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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE
THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT
LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT / SUJET:
VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /
PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Best Western Inn Best Western Inn
2402 Highway 97 North 2402, autoroute 97 Nord
Kelowna, B.C. Kelowna (C.-B.)
October 31, 2007 Le 31 octobre 2007
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio‑television and
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
Transcript / Transcription
VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /
PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Rita Cugini Chairperson / Présidente
Ronald Williams Commissioner / Conseiller
Michel Morin Commissioner / Conseiller
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTES:
Cindy Ventura Secretary / Secrétaire
Véronique Lehoux Legal Counsel /
Francine Laurier-Guy Hearing Manager /
Gérante de l'audience
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Best Western Inn Best Western Inn
2402 Highway 97 North 2402, autoroute 97 Nord
Kelowna, B.C. Kelowna (C.-B.)
October 31, 2007 Le 31 octobre 2007
- iv -
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
PAGE / PARA
PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:
Northern Native Broadcasting 284 / 1532
Radio CJVR Ltd. 331 / 1767
In-House Communications Inc. 386 / 2040
Deep Waters Media Inc. 421 / 2222
Corus Radio Company 477 / 2494
No interventions / Aucune intervention
INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:
The Cruzeros and Cruzeroo Music Corporation 505 / 2632
Gerry Fraser 519 / 2699
Kelowna, B.C. / Kelowna (C.‑B.)
‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Wednesday, October 31, 2007
at 0830 / L'audience reprend mercredi 31
octobre 2007 à 0830
LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 15281528 THE SECRETARY: Hello and welcome.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11529 We will now proceed with item 7, which is an application for Northern Native Broadcasting (Terrace) B.C. for a licence to operate an English‑ and Native‑languages FM type B Native radio programming undertaking in Kelowna, British Columbia.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11530 The new station would operate on frequency 96.3, channel 242B, with an average effective radiated power of 7,100 watts, maximum effective radiated power of 20,000 watts, antenna height of minus 89 metres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11531 Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Ron Bartlett. Please introduce your colleagues and you will have 20 minutes for your presentation.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 11532 MR. BARTLETT: Thank you, Madam Chair and Commissioners. I would like to introduce Lynne Terbasket, who has had 20 years service with our Northern Native Network, and also William Wesley with the same service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11533 My name is Ron Bartlett. I have been in broadcasting off and on over the last 30 years. My First Nations background comes from Kittsumkalum Village. I am a Tsimpshian, as well as Lynne is from the Okanagan. She is a band member of the Similkameen band and William Wesley is a band member of the Laxkw'alaams band.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11534 We are proposing to model our continuation of our provincial network similar to our northern network, and we would just like to review with you how we currently serve the First Nations communities of northern B.C. and would like to mirror that for our southern service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11535 We at Northern Native Broadcasting are dedicated towards servicing the First Nations communities in our areas, in the areas of language, culture, communication and entertain. Northern Native Broadcasting or CFNR has become the voice of aboriginal peoples in northern B.C. We are a network that is being heard in over 45 communities, north to the Yukon border, west including all the coastal villages from Bella Bella to the Queen Charlotte Islands and the Alaska border, Kincolith community. We are serving as far south as Williams Lake, Quesnell and the east as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11536 We have become an important part of the daily lives of the listening area, including the remote communities, as well as the urban centres that we serve.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11537 We have a website, myCFNR.com, which our station has been streamed. We are being heard world wide. We were one of the first stations in Canada to have a streaming audio on our website. We serve eight different tribal groups in our listening area. Each tribal group has a completely different language and custom. This is reflective of the large and diverse number of different languages and cultures throughout B.C. This prompted us to taking a different approach towards implementing language and culture components. We have developed some community radio models.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11538 Another approach we have been successful at is promoting our major community events and be directly involved with these events as they take place. A lot of them take place in small villages far away from the urban centres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11539 The following is a more detailed description of examples of our involvement in the communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11540 Community radio. We are currently developing a community radio program made available to most First Nations communities in our listening area that wish to undertake such a program. This will enable a community to air a one‑hour program focused on their language and culture and community events. To date we have provided hands‑on training and assistance to the communities of Kitimaat (Haisla) and New Aiyansh, a Nisga'a community. Each community will be able to correct to CFNR's broadcast and begin their own one‑hour programming which covers health and wellness, local news and views, a focus on Elders, language, youth and music. This initiative is in its early stages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11541 First Nations direct community involvement. We have been invited to co‑sponsor and broadcast community and cultural events as well as sports events. We travel to a fair number of these communities near and far to become involved in their events by radio promotion and assisting in planning, as well as offering our announcers as MCs. We also broadcast live from their communities, showcasing their culture and people. This approach has been a win/win for both communities and CFNR.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11542 Examples of some of the events. The Hobiyee. It is our First Nations New Year in the north. We have had up to 4500 First Nations people from the eight different tribal groups come together for a celebration similar to the Chinese New Year, we have our Native First Nations New Year in February.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11543 Last year we celebrated in New Aiyansh. We had a remote broadcast from that village. Such an event has proven to be an economic boost to their community. CFNR normally pre‑promotes the events for up to three weeks prior to broadcasting and showcasing the event to our network. A number of our staff members spent the entire three days in the community assisting with broadcasting, as well as all aspects of organization of the event.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11544 I pre‑planned the event with the organizers a good six months ahead of time. If you do the math, 4500 people spend an average of about $100 a day. They left about $150,000 in that small village in those three days.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11545 CFNR has worked directly with other communities broadcasting live and promoting their cultural events. Example, Kitimaat village, a Haisla community, their Music and Friends Festival. We brought over 40,000 people. Skidegate on Haida Gwaii, they call us to come over and broadcast their Skidegate Days. We broadcast this last year for many other communities, including New Aiyansh, Terrace, Prince Rupert for National Aboriginal Days, Nisga'a Cultural Days, Lax Galts ap, Career and Employment Fair. We assisted in planning and bringing together many stakeholders from industry and employers and also had 1500 people coming looking for careers and jobs, and we matched them together along with learning institutions to stream what they needed for education.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11546 We did this in a small village of 500 people 90 miles outside of the urban centre.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11547 We have been invited to Moricetown, Gitanmaxx, Kitsum Kalum. We promoted their Friends of the Wild Salmon. Kitselas and Dease Lake up near the Yukon border, as well, we were doing remote broadcasting from there. We have been in Massett, Iskut, Lax Kawlaams, Metlakatla. Incidentally, we have 45 communities and we have been in most of them. My job is to be in at least one or two every week, communicating with them and bringing their needs out.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11548 Over the past year, we have visited these communities to participate directly with their events and speaking directly with the people at the community level, making sure we are engaging them and bringing out their issues and successes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11549 The All Native Basketball Tournament. We have been the official broadcast sponsor of the All Native Basketball Tournament for approximately 20 years. This tournament has been in existence for nearly 50 years and currently involves approximately 50 teams broken into four divisions. Thousands of fans from all over B.C. attend this annual event which lasts for seven days. There is 5,000 of our people that come to Prince Rupert and they will spend up to $2.5 million during the tournament.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11550 This event has proven to be an effective model for communities and friends to connect and interact, as well as continuing new friendships. Another aspect of this gathering is also the sharing of traditional food and selling of First Nations arts and crafts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11551 Our working relationship has proven to be a win‑win with our broadcasting live play‑by‑play of the games throughout the entire week. The tournament began during an era when the potlatch ceremony and gathering of nations was outlawed. It was illegal for us to gather. This tournament has proven to be an effective alternative to the traditional method.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11552 William Wesley, who was with me, who is of Tsimshian ancestry, received an award from the All Native Basketball Tournament Committee for 20 years of service in broadcasting and hosting the play‑by‑play commentary of the All Native Basketball games.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11553 Emergency preparedness. The First Nations Emergency Services recently communicated with CFNR. They visited our office and asked us to assist in working with the remote villages within our network to enable us to be the communication link for emergency messages. Taking our communication responsibility seriously and further, to date we have worked directly with Skidegate, Kitimaat Village and New Aiyansh. They are able to cut into our signal and broadcast emergency messages to their community members. For the rest of the communities, we receive their messages from them and broadcast them over our network. The community members are instructed to listen to CFNR for direction during an emergency. The flooding that took place in our listening area during the past summer proved to be a success in our communication. We had staff broadcast live 24 hours a day updates and safety notices to the communities that we serve. We were recognized locally for our effort.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11554 In the event of tsunamis or forest fires, we are also the link along the coast and rural communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11555 Programming. Exclusive five hours of aboriginal music programming per week. Canadians First Nations artists are featured.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11556 Enhancing Canada's First Nations cultural fabric by offering a wide variety of First Nations music, we serve the many different First Nations cultures in Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11557 Promoting Canadian First Nations talent. Also providing a is service to play local artists in order to provide a way for the artists to become promoted. This helps to reflect back to the local communities what is of cultural value and to them express the First Nations musical perspectives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11558 Because of the sheer vastness of First Nations communities that we serve, we are obliged to reach a large demographic ranging from 18 to 55. The format we mainly use is Classic Rock, although we do have a Blues program and a Good Time Oldies, and other different music that we bring forward. CFNR has a family friendly format. You will not hear any rude jokes or profanity. We play the hits from the 60s to the 90s normally. Again, our people are fairly conservative and would not like us to do anything else but that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11559 Lynne Terbasket is our host of our Tribal Trax program, an employee of 20 years. Lynne came to us straight out of BCIT. Lynne has been an important part of CFNR and has established herself well with close contacts with First Nations people throughout B.C. With her communication of events, issues and all things related to our people, Lynne hosts Tribal Trax, a one‑hour program that focuses on culture, individual success stories and developments that occur throughout B.C. Lynne tells the stories of successful individuals, role models, interviews Elders, events, tells stories of our past, culture. Lynne has become an important link with our First Nations communities, enabling them to keep up to date with information regarding the issues of our people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11560 Wilp Wilxo'oskwhl Nisga'a 411 community calendar. This CFNR program runs five times a day, which enables the First Nations communities to announce meetings, fundraisers, event, funerals, potlatches, pole raisings. When Kitkatla needed to announce an important treaty meeting, they used CFNR to reach their membership, both on reserve as well as members living throughout our broadcast area in the urban centres. This service is free to our listeners.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11561 Tri Corp on the Road. We currently have a phone‑in feature weekly involving Peter Lantin from Tri Corp, a lending institution based outside of Prince Rupert. He is currently visiting communities within our listening area and calling from each one, covering and sharing stories of economic and community‑based programs with the rest of our listeners in the other tribal groups. Recently he interviewed the Chief of Bella Bella, just north of Vancouver Island, who spoke of a $2 million initiative and the benefits it will bring their community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11562 The Western Association of Aboriginal Broadcasters or WAAB. Northern Native Broadcasting, CFNR, along with our counterparts in the four western provinces have joined forces. This association, now a society, registered, enables us to better bring forward the better sharing of ideas and resources and joint programming. We share as well and produce programs that run on all of our networks. Example, the top 30 aboriginal countdown.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11563 Residential school settlement programs. We have recently run four programs dedicated to assist our people who are the survivors of the residential school system. Our next program will be a live call‑in program based from Manitoba through NCI. WAAB will be hosting the call‑in program from Winnipeg, with a panel made up of national aboriginal leaders, counsellors, as well as money management experts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11564 Aboriginal People's Choice Awards, CAMAs and more. With the Western Association of Aboriginal Broadcasters, we can now reach 450,000 people in four western provinces.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11565 NNB (CFNR) is committed to mentoring, providing training and employment opportunities for aboriginal peoples we serve. We have been successful in training and mentoring our people to become some of the best in their chosen field within the broadcast industry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11566 Our entire Board of Directors, management and most of our staff are of aboriginal descent. Our entire group is dedicated and focused to providing a first class product for our listening audience, with a blend of providing a language and culture component.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11567 With respect, it is our intention to meaningful consult with the Okanagan First Nation Alliance and the Westbank First nations, and we look forward to hiring and training and creating an opportunity for a culturally relevant radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11568 I thank you very much for the opportunity to take part in this process.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11569 I would like to invite Lynne Terbasket to share her story.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11570 Way', my name is Tminatkw Ktapasktw. That means hello. My name is Lynne Terbasket. Tminatkw means rising of the dirty brown waters. It comes from our old language which is now extinct. I come from Simikameex, people of the eagle. I am a member of the Lower Similkameen Indian Bank. It has been a long journey to get here. I had two mentors inspire my journey. One was an Elder who taught me all the stories, the history, the legends, just really deep, the medicines, the place names, really beautiful stories, and this is what inspired me to begin this journey into broadcasting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11571 The second person who inspired this journey was the late great George Manual, who was the President of the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs in the 80s asked me what I am going to do to help the people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11572 I said, what do you need? He said, we need people to tell our story. So, as a young teenager I said, all right, I will get into radio. It is our way that we honour our word and I have been committed to this for the past 30 years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11573 I would really like to be able to bring this wonderful tool that we have to the Okanagan because we really help a lot of the people in the area where we do work. We bring great understanding between First Nations and non‑First Nations. We bring a great love of the land, and we look at the environment in a different way and we help people to come to love the environment, the mountains and to really come to know the place and to love it really well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11574 So, these are some of the things that we get to do and some of the programs that we do by reaching out to the Elders and their sharing of the stories of the land and the people who live here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11575 We do chance losing our language. I was told by one Elder that two words in the Navajo language can be expressed 354,000 different ways, three words in the Navajo language will fill more than the Webster's dictionary, and there is a vast area of knowledge that is completely untapped. The next discoveries in science and all other areas will be related to this because there is a whole area of knowledge and information that we, in English language, have not tapped into yet. This is something that we can share on our broadcasts that also makes it exciting because we are accessing the people who have this knowledge that is unexposed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11576 We are extremely successful, and we have been working at it since 1985. That is when I first came on board. Our first program aired December 1985. From there we have just gone straight up, I guess you could say, to our satellite distribution network, opening up, and this was in 1989 to the communities that we are linked to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11577 In 1999 we reached a world wide web audience, and as of 2001 we were on Star Choice satellite across Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11578 There are many reasons why we need the licence. In the story of Terbasket, that means opening of the clouds. As part of the story where one of the brothers brings back to life his older brother, and it involves shooting an arrow into the sky. In many ways you resemble that arrow because when that arrow came back down it went into the hole he had cut into his brother's buckskin jacket and his brother came back to life and the clouds moved back like that and the sun came shining down on them like this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11579 This is the kind of reawakening that you can bring to the people here that we have brought to the people of the north, and I really do encourage you to give us that licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11580 Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11581 MR. BARTLETT: I would like to encourage William to speak, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11582 MR. WESLEY: Madam Chair, members of the Commission, am‑daala‑whaan, hi, how are you?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11583 Just to add to Ron's presentation to you, I want to give you my views of communication.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11584 In the spirit of communication, I feel it is important to introduce myself. My name is William Wesley. I am a Tsimshian from Lax‑kw'alaams, which is also known as Port Simpson on the north coast of B.C. My Indian name is Hey‑wuxth. I am a warrior and protector of my Chief and my people and my tribe. One day I will be the Chief.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11585 I was accepted and started radio training in 1986 and started my career with Northern Native Broadcasting in July of 1987.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11586 My choice of career in radio broadcasting comes from a desire to positively impact the non‑native community for the betterment of our people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11587 I believe communication vehicles offer an avenue of hope to improve life for native people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11588 Communication provides a means by which we can interpret our own reality, define our own identity and, in turn, express these to the world community as a whole.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11589 To those of us who choose this path, the responsibilities are numerous. We are the present day story tellers, as most of our history is orally passed down from our Elders to us. We are the messengers between the villages and the nations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11590 As well, we are the native presence in the information age where we stand strong on aboriginal awareness between the aboriginal and non‑aboriginal communities. We are the carriers of the word.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11591 We are the communicators just as the raven is the communicator in our traditional stories and myths. In many ways we are today's tribal historians.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11592 Our heritage and legacy as the first people of the land demand that we meet these responsibilities for future generations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11593 We can, through radio, preserve, our language and culture through preserving our traditional stories. We are the watchdogs of native governments, organizations and agencies as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11594 Just as important, we have the responsibility to ensure that all First Nations are kept informed of federal and provincial government policies and laws which affect and influence our lives. In many ways, we represent the only glimpses many non‑First Nations have of our culture, heritage and communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11595 If our communities are to improve, we need a strong and free radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11596 Classic Rock CFNR's past and current mandate to initiate freedom of the radio in First Nations communities, as a necessary step towards that agenda or goal, it is my belief that only communication between all members of our First Nations will improve the quality of life of all native people. That has always been the responsibility of communications in our societies, a goal we share at CFNR.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11597 We are linked to the Western Association of Aboriginal Broadcasters for the betterment of communities in western Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11598 Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11599 MR. BARTLETT: We would like to thank you again, Madam Chair and Commissioners, and this completes our presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11600 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11601 I will ask Commissioner Williams to lead the questioning. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11602 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good morning, Mr. Wesley and Ms Terbasket, and I am sorry, I missed your name.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11603 MR. BARTLETT: Ron Bartlett.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11604 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Bartlett. Who should I direct my questions to, to you, Mr. Bartlett?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11605 MR. BARTLETT: Yes, I would be glad to answer your questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11606 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. Welcome to our hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11607 As you know, the CRTC Native Broadcasting Policy states that native undertaking should, amongst other things, be specifically oriented to the native population and reflect the interests and needs specific to the native audience it is licensed to serve. It has a distinct role in fostering the development of aboriginal cultures and, where possible, the preservation of ancestral languages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11608 I have a series of questions in this area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11609 We have, of course, as you know, received some interventions from local aboriginal community that have suggested they are not in support of your application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11610 Can you please tell me what level of local consultation that you went through, and maybe also comment on the importance of local ownership and involvement in order for this type of service to succeed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11611 MR. BARTLETT: Yes. I think if you look at the models of our western Canada broadcast system for aboriginal broadcasters, we do consult with, but the process of the CRTC does not allow for meaningful consultation. The short time lines that were there for us to apply for the licence, again in our culture, consultation is more than a word. It means accommodation, and consultation is something that we do on an ongoing basis, not just when we are applying for a licence or appearing before a Commission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11612 I am visiting communities each week, at least one or two villages within our 45 communities in our broadcast area to make sure I am continually consulting with them, bringing out their issues, bringing out their needs and what they would like to see. Then we bring those needs forward and be their voice to the other tribal groups. We are more than just a single village or a single tribal group. In southern B.C., we want to ‑‑ now we have matured for 20 years. We have become successful in what we are doing, we have become a voice of the First Nations people throughout B.C. We want to extend our network, as we have in the north, to the south. We are financially able to do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11613 So, what we hope to do is to first and foremost consult the Westbank First Nation and the Okanagan Alliance and to make sure that their needs of communication are brought into what we would do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11614 That we will promise to do, and make them part of what we are going forward as an organization.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11615 We have a strong component already of their people. Lynne Terbasket is of the Okanagan peoples, and we are really, if you could imagine, a multi‑national First Nations organization.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11616 British Columbia has over 20 different tribal groups, with close to 200 villages. The second largest population of aboriginal peoples in Canada live in B.C. So, we have to take into account the interests of certainly the First Nations people of Okanagan, but also of the 12 other tribal groups of southern B.C., and they have different cultures and different languages as different as French and English. So, again, we have to represent them all globally and we certainly will consult with them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11617 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, if I understand you, have you had meetings with any of the local groups, the Okanagan Nation Alliance or the Westbank First Nation prior to now?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11618 MR. BARTLETT: Yes, we have actually. Chief Louis had come to our station. Perhaps I can let William or Lynne, who had a firsthand visit with him, I wasn't in the station at the time he was there, but he had expressed an interest that we come and do exactly the same thing here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11619 Lynne has been communicating with many of her associates and relatives within the Okanagan communities. Again, the indication is that we are welcomed with what we have.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11620 We haven't had the opportunity to communicate directly on a government‑to‑business basis, but, again, that is our opportunity. It is our intention to do that as we go forward.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11621 Perhaps Lynne or William, if you wanted to recount Chief Louis' visit.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11622 MS TERBASKET: Over the past number of years we have met with Okanagan Nation Alliance and the Chiefs of the Okanagan. They did support our efforts a number of years ago and encouraged us to keep going and to bring this to the area, to the region and develop it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11623 Unfortunately, we haven't been able to sit down with Westbank First Nation or Okanagan Nation Alliance. However, due to our short notice that we were going to bring together the application, we never had the opportunity to contact them, although we would not proceed without having them directly involved with the programming, the sound of the station, et cetera.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11624 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What specific measures would you put into place to bring their involvement to a state where it was supportive? What would you be offering and what would you be providing them to gain their support?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11625 MR. BARTLETT: Again, we don't operate in isolation. We need their involvement. We will be looking at this being the head office, just as we have a mirror of our northern network where in Terrace we have our head office and studio. We would propose to do exactly the same thing here in Kelowna and we need people, we need First Nations people. We would draw from their people and employ them and train them and mentor them. So I think we would have a very good significant involvement with their community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11626 This, again, as we do in the north, would be the head office of our southern network. We are proposing that we would do a similar network in the north into the south where we would rebroadcast via satellite to the remote villages throughout southern B.C. as well as to where opportunity presents to the urban centres where many First Nations live.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11627 Because we are building our head office here, we would engage them directly again in employment, in training and having their people work in our organization, and we would consult them again.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11628 Again, apologies. The time line of the application doesn't provide for meaningful consultation, and that is the word that I think that we would like to bring forward. Meaningful consultation again means accommodation, and that is something that is actually entrenched in law, in First Nations law. So we understand that and we would go forward doing that. We have had no problem to this point in any other part of B.C.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11629 But, again, this is going to be a head office that serves 12 other First Nations groups with different languages and different cultures. So, we would also have to consult with them as well and make sure that the programming is going to be relevant to all the First Nations in the south, just as we are doing it now in the north. We have a proven model in the north.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11630 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That is a good lead into the next question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11631 Give us a description of the programs that will be broadcast and how are they going to be relevant to the Kelowna aboriginal population, keeping in mind that the Native Broadcasting Policy, as I have said at the outset of the questioning, be specifically oriented to the native population and reflect the interests and needs specific to the audience that it is licensed to serve. So, if it is licensed for the Kelowna market, describe some of the programming that will be relevant to the Kelowna aboriginal population.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11632 MR. BARTLETT: Oh yes, by all means.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11633 Again, we would have an opportunity to bring to the Kelowna market, as we do in the north right now, the complete aboriginal community from western Canada. With our association of the Western Association of Aboriginal Broadcasters, the local people here need to have an understanding of what is happening to their fellow First Nations people throughout Canada, and we bring that opportunity through our association here, through also shared programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11634 As an example, our residential school program you would not hear on any other network or broadcaster except through our medium. We presently have four programs that we have run recently. They have been run throughout western Canada where we have been able to have high profile First Nations leaders, Canadian leaders address our people, as well as people that have been involved in putting together the residential school agreement. We have had counsellors to help with the issues around healing with the residential school issue, plus money management people to help the survivors better manage what they are going to be receiving.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11635 Again, you would not hear that in any other network but ours. From there, we have a live call‑in program coming up on November 25th, that is going to link all of western Canada, and the people here will benefit from that. There are many survivors here that need this information that aren't going to get it many other ways.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11636 We will, again through meaningful consultation with the Westbank First Nation and the Okanagan Alliance, we will consult them, that is a promise. We will from there bring out what they need to have brought out, and not just to these communities here, but their issues will be brought out to the greater audience through B.C. We are a B.C.‑wide network as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11637 So, we will consult them, yes, on a local basis and we will bring in valuable information to them on a daily basis from the outside connections of our association.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11638 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Bartlett.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11639 You propose to broadcast 12 hours of spoken word programming, which includes three hours of news, seven hours of other talk and two hours of public affairs. How will your spoken word programming be distinct, specifically oriented to the needs of the Kelowna marketplace?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11640 MR. BARTLETT: For one thing we will have their own language being broadcast, which is specifically looking at the Okanagan people. We will broadcast their language.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11641 We will also bring out their needs as far as communication from one community to another.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11642 Our people, they are in tribal groups and they have relatives from one community to another. When there are things like feasts, which is our potlatch, or our judicial system, we will broadcast those. Then from there, if there is any events, whether it be deaths or meetings or simply fundraising for their community groups, we will do that. We will work right there with them side by side, which we do in the north. We will do here for them as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11643 So, we will focus on bringing and building capacity and showcasing their events in their different communities. Their different cultural programs we will do as well, specifically directed to the Okanagan First Nation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11644 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Have you decided on any specific type of programming or any specific local people that are involved to help you put this together?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11645 MR. BARTLETT: Lynne actually has been doing that now for approximately 20 years. We have been bringing the news and views of the Okanagan people to the north. Lynne is from the Okanagan and she has family here that are in different levels of government.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11646 Lynne is heading our Tribal Trax program, which is a very important part of our day. We are going to mirror that program here. She would be here and directly involved in producing it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11647 So, you know, we have direct contact with the Okanagan First Nations people through Lynne Terbasket, an Okanagan member.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11648 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The programming in your southern network would be different than the programming in the northern?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11649 MR. BARTLETT: We would take the good things that would work from the northern network, but again with consultation from the local peoples. We would develop what they want to hear.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11650 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Out of the 126 hours of programming per broadcast week, how many hours will be dedicated to native programming, both in English and aboriginal languages and maybe if you can give us a break down between the spoken word and the music programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11651 So, the question is out of the 126 hours of programming, how many hours will be dedicated to native programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11652 MR. BARTLETT: We would have at least 20 hours per week dedicated specifically to local First Nations programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11653 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Of that 20 hours, how much of it is spoken word and how much is music or is that all spoken word?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11654 MR. BARTLETT: That would be a mixture of both, mostly spoken word.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11655 We have a one‑hour spoken word program daily. That is the Tribal Trax program that runs one hour every day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11656 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That is seven hours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11657 MR. BARTLETT: That is seven hours. Then through the day our announcers are continuously interacting with our listeners bringing out birthday requests or meeting announcements.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11658 We have live people working all day long interacting with our listeners and bringing out what they need to be brought out, plus our news programs are all local. We will have three people dedicated to the local news gathering, and that will be brought out each day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11659 With regard to sports, we will also bring that component out as well, again focusing on the First Nations sports activities and any cultural events we would certainly be there to bring that forward.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11660 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, how many hours would that be total now?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11661 MR. BARTLETT: A minimum of 20 hours. It goes longer than that. When we are working with a community promoting their events, it is almost every other word that we speak is directing people to the event to encourage them to come out and support their brothers and sisters in these different communities. That we do on quite a regular basis.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11662 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Your application proposes three hours of news. How many hours of local news stories will be during each broadcast week, like how much of this news is going to be local?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11663 MR. BARTLETT: It is pretty much all local actually. The national news would be brought in from our WAAB association or anything that is important to our people. But, again, our focus is to be local, again distinctive to the south rather than the north. So we would bring forward more issues and news from this area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11664 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Of the three hours, what percentage would be dedicated to the Kelowna marketplace?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11665 MR. BARTLETT: At least one hour, you know. Again, it depends on what is happening within the First Nations communities in southern B.C. We would certainly focus ‑‑ this is going to be the head office and this would be the centre of focus, but there is other issues that would affect our peoples on a daily basis throughout B.C., southern B.C. first, then B.C. and then western Canada. We would bring those components into the day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11666 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: With respect to newscasts, how many will be offered over the course of a broadcast week or a broadcast day?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11667 MR. BARTLETT: At the top and the bottom of every hour for ten hours a day. That is not just news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11668 Our peoples, if you can imagine living in the rural communities, a road report is not a luxury. On the coast, the weather reports are not a luxury. They are a necessity. If you are travelling many miles to an urban centre for your goods and services, for the safety of your family you need to listen to the road reports. We have detailed road reports that would cover and encompass the full travel distance of the Okanagan First Nation first and then what is happening around.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11669 From there, the different elements that they would need during the day to keep themselves going, we would bring that in as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11670 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, a typical newscast, what would be the average length of this newscast? How much time would it be?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11671 MR. BARTLETT: About ten minutes per ‑‑ we have one major news report at the top of the hour and a shortened one at the bottom of the hour. So, then ten minutes and then five minutes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11672 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is this the case seven days a week or is that just Monday to Friday?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11673 MR. BARTLETT: Monday to Friday, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11674 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What happens on the weekends?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11675 MR. BARTLETT: On the weekends, we do have different programs running on the weekends but our news is basically Monday to Friday.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11676 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I note that you will be live‑to‑air 60 hours per week. Can you tell me exactly when this would occur. Is it 10:00 to 10:00 or 6:00 to 8:00?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11677 MR. BARTLETT: 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. daily.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11678 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, 6:00 to 6:00 daily. And that is seven days a week or what happens on the weekends?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11679 MR. BARTLETT: On the weekends we have prerecorded programming a lot of times but if we are involved with on event it is live broadcasting from those communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11680 A big component of what we do, we actually travel to the villages that we serve and broadcast from their villages as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11681 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I guess we note your proposed musical format would consist of a mixture of popular music as well as blues and country, and we have heard about classic rock which you are using in your network now. As you know, the native policy states that aboriginal broadcasters must play an effective leading role in the development and airplay of native musical talent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11682 What initiatives do you have proposed in that ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 11683 MR. BARTLETT: Presently with our WAAB association, Western Association of Aboriginal Broadcasters, every week we broadcast the top aboriginal 30 countdown weekly and in doing so promote our aboriginal artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11684 With Lynne's Tribal Trax program she features First Nations artists through her program, and that is on a local basis. When we are broadcasting in Kelowna, as we hope to do, that would be bringing in local people here, local First Nations people and promoting them on our program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11685 We also have quite often brought in the artists during the day part and interviewed them as they are going along and played their music as they are sitting there, and it is quite an interesting component. But we do promote local aboriginal artists on a regular basis.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11686 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Coming back to one of my first questions, could you please now tell us the importance of local ownership and involvement in an undertaking such as yours serving this area?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11687 MR. BARTLETT: I appreciate the question, and, again, our focus will be first the Okanagan First Nations people and for their betterment to bring in our opportunities for communication from the B.C. wide audience as well as western Canada, bringing it here so we can communicate back and forth for them, bringing their views out and the other views in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11688 But, again, we will be hiring local people to fill the positions here. We will be training and mentoring, just as we have for William and Lynne, bringing them up to a place where they can work in any environment anywhere.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11689 Right now, our First Nations component of our staffing is about 80 per cent. I don't think you would have that even if you started a local station because you would have to have expertise brought in to first train and go. But we offer as well a much greater depth that we can bring to the Okanagan people with our experience and our successes, and this will be brought into our radio station here locally. Again, we will be hiring local people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11690 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Bartlett for that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11691 Do you see any opportunities for the local people in terms of, say, ownership or a joint venture or positions on the Board of Directors or senior managers of the organization, or is that something that you will provide from northern B.C. and just train people for the operation?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11692 MR. BARTLETT: I am sure that those opportunities will arise, but we really need to have meaningful consultation, which again your process hasn't allowed us to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11693 We were simply applying for a licence first and then once we have the licence, we will come in and we will consult. Much like our northern operation, our Board of Directors are made of representatives from the different tribal groups and we would need that input here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11694 Certainly senior management, there are many qualified people in this area that we will bring on board to assist us and guide us and help us build a network relevant to the communities here. Then from employment, we need to mentor and train again people from this area. So we would provide that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11695 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, Mr. Bartlett and Ms Terbasket and Mr. Wesley, thank you very much for your presentation. That concludes my line of questioning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11696 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11697 I just have a couple of follow‑up questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11698 You have mentioned it a couple of times that our process does not allow you to do consultation. Can you educate me on what are the barriers to our process that do not allow you to do that and is there anything about our process that we could change?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11699 MR. BARTLETT: We were simply applying for a licence. We appreciate the opportunity, but meaningful consultation would have to take place over a period of time, and we want to make sure that we would devote that time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11700 So, with the short time line we had for applying for the licence we did. And our intention is to consult with again the local First Nations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11701 Again, consultation means accommodation, not just to talk or send a letter. So, accommodation means, and this is actually entrenched in law with the Delgamuuxth decision that happened some time back, where consultation has to be engaging of both parties and also accommodating both parties.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11702 So, that is what we mean by consultation. It is a higher level of discussion. It is not discussion. It is consultation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11703 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything about our process that we could change that would allow you to do that in a more meaningful way the next time?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11704 MR. BARTLETT: Well, if we had a few months to apply.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11705 THE CHAIRPERSON: So it is just a matter of time?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11706 MR. BARTLETT: It is time. We do appreciate again the opportunity, but we apologize to the local First Nations groups that consultation, the way we understand it, couldn't happen in that time line. But, again, it is our intention and we go on record as saying we will consult with the local First Nations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11707 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11708 I am asking this question only as it relates to your share projections. Can you tell me what percentage of the population in this market is aboriginal and, therefore, would be your target core audience?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11709 MR. BARTLETT: Again, that is a difficult question to quantify because there are a number of aboriginal peoples living in the urban centre here. You can get the totals of the villages, but the urban centre, it is really a multi‑national group that lives in Kelowna.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11710 William was visiting his sister here last night and he has a nephew here. There are many other peoples that have come to live in Kelowna because of the economic opportunities from the 200 villages throughout B.C. living in the urban centre.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11711 So, there are many people of aboriginal descent. I would suggest 15, maybe 20 per cent in that area. That would be conservatively.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11712 THE CHAIRPERSON: That would be conservative?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11713 MR. BARTLETT: Yes. In the north we actually have a huge population of aboriginal peoples there, but it is a little less in the south with the larger urban populations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11714 THE CHAIRPERSON: Therefore, if you don't have an exact number, and perhaps you haven't done that kind of demographic study, what factors went into these share projections that you have filed with us in the application? In other words, how did you come up with these projections because some might argue that for your type of radio station, for a specialty format, these are a bit high.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11715 MR. BARTLETT: Okay. We are going by best information provided at that time. So, that, to the best of our knowledge, is what we understand to be the case.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11716 THE CHAIRPERSON: You spoke a little bit with Commissioner Williams about your format. Do you have an estimate as to what percentage of the music will feature aboriginal artists or whichever way you choose to quantify it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11717 MR. BARTLETT: About 10 to 15 per cent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11718 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ten to 15 per cent of the music will feature aboriginal artists?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11719 MR. BARTLETT: Yes. At different day parts it will be 100 per cent. During the Tribal Trax program, it is between 6:00 and 7:00 every night, it is all aboriginal. Our top 30 countdown which happens once a week is all aboriginal. From there it is a mixture through our day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11720 But aboriginal people love music as well, so from there we are just like you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11721 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11722 MR. WESLEY: It depends on what time of day it is. Usually throughout the day we still play a lot of the recorded artists internationally known, Buffy Sainte‑Marie, Robbie Robertson. We still do a little bit of Kashtin.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11723 THE CHAIRPERSON: And this would be throughout the broadcast week?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11724 MR. WESLEY: That is right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11725 THE CHAIRPERSON: What percentage of your spoken word programming would be in aboriginal languages?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11726 MR. BARTLETT: We committed to ‑‑ like the aboriginal language specifically?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11727 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11728 MR. BARTLETT: One and a half hours per week would be aboriginal language.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11729 Again, it is a really important part of what we offer. The average speaker of our language is 55 years old now, and it has been well noted that our language is at risk of being lost very soon. So, it is an important part of what we do, not just the language, the culture as well. Our culture, we are so bombarded by outside influences today that it is very difficult to be of aboriginal descent and retain your culture in an urban environment specifically, and more so in the south than the north. In the north we have many supports but here it is very difficult.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11730 Our first and foremost wish is to aid in the retention of the language and also be a benefit to the people and their culture.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11731 THE CHAIRPERSON: And that is why we asked the question as to how much of your programming will in fact target specifically the aboriginal community because it also provides for the distinctiveness of your service when compared to what is currently available in the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11732 I understand from your proposal that this mixture of different types of music is what will best address the tastes and needs of the aboriginal community, but we must also look at it from the point of view of the impact it is going to have on the market and on the incumbents. I am wondering if you have had an opportunity to assess what impact you will have?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11733 MR. BARTLETT: I think that in looking at the unique aspect of our programming and our delivery, we will have a minimal effect on what is being broadcast and what is being presented to the Kelowna market. We will have a major effect on the aboriginal population. I use the word aboriginal because it is more than First Nations. There are Métis, there are Inuit, there are others. And again, living in this urban centre there are many other First Nations here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11734 So, our appeal is to them, and I am sure we will have some crossover in listeners. In the north we are who we are, and we don't hide our First Nations identity in any way. Almost every other ID is Canada's First Nations radio and on and on. But we do have popularity in the north through other peoples listening.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11735 THE CHAIRPERSON: So if I understand your position correctly, you acknowledge that there may be some overlap with the existing radio stations in this market, but it is the manner in which you will package your radio station that will cause it to be distinct and address the needs and tastes of the aboriginal community. Have I got that right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11736 MR. BARTLETT: Yes. I think one of the reasons for our success is that we have been able to, through 20 years of experience now, do that in a very upbeat and very positive way. Because it is so upbeat and positive, a lot of the non‑First Nations people like listening to that as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11737 We do have some listeners of the non‑aboriginal population.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11738 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. One final question which we are asking all applicants. How many radio stations do you believe the Kelowna market can sustain?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11739 MR. BARTLETT: Coming from where we are right now, which has been a depressed economy and we have been working in communities a fifth this size with many, many radio stations to compete against and we are successful as well as they, I would suggest you could have two mainstream radio stations and as well two alternate stations here without much of a problem. Again citing the 45,000 increase in population since the last licence was here and the demographics that are here that aren't being served, this radio market is underserved, to my understanding.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11740 THE CHAIRPERSON: If we were to licence, as you are suggesting, two commercial FM stations, would any of the proposals that we have before us this week have more or less of an impact on your proposal?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11741 MR. BARTLETT: Not at all. Again, we are a unique commodity. Our first and foremost focus is the aboriginal population. Theirs is not.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11742 I don't know if I could relate to you, but my first job that I had gotten in industry, my application said, yes, Indian in pencil written on it. I was a token Indian. That is not the case with our station. We are First Nations first. We are 80 per cent First Nations of staffing and management. Our focus will be on the First Nations and aboriginal populations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11743 Again, we are not going to be trying to reach the major market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11744 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11745 Legal counsel?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11746 MS LEHOUX: No.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11747 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11748 Mr. Bartlett, you have two minutes to give us your final pitch.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11749 MR. BARTLETT: Again, thank you, Madam Chair and Commissioners.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11750 Thank you for the opportunity to apply for a broadcast licence for Kelowna. Our plan again is to consult with the local First Nations first, and then from there continue our provincial network similar to our northern network, with the main studio and head office in Kelowna, employing people from this area and engaging them in management as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11751 We will also be serving the 12 different tribal groups and many aboriginal peoples in the urban centres with many different languages and cultures.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11752 We are asking for no more than our sister networks in western Canada, like NCI of Manitoba, who now serve most of Manitoba, including Winnipeg. With the other networks from western Canada continuing to expand and better serve their peoples, we are asking for the same thing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11753 Our language and culture is disappearing, with the average speaker being 55 years old. With our association of Western Association of Aboriginal Broadcasters, we bring many resources, as well as over 20 years broadcast service servicing the tribal groups in the north.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11754 B.C. has the second largest population of aboriginal peoples in Canada and are the fastest growing population of people in Canada. Northern Native Broadcasting, CFNR, is the best option to serve our people of B.C. and I would encourage you to approve our licence application for Kelowna.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11755 Again, we will continue to consult the local First Nations to bring their views and input to our station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11756 Thank you for this opportunity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11757 THE CHAIRPERSON: To Mr. Bartlett and your colleagues, thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11758 Madam Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11759 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11760 I would now ask Radio CJVR Limited to come forward to the presentation table.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11761 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will take five minutes.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 0931 / Suspension à 0931
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 0940 / Reprise à 0940
LISTNUM 1 \l 11762 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11763 THE SECRETARY: Please be seated, we will begin.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11764 We will now proceed with item 8 which is an application by Radio CJVR Limited for a licence to operate an English‑language FM radio programming undertaking in Kelowna, British Columbia.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11765 The new station would operate on frequency 96.3, with an average effective radiated power of 7,100 watts, maximum effective radiated power of 20,000 watts, antenna height of minus 89 metres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11766 Appearing to the applicant is Mr. Ken Singer. Please introduce your colleagues, and you will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 11767 MR. SINGER: Good morning, Madam Chair, Commissioners and staff. Thank you for allowing this opportunity to appear before you once again.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11768 Before we begin our presentation for a new FM licence in Kelowna, I would like to introduce the members of our team.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11769 My name is Ken Singer. I have been with Radio CJVR Limited for the past 11 years of my 40 year broadcasting career. I am Vice‑President of Broadcast Operations for our company, responsible for our two Saskatchewan stations, CJVR‑FM and CKJH‑AM in Melfort, as well as CIXM‑FM in Whitecourt, Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11770 To my right is Kevin Gemmell, Station Manager and Sales Manager of our two Melfort stations. Kevin has been with our company over 11 years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11771 On my far left is Dean Sinclair, a broadcast veteran, whose 30‑plus career includes programming, on‑air, sales, senior management experience. Dean has provided input and direction for our proposed Blended Country musical format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11772 Behind Dean is Lang McGilp. Lang has over ten years of market research experience working with some of the largest research firms in Canada, including Ipsos‑Reid, and is currently Vice‑President of Research Services for Insightrix Research Inc. of Saskatoon.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11773 To his right is Linda Rheaume, Administrative Manager for our stations. Linda has been a part of our team for the past 16 years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11774 On my immediate left is Gene Fabro, the President and owner of Fabmar Investments Limited of Alberta. As a prominent western Canadian entrepreneur, the Fabro family have been in business for over a half a century and, through its holding company Fabmar Investments, have over the past 25 years invested heavily in a broad cross‑section of industrial activities, including land development and home building, manufacturing, wood lot management, oil and gas exploration, coal resource holdings, office and retail buildings and, for the past 15 years, radio broadcasting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11775 MR. FABRO: Madam Chair and Commissioners, Radio CJVR comes before you today asking for approval to establish an FM programming undertaking on frequency 96.3 to serve Kelowna and surrounding communities within the Central Okanagan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11776 Such approval will result in a dynamic new FM radio service that is programmed to meet the unfulfilled listening needs and preferences of the region's rapidly growing and underserved 45‑plus demographic spectrum.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11777 CJVR's Blended Country format will greatly enhance the existing level of programming diversity within the market, champion the development of local talent and offer Kelowna businesses an alternative advertising vehicle to target specific age groups on a more cost efficient basis.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11778 In addition to enhancing the diversity of editorial voices and local programming choices, Country 96 will further strengthen Kelowna's radio sector by establishing competitive balance in the market and adding diversity to the ownership structure of British Columbia's private broadcasting spectrum.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11779 Approval of Country 96 will, in essence, restore the presence of a strong independent local radio voice within the Kelowna market that is presently owned and controlled by two large multimedia companies with broadcasting licences across western Canada and beyond.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11780 As the Commission knows, over the past two years, CJVR has applied for new broadcasting licenses in various underserved markets across western Canada in an effort to expand our radio business and assume a larger role as an independent within Canada's private broadcasting sector.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11781 As a dedicated radio company, CJVR brings to Kelowna 41 years of broadcast experience, a nationally acclaimed reputation for programming excellence, a talent development track record that is second to none, a corporate culture which embodies a deep‑rooted sense of community and motivated owners committed to making a difference in the lives of their employees, their listeners and their communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11782 Based on the stated needs and listening preferences of Kelowna residents, CJVR's unique musical and spoken word programming initiatives, will help bridge the service disparity gaps within the 45 to 64 and 65‑plus age groups whose combined demos represent 55 per cent of Kelowna's adult population.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11783 MR. SINGER: Madam Chair, Kelowna's incumbent radio operators would have you believe that the programming formats being proposed at this hearing are already covered by five existing stations, thus negating the need for a new FM undertaking on the premise that it will bring little, if any, added diversity to the local market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11784 Further, they maintain that Kelowna residents are well satisfied with the listening choices currently available to them on local radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11785 In looking beyond the posturing of these two ownership groups, CJVR, through its extensive consumer demand research, has discovered that such arguments are inconsistent with the expressed needs and programming voids identified by the hundreds of Kelowna residents who participated in our two consumer studies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11786 By way of example, 65 per cent of Kelowna residents surveyed said they would listen to radio more often if the programming they liked was available. 57 per cent agreed that Kelowna's existing stations offer similar programming, and 50 per cent stated that often there is very little on the radio that they like to listen to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11787 The study conducted by Insightrix Research Services notes that a large segment of dissatisfied listeners falls within the 45‑plus age group and, in particular, those aged 55‑plus. This is consistent with CJVR's analysis of current local musical and spoken word programming which shows that existing stations are largely catering to the younger 18 to 44 age group, at the near exclusion of the 45‑plus age group, the largest and most rapidly growing cohort within Kelowna's broader community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11788 MR. GEMMELL: Madam Chair, CJVR commissioned IRS to go into the field to explore the musical preferences of Kelowna's residents. In all, a battery of 17 different music genres were presented to 400 respondents between the ages of 18 and 70.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11789 Of all the music styles presented, country proved to be the music of preference, as 44 per cent of respondents overall said they wanted to hear more country music on Kelowna radio. The IRS survey also indicated an interest in both new country and traditional country music styles.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11790 After viewing the survey results, CJVR concluded that a Blended Country music format would better serve Kelowna's population than either a new or traditional country station on their own. To test this theory, CJVR had IRS survey an additional 400 Kelowna residents aged 35 to 70.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11791 The results of this second survey indicated that 58 per cent of respondents were interested in the proposed Blended Country music station. While 69 per cent of both males and females aged 55‑plus stated they were very interested in such a station, followed by 67 per cent of females aged 35 to 44.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11792 In terms of spoken word programming, many felt the need for more information on events and activities within the Kelowna area. Nearly 37 per cent were less than satisfied with the amount of coverage that existing stations are providing to artists and performers, and 40 per cent of respondents expressed the view that Kelowna's cultural diversity is not well reflected on current local stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11793 MR. SINGER: Madam Chair, in recent weeks Kelowna's underserved 45‑plus listenership spectrum has been further impacted by two format changes undertaken by both incumbent ownership groups.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11794 Standard/Astral's CKFR‑AM has opted to change from an Oldies format to a News/Information station, thus removing one of the few local music sources of interest to Kelowna's older demographic. As well, Pattison's CKOV, in converting from AM to FM, has aborted its approved Soft Vocals format in favour of a Hot New Country music station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11795 CJVR's concern is that our application may get short circuited by another broadcast organization's change of heart. Before you discount us as just another Country station for Kelowna, CJVR would urge the Commission to look at our application for what it will mean to Kelowna residents, to new and emerging talent and to the Canadian broadcasting system.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11796 As a matter of principle, CJVR takes issue with the sequence of events leading up to this hearing, events which have changed the dynamics of the marketplace and of this public process. First, CKOV proceeded after the fact to abandon the Soft Vocals format. Next, there is an attempt by a competing applicant to materially change their application just 13 days prior to the start of this public hearing. Both of these actions have placed CJVR's application, among others, in a highly prejudicial position at these hearings.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11797 MR. FABRO: Madam Chair, my family and my colleagues are excited and optimistic about the prospect of establishing a first class FM radio service at Kelowna, the hub of the Central Okanagan and the largest centre for urban development, business, commerce, retail and health care services between Greater Vancouver and Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11798 I would add that we do not agree with the economic portrait of Kelowna as painted by the two incumbent broadcast groups who maintain that the local market economy is too fragile to support a new FM station without wreaking havoc and throwing the market into a tail spin.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11799 In looking beyond the posturing and self‑interests of these incumbent broadcast groups, CJVR, through the results of the IRS economic analysis, advertiser survey, and consumer demand studies, finds their prognosis to be somewhat contradictory of the economic reality of the local market economy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11800 MS RHEAUME: Madam Chair, among the key indicators noted in the IRS economic analysis, which confirm the vibrant growth of Kelowna's market economy and its ability to support an additional local FM station are the following:
LISTNUM 1 \l 11801 Kelowna's population grew by 11 per cent between 2001 and 2006 and is projected to increase by 138 per cent over the next 25 years, while the province is only expected to grow by 30 per cent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11802 Retail sales in Kelowna are estimated by FP markets to be in excess of $2.7 billion for 2007, some 27 per cent above the national average and are projected to increase on average more than 6 per cent per year to just over $3 billion in 2009 and to nearly $3.7 billion by 2012.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11803 The FP markets study indicates the average family income in Kelowna is 73,500 per year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11804 The participation rate in the economy has grown to its highest point since 1994, reaching 65 per cent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11805 The number of housing starts has doubled between 2001 and 2004, while building permits in 2005 achieved record levels with a 74 per cent increase over 2004.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11806 MR. GEMMELL: Madam Chair, CJVR's market analysis, based on the FP Canadian markets retail sales report, estimates that total market advertising expenditures are approximately 4 per cent of retail sales, indicating that total advertising dollars available to all media in the Kelowna market in 2007 is over $108 million.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11807 Based on FP markets report, CJVR concludes that 12 per cent or $12.9 million of that figure should be obtainable by all local radio. We believe that five existing stations would garner approximately $10 million of that amount, with the remaining $2.9 million in untapped radio advertising available to a new market entrant.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11808 CJVR's estimated revenue in year one is $1.7 million. Of this amount, we anticipate that only 6 per cent will come from existing radio stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11809 The IRS advertiser survey confirmed the desire of Kelowna's business community for a new FM station that will add an element of competitive balance to a market that is currently dominated by the two existing ownership groups. CJVR's proposed Country 96 was well received by local advertisers who were near unanimous in their view that Kelowna could definitely sustain a new station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11810 MR. SINCLAIR: Madam Chair, CJVR's style of providing great music and locally relevant community driven spoken word programming is fully in step with the stated needs of Kelowna's 45‑plus listenership, and in particular those aged 55 to 70, whose current programming choices fall well short of what is available to younger age groups.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11811 In terms of Country 96's musical approach, the IRS survey indicated that Kelowna's Country fans are quite eclectic in their tastes for different styles of Country music, as evidenced by the fact that nearly 52 per cent of respondents who want to hear more Hot New Country also want to hear more Traditional Country music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11812 Hence, Country 96 will offer a full spectrum of Country music styles, rich in history and in heritage. Essentially, we will blend mainstream Country artists from past decades who have formed the foundation for today's country music, in addition to showcasing new and emerging artists. From Hank Williams to Hank Snow, George Strait to Doc Walker, Buck Owens to Tommy Hunter, Vince Gill to Tammy Wynette, Reba to Terri Clark and, of course, Kelowna's own Cruzeros, Country 96 will play them all.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11813 This Blended Country music format is an artist driven sound with a big fan base that is fiercely loyal. It is all about this blended sound.
‑‑‑ Audio presentation / présentation audio
LISTNUM 1 \l 11814 MR. SINCLAIR: Madam Chair, make no mistake, Country 96's Blended Country music format will bring pure musical diversity to the Kelowna market in spite of the sudden arrival on the scene of Pattison's CKOV‑FM Country, which for all intent and purpose is a near clone of their Vancouver Country station CJJR.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11815 A top line comparison of CKOV and CJVR's proposed Blended Country format graphically illustrates that Country 96 is truly different and, as such, will add fresh diversity to Kelowna's private radio sector, while quenching Country fans thirst for a mix of different Country music styles.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11816 Aimed at the 45‑plus listener, most of Country 96's 1500 song playlist will cover the past five decades. By comparison CKOV's Hot New Country format is aimed at an 18 to 34 audience, with about 60 per cent of their 500 song playlist from the past two years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11817 In terms of Canadian content, CKOV plays the minimum regulated 35 per cent, whereas Country 96 has committed to no less than 40 per cent, of which 30 per cent will be devoted to new and emerging artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11818 With respect to current and incremental dollars for Canadian content development, CKOV will contribute $91,000 over seven years, as compared to Country 96's commitment to $1 million in direct expenditures over the term of the licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11819 MR. SINGER: Madam Chair, a further diverse component to Country 96's musical agenda evolves around the creation of a series of special music based programs that will be produced in studio and aired on the station's regular program schedule.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11820 The creation of these special programs is in keeping with CJVR's approach to CCD that combines on‑air exposure of Canadian talent along with financial support through a series of direct expenditures on a diverse mix of initiatives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11821 The following programs are largely devoted to the on‑air promotion and exposure of Canadian Country music artists and will feature many new and emerging artists:
LISTNUM 1 \l 11822 Country 96 Release Party; Canadian Coast to Coast; Country 96 Club Night Live; Okanagan Country Gospel; West Coast Country Sunday; and Country Roots.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11823 Madam Chair, in addition to its great music, Country 96 will provide listeners with locally relevant, community driven spoken word programming that will reflect and portray Kelowna, its people, and its culture, through the daily coverage of local events and activities that are happening in the city and surrounding communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11824 To ensure that Country 96 achieves these objectives, CJVR has formulated a broadcast plan that will enable the station to keep a steady finger on the daily pulse of life and times within Kelowna and the Central Okanagan. This will be achieved in a number of ways, including a series of spoken word features as outlined in our supplementary brief. These include among others:
LISTNUM 1 \l 11825 Okanagan Connections; Culturally Speaking; Okanagan Mosaics; Kelowna Lifestyle; and City Beat.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11826 County 96 will also produce a weekly 60‑minute news magazine styled program entitled "An Okanagan Perspective" which airs Sunday mornings at 10:00 and features four 15‑minute segments that are directly relevant to Kelowna and area residents.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11827 Country 96 will also provide throughout the broadcast week day and up until noon on weekends, regular local news and surveillance information packages to round out the programming needs and preferences of its 45‑plus listenership spectrum.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11828 CJVR is also committed to reflecting the diversity of the region's cultural heritage through its daily musical and spoken word programming as well as through vignettes provided by groups and individuals from various backgrounds with a story to tell.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11829 In recognition of Kelowna's cultural achievements, CJVR will establish a full time arts and culture coordinator, who will provide comprehensive coverage of the city's dynamic arts and culture universe, as well as coordinate Country 96's participation in all such matters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11830 MR. GEMMELL: Madam Chair, approve of CJVR's application will have a highly beneficial impact on Canadian talent in Kelowna and the Central Okanagan as Country 96 implements its creative and meaningful array of direct and indirect spending initiatives and special programming undertakings, designed to develop, promote and expose local talent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11831 CJVR brings to Kelowna and Country 96 a proud legacy of excellence, achievement and commitment to talent development that has significantly impacted on the careers of many successful Canadian Country music artists. It will be Country 96's goal to build on that legacy which first took root on the prairies of Saskatchewan over 41 years ago.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11832 Following the new Commercial Radio Policy 2006 guidelines, CJVR's CCD plans over the term of the licence call for a minimum direct expenditure of $1 million, plus an indirect on‑air expenditure of $1 million.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11833 The eight direct expenditure initiatives as outlined in detail in our supplementary brief are as follows:
LISTNUM 1 \l 11834 $219,000, FACTOR talent fund; $140,000 Music Business 101; $103,500, Okanagan Symphony Youth Extended Educational Program; $244,500, Opening Act; $147,500 Kelowna Parks Alive Festival ‑ Country 96 Free Stage; $43,500, Kelowna Canadian Day Folk Fest and Taste of Home; $55,500, Komasket First Nation Music Festival; and $46,500, B.C. Country Music Association.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11835 MR. FABRO: Madam Chair, it is my family's firm conviction that CJVR's musical and spoken word programming initiatives, coupled with its very substantial CCD commitments, truly reflects our unyielding commitment to Kelowna, its residents, the business community and local developing talent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11836 Kelowna wants and needs Country 96 with its unduplicated Blended Country music format, locally relevant community driven spoken word programming, and its exciting array of CCD commitments, all of which, if approved, will take local radio to another level.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11837 In turn, CJVR, as a dedicated career broadcaster, needs Kelowna and Country 96 as we continue to expand our business, enhance our competitiveness, maintain a strong independent radio voice and position ourselves as a viable licensing alternative in markets across western Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11838 Again, we would urge the Commission to look at our application for the real diversity and listener choice that it represents to an ever growing and underserved 45‑plus population and for its ability to strengthen and enhance Kelowna's private radio sector and the Canadian broadcasting system as a whole.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11839 Madam Chair, the operation and co‑existence of two distinctly different Country formatted radio stations in Kelowna would not be precedence setting. The Commission need look no further than the October 30, 2006 Regina hearing and subsequent decision which approved Standard Broadcasting for a new Country station for Regina whose market conditions and population virtually parallel those in Kelowna. Further, in the Saskatoon, Brandon and Halifax markets, which are somewhat similar in size, a Hot New Country and a Traditional Country station co‑exist.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11840 We respectfully urge you to approve our application to provide Kelowna and its residents the quality of radio service they so richly deserve.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11841 We thank you and the Commission for this opportunity to present our application, and will be happy to answer any questions the panel may have.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11842 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Fabro and your colleagues. I will ask Commissioner Morin to lead the questioning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11843 COMMISSIONER MORIN: Good morning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11844 As the CRTC, we are always wondering about the local impact of a proposed station. When I am reading at your oral presentation this morning on page 7, you said that:
"CJVR's estimated revenue in year one will be $1.7 million. Of this amount, we anticipate that only 6 per cent will come from existing radio stations."
LISTNUM 1 \l 11845 My question is simple. How did you get those numbers?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11846 MR. SINGER: Thank you, Commissioner Morin.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11847 I would like to have Kevin comment on that, if you will allow, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11848 MR. GEMMELL: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11849 We have been looking at various markets where new stations have entered the market. I guess I would like to draw you to first of all the Edmonton comparison.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11850 In 2003 the Commission allowed three new licence options in that market. Over the course of 2005 and 2006 they were implemented. We see, when a new station enters the market, a substantial growth in revenue because of those new licences.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11851 In the case of Edmonton, 2004 revenue with 12 stations was about $52 million. In 2006 with now 15 stations on the air, the market revenue grew by $12 million. So there was almost a minimal effect on the incumbent operators because the market grew at that point.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11852 So, again, the $102,000 or the 6 per cent that we show, which is just 1 per cent of the current market revenue, would be of minimal impact to the incumbent operators.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11853 COMMISSIONER MORIN: We note that CKOV‑FM, Jim Pattison is offering a Country music format targeting a similar demographic. Is your County format still viable with the decision of Jim Pattison's group to occupy a Country format?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11854 MR. SINGER: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11855 First of all, we believe that the Pattison format, as outlined in our oral presentation, is not the same demographic target. Certainly, we are both playing country music, should we be licensed for Kelowna, but two totally different approaches.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11856 Perhaps I will ask Dean Sinclair to comment on those differences a bit further.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11857 MR. SINCLAIR: Thanks, ken.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11858 Commissioner Morin, essentially, just to follow on Ken's lead, the incumbent station right now targets an audience that is younger, about 18 to 34. That goes without any BBM ratings at this point. But if you take the style of the radio station parallel to their style of station in Vancouver, and other markets across country, the radio station caters really to playing hot new music, breaking new music and spinning records at high rotation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11859 It is a small playlist, as we alluded to in our piece today, of about 500 songs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11860 The difference of that and the proposal that we are putting together is a blended sound that goes back over five decades. About over 60 per cent of the music that this station in the market currently plays is from the last three years. Ours would go back over a much greater period of time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11861 One of the visuals we used in the room, and we talked about it in terms of how we describe the differences, if you took my little yellow notepad of the CKOV playlist, it would be about this big, and ours is about that big.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11862 That is sort of the basis of the style of music that we have, and then how those songs are treated on the air is somewhat different. We would eventually add the music that the station breaks in this market down the road but not initially. We would really draw on our past catalogue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11863 MR. SINGER: Mr. Commissioner, if I could add further to that, when evaluating the differences in the format, I think you also have to take into consideration the other elements of the format. Many of our spoken word initiatives are clearly targeting a 45‑plus demographic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11864 So, it is the full service mixture of what we are proposing I feel adds more credence to the overall difference between the incumbent and ourselves.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11865 COMMISSIONER MORIN: You are proposing that you are targeting the 55‑plus age group. Will your proposed service cater to a specific core age group and, if so, what would it be?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11866 MR. SINGER: I will again ask Dean to give you a bit of an overview on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11867 MR. SINCLAIR: Thanks, Ken.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11868 Commissioner Morin, actually the main thrust of the radio station is 45‑plus is where it starts off at. It will certainly cater to 55‑plus.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11869 The footprint of the radio station is big. In the case of Country radio, if you have a station in markets like we see in Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Regina, Saskatoon, where one station leaves off the other doesn't pick up necessarily, so there is a little bit of overlap. But the bullet target of our station probably is around the age of 44, 45.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11870 COMMISSIONER MORIN: On page 54 of your written application, you said that there is a significant degree of dissatisfaction expressed by the respondents, including about the amount of information available about local news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11871 What percentage of your broadcasts would be devoted to local news, I mean pure news, excluding surveillance material?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11872 MR. SINGER: Mr. Commissioner, we are proposing eight hours of news and related surveillance. That does not include the weather, sports and traffic. Eight hours and 52 minutes, I am sorry, is our figure. Just about all of that would be local news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11873 COMMISSIONER MORIN: As a matter of fact, according to the calculations of the CRTC, news and surveillance would only total five hours and 32 minutes per broadcast week and not eight hours, 52 minutes, as you just said.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11874 Could you explain this discrepancy and how did you get your numbers?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11875 MR. SINGER: Our news figures, our total minutes are 152 minutes and 30 seconds of news alone. What does that work out to, Kevin?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11876 If you give me a minute, Mr. Commissioner, I would just like to ‑‑ we have 128 minutes of news, Monday through Friday; we have another 12 and a half minutes on Saturday; and we have another 12 and a half minutes on Sunday.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11877 I am really not sure how that ‑‑ I am sorry, I apologize for the further discrepancy, but if we could possibly file a break out of our calculations as soon as we are finished here today, if that would be allowable, Madam Chair, we would appreciate that opportunity to come back to you with that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11878 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, as long as you are confident you can file that before the start of Phase II.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11879 MR. SINGER: We will get to work on that as soon as we are done here this morning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11880 THE CHAIRPERSON: That would be great. You have a lunch break. Thanks.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11881 COMMISSIONER MORIN: As far as the news, sports information and programming is concerned, I understand that four full‑time employees will be involved. But I see, for example, that one person will be the News Director, reporter and announcer. So, how much time will this person spend gathering news, the local news, of which I understand the people of Kelowna are deprived?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11882 MR. SINGER: Our news staff, of course their first priority is the news department and the preparation of the newscasts. Our News Director, when I say News Director/reporter/announcer, means that that individual will not only direct the department, but will be in charge of going out covering stories and actually being on the air, most likely being the news reporter or news announcer on the morning show.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11883 The other positions, two news positions, would be handling other beats on the radio station in terms of shifts, going out and doing reporting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11884 We certainly feel that that is a strong contingent for a market this size and do believe that the resources are there to produce the news content that we have indicated.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11885 COMMISSIONER MORIN: Aren't you worried that these employees, and not just this one, aren't you worried that these employees won't have enough time to cover and gather the news, I mean the local news?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11886 MR. SINGER: We have similar commitments in our other radio stations with a contingency similar to this. Certainly it does at times provide challenges of being everywhere at all times, but I should also say that under our spoken word programming, we are developing a very all‑inclusive program of spoken word, which will involve many correspondents in terms of community correspondents as news contacts for our News Department and other areas, our Programming Department, who will all be, I guess, helping us to be more eyes and ears in the marketplace.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11887 I am not trying to imply that these are part of our hired staff, but it does make the job a bit easier because whether you have three news people or six news people, you have to look outside for some additional help. Without question, when you marry these resources and I guess the contacts that we hope to endeavour to develop within the new market, we certainly feel that, once again, we have the resources to deliver on our promise.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11888 COMMISSIONER MORIN: You project that in the first year you will get a 10 per cent share of the listenership. This percentage is projected to be 28 per cent by the end of the licence. What will happen if you only get 15 per cent?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11889 MR. SINGER: Mr. Commissioner, I don't think we would be here today if we were not up to the challenge of whatever lays ahead here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11890 I can assure you that we did not just quickly put this application together and we certainly put a lot of thought into the potential for operators such as ourselves.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11891 But I can tell you this that should we fall short of our expectations, we are here for the long term. Most definitely, Mr. Fabro and his family have indicated and shown to us over a period of many years the type of support that is behind our operations. We are well funded and we certainly have the belief that you have to be patient and grow your operations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11892 Gene, if you would like to comment further on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11893 MR. FABRO: Mr. Commissioner, my family, as we mentioned, we own Fabmar Investments Limited, which is a family‑owned holding company. The radio business, CJVR Limited, by gross revenue basis is about 5 per cent of our total annual income. So there is not a major concern for us if we were to miss the mark on what happens in Kelowna. We have the financial resources to support this as long as it takes to make it successful.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11894 That being said, I was just talking to Linda yesterday, and we find the top ten employees with us, the longest time maybe have got 19 years of experience on average, and diversified experience, good solid radio experience. So I don't think there is a problem with us coming into this market and adjusting to make the business plan work, notwithstanding I think we have an excellent business plan right now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11895 COMMISSIONER MORIN: I appreciate your answer, but I am just wondering about your share projection of 28 per cent by year seven.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11896 If you don't mind, could you clarify the methodology and assumptions that have been used to establish this number and those which have been forecasted before year seven?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11897 MR. SINGER: I will turn this over to Lang McGilp from Insightrix to comment further. We have been operating in this business for four decades and certainly believe in our format evaluations and the potential format in relationship to what is being offered in the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11898 We also understand that there is a tremendous amount of out‑of‑market tuning presently in this market. So, right off the get go, I guess, by filling a void as identified in our research, we hope to repatriate a fair amount of that listening.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11899 Having said that, I will ask Lang to comment on this further.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11900 MR. McGILP: Thank you, Ken, and thank you Mr. Commissioner.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11901 A variety of assumptions and estimations were made to develop market share estimates for CJVR with this proposed Country 96.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11902 In the first year, there is obviously an estimate that the size of the market will grow in terms of number of hours tuned. We have obviously conducted research that suggests that a large portion of people would be interested in listening more often to the radio if a new station was available, playing something that they like.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11903 In fact, 59 per cent of those over the age of 55 indicated that they would listen to the radio more often. So, that was definitely one element that factored into what sort of share there would be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11904 In terms of coming up with a 10 per cent originally estimated for the first year, we took a look at those that expressed strong interest with the montage of the Blended Country station that was played to them over the telephone. Those who said they would very much like the station as in rating it a 5 on a 1 to 5 scale, if they only spend 20 per cent of their time listening to that new station, which is a conservative estimate, and those who rated a 4, which show some level of interest obviously in that Blended station, if only 9 per cent of their time is spent listening to the new station, that comes out to, when you run the numbers, without getting into all those details, it comes out to a 10 per cent market share.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11905 For the subsequent years, a variety of increase in listenership due to the fiercely loyal listenership within that age range, as Mr. Sinclair has mentioned, was used to arrive at a gradual increase in market share.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11906 MR. SINGER: Mr. Commissioner, just further to that and very briefly, again because our target is a 45‑plus demographic, and that is clearly the fastest growing and most predominant portion of the marketplace, we feel also that in terms of our projected growth, if we continue to cater to the 45‑plus, we feel that there is a much greater opportunity for that growth as opposed to catering to the 18 to 34s that are being served by at least two of the four FM stations in the market now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11907 COMMISSIONER MORIN: My last question: Why do you believe that your format will provide the greatest degree of programming diversity and represent the best choice of format to serve the adult population of Kelowna?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11908 MR. SINGER: I can ask Mr. Sinclair, if you wish, Mr. Commissioner, to elaborate further on the musical component, but in a general way, let me say that our full service approach to serving this community with a radio station that provides not just a diverse musical mix with our Blended Country format, but also the very all encompassing spoken word elements, I feel are unique to the marketplace in terms of the broad range of spoken word and special programming we are intending to implement, and most definitely combine that with our CCD initiatives that are not just the cash, but the involvement in the community through those initiatives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11909 So, our mandate is to engage the local market and to involve them or act as a service to them in every possible way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11910 As far as the musical components, if you wish again to have Mr. Sinclair elaborate further on the diversities of those formats or of our two formats, I would be happy to turn it over to him.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11911 MR. SINCLAIR: Thanks, Ken.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11912 Commissioner Morin, the other thing I would just add into this in the market now, we have outlined the background of comparison between what the current country station in the market does right now in terms of being a Hot New Country station, we have talked about our target audience of 45‑plus and up into the 55‑plus demographic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11913 If you look at the spectrums of radio stations is in the market now, one of the factors that plays into our favour despite some of the changes that have happened recently is if you have two radio stations that have essentially abandoned the 45‑plus market already. One of those was an Oldies station that plays 50s and 60s music that became a News/Talk station recent weeks ago, and then the other stations we have talked about with Pattison CKOV, which essentially was a Soft Vocals radio station with bits of talk and information in there that abandoned that to go Hot Country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11914 Those two stations catered to the 45‑plus audience in the market, and they have disappeared.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11915 What you have now in the market is you have those two stations, one is a News/Talk, one is a young Country radio station and then you have a Rock station that spans a wide range, as we have heard from other applicants talk about, in the market now that caters to 12‑plus, which isn't a demographic really, is a family reunion.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11916 Then you have two Adult Contemporary stations that again start young and go into the upper end. But again they are getting audience in the marketplace more by accident than by design. So that upper echelon, that upper audience of 45‑plus presently has, outside of maybe the CBC, nothing to turn to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11917 I hope that helps.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11918 COMMISSIONER MORIN: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11919 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11920 Commissioner Williams.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11921 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good morning, Mr. Fabro and Mr. Singer and panellists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11922 Mr. Fabro and Mr. Singer, I will address these couple of questions to both of you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11923 Could you please give us your views as to the importance of small independent broadcasters to ensure the success of the Canadian broadcasting system, please? How important are small independent broadcasters in the Canadian broadcasting system?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11924 MR. SINGER: Thank you, Commissioner Williams.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11925 We obviously think they are very, very important or we wouldn't have been in front of you as many times as we have in the past two years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11926 Our industry has changed a tremendous amount in most markets, especially the smaller markets. Years ago there was quite a balance between the bigger players, which by comparison today, really maybe couldn't be called bigger players, but there were a fair amount of independents throughout the markets in our country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11927 Today, with all of the convergences and most recently we are seeing the very biggest getting even bigger, it is leaving very, very few smaller independent operators in the business. I think that has been pointed out on previous appearances at this hearing by the independents once again.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11928 Our feeling is that our type of locally focused community driven radio is still a unique aspect to the broadcasting system. We make our decisions on the ground here at home base. We most definitely believe in more of a one‑on‑one with our audience than perhaps some of the bigger operators do. Consequently, it takes a few more resources, but certainly we believe that that local element of radio that we have practised for 40 years is unique to the smaller players.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11929 We have to work a little harder to achieve a market status, but we feel we have the resources even though we are smaller.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11930 I guess, again, just looking at the change in our industry over the 40 years that I have been involved in this business, at times it is kind of frightening to think what is the next big takeover in terms of, when you look at the cable business as an example, the concentration of ownership in that field, is radio going that direction?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11931 I wonder, Gene, do you have something further to add to that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11932 MR. FABRO: Yes, I do, Mr. Commissioner, and Ken.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11933 Our coverage area, we think we have the largest FM coverage area in Canada. Our coverage area on our FM is 58,000 square kilometres. That is almost twice the size of Vancouver Island. That is huge.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11934 We service 125,000 people in over 100 tiny communities. When I go to the station, I am just truly amazed about the culture there and it is all about delivering what people want to hear in their own little tiny communities, whether the bus is running to get to school in the morning or the three hockey teams we cover or the U of S Huskies that are in our coverage area or at least we cover.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11935 It is truly amazing. Some of the sales staff will actually cover as on‑air staff when required. They will cover the local council meeting. They will do interviews with the Mayor. They will have what we call community salutes, where we actually do a salute to each community in our listening area. It is truly a different type of radio than what I believe the larger, national operators operate.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11936 They tend to do it more from an economic point of view. We do it from an economics point of view, but also from a love of the business. Trust me, you really have to listen to our stations to really get that feel of community driven.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11937 In addition to, like I mentioned earlier, because of the long history we have of the top ten people that run our stations, it is like a big city station in a small city market because we have excellent programming from the music perspective, but we have tremendous life blood of the community. It is in their veins. That is the type of thing that we can bring to this market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11938 Could you imagine if we bring the size of Vancouver Island, 125,000 people, come to Kelowna market, which is similar in size and this really concentrated area and deliver the same type of service? It would just truly be a tremendous thing for the community to bring the life and blood of Saskatchewan and Alberta into B.C. I think it would really make a difference. That is a long way around to say that is the difference from the big guys to the small guys.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11939 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, small independent broadcasters are very important to the Canadian broadcasting system?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11940 MR. FABRO: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11941 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How important is local ownership and the accountability that may come with that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11942 MR. FABRO: When you say local ownership, Mr. Commissioner, do you mean local as in local right here in the Valley, for example, or local as in western Canada?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11943 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think if you can answer both ways, that would be good, local as right in Yorkton, for example, and local as in western Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11944 MR. FABRO: I think western Canadians tend to have a different perspective. No slight against people from central Ontario or from the east coast, but we have a different perspective.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11945 My own personal view is we are a little bit more entrepreneurial.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11946 My father was in the coal mining business for his entire life. Him and his partner developed a coal mine in southeastern British Columbia. My uncle was in the radio business in Cranbrook. That is where we got our love of the business.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11947 We tend to understand the western aspect of the people out here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11948 I don't truly believe you have to be local in ownership, but I think you have to have a local understanding of what the market is doing and what is going on locally in the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11949 I guess the short answer is we are from the west. We understand the western ways in the fabric of the small western Canadian towns and I think Kelowna is one of those.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11950 MR. SINGER: Further to that, Commissioner Williams, I think as important as locally owned is locally engaged. I can assure you our style of radio, the ownership of CJVR is locally engaged.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11951 We are not proposing a radio station to be operated in Kelowna, but directed from our corporate hub, as many of the larger operators do. We will have a distinctive local staff here, program director, station manager, that, as mentioned earlier, will be making decisions that are best for Kelowna, not necessarily something that is going to fit well for all of our stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11952 Certainly there are synergies there, but it is not our intent to have a station here that is merely a wing of our other radio stations, if you know where I am going with that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11953 MR. FABRO: Can I just add something, Mr. Commissioner?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11954 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11955 MR. FABRO: My family is a history of entrepreneurs. As I mentioned, my father started with a coal mine and my brothers and sister all have had their own entrepreneurial business.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11956 When you are an entrepreneur, you have to deal with the big guy and the small guy as competitors. You have to be quick on your feet. You have to have the right people, capital, resources and longevity. You have to have enough staying power to make sure that the job gets done.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11957 As I mentioned earlier, our radio business is around 5 per cent of our total revenue for our holding company. So we are not afraid to play in the big markets with the big guys and we are not afraid to play with the Pattisons of this world in Kelowna or wherever we go. We know how to play and succeed in any market that we are in in any business.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11958 As a matter of fact, just to go on from there, about the Valley here, the Okanagan Valley, our development company, Sure Developments Limited, just yesterday signed a purchase and sale agreement to purchase some land in The Rise in Vernon. We believe in the Valley. We think there's a long‑term growth here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11959 We are going to look at Kelowna as perhaps a place to develop our condominiums. We are in discussions with a potential joint venture partner in Penticton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11960 In addition, the whole Valley here, as there are in places like Victoria and southern Ontario, are where the baby boomers are going to flock to. There is like 10 million baby boomers in the country, and they will probably inherit something like $1 trillion in the next 25 years. So there will be a lot of people flocking to the warm sections of the country, which the Okanagan is. And we think the growth will be tremendous here. If we are not here in the radio business, we will be here in the development business.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11961 We believe in this Valley and we believe in Kelowna.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11962 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mr. Singer, you used the phrase "locally engaged." Given that your company is not from Kelowna, what was the extent of your local consultation prior to submitting your application?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11963 MR. SINGER: Mr. Commissioner, Kevin and I visited the market quite some time ago at the call of the application. We walked the streets. We stopped and visited with people. We talked to local organizers and a broad range of community organizations, talked to retailers, average people in the market and certainly got a sense of their feelings about the market, the available choices on the radio dial and the future of the market in terms of their anticipated growth.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11964 Then we went into the field using Lang's company, Insightrix Research, to evaluate that further. Our early discussions were quite clear to us that there was a void here and, again, our broadcasting experience told us there was a void here when we looked at the various things that the radio stations were doing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11965 I would like to point out, too, that our early discussions with the community here, they were very complimentary to the services that are on the radio dial here in Kelowna, but just as importantly, they felt that Kelowna has grown to a size that it is time for more choices on the dial and, in particular, the older the person we talked to, the more they felt that way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11966 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you very much, Mr. Fabro and Mr. Singer. That concludes my questions, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11967 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11968 I have no doubt of your commitment not only to the medium but to the genre because during the audio clip I saw a few of your heads bopping to the music. I thought it was great.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11969 I want to understand fully your position in light of the new dynamic in the market, and that is of course the change in format that we have talked about.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11970 You filed your application prior to that change in format of the incumbent and, therefore, all of your projections were based, I am assuming, on you being the only Country station in the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11971 Is it your position that despite the format change that you will achieve the audience share that you had filed, that you will achieve, therefore, the revenue projections that you had filed and that, therefore, in other words the change in format of the incumbent will not have a material impact on your financial projections?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11972 MR. SINGER: We are confident that what we filed prior to the change by CKLV still stands today. The reason we feel that way, Madam Chair, is that we are focusing at a demographic that is underserved in the marketplace.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11973 Our research substantiated that a Blended Country format was what they preferred. Remember, we researched the market twice, once with a more Hot New Country mix and we weren't satisfied with what we heard there. It tested well and clearly at that time there was no other choice other than The Giant in Penticton for country music fans. So, it tested fairly well and it encouraged us that we should pursue Country, but we evaluated that research and said, gee, you know, it is not as strong as it should be and went back into the field with another sample of 400 and tested an actual montage more similar to what you heard here today, more of a blended mix and a broader range of eras, and clearly the 45‑plus and older demo indicated that is the one.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11974 With Pattison coming on stream and not doing that, we said, well, gee, that is a good thing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11975 Here is the other thing that has happened too which I think strengthens us holding the line on our original application is that with what has happened with Standard's AM station abandoning another music format for Talk, and that was an Oldies format that was appealing to a 45‑ and a 55‑plus demo in particular, so now people with a taste for that particular music have been left without a musical choice and because the Pattison AM station catered to a much older demographic than they are with their new FM, they have taken a 45‑plus demo and said, okay, now somebody else will have to cater to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11976 So, now we have two pods of audience here that have had some local radio interest that have now been sort of set aside for somebody else to target. Again, I go back to the balance in the market of the incumbent FM stations, the majority of them are now programming again to the 18 to 34s.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11977 So, yes, we feel that it is frustrating, yet that is the reality. We certainly respect that the Pattison Group change was well within the regulations, but we feel the end result at the end of the day is we still got a strong, strong alternative here and we can achieve those shares that we projected based on serving a very important and significant number of 45‑plus listeners in the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11978 MR. GEMMELL: Madam Chair, perhaps if I can just reinforce a little bit what Ken said and maybe refer you at some point to the interviews we did with the business community, we surveyed a dozen companies with Lang's company, and to quote, we would advertise on this station for demographic reasons, not for format reasons. Another quote that says I am not a big fan myself, but the music is popular and would give me the audience I am looking for.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11979 So, the clients that would generate the revenue that we stand behind would buy for the purpose of demographic, for the purpose of targeting, not for the purpose of I like the format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11980 THE CHAIRPERSON: On that note, as you know, there are ten applications before us this week and you are not the only ones targeting this ever growing demographic group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11981 So, if we were to licence you and licence somebody else, which of the other applicants before us would have the least impact and which would have the greatest impact?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11982 MR. SINGER: We certainly feel that, I agree there are others that are targeting the 45‑plus as well. The difference, however, is that the 45‑plus demo that we are targeting is more of an audience that I guess isn't listening to ‑‑ they are not finding the kind of radio they are looking for, where some of the 45‑plus applicants certainly will have an impact on the incumbents more so than ours will.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11983 So, we feel if you are going to licence two, perhaps you should be looking at the two ends of the spectrum, the CHUM CTV approach to a very young demographic, and we feel that that is another underserved element of the marketplace, the 12 to 34 demo in particular, that would have the least impact on us if you were to licence them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11984 On the other side of the spectrum, we feel that we should be the one to serve the 45‑plus demographic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11985 We also feel that the Northern Native Broadcasting would have the least impact as well on both the incumbents and on our particular. So I guess either CHUM CTV on the least end and of course we are going to put in our vote for Country 96.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11986 THE CHAIRPERSON: You wouldn't be sitting there if you didn't.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11987 MR. SINGER: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11988 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because this is a demographic group that is growing and will continue to grow from all projections, is there room for two services that will serve this demographic group, yours plus?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11989 MR. SINGER: Yes, in the 45‑plus. Well, I guess it would be hard to argue that there is an awful lot to serve there. I guess the answer to that is likely two operators could do that. But, again, I think that would have a greater impact on the incumbents to licence two for a 45‑plus target because right now what has happened, and it is always the case in a market that is underserved, is that the incumbents have an opportunity to be less focused and can win by default a much broader audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11990 Regardless of a one licence, two licence situation, there is going to be an impact initially on the incumbent broadcasters, but over the period of time, and as Kevin alluded to in his comparisons to what has happened in other markets with new licensing, every operator has an opportunity to refocus and become more focused and, again, it gets back down to what type of a resource are we offering to the retail community, because after all they pay the bills.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11991 So, by strengthening everyone's position with new competition, we all should be more effective in terms of our ability to derive advertising in the market and make it effective for our clients.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11992 THE CHAIRPERSON: So what is your recommendation to us as to the maximum number of services we should licence?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11993 MR. SINGER: I don't think it should be more than two of the mainstream formats. If you were to go beyond that, I would suggest you should consider one of the specialty or, as I say, the Northern Native Broadcasting group would be maybe the third option.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11994 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11995 Legal counsel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11996 MS LEHOUX: Thank you, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11997 MR. FABRO: Madam Chair, can I just add a couple more things that we didn't get questioned on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11998 I think it is important for the Commission to know that our family is in it for the long term. My three brothers and my sister and my father are long‑term holders. We don't buy and sell businesses. I mean, anything is for sale at the right price, right, but it is not what we do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11999 I see these flippers that come into the market just to play on licences. We are not doing that. We are here for the long term. I think it is important for you to know that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12000 Also important to know in our Melfort operations and in Whitecourt, we have invested heavily there. We haven't taken anything back. We have put more in. It is not all about the money and the return on investment either. Just recently we put a repeater in Carrot River because our engineer said there were some nulls there. We could have turned our back and said so what, it is a very small community, we get some funds out of there, but it is not going to be a short‑term pay back, but it was about the right thing to do in the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12001 That is the type of people we are. We are honest, hard‑working people. The people with CJVR, they are the same way. They wouldn't be around for 19 years on average, the top ten people unless they were with people that are straight shooters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12002 The short answer is we have been before you many times in the last two years. We know some of these other applicants have been here and received licences. We are honestly disappointed because we believe that we are everything that a broadcaster should be, and we are western Canadian. So, it is a bit of a tough thing to take, and the morale, my morale has been down, but certainly at the station it has been up because that is the type of people they are.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12003 If we are not successful here, we are going to be back again. We are going to either build or buy this operation. You will see us many times in the future. With that said, if you have any more questions we can answer them, otherwise I have a two‑minute summary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12004 THE CHAIRPERSON: Absolutely, and we look forward to seeing you again and again.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12005 But I will have to ask legal counsel to ask you just a couple more before I give you your two minutes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12006 MS LEHOUX: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12007 With respect to your CCD contributions, on page 10 of your oral presentation you said that you will make CCD contributions over the term of the licence of a minimum of $1 million. How much will you allocate to your over and above CCD contributions over the licence term, because you are aware that they don't fluctuate with the revenues so we need to what is the amount of your over and above CCD contributions?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12008 MR. SINGER: Over the basic amount is $953,298.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12009 MS LEHOUX: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12010 MR. SINGER: I hope I am answering that correctly. Our basic ‑‑ using the formula in the commercial policy, over the seven years comes to $46,702, and our total commitment of $1 million. So I am giving you the difference between our basic and the $1 million.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12011 MS LEHOUX: Okay. I just want to clarify because in your application you had $781,000 as the over and above.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12012 MR. SINGER: Yes, I am sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12013 MS LEHOUX: I just want to verify if you are not increasing ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12014 MR. SINGER: That is the difference, the $781,319 is the difference between our $1 million and the FACTOR. Is that the number you are looking for, then, because I am a little confused.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12015 MS LEHOUX: What I am looking for is your over and above contribution. We know that with respect to the over and above contribution, 20 per cent of that over and above has to go to FACTOR.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12016 MR. SINGER: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12017 MS LEHOUX: But I need to know the amount of the over and above, including the 20 per cent of the FACTOR. I just want confirmation of that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12018 MR. SINGER: I would be happy to file the actual spreadsheet that we have with those calculations, but our basic, based on our revenues of $16,690,328 over seven years, our revenues exceeding our $7,940,328, our basic is of course the thousand, and then the 5 per cent of that that is over $1.25 million is another 39.7. This is a lot of numbers, isn't it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12019 MS LEHOUX: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12020 MR. SINGER: Could I just file this with you? It has the calculations for our $1 million.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12021 MS LEHOUX: Absolutely. Thank you very much. That was the first thing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12022 The other thing is that you have undertaken to file a break out of the time devoted to news and surveillance material by the end of Phase I. For your guidance, when staff calculated the five hours and 32 minutes of the news and surveillance per broadcast week, they used your spoken word programming chart that you have submitted with your letter dated 5 of July. So that might help you to look at it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12023 MR. SINGER: Okay. I apologize. I have a spreadsheet and I don't have that in front of me right now. So we will file that promptly with you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12024 MS LEHOUX: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12025 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have your two minutes, Mr. Fabro.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12026 MR. FABRO: Madam Chair, CJVR is asking for your approval of our application because we feel it meets and serves the programming needs and listener preferences of Kelowna's underserved 45‑plus population and, in doing so, will maximize the utilization of the 96.3 frequency.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12027 If licensed, Country 96 will yield many significant benefits to the listening public, to local talent, the business community and Canada's broadcasting system. These benefits are well documented and discussed in full detail in our application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12028 Beyond the public benefits and the dynamic new FM programming service that Country 96 will bring to Kelowna and the Central Okanagan is CJVR's greater need for this licence to help our dedicated radio company grow and compete in today's challenging broadcasting environment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12029 CJVR represents 41 years of hard‑earned broadcast experience, a nationally acclaimed reputation for programming excellence, a development track record that is second to none, a corporate culture that embodies a deep‑rooted sense of community, and a motivated ownership committed to making a difference.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12030 Further to its broadcasting credentials, it is important to understand that CJVR is fully supported by, and has direct access to its parent company, Fabmar Investments Limited and Fabmar's business acumen and depth of financial resources.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12031 Fabmar's commitment to CJVR is reflected in an improvement and expansion of its Melfort and Whitecourt operations and in the significant investment of time, financial and human resources over the past two years in pursuit of the new broadcasting opportunities in various markets across western Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12032 In Kelowna we have once again funded a high quality application that will greatly enhance the local radio sector, bring competitive balance and a strong independent editorial voice to the market, add fresh programming and ownership diversity and provide a minimum of $1 million in direct CCD initiatives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12033 Madam Chair and Commissioners, CJVR has been poised for some time to grow its business and to play a larger role as a strong independent radio voice in western Canada. We have the expertise, the financial and human resources and the corporate will to succeed. We ask the Commission to believe in our ability to get the job done and we respectfully urge you to approve our application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12034 Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12035 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Fabro, thank you, and to your colleagues, thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12036 We will now take a 15‑minute break and come back at 11:10.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1056 / Suspension à 1056
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1115 / Reprise à 1115
LISTNUM 1 \l 12037 THE SECRETARY: Please be seated. We will now proceed with item 9, which is an application by In‑House Communications Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial specialty radio programming undertaking in Kelowna, British Columbia.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12038 The new station would operate on frequency 103.9, class 280C1 with an average effective radiated power of 3,600 watts, maximum effective radiated power 6,800, antenna height of 508 metres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12039 Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Pat Lough. Please introduce your colleague and you will have 20 minutes to make your presentation.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 12040 MR. PAT LOUGH: Good morning, Madam Chair, my name is Pat Lough, President of In‑House Communications. With me today is my wife and business partner Dulaine Lough.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12041 It is with great enthusiasm and excitement that we appear before you today to present our application for a new Christian music station to serve Kelowna. If licensed, 103.9 CHRV‑FM will truly complement the existing radio market with an appealing mix of Contemporary Christian music and Praise and Worship Music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12042 Our target audience will be adults age 18 to 54 and our station will be sensitive to the entire family audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12043 Our application for CHRV was submitted in 2004 after recognizing a strong support for a Christian‑based station in the Okanagan. Although we reluctantly withdrew our application in 2005 at the request of the Commission, support for our station has continued to grow. To date, over 1800 individuals have publicly expressed their support for our station through petitions and letters of support.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12044 In addition, nearly 60 businesses wrote letters in support of our application, many expressing their interest in being first‑time advertisers on our niche focused Christian station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12045 The introduction of CHRV will provide a fresh and unique perspective on local news and information, and will increase the diversity of the music choices in the Okanagan. With two major broadcasters owning all of the radio stations in the Valley, now totally 25 frequencies, a diversity of voice is now even more necessary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12046 As there is no Christian music available on the airwaves in the Okanagan, many listeners turn to satellite radio or to the internet in search of Christian music. If they continue to do so, we will lose an irreplaceable opportunity to promote Canadian music and will lose the opportunity to showcase local talent and emerging artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12047 Canadian music will be prominently featured in our programming. We will commit to a full 15 per cent Canadian content and will ensure significant airplay of near Canadian music. Fifty per cent of our Canadian songs will be released in the year 2000 or later.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12048 MR. DULAINE LOUGH: Madam Chair, Commissioners, CRTC staff, In‑House Communications is the only applicant committed to moving our family and entire business operations to the market that we will be licensed to serve. As a result, CHRV will be the only station in the Okanagan that will be 100 per cent locally owned and operated.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12049 Being locally owned and living in the community, we will have greater ability to see the needs of the community than if we were owned and managed from another market. Our kids will attend local schools and will play on local sports teams, and our family will be active participants of Kelowna's church community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12050 Letters received in support of our application and results from our marketing survey indicated that residents would much prefer their new radio station to be local and to have ownership in the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12051 With a higher than average Christian population and a growing number of younger families moving into the area, the Okanagan is ready to embrace our positive family‑safe format. Many in the 55 years and older age category will appreciate southern gospel music which we will play on the weekends.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12052 Kelowna is B.C.'s fastest growing city. Now a market of 162,000 people, Kelowna experienced an incredible growth rate of 8.2 per cent from 1996 to 2001 and an additional 9.8 per cent from 2001 to 2006.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12053 The city has seen a population increase of 25,000 people or 19 per cent since the last time a new station was licensed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12054 Kelowna is experiencing economic growth at a healthy sustainable rate and major retailers with significant budgets are also seeing the economic advantage of being located in Kelowna. Major employers such as Home Depot, Wal‑Mart and Superstore have all realized the benefit of doing business in this great city.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12055 MR. PAT LOUGH: In the 1999 hearing, Nick Frost, then owner of CILK‑FM, when referencing his marketing research, said with a little help from the church community, Christian music choice went through the roof. Clearly in 1999 there was a strong preference for a new Christian music station, although the applicant submitted a county music application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12056 The idea of Christian radio in Kelowna has been a hope and desire for many people since the 1999 survey. Three Christian radio applications in 2004, along with an additional one this year, confirms this community desires a Christian station. Many hours that we spent in the community promoting our application has resulted in a significant amount of support from the residents and potential advertisers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12057 Potential advertisers reveal that they aren't currently advertising on radio for a variety of reasons. Yet, they would strongly consider advertising on CHRV, should our family‑safe format be licensed. Many of Kelowna's 132 churches also indicated that they would like to advertise their activities to the greater church community. Equally as important, some of those churches indicated that they would continue to run their advertising campaigns on mainstream stations, as that effectively achieves a specific marketing goal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12058 In CRTC Decision 2005‑87 and 2006‑127, CILK‑FM and Pattison Broadcasting both indicated support for the notion of a Christian station, and they indicated that a Christian station could complement the market quite well. However, for both applications these broadcasters expressed great concern over the licensing of an LPFM station and emphasized the lack of support that the applicants demonstrated with their applications. Comments recently made by Pattison Broadcasting confirmed once again that they would prefer to have a new licensee be a niche‑focused station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12059 In our original application, and this one today, we have addressed the concerns of the incumbent broadcasters by applying for a high‑powered station and by garnering the support of the community with nearly 1900 individuals and businesses publicly expressing their support for our application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12060 MR. DULAINE LOUGH: CHRV is about diversity; diversity in ownership, diversity in CCD initiatives, diversity in advertisers and diversity in programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12061 Obviously, In‑House Communications will be a new entrant into the radio market. We will, therefore, add a diversity of voice and ownership by our very presence. We believe that this diversity is important, as it ensures that the radio market be reflective of the incredible diversity of our Canadian culture. Furthermore, we will bring a new voice to the Christian music format, offering balance and perspective among Christian broadcasters in western Canadian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12062 We have proposed a broad‑based Christian music station to ensure we effectively serve a wide range of musical interests and preferences. Survey respondents indicated that they want a station that plays a greater variety and not just the hits. We have intentionally included youth programming in the evening when the older generation tunes into the talk radio in Penticton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12063 Because we believe in Canadian artists and we want to see the Christian music industry grow and develop, we have committed to a full 15 per cent of Canadian content as a minimum.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12064 When we go to air, we will have a live breakfast show running from 6:00 a.m. to 9:00 a.m., a live afternoon drive from 3:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m. and a live evening program from 7:00 to 10:00 p.m., totalling nine hours a day of live‑to‑air programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12065 In the mid‑day time slot, not including our locally produced newscasts at 12 noon and 1:00 p.m., we may utilize services from Golden West Broadcasting to offer more diversity. This relationship with Golden West will help us get on our feet as new broadcasters. We wanted to use a Canadian source for programming instead of using an American‑based satellite feed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12066 On Saturday, our station will be live‑to‑air from 8:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12067 Totally Canadian will be a pre‑recorded 60‑minute weekly program focusing entirely on Canadian artists and will be placed on Sunday nights at 5:00 p.m. We will have an on‑air promotion of this unique and exciting program throughout the week to encourage our listeners to tune in. Other locally produced feature programs include Gospel in the Valley, A Retro Sunday Night, Let Us Worship, Sunday Praise, Sunday Gospel and Kelowna This Week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12068 MR. PAT LOUGH: Our spoken word will reflect Kelowna's diversity and will provide listeners with a balance of news, entertainment and community information. Content is king for a new radio station in Kelowna. CHRV focuses on the need for strong, local programming that is safe for all members of the family.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12069 Content starts with on‑air talent, but it does not end there. CHRV will look to all members of our team to contribute creative ideas, production segments, and voice‑over bits with the host, but behind the scenes. Utilizing our diverse support staff will help us achieve a strong commitment to local content and will allow us to go to air with qualify programming right from day one.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12070 Our spoken word programming is what clearly will differentiate us from American broadcasters streaming on the internet. Noticeably absent from our programming schedule is American‑style talk programming. This content is currently available on other stations in the Okanagan, and we don't feel the need to duplicate. These are concerns echoed by the incumbent broadcasters and we want to be sensitive to their programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12071 Furthermore, when we commissioned our survey, we specifically asked our potential audience if they listen to Christian talk programming on 100.7 FM The Giant out of Penticton. Many respondents said that they either seldom or never listen to the existing talk programming. However, in our deficiency letter dated August 13, 2007 we made a commitment to balanced programming should we air more than ten hours of religious talk programs, such as Focus on the Family, Insight for Living, et cetera.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12072 Our spoken word commitment is 15 per cent, totalling 19 hours per week. Spoken word includes normal DJ commentaries and local reflection, a music calendar highlighting upcoming concerts and a community calendar. Crime stopper reports, stock market and business reports, agriculture reports, ski reports, public service announcements and various charity initiatives are all included in our spoken word commitment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12073 Spoken word also includes various forms of listener input. DJs will be encouraged to incorporate listeners' calls into their programs. This listener interaction will provide a local perspective and encourage a dialogue between listeners on air.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12074 Another source of spoken word will come from our listener feedback line which will provide our audience an opportunity to leave messages and commentary on a variety of subjects. These messages will then be produced and scheduled as on‑air programming content, covering topics like the possibility of a teacher's strike, input for an upcoming city hall decision, or local reaction to a provincial candidates' debate. This interactivity will also be carried through our website, generating an enhanced level of input and participation from our listeners.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12075 Topics raised on the listener feedback line will allow us an opportunity to go deeper with our talk program, Kelowna This Week. Kelowna This Week will be a local program looking at current events from our listeners' perspective. Guests on this program may be the local Member of Parliament, Provincial Health Minister, or a city planner. The intention is to engage our audience and solicit this input. Kelowna This Week will attract a slightly different audience, as it will air Saturday mornings from 8:00 to 9:00 a.m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12076 MR. DULAINE LOUGH: Our station will establish itself as an important source of local news and information. Our news will always have our target audience in mind. With CHRV being our first radio station, we can focus exclusively on content that is relevant and unique to the Okanagan. CHRV will have 71 newscasts totalling 320 minutes of news each week as a minimum.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12077 Our news team will have five part‑time reporters. Seventy‑five per cent of our news coverage will be local; the remaining 25 per cent will be national and international. One key component of our news coverage is to deliver breaking news that will extend through CHRV insiders, our e‑mail distribution list. We recognize that a number of our listeners may not be able to listen to the radio when they are at work or out of our coverage area. Tying our News Department directly to our e‑mail distribution list will keep people informed and enhance our listeners' experience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12078 As a station that invites family listenership, we will make every effort to be sensitive to our audience. We want to be sure that parents can listen to the news on our station without their children potentially being frightened by our news content. We will try, when possible, to give a positive human‑interest element to our news items.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12079 Although it is expected that PBIT will take a hit when a new mainstream format is licensed in a community, it is often minimized when a Christian station is licensed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12080 Christian broadcasters that we have talked to testify that they have had little impact on mainstream broadcasters in their respective markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12081 Our potential advertisers have admitted that they don't currently advertise on the radio because they are unable to reach their intended audience. Because of our niche‑focused format, we will introduce new advertisers to Kelowna's radio market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12082 The average 2006 PBIT for Kelowna's stations is almost 12 per cent. Recent ownership changes and the CKOV flip will have a very positive impact on Kelowna's PBIT as it continues to move forward.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12083 By building a bridge with Golden West Broadcasting, one of western Canada's larger broadcasters, we have created an opportunity for some of their national advertisers to advertise in the Okanagan. We would like to point out that Golden West has two successful Christian radio stations in their large family of mainstream stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12084 There are many ways that a station can support Canadian artists, most notably through air play, SOCAN fees and CCD commitments. We are confident that our initiatives not only exceed the requirements identified by the CAB, but they are also focused on the community that we will be serving.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12085 Our CCD initiatives are substantial for a Christian broadcaster and are intended to find and support talent right here in the Okanagan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12086 Our investment totalling $35,000 in direct and $70,000 of indirect support will go a long way in supporting the under‑financed Christian music industry over this seven‑year licence term. To ensure that monies are spent in compliance with the directives of the Commission, all of our prizes will be in the form of bursaries for recording time in a local recording studio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12087 We believe that our CCD ratio is well laid out. Outside of the required FACTOR contribution, we are proposing nearly $1,000 or 20 per cent of our funding to go towards the Gospel Music Association of Canada. As GMA Canada members, we have proposed that this money go towards a songwriters' competition. The other $4,000 or 80 per cent will be spent on artist development right here in the Okanagan. Everyone wants to see his or her home town talent do well on a national or international scale. Our plan is designed to find and support local talent through airplay, promotions, and sponsorship, and to champion the local talent onto the national scale.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12088 In efforts to offer further diversity in the community, CHRV has proposed to donate some acquired equipment to help the development of an Aboriginal Voices Radio presence in the Okanagan. We talked about the AVRN repeater in our brief, and have the full support of the AVRN network. Currently, the Okanagan is not on the list of proposed AVRN sites, so our initiative will be outside the scope of AVRN's current plans.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12089 MR. PAT LOUGH: In‑House Communications is excited to bring a unique Christian radio station to Kelowna. As you know, we have been in dialogue with the community and believe the Okanagan greatly desires an uplifting music choice. It is our belief that listeners want a local voice which we will be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12090 Our music will be the heart beat of our station. It will be positive, uplifting and will bring more listeners to the local radio market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12091 We have made every effort to see to it that the Christian community gets a new station by proposing a format that is diverse, as diverse as the Christian community itself. We have also proposed 15 per cent Canadian content because we believe that there is quality music in a variety of genres to meet this amount. Our CCD initiatives will be focused mainly in the Okanagan, as we believe there is talent in the region that begs to be found.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12092 Our newscasts will be as family sensitive as the rest of our programming, focusing on local news, sports, traffic and weather. We are pleased to include community events, seasonal reports, and local charity spots as part of our radio broadcasts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12093 In conclusion we are proposing to offer Kelowna area listeners their very own local destination for Christian music. They deserve it. No other format provides as many loyal listeners as a Christian‑based radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12094 We want to thank you for your time and are glad to entertain any questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12095 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. and Mrs. Lough. I do have some questions for you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12096 I am going to start with the nature of this radio station that you are proposing, so I want to make sure that I have it clear. Obviously I just heard your oral presentation, I have read your response of August 10th, I believe it is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12097 So, right now, your position is the way in which you have programmed this radio station, you do not consider it to fall under the Religious Broadcasting Policy. Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12098 MR. PAT LOUGH: That is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12099 THE CHAIRPERSON: And that you, however, say if we decide that we do need to have more spoken word programming, I think you say up to ten hours, of that type of programming that would move you over into being a religious broadcaster, you would then accept the condition of licence that you would have to provide balanced programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12100 MR. PAT LOUGH: That is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12101 THE CHAIRPERSON: What factors would you take into consideration in deciding whether or not to include those ten hours of religious programming because from your response you say there is enough of it in this market from out‑of‑market radio stations and you don't feel that the Kelowna market needs more religious spoken word programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12102 MR. PAT LOUGH: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12103 THE CHAIRPERSON: But what would change your mind?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12104 MR. PAT LOUGH: Currently there is 21 hours a week of Christian talk programming coming out of The Giant. There is an additional I think it is one or two hours on the local AM station here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12105 So, what would cause us to change our view of not airing any Christian talk? Later on in this hearing you are going to hear the acquisition proposal by Pattison Broadcasting. Whenever there is a change of leadership or ownership, changes happen, and that is part of that process. We don't want to see Pattison drop that programming. It serves a good need. It also allows us to be a little more diverse in our programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12106 We have indicated our evening programming, we are going youth. The Commission recognizes that youth are not tuning to the radio market, so we don't want to have to, I guess, pursue talk programming that has historically been in the market. However, we recognize that may happen. If it does, then we will obviously provide some Christian talk programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12107 THE CHAIRPERSON: And come back to us and ask for an amendment to your licence or actually a change in your licence to one of being a religious broadcaster?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12108 MR. PAT LOUGH: Well, I don't believe airing ten hours makes you a religious broadcaster. I think going significantly beyond that, maybe then you fall into that category. That is why we picked the ten hours threshold. There is a lot of Christian broadcasters that are not labelling themselves as religious broadcasters and they air Christian talk programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12109 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think your position is clear on that. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12110 Is there one format of music that will be featured on this radio station over any of the others?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12111 MR. PAT LOUGH: The bulk of our programming will be a blend of Contemporary Christian music and Praise and Worship. Of the bulk of that programming, probably a little more like 60 per cent of that will be more the CCM format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12112 So, we recognize that Kelowna is different than Calgary. It is different than Vancouver. Vancouver, the Christian radio station there is Praise and Worship. It has a very loyal following.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12113 A lot of our survey participants referenced Praise 106. So we know there is a need there to provide the praise and worship music. But we also want to incorporate the Contemporary Christian music because that is definitely where we see a lot more of the emerging artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12114 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because in your application you do say that your target audience is 18 to 54. I am going to use the phrase again that I used earlier in these proceedings: You are casting a wide net. That is a large demographic group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12115 MR. PAT LOUGH: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12116 THE CHAIRPERSON: How is an 18 year old going to relate to your radio station as much as a 54 year old would?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12117 MR. PAT LOUGH: We have proposed block programming. When the older generation is tuning to The Giant, we are doing youth programming. That is definitely a block programming within a day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12118 The older generation will be satisfied more so on the weekends with southern gospel music. We have a couple southern gospel programs. More Praise and Worship I think we will be airing on the weekend. Mid day will be more Praise and Worship/Contemporary split.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12119 Our morning and afternoon drive times, though, we have anticipated being mostly Contemporary Christian music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12120 So, we do have some block programming. We have some blended programming as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12121 THE CHAIRPERSON: You may have been here in the room when we talked with Touch Canada and if you weren't, I am sure you read their application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12122 Have you done an analysis on what are the similarities and the differences between your application and theirs?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12123 MR. PAT LOUGH: I guess that is the advantage of being number 9, right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12124 First of all, our applications are similar. First of all, we are proposing the Contemporary Christian music. They are proposing the Contemporary Christian music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12125 Secondly, we are proposing a number of the same syndicated programs that they are proposing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12126 But apart from that, we will then be significantly different. Our research told us that a successful Kelowna station will need to air a significant amount of praise and worship as well. Looking at the presentation yesterday for Touch Canada, the video, I didn't see a lot of demonstration of praise and worship music in what they were presenting there. I know they have a great program, Power Praise Sunday mornings in Calgary and Edmonton and probably Grande Prairie, but I think Kelowna is different.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12127 I think with the older demographic, that requires a broadcaster to be a little bit different than how it operates in other centres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12128 So, we are not proposing a Hot AC format which is what we see in Calgary and Edmonton. Therefore, we won't be a repetitive station. We will have a quality local news team. We won't be relying on a news service. We are going to be locally owned and operated. That means we are going to live in the community. We are going to be part of the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12129 If we see a need arise to the school system or the health system, it is a lot easier for us to have empathy and jump on board.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12130 We are going to have more local input through our listener line, through Kelowna This Week. Touch Canada has not proposed any call‑in program. We have. Our call‑in program is not a religious program. That is not the intention of that. It is to give our listeners perspective on what they are hearing coming out of Ottawa or Victoria or here in Kelowna.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12131 I think because of the older demographic here, we are going to have probably a little bit older personalities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12132 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have mentioned older demographic a couple of times. Are you, therefore, targeting the older part of that 18 to 54 demographic that we talked about earlier? I guess specifically the question is: What is the median age of your average listener?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12133 MR. PAT LOUGH: We are targeting 35 year olds. We are our target is kind of what we view. We do recognize that some of our letters said, you know what, I am not going to listen to your station, but I want you to get the licence because my daughter or my son will.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12134 THE CHAIRPERSON: And you believe that this will be equally appealing to both men and women or do you think it will skew male or female?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12135 MR. PAT LOUGH: Christian music definitely skews more female, yes. We have proposed our Kelowna Today. I think that will actually attract probably a little more male audience than we normally will have throughout the week. Southern Gospel might be a little more of an even split. But I think the Contemporary Christian during the day will definitely be females.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12136 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could we licence both you and Touch and would you both be able to survive in this market?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12137 MR. PAT LOUGH: I think that is a fair question. I look at the decisions over the last three years, and I say, there has been no licences given to any of the proposed Christian stations. I think it would be difficult to licence two Christian stations now. Had one of the licences been granted in 2003, 2004, and then another one come along today, that could be radically different.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12138 But to propose two stations really offering the same format, I think that is tough, unless there is a commitment from one to go totally youth and the other one to go more towards the older generation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12139 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now we get into numbers which is always the fun part. We are going to start with your commitment to CDD. You did again confirm in your oral presentation that it is $35,000 over seven years I believe it is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12140 MR. PAT LOUGH: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12141 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of that $35,000 or $5,000 annually, what is the over and above amount to which you are committing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12142 MR. PAT LOUGH: I think we identified the over and above is the $5,000. Actually, I think it was $4500.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12143 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have your financial projections here. When I look at the CCD, it is $5,000 a year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12144 MR. PAT LOUGH: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12145 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is the over and above amount?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12146 MR. PAT LOUGH: Yes. Our discussion, after a change of analysts at the CRTC, our discussion was we needed to identify the over and above amount. We initially were at $4500. I think we bumped that up to about $5,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12147 THE CHAIRPERSON: If that is your over and above amount, do you recognize that you have to also make a base contribution?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12148 MR. PAT LOUGH: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12149 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can you therefore file amended financial projections to reflect both your base contribution and your $5,000 over and above?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12150 MR. PAT LOUGH: Yes, we will do that today.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12151 THE CHAIRPERSON: And you can file that today?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12152 MR. PAT LOUGH: You bet.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12153 THE CHAIRPERSON: Terrific. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12154 Your audience share projections, again, we looked at other similar radio stations in other markets, and your audience share projections seem to be a bit higher than what other Christian radio stations are garnering in other markets. Can you tell me what factors went into coming up with the share projections that you have in this application?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12155 MR. PAT LOUGH: Right. We had an audience share of 4.8 per cent, I believe. That might be a little bit higher ‑‑ it is definitely higher than the format in Calgary, which I believe BBM, when they were rated, was 1.9 per cent or thereabouts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12156 We recognize, though, that there is strong demand for our station. Kelowna we see as a bible belt as well. There is good awareness of our station. We didn't throw our application in as a response to a call. Our application has been going since 2004. We started in 2003.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12157 We actually had a lot of people say, you know, we thought you were dead in the water given that we haven't heard anything beyond that. So, it is nice to see e‑mails come into my screen saying what is up, where is CHRV? So, we have had a presence in the Okanagan for three years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12158 That definitely helps us realize that a market share of 4.8 per cent is realistic. Also with the fact that there is only five stations here. Calgary it is difficult to get anything substantial when you have got 12 or 14 radio stations. Everyone is going to have a small piece of the pie.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12159 THE CHAIRPERSON: But there is only five today. Who knows by the end of this week?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12160 Along the same lines, your revenue projections and in particular your national advertising revenue projections, they seem to be a little bit higher than most other radio stations in this category.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12161 Again, have you identified national advertisers that want to advertise?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12162 MR. PAT LOUGH: With national advertising, our understanding is that is anything from outside of the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12163 So, institutions in Calgary like Rocky Mountain College, a college that I have been part of for the last ten years, it would be considered as a national advertiser for us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12164 Ambrose University college, also a bible college in Calgary, would be considered national.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12165 We have some Vancouver potential advertisers that really their market is the church market. They sell audiovisual equipment, they sell tapes, CD, all that kind of stuff to the church market. Audiovisual companies, that is their target audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12166 So, we recognize that $70,000 a year might be a little bit high, but we also are realistic in that Christian business people in Kelowna do also have franchises, whether it is a local Tim Hortons, a local Subway or whatever, and those franchises do have national advertising campaigns. They may have a small amount available for local advertising, but they also have the resources of the national.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12167 In our brief we indicated that the national advertisers will be slow to come, we recognize that, but we also recognize the strength that we have in networking with Golden West Broadcasting. They have 32 stations. They have got two high‑quality Christian stations. Those stations receive a benefit from the network, from the Golden West network.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12168 I think by us taking a little bit of programming from them, there is a spinoff, right. They can sell advertising. We will make it attractive to them to sell advertising or whatever. But we see that as another potential stream for our national revenue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12169 THE CHAIRPERSON: Make it attractive for Golden West to sell advertising in your programs?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12170 MR. PAT LOUGH: Right, on our station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12171 THE CHAIRPERSON: Will this be brokered programming from Golden West; in other words, they will keep some commercial time?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12172 MR. PAT LOUGH: Let me clarify that. The proposed voice tracking that we have from Golden West would be strictly done each day with current events and all that kind of stuff. That would be strictly voice tracking for the normal mix of music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12173 But I think we can also go to Golden West and say, you know what, we would pay CMS or we would pay other national advertising agencies a commission. To me that is totally fair to offer them a commission if they are going to promote our station with their two Christian stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12174 THE CHAIRPERSON: Have you had these discussions with Golden West?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12175 MR. PAT LOUGH: The discussions that we have had, we received letter from them and we have talked with Elmer, a willingness to work together, to train, to offer programming. We see another component, though. Here is a station that you can market with CHVN and CKVN. So, we have not had those official discussions, no, we haven't.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12176 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because, of course, your share projections, your revenue projections all lead to the impact that you will have on incumbents. I note in your projections that you project 1 per cent of advertising to come from existing radio stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12177 MR. PAT LOUGH: Correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12178 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am finding a little bit of an imbalance there in the sense that your share audience projections are a bit high compared to other radio stations that offer the same kind of programming, especially your national revenues are a bit high.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12179 MR. PAT LOUGH: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12180 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, how can you say that only 1 per cent of your revenues will come from existing radio stations in the market?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12181 MR. PAT LOUGH: Well, there is one Christian broadcaster in B.C., in the northern part of the province. In discussing with other broadcasters, they have acknowledged that really they have no impact on the incumbents in their market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12182 The Christian advertiser we see would be the family‑owned business, some church advertising, but generally new business, people that have said we can't afford to advertise on CILK‑FM. So, I think the amount of business ‑‑ I don't see us taking business from Standard or Pattison.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12183 I see the bulk of our existing broadcasters coming to us by expanding their budgets saying that, you know what, we recognize that Kelowna has a very strong and vibrant church community; we have a very successful campaign on CILK but, however, we will give the new kid on a block a chance, and if they can bring us a very defined audience, a family‑centred audience, and if they know what they are buying, then I think the expanding of the budget is by far how we are going to get our growth, that and the new business.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12184 THE CHAIRPERSON: You would prefer if we didn't licence you and Touch. How many commercial FM radio stations do you think the Kelowna market can sustain, in addition to yours, if you are licensed?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12185 MR. PAT LOUGH: Again, I refer to the decisions of the past, 2004 and 2006 or 2005, 2006. There was a real hesitancy on allowing a niche‑focused station into the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12186 Have things changed that much that would allow more than one applicant? I don't know. Our format is very niche‑focused. I think the market can probably handle a mainstream format and us. I don't see the mainstream format in competition with us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12187 I would actually see the proposed Jazz station to be more competition with us than a Classic Hits Rock station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12188 THE CHAIRPERSON: And that is more because of the target demographic group as opposed to the actual format?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12189 MR. PAT LOUGH: Exactly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12190 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I have all my answers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12191 My colleagues?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12192 Legal counsel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12193 MS LEHOUX: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12194 Attached with your oral presentation, we have a market survey. Was that filed with your original application?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12195 MR. PAT LOUGH: The market survey was actually filed in response to an intervention by Standard Radio. That was around October 5th.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12196 MS LEHOUX: Who did that market survey?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12197 MR. PAT LOUGH: That was done by myself. It was using an on‑line web service where we notified our supporters from the last three years and said, you know what, our application is now in competition, we need more marketing information, please take the time to do the survey.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12198 MS LEHOUX: What I suggest is that we will check the public record because for the moment we don't see it on the public record.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12199 MR. PAT LOUGH: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12200 MS LEHOUX: We might have more questions in Phase IV with respect to that survey. Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12201 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. Lough, you have your two minutes to conclude your application and tell us why you are the best applicant for this market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12202 MR. PAT LOUGH: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12203 Our application has demonstrated strong support for Canadian artists, both financially and through station‑oriented music programs, which have been strategically placed in prime listening periods.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12204 The last three years our journey to get a licence in the Okanagan, we have built bridges with the incumbent broadcasters. We have been up front and open about our application and met with both Pattison Broadcasting and Standard Radio. I believe that our openness has resulted in very little negative comments made about our application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12205 It is important to point out that upon notification of a favourable decision for CHRV‑FM, we will engage our engineer to design a repeater for the Salmon Arm/Shuswap area. We have had an incredible amount of support from this area and we feel that they are a valuable part of our listening audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12206 Our application not only represents diversity of news and music, but it also represents a balance in western Canada's Christian radio industry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12207 Touch Canada and ourselves have submitted applications for the same type of station, but our viewpoint will be afresh and our music will be more diverse, reaching out to a wider audience. We have also sought to keep our CCD initiatives local in the Okanagan to encourage the local Christian music scene.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12208 If you are hesitant to give a licence to a new entrant, let us assure you that although we have not been granted a radio licence, we are not new to broadcasting. I have been researching radio and the CRTC for a good ten years. We have been doing our own independent research in our present Christian radio market, asking people in our target demographic why they do or why they don't listen to local Christian stations, getting feedback on how we can improve our Christian station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12209 Dulaine and I have experience in successful business ownership and valuable experience in managing staff. We have been invited to an established successful Christian radio station to give valuable in‑station training. Furthermore, we are passionate about radio and faithful listeners to many genres of Christian music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12210 To make all this just a bit better, we will do it well because we are our target demographic. We are not looking for our third or our fifth licence. We are looking for our very first. Every successful station in this room once came before you and asked for a licence. We now believe it is our turn. We are here for the long term. We have worked hard on this application for the last four years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12211 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. and Mrs. Lough, thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12212 We will now break for lunch. We will be back at 1:00 o'clock.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1200 / Suspension à 1200
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1300 / Reprise à 1300
LISTNUM 1 \l 12213 THE CHAIRPERSON: First of all, our apologies for our tardiness. We had a little restaurant challenge for lunch, but we will know better for tomorrow.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12214 I do have a couple of housekeeping announcements before we got on to the next applicant, and just for the sake of timing to let you know that we will continue with the next two applicants, followed by Phase II of the hearing, and to that end, I would ask any of the applicants who wish to appears in Phase II to indicate such desire to Madam Secretary during the afternoon break so that we know how many of you are intending on appearing in Phase II.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12215 We will then finish the day with the intervenors, the panel in support of the Vista application, the panel in support of Sun Country and the panel in support of Harvard, after which we will adjourn for the day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12216 Thank you. Any questions you can ask our Hearing Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12217 Madam Secretary
LISTNUM 1 \l 12218 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12219 We will now proceed with item 10, which is an application by Deep Waters Media Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Kelowna and the Central Okanagan region, British Columbia.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12220 The new station would operate on frequency 102.3 megahertz, channel 272B, with an average effective radiated power of 7,100 watts, maximum effective radiated power of 20,000 watts, antenna height of minus 89 metres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12221 Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Pat Bohn. Please introduce your colleagues, and you will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 12222 MR. BOHN: Madam Chair, members of the Commission, Commission staff, my name is Pat Bohn and I am President of Deep Water Media. I am also President of Bohn & Associates, a company that provides consulting services to radio stations across Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12223 On my right is my operations manager, Hillary Hommy. Let me make a confession right off the top. Although I am President, actually Hillary runs the company ‑‑ we all report to her. Hillary is one who makes sure that the rest of us get everything done, and that it gets done right. For this application, she played a particularly important role in putting together all aspects of our plans for Canadian content development. She is also behind our green commitment towards helping protect the environment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12224 On my left is in fact my right‑hand man, Arnie Celsie. Arnie is the senior consultant at Bohn & Associates, and he and I have worked together for more than 15 years. While I feel I know a lot about programming, Arnie is the true guru in this regard. Arnie was the inspiration behind most of the programming plans for this application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12225 Beside Arnie is Stephanie Friedman. Stephanie is the General Manager of BDS Radio Canada. BDS provides off‑the‑air music recognition for the record and the radio industries.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12226 Behind me on my right, your left, is Noel Wentworth. Noel is a lifelong resident of Kelowna. He is a singer, songwriter and musician who has recorded two CDs and he has been recognized by Billboard magazine for his song writing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12227 He also operates the Wentworth Music Education Centre here in Kelowna, which offers classes and lessons to over 300 aspiring musicians. Noel will oversee our Rising Star Initiative, if this application is approved.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12228 Beside Noel is Pam Leyland. Pam is the President of Rawlco Radio. For years I have been a great admirer of Rawlco and the way they operate their radio stations and serve their communities. When I first had the idea of applying for a radio station in Kelowna, I approached Gordon Rawlinson and I was very pleased when he agreed to come in as a minority investor.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12229 Beside Pam is Andrew Forsyth. Andrew has been a radio consultant with us for more than ten years. For this application, Andrew was particularly involved in the research component.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12230 Madam Chair, I have been working in the radio business for over 30 years, but this is a first for me. It is the first time that I have appeared before the Commission with an application to own and operate my own radio station. For most of those 30 years, I have been advising other radio owners and operators on how to improve their stations and make them more successful. Now, today, I am asking for the opportunity to show you that I can do for myself what I have been telling others to do, and create a really original and successful FM radio station here in Kelowna.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12231 It is no accident that this application is for Kelowna. I love this city. I first started coming here in 1989, consulting to Nick Frost when he owned CILK‑FM. The relationship ended in 2003, but my special relationship with Kelowna didn't.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12232 We started coming here in the summer. The lake, the agriculture and the great outdoors make Kelowna a wonderful destination. Last year, we took the final step and purchased a home here in the city. Kelowna now feels like home.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12233 MR. CELSIE: Bohn & Associates has successfully worked at radio stations across Canada. The reason for our success is the objectivity that we bring to our analysis of radio stations in each market. Without any preconceived bias, we analyze the programming and focus on the client station and competing stations, in order to develop a strategic plan for the positioning and programming on our client station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12234 The first step we took in preparing this application was to undertake a totally unbiased analysis of the current Kelowna radio stations, just as we would in any city. This analysis identified one obvious and one somewhat surprising format opportunity. The obvious missing format was Country. The surprising one was New Music for Adults. While SUN‑FM, the CHR Hot AC station, is playing new music for young people, the remaining FMs are gold‑based and not airing new music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12235 At this point, our extensive experience working with the JACK brand came into play. When it was first conceived, JACK was considered a radical departure from well‑entrenched programming approaches. Conventional wisdom said tight music formats were the key to success. JACK did the opposite. It brought Rock, Pop and Adult Contemporary music all together on one radio station. The huge audiences that were attracted to these radio stations showed that conventional programming had it wrong.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12236 Having found that new music for adults was largely missing in Kelowna, combined with our background with the gold‑based JACK format led us to thinking that playing a variety of new music from different genres would be a perfect fit. We called the format New Variety and decided to do some research to test the results.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12237 MR. FORSYTH: Paragon Media Strategies undertook the research through a telephone survey of 407 people in Kelowna 18 to 64 years of age. Our primary objectives were to determine the appeal of two music formats, New Variety and Country, and to arrive at an estimate of the potential audience for these formats.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12238 The research showed there was some interest in Country. Eight per cent said they would listen very often, and 13 per cent indicated they would listen often. There was, however, much greater interest in new variety, with 13 per cent stating they would listen to a radio station featuring this music very often and 22 per cent often. Paragon conservatively estimated that Country would garner a 6.4 share and New Variety a 10.4 share.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12239 There were other findings in the research that convinced us that New Variety was the needed new music format in Kelowna. After listening to a sample of the music, 25 per cent of the respondents found New Variety music very appealing and 36 per cent somewhat appealing, for a total of 61 per cent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12240 In response to other questions, 82 per cent said they would like to hear a greater variety of music on the radio; 72 per cent said that they felt many stations played the same songs; and 66 per cent felt Kelowna radio stations offered limited choice and an overall lack of variety.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12241 These responses indicated to us that radio listeners in Kelowna feel the music on the existing stations is too similar and that there is a lack of diversity on the radio dial. They wanted something different.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12242 MR. BOHN: After seeing the research, we were totally convinced that an FM station featuring new music from a variety of different genres would not only be successful, but that it was what was want needed and wanted in Kelowna.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12243 Once we had an audience share estimate, we could develop revenue and cost projections for our new variety station. As all of the applicants here have already said, Kelowna is a buoyant economic market. In terms of population and retail sales, Kelowna is one of the fastest growing cities in Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12244 Not surprising in this environment, the current radio stations are also doing well. Although we have only estimates to go by since 2005, it appears reasonable to project that total radio revenues will be about $13 million when our proposed station signs on. Our first year revenue estimate of $1.1 million is only 8.7 per cent of total market revenue, and appears conservative, given that our estimated audience share is 10.4. It is also clear that we will not have a significant impact on the financial situation of the existing stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12245 A very important, and possibly not so obvious, part of our application is the musical diversity of the New Variety format will bring to radio listeners in Kelowna. Bohn & Associates operates BDS in Canada, and understanding BDS is key to understanding the distinctly different music we will provide.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12246 MS FRIEDMAN: BDS utilizes some quite amazing technology. In every significant market in Canada, including Kelowna, BDS maintains what we call tuning closets. There, racks of computers tune to every station that can be received in the area. The audio is digitized as it is aired and then run through computer libraries to see if it matches one of over 600,000 unique songs identified. When it find a match, that song is logged as a spin. Across Canada, BDS will identify approximately 230,000 songs broadcast by over 187 stations in a typical week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12247 Thus, for Kelowna, BDS can give a totally accurate picture of exactly what songs the local radio stations are airing 24 hours a day, seven days a week. For example, at the time of filing the application, 69 per cent of the music on POWER was pre‑2000 and 79 per cent of the music on CILK was pre‑2000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12248 By creating a list of the artists and songs that would be aired on the new variety station and comparing it with the songs actually played on the existing Kelowna stations, we found that only about 10 per cent on CILK, around 6 per cent on SUN and less than 1 per cent on POWER would duplicate what new variety would air.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12249 MR. BOHN: The BDS data provides irrevocable evidence that the music on our New Variety station will be distinctly different from what is currently available. So what exactly is the New Variety format?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12250 MR. CELSIE: The New Variety format is an adult format that will focus on new music from five genres: Modern Adult, Adult Alternative, Smooth Jazz Vocals, Chill and World. In percentage terms, about 20 per cent Modern Adult, 40 per cent Adult Alternative, 30 per cent Smooth Jazz Vocals, 5 per cent Chill and 5 per cent World.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12251 Combining the music from these different genres will keep the music fresh and interesting. What we have learned from JACK is that it isn't only which songs you play, it is how you put the music together that makes it appealing. It is putting the songs together so that each of the tempo differences and style differences are emphasized. It is creating a music flow that gives listeners a broader experience when they listen to the station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12252 Although most of the music is not currently available on radio in Kelowna, it is by and large not unfamiliar music. It is music by artists whose CDs our listeners buy when they go to the record store and by artists, who, when they come to Kelowna, play before sold‑out audiences. New Variety radio will have a high degree of familiarity and, at the same time, freshness because it is new.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12253 Our experience has taught us that playing the same music as competing radio stations is usually the least successful way of trying to establish a radio station. The best way is to find distinct points of differentiation and then to emphasize the differences. Success comes when the audience recognizes you are offering something different and delivering a good listening experience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12254 One of the cornerstones of our application is our 40‑40‑40 plan. Overall, and between 6:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m., a minimum of 40 per cent of our music will be Canadian. More significantly, we think, we will commit that 40 per cent of our Canadian content will be by emerging artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12255 MS FRIEDMAN: In June of this year, Billboard magazine debuted the Canadian Hot 100 Chart. It combines digital sales and airplay collected by BDS from 187 radio stations across Canada to produce a chart of the most popular songs for that week. This is a significant event because it marks the first time that Canada has had a really accurate picture of the most popular songs in the country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12256 I think the most exciting thing about this new chart is that we can now draw a realistic line between artists who have achieved success and those who are emerging.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12257 Billboard's definition and the one BDS is using for emerging Canadian artists is the following.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12258 All songs must not only qualify as Canadian under the MAPL definition, but the song must include the A for artist. If the artist does not qualify as Canadian, the song does not qualify as emerging.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12259 When a song by a Canadian artist reaches the top 40 of the Canadian Hot 100 Chart, the date is recorded. Exactly 12 months from that date, that song and every song by that artist no longer qualify as emerging.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12260 In addition, only songs that have been released in the past five years qualify as emerging.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12261 I believe this definition captures the essence of what we all believe when we say emerging Canadian artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12262 MR. CELSIE: Our commitment to having 40 per cent of our Canadian content by emerging artists is based on this definition. We can make this commitment because the New Variety format is the perfect environment for playing this new music. Our focus is new music and outside of Rock, Hip Hop and Country, almost all new material by emerging Canadian artists will fit perfectly into our music flow.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12263 Extensive exposure of emerging artists is just one part of our plans for developing Canadian content.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12264 MS HOMMY: Our plan for Canadian content development begins with an estimated contribution to FACTOR of $184,000 over seven years. We will ask FACTOR to use these funds to support B.C. talent, particularly up and coming artists from the Okanagan Valley.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12265 To help sow the seeds for our Canadian artists of the future, we will contribute $10,000 each year through our Music in Okanagan Schools proposal. These funds will be used to buy instruments for the students and to assist them in taking that first step down a path that may lead to a future career in music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12266 The Rising Star Initiative is a centre piece of our Canadian Content Development plan. Each year, four local artists with real potential and a desire for a musical career will be selected to participate.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12267 As the first step, they will have the opportunity to make a top quality CD through our $10,000 contribution. This will enable them to record their own music in a real studio such as ZMS Productions. They will be guided by a professional producer and able to hire strong back‑up musicians. The end product will be a great CD that they can sell at retail and at their own performances.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12268 When we get the CD, we will feature the music on our radio station and make them our Artist of the Month. This will include artist profiles and spotlight them on our Young and the Restless program. We will also heavily promote a showcase performance at a local venue where they can launch their new CD.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12269 Each year we will hold our Rising Star Music Festival. We want this to become a major event in Kelowna. Each Rising Star artist will perform at this event, as well as a recognized headliner to attract the largest possible crowd.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12270 What we are doing with the Rising Star Initiative is creating a comprehensive plan for our most talented local artists. Over seven years, 28 local artists will have great CDs, extensive radio airplay, high profile promotion and exceptional local performing opportunities. We believe that only this kind of multifaceted approach can take them to the next level.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12271 Noel Wentworth is the person who will work with the artists participating in the Rising Star Initiative to ensure that they make the most out of this wonderful opportunity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12272 MR. WENTWORTH: As a singer, songwriter and performer myself, all I can say is what a plan. We do have a lot of great new talent here in this area. This was certainly in evidence at the recently held Okanagan Music Awards. I feel that we definitely have the talent that would do very well on the national scene. They need funding, they need support, and they need exposure. To me, this is exactly what the Rising Star Initiative is designed to do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12273 I certainly look forward to working with this talent and helping them have real careers. I feel my background both as a performer and as a teacher matches perfectly with the skills needed to make the Rising Star Initiative as successful as it possibly can be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12274 MR. BOHN: If our application is approved, Deep Waters Media will bring a fresh new voice and perspective to radio in Kelowna. Because of our many years of experience consulting to radio stations across Canada, we have accumulated a great deal of knowledge about what makes a radio station successful. This station will give us the opportunity to apply this knowledge here in Kelowna. We have the team and the resources to do what we have committed to do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12275 The New Variety format will add great musical diversity to the Kelowna radio dial. At least 90 per cent of the music we will play never gets aired in this city today. Sixty‑one per cent of those surveyed found the music appealing, and 35 per cent said they would listen to a radio station featuring this music. The 10.4 audience share estimated by Paragon Media Strategies is more than sufficient for us to meet our financial projections.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12276 All of our programming will be locally focused and have a real sense and feel of Kelowna. We will have 14 hours of spoken word programming. Our adult audience will expect, and we will provide comprehensive news, weather and sports when it is most wanted and needed. Our daily features on valley arts and culture, money and real estate, food and wine will all be tied to the local lifestyle here in Kelowna.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12277 Our New Variety music format lends itself to creating destination programs where we will feature the music from genres such as Jazz, Chill and World music in more depth than we can in regular music flow.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12278 We have a special commitment to supporting emerging Canadian artists and introducing them to our audience. Not only will 40 per cent of our Canadian content be by emerging artists, but we will also have special features profiling and showcasing these artists. In all of our programming, we will pay particular attention to supporting local artists from the Okanagan Valley.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12279 We are also making a special commitment to being a green radio station. In building the station, we will do everything possible to reduce the size of our carbon footprint. Our offices and studios will all be built to meet this objective. Reduce, reuse and recycle will be an engrained part of our daily operation. It will be a work place that minimizes our impact on the environment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12280 This same attitude will carry over to our on‑air programming. It will be reflected in the words and attitude of our announcers. It will be featured in Green Earth Chronicles which will be aired three times each day. It will be seen in our whole‑hearted support for the local community green initiatives. We will make environmental sensitivity a defining trademark of the station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12281 In conclusion, Madam Chair, members of the Commission, today there are no independent radio stations in Kelowna. We are asking for the opportunity to establish one. We know and understand what is required for a radio station to be successful. Our New Variety format will add real musical diversity and the research shows that it will be very popular in Kelowna. Our news and spoken word programming would give listeners a new fresh perspective and be a real alternative to what is currently available. In every way, we have the knowledge and resources to make this station a great success.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12282 This concludes our presentation and we look forward to answering your questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12283 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Bohn. Nobody should be able to say that they have been in the radio business for over 30 years and never have come to a CRTC proceeding. So I am glad you are here and hope to make this as painless for you as possible.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12284 I am going to ask Commissioner Williams to lead the questioning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12285 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That is where I come in, painless as possible.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12286 Your application and your supplementary brief have been very thorough. I was particularly impressed with the Kelowna market overview in Appendix 1A of your supplementary brief. It goes into the history of Kelowna. I had no idea that Kelowna meant grizzly bear, which is an interesting thing to learn, and life in Kelowna and the climate and the culture and the events and festivals, the importance of wine country, restaurants, dining, shopping, fashion. It is like a very well‑written, welcome to Kelowna kind of overview going into recreation, education, transportation. And then we get into the meat of it, the growth projections and the retail sales growth and the housing market and revenue and market information.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12287 But I thought it was just such a wonderful overview that it was worth time complimenting your team on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12288 MR. BOHN: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12289 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a series of questions that we will go through that are in some respects quite similar to the ones that almost everyone else has received.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12290 In the area of programming, in your application you indicate that you will be engaging listeners and discussions on the environment, health and wellness. That, to me, suggests that you will be offering some open‑line programming. Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12291 MR. BOHN: Mr. Celsie.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12292 MR. CELSIE: Absolutely not. These will be scripted programs that will be scheduled on the air in that manner. There will be no open‑line programming on our station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12293 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Could you briefly describe your green commitment as it relates to your station's operations, particularly spoken word and items being broadcast, how will you promote this?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12294 MR. BOHN: We will take the opportunity to I think cover off ‑‑ when we decided to make a commitment to being a green radio station, I was in the position two years ago of being that person that took one bag from the top of my house down and, you know what, it took a lot of convincing, but every day I have been learning and, as a result, I now take five containers down and get five times the exercise.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12295 It has been a commitment of mine personally and a commitment that we have made at Bohn & Associates. I can tell you about the commitment we are making at the radio station, the one that we are making on the air.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12296 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, that is the one I am most interested in, is how it will affect the on‑air portion of your radio station, proposed radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12297 MR. BOHN: We will start with that first. Arnie.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12298 MR. CELSIE: There are a couple of elements that fall into our green commitment as far as programming is concerned.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12299 First of all, we will be having, as part of our regular scheduled news, sports, weather, general surveillance and that kind of information an environment report which will run four times a day and be one minute in length. It will cover off what is happening as far as the environment locally, what local news is happening. The city has a very strong environmental program and supports environmental programs and promotes them. We will be talking about those kinds of things through that on a regular basis on the radio station, both Monday through Friday and on the weekends.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12300 To supplement that, we are going to go more in depth with a program that we have called Green Earth Chronicles. It is going to talk about all manner of new green technologies, ways to be green, bring things forward that are new as far as green options for living are concerned, and business, and that will air three times a day on the radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12301 In addition to that, we have a number of promotional and other items that will fall into this category that, while not scheduled on a regular basis, will be part of the programming, and Hillary has the details on those kinds of things that will also be part of the green plan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12302 MS HOMMY: In trying to come up with the green commitment and our green policy, we realized that there is five direct areas where we can make a positive impact within the community and especially through our radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12303 The first area was the on‑air programming that Arnie just talked about, so I can skip that one.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12304 The second direct positive impact area will be in our community involvement. Now, we are going to champion the recycling and the replacement of old forms of music such as CDs, tapes. Now I just want you to picture that box of old tapes that you have in your garage that you don't want to throw out because you spent money on them but at the same time you have no idea what to do with them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12305 So, we are going to champion the recycling and the replacement of these forms of music to digital copies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12306 We are also going to organize a bicycle drive where, once again, go to your garage or your storage room and there is that old bicycle that nobody rides any more but it is still a good bicycle. We are going to organize all these bicycles, fix them up and then donate them to individuals in the community that require them. Children, adults, whoever wants a bicycle will be able to get them from this program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12307 As Arnie mentioned, Kelowna is an incredibly green environment, so we will support any sort of community initiatives on air or just through the station, lending support whenever we can.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12308 The third area where we know we can make a direct positive impact is in transportation. Every employee within the station is going to be given a bicycle to ride to and from work. Now, to be honest, I cannot wait to see Arnie on a bicycle. So, this is going to be fantastic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12309 The second area will be hybrids. We know that hybrids are incredibly efficient and they are also coming down in price. So, every station vehicle will also be a hybrid.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12310 The third area where we know it is going to make an impact is any flights that we take, there are many programs out there such as Zero Footprint where we can minimize, if not equalize, our carbon footprint whenever we fly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12311 The fifth and must I say kind of the most exciting kind of grand finale of our green policy is our Big Green Gathering. This is going to be a major event in Kelowna, or we hope it is going to be a major event in Kelowna.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12312 Picture a big green field close to any major transportation routes, walking, biking distance, a big field where we are going to have green vendors, a farmer's market, anybody that lives a green lifestyle we are going to invite to take part in this Big Green Gathering.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12313 There will also be a green forum where we will be able to invite local or national experts to be able to share ideas. There are so many ways to be green now that you learn about a new one every day. So we know that if there is that opportunity that if somebody can walk out of this green forum with just one little bit of information like to unplug their cell phone charger when they unplug their phone, that will be amazing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12314 Tai Chi and yoga classes will be throughout the day as well. Once again, can't wait to see Arnie doing that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12315 This entire festival is going to be topped off by our Rising Star concert. This is part of our Canadian Content Development plan, but our four rising stars that are chosen throughout the year will perform throughout the afternoon and they will be headlined by a Canadian artist. We are picturing in the evening underneath the stars a Canadian headlining artist. It is going to attract the biggest possible crowd and that is really how we see how we are going to directly affect the community here in Kelowna, as well as hopefully other stations that might want to follow a little.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12316 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you for that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12317 With respect to your New Variety music format, you have described it as a blend of new music from this decade drawn from five different musical genres, 20 per cent being Modern Adult, 40 per cent Adult Alternative including Roots, Folk, Alternative, Original, Blues, 30 per cent Smooth Jazz, both vocal and instrumental, 5 per cent Chill and 5 per cent World.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12318 In looking over these various styles of music, it would appear that some could be considered belonging to category 3 music special interest, for example, sub‑category 34 is devoted to jazz and blues, sub‑category 33 devoted to world beat and international music and sub‑category 33 is devoted to folk and folk‑oriented music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12319 In order to help us determine to which extent category 3 music will be offered, could you provide us with a description of each style of music proposed?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12320 MR. BOHN: We can. It is a good question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12321 We propose formats to clients on a consistent basis, and I saw the look on your face and I can see a number of radio company owners going, Pat, I am not a specialty licence. You are proposing that I enter to that territory. So, we will try to give you the best description that we can for each one and I will ask Arnie to do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12322 MR. CELSIE: Let me begin by saying first of all as consultants we are always looking for opportunities. We are trying to get an edge.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12323 Success comes from identifying the unique market position and finding that point of differentiation is critical.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12324 The 35‑plus audience, the boomers, our radios biggest fans. They provide the most hours tuned for radio; they spend the most time with radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12325 The vast majority of radio stations in Canada are gold‑based. Adults buy new music, now more than ever perhaps because they can now find new music in a lot of locations that is no longer intimidating to them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12326 Our research clearly shows that the appeal of our New Variety blend of music is there. The profile of our potential listeners is as follows:
LISTNUM 1 \l 12327 Thirty‑seven per cent of those 18‑34 in our study said that they found new variety appealing; 47 per cent of 25‑34 year olds said they found our music appealing; 66 per cent of 34‑49 year olds said they found it appealing; and 74 per cent of those 50 to 64 found New Variety music appealing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12328 What the profile shows is that our New Variety music has the greatest appeal with the 35‑64 audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12329 Now, common sense might kind of say that new music and an older audience is a little out of sync, but conventional wisdom has it wrong in this case, just as it had it wrong in the JACK case about what could be combined together on one radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12330 Older listeners have a much greater interest in new music than we give them credit for. I will tell you how it works. We are going to combine the five genres of music. We are going to have a mix of texture, tempo and style to create the variety mix. The new music variety, by and large the music that is involved in that has no home on the radio at the present time. It is just simply not heard in Kelowna, although the artist sells CDs and sellout concerts. We are going to provide a home for the homeless in this case.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12331 Let's start with Modern Adult. We see this as tomorrow's AC. Typically an AC station is gold based, focused on the 70s, 80s, 90s, while the music from this decade represents the smallest percentage of music. Ninety per cent of New Variety will be from this decade. Modern Adult is great new artists who are in the headlines selling out concerts. They are on TV, they are on‑line, they are on satellite. It is a pop‑based music style that ranges from acoustic pop or folk kind of music to highly orchestrated productions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12332 Think, for example, from Canada, Amy Sky or Hayley Sales or Aselin Devison. Think from the United States about Josh Groban, John Legend or perhaps Dido from abroad. These are the kinds of artists that we will mix together from our Modern Adult music category.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12333 Adult Alternative has its roots on the rock side of Folk Rock. It is predominantly new music, although some great heritage artists existed in this music style. Bonnie Raitt, David Gray and in Canada Blue Rodeo, for example, would all fall under our Adult Alternative designation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12334 There are exciting new artists, Rufus Wainwright, Adrienne Pierce, John Mayer would fall under that category.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12335 Adult Alternative provides the energy and the edge and texture to the New Variety format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12336 The Smooth Jazz Vocals gives a little bit of sophistication, a little bit of sex appeal. It is a sophisticated kind of music perhaps. And, again, the songs we are thinking of playing are on the pop side of jazz. There is a lot of Canadian content in this section. Holly Cole, Feist, Molly Johnson, Remy Shand, Jack Soul all come under that kind of category, Carol Welsman, Liberty Silver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12337 On the other side, from the foreign selection of that, think Anita Baker, think Norah Jones, think Corinne Bailey Rae.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12338 People know this music and it is appealing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12339 Our Chill and World sections provide the Spice category for new variety.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12340 Chill, a slang term to express relaxing, to relax, I want to chill. That is where the music genre comes from. It is music that is mellow, it draws on electronica and is generally down tempo and relaxing. A lot of the music that is in the Chill category comes from compilation CDs and that is what it has in common with World music. The World music that we will choose for our station will be by and large by artists who perform World music in English or predominantly in English.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12341 An example might be Angelique Kidgo, her new album Jin Jin. She records with Josh Stone, with Josh Groban, Santana, Alicia Keyes. There is a lot of music there that brings her African roots to the music but the songs are performed and delivered in an English version.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12342 Beyond that, the World and Chill category will have down tempo jazz ensembles like Defazz which will be in there so to fill it all out. These songs will be woven into our programming through the day on a limited amount and used for destination programming through the evenings and weekends.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12343 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you for that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12344 I guess you still consider yourself a mainstream radio station and non‑specialty station. Is this correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12345 MR. BOHN: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12346 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What would the minimum level of category 3 be offered in any given week? I guess that is best for Mr. Celsie.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12347 MR. CELSIE: I guess, yes. I haven't thought anything about category 3, to be honest with you, because we didn't consider ourselves to be a specialty licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12348 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You have specified that you plan on offering vocal and instrumental Smooth Jazz. What would the vocal to instrumental ratio or percentage basis be during the broadcast week?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12349 MR. CELSIE: I would say probably 99 per cent vocal, 1 per cent instrumental overall in our mainstream programming during the day. We would play a little more instrumental music in our shows like Group Boutique or Sunday Smoothies, but it would still probably account for less than 5 per cent of our music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12350 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How many hours would this represent?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12351 MR. CELSIE: How many hours would it represent? The Group Boutique is a two‑hour show that we have planned from 10:00 to midnight Monday to Friday. It will not all be instrumental music. We have Sunday Smoothies, which is a two‑hour program, which runs on Sunday morning. It will not be all instrumental music. And we have what we called our Champagne Brunch on Sunday. It will also not be all instrumental music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12352 So the number of hours I am not sure of at this particular point. It might total up to an hour of instrumental music overall through the week if we were to play the good songs back to back.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12353 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would that be a maximum amount in your estimation?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12354 MR. BOHN: I am the yes man. Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12355 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So I might have the right guy then.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12356 Would you accept that commitment as a condition of licence?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12357 MR. BOHN: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12358 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12359 Given the wide range of music you plan on broadcasting, why do you feel that your potential listeners will remain loyal to your station?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12360 MR. CELSIE: That is a great question. Every place I go these days I run into people first of all that talk about how tired they are of what they hear on the radio now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12361 As consultants we see a lot of research, as we have stated. We see focus groups, we see perceptional research, and one of the biggest complaints is that people are getting the same old, same old on a lot of radio stations. It is older gold music. It is stuff they have heard forever.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12362 When something fresh and interesting comes along or when they go to the Starbucks to buy their latest CD, it is something interesting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12363 When you go to their homes and they put the music on for a dinner party it is rarely the Elton John, Celine Dion, Phil Collins and Rod Stewart collection that you get from AC stations. It is generally much more in the line of what we are talking about here from New Variety. There are soft songs but they are from newer artists and they have broad appeal, mixed with songs that have a little bit more rock edge and a little bit more appeal to create an atmosphere for the evening.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12364 You find the same thing in coffee shops and in restaurants and on people iPods when you drive with them in their car.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12365 Our speculation is that because of the appeal of this music and because people are already buying it, because people attend the concerts for these people, there is a place for a radio station to garner an audience from it, and our research shows that they find it very appealing and they said that they would be willing to listen to this format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12366 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Celsie.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12367 I would like to just discuss with you our choice of music format for your proposed radio station, given the fact that Clear Sky is also proposing to serve this demographic with a somewhat similar music offering.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12368 Firstly, can you describe how your New Variety music format will differ from Clear Sky's Smooth Jazz format and, secondly, why do you believe your format will provide the greatest degree of programming diversity and represent the best choice of format to serve the adult population of Kelowna?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12369 MR. CELSIE: The first biggest difference between our proposal and what Clear Sky is offering is in the era of the music on the radio station. If I understand their format correctly, their format will focus a considerable amount of their music on the 70s and 80s. There is a lot of gold music that comes into their format and the percentage of music, although I don't recall it off the top of my head, what theirs would be is much smaller than 90 per cent for sure. My brain is telling me somewhere in the 20 per cent range perhaps, although I have no real reason to stick them with that kind of label.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12370 That is the first step, is that our format is focused on new music which gives us the opportunity to promote new artists in Kelowna and new artists in Canada, and that is a big difference and we think a big deal to be able to promote new and emerging talent on the radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12371 Secondly, our format is more I guess what we used to call a foreground format. The music is active. The music is energetic. The music is for people who live a very active lifestyle and who are engaged in what is going on in the lifestyle of Kelowna.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12372 Our view of what the Smooth Jazz format would be more of a background format, a very passive format and something which is sort of on in the background but not really noticed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12373 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We will talk in the area of marketing now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12374 Please explain why you expect to have a greater audience share and revenue impact on CKLZ than on CILK, given that CKLZ is a rock station that would seemingly attract a younger male demographic, while CILK targeted demographic would appear to be much more similar to that of your proposed station. So, why a larger impact on one than the other?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12375 MR. BOHN: Commissioner Williams, our research and our audience share indicate that the 10.4 audience 18 to 64 from Paragon's research, the majority of that audience would come from CILK. In our supplementary brief, I believe we indicated that that audience would come from CILK as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12376 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you for that clarification.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12377 Your business plan indicates that you anticipate generating 30 per cent of your total year two revenues from an increase in the budgets of current advertisers. Given the relationships that already exist between these advertisers and the existing stations in the market, how would you propose to achieve this objective?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12378 MR. BOHN: Well, we feel our first year revenue of $1.1 million, gradually increasing in year seven to $2 million, they are on the conservative side. They are based on our audience projections, and when we filled out the revenue streams, we allocated 30‑30‑30‑10. I can't really do the math for you except to tell you the following.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12379 I think that while some of them may float up to 35 or 40 per cent and the other ones drop to 25 per cent, the audience and the revenue for this radio station, first we will achieve our audience, the revenue will follow. I can't really tell you at this point where that revenue is going to come once the audience is placed. As I said, it is likely to be first from CILK. Where the rest of the revenue falls in is, I would only be guessing and unaware of where that would come from.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12380 The budget, I think, and the numbers we have used to reach $1.1 million were based on the fact of a ten share that the market was trading at 140,000 to 150,000 a share point. So we felt that a budget of under just $1.1 million would be conservative and we would likely do much better than that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12381 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And you don't feel that the relationships that advertisers have with their current radio station suppliers ‑‑ I guess there would be no problem swinging them over to become loyal to you as you develop market share is what I am hearing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12382 MR. BOHN: My experience has taught me that advertisers flow to where audiences go. So, I think the advertisers have a tendency to go where the audience is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12383 I would think that if we deliver on our 10.4 share, the advertisers will follow. Since our budget is based on a high ratio of local sales, that it will be our local sales department's responsibility to bring home the revenue based on the audience performance. And whether they are loyal to one advertiser or to another, that will fall out, I guess, the way it will.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12384 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How many new undertakings do you estimate the Kelowna market can sustain? Would your business plan be negatively impacted? Should the Commission licence more than one station?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12385 MR. BOHN: Yes. I mean, I think the retail sales, the population growth indicate that the market is easily positioned for one radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12386 Should the Commission decide to licence two stations, we probably feel that our station targeting new music and the 35‑plus adult audience would be the best position to cover that demographic, and a second licence would probably be better suited to targeting and serving a younger audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12387 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let's say the Commission decides to licence more than one, which applicant's case would be most harmful to your business plan and which would be most compatible?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12388 MR. BOHN: I think that it would make it a little harder for us if a second station was licensed that targeted again an audience 35‑plus, and it would be least harmful if they were targeting a younger audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12389 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12390 I believe that concludes my full line of questioning for you, and thank you very much for your cooperation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12391 MR. BOHN: Thank you, Commissioner Williams.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12392 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Morin.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12393 COMMISSIONER MORIN: There is no doubt that you are a savvy observer, but there is one number on page 11, the first paragraph on page 11 of your oral presentation, you are saying that at least 90 per cent of the music we will play never gets aired in this city today. So, how did you get this number?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12394 MR. BOHN: I am glad that you asked the question because my Operations Manager beat me up on asking for these two boards to be done, and one has the explanation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12395 Arnie, if you can run through it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12396 MR. CELSIE: In putting the format together to arrive at these numbers, as I mentioned earlier, our experience is that in order to be successful we have to be unique, we have to be distinct. We didn't want to offer a product that was already available in the market. Trying to take listeners away from somebody who is already doing the same thing is a much harder job than building an audience with something that is unique, appealing and different.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12397 We developed a list of artists based on our experience as consultants and what we hear around other markets and what we saw happening as far as retail was concerned with regard to music, and we put together a list and we said, okay, does this make sense to us as far as what our concept was for New Variety, combining the different genres of Modern Adult, of Adult Alternative, of Smooth Jazz Vocals and of Chill and World.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12398 Once we had developed that list of artists, and it was about 150 deep that we got to, we said, okay, we think we have something here we can work with.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12399 We then went in and using BDS, which can identify all of the music that is played in any market just about in Canada, and Stephanie, I will ask her to explain that in just a second after I go through the initial part of this description, we took those artists and plotted them on a spreadsheet. I then went to BDS and drew 30‑day analysis over a six‑month period, which you can see on the chart here, and said any songs played by those artists that are on our list were going to count as duplicated music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12400 The numbers that are there sort of indicate how much duplication there was in the overall market and also how much duplication there was based on each of the stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12401 Before I go deeper, I will just get Stephanie to explain this to because I think that the understanding of how accurate BDS is is critical to believing what those numbers are because I have had a number of people say how can that be that none of these artists and none of these songs are getting played in the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12402 Steph, can you just explain that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12403 MS FRIEDMAN: As I mentioned earlier, BDS recognizes music 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Our identification in Canada is over 99 per cent, which means that virtually every song that gets to air is identified in our system.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12404 We also have manual auditing that vets any audio that didn't get an actual designated log spin and we ensure that the song that we missed is actually a song, did it play for 60 seconds, will it qualify as a CRTC spin, and we also evaluate things in terms of montage in Quebec.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12405 My knowing our recognition and knowing that we do manual auditing, we are able to guarantee that all of the songs within Arnie's 30‑day exhaustive analysis were accurate.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12406 Also, you can pull the data in a couple of different forms ‑‑ in many different forms actually. He analyzed this particular research project utilizing playlist, and it includes all of the songs that were identified in the 30‑day parameters that he laid out.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12407 MR. CELSIE: Having done that, we looked at it and we said, you know what, there is a great opportunity here to play this kind of music and to have it available in the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12408 The other advantage that we saw in developing this kind of format was for the benefit of playing emerging artists. Only in the New Variety format can we play emerging artists the way we do. A gold‑based format would have a great deal of difficulty in playing emerging artists simply because they don't play enough new music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12409 So, let me paint a picture for you of what we are talking about from the standpoint of emerging artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12410 In the near future I believe next week, Billboard magazine will debut a chart which will be a 25‑position chart, emerging artists in Canada, the top 25 songs by brand new artists who have never had a top 40 hit in Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12411 In order to create that list, they had to go almost 400 songs deep in the chart, 400 songs deep to come up with a list of 25. That is how little new music by new Canadian artists is getting played in this country. It is just simply ignored. The preference is given to established artists, to artists that have a reputation, to artists that have been making music for a long, long time. It is extremely difficult for the new artist who is equally as talented to get play on the radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12412 We have been told by some of the emerging artists locally that they have taken their CDs to the local radio stations and have been told directly that unless some other station in a bigger market is playing the song, they are not going to add to it their particular playlist. That is a tough spot for these new artists to be in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12413 Our emerging artists program is going to allow them ample airplay. For example, in a 12‑song hour on our radio station, two records every hour will be by those emerging artists. That is a lot of music by new people who haven't been exposed before who are going to get exposure and have their careers develop.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12414 In addition to that, we are going to highlight those artists on some of our feature programming like Young and the Restless, and when you combine that with our CCD plan of the Rising Star, that allows us even more impact to be able to help these people in an even greater fashion.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12415 Hillary can certainly explain the Rising Star program if you want the information on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12416 COMMISSIONER MORIN: Just a few words.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12417 MS HOMMY: I know you can't see me but my intention was to charm you with my voice.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12418 As Arnie prefaced was our Rising Star Initiative, and this is one of the most exciting projects that I have had the opportunity to work on in a long time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12419 There is five stages in our Rising Star Initiative, and the first stage is our selection of candidates. This is where four candidates that are clearly worthy of our program will be chosen by Noel Wentworth, our Rising Star Administrator, as well as station management.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12420 Stage two of our Rising Star Initiative is CD production. After the rising stars have been selected, they will each be given $10,000 to work with Noel and to develop a fantastic new CD of their original material.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12421 The $10,000 will be distributed in four instalments. The first instalment will be $1,000 for prerecording costs. Second instalment will be $5,000 for the actual recording sessions. Third instalment will be $3,000 for mixing of the music, and the final instalment of $1,000 will be for mastering the final CD.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12422 After completion of the CD that we have all of course been patiently waiting for, we can then move to stage three.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12423 Stage three is where the rising stars are going to receive significant airplay on our radio station. Not only are they going to receive the significant airplay, they will also be featured as artists of the month and they will be featured on our Young and the Restless program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12424 After we have created enough buzz to get the community really excited about these rising stars, we will then have a CD release party. The release party will be promoted extensively on air. This is going to be an amazing event at a local venue, where the artists are going to have the opportunity to perform and, most importantly, sell this brand spanking new CD that they have just put together.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12425 Once again, I like to talk about grand finales. I am a numbers person so I usually go 1 to 5 and then fifth is our grand finale. So, our grand finale is our Rising Star Concert. This is where our four rising star will be the opening acts for a Canadian headliner. This Canadian headliner will draw the largest possible crowd. More than likely this will be the largest crowd that any of these rising stars will have ever played in front of.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12426 If I can go back to Arnie, maybe he will tell you a little bit about how this will work on‑air in the community, if you have any further questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12427 MS LEYLAND: Commissioners, if I may, because there are many similarities to Deep Waters' Rising Star Initiative with Rawlco Radio's 10K20 project, which you might be familiar with from our Edmonton experience, Calgary and Saskatchewan, I think it is just worth drawing your attention to how well this is going to work.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12428 In Edmonton, 74 projects have been approved over the last three years, with 55 completed CDs by artists, and a large number of them have received extensive airplay on our radio station all day part.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12429 If I can just give you a couple of examples, because I know time is precious, of what happens when a CCD project like 10K20 or Rising Star is approved.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12430 One song on our station Magic, When Superheroes Die by Roland Mayhew is a 10K20 song and is the single most requested song on our radio station since we signed on in December of 2005. That is a song that I can categorically say would not have been recorded, would not have been heard without this project.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12431 Kent Samster, who is a well‑known jazz musician in Edmonton ‑‑ very proud of this ‑‑ his CD, 10K20 CD Obsessions was nominated as Album of the Year at the 2007 Juno Awards in the Traditional Jazz category.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12432 Those are just two examples, real life examples of what a difference this makes when the money is given, the CDs are produced and, most importantly, this music is heard on radio stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12433 Arnie, anything else?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12434 MR. CELSIE: I appreciate the fact that we sort of got off track from the original question, but I am willing to go back there if you want more information. Sorry about that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12435 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Celsie, I am going to go back to the format for just a second. I am looking specifically at page 35 of your supplementary brief, where you have included a number of artists in each of the categories of music for your station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12436 First question, where is Mr. Wentworth on this list? Where would you fall?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12437 MR. CELSIE: He will be on this list as soon as I can convince Pam to give me the CD.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12438 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I also appreciated the explanation of Chill because I was wondering what Massive Attack, Moby and Martha Wainright had in common, but I think your explanation was sufficient for that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12439 Onto the area of Smooth Jazz. In response to questioning with Commissioner Williams, you said that you did not feel that your jazz component, and correct me if I misheard you, did not fall under the specialty category 3?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12440 MR. CELSIE: It may fall under that category. We don't consider ourselves a special licence simply because we are trying to select the vocal material and texture the radio station that way. We would never describe ourselves as a Smooth Jazz radio station. Will there be music that you could put into that category? Probably, but it is not necessarily why we are choosing that particular music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12441 It is the blends and the feel and the texture of the music that we want to bring together. It just happens to be from that kind of category.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12442 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think you mentioned 30 per cent in your conversation with Commissioner Williams as it could be as much as 30 per cent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12443 MR. CELSIE: Of vocals.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12444 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of vocals only.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12445 MR. CELSIE: Of vocals.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12446 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you wouldn't include, whatever, instrumentals?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12447 MR. CELSIE: The instrumentals, as I mentioned, I think, there will be a few that may make it into day time programming from a textural standpoint. The rest of those would probably be used to supplement and emphasize our destination programming that would be from 10:00 to midnight on week nights. The kind of atmosphere we are trying to create there is kind of like the end of a long hard day, the kids are put to bed and you have some time to yourself so you light the candles and you grab a bottle of wine, you put the bubbles in the bathtub and you slide in and you have the radio on in the background and have a nice peaceful end to the day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12448 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is getting to be a long day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12449 MR. CELSIE: But very worthy it when you get to the end.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12450 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of course, I appreciate that this is just a sample, but of course some of your artists in that category are played by Adult Contemporary stations, by CHR stations across the country who don't have any commitment to, or limit of, Smooth Jazz, but yet somebody like Diana Krall can just about cross over into any format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12451 MR. CELSIE: Commissioner, I appreciate your comment a whole lot. Diana Krall could cross over into a lot of formats. I challenge, using BDS, to look at how much airplay Diana Krall really gets in this country as a megastar. It is so minimal that it is almost scary. Outside of perhaps The Wave in Hamilton and The Breeze as it was originally perhaps in Calgary, Pam's station perhaps in Edmonton, there may be one or two songs off her most recent album that were Canadian by designation that get played.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12452 A lot of Diana Krall's music doesn't qualify as Canadian content because it is not written or produced or recorded in Canada. Almost none of that gets played, other than perhaps on CBC, in this country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12453 THE CHAIRPERSON: What would you say the median age of your listener is?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12454 MR. CELSIE: I think the median age of our listener is probably going to be mid‑forties.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12455 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Friedman, you provided us with a definition of emerging artists that would be applied to this radio station in meeting that 40 per cent commitment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12456 In other proceedings we have heard various definitions of an emerging artist and we have also been told that finding one that is universally applied to all formats is difficult.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12457 Do you believe that this definition could be applied to all formats and all genres of music?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12458 MS FRIEDMAN: I do believe there needs to be a distinct definition for francophone Canada. I have been working with ADISQ and Astral to come up with a methodology, and this time we are preparing a Quebec Canadian Top 100 chart which may speak to the results that we need to be able to identify artists that have had great exposure or at least some exposure on the radio and of course had sales. This way we can get away from having a sound scanner or a sales chart and having a separate airplay chart, which is all we have had up until June.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12459 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12460 Legal counsel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12461 MS LEHOUX: Yes, one question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12462 For the record, you have attached documents to your oral presentation. Could you just describe them and we will then add them on to the public record, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12463 MS HOMMY: The two documents that I have given are the duplication chart by station, as well as a graphical description of our format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12464 MS LEHOUX: You have also attached a letter from FACTOR?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12465 MS HOMMY: Yes. We have attached a letter from FACTOR that came in a bit late. It is a letter where we have asked FACTOR to donate our funds specifically to B.C. talent and we have requested that and they have agreed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12466 MS LEHOUX: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12467 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Legal counsel, I also had attached to mine a letter from School District 23.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12468 MS LEHOUX: I didn't have that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12469 MS HOMMY: That is on the public record already.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12470 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Bohn, you now have two minutes to give us your best pitch.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12471 MR. BOHN: Thanks, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12472 In closing what I want to focus on are the aspects of our application that are unique and different from the other ten applications at this hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12473 First, we are the only truly independent application. At the same time, in terms of experience, we have as much or more experience and expertise as any other applicant appearing here this week. We are the only applicant with a totally new radio format for an adult audience. Ninety per cent of the music on the New Variety format cannot be heard on Kelowna radio, and we will add the greatest musical diversity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12474 We have had more success than anyone making a new format a huge success, as can be seen in the ratings for JACK. We are the only applicant with a 40‑40‑40 plan. Not only will we air 40 per cent Canadian over the week, we will also air 40 per cent between 6:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. Monday to Friday.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12475 Deep Waters Media is proposing an adult format that will play 40 per cent of our Canadian music by emerging artists. In programming terms, this means that every hour of the week will contain two songs by emerging Canadian artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12476 We are the only applicant proposing to play new music for an older audience. All other adult formats proposed this week focus on older gold music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12477 Only a new music format can provide an environment where music by emerging artists fits naturally into the music flow. By making a commitment to emerging artists we are, at the same time, making a format commitment to you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12478 We believe that our Rising Star Initiative will do more to support Kelowna artists than any other proposal you have heard this week. Each year we will help four local artists make a quality CD, play their music on our radio station, promote their local performances and feature them in a major local concert. No other applicant will have this kind of impact on furthering the careers of talented local artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12479 We are the only applicant with the comprehensive green initiative. We are the only applicant that would make the environment a central part of our plan both on the air and off the air.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12480 These are the major commitments in our application that differentiate us from the other applicants. Taken together I believe they give you some very good reasons for approving our application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12481 Members of the Commission, we hear more radio, listen to more music and see more research than any independent company in Canada. We have done a lot in the past to support the Canadian radio and music industry. The only thing we have not done is own our own radio station, and this will fulfil my life long dream, to own a radio station in a city that I love.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12482 We will make this New Variety format, this new idea a big success and we won't let you down. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12483 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Bohn and your colleagues. Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12484 Madam secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12485 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12486 I would now ask Corus Radio Company to come forward to the presentation table.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12487 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right, ladies and gentlemen, order, please. We are about to begin.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12488 Madam Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12489 THE SECRETARY: Order, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12490 Just a housekeeping note, for the record Vista Radio has filed, in response to undertakings, an amended Appendix 4.3 new FM operating summary, as well as playlists for the proposed Classic Hits station. These documents have been added to the public record and copies are available in the public examination file.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12491 We will now proceed with item 11, which is an application by Corus Radio Company for a licence to operate an English‑language specialty FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Kelowna, British Columbia.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12492 The new station would operate on frequency 96.3, channel 242B, with an average effective radiated power of 7,100 watts, maximum effective radiated power of 20,000 watts, antenna height of minus 89 metres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12493 Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Jim Johnson. Please introduce your colleagues and you will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 12494 MR. JOHNSTON: Thank you very much. Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Commissioners and Commission staff.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12495 My name is Jim Johnson and I am the General Manager for Corus Radio Vancouver. Almost two years ago I came back to BC.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12496 Before I begin our presentation, I would like to introduce the members of the Corus Radio team that were integral in preparing this application for a new FM News/Talk radio service for Kelowna.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12497 To my left, Chris Duncombe, a native of Kelowna. Chris is the Program Director of CFOX‑FM (Vancouver). He grew up here, was educated here, spent his first two years at the UBC Okanagan and then finished up the last two years of his degree at UBC Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12498 To Chris' left, Tom Plasteras, who is the Program Director of CKNW in Vancouver. Tom has spent all his working years in B.C.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12499 To my right, Sylvie Courtemanche, Vice‑President, Government Relations, Corus Entertainment Inc. Sylvie, by the way, has four brothers who live in B.C. She actually has eight brothers, so needless to say she has kept us in line during this whole process.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12500 To Sylvie's right, Cole Alford, who is our Senior Accountant and a Vancouverite, as well, born and raised.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12501 Finally to his right is Robert Hutton, who is the Executive Vice‑President and General Manager of Pollara, and he tells us he spent his early childhood years in B.C.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12502 And behind us, a man who has resided in Vancouver for the past 26 years, Bob Brennert, who is our Director of Engineering.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12503 The Corus Radio Company is delighted to have this opportunity to present its proposal for a News/Talk specialty format FM radio service for Kelowna, British Columbia. This would actually be the first private FM News/Talk station in English Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12504 You have heard many times this week that Kelowna is a vibrant and growing community. It is the largest city in the Central Okanagan, and it is also one of the fastest growing cities in the province. With a diversified economy that includes agriculture, forestry and tourism, Kelowna is becoming one of Canada's most important retirement centres. In fact, Kelowna's economy was recently described by the Economic Development Commission as "firing on all cylinders."
LISTNUM 1 \l 12505 Corus Radio believes that the growth potential for this market is excellent, and that is why we are prepared to make a significant investment to launch what is the most expensive radio format, a specialty News/Talk service on the FM band.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12506 Corus Radio Kelowna will be dedicated to providing a distinctive local and regional perspective to this community with over 14 hours of news each broadcast week, updated 24 hours a day. We will combine this intensely local radio service with the best of Corus Radio regional and national network programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12507 This application is just one example of the Corus Radio vision to operate News/Talk stations on the FM band across Canada. We believe this is one of the ways that we can continue to be relevant to Canadians in the ever‑changing digital media world.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12508 At this point we invite you to view the monitor, as we have prepared a brief video presentation regarding our proposed News/Talk FM radio service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12509 Coming right up.
‑‑‑ Video presentation / présentation vidéo
LISTNUM 1 \l 12510 MR. JOHNSTON: As you can see, the proposed News/Talk service will be provided by local reporters, anchors and talk show hosts who have an intimate and unique view on Kelowna.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12511 This station will employ 30 people, with 12 of these dedicated to the newsroom. Our commitment to information programming will be unparalleled in the region. Corus Radio proudly owns and operates 16 News/Talk stations across Canada in markets such as Vancouver, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Toronto, Montreal and others.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12512 More importantly, Corus Radio is a trail blazer in the specialty News/Talk format on the FM band. We launched Canada's first private FM News/Talk radio service in Montreal last year and this year we expanded the FM News/Talk format to four Quebec regional markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12513 Our experience in Montreal has confirmed that we are on the right track. News/Talk appeals, and it appeals to an even wider audience base on the FM band.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12514 National research statistics indicate that the News/Talk format is responsible for 19.6 per cent of all radio tuning. In this province, British Columbians have a special affection for the format as News/Talk accounts for 24.3 per cent of all listening. More importantly, News/Talk compares favourably to other formats in its appeal to a demographic cross‑section.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12515 MR. PLASTERAS: The Kelowna radio market is like any other radio market in Canada, and that is very dynamic. Since Corus Radio first conducted its market research in May 2007, two stations have changed their formats. CKOV abandoned the News/Talk format when it made the move to FM, and CKFR made the move from an Oldies format to an AM News/Talk station in late August. It is obvious that these two changes could have had an impact on the market research filed with the Corus Radio application. It is for this reason that we commissioned Pollara to update the consumer demand survey conducted in May in order to give a more appropriate and updated view as to the demand and impact of the proposed Corus Radio News/Talk station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12516 The consumer demand survey update was conducted in October 2007. The Commission has accepted that this additional information become part of the public record and a copy was served on all applicants and intervenors.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12517 This survey demonstrates that the demand for the News/Talk format on the FM band is virtually unchanged since May as the proportion of respondents who believe that the station would be a positive addition to Kelowna has gone from 85 per cent to 83 per cent, which is well within the margin of error. In addition, the proportion of respondents who say they will definitely listen to the proposed News/Talk station has remained constant at 25 per cent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12518 On the other hand, the proportion of respondents that are satisfied with the news coverage of the radio stations available to them in Kelowna today has decreased from 39 per cent to 34 per cent. This means that CKFR's switch to the News/Talk format has not increased overall satisfaction.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12519 More importantly, the survey demonstrates that there is a hunger, a hunger for more local news and information on the radio, both among listeners and non‑listeners of the existing AM news/talk station and that, unprompted, 61 per cent of respondents were not able to name a talk radio station in the market. This implies that the proposed Corus Radio News/Talk station will serve to draw more listeners to this format and will increase tuning hours rather than solely draw listenership from the AM News/Talk station or any other station.s.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12520 This is important because since May there has been a drop in listenership to stations in the market, with a concurrent significant increase of the listening to other out‑of‑market stations from 22 to 37 per cent, representing a 15 per cent increase. Add to this the fact that the number of hours spent listening to the radio has actually increased from four to 4.8 hours a day between Monday and Friday, with the time spent listening on the weekends remaining unchanged. This leads one to conclude that there is a great opportunity to repatriate tuning hours to this market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12521 Also of interest is the fact that the AM News/Talk station has in just a few short weeks been successful in reaching a core and loyal audience base. Currently CKFR has the same level of awareness, 15 per cent, as CBC radio, and of those who are aware of CKFR 51 per cent say they listen to the station. This listenership represents 20 per cent of the total sample.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12522 Finally, the survey demonstrates that while 55 per cent of CKFR's listeners will definitely listen to the news service, this does not imply that there would be a total or permanent switch to the proposed News/Talk service or what proportion would listen to the new service in addition to CKFR.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12523 What is clear is that there is a demand for the proposed News/Talk service, and that the overall satisfaction to this format in the market has not improved with the introduction of the AM News/Talk service. In fact, three of the consumer demand reports filed by other applicants in this proceeding ranked Kelowna news and information as number one. With a migration to out‑of‑market tuning, we believe that an intensely local FM News/Talk service will help bring tuning back to local radio stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12524 MR. DUNCOMBE: The value of talk radio to a community is paramount. It is even more paramount in a city the size of Kelowna since it becomes a vital means by which people can learn about, discuss and debate the issues that affect their community, especially when events are breaking quickly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12525 Corus Radio has a long history of providing programming that instantly responds to the needs and interests of the population and of entrenching ourselves into the community through public service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12526 For example, the CKNW Orphans Fund in Vancouver raises and distributes approximately $1.5 million per year to Lower Mainland kids in need. During the recent winter storms that caused lengthy power disruptions, transportation delays and traffic chaos in the Lower Mainland, CKNW provided ongoing coverage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12527 Corus Radio has also committed the most significant Canadian Content Development proposal in this hearing. We have committed to a total of $250,000 per year for a total of $1.75 million over seven years. Our CCD proposal would include monies for:
LISTNUM 1 \l 12528 Music BC, Kelowna Independent Music and the Music in Schools programs; the Kelowna Life and Art Festival; Kelowna Parks Alive Music Series; the Kelowna Community Theatre and Okanagan Symphony Orchestra; bursaries for the UBC School of Journalism and a special UBC Journalism Bursary for aboriginal students; a Kelowna's Community Entrance to Journalism Program; and bursaries for the BCIT Radio Program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12529 We will also provide local talent on‑air support through our several daily sports and arts schedules to keep the citizens of Kelowna informed of the great live talent events happening in this area. This type of on‑air promotion will drive awareness and support all of these sectors.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12530 Minor sports will take centre stage each week with a two‑hour weekly in‑depth show on Sunday evenings.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12531 MR. JOHNSTON: Kelowna's economic growth is driven by increased activity in the manufacturing, technology and health care sectors in particular, which are attracting new businesses, many home businesses and residents to the area. This means that the rapidly growing region comprising the city of Kelowna and the Okanagan Valley is a place with many stories to tell and Corus Radio Kelowna has a good plan to tell them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12532 Corus Radio has the resources and expertise to ensure that this service is a success. The Commission is aware of our approach to facilities and training of our staff, and our new radio facilities in Montreal and Cornwall are illustrative of our objective to provide a first‑class operating environment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12533 In Kelowna, we will establish strong local management and content teams in this our first station in British Columbia outside the Lower Mainland region. As in all of our News/Talk markets we are committed to ensuring that this news service becomes an important member of the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12534 This concludes our presentation, and we would be happy to answer any questions that you have.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12535 Just before that, though, I would hand it over to Sylvie to make a clarification.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12536 MS COURTEMANCHE: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12537 Madam Chair, we will listening attentively yesterday and to the questions that had been posed to a variety of the applicants. We noted that one of the recurring questions was on Canadian talent development and the contributions and whether the applicants had included the basic component of their CCD in their financial projections.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12538 When we went back last night and I double checked our financial projections, I realized that the only component we had put in was the supplemental, which is the $250,000 per year, for a total of $1,750,000 over the seven‑year period.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12539 So, we revised our financial projections. I provided a copy this morning to legal counsel. But for the record what I did want to stipulate was that our additional or supplemental Canadian Content Development contributions would be $250,000 a year, for a total of $1,750,000. We have included, based on our revenue projections, an additional $36,820 and that would represent our basic Canadian Content Development contributions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12540 Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12541 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Courtemanche. We will just cross that question off the list. Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12542 I will ask Commissioner Morin to lead the questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12543 COMMISSIONER MORIN: We have just seen your video, but could you explain how Corus' commitment to information will be unparalleled in the region?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12544 MR. JOHNSTON: I think I will ask Tom Plasteras to add in on this in a moment, but we can say that the commitment that we are making is a long‑term commitment. It is a specialty format and a specialty licence. It is the most expensive format; if you take a look at the cost, it is twice as much as it takes a music station pretty much to do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12545 So, with that combined with the resources that we have of our company, all the way around our company, plus the way that we attack news in a marketplace, the way we are prepared for emergencies, our expertise in this area is something that we are quite good at.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12546 We have 16 stations across the country. We are known as the emergency station in all of those places.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12547 I will ask Tom to ‑‑ Tom.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12548 MR. PLASTERAS: I would just add to that that one thing we have worked very hard to convey in this application is the need to generate local content and to staff the newsroom to a level that would help us do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12549 MR. JOHNSTON: Also, too, with 14 hours of news a week is what we are promising and not only the 14 hours of news a week but all of the open‑line programs and all of the talk programming that goes with all of this is usually based on news and issues in the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12550 COMMISSIONER MORIN: Your growth projection of 32 per cent is well above the average annual growth rate of 6.3 per cent experienced by the Kelowna market since 2002. In spite of those projections, you will be in the red for the whole period.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12551 I am wondering here about the long‑term viability of the proposed format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12552 MR. JOHNSTON: It takes a while to get this format going. As you can see in our application, we are very conservative off the top in terms of what our revenues will be, but revenues do ramp over time over the seven‑year period. We would be profitable in the sixth year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12553 News/Talk is one of those formats that really is a great solution for a lot of retail operators in any location. It is all about retail with the News/Talk and there are a lot of retailers out there that are not using radio. In this community, for instance, there are 14,500 firms. Of those 14,500 firms, when you take a look at any radio station, they may have 500 or 600 accounts on the air. There is a lot to pull from in this area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12554 There is a lot of home‑based businesses that we believe are going to be exploding into bigger and better businesses and news/talk radio is extremely good in helping those businesses develop and become bigger and better businesses.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12555 So, over a period of time, we will be pulling a lot of people out of a booming retail market out of a booming retail market, into our station and into the media.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12556 COMMISSIONER MORIN: If you look at the numbers you arrived at over a period of seven years, your revenues will grow from half a million to $4.6 million. It is a big step as far as your revenues are concerned.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12557 MR. JOHNSTON: It is a big step. News/Talk, however, is a format that does extremely well on a power ratio basis, and I will ask Mr. Alford to explain and step us through some of that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12558 MR. ALFORD: Thank you, JJ.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12559 First of all to note, in year one we are basing that revenue projection on not fully selling all of our advertising for the entire year. As you know, when you first start up a station you are not going to have the initial ratings to be able to sell to the market for that full year, but yet you will still have the full year of set‑up costs and getting going.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12560 So that is really only half of the revenue year projection.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12561 Then, again, there is a large growth through to year seven. As stated in our application, we are planning on going from a ratings in adult 25 to 54 demographic from 8 per cent to 16 per cent. This is one of the metrics that we use in Corus, doing something that as JJ mentioned was a power ratio. This really measures the share of the revenue in the market that a station takes in comparison and versus to the share of tuning that a station has.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12562 With our 16 News/Talk stations across Canada, it is our experience that this power ratio for a mature market will come to 115 to 150 per cent for a mature News/Talk station. So, by year six or year seven when we are actually starting to get that 115 to 150 power ratio, these revenue calculations do make sense.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12563 As JJ also mentioned, Corus is very focused on strong retail sales growth and will be bringing in a lot of additional revenue from the 14,500 businesses in the Kelowna area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12564 COMMISSIONER MORIN: What will happen if the CRTC grants a licence to two radio stations instead of one? Will it make any difference for you as long as the other station is not one with a similar format?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12565 MR. JOHNSTON: No, it won't make a difference to us. We are committed to doing a News/Talk format on FM in the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12566 COMMISSIONER MORIN: Can you describe how your News/Talk format will defer from that of the CKFRs?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12567 MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Plasteras.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12568 MR. PLASTERAS: What we have here is a large amount first of all of local programming for news and information. We have 14.2 hours of news per week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12569 As well, we have a significant amount of local programming on the weekends, and what we really tried to focus on is community outreach and community access to the airwaves.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12570 In that way, we have got some programs such as Our Kelowna, which is a community access forum for groups that may not get much notice or air time to run on Saturday evening. We have a minor sports program which will be dedicated solely to covering kids sports, minor sports. It could be an information outlet; it could be showcasing young students. We have all got kids. How cool would it be to hear about your own kids on the radio?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12571 We have a talk show idol concept where we would invite local people to try their hand at this type of radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12572 So, we are really trying to make it very community intense.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12573 MR. JOHNSTON: I would add too that with 16 News/Talk radio stations across the country, Corus has its own sound and its own essence in marketplaces and a full commitment to the community. It is intensely community oriented.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12574 We spend a lot of time making sure that we are ready for any kind of emergencies and being that station as the one to go to when there are issues in the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12575 We do plan on hiring a lot of people for this and it is really important to do that. Thirty people is quite an amount of people; 12 actually in the newsroom. That is a lot. Not only 12 people in the newsroom, but the producers and everyone else behind the talk shows, everyone is trained on the news side and cross‑trained so we can mobilize at any time 30 people to be able to handle any issues that happen in town.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12576 COMMISSIONER MORIN: So I understand that, the Kelowna market can support two News/Talk stations?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12577 MR. JOHNSTON: We believe it can. I will step you through some chronology here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12578 When we first did research in May, CKOV was still on the radio as a news/talk station in town. The community was not aware that they were going to be changing over, and so our research pretty much reflected at that time their performance in the marketplace.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12579 We determined at that time that everyone would ‑‑ we pretty much evenly ‑‑ we would grab audience evenly from most of those radio stations. At that time CKOV, we would have picked up 14 per cent of their audience, conversely SUN I think about 18 per cent. So they were pretty much in the same zone as everyone else.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12580 We came back and did some more research in the marketplace since some changes have happened in the marketplace, and I will ask Mr. Hutton to expand on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12581 MR. HUTTON: Commissioner Morin, one of the things that has happened in the marketplace since the first research was done is the conversion of CKFR to the Talk format. They seemed to have achieved some strength already in the marketplace. The awareness of CKFR in the marketplace is already equal to the long‑established CBC. Yet, at the same time, 51 per cent of respondents indicated they weren't aware of any talk radio in the marketplace. This despite what we have seen in virtually every application and certainly in our research where there is extremely strong demand in the marketplace for more news and information and, in particular, some dissatisfaction with the level of news and information they are getting already.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12582 Overall, we believe that in combination, this tells us that there is going to be a significant demand for this station and that it won't just entirely draw from the existing stations, that there is indeed unmet demand in the marketplace, significant demand for more news and information, and that combined with the increasing level of out‑of‑market tuning indicates that there is a very strong untapped market here that we believe we will strongly be drawing from the marketplace.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12583 MR. JOHNSTON: I would add to that. Being on the FM brand, 70 per cent of the audience is predisposed to the FM band in the marketplace. That gets us to a whole wider audience of people out there with this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12584 It is interesting to note, not only what you have heard about our research program, but for the other research projects that have been filed in the last few days, news and information about Kelowna and three other studies that have been presented in front of you have ranked as number one. So there is a major demand here and we believe that there is enough room.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12585 COMMISSIONER MORIN: For summing up, why do you believe that your format will provide the greatest degree of programming diversity and represent the best choice of format to serve the adult population of Kelowna?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12586 MR. JOHNSTON: I will come back to the fact that this would be on FM. FM represents 25 to 54 audience that hasn't been exposed to news/talk on radio. The experiment that has turned out to be a great thing that we have done in Quebec, in Montreal with CHMP for the morning show is number one on FM as an example. Seventy per cent of the audience is on FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12587 So, there isn't a lot of room there. Or I shouldn't say there isn't a lot of room there, but 70 per cent on FM means that we are able to get to a much wider audience with this format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12588 COMMISSIONER MORIN: I note that you are proposing an All Talk format Targeting the 35 to 54 years of age group. As a news/talk service, will your proposed service cater to a specific core age group and, if so, what would it be?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12589 MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, we do. In just about every format in radio you pretty much have a specific type demo, and I would ask Mr. Plasteras, who is an expert in News/Talk, to expand on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12590 MR. PLASTERAS: The natural audience for a News/Talk station is 35‑64, yet the business demands are often based on 25‑54. So what we do is super serve the very core of both of those demos and we target the 35 to 54 year old evenly split between men and women.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12591 COMMISSIONER MORIN: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12592 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12593 In your sources of revenue chart that you provided in your application, you said that 39 per cent of your revenues would come from existing radio stations. Of that, how much would come from CKFR? In other words, what kind of impact do you anticipate having on CKFR?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12594 MR. JOHNSTON: We think that if you look at the audience impact being evenly spread over most of those stations, the impact would probably be about the same, perhaps a little bit more, but it is important to point out in our first year, of the $503,000 that we are looking at, only $200,000 is going to come at the expense. Now, that is 1.7 per cent of the $11 million radio spend. So, it is a pretty minimal impact to every player in the market.