  We will now hear the presentation of Mr. Robert Du Broy in support of Fiston Kalambay Mutombo's application.

3635             You have ten minutes for your presentation.  Thank you.

INTERVENTION

3636             M. DU BROY:  Bonjour, Monsieur le Président, Messieurs les Commissaires et membres de l'effectif du CRTC.

3637             Je me présente devant vous deux fois de file, aujourd'hui.  Alors, il faut faire la distinction entre les deux interventions.

3638             Pour commencer, je me présente en tant que citoyen privé et aussi à titre de père d'un étudiant de l'École secondaire de La Salle et étudiants de l'Université d'Ottawa et du Collège de la Cité, mes trois enfants francophones, qui aimeraient bien pour autant, vivre leur foi en français.

3639             Et ce qui aiderait beaucoup à le faire, ça serait d'avoir un poste de radio chrétien qui offrirait de la musique francophone.  Et c'est ce que présente comme projet monsieur Kalambay.  Alors, j'appuie à plein coeur son projet et je serais de sa cote d'écoute, à la fin, si vous octroyez cette licence.

3640             Vous avez sûrement entendu le même chant à plusieurs reprises.  Les musiciens Blues revendiquent leur temps d'antenne; il y a sûrement un auditoire pour le format « AAA » et là, je viens en ajouter à votre assiette, malheureusement.

3641             C'est que les musiciens chrétiens francophones également aimeraient bien avoir une place sur les ondes.  J'en connais beaucoup.

3642             Luc Dumont, en particulier; j'aime beaucoup sa musique.  Je l'ai entendue à plusieurs concerts.

3643             Le trio Richard Toupin, par exemple.  Richard était membre de la formation de Robert Charlebois.  Et là, on l'a perdu de vue.

3644             Pourquoi?  Est‑ce qu'il a perdu sa passion pour la musique?

3645             Bien, tout à fait au contraire; il chante pour le Seigneur, alors sa passion est encore plus forte.  Mais on n'entend plus parler de lui parce que c'est plus de la musique populaire, dans un sens ‑‑ dans le style toujours populaire, mais les chants du Seigneur.

3646             Alors voilà, on n'entend plus parler de Richard Toupin.

3647             Localement, il y a également Jocelyn Galipeau, qui fait de la musique, qui fait des concerts.  J'aimerais bien que mes enfants sachent là où il va jouer.

3648             Nous, chaque année, on va à un grand festival près de Buffalo, qui s'appelle Kingdom Bound.  Et là, il y a 30 000, 40 000 fanatiques de la musique chrétienne qui y vont.  Il y a parmi ces gens‑là des francophones aussi, mais ils connaissent très mal les gens qui chantent dans leur propre langue.  Alors, ça serait bien d'avoir un poste ici qui offrirait cette possibilité‑là.

3649             Alors, vous avez l'occasion, peut‑être, d'offrir à la population outaouaise un poste de radio chrétienne qui mettra en vedette les chanteurs chrétiens francophones.  C'est évidemment une décision difficile, parce que vous avez beaucoup de requérantes devant vous.  Mais je dois souligner que cette musique‑là, ces chants‑là, ont des thèmes qui portent sur l'éternel, pas sur l'éphémère.

3650             Alors, on parle des vertus, on parle du pardon, on parle de reconnaître son Créateur et son Sauveur et on espère célébrer cette reconnaissance.  On parle du respect des autres, de la discipline, du respect de soi, du don de soi, de la charité, toutes des choses qui seraient très bien pour rebâtir notre société.  Un comportement responsable, par exemple.

3651             Alors, ce qui lève devant vous...  Malheureusement, les autres postes véhiculent des thèmes qui ne sont pas nécessairement aussi positifs.  J'ai demandé qu'on circule un article qui a paru il y a paru il y a deux mois dans le Citizen : « A third of hit songs talk about drugs and alcohol, study finds. »

3652             C'est très sérieux, l'affaire.  Si on prend ces sujets‑là à la légère, ceux que... captent les enfants comme message, c'est que c'est tout à fait acceptable.  Il y a un chant que j'entends chez moi de temps en temps, je n'aime pas du tout ça, mais...  Je pense que ça s'appelle « On Drugs », et bien sûr que c'est drôle, mais si on ne présente pas une opinion contraire, les jeunes vont simplement accepter que c'est la norme.

3653             Et pour les deux tiers des autres grands succès, je vous présente la probabilité que ce sont des chants qui portent sur des thèmes de relations sexuelles illicites.  Et encore là, nos jeunes, qui sont susceptibles à ces messages‑là tombent dans ce qu'un chrétien appellerait le péché.

3654             Mais on sait aussi que ces péchés‑là ont des conséquences sociales assez sérieuses.  Alors, soit la drogue, l'alcool, la stupémanie en général ou la sensualité, ça mène à une vie de désespoir.

3655             Alors, ce que ces chants‑ci offrent, c'est l'espoir, c'est la capacité de bâtir une société sur des principaux vitaux :  l'amour, l'amour de soi, le respect de soi, le respect de son autrui, mais aussi, une compréhension de son Créateur et une volonté de suivre, finalement, son Créateur.

3656             Mais je reviens à un aspect particulier, ce sont des thèmes musicaux, c'est présenté de façon positive, c'est présenté sur des airs tout à fait agréables, la qualité de la production est excellente.  Et vous savez sûrement que les gens peuvent se créer un studio dans leur sous‑sol pour 10 000 $ avec l'équipement au point et ça...  Et c'est de la musique incroyablement bonne.

3657             Mais là, ça prend... il faut déboucher.  C'est‑à‑dire ça prend une plateforme pour ça, ça prend un poste de radio.

3658             Alors, je suis ici pour appuyer à plein coeur le projet de Fiston Kalambay et j'espère que vous allez tenir ça en compte de vue, quand viendra votre décision.  Merci.

3659             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Merci, Monsieur Du Broy.  Peut‑être que les autres requérants qui sont ici aujourd'hui, quand ils viendront en réplique, se porteront volontaire pour jouer davantage de musique chrétienne.  On verra ce qu'ils ont à nous dire.

3660             M. DU BROY:  C'est souhaitable.

3661             LE PRÉSIDENT:  C'est souhaitable.

3662             On va...  Je pense que madame la secrétaire va vous repré...

3663             Monsieur Morin voudrait poser une question.  Puis après ça, madame la secrétaire vous représentera à nouveau.

3664             CONSEILLER MORIN:  Oui, vous parlez beaucoup des jeunes.  Est‑ce que vous pensez que la radio est le meilleur moyen de rejoindre les jeunes, actuellement?  Parce que les jeunes sont beaucoup sur l'Internet, par les temps qui courent.

3665             M. DU BROY:  C'est juste.  Mais ce projet‑ci est vraiment visé à toute la population, donc pas seulement les jeunes.

3666             Mais c'est une question d'offre et de demande.  Si des gens...  Même les artistes populaires, maintenant, qui sont distribués surtout à l'Internet, ils viennent à être connus en tant qu'artistes à la radio et les gens ont alors l'occasion d'explorer tout leur catalogue en ligne.

3667             Alors, ça prend une percée initiale, qui est souvent la radio.  Même si, selon les statistiques, les jeunes...

3668             Alors que la moyenne de la population serait peut‑être de 18 heures à l'écoute de la radio ‑‑ et les jeunes, eux, en bas de quinze ans, disons ‑‑ sont plus comme aux sept ou 8 heures, peut‑être la moitié de la moyenne.

3669             ... reste que si c'est joué dans la maison, les jeunes sont exposés.  Et beaucoup d'heures d'écoute sont faites sur les petits récepteurs dans la cuisine et en voyage, sur le... à la boîte et dans la voiture.  Alors, en tournée familiale, ils sont exposés.  Et ils viendront à connaître ces gens‑là.

3670             Mais encore là, c'est... je veux dire, je n'ai pas de statistiques devant moi et je suis certain que le même chant est chanté par plein de gens.  Alors, c'est ma perception, du moins.  Et dans ma famille, ça se passe de même.

3671             CONSEILLER MORIN:  Merci.

3672             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Merci.

3673             Madame la Secrétaire?

3674             LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci.

3675             Now you can make your presentation, your intervention on behalf of Christian Hit Radio, the existing station.  You have ten minutes.

3676             Thank you.

INTERVENTION

3677             MR. DU BROY:  Thank you again.  So I will say good morning once more.

3678             So I am here representing CHRI‑FM now, because although Christian Hit Radio Inc. is an applicant at these proceedings, we are an existing broadcaster in this market at 99.1 MHz.

3679             I would like to register our concerns now on the possibility that there be another broadcaster in this market at 99.7 MHz once you have rendered your decision.

3680             Our concerns are summed up in Appendix 1 of the document we gave to you at the beginning of these proceedings after the dividing page in colour, if you have that in front of you.

3681             That page shows the four other applicants, not the Christian Hit Radio Inc. applicant, for the 99.7 MHz frequency:  Evanov, Information Radio, Mark Maheu and Astral.  We didn't get data from all of these applicants on the 115 DBU and the 80 and 100 DBU contours, but it is a rule of thumb that where there is a 30 DBU difference in third adjacent signals there is a good likelihood of third adjacency interference.

3682             Because of particular weaknesses in our signal at 99.1 MHz in the centre of the city in particular, that 30 DBU difference in practical terms will be encountered probably more often than we are expecting just looking at the contours.

3683             We are concerned about those applications because of the weaknesses I have discussed.

3684             One of those weaknesses, if we look at Appendix 2, I have drawn a diagram for you in crayon, mostly because our consulting engineer charges by the hour, so I have done it myself.  The horizontal scale is one scale, the vertical scale is a different scale, but there are two scales in each of those axes.

3685             So if you look at Appendix 2 you will see we have a transmitter at Herbert Corner, which is a little bit south of Greely.  That is 21 kilometres from downtown and our average ERP is 25,300 watts.

3686             Because of the escarpment just south of the city at Hunt Club, we don't have line of sight with our signal to the city core.  So that puts the whole of the densely populated city in the shadow of our signal.

3687             Now, that wouldn't usually be so terrible.  It is not ideal, but it wouldn't be fatal if it weren't for the mountains around Camp Fortune.  The Gatineau Hills are reflecting back our signal, and we are getting multipath interference right where the population is greatest, in the downtown area.

3688             So our signal is ‑‑ again, you have heard this song before by another broadcaster.  Our signal is impaired, but it is a reality.

3689             I drive around Ottawa and I get a better reception in Perth and in Wakefield than I do in downtown Ottawa, or even where the buildings aren't so high.  We are getting picket fencing, we are getting dropout, we are getting swish, hiss, static, all of those nasty things.

3690             So it is a combination of distance from Ottawa, being in the shadow of the escarpment south of Ottawa and in particular the multipathing effect from the reflections of our same signal coming back from the Gatineau Hills.

3691             Now I want to contrast that, if I may.  The second picture there is Majic 100 which has a nice line of sight shot at Ottawa, right from Camp Fortune at only 12 kilometres away.

3692             The Evanov signal at 98.5 is also line of sight to Ottawa from George Street, from the downtown area, so very nice coverage.  "Un bel éclairage", as we say in French of the downtown area, because it is line of sight, even though it is not at a very high power.

3693             We complained about this weakness and our concern about interference from a proposed third adjacent signal to the Commission and to Industry Canada before The Jewel was licensed at 98.5 with a transmitter on George Street.

3694             As I mentioned, it is line of sight to the densely populated area where our signal is weakest.

3695             As we feared, the day they went on the air several listeners called to complain that they could no longer receive our signal at 99.1 MHz.  Although Evanov was very good at going out and resolving the complaints they received, we know that people tend to be passive; they tend not to complain.  And many of our listeners just moved on.  They found somewhere else on the dial.

3696             In particular, this affects receiving devices that are not highly discriminating, so boomboxes and in particular clock radios, likely where most people would listen when they wake up in the morning or listen to the radio around the breakfast table.  This is where we reach people.

3697             Radio's prime time, radio's prime time is the morning drive.  That is when people get up and if they hear a loud station next to ours, they will go away.  And that is what has happened.

3698             The integrity of our protected coverage area has been compromised since The Jewel went on the air at 98.5, and now we face the possibility of further signal degradation by a third adjacent station at 99.7 MHz.

3699             Astral is a particular situation because they have chosen to co‑site their proposed transmitter with CHRI‑FM's transmitter in Greely, which is admirable.

3700             Just as a footnote to that ‑‑ and I know we haven't filed an official intervention against, but the signal they are proposing is twice the power of CHRI‑FM's and a lot of our listeners are in Greely.  When I go to Parkway Road Pentecostal Church, their parking lot is full of CHRI‑FM bumper stickers, more than I see at any other church.  And they are in the shadow of our transmitter at Herbert Corners.

3701             Again, with a radio receiver that doesn't discriminate very well between signals like a clock radio, having a station twice the power of ours at a third adjacent location I think will be problematic.

3702             So I ask that you take into consideration Christian Hit Radio Inc. as an existing broadcaster when you make your licensing decision.

3703             I thank you, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Commission, for allowing me to share these concerns.

3704             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Du Broy.

3705             Obviously we also rely on our own engineers to appraise these concerns.  I know that multipath is surely a big issue everywhere and for everybody.  The only thing I could say at this stage is that we have been briefed before coming to the hearing and we will surely pay close attention to these issues during our deliberations.

3706             Thank you very much.

3707             MR. DU BROY:  Thank you, sir.

3708             COMMISSIONER KATZ:  Can I just ask you one question?

3709             In reading over your interventions on all three parties, or to all three parties, you state in paragraph 2, I think, in each one of them ‑‑ and I will quote:

"We believe we lost many listeners who did not seek the remedy of asking The Jewel ..."

3710             Or IIS, or whoever.

"... to put filters on their receivers' antennas."  (As read)

3711             Where does the onus lie in asking for that?

3712             MR. DU BROY:  That lies with the listener, I would imagine.  Certainly Evanov has been very responsive to the complaints they received, admittedly.

3713             One of the challenges is the last one in rule is a fine rule in principle, because the last one in should resolve difficulties experienced by these broadcasters who are already established.  But in practice, the last one in rule doesn't always help existing broadcasters because we also have lost out on potential listeners who have moved to Ottawa since then and who couldn't find us on the dial.

3714             Anyway, I'm not exactly answering your question, but the onus is on the existing listener.

3715             Unfortunately, having a third adjacent interference situation does compromise future listeners.

3716             COMMISSIONER KATZ:  What is involved in putting filters on receivers' antennas?  Is it a physical labour‑intensive process?

3717             MR. DU BROY:  There are a few approaches to remedying the problem.  A broadcaster like Evanov could send an engineer out and either put a filter in line to filter out, in this example, 98.5.  So it would be called a notch filter.  It allows other frequencies but not that frequency.

3718             Another common solution is to replace the existing receiving unit with a digital one or something far more expensive and discriminating so they could find the third adjacent station more easily.  There would probably be a little bit of help setting up the antenna, maybe a dipole antenna near a window so that the reception could be better.

3719             COMMISSIONER KATZ:  So if people had one of those dial radios, alarm clock radios or whatever it is, if they went out and bought a digital radio that would solve the problem?

3720             MR. DU BROY:  If they are able.  I gave you the example of Zita Hagen yesterday who is 78 years old.  She is not going to do that.  She will ask a nephew maybe, can you go to The Source, get a digital receiver, get a dipole antenna, put it in the window and then I can pull in my favourite station again.

3721             The solution is possible, but not everyone is capable of implementing it.

3722             COMMISSIONER KATZ:  In Jewel's response to your intervention, dated November 15, 2007, in paragraph 3 they state:

"There is no reason CHRI could not relocate to a downtown location."

3723             Is that a true statement?

3724             MR. DU BROY:  No.  I disagree profoundly with that.

3725             There was a misunderstanding I think on the part of The Jewel as to our purpose for applying for 99.7.  It is not to supplement the coverage of our existing signal; it is for whole new station.

3726             So offering as a possibility relocating to George Street is not an option.

3727             As I mentioned in Appendix 2, our ERP is over 25,000 watts out of Greely and we are getting coverage ‑‑ we have listeners in Wakefield, we have listeners in Winchester, in Chesterville, we have listeners in Perth and Smiths Falls.  We would not be able to reach those people from a building top location in downtown Ottawa.

3728             We do not want to betray those listeners by relocating our transmitter.  So that's not a practical solution.

3729             COMMISSIONER KATZ:  Okay.  Thank you.

3730             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Du Broy.

3731             Madam Secretary...?

3732             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

3733             We will now hear the presentation of CFRC‑FM Radio Queen's University.

‑‑‑ Pause

3734             THE SECRETARY:  Please introduce yourself and you have 10 minutes.

INTERVENTION

3735             MR. BEERS:  Yes.  Good morning.  Thank you for allowing me to address you in person today.

3736             My name is Eric Beers and I am the Operations Officer at CFRC 101.9 FM broadcasting from Kingston.

3737             I requested to appear today to address the applications for the use of 101.9 in Ottawa.  Note that we are not opposed to the creation of a new station. However, we ask you to consider the impact of any such proposed station at 101.9 FM on adjacent markets, including our own.

3738             We are here to introduce CFRC, discuss the application submitted by the Corus Radio Company and Frank Torres on behalf of a corporation yet to be incorporated and propose solutions to our concerns.

3739             We have no objection to the application by Astro Media.

3740             CFRC is the oldest university affiliated station in Canada and one of the oldest stations of any kind, commencing broadcasting from Queen's in 1922.  CFRC has been a consistent developer of Canadian cultural talent, including Lorne Greene, Atlantis Film's Michael MacMillan, Shelagh Rogers, TSN's Chris Cuthbert, Corus' Chris Harvey, CHUM's Matthew Bisson and Ottawa Morning's Stuart Mills.

3741             In doing so, we have fulfilled one of the roles that the CRTC envisions for campus‑based community radio, ultimately benefiting commercial broadcasters and the CBC.

3742             Recently we began a community funding drive to help make up budget shortfalls.  Despite predictions of results from $2,000 to $5,000 our first effort produced $11,000; our second $16,000; and our most recent campaign yielded an impressive $21,000.

3743             Of this amount, listeners living in Kingston's outlying areas donated approximately 15 per cent.

3744             Kingston's amalgamated borders have a population of 117,000.  We are the only community‑based campus radio station in an over 100 kilometre radius from Kingston.  CFRC provides listeners with a distinct voice, offering a diverse range of music, news, spoken word, entertainment and sports programming that is 86 per cent locally produced, volunteer produced.  This includes programs featuring local music and news, native issues, women's issues and social justice.  We have a volunteer base of over 130 individuals.  CFRC is an important source of local French and third language content, including programs in Portuguese, Spanish and Cantonese.

3745             While this essential content might be widely available in larger urban areas, it is seldom delivered in rural areas.  CFRC is the only local source of this content and Kingston's outlying communities benefit from CFRC's commitment to broadcast it.  Without us, these linguistic communities would have no representation in the local broadcast spectrum.

3746             It has been a long‑standing goal of CFRC to increase our broadcasting power.  An increase would offer protection for our listeners currently falling outside our protected circle.  It would respond to continued growth of the Queen's community and the corresponding increase in geographic area its members inhabit.

3747             It is important to allow CFRC's protected parameters to increase to ensure that this community has access to CFRC.  We are concerned that the applications in these proceedings could limit our ability to achieve this.

3748             CFRC started fundraising to achieve this increase four and a half years ago.  However, as a not‑for‑profit corporation, we must approach this as a long‑term project.  We ask that the Commission recognize the inherent disadvantage in considering these applications.

3749             I will now turn to our concern with the Corus application.

3750             If approved with the proposed technical parameters, Corus' station will limit access to our signal for a percentage of our current listening audience through signal interference in the areas northeast of Kingston.  This audience will not have access to any other community broadcaster.  Corus' revised briefs show the proposed interfering contour coming within 1.5 kilometres of CFRC's protected area.  While meeting Industry Canada requirements and not interfering with CFRC's protected contours, this will still deny a portion of CFRC's existing listenership access to our signal.

3751             Communities in the region include Westport, Lansdowne, Sharbot Lake, whose struggle with uranium mining developers CFRC has extensively covered, Newboro, Tichborne and Charleston Lake.

3752             Lacking the resources to survey the surrounding area, we informed our listeners of these proceedings and their possible impact on our signal.  The resulting letters to the CRTC from listeners outside our protected area confirm our listenership in these areas and indicate their appreciation of CFRC and concern over this issue.

3753             Our listeners received notice only 10 days before the submission deadline, so we regard the 12 submissions as significant.

3754             These included two from businesses located outside of Kingston and one from former CRTC Chair, John Meisel from Tichborne, Ontario.

3755             We also heard from other listeners who encountered difficulty with the submission process.

3756             Corus' April 28th reply to our intervention states that they received a number of opposing interventions from individuals who are under the mistaken belief that the Corus radio Ottawa/Gatineau proposal will interfere with CFRC.  In fact, nine of the 12 letters at issue represent people living in the areas whose reception of CFRC could be eliminated by Corus' proposal.

3757             Corus' initial letter to Industry Canada referred to its original area of interference as occurring in an area of little or no population.  In fact, this area includes towns, villages and populated agricultural land.  These people constitute a valuable part of CFRC's listenership.  If they are economically insignificant to Corus, then it should not be averse to making technical amendments to grant these listeners continued access to CFRC.

3758             Corus' January 25th letter to the CRTC states that this signal ‑‑ their signal ‑‑ could be significantly improved through a subsequent technical amendment that would improve the 3 mV per meter contour in Ottawa West, western Québec, as well as Ottawa South.  If Corus is relying on future technical amendments to ensure their economic viability, there is potential for even greater negative impact on CFRC listeners as the amendments could affect areas northeast of Kingston.

3759             We hope a compromise can be reached so that listeners in these areas don't lose the only community radio service available to them.

3760             We also hope that Corus understands the value of our service and will express a desire to work cooperatively so that our service and theirs can coexist without negative repercussions for our listeners.  We have approached Corus about this but have been unable to agree on a solution.

3761             To address the concerns, we suggest the following solutions.  If the Commission decides to grant Corus a licence, we request either (a) the inclusion by the Commission of a condition of licence requiring Corus to:

3762             (i) work cooperatively with CFRC to ensure both stations can coexist with minimal impact on CFRC's existing listeners and consider decreasing its power output in the direction of Kingston if that occurs;

3763             (ii) refrain from opposing a future power increase by CFRC and be amenable to minor technical amendments, if needed, to enable this upgrade to occur; or an explicit statement by the Commission in its licensing decision that strongly encourages Corus to take the above‑noted actions.

3764             With regard to Frank Torres' application, we are happy to note that the revised briefs addressed most of our concerns with their original application.

3765             Our remaining concerns are as follows: Since Frank Torres' application did not submit comments on the effects of its revised technical parameters on its original business plan:

3766             (1) we are concerned that the decrease in the size of the applicant's proposed listening audience will eventually force the applicant to apply for a power increase to ensure its financial viability;

3767             (2) any future power increase could renew CFRC's original concerns about interference in the area outside of Kingston.

3768             Frank Torres (OBCI), if licensed, has offered this in writing.  Frank Torres (OBCI) would be more than willing to consult CFRC and its engineers in the event of a future power upgrade, the goal being not to interfere with the potential power increase by CFRC and resultant possible interference between Kingston and Ottawa.

3769             In addition, they have offered to direct some of their CCD contributions to us if the Commission does not accept their original plans.

3770             Their offer would alleviate the concerns I described, provided consultation is approached cooperatively and in good faith.  But we ask for the Commission's support to assure CFRC that it will be upheld.  Without this, CFRC as a not‑for‑profit entity would not have the means to enforce a private promise and would have no recourse if Frank Torres (OBCI) did not follow through.

3771             So if the Commission chooses to award a licence to Frank Torres (OBCI), we request an explicit statement in the licensing decision that strongly encourages Frank Torres to fulfil their stated commitment to cooperate with CFRC, as I have described.

3772             With regard to both Corus and Frank Torres, we also ask that the Commission strongly encourage the successful applicant to provide financial assistance to CFRC to achieve a power increase in order to protect its existing listeners and ensure that compatible technical parameters can be found.

3773             The Broadcasting Act states that a healthy Canadian broadcasting system is comprised of public, commercial and community broadcasters.  The CRTC has frequently stated its support for community broadcasters and noted the important role we play in Canadian society.  Given spectrum scarcity, we believe the Commission should be proactive in maintaining a healthy community broadcasting sector.

3774             If underfunded community broadcasters must compete for airspace with commercial applicants without strong support from the CRTC, we fear the further marginalization and disappearance of a valuable public resource.

3775             We hope you understand our concerns and ensure that the licensing decisions for the Ottawa market will not adversely impact the work of CFRC.

3776             I would like to thank you for our consideration.

3777             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Morin.

3778             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  Yes.  I understand that your main concern is with Corus or both?

3779             MR. BEERS:  I would say that our main concern is with the Corus application at this time, yes.

3780             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  Do you think that there is a solution which is viable, technically viable, and at what cost?

3781             MR. BEERS:  As I have sort of stated in the presentation, I think the solution is simply a pledge to work cooperatively if problems come up.  We can't know ‑‑ I am not here to assert that problems will happen, but they are potentially there.

3782             And if they come up, I suspect that we could work together to try to find some solutions.

3783             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  Especially as the future is concerned, because you want to increase your power eventually.

3784             MR. BEERS:  We would like to do that, yes, and have begun saving money for that, yes.

3785             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  Is it a real possibility?

3786             MR. BEERS:  Yes, it is a real possibility.

3787             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  You were talking about some population who will be affected eventually if you increase your power.

3788             What is the population numbers of those?

3789             MR. BEERS:  I don't have the resources to put together population numbers for these areas.  In the context of community broadcasting, these types of things are not typically at issue for us.  Our role in the broadcasting spectrum is to service the underserviced and to service the areas and the people that it is not economically viable for commercial radio or that the public broadcaster isn't servicing.

3790             So, you know, numbers are not ‑‑ population numbers are not an essential thing for us because we are a not‑for‑profit corporation.

3791             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  But it is important certainly to ‑‑

3792             MR. BEERS:  Certainly.  I mean, I listed the towns that popped up to me, towns where I know people have approached me that they live in and that they enjoy our signal.

3793             I didn't include Mallorytown, but we have one letter from a gentleman in Mallorytown.

3794             You know, these towns range in population from 3,000 to 800.  They are speckled all around the area.

3795             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  So at the end the population of all those little towns?

3796             MR. BEERS:  I wouldn't estimate or guess, but maybe 15,000, 20,000 people.

3797             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

3798             MR. BEERS:  Thank you.

3799             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The only comment I could make is regarding your paragraph 14 where you are concerned about the possibility that Frank Torres eventually seeks an increase in power.

3800             It has to be approved by the Commission, so it would mean that they would have to apply, get certification from Industry Canada and you would be obviously warned that they have done such a filing and there will be a public process.

3801             So that is a potential eventuality.  The Commission cannot take that into consideration in its deliberations.

3802             MR. BEERS:  I understand.

3803             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Beers.

3804             MR. BEERS:  Thank you.

3805             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

3806             We will now hear the intervention from The Jewel.

‑‑‑ Pause

3807             THE CHAIRPERSON:  When you are ready, Mr. Evanov.

INTERVENTION

3808             MR. EVANOV:  Thank you, Mr. Chair, Commissioners, Commission staff.

3809             Ottawa Media Inc. is here on behalf of The Jewel 98.5 today to intervene against the Astral application for Eve.

3810             My name is Bill Evanov and here with me today is Carmela Laurignano and Debra MacLaughlin from Strategic Inc.

3811             Contrary to Astral's claims during their presentation in‑chief, Eve will have a significant negative impact on The Jewel.  Proof of this negative impact can be found both in Astral's own application as filed, as well as the review of four weeks of spin data submitted to BBS.

3812             Let's start with Astral's own filing.

3813             As part of its application, Astral filed a sample playlist for Eve.  A copy of that playlist is attached to the intervention.

3814             As you will see, the playlist identifies 36 songs which Eve would play during different parts of the day, morning and afternoon drive and evening.  Thirty‑three of those 36 songs are currently played on The Jewel.  This represents 92 per cent duplication in songs, a far cry from the 20 per cent duplication Astral referred to in its appearance before the Commission.

3815             In addition, The Jewel also undertook a BDS analysis over a time period spanning four weeks, April 9th to May 5th, 2008.  Using the submitted playlist from the Eve application, we determined that over a four week period the duplication between The Jewel and the Astral proposal on tracks only was over 50 per cent.

3816             Again, this is a far cry from Astral's claim of 20 per cent duplication, a claim that Astral admits was based on a meagre six‑hour sample of The Jewel.

3817             What is particularly important to note about a duplication analysis on a service like The Jewel is that unlike chart driven formats, duplication on The Jewel must be examined over time.  When we look at the proposal from Eve, we can see that just on The Jewel alone, not taking into account crossover with Majic, duplication with The Jewel occurs for the vast majority of the selections they propose.

3818             The Jewel was also described by Astral as being an exclusively adult standard station.  Again, this was based on Astral's limited six‑hour snapshot of The Jewel.

3819             But when we turn to BDS data to get a more accurate reliable picture, using the Era analysis available through BDS software, we can demonstrate conclusively how little of what we play on The Jewel is in fact adult standards.

3820             Over the same four‑week period, April 9th to May 5th, The Jewel spins were divided across Eras as follows:  pre‑1969 represented 10 per cent; the 70s, 32 per cent; the 80s, 14 per cent; the 90s, 16 per cent; and 2000 and plus, the newer, almost 30 per cent.

3821             We can refine this even further using the percentage breakdown as between adult standards and other genres of music.  Again, from the same dataset we find that only 13.7 per cent are adult standards; 3.4 per cent country rock; 11.8 per cent ‑‑ sorry, 33.4 per cent are country and 11.8 per cent rock; and pop, AC, AC Gold is 71 per cent.

3822             Clearly limiting the definition of The Jewel to adult standards is to ignore the vast majority of our playlist.

3823             Regardless of the breakdown across Eras or specific genres, the feel of The Jewel is comforting, familiar, and if you were to review our application from 2004 and our hearing transcripts, you will find that many of the very same phrases we used to describe The Jewel back then were repeated yesterday by Astral in describing Eve, right to how the service is a perfect companion to a glass of wine.

3824             Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, it is quite clear that Eve will have an impact on The Jewel.  Its playlist duplicates ours and its positioning as comfort radio will inevitably attract the same core audience The Jewel continues to target.

3825             MS LAURIGNANO:  I would like to turn to Astral's assertion that our target audience is 55‑plus.

3826             We did describe in our presentation in chief that the signal limitations we experience have resulted in an audience distribution that is much different than originally intended.  The median age of The Jewel as proposed in 2004 was 53.  The median age we deliver is 62.

3827             When we test the music for Jewel, we find that the most favourable responses come from the 47‑to‑54 age groups.  It was never our intention to exclusively target a 60‑plus audience as Astral claimed.  Our business plan was predicated on having audience in the critically important 45‑to‑54 years of age and 55‑to‑64.  We did expect to even draw some hours of tuning from the 35‑to‑44 age groups.

3828             That we have been able to achieve only modest success in these demos has severely limited our ability to generate revenues.  If you look at our most recent BBM books, our share is almost right on where we projected it.  However, because the bulk of the numbers contributing to the share are derived from an older demographic, we cannot translate audience into revenue.

3829             If we did in fact rely on adult standards for the core of our playlist, we would expect that the audience would be older.  But, as Bill has described, we do not.  The Jewel's brand is softer music principally targeting a 45‑to‑64 female audience.  We incorporate several Eras, including some current and a significant portion of post‑2000.

3830             If Eve is allowed to enter this market and draw listeners from the lower end of our demographic, our median age will climb even higher.  As much as we believe in the strength of our format and the attractiveness of the music we choose, we contend that a strong, reliable signal will trump good music on a bad signal every time.

3831             If, as Astral has pointed out so succinctly, our demographics are very old, what will happen if a commuter friendly, easily received signal comes into the market mirroring in whole or in part our brand and our program offering?

3832             It stands to reason that The Jewel will be in an even worse situation than it currently is.

3833             MR. EVANOV:  The threat Eve poses cannot be emphasized enough.  When we add the impact of the Eve to Radio Nord's RNC's proposal to convert its Category 3 to a Category 2 easy listening format, we have a real concern.

3834             We sit with 485 watts in what will be the middle of a 10,000 watt powerhouse and a 12,000 watt powerhouse both programming easy listening music.  As a proposed new easy listening station in the market, Radio Nord is adding an English music library with titles listed in their application that provide over 60 per cent duplication of The Jewel music.

3835             We thank you for this opportunity to make The Jewel's concerns known and we would be pleased to answer any questions.

3836             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  We will see you later, I guess.

3837             M. EVANOV :  Merci.

3838             LE PRÉSIDENT :  Bienvenue.

3839             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed to Phase IV in which applicants can reply to all interventions submitted on their applications.  Applicants appear in reverse order.

3840             Nous poursuivrons maintenant avec la Phase IV au cours de laquelle la requérante peut répondre à toutes les interventions soumises au sujet de sa demande.

3841             Je demanderais à RNC Média Inc. de venir à la table de présentation.

‑‑‑ Pause

3842             LA SECRÉTAIRE: S'il vous plaît, vous introduire et vous avez dix minutes.  Merci.

RÉPLIQUE / REPLY

3843             M. PARENT:  Merci.

3844             Bonjour, Monsieur le Président, Messieurs les Conseillers, membres du personnel, Mesdames et Messieurs.  Je suis Robert Parent, vice‑président exécutif télévision et directeur général radio, division Outaouais.

3845             Permettez‑moi de vous présenter la personne qui m'accompagne, à ma gauche, Francine Côté, conseillère juridique.

3846             Je voudrais dans un premier temps souligner qu'il n'y a eu aucune opposition à l'encontre du renouvellement et modification de licence de CHLX.  Seule l'ADISQ a produit une intervention dans toutes les demandes considérées par le Conseil qui comportent différentes observations que nous souhaitons commenter brièvement.

3847             Tout d'abord, l'ADISQ s'interroge au bon droit, aux paragraphe 29 et suivants de son intervention, si nous avons consenti les efforts nécessaires pour assurer le succès de notre station.  Notre réponse est « oui, sans aucun doute ».

3848             Nous pensons avoir répondu à cette préoccupation exprimée par l'ADISQ lors de notre présentation orale hier après‑midi.  Nous avons démontré que le marché francophone de Gatineau est trop petit pour soutenir une station spécialisée de musique classique et jazz.  Nous avons aussi démontré que les francophones du marché de Gatineau sont très sensibles à l'offre des stations anglophones.

3849             Nous avons confirmé avoir encouru des pertes financières ‑‑ qui sont d'ailleurs à la connaissance du Conseil ‑‑ pendant six années de notre premier terme de licence par un déficit cumulatif de plus de 3 millions de dollars après impôts.

3850             L'ADISQ, dans son intervention, rappelle que notre licence a été accordée dans un processus concurrentiel et estime préoccupée que la diversité musicale du marché de Gatineau soit réduite si le Conseil autorise notre demande.

3851             Nous souhaitons répondre à cette préoccupation en soulignant un certain nombre de points.  En premier lieu, nous conservons le même groupe cible des 35‑64 ans avec une emphase « Adultes 50 ans et plus ».  Nous souhaitons élargir notre programmation musicale en donnant une place à la chanson populaire, laissée pour compte par la majorité des diffuseurs.

3852             De fait, l'ADISQ elle‑même déplorait récemment le fait que la majorité des nouvelles parutions d'artistes canadiens chevronnés ‑‑ comme la relève, d'ailleurs ‑‑ n'ont pas accès aux ondes.  Nous souhaitons pallier à cette lacune à Gatineau et offrir un accès.

3853             En fait, notre formule musicale spécialisée visait les mélomanes, notre formule musicale modifiée vise à rejoindre les amateurs de chansons, des mélomanes eux aussi, qui ne trouvent pas à la radio actuelle les chansons populaires dans le sens traditionnel du terme.

3854             Nous offrirons une liste musicale qui va bien au‑delà du Top 40, en plus d'offrir un accès aux talents canadiens dont les nouveaux titres sont laissés sur les tablettes s'ils ne sont pas perçus comme ayant une bonne chance de faire le Top 40.

3855             Nous pensons que l'ADISQ a toutes les raisons de se réjouir par notre demande, qui répond aux lacunes qu'elle dénonce régulièrement en se référant au conservatisme des radiodiffuseurs.

3856             Ceci complète notre réplique.  Nous vous remercions de l'intérêt que vous avez porté à notre demande.

3857             MME CÔTÉ :  Je voulais juste ajouter un point, Monsieur le Président.

3858             Compte tenu qu'on réplique les premiers en Phase IV.  Je pense que la réplique que monsieur Parent vient de lire répond également à la toute dernière remarque du dernier intervenant en Phase III, que nous avons entendu juste avant notre comparution.

3859             LE PRÉSIDENT :  Merci Madame, Merci Monsieur Parent.

3860             LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci.

3861             I will now ask Mark Steven Maheu to come to the presentation table.

‑‑‑ Pause

3862             THE SECRETARY:  You have 10 minutes.  Thank you.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

3863             MR. MAHEU:  Thank you, Madam Secretary.

3864             Good morning, Mr. Chair, Commissioner Katz, Commissioner Morin.  I am Mark Maheu representing Mark Maheu, on behalf of a company to be incorporated, applying for a licence at 99.7.

3865             I would just like to take a very brief moment and respond to a couple of interventions that we received as part of our application, specifically the intervention by CHUM CTV Radio Ltd. and CHRI, both with concerns about the frequency of 99.7.

3866             CHUM's concern is that it is third adjacent to their CJMJ‑FM at 100.3.  CHRI you heard from a little earlier this morning, concerned about third adjacency to 99.1.

3867             I just wanted to, for the record, echo the answers that we provided yesterday to the Chair's question about the potential problems that do exist with 99.7.

3868             We took a great amount of time and care with D.E.M. Allen & Associates to take a look at the best possible options and alternatives in the Ottawa marketplace for this licence application, and according to all the data that they provided us, 99.7 can be a viable frequency for a radio station in this market.

3869             Our technical brief was submitted to Industry Canada and approved.  We modified our original technical brief to take into considerations from Astral and the repeater for The Bear in Pembroke, so we lowered the power slightly.

3870             I am assured by D.E.M. Allen and the people there, who were much smarter and know much more about these types of things that I do, that there is a great degree of certainty that any technical issues that arise with 99.7 can be handled and dealt with accordingly.

3871             I basically as part of my reply wanted to reiterate my willingness to do whatever it takes technically to ensure that there is no third adjacency interference against 100.3 or 99.1.

3872             As the Chair recognized yesterday, even if that came to the ultimate conclusion that the frequency was not viable, if that is the way it goes, that is the way it goes.  We will follow the process and do what it takes, but we are confident that with the bright minds and the solutions that are available out there that we can make everyone happy and make 99.7 work.

3873             I would also like to take this opportunity in the reply phase of the hearing to thank the many supporters who took the time to write letters of support and written interventions to the Commission as part of our application process.  Those folks who spoke up and wrote in in support of ownership diversity in the Ottawa market and a format, the pop alternative format that is not available here, those who want to hear that, I would like to thank them very much for their time.

3874             I would also like to thank the interveners that you heard this morning, from the Native Women's Association of Canada coming to talk to you a little bit about what they do and how we would help them continue their good work.

3875             Finally, I would also like to take a moment to thank the staff of the CRTC from the time that this call was announced.  It has been almost a year now and there was a delay and those things happen.  But throughout that, the staff that I have dealt with at the Commission has been very helpful and very attentive and they made this process very easy for us.

3876             I know sometimes those things go unsung, but I wanted you as the Chair to know that they have done a very good job.

3877             My compliments on a very well run, efficient hearing.  It is on time and thank you very much for the opportunity to present.

3878             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Maheu.  I could even state to you that we are ahead of time.  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

3879             MR. MAHEU:  Perfect.

3880             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And I think everybody had a chance to say what they wanted to say.  Thank you very much.

3881             MR. MAHEU:  Thank you very much.

3882             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary...?

3883             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

3884             I would now ask Frank Torres to come to the presentation table.

‑‑‑ Pause

3885             THE SECRETARY:  Please reintroduce yourself and you have 10 minutes.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

3886             MR. ED TORRES:  Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and Members of the Commission, Commission staff.  My name is Ed Torres, President and cofounder of Skywards Radio.

3887             I would like to start by acknowledging and thanking the over 1,200 people who have supported our blues radio station applications across the country.

3888             Todd...?

3889             MR. BERNARD:  We would like to start by acknowledging and thanking the over 1,200 people that have supported our blues radio station applications across the country, including over 500 individual letters of support from this market alone for this particular application, including letters from Dan Aykroyd, a.k.a. Elwood Blues; Eli El‑Chantiry, Ottawa City Counsellor; Marc Bureau, Mayor of Gatineau; Robert Atchison, local owner of the Mr. Transmission on St. Laurent Boulevard; as well as Richard Cross, the General Manager of the Audi Division of Mark Motors of Ottawa.

3890             In particular, we would like to thank the interveners that appeared on our behalf.

3891             MR. METCALFE:  CFRC has changed its position from that of its original intervention dated November 5, 2007.  In their original intervention, CFRC stated that although the clearance of its protected contour met the requirements of Industry Canada's BPR‑3, it was concerned about possible room for error.

3892             We have revised our technical brief at our own expense to address the intervener's concern, increasing the distance to its protected contour from 0.1 kilometres to 21.5 kilometres.  In terms of the accuracy of today's equipment, this is a very large room for error and should completely satisfy the intervener that its concerns have been addressed.

3893             The revised technical brief has received technical approval from IC and is fully compliant with Part 3, Section C application procedures and rules for FM broadcasting undertaking.

3894             DAWG‑FM feels that campus and community stations face challenges and the private broadcasters can assist.  We have pledged to amend our CCD to include CFRC if the Commission were to find any part of the CCD initiatives as originally filed to be unacceptable.

3895             DAWG‑FM has had open dialogue with CFRC and we feel that we are progressing toward a solution that will satisfy both parties.

3896             MR. FRANK TORRES:  Thanks, Aubrey.

3897             Just to expand on that, on the conversations that we have had with Mr. Beers and CFRC, we agree with his position that 12 interveners on CFRC's behalf that are concerned about possibly losing their coverage, although it may seem a small number to some, to us is a significant number as well, and we feel that if there were any interference, we would be able to apply an immediate remedial effect on those parties interfered with, even though our engineering firm, D.E.M. Allen & Associates, and as shown by some of the very thorough technical presentations this afternoon, have asserted that any possible interference with our existing brief would be very unlikely.

3898             Yves...?

3899             M. TROTTIER:  Un petit mot en français, pour conclure.

3900             Dans cette audience, on a parlé énormément de public féminin, public masculin.  La chose qui nous importe, nous, au niveau de DAWG‑FM, c'est au niveau de la diversité musicale.  On a eu plusieurs stations ‑‑

3901             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Je veux juste vous rappeler qu'on est en période de réplique ‑‑

3902             M. TROTTIER: Oui, effectivement.

3903             LE PRÉSIDENT:  ...et non en période de...

3904             M. TROTTIER:  Alors, je vais conclure mon...

3905             LE PRÉSIDENT:  ... de mise en valeur de votre demande ou d'intervention.

3906             M. TROTTIER:  Oui.  J'en suis conscient, Monsieur Arpin.  Alors, je vais arrêter tout de suite et saluer les gens du Québec et de Gatineau qui nous ont appuyés pour cette demande et les remercier personnellement et au nom du groupe de Skywords.

3907             MR. ED TORRES:  In closing, I would like to thank our supporters, including those who have appeared here today.  I want the public record to reflect our gratitude to Councillor Eli El‑Chantiry, Mr. Fred Litwin and of course Dan Aykroyd, all of who sacrificed time from their hectic schedules to support our application for purely the most genuine of reasons, the public best interests, their passion for music format whose time has come.

3908             In closing, I would also like to thank Commissioners Arpin, Morin and Katz for hearing our application and of course the CRTC staff, which, as always, have been efficient, cooperative and helpful.

3909             Thank you.

3910             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have two questions for you that are left over from your appearance yesterday, and I really apologize.  They should have been asked.

3911             Part of your application is for Category 3 music, which is more the jazz and blues music.  And where you stated in your application that you will be playing an average of 20 to 30 per cent of jazz and blues, the Commission wants you to be much more specific.

3912             Could you make a commitment for 25 or 30?

3913             M. TROTTIER:  Ce que nous avons fait précédemment dans les autres audiences, c'est que nous avons accepté une condition de licence pour un minimum de 20 pour cent de musique de catégorie trois.

3914             LE PRÉSIDENT:  D'accord.  Donc, la deuxième question c'est :  seriez‑vous prêt à accepter une condition de licence, à cet effet?

3915             J'ai bien entendu votre réponse, donc j'apprécie.

3916             Those are our questions.  Thank you very much for your presentation.

3917             THE SECRETARY:  I will now ask Astral Media Radio Inc. to come to the presentation table.

‑‑‑ Pause

3918             THE SECRETARY:  Please reintroduce yourself and you have 10 minutes.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

3919             MS LAFLAMME:  Thank you.

3920             Mr. Chair, Commissioners, my name is Claude Laflamme, Vice‑President Corporate and Regulatory Affairs at Astral Media Radio.

3921             With me today is Ross Davies, Vice‑President Programming Astral Media Radio GP.

3922             Before we begin our presentation, we would like to mention that we have never received any written interventions from Christian Hit Radio, nor any indication that our frequency proposal caused interference to their actual signal.  Therefore, we are not in a position to respond to their oral intervention without consulting our engineers and investigate further.

3923             We first want to sincerely thank the numerous groups and individuals that have intervened in favour of our application, from music industry leaders to charitable foundations, universities and women's organizations like the Women's Business Network of Ottawa.

3924             We appreciate their support and hope that the Commission will give us the opportunity to improve the long‑standing partnerships that we have already built with them.

3925             We received only one intervention in opposition to our application.  It is the one filed on competitive grounds by Ottawa Media Inc. in the name of The Jewel.

3926             I will ask Ross to reply to this intervention.

3927             MR. DAVIES:  Thank you, Claude.

3928             In essence, Ottawa Media is stating that granting a licence to Eve‑FM will have a severe negative impact on The Jewel because both stations are targeting the same demographic.  We strongly disagree with that statement.

3929             As we indicated in our written reply, The Jewel's female audience is much older than the one Eve‑FM will reach.  During the oral presentation of its Alice format, Ottawa Media Inc. has itself indicated that "70 per cent of The Jewel audience is 60‑plus" and BBM shows that in fact 55 per cent of its audience is 65‑plus and consequently completely outside of the target audience of Eve‑FM.

3930             This is the reason why in its market study Carat has indicated that the impact of Eve‑FM on The Jewel's audience will be minimal, in the order of 0.2 per cent market share.  In fact, among the 14 existing stations in the market that are surveyed by BBM, The Jewel will be among the least affected station by the arrival of Eve.

3931             This is not a subjective interpretation.  It is based on the share of women 35‑64 among the 12 plus audience of each station as reported by BBM.

3932             We also disagree with the idea that applicants in the present process should be responsible for the impaired frequency of The Jewel.  When Ottawa Media chose that frequency in 2004, all the frequencies that are proposed in this present hearing were available.  They also chose a format and a music playlist that appeal mostly to people over 65 years old.  Nobody forced them to do so.

3933             I would like to take a moment here to address the comments by the Evanov group just a few moments ago.

3934             It appears to me that they have changed their audience targeting.  They have now said that they are going to be 45‑to‑64.  I read in their application for Alice that they refer to The Jewel in their Alice application as 55‑plus.  So I am a little bit confused there.

3935             The song duplication that they referenced, I think if any radio station was going to take a six or seven hour playlist, which is what Eve submitted to the CRTC, and projected over a four‑week period ‑‑ we are talking about 75 to 100 songs ‑‑ not only would there be high duplication on The Jewel, there would be high duplication on virtually every other radio station in Ottawa:  Bob, Majic.

3936             So I have some confusion with their logic on that.

3937             And lastly I would like to say that we did not copy The Jewel's format.  As the Commission is aware, in 2004 we filed for this format at the same time that The Jewel applied for their format.  They won the licence; we did not.  But we did not copy it.

3938             The facts simply prove that the allegations of Ottawa Media are completely unfounded.

3939             MS LAFLAMME:  Astral, like most of the other applicants, believes that there is room for two new English‑language commercial radio stations in the Ottawa market.  We hope of course that Eve‑FM will be one of them and we are convinced that whoever else is successful, there will be no significant impact on our business plan.

3940             In fact, we share the opinion expressed by Mark Maheu that the three proposed stations which target mostly women are so different in nature in terms of music format, spoken word content and specific demographic targeting that two of them could be authorized without undue harm.

3941             That concludes our presentation in this hearing.

3942             I can assure the Commission that if Astral is allowed to bring Eve‑FM to life, we will dedicate all the energies needed to make it work and we will respect all of our commitments, including of course our $6 million CCD initiatives.

3943             We would like to thank the Commission and the staff for the time spent listening to all the applicants and interveners.  We would be happy, of course, to answer any additional questions that you may have.

3944             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

3945             You had committed to bringing us today your CCD.  Have you filed it?

3946             MS LAFLAMME:  Yes.

3947             THE CHAIRPERSON:  It has been filed.  Thank you very much.

3948             Madam Secretary...?

3949             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

3950             I will now ask Ottawa Media Inc. to come to the presentation table.

‑‑‑ Pause

3951             THE SECRETARY:  Please reintroduce yourself and you have 10 minutes.  Thanks.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

3952             MR. EVANOV:  My name is Bill Evanov from Ottawa Media Inc. and beside me is Carmela Laurignano with Ottawa Media Inc.

3953             Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, in this reply we will address four points.

3954             As was just stated, the availability of 99.7 frequency in Ottawa/Gatineau when we applied for The Jewel licence in 2004.

3955             Number two, why there is no way for 98.5 to achieve full coverage or a full power in Ottawa/Gatineau CMA.

3956             Number three, our commitment to local news.

3957             Four, confirmation that our Algonquin College CCD initiative will be fully in accordance with the Commission's CCD policy.

3958             The first point:  the availability of 99.7 in 2004.  In 2004 we applied for two stations in Ottawa/Gatineau, a youth contemporary format and The Jewel.

3959             When we originally filed our application for The Jewel, we in fact sought to use 99.7 frequency.  However, in the time between the Commission's call for applications and the Gazetting of those proposals, the 99.7 frequency was assigned to a station owned by Standard, now Astral, in the nearby Pembroke area.

3960             The net result was that the use of 99.7 frequency in Ottawa/Gatineau now became somewhat limited in its coverage particularly to the west due to the requirement to protect 99.7 in Pembroke.

3961             In response to this development, we revised our Jewel application to operate on ‑‑ not 98.5, but 88.5 instead of 99.7.  The Commission then issued its decision for new stations in Ottawa and awarded the 88.5 frequency to Newcap and the 98.5 frequency, a frequency that is vastly inferior to 99.7, and one that The Jewel never applied for, was assigned to The Jewel.

3962             So in good faith we launched the program, because on paper it looked reasonably good, but what we saw on paper did not turn out to be reality.  So we launched just over two years ago on the frequency we were assigned and we kept the commitments we have promised the Commission, including the $4 million CTD.

3963             We should note for the record that we were analyzing whether it made sense to seek approval or move The Jewel from 98.5 to 99.7 or apply for a second station in Ottawa when the Commission's call last June 2007 for new applications was issued.

3964             We believe it's important that this chronologically be clarified for the record so that the Commission appreciates why 99.7 was not available for The Jewel when it launched in Ottawa/Gatineau.

3965             Carmela...?

3966             MS LAURIGNANO:  The limitations of 98.5.

3967             Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, please be assured that we have looked carefully at all potential solutions to remedy The Jewel's impaired signal and the bottom line is that there is no commercially viable fix.

3968             As we described in our presentation in chief, The Jewel has two interrelated problems:  one being the limited coverage of the CMA; and two being the low power that makes it impossible for The Jewel to provide a reliable signal in those areas of the CMA that it does cover.

3969             Simply put, there is no solution to the coverage problem as ‑‑

3970             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I apologize.  I am really asking myself since the beginning of your reply, is it a reply to interventions?

3971             MS LAURIGNANO:  Well, it is.

3972             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I could understand why you are making such comments vis‑à‑vis the problems that you have, but is it really part of the reply?

3973             MS LAURIGNANO:  Well, it certainly is a judgment call, and I can say that we have concluded there.  That was just my last sentence and I was going to move to the other two points.

3974             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Okay, fine.

3975             MS LAURIGNANO:  Okay.  So with regards to the local news, during our presentation in chief ‑‑ this is for legal counsel ‑‑ we indicated that 60 per cent of our news would be local.  I was going back and forth yesterday.

3976             This was an error on our part.  In actual fact, the commitment to local news is 80 per cent.

3977             The last item was the Algonquin College issue.

3978             As requested, we have been in contact with Brenda Rothwell, who is the Executive Director at Algonquin College, who will provide us with a letter which we will provide to the Commission within a week confirming that the CCD monies will be used to fund journalism scholarships, which is in accordance we believe with the Commission's policy.

3979             Finally, we too would like to add our thank you to the Commission and staff and all those who participated and congratulate the applicants.  Although we seem like fighting sisters, you know, we have Eve and Alice.  We are family in the broadcast business, so congratulations to all for a good effort.

3980             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

3981             MS LAURIGNANO:  Thank you.

3982             LE PRÉSIDENT :  Madame la Secrétaire.

3983             LA SECRÉTAIRE :  Merci.

3984             I would now ask Christian Hit Radio to come to the presentation table.

‑‑‑ Pause

3985             THE SECRETARY:  Please reintroduce yourself when you have 10 minutes.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

3986             M. DU BROY :  Re‑bonjour, Mr. President, Chairman, Commissioners and staff.

3987             I am intervening at this point ‑‑ well, of course it is the reply portion of the hearing ‑‑ to reply to two interventions in particular from ADISQ and CTVglobemedia.

3988             Just specifically with respect to our application for WORD‑FM, ADISQ does mention that our proposal will not have an effect on the finances of existing stations.  This is quite so.  I am glad they acknowledged that.

3989             So really there is effectively no objection to WORD‑FM going ahead on that basis.

3990             But also with respect to ADISQ ‑‑ and I have the greatest respect for ADISQ having worked at CBC for over 10 years with the relationship with ADISQ ‑‑ I still feel that the French language radio station should be speaking on their own behalf.  ADISQ's mandate really is specifically music and musicians and the music industry.  So I found it strange that they would seek to represent the interests of French radio.

3991             Also, WORD‑FM would propose to play a selection of classical music.  So the concern about Couleur‑FM leaving that area might somewhat be made up by the presence of WORD‑FM.

3992             Moving on to reply to the CTVglobemedia concern for a potential third frequency interference with CJMJ, our consulting engineer studied the question very closely and CTVglobemedia's concern is sensitized by a situation they had in Peterborough.  The situations in Ottawa and Peterborough are not at all analogous.

3993             In that Appendix 2 I gave to you in Phase III of the hearing, we saw the example of Majic 100's signal having a line of sight access to Ottawa, being only 12 kilometres away from Ottawa, having a power of 100 kW.  So really Ottawa's downtown area, in fact the whole city is blanketed very nicely by Majic 100's signal; no major devaluation of its signal or degradation of its signal geographically or by reason of geology or topography.

3994             So we are dealing with a best case scenario for third adjacency situation, not the worst case scenario, which I think is exemplified, if I might say, by our CHRI‑FM situation.

3995             So BCI determined that the risk of third adjacency interference is minimal from our proposed use of 99.7 MHz, and we certainly do commit to remedying any problems that might arise should WORD‑FM be licensed.

3996             I have asked that you take a look at a handout I just provided.  This actually is derived from our application and from the ‑‑ particularly the technical brief that was provided to you for the WORD‑FM application.

3997             It is a zooming in of the 115 DBU contour proposed by WORD‑FM.  You will see that our location has the majority of the signal spilling into a large uninhabited area in Carlington Park.  The signal, because of protection of 99.7, The Bear in Pembroke, has to be through a directional antenna aiming eastward, so the area of potential interference is very small, in fact.

3998             What is not evident right away, though, is, in the "No Zone" ‑‑

3999             If you could imagine an antenna broadcasting outwards, there is usually a cone under the antenna, directly below, where, really, the signal is not very strong.  That area is a high‑density apartment building, 275 apartments, which, although the landlord couldn't tell me the actual number of occupants, could well mean over 600 people.  They will be in the "No Zone".

4000             These people, ironically, will have a much better ‑‑ a stronger signal from CJMJ than from Word FM.

4001             As a result, we don't think there will be any third adjacency interference issues that certainly we couldn't handle, either from CJMJ or, I must add, if I may at this reply stage, for our proposed use of CHRI‑FM at 99.1.

4002             Commissioner Katz requested detailed financial information from us, which I filed this morning.  It breaks out the administration category, at least for the year 2007, so you get a sense of what is represented in that number.

4003             Also, unfortunately, accountants aren't always broadcasters and they can't distinguish between different categories of revenue.  We do have some national advertising revenue.  It is not very large, and he has always rolled that into local ads.

4004             It amounts to about $15,000 a year.

4005             That's about all I could get out of him last night, but he did give us detailed information on national programs since 2004, and certainly in recent years it has been significant, over $100,000 a year.

4006             That is pretty close to my thanks.

4007             I do want to thank our accountant, obviously, our 780 intervenors, and the Staff of the CRTC.  I think we are sort of all buddies by the end of this session.  We might all come to my place for a barbecue this afternoon, if we break before four o'clock.

4008             I also want to thank my three intervenors this morning, who, obviously, felt totally free to say whatever was in their hearts.  As sort of a testament to the impartiality of this process, I chose from the 15 intervenors who were offered to us by the Staff of the CRTC, two of whom I had never met before, and it was all done on the basis of the length of their letters.  I thought they would have a lot to say, and, evidently, they did.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

4009             MR. DU BROY:  Anyway, a special thanks to them.

4010             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

4011             Madam Secretary.

4012             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

4013             I would now ask Corus Radio Company to come forward.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

4014             MR. PANDOFF:  Mr. Chair, Mr. Vice‑Chair, Commissioner Morin, and Staff, thank you.  Corus appreciates the opportunity to respond to interventions.

4015             For the record, my name is Chris Pandoff.  I am the Vice‑President for Corus Radio, the Ontario group, and I am accompanied today by Sylie Courtemanche, Vice‑President of Government Relations for Corus Entertainment.

4016             Corus would also like to take this opportunity to thank again those intervenors that supported this application.  These interventions have been filed with the Commission, and are part of the public record.

4017             Corus' reply will be brief.  We will address the concerns raised by CFRC‑FM in Kingston regarding the potential interference to the station's signal should Corus be authorized to deploy its proposed station at 101.9, according to the amended parameters filed in its application.

4018             Corus provided CFRC‑FM and the Commission a contour map on April 28, 2008, which clearly demonstrates that the proposed Corus station on Channel 270B.1, at 101.9 MHz, meets the protection rules as per Broadcasting Procedures Rules, Part 3, with respect to CFRC‑FM Kingston, Channel 270A, 101.9 MHz.

4019             In fact, the protection afforded to CFRC‑FM has improved since Corus has decided to move its transmitter site from downtown Ottawa to Cantley, Quebec.

4020             At this time, Corus would also like to reiterate that it is prepared to fully cooperate with CFRC‑FM on an engineering basis.  In this regard, I would ask Sylvie to address the solutions proposed by CFRC this morning.

4021             MS COURTEMANCHE:  We would want to state, unequivocally, for the record that we would be happy to work with CFRC‑FM on any interference issues, should they arise.

4022             We would just like to state for the record that our Director of Engineering, Mr. Hoeppner, as well as D.M. Allen and Associates, as well as Mr. Pandoff, did contact Mr. Beers prior to this proceeding in order to make these statements of fact, that we are prepared to work with and to resolve any issues should they arise.

4023             We would also like to point out that the reason we have proposed the signal in the manner that we have is that we believe as a policy, and we believe it is also Industry Canada's policy, as well as perhaps even the Commission's, that licensees should try to maximize the use of the frequencies, especially in such a congested market, but always being mindful of protecting those contours that exist, as well as resolving issues that could arise.

4024             That was the goal that we were trying to achieve, and certainly proof that we are prepared to work with CFRC ‑‑ and all players, in fact.  Corus spent a great deal of time in order to resolve the third adjacency issues that CBC had outlined earlier, and they withdrew their objection.

4025             The Panel and the Staff can attest to the fact that coming to an agreement with the CBC is no easy feat, so if we can do that, I trust that we can come to some very amicable solutions with CFRC‑FM.

4026             MR. PANDOFF:  In closing, we recognize that the Commission is very familiar with frequency allocation issues.  In fact, this is becoming a substantial issue as the spectrum becomes more and more congested.

4027             That said, Corus has given its firm undertaking, and it is clear that we have the experience, the expertise and, more importantly, the resources to resolve these issues.

4028             Corus intends to continue its industry technical research leadership to ensure that the maximum and best use of spectrum is made in this very congested spectrum environment.

4029             We believe that this is not only good for Corus, but that it is also very good for our industry.

4030             Thank you for your time.

4031             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

4032             Madam Secretary.

4033             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.  I would now ask Instant Information Services Incorporated to come forward.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

4034             MR. McGAW:  Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, we intend to be very brief.  Unfortunately, our chief engineer, Mr. MacAuley, couldn't make it today, so he has designated Michel Mathieu, who is known to the Commission, who has some comments on the third adjacency issue.

4035             Beyond that, we have no further comments.

4036             MR. MATHIEU:  Good afternoon, Commissioners.  As you all know, we have to be aware of the maximum use of FM frequencies, and there are two frequencies available to the Ottawa area.  They are all third adjacent.  I think it would be impossible to find an FM frequency in the Windsor‑Quebec City corridor that is not third adjacent.

4037             As you also know, I have a lot of experience with installing radio stations on third adjacency, and it is our feeling that there will not be any serious problem, or any problem that is beyond fixing.

4038             Our application is entirely in accordance with Industry Canada's BPR‑3, and it has received Industry Canada's certification.

4039             We have, as any broadcaster has, an agreement with Industry Canada, and we have signed a consent form that we will be investigating and will be responsible for any reasonable complaint judged by Industry Canada within the 100 dBu contour.

4040             Also, being a third adjacency to other radio stations, we are subject to receive interference, and we are not the least bit worried about it.

4041             We would like to assure the Commission that we feel that the third adjacent frequency will not be an issue in our case.  We are very confident that, should we be awarded the right to broadcast in this town, there will not be any interference, and if there is some, we will certainly seriously investigate it.

4042             Thank you.

4043             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

4044             Madam Secretary.

4045             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

4046             I would now ask Fiston Kalambay Mutombo to come to the presentation table.

RÉPLIQUE / REPLY

4047             M. KALAMBAY: Bonjour, Monsieur le Président et les membres de comité.

4048             J'aimerais d'abord commencer à préciser ce que nous avions parlé le mardi, concernant les heures de programmation préenregistrée.  Et effectivement, Monsieur le Président, je pense que ça a été une erreur qui s'était introduite dans la traduction du document que moi j'ai fait en vue de présenter la version française.

4049             En effet, vous allez voir que même à la page 8 de ma présentation, je n'ai pas comptabilisé...  En fait, je n'ai pas comptabilisé les heures de l'émission... de l'émission... en fait, de l'émission « Louanges libres ».

4050             J'avais commis une erreur dans la version française; je l'avais mise comme animation en direct alors que c'était animation préenregistrée.

4051             Même dans les heures d'animation en direct, je n'ai pas non plus comptabilisé ça.  Donc, c'était une erreur; la version de ce qui a été présenté en anglais est la bonne, même au niveau aussi « deux heures de »... de deux heures par semaine pour les nouvelles.  Cette version anglaise, elle est la bonne.

4052             Je pense, l'erreur était bien dans la traduction, en fait, du document pour le mettre valable en français pour les auditeurs francophones, évidemment.

4053             Et j'aimerais aussi réagir dans l'opposition de l'ADISQ.  C'était une opposition écrite, je pense.  Et on fait mention qu'une chaîne, une station chrétienne a peu d'attraits.  Et je pense que ce n'était pas même élaboré dans leur argumentation.  Ils ont tout simplement dit que « avait peu d'attraits ».

4054             Et je crois sincèrement que n'ayant pas élaboré dans quel sens ça a peu d'attraits, j'ai la difficulté de pouvoir argumenter là‑dessus.  Mais je me permettrai quand même à donner certains indices.

4055             Je crois que toute chaîne spécialisée, que ça soit classique, jazz, du moment où elle devient spécialisée, elle a un attrait limité parce qu'elle vise un certain âge.  Elle vise une certaine population et elle vise un certain segment de population.  De ce côté‑là, je pense que l'attrait est limité.

4056             Et il est évident que proposant une chaîne chrétienne francophone, nous visons évidemment les gens qui aiment cette chanson, une telle catégorie de chanson.  Il est évident que l'attrait, dans ce sens‑là, est limité.

4057             Mais si leur supposition d'un attrait limité est dans un autre sens, je ne le sais pas; ils ne l'ont pas élaboré.  Mais je crois qu'en dehors de cette logique que je poussais, que toute chaîne spécialisée, quelque part, elle a un attrait limité parce qu'elle vise un segment limité, aussi.  Donc, dans ce sens‑là...  Peut‑être je pourrais argumenter dans ce sens‑là.

4058             Mais quant au niveau des performances, je crois que le marché est là, la possibilité de performer est là.  Et je crois que cela est totalement possible, d'autant plus que dans notre philosophie, de mise en marché, nous privilégions les petits commerces.

4059             C'est la philosophie chinoise qui veut qu'on donne la possibilité même aux petits.  Et plus le petit consomme ‑‑ et ceux qui ont moins de moyens sont plus nombreux ‑‑ plus ça va rouler, plus il y aura beaucoup de profits.

4060             Et dans notre philosophie, nous visons les petits annonceurs qui ne sont nullement sollicités dans le marché.  Et la particularité aussi de notre projet est dans le sens que nous proposons quelque chose qui, par elle‑même fera la différence sur le réseau radiophonique.  On n'a pas d'effort à démontrer la différence par rapport à tous ceux qui ont présenté leurs projets, qui sont viables, qui sont bons.

4061             Mais je pense que tout ce qu'ils présentent comme projet, dans la logique de cette audience, se retrouve quelque part dans le minimum de la programmation des radios existantes alors que ce que nous, nous proposons ne se retrouve même pas dans le minimum de la programmation de radios existantes.

4062             Et dans la configuration de la composition de la ville... de nos deux villes, Gatineau et Ottawa, je pense que dans les grandes composantes, je pense qu'il manque un certain segment qui est totalement viable, ce qui est le segment de la population chrétienne francophone, qui ne sont absolument pas servis.

4063             Et je crois fondamentalement que ce que nous proposons, nous n'avons aucun effort à prouver que ça va amener une réelle diversité, rien que par sa mise en marché, ça va amener une réelle diversité, que ça soit dans le contenu, que ça soit pour les artistes proposés.

4064             Et je pense que c'est ce que moi je pouvais bien avancer devant vous comme arguments.  Et je tiens à vous remercier.  Et nous comptons réellement... il y a une chose qui m'a beaucoup frappée dans le conseil de CRTC ‑‑ peut‑être que d'autres gens ne l'ont pas remarquée ‑‑ mais c'est un esprit de sagesse, au‑delà du rationnel que vous appliquez, pour déterminer le bon candidat.

4065             Mais je pense que vous êtes dirigés, quelque part par une sagesse qui dépasse un peu le rationnel, ce qui fait qu'au travers de cette sagesse, vous avez pu prendre des décisions qui a pu réellement configurer ces réseaux radiophoniques.

4066             Et moi, je vous dis sincèrement que je compte, encore une fois de plus, sur cette sagesse pour que la licence de la radio Vue Nouvelle... et pour les francophones, plus particulièrement les chrétiens, soit approuvée.  Et je vous dis merci et je suis à votre disposition.

4067             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Merci,  Monsieur Kalambay.  Je vous remercie pour vos compliments.  C'est fort apprécié.

4068             Nous allons passer au prochain groupe.  Merci, Madame la Secrétaire.

4069             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Merci.

4070             Maintenant, je demanderais à RÉÉL‑Radio de venir en avant.

‑‑‑ Pause

4071             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  S'il vous plaît, vous représenter et vous avez dix minutes.  Merci.

RÉPLIQUE / REPLY

4072             M. PILON:  Patrick Pilon, directeur général de RÉÉL‑Radio.

4073             Monsieur le Président, Messieurs les Commissaires, membres du personnel, j'aimerais d'abord remercier les acteurs du monde de la musique émergente, les acteurs du monde communautaire puis les acteurs des différents services, autant à l'UQO que dans la communauté, qui reconnaissent aujourd'hui la notoriété qui a été développée au cours des années par RÉÉL‑Radio.

4074             J'aimerais répondre premièrement à l'intervention de CBC et Radio‑Canada, suite à l'objection de Radio‑Canada en décembre dernier.

4075             Même si dans leur première objection, la SRC stipulait que RÉÉL‑Radio était la station qui présentait le moins de risques de brouillage avec CBOX, puis que notre demande avait été approuvée par Industrie Canada, on a fait une évaluation de brouillage potentiel réaliste que pouvait causer notre nouvelle station au service qui est présentement offert par CBOX.

4076             Notre analyse de couverture réaliste a déterminé que le potentiel de brouillage adjacent entre ces deux stations était inexistant.  En fonction des résultats de cette analyse des signaux réalistes des deux station on ne prévoit pas de brouillage de troisième adjacente entre ces deux stations.

4077             Donc, notre analyse dit qu'il n'y aurait pas de brouillage, avec la station CBOX selon les critères établis par Industrie Canada.  Néanmoins, on tient à préciser que dans l'éventualité où l'opération de la station proposée causerait du brouillage de troisième adjacente, RÉÉL‑Radio prendra les mesures nécessaires pour remédier à ce brouillage soit par l'installation de filtres coupe‑bandes, l'installation d'antenne réceptionnelle ou toute autre solution qui serait jugée acceptable par Radio‑Canada et RÉÉL‑Radio.

4078             En ce qui concerne une intervention de l'ADISQ qui stipulait qu'une station campus ne dispose pas de moyens financiers importants et qui suggère le statut quo, dans le marché actuelle, je tiendrais à dire que RÉÉL‑Radio a un financement qui est stable.  On a aussi reçu aujourd'hui un appel de La Table Jeunesse Outaouais qui a accepté de financer une partie de notre antenne.

4079             La majorité des stations radios campus qui sont axées sur la communauté possèdent une licence FM dans les grands marchés canadiens.  Puis d'ailleurs, ces radios campus francophones fonctionnent déjà très bien et sont viables.

4080             Puis ce sont des radios forts dans leur marché, que ce soit CFOU à Trois‑Rivières, que ce soit CFAK à Sherbrooke, CHYZ à Québec, CISM ou CKUT à Montréal, ils visent un marché différent.  La communauté étudiante de L'UQO veut non seulement contribuer au développement de sa propre institution, mais aussi participer au développement d'une collectivité régionale.

4081             La station campus, axée sur la communauté, c'est un moyen privilégié pour y parvenir.  On est dans une société mondialisée, qui est fortement compétitive, qui appelle plus que jamais à l'acquisition de haut niveau de savoir, mais notre radio se veut en ce sens une source de valorisation régionale du savoir universitaire ‑‑

4082             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Monsieur Pilon?

4083             M. PILON:  Oui?

4084             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Je vous demanderais de conclure, parce que vous êtes...  On est en phase de réplique puis vous êtes en train de...

4085             M. PILON:  Oui...  Mais c'est pour expliquer que ça aurait justement un impact significatif sur l'économie locale et que la « tarte » publicitaire n'est pas du tout partagée...  C'est pas la même...

4086             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Et personne ne l'a contesté.

4087             Sauf peut‑être...

4088             M. PILON:  O.K.  Mais comme le dit L'ADISQ, il existe beaucoup plus de stations anglophones que de stations francophones sur le marché, puis une licence à RÉÉL‑Radio, justement, équilibrerait ces forces‑là.

4089             Donc, je vous remercie, Monsieur le Président, les Commissaires et les membres du CRTC, puis tous les bénévoles qui sont à pied d'oeuvre depuis bientôt 36 mois dans notre projet...  Il y a trois générations d'étudiants qui se sont succédées, puis pour nous, c'était notre principale source de motivation, cette audience publique.

4090             C'est clair que la non obtention de ce permis‑là pourrait avoir un effet démobilisateur énorme sur notre équipe de bénévoles, donc, on demande au CRTC de répondre à notre appel, puis on est un nouvel acteur qui désire être entendu et non une boîte qui désire ajouter une station à son réseau.

4091             Donc, je vous invite à visiter notre www.reel‑radio.fm pour le constater par vous‑mêmes.  Puis j'ajouterais qu'on a un vaste auditoire féminin puis que 70 pour cent de nos animateurs sont des femmes entre 18 et 25 ans.  Merci beaucoup.

4092             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Merci beaucoup, Monsieur Pilon.

4093             Madame la Secrétaire?

4094             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Merci.

4095             Je demanderais maintenant à Radio de la communauté francophone d'Ottawa de venir à la table.

‑‑‑ Pause

4096             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  S'il vous plaît, vous représenter et vous avez dix minutes.  Merci.

RÉPLIQUE / REPLY

4097             M. BOUCHER:  Merci.  Comme le veut le dicton, « Les premiers seront les derniers. »

4098             Alors, je me présente, Denis Boucher, président de la Radio communautaire francophone et...

4099             M. POULIN:  Juste pour situer le Conseil que nous ne sommes pas ici en réplique d'aucune intervention.  C'est juste parce qu'on voudrait avoir le profit de répondre à votre question, Monsieur le Président, il y a deux jours, particulièrement.

4100             M. BOUCHER:  Alors, pour répondre à la question de monsieur Arpin de mardi, qui suggérait de partager les ondes avec RÉÉL‑Radio, l'auditoire visé par le projet de RÉÉL‑Radio correspond à un des auditoires qui intéresse la RCFO.  Nous serions donc disposés à discuter avec RÉÉL‑Radio de la possibilité de leur offrir certaines plages d'horaire pour la diffusion sur les ondes de la RCFO, d'une programmation produite par RÉÉL‑Radio.

4101             M. POULIN:  Est‑ce que ça répond à votre question, Monsieur le Président?

4102             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Oui.

4103             M. POULIN:  Oui?

4104             M. BOUCHER:  Merci.

4105             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Merci.  Évidemment, on a entendu les gens de RÉÉL‑Radio, à l'audience, dire qu'ils n'étaient pas intéressés, donc...

4106             M. POULIN:  Oui.  Si vous me permettez, la comparaison, ils comparaient un exemple à Paris avec religieux et communautaire.  Je pense qu'il y a moyen de faire des mariages avec d'autres types de radios, donc communautaire et universitaire, ça se marie très bien, en termes de...

4107             D'ailleurs dans la lettre de lacunes du 12 septembre du Conseil sur comment on fait pour recruter les bénévoles, effectivement, nous avions identifié à ce moment‑là que l'Université du Québec, les étudiants de l'Université du Québec étaient des bénévoles cibles pour notre... participation à notre radio.

4108             M. BOUCHER:  Un petit détail que je voudrais rappeler c'est que ‑‑ je ne sais pas si ça a été mentionné lors de la présentation originale, mais ça paraît de toute façon dans le document original, c'est qu'il y a au‑delà de 700 lettres d'appui qui ont été déposées.

4109             De ce nombre, il y en a une soixantaine qui provenait d'organismes tant de l'Ontario que du Québec et qui représentait 112 000 personnes.

4110             Alors, sur ce, j'aimerais remercier les Commissaires, le personnel, de cette occasion de nous avoir permis de nous présenter devant vous pour solliciter une station de radio communautaire pour la région Ottawa‑Gatineau.  Merci.

4111             LE PRÉSIDENT :  Merci, Messieurs.

4112             Ceci complète la Phase IV de l'audience pour l'attribution d'une nouvelle licence pour les marchés d'Ottawa‑Gatineau.

4113             Je voudrais remercier sincèrement tous les requérants, qui avaient présenté des mémoires complets, des demandes bien étayées.  Et je vous remercie pour la qualité de la discussion qu'on a pu avoir au cours de cette audience publique.

4114             I want to thank, in particular, all of the applicants, who came with a proven file, which allowed us to have upstaged discussions with you.

4115             Thank you very much for being so well prepared.  We will now move into deliberations for the next while, and eventually there will be a decision.

4116             Thank you very much.  We will now break for lunch, and we will return at three o'clock.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1325 / Suspension à 1325

‑‑‑ Reprise à 1512 / Upon resuming at 1512

4117             LE PRÉSIDENT:   À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.  Madame la secrétaire.

4118             LA SECRÉTAIRE:   Merci, monsieur le président.

4119             Nous entendrons maintenant l'Article 12 à l'Ordre du jour qui est une demande présentée par 9183‑9084 Québec Inc. afin d'acquérir l'actif de l'entreprise de programmation de Radio CHRC Québec de 591991 BC Limited Course.

4120             Alors, monsieur Michel Cadrin nous présentera ses collègues et vous pourrez procéder par la suite.  Monsieur Cadrin.

PRÉSENTATION / PRESENTATION

4121             M. CADRIN:   Bonjour.  À ma droite, Marie‑Josée Lortie qui est la secrétaire de Financière Michelco, mon holding personnel, et qui est avocate et qui me représente ici pour la compagnie 9183.  À ma gauche, monsieur Jacques Papin, le vice‑président Région de CORUS.

4122             Je représente également mes deux partenaires, Jacques Tanguay et Patrick Roy, présidant pour les deux qui sont retenus à Québec présentement dû aux obligations qu'ils ont dans le Championnat du monde de hockey 2008 qui se déroule à Québec.  Jacques Tanguay en est le président et Patrick Roy, le président d'honneur.

4123             Ma présence ici est pour vous démontrer l'intérêt que j'ai avec mes partenaires à acheter et acquérir la station CHRC à Québec et à relever le défi de transformer cette station‑là qui est, à mon avis, présentement moribonde et de la rendre rentable.

4124             Je suis disposé à répondre à vos questions.  Je n'ai pas nécessairement une présentation puisqu'on avait déjà déposé la présentation complète de ce qu'on voulait faire.

4125             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Je vous remercie, monsieur Cadrin.  J'ai quand même quelques questions parce que quand j'ai pris connaissance de votre mémoire, mais aussi des documents qui ont été déposés en appoint, ça m'a soulevé plusieurs questions.

4126             Notamment, vous dites que dans la Société 9183‑9084 qui est la société dans laquelle Financière Micado, Gestion Maurice Tanguay et Frantrex sont partenaires.  Il n'y a pas de convention d'actionnaires.

4127             Vous résolvez les conflits de quelle façon?  à la majorité, je présume, ou bien si...

4128             M. CADRIN:  On n'en a jamais eue.

4129             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Vous n'en avez jamais eue.

4130             M. CADRIN:   Non.

4131             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Je sais bien que vous êtes associé avec monsieur Tanguay depuis de nombreuses années, mais avec monsieur Roy, c'est plus récent?

4132             M. CADRIN:   Bien, depuis 1983 avec monsieur Tanguay et avec monsieur Roy, depuis 1990... 1986?  Depuis 1986.  Chacun joue son rôle.

4133             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Si dans... chacun joue son rôle.  Maintenant, je sais que vous et monsieur Tanguay avez déjà été propriétaires de CHRC à une époque antérieure et peut‑être que... pour les fins du dossier, pouvez‑vous nous parler de cette expérience‑là?

4134             Je sais pourquoi vous venez... mais peut‑être que le Conseil ne le sait pas qu'est‑ce qui est arrivé et...

4135             M. CADRIN:   Bien, disons qu'à l'époque, on... c'est dans... si on regarde 1983, on a participé sous forme d'actions privilégiées à l'acquisition de CHRC par différentes personnes.

4136             On n'a pas été nécessairement actif au niveau de la radio, même si on siégeait sur leur conseil d'administration.  Nos activités ont plus été dans les années, je pense, quatre‑vingt‑dix lorsque CHRC est tombée en difficultés financières et, personnellement, j'ai pris la pôle... le poste de directeur général et on a fait un redressement avant que... et ce qui a conduit à la fusion de Mutuelle et de Télémédia pour faire Radiomédia.

4137             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Oui.  J'étais sur l'autre bord de la patinoire.

4138             M. CADRIN:   Je me souviens.

4139             LE PRÉSIDENT:   À ce moment‑là; si je peux utiliser le mot «patinoire» ici puis étant donné que vous êtes probablement tous des meilleurs patineurs que moi.

4140             Et, donc, effectivement, en 1994, le 1er septembre 1994, c'est devenu Radiomédia et...

4141             M. CADRIN:   Exact.

4142             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Et vous n'étiez plus dans la propriété de station de radio, à ce moment‑là.

4143             M. CADRIN:   C'est exact.

4144             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Et lors de... évidemment, c'est d'autres circonstances, mais qui vous amènent à vous ré‑intéresser à CHRC pour... qui se retrouve également à nouveau dans une situation pénible, comme vous avez dit vous‑même.  Vous avez utilisé même des mots plus forts que ça et, d'aventure, ça vous tente encore d'essayer de le redresser.

4145             M. CADRIN:   Sauf que ma façon de voir, premièrement CHRC ou même le AM, là, je pense que c'est un défi de pouvoir tourner cette station de la position déficitaire où est‑ce qu'elle se trouve et amener ça à peut‑être une station qui peut être rentable.

4146             L'objectif qu'on en a, ce n'est pas nécessairement devenir numéro 1 dans le marché.  C'est plutôt de... l'objection qu'on a c'est plutôt de faire de cette station quelque chose qui est plus une station communautaire.

4147             Notre intérêt de revenir en radio est peut‑être relié à ce qu'on a accompli depuis les dix dernières années dans la région de Québec et les véhicules qu'on a, surtout sportifs, mais aussi culturels parce qu'il y a quatre ans, pour ma part, j'ai acheté le Théâtre Impérial là Québec et je me suis lancé un peu dans la culture.

4148             J'ai participé au lancement d'un programme pour la relève et j'ai une implication à ce niveau‑là qui nous donne deux volets : le volet sportif, on est plus connu sur ce volet‑là à cause de toutes les équipes sportives qu'on a pu supporter, mais je pense qu'il y a aussi un côté qui peut servir... que la radio veut servir et c'est ce que ce côté culturel est.

4149             On ne prétend pas de faire des miracles.  On prétend seulement que dans les deux domaines qu'on connaît, que l'on connaît bien, la radio peut venir supporter.  Et quand je parle de supporter, ce n'est pas nécessairement supporter des entreprises qui nous appartiennent.

4150             J'ai lu dans un mémoire qu'on supporterait nos businesses et je pense plus que c'est nos businesses qui vont supporter la radio.

4151             Je pense que si je prends des exemples comme le Rouge et Or de l'Université Laval, ce n'est pas une entreprise.  C'est une entreprise qu'on est très présent parce qu'on la gère, mais ce n'est pas une entreprise qui nous appartient.

4152             C'est une entreprise qui appartient... la franchise appartient à l'Université Laval et toutes les retombées économiques, les profits qu'on peut faire sont retournés dans le cercle de l'Université, soit dans le soccer, dans le base‑ball ou dans d'autres programmes.

4153             Et je pense qu'on pourrait avec CHRC donner une plus grande chance à des organismes de Québec de pouvoir se promouvoir et je pense que ma façon de voir de la radio à Québec, d'une radio comme CHRC est plus de faire une radio de promotions qu'une radio d'opinions.

4154             Je pense que les radios d'opinions il y en a suffisamment et je pense que c'est une radio qui puisse servir à la communauté en premier et c'est la seule raison pour laquelle on a décidé de s'impliquer dans ça, parce qu'on pouvait l'intégrer facilement à travers le reste des propriétés qu'on a ou des propriétés qu'on gère.

4155             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Et dans le domaine culturel, vous avez parlé du Théâtre Impérial.  Est‑ce que vous avez d'autres activités culturelles au moment où on se parle ou...

4156             M. CADRIN:   Non, mais à partir du Théâtre Impérial, il y a quand même eu des investissements pour soutenir des groupes qui se produisent au Théâtre depuis quatre ans et de l'ordre de plusieurs millions de dollars à date.

4157             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Mais, quoi, ce sont des Troupes de théâtre, des chanteurs?

4158             M. CADRIN:   C'est des gens qui... le virage qu'on a pris, c'est qu'on essaie de donner la chance à la relève, à des jeunes qui ne sont pas capables de se produire parce qu'ils n'ont pas les sous pour se produire, parce qu'il ne sont pas capable de décrocher les subventions aux places que ça va et on offre la scène et on offre à des coûts réduits la possibilité de pouvoir se produire là puis on donne un coup de main.

4159             Puis, d'ailleurs, la Ville de Québec vient de mettre un programme justement dans le cadre de ça qu'on puisse depuis quelques années et puis ils viennent de mettre un programme en place et dans ce programme‑là, je me souviens d'avoir dit aux journalistes que si la Ville mettrait une piastre, j'en mettrais une.

4160             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Puis, là, la Ville a commencé à mettre des piastres?

4161             M. CADRIN:   Ils ont commencé à mettre des piastres et espérons qu'ils vont en mettre un peu plus.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

4162             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Parce que vous êtes prêt à en mettre encore davantage.

4163             M. CADRIN:   Je pense que c'est une bonne cause.

4164             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Je vois que vous avez déposé une convention d'ailleurs qui est signée avec Claude Lussier, une compagnie qui s'appelle «Plan de Match Communications».  Et quand j'ai lu la convention, je me suis posé un certain nombre de questions puis j'aimerais quand même peut‑être obtenir des clarifications.

4165             Plan de Match, si je comprends votre... en fait...

4166             M. CADRIN:   Plan de Match, excusez je vais répondre avant votre question.  Plan de Match était la compagnie de Claude Lussier, sauf que Claude Lussier n'est plus nécessairement à l'emploi ou il était à l'emploi jusqu'à il y a à peu près un mois.  Présentement, il a accepté un travail à l'Aéroport de Québec et il ne fait plus partie de notre plan.

4167             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Maintenant, parce que je voyais qu'il est... en tout cas, je vais quand même vous poser certaines questions que vous pourriez être tenté de faire la même chose avec quelqu'un d'autre, mais je vais essayer de généraliser puis de théoriser mes questions plutôt que d'être plus pratique.

4168             C'est que je notais que l'objectif de cette convention‑là, c'était que, finalement, Plan de Match vous offrait... c'est un service complet.  Il aurait des employés qui, à la fois, feraient les ventes, qui feraient toute une série... toutes les fonctions d'une station de radio?

4169             M. CADRIN:   Non.  Plan de Match représentait uniquement Claude Lussier.

4170             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Claude Lussier.

4171             M. CADRIN:   Seulement c'est qu'il voulait fonctionner par une compagnie au lieu de fonctionner personnellement.

4172             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Bon.

4173             M. CADRIN:   Mais Claude Lussier, son background est au niveau des ventes et aussi avec une bonne expérience de radio.  J'avais besoin de quelqu'un pour m'aider à monter les programmes.

4174             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Parce que je voyais quand même que dans... parce que le contrat, ça disait qu'il engagerait du personnel.  Et donc, tout ça, ce n'est pas...

4175             M. CADRIN:   À titre de directeur général adjoint, c'était le titre qu'on lui donnait.

4176             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Oui, mais parce que ce que j'avais conclu de la lecture du contrat, c'est que lui‑même se retrouverait avec du personnel et il avait un contrat de cinq ans puis la question que je me posais, au bout de cinq ans, vous ne renouvelez pas le contrat, vous n'avez pas d'employé.  Mais ce n'est pas ça que vous me dites?

4177             M. CADRIN:   Non, ce n'est pas ça.

4178             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Ce n'est pas ça.   Donc, les...

4179             Me LORTIE:   Si vous me permettez, monsieur Arpin.  Le contrat, en fait, avait été demandé pour la compagnie de gestion, mais il était clair que le seul employé de la compagnie serait monsieur Claude Lussier.

4180             Monsieur Claude Lussier aurait, par l'entremise de sa compagnie, Plan de Match, un rôle d'assistant directeur général, à toutes fins pratiques ou directeur général adjoint, pour assister à la mise en place des programmes et des émissions qui devaient être... qui doivent être mises en ondes par CHRC.

4181             C'est un contrat, oui, d'une durée de cinq ans qui devait être re‑négocié par la suite, mais je vous assure qu'il était très clair qu'il y avait une seule personne qui était à l'emploi de Plan de Match Communications et c'est monsieur Lussier.

4182             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Parce que je vais juste donner l'exemple : l'Article 3.1.7, affecter les ressources humaines et administratives appropriées pour la meilleure réalisation de ses fonctions au terme du présent contrat.

4183             Me CÔTÉ:   Effectivement, les fonctions qui sont prévues au contrat sont des fonctions rattachées à une fonction de directeur général adjoint.

4184             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Oui.

4185             Me CÔTÉ:   Et fournir le personnel c'est encore, somme toute, son propre... c'est lui‑même.

4186             LE PRÉSIDENT:   C'est parce qu'il est au pluriel; il n'est pas au singulier.

4187             Me CÔTÉ:   Oui, je comprends.  Le pluriel, vous me permettrez, inclut évidemment le singulier.

4188             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Le singulier, absolument.

4189             Me CÔTÉ:   Alors, s'il y avait eu besoin de gens pour l'assister, il aurait pu le faire.  En théorie, il aurait pu le faire, mais l'objectif c'était que lui soit engagé par l'entremise de sa compagnie de gestion tout simplement.

4190             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Donc, les employés ne se retrouvaient pas dans sa compagnie?

4191             Me CÔTÉ:   Non.  Les employés du CHRC demeurent des employés de CHRC.

4192             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Je pense que c'est important que ça soit clarifié parce que ça soulevait, en tous les cas, auprès du Conseil, une question de dégradation d'autorité et puis de...

4193             Me CÔTÉ:   Si vous me permettez, monsieur le président, le contrat prévoit également que les décisions finales doivent être prises par le seul administrateur en fait de 9183, étant monsieur Cadrin.

4194             Mais c'est donc... les employés, il n'était pas question de déplacer, si vous voulez, les employés de CHRC à la compagnie Plan de Match, ça c'est clair.

4195             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Maintenant, vous prévoyez avoir combien de... combien d'employés puis dans quel domaine vont‑ils oeuvrer?

4196             M. CADRIN:   On a besoin.  Écoutez, je n'ai pas exactement la liste des employés parce qu'il y a beaucoup de cases vacantes, là, mais on a besoin de tous les employés pour faire fonctionner une radio à partir de la secrétaire, des techniciens, des animateurs.

4197             Probablement que c'est une radio qui va avoir aux alentours de huit à dix employés.

4198             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Et ils vont avoir, essentiellement, quelles fonctions?  Il va y avoir des représentants commerciaux, forcément.  Il va y avoir de la... parce que, vous, personnellement, vous ne serez pas à la station tous les jours.

4199             M. CADRIN:   Au début, pour donner la direction, mais après ça, non, je ne serai pas à la station à tous les jours.

4200             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Donc, vous allez vous engager un directeur général?

4201             M. CADRIN:   C'est exact.

4202             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Et qui, lui, aura toute l'autorité nécessaire pour gérer la station, préparer les budgets et les faire autoriser par le conseil d'administration?

4203             M. CADRIN:   Exact.

4204             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Et donc, vous allez avoir un directeur des ventes et des représentants.  Vous allez avoir des animateurs?

4205             M. CADRIN:   Je pense qu'il va y avoir un directeur général qui va cumuler plusieurs postes.

4206             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Mais c'est...

4207             M. CADRIN:   Je ne pense pas qu'il va y avoir un directeur général, un directeur des ventes, un directeur de programmation, un directeur...

4208             Je pense que la station, pour qu'elle survive, je ne pense pas que les revenus de cette station‑là vont monter énormément.  Donc, il faut que les coûts pour opérer cette station soient assez bien contrôlés.

4209             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Soient moins élevés que les revenus.

4210             M. CADRIN:   Soient un peu moins élevés que les revenus; au moins égaux.

4211             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Au moins égal.  Maintenant, quand je regarde votre grille de programmation, je comprends que votre objectif c'est de la centrer sur le sport et sur la culture, mais je vois quand même des émissions avec des titres comme «Québec ce matin», «Québec ce midi», «Québec en affaires», et pour ne nommer que ceux‑là pour commencer et ce sont des émissions qui vont requérir plus de personnel... quand même du personnel pour alimenter ces émissions‑là qui ont quand même...

4212             Je regarde «Québec ce matin» là, c'est quand même de 0500 le matin à 1000, donc c'est beaucoup d'heures à meubler et avec une très petite équipe vous allez... vous pensez que vous allez y arriver comment?

4213             M. CADRIN:   Disons que je n'ai personne d'engagé, O.k., parce que je ne pouvais pas... je n'étais pas rendu à l'étape de décider qui j'engagerais.

4214             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Je ne vous demande pas de nom.

4215             M. CADRIN:   Mais sans avoir de nom, je pense... j'ai beaucoup de personnes qui m'ont approché pour vouloir faire de la radio.  Je vais essayer de miser beaucoup sur la jeunesse et le nombre de personnes exactes par grille d'émission, je ne peux pas vous le dire exactement, mais ça va prendre au moins trois personnes par grille d'émission.

4216             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Parce que ça ne peut pas être la même personne qui va animer «Québec ce matin» et «Québec ce midi», je présume parce que ça fait quand même sept heures en ondes par jour là.

4217             M. CADRIN:   Probablement pas, non.

4218             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Il va y avoir...

4219             M. CADRIN:   Écoutez, au niveau de ce qui est le sport, O.k., je sais exactement qu'est‑ce qu'on va faire.  Il va y avoir une émission qui va être autour du milieu culturel, elle va venir vraiment du même personnel qui est autour de l'Impérial de Québec.

4220             Le matin, en date d'aujourd'hui, je ne le sais pas et ni le midi.

4221             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Et je regarde «Québec en affaires», vous n'êtes pas... ce n'est pas...

4222             M. CADRIN:   On a une alliance avec Desjardins et on pense qu'ils vont accepter de faire l'émission.

4223             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Donc, et puis ça va être une opportunité pour Desjardins faire la promotion de ses oeuvres ou de ses biens?

4224             M. CADRIN:   De donner une information, écoutez...

4225             LE PRÉSIDENT:   C'est avec des courtiers ou c'est avec... parce qu'il y a... Desjardins, là, il y a toutes sortes de monde?

4226             M. CADRIN:   Que ce soit Desjardins ou un autre ou une autre partie...

4227             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Non, non, mais il y a toutes sortes... il y a toutes sortes de fonctions dans une entreprise de cette importance‑là.  Il y a des gens qui font de la recherche, il y a des analystes, il y a des vendeurs, il y a des...

4228             Ils n'ont pas tous le même intérêt puis ils n'ont pas le même objectif et j'essaie de le cerner «Québec en affaires».  Si vous dites : O.k., on va travailler avec Desjardins.  Très bien, mais...

4229             M. CADRIN:   On va essayer de travailler avec une institution.

4230             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Et c'est logique de travailler avec Desjardins, son siège social est à Lévis, donc... puis c'est une institution importante du Québec, donc je vois très bien la logique, mais qu'est‑ce que vous allez demander à Desjardins de faire?

4231             M. CADRIN:   On va commencer par... on va commencer par regarder quelle proposition qu'ils peuvent faire pour enrober le cadre d'une émission si c'est possible.

4232             Mais comme je vous dis, je n'ai rien de signé avec personne là et je pense que j'ai encore un peu de temps pour y penser.

4233             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Oui, mais... c'est parce que j'essaie quand même de le cerner qu'est‑ce que vous avez l'intention de faire pour essayer d'être capable de dire quelque chose dans la décision.

4234             M. CADRIN:   Bien, je pense qu'une émission d'affaires, O.k., a sa place à Québec, O.k., une émission basée sur... faite par des spécialistes d'institution, je pense que ça a sa place.  Et c'est pour ça que dans notre grille on a mis une émission d'affaires.

4235             Maintenant, qui va la faire... va produire cette émission?  C'est sûr que c'est nous, mais qui va en être l'artisan, il n'y a rien de défini, mais c'est sûr qu'il faut que ça soit une émission qui va être à titre informatif.

4236             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Et qui va traiter plutôt de questions locales ou de questions plus générales, plus nationales, plus...

4237             M. CADRIN:   Je pense que ça peut traiter de questions pas nécessairement locales au niveau affaires, là, mais plus les mêmes questions qui se traitent dans différentes autres stations de radio, à savoir les placements, les REERs, la Bourse.

4238             LE PRÉSIDENT:   C'est parce que dans les autres stations de radio, ça se fait avec des capsules de 60 à 90 secondes.  Là, je vois une heure par jour.

4239             M. CADRIN:   Mais je pense qu'il y a de la place pour parler d'affaires une heure par jour.

4240             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Effectivement, je n'ai aucun doute là‑dessus, je veux dire, qu'il y a...

4241             M. CADRIN:   L'objectif qu'on se veut, on veut...

4242             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Il y a des canaux spécialisés d'ailleurs comme argent qui cherchent à nous informer 24 heures par jour sur les questions d'affaires.

4243             M. CADRIN:   Effectivement, avec beaucoup de répétitions.

4244             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Maintenant, le traitement des questions locales, vous entendez les aborder de quelle façon?  Il y a quand même des enjeux locaux... vos auditeurs, je comprends, seront généralement des amateurs de sports.  Ils vont vous écouter surtout pour les contenus sportifs, mais ils vont aussi vouloir savoir ce qui se passe dans leur territoire.

4245             Comment est‑ce que... comment entendez‑vous, parce que vous avez, vous prévoyez dans votre modèle qu'il n'y aura pas de salle de nouvelles, donc vous allez alimenter quand même vos auditeurs à partir de quel type?

4246             Vos auditeurs ont besoin quand même de savoir un certain nombre d'informations sur la vie communautaire, sur la vie politique localement parce qu'il y a même encore des élections, il y a encore des événements qui nécessitent d'être communiqués à l'auditoire.

4247             Alors, vous allez comment... je cherche à comprendre comment est‑ce que vous allez alimenter cette information‑là à l'intérieur de votre grille de programmation puis où est‑ce qu'on peut... où est‑ce qu'on va la retrouver puis comment est‑ce que vous allez la cueillir?

4248             M. CADRIN:   C'est sûr qu'il va sûrement avoir... on va sûrement avoir à traiter des sujets politiques et des sujets locaux, les sujets de l'heure aussi, sauf que notre objectif est toujours de faire du sport, O.k., et le milieu culturel.

4249             Sauf qu'on ne peut pas meubler 24 heures par jour avec seulement notre sport; on va devenir très très répétitif et c'est sûr qu'il va falloir avoir d'autres sujets et qu'on va développer d'autres... qui sont des sujets locaux.

4250             Et c'est pour ça que je vous dis qu'on va... notre objectif, c'est de permettre à plein d'organismes de pouvoir se servir des ondes de CHRC pour pouvoir se promouvoir.

4251             Je ne vous dis pas que ça peut être d'intérêt à devenir une station de radio avec d'énormes cotes d'écoute, mais si ça peut servir les organismes qui en ont besoin et qui ne seront jamais capables de se produire ailleurs dans d'autres stations ou dans d'autres médias, bien ça va être la mission qu'on va se donner.

4252             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Parce que dans une lettre que vous avez fait parvenir au Conseil, en réponse à un certain nombre de questions, vous nous avez parlé de la montréalisation des ondes puis j'essaie de voir comment... je comprends qu'avec le sport ça ne sera pas la montréalisation des ondes, mais avec vos contenus locaux, comment vous allez contrer cette montréalisation des ondes, là, parce qu'avec des contenus.... parce que vous allez être une propriété locale.

4253             Vous allez vous retrouver à être le seul propriétaire d'une station de radio dans le marché de Québec et même dans les médias électroniques dans le marché de Québec, à part Télémag, excusez‑moi.

4254             M. CADRIN:   À part Télémag, oui.

4255             LE PRÉSIDENT:   À part Télémag, à part Télémag vous allez trouver que les seules propriétés... la seule propriété locale donc qui aura à contrer l'ensemble de la montréalisation des ondes sur l'ensemble des autres stations.

4256             Alors, j'essaie de voir comment est‑ce que vous allez vous y prendre pour y arriver

4257             M. CADRIN:   On va être... on va produire localement pratiquement tout le temps.  Ce que vous voulez savoir, c'est le contenu?

4258             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Eh! oui.

4259             M. CADRIN:   Je ne le sais pas.

4260             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Vous ne le savez pas?

4261             M. CADRIN:   Non.

4262             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Mais une description du contenu, vous allez chercher à... vous n'avez pas de salle de nouvelles, vous n'aurez pas de... vous avez seulement des animateurs.  Allez‑vous avoir des recherchistes pour aider les animateurs?

4263             M. CADRIN:   C'est sûr.

4264             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Bon.  Et quelles vont être leurs fonctions à ces recherchistes‑là de faire des contacts avec des invités ou d'aller eux‑mêmes chercher de l'information sur le terrain?

4265             M. CADRIN:   Bien, ça va être d'avoir des contacts et puis d'amener du monde en onde qui peuvent intéresser nos auditeurs.

4266             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Parce que je vois aussi que vous allez avoir des lignes ouvertes.  Alors, à Québec, il y a des experts en lignes ouvertes et on a... il y a...  Et je vois que vous nous avez déposé une politique sur les contenus verbaux, politique d'ailleurs qui est la même que celle qui est en cours présentement?

4267             M. CADRIN:   Exactement.

4268             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Donc, il n'y a pas... elle n'est pas... certainement ne fait pas l'objet de contestation, mais vous dites que les émissions seront axées sur les... mais on parlera aussi d'actualité.  Il n'est pas prévu d'offrir de documentaire ou d'audio dramatique.

4269             Les tribunes téléphoniques seront limitées à des émissions telles le sport, tel «Sport Dimanche» et «Mon argent, mes finances» où il sera permis à l'auditoire de participer au sujet du jour.

4270             Cependant, quand je regarde votre grille horaire, quand je regarde «Québec ce matin» et «Québec ce midi»... non, «Québec ce matin», excusez‑moi, j'y vois le mot «tribune téléphonique».

4271             C'est une tribune téléphonique qui va être axée sur le sport ou c'est axé sur l'actualité?

4272             M. CADRIN:   Axé sur l'actualité, sur le sport, sur ce qui se passe à Québec.

4273             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Je vois que c'est écrit : «tribune téléphonique à caractère d'information générale».

4274             M. CADRIN:   Exact.

4275             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Donc, ça peut être les sujets du jour?

4276             M. CADRIN:   Ça peut être les sujets du jour.

4277             LE PRÉSIDENT:   On prend le Médiamatin puis on ouvre la page puis on dit, bon bien, tiens, ça c'est le sujet du jour.

4278             M. CADRIN:   On ne peut pas inventer la roue, mais je peux vous dire que...

4279             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Je pose la question parce que CHRC a quand même été un grand générateur de contenu à une époque ou avec des émissions qui répondent à ces descriptions‑là.  «Québec ce matin» a...

4280             M. CADRIN:   Ça ressemble à ce qui se passait avant à CHRC, c'est exact, mais il y aura toujours une émission le matin, qu'on l'appelle... on ne peut pas l'appeler «Québec l'après‑midi» c'est le matin.  Ça fait qu'il va y avoir une émission le matin, il va  y avoir une émission le midi et il va y avoir une émission dans l'après‑midi.

4281             Et quand on est en dehors de l'émission sportive qu'on sait que de 04 h 00 en montant on va faire du sport, bien ça nous prend des sujets, ça nous prend des animateurs et on ne peut pas inventer la roue là‑dessus.  Ce qu'on peut faire, c'est la façon dont on va le faire.

4282             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Maintenant, je vais l'aborder de front.  Vous ne prévoyez pas de service de nouvelles.  On voit depuis quelques semaines toute une polémique autour d'un autre média électronique qui veut lui aussi fermer sa salle de nouvelles et ma première question c'est : pourquoi vous fermez la salle de nouvelles?

4283             M. CADRIN:   C'est uniquement une question financière.

4284             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Les mêmes motifs que ceux que je peux voir dans les articles de journaux concernant TQS?

4285             M. CADRIN:   Je ne sais pas...

4286             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Bien, c'est dans les articles de journaux c'est ce qui est dit.

4287             M. CADRIN:   Ce que j'ai lu sur TQS aussi, mais en ce qui concerne CHRC, faire des nouvelles ça dépend du coût que ça coûte pour les faire.  Quand ton chiffre d'affaires est d'un million de dollars, tu ne peux pas avoir des... produire 50 pour cent de tes dépenses en service de nouvelles.

4288             Je suis 100 pour cent d'accord, O.k., avec les gens des... avec les mémoires qui ont été faits sur l'information, sur le côté journalistique, sur la montréalisation des ondes, sur la diminution de la qualité de l'information peut‑être à Québec, sauf que je pense que ce débat‑là ne peut pas être fait uniquement sur CHRC.

4289             CHRC est dans une situation où est‑ce qu'il est déficitaire.  Vous l'avez constaté vous‑même le CRTC au cours des années, j'ai vu vos renouvellements de licence qu'il était dit que combien le AM perdait de l'argent depuis pratiquement 10 ans.

4290             C'est évident que je ne prétends pas qu'on peut augmenter le chiffre d'affaires pour ramener l'entité CHRC au niveau où elle pouvait être voilà 15 ans ou 18 ans.  Les revenus ne sont pas là, on est sur une bande AM, une bande qui est difficile à capter dans les parkings, difficile à capter même à des places dans l'auto.

4291             Je pense qu'il y a un minimum et un maximum qui va se retrouver au niveau des revenus et il faut vivre avec les dépenses en conséquence et je pense seulement que le coût de la salle de nouvelles ampute au moins le break‑even de la société.

4292             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Mais vous avez beaucoup de succès, contrairement à ce que vous anticipez, ça s'adonne que, effectivement, vous êtes en mesure de générer davantage de revenus que vous pensiez.  Et, donc, la rentabilité revient, est‑ce que la salle de nouvelles revient?

4293             M. CADRIN:   Écoutez, je ne suis pas contre, moi, faire des nouvelles.  C'est que c'est uniquement la gestion d'une convention collective.  Je serais pour faire des bulletins des nouvelles, tout dépend le coût que ça peut coûter à la station pour les produire.

4294             LE PRÉSIDENT:   C'est sûr que, oui, c'est vrai que ça coûte cher faire des nouvelles.  C'est  un... mais c'est aussi.. par exemple, CORUS se spécialise à exploiter des stations avec des contenus associés à l'information puis a du succès.

4295             Ils nous ont plaidé ça pendant les deux derniers jours.

4296             M. CADRIN:   Je n'étais pas là.

4297             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Et donc, je ne le dis pas de manière facétieuse, là, mais c'est quand même... il y a des entreprises qui se sont... qui ont du succès avec l'information, mais qui reconnaissent, effectivement, que c'est prohibitif.

4298             M. CADRIN:   Si les grands réseaux peuvent avoir des salles de nouvelles et sont prêts à me vendre des nouvelles, je suis prêt à en acheter.

4299             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Vous êtes prêt à en acheter

4300             M. CADRIN:   Oui, je suis prêt à acheter des nouvelles; je ne suis pas prêt à...

4301             LE PRÉSIDENT:   À en produire les nouvelles?

4302             M. CADRIN:   À produire les nouvelles, O.k., en ayant une équipe de journalistes sur place.  C'est tout simplement une question de coûts.

4303             LE PRÉSIDENT:   C'est un peu... en fait, selon le même modèle que la station de musique classique à Montréal et à Québec parce que, effectivement, il n'y a pas de salle de nouvelles, il n'y a pas de journaliste, mais ils ont des bulletins de nouvelles qui leur sont... qu'ils acquièrent de tiers.

4304             Je sais que Radio‑Canada, pendant un certain temps, a déjà été leur fournisseur et...

4305             M. CADRIN:   Il y a d'autres... il y a des organismes qui en font.

4306             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Qui se spécialisent?

4307             M. CADRIN:   Qui se spécialisent dans la production de nouvelles.

4308             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Mais, ça, généralement ces organismes‑là ils fournissent des bulletins avec des contenus internationaux, nationaux.  Ils font moins d'information locale.

4309             M. CADRIN:   Il y a moins d'information locale, vous avez raison.

4310             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Mais est‑ce que vous avez... est‑ce que vous avez... je présume que vous n'en avez pas encore approché pour voir si vous pourriez trouver une fournisseur puisque... mais est‑ce que c'est une démarche que vous entendez faire?

4311             M. CADRIN:   C'est une démarche qui est faisable, O.k., que si j'ai la possibilité de faire des nouvelles avec la station que, oui, je peux envisager de le faire, si je suis capable de le faire à un coût abordable.

4312             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Ça, je comprends très bien que si vous êtes en mesure de négocier avec un fournisseur, vous connaissez votre limite.

4313             M. CADRIN:   Bien, là, disons qu'il faudrait que je parle avec mes avocats parce que peut‑être que la convention collective peut m'empêcher d'aller acheter des nouvelles ailleurs.

4314             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Donc, en somme, ce que vous me dites, c'est que la convention collective est contraignante et est‑ce que les contraintes de la convention collective se limitent seulement au personnel journalistique ou à d'autres secteurs de l'entreprise?

4315             M. CADRIN:   Les contraintes?

4316             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Oui.

4317             M. CADRIN:   Non, seulement au personnel... bien, les contraintes que, moi, je vois, O.k., au niveau financier, sont...

4318             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Associées à la salle de nouvelles.

4319             M. CADRIN:   ... associées à la salle de nouvelles, qui fait qu'il y a une difficulté à aller acheter des nouvelles à l'extérieur.

4320             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Prévoyez‑vous être en direct 24 heures par jour ou avoir des émissions qui sont pré‑enregistrées?

4321             M. CADRIN:   Non.

4322             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Si je comprends bien votre modèle, il n'y a pas... il n'y a pas d'émission musicale?

4323             M. CADRIN:   Non, il n'y a pas de musique.

4324             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Y compris la nuit.

4325             M. CADRIN:   Non.  On va essayer.  Je vous dis qu'au départ dans la négociation avec CORUS, on a demandé qu'on puisse prendre leur émission qu'ils font la nuit, le temps qu'on se mette en place, mais mon intention est d'avoir 24 heures de temps quelqu'un en ondes, qui fait que s'il arrive quelque chose à Québec, il y a quelqu'un qui est au bout du téléphone et qui répond, chose que vous n'avez même pas à l'heure actuelle.

4326             Je me souviens, les dernières élections, elles n'ont même pas été couvertes, il n'y avait pas personne les fins de semaine.  Le Manège a brûlé, personne n'en a parlé parce que c'était une fin de semaine.

4327             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Mais... en tout cas, ils en ont parlé par après.

4328             M. CADRIN:   Oui.

4329             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Ils en parlent encore.

4330             M. CADRIN:   Mais pas en direct.

4331             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Mais pas en direct.

4332             M. CADRIN:   Même la salle de nouvelles de CHFC, d'après moi, la fin de semaine, ils ne sont pas là.

4333             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Mais au départ, vous allez prendre donc des émissions de CORUS pour compléter.  Donc, vous allez être en direct à Québec pendant... quoi, de 0500 le matin à?

4334             M. CADRIN:   Si possible, on va être en... on va avoir quelqu'un qui va faire la nuit puis on va être en direct 24 heures par jour.

4335             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Parce que je vois dans votre grille horaire que vous allez prendre «Bonjour la nuit» qui est avec Jacques Fabi.  Ça, Jacques Fabi, c'est CORUS.

4336             M. CADRIN:   C'est ça.  Dans notre négociation, étant donné qu'on ne peut pas réussir à tout mettre en place rapidement, on a négocié avec CORUS qu'on pouvait prendre leur émission la nuit pour nous aider.

4337             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Et pendant les heures diurnes, là, ou les heures de radiodiffusion qui sont de 0600 le matin à minuit, c'est toujours Québec?

4338             M. CADRIN:   C'est toujours local Québec.

4339             LE PRÉSIDENT:   C'est toujours local Québec.

4340             M. CADRIN:   Sauf les Alouettes ou le Canadien.

4341             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Que vous allez prendre de...

4342             M. CADRIN:   Mais les Remparts vont être prioritaires au Canadien.

4343             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Comme les Nordiques étaient prioritaires au Canadien, c'est ça, c'est à bon droit.  Et si réellement ça ne marchait pas votre plan, il arrive quoi avec CHRC?

4344             M. CADRIN:   C'est impossible.  Écoutez, les faits sont là.  On a... si on prend toutes les entités qui ont de la visibilité, on a un réseau de partenaires qui fait partie des Remparts, qui fait partie du Challenge Bell, qui fait partie du Rouge et Or, qui... et même dans les plus petits, puis remarquez la Vieille Capitale aussi, mais ce n'est pas notre propriété.

4345             Mais autour de ça, il y a des partenaires et ces partenaires‑là vont nous appuyer au niveau de la station de radio.  Je ne pense pas qu'on... je pense que c'est ce qui va nous permettre aussi d'avoir... de limiter au niveau du personnel qui est le niveau des ventes.  Il va y avoir un bon bassin qui va être les mêmes personnes, O.k.  La comptabilité, ça va être les mêmes personnes qu'une autre entreprise.

4346             Les locaux vont être... d'ailleurs, on prévoit installer les locaux dans l'Impérial, au deuxième étage.  On pense, là, peut‑être pouvoir produire quelque chose au niveau de la scène aussi pour changer un peu la façon de faire de la radio, peut‑être de la radio comme ça s'est déjà fait, avec une foule en avant.

4347             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Monsieur Papin connaît bien ça.

4348             M. CADRIN:   Il va y avoir des synergies qui fait qu'on devrait réduire nos coûts puis il va y avoir des synergies au niveau des partenaires qui nous appuient partout dans nos activités à Québec, qui fait que je ne crois pas... je ne crois pas que ça va être quelque chose qui peut devenir extrêmement rentable, mais ça va être quelque chose qui va faire ses frais puis qui va servir à quelqu'un puis qui va servir à la communauté de Québec.

4349             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Dans votre demande, vous nous avez spécifié que vous étiez pour contribuer au développement du contenu canadien et que... je demandais si vous avez déjà pensé à comment vous allez utiliser les sommes pour lesquelles vous devrez contribuer, les associer à quelle organisation?

4350             Parce que vous êtes tenu en vertu de... sur une base de vos revenus projetés, de vos revenus de contribuer des sommes annuelles au soutien et au développement du contenu canadien.  Alors, compte tenu que vous êtes une station essentiellement de sports et d'information ou d'actualité, vous n'êtes pas tenu de soutenir nécessairement la production de musique.

4351             Or, je me demandais si vous aviez en vue des objectifs pour comment utiliser ces sommes‑là au soutien du développement canadien?

4352             M. CADRIN:   Veux‑tu répondre à ça, toi?

4353             Me CÔTÉ:   Si j'ai bien compris, le soutien à l'industrie n'est nécessaire que... n'est obligatoire qu'à partir du moment où une station de radio qui n'est pas déficitaire.

4354             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Ça, c'est les avantages tangibles.

4355             Me CÔTÉ:   Bon.

4356             LE PRÉSIDENT:   L'autre, c'est le soutien au développement canadien, c'est une formule, quelle que soit la station, qui est basée sur les revenus de la station.

4357             Me CÔTÉ:   Oui.  Je pense que ce bout‑là avait été répondu par CORUS au moment de la présentation de notre demande, si je me souviens bien, mais je n'ai pas les informations devant moi.  Je pourrais les retrouver si vous me permettez.

4358             On devait... je pense qu'on avait prévu de le faire au terme des organismes qui étaient proposés par le CRTC, je pense.  Mais je vous dis ça sous toute réserver, monsieur Arpin.  Si vous me permettez, je vais obtenir l'information et je pourrai vous la transmettre un peu plus tard.

4359             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Écoutez; je vais demander à mon collègue, monsieur Morin, qui aura quelques questions à vous poser.

4360             CONSEILLER MORIN:  Merci, monsieur le président.  Bonjour.

4361             Vous avez dit tout à l'heure que la nuit, vous pourriez intervenir, mais là, on voit bien que la nuit vous êtes avec CORUS.  Québec va maintenant être entouré de port méthanier, déjà une raffinerie, il peut arriver des incidents extrêmement importants.  Qu'est‑ce que vous faites la nuit si vous êtes avec CORUS?

4362             M. CADRIN:   J'ai dit que pour partir, on a... on va être avec CORUS.  Notre objectif est d'être 24 heures, avoir quelqu'un, une présence qui réponde au téléphone, pas une machine, qui est capable de parler, qui est là.

4363             CONSEILLER MORIN:   Je comprends votre objectif, mais c'est dans combien d'années votre objectif?

4364             M. CADRIN:   Si possible, le plus rapidement possible.  Tant qu'on ne sera pas capable de le faire ou qu'on n'aura pas trouvé les personnes pour le faire ou la formule, on va continuer avec CORUS avec leur émission de nuit.

4365             CONSEILLER MORIN:   Vous dites que vous pourriez faire des profits dès la deuxième année?

4366             M. CADRIN:   J'ai dit que normalement on pourrait faire des profits.

4367             CONSEILLER MORIN:   Ce que vous avez déposé.

4368             M. CADRIN:   Exactement.  Je pense que dès la première année on devrait atteindre probablement le break‑even.

4369             CONSEILLER MORIN:   Vous savez que les radios de sports à travers le pays, ce n'est pas très reluisant.

4370             M. CADRIN:   On avait des équipes de hockey qui ne marchaient pas à travers le pays puis il y avait un Championnat du monde qui ne marchait pas à travers la province puis, finalement, ça marche.  Ça fait que je crois qu'on est capable de faire marcher ça.

4371             CONSEILLER MORIN:   Parce que si on regarde depuis 2005, les radios commerciales de type sportif à travers le pays, c'est des pertes entre pratiquement cinq et un peu plus de six millions.  Je pense que la dernière année, il y a quelques années, une station ‑‑ j'ai les chiffres quelque part ‑‑ à Vancouver a fait de l'argent, mais c'est vraiment une année sur les cinq dernières années, qu'une des cinq stations a fait de l'argent.

4372             Et vous, tout à coup, dans une station qui était boiteuse, qui est sur la bande AM, vous pensez faire des profits?

4373             M. CADRIN:   Les profits que vous avez sont de l'ordre de 40 000 $ là.  Entre un profit puis une perte de 25 000 $ ou de 40 000 $ là, c'est très proche.

4374             Je pense qu'on est capable avec les revenus qui existent présentement dans cette station‑là, avec une augmentation des revenus actuels, dû au fait qu'on a des partenaires à l'intérieur de la Ville de Québec, on est plus proche des annonceurs, je pense qu'on est capable d'augmenter les revenus de l'ordre de ce que l'on a déposé et je pense qu'on est capable de réduire les dépenses pour être proche d'un break‑even.

4375             CONSEILLER MORIN:   Vous venez de parler de partenaires.  Au point de vue information, comme vous serez associé de très près à ces partenaires‑là, est‑ce que vous avez mis en place un certain nombre de mesures qui vous permettraient de ne pas vous placer en conflit d'intérêt ou, en tout cas, de gérer vos conflits d'intérêt s'il devait y en avoir?

4376             M. CADRIN:   On n'a pas mis de mesure comme telle.  On va voir si on est tout le temps en conflit, mais je n'ai pas l'impression qu'on va être en conflit d'intérêt avec personne.

4377             CONSEILLER MORIN:  Est‑ce que, dans un ordre d'idée...

4378             M. CADRIN:   Solliciter un annonceur en lui demandant de nous appuyer ou le solliciter en lui demandant, en lui présentant un plan de publicité, c'est la même chose là.  Il va y avoir de la publicité puis il va nous appuyer.

4379             Les gens qui ont commencé à nous appuyer comme commanditaires au départ du Rouge et Or en ont tous retiré plus que les montants qu'ils ont payés en visibilité.  C'est la même chose qui est arrivée au niveau des Remparts et c'est la même chose qui va arriver au niveau du Challenge Bell dont on s'occupe.

4380             Je pense que c'est une question de confiance.  Si les partenaires ont confiance en nous, et je crois qu'ils ont confiance en nous parce qu'on a livré la marchandise, je pense qu'ils vont nous appuyer, ce qui fait qu'on va maintenir facilement les revenus actuels.

4381             Il s'agit maintenant de vivre avec les revenus qu'on a et de ne pas avoir plus de dépenses que les revenus.

4382             CONSEILLER MORIN:   Vous proposez d'abandonner la programmation locale en terme de nouvelles.  Est‑ce que vous connaissez des cas qui auraient été évoqués précédemment dans des Décisions du Conseil où on aurait sacrifié, justement, un service des nouvelles, où on aurait fait une exception pour maintenir ou, en tout cas, pour développer un nouveau format sportif à partir de l'achat d'une licence antérieure qui avait été consacrée aux nouvelles?

4383             M. CADRIN:   Non, je ne connais pas de cas.

4384             CONSEILLER MORIN:   Merci.

4385             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Merci, monsieur Cadrin.  On va entendre les intervenants et, après ça, on vous réentendra en réplique.

4386             M. CADRIN:   Merci beaucoup.

4387             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Bienvenue.

4388             LA SECRÉTAIRE;  Alors, monsieur le président, j'inviterais maintenant le Conseil provincial du secteur des communications du Syndicat canadien de la Fonction publique à se présenter en avant, s'il vous plaît.

‑‑‑ Pause

4389             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Alors, monsieur André Proulx comparaît pour le Syndicat.  Si vous voulez nous présenter votre collège et vous aurez dix minutes pour votre présentation.  Merci.

INTERVENTION

4390             M. PROULX:  Monsieur le président, messieurs les conseillers, bonjour.  Je m'appelle André Proulx, je suis président du Syndicat des employés de CHRC et je suis à l'antenne de cette station depuis 41 ans maintenant.  Lisa Djevahirdjan du Service de recherche du Syndicat canadien de la fonction publique m'accompagne.

4391             Nous sommes heureux d'être ici pour exprimer en personne nos inquiétudes face au projet mis de l'avant par l'acquéreur proposé, le Groupe Cadrin Tanguay Roy pour la station radiophonique CHRC.

4392             Fondée en 1926, CHRC, la plus vieille radio de Québec, a toujours témoigné avec ses journalistes des grandes événements qui ont marqué la région.  D'emblée, le Syndicat de CHRC veut réaffirmer qu'il ne s'oppose pas entièrement à cette demande, mais à un aspect fondamental, la fermeture définitive de la salle des nouvelles.

4393             La grande majorité des intervenants, suite à l'Avis Public 2007‑18, a souligné avec raison son inquiétude face à l'avenir de l'information, autant à la station CHRC que dans la région de Québec.  La transaction que vous devez évaluer met en péril la diversité des voies en information dans la région déjà largement fragilisée par les nombreuses coupures journalistiques dans différents médias.

4394             Déjà au moment de l'écriture du mémoire dans le cadre de cette audience la situation dans la Ville de Québec était grave.  Maintenant, elle est tragique car depuis, nous avons appris que TQS veut également éliminer son service d'information.

4395             L'annonce a soulevé un tollé général.  Les grands acteurs de la Société civile, les Syndicats, les Chambres de Commerce, les organisations communautaires et même la classe politique se sont soulevés.  Ils ont tous clamé haut et fort leur indignation face au projet de Remstar.

4396             Dans le dossier de CHRC quelque 20 intervenants ont exprimé l'importance de leur attachement à cette salle de nouvelles, deux députés, des entreprises de relations publiques, des journalistes et professeurs, et caetera.

4397             Par contre, seulement trois intervenants se sont prononcés en faveur de la proposition du Groupe Cadrin, parmi eux, Régis Labeaume, Maire de Québec, mais la position du Maire dans ce dossier est incohérente.

4398             Dans le dossier de TQS, un dossier quasi identique, il conteste la fermeture de la salle des nouvelles.  Dans le cas de TQS, il se dit déterminé à lutter devant le CRTC et il souhaite même en saisir les Tribunaux.

4399             Il est clair que l'accès à une diversité des voix en information est un droit fondamental et le Maire est prêt à aller loin pour le protéger.  Peut‑être le Maire a‑t‑il changé d'avis dans le cas de CHRC?  Nous le soupçonnons.

4400             Dans la foulée qui a suivi l'annonce à TQS, le Maire a été questionné sur sa position dans le dossier de CHRC.  Il a dit, en parlant de CHRC:  «Je veux de la production et des nouvelles locales.»

4401             En entrevue à la Station FM 93,3, le Maire répond à la question sur la différence entre CHRC et TQS en disant: «Je commence à avoir de la misère avec CHRC.  Je vais être honnête avec vous.»  Nous invitons le Maire à poursuivre dans cette voie et aussi à rejoindre les rangs des opposants.

4402             La situation à Québec est devenue catastrophique.  La région souffre des nombreuses coupures en cascade dans le secteur médiatique.  Les salles de nouvelles écopent, la production locale agonise et la montréalisation des ondes s'accélère.

4403             Évidemment, il y a TQS qui veut complètement éliminer son Service d'information.  La station anglophone de Québec, Global Television, a fermé sa salle de nouvelles de Québec.

4404             En novembre dernier, TVA Québec annonce une réorganisation de la salle des nouvelles, 16 postes à temps sont abolis et TVA réduit sa production locale puisque l'émission «La Vie à Québec» a disparu des ondes.

4405             Janvier 2008, la direction de la station de Rythme FM de Québec abolit cinq postes.

4406             Finalement, les journalistes du Journal de Québec sont en lock‑out depuis plus d'un an.  Et quoique impressionnante, cette liste n'est pas exhaustive.

4407             La Loi sur la radiodiffusion dit que le système doit servir à sauvegarder, enrichir et renforcer la structure culturelle, politique, sociale et économique du Canada.  Sans salle de nouvelles, cette mission du système de radiodiffusion est sabordée.

4408             Dans sa présentation, la requérante met beaucoup d'emphase sur sa mission de radio sportive.  Nous constatons l'intérêt du Groupe Cadrin pour les sports et la culture vu leur implication dans des propriétés de ce type dans la région de Québec.  Cette station serait un outil idéal pour le placement de leurs produits.

4409             Par contre, le Conseil doit examiner la demande pour ce qu'elle est vraiment : une copie quai conforme de ce qu'offre CHRC aujourd'hui, moins la salle de nouvelles.

4410             La donnée la plus révélatrice réside dans l'analyse de la grille horaire aux principales heures d'écoute de la journée.  Dans la grille horaire du lundi au vendredi, de 0530 à 1800, la requérante propose seulement 24 pour cent des heures dédiées aux sports contre 76 pour cent de programmation généraliste variée.

4411             À notre point de vue, cela ne justifie en rien de détruire une salle de nouvelles, surtout quand 76 pour cent de la programmation proposée aux principales heures d'écoute de la semaine vise un large public local avec une programmation généraliste.

4412             L'offre pour l'auditeur n'est en rien bonifiée, bien au contraire.  Encore moins de journalistes sillonneraient les rues de la Capitale pour rapporter l'information importante et nécessaire de la vie démocratique.

4413             Encore récemment, lors de l'incendie qui a détruit le Manège Militaire, nous étions là, un reporter de CHRC était des premiers sur place à rapport les événements.  L'information mise en ondes par CHRC a été entendue par des militaires affectés à ce Régiment et ils ont réussi à se rendre rapidement sur les lieux et à sauver les couleurs du Régiment.

4414             Pour sa licence actuelle, CORUS s'était engagée à offrir beaucoup d'information locale et de présenter des nouvelles en boucle.  Mais voilà que le Groupe Cadrin propose carrément le vide, soit zéro heure de nouvelles.

4415             Le Conseil s'attend à ce qu'un acquéreur ait un véritable plan de relance lorsqu'il y a transfert d'une licence.  CORUS présent avoir fait des efforts considérables pour relancer la station, mais nous sommes complètement en désaccord avec cette affirmation.  Nous ne partageons sans doute pas leur définition du mot «effort».

4416             La ventilation des initiatives pour relancer la station décrite dans la correspondance entre CORUS et le CRTC est datée du 8 novembre 2007, est désolante.  On parle de couverture d'événements qui vont de soi et qui ne constitue pas un effort particulier.

4417             On parle de campagne publicitaire qui ne diffère presqu'en rien de ce qui se faisait minimalement auparavant.  Et quand on évoque devant le Conseil le tirage de trois Blackberry, des billets pour une partie de hockey, des souffleuses à neige et d'autre babioles du genre, on ne peut s'empêcher d'être gêné.  Mais de quels efforts dignes de ce nom parle‑t‑on ici?

4418             Monsieur Jacques Tanguay, dans un article du 25 avril 2008 du MédiamatinQuébec tire le même constat que nous:  «Il y a longtemps que CORUS a cessé de s'occuper de CHRC.»  Nous partageons entièrement cet avis.

4419             Lors des audiences menant à l'octroi de l'actuelle licence de CHRC détenue par CORUS, le Conseil a noté les nombreuses interventions du public et de différents dirigeants d'organismes réclamant que le CRTC intervienne pour préserver nos institutions locales d'information qui étaient sérieusement menacées.

4420             Elles sont encore plus menacées aujourd'hui, et nous vous demandons d'agir fermement et sans équivoque.  Préservez cette dernière véritable salle des nouvelles de la radio privée à Québec.

4421             Je vous remercie et nous sommes disponibles pour répondre à vos questions.

4422             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Merci, monsieur Proulx.

4423             Un premier commentaire avant de parler de question.  Juste avant la section qui s'appelle «Grille horaire», vous parlez du système puis vous parlez de la mission du système, je pense que le système s'entend de toutes les composantes et non d'une station en particulier.

4424             C'est la définition qui a été retenue depuis que la Loi sur la radiodiffusion parle du système, en tout cas, de la radiodiffusion.  Donc, ce n'est pas...

4425             Mais, cependant, de l'information locale, j'en conviens avec vous au moment des présentes, il y en a... c'est un enjeu particulier, c'est un enjeu d'autant plus important que le Conseil, au mois de février dernier, a émis une nouvelle politique sur la diversité des voix, qui fait appel, effectivement, à la pluralité des voix, mais aussi à la programmation locale et une de ses composantes, l'information locale.

4426             Cependant, monsieur Cadrin nous a dit un peu plus tôt aujourd'hui qu'il n'est pas réfractaire à l'information locale, mais il veut trouver un moyen d'en faire différemment.

4427             Je ne sais pas si vous avez des observations à partager avec nous sur ce que monsieur Cadrin nous a dit un peu plus tôt.

4428             M. PROULX:  Bien, en faire différemment avec qui, comment?  Il faut savoir.  S'il veut acheter des bulletins de nouvelles d'ailleurs, il y a déjà d'autres postes, comme vous le mentionniez tantôt, le poste de musique classique qui achète des nouvelles.

4429             Mais si les gens font ça, ils vont avoir la même nouvelle partout dans tous les postes.  Ça, ce n'est pas très bien penser à nos fonctions à nous.  On veut avoir une salle de nouvelles à CHRC, comme elle existe depuis... depuis toujours, puis de la garder comme ça parce que les gens sont beaucoup mieux informés et ont une façon... on a une façon de faire les nouvelles.  L'autre poste a sa façon à lui aussi.

4430             La télévision a sa façon, les journaux ont leur façon et c'est de cette forme‑là qu'on veut garder la salle des nouvelles.

4431             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Et ça, évidemment... et actuellement, il y a combien d'employés à la salle de nouvelles de CHRC?

4432             M. PROULX:  À la salle des nouvelles, il y a cinq journalistes et un journaliste sportif.

4433             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Les cinq journalistes sont cinq journalistes à temps plein?

4434             M. PROULX:   Oui, cinq journalistes à temps plein.

4435             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Et qui fournissent l'information de quoi?  En général, là, je veux dire, au Manège Militaire, c'est quelqu'un qui s'est...

4436             M. PROULX:   C'est quelqu'un qui, lui...

4437             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Qui était en devoir ce soir‑là, mais qui n'est pas nécessairement à la station.

4438             M. PROULX:   C'est ça.  Lui est disponible partout, 24 heures sur 24.

4439             LE PRÉSIDENT:   En disponibilité.  Ah! bon, vous avez quelqu'un qui est en disponibilité 24 heures sur 24.

4440             M. PROULX:   Sept jours‑semaine.

4441             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Un rover, oui.

4442             M. PROULX:   Quand il y a des événements majeurs comme celui‑là, tout à l'heure monsieur Cadrin a dit qu'il n'y avait personne qui avait couvert ça, mais Bruno Perron, notre reporter était sur place.

4443             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Donc, vous avez quelqu'un qui est en disponibilité continue?

4444             M. PROULX:   Oui.

4445             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Et qui, effectivement, est essentiellement sur la route et non... et non à la station..

4446             M. PROULX:   Et il est rarement à... bien, le matin, il est à la station, mais le restant de la journée il peut être au Palais de Justice.  Il couvre les activités du Palais de Justice et quand il se passe des choses majeures en dehors de ça, il accourt.

4447             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Et il se repose quand, ce journaliste‑là?

4448             M. PROULX:   Il doit dormir comme sur un quart de travail, là, trois heures le matin, deux heures l'après‑midi, deux, trois heures la nuit, je ne sais pas.  Ça, c'est lui qui pourrait vous répondre à ça.

4449             LE PRÉSIDENT:   C'est lui qui le gère.

4450             M. PROULX:   Mais ce n'est pas un gros dormeur, probablement.

4451             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Et donc, ça veut dire qu'à la station même, vous êtes quatre journalistes puisque lui...

4452             M. PROULX:   C'est ça.

4453             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Et vous faites de l'information à compter de 0530 le matin jusqu'à?

4454             M. PROULX:   Jusqu'à 04 h 00 l'après‑midi.

4455             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Jusqu'à 04 h 00 et le samedi et le dimanche également?

4456             M. PROULX:   Non.  Ça, c'est lui qui est en disponibilité qui fait ça.

4457             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Qui couvre, au besoin, si...

4458             M. PROULX:   Voilà.

4459             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Selon la... et non... donc, il n'y a pas d'information locale comme telle les samedi et dimanche.

4460             M. PROULX:   Seulement s'il y a quelque chose de majeur, c'est notre reporter qui embarque en ondes.

4461             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Maintenant, comme journaliste, participez‑vous à la programmation dans les émissions comme «Québec ce matin», «Québec ce midi», «Québec en affaires», «Québec...»?

4462             M. PROULX:   On fait seulement les nouvelles.

4463             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Vous faites seulement des nouvelles.

4464             M. PROULX:   Hum!  Le reporter, lui, il peut embarquer avec l'animateur.

4465             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Oui.

4466             M. PROULX:   Il peut faire... mais, nous, c'est seulement les nouvelles.

4467             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Donc, vous faites... donc, s'il y a un événement majeur, vous ne faites pas de commentaire; vous ne faites que la nouvelle là‑dedans?

4468             M. PROULX:   Nous, on parle avec notre reporter à ce moment‑là mais c'est lui qui fait le travail sur le terrain.

4469             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Donc, vous n'avez pas non plus une fonction de recherchiste pour un parallèle pour alimenter les émissions d'actualité?

4470             M. PROULX:   Oui, ça arrive à l'occasion aussi, là, parce que c'est comme... c'est une équipe en fin de compte, là, on se donne un coup de main à gauche et à droite.

4471             Mme DJEVAHIRDJAN:  En quelque sorte, ils sont là pour un peu encadrer aussi ce qui remonte.  Ils travaillent aussi pour être sûr que la... pour vérifier l'information qui va en ondes aussi.  Oui, ils font un support des animateurs qui sont en ondes directement.

4472             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Donc, si selon son projet monsieur Cadrin veut conserver ces émissions «Québec ce matin», «Québec ce midi» comme il nous l'a mentionné, il a besoin de l'apport des journalistes, ne serait‑ce que pour soutenir son contenu.  Ses animateurs ont besoin d'avoir l'information?

4473             M. PROULX:   C'est évident.

4474             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Et ils ne peuvent pas juste se fier au Soleil puis à Québecmatin?

4475             M. PROULX:   Non, non.  Il y a beaucoup de recherche à faire.  Quand on est journaliste, là, il n'y a pas seulement écrire la nouvelle puis aller la lire en ondes.  Il faut faire des recherches pour être sûr de notre affaire aussi.

4476             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Maintenant, monsieur Cadrin nous a dit que sa problématique première était une problématique de nature économique et que, actuellement, il a utilisé les mots de la station est dans un état moribonde... moribond et qu'il a, lui, un plan de sauvetage et son plan de sauvetage, bien, il nous l'a expliqué dans ses propres mots et, évidemment, ça ne comprend pas de Service de nouvelles.

4477             Est‑ce que vous êtes d'accord que la station est dans un état moribond?

4478             M. PROULX:   Bien, c'est sûr que ce n'est pas le Pérou, hein!  Mais si on y mettait beaucoup d'énergie à produire des choses intéressantes, engager des animateurs de haut niveau, on pourrait vendre les nouvelles aussi.  Au lieu d'acheter les nouvelles d'ailleurs, on pourrait vendre plus facilement les nouvelles, les émissions de nouvelles, et caetera.