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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE
THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT
LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
Various broadcasting applications further to calls for
applications for broadcasting licences to carry on radio programming undertakings to serve Owen Sound, Windsor and Peterborough, Ontario /
Plusieurs demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'entreprises de programmation de radio pour desservir Owen Sound, Windsor et Peterborough (Ontario)
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Rooms B, C & D Salons B, C et D
Delta Hotel London Armouries Hôtel Delta London Armouries
325 Dundas Street 325, rue Dundas
London, Ontario London (Ontario)
December 13, 2007 Le 13 décembre 2007
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio‑television and
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
Transcript / Transcription
Various broadcasting applications further to calls for
applications for broadcasting licences to carry on radio programming undertakings to serve Owen Sound, Windsor and Peterborough, Ontario /
Plusieurs demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'entreprises de programmation de radio pour desservir Owen Sound, Windsor et Peterborough (Ontario)
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Rita Cugini Chairperson / Présidente
Peter Menzies Commissioner / Conseiller
Helen del Val Commissioner / Conseillère
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
Cindy Ventura Secretary / Secrétaire
Joe Aguiar Hearing Manager /
Gérant de l'audience
Kelly-Anne Smith Legal Counsel /
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Rooms B C D Salons B C D
Delta Hotel London Armouries Hôtel Delta London Armouries
325 Dundas Street 325, rue Dundas
London, Ontario London (Ontario)
December 13, 2007 Le 13 décembre 2007
- iv -
TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE / PARA
PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:
Andy McNabb (OBCI) 895 / 5499
Anderson Parish Media Inc. 995 / 6211
INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR :
Andy McNabb (OBCI) 1040 / 6479
INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR :
CBC 1042 / 6493
Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs 1050 / 6535
Michael Graham 1059 / 6569
Jack de Keyzer 1066 / 6613
Bill McKay 1071 / 6643
Active Green + Ross 1073 / 6655
- v -
TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE / PARA
REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:
Anderson Parish Media Inc. 1085 / 6753
Andy McNabb (OBCI) 1089 / 6770
Frank Torres (OBCI) 1094 / 6798
Acadia Broadcasting Limited 1097 / 6816
Evanov Communications Inc. 1099 / 6837
K-Rock 1057 Inc. 1103 / 6869
Larche Communications Inc. 1109 / 6898
Newcap Inc. 1111 / 6921
591989 B.C. Ltd. 1113 / 6933
London, Ontario / London (Ontario)
‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Thursday, December 13, 2007
at 0906 / L'audience débute le jeudi
13 décembre 2007 à 0906
LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 54915491 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ladies and gentlemen, good morning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15492 Madam Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15493 THE SECRETARY: We will now proceed with item 15 which is an application by Andy McNabb, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial specialty radio programming undertaking in Kawartha Lakes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15494 The new station would operate on frequency 96.7 MHz (channel 244B1) with a maximum effective radiated power of 4,370 watts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15495 Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Andy McNabb.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15496 Please introduce your ‑‑ I'm sorry.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 15497 THE SECRETARY: You will have 20 minutes for your presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15498 I apologize
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 15499 MR. McNABB: Hello. I'm Andy McNabb, the applicant, and on my left is Andy McNabb, my vice‑president of programming.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 15500 MR. McNABB: To my right is Andy McNabb, my vice‑president of sales.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15501 And had there been any doubt about cloning it's probably disappeared by now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15502 But anyway, thank you, CRTC Commissioners and staff. It's been eight years since I have had the opportunity to appear on the firing line with a bunch of competitors. We are all out for each other's blood it seems right now, but what we hope to do, my goodness, with 10 frequencies identified and various combinations and permutations, I hope a few of us can walk away happy and being able to serve the citizens of the City of Kawartha Lakes and Peterborough for the betterment of the Canadian broadcasting system.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15503 I am focused on the City of Kawartha Lakes. That's the place of my birth. And this city is the result of a year 2000 amalgamation of 33 small towns and villages up in cottage country, about an hour and a half northeast of Toronto, with Lindsay being the population; commercial and political hub of that market, and with 75,000 people being situated in this city that's over 3,000 square kilometres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15504 So just to give you an idea here, just take a look off the City of Kawartha Lakes website. That's 100 kilometres north to south, 45 kilometres east to west. That's a lot of territory. Now, compare that to the City of Peterborough which has approximately 75,000 people, and the City of Peterborough is nicely condensed in 58 square kilometres. So you can understand why the biggest and best signal needs to go over here because that's all that's left. There is nothing left available that could potentially cover the majority of the population of the City of Kawartha Lakes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15505 So you take a look at Peterborough, seven frequencies licensed in a city of 75,000, a CMA of 116,000. The City of Kawartha Lakes has one frequency licensed with a census agglomeration of 75,000, and that's all according to StatsCan 2006 Census figures. So where is the greatest need?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15506 We take 96.7 away from the City of Kawartha Lakes, there is no chance to unite a very geographically‑dispersed community with a whole bunch of different interests because they are so geographically dispersed. This is the one and only chance to make this happen.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15507 So what we have to do is take a look at Peterborough. They have got the Peterborough licensees, the four of the seven that are rated, being the two CHUM CTVgm stations and the two Corus stations; a 56.5 percent share of tuning to rated local stations, adults 18 plus, and that's with the BBM ratings hot off the presses last week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15508 In the City of Kawartha, poor old BOB FM, almost half of the hours tuned I had when I was on an AM in that market, and they had just got a 13 percent share of tuning, adults 18 plus. It's pretty sad and, yet, they have got this mother of an FM signal. So what's going on? BOB is not up to the job. Why is that? Well, we will identify that a little later.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15509 Peterborough has two Christian licensees, the Christian hard rock station Kings Kids and CJLF‑2 which is a hot AC/rock station repeater of the Barrie station. Well, poor old City of Kawartha Lakes has none.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15510 Right smack dab in the middle ‑‑ now if you can see this, this was given to me by Industry Canada. These are the market contours of the good folks in Barrie, their 3 millivolt perimeter contour for the Christian station there. There is their 3 millivolt repeater for Peterborough, and it just touches the southeast corner of the City of Kawartha Lakes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15511 There is no market quality signal available for people who want spiritual comfort thanks to the Religious Broadcasting Policy of 1993. So what do we do to resolve it? Well, we want to establish a Christian talk‑dominated radio station to make that happen, and give people who are well deserving their own Christian radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15512 So what we want to do here, we take a look at the City of Kawartha Lakes being hugely underserved by local radio in comparison to Peterborough. We know it's the last opportunity to serve the majority of the population of the City of Kawartha Lakes with the one signal that's capable of covering the majority of the population with a market rate 3 millivolt perimeter contour with a format, with the only format out of all formats before you this week that is not competitive for ratings, that is not competitive for revenue with the other broadcasters, and especially not competitive for revenue nor ratings with the underperforming CTVglobemedia operation in that market, the station that I used to own.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15513 So let's take a look at the application's overview. This is going to be the only local station before you out of all applicants that's going to be delivering local news every hour every day around the clock; twice daily death notices. Now, don't laugh. This is big news in a marketplace where you don't have a local daily paper or is widely spread out and people don't find out that people died until the paper is published and, yet, the funeral was two days ago.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15514 We are going to have daily local call‑in talk shows to bring the City of Kawartha Lakes their first ever voice to the community, focusing on issues of public concern and faith and family topics.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15515 Plus, we are going to bring back what was dropped by the CHUM CTVglobemedia people and dropped by Centario Communications, and that's the uplifting Bible‑based talk and teaching programs that actually thrived but they were kicked to the curb because it didn't meet with the format consistency requirements of the previous owners and the current owners' format preferences.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15516 So we are going to talk about four building blocks to make a radio station work really well, and I call them the four Cs of communication. Number one is convenience, number two is content, number three is community and number four is connectivity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15517 Now, convenience; folks, there are going to be up to eight local news stories every hour every day. And I walk the talk on this. This is something that I have done with CKLY when I had it as an AM before it was flipped by subsequent ownership groups to FM. For the first time in history in the City of Kawartha Lakes you are going to be able to get local news around the clock.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15518 In terms of content, there is going to be very compelling talk programming that brings the spiritual comfort as mandated by the Religious Broadcasting Policy and lifts people up when they are knocked down by the day‑to‑day circumstances we all face in life. We are going to be talking about issues that matter, how to get along with your spouse, how to raise your kids, how to overcome adversity; all based on solid biblical precepts from people who walk the talk in meeting those challenges. So it's all about home, heart, health, pocketbook, but based on the Bible.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15519 We are going to be talking about a community as our third cornerstone here. We have got what we call our church of the week and charity of the week initiatives. Volunteers are the backbone in any small community. They can't get media exposure with limited funds and we are giving them free and very, very unique fundraising and market tools to help raise funds and draw more volunteers to their causes and help local churches make an impact as they reach out to their communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15520 We are even giving them an opportunity to get free advertising over and above the traditional, you know, community calendar and community bulletin board and, you know, come on in for an interview and we will do a local news story on you type of angle, where if they become volunteer news correspondents they are going to get extra free advertising in return.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15521 So we are leveraging something on a real cause‑related affinity‑minded angle here, where people say, "Hey, I want to get more" ‑‑ "I want to get more free advertising for the Red Cross. I'm going to do a local news story a week for the new radio station at 96.7 and so on, and so on, because you have got well over 100 non‑profit groups in the City of Kawartha Lakes. And that's not even counting the 63, 64, 65 churches in that city. So by gosh, if you add 63 plus about 120, you have got about 183 organizations that can offer us volunteer correspondence. You bet your boots that we are going to have it covered left, right and centre.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15522 The fourth cornerstone: Connectivity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15523 For the first time ever, local citizens are going to have a voice, and with our three hours a day of local call‑in talk shows, people, for the first time ever, can speak to those issues that matter most. Nobody in Peterborough, nobody in the City of Kawartha Lakes, has this kind of initiative put in place.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15524 We are doing this because a religious community is just that, a community, and the whole religious community functions best locally ‑‑ local news every hour of every day, local events, local talk shows that speak to the issues of the day, based on Biblical perspectives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15525 This is a great opportunity to not focus on doctrinal divisions, but move forward on the common ground that people of different faith groups hold in common. No compromise, but we identify what is in common, and we can invite people of all persuasions to hear and to be heard.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15526 I would like to tell you a bit about my history and my desire to return to the City of Kawartha Lakes, and more specifically, that hub, Lindsay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15527 I was raised from diapers in radio in Lindsay. My dad owned CKLY from 1961 right through to 1986. It was a tremendous environment. My dad really understood what local radio was all about.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15528 That station survived and thrived, when surrounded by the stations now owned by Corus in Peterborough, with their big mother of an FM signal that beams into the City of Kawartha Lakes, and is still quite actively there; with CHUM's big mother of an FM signal that beams into the City of Kawartha Lakes, and is still quite actively there; with the stations that used to be owned by Corus down in the south, in Oshawa, and by a previous owner, and beamed into the City of Kawartha Lakes, and were sold quite actively there; as well as the big 100,000 watt mother of a signal, CHAY‑FM in Barrie, which completely covers the City of Kawartha Lakes, which was always actively sold in that marketplace.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15529 But the station survived and thrived as an AM station because of content, because of a significant commitment to localization.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15530 So when I had gone to cut my teeth and sell advertising in Kitchener, after business school, my dad was retiring and he said: Tell you what. I will let you match my best offer, and you can come home and buy the station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15531 That was mighty kind of him, because he had to get the money out of it so he could enjoy retirement.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15532 So I came back up, and the bank backed me, and for a million bucks I got myself a radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15533 The station, at that time, was only doing $655,000 in revenue, when I bought it, so you can imagine that we had a real debt‑to‑revenue ratio. I knew that I had to hustle.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15534 What happened? We put together some very solid marketing principles. We even enhanced local news coverage, if it could be done more than that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15535 What happened in the first year?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15536 This is net of debt service; not before debt service, net of debt service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15537 We turned more profit in the first year of my ownership than the previous 10 combined. Why? It was based on knowledge of the market and a commitment to serve the market. Boy oh boy, could we ever market the station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15538 Sales shot up 81 percent ‑‑ retail sales shot up 81 percent, and took the station from 655 to over a million bucks inside of three years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15539 That is all documented in Document No. 3, entitled "Million Dollar Success Stories".
LISTNUM 1 \l 15540 You will see a letter from the good national accounting firm of BDO Dunwoody documenting that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15541 The station went on to become one of the highest rated radio stations on AM, period, in the whole country ‑‑ AM or FM ‑‑ with a 24 percent share of hours tuned in the fall of 1988.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15542 We had a lot of fun. Within two years we took that station and we really rocked the market, despite being surrounded by the FMs, despite being in the footprint of all the monster Toronto signals.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15543 We competed by being local, and local news, local news, local news. In fact, our whole marketing campaign was built around local news and information ‑‑ get this ‑‑ up to 50 times a day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15544 How many radio stations do you hear that on to this day?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15545 I don't want you to think I am full of myself, but those are validated facts. I look at my competitors behind me, and I hold them in great admiration, because most of them have a very significant seven‑figure net worth. I guess I am the only exception to that rule.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15546 You could call them rags‑to‑riches stories. Folks, guess what? I'm a riches‑to‑rags story. I have to tell you what happened.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15547 I figured when we shot to a 24 percent share of hours tuned, one of the few small market stations doing over a million bucks in revenue, when our pre‑debt normalized operating margins were almost 200 grand ‑‑ mind you, remember, I had a heck of a debt service going for me, so there wasn't much cash left over.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15548 I basically developed a Napoleonic complex. I thought: If I can do it here, I can do it anywhere.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15549 So I tried to become the Donald Trump of cottage country real estate, and I soon found out that I wasn't.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15550 I started investing in condominium project after condominium project, and they all went bankrupt. Not too bright.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15551 What this tells you is, you can ask me a wee bit about radio, but don't ask me anything about real estate, because I will steer you straight to the poorhouse.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 15552 McNABB: But, no, that wasn't enough punishment. I had to go before the CRTC in 1990 for an FM licence in Kitchener.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15553 Get this. Foolhardy as I was, I spent over six figures on that application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15554 Guess what? Nobody got a licence in Kitchener.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15555 And you know how many people got licensed just a few years ago.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15556 I was not operating with a sound mind. That being the case, folks, if that wasn't enough, then came the recession.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15557 Remember the recession of the early nineties?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15558 In cottage country, money retracts first before it retracts elsewhere. Why? It's the discretionary dollar. People sell off their recreational properties and hunker down to their big homes in Toronto.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15559 What happened? We got hit in the recession just like everybody else did, and we took a six‑figure hit.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15560 Guess what? That was a bit of a wake‑up call for me, and we worked, and even while the recession was on, we bounced back as quickly as we fell back, and we were on a pace. We were on an annualized six‑figure increase in sales ‑‑ this is small market radio, mind you ‑‑ and a six‑figure increase in the bottom line.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15561 What happened then? As if we haven't had enough punishment already, guess what happened? Hey, it's time to renew the agreement. Let's do an asset valuation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15562 Cottage country property values crashed more than they did elsewhere because of the discretionary effect. It's the first thing to retract in a recession and the last thing to come back in a recovery.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15563 They did the valuation and they said: Andy, the value of your properties has fallen by multiple six figures. Guess what? We have a debt equity covenant in our banking arrangement. Yeah, you might make your payments every month, but we loan on two things: payments and collateral. You don't have collateral. You have blown the debt‑equity ratio sky high. We are calling your loan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15564 Where do you think you can get money in the midst of a recession? You can't.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15565 Guess what they did, folks. They took the radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15566 They put one of my junior sales people in charge of revenue. We toppled from a million dollars in revenue to under 600,000 bucks.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15567 I lost the family legacy because I took my eyes off the golden goose. I led it into financial ruin because I didn't keep my eyes on the ball. I thought I would become Mr. Real Estate entrepreneur, and I didn't make sure that I had proper people running the show while I went off to play in real estate.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15568 Lesson learned. Very sobering.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15569 I just want to put everything in balance. There were great accomplishments, but there was a great failure. Very sobering, but I ain't going to make the mistake again.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15570 That being the case, what do we do now?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15571 I want to come back. These are the people I grew up with. These are the people I worked with. These are the people I voted for. These are the people I played pick‑up hockey with. I would travel three hours from my home in St. Catharines, all the way back to my true home in Lindsay, the City of Kawartha Lakes, to socialize. You can take the boy out of Lindsay, but you can't take Lindsay out of the boy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15572 Let's talk about a need for a station. The market is not serviced well by local news, and there is a hole big enough to drive a truck through, which we will illustrate in a minute, and we are bringing a convoy full of 18‑wheelers, chocked full of local news for that community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15573 No station is providing the largest cultural group in the City of Kawartha Lakes, those people that identify themselves with the various Christian faith groups, with a service that fulfils the objectives of the religious broadcasting policy in providing spiritual comfort.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15574 That largest cultural group, folks, is the 79.8 percent of residents that identified with various Christian faith groups in the 2001 census.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15575 Let's take a look at the needs of the market vis‑à‑vis the Broadcasting Act and the religious broadcasting policy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15576 The religious broadcasting policy is for all Canadians; not just people in Calgary and Edmonton and Timmins and London and Woodstock and Kitchener and Peterborough and Barrie. Guess what? It's for the people of the City of Kawartha Lakes, too.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15577 What we have here is the situation where the City of Kawartha Lakes ‑‑ we should not be deprived of our own station to reflect our own values, given that the secular media does a fine job of not doing so.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15578 In regard to the Broadcasting Act, the public should have a reasonable opportunity to be exposed to the expression of differing views on matters of public concern. And the station is going to be the only station providing that public expression in the City of Kawartha Lakes, three hours a day, seven days a week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15579 Licensing yet another music service spinning the tunes falls way far short of that objective.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15580 Let's take a look at the market. What has happened there? What are the effects on my former station, flipped to an FM by the company that Ray McMurray used to run, which was then taken over by CTVglobemedia back in 2000?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15581 What are the effects on Bob FM and my two music competitors in the City of Kawartha Lakes, and why does this not affect me?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15582 The City of Kawartha Lakes, in the past six months, has been dealt a series of five economic body blows in a row. They have lost a ton of manufacturing capacity, resulting in, number one, a reduction in the number of shifts at GM. That is the largest corporate employer in the City of Kawartha Lakes, employing 1,000 people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15583 Fleetwood, the recreational trailer manufacturer, shut down this spring, ceasing 400 jobs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15584 Pearlman, the plastics company, is now ceasing its Canadian operation, leaving an announced shutdown of 80 to 100 positions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15585 The Turner & Seymour custom chain manufacturer cut from two shifts to one.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15586 THE SECRETARY: Excuse me. I'm sorry, Mr. McNabb, but I would just like to let you know that you have two minutes left for your presentation, if you would like to conclude.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15587 MR. McNABB: Wow! Thank you. Okay, I appreciate that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15588 Northern Plastic Lumber ‑‑ cutbacks.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15589 As a result, the rules of the game have changed. If you are selling spots, that's a tough thing to do, and Bob FM is already underperforming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15590 But guess what? I don't sell very many spots. I have 50 percent of my revenue on the books already from Christian‑paid talk programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15591 I get my other revenue, 67 grand a year, out of funeral announcements, based on the proven history of how many announcements a day, times the rate, equals 67 grand.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15592 I am only selling 30 grand a year in spots, and that is typically to churches, and maybe the odd Christian business that wants to talk to the flock.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15593 Plus, another $12,000 of Christian concerts and conferences that I had organized and that is our event revenue. So I am not competing for revenue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15594 If the market goes to H‑E double toothpicks in a hand basket I am not affected because the people who support those paid Christian talk programs are typically empty‑nesters and they are not affected as much. They have a greater range of discretionary income that is not affected in a recessionary economy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15595 So there you go. The City of Kawartha Lakes has one of the highest number of churches per capita. It is 32 percent higher than the Canadian average. It is 50 percent higher than that of Barrie ‑‑ pardon me, Peterborough, where you have two stations licensed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15596 So if you have got a .65 churches per capita ratio in Peterborough and we have got .92 in the City of Kawartha Lakes, how much more deserving are we of a signal that can cover the majority of the market?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15597 Anyway, The Post is hurting. They have cut back a 100‑year‑old daily, cut back to twice a week. They can't even sell ‑‑ prior to Christmas they can't even sell the corner ads in the newspaper. Look at that. That is the lowest entry fee into the local market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15598 Folks, it is not as rosy as it seems but we are the only ones who don't hurt anybody and as a result this is why we really feel strongly ‑‑ and I say we because there is going to be a we, there is going to be staff on board. That is why we feel we should get the licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15599 If you take a look at the whole deal, the letter from Barry Devolin that Mr. Torres read yesterday, I actually told him to write that letter and send it to all applicants, the reason being they didn't want to send it to just one.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15600 I said: All right, tell why local news is important because we are doing the most, more than our two competitors are, way more if you check the numbers. So talk about local news, how important it is. We automatically stand out.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15601 So, Mr. Torres, it was because of me you got the letter. Congratulations!
LISTNUM 1 \l 15602 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. McNabb, I apologize, can you please wrap up?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15603 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15604 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just for procedural fairness.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15605 MR. McNABB: Yes, ma'am.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15606 THE CHAIRPERSON: We give applicants 20 minutes. Please wrap up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15607 MR. McNABB: Okay. I apologize.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15608 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15609 MR. McNABB: I am just going to give you one quote.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15610 Max Radiff is the former Mayor of Lindsay before it became the City of Kawartha Lakes and he sent me an e‑mail a couple of days ago:
"In the past 15 years ‑‑ and that is since I left Lindsay ‑‑ there has been a steady erosion in the supply of effective news coverage in the County of Victoria and its successor the City of Kawartha Lakes. The inability of this city to develop a cohesive nature is due partially to the fact that residents often have little idea as to what is happening in their municipality and little opportunity to feel that they are now much part of a bigger picture." (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 15611 So folks, I am just going to end it on there. I have got quotes from other mayors. I have got quotes from everybody else and we might address those in your questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15612 So have at it. I am ready to take the shots.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 15613 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. McNabb. You will have ample opportunity in answering our questions to give us whatever information you want.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15614 I have to say that I want to thank you for increasing the energy level in this room this morning.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 15615 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think you have given our translators a run for their money.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15616 MR. McNABB: And that was despite two Valiums too.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15617 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is great.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15618 I am going to ask Commissioner del Val to lead the questioning. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15619 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Thank you, Mr. McNabb. I honestly don't know how I am going to keep up with you but let's just go with the programming first, okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15620 So you are proposing a specialty Christian talk format and I can see from your numbers that there is a very, very high emphasis on spoken‑word programming, and because it is also a Christian station ‑‑ and I can see that you are familiar with the religious broadcasting policy from your application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15621 Now balance is very important and that policy requires us as a Commission to ask you to explain exactly how you are going to achieve the balance and to be specific about the balance that you will provide.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15622 I know that you have mentioned 21 hours of balanced programming and that you are prepared to commit to that as a condition of licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15623 So just that one question: Are you prepared to commit to 21 hours of balanced programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15624 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15625 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15626 Second question: Now then can you give me a better idea of what exactly that balanced programming will be?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15627 I know you have mentioned:
"In general, balance would be addressed in the overall open‑line programming offered by this applicant over a reasonable period of time." (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 15628 Is it only open‑line or could you just describe all of the balanced programming you have planned?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15629 MR. McNABB: Definitely. Balance is one of the most effective programming and marketing tools this radio station has. I will tell you why.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15630 You have got ‑‑ in the City of Kawartha Lakes you have got ‑‑ talk about a religiously homogeneous marketplace. Listen to this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15631 0.7 percent of other religious groups, other than people who would say they belong to the Christian faith, 0.7. You don't get much more homogeneous than that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15632 Then you take a look at people who say they have no religion, 19.5 percent. That leaves 79.8 percent of people who say, hey, we belong to a Christian faith group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15633 So rather than focus on doctrinal division, we want to focus on the common ground that Christians would believe on and that is two fundamental principles. They believe Jesus is Lord and you can't get to heaven without him. So that is what they all agree. So let's just focus on that and let's build on commonality.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15634 But what about ‑‑ let's see now, what about the 150 Muslims in the City of Kawartha Lakes or the 55 Jews? Well, tell you what, what we are doing here is we are going to have a heap of fun.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15635 We are in an increasingly multicultural country and even though the City of Kawartha Lakes is very much unlike the rest of Canada, it is going to be coming to towns sooner or later. So if we are going to be shopping at the same stores together, having our kids in school together, having our kids play ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15636 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Mr. McNabb ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15637 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15638 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: ‑‑ I know why balance is important.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15639 MR. McNABB: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15640 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: I just need to know what ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15641 MR. McNABB: What we are doing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15642 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: ‑‑ are the programs, please. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15643 MR. McNABB: What programs?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15644 Three hours a day of local call‑in talk shows, an hour and a half in the afternoon, with an hour and a half at night.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15645 Now what we do is we invite people with a ‑‑ we have a volunteer talk show host, a different pastor each day hosting. We have the former co‑host of "100 Huntley Street" already confirmed and that is in the interventions that were filed in November, Diane Roblin‑Lee.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15646 These are volunteer hosts because they get free promotion for their business or their church group, et cetera. But what we are doing, we are inviting different people from different faiths.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15647 So for example, we have a Sikh, Ken Bakshi. Now, the Sikhs, Stats Canada says there's zero people in the City of Kawartha Lakes. Well, I know the Bakshis personally and their family of six has been around there for 30 years. So what we do, we seek out these people and we have them involved. We have Sylvia Burke who will come on air and speak to issues from the Jewish perspective.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15648 We can talk ‑‑ for example, let's take this week. What was the biggest ‑‑ one of the biggest news stories this week and how do you localize it? Well, it was about the tragic strangling of that Muslim girl by her father. So what is the talk of the show today: How far should you push your faith on your kids?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15649 So we have a roundtable by three‑way calling coming into the studio where we can offer the Jewish perspective from Sylvia, the Sikh perspective from Ken. We have the Muslim perspective from the President of the Islamic Federation. So that is how we address it with issues of balance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15650 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: So basically the 21 hours would be three hours per day times seven, seven days a week?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15651 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15652 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Okay. I gather from your response that you have contacts in the community with the members of different faiths?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15653 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15654 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Right. And then when you were talking about having three lines open, are you ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15655 MR. McNABB: Oh! More than that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15656 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Okay. When you have the call‑in shows, will you have sort of a panel of people representing the different faiths and then there will be the public calling in or are you relying completely on those who call in to sort of air what their views are?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15657 MR. McNABB: You cannot rely on people to call in no matter what kind of a talk show you have. You have got to go out and you have got to establish that these people are going to be participating on those calls.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15658 Whether it is a Christian station doing talk shows or a secular station doing talk shows, you have got to hunt them down, tie them up, glue them to the phone and let them participate, and that way you are assured of having quality participation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15659 This is why I have called Ken. This is why I have called Sylvia. This is why I have got their agreement to participate. Even Frank Dimant, who is the Vice‑President of B'Nai Brith in Toronto ‑‑ we can have local Sylvia Burke representing the Jewish people but Frank can speak to the international angles regarding Israel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15660 So as a result we bring everybody in because they are willing to commit. Why? It gives them a great platform to be understood because if we can better understand we are going to get along better and that isn't just a warm and fuzzy thing, it is a practical step in an increasingly multicultural society.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15661 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15662 Are you going to be bringing in these individuals, do you think, primarily from Kawartha Lakes, the city itself, first and then ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15663 MR. McNABB: Always prioritize local because the more local you are, the more relevant you are to the people. But we can add different perspective by bringing their national counterparts. Like Sylvia local, Frank national, et cetera, et cetera.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15664 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Thank you, Mr. McNabb.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15665 Then what corrective measures will you take if balance were not met?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15666 MR. McNABB: If balance were not met, quite simply ‑‑ if you could give me an example because we are taking an extremely proactive approach to this in terms of getting people to commit and offering them something beneficial.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15667 Quite simply, we are going to be promoting the visit of the Israel Consul General to speak in Lindsay, the hub of the City of Kawartha Lakes. Why? Because Frank does a lot of work with the Israel Consul General. So that is a good thing for him to further his agenda.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15668 So there is always a tradeoff. We are doing something for them. We are scratching their back big time for them to participate. So by being this proactive, by providing a reward for their participation, if you will, we can't see how we would ever violate the principle of balance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15669 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15670 One of the sort of guidelines that the religious broadcasting policy talks about, they talk about mechanisms that you should put in place to ensure balance and they talk about a regulatory review committee that you can establish in order to receive complaints because the matters that you deal with will be sensitive and there will be a lot of different points of view.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15671 So perhaps you could just play it out for me. Say you have a program and then someone is not happy because they are Buddhist and believe that their view wasn't erred and should have been represented and therefore there was no balance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15672 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15673 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Can you play it out from there? What would you? How would the complaint be received, how would it be dealt with, and if you find that in fact there was a mistake how would you correct it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15674 MR. McNABB: Quite easily. The people who are our guest panellists are automatically part of that review committee, because what we will be doing is promoting on the fact that people can go to our website if they have a complaint or a problem or an issue they want addressed, if they type that in, that automatically goes to an e‑mail to each one of our panellists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15675 When we talk about their next participation coming up we will say "Hey, Andy, what about that Buddhist fellow who tuned into the station?"
LISTNUM 1 \l 15676 Now remember, the City of Kawartha Lakes you are pretty much preaching to the choir because of the fact it is extremely dominant in terms of its representation of the Christian faith. The vast majority of your listeners are going to be people who identify themselves as Christians, but we see this as an opportunity to educate Christians on other faith groups from a very involved and compelling point of view.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15677 But nonetheless, somebody, because of the promotion that we are doing ‑‑ because we want to expand, we want the Sikhs, we want the Muslims, we want the Hindus, we want the Buddhists, all 30 of them, tuning into the radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15678 So our panellists receive the comment. I am copied on the comment as well. Why? The buck stops here. I'm the one ultimately responsible, aren't I?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15679 So what do is, our program director talks about it with me, we say "Listen, we got this comment. What are we going to do to address it this week in this show?" So that within a matter of business days it is being addressed on air. "Frank Jones Buddhist from Dunsford" ‑‑ which is just 10 miles outside of Lindsay ‑‑ "they had a complaint, we are talking about it on‑air." Why? if we can show ourselves going to extreme lengths to address a balance consideration, we are going to be thought of pretty highly by every one of the people who comprises 0.7 per cent of other faith groups.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15680 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Now, what would you say if I said that you probably need an objective pair of eyes, a third party who wasn't involved in producing the program or who were the hosts of the program and you really need someone who can look from outside and evaluate, because I think those who conduct the program could always have an interest in that they have done it right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15681 MR. McNABB: Sure. Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15682 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Would you have any plans of sort of having a regulatory review committee that could be a bit objective?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15683 MR. McNABB: I would be happy to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15684 COMMISSIONER del VAL: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15685 MR. McNABB: The original plan was literally for the panellists to act on that because ‑‑ our panellists being the Sikh, the Hindu, the Muslim, the Jew, et cetera, et cetera, can contribute a diversity of perspective toward handling that situation, but every single problem will be addressed on‑air, for the very simple fact that it shows that this radio station is going to the nth degree, to a point yet a third party ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15686 Hey, I'm willing to do it, I just hadn't thought of it. I thought just by virtue of having a panel that is representative of all the 0.7 other religions in the City of Kawartha Lakes that might do the trick, but I am very open because, as you know, I'm pretty keen on this whole balancing from a marketing and programming expansion point of view.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15687 I would love to hear your thoughts, Ms del Val on who that third ‑‑ the type of person that third party might be. Yes, they are not involved, but where would you grab that person? What would you look for in terms of their background?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15688 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Someone who does not have an interest in your ‑‑ not the interest in, say, a financial interest in your station. Or if you are talking about ‑‑ like what would you do to tell the audience who were listening that, "Look, if you don't agree or if you have a complaint" where would you go? Your complaint from there, a corrective measure. Would it be that you can get the same panel together or the next week you are going to constitute a different panel with other representation or, say, including some representation of the Buddhism faith and say, "Okay, last week we heard from faiths 1, 2, 3 on this issue and we have had a complaint and to be more balanced week two we will have the same issue discussed by faiths 4, 5, 6? Would you do something like that? Would that be a corrective ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15689 MR. McNABB: Well, that's actually part of the plan. We do have revolving panellists for that very reason, because we keep perspectives fresh and it isn't always skewing to the perspectives of a few, it is balanced by the perspectives of what: Many.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15690 So yes, again, they can go to the website, they can register any complaints, but every single complaint will be dealt with on‑air and people all the time will be encouraged to respond if they have a different point of view with a question. That only makes a station stronger and it gets more people tuning in because they want to find out "Well, how are they going to address it? I'm going to be tuning in." What do we do? We just expand our audience, thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15691 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I'm sorry, just give me one minute.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15692 COMMISSIONER del VAL: All right. So I take it that you are very prepared to accept as a condition of licence that you will adhere to the guidelines in the religious broadcasting policy?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15693 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15694 COMMISSIONER del VAL: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15695 Still on programming, and I hope I'm not going to try your patience on what I am trying to ask. I know we have gone around this about the exact hours of spoken programming, local news, et cetera, et cetera, many times and I know you have tried to give us a lot of information.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15696 Now, I think that perhaps, though, I would like to keep it very simple and if you could just dumb it down for me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15697 Because you have spreadsheets in your deficiency responses showing how you arrived at the numbers and you also expressed the numbers in terms of what your goal is in terms of local programming. For example, you say the goal is 69.5, but the commitment is 63. And then you express it in percentages and sometimes it's in minutes per day, sometimes it's hours per week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15698 So it's a little bit difficult for us to make all of the calculations reconcile.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15699 I'm going to go through each category and if you could just state for me in terms of hours per week what each of these numbers will be, I would really appreciate it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15700 MR. McNABB: I will.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15701 COMMISSIONER del VAL: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15702 So what we will start first is: What is the amount of hours per week of total spoken word?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15703 Let's just stick to commitments, not targets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15704 MR. McNABB: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15705 COMMISSIONER del VAL: So total hours of spoken word per week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15706 MR. McNABB: So let's take a look at page 6 of the spreadsheet. Spoken word program totals, okay ‑‑ this is local and national ‑‑ 84.5 hours a week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15707 COMMISSIONER del VAL: All right. Good, I will note that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15708 You are showing on that same sheet non‑Canadian spoken word is 49.5 hours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15709 Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15710 MR. McNABB: Hang on. Okay, I go to my ‑‑ yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15711 49.5 hours, correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15712 COMMISSIONER del VAL: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15713 Canadian spoken word is 7 hours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15714 Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15715 MR. McNABB: Canadian national spoken word programming is 7 hours. That just hasn't been developed yet in this country ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15716 COMMISSIONER del VAL: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15717 MR. McNABB: ‑‑ because the industry is still in its infancy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15718 COMMISSIONER del VAL: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15719 Then weekly hours devoted to religious programming, is it 84.5 hours?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15720 MR. McNABB: Well, let's see now. I know music programming isn't considered an issue of balance, but ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15721 COMMISSIONER del VAL: No. Spoken word, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15722 MR. McNABB: So the 84.5 hours with the balance of hours being heavily weighted toward, you know, local surveillance with Christian music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15723 MR. McNABB: So 84.5 hours spoken word program totals, local and then national, and then what we call the announcer‑hosted local spoken word and music hours 41.5. Add the two together, there is your 126 hours a week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15724 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Could you run that by me again?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15725 MR. McNABB: Sure. We have spoken word program totals, local and national, 84.5 hours a week. Then the announcer‑hosted, like 6:00 a.m. to 8:30 a.m. Monday to Friday; noon to 1:00 Monday to Friday; 4:00 to 6:00 Monday to Friday; plus 6:00 a.m. to 1:00 on Saturday and Sunday. The announcer‑hosted hours that include music, but again music is taking a back seat because of the opportunities for local information, but those hours are 41.5. So add the 84.5 to the 41.5, there is your 126 hours a week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15726 COMMISSIONER del VAL: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15727 You also had a category of spoken ‑‑ I think religious spoken word.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15728 MR. McNABB: Religious spoken word. Now, I'm looking at my ‑‑ I'm looking at my spreadsheets here and I don't ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15729 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Okay. Maybe it was in a ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15730 MR. McNABB: ‑‑ see the word religious.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15731 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Okay, my mistake.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15732 MR. McNABB: Because the spreadsheet is the final arbiter.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15733 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Okay, great. Okay, so I see where I see a local spoken word Bible teaching. Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15734 Sorry, total spoken word is 84.5?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15735 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15736 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: What about total local programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15737 MR. McNABB: Total local programming, okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15738 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: And I have ‑‑ I will tell you what I have and you can just tell me ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15739 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15740 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: ‑‑ whether that's correct, that you are committing to 63 hours per week of local programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15741 MR. McNABB: Nope. I am committing to 69.5. On that spreadsheet that has ‑‑ page six of one of the intervention responses there, if you go right, almost halfway down the middle it says:
"Local live and non‑live program totals for above‑noted programs which include local newscasts in each program, hours of local programming 69.5."
LISTNUM 1 \l 15742 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Okay. So that is the number that you will actually commit to, 69.5?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15743 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15744 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15745 What about what I call ‑‑ oh, let's go with news, how many hours of news?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15746 MR. McNABB: News, the building blocks of the whole radio station. Without this we would be lost.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15747 We have got, let's see here now ‑‑ we have got 14.4 hours of just newscasts each week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15748 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Now, is that 14.4 pure news in what ‑‑ pure news I mean not including surveillance like traffic reports, weather? It's 14.5 ‑‑ 14.4 of pure news?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15749 MR. McNABB: Yes, those news packages would be news; local news and sports and weather is on top of that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15750 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: So the 14.4 does or does not include surveillance?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15751 MR. McNABB: Well, it does not include surveillance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15752 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay, great, so 14.4 of pure news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15753 MR. McNABB: In fact, I didn't even ‑‑ it was interesting. I addressed surveillance issues but I never put them into my calculations. So you know, you think of all the possible forms of surveillance we talked about were way over 14.4 hours, with news plus surveillance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15754 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay, but you did include the surveillance as part of the spoken word, didn't you?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15755 MR. McNABB: No, I did not, no. This is ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15756 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15757 MR. McNABB: Not at all.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15758 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay. Then I think, Mr. McNabb, you are going to have to file a revised sort of delineation of the programming. And could you please give me the number inclusive of all total spoken word and per week, what would be the total amount of spoken word in hours per week?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15759 MR. McNABB: Done. I noticed it as I was preparing for the hearing that I never even put my surveillance calculations in. So I have done this and I will be happy to file it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15760 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay. Then if you put this surveillance in what is your total spoken word?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15761 MR. McNABB: Okay, 88.62 hours. There is 4.12 hours of surveillance. That's additional documented but not previously calculated spoken word commitments.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15762 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay. Does it change the local programming number?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15763 MR. McNABB: You see in ‑‑ this is where it gets hairy because in local programming ‑‑ or let's talk about 7:00 to 8:00 a.m. just for the fun of it. That's already a local programming hour and then we have subsets and surveillance within that local programming hour. We break those out but the hour is still an hour, right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15764 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15765 MR. McNABB: And it's still local.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15766 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15767 MR. McNABB: So we ‑‑ I have broken those out here and hopefully that will suffice. It will be in memoriam funeral announcements, it will be the local church or charity of the week; it will be the community bulletin board, church and charity announcements. It will be the Christian concert and event updates, all things that we talked about in the application but just never calculated.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15768 COMMISSIONER del VAL: So Mr. McNabb, then you could file those revised numbers with us, please?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15769 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15770 COMMISSIONER del VAL: And may I just go through the list just so you know what we are expecting to receive ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15771 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15772 COMMISSIONER del VAL: ‑‑ in the revisions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15773 So I am looking for hours per week of total spoken word, total local programming; total news in terms of ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15774 MR. McNABB: Please, I want to make sure I am getting everything here. So we are looking at what, again?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15775 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Total spoken word.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15776 MR. McNABB: M'hm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15777 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Total local programming, total pure news. By pure news I mean not including surveillance like weather and traffic. That's not included in pure news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15778 Then in the pure news could you also break it down into what ‑‑ how many hours of the pure news would be local news?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15779 MR. McNABB: May I address that, because there is something that we are doing that is extremely distinct from what you will hear literally on 95 percent of radio?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15780 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Yes, you will have a chance to do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15781 MR. McNABB: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15782 COMMISSIONER del VAL: But let's just do the numbers right now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15783 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15784 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay, so what percentage of the ‑‑ yes, but how many hours of local news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15785 MR. McNABB: M'hm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15786 COMMISSIONER del VAL: And then if local news doesn't total 14.4, then what would be the other parts of the news?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15787 Then I would like, please, total weather, total sports coverage if any and then total promotion of local events and activities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15788 In fact, I believe that there is one deficiency response that I can find for you very quickly that summarizes what is included in spoken word.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15789 MR. McNABB: The October or the July letter?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15790 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Here, it is on page four of the ‑‑ I believe it's the ‑‑ page four of the response to letter of June 27.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15791 MR. McNABB: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15792 COMMISSIONER del VAL: And it's in the question number 5, 5(i) that breaks down for you the categories of what we would say comprised spoken word. So if you could break those numbers down as a final number?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15793 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay, is that doable?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15794 MR. McNABB: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15795 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15796 MR. McNABB: Now, when would you like this filed by?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15797 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I was just going to ‑‑ how long do you need?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15798 MR. McNABB: Okay. Well, after we finish the back and forth today, I can lock myself up in a room tomorrow and get this banged out for you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15799 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Would end of the day do, legal counsel, tomorrow?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15800 MS SMITH: We will give you one week to file it, one week from today, end of day, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15801 MR. McNABB: Fair enough, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15802 MS SMITH: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15803 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15804 So Mr. McNabb, when I'm looking at local programming even if I say with the revisions, I take it up to ‑‑ I don't know ‑‑ 75 hours. You are saying you commit to 69.5 and you have added about say four hours in addition.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15805 Say if it's 75 hours, 75 out of 126 broadcast hours per week, that still leaves a big chunk of non‑local.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15806 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15807 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Of non‑local programming, and of that non‑local program I know you have also broken it down into non‑Canadian and Canadian. And from the last set of numbers I received, the non‑Canadian amount about just under 50 hours. It is 40‑something hours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15808 MR. McNABB: 49.5.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15809 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Yes, 49.5 which is what, 40 percent?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15810 And I know that in your submissions and all you talk about highly localized, you talk about intensely local. For one, I find that not very ‑‑ just the numbers not very consistent with how you are characterizing this as highly localized. That's the first point that you would need to address.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15811 And the second point is why? Why do ‑‑ why such a high level of non‑local, non‑Canadian? You could have a very good reason in terms of revenue or whatever.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15812 So could you address those two points, please?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15813 MR. McNABB: Okay. Why such a high level of non‑local and the two points ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15814 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Non‑Canadian; non‑local and non‑Canadian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15815 MR. McNABB: Non‑Canadian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15816 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15817 MR. McNABB: I would have put this in perspective by establishing or identifying a standard for top level local service. And the dean of local programming in radio in this country is Elmer Hildebrand. Now, if you take a look at the ‑‑ and this is in the papers, my presentation papers I gave to Cindy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15818 Elmer says, and this is where I quote. He says:
"Local news is where we have hung our hats because, at the end of the day, music is readily available anywhere. The important thing is the local service and the music is what holds it all together and fills in the off time. But music is not what drives our business nor our radio stations." (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 15819 MR. McNABB: So the whole thing here is local news. Let's take a look at an hour of non‑local time. See if you have a Focus on the Family, these programs that comprise these 49.5 hours, these programs are heard on radio stations across this country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15820 And as you know, the Religious Broadcasting Policy identified that our religious programming gets a short shift. It is marginalized into the late evenings and all nights and Sunday mornings and there is an opportunity for people to get these programs that they know and they love. So it's just like in a case of an hour of music you get a 10‑song hour and 60 percent of your songs are American and 40 percent of your songs are Canadian, here we have a situation where still a minority of our program hours are American and a majority of our program hours are Canadian. So I really want to draw that distinction.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15821 And that being said, you take a look at Focus on the Family. These paid programs are 28 minutes and 30 seconds in length on average. That means when we run those programs there is going to be approximately three minutes an hour that we can squeeze into a two‑minute newscast. We are going to do eight minutes on the hour from 6:00 a.m. to 8:30. We are going to do eight minutes in the noon hour, doing eight minutes during our talk shows. We are doing eight minutes in drive time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15822 But in those hours that we have these 28 minute and 30 second programs, there is three minutes there to do some local news and get in a commercial or a promo or what have you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15823 So these are programs that Canadians are already listening to, already know, already love and that we are just giving them at times that are more convenient to them. And as a result, we can be highly local because people are going to tune in for the local news. If they don't like the Canadian or the local or the non‑Canadian program they can go back to their favourite radio station, but they are always going to be coming back for local news, you know, updated every hour.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15824 Does that answer your question okay?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15825 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I'm just trying to digest it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15826 So I think ‑‑ is what you are telling me, that when you talk about highly localized what I should really be thinking about is that the local programming that you provide will be highly localized? What local programming ‑‑ the 69.5 to 75 hours that is what will be intensely local?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15827 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15828 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15829 MR. McNABB: And then every hour of those other 49.5 you are going to have intensely local news in between those two programs at the top of every hour.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15830 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay. So it's just that what you will ‑‑ what you characterize as local will be very, very local?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15831 MR. McNABB: Exactly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15832 COMMISSIONER del VAL: But overall the reality is that there will be a large proportion of the program when you ‑‑ of the station when you look at it as a whole, will be non‑Canadian programming and non‑local programming for reasons we thought we can explore later?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15833 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15834 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay, good.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15835 MR. McNABB: But we will still be local every hour, no matter what.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15836 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15837 So that takes us ‑‑ that probably leads us into revenues and financials. Now, I have a little bit of trouble again reconciling your numbers, and if I'm too slow at that or if there have just been too many revisions we may just ‑‑ I may just ask you again for an undertaking to file the final numbers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15838 Now, you had a ‑‑ you filed a revised application and ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15839 MR. McNABB: I think you have got me confused with another applicant. I did one application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15840 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay, I hope so.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15841 COMMISSIONER del VAL: You are right. That's great, that's good news. Then I don't have to reconcile these.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15842 Okay, great. Then I will just go back to your ‑‑ do you want to pull up your overview?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15843 MR. McNABB: Sure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15844 MR. McNABB: I have got it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15845 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay, great.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15846 So let's go to where you talk ‑‑ I think it's page four where you are talking about what we are selling.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15847 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15848 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay. Now, I will first try and get a better understanding of what each of those are. Then, secondly, I would like to know how they actually generate revenue and then, lastly, I sort of would like to reconcile those with the ‑‑ with your financial operations statement that you have filed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15849 Now, just on page four when you are talking about ‑‑ and you described them in your October 3rd deficiency response, you know, programming that automatically comes with its own revenue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15850 Now, let's go down to the first bullet of 318,240 in national pre‑produced Christian talk programs at specific primetime. Now, this is brokered programming, is it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15851 MR. McNABB: Correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15852 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15853 Now, I know you have got right now not a parent company but your biggest financial backer is EMF or K‑Love in California.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15854 MR. McNABB: Correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15855 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Right, and they operate some ‑‑ I think two chains of Christian radio stations?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15856 MR. McNABB: Right, yes, they have over 200 radio stations in the Christian format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15857 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay. Is that the source of ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15858 MR. McNABB: They are my banker.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15859 COMMISSIONER del VAL: They are, yes. And how does that play into the 318,240? Are you buying the ‑‑ are you selling the time to them?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15860 MR. McNABB: No.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15861 COMMISSIONER del VAL: No?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15862 MR. McNABB: No, K‑Love is providing the ‑‑ or the Educational Media Foundation, EMF ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15863 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15864 MR. McNABB: ‑‑ is providing the financing that covers you know start‑up costs as we get rolling along. But the 318 is revenue that we are selling to Focus on the Family, Back to the Bible, People's Gospel Hour; all these national Christian ‑‑ you see EMF K‑Love is a music‑oriented ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15865 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15866 MR. McNABB: ‑‑ network. They are all music. Here I am all talk. It's black and white.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15867 COMMISSIONER del VAL: M'hm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15868 MR. McNABB: And so we sell to national Christian charitable organizations in Canada and in the United States who produce half‑hour shows, quarter‑hour shows based on Bible talk and teaching, and as a result they buy that time from us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15869 The way they make their money is at the end of the program. For example, Focus on the Family, let's say James Dobson has Gary Smalley who is one of the most prolific marriage and family authors around, and at the end of the show just say, "And if you would like a copy of Dr. Smalley's latest book, 'The Hidden Keys to a Loving Relationship', for your tax‑deductible gift of $35 we will have it on your doorstep in a week." And then boom, that's it, nice soft sell.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15870 COMMISSIONER del VAL: M'hm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15871 MR. McNABB: So they sell Christian books, audio CDs and DVDs. That's how they make their money. So it's like a direct response but it's not shilling product. It's just a very soft sell at the end.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15872 If you ever want to get a handle on that, tune into CHRI in Ottawa and just listen to Focus on the Family. You get an idea of how they make their money.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15873 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay. Now, is there any ‑‑ will there be any programming where you actually ‑‑ where there will be solicitation of funds from the audience, the listener?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15874 MR. McNABB: No.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15875 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15876 The 24,700 in local live or pre‑produced local Christian talk programs produced by local church organizations is that ‑‑ that's basically selling them, the local organizations the time slots then?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15877 MR. McNABB: You bet.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15878 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay. Yes, you have explained the funeral announcements.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15879 30,000 in commercial for local churches, bookstores, and those will be pure advertising?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15880 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15881 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay. And the 12,000 in profits I understand that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15882 On the ‑‑ are you going to be counting on any of these sources of revenue from Peterborough or only Kawartha Lakes?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15883 MR. McNABB: Only Kawartha Lakes. We are trying to bend over backwards to be a collaborator and not a cannibal in the market, for the very simple reason that I have got another application that I am filing with you good people hopefully before Christmas, and I have got to show a good track record of being a corporate citizen so I can get the second licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15884 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay. So I'm going along further down in the overview where you talk about ‑‑ you start with what revenues are budgeted and what is not budgeted. You have three items that are budgeted: the $30,000 in commercials, which we have talked about; the $25,000 in funeral announcements, which we understand; and the $12,000 in profit from different concerts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15885 MR. McNABB: Yes, and that's a typo, just so you know, because you can see in the financial operations part of the application, and in my column on page 4, that the funeral announcements amount is $65,700.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15886 That is based on historical numbers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15887 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay. Then, on your non‑budgeted numbers, on the same page, you have Items 4 through 11, and you are saying "not budgeted", but asking for permission to generate.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15888 None of those ‑‑ you are asking for $25,000 in revenue for commercials for Christian‑owned businesses in Item 4, and so on. Those are not activities that you need regulatory approval for to carry out. You don't need our permission to do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15889 However, I think what we would like to ask you for is ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15890 I can only assume that you will carry those out, because there is no prohibition against it. As a result, if you put those numbers back into your revenue projections, then I would need revised revenue projections, and, in turn, the impact on incumbents, according to your calculations, when you put those numbers back in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15891 MR. McNABB: Okay. I would like to share with you why I asked permission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15892 It is the old "darned if you do; darned if you don't" scenario.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15893 In 2004 I had the honour and privilege and unmitigated pleasure of being denied by the CRTC the 96.7 frequency because poor old CHUM/globemedia said that big, bad, Andy McNabb was going to come home and beat them up and sell too many commercials.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15894 So I travelled to Ottawa, and I said, "Guys, what do I do?"
LISTNUM 1 \l 15895 I said, "I will tell you what I will do. I will pull off almost all of our commercials, and we won't go and beg the car dealer to buy us instead of the newspaper, or to buy us instead of BOB FM. I will pull all of the commercials. We will leave a smattering on there for Christian businesses, and we will go heavy on Christian talk."
LISTNUM 1 \l 15896 If you are wondering why we have a lot more American Christian talk, it is because Duff Roman and the gang were complaining that I was going to beat him up. Poor kids.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15897 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I understand the history behind this, and I know why you are asking for permission, so I guess the other way around it is, say, in the Peterborough market, would you ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15898 I might be jumping the gun a bit, because I don't know what your plans are yet about Peterborough, whether you intend to broadcast there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15899 Also, now with the change of the technical approval from Industry Canada, I don't know how much of Peterborough your contour will still cover.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15900 But, in any event, would you accept as a Condition of Licence not soliciting advertising from the Peterborough market, and not offering any Peterborough news or any other local spoken word programming as part of your Kawartha Lakes service?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15901 MR. McNABB: I would be happy to. I want to be a collaborator, not a competitor.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15902 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15903 MR. McNABB: Just to make sure that everybody is on base here, I am just fine with the revenue items in the income statement as they are.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15904 Because of the brouhaha that resulted in 2004, I said, "Hey, we can go to a car dealer and say, `Tell you what. We are not going to sell any advertising. We are going to broadcast each Saturday from your dealership. Do you think we might be able to sell a car? You make an average of 2,500 bucks profit when you sell a car. Tell you what. We will put up the remote broadcast for free, but we get a $1,000 for every one of our listeners who walks in and buys a car.'"
LISTNUM 1 \l 15905 That way we are not fighting for the scraps, like all media partners do. We get to own a greater share of the action, and it's no money out of pocket for the car dealer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15906 Win, win, win. Win for us, win for the car dealer, win for poor little BOB FM, who is having trouble generating revenue and ratings.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15907 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay. Great. That helps.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15908 Help me reconcile the numbers. I am going to your application, Section 4.1, on the financial operations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15909 It would help if you pulled that up, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15910 MR. McNABB: Yes, it's right there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15911 COMMISSIONER del VAL: If I am looking at the revenues ‑‑ and let's just look at the first year ‑‑ the $318,000 number, I think I can match that to the national brokered programming on your overview.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15912 The $120,000 ‑‑ I just need confirmation of where that comes from.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15913 I added up the rest of those items that you listed on page 4 of your overview. I think they sort of added up to $120,000, but is that what makes up what you call the local revenue?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15914 MR. McNABB: Exactly. Let's break that out.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15915 Programs to local churches, $24,700.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15916 Funeral announcements, $65,700.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15917 And the local direct commercials for the Christian churches and ministries, $30,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15918 That comes out to $120,400, to be exact.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15919 COMMISSIONER del VAL: What is "Contra"?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15920 MR. McNABB: That is where you trade off.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15921 For example, we will go to the local churches and say, "Listen, we want you to put an ad in your bulletin every single week ‑‑ "
LISTNUM 1 \l 15922 This is the most easily sought out market that you could ever look to target in broadcasting. We know where our listeners are every Sunday. They are pretty darned easy to reach and promote to. It is a wonderfully efficient business model, and it turns traditional radio's business model upside down.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15923 As a result, we can go to the newspapers and say, "Listen, you do your faith page, don't you?"
LISTNUM 1 \l 15924 "Yeah, we do."
LISTNUM 1 \l 15925 "Well, tell you what; let's put an ad for the faith‑based radio station in there, and we will promote the articles you have on your faith page coming up in each issue."
LISTNUM 1 \l 15926 "Contra" is trading advertising for advertising.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15927 COMMISSIONER del VAL: You have your total revenue for Year 1 at about $500,000 ‑‑ or $501,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15928 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15929 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Let's flip to the next page, where we are talking about the Statement of Changes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15930 In Year 1 you show your Accounts Receivable as being over $100,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15931 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15932 COMMISSIONER del VAL: That's 20 percent. That seems really high.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15933 MR. McNABB: It is high.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15934 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Where did that come from?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15935 MR. McNABB: The formula in that spreadsheet ‑‑ we assumed that we would be collecting 90 days in the first year, and then we would bring it down over time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15936 We just thought, being conservative ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15937 Typically, religious broadcasters do pay extremely promptly. It's a matter of good stewardship. But, again, we wanted to put as much conservatism into the cash flow projections as possible.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15938 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay. And that is from all of your clients, basically, who advertise or buy your slots.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15939 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15940 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I have looked at the loan agreement between you and EMF ‑‑ Educated Media Foundation?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15941 MR. McNABB: Educational Media Foundation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15942 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15943 There are no terms of default ‑‑ and here is where I am going with this question. Would you lose control if you defaulted?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15944 I have read the agreement, and it is very carefully crafted, and it says that at no time will anybody do anything to render this offside of the regulations, in terms of control, but it is still a little unusual for a loan agreement to not have terms of default, and what happens on default, and what would be the creditors' rights on default.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15945 The first question is: Is there any other loan agreement with them that you would intend to enter into, should you be granted a licence?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15946 MR. McNABB: Absolutely not.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15947 COMMISSIONER del VAL: If there were one ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15948 I am not doubting your word, but the world changes. If there were one, would you undertake to file it as soon as it came into existence?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15949 MR. McNABB: We would.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15950 But we addressed default and they said no, they are content to ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15951 When we were drafting this together, they were content to have the mechanism for mediation, which is very much described, in detail, in the agreement.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15952 COMMISSIONER del VAL: You are not granting any other security?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15953 MR. McNABB: Zero.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15954 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I also see from the agreement that the American corporation is taking the maximum number ‑‑ has the right ‑‑ has the option to take the maximum number of shares without going offside the Canadian regulation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15955 I assume that there will be a shareholders' agreement.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15956 MR. McNABB: Yes. If they do exercise that option ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15957 We are working on a couple of other initiatives that they may want to ‑‑ if they want shares, they may want to put them into that, but that is all down the road.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15958 But, yes, if they partnered with us, without question, we would have to have a shareholders' agreement. It benefits me, it benefits them, and that would, naturally, be filed, should they exercise that option for the City of Kawartha Lakes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15959 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Could you undertake to file such documents, as they come into existence, that are relevant to the operation of your station, or that may relate to the control of your radio station, please?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15960 MR. McNABB: Control will always be right here. I have laboured too long, too hard, and suffered too much over 15 years to give anyone else control.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15961 COMMISSIONER del VAL: What local revenue you are going to derive, how do you think it will impact King's Kids?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15962 MR. McNABB: Zero.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15963 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Why?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15964 MR. McNABB: First of all, their signal doesn't even come into the City of Kawartha Lakes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15965 Even if we were a Peterborough applicant, I would be saying zero. Why? Don't take my word for it, let's talk to Catherine Robertson, who responded in my response to Scott Jackson, in my November 15th filing to his intervention.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15966 Catherine Robertson, by the way, of Eagle‑Com, is the largest buyer of Christian program time in this country, buying millions upon millions of dollars of these half‑hour Christian program times, primarily for the benefit of American charities. They have found that Canadians just love this programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15967 Because our industry is only 14 years old, we haven't had a chance to build a Canadian talk industry yet, and that is why we are doing what we are doing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15968 Big oaks from small acorns grow, and we are going to start it right in the City of Kawartha Lakes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15969 Catherine said: There is no hope in ‑‑ you know what ‑‑ that there is going to be any chance of dollars coming off any other Christian radio station because of all the money they are putting with me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15970 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15971 You filed an Appendix 1A, "Combined Statement of Pre‑Operating Costs and Assumptions".
LISTNUM 1 \l 15972 MR. McNABB: I am there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15973 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I see that a lot of your revenue has ‑‑ you show a 15 percent "Agency". What is that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15974 MR. McNABB: That is how Catherine Robertson makes her money.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15975 For example, if she buys a program for, let's say, "Focus on the Family", they would pay ‑‑ be billed by her for 175 bucks, just for the sake of argument, and she would take 15 percent off and pay us the net.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15976 COMMISSIONER del VAL: It is basically her sales commission for ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15977 MR. McNABB: Agency commission, just like if you were the ad agency for Campbell Soup. You would bill Campbell's $175 a spot, and then pay the net to the radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15978 COMMISSIONER del VAL: One of the letters that you have attached is from BDO Dunwoody.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15979 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15980 COMMISSIONER del VAL: You confirmed that you have $217,600 in written revenue commitments for programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15981 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15982 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Where did you include that in your first year revenue, in the national $318,000?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15983 MR. McNABB: Yes, that $217,600 is part of the $318,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15984 So we have 100 to go.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15985 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15986 MR. McNABB: But this is a good point. How many applicants have you seen, in any format, in any city, in any hearing, that have 48 percent of their revenues on the books a year in advance of going on the air?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15987 This is the strength of this business model. This is the strength of demand, why these programmers were on my station before Centario and CHUM/CTVglobemedia dropped them like a hot potato.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15988 We don't speak from hypotheses about what we might do; we speak on what we have done, and they are coming back in spades and committing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15989 COMMISSIONER del VAL: We are nearing the end of the financials, which is great.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15990 The large amount of spoken word programming that you have, usually spoken word programming is associated with very high costs for production, because of staffing needs and all, and yet your budget for the programming expenses and the staffing needs seems a bit low.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15991 Can you explain that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15992 I think you have given me an inkling on a lot of ‑‑ you are relying on quite a bit of volunteer staff, but I need to hear it from you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15993 MR. McNABB: Oh, this is where it's fun. Whereas these broadcasters have to pay their people to work for them, our people pay us. It's a beautiful business model.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15994 James Dobson of "Focus on the Family" pays us to be on the air.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15995 Chuck Swindoll of "Insight for Living" pays us to be on the air.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15996 What about local? Pastor Bob at XYZ Community Church isn't paying us to be on the air; what he is doing is, he is taking, let's say, a one and a half hour shift, and he is doing two or two and a half hours of preparation for it, but he gets a platform, and people will say, "Hey, this Pastor Bob ain't a half‑bad guy. It sounds like he really knows what he is talking about. I am going to check out his church next Sunday."
LISTNUM 1 \l 15997 He gets the exposure. That way he isn't selling for his church; no, he is addressing the topics of the day from a faith‑based perspective.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15998 It is a great "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" relationship, and it doesn't cost us a red cent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15999 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16000 I took my Chair's advice when she said "Never say it's the last question." I said it was the tail end, I never said it was the last.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16001 I want to go back to ‑‑ you have a line item here that says ‑‑ and I think I have covered it ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 16002 The $318,240 is net of agency commissions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16003 Yes, I got those numbers to jibe. I don't need to ask that any more.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16004 Let's move on to the technical questions, which are easier.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16005 We have all received the letter from Industry Canada severely cutting your maximum power from your proposed over 12,000 to 4,300.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16006 My first question is: Have you had a chance to calculate yet what would be your average power now that the maximum is 4.39?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16007 MR. McNABB: In terms of maximum average power, we talked about coverage, and I got an e‑mail from Doug McCauley, our engineer, on December 11th, who stated what the radius would be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16008 Because of that last‑minute situation with the CBC complaining about the parameters, yes, we had to pull back.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16009 Doug has identified the radius for the signal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16010 We talked about distance, so we could see what populations we would be covering.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16011 So, no, we didn't do another technical brief to determine what the average power would be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16012 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay. What is the radius?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16013 I was getting all ready to type it in, but can you file that for us?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16014 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16015 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Do you have a revised contour?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16016 MR. McNABB: No, we haven't done a revised contour, for one specific reason ‑‑ there are a number of alternatives. We can keep on the CTV tower. We can keep the 96.7 signal, it is just a matter of where the antenna ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 16017 I don't speak strongly to matters technical, but where the directional signal is pointed, we happen to point in one direction ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 16018 For example, Don Conway doesn't have any problems. He is not too far different, but he has the population contours that we would be happy to run with if we were licensed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16019 I have no problem with taking the exact contours that he has, if you decided: Okay, the City of Kawartha Lakes needs a big signal for a big area, and we will give Don something else over in Peterborough.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16020 Obviously, I am speaking hypothetically, of course.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16021 That said, we can slice this a number of ways. We can achieve the population coverage of our original brief with different technical modifications.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16022 I am fully confident, based on my discussions with Doug ‑‑ although this pulls it back, because that was something that the CBC could wrap their minds around, saying, "Okay, if that isn't going to interfere with us, we can live with it."
LISTNUM 1 \l 16023 But we know, because of Don ‑‑ and he is coming from the CTV tower, too ‑‑ that we can definitely achieve the same City of Kawartha Lakes population coverage, or greater, with another brief, but we would ask the kindness of your permission to do that subject to licensing, because of the fact that it still has to go through the approvals of the other parties anyway.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16024 So let's spend the money if we get licensed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16025 Is that okay? Does that detract from our case?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16026 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I will ask legal counsel whether that is acceptable, to do the revised contour and technical brief upon licensing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16027 MS SMITH: We will have to contemplate that, but we will get back to you at the reply stage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16028 MR. McNABB: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16029 MS SMITH: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16030 COMMISSIONER del VAL: The bottom line for us here is that you believe you will hit the same population base and numbers, and therefore you believe it will not negatively impact your business case.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16031 MR. McNABB: Yes, with a new parameter. This one was just a temporary measure to get the CBC to say, "All right. Hands off. We can live with that," but we know there are other solutions on the same tower, with the same frequency, which will give us the same population coverage or greater.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16032 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16033 We can move on to CCD now. I know you covered that in the deficiency response.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16034 It is a $500 over and above contribution, 20 percent of that to FACTOR, and for the $400 your response is that you will finance musical production of new and emerging artists from the 64 Kawartha Lakes City churches.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16035 Now I don't know whether you have had a chance to take a look at the Commercial Radio Policy of 2006. In paragraph 108 in that policy it sets out the eligible CCD initiatives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16036 With respect to emerging artists and all we need to have a better idea of what kind of initiatives ‑‑ for example, is it talent contests ‑‑ what kind of initiatives you will use to fund the emerging artists. So can you elaborate on that, what are the initiatives that you propose?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16037 MR. McNABB: Yes. I have paragraph 108 right in front of me too, so there you go.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16038 Now I would like to refer you to the 5‑point plan in the application, Commissioner, which I believe is section 7.3 under "Cultural diversity," where the Commission asked for us to address diversity in the following areas, employment practices, news, music. So let's just go through these things.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16039 Number one, commitment to local artists for recording purposes, bringing the best local talent together to record annually.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16040 Well, with 63‑64‑65 churches in the City of Kawartha Lakes, that is more than all the bars and nightclubs put together. That is a source of musical talent that rehearses and plans and produces more than anybody else of any other genre in the city in quantum with the number of people involved. So with that, there is a heck of a lot of undiscovered talent who can bring a strong degree of professionalism.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16041 So what we want to do ‑‑ I know that the pat answer is oh, yeah, we will do a CD. But look at this. We are talking about an emerging industry here. The whole Christian broadcasting industry, whether it is music or talk, is in its infancy. We aim to grow it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16042 So what we want to do is create the Kawartha Gospel choir. And what we will do, we will hold an annual concert about this time of year, November‑December, down at the Academy Theatre that we rent for $1,000, and what we are going to do, we are going to take the best talent and bring them together as a mass choir.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16043 We are going to have individual soloists, duets, trios and then a whole group of them, whether it's 20 of them, 30 of them, 40 of them, how many we can get that will muster the quality that we are looking for.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16044 And then you know what we are going to do? We are going to record right there at the Academy Theatre so as people walk out they can order CDs as gift items for that very situation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16045 So we will spend money as an honorarium for the singers in quantum, give them their gas money to drive down from Bobcaygeon or Fenelon Falls. We will be producing the CDs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16046 And you know what? We are all doing it from a cash‑positive perspective. Why? We get the orders as people are going out. We can do the final post‑production in the studio over the next three days and send the CDs out to their doorstep within 10 days.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16047 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Okay. So just to clarify, is this just for the Kawartha Lakes Gospel Choir that you are going to create or is it for all other emerging artists?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16048 Like how would ‑‑ if I were an emerging artist in Kawartha Lakes, how would I get the funding? Like do I apply, do I apply to you, do I apply to a third party, how would you select me?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16049 MR. McNABB: Okay. We will be seeking you out. We will be at the churches on Sunday morning or Sunday evening services talking about this or we will be at choir practice on Thursday night and saying, listen, we want to foster the emergence of new talent here, because if it is local it is going to resonate.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16050 So quite simply, we are going to invite them to be part of the choir, they can be part of the ‑‑ they can be a soloist, they can sing en masse, whatever works best, but we are ready and willing to go.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16051 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Okay. So is it basically funding for the choir and you are going to invite emerging artists and maybe others with talent or without to come join the choir, then your initiative will be to fund them and make the CDs of the choir?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16052 MR. McNABB: Yes, but there may be an outstanding soloist at a church. Well, quite simply, we will give them an opportunity if they want for a solo on that CD. You can easily put 20 songs on a CD and you will definitely, without question, be able to showcase the variety of instrumental and vocal talent that is in the City of Kawartha Lakes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16053 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Okay, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16054 Now in the event that the initiatives that you describe are not eligible, where would you like the money to go?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16055 MR. McNABB: We would just give it to FACTOR.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16056 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Okay, great. Thanks.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16057 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Those are my questions. Thank you for your patience. Thank you for your time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16058 MR. McNABB: Thank you for your patience, I appreciate it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16059 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Menzies has a couple of questions for you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16060 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: I am just curious to follow up on your business model in terms of your revenue from ‑‑ I understand the need for people to read obituaries and when they can't read them anymore, to hear them but I don't understand ‑‑ here are the issues that I wanted to address.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16061 The Kawartha Lakes area has some community websites operating now who are attempting to fill the news void left, I guess, when ‑‑ that people have spoken about. How are you going to charge people for something they can kind of get for free on there, especially given media consumption trends going towards the internet? That is sort of one part of it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16062 The other thing is, on the same line ‑‑ I am not thinking now but down the line ‑‑ focus on the Family Dobson. I can pop open his website here and I can click on it and I can listen to it, right, and if I want, I can buy the CDs right off his website. Why isn't that trend just going to continue, which has me wondering why you wouldn't just do the same thing in terms of creating a web presence for this?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16063 And the last part of that is in terms of the participation levels you talked about ‑‑ this is sort of separate but I will give you both questions at once if you want to write it down ‑‑ the participation levels from pastors in the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16064 In terms of advertising, first of all, churches, even really big ones, don't typically have much money for advertising ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 16065 MR. McNABB: That is right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16066 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: ‑‑ because they like to give it to the poor and stuff, right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16067 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16068 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: They do at mine anyway and it is not always deemed the best use of money by the elders and by the board.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16069 And the personnel themselves are very busy men and women. They have weddings to do, they have baptisms to do, they have hands to hold, they have funerals to do, they have families in crisis, they have tons of pastoral care to do, they have sermons to write. They are social workers, everything like that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16070 Isn't it a bit of an imposition on them to draw them into a commercial enterprise like this?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16071 MR. McNABB: Okay. In terms of advertising?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16072 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Well, one is the advertising and one is ‑‑ I got a sense that you were going to ask for a lot of participation levels from them into these things.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16073 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16074 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: I can understand a lot of enthusiasm at the front end ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 16075 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16076 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: ‑‑ but I can also imagine two or three years down the road, you know, sorry, Andy, I don't have time, I have got a widow to take care of.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16077 MR. McNABB: That is right. And you know what? You are going to get into that without question. Pastors are some of the most overworked people, period. Forget about work for the pay. I am just talking about work, period. These people are heavily worked.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16078 So what happens is we are giving them a platform to do something that they have never been able to do before. Why? Their mission is outreach and instead of one‑to‑one, going over to Mrs. Jones' place or Mr. Smith's place, they are going now one‑to‑thousands and as a result this helps make the church smarter because when a local church has a program or a local pastor is heard regularly, what happens is people start going to that church. They start dropping money into the collection plate. Well, money means resources of time, people, materials, et cetera.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16079 So there is a very direct cause and effect relationship to them coming on the air, to more people coming into the church and in the level of giving going up at that church, which can be used to fund part‑time staff or other outreach, which makes the whole church more effective and have a greater outreach, which is what they are called to do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16080 In terms of advertising, you are right. Look at, you know, the newspaper, literally since the 1800s, has had it made with those insipid little come worship with us ads, you know, at Cambridge Street United Church, 123 Cambridge Street, services at 9:30 and 11:00.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16081 Well, you know what? That gives me no reason as to why I should come to your church, Pastor. You have got to tell me why I should come to your church, how am I going to grow, what separates your church from anybody else.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16082 Well, quite simply, that is why we are going to teach the church how to better position themselves. It is not who you are, what you do and where we can find you. It is about the compelling message of Christ the Saviour. What are you preaching about this weekend, let's talk about it, and that is how you advertise because people will say, hey, that resonates with me, I'm going in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16083 So that is how it is done there in terms of the advertising and the exchange and we will always be cultivating new talk shows. I want to have a stable. I want to have three people deep for every day. So if Pastor Bob has to officiate at a funeral, maybe church board member Frank can be there or church board member Mary can be the host. You go deep. Every space shuttle has a backup crew. Well, we are not just going two deep, we are going three deep for everyone.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16084 Andy, does that mean you are going to always be cultivating a crew of three every day? You betcha we are because it makes us stronger and doesn't leave us vulnerable. Pretty easy to do with 63‑64‑65 churches in the City of Kawartha Lakes because we are not just relying on the pastor, we are relying on passionate Christians who walk their talk, who will be trained and developed by us as we go along.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16085 So we definitely anticipate burnout, scheduling conflicts. That is why we are going three deep every single day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16086 Now let's talk about the internet. Wow! You betcha the internet is going and it is playing an increasing role. Now, how can we leverage that? How can we make that effective from an outreach point of view to bring spiritual comfort to the people of the City of Kawartha Lakes? And because we are a business we have got to pay the bills. How can we monetize it without those trends cannibalizing what we are doing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16087 Well, it is all about being ubiquitous. Quite simply, you are not going to catch James Dobson on the internet everywhere. You have got to sit down, you have got to type it in, you have got to sit at your desk and listen. You are not going to do that for 30 minutes at a time, just sit there and listen to James Dobson.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16088 Radio is a portable medium. We are portable people and as a result we are going everywhere you are. That program is there, plus we are going to be able just to link it right through Dobson's website, a link right on our website, obviously, that they know they don't have to find out each individual broadcast ministry but there is a direct link if they want. Hey, you are only able to catch the last 15 minutes of the program, you thought it was good, go to our website if you want to sit down and listen to it, it will be right there or we will be playing it back this evening as well. So that is a good thing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16089 What about in memoriams? It is the same thing. It is all about ubiquity. You have to ‑‑ you know, most people don't allow you to surf the net at work for personal business. So you don't want to check up on who is dead and who is not by waiting till you go home, and on your nice slow dial‑up ‑‑ because they don't have broadband in Dunsford or in Kinmount or in Bobcaygeon or in points in between, they have dial‑up, hoo‑ha! And so as a result you don't want to get on there and wait for it to come up, and if a lot of people are online that just doesn't work.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16090 Well, quite simply, we are going everywhere they are. They can jump out in the car on their lunch hour, turn on the radio or turn on the radio at their desk if they are working through lunch, and there it is, at noon hour they have got the in memoriam funeral announcements, and right in the 5:00‑6:00 hour, there it is, the in memoriam funeral announcements.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16091 We have got it all over the internet. I don't care how fast or how big it grows, we have got pre‑emptive advantage and we can leverage that for our own internet presence right across the City of Kawartha Lakes. Ain't no problem!
LISTNUM 1 \l 16092 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16093 THE CHAIRPERSON: I want to know, Mr. McNabb, how many hours you are going to be on the air.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 16094 MR. McNABB: I will sign the cheques, thank you very much. I will collect them too.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16095 THE CHAIRPERSON: I just have a couple of cleanup questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16096 Your target demo is 50+?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16097 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16098 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you have a core target demographic group within that 50+ large demo that you are targeting?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16099 MR. McNABB: It is a wide 50+ for the very specific reason that as we get older our focus becomes a little more clear on where our eternal destination might be. As a result, the giving, the purchases to the ‑‑ the giving to these national Christian talk ministries actually increases with age.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16100 They are empty‑nesters, they have got more discretionary income, they have taken semi‑retirement, early retirement, full retirement. As a result, these people are not subject to the recessionary charges. So the older it gets, the better it is for us and that is why these people want to be back on board in the City of Kawartha Lakes because it was one of the oldest markets when I had the station and it is only getting older today.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16101 THE CHAIRPERSON: But if you had to define the median age of your average listener?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16102 MR. McNABB: I remember that question from monitoring the other thing. I am right with you. Fifty percent of our listeners are going to be under 60, 50 percent of them are going to be over 60.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16103 THE CHAIRPERSON: And will it skew male or female?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16104 MR. McNABB: You are pretty close, 50‑50, 55‑45, in the local news, everything. You are going to be right dang on. Because we are going to be focusing a lot on issues of home, heart, health and pocketbook as it relates to faith‑based perspective, you are looking at pretty much a 50‑50 distribution.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16105 THE CHAIRPERSON: As far as the musical component of your proposal, will you accept a condition of licence that no less than 95 percent of your weekly music will be from sub‑category 35, which is, of course, non‑classic religious?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16106 MR. McNABB: Yes. Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16107 THE CHAIRPERSON: Seven hours of Canadian national spoken word, you said it is not developed yet?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16108 MR. McNABB: Well, no, in terms ‑‑ the industry in Canada is in its infancy. It has been 14 years and all the Christian broadcasters when they were applying for licences were scared about balance. They didn't want to create any red herring and risk a possible denial, so they said we will do music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16109 Well, quite frankly, the word of God is ministered through music and through preaching and teaching, isn't it? So it is about time somebody stepped up to the plate.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16110 So with ‑‑ if you could rephrase the question, my train of thought just derailed and I apologize.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16111 THE CHAIRPERSON: I just want to know is this your initiative, are you going to be producing the national spoken‑word programming with any other Canadian religious broadcasters? If not, if it is your own initiative, do you have plans to distribute this programming to other Canadian Christian broadcasters?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16112 We want to get more of a feel for what this Canadian national spoken‑word programming is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16113 MR. McNABB: Sure. What we want to do out of the Canadian programs ‑‑ and let me just turn to some reference notes here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16114 MR. McNABB: Okay, just to give you a sample of what is out there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16115 Perry Rockwood, on 1,000 programs a week ‑‑ a good Halifax boy ‑‑ Perry's "Prophecy for Today" programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16116 "100 Huntley Street" produced a couple of hundred radio programs that they run in rotation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16117 There is not a lot out there. So yes, we hope that Pastor Bob in our talk show might develop something that we might have originally, maybe a nationally syndicated talk show. Wouldn't that be wonderful, that we can create homegrown talent! Nobody else is taking the initiative. We are sure game.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16118 So we are happy to develop national content that we can share with other Christian stations and build this industry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16119 THE CHAIRPERSON: In the event that you cannot ‑‑ for some unforeseen reason it is just not possible ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 16120 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16121 THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ to develop these seven hours of Canadian national spoken word, how will you fill those seven hours on your schedule?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16122 MR. McNABB: You know what those seven hours are? It's two half‑hour programs a day back‑to‑back in the afternoon. So we take Pastor Bob's sermon from last Sunday, we edit it down and package it up into ‑‑ well, they edit it down and package it up. The onus is always on them, even when we carried the Sunday morning God Squad on CKLY when I owned it, and as a result we have two churches back‑to‑back, either with their message or Pastor Bob might want to speak on a message, and out of 65 churches, having two half‑hour programs a day is easy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16123 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that would be considered then local programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16124 MR. McNABB: You betcha.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16125 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16126 One final question and it really is a final question because it does have to do with the frequency issue.
MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16127 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would you accept an approval in part authorization that would say ‑‑essentially, what approval in part means is yes, we like your idea, go for it but you also have to find another frequency, not 96.7?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16128 MR. McNABB: We will accept whatever you give us because we can make it work, without question. I made the mistake of saying no in the 2000 hearing and I didn't end up with anything in Toronto. So I have learned my lesson. So yes, we will take anything you give us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16129 However, let's always remember ‑‑ the greatest need. There is only one signal, one frequency that can cover off the majority of the population of the City of Kawartha Lakes with already acceptable parameters like Don Conway's or any endless number of permutations and combinations. So we know 96.7 can work within accepted parameters that won't cause interference to anybody.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16130 But we did outline those ‑‑ we did outline alternative frequencies, as I had put into my interventions against the Peterborough broadcasters, where Doug McCaulay had provided his comments on 1‑2‑3‑4‑5‑6‑7‑8‑9‑10‑11 frequencies and that there are many frequencies that can cover off 75,000 or more people from Peterborough but there is only one frequency that can cover just a majority of those 75,000 and that is 96.7.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16131 So yes, we will take whatever you give us but I really hope the CRTC decides to level the very unbalanced playing field, with seven licensees with big monster signals that are owned by CHUM and Corus already, and allow the City of Kawartha Lakes to have something that is capable of reaching out.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16132 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. McNabb.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16133 MR. McNABB: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16134 THE CHAIRPERSON: Legal Counsel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16135 MS SMITH: I have a few additional follow‑up questions for you, Mr. McNabb.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16136 Following your conversation with Commissioner del Val related to you not orienting your programming to Peterborough, I would like you to confirm your adherence to the following as a condition of licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16137 That the station will not identify itself on the basis that includes reference to Peterborough?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16138 MR. McNABB: We will abide by that one hundred percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16139 MS SMITH: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16140 The station will not include in its programming coverage of local news, sports and events of direct and particular relevance to Peterborough?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16141 MR. McNABB: We will be happy to abide by that one hundred percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16142 MS SMITH: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16143 The station will not include in its surveillance reports any reference to Peterborough?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16144 MR. McNABB: We will be happy to abide by that one hundred percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16145 MS SMITH: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16146 The station will not include, in its surveillance reports, any reference to Peterborough.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16147 MR. McNABB: We will be happy to abide by that 100 per cent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16148 MS SMITH: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16149 I have some additional questions for you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16150 I have a copy here of your oral presentation which includes several documents in support of your application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16151 Can you confirm which of these documents were submitted in support of your application and which are new?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16152 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16153 Let's take them in order right from the top down. All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16154 Our MP, Barry Devolin says:
"I will support any application as the new radio station to the market. I believe this community needs a distinctive voice for ..." (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 16155 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. McNabb ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 16156 MR. McNABB: You don't need to actually ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 16157 THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ you don't need to read them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16158 MR. McNABB: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16159 THE CHAIRPERSON: We just need to know, of these that you ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 16160 MR. McNABB: Barry Devolin, intervention filed in November.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16161 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16162 MR. McNABB: Okay. Max Radiff, December 11th. This was a comment filed for this very purpose to present to you today.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16163 Okay? Follow me there?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16164 MS SMITH: Yes, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16165 MR. McNABB: Okay? All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16166 Barb Kelly. Barb's intervention is filed on the CRTC site.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16167 Rick McGee, the Mayor, his intervention is filed on the CRTC site.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16168 Rick Schenk, the principal of Heritage Christian School, his intervention is filed on the CRTC site.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16169 The People's Gospel Hour, Perry Rockwood, his intervention is filed on the CRTC site.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16170 One of the ministers, Gerry Organ, his intervention is filed on the CRTC site.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16171 Eagle‑Com Marketing, Catherine Robertson, her intervention is filed on the CRTC site.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16172 Then the last thing is the highlighted excerpts from that broadcast dialogue about Elmer Hildebrand.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16173 MS SMITH: That one is new as well?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16174 MR. McNABB: Yes. That wasn't an intervention, that was just purely for purposes of illustration here today.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16175 MS SMITH: In the interests of procedural fairness, Mr. McNabb, I'm sorry, but we won't be able to accept any new documents on the record. I just wanted to advise you of that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16176 MR. McNABB: That's fine.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16177 MS SMITH: All right, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16178 Just some additional questions here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16179 Will you undertake to file any agreement relevant to the operation of your station and with respect to the control of your radio station for funding with the Commission as they come into existence in the future?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16180 This is what Commissioner del Val was referring to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16181 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16182 MS SMITH: Okay. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16183 Last question: Can you please confirm that you will agree to a condition of licence with respect to your CCD over and above contribution, $500 for years 1 to 4 and $1,000 for years 5 to 7?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16184 MR. McNABB: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16185 MS SMITH: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16186 Thank you very much, Mr. McNabb. Those are my questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16187 MR. McNABB: Thank you all.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16188 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. McNabb, you have two minutes to give us your final pitch.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16189 MR. McNABB: Two minutes!
LISTNUM 1 \l 16190 THE CHAIRPERSON: Two minutes.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 16191 MR. McNABB: There is something about a day of like 1,000 years, so what would two minutes get us?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16192 Okay. So why? Why? Why?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16193 This radio station application, out of every one of the 10 applications all competing for 96.7 is the only local station to deliver local news every hour, every day around the clock. We have walked the talk on it. Ruth Corley's(ph) letter in my intervention to Scott Jackson and the November 15th response says: We did it with those resources then, we can do it now. Twice daily death notices coming back.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16194 The only local voice that any Peterborough station or City of Kawartha Lakes station could ever have. We are the ones doing it, because that is what radio is all about.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16195 A chimpanzee, he can be trained to press "Play" on a CD player. What makes a radio station a winner is localization. When they are spinning songs, 60 per cent of them are American or British or otherwise. When we are playing talk programs, only ‑‑ what is it, 49 per cent of them are American.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16196 Hey, we believe in predominantly Canadian, which we certainly are, meeting the full objectives of the religious broadcasting policy, and out of that Canadian we are predominantly local.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16197 Why? Because it works. The more you can resonate with your community, the better.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16198 So let's remember, Peterborough, a 75,000‑person city, seven licences; City of Kawartha Lakes, 75,000‑person city, one licence. What's there? What does the Broadcasting Act make of all that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16199 We need to make sure that there is a diverse voice. I know that phrase is used ad infinitum, but boy oh boy, you don't get much more diverse or distinct than this format relative to any of the other nine before you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16200 That being the case, you know that there is a hunger for local news, because that's why we build a 24 per cent share of hours tuned on an AM with an inferior signal and the big monster FM signals today still don't turn a 24 per cent share of hours tuned in either Peterborough or Lindsay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16201 What are they doing wrong? They don't know how to localize. We do. We have walked the talk. Let's bring it back because people appreciate it. You have heard from the people in their interventions, let's bring it all back because we have a great opportunity now to provide a fulfilment of the religious broadcasting police and this opportunity will be gone if you don't licence us, FM 96.7.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16202 I can conclude quite simply with that and I thank you very much for your time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16203 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. McNabb, very much for your participation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16204 MR. McNABB: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16205 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will now take a 15‑minute break.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16206 Thank you.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1111 / Suspension à 1111
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1130 / Reprise à 1130
LISTNUM 1 \l 16207 THE SECRETARY: We will now proceed with Item 16 which is an application by Anderson Parish Media Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Kawartha Lakes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16208 The new station would operate on frequency 96.7, Channel 224A, with an effective radiated power of 3000 watts, nondirectional antenna, antenna height of 77.2 metres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16209 Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Raymond McMurray.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16210 Mr. McMurray, you have 20 minutes to make your presentation.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 16211 MR. McMURRAY: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16212 Before I start, I want to ...
‑‑‑ Off microphone / Hors microphone
LISTNUM 1 \l 16213 MR. McMURRAY: ... because I feel I have to so that we are all comfortable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16214 I am physically disabled. I am actually deaf. I fell out of a bucket truck from the 60‑foot level onto a concrete sidewalk in 2002, causing a lot of damage, most of which I have recovered from.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16215 But there is one problem I have that I may never recover from, and that is I have no perception of distance and I have no perception of volume. As I'm speaking to you now, I'm hearing myself. My brain has told me that that's the level that I can hear at.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16216 When you speak to me, you will be coming out of that speaker. My brain switches and there is a delay. I have no idea what is going on behind me, but if someone coughs my brain, if it is above the threshold of that speaker, will make an adjustment. It shuts off the speaker and expects the fellow to cough again. If that doesn't happen and the speaker is on or I am speaking, my brain will switch back. It's a conscious/subconscious thing that the neurologists are working on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16217 I am a lot better than I used to be; I will never be perfect again. I hide it well in social situations, but I don't think I can hide it here, otherwise I would.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16218 Madam Chair, Commissioners and staff, I want to thank you very much for having me here today. This application is very important to me and important to the City of Kawartha Lakes. You have reviewed the application, so I will avoid, as much as possible, reciting the facts you already are aware of.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16219 Since I'm being asked to briefly and clearly highlight what I consider to be the most important points of my application, let me briefly refer to the following points.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16220 The City of Kawartha Lakes has one local radio station with 17.5 per cent market share. A high 82.5 per cent out‑of‑market tuning problem exists in the City of Kawartha Lakes. There is no local radio choice or program diversity except out‑of‑market tuning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16221 Emerging artists and Canadian content. FACTOR is okay, but so is local.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16222 Demographic shift is towards the City of Kawartha Lakes as a retirement community. Who are these 45‑plus people moving to the City of Kawartha Lakes? 96.7 is the best frequency for the City of Kawartha Lakes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16223 New‑FM will not be competing with the current licensee which programs to a younger demographic with its larger, more regional signal in the Kawartha Lakes area, including Peterborough.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16224 New‑FM will help grow the City of Kawartha Lakes local radio market which now tunes to out‑of‑market stations. Unfortunately, 82.5 per cent of the radio listening residents prefer an out‑of‑market radio station because one local station simply cannot serve both the young and the older demographic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16225 The current licensee programs successfully to a younger audience with their BOB FM format. New‑FM will program successfully to the older demographic. Half of the city's population is 45‑plus. They are under served in the City of Kawartha Lakes and they are New‑FM's target demographic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16226 The proposed new radio station will repatriate listeners back to local radio by presenting timely, relevant community‑centred local news and information that is important to our community's older residents, our 17.5 hours per broadcast week of newscasts, made up of 80 per cent local and regional content.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16227 This point alone will help provide relief from the isolation many older residents feel when denied news of local events. As we speak here today, over 50‑plus people get their local news at any one of the six Tim Hortons locations in the City of Kawartha Lakes. That is a reality.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16228 To further repatriate the process, New‑FM will introduce an easy listening, middle‑of‑the‑road format which consists of musical styles that are currently getting little radio exposure in the area. The mix is soft in nature, which a minimum 80/20 vocal/instrumental mix. However, 75 per cent of the hours during the broadcast week will have a 55/45 per cent vocal/instrumental mix.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16229 This format was researched and tested in the marketplace and has proven to be the format most likely to repatriate the older radio listener to the local market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16230 Emerging artists will contribute to variety and programming diversity on this easy listening station. Emerging artists are plentiful, but few have had the hits most radio stations look for. Since we are not hit‑oriented radio, our easy listening format can present unknown and lesser known artists without a negative response from listeners.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16231 With a minimum of 20 per cent of our Canadian content being provided by emerging artists, plus the addition of international emerging artists, we can achieve a high level of programming diversity and variety that our format must present to avoid a high level of music repetition and avoid sounding like an oldies station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16232 Beyond airplay, we will have all emerging artist CDs we program available for sale. We have a budget of $500 each year 1 through 5, and $1,000 each year 6 and 7, to purchase emerging artist CDs for resale at the station. We will promote the availability of these CDs on a regular basis.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16233 FACTOR and MUSICACTION is a great national program and we are happy to help. Our CCD commitment, as outlined in our application, is $2,500 each year 1 to 5, and $3,000 each year 6 and 7. The breakdown is 20 per cent to FACTOR or MUSICACTION, which equals $900. The balance of $1,600 will go to the Lindsay Concert Foundation, where each dollar is matched by the Ontario Arts Council, making it a total of $3,200, therefore doubling our investment towards our local emerging artists through a bursary program administered by the Foundation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16234 The key word here is "local". Maybe, just maybe, we will be lucky enough to save a talented arts‑oriented individual from becoming just another "wannabe" NHL hockey player.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16235 The proposed new radio station will contribute to the success and the growth of local businesses serving older residents. These businesses must have a vehicle to reach their perspective customers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16236 Because the older demographic is currently under served by media, promoting to the older demographic is difficult, ineffective and unaffordable without media that targets this demographic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16237 It is important to emphasize that the proposed new radio station will target only the older residents of the city and the businesses that wish to serve them. Because of the demographic shift towards the City of Kawartha Lakes as an attractive retirement community, builders have opened six subdivisions, building and quickly selling homes to new 50‑plus persons moving to the area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16238 New local businesses catering to this demographic are moving here as well. This trend will continue and the baby‑boomers discover the Kawartha Lakes area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16239 Who are these 45‑plus people moving to the City of Kawartha Lakes?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16240 They are affluent people with high disposable income. This income is a regular payment each month without having to go out the door each morning to earn it. The basic new homes they buy are expensive to begin with, and then the new residents add an average $35,000 in upgrades.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16241 They spend more money furnishing these homes than the average local would. They spend money servicing these homes by hiring services such as lawn care, snow removal, painting, et cetera.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16242 They are people with a lot of time available to do what they want when they want to do it. They have dinner out a lot and they spend more money doing it than the local people do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16243 In the last two years four new businesses have opened and are successful looking after these people's fingernails. This sort of thing was absolutely unheard of a few years ago. They are people who expect more from the businesses they deal with, such as retailers, restaurants and services.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16244 Shopper's Drug Mart and Pharmasave have built four huge stores in Lindsay alone, each with large amounts of floor space devoted to luxury items never before available in the area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16245 They are people who have changed the way things are done in the City of Kawartha Lakes. For instance, all the new car showrooms have been upgraded or replaced. The Loblaws store is so large you expect to see people on roller skates stocking the shelves, and you do. The products and services they provide must be considered upscale, to say the least.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16246 In the expansive fresh fish department, the variety, the quantity and the quality of the products that they sell every day was not available just a few years ago.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16247 These people brought their GTA lifestyle with them. They must be catered to. Local businesses are adjusting. New‑FM targeting this demographic can help.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16248 I could go on and on, but you know, you should have the idea by now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16249 96.7 is the best frequency for the City of Kawartha Lakes. The city covers an area of 3,059 square kilometres, with a population of 74,561. That is from the Census 2006. There is no licensed AM station and one licensed FM station. This FM station also covers and markets in Peterborough.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16250 The City of Peterborough covers an area of 58.4 square kilometres with a population of 74,878. With a population of only 317 more people, Peterborough has one AM and nine FM stations serving it, if you are into the CBC stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16251 Does Peterborough really need another radio station? We're not sure. But we are sure that the City of Kawartha Lakes does.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16252 The Peterborough AM station, which is currently successful in the entire Kawartha Lakes are on AM 980, wishes to convert to the FM band, as well as expand its coverage area using 96.7.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16253 Anderson Parish Media is sympathetic towards the AM to FM conversion only and would suggest that using an alternate frequency should be explored once again by Corus. An alternate frequency could very well allow Corus to convert from AM to FM without erosion to its current marketing area. The City of Kawartha Lakes could then use 96.7 for a clear, interference‑free signal within its borders for a second station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16254 I wish to be upfront with the Panel, and in the interest of fairness to all the other applicants at this hearing I should tell you that I retained Elder Engineering to review other possible frequencies for the City of Kawartha Lakes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16255 It should be possible for New‑FM to cover the City of Kawartha Lakes with alternate frequencies using a repeater. A two‑transmitter arrangement would be an inconvenience, however this inconvenience will not outweigh the importance of covering the entire city.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16256 I feel it is in the public interest to licence New‑FM to serve the under served 50‑plus radio listener in the City of Kawartha Lakes.
I thank you for your time today and I appreciate this opportunity to speak with you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16257 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. McMurray. Please do let me know if I need to adjust the volume when I am speaking in order to enable you to hear me more clearly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16258 MR. McMURRAY: Thank you. I read your lips, so I can get away with a lot here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16259 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good, because I need to look down at my notes every once in a while.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16260 MR. McMURRAY: That's fine.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16261 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to speak firstly about your format. We know, based on your oral presentation this morning that you are targeting a 50‑plus demographic. Do you have a core audience within that 50‑plus that you are specifically targeting?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16262 The other part of that question is: What is the median of your average listener?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16263 MR. McMURRAY: The core audience is actually 55‑plus and probably the medium age will be 55‑plus.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16264 Our format will leak down to the 45‑plus group of people. Keep in mind that every year they get closer to our medium.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16265 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is a challenge in targeting an older demographic when it comes to advertisers. We hear this repeated at both television and radio hearings, that while they have a disposable income, while they are mobile, that target group, advertisers just haven't bought in yet.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16266 Do you have evidence that counters that argument?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16267 MR. McMURRAY: What I did was, I hired Tudman(ph) Research from Pembroke and I asked him to do a survey of businesses in the City of Kawartha Lakes and also do a survey of residents in Kawartha Lakes to tell me what the best format might be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16268 The results show that they are pretty well getting everything they want from a radio station other than Lindsay. That's why we have the 82.5 per cent out‑of‑market tuning. Actually, most people are quite happy with that, believe it or not. They also have music on cable and then there is satellite.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16269 The results of that survey showed that to introduce an easy listening station would be the best bet to reduce the amount of out‑of‑market tuning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16270 What I also did was, we made up 100 cassettes of what easy listening music is all about and we distributed them, some of them at Tim Hortons. We got the name of the people, they listened to the cassettes. Some of them, we had to buy them cassette machines. The review was that they liked the music. Of course, they wouldn't know what the package was, it was just music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16271 It seemed to me that the overall perception of the cassette was, it wasn't noisy. So I felt quite comfortable proceeding with this application as a result of the survey and the distribution of those cassettes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16272 THE CHAIRPERSON: But because radio is much more dependent on retail advertising than national advertising, are there businesses in the Kawartha Lakes area that ‑‑ or are there enough businesses on the retail side in the Kawartha Lakes area that target an older demographic and are these advertisers willing to advertise on this station?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16273 MR. McMURRAY: Yes, there are and yes, they will.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16274 Businesses in the City of Kawartha Lakes are going through a major change, adjusting to the changing demographic and what comes along with that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16275 The people moving into the City of Kawartha Lakes are quite demanding. The people that will continue to move into the City of Kawartha Lakes will be of the same age group because, one, the City of Kawartha Lakes lacks jobs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16276 The City of Kawartha Lakes is not an industrial area. People who are younger and either work in Oshawa or they work in Peterborough. A number of Lindsay businesses have actually moved to Peterborough because Peterborough is a better facility for industry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16277 The fact of the matter is, and the City of Kawartha Lakes Council and business people have to realize, that people 50 plus the Kawartha Lakes new industry and they must provide the services that those people require.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16278 Many businesses have recognized that already and are doing their best to turn around. Many businesses from Peterborough and from Oshawa have relocated a branch in the City of Kawartha Lakes to cater to all these new people. Wal‑Mart is coming, Shoppers Drug Mart, beautiful store, I mean it is 10,000 square feet. I mean, you know, we used to play hockey in places like that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16279 So I feel very very confident that, as time goes on in the City of Kawartha Lakes, the existing businesses will get on board and new businesses will come to service these people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16280 THE CHAIRPERSON: And on that note, in terms of your revenues, you say that 50 per cent of your revenues will come from other media. What do you include in that line item of "other media?"
LISTNUM 1 \l 16281 MR. McMURRAY: The City of Kawartha Lakes at one time, until recently, had a daily newspaper and that daily newspaper was owned by the Peterborough Examiner. And they discovered that, really, as far as they are concerned they were going to merge the City of Kawartha Lakes with Peterborough and they will reinvent the Peterborough Examiner to cover both areas.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16282 In the interim, they have left a huge void for advertisers. The amount of flyers we get each week in the other newspaper, the one that is owned by Torstar I believe, is like an inch thick every Friday. The businesses don't have many options. The options that they do have do not target the 50 plus group of people very well, therefore a lot of their advertising dollar is wasted.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16283 The void left by Lindsay this week will be very very helpful to NEW‑FM. If we can encourage people to try NEW‑FM, I think we can discourage them from using flyers as much as they do. Flyers are effective, however, they don't target and so they are costly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16284 BOB‑FM is doing quite well with the younger audience and I expect there will be a little bit of overlap, but not much. As a matter of fact, if someone selling skateboards came to my radio station and wanted to run ads, I would suggest to them that there may be other avenues for them. I would take their money if they insisted, but I would suggest that maybe they should go to BOB‑FM and maybe try the newspapers. Selling skateboards on my radio station wouldn't work.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16285 However, if they are selling, believe it or not, baby clothes, two new baby clothes stores have opened in the City of Kawartha Lakes. Can't imagine this, because the locals only deal with Zellers. But who are the customers? First of all, the baby clothes are upscale and the customers are the 50 plus buying all this stuff for their grandchildren.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16286 The advertisers on BOB‑FM would get the locals, but I believe that these two new baby clothes stores would be better off advertising on NEW‑FM because their target really is grandma and grandpa that is prepared to overspend for pyjamas. More and more speciality stores like that are taking up shop in the City of Kawartha Lakes. More and more restaurants, we have discovered, have tablecloths for instance. It is a small thing, but obviously the market is demanding them to cater more to older people who have come to expect something a little bit better in the GTA.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16287 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would say that it is a grandparent's job to spoil their grandchildren.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16288 MR. McMURRAY: And they are doing it very well, by the way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16289 THE CHAIRPERSON: And aunts, to spoil their nieces. Anyway, I digress.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16290 One of the lines that is not included in terms of your sources of revenue is existing radio stations. Is it your position that you will not have any negative impact on BOB‑FM?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16291 MR. McMURRAY: I don't believe that NEW‑FM will have an impact on BOB‑FM that you could measure. I can't imagine someone that listens to my station listening to them. And I certainly can't imagine someone that listens to BOB‑FM bothering with us, we are just so different. So I would say it would be minimal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16292 However, there may be some businesses that would continue advertising on BOB‑FM and come to us as well. An example would be food stores and Canadian Tire. Canadian Tire isn't going to give up the younger audience so that they can advertise with me, they want to get the whole population. So I don't think BOB‑FM will hurt at all.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16293 THE CHAIRPERSON: And they would fall under the advertisers who would increase their advertising budget therefore ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 16294 MR. McMURRAY: That is right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16295 THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ to enable them to advertise on both you and BOB‑FM?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16296 MR. McMURRAY: Yes, they will. And there is also a saving because of the demise of the daily newspaper so, yes, they would.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16297 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, in terms of the blend of music that you are proposing, I understand soft in nature to appeal to that older demographic, and you are also including 20 per cent of your musical content will be instrumental music?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16298 MR. McMURRAY: M'hmm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16299 THE CHAIRPERSON: And you will ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 16300 MR. McMURRAY: Minimum of 20 per cent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16301 THE CHAIRPERSON: Will you accept that, therefore, as a condition of licence?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16302 MR. McMURRAY: Yes, I will.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16303 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16304 MR. McMURRAY: And by the way, because I know you are going to ask me later, I neglected to submit to you the instrumentals that will be playing, when you asked for a copy of the playlist, and so I brought it along here today. You will notice the playlist you have up there, there is no instrumentals, so where is Mr. McMurray getting this 50 per cent? Well here, this is the preliminary instrumental list and I will give it to you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16305 THE CHAIRPERSON: And I can see it is quite a thick deck, so I am sure you won't have any trouble meeting that 20 per cent therefore.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16306 MR. McMURRAY: That is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16307 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16308 Now, BOB‑FM isn't your only competition. Today, as well in your oral presentation, you said that in the Kawartha Lakes area 85 per cent of listeners listen to out‑of‑market radio stations, which is a huge percentage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16309 MR. McMURRAY: M'hmm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16310 THE CHAIRPERSON: What is going to be so compelling about NEW‑FM to enable it to repatriate this large percentage of out‑of‑market tuning?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16311 MR. McMURRAY: NEW‑FM will have local newscasts every half hour. NEW‑FM's local newscasts will be 80 per cent of the total news package. People in the City of Kawartha Lakes have a lot of trouble finding out what is going on in the City of Kawartha Lakes. BOB‑FM has a problem in telling them, because once this BOB‑FM is trying to market to Peterborough, as well as Lindsay, they have to maintain a pretty good balance otherwise they will turnoff the Peterborough market to turn on the Lindsay market and vice versa.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16312 We intend to broadcast news items to the people 45 plus. Any item that will affect them I consider news, and so we will be in the face of the City of Kawartha Lakes Council, community care, all the charitable groups and so on and so forth to get the volume of news that we need.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16313 Older people are sensitive to what is going on around them more than younger people. Our survey determined that young people couldn't care less what is going on in the City of Kawartha Lakes. They have got other things on their minds.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16314 An example would be if a senior citizen was jaywalking on the main street of Lindsay and was hit by a car and, coincidentally, World War III started the same day, we would have a problem with the lead story. An older person wouldn't, they want to know what is going on with the person that was hit on the main street and we had better tell them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16315 When you try to say go strictly with BM and run that route, all you are doing is alienating the local listener. Why? Because they can turn on CHEX‑TV, which does a great job in covering the entire Kawartha Lakes region. Although, they are hampered by the fact that they have to have a picture with every story and it takes them time to do that. Radio can be right there like that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16316 NEW‑FM will cover a lot of the things that most people would consider boring, not newsworthy and, quite frankly, not very sensational. But in order to maintain the listenership that we want, we have to cover those stories. An example, there was a story that came out of a meeting that I believe community care had a couple of weeks ago, talking about affordable housing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16317 I mean, it is pretty dry stuff and you can't fluff it up, I mean, it is just, you know. So why would you bother if you are trying to cater to a younger audience? You wouldn't. Do you think a senior citizen on a pension isn't interested in affordable housing? You bet they are. And so we would go into great detail. We would look at that story from a number of different angles, we would milk it to death.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16318 Why do we have news every half our? Well, you know, as you get older, you become quite forgetful. In my view, we are going to keep on reminding people of what is going on in the City of Kawartha Lakes. They are going to forget half of it and I know that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16319 So what maybe repetitious to us will not be repetitious to them. As the story unfolds, we will provide more detail and different angles and all that sort of thing. But what we are trying to do is inform the senior citizens, people over 45, and the only way we can do that is through repetition, but we can't bore them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16320 THE CHAIRPERSON: So not surprisingly, it is the localness of your station?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16321 MR. McMURRAY: Absolutely the localness.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16322 In my view ‑‑ I went to Canadian Tire and to RadioShack and they have sold a lot of satellite radio tuners. These things, you glue them to the windshield and they have got wires coming down, you plug them into the cigarette lighter, all this jazz. It is actually work to make these things work.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16323 However, if you are working and you are commuting an hour and a half to your work everyday, these things make perfect sense, in my view. When I drove up from Lindsay I had my satellite radio on. I have XM and Sirius, just got to know what these guys are doing. You know, that three‑hour trip is as good as a half hour. I mean, I can listen to CNN, I can listen to any genre I want. I am not going to get bored, it is fabulous.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16324 But for older people, I don't believe they will do it, no. Maybe when they buy their new car and the satellite radio comes with it, you know, already in the radio, no wires all over the place and all that stuff. It may be a different story down the road, but right now it is too much trouble.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16325 Most people over 45, definitely over 50, get their news in our area from CHEX and from Global News. They want to know what is going on. But Global News and CHEX can't cover everything and they definitely will not cover areas that are overly uneventful and that is just the way it is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16326 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are going to get into the details of the numbers as they relate to your spoken word programming, because in your application you are proposing a total of 19 hours of spoken word of which 17.5 are news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16327 MR. McMURRAY: M'hmm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16328 THE CHAIRPERSON: Does this 17.5 hours include surveillance material or is that just pure news?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16329 MR. McMURRAY: Yes, it does.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16330 THE CHAIRPERSON: It does include surveillance?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16331 MR. McMURRAY: Yes, it does.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16332 THE CHAIRPERSON: How much of the 17.5 is surveillance and, therefore, how much is just pure news?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16333 MR. McMURRAY: I would say surveillance ‑‑ we don't have any traffic in the City of Kawartha Lakes, by the way ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 16334 THE CHAIRPERSON: Lucky you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16335 MR. McMURRAY: ‑‑ no helicopters, none of that jazz. So our surveillance is a little on the light side. And even sports, senior citizens, you know, just tell them a few things. They want to know more about their grandchildren playing on the minor hockey team. That is sports for me, it is not what the Leafs are doing. But the weather is important.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16336 So the amount of surveillance is actually quite small, if it was 10 per cent, you know.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16337 THE CHAIRPERSON: And so let us go through the other categories. What about sports and coverage of community events and so on? What percentage would that be of the 17.5 hours?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16338 MR. McMURRAY: The coverage of community events I would consider real news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16339 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16340 MR. McMURRAY: So it is part of the 90 per cent. In order to have two newscasts we have to cover a lot of the things going on in the community that maybe a larger more regional station wouldn't, to consider it news. Remember my criteria, if it affects somebody over 45 it is news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16341 THE CHAIRPERSON: So what makes up the balance, therefore, to get to 19 hours? If it is 17.5 hours of news and information, including surveillance, and your application says that there is a total of 19 hours of spoken word ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 16342 MR. McMURRAY: M'hmm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16343 THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ what makes up the balance of the 1.5 hours?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16344 MR. McMURRAY: The balance of spoken word programming would also include local coverage of municipal meetings. They go on forever, right? You know, you condense it down, but it will include the local coverage of the municipal meetings. Farm reports, press conferences held by non‑profit organizations and local church broadcasts on Sunday mornings. But that is one‑hour program each Sunday morning, if they want it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16345 THE CHAIRPERSON: And that is part of the 19 hours total?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16346 MR. McMURRAY: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16347 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16348 MR. McMURRAY: Yes, it is. And memorial notices as well. Now, we hope that we won't lose too many of these people over 45, however, when we do we have to announce it to the local community. It is something that CHUM dropped and it caused a lot of problems in our community. Older people suffer from a lot of ailments.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16349 One of the ailments is losing their friends, the older you get the more friends you are going to lose, that is just the way it is. So the least you can do for them is tell them who is coming and who is going.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16350 THE CHAIRPERSON: So birth and death notices?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16351 MR. McMURRAY: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16352 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. What are these local church broadcasts for an hour a week? Is it a Sunday service that will be broadcast on the radio?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16353 MR. McMURRAY: Yes. Before my application, I went to all the churches and asked them about returning to the air and how they felt. Only one church committed to doing it. The other churches were so angry at being cut off abruptly and rudely by BOB‑FM that they didn't even want to talk about it. They said, basically, come back if you get the licence and maybe we will deal with this, maybe we won't.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16354 A lot of them, what they do, is distribute the service now by cassette to fill the void. The only thing we would be doing is broadcasting the actual church service. They will just be buying the time and they have to fill it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16355 THE CHAIRPERSON: And there will be no other religious‑like programming on this service? That would be the only spot where religion will be broadcast?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16356 MR. McMURRAY: The only spot.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16357 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I mean, it is laudable, your commitment to spoken word programming, but when I look at your staffing plans you, I think, have projected that you will require only two people to produce this amount of news. That is a lot of work for two people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16358 MR. McMURRAY: The two people that you are referring to will be the two people that will be responsible to me for providing local news. We will have a lot of stringers and a lot of people reporting the news to us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16359 The two people that I am referring to in my application will be sorting all this stuff out. Because a lot of the groups in the City of Kawartha Lakes that cater to people 50 plus are hungry to get their messages out, and we have to sort through it all and those people will do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16360 In the areas of municipal government and provincial government with our MP and MPP, our two people will be dealing with them directly. Most of the local news on NEW‑FM will come from the community and be given to us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16361 Now, we will know where to search, we will know who to call. I mean, you have got to be very careful with this, because you have to get people who, when you call, give you the facts, they are not making up stories and so on and so forth and there is some discipline here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16362 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have the response to the deficiency question here with your letter dated September 24, question 6, wherein you do provide some more detail as far as your full staffing compliment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16363 MR. McMURRAY: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16364 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just to make things easier for us, what is your fulltime equivalent headcount for the station? I see you have four freelance voice personalities from the community. So you will have the two staff dedicated to news gathering, the editorial content of the news programming will be the responsibility of the senior member of the newsroom staff. Is that a third person, the senior member?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16365 MR. McMURRAY: Yes, it is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16366 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Production department will have a staff person responsible for preparing audio news clips, recording interviews and general newsroom reporting ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 16367 MR. McMURRAY: That is a fulltime person.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16368 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that is the fourth fulltime person.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16369 MR. McMURRAY: M'hmm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16370 THE CHAIRPERSON: And the continuity department will have a staff person, that is five ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 16371 MR. McMURRAY: That is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16372 THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ for commercials.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16373 MR. McMURRAY: M'hmm. I am six.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16374 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are six. And the four freelance voice personalities from the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16375 MR. McMURRAY: Yes. Now, a fulltime job for somebody over 50 or 55 years old in our community might be 20 hours or 25 hours, in which case we have to bring in an extra person. We have to sort this out.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16376 When I did the survey people came alive in the City of Kawartha Lakes and I got a number of calls, actually over four dozen, about working at NEW‑FM and providing, you know, a variety of services.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16377 The City of Kawartha Lakes is actually an old broadcaster's home. A lot of them have actually moved to the area. It is close to Toronto and what they are used to, yet it is far enough away to be away from what they don't like about it anymore. So a number of those people have talked to me. You know, whether I can afford them, we haven't talked about that. But, boy, I would love to have them, because some of them are pretty good.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16378 Generally speaking though, I would say that our staffing would be in the area of 7 or so. And I expect, because of our format, we are going to have trouble maintaining younger people. When I was a young broadcaster and full of the energy that Andy McNabb seems to have, I would not even consider an easy‑listening radio station, I mean, boring stuff. But now that I am a little older, funny how things have changed. I don't consider most of what goes on at a radio station for older people as boring anymore.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16379 I have a very different view of what goes on at a younger person's station, though. I wouldn't work there, where at one time that's the only place I would work at, like if you are a newsperson you want real news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16380 So I can see someone working for me for six months because we will do that. You know, we will bring in Ryerson students and whatnot because they have got to start somewhere. I can't imagine them staying with me more than six months. They would be pretty hearty if they did. But that's okay. We can have two of them a year, can't we?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16381 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, in terms of the orientation of your news, because your signal will also ‑‑ if you are awarded the frequency for which you have applied, because it will reach the Peterborough market will your local news also include stories about Peterborough?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16382 MR. McMURRAY: Yes. We will have regional news if it affects the residents of the City of Kawartha Lakes. We will not be airing news about Peterborough that affects Peterborough residents. We will not ‑‑ we have no interest in, for instance, what's going on at the Peterborough Council or anything like that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16383 If there was a spectacular accident or something in Peterborough we might air that, and we definitely would if it involved Lindsay residents which take a lot of time going to Peterborough to shop, by the way. Some of them are going to have an accident while they are over there. So I ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 16384 THE CHAIRPERSON: Let's hope not.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16385 MR. McMURRAY: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16386 I would say, generally speaking, we have zero interest in Peterborough. As a matter of fact, Peterborough for us is a bit of a disease. BOB‑FM, because they program to Peterborough and have a lot of Peterborough ads, we find that hurtful in the City of Kawartha Lakes. If you ever go to Wal‑Mart ‑‑ now, we are going to get our own Wal‑Mart, but if you ever go to Wal‑Mart it's like every aisle there is somebody you will see from Lindsay or Bobcaygeon or Fenelon Falls because we don't have it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16387 BOB‑FM has actually been very smart about what they do because they have a lot of advertisers on BOB‑FM that can cater to the Lindsay market, because the Lindsay market hasn't figured out that the people in the City of Kawartha Lakes want a lot of new stuff that's available. But we are working on it real fast. A lot of new stores are moving.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16388 So I was rather interested in hearing yesterday when they were talking about retail sales in Peterborough, how high it is and how much higher it's going to be. Actually, it's not going to get higher. Well, it may get higher but not by as much as they think because the Lindsay folks will not be going to Peterborough to shop as much as they have in the past because they will have the facilities in the City of Kawartha Lakes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16389 THE CHAIRPERSON: So if I am hearing you correctly, you have applied for 96.7 because it covers the City of Kawartha the best, even though your service is intended to serve the City of Kawartha Lakes residents only?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16390 MR. McMURRAY: Yes. We do not want to go beyond the borders.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16391 If we tried to do that, we would be in the same predicament that BOB‑FM is in, which is just who is our listener? How do we serve them both?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16392 BOB‑FM, they made a decision to be very regional and less City of Kawartha Lakes. Why? Because what's going on in the City of Kawartha Lakes is more boring than what's going on in Peterborough, and also Peterborough have more youth. So I'm not going to fall into that trap and I think BOB‑FM is slowly emerging out of it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16393 We want to stay within the City of Kawartha Lakes. We want to cover all of the City of Kawartha Lakes because if you don't we will get ‑‑ it will be a problem for us because of people and the waterfront properties down in the valleys and sort of constantly badgering us to increase power, do whatever, because they want to know what's going on too and if they don't ‑‑ if they can't find out what's going on, since nobody else was going to be telling them except local radio, well, I guess they will be back to see you to make sure that we can cover the City of Kawartha Lakes if we have to take an alternate frequency that doesn't cover the City of Kawartha Lakes. An example is a repeater.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16394 THE CHAIRPERSON: Right. And you talked about that in your oral presentation earlier.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16395 But I will ask you the question that I have asked all applicants, and that is would you accept a licence ‑‑ an authorization that says that your application is approved in part if we were to decide to award 96.7 to another applicant and, you know, came out and said, "Yes, we love your idea. We think it's terrific, serves the City of Kawartha Lakes, but you need to go out and find another frequency."
LISTNUM 1 \l 16396 Would you accept that decision?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16397 MR. McMURRAY: Yes, I would.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16398 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16399 You are one of the few applicants who seem to have a secret, and that is how to become profitable right from year one. Do you want to share that secret with us?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16400 MR. McMURRAY: Yes, I will.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16401 First of all, I lived there. I have lived there for 35 years or so, and I know the market very, very well. I know the frustrations of the businesses. I know the area inside and out. I have worked in radio. I have worked in cable television. I know the score in the City of Kawartha Lakes. It is so underserved in so many ways.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16402 I think that businesses and the people of the City of Kawartha Lakes will be so appreciative of our local program that I will have no trouble in getting the amount of advertising needed to make NEW‑FM successful. If you take a look at our financials you will see that I am profitable by $33,000 in year one and by $175,000 in year seven.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16403 I think the worst thing that can happen to me is that I'm not profitable by those numbers; I'm just profitable by 10 percent of gross sales. That's the worst that can happen, I feel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16404 I feel so confident because of what I feel will be the growth of the demographic in my area, that I am ploughing ahead with this. And there is some risk you know at my age putting the money in. You know, I could be one of those senior citizens that just wants to listen but I see the need and I'm prepared to fulfil the need, and I have absolutely no qualms that I will be successful; none, zero.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16405 THE CHAIRPERSON: Was your business plan predicated on no other service being licensed in Peterborough? Because of this frequency issue, if you were able to find a frequency that served only Kawartha Lakes and leaving us free to licence something else on the 96.7 frequency, would the licensing of something else in Peterborough have any impact on your ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 16406 MR. McMURRAY: In Peterborough?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16407 THE CHAIRPERSON: In Peterborough, have any impact on your business plan?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16408 MR. McMURRAY: No.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16409 THE CHAIRPERSON: None at all?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16410 MR. McMURRAY: My format is so different and so unique for the City of Kawartha Lakes I'm not even afraid of BOB‑FM. They can't do anything to me and they have the power.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16411 For instance, if they started ‑‑ if they lowered their rates for stores that sell to the people over 45 plus, all they would be doing is hurting themselves because they wouldn't have any repeat business; because once I get on the air that group of people will not have to use BOB‑FM unless they want to cater to a younger group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16412 So I feel very secure and they should feel very secure with me. As a matter of fact, I would say BOB ‑‑ I am the guy that BOB‑FM ‑‑ why they would ever intervene is beyond me. I'm the guy they should just love. I'm an old guy wanting to serve old folks and they are a giant that wants to serve young folks.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16413 Imagine if I didn't do it and somebody else came in, and they did do it? Remember, you do not regulate the format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16414 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16415 MR. McMURRAY: So let's say you brought somebody else in on whatever and they decided to compete with BOB‑FM, let's say, with country because Globemedia owned the country station in Peterborough that does well in City of Kawartha Lakes, by the way ‑‑ they could switch and they could compete with BOB‑FM. I will never do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16416 This is the only format I'm interested ‑‑ I would rather just turn it off, quite frankly, than get into the hassle of fighting BOB‑FM with, say, you know, adult contemporary or something because you know what? They could win so easily. All they have to do is reduce their rates by, what, 10 percent; 15 percent, go out offer deals and this, that and the other thing. They could just ‑‑ all they do is sit back and wait for me to run out of money. I'm not going to do that, no. This is the only format that will work in the City of Kawartha Lakes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16417 However, if another person wanted to come in and let's say, for instance, you gave them 96.7, since you already talked about Peterborough you are not going to allow them to be a Peterborough station as well, I would feel okay because I don't think they would be stupid enough trying to compete with me for the old folks. I think what they would do is try and compete with BOB. That's their problem.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16418 So what would the answer be to that question? It doesn't matter to me who you issue your licence to in addition to me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16419 THE CHAIRPERSON: That, I think, is obvious. Thank you.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 16420 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am just going to read to you two statements that concern CCD and just ask you to please confirm your understanding, and then I will ask my colleagues if they have any further questions for you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16421 Please confirm your understanding that if licensed your station will have to contribute a basic annual CCD contribution imposed by condition of licence until the regulations are amended, based on the station's total annual revenues and in the amounts as set out in paragraph 116 of the new radio policy, Public Notice CRTC 2006‑158.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16422 MR. McMURRAY: I would confirm that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16423 THE CHAIRPERSON: Please confirm your understanding that of this base annual amount, no less than 60 percent of the station's basic annual CCD contribution must be allocated to either FACTOR or MusicAction and the remaining amount, if any, may be directed to any eligible CCD initiatives at your discretion.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16424 MR. McMURRAY: I would confirm that as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16425 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. McMurray.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16426 MR. McMURRAY: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16427 THE CHAIRPERSON: My colleagues?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16428 Commissioner del Val.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16429 MR. McMURRAY: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16430 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I just wanted to ask, if the other ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 16431 MR. McMURRAY: Could they ‑‑ oh, I guess I can do it. You have a lighter voice.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16432 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Is this okay?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16433 MR. McMURRAY: Try me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16434 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16435 If the other licensee licensed for Kawartha Lake were a religious service like Mr. McNabb's, would that affect your plans to offer local church broadcasts?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16436 MR. McMURRAY: Here is the question. He is really listening for the answer to this, I know.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16437 If he didn't change his format it wouldn't matter to me at all. However, since you don't regulate that and he found that it wasn't successful and did change his format, it wouldn't matter at all, quite frankly. As long as he didn't try and target the older audience I couldn't care less.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16438 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay. So your answer, if a religious station were licensed for Kawartha Lakes you would still offer your local church broadcasts or you would not?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16439 MR. McMURRAY: I would offer it. They don't have to accept it. For me it's just time. I just fill the time with something else.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16440 And I can appreciate why they might want to be on a religious station. For them radio is radio is radio, and that will be fine with me. I would just put commercials in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16441 COMMISSIONER del VAL: And if that came to be, would the licensing of a religious station for Kawartha Lakes affect your business plans?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16442 MR. McMURRAY: Well, he said he is not going to sell commercials so I would say as a religious station it wouldn't affect me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16443 So the answer to your question is, no, it will not affect me, I don't believe. I'm okay with it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16444 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay. I believe that the not selling commercials is for Peterborough, but I believe that there would be no prohibition against selling commercials in Kawartha Lakes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16445 MR. McMURRAY: Well, I have more money than he has.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 16446 MR. McMURRAY: So I'm not going to run out. I don't know about his American friend. He probably has a lot of money too, doesn't he?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16447 I guess the question is, as we compete who is going to run out of money first.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 16448 MR. McMURRAY: And you know something? It's not going to be me. So I would say I don't care what he does.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 16449 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16450 MR. McMURRAY: Okay, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16451 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank you, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16452 THE CHAIRPERSON: Legal counsel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16453 MS SMITH: Thank you, Commissioner.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16454 I just have one question for you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16455 MR. McMURRAY: I have to ‑‑ okay, m'hm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16456 MS SMITH: I just have one question for you. I was wondering if you could please provide us with a copy of your instrumental music playlist for the record?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16457 MR. McMURRAY: Yes, I will.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16458 MS SMITH: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16459 MR. McMURRAY: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16460 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. McMurray, this is the point where you have two minutes to give us your best pitch.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16461 MR. McMURRAY: Okay, which I wrote out last night.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16462 I ask that you licence Easy FM to serve the underserved in the City of Kawartha Lakes. The 45‑plus group of people need a voice in the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16463 I am from the City of Kawartha Lakes and I know that 36,261 people, 45‑plus neighbours of mine, have been denied the local programming they want because the current local station decided to program to a younger audience. I appreciate why CHUM did what they did. It became clear to them that they could not please two very different demographics. CHUM made the right decision for them. I have made the right decision for NEW‑FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16464 NEW‑FM will serve the older radio listener. NEW‑FM will sell advertising only to businesses wanting to reach the older residents. Trying to sell advertising to any other business would not create a friendly relationship that would be renewed on a regular basis. You need repeat business.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16465 The new 45‑plus radio listener moving to the City of Kawartha Lakes are providing the growth needed to pay for my radio station. We talked earlier about the growth of retail sales in Peterborough. City of Kawartha Lakes residents have contributed to that growth in the recent past. However, now many of Peterborough's stores have also opened or will open soon in the City of Kawartha Lakes; Wal‑Mart, Home Depot, Mark's Work Wearhouse, Sobeys, Sears, just to name a few. The times they are a changing and it's time for Easy FM in the City of Kawartha Lakes and I thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16466 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. McMurray.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16467 Madam Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16468 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16469 This completes Phase I.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16470 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16471 And we will now break for lunch and be back at 2:00 o'clock. Thank you.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1235 / Suspension à 1235
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1405 / Reprise à 1405
LISTNUM 1 \l 16472 THE CHAIRPERSON: The delay is because one of the applicants has indicated that they will appear in Phase II and we are just looking for him. So just give us a couple of minutes.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1406/ Suspension à 1406
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1410 / Reprise à 1410
LISTNUM 1 \l 16473 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16474 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16475 For the record, Anderson Parish Media has filed in response to undertakings a sample instrumental list of musical selection. This document has been added to the public record.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16476 We have now reached Phase II in which applicants appear in the same order to intervene on competing applications if they wish.; for the record 591989 B.C. Limited, Newcap Inc., Larche Communication Inc., Pineridge Broadcasting Inc., K‑Rock 1057 Inc., Evanov Communications Inc., Acadia Broadcasting Limited, Frank Torres on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated and Anderson Parish Media Inc. have indicated that they would not appear in Phase II.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16477 I would now call Mr. McNabb to come forward to the presentation table if he wishes to participate in this phase.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16478 THE SECRETARY: Mr. McNabb, you have 10 minutes for your presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16479 MR. McNABB: This will be refreshingly brief.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16480 Commissioners, taking a look at the state of radio in Peterborough versus the City of Kawartha Lakes, when you take a look at the total hours tuned to radio in Ontario, the adults 18 plus tune an average of 19.72 hours. That's right out of the Survey Four that was published just last week. In Peterborough County people are tuning 20.71 hours to radio. So they are tuning above the Ontario average.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16481 So what I'm trying to say here is that the state of radio in Peterborough is very good. And even though there is no doubt in my mind that there would be room for another radio station in Peterborough due to the very large seven‑figure margins that Corus and CHUM are turning together with their four radio stations, it just gives one more argument in my mind as to why Peterborough should be looked at as a secondary or even a tertiary consideration before the City of Kawartha Lakes that only has that one licence for the 75,000 people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16482 Because right now you have got the Peterborough station with CHUM's 105.1 CKQM, Country 105, and you have Corus' 101.5 CKWF The Wolf, all covering the City of Kawartha Lakes quite well, very actively selling in the market. And all we need and I say this obviously tongue in cheek, is yet another monster signal coming out of Peterborough where they are not servicing the people in the City of Kawartha Lakes but they can come in and sell to it. And this is why I really feel strongly that the City of Kawartha Lakes should be prioritized.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16483 And that is all I have to contribute.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16484 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. McNabb.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16485 MR. McNABB: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16486 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have made your position quite clear. We don't have any questions for you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16487 Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16488 Madam Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16489 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16490 We will now proceed to Phase III in which intervenors appear in the order set out in the agenda to present their intervention. However, for the record, the order set out in the agenda has been changed. The group of intervenors in a panel have switched with the individual intervenor, the CBC.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16491 I would now call the CBC to come forward to the presentation table.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16492 THE SECRETARY: Please introduce yourselves, and you will have 10 minutes for your presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16493 MR. CARNOVALE: Good afternoon, Madam Chair, members of the Commission and Commission staff.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16494 My name is Ray Carnovale and I am Vice‑President and Chief Technology Officer for CBC/Radio‑Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16495 With me today is Suzanne Lamarre, Senior Advisor in Strategy and Planning within my group; and Rob Scarth, CBC's Director of Regulatory Affairs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16496 We are not opposed to any of the applications currently before you in this proceeding. If there is an opportunity to enhance the diversity of radio service in Peterborough or Kawartha Lakes that can only be a good thing for the people in these communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16497 Our issue is about ensuring that the people of Peterborough continue to be able to receive the CBC Radio One service, and that this proceeding not create the unintended result of turning what we hope is a temporary interference situation into a permanent one.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16498 In our written intervention of November 15th we describe the interference to our Radio One service that resulted from the introduction of CKPT's new FM transmitter at 99.3.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16499 When CKPT‑FM first went on the air in test mode on August 21st of this year its zone of interference to CBC Radio One covered a significant portion of the market. We calculated at that time that there were 27,000 people in Peterborough who could no longer effectively receive CBC Radio One.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16500 We took audio samples of the interference at various locations around the city, and if you lived within the zone of interference this is what CBC Radio One would sound like to you:
‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip audio
LISTNUM 1 \l 16501 MR. CARNOVALE: This is clearly an unacceptable level of interference.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16502 From the outset we have been working with both CTVglobemedia and Industry Canada to resolve the matter. At our urging, and subsequent to the filing of our written intervention, Industry Canada issued an order that CKPT‑FM's transmitter power be reduced to 1 kilowatt or 10 percent of its licence power in order to reduce the size of the zone of interference.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16503 CKPT‑FM has complied with the order. The number of people now subject to interference is approximately 9,000. To be clear, the problem is not yet resolved. It has simply been reduced in size for a period of time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16504 It is also clear that the results of the on‑air test have shown that the use of the third adjacent frequency 99.3 to have been a mistake. In its order to CTVglobemedia Industry Canada granted an extension to CKPT‑FM's on‑air test period to December 31st. The unusually lengthy duration of this on‑air test period was granted by Industry Canada to provide CTVglobemedia with the opportunity to identify and apply for an alternate frequency.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16505 In order to address the outstanding interference issue caused by CKPT's use of 99.3 it is our understanding that CTVglobemedia has now identified and applied for an alternate frequency, 99.7 MHz, or channel 259B with an effective radiated power of 11 kilowatts maximum, 3.7 kilowatts average, located at CKPT's existing site. We believe this alternate frequency, if approved, will solve the interference problem.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16506 This situation and this proceeding are linked. The solution of this situation is the adoption of an alternate frequency by CKPT. We have no concern if the Commission approves one of the applications for 96.7 MHz. We would be concerned, however, if the Commission approves in part any other applicants. When it does approve in part an application, the CRTC typically provides successful applicants with another three months to identify and obtain technical approval on an alternate frequency. Our concern is that if the Commission approves in part any of these applications, it could potentially derail CTVglobemedia's application for an alternate frequency.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16507 Our request to the Commission is that in any decision it makes as a result of this proceeding, that it be sensitive to the fact that there is an outstanding situation still to be resolved and that its resolution will require the use of another FM frequency by CTVglobemedia in Peterborough.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16508 To that end, we would urge the Commission to deal expeditiously with the CTVglobemedia application for an alternate frequency in Peterborough, and that if the Commission approves an application out of this proceeding, that approval be only for the use of channel 244 or 96.7 MHz and that it not approve any applications in part.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16509 In closing, we would like to say we were very appreciative of the Commission in its recent decision to defer its consideration of radio applications for Ottawa‑Gatineau. This deferral will provide applicants with the opportunity to resubmit their technical parameters in order to address the potential for a third adjacent channel interference with our Espace musique service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16510 While the circumstances in this proceeding are different than the Ottawa‑Gatineau proceeding, the principle at stake is the same, and that is to ensure that the Commission's licensing decisions take into account the importance of protecting the integrity of coverage of broadcasters already providing service in the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16511 We appreciate this opportunity to raise our concerns and we would be pleased to answer any questions you have. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16512 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Carnovale, and to your colleagues welcome.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16513 I appreciate the audio sample. It certainly gives us more of an appreciation of just how extensive the interference is. So I do appreciate that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16514 Now, your oral presentation varies a little bit from your written intervention because of the CTVglobemedia situation and what has occurred since the time that you wrote your intervention and your appearance before us today.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16515 So if I understand you correctly, what you are basically advising us is that we have to look at this holistically, but this is a question of timing in that if we grant approval for the use of 99.7 it is at that time that we should consider approving in part anything else for Peterborough?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16516 MR. CARNOVALE: No, if I may, to quote a famous baseball coach, Yogi Berra used to say "It ain't over till it's over". And while CTVglobemedia has identified what appears to be a suitable alternate frequency, that frequency is short spaced with three Canadian and one American station on adjacent or co‑channel frequencies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16517 So there is still a lot of coordination that has to be done. Industry Canada has yet to approve the technical brief. The coordination, the international coordination with the FCC must be successful. One would hope that there are no other broadcasters out there on co or adjacent channels who in fact might have plans for frequency augmentation that might cause them to want to oppose CTVglobemedia's application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16518 So really, what we are saying is please do not approve in part anybody until it is clear that an alternate frequency is available for them, and that CTVglobemedia has in fact found a satisfactory destination frequency to resolve the interference problem.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16519 THE CHAIRPERSON: And with the applicants throughout the last couple of days, we have been talking about alternate frequencies and some have identified ones that would suit their needs and others have not, where they have said that 96.7 is it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16520 Have you had an opportunity to follow these proceedings and have you heard those discussions with the other applicants?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16521 MR. CARNOVALE: No, unfortunately, I arrived only late yesterday. I don't know if my colleagues would have anything to add.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16522 MR. SCARTH: No, we have no particular comment on any of the alternate frequencies that have been discussed in this proceeding.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16523 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16524 This is one of those times when one of our former colleagues used to say that she was envious of those of you who wear the ring, iron ring on your pinkie. I must say, this issue of frequencies is certainly one of those moments because we know ‑‑ it certainly looms over our decision making.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16525 Sorry, someone's cell phone just went off.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16526 So I certainly do appreciate your intervention here today.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16527 If my colleagues have any further questions?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16528 Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16529 MR. CARNOVALE: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16530 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16531 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16532 I would now call the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs, Active Green + Ross, Michael Graham, Jack De Keyzer and Bill McKay to appear as a panel and to present their intervention.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16533 They may come forward to the presentation table.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16534 THE SECRETARY: Please introduce yourselves and you will each have 10 minutes for your presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16535 MR. BLAICHER: John Blaicher, representing the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16536 THE SECRETARY: You may start your 10‑minute presentation now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16537 MR. BLAICHER: The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs is a non‑profit volunteer‑driven organization. The 235 community service clubs who form the OFSC operate the world's longest integrated recreational trail network, over 41,000 kilometres. In fact, it's more than there are kilometres of provincial highways in Ontario.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16538 Economic impact studies confirm that OFSC snowmobile trails generate over one billion dollars in economic activity annually, primarily in rural and northern Ontario, while also contributing many millions more in tax revenues to government coffers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16539 These winter‑only trails operate by community‑based, not‑for‑profit snowmobile clubs and provide numerous social, recreational and health benefits to countless Ontarians in their hometowns. Moreover, these snowmobile trails provide hundreds of rural communities and their residents with significant winter livelihoods, helping to sustain many families in an otherwise traditionally dominant and difficult season ‑‑ dormant, sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16540 As local service groups, snowmobile clubs benefit charity, running numerous events including our annual Snowarama rides which have raised over $16 million to date to support the Easter Seal Society of Ontario for children with physical disabilities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16541 Local clubs are also involved in delivering safety education to young snowmobilers throughout the OFSC driver training program as authorized by the Ministry of Transportation. To date, almost 6,000 teenagers have graduated from OFSC driver training courses.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16542 Rural values are a foundation of the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs in small town Ontario. We are all about generous local people freely sharing their time, efforts or land for the greater wellbeing of their home communities and fellow residents.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16543 Through our local service clubs and volunteers the OFSC delivers important safety and environment programs and we rely extensively on local contacts and especially local radio to get our message out, to promote our fundraising and charity events and to help save lives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16544 Unfortunately, our ability to reliably and consistently do this varies considerably from town to town and time to time. To date, no existing broadcasting company has stepped to our plate to help us put together a provincial radio messaging education and information campaign through multiple stations in various markets, no one that is except Skywords.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16545 The OFSC began to work with Ed and Frank Torres and Skywords several years ago. Not only have they over delivered on all their community service efforts on behalf of our clubs and volunteers, they have approached us again and again to get our message out in new ways and into new markets where we have previously been unable to find willing radio partners.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16546 Skywords has proved to be an exceptional media partner who has gone out of its way to serve our non‑profit volunteer‑based organization in a variety of ways. We have always been impressed by their willingness to try new ideas, to create innovative opportunities and to work at the grassroots level.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16547 For example, the OFSC is comprised of 235 community clubs in 17 districts and when we asked Skywords to assist Ontarians by developing a much needed radio trail report throughout the winter, Ed and Frank Torres personally attended meetings in most OFC districts to meet our volunteers and hear what each community needed. As a result, Skywords has served many rural and northern communities very well by promoting events, delivering safety messaging and encouraging the snowmobile tourism on which so many of these small snow belt towns depend each winter.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16548 The point of all this background is that Ed and Frank Torres has proved to be willing, effective, motivated and generous in partners in assisting the OFSC and its clubs to achieve our community service mandate. More than any other broadcasting company, Skywords has demonstrated its commitment and ability to growing and improving the benefits of organized snowmobiling for communities throughout snow belt Ontario.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16549 So when the OFSC learned of the Skyword's radio application for a blues radio station in the Kawarthas/Peterborough area, we knew that one result would be new and effective community service access to thousands of listeners that we have not previously been able to reach either frequently or affordably through existing radio outlets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16550 The Kawarthas is a huge winter recreation destination and snowmobiling is integral to most of the communities and to its winter tourism economy and operators. Yet, neither local residents nor the area's thousands of cottagers are well served with regular news information and updates from our Kawartha Region service clubs. We are confident that this will change dramatically with a new Skywords radio station in the area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16551 Knowing their passion for radio and their commitment to the experience of community service, we are especially pleased to support the Skywords application for a blues radio station in the Kawarthas/Peterborough. This new station will provide listeners with a music choice that presently is absent from this rapidly growing market and an opportunity to be involved with and benefit from a very community‑minded broadcaster.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16552 And if I could ‑‑ I don't know how we are doing with time. I would like to play three small 30‑second PSAs or messages that help illustrate, I think fundamentally, how they help us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16553 The first is really a demonstration of their commitment to help us improve the production quality of our messaging. They volunteered to do this at no expense. It's a commercial that is being aired this year to help us sell trail‑permit passes to snowmobilers throughout the province and they helped us. We provided the base script. They took it from there, added their magic and produced it for us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16554 Hope this all works.
‑‑ Audio clip / Clip audio
LISTNUM 1 \l 16555 MR. BLAICHER: It's how our clubs generate the revenue that allows us to open and maintain that trail network. So it's really an important message for us to get out. We were challenged the last few years with not having the snow conditions that we would have liked, and it's just great to have this expertise at our disposal to improve a message that otherwise may have been, you know, more flat and not as, I think, well positioned to do the job that we were hoping it would do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16556 The next one is just an example of where we have another media partner. He is a gentleman called "The Intrepid Snowmobiler" and he produces a series of important ‑‑ we call them "Intrepid Snowmobiler Messages" for us. And Skywords has stepped to the table to help us package that program and get it out to as many radio stations as they air trail condition reports on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16557 So it's a unique partnership where the OSFC didn't produce The Intrepid Snowmobiler package, but we are working with two media‑savvy individuals and extending our reach through their expertise.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16558 If I could just work the computer. Sorry.
‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip audio
LISTNUM 1 \l 16559 MR. BLAICHER: With Skywords' assistance that Intrepid Snowmobiler package, which consists of about 20 pre‑packaged 30‑second spots, now airs on 50 radio stations across the province and it really ‑‑ some of the mix is safety messaging, environment messaging or volunteer recognition messaging. And we just simply wouldn't have the resources as a non‑profit group to gain that kind of reach.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16560 The next one that I just want to play is an example of a public service message to try to reduce injuries on the trail which, as we all know, will happen too frequently especially this time of year and, again, through Skywords and their assistance in not only helping us produce these kinds of messages but, more important, their commitment to help us get them to air. And we know that if there was a radio station licence granted them in the Kawarthas/Peterborough this kind of message would air all winter long.
‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip audio
LISTNUM 1 \l 16561 MR. BLAICHER: Sorry, I just clicked the wrong one first. My mouse is so sensitive here. I do apologize. I just can't seem to ‑‑ given my fingers are shaking, maybe from the nerves.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip audio
LISTNUM 1 \l 16562 MR. BLAICHER: Same one.
‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip audio
LISTNUM 1 \l 16563 MR. BLAICHER: It wasn't the one that I wanted to play, but I will give you an example.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16564 The last item is really a package we referred to in the briefing document, is where two years ago we sat down with Skywords to try and develop a trail information reporting system for all of the province. As you would know, snow doesn't fall equally everywhere at the same time and it's really important that we are able to communicate to snowmobilers the kind of snow conditions they have, much like you would for ski resorts. And this is an example of the assistance they provided and what airs now regularly across all of their stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16565 This is so sensitive. It's not ‑‑
‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip audio
LISTNUM 1 \l 16566 MR. BLAICHER: So that concludes effectively the presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16567 Without Skywords, the industry of snowmobiling in this province would not be communicated to us as frequently or as often, with these important public service safety messages and trail condition report messages. We are here on behalf of the OFSC to support their application, because we know that it would put another great radio station in our coffers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16568 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Michael Graham, you have 10 minutes for your presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16569 MR. GRAHAM: Madam Chair, Commissioners and Commission Staff, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to speak in support of this application for a new blues radio format licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16570 I have been a director and Treasurer of the Ottawa Blues Society for approximately five years, and I have attended numerous blues festivals and visited many blues venues in both Canada and the United States.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16571 I have conducted reviews of many Canadian blues CDs, and I continue to be amazed by the quality of the numerous productions that are sent to our society for review.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16572 In Canada, there are hundreds of local and regionally based blues bands and performers. There is also a smaller number of bands or performers that have achieved national or international prominence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16573 Unfortunately, many of these exceedingly talented musicians receive little or no airplay on Canadian commercial radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16574 It is a pity that we must rely on satellite radio, the internet and/or cable services to hear only a few of our national blues artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16575 When I speak of national blues artists, I speak of people like the Downchild Blues Band, Sue Foley, Colin James, Harry Manx, and Mr. Jack de Keyzer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16576 Local and regional blues artists get little or no play. Artists such as Ottawa's Tony D Band, in some respects the JW‑Jones Band, and Roxanne Potvin are making inroads into the blues business, but yet, in their own country, they get no airplay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16577 The only time I have ever heard their music on my radio is when I turn on my XM radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16578 So although there is some coverage on satellite radio, you must understand that it originates from the United States. Accordingly, Canadian artists get minimal airplay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16579 If it wasn't for the congeniality of a Mr. Bill Wax, with Bluesville, Station No. 74 on the XM service ‑‑ he has a great affinity for Canadian talent and he knows many of the Blues Society members and presidents across the country. He gives us and our artists some notice.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16580 We are very fortunate to have that, because in the United States, as you know, they are very protective of their artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16581 For example, the Ottawa Blues Society directory of Ottawa blues artists contains over 45 bands and performers, many of whom have released excellent CDs that we have reviewed, but, unfortunately, very little get played on radio stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16582 Of the 45 bands in the City of Ottawa alone, only three ‑‑ JW‑Jones Band, Sue Foley and Roxanne Potvin ‑‑ are heard from time to time on Sirius or XM radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16583 There are numerous bands in central Ontario that face the same problem.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16584 One has to look at what is available for the talent in the blues genre. A promoter from Quebec once told me: I have some great talent in the province. I can't get it marketed outside Quebec. There is no venue. I can't get airplay. It is very, very difficult.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16585 There is a rising young star by the name of Ricky Paquette. He is 16 years old. He has already released two CDs. If it wasn't for blues festivals, no one would know who Ricky Paquette is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16586 It is important to note that many blues societies boast of the blues bands and performers that perform in their particular area, and strive to promote their local entertainers. The societies are very passionate about this. If there weren't passionate societies out there, our blues artists would be in real trouble. They already are.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16587 In addition to those performers, there are increasing numbers of new and emerging artists that are plying their trade in virtual obscurity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16588 A blues‑oriented FM radio station would go a long way to providing the exposure that our veteran and emerging Canadian blues musicians deserve.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16589 In addition to benefiting our musicians, there are three major Canadian blues labels that would also benefit. Northern Blues Music and Electrofy Records, both based out of Toronto, and Stony Plain Records, based in Edmonton, have many Canadian blues artists under contract. In fact, 55 percent of the CDs released through 2006 and 2007 were Canadian blues artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16590 Initially, many Canadian blues artists independently produce their own CDs, at great expense, and currently must rely solely on promoting their CDs in blues venues and at festivals.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16591 I was talking to an executive with Stony Plain. I asked the question: How do you bring new artists on board?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16592 He said: In the industry, you can't just walk in, hand them a CD and say, "Listen to it. Do you like it? Put it out for me."
LISTNUM 1 \l 16593 They look to artists that have a proven track record, that have had exposure, and that are recognized to some degree; not just some obscure talent that walks in off the street.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16594 The only way for that to happen is to get these independent CDs airplay on the radio, so that people get to hear them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16595 Major labels, such as the aforementioned, could only benefit with the exposure that emerging talents would receive by having their independent CDs heard over the airwaves.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16596 Gradually, with this increased exposure, the greater number of artists would be recognized and signed to major labels. The benefit here is for the record companies, the artists, the writers, and the listeners.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16597 Currently, it is very difficult to get commercial outlets to stock independently released CDs for sale to the public. In essence, there is a Canadian blues industry that is almost invisible to the average radio listener.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16598 In fact, many are not aware that there is a great wealth of Aboriginal blues talent in Canada, with the likes of the Pappy Johns Band, Derek Miller and George Leach.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16599 These musicians make up a growing number of "Rez Blues" artists. They are a unique influence on the North American music scene.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16600 Bravo Television has brought in a weekly "Rez Blues" show. Catch it sometime, you will be surprised at what you see.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16601 When people think of Canadian blues, they think: What is Canadian blues?
LISTNUM 1 \l 16602 We have blues music in the United States, Chicago blues, west coast blues ‑‑ I could go on and on and on ‑‑ Detroit Blues, Louisiana Blues ‑‑ but in Canada, our Canadian blues scene encompasses all of that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16603 Our numbers are such that, with the major cities across Canada, and the towns, a lot of our artists eat and breathe the blues. They see it from the United States, what goes on in Britain and in Europe.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16604 In fact, if you take a look at the east coast, there is a band in Moncton called Glamour Puss, which has a unique blues style, with a little tinge of Acadian. It sort of makes you think that it is our Canadian Cajun that you would hear down in Louisiana.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16605 Travel a little farther east and you are into Nova Scotia, where you have John Campbelljohn; again, a tremendous blues/folk musician, with that little bit of Scottish flavour. You feel it, you see it, and it makes you feel good because it's Canadian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16606 If you head out west to Winnipeg, there is an artist by the name of Big Dave McLean. This gentleman sings acoustic blues, which is probably influenced a little bit from the traditional Chicago Blues. There again, though, he does sing songs of the north ‑‑ Canadian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16607 Farther out west, on the west coast, we have Colin James and the Powder Blues Band. That is where you get your swing blues, jump blues, with a flavour going back to Benny Goodman, Count Basie, a little bit of the origin of the boogie‑woogie and jump‑style music, similar to the west coast blues that you see in the United States.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16608 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Graham, I am sorry to interrupt, but you have 30 seconds left, if you could please sum up. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16609 MR. GRAHAM: Canada has provided the world with excellent blues artists, with the likes of the Downchild Blues Band, Sue Foley, JW‑Jones, et cetera. There are, however, hundreds of blues acts across Canada that are pleading for exposure. One need only attend the Limestone City Blues Festival in Kingston to experience the many quality performers that they can see in Kingston, Peterborough, Ottawa and Toronto.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16610 In summation, the commercial blues radio format that is being applied for would be the first of its kind in North America and would put Canada at the forefront of promoting its own, both within and outside Canada, in a unique format that would embody the Canadian blues scene with that of the many diversified blues styles from the United States, Britain and Europe.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16611 Again, I would like to thank the Commission for allowing me to address this hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16612 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Jack de Keyzer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16613 MR. de KEYZER: Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Commissioners and Commission Staff, and thanks for the opportunity to speak in support of this new blues format FM radio licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16614 I have been a professional blues musician for 34 years, band leader, and songwriter. In that time I have seen the blues grow from a big city phenomenon to music that is played and enjoyed in every town and city across Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16615 I perform over 150 dates, coast‑to‑coast, annually, and have firsthand knowledge of Canada's love for the blues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16616 I perform at nightclubs, theatres, dance halls, festivals and arenas to tens of thousands of blues fans a year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16617 Blues music appeals to all ages. I have played for kids from 2 to 82. However, the primary age group, I would say, is men and women between the ages of 35 to 55.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16618 Every city has a blues festival, and often it is one of the most successful events that a city has.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16619 I have played to 1,000 blues fans at the Festival of Lights in Peterborough, and 30,000 at the International Festival of Jazz and Blues in Montreal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16620 In fact, I have performed to large crowds in nearly every city across Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16621 Blues festivals bring lots of people to cities and towns in the summer months, and lots of revenue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16622 In fact, the blues is so popular that many promoters use the word to entice people to come to a festival, even when, in some cases, there is not as much blues as one would like.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16623 Why? Because blues is synonymous with soul, authenticity, truth and hard work.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16624 Blues is the underlying fabric of the cloth of North American music. Jazz, country, gospel, bluegrass, soul, funk, rock, R&B are all tied to the blues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16625 Every one of these styles of music uses the blues as its melodic scale and, often, bar structure. Without blues there would be no musical giants such as Louis Armstrong, Charlie Parker, Hank Williams, Bill Munro, Miles Davis, T‑Bone Walker, B.B. King, Elvis Presley, Chuck Berry, Aretha Franklin, Marvin Gaye, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, and the list goes on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16626 Blues is the thread that holds all of these musical styles together. Without the blues, I am really not sure what popular music would sound like ‑‑ Pat Boone, maybe, Slipknot, or Britney Spears.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16627 Currently, artists like Jonny Lang, Eric Clapton, Bonnie Raitt, John Mayer and the White Stripes, along with Canadian artists like the Downchild Blues Band, Colin James, Sue Foley, and Rita Chiarelli, all actively produce high‑quality blues or blues‑influenced recordings that sound great on the radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16628 There are also hundreds of touring and quality recording acts that play blues professionally and, up to now, have received little or no radio exposure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16629 As important and omnipresent as the blues is ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 16630 Have you ever noticed how many commercials and TV shows use blues music to sell their products or enhance the visuals? Blues is almost completely absent from mainstream radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16631 Yet support for blues is strong. There are blues societies in every province. I know of at least seven in Ontario.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16632 Blues fans are loyal, and they are many. Most nightclubs and restaurants that feature live music feature blues or blues‑based music, not classical, not country, not rap, not hip hop, not even that much rock. This is because the people love blues. It speaks to them directly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16633 Blues, despite its name, is an uplifting form of music, and because of its strength, durability and longevity, it is woven into the fabric of nearly all popular North American musical styles.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16634 The impact of having blues radio for myself and the hundreds of professional musicians performing and recording this style in Canada today would be huge. More airplay would result in potentially more record sales, larger audiences, and more revenue for us to promote and produce the music that we love and that we perform and write.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16635 Production values would go up, and so would our advertising budgets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16636 Blues musicians tour a lot, and touring around is good business, too ‑‑ good for auto companies, airlines, hotels, gasoline companies, and my mechanic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16637 Blues is a very active and alive musical art form. I travel tens of thousands of kilometres per year, and with solid blues radio support that number would only go up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16638 Blues is good business, and has been for a long, if not fully recognized, time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16639 As a 30‑plus year veteran of the music business, with six CDs, one DVD, a Juno Award, six Maple Blues Awards, and hundreds of other artists' recordings that I have played on or produced, I am an active proponent of the blues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16640 The blues deserves to be heard on mainstream FM radio. People, I have continually observed, have a craving for the blues. They need it on stage, in their CD players, in their living rooms, in their cars, and they need it on the radio. Program the blues and people will tune in, and they will stay tuned in because blues is a great part of our North American fabric.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16641 Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16642 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Bill McKay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16643