ARCHIVÉ -  Transcription

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

              TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

                       SUBJECT/SUJET:

 

 

 

DIVERSITY OF VOICES PROCEEDING /

AUDIENCE SUR LA DIVERSITÉ DES VOIX

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

 

Conference Centre                     Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room                        Salle Outaouais

Portage IV                            Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage              140, promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                      Gatineau (Québec)

 

September 21, 2007                    Le 21 septembre 2007

 

 

 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

 

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

                 Transcript / Transcription

 

 

DIVERSITY OF VOICES PROCEEDING /

AUDIENCE SUR LA DIVERSITÉ DES VOIX

 

 

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Konrad von Finckenstein           Chairperson / Président

Michel Arpin                      Commissioner / Conseiller Rita Cugini                                  Commissioner / Conseillère

Andrée Noël                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Ronald Williams                   Commissioner / Conseiller

Stuart Langford                   Commissioner / Conseiller

Michel Morin                      Commissioner / Conseiller

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Chantal Boulet                    Secretary / Secrétaire

Nick Ketchum                      Hearing Manager /

                                  Gérant de l'audience

Shari Fisher                      Legal Counsel /

Bernard Montigny                  Conseillers juridiques

 

 

 

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

 

Conference Centre                 Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room                    Salle Outaouais

Portage IV                        Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage          140, promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                  Gatineau (Québec)

 

September 21, 2007                Le 21 septembre 2007

 

- iv -

 

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

INTERVENTION BY / ITNERVENTION PAR :

 

Canadian Diversity Producers Association (CDPA) 1189 / 6643

 

Madga de la Torre, on behalf of a corporation

to be incorporated (OBCI)                       1197 / 6701

 

Aboriginal Peoples Television

Network Incorporated                            1233 / 6975

 

Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc.                    1241 / 7024

 

National Campus and

Community Radio Association (NCRA / ANREC)      1274 / 7199

 

John Harris Stevenson (Pres. of CHUO‑FM)        1284 / 7255

 

L'Alliance des radios communautaires

du Canada (Arc du Canada)                       1326 / 7539

 

L'Association des radiodiffuseurs

communautaires du Québec (ARCQ)                 1338 / 7593

 

Association for Tele‑Education in Canada

and Saskatchewan Communications Network (SCN)   1381 / 7818

 

TimeScape Productions                           1402 / 7960

 

St. Andrews Community Channel Inc.              1415 / 8021

 

Friends of Canadian Broadcasting                1436 / 8155

 

The Evangelical Fellowship of Canada            1460 / 8273

 

David Skinner (Professor at York

with Robert Hackett ‑ Simon Fraser)             1475 / 8362

 

Michael Andrew Lithgow                          1485 / 8418

 

Women in Film and Television                    1509 / 8540

 

Gatineau, Quebec / Gatineau (Québec)PRIVATE

‑‑‑ L'audience commence le vendredi 21 septembre 2007

    à 0831 / Whereupon the hearing started at 0831

    on Friday, September 21, 2007

 LISTNUM  "WP List 3" \l 1 \s 6634 6634             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madame Boulet, good morning.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16635             I think we are ready.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16636             THE SECRETARY:  Good morning, Mr. Chairman.  Good morning everyone.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16637             We will start this morning with a panel of interveners.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16638             We have been informed that the ASP Productions intervener will not be appearing.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16639             In would now call on the Canadian Diversity Producers Association, Magda de la Torre on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, as well as the Committee to Commemorate and Memorialize the Abolition of the Slave Trades.  I understand this group may not be in the room.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16640             Therefore we will proceed with Mr. Paul De Silva for the Canadian Diversity Producers Association.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16641             If you could introduce your colleague and you will then have ten minutes for your presentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16642             Thank you.

INTERVENTION

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16643             MR. DE SILVA:  Thank you, Madame Boulet.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16644             Actually, it will be Ms Patricia Scarlett that will begin.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16645             MME SCARLETT : Monsieur le Président, Mesdames et Messieurs les Conseillers, bonjour.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16646             Je m'appelle Patricia Scarlett et je suis présidente du Scarlett Media.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16647             I am also the Acting Chair of the Canadian Diversity Producers Association, the CDPA.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16648             Today, I am joined by my colleague Paul De Silva, a Gemini‑award winning independent producer, former Vice President of Programming at Vision Television, project director for Canada One Television and a founding member of the CDPA.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16649             The CDPA is a fledgling organization whose mandate is to represent the interest of visible minority and culturally diverse producers and related professionals in the film, television and new media industries.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16650             The CDPA was launched with the support of the Banff World Television Festival in 2005.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16651             We would like to register our pleasure of being able to appear before the Commission at these important hearings that will undoubtedly have a profound impact on our broadcasting system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16652             As well, we are pleased to have the opportunity to express on behalf of our organization the issues that are of concern, particularly the issue of diversity of ownership as it pertains to visible minority communities.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16653             We would like to note that there seems to be a multitude of meanings and definitions for the words 'diversity' and 'plurality'.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16654             This not surprising given the fact that, as a society, we are all struggling to find appropriate language to define the rapidly changing demographics and media landscapes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16655             We noted with interest Richard Nielsen's comments regarding the evolving definition of diversity within the Commission's own policies.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16656             In 2006, diversity was defined as 'the inclusion of groups that have traditionally been underrepresented in broadcasting:  ethno‑cultural minorities, Aboriginal peoples and persons with disabilities'.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16657             Recently popular CBC radio host Andy Barrie stated that certainly, in Toronto, diversity had become a code word for visible minority.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16658             The CAB, the voice of private broadcasting industry, entitled their presentation 'Re‑defining Diversity in the 21st Century'.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16659             The fact is we will continue to re‑define diversity for many years to come.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16660             MR. DE SILVA:  Semantics matters aside, we would like to define our core concerns as they pertain to opportunities for visible minority professionals working primarily in English in the mainstream of the industry.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16661             And what do we mean by that?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16662             Simply that we would like to have access to adequate budgets on a consistent basis to make our programming attractive to viewers used to high‑quality drama in prime time.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16663             In the chairman's opening remarks he identified three key issues for these hearings.  I think we all know them by heart by now.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16664             We would like to respectfully add a fourth which is a key issue for us.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16665             It is the diversity of ownership as it pertains to visible minorities and the resulting opportunities of employment that would flow at all levels.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16666             The questions have been raised as to why ownership is important.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16667             One very important reason is the right to fully participate in the economy of the country in an industry that is growing rapidly and is more and more becoming an integral part of the global economy.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16668             The other is that there is a direct correlation between ownership and commitment to the community one belongs to, which invariably is reflected programming.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16669             Denham Jolly, the founder of Flow Radio, and Shan Chandrashekar, both of whom have been referenced at these hearings ‑ Shan of Asian Television Networks ‑ are two very good examples of this.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16670             We acknowledge the important role of third language, news, lifestyle and community programming which, we believe, is presently being well‑served by channels such as OMNI 1 and 2 in Toronto and Channel M in Vancouver and several third‑language pay services.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16671             Our primary concern today is in dealing ‑ certainly from the CDPA ‑ is dealing with the issue of having adequate financial resources to tell stories in English, reflecting the interests and experiences of new immigrants, second‑ and third‑generation Canadians of visible minority and ethno‑cultural communities and of ethno‑cultural backgrounds whose primary language is English and who want to consistently, consistently, watch drama programs that reflect their interests and realities.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16672             The key word here is 'consistent'.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16673             The Commissioners have already heard about fragility in a system that dependents on benefits programs for new and innovative drama content.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16674             A good example of this is Metropia, produced by Toronto‑based independent producer, Protocol, for OMNI.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16675             MS SCARLETT:  We realize that this is a complex issue involving market realities, the high cost of production, the popularity of American programming and the reliance by private broadcasters on this kind of programming for their profits.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16676             Given the unique nature of the economics of Canadian television, and the challenges faced by broadcasters and independent producers alike in producing Canadian drama, as defined in the recently‑released Dunbar‑Leblanc Report, it is clear that we need a new model of financing for Canadian drama that can only come from direct intervention from the CRTC.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16677             For visible minorities facing systemic barriers (which have been acknowledged by several interveners, including ACTRA and the Canadian Media Guild), as well as the market realities faced by all independent producers and media professionals, change will be a very long time in coming.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16678             MR. DE SILVA:  Despite well‑intentioned initiatives by the CRTC, including the requirements for broadcasters to report on their diversity initiatives and file diversity plans, and efforts by individuals at various broadcasters over the past 30 years to increase the inclusion and participation of visible minorities, changes unfortunately have been marginal at best.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16679             Why have these initiatives proved to be so slow in creating any meaningful change?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16680             Because the problem is systemic and, without consistent and measurable requirements (similar to the MAPLE rules in radio), little progress will be made.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16681             With regards to the recent consolidation in the television sector, it would appear that three senior executive from visible minority communities in English‑language mainstream networks have lost their positions as a direct result of consolidation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16682             This is of concern to us as there are, perhaps, only two other senior visible minority executives in the entire mainstream system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16683             There are several implications, including the lost of diverse perspectives at senior management levels and the decrease in the already low levels of individuals who could serve as role models to the next generation of emerging media professionals.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16684             MS SCARLETT:  Having established our concerns, we would like to make four specific recommendations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16685             They are the following:

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16686             1) The CRTC require broadcasters to provide specific information about hiring in front of and behind the camera, in‑house and independent productions in their annual diversity reports.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16687             Currently, it is up to the broadcasters to decide what they would like to include in their reports.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16688             2) The CRTC suggest realistic targets based on their evaluations of the reports with regards to diversity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16689             3) The CRTC make it a priority that minority‑owned channels be adequately funded to produce original high‑quality Canadian programming with an emphasis on drama as it is the most popular form of television.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16690             Ideally, a mechanism should be created in consultation with the BDUs.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16691             MR. DE SILVA:  4) That the CRTC undertake a comprehensive research study which could incorporate studies recently done by Women in Film and Television, the CAB, the Nordicity study on visible minority presence in independently‑produced CTF‑funded drama and other studies relating to the marginalization of visible minorities in Canadian society.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16692             5) That the CRTC encourage broadcasters to allocate 20 per cent of their spending on independent production for productions that have two out of four (that is, producer, director, writer, lead actor) representation from visible minority communities in order to ensure consistent minimum levels of inclusion in key creative roles.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16693             In conclusion, in a broadcasting system that is regulated as it should be ‑ the airwaves after all do belong to the people ‑ the onus is on the regulator to regulate.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16694             The CRTC has the tools under the broadcast act to bring about meaningful change that will result in a truer reflection of Canada as it is today.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16695             The question, with all respect, is:  Does it have the desire and the will?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16696             We are optimistic that it does, and we believe that Canada will be a richer and strong country because of it.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16697             We thank the Commission for this opportunity of presenting our viewpoints and our recommendations, and we welcome your questions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16698             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16699             We will now proceed with Ms Magda de la Torre.  If you could please introduce your colleague, you will then have ten minutes for your presentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16700             Thank you.

INTERVENTION

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16701             MS de la TORRE:  Good morning.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16702             Thank you, Madame Boulet.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16703             Good morning, Mr. Chairman, the CRTC Commissioners, Commission staff and ladies and gentlemen.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16704             Thank you for the opportunity to share our thoughts with all of you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16705             My name is Magda de la Torre, on behalf of a company to be incorporated, representing CANCON Diversity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16706             This morning, Doug Kirk, President of Durham Radio, will join us.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16707             Our title is:  Diversity of Voices Hearing, our Last Chance until January 24, 2012.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16708             Thirty years ago, November 1977, the CRTC requested 790 AM, Brampton, to cancel the three‑hour show The Saturday Night Musical Recipe, a multicultural radio show, produced by Peter Goudas, from Goudas Foods, for not complying and enforcing the 50 per cent Canadian content in their show.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16709             The CRTC, the CANCON percentage, the number of diversity residents in Canada and the radio industry as a whole has changed drastically in the last 30 years.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16710             What has not evolved proportionally is the lack of representation and exposure that the diverse communities and the CANCON diversity members receive from the Canadian airwaves.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16711             We commend the CRTC for this much‑needed hearing, but we ask ourselves if maybe it isn't too late.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16712             The latest amalgamations within the broadcasting industry have created a controlled situation by a few major players that only drastic, strong and carefully sought out measures will make a difference.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16713             The diversity spectrum in Canada is not the same as it was 30 years ago and 'all our airwaves' have to reflect this diversity phenomenon of today.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16714             Is the CRTC able and willing to make the changes and uphold 'safeguarding and enriching the cultural, political, social and economic fabric of Canada'?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16715             The results of this hearing and the changes to the regulations will be a part of the Canada where in several Canadian cities the visible minorities have become visible majorities.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16716             Will those majorities be properly represented?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16717             The future is in your hands, the Chairman and Commissioners of the CRTC.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16718             The plurality of commercial editorial voices in local and national markets.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16719             Well, we know we already lost 280 journalists when CTV announced purchasing CHUM, and personally I was producing a 'Spanglish' show in Energy 108 when Shaw purchased the station and the first two shows cancelled where the two offering 'plurality'.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16720             The 'Spanglish' and the 'Caribbean & World Music', although the BBM ratings for the 'Spanglish' show were number one in 12 plus.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16721             The industry as a whole has to change their mandates and their visions to recognize and foster plurality of voices in every aspect ‑ commercial, editorial and singing voices (what we are protecting and promoting).

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16722             SOCAN did.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16723             Back in July 18, 2007 we wrote, in our comments, for the Review of Commercial Radio Regulations:

                      "SOCAN collects royalties and distributes payments to artists performing third‑language music, but . it is not monitored or accounted."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16724             MS de la TORRE:  Today, only two months later, the SOCAN membership application, reads:

                      "English, French of Other."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16725             MS de la TORRE:  Now, there is a plurality, and it is measured.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16726             Like this, every media, local and national, should amend their services to include the diverse plurality residing in Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16727             Enclosed is a list of the Broadcast Dialogue radio stations in the GTA for your perusal and maybe your comments.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16728             Mr. O'Farrell, talking for the Canadian broadcasters, said:

                      "We are celebrating the surplus of diversity and the surplus of plurality."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16729             MS de la TORRE:  There is a plurality of commercial voices in the Toronto market.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16730             Two definitions for plurality.  'The state or fact of being plural.'  'A large number or amount.'

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16731             But nobody is talking about the plurality of opinions, the plurality of backgrounds that will bring different opinions or the plurality of the diversity of countries living in Canada that each of them has journalists with opinions about the perspectives of Canadians on local, national and global affairs.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16732             The most effective way to ensure that all Canadians are exposed to an appropriate plurality of these voices is via 'diversity owners and/or managers' and, even then, sometimes it does not work.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16733             The second adjacency is, like this hearing, our last chance and our only hope.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16734             With already two second adjacencies working in Toronto and one just licensed in Montreal we will welcome any other second adjacencies and, with diversity and plurality, try to balance the airwaves.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16735             Doug?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16736             MR. KIRK:  Thank you, Magda.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16737             Chairman, Commissioners, Commission staff and ladies and gentlemen, thank you for the opportunity to contribute to this proceeding.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16738             I am Doug Kirk and I own independent radio stations in Oshawa and Hamilton, Ontario.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16739             I accepted Magda's invitation to join you just to articulate a couple of key points on our vision of diversity of ownership and programming, which better serve the Canadian populace.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16740             Now, last year, I was here and participated in the Review of Radio with the Ontario Independent Radio (OIRG) presentation, and, without restating that presentation, let me just refresh a couple of the key conditions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16741             Onr is that in our view the Canadian radio industry is two‑tiered.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16742             The major 14 markets are substantially dominated by the big six players, and that could be five soon.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16743             And those markets have over 60 per cent of Canada's radio revenue and three quarter of the profitability.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16744             The large groups continue to be moved by what I call the gravitational force of consolidation.  They just get bigger and continue to get bigger.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16745             And, you know, their view and reason is to grow and increase profitability and basically return, as a lot of them are public companies or major private aggregations of capital.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16746             This continues in the CHUM/CTV thing already done, Astral/Standard in the works, CanWest having sold its stations to Corus, privates stations such as The Beat in Vancouver to CTV.  This continues on.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16747             The large operators want to continue to grow and increase profits.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16748             I believe that, if the Commission wants diversity of ownership and programming, it can do that by licensing new and emerging owners.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16749             Similarly, musical genres are, I think, best portrayed to the public by owners which have first‑hand knowledge and experience in the music.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16750             I would just leave you with those two points, and Magda will finish and certainly take questions later.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16751             MS de la TORRE:  Regulations and/or guidelines?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16752             The answer is in your hands, the Chairman and Commissioners of the CRTC.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16753             The diversity of programming choices offered to Canadians and the effectiveness of existing or proposed regulatory tools in ensuring appropriate diversity of content.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16754             Back in 2004, the Commission, on diversity, identified two clear objectives:

                      "The broadcasting system should be a mirror in which all Canadians can see themselves.  The broadcasting system should be the one in which producers, writers, technicians and artists from different cultural and social perspectives have the opportunity to create a variety of programming and to develop their skills." (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16755             MS de la TORRE:  Except for the ethnic or community stations, almost all of the other Canadian media ignores diversity in their programming.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16756             Our producers, writers, technicians and artists do not have a proportionally represented voice in the Canadian airwaves.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16757             But, yes, once again, Mr. O'Farrell is celebrating the surplus of diversity and the surplus of plurality.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16758             Two definitions for diversity:

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16759             Diversity is the presence of a range of variations in the qualities or attributes under discussion.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16760             Diversity is the term used to describe the relative uniqueness of each individual in the population.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16761             Mr. O'Farrell is definitely using the first description.  And he is right.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16762             Our OBCI is full of producers, writers, technicians and artists that do not have a voice in the Canadian airwaves.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16763             Frustrated, yes.  Energy to keep struggling to achieve something in our new country, yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16764             Our plans are big and full of surprises.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16765             We have already sealed an agreement with Woofur, a radio by people for people, created to cater to people between the ages of 12 to 54 with interests ranging from independent music to genres of mainstream music not easily accessible on the local radio airplay.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16766             It didn't come out.  It is www.woofur.com.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16767             Together, we will create a voice for Diversity Indies in every genre and in every language.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16768             During Canadian Music Week we will host a Diversity Day on Saturday and are planning to ask FACTOR, Radio Starmaker Fund/Fonds Radiostar and MusicAction to train our members to apply for funding and that evening we will host a Latin Rock Show.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16769             Finally, as our long‑term plan, we have our Canadian Diversity Idol converted into the Canadian Diversity Star, as idols sometimes are forgotten but stars will shine forever.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16770             The CCD, Canadian Content Development initiatives, as described in the CRTC Public Notice, has to be accessible to Canadian diversity members and the broadcasters will only assist diversity members if there is a definite mandate and percentage stipulated by the CRTC.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16771             This is logical as their stations do not promote or air this kind of programming or music.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16772             Regulations and/or guidelines?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16773             The answer is in your hands, the Chairman and Commissioners of the CRTC.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16774             Attached please find paragraphs from the University of Calgary comments that we all found very true.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16775             Also enclosed are four letters from our members Canadian Unity Press, Billy Bryan, Radames Nieves and Lula Lounge.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16776             The effectiveness of existing choices offered to Canadians and the effectiveness of content in cross‑media ownership situations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16777             Our comments on this issue will be sent prior to October 5 after we do a thorough study in the matter.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16778             We would like to finish our comments with a thought taken from the 'diversity of apples':

                      "To conserve these varieties is to conserve genetic diversity, and conserving diversity is more than a question of nostalgia and taste, it is a question of the future of the fruit." (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16779             MS de la TORRE:  This is our future and it is in your hands.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16780             Canada is a leader in diversity and your actions assure us that our future will be better, in a country that dares to be different, our Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16781             I am looking forward to any questions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16782             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16783             I would like to, first of all, ask the Canadian Diversity Producers Association.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16784             I looked at your four points ‑ or five point, sorry.  And you start off, you are really focusing, if I understand it, very much, not in terms only of diversity of broadcasting, but also of diversity of employment in the broadcasting industry.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16785             And your special focus happens to be, if I understood you correctly, English broadcast based on an ethnic origin.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16786             And then you say, in your recommendation number one, you should require specific information about the hiring in front of and behind camera by broadcasters.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16787             Then number two says:

                      "The CRTC suggest realistic targets based on their evaluation of the reports with regards to diversity."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16788             I wonder whether you could explain to me what you mean by realistic targets.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16789             I mean, I gather, number one, that we get a report from each broadcaster and it would show who they employ before and behind camera.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16790             Now, having got that data, it is over to us to set realistic targets.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16791             What do you expect us to do?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16792             MR. DE SILVA:  Well, the suggestion, Mr. Chairman, would be for a process that would take place at the CRTC, in consultation with the broadcaster, to, based on what their revenues are, what their production targets are, what the independent production side of their business is, is to suggest what it could or should be.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16793             We are not suggesting at this point that any mandatory or order should be issued, but the process to be started to evaluated what would be ideal for those broadcasters to aspire to.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16794             At the moment, from what I understand, there is process of establishing particular targets or goals or anything like that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16795             So that would be what we would suggest ‑ that, that process be engaged.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16796             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And the goal is:  the process of engaged targets are established, and then, as a result of that, the programming will reflect the diversity that you have created through those targets within the broadcasters employment ranks before or behind the camera.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16797             MR. DE SILVA:  Correct.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16798             THE CHAIRPERSON:  OK.  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16799             And, Mrs. de la Torre, you say something very similar in point 20 on page 2.  You say:

                      "The most effective way to ensure that all Canadians are exposed to an appropriate plurality of these voices is via 'diversity owners and/or managers."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16800             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is this ‑ I mean, that is a fairly strong statement.  Is this based on some sort of studies or is this your conviction?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16801             MS de la TORRE:  Well, it is my conviction.  But, besides that, it is, if I analyze what all the broadcasters have been doing and how they have been working, there is always some kind of diversity background on the ones that ‑ although, because I can mention one or two that ‑ they do it on their own.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16802             And I wish all of them were like those one or two.  But some of them take of the money or think of the money that it will bring, and that is where I see that maybe something by the CRTC will make them work.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16803             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Why does the market not do that?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16804             I would have thought, if there is a market for visible programming, a visible minority program, ethnic program, language program, et cetera ‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16805             MS de la TORRE:  Yeah.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16806             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑ owners would go after it regardless of their background.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16807             By the same token, ethnic owners, if they can make a bigger buck by producing traditional programming rather than ethnic programming, would go after that too.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16808             Why do you suggest that there is a link between a person's ethnicity and the programming?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16809             MS de la TORRE:  I will talk about myself personally.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16810             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16811             MS de la TORRE:  I had a program at Energy 108, and when Shaw bought it we were ‑ by BBM, not me talking ‑ we were the number one in 12 plus.  We were already bringing money to the station.  And we were out.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16812             But Shaw was wise enough at that time to see the possibilities on the ethnicity and started to by Telelatino.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16813             THE CHAIRPERSON:

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16814             MS de la TORRE:  When they first approached Telelatino, Telelatino said:  OK, so can we be in your BDU?  And they said:  Until you sign you cannot be with the BDU.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16815             So they signed first.  Then they took the 51 per cent.  And now it is 100 per cent.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16816             Shaw ‑ and I am only talking about Shaw because that it is the only that is mine.  I have been there.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16817             If you analyzed the community members that work within Shaw, that is making a lot of money with Telelatino, the only program that is live is a Cuban that lives in Miami and comes here once a month, does four shows, tapes four shows, and goes back.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16818             That is the only live program that there is.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16819             So I can focus on Shaw and say that Shaw is one of the stations that will only work with diversity if it brings them money.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16820             There are other stations that work with diversity without that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16821             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  OK.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16822             Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16823             MR. KIRK:  Could I just make a comment?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16824             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Absolutely.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16825             MR. KIRK:  I think your point has a broader point.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16826             Say, in the radio business, for example, why aren't there more niche‑oriented or, say, a Caribbean‑oriented radio station?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16827             And part of it, I think, is just the supply problem. Certainly in major cities, in comparison to, say, U.S. markets, there are fewer frequencies available.  And the economic model wins out.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16828             So, rock stations and country and adult contemporary stations take the pecking order down, and you are basically out of channels before some of these smaller niches get satisfied.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16829             So, I think that is the point you have heard in other presentations this week, and we are certainly re‑emphasizing it to say:  You know, if you can licence more to serve, particularly in big markets, those niches will get filled.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16830             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Isn't that a numbers' game?  When you have a sufficient number from one language or from one ethnic group, then in effect it becomes very lucrative to serve them and you will have people going up to that market.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16831             MR. KIRK:  Yes.  I think that has happened. Certainly the growth of the ethnic broadcasting business in Canada is a tribute to that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16832             I think now it is getting to bringing other world of music to ‑ other genres of music into the market, where there just isn't room at this point to add a lot of new stations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16833             THE CHAIRPERSON:  OK.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16834             Rita, you have some questions?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16835             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16836             Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16837             Good morning.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16838             Ms de la Torre, I will follow up with you to begin with, and then I will have some questions for you, Mr. De Silva and Ms Scarlett.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16839             What were the reasons that Shaw gave you for cancelling the show?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16840             MS de la TORRE:  No reasons.  They are they owners.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16841             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  They just came in one day and said:  Your show is gone even though it is number.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16842             MS de la TORRE:  A letter.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16843             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And how did your advertisers react?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16844             MS de la TORRE:  They were not with them anymore because what they wanted was this Spanglish show.  So.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16845             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So, your advertisers, did they protest to Shaw?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16846             MS de la TORRE:  Yeah, but it doesn't matter.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16847             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  It didn't change their minds at all.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16848             MS de la TORRE:  Oh, no.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16849             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You talked about Canadian content development initiatives has to be accessible to Canadian diversity members, and broadcasters will only assist diversity members if there is a definite mandate and percentage stipulated by the CRTC.  That was in your oral presentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16850             Did you make a presentation to Astral when the Astral standard deal was announced, for example?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16851             MS de la TORRE:  No, I didn't.  No, I didn't.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16852             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  OK.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16853             Do you have a process in place, you know, with your partners, that ‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16854             MS de la TORRE: Yes, we are going to do that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16855             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  ‑ could enable you to do that in the future ‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16856             MS de la TORRE:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16857             COMMISSIONER CUGINI: ‑ because perhaps that is an approach to take?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16858             MS de la TORRE:  I have to say something about Astral.  I don't live in Montreal, but Astral is one of the broadcasters that without ‑ only out of the neighbours and the people that hear Astral, are very good at giving airplay to diversity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16859             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Perhaps, at licence renewal time, which there has to be commitment, that is somthing that you could consider.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16860             MS de la TORRE:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16861             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Making a formal present.  Perhaps to sponsor your Canadian diversity star.

‑‑‑ Laughter

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16862             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I like what you said about star, not idol.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16863             Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16864             Mr. De Silva, your association, how many members do you currently have?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16865             MR. DE SILVA:  We currently have about 50.  Roughly 50 members across the country.  With a growing membership.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16866             We were hoping to actually announce the availability of our website, our revamped website, which would give you further details (www.cdpaonline.ca).

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16867             It is currently being revamped by one of our members in Vancouver.  And maybe by the end of the day we can give you that information.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16868             That would give you much more information about the CDPA's membership.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16869             But roughly about 50.  And we will be ‑ we have a target, Patricia, probably of about 150 ‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16870             MS SCARLETT:  Yeah.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16871             MR. DE SILVA:  ‑ by the end of ‑ by the end of the year.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16872             We are a fairly new organization.  And, as you can imagine, with trying to ramp up with resources, et cetera, it has been challenging for us.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16873             But there is a tremendous amount of interest in terms of joining.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16874             And, when we first launched in Banff, in 2005, there was sort of a ground swell.  And.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16875             That is the quick answer.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16876             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you have a criteria for membership.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16877             MR. DE SILVA:  Pat can actually ‑ we have got a fairly detailed criteria, actually.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16878             MS SCARLETT:  Anyone who is self‑identified as, you know, of certain ethnic background, be it cultural or racial, in fact, can become members of the organization.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16879             MR. DE SILVA:  Sorry.  Just a clarification, Madame Cugini, were you asking in terms of eligibility for membership or what is the range in terms of membership?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16880             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Eligibility for membership.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16881             MS SCARLETT:  Yeah.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16882             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So the producer has to be a visible minority or from an ethno‑cultural background.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16883             MS SCARLETT:  Self‑identified, yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16884             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Self‑identified.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16885             MR. DE SILVA:  We are also opening it to associate members.  So anyone of good will or interest in the issue who would like to be a part of the association can be.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16886             We are just sort of sorting out what the language will be for that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16887             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So, if there is someone who is not self‑identified but has produced or wants to produce programs that reflect diversity, they can become an associate member.  Not a full member.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16888             MS SCARLETT:  Correct.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16889             MR. DE SILVA:  Correct.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16890             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  OK.  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16891             On the bottom of page three of your oral presentation, you say you would like to have access to adequate funding ‑ to adequate budgets ‑ on a consistent basis.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16892             We hear from the guilds all the time.  We hear from producers all the time.  We hear from ACTRA.  And they have the same concerns that you do.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16893             Is your concern more unique than theirs?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16894             MR. DE SILVA:  You were reaching for your microphone, Patricia.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16895             MS SCARLETT:  Go ahead.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16896             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Have you rehearsed this answer?

‑‑‑ Laughter/Rires

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16897             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Just kidding.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16898             MR. DE SILVA:  No.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16899             But we face the question, I think, on many occasions in different venues.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16900             I think obviously we face the same issues.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16901             It is an industry‑wide concern.  You have heard, you know, obviously, as you said, ACTRA.  Anybody who is an independent producer knows the issues of the scarcity of resources.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16902             So we face the same issues.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16903             However, we face additional issues of systemic nature in terms of the fact that, if the opportunities, for instances, for, let us just say, writers, to work on shows that didn't have any diversity content ‑ you know, for many, many years, they didn't have the opportunity to develop their skills.  Likewise for directors.  Or for actors.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16904             So we know.  There have been numerous studies that talk about marginalization of visible minorities in the overall economic system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16905             And the same thing applies to our industry.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16906             In addition to the problems facing independent producers and actors and all creative people, visible minorities and members from ethno‑cultural communities face additional systemic problems that make it even harder.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16907             I think, if you spoke, even to people who have achieved, you know, a fairly high level of recognition and achievement in the industry, people like Deepa Mehta, for instance, that we all know from her wonderful films, will say very directly that there are issues that visible minorities face that are unique and additional to the ones that are faced by mainstream producers.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16908             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  One of the things that broadcasters always demonstrate to us is, when they want to commission a producer to produce a certain program or in their ‑ the term escapes me.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16909             But, in their criteria for engaging an independent producer, they always highlight the clause in there that says that the productions ‑ you know, that the producers must endeavour to reflect diversity as much as possible.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16910             Are you saying that, that is just simply not enough on the part of broadcasters to put that in their documents?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16911             MS SCARLETT:  The answer is yes, in that, in more instances than not, what ends up happening is that the actual ownership of the production is by another company that brings in talent.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16912             And often time people at a fairly junior level that may get to work on that one project, but it may be a long time before they ever get to work on anything again.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16913             So there is no consistency.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16914             It is like any skill that you develop and you want to gain mastery over.  You have to work at it all the time.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16915             And this is not to say that all producers do not experience this challenge of being able to work consistently.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16916             But, because there are so few projects that are created where people of visible minority can work behind and in front of the camera, the challenge is even greater.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16917             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Just one final area that I want to touch up, which the Chair already has, and that is your second recommendation where you talk about realistic targets.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16918             Mr. De Silva, you know very well about the CAB's taskforce report on cultural diversity, and that taskforce spent two years, just about, talking to broadcasters and to community groups and to representatives of visible minority groups, persons with disabilities, representatives from all four of the designated groups, and the taskforce heard consistently that setting targets or quotas is akin to affirmative action.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16919             And we all know the criticism of affirmative action.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16920             Are you not basically asking us to take affirmative action here, in your recommendation number two?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16921             MR. DE SILVA:  Well, I think what we are asking ‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16922             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And five, thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16923             MR. DE SILVA:  I think what we are asking is for the Commission to recognize the fact that there is a real problem here.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16924             And, until you recognize that there is a problem, you won't take any measures to rectify that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16925             And the real problem is the. I was trying to use the word 'massive'.  But the considerable under‑representation and the continuing under‑representation despite all the efforts of reporting and initiatives, the problem being that the initiatives are not consistent for the representation of visible minorities at all levels.  Ownership levels.  Representation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16926             I believe the CAB study focused primarily on representation in the industry in terms on on‑camera.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16927             But the problem is much larger than that if the producers and the owners of the system aren't participating in that system.  They are not going to commission programs that require actors, people on camera.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16928             So it becomes a systemic problem that needs a particular ‑ you know, a very strong response.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16929             Now, I know the work 'affirmative action'.  I used to work for the Human Rights Commission in Ontario.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16930             At that time, the word 'affirmative action' was in favor, I suppose, because felt that those measures were required.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16931             It has gone out of favor.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16932             There are concerns that, by setting quotas, we are in fact doing reverse discrimination, et cetera.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16933             But we all, you know, in all our public policy in government, we do set quotas. We do set targets.  We do realize that if we want to solve a problem we have to take direct action.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16934             So whatever terminology that is used to encourage, to assist the industry ‑ because I think, you know, for instance, in radio, unless those targets were set for Canadian production, we wouldn't have a thriving industry today.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16935             You could have called that affirmative action.  I imagine it was.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16936             So, if we say that, in a similar way the CRTC took action on the radio side for Canadian music production, which was very successful, in that same vein, we would recommend that the CRTC do the same thing.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16937             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  One thing that surprises me about this is that you are asking us basically to exclusively play a numbers game when it comes to representation of visible minorities, whether it is behind the camera or in front of the camera, when during those two years of the taskforce report, and as you know I was part of that taskforce, one of the major elements was portrayal, rather than a numbers' game, where I would rather see one positive role model than 100 stereotypes of a certain ethnic group or visible minority group.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16938             And yet you don't speak at all in your presentation about portrayal.  You focus exclusively on a numbers' game.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16939             MR. DE SILVA:  I think because ‑ as you say, I think the CAB study did a very good job of portrayal, but I think the point we were repeating, or making, is that portrayal on camera ‑‑ and I think, if you look at the Nordicity study, which looked at portrayal, a study done by Solutions Research, it showed that while portrayal has increased, it is really in the background roles of busboys, girl Fridays, waiters in restaurants.  The secondary roles really have increased, and very, very little in terms of primary roles.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16940             So while portrayal is important, for us, in terms of our members, who are producers primarily, it is the opportunities that exist behind the camera, not just in front of the camera, in terms of the access we have to resources for producing television series and feature films, the things that Canadians want to watch, and the programming that really tells the story about us being part of society.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16941             So portrayal is important, but who gets to tell the stories and participate in the overall benefits of the industry is, if not as important, more important.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16942             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16943             Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, those are my questions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16944             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Stuart, I believe you have a question.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16945             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes, I have a couple of more questions, following up, if I may, on Ms Cugini's questions as to the end result you want ‑‑ the goal on portrayal.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16946             Acting on the assumption that there is strength in numbers ‑‑ the bigger your organization is, the louder its voice will be ‑‑ it seems to me that you have, in my view, unnecessarily narrowed the membership list, and I wondered about that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16947             If I wrote it down correctly ‑‑ I took some notes as you were speaking ‑‑ "self‑identified, ethnic background, cultural or racial" was basically the formula, and yet, in your text, you speak of other groups that would have comparable complaints, I assume ‑‑ handicapped people, blind people ‑‑ well, that's a type of handicap ‑‑ people who feel discriminated against because of age or gender or sexual orientation or whatever, and I just wondered why you wouldn't broaden the group.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16948             If what you are trying to do is get your voice heard and get some fairness in the system, why so narrow a focus?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16949             MS SCARLETT:  We did add later, in fact, other people who had issues concerning diversity.  They were also invited to be part of the organization.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16950             Our core focus was on the ones that we identified, but it was certainly open to others to join.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16951             For example, people with disabilities, people of different sexual orientation, fine, they could join, but that was not the core mandate of the organization.

`                COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  If I understood you correctly, they get a kind of associate membership, they don't get full membership.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16952             MS SCARLETT:  It is not unlike WIFT.  Men may become associate members, but it is a women's organization.

`                COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Right.  In that sense, if I join WIFT, it is because I support it but don't expect to get anything more out of it than a better world overall, because I am not a woman.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16953             MS SCARLETT:  Sure.

`                COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But if I am handicapped and join an organization like yours, I, too, might expect to be seen on screen, and I, too, might hope that you would broaden your focus.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16954             So I would get more than a better world, I would get a better world for me, too, as well as overall.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16955             MS SCARLETT:  My comments were not with regard to inclusion in terms of productions but in terms of participation in the organization itself, and the mandate of the organization is to provide training and professional development for all members of the association, whether or not they are self‑identified, visible minorities, et cetera.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16956             MR. DE SILVA:  If I may add, Commissioner Langford, I think you raise a very interesting point, as well.  This is a dilemma that, I think, many organizations face, where to focus their energies.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16957             We are very aware and are quite engaged and connected with people in the disability movement.  I was the executive producer for a television series for the CBC on disability called "D‑Net", and many of my close friends are involved in the disability movement.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16958             This is a dilemma for us:  where do we put our scarce resources, and how do we most effectively work on behalf of our members.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16959             It is an evolving thing.  There is no question about it that strength in numbers, which is always effective, is what we seek, and we will be looking for ways to incorporate that as much as possible in our organization.

`                COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Maybe even get aging White gentlemen like me, who find they just aren't wanted in the movies any more.  I might join.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16960             MR. DE SILVA:  I don't think the statistics bear that out, quite frankly, Commissioner Langford.

`                COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, I am not willing to undergo a sex change, so there goes the career.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

`                COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I have one other question.  Are you carrying this campaign, if I may call it that, to other fora?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16961             In other words, you have come to us, the regulator, and, clearly, you are probably going to government, as well, in other ways, but what about journalism schools and schools that teach cinematography and teach film and stuff?  Are you putting the pressure on them, as well?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16962             Obviously, if you don't get trained people, they are going to have a harder time getting a job.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16963             MS SCARLETT:  Yes, we will be approaching, certainly, some of the tertiary institutions that teach television and film.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16964             Through the organization we are developing an extensive training and professional development program, and one of the first initiatives that we have created is something we are calling "The Inside Series", which is a networking opportunity.  It takes the format of inside the actors' studio.  We will invite people from various independent production companies to come into this forum, where they are interviewed, and other members of the film and television production community, in fact, can get to know them better, as well as some of the things they are producing.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16965             In fact, our website is being set up to create a nationwide online community of independent filmmakers.

`                COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.  Those are my questions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16966             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  I think those are our questions.  Thank you for your contribution.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16967             MR. DE SILVA:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16968             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Boulet?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16969             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16970             I will now invite the next two intervenors to come forward, the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network Incorporated and the Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc.

‑‑‑ Pause

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16971             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning, Mr. LaRose.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16972             MR. LAROSE:  Good morning.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16973             THE SECRETARY:  Mr. LaRose, we will start with your presentation.  You will have ten minutes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16974             Please, go ahead.

INTERVENTION

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16975             MR. LAROSE:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16976             Good morning, Chairperson von Finckenstein and Commissioners.  I am Jean LaRose, Chief Executive Officer of Aboriginal Peoples Television Network.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16977             Thank you for the invitation to appear at this hearing.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16978             It has been a full week, so I will get straight to the point.  Let me discuss first how the CRTC has had a huge impact on the diversity of voices and Aboriginal peoples' participation in broadcasting.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16979             What is the source of this impact?  It's quite simple:  direct regulation by the CRTC.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16980             Three elements of the CRTC's regulation of APTN have been absolutely critical to our success.  First, APTN's national licence translates into a mandate to serve southern Canada as well as the north, which has resulted directly in more diversity in the programming that APTN brings to air compared to our predecessor, TVNC.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16981             Second, APTN would not have achieved the level of distribution that we have without the benefit of the CRTC's Section 9.1(h) Distribution Order.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16982             Third, APTN's regulated wholesale fee has become a stable source of continued funding for APTN, which APTN spends directly and entirely to increase the participation of Aboriginal peoples in the broadcasting system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16983             Each of these elements depends on the CRTC's direct intervention under the Broadcasting Act.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16984             This kind of regulation is not a relic of the past, as the Commission sometimes hears people say.  For Aboriginal peoples, this kind of regulation is a foundation for the future.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16985             I can tell you that the internet and mobile broadcasting look completely different from the vantage point of an established broadcaster than they do for someone who is not already in the industry.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16986             Our renewal in 2005 was also significant, in that it has allowed us to take greater advantage of the opportunity we now have.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16987             We are developing strong partnerships with other broadcasters, and producing new, higher budget drama series, which would have been impossible to consider in our first term.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16988             We have established credibility and recognition within the industry, and, more importantly, a growing audience of viewers.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16989             This would never have been possible without the intervention and support of the regulator.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16990             From our perspective and from the perspective of all Aboriginal peoples, increasing industry consolidation is somewhat less significant than the launch and support of APTN as a means for our own participation in the system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16991             Also, we do not view a level of industry consolidation as being necessarily a bad thing for APTN or Aboriginal peoples.  Canada needs strong media companies.  To some extent, consolidation can present opportunities for smaller entities like APTN.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16992             We already have expertise in reaching a fast‑growing sector of the audience that is becoming one of interest to Canada's corporate players.  I believe that those who ignore APTN and our audience are being shortsighted, and some media executives I have spoken to share this belief.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16993             Our point is just that the participation of Aboriginal peoples in the broadcasting system owes a great deal to direct regulatory intervention by the CRTC.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16994             The voices that oppose this kind of intervention and call it unnecessary are more troubling to us than industry consolidation on its own.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16995             While we don't see industry consolidation as one of the most pressing issues for Aboriginal peoples, we fully support the Commission's effort to encourage the greatest possible diversity of voices in the system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16996             We are not, as a broadcaster, indifferent to consolidation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16997             We need more than just a couple of strong broadcasters, and we need more than just a couple of distributors in Canada.  We especially need them to operate in an environment where the rules are clear and the policy objectives are well spelled out.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16998             Competition between media enterprises translates into a competition of ideas, and getting the best information out to the public in the best way possible.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16999             We feel this kind of competition every day at APTN, and I am confident that every other media enterprise experiences something similar.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17000             Looking at the role of the independent production community, we have found that independent production has been the surest way to bring diversity into the system in a direct way.  Until APTN, Aboriginal independent producers had few outlets and very scarce resources.  APTN has helped to grow this sector and to produce programs for broadcast on APTN and on the commercial networks with Aboriginal points of view that would not otherwise have been seen.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17001             The Commission is correct to encourage independent production as one of the most direct means of ensuring that the system taps into a wide range of voices.  Too much reliance on in‑house production by broadcasters could have a significant negative impact on independent production overall.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17002             In our case, for example, there is seldom a show produced by an independent Aboriginal producer that does not rely on licence fees from another broadcaster.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17003             If those other broadcasters stopped relying as much on independent producers, the opportunities for Aboriginal independent producers would decrease, as would APTN's ability to trigger those productions and present the same diversity of voices.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17004             While APTN does not oppose a degree of industry consolidation, we would not go to an extreme length and suggest that there is no cause for concern or intervention in these areas.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17005             The Commission needs to ensure that opportunities for entry in our system remain open, and to put forward policies to encourage the greatest possible diversity of voices and viewpoints.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17006             The Commission has been exploring a number of mechanisms that the Commission might use to look at media consolidation and promote diversity.  Let me be upfront:  I don't have the answer for you.  But, if you don't mind, I will review some of the principles that could be taken into consideration, from our perspective at APTN.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17007             First, the Commission should be concerned about ownership concentration in the broadcasting industry and across other major forms of media, such as the print media.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17008             Some have said, in effect, that there is no concern about consolidation and cross‑ownership, but we believe those views are overstated.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17009             Second, we need strong media enterprises, but the control of multiple, influential media outlets should be accompanied by a responsibility to promote editorial diversity across those outlets and elsewhere in the system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17010             Third, the benefits that are proposed in connection with merger transactions should be benefits that encourage a diversity of voices in the consolidated enterprise and elsewhere in the system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17011             If the Commission does away with tangible benefits, then the Commission should develop more secure and transparent mechanisms to support diversity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17012             Fourth, as the market power of participants increases with consolidation, the Commission should implement direct regulatory safeguards to protect those that have less power but are important to preserve a diversity of voices.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17013             In the area of tangible benefits, for example, we have proposed that the CRTC's benefits policy in the television sector should be structured to promote diversity.  We have suggested a one‑third, one‑third and one‑third approach.  An entity proposing benefits would allocate one‑third to independent production funds, one‑third to support broadcasting initiatives designed by the applicant, and the remaining one‑third to areas of the Commission's priority to promote diversity of voices.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17014             Naturally, APTN believes that initiatives that support the participation of Aboriginal peoples in the system, who have been and, I would argue, remain the most marginalized and invisible in mainstream commercial television, should be a part of the benefits that promote a diversity of voices.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17015             We also believe that it is important that benefits that are directed to promote Aboriginal participation should be administered, as much as possible, by Aboriginal peoples themselves.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17016             Regarding the question of market power and consolidation, we have pointed out in our written submission that one area where APTN has been disadvantaged due to the market power of some large integrated BDUs is our channel placement.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17017             I was pleased to see that the Dunbar/Leblanc Report brought that issue back on the radar screen.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17018             That is the type of regulatory area that the Commission could use to level the impact of media consolidation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17019             We know the Commission will soon be looking at the BDU regulatory environment, and we are looking forward to reviewing BDU carriage issues with the CRTC at that time.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17020             Thank you for the opportunity to present our views.  I would welcome your questions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17021             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. LaRose.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17022             We will now proceed with Mr. Jamie Hill of the Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17023             I would ask you to introduce your colleague, and you will have ten minutes for your presentation, Mr. Hill.

INTERVENTION

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17024             MR. HILL:  Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Panel, Commission Staff and ladies and gentlemen.  My name is Jamie Hill, and I am the Chief Executive Officer of Aboriginal Voices Radio.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17025             With me is J. Robert Wood, an advisor with over 30 years of experience in the broadcasting industry.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17026             I am now ready to begin the presentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17027             I would like to thank the Commission for the opportunity to provide comments in this important Diversity of Voices proceeding.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17028             AVR is a non‑profit organization, founded to facilitate the development of a national Aboriginal radio service that broadcasts in large urban centres in Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17029             Thanks to the CRTC, AVR has been granted licences to operate stations in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Regina, Saskatoon, Kitchener, Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal.  It has been extremely expensive, but all of these stations are now on the air, with the exception of recently approved licences to serve Regina and Saskatoon.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17030             We are working right now to add a number of improvements to the service.  These service improvements will be heard on the air in each city very soon.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17031             Our overarching mission is to help improve the lives of Aboriginal people.  We intend to do this by filling the need for a high‑quality Aboriginal programming service in urban centres, where the majority of Canada's Aboriginal people now live.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17032             Despite the critical role that radio can play to help nurture and reflect Aboriginal values, aspirations and culture, Aboriginal people in Canada's largest cities had little or no access to Canada's radio broadcasting system before AVR came along.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17033             The word "unique" truly applies to AVR.  There is no service like ours in the Canadian broadcasting system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17034             Our diversity within the radio sector is characterized by the fact that AVR is the only service in southern Canada, and perhaps all of Canada that features Aboriginal artists in virtually all of its music programming on a dedicated basis, and AVR's programming is specifically targeted to serve the needs and interests of Aboriginal people all across Canada, whether of Indian, Inuit or Métis background.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17035             Musically, we are proud of what is now blossoming at AVR to foster the development of Canadian content, and especially Aboriginal content.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17036             We provide a national window of opportunity for hundreds of Aboriginal Canadian artists who have historically been denied access to the airwaves of the CBC, private sector commercial stations, ethnic stations, most campus and community stations, and the overwhelming majority of Aboriginal stations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17037             In public affairs programming, AVR's capability is to offer a unique perspective on current affairs that addresses the long‑neglected needs of a community whose views and tastes have been under‑represented and misrepresented in the broadcasting system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17038             Through these and other factors, AVR offers a broad, rich and varied programming mixture that enhances diversity in the Canadian broadcasting system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17039             I would like to comment on AVR's financial viability.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17040             Unfortunately, funding from broadcaster benefits packages, averaging less than $1 million per year, is not enough to operate radio stations in nine cities across Canada at a level of service and quality that other Canadians enjoy in non‑Aboriginal radio broadcasting.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17041             Moreover, given that the spectrum is almost exhausted, benefits packages are not a sufficiently reliable source of funding to secure the long‑term viability of a national radio service.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17042             In order to continue to contribute to the two primary goals of the Broadcasting Act, namely, Canadian content and access to the system for all Canadians, AVR must find a way to secure adequate, stable, long‑term funding.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17043             In its Call for Comments with respect to this review, the Commission asks whether Commission policies need to be adapted in order to ensure that the voices of Aboriginal and ethnic Canadians, as well as those with disabilities, have appropriate access to the system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17044             In AVR's view, the Commission already has the regulatory tools at its disposal to provide the funding needed to facilitate such access.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17045             Therefore, in order to ensure that urban Aboriginal people have appropriate access to the system, the Commission must be prepared to utilize these tools to ensure that AVR has appropriate resources to do its work.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17046             This would be consistent with the Commission's position enunciated in its Native Broadcasting Policy, Public Notice CRTC 1990‑89, in which it said:

                      "In the Commission's view, it is essential that Aboriginal broadcasters receive sufficient funds to enable them to fulfil their responsibilities."

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17047             Increased consolidation defies the idea of having diversity in a system.  I believe that the way to ensure there is diversity in the system is to approve mechanisms for long‑term financial viability for organizations such as AVR, keeping in mind that there are mechanisms in place for the long‑term financial viability of commercial broadcasters.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17048             The Aboriginal community is Canada's poorest and most vulnerable community, for historical reasons which are not of its doing.  Access to the broadcasting system through a national Aboriginal radio service is critical to strengthening the Aboriginal community in its ongoing efforts to overcome the challenges it now faces as a result of the historical legacy.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17049             Our focus throughout the entire history of AVR has been on mere survival, not the high‑quality programming that Aboriginal people ought to have access to like other Canadians do.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17050             Without sufficient funding, AVR will continue to be at risk, operating an underfunded service at the margins of the Canadian broadcasting system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17051             Such a prospect would mean more of the same, as far as the historical legacy of Aboriginal people is concerned.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17052             We do look forward to working with the Commission to secure the long‑term viability of AVR and, by extension, provide appropriate access to the system that free over‑the‑air radio can provide Canada's poorest community.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17053             That concludes our presentation, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Commission.  Thank you for listening.  I would be pleased to answer any questions you have with respect to this presentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17054             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17055             I will deal first with APTN, and then with AVR, and then my colleagues will pitch in.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17056             Mr. LaRose, thank you, first of all, for the very complimentary comments you made about the CRTC.  We are not used to hearing such laudation.  It is nice to see that some of the things we do actually work, and I appreciate it.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17057             You mentioned that you have 9.1(h) status, and that that is part of the key to your success.  We have had other people appearing before us, even at this hearing, who were saying, that being the case, it means that you have an existence, but that's about all.  You can still be, more or less, ill treated by the BDUs.  You can be moved in the tiering and the channel placement, et cetera.  Negotiations may be very arduous, and what you get on the one hand, you lose on the other.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17058             Do you have any experience along those lines?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17059             I don't want you to mention specific BDUs.  I don't want to get you into trouble, I would just be interested to know to what extent is the 9.1(h) status the security that you need, and to what extent it still does not give you the strength to negotiate on a safe basis and get predictability with your BDUs.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17060             MR. LAROSE:  I would suggest that, without 9.1(h), we would have absolutely nothing going for us.  9.1(h), at least, ensures that we are on the airwaves.  It, at least, ensures that we have a position on the dial.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17061             It certainly hasn't been the be‑all and end‑all when it comes to channel placement, for one thing.  When you consider that, as a network, we are supposed to be on basic carriage, as of this morning, I just found out that we are now 100.  We have just been moved up to 100 in a major market by a major BDU.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17062             I have an older set that doesn't go to 100, so if I don't buy additional, or change TVs, or what have you, I no longer ‑‑ I don't consider that I am on basic any more.  So I think that has been an issue.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17063             9.1(h) has been very helpful in ensuring that we get funding, that we receive the subscriber fee, and that we are somewhere on the channel, but it hasn't been the be‑all and end‑all.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17064             As I said in my presentation, I think that is where, in areas of consolidation, the Commission might be able to look at creating new policy areas that would deal with such issues, that would address such concerns, to make sure that the objectives you set forth, as you did with 9.1(h), are not in one way or another undermined by weaknesses in other areas.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17065             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What about tiering and packaging?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17066             MR. LAROSE:  Again, in the area of tiering and packaging, our experience has been that we often are sort of marginalized or set aside.  We are not very well packaged.  We certainly are quite invisible sometimes on some of the channels that promote what is appearing on‑air.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17067             Forgive me, but the term in English escapes me right now.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17068             I think what it shows is that quite often there is still a resistance by some of the BDUs to actually promote us fairly, as they do with other services.  That is still a concern that we have.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17069             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Where would you see yourself logically being placed, from your point of view, in a package?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17070             MR. LAROSE:  In all honesty, I think that, as Canada's fourth national broadcaster, we should be right there with CTV, Global and CBC.  We should be right before CHUM.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17071             I think we should be in the top 20, top 25 numbers.  We should have that position, which many others, in fact ‑‑ interestingly enough, some of the smaller BDUs, who have placed APTN anywhere from Channel 2 to Channel 20, have actually found that it is in their interest to have us there, because we do have an audience, and it serves them well to market us and place us in a good position.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17072             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You mentioned in your presentation the importance that independent producers place, and the difficulty that you have ‑‑ the same as we heard from the CFTPA, et cetera.  They are pushing very strongly, and we are supporting them to establish a Terms of Trade Agreement with the broadcasters, so that most of these negotiations ‑‑ there is a whole set of terms that are automatic, and you basically deal with a few outstanding items.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17073             I assume that you are in support of that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17074             Do you know what the CFTPA has been doing?  Have you been working with them?  Are you part of that working group, so that whatever gets negotiated applies to Aboriginal producers the same way as it does to others?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17075             MR. LAROSE:  We are involved.  I haven't been the individual directly involved in that.  That has been left with the director of the Programming Department, but they have been in touch with the CFTPA.  We are involved in that group quite closely.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17076             Certainly, those concerns are concerns that we have, as well.  Quite often our producers find themselves at a disadvantage when they are negotiating with major broadcasters.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17077             What helps many of them is that, quite often, if it is shared or if there is another window with APTN, they turn to us to help negotiate some of those terms, and I think that we have established a certain credibility with other broadcasters.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17078             But, certainly, they would benefit from overall standards that would help them protect their interests, to the extent that all producers need to have their interests protected.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17079             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, you say you're not against consolidation, you see the need for strong players.  On the other hand, you sort of mention that we have to worry of the process here and we should make sure that the various parts of the media are included when we talk about editorial voices and it's not just media, but also newspapers.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17080             So, do I read into this that you basically support the CBC's first suggestion that for markets, you have a two out of three roles that you can own TV and radio, but you can't own TV, radio and newspaper, or any or two of those three?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17081             MR. LAROSE:  Well, to the extent that they would be the only three in that market obviously that's ‑‑ to me that would be ‑‑ that's a given. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17082             If there is ‑‑ I am not, I haven't got a specific thought on when it comes to print media as incorporated into them, but I certainly do believe that a certain level of media consolidation has promoted a sort of a strength in the industry that can then be leveraged by both the Commission and smaller players to provide access to some of the diversity of voices that we are discussing here.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17083             As an example, a stronger CTV in my mind has certainly been beneficial in helping us develop news bureaux across the country than providing us, funding for drama series. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17084             So, I think that in the area where a player becomes stronger financially and stronger, a stronger entity where there is public policy to ensure that the benefits apply or are spread around to others, I think that's where consolidation to me has been positive. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17085             A weak player would have great difficulty in being able to support whether it's an aboriginal voice or another diverse voice because they would have difficulty in maintaining their own.  So, that's where I see that certain consolidation and strengthening of some of the players has benefited us.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17086             THE CHAIRPERSON:  When I visited you and you pointed out to me your very successful partnership with CTV, to take one example. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17087             But, surely that also strengths to CTV, I mean, and the argument you've just made could one say just the opposite, could one say, for instance, the new Rogers CITI, if we approve that a transaction will ‑‑ and put aside from a partnership as you would make themselves in effect be able to reach a wider audience and have a better coverage and, therefore, we can ‑‑ actually several owners rather than as in a few owners is to your advantage rather than to your disadvantage?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17088             MR. LAROSE:  That's quite correct.  But several strong owners is to our advantage.  If there were several or one strong owner and several weak ones, I think the strong one would be to our benefit, the weak ones may not be as much.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17089             I mean, I think in this case, you're quite right that we can turn the argument around and that's certainly where I think the policy area needs to come in to play to ensure that if we do have more than one or two or three players, but they are strong players, that they need to be mandated within the framework of the regulations to ensure that there is place for the diversity of voices and that those voices are heard.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17090             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your first recommendation says that CRTC and I take a ‑‑ sorry, I'm looking at the wrong ones.  On benefits; we have a policy, you are very complementary you say it has done a lot for you, et cetera.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17091             Is it good enough for us to maintain our existing benefits policy or does it need to be fine tuned in this regard, to your concerns?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17092             MR. LAROSE:  I think fine tuning would greatly enhance it.  The benefits policy per see has been very good to APTN.  There could be some improvements in how the benefits are sometimes directed. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17093             In some cases they are directed to the aboriginal production community where basically it's an indirect way for the broadcaster or the BDU to resend the money back to itself by providing the money to an independent producer for programming for their own entity and sometimes that programming isn't given the opportunity to be aired at a time where it actually has an impact.  So, from our end, I think a lot of the benefit could be fine tuned. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17094             As an example where it's directed to APTN for an aboriginal production, that would then be shown jointly on both that broadcaster that provides the benefit as well as APTN and that has a two‑fold impact.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17095             Within our audience and within our community a lot of people do focus a lot on APTN.  So, to see something both appearing on the network as well as mainstream will give them a sense that, in fact, their story is being heard not only by themselves, but by others and we want to make sure that the benefits do provide for that opportunity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17096             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Doesn't that come a bit close to us directing, and take CTV as an example, in effect the scheduling of CTV and what they put on the airwaves?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17097             MR. LAROSE:  I don't think it would be ‑‑ it would be to that level because if the benefit, as an example, the current one we negotiated with CTV, provides for us to jointly develop a drama series that will air jointly on both networks, I think that if that was in any way shape or form sort of a mandated element, I don't think it would be necessarily you directing the scheduling, but it would be you as a regulator ensuring that diversity of voice is not only directed to the smaller entities, but it also becomes part of the mainstream, the bigger entities. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17098             I think it's important for Canadians who, you know, by the millions tune in a CTV or a CanWest Global tonight have the opportunity to maybe hear other voices as well within that mix, because I think the entire goal promoting diversity is to give them access to mainstream, access to the bigger players, not only marginalizing them on smaller networks.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17099             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Thank you.  Now, in terms of AVR, you've stated in your presentation your mandate is to broadcast in large urban centres in Canada and that's what you do and you broadcast obviously for aboriginal communities in those large urban areas.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17100             I've just this summer went to Saskatchewan and visited the radio station up in Lorange, Missinipi, who have a very strong station and several repeaters and they've told me anywhere in Saskatchewan you can hear Missinipi and, actually, that is the best way to serve the aboriginal community because even the urban ones will come, most of them, from a reserve from rural communities, that's where they're born, that's what their interests are. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17101             If you're alienated sometimes, lost in the urban centre and so, therefore, producing shows from up Lorange and giving everything from their perspective itself is a very strong and necessary bond and they have a huge audience and that's really what the aboriginal community requires.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17102             Now, you have a different model.  You're urban and this is not so and I wonder whether you can explain to me, now are these complementary, are they different or who is right, who is wrong?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17103             MR. HILL:  Mr. Chairman, I think they are probably complementary.  The majority of aboriginal people in Canada do live and reside in urban centres.  So, I think even in my own family, what you are referring to happens quite a bit across all aboriginal communities where people live in urban centres like to maintain ties with their family in aboriginal communities that are not in the urban centres.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17104             But I think that the fact that the majority of them do reside in the cities and it is beneficial for people travelling to, for instance, an Indian Reserve, to be able to hear aboriginal programming there.  But it's a small percentage of their time spent there compared to where they live.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17105             So, I think it is important that aboriginal programming can be heard where they live. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17106             I guess that's the primary answer to that type of question.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17107             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, you do not see yourself, to take this case of Saskatchewan, you haven't started a radio station in Regina in competition of this Missinipi, you are in effect complementary you're telling me?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17108             MR. HILL:  Yes.  I don't think we are ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17109             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am just taking it because I know them and I don't mean to pick on them.  I take that station ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17110             MR. HILL:  Yes.  I don't view aboriginal voices radio is in competition with any of those broadcasters because they are not broadcasting in the cities where we broadcast and, you know, so ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17111             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But they have repeater stations all over I'm told and I am told they can receive the signal throughout Saskatchewan.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17112             MR. HILL:  Well, in Saskatoon, I think there is a repeater and I think you've licensed one in Regina recently and I think the Saskatoon one was there. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17113             I know there is a repeater station I think in Winnipeg, but I don't think that our service, we are playing predominantly all aboriginal music.  I am not sure that's that exactly what they are doing, so I don't think we are in competition with them in that respect.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17114             If we were playing the same format and pursuing the same type of advertising revenues in those cities, there might some case made for competition, but since we are not doing those two things, I don't think we are competing with them.  I do think that we are complementary.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17115             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You state that your programming is targeted specifically to the needs and interest of aboriginal peoples all across Canada, whether Indian, Inuit or Metis background?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17116             MR. HILL:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17117             THE CHAIRPERSON:  How do you think it balances?  I mean, the interest of Inuits and Indians may not be the same.  They may actually be quite different, they may be contrary to each other and how do you make sure ‑‑ how do you select your programming so you have to make sure that you have ‑‑ first of all, you reach ‑‑ all the rating doesn't balance and that you represent all these points of views?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17118             MR. HILL:  Well, for instance, in the area of music, we select, we try to select as diverse a mix of artists as possible.  There are Inuit artists that we do play on the radio, that as well as selecting in diversity of musical genres. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17119             So, there is a great diversity as far as what we do compared to commercial broadcaster where the programming genres or musical genres for instance might be quite narrow.  We are very diverse, very eclectic and we do make an effort to incorporate all voices, all aboriginal voices into a mix. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17120             For instance, one of the things we have done for a long term is a Metis show.  We have an actual Metis show devoted to Metis artists.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17121             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And is the music mostly in English or is it also in the aboriginal languages and if we take Indian music, for instance?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17122             MR. HILL:  We have a percentage that's in aboriginal languages.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17123             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  And in terms of funding, which seems to be your main preoccupation and I understand your desire for more and regular funding, but I don't see anything concretely that you suggest. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17124             I mean, do you have anything specific in mind?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17125             MR. HILL:  Yes.  We're actually putting something together, Chairman, and we're formulating those plans now as to what we feel would be an appropriate level to deliver high quality and adequate programming to these communities.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17126             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  Okay.  Thank you.  André, I believe you have some questions?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17127             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Oui.  Monsieur Larose, est‑ce que je peux vous poser ma question en français?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17128             M. LAROSE:  Oui, absolument.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17129             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  D'accord. 

‑‑‑ Pause

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17130             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Moi, je voudrais revenir à la question du statut 91H et de l'accès dont vous avez parlé tout à l'heure.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17131             Juste pour qu'on se comprenne bien, le statut 91H vous garantit l'accès sur le service de base de l'entreprise de distribution, que ce soit le satellite ou le câble.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17132             M. LAROSE:  Hum‑hum!  C'est ça.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17133             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Mais ça ne vous garantit pas une place de choix sur le cadran.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17134             M. LAROSE:  Exactement.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17135             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  C'est ça.  Alors, l'effet... est‑ce que je me trompe si je vous dis que l'effet de ça, c'est que sur les postes de télévision ou, en tout cas, du moins en distribution analogique, en distribution numérique avec les set‑up boxes, ça devient beaucoup moins important, mais en distribution analogique, si vous avez un téléviseur, un poste de télévision qui est un peu... un peu ancien, si on vous met à 117, il n'y a personne qui va vous prendre.  C'est ça?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17136             M. LAROSE:  Exactement.  C'est le défi auquel on fait face parce que même si ce n'était pas une place de choix, disons, même si on ne donnait pas le poste 15 ou 14 ou 12, si j'étais quelque part où le téléspectateur dans son *clicotage+ habituel pouvait me voir, ce serait déjà encourageant. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17137             Mais quand je suis à 100 à Winnipeg, ce que ça veut dire, c'est que quelqu'un qui fait la série analogique frappe la série digitale puis, je veux dire, s'il est sur le service de base, il frappe de la neige après 30 quelque, il ne nous trouvera jamais puis c'est ce qui arrive.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17138             Et ce qu'il y a de surprenant puis ce qu'il y a de décourageant des fois, c'est autant je me promène à travers le pays puis, je veux dire, je me promène toujours, je m'arrange pour avoir un manteau, quelque chose qui est avec notre logo pour essayer de faire de la publicité en même temps, autant j'ai des Canadiens qui me disent:  Ah! APTN, oui, le poste indien ou quelque autre appellation qu'ils peuvent me donner, autant d'autres vont me dire : c'est quoi ça!  Et lorsqu'on leur dit, bien, ils n'en sont absolument pas au courant.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17139             Alors, ce que ça me dit, c'est que quand on est placé dans la stratosphère du cadran télévisuel, nos chances d'être retrouvés par les individus, les téléspectateurs, sont de beaucoup minimisées puis lorsqu'on a aussi certains problèmes avec certains d'entre eux qui ne nous affichent pas régulièrement sur le canal qui affiche la programmation, à ce moment‑là on a un double problème.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17140             C'est que non seulement le monde ne nous trouve pas, mais ils n'ont rien pour leur indiquer où on est.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17141             Alors, c'est à ce moment‑là qu'on a des problèmes et c'est pour ça que je dis le 91H autant nous a permis de prendre un service et le développer au point où on peut aujourd'hui chercher à s'afficher comme le quatrième réseau national...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17142             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Je peux vous dire que sur Vidéotron vous êtes quand même assez... assez bien placé.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17143             M. LAROSE:  Exactement.  Ce n'est pas une critique pour tout le monde parce qu'il y en a qui nous placent très bien.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17144             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Non, non, non, mais parce que, moi, j'ai Vidéotron chez moi et c'est... vous êtes assez bien placé.  Mais il reste que si vous avez un téléviseur un peu ancien et qui s'arrête à 99, si on vous met à 100, vous n'êtes pas visible?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17145             M. LAROSE:  Exactement.  Puis, à ce moment‑là, je crois que ça va un peu contre la décision de la Commission qui était de s'assurer qu'on était un service de base.  Si on n'est pas sur le téléviseur mon argument est : on n'est plus de base.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17146             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Je vous remercie.  C'était ma question.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17147             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ron, I believe you have some questions?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17148             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good morning.  Mr. Larose, has APTN considered using subtitles when broadcasting programming in aboriginal languages to appeal to a wider audience?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17149             MR. LAROSE:  Yes.  In fact, I think pretty well all of our language programming has subtitles, but some of it is close captioned and the reason for that is mainly because there is, as you know, quite a concern in our community about language loss.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17150             Some of our producers and especially some language groups are very concerned about the rapid loss of language and there is concern that by putting open captioning on it, it would also undermine the intent of trying to get people to reconnect to the language or to get used to hearing it and understanding it without reading it in English to sort of may take the easy way out, if I wished ‑‑ if I can say it that way.  So, that's why we have close captioned it.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17151             But it's an issue within both the network and within our viewers because many of them who have lost the language don't necessarily have close captioning capabilities on their sets and some of them can't actually turn it on to ‑‑ turn on the subtitling.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17152             So, we are working with producers and one of the things we are looking at down the road is... will be to get programming in more than one version, audio versions, so that we cannot only hear in aboriginal languages but also at another time repeat it, but in English or in French so that we have the opportunity to present the same program, but with different audio versions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17153             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Thank you.  That's my question, Mr. Chair.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17154             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Michel?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17155             CONSEILLÈRE MORIN:  Oui.  La question que j'aimerais poser, elle est plutôt... cette question‑là est plutôt d'ordre philosophique.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17156             J'aimerais savoir dans quel esprit vous travaillez et qu'est‑ce qui serait le mieux, qu'est‑ce qui est le mieux pour la diversité au Canada?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17157             Est‑ce que, par exemple, une approche qui serait de consolider les voix autochtones, les favoriser, les cultiver, les enraciner?  Autrement dit, une approche très, disons, autochtone, très ethnique ou une autre approche qui consisterait à exprimer ces voix dans des audiences plus larges, sans détruire l'autre partie, mais simplement en terme d'orientation?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17158             Et dans ce sens‑là, est‑ce que vous faites des publicités si c'est une option, pour élargir vos audiences?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17159             Alors, je ne sais pas, c'est une question un peu philosophique que je vous pose, mais où est le focus et quel serait fondamentalement la meilleure façon d'augmenter la diversité au pays? 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17160             Est‑ce que c'est en se concentrant dans une première approche ou d'essayer, dans une deuxième, d'exprimer les valeurs des communautés que vous desservez?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17161             M. LAROSE:  La question va à l'essence d'un débat présentement dans la communauté et la vaste... je devrais dire dans les communautés parce qu'il faut s'entendre que les Premières Nations sont aussi différentes des Inuits que des Métis qu'à l'intérieur des Premières Nations il y a énormément de différence aussi parce que, après tout, il y a 52 groupes linguistiques, et caetera.  Ce n'est pas un groupe homogène.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17162             Ce que APTN cherche à faire, c'est un peu un mélange des deux perspectives dont vous mentionnez.  Autant de débats au Québec en ce qui a trait au lien entre la langue, la culture, l'histoire et tout ça, nous a amenés à reconnaître certains éléments qui sont vraiment spécifiques à l'historique québécoise, pour ce qui est des Premières Nations et des peuples autochtones, le débat est le même.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17163             Autant la question linguistique, culturelle et autres doit être maintenue par une force, une concentration et une tentative de préservation de tous ces éléments‑là, sinon on passe peut‑être de l'histoire au folklore, c'est le même et ça a été et ce sera encore probablement le même débat qu'on a eu au Québec.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17164             Alors, ce que nous cherchons à faire, c'est de préserver à travers une certaine programmation justement ces éléments‑là qui sont vraiment spécifiques à chacune des cultures, mais en même temps trouver un moyen de les partager avec le reste des Canadiens et de plus en plus avec le reste du monde.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17165             On n'a pas trouvé la formule magique encore parce que aussi bien au niveau de notre conseil d'administration qu'au niveau de nos producteurs, au niveau de même à l'interne chez nous, les employés, il y a toujours ce débat‑là, à savoir : est‑ce qu'on va trop loin pour chercher à faire connaître nos histoires aux Canadiens en laissant aller nos langues un peu puis en trouvant des moyens pour, disons, ouvrir notre programmation, de sorte qu'on perd le focus vers nos propres gens ou est‑ce qu'on devrait... d'autres disent, c'est la façon de le faire, on devrait en avoir plus.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17166             Alors, justement parce que c'est une question au niveau philosophique, il n'y a pas de réponse spécifique.  Ce qu'on cherche à atteindre, c'est un équilibre entre les deux tendances.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17167             CONSEILLÈRE MORIN:  Vous avez dit : *le reste du monde+.  Est‑ce que vous pensez qu'il y aurait une possibilité à ce niveau‑là pour les nations autochtones, les Premières Nations?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17168             M. LAROSE:  Il y en a déjà une.  On a lancé cette semaine un site internet qui s'appelle *Le tambour digital, a digital drum+, qui, justement, a certains éléments de notre programmation, certains éléments de la langue, de la culture et tout ça.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17169             Et en partie le site a été lancé parce qu'on avait des demandes à la fois de l'Allemagne, de l'Australie et de la Nouvelle‑Zélande, de Taïwan, énormément d'endroits à travers le monde où il y a des groupes autochtones qui font face aux mêmes défis auxquels on fait face ici, la demande était vraiment et de plus en plus croissante pour que APTN partage ses histoires à l'échelle du monde.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17170             Au niveau des tribus américaines parce qu'ils se réfèrent comme tribus aux États, on a encore cette semaine deux requêtes pour que notre programmation soit envoyée aux États et diffusée dans certaine des réserves américaines.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17171             Alors, je crois qu'il y a non seulement un marché, mais un marché à développer puis encore là, c'est un défi.  Avec les ressources qu'on a présentement, ça va être de trouver une façon et même est‑ce que le temps est propice pour se lancer dans ce domaine‑là.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17172             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Michel, do you have any questions?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17173             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes.  Mr. Hill, I was wondering if you had any comments to make on the question that Commissioner Morin asked because it also applies to AVR, the concept.  The philosophical question that Mr. Morin asked I think surely AVR has a view about that. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17174             Could we hear your view?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17175             MR. HILL:  Yes.  Thank you, vice‑chairman.  I think that we probably feel that it's better to have both.  Certainly the wider audience of the commercial broadcasters if you're going to air aboriginal programming in that way, you're reaching a lot of people presumably.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17176             On the other hand, I think it's important that aboriginal media organizations have the opportunity to produce and select what they think is appropriate within the ‑‑ I guess the cultures of aboriginal peoples.  So, there is a selection issue as well in a commercial broadcasting where you know there are different, I guess motivations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17177             For instance, they have to survive, for instance, in a manner different than someone such as a non‑profit like AVR, just their survival is that they have to take a different approach.  So, the selection of programming would be different than someone like aboriginal voices radio.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17178             We are non‑profit more I guess based upon cultural programming as opposed to having to deal with the pressures of, you know, gaining an audience with your programming.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17179             The other thing is it's probably easier to locate aboriginal voices radio as far as if you're looking for aboriginal programming, you know, you could argue that as long as the Canadian public is aware that it's there, that they can go there any time and hear aboriginal artists.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17180             So, that's the argument for having the aboriginal media dissemination of programming as far as commercial broadcasters.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17181             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Mr. Larose, I am picking up on madam Noël's questions, line of questions, and this variation on basic and sometime on cable basic is spread over ‑‑ is basic like the first 20 some channels, then it goes higher than 70 or sometime higher than 100.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17182             Does being carried ‑‑ and you gave the example of Winnipeg where you're based, were being carried above the 100, does it have any impact on your ability to sell advertising?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17183             MR. LAROSE:  Well, it definitely does.  If only because people don't even know we exist often and the same applies to advertisers.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17184             The other key factor is that with one BDU in particular, the change is almost monthly lately.  Since last Fall, we've been bounced all over, almost on a monthly basis.  People who finally track us back after a month lose us again.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17185             I think from that perspective probably the most frustrating part is that while we will try to ‑‑ we set an advertising campaign to say you'll now find us on 100.  Well, by the time the campaign goes out, we're 103.  So they turn to 100 and they will find CPAC or whoever else ends up having been bounced up there.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17186             So, I think where I think that ‑‑ what I alluded to earlier where I think that some are taking, for lack of a better term, liberties with the spirit and intent of the 91H decision is to, yes, we're on basic, but basic has many definitions and, in this case, basic is stratosphere. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17187             You know, maybe if you're a space shuttle, it's a great location to be, you're away up there, but I mean that wasn't our intent.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17188             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I can speak from personal experience because after I visited you, I went home, I'm a satellite subscriber and I found you in the 500, which certainly didn't correspond to my notion of basics, you know.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17189             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So, that was my question, Mr. Chair.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17190             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  I appreciated your presentation.  I think those are our questions for you.  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17191             Madam Boulet, we will take how long a break?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17192             THE SECRETARY:  We'll take 15‑minute break, we'll be back at 1030.  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17193             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Recessed at 1014 / Suspension à 1014

‑‑‑ Resumed at 1031 / Reprise à 1031

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17194             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, Madam Boulet, who is next?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17195             THE SECRETARY:  Merci, Monsieur le Président.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17196             We will now proceed with the following two interveners, the National Campus and Community Radio Association and Mr. John Harris Stevenson.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17197             We will start with the National Campus' presentation.  Ms Melissa Kaestner will present her colleague, after which you will have 10 minutes for your presentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17198             Ms Kaestner.

INTERVENTION

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17199             MS KAESTNER:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17200             Good morning, everybody.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17201             My name is Melissa Kaestner and I'm the National Coordinator of the National Campus and Community Radio Association.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17202             I've worked in radio for 14 years, getting my start in commercial radio in the U.S. in 1993.  I found my passion for campus and community radio in 1997 at CHSR‑FM in Fredericton.  From there I went to Toronto and did a short stint as music director at CHRY before moving on to Montreal and then Ottawa to work with the NCRA for more than five years ‑‑ or more than five years ago.  Currently I am a volunteer at CHUO‑FM in Ottawa.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17203             MR. LIGHT:  My name is Evan Light.  I began volunteering at a small college station in the woods of New Jersey in 1993 and have been active at CKOT radio in Montreal since 1995.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17204             I'm a doctoral candidate in communications at Université de Montréal ‑‑ du Québec au Montréal where I specialize in independent media and the democratic management of the radio spectrum.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17205             I also volunteer with AMARC the World Association of Community Broadcasters as a policy specialist and member of AMARC's North American steering committee.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17206             Today I'm here as a board member of the National Campus and Community Radio Association representing the region of Quebec.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17207             MS PENHALE:  My name is Joanne Penhale and I started at CJSF in Burnaby, B.C. five years ago as a volunteer programmer.  I've since been involved as a board member, staff and then, again, as a volunteer at two other community‑oriented campus radio stations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17208             I've also completed a post‑grad journalism program and have worked in the private sector as a journalist.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17209             Both the non‑profit and private sectors of media have their strengths, but I continue to volunteer in the campus and community radio sector because I respect its goals.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17210             Today I'm representing the NCRA as a board member.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17211             A month ago Evan and I drove across much of Canada in my '89 Corolla which only has a radio.  We left from Victoria, went to Vancouver, up into northern B.C., across Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, through northern Ontario and then down through northern Quebec into Montreal.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17212             Each region was vastly different from the next.  Each rural community and city we drove through has its own distinct history, cultural identity, industries, landscape and unique mix of people, all with stories to tell.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17213             On long stretches of the TransCanada Highway we'd often hit the scan button on the radio and sometimes it was an hour before we'd pick up a frequency.  Many times what came through was CBC Radio One, programming almost entirely produced in urban centres.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17214             When we got lucky we found community radio.  Listening to these local broadcasts made me feel connected to the towns we were driving through.  We heard voices of local regular people from places we'd never been to, talking about something happening that night in the community or playing music they chose and love and music that I'd never heard before.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17215             From region to region, however, the most typical radio we found sounded just like the radio I might find in Vancouver or Victoria or Toronto and, while it was better than nothing, it didn't reflect a unique regional diversity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17216             MS KAESTNER:  The National Campus and Community Radio Association is a national association of volunteer‑based, non‑profit, community‑oriented radio broadcasters.  The NCRA represents 47 members including campus, community, instructional and developmental stations in urban and rural locations across Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17217             The programming of our stations is produced by an estimated 4,500 volunteers.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17218             While each of our member stations has their own unique characteristics generally reflective of the unique communities they serve, there are many qualities that campus and community radio stations have in common.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17219             We have open participatory access assuring diversity of membership across ranges of age, income, education, race, ethnicity, language, gender, sexual orientation and ability.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17220             Our spoken word content is dictated by the needs and desires of the community each station serves and the variety of music played by all of our stations is vast, including local musicians who sometimes go on to commercial success.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17221             Our stations are independent and non‑profit.  They are not restrained by a need to turn profits for shareholders, satisfy advertisers and they will never be at risk of being purchased or consolidated with other stations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17222             Each station fills its programming day with shows produced and hosted by volunteers from vastly different backgrounds, all drawn from the community who make their own editorial decisions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17223             On average this amounts to more than 100 different independent editorial voices on each station per week.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17224             MS PENHALE:  The local impact of campus and community radio stations is huge.  Because they are accessible and locally oriented, the impact of these stations resonates with local communities.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17225             Stations interact with these communities in three primary ways.  First, by engaging local audiences with broadcasts on local topics that are relevant to their lives and exposing audiences to ideas, information and music that is otherwise not readily available.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17226             Second, the physical station itself is a convergent point for people and groups with various backgrounds and perspectives, making stations sites for dialogue, network building and cross‑cultural exchanges.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17227             Finally, every day local people who often have no other interaction with media are sought out by programmers to share their ideas and stories on air, giving those people a sense of validation and belonging in the community they live in.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17228             For further evidence of this impact, we've included in our submission several testimonies from staff and volunteers about the nature and impact of campus community radio stations in Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17229             MR. LIGHT:  There's an increasing demand on the campus community radio sector as commercial media becomes more centralized, homogenized and less locally oriented.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17230             Our stations have an enormous responsibility which they take very seriously to provide audiences programming that isn't available on other frequencies in the region.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17231             As more and more local stories are left uncovered by commercial media and the CBC, there's a greater demand on us to ensure those voices are heard.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17232             While we have this responsibility, our sector has an overwhelming need for financial stability.  The NCRA has partnered with ARC du Canada and ARC du Québec to develop an independent funding body for Canadian community radio.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17233             Within two weeks of this hearing, an application will be filed for incorporation of the Community Radio Fund of Canada.  We have submitted our current proposal, Appendix No. 2, for this Fund as part of our presentation today.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17234             Through the Fund, community radio stations and associations hope to attain fiscal security so they can better uphold their role in the Canadian broadcasting sector.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17235             Some examples of initiatives that could be funded are:

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17236             Resource building.  Some campus and community radio stations have great difficulty acquiring simple equipment like portable audio recorders, computers and sound boards.  A basic standard of technological resources would optimize capacity for volunteers across Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17237             Ground wire news.  Sustainable funding would allow the NCRA to launch a national newscast that covers topics untouched by commercial media and which covers a diversity of perspectives on national issues.  The ground wire news project already has a detailed plan and budget but requires staff with an estimated cost of $10,000 to launch a pilot series.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17238             Thirdly, rural station development.  Many small communities across Canada have no commercial media or CBC presence.  With adequate resources, the NCRA can provide support to any group of people from these communities who want to have a local independent non‑profit media presence.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17239             Over the long term, it is our desire to work with the CRTC and Canadian Heritage to develop mechanisms through which our sector can be adequately supported and maintained.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17240             Commercial stations for decades have used the public air waves for private profit.  If a small percentage of these profits is directed towards the non‑profit radio sector, we will be better enabled to give the public access to their own air waves.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17241             Among possible solutions, we recommend that the Commission re‑examine the distribution of CCD benefits.  As we've stated in our written submission today and in previous audiences with the CRTC, we believe the commercial broadcasting benefits policy in its current form does not adequately support the development of a richly diverse and innovative Canadian cultural sector.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17242             We call upon the Commission to re‑examine the benefits policy in full, assuring that it contributes to the development of Canadian content as a cultural rather than commercial product.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17243             The Community Radio Fund of Canada can play such a role as a guaranteed recipient of the benefits policy.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17244             We also recommend a more transparent and communicative benefits allocation process.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17245             The Fund has sought and continues to seek voluntary partnerships with commercial media for funding, but has not had success to date.  While we encourage these voluntary contributions from the commercial sector, sustainable funding for our sector cannot be assured without mandated contributions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17246             MS PENHALE:  Ultimately the NCRA wants every market, small and large, to have a sustainable community radio presence, however, licence allocations for such stations are not currently guaranteed.  For instance, Kelowna, B.C. is without a single community or campus community broadcaster.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17247             While there is one in development, 11 commercial broadcasters have recently applied for licences in this market.  If all these applications are approved, spectrum scarcity could leave Kelowna and the surrounding area without an available frequency allocation for a community‑based broadcaster, regardless of the obvious need and interest.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17248             Additionally, unprotected developmental stations such as CJAI on Amherst Island in Ontario are increasingly in danger of losing their frequencies to commercial applicants without notice or recourse and are having difficulty locating another available frequency or lack the resources to move to high power.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17249             Given this reality, the NCRA recommends the CRTC reserve a protected licence in each market for at least one community radio station, even where none currently exists, and work in collaboration with Industry Canada to ensure that a frequency remains available in each market to service these licences.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17250             MR. LIGHT:  Finally, in choosing or defining a digital broadcast standard, the NCRA recommends that the CRTC and Industry Canada consult equally with all three broadcasting sectors, assuring that digital transition and related policies are developed in the interest of furthering diversity of the broadcasting system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17251             We value the opportunity to present to you today and invite all the Commissioners, Staff and anyone in this room to visit any of the NCRA campus or community stations across the country or just to tune into one.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17252             We welcome your questions now.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17253             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17254             We will now proceed with Mr. John Harris Stevenson's presentation.  Please go ahead.

INTERVENTION

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17255             MR. STEVENSON:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17256             Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17257             My name is John Harris Stevenson, I am the President of CHUO‑FM here in Ottawa which is Canada's only fully bilingual community radio station.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17258             I sit on the advisory board of the National Campus and Community Radio Association and, in my spare time, I'm a doctoral student at the University of Toronto researching new media regulation and the public interest.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17259             Over the past few days listening to these proceedings I've noticed that the very notion of diversity is being contested.  Programming choice is important, but I believe our interest is more fundamental.  The open and free exchange of information, opinion and culture is central to our democracy and to our economy.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17260             History seems to indicate that as beneficial as an open market for ideas might be, it is something that must be chosen, built and nurtured.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17261             In our context, diversity means the availability of a wide range of unique perspectives which allow us to make better decisions about our lives and our society.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17262             In my written submission I describe some of the characteristics of the current mass media environment which should be considered when making policy in a world of both greater choice and increased concentration of media ownership.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17263             This discussion cannot be reduced to a simplistic attack on commercial media as a whole.  Private media has a place in any media environment and can serve the public interest in several ways, however, Canada's media scape is at this moment in history overwhelmingly dominated by the commercial media model and I believe that the dominance of any single organizational model for media makes true diversity more difficult.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17264             As I wrote, within a competitive environment all media institutions, commercial, public and community will attempt to maximize the welfare of their owners and stakeholders.  This is expressed in a variety of ways from overt control of editorial policy to a more common and subtle bias.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17265             The pioneering work of economist Thomas Schelling in the 1970s showed that small, individual biases on the part of decision‑makers can result, on aggregate, in overwhelmingly biased outcomes for which no one person or group seems to be responsible.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17266             There is likely no means by which this sort of bias could be eliminated, nor would that be a desired objective.  In a democratic society media owners and stakeholders have the right to express their opinions as do others, including producers, reporters, program hosts and guests.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17267             Some have suggested this week that consolidation leads to greater diversity.  This is simply not supported by real world evidence.  According to Mulhulathan (ph) and Schlaefer (ph) of MIT and the National Bureau of Economic Research, diversity of audiology correlates with diversity of media ownership.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17268             As well, and I think this is quite important, commercial media owners, whatever their differing interests and opinions on other matters, will typically be biased toward commercial media models and business‑oriented policy generally.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17269             Again, these opinions are legitimate and they should be part of the public discourse, but they should not dominate or be the only set of opinions available to the public.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17270             Related to audiological bias is the problem of scope; that is, the range of opinion and amount of information that is available to the public through mass media.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17271             American Communications researcher Jim Kypers (ph) has conducted extensive content studies of mainstream media coverage in the United States focusing on the differences between information supplied to the media, such as political speeches, and how this information is reported.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17272             His work, which sits outside the usual audiological debates about media bias, has consistently shown that the mainstream media operate within a very narrow range of political beliefs.  A wide range of minority views across the ideological spectrum are typically ignored.  Kypers (ph) argues that the North American media, in fact, stifles alternative voices and paints an incredibly inaccurate picture of issues and ideas.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17273             The danger of this narrowness is that the public has little or no idea what they are not being told.  One of the reasons for this narrowness of scope is, ironically, commercial competition.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17274             In a competitive environment, information can be simplified or exaggerated to make a story more interesting and, therefore, more appealing to audiences.  This can be seen in the history of, for example, CNN.  It was once the only all‑news provider in the cable TV space in North America but, in the face of increased competition, CNN has moved away from traditional reporting to present more programming which is, in the words of a network executive, more emotionally gripping.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17275             Scope relates to another characteristic of the current media system in Canada; the emergence of a two‑tiered environment.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17276             Traditional mass media, newspapers, radio and television, typically use open technological standards and are distributed using public conveyances.  However, many newer media technologies, cable television, satellite radio and TV, some forms of digital radio and broadcasting to mobile phones, use proprietary technologies and closed private distribution systems.  The owners of these closed systems often enjoy natural monopolies and can pick and choose what content to make available to their customers.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17277             The limitations of these emerging systems are most apparent in the world of Internet access and Internet service providers are the ultimate information gate keepers.  Most exist in monopoly or duo‑monopoly environments with limited consumer choice.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17278             Canada's telecommunications and cable companies are exploring the option of preferential treatment for some content providers which they own or with whom they have business relationships.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17279             Bell Canada, which controls the bulk of Canada's Internet backbone, has stated that network diversity or neutrality should be determined by market forces and not by regulations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17280             And ISPs do use their powers as gate keepers.  In 2005, Telus Corporation blocked its customers' access to the website of a union engaged in a labour dispute with the company.  By its actions Telus also accidentally blocked an additional 766 other websites.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17281             In this environment, how can we encourage and protect real diversity?  First, the Commission should place an immediate moratorium on future mergers until clear and understandable limits on concentration of ownership have been put into place.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17282             This will be a significant challenge, but the recommendations made this week by the CBC and others represent a realistic starting point.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17283             I would recommend that the Commission initiate a study or a meta study of similar rules in other jurisdictions examining the circumstances of countries ranked in media diversity measures such as the Reporters Without Borders World Wide Press Freedom Index.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17284             The Commission can be more proactive in creating the research necessary for policy making.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17285             Second, and I believe more important, the Commission can take a more active role in the development of independent and community media.  This means licensing independent and smaller commercial applicants as well as working with the community media sector to make it a full partner in our country's media system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17286             Canadian governments and broadcast regulators have, in the past, taken too passive an approach to the development of community media depending heavily on the centralized public broadcaster as a counterweight to the increased commercialization of the media.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17287             A primary objective for the Commission could be the development of mechanisms for community media capacity building in partnership with community media producers and other stakeholders.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17288             Innovation happens at the margins of the mainstream and true diversity depends on it.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17289             Third, the Commission might address the emerging two‑tiered media which is seeing an increase in closed networks and proprietary distribution technologies.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17290             The Commission could require Canadian licensed satellite radio providers and similar services to provide a reasonable portion of band width to third party independent and community media.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17291             More importantly, the Commission could issue clear regulations concerning the conduct of Internet service and backbone providers that embody the core principles of network openness; freedom to access content, freedom to run applications and freedom to attach devices.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17292             Finally, I suggest that the Commission examine its consultative processes with the objective of broader public involvement.  You call this process a public process, but few members of the public have been able to participate.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17293             I notice that many important submissions from the public have been lumped under the heading of "In Comment:  Numerous Letters on the CRTC Website" with no indication of how many were submitted, who sent them or in partnership with what organizations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17294             It is no wonder that this proceeding is dominated by stakeholders who have a clear and usually commercial interest in the outcome.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17295             I fear that your public process is impenetrable to the majority of Canadians and that this could lead to an unfortunate level of cynicism about your decisions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17296             I urge you to reach out to ordinary Canadians who care deeply about their country and its media, but who have no means to effectively tell you what they think.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17297             Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17298             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for your thoughtful interventions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17299             Let me first deal with the NCCRA.  You are making a very strong plea that local and campus community radio stations have a big impact, huge as you said, and they're really the voice of the local community.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17300             As part of my job I visit radio stations all across the country and there is not one who doesn't tell me that localness is the essence of radio, we depend on being local, we have to reflect the community, we have to be part of it and we pride ourself in our local roots and what we do, et cetera, and everybody explains to me ‑‑ which is quite an amazing array of activities that they have in order to.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17301             So, what do they do that you ‑‑ I mean, they have the same goal as you, to reflect the community et cetera.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17302             Why aren't they doing the job?  Why do you feel that ‑‑ you quite correctly say, they have their place, but we do something more than they do, whatever.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17303             Maybe you could explain that to me.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17304             MR. LIGHT:  First, just for a clarification.  Have you visited any campus or community stations throughout the country during your visits?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17305             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17306             MR. LIGHT:  Which ones?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17307             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are asking me too much because I have visited by now about a hundred, but I have visited about dozens.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17308             MS PENHALE:  My opinion is that regardless of being commercial or non‑commercial, it's obvious that you can have a relationship with the people in your community when you're there, but when you're organized differently, in that you're non‑profit, you affect people differently because the content doesn't have to be commercially viable.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17309             It can be, for example, someone can come in and do sound art, they can play an hour of sounds that they've recorded in the woods.  It sounds sort of esoteric and obscure, but to some audience it's beautiful to turn that on and listen to that in their living room in the morning or whatever.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17310             There can also be room for obscure music genres or very in‑depth, long form radio documentaries that commercial, even local commercial broadcasters just don't have the capacity to play.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17311             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, I was just struck by your comment in paragraph 12, you said:

                      "Commercial media becomes more centralized, homogenized and less locally oriented."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17312             As I said, commercial radios that I have spoken to have suggested...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17313             Now, you are saying they may be local but they are local commercial, anything local that is non‑commercial is nothing, they just ‑‑ they don't cover.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17314             I don't want to put words in your mouth.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17315             MR. LIGHT:  I think we're talking about two different things.  One, that we understand small, independent local stations, but in these hearings we've heard other groups, commercial groups talk about how when CHUM and Bell Globemedia merged the very next day 280 staff, all primarily dedicated to local content, were laid off.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17316             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, but that was television and we are talking radio now, right.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17317             MS PENHALE:  We also ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17318             THE CHAIRPERSON:  There is a distinct difference when you talk to the radio ‑‑ I mean, for the radio people localness is sort of enshrined up here, is our mantra, that is why I'm picking on this point.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17319             MR. LIGHT:  I think localness is also ‑‑ for us it's necessarily, it's participatory.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17320             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17321             MR. LIGHT:  None of you I'm sure can walk into a radio ‑‑ maybe you can ‑‑ but walk into a commercial or CBC station and produce your own program because you're a member of the local community.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17322             And there's a huge difference in a commercial station providing content about the communities they live in and the communities themselves reflecting their values, reflecting their experiences on the air.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17323             MS PENHALE:  We also mentioned in our presentation that there's no risk or concern that our stations face for being consolidated with any other stations or purchased by someone in another location.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17324             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, the other thing you suggest, you want to set up a national newscast.  Isn't that a contradiction in term?  I mean, you have just told me you are local, you want to reflect the local ‑‑ that part of the local community that doesn't find a voice or participation on commercial radio.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17325             Why then do you want to go national?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17326             MR. LIGHT:  I think it's not necessarily that we want to go national, we already coordinate nationally, we're many stations in the same position and we ‑‑ national news is an issue that lacks much independent coverage and a lot of our stations provide that coverage in their local context and share their experiences together.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17327             So, for us, we'd like to do both, we have strong local standing, strong local activity but, at the same time, we feel a great need to develop an independence nationally and an independent perspective on national politics, an independent perspective on everything that happens in this country.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17328             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, the national newscast would be more the emphasis on independent rather than the local connection that you have talked about so far?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17329             MS PENHALE:  Independent and in depth.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17330             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17331             MS KAESTNER:  Yeah, and incorporating views from a number of different areas.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17332             But I think it's also worth nothing that specifically for the NCRA in developing the ground wire news project, it has another function and, that is, there is a desire for our stations to create viable news departments, like just to even be able to have a locally‑based news program for a half an hour a day or even if it's to do, you know, smaller segments or larger segments.  Some stations do have hour ‑‑ daily hour newscasts.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17333             But we find that, you know, especially when a station is faced with fewer resources, they don't have staff, they don't have somebody dedicated to developing a news department.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17334             There's a lot of barriers to creating something that doesn't exist, and the NCRA have the desire to create the ground wire project to help out.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17335             I mean, in a sense it's almost like what AVR is doing, right.  If you want to establish news departments at stations across the country, having something like ground wire that ‑‑ well, okay, maybe you can't produce your local news there, you can start to incorporate elements of ground wire, use that as a training tool and those sorts of things.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17336             So, it's worth noting that there's two functions for that project.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17337             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17338             Mr. Harris, I listened to your presentation with great interest.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17339             You are at the wrong hearing, we are going to have a hearing on new media and I expect you will be there.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17340             MR. STEVENSON:  I was just starting, really.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17341             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And a lot of things that you were saying is really very much applicable to that hearing.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17342             But, to the extent, I'm not suggesting you are at the wrong hearing, what I mean is I hope you will be there because a lot of the points that you are making are germane to what we are going to consider there.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17343             But you mentioned one thing that really ‑‑ in paragraph 14 you talk about something called Reporters Without Borders World Wide Press Freedom Index.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17344             What is this animal, I have never heard of it?  And how do they measure ‑‑ freedom of the press, I guess, is what they are focusing on.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17345             MR. STEVENSON:  They are a number of non‑governmental organizations internationally that are concerned with human rights and Reporters Without Borders, it's a ‑‑ I believe it's based in Paris.  They track harassment or government or corporate dangers to free expression to the free press.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17346             So, if a reporter is being held in a jail in a country, they will notify their membership.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17347             And every year they publish this press index.  So, they're actually an ongoing ‑‑ they're doing ongoing watchdog activities of essentially diversity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17348             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And Thomas Schelling's study which you referred to in paragraph 5.  Your summary says that:

                      "...individual biases on the part of decision‑makers can result, on aggregate, in overwhelmingly biased outcomes..."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17349             How am I supposed to read that?  Is this a reference to the ownership of newspapers' owners being reflected in a multi‑pedal way by the journalists who work for that owner?  Is that what you are getting at?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17350             MR. STEVENSON:  Schelling did work in the 70s on why housing segregation exists in the United States and he recorded very small biases on the part of homeowners in American cities to live near people like them.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17351             It wasn't ‑‑ he found that most people were not overly racist or strongly racist.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17352             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17353             MR. STEVENSON:  They were mildly ‑‑ they want to live near relatives or friends or what have you.  But, on aggregate, taken together a number of smaller decisions resulted in very severe segregation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17354             So, there has been discussion this week about, you know, why does bias happen, is there ‑‑ are people ‑‑ journalists influenced by the beliefs of the owners or the editors.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17355             And my point is that there may be ‑‑ I expect there are a number of small biases that people bring to the creation of content and that this results in what many people outside of commercial media would see as fairly significant biases against certain perspectives, particularly non‑commercial perspectives.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17356             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are you working by analogy here?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17357             MS KAESTNER:  Yeah.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17358             MR. STEVENSON:  Yeah.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17359             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17360             MR. STEVENSON:  Because this is a very difficult ‑‑ in preparation for this I did a lot of research on bias and, as you probably know, it's a very slippery research topic, it's filled with a lot of bias ‑‑ research bias itself.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17361             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  And very difficult in evaluating data.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17362             MR. STEVENSON:  Mm‑hmm.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17363             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Great difficulty in evaluating data, you know, because there can be so many factors that impact on and produce a bias, to isolate one can be very difficult.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17364             MR. STEVENSON:  Mm‑hmm.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17365             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  I think my colleagues have some questions for you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17366             Andre?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17367             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  I will mainly ask you questions about the Community Radio Fund of Canada which I just received, so you will have to excuse me, I didn't have time to read it.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17368             But I noted that it's presented jointly with ARC du Canada and l'Association des readiofiffusseurs communautaires du Québec.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17369             Am I correct?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17370             How does this document differ from the position you presented in the last radio policy review in the fall of 2006?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17371             Could you give us some ‑‑ you know, indicate or highlight what the modifications are.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17372             MR. LIGHT:  We haven't made any modifications, per se.  We figured there are new Commissioners on the Commission since that hearing, since the commercial policy review, so we wanted to take the opportunity to transmit the information in person to everyone.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17373             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  So, it's not a version 2, it's not a different document than ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17374             MR. LIGHT:  No, we're working from the same ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17375             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  The way you presented it in your oral presentation led me to believe that this is an entirely new document.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17376             MR. LIGHT:  No, it's the same document but we have made progress to the point where in two weeks or so from this hearing we will be filing for an incorporation of the Fund.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17377             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  Okay.  Now, I do have a question concerning the funding of this Fund ‑‑ the funding of the Fund, yes.  It's a little pléonastique, as we say in French.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17378             In your written submission you say here:

                      "We ask that the Commission mandate commercial broadcasters to contribute a minimum of one per cent of Canadian content..."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17379             I would think that you mean development instead of benefits because you bracketed CCD:

                      "...on the Community Radio Fund of Canada."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17380             It's one per cent of what; one per cent of the envelope of contribution or it's one per cent of their revenues?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17381             MS KAESTNER:  We have, since the time perhaps before, but at least since the time of the commercial radio review, we had originally made a recommendation to increase the benefits from six to seven per cent, so we had proposed at that time that  one per cent should actually be added in as a mandatory requirement for the Fund and then that would still leave the one per cent discretionary allocations for broadcasters.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17382             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  But the six per cent, you are talking the benefits when there are transactions, or you are talking the yearly contribution to Canadian content development?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17383             MS KAESTNER:  It's for transactions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17384             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  For transactions.  So, it would be one per cent of the transaction price?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17385             MS KAESTNER:  Oh yes, yeah.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17386             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  Okay.  Because it's not quite clear what you have in mind here, one per cent of the ‑‑ okay.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17387             How does it mesh with what I have seen in the ‑‑ your colleagues of l'Association des radiodiffuseurs communautaires who are squarely asking for half a per cent of revenues, because you say it's a common Fund and you're asking for one per cent of the tangible benefits payable on a transaction; they're asking for .5 per cent of gross revenues of the 10 largest broadcasters in Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17388             Did you have communications between yourself before you decided on who's asking what from whom?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17389             MS KAESTNER:  There have been communications.  I think that when ‑‑ the NCRA in preparing its submission we were trying to remain consistent with what we were asking for before, so I just think that that's part of the issue and I ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17390             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  So, there's been communications but not consensus?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17391             MS KAESTNER:  I wouldn't say that there hasn't been consensus, maybe it's more about specific communication on that detail.  Perhaps there has been just a lack of a detailed communication on that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17392             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  Because this could mean a lot of difference in the number, you know, in the money that would be collected.  It's an entirely different ball game.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17393             MR. LIGHT:  I would say that we're open to both.  On one side we understand that the commercial policy was just reviewed and that reviewing the benefits policy within it would be ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17394             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  Did you make any evaluation of what this would bring in in terms of dollars on an annual basis?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17395             MR. LIGHT:  For us there's no way to determine what the results of unforeseen mergers are going to be.  What we'd like to do is work with the Commission and Heritage to develop a regular sustainable funding mechanism for community broadcasting.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17396             The benefits policy, it's not ideally what we want, it's what is there.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17397             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  Wouldn't it be, I don't know, more productive if you could put your act together, all those organizations, before you come to us to ask us a piece of this and a piece of that and a piece of that and no evaluation is made of what it really means?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17398             Is that a yes?

‑‑‑ Laughter/Rires

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17399             MS KAESTNER:  Yes.  I think it's just ‑‑ I mean, speaking personally from my own personal standpoint there's just ‑‑ it's really, it's really hard to figure out what the best solution should be and, for me personally, I think that's just where some of the confusion is coming from.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17400             MR. LIGHT:  For us, I think we would much rather I think engage in real dialogue with the Commission and with Commission Staff about this instead of doing all of the development work ourselves and presenting a model that maybe doesn't work for the Commission.  We'd rather develop something in real partnership with the CRTC and with Heritage.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17401             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  But maybe you could prepare alternatives and put numbers on them, because here we are, you know, sort of pulling numbers out of a tree and it's a little difficult to see where you're going with your Fund.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17402             You say it's a united approach of the three associations, but ARC du Canada doesn't put any number on their initiative, you put one per cent of the tangible benefits and ARC ‑‑ l'Association des radiodiffuseurs communautaires du Québec is at .5 per cent of gross revenues of the 10 largest broadcasters.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17403             So, we are all over the map here.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17404             MR. LIGHT:  At the same time, I ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17405             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  We don't know where you're going.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17406             MR. LIGHT:  ‑‑ I believe when we presented the Fund in the commercial radio review and when we met with the Commission in person in May, we had said we would like a minimum of $5‑million annually coming from commercial radio through some mechanism.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17407             It could be benefits, it could be revenue, but that's a number and ideally we would like a Fund that can work with $18‑million annually with money being contributed from Heritage.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17408             So, we have laid out ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17409             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  But maybe you have a bit more homework to do to get us a position that is liveable because you don't even have projections of what these figures will yield in terms of benefits.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17410             I remember that you had some help from some broadcasters at the time, maybe those people can still help you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17411             MS KAESTNER:  We can try to ‑‑ we can try to put something together in the short term and submit it as part of our follow‑up to this proceeding, if time and resources allow for us to do that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17412             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Just one problem on your thing.  You want to work with the Commission.  That is really not our role, our role is a facilitator to furnish you with information and explain the regulatory system to you, but decisions which we make are based on submissions which come from stakeholders such as yours.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17413             We can't on the one hand sit down with you and work out a model and then have a public hearing saying, is this model acceptable.  You know, that's not how we work.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17414             So, while we facilitate and assist you, the initiative and the thinking and the conceptualization has to come from you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17415             MS PENHALE:  I just wanted to thank you and that we take your point.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17416             The bottom line that we're presenting is that we have fiscally unsustainable organizations right now that rely ‑‑ that have been relying on these voluntary contributions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17417             And it is difficult for the three associations to work together.  For example, the two of us who have put together this presentation and the rest of the board are all volunteers that have regular day jobs and family commitments.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17418             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  But I remember when you came to the Commission you were in the good hands of Mr. Goldstein, I think, who was trying to help you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17419             MR. LIGHT:  In May?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17420             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17421             MR. LIGHT:  He was not with us, no.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17422             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  He was not with you but he helped you prepare that document; no?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17423             MR. STEVENSON:  No.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17424             MR. LIGHT:  No.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17425             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  David Goldstein?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17426             MR. STEVENSON:  No.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17427             MR. LIGHT:  No.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17428             MS KAESTNER:  No, he didn't.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17429             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  He didn't?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17430             MR. STEVENSON:  No.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17431             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  Okay, thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17432             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ron, I believe you have some questions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17433             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes, Mr. Chair, thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17434             Mr. Stevenson, I have a few questions on your presentation, both written and oral today.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17435             You agree with the CBC's recommendations that the Commission limit single company ownership of media in a given market to 35 per cent of that market.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17436             Is that your own opinion, or would it have an impact on community and campus radio?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17437             MR. STEVENSON:  I would generally support that sort of ‑‑ that sort of limitation and style of limitation.  I think that the number is a judgment call.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17438             I'm more concerned about more non‑commercial voices in the mix.  As I said, I believe that the system is healthier if there are more non‑commercial voices.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17439             I also appreciate that consolidation is going to lead to a stronger set of media companies, I just think we have to strike a balance between too many and too few.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17440             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Are there specific initiatives that you would recommend other than generally more non‑commercial broadcasting entities?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17441             And other than mandating a funding policy, what could the Commission do to ensure the survival and contribution of campus radio stations to the broadcasting system?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17442             MR. STEVENSON:  Outside of a funding mechanism?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17443             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17444             MR. STEVENSON:  I think that the Commission should ‑‑ and I know that the Chairman has stated that the Commission has to deal with alternatives and proposals ‑‑ but what I've seen in other jurisdictions, and most other jurisdictions in the western world is some sort of a policy or approach to non‑commercial media.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17445             And I know that the CRTC has a policy and I think it's time to refresh or renew that policy and see after 30 years, 35 years of licensing these kinds of entities where are we compared to other countries and what could we do to strengthen the sector generally, and not necessarily financially only, but through licensing and facilitating communication.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17446             If you look at the Canadian scene you'll notice that the Quebec community stations are ‑‑ they have quite a mature sector and that's because there was some strategic intervention early on in the development of those stations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17447             We're seeing a similar kind of strategic intervention in the United Kingdom which has only had community radio for five or six years, but the regulator in the United Kingdom has a community radio program, a very limited set of funding aimed toward capacity building.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17448             And my fear is that in another five years we're going to have a very mature sector in the United Kingdom when in English Canada we won't have one just because a simple set of interventions from the government and from the regulator haven't taken place.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17449             So, I think that the reality of dealing with these kinds of media is that the Commission has to take a little bit of a different role than it would adjudicating commercial licences or commercial disputes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17450             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17451             When assessing diversity of voices in a particular market, if there was a community campus radio station existing, should the Commission allow more concentration of ownership for private broadcasters in that type of scenario?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17452             MR. STEVENSON:  I would ‑‑ I think  that since in English Canada the vast majority of listening is to commercial media, probably about 90 per cent, the one to five per cent of listening represented by campus and community radio, it may not have enough of an impact in that community that I would change the numbers for that community in terms of 35 versus 40 per cent.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17453             Again it's ‑‑ to me it's, part of the equation would have to be strengthening that existing non‑commercial licensee in that community.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17454             Certainly the alternative that that campus community station would provide in that community would be important, but unless it's strengthened I wouldn't see any reduction in the numbers for concentration in that community.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17455             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You recommend that the Commission requires Canadian licensed satellite radio providers and similar services to provide a reasonable portion of band width to community broadcasting.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17456             Have you discussed this possibility with any of the satellite providers?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17457             MR. STEVENSON:  During the satellite radio process, the licensing process which is now several years ago, we made an intervention to that effect and we attempted to speak with the people who were running those bids at that time.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17458             CHUM at that point was ‑‑ had a bid on the table and we developed a relationship with them that would have resulted in access to band width.  Unfortunately, CHUM did not proceed with their service.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17459             We've had some minimal contact with XM Radio, we have made some suggestions to them.  They have said that they are not interested in this point.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17460             Sirius Canada, unfortunately ‑‑ and I sound like a broken record whenever I say it ‑‑ but they don't return phone calls, they don't return letters.  I feel jilted by Sirius Canada, even though I like their service.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17461             And this is the danger of having these closed systems.  The traditional media, it's healthy but it's shrinking in terms of audience, slowly shrinking.  It's these other services that are growing rapidly, Internet‑based radio, satellite radio and so on.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17462             It's not a question of forcing them to turn over 30 per cent of their band width, it's really about opening up a chunk, 10 per cent or less of what they have to third party non‑profit organizations essentially as part of their public service.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17463             So, we have approached them and we continue to be open to them and we think it would enhance their services.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17464             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  In your remarks this morning you spoke about our public process and the inability to ‑‑ in your perception, for broader public involvement.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17465             Do you have any specific suggestions on how we may consider improving the public process?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17466             MR. STEVENSON:  I think ‑‑ well, I mentioned that because I was involved with speaking with one of the organizations that sponsored the, I guess what was a form fax that was sent as part of this process and I know that the amount of time that people put in to filling out these online forms and pushing the button is not very much, it's only a few minutes, but for that person to do that as an individual, taking their own time and being concerned about the issue, it's important and their names at least should be listed on the website along with their submissions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17467             And that's one way to indicate that that opinion is worth something within this process.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17468             I've learned over the years that you come to the Commission, you ask to speak, you present specific proposals, that's the only way that your issues are going to be discussed seriously.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17469             And I think we have to understand that there's an issue of scale here, that an individual who's concerned about media reform can't put together a brief with ratios and so on, it's just not possible, but the support that they have for the ideas or for the proposals of others are important.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17470             You know, I know that one organization ‑‑ I think there was over a thousand submissions that were sponsored by that organization and that makes it as important as some of the other stakeholders that appear here.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17471             It would be useful if the Commission held actually public town meetings across the country with people to talk about a range of issues.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17472             I think even polling, asking ‑‑ you know, commissioning polls about some of the issues  that you're discussing will give you a good idea.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17473             And, again, I'm very appreciative of the open process and having been invited many times to speak.  So, it's just that reaching out to the communities a bit more will have a great benefit for everyone I think.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17474             MR. LIGHT:  If I can add something too.  For me it's quite telling to be in the room with a media table with no media at it and there's been a pretty huge void of media coverage ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17475             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You know, you are on live TV.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17476             MR. LIGHT:  I'm happy to be on live TV.

‑‑‑ Laughter/Rires

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17477             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, so to say you're in a room without media is just technically not correct.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17478             MR. STEVENSON:  Actually, it is interesting because I follow ‑‑ I have a Google news aggregator that tells me every time the CRTC is mentioned in some site ‑‑ website.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17479             And it's interesting watching the coverage this week, start out with some reporting about how concentration equals diversity, which I saw as a headline which I thought was Orwellian and almost funny, and then a decline, only the Globe and Mail seemed to do regular reporting, and I'm pretty sure today they're won't be a story about what we said here from Grant Robinson, but usually the last few days there would be.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17480             And, you know, we are the media ourselves, but this is the kind of problem that ‑‑ I mean, that goes to the heart of what my concerns would be about what's happening in this country.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17481             I mean, CanWest Global, their website had the same story, all the websites for the newspapers, canada.com, it's all the same story and the headline is, you know, concentration is diversity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17482             And, you know, it's a bit strange.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17483             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You won't get any argument from us, concentration is diversity is totally Orwellian, I agree with you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17484             MR. STEVENSON:  Oh, I made it sound Orwellian.  I'm sure that on Monday it sounded much more convincing, but...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17485             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17486             Michel, you had a question?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17487             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes.  Mr. Stevenson, you referred to the U.K. community radio program and, as you know, Ofcom is managing some funds that goes to the community radio in the U.K., but that money doesn't come either from the broadcasters, neither from Ofcom per se, they receive the moneys from, I don't know which department, at least from the government.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17488             MR.STEVENSON:  Mm‑hmm.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17489             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Then they reallocate it for the community radio purpose.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17490             Obviously here you've been coming to see us, I'm sure that you've been speaking also to Heritage Canada, and are you making some headway with Heritage?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17491             MR. STEVENSON:  Heritage has commissioned what we feel is a very important report on the economic impact and state of community radio in Canada.  People are meeting with the consultants this week coming up who will be conducting the report.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17492             We're very happy because I work in a quasi‑governmental organization, I know how slowly the budget wheels can turn.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17493             I think ‑‑ so, I think we are making headway, I think we also see it as a long‑term project barring any kind of change that might take place.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17494             When we conceived of the Community Radio Fund, one of the ideas that we had about it was that it would be not simply a government program but more similar to the Australian Community Radio Fund where there would be private and public contributions to the fund.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17495             The model that I typically have seen internationally is, you know, strong government involvement and I think that's appropriate.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17496             We also in Canada have the benefits process and I think it's appropriate for us to be looking for support through that process as well.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17497             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Have you contemplated also contacting some foundations that may have some money for projects like yours?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17498             MR. STEVENSON:  We certainly have and it's really an issue of capacity.  Everybody ‑‑ Melissa is the only full‑time employee at the National Community Radio Association, the rest of us are volunteers and we get an awful lot done with our volunteer work but, at the same time, fund raising is very difficult, making the contacts, it's all about building relationships and that's difficult in a volunteer‑based organization.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17499             I think what I would like to see is a very minimal amount of support in the shorter term that would lead to a critical mass that would allow us to build the kind of relationships with government and industry and so on that would get us moving forward.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17500             We're just not in people's minds right now, at least ‑‑ I mean, we're now more than we were two years ago, so.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17501             And we're dealing ‑‑ you know, my station in Ottawa has a very small budget, it's $300,000 and we have hundreds of volunteers, hundreds of hours of programming.  We know that we can do a lot with a little bit, but we need that ‑‑ you know, we need that seed.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17502             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Obviously, you referred earlier in your oral presentation to the community media policy as you ‑‑ no, over the years has helped out the coming of a good number of radio stations, now we're starting to get some applications for community television.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17503             If the Commission has to prioritize for the future, what's your view; should they prioritize in favour of television rather than radio because there is already a lot of radio stations across the land?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17504             I understood from the earlier presentation that when you drove from Vancouver to ‑‑ from Victoria towards the east that there were some spots where there were no community radio stations, you mentioned Kelowna as a good case in point, but overall there is hundreds of community radio stations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17505             MR. LIGHT:  I believe there are 146 or so licensed community broadcasters and roughly almost twice as many licensed community television or holders of community television licences, according to the CRTC website at least.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17506             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I'm talking over‑the‑air ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17507             MR. STEVENSON:  Yeah.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17508             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  ‑‑ community television.  I don't think there's even one licensed.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17509             MR. STEVENSON:  I know that I can't speak for the entire working group.  I know that we see a lot of requests from rural communities for radio of their own and urban areas are covered fairly well, some more than others.  So, the development is probably in tandem where there's an emphasis on rural development and improving urban stations, and certainly in terms of urban community TV stations, I don't think there's any conflict, I think that there's development that needs to happen on both sides.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17510             I hope that they don't ‑‑ they don't use the same frequencies; right?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17511             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  No, no.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17512             MR. STEVENSON:  They're all UHF and...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17513             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yeah.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17514             MR. STEVENSON:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17515             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  They use different frequencies, yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17516             MR. STEVENSON:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17517             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  No impact on the FM spectrum.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17518             MR. STEVENSON:  No.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17519             MS KAESTNER:  And maybe too if it can be suggested, if there ‑‑ if it comes down to some point of making priorities, making choices and what kind of impact is going to happen that it's not like, you know, needing to decide this right now, that maybe there can be some consultative process that brings different aspects of community media together ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17520             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Mind you, they're doing their applications within the framework of the community media policy of 1990.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17521             MR. STEVENSON:  Mm‑hmm.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17522             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  They only took 17 years before starting to get it ‑‑ to put together their plan.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17523             MS KAESTNER:  Yeah.  I don't think there's any doubt in people's minds, it certainly would take ‑‑ there's a lot ‑‑ there's many more aspects to developing a television ‑‑ over‑the‑air television station than a radio station.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17524             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you, Mr. Stevenson.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17525             MR. STEVENSON:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17526             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you, Ms Kaestner.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17527             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Those are all the questions for you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17528             I appreciate your coming in and making this presentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17529             I think we will take a five‑minute break, Madam Boulet, before we move to the next panel.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17530             MS KAESTNER:  Oh, if I can just really quickly add, as part of our ‑‑ you might notice with our written presentation that there is an appendix dealing with a project called "Dig Your Roots", and it's just an example of a voluntary contributive relationship between the NCRA and Corus.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17531             So, during the break I'll probably be distributing those to you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17532             Thanks.

‑‑‑ Recessed at 1130 / Suspension à 1130

‑‑‑ Resumed at 1135 / Reprise à 1135

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17533             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madame Boulet, do you want to introduce our guests?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17534             LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci, Monsieur le Président.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17535             Nous procéderons maintenant aux interventions de l'Alliance des radios communautaires du Canada et de l'Association des radiodiffuseurs communautaires du Québec.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17536             Nous débuterons avec la présentation de l'Alliance des radios communautaires.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17537             J'invite M.Serge Paquin à nous présenter son collègue, et puis vous aurez 10 minutes pour votre présentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17538             Monsieur Paquin.

INTERVENTION

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17539             M. PAQUIN : Merci beaucoup.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17540             Monsieur le Président, mesdames, messieurs les commissaires, peut‑être avant de commencer mon allocution, j'aimerais clarifier le point que Commissaire Noël a soulevé, qu'il semble y avoir confusion ou manque de concertation par rapport aux trois organismes en ce qui a trait au Fonds canadien de la radio communautaire.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17541             Je pense que c'est faux.  Depuis le tout début, depuis au moins deux ans, on n'a jamais changé notre discours.  On parle qu'on a besoin de $18millions.  Ce $18 millions là, on a dit qu'on veut aller chercher $10 millions au gouvernement du Canada ‑‑ ça toujours été le même discours ‑‑ $5 millions de contributions des entreprises privées de radiodiffusion, et $3 millions d'autres sources.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17542             Les $5 millions, maintenant, on vous propose des avenues possibles. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17543             NCRA vous a proposé d'augmenter d'un pour cent les contributions aux avantages tangibles.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17544             L'ARC du Québec propose 0,5 pour cent des revenus ou des bénéfices des 10 plus grosses stations. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17545             Moi, je pourrais vous proposer, par exemple, il y a 60 pour cent qui va aller comme contributions à FACTOR.  Dans le 40 pour cent, il pourrait avoir un certain pourcentage qui va directement, obligatoirement, au fonds.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17546             Les avenues sont multiples, et c'est des avenues qu'on vous offre ici.  C'est à vous à voir le choix. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17547             On est tout à fait conscient qu'une nouvelle taxe pour le privé, ce n'est pas très populaire, mais il y a déjà des contributions.  Ils sont déjà obligés par la loi de contribuer un certain montant.  Pourquoi ne pas les obliger à contribuer chez nous, parce que, actuellement, la problématique, c'est des contributions volontaires, puis on ne cogne pas aux partes actuellement pour venir financer ce fonds‑là. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17548             Donc, on est prêt, si vous voulez, de s'asseoir, puis vous dire: On privilégie tel mécanisme, mais le montant est le même, les besoins sont restés les mêmes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17549             Donc, on travaille... on est des groupes bénévoles, on est des groupes communautaires, on travaille fort depuis deux ans pour mettre sur pied ce fonds‑là.  Je ne veux pas que vous pensez qu'on n'est pas concerté.  On a des réunions régulières depuis deux ans.  On travaille, on se rencontre avec les petits moyens qu'on a, mais le discours n'a pas changé. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17550             La méthodologie peut varier, c'est selon les besoins, selon ce qui va peut‑être être le plus, je dirais, le plus facile pour tout le monde, autant pour l'entreprise privée, que pour le CRTC, que pour nous.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17551             Donc, on est ouvert, puis des options, il y en a plusieurs.  Donc, c'est juste pour clarifier ce petit point.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17552             Rapidement, comme vous le savez, au début des années 90, j'étais déjà investi dans le milieu de la radio.  L'entreprise privée allait très mal, puis, je pense que les chiffres parlaient de soi‑même.  Puis il y avait une crise, puis il y avait une récession, on se souviendra, dans ce temps‑là.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17553             Puis, je pense que tout le monde s'est mis d'accord à assouplir les lois.  On a facilité les transactions, on a enlevé des barrières au niveau des contenus de programmation qui étaient contraignantes ou quoi que ce soit. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17554             Donc, on est arrivé, aujourd'hui, avec une radio privée qui est très en santé, qui génère des profits records.  Donc, je pense que ça été un succès, puis, je pense que tout le monde en profite aujourd'hui.  Puis c'était nécessaire de prendre ces mesures‑là, à l'époque.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17555             Puis, je pense que, aujourd'hui, on se rend compte que, bon, on a déréglementé, on a facilité les fusions, et maintenant, on est devant vous pour vous dire, bien là, ça l'a sûrement une incidence sur la diversité des voix.  C'est sûr.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17556             On ne peut pas, à la fois, enlever tous les règlements, puis enlever les quotas, puis des minimums de contenu verbal ou des minimums de contenu de nouvelles locales, et caetera, puis se dire, après ça, bien.  Au bout de la ligne, on vit une situation où est‑ce qu'on craint pour la diversité des voix.  Oui, c'est un effet.  C'est un constat que vous avez fait, puis je pense que c'est tout à fait pertinent.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17557             Ce qu'il faut comprendre aussi, c'est que les gens, la majorité des Canadiens et Canadiennes aime la radio de divertissement, et c'est ce que les radios privées font, et elles le font bien.  Elles font de la radio qui amuse les gens, qui divertit les gens, et c'est un choix que le consommateur a.  Il peut écouter, aujourd'hui, de la radio de divertissement, et il y a du choix, et il y en a de la radio de divertissement.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17558             Parallèlement à ça, il reste la radio publique et la radio communautaire, qui, soit par réglementation ou soit par choix, ont du contenu local, ont du contenu intéressant, des débats de fond sur différentes questions qui préoccupent les Canadiens et les Canadiennes, qui préoccupent les auditeurs, et c'est ça qu'on fait de mieux, nous, et c'est ça qu'on est ici pour vous dire, que c'est pour ça qu'on est là. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17559             C'est notre job.  On veut la faire comme il faut, et pour la faire comme il faut, ce n'est pas en faisant des bingos, pas en faisant des radiothons, puis en faisant des loteries que, pendant ce temps‑là, nos bénévoles s'épuisent, et au bout de la ligne, on n'est pas capable de livrer la marchandise.  C'est ça le problème qu'il y a.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17560             Si les gens veulent écouter, aujourd'hui, de la radio de contenu, ils ont le choix.  Ils peuvent aller à Radio‑Canada.  Ils peuvent aller... s'ils veulent écouter de la radio qui les préoccupe, ils peuvent aller, aujourd'hui, sur une radio communautaire.  On va parler de qu'est‑ce qui s'est passé à l'hôtel de ville dans leur village, et ça, c'est un choix qu'ils ont. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17561             Mais pour qu'on fasse cette job‑là, on a besoin de levier, on a besoin de ressources, et nos troupes sont épuisées, actuellement, et c'est ça un problème. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17562             Mais qu'on nous donne... parce que, on s'entend là, je ne pense pas que les radios privées vont vouloir que le CRTC leur impose des nouvelles mesures, puis augmenter leur contenu local, puis leur contenu verbal, puis augmenter ce qui est des questions de fonds, puis qu'on va commencer à faire de la radio de divertissement une radio de contenu.  Je ne pense pas qu'ils veulent ça, puis je ne pense pas qu'on veut aller en arrière.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17563             Mais aujourd'hui, si on veut aller en avant, il faut donner le moyen à des radiodiffuseurs qui font partie du système, que ça soit les radios communautaires, les radios de campus. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17564             Et je pense que Radio‑Canada a les moyens de faire cette job‑là, puis ils la font bien.  C'est une preuve que quand on a les moyens puis les ressources... Radio‑Canada fait de la très bonne radio, oui, mais ils ont les ressources pour le faire.  Ce n'est pas un problème de budget.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17565             Donc, à partir de ce moment‑là, le constat qu'on fait, c'est s'il existe un fonds qui va faciliter le travail des radios communautaires pour amener une diversité de voix, de contenu éditorial, et caetera, bien, que le CRTC, de concert avec les radios privées, puisse faciliter la mise sur pied de ce fonds‑là.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17566             Donc, je n'ai pas lu tout le texte.  Simon peut peut‑être reprendre vers le milieu du texte.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17567             M. FORGUES : Bien, essentiellement, ce qu'on dit, c'est que... on parle de diversité des voix.  C'est que la principale motivation, selon nous, qui anime les grandes entreprises de radiodiffusion dans leur processus de fusion, comme ceux auxquels on a assisté au cours des dernières années, c'est, essentiellement, pour réaliser les économies d'échelle.  Il n'y a pas à se conter d'histoires là‑dedans.  Ce n'est certainement pas pour créer davantage de stations, puis offrir davantage.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17568             On craint, par conséquent, que ça se traduise, d'abord, par des réductions de personnel, et, éventuellement, par une baisse des services à la population.  D'ailleurs, les exemples d'acquisitions ou encore de fusions qui ont entraîné des fermetures de stations, des suppressions d'emplois, sont assez nombreux. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17569             Comme c'est écrit ici dans la présentation, on n'a qu'à penser, en '94, quand Radiomutuel et Télémédia ont fusionné et que c'est devenu Radiomédia, cela a provoqué, en outre, la fermeture de CJMS, qui était quand même l'une des plus importantes stations de radio montréalaises. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17570             Ce n'est quand même pas peu dire là quand on ferme une station de cette dimension‑là.  Et pas qu'elle, hein!  Cela a entraîné aussi la fermeture de plusieurs autres stations de radio régionales à travers le Québec: CJRP, entre autres, dans la région de Québec, et d'autres.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17571             Presque chaque acquisition ou fusion de stations se traduit par la centralisation des opérations, particulièrement au chapitre décisionnel, contenu en ondes, ce qui a rapport aux émissions, musique, ou encore les nouvelles. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17572             Je parle en connaissance de cause parce que, à une certaine époque, j'ai travaillé dans un réseau majeur, dont je tairai le nom.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17573             Mais quand même, il ne faut pas s'étonner, aujourd'hui, que, par exemple, un auditeur d'un réseau qui écoute la station de Rouyn‑Noranda, entend sensiblement, au même moment, sur les ondes de sa station la même chanson, à quelques secondes ou à quelques minutes de différence, que celui de Rimouski dans le Bas‑Saint‑Laurent.  Ce n'est pas de la diversité des voix, ça, en notre sens. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17574             Ça n'existe pas encore là, mais s'il y avait une avion qui nous permettait de faire le Québec de bout en bout en quelque chose comme trois minutes et demie, le temps de la durée d'une chanson, il y a des grosses chances qu'en embarquant dans l'avion à Rouyn‑Noranda, vous entendriez la chanson qui commence, puis vous l'entendriez finir, la même, en changeant de station d'un bout à l'autre de la province.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17575             Outre ça, on reconnaît l'importance des initiatives de support à la relève.  On les salue.  Évidemment, on n'a pas besoin de les nommer, on les connaît.  On estime, quand même, que c'est assez insuffisant en matière d'aide et de visibilité que l'on consacre au nouveau talent. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17576             D'ailleurs, ce qu'on pense, c'est que si elles n'étaient pas contraintes de le faire, il y a des fortes chances ou il y a tout lieu de croire qu'elles n'investiraient pas beaucoup, sinon pas du tout, dans ces plans d'aide à la relève musicale.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17577             Nos stations de radios communautaires francophones offrent davantage de place sur leurs ondes aux artistes de la relève que tout autre radiodiffuseur privé.  D'ailleurs, nos palmarès sont là pour le prouver.  Il ne faut pas s'étonner qu'aujourd'hui des stations de formats musicaux réputés être différents diffusent les mêmes artistes plusieurs fois par semaine, voire même plusieurs fois par jour.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17578             Et avec les fusions, on va encore assister davantage à une centralisation.  C'est‑à‑dire que, jadis, l'artiste prenait son petit bagage, s'en allait faire le tour de 15‑20 stations de radio.  S'il se faisait dire non à Québec, bien, il avait une chance de peut‑être aller convaincre celui de Trois‑Rivières. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17579             Maintenant, l'artiste s'en va à Montréal, il rencontre un directeur musical qui décide pour 10‑12 stations.  S'il se fait dire non à un endroit, vas pas à Trois‑Rivières, puis à Québec pour essayer de vendre ta musique, ils n'accepteront pas, ils sont tenus de jouer ce qu'ils jouent à Montréal.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17580             Alors, voilà, c'est essentiellement ce que moi, j'avais à dire à propos de ça.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17581             M. PAQUIN:  Merci.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17582             Peut‑être juste en conclusion, rapidement.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17583             Dans mon dernier paragraphe, ce que je dis, c'est que les radios communautaires sont pour bien des citoyens le dernier rempart contre cette concentration de la presse et des médias.  Les Canadiens et les Canadiennes ont le droit d'être informés de ce qui se passe chez eux, et non pas de se contenter d'une uniformisation de l'information ou de la programmation. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17584             C'est ce qui est le cas là de... on s'entend, les cotes d'écoute des radios privées, on ne se cachera pas là, ce n'est pas loin de 90 pour cent.  Donc, c'est énorme le pouvoir qu'ils ont sur les auditeurs.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17585             Mais il reste, quand même, 10 pour cent de gens, et peut‑être plus.  Plus qu'on aura de la bonne radio alternative et plus qu'on aura les moyens de faire cette bonne radio là, et plus on ira chercher un certain nombre d'auditeurs qui seront intéressés à nous écouter.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17586             Donc, je pense qu'on reste un...  On fait partie du système canadien de la radiodiffusion, puis je pense que, aujourd'hui, on est devant vous pour vous dire qu'on a besoin d'un coup de main.  On a besoin d'un levier pour que nos communautés soient mieux informées, pour que nos communautés puissent contribuer encore plus, justement, à cette diversité des voix là.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17587             Je vous remercie.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17588             LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame Boulet.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17589             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr.Chairman.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17590             Nous procéderons maintenant avec la présentation de l'Association des radiodiffuseurs communautaires du Québec.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17591             Madame Julie Forest nous présentera son collègue, et vous aurez 10 minutes pour votre présentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17592             Merci.

INTERVENTION

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17593             MME FOREST : Monsieur le Président, Monsieur le Vice‑Président, mesdames et messieurs les conseillers, l'Association des radiodiffuseurs communautaires du Québec est très heureuse de profiter de ces quelques minutes pour tenter d'enrichir le mémoire qu'elle a déposé dans le cadre de la présente audience.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17594             Je suis Julie Forest, directrice générale de l'ARCQ, et je suis accompagnée, à ma gauche, par monsieur Éric Lefebvre, vice‑président du conseil d'administration de l'ARCQ et directeur général de la station CIBL à Montréal.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17595             Aujourd'hui, nous souhaitons faire part à la Commission de certaines menaces qui risquent de mettre en péril la contribution des radios communautaires à la diversité des voix au Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17596             Le souci des membres de l'ARCQ est de continuer à pouvoir développer des services diversifiés de qualité pour les citoyens, souci qui les anime depuis les années soixante‑dix.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17597             Aussi, la trentaine de radios communautaires membres de l'ARCQ contribuent à cette diversité de plusieurs façons, notamment:

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17598             ‑ en permettant à 1200 bénévoles de participer à leurs émissions chaque semaine;

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17599             ‑ en donnant accès à leur micro à plus de 1500 organismes communautaires chaque année;

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17600             ‑ en investissant près de $2 millions annuellement en temps d'antenne pour promouvoir et soutenir les activités communautaires et culturelles locales;

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17601             ‑ en diffusant également des émissions dans une dizaine de langues, en plus de favoriser les rencontres interculturelles sur leurs ondes;

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17602             ‑ en produisant, finalement, près d'un millier de bulletins d'information et 100 heures d'affaires publiques par semaine.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17603             La politique relative à la radio communautaire a dévolu la fourniture d'un service local de programmation qui diffère par son style et son contenu des autres radiodiffuseurs.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17604             De plus, cette même politique stipule que la programmation doit refléter la communauté desservie et offrir de la variété dans le choix des émissions, autant musicales que de créations orales.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17605             Il est convenu que la diversité des voix se mesure en fonction de plusieurs indicateurs: le nombre de sources d'information, et le nombre et le contenu accessible en sont.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17606             Par ailleurs, il ne faut pas perdre de vue que 10 sources qui diffusent le même contenu ne représentent bien qu'une seule et même voix.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17607             Si nous reconnaissons que les Canadiens et les Canadiennes ont de plus en plus accès à de l'information, il est quand même de notoriété publique, du moins au Québec, que la montréalisation et l'homogénéité de l'information font quand même l'objet d'une certaine drogne en provenance des régions.  D'ailleurs, nos dernières élections en témoignent.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17608             À cet égard, la pertinence d'une information diffusée dans une région ou dans un milieu urbain donné, pour certains auditoires, devrait, donc, constituer l'un des éléments évalués pour déterminer s'il s'agit bel et bien d'une information locale.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17609             À l'heure actuelle, il s'avère encore plus facile d'obtenir des nouvelles sur la valeur des dégâts du dernier ouragan que d'être informé d'une campagne de vaccination contre la grippe dans sa propre localité.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17610             Les seuls à offrir une information locale qui reflète véritablement les besoins des communautés desservies sont les radiodiffuseurs communautaires qui sont présents dans les 17 régions du Québec.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17611             Notre propos ne vise pas à exiger des réseaux de la radio indépendante de faire plus qu'ils font déjà, et qui le font bien.  Nous voulons surtout souligner la part indispensable des trois composantes du système à la radiophonie communautaire.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17612             À cet égard, nous ne pouvons éviter d'aborder la disproportion des revenus de chaque composante, afin de rencontrer les objectifs de la loi, dont le contenu et la programmation locale en sont des éléments.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17613             La radio communautaire donne une voix qui n'existerait pas autrement.  Elle en donne une à ceux et celles qui ne seraient pas entendus à la radio commerciale ou à la radio publique.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17614             Qu'elles soient situées à Montréal, à Québec ou en région, les radios communautaires proposent une programmation très différente les unes des autres.  Elles donnent accès à une programmation locale, pertinente et variée qui reflète, et je le souligne, véritablement les intérêts de leur communauté.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17615             Aussi, nous pensons que l'introduction de la notion de pertinence permettrait également une comptabilisation plus représentative, plus transparente de la programmation locale.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17616             De plus, il nous semble que la pertinence s'inscrit bien dans l'esprit de la Loi sur la radiodiffusion et servirait d'autant plus le droit des Canadiens et des Canadiennes à de la diversité.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17617             Nous souhaiterions également que le CRTC soit investi du pouvoir et des moyens lui permettant d'évaluer le respect des conditions de licence, afin d'éviter un détournement desdites mesures, comme cela s'est déjà produit.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17618             De même, un tel pouvoir devrait aussi, nécessairement, pour être efficient et effectif, s'accompagner de celui de pouvoir imposer certaines amendes aux radiodiffuseurs qui ne respecteraient pas les conditions imposées.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17619             Je cède maintenant la parole à monsieur Lefebvre.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17620             M. LEFEBVRE : Merci.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17621             Lorsque le CRTC a accepté le modèle de propriété de licences multiples par un même propriétaire, il y a quand même une forte concurrence qui est apparue pour les radios communautaires dans certaines régions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17622             Les nombreuses transactions réalisées ces dernières années menacent de rendre la voix éditoriale homogène, d'où de lourdes conséquences de diversité et de démocratie. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17623             Une concentration trop importante va à l'encontre du droit à une information diversifiée de voix éditoriales multiples, droit qui risque d'être sacrifié sur l'hôtel de la concentration.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17624             Afin de protéger les valeurs qui sont les nôtres, nous devons veiller à ce qu'une diversité de sources concurrentes de collecte de l'information subsiste.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17625             Sur l'échiquier québécois de la radiophonie, il est connu que deux groupes fortement concentrés représentent les voix dominantes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17626             Qu'une même information puisse être diffusée sur des plates‑formes ou des formats variés sur différentes stations d'un même réseau et même dans plusieurs réseaux, cela ne témoigne rien d'une diversité de voix.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17627             La propriété privée recherche le profit avant tout, la compression des coûts, les économies d'échelle, et donc, pas surprenant que ça soit ce qui est le plus rentable qui s'impose.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17628             Enlevant toute contrainte en tant de matière de publicité lors de la révision de la Politique sur la radio communautaire en 2000, la publicité est devenue la plus importante source de financement des radios communautaires.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17629             Paradoxalement, les décisions rendues au cours des dernières années démontrent qu'à l'occasion de demande de renouvellement de licence de radio commerciale, l'impact sur les revenus publicitaires de la radio communautaire n'est peu considéré.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17630             Nous rappelons que seulement 10 pour cent des revenus des radios communautaires du Québec proviennent de subventions au fonctionnement, alors que les revenus publicitaires constituent 50 pour cent de leurs revenus.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17631             Ailleurs au Canada, aucune radio communautaire ou de campus communautaires n'a accès à des subventions de fonctionnement. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17632             Au Québec, la radio communautaire en région a un auditoire moyen de 40 pour cent, en milieu urbain, un auditoire de 13,7 pour cent, alors qu'ils n'ont que 5 pour cent du marché publicitaire.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17633             Le Rapport de surveillance de la politique sur la radiodiffusion de 2006 rapporte que les revenus publicitaires des radios commerciales progressent, affichant une hausse moyenne de 7 pour cent pour les quatre dernières années.  Ils sont de 10,8 pour cent entre 2004 et 2005.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17634             Les radios commerciales grugent une part de plus en plus importante du marché publicitaire local, alors que les radios communautaires dépendent à 80 pour cent de ce même marché.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17635             Au niveau canadien, les radios communautaires de Type A et B, ajoutées aux radios universitaires de langues anglaise et française, ne détiennent que 2 pour cent des revenus publicitaires.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17636             Le Rapport de surveillance de la politique sur la radiodiffusion de 2006 ne permet pas de distinguer les radios communautaires de langue française et de langue anglaise. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17637             Nous voudrions retrouver une analyse plus complète par marché, tel celui de Montréal et de Québec, pour ne citer que ceux‑ci.  Ce faisant, le CRTC et les associations de radiodiffuseurs communautaires jouiraient de plus de données qui pourraient servir ainsi, afin d'évaluer, par exemple, si tel marché peut réalistement soutenir un nombre important de stations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17638             L'une des façons de rééquilibrer l'industrie et la performance du système radiophonique serait que le CRTC puisse imposer aux radios commerciales qui bénéficient des avantages de la propriété concentrée ou intégrée de contribuer obligatoirement au Fonds canadien de la radiophonie communautaire.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17639             Une contribution de 0,5 pour cent sur les revenus des 10 principaux exploitants de radios commerciales au Canada assurerait un fonds de financement de près de $5 millions, ou bien, à l'instar de MUSICACTION ou de FACTOR, que des avantages tangibles ou une contribution au développement de la programmation musicale soit imposée.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17640             La radio commerciale ayant complètement absorbé le marché publicitaire, donc, la part de marché publicitaire de la radio publique, il nous apparaît juste et équitable qu'elle participe au financement du fonds. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17641             Ce dernier pourrait offrir des programmations de soutien et de développement de la programmation locale des radios communautaires et de campus, tant en zones urbaines que régionales.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17642             Puisqu'il n'y a aucun risque qu'une radio communautaire soit rachetée par un réseau, assurer que la radio communautaire puisse jouir de revenus adéquats pour réaliser sa mission et être présente et vivante partout au Québec et au Canada, c'est justement garantir l'expression de la diversité des voix, la richesse culturelle et sociale.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17643             Merci.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17644             LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci pour votre présentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17645             Monsieur Paquin, dans votre document, vous dites à la page 6:

                      *Le CRTC se doit d'agir et de prendre ses responsabilités face à l'effritement de notre secteur et aux effets pervers de la convergence.+ (Tel que lu)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17646             Je partage ce sentiment.  Dites‑moi, concrètement, qu'est‑ce qui est la chose la plus importante que je peux faire à cet égard là?  Qu'est‑ce que vous me suggérer?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17647             M. PAQUIN : Écoutez, c'est clair que le bilan des radios communautaires est un bilan très positif actuellement en terme d'auditeurs, mais ces auditeurs là sont chèrement acquis, un par un, avec des très petits moyens.  On a des radios qui n'ont même pas un employé permanent.  On a des radios qui ont un employé permanent.  C'est le cas aussi.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17648             Ce que le CRTC peut faire, aujourd'hui, pour notre secteur, c'est s'assurer que notre secteur se concentre sur son mandat et qu'on puisse avoir les moyens de faire ce travail‑là de façon correcte, de façon plus professionnelle, parce que, aujourd'hui, on dépense beaucoup de temps et d'énergie à faire des levées de fonds. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17649             C'est des levées de fonds, des bingos, des radiothons.  On épuise les gens, et on a de la difficulté, par la suite, à se concentrer sur notre mandat.  On manque de ressources pour bien faire ce travail‑là.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17650             Donc, dans un système canadien, je pense qu'on a fait la preuve, on a démontré, et le CRTC a contribué au succès qu'on connaît aujourd'hui de la radio privée. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17651             Je pense que la radio publique, ce n'est pas un problème de financement, on s'entend.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17652             Maintenant, la radio communautaire, le secteur de la radio communautaire est laissé à lui‑même.  On n'a aucune source de financement.  On n'a aucune aide du privé.  On a votre oreille, mais on n'a pas nécessairement les mesures qui vont nous permettre, justement, d'assurer une meilleure qualité de cette diversité des voix là. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17653             Je pense que, aujourd'hui, pour répondre à votre question, si le CRTC peut faire de quoi aujourd'hui, c'est de trouver une façon pour que l'entreprise privée puisse partager une portion de ses revenus, et que cette portion‑là contribue, justement, au contenu du développement du contenu canadien par le biais des institutions des radios communautaires qu'on représente.  Donc, je pense que ça serait une situation gagnante pour tout le monde.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17654             LE PRÉSIDENT: La proposition de vos collègues d'une contribution obligatoire au Fonds canadien de la radiophonie communautaire, un montant de 0,5 pour cent sur le revenu des 10 principaux exploitants de radios commerciales, est‑ce que ça serait une solution selon vous?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17655             M. PAQUIN : Comme je l'ai dit dans mon introduction, il y a plusieurs façon...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17656             LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui, je sais, mais je cherche des solutions concrètes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17657             M. PAQUIN : Oui.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17658             LE PRÉSIDENT : La seule que j'ai écoutée, c'était de vos collègues.  Est‑ce que vous avez une autre ou est‑ce que vous appuyez l'avis de vos collègues?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17659             M. PAQUIN : Je suis d'accord avec cette proposition qui permet d'aller chercher...  C'est toujours la notion de perception, de dire, on va taxer de façon supplémentaire l'entreprise privée.  Je pense que ce n'est pas un discours qui tient la route aujourd'hui.  Ça pourrait être imposé.  Ça pourrait être vu comme une façon de contribuer, facile, dire, on va imposer 5 pour cent des revenus.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17660             Moi, ce que je privilégie, c'est que, aujourd'hui, on le sait que dans les contributions, par rapport aux avantages tangibles, par exemple, vous avez imposé une règle que 60 pour cent obligatoire va à FACTOR/MUSICACTION.  Et aujourd'hui, FACTOR/MUSICACTION n'est pas devant vous pour demander de l'argent, pour commencer à dire, bien là, on ne peut pas faire du développement avec nos artistes.  Ils ont déjà un revenu qui leur permet d'assurer et de bien faire ce travail‑là.  Bravo! 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17661             Maintenant, nous, on est devant vous pour vous dire, notre contribution au système canadien et à la diversité des voix, c'est ce qui nous intéresse ici, notre contribution, elle est importante et elle est réelle, mais on n'a pas de levier, on n'a pas les ressources pour encore mieux faire ce travail‑là.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17662             Donc, moi, je privilégierais d'imposer un pourcentage du 40 pour cent qui reste ‑‑ je n'ai pas les calculs, ça peut être 10 pour cent, par exemple ‑‑ qui, automatiquement, va dans le Fonds canadien de la radio communautaire.  À partir de ce moment‑là, je crois que le gouvernement fédéral serait enclin peut‑être, comme on dit, à matcher ça, et puis on pourrait commencer à parler business.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17663             LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame Forest, votre proposition de cette contribution obligatoire, deux questions.  D'où vient le chiffre de 0,5 pour cent?  Et, deuxièmement, est‑ce que vous avez discuté un tel plan avec les compagnies principales qui doivent payer ce montant?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17664             MME FOREST : Non, ça n'a pas encore été discuté directement.  Ceci dit, dans le mémoire que 2006 sur la révision de la politique commerciale, ce montant‑là avait bel et bien été ventilé et expliqué.  Alors, je vous y réfère.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17665             Mais, effectivement, le 0,5 pour cent était venu de l'idée que nous ne voulions pas que le secteur, et ce n'était pas notre volonté, que le secteur privé soit dans l'obligation de financer totalement le fonds.  Nous ne voulions qu'une portion de leur contribution.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17666             Alors, ayant évalué les besoins de la radiophonie communautaire canadienne à $18 millions, nous avions trouvé, à ce moment‑là, un ratio qui nous semblait intéressant, qui était un peu moins du tiers, qui pourrait venir de la contribution des 10 plus grands groupes à la hauteur de 0,5 pour cent, qui nous donnait un apport de $5 millions sur les $18 millions.  Alors, c'est ainsi que nous l'avions abordé, de façon extrêmement logique.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17667             Ceci dit, il y a eu d'autres voies qui ont été explorées par nous et nos collègues, par exemple, justement, au niveau des bénéfices, qui est un pourcentage lors des fusions des acquisitions qui pourrait être imposé.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17668             Alors, nous avons plusieurs modèles, mais pour l'ARC du Québec, le fait de demander une contribution aux 10 plus grands groupes semble être le moyen qui est le plus équitable, compte tenu de l'impact qu'ont ces grands groupes là sur le marché publicitaire local de nos membres.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17669             LE PRÉSIDENT : Et pourquoi seulement les 10 principaux exploitants, pourquoi pas toutes les compagnies des radios commerciales?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17670             MME FOREST : Écoutez, ça pourrait être toutes les compagnies.  C'est comme je vous disais, c'est que les 10 plus grands groupes, à la hauteur de 0,5, ça nous permettait d'aller chercher le $5 millions nécessaire.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17671             Mais, bien sûr, on pourrait aussi exiger un pourcentage moindre, mais à l'ensemble des radios commerciales, effectivement.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17672             LE PRÉSIDENT : O.K.  Merci.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17673             Michel, tu as des questions?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17674             CONSEILLER MORIN : Oui.  Je pense que tout le monde reconnaît que la radio privée s'est drôlement améliorée au cours des dernières années.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17675             Mais je regarde ici un rapport du CRTC en date du 2mai 2007, et je note que vos revenus, enfin, les entreprises communautaires qui ont déclaré leurs revenus, vos revenus sont passés de $13millions à $20millions, et surtout, ce qui est important, c'est que votre marge bénéficiaire est passée de 2,3 pour cent à 7,2 pour cent.  Donc, malgré ce que vous dites, il semble que ça fonctionne mieux que ça fonctionnait.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17676             Par rapport à vos revenus, vous avez, donc, des revenus de $20 millions, et ce que je comprends, indépendamment de la formule qui pourrait être éventuellement retenue, c'est que, à ce $20millions, vous voudriez maintenant ajouter $18millions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17677             Je ne vous demande pas de justifier votre $18 millions ou la formule, je pense que mes collègues ont posé plusieurs questions là‑dessus.  Avec $18 millions qui s'ajouterait au $20 millions, qu'est‑ce que vous feriez avec ça pour la diversité au Canada? 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17678             En quoi $18 millions... ça m'apparaît beaucoup.  Est‑ce que je me trompe?  C'est vous qui savez comment vous fonctionnez.  Mais ça m'apparaît une croissance d'un coût énorme.  Peut‑être que ce n'est pas si énorme que ça.  Mais qu'est‑ce que vous feriez pour la diversité?  En quoi vraiment vous ajouteriez beaucoup de choses au niveau de la diversité au Canada, parce que c'est une grosse augmentation?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17679             MME FOREST : Ça peut sembler une grosse augmentation.  Bon, je vais répondre à la première partie de la question.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17680             Le Fonds canadien de la radiophonie communautaire viserait essentiellement le développement de deux programmes, l'un qui serait un programme de développement de programmation locale, et un autre de soutien au développement local.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17681             Ce qu'il faut comprendre, c'est que, du moins au Québec, on peut parler de nos membres, oui, certaines radios sont de plus en plus performantes, certaines radios communautaires. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17682             On n'a qu'à penser, par exemple, à CFIM des Îles‑de‑la‑Madeleine.  C'est la seule radio qui est présente.  Alors, évidemment, elle a un taux d'auditorat qui est très élevé, d'auditeurs qui est très, très élevé.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17683             Ceci dit, la radio qui est à Natashquan ou celle qui est à Blanc‑Sablon, qui n'a pas les moyens d'avoir du personnel à temps plein, c'est souvent une personne qui travaille à mi‑temps, qui est très peu rémunérée.  Cette personne‑là n'a pas les moyens de développer de la programmation locale, n'a pas les moyens de développer des nouveaux contenus.  Elle est là pour assurer une présence dans la communauté, d'avoir une porte et de permettre à la communauté de venir à elle.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17684             Alors, si le besoin semble si énorme, il ne faut pas oublier que la réalité principale des radios communautaires, ce n'est pas d'être en ville, ce n'est pas d'être en zone urbaine, c'est d'être dans des zones éloignées.  Alors, évidemment, ce sont celles‑là dont les besoins sont les plus criants, d'autant qu'elles n'ont pas accès non plus à un grand marché publicitaire.  Natashquan, une fois que le garage du coin a financé, il n'y a pas énormément d'entreprises pour soutenir une telle radio.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17685             Et comme on l'a mentionné dans notre allocution, le soutien que nous avons au Québec au fonctionnement, ça représente 10 pour cent seulement des ressources.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17686             Peut‑être qu'Éric Lefebvre pourrait compléter, avec son expérience de gestionnaire de radio communautaire, un peu plus ce que ça représente.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17687             M. LEFEBVRE : Je pense aussi ce qui est important de souligner, c'est que, à l'heure actuelle, bon, une majorité des gens qui travaillent dans les stations sont des bénévoles. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17688             À l'heure actuelle, à peu près toutes les études montrent, en tout cas au Québec, sur le soutien à l'action bénévole, que le bénévolat n'est pas nécessairement la chose qui est la plus primée chez les jeunes à ce niveau‑là.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17689             Donc, je pense aussi qu'il va falloir, pour attirer les auditeurs, être capable de faire un service, d'être capable d'offrir un service local, dans plusieurs cas, qui soit toujours un petit peu plus crédible. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17690             Souvent, la radiophonie communautaire, malgré qu'on reconnaît toute sa contribution, il y a tout le temps une question de crédibilité, puis pour ça, d'être capable d'aller sur le terrain, il faut avoir des moyens et aussi, beaucoup plus de demande du milieu à l'heure actuelle, que ça vienne des villes ou des municipalités ou des mairies, que ça vienne des comités locaux de développement, que ça vienne des tables de concertation, pour justement que la radio communautaire joue un rôle beaucoup plus actif, de couvrir, d'être présent. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17691             C'est ça qu'on parle de programmation locale, d'être dans toutes ces instances là, que les gens puissent être là pour être capable de jouer un rôle de lien de médiation avec le citoyen, et c'est toutes ces choses là, tous ces besoins là qu'on observe aussi à l'heure actuelle, qu'on n'est pas nécessairement capable de répondre, et je pense que ça vient aussi des besoins du milieu qui nous approchent, d'à peu près tous les milieux.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17692             M. PAQUIN : Peut‑être juste ajouter.  Vous parliez de montant d'argent de $20 millions, bon, qu'est‑ce qu'on ferait avec $18 millions supplémentaires.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17693             Il faut quand même mettre les choses en perspective: $18 millions, 140 stations.  Il y a des stations commerciales là, je pense, qui ont des chiffres d'affaires de plusieurs millions. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17694             Donc, je veux dire, le ratio là, 140 versus $18 millions, ça va donner des ressources minimales, je pense, comme mes collègues l'ont dit, pour assurer un journalisme local.  Ça va assurer une présence dans la communauté.  On va pouvoir se concentrer un peu plus sur notre mandat puis donner encore plus d'information pertinente à la communauté.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17695             Principalement, c'est ça qu'on veut faire, mais aussi, un moment donné, il va falloir faire le virage technologique.  Demain matin là, ce n'est pas vrai que les 140 stations communautaires, même si on semble avoir pris un petit peu plus de santé financière, il reste que nombre de stations, en tout cas dans les régions que moi, je représente...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17696             Une station à Peace River en Alberta, le marché francophone n'est pas suffisant pour maintenir.  Donc, elle vit au crochet d'une association porte‑parole francophone qui paie le salaire en partie de la personne qui est là, puis paie aussi le local, puis paie le secrétariat.  Sinon, on n'aurait pas cette présence francophone là, on n'aurait pas cette radio là qui anime la communauté francophone. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17697             Ça aussi, par rapport à la contribution au développement des langues officielles et de la dualité linguistique, le rôle des radios communautaires est extrêmement important.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17698             Donc, je pense qu'ici, on parle d'un montant qui va assurer un minimum aux stations participantes pour donner justement une meilleure couverture locale et se concentrer sur notre mandat.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17699             CONSEILLER MORIN : Vous avez parlé d'un indice de pertinence.  Si j'ai bien lu, vous demandez un peu au CRTC de développer cet indice‑là.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17700             Compte tenu que vous êtes sur le marché local, que vous écoutez les concurrents privés qui ne livrent plus ou peu, semble‑t‑il, la marchandise en terme d'informations locales, est‑ce que vous ne pourriez pas, vous autres, si davantage de nouvelles ressources vous étaient octroyées, est‑ce que vous ne pourriez pas développer cet indice en concertation avec l'ensemble des stations locales, pour démontrer que vraiment, si, par exemple, on devait augmenter le spectre ou vous garantir du spectre avec une certaine assurance, est‑ce que vous ne pourriez pas localement développer cet indice‑là de manière à ce que, dans d'éventuelles audiences, vous puissiez démontrer que, vraiment, vous jouez votre rôle et que vous pouvez vraiment justifier, au‑delà des concepts théoriques, votre présence au niveau local par rapport au secteur commercial?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17701             MME FOREST : Je répondrais, d'abord, si le CRTC veut financer une telle étude, on va essayer de trouver les ressources pour le faire.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17702             Mais ceci dit, à mon grand étonnement, la notion de pertinence a été reprise par maître Raymond, notamment, d'Astral.  Elle disait même, elle mentionnait dans son allocution l'importance de pouvoir livrer une information locale pertinente.  Alors, je pense que cette notion‑là ou cet indicateur‑là fait son chemin, et pas simplement auprès de la radio communautaire.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17703             Ceci dit, encadrer ce que c'est, ce que ça veut dire, évidemment, je ne suis pas une spécialiste en réglementation, mais il y a quand même certains éléments qu'on peut déjà quand même voir: alors, pertinence pour la localité, degré d'importance, est‑ce qu ça affecte la sécurité publique ou non, est‑ce que ça émane du milieu, est‑ce que c'est une information qui est exclusive à la région ou, au contraire, qui est plus une information qui est régionale ou nationale.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17704             Alors, peut‑être qu'à partir seulement de données comme ça, on pourrait, tranquillement, se rapprocher d'un cadre qui permettrait d'évaluer ce que c'est qu'une information qui est pertinente.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17705             Mais au‑delà de ça, développer un indice, c'est très possible, mais je ne pense pas que ça relève de notre mission à nous que de le développer.  Mais on peut certainement participer à une réflexion, cependant.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17706             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL : D'abord, Monsieur Paquin, j'ai bien entendu votre mise au point tout à l'heure, et moi, là où j'en étais, c'est que vous nous présentez un document qui est supposé être un document commun, et quand on lit vos dépôts individuels dans cette audience‑ci, on a des modes de financement différents pour le fameux fonds qui est supposéêtre un document sur lequel vous vous êtes entendus, vous avez réfléchi, et c'est là où j'en suis.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17707             Quand vous voulez nous présenter un document commun, essayer de vous mettre d'accord sur le mode de financement.  Dans votre dossier à vous, dans votre présentation écrite, on ne parlait pas de la façon d'y arriver.  Dans le dossier de madame Forest, on parle de 0,5 pour cent des revenus.  On s'entend que les revenus, puis les bénéfices, c'est deux paires de manche.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17708             Vous, Monsieur Paquin ‑‑ j'ai pris des notes pendant que vous parliez ‑‑ vous nous avez dit: Oui, oui, 0,5 pour cent des revenus ou 0,5 pour cent des bénéfices.  Ce n'est pas la même chose.  Il faut au moins s'entendre sur des définitions puis des mots. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17709             C'est là où est mon problème.  C'est que vous nous arrivez, vous nous demandez de mettre en oeuvre une façon d'aller chercher des revenus chez les radiodiffuseurs, puis vous ne vous entendez pas sur ce que vous voulez demander.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17710             Vous avez même ajouté, tout à l'heure, 10 pour cent du 40 pour cent restant.  Je figure que ça doit être le 40 pour cent qui n'est pas dévolu à FACTOR puis MUSICACTION, mais ce 40 pour cent restant, il est pris à même la contribution annuelle de base au développement des contenus canadiens.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17711             Puis là, je vais vous référer ‑‑ ça serait bon que vous le lisiez à fond ‑‑ l'Avis public de radiodiffusion CRTC 2006‑158, et vous allez voir que le calcul des contributions commence à apparaître au paragraphe 116.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17712             Au paragraphe 116, on dit ceci, et vous pourrez répondre, un ou l'autre de vous, mais on dit ceci:

                      *Le montant total de la contribution annuelle de base au titre du développement des contenus canadiens de chaque station est le suivant:

                      Les stations dont les revenus totaux de l'année précédente de radiodiffusion sont inférieurs à 625000$ verseront une contribution fixe de 500$.

                      Les stations dont les revenus totaux de l'année précédente de radiodiffusion se situent entre 625000$ et 1250000$ verseront une contribution fixe de 1000$.

                      Les stations dont les revenus totaux de l'année précédente de radiodiffusion sont supérieurs à 1250000$ verseront une contribution de 1000$ à laquelle s'ajoutera 0,5% de la part des revenus totaux de l'année précédente excédant 1250000$.+ (Tel que lu)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17713             À l'article 117, on fait une projection en utilisant les chiffres qu'on avait sous la main à l'époque, soit les chiffres de 2004‑2005, pour dire que sous l'ancien plan, la contribution, avec le 400 $ allant jusqu'à 27000 $ par station, on aurait eu une contribution totale annuelle de 2,83millions$.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17714             Par cette décision‑là, on a fait passer l'estimation, en se basant sur les chiffres 2004‑2005, à 4,10millions$.  On l'a presque doublée.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17715             Aujourd'hui, Madame Forest, vous nous demandez encore 0,5 pour cent des revenus totaux.  On va la doubler une autre fois?  Pensez‑vous que c'est réaliste d'aller, année après année, doubler le montant des contributions?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17716             Je ne sais pas, moi, je vous pose la question.  Ça me semble énorme.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17717             MME FOREST : Je vous entends bien, Madame Noël.  Ceci dit, lorsqu'on regarde également l'augmentation des revenus publicitaires, notamment, des radios privées, 17 pour cent sur les cinq dernières années, je comprends que lorsqu'on regarde le portrait de façon mathématique, ça semble, oui, demander beaucoup, mais il ne faut pas oublier non plus que le secteur communautaire, il existe, il a un rôle à jouer.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17718             Alors, à partir de ce moment‑là, compte tenu que mes collègues canadiens n'ont aucune source de financement public, compte tenu que, de notre côté au Québec, nous avons la pression d'une force de vente de réseaux qui est de plus en plus importante et qui vient rogner dans nos capacités de générer nous‑mêmes des revenus, quelle autre formule serait équitable?  Est‑ce que l'esprit de la loi est vraiment que les trois composantes participent?  Si on coupe le pied aux radios communautaires, qu'est‑ce qui va rester?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17719             Alors, la réflexion que nous avons faite est simple.  La radiophonie publique depuis quelques années n'a plus besoin de revenus publicitaires.  On sait, d'ores et déjà, que cette portion de revenus publicitaires là, ce sont les radiodiffuseurs privés qui l'ont récupérée. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17720             Si on faisait le calcul exact de ça représente combien de montant, si on pouvait avoir accès à cette donnée‑là de façon précise, peut‑être qu'on se rendrait compte que, finalement, 0,5 pour cent, ce n'est qu'une infime partie de ce marché‑là qui a été récupéré par l'autre composante.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17721             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL : Mais, Madame, vous venez de nous dire que les revenus publicitaires avaient augmenté de 17 pour cent en cinq ans, et vous nous demandez une augmentation de 100 pour cent de la contribution annuelle.  Vous ne trouvez pas que c'est un peu disproportionné?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17722             MME FOREST : Écoutez, Madame Noël, vous pouvez trouver ça disproportionné, je n'irai pas jusqu'à vous confronter là‑dessus.  Ceci dit, c'est quand même intéressant de voir que dans le rapport qui vous a été déposé par messieurs Dunbar et Leblanc, à la page 29, il y a quand même un questionnement dans le quatrième paragraphe qui dit:

                      *Un autre objectif qui n'est pas expressément formulé par la politique du Conseil nous semble être celui de protéger les radiodiffuseurs commerciaux de la concurrence des radios communautaires.+ (Tel que lu)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17723             Alors, je vous pose la question: Comment nous donner des moyens, alors?  Est‑ce que c'est vraiment ça votre objectif ou, au contraire, c'est d'avoir une radiophonie canadienne vivante, vitale, pérenne? 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17724             Alors, le moyen que nous avons trouvé, sur lequel nous avons réfléchi, est le fonds.  Maintenant, le calcul n'est pas arrêté.  Ce n'est que des propositions à l'heure actuelle ‑‑ que des propositions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17725             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL : C'est pour ça que je vous demande, est‑ce que ce calcul‑là n'est pas disproportionné, parce que, vous savez, il y a un vieux proverbe qui dit qu'on n'attire pas les mouches avec du vinaigre.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17726             MME FOREST : C'est clair.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17727             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL : Et en vous en allant dans cette direction comme ça, je me demande si vous ne mettez pas à risque votre possibilité d'avoir une collaboration, puis une coopération du secteur commercial. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17728             Je veux dire, on vient de les doubler, puis vous nous demander de les doubler encore.  Un moment donné, il faut être raisonnable dans la façon dont on approche les gens.  C'est tout ce que je veux remettre en jeu.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17729             C'est: Est‑ce que, en allant là où on leur a déjà fait mal l'an passé, selon eux...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17730             MME FOREST : Mm‑hmm.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17731             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL : ...vous ne risquez pas d'avoir une opposition absolument farouche?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17732             MME FOREST : Toute forme de demande...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17733             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL : C'est tout ce que je vous dis.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17734             MME FOREST : Oui.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17735             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL : Je vous souligne deux choses. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17736             Premièrement, avant de venir nous voir, arrangez‑vous pour vous entendre, puis savoir exactement ce que vous voulez avoir.  Je comprends que vous voulez $18 millions.  Ça, c'est facile. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17737             Mais essayez de vous entendre sur une méthodologie pour aller le chercher, parce que vous nous présentez un projet qui est soi‑disant un projet commun.  Je sais que ce n'est pas toujours facile de vous rejoindre, mais entendez‑vous sur une méthodologie, un plan A, un plan B, et puis essayez d'aller chercher un support chez la radio commerciale, parce que si vous arrivez avec un plan comme ça, je veux dire, vous allez avoir un tollé de protestations de leur part.  Je veux dire, quand on double la contribution...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17738             MME FOREST : Nous rencontrons monsieur Parisien la semaine prochaine.  Ceci dit, on a toujours eu une constante: c'était d'établir la part de contribution demandée à la radio commerciale à $5millions. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17739             Et, d'ailleurs, ça vous a été présenté au mois de mai par mes collègues lors de la présentation de la radiophonie communautaire.  Monsieur Finckenstein était là, monsieur le Président.  Alors, on n'a jamais eu de cachette sur le montant qui était demandé. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17740             La mathématique n'est peut‑être pas encore tout à fait élaborée, mais il ne faudrait certainement pas que vous pensiez qu'il n'y a pas de concertation entre les trois associations.  Ce serait vraiment une erreur de perception, parce qu'on communique vraiment très bien et qu'on s'est bien entendu sur les besoins que l'on voulait voir combler par la radio commerciale.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17741             Ceci dit, effectivement, nous avons différents modèles.  Il n'y a pas un seul modèle encore sur lequel nous nous sommes entendus avant de pouvoir rencontrer Astral, demande qui a été faite depuis plusieurs mois.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17742             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL : Je vous remercie.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17743             LE PRÉSIDENT : Michel, tu as une dernière question?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17744             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Merci.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17745             Monsieur Paquin, en premier. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17746             Je vous ai entendu dire, en réponse à une question de monsieur Morin que, à votre connaissance, évidemment, FACTOR ne s'est pas présenté devant nous, ni MUSICACTION, parce que, effectivement, ce sont des sociétés qui doivent être plutôt neutres, donc, c'est leurs adhérents qui se présentent devant nous.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17747             Mais quand je lis le mémoire que CIRPA nous a déposé, et, d'ailleurs, ils ont comparu dans la journée d'hier, au paragraphe 22, ils ont bel et bien écrit:

                      "There is a need for increased funding for FACTOR with the goal of finding ways to develop and expand programs." (Tel que lu)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17748             Puis ça se poursuit.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17749             Donc, contrairement à ce que vous avez dit, les producteurs de musique ne partagent certainement pas votre avis, puisque eux‑mêmes viennent nous voir, puis nous disent que malgré le fait qu'on a changé les règles, qu'on a augmenté de manière substantielle, comme madame Noël l'a mentionné en lisant la décision du Conseil, CIRPA, qui est la plus grande association de producteurs indépendants au Canada, dit: Ce n'est pas encore assez d'argent.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17750             Évidemment, je comprends que tout le monde a besoin toujours de plus d'argent, et ça, ça m'amène à regarder les documents que vous avez déposés en annexe, Madame Forest, qui est votre document que je présume qui est présenté au client quand vous sollicitez du placement publicitaire.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17751             Notamment, je vois que vous avez cité... et monsieur Paquin aussi a parlé d'un 14 pour cent.  Vous, dans votre texte, vous avez parlé d'un 13,7 pour cent d'auditoire là. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17752             Je présume que c'était le même, ou est‑ce que c'était une autre base de données, Monsieur Paquin?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17753             M. PAQUIN : Par rapport au...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17754             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Bien, c'est parce que vous avez dit que la radio communautaire avait une part d'écoute d'à peu près 14 pour cent.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17755             M. PAQUIN : Je n'ai pas dit que la radio communautaire avait une part d'écoute de 14 pour cent.  Je ne me rappelle pas d'avoir mentionné ça aujourd'hui. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17756             Cependant, ce qu'on sait, nous, pour les régions qu'on peut sonder, parce qu'on sait que BBM, ce n'est pas très efficace là dans des situations minoritaires francophones, mais dans les régions, principalement au Nouveau‑Brunswick, on a des cotes d'écoute d'au‑delà de 40, 50 et 60, et même 70 pour cent de cotes d'écoute, parce que, dans certains cas, on peut sonder ce marché‑là. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17757             Dans plusieurs des cas, on sait, par exemple, à Shéticamp, dans un village de 3500 habitants, il y a peu près 3400 personnes qui écoutent la radio. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17758             Il est évident qu'on a une action marquée, on a une écoute importante, et cette écoute‑là, on va la chercher avec les bénévoles, avec les équipes en place, avec les petits moyens.  On doit faire beaucoup de gymnastique pour essayer de boucler les budgets puis offrir les services.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17759             Ce qu'on vous dit, c'est que, oui, pour répondre aussi à madame Noël et à vos inquiétudes, la méthodologie n'est pas arrêtée. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17760             Ce que je souhaiterais, c'est qu'on puisse s'asseoir, avec un petit comité, avec le CRTC et avec l'entreprise privée...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17761             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Je pense que monsieur le Président vous a dit que le CRTC n'était... ce n'était pas le rôle du CRTC.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17762             Moi, je vous dirais que c'est le rôle de Patrimoine Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17763             M. PAQUIN : Bien, écoutez, on a identifié les besoins.  Maintenant, la méthode peut varier, et la méthode, je crois que vous en faites partie prenante, autant du secteur privé.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17764             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Bien, je veux dire, quand votre projet sera arrivé à maturité, que ce sera un projet complet, évidemment, c'est devant nous que vous aurez à le présenter si vous voulez que des tierces parties contribuent au financement de votre fonds.  Mais le CRTC ne peut pas être une partie au développement à la fois conceptuel, puis à la fois structurel.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17765             M. PAQUIN : Bien, écoutez, on va s'engager à rencontrer les gens du CAB pour... d'ailleurs, on va participer à leur congrès cet automne.  On va s'engager à avoir une discussion avec eux sur la vision qu'eux pourraient avoir de leur contribution par rapport à leurs moyens, par rapport aux leviers qu'ils ont par rapport à leur contribution actuelle ou future.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17766             Bref, c'est évident que vous allez être saisi de ça.  Mais je veux dire...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17767             CONSEILLER ARPIN : D'ailleurs, dans la journée de lundi, si vous avez été présent ou si vous avez suivi à la télévision, la question a été posée...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17768             M. PAQUIN: Oui.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17769             CONSEILLER ARPIN: ...aux représentants de l'ACR.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17770             M. PAQUIN: Tout à fait!

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17771             Mais écoutez, on reste ouvert à la discussion.  Maintenant, si vous voulez que la prochaine fois on vous arrive avec un modèle, une méthode très articulée, qui a été concertée avec l'entreprise privée, on n'a pas de problème, on va le faire.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17772             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Ça sera d'autant plus facile...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17773             M. PAQUIN : Bien, absolument!

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17774             CONSEILLER ARPIN : ...parce que ça sera le consensus.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17775             M. PAQUIN : Bien, consensus.  Ça va dépendre comment ouvert l'entreprise...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17776             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Bien, c'est ce que vous avez dit, si on le développe avec le secteur privé...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17777             M. PAQUIN : Oui.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17778             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Je présume que si vous le développez avec le secteur privé, vous ne le développerez pas contre le secteur privé, à ce moment‑là, si vous le développez avec eux.  Donc, ça sera consensuel, ça sera plus facile.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17779             M. PAQUIN: C'est souhaitable.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17780             MME FOREST: Du moins concerté.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17781             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Bien là, c'est...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17782             MME FOREST : Pour répondre à votre question sur les pourcentages tout à l'heure, c'est moi, effectivement, qui les a mentionnés.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17783             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Oui.  Bien dans votre texte, vous l'avez, mais...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17784             MME FOREST : Oui.  C'est bien ça.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17785             CONSEILLER ARPIN : De mémoire, je pense que monsieur Paquin, dans une de ses envolées, nous a laissé tomber un 14 pour cent...

‑‑‑ Rires / Laughter

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17786             CONSEILLER ARPIN : ...puis je pense que c'est le même 14, il l'a arrondi.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17787             MME FOREST : J'ai beaucoup d'influence sur monsieur Paquin.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17788             CONSEILLER ARPIN : C'est ça.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17789             Écoutez, en fait, je vois que, avec une part de marché quand même de 13,7 pour cent de l'écoute, vous avez aussi dit que votre part des revenus était de 5 pour cent.  Cependant, dans les documents que vous nous avez aussi laissés, vous avez ici une petite phrase qui dit:

                      *La concentration récente de la propriété des médias et l'absorption des radios locales par les grands réseaux ont provoqué un boom dans l'univers de la radio communautaire.+

                      Tel que lu)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17790             Premièrement, comment est‑ce que ça se fait que vous n'êtes pas capable de monnayer votre boom?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17791             MME FOREST : Je vais vous expliquer.  Le boom mentionné dans le document ‑‑ ça, c'est un document qui a été fait en 2003, nous sommes en 2007 ‑‑ ce n'était pas un boom financier dont il était mention, c'était un boom en terme d'explosion de demandes de radios communautaires qui voulaient se créer.  Alors, c'est beaucoup plus ça dont il était mention.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17792             Par ailleurs, vous savez, le 13,7pour cent, c'est la situation de stations de radio urbaines.  Le 40 pour cent, c'est en région, et, par ailleurs, dans certains endroits, on parle de 90pour cent d'auditoire là.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17793             Alors, le boom, c'était vraiment le nombre de demandes que nous avons reçues pour se constituer en radios communautaires, parce qu'il y a un besoin dans nos régions au Québec d'avoir une information locale, et au fil des ans, bien, la grogne a monté et, effectivement, aujourd'hui, on pourrait modifier nos données.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17794             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Je comprends très bien qu'il pouvait avoir 90 pour cent de l'auditoire des Îles‑de‑la‑Madeleine, puisque c'est la seule station des Îles, et que probablement vous avez 100pour cent des dollars disponibles des commerçants, mais que, à la fin de l'année, ça ne représente quand même pas des fortunes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17795             Mais avec 13,7 pour cent de l'auditoire en milieux urbains ‑‑ on va s'en tenir aux milieux urbains ‑‑ c'est quand même une part de marché assez importante et très significative. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17796             D'ailleurs, si je prends le marché de Montréal, les meilleures stations peuvent avoir 14, 15 parts de marché.  En général, ils ont 7, 8, 9 parts de marché.  Certaines en ont 2, 3 parts de marché et réussissent à monnayer leurs 2, 3 parts de marché. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17797             Et vous, avec 13,7 parts de marché, comment ça se fait que vous n'allez chercher que 5 pour cent des dollars publicitaires disponibles?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17798             MME FOREST : Je vais demander à monsieur Lefebvre de vous répondre.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17799             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Oui.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17800             M. LEFEBVRE : Bien, je pense que, en fait, il y a peut‑être juste... c'est 13,7 pour cent de gens qui écoutent la radio communautaire.  Il faudrait différencier ça de la part de marché.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17801             Évidemment, les radios communautaires en milieu urbain n'ont pas 13,7 pour cent des parts de marché.  On pense plus à quelque chose qui serait autour de 1 ou 2 pour cent de parts de marché, globalement.  Donc, 13,7 pour cent des gens disent écouter la radio, mais en terme d'heures, qui sont les parts de marché, on est plus autour de 1 ou 2 pour cent à ce niveau‑là.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17802             Je pense que vous avez parfaitement raison quand vous dites que les radios communautaires ont de la misère à aller chercher leur plein potentiel de ventes publicitaires.  Ça, en effet, il y a plusieurs raisons pour ça. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17803             Je peux vous dire que chez nous à CIBL, c'est beaucoup la même chose.  À toutes les trois semaines, il y a un employé qui se fait embaucher par le milieu public ou le milieu privé.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17804             Donc, on n'est pas juste... on fait un gros travail au niveau local, mais on se trouve aussi à être une pépinière de talent dans tous les milieux, que ça soit autant en animation ou que ça soit dans le milieu des ventes ou quoi que ce soit.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17805             Donc, c'est sûr qu'il y a une grosse difficulté à être capable d'avoir un personnel stable, avec une rémunération concurrentielle qui permet de garder les gens, et, donc, d'être capable de capitaliser sur un historique.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17806             L'autre chose aussi, c'est sûr que, bon, à l'heure actuelle, puisque les grands groupes médias sont capables de proposer, surtout dans les milieux urbains, de placer 100 pour cent du budget publicitaire d'un client parce qu'ils sont capables de proposer de l'affichage, le journal, la radio, la télé, en même temps, c'est sûr que ça désavantage une radio communautaire, qui ne peut jamais ou difficilement se mettre à plusieurs pour être capable d'être capable de proposer aux marchands publicitaires.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17807             Ça fait que je pense qu'il y a ces raisons‑là qui font que c'est beaucoup plus difficile pour les radios communautaires de capitaliser sur leur part d'auditoire.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17808             CONSEILLER ARPIN : À ma connaissance, au Québec, il n'y a aucun groupe de radiodiffusion qui a des journaux.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17809             M. LEFEBVRE : Non.  Je ne peux pas vous dire exactement combien il y en a, mais ils sont capables de placer dans plusieurs médias à l'heure actuelle, ce qui permet d'être capable de concurrencer sur plusieurs stations dans plusieurs régions ou à plusieurs niveaux.  Donc, ils sont capables de le faire.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17810             Ça fait que, évidemment, c'est sûr que pour nous autres, comme vous le savez, bon, ça marche beaucoup par coût par personne, donc, vous prenez les trois, quatre meilleures stations dans un marché, puis habituellement, vous êtes capable d'aller chercher... ce que les plus gros acheteurs sont capables de faire là.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17811             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Je vous remercie pour votre réponse.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17812             LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci beaucoup.  Ce sont toutes nos questions.  Merci pour votre présentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17813             Madame Boulet, à quelle heure est‑ce qu'on...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17814             LA SECRÉTAIRE : Monsieur le Président, on reprendra à...  Il est présentement une heure moins 20.  Alors, je suggère deux heures moins quart, 1 h 45.  Merci.

‑‑‑ Suspension à 1240 / Recessed at 1240

‑‑‑ Resumed at 1349 / Reprise à 1349

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17815             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Boulet, do you want to introduce our guests?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17816             THE SECRETARY:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  The next intervener is the Association for Tele‑Education in Canada and the Saskatchewan Communications Network. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17817             I believe Mr. Ken Alecxe will be introducing the panel and after which you will have ten minutes for your presentation.  Please go ahead.

INTERVENTION

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17818             MR. ALEXCE:  Good afternoon.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17819             My name is Ken Alexce and I'm Chair of ATEC (Association for Tele‑Education in Canada which represents Canada's Provincial Education Broadcasters, TéléQuébec, TVO and TFO from Ontario, SCN from Saskatchewan, Access from Alberta and the Knowledge Network from British Columbia.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17820             With me today on my left is Lisa de Wilde, CEO of TVO and vice‑chair of ATEC.  On her left is Michèle Fortin, president of TéléQuébec and ATEC's representative on the Canadian Television Funds and board of directors.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17821             I'm also the president of SCN and with me is Richard Gustin on my right, SCN's director of Programming and also a member of ATEC's Administrative Council.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17822             That is our group.  I'll now give my presentation.  All three of us will be making the presentation here today.  It will be very brief.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17823             We appear today on behalf of the six member organizations of ATEC to speak to this very important proceeding and to remind the Commission of the unique and important role that Canada's educational broadcasters play in addressing issues surrounding diversity of voices and access to the Canadian broadcast system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17824             All these hearings are looking at the impact of commercial media enterprises and their consolidation in Canada.  You must also bear in mind the goals set out in the Broadcasting Act that the Act provides for a variety of services and vehicles to achieve these goals.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17825             We also realize that this is the last day of a long week of hearings and so, the SCN presentation will be subsumed under the ATEC presentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17826             I'll begin by providing some brief introductory comments, Lisa de Wilde will follow with a short presentation on the unique contribution ATEC members make to the Canadian broadcasting system.  Michel Fortin will then speak to the importance of access to both carriage and resources.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17827             We would like to start up by pointing out that diversity means different players playing different roles and serving different audience needs.  This also means serving objectives which do not always translate into mass audience numbers and maximising corporate revenues.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17828             Indeed, ATEC itself is a good example of regional diversity as within ATEC there are differences in structure mandates and needs and the jurisdictions we represent.  However, there are some basic issues on which we strongly agree and wish to bring to the attention of the Commission.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17829             The first of these is to urge the Commission to keep in mind the needs of Canada's Provincial Education Broadcasters when considering ways to balance issues around, access to the system and diversity of voices against the business and economic interest of the large corporate media groups.  I shouldn't say perhaps not against so much as in concert with.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17830             We understand your keen interest in balancing commercial interest with the need to preserve and stimulate Canadian content.  We must also emphasize that the ATEC contribution to cultural diversity is no less important.  ATEC members serve significant audiences in our service areas, make important contributions to the health and growth of Canada's independent production industry and provide opportunities for a wide range of diverse voices to gain access to the Canadian broadcasting system. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17831             Lisa.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17832             MS DE WILDE:  Thanks, Ken.  The ATEC members are the designated provincial education broadcasting authorities and it's by virtue of that that they hold the CRTC licences. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17833             Educational broadcasters play a distinct role in the Canadian Broadcasting system providing viewers with programming and services that are not delivered by other broadcasting services in Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17834             The role of ATEC members is recognized in the Broadcasting Act, particularly in Section 31(i) and 31(j).  Our six services each contribute to diversity in the Canadian broadcasting system and specifically to a plurality of voices.  I have five points here.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17835             Each network is inherently regional in nature since we each start as a provinces designated educational broadcasting service and in the case of Ontario there are, of course, two designated services: one in English and one in French.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17836             Given those regional bases, reflecting the regional perspective really becomes a defining feature of our programming schedules.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17837             Secondly, each of our services is fundamentally educational in nature and our schedules are characterized by strong educational content, in particular for children.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17838             Whether through current affairs, magazine shows or documentaries, each network schedule offers information analysis concerning its home province, the country and the world from a Canadian perspective.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17839             This content is characterized by its depths and its braveness.  To quote Steve Faken who is the host of TVO's program "The Agenda", "we have the time to go deep, we are not in a hurry".

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17840             The same is true for other programs, including TFO's Panorama, SCN's series Long Shadows and to the Quebec's Bazel Point TV.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17841             Finally, each of the ATEC members has strong working relationships with the independent producers across the country.  Collectively, our contribution is significant, particularly when one compares it with our means.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17842             ATEC members have over 11 million million viewers each week and ATEC members invest tens of millions of dollars annually in programming which triggers over 100 million dollars of Canadian independent production activity annually.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17843             Michèle.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17844             MME FORTIN:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17845             Comme mes collègues vous l'ont démontré, les télévisions éducatives contribuent de façon significative à la diversité du système parce qu'elles mettent en onde des émissions qui vont dans des besoins spécifiques des publics canadiens.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17846             Par définition, ces émissions ne s'adressent pas au plus grand nombre et ne visent pas prioritairement le plus grand succès commercial.  C'est en ce sens qu'elles répondent chacune à leur manière aux besoins souvent négligés par les télévisions commerciales, priorité aux enfants, reflets régionaux, émissions de connaissances et de réflexions, et caetera.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17847             Pour remplir ce rôle de façon adéquate, deux conditions sont essentielles :  il faut que ces émissions puissent être vues par des téléspectateurs auxquels elles s'adressent.  Aucune d'entre nous ne possède d'entreprise de distribution ou ne fait partie de tel groupe.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17848             Nous sommes donc à la merci de ces entreprises intégrées qui possèdent aussi des entreprises de programmation, sans avoir de véritables pouvoirs économiques pour forcer une négociation équitable. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17849             Il est donc important pour nous que soit garantie la distribution de nos signaux dans nos provinces respectives et que des règles prévalent pour faciliter la distribution de notre signal ailleurs au Canada pour celles d'entre nous qui le désirent, en priorité sur les chaînes étrangères disponibles.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17850             La deuxième condition doit assurer une véritable diversité de l'offre, réside dans les fonds de production et, en particulier, le Fonds canadien de télévision. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17851             Miser uniquement sur les critères reliés à l'auditoire amènera une disparition des émissions qui s'adressent à des besoins plus particuliers, conduira à une uniformisation des formats et des genres et à une réduction de la diversité.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17852             Si le Fonds canadien de télévision devait s'orienter dans cette direction, nous croyons que des mesures spéciales devraient être prises en place pour protéger les émissions et les gens sous‑représentés et, plus particulièrement, pour donner aux télévisions éducatives les moyens de remplir leur mandat.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17853             Le Canada et le Québec se sont faits les champions de la diversité culturelle auprès de l'Unesco et dans le monde.  Il serait dommage qu'en négligeant de prendre des mesures appropriées nous ne puissions réaliser cet objectif dans notre propre pays.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17854             Merci beaucoup.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17855             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  I noticed, obviously, that there isn't a provincial broadcaster in every province.  Manitoba is clearly missing and so are the Atlantic Provinces. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17856             Do you see it as part of your mandate to the extent that you can't, once SCN to also care for Manitoba and bring to Manitoba that element of the broadcasting spectrum that commercial keeper people do not bring and to put you to clearly fill in Saskatchewan?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17857             MR. ALEXCE:  We are in Manitoba.  We do pay for rights to broadcast in Manitoba and we are there as a discretionary channel with MTS.  So, some of us do broadcast outside of our provinces as discretionary channels and there are fees attached to that sometimes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17858             We do certainly see a need in the rest of Canada for public education broadcasting, certainly when it comes to working with independent film producers.  They come from all across Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17859             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But do you always have to have a Saskatchewan angle or could you, for instance, do a show about Shop Shows, and that would be still within your mandate?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17860             MR. ALEXCE:  We certainly could and do.  We participate as a second window in many such shows.  Richard can probably speak to a few of those if you want some examples.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17861             But certainly in addition to the number of first windows we do on Saskatchewan, we do participate with other broadcasters in shows we believe that will be of educational value to Saskatchewan viewers as well as other viewers in Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17862             Richard, did you want to speak to that?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17863             MR. GUSTIN:  Yes.  Particularly in the area, there are certain areas such as working with aboriginal producers, for example, because the aboriginal population of the Prairies is not geographic specific.  The Cri population of Manitoba does not see themselves radically different from the Cri population of Saskatchewan for example.  And so, we have made considerable efforts in that area.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17864             We also define ourselves as a regional broadcaster and see that a lot of areas of interest of the regional do not stop at the provincial border.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17865             As well, we have made efforts in Manitoba, particularly because of the lack of an educational broadcaster there, speaking to the needs of that population.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17866             LE PRÉSIDENT:  La version française en Ontario, TVA, n'est‑ce pas?  TFO.  Je m'excuse, TFO.  Et pour Québec, est‑ce que vous voyez ça?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17867             Mme FORTIN:  Nous sommes déjà diffusés au Nouveau‑Brunswick.  Nous sommes diffusés par satellite en général sur ExpressVu à travers le Canada, dans les boucliers francophones, et nous avons un auditoire important ailleurs au Canada surtout pour nos émissions pour enfants.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17868             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Et vous voyez ça comme partie de votre mandat d'avoir des émissions pour les francophones hors du Québec aussi?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17869             Mme FORTIN:  Je dirais que ce n'est pas l'essentiel de notre mandat.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17870             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Non.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17871             Mme FORTIN:  mais nous collaborons ensemble, je veux dire, pour élargir le service à la francophonie canadienne. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17872             Nous siégeons aussi sur TV5, Québec Canada Monde, qui a une contribution à la francophonie canadienne dans toutes les régions du Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17873             LE PRÉSIDENT:  O.K.  Merci.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17874             Mme DE WILDE:  Et, moi, je peux confirmer que ça c'est vraiment... ça fait partie aussi du mandat de TFO, la distribution à travers le Canada, pour desservir les minorités francophones.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17875             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Ron, do you have some questions?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17876             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Chair, I have a couple.  Any or all of you can answer these questions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17877             Has the industry consolidation of private sector had an impact on you as a public broadcaster and if so, how?  How has consolidation affected you?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17878             Ms DE WILDE:  I think that to the extent it's had an impact in the case of TVO, it would have led us to focus more clearly on what makes us unique in the market and to cleave more closely to our educational mandate.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17879             So, you know, our strategic reflection over the last couple of years has really been to define, you know, more and more clearly how we bring a unique contribution to the market in which we work. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17880             And so, I don't view it as ‑‑ well, it's a reality and so, I think what it does is it has actually made us clearer about being unique in the marketplace and, you know, perhaps focusing on more types of content that others in the private sector might not find to their commercial interest.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17881             And I think ultimately that's why we are there.  We are there to do things, whether it's documentaries or current affairs or educational content for kids, that there may not be a commercial rationale to do.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17882             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Ms de Wilde.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17883             MR. ALEXCE:  If I can also speak to that, Commissioner Williams.  It seems to me that we've noted certainly that there are fewer players in the marketplace.  So, a lot of our windows are second windows, especially for programming that comes outside of Saskatchewan.  We provide more first windows inside Saskatchewan where there is regional content.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17884             I think a large part of our argument is that regional diversity is any essence of what we provide through out regional programming, so regional programming for us means Saskatchewan.  And there are fewer interests in the commercial broadcasters for that type of programming. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17885             So, we do support a niche of the marketplace that otherwise might not even be there.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17886             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.  Madam Fortin, in its presentation earlier this week, CBC said it provides a counter‑balance to the private sector in terms of providing a diversity of voices. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17887             Do you see the educational services as having a similar role?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17888             Mme FORTIN:  Probably not to the same extent and in the same way because the CBC has such a number of channels, youth resources and presence everywhere in Canada.  Their distribution is guaranteed and, you know, that's their role to do this.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17889             On the other hand, they are more competitive with the private sector than we are.  We are more niche oriented, we are a different type of public television.  And in that sense, there are a lot of things that we do. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17890             For instance, we do 43 per cent of our schedule in children programming.  We put children programming in back‑to‑home you know slight, which the CBC doesn't do.  So, in a way, we are both useful in a different aspect. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17891             They are strong in information, they do a lot of drama.  I think we are probably stronger on children and on, you know, different type of programs that would not attract the level of audience that they expect, but that still, you know, service a lot of people.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17892             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Thank you.  That concludes my question.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17893             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Michel?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17894             CONSEILLÈRE MORIN:  Madame Fortin, vous faites allusion dans votre mémoire à des mesures spéciales au niveau du Fonds canadien de la télévision.  J'aimerais que vous précisiez simplement votre idée.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17895             À quel genre de mesure spéciale pensez‑vous qui pourrait contribuer à garantir, si je vous comprends bien, la diversité?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17896             Mme FORTIN:  En fait, nous sommes, toutes les télévisions éducatives, en réflexion présentement sur cette question, de même que le Fonds canadien de télévision. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17897             Si le Fonds canadien de télévision devait prendre une orientation où les auditoires sont nettement prioritaires, où on cherche des émissions uniquement populaires et à haute rentabilité, tout en protégeant Radio‑Canada qui joue des deux côtés, là, de la chaloupe, peut‑être que nous devrions soit avoir un statut protégé ou à être considéré aussi comme une initiative spéciale, avoir des enveloppes réservées, je veux dire, une façon particulière de répondre aux besoins des émissions que nous présentons à la population.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17898             On n'a pas encore une position de groupe définitive.  Je siège, moi, sur le Conseil du Fonds canadien.  Je regarde où ça s'en va et il se peut que pour permettre à tous les autres joueurs, je veux dire, d'aller dans une direction qui va contre nos intérêts, notre mandat et la diversité des programmes, nous devions avoir des mesures particulières ou un statut particulier à l'intérieur de ce fonds‑là.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17899             Mais les décisions ne sont pas prises.  On est vraiment au niveau de la discussion maintenant.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17900             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Andrée?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17901             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Alors, je voudrais vous parler de l'accès et je m'adresse à vous deux, mesdames Fortin et de Wilde, et vous prendrez la parole dans l'ordre que vous choisirez.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17902             Madame Fortin, vous avez mentionné que le problème était d'avoir...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17903             Avant ça, je voudrais juste m'assurer, vérifier quelque chose avec vous.  Vous êtes diffusés au Nouveau‑Brunswick et TFO et TéléQuébec. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17904             Mme FORTIN:  Mais pas partout.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17905             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Est‑ce que c'est en vertu... pardon?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17906             Mme FORTIN:  Mais pas partout.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17907             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Mais pas partout.  Est‑ce que c'est en vertu d'entente avec le gouvernement du Nouveau‑Brunswick...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17908             Mme FORTIN:  Non.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17909             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  ... ou c'est seulement des ententes avec l'entreprise de distribution locale?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17910             Mme FORTIN:  Oui, oui.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17911             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Alors, dans votre cas, c'est seulement des ententes avec de la distribution locale?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17912             Mme FORTIN:  Oui.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17913             Mme DE WILDE:  Et c'est la même chose.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17914             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  C'est la même chose?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17915             Mme DE WILDE:  Oui.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17916             Mme FORTIN:  Le gouvernement n'intervient pas là‑dedans.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17917             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  O.K.  Alors, vous êtes probablement dans le nord du Nouveau‑Brunswick, là où il y a les plus grandes populations, les concentrations de populations francophones.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17918             Mme FORTIN:  C'est ça.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17919             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Quand vous nous parlez d'une garantie de distribution de nos signaux dans nos provinces respectives, c'est assez clair, et que des règles prévalent pour faciliter la distribution de notre signal ailleurs au Canada, est‑ce que vous pourriez marcher un peu là‑dessus?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17920             Mme FORTIN:  Je pense que vous avez eu aussi le même genre d'argument puis on va sûrement en discuter dans une autre audience.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17921             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Oui, absolument.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17922             Mme FORTIN:  Avec les autres chaînes indépendantes, ce que j'appelle, moi, les *chaînes orphelines+.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17923             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Mais je n'y serai plus, alors pour mon bénéfice?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17924             Mme FORTIN:  Quel dommage!  C'est que, je veux dire, c'est évident que de notre point de vue, puis particulièrement en tant que francophones, il est important d'offrir la gamme la plus large de services aux francophones, surtout dans les provinces où il n'y a pas de télévision francophone.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17925             C'est évident, par ailleurs, que pour un distributeur de signaux, c'est probablement plus intéressant de mettre en onde, je ne sais pas, moi, Fashion TV Show for teenagers qu'une télévision éducative pour les francophones. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17926             Et c'est cette espèce de... les règles d'assemblages permettaient un certain avantage, surtout quand il était gratuit ou peu, où les tarifs étaient peu élevés, mais on pense que les chaînes canadiennes devraient avoir une priorité dans la distribution sur les chaînes étrangères, particulièrement américaines, même dans les provinces de langue anglaise où il y a une population francophone, je veux dire.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17927             Sinon, puis je vais aller plus loin et je vais dire... puis quand je vais dans un hôtel de Toronto, non seulement je n'ai pas mes journaux en français, mais j'ai Radio‑Canada en français, mais je n'ai pas TéléQuébec, je n'ai pas RDI, mais j'ai toutes les chaînes américaines. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17928             Je veux dire, je trouve que dans un pays comme le nôtre, je veux dire, ce n'est pas acceptable.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17929             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Madame De Wilde?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17930             Mme DE WILDE:  Je pense que je n'ai pas vraiment d'autres précisions à apporter.  Je partage les points de vue de Michèle.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17931             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Et, madame Fortin, votre signal est distribué sur ExpressVu.  Dans les provinces de l'ouest, est‑ce qu'il est distribué autrement que sur ExpressVu ou si c'est au‑delà de la rivière des Outaouais.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17932             Mme FORTIN:  Il est distribué sur Star Choice aussi, mais il est distribué sur ExpressVu sur le bouquet francophone. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17933             Ça veut dire qu'au Québec, si vous êtes une famille, par exemple, je vais dire, qui achète ExpressVu, mais avec un bouquet anglophone, ma fille n'a pas accès à TéléQuébec parce que son conjoint est anglophone et qu'il a choisi ExpressVu anglophone.  Ce n'est pas possible; pas que ma fille soit avec un anglophone, mais qu'elle ne puisse pas avoir accès à la télévision de sa mère.

‑‑‑ Rires

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17934             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Madame De Wilde, avez‑vous quelque chose à ajouter?  Est‑ce que vous êtes distribués sur les réseaux de câblodistribution ailleurs qu'au Québec et au Nouveau‑Brunswick, madame Fortin?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17935             Mme FORTIN:  Je vais être franche avec vous, je pourrais vous répondre, je ne le sais pas par coeur; probablement pas.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17936             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Au‑delà de l'Ontario, plus à l'ouest?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17937             Mme FORTIN:  Je ne pense pas.  Non, je ne pense pas.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17938             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Non.  Merci.  Madame De Wilde?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17939             Mme DE WILDE:  TFO est distribué au Nouveau‑Brunswick, au Québec sur un bouquet numérique et au Manitoba.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17940             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Merci beaucoup.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17941             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Stuart, any questions?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17942             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Just a quick follow‑up to that line of questioning, Ms De Wilde.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17943             The TFO decision from some years ago with which I took some umbrage, has that situation changed with carriage in Quebec on cable companies in Quebec?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17944             MS DE WILDE:  TFO is carried on a digital tear in Quebec on the large cable systems, Videotron, and in addition on some of the smaller ones throughout the province.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17945             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So, do you think that solved the problem, considering the way we are going or is the problem still that not enough people can get access to?  I have no idea what that means in terms of percentages of subscribers.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17946             MS DE WILDE:  I don't have those numbers at my finger tips either, but I think, you know, the status quo in Quebec is actually okay.  I mean, it could always be better.  There are, I'm sure, additional systems, but you know, it's not the problem that it was.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17947             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And the compensation is reasonable?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17948             MS DE WILDE:  Well, I should leave that to Claudette to comment on.  The deal is signed.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17949             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Everyone always leaves it to someone.  Alright.  Those are my questions.  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17950             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, thank you very much.  We obviously recognize the important role that you play for diversity of voices.  Your issues, I think, will be canvassed very much in January when we talk with BDU and as you've probably heard, I inadvertently announced that we're going to have a selected hearing on the CTF later on and so those issues, especially that you raised, madam Fortin, will surely be raised there.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17951             MS FORTIN:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17952             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, thank you very much for your presentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17953             Mme FORTIN:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17954             MR. ALEXCE:  Thank you.  Merci.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17955             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madame Boulet, who is next?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17956             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17957             I would now invite the next two appearing interveners, TimeScape Productions and St. Andrews Community Channel Inc. to come forward.

‑‑‑ Pause

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17958             THE SECRETARY:  We will begin with the presentation of TimeScape Productions as they have agreed to come first and then, we will continue with St. Andrews Community. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17959             I now invite Ms Catherine Edwards to begin her presentation.  Thank you.

INTERVENTION

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17960             MS EDWARDS:  Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak today.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17961             By way of identification, until 1997 I worked for Shaw's community television channel in Calgary.  At that time it was a model of community access and local origination.  Fewer than ten staff and 400 volunteers produced more than 35 hours of local programming per week, in every genre, including children's, sports, news, alternative music, and interactive call‑in programs that debated everything from the stock market to politics directly with MPs.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17962             We also gave exposure to drama produced by independent filmmakers.  It was typical of community TV channels of its time.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17963             In 1997, as a response to CRTC Policy 1997‑25, Shaw axed all of its community access production and training, and hired professionals to produce one hour of local news per day, and this continues to this day.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17964             Since 2000, as a response, I have been visiting, researching and documenting community access television around the world, in an effort to find out what is the potential of this medium, what are the most effective operational and funding models, and what ought to be its relationship to other forms of television and media.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17965             I offer the following comments from this experience.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17966             While the overt focus of this hearing and specific questions raised deal with the concentration of media ownership in the private sector, the framework for the discussion draws on the Broadcasting Act and its expectation that the system as a whole should provide for a diversity of voices to be heard.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17967             My view is that the genius of the Broadcasting Act lies in the balancing of the three tiers ‑‑ public, private and community ‑‑ and on the understanding that programs produced with these different funding models offer the best chance for a diversity of voices, topics and genres.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17968             In a healthy system, these sectors would be independent and robust, each in its own sphere, and serve as a check and balance against programming produced by the others.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17969             The Canadian reality, in my opinion, is that all three tiers are under‑performing.  The CBC has never been truly public, since shortfalls in government funding force it to rely heavily on advertising.  The private system, as with any market, needs rules of engagement to ensure smooth working and adequate competition.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17970             What we have been hearing all week from smaller players is that, far from finding themselves in a more free market, with more opportunities, they feel that they have less bargaining power.  A market that is only free for the biggest players is not free, and it is because the market has, in fact, constricted that the small players are coming to you for various protections, and with concerns about the sharing of content across multiple platforms.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17971             Yet even in a perfectly functioning, more diverse private sector, it would still be the least equipped of the tiers to respond to the call for diversity as expressed in the Act.  The private system, by its nature, must aggregate the largest possible audiences, and there is no incentive for true diversity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17972             Yes, you will get an OMNI here and there, but only if there are relatively large ethnic populations with disposable wealth, concentrated in urban centres like Toronto.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17973             A fully publicly funded CBC would be better equipped to seek out alternative voices, assuming they had something relevant to say on a national platform, but it would still be one monolith, with a single corporate ideology and way of doing things.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17974             It is the third tier, the community tier, that was uniquely designed with Canada's sparse population and challenging geography in mind to serve the needs of the minority voice, the regional voice, the voice without financial backing, and a diversity of voices overall.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17975             Let's look at the diversity objectives in the Act, as stated in the Hearing Notice.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17976             First, the system should encourage a wide range of Canadian expression.  Wider Canadian expression cannot be achieved, then, by giving a voice to every Canadian who wishes to exercise it.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17977             In the private and public sectors, Canadian expression requires professional training, a lifetime career commitment, and ownership of the means of production and distribution     ; not a recipe for wide participation, as we have seen at this hearing.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17978             Next, that it provide reasonable opportunity for the public to be exposed to the expression of differing views on matters of public concern.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17979             Community television surpasses this modest expectation.  It allows for the expression of not just a reasonable number of different views, but all views.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17980             That the system should take into account regional needs and concerns.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17981             The consolidation of media has resulted in the progressive closure of both private and public sector regional television channels.  In many places community TV is the only source of local information and entertainment, because it is cheap to produce.  Volunteer TV makes sense.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17982             Next, all Canadians should have reasonable access to the system.  I ask you:  What does access mean?  Access to turn on your TV and hear a diversity of voices as a passive consumer?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17983             How about access to the means of production to make your own voice heard?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17984             If all Canadians are to have reasonable access to the system, it can only occur on the community tier.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17985             Lastly, to ensure that the voices of Aboriginal and ethnic Canadians, as well as those with disabilities, have appropriate access to the system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17986             Until 1997, at Shaw in Calgary, as one example, there were broadcasts by the Calgary deaf community, by local Aboriginal bands, and by various ethnic groups in their own languages.  Community TV channels prior to 1997 provided training, support and access to equipment on a non‑discriminatory basis.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17987             These elements are a prerequisite for any media system that seeks to provide universal access.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17988             So how is the community tier doing as far as providing access by individual Canadians to the system?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17989             What happened at Shaw in Calgary also occurred at their Winnipeg and Vancouver offices as a result of 97‑25.  In Calgary and Winnipeg there was little resistance because people were unaware of their rights.  In fact, their rights were poorly defined in that policy directive.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17990             In Vancouver, a politically savvy group of ex‑volunteers ‑‑ Rogers volunteers ‑‑ opposed the consolidation of six community TV offices in 1996 and formed the Community Media Education Society, which has intervened both in this proceeding, with written comments, and in person in the past.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17991             In Quebec, most community TV channels were already operating at arm's length from cable operators, so they had the organizational infrastructure to fight exclusion from Videotron channels by La Fédération des télévisions communautaires autonomes du Québec.  La Fédération has also intervened in past hearings.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17992             Between 1997 and 2002, areas served by Shaw and Videotron had no access to community TV channels.  Only with 2002‑61 did Shaw in Vancouver, under pressure from the CMES, and Videotron in Quebec, under pressure from the Fédération, allow community access programming back on.  They provided no financial support for such program production, however, and no training, and little equipment support.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17993             Only recently, thanks to concerted press coverage obtained by the Fédération, has Videotron started to contribute some of its 2 percent community TV levy to the support of community access programming.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17994             Rogers has a slightly better record.  They still use and train volunteers, and accept program proposals at some locations, but it was Rogers that consolidated six Vancouver channels into one in 1996, and Rogers that is in the process of consolidating maritime community TV channels into regional channels, with a majority of professionally produced programming.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17995             You will hear more about this from my colleagues from St. Andrews.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17996             The only places in the country that still have unfettered community access are small cable co‑ops that have resisted takeovers, such as Westman Cable in Manitoba.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17997             Operators based in the communities they serve have preserved the spirit of co‑operation with their communities to produce programming.  Where once all cable operators could have said the same, and the pairing between the cable operator and the community access TV channel was logical, it is no longer so.  In one decade, Canada has become one of the few western democracies that does not adequately guarantee its citizens access to the airwaves.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17998             The once vibrant example of community TV in Canada led to the establishment of community access TV in most countries I visited.  As the U.S., Europe, Israel, Australia and South America opened their airwaves to cable, digital and satellite, some of the new space was reserved for public use, not just by national or provincial authorities, but by citizens.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17999             This idea was enshrined in the famous Geneva World Summit on the Information Society in 2003, and continues to spread as democracy, wealth and TV spreads.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18000             In Nepal and Fiji, community TV was not copied from us, but was rediscovered as a self‑evident principle; that is, if people are not seeing themselves and their communities reflected on TV, they should be given the bandwidth and access to equipment to make their own.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18001             So what should be done to revitalize this tier here, so that it, too, can make its contributions to the diversity goals of the Broadcasting Act?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18002             My recommendations are, first ‑‑ and these are backed by the Community Media Education Society, incidentally ‑‑ that all BDUs, not just cable operators, should provide 2 percent of gross revenues, 5 percent in small markets, to independent, community‑run, community access TV channels.  Local carriage should continue on cable.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18003             Second, that additional channels should be set aside, up to a set percentage of bandwidth, for public use.  The community channel was once one channel among 30.  The percentage available for public use should have grown with bandwidth, as has occurred in the United States, where there may be five or six channels for public use by universities, schools and local government, producing a rich mix of locally relevant educational programming, much of it which already exists.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18004             Third, community access centres should not be restricted to television, but should be platform independent, in the same way that conventional broadcasting is becoming platform independent.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18005             For example, in Michigan and California, at two of the most advanced access centres in the world, local musicians can record a song simultaneously for radio, television and the web.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18006             As technologies change, community access centres must also change their service mix, so that ordinary citizens continue to be able to participate in the dominant medium of their day.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18007             Fourth, there should be a national public access channel and professional development body, as used to exist through the CCTA, funded from the 2 percent, by contribution, from member channels.  It should be carried on satellite and national BDU providers.  It would be programmed from the best or most nationally relevant of community access programming, to give alternative voices the potential for a national reach.  National collaboration and competition would keep program production values high.  National channels of this type already exist in Australia, the United States and Israel.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18008             In the short term, this central body would re‑educate community channel staff and the public, as an understanding of the purpose and operational models for community access have largely been lost in the last ten years.  Where once there were community animators and volunteer coordinators with NFB‑style training in most so‑called community TV channels in this country, these positions have mostly been eliminated.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18009             Lastly, ads with moving video and product placement are incompatible with the goal of promoting universal access.  The regulations should be rolled back to pre‑1997 rules, which permitted only text and verbal sponsorship.  The community channel should not be competing for advertising dollars with private broadcasters.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18010             In conclusion, although we are uniquely positioned to do so by the Access and Local Origination Mandate, the community tier is currently barely functioning as a viable alternative to the private sector, as far as providing diversity to the broadcasting system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18011             Like the CBC, these channels are now predominantly driven by a commercial mandate.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18012             Clear and simple regulations to split control of these channels from the BDUs are needed right away.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18013             The complexity of 2002‑61 vouches for the fact that the old pairing between small local cable operators and public access to the airwaves is no longer workable.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18014             2002‑61 prepared the way for this separation, with the creation of separate community TV licences, but the categories of such licences, their for‑profit or non‑profit nature, and the issue of funding is not clear.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18015             The requirements for access in 2002‑61, such as they are, only 30 to 50 percent of channel output, are also neither being enforced nor adequately monitored by the Commission.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18016             As Commissioner von Finckenstein has said, it is just too complicated.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18017             I would welcome the chance to be involved in any revision of policies affecting community television.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18018             Thank you very much.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18019             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18020             We will now proceed with the presentation of St. Andrews Community Channel Inc.

INTERVENTION

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18021             MR. DICKSON:  Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen of the Commission.  It is a real pleasure to be here, and thank you for allowing us to attend.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18022             My name is Brian Dickson, and my colleague is Patrick Watt.  We represent CHCT‑TV.  We are a licensed, low‑power television broadcaster, licensed by the CRTC.  In fact, we are the only independent over‑the‑air TV station in New Brunswick.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18023             This week we have listened to many of the intervenors who submitted voice to these hearings.  Interestingly, those different voices came from very different sources ‑‑ associations, unions, journalists, television and radio broadcasters, and distributors.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18024             One can only imagine what this week would have been like if only one entity had something to say.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18025             Of course, that one entity could have made the point several times over in the course of the week, allowing viewers a choice of when to tune in.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18026             A few years ago, when the people of St. Andrews community channel were faced with a decision on the channel's future, we had to make several choices.  One was:  How would we survive.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18027             We originally operated only under the cable operator, which, by 2000, had changed hands twice.  In 2003, after having no correspondence with the new BDU, we approached them, to learn only that they wished us to become independent of cable, and not to expect any financial assistance.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18028             We felt abandoned, but also knowing that we had been operating without their help anyway, we felt that our community deserved to maintain its local programming.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18029             With that in mind, and understanding that many in our community were not subscribing to cable because of a lack of choices on a 34‑channel dial, we opted to broadcasting our service over the air.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18030             I might interject at this time and say that to read "opted to broadcasting our service over the air" is pretty easy to say, but I can tell you, as a very small organization, that was a huge task.  I hate to guess how many bake sales it took for us to get there.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18031             So that's where we are coming from.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18032             Today, CHCT‑TV volunteers produce a variety of local programs, and also provide an important communication tool for local business through advertising.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18033             Local TV advertising is simply unattainable anywhere else in New Brunswick.  Local broadcasters cannot even guarantee local viewing of their advertising because of the BDU's time‑shifting choices.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18034             Frankly, local broadcasting in our province barely exists, if you consider that most of the over‑the‑air broadcasts originate from outside New Brunswick ‑‑ all but five hours per week, which come from CBC‑Fredericton.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18035             This is what big media has brought to our province.  It is quite embarrassing, really, when you consider that a small station, just across the border, in Presque Isle, Maine, boasts serving northern Maine and western New Brunswick with four local newscasts per day.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18036             Ironically, this station is not available to most in our province.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18037             Where does community television fit in?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18038             One might have thought that cable community television might fill in the gap where commercial television left off.  In our case, as of August 2006, Rogers was granted the go‑ahead to serve the province on a regional basis, not quite as one region, but seven; that is, seven slightly different versions of the same programming blanketing our province, and soon our community, St. Andrews.  This is not community programming.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18039             I might interject at this point on the score of local programming.  It was our very great privilege during the last few years of putting programming together to serve our community in a number of emergency services.  I think that is very important for any small community, to have quick connection and communication with its people.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18040             For example, in the ice storm of 1998, the town of St. Andrews declared a state of emergency.  It took many soldiers from Base Gagetown to come down and spend close to a week to get everybody, basically, unfrozen.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18041             You can imagine how many people, elderly people in particular, were frozen in their homes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18042             When we did have pockets of power every so often, we were able to bring news and information to them.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18043             A few years ago the town was threatened by a major forest fire.  Again, the same kind of emergency service was provided.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18044             You are probably all aware of the current LNG issue that dominates our area.  It has attention right up to the Prime Minister.  It is an ongoing issue.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18045             The most complete coverage, of course, is what we are providing to the local people, and I think that is very important.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18046             As a final example, recently I was called from Halifax by the Coast Guard to ask if they could put information out to the public, via our channel, locally, so that they could let people know they were going to be engaged in a mock operation of some sort out in Passamaquoddy Bay.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18047             That all happens through our local channel, run by volunteers, who hold a lot of bake sales.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18048             We and many other communities across Canada have seen local television erode.  Many across the country are worried about changes at their local community channel, but here, in New Brunswick, the concept of community television has become a provincial role.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18049             Earlier in the presentations today I heard the comment, in reference to a newspaper article, I believe, which indicated "concentration is diversity".  I think that was seen as some sort of an Orwellian concept.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18050             I like to use the analogy of David and Goliath.  What you are seeing in New Brunswick, really, is concentration becoming diversity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18051             Although I like the analogy of being David, in this case David needs some help.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18052             The St. Andrews community channel operates as CHCT‑TV on UHF Channel 26, and so far has had a 14‑year cablecast on Channel 10.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18053             Our home on cable has an unknown future, because many small stations like ours, but without a low‑power licence, have been dismantled and stripped from the cable dial.  We are hoping not to become one of the same.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18054             Although we are on UHF 26, we still have cable viewers.  We have been assured that our cable channel positioning cannot be taken from us.  However, there is regulation that allows a BDU relief from community LP TV carriage, which worries us about the regulation's intent.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18055             CHCT‑TV is a very small, non‑profit, community‑run organization, with seemingly little protection because a major BDU may be allowed relief from carrying us, while, at the same time, has been qualified to import programming from larger centres into our market and call it community television.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18056             It is difficult to run a small station, with few people, on a voluntary basis.  We are sure the same could be said for a newsroom in a small‑town commercial station.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18057             We do it because we live here and care for our town.  If we did not live here and tried to manage a small station such as ours 1,000 kilometres away, it would be more difficult, and therefore more tempting to automate or rebroadcast a regional service.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18058             We feel that CHCT‑TV can help greater media diversification in our county, or beyond, in a province lacking voice.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18059             However, current regulations do not allow a low‑power community station to be distributed outside its licensed area.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18060             This seems unfair, considering the new regional standing that Rogers has.  In comparison, CHEX‑TV 2 has a licensed market in Oshawa, Ontario, but is also distributed by cable in the Greater Toronto Area, a market 40 times the size of its own.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18061             The blurring of local expression does not stop within our maritime borders.  Even our cross‑border U.S. stations are replaced by those available in the Toronto area.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18062             Would public television viewers in Toronto prefer to watch Maine public TV instead of WNED Buffalo?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18063             An example of over‑branding is that OMNI TV, from Toronto, is frequently substituted onto TBS in New Brunswick.  Is this not just favouritism because the BDU owns OMNI TV?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18064             You must question a system that allows an organization to own a TV station, sell TV commercials to support local programming, and, in turn, re‑sell that programming to subscribers who are encouraged to record the programs on their rented BDU personal video recorders, and then skip through the commercials for convenience.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18065             The CRTC's role must be not only to find ways to encourage a sustainable economic climate for media companies, but also, at the same time, and just as importantly, to provide space for voices that are not motivated by marketing concerns.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18066             The community channel has long been the fundamental sphere in which community and individual expression have been allowed access to the medium of television.  It seems that a return to this valuable voice, such as that provided by truly local community television, is exactly what the broadcast system needs but is set up to exclude.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18067             That concludes our presentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18068             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18069             These hearings are fascinating, in that they give us a completely different perspective every time someone appears.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18070             Listening to you, I hear many concerns.  What is your principal concern?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18071             Is it the issue that you mentioned, that current regulations do not allow low‑power community stations to be distributed outside their licence areas?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18072             MR. DICKSON:  Our principal concern is really quite simple.  We are a very small, licensed, independent channel in a province that is dominated by Rogers.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18073             We are feeling threatened by what their purported plans are.  We have difficulty trying to find out what those plans are, while, at the same time, we find that the CRTC, with every good intention, has put regulations in place to introduce access for low‑power television, encouraging licensing and so on, and we appreciate that, but it would seem that, in certain parts of regulation, there are ambiguities which suggest that, on the one hand, you want to protect us and encourage us, but, on the other, leave the door open for the larger companies to simply steamroller us.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18074             That is basically our concern.  That is why I used the David and Goliath analogy.  I think we need some help this time.  We can't sling that stone alone.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18075             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, you have no stone in your slingshot.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18076             MR. DICKSON:  No.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18077             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am glad you have brought this to our attention.  As you know, we will be having a hearing in January on BDU rules, and if there is ambiguity, as you suggest, and a need for clarification, that will be the time to take that up.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18078             MR. DICKSON:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18079             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You seem to feel threatened by Rogers, and I am trying to figure out, if you are such a small community station and you go after something which is really not Rogers' market, why should they even be ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18080             MR. DICKSON:  We feel threatened because we don't know how long we will be allowed to continue our operation.  We don't know for sure that, if we lose our spot on the analog channel, we will automatically be reassigned a digital channel.  We aren't certain that will happen.  We hope it will.  We would like to keep our position on Channel 10, in fact, but if we have to be moved, will we be simply removed, as some small channels in our province have been?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18081             Will there be enough bite to the regulations in existence to allow us to simply say to Rogers:  We have every right to be on your system, because we are the only independent channel operating here, in our location.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18082             That is our concern.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18083             The other concern is that we don't have a great deal of success in getting information from Rogers.  In fact, I had to send a registered letter to a Rogers executive in Toronto to try to elicit some response.  What happened was, the letter was pretty much piggybacked back to a lesser executive in Fredericton, who really didn't have any answers for me when I spoke to him about:  What are your plans?  You are doing this to other channels.  The grapevine says that you are going to be down our way in the next year.  What is happening?  We want to make our own plans.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18084             We don't hear anything from them.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18085             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18086             Ms Edwards, with respect to your submission, I was looking at the various recommendations which you have suggested.  Obviously, (a) and (b) I understand quite well.  With respect to recommendation (c), I am wondering what is stopping you from doing that right now.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18087             You say that community access should not be restricted to television, but should be platform independent, the same way that conventional broadcasting is becoming platform independent.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18088             Is somebody stopping you from doing that?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18089             MS EDWARDS:  It would mean that licences would be needed ‑‑ a radio and a TV licence in the same place.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18090             Because most community access centres, unlike St. Andrews, are still run by cable operators, it would require cable operators to make that decision.  Whereas, if community access channels were made independent, then this kind of change, keeping up with what is, in fact, going on around the world, could take place.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18091             THE CHAIRPERSON:  This whole idea of the divorce of community channels from cable companies, in your scenario, what do you do with existing ones?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18092             Do you grandfather them, or do you insist on a divestiture over time, or what?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18093             I don't see from your submission where you are going with this.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18094             MS EDWARDS:  I don't have an issue with the cable operators continuing to run a local channel which looks a lot like local private broadcasters used to.  They are full of product placement and full, moving, video ads and so on, and professionally produced programs.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18095             If they want to keep producing them, by all means, keep producing them.  My issue is that the $80 million, or the 2 percent levy money that they hold in trust to run a community access TV channel is not being used for community access, and if they are not willing to play that game any more, as they used to, then that money needs to be given to an organization that can do the job.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18096             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18097             Ron, I believe you have some questions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18098             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes.  Thank you, Konrad.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18099             Ms Edwards, could you please explain how community‑based television broadcasters provide a different voice in the broadcasting system?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18100             Conventional broadcasters say that local programming is what distinguishes them from nationally focused services.  What do you provide that conventional television broadcasters do not provide?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18101             MS EDWARDS:  What community access provides is the ability for every single person in Canada, should they so wish, to express themselves on what is still the dominant medium of our times, and that is TV.  I feel that that is ‑‑ and a lot of people around the world now feel that that is an essential part of a democracy.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18102             The idea that you can go and stand on a street corner with a bullhorn and have people walk by you and look at you like you are a weirdo or a blog, that 10 people read, is not sufficient to participate in the information society.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18103             That is what it provides, the possibility that everyone can access and participate in this system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18104             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18105             Mr. Dickson, as one of the few community‑based television broadcasters who has received a new licence, can you please explain what obstacles you have encountered in establishing your service with that licence, and do you have any thoughts as to why more community groups haven't applied for a community‑based television licence?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18106             MR. DICKSON:  In answer to your first question, about obstacles, I would have to say that when we decided to begin the whole application process, it was precipitated, essentially, by Rogers shutting the door on us.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18107             So, as a group of volunteers, we had a meeting and decided that we would try this.  From that day, we had a huge learning curve to go through.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18108             But I will say that, at every step of the way, we got support and help from your body.  The CRTC people that we dealt with were encouraging and helpful, and provided us with the right information.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18109             None of us was a television expert, as such, so we had a lot of "dumb" questions, I am sure, but they helped us immensely.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18110             The real obstacles came in terms of dollars and cents.  Where do you get the equipment to get out there?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18111             Well, we are pretty good e‑Bayers ‑‑ and that's the truth.  The truth isn't very far from the bake sale reference that I made, either.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18112             We have had fundraisers, auctions ‑‑ you name it ‑‑ as all other small groups do.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18113             Those were the biggest obstacles, and remain the largest obstacles.  For us, it is fundraising.  We are completely volunteer.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18114             But the initial process was good.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18115             The second part of your question, as to why there aren't more ‑‑ it was interesting earlier today when there was some discussion of low‑power television brought up in a radio presentation.  It wasn't really certain, all around, how many LP TVs there were in the country, I think, and there aren't very many.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18116             I believe one Commissioner pointed out that they are beginning to receive some LP TV applications, and I think that is very good.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18117             I particularly think it is good because of our own position here.  I hope that other small organizations don't feel threatened about doing it.  That's not a good thing.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18118             Does that answer your question?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18119             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  It does, and thank you for helping us better understand how the type of service that is provided by your volunteers effectively puts unity in the community, so to speak.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18120             Those are my questions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18121             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18122             Stuart.

`                COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I have one question, Ms Edwards.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18123             I am racking my brain.  I think the Hungarians used to say that there are too many heads under my hat, after a week of this, but I am trying to cull up the details of our 2002 change to community broadcasting.  I was certainly part of that decision, so if it is terrible, part of it is my fault.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18124             We were making an effort there, as I recall, to get the community back in, to stop regionalization as much as possible.  Some of it had gone so far that ‑‑ some of them, as I recall, were almost networks, and we were trying to pull them back.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18125             As you say, we guaranteed a certain percentage.  Did we not, also, have sections in that decision which said that if the BDUs ‑‑ the cable companies ‑‑ don't do the job, they could lose the licences to volunteers?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18126             MS EDWARDS:  It does say that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18127             My understanding is that there are two groups in Canada that have made such a challenge so far, but no one has successfully taken the 2 percent levy, which is the key, away from a cable operator so far, even though there have been ongoing complaints about Videotron from the Fédération, and ongoing complaints about Shaw in the west.

`                COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Have applications been made to us?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18128             Because they don't filter to the top until staff has worked on them.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18129             Do you know if there actually are ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18130             MS EDWARDS:  I was informed that there are two in progress right now.

`                COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  In progress.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18131             That will be very interesting, because I know that that was our strong statement to the companies:  Do it right, or lose it to someone who will.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18132             MS EDWARDS:  The problem was, 1997 was extremely confusing.  It encouraged cable operators to try to experiment.  It said that the channel is no longer protected, it is mature and doesn't need to be regulated.  And yet, at the end, there was sort of a footnote that said:  Oh, by the way, if you are going to keep your 2 percent and run a community TV channel, you should continue to observe access principles, as under the 1991 policy.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18133             I would have been confused if I was a cable operator, too.  Most of them interpreted it how they wanted, and in a lot of parts of the country there was no access for about five years, and most people ‑‑ volunteers from the channel that I used to facilitate had no idea that they had any rights, or that it was a CRTC policy that there ever were community TV channels.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18134             Other than a few pockets where people were better organized and informed, people didn't know about it.  They drifted away, and those old networks are gone.

`                COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes, and in those days there was still some good local television on a commercial basis, as well, so people, I guess, didn't feel the pain right away.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18135             MS EDWARDS:  The problem with 2002 is that most cable operators ‑‑ I am most familiar, admittedly, with Shaw, because that is what I have seen close up ‑‑ already viewed the channel as their own promotional channel by then.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18136             The ex‑program manager in Calgary recently told me that they make about $2 million a year off that channel.  I don't know if that is true, that was just something that was said to me in a casual comment.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18137             One thing that I would like to enter in the public record, actually, is how much community access programming has changed.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18138             I have a pre‑1996 clip from Vancouver's Lower East Side of the way the Rogers programming used to look.  It is a clip showing Grade 2 and Grade 4 Aboriginal children making a take‑off of the Titanic, and the Grade 4 kids are trying to figure out the plot details, and the Grade 4s say, "We are going to be the super heroes, but who are we going to get to play the bugs and the mice?"

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18139             And the Grade 2s, who are even smaller than the Grade 4s ‑‑ it cuts to them, and the Grade 2s say, "We don't want to be the bugs and mice, we want to be the super heroes."

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18140             That's what happens.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18141             For me, that is the best clip I have found across the country of what access used to be; that anyone, in terms of diversity, can represent themselves on community TV, but it is not a passive process.  You have to have educated people at community TV channels who can go into the community ‑‑ go into schools that don't have much money and animate these children to get their voices heard.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18142             It is something that has to be planned for.  You can't have, kind of, a mish‑mash, mixed mandate, with cable operators that want to turn a buck from these channels.  It just doesn't work.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18143             It used to, because cable operators were small.  Now it doesn't.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18144             The second clip I have on here, if you take the time to look at it ‑‑ it's about seven minutes altogether ‑‑ is Shaw's programming in Vancouver, in that same market.  Now it is thinly disguised ‑‑ well, it's not even disguised ‑‑ product placement on a big commercial‑like breakfast show called "Urban Rush".  There are sponsored messages all through, and product placement, and it's overt.

`                COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So Shaw got to be the bugs and the germs.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

`                COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.  Those are my questions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18145             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for your presentations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18146             MR. DICKSON:  May I ask one last question?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18147             THE CHAIRPERSON:  By all means.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18148             We usually ask the questions, but if you want to ask one, go ahead.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18149             MR. DICKSON:  Would I be out of order if I asked to submit, for the record, to your panel three letters of support from three different mayors in our area?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18150             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Not at all.  Give them to the Secretary.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18151             MR. DICKSON:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18152             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Morrison, before we hear from you we will take a five‑minute break.

‑‑‑ Recessed at 1450 / Suspension à 1450

‑‑‑ Resumed at 1459 / Reprise à 1459

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18153             THE SECRETARY:  We will proceed, Mr. Chairman, with the next presenter, Friends of Canadian Broadcasting, Mr. Ian Morrison.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18154             THE SECRETARY:  Mr. Morrison, when you're ready you can start your ten minute presentation.

INTERVENTION

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18155             MR. MORRISSON:  Monsieur le président et membres du Conseil, c'est un juste retour des choses au moment où la concentration des médias nous prive de plus en plus de nos grands journalistes d'enquête d'en trouver un des meilleurs, Michel Morin, parmi vous cet après‑midi.  Ça va vous aider à dénicher la vérité et nous en sommes ravis.

 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18156             Mr. Chair and Commission members, thanks for granting Friends of Canadian Broadcasting an opportunity to appear today.  This hearing is the first significant review of media ownership since the 1970 Davie Commission and it's long overdue and we congratulate the Commission for its leadership.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18157             While some have commented that this proceeding is taking place after the train has left the station, we recognize that the timing of acquisitions is beyond your control. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18158             Going forward, your priority attention should be directed towards the horizon or a bit past the horizon to a Rogers Shaw merger, Telus Rogers merger, or as you speculated earlier this week, Mr. Chair, a CanWest Shaw merger.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18159             The policies emerging from this hearing will be needed to guide your assessment of such somewhat unforeseen events.  Broadcasting distribution undertakings, BDUs, principally big cable, have a huge impact on diversity of voices and should, therefore, be a focus of this review.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18160             To quote your predecessor, André Bureau, Mr. Chair, cable operators pose the greatest threat to diversity.  Concentration of ownership in and of itself may to a point not conflict with diversity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18161             On the other hand, while concentrated BDU ownership has no doubt allowed the provision of a more robust cable offering, especially in smaller communities.  These benefits are offset by a lack of competition and increased BDU control of which optional carriage services get through the gate and which do not.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18162             Friends considers the existing high concentration of ownership in the BDU sector to be a much larger threat to diversity of voices and the spectre of only two private English language conventional tv networks.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18163             Even though the Commission has allowed the creation of DTH and other alternatives to cable, the reality is that cable remains a territorial monopoly.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18164             Another reality is that outside Quebec, there are two dominant cable companies and two DTH players with the second largest DTH company being controlled by the second largest cable company.  We see many benefits resulting from ownership concentration, including the provision of better service. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18165             However, ownership concentration remains a serious problem in gate keeping and abusive dominants directed at smaller providers.  BDUs are able to circumvent the Commission's linkage rules intended to ensure that they do not provide themselves with undue preference because they control packaging and virtually dictate the specialty services pass through these.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18166             Diversity of voices requires that the Canadian broadcasting system should be comprised of larger as well as smaller companies.  A cursory review of the submissions by smaller independent licensees paints some rather sombre portrait of just how much they are at the mercy of big cable, especially with respect to launching category 2 specialty services.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18167             Only the largest of the specialty groups have the clout to create a fair and balanced relationship with their BDUs and all others, beware.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18168             The BDUs would have you abandon every rule with the exception of preponderance. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18169             If you were to bless their wish list, you would thereby virtually guarantee the demise of the smaller players.  We do not believe that is what the Commission means by market forces.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18170             I would like to quote briefly Martha Houska, a Stornoway CEO who said:

                      "For years now, the Commission has authorized numerous specialty digital channels, but the authorizations are null and void until one or more of the BDUs grants the licensee carriage.

In effect the BDUs now control not only which Cat 2s get distributed, but which must‑carry services will survive.  Is this what is envisaged in the Broadcasting Act?  Is this in the public interest?  Are the BDUs going to determine the nature of diversity in Canada or what the broadcasting system will look like in the future?  Is this what we really want, where we really want to go as a nation?  As the Canadian consumer and business owner, I sure hope not."

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18171             Unfathered access to American services under the guise of customer service is not in the best interest of the Canadian broadcasting system.  Were it to happen, U.S. programming currently purchased by Canadian specialty services would no longer be available to them.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18172             Canadian partnerships with U.S. services would be abandoned in favour of direct licensing, much as we saw happen with RAI‑2 which was allowed direct access even after a Category 2 partnership with CORUS ha been approved.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18173             If you were an American service, would you prefer having a 20 to 30 percent share of a Canadian partnership that contributed a significant percentage of its revenues to Canadian programming, while on the other hand 100 per cent of the revenue from Canadian exhibition with no programming costs whatsoever.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18174             If it's only about what customers want, then perhaps in addition to American programming services being invited to Canada, so too should American cable and DTH companies. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18175             Friends' priority is the creation of more Canadian programming that resonates with viewers and commands audience and we know that airing prime time U.S. programming is essential to financing Canadian programming.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18176             Simultaneous substitution is a critical part of the foundation of our broadcasting system generating at least an incremental 20 to 25 per cent revenue for Canadian stations, while at the same time protecting the programming rights for which the broadcasters have paid.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18177             BDUs control not only the environment in which Canadians watch television, but in large measure, the channels they are able to see and that is not new.  It has been the case almost from the beginning of cable and more recently, DTH.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18178             What is new is that in many cases these same BTUs also control the distribution of unregulated content through the internet, cell phones and PDAs.  Video on demand has moved BDUs into the position of buying next day runs of U.S. prime time shows.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18179             How long will it be before BDUs begin acquiring first runs of these same shows in direct competition with broadcasters? 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18180             Friends also believes that it is imperative that the system not be undermined by unregulated services that do not contribute to the overall goals of the Broadcasting Act.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18181             Accordingly, diversity of voices should consider media available to the public that are not currently regulated by the Commission, especially services that deliver content wirelessly to cell phones, PDAs and other devices not yet contemplated.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18182             The vast majority of this unregulated content is or will likely be controlled by the biggest cable wireless and telephone companies.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18183             In size, these companies or broadcasters, they continue to bid hard for control of this content which may cause its migration from conventional television or specialty channels.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18184             In conventional television, the common ownership policy is of greater current concern than radio.  The ownership of private English language television station groups could recently have fallen effectively into the hands of just two players, had the Commission not intervened. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18185             The ensuing public policy precedent had this been allowed to occur would have made it almost impossible to prevent eventual domination of a single private sector conventional owners in French language television.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18186             Its neither possible nor desirable to set in stone a common one size fits all conventional television ownership policy going forward.  Indeed, the Commission should retain the right and the flexibility to review each application on its merits.  As circumstances in various markets differ, the issues require careful individual assessment.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18187             The overall principle guiding the Commission's decisions should be that exceptions to the common ownership policy should be granted only when they constitute the best possible outcome for the viewers and listeners in that market.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18188             Friends also supports the Commission's historical practice of maintaining industry balance for both market competitors and advertisers. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18189             At what point does all this concentration tip into a negative development to the Canadian audio visual system?  Friends suggests the following as a guide to the Commission's thinking.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18190             For commercial English language radio, the advent of three dominant players in place of the current four would reach the tipping point.  For commercial over‑the‑air English language television, the tipping point has almost arrived with three dominant players.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18191             For the distributors, we have passed the tipping point and measures are now needed to curtail their dominant position in the interest of diversity of voices.  A meaningful test of diversity is whether or not smaller independent specialty channels are able to survive, as opposed to having to sell out to an entity large enough to secure carriage with ongoing carriage fees sufficient to enable that service to meet its regulatory obligations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18192             And finally, a word about the CAB's preposterous suggestion that the benefits policy be abandoned.  Benefits are critical to funding Canadian programming.  The leading benefits for BDUs was a big mistake and one that should be corrected.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18193             Il ne faudrait surtout pas croire qu'il est trop tard.  Vous pouvez et vous devez agir dans l'intérêt de l'ensemble des Canadiens.  Merci.

 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18194             Thanks for your attention.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18195             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for your submission. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18196             How do you explain the very different view that you have as opposed to the Canadian Association of Broadcasters who were here on day one, that we are suffering from a surplus of diversity and a surplus of programming choice and to you basically saying that we are past the point already in terms of BDU and diversity is in danger?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18197             MR. MORRISSON:  We think that a surplus of diversity is moron and we think that they should probably collect ten per cent from their members and pay their staff better, so that they don't come with such ridiculous ideas, Mr. Chair.

‑‑‑ Laugher / Rire

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18198             THE CHAIRPERSON:  On page 2, you have the following remark:  BDUs are able to circumvent the Commission's linkage rules intended to ensure that they do provide themselves as only per preference because they control packaging and virtually dictate the specialty services pass through these.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18199             Would you care to elaborate?  That's a fairly strong accusation, we might say.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18200             MR. MORRISSON:  But I think I am standing in line behind a number of other people who have appeared before you and have written you.  It is our observation based on more than a decade of review that this in fact the casse.  It's not stronger than the facts warrant.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18201             One problem that your staff has is that they can only deal with complaints and because the bargaining power, and particularly of smaller players vis‑à‑vis cable is so limited, it is injurious to business interests of many of the smaller players, even suicidal to step up and tell it like it is.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18202             We have numerous examples to go from, but quoting them would perhaps betray confidences and would also not be in the interests of the cause that we represent.  You have a reputation of demanding more clear answers and I am wondering if I can be clearer than that, sir.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18203             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I just want to understand you when you say: "because they control packages and virtually dictate a specialty service part".  So, what about here of controlling packages is interesting, they can dictate the prices on the parcel fees?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18204             MR. MORRISSON:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18205             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Lastly ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18206             MR. MORRISSON:  And by the way, particularly in the digital tears, yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18207             THE CHAIRPERSON:  After seven years as Commissioner of competition, I know something about abusive dominants so I understand what you are saying.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18208             MR. MORRISSON:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18209             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, on page 5, you are suggesting you're passed the tipping point of BDUs and can you explain that? 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18210             We have terrestrial cable, pay basic all over Canada, we have two separate DTH distributors and we have now practically everywhere coming on stream slowly, but it's coming obviously, IPTV, is delivered by the Tel Cos.  How does that give the BDUs a strangle hold?  I would have thought here that means you have three if not four competitors in most areas?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18211             MR. MORRISSON:  Yes.  One could take the point that there is, in fact, competition for the delivery of broadcast services into the home.  It's just that the competition is very limited.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18212             For example, in something like 20 to 25 per cent of Canadian households concentrated in larger urban centres, DTH is not a viable option because of multiple resident dwellings ‑‑ people facing north, et cetera ‑ things of that nature.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18213             Also, cable, as a territorial monopoly, has a huge advantage in the initial costs of the service.  It is something that is beyond the reach of the typical person to pay some three digits of cost to get going with DTH. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18214             It may well be the case when something you bequeath as the electricity company may be able to deliver service to the home to have a genuine competition with cable, but they have just a huge advantage in addition to, of course, the fact that they are the predominant service, the service that started out with 80 per cent penetration in the first place.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18215             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And the Telco delivery like Cesco, MTS, Alliance, et cetera?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18216             MR. MORRISSON:  Yes, it's ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18217             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Bell has a licence, I don't know, I think they have just launched though the entire stage, but surely that's going to provide ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18218             MR. MORRISSON:  There are bandwidth issues in moving in the direction of paper view, which is one of the economic drivers, cable certainly has currently an advantage over a number of the other providers.  It's not an absolute, Mr. Chair.  It's just a question of a preponderant advantage.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18219             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You know, my only question there:  are we fixing something as opposed to fixing itself because the Tel Cos are coming on, there is also a question of doing access by way of YMAX, et cetera and, you know, the whole delivery of these things over wireless, might technologically fix what you see as presently in your advantage about cable companies.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18220             MR. MORRISSON:  I think you have a responsibility to the viewers and indeed, listeners of Canada to be concerned about the next ten years and not something that may ultimately happen and to that extent, I think that you have to ‑‑ I'll put it this way ‑‑ our recommendation to you and I think we're backed by and we are ourselves backing a number of others in this regard, is that this is a problem that may be temporary, but is of sufficient duration that you should not do nothing.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18221             I am fully aware that you have a hearing coming up in January and that these subjects can be aired at that time and I'll tell you that we'll be there and we'll have done more homework by them, listening carefully to any questions you posed today.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18222             THE CHAIRPERSON:  O.K.  Thank you very much.  Michel you have some questions?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18223             CONSEILLÈRE MORIN :  D'abord, merci, monsieur Morrisson pour vos bons commentaires.  J'espère simplement que ça ne m'influencera pas sur le choix de mes questions.  Ceci dit...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18224             MR. MORRISSON:  It's just important to call a spade *a spade+.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18225             CONSEILLÈRE MORIN:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18226             Vous êtes un observateur particulièrement important de la scène canadienne, autant du côté privé que du côté public et vous avez pris connaissance sans doute au cours des deux dernières semaines du Rapport Dunbar Leblanc. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18227             Et ce rapport... une des recommandations a été reprise par le National Post lorsqu'il parlait d'une perestroika au CRTC avec la suggestion que les radiodiffuseurs et les entreprises de satellites, enfin que les BDUs ne tiennent que, finalement, 51 pour cent des canaux canadiens dans l'ensemble de leur offre et qu'on mettra fin aux règles d'assemblage.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18228             J'aimerais savoir votre opinion au niveau de la programmation canadienne, quel serait l'effet si on laissait le choix aux consommateurs?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18229             Actuellement, il y a 500 canaux américains.  Si on devait utiliser cette règle du 51 pour cent, les entreprises de câblodistribution seraient obligées de l'observer et ça aurait probablement comme effet de réduire de 500 canaux américains à 300 l'offre sur le marché canadien.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18230             Alors, cette règle qui semble très libre dans le fond, qui semble privilégier l'approche commerciale et en fonction du consommateur à 51 pour cent, est‑ce que ça aurait un bon effet, selon vous, sur la programmation canadienne ou ce serait désastreux?

 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18231             MR. MORRISSON:  Well, first to talk about ‑‑ it's a very good question and the report that your Commission has commissioned and published we are studying very carefully and we have a lot of concerns with what we've seen so far. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18232             But just to zeroing on the Canadian content question, of course the issues are very different from the point of view of the anglophone and the francophone viewers.  The organization for which I speak is primarily concerned with the English language audiovisual system, Mr. Morin.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18233             So, first off, just to map that system with respect to Canadian content, the important thing to keep an eye on with the adult population is what is available to people between 7 h 00 and 11 h 00 p.m. each day, the hours of prime viewing, the prime time and you will know that on the English language side, particularly with over‑the‑air broadcasting, access to Canadian programming in prime time is quite limited.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18234             And where it does exist, you'll find pro‑scheduling strategies where CTV, for example, will dump a lot of its Canadian content onto a Saturday evening, running it back to back against Hockey Night in Canada, et cetera.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18235             The specialty television channels are much stronger when it comes to the presentation of Canadian content in prime time and, of course, the public broadcaster is by far the strongest.  So, that is a background.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18236             Secondly, I think it's a non‑starter to envisage a policy that would reduce Canadians access to foreign signals that they already have and certainly that would run counter to the multi decade behaviour of this Commission and so, it is a question of trying to ensure that there are policies in place that encourage a certain minimum of viewing of Canadian content at times when Canadians are willing and able to do that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18237             It's also a question that has been described by many as shelf space for Canada, but we try to keep an open mind about that and other recommendations of the recent report and will be responding in more detail come January.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18238             CONSEILLÈRE MORIN:  Vous dites qu'au niveau de la télévision conventionnelle, commerciale, on est déjà à un point de saturation, qu'il y a déjà trois joueurs dominants du côté du marché anglophone, mais au Canada il y a 32 millions de population, aux États‑Unis il y en 300 millions, il n'en ont que quatre.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18239             Est‑ce que vous ne mettez pas la barre très haute?  Est‑ce qu'il ne pourrait pas y avoir une consolidation et uniquement en voyant les critères de la population et, deuxièmement, et surtout cette question‑là que je voudrais vous poser : est‑ce que l'important n'est pas qu'au niveau local il y a une règle que le CRTC applique et encore récemment, qu'il ne peut pas y avoir un propriétaire de deux stations de télévision dans un seul marché?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18240             Est‑ce que ce n'est pas ça qui est important finalement plutôt qu'une image générale?  On ne sait pas dans quel sens ça peut aller et est‑ce que la barre que vous mettez n'est pas très haute, trois au Canada, quatre aux États‑Unis?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18241             MR. MORRISSON:  We could talk about how many there are in Sweden or in Holland or in other countries of a size similar to Canada as well.  But we think that what you did in the ‑‑ what your Commission did in your evaluation of the CTV‑CHUM matter was fundamentally important to the audiovisual system and without prejudice to what you may decide regarding the Rogers‑CHUM matter, we are supporters of Rogers acquiring the assets of CHUM under the appropriate conditions because we think that is fundamentally important and we think that Canadians would lose a great deal if we were down essentially to a huge CTV and at disadvantaged CanWest competing in over‑the‑air television.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18242             We are not really a country of 33 million or 32 as you've said million people.  We are really a country with two markets, a six or seven million francophone market and a 25 or so anglophone market and we think it's also fundamentally important in broadcasting policy that there be more than one private sector French language over‑the‑air television operation in this country too.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18243             So, as I've said in my oral presentation, had there effectively been just two left on the English side, it would be very difficult to prevent there from being just one on the French side and I guess if I had to say that ‑‑ to comment on the American four over‑the‑air system, I would say it's kind of irrelevant to us.  I would compare us more to countries that are more of our size and scope and in situation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18244             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Just one quick question.  On your final point on the last page regarding tipping points and you used the sentence in the middle: "meaningful test of diversity is whether or not smaller independent specialty channels are able to survive" and then you go on.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18245             Are you talking about Cat 2s here?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18246             MR. MORRISSON:  Including Cat 2.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18247             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You've included them?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18248             MR. MORRISSON:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18249             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It creates a problem when you include Cat 2s because we specifically created a category of high risk and we said, look, you can have these, all you need is a pulse and a passport essentially, and an idea, I suppose it doesn't even have to be an original idea, but it's up to you, you know. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18250             You are an entrepreneur, go and get it and you may know or may not know, but some people have applied for these things literally in bushel baskets full of applications, so that we have the pet channel, the dog channel, the brown dog channel, the small brown dog channel, really small brown dog channel.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18251             MR. MORRISSON:  It has been compared to staking mining claim site.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18252             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes, a little bit like mining claims or the worst of the Vancouver Stock Exchange and the battle there and I guess my question to you is: is that a fair test of whether BDUs are playing fairly, if in fact we've created a type of service which specifically says low threshold, no guarantees.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18253             Can we turn around and say the BDUs are failing us because they are not putting them all on?  Is that fair?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18254             MR. MORRISSON:  Not putting them all on.  It's more a question of the way that the BDUs are behaving.  If there were more BDUs so that no one could really control your business plan, it would be different, but it's question of scale and scope and it is not just Cat 2s that we're talking about.  It's all of the smaller providers.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18255             I mean, CanWest, if and when it acquires the Alliance Atlantis assets, the specialty assets, will have quite a bit of bargaining clout with the BDUs.  CTV uniquely has it and that creates a huge disadvantage for all other broadcasters vis‑à‑vis those two entities right now, Mr. Langford. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18256             So, you know, conceptually I would say we stick to our guns, but we also think that there will be another occasion to discuss this in more detail.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18257             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Absolutely, but you put it on the table here.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18258             MR. MORRISSON:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18259             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  When small cable companies, to go to the other side of the telescope, had problems, they formed an association and bargained from strength for affiliation agreements and what not; deals.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18260             Why shouldn't some of the responsibility be put on to these owners of Cat 2s or small entrepreneurs to group together and try to bargain from strength?  I mean, why should the answer always appear to be some sort of regulatory engineer, social engineering by a regulatory body like us rather than letting these people try at least to exercise their market power?  They don't seem to have done much in that way.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18261             MR. MORRISSON:  Well, you said the question was brief, should the answer should be brief and the brief answer is because in our judgment and the judgment of a lot of people with whom we discuss, we are dealing with 800 pound gorillas here and there is a lot more than meets the eye.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18262             It's a doggy dog kind of world out there and it's hurting the availability of high production value Canadian content at times when people can watch.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18263             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But is there any evidence, because you study this world, that the smaller players are getting together and trying to bargain from strength?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18264             MR. MORRISSON:  It is, of course, back to the birth of the Trade Union Movement, it is a technique people use who lack power to organize.  They have been unsuccessful in doing anything that controls the power of big cable and I don't think that it's a viable solution. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18265             In other words, I don't think you can ‑‑ your Commission's responsibilities under the Broadcasting Act can be let off the hook by the idea that self‑help might just solve the problem to be continued.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18266             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You know I don't think we're trying to get off the hook here, but we are looking at all the options.  Thank you very much.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18267             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Those are our questions, sir.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18268             MR. MORRISSON:  Thanks.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18269             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madame Boulet, I think we are running behind schedule, so let's go on to the next one.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18270             THE SECRETARY:  All right.  I would now call the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada to come forward for their presentation.

‑‑‑ Pause

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18271             Mr. Don Hutchinson is appearing for the intervenor.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18272             Mr. Hutchinson, you have ten minutes for your presentation.  Please go ahead.

INTERVENTION

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18273             MR. HUTCHINSON:  Mr. Chair and Members of the Commission, I will refer to The Evangelical Fellowship of Canada as the EFC.  That will make it a little bit shorter this afternoon.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18274             The EFC is the National Association of Canadian Evangelical Christians.  EFC affiliates include 40 denominations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18275             Religious broadcasters have added substantially to the diversity of voices in Canadian media.  Given the contemporary experience that the Canadian broadcasting system now has with religious broadcasters, this hearing is welcomed as an opportunity to participate in and encourage the reconsideration of the Commission's policies in regard to religious broadcasting and balanced requirements in broadcasting.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18276             Although the Broadcasting Act requires balance in programming provided by the Canadian broadcasting system, under current Commission requirements only single‑faith religious broadcasters are required to establish balance in their programming on a station‑by‑station basis by providing broadcast time to other faiths as a condition of obtaining a licence.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18277             This interpretation of the Act's requirement for balance with respect to religious broadcasting has resulted in a discriminatory policy which is not required or stipulated by the Act.  This conclusion is affirmed by the analysis and recommendations of the Dunbar/Leblanc Report.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18278             The current policy of the Commission results in an undue restriction on the freedom of expression of those individuals and organizations that desire to operate as single‑faith religious broadcasters.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18279             The current policy is also financially harmful to Christian broadcasters ‑‑ and I will focus on Christian broadcasters, since they are who I have spoken with.  Restrictions that have been imposed by the Commission in regard to balance in programming by providing broadcast time to other faiths inhibits the operation of single‑faith broadcasters and the opportunity for a substantial number of Canadians to receive programming for which there is a demand.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18280             The EFC endorses the recommendations made in its written submission of July.  The EFC also endorses Recommendation 11(h)(i) of the Dunbar/Leblanc Report.  The EFC proposes that the Commission amend its interpretation of the requirements of section 3 by eliminating the special policy program requirements that differentiate between religious broadcasters and all other broadcasters licensed by the Commission.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18281             Religion is a significant part of Canada's multicultural heritage and multiracial nature.  Each of the cultures and races present in Canada, from our First Nations people to contemporary immigrants, have a historic religious expression as a significant component of their identity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18282             Religion remains an integral part of Canadian society.  Both the 2000 Ipsos Reid poll and 2001 Statistics Canada report on religions in Canada indicate that 85 percent of Canadians believe in God.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18283             Religion is not simply about church services, but encompasses the vision and primary philosophy for life of many Canadians.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18284             That Ipsos Reid poll also indicates that 67 percent of Canadians state their religious faith as being important to their day‑to‑day lives.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18285             In 2002, the EFC sent a survey to 15,000 Evangelical Christians in connection with submissions being made to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage in regard to the Broadcasting Act.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18286             A return rate of over 20 percent revealed that Canada's public broadcaster, the CBC, produces little religious broadcasting.  Over 75 percent of respondents were of the opinion that the CBC does not carry a sufficient amount of religious programming, and CBC Radio fared slightly better.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18287             As Canada's publicly funded broadcaster, the CBC falls short of the mark of providing representative broadcasting or balanced broadcasting in the area of religion.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18288             Other individual stations in the broadcast system are required in order to make up for the CBC's lack of balance in religious broadcasting.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18289             This situation is one example of an existing interpretation of the Broadcasting Act on a system‑wide or regional basis.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18290             In a like manner, the Broadcasting Act's requirements for balance in all religious broadcasting could be interpreted on a system‑wide or regional basis, rather than a religious broadcaster‑by‑religious broadcaster basis.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18291             The broadcast system is now well equipped to handle single‑faith broadcasters without the need to comply with existing Commission policies in regard to religious broadcasting.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18292             The licensing of a variety of multicultural and specialty stations, which also broadcast an array of faith‑based programming, satisfies the diversity requirements for television broadcasting on a system‑wide or regional basis in substantial markets across the country.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18293             The licensing of radio broadcasters on the basis of culture and language, similarly, fulfils the diversity requirements in radio.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18294             The Commission requirement that each religious broadcaster is required to provide opportunity for a diversity of religions to express themselves through programming is a practice that also places an extraordinary financial burden on religious broadcasters that is not required of other Commission licensees.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18295             Financing for alternate religious programming is often difficult to find.  In order to accommodate Commission requirements, a number of religious broadcasters are now required to provide free or low‑cost programming to other faith groups in time slots otherwise available for full‑cost paying programming.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18296             Advertisers who are targeting a Christian audience on Christian stations are not willing to pay for advertising during programming of other faiths.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18297             Advertisers who are targeting other faiths are not willing to pay for advertising on Christian stations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18298             The Dunbar/Leblanc Report states:

                      "When Christians tune to their preferred religious broadcasting station, they expect to receive programming that predominantly reflects Christian values and teachings."

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18299             This same statement applies to advertisers.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18300             Since the Commission began licensing single‑faith broadcast stations, Christian media in Canada has contributed, in a number of positive ways, to the lives of Canadians.  Canadian Christian broadcasting fosters a unique sense of community and Canadian Christian identity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18301             Many Canadians who previously tuned to American radio stations are now served by one of the growing number of Canadian single‑faith stations.  Christian radio and television connects Canadian Christians across cultural, ethnic, theological and linguistic lines.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18302             As a result of the internet, Canadian broadcasters playing Canadian artists are also enjoying international success.  There is a direct connection between Christian radio and the Canadian Christian music industry.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18303             Christian book and music stores across Canada indicate that sales of Christian music, particularly Canadian artists, have increased when a radio station goes on the air in their community.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18304             Similarly, Christian television in Canada serves as a venue by which many Canadian artists launch themselves into further work.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18305             History has demonstrated that the Commission decision to license single‑faith religious broadcasters has greatly benefited Canadians.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18306             Religious broadcasters are broadcasting an array of programs which align with Canadians' expression of commitment in life and understanding of the world in which we live.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18307             The EFC supports a policy of fair and balanced access to and use of the airwaves.  The Broadcasting Act requires that the broadcasting system be balanced in the expression of matters of public concern.  The Act does not require that any individual broadcaster provide this variety.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18308             Additionally, it has become evident with time that religious broadcasters no longer require the special regulation that has been applied only to them.  There are now other suitable methods of regulation available through the standards and structures that regulate all other broadcasters.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18309             Accordingly, Commission policies that distinguish between religious broadcasters and other broadcasters should be rescinded, as they are discriminatory in nature.  The broadcast requirements and standards of ethics should be consistent for all broadcasters.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18310             That concludes my remarks.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18311             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18312             At the second‑last line of your presentation, you suddenly throw in something which ‑‑ until then you were talking about balancing and how it is unfair, but now you suddenly say:  The separate standards of ethics required of religious broadcasters should also be eliminated.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18313             I don't quite see the connection.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18314             MR. HUTCHINSON:  If Christian broadcasters were treated on an equal footing with all other broadcasters, there would no longer be a need to distinguish them in any category of regulation.  They would simply fall under the same form of regulation as any other broadcaster, they would begin to work with the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council, and so forth.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18315             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18316             I believe, Andrée, that you have a question.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18317             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  I only have two questions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18318             I am referring to paragraph 14, in both cases, of your oral presentation and your written intervention.  You say:  "Other individual stations in the broadcast system supplement the CBC's lack of balance in religious broadcasting."

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18319             Lack of balance vis‑à‑vis what?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18320             MR. HUTCHINSON:  The CBC does carry a minor amount of religious broadcasting.  It is primarily the broadcast of Christian services ‑‑ church services.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18321             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  But the lack of balance is with ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18322             MR. HUTCHINSON:  The lack of balance is that they are not carrying similar coverage of other faith groups, and that balance is being made up by stations like Vision TV, or by the single‑faith stations that are required to provide that balance.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18323             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  All right.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18324             My second question refers to paragraph 24 of your written submission, where you say that you have a financial burden because you have to open your airwaves to other faiths, and it costs you more.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18325             You know that community stations have to have varied viewpoints.  In what way should you be different from community stations?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18326             Would they be discriminated against because we ask them to present the various aspects of what is going on in their community?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18327             MR. HUTCHINSON:  The various aspects of what is going on in the community are currently presented on single‑faith broadcast stations, if we look exclusively at Christian programming, from a Christian world view perspective.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18328             Similarly, in community‑based stations, they are looking at the different aspects of what is going on in the community from their own world view, not necessarily from a variety of world views.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18329             When I say "world view", I would say that the Christian faith expresses one world view, the Muslim faith another, the Hindu faith another, and so forth.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18330             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  Maybe, if there were more diversity on your airwaves, there would be more ouverture d'esprit between all of these faiths.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18331             MR. HUTCHINSON:  There are some terrific measures for interfaith co‑operation that are taking place, and certainly the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada is working in the forefront of those efforts.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18332             Last November we saw 50 different faith groups come together to agree on a statement on an issue that we had in common, and we continue to have dialogue in that way.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18333             However, the reality is that a Christian broadcaster has to carry broadcasting coverage for other faith groups, and those faith groups ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18334             There are two things that are happening ‑‑ three, really.  One is, those faith groups know that coverage has to be carried, so they are able to say, "You have to carry the coverage, even if we don't have the money.  So you help us out, or you will lose your station."

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18335             Two, those faith groups, some of whom might have the capacity to do their own single‑faith broadcasting, or they have access to other multifaith and multicultural stations where they are broadcasting, as well, are saying, "We don't have production facilities, because we don't have our own station.  To produce something we have to use your production facilities," and then there are questions about using the equipment in those facilities, paying the crews, and how that is going to work out.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18336             When you have an organization that can't afford to carry those costs, but you have an obligation to put them on the air, then the Christian station is picking up that cost.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18337             Then, the third item which I mentioned is the advertisers.  You have Christian advertisers who are saying, "Look, our target market does not include the Muslim community, and we don't want to be identified with a Muslim show," just to pick an example.  It could be the Hindu community and a Hindu show, or the Jewish community ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18338             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  That is close to discrimination.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18339             MR. HUTCHINSON:  ‑‑ and a Jewish show.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18340             An advertiser, in any medium, is selecting their time slots and which programs they want to support.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18341             I am backing up and I am saying that this is what the advertisers' position is.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18342             On the other side of that you have the advertiser from the Hindu community, or the Jewish community, or wherever, saying, "I would really like to support your show, but I don't want my dollars going to that Christian station."

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18343             The result is, the Christian station is footing the bill all the way.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18344             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  It's called charity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18345             MR. HUTCHINSON:  It may be called charity, but it also makes it difficult to make the bottom line meet, and to keep staffing salaries appropriate, and to keep your staff sound.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18346             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  Thank you.  Those are my questions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18347             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Michel, do you have a question?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18348             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  The last question that the Chairman asked you was regarding ‑‑ well, you said that you wanted the Commission to rescind the discriminatory nature of the Christian radio format.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18349             Does that mean that if the Commission were to agree with your proposal, they could also change the musical format?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18350             If, for any given reason, they are not as successful as they would have wished, then they could become a mainstream radio station?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18351             MR. HUTCHINSON:  I think the requirements for the music stations that are single‑faith are substantially different than for talk radio stations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18352             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  That is why I am asking you the question.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18353             Are you looking to be relieved, also, of those conditions of licence?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18354             MR. HUTCHINSON:  No.  I believe that when you license a single‑faith station, they should maintain the obligations of functioning as a single‑faith station.  They may, then, have the option of selecting to offer airtime to other faith groups ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18355             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I am not talking about religion, I am only talking about catering to an audience that could be broader, which is the audience that all of the commercial broadcasters are aiming at.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18356             MR. HUTCHINSON:  I don't think I would endorse a Christian music radio station becoming a contemporary rock station instead of playing Christian music, although a lot of Christian music is contemporary Christian rock.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18357             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you, Mr. Hutchinson.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18358             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18359             MR. HUTCHINSON:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18360             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think, Madam Boulet, that we are on a run.  Let's do the next two before we take a break.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18361             THE SECRETARY:  I would invite Professor David Skinner and Mr. Michael Andrew Lithgow to come forward for their presentations.

INTERVENTION

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18362             PROF. SKINNER:  Thanks for the opportunity to speak to you today.  My name is David Skinner.  I teach Media Communications Studies at York University, and I am here, also, on behalf of Bob Hackett from Simon Fraser.  We were co‑authors on the submission.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18363             I am also one of the founding members of Canadians for Democratic Media, an organization that encourages people to e‑mail and fax comments about this issue to the Commission, which is why I have attached those comments, or a selection of those comments from those e‑mails to my oral submission today.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18364             As I noted from both press reports and a number of submissions of large media corporations, generally those corporations do not feel that there is a problem with media diversity in Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18365             However, I think it is pretty obvious that Canadian media markets are dominated by a handful of large corporations, which control not only newspaper and broadcast markets, but also internet portals and the most visited internet news websites.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18366             Certainly, while hard data on the impact of media consolidation on media content in Canada is somewhat hard to come by, as illustrated by the layoffs of journalists and other media workers that have accompanied these mergers over the last decade, and the declining production of local programming and Canadian drama, and concerns raised by previous inquiries, such as the 2003 Lincoln Report, and the more recent Fraser Report, threats to the range of perspectives and ideas available to Canadians need to be taken seriously.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18367             While the internet is often trumpeted as seemingly offering a myriad of new sources of information, really, with a few notable exceptions, independent and alternative news sites are hugely under‑resourced and act largely as information aggregators, producing very little original content.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18368             What original content they do produce is generally piecemeal in terms of coverage, and often suffers from poor production values.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18369             Blogs, another alternative that is often trumpeted, generally suffer the same problems, and largely offer only opinion pieces, not news.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18370             This is not to say that the internet does not offer immense possibilities for increasing diversity, simply that the resources are currently not available to exploit that opportunity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18371             Given that there is a problem in terms of diversity, what is to be done?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18372             Generally, I think there are several issues at play.  The first is to cap the concentration of ownership, and particularly cross‑media ownership.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18373             The second, as we have been hearing today in particularly eloquent terms, I think, is to encourage the creation of and investment in diverse avenues of expression.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18374             This latter point is particularly important in the face of corporate rationalization and the now growing new media.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18375             As outlined in our written submission, and as has been made clear in numerous studies over the years, guidelines on acceptable levels of common ownership and cross‑media ownership need to be established in all areas of the Commission's purview, including, as Mr. Morrison was saying, distribution.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18376             Similarly, in cases where further consolidation is approved, I think that baseline criteria for maintaining some level of diversity inside media organizations in the wake of mergers must also be established, and measures for ensuring that these criteria are adhered to instituted.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18377             Indeed, what is the point of imposing conditions on organizations if there isn't follow‑up to ensure compliance?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18378             From what I understand of them ‑‑ which isn't a lot, I have to admit ‑‑ the Australian‑inspired rules that were discussed in the earlier part of these hearings would go a good distance toward maintaining competition and, by extension, some elements of diversity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18379             I think that, certainly, competition is to be taken seriously.  Certainly, as evidenced in Toronto, competition is a key driver of diversity.  I think that the Toronto media market is quite diverse, particularly in terms of other markets in anglophone Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18380             However, again, without clear criteria on the dimension of diversity expected of licensees, built‑in promises of performance, and some form of enforcement, as the history of the broadcast system illustrates, it may only be a matter of time until the more costly of these measures are eroded and perhaps ignored.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18381             Some of the possible criteria that might be used in this regard are outlined in paragraph 15 of our larger submission.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18382             Again, promoting competition, I think, is only one piece of the puzzle, particularly competition among large media corporations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18383             Content diversity needs to be underwritten by structural pluralism, or you might say structural diversity, particularly in terms of forms of ownership.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18384             One thing that media research makes clear is that there is an organic link between diversity in media content and diversity in forms of ownership and control.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18385             In other words, different forms of ownership, such as commercial, community and public service, yield different media content.  Really, one has to only look at the CBC, to see how it differs from its privately owned conventional cousins, to see this principle in play.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18386             The 1991 Broadcasting Act, as we all know, provided ground for structural pluralism within the system ‑‑ and, again, we have heard this, I think, very well today ‑‑ however, for various reasons, the promise of the contributions of such media as community radio and community television just have not been realized.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18387             In particular, as we heard recently, the relaxation of rules around mandatory support for community channels has yielded a marked loss of diversity in the programming offered by those channels, again, particularly in anglophone Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18388             Consequently, measures to support the development and maintenance of public and community expression should also be instituted.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18389             I think we outline a few possible options in this regard in paragraph 16 of our submission.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18390             For instance, one of the key ways to increase diversity would be to give the CBC more latitude in developing specialty channels.  Historically, the CBC has illustrated that it is one of the most effective vehicles for producing and distributing Canadian content, so why not allow it the same privileges in developing economies of scale as are afforded the private sector?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18391             Further, developing diverse avenues of expression is a moot exercise unless Canadians have ready access to them.  Hence, to increase access to broadcast programming, over‑the‑air services should be increased.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18392             Digital technology offers opportunities to a significantly increased spectrum use, particularly for public and community elements of the system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18393             Another way to introduce diversity at the level of distribution would be to establish a must‑carry tier of public and community channels on the basic service offered by all BDUs.  Such a tier might be supported by mandatory subscription fees, as well as other means, such as a production fund and one‑time infrastructure development grants.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18394             As pointed out in our submission, these might be funded from public benefits packages.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18395             Services offered on such a tier would have to be socially mandated, not‑for‑profit organizations, basically all dedicated to airing a high percentage of Canadian content, and with full access, even, to commercial revenue, if they desired.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18396             If such a set of organizations were given space on the shelf within the system, and equipped with reasonable revenue streams ‑‑ which is a key point, again, that has been underlined here by a number of intervenors ‑‑ it would probably be only a matter of time until they were able to develop synergies between themselves.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18397             As for some of the other questions raised by the Commission in the notice for this hearing, in our written submission we have comments on benefits policy, licence trafficking and new media, among other things.  In the interests of time, I will confine myself to the benefits policy.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18398             I think the benefits policy provides some impetus to diversity within the system, certainly both directly, in terms of program funding and talent development, and those kinds of things, and also indirectly, as may not be often noticed, through academic research and the creation of various post‑secondary research chairs, scholarships, et cetera.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18399             However, I think that the contribution in this regard might be improved.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18400             First, the disposition of all of those funds should be decided by an independent party or organization, not parties directly involved in a transaction.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18401             I believe that a small percentage now ‑‑ is it 1 percent that the parties get to decide?  Still, it could represent significant dollars.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18402             And allowing the parties involved in the transaction to find the specific form of such benefits really raises a number of possible conflicts of interest.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18403             Second, a significant portion of benefits packages should be directed toward a fund to support community broadcasting.  This would be a good way to promote diversity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18404             Third, a wide range of research is needed to better understand the impacts of current technological change and media consolidation on the system, particularly with regard to issues of diversity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18405             So, some portion of those funds should be devoted to such research.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18406             As far as I know, there really are no sources of funding in Canada dedicated to administrative research now.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18407             Finally, in that all licensees are accountable to the public purpose of broadcasting under the Broadcasting Act, there should be an onus on all licensees, including BDUs, to demonstrate significant benefits to the system flowing from any transactions that take place within it.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18408             Before closing, I just noticed in the press that at least one presenter made mention of something to the effect that the Canadian public was not concerned about media diversity.  That isn't the case.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18409             As the CEP's submission illustrates ‑‑ one of the many things that submission illustrates ‑‑ there have been a number of surveys over the last five years that have demonstrated that not only are Canadians concerned about the concentration of ownership, but that they want to see something done about it.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18410             Moreover, as a selection of comments from some of the e‑mails and faxes sent to the Commission regarding this hearing, which are attached to this document, illustrate, many Canadians do, indeed, find existing levels of diversity to be a problem.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18411             And certainly I think one thing, as was raised today earlier by presenters, I mean, I certainly appreciate the opportunity here.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18412             I mean, Canada is I think, and the Commission particularly, is very good about having the public come to comment, right, but, you know, opening that ‑‑ I realize funds are scarce and that kind of thing, but opening that up to some extent to the general public, perhaps through town hall meetings, right, might really sort of raise awareness of the general public of these issues, or at least, if not raise the awareness of them, raise the awareness of others of the general public's knowledge of them, if nothing else, right, to give them an avenue really to come and speak.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18413             So, anyway, in sum then I think there are basically two key issues here for us, right.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18414             One is capping ownership and then, of course, encouraging the creation of some kind of structural diversity in forms of ownership and financing media properties.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18415             Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18416             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18417             We will now proceed with the presentation of Mr. Michael Andrew Lithgow.  Please go ahead.

INTERVENTION

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18418             MR. LITHGOW:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18419             Just briefly by way of introduction, I spent about six years working out in Vancouver at Vancouver Co‑Op Radio as a volunteer journalist and producer and then I spent another seven or eight years with ‑‑ in community television and I just recently completed my Masters studying a small community television broadcaster in Cape Breton and I've just started my Ph.D., and so that's sort of my personal background.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18420             Thank you for inviting me to speak today at today's hearing.  In my written submission I referred to democracy as being the elephant in the room at CRTC hearings.  I want to address this comment a little more carefully in my presentation today and, again, to propose some practical strategies for coming to terms with the complexities in the relationship between telecommunications in Canada and the Canadian democracy.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18421             When I say elephant in the room, I mean that despite the obvious and profound role that telecommunications plays in Canadian political life, little of the discussion in these kinds of hearings addresses how proposed changes will affect Canadians as citizens in one of the most envied democracies in the world.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18422             We've excelled in discourses about market development and corporate development in the sense of developing large Canadian telecoms companies to compete in global markets and I think we can agree that given the kinds of fiduciary obligations owed by corporate managers to their shareholders, these are exactly the kinds of discussions that industry representatives should and, in fact, must have.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18423             Market development, market stability, market expansion, all are important aspects of the Canadian communications landscape, but they are not by any means the whole discussion and must never be mistaken for the whole discussion concerning telecommunications in Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18424             And that is the single most important point that I want to make in my presentation today.  The CRTC is the only agency in Canada that can ask applicants and licensees to join in a dialogue about our democracy and the profound role they play in it.  And it is my position that the CRTC must invite them into this essential public conversation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18425             The dangers of leaving the elephant in the room without a name are too evident, at least they become evident when we look around the world at alternate models of social organization.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18426             Where we find the absence of diversity in media ownership, we find trouble.  These absences are the shades of gray found in the shadows of the sorts of societies we abhor: theocracies, autocracies, dictatorships.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18427             Canada is far from any of these but not by accident; it is because of agencies like the CRTC who have the authority to intervene when necessary to tip the balance of decision‑making and policy outcomes towards open, accountable and informed public cultures.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18428             Sometimes, and I suggest that concentration of media ownership is one of those times, the important work of the telecommunications industry and the important work of protecting and encouraging democratic principles are at odds.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18429             This may seem a provocative position to take; less provocative is to point to the obvious examples of the highly concentrated media ownership in China today, in Philippines under dictator Ferdinan Marcos, in Libya, in Berlusconi's Italy, in Kazakhstan, in Zimbabwe.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18430             My point is that where you find problematic and undemocratic social structures you always find high concentrations of media ownership.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18431             I'm not suggesting the chicken or the egg, I'm not saying one necessarily causes the other, I am saying that media ownership is related to political governance and the stakes are too high not to publicly consider the impact of one on the other in hearings such as this.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18432             The media plays many important roles in a democratic context.  Media helps define the morality of a time and place, no small thing, especially when one considers that morality is the informal cousin of law.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18433             Imagine a prime time filled with programs about lovable embezzlers and blackmailers and newscasts that down play the significance of public trust and accountability.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18434             Imagine news that treated sponsorship scandals as insignificant and routine, and labelled investors in Bre‑X as simple fools who should have done their homework.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18435             The news is often news precisely because of moral frameworks that have been challenged or broken.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18436             The media helps shape public opinion which is an often intangible but almost irresistible pressure for policy‑makers.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18437             Media is how we tell stories to each other.  Canadian culture resides in these stories, in the shared media flows, in the books and films and television programs, in the newscasts and newspapers and documentaries.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18438             We are a diverse people and our stories originate from diverse cultural settings, from the First peoples in the north, First Nations in the west, in the prairies, in Quebec, in central Canada, on the east coast, to the stories from Canada's francophone and anglophone communities, the stories of the fishing settlements of fur traders and homesteaders of mining and transportation and manufacturing.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18439             How many different kinds of immigrant stories make up the Canadian cultural landscape?  From the Scottish and English and German peasants of a few centuries ago to the migrant workers from Latin America who provide the labour for much of our agricultural economy today.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18440             What are the stories of our queer communities?  Where are the stories of our poor, our youth?  What are rural stories where so much of Canada's wealth originates?  What are the stories of Canada's disabled communities?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18441             If we doubt for a moment that these are the people who make up Canadian society, then we are being wilfully blind.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18442             And if we doubt for a moment that these stories form an essential part of Canadian culture, which in turn informs and defines the Canadian democracy, then we are hiding from the social reality that surrounds us.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18443             When the Commission says diversity in broadcasting, these are the diversities that are the foundation of Canadian society and these are the diversities that are rendered invisible when the media is owned by a small unrepresentative group.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18444             No one group can be sufficiently open and flexible to reflect the full richness and diversity of Canadian society.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18445             The importance of these stories can't be overstated, they're how we collaboratively and collectively make sense of the world, how we decide what is important and what problems need to be solved by political processes, how we collectively envision the future, make sense of the past and determine what and who to remember from the past.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18446             The media provide the connective tissue that binds all of us, citizens, institutions and organizations alike together.  When this diversity is betrayed, when some or many or most of the stories don't get told, that's when a society starts to look and feel like the ones I mentioned earlier, the dictatorships and theocracies or whatever other kind of undemocratic system of governments might arise.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18447             So, my recommendation to you today in response to the questions asked in this hearing is for the Commission to require applicants and licensees to articulate how their activities will benefit Canada's democracy.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18448             I can imagine a three‑step response.  One, for the CRTC to explicitly acknowledge the important role that telecommunications play in Canada's democracy; two, to then ask for applicants and licensees to say in their applications how their proposed activities will influence Canada's democracy within the regions they are operating in and, where applicable, in terms of the overall system; and, finally, the third step, to ask specifically in instances of applications for increased concentration of ownership or multiple licensees in single markets, for applicants to describe how their activities will impact diversity of opinion in the affected region and diversity of representation within the broadcast system itself.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18449             A broadly convened democracy test would give applicants the opportunity to fully articulate their positions without unduly restricting or hampering their efforts on behalf of shareholders.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18450             It would, and this is my point in a nutshell, force applicants and licensees to put resources and energies into considering the impact of their activities on aspects of Canadian society that fall outside of the very narrow confines of their legal obligations within corporate hierarchies.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18451             And it would create the opportunity for all of us, citizens, the Commission, licensees and applicants through public hearings like these to consider seriously the future of Canada's democracy and how best to manage the telecommunications industry in order to preserve and to balance the rights, freedoms and responsibilities that make the Canadian democracy one of the most envied in the world.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18452             The CRTC is entrusted with the responsibility and authority to mete out the directives found in the Canadian Broadcasting Act.  It is here that we find authority for policy initiative of this kind to initiate a public conversation among stakeholders about the relationship between democratic governance and telecommunications.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18453             In section 3(d)(i) of the Broadcasting Act:

                      "The CRTC is entrusted to ensure that the Canadian broadcasting system safeguard, enrich and strengthen the cultural, political, social and economic fabric of Canada."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18454             This fabric is, I think we in this room can all agree, cut from a democratic cloth.  To leave this obvious observation out of the conversation is to leave the elephant without a name.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18455             Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18456             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18457             I must say, I'm astounded by your submission.  I am on record saying diversity of voices is necessary for the functioning of a democracy.  I said that before I was even appointed to this job.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18458             Everybody has quoted it here.  This whole hearing is about exactly what you are talking about.  We are talking about, what do we do?  Why do we have all these Commissions?  Fraser, Davey, Lincoln ‑‑ you name them.  They are all worried about exactly what you are talking about.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18459             I mean, and I don't see how you can say the elephant hasn't been named.  We have not been shouting democracy from the roof tops, but all our discussions here are on exactly that point, and aren't we exactly looking ‑‑ not maybe as explicitly as you said it ‑‑ but we're doing exactly that, we're looking at an application, we say what does it, obviously first of all to the ‑‑ what does it mean for the applicant, but also what does it mean for the viewers, for people who want to be on the system, who want to move on to see themself reflected, et cetera, which is all part of the diversity which is required for the good functioning of democracy.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18460             I mean, it is very eloquently stated what you say here and you sort of bring it to the top, but I don't see how, if I look at your recommendation on page 10 there, it would be in any way really different than what we are doing, unless I am missing something.  So, please explain it to me.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18461             MR. LITHGOW:  But my experience in these hearings, and I've intervened in a number of hearings over the years from the perspective of a community television organization, is that what happens in these hearings, and especially I'm thinking about earlier in the week, not so much now, today the issue of democracy comes up, but I wonder, what did Shaw say about their role in Canada's democracy in their submission?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18462             What did Rogers say?  What ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18463             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Shaw basically said it's in our interest to be diverse because diversity sells, unless I am ‑‑ diverse as possible, then I'm going to lose audience shares.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18464             So, that was their position.  The system works by itself because it's in my interest as a broadcaster to be as diverse as possible.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18465             MR. LITHGOW:  And my hungry point here is that audience share is very different than the dynamic relationship between citizens and the institutions that govern the societies that they live in.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18466             I mean, Shaw and all of the corporate entities that are here, they're doing what they do very well and they're doing what they do best, but their fiduciary at law, they're required to conform to a certain specific set of obligations to their shareholders.  Their responsibility is not Canada's democracy, that's the citizens of Canada and the CRTC and the people in this room.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18467             So, Shaw is not required at any stage to really address in particular potential negative implications for their decisions or for CanWest Global if they get two licences in the same market.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18468             Well, how does that really affect diversity?  And my thinking behind this was, is that we come in here with, you know, St. Andrew's Community TV station, we don't have any resources, the private sector has the resources.  If they're required to articulate a position and say, we don't think having two major licences in a single market is going to interfere with the democratic principles that we hold dear and here's why, then at least it becomes an explicit conversation about...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18469             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  I mean, this is obviously not a proposal to bless or not a merger, but when there are such hearings before us, like there was in CTV CHUM or as there will be on CanWest Global, I think this subject is implicitly on the table.  It is not as well put ‑‑ not put as explicitly on the table as maybe you want, and it's a good question, should we ask CanWest, what is the impact of your merger on democracy?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18470             I think they will answer exactly, they will say, well ‑‑ we will see what they say, but I don't want to put words in their mouth, but I think they will refer to the diversity of how, with greater financial clout, they are going to be able to service more aspects of the Canadian community.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18471             But anyway, I understand your point and I don't mean to argue with you, I found it interesting what you say and, as I say, very eloquently, but to some extent I feel we do exactly what you suggest.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18472             Mr. Skinner, you say capping ownership is essential, and I actually underlined the way you phrased it, that there's a direct correlation between ‑‑ let me just find it:

                      "Media research makes it clear that there's an organic link between diversity in media content as a diversity in forms of ownership and control."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18473             Now, we have some ownership in terms of radio, we have some ownership restrictions in terms of TV, we don't have any cross‑ownership regulations right now.  The CBC proposed sort of two or three role, clearly borrowed from of the Australian model.  What's your view of that?  Would that be a useful role to adopt; would it help to ensure exactly what you are looking for?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18474             MR. SKINNER:  Sorry, was that the Australian model, or...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18475             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The Australian model has overlaid on it one of the key roles is that in any market you can't have more than two out of three, any of the three being radio, television and newspapers.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18476             MR. SKINNER:  Well, I think that as long ‑‑ if you go back as far, at least as the Davie (ph) Commission or Davie (ph) Report, Kent and right straight through from there, I mean, cross‑media ownership has always been pointed at as the worst form of ‑‑ as the worst form of concentration and particularly because of the way in which, you know, content could be re‑purposed between those different markets, right.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18477             So, I think, yeah, it's important to have some kind of cross‑media ownership or restrictions for sure.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18478             I mean, cross‑media ownership really ‑‑ I mean, this is the big key is that when we're thinking about the development of the broadcasting system, certainly there have been, you know, this great proliferation of channels and when people point to the system now and say, well, look, there's hundreds of channels available, you know, what's the problem?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18479             Well, one of the issues is, of course, that when we see like the major players that are controlling most of these channels, what they want to do in building these cross‑media companies is actually cross‑purpose content from one platform to another, right.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18480             And, so, while on one hand where they're pointing to this diversity; on the other hand they're trying to take it away as they're working to build these larger economies of scale, right.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18481             What we need to do then is find ways, I mean, I would hope that where this multiplicity of channels really represents a multiplicity of perspectives on the world, right.  So, it will cut down on that kind of cross‑purposing of material, particularly across these different platforms in order to promote that range of perspectives.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18482             Does that make sense?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18483             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  And the other ownerships, it looks like we have three elements of ownership, public, private and community, and your point being we should make sure that they are all properly funded because they each play a different role in the system of...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18484             MR. SKINNER:  Well, certainly it doesn't mean today ‑‑ certainly we've seen that; haven't we, you know, with I think these people that have come and spoken about the community broadcasting have made particularly good points and poignant points and that's one area of the system as a whole that's really been suffering over the years.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18485             And, you know, the Broadcasting Act certainly does allow for those players to be included and it's great legislation in that regard, but the problem is actually finding ways to fund those people and fund those organizations to actually be able to put some content in place.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18486             And there are possibilities to do that, you know, a range of different ways.  I mean, you know, putting in sort of must carry rules, they're to come with subscription, some kind of form of subscription fee, of course, talking about, you know, the benefits policy.  I mean, I'm sure there's a million groups lined up trying to ‑‑ a million different interests lined up trying to get their hands on benefits money.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18487             But certainly spending some of that money on community programming would go a long ‑‑ would go some way, I mean, perhaps even a long way to improving the position of that group, right.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18488             The CBC, again ‑‑ you know, historically the CBC is often asked to improve the range of channels that they offer and often been turned down, right.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18489             So, but I mean the CBC has historically certainly illustrated itself to be one of the most efficient vehicles for turning money into programming in the system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18490             So, to some extent, I think giving them more free reign in the system is some kind of key to developing diverse programming there as well.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18491             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Michel, do you have some questions?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18492             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18493             Mr. Skinner, you are certainly making a big plea for community broadcasting in all of their forms.  Obviously we have, currently we heard today in operation over 140 radio stations that we have a few ‑‑ well, one over‑the‑air community service, but it is my understanding that they are pending application, but you are going much further than that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18494             Now, what has changed between, say, the end of the 80s to today for us to believe that there is a need for more community programming than what is already in the system?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18495             I'm referring, in 1973 the CRTC issued its first FM radio policy, it included the requirement that all FM operators grant half hour of time on a weekly basis for community programming.  It wasn't used at all, and so the Commission after a good 10 years of that policy, well, finally agreed to remove the requirement.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18496             The community programming on cable, one of the reasons in 1997 the Commission revised this long‑standing community television policy is that took, even in major markets, a couple of hours a day were used for the purpose of community programming, so at the end of the day the Commission said to the cable industry, well, if you want to do a local channel then go ahead.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18497             Now, here in your oral presentation you are suggesting that:

                      "A must carry tier of public and community channels..."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18498             And the word channels is plural,

                      "...on the basis service."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18499             What leads you to believe that today there is greater need for community channels or community programming than what were the opportunities a decade ago?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18500             MR. SKINNER:  Well, I think that certainly this concern about community programming has a long history and I think that it was never actually addressed by private broadcasters.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18501             And while, in fact, the community programming policy put ‑‑ or allowed for the possibility of community channels, more community channels, there was never enough revenue or never enough money to actually get many of those organizations off the ground, right.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18502             So, for instance, I mean, when ‑‑ maybe a little anecdote, I'll try and relate it back here ‑‑ but when I was in Vancouver last summer and I was driving around listening to the local radio trying to get some local news, right, FM and, so, every time news would come on I'd turn ‑‑ every time it was on the hour, I'd turn to try and find some news and the only news that I could get was always ‑‑ what was leading on all the stations I was listening to ‑‑ which, of course, were, you know, sort of top 40 kind of rock stations, whatever ‑‑ was actually a story about a transit strike in New York.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18503             Now, there must have been local news that could have been brought forward here, but what we're seeing, of course, is that these stations, right, turning to wire services to pick up news, right, and because it's certainly not in their economic interest, right, to send people out to develop community relations, to develop community news.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18504             So, if that's going to be the case, then who is going to sort of take up the slack to represent the community in the broadcast spectrum, right?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18505             And I think the community channels mandated to the purpose of ‑‑ to the specific purposes of representing community interests, right, of being actually tied to that rather than their primary interest being generating profits for their shareholders, right, those kind of mandated services really hold a great deal of opportunity for bringing that kind of content to the air.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18506             And actually those kinds of services have never been given a really good ‑‑ a really strong try in this country in that they've always been subordinated at one level or another to the interests of private broadcasters, right.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18507             So, there needs to be revenue put into these organizations so that they can actually get out there, attract volunteers, train volunteers, have a core paid staff that can actually work to maintain program schedules and that kind of thing, right.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18508             Putting money in their hands will, I certainly believe it has in other places, generate that kind of community programming.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18509             Up to this point I really don't believe that they've been given that opportunity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18510             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Wasn't that the policy that the CRTC had put in place in the 70s and which lasted until 1997?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18511             MR. SKINNER:  Not really, because that policy actually left control of the community channel and television particularly in the hands of the cable company.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18512             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Because the Broadcasting Act says that the licensees are responsible for the content that they broadcast.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18513             MR. SKINNER:  Okay.  Well, that's something you have to get around.

‑‑‑ Laughter/Rires

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18514             MR. SKINNER:  Maybe it calls for new legislation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18515             I mean, in Quebec, though my knowledge of community broadcasting in Quebec isn't what it might be, but in Quebec I think there is a different kind of relationship there; is there not, and the community television broadcasters do have a sort of ‑‑ or historically anyway, have had separate organizations that have been able to directly fund it, right, to develop programming and then access on air.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18516             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  But they structure themselves independent and in a very different fashion than in English Canada, you are right, and they have been able over the years to secure for themselves some stream of revenues, both from the BDUs on one end ‑‑ one BDU particularly, Videotron ‑‑ to my knowledge Cogeco ‑‑ and also the provincial government.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18517             MR. SKINNER:  Maybe that's what we need in anglophone Canada is to take a lesson from Quebec in that regard, right.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18518             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  In that regard.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18519             Mr. Lithgow, again on your paragraph 10, if we were to get all the statements that you ask the Commission to ‑‑ more specifically that we shall ask them and have them commit through statements rather than ‑‑ but at the end of the day, we are going to have a list of statements and what should we do with them?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18520             MR. SKINNER:  Sorry, I don't understand.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18521             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I am talking to Mr. Lithgow.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18522             MR. SKINNER:  Oh, sorry.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18523             MR. LITHGOW:  I guess I think that the public hearing process would be enriched by making the conversation that may be implicit in them about democracy explicit.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18524             I personally would be fascinated to know how CanWest Global defends their desire for increasing concentration of media and cross‑ownership of licences in terms of ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18525             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Well, you surely have an opportunity to read their application and you surely will be welcome to attend the public hearing.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18526             MR. LITHGOW:  But expressly in terms of their role in Canada's democracy, I mean, because I think that's a very, very different substantive conversation than about stability of markets.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18527             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Sure.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18528             MR. LITHGOW:  Consumer choices, consumer satisfactions, diversity of genres.  I mean, I just think it brings into the conversation different kinds of ideas and principles.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18529             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Well, thank you, Mr. Lithgow.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18530             Thank you, Mr. Skinner.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18531             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, those are our questions for you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18532             Madam Boulet, I think we will take a five‑minute break before doing the last two interveners.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18533             Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1628

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1637

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18534             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Boulet, who is next?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18535             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18536             I would now call the Canadian Library Association to come forward.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18537             I don't believe they are in the room.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18538             We will proceed with the Women in Film and Television.  Ms Sadia Zaman, please, if you could come forward.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18539             Ms Zaman, you have 10 minutes for your presentation when you are ready.

INTERVENTION

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18540             MS ZAMAN:  Thank you so much.  I'm really, really honoured to be here on behalf of our outstanding board of directors and the staff of Women in Film and Television ‑ Toronto.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18541             My name is Sadia Zaman and I'm the very new Executive Director of Women in Film and Television in Toronto.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18542             Women in Film and Television ‑ Toronto, WIFT‑T, is a leading internationally affiliated organization dedicated to the advancement of women and under represented groups in screen‑based industries.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18543             WIFT‑T offers year‑round training and business skills development, networking events and high profile industry awards.  Right now we have about 900 members at every career level in all facets of the industry.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18544             WIFT‑T serves the largest production centre in Canada and one of the largest in North America.  We're also the third largest chapter of Women in Film and Television in the world.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18545             WIFT‑T is committed to the diversity of Canadian women's voices in all screen‑based media.  This means diversity on screen whether you're a Muslim farmer in Saskatchewan or a black business owner in Cape Breton.  Every Canadian woman is entitled to have her experiences reflected in a meaningful way.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18546             It means diversity behind the scenes and that farmer's daughter should be able to bring her prairie roots into the production of her very first television series.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18547             It means diversity of ownership, that black business owner should be able to dream of one day running her own television network.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18548             At 51 per cent of the population, we are an incredibly diverse group and we support all initiatives that give us a more authentic voice.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18549             That authentic voice comes from key content creators who bring diverse backgrounds and life experiences to their work.  They include those of us who view the world through a female lens.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18550             This past July at the WIFT international summit in Toronto, we honoured some fabulous women including three‑time Oscar‑winning editor Thelma Schoonmaker.  She's 70 years old.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18551             At our gala luncheon she told the crowd that everything she had learned about editing she learned from her mother; that is, there is a humanity to her perspective that director Martin Scorsese relies on time and again.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18552             She was thrilled to be sitting at a table with Deepa Mehta, another award recipient.  At that table they continued the tradition of women sharing their knowledge and insights.  They now continue to support each other's work through e‑mail.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18553             I tell you this story, not because all women bring humanity to their work by virtue of their gender, but women do expand the box that we work in.  Few would argue that there is added value to our mere presence in the industry, but that presence is very limited when it comes to positions of real power.  Women continue to dominate clerical positions in every facet of this industry.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18554             In 2004 WIFT‑T published its ground breaking research framework Employment in Canadian Screen‑based Media, A National Profile.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18555             This study shows for the first time in Canadian screen‑based media who's working, how we work and also how prepared we are for a very global future.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18556             Senior and executive management in most areas of screen‑based media industries is still dominated by men.  At our large private broadcasters, women are significantly under representative in senior management, accounting for 28 per cent of these positions.  At CBC Radio Canada women make up 15 per cent of the highest level management.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18557             Women are still under represented in some key creative roles.  For example, they account for just under 10 per cent of directors belonging to the Directors' Guild of Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18558             The numbers for people of colour are dismal.  As of 2001, members of visible minorities represented only 5.6 per cent of the workforce in Canada's large private broadcasters and only 2.2 per cent of senior management positions in this industry.  These numbers include men and women.  The number of people of colour in executive management is virtually non‑existent.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18559             As of 2001, Aboriginal persons made up .8 per cent of the large private broadcaster workforce and 1.3 per cent of workers at CBC Radio Canada and at CBC English television, but Aboriginal people represent 2.6 per cent of the overall workforce.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18560             With some notable exceptions, people with disabilities are under represented in most areas of screen‑based media.  They account for 3.3 per cent of private production company employees, less than their 5.3 per cent share of the workforce.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18561             Then there is the exclusion of entire communities, and here I want to tell you another story.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18562             When I decided I wanted to study journalism my parents were very confused.  No young woman in our community had ever done such a thing.  Being on television was a very strange thing in a community proud of its modesty.  I could imagine myself on the screen only because I was encouraged by a black journalism professor, Rita Devereaux (ph).  There was one brown anchor at one of the television stations, she was Aboriginal, Carol Adams (ph).  Even though she wasn't South Asian, it made a difference in what I could imagine.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18563             It's hard to conceive of something that doesn't exist.  While we've come a long way, how many Canadian young women don't exist in our media culture?  And if they don't exist, can they imagine themselves as part of our media landscape?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18564             This is an important question when we look at who owns our media companies.  It's not consolidation in itself that's the problem, it's the very real possibility of a lack of diversity within that consolidation that concerns us.  After all, we tend to hire those who look like us, have similar life experiences and the same values.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18565             To date only one woman of colour has ever been Vice‑President of a Canadian television network, she's the same woman who was my journalism professor.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18566             It matters who owns it.  Male ownership and male values result in content influenced by male power.  Today women are so blatantly under represented in federal and provincial politics.  You'd think this would be a huge deal in our news media; why isn't it?  Whose perspectives are sought on political issues?  What role does the overwhelming male ownership and management of local and national media play in all this?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18567             In a democracy, the airwaves belong to the people and so many people here today have said that, but equity has not occurred under the present framework.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18568             WIFT‑T believes the present framework could expand to include policy that would better meet the needs of all Canadians.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18569             A Canadian woman who wants to see content relevant to her diversity, culture or from another country where she has an interest can't get it today unless she pays extra for it.  Is there another model for such a service?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18570             Canada has an unprecedented number of newcomers.  We must integrate these skilled professionals quickly because we need them in our workforce.  Perhaps there should be a channel to help newcomers settle and integrate.  Maybe a public health  channel that could help all of us.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18571             Who should provide such services?  Who would?  Would it make a difference if there was specific targets around executive management and ownership in our media industry?  Should there be penalties for those who don't meet those targets?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18572             Should our funding agencies have targets for the four designated groups?  What kind of a regulatory system would allow these services to get licensed?  Should they be mandatory?  Would they be tier 1 or tier 2?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18573             These are important questions with significant policy implications.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18574             Our framework study identified major skill shortages in the areas of business development, marketing, management, finance, legal and operations, the business skills necessary to sustain and grow in this industry.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18575             WIFT‑T's newest training initiative, the business management for media professionals program, was developed in response to those gaps.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18576             WIFT‑T and Schulich School of Business at York University are working together to develop a senior program of courses in business targeted to managers, professionals and entrepreneurs in the film and television industries.  We're now at the pilot stage.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18577             WIFT‑T has also partnered with the Humber School of Media Studies and Information Technology to offer an emerging level certification course for those new to the industry as well as newcomers to Canada with media experience.  The program was launched a couple of weeks ago and the course is already full.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18578             It's our hope that this program will help level the playing field as it is affordable and accessible.  It also allows us to have a pool of candidates trained to run a media business.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18579             The last point WIFT‑T would like to make touches on something that is often unspoken and I have not heard anything about this in the course of the hearings that I have been able to follow, and that is the culture of media.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18580             Women in Film and Television board meetings are held on a Tuesday or Wednesday morning.  Why, because daycare pick‑ups, homework and supper preparation have a real impact in the lives of women in the media.  We recognize that after work meetings are not possible for those of us who begin a second shift after we leave the office.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18581             This policy has also allowed us to recruit board members who otherwise would not even consider joining a board.  Of course, this gives us access to a more diverse pool of expertise.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18582             While this may not seem like a big deal in this room, it matters to women.  The weekday meetings only happen because WIFT‑T is run by women.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18583             We cannot under estimate the impact of tone, tone sets culture.  Even today, while newsroom managers can instantly air satellite phone feeds from the remote corners of the globe, they still struggle to find a creative way to support female reporters who have children.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18584             We've come a long way from the days when media pioneer Dodie Robb (ph) went to work in a building that didn't even have a washroom for women, there are now washrooms, but only woman is the CEO of a broadcasting organization.  What if she retires, is laid off or becomes ill?  That would leave broadcasting with no women CEOs, significantly behind other major Canadian industries.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18585             Many of us thought that the culture of media would somehow have evolved to allow us to juggle the kids, the home, the school and yet another visit to the doctor.  What difference would it make if some of our media companies were run by women, by women of colour, disabled women or Aboriginal women?  No such media company exists.  Could we even imagine it?  WIFT‑T would like our members to be able to do so.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18586             In closing, we are grateful to the Commission for allowing us to speak on the public record about these very important issues.  We have an advisory committee dedicated to diversity and welcome your questions as you move through this process.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18587             Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18588             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for your presentation.  You are the last speaker, not an enviable role.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18589             MS ZAMAN:  No.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18590             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But you have done a wonderful job.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18591             MS ZAMAN:  I hope you didn't all fall asleep.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18592             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, not at all.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18593             You know, a lot of issues that you raise I think the Commission very much agrees with you and identifies that those are issues that need to be addressed.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18594             I am not quite sure specifically what you think the Commission can or should do to help those issues that you raise.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18595             MS ZAMAN:  I start my new job as the Executive Director of Women in Film and Television on October 1st and in terms of actual specific recommendations that we have, that is something that will require a lot of input from my board and we would be happy to submit those to you in writing.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18596             But, having said that, it is very important that we be here today because it is important to put on the public record that there are still huge issues for women in the industry and consolidation, when you're looking at media consolidation, those issues have to be considered.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18597             I call it the other white elephant in the room.  Nobody talks about it, but yet in the washrooms, at all of our conferences, at any place that women gather these issues are at the forefront.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18598             Somebody said earlier today that they couldn't speak about, you know, I think it was Ian Morrison talked about how smaller players were banding together to maybe form alliances or not, and he couldn't speak very much about it and it's very much the same for women who work within the industry, very few will actually challenge the culture that exists because there's very little support, there's very few other women at executive or senior management levels, there are no owners, and I think there's a perception that there is very little support.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18599             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, you certainly have done very well with WIFT‑T.  I mean, I was at your meeting last year and I was absolutely overwhelmed by ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18600             MS ZAMAN:  Oh, thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18601             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ the number of people in the room, the enthusiasm and also, you know, when you are giving out the awards how each company tried to outdo itself in pointing out what they do for women.  So, you have obviously struck a responsive chord, you know.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18602             But my colleague, Rita Cugini, knows much more about the scene than I, so she has some questions for you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18603             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  That's not just because I'm a women.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18604             But not only do we as a Commission share your concerns, you and I also share something else that you raised in your oral presentation and, that is, my family has no idea what I do.  They might have a better idea this week because some of them were actually watching, but we share that as well.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18605             One of the things that you do raise ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18606             MS ZAMAN:  I understand that completely, by the way, because when my mom asked me what I was doing in Ottawa, I explained it to her and she said, oh, that sounds like fun.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18607             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Yes.  And it is, it can be, it can be.        

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18608             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Let's hope she's watching you right now.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18609             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You say that this is an important question when we look at who owns our media companies.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18610             Do you see barriers to women owning media companies in the current system as it exists today?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18611             MS ZAMAN:  I think that until you get women at executive levels in real numbers, and by that I mean also women of colour, I mean disabled women, I mean women in all of our diversity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18612             I get very concerned sometimes because when we say women, people think that we have ‑‑ we have a lot of women in middle management in some areas of the broadcasting universe and a lot of people look at that and say that's enough, but those of us who come outside the traditional mainstream communities need to see much more.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18613             Yes, there are huge barriers and one of the barriers is the culture.  A lot of women will not stay past the middle ‑‑ will not even make it to middle management because the culture does not allow for them to have lives that take into account all the other facets of their lives, like kids and, you know, all of that kind of stuff.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18614             And I raise this because one of the Commission's mandates is to look at editorial diversity.  And having a news background and being trained as a journalist, I can tell you that that ‑‑ there would be a greater chance of that diversity existing if our women actually stayed in the industry and persevered and were able to have a lot more support for women above them, but if there are no women above them, how does that happen?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18615             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  As you know, most broadcasters in this country are subject to the Employment Equity Act.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18616             MS ZAMAN:  Mm‑hmm.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18617             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And an annual report is published that grades all industries, but including broadcasting, and they take into account not just the pure reporting of numbers, but accommodation like you describe it, for example, do they have flexible hours, does an organization provide daycare services for the women in their organizations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18618             Have you had an opportunity to study any of those reports?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18619             MS ZAMAN:  But is there any enforcement mechanism for any of that?  It's fine to report the numbers, but without some real mechanisms with teeth, nothing will change.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18620             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you think that either we implement or perhaps even Employment Equity, that not only do people report on the number of women that are in their organization, but the number of women who are visible minorities as well?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18621             MS ZAMAN:  Mm‑hmm, mm‑hmm.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18622             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Would that be an important step?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18623             MS ZAMAN:  All the designated groups, and especially at the executive management and senior management level.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18624             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You say it matters who owns it.  We know how the W network was started and we know who owns it now.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18625             Do you think that ‑‑ I don't want to pick on that network ‑‑ but do you think that networks like W or networks that have women as their target audience aren't doing a good job at representing women in this country, simply based on ownership?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18626             MS ZAMAN:  I think there's always room for diversity.  I mean, again, with a network owned, that is supposedly for women, where is the diversity within the network?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18627             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And you would say that of ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18628             MS ZAMAN:  Of all networks.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18629             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  ‑‑ of all networks, even those that target women?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18630             MS ZAMAN:  And the diversity of women.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18631             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I wish you had come with answers to the questions on page 6 because we too share those questions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18632             MS ZAMAN:  I wished I had some more answers, but I haven't officially started my job and I pulled this together in the last week by, you know, pretty well as a lone wolf with a couple of board members and until I have a fulsome discussion with my board I would be very hesitant to put something on the public record.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18633             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I understand.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18634             MS ZAMAN:  Especially anything that involved numbers.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18635             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Well then, we've already given you homework and you haven't even started your job yet.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18636             MS ZAMAN:  We'll definitely get back to you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18637             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  These programs that you describe on page 7, are they exclusively for women?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18638             MS ZAMAN:  No.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18639             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  They are not exclusively for women?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18640             MS ZAMAN:  No.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18641             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you have a mandate that a certain number of women who attend these programs should be visible minorities?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18642             MS ZAMAN:  We don't, but it's an interesting thing.  What happens in Toronto especially is that we have quite a diverse pool of students and we are seeing that diversity reflected in the people who are, in fact, trying to get into these programs.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18643             And it also matters who's in the forefront of the organization because that attracts a whole other set of communities and that's, I think, also to our advantage.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18644             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Well, thank you very much.  Thank you for coming this afternoon and good luck on October 1st.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18645             MS ZAMAN:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18646             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You mentioned that you are going to get back to us.  We actually have an announcement regarding that and we are willing to give you a bit more time.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18647             So, Madam Boulet, do you want to read it out, please.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18648             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18649             In preparation for the diversity of voices hearing, the CRTC commissioned four reports.  Three of these reports have been submitted as part of the public record.  They are studies prepared by Peter Miller, Michael McEwen, and research conducted by Decima Research Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18650             The fourth report prepared by Étude Économique Conseil has now been received by the CRTC.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18651             In the spirit of procedural fairness and full disclosure, the CRTC is submitting this report as part of the public record.  The document is available on the CRTC website.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18652             The deadline for final written comments to address issues raised during the hearing and offer comment on the study by Étude Économique Conseil has, therefore, been extended from October 5 to October 12.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18653             Finally, for the record, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to indicate that all written presentations made at the hearing will be added to the public record of these proceedings and will be available on our website next week.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18654             And this concludes the agenda for this proceeding.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18655             Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 18656             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for coming.

‑‑‑ Whereupon the hearing concluded at 1658 /

    L'audience se termine à 1658

                      REPORTERS

 

 

______________________        ______________________

Johanne Morin                     Monique Mahoney

 

 

______________________        ______________________

Sue Villeneuve                    Madeleine Matte

 

 

______________________

Beverley Dillabough