ARCHIVÉ -  Transcription

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

              TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

                       SUBJECT/SUJET:

 

 

Various broadcasting applications further to calls for

applications for broadcasting licences to carry on radio programming undertakings to serve Owen Sound, Windsor and Peterborough, Ontario /

Plusieurs demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'entreprises de programmation de radio pour desservir Owen Sound, Windsor et Peterborough (Ontario)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

 

Rooms B, C & D                    Salons B, C et D

Delta Hotel London Armouries      Hôtel Delta London Armouries

325 Dundas Street                 325, rue Dundas

London, Ontario                   London (Ontario)

 

December 10, 2007                 Le 10 décembre 2007

 

 

 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

 

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

                 Transcript / Transcription

 

Various broadcasting applications further to calls for

applications for broadcasting licences to carry on radio programming undertakings to serve Owen Sound, Windsor and Peterborough, Ontario /

Plusieurs demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'entreprises de programmation de radio pour desservir Owen Sound, Windsor et Peterborough (Ontario)

 

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Rita Cugini                       Chairperson / Présidente

Peter Menzies                     Commissioner / Conseiller

Helen del Val                     Commissioner / Conseillère

 

 

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Cindy Ventura                     Secretary / Secrétaire

Joe Aguiar                        Hearing Manager /

                                  Gérant de l'audience

Kelly-Anne Smith                  Legal Counsel /

                                  Conseillère juridique

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

 

Rooms B C D                       Salons B C D

Delta Hotel London Armouries      Hôtel Delta London Armouries

325 Dundas Street                 325, rue Dundas

London, Ontario                   London (Ontario)

 

December 10, 2007                 Le 10 décembre 2007

 

- iv -

 

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE I

 

 

PRÉSENTATION PAR / PRESENTATION BY:

 

2079966 Ontario Limited                             5 /   26

 

Blackburn Radio Inc.                               60 /  403

 

Larche Communications Inc.                        120 /  779

 

Evanov Communications Inc.                        169 / 1079

 

 

 

PHASE II

 

No interventions / Aucune intervention

 

 

 

PHASE III

 

 

INTERVENTION PAR / INTERVENTION BY:

 

Jamie Pettit                                      221 / 1380

 

Walkerton and District Health Services Foundation 233 / 1448

 

Bayshore Broadcasting Corporation                 240 / 1500

 

 

 

PHASE IV

 

 

REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:

 

Evanov Communications Inc.                        262 / 1613

 

Blackburn Radio Inc.                              272 / 1660

 

2079966 Ontario Limited                           282 / 1710

 

 

 

                   London, Ontario / London (Ontario)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Monday, December 10, 2007

    at 0930 / L'audience débute le lundi

    10 décembre 2007 à 0930

LISTNUM 1 \l 11                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen and welcome to this public hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12                My name is Rita Cugini and I am the CRTC Regional Commissioner for Ontario.  In case you hadn't guessed by now, I will be presiding over this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13                Joining me on the panel are my colleagues, Helen del Val, Regional Commissioner for British Columbia and the Yukon, and Peter Menzies, National Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14                The Commission team assisting us includes Hearing Manager Joe Aguiar, who is also Manager of English Radio Operations; Kelly‑Anne Smith, Legal Counsel;and Cindy Ventura, Hearing Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15                Please speak with Ms Ventura if you have any questions with regard to hearing procedures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16                At this hearing we will begin by considering four applications to operate a new English‑language FM commercial radio station in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17                The panel will then examine two applications to operate a new FM commercial radio station in Windsor.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18                Finally, we will look at six applications to operate a new English‑language FM commercial radio station in Peterborough, as well as an application to convert the English‑language commercial radio station CKRU Peterborough from the AM band to the FM band and three applications to operate a new English‑language FM commercial radio station in Kawartha Lakes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19                I will now invite the Hearing Secretary, Cindy Ventura, to explain the procedures we will be following.  Ms Ventura...

LISTNUM 1 \l 110               THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 111               Before beginning, I would like to go over a few housekeeping matters to ensure the proper conduct of the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 112               Le service d'interprétation simultanée est disponible durant cette audience.  Vous pouvez vous procurer un récepteur auprès du technicien à l'arrière de la salle.  L'interprétation anglaise se trouve au canal 1, et l'interprétation française au canal 2.

LISTNUM 1 \l 113               When you are in the hearing room we would ask that you please turn off your cell phones, beepers and BlackBerrys as they are an unwelcome distraction and they cause interference on the internal communication systems used by our translators.  We would appreciate your cooperation in this regard throughout the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 114               We expect the hearing to take approximately four and a half days, starting today until Friday.  Starting tomorrow we will begin each morning at 9:00 a.m.  We will take an hour for lunch, a break in the morning and a break in the afternoon.  We will let you know of any schedule changes as they may occur.

LISTNUM 1 \l 115               The Gunnery Ballroom will serve as the examination room where you can examine the public files of the applications being considered at this hearing.  As indicated in the agenda, the telephone number of the examination room is 519‑660‑0688.

LISTNUM 1 \l 116               There is a verbatim transcript of the hearing being taken by the court reporter sitting at the table in front of me.  If you have any questions on how to obtain all or part of this transcript, please approach the court reporter during a break.

LISTNUM 1 \l 117               Please note that the full transcript will be made available on the Commission's website shortly after the conclusion of the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 118               Also, in Broadcasting Notice of Public Hearing 2007‑14‑4 the Commission announced its decision to consider two CBC Windsor technical amendment applications, items 7 and 8, as part of the non‑appearing phase of the public hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 119               For the record, the Commission was advised by Mr. Neeti P. Ray on his intention to submit an intervention commenting on the CBC application, item 7 on the Notice of Public Hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 120               Accordingly, the Commission has approved his request and Mr. Ray has submitted his intervention to the Commission with a copy to the CBC.  The CBC may file its written response by December 17th, 2007.

LISTNUM 1 \l 121               A copy of Mr. Ray's intervention is available in the public examination room and has been added to the public examination file.

LISTNUM 1 \l 122               Now, Madam Chair, we will proceed with item 1 on the agenda, which is an application by 2079966 Ontario Limited for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 123               The new station would operate on frequency 92.3 MHz (channel 222B) with an average effective radiated power of 32,000 watts (non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 104 metres).

LISTNUM 1 \l 124               Appearing for the Applicant is Mr. Brian Cooper.  Please introduce your colleagues and you will have 20 minutes for your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 125               Mr. Cooper.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 126               MR. COOPER:  Madam Chair, members of the Commission, my name is Brian Cooper.  I am President of 2079966 Ontario Limited, which owns and operates The Coast FM in Kincardine, which is situated 75 kilometres south of Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 127               I would like to begin by introducing our ownership group, and, in particular, give you a little background on myself and my partner, Danny McCarthy, as principals of this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 128               I have been in entertainment for the last 30 years.  Some highlights ‑‑ I was the former President and COO of the Toronto Argonauts when Wayne Gretsky and John CandY owned the club.

LISTNUM 1 \l 129               I was the former President and COO of Inside Sports, a TV broadcast and production company.  My partner in that venture was Mr. Larry Tanenbaum, who is the current Chairman of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, which owns the Toronto Maple Leafs and the Toronto Raptors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 130               While I was there, I was the founding partner of the NHL Network, along with TSN and the NHL, as well as Goal TV and the World Fishing Network.

LISTNUM 1 \l 131               Currently I am President and CEO of Sports and Entertainment.  We are a marketing consultancy group, with clients like Warner Brothers, Sirius Satellite Radio, Scotiabank, and a host of others.

LISTNUM 1 \l 132               My partner, Danny McCarthy, and I met 35 years ago at St. Mary's University as accounting students.  Dan is a chartered accountant.  He has 20 years in the investment banking industry.  He is currently Vice‑Chairman of CIBC World Markets, and has engineered some of the largest financing deals in Canadian corporate history.

LISTNUM 1 \l 133               One thing we both have in common is our love for rock'n'roll music.  Both Dan and I were DJs at St. Mary's University's radio station, and even to this date Dan is the lead singer of a rock group called The Hedge Funds.  Fortunately, he is not going to be singing for us today.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 134               On my right is Christopher Grossman, President of Haliburton Radio Broadcasting Group, which owns and operates 18 small market licences throughout Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 135               On my left, next to Danny, is the key builder of this application, Mike Brough, who is the General Manager of The Coast Kincardine FM, and will be the General Manager of The Pearl if our application is approved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 136               Next to Mike, on his left, is Lynda Cooper, who is the News Director of our Kincardine operation, and will be assuming that role in Owen Sound if our application is approved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 137               Also on the panel, on my right, is Wendy Gray, the Operations Manager of Haliburton Broadcasting Group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 138               Commissioners, our goal for this application is, one, to repatriate the rock radio tuning back to local radio in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 139               Two, to add a new local editorial and ownership voice in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 140               Three, to improve the balance of radio ownership in the Grey Bruce Region.

LISTNUM 1 \l 141               Four, to strengthen our station in Kincardine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 142               Five, to repatriate hundreds of thousands of radio ad spend dollars that are going out of market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 143               And six, to provide the citizens of Owen Sound with a much needed music genre that isn't currently being offered by a local radio operator.

LISTNUM 1 \l 144               We started The Coast FM in Ontario with great enthusiasm as a long‑time summer resident there and with strong ties to the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 145               The thought of making our contribution to the broadcast system was and is exciting.  The learning curve has been quite a ride, but Kincardine is on the air and is now very much a part of the fabric of the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 146               It is something I am very proud of.  Our focus on community and public service have become the tenets of our operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 147               It has not been without its challenges and a few unexpected obstacles. Particularly, when we first launched, some of the agreements we had in place to utilize existing towers were reneged upon.  This set us back and cost us significantly more money and time than we expected.

LISTNUM 1 \l 148               Needless to say, we are up and strong, and the operational delays have been overcome.  Regardless, we have been successful in launching Kincardine, and we are hoping to have our repeaters in Goderich and Port Elgin up and running shortly, once we receive approval from the Commission on our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 149               Part of our early success in Kincardine and assisting with our ability to overcome the start‑up obstacles was the participation of Haliburton Broadcasting Group.  Their experience, infrastructure and network provided us with invaluable resources.

LISTNUM 1 \l 150               The entire experience has provided us with the ability to expand our radio holdings, and we approach the possibility of launching in Owen Sound with great expectation and enthusiasm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 151               It is our goal to build a new radio company.  We want to be a new, vibrant entry into the radio business.  It is our sense that the radio business needs new, vibrant ownership, and we are up for it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 152               We need to create synergies and efficiencies.  We believe that a formula of programming, marketing and community integration will be a success in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 153               We invite you to ask anyone in our market about The Coast FM.  Their answer is, inevitably, that we are their voice in the community and their choice in music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 154               We believe that the efficiencies we will gain by having The Pearl will allow us to provide the residents of both Kincardine and Owen Sound with great community‑based radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 155               MR. McCARTHY:  Good morning.  We are here today to apply for a rock radio station, The Pearl, for the city of Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 156               Our process in making this application was, first, to find a format that had proven top‑rated BBM demand over a long period of time, a format that the Owen Sound radio listener wanted.

LISTNUM 1 \l 157               Second, that we were sensitive to the size of the market, and that the format was financially viable, at both an audience and advertising level, and the new service was not a fringe or narrow format that had little chance for success.

LISTNUM 1 \l 158               Third, that we had the people resources to launch a rock product successfully, and that also had a proven track record of programming successfully in the Owen Sound radio market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 159               Fourth, that this new station would add a new and relevant editorial and ownership voice to the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 160               Fifth, as a new ownership entry, that we have the support and expertise of a radio company with small market expertise and a proven track record of success in launching a single station up against a one‑owner, multi‑cluster radio group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 161               We looked for a format that had little to no effect on the incumbent local radio operator.

LISTNUM 1 \l 162               Our audience will be largely comprised of repatriated Owen Sound rock radio listeners who are currently listening to The Bull.

LISTNUM 1 \l 163               Finally, and most importantly, in this time of rapid technological change affecting the radio business, our business plan, revenue estimates, and CCD benefits are realistic and sensible for the size of the Owen Sound market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 164               Our goal is not to make unrealistic promises in both CCD revenue and audience estimates and come back three years from now to say we can't make a go of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 165               MS GRAY:  Owen Sound is an oddity in southern Ontario because one broadcaster owns three licences in a relatively small market, but the top‑rated station is one that is broadcast 85 kilometres away, in another small market, Wingham, Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 166               Owen Sound is a rare jewel.  It melds together the economic and retail hustle and bustle of the hub of the Grey Bruce Region and the natural pristine beauty of Georgian Bay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 167               Owen Sound is rich with nature.  Its hidden streams, waterfalls, exotic gardens of rare orchids and ferns, clear blue water and relaxing beaches make it a tourist destination for nature lovers and historians alike.

LISTNUM 1 \l 168               But Owen Sound is growing.  This 150‑year‑old city is expanding and prospering as new commercial and industrial growth populates the northwest end of Grey County, and is located in or just adjacent to Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 169               It has a strong and motivated workforce.  Employment is healthiest during the spring, summer and fall, due to the seasonal tourism that Owen Sound enjoys.

LISTNUM 1 \l 170               However, Bruce Power, the County of Grey, and Durham Furniture are ranked the top three employers, with over 500 employed.  There are also five employers with over 250 employees, and 13 employers with 100 to 250 employees.

LISTNUM 1 \l 171               It offers a unique alternative to big city living, with affordable and available housing compared to other urban centres to the south.

LISTNUM 1 \l 172               In the past 10 years the city of Owen Sound has made significant strides to improve its image as not only a nature‑based travel destination, but also a business, commercial and cultural centre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 173               Owen Sound is a unique city, vibrant with nature, and rich in its history, as it was once known as the Chicago of the North.

LISTNUM 1 \l 174               Retail sales are robust and healthy in Owen Sound.  According to FP Market, retail sales growth is expected to increase by 22.7 percent between 2007 and 2012.

LISTNUM 1 \l 175               Retail spending is well above the national average.  According to FP Market, retail spending in Owen Sound, Bruce County and Grey County could reach $1.7 billion this year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 176               FP Market also projects retail sales to grow by 8.2 percent in Grey County and by 15 percent in Bruce County by 2009.

LISTNUM 1 \l 177               According to Statistics Canada, Owen Sound's population grew by 2.1 percent between 2001 and 2006.

LISTNUM 1 \l 178               In Owen Sound central, the 12‑plus BBM cell population is 114,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 179               Taking into consideration the profitability of the existing stations in Owen Sound and the demand for a current and classic rock radio station, we believe the time is right for a new radio service in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 180               The largest benefit of The Pearl would be to its listeners.  Currently, rock radio listeners, especially men aged 18 to 49, are tuning out of market for rock radio.  That leaves them with little, if any, local news content, traffic, weather and community information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 181               A new rock radio FM service in Owen Sound would repatriate that lucrative demographic to a local service, providing the local information they need to know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 182               Couple that with the repatriation of advertising spending into Owen Sound, we feel that The Pearl would have little impact on the existing local radio operator.

LISTNUM 1 \l 183               The Pearl will offer this vibrant city a distinct new editorial voice, while repatriating out‑of‑market tuning with its rock‑based format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 184               It would also enhance synergies with our existing Kincardine station, CIYN.

LISTNUM 1 \l 185               MR. BROUGH:  Mother of all rock, 92.3 The Pearl.  Pearly inlay is used to dress up guitars.  Pearl was Janis Joplin's nickname.

LISTNUM 1 \l 186               The Pearl is a highly valued gemstone that is associated with richness and class.  The Pearl rock station will resonate with class.  It will be a mature presentation of the greatest rock music ever recorded.

LISTNUM 1 \l 187               I was the original program director of Blackburn Radio's rock station The Bull, CIBU, in Wingham.  I put that station together, knowing the huge effect it would have in the Owen Sound market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 188               Owen Sound is a rock town.  It has long been a hotbed for live rock acts.  The community supports live music, and now it will have a radio station that will provide 100 percent support for local musicians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 189               Years ago I can remember seeing the great Canadian punk band Teenage Head at a popular Owen Sound nightclub called The Downtowner.  It is no longer there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 190               I saw another great Canadian band called The Kings at Westhill Secondary School.

LISTNUM 1 \l 191               The list of fairly major rock acts to hit the Sound at various venues is legendary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 192               There is also a groundswell of local musicians who will prosper and flourish because of The Pearl.

LISTNUM 1 \l 193               I have worked with many of the seasoned music veterans in Owen Sound over the years, hiring many at an area nightclub I once owned, and I am looking forward to breaking new ground with the new, exciting talent that is there right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 194               A song will never become a classic unless it receives some airtime and somebody actually hears it.  The Pearl will champion new Canadian rock acts, with even more emphasis on the tremendous local talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 195               Every two hours we will play a new, emerging, local Owen Sound musician.  The Pearl listeners will feel like they are part of something very special, and they will be.  The Pearl will encourage listener participation at every level.  The Pearl listeners will be encouraging local musicians to be the best they can be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 196               The Bull, even though it is not an Owen Sound central station has achieved great success in Owen Sound.  Sales were good right out of the gate.  BBM numbers, they have been tremendous.

LISTNUM 1 \l 197               CIBU, The Bull out of Wingham, is the most listened to radio service in Owen Sound central for both key advertising demographics, adults 25 to 54 and adults 18 to 49, as well as all male demos under the age of 54.

LISTNUM 1 \l 198               It is clear that the incumbent radio stations in Owen Sound are not in particular serving the rock listener age 18 to 54.  These listeners are tuning to CIBU for the music with no local information and they are finding alternative choices to radio, such as the radio, internet iPods and even satellite.

LISTNUM 1 \l 199               A new rock radio service would bring those lost radio listeners back to a local service.  If an out of Owen Sound central radio station like The Bull can create such an impact, imagine what an Owen Sound originating rock station will do.  Rock radio is one of the most exciting formats in all of broadcasting.  A hybrid meshing of classic rock and modern rock has made the format a comfortable choice for rock fans of both eras.  The benefit to the local music scene would increase tenfold with the approval of our application.  We will adopt Owen Sound's impressive musical community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1100              Local music will be programmed throughout the regular broadcast day every other hour and also during a special highlight program we call "Live from Owen Sound" which will feature local musicians performing live or out on location.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1101              It is my experience that a community falls in love with a radio station that is proud of its local talent and has no fear of showcasing that talent as we already do at Coast FM in Kincardine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1102              Canadian music in general will be of high priority.  There are so many exciting emerging Canadian artists that need increased exposure, which is why our station when it comes to modern rock will place greater emphasis on Canadian as opposed to international artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1103              By providing fresh Canadian music and local musicians getting their first exposure on the radio, we will deliver promotions that revolve around cultivating the local music scene.  The Pearl will be a breath of fresh air in Owen Sound.  The Pearl will feature a fat music universe that the area has never been exposed to.  We will go deeper on albums; spin a wealth of local recordings.  The audience wants and needs diversity which means not only going deeper with popular artists but expanding the number of acts, actual acts in the music universe.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1104              When I was with Blackburn Radio Owen Sound was a focal point when we built The Bull.  And with that experience as a rock radio programmer and Owen Sound and area concert promoter and my upbringing in the Owen Sound area, I have a wealth of research information and street experience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1105              MS COOPER:  Our experience as a small market radio operator gives us an edge in the delivery of news and information.  Throughout our collective years of experience it has shown us that most important component of radio programming is the relevant local information we give to our listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1106              The Pearl would provide 64 local newscasts weekly along with 64 updates on cultural, charitable and recreational activities and events.  We will also offer traffic, weather, marine weather, business and regional fire advisories for a total of six and a half hours of local spoken word programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1107              The Pearl will service its listeners and will be on local first, covering topics of local and regional interests.  The information packages will not only service the city of Owen Sound but also the Grey Bruce region and smaller catchment communities such as Port Elgin, Meaford and Chatsworth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1108              We are also committed to providing the Cape Crocker and Saugeen First Nations communities with relevant news and entertainment programming, produced specifically for our aboriginal listeners.  The Pearl will share synergies with Haliburton Broadcasting Group, already a leader in aboriginal affairs programming and small market news content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1109              The Pearl would air an aboriginal news and current affairs program called "Bomseda" weekly in prime time.  An aboriginal news reporter would regularly report and highlight issues of interest to the First Nations communities in the Grey Bruce region and throughout our regularly scheduled news packages Monday through Sunday.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1110              The Owen Sound market needs a new and a fresh editorial voice.  With just one local radio operator serving news and information to the community, the area needs a distinct and fresh approach to delivering the local news.  Because of our connection to the existing Haliburton Broadcasting Group, Moose Radio Network, we will share information and synergies reflected through central and northern Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1111              Two news reporters and a community stringer will be hired to deliver local news content from the outlying areas to our news room, a news room staffed by residents of Grey Bruce region.  Those staff members will live, work and play in the community and will have the dedication to our listeners to deliver news that matters to them and is about them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1112              Owen Sound is home to a thriving sports community.  The Owen Sound Attack of the OHL and its supporting Junior "B" franchise, the Owen Sound Greys, will be highlighted in an expanded sports feature reported weekly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1113              Lacrosse is also huge in Owen Sound and both the Owen Sound Woodsmen and Own Sound Rams would benefit from the on air support of The Pearl.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1114              Owen Sound also has a strong and vibrant cultural community.  In 2004 Owen Sound was named the cultural capital of Canada and, according to Statistics Canada, Owen Sound enjoys a higher than average cultural employment.  Those employers include the Roxy Theatre, the Summerfolk Music and Crafts Festival, the Tom Thomson Memorial Art Gallery, the Billy Bishop Museum and the Owen Sound Marine and Rail Museum, all of which would be highlighted in a weekly cultural program designed to inspire interest in the rich cultural fabric of Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1115              The flourishing business community will also have a voice on The Pearl.  We propose a weekly segment dedicated to the Chamber of Commerce as well as the downtown improvement area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1116              The Pearl will also provide a public service to many of Owen Sound's community groups and organizations.  We believe strongly in providing airtime to organizations that are dedicated to improving the lives and circumstances of our listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1117              In Owen Sound service clubs such as the Kiwanis Club, the Owen Sound family YMCA and Big Sisters of North Grey and Owen Sound would be invited into the station to update our listeners on their activities and their events.  Other organizations such as the Women's House of Bruce and Grey, Keystone Child, Youth and Family Services and the South Grey Bruce Literacy Council would be given access to our community calendar segments and regular interview opportunities on The Pearl.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1118              Finally, we believe in a healthy community and to ensure that we will continue to assist health services as we have in central and northern Ontario.  The Grey Bruce Regional Health Centre Foundation can be assured the full support of The Pearl as they try to raise funds for minimally invasive surgery operating rooms, a mobile digital sea arm and new nurse call systems.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1119              To enhance our on air information content we will also create a web‑based service that will highlight local public organizations and community information, all by the click of your mouse.  That website will also provide valuable information to visitors to the Owen Sound area through links with the Chamber, the DIA and other tourist destinations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1120              We have a proven track record of delivering information that matters to our listeners.  Our news philosophy is simple:  provide local and relevant information to all of our listeners in a responsible and diverse manner.  That commitment to our listeners will not only keep them connected to their community but also to the rest of the province and the rest of the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1121              MR. BROUGH:  We are committed to supporting local musicians with on air exposure, but also we will make a significant financial contribution to Canadian talent development.  Over the term of its licence The Pearl will contribute $70,000 in direct contributions to Canadian talent development.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1122              100 percent of our CCD contribution will be directed to FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1123              The Pearl will also make a substantial non‑cash CTD contribution.  The Pearl will take an active role in working with the local music community, providing local programming through the regular broadcast day and a showcase of local and emerging talent with live from Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1124              The station will promote the local music scene not only through its spoken word program but also opening doors to live venue concert opportunities sponsored by The Pearl.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1125              Also, on a biannual basis we will record and produce a compilation CD of local talent that will showcase that talent and be sold to listeners with all proceeds benefiting local school music programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1126              The Pearl will also work with local high schools providing mentoring for their media programs.  The Pearl will also showcase the same high school students with a one‑hour radio show weekly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1127              MR. McCARTHY:  Owen Sound is a city enjoying strong growth in both population and retail spending.  The Pearl will have little impact to the current radio operator.  We expect the bulk of our radio advertising income will come from new advertisers and repatriated from out‑of‑market spending.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1128              MS COOPER:  Madam Chair and Commissioners, we believe we have presented a solid, logical and sensible business plan for a new FM radio service for the Owen Sound market.  There is clearly a disparity in service to the market, a market only served by one radio operator with the top‑rated station coming from 85 kilometres away.  The Pearl will correct this disparity as well as provide a new editorial and ownership voice to the area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1129              We believe the highlights of our application are a new editorial voice for Owen Sound, a new ownership voice for Owen Sound, a local voice for rock radio listeners currently not served by a local operator, $70,000 in CTD over the term of the licence, local news and information enhanced by the relationship with the existing Haliburton Broadcasting Group's newsrooms across the province, aboriginal programming to serve Cape Crocker and Saugeen Shores First Nations communities, 12 new jobs for local broadcasters, repatriation of advertising dollars to the local market; a realistic and solid business plan that will have little to no impact on the existing radio operator.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1130              The City of Owen Sound and, in particular, its rock radio listeners need this new service.  We feel that we will bring to Owen Sound's radio listeners a strong, diverse news and information package that would offer listeners a choice of both local information and music content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1131              We have the programming expertise.  We have a vibrant new ownership group, local market knowledge along with the commitment and the resources for the long term.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1132              This concludes our presentation and we would appreciate the opportunity to answer any questions about our application the Commission has.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1133              Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1134              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Cooper, Mr. McCarthy and your colleagues.  Welcome to this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1135              Just for the record, you have attached some appendices to your oral presentation, so could you just identify what those are and if this is new information?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1136              MS COOPER:  That information is included in the actual application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1137              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it's not new information?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1138              MR. GROSSMAN:  No, it's not.  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1139              THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.  I just wanted to get that on the record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1140              Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1141              I apologize for the buzz.  It seems to be my microphone, a bad thing to happen at a radio hearing but we hope to get it resolved on the break.  So just bear with us for this presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1142              Mr. Brough, I want to thank you for ‑‑ first of all, for providing a little bit more context on the choice of the name "The Pearl".  And I was wondering is "Mother of All Rock" going to be your tagline?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1143              MR. BROUGH:  Yes, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1144              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, because when I think of The Pearl I thought that sounds more like an easy listening station to me.  But thanks for the context.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1145              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So I do want to start with the choice of format because, as we know, once you choose the format that forms the basis for your business plan.  And you are proposing a blend of current and classic rock, targeting a predominantly male audience.  Now, according to your application age 25 to 54, but in your oral presentation this morning you seemed to focus more on a younger demo; that is, 18 to 54.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1146              So what is your core target audience for this radio station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1147              MR. BROUGH:  I will turn that over to Christopher.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1148              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1149              MR. GROSSMAN:  I think the reference that Mike made where it is all demographics from 18‑54, but the primary focus of the application is adults 25‑54, which is the core audience of The Bull out of Wingham.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1150              THE CHAIRPERSON:  What would you say is the median age therefore?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1151              MR. GROSSMAN:  I think it would probably a 39‑40 year‑old male.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1152              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, thank you for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1153              And obviously you looked at what currently exists in the market.  You looked at where the out‑of‑market tuning is going.  Did you take any other factors into consideration in coming up with this target demo?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1154              MR. COOPER:  Madam Chair, we did. We did a survey of the marketplace, of existing radio listenership and their patterns.  We looked at the out‑of‑market tuning as well and came to the conclusion that this was the underserved portion of the music genre that we needed to focus on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1155              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Did you include the survey in your application?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1156              MR. COOPER:  The reference to a survey is looking at the BBM ratings historically over the last few years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1157              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  I believe I read in your application that you say that 24 per cent of out‑of‑market tuning goes to CIBU‑FM, is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1158              MR. GROSSMAN:  I believe it is 30 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1159              THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is up to 30 per cent.  How much of that ‑‑ you are shaking your head.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1160              MR. GROSSMAN:  The ratings just came out last week and I think two things to note. Number one, was from my reference a record of 70.9 per cent of out‑of‑market tuning in Owen Sound right now and, The Bull, I think in the Rank Report that we gave you, which is the most updated rating, is 24 and change in terms of a share in the marketplace right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1161              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And how much of that out‑of‑market tuning do you hope to capture?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1162              MR. GROSSMAN:  Mike?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1163              MR. BROUGH:  We expect to capture 15 to 20 per cent of the market share with The Bull.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1164              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that would come all from the out‑of‑market ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1165              MR. BROUGH:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1166              THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ currently from those people who are listening to the Wingham station, correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1167              MR. BROUGH:  Most of those numbers would come as repatriated listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1168              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  In response to deficiencies you did provide a limited play list of artists.  And I see that it is a little bit expanded in the appendices that you attached to your oral presentation.  Have you done a comparison to determine the level of duplication with the Wingham station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1169              MR. BROUGH:  When you are working with a rock format there is going to be a lot of duplication.  What sets our particular application apart from the others, and even The Bull itself, is how many spins we are going to be giving emerging artists, emerging Canadian artists, local Owen Sound artists.  So there is going to be a huge diversity when it comes to that with our actual format compared to that of The Bull.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1170              THE CHAIRPERSON:  The reason I am asking is I am trying to get a handle on what is going to be so attractive about your format and your musical selections that will prompt those people who are in the Owen Sound market who currently listen to Wingham to change the dial and tune into your radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1171              MR. COOPER:  Madam Chair, just to add to that.  I think Mike alluded to it, but the fact that it is local, it is not only local artists, it is local news, local traffic and it is the local offering that we can provide to the listeners in that area rather than tuning out‑of‑market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1172              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it is not just simply duplication of the music?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1173              MR. COOPER:  No, not at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1174              THE CHAIRPERSON:  In other words, if they like the music on Wingham then they are going to like the music on The Bull, because you are going to copy their format or their choice of artists?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1175              MR. COOPER:  No, we wouldn't be copying their format.  We would have our own distinct sound, as we do in Kincardine, and we are still in competition with those radio stations as well.  But the fact that we ‑‑ incremental programming would be about local and we think local sells.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1176              THE CHAIRPERSON:  You project a ‑‑ is it a 12 per cent share in the first year, at launch, you project to capture 12 per cent share of tuning in the Owen Sound market, right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1177              MR. COOPER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1178              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you have projections for years two to seven?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1179              MR. COOPER:  Christopher.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1180              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes, I think the accumulation of the share, I think largely, we are thinking of repatriating about 85 to 90 per cent of The Bull's audience in the seventh year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1181              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right, but what would that translate into in terms of share of the Owen Sound market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1182              MR. GROSSMAN:  Again, because you'd have to take into consideration the duplication that those two stations would enjoy.  I think that would probably come in at about 22 to 23 per cent share in the market

LISTNUM 1 \l 1183              THE CHAIRPERSON:  By year seven?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1184              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1185              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Could you provide us with a break down of your projected share ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1186              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes, we can.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1187              THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ from years two to seven?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1188              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1189              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Terrific, thank you.  Is there any other out‑of‑market tuning that you expect to repatriate?  In other words, is the Owen Sound listening audience listening to anything else other than the Wingham station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1190              MR. GROSSMAN:  I think the male rock station has a disproportionately high share of tuning in that marketplace ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1191              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1192              MR. GROSSMAN:  ‑‑ from Wingham.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1193              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, in terms of the impact on the existing stations, your supplementary brief specifies that 15 per cent of your advertising revenues will come from existing stations.  Some might say that is minimal impact. Do you see any duplication with the current AC station that is in the market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1194              MR. GROSSMAN:  I think, you know, just from my personal experience when we have, in Haliburton, have launched single stations up against multi‑station clusters what we found, normally, is that the market tends to, you know, the incumbents tend to be affected marginally if the format ‑‑ in this case, which is glaringly obvious, and then the market tends to grow.  So I think that you have a lot of disenfranchised rock advertisers, there is a lot of repatriation advertiser opportunities for us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1195              And I just think of the experience that we had in North Bay where we launched the station, had strong ratings out of the age, and overachieved both the estimates that we made to the CRTC as well as what we think we can do in this market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1196              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it is safe to assume that your contention is that since the format currently doesn't exist from a local broadcaster the impact, therefore, on that existing broadcaster is ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1197              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes, I think it is contention and the experience that we have as well as Mike being the author of The Bull in Wingham.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1198              THE CHAIRPERSON:  In terms of advertising revenues to come from new advertisers you estimate that 50 per cent increasing to 85 per cent by year seven of your advertising revenues will come from new advertisers.  Some would say this is rather high.  So what evidence do you have to sustain this dependency on new advertisers in this market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1199              MR. GROSSMAN:  I think the evidence would be the local newspapers in both those markets, both of them weekly.  They are best described as the yellow pages in terms of thickness.  There is a tremendous opportunity in that market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1200              And again, you know, drawing on our experience, when we go into these markets as a single station up against a cluster, we tend to find that they have had one sales rep come for 20 years or 30 years to specific customers.  And again, we are not suggesting that Bayshore hasn't done a wonderful job doing radio in the market, which they have I am sure.  But the reality is if you get more people in front of more advertisers in a local small market you will get more advertising.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1201              THE CHAIRPERSON:  But should this not come to pass, should your seemingly reliance on new advertisers not come to pass, what effect will that have on your business plan overall?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1202              MR. GROSSMAN:  Again, I would suggest that it is from our experience in doing it and being successful doing it.  I don't know, necessarily, if that is the case when you have a single market with one sales force over a long period of time talking to advertisers about radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1203              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  I am going to move on now to the specifics of your proposal as they relate to local spoken word programming, live‑to‑air and voice tracking, programming staff levels, synergies and, finally, CCD.  And we will take these one at a time, obviously.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1204              So spoken word.  You are proposing 6.5 hours of spoken word of which 3.5 hours will be news.  You also say that of that news portion 70 per cent would be dedicated to local news stories.  So if my math is correct, of the 3.5 hours of news, 2 hours and 45 minutes are devoted to local news.  Is that right?  Have I got my grade 12 math right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1205              MR. COOPER:  Yes, you do, Madam, Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1206              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1207              And so the 1 hour and 30 minutes that is left of the news portion, will that be regional, national and international news stories?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1208              MR. COOPER: Madam Chair, I am going to direct this to Wendy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1209              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1210              MS GRAY:  You are correct, that will be dedicated to regional, provincial, national, international news, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1211              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  So if we have taken care of the 3.5 hours of the total 6.5 hours of spoken word, what makes up the balance of three hours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1212              MS GRAY:  The rest of the spoken word programming will be community information through our community calendars.  We have also factored in a health watch program because the demographic is aging, health issues are important, business issues as well, we have a business report.  We also have a live announcer speak as well, factored into that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1213              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, I get that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1214              MS GRAY:  So the balance of it, basically, is going to be local information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1215              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And what about surveillance material, where would that factor in? Is that in the 3 hours or the 3.5 hours, news, weather?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1216              MS GRAY:  That would also factor into the other 3.5 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1217              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Part of the 3.5 or part of the 3?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1218              MS GRAY:  Part of the 3 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1219              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  You spoke about it in your oral presentation, but in your application as well you are proposing to give local high school students their own weekly one‑hour radio show?  Is that in the 3.5 hours or the 3 hours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1220              MR. COOPER:  Madam Chair, we actually did that in Kincardine.  Mike, could you speak to that please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1221              MR. BROUGH:  Sure.  Yes, what a wonderful program and what a way to mentor.  We took a media class.  I did actually this in Huntsville as well, I was up there for 10 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1222              And I approached the high school, because I think it is very important to get the youth involved.  You get the youth, you get their parents, you get their aunts and uncles involve din your radio station as well, it is that commitment and passion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1223              So we bring the kids in, I give them radio 101 and then I put them to work and they put together their own one‑hour show.  I let them choose the music from the music universe and they can spin as many local artists as they want to and that is a full hour, once a week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1224              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that is part of the 3 hours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1225              MR. BROUGH:  And that is part of the 3 hours.  Not, that is not a part of ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1226              MS GRAY:  That is not part of the ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1227              MR. BROUGH:  ‑‑ that is addition to our 3 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1228              MS GRAY:  ‑‑ no, that is not part of the 3 hours.  That is in addition to the ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1229              THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is in addition?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1230              MS GRAY:  Yes, that is in addition, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1231              MR. BROUGH:  That is in addition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1232              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Have you contacted local high school to gauge the interest in such a project?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1233              MR. BROUGH:  I haven't as of yet, but I will tell you from experience, it will be instantaneous and they will be very happy to see me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1234              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Who is going to be responsible for ensuring ‑‑ I mean, high school kids, right, I mean, who is going to be responsible for ensuring that this program will meet broadcast standards?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1235              MR. BROUGH:  That would be myself as the general manager of The Bull in Owen Sound, that would be my responsibility and I will take it on gladly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1236              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And just to be absolutely sure, all of the spoken word programming is averaged over the broadcast week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1237              MS GRAY:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1238              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, thank you. Will you be doing any voice tracking or automated programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1239              MS GRAY:  We will have voice tracking.  Our middays and evenings will be voice tracks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1240              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So how many hours live?  How many hours voice tracked?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1241              MS GRAY:  We will have 126 hours of local live programming and ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1242              MR. GROSSMAN:  Not quite.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1243              MS GRAY:  Not quite.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1244              MR. GROSSMAN:  The originating programming will be 126 hours and, the block of Monday to Friday, 64 hours a week will be voice tracked.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1245              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sixty‑four?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1246              MR. GROSSMAN:  Sixty‑four.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1247              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1248              Now, in terms of who will be doing all of this work.  We do have your projected staffing and, therefore, salary levels.  And there is the context of the fact that, if licensed, you will be competing in not only for listeners but also for staff.  And this competition, I mean, you are going to be facing competition from a well‑heeled incumbent in the market and so I would just like to explore this area with you for a minute.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1249              I believe in your oral presentation, if I am not mistaken, you said you hired two people to staff the newsroom; is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1250              MS GRAY:  That's two news reporters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1251              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1252              MS GRAY:  And then we will also have an announcer for the morning drive.  So it's three ‑‑ the news director will also be the morning show co‑host and news reader ‑‑ an additional two reporters and a part‑time freelance stringer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1253              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And these three people essentially will be responsible for all of the spoken word content on the station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1254              MS GRAY:  They will be responsible for the news content and the surveillance information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1255              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1256              MS GRAY:  The announcers ‑‑ our morning show and our announcers will also cultivate local content throughout their shows as part of their show prep.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1257              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  What evidence do you have that the salary levels proposed are commensurate with this market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1258              MR. GROSSMAN:  They are just averages that ‑‑ my personal experience in being in the markets that we are in, for a market that size they are certainly measurable and attainable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1259              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you are confident that you can attract the kind of talent that you are going to need to compete, like I said, not only with the incumbent but also with out‑of‑market tuning?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1260              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes, we are looking forward to it.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1261              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And I am sure that talent is as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1262              Now in terms of synergies, you spoke about it in your application, specifically synergies with the Kincardine station, and in your oral presentation today you also talked about synergies with Haliburton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1263              So you could you please elaborate on both of those?  Where do you expect to see the synergies and do these synergies represent in the long run cost savings to you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1264              MR. COOPER:  Madam Chair, the synergies we gain from Haliburton are tremendous in that they ‑‑ not just the experience that Christopher and his group provide to us but the infrastructure that they provide to us, whether it is in accounting or in the technical area, we have gained a lot in that area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1265              By owning two stations, we obviously will be having some multitasking going on, allowing for us to gain some efficiencies through that and through personnel as well.  I am not saying that we will be bringing new personnel into the market into the Owen Sound station but there will definitely be some synergies gained.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1266              THE CHAIRPERSON:  What kind of multitasking?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1267              MS GRAY:  Our multitasking, just by way of reference, our program director would also be the morning ‑‑ or the afternoon drive announcer.  Our news director, as I mentioned, would be our morning show co‑host and news reader.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1268              We would have a new hire that would be a full‑time weekend/specialty programming person who would take care of The Pearl after hours as well as doing some voice tracking.  A new hire promotion assistant as well as an announcer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1269              So those are ‑‑ we have in total four multitasking positions planned.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1270              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right, but do any of these people also work for the Kincardine station or for Haliburton?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1271              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes, and they would share those responsibilities with Kincardine as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1272              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And will there be any sharing of programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1273              MS GRAY:  There will be one shared program with HBG, which would be our Aboriginal programming Bomseda and that would be shared but it would include also information from Saugeen Shores and Cape Crocker.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1274              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So are there staff members who will be working exclusively for The Pearl, who won't have any other responsibilities, and who would they be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1275              MR. GROSSMAN:  Eight of the 12 people work exclusively for The Pearl.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1276              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And what would those positions be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1277              MS GRAY:  They would be the two news reporters ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1278              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Then I misunderstood.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1279              MS GRAY:  ‑‑ the news stringer ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1280              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, that is fine.  I am sorry, I misunderstood then.  I thought that the news reporter and the stringer would also be working at the Kincardine station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1281              MS GRAY:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1282              MR. COOPER:  It is a busy day, Madam Chair.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1283              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1284              We will move on to CCD.  In your response to deficiencies dated August 17, you commit to an over and above CCD contribution of $10,000 annually.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1285              Will you accept this as a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1286              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1287              MR. COOPER:  Yes, we will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1288              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I love it when people answer that so quickly.  I dare someone to say no one day.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1289              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Further to that, you commit that 100 percent of the over and above contribution will be directed to FACTOR, although the Commercial Radio Policy requires that only 20 percent of the over and above be earmarked for FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1290              So give that this is a bit of a departure, will you accept a condition of licence that 100 percent of the over and above will be directed to FACTOR?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1291              MR. COOPER:  Yes, we will, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1292              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1293              There is one further question on CCD.  Please confirm your understanding that if licensed your station will have to contribute a basic annual CCD contribution imposed by regulation based on the station's total annual revenues and in the amounts as set out in paragraph 116 of the new Radio Policy, Public Notice CRTC‑2006‑158.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1294              MR. COOPER:  Yes, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1295              THE CHAIRPERSON:  The final line of questioning has to do with competition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1296              You are not the only applicant proposing this format.  As you know, Larche Communications is proposing a similar format or maybe you don't think it is similar at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1297              So I would like you to comment on whether or not you see similarities with the Larche proposal, what those are or what those differences may be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1298              MR. COOPER:  Christopher.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1299              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes, there is no question that it is very similar.  The genre, the music, the style, the ambiance of the presentation is probably the closest to us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1300              I can't comment on Paul's presentation but I can definitely comment on the fact that the benefit to the system here is clear, that we are going to strengthen and add a new ownership group to well‑known Canadian business people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1301              Obviously, we have got the architect of this station that is the top‑rated station in the market coming here to redesign or look for a new canvass for this station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1302              And obviously, I think the question you have got to ask yourself is ‑‑ you know, we are in it for the long haul.  These guys have the resources, the expertise, the connections to add a new vibrant ownership group into the broadcast system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1303              We have seen with consolidation with the company I worked for for years, Standard, CHUM, OK Group, the reality is they have to be replaced and I am excited to be working with these guys.  They are committed, crazy and resourceful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1304              I think that if you can see a way around this, the CCD benefits and the fact that this presentation, I believe, is strong, these guys are going to add a tremendous ownership to the radio broadcast system.  I really believe that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1305              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think you are anticipating the final question, which is always ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1306              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1307              THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ this is your two minutes but that is good rehearsal.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1308              THE CHAIRPERSON:  How many new commercial radio stations do you think the Owen Sound market can sustain?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1309              MR. COOPER:  Well, Madam Chair, deep down I would say one and that is us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1310              But having said that, when I look at what we have been reading, the pent‑up demand and we think the growth in the advertising dollar that it probably could take two.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1311              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And if we were to license more than one, as you are suggesting, you obviously, based on what Mr. Grossman just said, would not want us to license both you and Larche Communications?  That is the one that would have the most impact on your business plan, obviously.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1312              MR. COOPER:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1313              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Of the other two, is there one that would have the least impact on your business plan?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1314              MR. COOPER:  Probably the easy rock, easy listening, the Evanov.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1315              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Thank you, those are my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1316              My colleagues?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1317              Commissioner del Val.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1318              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you, panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1319              I just wanted to ask you about the ‑‑ in your opening statement you referred to the Cape Crocker First Nations communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1320              I am wondering whether you have any specific initiatives around that community.  For example, in the Blackburn application they referred to funding the traditional powwow and I am wondering whether you had something like that in mind.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1321              MR. COOPER:  I don't think we do but I will turn it over to Wendy.  We do have some specific programming related to that community, I believe.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1322              MS GRAY:  Haliburton Broadcasting Group has an Aboriginal reporter who is focused solely on maintaining contact and building contacts with the Aboriginal First Nations throughout the province.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1323              So we are dedicating two hours a week to that program and she has already had contact with the two particular First Nations.  So we will share that programming and her expertise in the First Nations communities with The Pearl in Owen Sound.  She would obviously focus on the Aboriginal communities that we have in our group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1324              That being said, she is also very, very vocal and very, very active in the First Nations communities.  So she would be spending some time there and then bringing back to the ownership group suggestions about what we could do as a radio company to help and to assist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1325              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.  And for the support that your station is going to give this First Nations community, particularly in reference to Cape Crocker, do you consider that as part of your CCD initiatives or it is apart from it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1326              MS GRAY:  I consider that apart from our CCD benefits.  That is something that we would do partially as a public service and partially as a service to our Aboriginal listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1327              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1328              Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1329              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Menzies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1330              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1331              I just want to confirm for a moment that your research on the market was entirely based on BBM and your own knowledge and experience of the industry or was there anything else that I was missing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1332              MR. GROSSMAN:  No, it is based on BBM, which I think arguably would be the most accurate measurement of audience tuning in the market of Owen Sound, versus research, either demand or speculative research that would suggest that they think it might be successful.  We know that the station historically over the last couple of years has that audience in the market, as recently as the last 30 days.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1333              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  And in terms of your advertising base, you speak about repatriating listeners.  Would you be repatriating advertisers locally or would you be selling in a market much bigger than Owen Sound as far as local sales as opposed to national sales?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1334              MR. GROSSMAN:  A combination of both of those.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1335              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  A combination of both?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1336              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1337              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Where do you see the biggest opportunity for growth because you have indicated you probably won't have ‑‑ although I expect you to like to have a bigger impact on the local ‑‑ you want to have some kind of impact on the local market but you have indicated you wouldn't have a huge economic impact on the local market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1338              So can you just expand for me a little bit on your advertising base?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1339              MR. GROSSMAN:  I think that largely, again through our experience in launching single stations up against multi single owner clusters we have found that a lot of new advertising comes into play, a lot of disenfranchised advertisers that moved out of the radio business and looked for alternative forms to advertise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1340              And finally, obviously when you have more people in the street making calls you are going to get new advertisers that don't ever advertise radio as part of the growth of the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1341              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  So those might come from existing print advertisers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1342              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes, which would be the number one focus of our new sales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1343              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay, thanks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1344              In terms of your news operation, I am curious to know a little bit more.  With two reporters and a stringer, can you give me some idea of what your beat structure might be, or your focus?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1345              Is it cops and courts?  Are they creating original stuff?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1346              Because, if there are just two of them, it is a big area to cover; right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1347              MS COOPER:  I just happen to have an example of what a newscast would be like ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1348              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Excellent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1349              MS COOPER:  ‑‑ this morning, had we been on the air as The Pearl.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1350              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  That was a fat pitch, wasn't it?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1351              MS COOPER:  As we said, 60 to 70 percent local content of our news.  So this may be today's newscast.

"Owen Sound Council wants Grey County to restrict development in rural areas, saying that the county's growth management strategy doesn't conform to provincial policy.  It says growth and development should be focused in settlement areas.

   Hanover..."

‑‑ one of the surrounding communities:

"...plans a new arena complex to move forward.  The town is looking for proposals from architects for the design of the building.

   The Bruce Grey Catholic School Board is set to get an extra $200,000 from the province for administrative funding.

   The Mill Creek Bridge in Saugeen Shores is considered unsafe.  The mayor is asking the county to consider repair costs during their deliberations."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1352              As we mentioned in our proposal and presentation, the Owen Sound Attack is the local OHL team.  Of course, we would have coverage of their games.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1353              Unfortunately, they weren't too successful over the weekend, but we report that anyway.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1354              Then, of course, the balance of the newscast would be provincial, national and international.  Of course, today in the news the two big stories are Conrad Black being sentenced and Pickton's verdict.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1355              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  What will be your sources of national news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1356              To whom are you planning on subscribing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1357              MS GRAY:  We subscribe to Command Newswire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1358              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I just wanted to confirm, too, that your Aboriginal Affairs reporter is a shared resource.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1359              Is that right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1360              MS GRAY:  That is a shared resource, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1361              MS COOPER:  I would like to add one thing about the news, if I could.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1362              One thing that we know, particularly from being in Kincardine ‑‑ we have truly been embraced by the community, and I love how Mike ‑‑ one of the catch phrases that he has for CIYN is that we are like a comfortable sweater.  You put us on and you leave us on all day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1363              Honestly, where news is concerned, people want to know what is going on in their own backyard.  They need to know what is going on in their own backyard, and you can be assured that The Pearl will provide that information to the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1364              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1365              In terms of your newscasts, are they shaped in any way, in terms of ‑‑ I understand that news is news, but what you cover and what you don't cover would apply to the sort of audience you are trying to appeal to, and if I got it correctly, your median target is a 39 to 40‑year‑old male.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1366              Is that right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1367              MR. COOPER:  In music listening, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1368              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  In music listening.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1369              MR. COOPER:  I believe, in news, it would be broader than that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1370              Wendy?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1371              MS GRAY:  Obviously, as you said, news is news, and we can't ignore what is going on around the world and in our own backyard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1372              But, as far as some of our less local news stories, what we would focus on would be health matters for that particular demographic, and business matters for that particular demographic, as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1373              So we would work those sorts of stories in and around our newscasts, with as much local content as we could.  If there was a major health story, we would go to a local physician and get his take on it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1374              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  You identified your presence as being a new editorial voice.  How would you want people to describe your editorial voice in the marketplace?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1375              MR. COOPER:  Fresh and new, and someone that may take a different look at the community and what is going on in the community than what they have been served over the last 30 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1376              MS COOPER:  If I could respond to that, as well; being in news myself, I know that they send all of us reporters.  I meet them all the time.  We go to cover the same event.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1377              There are never two stories written exactly the same.  It all depends on your reporter that you have at the scene.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1378              So, of course, our newscasts would be totally different from Bayshore's newscast, just because it would be someone else telling that story.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1379              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1380              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Legal counsel?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1381              MS SMITH:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1382              I have one question.  I would like to confirm that you are prepared to file with the Commission the breakdown of your projected market tuning by the end of the day December 17th, which is next Monday.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1383              MR. COOPER:  Not a problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1384              MS SMITH:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1385              THE CHAIRPERSON:  You now have your two minutes to wrap up your application and tell us why your proposal is the best one for Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1386              MR. COOPER:  Madam Chair, radio needs new ownership.  It needs vibrant and different points of view.  It needs investment, and it needs people that want to be in radio, and Danny and I are two of those people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1387              Owen Sound needs a new editorial voice, as we previously spoke of.  A local voice for rock radio listeners currently is not being served by the local operator.  We can deliver that demand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1388              We are committed to CTD, to the levels we have already set, and others.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1389              The local news and information, as Lynda alluded to, and Wendy talked about, is from a different perspective than what they have been receiving for many, many years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1390              We are also committed to Aboriginal programming, and I think that serving the Cape Crocker and Saugeen Shores First Nations communities with the experience that Haliburton Radio Broadcasting Group brings us is a great benefit to those communities.  They have people in the marketplace dealing with the current issues they have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1391              We are providing 12 new jobs for local broadcasters, and we think that is exciting for the community, as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1392              We are repatriating advertising dollars to the local market.  We did this with Kincardine, and we can do it again with Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1393              We think we have given you a realistic, solid business plan, which would have little or no impact on the existing radio operator.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1394              We are also surrounded by Bayshore, which has Goderich now, and they have Port Elgin and Owen Sound; Blackburn, that has Wingham, and other markets that are completely surrounding us.  We need to create efficiencies and synergies and strengthen our radio group, so that someday we will be a multi‑cluster owner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1395              Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1396              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for your participation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1397              We will now take a 15‑minute break, in the hopes of resolving this microphone issue.  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1035 / Suspension à 1035

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1050 / Reprise à 1050

LISTNUM 1 \l 1398              THE SECRETARY:  We are ready to begin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1399              We will now proceed with Item 2, which is an application by Blackburn Radio Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM Commercial Radio Programming Undertaking in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1400              The new station would operate on Frequency 92.3, Channel 222B, with an average effective radiated power of 14,635 watts, maximum effective radiated power of 29,000 watts, antenna height of 195.1 metres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1401              Appearing for the Applicant is Mr. Richard Costley White.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1402              Please introduce your colleagues.  You will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 1403              MR. COSTLEY WHITE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1404              Good morning, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, CRTC Staff, members of our industry, and all in attendance today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1405              My name is Richard Costley White, owner, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Blackburn Radio Incorporated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1406              Before we start our presentation‑in‑chief, I would like to present the colleagues who are with me here today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1407              To my right is John Weese, the General Manager for the CKNX stations, who will quarterback the question period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1408              John has been in media for 27 years, and with Blackburn since 1990.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1409              To his right is Gina Lorentz, the Program Director for 101.7 FM, The One, our Wingham‑based AC station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1410              Gina has over 20 years in radio, with a background in both news and programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1411              Before coming to us, Gina was the news director for 570 News in Kitchener.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1412              To Gina's right is Ray Baynton, the veteran of our team, who has been with our Wingham stations for the past 35 years.  For 32 of those years he has been our News Director.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1413              To Ray's right is Andrew Campbell, our Agricultural Director and Farm Reporter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1414              Andrew has been with us for three years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1415              We have operated an Agricultural Department for over 50 years to the extended Huron, Grey, Wellington and Bruce counties, probably one of the few stations in Canada to do so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1416              Finally, beside Andrew is Joan Moore, Community Marketing Representative, from whom you will hear more later.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1417              In the second row, to your left, is Nancy Burton, Accounting and Administration Supervisor, who has 25 years with Blackburn.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1418              Next to her is Mark Kassof, who conducted the research that led us to our choice of format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1419              Next to him is Rob Enders, our Director of Engineering for midwestern Ontario, who can address any technical issues that you may have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1420              Rob has 20 years in the broadcasting industry, and came to us nine years ago from Q107 in Toronto.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1421              Beside him is Jason Ploegman.  Jason's background is in the Computer Science field.  He has been with Blackburn since 2005.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1422              In the spring of 2007, Jason moved into his current role, responsible for the development of new emerging technologies for Blackburn as they relate to broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1423              In particular, he has been involved in our website connection to new and emerging artists in Windsor, and in our proposed website for The Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1424              In our folder we have provided a copy of our remarks, the seating plan of our panel, and a number of documents to which we will be referring during our presentation and during the question period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1425              It is with great hope that we appear before you this week with two applications.  Today's presentation is for a new FM radio station, to bring our brand of community‑oriented service to Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1426              Later this week you will hear our application for a new FM service in Windsor.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1427              I would like to tell you a bit about our company to give you an idea of who we are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1428              As a fifth generation Blackburn, I am proud of my family's heritage in Canadian media, beginning with the London Free Press, here in London, in 1852, and in radio in 1922.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1429              Our radio operations grew up within a well‑established newspaper publishing company, and news and local reflection is, quite simply, our culture.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1430              Blackburn's philosophy and operating realities rest upon and reflect three basic principles:  service to the community; editorial independence and program quality; and autonomous, locally‑based station management.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1431              We believe that these principles align good business practice with fundamental public policy expectations.  They also reflect the ethics traditionally practised by the Blackburn family in the operation of media.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1432              Today that commitment is upheld in our small group of stations in southwestern and midwestern Ontario, and I am personally firmly committed to continuing and building on this successful operating philosophy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1433              Consumers have many choices, but radio's most relevant function continues to matter:  to provide information to the community in which it broadcasts.  That is why Blackburn Radio has placed such a strong emphasis on local news in our application.  In a world of satellite and internet radio, local radio's advantage is that it is there every day and can be mobilized quickly in a crisis.  That is why our stations have large newsrooms, with more staff than in most radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1434              In two cases we have dedicated agricultural reporters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1435              Later, Joan Moore will talk to you about some of what we do beyond news in Wingham, and the approach we want to bring to Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1436              On the strength of this philosophy, Blackburn Radio has forged a reputation of trusted service and quality broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1437              Our proposed investment in news and information, Canadian Content Development, local programming and capital investment underscores our sincere desire to establish a Blackburn‑brand radio service for the Owen Sound market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1438              And now to present our specific sounds for the Owen Sound market, I am pleased to introduce John Weese.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1439              MR. WEESE:  Thank you, Richard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1440              Good morning, Madam Chair, Commissioners and CRTC Staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1441              CKNX Radio has been providing service to midwestern Ontario for 81 years from our facilities in Wingham, starting with our AM station, and then adding an FM station in 1977, and another in 2005.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1442              Wingham is a small town of approximately 3,200 people, and it is about dead centre of our broadcasting region.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1443              Our Wingham station's role in the lives of citizens within midwestern Ontario, who form dozens of communities that comprise our service area, is critical.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1444              CKNX Radio has a long and proud legacy of comprehensive and dedicated service.  It is in our DNA.  Today, CKNX Radio provides this kind of coverage with eight full‑time reporters, as well as seven correspondents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1445              We employ community marketing experts in addition to a full complement of traditional radio station staff.  And you will find similar levels and roles in the Blackburn stations in Leamington, Sarnia and Chatham.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1446              Owen Sound is a market that we believe is ready for a new radio service, a new local choice in musical format, news and information, and a competitor for local advertising.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1447              We have provided you maps from BBM showing the Owen Sound BBM Central, and we have shown the contours that our proposed station imposed as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1448              We estimate that the market will serve just a little over 100,000 residents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1449              The market of Belleville, Ontario has a similar population, and it is served by five commercial stations and two ownership groups.  In Owen Sound there are three stations, with a single ownership group.  If we look at the most important predicator of radio revenues, retail sales, they skew 73 percent higher than the national average in the census agglomeration of Owen Sound, and 55 percent higher in the city, according to Financial Post Markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1450              Yet, Owen Sound only has three radio formats locally:  a news/talk AM station that plays oldies, a hot AC FM, and a country FM.  No wonder there is significant out‑of‑town tuning, or out‑of‑market tuning.  According to the most recent BBM ratings, released last Monday, out‑of‑market stations receive 56.3 percent of hours tuned by persons 12‑plus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1451              We knew that the market could support a new station, and our experience in building successful community‑based radio told us that some kind of rock‑based format would be the right choice.  However, we have learned over the years to verify the actual needs of the market with research, so we commissioned Mark Kassof to conduct research on the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1452              Mark.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1453              MR. KASSOF:  Thanks, John.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1454              Good morning, Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1455              We completed 300 telephone interviews with 18 to 64‑year‑old radio listeners drawn throughout the coverage area.  First we studied listening behaviour.  Then we probed listeners' interests in nine different music formats, and whether they could identify a present station as delivering that format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1456              A key statistic is what I call "positive interest", the percent who rate a format 4 or 5 on a scale, where 1 means they would never listen to that format and 5 means they would listen to it all the time they listen to radio.  In Owen Sound we found the greatest positive interest in various forms of rock music:  classic rock, mainstream rock, and classic hits.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1457              But the crucial calculation is what I call the "percent of format void".  This is the percentage of the entire audience that both has a positive interest in a format and cannot associate any station with the format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1458              The percentage of format void analysis revealed the biggest voids to be older rock‑based music, sixties and seventies oldies at 13 percent, and classic hits at 12 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1459              This led me to recommend a broad‑based classics format, mainly seventies and eighties, but including some mid to late‑sixties gold.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1460              Here to explain how the format will be put into practice is Gina Lorentz.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1461              MS LORENTZ:  Thanks, Mark.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1462              Good morning, Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1463              We took the format conclusion that Mark provided us and started building an exciting station that we have christened "The Sound", 92.3 FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1464              We believe The Sound will be an illuminating source of tremendous entertainment, a trusted voice for news and information, and a generous and involved community citizen and partner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1465              The Sound will provide a rock‑based classic hits format, uptempo, bright, instantly recognizable, and the very best classic hits from the seventies, eighties and early nineties, with a bit of spice from the sixties and today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1466              The core of this format will be rock hits from artists like Neil Young, Tom Cochrane and Red Rider, BTO, Bryan Adams, Mellenkamp, Springsteen and Elton John.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1467              We will not play the more middle‑of‑the‑road songs from these artists, nor the hardest rock.  Therefore, the sound will reach a broad audience of men and women age 35 to 54, with slightly more men than women.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1468              We will keep the station engaging to our listeners with a range of special programming:  lunchtime features that will put members of the community from the hockey team, the Owen Sound Attack, to the mayor, to listeners with great ideas to be the music director for an hour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1469              "The Sound Survivor" will be a feature that will pit two classic hit songs against each other, with the audience voting who moves on to the next week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1470              "I Can't Believe I Heard the Whole Thing" will provide a whole side of a classic rock album.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1471              "The Weekend House Party", on Friday and Saturday nights, will provide party music from a variety of classic hit genres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1472              This kind of format usually does not play a lot of contemporary music.  However, we recognize the importance the Commission has given to supporting emerging artists, and we have developed a number of responses to play our part.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1473              We have committed to 40 percent Canadian content, both during the broadcast week and from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m.  No other applicant for this market has done so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1474              We will do this by playing compatible contemporary rock music, as well as the great Canadian artists from the past that I mentioned earlier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1475              We propose a regular feature entitled "Sound Sessions".  This one‑hour weekly program will focus on new and emerging artists, with a special effort to promote local and regional artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1476              As we do in Windsor, we will have an "Inde Artist" section on our website that will expose and promote local and regional emerging artists.  Jason Ploegman has spearheaded this initiative, and will be pleased to explain it further during the question period, if you wish.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1477              We have budgeted $3.9 million over the course of the seven‑year term of licence for programming expenses.  That is almost twice the amount of the next closest applicant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1478              This is primarily for two reasons.  We will hire more people, particularly in news, and The Sound will recruit and retain seasoned announcers, men and women who can best connect with our target audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1479              Here to tell you about our plans for news is Ray Baynton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1480              MR. BAYNTON:  Thank you, Gina, and good morning, Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1481              The Sound will offer full service, comprehensive news coverage of the Owen Sound area with four fulltime news reporters including an onsite veteran news director and also four field correspondents that includes a dedicated First Nations reporter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1482              Given the wide range of territory we serve from our Wingham stations with no real urban core but we still need to be the local station to many communities, we developed the field correspondent idea to ensure that we have knowledgeable local reporters to cover their communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1483              While we won't have the same territorial challenge in the Owen Sound area, we believe that having correspondents in Meaford, Thornbury, Saugeen Shores and in Wiarton to cover the South Bruce Peninsula will provide the information that our listeners need.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1484              For fulltime news people it means that we can provide solid news coverage throughout the week and on weekends.  It also means that our reporters can develop beats covering areas such as health and environment, arts and culture and others.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1485              Our spoken word commitment exceeds 13 hours weekly.  Of that eight hours and 18 minutes will be dedicated to news reports and that includes agricultural reporting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1486              Our connection to the community will go well beyond our news involvement.  Speaking in more detail on that here is Joan Moore.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1487              MS MOORE:  Thank you, Ray, and good morning, Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1488              I am a community marketing representative for Blackburn's Wingham base stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1489              Community marketing exists to super serve not‑for‑profit organizations and is a great way of building awareness to your organization and event.  We offer this stakeholder group modest affordable and effective marketing plans that include a premium advertising schedule, on air promotion of their events, live and recorded interviews and a web‑based platform that can be accessed by the public as well as our announcers.  In addition, we can provide MCs and personalities that will perform live reports from your event.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1490              I was hired in 2004 as the first dedicated marketing representative for this new initiative in the Wingham's stations.  We now dedicate two community marketing representatives who have been trained to specifically specialize in serving the needs of our not‑for‑profit groups.  This has proven to be very effective for non‑for‑profit organizations of all dimensions and purpose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1491              Our clients include county health units, the United Way and their umbrella agencies, the Canadian Cancer Society, agricultural affairs, fundraising concerts and a range of other like organizations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1492              We measure our success on the success of the event.  A few examples would be the Canadian Cancer Society's annual Relay for Life.  Not only do we help promote and sponsor the relays in several communities in our area, we also volunteer our hours and provide a team in five of the overnight events.  In 2007 we helped raise well over half a million dollars for cancer research.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1493              We also were instrumental in the phenomenal success of the Town of Minto Canadian Redneck Games, which is an annual festival that began in 2006.  We assisted with their marketing plan, provided MCs and personalities.  They were rated the number one festival in Ontario for July 2006 by CBC Radio.  In addition, they won two festival and events Ontario Achievement Awards for the best new festival and the best community involvement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1494              Probably our largest success in this area is our annual Healthcare Heroes Radiothon for the area's hospitals.  The folks in the audience in the black t‑shirts are here to show their support for us.  They represent the 14 hospitals in our area that have benefited from the millions of dollars we have helped raise for them.  This year we raised $900,000 in a single day, bringing us to a total of $3.5 million in five years, a record we believe is unmatched by any other Canadian radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1495              The Sound will bring the same attention to the community in Owen Sound, including community marketing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1496              We will also reach out to the First Nations communities and extended market at Cape Croker and Saugeen.  We will do this in a number of ways both on air and off the microphone.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1497              We will hire a dedicated correspondent to report on the events in the aboriginal community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1498              A Sunday evening program "Sound Circles" will focus on the music and achievements of the aboriginal community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1499              We will provide support to the Cape Croker Annual Traditional Pow Wow with $5,000 for music and dance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1500              And we will hire an aboriginal broadcasting student as a station intern.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1501              Now to speak to Canadian content development initiatives, and to sum up, here is John Weese.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1502              MR. WEESE:  Thanks, Joan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1503              In addition to our annual contributions to FACTOR which will amount to a little over $100,000, $102,000 over the licence term, we propose the four local initiatives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1504              Stars of the Sound will fund summer concerts by local and regional artists in the downtown area of Owen Sound at venues at a cost of $17,400 each year.  We will record the concerts and make them available to the artists to act as promotional tools as well as providing space on our website for them to promote their activities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1505              The Georgian Bay Folk Society will receive $20,000 annually for a new stage and that will feature local artists, and for a series of musician workshops.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1506              The Kiwanis will receive $12,000 annually for scholarship awards tied to the Kiwanis Festival and to host notable Canadian artists.  And as Joan has already noted, our annual commitment to the Cape Croker Pow Wow and the funding of artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1507              Blackburn and CKNX Radio have a proud history of service to a wide range of communities in mid‑western Ontario.  We have always believed that the key to our business success is community service and our attention to strong news departments, community development and to research has meant that we have done well by doing good.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1508              We believe that we have provided you with an application that best meets the evaluation criteria.  Owen Sound can easily absorb a new rock‑based classic hits station.  We will provide viable competition to the only local broadcaster which has three stations in Owen Sound and a number of regional stations.  At the same time, The Sound will take most of its audience out of the out‑of‑market stations, particularly our Wingham‑based rock station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1509              Blackburn is the only applicant in this market who conducted format research that tested a wide variety of formats in order to seek out the largest unfulfilled void.  The Sound will serve a large group of men and women, age 35 to 54, who currently tune elsewhere for their favourite music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1510              We propose the strongest commitments to our local reflection of any applicant for Owen Sound.  Our projected expenditures on programming are almost double the next nearest applicant at $3.9 million over seven years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1511              We propose a news department of four fulltime staff, supplemented by four regional correspondents and will broadcast over eight hours of news each week and 13 hours of spoken word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1512              We will program 40 percent of Canadian content during the broadcast week and between 6:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m.   This will be further supported by a number of special programs focusing on local and regional artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1513              We will donate almost a half a million dollars over the term of the licence to Canadian content development.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1514              We have a good team of dedicated professionals with experience in providing quality radio and if you grant this licence to Blackburn you will not be disappointed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1515              We would like to leave you with this sample of The Sound.

‑‑‑ Musical interlude / Intermède musical

LISTNUM 1 \l 1516              MR. WEESE:  Thank you.  And thank you for your attention this morning.  We would welcome your questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1517              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Weese and Mr. Costley White, and your colleagues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1518              I will ask Commissioner del Val to begin the questioning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1519              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you, panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1520              As I read your application I think one of the key elements of your particular application is the repatriation from your own station, The Bull.  So I would just like to get a little bit of background information about that before we go into the specifics of the application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1521              Now, you heard this morning from The Pearl that the latest figures shows a 24 percent, 12‑plus tuning.  I am not sure if I got that correct.  Can you comment on that, please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1522              MR. WEESE:  Yes, I think where they may have gotten their information as they were preparing prior to the most recent release ‑‑ the most recent release of BBM which all audience 12‑plus indicates that The Bull, the Wingham rock‑based station, took a share of 13.5 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1523              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay, 13.5 from the Owen Sound market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1524              MR. WEESE:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1525              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Now, what about ‑‑ but currently The Bull does derive some revenue from the Owen Sound market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1526              MR. WEESE:  Most certainly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1527              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  And could you tell us what percentage of your revenues would be from the Owen Sound market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1528              MR. WEESE:  I think the Board should look at ‑‑ of our Wingham‑based radio stations it would represent ‑‑ what we take out of Owen Sound would represent around 10 percent of the total revenues of our Wingham‑based radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1529              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1530              So Mr. Kassof, I was quite interested in your research and, you know, basically I want to explore a bit more about the basis of the optimism that the repatriation will be from Bull rather than from Bayshore's three stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1531              So I was looking at your study and on the applicant's supplementary brief, page 21, and you are talking about the core or the P1 listeners to classic hits format listening to less radio than average.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1532              MR. KASSOF:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1533              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes, and then from your deficiency response and all, I gather that ‑‑ is it from a lack of station association that there ‑‑ it simply isn't around, or is there something about the demographics of the group that you are targeting that that group listens to radio less?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1534              MR. KASSOF:  Well, I think if we look at what they like, which is essentially older music, seventies, eighties, a touch of sixties, there is really no station available on the market, even The Bull that really delivers that mix of music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1535              You know, I strongly suspect based on the research that they think The Bull would be a little bit too hard rocking for them.  I think that they would think that The Bull plays too much current, new cutting‑edge rock for them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1536              So really if they don't like country where are they going to go?  So there is really no station that's really serving them.  So hopefully we would see an increase in their time spent listening.  But right now if there is no station that really hits your needs you are going to spend less time with radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1537              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  So you are comfortable concluding that, given all of the factors, that is the key reason for them listening to radio less, that there is no station that really serves specifically their needs?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1538              MR. KASSOF:  Yes, because if we look at just their demographic group, strictly as a demographic no matter what they are interested in, they are not listening to radio less than average.  But these particular people who want this kind of radio station are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1539              So yes, I think it's a fair assumption that they are really not getting what they want.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1540              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Now, and also you heard from The Pearl today in their opening statements and their questions with Madam Chair on what they ‑‑ their plans on being very local in order to cater to the Owen Sound market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1541              Now, what can you do that is more local than local ownership?  Like how would you set yourself apart from, say, The Pearl's?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1542              MR. WEESE:  Yes, I would like to take that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1543              There is a couple of ways when we talk about programming and specifically we can talk about our news content.  I would like to ask news director Ray Baynton who could perhaps talk a little bit about the local nature of our intended news coverage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1544              Ray?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1545              MR. BAYNTON:  Thank you, John.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1546              The amount of local news that we are talking about is over eight hours and I think that you will find that significantly larger than what the competitors are offering.  That's going to be largely focused on the area and that's because we are going to have four fulltime people there.  We are going to have correspondents who are going to be out and covering the region, and we are going to have the airtime to be as comprehensive and detailed as we need to be for the market.  And that's above and beyond additional surveillance material that will be outside of that as well as some of the community service initiatives that we are doing as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1547              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  So do you think you could be more local than a local owner?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1548              MR. BAYNTON:  I think you have to determine what you mean by a local owner because to me it's not a matter of ‑‑ if you will excuse this, Richard ‑‑ it's not a matter of who is wearing the suit in the front office.  It's a matter of who is doing what on the air, and the people on the air will be local.  They will be people who live in the market.  They are going to be the people who play in the market and do everything else in the market.  They know the market.  So what they put on the air is what's going to be local.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1549              And all of our stations, all of our Blackburn operations are locally managed.  So that's where the local is going to come from.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1550              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1551              Now, when I was looking at the stats for this market and I can see that Bayshore and Blackburn have been competing neck and neck for years and very successfully.  And right now you are number two.  So why is that not enough for you?  Why do you actually want to be in the Owen Sound market and serving the market from an Owen Sound station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1552              MR. WEESE:  I would like to, in a second, have Mark Kassof ‑‑ might talk about ‑‑ I will ask him to speak about some people in that population that are not being served presently.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1553              We believe that we can bring an exciting new format that's not there now and that we can serve listeners and make the listening experience fuller for the market of Owen Sound.  And our community‑based initiatives we believe will enrich the quality of life of people in Owen Sound, and we believe we are quite capable of doing that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1554              And to talk about the other served (1112‑5:40) needs I would like to ask Mark Kassof to maybe talk a little more on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1555              MR. KASSOF:  Sure.  I mean we looked at this percent of format void which is essentially listeners who want something and aren't getting it, and the percent of format void for classic hits was 12 percent; for sixties, seventies, oldies was 13 percent.  Those were the two highest of the nine formats we tested.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1556              So that's a significant number of listeners in this market that aren't getting what they want.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1557              MR. WEESE:  Also, to add to that, Gina Lorentz has some information too that might be helpful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1558              MS LORENTZ:  When we looked at BBM out of market tuning in the target demo that we are proposing, 35 to 54, 30 percent of women are listening to stations outside of the Owen Sound market and over 60 percent of men are tuning out of market.  So that's why we are proposing a broad‑based classic hits format that appeals to both men and women.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1559              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  On your revenue projections they are quite optimistic.  What is the basis of your optimism?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1560              MR. WEESE:  Well, basically we took a look at ‑‑ first of all, we think we are pretty good operators.  However, studying the market we discovered in our research from Financial Post markets, in addition to looking at Stats Canada information on retail sales for some of the areas that weren't included in the FP markets that retail sales are very, very healthy in that particular region and retail sales themselves are higher per capita in the city and in the immediate region than they are in other parts of the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1561              Our calculations indicate to us that there is an un‑mined revenue source, radio revenue source that exceeds $900,000 in the market.  We believe that it would be foolish for us to believe that we are going to take all of that within the first one, two years of that.  However, we do show rapid growth throughout the period of seven years and as the markets grow we certainly intend to grow as well, along with our inventory.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1562              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  That just reminded me that in your supplementary brief you did ‑‑ oh, here ‑‑ that you are anticipating generating 80 percent of your total year to revenues from sources other than existing local stations.  So where would the ‑‑ where do you see those sources?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1563              MR. WEESE:  Well, certainly from the out‑of‑market radio stations and, unfortunately for us, but we would sort of chew off our arm a bit as far as our revenues from The Bull radio station because we would certainly take market share from them and revenue does follow that.  So there are ‑‑ a good healthy part ‑‑ I believe we have listed 25 percent ‑‑ will come from out‑of‑market stations and that will be predominantly us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1564              We also listed new business as well.  I believe we have that to the tune of 10 percent.  And that new business is going to come we think from three different areas up in our area with the Bruce nuclear plant and Ontario Power Generation and wind farming is bringing on a new stream of advertising because they want to be good corporate citizens and partner up in that area.  We believe that's a good ‑‑ great revenue source.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1565              Community marketing that Joan talked about earlier provides new revenue opportunities as well and also I think we have listed in there as expanding business.  With a new radio station player you can understand that advertisers will be using the traditional stations they have always used but they want to reach the entire market, recognizing there is a new player with a new audience.  And so they would want to reach the entire market.  So they will expand their budgets as well, and that will represent a good percentage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1566              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  So have you actually pursued any of these new sources that you have referred to, to find out their level of commitment?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1567              MR. WEESE:  Our experience today, and with our Wingham‑based stations those groups are certainly part of our market.  And we are in constant negotiations talking with the energy groups to expand their budgets.  We do get a bit of money from them but it is growing as those companies are growing along the coast as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1568              And community marketing does represent some modest dollars but good dollars for us as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1569              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  And I take it ‑‑ is there a significant proportion of these new businesses in Owen Sound that are currently already advertising with you in your other markets?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1570              MR. WEESE:  There will be some duplication of advertisers and we would like to think that we would be able to retain their ad dollars to some degree.  But we do realize that the day that we put out our shingle for the new station that they are going to be converting a lot of those dollars over to the new station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1571              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1572              Now, I think your projection also ‑‑ now, Bayshore's CIXK currently has an 11 percent share.  Now, what is your estimate of the tuning that you will take away from Bayshore, that station, and the other two of Bayshore's stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1573              MR. WEESE:  Yes, in total of their three stations they have in the market we believe that we are only going to take five point shares from them, which is around 20 percent or so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1574              The biggest hit that we are going to take is from the out‑of‑market rock station from Wingham and that's where we are going to get the majority of our shares.  So we would really have minimal impact on the three stations that Bayshore has in that market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1575              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes, and I believe that Mr. Kassof has sort of explained in your research and why ‑‑ how you calculated the format you chose would have the smallest impact on the incumbents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1576              MR. WEESE:  Yes, and we would be most interested in sharing that.  Would you like to hear from Mr. Kassof on that point?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1577              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes, please.  Yes, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1578              MR. WEESE:  Mark?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1579              MR. KASSOF:  In terms of the ratings projections and how we do that?  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1580              Well, you know one of the crucial questions in one of these research projects is which station do you listen to most, which corresponds most closely with audience shares as a service such as BBM would reflect?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1581              So we ask that.  We ask that right now, which station are you listening to most?  And then, in terms of doing a projection, the key is to figure out which station are they going to listen to most after this new station launches.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1582              So what we do is we look at people, in this case, who had a positive interest in the kind of music this station will play, who weren't passionate about any of the other kinds of formats that we tested.  So in other words, if they liked classic hits, but they were big country fans, we are not calling that person a potential P1 listener.  That person is not going to say that they listen to this station most even though they may sample it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1583              So once we have identified respondents who will be new P1 listeners for this new station, we move them from whatever station they were at to the new station and then recalculate share.  And, by doing, that we projected a 16 per cent share for the new station. And, again, most of that would be definitely be coming from The Bull.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1584              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1585              And going to your formats, what do you see would be the key differences between your format and the formats of the three incumbent stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1586              MR. WEESE:  Okay, very good.  Quite a bit of difference, actually.  And I would like to ask Gina Lorentz if she wouldn't mind talking about some of the differences in the formats.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1587              MS LORENTZ:  Thank you.  The three existing formats owned by Bayshore right now in Owen Sound's central market, there is an FM country station which is night and day compared to the classic hits format that we are proposing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1588              FM Hot AC station, it is not a rock‑based format, its focus is based on current music and the best hits of the 1990s and this decade.  Only similarity, there is a noon‑hour lunch program on Mix 106 which is a Hot AC that does a retro show, so there is some 1980s music during that hour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1589              The AM station CFOS, it is primarily a news information sports station with some oldies.  There are various talk shows through the week and on the weekends, some sports programming.  And the music that is played is predominantly 1950s, 1960s and early 1970s and has a lighter touch than the classic hits rock‑based format that we are proposing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1590              Our classic hits would focus on 1970s, 1980s, some early 1990s harder edge.  Additionally, our application would adhere to the non‑hit regulation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1591              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  What about the difference between your format and those proposed by the other applicants?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1592              MR. WEESE:  Gina.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1593              MS LORENTZ:  Thank you, I can pick‑up on that as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1594              As has been discussed, there is currently no rock‑based format in Owen Sound.  Our Blackburn station, The Bull, does get a decent share and there are two proposals before you for a mainstream classic rock hybrid application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1595              There are some commonalities between a classic hits and rock station.  Shared artists could include; Aerosmith, Rolling Stones, Journey, Pink Floyd, Foreigner.  There are also artists you would not hear on a rock format that would appear on a classic hits format; Phil Collins, Chicago, Hall & Oates, Pat Benetar, Rod Stewart and early Elton John.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1596              Also, songs on The Bull are on the other competing applicants' proposing rock formats that you would not hear on a classic hits station and that would include; Black Sabbath, Ozzy Osborne, Jimi Hendrix and no new rock like Foo Fighters, Velvet Revolver or White Stripes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1597              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  And I think that you did touch on ‑‑ I am sorry, you had something to add?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1598              MR. WEESE:  Oh, no.  The only thing I was going to add as well too is, in addition to the musical formats that we would play, that our news content too is considerably higher and that would set us apart from the other applicants as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1599              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Just going back.  I believe you had given a brief explanation of the difference between The Bull and the format of the new station.  And The Bull is a little bit harder rock?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1600              MS LORENTZ:  Yes, its play list would include the new artists that I mentioned; Foo Fighters, Lincoln Park.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1601              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Now, what is it that Blackburn plans to do differently or better with this Owen Sound station than it does already with The Bull and in order to attract the Owen Sound audience?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1602              MR. WEESE:  Right.  Well, for one thing, the format would be more broad‑based in nature and we would be able to satisfy the listening habits of more women than we would be able to accomplish with The Bull as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1603              We also believe that this format and part of the points that we would take from The Bull is that we would be able to better satisfy some of the male listeners as well in the overall audience by playing music this is more germane to their appetite as well as giving them a lot more local news and information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1604              The Bull has cursory news coverage of Owen Sound and areas, it pertains to our area. This station here would dedicate 75 per cent of the focus on news and events happening within Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1605              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1606              I have a few questions on your CCD contribution.  You have heard Madam Chair's, this morning, question Bayshore referring to the 2006‑158 public notice and paragraph 116 talking about the basic annual CCD contribution.  Do you understand that?  I can summarize that for you if you need.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1607              MR. WEESE:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1608              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  So stations with total revenues in a previous broadcast year of less than $625,000 will make a fixed contribution of $500.  And then stations having revenues between $625,000 and $1,250,000 will make a fixed contribution of $1,000.  And stations with total revenues exceeding $1,250,000 in a previous year will contribute $1,000 plus 0.5 per cent of the portion of the previous year's total revenues that exceed $1,250,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1609              MR. WEESE:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1610              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  You understand and accept that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1611              MR. WEESE:  Yes, we do, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1612              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1613              MR. WEESE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1614              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Now, on page 11 of your supplementary brief, in the second complete paragraph and the last sentence, you were referring to a transitionary condition of licence when you were talking about the 60 per cent of basic amount each year to FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1615              I am just trying to pull that up on my screen.  Do you see that?  On page 11 of your ‑‑ it starts with, "Blackburn proposes a substantial contribution.."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1616              MR. WEESE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1617              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1618              MR. WEESE:  Yes, I do see that, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1619              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  And the last two sentences:

"..60 per cent of the basic amount each year will be contributed to FACTOR.  We would accept a transitionary condition of licence." (As Read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 1620              I don't really understand what you mean by transitionary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1621              MR. WEESE:  Well, to be perfectly honest, I don't have that answer for you right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1622              Richard, do you have anything to add to that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1623              MR. COSTLEY WHITE:  I think it just reflects the fact that the regulations are in sort of a transitionary mode from the previous set of regs to the current set.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1624              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you for the clarification.  But the bottom line is that you will accept that as a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1625              MR. COSTLEY WHITE:  Yes, we will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1626              MR. WEESE:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1627              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Now, on one of your CCD initiatives on the Cape Croker Traditional Pow Wow ‑‑ now I think you are probably aware that, with the commercial radio policy that we have just referred to, in 2006, the focus is for the support of development of Canadian musical and spoken‑word talent.  And so initiatives such as visual arts and dance they don't qualify anymore.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1628              So I just want to find out more about this Cape Croker Traditional Pow Wow.  What is it about, how do you think it does qualify and why don't we start there?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1629              MR. WEESE:  Okay, sure.  We had a couple of meetings with some people in Cape Croker to try to get their perspective of what their needs are when it comes to the Pow Wow.  With that event, they import a lot of people from all over Canada to come to that event and it is becoming increasingly difficult for people to come because of associated costs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1630              We believe that we can stay within the regulations on that by making sure that that money that we forward goes directly to pay the talent that will be performing and, specifically, those who will be singing as part of their performance.  So it is more than dance and visual arts and so on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1631              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  What proportion of that festival is dance and what is music?  Is it easy to separate?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1632              MR. WEESE:  I have to be honest with you, I have never attended a pow wow.  I don't know.  My understanding of it is that the have a celebration of the culture, there is a lot of dance to it, but there is also some singing that is part of that event.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1633              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  And would your play be to broadcast the singing and the spoken word portion or..?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1634              MR. WEESE:  That is certainly a wonderful idea and one that we would most certainly entertain.  They do have their own radio station in Cape Croker and we would want to make sure that we don't interfere with whatever their programming plans are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1635              And just on that note with the Cape Croker radio station, we have toured their facility and we have talked to their coordinator and we believe ‑‑ we didn't put it in the application, because it doesn't fall under CCD ‑‑ but just as a side note, we are very eager to help them with their very humble broadcasting centre that they have and to lend expertise as well as equipment to what they are doing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1636              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you. In the even that that portion of the initiative does not qualify as eligible CCD, what would be your proposal for that portion of the contribution?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1637              MR. WEESE:  What we would do if that does not qualify?  We would make sure that the Cape Croker Pow Wow people do receive the money anyway and that amount of money would be added in addition and would go to FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1638              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay, great, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1639              I don't have any questions on specifics of your programming.  You have quite a detailed program on your spoken word and all.  Now, there are no changes that you anticipate from the time you filed the application and today on your spoken word and your local programming plans, are there?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1640              MR. WEESE:  No, there is no changes at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1641              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  I have now one last question for Mr. Enders.  I took a look at the intervention from Bayshore and part of the intervention has to do with the technical aspects of Blackburn's application.  And mainly, the portion, what you have applied for, will not be sufficient to cover the areas that you want to cover and, therefore, we would be looking immediately at another application for us for changes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1642              I was interested in Mr. Enders' response as to give us some assurance that the frequencies and the technical parameters that the applicant has put forward is sufficient to support their application as it stands.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1643              MR. ENDERS:  Sure, I can answer that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1644              When we started the preparation for this application our consultants were asked to find the best channel for us to use, and Channel 222, 92.3 was the one chosen.  We have, in our application, maximized that channel to its full capacity and that is what our business plan is built upon.  So there is no intention to come back and ask for repeaters or other methods to expand the coverage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1645              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Are there any other alternate frequencies that would be feasible for you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1646              MR. ENDERS:  Yes, they identified a second Channel 272, which is 102.3 MHz and it has a similar coverage, although it has more interference issues to deal with, so this is the primary channel to choose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1647              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you. I am sure Madam Chair will be asking you to give a last pitch.  I will postpone the next question, but basically I would like you to address it at some point, why you, why you are the best for repatriation and, out of all these fabulous applicants, why you?  So should we postpone that to..?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1648              MR. WEESE:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1649              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1650              Those are my questions, thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1651              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Menzies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1652              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1653              I just have some quick questions and then another one that is maybe a bit more complicated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1654              In your newsroom the presentation said you have four people, but then it referred to one experienced news director, plus four.  Is the news director included in those four?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1655              MR. BAYNTON:  The news director is included in those four, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1656              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  So there is a director and three reporters, one of whom is specializing on Aboriginal affairs?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1657              MR. BAYNTON:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1658              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  No?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1659              MR. BAYNTON:  No, the Aboriginal reporter is one of our additional four correspondents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1660              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1661              MR. BAYNTON:  Okay?  The four full‑time, including the news director, are the people who are actually working in the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1662              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  Are they going to cover shifts right through the week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1663              MR. BAYNTON:  Yes, through the week, through the weekend and ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1664              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  All seven days?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1665              MR. BAYNTON:  ‑‑ they will also be doing reporting as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1666              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Is it a 24‑hour cycle or..?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1667              MR. BAYNTON:  A 6A until 6P.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1668              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  6A until 6P?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1669              MR. BAYNTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1670              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay, thanks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1671              MR. BAYNTON:  I should, possibly, just mention that there will be the opportunity for us to go live during the off hours as well.  We have got two things planned for that.  One of them is high school intern who would be in the station in the evenings who would be able to handle the incoming calls and deal with anything that is going on and then call in news staff, as required.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1672              The other is what we do in the Wingham stations, and that is we have an on‑call editor who has a pager, actually it is a Blackberry now, and he can access all the wire services and any phone calls that come into the newsroom and so on.  So he can respond and get back in the news room and get back on the air live if anything happens after hours as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1673              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  In terms of your research, a survey of 300 people, what is the margin of error on a survey of 300 people?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1674              MR. BAYNTON:  Mark Kassof.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1675              MR. KASSOF:  Just a second here, I have got the calculation standing by.  The worst case margin of error on a sample of 300 for the total sample would be 5.66 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1676              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  And what would it be on the breakouts?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1677              MR. KASSOF:  Higher.  I mean, it would depend on ‑‑ each breakout has its own cell size, so you would have to figure out each one individually.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1678              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  So plus or minus 9 if I break it out into gender, for instance?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1679              MR. KASSOF:  7.7.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1680              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  7.7, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1681              If this market were to be opened up, how many licences do you think it could handle?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1682              MR. WEESE:  One comfortably, for sure, and one that would be very healthy and one that would be viable and one that would be able to live to a full service commitment.  I would be concerned that if two were licensed that it would have impact on the existing broadcaster as well as the other new entity into the marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1683              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  So one?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1684              MR. MR WEESE:  I am thinking one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1685              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  I am curious to know about your strategy regarding The Bull.  What impact would this, yours or in that sense I guess others, but yours particularly, as you own it, have on The Bull?  It appears like you are prepared to partially cannibalize your audience at The Bull, I guess the idea being if somebody is going to eat it, it might as well be you.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1686              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  But what kind of an impact would that have on your operation in Wingham?  Because usually if market share falls revenue might fall, which means cost containment and I think we all know what that means.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1687              MR. MR WEESE:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1688              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  So can you just expand on your strategy regarding that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1689              MR. MR WEESE:  I would be happy to.  And you are absolutely right, we do cannibalize ourselves a bit on that.  In fact, we have listed in our brief as to what we believe will be where our revenues will come, from out‑of‑market broadcasters at 25 per cent.  So that is $234,000 and we believe a chunk of that is going to come right off The Bull.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1690              However, we understand two things, and that is that The Bull was not intended to be a radio station for Owen Sound.  It was primarily intended to be a station for mid‑western Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1691              We soon discovered after testing and then putting it on the air that we did have a following in Owen Sound and that there was an appetite up there for people to participate with a radio station.  And, being good businesspeople, we certainly, I don't know if explored is a good word, but we certainly satisfied the advertising demand up in that area and we are very happy with that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1692              But we do understand that our core market is mid‑western Ontario.  And therefore, when we asked for power increases for South Huron we had that intent of being able to best satisfy our home market before we go gallivanting into other markets.  And so we believe that is where our long‑term strength is going to be in our home market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1693              And, as you can see with the BBM, The Bull started off very strong year one, little loss year two, year three we are down to a 13.5 market share.  And we would like to think and the people on our Bull team would like to think that they can bolster that number or hold onto that number.  I think history is starting to prove that being out of market now does have a cost and that it is a depreciating asset as time goes on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1694              So we want to put a station into that market that is going to stand and grow in market share and not decline.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1695              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Can you just maybe explain for me too the difference between your format decision and the earlier application which went straight after a rock format in terms ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1696              MR. MR WEESE:  Sure, I would be happy to do that.  In fact, I am fortunate to have a couple of people with me here today who could probably best answer that.  I can either start with Mark or Gina.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1697              Mark, are you prepared?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1698              MR. KASSOF:  Well, I hope so.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1699              MR. KASSOF:  Basically, you know, what I looked at and shared with the radio station was what is the biggest unserved need in the market?  And the biggest unserved need in the market was the format that we are discussing.  You know, when we get down to mainstream rock it is considerably less.  The format for mainstream rock is 7 per cent, so it is considerably less.  So the biggest need in the market seemed to be a good way to go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1700              Another thing I would like to share is that, you know, I think conventional wisdom is that the way to take share, to repatriate, is to put something on exactly the same as what they are taking away from.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1701              My experience is that is not always a very good strategy.  And, in fact, sometimes you can repatriate more by giving to people something that is a little bit different, giving them something that they don't have before. So that is where that all came from basically.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1702              And again, we are talking about a station that I projected at 16 share, 12‑64 with 10 points coming from The Bull.  And again, that is based on that model I shared with you earlier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1703              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Without ‑‑ I am sorry, go ahead.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1704              MS LORENTZ:  I was just going to add, additionally, the format that we are proposing appeals to a slightly older demo, it is an aging demo in Owen Sound currently.  And, as Ray and others have spoken, that demographic of 35‑54 with the high percentage of out‑of‑market tuning, it is very community and family focused and a lot of our programming that will be going into this new station will reflect the need for that audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1705              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  And the last question on this is you identified an unmined revenue resource of about $900,000 out there.  I am not asking you to give away phone numbers or anything, but can you tell me, roughly, what sort of segments those are in?  Are they automotive, are they retail?  Give me some idea where those $900,000 loonies can be found.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1706              MR. WEESE:  Well, it is pretty broad‑based.  I think I have with me somewhere ‑‑ EPI Markets breaks it down by segment in a particular market and so there would be auto and there would be other areas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1707              If you would just bear with me just one second, I will go through a briefcase and try to find this document.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 1708              MR. WEESE:  And I had better come up with this document.  We can play the sample of the sound again while I am going through this if you want.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires