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Offrir un contenu dans les deux langues officielles
Prière de noter que la Loi sur les langues officielles exige que toutes publications gouvernementales soient disponibles dans les deux langues officielles.
Afin de rencontrer certaines des exigences de cette loi, les procès-verbaux du Conseil seront dorénavant bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience et la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience.
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE
THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS
COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT
LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT / SUJET:
Various broadcasting applications further to calls for
applications for licences to carry on radio programming
undertakings to serve Chilliwack and Vancouver, British Columbia /
Plusieurs
demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes
de licence de
radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'une
entreprise de
programmation de radio pour desservir Chilliwack et
Vancouver
(Colombie-Britannique)
HELD AT:
TENUE À:
The Empire Landmark The Empire Landmark
1400 Robson Street
1400, rue Robson
Vancouver, B.C.
Vancouver (C.-B.)
February 29, 2008 Le 29 février 2008
Transcripts
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur
les langues
officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil
seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page
couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à
l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des
matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un
compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel,
est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux
langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée
par le
participant à l'audience
publique.
Canadian Radio‑television and
Telecommunications Commission
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes
Transcript / Transcription
Various broadcasting applications further to calls for
applications for licences to carry on radio programming
undertakings to serve Chilliwack and Vancouver, British Columbia /
Plusieurs
demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes
de licence de
radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'une
entreprise de
programmation de radio pour desservir Chilliwack et
Vancouver
(Colombie-Britannique)
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Helen del Val
Chairperson / Présidente
Rita Cugini
Commissioner / Conseillère
Elizabeth Duncan
Commissioner / Conseillère
Peter Menzies
Commissioner / Conseiller
Ronald Williams
Commissioner / Conseiller
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI
PRÉSENTS:
Jade Roy Secretary / Secretaire
Joe Aguiar Hearing Manager /
Gérant de
l'audience
Carolyn Pinsky
Legal Counsel /
Conseillère juridique
HELD AT: TENUE À:
The Empire Landmark The Empire Landmark
1400 Robson Street
1400, rue Robson
Vancouver, B.C.
Vancouver (C.-B.)
February 29, 2008
Le 29 février 2008
- iv
-
TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE / PARA
PHASE III (Cont.)
INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:
Variety - The Children's Charity 1357 / 7884
Wyckham Porteus 1359 / 7899
Christopher Gaze 1370 / 7978
City of Nanaimo 1372 / 7993
George Hanson 1375 / 8003
CVI Centre for the Arts 1381 / 8032
Gung Haggis Productions
1386 / 8064
MuddCats 1416 / 8271
Pacific Audio Visual Institute 1425 / 8325
Arthur Hughes 1444 / 8449
Gabriola Radio Society 1452 / 8501
Music B.C. Industry Association 1462 / 8568
NCRA
1472 /
8627
PHASE IV
REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:
Matthew Gordon McBride (OBCI) 1486 / 8701
Frank Torres 1488 / 8721
Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
1499 / 8793
- iv
-
TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE / PARA
PHASE IV (Cont.)
REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:
902890 Alberta Ltd. 1521 / 8950
Jim Pattison Broadcast Group 1525 / 8978
Narenderjit Pataria (OBCI) 1528 / 8999
The Coast 104.1 FM
1530 / 9021
Evanov Communications Inc. (OBCI) 1534 / 9045
In House Communications Inc. 1535 / 9052
Rock 95 Broadcasting Ltd. 1537 / 9071
6851916 Canada Inc. 1539 / 9082
Astral Media Radio Inc. 1541 / 9097
Harvard Broadcasting Inc. 1546 / 9123
Vista Radio Ltd. 1554 / 9166
Newcap Inc. 1562 / 9214
Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc. 1567 / 9241
0785330 B.C. Ltd. 1568 / 9248
Vancouver, B.C. /
Vancouver (C.‑B.)
‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Friday, February 29,
2008
at 0830 / L'audience reprend le
Vendredi
29 février 2008 à
0830
LISTNUM
1 \l 1 \s 78837883
THE SECRETARY: We will start
with Variety ‑‑ the Children's Charity. Please introduce yourself and you have
10 minutes.
INTERVENTION
LISTNUM
1 \l 17884
MR. STEWART: Good
morning. My name is Bob
Stewart. I am President of
Variety ‑‑ The Children's Charity of British
Columbia.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17885
I am also a former Chief of Police of the city of Vancouver during the
period 1981 to 1991. I have a long
history. I was born and raised in
the city, and I am quite knowledgeable of how it has developed over time and
moved from small village to metropolitan city.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17886
Of course, being an active community person, I am very attuned to current
affairs in this city. I am pleased
to appear this morning on behalf of the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group to support
their application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17887
I have watched the development of the radio networks, having been a
frequent visitor to radio and open line shows during my 10 years as a Chief of
Police and I became quite aware of the various personalities and people from
management in the stations.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17888
More of late, in my capacity as President of a major non‑profit in this
part of the world, I am quite knowledgeable of who is active in terms of
community service.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17889
Mr. Pattison, who leads the group, I have known for many years. I would not call myself a personal
friend of Mr. Pattison's, although if we met on the street ‑‑ and you can
meet Mr. Pattison on the street quite regularly ‑‑ he will stop and we will
exchange the time of day and move on.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17890
I am quite familiar with his style of management because he has a very
diversified portfolio.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17891
I am also Chair of the Board of Governors of a provincial Authority that
regulates the motor vehicle industry, and of course Mr. Pattison also has a very
active portfolio there. So I am
familiar with his business practice.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17892
In terms of his contribution to the community, I think it goes without
saying that he is very community minded.
He has been a great supporter.
He has a record of philanthropy I would say second to none in this part
of the world.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17893
He is not one who hesitates to reach out to the community, and in that
capacity I have been successful in my fundraising role of producing in this
province a major telethon, probably the biggest telethon in this country, the
Variety Show of Hearts, which just two weeks ago raised over $8 million in this
small province.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17894
We also run a number of radiothons with a variety of radio station
companies.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17895
I must say that Mr. Pattison and the Pattison Group are one of the
leading sources of funding for us in the remote communities of the province
where the smaller radio stations are located.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17896
I understand that the application is to include another FM station in our
market, and I have no hesitation in supporting this organization, the Jim
Pattison Broadcasting Group, in their application. I think they would make a great
contribution to this community.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17897
THE SECRETARY: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17898
We will now hear the presentation of Wyckham
Porteous.
INTERVENTION
LISTNUM
1 \l 17899
MR. PORTEOUS: I would like
to thank you for allowing me to come this morning to speak on behalf of the Jim
Pattison Broadcast Group and their application for an FM
licence.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17900
My name is Wyckham Porteous, I have been a
singer/songwriter/performer/playwright/artist in Vancouver for the past 20‑odd
years. I have lived in the
community for that length of time.
I have been active in a variety of endeavours to raise money for various
charities, as well as starting a foundation that helps recognize the plight of
the women on the downtown east side.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17901
I have been very, very familiar with the Jim Pattison Group, having lived
for a long period of time in Vancouver and, like Bob said, his record in terms
of philanthropy, community activism in terms of his work within the community
speaks for itself.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17902
My particular interest in this application is as an artist and someone
who has been recording music and releasing records since 1989. I have found it particularly frustrating
to be in an environment where it becomes increasingly difficult to have your
music heard by the general public and if you don't have an audience it becomes
increasingly difficult to make a living as a performer, particularly in this
country.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17903
The AAA format which they are proposing has been in existence in the
United States for a little over a decade in a large‑scale way. It has allowed performers that don't
necessarily operate in the under‑16 category of music to flourish and have very
strong careers, both in terms of record sales and in terms of just radio play
and impact in their concerts.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17904
Without that kind of exposure, even in the world of Internet, even in the
world of streaming radio, even in the world of satellite radio, it is very, very
important for artists to be able to feel that their music is put out there; that
they have an opportunity to reach out and have an audience reach back towards
them.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17905
The AAA format in the United States currently is responsible, I would
say, for the flourishing of Arcade Fire, The New Pornographers, Feist, when she
first started out, Sarah McLachlan.
All of these are Canadian artists.
All of these I feel, if there was not the AAA format in the United
States, would not have a career now.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17906
There has been absolutely no support for artists that do not fall into a
certain ‑‑ and I use the term "mainstream", but mainstream is relative
because whatever is popular becomes mainstream. But in this case mainstream being urban,
dance music, hip‑hop.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17907
If you don't have that kind of music in your repertoire, it becomes very,
very difficult to have a career because radio formats have become so tight as
compared with the late 60s and early 70s when radio was much more free‑form and
the broadcaster in whatever hour they were broadcasting had a lot more leeway as
to what kind of music they played.
And that is not the case these days.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17908
So it is very important to, I think, create a strong artistic community
within this country to allow a format that is perhaps a little more broad in its
demographic, a little more mature in its listening and enables artists that
truly excel in this country all the way back to Neil Young, to Leonard Cohen, to
Joni Mitchell, this is the kind of music that this country has produced on an
extraordinary basis.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17909
So that is probably the main reason why I am supporting this
application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17910
The Pattison Broadcast Group is another reason why I'm supporting this
application, because I believe that the record of Jim Pattison and his group of
companies has been one of commitment and a certain strength over the years in
establishing ties to the community, staying with the format, staying with the
business and really reaching out in a way that is quite unusual to a broader
base than just what perhaps would be his own personal
interest.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17911
I have met Jimmy on two occasions.
I spent 45 minutes singing while he played the piano on his yacht. I did quite a good version of Bye‑Bye
Blackbird and he plays it very well.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17912
I also know Glen Clark very well, who works for Jim in a very high
capacity. Although, as many people
have speculated between their relationship that they don't exactly seem like
people that would fit in with each other's business and political points of
view, it has been a very, very successful relationship. And Jim Pattison has proven to me,
partly through that, that his idea of business is one that transcends what we
would normally think of as political or ethical or certain points of view
lines. He is very, very ‑‑ a
very, very committed person and quite extraordinary.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17913
The Music B.C. Fund, the monies that they propose to help artists in B.C.
is also something that I think is very, very, very needed in a community which
is very expensive to live in, in a community that is in some ways forcing their
artists out through the price of real estate, through the price of just walking
down the street in the city.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17914
So it is very important that there is also a financial component that
actually helps artists in this market area to not just live, but to flourish and
be able to push their music to a much larger audience, allowing them to make a
living.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17915
That is my intervention or intervening for now. Thank you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17916
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17917
Commissioner Menzies will lead the questions. Thank you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17918
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thank
you. Good
morning.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17919
Mr. Stewart, I would just like to know your views on how in particular or
specifically would approval of this application assist the charity that you
represent?
LISTNUM
1 \l 17920
MR. STEWART: Well, I think I
would be less than being straightforward if I didn't tell you that if Mr.
Pattison had more stations, I would be certainly pursuing more radiothons to
raise money for needy children. And
based on his track record, I would feel very comfortable.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17921
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17922
Mr. Porteous, I am curious to know the situation you described regarding
formats becoming tighter or more strictly defined and having less leeway as
opposed to what you described as a previous era when there was more free‑form in
terms of decision‑making.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17923
Can you help me understand a little bit more about how that
evolved?
LISTNUM
1 \l 17924
MR. PORTEOUS: Well,
Vancouver in particular had a radio station ‑‑ and I believe it is still
CFUN, which is 1410. I don't know
if it is called CFUN any more.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17925
That radio station, and also CKLG‑FM, which is very famous now, where a
group of broadcasters started to broadcast the music of bands from San
Francisco, from New York, some European bands and were able to sort of instill
their personalities through the music they played and also through kind of how
they presented that music.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17926
Over the years, as radio stations became, I guess, much more of a
lucrative business opportunity, you started to have programmers that would come
in and recommend the songs that they felt should be played. So as that became the norm, which it
actually is the norm, that a consultant would be hired and say for 25 stations
these are the 40 songs you should be playing in the next two weeks and that's
all you should be playing.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17927
So it becomes very, very difficult for a new artist to break in, because
although one would never want to use the word payola, that is precisely what it
is.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17928
So to have a radio station that is committed to a format that is less
explored to me means that there is going to be more
opportunity.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17929
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Just
in general with the AAA format, what would prevent the same type of thing from
happening in terms of that where you ‑‑
LISTNUM
1 \l 17930
MR. PORTEOUS:
Nothing.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17931
COMMISSIONER MENZIES:
Nothing?
LISTNUM
1 \l 17932
MR. PORTEOUS: No. I mean, once a format becomes popular
and once that format starts earning money for its advertisers and the station
owners, there is nothing that would stop the proliferation of consultants and
programmers and all of that kind of thing.
So one can only hope.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17933
I believe if you are in the beginning of a process in a format, I think
there is such a thing as integrity and I actually believe that the Pattison
Group has that kind of integrity.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17934
Now, whether it stays that way and whether formats become the norm, there
is really not much you can do about that.
It all becomes about business, to a large degree.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17935
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: What
I'm hearing from that is that AAA is kind of a breakout from what has been
happening.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17936
MR. PORTEOUS:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17937
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: But it
would still be at risk in ‑‑ it would still be susceptible to the sort of
strict formatting dependent on corporate culture.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17938
MR. PORTEOUS: Yes. But I don't think that is different for
any format.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17939
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Yes,
right.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17940
Thank you. That's all my
questions.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17941
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17942
Thank you very much for taking the time.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17943
Oh, I'm sorry. I
apologize.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17944
Commissioner Cugini...?
LISTNUM
1 \l 17945
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Mr.
Porteous, just a couple of questions for you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17946
MR. PORTEOUS:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17947
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: I am on
a website right now that is wyckhamporteous.org ‑‑
LISTNUM
1 \l 17948
MR. PORTEOUS:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17949
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: ‑‑ and I can see here the headline is "At Long
Last... The UK Wait Is Over!" and that "Please Please Me" was released in the
U.K. in July.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17950
MR. PORTEOUS:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17951
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: How
much airplay do you get in Canada?
LISTNUM
1 \l 17952
MR. PORTEOUS: Right
now?
LISTNUM
1 \l 17953
COMMISSIONER CUGINI:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17954
MR. PORTEOUS: I would say
probably zero to three.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17955
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: How
would you describe your music style?
LISTNUM
1 \l 17956
MR. PORTEOUS: I would
describe it as actually music that is in a AAA kind of format; it's adult
alternative.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17957
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: And no
radio stations right now are playing "Please Please Me"?
LISTNUM
1 \l 17958
MR. PORTEOUS: To be fair, my
new album is just being released March 18th, so ‑‑
LISTNUM
1 \l 17959
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: That is
"Please Please Me"?
LISTNUM
1 \l 17960
MR. PORTEOUS: "Please Please
Me" and some other songs. So when I
say nobody is playing it right now, that is not completely fair because it is
just being released now. So
hopefully other people will.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17961
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So
would you be considered an emerging artist in Canada?
LISTNUM
1 \l 17962
MR. PORTEOUS: If I am, I
think there is something wrong with the category.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM
1 \l 17963
MR. PORTEOUS: Or maybe it's
a compliment to how I look, I don't know.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM
1 \l 17964
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: I see
you are playing Hughes Room on Tuesday night.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17965
MR. PORTEOUS:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17966
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: That
should be fun.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17967
MR. PORTEOUS: Yes, it will
be.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17968
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Yes,
too bad I'm here. Thank you very
much.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17969
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
for taking the time to participate in the proceedings.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17970
MR. PORTEOUS: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17971
THE SECRETARY: Now I would
call Boyd Thomson, Christopher Gaze, Vancouver Multicultural Society, Carla
Graebner, Nanaimo Magazine, CVI Centre for the Arts ‑‑ Nanaimo, Merv Unger
and Gung Haggis Productions to come to the presentation
table.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM
1 \l 17972
THE SECRETARY: We will start
with the presentation of Boyd Thomson.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17973
We will then start with Christopher Gaze.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17974
MR. GAZE:
Hello.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17975
THE SECRETARY: Are you Mr.
Christopher Gaze?
LISTNUM
1 \l 17976
MR. GAZE: Hello, my name is
Christopher Gaze, yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17977
THE SECRETARY: Perfect. You have 10
minutes.
INTERVENTION
LISTNUM
1 \l 17978
MR. GAZE: Thank you. I shall not need
that.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17979
My name is Christopher Gaze.
I am the Artistic Director of a Shakespeare Festival here in Vancouver
called Bard on the Beach Shakespeare Festival.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17980
I wish to speak to the fact that our audience ‑‑ it is not purely
just about Bard, as an ordinary citizen as well, but as far as the Shakespeare
Festival is concerned there is a massive interest in what we do here in
Vancouver. 87,000 people came to
Bard last year. That was for
different productions and that was every single ticket from beginning to
end. So it is quite a phenomenon,
frankly, in the arts.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17981
Our audience, as you would probably recognize, is the kind of audience
that listens to CBC; not wholly, but certainly that would be the main part of
it. It is very disturbing when you
drive around the city or indeed at home ‑‑ and I have had this where we
live for some years in Kitsilano ‑‑ in one portion of our home we cannot
get CBC ‑‑ it is very odd ‑‑ on 690.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17982
So it is alarming when I think that there are a lot of people out there
that may not be getting the message or the message is constantly an irritant to
them when it fades in and out. CBC
of course talks to its audience about many, many things and we are part of that,
the Shakespeare Festival. So it is
alarming that that message is not going out loud and
clear.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17983
I understand that Vancouver and perhaps one other place in Canada is the
only place that is still on the AM band and I don't understand that. We should be serviced the very best, as
the rest of Canada is, with a clear CBC signal getting through to
everyone.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17984
The CBC, one can argue and has been argued for so many years, is perhaps
the glue that holds Canada together, that makes us unified and understand who we
are from coast to coast. It is just
too important for Canada that that signal should be interrupted in any
way.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17985
So obviously I'm grateful that you have given me a few minutes to speak
to you. I am passionate about this
and you know very clearly what my message is.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17986
Thank you very much.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17987
THE SECRETARY: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17988
We will now hear the presentation of Vancouver Multicultural
Society.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17989
MR. UNGER: Actually, if I
may, on behalf of my colleagues and I, we have a presentation and one will
follow the other.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17990
My name is Merv Unger. I am
a City councillor and Acting Mayor for the city of Nanaimo on Central Vancouver
Island.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17991
If that is okay, I would like to proceed.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17992
THE SECRETARY: Yes, you may
go ahead. You have 10
minutes.
INTERVENTION
LISTNUM
1 \l 17993
MR. UNGER: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17994
I asked to make this presentation today because I strongly believe that a
CBC FM station on Central Vancouver Island would be of benefit to all of our
residents, businesses and local governments. The regional District of Nanaimo is the
fastest‑growing regional District in British Columbia and the city of Nanaimo is
the second fastest growing city in British Columbia.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17995
The trade area for Nanaimo on Central Vancouver Island, including the
west coast of the island, is 348,000 people. The presence of an FM CBC station
serving this population with a regional radio content goes without
saying.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17996
Vancouver Island has changed visibly in the past decade, with an average
7 per cent population growth rate in our region. This growth continues. Our business sectors, artists and
organizations, all of which make up our diverse communities, would support an
on‑air outlet for information and dialogue.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17997
We have a very vibrant economy, high levels of growth and quality of
life. Our city would benefit
greatly by having a greater profile in the national
dialogue.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17998
Nanaimo offers the largest retail shopping locations on Vancouver Island
north of Victoria and, more to the point, our shopping malls are designated
emergency shelters in the event of large‑scale community or natural
catastrophe. Our city has invested
in an emergency call alert system, but the presence of a single radio station to
broadcast immediate information to our residents, disaster response teams and
provincial emergency personnel would ensure an improved response all around and
an associated reduction in loss of life.
LISTNUM
1 \l 17999
In closing, I want to thank you for listening to this very brief
presentation and for inviting a response from the residents of Central Vancouver
Island and Nanaimo, as well as elected officials from all of the Vancouver
Island communities that have responded in writing to the potential of an FM
station in Nanaimo.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18000
We look forward to your favourable decision to grant this frequency
application by the CBC.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18001
Thank you very much.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18002
I would like to now defer to Mr. George Hanson of the Nanaimo business
community. Thank
you.
INTERVENTION
LISTNUM
1 \l 18003
MR. HANSON: My name is
George Hanson and I live in the city of Nanaimo. I am here at the request of Leslie
Lorenz of Nanaimo Magazine and the Chamber of Commerce who was not able to make
it here today.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18004
Madam Chair and Commissioners, thank you for this opportunity to
intervene.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18005
I am here representing Nanaimo business interests in support of the CBC
application. I am Managing Director
of the Downtown Nanaimo Partnership with a single mandate to revitalize downtown
Nanaimo.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18006
I am a long‑standing member of the Nanaimo Economic Development Group and
an ex‑officio board member of the Nanaimo Chamber of Commerce. I am a member of the Advisory Council
for the Malaspina Institute for Community Leadership and Innovation, a member of
the Destination Nanaimo Marketing Advisory Committee, a member of the Safer
Nanaimo Committee, cofounder of YES Nanaimo, which is a group of community
stakeholders committed to supporting initiatives that contribute to the general
wellbeing, social good and quality of life in Nanaimo. And I am the former President of the
Business Improvement Areas of British Columbia.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18007
I am here representing the full range of these Nanaimo business
interests.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18008
Business thrives in an environment of growth and to a large degree growth
is a product of increased profile, market awareness and continual reinforcement
of relevant information streamed to target audiences. Nanaimo is grossly underserved by radio
because of limited access to radio programming that is relevant to the Vancouver
Island marketplace.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18009
Because the Nanaimo region is not an important market to Vancouver, none
of the content of the 30 existing Vancouver radio frequencies speaks to our
needs or our issues. Therefore, no
profile is given to the island and no market awareness is built to help drive
the Nanaimo economy.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18010
Because the CBC signal from Victoria does not carry well to Nanaimo, or
to the rest of Vancouver Island and coastal region for that matter, there is no
real reason to develop content profiling Nanaimo as part of the CBC Victoria
programming.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18011
So even though Nanaimo could get some profile and market awareness on
CBC, we don't because the signal doesn't carry. Thus, as strange as this may seem in
2008, we in Nanaimo live in virtual radio isolation. We can't get our message out and we are
bombarded by messages from elsewhere with no meaning to
us.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18012
We have three local stations, two commercial and one community station,
that play their part and that incidentally support the CBC application. Otherwise, being only 34 kilometres from
Vancouver, our airwaves are dominated by Vancouver commercial radio
broadcasts. We hear all 30
Vancouver frequencies loud and clear, all of it irrelevant and none of it
promoting the island economy.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18013
Ironically, the CBC broadcast from Victoria that would be relevant and
would help profile our region can't be received by most people in our
marketplace.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18014
It may be difficult to understand from a Vancouver‑centric perspective,
and I say this as a former resident of Vancouver, but the Vancouver news has
nothing to do with us. Our weather
is so completely different from Vancouver because of the ocean and topographical
influences that weather reports from Vancouver are often quite literally the
exact opposite of the weather we are having in Nanaimo.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18015
And the traffic jam on the Second Narrows Bridge, well, it has nothing to
do with us.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18016
Nanaimo and the rest of Vancouver Island north of Victoria has been
changing and is changing at a phenomenal pace, and we are crying out for
improved regional, national and international coverage and
awareness.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18017
Downtown Nanaimo, for instance, with 700 businesses, 5,300 employees,
4,300 residents and more than $200 million in commercial property assessments,
is the regional focal point for provincial and federal government offices and is
the largest business district on Vancouver Island outside of
Victoria.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18018
We have more than $400 million worth of construction presently under way
in our downtown alone and the Destination Nanaimo Marketing Committee, of which
I am a member, is charged with guiding an annual budget of $1 million to attract
tourism and commercial business to Nanaimo.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18019
None of our issues, none of our events, none of our progress, none of our
stories that might drive market awareness and build appeal, none of our
challenges and successes, none of our community development or human interest
stories ever make it to the airwaves.
But we sure can tell you how far traffic is backed up on the Oak Street
Bridge and which nightclub is humming in
Surrey.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18020
With respect to the special interests promoted by the various Vancouver
applicants, these represent niche markets within an already broadly served
marketplace. Adding one more
frequency to the pool of broadcasting in Vancouver would be a drop in the
bucket, with no appreciable impact to the greater Vancouver general populace or
marketplace.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18021
In contrast to this, awarding this one remaining FM frequency to the CBC
would have enormous impact on the 348,000 people living on Vancouver Island in
Nanaimo North. This is not a niche
market; this is an entire regional population that is
underserved.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18022
In addition to the 348,000 people that are living in Nanaimo and
Vancouver Island North, we also have tens of millions of visitors that are
coming to Vancouver Island, touring the Island and who do not have access to an
adequate CBC signal while they are on the island.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18023
That is a huge part of our marketplace and a CBC station would serve them
dramatically.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18024
In addition to the opportunity for increased regional profile through
regular CBC news and other programming, combined with the potential for national
and international exposure through the CBC network, we would have a measurable
commercial benefit to our local businesses and regional economy. This one frequency, that would be a
small addition to the Vancouver marketplace, would be an ocean of opportunity
for Nanaimo and for the rest of Vancouver Island.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18025
Nanaimo and the rest of the Island region respectfully asks only that you
help us come into the 21st century.
We understand that the rest of the country, and other parts of the world
even, enjoys the CBC.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18026
We only ask that we too receive the benefits of the national public radio
towards which we all contribute.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18027
I am also aware that the CRTC has received a massive amount of written
support for the CBC from the Nanaimo area.
When you grant your approval for the CBC application, we will thank you
for recognizing our clear need for a higher level of
service.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18028
The Nanaimo business community supports you in a decision that will
favour the CBC.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18029
Thank you very much.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18030
THE SECRETARY: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18031
We will now hear from CVI Centre for the Arts.
INTERVENTION
LISTNUM
1 \l 18032
MS TANG: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18033
In view of the two former presentations, I will focus primarily on the
arts.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18034
Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you here at this public
hearing.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18035
My name is Camilla Tang. I
am from Nanaimo and I strongly support the CBC application which will bring a
much needed service to Nanaimo and other areas underserved by
radio.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18036
With my extensive involvement in several arts organizations, I am here to
represent our arts community as a whole.
I am a former President of the Nanaimo Art Gallery, a Commissioner of the
Parks, Recreation and Culture Commission of Nanaimo, as well as a member of the
Cultural Committee, and I am presently the founding President of the Centre for
the Arts ‑‑ Nanaimo, Chair of the Arts, Culture and Entertainment Committee
of the Downtown Nanaimo Partnership, and Chair of the Organizing Committee of
Nanaimo 2008 Cultural Capital of Canada Committee.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18037
I also Chair the Nanaimo Spirit Committee of the 2010 Legacies
Now.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18038
We have a vibrant, productive and excellent arts and culture sector in
Nanaimo and on the Island as a whole.
Several national and international artists have come from Nanaimo and the
area. Just two of note are Diana
Krall and Ingrid Jensen.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18039
And we have one of the highest per capita of artists with a wide variety
of disciplines living among us.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18040
This leads to a constant rise of emerging artists, some already receiving
international acclaim. Some of the
names to watch: We have Shae
Apland, baritone; Katy Bowen‑Roberts, singer and producer; Brendan Tang, a
structural ceramic artist; and Jillian Vanstone with the National Ballet of
Canada.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18041
In 2007 four Nanaimo‑ites received Juno nominations. The Booker Award went to a local writer,
and the Canadian ballroom dance champion, Zillion Wong, is from and still lives
in Nanaimo.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18042
Our local school jazz bands are among the highest winning bands in the
National Music Fest Competition.
They have spread the rumour that it is something in the
water.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18043
We have a series of professionals festivals, the Nanaimo Art Galleries
original works of Island artists, the Vancouver Island Symphony on the
Harbour.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18044
We recently had a superb production of symphony and dance, which Zillion
Wong was there, performing in Nanaimo and Comox to over 8,000 children and
theatre audiences.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18045
We have the Nanaimo Blues Festival, with international, national and
local performers, including First Nations; the Vancouver Island Children's
Festival and the Children's Book Festival, and on and on I can
go.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18046
Our professional theatre group does more than just good theatre. They have commissioned and performed
several original works recalling our fascinating history.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18047
We have a series on the Dunsmuir's, "Brother 12", the show best left
buried about the Chinese and the burning of Chinatown in Nanaimo; "The
Concubines Children", we did the play script and the play based on that very
successful book.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18048
And of course our colourful mayor, Frank Ney, are a few
examples.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18049
Our Port Theatre is nationally recognized and we shall soon be opening a
Class A museum with a dedicated Cosalish First Nations
exhibit.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18050
All of this and the work this community will continue to do brought
Nanaimo the distinction of being a cultural capital of Canada for 2008, and we
shall be enjoying over 36 celebratory and legacy events throughout the year,
showcasing a broad diversity of arts and cultures, including those of the
Nanaimo First Nation, the Francophone and multicultural communities. That is on top of the many arts, culture
and sports events usually occurring during the year.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18051
As a matter of fact, as an indication of the depth of cultural activity
on the island, the designation of Cultural Capital of Canada has been won by
three Island communities: Victoria
in 2005, Comox Valley in 2007 and Nanaimo in 2008.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18052
But all this work and all this energy and all this creativity, which
amounts to a cultural economy, is greatly diminished without the greater
awareness outside of Nanaimo.
Nanaimo and the Vancouver Island region has historically been underserved
by radio with the calibre of programming which the CBC delivers. As one of the fastest‑growing regions,
that is even more so.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18053
I commend the CBC for recognizing this deficiency and for their efforts
to remedy it.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18054
Nanaimo, because of its demographic and lifestyle, is a radio listening
community. The CBC is recognized
and respected for their support and encouragement of young and emerging artists,
and with their presence in this region the CBC will give them a fairer
opportunity to succeed.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18055
Yesterday I heard a comment made about arts other than music on the
radio, and the comment was, "How do we get ballet on the radio? I do not know."
LISTNUM
1 \l 18056
Well, from the programming I have heard and enjoyed on CBC, this is
exactly what CBC does. They get all
the arts of disciplines across the airwaves: music, dance, theatre, visual
artists, modern, classic, contemporary, new world, old world, everything,
through their interviews, their profiling, reports on events, and they play
music, too.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18057
As my son reminded me this morning, he said "Mom" ‑‑ he lives here
in Vancouver now. He says, "Mom,
Nanaimo is still only known for bathtub races and the Nanaimo bars, both the
eating kind and the drinking kind."
LISTNUM
1 \l 18058
But there is a lot more that we want the world to know about
us.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18059
I believe we not only need the existing programming of CBC but we also
need the ability to get our news out to a broader audience, nationally and
internationally. We need and
deserve better coverage of the calibre and experience of the CBC and the
addition of another commercial station will surely not meet our
needs.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18060
I understand that this may be the last FM radio frequency available in
our region and consequently it is the last opportunity to correct this deficient
service. So I urge you most
strongly to approve the CBC application for the FM frequency to serve Nanaimo
and the area, and we shall thank you deeply.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18061
Thank you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18062
THE SECRETARY: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18063
We will now hear the presentation of Gung Haggis
Productions.
INTERVENTION
LISTNUM
1 \l 18064
MR. WONG: Hello. My name is Todd Wong. I am President of Gung Haggis
Productions, which is a small, little company that puts together Robbie Burns
Chinese New Year Dinner.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18065
Yes, you can laugh about that, but again what I emphasize is that B.C.'s
pioneering cultures were not English and French, our two official languages of
Canada, but in B.C. our pioneers have been Scottish and Chinese. They built this
province.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18066
Getting that story out is important. Guess what, some of its roots are right
here in Nanaimo, because of the Dunsmuirs.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18067
Robert Dunsmuir, one of our Premiers of British Columbia, was a coal
baron. At one point he was the
fourth richest man in North America.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18068
Who did he employ in his mines?
Chinese labourers. And they
didn't like each other sometimes, but now they do. They have
inter‑married.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18069
This is one of the stories that CBC carries. This is what we share. When we talk about culture diversity, it
is not little ethnic pockets across this land. But did you know that Nunavut, the new
territory, actually has 11 different official languages?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18070
I was interviewed on The Current, speaking about should Canada have
another third official language.
These are some of the stories that bind us across this country as a
nation.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18071
One of the things I do in Vancouver here is as a community activist. I am also co‑President of the
Asian‑Canadian Writers Workshop. I
am President of the historic Joy Kogawa House, Director for the Canadian Club
Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18072
How do we share our stories with Nanaimo? How do we share the stories of Nanaimo
with the rest of Canada?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18073
My great, great grandfather, Reverend Chan Yu Tan, was a Chinese
Methodist lay preacher in Nanaimo and he was the subject of a CBC Newsworld
documentary that occurred last year, last summer. We went to Nanaimo to interview my
grand‑aunt who grew up with her grandfather.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18074
How do we get these stories out?
Having a CBC Bureau in Nanaimo would be a great
start.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18075
The competition for radio space is very busy. There are a lot of applicants for
commercial radio. I don't know if,
you know, I would rather listen to another Rolling Stones song again or can I
listen to Wayson Choy.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18076
What Camilla was saying, "Things Best Left Buried" was commissioned for
our Nanaimo by the playwright Marty Wong who lives in Alberta. But to learn that Nanaimo once had one
of the largest thriving Chinatowns in this country and was burned down to the
ground, it's terrible.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18077
When she mentioned Denise Chong, she is one of my heroes. Did you know that she also used to work
as a writer in Pierre Trudeau's office?
But her story, "The Concubine's Children" was set in Nanaimo and they put
on this play. And people from
Vancouver, we got excited and we went over to see it.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18078
How did we hear about it?
Through CBC radio.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18079
There is another time when the Chinese‑Canadian Historical Society here,
we started putting on history theatres.
We went to Vancouver Museum to put one on. The next place we put one on,
Nanaimo.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18080
Why? There is a good strong
history there.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18081
Also, Imogene Lim is one of the professors at Malaspina University
College. My grand‑aunt came and I
had my display about the Reverend Chan Legacy and she is looking at the pictures
going, "That's my granddad. That's
my mother. How did you get these
pictures?"
LISTNUM
1 \l 18082
How did she get there? It
was a good question, because one of her friends was listening to CBC radio and
they heard our story on "North by Northwest" covering issues from across
Canada ‑‑ sorry, from British Columbia, and she said, "Helen, we have to go
see the show." That is how she
heard about what was happening in Nanaimo.
It was very important.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18083
Also, speaking there was Janice Wong. She is my cousin. She was also featured on the documentary
"The Chan Legacy". And also there
is a CBC documentary called "Journey to Lotus Land".
LISTNUM
1 \l 18084
Janice wrote a book called "CHOW Journeys from China to Canada: Memories of Food and Family". It is because her family also came from
Nanaimo, and when she does book readings there, the community comes out and
supports it.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18085
How do we share the stories of Nanaimo? This is a really good way to do
that.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18086
I am fond of saying that meaningfulness is important to life and for
radio listeners in Nanaimo and environs having a CBC Bureau, having CBC access
makes a big, important step. There
are people across this Canada, my friends, who have said to me, "Look, I'm mad
about the CBC. We pay money, we are
taxpayers, and we can't get it."
LISTNUM
1 \l 18087
Canada needs a strong national radio programming. The CRTC is important to make sure that
happens.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18088
So we have to ask you to make sure that Canada and the CBC are fulfilling
their mandate of being responsible to citizens across this country and not to
leave Nanaimo, one of the fastest‑growing populations, out of the
loop.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18089
Last year a man contacted me.
He came from Nanaimo and he said, "I have heard about Gung Haggis Fat
Choy. I would like to have a Robbie
Burns Chinese New Year Dinner in Nanaimo."
LISTNUM
1 \l 18090
Why? He is Scottish. He came from Scotland. His wife is Chinese. Their children are growing up both
Chinese and Scottish and especially Canadian.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18091
We want to create more Canadian events in Nanaimo and to share what goes
on back‑and‑forth. I think this is
important.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18092
Rick Scott lives on Protection Island. Internationally known. He has created a wonderful CD called
"The Five Elements" with Harry Wong, who is like the Raffi of Hong Kong. Imagine. CBC has played that. Rick Scott and Harry Wong came and
performed at Gung Haggis Fat Choy when we had Shelagh Rogers, who now lives on
Gabriola Island, as co‑host.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18093
This is Canadian culture being made, happening, and we don't get put on
AAA radio format. I'm sorry, but
CBC gives an opportunity to emerging artists of ballet, of everything, of
writing.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18094
Ruth Ozaki ‑‑ I have to show you this. You have read "My Year of Meats"? Well, maybe you don't all live in
Vancouver. This was the one book
that won Vancouver Choice for the Vancouver Public Library this past year. Ruth Ozaki lives on Cortes Island. We have a thriving writers community up
and down the Island.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18095
Writers Festival. Wayson
Choy gave a great talk this past summer.
Wayson Choy lives in Toronto, but he grew up here in Vancouver and
Governor General's Award Nominee, "All That Matters".
LISTNUM
1 \l 18096
We have to make things meaningful.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18097
Also, this past Tuesday was featured on the Global News television TV
news. They are doing a week‑long
story about what is important in B.C., what makes B.C. world‑class? They said cultural
diversity.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18098
They interviewed me because I also run Dragonboat races, about Gung
Haggis Fat Choy, our intercultural concept that CBC really
gets.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18099
I have to ask you: Did you
know that Nanaimo has one of the largest, fastest growing dragonboat races in
this country? They are not just
being known for bathtub races; they want to be also known about dragonboat
races, because it is a way of bringing all the aspects, all the community, all
the ethnic groups together.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18100
So to help this flourish, please support this petition, this proposal by
the CBC for Gabriola Island, because CBC has enriched my life. Nanaimo stories have enriched my life,
my stories about Nanaimo have enriched Nanaimo's life and this is important, I
mean, how we can connect the small town, the small city stories from across the
country. People relate to that,
whether it is going to be in Gander, Newfoundland or Outlook, Saskatchewan. People can relate to these
stories.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18101
Whenever I travel across Canada, when I have heard Peter Zosky when I
have been driving across Idaho, I can feel proud about that. When I heard Shelagh Rogers, I was in
salt Spring Island. It was during
the CBC strike. It was so
heartbreaking, but it was so familiar to hear Shelagh's
voice.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18102
I have to tell you that when the CBC was on strike ‑‑ excuse me,
when the CBC was locked out, because there is a big difference there ‑‑
people across this country were upset and we realized in Vancouver how much we
lost because we couldn't access the CBC; arts communities, the non‑profit
communities who really use the CBC to tell their stories.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18103
This is part of what holds this country together and shares us
together. It is part of our nation
building.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18104
Thank you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18105
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
panel, for your truly heartfelt interventions. I can feel your passion is palpable and
I appreciate that.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18106
I think we are in a difficult spot.
The problem with Vancouver and B.C. is the scarcity of spectrum. If we could, if we had all the
frequencies, if the topography of our land were different, you know, everyone
could get a licence; everyone could be on radio. But that is just not the
reality.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18107
I think you have added to the debate today of we really are talking about
the frequency 104.1 and why it should be used to ‑‑ is there a greater gain
to use it to serve the sort of 100,000 versus adding to the diversity of music
on the mainland where the population is a million?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18108
It is a difficult decision.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18109
Now, Mr. ‑‑ I wrote all your names down if I can find it. Mr. Gaze ‑‑
LISTNUM
1 \l 18110
MR. GAZE:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18111
THE CHAIRPERSON: The CBC
always attracts a lot of debate, and that's great. That's great for the country that people
are engaged about our public broadcaster.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18112
We have interventions, yes, in support, but there were also a substantial
number of interventions expressing concern and opposing and saying that if CBC
is moved to the FM band that they will mow longer receive
CBC.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18113
What do you think we should say to those
interveners?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18114
MR. GAZE: I'm sorry, I don't
think I understand.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18115
Why couldn't they get the other band on FM?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18116
THE CHAIRPERSON: Because of
the topography. When CBC switches
to the FM band ‑‑ now, this is what they are telling us ‑‑ they will
no longer be ‑‑ the FM frequency is a line of sight and because of the
topography the AM band is currently more efficient in covering all of the
area. And when the AM band is
switched off and CBC is reliant on the FM band, then because of their location,
they will not receive coverage.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18117
MR. GAZE: Well, that's
puzzling to me. I'm not really in a
position to respond to that.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18118
I believed that the FM band will be the cure‑all for everybody to get a
good, clear signal of CBC. That was
my understanding. I'm not an
engineer.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18119
THE CHAIRPERSON: All
right.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18120
MR. GAZE: But I am told that
it will be very much better here in Vancouver. I can't speak for the rest of the
province.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18121
THE CHAIRPERSON: All
right.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18122
Can I just follow up with one question first, Mr. Wong, and then I will
get to you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18123
I just wanted to confirm that you were talking about difficulty of
reception in Kitsilano.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18124
MR. GAZE:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18125
THE CHAIRPERSON: We are
talking about in your case it is Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18126
MR. GAZE:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18127
THE CHAIRPERSON: All right,
great.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18128
Sorry, Mr. Wong, you had something to add?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18129
MR. WONG: Well, part of
the ‑‑
LISTNUM
1 \l 18130
THE CHAIRPERSON: Your
microphone, please.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18131
MR. WONG: Sorry. Microphone, here we
go.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18132
Part of the proposal for CBC is also to install a radio transmitter on
Gabriola Island. That will help
improve the service and it is going to be much better
reaching.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18133
So I think that answers the question.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18134
THE CHAIRPERSON: I think
yesterday when the applicants came back, there is a lot of debate on what
options are open and what options can be pursued, and then there is the question
of what pockets will be left unserved if you switch to the FM or if you remain
in AM.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18135
It is something that we have to sort through.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18136
Yes, Mr. Unger?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18137
MR. UNGER: Yes, if and when
the CBC does move to FM in Vancouver, we would be one of those pockets that
would not be served unless we get the frequency available from Gabriola Island,
which is within five to seven kilometres from Nanaimo.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18138
THE CHAIRPERSON: By the way,
Mr. Unger, I agree with you. I have
probably been to Nanaimo more often than I have been to Victoria, and my husband
and I and our family often say that it is one of the best‑kept secrets. In terms of the vicinity to the
amenities and what B.C. has to offer, it is a very attractive and vibrant
community.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18139
MR. UNGER: And the secret is
getting out.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18140
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I
know.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18141
I think the truth of the matter, too, is every community, large or small,
is important to the country and to CBC.
Even I think in CBC's own studies they were referring to ‑‑ and I
believe it was a cutoff point of about 100,000 in terms of when they were
looking at the cities that they want to ‑‑ I'm not putting this
right.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18142
In their study of what they called "City of Consequence To Serve Now",
Nanaimo is not quite there yet in terms of size.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18143
Why do you ‑‑ do you want to get one more kick at the cat of why you
think this scarce frequency that we have should be dedicated to serve a small
community rather than be of benefit to a larger community?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18144
MR. UNGER: Nanaimo,
according to the latest census, is 80,000 population. However, within the regional District,
which is scattered right around the Nanaimo and within very few miles, is close
to 150,000 people.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18145
If we take the rest of Vancouver Island North of the Malahat into
consideration, we are talking about a population of
348,000.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18146
So the figure for Nanaimo itself for the city limits would be under that,
but when you take the Nanaimo region, which would be covered very well by a new
signal, that would be well over the 150,000 mark and closer to the 350,000
mark.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18147
THE CHAIRPERSON: I think it
was Mr. Hanson who mentioned the stations currently serving Nanaimo, and you
said that the community station and then
I believe Pattison has The Q! and then Rogers has THE
OCEAN.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18148
Do those stations offer programming that are local to
Nanaimo?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18149
MR. HANSON: Yes. I think the two commercial stations, for
instance, certainly have local news and weather and sports and things like
that. But, as we all know, public
radio like CBC carries a whole range of informational programming that never
makes it on commercial airwaves.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18150
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18151
MR. HANSON: Our CHLY, the
Malaspina community station, certainly carries local programming as well. But a local community station obviously
doesn't provide the profile to the community beyond the community, and for the
full range and scope of what is going on in the community that is what the CBC
station would carry.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18152
THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't
know whether you had a chance to be here when CBC was
presenting.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18153
MR. HANSON: No, I
wasn't.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18154
THE CHAIRPERSON: All
right.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18155
Now, when we compared the program schedule of Vancouver and
Victoria ‑‑ as you know, what CBC is proposing to do is to really replace
the Vancouver programming that you will be getting with the Victoria programming
by the 104.1 frequency.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18156
The programming from the Victoria station will still be regional, and we
are talking about I believe it was about 28.5 hours of programming per week that
would be different from the programming you currently receive from
Vancouver. The main differences
will be during the morning drive and the afternoon drive.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18157
MR. HANSON:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18158
THE CHAIRPERSON: So we are
really replacing one regional program with another regional
program.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18159
MR. HANSON:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18160
THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you have
a comment on that?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18161
You are replacing ‑‑ about 90 to 100 hours programming per week
would still be the same as what we get in Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18162
MR. HANSON: I think the
significant difference there is that people that live on Vancouver Island relate
as Islanders.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18163
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18164
MR. HANSON: So regional
programming out of Victoria has significantly more relevance to the rest of the
Island listeners than any programming out of Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18165
As my colleague Camilla Tang so eloquently said, we also see this as a
critical stepping stone towards the future because of where we see the Island
going. So the frequency and the
tower give CBC Victoria the first step towards providing more programming in the
Victoria agenda that has relevance beyond Victoria because there are people
beyond Victoria that can actually listen to it.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18166
Second, we are looking forward to them being able to put a Bureau
together for Nanaimo eventually so that we would have a Nanaimo Bureau producing
Nanaimo programming that could be shared on the airwaves of B.C. and across the
country and internationally which gives, again, more profile to this growing
dynamic community.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18167
So I think my comment is this isn't about 2008; this is about the next
30, 40, 50 years. And as we are
growing on the island and the island economy are we going to continually be
strapped to programming that isn't relevant to us, or are we going to open the
door for the level of service in the Nanaimo and Vancouver Island region that we
really need now and certainly will need even more in the
future?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18168
THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you
aware of the intervention by the Gabriola Radio Society?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18169
MR. HANSON: I am aware that
they are hoping to be able to have a community station linked in somehow,
yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18170
THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you have
a comment about that?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18171
MR. HANSON: Well, we are
certainly supportive of community radio.
There again, it serves an interesting niche in the community that isn't
and probably never will be served by commercial radio.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18172
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Okay.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18173
I will ask at this point if my colleagues have any
questions.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18174
Commissioner Williams, please.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18175
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good
morning, panellists, and welcome to our
hearing.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18176
I have a question particularly for the two gentlemen from Nanaimo, Mr.
Unger and Mr. Hanson.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18177
In terms of transportation links, say the number of ferries coming in and
out of Nanaimo, what is the primary destination? Where is the heaviest traffic
run?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18178
MR. UNGER: Without having
the information at hand ‑‑
LISTNUM
1 \l 18179
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It
doesn't have to be exact.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18180
MR. UNGER: ‑‑ the ferries run every two hours in both
directions. It is one of the main
links to the mainland from Vancouver and is the only link north of the Malahat
for the B.C. Ferries System.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18181
The Nanaimo Airport is now in an expansion to lengthen the runway to the
point that we will be able to accommodate 737 aircraft. We are the transportation hub of the
Island north of the Malahat. That
is one of the backbones of our economy.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18182
Many of the people who come on the ferries, during the summer, especially
the tourist traffic, are headed to all parts of the island, especially the
Pacific Rim National Park on the very far west side of the Island and Tofino and
Ucluelet.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18183
The Comox Valley has really been vibrant in recent years and their link
is with an airline direct flights to Calgary and Edmonton. So it is becoming a very, very important
link to the mainland and to the Island.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18184
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:
Yes. So your primary
connections are with the mainland or Vancouver, I guess Tsawwassen or Horseshoe
Bay?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18185
MR. UNGER: That's
correct.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18186
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How
much of the visitors traffic that comes to your area comes from Victoria down
the highway as opposed to coming in on these ferries?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18187
Would you say the ferries bring more people or the highway from
Victoria?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18188
MR. UNGER: When it comes to
the tourist traffic, we have been encouraging a circle route or a triangle where
you can go from Vancouver to Nanaimo to Victoria and back. Because of the Victoria ferry
connection, that makes it very easy.
Or the reverse of course, going to Victoria first and then coming up
Island and taking a different ferry and having different
views.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18189
As having been born on the Prairies myself, that is akin to an ocean
cruise which many people view that way on their first sailing between. So if you can go through all the islands
on the Victoria route and then come back on the other route through Nanaimo,
that makes for a very interesting, varied trip for anyone.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18190
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes,
I have taken it many times, many of them.
It just seems to me that the Horseshoe Bay ‑‑ well, the largest
ferries, B.C. Ferries are putting their largest ferries on the Horseshoe Bay and
Nanaimo run. There must be a
traffic reason for them doing that.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18191
MR. UNGER: There is, and the
new ferry, which will be going into service next month, the first of the three
has been put on the Nanaimo run.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18192
The second new one, which has left the shipyard already on its way to
Vancouver Island, will be serving the Nanaimo Duke Point to Tsawwassen
run.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18193
And the third one that is being built right now will be serving
Victoria‑Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18194
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So
two‑thirds of the ‑‑
LISTNUM
1 \l 18195
MR. UNGER: Two of the new
ones are coming to Nanaimo.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18196
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Two
of the new three will be servicing a route from Vancouver essentially to
Nanaimo?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18197
MR. UNGER: That's
correct.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18198
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:
That's in terms of tourism.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18199
I imagine there are people that commute between the centres. Would more people commute to Vancouver
or to Victoria?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18200
MR. HANSON: I think there
certainly are more people commuting to Victoria than to
Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18201
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All
right.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18202
MR. HANSON: Although we are
seeing ‑‑ I mean, Nanaimo has become so attractive because of its central
location that we are seeing more and more people going in every
direction.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18203
Just as an anecdotal example, for instance, in 2006 there were 90,000
float plane passengers between Nanaimo and Vancouver and in 2007 there are
160,000.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18204
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:
Yes. That is the next
question I was going to actually, following up on these transportation
links.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18205
MR. HANSON:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18206
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So do
you have the same sort of transportation link with air to Victoria with that
same traffic level?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18207
MR. HANSON: It is actually
being worked on right now. That is
one of the odd things on Vancouver Island is that there is no north‑south
airplane service; it is all east‑west.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18208
But the vehicular traffic between Victoria and points north has been
growing dramatically over the last decade.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18209
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: With
the bulk of the people coming to the Island coming from the mainland or
Vancouver, I would like to explore a little more why you feel you have a
stronger connection with Victoria than Vancouver and if you would be basically
just switching a CBC signal from Vancouver for one from Victoria and then you
say, "Well, perhaps we can get a Nanaimo Bureau."
LISTNUM
1 \l 18210
Well, could you not get a Nanaimo Bureau from CBC Vancouver? Like CBC is CBC.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18211
Could you answer questions in that area?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18212
MR. HANSON: Again, I think
the Island‑centricity of sort of the psychology of the Island culture is
something unto itself. I don't have
my B.C. history all in front of me, but in some respects Vancouver Island is
barely part of British Columbia in the minds of people that are on the Island
and that culture, it does tend to be more Island‑centric.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18213
I think part of it also is that the sheer massive size of Vancouver is
daunting to the Islanders from the standpoint of being able to get their voice
in edgewise. So a Bureau coverage
coming out of Victoria has the sense, just because of the matching in
population ‑‑ the Island population is about the same as the Greater
Victoria population ‑‑ that there is a sense of evenness there relative to
the potential for coverage and expansion of our story.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18214
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mr.
Unger...?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18215
MR. UNGER: Yes. I believe, too, that it's a two‑way
street. An Upper Island influence
can improve the programming for Victoria as well and for the Victoria
listenership give them a broader range of programming when they hear the
material from Up Island.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18216
This is another thing we are looking at, is feeding into the Victoria
market rather than just receiving and going even beyond the Victoria
market. By having a CBC connection
in Nanaimo we would be able to, in some programming, feed the national scene as
well and get right across Canada.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18217
But I think it is important to look at not what Victoria will feed to us,
but just as important what the Victoria market will get as a result of the Up
Island being able to connect into it.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18218
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So
from a City of Nanaimo perspective, then, you see a bigger opportunity of
marketing Nanaimo to Victoria rather than the much larger
Vancouver?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18219
MR. UNGER: I don't think it
makes really that much difference.
I think it is a matter of technical ability, as well, for the CBC as
opposed to ‑‑ however, I think the opportunity to get programming on a
Victoria transmission or Victoria studio would be greater because of the larger
amount of input in the Vancouver market, where they have more organizations and
local Vancouver community events.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18220
And being able to get into the programming in Vancouver would be more
difficult than to get into the Victoria programming from our
standpoint.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18221
MR. HANSON: Can I speak to
that as well?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18222
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mr.
Hanson...?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18223
MR. HANSON: Yes. I think there are two things here,
too.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18224
From the standpoint of our destination marketing for ongoing regular
business in Nanaimo, Victoria is a much stronger market for us than Vancouver
is, just again because we are on the Island and the convenience and people in
Victoria think about coming Up Island in a way that people in the Lower Mainland
don't think about because of the water barrier.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18225
I think the other thing to say is that I don't have any statistics in
front of me, but it would be ‑‑ I think it is a jump in assumption to
assume that the millions of people trafficking through Nanaimo on B.C. Ferries
are coming from Vancouver, because huge numbers of those, they are not people
from Vancouver; they are people that are coming to the Island via Vancouver from
other places.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18226
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, I
agree. I agree with that, but they
may have been listening to CBC in Vancouver on their way there, I guess is what
I'm saying ‑‑
LISTNUM
1 \l 18227
MR. HANSON:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18228
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: ‑‑ not waiting until they got there to see
if they could find CBC Victoria.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18229
MR. HANSON:
Sure.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18230
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:
Yes...?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18231
MS TANG: Yes, I would like
to contribute something from the arts as well.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18232
The kind of work that is produced, a lot of it being original in Nanaimo,
is also of great interest to Victoria.
Our Children's Festival also performs in Victoria because there is no
other Children's Festival on the Island.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18233
Our symphony, the work our symphony is doing; our theatre, as I said,
with the Dunsmuirs. The Dunsmuir
family built Craigdarroch Castle and Hatley Park.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18234
The connections, they are more relevant in Victoria, hence they cover our
work. And so we will get better
coverage and be able to feed our stories more frequently than if it was the
Vancouver market.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18235
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18236
Our Chair, Chair del Val, was talking to you about if CBC was granted
this application in its entirety and they removed the AM channel, that many
listeners on Vancouver Island and in the marine community would suffer. So a large percentage of our
interventions dealt with that issue, mainly because the 690 AM band, as she was
explaining through the topography, can reach the northern tip of Vancouver
Island with little difficulty, whereas an FM is kind of confined to a very
smaller area.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18237
So part of the price, I guess, if that was awarded and you got what you
wanted, is many of your neighbours north of you would no longer have that
service.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18238
MR. UNGER: Again, that is a
technical question. However, my
understanding is that there would be repeaters in the various communities to
bring that signal to other communities as well, all the way up the Island right
to the northern tip and even going as far as Powell River, which is on the
mainland, but more connected to the Island than anywhere
else.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18239
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All
right.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18240
I appreciate your answers. I
have attended Bard on the Beach. It
is a wonderful event and I will see if I can find, what is it, Gung
Ho ‑‑
LISTNUM
1 \l 18241
MR. WONG: Gung Haggis Fat
Choy.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18242
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes,
I will see if I can attend that next year.
Thank you very much.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18243
MR. WONG: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18244
THE CHAIRPERSON: Before I
forget, I just wanted to make a comment and then I have another question for Mr.
Unger.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18245
I actually remember in the 70s, late 70s or early 80s, bringing the first
Dragonboat Festival to Vancouver because I was on the Chinese Cultural Centre
Board then. I also remember the
first time I saw in the papers on Gung Haggis Fat Choy, on how clever I thought
that was. So,
yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18246
Mr. Unger, just coming back to the point of Gabriola Island, we don't
expect interveners to read what we have to read. Now, Gabriola Island did intervene
against CBC and one of the reasons is that basically they also want the 104.1
frequency. They basically want to
reserve it in the event that their community station gets
going.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18247
So that brings me back to the point where you were saying that we are
really hoping ‑‑ and I think CBC is hoping and we are all hoping ‑‑
that there would be sufficient funds to establish a Bureau for CBC in
Victoria. But the reality is that
we don't know. We don't know when
or whether that could happen.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18248
So if you are building for 30 or 40 years out ‑‑ I agree we should
always think to the future ‑‑ how fair is it too sort of reserve the use of
a scarce resource for something that may or may not happen down the road versus
dedicating the use of that resource to where we know there is an immediate
need?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18249
MR. HANSON: I am a little
bit confused, because you said Mr. Unger but you have been looking at me and I
am Mr. Hanson.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18250
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Hanson,
yes, I'm sorry. I'm very sorry,
yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18251
MR. HANSON: All
right.
‑‑‑
Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM
1 \l 18252
MR. HANSON: A difficult
question, obviously. I think we
have to think in broad terms. While
I am certainly supportive of community radio, community radio, put in the
context of an improved, broadened CBC opportunity in the mid‑Island region, it
is an apples and oranges question.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18253
I personally couldn't support another local community radio station over
the opportunity to get our story out nationally, internationally and
regionally.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18254
So that is my simple answer.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18255
But if it was a question between another local
station ‑‑
LISTNUM
1 \l 18256
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18257
MR. HANSON: ‑‑ and more content from
Vancouver...
LISTNUM
1 \l 18258
THE CHAIRPERSON: You see,
that is exactly the difficulty. You
have Gabriola Island, then you have Nanaimo, then you have
Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18259
MR. HANSON:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18260
THE CHAIRPERSON: You know,
it is almost like a stepped analogy of the problem.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18261
MR. HANSON:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18262
THE CHAIRPERSON: Do my
colleagues have any other questions?
No.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18263
We really appreciate your time in intervening, as I hope that you can
tell that we take all the interventions very seriously as you have taken the
time and we are grateful.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18264
Thank you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18265
THE SECRETARY: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18266
I would now ask MuddCats, Stonegrill and Pacific Audio Visual Institute
to come to the presentation table.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM
1 \l 18267
THE SECRETARY: We will just
take a short five‑minute break.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 0951 / Suspension à
0951
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1010 / Reprise à
1010
LISTNUM
1 \l 18268
THE SECRETARY: Please take a
seat.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18269
We will start with the presentation of MuddCats.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18270
Please introduce yourself and you have 10 minutes.
INTERVENTION
LISTNUM
1 \l 18271
MR. PIGGIN: Hello, my name
is Dave Piggin. I play with a band
called the MuddCats and I am from Kamloops, British
Columbia.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18272
I respect the privilege of coming to speak to you today and I'm very
excited. I would like to thank
Frank Torres and Ed Torres and the people in their team for giving me this
opportunity to speak to you. I have
the greatest respect for what is happening here today.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18273
I have three items that I have handed to Jade.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18274
One is the CD from our ‑‑ this is original blues CD. I have a yellow booklet, pamphlet from
The Yale, which is a local blues club, seven days a week blues in
Vancouver. I also have a general
gist of what I am going to say written out on this document here for
reference.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18275
I am going to read right straight from it. This is separate and different from what
I wrote in my letter of intervention which for public purposes was sent to
you. Okay? I'm not trying to
repeat.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18276
Emerging Canadian blues artists do not get radio play on commercial radio
in Canada. We do get some play on
College/University Radio Stations where they are prepared to take risks and be
innovative.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18277
The purpose of my being here today is to witness to you my experience as
an emerging blues artist on behalf of myself and Brad Davis and the applicant.
Brad Davis is my co‑author and he
lives in Kamloops with me. He is
originally from South Carolina.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18278
In doing this, I'm speaking for many blues artists who are not here today
and, by the way, sent me e‑mails of encouragement and excitement, hoping that I
will be successful in talking to you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18279
My experience is directly related to the interior of British Columbia
and, to some extent, the Vancouver scene.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18280
The natural progression for somebody like myself would be to come from
Kamloops and tried to get my stuff played in places like The Yale or the
Fairview or the Cottage Bistro Club here in
Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18281
In terms of our CD, in 2005 Brad and I opened for Sue Foley in Kamloops
at a Blues Network event. Sue Foley
is a Canadian guitar player and she is a real wizard. She plays way better than I do. Due to the success of this event, Brad
and I decided to do an original blues CD.
We worked on the CD writing for about eight months and released the
CD.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18282
I actually got the dates wrong on there. It should not be
2008.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18283
Our CD was well received in Kamloops and in Kamloops where there is about
80,000 people, I have sold personally 1,000 CDs.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18284
In terms of radio play, the X92.5 radio station, a University radio
station ‑‑ which, by the way, just increase their power a few days
ago ‑‑ managed by Brant Zwicker, was an excellent supporter and did a
one‑hour show with live interviews to promote our CD. They also include us on their playlist
and we get played at that radio station.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18285
He has connections where he has helped us get played on other university
stations occasionally.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18286
After hearing our CD, Peter Olsen and Tim Tyler, who, by the way, are DJs
in Kamloops, are big blues fans and on Radio NL in Kamloops started a new
program called "Home Grown" as a result of hearing our CD and solicited CDs from
local artists which were featured in a one‑hour program.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18287
Peter told us that our CD was the best CD to date to come out of
Kamloops, and we are going to support our CD. We also received strong support from
CIFM 98.3 in Kamloops from Stan Bailey and Henry Small.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18288
Henry small, you might recall, is from Prism.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18289
They interviewed us and played our CD in the morning shows and at 5
o'clock in prime time for us.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18290
Brant Zwicker also has shown support for us. He has a syndicated blues show that goes
throughout Canada. That blues show
is syndicated from Kamloops and recorded in Kamloops, and it is called "At The
Crossroad". Because of it, we are
able to be played on Brant Zwicker's show, and our CD has been played on 70
stations in Canada ‑‑ more than 70 actually.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18291
Radio play outside of Kamloops other than on the syndication show is
non‑existent.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18292
An interesting thing is we got an e‑mail one time from a radio station in
Croatia and we were number two in 2005, I think in July, in Croatia and we can't
get played in Canada.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18293
A person in my office where I work, he is a forester from Croatia and he
said in Croatia that station would be probably broadcasting between 500 and
1,000 kilometres radius: totally
different than what we would experience here.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18294
The following is a brief list of comments and points for your information
and review.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18295
Our CD is a professional quality CD. It is complete with a 16‑page booklet,
recipes. In fact, one of the
recipes is "Catfish Bites", which is one of Brad's grandfather's recipes from
South Carolina, so it is handed down from generations.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18296
It was recorded to a high standard, including a 16‑page booklet, lyrics,
recipes and a meaningful prose. I
have given you copies here so you can review it, not because I am paying you
off, but at my expense. This is my
evidence so that you can listen to it and see if you think it is radio
worthy.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18297
I would like to point out that the producer of our CD also produced a CD
from Kamloops for a Christian CD and won a Juno for it. So the quality is here in Kamloops and
in Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18298
Our blues CD is not played on commercial radio in Vancouver or any other
location on the Lower Mainland. We
could not get past the Secretary to the Music Director. Usually we are told: "We do not play blues, we do not play
local CDs and we are not interested in hearing or playing original music, let
alone original blues."
LISTNUM
1 \l 18299
In one case talking to a DJ, they would give him an opportunity to seek
alternate employment if he played our stuff.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18300
Our CD is played in blues clubs.
A friend of mine from Kelowna, a drummer, was at The Yale in Vancouver on
Granville and Drake a few weeks ago and when he walked in the door, our CD was
playing on the house stereo. The
same friend was in Moe's Blues in Vernon, another blues place in the interior, a
week later he walked in the door and our CD was again playing on the house
stereo.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18301
Most commercial radio have a set format and do not vary from that
format. They are not prepared to
take risks with our new blues music.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18302
Salmon Arm Radio would not play our CD because it was programmed along
with many other stations in the Okanagan and the Kootenay region. I think they said 20 stations or
something, but plus 10 anyway. The
DJ thought the CD was very good, wanted to know where we were playing and when
we were playing in Salmon Arm because he was going to come and see us. We played there and he came down to see
our thing, but he still couldn't play our CD and he liked their
music.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18303
In Vernon Station they would not take original artists, especially since
we were from the Thompson region and they were the Okanagan, and they won't play
things except from the Okanagan.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18304
Kelowna Radio Station had a set format and would not vary from that
format. They would not play our CD,
even though we were playing at the local Blue Gater Club, which is a very
well‑known blues establishment in Kelowna.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18305
To give you a sense of an aside thing that came up to my mind having
breakfast this morning, there is a lack of diversity in the music that is being
played on commercial radio. My
friend has a 14‑year‑old daughter and the minute she gets in my truck, she turns
the radio on, hits the channels until she finds something she likes. If she doesn't, the next thing she does
is put her iPod on.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18306
I think we have no diversity in the radio and it is being preprogrammed
for one location for a big chunk of the province, and it is not including
blues.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18307
If CDs are not played on the radio, the record stores will not carry my
CD. Very fortunately, there is a
great organization called Play Entertainment, a small chain, and they will carry
our CD. I can't get it into HMV and
I can't get it into A&B Sound and I can't get it into anything
else.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18308
So commercial radio stations have the reputation for not taking
risks. They play it safe and they
protect income and listeners. In
fact, the listener base may be weakening because they are not prepared to step
out of their format, as I commented about my 14‑year‑old
friend.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18309
Without radio play, income for me from SOCAN is minimal and the income
accrues to other international artists and talent and not to people in
Canada. We are now focusing our
attention on download formats such as iTunes, Napster and Rhapsody where we have
a worldwide download capability and have an opportunity to make up for the lack
of radio play in Canada.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18310
Right now we are getting downloaded in the U.K. and in the United
States. Since we did it like last
fall and there is a couple, three‑month delay before you find out, I don't know
where else we are being downloaded at the moment. But we can get printouts if you wanted
to know for your purposes at some other date.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18311
That's why in the stuff I gave Jade I also gave business
cards.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18312
If our music is not played, we will not receive royalties. If our music is not played, it will not
be picked up under a mechanical licence by another artist which creates revenue
for me.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18313
If our music is not heard, it will not be tracked to a movie or other
media. Again, income is
lost.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18314
A perfect example is I was talking to a guy down at a SOCAN event and he
did a song that was recorded and played to the Highlander episode ‑‑
Highlander at that time I believe was produced here ‑‑ and he gets paid for
the fact that they are using his song.
He gets paid again when it is tracked to the movie. He gets paid again when it is
played.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18315
Six years later after that one was syndicated worldwide, he is still
getting revenue.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18316
We do not rely on grants or subsidies. We did our CD with our own lunch
money.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18317
THE SECRETARY: I'm sorry,
can you please conclude. Your 10
minutes is over.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18318
MR. PIGGIN:
Okay.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18319
In conclusion, original Canadian blues is a vibrant part of the Vancouver
culture and is not represented in the commercial radio. Canadian blues artists do not have a
significant voice in terms of radio play.
This creates a systemic barrier to Canadian artists and prevents the
growth of a viable economic opportunity for original Canadian
blues.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18320
I recommend the Frank Torres application be accepted so that emerging
blues artists can have a place to showcase their creative talents, and I
recommend that the Frank Torres application be accepted so that new economic
opportunities can be made available to emerging Canadian blues
artist.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18321
Thank you very much.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18322
THE SECRETARY: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18323
Now we will hear the presentation of Pacific Audio Visual
Institute.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18324
Please introduce yourself and you have 10 minutes.
INTERVENTION
LISTNUM
1 \l 18325
MR. LAVIN: My name is Tom
Lavin and I am the Director of Pacific Audio Visual Institute which is a private
post‑secondary college licensed and accredited under PCTIA of the province
here.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18326
I have also been involved in communication, having started the first
private Internet provider service in Western Canada. I took that company public and
subsequently went on to CEO of several other public
companies.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18327
My position here is to support the Torres Brothers' application for a
blues radio station by virtue of the fact that I am also the leader of the
Powder Blues Band, which is a Canadian band for the last 30 years that has won
the Juno Award in Canada and has won the W.C. Handy Award in the United States,
has headlined the Montreux Jazz Festival in Switzerland, and so on and so
forth.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18328
I am one of a handful of blues artists from Canada that sold in excess of
a million records.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18329
Anecdotally, statistics will often not prove the viability of blues. I will give you a brief
example.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18330
When I first recorded the first Powder Blues album in 1979 and I took it
to all the record companies that were headquartered in Toronto at the time, I
was told by them all blues didn't sell.
And one record company, CBS at the time, actually undertook a marketing
study. They spent a lot of money
and some time and they came back with the results that my record might sell
5,000 copies if they were willing to invest about half a
million.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18331
So I sold a record out of the back of my station wagon and once it had
achieved Gold status of 50,000 copies in Vancouver alone, all the Canadian
record companies came back to me and said, "You probably need some help
distributing."
LISTNUM
1 \l 18332
That album has gone on to sell more than a million copies and I have been
through several record companies, watched their demise, and the band continues
on.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18333
What they call a weekend warrior, I also have a one‑month‑old new son, so
I don't tour nearly as much as I used to.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18334
The way I see it is you have the responsibility of figuring out who you
want to give airwaves to and blues may be to your mind somewhat of a marginal
music. I am here to explain that
maybe that is not the case.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18335
I have toured continually across Canada for 30 years and there are
probably 40 to 50 major blues festivals in Canada. By "major", I mean the Windsor Blues
Festival can sometimes draw upwards of 100,000 people; the Blues Festival in
Ottawa over a period of days similarly.
And we have a number of them here in the Lower Mainland and in the
outreaches.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18336
It is viable and there is a lot of ‑‑ there are literally hundreds,
if not thousands, of Canadian blues artists.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18337
So we have to look at: Is
there a market? Will people listen
to this? Is it worth giving 1000
watts 89.3 to a format that is blues?
Is there viability here?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18338
It is interesting to note that the only live music venue in the Lower
Mainland that operates seven nights a week is a blues venue. Now, any of us here in this room can
mention dozens of subgroups of music and certainly we will have reggae artists
from time to time or country artists or classical artists, but this is few and
far between.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18339
My point is that there is a very roots oriented support for the blues and
it is being severely under‑represented locally.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18340
In fact, most blues artists like myself or Colin James or Jeff Healey
have to achieve recognition outside of Canada in order to be recognized
here.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18341
So absolutely in order to meet Canadian content, we have more than enough
fine, world‑class blues artists that aren't receiving
airplay.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18342
Is there a market viability?
You know what, that is going to come down to programming, music
programming and it is going to come down to smart station management, and I am
not here with the facts as to whether the people who have this application have
that sort of expertise. But if it
is managed properly and it is programmed properly, absolutely, there is no
question of its viability.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18343
Is there a cultural imperative for it? I think there is. I think that the blues is the basis for
all of Western music; that it is really necessary if we are going to continue to
generate quality artists ‑‑ and Canada does that in a wonderfully
disproportionate measure to most other of the forward thinking nations. Our young artists have to be exposed to
the roots.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18344
It is impossible to study calculus without studying geometry. And all of jazz and all of fusion and
all of Western pop music is based on blues, and it is an entry point. People's ears develop over time. It is an evolutionary
process.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18345
To have a blues station here is wonderful. Personally, I have to try to get an
ultra receiver and received 88.1 NPR, National Public Radio from Seattle, Tacoma
which plays blues and jazz because we don't have anything that represents it
here.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18346
Occasionally there has been a licence who has been granted to a "jazz
station" but it is usually elevator music and it fails quickly and they change
format.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18347
I think that if you grant this application for primarily a blues ‑‑
and I use that in the widest sense of the word, blues incorporating and
including swing and jazz and bebop and all the other so important intellectual
products of Western music ‑‑ that it will absolutely be
successful.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18348
I think that concludes my statements and I am happy to answer any
questions.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18349
THE SECRETARY: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18350
THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Duncan,
please.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18351
COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: I don't really have many
questions.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18352
I think your presentations were very clear and passionate. I used that word earlier today, many
times actually, listening to the interveners, but I actually was personally very
taken with the clip that the Torres people played in their presentation. I thought, oh, this must be what I have
been missing all my life and, interestingly enough, they did make a comment
that ‑‑
LISTNUM
1 \l 18353
MR. LAVIN: Well, thank you
so much for that comment. It is
great to hear it. I hear it at
every show.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18354
COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Do
you?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18355
MR. LAVIN: "I didn't think I
liked the blues until I heard you".
It is a wonderful thing.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18356
Thank you, all. Thanks for
letting me speak.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18357
COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:
Yes. Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18358
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Commissioner Cugini, please.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18359
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Mr.
Piggin, just one question because you did make a point in your oral presentation
to say that you didn't receive any grants for the CD.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18360
MR. PIGGIN:
No.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18361
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Why do
you not apply to FACTOR for financial
assistance?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18362
MR. PIGGIN: I actually
hadn't heard of FACTOR until the other day and then I talked to my partner,
Brad, and apparently we don't get enough play that we would probably get a
grant. And then his verbal comment
to me ‑‑ and I do not understand it totally ‑‑ is that he said "We
might be able to get a thousand bucks if we cross Canada."
LISTNUM
1 \l 18363
The thousand bucks doesn't cover gas to Edmonton, you know,
basically. So for us, basically
what it is is you can't tour. You
have to have a full‑time job, take your annual leave and go, and that is
probably what we are going to do.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18364
The interesting thing is ‑‑ and this is like colossal, I can't even
believe it ‑‑ he has made some friends, blues friends on the Internet, and
there are people in Germany who want to pay us to go to Germany to do a tour
when we can't really do a tour here in Canada because we can't get radio
play.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18365
It is very important, if I play in a town like Kelowna or something like
that, to get a little radio play in advance of going. That is a very powerful advertising
thing. It can't happen. It won't happen. But I can get played in
Europe.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18366
Pardon me for over‑speaking the artist, but there is an artist in
Kamloops named Roxanne Hall. She
gets a significant amount of royalties out of Europe, but she cannot get her
music played in Canada.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18367
COMMISSIONER CUGINI:
Obviously the contention there is because of the format restrictions that
the radio operators have imposed upon themselves ‑‑
LISTNUM
1 \l 18368
MR. PIGGIN: That's
right.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18369
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: ‑‑ because we don't license
formats.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18370
MR. PIGGIN: Yes. I do not know that anybody has done a
view of the opportunity cost of the royalty loss that I would pay because they
are playing "Crimson and Clover" for the 15th time that
day.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18371
Both myself and Tom ‑‑ and it's not because I want to be rich; I
want to express myself. This CD has
my feelings on it and it has Brad's feelings on it, and I think there are very
powerful things.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18372
If I meet a blues believer that listens to blues, I do not have to sell
my CD to them. They say "original
blues, buying it". I have only had
one CD returned out of 2,000 in recent time and that was because his wife
wouldn't let him buy it.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18373
I'm not being insulting; I'm just telling you that's the
facts.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18374
I would like to point out something ‑‑ I
apologize ‑‑
LISTNUM
1 \l 18375
COMMISSIONER CUGINI:
No. Please, go right
ahead.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18376
MR. PIGGIN: In this town
there are people that are playing here in Vancouver that are legends in the
blues and people do not know that.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18377
Tom Lavin is a legend. I was
privileged enough to be able to open for him in Kamloops.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18378
Jim Byrnes, who you saw earlier is a legend.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18379
Amos Garrett. Amos Garrett
has a neat little story. He did the
guitar lines for a song called "Oasis at Midnight" for Maria Muldaur. He gets this phone call in a hotel room
somewhere in the States and here it is Stevie Wonder phoning him and telling him
it's the best guitar lead he has ever heard in his whole life, and he had to
hunt all over the States to find him to tell him that.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18380
These are the people that are playing here.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18381
Long John Baldry. Long John
Baldry is from Vancouver here. He
played a lot with Tony Robertson and his group of people. Long John Baldry, he stands on stage and
he says, "You know, the first time I played this song I was with Eric"; Eric
Clapton, because he is from England.
These are the beginners.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18382
People like Lexus Corners Blues Band which started out in England, the
people that got up on stage and asked to be able to play with him are Keith
Richards and Mick Jagger. That's
how they started, playing blues.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18383
The first two blues CD albums of the Rolling Stones ‑‑ pardon me,
the first two LPs are blues.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18384
Harry Manx, a Canadian artist, he is a deadly player. Jerry Adolf is a first call session man
here in this area. Ellie Johnson is
a major guitar player that is just building. Brickhouse plays 200 nights probably a
year here and is mainly in Vancouver.
They are known throughout the Interior.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18385
Tim Porter and Tim Hershey are deadly guitar players. They are well
known.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18386
That culture is not out there; it is not seen, and the systemic barrier
of the commercial radio stations is the reason. It is not because they are lazy, because
they are producing all the time good, new music.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18387
Thank you very much for listening to my tirade.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18388
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: No,
thank you very much for the information.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18389
Thank you, those are all my questions.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18390
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Commissioner Williams, please.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18391
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I
certainly appreciate your enthusiasm and your generosity, and I just can't wait
until the day is over so we can see what the CD is all
about.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18392
MR. PIGGIN: Thank you very
much.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18393
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank
you very much.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18394
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Commissioner Menzies, please.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18395
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: My
question is sort of in this context and I am still mourning the loss of the King
Eddy in Calgary, so I am familiar with the ‑‑
LISTNUM
1 \l 18396
MR. PIGGIN: You didn't have
to stay there.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM
1 \l 18397
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: I am
only there one week out of three these days
anyway.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18398
What you have described is a sort of institutional barrier, but also more
broadly perhaps a branding or marketing issue for the blues in terms of people
saying, "Oh, that is what I have been listening to, I didn't know that was the
blues."
LISTNUM
1 \l 18399
They have another image of the blues that is a barrier to having more
widespread acceptance.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18400
Given that in terms of this particular application, what gives you
confidence to come forward as intervenors that this applicant will be able to
market what the blues really are and maintain that successfully so that they
won't feel the need three or four years down the road to change formats and draw
themselves into the mix?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18401
MR. LAVIN: I would like to answer that question, if I
might.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18402
I think that the blues remarkably has the most staying power of any type
of western music. It is a
touchstone that constantly has to be revisited.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18403
You know, a generation before me they thought Jimi Hendrix was roots and
didn't realize that Jimi Hendrix, his roots were Willie Dixon and Muddy Waters
and people like that.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18404
It is the trunk of the tree of western
music.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18405
In the same context that you wouldn't expect great painting students at
Emily Carr to be able to become culturally advanced, having only been reared on
black velvet paintings, they have to go and see the Masters and they have to
understand what makes something classic and what makes something
timeless.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18406
Timeless is a creation that withstands the test of time by its very
definition. Certainly, you look at
the biggest selling jazz album of all time is called "Kind of Blue" by Miles
Davis. Now, we all regard Miles
Davis as a jazz artist, but any student of music will tell you that that is all
blues.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18407
Incidentally, the title of his subsequent album was called "All
Blues". He also did a "No Blues"
album. But all jazz starts
there.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18408
And what I mean by a format for blues radio would incorporate that sort
of thing.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18409
Now, like I said when I made my brief comments, it is up to management
and program directing and music directing to make sure that the quality is
there, but blues speaks for itself.
It has its own ‑‑ what did John Labatt say? "An honest brew makes its own
friends".
LISTNUM
1 \l 18410
I think that certainly the blues at its best is sheer honesty. It is the bottom line in human
emotion. It is universal. It speaks to everyone. And if it is represented in a quality
way, it can't fail. Certainly it
hasn't in my experience.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18411
MR. PIGGIN: If I could add
to that just briefly, because I think he has nailed it, is in their application
they said they want to have 30 per cent blues as in their licence document. Okay?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18412
That takes a fairly significant challenge, and I'm sure that on many
commercial things they would not want to be pinned to that in their licence
document.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18413
I think they are going to be a little bit surprised, the owners, Frank
Torres and his team, they are going to be surprised at the support they are
going to get locally. I think it is
going to blow them away and I believe in other markets there will be a copycat
application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18414
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: All
right. Thank you very much. Good luck with your
career.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18415
MR. PIGGIN: Thank you very
much. I appreciate your time and
patience.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18416
THE CHAIRPERSON: I have
questions.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18417
MR. PIGGIN:
Yes...?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18418
THE CHAIRPERSON: I have one
question for you ‑‑ I will start with a question for you, Mr.
Piggin.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18419
Can you tell me how it happened that you were played in Croatia and
became number two?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18420
MR. PIGGIN: I don't actually
know. We actually don't. The only thing we can think of is that
an Armed Forces person took it over when they were doing
it.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18421
The other thing that catches you off guard ‑‑ and blues is maybe a
little bit like jazz ‑‑ somebody gets a CD and they have to tell their
friends. They get a CD and they
have to tell their friends, and you get a network of blues
people.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18422
I met a new blues guy who is a deadly guitar player, plays in his living
room; doesn't do any recording. He
is an engineer and he builds sawmills all over the world. He moved to Kamloops and I met him
through another person and then you create a new network.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18423
That is why in Kamloops we started a blues underground network, and at
one point it had a thousand people.
In a town of 80,000, it has its own little thing.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18424
The Salmon Arm Roots and Blues Festival gets 10,000
people.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18425
MR. LAVIN: There is actually
a ring of blues DJs all over Europe.
It was initially western Europe and now incorporates eastern Europe,
too. There are about 60 of
them. I get their weekly playlists
and it is quite surprising, there is hardly a week that goes by without a
Canadian blues artist on it. I am
on it regularly and people like David Gogo and Sue Foley and Long John Baldry,
and so on and so forth.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18426
Basically it is a moccasin telegraph sort of thing. People that are really into the blues
know the other people, and it is the only way that you can disseminate the
material, because again it is generally ‑‑ it has been
fringe.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18427
THE CHAIRPERSON: The
playlist that you were talking about, that is kind of bittersweet, isn't
it? It is good that they made it so
big elsewhere, but it is sad that we don't hear them.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18428
MR. LAVIN: Powder Blues has
been released in a number of foreign countries, but we get play on an average
each year of maybe 40 or 50 countries.
I can see that on my SOCAN statements.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18429
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Lavin,
I think everyone knows your song "Doing It Right on the Wrong Side of
Town".
LISTNUM
1 \l 18430
MR. LAVIN: I wrote that
song.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
LISTNUM
1 \l 18431
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and we
hear that on radio. Now, I asked
the same question of Mr. Byrnes when he was here yesterday: Do you still approach radio stations to
have them play your other songs and if you ‑‑
LISTNUM
1 \l 18432
MR. LAVIN: I don't even
approach record companies. I sell
directly off the Internet.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18433
THE CHAIRPERSON: All
right.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18434
MR. LAVIN: Manufacturing
costs on a CD is $2.00 and retail price is $20. It is an $18 net to me if I sell
directly and a $1.00 net to me if I sell through a record
company.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18435
You have seen the demise of record companies through convergence of media
technology and different forms of delivery. We are going through a rebirth and the
whole concept of copyright in copying, and that is another
discussion.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18436
I am of the smaller school that believes in free dissemination. I put all my musical works on the
Internet for free download. I also
have it for pay download and I also feel that people that experience my music
for free, that like it well enough, will actually come to me and buy it of their
own volition, basically a volunteer army, if you will.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18437
THE CHAIRPERSON: All
right. But are you interested in
having more of your music on commercial radio?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18438
MR. LAVIN: I think, you
know, if people want to hear the music it is great to have an outlet. I did actually hire some independent
promotion for an album I did recently ‑‑ by recently, I mean about three
years ago. I actually wrote,
arranged, produced, and self‑financed a big band record which was big band meets
blues. It was a high quality
production and I thought that there might be some commercial viability to it,
even with the narrow format.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18439
I didn't find that to be true in Canada. I found it to be true
elsewhere.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18440
I think that the formats now are so tight and frequencies so limited and
our population so spread out and our geographic demographics so wide that it is
difficult. I think putting 1000
watts to something like this is a wonderful first step.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18441
I also agree with Mr. Piggin.
I think that it could be commercially viable, successful here and it
might well be copied in other areas.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18442
THE CHAIRPERSON: Great. Thank you very much. Thanks for taking the time to
participate. We really do
appreciate your input.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18443
MR. LAVIN: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18444
MR. PIGGIN: Thank you very
much.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18445
THE SECRETARY: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18446
I would now call James Spears to come to the presentation
table.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18447
Mr. Arthur Hughes.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM
1 \l 18448
THE SECRETARY: You have 10
minutes to make your presentation.
Thank you.
INTERVENTION
LISTNUM
1 \l 18449
MR. HUGHES: Good morning,
ladies and gentlemen, messieurs et mesdames.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18450
My name is Arthur Hughes, as you have announced, and I am a private
citizen living in the city of Vancouver.
I have absolutely no connection whatsoever with any industrial or
commercial broadcasting enterprise or anybody in the entertainment
business. I am here strictly speaking on behalf of
myself.
LISTNUM 1 \l 18451
Et pour ceux parmi les * commissioners + qui parlent français et les autres
dans la salle, je voudrais... Ça
aura été un bon accueil à la ville de Vancouver, où elle est toujours
ensoleillée, à l'exception d'aujourd'hui, sans doute, évidemment. Ah!
Venons aux faits...
LISTNUM
1 \l 18452
To the point, some weeks ago I heard on my favourite radio station, 690
CBU in Vancouver, the fact that an application had been made to transfer to FM
and drop the AM. I was astounded at
this.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18453
I have been listening to CBU Vancouver for over 50 years on AM. Just to give you an idea how I listen, I
listen in my car ‑‑ and by the way, over those years four different cars,
four different antennas and automotive radios ‑‑ receiving CBU clear as a
bell in any part of the city. The
only time you can't get it is in an underground garage perhaps or going through
what is known here as the Dees Island Tunnel. Obviously you can't receive
it.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18454
Now, when I heard this, I phoned a number of my friends. Most of my friends listen to CBC; we are
on the same wavelength, so to speak.
I got through seven of the ten people, I kept track of it, listen to CBU
daily. Not one of those listeners
had had any problems receiving the CBC.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18455
It astounded me, on reading the CBC application, to see their
statistics.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18456
If I may refer to my notes which I have provided the CRTC, if I can find
it, section 5 of their application entitled "Listener Feedback", they listed 13
negative comments regarding CBC AM reception out of a survey of 401 listeners
taken at random in June of 2004.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18457
Now, my question is: Where
were the positive comments? It is
obvious that such comments would not further their
application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18458
Now, out of the blue a gentleman called Ben Clifford, who has the same
view as myself who has provided you with a form, he examined the statistics
provided by the CBC and he has found misrepresentations in so many of them, and
he meticulously has recorded them, supplying charts which I believe you
have.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18459
I found it most interesting.
I did not have the time or the facilities to make such analysis of the
CBC numbers.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18460
But just back to the people I talked to who listen to CBC, none of them,
other than my good friend and colleague Christopher Gaze of Bard on the Beach,
who, by the way, you may not know is Canada's leading Shakespearean actor, I
have to differ with him.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18461
Let me say this. On trips to
the United States I am always listening to CBU 690 FM ‑‑ 690 AM. What am I saying ‑‑ all the way
almost to Bellingham, which is what, 35 kilometres south of Vancouver, and on
the return journey as soon as I drive north of Bellingham I tune into 690 AM,
clear as a bell ‑‑ well, not initially because it is quite a distance. But after a few kilometres, clear as a
bell you can obtain CBC all the way to
Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18462
Now, one of the things, the negative things about FM is that most radios
now have push button tuning. You
can't tune with the dial; you have to accept the number. So frequently it wanders off that
megahertz number. There is nothing
you can do about that. It is a push
button system; you can't adjust it.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18463
An amusing part of the CBC application is this: One of the reasons they want to transfer
to FM is they say that young people listen to FM. Of course they do. What are they listening to? They are listening to their favourite
rock stations and, by the way, there is a commitment almost because of peer
pressure to listen to these stations.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18464
If the CBC transfers from AM to FM, they are not going to get one more
youthful listener. It is not their
type of programming.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18465
In fact, as you know, the late‑night convenience stores usually play
music to keep the youngsters from congregating. If they turned on CBC 690 AM, the kids
would disappear in swarms.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM
1 \l 18466
MR. HUGHES: So they are not
going to gain anything by transferring to FM.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18467
Here is the capper in my argument.
You may not believe this.
The best way to illustrate it, if I were in a court of law defending a
client, I would bring in to radios, one here, one here. This would be tuned to CBC AM 690
kilohertz. This one, however, would
be tuned to FM to 93.5 megahertz.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18468
What do you get on 93.5 megahertz?
You get CBC Radio One 24 hours a day.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18469
Why are they applying? They
are already on FM. You can hear it
any time of the day or night.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18470
In fact, if you find it difficult to find, 93 megahertz is NPR KPLU. That is an all jazz station from Tacoma,
Washington. Just slightly to the
right on the dial in CBC Radio One on FM all day long. Nobody seems to realize
that.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18471
People might say, well, yes, but that's cable. Okay. Well, it takes merely $7.00 or $8.00 to
buy a splitter, $7.00 or $8.00 to buy a short piece of coaxial cable. Any teenager can attach that, it is
child's play, and anyone can listen to FM on the cable.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18472
So I am puzzled as to why they are making an application when they are
already there.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18473
I would like to read my last paragraph
verbatim.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18474
I respectfully urge the CRTC not to permit the CBC to abandon their
hundreds or more likely thousands of loyal Radio One listeners by cancelling the
long‑running, since 1938, excellent AM broadcasting. A rational compromise would be to
maintain the status quo and also carry Radio One programming on FM as it already
exists.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18475
Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18476
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Hughes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18477
Commissioner Williams will lead the questions.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18478
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Did I
understand you to say that the CBC on 690 has been serving Vancouver for 70
years?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18479
MR. HUGHES: Yes, since 1938
apparently.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18480
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So if
there are these signal reception gaps, they have been here for almost that same
period of time?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18481
MR. HUGHES: I have never had
any trouble ‑‑ now, I haven't been listening since 1938, but I have been
listening since the war. Well,
maybe I was, but I'm not aware of it.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM
1 \l 18482
MR. HUGHES: But I have never
had any trouble tuning in 690 AM nor ‑‑ and I know this is hearsay. But at least a dozen of my friends have
never complained about receiving CBC AM on 690.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18483
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: A
couple days ago, I don't know if you were here when CBC was presenting, but they
brought a small AM receiver with them and turned it on as part of their
presentation to demonstrate that their signal could not be heard within a foot
of where you are sitting.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18484
Did you see that?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18485
MR. HUGHES: No,
unfortunately I wasn't here. It
doesn't terribly surprise me. There
is a tremendous amount of ‑‑ this is a steel‑beamed superstructure that we
are in and perhaps it is not ‑‑ but I live in a 22‑floor apartment building
which is similar to this; never had any trouble.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18486
By the way, I should mention that myself and my friends, because I
quizzed them about it, are listening on small ‑‑ often listening on small
battery‑operated radios, clock alarm type radios, you know, very low quality
radios. It comes in clear as a
bell.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18487
Now, granted on a big tuner, especially if you are listening to cable, it
comes in clear as a bell. But I
have never had any trouble receiving CBC AM.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18488
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's
interesting because after that demonstration one of our team went up to their
hotel room and turned on their clock radio like you described, and it did come
across in that particular location as the clearest signal on the AM band by
far.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18489
MR. HUGHES:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18490
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So it
may be just in different areas or maybe there was something wrong with the
radio, I'm not sure.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18491
All right. Thank you, Mr.
Hughes. That is my
question.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18492
MR. HUGHES: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18493
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18494
Mr. Hughes, this country of ours being what it is, the democracy, I am
sure your friendship with Mr. Gaze will survive the difference in
opinion.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18495
MR. HUGHES: Thank you very
much.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18496
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank
you. And thank you for taking the
time.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18497
MR. HUGHES: Thank you for
hearing me.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18498
THE SECRETARY: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18499
We will now hear the presentation of Gabriola Radio
Society.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM
1 \l 18500
THE SECRETARY: Please
introduce yourself and you have 15 minutes.
INTERVENTION
LISTNUM
1 \l 18501
MR. ZAKRESKI: Madam Chair,
Commissioners, staff, we are here to request that the Commission not award the
last channel that will service Gabriola Island with an FM service without
considering the need for a local non‑commercial service and the work we have
done so far to establish one, please.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18502
Thank you for permitting us to address the Commission with our
concerns.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18503
Je m'appel Ken Zakreski. I
am the developer for the proposed CIUF‑FM Gabriola Co‑Op Radio,
GCR.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18504
I currently am self‑employed as the proprietor for Permanent Press
Publishing. I formerly have
published PEER Magazine serving the Nanaimo market with a for‑profit print
publication; prior to that worked as President of the Campus Newspaper and its
Business Manager while attending Malaspina University College where I obtained
my undergraduate degree in business.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18505
I am the developer and was the developer at that college for CHLY Radio
Malaspina.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18506
We are determined, with the permission of the Commission, to establish a
not‑for‑profit community radio undertaking with studios and offices on Gabriola
Island owned by the community, operated by volunteers and managed by a small
dedicated staff. It is our goal to
serve our community with local programming created by residents, free from the
censorship of market forces.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18507
MR. MOHER: I am Frank
Moher. I am a playwright and a
journalist living on Gabriola Island.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18508
Today we will brief you on the support for a Gabriola Island station, the
state of our application, options the Commission has regarding Gabriola Radio as
an applicant and preferred actions the Commission might
take.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18509
As mentioned in our comments submitted to the Commission, I would like to
speak about the support shown first by the artistic community for Gabriola
Radio.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18510
According to a recent report funded by the Canada Council for the Arts,
Gabriola is currently ranked sixth nationwide in terms of concentration of
artists in the community. It is
home to the 2007 Governor General award‑winning author Iain Lawrence, B.C. book
prize recipient Katherine Gordon, Juno award‑winning singer/songwriter Gary
Fjellgaard and B.C. lifetime achievement recipient actor Anthony Holland, among
many others.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18511
Gabriola will provide more than enough material from these artists and
many other voices to fill our airwaves.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18512
These senior artists have also been working alongside the Island's
emerging artists to benefit the Gabriola Radio Society. A full‑time community radio station will
support such mentoring roles for artists on a continuing basis and provide a
forum for their work. And the
success of sales of CDs released from three recent GRS fundraising concerts, not
to mention the concerts themselves, is an indicator of the eagerness of the
community at large to work together for this common goal.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18513
I would like to move on now to the state of our
application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18514
Since 2002 Gabriola Co‑Op Radio has been working hard to fund raise,
create organizational structures and policies and determine an appropriate set
of broadcast parameters for its own FM radio station.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18515
We have also previously submitted comments regarding other broadcasting
applications that might affect the work of the GCR.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18516
It is with a great sense of accomplishment that GCR completed the CRTC
portion of the application for a community FM broadcasting licence. The residents of Gabriola Island have
told us both in words and in deeds that they will work diligently and with
passion to voice our community's unique sensibility.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18517
We have not been able to complete the required Industry Canada technical
brief due to changing circumstances related to the applications before you in
this proceeding. This is
frustrating for us because we now have all the necessary infrastructure, funds
and community support in place to proceed with our
project.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18518
I will now ask Ken to speak to the engineering aspects of the
project.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18519
MR. ZAKRESKI: We are now
working with Grant McCormick, professional engineer, to develop a brief. While we were working with another
broadcast consultant for many years, he worked slowly and was unable to complete
the research we required to attend to all the technical and geographical
considerations, select a suitable channel and submit our engineering brief
before you received the applications under consideration in this
proceeding.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18520
Despite ongoing research, we have not found a set of parameters that will
completely service our community.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18521
It is important to note two points.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18522
B.C. is not flat, which introduces extra limitations in terms of
coverage.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18523
Spectrum is scarce on the west coast. We are located just outside of
Vancouver. So we are just
outside.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18524
Currently there is a short list of challenges we have to overcome. Gabriola is close to a major market,
Vancouver. Channels available are
being applied for and being awarded as we research them. The CBC may be awarded all three
channels they seek.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18525
It is uncertain whether the CBC will go ahead with plans to construct a
tower on Gabriola. Tower sites
zoned on Gabriola are not designed to serve Gabriola as a broadcaster, but to
broadcast away from Gabriola.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18526
This goes back to the 1930s when the AM just
started.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18527
Residents have raised concerns about the proximity of a tower site and
there still is uncertainty whether the CBC will be amenable to a trivial change
in tower site location. At A‑1
power we will not be able to reach all of our community without using repeaters,
but some frequencies will allow more effective coverage than
others.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18528
If Gabriola Co‑Op Radio doesn't have an approved channel, it is uncertain
whether the community will permit the required re‑zone to allow a tower site to
be built on Gabriola.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18529
The local government on Gabriola decides rezoning even though it is a
federal responsibility. I have been
assured by Industry Canada that they do seek input from the local government
when deciding tower site zoning.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18530
I want to comment just briefly on our intervention per
se.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18531
We did not support or oppose the CBC's application. We would like to work with the CBC. Our comment was submitted as a comment
for the Commission to consider. We
did not oppose, we did not support the CBC's
application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18532
When we were prepared to develop partnerships with other broadcasters,
the CBC has come forth with a plan that would see Gabriola broadcast on its
tower for an agreeable licence fee.
We would desire a situation where the application for the CBC could go
ahead so that they are interested in building the tower and at the same time
have a channel available for Gabriola for its community
efforts.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18533
Options the Commission has regarding Gabriola Radio as an
applicant.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18534
Our engineer has been researching options for alternate channels, but
they are problematic.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18535
One, they require permission for first adjacent interference by an
existing broadcaster.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18536
Also, another channel is subject to approval during the Chilliwack
portion of this hearing. I will be
addressing the Commission again during the Chilliwack portion of this
hearing.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18537
If no other channels are technically approved by Industry Canada that
would service Gabriola, the Commission could permit the CBC to broadcast CBC via
FM on 98.7, deny all current applicants use of 104.1 and reserve it for Gabriola
as a community broadcaster, which could then apply for
104.1.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18538
Two, the Commission could deny all current applicants use of 98.7 and
reserve it for Gabriola to apply as a community
broadcaster.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18539
Three, the Commission could consider Gabriola's use of 104.1 at reduced
parameters, which may permit Vancouver use, Vancouver applicant use, as well,
but would mean applicants intending to use 104.1 at parameters that would
preclude concurrent use by Gabriola would have to be
denied.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18540
If a channel exists that would be suitable for Gabriola but is yet to be
approved for use by Industry Canada, the Commission could delay the decision
from this hearing until our Gabriola application is resubmitted and its Industry
Canada brief is technically approved.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18541
Five, we would agree to any fair process that the Commission can suggest
to ensure that the last channels in the area are not allocated without first
considering whether and how Gabriola residents can receive local community radio
service.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18542
And now Frank.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18543
MR. MOHER: In conclusion,
commercial applicants often speak of underserved markets and the Commission
often speaks of diversity. Gabriola
has no locally produced community radio service, despite significant local
support and interest in having the service and despite considerable work toward
establishing it.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18544
We also look forward to working with other communities, including those
on the islands of Galiano and Salt Spring to create a service embracing all the
Gulf Islands.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18545
Community radio is essential to ensure that listeners have access to
diverse content and editorial perspectives. We ask you to provide a structure
whereby independent community applicants receive a priority in allocation of
licences and frequencies. Please
ensure communities like Gabriola have local, non‑commercial radio
options.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18546
Having briefed you on the support for our station, the state of our
application, the options before you and the preferred actions you might take, we
thank you for your time and welcome your questions.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18547
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Zakreski.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18548
I'm sorry, I got your first name Frank, but I missed your last
name.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18549
MR. MOHER:
Moher.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18550
THE CHAIRPERSON: Moher, all
right.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18551
My main questions were your submissions in your written intervention and
today your presentation are very full and there have also been very full replies
to your interventions.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18552
So my one remaining question had been the status of your
application. It is quite clear
where it is now, which is really it's at the Industry Canada
stage.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18553
Is that correct?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18554
MR. ZAKRESKI: We have
secured the services of Grant McCormick to provide professional engineering
preparation of the brief.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18555
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18556
MR. ZAKRESKI: We are
currently looking at the problems of finding a channel to service our
community.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18557
THE CHAIRPERSON: All
right.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18558
MR. ZAKRESKI: At A‑1
parameters there is no channel available that will provide complete coverage to
our community and we are not looking at, you know, undertaking a large area
outside of our intended coverage area.
Our coverage area has been indicated clearly on our website since we
started the process. We have not
changed it. It is the community
that we wish to service.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18559
Basically, it is Gabriola and that parts of Nanaimo that are easily
reachable. Nanaimo is sort of a
dish going up a hill. Many
residents often attend to Nanaimo for their needs, and we would like to be able
to communicate to them, especially the ferry lineup.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18560
THE CHAIRPERSON: All
right.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18561
I don't have further questions because your written submissions have
dealt with all the ‑‑ you have anticipated the
questions.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18562
My colleagues don't either, so I thank you very much for coming this way
to present your intervention in person.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18563
MR. ZAKRESKI: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18564
MR. MOHER: Thank you for
your time.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18565
THE SECRETARY: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18566
I will now ask Music B.C. Industry Association.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM
1 \l 18567
THE SECRETARY: Please
introduce yourself and you have 10 minutes.
INTERVENTION
LISTNUM
1 \l 18568
MR. D'EITH: Hello
again. My name is Bob D'Eith. I am the Executive Director of Music
B.C.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18569
I very much appreciate you giving me two times to
talk.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18570
If you remember, yesterday I was focusing primarily on the Jim Pattison
CCD program, so today I am going to focus on general issues and also on the
other applicants who are supporting Music B.C.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18571
I just wanted to state that we are not endorsing one applicant over
another. We work with most of the
broadcasters in Canada and we are primarily speaking to the Canadian Content
Development Programs that are being proposed that we are involved
with.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18572
One thing I would like to say off the top as well is we are very, very
supportive of FACTOR. We are
actually the FACTOR affiliate office for British Columbia. But FACTOR is spread very thin in terms
of they have to take care of the entire country, and what we find is a lot of
the young and emerging artists, there is a five or 10 per cent success rate for
applicants across the country.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18573
So really, while FACTOR does serve the country very well, there is a huge
need in British Columbia for additional funds here to help emerging artists in
addition to supplement FACTOR.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18574
So I would encourage the CRTC to look at a Vancouver‑based applicant in
terms of supporting local initiatives and local emerging artists. I think that is very important because
60 per cent is already going to FACTOR, and we would very much support any CCD
programs that are staying local.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18575
Again, I would just like to reiterate our thanks to the CRTC for
recognizing the music industry associations in the radio review for being
recipients of CCD monies and encouraging broadcasters to have relationships with
the provincial Music Industry Associations.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18576
I just wanted to firstly outline what our current relationship is with
broadcasters.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18577
We already have worked with Standard, which is now Astro, The Beat, Jim
Pattison Broadcasting, OK Broadcasting, CHUM‑FM, many of the broadcasters over
the last seven or eight years and have developed I think a very good
relationship with the broadcasters in providing Canadian content
programs.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18578
I think that we would respectfully ask the CRTC to please encourage
broadcasters to use Music B.C. for administering their programs. I could say that I think we are in the
best position to administer programs and the reason is we are non‑profit. We are completely, utterly dedicated to
developing emerging artists. That
is what we do.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18579
We can encourage that funds stay local and that the funds are actually
used for developing artists and not for marketing the radio station, which
sometimes happens with Canadian Content Development
monies.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18580
We also can leverage every dollar.
One thing we do is for every dollar that we get, we will often leverage
that money. I will give you an
example.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18581
We did a tour program of British Columbia called a Get Out Of Town Tour,
and we were able to involve Jim Pattison, OK Broadcasting, along with the
provincial government and other sponsors.
So we actually leveraged the money we get.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18582
So as a non‑profit we don't just take the money; we also can turn that
dollar into five or ten because we can work with other partners. So we are in that position where we can
do that.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18583
The other issue is we can often get a bigger bang for the buck, so to
speak. For every dollar that we
get, if I go to a studio for recording fund, I can often get a preferred rate at
the studio because we are non‑profit.
If a radio station goes, well, they're going to pay book rate. So we can often get more value for that
money is well.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18584
So there are a lot of reasons why it is a good idea for radio stations
and broadcasters to use the MIAs and Music B.C.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18585
I think five of the applicants took that to heart this time, so five of
the applicants have involved Music B.C.
SKY‑FM has proposed a $1,720 per annum increasing over the seven years in
discretionary funds just to Music B.C.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18586
SHORE‑FM have allocated $10,000 per annum for discretionary funds to be
used as B.C. desires.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18587
The Planet has set forth $70,000 per annum as discretionary funds for
Music B.C. programs.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18588
Astral has set forth $70,000 per annum for an emerging artist touring
program to be administered by Music B.C.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18589
And of course, as you heard yesterday, Jimmy Pattison Group have
dedicated $755,700 per annum, plus $50,000 per annum for our MTAP program for
their peak performance program.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18590
We would like to actually encourage the CRTC to actually license the two
FM licences. If you allow the Jimmy
Pattison Group to have their AM/FM flip, we could actually double the CCD
contributions. I mean, if they are
putting in $12 million and we get another FM licence, we could have up to $20
million in CCD funding, which would be absolutely wonderful to the music
community and to the industry.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18591
So that is one opinion.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18592
I would just like to go back and discuss some of the
programs.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18593
The Planet originally came to us, and that is 0785330 B.C. Ltd. They came to us and asked us, "What you
need?" And we said, "We need
sustained funding."
LISTNUM
1 \l 18594
One of the problems with all the music industry associations is we have a
difficulty sustaining ourselves because programs change and policies change and
we have to eke out an existence.
Having the funds as they propose, $70,000 a year over seven years, would
help Music B.C. to sustain itself over a seven‑year period. It is something that we have lacked in
the last 15 years, 18 years. Those
types of programs are great.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18595
What it will do is it will help enhance our programs that exist. We have scholarship funds and instrument
programs and demo programs and marketing programs for emerging artists. We have compilation CDs for emerging
artists. We have a career
development series. We have a
directory. We have a resource
library.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18596
But all of these things can't happen unless we can sustain the
organization. So really we are very
encouraged by The Planet's understanding of that need, and when they came to us
with that we welcomed that with open arms.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18597
Astral came to us as well and they said, "What program would be great for
you?" We pointed out that we had
done a successful touring program where we were actually able to tour a number
of artists together and get economies of scale; where we could have three or
four artists touring together. They
can share marketing, they can share their fan bases and we can use all those
things to leverage the artist careers and then also have the money to market
it.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18598
So the Astral program is designed with that in mind, and we would be able
to have two of those kind of tours a year.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18599
The other thing that is of note in that application is the leverage
issue, where we are proposing that we should be able to go to the provincial
government or other sponsors to double that money and probably even enhance more
what the emerging artist can do.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18600
So in conclusion, I would like to say that everything that Music B.C.
does is helping emerging artists.
That is what we do. Any of
these CCD programs that would help us will help them.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18601
Also, a lot of these programs that are being proposed will also help
stabilize Music B.C., which really helps the community, because with a strong
Music B.C. then we can go out and really do our job for emerging artists and for
the industry.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18602
So thank you very much for your time.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18603
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Commissioner Cugini, please.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18604
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank
you, Mr. D'Eith.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18605
I really don't have any questions for you because your presentation
yesterday and of course your presentation this morning are quite
clear.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18606
I am sure that the broadcasters are very appreciative of your fair and
unbiased support for those who have made CCD contributions and specifically to
those who have made it to Music B.C.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18607
We like to think that they always listen to us and they take a hint from
our Commercial Radio Policy, but I also think that it is a clear demonstration
of the respect, that is the mutual respect, between those broadcasters and what
Music B.C. does.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18608
So I think hats off to you as well.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18609
MR. D'EITH: Thank you very
much.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18610
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank
you, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18611
THE CHAIRPERSON: I just had
one question as you were making your presentation.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18612
What are your efforts in terms of making the same pitch to all of the
different broadcasters and have they been receptive?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18613
MR. D'EITH: Oh, in terms of
the ‑‑ well, we had an open door policy with all the broadcasters. If any of the broadcasters that were
making an application for this FM licence had come to us, we would have worked
with them. Some chose not to. Some chose to work with us on a smaller
level and some went in full bore, and everything in
between.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18614
But this is really the first time this has happened, and I think it has a
lot to do with the Radio Review and the encouragement ‑‑ I hope that is
what happened. They saw, hey, you
know, if we work with Music B.C., that might be favourable because the CRTC sees
that as favourable.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18615
I think that this is the first time that we have done this and I hope
that next time all the applicants will come to us. That is what would be the hope. Of course, we have an open
door.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18616
I like to say we are Switzerland, you know, because we work with all of
the broadcasters. We actually have
broadcasters on our board that sit in the same room and work with us for
emerging artists. It is
wonderful. You know, we can bring
parties together that are often in competition in a neutral area to help the
industry, and I think that message is starting to get out
there.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18617
THE CHAIRPERSON: I take it
you must proactively go out there and just tell the broadcasters to, hey, just
think of me all the time.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18618
MR. D'EITH: We are trying to
do that more. One of the problems I
guess with the process is that we don't always know who is applying and so we
would have to sort of guess and sort of throw our net out.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18619
In this case we didn't know everybody who was going to apply, and then by
the time they applied the CCD programs are sort of spoken for and you kind of
take what you can get.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18620
So we are trying our best to have constant dialogue with the broadcasters
and build those relationships. And
I think the more programs that we do with the discretionary CCD funds, the more
they will see that we do a good job and that we help the artists. And then when they do do their dedicated
programs, they will come to us.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18621
I think that will come over time.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18622
THE CHAIRPERSON: All
right. Thank you very much for
taking the time to participate.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18623
MR. D'EITH: Thank you very
much.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18624
THE SECRETARY: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18625
We will now hear the last intervenor, NCRA, The National Campus and
Community Radio Association.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM
1 \l 18626
THE SECRETARY: Please
introduce yourself and you have 10 minutes. Thank you.
INTERVENTION
LISTNUM
1 \l 18627
MS ZALTZ: Good morning. My name is Freya Zaltz. I am Vice‑President of the National
Campus and Community Radio Association and a volunteer board member at CFUV‑FM
in Victoria, B.C.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18628
The National Campus and Community Radio Association is a not‑for‑profit
organization committed to volunteer‑based community and campus radio
broadcasting in Canada. It works to
advance the role and increase the effectiveness of community access
broadcasting. It provides
information and networking services to its 53 member stations, represents the
interests of the sector and promotes public awareness and appreciation for
community and campus radio.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18629
The NCRA filed an intervention concerning two applications by the CBC to
use three frequencies in the Gabriola and Nanaimo areas to provide better
coverage to Vancouver Island and the Sunshine Coast.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18630
In principle we are not opposed to the approval of these
applications. However, we are
concerned that the use of what may be the last three remaining frequencies in
the area suitable for A‑1 use means that Gabriola Community Radio, GCR, a member
of our association, may be effectively precluded from obtaining a broadcasting
licence. The proposed signals of
other applicants in this proceeding may also cause difficulty for GCR depending
on their technical parameters and the combination of applicants the Commission
chooses to license.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18631
So I hope you will consider the points I am raising here in the context
of the proceedings of the whole.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18632
The issues here relate to the Commission's policies regarding licensing
priorities, low‑power licensing and spectrum allocation and that is what I will
address in my submission today.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18633
Paragraph 3(1)(b) of the Broadcast Act describes the Canadian
broadcasting system as comprising public, private and community elements. From our perspective, this means that
one of the Commission's responsibilities is to ensure that all three elements
can coexist in as many Canadian markets as possible.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18634
The recent Diversity of Voices decision highlights the importance of
ensuring that communities are served by all three complementary elements
whenever possible so that listeners are exposed to a variety of editorial voices
and programming content.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18635
As you may know, not‑for‑profit radio organizations often take years to
accomplish what for‑profit corporations can do in mere weeks or months. This is because the work is done by
volunteers, often busy with full‑time jobs and family
commitments.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18636
But despite a serious lack of stable funding sources in Canada, they
provide what is, in many cases, the sole independent media voice for their
communities. This includes diverse
spoken word and music content, coverage of local issues and public affairs and
an opportunity for minority voices to be heard.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18637
They also create unique community development opportunities by providing
a forum to debate divergent perspectives on local issues and educational
opportunities for community members to learn about
broadcasting.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18638
GCR is no exception to this.
The Society has been working for six years to develop partnerships,
create policies and plans, deal with logistics like selecting a tower location,
planning studio construction, equipment purchases, conducting community outreach
and fund raising. Eventually, they
may like to collaborate with other Gulf Islands, none of which have local
community radio service yet.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18639
But they have not yet managed to complete an engineering brief, and this
is not for lack of preparation but because they have been wrestling with the
difficulty of finding both a suitable antenna location and a suitable
frequency. The CBC applications,
and others, have now added to their difficulty.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18640
One possible responses for the CRTC to deny CBC and others in this
proceeding the use of one of the three frequencies unless their technical
parameters would allow GCR to use the same one without undue interference. In particular, we understand that GCR
could most effectively serve the population of Gabriola island using 104.1 or
98.7 FM. If neither frequency is
available to them, any remaining options would likely provide limited coverage
to the Island and/or interference with other broadcasters.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18641
So assuming that these are the last remaining frequencies available in
the area that could accommodate an A‑1 or B‑1 broadcaster, we asked the
Commission to consider who should be given priority.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18642
Should be a CBC repeater to serve an area that arguably already receives
CBC service? Should it be a
commercial broadcaster? Or should
it be a non‑commercial service where there is local support for
one?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18643
As a matter of policy, we suggest that the establishment of a
non‑commercial service where one does not yet exist should take precedence in
the allocation of the last available frequency.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18644
If both CBC applications are approved, we understand that GCR's options
will be as follows:
LISTNUM
1 \l 18645
One, find an A‑1 frequency that will serve the entire island and will not
interfere with any existing or proposed broadcaster. Their engineer believes that this is
impossible.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18646
Two, find an A‑1 frequency that may serve only a portion of Gabriola
residents and may require minor technical amendments by the CBC or that may
cause minor interference with the CBC signal or that of another existing
broadcaster.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18647
Three, find a low‑power FM frequency that falls into either of the two
previous categories. This option
would create serious coverage limitations and is far from
ideal.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18648
If option number two is possible, we ask that the Commission strongly
encourage and support the CBC and any other affected broadcaster to work with
GCR in four ways. We understand
that CBC has agreed already to help in these areas.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18649
First, make minor technical amendments if needed to permit GCR to use an
adjacent frequency.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18650
Second, to accept a small degree of interference with their protected
contours if no other options exist.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18651
Three, to provide space on their proposed Gabriola tower for GCR's
antenna.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18652
And four, to provide other technical assistance or support to help ensure
that both services can coexist on Gabriola island.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18653
We also ask the Commission to re‑examine its policies in two key
areas.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18654
The first is that of licensing priority, as I mentioned earlier. As we argued in the Diversity of Voices
proceeding, in an era of increasing spectrum scarcity, we believe a policy is
needed to ensure that communities can develop a community radio service if one
does not yet exist or obtain a protected A‑1 frequency for an existing
developmental or low‑power service.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18655
This would require some form of frequency or licence reservation in each
market and a limit on the number of licences the Commission can approve in
markets where spectrum scarcity is an issue and a protected community radio
broadcaster does not yet exist.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18656
Ideally, the Commission would work with Industry Canada to estimate the
number of frequencies remaining in each market, reserve one or more for
community use and ensure that the last frequency is not awarded to a commercial
or public applicant if it would preclude establishing a community radio
service.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18657
It may also require dialogue with other regulatory bodies like the FCC to
ensure that new protections granted in Canada are respected by American
broadcasters.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18658
It is worth noting that in the U.S., New Zealand and Australia, the lower
portion of the FM band has been reserved for many years for exclusive use by
non‑commercial broadcasters, and in the absence of a similar mechanism in Canada
we encourage you to take alternate measures now to ensure that communities can
be served by all three elements of the broadcasting
system.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18659
It is also important to note that community broadcasters, due to their
financial position, may not be able to access emerging technologies and may
remain dependent on traditional FM broadcasting equipment and the existing range
of FM frequencies for sometime to come.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18660
The second policy area we would like to see re‑examined is regarding
low‑power FM in light of option number three that I mentioned a few moments
ago.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18661
Recently, several community radio stations have been bumped or are at
risk of being bumped for their unprotected low‑power frequencies by commercial
broadcasters who have applied for the same frequency. This causes undue hardship for
low‑budget volunteer‑run stations that must quickly find a new frequency,
complete an application, fund raise for new equipment, notify their listeners of
the change, and so on.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18662
In a climate of spectrum scarcity, community broadcasters are having an
increasingly difficult time finding suitable A‑1 frequencies to move to when
bumping occurs. This is
particularly so because financial constraints limit them to low‑cost tower
locations. It does not make sense
for these stations to move to another low‑power frequency if it leaves them
vulnerable to being bumped again in future.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18663
And consider also that in small, compact communities, community radio
broadcasters may be able to reach their desired population adequately with
low‑power and that is not the case in Gabriola. But in general sometimes the only reason
these broadcasters apply for A‑1 frequencies is to achieve protection and not
because high power is necessary to accomplish their
goals.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18664
But neither GCR nor any other community broadcaster would consider it
good use of their funds to apply for a low‑power licence if it is likely that
they would be bumped from their frequency, particularly if there is nowhere to
move to.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18665
Therefore, if GCR cannot find a suitable A‑1 frequency and is left with
only a low‑power option, we ask the Commission to make an exception to the
low‑power policy by providing frequency protection. We also ask that you make a similar
exception on a case‑by‑case basis in the future where it would enable small
community broadcasters to begin or continue broadcasting without future undue
hardship.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18666
This is my comment a moment ago about cooperation with the FCC. This is where it would be necessary so
they would recognize this protection.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18667
The Commission has indicated in the past that it recognizes the
importance of independent community radio stations. We are grateful for your recent
recognition of the Community Radio Fund of Canada as an eligible recipient of
CCD benefits to support the work of these broadcasters.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18668
Now we ask you to take policy steps to protect them and enable their
creation.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18669
In closing, we ask you to consider Gabriola Co‑Op Radio's request for
support and also to develop mechanisms to support and enable other community
broadcasters in future. Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18670
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Commissioner Duncan, please.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18671
COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Thank
you for your comments. They are
certainly detailed.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18672
I'm sure you appreciate that we are not doing a policy review and
apparently did make a presentation at the Diversity of Voices proceeding. There is, I believe, a community
broadcasting review coming up later this year, and so you have an opportunity
there.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18673
So for right now we can only deal with the rules that we
have.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18674
The Gabriola Society did make a very effective presentation earlier,
which I'm sure you heard.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18675
I guess the concern is what is reasonable or how long do you think it is
reasonable for us to delay, given the context that we are working in now, that
the rules are not such that you recommend, as you
recommended?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18676
MS ZALTZ: You are asking me
for an estimate of how long you should delay while you wait for
Gabriola?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18677
COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:
Yes. I'm asking what you
think is reasonable.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18678
I know you are proposing that there should be a rule that the last
frequency not go to a commercial, or CBC, if the community radio is not in
place, but that rule is not in place now.
Gabriola have asked us to delay our decision until they have a chance to
get their engineering report together.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18679
So I'm wondering how long do you think it is reasonable, given we have
all these applications and we do have many with community support ‑‑ how
long do you think it is reasonable to expect we could wait or should
wait?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18680
MS ZALTZ: Well, if it's all
right, I would like to speak to what the logistical issues are for Gabriola
Community Radio.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18681
If they pay their engineer to complete a brief for a 104.1 or 98.7, which
they would like to use, and you deny them the use of those frequencies, that is
a significant chunk of money that they will have spent out of their fund raising
revenue to create a brief that is not useful.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18682
If they submit a brief to you for an alternate channel and it is
approved, that is not really what they want because they will be compromising on
the kind of service that they can provide to their
community.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18683
So I think what they would prefer to do is have you decide and decide to
reserve one of those frequencies and not allocate it to the other applicants,
and then they would complete their engineering brief afterwards so they are not
wasting money in doing it just in case.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18684
Otherwise, if you really were to delay and wait for them, they now have
to decide if it is better use of money to apply for one they think they are
unlikely to get our better use of money to apply for one that doesn't give them
what they want.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18685
So I'm not really sure how to answer the amount of time that would help
them figure that out.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18686
COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Because
I noticed that you did say that they had been ‑‑ and it is the result of
the type of association they are.
But they have been working for six years to get to this
point.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18687
So it would certainly be a concern for us at this point, having had this
proceeding, this call go this far, to delay to give them some unspecified amount
of time to apply and compete with what we already have in front of
us.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18688
Anyway, I do appreciate your comments and perhaps some of the others,
Madam Chair, might have some questions.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18689
THE CHAIRPERSON: No. We do appreciate your intervention. It is a very difficult situation, as we
can all appreciate. We appreciate
the time that you have taken to participate.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18690
Thank you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18691
MS ZALTZ: Thank you very
much for the opportunity. We
recognize that you are not making policy decisions here, but we think it is
important to raise them as issues that have arisen that we would like to see
addressed in future, because we think that these kinds of situations will arise
more and more as the spectrum becomes increasingly full in all parts of the
country.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18692
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18693
THE SECRETARY: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18694
This concludes Phase III, which is a list of appearing
interveners.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18695
We will take one hour and a half for lunch, so we will be back at one
o'clock with Phase IV.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18696
Thank you.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1135 / Suspension à
1135
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1300 / Reprise à
1300
LISTNUM
1 \l 18697
THE SECRETARY: Please take a
seat.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18698
We will now proceed to Phase IV in which applicants can reply to all the
interventions submitted on their application. Applicants appear in reverse
order.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18699
We will now hear Mr. Matthew Gordon McBride for his application. You have 10
minutes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18700
Thank you.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
LISTNUM
1 \l 18701
MR. McBRIDE: Thank you,
Madam Chair and Commissioners. I
will not take 10 minutes to respond to the interventions.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18702
I have a remark on one intervener and that is the intervention on behalf
of Frank Torres and his application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18703
If the Commission sees fit to approve my application for CKPM‑FM in Port
Moody, I would be very pleased to have the MuddCats appear at our launch party,
and I will right now extend them an opportunity to make a submission for our
playlist there and they are welcome to have an addition to the playlist on any
radio station that I currently operate as of today.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18704
I would extend the same thing to Tom Lavin but I already have him
covered.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18705
Outside of that, I have no further comments, Commissioners. I wish to thank all of the residents and
supporters of the Tri‑Cities for their enthusiasm for this radio station and I
hope that you have captured some of that sense.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18706
I thank the Commission first for hearing our request for this station,
and I give you my best in the decisions most difficult that I am certain you
will face in the coming days and weeks.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18707
Thank you again for the opportunity to appear.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18708
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. McBride, for taking the time to reply.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18709
I'm sorry, Mr. McBride, legal has questions.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18710
MS PINSKY: I'm sorry, I just
have one question to clarify for the record.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18711
You have committed to a minimum of 25 per cent of the Cat. 3 music level
based on jazz and blues.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18712
Is that correct?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18713
MR. McBRIDE:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18714
MS PINSKY: I just wanted to
confirm for the record that you would be willing to commit to a condition of
licence of a minimum of 25 per cent of that
category?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18715
MR. McBRIDE: We will accept
that, yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18716
MS PINSKY: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18717
THE CHAIRPERSON: Sorry about
that. Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18718
THE SECRETARY: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18719
I would now ask Frank Torres to come to the presentation
table.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM
1 \l 18720
THE SECRETARY: Please
introduce yourself and you have 10 minutes.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
LISTNUM
1 \l 18721
MR. ED TORRES: We just have
an audio presentation that we are going to boot up.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18722
I feel the weight of the private broadcast industry on my shoulders. I have been getting a lot of advice from
applicants because we get to respond to the CBC's intervention on our
application. That's okay, we have
broad shoulders.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18723
Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, Commission staff, my name is Ed
Torres. With me today is my brother
Frank Torres, seated to my right; to his right, Aubrey Clarke and Yves
Trottier.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18724
First, let me thank and acknowledge all the supporters of our blues radio
applications. At present we have
received close to 1,000 individual letters of support for our proposed
format.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18725
We would also like to thank the interveners who have appeared in support
of these applications, including today, and to all of those people who have
encouraged our work and supported it to give the blues in Canada a commercial
voice.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18726
Let us state categorically and for the record that this application by
DAWG‑FM has been given technical acceptance by Industry
Canada.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18727
Let us also state categorically that DAWG‑FM has never intervened against
the CBC in these proceedings or otherwise.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18728
The CBC has chosen to intervene against us in every proceeding that we
have participated in. They have
objected to all four of our applications that are currently in front of the
CRTC. The CBC's culture of spectrum
entitlement is perhaps the single‑most difficult barrier to entry into the
broadcast system that we have encountered in our attempts for a blues format
radio licence.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18729
The intervention before you speaks to the very reason that Vancouver is
arguably one of the most underserved markets in Canada. The protected contours of Victoria
stations that reach into Vancouver and provide poor quality signals in
Vancouver, sometimes inaudible signals, that is precisely why there is little
spectrum available here.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18730
It is a point we have made in our presentation. Vancouver has only one commercial
mainstream radio station for every 141,000 residents; Halifax, by contrast, one
for every 41,000.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18731
In the Lower Mainland and Vancouver Island regions, CBC controls an
astonishing 22 frequencies. In the
feudal system of FM spectrum, they are the Lord of the castle and we represent
the peasants.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18732
Various applicants at these proceedings intervened against the CBC. To paraphrase their interventions, the
CBC greatly exaggerates claims of interference to the detriment of private
broadcasters, community stations and they hinder the full use of the Canadian
spectrum.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18733
In fact, on Thursday morning we watched applicant after applicant attack
the CBC for these exaggerations. We
did not.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18734
Then we watched the CBC sit down and attack our application. They did not respond to any of the
broadsides the other broadcasters levelled, as this was not really their
agenda.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18735
The irony of this is that we consciously avoided applying on 104.1
because of our knowledge of their plans to use it in Nanaimo. In layman's terms, the CBC objects to
the use of 89.3 for Vancouver because it will theoretically cause potential
second adjacent interference to their Victoria Espace Musique frequency in some
very small parts of Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18736
The CBC transmits Espace Musique from two places: Mount Seymour in Vancouver on 90.9, and
from their transmitter northwest of Victoria on 88.9. The Mount Seymour transmitter broadcasts
at 100,000 Watts, the Victoria transmitter at 80,000 Watts. This gives them duplicate coverage
throughout the downtown of Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18737
The CBC claims that there are two areas that are vulnerable ‑‑
interesting choice of words ‑‑ to potential second adjacent
interference.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18738
MR. FRANK TORRES: We will
deal with area one first, downtown Vancouver, and refer you to map number one,
which should accompany this handout.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18739
Our engineers did show a theoretical ‑‑ again, theoretical ‑‑
interference to the Victoria signal in downtown Vancouver, but the interference
will not cause any loss of coverage to listeners of Espace Musique because of
the transmission of Espace Musique from Mount Seymour on 90.9 at 100,000
watts. It truly does boom into the
downtown core.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18740
We have taken a page from Mr. Carnovale's book. After all, imitation is the highest form
of flattery. We did a little drive
yesterday morning through the affected area and we are going to play a sample of
88.9 ‑‑ again, that is the Victoria version of Espace Musique that does
penetrate Vancouver ‑‑ followed immediately by the Vancouver‑based Mount
Seymour 90.9 transmission.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18741
So again, we are going to play the clips now. They are back‑to‑back. There is just a very short pause in
between them. The first one is
Victoria, the second one is Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18742
And there is no audio.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18743
MR. ED TORRES: I think you
muted it.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18744
MR. FRANK TORRES: All
right. Stand by. Take two.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18745
And we are now on to take three.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18746
Let's try another one. Let's
try another one.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM
1 \l 18747
MR. FRANK TORRES: All right,
just one second.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18748
What we are going to do is we will make it even less scientific and we
will play it directly out of the speaker associated with the laptop here instead
of trying to pipe it through the PA.
Maybe we can make our point that way.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18749
Again, so let's try it here.
The first signal Victoria, the second signal Mount
Seymour.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18750
MR. ED TORRES: Oh, there it
is. The volume is muted on
here.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18751
MR. FRANK TORRES: You said
to mute our cell phones but not our computers.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18752
All right. Just one
moment. Here we
go.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18753
MR. ED TORRES: This works so
well in rehearsal.
‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip
audio
LISTNUM
1 \l 18754
MR. FRANK TORRES: At
last. Thank you for your
patience.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18755
You can notice that both signals, although audible, it is very obvious
that the second signal, the Mount Seymour signal, clearly beams into Vancouver
and is vastly superior to the Victoria signal.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18756
I enjoyed that music, because my heritage is a Spanish. It is clearly the same Spanish track,
and it does prove that there is more than adequate coverage in Vancouver, in
fact duplication of coverage in Vancouver from the Mount Seymour
transmitter.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18757
Thus, there will be no net loss to listeners of Espace Musique and as
such ‑‑ that wasn't a part of the intervention, but now we refer you to map
2, area 2, sorry, on map 1.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18758
It is an area of ‑‑ it is the second claim of
vulnerability.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18759
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Torres,
I'm sorry, I don't have map 2.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18760
MR. FRANK TORRES: I'm sorry,
it's map 1. It's the same map, just
the second area that was indicated.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18761
That claim of vulnerability deals with an area of 500 people that live 42
kilometres northwest of the Victoria transmitter site in remote areas south of
Gordon.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18762
Originally the CBC claimed that 3,000 people were affected by this
potential theoretical interference, but when we researched our census figures
and we advised, they revised their number downward substantially. That number was reduced by 84 per cent,
an 84 per cent error on their part.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18763
Possibly the greatest example of interference exaggeration, CBC claims
that second adjacent interference from our small 918‑watt transmitter located
105 kilometres away in Burnaby will cause interference to the CBC signal beaming
at 80,000 watts a mere 42 kilometres away from that area.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18764
As you can see from our brief, that map that is in front of you, there is
no potential area of interference there.
We pointed that out to CBC as well.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18765
Now, I would like to read an e‑mail from Industry Canada that confirms
exactly the information that we have just mentioned.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18766
I will quote:
"It would appear from my and other
studies that the only interference to the proposal would occur to a minuscule
area on the fringe of the CBC Victoria signal, CBUX‑FM‑1 in downtown Vancouver,
which I would assume is more than adequately served by CBUX‑FM. Furthermore, I note that the CBUX‑FM‑1
brief explicitly states that the intent of the station
is..."
LISTNUM 1 \l 18767
Subquote:
LISTNUM 1 \l 18768
MR. TROTTIER: "'...de
desservir Victoria et ses environs'".
LISTNUM
1 \l 18769
That means to serve Victoria and its surrounding
area.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18770
MR. FRANK TORRES: End of
subquote:
"... which would presumably not
include Vancouver."
LISTNUM
1 \l 18771
End of quote.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18772
Let's now for the sake of argument, though, suppose that our 918‑watt
transmitter, located 105 kilometres away from this potential zone of
interference which we could not identify through our engineering brief, did
provide some interference to that 80,000‑watt signal. The BBM data suggests that CBUX pulls a
.2 share in the market, and by applying that number to the 550 theoretically
interfered with persons, it means that 11 people could potentially be
theoretically affected. Eleven
people.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18773
MR. ED TORRES: On Thursday
morning the CBC said ‑‑ and I paraphrase ‑‑ that they had exceeded
their mandate to make Espace Musique available to 50 per cent of Canadians in
B.C. It was available to 66 per
cent of the province. The loss of
11 theoretical potential listeners does not affect this
percentage.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18774
If the CRTC licenses DAWG‑FM, 66 per cent of the province will still have
that listening option available to them.
More importantly nearly 2 million Vancouver residents will get the music
that they want to hear on 89.3, the blues.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18775
Overwhelmingly at this hearing supporting interveners and other
applicants have brought forth strong evidence that Vancouver needs a blues
station.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18776
We will close again by reiterating that we have technical acceptance from
Industry Canada for this frequency.
It was not an easy process, but it was a consultative process. At every step along the way we have
consulted with CBC and Industry Canada.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18777
We are not rogue applicants.
We are simply looking for new ideas and new ways to maximize
spectrum. This is
one.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18778
We have another one and we would like to talk to you about that next
week.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18779
I would be remiss if I did not take a moment to thank Industry Canada for
their extensive work on this file.
I would like to get this on the record.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18780
I would also like to reflect our gratitude to our engineering consultants
for this innovative solution and their hard work to achieve
it.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18781
We will take any questions.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18782
THE CHAIRPERSON: Legal
counsel...?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18783
I'm sorry, Ms Pinsky, Commissioner Duncan has a
question.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18784
COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: I just
want to be absolutely certain I have this right.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18785
The other day we talked about 89.3 and you said you would be willing to
accept 104.1.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18786
Is that correct? Or are you
still 89.3?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18787
MR. ED TORRES: Our
application is for 89.3, but we would accept 104.1
conditionally.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18788
COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: All
right, thank you. That's what I
understood.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18789
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
very much for your application and your time, and we will see you again next
week.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18790
MR. ED TORRES: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18791
THE SECRETARY: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18792
I would now ask CBC to come to the presentation
table.
‑‑‑ Pause
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
LISTNUM
1 \l 18793
MR. CARNOVALE: Good
afternoon, Madam Chair, Commissioners.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18794
We are at the end of a long and very interesting week. We will be brief.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18795
First, we would like to express our appreciation to the over 1,800 people
that registered their support for our applications for Vancouver and
Nanaimo. We have been impressed
with their passion and commitment to help us realize our plans in this
region.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18796
We will comment on three points raised in Phase II with respect to
104.1: one, alternate frequencies;
two, impairment of 104.1 in Vancouver; and three, our plans to serve
Nanaimo.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18797
First, alternate frequencies.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18798
Five alternatives to 104.1 were put forward.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18799
Vista suggested that 89.5 could serve as an alternative for CBC in
Nanaimo. Did we look at 89.5? Yes, we did and we rejected it because
it is first adjacent with Vista's station in Duncan on 89.7, some 30 kilometres
away.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18800
Vista has indicated that it is prepared to accept some level of
interference to its Duncan station but hasn't specified either the compromises
it would accept to its coverage in Duncan or the resultant coverage for us in
Nanaimo.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18801
Even assuming an agreement could be arrived at, the issue doesn't end
there. Coordination with CHEK would
be required. Coordination would
also be required for the Bellingham station through the
FCC.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18802
As well, the use of 89.5 could impact on the coverage potential of the
applicants the CRTC will consider next week for Chilliwack and
Abbotsford.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18803
This is not a simple proposition.
A full engineering brief would have to be developed. It would have to be coordinated between
CBC and Vista in such a way that the coverage is as good as what 104.1 offers,
which may not be possible.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18804
Industry Canada would have to approve it and an amended application would
have to be filed, and the CRTC would have to defer its decision on this
proceeding, recognizing that use of this frequency may restrict what the CRTC
could do in Chilliwack and Abbotsford.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18805
Taken all together, we don't think it is a good
idea.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18806
Rock 95 has suggested that CBC could recycle its AM 690 signal for
Vancouver Island.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18807
If we were to use 690 AM for Nanaimo, we would have to move the
transmitter. The 25 millivolt
contour, which is the official definition of an urban grade signal, currently
covers most but not all of Vancouver.
It would have to be moved so that it would cover in
Nanaimo.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18808
Setting up AM stations is a very expensive proposition and investing in
AM infrastructure is, in our view, a poor investment of our scarce public
resources.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18809
The Coast suggested that 98.7 on Gabriola could be used to serve Nanaimo
and the Sunshine Coast.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18810
Theoretically, it could. We
considered this option, but unfortunately Rogers objected, as is their right, on
the basis of the potential interference it might cause to their Victoria station
were they to operate at full parameters.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18811
As a result, we had no choice but to design our coverage in the way we
did. Both The Coast and SHORE‑FM
suggested that we could use 89.1 instead of 98.7 to serve the Sunshine Coast
area.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18812
SHORE‑FM quoted from industry Canada's letter of technical acceptance
dated February 18th. What they
didn't do was finish the quote, which says:
"It should be noted that the
Department also considers 206 89.1, to be a viable channel for the CBC, although
the CBC do not. However, as 254
98.7 will not interfere with any existing service, whereas 206 would interfere
with the existing CBUX‑FM‑1 205 signal from Victoria, 254 is considered the
better choice."
LISTNUM
1 \l 18813
Finally, The Coast suggested that 88.1 from Vancouver could cover
Nanaimo.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18814
We know that. That is not
the point. The point is to bring
the Island Radio One service to Nanaimo.
Nanaimo already receives the Vancouver service on AM, so providing it to
them on FM is hardly an alternative.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18815
On the impairment to 104.1 in Vancouver, we would say the following: 104.1 is subject to interference from
KAFE Bellingham. I don't think that
is in dispute. Clearly applicants
such as Newcap, Harvard and Vista acknowledge the situation. For intervener such as SHORE‑FM, In
House and The Coast to say this isn't a factor is a bit
disingenuous.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18816
The question for the Commission is:
What is the best use of 104.1?
And that determination needs to take into account the limitations of the
frequency.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18817
I would like to say a few more words about 690.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18818
First, there is a misconception about the number of interventions against
our proposed move from AM to FM.
They represent but a small fraction of those interventions in
favour.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18819
The evidence you have heard from the interveners for and against clearly
underline our point. The signal
quality of 690 AM is very inconsistent, as also borne out in our engineering
report which we would be happy to provide.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18820
Commissioner Williams mentioned about hearing the signal in the hotel
using the hotel radio. Well, that
is part of the variability. Which
side of the building? Was it south
facing the transmitter site? Was
that on the north side? Was it
close to the window? Was it away
from the window?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18821
What you will find is even within a given hotel room, the signal quality
can be all over the map.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18822
One thing is for certain:
the quality of the AM signal will continue to
degrade.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18823
Just look out the window and you see the proliferation of high‑rise
buildings, all of which serve to suck up the signal.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18824
This is the concrete jungle and it just gets progressively worse. The sources of man‑made interference get
progressively worse.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18825
As we indicated on Wednesday, the frequencies that we have asked for,
only one of which is mutually exclusive with other applicants, together with our
existing FM transmitters, will provide a continuum of coverage from Chilliwack
through to Campbell River.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18826
Finally, with regard to the simulcast period, the normal simulcast period
as allowed by Industry Canada is six months. We are quite prepared to be flexible on
extending that simulcast period if Industry Canada and the CRTC would allow
it.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18827
Johnny...?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18828
MR. MICHEL: My name is
Johnny Michel. I am the Regional
Director for CBC in British Columbia.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18829
I just want to respond to some of the comments with regards to our
Nanaimo service and programming.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18830
Some of the applicants have characterized our plans for Nanaimo as a
frequency grab, with a promise that we might establish a new station at some
point in the future. They missed
the point.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18831
Listeners in Nanaimo want coverage from Vancouver Island. That has been our starting point. So allow me to confirm our position
again.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18832
Should we be awarded the licence for 104.1 FM, we would open a News
Bureau in Nanaimo immediately and we would start covering Nanaimo news and
events immediately with reporters from the area.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18833
We are also willing to accept this as a condition of
licence.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18834
The integration of Nanaimo into the Vancouver Island service is what we
are trying to achieve. The Radio
One service out of Vancouver does not serve the people of Nanaimo because, as
you heard from the panel this morning, Vancouver's issues are not the same as
Nanaimo's.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18835
Next, on the amount of local content, I would like to respond to the
assertion that there is a massive duplication. So just allow me to walk you through
this.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18836
Let's compare the amount of content on Radio One with a commercial radio
station.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18837
The Morning Show on CBC Radio One from Victoria is 2‑1/2 hours long and
we will be feeding Nanaimo content into the show from our new News Bureau. There are newscasts throughout the day,
once every hour and five minutes on the hour. These will also have local
content.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18838
So take away the music content of a commercial radio station, take away
the network content of Radio One, and you are left with the amount of local live
content in the Morning Show and the newscast. Spread that throughout the day and
you'll find that this amount is very similar to what you will hear on any
commercial radio station.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18839
Madam Chair, Commissioners, what we have heard through this process is
that there is a broad acceptance to our plan to move to 88.1 in Vancouver to
address our reception problems. We
know that our proposal to use 98.7 to serve the Sunshine Coast can coexist with
another applicant on that frequency, so there is no reason why we couldn't make
the transition to FM there.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18840
Finally, you have heard from the community leaders of Nanaimo this
morning, and quite passionately as you have said so yourself, that they want and
need a dedicated FM frequency to serve their city. This is Radio One's best solution to
serve the people of this region.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18841
Thank you for your attention.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18842
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Commissioner Menzies, please.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18843
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Just
regarding your statement about opening a News Bureau in Nanaimo, given that they
receive the signal from Vancouver now anyway, why wouldn't you just go ahead and
open one?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18844
Why would you need the frequency changes to do
that?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18845
MR. MICHEL: Because, as we
have said in the past, Commissioner, the issues of Nanaimo are different than
the issues from Vancouver, and actually our research indicates that the issues
are even different than Victoria.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18846
So, you know, it would be easy for us, as you stated, for us just to go
ahead and open one, but there would be absolutely no coverage of Nanaimo issues
on the Vancouver service because that is not the mandate of the Vancouver
service.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18847
So really the only solution for us is to include that as part of the
Island because, as you heard again this morning from the panels from Nanaimo,
they feel more of an affinity and closeness as Islanders on Vancouver Island and
not with Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18848
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: All
right.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18849
But why would it do any harm to your Vancouver service for it to be
covering issues in Nanaimo?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18850
I understand that there is some water in between, et cetera, but people
in Vancouver I would think aren't disinterested in things. I mean, you wouldn't be leading your
newscast with Nanaimo news, but to be able to include some coverage wouldn't
seem to me to be that problematic given that your Vancouver coverage probably
includes news from time to time from Edmonton or Saskatoon or other places
across the country.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18851
Wouldn't it just provide broader, stronger regional
coverage?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18852
MR. MICHEL: Commissioner
Menzies, absolutely. I mean, we
could do coverage, but that coverage would be very minimal. Even if we did do it, it would not be
part of the mandate but it would be very minimal when you consider our mandate
to cover the entire province and some of the programming that we do and the
Vancouver, Greater Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18853
So the coverage for Nanaimo, if we were to do any, would be very minimal
within that mix.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18854
However, on the Island, when you consider the service on the Island, that
coverage would be commensurate with the population that lives on the Island and
so that coverage would be quite substantial.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18855
So could we do it? Yes. Would we be providing an adequate
service? We don't believe
so.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18856
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: So if
you did it through the Island, then, the coverage of Nanaimo issues and northern
Vancouver Island issues and the coverage of southern Vancouver Island issues and
Victoria, how would they be equivalent, 60/40, 70/30, 50/50? Give me some idea.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18857
MR. MICHEL: Sorry, just so I
understand correctly, you are asking if we did coverage of Nanaimo from the
Victoria service?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18858
COMMISSIONER MENZIES:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18859
MR. MICHEL: Like I said, it
would be commensurate with the overall population of the Island just to begin
with, as a starting point for the purpose of this
discussion.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18860
So if you look at 700,000 people that live on the Island and we will be
serving, from what you have heard this morning, around 150,000 and ultimately it
will be 350,000, the coverage is going to be within that range in terms of
percentage.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18861
COMMISSIONER MENZIES:
Right.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18862
Regarding the comment you made concerning thoughts about establishing a
station in Nanaimo ‑‑
LISTNUM
1 \l 18863
MR. MICHEL:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18864
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: ‑‑ why wouldn't that be in your plans if the
area is growing as quickly as it is?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18865
MR. MICHEL: It is part of
our plan.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18866
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: All
right.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18867
MR. MICHEL As we mentioned
yesterday I believe, on Wednesday during our ‑‑
LISTNUM
1 \l 18868
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: But
that is not the primary purpose of this?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18869
MR. MICHEL:
No.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18870
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: I must have misunderstood what you said
earlier.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18871
MR. MICHEL: No, that is not
the primary purpose of this, but it certainly is our look towards the
future.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18872
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: All
right.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18873
Just regarding the Sunshine Coast frequency, that is 98 ‑‑
sorry.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18874
MR. MICHEL:
98.7
LISTNUM
1 \l 18875
COMMISSIONER MENZIES:
98.7. If you establish that
and, just to be clear, that will service the entire Sunshine Coast area? Everybody will
be ‑‑
LISTNUM
1 \l 18876
MR. CARNOVALE: Certainly the
bulk of it.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18877
And if you can bear with me a second as I reach for one of my maps, it is
completely complementary with our coverage from Sechelt, CBUW‑FM. So as you are moving up the coast, one
transmitter leaves off, another one takes over. So it nicely fills the
gap.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18878
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: And no
one gets left out?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18879
MR. CARNOVALE: Very few
people. In fact, I would say that
on balance and the point that was made on Wednesday in our presentation, we
actually think that when you net out the improved availability delivered by the
FM signal and the fact that more people will be able to get a consistently good
quality signal, there are actually more people that gain than might lose in
terms of fringe AM coverage.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18880
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: All
right. Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18881
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Commissioner Williams, please.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18882
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good
afternoon, CBC panellists. Welcome
to this phase.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18883
Much has been said of various reception problems in parts of
Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18884
How long have these problems existed?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18885
MR. CARNOVALE: They have
existed in various forms actually for over 40 years of the 70‑year
history.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18886
CBU underwent a power increase in 1967 and that is when it went from 10
kilowatts to 50 kilowatts, and at that time we had the first inkling of the kind
of issue that has only gotten progressively worse.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18887
So there is nothing more that we can do with that frequency. It is running at maximum power. It has protections to other co‑channel
stations and receives interference from other co‑channel stations, including
XETRA in Tijuana, Mexico, which operates a full 50 kilowatts beamed
north.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18888
So the problem has actually been around for a long time. We have been searching for a frequency
since 1997.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18889
We attempted to go for a nested FM a few years ago and, as we indicated,
that was withdrawn. So it is a
long‑standing problem, and it just keeps getting worse.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18890
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So
for 11 years you have been trying to solve this problem?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18891
MR. CARNOVALE: With an AM to
FM flip or a nested FM in the first instance, yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18892
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What
year was the power increased again?
I missed that, I'm sorry.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18893
MR. CARNOVALE:
1967
LISTNUM
1 \l 18894
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So
that's 40 years ago.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18895
So just all of a sudden 104.1 magically appeared and that is the
preferred solution?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18896
I'm just wondering why it has taken 40 years to solve the
problem.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18897
MR. CARNOVALE: Sorry, 104.1
is not the preferred solution for us for Vancouver. It is 88.1.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18898
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:
Right. Right,
yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18899
MR. CARNOVALE: We in fact
first uncovered 104.1 along with 106.3 when we were assisting Aboriginal Voices
Radio to find a frequency a few years ago, and then 104.1 actually fell off the
table as a result of KAFE in Bellingham indicating that it actually wanted to go
to that frequency and instead of being first adjacent would have been
co‑channel.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18900
So the frequency actually came off the table when we applied for it in
Nanaimo, and reinstituted frequency coordination through Industry Canada with
the FCC was when it was determined that KAFE would not be changing frequency and
therefore it was reusable in Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18901
MR. SCARTH: Perhaps,
Commissioner Williams, if I can just add to that.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18902
You are asking what took you so long. The reality for us, and the message that
we delivered in our opening remarks, is for us it is now or never. Perhaps we have left it too long, but
now we are at the stage where FM spectrum availability is extremely scarce. We have identified the only options that
we can to make the transition from AM to FM.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18903
So perhaps we did leave it too late, but now we are at the stage where if
we don't make the transition to FM, we never will.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18904
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I
understand your position.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18905
What area does CBC on 690 AM currently serve now? Generally a big, big part of all of
Vancouver and of the Sunshine Coast and parts of Vancouver
Island?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18906
MR. CARNOVALE: If you look
at five millivolt, which is the residential grade contour ‑‑ and I need to
emphasize that when you are in an urban environment, you really need 25
millivolts or better to overcome the kind of signal absorption that happens with
buildings, the interference from electrical devices, even the trolley buses that
run on the streets of Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18907
But the five millivolt contour goes up towards Campbell River up in the
Northwest, and then in terms of down towards ‑‑ just encloses
Abbotsford.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18908
Also, it actually tends to hug the coastline. The reason why it goes so far up is
because of the high conductivity of the salt water. But the minute you hit the land, it
starts to drop off dramatically.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18909
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So
that is technically where it reaches, but if I understood Mr. Michel, your
mandate is primarily to serve Vancouver with that frequency and these other
communities are just beneficiaries of surplus Vancouver signal ‑‑ not
surplus, but they just happen to get Vancouver signal because of these
conditions we just talked about.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18910
Is that correct?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18911
MR. MICHEL: My comment,
Commissioner Williams, related to some of the programming that originates for
Vancouver only. For example, the
Early Edition is only for Vancouver and is only ‑‑
LISTNUM
1 \l 18912
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes,
I was just trying to explore whether because you were providing service
currently to Nanaimo and as far as Campbell River, as you have said, and others,
whether you had a responsibility to be reflective of those areas as well or is
it primarily a Vancouver responsibility or Vancouver reflection is your
opinion?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18913
MR. MICHEL: Our mandate is
to cover the entire Island, but when it comes to the specific shows and where
they reach, then the mandate is to serve the particular area that that show
reaches. And for the Early Edition,
for example, it is the Greater Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18914
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:
Commissioner Menzies explored with you why you would not open a Nanaimo
News Bureau and operate it on 690, as that area is currently being served by
690.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18915
In the event that we didn't approve what you have applied for, and in the
interests of giving these Nanaimo supporters of yours that intervened on your
behalf some satisfaction, would CBC consider continuing with this plan with a
Nanaimo News Bureau or other ways of increasing, I guess, a service, the Nanaimo
and other affected areas?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18916
MR. MICHEL: The issue with
that, Commissioner, is that, you know, it will only be on 690. As I mentioned earlier, the best way to
serve Nanaimo is through the Victoria station.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18917
We have Bureaus in Prince George, we have Prince Rupert, we have Bureaus
in Kelowna. But they have their own
morning shows and they serve the local communities better than we can. Some of that content ends up on Radio
One for the entire province, but very minimal because of the relative
perspectives and the mandates.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18918
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And
CBC Victoria does not have the same challenge? They are more willing to share some of
the time, so to speak, with other parts of the Island?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18919
MR. MICHEL: Oh, absolutely,
but that signal does not reach Nanaimo.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18920
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18921
MR. MICHEL: Yes. That is the issue
there.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18922
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All
right, thank you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18923
Those are my questions, Madam Chair. Thank you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18924
THE CHAIRPERSON: Just one
question.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18925
I think you are probably very familiar also with the landscape of the
Vancouver radio dial and that all of the talk shows are on the AM
dial.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18926
Would you care to comment on that?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18927
I don't think that there are any talk shows on the FM
dial.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18928
MR. MICHEL: Not that I'm
aware of, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18929
MR. SCARTH: Madam Chair,
perhaps if I could add something to that?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18930
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18931
MR. SCARTH: I don't think we
see Radio One as a talk show station, but we do have Radio One in every major
market across Canada on FM, with the exception of St. John's and Victoria, and
two more to come.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18932
THE CHAIRPERSON: I am a fan,
too, of 690 AM, so I am very familiar with the
programming.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18933
It was just I am looking at the landscape of our region, of our radio
dial, and I was just wondering whether you would care to comment on that one
last time.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18934
MR. MICHEL: Well, I guess
just ‑‑ what I would share with you is perhaps just some stats and some
numbers and facts.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18935
If you look at where AM is going and where FM is going, in the past 10
years there has been a 40 per cent drop in the AM stations. There were 287 AM stations and today
there is 178.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18936
On the FM side, in 1996 there were 192 FM stations. Today there is 419 FM
stations.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18937
So clearly you can see where it is going.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18938
The profits for AM station, average per year, is $118,000 versus FM is
$659,000.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18939
Now, we are not interested in the profitability here, but we are
interested in the viability of the service. But I only mention the profits because
the profits are commensurate with the kind of audience that is there and the
number of audience and the demographic of the audience. That is where it's
going.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18940
I think the discussion, the AM versus FM, and the majority of the
audience and that our audience and CKNW's audience is still on AM, and it is a
big part of the audience, is no different than the discussion that happens on
the TV side where the majority of the people at home still have analog
sets, But they are going to be left
in the dust pretty soon as we move to digital because that's where the industry
is going.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18941
When we look at the future and the viability of the national radio
service and the local radio service, we feel that FM is where we need to be
because that is where the audience will be; that is where the audience is
today.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18942
THE CHAIRPERSON: All
right. I don't want to rehash the
entire application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18943
MR. MICHEL:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18944
THE CHAIRPERSON: I know that
those are the national statistics.
You have made your point.
But I am also taking a look at what is going on in Vancouver, what is the
scene with respect to spectrum in Vancouver, and we will take all those into
consideration in our deliberations.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18945
Thank you very much for your application, your time. You have made it very, very interesting
for us.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18946
MR. MICHEL: Thank you, Madam
Chair, Commissioners.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18947
MR. CARNOVALE: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18948
THE SECRETARY: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18949
We will now hear 902890 Alberta.
‑‑‑ Pause
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
LISTNUM
1 \l 18950
MR. DHILLON: Thank you,
Madam Chair, Commissioners and staff.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18951
We are pleased to provide our reply to Rogers' intervention, dated
February 22, 2008.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18952
We have been pondering technical reasons for this objection by Rogers
since their letter was received on January 22nd and now on February
22nd.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18953
We think that, in general, FM radio service coverage is to enclose a
prime location such as a populated area like Vancouver within the prime contour
of three point millivolt unless it is for regional
coverage.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18954
We are fully aware that all the technical applications should follow
BPRs. However, they are all
man‑made. Flexibility of BPR
application may bring more benefits to all concerned. We believe that minor mutual
interference in services could result with mutual
tolerance.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18955
No matter how we try to revise current CIRP‑FM technical parameters, it
comes to a conclusion that the current parameters are deemed suitable for best
utilization of this channel 254B in Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18956
In regards to Rogers' statement that our application was examined by
Industry Canada in 2005, we would like to state to the contrary, that our file
was never examined in 2005 by Industry Canada.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18957
CIUC‑FM, channel 253, sees planning to cover only part of the major
Vancouver area in .5 millivolt contour from Victoria or any site on Vancouver
Island as deemed technically and economically inefficient.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18958
Their maximum CIUC's FM .5 millivolt contour does not touch any part of
the Mainland.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18959
Based on our BPR 350 program calculation, it falls short by approximately
360 metres off Tsawwassen and Sechelt.
For these reasons, we strongly urge the Commission to accept Industry
Canada's suggestion:
"The use of channel 254A in
Vancouver has the potential to provide limited radio broadcasting service in the
spectrum congested Vancouver market and ought not to be excluded for possible
use."
LISTNUM
1 \l 18960
Also quote:
"It is also felt that as the city of
Vancouver does not fall within CIUC's FM primary coverage zone, Rogers continued
objection to the Vancouver proposal unduly constrains the use of possible
frequency in Vancouver."
LISTNUM
1 \l 18961
Even Industry Canada has stated in the letter dated February 18th that
our proposal fully protects CIUC's FM actual coverage contour over Canadian
territory.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18962
So therefore, as Industry Canada has recommended, so therefore we are
requesting to the Commission that the objection be overruled and we be granted a
licence to use the frequency 98.7 FM channel 254B or A in
Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18963
Thank you, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18964
THE CHAIRPERSON: Our legal
counsel, Ms Pinsky, has a question.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18965
MS PINSKY: I would just like
to clarify the information that you provided ‑‑ that you filed for us in
response to an undertaking that you took with respect to the amount of news that
you will have in your programming.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18966
The figure that you provided for us includes a combination of the news,
weather, sports and traffic, and we were asking you to separate out the amount
of pure news.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18967
So what percentage of the total amount of seven hours and 55 minutes
would be the news only?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18968
MR. DHILLON: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18969
I have provided a revised letter stating the difference between the news
and the surveillance reports.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18970
MS PINSKY: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18971
Just for the purpose of the transcript, could you provide that number,
please?
LISTNUM
1 \l 18972
MR. DHILLON: It is 90 per
cent news.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18973
MS PINSKY: Thank you very
much.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18974
MR. DHILLON: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18975
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
very much for your very succinct reply.
Again, thank you for your application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18976
MR. DHILLON: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18977
THE SECRETARY: I would now
ask Jim Pattison Broadcast Group to come to the presentation
table.
‑‑‑ Pause
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
LISTNUM
1 \l 18978
MR. ARNISH: Good afternoon,
Madam Chair and Members of the Commission.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18979
First, Madam Chair, I would like to follow up on items from our
appearance in Phase I of this proceeding.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18980
For the record, we have filed a budget in relation to our Save the Music
Foundation CCD commitment, which confirms that every dollar of that commitment
will go to the purchase of music instruments for schools and there is no
administrative or overhead costs associated with that
initiative.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18981
We also would like to clarify a discussion point from our appearance in
Phase I.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18982
There was a brief discussion on the level of hits which would be aired by
our AAA format on The Peak. In our
filed application we clearly identified our music as 60 per cent new music and
40 per cent from the 80s and 90s and the early half of this
decade.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18983
Therefore, our airing of hits will be virtually zero according to the
Commission's definition of hits.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18984
Turning to the interventions, we want to express our appreciation to the
artists, community groups, charitable organizations, advertisers and listeners
who took time to write letters of support for our
application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18985
I would also express our sincere appreciation to the appearing
interveners who took time to speak with you on behalf of us in support of our
new FM licence being issued to the Pattison Broadcast Group for Vancouver for
The Peak.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18986
We also wish to acknowledge the comments made in the hearing by a number
of other applicants who supported awarding us the 100.5 FM frequency for our AM
to FM conversion as being, to quote Newcap, "a logical step for the Commission
to take to create more choices in the Vancouver market".
LISTNUM
1 \l 18987
They recognized that we were the only commercial applicant the signal is
available to.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18988
In the intervention phase it became clear that there is some work to be
done to sort out the best use of the 104.1 FM frequency. The Commission has no such issues or
competing positions with the 100.5 FM
frequency.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18989
We have spent the last year working with our consultants, Industry Canada
and impacted services so that we could appear before you with a clear
opportunity to make the 100.5 FM frequency available in the Vancouver market for
our AM to FM conversion. There were
no technical impediments to improving our application for the 100.5
FM.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18990
We are anxious to move forward with our conversion and we are ready and
willing and able to move forward quickly to add the highly sought AAA format to
the Vancouver market.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18991
You have a number of fine applications before you for the 104.1 FM
frequency, including ours. More
importantly to us, you have one eligible applicant for the use of the 100.5 FM
frequency in this proceeding, and we hope you will provide us with the
opportunity to bring Peak FM and all the additional benefits it will bring to
the city of Vancouver on 100.5.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18992
It is the best and only use of this frequency for the Vancouver
market.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18993
On behalf of the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group, I want to thank you, Madam
Chair, for running a fair and efficient hearing and I want to express our
appreciation to the Commission and to the
staff.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18994
And also we want to single out as well the court reporter who was very
helpful to us during this week as well in running this hearing here in
Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18995
While this is a competitive process, we respect and appreciate the
efforts of all who have appeared before you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18996
Thank you very much.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18997
THE CHAIRPERSON: Likewise,
we thank you for your participation and thanks for your
application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 18998
THE SECRETARY: I will now
ask the applicant Nirenderjit Pataria to come to the presentation
table.
‑‑‑ Pause
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
LISTNUM
1 \l 18999
MR. SUNNER: Good
afternoon.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19000
It has been a great pleasure and an honour to be here sitting in front of
the CRTC. This was our first
application and I would like to thank everyone that was involved in supporting
this application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19001
Really, that's about it.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM
1 \l 19002
THE CHAIRPERSON: That was
very short.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19003
MR. SUNNER: Pretty
short. I haven't really got much to
say.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19004
THE CHAIRPERSON: No, that's
fine.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19005
MR. SUNNER: Unless you guys
want to ask any questions.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19006
THE CHAIRPERSON:
No.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19007
Oh, Commissioner Williams...?
LISTNUM
1 \l 19008
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is
that your van parked out in the street?
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM
1 \l 19009
MR. SUNNER: It is, and I
drove it all the way from Richmond.
‑‑‑ Laughter/ Rires
LISTNUM
1 \l 19010
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19011
MR. SUNNER: Thank you once
again.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19012
THE CHAIRPERSON: Our legal
counsel does have a question.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19013
MS PINSKY: Yes, thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19014
Just for the sake of the transcript, if we could clarify: In the information that you provided in
response to an undertaking that you took, you separated out the spoken word
component of your proposal and you indicated an amount for Urban
Village.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19015
Should that amount be multiplied by five
times?
LISTNUM
1 \l 19016
MR. SUNNER: That's
right. It was a typing error. It should have been 75 instead of 15,
which brings our total spoken word to 420.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19017
MS PINSKY: Thank you very
much.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19018
MR. SUNNER: Thank you once
again.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19019
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19020
THE SECRETARY: I would now
ask The Coast 104.1 FM.
‑‑‑ Pause
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
LISTNUM
1 \l 19021
MR. KIRK: Good afternoon,
Madam Chair, Commissioners and Commission staff.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19022
I am Doug Kirk representing The Coast 104.1 FM.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19023
I have just added a couple of extra remarks here, but it won't take too
long.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19024
There were some technical items that flowed from this morning and the CBC
a little earlier that I would just like to comment on before I do a quick
wrap‑up.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19025
First, the Gabriola Island Radio Society had indicated that I think they
had intervened on various applicants, and I just wanted to put on the record
that to our knowledge we have not received any intervention regarding that and
holding 104 for their use in the future.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19026
Second, turning to the CBC, I wanted to clarify a couple of remarks in
Mr. Carnovale's remarks.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19027
I think the third item that he had commented on regarding the use of 98.7
on Gabriola Island, I guess of the five options that he had commented on, that
was the one that he was most happy with and said that it could work. I think the comment was subject to
Rogers and that they thought it would interfere with
Rogers.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19028
In fact, in the materials we filed with you yesterday, in the technical
report that I filed by our consulting engineer, Mr. Moltner, the proposed
contours for 98.7 to serve Nanaimo with a distinct service fully protect Rogers
and would be approvable without Rogers.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19029
And I checked on that point.
So the use of 98.7 will work as we had outlined in our materials and
again fully protecting Rogers in Victoria.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19030
That would also allow the use of 89.1 or the synchronous 88.1 to serve
the Sunshine Coast.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19031
So I am just reiterating our point, I think, that there are other
solutions there that do not require 104.1 if the Commission feels that the AM to
FM conversion of CBU makes sense; that this can all be accomplished. The CBC can get their distinct Nanaimo
transmitter service on 98.7 and the other requirements to serve this Sunshine
Coast can be accomplished on other frequencies.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19032
So I just wanted to ensure that is our position.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19033
Finally, I guess Commissioner Williams and I have been checking out the
AM band and I share your view. In
this hotel certainly the 690 AM signal is by far the best signal on the AM band
in this building. It certainly is
in my room on the east side of the hotel.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19034
I'm sure ‑‑ this is an aside.
But if it was dropped, if the 690 frequency was dropped by the CBC, there
would be at a line‑up of other broadcasters ready to take on that frequency and
use it in the market because it is probably the most superior AM frequency in
the region.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19035
So those are my technical comments.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19036
To legal counsel, I just want to ensure that all our supplementary
materials that flowed from the Phase I had been filed with
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19037
Finally, in combination with John Wright, who is the President of The
Coast 104 FM, we want to take this opportunity to sincerely thank the scores of
Vancouver area residents that offered written letters of support for our
application to provide an R&B Smooth Jazz station for
Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19038
We also want to thank the numerous format specific artists who offered
articulate and passionate support for our proposal and in particular Vancouver
artists Dr. Liesa Norman and Gabriel Mark Hasselbach who appeared before you on
Tuesday.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19039
John and I also want to sincerely register our appreciation to
Chairperson del Val, Commissioners Duncan, Menzies, Williams and Cugini, as well
as the Commission staff. It has
been a very, very taxing week and we think this hearing has been held in a very
professional and fair way to all of us who have been here.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19040
You now have the long and complex process of trying to evaluate these
many applications.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19041
The Coast 104.1 awaits your decision. We look forward with enthusiasm to the
challenge of providing a unique new radio service for
Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19042
Thank you very much for your time.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19043
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
very much for your time.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19044
THE SECRETARY: I would now
ask Evanov Communication to come to the presentation
table.
‑‑‑ Pause
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
LISTNUM
1 \l 19045
MS LAURIGNANO: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19046
Good afternoon, Madam Chair and Commissioners. We thank you for the opportunity to
appear before you during this week and for the proceedings. A special shout‑out to the Commission
staff here and elsewhere who long before this process guide us along the way,
and not just in this process but throughout the year.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19047
This has been a great process in terms of the applicants and the
applications which, in our view, have been really
outstanding.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19048
We are satisfied that we have been able to present our proposal fully and
are sure that you will keep in mind the importance the system places on serving
our youth without whom neither the private nor the public broadcasters will have
listeners in the future.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19049
So we thank you again and we look forward to seeing you
again.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19050
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
very much for your application and your time.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19051
THE SECRETARY: I would ask
In House Communications.
‑‑‑ Pause
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
LISTNUM
1 \l 19052
MR. PAT LOUGH: Madam Chair,
Commissioners, Pat Lough with In House Communications.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19053
I just wanted to take a moment to publicly thank all of our interveners,
both written and oral, over 350 that we received, who felt the importance to
just publicly support our application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19054
Aside from the generic CBC opposition which everyone received, we have
not received any other opposition for our application, but rather applicants
have said that our application would have the least impact on what they have
proposed.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19055
I would like to note that we didn't receive a notification from the
Gabriola Radio Society. So their
comments this morning were just ‑‑ I'm not sure who they were directed
at. It sounded like they were
directed at all of the applications for frequency 104.1, and yet we didn't
receive a notification for that.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19056
We do believe that they have options as a community station to look at
maybe LPFM, something of that nature, which is commonly used for community and
college type stations.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19057
We had an intervener yesterday that was quite colourful and
entertaining. He was a bit of a
surprise to us.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM
1 \l 19058
MR. PAT LOUGH: although we
don't share all of his viewpoints he presented orally, his paper intervention
was quite different. But I guess it
is a good indication. It is a good
indication that our radio service will expand beyond the traditional church
audience and, yes, reach beyond the church attending community and so on and so
forth.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19059
I would like to thank each of you for your time, the CRTC staff for your
time, sacrificing time with your family to spend the week here to hear in
particular my application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19060
Thanks.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19061
COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Just
one comment, Mr. Lough.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19062
It is quite refreshing to know that there are still some applicants who
don't screen their interveners.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19063
Thank you.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM
1 \l 19064
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Commissioner Menzies...?
LISTNUM
1 \l 19065
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: I too
wanted to thank you for your interveners and, if nothing else, you showed the
world that the Christian world is every bit as diverse as the secular
world.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19066
MR. PAT LOUGH: Exactly,
yes.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM
1 \l 19067
COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19068
THE CHAIRPERSON: well, thank
you very much for your time and for your application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19069
MR. PAT LOUGH: You are
welcome.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19070
THE SECRETARY: I would now
ask Rock 95 Broadcasting.
‑‑‑ Pause
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
LISTNUM
1 \l 19071
MR. BINGLEY: Good afternoon,
Madam Chair and Members of the panel.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19072
Someone reminded me this morning that it was exactly 20 years ago today
that we received approval for our first radio licence and I don't know if that
encourages you are not, but I thought I would bring it up.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19073
I would just like to make a couple of
comments.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19074
First, in relation to the many interveners who came to support CBC and
who were opposed to the use of 104.1 FM here in Vancouver, for the public record
I would note that these well‑intentioned individuals were not aware that there
was any other option available to CBC to serve Nanaimo. Specifically, they were unaware of an AM
option.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19075
So to them, for their perspective, use of 104.1 really represented their
last chance. I would respectfully
request that the Commission bear that in mind when making your
decision.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19076
I am also happy to note that CBC has acknowledged that 690 kilohertz
could be used to serve Nanaimo.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19077
I would like to thank you all for your time, your consideration and the
very fine way you have done the line of questioning. It has been very fair. I must say I admire you for your
stamina, as well.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19078
I would also like to comment that Commission staff, as always, have been
very friendly, pleasant and helpful.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19079
Thank you all very much.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19080
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
very much for your time.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19081
THE SECRETARY: I would ask
6851916 Canada Inc.
‑‑‑ Pause
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
LISTNUM
1 \l 19082
MR. HENNESSY: Good
afternoon, Madam Chair del Val, Commissioners and staff. I am Roy Hennessy, the President and
General manager of Vancouver's SHORE 104 FM.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19083
Just one matter of housekeeping.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19084
SHORE 104 also did not receive the intervention from the Gabriola Radio
Society, and there is nothing on the public file to indicate that that
intervention was filed with regards to our application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19085
Now, on behalf of the management team, our shareholders and the advisers
whom we met during the past week, we would like to take a moment on behalf of
the entire team to say thank you.
I'm sure many of our fellow applicants here this afternoon appreciate
very much the professional and civil mood of this week's proceedings which were
conducted in such an open and respectful
manner.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19086
We appreciate the time constraints and the organizational pressures that
you and your staff have been placed under an order to facilitate a hearing of
this size within your timelines. As
important as it is, we believe that this hearing has been more than just the
consideration of numerous proposals for opportunities to expand the choice of
programming available to residents of Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19087
We have also enjoyed the opportunity to engage in discussions and
dialogue with Members of the Commission about a number of critical issues that
face Canada's emerging artists, performers and creative
voices.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19088
We appreciate the proactive role that the Commission has taken this week
in pushing for new opportunities for these artists. We encourage more of this dialogue and
we want to assure you that our new broadcast enterprise seeks to be a voice for
change in this important cultural evolution.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19089
In particular, we would like to acknowledge and express our appreciation
for the diligent work put forth by the staff this week at this hearing. You have been very responsive,
accommodating and supportive of all times.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19090
In addition, if there is anyone in Ottawa listening in online this
afternoon, our gratitude to you as well for the outstanding job that they did in
organizing this hearing in such a timely manner. We do appreciate that this work and the
work involved in preparing for a hearing such as this, it takes a great deal of
effort and you should know that this effort has not gone
unnoticed.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19091
From the perspective of our application, we would like to thank the
interveners and supporters who have the same passion that we do and for their
support. We won't let them
down.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19092
Our work is done now, but yours is ‑‑ I need microphone training I
think, or maybe it's Friday.
Anyway, our work is done for now and yours is about to enter the second
stage, and we will all await the results of your consideration and
deliberation.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19093
But we thank you for your time, your interest and, most of all, for your
understanding of our passion for radio.
Thank you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19094
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Hennessy, for your time and your application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19095
MR. HENNESSY: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19096
THE SECRETARY: I would now
ask Astral Media Radio.
‑‑‑ Pause
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
LISTNUM
1 \l 19097
MS LAFLAMME: Madam Chair,
Members of the Commission, Commission staff, I am Claude Laflamme, Vice
President Corporate and Regulatory Affairs, Astral Media
Radio.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19098
On my right is Ross Davies, Vice‑ President Programming, Astral Media
Radio GP. And on my left is Brad
Phillips, Vice‑President and General Manager, Astral Media GP
Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19099
Madam Chair, we would like to start by sincerely thanking all of the
individuals and organizations that have intervened in support of our
application, including many musical, social, cultural, educational and
aboriginal organizations. We
appreciate their testimonies and hope that the Commission will give us the
opportunity to develop and improve the long‑standing partnerships that we have
already dealt with them.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19100
As you know, Madam Chair, Astral did not intervene against any other
applicants in Phase II and none of the other applicants have intervened against
our proposal. So there are no real
matters to reply to.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19101
But we listened carefully to what was said during Phase II and, with your
permission, we would like to provide a few comments in
response.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19102
MR. DAVIES: We share the
opinion expressed by many interveners that 104.1 frequency should be allocated
to a new private commercial radio station in order to best serve the Vancouver
area.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19103
As we and other applicants have demonstrated, in Vancouver there remain
underserved demographics and formats that are not yet available, including our
new Active AC format with its many innovative spoken word
components.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19104
Furthermore, since a 104.1 frequency is the last quality FM frequency
available in Vancouver, this will be the last chance to introduce further
programming diversity into the private commercial radio landscape, the last
chance to add new, local and live musical and spoken word content while
generating millions of dollars in CCD commitments that would not otherwise be
available to Canadian talent from B.C.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19105
Many of the interveners have suggested that there are numerous
alternative solutions that will allow CBC, who well serve Nanaimo, other than
the use of 104.1. As our engineers
did not specifically analyze these options, we cannot comment on
them.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19106
But we would like to suggest that even if there is no other technical
solution for CBC in Nanaimo, we strongly believe that the best use of 104.1
would be its allocation to a new private commercial radio station, specifically
to our Active Easy Rock proposal which will provide unique, innovative and
diverse programming to a clearly unsatisfied demographic.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19107
Considering the scarcity of frequency still available in Canada's third
largest urban area, it is, in our view, the best option in meeting both the
mandate and the spirit of public policy.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19108
MR. PHILLIPS: During Phase I
the Commission asked every applicant which other application would be most
complementary should they be granted a licence. After listening carefully to all
applicants, we believe that should the Commission choose to grant a licence for
a new station on the 104.1 frequency to Active Easy Rock, the simultaneous
granting of Pattison's application to convert its AM station to the FM band will
provide a number of significant market advantages.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19109
First, it will establish a very healthy and dynamic level playing field
among the five major private radio groups in the
market.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19110
Given that Corus, CTVGM and Rogers currently enjoy a combo of FM stations
while Astral and Pattison each have one AM and one FM station, if Pattison flips
its AM station to FM and Astral is granted a second licence for a new station a
104.1, each of the five Vancouver radio groups will, for the first time, be on a
level playing field, each operating two FM stations.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19111
In terms of fair compensation, there could be no more ideal
situation. This market correction
will force each of these broadcasters to outdo themselves, to be innovative and
hypersensitive to the needs of their listeners and to the community they serve
in order to maintain market share in what would be, for the first time,
perfectly balanced competitive market conditions.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19112
This would be to the benefit of all Vancouver radio listeners as well as
the Canadian music industry.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19113
Another advantage will be that both the new and the converted FM stations
will be operated by experienced locally grounded and financially sound
broadcasters who have the expertise to succeed with these two stations in this
highly competitive market.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19114
Finally, in accepting both the Astral proposal and the Pattison flip, the
Commission will generate $21 million in CCD commitments, the bulk of this $21
million dedicated to emerging artists.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19115
It goes without saying that this is a significant amount of money that
will have very tangible long‑term benefits and, as we have previously mentioned,
this may be the last chance to generate this kind of extraordinary CCD financing
from the private radio industry in Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19116
This is money that will strongly support B.C. music and artists,
not‑for‑profit broadcasters, as well as students in journalism and broadcasting
well into the future. This support
is a key consideration which we respectfully urge you to consider when rendering
your decision.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19117
MS LAFLAMME: That concludes
our participation in this hearing.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19118
We would like to thank the Commission for the time spent listening to all
applicants and interveners. In our
opinion, this hearing was very instructive and was respectfully managed in good
faith and with great care.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19119
We would be happy, of course, to answer any additional questions that you
may have.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19120
Thank you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19121
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
very much, panel, for your time.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19122
THE SECRETARY: I would ask
Harvard Broadcasting to come to the presentation table.
‑‑‑ Pause
REPLY /
RÉPLIQUE
LISTNUM
1 \l 19123
MR. COWIE: Madam chair,
Members of the Commission, Commission staff, thank you for this opportunity to
have one more short chat with you before we leave for points
elsewhere.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19124
For the record, I am Bruce Cowie, Vice‑President and General Manager of
Harvard Broadcasting.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19125
At the table with me today are Michael Olstrom, Harvard Station Group
Manager; Karen Broderick, who is responsible for Harvard's national sales; Debra
McLaughlin of Strategic Inc.; and Rob Malcolmson, our legal counsel from
Goodmans LLP.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19126
At the outset, we would like to acknowledge the over 200 quality
interventions that were filed in support of adding JANE's independent Western
voice to Vancouver radio. These
interventions, as well as the support we received during our focus groups, and
when we prevented JANE to Vancouverites at a community open house, speak
eloquently to the need for innovative programming and new editorial diversity in
Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19127
The purpose of our appearance today is to address two issues. These arose during the course of the
hearing.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19128
While none of the competing applicants intervened against our proposal to
bring JANE to Vancouver, two applicants, Pattison and 6851916, did raise issues
in their presentations in‑chief to which we wish to reply
now.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19129
Pattison has applied to convert its AM station to FM and for a new FM
licence at 104.1. Both applications
propose a AAA format. During their
presentation in‑chief, the Pattison group argued that their proposal was the
best use of the spectrum and would add a new voice to the
market.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19130
We take no position on the relative merits of the Pattison proposal, but
what we would like to state for the record is that the approval of Pattison's
AAA conversion at 100.5 and Harvard's application at 104.1 should not be
considered mutually exclusive.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19131
In our view, approval of the Pattison application of 100.5 should not
mean that Harvard's proposal for 104.1 is denied.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19132
Why Vancouver West is so important to us is it is Canada's largest radio
market in the West and without it we simply would not be able to achieve the
critical mass that is necessary for us to emerge as a stronger western editorial
voice.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19133
Again, why is it so important to Harvard to be in
Vancouver?
LISTNUM
1 \l 19134
Because this licence will double the reach of Harvard's radio stations
from the current level of 1.4 million to 3.4 million people. This critical mass is absolutely
essential to our growth strategy and our role within the Canadian broadcasting
system.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19135
Unlike others at this hearing, Harvard has no ambitions to become a
national broadcaster. We believe
there are already more than enough national radio
conglomerates.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19136
Instead, our goal has always been to offer a distinct western regional
broadcast voice with stations in small and large markets from Manitoba west to
Vancouver. We believe that through
this approach we can be an innovator in programming NCCD, while at the same time
adding a distinct western voice to the radio scene in each of the markets we
serve.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19137
So if you decide to approve Pattison's conversion to FM, we will adjust
accordingly. We believe we can
bring JANE into this market and compete quite successfully with Pattison's AAA
offering. JANE is distinct, as the
other AAA applicants have acknowledged.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19138
JANE will be a voice for Vancouver's single largest population cohort,
women aged 35 to 54. JANE will be a
voice that does not exist in this market today.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19139
Having now heard all of the applications, and in particular the
descriptions of the various AAA formats, we are convinced that JANE can stand
alone, even if you were to approve Pattison's AM to FM conversion or indeed
against any of the other AAA applicants.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19140
Madam Chair, Commissioners, Harvard is prepared to invest the time and
the resources required to succeed in Vancouver radio because this market is
absolutely essential to our growth and development as a Western regional‑based
broadcaster.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19141
Karen...?
LISTNUM
1 \l 19142
MS BRODERICK: Thanks,
Bruce.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19143
During their presentation in‑chief representatives of 6851916 described
our share projections as a stratospheric, thereby calling into question our
revenue projections as well.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19144
The methods we use in formulating our projections have always been proven
to be accurate. We used the same
methods in our Calgary application and they have proven to be correct in our
launch forecast and beyond.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19145
The projected eight share at maturity reflects the very high level of
demand for a new voice, new music and a new approach to programming that we
found in the Vancouver market.
There is a strong appetite for something new and our projections reflect
this.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19146
Over 80 per cent of our target audience stated that they would listen to
JANE. We correlated our projections
to the responses of interest to the music format and came up with similar
numbers.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19147
We looked at the performance of stations like ALICE in the U.S., female
morning shows, female skewing stations across Canada and the track record of new
stations.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19148
We also had the perfect proxy for a stand‑alone station in Vancouver with
The Beat. It launched at a 3.2
share and as of last fall was posting an 8.3 share. The Beat did this despite targeting a
much smaller audience base than JANE and despite being a stand‑alone station in
a highly competitive market.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19149
We also note that in a much more competitive market like Toronto, with
the strong U.S. and Canadian spill services complicating the market, stations
even less strongly branded as female services than JANE pull in comparable or
better shares. The conclusion one
has to draw from all of this is that the shares are reasonable and
achievable.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19150
We also confirmed our top‑down approach by building our model from the
ground up. Using rate cards
obtained from incumbent broadcasters through local and national agencies, we
knew precisely what the market was selling for and what rates the agencies were
applying for Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19151
We estimated our ratings based on projected shares for each day part,
created a market entry unit rate and multiplied this by our anticipated sold
units. We have an average sell
outright of 46 per cent over our entire schedule for the first year based on the
average number of minutes sold in the market.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19152
Our unit rates averaged $75 per 30‑second spot. To put this into perspective, six years
ago when The Beat launched in this market its average unit rate was
$80.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19153
The support we received from advertisers and media buyers in the
intervention process was overwhelming.
Advertisers, including some of the largest agencies in Canada, and media
buyers from Vancouver agencies have reviewed our programming, our audience
shares and our unit rates. They
wrote letters of support because they believe JANE FM can meet their
goals.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19154
In summary, when one reviews the data objectively, the question is not
why our audience shares and revenues are higher than other applicants, the real
question is why, if the demand is so great for other proposed formats, are other
applicants' revenues not reflective of what a successful service should generate
in this growing market.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19155
MR. COWIE: Thank you,
Karen.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19156
Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, Commission staff, we would like
to congratulate you on a great hearing, managed very well, touched with humour,
particularly yesterday, and a very difficult road for you to go down now to try
to figure all of this out.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19157
But I think at the end of the day what you will bring forward is
something new and exciting for this market and a good solid use of what is left
of 104.1.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19158
Thank you so much and congratulations again on your great
work.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19159
THE CHAIRPERSON: Legal
counsel has a question.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19160
MS PINSKY: Yes. I just would like to clarify for the
record, in your response the additional information you provided in response to
an undertaking that you took, you clarified that your application proposes a
Category 3 music level of 20 per cent.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19161
I would just like to ask what your comment would be in response to
adhering to that level by way of a condition of licence?
LISTNUM
1 \l 19162
MR. COWIE:
Yes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19163
MS PINSKY: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19164
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
for your application and your time.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19165
THE SECRETARY: I would now
ask Vista Radio Ltd.
‑‑‑ Pause
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
LISTNUM
1 \l 19166
MS MICALLEF: Good
afternoon. My name is Margot
Micallef and I am the Chair and CEO of Vista Radio.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19167
With me is Brian Edwards, our Vice‑ Chair, and Jason Mann, our
Vice‑President Programming.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19168
First, we would like to start by thanking all of the interveners who
filed comments in support of our application, and we do have some comments in
respect to some comments that were made during the
proceedings.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19169
A number of applicants have characterized vista's proposed format as an
oldies‑based format. It is
not.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19170
Our application uses the term 70s based AC to describe the format we
propose. We used the term
oldies‑based only once in our application and that is to clarify what our format
is not. We used the term 70s based
AC no less than 42 times in our application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19171
The term oldies‑based was not used in the research conducted for Vista;
the term 70s based AC was used.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19172
Vista's 70s based AC format for the core of 45 to 54 demographic was
transcribed as an oldies format in the Vancouver Notice of Hearing. We can only conclude that a very young
CRTC employee translated 45 to 54 as "Oldies".
LISTNUM
1 \l 19173
The reference to oldies was again picked up by the Astral panel when they
described Vista's format.
Considering the youthful appearance of the Astral panel, we are surprised
that they would have described a core demographic of 45 to 54 as
"Oldies".
LISTNUM
1 \l 19174
MR. JASON MANN: Further, by
characterizing Vista's format as oldies, Astral concluded that our music supply
would be limited to 400 songs. As
we indicated in our presentation, that number is closer to 1,200 and we will
walk you through our calculation.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19175
The 70s comprise 60 per cent of the sound or percentage of spins of our
format. Given the hit/non‑hit
policy, 44 per cent will be drawn from a pool of music that would qualify as hit
material.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19176
Therefore, 16 per cent of material from the 70s would be drawn from the
non‑hit album cuts. Of the 44 per
cent of material drawn from the 70s that would qualify as hits, we believe there
is easily a base of 450 songs. This
equates to just 45 songs per year of that decade that would fit the sound of
CFM.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19177
There is a plethora of excellent non‑hit material from the 70s that no
longer receives airplay, including album cuts and B sides like James Taylor's
"Mexico" and the Carpenters "Baby It's You". While these songs may not qualify as
hits, they certainly are familiar and beloved by many.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19178
The 70s was the era of the long play record and it was not unusual for
music lovers to regularly play albums from front to
back.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19179
Further, past CRTC hit/non‑hit regulations created an environment where
many of these songs have been frequently played on the radio, creating
familiarity. Vista believes the 16
per cent non‑hit material drawn from the 70s will fit within the overall premise
of the 70s based AC format.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19180
In fact, the reintroduction of many of these songs will not only be
welcomed but also further differentiate the station from the incumbents. The 70s album cut category size will
easily be a further 125 songs.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19181
Music drawn from the 60s will represent 5 per cent of the station's sound
or spins and will consist of only the most compatible music of the 60s. The 60s category size will easily be a
further 125 songs.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19182
Music drawn from the 80s and 90s will represent 5 per cent each of the
station's sound or spins. The 80s
and 90s categories, together, will again easily total a further 300
songs.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19183
Of the music played from the current decade, there will be three
categories, in total representing 25 per cent of the station's sound or
spins. Amongst the three categories
there will easily be an additional 120 songs or more. In total, the CFM active library will
therefore easily consist of over 1,100 songs.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19184
MS MICALLEF: A number of
applicants have raised the matter of the expected percentage of the Vancouver
CMA that 104.1 can cover. Fifty per
cent was mentioned by the CBC, 56 per cent by Newcap, 65 per cent by Astral and
90 per cent by Rock 95.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19185
Vista is well aware of the perceived limitations of 104.1. We have taken them into account on two
fronts in our application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19186
First, we planned for 9,000 watts for our station. That is 1,000 watts more than any other
applicant. Vista's 3 and .5
millivolt theoretical coverage pattern is therefore somewhat different from the
coverage of the other applicants.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19187
Vista will likely reach as much as 90 per cent of Vancouver, particularly
when the ability of today's receivers to filter interference is taken into
consideration.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19188
Second, we took the coverage limitations into account in our projections,
including in the establishment of our projected market share of 4 per cent
overall and 7 per cent of the 35 to 64 demographic in year one, and 5 per cent
overall and 8 per cent of the 35 to 64 demographic in year
seven.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19189
There has been discussion about the share of the market each applicant
can expect given the core demographic each proposes to target. And incumbents such as CHQM may achieve
a 9.9 share in the 35 to 64 demographic or JACK FM an 8.1
share.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19190
They don't, however, like CFM will do, program specifically to the 45 to
54 demographic. Rather, their cores
fall toward the younger end of that broader demographic.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19191
It is therefore imprecise to compare CHQM's and JACK FM's share of the 35
to 64 demographic with CFM's expected 7 per cent share since CFM's core market
is, unlike JACK FM's and CHQM's, the 45 to 54 demographic.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19192
Therefore, given CFM's targeted demographic, CFM's projected 7 per cent
share of 35 to 64 is entirely realistic and even
conservative.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19193
We are going to deviate from our script somewhat here to address some
more recent remarks.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19194
With respect to the intervention filed by Music B.C., we were persuaded
by Mr. D'Eith's comments and encouraged by his reference to the fact that Music
B.C. has a relationship with FACTOR.
FACTOR has advised us that they fully intend to work with Music B.C. and
other similar B.C. based organizations to disperse the Vista FACTOR monies to
B.C. musicians and in particular to emerging artists in
B.C.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19195
FACTOR has explained to us how they have worked with Music B.C. in the
past and their practice in awarding funds.
We are satisfied that between FACTOR and their reliance on Music B.C.,
the Vista funds will easily be dispersed to B.C. musicians and emerging
artists.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19196
Jason can explain the procedure by which FACTOR has advised us they would
work with Music B.C. and how they have done so in the past, if the Commission
would desire that information.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19197
Further, we would like to comment with respect to remarks that were made
most recently by CBC.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19198
First, regarding CBC's confusion as to the level of impairment that we
would suffer, as we have indicated in our intervention, that level of impairment
would be with respect to our Ladysmith territory.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19199
Relative to the market that we serve through that station, that is a very
small impairment. Our consulting
engineer has considered the implications of this proposal on the perspective
frequencies that are being sought in Chilliwack and is confident that there will
be no interference.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19200
Finally, it is not for us to say what the Commission will have to do
regarding decisions or delays. We
stand by our proposal to work with CBC's engineers to determine the viability of
this proposal, although, as we have indicated, we are quite confident in its
feasibility.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19201
We also stand by our earlier position that we will be in a position to
file a full technical brief by the end of March or
mid‑April.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19202
There was one reference made earlier, as well, with respect to 98.7 and
we have some concerns that that signal may in fact interfere with our Courtenay
signal which is 98.9.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19203
Those are our remarks and we would be happy to answer any
questions.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19204
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Ms Micallef.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19205
We don't have any more questions and we thank you for your time and your
application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19206
MS MICALLEF: Thank
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19207
Let me just end on two final points, then.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19208
First, in the event that Astral is awarded this licence and Mr. Parisien
makes good on his promise to relocate to Vancouver, my mother has agreed to rent
him a room.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM
1 \l 19209
MS MICALLEF: Second, we
would like to thank the Commission and the staff for everything that has
occurred this week. It has been a
very long week and I now fully understand the difference between Adult
Contemporary and Oldies. You all
look very contemporary and I feel like an oldie.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19210
Thank you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19211
THE SECRETARY: I would now
ask Newcap to come to the presentation table.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM
1 \l 19212
THE SECRETARY: Please
introduce yourself. You have 10
minutes.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19213
Thank you.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
LISTNUM
1 \l 19214
MR. MURRAY: Thank you, Madam
Chair.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19215
For the record, my name is David Murray.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19216
I would like to thank everyone who was involved in or supported our
application, first of all.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19217
You have heard a number of consistent themes this week. You have heard that there are clear
opportunities in Vancouver for a diverse new musical based format. Our proposed Adult Urban format is the
best choice and the passion for this format best complements the limited
coverage of 104.1.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19218
You have heard that intelligent strong news and other spoken word
programming can complement the music and contribute to Vancouver's rich cultural
diversity. Newcap's 23 hours of
spoken word programming and specific diversity initiatives will do just
that.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19219
You have heard that this market, currently dominated by Canada's major
broadcasters, calls out for a new independent editorial voice. We agree and we are clearly your best
assurance of a sustainable new editorial voice over the long‑term. Vancouver truly is a fiercely
competitive market and one of the most expensive Canadian markets to operate
in. The major broadcasters dominate
over 70 per cent of the share of hours tuned and have multiple media
holdings.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19220
Compounding this market challenge is the fact that 104.1 is an impaired
frequency, reaching only 56 per cent of the 2.5 million Greater Vancouver
residents who would typically be reached by the existing Vancouver
stations.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19221
Given this, business plans that depend on attaining a market share of
greater than 3 per cent at any point over the first licence term must be viewed
by the Commission as highly suspect and anything over 5 per cent is simply not
credible.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19222
It is simple math. A 5 per
cent share of Greater Vancouver translates into an 8 or 9 per cent share of the
Vancouverites served by 104.1. That
would put the new station in the top three.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19223
It's nice to aspire to be in the top three. We all shoot for it. But to build your business plan on it is
just not reasonable.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19224
Newcap's business plan represents the best use of 104.1 and is one of the
few realistic plans before you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19225
In addition to our very solid business plan, I can't emphasize enough the
importance of our B.C. breakout initiative. For the first time since the youthful
days of FM radio in the early to late 70s, local bands are getting significant
commercial radio airplay in this country courtesy of Newcap's CCD commitments in
Ottawa and Calgary.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19226
Literally hundreds of independent local bands are being given the chance
to break out onto the national music scene in Canada, again, all courtesy of
recent CCD commitments from Newcap.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19227
The energy and tremendous groundswell of optimism emerging from the
Canadian music scene today is palpable and is real.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19228
Newcap Radio is harnessing that energy. We are bridging the gap between supply
and demand. We are launching
careers and we are quite literally changing lives.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19229
With our B.C. breakout initiative, we are asking for the privilege of
doing the same thing for the hundreds and thousands of talented aspiring
musicians in B.C. and Vancouver markets.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19230
In our Phase I appearance we were asked: How important is this Vancouver licence
to your company into your overall plan to expand into British Columbia? I'm here to tell you that this market is
very important to us and it is the reason we are appearing before
you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19231
You might not know that half of our radio stations are already in western
Canada.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19232
In the words of VOCM's Gerry Phelan who appeared with me earlier this
week, Newcap would love to be the first private radio broadcaster to join Rick
Hansen and Steve Fonyo in completing the coast‑to‑coast journey begun by Terry
Fox.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19233
However, we all know this process is not about poetry or what is best for
Newcap or any broadcaster for that matter.
This hearing is about what is most in the public
interest.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19234
So if you think the public is looking for a new independent editorial
voice for Vancouver with the strength and perseverance to serve and survive for
the long term, we believe they are looking for Newcap.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19235
If you believe the public is looking for an applicant with the experience
to provide high‑quality local news content and 23 hours of spoken word
programming and can share relevant stories among stations from coast to coast,
and if you think the public is looking for a proven CCD initiative like
B.C. Breakout that is already
producing stars and changing lives in Ottawa and Calgary and, if expanded into
Vancouver, will create the critical mass to make this a national blockbuster
initiative, the public is looking for Newcap.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19236
If there is any doubt as to who is best equipped to bring all of these
benefits to the public, the answer is Newcap.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19237
To close, Madam Chair and Members, we wish to thank you again for
considering our application and thank both you and the Commission staff for
running a very fair and very effective hearing.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19238
We look forward to your decision.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19239
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
very much, Mr. Cowie, for your time and your application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19240
THE SECRETARY: I would now
ask Touch Canada Broadcasting.
‑‑‑ Pause
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
LISTNUM
1 \l 19241
MR. HUNSPERGER: Madam Chair,
Commissioners, staff members, from one of the smaller broadcasting companies in
this room, but, if you have noticed, from one of the broadcasting companies that
has the longest applicant name, out‑beating the Pattison Group, we would like to
thank all of you, those that have intervened in support for our application,
particularly those who made presentations before you
yesterday.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19242
While we didn't appear for Phase II on this proceeding, Touch Canada
fully endorses the views expressed by other applicants regarding the CBC
proposal. We believe that there are
other solutions available to the CBC and that 104.1 would be better utilized in
Vancouver rather than Nanaimo.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19243
Madam Chair, Commissioners, CRTC staff, we would like to thank you for
your very thorough and thoughtful manner in which this hearing has been
conducted.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19244
We wish you good luck in the remaining phases of this hearing and a safe
journey home next week.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19245
Thank you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19246
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Hunsperger, for your time and your application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19247
THE SECRETARY: I would now
ask 0785330 B.C. Ltd.
‑‑‑ Pause
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
LISTNUM
1 \l 19248
MR. BADH: And the first
shall be last.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19249
Good afternoon, Commissioners.
I am here with my partner Jim McLaughlin, Liz Janik and Jaspreet
Gill.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19250
We are here to reply to the written and oral interventions to our
application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19251
Jim...?
LISTNUM
1 \l 19252
MR. McLAUGHLIN: We note the
interventions by many of the other applicants to the CBC and agree with them
that there are other solutions for the CBC, and we will leave our attack on the
mother court there.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19253
In Phase I, 6851916 Canada Inc., known as SHORE‑FM ‑‑ I will
continue to refer to them as SHORE, if you don't mind ‑‑ raised questions
about the wisdom of our inclusion of Category 3 music, our projected market
share and therefore our revenues.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19254
We cannot agree with them.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19255
They challenged the research provided by one of Canada's foremost radio
researchers, David Oakes. David
reviewed 29 different music styles and seven formats to come to his
conclusion.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19256
So on what does SHORE‑FM base their certainty that such a mix is not
viable?
LISTNUM
1 \l 19257
Well, the research filed with their application asked a total of 13
questions and one about format.
They did not ask listeners about their interest in a wide variety of
music styles. Therefore, they did
not discover the high demand for an Adult Alternative format which features
specialty music styles.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19258
SHORE told you that our share projections were not realistic and
certainly not for a AAA station. We
are confident that our projections are very
realistic.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19259
Interestingly enough, their own share projections are remarkably similar
to ours in the first years. We have
provided you a chart that compares their share projections to
ours.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19260
Our numbers in the first three years are very similar. We based our projections on Mr. Oakes'
research and actually reduced them slightly to be prudent.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19261
SHORE‑FM did not show any research rationale to support their
attack.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19262
Even if we only reached the shares that they project, we are a viable
station. We have provided a
spreadsheet that shows our restated revenue and profit if we only drew the
shares projected by SHORE for themselves.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19263
In this most pessimistic scenario we will still provide a return that
makes this a worthwhile endeavour.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19264
You have heard from a number of applicants that turning to radio has
declined in this market, and you asked interveners yesterday and today why this
is so, particularly amongst the younger people. We believe that a significant reason is
that radio is not offering listeners the format choices that match their actual
interest.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19265
The sameness of formats arises from the practice of using industry charts
to determine the safe songs to play, meaning the ones that make it to the top of
the airplay charts. With
consolidation in the industry there has been a move among some broadcasters to
make centralized corporate decisions about which songs are played. So the majority of programmers are not
watching local retail and they are not plugged into the streets to find the
latest buzz.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19266
Our inclusion of Category 3 music is based on identified listener needs
and, contrary to SHORE‑FM's claims, is very viable.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19267
Liz...?
LISTNUM
1 \l 19268
MS JANIK: We were able to
identify the listeners' needs by using David Oakes' comprehensive reliable
research. These listeners ‑‑
he found a large demand in Vancouver for an Adult Alternative radio station
whose listeners share a common interest in Category 3 music
styles.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19269
Specifically, 100 per cent of The Planet's core listeners said that they
wanted to hear blues on the new radio station; 82 per cent said that they wanted
to hear reggae; 81 per cent said folk; and 68 per cent agreed that they wanted
to hear world beat played on the radio in
Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19270
The common denominator among these listeners is that they want to hear
this eclectic mix of Category 3 music styles with Adult Alternative
music.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19271
We agree with some of the other applicants who has said that Vancouver
can support more than one AAA station.
This is certainly the case in many markets throughout the United
States. In particular, you could
look at Santa Fe with a population of less than 100,000 people, which has three
Adult Alternative radio stations.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19272
Contrary to the comments made by SHORE, the assertion that we would not
be able to launch successfully and that we would not reach our projected shares,
this is simply not true.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19273
I can say this to you because I have worked with research such as David
Oakes' research, and in fact with David Oakes, in many major American markets
creating radio station formats that were new to the market based on quality
information, reliable information about what listeners really want and combined
with the courage of owners to try an original format.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19274
Therefore, I am completely confident that The Planet will succeed as
Vancouver's new Adult Alternative.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19275
MR. BADH: Thanks,
Liz.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19276
Commissioners, Astral and Harvard both stated that the Commission should
be careful and licensing an independent since it would be very possible that
they could sell out in short order and disappear.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19277
The Beat was sold within the first term of licence.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19278
With respect, Commissioners, we do not believe that example is applicable
to us. They had financial problems
right off the bat. This is not an
issue for us. We plan to be players
in this industry for years to come.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19279
There are many successful independent broadcasters across Canada. Here are but a few
examples.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19280
Pineridge Broadcasting in Cobourg has operated in a difficult,
competitive situation for many, many years. Paul Larche has survived and flourished
as a stand‑alone operator in a number of markets. Haliburton Broadcasting is doing very
well in Northern Ontario. Milestone
has now been operating for a term of licence as a stand‑alone station in
Canada's most competitive market, Toronto.
Just up the road from here in Kamloops, NL Broadcasting is also
thriving.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19281
If we look at the big guys, there is no guarantee that they will still be
licensees if you grant them the licence.
A year ago who would have thought Standard Broadcasting would no longer
exist? And who would have thought
CHUM would no longer exist?
LISTNUM
1 \l 19282
Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, there is no guarantee that by
licensing to a large player that the same licensee will be there for licence
renewal.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19283
But there is one guarantee:
If you do not license to an independent, well‑financed, local player, you
will not have a diverse new editorial voice in Vancouver, one that is sensitive
to the multicultural reality of Vancouver.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19284
Jim and I do not have to tell you that we will move to Vancouver; we
already live here.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19285
Finally, I would be remiss not to thank the many people who took time to
write letters to you and the people who took their time out to come here
yesterday morning.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19286
Three local mayors have told you the importance of local ownership and of
my involvement in the community.
Almost 100 multicultural and non‑profit organizations in Vancouver have
told you that they think it is time for a visible minority owner in mainstream
media in this city.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19287
Musicians have told you of the incredible interest in a variety of
special musics, special music styles, including the fusion between styles. As a specialty service by condition of
licence, The Planet cannot change format.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19288
Commissioners, we made this commitment well before Gazette
date.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19289
And the same musicians told you of the value of our proposed CCD
initiatives.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19290
Madam Chair, Commissioners, two years from this date Vancouver will
receive the world to the 2010 Winter Olympics and Paralympics. Vancouver is a diverse city with much to
offer: natural beauty,
multicultural population, with an emerging new mainstream that includes
aboriginal people, East and South Asians and many other ethnic
groups.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19291
We hope that when the world comes to Vancouver, they will be able to
listen to The Planet.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19292
I would like to thank the Commissioners for their patience and thorough
examination of all the applicants at this hearing. Commission staff members have been
extremely helpful, and we would like to thank them as well, including the
examination room staff.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19293
We understand that this is Ms Waugh's first hearing as a Secretary of the
hearing and we congratulate her on a successful debut.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19294
Thank you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19295
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
very much, Mr. Badh and Mr. McLaughlin and the panel, for your time and for your
application.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19296
At this time I believe you are the last applicant and I would just like
to say a word for all of the applicants.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19297
I spent the rest of the hearing since yesterday looking for more
relatives in the audience so that I could slough off more questions to
Commissioner Cugini, but no luck.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19298
I hope my moments of panic up here provided you with moments of humour
and some much deserved moments of relief from your hard
work.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19299
I thank you very, very much for your applications, the courtesy and
patience you have shown to the Commission and the respect you have shown for the
process.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19300
Please pass on the Commission's appreciation to your interveners who came
out to participate and tell them that their contribution is much
felt.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19301
A special thanks to our Commission staff and for the Vancouver leg of the
journey, Mr. Joe Aguiar, Ms Gendron, Ms Pinsky, Mr. Daigle, Mr. Parker and
Cindy‑Lee Scullion and Claude Perrier, and my colleagues and fellow
Commissioners.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19302
We have a very, very difficult decision to make and we know how important
this all is to you, and all of the time and hard work you put into your
application is much appreciated and your submissions are helpful and are
valued.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19303
Thank you.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19304
THE SECRETARY: This
concludes the Vancouver market portion of the hearing.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19305
We will continue next week on Monday, starting at 9:30, with the
Chilliwack market.
LISTNUM
1 \l 19306
Thank you.
‑‑‑ Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1456, to
resume
on Monday, March 3, 2008 at 0930 /
L'audience
est ajournée à 1456, pour
reprendre le lundi
3 mars 2008 à 0930
REPORTERS
____________________ ____________________
Barbara Neuberger Beverley Dillabough
____________________ ____________________
Jean Desaulniers
Fiona Potvin