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Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

              TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

                       SUBJECT/SUJET:

 

 

 

VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

 

Conference Centre                     Centre de conférences

Pontiac Room                          Salle Pontiac

Portage IV                            Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage              140, promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                      Gatineau (Québec)

 

May 2, 2007                           Le 2 mai 2007

 

 


 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.


               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

 

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

                 Transcript / Transcription

 

 

 

            VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

            PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Michel Arpin                      Chairperson / Président

Barbara Cram                      Commissioner / Conseillère

Andrée Noël                       Commissioner / Conseillère

 

 

 

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Jade Roy                          Secretary / Secrétaire

Francine Laurier-Guy              Hearing Manager /

Gérante de l'audience

Valérie Lagacé                    Legal Counsel /

Conseillère juridique

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

 

Conference Centre                 Centre de conférences

Pontiac Room                      Salle Pontiac

Portage IV                        Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage          140, promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                  Gatineau (Québec)

 

May 2, 2007                       Le 2 mai 2007

 


                           - iv -

 

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE III

 

 

INTERVENTION PAR / INTERVENTION BY:

 

Aboriginal Voices Radio                           711 / 4729

 

Richard Higgins Noël                              734 / 4868

 

Ville de Vaudreuil-Dorion                         739 / 4895

 

CLD Vaudreuil-Soulanges                           747 / 4933

 

Conseil Culturel de Vaudreuil-Soulanges           753 / 4967

 

Communications Six Doigts                         771 / 5094

 

André Turcot                                      782 / 5159

 

AFFIRMED:  GURINDER SINGH

AFFIRMED:  DALJIT SINGH KALKAT

 

Gurinder Singh                                    784 / 5180

 

Assemblée Parole et Actes                         797 / 5252

 

 

 


                           - v -

 

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE IV

 

 

RÉPLIQUE PAR / REPLY BY:

 

Communications Média Évangélique                  802 / 5284

 

AFFIRMED:  JASVIR SINGH SANDHU

 

Radio Humsafar                                    806 / 5318

 

S.S. TV Inc.                                      820 / 5432

 

International Harvesters for Christ               834 / 5521

  Evangelistic Association

 

Neeti P. Ray                                      839 / 5546

 

René Ferron                                       844 / 5570

 

Hellenic canadien câble radio                     852 / 5619

 

Yves Sauvé                                        861 / 5676

 

 

 


                           - vi -

 

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE I

 

 

PRÉSENTATION PAR / PRESENTATION BY:

 

Lee David Weston                                  876 / 5771

 

 

 

PHASE II

 

 

INTERVENTION PAR / INTERVENTION BY:

 

Rogers Cable Communications                       936 / 6223

 

 

 

PHASE III

 

 

RÉPLIQUE PAR / REPLY BY:

 

Lee David Weston                                  948 / 6296


                 Gatineau, Quebec / Gatineau (Québec)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Wednesday, May 2, 2007

    at 0835 / L'audience débute le mercredi

    2 mai 2007 à 08 h 35

LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 47174717             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning.  This morning we will first hear AVR ‑‑ good morning, gentlemen.  Then following the AVR presentation, we will move to Phase III of the public hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14718             It is at the request of the Commission that Aboriginal Voices Radio is appearing at this public hearing.  The Commission has requested their presence in order to clarify some technical questions arising from the applications that are requesting the use of the 106.3 MHz frequency.  For the same reason, the Commission has requested the attendance of the engineers of the applicants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14719             AVR is currently operating a radio station in Montréal using the frequency 106.7 MHz, Channel 294A.  AVR has an authority to operate with a maximum effective radiated power of 1200 watts, average ERP of 320 watts.  AVR is currently operating on a temporary authority from a temporary site with an ERP of 16 watts.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14720             The frequency 106.3 MHz is considered to be second adjacent frequency to the one used by AVR.  Operation of a second adjacent frequency could present some technical problems.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14721             As well, it is noted that some broadcasters when faced with significant interference applied to the Commission and to the Department of Industry for an increase in effective radiated power in order to minimize interference zones.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14722             In this case, because the frequencies are second adjacent, if one broadcaster is successful in increasing the effective radiated power, he will simply increase the interference zone of the broadcaster using the second adjacent frequency.  The latter listeners will have increased reception problems, thus an increase in ERP for one broadcaster creates problems for the other.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14723             As well, in offering services to their listeners, it is not known what plans broadcasters have, if any, to address issues related to interference of listeners simply not receiving the intended programming.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14724             AVR, as I said earlier, is currently operating from a temporary site.  Considering that in this case operation of a second adjacent frequency requires site collocation, it is not known whether AVR and the applicants have an agreement in place to collation on a permanent site.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14725             In December 2006, the Commission, through broadcasting Public Notice CRTC 2006‑160, revised its policy on digital radio broadcasting and provided broadcasters with the opportunity to implement radio stations using In‑band on‑channel, also known as IBOC or HD radio technology.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14726             This is subject to approval by the Department of Industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14727             Should IBOC be implemented, stations operating on a second adjacent frequency will suffer additional interference and a higher percentage of receivers will be unable to receive the signal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14728             Gentlemen, welcome.  I understand that you have prepared some introductory remarks, so we will hear them and then I will follow with some questions.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 14729             MR. HILL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14730             Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission and staff.  It is a pleasure for us to be here with you again.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14731             For the record, my name is Jamie Hill and I am the CEO of Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14732             With me today, on my right, are Roy Hennessey, CEO of AVR; on my left, Bob Wood, long‑time consultant to AVR; on his left, Jim Moltner, consulting engineer to AVR; and on my far right Mr. Luc Lainé, who is a member of the Board of Directors of AVR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14733             As you know, AVR is not an applicant in this process, nor did it file an intervention.  It did, however, receive a request from the Commission last week, from the Panel, to appear today to discuss certain technical issues relating to several of the applications for new FM radio stations in Montréal.  We are pleased to respond to your questions in that regard following our presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14734             We also think it might be helpful to place in context AVR's Montréal situation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14735             On July 2, 2003 the CRTC approved an application by AVR for a licence to operate a station in Montréal.  However, the Commission denied AVR's request for the use of 100.1 MHz, Channel 261A, and directed AVR to submit an amendment proposing the use of another frequency.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14736             AVR subsequently submitted an application proposing the use of 106.7, which was second adjacent to the frequency being applied for by International Harvesters for Christ Evangelistic Association Inc. or IH.  Both parties agreed to enter into the agreement with the intent of cost‑sharing on the antenna system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14737             AVR further agreed to enter into this arrangement as a cost‑saving measure, since rent from IH for use of the tower would help to subsidize AVR's rent.  As it turned out, the Commission denied IH's application to carry on the operation of a radio broadcast transmitting undertaking at 106.3, but it did approve AVR as an amendment to use 106.7.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14738             Last summer, AVR agreed to provide a waiver to IH and other applicants applying for the second adjacent 106.3.  Although the waivers in question were never signed, AVR wishes to repeat for the record its willingness, assuming the CRTC is in agreement with the plan and subject to the comments that follow, to provide such a waiver to a successful applicant for 106.3 in Montréal should you see fit to grant a licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14739             That said, AVR has carefully read the Commission's letter of April 25, 2007 which invited it to appear here today.  AVR has no desire to cause any difficulties in terms of the Commission's digital radio transitioning policies by creating a precedent relating to second adjacencies if that is not the Commission's wish.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14740             As it stands, if the Commission were to license one of the applicants proposing to use 106.3, AVR's waiver currently makes no provision for remedial measures that the successful applicant would have to carry out if interference problems were to arise, nor does it contain any provision for a dispute mechanism to resolve such matters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14741             Upon reflection, it occurs to AVR that if there were to be complaints relating to interference, it could pose an irritant down the road for the Commission, as well as for the parties, as listeners would well target the CRTC with their complaints.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14742             For that reason, and in light of the Commission's letter, AVR has a solution to recommend.  While we do not anticipate any difficulties, and while we wish to continue to provide the waiver as previously indicated, we would respectfully request that this could be solved through the Commission's licensing process.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14743             We believe the Commission should impose a condition of licence on a successful applicant to 106.3 that indicates the following:  If the new entrant cannot resolve to AVR's satisfaction any technical issues relating to the reception of AVR's second adjacent signal, whether an IBOC or a conventional mode, the successful applicant will agree to search for another frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14744             The Commission should require that an agreement with respect to the use of a second adjacent signal should be entered into between AVR and a successful applicant in that regard.  This approach would allow the Commission to proceed with licensing at this hearing as gazetted, but yet would offer the Commission and AVR some protection in the case of possible unanticipated interference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14745             We would be pleased to respond to any questions you might have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14746             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Hill.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14747             I will direct the questions you, but at your convenience you may ask anyone in your group to answer the question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14748             My first question has to do with, obviously, as we have already said, you are currently on a temporary site.  Could you tell us what are your plans to find out and if you have already come to some agreement to find a more permanent site?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14749             MR. HILL:  Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask Bob Wood to respond to that first.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14750             MR. WOOD:  Mr. Chairman, we are in negotiation right now with McGill Laurentian to utilize the rooftop at the Stock Exchange Tower in Montréal.  That negotiation has been going on now for at least six months.  We are very close to the completion of that negotiation.  We actually hope that the agreement can be signed within the next two weeks.  We are cleaning up a few minor details, but we are very confident that that deal will be completed very shortly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14751             THE CHAIRPERSON:  When do you think you will be moving from your current site?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14752             MR. WOOD:  The engineers have indicated that the first step, once the deal is in place, is that an existing tower on the rooftop owned by Rogers has to be taken down and then our tower would go up in its place.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14753             So assuming we can get the approvals from the City of Montréal to do that quickly, I would say it would be within ‑‑ the engineers would say it would be within 90 to 120 days after that; so probably September 1.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14754             THE CHAIRPERSON:  At the end of the summer or early fall you think you will be transmitting from your definitive site?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14755             MR. WOOD:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14756             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Obviously if the agreement with McGill Laurentian is finally signed and agreed by all parties.  That is an obvious issue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14757             Mr. Moltner has attended the hearing for the last two days so he is quite aware of the plans of all the applicants for the frequency, who have said that they will be collocating with you, International Harvester being one, and the second one being Mr. Neeti.  And two others are ‑‑ well, one is applying for Vaudreuil‑Dorion and the other one, who also is applying in Montréal, is looking at a site on Mount Royal, on a tower owned by Bell on the top of Mount Royal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14758             As I said in my introductory remarks and what engineers have been telling me, it is a case of second adjacent could allow the collocation.  It seems to be working because it has been implemented somewhere else.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14759             I don't know what your views are regarding the problems that could occur if they are not collocated, since we have two applicants who are planning.  Obviously one is planning to implement its infrastructure outside the City of Montréal.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14760             MR. MOLTNER:  The applicant for Vaudreuil‑Dorion should not be considered anything unconventional as far as second adjacent goes because their transmitter site is outside of AVR's coverage contours.  So it is a standard application in terms of Industry Canada rules.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14761             The other applicant, Canadian Hellenic, I believe is proposing to locate on the Bell tower on Mount Royal.  AVR actually did look at that tower.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14762             Montréal is kind of a unique situation in that if you are not on Mount Royal, particularly on the CBC site, you are going to have coverage problems somewhere due to the fact that there is a big bump in the middle of the city.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14763             The Bell tower is somewhat west on Mount Royal and therefore we expect there would be some shadowing in the downtown from that site.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14764             In addition, the major protection for the 106.3 frequency, as well as 106.7, is toward Saint‑Hyacinthe, which I'm sure was dear to your heart at one point, Mr. Chairman, and therefore the power has to be pulled back drastically in that direction.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14765             Therefore, we feel that from the Bell tower on Mount Royal coverage in the downtown core will suffer.  That is why we looked for an alternative site, which was the 800 Victoria Square site.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14766             From that site we believe the coverage into downtown will be much better.  There will be some shadowing, however, north of the mountain obviously.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14767             So it is a trade‑off and it is a case of one site is 51 percent and the other site is 49 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14768             However, to answer your question specifically, the waiver which AVR gave to all the applicants stated that the 106.3 applicant must be collocated with AVR at a site which is at AVR's discretion.  So I believe that if the licence is awarded to Canadian Hellenic, we will have to negotiate collocating on the Victoria site with them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14769             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So that is the position that AVR is taking.  Obviously that is not the plan that CHCR filed with both Industry Canada and with the CRTC.  As our coverage maps are showing, they are located on the Bell tower.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14770             So I am asking you, Mr. Moltner, in your capacity as engineer for AVR in this instance, because I understand that you also are the engineer for International Harvester.  But in your capacity as consultant to AVR, we were told yesterday by the engineer for CHCR that not collocating will also work well.  They made the argument that they were not collocating with the CBC, which is using the frequency 104.7, and they are on 105.1 out of the same tower.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14771             So what is your professional advice to them?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14772             MR. MOLTNER:  Well, like I said, the way it stands now is the waiver was provided on the basis of collocating at AVR's discretion.  Non‑collated second adjacents do work as well.  We have them all over the country.  Given that they are proposing to collocate in a park when there is very little population, it is very possible that it would work in terms of not causing interference with AVR.  There is a greater possibility that AVR would cause interference to them since AVR is located in a very populated area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14773             So while I'm not saying it's okay, it is at AVR's discretion.  But I can see them allowing Canadian Hellenic to locate on the Mount Royal site on the condition that they do not cause interference to AVR and they accept whatever interference they get due to the fact that they decided not to collocate.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14774             MR. WOOD:  Mr. Chairman, if I could add to that, I think this is a very complex matter and it simply underlines why it would be helpful if the Commission would be kind enough to consider a condition of licence that any applicant licensed on the second adjacent to AVR be required to enter into a negotiation with us to ensure that if there is ‑‑ which is not expected, but if there is interference to AVR or any problem whatsoever, that they will take remedial measures right up to and including moving to another frequency if necessary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14775             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Wood.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14776             Yesterday we also had a discussion regarding interference to some types of receivers.  I know that you, yourself, made some comments on behalf of clients that you had yesterday that the level of interference on the less expensive type of receivers was somehow minimal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14777             Could you elaborate more on that topic?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14778             MR. MOLTNER:  Well, based on the results of all the receiver tests I have seen, which generally cover the full gamut of receivers available, from the very cheapest to the most expensive, even on the cheapest receivers the protection ratios are such that a collocated second adjacent should work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14779             I don't know if that answers your question.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14780             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you had listeners that were complaining that they were not able to get your signal because of interference on their receivers, have you thought about the mechanism of how to help them whatsoever?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14781             MR. MOLTNER:  Well, the mechanism is pretty standard because, as I believe I said yesterday, this is not only a second adjacent phenomenon, it is also a third adjacent and a fourth adjacent phenomenon.  The very cheapest receivers which happened to be located very close to the transmitting site can be overloaded, it is true.  It happens all the time when people sign on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14782             The general way to address it is to just do a public relations thing where you visit the person.  If their antenna is oriented improperly or something, you help them with that, and if ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14783             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sometimes it is only moving the receiver around?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14784             MR. MOLTNER:  You can move the receiver by one foot and it fixes it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14785             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, exactly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14786             MR. MOLTNER:  If that doesn't work, you have made a deal with Best Buy and you provide them with a better receiver.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14787             We do it every time we sign on with a station, whether there is a second adjacent or a third adjacent or even no adjacents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14788             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  Is AVR ready to make such a commitment?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14789             MR. WOOD:  I think that AVR would be prepared to, Mr. Chairman, but we wouldn't see that necessarily as our responsibility.  If we sign on, we are signed on.  If we create a problem by signing on, we certainly would make that commitment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14790             But indeed if there is a problem created to us, that should be the obligation of the new entrant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14791             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for the answer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14792             Finally, we also had some discussion regarding IBOC and the implementation of IBOC on second adjacent signal.  If down the road IBOC becomes also a Canadian standard and is widely implemented across land, we understand that IBOC implementation for second adjacent services could be or are problematic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14793             Do you have any specific views about IBOC implementation, on the one hand, and the plans that AVR may have down the road to go to IBOC?


LISTNUM 1 \l 14794             MR. MOLTNER:  I will take the interference part, and as far as future plans I guess ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14795             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Leave it to the gentlemen of AVR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14796             MR. MOLTNER:  Leave it to the planners, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14797             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14798             MR. MOLTNER:  From the test results I have seen which, which first of all are the CBC tests which they did on IBOC last summer, the protection ratios between two second adjacent stations, both running an IBOC or just one running IBOC, are very similar to the protection ratios between two second adjacent stations simply running analog.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14799             Therefore, if the collocated analog works, the collocated IBOC should also work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14800             I have also just recently reviewed some tests done in the U.S. and they are even painting a rosier picture in that the protection ratios can be much relaxed relative to what the current Canadian standards are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14801             So to answer your question, I believe that two stations running IBOC can co‑exist.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14802             And if there is a problem, you have to understand that the IBOC technology in theory puts all of the digital energy in the first adjacent channel.  In theory, there should be no interference in the second adjacent channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14803             Of course, that is theory and in reality things aren't perfect and there is always a little bit of spillover.  But what I'm saying is that with additional filtering or what have you at the source, any such problem I believe could be solved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14804             MR. WOOD:  Mr. Chairman, beyond the technical part of it, we entered into the second adjacent agreement as a practical matter.  It was a way for us to help subsidize the rental and other costs in establishing in Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14805             The IBOC matter is a bit of a moot point with us because we think it might be a while yet before IBOC is introduced, if it is introduced.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14806             Second, we are not sure, in any event, that IBOC will ever become a practical reality and broadcasting in Canada.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14807             I go back to the days of AM stereo.  I was with CHUM at that time.  I was the National Program Director and then General Manager of the CHUM stations at that time.  We were the first station in Canada to adopt AM stereo.  Many broadcasters in the country installed AM stereo equipment, but the broadcasters did not come together in a consolidated effort to market properly AM stereo to the consumer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14808             As a result, it went nowhere.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14809             So if the broadcasters now in the country don't do anything to promote IBOC properly, I don't think that there is a very good chance that it will become a practical, ongoing, widespread, actively accepted opportunity for listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14810             Mr. Hennessy can add to that comment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14811             MR. HENNESSY:  The period of about three years prior to becoming associated with AVR, my agency, Hennessy & Bray Communications in Toronto, was the marketing arm of what was called DRRI, Digital Radio Rollout Inc.  Am I bringing back memories?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14812             We worked for three years quite energetically and enthusiastically about introducing DAB.  We negotiated ‑‑ we were part of the negotiation and planning with General Motors for the rollout of vehicles with GM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14813             We dealt with manufacturers in England, coordinated a visit from Taiwanese to Toronto to meet with Radio Shack and we worked with Radio Shack for an extended period of time to finally get receivers into the country.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14814             It was a struggle to get to that point.  All the while we were watching what was happening in England in particular and the rapid adoption of DAB there.  The striking difference between the two was that it was unlimited content allowed in Great Britain as opposed to here where we were limited to 14 hours a week of unique programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14815             That combined with, as Bob pointed out, a cautiousness on the part of the existing broadcasters to move forward and a reluctance to really commit significant resources ‑‑ because it would take something significant to address public attitude, and this is before iPods ‑‑ it was just an unsuccessful venture taking it forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14816             Although it is there today, little attention is paid to it and no one that I know of is predicting its sudden resurgence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14817             We view IBOC in the same cautious manner.  It is interesting.  It obviously would offer potential with similar to SCMO opportunities, perhaps better quality.  All of these things are what ifs.  The big thing is will it move forward and I have seen nothing at this point to convince me that it will be more than what DAB has been, an AM stereo in the past.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14818             MR. WOOD:  I think also, as a general matter, the second adjacent frequencies can be used to allow new voices to be heard in Canadian broadcasting.  If we become preoccupied with the potential problem of IBOC to the detriment of new voices, we don't think that that is necessarily the best way to go.  We think the best way to go is to liberate spectrum so that new voices can be heard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14819             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14820             Mr. French.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14821             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I would just like to recapitulate, just to be absolutely clear, what I understand to be AVR's position with respect to the only applicant who chooses to site an antenna within your coverage area but not co‑locate it with yourselves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14822             The position is that you are not sufficiently certain or desirous of blocking the possibility of a new signal, you are not sufficiently certain that there will be a difficulty that you wish to rule that possibility out completely, notwithstanding the fact that there will be no subsidy to AVR because there will be no co‑location.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14823             Your position is that with respect to that broadcaster that if that broadcaster creates a problem for your signal, that broadcaster will be obliged to make the technical adjustments necessary to correct that, and if you create a problem for that broadcaster's signal, that is not your problem, that is the problem of the other broadcaster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14824             Is that a fair way of stating your position?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14825             MR. WOOD:  We think that is a fair statement, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14826             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14827             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Legal counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14828             MS LAGACÉ:  Yes, I want you to clarify if you could whether the condition of licence would be a condition of licence on an ongoing basis or actually a condition for approval of the licence of a new entrant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14829             MR. WOOD:  Could you repeat that, please?  Sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14830             MS LAGACÉ:  I would just want you to clarify whether you see this condition of licence that you are proposing as a condition for the Commission approving the licence or issuing the licence or if you see that condition applicable to the seven years of the licence to be issued.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14831             MR. WOOD:  I think as a condition for approving the licence.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14832             MS LAGACÉ:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14833             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Gentlemen, thank you very much for coming to meet ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14834             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Excuse me.  I don't think that you have got the answer to your question.  Look what it says:

"The Commission should impose a condition of licence (on a successful applicant)."

LISTNUM 1 \l 14835             Therefore, it is not required for approval, it is actually a condition of licence that we are being asked to include in the licence should we choose on other grounds to issue it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14836             MS LAGACÉ:  Maybe I can clarify because there is a possibility for the Commission to impose conditions to the issuance of a licence, so the service can be authorized but for the licence to be issued there could be a condition such as this one and there could be also a condition attached to the operation of the licence once the station is on air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14837             So I just want to know which one of those that you are requiring or you see the Commission imposing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14838             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And which is ongoing for ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 14839             MS LAGACÉ:  The life of the licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14840             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ for the life of the licence and it could even be renewed if need be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14841             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  That means in fact that if you say it is a prelude to the issuing of the licence, it is not ongoing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14842             I only make that point to you so you can give an answer that we are all clear on what it means.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14843             MR. WOOD:  Thank you for clarifying that, Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14844             We obviously ‑‑ we hope that it would be ongoing and we actually are hoping that the Commission, given the importance of AVR, that the Commission will help to protect AVR by ensuring that whatever results from your deliberations in this process that AVR will be protected in light of any eventuality that might arise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14845             MS LAGACÉ:  Then I have a subsidiary question that follows this one.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14846             My question is:  What would you see happening during the period when an application is filed by a licensee to change a frequency and the time that the Commission can deal with the application and dispose of it?  Do you see that the operation of this new station would continue during that time?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14847             MR. WOOD:  I think that that would be something that we would have to discuss with the applicant in the negotiation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14848             My sense is that if it wasn't severe then they should be allowed to continue but if it is severe they should be required to go dark if necessary until they go through the process for a new frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14849             MS LAGACÉ:  Those are my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14850             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, gentlemen, Mr. Hill, Mr. Hennessy, Mr. Wood, Mr. Moltner, Mr. Lainé, thank you very much for coming this morning at the request of the Commission.  It was very appreciated.  It helps us in our deliberations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14851             We will now move to the third part of this public hearing.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14852             MR. HILL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14853             LA SECRÉTAIRE : Nous procéderons maintenant à la Phase III, où les autres parties interviennent dans l'ordre énoncé sur l'ordre du jour, afin de présenter leur intervention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14854             Je demanderais aux quatre prochains intervenants de s'avancer à la table de présentation :

LISTNUM 1 \l 14855             ‑ M. Richard Higgins Noël;

LISTNUM 1 \l 14856             ‑ la Ville de Vaudreuil‑Dorion;


LISTNUM 1 \l 14857             ‑ le CLD de Vaudreuil‑Soulanges; et

LISTNUM 1 \l 14858             ‑ le Conseil Culturel de Vaudreuil‑Soulanges.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14859             CONSEILLER FRENCH : Madame la secrétaire, pouvez‑vous rappeler à l'auditoire qu'il faut fermer les mobiles?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14860             LA SECRÉTAIRE : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14861             Lorsque vous êtes dans la salle d'audience, on vous demande d'éteindre vos téléphones cellulaires, téléavertisseurs et BlackBerry, car ils risquent d'importuner les participants et les membres du Conseil, et ils causent de l'interférence au système de communication utilisé, notamment, par les traducteurs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14862             Nous comptons sur votre collaboration à cet égard durant toute la journée.  Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14863             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Jade, you can repeat it in English.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14864             THE SECRETARY:  When you are in the hearing room, we would ask you to please turn off your cell phones, beepers and BlackBerrys as they are an unwelcome distraction and they cause interference on the internal communication systems used by our translators.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14865             We would appreciate your cooperation in this regard throughout the day.  Thanks.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 14866             LA SECRÉTAIRE : Nous commencerons avec M. Richard Higgins Noël.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14867             S'il vous plaît vous identifier, et vous avez 10 minutes pour votre présentation.  Merci.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 14868             M. NOEL : Alors, Monsieur le président et membres du personnel du CRTC, mon nom est Richard Higgins Noël.  Je me qualifie de professionnel de l'information, presse parlée, presse écrite.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14869             Je vais, donc, brièvement mettre l'accent sur cet aspect, un secteur où j'ai consacré de nombreuses années de ma vie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14870             Je compte plus d'une quarantaine d'années d'expérience dans ce domaine.  La radio constitue un élément très significatif de ma carrière.  Ainsi, j'ai travaillé pour le compte de plusieurs médias électroniques de petite, moyenne et grande taille.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14871             J'estime, donc, être compétent pour émettre des opinions valables en regard du dossier qui nous occupe, opinions soulevées dans un mémoire maintenant entre vos mains, entre les mains du CRTC.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14872             Je m'intéresse depuis longtemps au service radiophonique desservant les différentes régions du Québec.  Comme vous, au fil des ans, j'ai constaté les graves conséquences de la concentration de ces mêmes services entre les mains de grandes entreprises, une situation qui semble vous préoccuper grandement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14873             Comme vous le savez, il reste peu de stations radiophoniques indépendantes sur le territoire québécois, ce qui, à mon avis, est fort déplorable.  Par conséquent, considérant le contexte actuel, je suis heureux d'appuyer la demande faite par M. Yves Sauvé pour un poste de radio qui desservirait Vaudreuil‑Dorion et ses villes sours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14874             Comme bien d'autres citoyens et organismes de la région de Vaudreuil‑Dorion, je déplore vivement l'absence d'une station radiophonique pouvant alimenter ce même territoire.  Malgré le fait que la région soit inondée par plusieurs postes de radio montréalais, il faut reconnaître qu'elle est totalement ignorée par ceux‑ci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14875             Par exemple, les nouvelles locales, propres à Vaudreuil‑Dorion et à ses villes sours, n'existent pas.  En 2007, il s'agit de l'une des rares régions ne possédant pas une station radiophonique.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14876             Nous sommes en présence d'une situation aberrante, surtout en matière de couverture des événements qui surviennent dans cette région.  Un service d'information, comme le prévoit, notamment, la demande de M. Yves Sauvé, viendrait corriger ce grand vide, et cela au profit des municipalités concernées.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14877             Ainsi donc, ce projet de monsieur Sauvé arrive à point, à mon avis.  Sa réalisation permettrait à une population d'être informée sur ce qui se passe régulièrement chez elle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14878             Il suffit de penser, notamment, aux conseils municipaux et aux activités de différents organismes oeuvrant sur le territoire en question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14879             Sur ce plan, comme sur bien d'autres, ces gens sont pénalisés par la situation actuelle.  Dans le présent contexte, ils apprennent par les deux hebdomadaires locaux, des médias qui appartiennent à la même entreprise, certains faits touchant leur région, et cela une semaine après leur avènement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14880             Si j'ai bien compris, le projet de monsieur Sauvé propose un service radiophonique quotidien.  Un journaliste à plein temps couvrirait en semaine l'actualité locale et régionale, ce qui me semble raisonnable, compte tenu de la technologie moderne et de la proximité des municipalités appelées à être desservies.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14881             Je constate également qu'il y aurait en fin de semaine deux surnuméraires, des animateurs polyvalents qui sont familiers aussi avec l'information et qui sont en mesure de faire la lecture des bulletins de nouvelles en ondes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14882             Également, le journaliste qui travaillerait en semaine à temps plein préparerait, en plus de ses tâches habituelles, préparerait, dis‑je, l'agenda du week‑end.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14883             Maintenant, les deux surnuméraires, si on peut les qualifier comme ça, en fin de semaine, s'occuperaient de faire une revue de l'actualité de la semaine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14884             Je note également que la station radiophonique, en appui à ce journaliste, pourrait compter sur des collaborateurs à ce niveau de la couverture des événements.  Mentionnons les agents d'information, les porte‑parole officiels des comités de citoyens et des entreprises, des organismes socioculturels, des services policiers et d'incendie, et caetera, et caetera.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14885             Je ne suis pas surpris de l'intérêt que porte les divers milieux de la région de Vaudreuil‑Dorion à l'endroit du projet de monsieur Sauvé.  Sous la gouvernance de monsieur Sauvé, qui opérerait et administrerait au quotidien la station radiophonique, il m'apparaît que les intérêts de la région de Vaudreuil‑Dorion seraient entre bonnes mains.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14886             Monsieur Sauvé, je l'ai vu à l'ouvre à CKVL Montréal durant plusieurs années.  Il est un homme expérimenté de l'industrie de la radio, un élément déterminant dans ce dossier.  Selon moi, cet homme propose un bel avenir aux résidants de la région.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14887             En conclusion, ce projet est sérieux et crédible.  Pour toutes les raisons invoquées plus tôt, le CRTC poserait un geste concret en faveur des intérêts de ces citoyens en approuvant un projet qui viendrait en quelque sorte satisfaire les besoins criants de la région qu'ils habitent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14888             Je vous remercie de m'avoir entendu et d'avoir pris acte du mémoire que je vous ai déjà soumis au sujet de la demande de M. Yves Sauvé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14889             Monsieur le président et membres du personnel du CRTC, je vous souhaite une bonne réflexion dans ce dossier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14890             LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci, Monsieur Noël.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14891             On va entendre les autres intervenants, et nous aurons des questions après pour vous.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14892             LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14893             Maintenant, je demanderais à la Ville de Vaudreuil‑Dorion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14894             S'il vous plaît, vous identifier, et vous avez 10 minutes pour votre présentation.  Merci.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 14895             M. GABRIELE : Monsieur le président, madame, messieurs les commissaires, membres du personnel du Conseil, mon nom est Raynald Gabriele, maire suppléant et conseiller municipal de la municipalité de Vaudreuil‑Dorion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14896             Je représente, aujourd'hui, le conseil municipal, qui, à l'unanimité, appuie la demande de M. Yves Sauvé pour l'implantation d'une nouvelle station FM commercial à Vaudreuil‑Dorion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14897             La Ville de Vaudreuil‑Dorion, créée le 16 mars 1994, est sise sur les rives de la rivière Outaouais et du lac des Deux‑Montagnes.  Son immense territoire de 73 kilomètres carrés la classe parmi les cinq plus grandes municipalités au Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14898             Issue de la fusion de la Ville de Vaudreuil et de la Ville de Dorion, Vaudreuil‑Dorion est la capitale de la MRC de Vaudreuil‑Soulanges.  Comptant plus de 24 589 habitants, elle regroupe tous les services gouvernementaux et communautaires qui desservent la région.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14899             Vaudreuil‑Dorion dégage une vitalité commerciale et industrielle avec ses centaines de commerces et places d'affaires, centres commerciaux, parcs industriels, sans oublier sa vie culturelle et sportive très intense.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14900             Il nous fait plaisir de souligner que notre ville a proposé sa candidature pour devenir l'hôte des Jeux du Québec en 2010.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14901             Au Québec, Vaudreuil‑Dorion est probablement la ville qui s'apprête à connaître l'essor le plus fulgurant des villes de la région métropolitaine pour les dix prochaines années.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14902             Il est certain que l'arrivée d'une nouvelle station de radio FM tombe à point, au moment où notre région connaît une effervescence sans précédent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14903             Un article du journal * Les Affaires + de mai 2006 a décrit la région de Vaudreuil‑Soulanges comme étant le nouvel eldorado québécois avec une situation économique exceptionnelle et un taux de chômage minime.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14904             Nous nous joignons aujourd'hui à nos villes sours et à tous leurs résidents, à la Chambre de Commerce de Vaudreuil‑Dorion, au CLD, à la MRC de Vaudreuil‑Soulanges, au Regroupement des associations des gens d'affaires, au Conseil culturel de Vaudreuil‑Soulanges, à la Corporation de développement communautaire, à la Commission scolaire des Trois‑Lacs, aux associations de sport amateur, aux organismes culturels, aux artistes et créateurs pour unanimement demander au CRTC d'accorder la fréquence 106,3 FM à Vaudreuil‑Dorion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14905             Notre région, malgré son importance, ne dispose d'aucune station radiophonique.  Aucune station de radio, ni de Montréal, ni de Valleyfield ou d'ailleurs, ne se préoccupe de ce qui se passe vraiment

chez nous.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14906             A part les deux hebdos régionaux, nous constatons que les activités ou événements se déroulant dans notre région, qu'ils soient politiques, économiques, culturels ou communautaires, bénéficient de façon générale d'une couverture médiatique déficiente.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14907             Les campagnes électorales municipales, les séances des conseils municipaux et autres événements d'importance ne sont nullement couverts par les stations de radio qui ne s'intéressent pas à ce qui se vit dans notre région.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14908             Notre secteur a plus que jamais besoin d'une radio locale, d'une radio de proximité, d'une station connectée sur les populations.  Nous désirons une station impliquée dans sa communauté par la diffusion de bulletins de nouvelles et par ses émissions d'affaires publiques locales axées sur les préoccupations du milieu; une station radiophonique qui produit des émissions locales permettant à la population de faire entendre ses opinions et de partager ses idées sur les enjeux locaux et régionaux, ce qui contribuera à renforcer son sentiment d'appartenance et permettra aux citoyens de contribuer davantage à son essor.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14909             C'est exactement ce que propose le requérant, monsieur Yves Sauvé, avec son projet d'implantation d'une nouvelle station de radio FM à Vaudreuil‑Dorion qui créera plusieurs emplois dans notre région.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14910             Nous avons besoin d'une radio en cas d'urgence.  Actuellement, Vaudreuil‑Dorion et ses villes sours ne peuvent compter que sur les médias écrits sur une base hebdomadaire pour informer ses populations.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14911             Notre région ne dispose d'aucun moyen de communication privilégié, d'aucun média local quotidien lorsque les villes ont besoin de rejoindre leurs populations en temps réel, par exemple pour émettre un avis concernant l'eau potable, les diverses opérations de déneigement, des modifications ayant un impact sur la sécurité routière, les mesures d'urgence à réaliser en cas de menace à la santé ou à la sécurité publique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14912             A titre d'exemple, faute de station de radio locale, la ville de Vaudreuil‑Dorion a été contrainte, au cours de l'été 2006, d'utiliser des haut‑parleurs sur une voiture qui a circulé dans les rues de la ville pour informer les citoyens d'un problème d'aqueduc.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14913             Pour les petits, moyens commerçants et gens d'affaires locaux, cette nouvelle station FM représentera un véhicule publicitaire efficace afin de rejoindre leur clientèle, et ce à des coûts accessibles et raisonnables.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14914             Enfin, sur le plan culturel nous comprenons que la nouvelle station projetée s'engage à produire des émissions locales qui viendraient soutenir et encourager les efforts des nombreux artistes et organismes culturels en leur offrant gracieusement du temps d'antenne.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14915             Nous notons aussi que les organismes communautaires de loisirs et de sports de la région pourront bénéficier du support promotionnel de CJVD‑FM.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14916             Alors que Saint‑Jean‑sur‑Richelieu, Saint‑Hyacinthe, Saint‑Jérôme et d'autres villes situées à proximité de Montréal, comme par exemple Saint‑Constant, Longueuil, Châteauguay, possèdent leurs stations de radio locales, nous nous demandons pourquoi Vaudreuil‑Dorion et ses villes sours ne pourraient être desservies par une station radiophonique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14917             Rappelons que d'autres localités au Québec, beaucoup moins populeuses comme Acton Vale, Lac Mégantic, Asbestos, Windsor, Plessisville, peuvent compter sur une station locale.  Pourquoi en serait‑il autrement pour Vaudreuil‑Dorion et ses villes sours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14918             La fréquence 106,3 FM demandée pour Vaudreuil‑Dorion est aussi convoitée par quatre autres requérantes qui désirent ouvrir une station de radio spécialisée à Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14919             Nous rappelons au Conseil que le marché de Montréal est très bien desservi par tout près de 40 stations de radio offrant une diversité de programmation sans égale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14920             Nous sommes en complet désaccord avec la prétention de ces quatre requérantes qui affirment que la fréquence 106,3 FM doit à tout prix être attribuée à Montréal.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14921             Notre région est importante et les résidents de Vaudreuil‑Dorion et ses villes voisines ne sont pas des Montréalais, mais des citoyens à part entière faisant tous partie d'un territoire distinct et différent.  Ils ont le droit de posséder leur station de radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14922             Alors que plusieurs excellentes fréquences AM sont disponibles à Montréal et offrent un bien meilleur rayonnement, pourquoi les requérantes proposent‑elles l'utilisation de la fréquence 106,3 à Montréal, sachant qu'elle est très limitée par contraintes techniques et qu'elle offre un rayonnement très restreint comparativement aux autres stations FM de Montréal?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14923             Pourtant, le CRTC a octroyé récemment à Montréal des permis AM pour des radios spécialisées qui donnent pleine satisfaction à leurs titulaires.  Il s'agit de CJWI‑AM, CJRS‑AM, CHOU‑AM et CJLO‑AM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14924             Par contre, l'utilisation du 106,3 FM à Vaudreuil‑Dorion lui va comme un gant et couvre très bien le territoire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14925             Dans les présentes audiences pour l'attribution de la fréquence 106,3 FM, le CRTC a deux options.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14926             La première, octroyer la fréquence 106,3 FM à Montréal, ce qui aura pour effet d'ajouter une fréquence de plus à Montréal, oui, une goutte d'eau dans l'océan radiophonique de la métropole, ce qui n'ajoutera pas à la diversité, mais qui privera Vaudreuil‑Dorion et les villes environnantes d'une radio à laquelle ils ont droit, c'est ce que nous estimons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14927             La deuxième option, corriger une iniquité, combler un vide immense en attribuant la fréquence 106,3 FM à Vaudreuil‑Dorion, la seule pouvant convenir à ce territoire, et ainsi permettre à une région orpheline desservie par aucune station radiophonique de pouvoir enfin compter sur un premier service de radio locale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14928             Nous soumettons donc respectueusement au Conseil que pour nous c'est définitivement l'heure de la dernière chance pour les populations de notre territoire de posséder enfin notre station de radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14929             Merci de votre attention.  Je serai à votre disposition pour répondre à vos questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14930             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Merci, monsieur Gabriele.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14931             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Maintenant, s'il vous plaît, j'inviterais le CLD Vaudreuil‑Soulanges.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14932             Identifiez‑vous et vous avez dix minutes.  Merci.


INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 14933             M. BOYER:  Bonjour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14934             Monsieur le Président, mesdames, messieurs les Commissaires, membres du personnel du Conseil, bonjour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14935             Mon nom est Luc Boyer.  Je représente le CLD de Vaudreuil‑Soulanges et nous sommes ici aujourd'hui en appui à la demande déposée par monsieur Sauvé pour une nouvelle station de radio FM à Vaudreuil‑Dorion, CJVD‑FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14936             Le CLD a pour mandat d'encourager l'ensemble du développement régional de Vaudreuil‑Soulanges, aussi bien le développement industriel, agricole et social.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14937             Sur le plan économique, le rôle du CLD consiste à favoriser le développement, l'expansion et la pérennité des entreprises du territoire.  Vaudreuil‑Dorion et ses villes sours font partie d'une région orpheline du point de vue de la radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14938             Précisons que Vaudreuil‑Dorion, la capitale de Vaudreuil‑Soulanges, Valleyfield ainsi que Montréal sont trois territoires complètement distincts sur tous les points de vue, que ce soit au niveau industriel et commercial que du point de vue démographique.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14939             Nous entrevoyons enfin la possibilité d'avoir, dans notre région, la station radiophonique locale qui manque à la population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14940             L'Arrivée de CJVD‑FM répondra à un réel besoin puisque nous ne disposons d'aucune station radio pour parler de nous et pour informer la population de ce qui se déroule au quotidien dans notre région, mes collègues l'ont déjà mentionné, à part les deux hebdomadaires régionaux, ni les stations de Montréal, ni la station de Valleyfield ne s'intéresse à ce qui se passe dans la région de Vaudreuil‑Dorion et de Vaudreuil‑Soulanges.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14941             Notre région connaît présentement un essor formidable sur le plan économique au point que le journal * Les Affaires + ‑‑ cela a été mentionné par le maire adjoint de la Ville ‑‑ a qualifié Vaudreuil‑Soulanges d'eldorado québécois.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14942             Cette prospérité économique, elle est en partie due à l'arrivée massive de nouveaux résidents, à titre d'exemple les municipalités de Vaudreuil‑Dorion, de l'Ile‑Perrot, de Saint‑Lazare et de Notre‑Dame‑de‑l'Ile‑Perrot représentent 65 pour cent de la croissance de la MRC et la région a connu une migration si importante que les prévisions démographiques de l'Institut de la statistique du Québec prévues pour 2011 ont été dépassées en 2006.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14943             Donc, de 2001 à 2006, la population a augmenté de 17,9 pour cent, c'est une des plus fortes croissances au Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14944             A ce titre, au cours des dernières années, le nombre de mise en chantier pour le développement résidentiel est passé de 278 en 1996 à plus de 1 400 en 2004 et donc ce nouveau média électronique va permettre à la région de Vaudreuil‑Soulanges de continuer son développement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14945             D'un point de vue économique, à chaque semaine des entreprises frappent à la porte du CLD et montrent de l'intérêt pour investir dans la région.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14946             La MRC de Vaudreuil‑Soulanges compte 26 parcs industriels dont 17 sont situés sur le territoire immédiat de Vaudreuil‑Dorion et ses villes voisines où l'on dénombre plusieurs centres commerciaux et près de 2 000 commerces et places d'affaires.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14947             Le taux de chômage sur notre territoire est parmi les plus bas au Québec, soit quatre virgule pour cent en 2001, alors qu'il atteignait huit pour cent dans l'ensemble du territoire québécois.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14948             Il est important de souligner que le nouveau FM va créer plusieurs emplois durables et que cette station radiophonique locale va bénéficier d'un fort potentiel en termes de revenus publicitaires.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14949             La demande d'un nouveau FM à Vaudreuil‑Dorion correspond aux besoins réels de la région en matière d'information.  On peut penser aux bulletins de nouvelles locales et régionales, aux émissions d'affaires publiques locales traitant des enjeux de la région, sans oublier les nouvelles sportives qui touchent le sport amateur de la jeunesse de Vaudreuil.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14950             D'un point de vue culturel, Vaudreuil‑Dorion et ses villes sours comptent des artistes dans tous les champs d'activités.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14951             Présentement, le milieu culturel de notre région ne dispose d'aucun média électronique quotidien pour en faire la promotion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14952             La nouvelle station FM projetée va venir soutenir et encourager les efforts des artistes et organismes culturels.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14953             A ce sujet, la nouvelle station CJVD‑FM va s'engager à offrir gracieusement à ces organismes du temps d'antenne.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14954             Quant aux marchands, commerçants et gens d'affaires de la région, ils vont pouvoir compter sur une autre alternative pour pouvoir rejoindre leurs clientèles, la radio en l'occurrence, pour annoncer leurs commerces, produits et services, et ce à des coûts correspondant à leurs budgets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14955             La rareté des fréquences FM encore disponibles oblige le CRTC à analyser avec grande précaution les demandes, particulièrement pour la fréquence 106,3 FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14956             Cinq requérantes demandent le 106,3 FM dont quatre concernent des radios spécialisées pour Montréal et une seule pour Vaudreuil‑Dorion afin de dispenser un premier service local.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14957             Chacune des requérantes qui demande la fréquence 106,3 FM pour Montréal ne semble pas réaliser que l'utilisation de la fréquence est désavantageuse pour elle sur plusieurs plans.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14958             Elle est limitée par contraintes techniques et offre un rayonnement très restreint par rapport aux autres stations FM de Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14959             Pour ces stations, il serait plus avantageux et dans l'intérêt de leur auditoire qu'elles choisissent d'opérer sur la bande AM et ainsi permettre à l'utilisation de la station de Vaudreuil‑Dorion d'utiliser la bande FM 106,3.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14960             Considérant que le 106,3 est la seule fréquence disponible pouvant convenir afin d'offrir un premier service local à Vaudreuil‑Dorion, considérant que cette région n'est pas desservie par une station radio, il est dans l'intérêt du public que le CRTC, dans un souci de justice et d'équité, accorde la fréquence 106,3 à Vaudreuil‑Dorion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14961             Nous nous joignons à la Chambre de Commerce de Vaudreuil‑Dorion, à la Ville de Vaudreuil‑Dorion, aux villes sours, aux résidents, à l'Association des gens d'affaires de l'île‑Perrot, à l'Association des gens d'affaires de Saint‑Lazare, à la MRC, au Conseil culturel, à la Corporation de développement communautaire et à la Commission scolaire des Trois‑Lacs ainsi qu'aux artistes de la région pour réclamer une station FM dans la région de Vaudreuil‑Dorion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14962             Je vous remercie de votre attention et je suis à votre disposition pour des questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14963             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Merci, monsieur Boyer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14964             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14965             Maintenant, nous entendrons le Conseil culturel de Vaudreuil‑Soulanges.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14966             S'il vous plaît vous identifier et vous avez dix minutes pour votre présentation.

INTERVENTION


LISTNUM 1 \l 14967             M. PAYANT:  Merci bien, Madame la Secrétaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14968             Je me nomme Robert Payant, président du Conseil culturel de Vaudreuil‑Soulanges.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14969             Monsieur le Président, mesdames, messieurs les Commissaires, membres du personnel du Conseil, je suis président du Conseil culturel de Vaudreuil‑Soulanges, aussi artiste et créateur.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14970             Je réside à Vaudreuil‑Dorion depuis 40 ans.  A mon arrivée, c'était une population de 2 500 habitants et maintenant ça a décuplé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14971             C'est aujourd'hui avec beaucoup d'enthousiasme que le Conseil culturel de Vaudreuil‑Soulanges intervient dans cette audience en appui à la demande d'un nouveau FM à Vaudreuil‑Dorion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14972             Le Conseil culturel est un organisme à but non lucratif qui ouvre depuis plus de six ans dans le secteur de la culture.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14973             Si nous sommes ici aujourd'hui, c'est parce que nous prenons très au sérieux la demande de monsieur Yves Sauvé.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14974             Comme tous ceux qui font partie du milieu culturel et artistique de notre région comme les résidents, comme les villes et tous les organismes sociaux, la Chambre de Commerce, la communauté des affaires, le milieu sportif, le CLD, la MRC et unanimement, je me répète par rapport à mes collègues, mais unanimement ont manifesté leur appui dans leurs nombreuses lettres envoyées au CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14975             Nous sommes conscients que c'est l'heure maintenant d'en arriver, pour notre région, à obtenir au moins un service équivalent à nos régions voisines.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14976             Notre participation à ces audiences a pour but de faire prendre conscience au CRTC de la nécessité de doter enfin la région de Vaudreuil‑Dorion et ses villes sours d'une station de radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14977             Notre intervention aujourd'hui se veut un véritable cri du cour.  Le monde culturel de notre région que je représente ne peut absolument pas compter sur aucune station, ni de Montréal, ni de Valleyfield.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14978             Chez nous, l'offre culturelle est importante et variée.  Laissez‑moi le temps de vous parler des artistes de chez nous.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14979             Il y a des artistes amateurs, créateurs, artisans, comédiens, chanteurs, danseurs, ainsi que des travailleurs culturels, ils se chiffrent au‑delà de 400.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14980             Notre région ne compte pas moins d'une soixantaine d'organismes et d'entreprises culturelles offrant une grande diversité de disciplines.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14981             L'ensemble de ces organismes forme des associations, développe et participe à des projets de toutes sortes et contribue sans cesse par leur dynamisme à enrichir l'offre culturelle régionale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14982             En ce qui a trait à l'écriture, par exemple, à la diffusion d'ouvres littéraires régionales et aux artisans pratiquant de nombreux métiers, il y a là des secteurs qui suscitent un engouement renouvelé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14983             La création en l'an 2000 du Conseil culturel de Vaudreuil‑Soulanges a permis aux artistes et au milieu culturel de notre région de se mobiliser, de s'organiser en partenariat avec les élus afin de promouvoir le développement des arts et de la culture dans la région.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14984             Soulignons la mise sur pied par le Conseil culturel d'un répertoire culturel régional.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14985             Seule ombre au tableau, nous déplorons le fait que notre région, pourtant en pleine croissance comme le mentionnaient mes prédécesseurs, quitte à me répéter ou à répéter des choses, ne peut pas compter sur une station de radio.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14986             Les stations de radio déjà mentionnées, comme celles de Montréal et Valleyfield, ont leur propres spécificités et se limitent à desservir leurs marchés et c'est correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14987             Aucune station, par contre, ne s'intéresse ou ne couvre présentement les nombreux événements culturels et artistiques présentés dans notre région, par exemple les festivals, les spectacles, lancements de disques, lancements de livres, concerts, récitals, vernissages.  Non.  Aucune station de radio ne parle des événements qui ont lieu chez nous.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14988             Dans sa lettre d'appui au projet d'un nouveau FM à Vaudreuil‑Dorion, la Société de la sauvegarde de la mémoire de Félix Leclerc à Vaudreuil‑Dorion ‑‑ parce que Félix Leclerc y a habité plus de 20 ans ‑‑ déclarait le 2 mars dernier : * Depuis nos débuts, nous sommes malheureusement en mesure ‑‑ et cela est partagé par les autres associations à but non lucratif et organismes communautaires du territoire de Vaudreuil‑Dorion ‑‑ de constater que les stations de radio de Montréal et d'ailleurs font la sourde oreille à toutes nos demandes pour la couverture d'événements se déroulant dans notre région.

0940


LISTNUM 1 \l 14989             Nous sommes persuadés que la nouvelle station de radio projetée jouera un rôle important de développement du milieu culturel puisqu'elle contribuera à impliquer et augmenter la participation des artistes, des jeunes, des artisans, des créateurs, les organismes professionnels de la culture d'ici dans les divers projets régionaux.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14990             CJVD‑FM Vaudreuil‑Dorion contribuera à accroître la diffusion et la promotion des activités et des événements culturels.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14991             Sans le concours d'une radio locale, il demeure très difficile pour un organisme comme le nôtre de remplir adéquatement sa mission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14992             Nous notons les efforts significatifs et très importants consentis par la requérante dans sa demande.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14993             Au chapitre du développement du contenu canadien, elle s'engage à verser des montants largement supérieurs à la contribution exigée par le Conseil.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14994             CJVD‑FM s'engage à verser 67 000 dollars en coûts directs et 133 000 dollars en coûts indirects pour la durée de la licence.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14995             L'implication financière de CJVD‑FM pour l'encouragement des talents canadiens est remarquable à plusieurs égards.  Elle se traduit par différentes initiatives à la fois variées et originales : versements de cachets en argent à des artistes se produisant en spectacle; attributions de bourses à des artistes de la relève; des montants d'argent consacrés à des organismes, à des événements culturels et artistiques.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14996             CJVD‑FM Vaudreuil‑Dorion contribuera à l'émergence de nouveaux talents en étant partenaire de Montjoie en chanson et du Festival de folklore québécois de Vaudreuil‑Dorion, deux concours annuels destinés à la relève.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14997             Aussi, c'est avec enthousiasme que le Conseil culturel de Vaudreuil‑Soulanges a accepté de participer à l'émission hebdomadaire * Arts et culture + sur les ondes de CJVD‑FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14998             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Monsieur Payant, j'ai regardé le reste de votre mémoire.  Essentiellement, ce qu'il dit c'est ce que les deux précédents intervenants nous ont dit, c'est que les stations de Montréal, de Valleyfield, il y a des stations à Saint‑Jean, donc si vous me permettez on va passer à la phase d'interrogation, à moins que vous ayez une conclusion plus spécifique.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14999             M. PAYANT:  Je pourrais tout simplement lire la fin, les quelques lignes qui restaient à la fin pour conclure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15000             LE PRÉSIDENT:  D'accord.  Parfait.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15001             M. PAYANT:  Maintenant, pour conclure, à titre de résident et de citoyen qui demeure à Vaudreuil‑Dorion depuis plus de 40 ans, qui désire savoir ce qui se passe dans sa région pour promouvoir, faire une vitrine pour nos artistes et créateur; être informé au quotidien, ce qui n'existe pas, nous voulons, mesdames, messieurs les membres du Conseil du CRTC, une station pour nous afin qu'on ne soit pas mis à l'écart comme le sont souvent les régions, même à proximité de Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15002             Je pense, en terminant, à Saint‑Rémy, une petite municipalité de 2 000 habitants, 3 000 habitants et ils ont leur radio communautaire.  Nous, il me semble qu'on voudrait au moins ça aussi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15003             Merci beaucoup.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15004             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Merci, monsieur Payant.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15005             Je vais adresser mes questions à vous quatre et vous pourrez y répondre, au moins deux d'entre...  Enfin, même monsieur Payant y a fait allusion puisque directement il nous a dit que quand il est arrivé là il y a 40 ans il y avait 2 500 habitants à Vaudreuil‑Dorion, aujourd'hui ça a décuplé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15006             On voit, effectivement, que toute la région est en croissance significative, les données de Statistiques Canada et de Statistiques Québec, comme vous l'avez d'ailleurs dit, se réalisent plus rapidement qu'anticipé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15007             Cette nouvelle croissance de population, elle est essentiellement francophone ou elle est de d'autres groupes ethniques québécois?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15008             M. GABRIELE:  C'est partagé.  Il y a beaucoup de francophones, je dirais que Vaudreuil‑Dorion est à 75 pour cent francophone.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15009             Effectivement, disons que depuis quelques années, ce qu'on dit, il y a un débordement du West Island chez nous.  Alors effectivement, depuis quelques années il y a...

LISTNUM 1 \l 15010             D'ailleurs, c'est pour ça que dans notre revue, notre journal de la ville, * Le Trait d'Union +, on a décidé de le mettre bilingue maintenant parce qu'il y a une certaine demande.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15011             Mais c'est à forte majorité francophone.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15012             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Ces nouveaux arrivants là sont toujours dans une proportion de 25 pour cent anglophones et 75 pour cent francophones?


LISTNUM 1 \l 15013             M. GABRIELE:  Environ.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15014             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Non, bien il n'y a pas de données.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15015             M. GABRIELE:  Statistiques.  C'est sûr qu'il y en a plus qu'avant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15016             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15017             M. GABRIELE:  Effectivement.  Parce que comme j'ai dit, il y a un débordement du West Island, c'est ce qui fait qu'il y a une demande et c'est ce qui fait qu'on a pris la décision, par exemple, l'an passé, comme j'ai dit, de mettre * Le Trait d'Union + bilingue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15018             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Monsieur Sauvé dans sa présentation lundi et vous‑mêmes aujourd'hui nous dites que la communauté est prête à appuyer une station locale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15019             Est‑ce que les commerçants sont prêts à appuyer une station locale?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15020             Je pose la question en ce sens que dans la couronne de Montréal il y avait des stations de radio à Laval, à Saint‑Bruno, à Longueuil, elles ont toutes migré à Montréal parce qu'ils n'avaient pas le soutien financier des commerçants de leurs régions, donc elles se sont toutes déplacés un jour vers Montréal.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15021             M. GABRIELE:  Je pense que monsieur...

LISTNUM 1 \l 15022             Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15023             M. BOYER:  Monsieur le Président, à cette question il y a quelques années je vous aurais répondu non.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15024             Aujourd'hui je vais vous répondre oui pour deux raisons.  La première, c'est que l'ensemble des commerçants, les associations de gens d'affaires, la Chambre de Commerce de Vaudreuil‑Dorion sont en train de prendre conscience que tous ensemble il y a beaucoup de travail à faire, il y a beaucoup de possibilités de collaboration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15025             Récemment, c'est‑à‑dire il y a quelques mois suite à un travail d'un an à peu près, il y a une association de l'ensemble des associations de gens d'affaires qui s'est mise en place, donc ça montre la volonté de synergie de tous les commerçants locaux de la région de Vaudreuil‑Soulanges d'une part.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15026             D'autre part, la croissance économique accélérée est aussi attachée à une croissance commerciale accélérée et une problématique nouvelle pour les commerçants locaux qu'ils n'avaient pas il y a quelques années qui est l'arrivée des gros power centres Wal‑Mart, Best Buy, donc ils commencent à prendre conscience que de rester tout seul dans son coin, ça risque de leur poser un souci et que la publicité et le service à la clientèle et avoir un peu plus pignon sur rue, c'est une problématique qu'ils doivent maintenant considérer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15027             Donc, je pense que oui, il y a le potentiel à ce niveau‑là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15028             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Parce qu'il est connu que ces grandes boîtes, les Wal‑Mart, les Best Buy, ne sont pas des acheteurs de publicité radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15029             M. BOYER:  Effectivement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15030             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Ce sont donc les petits commerçants qui ont à se défendre contre eux qui y voient le potentiel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15031             M. BOYER:  Tout à fait.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15032             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Force est pour nous de concéder parce qu'on a les données financières, mais les stations que vous avez mentionnées comme Valleyfield, Saint‑Jean et Saint‑Hyacinthe ne sont pas rentables.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15033             Elles ne sont peut‑être pas non plus dans la misère extrême, mais, je veux dire, ce sont des situations fragiles, ça demeure des petits marchés.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15034             Donc, monsieur Sauvé, qui est un entrepreneur individuel, qui n'est pas à l'intérieur d'un groupe, que les stations de Saint‑Jean et de Saint‑Hyacinthe aujourd'hui appartiennent toutes les deux à Astral, mais celle de Saint‑Jean jusqu'à l'année dernière appartenait au groupe Corus, donc évidemment ces groupes‑là avaient la capacité de les maintenir, mais monsieur Sauvé est un particulier, alors c'est important qu'il puisse sentir que... et que ça nous assure aussi de savoir qu'à votre avis et les gens qui restent dans la région qui sont des éléments de développement économique, social et culturel dans la région, soyez en mesure de nous donner des assurances qu'il y a un potentiel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15035             M. GABRIELE:  Si je peux intervenir, les autres régions n'ont pas l'essor que nous avons.  Justement, c'est pour ça qu'on trouve que c'est important d'avoir cette station de radio, justement pour le faire‑valoir, je pense que c'est important.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15036             On est en pleine effervescence, alors je pense qu'il y a vraiment un besoin de ce côté‑là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15037             M. BOYER:  Si je peux me permettre, Monsieur le Président, de compléter.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15038             Je pense que du point de vue purement commercial, la station de radio de Vaudreuil va également bénéficier d'une partie des commerces du West Island puisqu'une grande partie de la population de Vaudreuil habite Vaudreuil, va travailler dans le West Island.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15039             Donc ces gens‑là, même s'ils habitent à Vaudreuil, sont, la journée, une clientèle potentielle pour ces commerces‑là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15040             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Parce que, effectivement, c'est une donnée d'ailleurs qui a été préconisée par monsieur Sauvé dans le cadre de l'audience, c'est qu'il y a du naphtage significatif entre Vaudreuil et Montréal, évidemment il faisait la démonstration qu'il y avait très peu de naphtage entre Vaudreuil et Valleyfield mais qu'il y en avait de manière extrêmement significative vers Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15041             A votre connaissance, est‑ce que c'est un naphtage qui va vers le centre‑ville de Montréal ou c'est essentiellement un naphtage dans le West Island?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15042             M. BOYER:  A ma connaissance, il y a une partie qui va effectivement au centre‑ville, la grande plupart ne passe pas Saint‑Laurent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15043             LE PRÉSIDENT:  A Saint‑Laurent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15044             M. BOYER:  Ça va aller au West Island et ça va aller jusque, maximum boulevard Côte‑Vertu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15045             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Là où ils vont travailler chez Bombardier ou chez Hywatt.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15046             M. BOYER:  Exactement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15047             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Ou, évidemment, dans les laboratoires scientifiques le long de...

LISTNUM 1 \l 15048             M. GABRIELE:  Le long de la Transcanadienne.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15049             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Le long de la Transcanadienne.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15050             M. BOYER:  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15051             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Je la connais bien, la géographie, je la fais...

LISTNUM 1 \l 15052             M. GABRIELE:  Vous êtes dans la région, je crois.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15053             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Je reste maintenant à Gatineau, mais je suis Montréalais d'origine, donc la 40, je la connais, la voiture la connaît par cour.

‑‑‑ Rires / Laughters

LISTNUM 1 \l 15054             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Mon collègue, monsieur French, est dans une même situation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15055             Monsieur Noël, je note que vous demeurez à Saint‑Basile.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15056             N. NOEL:  Effectivement, oui, j'habite Saint‑Basile‑le‑Grand depuis 1976.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15057             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Depuis 1976.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15058             N. NOEL:  Oui.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15059             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Vous intervenez au soutien de la demande de monsieur Sauvé.  Évidemment, vous dites que vous connaissez monsieur Sauvé de vos années à CKVL.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15060             N. NOEL:  Oui.  Je l'ai connu à CKVL, oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15061             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Quelle affiliation avez‑vous avec Vaudreuil‑Dorion ou si votre affiliation est plutôt avec monsieur Sauvé?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15062             N. NOEL:  Actuellement, moi je ne fais partie d'aucun groupe comme tel qui sont sur la liste des requérants ou des requérantes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15063             J'interviens ici comme professionnel de l'information et moi c'est l'information qui m'intéresse avant tout.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15064             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Dans le projet de monsieur Sauvé, vous avez trouvé qu'il avait les éléments qui...


LISTNUM 1 \l 15065             N. NOEL:  J'ai trouvé des éléments très positifs.  D'autant plus que le CRTC s'intéresse à la question de la concentration, je pense que ce serait une bonne décision de la part du CRTC d'accorder ce permis‑là à quelqu'un comme monsieur Sauvé, parce qu'il y a quand même des réparations à faire après ces années de concentration de la presse parlée et de la presse écrite, et caetera, donc, ce serait une très bonne décision de votre part d'accorder ce permis‑là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15066             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Cependant, l'expérience du Conseil, et je prends le cas des stations de Saint‑Hyacinthe et de Saint‑Jean pour mentionner que c'est là, elles appartenaient à des particuliers, aujourd'hui elles appartiennent à des grands groupes parce que ces particuliers‑là, un jour, soit insatisfaits de leurs investissements parce que la situation était trop difficile, soit qu'ils ont atteint un âge respectable et ils ont cédé leurs intérêts dans des grands groupes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15067             Ce qui arrive, effectivement, la consolidation, c'est un phénomène, d'ailleurs, qui nous préoccupe, on l'a noté, on va tenir, d'ailleurs, des audiences à l'automne sur la diversité des voies parce que, effectivement, on constate cette consolidation‑là, mais elle s'est faite, cette consolidation‑là, un jour parce qu'il y a eu des vendeurs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15068             Il y avait des acheteurs, et il y a eu aussi des vendeurs.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15069             N. NOEL:  En réponse brièvement à ce que vous venez de mentionner, je connais assez bien la rive‑sud de Montréal, dont Saint‑Jean, Saint‑Hyacinthe, et à mon humble avis, ces deux secteurs‑là ne profitent pas, disons, d'un boom économique comme celui qui existe actuellement à Vaudreuil‑Dorion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15070             Je suis allé à Vaudreuil‑Dorion à quelques reprises et même visuellement il y a toute une différence là.  Sur le plan commercial.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15071             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Monsieur Payant, vous avez parlé des programmes que monsieur Sauvé propose d'assistance aux activités culturelles de la région, vous avez notamment mentionné * Montjoie en chanson +, * Festival de folklore québécois de Vaudreuil +.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15072             Vous‑même qui êtes à la tête du Conseil culturel de Vaudreuil‑Soulanges, est‑ce que vous avez eu des indications de l'intérêt, je peux penser à l'intérêt théorique parce que recevoir de l'aide financière d'un promoteur, c'est toujours intéressant, mais est‑ce que vous avez connaissance de discussions spécifiques que monsieur Sauvé aurait eues avec les responsables de ces divers programmes qui seront susceptibles de bénéficier de son aide?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15073             Voire vous‑même.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15074             M. PAYANT:  Disons que les deux organismes, le Festival de folklore et Montjoie en chanson, ce sont des organismes tous les deux à but non lucratif et ils ont grandement besoin de la part de diffusion pour aller rejoindre les jeunes de la relève.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15075             Je ne sais pas quelles conversations monsieur Sauvé a eues avec ces gens‑là, mais c'est fondé comme besoin, par exemple, ça je peux vous dire ça au niveau culturel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15076             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Au niveau culturel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15077             Oui?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15078             M. GABRIELE:  Je pourrais rajouter, monsieur Payant n'en a pas parlé, mais il y a tout ce qui se passe à la Maison Tressler, par exemple, ça pourrait être diffusé, ça serait un apport fulgurant pour ces organismes‑là parce que c'est difficile de promouvoir et comme on a dit dans nos documents, les hebdos locaux, on dirait que ça ne répond pas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15079             Alors, la radio, je pense que ce serait merveilleux.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15080             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Ça répond le jour où on le reçoit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15081             M. GABRIELE:  Oui, et il faut le lire aussi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15082             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15083             M. GABRIELE:  Alors que la radio les gens, le matin, l'écoutent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15084             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Messieurs, je vous remercie de votre présence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15085             Madame la Secrétaire, passons au groupe suivant.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15086             M. GABRIELE:  Merci beaucoup.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15087             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Bienvenue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15088             M. GABRIELE:  Merci tout le monde.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15089             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15090             Je demanderais maintenant aux deux prochains intervenants de s'avancer à la table de présentation, madame Catherine Novac et Communications Six Doigts.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15091             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Madame Novac n'est pas ici, sauf que nous avons sa présentation papier.  Nous allons l'accepter, elle va être versée à son intervention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15092             Maintenant, Communications Six Doigts, s'il vous plaît, vous présenter et vous avez dix minutes pour votre présentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15093             Merci.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 15094             MS ELMAN:  Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Cram, Commissioner French and the CRTC staff, good morning.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15095             My name is Kayla Elman, owner of communications and consulting company Six Doigts.  The company focus is public relations, media consulting, buying and event management.  My background in media began in 1990, when I started as promotion coordinator at CJAD.  I then moved on to launch the new Quebec radio formats Info690 and 940News.  In 2002, I started work as promotion director at CHOM‑FM to help launch the news show.  For the past year, I have been providing consulting services to 105.1 CKDG, home of MikeFM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15096             When I first came to the radio station, I was unsure about the format and the advertising power.  I quickly came to the realization that Montreal is in need of a multicultural radio station such as CKDG.  Advertisers see results and the community response has completely changed my mind.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15097             I now believe that the combined Mainstream/Ethnic format of CKDG is a format neccessary to have in French, to complement the multicultural communities based in the French language.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15098             I have worked in so‑called "Mainstream radio" for many years, and I walked away a few years ago because I missed the grassroots community feeling that it had when I began my career.  I was feeling that the only reason I was working was to get more advertisers to spend more money.  I didn't feel it was about the listener any more.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15099             When I walked into 105.1, I felt that old feeling, "This place is real".  It had that grassroots community feeling yet, on‑air, its sound was surprisingly polished.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15100             I immediately discovered that the station is run by people who feel like they are family.  I think that, in some ways, it's also run by the listeners and the listeners are just an extension of the family in the office.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15101             I have been at the station more than once when someone just walks off the street to suggest an idea, talk about something that happened in their community, or just say thank you for giving them a voice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15102             Each time, Ms Griffiths or someone else took the time to listen and most of the time the message was conveyed an air.  What everyone else calls "mainstream" on 105.1 MikeFM, I call an extension to the ethnic programming.  Although it broadcasts an adult contemporary format, it leads people to the rest of the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15103             To use a food analogy, Mike is a pizza we all know and easily find, but then it offers up a moussaka.  At first we are a little nervous to taste it, but once we do we love it and we want more.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15104             I personally would have never found this station if it did not have the Mike format in the drive spots.  This format is unlike any other station and it is needed in Montréal.  Montréal is a multicultural city and it needs professional radio voice in French to speak to these communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15105             As an industry professional, I feel that the ethnic community is underserved.  105.1 offers, and I believe 106.3 will offer, quality programming in a professional manner to a variety of different ethnicities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15106             Being in Québec, most immigrants who arrive learn French as their second or third language.  Having a station like 106.3 will offer them the comfort of their own language and their own cultural identity, while at the same time enhancing their knowledge of French and Canadian living.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15107             Advertisers are understanding that reaching their clients in the language they prefer to speak is a good way to promote their business.  My clients have asked me if there was a French equivalent of CKDG.  I believe if there was, they would advertise on both English and French.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15108             I believe that the clients buy into 105.1 and will buy into 106.3 for a few reasons.  They are reaching a new clientele they have been unable to reach elsewhere, and they truly appreciate supporting and marketing to their own ethnic community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15109             Two of my clients have told me that in the past they have steered away from most purely ethnic media.  Once a year they may buy a holiday greeting or give a token buy to support their own community, but with 105.1 they buy first and foremost because they like the professionalism of Mike broadcasting seamlessly with the ethnic programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15110             Second, it works for them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15111             Third, they feel good about supporting their community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15112             The young entrepreneurs with ethnic sounding names are not fully served in just English and French.  They now have a third language to reach their clients.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15113             105.1 is not considered a typical ethnic station.  I see it as a mainstream station with an ethnic flair.  With the Mike format 105.1 has imported professionalism from mainstream which further enhances the ethnic programming.  It brings everything up a notch.  The public and the advertisers see this.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15114             I discovered 105.1 because of Mike.  A friend had heard the station and mentioned it to me.  I tuned in and discovered something so different that it forced me to visit the office and meet with the person who created it, Murray Griffiths.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15115             I will admit I had my reservations at first.  I was used to the cookie‑cutter stations, the ones that are pretty much exactly the same from city to city.  This was so off the mark of what I had always been taught that radio should be.  It went from adult contemporary music to talk, to Greek music, to a variety of different languages.  I was not sure it would work.  I asked myself "is this too eclectic for mainstream commercial radio?"

LISTNUM 1 \l 15116             The more I learned about the station, the more I believed.  Whenever I met someone of Greek, Romanian, Russian, Armenian, Haitian, et cetera, I mentioned the radio station and pretty much everyone knew about it and at some point had tuned in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15117             There are not many negative comments, except that some of them felt there was not enough programming or music for their culture.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15118             I bought advertising for one of my clients.  Still a little sceptical, I only did a four‑week buy.  My client called back and asked to book for another 13 weeks.  He saw a good response from the station and he liked that he was able to identify his new clients, who were referred by 105.1.  The listeners liked to talk about a radio station they felt was for them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15119             Another thing I discovered about the radio station is that non‑ethnics were tuning in and enjoying it.  As an alternative to CHOM, MIX, Q92, they found Mike, but once there they discovered the ethnic portion and truly enjoyed the variety musics and sounds.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15120             A prime example is my father who is of Russian descent.  To be honest, he is a proud daddy and tends to follow me wherever I go, but when I started doing some consulting for 105.1 he tuned in.  The first thing he said was, "What is this crazy station?"  The next day he called again and said, "Did you hear that story about...?  This is an interesting station."

LISTNUM 1 \l 15121             This went on for a few weeks.  He called every couple of days to tell me about something that was said on the station or to ask me where he could find a piece of music he heard.  He was hooked.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15122             He said, "Even though I don't understand everything people are saying since I don't speak most of the ethnic languages, I am enjoying the diversity of the music of the station."


LISTNUM 1 \l 15123             I think the more people who hear this type of format, the more they will love it, just like my father and now many of my peers and my clients.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15124             Having 106.3 run a French equivalent of 105.1 is necessary to reach a larger population.  As we all know, French is a majority language in Montréal and the ethnic communities who speak French as their second language need that voice.  106.3 can give them that voice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15125             My experience from the combined mainstream ethnic programming of Mike has been positive.  I have every reason to believe that the proposed World Beat ethnic French station to hopefully be broadcast on 106.3 will be a viable radio station for my clients to buy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15126             What gave me confidence working with 105.1 is that Marie Griffiths has set standards and raise the bar for ethnic programming.  This being the final commercial FM licence, it would be put to best use with a company that already produces a successful quality commercial product.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15127             Montréal can only benefit by having a French language professional commercial FM ethnic radio station.  On a selfish note, I believe that it will serve the underserved communities and develop the larger ones that my clients want to reach.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15128             Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15129             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms Elman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15130             Commissioner Cram...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15131             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15132             Ms Elman, when you are selling now for Mike, are you finding an opportunity for ‑‑ I am going to call it cross‑selling for ethnic advertisers to be able to cross‑sell into the English portion?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15133             MS ELMAN:  I see it actually in both ways.  As you know, national clients are hard to find for ethnic programming, but we are actually finding some of them are calling us and they call us because of Mike, but end up buying the ethnic stations, realizing that is what they need.  The same thing happens in reverse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15134             So people buy all across the board.  They don't just specific ‑‑ unless of course it is a client who only focuses on one community and that's all they want to reach.  Then they will only buy in that community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15135             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  How much of a sales job do you have to do?  Is it tough to sell?


LISTNUM 1 \l 15136             MS ELMAN:  I am just a consultant with the radio station and I bring some of my clients there and help train the sales reps that come in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15137             It is a tough sell.  We are not like MIX 96 or CHOM where sales reps can sit at the desk and just answer the phone and take calls.  Our sales reps are out on the street a lot.  But it seems to be working and it is successful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15138             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Are there different sales reps for different ethnic groups?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15139             MS ELMAN:  At the moment we do have one sales rep in specific who handles just Greek.  The other sales reps who come and will handle a variety of different cultures.  If they can handle their own culture, that would be great.  So we have different ethnicities of sales reps.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15140             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15141             Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15142             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑Chair French...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15143             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Would you say that there is an untapped potential for advertisers wanting to reach specific ethnic groups in Montréal?


LISTNUM 1 \l 15144             MS ELMAN:  I say yes.  Right now they can go through local newspapers, but for the most part the newspapers that I see are geared towards an older audience and the younger generations who are starting to turn in because of the diversity of the Mike and the different levels of music that we play.  We are probably one of the few places to go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15145             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  So there is, in your view, a growing untapped market.  And that untapped market would represent advertising that is coming newly into the overall advertising buy or is it mostly going to be drained from the ethnic press?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15146             MS ELMAN:  I think it comes a little bit from both.  We have a lot of new clients who are finding us.  The basis of a small radio station like this, the pricing is not abundant so we can find some clients that can't afford to necessarily buy that $800 a week ad in the newspaper; that they can come on radio and spend less than that and have more frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15147             So yes, I do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15148             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15149             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms Elman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15150             The next group, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15151             LA SECRÉTAIRE :  Je demanderais maintenant à Radio Centre‑Ville de presenter leur intervention.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15152             Ils ne sont pas dans la salle.  Je demanderai donc à Hyman Glustein et Fernand Leclair de se présenter.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15153             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Donc, nous continuerons avec M. André Turcot.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15154             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Nous prendrons une pause de quinze minutes, de retour à 10 h 20.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1008 / Suspension à 1008

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1027 / Reprise à 1027

LISTNUM 1 \l 15155             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Madame la Secrétaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15156             LA SECRÉTAIRE :  Donc je vais juste verifier si Radio Centre‑Ville ou Hyman Glustein et Fernand Leclair sont dans la salle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15157             Non.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15158             Donc, j'inviterais M. André Turcot à faire son intervention.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 15159             M. TURCOT :  Bonjour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15160             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Vous avez dix minutes pour votre presentation. Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15161             M. TURCOT :  Ça sera pas long.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15162             Mon nom c'est André Turcot. Je suis propriétaire d'un site de diffusion à St‑Constant et puis, je suis également actionnaire dans C.J.M.S. J'ai eu la surprise récemment d'apprendre qu' il y a une station de radio qui veut s'installer sur mon terrain, puis je ne le savais même pas. Mais il y a pas de place pour une autre station présentement. Ça fait que s'est ce que j'avais à dire. Je penses que c'est S.S. TV qui veut venir chez nous. Et, présentement aussi, on vit une autre experience.  C'est que le Ministère du transport est en train d'exproprier le tiers de la propriété. Ça fait qu'il y a des infrastructures qui vont disparaître également. Ça fait que, c'est ce que je voulais dire aujourd'hui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15163             LE PRÉSIDENT:  M. Turcot, je vous remercis de vous avoir déplacé. Nous n'aurons pas de questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15164             THE SECRETARY:  I would now ask Mr. Gurinder Singh to come to the presentation table.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15165             MR. SINGH:  Mr. Chairperson ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15166             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Could you wait for just a second, please?  Could you give us two minutes, please.  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15167             THE SECRETARY:  Could you please stand up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15168             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Are you both going to testify?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15169             MR. SINGH:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15170             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Then both of you stand up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15171             THE SECRETARY:  Could you just identify yourself for the record, please, before you swear in?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15172             MR. SINGH:  Myself, my name is Gurinder Singh.  I'm from California.  I am one of the last four victims of Radio Humsafar.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15173             MR. KALKAT:  Hi, sir.  My name is Daljit Kalkat.  I am from Montréal.  I am another victim of the fraud and misdeeds of Jasvir Singh Sandhu from Radio Humsafar.

AFFIRMED:  GURINDER SINGH

AFFIRMED:  DALJIT SINGH KALKAT

LISTNUM 1 \l 15174             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  Madame la Secrétaire, est ce qu'on peu juste ...

LISTNUM 1 \l 15175             Your name is?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15176             MR. KALKAT:  Daljit Singh Kalkat.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15177             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Mr. Kalkat, thank you.  (Off microphone)

LISTNUM 1 \l 15178             MR. KALKAT:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15179             THE SECRETARY:  You have 10 minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION


LISTNUM 1 \l 15180             MR. SINGH:  Respected Chairperson and Commissioners and my dear friends, I am feeling privileged and thankful that you invited me to present myself and prove how I have been defrauded by Radio Humsafar.  And I'm here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15181             My name is Gurinder Singh and I am here intervening Radio Humsafar's application 2006‑02145.  I am from 8164 Anastasia Way, El Dorado Hills, Sacramento, California 95762.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15182             My background.  I am a real estate salesperson licensed in California and Nevada for the last five years.  I have a Masters degree in geography from Punjab University and a diploma in business finance from University Berkeley.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15183             In addition to that, I am General Secretary of the Northern Nevada Sikh Society.  I am also copartner with Rishi Bhandal who is also a victim of Radio Humsafar.  They defrauded him as well, along with me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15184             We are very respected people of the society.  In introduction, this letter is regarding the alleged fraudulent solicitation of funds by Dar Singh Sandhu, Jasbeet Sandhu and their cousin, Majit Singh Sandhu of Radio Humsafar of Montréal and San Francisco, California.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15185             Solicitation of investment funds for Radio Humsafar's expansion of Dar Sandhu, Jasbit Sandhu, Majit Sandhu, owners of Radio Humsafar, asked for investment of expansion of their Radio Humsafar.  We didn't know anything about this.  All we knew was that we invest somewhere in that radio station for profit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15186             After taking that money, they said instead of opening those radio stations they duped us, you know.  They also told us, "Oh, we own the AM 1200 in Barrie", but they were just leasing.  So we were all misled on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15187             Right now on the proceedings are under consideration in California.  The police is after them and also there are possibilities of further government agencies looking into it.  If it is a securities fraud how they could figure it out, but here I am basically here requesting that please consider that a person who should be issued a licence for the radio station should have good strong ethics, plus should not have the pattern of behaviour of defrauding not only other people but also their own community people, those people who trust the most.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15188             And they have defrauded me, myself, Gurinder Singh, Rishi Bhandal, and along with that when a newspaper group ran that news in the newspaper.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15189             Then I came to know from Mr. Kalkat that he has been defrauded of over $50,000 and there are five more people in that if you look at that page number 6, and that is Satvir Pabla, Parmjit Saini, Tara Chand Bhatti.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15190             And also I have in this record, even if it is a reference record, he has written his own handwritten agent statement plus the very lousy and unethical contract that was done by Avtar Singh and Jasvir Singh Sandhu.  Both of them, they tried to rip them ‑‑ they already ripped them off for $110,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15191             Now I would like you to go on the page number 3.  That is my explanation to reply of Jasvir Sandhu to the intervention I did back in December because ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15192             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Singh, I understand that this is a civil matter that you have with Mr. Sandhu and your group, and we are not a court to adjudicate on these types of conflicts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15193             Obviously, we are interested in your testimony in regard of the behaviour of Mr. Sandhu as a radio operator and a potential licensee of a broadcast licence to operate in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15194             MR. SINGH:  Mm‑hmm.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15195             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We understand that Mr. Sandhu is currently operating a sub‑carrier in the Montreal carrier and obviously if you have programming expectations or programming concerns about what is currently on air on that SCMO of Mr. Sandhu in Montreal, that is obviously of interest to us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15196             But civil matters to be dealt with by the court of justice will have to remain there until they are either ‑‑ there is a judgment.  Obviously, the Commission will be interested in any judgment whenever this occurs but we will not be able to resolve the problem that you are raising today regarding civil matters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15197             So if you could restrict yourself to matters under the Broadcasting Act and under the policies and regulations set by the CRTC, we would appreciate very much the rest of your testimony.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15198             MR. SINGH:  Okay.  Thanks for reminding me then and I appreciate that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15199             I am here basically to request that please do not issue a licence to a person who has a pattern of behaviour of defrauding other people.  Even though I understand that is a civil matter but there should be some kind of grounds where it should not be overlooked.  That is my main concern.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15200             And I have a person right next to me.  He is also been defrauded by Radio Humsafar and I had already mentioned that in my ‑‑ during my intervention back in December, that those were the people and that is why I am here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15201             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Kalkat, do you want to add anything else?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15202             MR. KALKAT:  Yes, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15203             The reason is, honourable panel, because I worked with Radio Humsafar for three years on a volunteer basis.  There was a program, "Air Kahani" that I ran every Sunday and I used to put in about 7‑8 hours on running the program, just to set it up.  And the thing ‑‑ what happened was that he was running ‑‑ I will give you a little bit of background.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15204             He started taking money from me.  How he did it, because he wanted money for his ‑‑ some project, for the housing project, telling me that in three weeks he will return the money and I had to take the money from the Sikh temple where I have given the money for them to invest to take the loans, okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15205             And what happened was that that money was not returned in three weeks and he defrauded me almost for $7,000.  And during that time when I was working ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 15206             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And he used the airwaves to collect that money or he solicited various listeners to give him that money or is it you that was ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15207             MR. KALKAT:  Sorry, can you say that again please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15208             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, did Mr. Sandhu use the airwaves to ask the listeners to contribute money towards project development or ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15209             MR. KALKAT:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15210             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15211             MR. KALKAT:  He did ‑‑ for the radio station he always made some kind of arrangement to collect money and telling them, you know, I'm getting broke and people should pay the money, and running some, you know, sponsorship program and telling people somebody has a debt and collecting their money and that money never went to those proper people.  There was no record of that, okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15212             But because I was working at the radio station I can give you much more detail.  The money part he took it away ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15213             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But again, what you are raising here is not a matter for consideration by the ‑‑ obviously, it is a matter of concern but it is a matter of civil law ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 15214             MR. KALKAT:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15215             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ that has to be dealt with by the court of justice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15216             MR. KALKAT:  I agree with you, sir, but what I am trying to say is this man was running the program over there at the radio station.  There was a piracy programming going on there.  There's iMediaTouch program, okay, and in that program what was happening was that this gentleman ‑‑ they bought a program, which I found out later through Mr. Pabla also.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15217             What was happening was that they bought the program to load one section but the production from where they run the songs, they took a sample for one month and every month they will change the numbers, you know, to keep that month as it is to run that program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15218             So they never bought that part of the program to run it.  So they ‑‑ it is illegal to do it and if iMediaTouch finds it, they could be penalized for that.  That was one of the things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15219             The other thing, what he was saying was that, you know, that he has his own antenna at the top of, you know, Royal Montreal, and he's paying $20,000 and people should pay money because he's serving the community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15220             That is misleading.  That is very much misleading because people were thinking that, you know, he's paying too much money but basically he was buying the program from McGill and probably he's not paying more than $2,000 a month, to my understanding because I also ran a radio for a few months and, you know, rates are not that much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15221             So he was telling the people this and on top of that he was saying, you know, sponsor my BBC program because I have to pay BBC to take their program from them and let the listener listen, but all he was doing was from internet downloading it and relaying it.  That was another thing he was doing which was not ethically correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15222             And again, he was collecting ‑‑ he collected money for Tsunami victims, he collected money for Kashmir victims, he collected money for people sometimes that died and they wanted to pay and there was no record of that.  When they were asking for records, there was no record that was given to the people.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15223             What he did to me personally is entirely different, for which I am suffering now.  I am going to Douglas Hospital every week and almost I died.  I survived because I was not able to take the pressure.  And it is not about money, it is about the ethics.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15224             When he said that he will give back the money in three weeks and the trust you have to give a person $60,000, all your family earnings to this gentleman so that he could do something and he defrauds that, he cheats you.  And then I started to look into the CRTC program and tried to find out what is going on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15225             So these were the basic things he was doing.  On earthquake victims, there was $150,000 that was collected and he only showed $50,000.  There was $100,000, there's no record of it, not at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15226             And then I wrote a letter from ICU, India Canada Organization, as the general secretary, that his records should be checked.  What he did was that he got a letter from the vice‑chairman and chairman of the association ICU, which they are not there anymore, from 2007.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15227             They were members of ICU, chairman and vice‑chair, last year but it was on the internet and what he did was that he drafted the letter by himself and Rom Kapila and the other gentleman, Rakish Kumar, signed those documents.  That ICU letter was made in his office and this is not ICU's letterhead at all which he produced.  It is not ICU's letterhead.  As the General Secretary I know that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15228             And then I also know that at the same place where Rom Kapila and the other person signed, they told me ‑‑ another person was standing.  He says you cannot do that.  So then he re‑drafted the letter.  He re‑drafted the letter and Rom Kapila and the other person, who were not chairman ‑‑ the documents are submitted here ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15229             Me LAGACÉ:  Mr. Chairman, I just want to confirm with Mr. Singh that this is part of the intervention that you already filed or ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15230             MR. SINGH:  No.  Let me ‑‑ I have a few questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15231             Me LAGACÉ:  Did Mr. Kalkat intervene ‑‑ did you intervene in this process?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15232             MR. KALKAT:  I requested an intervention but when the honourable judge ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15233             MR. SINGH:  He intervened and plus I intervened on mine as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15234             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Anyhow, I think I shall thank you very much both of you at this time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15235             MR. SINGH:  I have one more question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15236             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15237             MR. SINGH:  That is that back in October when there was earthquakes in Kashmir and Pakistan, they said over the radio that we are collecting $100,000 and $100,000 U.S. will be matched by ‑‑ either Canadian $100,000 or U.S. $100,000 will be matched by the Canadian government, which never happened.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15238             And also, whatever the money they collected, they never gave us any whereabouts of that money, whereas there's a promise over the air that yes, we will give you all the reports.  And I personally from my American Express credit card paid $100 and my brother paid $400 because we trusted that these people are doing something for the community which will go the right place.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15239             But according to the news published in the newspaper, they mentioned that still yet they didn't find any kind of whereabouts and then we find out from the U.S. other agencies and they said because of those lousy laws it's very hard to track down those people, especially if they are operating from other countries.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15240             So those were the situations I wanted to mention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15241             MR. KALKAT:  And I will take just 20 seconds, sir.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15242             The thing is this, that if we give a radio station to a person like him, you know, he will be the monopoly guy there and people like me could be cheated and we could all end up in Douglas Hospital where I'm right now going every week, suffering because of this man.  My family's destroyed because of this man.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15243             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15244             MR. KALKAT:  Thank you, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15245             MR. SINGH:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15246             MS LAGACÉ:  I just want to mention, for the record, that the evidence that forms part of the intervention consists of Mr. Kalkat and Mr. Singh's testimony today as well as the documents already filed during the intervention process that was closed before the commencement of this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15247             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15248             Mrs. Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15249             THE SECRETARY:  I would now ask if they are in the room:  Manjit Singh Bahia, Paul Kalsi and Rishi Bhandal.

‑‑‑ No response / Aucune réponse


LISTNUM 1 \l 15250             LA SECRÉTAIRE : Donc, maintenant, je demanderais à M. Daniel Poulin et l'Assemblée Parole et Actes de monter en avant.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15251             LA SECRÉTAIRE : S'il vous plaît vous présenter, et vous avez 10 minutes.  Merci.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 15252             M. POULIN : Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15253             Monsieur le président, commissaires et membres du personnel, je tiens à vous remercier, premièrement, de la possibilité que vous nous donnez de pouvoir s'exprimer à propos de l'ouverture d'une...

LISTNUM 1 \l 15254             LE PRÉSIDENT : Pouvez‑vous, pour le dossier, nous donner votre nom?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15255             M. POULIN : O.K.  Mon nom, c'est Daniel Poulin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15256             LE PRÉSIDENT : D'accord.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15257             M. POULIN : ...à propos de l'ouverture d'une station de radio francophone à Montréal de Gospel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15258             Moi, j'habite le Québec depuis mon enfance, puis ma langue principale est le français, et je suis ici pour vous parler d'un besoin pressant pour notre société francophone, parce qu'il y a une carence au niveau musical pour la relève Gospel québécoise contemporaine.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15259             Mon passe‑temps actuel, c'est d'avoir créé et maintenu depuis deux ans et demi une petite station radio musicale sur internet en français, musicale Gospel, puis mon but est de faire connaître au monde francophone qu'il y a un vaste contenu musical varié provenant des gens d'ici, puis dont les paroles des chansons pourraient avoir un impact positif sur la société.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15260             On a, depuis le début, ramassé environ 410 compacts provenant d'environ 150 auteurs différents, qui donnent quand même un potentiel de pouvoir écouter pendant neuf jours de temps de la musique en français, sans repasser les mêmes chansons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15261             Puis je crois qu'on est comme à pointe de iceberg, parce qu'il y a un nombre inconnu d'artistes francophones qui font de la musique Gospel qui n'ont pas eu encore la chance de faire entendre leur voix puis surtout leur cour pour annoncer la valeur de leur foi, puis sans compter qu'il y en a d'autres qui ont le potentiel de faire des CD puis qu'ils n'ont pas comme la possibilité de pouvoir injecter des montants d'argent, sachant qu'ils ne seront pas écoutés, parce que la plupart des stations de radio actuelles ne présentent pas ce genre de musique là.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15262             Vous savez comment est‑ce que l'accès internet est quand même assez difficile, qu'on est pas encore dans tous les foyers.  Puis même quand on a l'internet, la recherche sur internet est difficile, puis c'est dur d'être connu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15263             Puis la plupart des stations de radio actuelles ne présentent pas la musique Gospel en français.  Pourtant, on peut y retrouver des pièces de qualité.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15264             Moi, je crois que notre culture est en train de s'effacer parce qu'on est entouré sur les ondes de toute sorte de musique provenant de la musique américaine, Gospel aussi inclus, et même des musiques d'autres ethnies, des langues ou d'autres religions qui sont présentement sur les ondes, et que, présentement, les gens francophones ne savent même pas qu'il existe cette musique là en français parce qu'ils ne peuvent pas l'entendre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15265             Nous devons, nous les francophones, avoir la chance de présenter nos valeurs puis, dans un sens, nos capacités de produire de la musique avant qu'on soit complètement dilué, parce que les francophones, ils n'ont pas de présentation, ils ne sont pas représentés.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15266             Le Canada anglais, ils ont compris cela, puis ils ont mis sur pied plusieurs stations de radio anglaises chrétiennes afin de présenter leurs contenus musicaux.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15267             C'est pour ça qu'il est important, qu'il est urgent même, d'avoir ici à Montréal une station de radio qui se chargera de les faire connaître, puis je crois que le projet de M. André Joly rejoint le plus cette vision.  C'est un projet québécois visant à faire connaître les artistes francophones dans notre communauté.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15268             Monsieur Joly propose un contenu musical majoritairement en français, puis je crois qu'il s'y connaît dans ce contenu‑là parce qu'il vient d'un milieu chrétien, puis que lui‑même est un francophone québécois.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15269             Puis en plus, d'après son expérience, il est depuis 40 ans dans le métier de la radio, il s'y connaît, puis il a su s'entourer de gens capables d'opérer cette station.  Il l'a prouvé à plusieurs reprises en faisant des émissions temporaires, parce qu'on a eu des permis temporaires à pouvoir faire des fins de semaine ou un mois de temps, puis c'est ce qu'il a fait.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15270             Puis en plus, il a un cour de faire connaître la relève Gospel francophone.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15271             Je crois que le CRTC fera un bon choix en donnant le permis à monsieur Joly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15272             C'est ce que j'avais à dire.  Merci beaucoup.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15273             LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci, Monsieur Poulin.  Merci pour votre présentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15274             Madame la secrétaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15275             LA SECRÉTAIRE : Ceci complète la liste d'intervenants comparaissant, donc, la Phase III.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15276             Avant de débuter la Phase IV, for the record, Canadian Hellenic Cable Radio Ltd. has filed their breakdown of time for sports, news, weather and traffic.  They have also submitted their commitment to Canadian content development, including their contribution to Music‑Multi‑Montreal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15277             La requérante René Ferron a aussi soumis leur programmation en semaine par catégorie et sous‑catégorie, une description de leur public cible, ainsi qu'une description de leur programmation de nouvelles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15278             Nous avons aussi reçu un échantillon de programmation musicale proposée par la requérante Yves Sauvé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15279             And the applicant Neeti P. Ray has filed their proposed Montreal station revised projection.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15280             Ces documents seront versés au dossier public de leur demande, et une copie est disponible à la salle d'examen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15281             Nous poursuivrons maintenant avec la Phase IV, où les requérantes peuvent répondre à toutes les interventions soumises en rapport à leur demande.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15282             Les requérantes comparaissent dans l'ordre inverse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15283             Nous demandons, alors, à Communications Média Évangélique de faire leur présentation.

RÉPLIQUE / REPLY

LISTNUM 1 \l 15284             M. JOLY : Bonjour, Monsieur le président.  Ça fait plaisir de vous voir aujourd'hui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15285             Alors, Communications Média Évangélique, bien entendu, voudrait bien obtenir ce privilège de diffuser cette musique Gospel au Québec.  L'industrie, elle est là mais n'a pas la possibilité de se faire entendre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15286             On a besoin, bien entendu, de moyens de communication.  La meilleure manière de permettre à la population de Montréal d'entendre cette musique, c'est par la radio.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15287             On a réalisé qu'on avait l'appui des gens de Montréal parce que, depuis 2003, on travaille dans le milieu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15288             On veux voir, on voulait savoir, tâter le terrain. On a participé à des événements comme tels le Festival Gospel de Repentigny, qui malgré le fait qu'il n'y a pas beacoup de possibilités de se faire entendre au niveau des ondes, parce qu'il n'y a pas de véhicule radiophonique, il tire plus de 15,000 personnes à chaque année depuis sept ans. Alors donc, on voit bien l'intérêt.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15289             Même les diffusions temporaires dont on parlais tantôt, M. Poulin, on a fait quelques diffusions temporaires sur le site du Festival Gospel, même à tel point que les gens de Repentigny qui n'ont pas de station de radio, nous demandaient si on était pour être permanent à Repentigny parce qu'il y avait eu une tempête, puis, on avais passé en ondes quelques messages pour Repentigny.  J'ai dis non, que malheureusement pour Répentigny c'est Montréal qu'on veut s'installer, et donc, on a vu la population signer nos petitions, s'embarquer à aller y, on veut cette musique‑lá, on l'aime ce musique‑lá, ce n'est pas rattaché à une religion en particulier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15290             C'est une journaliste du journal le Droit, d'ailleur, elle a écouté notre internet, la musique sur l'internet ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 15291             LE PRÉSIDENT :  M. Joly?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15292             M. JOLY :  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15293             LE PRÉSIDENT :  C'est la phase de réplique aux interventions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15294             M. JOLY :  Bon.  Vous voulez que je parles contre? Alors, je vais.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15295             LE PRÉSIDENT :  Non, mais je voulais dire, répondre à ceux qui ont fait des commentaires ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15296             M. JOLY :  Alors, je vais aller positivement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15297             LE PRÉSIDENT :  ‑‑ à l'égard de votre présentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15298             M. Joly:  Nous croyons que nous avons la meilleure proposition parce que le milieu est derrière nous, alors que International Harvester n'a pas su attirer l'intérêt des gens du milieu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15299             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Ça, c'est l'intervention.  Lá, on est à la réplique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15300             M. JOLY:  A la réplique?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15301             LE PRÉSIDENT :  Donc, à la réplique. Bien, M. Poulin viens vous appuyer.  Merci M. Poulin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15302             M. MATHIEU :  C'est ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15303             LE PRÉSIDENT :  Parce qu'à ma connaissance, il n'y a pas d'intervention négative à l'égard de votre projet.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15304             M. MATHIEU:  C'est un fait, Monsieur le Président, sauf qu'il y a un intervenant, qu'on considère un petit peu en compétition contre nous, qui propose cette couverture là. Nous, on vous propose cette couverture là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15305             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Oui, ça s'était votre intervention. Vous l'avez faites hier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15306             M. MATHIEU:  Voilà.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15307             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Merci beaucoup.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15308             M. JOLY:  Merci beaucoup monsieur le Président.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15309             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Madame la Secrétaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15310             THE SECRETARY:  Now we would ask Radio Humsafar to respond to all the interventions that were filed to their application.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15311             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  Madame la Sécretaire, je considère que c'est important que Radio Humsafar apparaisse. Je suis sûr qu'ils sont dans le voisinage lá.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15312             M. MATHIEU : Je m'excuse pour ce contretemps, mesdames, messieurs et commissaires, M. Sandhu s'en vient incessamment.

‑‑‑ Pause


LISTNUM 1 \l 15313             THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is my understanding, Mr. Sandhu, that you want to take the oath.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15314             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15315             THE SECRETARY:  Please stand up.  Could you state your name into the microphone for the record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15316             MR. SANDHU:  Jasvir Singh Sandhu.

AFFIRMED:  JASVIR SINGH SANDHU

LISTNUM 1 \l 15317             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.  You have 10 minutes to make your presentation.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 15318             MR. SANDHU:  Hello.  Good afternoon, everyone.  My name is Jasvir Singh Sandhu, President of Radio Humsafar, a Canadian company, and I am the sole owner of the company.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15319             To my knowledge, there is no entity called Radio Humsafar in the U.S.  I, Jasvir Singh Sandhu and Radio Humsafar have had no dealings whatsoever with these gentlemen.  Legal action has been instituted against them to this effect when I saw some news stories in the newspaper, in a local newspaper in California.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15320             So when we start that, our counsel in California, they received a letter from the editor of the newspaper mentioning "this is a paid advertisement".

LISTNUM 1 \l 15321             We are proud of our service and programming which, to my knowledge, the Commission has had no complaints in six years of service on SCMO service in Montréal.  We take very seriously the privilege the Commission will grant us by using the public AM airwaves to conduct our business.  We assure the Commission that Radio Humsafar is willing to take a pledge to provide outstanding broadcasting service to the Montréal South Asian communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15322             Mike might want to add something.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15323             MR. MATHIEU:  All right.  I will answer the intervention of Mr. Neeti P. Ray and S.S. TV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15324             When they say that we have a low‑budget and we are not doing things properly, well, you know very well that stations such as ours are on the air at the moment.  Some are being implemented and their working very well with similar budgets that we are proposing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15325             So I think that takes care of that and that will work.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15326             Yesterday at the question period I think the Commission understands that this is Montréal.  It is not another market like Toronto.  The amount of money, the revenue projection and the expenses projection and things like this that we propose are more in line with stations such as ours in this market as opposed to Toronto.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15327             I think the other applicants have exaggerated their projection.  Again, we feel that their application is more for a Toronto station that a Montreal station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15328             Given all this and given what was said here in the intervention process, I have known Mr. Sandhu for quite a while.  Before I accepted to be his consultant, I did a few checkings with Radio McGill, and so on, and I am convinced that if you give him the honour of having a licence, the privilege of using 1400 kHz, Mr. Sandhu is going to do a good job.  I have no problem with being his consultant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15329             As far as the use of an FM frequency, I think you know what my position is.  Radio Humsafar pledges ‑‑ and I know this for a fact to be an ethnic station.  There is another applicant here who pretends to want to have an ethnic station.  I think that person has every right to do this.  However, if you listen to the existing station, whether the rules are met or not, the impression you get when you listen to the morning show on the drive is that it is a mainstream station.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15330             This is the point we would like to make.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15331             Again, we thank you for listening to us and giving us a chance to appear here today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15332             MR. SANDHU:  I just want to add, I raised the question of funds raised and things like that over the air.  Whenever we do such a thing, we raise any funds, our advisory committee is there.  So all the funds, whenever we collect, it goes to the right organization or wherever it has to go, and we announce on the air and we keep the records.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15333             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15334             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner French...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15335             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Mr. Sandhu, you are under oath.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15336             Have you ever solicited funds over your SCMO for the purposes of maintaining your service on the air, for paying any bills that accrue to you or Radio Humsafar?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15337             MR. SANDHU:  No, never.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15338             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  You deny then, categorically, the affirmation of your former employee to the effect that you solicited funds from your audience on the grounds that you needed financial support to maintain your service in operation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15339             MR. SANDHU:  I never announced such a thing like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15340             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  So what would you recommend?  What are we to understand, then, of your former employee's allegations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15341             These are all wholesale fabrications, California, Montréal, Calgary?  These are all made up out of the air, are they?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15342             MR. SANDHU:  To my knowledge, because Montréal we never had any other complaints, so this is the only one.  The reason behind it, our news broadcaster, she is the ex‑wife of Mr. Kalkat.  So he is doing because of her.  He don't want to work at Radio Humsafar, so she want to damage that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15343             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  (Off microphone)

LISTNUM 1 \l 15344             MR. SINGH:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15345             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Fine.  So you never used (off microphone)

LISTNUM 1 \l 15346             MR. SINGH:  Yes, sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15347             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I am not interested in hearing the domestic problems.  You have made a statement of fact which I take it is not ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 15348             MR. SANDHU:  No, that is a reason.  You know, I know it is not in your consideration, but that is the reason and what I think.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15349             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  So you never used the facilities of your SCMO to solicit funds for the purposes of supporting your station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15350             MR. SANDHU:  Never.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15351             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  You only use it for the purposes of raising funds for good causes in India or in Canada associated with your clientele?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15352             MR. SANDHU:  Yes.  Most of the time we give the money to Red Cross, and Red Cross people they always come to our radio station when we are doing those kinds of things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15353             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  In your mind there are no reasonable grounds for feeling that you have been a bad trustee of these charitable monies?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15354             MR. SANDHU:  No.  Nothing is true.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15355             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Then help us a little bit.  You say there is no Radio Humsafar in California, yet we have in the files a logo of a Radio Humsafar in California.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15356             How do we square this circle?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15357             MR. SANDHU:  All right.  I want to clear that out.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15358             So there is an AVR Media Company in California that belongs to my cousin.  So we are providing our Canadian CRTC regulated programming to them.  We are exporting programming to the States, so they are broadcasting our programming.  So that is all I do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15359             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  It is not called Radio Humsafar, notwithstanding the fact that calls itself Radio Humsafar?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15360             MR. SANDHU:  It is called AVR Media.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15361             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  You personally deny any involvement whatsoever in the activities which have led to the grievances that have been exposed to us in writing and briefly here in person?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15362             MR. SANDHU:  I have nothing to do with those people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15363             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  How do you ‑‑ sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15364             How do you explain their concern with you, then?  Have they arbitrarily selected you from among the relatives of someone they were doing business with?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15365             Why are you in the picture at all?  Why do you suddenly become associated with these activities?


LISTNUM 1 \l 15366             MR. SANDHU:  I don't know.  Maybe somebody wants to damage our application or ‑‑ I don't know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15367             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  But why would they want to do that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15368             MR. SANDHU:  I don't know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15369             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  So fate has arbitrarily selected you as the individual against which these people appear and fabricate complete nonsense on the subject of your business practices?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15370             MR. SANDHU:  We can ask them if they have any proof Radio Humsafar or are just ‑‑ like where is my involvement?  Did I sign anywhere, any document?  Do they have any proof they paid me the money?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15371             Can they produce any document?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15372             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I am not principally concerned, Mr. Sandhu, with whether or not there is a civil case in California.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15373             MR. SANDHU:  I know.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15374             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I am concerned with your personal fitness to hold a broadcasting licence.  I am giving you the opportunity here and now to explain to us what seems like a very, very arbitrary and surprising event, to wit that people have come all the way from California to make statements about your fitness to hold a licence, apparently for no good reason that we can think of except they don't like your cousin in California.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15375             I mean, that seems a very unlikely story and I'm trying to give you the opportunity to explain how it could be that they would bother to come all this way to say things which you say are complete fabrications about you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15376             MR. SANDHU:  Actually, I don't know what is the reason behind it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15377             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  You have never, I take it, in the talk show that you operate ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15378             MR. SANDHU:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15379             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  ‑‑ been involved with any issues of religion and racism or issues associated with your homeland, which has had a difficult political history, which would be qualified as demagogic or unreasonable in your mind?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15380             We have a statement on the record from Manjit Bahia who says:


"Mr. Jasvir Singh Sandhu's talk shows are also questionable.  He plays with the emotion of the people.  Radio media show should be above religions and racism, but from his regular talk shows I smell racism and religious fundamentalism.  These things have no place in our country."  (As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 15381             MR. SANDHU:  Does this person live in Montréal?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15382             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  No.  This person apparently lives in Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15383             MR. SANDHU:  Actually we don't provide programming to Calgary.  But we never had any complaint like for our talk shows or any other programmings.  Our talk shows are very well educated, informative, stimulated and we have different guests from ‑‑ you know, if we are talking about religion, so we invite the leaders of the different religious groups or the leaders of different organizations, doctors, engineers.  They come and they provide information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15384             People, like in a call‑in show, so they call and they acquire the information, whatever they need.  So those talk shows are very informative and we have no problem with that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15385             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  So when you discuss what has been historically difficult political situations, both in your former country and as a result of the events in your former country, events in our country, you are careful to be balanced and judicious in your treatment of those issues?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15386             MR. SANDHU:  I am very careful of that and I know the CRTC rules and regulations.  I know it is an SCMO service, but we follow like AM/FM radio CRTC regulations.  So I am very well aware of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15387             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Those are all of my questions, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15388             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cram...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15389             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15390             Mr. Sandhu, I apologize, I have to go back to the boxes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15391             MR. SANDHU:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15392             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I made a mistake yesterday.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15393             In the boxes when we were talking about the ethnic group to be served by the Tamil language, I sort of put in your mouth that it was Sri Lanka.  The ethnic group is really Tamils for whom the Tamil language will be programmed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15394             Would that be fair?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15395             MR. SANDHU:  Sri Lanka and South India.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15396             MR. SWAMINADHAN:  Yes, yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15397             MR. SANDHU:  The state of Tamil I do in India.  Our marketing breakdown ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15398             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No, but the ethnic group will be Tamils?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15399             MR. SWAMINADHAN:  That's right.  That's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15400             MR. SANDHU:  Tamil, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15401             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15402             Mr. Sandhu, you said you did most of your fund raising with the Red Cross and I am assuming that they would be giving out charitable receipts?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15403             MR. SANDHU:  Right.  Actually, we collect ‑‑ usually we don't collect money at our station.  Usually we just take the pledges and most of the people, they send directly, because when we call Red Cross they said if the people, individuals need the receipts for tax purposes, so they have to get the money directly to Red Cross.  So they do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15404             A couple of times we collected the money and they gave us one receipt.  So we have all the records, all the fund raisers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15405             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  So you may end up with collecting some money, but the Red Cross would then give you a collective receipt.  Is that the idea?


LISTNUM 1 \l 15406             MR. SANDHU:  That's right.  I have a picture from Red Cross giving me the receipt, you know, like one time when we were doing fund raising.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15407             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  Is there any fund raising that you do for which there is no charitable receipt given?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15408             MR. SANDHU:  No.  For me, no.  Last time what they were talking about, like Kashmir when there was a big earthquake, like we were taking the pledges.  So we asked the people, "How do you want to send the money?  Do you want us to give the money to a special organization, Red Cross or whatever you want?"

LISTNUM 1 \l 15409             We had a talk show on that.  So many people, they express their views.  Some of them, they said, "Okay, we want to give to Red Cross because they will double ‑‑ they will match the dollars."  Some of them, they said, "No, we want to give to a South Asian organization."  So then I said, "What do I do?"

LISTNUM 1 \l 15410             When we have talk show, the voting was 50‑50.  So I said, "What do I do?"  Like some people, they said, "Okay, give it to a South Asian organization."  So then the question is which organization.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15411             So then the leaders of our community, they came to our radio station and we are meeting with the advisory board.  So then they decided to pick an organization that is on non‑religious organization that is in Ontario, Guru Nanak Relief Fund.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15412             So we give them money.  We announce it on radio, so whoever wants to give to this organization so they can pay us or pay this organization directly, or who wants to pay to Red Cross.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15413             If you want a tax receipt, you had to pay directly to the Red Cross.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15414             So we got almost $50,000.  So that we paid to Guru Nanak Relief Fund.  That is a Toronto non‑profit organization.  So we have receipts and we have all the records for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15415             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  But is that organization a charitable organization ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15416             MR. SANDHU:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15417             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  ‑‑ under the Canada ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15418             MR. SANDHU:  They are supposed to provide all the receipts to the different people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15419             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So you essentially just gave an accounting to them and then they would provide the receipts?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15420             MR. SANDHU:  Right.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15421             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  But the Red Cross was just to get the money directly?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15422             MR. SANDHU:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15423             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  At this moment in time, are there any outstanding claims, judgments or writs against your company or yourself personally in Canada or the U.S.?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15424             MR. SANDHU:  Never.  Nothing, never.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15425             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15426             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Sandhu, and your team.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15427             MR. SANDHU:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15428             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will go to the next item.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15429             THE SECRETARY:  I would now ask S.S. TV to respond to all the interventions that were filed to their application.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15430             THE SECRETARY:  You have 10 minutes to make your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15431             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Please introduce for the record the people that are with you, Mr. Pannu.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 15432             MR. PANNU:  Thank you again, Chairperson, Commissioners and CRTC staff.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15433             Our reply is to interventions placed against the application of S.S. TV Inc.  Most of the intervenors are well‑connected as evidenced by their own documentation with Mr. Michel Mathieu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15434             Mr. Michel Mathieu is a consultant of Radio Humsafar and their representative.  Most of the other intervenors are clients and associates of Mr. Michel Mathieu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15435             We have replied to these interventions in writing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15436             Now I request Mr. Mario Kumar to reply to Radio Humsafar's intervention on technical issues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15437             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Only for the record, I note that you are Mr. Sanjiv Kumar.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15438             MR. KUMAR:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15439             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And obviously Mr. Pratola.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15440             MR. PRATOLA:  Good afternoon, or good morning I guess.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15441             Before I start, I want to just reply to what was said just previously with regards to costs, as to what it costs in Montréal as compared to what it would cost to operate a station in Toronto.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15442             My experience has been that there really isn't any difference.  We hire people from Montreal to come down to Toronto and they overcharge us.  People come here, or come to Montréal and work here, and they overcharge.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15443             It is a dichotomy of things or something like that.  But the point is, from what I could tell from their spreadsheet is that there is absolutely no way, no way, not for that kind of money.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15444             But I digress.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15445             In front of you, you have a contour map which indicates both the S.S. TV pattern and the Radio Humsafar pattern superimposed.  By the way, that is supposed to be a perfect circle.  So I wasn't drunk, I didn't have anything to draw with and I was burning ‑‑ well, I didn't have any more midnight oil left to burn, so I tried the best I could.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15446             But basically that is it.  Okay?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15447             Also, you have a document there from YRH, which is to answer the comment of yesterday with regards to the three inline towers at CJMS.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15448             Radio Humsafar or Michel Mathieu, the consultant for them, categorically denied that.  I'm sure he knows what he is talking about, but I go by what my engineer is saying.  I go by what they are stating on paper, and they tell me that there is three towers inline.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15449             Therefore, that is the reply in terms of that concern.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15450             Now I will get into the rest of the replies required.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15451             A couple of interventions are placed against application ‑‑ sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15452             Radio Humsafar claims that all 1 kW AMs are perfect in terms of transmission coverage.  To this he added similar undertakings in Toronto.  I am astounded at hearing comments of this nature which are baseless and just hearsay.  Comments which are not supported in any way with valid technical studies, nor facts, nor documents should not be possibly admitted.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15453             At stake there are very serious issues.  Applicants have spent loads of money to get to this stage and, as applicants, we are supposed to accept undocumented technical analysis at face value?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15454             No, sir.  You provide the facts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15455             I would request of the Commission that any testimony in this regard be struck out that was made yesterday.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15456             Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, when an undertaking is completed, due diligence is often or should be exercised by the broadcaster in order to qualify the pattern by taking FSM readings or field strength meter readings for two reasons:  one, to keep the P. Eng honest; two, to keep himself honest about the quality of coverage he has, which in turn is tied to the ad sale campaign.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15457             In the maps you have in front of you, the two Radio Humsafar's contours were transposed and scaled.  The 25 mV per metre and a 3.65 mV per metre were transposed onto that Map No. 3.  Here are the observations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15458             Radio Humsafar, because it is a one antenna radiator, it will provide an omnidirectional pattern are shown, and of course it does go farther than the S.S. TV Inc. pattern.  There is no denying.  But this is where we diverge the facts and reality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15459             First of all, there is no thing as a perfect omnidirectional perfect circle coverage, as shown in Radio Humsafar.  Their map does not deal with real‑world facts such as atmospheric attenuation, obstructions, sky waves, tunnelling effects, et cetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15460             What one has to also be mindful of is the "what if" statement, "what if" events.  I can assure you that at some point they will be operating at a low power for some necessary reason.  If that was the case, the pattern would collapse and suffer severely.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15461             Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, if I may, I have worked with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for many years and amongst other duties I responded to listener complaints from all over southwestern Ontario, be it FM, AM, TV, whatever.  I therefore speak from the real world experience, and I assure you that Radio Humsafar will not perform as it technically appears.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15462             Radio Humsafar should have asked for a real pattern which takes into account the conditions which were just mentioned.  The 25 mV and 3.65 mV will experience difficult reception on the North side of Montréal, communities such as St. Leonard, Anjou, Cité‑de‑la‑Mode, et cetera.  In the downtown core of Montréal single degradation should be expected.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15463             Radio Humsafar claims that most of the ethnic community, South Asian, resides in the West End of Montréal or the Island of Montréal.  Perhaps this is so.  Let me just say that if this was the case, Radio Humsafar should have located itself closer to the community it wishes to primarily serve, but doing that it would thwart the lucrative market of the remaining ethnic groups.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15464             S.S. TV Inc., its pattern is a function of its co‑siting constraints, but it does work well, our market, primarily Montréal central.  S.S. TV Inc. has taken the philosophy, both in Montréal and in our Brampton application, that we will not nickel and dime but only real investment and honest approach will do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15465             Radio Humsafar is attempting to cover a large metropolitan city with such a low power, the analogy being like shooting a rhino with a BB gun.  This kind of operation just doesn't cut it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15466             Radio Humsafar again claims that the majority of ethnic groups live in the West End of the Island of Montréal and, further, they comment that S.S. TV does not cover that area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15467             We at S.S. TV, our music:  Do these individuals work?  Do they shop?  Do they travel?  Who knows?  Of course they do.  They do all these things.  After all, they are all people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15468             S.S. TV will catch them as soon as they get mobile, for kilometre upon kilometre upon kilometre within our half millivolt contour, which is the in‑vehicle service contour.  We will have a possible audience of 2.8 million listeners.  This is exciting, although it is obviously tailored to a particular group.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15469             S.S. TV Inc. would also like to assure the Commission that although the theoretical pattern does not go as far west as we would prefer it, the RF signal does not die suddenly at some theoretical line on a map, but it continues for some distance yet.  I would not be surprised if the whole of the West Island is covered due to RF leakage, spillage, provided ‑‑ the terrain would be a key factor as well in this coverage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15470             Radio Humsafar has also brought up the issue of usage of the 1320 kHz frequency in its place for the 1410.  This has been answered in the intervention stage, but we will revisit the issue for the last time simply because it was mentioned again.  1320 kHz ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15471             THE SECRETARY:  I'm sorry, but your time is almost over.  Could you conclude, please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15472             MR. PRATOLA:  All right.  I will pass over to Mr. Pannu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15473             MR. PANNU:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15474             We had a couple of comments which we don't have time to explain more, but the Commission and Chairperson has our written comments about these interventions.  So we think you will consider these interventions that were made by others.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15475             We have answered for Mr. Turcot's in this intervention.  So we thank you for giving us the opportunity to appear in front of this Panel and we wish in the future.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15476             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Pannu.  I will have the first question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15477             You heard this morning Mr. Turcot who brought a new piece of information that Transport Québec was expropriating the piece of land.  Obviously you don't have the configuration of the piece that they are expropriating, but could that have an impact on your ability to implement the extra tower?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15478             MR. PANNU:  I would ask Mr. Mario to answer this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15479             MR. PRATOLA:  According to Brian Sawyer, who is one of the best if not one of the remaining few AM specialists we have in the country, he visited the site and he provided comment and opinion and it was based ‑‑ YRH based our technical brief on his opinions and I trust his opinions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15480             We go back quite a bit with the Mother Corp. and he is very good, so no reason why we shouldn't be trusting his opinions.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15481             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Pratola, in your oral presentation ‑‑ I think it's in your paragraph 9 ‑‑ referring to your paragraph 9, yesterday Radio Humsafar quoted that most of the South Asian population in Montréal was living in Lasalle, Lachine, Dollard Des Ormeaux, Pierrefonds, Roxboro, St. Laurent, Dorval and throughout the West Island and some parts of Laval.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15482             Obviously in your rebuttal you alluded to the fact that you will serve them when they are in a mobile environment, but do you think the Commission should also keep in mind ‑‑ and is it true ‑‑ my question is:  When you did your study, Mr. Pannu and Mr. Kumar, did you identify exactly where the South Asian population is currently living?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15483             MR. KUMAR:  Well, we don't deny the fact that the South Asian population do live in the West Island.  We accept that the South Asian population do live in Laval and Lachine.  That is not untrue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15484             I was just wondering something back.  We were analyzing in Toronto and the South Asian community was previously concentrated in downtown Toronto, and after that they moved to Mississauga.  And now they are more, there are 58 percent approximately in Brampton.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15485             In this type of situation, if there is a migration of people which normally takes place, people love to concentrate on particular areas, the Humsafar application, if that happens, what has happened in Toronto happens in Montréal in the future, what will be the future of that small, low powered, thousand watt transmitter?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15486             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am talking specifically about your own project.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15487             When the South Asians navigate in Montréal to go for work, do you know where they go for work?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15488             MR. KUMAR:  Most of them go to downtown Toronto.  They go to various factories.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15489             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm talking Montréal specifically.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15490             MR. PANNU:  All right.  You are where the new development occurs.  Mostly we have experienced in Toronto when people came from overseas into Canada they were living downtown.  Then they got a little bit of money and they bought the house where the house was really inexpensive and keep doing their jobs and having more money and getting some source from overseas to get the money here.  So then they start buying that bigger house in new places.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15491             So what we see here, what will happen in the future depends on which area will be good for them.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15492             Our understanding is all the immigrants keep moving from one place to another place.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15493             MR. KUMAR:  Another factor I can mention is that people, they have started developing things in the area of Brossard where Humsafar's application intervention says that hardly 500 people of South Asian community lives.  But people have started moving to that direction.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15494             MR. PRATOLA:  May I just had something to that from a technical point of view.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15495             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15496             MR. PRATOLA:  When we looked at, first of all, the frequency and, second of all, the location, we were sort of under pressure because it was a September 18th hearing ‑‑ anyway, it was postponed because of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15497             But the fact is that if we were to be licensed and it didn't work out with whom we think we should be co‑siting with, we would go and we would find a parcel of land.  We would construct an entire AM, which is probably unheard of today in this manner.  And yes, then we would be where we actually want to be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15498             But this is the reality of things.  We want to maximize the spectrum.  10 kW is an excellent way to start.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15499             So we have a future basically.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15500             MR. KUMAR:  Another point I would like to add in final is that our application, it is not only for the South Asian community.  It has to cover various other communities.  The Commission has to make a decision so they have to see that other communities are to be served by this AM station also, not only the South Asian community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15501             MR. PANNU:  We try to bring many communities on one platform so we can utilize to the maximum AM frequency, not to small community or not to small spectrum.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15502             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Pannu, you heard your consultant Mr. Pratola saying that if you cannot collocate you will find another frequency, another piece of land, and you will implement a superb AM radio station, which is unheard of in today's terms.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15503             MR. PRATOLA:  May I just correct you, sir?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15504             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15505             MR. PRATOLA:  Not look for a new frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15506             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, for the same frequency.  I apologize for the misunderstanding.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15507             But obviously that will require money.  It is good for your consultant to say so, but we would like to hear it from the one who is cutting the cheque.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15508             MR. PANNU:  Yes, sir.  We have no objection.  If you allow us today, you are granting a licence, we can bring the parcel to you within a week or two.  So we don't have any problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15509             We are well financially operational since a long time and we don't have any objection to buy the property.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15510             I should mention here, too, we were expecting a Brampton licence so due to that we purchased the property which was really close to Brampton community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15511             What we think in the previous application our programming was not properly understood by the Commission.  So we don't have any objection to buy the land, buy the equipment at the right time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15512             MR. KUMAR:  I can add here to Mr. Pannu the paragraph 16 of our submission here, we have already mentioned here that we accept this as a condition of licence, if we are to develop a new site.  We have already mentioned that in the paragraph 16.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15513             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, but again, that was read by your consultant.


‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 15514             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, gentlemen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15515             MR. PRATOLA:  I just want to add one other thing.  I just want to say that I am trying to work for a new truck.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15516             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Fine.  Thank you very much, gentlemen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15517             MR. PANNU:  Thank you, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15518             MR. KUMAR:  Thank you again for giving us the opportunity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15519             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15520             THE SECRETARY:  I would now ask International Harvesters for Christ Evangelistic Association to come to the presentation table.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 15521             REVEREND LUTES:  Mr. Chairman, Commissioner French, Commissioner Cram and others of the CRTC, I am pleased to appear before you to respond to the interventions that have been submitted against us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15522             We wish to respond to the intervention that this would not be the best use of the frequency.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15523             Our high commitment to local programming demonstrates that our application is the best use of the frequency.  Given that many ethnic groups are defined in large part by their religious heritage, we will serve the varied ethnic communities of Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15524             For some, their religion is largely synonymous with their culture.  A full hour each day is devoted to specific ethnic religious broadcasts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15525             We have been wrongly cast by one of the applicants as being single faith.  Our documentation shows this is a multi‑religious, a multi‑ethnic station being proposed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15526             We have been accused of not being accommodating.  This could not be further from the truth.  We are offering to train members of various ethnic religious groups to produce their own programs.  We have a solid strategy to develop new local programming whereby we give training and provide equipment for groups to represent themselves on the airways, and if this is not enough we will even do it for them.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15527             It has been suggested that we apply for an AM frequency.  With our strong emphasis on the current Christian music and wanting to appeal to a younger demographic, our business plan requires the fidelity of an FM frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15528             It has been said that the numbers do not merit a religious FM licence.  214,000 Montréal Protestants is bigger than most Canadian cities.  Focus on the Family, Time Canada, and the Vanier Institute have each conducted polls all showing the same results:  religion is on the rise in Canada.  Church attendance is on the rise for the first time in a generation.  Weekly religious service attendance now stands at 25 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15529             There is an emerging religious renaissance.  Religion is making a comeback.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15530             Some of the intervenors have tried to suggest we do not have the numbers to warrant such a station.  Reginald Bibby of the University of Lethbridge, the country's leading expert on religious trends, says religion is growing in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15531             One intervenor said Radioville is excellent.  I find this surprising.  They are not playing the top 40 Christian songs from the charts.  I fail to see how they are even remotely coming close to serving the needs of other religions.  They are one‑sided, being Catholic.  We are the ecumenical solution and the inter‑religious answer.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15532             Underserved third language groups can be served through our religious licence.  We would be willing, for example, to have a portion of the Hindu program in an East Indian language.  In fact, we would except as a condition of licence that would make room for other languages in our broadcast schedule.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15533             We are the best concession that will make the most people happy because we can serve the religious and ethnic communities at the same time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15534             When people immigrate to Canada, they want to find a spiritual home to meet new people.  106.3 in Montréal, with a 3 mV coverage, serves 1.5 million people; 106.3 in Vaudreuil‑Dorion will serve 70,000.  If the frequency is used in Vaudreuil‑Dorion, then it can't be used in Montréal where 20 times the people would be served.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15535             We understand the needs of Montréal, much to the chagrin of those who would state otherwise.  This has been abundantly evidenced by our demographic and market studies.  We are well aware of the cries of Montréalers for security, comfort, hope and peace.  We are able to give people what they are asking for.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15536             It is our accusers who do not understand the Montréal market and the vision of the CRTC.  Canada is not a Christian country.  Technically there is no such thing as a Christian radio licence.  We reflect the country's religious mosaic by allotting time to all the major religions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15537             Further to the allegation the numbers do not warrant such a licence, adult weekly religious attendance is at 18 percent in Québec.  This constitutes a large number who want a religious FM licence.  Religion is alive and well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15538             The numbers currently warrant a new religious FM licence to serve such a large percentage of Montréal.  We represent the widest and largest group of all the applicants.  We will have the greatest potential listenership.  30 percent of Canadians reported to researchers that religion was very important to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15539             There is a renaissance of religion in Québec.  Religion is alive and well in Québec.  Christian beliefs are holding ground in Canada.  Awarding this licence will accommodate and satisfy the largest group attending the needs of religious and ethnic communities at the same time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15540             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15541             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Thank you Mr. Lutes and Mr. Adams.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15542             Madam Secretary...?


LISTNUM 1 \l 15543             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15544             I will now ask Neeti P. Ray to respond to all the interventions that were filed to their application.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15545             THE SECRETARY:  Please introduce yourself and you have 10 minutes.  Thank you.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 15546             MR. RAY:  Thank you.  My name is Neeti P. Ray.  Good morning once again, Mr. Chairman and Commissioner Cram and Commissioner French.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15547             I will respond and I will keep it as brief as possible.  I know it is almost at the end of the last phase.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15548             The contention of Canadian Hellenic Cable Radio that our proposal does not provide for enough programming in French and English, we would like to point out that such so‑called bridging initiative would be achieved better by first giving the third language communities what is dearest to them, in terms of radio service that is, programs in their own heritage languages that they are most comfortable with.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15549             There is an abundance of French and English language programming in various genres that each community is exposed to in Montréal.  Duplicating any service in the mainstream languages at the cost of services to third language communities who are devoid of programming in their heritage languages would be counterproductive in the efforts to achieve the true objectives of the Ethnic Broadcasting Policy and the Broadcasting Act.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15550             It is therefore our position that using the valuable 106.3 FM frequency to provide first‑time service to 20 unserved and badly underserved ethnic communities in their mother tongues in the Montréal market should be a top priority during this licensing process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15551             Considering the demographics of Montréal and the services available in the market, as well as services that are unavailable in the market, our proposal strives to do exactly that, serving as many unserved ethnic groups as practicable without compromising on the quality of service to these 20 ethnic groups.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15552             Additionally, because we shall generate our revenues from business communities that for the most part remain untapped, our proposal will have the least impact, if any, on existing Montréal radio stations, unlike the Hellenic proposal.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15553             Radio Humsafar.  As for Radio Humsafar's contention that the 106.3 FM frequency does not have as good a coverage as the 1400 AM frequency proposed by Humsafar, we would note that the population figures within Humsafar's 15 mV contour is 320,000 people and within its 5 mV contour 705,000 people.  In comparison, the population figures within our comparable 3 mV and .5 mV FM contours are 1.4 million and 2.25 million people, respectively, as can be seen in our application, section 5.2.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15554             René Ferron and Yves Sauvé have both argued that it would be more appropriate for our ethnic service to move to AM frequency.  While we leave it to the Commission's wisdom to decide whether the ethnic service that we are proposing is better suited for FM or not, we would point out that the diverse communities that we propose to serve do not only deserve a good quality signal, but they also are spread across the greater Montréal area, that we believe only the 106.3 FM frequency can best reach.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15555             I think I neglected to mention that Hellenic also raised the issue of being a local Montréaler as being important to be an owner of a radio station in Montréal.  We do not see that as an issue, otherwise CHIN Radio would not have been licensed for Ottawa; they live in Toronto.  NewCap, who I know Rob lives in Halifax, would never have been given a new licence for Ottawa or for Alberta or for British Columbia.  And I don't see that anywhere in the regulations as being an issue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15556             I think what is an issue is the licensee should be capable of successfully establishing a radio station that would be in line with the regulation and fulfil its obligations to the communities and to the CRTC and to fulfilling the conditions of licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15557             We are more than capable of doing that and also knowing that the synergies that I know are flowing from CHIN Radio to Ottawa are unquestionable.  And I have complimented Lenny Lombardi on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15558             So that sort of answers that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15559             Dr. Agard, you have anything to add to that?


LISTNUM 1 \l 15560             DR. AGARD:  Commissioners, I believe that yesterday Hellenic referred to this application as a traditional ethnic broadcasting application.  My sense is that that is probably what is necessary at this time.  What is necessary is a tried and trusted model of bringing that diversity to Montréal, that representative diversity.  This is the last frequency FM.  And my sense is that experimenting at this time with another model when you have the South Asian community being the only community that is grossly underserved with a full operational broadcasting undertaking, then the traditional model is perhaps what is necessary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15561             So I think we should leave you with that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15562             The last comment was that one or two intervenors also mentioned about the broad span of service should include French.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15563             I know that is a sensitive issue, but I believe, Commissioners, you do have an opportunity to do that as well, not at the expense of the underserved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15564             MR. RAY:  While we recognize that each applicant has worked very hard and has come here with very strong convictions about their proposals, and we have indeed learned a lot from each one of them and we do want to thank them for that, but I also wish to thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and Commissioner Cram and Commissioner French, for so patiently hearing us out, and also the staff for so quietly bearing with us.  All the best to everybody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15565             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Ray, Thank you, Dr. Agard.  We have no questions.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15566             Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15567             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15568             Maintenant je demanderais à René Ferron de venir à la table.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15569             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  S'il vous plais vous présenter et vous avez dix minutes pour répondre aux interventions, merci.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 15570             M. FERRON :  Alors, bonjour Messieurs, Mesdames les Conseillers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15571             Alors, je demanderais à monsieur Barnabé, notre future vice‑président, de vous entretenir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15572             M. BARNABÉ :  Bonjour. Certains on dis que notre projet était un voeu pieu. On a dit aussi que c'était un beau projet, une belle idée. Nous, on affirme que c'est le seule projet qui a été présenté ici qui est vraiment différent de ce qui existe dans l'industrie. C'est une proposition originale qui va dans le sens de l'avenir plutôt que dans le sens de repli sur soi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15573             Oui?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15574             Je pensais que vous aviez ‑‑ non, non?  OK, très bien. Non, non.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15575             Donc, notre proposition est vraiment originale parce que, ce qu'on propose, c'est très différent de ce qui existe et ça va dans le sens de l'ouverture de l'avenir et non du repli sur soi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15576             On a parlé de l'équipe.  Alors, nous disposons des ressources humaines nécessaire pour faire ce travail là, d'abord l'équipe de direction est une équipe expérimentée qui a fait ses preuves. L'équipe de production, si on veut, est multiculturelle et multidisciplinaire.  Nous avons, par exemple, deux conseillers en musique du monde, un qui est critique à la presse dans ce domaine là depuis ‑‑ au journal La presse depuis 1999 et un autre qui est chef disquaire dans un commerce au détail, donc en contacte avec le publique et capable, donc, de répondre aux demandes de ce publique‑là.  Donc, ces deux personnes là sont ‑‑ font parties de l'équipe et on a aussi, comme vous l'avez vu dans les documents, des conseillers ou des ressources un peu dans toutes les domaines.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15577             Nos ressources financières aussi sont solides, on en a parlé quelques fois, les ressources techniques aussi.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15578             Pour ce qui est... on a dit aussi que notre proposition manquait de précisions, par exemple, en termes de programmation.  Nous avons déposé, ce matin, un tableau détaillé qui répond à toutes ces questions‑là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15579             La programmation a été regroupée par catégorie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15580             Alors, dans le domaine des créations orales, Catégorie 1, nous avons environ 31 pour cent de notre programmation, dont 3 pour cent plus ou moins de nouvelles, et 28 pour cent pour les autres créations orales.  C'est détaillé même par programme.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15581             La musique populaire, Catégorie 2, représente 18 pour cent de la programmation générale, ou encore, si on veut, 28 pour cent de la programmation musicale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15582             La Catégorie 3, c'est 44 pour cent de la programmation générale ou 70 pour cent de la programmation musicale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15583             Le reste, c'est pour les productions musicales comme les thèmes, et caetera, et puis la publicité.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15584             Maintenant, pour ce qui est de la programmation préenregistrée, 54 pour cent des créations orales seront préenregistrées...

LISTNUM 1 \l 15585             LE PRÉSIDENT : Monsieur Barnabé, vous nous avez déposé ce document.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15586             M. BARNABÉ : Oui.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15587             LE PRÉSIDENT : Il fait partie du dossier.  Ce n'est pas nécessaire de nous en faire le sommaire ou quoi que ce soit.  Le personnel, les membres du Conseil vont l'étudier avant de prendre leur décision, soyez‑en assuré.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15588             J'aimerais qu'on revienne plus spécifiquement sur l'aspect réplique aux interventions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15589             CONSEILLER FRENCH : On ne veut pas que vous utilisez le temps de réplique pour les choses qui sont faites de toute façon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15590             M. BARNABÉ : Très bien.  O.K.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15591             Pour ce qui est des ressources, du côté des nouvelles, nous allons faire appel à des collaborateurs ici pour la rédaction des nouvelles, mais la question souvent a été soulevée du contrôle de l'information, de la qualité de l'information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15592             Alors, nous sommes en mesure... nous avons ce qu'il faut pour offrir un encadrement professionnel qui va permettre le respect des règles de déontologie les plus strictes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15593             Nous avons aussi comme ressources pour les nouvelles ‑‑ on a fait allusion à ça, mais je vais le préciser parce que la question a été soulevée aussi ‑‑ non seulement il y aura chez nous des nouvelles internationales, nationales et locales les plus pertinentes, des nouvelles culturelles pertinentes aussi, mais nous sommes déjà en contact avec des radios francophones ou des radios qui diffusent en français à l'étranger, qui pourront nous permettre d'avoir accès, qui nous donnerons accès à des éléments qu'on pourra reprendre dans les bulletins d'information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15594             Comme, par exemple, on a déjà des contacts avec la Radio nationale jordanienne, qui diffuse en français, qui a un service en français, la Voix du Vietnam, Radio Pulsar au Burkina‑Faso, et Radio Métropole en Haïti, juste à titre d'exemple.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15595             Pour ce qui est de la programmation, certains ont dit c'est une programmation légère.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15596             Bien nous, on pense qu'une programmation, bien sûr, qui est d'abord axé sur la musique du monde, doit consacrer du temps à la musique du monde, mais le reste de notre programmation est surtout culturelle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15597             Je trouve qu'il y a une sorte de mépris de parler de légèreté quand on parle de culture.  La culture, ce n'est pas léger, ça dépend comment on en parle.  Ça dépend comment on traite la culture, et c'est un lieu de rencontre beaucoup plus riche en potentiel de rapprochement que des thématiques qui soulèvent plus de polémique et plus de conflit.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15598             Alors, la question de la culture et de la programmation légère, je pense que c'est une chose qui ne va pas se confirmer dans la réalité.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15599             Maintenant, certains ont proposé des programmations, d'après ce qu'on a vu, qui nous semblent morcelées, alors que la nôtre, elle est autour d'une idée maîtresse très, très claire, c'est une programmation intégrée et non pas l'accumulation d'une série de programmes faite par des équipes qui viennent d'un peu partout.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15600             Nous, on a vraiment une vision intégrée : c'est la présentation en français de musique du monde à un auditoire qui vient de toutes les souches, de toutes les origines, et, en ce sens‑là, on ouvre les portes et on favorise le rapprochement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15601             Pour ce qui est du marché, notre clientèle, on l'a dit quelques fois, c'est une clientèle urbaine, trilingue souvent, jeune, qui s'intéresse, bien sûr, à sa culture d'origine, mais qui adhère à une sorte d'identité urbaine qui est ouverte sur le monde, et ce marché‑là, il est à développer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15602             Dans notre esprit, il est très clair, et on pense qu'autour de ça, il y a des possibilités d'aller chercher une audience et de développer une radio qui aura du succès et qui sera rentable.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15603             Maintenant, René va intervenir maintenant sur des points relatifs à la fusion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15604             M. FERRON : Monsieur French, hier, je crois que vous étiez inquiété comment on pouvait, avec $ 9 000 produire des CD.  Alors...

LISTNUM 1 \l 15605             CONSEILLER FRENCH : On a le document, Monsieur Ferron.  Si vous voulez en parler, parfait, mais nous allons recevoir le document, et puis c'est tout à fait légitime comme réponse.  Bien que, normalement, on ne le ferait pas, dans ce cas‑ci, aucun problème, on apprécie la clarification.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15606             M. FERRON : Parce qu'on a communiqué avec le président des plus gros studios, et voilà!

LISTNUM 1 \l 15607             Me LAGACÉ : Je m'excuse de vous interrompre, je voudrais simplement que le dossier le mentionne.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15608             Alors, tout simplement, juste faire une description du document pour être certain que ça soit consigné au dossier.  Juste me dire en quoi consiste le document, s'il vous plaît.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15609             M. FERRON : Bien, voilà!  Le document consiste en une lettre du président de Studio Z, qui dit qu'il peut faire... cette compagnie‑là peut faire le mastering des pièces provenant du CD du 20K et produire une copie maîtresse, qui, par la suite, serait utilisée pour les fins de reproduction.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15610             Ils seraient prêts, si, évidemment, on va plus loin dans notre projet, à nous présenter une échelle de tarifs moindre que les tarifs normalement demandés dans l'industrie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15611             Ce matin, nous avons apprécié beaucoup l'intervention de AVR, et ce que nous voulons vous dire, c'est que nous sommes prêts à collaborer très étroitement avec eux et à défrayer une partie des frais encourus par cette collaboration, cette coexistence, et que nous avons les moyens pour payer ce que nous devrons payer pour bien cohabiter avec eux.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15612             LE PRÉSIDENT : Monsieur Ferron, nous n'avons pas d'autres questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15613             Monsieur Ferron, Mademoiselle Ferron, Monsieur Barnabé, merci beaucoup pour votre participation à cette audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15614             Madame la secrétaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15615             M. FERRON : Et nous vous remercions de nous avoir permis de vous expliquer notre projet en direct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15616             LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15617             J'inviterais maintenant Hellenic canadien câble radio de se présenter.

‑‑‑ Pause


LISTNUM 1 \l 15618             LA SECRÉTAIRE : S'il vous plaît vous présenter, et vous avez 10 minutes pour répondre aux interventions soumises en rapport à votre demande.  Merci.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 15619             MS GRIFFITHS:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15620             I am accompanied today by Allan Mass, Lisa Joseph, Ronald Laborde, Bill Schwartz and Joel Fortune.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15621             We have made a strong case for the licensing of CHCR to offer an ethnic service including a World Music and French language component on 106.3 in Montreal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15622             Our service has two major strengths.  First, it will be accessible to a broad audience reflecting multicultural diversity in the French language, as represented by a deep World Music experience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15623             Our application will not be exclusively third‑language programming targeted at specific communities, and we have been criticized on this basis but we put forward our pluralistic, inclusive approach and programming in French as a fundamental strength.  This approach reflects our knowledge of Montreal and its communities.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15624             Our second major strength is that we have focused on providing a comprehensive level of service to two significantly underrepresented groups in Montreal today, the Hispanic communities and the Haitian community in Creole, and a consistent level of service to the other groups we will serve.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15625             It has been said that the Hispanic and Haitian communities are already well represented on Montreal radio but this is not the case at all.  Combined these two groups represented a population of 160,000 people in 2001.  Services in Montreal that are measured only in number of hours do not come close to a full level of service for these growing communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15626             We offer professional third‑language programming which will complement existing programs.  We will provide a seamless commercial service with professional production values.  It is a mainstream ethnic radio.  We develop broadcast professionals.  We offer employment in radio.  Our service is simply different than what is out there and it meets a different need.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15627             We chose these two groups because we learned with CKDG FM that there was a large unmet demand for more programming hours.  We could not keep up with this demand, so it is natural that these groups should find the needed new outlet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15628             This represents the natural growth and development of these language markets.  There is a need, especially acute, in the Haitian community and among Haitian youth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15629             Je demanderais à Ronald Laborde d'en parler un peu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15630             Ronald.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15631             M. LABORDE : Merci, Marie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15632             Bonjour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15633             La communauté haïtienne est l'une des communautés immigrantes les plus anciennes au Québec.  Elle est également une des communautés faisant face à beaucoup de problèmes : problèmes d'éducation, délinquance juvénile, prostitution, taux de chômage élevé, gangstérisme, et caetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15634             Lorsque vous écoutez les options qui existent pour la communauté, aucune d'elles traitent de façon professionnelle et efficace ces problèmes.  Il y a plusieurs raisons majeures à cette lacune.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15635             Les animateurs qui parlent de ces problèmes s'improvisent dans ce domaine.  Aucun effort n'est fait pour rencontrer les personnes concernées, les intervenants sociaux, et les professionnels qui pourraient suggérer des pièces de solution pour régler ces problèmes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15636             On ne retrouve pas de jeunes qui animent des émissions traitant de ces problèmes, qui, d'après moi, comprennent mieux que quiconque ces phénomènes.  Plusieurs des médias communautaires ont la même programmation avec les mêmes animateurs depuis 10 ans ou plus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15637             Malgré que CJWI, ou bien le 1610 AM, qui n'a pas d'émission qui traite de façon spécifique et structurée ces problèmes, mais lorsqu'ils le font, la langue parlée est seulement et toujours en français.  C'est accommodant pour les jeunes, mais qu'en est‑il pour les parents ou les grands‑parents, qui doivent bien comprendre ces phénomènes pour encadrer leurs jeunes et qui ne parlent que le créole?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15638             Je pourrais continuer à vous donner plusieurs raisons pourquoi, malgré la présence de quelques radios communautaires, il existe un vide réel d'émissions valables dans la communauté haïtienne à Montréal, mais je m'arrête ici, tout simplement pour vous dire : Donnez‑nous la possibilité d'aider la communauté haïtienne.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15639             Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15640             MME GRIFFITHS : Merci, Ronald.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15641             We are not focused alone on these two major groups.  106.3 will also offer a service to others that are still unserved or underserved, including the Arabic‑speaking communities, Vietnamese, South‑Asian, Armenian, Romanian, and the French‑speaking African community in Montreal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15642             Our strategy is to provide significant blocks of programs to provide the best service we can ‑‑ to fewer groups, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15643             We constantly hear from advertisers that they want to buy spots throughout the week in certain targeted program segments.  We are building on this strength.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15644             Let us also not forget the additional groups to be added on our existing service, CKDG FM, which the intervenors largely overlooked.  106.3 will open up CKDG FM to grow new language groups and to offer more hours to others, including the Filipino community, drastically nonexistent on Montreal media; the Croatians; the Serbs; the Iranians; Azerbaijanis; and Russian communities.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15645             In addition, importantly, CKDG will offer more programming to Montreal's English‑speaking Black community, which would include Indo‑Caribbean communities and native Montrealers with roots stretching back generations, of course.  This community is significantly underserved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15646             Lisa Joseph has direct experience with programming to this community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15647             Lisa, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15648             MS JOSEPH:  Thank you, Marie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15649             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15650             I am co‑founder and CEO of RASE TV Productions (Reggae and Soca Entertainment Television).  I produce and host the show "In the Zone" on CKDG 105.1 FM and I produce for television as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15651             It is not true, as has been suggested, that the Black community is already well represented on radio.  Our longest Caribbean program in Montreal is a party promotion program literally and the program is not professional, to say the least.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15652             There have been many formal and informal complaints to the station manager and the CRTC about this particular program.  Yet, this is supposed to be a flagship program for the Black community in Montreal in English.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15653             Looking at other programs, there are about 10 hours of other programs for the Black English‑speaking community.  This is mostly not professional quality.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15654             There are no programs on the air in Montreal representing the Indo‑Caribbean population besides "In the Zone" on CKDG.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15655             There are no other programs on the air for Black baby‑boomers besides "In the Zone" on CKDG, no programs that truly reflect Canadian talent such as the "Canadian Reggae Star Competition" which airs on "In the Zone" television and radio programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15656             There are no other radio personalities in Montreal who have made broadcasting their full‑time job.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15657             By 2017, the largest visible minority in Montreal will be the Black population.  We must prepare now for the future.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15658             Right now there is only 1.5 hours on commercial radio representing all Black age groups and origins.  Simply put, we need more programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15659             MME GRIFFITHS : Merci, fille.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15660             We have responded in writing to the interventions we received, so my final comments are brief.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15661             One, we offer a segment of South‑Asian programming.  We see, though, that there are viable alternatives using the AM frequency to meet the specific needs of the South‑Asian community in a comprehensive way in a more traditional ethnic format.  Our approach would work well with such a service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15662             Two, CHCR is financially healthy and ready to launch a new service.  We intervened against a Montreal applicant over two years ago when we were starting up in a CRTC proceeding and some intervenors have pointed to this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15663             A great deal of progress has been made since we started up.  We also have an investor and shareholder who is committed to our success.  We contribute to the Canadian broadcast system with innovating programming.  We now come to you with a good format on CKDG, with Canadian original productions and ad revenue that is growing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15664             Finally, CKDG has shown market share growth over six consecutive BBM books.  The last book showed a decline, except for francophone listeners which tuned into our ethnic programming with a 20 percent increase.  The proof is that our advertising continues to grow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15665             There are problems with BBM measuring ethnic audiences, especially by the book method.  So we see a drop in one book but continuing steady growth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15666             Regarding the 16 percent of the ethnic audience that tunes to ethnic radio, part of our SRG report to you, this is a large figure.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15667             Keep in mind ethnic radio is still largely appointment‑driven, it is not 24 hours a day, many groups are unserved or underserved, and no one says that ethnic groups should be tuning only to ethnic media.  This is not the point of ethnic media.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15668             Sixteen percent probably represents total weekly tuning of over 160,000 people and is close to the readership for ethnic newspapers, which are generally thought of as being read by everyone in the community.  Sixteen percent is not a small figure at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15669             Regarding AVR's comments, I will reiterate that CHCR will cooperate fully with AVR in finding an appropriate technical approach to operating on the second adjacent.  We are looking forward to this project with great anticipation and we would accept the condition proposed by AVR as clarified with the Commission today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15670             Thank you to the Commission, to the Commission staff, for making this hearing process as smooth as possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15671             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mrs. Griffiths.  We don't have any questions.  Thank you very much.  Thank you for attending.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15672             MS GRIFFITHS:  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15673             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mrs. Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15674             LA SECRÉTAIRE : Maintenant, j'inviterais Yves Sauvé.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15675             LE PRÉSIDENT : Monsieur Sauvé, vous...

RÉPLIQUE / REPLY

LISTNUM 1 \l 15676             M. SAUVÉ : Monsieur le président, Monsieur French, Madame Cram, membres du Conseil, bonjour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15677             Mon nom est Yves Sauvé, et je suis accompagné, à ma droite, de M. Michel Mathieu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15678             M. MATHIEU : Re‑bonjour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15679             M. SAUVÉ : Est‑ce que c'est possible, Monsieur le président, de préciser quelques petits points concernant l'équipe de... c'est très court, très bref.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15680             L'équipe de CJVD FM sera composée au début de huit personnes : Yves Sauvé, administrateur et animateur; un journaliste permanent; deux animateurs/animatrices la semaine, réguliers; deux pigistes animateurs/journalistes pour le week‑end; l'équipe comprend aussi deux représentants des ventes, payés à commission.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15681             Alors, il s'agit d'une station modeste mais efficace, dans un petit marché, et les membres du personnel de la station seront à la fois polyvalents et expérimentés.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15682             Je veux rassurer le Conseil que j'ai les moyens d'implanter et d'opérer la station projetée, et que les petits et moyens marchands, fort nombreux dans la région ‑‑ ça été confirmé ce matin par les intervenants ‑‑ vont nous encourager.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15683             Alors, la preuve aussi, c'est qu'on a eu l'appui de toutes les associations de gens d'affaires, et, entre autres, aussi du regroupement des gens d'affaires de Vaudreuil‑Soulanges, il y a eu des lettres d'appui qui regroupent plus de 1 000 personnes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15684             En ce qui concerne les demandes de nos concurrents, International Harvesters prétend qu'il est plus important de desservir Montréal parce que Vaudreuil‑Dorion ne compte que seulement 70 000 personnes.  Sans étude de marché, comment peut‑il prétendre rejoindre 1 000, 5 000, 10 000 personnes?  On ne le sait pas.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15685             Nous, ce qu'on sait, c'est qu'à Vaudreuil‑Dorion, notre marché cible est composé d'un minimum de 70 000 personnes.  Au moment où j'ai préparé la demande, c'était des statistiques... on parle de population de 2001.  Maintenant, il y a eu des augmentations, et ça fait autour de 75 000 personnes comme marché cible dans Vaudreuil‑Dorion et ses villes sours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15686             Maintenant, concernant l'intervention de Neeti P. Ray, aucune étude de marché.  Même chose.  Comment savoir, comment comprendre de cette requérante, comment analyser?  Il n'y a pas d'étude de marché.  On ne sait pas à qui il s'adresse.  On ne sait pas combien de personnes.  C'est très vague.  C'est très flou.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15687             Même chose pour M. René Ferron, pour qui j'ai beaucoup de respect, qui est un monsieur qui connaît le monde de la télévision, mais en ce qui concerne... puis je ne veux pas discuter de son projet, c'est un beau projet, mais là aussi, il n'y a aucune étude de marché.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15688             Hellenic câble canadien.  Pourquoi CKDG diffuse présentement en mono?  L'exploitation du 106,3 sera‑t‑elle aussi en mono?  Et concernant la prétention de monsieur Fréchette hier, on a fait des vérifications.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15689             Monsieur Fréchette, qui est l'ingénieur attitré de Hellenic, qui, à un certain moment donné, à la question posée par monsieur le président, est‑ce qu'il y a une fréquence, parce que monsieur Mathieu n'a pas dévoilé la fréquence pour Vaudreuil‑Dorion, alors là, il a donné un chiffre, et puis nous, on l'a vérifié hier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15690             Je demanderais à notre conseiller en radiodiffusion de donner des précisions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15691             Alors, Michel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15692             M. MATHIEU : Suite à cet énoncé, on a pris deux décisions.  La première décision, je l'ai prise à l'audience.  J'ai téléphoné à M. Doug McCauley (phon.), mon collègue ingénieur, et on a vérifié la fréquence que monsieur Fréchette nous a identifié, le 101,3, et je vais vous identifier la fréquence que nous, on avait trouvé, qui est le 100,1.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15693             Dans le cas du 101,3, il faut protéger une station à Montréal, CIVL, une radio communautaire.  Alors, le site d'émission est sur le stade olympique.  On est premier adjacent.  Il faut le protéger d'une façon telle qu'il faut être ‑11 dBk, c'est‑à‑dire ‑11 dB en bas d'un kilowatt.  Ça veut dire que la puissance maximale qu'on pourrait utiliser dans le mode omnidirectionnel sur cette fréquence‑là, c'est 80 watts.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15694             Évidemment, on n'a pas pu faire une étude hier soir avec des antennes directionnelles et tout et tout, mais on sait une chose, la géographie étant ce qu'elle est, ça veut dire un site entre Vaudreuil‑Dorion et le West Island de Montréal, et pour avoir fait des recherches, Yves et moi, avant de vous présenter la demande, ce n'est pas évident.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15695             Le 100,1, c'est la même histoire.  Il y a une station dessus à Trois‑Rivières qui contribue un niveau d'interférence nettement supérieur à ce que nous, sur 106,3, on reçoit d'une station américaine à Vaudreuil‑Dorion.  Même situation, mais là, la station à protéger est plus proche, elle est à Ville LaSalle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15696             Alors, je peux vous dire une chose.  On peut trouver des fréquences à 50, 60, 80 watts, que si je m'impliquais en plein milieu de Vaudreuil‑Dorion, je vais peut‑être desservir une partie de la ville.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15697             Mais je vais vous dire une chose, puis vous êtes sûrement au courant ‑‑ puis j'en ai installé des stations, Monsieur Joly est venu nous parler de diffusion temporaire tantôt ‑‑ avec 50 watts, vous n'avez pas de pénétration de signal.  La pénétration de signal, c'est le point que j'essaie de vous faire.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15698             Si vous mettez un 100, 200, 300 watts sur le Mont‑Royal, vous allez avoir une couverture sur papier, mais quand vous rentrez dans les maisons... en voiture, vous n'avez pas de problème, mais quand vous rentrez dans les maisons, c'est une autre histoire, quand vous voulez traverser la brique puis le ciment puis tout ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15699             Le problème de la station Jazz à Montréal... dans l'audience, on a parlé de difficultés de la station Jazz à prendre son marché.  J'habite dans le quartier Auteuil à Laval.  Je ne suis pas capable de capter Radio Jazz comme du monde.  Pourquoi?  Ils sont à partir du même site que CKDG sur le Mont‑Royal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15700             La seule affaire qui sauve la station de monsieur Coaillier, c'est parce que lui, il diffuse en haut de la tour du Mont‑Royal, complètement en haut du candélabre.  Il y a 8 kW, mais il a un signal décent.  Parce qu'il a la hauteur, il n'a pas les obstacles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15701             Moi, ce que je suis venu vous dire, que ça soit M. Neeti P. Ray, que ça soit International Harvesters, que ça soit Hellenic Cable, monsieur Ferron, c'est tous le même problème, la fréquence donne un rayonnement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15702             On vous a donné des populations.  C'est vrai que c'est plus nombreux en population que ce que nous, on propose, mais nous, on va desservir le monde de Vaudreuil‑Dorion.  Eux autres, ils vont avoir de la misère à desservir le monde de Montréal parce que le signal ne sera pas là.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15703             Et quand on vous donne des populations dans le .5 mV, je vous dis, attention, regardez sur la carte de contour.  On vous a fourni toutes les cartes de contour avec tous mes clients.  Il y a une zone hachurée, puis c'est tout en couleur puis c'est très beau.  Ça, c'est une zone inutilisable à cause de l'interférence reçue, O.K.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15704             Vous avez parlé ce matin avec AVR de problèmes possibles de IBOC.  Bon, IBOC, on ne rentrera pas là‑dedans, mais je vais vous dire quelque chose.  Moi, je suis un praticien, Je ne suis pas un ingénieur certifié, ça été établi.  Je suis sous serment, je reconnais ça.  Mais quand les stations ont des problèmes, c'est moi qu'ils appellent.  C'est moi qui va voir les problèmes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15705             Je vais vous dire quelque chose.  Deuxième adjacent à Montréal, bonne chance!  Il n'y a rien de sûr.  Il n'y a pas de site qui a été établi.  On est en négociation.  Moi, je sais que j'ai une pièce d'équipement que je loue à un de mes amis, parce que lui a installé AVR d'une façon temporaire sur un site, sur une cavité, O.K.  On a mis ça en ondes... il a mis ça en ondes au mois de septembre.  On est au mois de mai, O.K.  On est venu nous dire ce matin, on travaille sur le site.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15706             Malheureusement ‑‑ et je suis désolé pour AVR là ‑‑ mais malheureusement là, quand les négociations sont longues de même, ça ne sent pas bon.  Alors là, on a un problème.  AVR sont venus nous dire, et à raison, que le site de la tour de Bell sur le Mont‑Royal est moins bon que l'édifice de la Tour de la Bourse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15707             C'est évident.  Vous allez manquer la rive sud si vous êtes là, parce que vous avez un nul pour CFEI à Saint‑Hyacinthe.  Techniquement, c'est plus haut.  Vous allez peut‑être avoir un signal un peu meilleur à Laval, mais vous allez manquer le centre‑ville de Montréal, vous allez manquer Brossard, vous allez manquer dans ce coin‑là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15708             Alors, moi, je vous laisse avec ça, mais je vous dis une chose.  C'est vrai que la proposition de monsieur Sauvé, en théorie, elle rejoint moins de monde, mais lui va donner un service, par exemple.  Je pense qu'on l'a vu clairement ce matin avec les interventions.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15709             La fréquence que vous allez donner à Montréal, j'ai eu le plaisir et le privilège que monsieur Ferron m'adresse la parole.  J'ai eu le plaisir d'échanger avec lui, et je vais vous dire une chose, c'est un bon monsieur, on est d'accord, mais je ne lui souhaite pas la fréquence 106,3 parce qu'il n'a rien fait de mal à personne.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15710             Sur ce, je vous salue.  C'est très sincère.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15711             M. SAUVÉ : Est‑ce que vous me permettez, Monsieur le président, de donner quelques explications suite à une question, que vous nous avez posée quand on a fait notre présentation, concernant une condition de licence.  Vous avez sorti le journal, vous vous souvenez, le journal de la région et tout ça, et c'était une condition de licence, bon, pour qu'on ne puisse pas vendre à Valleyfield.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15712             Voici mon explication.  C'est évident qu'on ne désire pas de condition de licence, mais je peux vous assurer qu'on n'a pas d'équipe de ventes, on n'a pas de représentants qui iront solliciter les gens du marché de Valleyfield.  Mais une chose très importante, c'est que ça devient compliquer une condition de licence quand vient le moment de l'appliquer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15713             M. MATHIEU : J'ai vécu ça, ça devient très compliqué.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15714             M. SAUVÉ : Je vais vous donner un exemple.  Supposons qu'à Vaudreuil‑Dorion, il y a, en fait, une chaîne de restaurants qui n'existe pas...


LISTNUM 1 \l 15715             M. MATHIEU : A Valleyfield.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15716             M. SAUVÉ : Non, non, mais à Vaudreuil‑Dorion, c'est‑à‑dire qu'à...

LISTNUM 1 \l 15717             M. MATHIEU : A Vaudreuil‑Dorion, il y a un commerce...

LISTNUM 1 \l 15718             M. SAUVÉ : A Vaudreuil‑Dorion, ça n'existe pas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15719             M. MATHIEU : O.K.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15720             M. SAUVÉ : Supposons qu'il y a un magasin là, et... excusez‑moi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15721             M. MATHIEU : Ce qu'Yves veut dire, parce qu'on en a discuté... on s'excuse.  Je suis quand même son conseiller.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15722             Vous pouvez avoir... et je l'ai vécu dans une demande à Maniwaki.  Vous pouvez avoir des commerçants ou un commerçant à Valleyfield qui offre des services, des produits qui ne sont pas représentés à Vaudreuil‑Dorion, et c'est tout à fait logique...

LISTNUM 1 \l 15723             M. SAUVÉ : Voilà!

LISTNUM 1 \l 15724             M. MATHIEU : ...que ces gens‑là vont venir nous voir pour annoncer, pour attirer les gens de Vaudreuil‑Dorion.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15725             En terminant... je vous retourne à monsieur Sauvé, mais en terminant, vous avez les cartes de contour.  La carte de CKOD nous donne un demi‑millivolt au mètre à Vaudreuil‑Dorion.  Nous, on n'a rien à Valleyfield.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15726             Puis surtout, Monsieur Arpin, avec le bureau de commercialisation de la radio, vous le savez, le meilleur argument de vente, on rentre chez le client, puis on met la radio à la station de radio.  Ça ne sera pas possible à Valleyfield.  Ils ne nous capteront pas, surtout dans les commerces parce qu'on n'a même pas .5 là.  Dans une auto, peut‑être.  Mais on n'a pas .5.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15727             M. SAUVÉ : Et on n'empêche pas, Monsieur le président, CKOD de venir vendre dans la région de Vaudreuil‑Dorion et ses villes sours.  On n'a aucune objection.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15728             M. MATHIEU : Ils ont des droits acquis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15729             M. SAUVÉ : Ils ont des droits acquis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15730             Maintenant, est‑ce que vous me permettez juste une petite précision?  Excusez.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15731             LE PRÉSIDENT : Juste pour spécifier.  En fait, je comprendrais que votre... vous me le donner comme complément d'information sur votre présentation, mais ça serait aussi la réplique que vous faites à CKOD, qui a, elle, une intervention formelle au dossier?


LISTNUM 1 \l 15732             M. SAUVÉ : Exactement, à laquelle on a répondu, Monsieur le président.  Vous vous en souvenez, vous en avez sans doute pris connaissance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15733             LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15734             M. SAUVÉ : Est‑ce que c'est possible d'ajouter, concernant l'élément nouvelles... ça va être très bref.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15735             LE PRÉSIDENT : On est à la phase de répliques.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15736             M. SAUVÉ : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15737             M. MATHIEU : Oui, mais il y a certains requérants qui ont...

LISTNUM 1 \l 15738             M. SAUVÉ : Hellenic tantôt ont eu l'occasion, Monsieur le président, d'y aller abondamment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15739             LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui, oui, mais vous avez déjà consommé 10 minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15740             M. SAUVÉ : Juste rajouter ‑‑ si vous me permettez deux secondes, Monsieur le président, s'il vous plaît ‑‑ que les informations concernant les sources de nouvelles se trouvent dans notre demande.  C'est la même chose aussi pour ce qui concerne... c'est ça, les sources là, toutes les sources, tout ce qui a trait à l'information fait partie de notre demande.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15741             Je m'excuse parce que c'est un peu pénible, j'ai des douleurs.  Je ne veux pas m'apitoyer sur mon sort, mais c'est parce que j'ai des douleurs, puis lors de la présentation de lundi, j'avais de la difficulté à avoir ma concentration.  Bon, excusez‑moi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15742             M. MATHIEU : En terminant, Monsieur le président, juste mentionner, pour the record, il y a plusieurs, et je répète, plusieurs fréquences AM très bonnes disponibles à Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15743             LE PRÉSIDENT : Écoutez, Monsieur Sauvé, vous avez joué un petit peu le délinquant.  Moi aussi, je vais le jouer parce que j'avais oublié une question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15744             M. SAUVÉ : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15745             LE PRÉSIDENT : Dans votre demande, vous aviez écrit que vous étiez pour diffuser des oeuvres canadiennes de langue française, de langue anglaise, et de toutes les ethnies et cultures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15746             La question que j'ai oublié de vous poser, c'est de quelles ethnies on parlait.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15747             M. SAUVÉ : Bien, c'est en général.  Ça peut être un chanteur, bon, du Québec qui est né ici au Québec, qui est de nationalité asiatique.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15748             LE PRÉSIDENT : Non, mais, en d'autres mots, ce que je veux assurer là, parce que, étant donné qu'effectivement, on a parlé beaucoup de radio ethnique...

LISTNUM 1 \l 15749             M. SAUVÉ : Bien oui, vous avez raison.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15750             LE PRÉSIDENT : ...les deux derniers jours, je voulais m'assurer que ce n'est pas...

LISTNUM 1 \l 15751             M. SAUVÉ : Ce n'est pas une radio ethnique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15752             LE PRÉSIDENT : ...par la bande...

LISTNUM 1 \l 15753             M. SAUVÉ : Ah! pas du tout.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15754             LE PRÉSIDENT : ...un projet pour aller rejoindre des communautés ethniques.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15755             M. SAUVÉ : Non, parce qu'au moment où j'ai fait ma demande, je me doutais qu'il y avait d'autres demandes concurrentes, mais je ne savais pas quelles étaient ces concurrentes‑là, pas du tout.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15756             LE PRÉSIDENT : C'est une question que j'avais oublié de vous poser.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15757             M. SAUVÉ : Elle est très pertinente, Monsieur le président.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15758             LE PRÉSIDENT : Messieurs...

LISTNUM 1 \l 15759             M. SAUVÉ : Merci beaucoup.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15760             LE PRÉSIDENT : ...nous vous remercions.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15761             Nous remercions tous les requérants pour leur patience et pour la qualité de leur présentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15762             Ceci complète la quatrième phase de cette audience.  Nous apprécions votre présence et votre assiduité.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15763             We want to thank you very much for all being here.  We want to particularly mention the high quality of your applications and we appreciate very much your presentations and also to have accepted how sometimes we interrupted you for various reasons, sometimes wrongfully, I will have to admit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15764             Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15765             We will break for lunch.  We will come back.  We still have two applications to deal with this afternoon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15766             On va prendre une pause pour le lunch.  Nous reviendrons à 14 h 00.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1234 / Suspension à 1234

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1410 / Reprise à 14 h 10

LISTNUM 1 \l 15767             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are undertaking the last portion of this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15768             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15769             We will now proceed with Item 20 on the agenda, which is an application by Lee David Weston on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated for a licence to operate a community‑based English‑language digital service in Toronto.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15770             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Lee David Weston.  You have 20 minutes to make your presentation.  Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 15771             MR. WESTON:  Thank you very much.  I think everyone has thanked you for the opportunity to appear.  I am very appreciative of it because I can actually show you things that I wouldn't be able to otherwise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15772             I am going to get to the fun stuff a little bit later in the interesting things, but just a few sort of mechanical kind of things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15773             The first thing I wanted to introduce is that the competition is different for community broadcasters.  You have heard a lot of hearings and things and people are generally approaching it the same way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15774             For us, competition for advertising isn't a big issue, at least not with television, because none of the other broadcasters will want our advertisers.  We know this and you can see this because you can just turn on Toronto television and you don't see small advertisers, not small local businesses.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15775             So we will have competition for advertising, but it will be with radio and it will be with community print media.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15776             Our competition is going to be for content.  This is a concern for us and this is why I want to introduce this first.  We come from a very different direction than other broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15777             In the commercial market, broadcasters end up buying their content and having a contractual agreement for delivery.  The community programming, what you are doing much more is development and it is hard to have a contractual relationship with people for delivering content and stuff like that.  It is not how it works.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15778             Our concern is obviously the other community stations operating in our environment and what we don't want to happen with this licence is we do a great job of doing development in the community and Rogers gets a lot of really good programming.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15779             So this is very important and this is where we are really coming from a different perspective of many other broadcasters who are looking at advertising as the big competitive issue.  Then there is bidding certainly for programming.  But again, it at least follows like a contractual kind of thing and you have some expectation for your work that you get some return.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15780             This also becomes very much how we structured a lot of things in our licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15781             So the first question of this is:  Are we competitive with Rogers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15782             Well, we are not competitive with a BDU.  There are lots of advantages that they have.  What we are looking for ultimately is are we close enough to do it?  We think if we are on a slightly disadvantage that Rogers will probably maintain their approach.  We understand their approach and we understand there's a space to go into.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15783             So quickly, I mean just to go over the advantages BDUs have, they have more money.  It partially has to do with the licence size.  It is also I don't think you can ever develop, on the kind of program we are talking about, the kind of revenue that they are deriving from their 2 percent.  They have their network exemption and they have the network to take advantage of it.  They use local avails, carriage on basic cable.  So there is a bunch of things that they do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15784             They also have some future plans, Video‑on‑Demand and possibly becoming a second‑tier network.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15785             So we are looking at it as when a community producer is coming to us or looking to place their programs, where are they going to place them?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15786             One thing that makes a lot of difference to the independent community producers is the audience they may get or they may not get.  Why I wanted to introduce this, although it is in the supplement, is we have proposed something a bit unusual.  It confused the staff a bit.  I understand why and I just want to talk about it and explain it fully.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15787             We were advised to apply for a portion of the city, which we have done.  We then went out and talked to people and said, "Okay, given a choice between all of Toronto on analog only on Rogers or on digital cable only, only for a third of the city for all the BDUs, which would you choose?"

LISTNUM 1 \l 15788             Everyone we asked ‑‑ at the moment this would only be practising Bell ExpressVu for Condos.  If this comes up again it may confuse people with things.  Bell ExpressVu for Condos is a very specific BDU not to be confused with Bell ExpressVu Satellite.  It certainly confuses the public.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15789             They all said, you know, "We want to be on Rogers."


LISTNUM 1 \l 15790             So we kind of looked at this and we said okay.  A long time down the road when the CRTC has licensed the whole city, the problem sort of solves itself for us, because you can get carriage on the independent community stations across the city provided you can convince all the community stations in the city to carry you.  Whether it is appropriate to carry the thing, they like it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15791             What do we do in the meantime?  So what we suggest is that we would like to use the rest of the city until you license it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15792             Now, we will lose portions of the city, but the independent community producer won't.  So this is how we manage to be competitive in the eyes of the independent community producer while actually maintaining this area that we were advised it would be appropriate to apply for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15793             Now, this is where it causes problems because we think back to the 2000‑340 ruling, the previous application, and there was a great concern over ‑‑ the reason for turning it down was Scarborough‑specific content across the city.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15794             That is absolutely not what we are talking about.  We are talking about initially servicing all of the city and cutting back as other licences occur.  People sort of go, "Wow, that's kind of weird, like a huge amount work."  Actually, it isn't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15795             For a lot of the things we are doing, our promotion, we will end up covering the city.  One of the advantages ‑‑ I mean, we talk about selling our own advertising.  Most of the media cover Toronto and plus, so if we are out hustling to try and get a radio interview to get our station known, or trying to get on Breakfast Television ‑‑ I don't know how CHUM will actually react to that, but they might be positive ‑‑ all of those activities will cover the whole area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15796             At the beginning, programming is going to be scarce on the ground, so it is not like we are going to get overwhelmed with the programming we are getting from the other areas.  In a way, it is actually making it easier for us because when you sort of go like, "Okay, I think we're short of programming", do you go back and hit the same sources trying to encourage more people or do you ‑‑ you know, if you can go somewhere else it is better.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15797             Then some of the big resources are basically citywide when you sit there and you talk about like Humber or the Toronto Film School or something like that.  If you divided it into three areas, you can't really say they are in‑market or out‑market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15798             So we would service the whole area initially.  We will be doing most of the work no matter which of the sizes you give us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15799             So I wanted to make clear that we are not talking about what was back in 2000.  Our reason for doing this is to hang onto these independent community producers to get the content in the first place, because the most important thing to us is the content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15800             It will come up somewhere as we are talking about things, this is going to be the first time, both in this decision and in the Rogers decision, the 2002‑61, paragraph 36, which is the thing talking about Toronto, Montréal and Vancouver is considered.  There is some confusion about it and I just wanted to point out where I think some of the confusion comes from.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15801             The actual regulation uses in it "in Toronto", "metropolitan centers such as Toronto", "in Greater Toronto".  Those are all different sized areas.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15802             I'm not sure we need to talk about the different sized areas, but Rogers, Bell and ourselves have taken different views on this, as it will come up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15803             Our view partially is that locality is a property of the programming so it really shouldn't matter who is broadcasting it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15804             That is kind of the boring part of what I wanted to say.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15805             What I would again emphasize to the Commission, because it is different to what you are used to with other broadcasters, is our primary concern is competition for independent community producers.  So we want to be competitive in their eyes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15806             The decisions that you have, both with this licence, with Rogers, with some stuff that is coming up, can change that a lot.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15807             Well, just remember that is where we are coming from.  Now, good.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15808             What the station is supposed to do and what the Commission asked us to do explicitly is to complement the BDU's service.  This is kind of a challenge in Toronto.  Rogers Television is about 40 years old.  It is the largest, richest, most sophisticated community television station in the country.  Simply offering a poor man's version of this wouldn't really, in our opinion, have complemented it.  So we have taken a very different approach.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15809             When Roger speaks, they will criticize our approach.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15810             We are very much saying that the two approaches together complement each other ‑‑ I'm pausing for a second because I'm just a little bit worried about your procedures and when you want someone to refute something and not refute something.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15811             Our proposal will meet the needs of many people in Toronto.  I think that for a lot of people they will be very happy with it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15812             There will be people who would be better suited to going to Rogers and doing their production at Rogers.  We are not trying to replace Rogers or say that that is inappropriate.  We are trying to say that for a lot of people this is a good solution and rather than having two stations taking the same approach, one of which will always have less money, which will be us, we have taken a very different approach, one that is based very strongly in one of the key things in 2000‑261, the independent community producer.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15813             MR. WESTON:  Why did I bring this giant beast over here?


LISTNUM 1 \l 15814             This is the latest and most advanced state of television technology ‑‑ well, it was in 1972.  It has a single picture tube which was revolutionary at that time.  Sony describes it as "portable".  I brought it from Toronto and I can assure you that ‑‑ yes.  Well, they meant "portable" in the fact you can put it in the trunk of a car, which is why I drove.  I think have a tear in my suit where I was lugging it in here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15815             It is not just the camera.  This is an early seventies camera.  This is when community television was really getting started in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15816             I'm not going to talk to you about technology.  I don't want this to be about technology, but it is an approach to technology.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15817             That camera also dictates a whole bunch of other things that you were going to do in 1972.  Behind the camera, sort of where I'm sitting, would be something to record it, probably open reel stuff, and you edited it with nonlinear editing, which can be painful.  So you wanted to avoid that.  So the sensible thing to do was to go to multi‑camera shoots, typically three cameras; the picture we all have of the director sitting there on the switcher picking which camera, talking to the camera guys.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15818             That avoided the editing problem and it also dictated that you were in a studio.  A bunch of other things actually pushed you into the studio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15819             Cameras like this like a lot of light, so you need big trusses and you hang your lights off there, and then you make sure that nobody rearranges the lights when you are not in there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15820             There are other things as well.  You ended up doing makeup and stuff, but you had a general way ‑‑ this is the general way of doing it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15821             The next problem with the next thing that you decided, now that you were doing multi‑camera shoots you wanted to do relatively long segments, say a seven‑minute segment.  It is very hard for an amateur to make seven minutes of television without making a mistake.  I mean, the on‑air talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15822             So what you tended to move towards was semi‑professional and professional interviewers and then community people as guests.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15823             I'm looking behind me to see who is there from Rogers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15824             I'm not talking about Rogers specifically.  In fact, it is not even Canada specifically.  America was doing the same thing.  This was the general way that you did community television because you had to.

‑‑‑ Pause


LISTNUM 1 \l 15825             MR. WESTON:  This camera beats that camera every which way around, but it is not the only thing that would change about it ‑‑ oh, before I go too much further, it is very controversial in independent television making what is the minimum camera or what kind of camera you should use.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15826             If you don't like this camera, this is the ideal camera to use.  Whatever you think the ideal camera is to use, that's it.  I'm not recommending a specific piece of technology.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15827             When you come to a camera like this, after the hearing I could go out on the front steps, shoot some people leaving the hearings, do some kind of interview, take it back to my hotel room, use this computer to do the nonlinear editing on it.  I could fix up the sound with sound tools, do all the titling, voiceovers.  Tomorrow I could have a finished segment about this hearing kind of stuff, all in the relative discomfort of my hotel room.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15828             So why would I want to do this?  Why is this important?


LISTNUM 1 \l 15829             Well, in that sense it isn't.  What it is, is if you can do it in the relative discomfort of your hotel room, the community can do it in the community.  This is really what has not happened in community television.  The technology has changed and the BDUs have made some progress, but largely they work the same way as they did back when this was height of technology.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15830             What we are talking about in our application is taking advantage of the fact that people are making this stuff; they are doing these things.  Largely they are doing it outside of the community television set‑up, outside of the structure that we have set up for them.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15831             MR. WESTON:  That brings me also to the whole point of volunteers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15832             Back in the time of this TV, or this camera, the community stations were struggling to get set up and they were short of volunteers.  In the 1980s they testified they were short of volunteers; in the 1990s they did.  In 2002 they did and the CRTC didn't entirely take that.  Today you still see in the hearings that they are saying they are short of volunteers.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15833             Now along comes YouTube.  I don't want to take YouTube too far, but what YouTube proves to me, and I think to a lot of other people, is that whatever reason they are short of volunteers it is not because the public isn't interested in self‑expression.  They want to express themselves.  It isn't that they are not interested in community expression.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15834             We are not offering them what they want, so they are going and putting things on YouTube.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15835             MR. WESTON:  Yes, we will go on to this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15836             I would also say that Rogers has recognized YouTube too, and they have come up with their Video on Demand idea, which I think of them as responding to YouTube.  I think of it as completely backwards.  They are taking their same all model of their sort of studio based presentation kind of thing and they are going, okay, we will put it on Video on Demand and it will be like YouTube.  And you go no, you have missed the point here.  You want to adopt what YouTube is telling you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15837             YouTube is telling you the public does have an interest in creating this stuff, they do have skills to do it.  You want to make it so that they can submit.  You work with them, rather than getting them to work with you on your old model.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15838             I just want to see ‑‑ okay.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15839             THE SECRETARY:  I'm sorry, Mr. Weston.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15840             MR. WESTON:  Yes...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15841             THE SECRETARY:  Your time is almost over.  Can you conclude?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15842             MR. WESTON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15843             I'm going to show you some things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15844             I am looking at the Commissioners.  Do you people know Regent Park, if I say that word?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15845             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15846             MR. WESTON:  All right.  Regent Park could be described as "the projects".  It is the oldest housing project in North America.  You should be very glad that you do not live there and even more glad that your children don't.  It is being fixed by the city, but it has taken them 50 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15847             This is a clip from what is called "Regent Park TV".  I'm just going to play you their promo.  They do this on ‑‑ this is on YouTube.  This has been taken off YouTube.  So why don't I just play it to start with.

‑‑‑ Technical difficulties / Difficultés techniques

LISTNUM 1 \l 15848             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Weston...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15849             MR. WESTON:  Yes, I'm sorry.  I'm going to stop.  This is really discouraging.  I was in here on Monday and I had this working.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15850             These are clips that people in this housing development are making.  They are fairly good.  They are not ‑‑ well, actually they are good and you would be very impressed with them and they are of a community television standard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15851             I was going to say ‑‑ I realized I wasn't going to have time to do it ‑‑ "Ed the Sock" goes and covers exactly the same turf and you can tell that Citytv does a better job than these guys.  But they are actually producing community television level stuff on their own.  There is a small city grant to do it.  And are putting it out on YouTube.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15852             There is a lot of people doing this kind of stuff.  I thought this was pretty exciting because it is well‑known as one of the worst places to live in Toronto and they are managing to achieve that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15853             I guess I will have to stop and we don't get to see that part of the dog and pony show.  Oh well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15854             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Weston.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15855             Commissioner Cram...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15856             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you, Mr. Weston.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15857             The only Regent Park I know is the one in London where the zoo is, so maybe I'm happy I didn't see that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15858             We are going to talk about your proposed service and a lot of these are going to be regulatory issues that concern us from the point of view of what somebody from the other side of the TV would see.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15859             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15860             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You have agreed to a COL of 60 percent local programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15861             MR. WESTON:  I took basically what you had written down.  I did notice in the previous applications that people had put it up to 95 percent Cancon and you put it back to 80.  So I just took whatever was in the regulation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15862             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I am really going to ask you to listen to my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15863             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15864             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You have agreed to a COL for 60 percent local programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15865             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15866             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  That is defined as:


"station productions or programming produced by community‑based independent producers that reflect the particular needs and interests of the residents of the City of Toronto."

LISTNUM 1 \l 15867             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15868             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What kind of programming am I going to see on the screen?  Am I going to see cartoons?  Am I going to see comedies?  What am I going to see?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15869             MR. WESTON:  What I anticipate you seeing is a lot of stuff coming out of the arts community and advocacy stuff, which is basically the mainstay of a lot of other community programming.  It is really the direction of where it is coming from.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15870             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  "Advocacy", what you mean by that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15871             MR. WESTON:  I am thinking of how to say it.  People talking about what interests them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15872             I'm a little bit ‑‑ I can't say "advocacy" is "advocacy", but people talking about what interests them.  It might be talking about global warming and what they can do in Toronto about it; it might be youth‑based issues.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15873             We are getting to a stage ‑‑ what everybody should dislike is TV shows which are radio with pictures.  That would be advocacy at its worst, is people talking about what they want and not taking advantage of the fact it is visual media.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15874             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right, talking heads at its worst.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15875             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15876             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  This programming will not include infomercials?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15877             MR. WESTON:  I think actually we put down in our thing that we would do infomercials in the evening, but we weren't really planning on doing it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15878             I think you ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15879             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  But if I'm right, it is not even Canadian content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15880             MR. WESTON:  You mean the 60 percent local and during the day?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15881             I'm a little bit confused.  Could you ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15882             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Infomercials are not Canadian content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15883             MR. WESTON:  I understand that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15884             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  So you may have infomercials?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15885             MR. WESTON:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15886             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Corporate videos?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15887             MR. WESTON:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15888             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No.  Promotions?  Promotional videos?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15889             MR. WESTON:  I am not quite understanding how that is different from a corporate video.  But if I am understanding what you are saying, the answer is no.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15890             I guess where I would add to that is we are very sensitive to ‑‑ you asked us a question about imbedded sponsorship or alternative sponsorship.  We are very sensitive to the fact that this is something we are going to have to watch out for and that you don't want the tail wagging the dog.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15891             I'm sure people are going to try that and it is not going to be a trivial thing for us to figure out.  You know, if somebody is getting some sponsorship from someone ‑‑ well, I will put another way.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15892             Our goal is that when people are making a show, they are making it for their own reasons.  They are making it for community reasons.  If they can get some sponsorship along the way, that's great.  What we will try very hard to avoid ‑‑ and hopefully we don't ever get tricked ‑‑ is somebody coming the other way around and the corporates actually driving the agenda of the show.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15893             That is something absolutely that we are going to try to prevent and I think we will be fairly successful in preventing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15894             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Would you be allowing brokered programming on your service?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15895             MR. WESTON:  No, we wouldn't.  When you ask the infomercials kind of thing, we put the infomercials thing ‑‑ I think we are allowed to do it and we have put it in ‑‑ as a sort of tool to deal with the previous problem; that if we go to a show where somebody got to the point of ‑‑ you know, we thought the sponsor was trying to take a lead role or something, we would say, "Well, either back off or buy an infomercial."

LISTNUM 1 \l 15896             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15897             So there wouldn't be any brokered programming from religious brokered programming or ethnic brokered programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15898             MR. WESTON:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15899             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So ‑‑ I'm trying to get there ‑‑ it is arts and advocacy.  In terms of advocacy, would it be coverage of seminars, that sort of issue?


LISTNUM 1 \l 15900             MR. WESTON:  First of all, we are taking sort of a less proactive role with telling people what they are going to do.  I wouldn't anticipate that as being a big thing and I don't really see why it would be ‑‑ maybe I am misunderstanding your question.  I can't see why it would be attractive programming and when we would want it from them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15901             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15902             As I read your application, it looked to me like ‑‑ and you talk about the arts, arts, culture, that sort of thing.  What is your evidence of a demand for such a service?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15903             MR. WESTON:  Well, the strongest line that we have taken on this is to quote the Senate.  The catch, which is what Rogers has been asking for, is demographics.  The demographics that other stations would use are almost contradictory to the fact that you are looking at community programming, because the commercial demographic is designed to identify markets for major corporations to sell their products to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15904             We are looking at dealing with small businesses.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15905             On the advertising side ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 15906             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Mr. Weston, we are looking at licensing something that will take capacity away from BDUs, which means money.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15907             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15908             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So we have to see that there is a demand for such a service to justify us licensing it.  So I have asked you the question:  What is your evidence of demand for the kind of arts culture programming that you are proposing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15909             I say that knowing full well that the high ratings go to reality shows these days and that even high production value arts programming is being taken off the airwaves.  CBC has just taken their culture arts programming off their Thursday evenings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15910             So I am asking you for evidence of a demand for this kind of programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15911             MR. WESTON:  All right.  I am going to say that I don't have one, but I don't think that that is the context you should be asking the question in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15912             I wonder if I could give you an alternative answer here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15913             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15914             MR. WESTON:  Which is, we have the quote from the Second Century of Canadian Broadcasting.


"More often than not important cultural and civic events, as well as local drama, comedy, sports and music are not broadcast.  An entire layer of Canadian life and experience is missing from the screens and the airwaves."  (As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 15915             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Why would people program that if there is no viewership of it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15916             MR. WESTON:  Well, that is the point and that is why I understand we are in the community category.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15917             I would turn your question around and look at 3.1(b) of the Broadcasting Act, which says there is public, private and community broadcasting and say that is the reason that you are broadcasting it, and that the driving thing for community broadcasting is this statement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15918             The driving rationale for community broadcasting is it's about self‑expression and it's about community‑expression and that we have here the justification for the fact that there is insufficient self‑expression and community expression.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15919             Now, I have discussed with community print media and some television people about the ability to reach the advertising levels, the market share and the levels that we are looking at, and there is some confidence in that.  I don't know if that answers your question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15920             But the very precept that ‑‑ I don't want to be on the idea of giving you an answer where I'm saying I'm going to make more money for Rogers or we are going to get a comparable audience than a commercial station, because we are not.  We know that right off.  Our market share is going to be very small and we can't justify on the basis of capacity that we would get, you know, as many viewers as SpikeTV or even The Shopping Channel.  The Shopping Channel probably outdoes us and it contains no programming whatsoever, as far as my understanding is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15921             So our rationale in competing is we are in the Broadcasting Act as a category with, you know, private, public, community, and we have identified the fact ‑‑ or an official report of the Department of Heritage has identified the fact that there is a shortage of local expression and community expression.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15922             So this is where we feel that we justify the carriage.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15923             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  So by licensing what we have licensed we haven't covered the field sufficiently, in your view.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15924             Is that your answer?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15925             MR. WESTON:  Well, I only question, when you say "my view" is ‑‑ I will read you the quote of the official report from the Department of Heritage and you will have to make that determination.  But it's not me saying it; it is the report I'm quoting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15926             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15927             I am going to get up in the morning, I am going to turn on my TV and I am going to tune into you and I am going to see in the morning, if I understand you, something quieter ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15928             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15929             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  ‑‑ and then as the day goes on, louder.  And it will be arts, culture and advocacy.  Is that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15930             MR. WESTON:  That is primarily what we would expect the community to produce.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15931             If someone comes up with scripted drama, that's great.  I'm not expecting a lot of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15932             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  These arts and culture things, you are not talking the Hummingbird Theatre; you are talking smaller plays, smaller ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 15933             MR. WESTON:  Absolutely.  I don't know which way around you are coming at that, but I am going to say it both ways around.  What a lot of people think of as sort of second tier, third tier, you know, maybe it's almost community theatre, in Toronto is ‑‑ in Toronto if you went to another centre, someone might go as professional theatre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15934             And at the same time something like the Lion King, as far as I'm concerned, it isn't arts or culture; it's spectacle.  But we are not talking about that at all, no.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15935             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  I am going to use an example that I know because I'm from Regina.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15936             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15937             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Every year our symphony has an outdoor concert.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15938             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15939             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  We have lots of people to come and lots of kids and they play classical and they play The Lion King.  It would be that sort of thing that you would be proposing to cover, or what?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15940             MR. WESTON:  Okay.  That would never get covered from rights issues and stuff like that.  Plus if it's anything like the Toronto Symphony, the Toronto Symphony is also union and I'm not quite sure where that would get us.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15941             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  So let's go into ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15942             MR. WESTON:  I'm not understanding really what you are asking.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15943             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I want to go into the rights issues if you are talking about it anyway.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15944             These would be cultural events for which there would be no copyright existing or for which you would pay no broadcast rights fees.  Is that right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15945             MR. WESTON:  Again, we are going to be relying heavily on the independent community producers to decide what they are going to do.  The kinds of music that they most commonly are going to be able to access is going to be public domain.  So if it's the symphony, if it's a really, really dead guy, it's public domain.  Or music from people they know in the city.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15946             It is possible ‑‑ and I know people who have done it and I think I have done it myself ‑‑ to license stuff from commercial sources.  It's a lot of work.  I would never recommend it for a community TV show because by the time you have sorted out the rights and done it, you will be six months into it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15947             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So when you say you are not going to pay any copyright fees ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 15948             MR. WESTON:  I said broadcast fees.  Well, copyright fees, I mean we will pay SOCAN.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15949             Oh, we are not going to pay synchronization fees and what goes to CMRRA.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15950             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15951             MR. WESTON:  That will be up to the independent community producer to work out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15952             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  So any issues of copyright that would accrue to the producer are their problems.  Is that fair to say?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15953             MR. WESTON:  Yes, it is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15954             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  You are not going to pay any broadcast rights.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15955             MR. WESTON:  No, and that is standard in the community television field.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15956             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What about any limitations on the number of repetitions or anything like that?  Are you going to have any deal with the producer?


LISTNUM 1 \l 15957             MR. WESTON:  Of course we will have a deal.  I think we said we will have a standard ‑‑ the standard thing will allow us just for, you know, broadcast for a short period and we would allow people to say, "Do you wanted it broadcast more?" Some people will want as many repeats as they can get and some people won't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15958             If somebody has a special need, like if somebody is doing an interview show and for some reason they get somebody who is well‑known who their management says, you know, "This can only be broadcast once and it can only be broadcast on this day", we would work with someone to work that out, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15959             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Would you be contemplating sourcing some of your material from the internet?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15960             MR. WESTON:  No.  I mean, I can't think why you would do it, but one of the reasons is you are just not going to get the quality.  But also I don't see how you would clear the rights.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15961             I can't see it really being viable myself.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15962             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I think I have it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15963             Cancon, Canadian content, is 80 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15964             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15965             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You have proposed that under production costs of $2,000 we would require no certification.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15966             MR. WESTON:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15967             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You would keep the records provided you by the producer,

LISTNUM 1 \l 15968             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15969             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You would agree to a COL that you would keep these records as delineated in your application and that you would provide them to us on request?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15970             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15971             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15972             I'm not good in math, but it seems to me that you are going to have original programming, the first year 450 hours, up to the fifth year of 1100 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15973             MR. WESTON:  I just want to shuffle papers; but if that's what we wrote down, that's right, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15974             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  Then there is local programming and you said in the first year you are going to have 400 hours of original local programming ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15975             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15976             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  ‑‑ and 200 hours of local first‑run programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15977             MR. WESTON:  Yes.  That sounds right, yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15978             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Where would these be produced and by whom?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15979             MR. WESTON:  Well, they would be produced in Toronto by independent community producers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15980             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  You are confident that you can get this amount of product.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15981             MR. WESTON:  I am confident and I do acknowledge it's going to be a struggle in the first two years.  This is why we were looking at inventory and stuff like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15982             I will say to you right now that we will be taking higher standards ‑‑ yes, we will be applying higher standards as time goes on, which is something you see in commercial broadcasting, too.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15983             It is going to be a struggle because the community isn't conditioned to doing it, isn't used to being able to do this.  We think we can make those numbers.  We think in the first year, like someone who is doing advocacy, we may give them more time to talk.  If they are repeating themselves, we will let them do another show and repeat themselves.  We wouldn't do that in subsequent years.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15984             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So based on that 600 hours, the 400 of original local and the 200 of local first‑run, staff has estimated that to meet your 60 percent requirement over your 24‑hour broadcast day year, that would mean you would need to 5,069 hours of local programming, which would mean it would be 8.5 repeats of that 600 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15985             MR. WESTON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15986             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So that is what I would see on the screen the first year.  I would see eight to nine repeats of music for which there is no copyright or art festivals for which no copyright is held.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15987             MR. WESTON:  Yes.  Just with the copyright thing, there would be copyright.  Music would always be copyrighted and we would encourage people actually who try and bring us stuff which isn't registered with SOCAN to register it with SOCAN.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15988             It would be where you have managed to arrange the copyright with the person.  It's exactly the same as if you were dealing with Bruce Springsteen, except for the fact that the reason you are not dealing with Bruce Springsteen is you won't be able to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15989             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15990             So you expect these producers to authorize you to repeat their work any number of times then?


LISTNUM 1 \l 15991             MR. WESTON:  I suppose, or within a period, yes.  I hadn't worked it out that way that if it is 8.9 repeats, then it would be over a week or over two weeks.  Or in the case that some people want their stuff shown a lot, as much as we can.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15992             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15993             So then I want to talk about your controls.  You have agreed to a condition of licence that you would adhere to industry codes.  Who in the management of your station would be ultimately responsible?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15994             MR. WESTON:  Ultimately, it would be me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15995             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  You would have policies to restrict but not prohibit coarse language and nudity, obviously, and your principle would be that the programming meets government and licence requirements.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15996             MR. WESTON:  Well, as a minimum, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15997             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Initially you proposed volunteer committees to initially review this programming.  Is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15998             MR. WESTON:  That is correct.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15999             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You talked initially about how easy it was to get volunteers in programming.  What about volunteers to evaluate programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16000             MR. WESTON:  That will not be as easy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16001             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What kind of training would you envisage for them?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16002             MR. WESTON:  One of the sources that we are actually hoping to get is people associated with some of the ‑‑ for some of them, is people associated with the various educational things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16003             The sort of carrot for that is that they are going to want to produce material and if they are going to ‑‑ if we let them set up their own committees to review material from their school, we would sort of go "and we want you to review some other materials as well."

LISTNUM 1 \l 16004             This would give them basically easier turnaround in dealing with things.  If there are times when we, you know, don't have a review committee and there isn't staff time, your program is going to wait to be reviewed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16005             So that is one of the sources that we are really looking at for people initially for that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16006             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So you would sort of trust a broadcasting school maybe or, I don't know, Ryerson students to give you programming, but the students or the faculty to ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16007             MR. WESTON:  Someone involved with a faculty and things like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16008             I would also say, I mean, there is a certain amount of commonsense that has to be involved in recognizing that some kind of programming is going to require more attention than others.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16009             I don't want to make light of your questions and stuff, but we are expecting that 90 percent of the programming there is not going to be much of an issue with.  If you are anticipating something that you know is going to be problematic ‑‑ and you can probably anticipate it ‑‑ that we take extra care as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16010             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  So I have it all figured out that it goes to the volunteer committee and then it if there are problems, then it at goes up to your hired staff.  Is that the idea?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16011             MR. WESTON:  That is the idea.  There is actually a deliberate sort of reason for that, as well as the one you might think, which is we don't want people being put in the position where they are being sympathetic with the person who has created it.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16012             So if they were seen to be the person who killed it, they might be hesitant to.  If they just flag it as "we think this is an issue" and then send it to the staff, they will be more likely to flag things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16013             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I was thinking there would be another issue if I were you in my mind with advocacy type of programming.  There would be libel and defamation issues, and it could be get to be quite a little thorny issue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16014             I suppose you would have to be concerned about that also.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16015             MR. WESTON:  That is a concern and I think perhaps you are using a narrower definition of "advocacy" than I am.  I am including someone who wants to talk about bicycling in the city and bicycle paths and stuff like that.  I'm not simply thinking of people who want to say nasty things about George Bush or McDonald's.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16016             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  The other thing is, you said in here that you were going to have a policy, ostensibly because it would be more convenient for your producers, that they could bring ‑‑ if something was slated to be broadcast after 6:00 p.m., they could bring their productions in by noon and you would review it and get it on.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16017             Now that is predicated on having your volunteers ready there and somebody in management, I suppose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16018             MR. WESTON:  This would be specifically for someone who has a weekly show, like something that has been set up in advance and is doing a weekly show.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16019             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16020             I wanted to talk about sponsorship financing.  Do I have it right that you would say to a producer, "Okay, find a sponsor and you also get" ‑‑ do they find the advertiser also, some of the advertisers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16021             MR. WESTON:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16022             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So the producer would find a sponsor, you would find the advertisers, and you would get 20 percent of the revenue from the ads?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16023             MR. WESTON:  No, no.  I think we are completely ‑‑ we are looking at the advertising that we are selling as our business.  That is how we pay our bills.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16024             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16025             MR. WESTON:  The sponsorship is a way for them to help make their production costs.  It is also something to be competitive with Rogers, because Rogers offers that.  This is coming back to being competitive with the independent community producers.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16026             I would like to be able to say okay, they keep 100 percent of the sponsorship.  There are a couple of reasons for not saying that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16027             One is that what we are actually doing is selling advertising.  That is our advertising to do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16028             Another reason is, I don't want them lowballing the amount that they are selling their sponsorship for because it is actually going to be a pain in the neck for us to do.  It is going to disrupt our advertising sales.  The systems that we are looking at for scheduling advertising aren't that sophisticated.  Unfortunately, the sophisticated systems are more than our annual revenue.  So there is a bunch of manual work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16029             So if someone sold a sponsorship for $50, it would be a real pain in the neck for us to deal with it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16030             I anticipate in the first year or so probably not even retaining any of it, but we would in the future, or we might in the future.  So it is put down there because I don't want to do something and then, you know, come back to the Commission and do it.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16031             But that is our thinking.  It is a lot of work for us.  It is a lot of work for us to do potentially, especially if, you know, the sponsorship is wrong or something.  They are going to call us, whoever has provided the sponsorship clip, or I guess we are going to call them and say your 36‑second sponsorship clip is 37 seconds, or whatever it is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16032             So we can get roped into a fair amount of work on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16033             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  So the producer finds the sponsor?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16034             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16035             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  The sponsor has to pay a minimum amount?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16036             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16037             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  The sponsor pays that minimum amount to...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16038             MR. WESTON:  They would pay it to us and we would ‑‑ what we would see is they would pay it to us and we would remit it to the independent producer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16039             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So you would do the billing and collection.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16040             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16041             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16042             MR. WESTON:  Really, we are looking at it as a service for the independent community producer, is that we are doing that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16043             I also think in the terms of like initially there is going to be a fair ‑‑ well, throughout the thing, a fair number of people are probably going to get angel sponsors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16044             Do you know what I mean?  Like a sponsor who is someone's daddy is Vice‑President of a big corporation.  They probably wouldn't want to write the cheque their Son Inc. production company.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16045             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So you would say you would get 20 percent of the revenue of that sponsorship?  Do I have that right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16046             MR. WESTON:  If you have worked it out as 20 percent, that's fine.  It is a fixed amount.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16047             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16048             MR. WESTON:  We are taking a fixed amount basically to recover our costs and, at least on the single issue sponsorship, to prevent people from like selling them for $20.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16049             But if somebody goes out and finds themselves a $25,000 sponsor, whatever we have said we are going to take ‑‑ oh, yes, we did that example.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16050             If we are taking $1,000 and they have gone and found themselves a $25,000 sponsor, we are still only going to take $1,000.  We are not doing this to try and make money out of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16051             I did work out somewhere, it is a very small percentage of our revenue that this sponsorship thing does.  It is to protect us really from people going out and doing a whole bunch of really cheap sponsorship deals and undermining our commercials.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16052             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16053             If I understand it correctly ‑‑ and it looks like I don't, but I will keep going.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16054             If I understand it correctly, that program will only run once with the sponsor as sponsored.  Thereafter, on any repeats it will run with ads.  Do I have that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16055             MR. WESTON:  That would be the intention, yes.  If somebody wants to do more, they can.  We can work something out, but that would be the primary intention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16056             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16057             MR. WESTON:  I would ask you to remember that what we are talking about is sponsorship outside the program time.  Like Rogers, when they run things, they actually can schedule the sponsorship inside the show.  We can't do that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16058             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  Then there are program grants that you are going to be giving to ‑‑ can I call it potential producers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16059             MR. WESTON:  Yes, if you like.  I'm hoping that ‑‑ I'm assuming that they will ‑‑ yes, if you like.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16060             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Because you say you may never get the programming, you know, that you advanced the money for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16061             MR. WESTON:  Okay.  Rogers picked up on that too and I think there is far too much emphasis put on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16062             The reason that we did this is that myself, Mr. Sladek(ph) have both been directors of charities, which is a foundation ‑‑ and there is a specific meaning to foundation.  So we are fairly sensitive to the word "grant".  And we were really trying to explain how we use the word "grant" in this case.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16063             But what we have said is quite true.  If you are dealing with a little independent producer and he said he needed $500 to do something and we never get the result, there is not really practically much we can do about it.  That's all we are saying.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16064             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And the amount that you will be giving out in these grants is ‑‑ I thought it was $25,000 the first year and 10 percent of gross thereafter.  Am I right on that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16065             MR. WESTON:  Yes.  And we have put $25,000 in the year before the first year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16066             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So it's 25 the year before launch, 25 year of launch and 10 percent of gross revenue thereafter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16067             MR. WESTON:  Yes.  And in fact I think there might be ‑‑ well, actually I will tell you the way we are looking at it, which is actually even a bit better than that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16068             The year before launch in the first year is $50,000 and each subsequent year we are planning on paying $50,000 or 10 percent of gross whichever is larger.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16069             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  And you would agree to a COL to that effect?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16070             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16071             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16072             And you would agree to a COL to provide us with annual reports on the disbursement of the monies?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16073             MR. WESTON:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16074             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Now, distribution.  Your financial projections are based on distribution with whom?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16075             MR. WESTON:  You are asking me which BDUs?  Well, at the moment Rogers is the only one that matters.  I mean, we have put down Bell ExpressVu for condos but they have a very small market share.  And we have put down Bell's ‑‑ and I don't know what they are calling it: their 2004‑496 application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16076             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Their telco cable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16077             MR. WESTON:  Yes.  Which might be big 10 years from now or five years from now, so we have put it down.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16078             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Tell me ‑‑ and you know you are only entitled to a must offer on terrestrial BDUs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16079             MR. WESTON:  Absolutely, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16080             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And it is your assertion that Bell, Bell ExpressVu for condos, is terrestrial?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16081             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16082             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And you base that on...?


LISTNUM 1 \l 16083             MR. WESTON:  First of all, how Bell ExpressVu for condos ‑‑ I'm just going to call it for condos if no one minds ‑‑ came about was they had the Bell ExpressVu licence, the satellite licence, and they wanted to offer a terrestrial service.  But they didn't apply for a terrestrial BDU licence.  They added it on to their satellite licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16084             At that time this policy didn't exist so it really wasn't something to consider.  2002‑61 didn't exist.  The way we look at it is it is terrestrial; it runs on wires.  There is a local head‑end.  Why wouldn't it apply to us?  Why wouldn't we be able to apply for it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16085             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You are proposing that your coverage would be by postal codes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16086             Now are you aware whether or not Rogers condos or Bell telco cable would be capable of doing that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16087             MR. WESTON:  They were specifically advised to apply that way by Commission staff, who indicated that their understanding was that that is how it would work and that this was the way that they could divide up the city in an arbitrary way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16088             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So you don't know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16089             MR. WESTON:  We have not looked into it beyond that, no.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16090             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So you are going to end up like, I'm going to say ‑‑ well you are.  You are going to be a diginet in a discretionary universe, in a digital discretionary universe.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16091             Did you ‑‑ well you are not asking to be put on analog.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16092             MR. WESTON:  Yes.  No, you were using words which I was not familiar with.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16093             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So it is a digital discretionary universe.  The only requirement of the BDUs in question would be that they offer your service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16094             MR. WESTON:  That is not my understanding of the regulation ‑‑ of the policy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16095             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  But you are not going to be over the air, are you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16096             MR. WESTON:  No.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 16097             MR. WESTON:  I'm fairly sure we get mandatory carriage because Bell and Rogers both objected.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16098             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  I have just had a senior moment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16099             Have you looked at the BBMs or do you know the BBMs for RTV on digital?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16100             MR. WESTON:  No, I don't.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16101             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Because it seems to me that it is a different universe; that although you have to be bought if you are to be on basic, it seems to me that people on digital look at their TV totally differently and they search for their TV differently.  They have a different program guide and it's a totally different concept.  You don't have the prominence that you would have had on analog.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16102             MR. WESTON:  I agree with you, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16103             I would actually go a little step further and say that people who tend to subscribe to digital television tend to be more entertainment junkies than people on analog, and entertainment junkies are not the best audience for community television.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16104             So, yes, it is not ideal but this is what you are offering so this is what we have applied for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16105             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And your plans on transmission to the BDU are, if I can say, fuzzy at best.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16106             Can you tell me in your financial projections where the costs are, the expenses?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16107             MR. WESTON:  I am just going to have to flip to that page.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16108             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Look to your application, at pages 8 and 9.  And it is item 4.1.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16109             MR. WESTON:  4.1.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 16110             MR. WESTON:  Okay, I'm there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16111             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So where are your transmission expenses in those projected expenses?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16112             MR. WESTON:  I'm assuming they are in technical.  I'm assuming they are in technical.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16113             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Do they change based on the various scenarios that you laid out, I think three alternatives in your supplementary brief?  Do they go up or down?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16114             MR. WESTON:  Just bear with me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16115             Could you actually tell me where in my supplementary brief?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16116             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You were talking about you could collocate, how you were going to transmit the signal to the BDU.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16117             MR. WESTON:  They don't go up and down if you combine rent with transmission.  In other words, we might be able to say where we save on rent, the transmission will be higher; where the transmission is higher, the rent would be lower.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16118             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So then that is where you have your rent also under technical.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16119             MR. WESTON:  Yes.  And if I could express why ‑‑ I know there is a haziness there and if I could just express why for a minute.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16120             People would be sensitive to the fact that the cost of our transmission will depend on where we locate within the city.  The cheapest place for like doing a collocate or something would be around King and Bay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16121             I used to work in First Canadian Place.  It's a fine place to work.  It's not a good place to run a community television station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16122             There are some really good other options out on Danforth, Danforth and Bloor.  We really want to be near a subway.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16123             But in that case it's going to be a complicated deal to work out, trying to figure out where a CO is or if we can piggyback on someone else and then finding a cheap space at the same time.  And certainly with the Toronto real estate market, you can't really say okay, we are going to start broadcasting in three years.  The only way to get a place is to sign a long‑term lease today.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16124             So if we get stuck, we get pushed towards King and Bay and collocating with somebody.  But that's not where we want to be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16125             I mean, King and Bay is on the subway; it does have that advantage.  But that's the catch.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16126             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So technical includes your rent, utilities.  Is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16127             MR. WESTON:  Now I am wishing I had brought a more detailed budget to do this with.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16128             No.  Rent would be an administration in general, I believe.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16129             I'm worrying about what I just said to you.  My answer is I don't know.  I can't remember where rent was put.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16130             There may have been a distribution of it across ‑‑ for the various purposes of technicals, sales and administration and the different categories.  And that's what I would normally do is distribute the ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16131             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So you would prorate the common costs across the various personnel kind of thing.  Is that right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16132             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16133             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Or the various program, like people, technical, that sort of thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16134             MR. WESTON:  Right.  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16135             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I'm sorry, maybe I have had another seniors moment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16136             In your programming expenses you have cash and non‑cash.  What does non‑cash mean?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16137             MR. WESTON:  Non‑cash is basically the personnel who we have assigned to assist independent community producers.  And why we feel justified in putting that in is for a traditional broadcaster, when they get something, it's a tape and they can air it.  And when we work with an independent community producer, we are helping them get to the stage where we can air the material.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16138             So we put that down as a production expense.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16139             I mean, if we had our own director we would probably ‑‑ would we put it in ‑‑ we would put it in a programming category.  In this case it's our assistance to the independent community producers to get their product ready to air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16140             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So that is time spent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16141             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16142             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  In assisting.  So that could easily be a person in there?


LISTNUM 1 \l 16143             MR. WESTON:  That basically is a person, or whatever.  A prorated person.  I can't remember.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16144             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  Now where is your ‑‑ I'm going to call it CCD, the program grant money?  Yes, program grants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16145             MR. WESTON:  I broke that out much better in one of the letters of clarification.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16146             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Give me a date and I'll get it together.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16147             MR. WESTON:  February 7th.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16148             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  Which page?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16149             MR. WESTON:  I'm getting there.  Page 13.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16150             I hope this is what you are looking for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16151             Why I took you away from that summarized budget is we are also looking at station sponsorship.  We are hoping to actually have the station sponsored, and I think you want to know about what the independent ‑‑ that's lumped in on our summary budget but it is broken out here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16152             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So I am going to look at year two, $61,000.  That would be year two on your projections.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16153             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16154             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Where is that $61,000 expensed out in your projections?

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 16155             MR. WESTON:  I'm just seeing if I was getting this right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16156             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Maybe you can ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16157             MR. WESTON:  When you are looking at the programming line for year two?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16158             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16159             MR. WESTON:  We have broken cash and non‑cash.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16160             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16161             MR. WESTON:  And you see the cash.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16162             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  And then, the next year, 69, 68, 88.  So in fact that programming ‑‑ those programming grants, at least insofar as year two on, are the totality of your cash programming costs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16163             MR. WESTON:  Yes, they are.  Because we put this in second, because we made the commitment of 10 percent after we did this in part of a clarification, we did something which probably we would have done differently.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16164             In one of these years, 10 percent I believe should be $51,800 and we have $50,000 but we had left a contingency there.  So it would come out of the contingency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16165             So in fact year ‑‑ I'm looking at the wrong one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16166             One of those $50,000 is $51,800 with the $1,800 coming out of the contingency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16167             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16168             You were talking about collocating.  You are not planning on having a studio at all, are you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16169             MR. WESTON:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16170             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Do you have any pre‑launch costs, aside from the $25,000 for program grants?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16171             MR. WESTON:  Yes, there are some pre‑launch costs which is basically being the office and setting up and dealing with people, because I mean we need programming to air on day one.  And this is basic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16172             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And you are going to do this all with 2‑1/2 staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16173             MR. WESTON:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16174             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Now that I have heard you, it makes more sense because in year one I am looking at 2‑1/2 staff and I am looking at what may be salaries and it didn't look very good.  But if you have the 40 for the other person in programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16175             So what are the positions that the people are going to be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16176             MR. WESTON:  There will be a station manager.  I don't have ‑‑ I can't remember the title we have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16177             The next person's job is dealing with the independent community producers and to coordinate the review committees.  The station manager's job is going to be to deal with the station managing, the advertising.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16178             It's one of the reasons that we intend to have completely commissioned advertising sales, is to keep the staff down.  It's a small number.  I wish it could be bigger but, you know, we will come to the point where Rogers says well, your staff is too small and your expenses are too low and your revenue ‑‑ whichever way around it is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16179             It is a squeeze to do this kind of programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16180             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16181             MR. WESTON:  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16182             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16183             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Weston, only one question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16184             Again to bring you back to section 4.1, which are of the financial operations, I note that your revenues are suffering a big drop when you arrive at year four.  So what is your assumption?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16185             MR. WESTON:  Our assumption is at that stage you license someone else in the city and our actual carriage area goes down.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16186             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But your expenses are rather somehow stable, so that is why you are incurring a loss.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16187             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16188             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I note also that you are going to be a for‑profit organization, commercial organization, and you will be owning all the shares.  Am I right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16189             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16190             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Who is Mr. Sladek?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16191             He is going to be one of your directors and as a matter fact your treasurer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16192             MR. WESTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16193             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Who is he?


LISTNUM 1 \l 16194             MR. WESTON:  Well, he works as an engineer at Ontario Hydro during the day and has for a number of years.  He is involved in his outside work time in various arts and community oriented things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16195             Right now when you say he is the treasurer, I've been involved in a not‑for‑profit which operates a small community hall and does basically art presentations and some of the advocacy stuff we are talking about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16196             I just fished him into becoming president of that last year because I thought it needed more financial control and structure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16197             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And he will be investing money in the project but will not have shares.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16198             MR. WESTON:  That's right.  He has offered to provide a line of credit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16199             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Who is Isabel Hilda Weston?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16200             MR. WESTON:  The person you borrow money from when no one else wants to lend it to you.  My mother.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16201             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  That's fine.  I understand that.  It does happen, you know.  The story of Québecor.  It all started with $5,000 that Pierre Péladeau borrowed from his mother and now the corporation last year made $11 billion.  So it's got to have a starting point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16202             Also I see a Mr. Christos Peter Cortez(ph), who is going to be a director of your organization.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16203             What type of background does he have?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16204             MR. WESTON:  His background is, in a sense, similar to Mr. Sladek's although he usually tries to avoid becoming a director of like not‑for‑profits and stuff like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16205             He is an electrical engineer.  Right now he is working at Grand and Toy.  He also has a Masters in ‑‑ and I'm trying to remember the word ‑‑ ergonomics.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16206             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And I see yourself, because that's on page 35 of your supplementary brief, that you personally are a business system analyst and programmer with some 20 years of experience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16207             But what kind of experience do you have to make happen the project that you have put before us?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16208             MR. WESTON:  I think the biggest experience that ‑‑ well, you can put it one of two ways.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16209             There are two complete sides as to what has to happen.  One side is to have a small stable business operating, and I think this is in the sort of league of experience I've had of this size of business.  The other side of things is although we are a for‑profit organization, a lot of what we are dealing with is going to be not‑for‑profit or people who are ‑‑ they are not even structured organizations.  Someone wants to make a TV program for some purpose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16210             So I have the background in both those kinds of things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16211             Somewhere, I mean Rogers will get around to sort of ‑‑ like one of the things they said was no experience dealing with volunteers.  For about five years I used to do an event where 400 volunteers reported to me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16212             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Basically, you make the claim that you have the experience to have your project happen and achieve the goal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16213             MR. WESTON:  I believe I have solid experience on both those fronts, which is not all that common.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16214             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16215             Mr. Weston, thank you for this part.  We will hear the intervenor and you will have a chance to come back to reply to the interventions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16216             MR. WESTON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16217             I've got papers spread everywhere so if I could just have a moment.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 16218             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16219             Madame la Secrétaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16220             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed to Phase II in which the intervenor appears.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16221             I will now ask Rogers Cable Communications to appear and present its intervention.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 16222             THE SECRETARY:  Please introduce yourself and you have 10 minutes.  Thank you.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 16223             MS DINSMORE:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16224             Good afternoon, Commissioners and Mr. Chair.  My name is Pam Dinsmore.  I am Vice‑President of Regulatory, Broadband and Video at Rogers Communications Inc.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16225             With me today from Rogers Cable Communications is Collette Watson, Vice‑President responsible for Rogers community channels.  These channels which Rogers operates in Ontario, New Brunswick and Newfoundland are known collectively as Rogers Television or RTV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16226             Also with me is Pierre Fortin, Senior Manager, Production Engineering for Rogers Television.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16227             Mr. Chairman, we are here today to voice our opposition to Lee David Weston's application for a licence to operate a community‑based digital service in Toronto.  Mr. Weston is the first applicant to come forward with a proposal for a community‑based digital service since the Commission's community‑based media policy was released in 2002.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16228             We have reviewed the application and have found it to be deficient in many respects.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16229             On this basis we are quite concerned that the Commission is hearing this application especially given its precedent‑setting nature.  Based on the poor quality of the application, if it is approved, it will set a very low standard for future applications.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16230             Rogers does not take issue with the general concept of community‑based digital media services.  We do, however, believe that the Commission must apply the same rigor in assessing applications for these types of services as it applies to any other application for a mandatory digital service.  At minimum, applications for community‑based media services must meet the criteria for assessment established by the Commission in the 2002 policy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16231             Mr. Weston's application does not even meet this minimal criteria or requirement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16232             When we reviewed Mr. Weston's application we found that his programming proposal and his business plan were very poorly defined.  The Commission should not even consider approving this application unless it is satisfied that the proposed service will meet the objectives of the 2002 policy and will do so based on a sustainable business plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16233             In our view, this application fails on both counts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16234             In its 2002 policy the Commission set out specific objectives for community‑based media services.  These services must provide a high level of locally produced, locally reflective programming that complements and does not replicate programming offered by over‑the‑air television stations and the community channel.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16235             The Commission also set out criteria by which it would assess applications for community‑based media services.  These criteria are quite specific and include a marketplace assessment, minimum Canadian content and local programming requirements, expectations of citizen access and volunteer training and adherence to various industry broadcast codes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16236             Unfortunately, it is impossible to assess the merits of Mr. Weston's programming proposal against the Commission's criteria for assessment.  This is largely because he has provided neither a programming schedule nor any real detail on his programming plans in his application.  Instead, he has merely offered up a string of promises to broadly address the Commission's 2002 policy objectives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16237             Mr. Weston argues the Commission intended that the programming schedule of community‑based digital services would be defined by community producers as they submit their programming.  This would take place once the service was operational.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16238             With all due respect, this argument defies logic.  How can the Commission assess whether Mr. Weston will broadcast programming that complements what is offered by conventional and community TV stations if his program schedule will be determined by community producers at some point in the future?


LISTNUM 1 \l 16239             Furthermore, without some form of programming schedule, how can the Commission assess whether he will meet the Canadian content and local programming requirements for community‑based digital services?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16240             Beyond the actual criteria for assessment that were outlined in the 2002 policy, Rogers believes it is crucial that the Commission also assess the viability of Mr. Weston's business plan.  If his business plan is not viable, it is unlikely that Mr. Weston would be able to meet the Commission's objectives over an entire licence term.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16241             We have examined his business plan and have a number of concerns with it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16242             First of all, we have issues with his budgets.  His projected advertising and sponsorship revenue assumptions are flawed and his proposed operating and capital expenses are inadequate and incomplete.  Most importantly, based on his correspondence with Commission staff, Mr. Weston has not demonstrated a full understanding of the complexity of signal distribution and his obligations in this regard.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16243             Second, Mr. Weston has filed no evidence to show that community producers support his proposed service and would be interested in producing programming for it.  Instead, he simply assures the Commission that informal discussions have taken place and there is interest in the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16244             Many groups and associations that represent independent and community producers are located in Toronto and could easily have been approached for support.  This lack of concrete support is surprising and raises questions about whether Mr. Weston's programming concept will work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16245             Similarly, Mr. Weston filed no evidence to demonstrate that his proposed service would appeal to the citizens of Toronto.  Not even one letter of support.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16246             Again, this lack of demonstrable interest calls into question the viability of his service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16247             And thirdly Mr. Weston and his partners have no experience in operating a television service nor have they provided any evidence that they will hire or otherwise acquire such expertise.  As we have already noted, this inexperience is readily apparent in the projected revenue and expense figures filed with his application.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16248             Given these concerns, we do not believe Mr. Weston's business plan is viable.  As a result, while it is possible he would launch his service if licensed, we have no confidence that his service would be sustainable over an entire licence term.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16249             Why then are we concerned about his service being licensed if we do not think it would survive its initial licence term?  The answer is easy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16250             First of all, it would set the precedent that these services have to meet very minimal requirements in order to get a licence.  As a result, we could find ourselves having to carry a number of community‑based digital services across our network.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16251             Second, Mr. Weston plans to launch his service in 2010 if he is granted a licence.  This means that, whether or not his service is ultimately viable, if it were licensed, we would have to reserve a spot for it in our spectrum plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16252             We would also have to allocate spectrum to it, once it launches, for as long as it is operational.  This raises capacity concerns.  Capacity is a scarce and finite resource and always will be.  Rogers carefully manages our spectrum in order to address the Commission's policy priorities and our customers' programming needs.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16253             Starting in mid‑2004, we digitized our entire analog lineup to enhance customer choice and remain competitive.  We also continue to add new services designed to cater to our customers' broad interests.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16254             We are fully aware that, over the next five to 10 years, conventional, pay and specialty programmers will transition to high definition.  This will consume additional spectrum.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16255             We continue to actively work with industry and suppliers to find technological solutions to meet ongoing capacity demands.  However, the fact remains that there will never be an excess of capacity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16256             Given these capacity demands, we believe any mandatory digital service licensed by the Commission must meet the basic test of long‑term viability.  Simply put, Mr. Weston's proposed service does not meet this test.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16257             A much more viable option for Mr. Weston's service might be to deliver it over the internet.  The online environment is well suited to services that provide niche audiences with hyper‑local content.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16258             This would resolve the issue of signal transmission and provide Mr. Weston with a more streamlined cost structure.  It would also better connect him to his target audience as Internet service has a higher penetration in our licensed territories than digital cable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16259             Since 2002, the broadcasting environment has undergone considerable change.  The Commission is currently reviewing many of its policies and licensing frameworks to ensure they align with these changes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16260             In light of our comments in this proceeding, we believe the 2002 Community‑Based Media Policy should also be reviewed to ensure that community‑based media services appropriately contribute to the broadcasting system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16261             Assessing the actual viability of a service based on the reasonableness of the business plan, evidence of demand and experience of the applicant must be a key consideration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16262             That said, Mr. Weston's application does not meet the Commission's existing criteria for a community‑based digital service and on this basis should be denied.  While his proposed service might warrant a Category 2 licence, it does not meet the higher standard required of a mandatory digital service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16263             Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  This concludes our remarks and we would be happy to answer any questions you might have.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16264             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16265             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay, and this is all about my senior moment ‑‑ briefly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16266             A mandatory digital service does not mean that we require you to put it on your digital basic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16267             MS DINSMORE:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16268             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I am right.

‑‑‑ Rires / Laughter

LISTNUM 1 \l 16269             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So it means it only needs to be carried as discretionary ‑‑ it is like the other Cat 1's, it only has the Category 1's, it only has to be offered on a discretionary basis?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16270             MS DINSMORE:  That is exactly our understanding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16271             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Perfect.  I feel a lot better now.  I am not as mixed up as I was.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16272             Now ‑‑ and I am sorry, sir, I forgot your name, Pierre?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16273             MR. FORTIN:  Pierre Fortin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16274             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And you are one of those people with a ring from the erect bridge.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16275             MR. FORTIN:  Actually, no.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16276             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Oh, no?


LISTNUM 1 \l 16277             MR. FORTIN:  I am not an actual engineer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16278             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Oh!  Can you tell me ‑‑ or have you formed any opinion on the cost that would have to be incurred on any one of the three options that Mr. Weston believes he could use to transmit a signal to a BDU head‑end?  Have you looked at that at all?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16279             MR. FORTIN:  We have looked at it.  We have had to make broad assumptions because there is no capital budget in the actual file documents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16280             But using conservative assumptions, we estimate for a basic channel running a digital server would require $50,000‑$75,000 in initial capital, which could potentially be leased.  That is the equipment portion of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16281             The transmission portion of it is where it gets a little difficult because we estimate a local loop, a connection to Rogers and other BDUs, to cost anywhere between $1,500 and $2,000 a month approximately.  These vary greatly from service provider to service provider.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16282             If you start adding up all these costs, with lease payments and all that, and you look at the technical allocation in the operating budget that was filed, there doesn't seem to be enough money there to cover all these costs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16283             There is an absence of a detailed operating budget, so we don't know how it breaks down.  That is our finding so far.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16284             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16285             Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16286             THE CHAIRPERSON:  To your knowledge, has Mr. Weston approached anybody at Rogers to review his plan before he filed his application?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16287             MS WATSON:  If I may, Mr. Weston has approached us in the past.  When the 2002 policy came out, there is a provision for TV corporations if we don't meet our access floor, they could file and request 20 hours per week, at which point he made an assumption that we didn't meet our access floor and asked for his 20 hours per week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16288             It was clarified for him that we meet and exceed our access floor and while he doesn't qualify for the 20 hours per week, we would be happy to review his program proposal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16289             He submitted program proposals which were arts and music related for which we provided our framework, which includes copyright ‑‑ proof of copyright, ownership and licence fees, and we never heard back from him again.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16290             With respect to this particular licence, he has not approached us with respect to programming content or distribution.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16291             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, ladies, Monsieur Fortin, thank you very much for your presentation of this afternoon.  We appreciate that you have been here spending some hours with the Commission.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16292             We will go to Phase III.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16293             MS DINSMORE:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16294             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed to Phase III where the applicant may respond to all the interventions that were filed on these matters.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 16295             THE SECRETARY:  You have 10 minutes.  Thank you.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 16296             MR. WESTON:  I don't think that Rogers and I are ever going to agree on certain aspects of the revenue and expense side of things.  They have basically said that you won't get that much revenue off this kind of programming, implying that there should be some other kind of programming we are doing, and your staff is too small and things like this.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16297             Rogers has a lot of money to play with and Rogers has said in other cases how much they expect to spend on independent programming and things like this.  They are looking at a larger‑scale approach than we are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16298             What I read in what they are saying is it is a different approach to broadcasting and I don't think it is an appropriate one for a business that has to pay its bills, working in Toronto where there is so much local content but not community expression and self‑expression.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16299             So I am just going to say I disagree with Rogers and I am sure they disagree with me on that point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16300             On the capacity thing, I find that really ‑‑ I am confused on how they calculate capacity when they have a community channel which gets twice the market share that we are projecting and they think that that is good content to put on a video demand service which would require vastly more resources, and even in their discussions about the video demand service in their application they start talking about obsolete concepts of bandwidth limitations and stuff like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16301             So those would be my two primary comments on Rogers.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16302             I would also like to take this opportunity to speak slightly to what Bell had to say and to point out the status of Bell.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16303             It has made this presentation rather difficult and some of the awkwardness is that I changed presentations at the last minute to understand your procedures and to see what is happening with Bell.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16304             Bell, when they applied for the licence that they say they are going to offer a community channel for by 2010, wrote "not applicable" on their entire licence application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16305             You have a letter of clarification which is on file from my intervention back then where they inferred that they were going to rely on independent applications such as this one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16306             The first time one appears they sent in their intervention saying that they in fact now are going to run a community channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16307             So Bell is sitting on a licence area which is larger than Rogers Toronto, much larger than what we have, never having explained what their approach is to how they are going to deal with the very locality issues which they have raised as a concern.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16308             I would also point out that their comment that they are going to run a community channel before 2010, as far as I can tell, is non‑binding.  Had they turned up today, they might have said something to the Commission which would have made it binding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16309             So I find it a very strange situation that the person with the largest licence area for a community channel, the person having public funding, has never explained anything to do with what they are going to air at all or their approach.  The only explanation they have offered in the past turns out not to be true ‑‑ I shouldn't say not to be true, it turns out that they are doing something different than they said.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16310             The final thing I would say about theirs is I don't think that they can launch it by 2010.  If you look at the thing, it is calculated on your previous years' growth for the BDUs.  There's only two years eight months to do it.  If you do the math, they will never have the market share to do it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16311             So it is kind of ‑‑ it is a matter of concern that they made a statement like this and the math looks so wrong and Bell, one would expect, would have the experience to know that they weren't going to have the market share.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16312             So thank you very much.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16313             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I will only say that is something that we will have to deal with in due time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16314             So thank you very much, Mr. Weston.  This ends this phase of your application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16315             We will move immediately to the next item.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16316             MR. WESTON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16317             LA SECRÉTAIRE : Nous procéderons maintenant à l'examen de l'article 21 à l'ordre du jour, qui est une demande présentée par Radio Express en vue de renouveler la licence de l'entreprise de programmation de radio commerciale de langue française CKOD‑FM Salaberry‑de‑Valleyfield, qui expire le 31 mai 2007.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16318             En août 2006, le Conseil a décidé de renouveler la licence de la station pour une période de neuf mois puisque la titulaire n'avait pas respecté plusieurs de ses obligations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16319             Le Conseil a également émis quatre ordonnances exécutoires enjoignant la titulaire de se conformer au Règlement de 1986 sur la Radio et à sa condition de licence relative au versement annuel d'une contribution à des organismes tiers voués au développement des talents canadiens.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16320             Dans le cadre de cette audience, le Conseil examinera si la titulaire a de nouveau enfreint l'article 9(2) du Règlement concernant la soumission de son rapport annuel pour l'année se terminant le 31 août 2006.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16321             Le Conseil s'attend à ce que la titulaire lui démontre les raisons pour lesquelles une nouvelle ordonnance exécutoire ne devrait pas être émise pour l'obliger à se conformer à cette obligation.

AFFIRMATION SOLENNELLE : ROBERT BRUNET

LISTNUM 1 \l 16322             LA SECRÉTAIRE : Vous disposez de 20 minutes pour votre présentation.

PRÉSENTATION / PRESENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 16323             M. BRUNET : Alors, bonjour.  Mon nom, c'est Robert Brunet, président de Radio Express inc.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16324             Je vais être quand même assez bref là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16325             Quand on parle d'un autre manquement au délai de dépôt pour le rapport annuel, en effet, il y a eu un délai additionnel de cinq jours ouvrables.  C'est pour ça qu'on peut dire que j'ai dépassé légèrement.  Ça fait que pour cette partie‑là, je ne peux pas le nier.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16326             Par contre, pour toutes les autres conditions, nous sommes maintenant à date, et nous respectons tous nos engagements, et la situation s'est de beaucoup améliorée depuis la dernière audition en mars de l'année dernière.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16327             LE PRÉSIDENT : Ça complète votre introduction?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16328             M. BRUNET : Ça complète, c'est tout ce que j'avais à dire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16329             LE PRÉSIDENT : D'accord.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16330             Écoutez, Monsieur Brunet, je prends acte de ce que vous venez de dire, et, d'ailleurs, j'ai connaissance, du moins par les notes qui ont été remises, que, effectivement, les conditions de licence et les ordonnances exécutoires qui avaient été imposées ont été rencontrées, sauf dans un cas.  On aura à en parler dans quelques instants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16331             Cependant, je veux quand même profiter de votre présence pour refaire le point sur l'exploitation de la station au cours des neuf derniers mois.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16332             J'ai aussi connaissance par les notes qu'on m'a remises du fait que trois membres du personnel du Conseil sont allés vous rencontrer à Valleyfield et rencontrer votre personnel et faire un état de la station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16333             M. BRUNET : Oui.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16334             LE PRÉSIDENT : Donc, on a, aujourd'hui, une bien meilleure compréhension de votre opération.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16335             Les questions que j'ai, évidemment, découlent en partie de la transcription de l'année dernière...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16336             M. BRUNET : Mm‑hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16337             LE PRÉSIDENT : ...et, effectivement, des ordonnances.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16338             Je voudrais quand même que vous... ce que je voudrais comprendre, quelles sont les actions que vous avez posées pour, effectivement, vous assurer que vous rencontriez les exigences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16339             Ma première question tourne autour de la musique vocale française, puis des pièces canadiennes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16340             Quelle sorte de système avez‑vous mis en place pour faire en sorte que, aujourd'hui, vous rencontrez les exigences et quelles sont les assurances qu'on a que ce système‑là va demeurer?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16341             M. BRUNET : Bien, premièrement, c'est sûr que, depuis un an, on a changé notre système de mise en ondes, qui est maintenant le système WiNRADiO.  On avait aussi un système plus archaïque dans le temps là, avec des bobines VHS.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16342             LE PRÉSIDENT : Mais là, je parle de la préparation du registre musical.  On va parler des rubans‑témoins...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16343             M. BRUNET : Bien, le registre musical, c'est sûr que maintenant, avec le système WiNRADiO, c'est plus facile.  Moi, je ne travaille pas au jour le jour avec, mais, disons, ma directrice de la programmation a mis considérablement d'efforts dans ce domaine‑là, et puis j'ai ici un document qui date du 12 février 2007 qui en témoigne.  C'est les derniers rubans‑témoins qu'on a livrés au CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16344             LE PRÉSIDENT : Justement, j'ai des questions là‑dessus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16345             Effectivement, le Conseil conclut que vous avez dépassé de manière significative même les exigences minimales.  Cependant... et je vais prendre juste un exemple.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16346             Ça me préoccupe parce que, oui, dans le cas de la semaine concernée, qui était du 7 au 13 janvier 2007...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16347             M. BRUNET : C'est ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16348             LE PRÉSIDENT : ...vous avez rencontré substantiellement les exigences.  Là, je regarde, on a du 79 pour cent de musique francophone, puis du 69 pour cent de musique canadienne.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16349             Cependant, quand je regarde le rapport préparé par le Conseil, je note que vous avez réclamé deux pièces que le Conseil vous a dit qu'elles n'étaient pas canadiennes.  Cependant, le Conseil vous en a crédité 43 de plus.  C'est énorme, et si le hasard avait fait que ces 43 là avaient été des pièces non canadiennes, bien, vous n'auriez pas rencontré le quota.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16350             Je comprends que vous avez un système, mais est‑ce que votre système comprend tout l'ensemble des données ou bien si c'est fait à la mitaine ou...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16351             M. BRUNET : Bien, le problème qu'on a eu là quand on parle de... c'est que, justement, c'est un nouveau système qu'on a mis en place, ça fait pas un bon bout de temps, puis c'est qu'on est encore à l'améliorer, parce que quand on a acheté le système WiNRADiO, c'était supposé que toutes les pièces musicales qui étaient incorporées dedans étaient toutes identifiées correctement.  C'est ce qu'on s'est aperçu, qu'elles ne l'étaient pas.  C'est pour ça que vous, vous nous en créditez de plus que notre...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16352             Mais on est à travailler dessus à toutes les semaines pour le mettre plus exact.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16353             LE PRÉSIDENT : Mais est‑ce que je peux être en confiance que, pour l'avenir, à une prochaine écoute, je ne me retrouverai pas avec l'inverse du résultat que vous avez eu au mois de janvier, et que, finalement, le contraire, plutôt que d'avoir 65 pour cent de musique vocale française, on se retrouve avec 32?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16354             M. BRUNET:  C'est certain que ça ne sera pas l'inverse parce que c'est sûr que depuis tous nos problèmes ou nos discussions avec le CRTC il y a eu une directive chez nous que ce que je veux là‑dedans c'est qu'on vise plus le 80 pour cent que notre 55 pour cent dont nous avons besoin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16355             C'est une directive à l'interne qui fait que c'est presque impossible, même à cour terme...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16356             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Quel mécanisme de contrôle avez‑vous mis en place pour vous assurer que la directive est suivie?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16357             M. BRUNET:  C'est que maintenant la directrice de la programmation surveille tout ce qui est musical à toutes les semaines, sauf que ce qu'on fait, c'est que de plus en plus on révise toutes les indications qu'il y a pour chaque pièce musicale.  Sauf que ça va nous prendre un peu de temps, mais ce qu'on fait, c'est qu'on vise plus haut temporairement pour être certain de faire le pourcentage.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16358             LE PRÉSIDENT:  C'est sûr que le Conseil vous a aidés parce que je regarde, j'ai utilisé seulement une journée avec 43 différences, mais je pense qu'il n'y a pas une journée où il n'y a pas une quarantaine de pièces d'écart, je ne veux pas exagérer, mais...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16359             Je prends une journée, vous en aviez 132 vous en aviez rapporté 96, 138 vous en aviez rapporté 98, 134 vous en aviez rapporté 97, 120 vous en aviez rapporté 85, alors...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16360             M. BRUNET:  Oui, mais par contre c'est qu'on faisait quand même les quotas avec les pièces qu'on rapportait.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16361             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Ah oui, absolument, de ce côté‑là, enfin il y a certainement une mesure qui avait été mise en place à l'effet qu'on en jouait, du français.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16362             Donc, même si le registre que vous avez préparé ne montrait pas de manière réelle, et ça on n'a pas de mesure ici, vous n'êtes pas en défaut par rapport à aucun règlement et à aucune politique, mais je note quand même que c'est un problème potentiel advenant que dans une autre instance on fasse un autre sondage.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16363             C'est pour ça que je veux m'assurer que, un, vous m'avez dit que c'était un work in progress, comme on dit, que donc les données sont archivées et que vous travaillez à améliorer le système, mais je veux m'assurer, quand est‑ce que vous pensez que ce sera passablement avancé?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16364             Je vais dire * passablement avancé + parce que si vous avez été vérifier le dossier public qu'on avait à l'audience, le renouvellement d'Énergie de Montréal et de RockDétente Montréal, ils ont eux aussi des écarts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16365             Donc, avec tous les moyens qu'ils ont, ils ont aussi...  Mais on parle d'un ou deux écarts, vous on parle de 43.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16366             M. BRUNET:  Oui.  Par contre, comme je vous disais plus tôt, c'est que pour pallier à ces écarts‑là, nous, maintenant, avec ce système‑là, vu que quand on a acheté les pièces musicales, les informations n'étaient pas suffisantes ou pas correctement identifiées dans le programme.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16367             Ce qu'on a mis pour pallier à ça, c'est qu'on vise vraiment plus haut présentement pour être certain de faire les quotas.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16368             Ce qui va arriver, c'est que dans les mois à venir, plus on va réajuster les informations de chaque pièce musicale, plus l'écart va rapetisser, mais on va être quand même selon les quotas, on va toujours respecter les quotas, sauf qu'à mesure qu'on va modifier les pièces musicales ou l'information des pièces musicales, l'écart va rapetisser de plus en plus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16369             Sauf que tant que les pièces musicales n'auront pas toutes été modifiées, on va tout le temps viser plus haut pour être certain de faire le quota.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16370             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Vous êtes‑vous fixé un échéancier?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16371             M. BRUNET:  Nous, on pense qu'au plus tard à Noël ça devrait être fait, pour le mois de décembre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16372             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Noël de 2007.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16373             M. BRUNET:  De cette année.  Oui, de 2007.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16374             LE PRÉSIDENT:  De cette année parce qu'il faut être précis des fois parce que Noël, c'est parce que ça revient...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16375             M. BRUNET:  A chaque année.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16376             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Ça revient à chaque année.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16377             M. BRUNET:  En effet.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16378             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Monsieur, l'année dernière on avait parlé notamment des contributions de 400 dollars à MUSICACTION.  Je notais, en vous lisant la transcription, que vous aviez, à l'occasion de votre règlement, réglé l'année 2007, du moins pour 400 dollars.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16379             M. BRUNET:  Exactement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16380             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Or, depuis décembre 2006, la nouvelle politique pour les stations de votre catégorie, c'est passé à 500.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16381             Est‑ce qu'on peut s'assurer que d'ici le dépôt de votre prochain rapport annuel MUSICACTION recevra son autre 100 piastres?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16382             M. BRUNET:  Regardez, présentement MUSICACTION a eu son 400 dollars daté du 6 février 2007.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16383             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16384             M. BRUNET:  Ce qui représente 80 pour cent du 500 dollars.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16385             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16386             M. BRUNET:  Ici j'ai un autre chèque daté du 30, qui est quand même seulement qu'hier, pour Les Productions Naïka qui est un organisme qui collabore au niveau de la chanson régionale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16387             LE PRÉSIDENT:  D'accord.  Parfait.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16388             M. BRUNET:  Ça veut dire que le 500 dollars pour cette année est déjà versé.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16389             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Et on peut s'assurer que pour les années subséquentes, selon la formule du Conseil...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16390             M. BRUNET:  Certainement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16391             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Vous maintenez cet engagement‑là que vous avez d'ailleurs confirmé dans une lettre et je m'assure verbalement auprès de vous que cette politique, vous continuerez à la suivre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16392             M. BRUNET:  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16393             C'est sûr que la politique exige 60 pour cent à MUSICACTION, ce qui veut dire que dès l'année prochaine on va probablement verser 60 pour cent à MUSICACTION au lieu de 80 pour cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16394             LE PRÉSIDENT:  D'accord.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16395             M. BRUNET:  Et le 40 pour cent additionnel à des organismes locaux.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16396             LE PRÉSIDENT:  D'accord.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16397             Le système de rubans‑témoins, effectivement quand on a fait notre analyse musicale, on n'a pas constaté de défaut sur vos rubans‑témoins et d'ailleurs en relisant la transcription de l'année dernière, vous disiez que votre système WinRadio comprenait une composante WinLogger.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16398             M. BRUNET:  Exactement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16399             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Ça fonctionne toujours?


LISTNUM 1 \l 16400             M. BRUNET:  Oui, ça fonctionne très bien.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16401             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Ça fonctionne très bien.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16402             M. BRUNET:  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16403             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Avez‑vous un système de backup?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16404             M. BRUNET:  Oui.  Maintenant on a un ordinateur de plus qui enregistre, mais c'est un petit peu plus compliqué, lui, c'est comme une boucle de 20 minutes, c'est plus compliqué à trouver, mais on a quand même le système d'appoint advenant le cas que le WinLogger ne fonctionnerait pas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16405             On a vraiment deux systèmes informatisés différents à deux endroits différents pas liés un à l'autre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16406             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Finalement j'arrive à la production des rapports annuels auprès du Conseil.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16407             Vous avez déposé votre rapport annuel, vous avez dit...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16408             M. BRUNET:  Je pense que c'est le 4 ou le 5 décembre au lieu du 30 novembre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16409             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Du 30 novembre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16410             Parce que vous n'aviez plus de timbres?


LISTNUM 1 \l 16411             M. BRUNET:  Non.  C'est parce qu'on avait visé trop serré et vous pouvez être assuré que cette année, au lieu de viser le 30, on va viser le 1er.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16412             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Une question que je me suis posée, votre année financière, c'est le...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16413             M. BRUNET:  Le 31 août.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16414             M. BRUNET:  C'est le 31 août?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16415             M. BRUNET:  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16416             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Parce que l'année dernière, on a eu une longue discussion concernant l'immatriculation de votre entreprise et on avait découvert que vous étiez radié.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16417             Là je me suis dépêché à aller consulter le Registre des entreprises du Québec et j'ai noté que vous étiez en règle, mais cependant vous aviez déposé votre déclaration le 10 avril.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16418             Si ma mémoire est bonne, vous avez six mois après votre année financière, donc vous étiez dix jours en retard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16419             Est‑ce que vous avez toujours des problèmes comme ça avec les rapports annuels?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16420             M. BRUNET:  Dans le temps, oui, mais ça on parle de voilà un an.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16421             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Non, non, je parle du 10 avril 2007.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16422             M. BRUNET:  Vous parlez pour les états de la compagnie?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16423             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Oui, oui, auprès du registraire des entreprises.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16424             M. BRUNET:  Oui, c'est sûr que cette partie‑là a traîné légèrement, mais par contre maintenant on est à date.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16425             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Oui.  Je vois que vous êtes à date, le registraire dit que la déclaration annuelle il l'a reçue, mais il l'a reçue, déclare‑t‑il, le 10 avril 2007, mais de mémoire, je crois que la Loi des compagnies dit que vous avez six mois, donc ça veut dire que vous étiez dix jours en retard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16426             M. BRUNET:  Oui, on était en retard, mais avant c'était pire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16427             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Oui, oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16428             M. BRUNET:  On s'est de beaucoup amélioré.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16429             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Oui, effectivement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16430             M. BRUNET:  Dans un an.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16431             LE PRÉSIDENT:  C'est parce qu'on dirait que... parce qu'on voit bien que par le dossier on transige avec votre directrice des programmes pour certains éléments, on a eu affaire avec monsieur Nevins pour d'autres aspects, mais quand ce sont des aspects qui sont purement Pierre Brunet, que le personnel ne peut pas s'en occuper, ça prend plus de temps.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16432             M. BRUNET:  Oui, mais ça c'était dans le passé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16433             Depuis décembre cette année, il n'y a presque plus de retards maintenant.  Il y a eu vraiment une grosse amélioration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16434             LE PRÉSIDENT:  L'année dernière on avait fait le tour de certaines situations délicates, notamment des redevances à SOCAN, vous nous aviez parlé d'un plan d'étalement, êtes‑vous toujours à l'intérieur de votre plan d'étalement?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16435             M. BRUNET:  Dans cette portion‑là, on avait des ententes avec eux, il reste une partie à négocier avec eux.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16436             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Il reste une partie à négocier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16437             M. BRUNET:  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16438             LE PRÉSIDENT:  C'est donc qu'il y a encore...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16439             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  Combien, monsieur Brunet?


LISTNUM 1 \l 16440             M. BRUNET:  Je ne pourrais pas vous dire exactement le chiffre exact, mais il faut qu'on négocie, c'est la dernière chose qu'il nous reste à négocier maintenant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16441             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  C'était 80 000 en mars dernier, là c'est une chose significative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16442             Vous nous dites que vous avez fait des paiements entre‑temps et qu'il reste une balance à régler?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16443             M. BRUNET:  Oui, oui, oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16444             On n'a pas fait de paiement depuis ce temps‑là, il faut qu'on le règle avec la SOCAN, justement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16445             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  Vous n'avez fait aucun paiement sur votre 80 000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16446             M. BRUNET:  Non, pas sur le montant dû.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16447             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  Alors, on doit présumer que ça va être 80 000 plus quelque chose additionnel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16448             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Et plus cette année?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16449             M. BRUNET:  Plus les ententes, c'est ça, il s'agit de prendre une entente avec eux.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16450             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  Alors, vous n'avez pas eu d'entente.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16451             M. BRUNET:  Non.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16452             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  Vous nous avez assurés d'avoir une entente la dernière fois qu'on s'est vus et it turns out que vous n'avez pas d'entente.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16453             M. BRUNET:  Pas avec la SOCAN pour...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16454             Attendez une minute.  Oui j'ai une entente avec eux, j'ai une entente avec eux, mais par contre la SOCAN, il y a une clause qui dit que quand l'entente ne fonctionne pas, il faut qu'ils me notifient et justement il faut qu'on se parle pour ce dossier‑là.  Parce que je n'ai pas eu la notification de la SOCAN.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16455             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Ça veut dire que le plan que vous aviez négocié avec eux, pour eux ils s'attendent à ce que vous le respectiez.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16456             M. BRUNET:  Oui.  Sûrement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16457             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Donc, ils n'ont pas besoin de vous revenir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16458             M. BRUNET:  Bien, on a une entente avec eux que si le plan n'est pas respecté, eux il faut qu'ils me notifient.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16459             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Ah, et ils peuvent exiger le paiement complet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16460             M. BRUNET:  Non.  Il faut qu'ils me notifient 30 jours avant, il faut qu'ils me notifient et moi j'ai 30 jours pour...


LISTNUM 1 \l 16461             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Apporter une correction.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16462             M. BRUNET:  Apporter une correction.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16463             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Corriger le défaut.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16464             M. BRUNET:  C'est ça.  Je n'ai pas encore de notification de la SOCAN.  C'est sûr que vous allez me dire on a étiré l'élastique avec eux aussi un peu, par contre présentement je ne suis pas en défaut.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16465             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Donc, s'ils ne vous ont pas notifié, vous en concluez...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16466             Ma question ce n'est pas est‑ce que la SOCAN vous a notifié que vous étiez en défaut.  Ma question c'est faites‑vous vos...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16467             M. BRUNET:  Présentement non.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16468             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Rencontrez‑vous vos engagements avec la SOCAN?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16469             M. BRUNET:  Présentement, non.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16470             LE PRÉSIDENT:  On peut savoir pourquoi?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16471             M. BRUNET:  C'est parce qu'on a réglé pas mal de choses dans l'année 2006, j'ai réinvesti 220 000 dollars dans la compagnie, d'argent personnel, disons, là c'est le dernier... comment on pourrait appeler ça, le dernier bloc à régler c'est le bloc de la SOCAN.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16472             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  Vous nous dites que vous n'avez pas d'autres dettes significatives mis à part le financement de base de la compagnie, sauf votre dette envers la SOCAN.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16473             M. BRUNET:  Non.  J'ai une entente avec le gouvernement provincial aussi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16474             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  Est‑ce que vous la respectez l'entente avec le gouvernement provincial?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16475             M. BRUNET:  Oui.  Certainement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16476             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  Quel est le montant que vous devez au moment où on se parle à la SOCAN?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16477             M. BRUNET:  Aujourd'hui, présentement, je ne pourrais pas vous dire le montant, je ne pensais pas avoir cette question‑là aujourd'hui, mais je peux le faire calculer et vous revenir là‑dessus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16478             LE PRÉSIDENT:  On apprécierait que vous le déposiez par écrit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16479             M. BRUNET:  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16480             LE PRÉSIDENT:  On peut vous donner une semaine pour nous faire parvenir la réponse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16481             M. BRUNET:  Pas de problème.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16482             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Au début de la semaine prochaine.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16483             M. BRUNET:  C'est beau.  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16484             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Mais respectant le délai, pas...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16485             Me LAGACÉ:  Disons lundi, Monsieur le Président?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16486             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Pas les délais de Robert Brunet.  Le délai qu'on vous donne.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16487             Me LAGACÉ:  On peut s'entendre pour lundi, est‑ce que vous êtes en mesure de le produire pour lundi de la semaine prochaine?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16488             Ça vous donne trois jours ouvrables.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16489             M. BRUNET:  On pourrait s'entendre pour mercredi, peut‑être?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16490             LE PRÉSIDENT:  D'accord.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16491             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  Cependant si ce n'est pas là, monsieur Brunet, vous allez comprendre quel type de réaction on va avoir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16492             M. BRUNET:  Oui, oui.  Oui, c'est certain.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16493             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Outre Revenu Québec et la SOCAN, le reste des comptes payables sont au courant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16494             M. BRUNET:  Oui, oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16495             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Oui.  A l'intérieur de 90 jours, admettons.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16496             M. BRUNET:  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16497             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Quand vous avez comparu l'année dernière, vous nous aviez fait part que vous aviez formé un comité de gestion qui comprenait certaines personnes dont monsieur Gadoua.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16498             Dans la discussion, évidemment vous avez dit... parce que je me souviens très bien, vous nous aviez déposé un document qui disait quelles étaient les fonctions du comité de gestion et quand on a discuté au fond, vous avez repris certains des propos qui avaient été écrits sur ce document‑là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16499             Est‑ce que vous avez formé votre comité de gestion?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16500             M. BRUNET:  Oui.  On l'a formé, il a été en fonction environ un an, il a été dissout à la fin du mois de mars cette année.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16501             LE PRÉSIDENT:  On peut savoir pourquoi il a été dissout?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16502             M. BRUNET:  C'est parce que le comité, dans le fond, ce n'était pas un vrai comité de gestion selon vos termes à vous, c'était plus comme un comité de coaching pour m'aider à rentrer dans les délais et remettre mes rapports à temps.  C'était plus un comité d'aide.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16503             Sur une période d'un an, je pense que je me suis pas mal amélioré et c'est pour ça que là le comité a été dissout.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16504             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Le 31 mars 2007 que vous l'avez dissout?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16505             M. BRUNET:  Oui, à la fin du mois de mars.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16506             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Parce que là vous êtes confiant que vous êtes capable de rencontrer les délais?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16507             M. BRUNET:  Exactement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16508             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Pourtant, au mois de novembre, même avec le comité de gestion, vous n'avez pas rencontré le délai.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16509             M. BRUNET:  C'est ça, on a dépassé de cinq jours.  Exactement.  C'est vraiment qu'on avait visé trop juste comme je disais précédemment, on a visé le 30 ce qui n'était pas une bonne chose.  C'est pour ça que cette année on va viser le 1er.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16510             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Monsieur Brunet, l'année dernière on vous avait imposé des conditions par ordonnance judiciaire exécutoire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16511             Pouvez‑vous nous dire pourquoi le Conseil ne devrait pas réémettre ces ordonnances judiciaires?


LISTNUM 1 \l 16512             M. BRUNET:  Je ne pense pas qu'il devrait y avoir d'ordonnance parce qu'on a quand même assez bien réajusté tout ce qui était à l'interne à la station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16513             Par contre, si vous en voyez absolument la nécessité, je ne m'y opposerai pas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16514             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Normalement dans sa loi le Conseil peut émettre des renouvellements de licence pour une durée maximale de sept ans.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16515             Avez‑vous des motifs à donner au Conseil pourquoi le Conseil devrait vous donner un renouvellement de sept ans?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16516             M. BRUNET:  Parce que je pense que vraiment, considérant le dossier où on était l'an passé et où on est rendu aujourd'hui, je pense qu'il y a eu une nette amélioration et je ne pense pas qu'on mériterait d'avoir un renouvellement plus court.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16517             Là ça sera à votre convenance d'en décider, mais selon moi il y a eu une nette amélioration si on prend le portrait de voilà un an et le portrait aujourd'hui.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16518             C'est sûr, comme on parlait tout à l'heure, tout n'est pas rendu tout beau, tout 100 pour cent parfait, en tout cas je sais que monsieur French était là l'année passée et quand on se parlait, ce n'était vraiment pas le même portrait qu'aujourd'hui, on était vraiment plus en défaut et il y avait vraiment plus de...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16519             En tout cas, c'était plus à l'envers, disons, voilà un an que ça l'est aujourd'hui, je pense qu'on a vraiment fait un bon bout de chemin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16520             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Avez‑vous d'autres entreprises que la station de radio?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16521             M. BRUNET:  Présentement non.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16522             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  Monsieur Brunet, si le Président me permet, pouvez‑vous nous dire un petit peu ce qui a changé dans votre comportement personnel qui vous donne la confiance que vous nous exprimez?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16523             Parce que nous, on veut y croire, mais le problème c'est que vous nous avez fait des engagements un peu beaucoup et des fois ce n'est pas très reluisant, le résultat.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16524             Je ne nie pas que vous avez une amélioration, mais j'aimerais comprendre dans vos mots et d'après vous, qu'est‑ce qui a changé dans votre participation dans la vie de l'entreprise ou dans votre vie personnelle en général qui devrait nous amener à avoir plus de confiance?

1620


LISTNUM 1 \l 16525             M. BRUNET:  Je pense que ça fait huit ans que je suis propriétaire.  Depuis ce temps‑là il y a eu beaucoup de choses.  A la station on a eu des hauts et des bas, il y a eu différentes choses, différents intervenants qui ont voulu se partir d'autres radios.  Il y a eu différentes situations au niveau du personnel.  Il y a eu différentes situations au niveau...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16526             Il y a eu certaines années que de ma part il y a peut‑être eu un certain découragement, ce qui a fait que, ultimement, je parle voilà un an, un an et demi environ, il y avait plusieurs choses qui étaient à l'envers au niveau de la gestion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16527             Par contre, avec l'aide de plusieurs personnes dont le personnel de la station, je pense qu'on a remis nos culottes et on a travaillé fort.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16528             On peut voir dès cette année qu'il y a déjà eu un gros changement depuis l'année passée.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16529             Ce que je pourrais dire, c'est que la pire période a fini l'année passée qui a été une accumulation de différentes étapes ou différents événements, sauf que depuis un an il y a beaucoup beaucoup de choses qui se sont placées et je pense que l'équipe à l'intérieur et moi inclus, ça nous a encouragés et ça nous a donné plus l'espoir et la force de travailler pour ramener toutes nos obligations à date.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16530             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  Combien d'heures passez‑vous à la station par semaine?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16531             M. BRUNET:  Présentement?  Peut‑être une trentaine d'heures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16532             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  C'est parce que des fois on essaie de vous trouver et non seulement vous n'êtes pas à la station, on ne sait pas où vous êtes, pour des semaines et des semaines.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16533             M. BRUNET:  Attendez, vous parlez de quand?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16534             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  L'année dernière quand on a voulu vous parler.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16535             M. BRUNET:  L'année dernière, vous avez raison, mais l'année dernière je n'étais pas toujours là à toutes les semaines 30 heures/semaine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16536             L'année dernière il est arrivé plusieurs semaines que par découragement ou autre j'étais moins présent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16537             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  N'est‑il pas vrai que ce n'était pas la déception ou le découragement, mais c'était plutôt de la distraction de votre part?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16538             M. BRUNET:  Distraction?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16539             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  Oui, vous étiez diverti dans d'autres activités.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16540             M. BRUNET:  Non, pas vraiment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16541             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  Non.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16542             M. BRUNET:  Non.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16543             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  C'était honnêtement que vous vous êtes découragé, vous êtes allé chez vous et vous vous êtes dit : * Je n'y peux rien + ou...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16544             M. BRUNET:  Pas découragé, mais appelez ça genre découragement genre burnout, genre...  Plus une situation comme ça que d'aller vers d'autres activités ou d'autres commerces.  Non.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16545             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Nous, essentiellement, on fait allusion à la période... et le dernier renouvellement.  On ne parle pas au moment où vous avez comparu l'année dernière, mais à partir du moment où on a effectivement renouvelé la licence en août 2006, donc du 1er septembre 2006 à aujourd'hui, vous avez eu des périodes de découragement?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16546             M. BRUNET:  Bien, disons jusqu'au mois de décembre, il y a eu...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16547             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Parce que je sais que quand vous nous avez laissés l'année dernière, le lendemain vous vous en alliez repartir l'entreprise, rouvrir le compte de banque, redonner, donc, une phloux à l'entreprise.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16548             M. BRUNET:  C'est ce qui a été fait aussi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16549             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Ah oui, c'est marqué dans le Registre des compagnies et les dates concordent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16550             Ce que je veux dire par là, mon interrogation c'est que, effectivement, depuis cette période‑là, ça semble aller mieux, en tout cas l'apparence du dossier semble aller mieux, mais vous me dites que vous avez quand même eu des périodes de découragement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16551             M. BRUNET:  Ce que je dis, c'est que c'est à la fin des périodes de découragement parce qu'on était rendu à l'ultime à cette période‑là, il fallait rouvrir un compte de banque, il a fallu régler la marge de crédit, on a rencontré plusieurs exigences financières.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16552             C'est sûr que ça a été un stress intense et une période quand même assez difficile.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16553             Ce que je vous dis, c'est que depuis là, depuis, admettons, le mois de décembre, janvier, il y a eu beaucoup de changements parce que là plusieurs de ces stress financiers là ont été enlevés et tranquillement c'est sûr que ça va mieux.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16554             Quand vous n'avez pas besoin de penser à ces stress‑là quotidiennement, c'est sûr que ça aide aussi au point de vue moral.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16555             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Depuis le mois d'avril dernier, avez‑vous été obligé de réinvestir dans la compagnie?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16556             M. BRUNET:  Sauf des petits montants, non.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16557             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Donc aujourd'hui elle fait ses frais.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16558             M. BRUNET:  Présentement elle est sur le bord de faire ses frais.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16559             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Elle est sur le bord de faire ses frais.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16560             M. BRUNET:  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16561             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Ce n'est pas dramatique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16562             M. BRUNET:  C'est ça.  Mais il y a encore une couple de petits...  C'est comme je vous dis, des fois il y a des petits montants qu'il faut réinjecter pour ne pas avoir de problèmes comme on a eus voilà un an.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16563             Sauf qu'il y a différentes choses qui se sont stabilisées.  La plupart des choses se sont stabilisées.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16564             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  Pour ce qui est des investissements techniques, il n'y en a plus à faire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16565             M. BRUNET:  Présentement non.  On est pas mal tout updaté, upgradé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16566             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  Avec Revenu Canada et Revenu Québec, on a une entente avec Revenu Québec, mais on paie de façon courante.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16567             M. BRUNET:  C'est ça, on avait une entente Revenu Canada qui a fini au mois de février.  Eux on ne leur doit plus rien.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16568             Là maintenant on a une entente avec Revenu Québec sur une période de trois ans.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16569             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  Alors il reste la SOCAN.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16570             M. BRUNET:  Il reste la SOCAN, c'est le dernier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16571             M. BRUNET:  Vous respectez votre engagement par rapport à la SOCAN.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16572             M. BRUNET:  Sauf avec la SOCAN parce que c'est justement, il y avait des étapes, entre autres il fallait finir avec le gouvernement fédéral, ça a été rencontré.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16573             C'est parce que quelque part là‑dedans, c'est qu'on s'est financé à l'interne et personnellement, ce que ça a fait c'est que le gouvernement fédéral est réglé, on a une entente de trois ans avec le gouvernement provincial.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16574             C'est sûr et certain que pour la SOCAN, on attendait un peu, on se disait : * Plus on a de jeu pour tout de suite, ça nous aide. +

LISTNUM 1 \l 16575             LE PRÉSIDENT:  En d'autres mots, ce que vous me dites : * Je suis en défaut avec la SOCAN, mais comme je n'ai pas reçu l'avis de 30 jours, je me finance avec eux. +

LISTNUM 1 \l 16576             M. BRUNET:  Je ne me finance pas avec eux, mais j'attendais que...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16577             En partie, c'est un peu en partie ça parce qu'on attendait de clairer les autres qui eux étaient des organismes qui pouvaient nous faire fermer et à ce moment‑là si je fermais, je perdais ma licence, et caetera, et caetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16578             C'est sûr que c'est l'organisme qu'on a le plus étiré, mais c'est le dernier qui nous reste avec le gouvernement du Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16579             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Vous êtes conscient que la SOCAN, c'est une licence mensuelle, donc à chaque mois...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16580             M. BRUNET:  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16581             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Les payez‑vous quand même au courant?


LISTNUM 1 \l 16582             M. BRUNET:  Non, présentement non.  Le trois point deux pour cent, non.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16583             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Qu'est‑ce que vous faites aussi avec les autres sociétés de droits d'auteur, celle pour les droits voisins, les droits de reproduction?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16584             M. BRUNET:  Les autres c'est fait.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16585             LE PRÉSIDENT:  C'est fait.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16586             M. BRUNET:  Eux sont faits.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16587             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Que ça soit la CSI qui est la CMRRA/SODRAC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16588             M. BRUNET:  Attendez.  Là‑dedans il y a la SODRAC, justement, il y a une madame... on est en pourparlers avec une madame...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16589             J'ai un document ici du 4 janvier avec madame Natasha Labelle.  C'est l'autre document qu'on est en pourparlers avec eux.  Mais ce ne sont pas des...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16590             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Ce sont des sommes moins importantes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16591             M. BRUNET:  Oui, oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16592             LE PRÉSIDENT:  De quel ordre?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16593             M. BRUNET:  Ça je ne pourrais pas vous dire.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16594             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Non.  Pouvez‑vous le mettre dans la lettre?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16595             M. BRUNET:  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16596             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Écoutez, monsieur Brunet, on prend acte des réponses que vous nous avez données et on apprécie que vous soyez venu ici.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16597             Je ne sais pas si vous avez quelque chose d'autre à ajouter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16598             M. BRUNET:  Non, c'est tout.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16599             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Avant de conclure, je sais que vous avez reçu une intervention de l'ADISQ et si vous voulez répliquer à leur intervention, ce serait le moment de le faire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16600             M. BRUNET:  La seule chose, c'est que l'ADISQ a répété l'article qui disait qu'il appert que notre dossier est en retard.  J'ai répondu à cette question‑là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16601             Après, quand ils demandent si on se fie ou si on rencontre les normes ou les critères de musique canadienne et de langue francophone, comme vous l'avez vu dans le dernier rapport, on les atteint et largement, on les dépasse largement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16602             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Vous avez répondu à l'ADISQ par écrit?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16603             M. BRUNET:  Non.  Moi je n'ai pas répondu.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16604             Je veux dire un peu plus tôt quand je vous ai répondu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16605             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Oui, oui, d'accord.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16606             M. BRUNET:  A vous.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16607             LE PRÉSIDENT:  A cette portion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16608             M. BRUNET:  A l'ADISQ on n'a pas répondu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16609             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Donc, ça constitue votre réponse à l'ADISQ à l'effet que vos engagements en matière de soutien au CCD ou à l'ancien CTD, tout comme vos obligations face au contenu canadien et la musique francophone, votre réplique à l'ADISQ c'est que c'est fait.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16610             M. BRUNET:  Sauf qu'on négocie avec la SODRAC présentement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16611             Mais le restant, pour ce qui est contenu canadien et musique francophone, on dépasse largement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16612             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Le mémoire de l'ADISQ ne parlait pas de la SODRAC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16613             M. BRUNET:  C'est ça parce qu'eux, normalement, c'est 35 pour cent le contenu canadien, nous, on est à 60, 70 pour cent, je pense qu'on dépasse de beaucoup.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16614             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Oui.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16615             Monsieur Brunet, ça complète notre questionnement et nous vous remercions d'être venu à l'audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16616             M. BRUNET:  Merci beaucoup.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16617             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Ceci conclut l'audience, Madame la Secrétaire, je présume?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16618             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Oui.  Merci, Monsieur le Président.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16619             Je voulais juste mentionner qu'International Harvesters ont soumis leur engagement et qu'aux fins du dossier, les intervenants qui n'ont pas comparu et qui étaient indiqués dans l'ordre du jour demeureront dans le dossier public comme des interventions sans comparution.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16620             Merci Monsieur le Président.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16621             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Merci à tous les participants.  Merci au personnel du Conseil.  Merci chers collègues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16622             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  Merci aux membres de l'équipe B.

‑‑‑ Rires / Laughters

LISTNUM 1 \l 16623             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  Et les Commissaires, bien sûr.

‑‑‑ L'audience s'est terminée à 1631 /

    Whereupon the hearing concluded at 1631


  

 

 

 

                      REPORTERS

 

 

 

 

_____________________     _____________________

Johanne Morin             Monique Mahoney

 

 

 

 

_____________________     _____________________

Fiona Potvin              Jean Desaulniers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

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