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Offrir un contenu dans les deux langues officielles

Prière de noter que la Loi sur les langues officielles exige que toutes publications gouvernementales soient disponibles dans les deux langues officielles.

Afin de rencontrer certaines des exigences de cette loi, les procès-verbaux du Conseil seront dorénavant bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience et la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience.

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

SUBJECT/SUJET:

VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Conference Centre Centre de conférences

Pontiac Room Salle Pontiac

Portage IV Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage 140, promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec Gatineau (Québec)

May 1^st, 2007 Le 1^er mai 2007

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Canadian Radio‑television and

Telecommunications Commission

Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

télécommunications canadiennes

Transcript / Transcription

VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Michel Arpin Chairperson / Président

Barbara Cram Commissioner / Conseillère

Andrée Noël Commissioner / Conseillère

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Jade Roy Secretary / Secrétaire

Francine Laurier-Guy Hearing Manager /

Gérante de l'audience

Valérie Lagacé Legal Counsel /

Conseillère juridique

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Conference Centre Centre de conférences

Pontiac Room Salle Pontiac

Portage IV Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage 140, promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec Gatineau (Québec)

May 1^st, 2007 Le 1^er mai 2007

TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

PAGE / PARA

PHASE I

PRÉSENTATION PAR / PRESENTATION BY:

Hellenic canadien câble radio ltée (Cont.) 351 / 2058

Neeti P. Ray (OBCI) 370 / 2218

International Harvesters for Christ 436 / 2617

Evangelistic Association Inc.

S.S. TV Inc. 492 / 3069

Radio Humsafar 546 / 3470

Communications Média Évangélique 592 / 3862

PHASE II

INTERVENTION PAR / INTERVENTION BY:

Yves Sauvé 668 / 4447

Hellenic canadien câble radio ltée 674 / 4493

René Ferron 686 / 4572

Neeti P. Ray 690 / 4592

S.S. TV Inc. 696 / 4623

Radio Humsafar 701 / 4663

Communications Média Évangélique 705 / 4696

Gatineau (Québec) / Gatineau, Quebec

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Tuesday, May 1^st, 2007

at 0830 / L'audience débute le mardi 1^er mai 2007

à 0830

LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 20532053 LE PRÉSIDENT : Nous entendrons, en premier, les représentants de la requérante Canadian Hellenic Cable Radio, suite à quoi nous procéderons avec le prochain item de l'audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12054 C'est exact, Madame la secrétaire?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12055 LA SECRÉTAIRE : Exact, Monsieur le président.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12056 LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci, Madame.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12057 Alors, bienvenue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12058 MRS. GRIFFITHS: Good morning, Mr. President, Madam Commissioner, Mr. Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12059 I am Marie Griffiths. You remember Allan Mass, our partner; Bill Schwartz, who is our financial advisor and accountant; and here he is, Jean Fréchette, our engineer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12060 M. FRÉCHETTE : Bonjour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12061 LE PRÉSIDENT : Bonjour, Monsieur Fréchette. Avec votre permission, je vais vous poser des questions en français.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12062 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui, oui, oui. C'est ma langue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12063 LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12064 Monsieur Fréchette, comme vous êtes l'ingénieur au dossier, vous êtes familier avec les enjeux d'un deuxième adjacent à une fréquence, d'une part, et d'autre part, vous êtes sans doute connaissant du fait que, au moment où on se parle, Aboriginal Voice Radio occupe un site temporaire et que, éventuellement, ils se relocaliseront à un endroit autre que le site qu'ils occupent présentement. Du moins, c'est ce que le Conseil semble avoir reçu comme information, soit de la part de AVR, soit de la part du ministère de l'Industrie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12065 Advenant que AVR se relocalise à un site différent de celui qu'il est présentement, quel sera l'impact sur votre projet?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12066 M. FRÉCHETTE : Vous voulez dire qu'il s'installe à son site permanent...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12067 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12068 M. FRÉCHETTE : ...qui serait, par exemple, le Tour de la Bourse ou...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12069 LE PRÉSIDENT : Bien, je ne le sais...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12070 M. FRÉCHETTE : Moi non plus, je ne le sais pas là, mais je fais ça comme hypothèse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12071 LE PRÉSIDENT : Bien, actuellement, si je regarde la carte de rayonnement que vous avez déposée...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12072 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui. Nous, on est sur le Mont‑Royal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12073 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...et ses coordonnées, vous êtes sur le Mont‑Royal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12074 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12075 LE PRÉSIDENT : Est‑ce que vous avez l'intention de vous implanter au Mont‑Royal?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12076 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui, oui. Bien, écoutez, je vous explique brièvement comment on s'est retrouvé là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12077 A mon avis, le meilleur site à Montréal, c'est le Mont‑Royal. Donc, il y a beaucoup de stations qui... des stations majeures qui ont déménagé au Mont‑Royal, même des stations qui avaient 100,000 watts. Donc, forcément, avec notre petit 300 watts ou 200‑300 watts maximum, on se doit d'être au Mont‑Royal. Pour desservir Montréal, il faut être au Mont‑Royal. Techniquement, je crois que c'est un must.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12078 Donc, pour moi... et d'autant plus que l'expérience du 105.1 nous a montré qu'on avait un très bon signal à partir du Mont‑Royal. Donc, il fallait être là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12079 L'autre raison pour laquelle je trouvais que le Mont‑Royal, c'était un bon endroit pour la situation des seconds adjacents, c'est que la zone de brouillage qui est la plus importante dans ces cas‑là, c'est à côté des antennes, c'est‑à‑dire là où le signal est élevé. L'avantage du Mont‑Royal, c'est que là où le signal est très élevé, notre signal est très élevé, donc, là où on pourrait brouiller AVR, peu importe où il est, c'est un parc, donc, il n'y a personne. Enfin, il n'y a pas d'habitations, il y a moins de personnes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12080 Donc, c'est un double avantage d'être au Mont‑Royal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12081 Maintenant, si Industrie Canada ou la réglementation nous oblige à être au même endroit que AVR, on n'a pas d'objection, à condition qu'on sache où ils sont.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12082 LE PRÉSIDENT : Donc, vous n'auriez pas d'objection de co‑localiser, mais à votre avis...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12083 M. FRÉCHETTE : Bien, mon avis, c'est le Mont‑Royal, c'est...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12084 LE PRÉSIDENT : A votre avis, basé sur votre expertise, le meilleur site pour vous, c'est le Mont‑Royal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12085 Je présume que ce serait également le cas pour AVR; ce serait le meilleur site pour eux, je présume?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12086 M. FRÉCHETTE : Bien, si on met ces arguments‑là bout à bout, c'est‑à‑dire desservir Montréal, il y a une montagne à Montréal, il faut être sur la montagne. Comme je dis, il y a beaucoup de stations qui... Il y a des stations... il y a une station de 100 000 watts, qui était au coin de Berri et Sherbrooke, qui est déménagée sur le Mont‑Royal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12087 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12088 M. FRÉCHETTE : Nous, on parle de 300 watts. Alors, il faut être sur le Mont‑Royal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12089 Ensuite, il faut être ensemble. C'est sûr que s'ils étaient sur le Mont‑Royal avec nous, ça serait... si c'est faisable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12090 LE PRÉSIDENT : Ça serait la situation idéale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12091 M. FRÉCHETTE : Puis l'autre chose, c'est que le Mont‑Royal, c'est un parc, donc, la zone de brouillage intense, ou là où on risque d'avoir des gros problèmes, bien...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12092 LE PRÉSIDENT : Est‑ce que le Mont Royal, les tours du Mont‑Royal souffrent encore de problèmes de sécurité?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12093 M. FRÉCHETTE : Du Code 6?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12094 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12095 M. FRÉCHETTE : Pas à l'endroit où on a fait le projet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12096 LE PRÉSIDENT : Pas à l'endroit où le projet serait...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12097 M. FRÉCHETTE : Non, surtout aux puissances dont on parle. On parle de petites puissances, donc... D'ailleurs, le projet tel qu'on l'a présenté a été accepté, ces études là ont été faites.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12098 LE PRÉSIDENT : Ces études‑là ont déjà été réalisées, donc, c'est acceptable... ce serait sur la tour de Radio‑Canada ou sur l'autre tour?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12099 M. FRÉCHETTE : Non, de Bell, la tour de Bell.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12100 LE PRÉSIDENT : Sur la tour de Bell.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12101 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12102 LE PRÉSIDENT : Et Bell va procéder à des...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12103 M. FRÉCHETTE : Non, c'est‑à‑dire nous, on doit...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12104 LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous avez fait une... des simulations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12105 M. FRÉCHETTE : Non, mais quand on présente un projet comme ça, il faut présenter au ministère un calcul qui montre qu'on ne dépasse pas les normes. Donc, ce projet est irrecevable si on ne présente pas ce calcul‑là. Il a été fait.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12106 LE PRÉSIDENT : Il a été fait, puis...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12107 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12108 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...je vois aux notes du dossier que le ministère consent à approuver le...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12109 M. FRÉCHETTE : Vous voyez, nous, l'avantage de ‑‑ je dirais, la beauté de ce projet‑là, c'est que, avec le 105.1, on a fait nos armes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12110 Puis autant du côté signal, je dirais, site, par exemple, on connaît bien le site, on est là déjà.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12111 Puis autant du côté deuxième adjacent, puisqu'il y a un deuxième adjacent, qui est la petite station de Radio‑Canada à 104,7, qui est juste à côté, et qui est un deuxième adjacent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12112 Donc, on connaît déjà, je dirais, le fonctionnement. Puis, en plus, ce ne sont pas des sites qui sont au même endroit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12113 LE PRÉSIDENT : Ça, le 104,7, c'est celui que Radio‑Canada voulait installer au coin de Sherbrooke et Cavendish?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12114 M. FRÉCHETTE : Qu'il a installé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12115 LE PRÉSIDENT : Qu'il a installé?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12116 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12117 LE PRÉSIDENT : Puis là, il est rendu sur le Mont‑Royal?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12118 M. FRÉCHETTE : Non, non, non. Non, non. C'est que, justement, c'est un bel exemple de... ce n'est pas au même site.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12119 LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous n'êtes pas co localisés?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12120 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui. Je cherchais le mot là. C'est ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12121 LE PRÉSIDENT : C'est ça, bon, vous n'êtes pas co localisés.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12122 M. FRÉCHETTE : C'est ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12123 LE PRÉSIDENT : O.K. Et ça fonctionne bien parce que c'est un deuxième adjacent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12124 M. FRÉCHETTE : On vit avec depuis trois ans maintenant, puis...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12125 LE PRÉSIDENT : Et ni un ni l'autre ne rapporte de problème de brouillage qui...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12126 M. FRÉCHETTE : Je pense qu'on peut dire que...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12127 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...autre que ceux qui étaient prévus dans...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12128 M. FRÉCHETTE : Je vais vous dire quelque chose, quand on a commencé le 105.1... d'ailleurs, c'est toujours le problème de ces petites fréquences‑là, ou ces petites puissances‑là plutôt, on se demande toujours ce que ça va donner, hein, parce qu'il y a plusieurs années, on n'aurait même pas imaginé présenter un projet ici avec 200‑300 watts, ça aurait été un peu risible même.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12129 Mais là, on l'a fait à 105,1. Le signal a été assez surprenant, et, à mon avis, une des raisons, c'est le Mont‑Royal. Puis ce qui nous inquiétait encore plus, avec ça, il y avait non seulement la petite puissance, mais il y avait le 104,7 juste à côté, qu'on avait accepté...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12130 MS GRIFFITHS: De vivre avec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12131 M. FRÉCHETTE : On avait accepté de vivre avec. On s'était dit, évidemment, ça plus de chance de fonctionner si on accepte. Puis trois ans d'opération, puis ça marche.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12132 LE PRÉSIDENT : Puis Radio‑Canada...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12133 M. FRÉCHETTE : A ma connaissance, il ne s'en est pas plaint là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12134 LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous le sauriez?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12135 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12136 LE PRÉSIDENT : Ils sont rapides pour le dire?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12137 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui, oui. D'ailleurs, ils ont fait les mesures et tout ça. Puis, d'ailleurs, ça été très intéressant comme référence. On a des choses concrètes là. On ne parle pas de quelque chose qui est peut‑être, probablement, et caetera. On sait ce que ça donne. Donc, c'est un peu dans le même esprit qu'on a monté ce projet‑là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12138 LE PRÉSIDENT : Et vous dites que le brouillage, si brouillage il y a, il est immédiatement dans le parc, donc, il n'affectera aucun auditeur?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12139 M. FRÉCHETTE : Moins, disons. Il y a ceux qui se promènent là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12140 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui, oui, évidemment là, qui...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12141 M. FRÉCHETTE : Mais même là, je vais vous dire, j'ai été surpris personnellement. Vous savez, on fait des études théoriques, puis on va dans le champ, souvent les études théoriques sont plus sévères que la réalité. Puis moi, ça ne m'inquiète pas, en tout cas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12142 LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous n'êtes pas sans savoir, puis vous en exploiter un deuxième adjacent, que certains récepteurs sont plus sensibles aux interférences, notamment, les récepteurs de basse qualité, les récepteurs portables, les réveille‑matin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12143 Est‑ce que vous pensez que cela a une incidence potentielle sur votre auditoire, le fait que cette catégorie de récepteur serait susceptible à ne pas recevoir, effectivement, le signal?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12144 Il y a quand même, dans le parc, des récepteurs, et c'est un nombre assez absolu...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12145 M. FRÉCHETTE : Important.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12146 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...important. Ce n'est pas tout le monde qui a des Bosch et des appareils Harmon Kardon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12147 M. FRÉCHETTE : Bien là, comme je vous dis, actuellement, ça fonctionne. Moi, je dirais, le principal handicap, ce n'est pas tellement le deuxième adjacent, c'est la puissance, c'est des problèmes... Puis, comme je vous dis aussi, c'est qu'on est sur le Mont‑Royal, puis ça fonctionne bien.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12148 C'est le fait qu'on n'a pas beaucoup de signal qui pourrait être un handicap au départ, mais aujourd'hui, on a une assurance qu'on n'avait pas même il y a trois ans quand on a présenté l'autre projet en disant... On disait, bon, 200‑300 watts, est‑ce que ça va être bon, est‑ce que ça va fonctionner même? Puis là, ça fonctionne bien.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12149 C'est vrai que, à 100 000 watts, on serait mieux. C'est vrai que si on n'avait pas de deuxième adjacent, on serait mieux aussi. Mais ça fonctionne.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12150 LE PRÉSIDENT : Puis le 105,1, quelle est la puissance de cette...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12151 M. FRÉCHETTE : C'est du même ordre. C'est une centaine de watts, moyen là, puis 300 watts, 200‑300 watts rayonnés.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12152 LE PRÉSIDENT : Donc, c'est des... on parle de...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12153 M. FRÉCHETTE : De petites...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12154 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...de puissances comparables entre...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12155 M. FRÉCHETTE : Tout à fait.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12156 LE PRÉSIDENT : Tout à fait.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12157 M. FRÉCHETTE : Tout à fait.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12158 LE PRÉSIDENT : Et quel territoire, réellement, ça dessert sur... parce que la carte, vous l'avez dit tantôt, entre la pratique et la théorie là...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12159 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui. Mais je vais... mais j'aurais le goût de laisser parler Marie là dessus parce que c'est eux qui reçoivent les...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12160 Mais moi, personnellement, de ce que j'ai vu, c'est qu'on réussit à faire, je dirais, l'île de Montréal, peut‑être pas vers l'ouest là complètement, parce que quand on dit l'île de Montréal, c'est peut‑être un peu grand là, mais... je ne sais pas. Marie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12161 MS GRIFFITHS: Yes. First of all, we have to tell you we were pleasantly surprised with the coverage we got. I don't think for a minute ‑‑ and I am not an engineer ‑‑ had he not installed it the way he did at the mountain, at the height we are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12162 I learned a lot of things from him. You could have 2 watts and be four miles up in the sky and you could cover half the world. So it wasn't so much the number as the location and the quality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12163 We reach all of the west Island. We go as far as ‑‑ when I drive to Ottawa, up to Hawkesbury I can hear 105.1. We hear it in L'Estrie. It comes in loud and clear in Dorion/Valleyfield, for example. It goes all the way up north past Saint‑Sauveur.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12164 People ask us: What are you broadcasting at, 10,000 watts? So there is no more shame in saying we have 300 watts. It is what you get at the end of the day. The proof is in the pudding. We have a great signal, a tight, good, clear signal, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12165 THE CHAIRPERSON: So if I am just looking at the community you are looking to serve, where they are located your signal will reach them?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12166 MS GRIFFITHS: Sir, it reaches further than we even thought but you are perfectly right when you say there are certain receivers ‑‑ for example, we have a small area of two blocks around Descaries ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12167 M. FRÉCHETTE : C'est ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12168 MS GRIFFITHS: ‑‑ remember, at Queen Mary, where for some reason the reception is not good.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12169 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui, c'est ce que j'allais dire. C'est que la radiodiffusion, vous savez, on pourrait dire probablement qu'à Saint‑Sauveur, ça rentre ou à des endroits... mais l'idée, c'est de rentrer partout dans la région visée.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12170 C'est certain que si on faisait une étude, on arriverait à un taux peut‑être de 70‑80 pour cent, quelque chose comme ça. Ce n'est pas 100 pour cent, puis ce n'est sûrement pas équivalent aux autres stations de 100 000 watts, mais c'est vivable, c'est viable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12171 LE PRÉSIDENT : Monsieur Fréchette, comme vous savez, le Conseil, en décembre dernier, en révisant sa politique sur la bande L, a conclu que peut‑être qu'il y avait d'autres technologies qui pouvaient être susceptibles de numériser le signal et que les Canadiens seraient intéressés à cet autre type de technologie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12172 Une que le Conseil a dit accepter, dans la mesure où Industrie Canada la normalise, c'est la technologie in‑band on‑channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12173 Or, si cette technologie se voit introduite au Canada, est‑ce que vous avez des plans pour introduire le IBOC sur la station que vous demandez aujourd'hui?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12174 M. FRÉCHETTE : Écoutez, à mon avis, ça serait une très bonne chose pour ces petites stations là d'introduire des technologies comme ça, parce que ça a l'avantage, de ce que j'ai lu sur ça... parce que je dois dire que j'en ai jamais implanté personnellement au Canada, évidemment, parce que ce n'est pas autorisé encore, mais j'espère que ça viendra, ou l'autre aussi, d'ailleurs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12175 LE PRÉSIDENT : Mais je sais que vous voyagez à travers le monde, donc...

‑‑‑ Rires / Laughter

LISTNUM 1 \l 12176 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui. En fait, je ne pense pas que ça soit en Europe non plus, ni en Afrique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12177 Mais là, vous m'avez... j'ai perdu le fil là.

‑‑‑ Rires / Laughter

LISTNUM 1 \l 12178 LE PRÉSIDENT : On parlait de l'introduction du IBOC et puis des problèmes que vous anticiperiez.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12179 M. FRÉCHETTE : Non, mais en fait, je...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12180 LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous venez juste de dire que, à votre avis, ça serait une excellente...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12181 M. FRÉCHETTE : C'est ça. En fait, je trouve... en premier lieu, je trouve que ça serait une excellente chose pour les petites stations qui ont une centaine de watts, parce qu'il s'avère que ça augmente leur territoire, ça permet d'aller rejoindre des... parce que le digital a besoin de moins de signal pour atteindre une qualité intéressante.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12182 C'est la même chose qu'en télévision, c'est‑à‑dire... et plus, disons, à l'abris des interférences. Donc, ça permet de couvrir un territoire meilleur... un meilleur territoire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12183 Par ailleurs, c'est certain que la technologie IBOC, ce qu'ils ont fait, c'est qu'ils ajoutent une porteuse digitale aux extrémités de la bande FM, qui, normalement, est réservée à la bande FM, ce qui fait qu'elle devient pratiquement... l'espacement entre les canaux est très, très... en fait, il reste 4 kilohertz, qui n'est pas beaucoup.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12184 Bon, à première vue, on pourrait dire ça pose problème. Ce que j'ai lu là‑dessus... il y une étude dont j'ai une copie ici, ou enfin juste un résumé, qui montre que pour le deuxième adjacent et même pour le premier adjacent, l'effet n'est pas significatif.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12185 MME GRIFFITHS : Du IBOC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12186 M. FRÉCHETTE : Du IBOC, c'est ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12187 Donc, en autres mots là, si je résume, c'est que si les deux stations opèrent le IBOC, ça ne va pas affecter leur signal analogique, deux stations, deuxième adjacent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12188 LE PRÉSIDENT : Si je comprends bien, il faudrait... est‑ce qu'il faut que les deux stations se transforment au IBOC au même moment...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12189 M. FRÉCHETTE : Non.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12190 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...ou une peut le faire, puis l'autre décider de ne pas le faire?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12191 M. FRÉCHETTE : Absolument. Ce dont je parle, c'est le signal analogique là, c'est‑à‑dire...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12192 LE PRÉSIDENT : Ah! bon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12193 M. FRÉCHETTE : Les deux stations sont en signal analogique...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12194 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12195 M. FRÉCHETTE : ...c'est‑à‑dire le signal conventionnel qu'on connaît.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12196 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12197 M. FRÉCHETTE : Une décide d'aller en IBOC, ça ne dérange pas l'autre en signal analogique. Les deux décident, ça ne dérange pas l'autre non plus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12198 Ils ont fait des tests avec des récepteurs. Ils ont mis le IBOC, ils l'ont enlevé, puis ils ont demandé aux gens d'évaluer la qualité, puis les résultats sont, ce qu'ils disent, non‑significatifs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12199 LE PRÉSIDENT : Non‑significatifs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12200 M. FRÉCHETTE : C'est ce que j'ai lu. Il y a une étude du NRSC américain sur ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12201 LE PRÉSIDENT : Est‑ce que vous accepteriez de partager votre étude avec le Conseil?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12202 M. FRÉCHETTE : Bien, oui. Bien, comme je vous dis, ça 60 pages, mais...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12203 LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous avez un sommaire?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12204 M. FRÉCHETTE : Je vais vous le lire... non, non.

‑‑‑ Rires / Laughter

LISTNUM 1 \l 12205 M. FRÉCHETTE : Non, bien c'est‑à‑dire ce que j'ai retenu, c'est, d'abord, la page couverture, puis deux tableaux, finalement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12206 Bien, les tableaux les plus significatifs, c'est celui qui parle... il y a deux tableaux sur le deuxième adjacent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12207 LE PRÉSIDENT : Mais si vous acceptiez de laisser une copie à la secrétaire...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12208 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12209 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...de l'audience, puis elle s'assurera de partager les informations avec le personnel et les membres du Conseil.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12210 Madame Griffiths, Monsieur Fréchette, ça termine mes questions. Je vous remercie pour ce matin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12211 M. FRÉCHETTE : Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12212 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mrs. Secretary, we will move to the next item.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12213 LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci, Monsieur le président.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12214 We will now proceed with item 15 on the agenda which is an application by Neeti P. Ray, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, for a licence to operate a commercial specialty FM (ethnic radio) station in Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12215 The new station would operate on frequency 106.3 MHz (channel 292A) an average effective radiated power of 324 watts (maximum effective radiated power of 1,200 watts/antenna height of 198.9 metres).

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 12216 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Ray, when you are ready.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12217 THE SECRETARY: Please introduce your colleagues and you will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation. Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12218 MR. RAY: Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12219 Mr. Chairman, Commissioner French and Commissioner Cram, good morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12220 It is with a sense of pride and commitment that we appear before you today seeking approval to establish an over‑the‑air ethnic FM radio broadcasting undertaking on 106.3 FM in Montreal and before I do that I take this opportunity to introduce my panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12221 On my right is Dr. Ralph Agard. Dr. Agard has been the Director of Human Rights and Equity at the University of Guelph and taught graduate study Faculty of Social Work Cultural Diversity at the University of Toronto.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12222 On my left and on your right is Julia Ciamarra. She is a long‑time Montrealer who has been a community activist for the past many years in Montreal's Hungarian community in particular and has brought her ethnic mosaic in general. Julia is also a member of our proposed board of directors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12223 On Julia's left is Rita Simon. She is an event organizer in Montreal's Hungarian community, a Hungarian teacher who also used to teach English in Budapest, Hungary, before migrating to Montreal in 1982, and Rita is part of the proposed Montreal station's advisory council.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12224 Before I start I must apologize that yesterday we had kind of a miscalculation of the timing and we thought we would be certainly up yesterday. As a result, two of our panel members, Mr. Khanna and Mr. Chadda, who had taken the day off from their work, unfortunately, were unable to do that today unless they lose their job.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12225 Also, our engineer, Mr. Peter Cahn, because of his heath and his age and the fact that he recently had heart surgery was unable to make it back but, fortunately, Mr. Jim Moltner, who is behind me, will be representing us in place of Mr. Cahn.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12226 I should also take this opportunity to thank very much Mr. Jeff Lutes of International Harvesters who will be making a presentation later today for having allowed his engineer, Mr. Moltner, to speak on our behalf.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12227 Now to start the formal part of our presentation, Mr. Chairman and commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12228 Montreal today stands as the third largest and most culturally diverse urban centre in Canada. It remains one of the last major markets where a significant number of third‑language communities remain without any over‑the‑air radio service in their respective mother tongues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12229 In fact, when you consider the national South‑Asian listening audience of Canada's three largest diverse urban centres, Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal, Montreal remains the only one without any dedicated FM service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12230 In addition, 14 of Montreal's diverse third‑language communities have no programming hours available to them from any commercial radio station and three language groups are very underserved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12231 Based on our consultations with local third‑language consumers, the need and demand for our proposed new ethnic FM radio station is abundantly clear and is overdue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12232 Consistent with our findings of the need for dedicated ethnic radio programming services for the region's multicultural communities that we propose to serve, we draw your attention, commissioners, to two letters to the Commission by Montreal organizations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12233 The past president of India‑Canada Association, Mr. Bhargav, stated:

"An important element in an immigrant community's growth is access to local information, local and homeland news and interaction about who we are and how we feel about our lives in Canada. Radio plays the most important role in providing access to all of the above. Unlike larger ethnic communities and the mainstream population, the South‑Asian and many other communities have very little or no radio service that they can enjoy and benefit from."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12234 Rita.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12235 MS SIMON: Another national organization based in Montreal, the Hungarian Canadian Chamber of Commerce, also wrote to the Commission reinforcing the long‑held Canadian government policy on integration wherein the maintenance of cultural identity is an essential part of shaping the national Canadian identity and we quote:

"Our people are hard‑working Canadians. When they will hear radio programs in Hungarian it will further reinforce the deep cultural values that we all came to Canada with. Our children will benefit the most. It will revitalize community activities as well as help the business community in its prosperity."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12236 The proposed Montreal radio station's inclusive approach to serving 20 cultural communities in 17 languages is both necessary and desirable. Given that 14 out of these 17 languages have no service on existing commercial radio stations and three have a mere 30 to 90 minutes per week of radio programming, the obvious need, we argue, can only be met by a new multicultural station entering the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12237 MR. RAY: As experienced ethnic broadcasters we know the true value of third‑language radio programming to multicultural communities. We are all those communities. We immigrated to Canada and have lived the experience of trying to find our way and fit into the new way of life as Canadians and we have witnessed the importance that a permanent radio voice holds for Canada's multicultural communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12238 In the words of Dr. Reikov(ph) of the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry:

"A transition to a new culture is made more easily by people who come with a strong sense of their ethnic identity."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12239 Eminent Canadian sociologist Raymond Britain has in his research on the acculturation process of immigrants pointed out:

"Beside religious institutions, it is radio programs that have the most important effect on an immigrant's interpersonal network."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12240 Given these well‑researched needs of immigrants and our experience that an ethnic radio station in essence becomes part of the extended family that immigrants have left behind, we have opted to serve as many third‑language communities as possible without compromising on the quality of programming and the quantity of time allocated to each language group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12241 Given the existing multilingual radio station configuration in Montreal, it is our firm belief that in approving our application the Commission will therefore gain comfort in the fact that those we propose to serve would not otherwise receive third‑language programming and others in our pool would not otherwise be able to in the near future mount the combination of community and private resources to generate over‑the‑air services in their third language.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12242 Apart from the South‑Asian community, these would be Vietnamese, Indo‑Caribbean, Cambodian, Turkish, Afghan, Lao, Korean, Ghanaian, Hungarian, Czech, Slovak and Bulgarian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12243 This is consistent with the principles of the Commission's Ethnic Broadcasting Policy. At the same time such an approval also calls for a nation‑building use of the last Montreal FM frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12244 In a sense, licensing our proposed use of 106.3 FM will fill in the missing link within Montréal's otherwise well‑rounded local programming spectrum.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12245 Ralph...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12246 DR. AGARD: Turning to community and business enhancements. Chair and Commissioners, the licensing of the proposed Montréal radio station in 106.3 FM will introduce to Montréal an historic first time, third language ethnic programming service to 14 multilingual, multicultural communities representing more than 150,000 third language Canadians and significantly enhance services to the Hindu, Urdu and Punjabi speaking and Vietnamese communities who have very little programming available in Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12247 MR. RAY: More specifically, the proposed station will, among many key considerations, achieve the following:

LISTNUM 1 \l 12248 ‑ provide first‑time locally relevant community programming to 20 ethnocultural communities in their own heritage languages;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12249 ‑ greatly enhance the level of programming diversity and listener choice within the Montréal region by introducing ethnic programming elements that do not exist on local radio;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12250 ‑ invest a minimum of $500,000 in direct and indirect expenditures on the development of Canadian content and promotion and on‑air exposure of emerging local, ethnic Canadian talent, an important new diversity to the ownership ranks of ethnic broadcasting in Montréal;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12251 ‑ train and develop a new generation of ethnic broadcasters to serve the multicultural communities within the region;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12252 ‑ provide Montréal's ethnic business owners with a cost‑effective radio advertising vehicle to target and serve specific third language communities;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12253 ‑ beneficially attract new listeners and increase hours of tuning to local radio without impacting on existing radio stations;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12254 ‑ generate new radio dollars from Montréal's various unserved ethnic business communities with very minimal impact, if any, on existing radio stations; and

LISTNUM 1 \l 12255 ‑ create important new employment opportunities for ethnic broadcasters within the Montréal radio market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12256 Ralph...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12257 DR. AGARD: Building our broadcasting undertaking.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12258 We have attempted to build a contemporary broadcasting service which also facilitates the implementation of the Commission's new thrust in fulfilling the principles of the Broadcasting Act. Our goal has been to create a radio station that meaningfully addresses and reflects Montréal's ethnicity and the needs of underserved communities by giving them a voice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12259 In coming to this conclusion, we believe that the design of the proposed station must optimize utilization of the 106.3 MHz frequency and reaching out to serve the 20 unserved and largely underserved communities in 17 different languages within the greater Montréal area. Our proposal does just that rather than proposing service to any of the already well served language groups.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12260 Mindful of the Commission's ethnic policy on local reflection which emphasizes a primary responsibility of over‑the‑air ethnic stations to serve their local communities, we have designed our programming to do just that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12261 By way of example, on our morning drive show, The Punjabi Voice, on weekdays there will be the news reflecting the happenings within the local, South Asian and other Montréal communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12262 From 8:30 to 9:00 a.m. each weekday morning there will be interviews and open line discussions with an emphasis on Montréal's South Asian community and issues important to them such as social, political and health issues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12263 Similarly, the afternoon program in Hindustani will feature local news, interviews, local guests like a musician, a politician, a youth, a woman activist or a social worker.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12264 Neeti...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12265 MR. RAY: Chair and Commissioners, in serving 20 communities we are sensitive to the challenge of balancing quantitative needs of a large unserved ethnic population with the all‑important qualitative considerations. We are mindful of the Commission's Ethnic Broadcasting Policy and Public Notice CRTC 1999‑117 which states in part:

"A balance may be struck between two priorities serving as many groups as practical and providing high‑quality programming to those groups that are served."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12266 The proposed Montréal radio station shares the Commission's insistence on quality programming, since achieving the highest quality possible has always been our benchmark and the key to our success in producing world‑class multicultural programs in Edmonton and in Toronto. This quest for high‑quality programming is essential to the proposed radio stations opting for a combination of station‑produced programs and brokered and non‑staff‑produced programs that would operate within the same guidelines as the staff‑produced programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12267 In achieving and maintaining a high quality programming service for each of the 17 language groups, the proposed Montréal radio station has a number of important tools at its disposal, including:

LISTNUM 1 \l 12268 (1) an ongoing commitment to training both in‑house and institutionally of both staff and non‑staff producers;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12269 (2) the allocation of quality time slots to each community regardless of size across the 6:00 a.m. to 12 midnight regulated portion of the broadcast day; and

LISTNUM 1 \l 12270 (e) an independent advisory council composed of representative members from the various ethnic cultural communities will, among other responsibilities, monitor the programming and advise and recommend changes and improvements to further enhance the quality and level of service provided to each language group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12271 We have structured our proposed broadcasting schedule to ensure that each language group has a minimum of four hours of programming per week of those allocated weekend time slots, and minimum of five hours per week for those groups allocated weekly time slots.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12272 Julia...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12273 MS CIAMARRA: Chair and Commissioners, from the many consultations that we conducted with third language groups throughout the Montréal region, the message was loud and clear: they wanted locally relevant programming that reflected the news, activities and events, current affairs, local talent, music and a host of other undertakings that were important to the respective communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12274 In addition to the local community focus, there was a strong desire for news, information and music from their homelands. The proposed Montréal radio station will give the 17 third language communities what they want: locally relevant, locally produced community‑driven programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12275 MR. RAY: Supplementing the local programming components will be news and information from the home countries of the ethnic communities as provided by such international broadcast news organizations as Voice of America, the British Broadcasting Corporation, All India Radio, Radio Pakistan, Trinidad And Tobago Broadcasting Corporation, Radio Korea, Voice of Vietnam, Guyana Broadcasting Corporation, et cetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12276 Chair and Commissioners, in keeping with the Commission's policy regarding Canadian content development as set out in Public Notice 2006‑158, approval of this application for the proposed Montréal radio station will greatly benefit Canadian ethnic talent within the Montréal region.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12277 As detailed in our application, the proposed station is committed to spend a minimum of $150,000 in direct expenditures and $350,000 in indirect on‑air talent promotion initiatives over the initial seven‑year term of the licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12278 Dr. Agard...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12279 DR. AGARD: In formulating our Canadian content development proposals we have kept in mind the commercial radio policy 2006 and its Canadian content development assertions. It was therefore important to keep in mind that the proposed Montréal radio station, if licensed, will become the first ethnic radio service provider for 14 language groups and one that will radically enhance the services to the South Asian and Vietnamese communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12280 As such, the proposed radio station's priority is to ensure that its talent development proposals will be utilized in an equitable and inclusive fashion across the region's multicultural population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12281 The direct expenditure initiatives within our Canadian content development proposals will, in our view, achieve that goal. The proposed a CCD initiatives and the amounts of contribution over the seven years of the term of the licence are as follows: the station grants program, $66,000; annual ethnic broadcaster scholarship fund, $66,000; and on‑air ethnic talent contest, $18,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12282 While the first year total for the direct expenditure initiatives is $10,000 and the second is $15,000, in subsequent years three through seven the proposed Montréal radio station will increase its direct expenditures on the above projects to $25,000 per annum, bringing the total to $150,000 over the first licence term.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12283 It is our view that the combined total of $500,000 in direct and indirect expenditures over seven years will be a profoundly beneficial impact on the lives and careers of developing ethnic Canadian talent within the Montréal region.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12284 MR. RAY: Chair and Commissioners, the Montréal radio market demonstrates a clear opportunity for the proposed ethnic radio station on 106.3 FM, because Montréal market revenues of all AM and FM radio stations were at a healthy level in the past few years. In 2005 the total revenue of all commercial radio stations in Montréal was $138 million, up from $126 million in 2004, and is expected to grow to over $150 million in 2007.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12285 Also, local and national demand for FM airtime continues to grow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12286 Commissioners, please permit me to summarize. The proposed Montréal radio station's programming services to 20 multicultural communities in 17 different languages will attract new listeners and increase hours of tuning to FM from targeted and unserved ethnic communities. This increased listenership and hours tuned to FM will not come at the expense of other Montréal radio stations. This is because the third language communities targeted by the proposed new Montréal radio station are mostly unserved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12287 Approval of the proposed Montréal radio station's application will result in new radio dollars being attracted to Montréal's FM sector, with minimal impact on existing broadcasters, because our revenue will accrue largely from ethnic businesses interested in effectively reaching those unserved third language communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12288 With a revenue of $700,000 in year one, going up to $1 million in year seven, the proposed Montréal radio station's projected dollar share of the Montréal radio market will be at about 0.5 percent in year one and remain below 1 percent in year seven.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12289 We would also like to point out that the proposed Montréal radio station's sources of revenue would accrue as follows: 10 percent from local market radio station; 15 percent from increased budgets of existing radio advertisers; 40 percent from new advertisers; and about 35 percent would be repatriated from other media.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12290 In the final analysis, the long‑term outlook for the economy of the Montréal area is excellent and the proposed FM radio station can realistically set a revenue target of $700,000 in its first year of operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12291 Licensing this radio station will allow the significant synergies that will flow from our Mississauga radio undertaking licensed in Decision 2007‑117. Similar to the proposed Montréal radio station, our Mississauga radio station's programming orientation is set to be predominantly South Asian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12292 Dr. Agard...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12293 DR. AGARD: Chair and Commissioners, the proposed Montréal radio station's ethnic broadcasting plan for 106.3 FM fully meets the spirit and intent of the Broadcasting Act and the Commission's Ethnic Broadcasting Policy. From our perspective, it represents the most comprehensive and productive utilization of the 106.3 FM frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12294 With respect to radio broadcasting, Canada's third language communities and their ever‑growing need for basic radio service is on a collision course with an almost depleted source of usable public broadcasting frequencies. Hence, those few remaining viable frequencies must be utilized to their optimum advantage in reaching and serving the unserved and the underserved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12295 In seeking the Commission's approval for 106.3 FM, we would underline that its utilization of the frequency would be maximized through the extension of the first ethnic FM service to 14 third language communities and much more enhanced services to three language groups representing 150,000 unserved and underserved third language Canadians living within the greater Montréal area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12296 The proposed Montréal radio station's majority owners, Mr. and Mrs. Ray, are no strangers to Canadian broadcasting or the Commission. They are highly experienced career ethnic broadcasters who bring a fresh perspective, new ideas and approaches, new energies and commitment, and an acute sensitivity to Montréal's multicultural reality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12297 They have the broadly based support of Montréal's diverse ethnocultural communities who, in themselves, are determined to fully optimize this opportunity to gain an ethnic radio voice of their own on the radio waves. There is little risk in licensing this proposal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12298 MR. RAY: Together, Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, we respectfully ask for your approval for 106.3 FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12299 Thank you very much for the opportunity, Chair, and I and my colleagues will be ready for your questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12300 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Ray. Thank you to the Members of your Panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12301 I will direct my questions to you, Mr. Ray, and you may choose to ask one of your colleagues to complement the answer to the question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12302 My first question will be dealing with your programming plans.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12303 I note in reading your application that you are planning up to 121 hours of third language programming, which is about 96 percent of the broadcast week which is devoted to third language programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12304 Doesn't that mean that the five other hours will be either English or in French?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12305 MR. RAY: The five other hours would be in English, targeting the Indo‑Caribbean community, and that will be on weekdays from Monday to Friday from 8:00 to 9:00 p.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12306 THE CHAIRPERSON: So one hour each day of the week, and that will be in English but aimed at a specific community?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12307 MR. RAY: It will aim at two specific communities, those who are from ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12308 THE CHAIRPERSON: The Caribbean.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12309 MR. RAY: ‑‑ Guyana and those who are from Trinidad. So two distinct ethnic communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12310 THE CHAIRPERSON: Two distinct communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12311 So does that mean that in the other than 21 hours when you talk about third language, neither one will be French nor English?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12312 MR. RAY: Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12313 THE CHAIRPERSON: Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12314 Are you ready to accept that as a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12315 MR. RAY: Yes, I am.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12316 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12317 You have structured an advisory committee. Could you elaborate on that advisory committee?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12318 I understand that some of the members of your advisory committee are with you today. They may also wish to tell us how they see their role, but I will ask you to start with the make‑up of the advisory committee: how the members are selected and how will they be replaced over time and who takes responsibility, what their role is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12319 Are they only giving you advice ‑‑ well, they are advisory, so do they have any specific or direct access to staff? Could you please elaborate on that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12320 MR. RAY: Yes, Mr. Chairman. The Advisory Council, we call it, will be organized in the proposed ethnic radio station in Montréal, if we are fortunate enough to be licensed. The composition of the Council will consist initially of 12 voting members.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12321 I will take this opportunity also to mention, since you asked me, how it was formed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12322 The Advisory Council is not formally formed yet, but once we are licensed, we have a very good idea of who would be the members of that Council. It will consist of the people, different leaders within the various ethnic communities that we have consulted during the period prior to the application last year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12323 For example, I spoke to the President of ‑‑ there is a Lao Organization, the Buddhist Association of Québec, Mr. Thond, and he has agreed to be on the Advisory Council representing the Lao community. We also have the President of the Vietnamese Women's Association of Canada, Mrs. Hoa Truong who will be a member representing the Vietnamese community, and so on and so forth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12324 There is Cambodian community, Mr. Ong(ph), Turkish Community, Mr. Acom(ph). The Canadian‑Bulgarian Cultural Centre of Zonika(ph), the President Mrs. Bolitska(ph) will be part of the community and Mrs. Belki(ph) from another organization, and the Czech and Slovak community there is Mrs. Walstinova(ph). I spoke to her. I always have problems pronouncing her name, but she was very kind to us and agree to be on the Council.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12325 So that is an overview. There are more members than that. I could go on with the names.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12326 The Council will basically be monitoring the radio station and will give us advice as to whether the radio station is operating within their expectations, are meeting the needs of the community, the various communities. And we do understand that each ethnic community has its own unique needs in various ways. I could elaborate on that as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12327 For example, I found that a couple of communities, Lao community, the Cambodian, I found that they seem to be much less vocal communities even though they agreed to be on the Council. We told them we would certainly like you to monitor what is going on and they said that yes, we would love to do that because there are so many problems back home and our information is very difficult to access about what is going on back home.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12328 So these are the kinds of roles that they will be fulfilling, and hopefully with their feedback from the community we will be able to enhance further as time passes by the quality of the programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12329 Any comments you have, Dr. Agard?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12330 DR. AGARD: I think, Commissioners, the important thing of the Advisory Council would be twofold.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12331 The first, I think we need to mention that its operations will follow the standard advisory committee structure, in that there are no financial interests held by any of its members, that the term is a two‑year term, that it will occur on a rotational basis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12332 I note that when we first developed the membership we spoke of 12 representatives and I guess the concept at that time was to bring a balance to the language groupings, as well as the involvement of the individual communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12333 You note that there is a small discrepancy between the number of language groups and the membership.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12334 Mr. Ray and I have discussed that in view of that, at an appropriate time it can easily be extended to represent any language group that appears on the broadcasting schedule. I think the initial consultation suggested that since the primary broadcasting languages would belong to a South Asian configuration, then maybe some dual representation might be appropriate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12335 In the rotating fashion, those of us who work in ethnic communities recognize that some in‑depth consultation is necessary when once you are beginning to identify individuals as representatives of.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12336 And emphasis will also be placed on some youth representation because a significant portion of the broadcasting agenda is music. It is not simply spoken word. So in order to be contemporary and to allow for the involvement of emerging artists, we certainly will be looking towards that involvement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12337 MR. RAY: Just to answer your last question, Mr. Chairman, the Council membership will be normally for a two‑year term on a rotational basis. The Council members may be recommended by the radio station or the Council Chairman and shall be appointed by the station manager.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12338 The radio station employees may attend Council meetings as required with a view of improving programming services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12339 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have written bylaws, I can see, because you are reading from a script.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12340 MR. RAY: This application is written by me, so I do go back to some of the points that we raised so it is entirely consistent with the line that I have taken in writing this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12341 THE CHAIRPERSON: How many times a year will the Advisory Counsel meet?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12342 MR. RAY: Four times a year, every three months.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12343 THE CHAIRPERSON: Who calls the meeting?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12344 MR. RAY: The Chairperson of the Advisory Council would call the meeting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12345 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is responsible. Who makes up the agenda?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12346 MR. RAY: The Chairperson would make the agenda, would work with the station manager, together with the station manager, the management, to prepare the agenda.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12347 THE CHAIRPERSON: Does station staff participate at the Advisory Council? Do they attend, first, and are they sought to participate?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12348 MR. RAY: Yes. They will be encouraged to sit there and listen in, in order to get a feel of what the feedback of the communities have been and what advice has been provided by the Advisory Council.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12349 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will change and talk now about your Canadian content development program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12350 Thank you very much for your comments on the Advisory Council.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12351 Basically it is very straightforward. It is three items.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12352 A money commitment towards the Ethnic Broadcasters Scholarship Fund Initiative. That is already an existing program, the Ethnic Broadcasters Scholarship Fund, or is it something that you would be putting in place?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12353 MR. RAY: This, on behalf of the proposed new FM radio station we will put in place as a new initiative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12354 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is not something that is already taken care of or managed by the Canadian Association of Ethnic Broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12355 MR. RAY: No. That is our initiative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12356 THE CHAIRPERSON: That will be your own initiative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12357 MR. RAY: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12358 THE CHAIRPERSON: If I read your application well, you will be essentially helping students in journalism.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12359 MR. RAY: Exactly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12360 THE CHAIRPERSON: Who are registered at Concordia University.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12361 MR. RAY: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12362 THE CHAIRPERSON: You also have a grant program. Can you expand on that grant program?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12363 MR. RAY: Yes. We will have the grants program which a considerable amount of thought has gone into it. The station could most equitably assist emerging talents within these groups by offering the grants program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12364 The amounts have been specified in there which I can reiterate to you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12365 The applicants for the grants program would make the application to an independent jury that would be formulated consisting of Montréal's various ethnic communities, their leaders, the musical talents. Even though the radio station will initiate this initiative and the jury will evaluate each submission by ethnic artist and performance, the station and its management itself and its ownership itself will remain autonomous of the decisions made by that jury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12366 It is important to underline that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12367 I don't know if that answers your question, but we are very excited about the grants program and its potential to provide direct financial assistance to the broad range of ethnic performers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12368 Dr. Agard...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12369 DR. AGARD: I think the grants program is modeled after traditional granting opportunities. One of the performance evaluators, not tools but indicators in the station manager's portfolio is twofold. One is really the servicing of the Advisory Council and the other is the administration of the program, the grants program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12370 The responsibility is therefore a managerial responsibility in ensuring that the panel is established, in place and those processes are conducted on an annual basis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12371 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is not the Advisory Council who makes the ‑‑ at the end of the day it's the jury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12372 MR. RAY: No. In fact, essentially the station will establish an independent jury. It will consist of a cross‑section of member representatives of the performing arts discipline within the Montréal region. They will meet on a semi‑annual basis and invite ethnic talent to submit applications and we will promote that through the various ethnic communities, their organizations and also on‑air promotion to let the ethnic talents know that we are inviting them to submit applications for financial assistance, whether it is to buy instruments or to cut CDs or whatever else.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12373 THE CHAIRPERSON: They are mainly music driven?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12374 MR. RAY: It will be mainly music driven, yes. It will be mainly music driven, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12375 DR. AGARD: The reason for that is that we believe that the Concordia scholarships will really attract or develop the spoken word component.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12376 THE CHAIRPERSON: Component and the other one will drive the music component.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12377 DR. AGARD: The music, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12378 THE CHAIRPERSON: About your business plan, Mr. Ray, we note that the revenue you have projected seems to us to be somehow a bit aggressive particularly regarding the local advertising revenues. I'm sure you have closely looked into them, but obviously we are privy to all the financials of all the ethnic broadcasters of Montréal and other areas in the country. That has how we can sum up saying that your number seems to be quite aggressive compared with other similar sized operations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12379 Could you tell us how you did arrive at your first year local advertising?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12380 MR. RAY: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12381 THE CHAIRPERSON: And how confident you are in your numbers, because obviously you have strong commitments towards the CCD and I will be concerned down the road about your ability to meet your CCD commitment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12382 MR. RAY: Yes, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12383 To answer that, I must point out first, Mr. Chairman, that the sources of revenue as far as the different ethnic programming segments of this proposed station is concerned are divided into two.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12384 The first is the station‑produced programming ‑‑ that would be predominantly South Asian ‑‑ would generate a total of $440,000 in year one. The balance of the $260,000 would come from the other brokered programs which would be in the non‑South Asian language, or I would say that non‑station produced languages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12385 Now, let's first look at the $440,000 from the largest group, that is the South Asian community. There are a few things that we kept in mind.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12386 First of all, we know from having of course read the other applications that even a sideband, an SCMO in Montréal, has no problem generating about $220,000 or $225,000 in one year. That is kind of a closed‑circuit radio. An over‑the‑air radio would have a much greater reach, a much wider reach, including in the cars.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12387 The most lucrative time of an over‑the‑air radio station is during the morning and afternoon drive time. That is something that an SCMO cannot take advantage of. That is one element that brings the projected revenue so high.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12388 The other is, the population of the South Asian community in Montréal, a vibrant community, with only one and a half hours, that is 90 minutes of programming, currently available on CFMB, late in the night on Friday half an hour, and late in the night, near midnight, for one hour on Saturday night.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12389 It is an untapped business community and the size of that community in 2001 was approximately 61,000, according to the 2001 Census. In the addendum I have provided the Census data from Stats Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12390 If we look at another market as a comparison, Vancouver has approximately twice the population of the South Asian community that we see in Montréal. The population there is about 122,000 to 125,000, if I remember correctly from 2001. In Vancouver, two radio stations two years ago were licensed simultaneously to serve predominantly the South Asian community of 125,000 people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12391 The number of businesses in Vancouver is approximately twice within the South Asian community of that of Montréal. There are approximately, in our estimation, 700 to 900 businesses within the Montréal South Asian community, including real estate agents, financial services, immigration consultants, dentists, and not only the restaurants and grocery stores and fashion stores, jewellery stores.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12392 The $440,000 per year from the Montréal's affluent business community is therefore easily achievable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12393 I would go as far as to say that we are confident that this number could be conservative, and we are going to use the resources of the South Asian revenue if necessary to, if I could put it that way, subsidize some of the very small community groups that we propose to serve that may on their own not be able to have either programming or a radio station of their own.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12394 Dr. Agard...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12395 DR. AGARD: Chair, in terms of third language, visible minority or racial minority communities and business sectors, it has traditionally been difficult to quantify in advance what that potentially is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12396 However, based on other licences that have been granted and have survived in highly racialized minority communities, we feel confident that there are untapped resources in those communities. The South Asian community is a very business‑oriented community and this proposal is really based on precedents in other broadcasting entities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12397 We are relying heavily, as much as 40 percent, on new business, and another 35 percent of that revenue would come from repatriating advertising, particularly from the print media in Montréal where there is a healthy community‑based newsprint, but news organization.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12398 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Agard, you just touched my secondary question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12399 How confident are you? Have you talked to the business community as to how attracted they are by a radio service like yours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12400 MR. RAY: Yes. I'm glad you asked that question because it brings to light what we found.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12401 Something to keep in mind is also that in our experience, what I have watched over the last 27 years of my experience in radio ‑‑ and if I could just take one minute to give that background to help clarify my next statement ‑‑ in 1979, when I was involved in the licensing process of CKER radio in Edmonton and the radio station went on air, the challenge that we had was the fact that it was the first multicultural radio station in Edmonton and all the advertisers, from of course the various ethnic communities, the ethnic advertisers, were all inexperienced. They had no idea what advertising on radio would be like.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12402 In Montréal, fortunately, the main group, the South Asian market, is quite experienced in advertising on radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12403 Now, having said that, it might come to mind that I said there is no programming available on the radio. Well, there is no over‑the‑air programming available in Montréal except 90 minutes per week, but they have the experience of advertising on the sidebands in Montréal and also in another radio program that was there until a few years ago. I think it was five hours a week on CFMB. That program went off the air quite a few years ago actually.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12404 I lived in Montréal for some time in the late 1970s and the program was on then and also in the 1980s.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12405 But the experience that the South Asian business community has will help us a lot.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12406 When I spoke to some of the groups, whether jewellers or real estate agents, restaurants, fashion stores, they were all very excited about the fact that we could give them the vehicle to advertise on over‑the‑air radio that they could access their clients during drive time. They were very excited about that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12407 To answer your question, to make a long story short, yes, I have a pretty good feel of what the business community would be able to offer to the proposed FM radio station in Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12408 THE CHAIRPERSON: In the eventuality that you don't meet your expected revenue ‑‑ the economics is more problematic than the one you just described and one that you are expecting ‑‑ you have made some commitments regarding the Canadian Content Development program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12409 How would you deal with your commitments? Will you make your payment in accordance with the plan that you have given to us or will you obviously contemplate other alternatives?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12410 MR. RAY: Yes. To answer your question, I was listening to you and I was also looking for the page where I have the statement of changes in cash flow of the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12411 I would answer that in the affirmative by saying that if we do not meet the target, say during the first, second, third or whatever years, I would point out that with the investment of $600,000 in year one, cash at the end of the year is $472,000 left over. So that is quite a bit more than sufficient to cover any shortfall and we would have no problem fulfilling our obligations vis‑à‑vis the CCD.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12412 As we go on from the first to the seventh year in the projected financial position, we are in very healthy shape.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12413 Once again to say concretely, there is going to be absolutely no problem with this investment to meet those obligations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12414 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Ray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12415 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: Mr. Ray, you compared the South Asian populations, which is the financial locomotive at least in the first years for your business. You compared the populations of Vancouver and Montréal, and you said Vancouver is roughly twice as much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12416 Do you know ‑‑ and it is a very unfair question and if you can't answer it, it is perfectly normal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12417 But would you know what percentage of the Vancouver South Asian population is Punjabi in origin?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12418 MR. RAY: If you can give me a couple of minutes, I have the numbers with me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12419 But to give you the answer, yes, the majority ‑‑ you said Punjabi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12420 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: I said Punjabi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12421 MR. RAY: All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12422 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: Do you know where I'm going?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12423 MR. RAY: Yes, I think I know where you are going.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12424 With the Punjabi, there are two Punjabi. Punjabi is the language, so there are two communities, the Sikhs in the Hindus. The majority there would be Punjabi speaking.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12425 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: But it turns out even the Hindu Punjabis are a hell of a lot richer than anybody else.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12426 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: I lived for nearly four years in India and I learned that India is not a citizenship, it is a world in itself.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12427 The only reason I'm asking you that is that to my sense ‑‑ purely anecdotal, I lived in Montréal for most of my life, but I spent some time in Vancouver, too ‑‑ that the percentage of Punjabis in Montréal, even in half the South Asian community, would be far lower than it is in Vancouver. Is that fair?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12428 MR. RAY: The Punjabi population in Montréal in proportion would still be the largest.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12429 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: It would be the largest?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12430 MR. RAY: Yes, it would be the largest. Next to that would be the non‑Punjabis like the Tamils and the Bengali‑speaking who are about ‑‑ Bengali speaking, surprisingly when you see the numbers, is about 12,000 including those who are Bengali speaking from India and Bengali speaking from Bangladesh. It is exactly the same language.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12431 Then the Tamil speaking, approximately 8,500.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12432 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: I will tell you where I'm going with it just for what it's worth, and you may or may not buy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12433 It seems to me that the Montréal South Asian community is more professional and less business oriented than the Vancouver South Asian community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12434 If you tell me I'm wrong or you tell me you are banking on the fact that I am wrong, fine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12435 You know, professionals don't advertise. University professors, doctors don't advertise. Waiters in Indian restaurants don't advertise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12436 I'm just fishing a little to see whether you have considered these ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12437 MR. RAY: Before I let Dr. Agard further elaborate on that, I will tell you something else very interesting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12438 The professionals who do not advertise, and the doctors who don't advertise, they do eat Indian food and wear Indian clothes and they do travel a lot to India and Pakistan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12439 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: They are consumers. They are consumers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12440 MR. RAY: They are big consumers and you need many establishments to fulfil their needs. For example, the number of restaurants in Montréal would not be much less, not significantly less than in Vancouver. Maybe a bit less in proportion, I'm not sure, but I guess pretty close.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12441 But the number of jewellers, the number of those who sell Indian clothes, saris and the Punjabi suits, would be the same in proportion. The mediation consultants would be the same in proportion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12442 So to answer your question, that is not entirely right but it is true that Montréal population is more professional and the Vancouver South Asian population is ‑‑ well, it is a combination of, you know, highly educated professionals as well as maybe those who are in different trades.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12443 DR. AGARD: I don't think I have much to add to Mr. Ray's comment, except to note that if we follow the lead of the print media in the language community, a large number of service providers advertise because the metropolis is so large that they do need to have a vehicle to bring those, not necessarily audiences but consumers directly to their door.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12444 So I think that is a unique configuration in racial minorities in language markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12445 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12446 As you noted, in Montréal there is already an SCMO that is providing South Asian programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12447 MR. RAY: I'm sorry, I lost you on the last few words. Can you kindly ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12448 THE CHAIRPERSON: There is an SCMO operator that is currently broadcasting towards the South Asian population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12449 How would your proposed service impact on Radio Humsafar?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12450 MR. RAY: How would the proposed radio station, if licensed, have an impact on the SCMOs?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12451 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, exactly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12452 MR. RAY: It would have some impact on the SCMO, but I would explain why it will not have a significant impact, not so significant that they would not remain viable. It is also from watching SCMOs elsewhere in Canada, including Toronto and Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12453 SCMO is more like a subscription service and you have to sell the radio sets to the community that you serve. Many thousand sets, I presume, have been sold to consumers who would continue to listen to them, number one, during times that they are not able to listen to South Asian programming; so 8 o'clock onward, because 8 to 9 o'clock we do have programming Monday to Friday that is catering to the Indo‑Caribbean community who look like us, they eat the same food, they dress like us and they sing the same songs. So the South Asians would be able to relate very well to that programming segment because most of the music is also from Bollywood.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12454 But from that point on to the morning we do not have South Asian programming, so the only way that the Montréal South Asian community would be able to access some South Asian programming would be through the SCMO.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12455 As a result, they would become complementary to us, or we would become complementary to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12456 All weekend we do not have any South Asian programming proposed and therefore the SCMO would thrive during the weekends.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12457 We have to settle with the idea that we would not be able to get across to the South Asian community during the weekend. SCMO would be the only way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12458 The other thing is that in the Montréal market where there are a number of radio stations over the air providing South Asian programming and still there are right now four Tamil SCMOs and one fulltime Punjabi language SCMO. The Punjabi has been doing extremely well. Two of the Tamil SCMOs, I know the three parties well. The two Tamil SCMOs are also doing very well. I know it is a very large market, but at the same time not one, but almost like five SCMOs going on at the same time and surviving.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12459 The same thing in Vancouver: two fulltime over‑the‑air radio stations, predominantly South Asian. In addition to that, there are two fulltime, 24‑hour over‑the‑air radio stations on the U.S. side of the border, on 1400 and 1650 AM, that 24 hours they are broadcasting to Vancouver. The studios are in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12460 So if so many undertakings can survive together and coexist, then I would say that the SCMO in Montréal is going to be viable and there are all the reasons I gave to believe that it would be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12461 DR. AGARD: Chair and Commissioners, from a broader policy perspective, having worked with the Toronto SCMOs and on‑air licensing of an FM recently and continuing to observe that market in particular, from a broad policy perspective, I think that what happens is that from the Commission's perspective the greater competition brings a greater quality of programming. So that's one asset.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12462 The other is that I really look at it as the expanding of the availability of diverse programming within that particular marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12463 They are not necessarily ‑‑ and Mr. Ray and I have discussed this; that really the introduction makes available a greater diversity. So you could tune to your radio in the car and if you want a certain directed programming you could become a subscriber, just like cablevision, for example.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12464 MR. RAY: Beyond that, also listener choice will be available to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12465 THE CHAIRPERSON: As you know, they are also applicants for AM frequencies to provide third language service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12466 Would your service and the AM service make it in the Montréal market with the ethnic community that is available?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12467 MR. RAY: To further understand you clearly, you mean if two were ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12468 THE CHAIRPERSON: If the Commission were to grant an AM licence at the same time as your proposed service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12469 MR. RAY: If you would permit me to answer it in the following manner, Mr. Chairman, maybe I should say which one would have the least impact on us and which one would have the most impact on us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12470 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12471 MR. RAY: If I have your permission to talk about both AM and FM, it will answer your question but it will also give an idea ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12472 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand that you will be coming back as intervenors, so I'm not opening a door to allow you to make an intervention, but only for the record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12473 MR. RAY: Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12474 THE CHAIRPERSON: Let's take the question in a positive manner and say: Could on AM and FM service, owned and operated by two different operators, survive in the South Asian community in the Montréal market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12475 MR. RAY: If the answer had to be in yes and no, the answer would be yes, both would be able to survive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12476 But if you would permit me to also elaborate, the other two ethnic AM ‑‑ well, one of them, Radio Humsafar, which is also a very successful SCMO in Montréal, their entire programming would be a duplication of what we also are going to provide if we are licensed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12477 The other applicant, SSTV, the vast majority of its programming also would be duplication of our programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12478 Therefore, if a choice had to be made, then I would say that these two proposals would have much greater impact on us than, for example, CHCR, which Hellenic will have no impact on us because the groups they want to serve are not the same, except a very small amount, you know, four hours of South Asian and I guess a couple of hours of Vietnamese they are proposing. We can always sit down with them and make sure that there is no scheduling conflict.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12479 So they will have the least impact on us, but the other two would have more impact. But then, yes, we can survive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12480 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right. That suffices at this stage of the proceeding. I will come back to programming because staff came to see me saying that I skipped a page.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12481 THE CHAIRPERSON: You will be devoting 14 hours a week toward news and weather, traffic and sports. Have you broken it down between each of the components and how local it would be versus national and international?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12482 MR. RAY: Talking of the news I guess first ‑‑ I think we are talking about the news, 14 hours of news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12483 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12484 MR. RAY: All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12485 The news, we have proposed ‑‑ and this from our previous experience in Toronto as well as in Edmonton ‑‑ that approximately one‑third would be local news, one‑third national and one‑third international, because ethnic communities, each one has a homeland that they have come from. So we would divide that roughly one‑third, one‑third and one‑third.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12486 THE CHAIRPERSON: How will you gather, say, the local portion of the news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12487 MR. RAY: We would provide the tools to the producers by way of not only the Internet, but also I must mention that we do propose to invite the journalism students from Concordia to report to us, also local secondary schools.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12488 But that's not the primary source. It's because it came to my mind and before I forget it, I might as well put it on record that we would encourage them to report to us what is happening in the community, what is happening in the youth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12489 But also our staffing, we have allocated two news staff during the station‑produced programming Monday to Friday: one part‑time in the morning and one part‑time in the evening, whose only job would be to gather news, local news, and of course national BN, translated BN and get direct feeds from the BBC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12490 They would also be encouraged, whenever possible, if there is a major event happening, and if there is no conflict with their schedule that they are supposed to be on air in the morning and the evening, to attend those, or to report from a remote location where the event is taking place.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12491 So the emphasis on local programming, local weather, local traffic, local events would be very prominent on our news, both morning, evening and day time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12492 DR. AGARD: As well, the brokered programming part of that agreement requires ten minutes of news directed at those particular communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12493 THE CHAIRPERSON: Those brokered programs are locally produced. They are not coming from overseas or Toronto or Vancouver or Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12494 MR. RAY: They are all going to be locally produced and all the non‑staff producers, the brokered programming, would in fact not only be producing them locally but also the news portion and the programming, they will be encouraged ‑‑ in fact, they will be required to follow the same guidelines as staff producers, including if we have seminars to enhance programming quality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12495 I'm a trainer myself and I do workshops and I teach various things to ethnic communities, how to be effective broadcasters, voice modulation, or whatever else, news reading.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12496 We would require them to attend these workshops and seminars.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12497 If I remember correctly, I think you asked me to break down the news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12498 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, you said a third, a third, a third, 14 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12499 MR. RAY: And I also have the breakdown as to which programming will have how much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12500 But a total of 14 hours, approximately. To be exact, it's 14 hours and 15 minutes per week of news programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12501 THE CHAIRPERSON: Where will your brokers go to produce their programs? At your station? Or are they equipped? Do you know them now?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12502 MR. RAY: Some of them, yes. But there are no contracts in place. It would be premature to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12503 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12504 MR. RAY: To answer your question as to where they will produce, there are two options that they would have. If I remember correctly, I have devoted a paragraph in the supplementary brief to the effect that they would have full access to the radio station's production facility, as well as the radio station's music library.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12505 They would be encouraged to produce their programs within the radio station premises. If they have the facility at their own place, if they can afford it, well, that will be no problem of course.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12506 THE CHAIRPERSON: Back to your own local programming, if my memory serves me well in reading your brief, everything seems to be taped or pre‑produced before going on air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12507 Am I right? Did I understand your application right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12508 So the local live portion seems to be always prerecorded.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12509 MR. RAY: In fact, the answer would be no. There is only one segment ‑‑ which I'm not sure if you are going to ask me that question later and I'm jumping the gun.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12510 But about what proportion of our total programming will be pretaped or voicetracked, it will be all live‑to‑air except one segment during the weekday. In the morning Punjabi program from 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m. and there's an Urdu program from 10:00 a.m. to 12:00 noon on weekdays catering to the Pakistani community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12511 The news person in the morning would be fluently bilingual in Punjabi and Hindustani, as most of those who have migrated from northwest India are; the western part of Pakistan and the eastern end of India, the Punjab, and there is a border in between. They are fluently bilingual in Punjabi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12512 So the news person in the morning would produce the Punjabi programming but he would also produce and voicetrack the Urdu news, which will be broadcast at 11:00 a.m., a ten‑minute news ‑‑ it is probably 11:00 a.m. So there is that one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12513 And in the afternoon, there will be possibly a voicetracked news item, early in the afternoon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12514 In addition to that, there is going to be no other pretaped program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12515 For example, if there is an interview, if a member of the Montreal Board of Education or Montreal City Police or Elections Canada or maybe the Health Department, if somebody is being interviewed, it will not be pretaped. It will be all live‑to‑air, an interview with an artist or a social worker. It will all be live‑to‑air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12516 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have just been granted a licence for Mississauga. Will you have synergies with your new operation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12517 MR. RAY: Absolutely there will be ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12518 THE CHAIRPERSON: And of which type?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12519 MR. RAY: As you know, the Mississauga radio station is set to be predominantly South Asian. Let me take the musical part of it first.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12520 Toronto perhaps is the biggest resource we have in Toronto of local talents. That is one area that we would be able to send a lot of the Canadian content that is locally produced to Montreal. So that is one area where our Mississauga undertaking would greatly help the Canadian content of the Montreal station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12521 The other part, I'm thinking that there could be some programming that could be exclusively produced for the Montreal radio station, to be broadcast only on the Montreal radio station. But because the resources of on‑air talent is also abundant in Toronto ‑‑ I used to have a radio program on a radio station which was 60 hours a week. Unfortunately, the ownership changed and the new owners didn't want any ethnic programming and we had to go off the air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12522 I had 21 professional broadcasters who were working for us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12523 To make a long story short, there is huge resource ‑‑ not that I'm going to bring them to Montreal and do all my Montreal programming. It will be all locally produced. There are good resources available in Montreal also available that we will be able to use. We can polish them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12524 But the synergies would include that and also the experience that we would have from our Mississauga undertaking, we do expect to put it on air before the Montreal if we are fortunate enough to be blessed with a licence here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12525 Dr. Agard, you can probably add to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12526 DR. AGARD: I always like to go to broad policy‑type descriptors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12527 Commissioners, I know that you should recognize that the Mississauga approval only came rather recently so we are still in the process of understanding that and the implications of another licensed FM of the same nature.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12528 There are a few things I think that would emerge should we be successful with this frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12529 One is the obvious economies of scale. One should not avoid recognizing that; managerial. Another one of particular interest is the service providers in terms of news and contractual arrangements, for example, with Voice of America, Radio India, et cetera, would certainly be beneficial.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12530 I think we also attempted to evaluate the impact on emerging Canadian content and emerging Canadian talent; that there would be some synergies there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12531 As well, the program development in terms of recognizing that facilities would involve the development of programs specific to the Montréal initiative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12532 Lastly I think from a national broadcasting perspective, the synergies with respect to third language broadcasting specific to the South Asian communities, we have that intercultural community development access that both stations can in fact engage in and carry, simultaneous casting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12533 I know that we have discussed the fact that Montréal has unique. The station has to have its local unique programming, and so the synergies are in terms of ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12534 THE CHAIRPERSON: But in most instances in the groups it is the back office where the synergies are taking place.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12535 DR. AGARD: Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12536 THE CHAIRPERSON: There is only one area for accounting and one area for traffic and one area ‑‑ so that is something you didn't allude to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12537 DR. AGARD: Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12538 THE CHAIRPERSON: But as a matter of principle it has been on your radar screen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12539 DR. AGARD: Radar, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12540 MR. RAY: In fact, to just round that off, the Montréal South Asian community ‑‑ of course the station if licensed would be predominantly catering to the various communities within the South Asian community, and the same community, the South Asian community in Toronto has a relationship as well. There is a lot of synergy flowing back and forth between Toronto and Montréal within the South Asian community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12541 The communication between the two would be further enhanced and it would be very interesting and beneficial to the two communities when sometimes we can have a link and have say an open line show with a 1‑800 number with both stations going simultaneously on air and talking to each other.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12542 That would be another synergy that would further enhance the quality of the programming and benefit the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12543 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Ray, we need to clarify some issues regarding the control of your proposed station. There seems to be some contradiction in the documents that have been filed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12544 Obviously you are the majority shareholder and have legal control of 51 percent of the shares of the company, but in your shareholder agreement we read that the Board of Directors of the proposed organization will hold the legal control of the company.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12545 We need to clarify who really has the legal control. Is that the members of the board through their shareholder agreement or is it you as the majority owner of 51 percent of the shares?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12546 MR. RAY: The control of the licence ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12547 THE CHAIRPERSON: The ultimate control.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12548 MR. RAY: The ultimate control of the licence will be with Neeti P. Ray. That is myself. When we refer to the Board of Directors, as far as the policies are concerned of the station, whether it is programming and some other aspects of the station, but as far as the licence is concerned, as far as fulfilling the conditions of the licence is concerned, the local programming, those would lie ‑‑ I will be, Neeti P. Ray will be ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12549 THE CHAIRPERSON: The ultimate control, as the ultimate control of the corporation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12550 MR. RAY: Will be with Neeti P. Ray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12551 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think your shareholder agreement is only a proposed shareholder agreement. Before making it the final document, if you are granted a licence, would you clear that up so that it is clearly stated that you have the ultimate control of the corporation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12552 MR. RAY: Absolutely, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12553 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12554 Now I have my technical questions and I appreciate that your engineer was here yesterday. I appreciate very much that Mr. Cahn was here and I understand that he has stayed and he also led me to believe that he had a doctor's appointment this morning. So I appreciate the attendance of Mr. Moltner on your behalf to help out with the more technical questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12555 My questions are exactly the same for everybody so he already has a bit of an idea of what they are going to be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12556 Obviously AVR is currently operating out of a temporary transmission site and they are expected to move to a more permanent site. We don't know, at least as of today, which site it is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12557 I'm looking at your plan. You have identified the Montréal Stock Exchange Building, because you have a letter from McGill Laurentian in your file that you are planning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12558 In the eventuality that AVR goes to the same location, what will be the impact on your service? Then we will look at it if they go somewhere else.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12559 MR. RAY: Before Jim answers the technical side of that, of course we do understand that our undertaking is predicated technically an AVR and we have to go where AVR goes. We understand that their proposal, as submitted to Industry Canada with their application, was based on the Stock Exchange Tower and that is where we propose to put our antenna, presuming that AVR would do the same.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12560 But having said that, of course we have to be with them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12561 Maybe I will like Jim Moltner further elaborate on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12562 MR. MOLTNER: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could clarify. I don't want to take away your ability to ask the same question over and over, but AVR, as the incumbent, provided a blanket agreement to allow collocated second adjacents, and that agreement provided that AVR would have the right to choose the site and the incoming second adjacent would be required to collocate with them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12563 THE CHAIRPERSON: So the plan that has been prepared by Mr. Cahn takes that into consideration and makes the assumption that it will be the Montréal Stock Exchange Building?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12564 MR. MOLTNER: It does, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12565 THE CHAIRPERSON: It does.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12566 Obviously there are some potential interference issues of being a collocator and they may have some bearing on the ability for the listeners, say in the Montréal downtown area, to have reception problems.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12567 How have you figured that out by collocating? Will it be a problem, a significant problem for the service that Mr. Ray wants to provide?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12568 MR. MOLTNER: In terms of the second adjacent?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12569 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12570 MR. MOLTNER: Well, I think I would like to dispel that as well. There is no evidence that indicates that even the cheapest receivers have any problem receiving second adjacents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12571 In fact, the most recent test data, which I believe it comes from Industry Canada, from their second adjacent testing in the laboratory a few years ago, indicates that even the cheapest receivers should have absolutely no problem with second adjacent signals as long as those signals are comparable in level.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12572 In general, cheap receivers have a problem with adjacent signals, whether they be second adjacent or third adjacent or 14th adjacent, when one of the signals is much stronger than the other signal. That is not the case here. Both signals will be exactly equal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12573 To summarize, we don't anticipate any interference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12574 THE CHAIRPERSON: You don't anticipate any interference. But if there was to be interference, have you looked into the type of solutions that you will have to undertake to diminish the level of interference?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12575 One of the ways usually engineers propose is to increase power, but I think I understand you both will be going at the maximum authorized power for the frequencies that you would be allocated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12576 MR. MOLTNER: That's correct. Well, potential interference is not just a second adjacent issue. It also happens with third adjacent and fourth adjacent, which the Commission licenses routinely and Industry Canada authorizes routinely and people deal with it. They either replace the affected radios with a better radio or in extreme cases they move sites to less populated areas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12577 It's not just a second adjacent issue and it's not doom and gloom and life goes on. That's why we have our radio system in the major markets in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12578 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, my last question is regarding IBOC implementation. If you are collocating at the same location, will you be able to implement IBOC if the standard was authorized for Canada?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12579 MR. MOLTNER: Well, I would like to say first of all that IBOC has not been adopted for Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12580 THE CHAIRPERSON: But there are some strong indications ‑‑ at least the Commission sent a message saying that we will undertake to look at any application that will propose IBOC as long as Industry Canada accepts the standard. It is our understanding that someone somewhere at Industry Canada is currently working on it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12581 MR. MOLTNER: I appreciate that, but there are also strong indications, particularly from the CBC, that IBOC may not work in the Canadian broadcasting environment. So I guess my point is, would I today exclude a perfectly viable frequency in the market such as Montréal for a future technology which may never happen? That doesn't make sense to me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12582 But having said that, from the test results I have seen, predominantly the CBC's IBOC testing of last summer I believe, there is no reason to believe that second adjacent stations either/or both running IBOC cannot coexist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12583 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cram has a question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12584 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12585 Mr. Ray, it sounds like your expenses would now be adjusted as a consequence of the synergies you were thinking of having with the Mississauga station, and I'm wondering if you could just file revised expenses?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12586 DR. AGARD: Commissioner, I would assume that they would have to be very preliminary. I don't know if that adds ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12587 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Most projections are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12588 DR. AGARD: I would say yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12589 MR. RAY: Yes, we would be able to do that, but if you don't mind, just further clarify exactly what you are looking for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12590 Are you looking for the expenses resulting as a result of implementing the synergies?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12591 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. I mean, your expenses now in this application, because I think you said today that you would have significant synergies and you have talked about them. So clearly we want to look at what your expenses would be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12592 MR. RAY: Yes. How much time would I have to do that, just so that I can ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12593 THE CHAIRPERSON: A very short period of time.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12594 MS LAGACÉ: Tomorrow we will start with Phase III, I think most probably, so if you could file this with the Commission ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12595 THE CHAIRPERSON: Tomorrow morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12596 MS LAGACÉ: ‑‑ tomorrow morning at the latest.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12597 MR. RAY: All right. Maybe I will discuss with you what format you wanted in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12598 In fact, do you want me to take the same pages and redo them from the methodology pages, or something like that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12599 MS LAGACÉ: I think that would be a good method to provide that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12600 MR. RAY: All right, no problem at all. We will do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12601 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12602 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12603 Legal counsel...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12604 MR. RAY: If I have your permission, and for the sake of the staff so they don't run into any problems, would I have the permission to point out two typographical mistakes in the application that may help in case they detect those mistakes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12605 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think the record is complete. Obviously we are trying not to ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12606 MR. RAY: All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12607 THE CHAIRPERSON: When we quote, something that we seldom do anyhow, we quote generally speaking from the transcript rather than from the application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12608 MR. RAY: Of course, yes. It relates to the language that we described in the description and if you find any confusion as to "Oh, this language was not proposed but in that particular place it is", it is because it is a typographical mistake. That is all I will say.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12609 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Ray, ladies, Mr. Agard, Mr. Moltner, thank you very much for your presentation this morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12610 We will take a 15‑minute break, so we will be back at 10:45 with the next application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12611 MR. RAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to staff.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1027 / Suspension à 1027

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1051 / Reprise à 1051

LISTNUM 1 \l 12612 LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame la secrétaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12613 THE SECRETARY: We will now proceed with item 16 on the agenda, which is an application by International Harvesters for Christ Evangelistic Association Inc. for a licence to operate a French language (51%) and English‑language (49%) FM commercial specialty (religious) radio programming undertaking in Montreal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12614 The new station would operate on frequency 106.3 MHz (channel 292A) with an average effective radiated power of 320 watts (maximum effective radiated power of 1,200 watts/antenna height of 209 metres).

LISTNUM 1 \l 12615 Appearing for the applicant is Reverend Jeff Lutes who will introduce his colleagues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12616 You will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation. Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12617 REV. LUTES: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner French, Commissioner Cram, I would like to introduce to you my colleague Rob Adams. He is the founder of Open Hand Productions. He himself is a Christian artist, composer, broadcaster, and Open Hand Productions promotes local Quebec artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12618 Jim Moltner is with us. He is our engineer with Technics Ltd.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12619 Unable to appear before you today is Jo Casse(ph). He is a retired Montreal businessman visiting Europe presently.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12620 Luc Gingras is a Quebec music recording artist and he is in Alberta for television taping.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12621 Application No. 2006‑1224‑3.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12622 The outline for our presentation:

LISTNUM 1 \l 12623 ‑ slides 1‑2, the introduction;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12624 ‑ slides 3‑6, vision;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12625 ‑ slides 7‑13, current situation;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12626 ‑ problems, slides 14 20;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12627 ‑ slides 21‑30, the proposed solution;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12628 ‑ 31 44, the benefits;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12629 ‑ 45‑48, the conclusion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12630 M. ADAMS : Inspiration Montréal : la vision.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12631 REV. LUTES: Granting this licence will:

LISTNUM 1 \l 12632 M. ADAMS :

LISTNUM 1 \l 12633 ‑ aider à créer une diversité de voix;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12634 ‑ desservir une portion importante d'auditeurs à Montréal dont la préférence musicale n'est pas comblée;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12635 ‑ permettre à Montréal d'avoir ce que d'autres villes au Canada ont déjà;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12636 ‑ progresser selon la croissance de l'industrie musicale;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12637 ‑ améliorer la société et privilégier les familles;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12638 ‑ aider les néo‑Canadiens à développer un sentiment d'appartenance;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12639 ‑ encourager le développement de l'industrie d'enregistrement de la musique Gospel et la programmation québécoise;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12640 ‑ plus que tout, inspirer Montréal avec une musique rafraîchissante et pro‑famille.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12641 Inspiration 106.3 : un reflet de Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12642 REV. LUTES: Vision.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12643 The vision is for a balanced radio station that will inspire religious development as it promotes Quebec artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12644 Inspiration Montréal: Current situation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12645 New Canadian music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12646 The Canadian Gospel Music Recording industry is growing strongly, thanks in large measure to the CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12647 M. ADAMS : La musique Gospel augmente en popularité. Les ventes ont augmenté de 80 pour cent durant la dernière décennie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12648 REV. LUTES: There is an overall decline in music industry sales except Christian music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12649 M. ADAMS : Plus de 30 stations religieuses au Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12650 REV. LUTES: Montreal needs a new station that serves the wider religious community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12651 Family‑friendly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12652 Inspiration 106.3 will answer the growing call for family‑friendly radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12653 Now is the time for Inspiration 106.3 to meet this need.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12654 M. ADAMS : Un soutien financier solide.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12655 REV. LUTES: Harvesters has years of experience operating a station in a bilingual setting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12656 M. ADAMS : Inspiration Montréal : Problèmes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12657 Radiodiffusion américaine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12658 Les Canadiens ne devraient pas avoir à dépendre uniquement sur les États‑Unis pour leur besoin en matière de programmation religieuse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12659 Inspiration 106.3 offrira à Montréal une alternative canadienne et une alternative québécoise diffusée 24 heures par jour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12660 Format manquant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12661 On peut se demander pourquoi on retrouve pratiquement tous les formats sur le cadran de syntonisation, à l'exception d'une station chrétienne bilingue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12662 REV. LUTES: Vulgar and distasteful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12663 Inspiration 106.3 will be a clean influence. The lyrics of some songs in jock‑talk is becoming increasingly vulgar in mainstream radio. The public is finding this distasteful. Listening time increases to religious radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12664 The Montreal market is well able to support a religious FM radio station. A new religious FM radio station will have little to no financial impact on the existing stations as it will draw on financial sources that are not in competition with existing stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12665 M. ADAMS : Format non doublé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12666 Ceci ne sera pas un duplicata de Radio Ville‑Marie. Nous diffuserons la musique pertinente retrouvée couramment sur le palmarès. Nous comblerons les besoins religieux des personnes au‑delà de la foi catholique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12667 Les deux langues officielles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12668 La raison de la requête de 51 pour cent de contenu français et 49 pour cent de contenu anglais respecte la disponibilité actuelle des programmations musicales et religieuses, afin de permettre le développement ultérieur de la programmation radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12669 REV. LUTES: Support.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12670 We believe an AM station generally serves a different demographic than an FM, and hence, our application is not mutually exclusive to that of M. André Joly. We are in full support of his application and applaud his efforts to serve a primarily French religious format. We feel that in no way would his proposed station negatively affect ours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12671 Our application is broader in scope in that we are recognizing the diverse needs of the entire religious community to be served in both official languages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12672 Balanced programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12673 We are in complete agreement with the Religious Broadcasting Policy as set out in Public Notice CRTC 1993‑78. Our loggers are diligently maintained. We are very strict in ensuring that anyone on the radio is fully aware of this policy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12674 We will not restrict other religions from having access. With kind, courteous guidance, we will make this service available to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12675 M. ADAMS : Solidité de plan d'affaires.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12676 Nous possédons une expérience professionnelle, montrée dans le maintien de programmation religieuse de haute qualité dans le cadre de paramètres financiers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12677 Il y a plusieurs exemples de stations religieuses à travers le Canada qui ont des bases financières solides : à titre d'exemple, CHRI à Ottawa et Life 100.3 à Barrie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12678 Notre réseau comprend les stations qui ont ce même niveau de succès. CMC Canada fournit de la musique actuelle avec une emphase particulière sur les chanteurs canadiens. Notre style de programmation cadre bien avec un grand centre métropolitain comme Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12679 Autonomie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12680 Notre deuxième application diffère de la première en ce que nous démontrons que ceci est à la base un effort montréalais qui reflète la diversité des besoins des auditeurs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12681 Cette application établit l'autonomie du groupe montréalais dans la direction de sa propre station, tout en bénéficiant du fait d'être membre d'une plus grande famille.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12682 Fondamentalement, nous agissons en tant que facilitateur afin de permettre aux Montréalais d'avoir leur propre station. Nous nous voyons comme desservant Montréal en permettant à la communauté religieuse d'obtenir ce qui, autrement, pourrait sembler alarmant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12683 REV. LUTES: Sensitivity to listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12684 This application is reflective of the religious community of Montreal. Harvesters has a long track record of being sensitive to its listeners. We are constantly inviting our listeners to give us their feedback so these stations will be a reflection of their tastes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12685 Inspiration Montreal will be no different. The team of broadcasters for Inspiration Montreal has over 75 years of combined experience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12686 Strong need for a religious stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12687 99 percent of the people in the region declare a religious affiliation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12688 M. ADAMS : Protestants : 207 940

LISTNUM 1 \l 12689 Orthodoxes : 94 680

LISTNUM 1 \l 12690 Chrétiens : 37 445

LISTNUM 1 \l 12691 Musulmans : 110 185

LISTNUM 1 \l 12692 Bouddhistes : 37 840

LISTNUM 1 \l 12693 Hindous : 24 075

LISTNUM 1 \l 12694 Sikhs : 7 930

LISTNUM 1 \l 12695 Religions orientales : 2 300

LISTNUM 1 \l 12696 Autres religions : 2 250

LISTNUM 1 \l 12697 REV. LUTES: Approximately 600,000, 20 percent of the city is not being served by a religious station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12698 M. ADAMS : Montréal a besoin de cette licence afin de conserver la cadence. D'autres parties du Canada sont bien desservies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12699 REV. LUTES: Inspiration Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12700 M. ADAMS : Solution proposée.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12701 Meilleure utilisation de la fréquence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12702 Ceci permettra aux minorités de s'intégrer à la vie montréalaise. Ceci permettrait d'étaler le talent québécois en matière de musique religieuse et son développement ultérieur.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12703 Bien équipé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12704 Harvesters est bien préparé pour inspirer davantage l'industrie d'enregistrement de musique religieuse du Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12705 REV. LUTES: Canadian programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12706 A broadcast agreement form is signed by all who provide programming to ensure it meets the broadcast standards as set out by the CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12707 M. ADAMS : C'est une programmation financée au Canada. Tous les revenus de la programmation restent au Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12708 REV. LUTES: Other religions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12709 Inspiration 106.3 has documented invitations to Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims for participation. Time will be shared with various religions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12710 Canadian Talent Development.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12711 Harvesters has a proven track record: Gospelfest concerts, the Oasis Music Club, ECMAs, the Junos, the Maritime Gospel Artists Association, and financial support for emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12712 The organizational chart.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12713 We have myself, the president, and the board of directors from different parts of the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12714 The Interreligious Advisory Committee will be made up of clerics, different religious leaders representing their various denominations, religions in Montreal. This will represent the broad spectrum of the religious community of Montreal and it will read a response from the city to the proposed radio station, and hence, as the arrow points, back to the board of directors, advise the board.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12715 The board then in turn will, as we look to the right‑hand side, direct the Montreal Radio Committee, of which Rob is the chairman, and they will be responsible for the direct day‑to‑day operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12716 Then, of course, the Radio Committee, with Rob as the chairman of the board and the station manager, will then in turn give direction to the staff at the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12717 And Harvesters board of directors and president will have a direct impact as well on the staff at the station and listening to the station and so forth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12718 And of course, the staff is responsible for the day‑to‑day operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12719 Our team is multicultural, bilingual, reflecting the Quebec recording industry and business sector with decades of experience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12720 M. ADAMS : Programmation locale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12721 Le Forum : Nouvelles et vues de Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12722 Le Foyer : Interviews avec représentants des communautés.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12723 Le Babillard montréalais : Événements locaux et annonces de concerts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12724 Québec à Cour : Artistes musicaux du Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12725 Rhythm Gospel : Musique Gospel contemporaine et traditionnelle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12726 REV. LUTES: Quebec‑based religious programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12727 M. ADAMS : Chants d'inspiration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12728 Connexion Vie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12729 Paroles de Vie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12730 Radio Espoir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12731 La Voix de l'Évangile.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12732 Grâce victorieuse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12733 Faculté Mission Radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12734 L'Heure Nouvelle Vie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12735 Un Temps d'Espoir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12736 Ligne directe.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12737 La Foi vivante.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12738 Nouveaux Débuts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12739 Objectif Famille.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12740 Et si c'est vrai.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12741 Et RAFA

LISTNUM 1 \l 12742 REV. LUTES: Inspiration Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12743 Benefits.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12744 M. ADAMS : 106.3 inspirera Montréal. Elle reflétera la diversité culturelle de cette ville de classe mondiale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12745 Bénéfices socioéconomiques et en matière de sécurité.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12746 Une telle station favorise la baisse de la criminalité, l'amélioration de la vie familiale et de l'économie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12747 REV. LUTES: Inspiration 106.3 will strengthen families with parenting tips, children's programs and marriage enrichment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12748 M. ADAMS : Inspiration 106.3 promulgue le bien‑être des femmes et des enfants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12749 REV. LUTES: It defends the equality of all people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12750 Inspiration 106.3 helps new Canadians feel welcome, helps them learn the official languages, helps them make the transition to life in Montreal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12751 Inspiration 106.3 will help provide a diversity of voices for Montreal. There are multiple stations giving the same formats, yet, no one is providing inspirational gospel music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12752 Inspiration 106.3 will reflect the cultural diversity of Montreal. It will play a role in helping new Canadians gain a sense of belonging.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12753 M. ADAMS : Vaste gamme.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12754 Cette station a une grande pertinence sur le marché montréalais, parce qu'elle fournit une vaste gamme de services, à savoir :

LISTNUM 1 \l 12755 ‑ aviser les communautés ethniques des différents services religieux offerts;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12756 ‑ information concernant des opportunités d'emploi, des rencontres sociales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12757 Citons, entre autres, le Babillard hindou et le Babillard chinois. D'autres groupes seront également invités à faire connaître leurs activités. Cela sera offert gratuitement et engendrera une cohésion accrue dans la mosaïque culturelle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12758 Il y a une forte demande pour cette licence, tel que démontré par une inspiration à une programmation qui n'est pas comblée par les stations actuelles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12759 REV. LUTES: New Canadians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12760 About 50 percent of the Asian community who came to Canada during the 1990s regularly attend religious services according to the federal government statistics agency.

"Immigrants remain faithful to their religion and even increase their devotion because it eases their transition to Canada, offers them comfort and provides a support group"

LISTNUM 1 \l 12761 ‑‑ Statistics Canada researcher George Morey(ph) said.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12762 Noting that Canada's large cities are among the most multicultural in the world, Morey said:

"Immigrants, most of them Asian, make up 18 percent of Montrealers. Asian immigrants, whether they are from Korea or India, typically remain loyal to the religion of their parents."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12763 M. ADAMS : Inspiration 106.3 diffusera dans les deux langues officielles du Canada. Les différentes communautés culturelles y trouveront un lien commun.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12764 Québec possède une industrie d'enregistrement de disque effervescente. Cette licence peut être bénéfique à d'autres parties du monde.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12765 Inspiration 106.3 mettra en vedette les artistes québécois.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12766 Des stations de classe A sont une façon efficace de supporter de façon pratique la relève artistique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12767 REV. LUTES: Emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12768 We strongly encourage emerging artists in tangible ways. There are superb Quebec artists who need Inspiration 106.3 for the promotion of their music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12769 Autonomy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12770 An autonomous station by Montrealers for Montreal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12771 Inspiration Montreal: The conclusion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12772 Montreal Inspiration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12773 Music to inspire Montreal to even greater heights.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12774 M. ADAMS : Inspiration 106.3 est synonyme d'inspiration musicale fraîche, familiale et amicale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12775 Inspiration pour Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12776 Aux noms des familles montréalaises, les néo‑Canadiens, les artistes du Québec et tous ceux qui désirent une musique pro‑famille et amicale, nous demandons que cette licence soit accordée afin que les besoins d'un segment important de la population montréalaise soient comblés.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12777 Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12778 REV. LUTES : Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12779 THE CHAIRPERSON: This ends your oral introduction, presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12780 Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12781 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you and I will be asking questions in English.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12782 M. ADAMS : Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12783 REV. LUTES: Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12784 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And, Reverend Lutes, if I do not call you Reverend, please excuse me, I am used to talking to misters in these hearings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12785 REV. LUTES: It is, yes, that is fine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12786 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And I will direct my questions to you and then you can address them to your panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12787 I am going to start with your programming and we are going to go into local, news, spoken word programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12788 You initially said you were going to have 30 hours of local programming and now 60 hours a week. Where are they going to be produced?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12789 REV. LUTES: In encouraging the local religious communities, the Buddhist community, the Hindu community, to actually come into our station so that if there are members of their community who do not have the resources, they can utilize our facilities but we would like to show them with the emergent technologies that it is relatively straightforward for them to produce a month's worth of programs so that we can bring them in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12790 And recognizing the cultural diversity, we want to expand to ensure that in the evenings there is some good listening time for the other religious communities in addition to the Christian community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12791 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So am I hearing you that the 60 hours a week of local programming would be produced in Montreal?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12792 REV. LUTES: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12793 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. And you referred to some names of programs. Have you actually set them up and have you got hosts and things like that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12794 REV. LUTES: They are already in existence, which is proof positive that we need this for Montreal so that they are not looking south of the border. Two of them are on our station in Moncton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12795 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. I am looking at page 39 of your presentation today. So these are all produced right now in Quebec?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12796 REV. LUTES: Surprisingly, the Champlain New York station is aiming its antenna to specifically reach the Montreal market. Two hours in the afternoon is seulement en français, and we really feel that Canadians must have their own religious radio station. They shouldn't have to be going to New York.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12797 I think that if it is produced by Quebecers, it should stay in Quebec. It can remain in Quebec on their own radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12798 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So where are ‑‑ you say some of these are on your ‑‑ I am assuming your Moncton ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12799 REV. LUTES: Yes, just two of them are, ma'am.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12800 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. And where are the rest of them airing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12801 REV. LUTES: Primarily in ‑‑ this is an amazingly phenomenal station. You can literally drive three hours in your automobile listening to this AM station but it finishes at 8:00 roughly in the evening and so many Montrealers are disappointed. It is like well, what happens after 8:00?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12802 The other thing, when you are downtown around Montreal, it is fuzzy because of some of the buildings. Montrealers are not happy with the service that they are receiving out of New York: (a) it is AM, they need a high fidelity FM station; and if this is proof positive that there is a healthy recording Christian industry in Quebec, with Luc Gingras as a prime example, and also specifically pertaining to these French spoken word programs that are very strong and very vital in Quebec, they need their station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12803 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So are there like brokered programs?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12804 REV. LUTES: They represent themselves ‑‑ they are local ministers in Montreal. There is ‑‑ l'Église Nouvelle Vie in Montreal is one of the largest in Canada, with over 2,000 people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12805 In Moncton we have three of the fastest and largest churches in Atlantic Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12806 I think that these religious stations that the CRTC is licensing is helping to bring a new vitality. CMC Canada has a superb method of delivery.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12807 When I got started eight years ago, it was rather difficult to keep current with the music but we can have generally 80 percent of the top songs so that when a secular listener listens in ‑‑ this is primarily for the religious listener ‑‑ they are not going to say, oh, that's those Christians doing something second‑rate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12808 We have superb facilities, tremendous artists right here in Quebec, an excellent method of delivery. We are part of a network of over 100 people in Canada and we are part of this group of 40 stations in Canada, that synergy. There is a well organized magazine that comes out monthly so that ‑‑ yes, I am sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12809 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Can we stick to my question?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12810 REV. LUTES: Yes, certainly, I am sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12811 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So the question was: Are these programs at page 39, are they brokered?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12812 REV. LUTES: Brokered meaning that they will ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12813 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Buy the time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12814 REV. LUTES: Buy the time, yes. Straight answer, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12815 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. But would you be essentially reproducing the same ‑‑ it would just be an FM signal that you would be brokering from these people, they would be buying time on your station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12816 REV. LUTES: They will provide for us in MP3 format these programs ‑‑ Rob would like to answer this question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12817 MR. ADAMS: Well part of our vision really is to repatriate Canadian listeners. We find it regrettable that Montrealers who want to hear Christian programming have to look to a U.S. station and so an important part of our project is to bring those listeners back to Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12818 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you would use the same programming that the New York station is using, is that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12819 MR. ADAMS: Not necessarily.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12820 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12821 REV. LUTES: It is in French already being heard on an English station, so we don't have to reproduce it, it is all ready for air in fine quality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12822 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mm‑hmm. So back to local programming. Would you agree to a COL that there would be 60 hours of programming per week produced in Montreal?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12823 REV. LUTES: Most definitely. That is an easily accessed goal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12824 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. And then you talk about five hours of news. When would news be provided during the day?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12825 REV. LUTES: On the top of each hour and the first hour would be the French broadcast, the second corresponding hour would be the English news, then back to French and so forth throughout the day from 6:00 a.m. in the morning till 6:00 p.m. in the evening.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12826 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. And how much of the news is local?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12827 REV. LUTES: One‑third is local, one third is Quebec/Canadian, then the other third is international.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12828 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And how much the newscast, how long would it be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12829 REV. LUTES: They are two‑minute sections, ma'am.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12830 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. And weather, sports?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12831 REV. LUTES: Yes, and a business report as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12832 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. So one minute to news and the rest to ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12833 REV. LUTES: No, two minutes for news and then the one‑minute weather report on the top of the hour. On the halves we have a sports report and a business report and the one‑minute weather report and then it keeps cycling throughout the broadcast clock.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12834 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. And what number of staff are you anticipating in your newsroom?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12835 REV. LUTES: We have already talked with le Tour de la Bourse, refreshed things since our initial approach, and I was quite surprised to see that the cost per square foot to rent here in Montreal is quite reasonable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12836 And in light of the lease that we are working out with them, we feel very confident that even if we didn't sell any commercials that we would still be showing a very sizeable profit. I think that we could easily give salary to four people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12837 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I'm talking news‑gatherers, new journalists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12838 REVEREND LUTES: We will be working with Wise Broadcasting that is across Canada and then we will have one of the staff members getting the local news as it pertains specifically to Montréal and Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12839 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. So we have the five‑hour news. What other spoken word is there in addition?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12840 REVEREND LUTES: There are these Québec‑based programming. There are some English program such as "Through the Bible" that have the French translation that will be airing. Then the others will be English 28 minute programs. Aerial Ministries out of Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12841 One of the things, thanks in large measure to the CRTC strengthening the religious community, organizations such as ourselves are now able to come back some years later and to report to you. We asked you to give us the tools, and you have done that, and as a result we have first‑hand involvement with the People's Church, with their "Living Truth" program that is now beginning to air. We are supporting Aerial Ministries, a local congregation in Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12842 I have been taking courses with the Pastor of the flagship church for the United Church of Canada. The Timothy Eaton Memorial United Church have just approved to purchase airtime in Halifax.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12843 So because you are giving us the tools we are becoming less and less dependent upon American broadcasting. Years ago when I first appeared before you, I had to say that a lot of these programs, yes, they are coming from the United States, but because you keep helping us we are able to meet with people like Dr. Andrew Stirling and say we need, in addition to the Brian Stillers, new emerging leaders and we are able to give them that platform so that we have a Canadian entity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12844 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So in addition to the five hours of news, how much additional spoken word will there be in your broadcast week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12845 REVEREND LUTES: Yes. I did the math because ‑‑ the program Schedule 15. We have 98 hours per week. Given that you have a 126‑hour broadcast week, 98 hours is music and 28 hours per week you spoken word programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12846 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. So if there is five hours of news ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12847 REVEREND LUTES: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12848 COMMISSIONER CRAM: ‑‑ and there is other spoken word ‑‑ I'm sorry, I didn't do the math ‑‑ is how much, 23?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12849 REVEREND LUTES: Roughly, yes, with these programs that we want to be Montréal religious community programs, like from the Hindu community, Buddhist meditations, and so forth, for a half an hour in the evening on Friday night.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12850 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So how many hours of spoken word is there in addition to the five hours of news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12851 REVEREND LUTES: There is 23 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12852 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Of that 23 hours, how much of it is local per week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12853 REVEREND LUTES: Half and half at this point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12854 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So 12‑1/2?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12855 REVEREND LUTES: Yes, roughly. As you can tell, that was off the top of my head. I haven't done the math on that, but we could.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12856 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. Of that amount, how much of the 12.5 how much is "en français"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12857 REVEREND LUTES: Again, it is half. Ideally, I would like to have it mostly in French. However, my friend is reminding me there is a strong English community, obviously, in Montréal as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12858 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. So of the amount that is not local ‑‑ and that is the other 12‑1/2 hours ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12859 REVEREND LUTES: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12860 COMMISSIONER CRAM: ‑‑ how much of it is Canadian?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12861 REVEREND LUTES: Well, the Timothy Eaton Memorial will be Canadian. We have "Words from the Heart" that is Canadian. Here we are right here. Aerial Ministries is Canadian, "La Voix de l'Évangile", "La foi vivifiante", "Prophecy for Today", "The People's Gospel Hour". These are all Canadian broadcast, spoken word programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12862 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I am trying to figure out what I am going to listen to. So of the 12‑1/2 hours that are not locally produced, how much of that will be Canadian?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12863 REVEREND LUTES: "In Touch" is an American program with Dr. Charles Stanley ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12864 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Please don't give me descriptions of the programs. The question is: Of the 12‑1/2 hours that is not local, how much is Canadian?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12865 REVEREND LUTES: All right. Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12866 Two, four ‑‑ there is three hours that is not Canadian in a day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12867 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. So about 4‑1/2 hours that is Canadian?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12868 REVEREND LUTES: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12869 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12870 Your balance programming, you were talking about having, was at four hours a week, and that was the block between 7:00 and 8:00, I think it is Monday to Thursday?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12871 REVEREND LUTES: Yes, with programs whereby we give the tools, so to speak, to the Hindu community or the Muslim community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12872 In Halifax we are encouraging that and we have the local committee there, and so forth. These communities need to see that it is not an ominous task and we want to give them the instruction and the tools.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12873 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you would agree to a COL of having a minimum of four hours a week balance programming by other faiths?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12874 REVEREND LUTES: That sounds very reasonable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12875 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It seems to me that your noon hour program ‑‑ was it "Fireside Chat" or something?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12876 REVEREND LUTES: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12877 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Was also going to essentially be balance programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12878 REVEREND LUTES: Yes. We have changed it to "Le foyer" because we didn't want it to sound like an American program. It will be in French. It is an interview format, prerecorded of course, whereby we have representatives from various charities, different religious clerics and so forth, where we come in ‑‑ I have done this for three years in Moncton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12879 I have many, many interviews that I have saved and it was perhaps the most popular show on CITA over any American programming, and so on and so forth, because people were hearing leaders from their own community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12880 So we will be encouraging ‑‑ well, we will insist on the staff in Montréal having their own Montréal "Le foyer" program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12881 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You said in your talk today that you had "invited" other faiths ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12882 REVEREND LUTES: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12883 COMMISSIONER CRAM: ‑‑ "a documented invitation to Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims".

LISTNUM 1 \l 12884 REVEREND LUTES: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12885 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Have you gotten any RSVPs?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12886 REVEREND LUTES: Yes, I have. I have made a mailing list of them. I have it right here in front of me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12887 If the Commission would like, we have what we have labelled "List of Supporting Documents" and there are 18 different things. One of them here is the response from the Buddhist community, the Hindu, the Islamic, and so forth, with contact information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12888 So we have not tried to hype this up amongst the religious community where it is obviously very difficult to have a licence of this nature approved. We want to wait until we actually had the licence. At such time then we will say: "There, finally, now we have this tool that we are making available to you so we are ready to go into action so to speak."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12889 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I think it is in your application under "Local Programming" ‑‑ you didn't paginate, but if you could get to your application under "Local Programming", and the third page of it ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12890 REVEREND LUTES: In the actual application that was submitted?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12891 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. It is before the "Supplementary Brief", yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12892 REVEREND LUTES: Yes, okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12893 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Three pages before the end.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12894 REVEREND LUTES: All right. I have them numbered.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12895 COMMISSIONER CRAM: This is probably just my own curiosity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12896 REVEREND LUTES: All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12897 COMMISSIONER CRAM: In the third paragraph there you say that the Buddhists will be part of the mosaic. The Chan Hai Lei Zang Centre is located there. Then you have "Chinese folk religion is another part."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12898 REVEREND LUTES: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12899 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What is "Chinese folk religion"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12900 REVEREND LUTES: Other than typically Buddhist and recognizing the sizable Chinese Oriental community, wanting to make that available to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12901 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What is "Chinese folk religion"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12902 REVEREND LUTES: Well, in China we think that all Chinese are alike, or perhaps people like myself, but the Rev. Jim Chang of the Toronto People's Church was explaining to me there is much, much more, Jeff, then Mandarin and Cantonese. You have to understand that there are so many other different folk religions and language groups, and so forth. With the present government they have enforced the present language and it is not quite as homogeneous as what one might think.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12903 So he gave me quite a long explanation on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12904 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12905 Your CCD, moving right along.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12906 REVEREND LUTES: All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12907 COMMISSIONER CRAM: In the letter you send us on the 19th of April you said: "A First Nations radio station" ‑‑ you would be giving money to a First Nations radio station ‑‑ "to be used in the training of a First Nations future broadcaster."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12908 Do you have any more particulars on that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12909 REVEREND LUTES: Yes. That is where I got my start in radio, at Big Cove in New Brunswick. We have remained wonderful friends ever since; Melvin Augustine. He by times has a school for young native men and women. It is wonderful to go there and to see the enthusiasm. Melvin has wanted to have a school like that in Moncton for off reserve native young people, and I want to give him the finances and the resources so that we see the strengthening of Aboriginal Voices Radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12910 We understand that one of the problems ‑‑ if I could just go a step further ‑‑ Aboriginal Voices Radio, we will be allowing them to collocate with us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12911 They have said they don't have the finances at this point and we feel that with these religious spoken word programs, we feel very confident that we will be able to cover the cost for the rental on the facility at Tour de la Bourse also. So we want to remember where our roots are with native radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12912 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. So do I understand that this money is then going to be dedicated to a particular individual or a particular Band?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12913 REVEREND LUTES: He and his son and wife, and so forth, they own the CFTI and he has his organization there. It will go to him to help strengthen him in his vision of training up the future leaders of the native community of tomorrow, particularly as it pertains to broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12914 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So CFTI is the call letters?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12915 REVEREND LUTES: Yes, in Big Cove, New Brunswick, near Rexton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12916 COMMISSIONER CRAM: How would you ensure that it would be used for training of a First Nations future broadcaster?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12917 REVEREND LUTES: Melvin and I have talked about teaching the school together, actually providing the computer on the desks, and so forth. Now that our organization is growing, it frees me up for travelling in helping, and so force. I enjoy going to Big Cove from time to time and just spending time with the First Nations people there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12918 So I will be there first hand to see that the money that has been allocated is actually being used by his radio broadcast organization to help these young people and encourage them in their development of education.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12919 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So it is not like for a seminar or anything, or it is not a bursary?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12920 REVEREND LUTES: I was very impressed to see Melvin having four or five of these young people coming in each evening. They were picking their own music, and so forth. We had to curtail them ‑‑ or Melvin did ‑‑ so that they weren't asking for girlfriends over the air, but nonetheless, with proper supervision and so forth there was some very serious training there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12921 Sometimes there is discouragement that sets in and we want to be there, not just in a financial way but encouraging them right along and helping provide the resources and even some teaching and setting a role model.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12922 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Did I misquote you? Did your letter of April 19th refer to a Québec First Nations radio station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12923 REVEREND LUTES: No, ma'am.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12924 COMMISSIONER CRAM: No? All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12925 I have to say I am having a hard time figuring out how we can assure ‑‑ what I am essentially hearing from you, and you have to disabuse me of this, is that the money is going to go to this licensee and you trust him that it will go for training of somebody. Normally we can't do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12926 REVEREND LUTES: We would accept as a COL that there be a representative of International Harvesters there to ensure that the money is not misappropriated, that it is used for a three‑month school for these young people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12927 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12928 REVEREND LUTES: All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12929 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Are you planning any synergies? I'm sure you are planning admin synergies with Moncton and Halifax, back office programming synergies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12930 REVEREND LUTES: The synergy, it is so delightful one of the things that is making my life easier, not to get too, too personal, is that we have a DJ in St. John's, Newfoundland, who prepares a morning drive program and we have another DJ who is a teacher in broadcast schools. He has 30 years of experience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12931 We don't want to bring in too much of this from outside because we want Québec based French programming. These people of course are speaking English, but the synergy would be in some of the spoken word programming and some DJ work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12932 So the beautiful thing is that people in other parts of the country can find employment without having to move from their place of birth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12933 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So what programming synergies are you anticipating?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12934 REVEREND LUTES: Some afternoon voicetracking and some programming such as the Timothy Eaton Memorial United Church. Well, Aerial Ministries is Montréal. But the synergy in terms of Bob Beasley's "Words from the Heart" where he is kind of like using the Canadian Encyclopedia and having a little fact of the day and bringing in some Canadian information and making spiritual application for his listeners within a little five‑minute program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12935 COMMISSIONER CRAM: How much of the programming on the Montréal station would be the same as on either your Moncton or your Halifax station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12936 REVEREND LUTES: Very little, because this is an autonomous body that is self‑governing. It is not imposing. We feel they have the resources. Basically we are the facilitators to supplement them where there is resource people, encouraging them as much as possible to have, in essence, its own independent radio station benefiting, if they want, from the synergy from the other radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12937 COMMISSIONER CRAM: How much is "very little"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12938 REVEREND LUTES: I would like to see 75 percent. I think most definitely 75 percent is "seulement" solely from Québec and for Montréal. The other 25 percent some of these outside programs, only to lighten the load on their staff, and so forth, and to give them that professional sound, sound that will be acceptable to secular listeners should they happen to hit "Seek" on their radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12939 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So 25 percent is minimal?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12940 REVEREND LUTES: We feel that we need that because instead of a lot of little independent radio stations, the benefit of them being in a forum with one another is what helps to give that full professional sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12941 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I wanted to talk to you fairly seriously about ‑‑ I notice in one of your letters dated November 6th you talk about:

"This application for a religious FM licence arises from the grassroots of the Montréal religious community."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12942 I don't see them sitting here with you today and I ask myself why they don't apply.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12943 REVEREND LUTES: Well, our thought is that with Luc Gingras, who is well‑known throughout Canada and Joe Cass, who is a well‑established businessman and our thought ‑‑ perhaps I will allow you to answer that question, you being a Montréaler.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12944 MR. ADAMS: Well, I think the best way to answer that question is that when you approach a Christian in Montréal with a project for a radio station most of the times their immediate response would be "it will never happen". They immediately will say "we have WCHP in Champlain, New York. There is not enough of a market here", or whatever.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12945 They will have a response that is very lacking in hope, I think probably due to some failures to obtain licensing in the past. They have come to a point where it is very difficult to get them on board.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12946 But I believe that once the licence is granted, they will definitely respond and would obviously prefer to have local programming, a local station that they can tune into. So this is really the response to that. There are many, many Christians in Montréal and they just don't have ‑‑ they just don't have the network when it comes to radio. They are looking to an alternative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12947 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I guess now that it's even a phrase used in Newfoundland, the term "maîtres chez nous" comes to my mind, especially in regards to Québec, who first used it, but now Newfoundland uses it. So I was just curious as to given that there is this groundswell or the grassroots, you just think that they don't think it can be done. Is that it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12948 MR. ADAMS: Also, there is the fear of competition. For instance, the applicant for the AM station, among Christians in Montréal there is a fear that if we have two stations that competition is somehow unhealthy, whereas our view is the more the merrier, especially if you have one on AM and one on FM. It is really not an issue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12949 But in the minds of many of these people, they need to be, in a sense, encouraged that the stations that broadcast in other cities ‑‑ they go to other cities and they hear Christian stations and then somehow in Montréal there is nothing, particularly for the English‑speaking listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12950 For instance, Radio Ville‑Marie, I think some people were heartened by the arrival by Radio Ville‑Marie, but I don't think it really reflects a typical evangelical Christian radio station as we know it. So that was a little bit of a disappointment, I think, for some people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12951 So there is still this need that needs to be filled for a specifically Christian radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12952 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. I want to go into control.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12953 As you know, there have been some concerns raised as to your control over the organization.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12954 REVEREND LUTES: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12955 COMMISSIONER CRAM: As I see it, Mr. Lutes, you have a lifetime appointment, you cannot be replaced, and you have a 51 percent vote on the board.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12956 Just to take it down to a very simple level, right now I am sure you have your marbles, as my mother would say, but if you lost your marbles and you decided to buy a yacht in the name of International Harvesters, I don't think anybody could do anything about it, could they?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12957 REVEREND LUTES: Well, the way I operate, each year's Chairman, who sometimes remains on for two years, I call him my boss. The Chairman, it is like you have the CEO and then the Chairman of the Board. It is a leadership of equals.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12958 The reason why we have entrenched things like this is to ensure the CRTC, should they grant this licence, that five years from now there is not some rogue Board; that there is somebody that they know ‑‑ there will be volunteer Directors who come and go, but we need to have that continuity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12959 But it is very much reporting to the Board of Directors, and it is wise to allow them to challenge things, and so forth, because when we walk away from the boardroom table we have a stronger ministry than ever because of many people giving their input.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12960 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. You have protected us from a rogue Board, but you haven't protected us from a rogue President.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12961 REVEREND LUTES: I am ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12962 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And if you lose your marbles and decide to buy a yacht, they can't fire you, they can't change your decision. I know you like to talk about conciliatory nice stuff, but I am a lawyer and so I look at the documents. And if you bought a yacht, nobody could do anything about it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12963 REVEREND LUTES: We are a member of the Canadian Council of Christian Charities. We report to Revenue Canada Charities Division and such irresponsible actions would be reported to Charities Division. We could no longer hold membership with the Canadian Council of Christian Charities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12964 In associating with them we find out how to properly operate a charitable organization. So it is a charity that has that security that owns the property and the licence, not one individual.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12965 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So there are external controls, but on the Board there are no controls against you buying a yacht.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12966 REVEREND LUTES: Yes. I can't spend anything over $500 without it being approved by the Chairman and the Board of Directors. These things have to be brought up in the quarterly business meetings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12967 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But again, at the Board of Directors you have a 51 percent vote. So if you chose to buy a yacht, nobody could stop you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12968 REVEREND LUTES: And that would be the last yacht that I would ever buy, because I would lose my charitable licence because ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12969 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And you have lost your marbles also, so it's not a big deal.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12970 REVEREND LUTES: That would be the end of International Harvesters. It would have lost the confidence of the public. We would have our charitable licence taken from us and the Board would have nothing to do with that kind of a character.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12971 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But again, they couldn't do anything about it, because you are still in a lifetime appointment and 51 percent of the vote.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12972 REVEREND LUTES: Lifetime ‑‑ I'm not trying to be a smart alec here ‑‑ lifetime appointment of what? You could be like a locomotive going down the track and look behind you in see, hey, you broke the coupling. You haven't listened to your leaders and the cars are way behind you. So you can go full steam ahead, but you are not a leader if nobody is following you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12973 I have to have the confidence of these people, meeting with them on a regular basis and listening to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12974 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. Please don't think that I thought you have lost your marbles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12975 REVEREND LUTES: No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12976 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I was just speaking hypothetically.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12977 REVEREND LUTES: Certainly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12978 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Economics. You are projecting an audience share of 1.5 percent. How did you come up with that number?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12979 REVEREND LUTES: Typically, these religious radio stations, none of them are getting above the 2 percent mark. We feel it is a realizable goal anticipating that yes, we would wedge into the market and people would increase their listening time to include C106.3, thus giving us a 1.5 percent part of the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12980 So even the highly successful stations of CHRI and the Barrie station under Scott Jackson, they are not muscling out CHUM or anything like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12981 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What is their share? What is the Barrie station's share?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12982 REVEREND LUTES: I can't answer that, but I will get you that answer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12983 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. This audience share projection wasn't based on your performance in Moncton or Halifax?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12984 REVEREND LUTES: Yes, it is in part, but it is the precedent that is across‑the‑board as we correlate with fellow broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12985 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. You say there will be little impact on CIRA‑FM and soon to be Radio Shalom, and that is because...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12986 REVEREND LUTES: It is because we are broadcasting in both official languages. Since Radio Shalom has been approved, we have pulled back in the area of feeling, yes, the Jewish community would be welcome here by virtue of the fact that it is a religious, not a Christian licence, but we don't want to potentially be in competition to Radio Shalom and we want to peacefully coexist with other radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12987 Should our friends be approved, we would try to correlate with them. If they say "Oh, well, we want this program", "Certainly, help yourself."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12988 MR. ADAMS: We don't pose a threat to Radio Ville‑Marie for the reason that it is a completely different format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12989 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12990 You are projecting a steep revenue growth, 53 percent over the years, but your sales costs are only going up 11 percent. What are you doing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12991 REVEREND LUTES: We are more interested in ministering comfort to people, assurance for families and ministering hope to people. We want a commercial licence because when you have a non‑commercial licence and you have the business community making donations, I am always concerned that when we thank them on the air it might potentially begin to get a little bit too much like a commercial.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12992 So we operate with donations as a charity, but to make sure that we have the leeway we have asked for a commercial licence. But we are not hungry for advertising dollars. We don't really need them because these brokered programs provide us with a steady income. So our focus is on making sure that these brokered programs are on the air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12993 We are not commercially minded, being a charity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12994 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I wanted to get into the donations because you are at I think about 100 and you are going to go up to about 165. Throughout you talk about them being unsolicited, free will offerings and yet there is talk about a fund‑raising campaign.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12995 What does that fund‑raising campaign do? Do you use the radio waves at all?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12996 REVEREND LUTES: We do in order to announce different events that are going on. We find that one of the ways that people express their appreciation for the programming, knowing that it doesn't just come on automatically, is that they offer to make contributions. We never have to stress money. We would never, because we never have to, say "we are going off the air if you don't give", or anything like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12997 People give because they are joyful and because the appreciate what they hear, and they feel that they are being listened to and they feel that they have received the product that they have been asking for for decades.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12998 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Could I understand ‑‑ and I am looking at your Constitution.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12999 REVEREND LUTES: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13000 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I am looking at the updated January 2003.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13001 REVEREND LUTES: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13002 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I'm looking at Article 4 under "Finances".

LISTNUM 1 \l 13003 REVEREND LUTES: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13004 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Do I understand it, then, that if you get any money on air and you thank people on air, you don't give them a charitable receipt?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13005 REVEREND LUTES: Exactly. We are speaking, of course, of like an insurance company or a restaurant or whatever. I say to them, I say "Well, I can't give you a charitable donation receipt." Well, it doesn't matter to them because they treat it like advertising. They are making a contribution from their business, which is treated differently than a private donation from a specific individual like somebody who is making a contribution of $100 for the year. Then this way they receive a charitable receipt that is beneficial at income tax time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13006 COMMISSIONER CRAM: In other words, businesses can put it off to ad and promo and people can't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13007 REVEREND LUTES: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13008 COMMISSIONER CRAM: That money then isn't subject to the Revenue Canada charitable rules that you have to pay out 80 percent, that sort of thing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13009 REVEREND LUTES: All of it is. We operate completely and with the assistance of the Canadian Council of Christian Charities to make sure that we are obviously within the confines of what is set out by Charities Division Revenue Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13010 So the answer to that is yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13011 We can't make a profit from this. 80 percent has to be disbursed before the year is out for the charitable objectives of the organization.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13012 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. You said in writing that you are a member of the Canadian Council of Christian Charities and of course they have guidelines on ethical fund raising.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13013 REVEREND LUTES: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13014 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Would you agree to a condition of licence that you would remain a member in good standing of the Canadian Council of Christian Charities?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13015 REVEREND LUTES: Most definitely. We follow anything that they pick up on and follow it through. With your membership, they are just a phone call away for any questions to make sure we are within the confines.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13016 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13017 Thank you, Mr. Lutes, panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13018 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Lutes, you talk about an AM radio station based in Champlain, New York. Do you have an idea of their market share in the Montréal market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13019 REVEREND LUTES: Do you know that answer?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13020 I'm sorry, sir, we could get that information. He has contact with the Champlain Radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13021 MR. ADAMS: Yes. The station manager is a good friend of mine. I could easily get that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13022 THE CHAIRPERSON: By the same token, can you ask them how many Francophones they are reaching?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13023 MR. ADAMS: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13024 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because usually the American stations seem to reach the West Island but not necessarily where the Francophone population is living. Obviously they are also reaching Valleyfield and Vaudreuil‑Dorion, which are bit more Francophone than in the West Island in terms of proportion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13025 Mr. Adams, when Commissioner Cram ask you about Radio Ville‑Marie you quickly answered saying that you were not competing against Radio Ville‑Marie because you were to be broadcasting a different format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13026 Could you elaborate on the differences between the two services?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13027 MR. ADAMS: Yes. I think principally Radio Ville‑Marie, being licensed with a religious licence, operates pretty much as a regular radio station with a format of easy listening and some talk. What we are planning to do is to broadcast music that is evangelical Christian music from the top 40 Christian charts. This is not something that Radio Ville‑Marie is currently doing, unless they have recently changed their format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13028 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is for music, but they also have talk programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13029 MR. ADAMS: Yes. Also, as far as talk goes, Radio Ville‑Marie is principally a Catholic station, whereas the background from which Mr. Lutes and myself come is Protestant. So the evangelical and Protestant stream of Christianity has a very different perspective, very different lexicon, very different ways of addressing issues, has a very different administrative and political structure, has very different views on marriage, et cetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13030 So I think the ideas that are being promoted from Radio Ville‑Marie are not really the same ideas once you get into specifics, in the same way that a Catholic person is not going to go to a Protestant church on Sunday and a Protestant person is not likely to go to a Catholic church.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13031 So it is really two different markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13032 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13033 Mr. Moltner, unless you have different answers to what you gave when you appeared with the previous group, I may skip all the questions. If you are telling me the answers will be exactly the same, I can surely thank you for being here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13034 MR. MOLTNER: Well, fortunately in my business, the laws of physics don't change very rapidly, so the answers remain the same.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13035 THE CHAIRPERSON: But the applications to change, I hope.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13036 MR. MOLTNER: They sure do, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13037 THE CHAIRPERSON: But it doesn't seem that the engineering community ‑‑ that as an aside. That has nothing to do with the hearing, but looking at AM radio, which is based on technologies developed in the early 1920s, maybe the laws of physics haven't changed but the applications must have to some extent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13038 MR. MOLTNER: This is true.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13039 THE CHAIRPERSON: That they are still broadcasting with technologies put together in the early 1920s. The same for FM, which is only 10 to 15 years later.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13040 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: Just on the subject of your programming, the language of programming is 49 percent French?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13041 MR. ADAMS: 51 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13042 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: 51 percent French. I'm trying to understand what the audience for that 51 percent French programming will be if you consider yourselves to be a religious station but, in essence, a Protestant station. I don't want to get into an argument of whether I'm right about the essence of Protestants, because I think he just said it. So let's not question that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13043 REVEREND LUTES: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13044 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: I appreciate the balance issues and so on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13045 I am just trying to understand what you are trying to do with the 51 percent French broadcasting. I don't know a French Protestant. There may be some Huguenots in North America and Europe but there are very few French‑speaking Protestants around. So what does it mean?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13046 MR. ADAMS: I would love to introduce you to my friends. You know, there are way more French‑speaking Protestants than most people know, as proven by the number of French programs broadcast from WCHP. Just that alone is an indicator that it is not a non‑existent people group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13047 But to answer the question, I think that the 51 percent majority going to French ‑‑ because we are not afraid of the French losing their marbles and taking the majority of the pie away, but maybe we are wanting to reverse the numbers from the referendum that we had a few years back.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13048 I think the nature of this decision is that Canada has two official languages. We are not applying for a multilingual station; we are applying for a station that represents Canada, French and English ‑‑ French primarily because we are located in Québec, in Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13049 But we are also not wanting to deny the fact that there is a significant population of English‑speaking people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13050 We could have applied for a fully French Christian station, but I think that would have ‑‑ I don't think that would have served the English‑speaking Christians in Montréal which are numerous as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13051 I don't know if that fully answers your question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13052 CONSEILLER FRENCH: Ça va, Monsieur le Président.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13053 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Adams, you took an undertaking to get us some answers back from your friends at the Champlain AM radio station. Could we have answer, say, for tomorrow morning?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13054 MR. ADAMS: If he answers his phone, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13055 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13056 MR. ADAMS: I will do my best.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13057 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. You could say it orally when you will appear tomorrow just for the record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13058 REVEREND LUTES: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13059 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, gentlemen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13060 REVEREND LUTES: Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13061 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will take an hour for a break and this afternoon we will hear the three AM applications.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13062 Nous reprendrons à 1 h 05 avec l'étude des trois démandes de radio pour la bande A.M.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1204 / Suspension à 12 h 04

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1307 / Reprise à 13 h 07

LISTNUM 1 \l 13063 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13064 Madame la Secrétaire?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13065 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13066 We will now proceed with an application by S.S. TV Inc. for a licence to operate an AM commercial, ethnic radio programming undertaking in Montréal. The new station would operate on frequency 1,410 kHz, Class B, with a transmitter power of 10,000 watts day‑time and night‑time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13067 Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Ravinder Singh Pannu, who will introduce his colleagues. You will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13068 Mr. Pannu.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13069 MR. PANNU: Chairperson and Commissioners, good afternoon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13070 Before I start the presentation I would like to introduce my panel. My name is Ravinder Singh Pannu. I am the President of S.S. TV Inc. The new AM station will be owned and operated by S.S. TV Inc. I have 20 years of experience with television and SCMO Radio and I am the first Canadian among the Punjabis to start a 24‑hour TV and SCMO radio channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13071 Before venturing into the ambitious project of starting a 24‑hour radio and TV program, I anchored Awaze‑Punjab, the first Punjabi program on Citytv from 1986 to 1992. From 1992 to 1995, I produced, directed and anchored a TV program called "Sajri Saaver" on Citytv.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13072 In 1994, I started Sur Sagar Radio, SCMO, the first 24‑hour seven days a week South Asian radio channel catering to the needs of Punjabi, Hindi and Urdu population of Toronto and adjoining areas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13073 In 2001, I got S.S. TV broadcasted on Rogers Cable and in 2005 on Cogeco.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13074 On my left is Mr. Mario Pratola who is our Director of Technical Services, under contract. He has more than 30 years of experience in radio and television design and installation. Mr. Mario Pratola will take up the technical part of our application today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13075 On my right side is Mr. Sanjiv Kumar. He has a Master's Degree in Management and Master's Degree in Economics and has been teaching management and economics in Guru Nanak Dev University in India. Mr. Kumar had the opportunity to make presentation on issues of economics and management before international organizations, including World Trade Organization in Geneva.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13076 Mr. Kumar started his broadcasting career in Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13077 Mr. Kumar is anchoring the TV program "Canada Watch" at S.S. TV and he will be taking care of the marketing and financing part of our application today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13078 Chairperson and Commissioners, S.S. TV Inc. appears before you today seeking approval to establish a new ethnic AM station to serve Montréal centre and adjoining areas. The proposed station will operate at 1,410 kHz on AM band at the effective radius power of 10,000 watt. Approval of S.S. TV's application on frequency 1410 kHz will bring significant diversity and added listener choice to Montréal radio market by providing high quality, locally relevant programming to 13 ethnocultural communities and 12 different languages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13079 The program schedule of S.S. TV reflects the rich culture diversity of each community by giving it a distinctive radio voice and an ongoing presence and a recognition of its contribution to Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13080 For the unserved, it will mean access to regular scheduled dedicated programming in their own heritage language, and for underserved it will add programming diversity and listener choice that will enhance and complement existing services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13081 The major languages to be catered by this new enterprise will be Punjabi, Hindi, Urdu, Gujarati, Armenian, Hungarian, Belgian, Korean, Syrian, Tamil, Bengali and ethnic English.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13082 Our commitment to $190,000 on Canadian talent will greatly benefit Montréal's developing artists in need of financial support. We confirm that if licensed, our station will make a contribution of $125,000. This cheque will be written today if the licence is granted in years one through four, and increasing at $230,000 in years five through seven.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13083 We further confirm that we will contribute 100 percent of the station's annual contribution to either FACTOR and/or MUSICACTION. We accept the above commitment as conditions of licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13084 Over and above the contribution outlined, we will build in our station a recording studio in order to provide a platform to emerging artists to be recorded, as well as it will be an important vehicle at the disposal of various ethnic groups served by station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13085 We will provide emerging singer opportunities and broadcast their music and interviews to promote emerging talent. We will be providing opportunities for the commercial radio audience to hear music by new Canadian artists. It will be 33.3 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13086 We will be providing them free studio facility. We will organize the concerts for them. We will facilitate their participation in various community‑based activities. We will sponsor them to buy instruments.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13087 We accept the above commitments as conditions of licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13088 As you know, the Ethnic Broadcast Policy stipulates that for ethnic radio stations a minimum of 7 percent of musical selection aired each broadcast week during ethnic programming period must be Canadian. We would commit to a minimum 10 percent of musical selection.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13089 Since this percentage surpasses the maximum regulatory requirement of 7 percent, we confirm that we would be prepared to accept this higher commitment by condition of licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13090 S.S. TV Inc.'s ethnic broadcast plan fully meets the spirit and intent of the Broadcasting Act and the Commission's Ethnic Broadcast Policy and represents the most comprehensive, productive and optimum utilization of the 1,410 kilohertz frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13091 Montréal's multiculturalism has transformed into one of the most ethical diversities in the world. Montréal hosts many ethnic communities which are unserved and underserved on the airwaves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13092 The applicant will accept as a condition of licence the obligation to provide air time in their respective languages to these communities. We will be catering to 12 languages and 13 communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13093 Furthermore, we will provide special programming. As Montréal is a predominantly French‑speaking city, immigrants who come from various countries need to integrate themselves into a predominantly French environment. We have planned a special program which helps new immigrants to understand and appreciate French language and the culture, hence developing our broadcast model.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13094 The dominant languages spoken amongst South Asians are Punjabi, Hindi, Urdu, Bengali, Tamil and Gujarati. This is the reason we have taken care of providing exclusive time for our programming in these languages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13095 Spirituality has a very important place in the heart of all communities in general and South Asian communities in particular. To promote religious harmony, to advance good understanding of various major religions, time slots are earmarked for Christianity, Sikhism, Islam and Hindu religious programs, along with the art of living.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13096 Most important, this will be non‑commercial programming. It may lead to some loss in revenue, but it will give respect to the sensitivities of many communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13097 As carrier broadcaster, S.S. TV's insistence over the past two decades on achieving the highest quality programming possible has been our benchmark and the key to our success in producing world‑class multicultural programming in Toronto. We believe through our experience in both ethnic radio and television, the most important need of the third language group is to have access to programming that is directly relevant to the local communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13098 We will provide 92 percent local programming, which will be 116 hours of the programming taken from Sur Sagar Radio will be 10 hours per week, which will include programs called "Bhakhde Masle", "Khoz Nachdi Jawani" and "Sur Sagar Radio".

LISTNUM 1 \l 13099 Please see the schedule of Time table.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13100 We will definitely incorporate spoken word material of direct and particular relevance to the communities served. This will include local news, weather, sports coverage and promotion to local events and activities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13101 Below is a typical Wednesday program line‑up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13102 The ethnic English program will take up community issues of ethnic population. This program will be truly a multicultural program representing multicultural Canada. This program will be broadcast Monday to Friday from 2:00 p.m. to 3:00 p.m.. We will be providing a minimum of 15 hours of cross cultural programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13103 Now I request Mr. Mario Pratola to brief you on the technical part of our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13104 Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13105 MR. PRATOLA: Thank you, Mr. Pannu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13106 Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, S.S. TV's application will utilize the frequency of 1,410 kHz in the most efficient manner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13107 S.S. TV Inc. in this application is proposing a 10 kW day, a 10 kW night undertaking on 1,410 kHz to service Montréal. This operation is to be co‑sited with CJMS 1040 located in Saint‑Constant. CJMS has signed a co‑siting agreement to that effect. This document is on file with the CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13108 Currently the CJMS site is comprised of three in‑line towers. S.S. TV Inc. will require adding a fourth tower in order to obtain the required contours. Both CJMS and S.S. TV Inc. to utilize the same antenna grid, a combiner will have to be installed. S.S. TV Inc. will of course pay for these changes, along with whatever modifications are required.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13109 I will emphasize that there will be no degradation to CJMS, to its signal and/or its contours. Should S.S. TV Inc. be awarded a licence, S.S. TV Inc. will install the most current transmitter, the latest technology available. We will provide redundancy to the system, including backup transmitters, diesel generator power backup.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13110 S.S. TV Inc. is committed to correct all transmission difficulties as related to reception, interference, overloading, et cetera, within the 250 mV per metre contour and provide free consultation outside of this 250 mV per metre contour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13111 Safety Code 6 will be implemented to its fullest capacity. Proper fencing, signage and rear field radiation warnings, et cetera, all that is required to keep the public aware and to limit any liability.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13112 S.S. TV Inc. is prepared to share the cost with CJMS for the existing three towers and to bring them into good state of repair, correcting any structural concerns.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13113 S.S. TV Inc.'s application maximizes the potential of the 1,410 kHz frequency at 10 kW. Therefore, the most efficiencies are realized from the spectrum.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13114 Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13115 MR. PANNU: Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13116 CJMS 1040 kHz AM ownership discovery. This situation was conveniently raised two weeks ago. It appeared that various individuals, one being the consultant of Radio Humsafar contesting ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13117 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Pannu, this is part of the intervention period that will take place at the end of the day today or early tomorrow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13118 MR. PANNU: All right, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13119 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you refrain from referring to that and go to your conclusions so that this part is dealt with at the proper time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13120 MR. PANNU: Yes. I would like to ask Sanjiv Kumar if he would present his...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13121 MR. KUMAR: Thank you, Ravinder.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13122 Good afternoon, Chairperson and Commissioners, fellow applicants in the audience. The Metropolitan Montreal is a vibrant multicultural city with a large immigrant population. South Asians are an important segment among the visible minorities. This highly active community has no visibility on the airwaves of Montreal. There is a huge South Asian community and other ethnic populations with good business and purchasing power.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13123 S.S. TV Inc. has a specialty TV channel and Sur Sagar Radio, SCMO. The ethnic population of Canada belonging to Toronto, Vancouver, Montréal, Edmonton, Calgary, needs a common platform. Our effort to start an AM channel in Montréal is a step in this direction. This will have major revenue and programming synergies and will provide quality broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13124 The new AM station will provide opportunities to mainstream business communities and ethnic business communities of Montréal to broadcast about their products and services among growing ethnic communities and hence will create business jobs and will cater to the educational, informational and entertainment needs of the communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13125 It is important to note that there is no multicultural radio attaching to the South Asian community operating in Montréal centre on AM airwaves. The long‑term revenue projections were developed using that presumption. The general economic forecast seems optimistic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13126 Particularly, there is a bubbling growth of immigrant communities in Montréal and it is expected to continue for the years to come. This would increase the number of listeners as the number of local businesses serving a population. The most important facts, we have discussed with independent producers our proposals about programming in their language, which includes tapes of borrowed time, content of programming and prospective hosts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13127 A final agreement can be done when the CRTC grants the licence. Approximately 50 hours of programming is already secured.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13128 S.S. TV Inc. is going to invest $400,000 as an equity in this project. Brokered programming will be 69 hours and average hourly charge will be approximately $65. Non‑commercial programming will be of 14 hours. Commercial programming by our station will be of 42 hours. Total weekly sports will be approximately 4:30 and one spot will be approximately at a very small nominal rate of $7.00.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13129 For programming we will have one full‑time and three part‑timers. We will have one full‑time marketing person and one part‑time marketing person.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13130 For administration, one station manager, receptionist and bookkeeper and part‑time person for weekends will be employed. We expect around $50,000 to be the rent, telephone and hydro, but this is not included in our expenses because Mr. Pannu proposed that if this licence is granted probably he will buy a property.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13131 Last year Mr. Pannu applied for a Brampton station and he gave a site to the CRTC for the antennas and others, and he purchased that property for $1 million and we have no regrets, though our application was denied. But that is a good property.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13132 So he intends to buy a property in Montréal when he starts the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13133 As far as the financial operations are concerned, we expect from the national sources we will be getting $75,000 in the first year, which will increase to $250,000 in the seventh.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13134 On the local advertising revenue, we expect $100,000 in the first year, which will increase to $275,000 in the seventh year from other, which means brokerage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13135 We expect around $237,000 in the first year, which will reach to about $325,000 in the seventh year. As far as the expenses are concerned, we believe that around $90,000 will be spent on the programming and $25,000 a straight payment to the Canadian development program, on either FACTOR or MUSICACTION.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13136 We expect to spend around $60,000 on the technical in the first year, which will reach to $83,000 in the seventh.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13137 On sales, advertising and promotion, $65,000 in the first and $75,000 in the seventh.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13138 On administration and general expenses, around $125,000 in the first and $295,000 in the seventh, as the operation increases.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13139 Total operating expenses will be to the tune of $365,000. Including other unforeseen and other expenses it will be around $25,000. The total expenses will be $390,000 in the first year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13140 So we find that even in the first year, S.S. TV Inc. is having a positive balance. So there is no negative balance. It comes to the break‑even point with very, very conservative projections for the revenue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13141 Before I complete my presentation, I would like to regret that some typographical mistakes were done in our application because we were working on two applications simultaneously, our Brampton application and Montréal application at the same time. So there was some similar programming. Because of that, certain typographical mistakes were being made in the application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13142 We once again regret and apologize.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13143 Mr. Pannu...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13144 MR. PANNU: Thank you, Sanjiv.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13145 In conclusion, approval of S.S. TV Inc.'s application for 1,410 KHz AM will, among many considerations:

LISTNUM 1 \l 13146 1) extend service to 13 unserved and underserved ethnic communities in 12 languages;

LISTNUM 1 \l 13147 2) introduce a significant new level of programming diversity and added listener choice to Montréal's ethnic radio market;

LISTNUM 1 \l 13148 3) implement Canadian talent development initiatives. That will provide financial support.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13149 4) help narrow the service disparity gap between Montréal's well served English and French speaking radio audience and the far less served third language community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13150 Chairperson and Commissioners, these are but some of the reasons why approval of S.S. TV Inc.'s application will serve the public interest and best ensure the optimum utilization of 1,410 kHz AM frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13151 On behalf of S.S. TV Inc., I want to thank you for this important opportunity to present our proposal for 1,410 kHz AM. My colleagues and I look forward to answers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13152 Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13153 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Pannu, thank you very much for your introductory remarks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13154 Just a comment on the financials that you have tabled today. They are the same as what we have in our file.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13155 MR. PANNU: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13156 THE CHAIRPERSON: They are made on the same assumptions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13157 I heard you, Mr. Kumar, mentioning that you have budgeted money for rent but you may buy your own facilities. But that doesn't change the economics that is before the Commission. It is exactly the same numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13158 MR. KUMAR: Exactly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13159 THE CHAIRPERSON: So there is no ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13160 MR. KUMAR: That is why we have not included the rent part and expenses in our actual financial statement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13161 THE CHAIRPERSON: So it makes the thing clear for everybody, we are working from the same numbers throughout this period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13162 MR. KUMAR: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13163 THE CHAIRPERSON: My first questions will deal with ‑‑ I would say, first of all, that we had a series of questions but a good number of them have been answered by your oral presentation and your agreement to accept conditions of licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13164 So I will try not to repeat what you have already agreed to. But if it does happen, I apologize because obviously there were numerous commitments in your oral presentation and we appreciate that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13165 MR. PANNU: Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13166 MR. KUMAR: Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13167 THE CHAIRPERSON: My first question is to do with spoken word in your programming versus music programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13168 Could you give us, in terms of hours, how many hours of spoken word you are contemplating and then we will break it down between news and current affairs and other types of spoken were programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13169 MR. PANNU: It will be approximately 40 percent, so 126 hours, of 45. It will be approximately, we can say, around 55 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13170 THE CHAIRPERSON: Around 55?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13171 MR. PANNU: Around 55 to 60 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13172 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right. Between 55 to 60 hours of spoken word, which will be made up of what type of content?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13173 MR. PANNU: That will be, let's say, when introduction of any songs, the announcer will be speaking some words regarding music and the singer, as well as the writer. It would be including a news section too.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13174 THE CHAIRPERSON: How much news are you contemplating in terms of duration?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13175 MR. PANNU: We would have two hours news, which will be regional and national and international. Local news will be 1‑1/2 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13176 So altogether it will be three hours and 30 minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13177 THE CHAIRPERSON: So 75 percent of your news time will be dedicated to local news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13178 MR. PANNU: Two hours will be original, national and international.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13179 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13180 MR. PANNU: The local will be one and a half hours, which will be particular about Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13181 THE CHAIRPERSON: That hour and a half is over and above the two hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13182 MR. PANNU: Yes, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13183 THE CHAIRPERSON: So it is an hour and a half over three hours and a half of programming time. All right. I apologize for misunderstanding what you had said.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13184 News, does it include sports, weather, traffic or is it purely news material?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13185 MR. PANNU: It will be rather about sports as well as community events happening around.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13186 THE CHAIRPERSON: How will you gather the information for your news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13187 MR. PANNU: We already have quite a system set up in Toronto and we would be doing the same thing here in Montréal. We will be taking the news from overseas, which we already have our people working over there for international.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13188 About national, we will be picking up from various sources. And locally we would have our people sitting and they will be receiving the calls from ‑‑ because when we are talking about small groups, ethnic groups, mostly whatever happens in the community, people call first and then we call them and confirm is it right or wrong. If it is wrong, then we start asking why someone told us what is not right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13189 THE CHAIRPERSON: I see. By local news, obviously you are not talking about what we could listen to on CBC or any given commercial radio station for local news. It is news that is catering very specifically towards the community that you are serving and, as you say, more than likely they will be calling you to break the news so that the matter is covered.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13190 MR. PANNU: It is sort of that community news we call this community news, and about which will be related to Canada. That will be taken from various sources.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13191 THE CHAIRPERSON: What happens when there is a major, much broader issue?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13192 Take the City of Montréal as an example. The Mayor of the City of Montréal makes a major announcement that obviously is of interest for all the community. Will you be capable of accessing that information and how will you do it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13193 MR. PANNU: Yes, mostly. Like in Toronto, we have already set up everywhere our system. They send us newsletters. So we will be taking the newsletter from them through our e‑mail or through the fax and then we will make up the news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13194 You want to add something?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13195 MR. KUMAR: Well, basically there are two types of things. As Mr. Pannu has already mentioned about community information, they send us the information. You have mentioned about suppose the city sent us some information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13196 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13197 MR. KUMAR: Yes, we can develop a part of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13198 THE CHAIRPERSON: Obviously you receive a news release from the city, but there is something happening now. Obviously there is no news release because it's ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13199 MR. KUMAR: I understand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13200 We can always have one or two persons on contract which we can inform them "Okay, go and contact her", that information. Because the operation of the station is not as big as CTV or CBC or in a big national channel. It is not like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13201 But if it is really important, it can always be done.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13202 We had a very good experience. Last year we covered Canadian election on S.S. Television and I was the only person from S.S. TV to go visit the whole of Canada, having my camera and going there, talking there. I don't do that recording and reporting job every day, but for important events you can always find people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13203 THE CHAIRPERSON: But those are planned events.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13204 MR. KUMAR: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13205 MR. PANNU: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13206 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am trying to get your views regarding an unplanned event, something that breaks out today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13207 MR. KUMAR: For any such event we have to make arrangements. We are supposed to be there and those special situations can always be handled, and we should handle them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13208 THE CHAIRPERSON: So in a way you are saying to me you will handle at in the very same manner as any other radio broadcast services would do. They don't know about it before it occurs, but suddenly it happens.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13209 I'm just having in mind the drama that happened at Dawson College a year or so ago. It could have been of interest to members of your community because they could have had kids registered at Dawson College and they surely will want to know what is going on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13210 MR. KUMAR: Well, we cannot have everyday presence at most of the events like CBC radio or others may have. We cannot have. But definitely we have to make the arrangements for special situations, which we will be making.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13211 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, you have agreed to devote 60 percent of your broadcast week to ethnic programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13212 MR. PANNU: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13213 THE CHAIRPERSON: The rest will be in English and French. Could you break it down for us?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13214 MR. PANNU: Yes. We have our "Learning French" which will be the mix as well as Punjabi, English and French. And there is another program which will be called "Ethnic English". That will be English spoken word, but the music will be Indian, Hindi or Punjabi. It will be mixed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13215 Youth programs will be targeted in English to the youth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13216 THE CHAIRPERSON: In your written submission you have talked about "Huplish" and in January 14, 2007 you describe "Huplish" as being ethnic English. Again today in your oral presentation you refer to ethnic English.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13217 Is it a current language spoken by many immigrants? Is it something like Creole?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13218 MR. PANNU: Let me explain. In our Brampton application we had asked "Huplish". "H" just stands for Hindi, "U" stands for Urdu, "P" stands for Punjabi and the "lish" stands for English.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13219 THE CHAIRPERSON: I see.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13220 MR. PANNU: So in these days, whoever speaks Punjabi, he understands English as well as Urdu as well as Hindi. So what we are trying to do, we want to bring some kind of new mixture.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13221 My kids who are born here, they will be understanding Punjabi, Hindi, English as well as Urdu. When they will be speaking any word, they don't know where it comes from. It is coming from Urdu, it is coming from Punjabi or it is coming from Hindi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13222 But we have chosen that language by ourselves. It is not an official language anywhere in the world. But we did that thing, picked up the words.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13223 Like we can say in Bombay called Bollywood, they took from Hollywood. In Pakistan there is Lahore, they call Lollywood. So they adopted the way they think.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13224 So what we are trying to do here even, we have taken "Huplish" out because the Commission ‑‑ we tried to explain our ideas but the Commission said this is not an official language in our Brampton application. So we said okay, we will be not targeting any "Huplish" word in our application the previous time too.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13225 But unfortunately it has been considered by the Commission, "Huplish" is the language. Again, we say "Huplish" is not a language, but we are trying to explain to the Commission, the people who are second‑generation, what they understand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13226 MR. KUMAR: I would like to give an example. My son, he will sometimes say "Papa, I want to eat dalroty(ph)." Now, you don't have this word dalroty in English, but he is speaking English as he is telling me. He is from India so he ‑‑ there is a language which is spoken by the new generation, which is in its transition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13227 So it is a real situation. Whether we can give it a name are not is a different story; whether we can recognize it as a language or not is a different story. But we would use this word because somehow we find that probably we are little ahead of the time. Maybe people will understand this in the next two decades.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13228 THE CHAIRPERSON: So it is the language of the time. It varies from ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13229 MR. KUMAR: It is a very real language.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13230 THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ generation to generation as well somehow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13231 MR. PANNU: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13232 MR. KUMAR: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13233 THE CHAIRPERSON: Like Québeckers that were speaking Joual a few years ago. We hear less Chiac in New Brunswick, which we hear less and less but which is made up of old French with a mixture of English words and everything.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13234 MR. KUMAR: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13235 THE CHAIRPERSON: I appreciate the fact of that clarification because it seems to me that nobody at the Commission knew what "Huplish" was all about. So I think your explanation makes it more clear. That is what you call ethnic English. It is a mixture of words.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13236 MR. PANNU: Exactly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13237 MR. KUMAR: Exactly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13238 THE CHAIRPERSON: So it is not a real language, but it is the way the people speak.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13239 MR. KUMAR: That's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13240 THE CHAIRPERSON: Which sometimes is quite different than ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13241 MR. KUMAR: And it is a reality of the second generation immigrants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13242 THE CHAIRPERSON: In your application at section 7.10 you have written that you intend to serve various ethnic communities, and one of them you have identified as being Belgians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13243 MR. KUMAR: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13244 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have been wondering which language are you thinking when you are talking about the Belgian language?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13245 MR. KUMAR: I would like to respond to this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13246 Normally in Belgium people speak French, they speak German, they speak Dutch ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13247 THE CHAIRPERSON: They speak Flemish.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13248 MR. KUMAR: Yes.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13249 MR. KUMAR: But there are two native languages of Belgium. One is called Vlaamse and the second is called Wallon. These people who are living in Montréal are having Belgian roots so they need a bit of their culture also. So when we say Belgian language, we are talking about them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13250 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are talking about that. Those from Wallonie, they speak French like me. They may say nonante rather than quatre vingt dix, mais ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13251 MR. KUMAR: There is always, you know, the emotional sensitivities of the people. When we have to go to the Belgian community to start something, if we talk about what they know and what is close to their heart, it is good marketing and it is a good way to approach them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13252 THE CHAIRPERSON: What is the size of the Belgian community in Montréal? They surely appear to be very well integrated with the Francophone community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13253 MR. PANNU: Stats 1996, I have it: 31,375 Belgians are living in Canada. Also 92,225 indicated they had some Belgian ancestry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13254 So out of that 30 percent live in Québec. So what we think, approximately 10,000 to 12,000 Belgians are living in Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13255 THE CHAIRPERSON: I see. Well, if you have studied the community, you know much better how interested they could be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13256 On the music side you have committed to 10 percent musical to be Canadian selections. What are you contemplating?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13257 The music that you are contemplating broadcasting is music in the various languages that you will be broadcasting or coming from the ethnic communities you will be catering to?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13258 MR. PANNU: Yes, 10 percent of which we indicate the music, that will come from ethnic communities produced in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13259 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. But then the music is coming from the ethnic community, but the ethnic community, will they be singing in English and French or in ‑‑ because yesterday we heard a presentation about music bands that are made up of various ethnic communities who are sometimes singing in French or in English but they are from all sorts of origins.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13260 MR. PANNU: No, that will be into their language, like Punjabi, Hindi, Bengali, Tamil.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13261 THE CHAIRPERSON: The other music you will be broadcasting will also be in Punjabi, Urdu, Tamil, Hindi or will you have the ordinary North American music fare that we hear on all the radio stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13262 MR. PANNU: No, sir. It will be like "Tamil Voice" that we have 9:00 to 11 o'clock. There will be Tamil music. If we say Hindi music, it will be from India. If we say Urdu, that music will be in Urdu languages. English ethnic, again, this will be Hindi as well as Punjabi, but the announcer will make announcements and some words will be English and some will be in Punjabi, Hindi. It will be a mixture.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13263 THE CHAIRPERSON: From a pure regulatory standpoint, they are the so‑called Category 3 music?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13264 MR. PANNU: We can say Category 3 music which will be from the same language. If it is Armenian radio, there will be their language music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13265 MR. KUMAR: I can add here. When we talk about the 10 percent of the music coming from Canada, there are so many South Asian stars born here, who started singing here, and now they are big stars in India, in Pakistan and others. For example (inaudible).

LISTNUM 1 \l 13266 MR. PANNU: Yes, born in Toronto.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13267 MR. KUMAR: There are so many such people. So tons of stars, singers and others, they are in Toronto, they are in Montréal, they are in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13268 If we promote them ‑‑ so they are Canadian. Along with that, they are doing the music which most of these ethnic communities would like.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13269 MR. PANNU: Let me explain furthermore. We are ready have on Sur Sagar Radio and TV at least five singers which we have trained them. We helped them to promote them. Now they are singing in India. They are spending some time over there and some time here. So it is now their career.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13270 MR. KUMAR: Another important addition we can make here, when we talk about our French learning program or we talk about ethnic English program, so there there can be some content which is like French songs can be played there in the French program and, similarly, in our ethnic English program some North American English music can be played.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13271 MR. PANNU: That will help to understand ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13272 MR. KUMAR: That will integrate us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13273 MR. PANNU: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13274 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are contemplating synergies with your Toronto operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13275 MR. PANNU: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13276 THE CHAIRPERSON: Which type of programming will you share?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13277 MR. PANNU: We will be having 10 hours of programming from Toronto. We would be helping our staff, which will be a Montréal staff. It will be trained by the Toronto staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13278 THE CHAIRPERSON: But the programming to start with ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13279 MR. PANNU: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13280 THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ in which language will it be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13281 MR. PANNU: That will be called "Bhakhde Masle". We have it on television and radio. That is in Punjabi. Mostly those programs will be in Punjabi which are coming from Toronto.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13282 THE CHAIRPERSON: They are produced by you or they are brokered?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13283 MR. PANNU: Now, they are produced by us, by Sur Sagar or S.S. TV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13284 THE CHAIRPERSON: You will have brokered programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13285 MR. PANNU: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13286 THE CHAIRPERSON: Where will the programming be produced?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13287 MR. PANNU: In Montreal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13288 THE CHAIRPERSON: In Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13289 MR. PANNU: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13290 THE CHAIRPERSON: But in your facilities or at the facilities of the brokers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13291 MR. PANNU: We will give them facilities. It is up to the producer, that he or she would want to utilize, or they want to do it the way they want to do it at their home, or they have a private studio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13292 MR. KUMAR: We will be setting up our own studio in our station. If they wish to use it, they are most welcome to use it. But if they want to do some programming at other places, they are free to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13293 THE CHAIRPERSON: They are free to do it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13294 You are contemplating religious programming and obviously you are aware that we have a religious policy on balance programming. You have agreed to adhere to the balance rules of the religious policy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13295 MR. PANNU: Yes, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13296 MR. KUMAR: Definitely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13297 THE CHAIRPERSON: Making room for various faiths.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13298 MR. PANNU: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13299 MR. KUMAR: We have already earmarked time for the Christian programming. We have time for Islamic, we have our Hindu, we have the Sikh. Along with that we have one program where we say it is "Art of Living". Some persons may not be really religious, but some stuff is available for ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13300 THE CHAIRPERSON: You will be forming an advisory committee. Could you speak to us about their role, how its membership will be formed and how many times a year they will be meeting. Are they advisers to staff, to management. How could they impact on programming? Will they have a direct line of authority on somebody?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13301 MR. KUMAR: When we say that it will be an advisory board, it means that we want to learn from the collective knowledge and skill of the people who have really done wonderfully well in the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13302 So definitely we look forward to having an advisory board. We will be nominating those people because we need good advice. So it will be to our peril if we don't choose good people. We will choose the best of the people, somebody from the media, somebody from education, somebody from a religious or social activist and someone from youth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13303 So probably we will have five members of the advisory committee.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13304 The time period for this committee will be around three years and they will meet normally every three months. But if there is any special issue on which we need advice ‑‑ because when we say advisory body, we mean we seek advice from them. We seek direction from them. We seek knowledge from them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13305 We want to make some good decisions when we really need some good information. So they can be requested to come.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13306 As far as their involvement with the staff, when we do advisory board meetings, we don't intend to bring the staff there because we would love our advisory board members to give us a free and frank understanding of facts but to get involved with the staff we can always organize some get‑togethers, dinners, lunches where we provide them an opportunity to interact with other staff members so that informally some information can be shared in some message can be given.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13307 THE CHAIRPERSON: What will be the size of your advisory committee?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13308 MR. PANNU: Five.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13309 MR. KUMAR: Five.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13310 THE CHAIRPERSON: Five people?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13311 MR. KUMAR: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13312 THE CHAIRPERSON: Obviously coming from the various ethnic communities?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13313 MR. KUMAR: Yes. Like we can have one from South Asian which can represent Hindi, Punjabi, Gujarati, Tamil. Some good journalist from the South Asian community can be taken. A really great person from the European Community, like we are catering to Hungarian, we are catering to Bulgarians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13314 So we will be very neutral in the sense in trying to involve everybody in the process. It won't be just a Punjabi advisory board or a South Asian advisory board.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13315 THE CHAIRPERSON: Talking about Canadian Content Development now, in your application you had said that you were to give away to support Canadian music, journalism and other verbal content by $25,000 in the first four years and $30,000 for the three following years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13316 MR. PANNU: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13317 THE CHAIRPERSON: In your reply dated April 16th to our letter, we had understood that you had reduced your commitment by $3,000 for the first three years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13318 Now in your oral presentation today you had stated the numbers that were in your original application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13319 Could you please clarify if we are talking the $25,000 or $22,000?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13320 MR. KUMAR: On the 16th letter, actually this letter was written by me on behalf of Mr. Pannu and actually we discussed this issue on the phone because he was away in the United States to attend some important broadcasting conferences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13321 So when I talked to him, we had some misunderstanding in the communication and he said ‑‑ so I said that we will be just going to what we are supposed to do minimum. But when he came and he read the letter he said "I don't mean that".

LISTNUM 1 \l 13322 Then again I called to the CRTC and I sent an e‑mail that we are not withdrawing, we are making a straight payment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13323 Then we sent that letter to (inaudible) also. We have brought a copy of that letter. If the Commission wants, we can provide that. We have it here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13324 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I think we are okay with your statement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13325 MR. KUMAR: Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13326 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sure it is somewhere waiting to be circulated or filed. It is in the system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13327 MR. KUMAR: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13328 THE CHAIRPERSON: Probably it is Mr. Kumar, because you addressed the marketing issue. In the application, in the supplementary brief on page 3, you have written that:

"S.S. TV and Sur Sagar has 25 million monthly impressions and four million unique visitors."

LISTNUM 1 \l 13329 MR. KUMAR: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13330 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have been using the same number for S.S. TV on one hand and Sur Sagar on the other hand. Obviously in the case to Sur Sagar you are talking about listeners rather than visitors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13331 These numbers appear to be very, very impressive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13332 MR. KUMAR: Yes, they are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13333 THE CHAIRPERSON: I did spend some time and look at the BBM to figure out on the radio side which radio station in Canada had the largest reach.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13334 For the spring of 2007 it is CFTR in Toronto with 1,193,000 listeners on a weekly basis. How did you arrive at 4 million?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13335 MR. KUMAR: Basically, when we calculate this, we see on one day, on a particular day on Sur Sagar Television, around more than 100 or 200 or 300 ‑‑ the second is impressions, when we say we have around 15,000 subscribers to Sur Sagar Television, which is a paid specialty channel. We have more than 25,000 radios being sold in the Toronto market in our SCMO service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13336 If we take it that there is normally four to five members in the family, they are listening at some time in the day. Maybe one person is listening. If he is listening to the program three times in the day, so these are three impressions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13337 So if you calculate and multiply all of those, it comes. I'm not saying that we have 4 million or one million subscribers who are ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13338 THE CHAIRPERSON: But your supplementary brief talks about unique visitors or unique listeners. "Unique" means that even if a person has connected three times, it is always the same person. That counts only for one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13339 MR. KUMAR: I would like to respond to you in a couple of minutes. Let me check that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13340 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think the word "unique" ‑‑ maybe the word "unique" is inappropriate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13341 MR. KUMAR: Is inappropriate. Yes, okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13342 THE CHAIRPERSON: When I was looking at them, I was saying to myself, "Oh, those are very impressive numbers. I need to understand much better. Maybe I am in the wrong field."

LISTNUM 1 \l 13343 MR. KUMAR: Sir, I am not fully integrated with the Canadian society. I am also speaking ethnic English.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13344 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are doing very well, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13345 MR. KUMAR: Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13346 THE CHAIRPERSON: Don't be afraid and don't be shy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13347 MR. KUMAR: No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13348 THE CHAIRPERSON: In your brief at page 6 you are stating that Montréal is one of the most important business hubs in Canada, but you fall short in describing how Montréal is a city with an ethnic community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13349 Could you describe for us what you have found in terms of ethnic community to be served all your proposed AM station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13350 MR. KUMAR: If we go through the Canada Statistics we find that the total population of Montréal ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13351 THE CHAIRPERSON: StatsCan data, I can get them by myself. What I want to hear from you is what have you done.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13352 Have you visited those communities? Have you checked their interest?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13353 You didn't provide us with a given market study, but you may have done something else that we were not aware.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13354 MR. KUMAR: Honourable Chairperson, I have lived in Montréal for more than three years and I was very well involved in various communities. Even the students at universities and many religious communities, like there are churches and many more. So I was very involved with many communities. I have good friends in all communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13355 So from there itself, we understand that there is a huge ethnic population which is multicultural and they have diverse interests. They want diverse programming. Montréal is basically truly a multicultural city.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13356 It is a very well‑connected and very close city in a sense. When I compare sometimes Montréal with Toronto, it is totally different. In Montréal you get connected to the people in a very small time and very easily, which is not that true if you are to interact, integrate with the Toronto community or some other places.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13357 THE CHAIRPERSON: You obviously refer in your oral presentation to your expected revenues. Looking at your forecasted advertising revenues, I will say that your local advertising is somehow realistic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13358 What you call "Other" are the brokered programs, I suspect.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13359 MR. KUMAR: Yes, it is the brokered. We are going to charge around $65 per hour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13360 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is what I meant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13361 MR. KUMAR: So multiplying those dollars with the number of hours we are going to broker the programming, this is the approximate number which we got.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13362 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I see. Now, looking at your national revenues, compared with other applicants they appear to be fairly aggressive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13363 MR. KUMAR: We expect around $75,000 in a year, which means approximately $6,000 to $7,000 a month. If I get two or three ads from, say, Pizza Hut, I get an ad from McDonald's, this revenue should be enough to get it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13364 MR. PANNU: Let me intervene. I'm sorry to interrupt you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13365 Being in the media 20 years, we have many corporate advertisers in Toronto. The State Bank of India is quite a bigger bank, ICICI Bank in Toronto, as well as there are many other phone companies from east to west in Canada, they are promoting their product through us because mostly in these days immigrants are tapped. Phone companies mostly they tap immigrant people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13366 So this $6,000 to $7,000 per month is a very small amount of money, a very, very small amount of money which we even can go two times more than this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13367 MR. KUMAR: And the reason behind is the synergy with the S.S. Television and Sur Sagar Radio, because probably somebody who is not in the field, it is a huge revenue for him.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13368 But once we have already a TV channel going on for a couple of years, a radio station going for a decade, we are well‑connected with all these people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13369 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you looking to take advertising from the agencies in the English or the French language or you are looking to have commercials produced specifically in Punjabi or Urdu?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13370 MR. KUMAR: We look forward for both. We look forward from the English‑speaking, because we have already a younger generation who speaks very good English and when they listen to our radio programs, definitely we will look forward from everybody possible who wish to advertise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13371 The French companies want to advertise their product in the South Asian community, the people who are ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13372 THE CHAIRPERSON: But even if the commercial is in French ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13373 MR. PANNU: Let me put some more in it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13374 When we speak of Punjabi or English, our audience when we speak it, we have a mixed language, Hindi‑Punjabi, as we did it for" Huplish". And mostly our commercials, when we make the commercial, telephone will be in English, 416 19600, but the rest will be in Punjabi and Hindi. So it will be a mixture.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13375 It will be easy to understand those people. They don't speak French or they don't speak English. So it will be in three languages, so we can say four languages, Urdu, Hindi, Punjabi. So when we make a commercial, we make for audience they understand languages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13376 THE CHAIRPERSON: That applies well for local advertising because you co‑produce them yourself. But you mentioned Pizza Pizza and McDonald's.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13377 MR. PANNU: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13378 THE CHAIRPERSON: To my knowledge ‑‑ and correct me if I'm wrong ‑‑ they don't produce commercials in other languages than English or French.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13379 MR. PANNU: No, sir, they don't produce. But when someone wants to play on different ethnic media, they would rather play in their language is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13380 We have a commercial from English product and we translate into Punjabi because we have a Punjabi audience. So they understand Punjabi rather than English.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13381 So rather than running it in French or English, it is not good for them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13382 MR. KUMAR: It is in their best interest that they send a message which their audience understands better.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13383 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am not familiar with the radio side of it, but I visited in Newmarket ASN and they showed me a TELUS commercial that they have produced for TELUS. I don't know in which language but it was in one of the languages we are talking here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13384 The advertisers, they know what they want.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13385 If we were to grant you a licence as applied for, what will be the impact of your operation say on Radio Humsafar?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13386 MR. PANNU: Radio Humsafar will be affected very nominal, because when we see the market, the Montréal market, to run AM radio you don't need more than 100 commercial. You need less than a hundred commercial to run AM radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13387 Radio Humsafar will be not affected that much. It may be affected 2 to 3 percent, but not more than that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13388 MR. KUMAR: I would like to add to that, to the personal experience of Mr. Pannu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13389 Mr. Pannu started SCMO service similar as Humsafar in Montréal. He has in Toronto. After he started that, lots of AM/FM stations, they have come up giving South Asian programming. But he has no problem. Rather, he is very strong because he has a very different type of audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13390 The people who listen to the programs of SCMO service are probably different from those who listen on AM, listening in the car, listening on a truck, listening here and there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13391 But normally the SCMO service is more related to the loyal servers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13392 He can explain more about that part.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13393 MR. PANNU: If someone spends $100 to buy a radio, he will listen whenever he would have time. If someone doesn't spend any money, he won't bother. Even he may not listen to AM. But if he spent the money, if he spent the $100, he will listen continuously whenever he has a few minutes or one hour or two hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13394 At the particular morning time, it is a religious segment which we run in Toronto. I think Humsafar is doing exactly the same because many people running SCMO, they took the same kind of programming from Sur Sagar. So they are copying the Sur Sagar so they are successful in that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13395 THE CHAIRPERSON: If the Commission was to grant one of the two ethnic FM applications that we heard yesterday and this morning, and also grant you a licence, how will the new FM player impact on your business plan?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13396 MR. PANNU: I don't see any impact on AM if I receive the licence because it depends how much experience you have, what kind of operation you are doing. If you are not so connected, not so closely connected to the community, it doesn't matter if you have an FM, you have an AM, you have a TV channel, you can not be successful. If you are connected closely to the community, then no way you get failed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13397 So I don't see any impact on AM or any impact on FM from AM or impact from FM to AM. It depends on the person who runs the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13398 MR. KUMAR: If we go through the history of any radio station being closed, radio stations normally don't get closed because of some new radio station has come. They normally get closed because of their own internal problems rather than the outside competition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13399 Markets to adjust to the situations and the best survive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13400 THE CHAIRPERSON: As you know, a $190,000 commitment towards CCD is a serious commitment. What will happen if, for one reason or another, you are not meeting your projection?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13401 MR. PANNU: I don't see any difficulty to give $190,000 in seven years. It is only $25,000 per year. If we calculate a month, it is approximately $2,100.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13402 To raise $2,100, you need only two commercials to run continuously a day. So you just think, you are running two extra commercials to fulfil your commitment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13403 MR. KUMAR: To add to that, S.S. Television Inc., which is the applicant here, is an organization in a very good financial position. We have already applied in another application for a DTH where Mr. Pannu has already committed ‑‑ shown his own resources to the tune of $2 million.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13404 So for us, this commitment is absolutely no problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13405 THE CHAIRPERSON: My two last questions have to do with the technical.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13406 If the Saint‑Constant site ‑‑ I understand you have a letter from Mr. Eserly(ph) and that is not what I'm looking at.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13407 But if for any technical reason when the time comes to implement the proposed station it doesn't work for any reason, do you have an alternate site? Have you looked at the possibility of an alternative location?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13408 MR. PRATOLA: At this point we have not really investigated the alternative because we believe that there is a signed document which is committed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13409 But let me say that should it not work, because it is not only the fact that, you know, you go together holding hands or you go together punching each other out in order to get to the same place, what happens ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13410 THE CHAIRPERSON: Let me put another aspect to it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13411 The municipality doesn't agree so it has nothing to do with the operator.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13412 MR. PRATOLA: All right. Well, if you municipality doesn't agree, then we will look for another location and we will make the necessary changes to the technical brief, to whatever coverage is required. We will make all that is needed ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13413 THE CHAIRPERSON: But for the time being you haven't looked at an alternative?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13414 MR. PRATOLA: No, because ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13415 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right, that is the answer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13416 MR. PRATOLA: Yes, the answer is no simply because we have a commitment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13417 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's the answer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13418 My last question: The Commission grants a licence to Radio Humsafar at the frequency they have applied for, but the Commission says we are granting you a licence but you have to find another frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13419 Do you have any views on that, first from a technical standpoint and, second, I will say from a business standpoint because obviously it has a strong business consideration?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13420 MR. PRATOLA: We have taken that into consideration, but we haven't taken anything into any factual mode. There are a couple of frequencies available, especially a couple of frequencies that have been transferred over to FM and therefore the AM frequencies have been returned back to the people, the CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13421 We are confident really. We don't really see that there should be a problem. But if there is a problem, we will deal with it and we will make it right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13422 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13423 Commissioner Cram...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13424 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Pannu, I was reading at page 14 of your address today, if I can just take you there. I'm not sure I totally understand

LISTNUM 1 \l 13425 MR. PANNU: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13426 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Do you have it, sir?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13427 MR. PANNU: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13428 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You have it. It says:

LISTNUM 1 \l 13429 "Non‑commercial programming will be 14 hours."

LISTNUM 1 \l 13430 That is a religious programming, is it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13431 MR. PANNU: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13432 COMMISSIONER CRAM: "Commercial

programming will be 43 hours."

LISTNUM 1 \l 13433 What happens to the rest of the time?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13434 MR. PANNU: No. We Talk, which will be produced by S.S. TV, that is 43 hours. 14 hours is religious programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13435 I think we missed 69 hours. We didn't put it here. 69 hours will be brokered.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13436 MR. KUMAR: It is put there. I think it is put there. We have put point (c):

"Brokered programming will be 69 hours."

LISTNUM 1 \l 13437 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. Then that is what adds up to the total.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13438 MR. KUMAR: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13439 MR. PANNU: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13440 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Did I read in your application somewhere that you were going to have open line programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13441 MR. PANNU: Open line will be from Toronto mostly. It is called "Bhakhde Masle". We have been doing that quite a time, more than 14 years. So that will bring one platform to talk through any Montréal‑Toronto. So calls will be forwarded from Montréal to Toronto.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13442 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So it would be like a joint one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13443 MR. PANNU: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13444 COMMISSIONER CRAM: How many hours will there be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13445 MR. PANNU: Of that is 1‑1/2 hours every Sunday, 9:00 to 9:30 p.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13446 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes, Mr. Kumar?

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 13447 MR. PANNU: That will be 8:00 to 9:00, which we already have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13448 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You did say 1‑1/2 hours, 9:00 to 9:30.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13449 MR. PANNU: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13450 COMMISSIONER CRAM: My math is weak, but not that weak.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13451 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13452 Did you have something you wanted to say, Mr. Kumar?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13453 MR. KUMAR: No, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13454 COMMISSIONER CRAM: No?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13455 Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13456 THE CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, thank you very much. We will take a 15‑minute break and continue with the next applicant.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1421 / Suspension à 14 h 21

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1441 / Reprise à 14 h 41

LISTNUM 1 \l 13457 LE PRÉSIDENT: Madame la Secrétaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13458 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13459 We will proceed with Item 18 on the agenda, which is an application by Radio Humsafar Inc. for a licence to operate a new AM commercial ethnic radio programming undertaking in Montréal. The new station would operate on frequency 1,400 kHz, Class C, with a transmitter power of 1,000 kW day‑time and night‑time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13460 Appearing for the applicant is Jasvir Singh Sandhu who will introduce his colleague. You will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13461 Thank you.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 13462 MR. SANDHU: Thank you. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13463 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you wait for a second, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13464 THE SECRETARY: Just a second.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13465 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are listening to music. On écoute ‑‑ Tous que j'entends est de la musique.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13466 LE PRÉSIDENT: Monsieur Mathieu, pour les fins du dossier, vous êtes sous le même serment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13467 MR. MATHIEU: Exact. Je l'affirme, Monsieur.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13468 LE PRÉSIDENT: Parfait.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13469 Mr. Sandhu, please.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13470 MR. SANDHU: Thank you. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen of the Commission and everyone present here. My name is Jasvir Singh Sandhu, President of Radio Humsafar.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13471 On the right side of me is our broadcast consultant, Mr. Mike Mathieu. On my left is Navjot Kaur. She is our News Director and she is the editor‑in‑chief of the popular weekly newspaper (inaudible) Punjabi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13472 Behind us are our supporters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13473 Please allow me to introduce myself. I am married and I have three children. After some years in broadcasting in India I came to Canada in 1988 and was the producer of the South Asian program on CFMB Radio in Montreal for 10 years. Thereafter, I started my own business an SCMO Radio Humsafar.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13474 We have been serving the Montréal South Asian community for over six years. You will find enclosed a presentation and some more information about Radio Humsafar.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13475 Over and above the SCMO service, I own production facilities that produce jingles, dramas, documentaries, extra for different ethnic stations across Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13476 Also Radio Humsafar is presently, and with the AM station will be better equipped to export our CRTC regulated Canadian programming to different parts of the world, for example California, either by internet or by satellite, thus exposing Canadian South Asian emerging artist to other countries.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13477 Strong with my broadcast experience, of which 16 years was spent in the Montréal ethnic market, I am well aware of the Montréal radio market and I am well informed of the needs of the South Asian Montréalers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13478 Now I ask our consultant, Mr. Mike Mathieu, to further expand on our AM application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13479 Mr. Mike.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13480 MR. MATHIEU: Good afternoon, Mr. Arpin, Mr. French, Mrs. Cram. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen of the Commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13481 I am still under oath and my name is Michel Mathieu and it gives me great pleasure this afternoon to present to the Commission this afternoon Radio Humsafar's application in person at this hearing to further enhance and discuss with the Commission the service that Radio Humsafar proposes to the Montréal South Asian community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13482 In order to provide adequate service to all the South Asian population of Greater Montréal ‑‑ and they reside in Lasalle, Lachine, Dollard‑des‑Ormeaux, Pierrefonds, Roxboro, St. Laurent, Dorval and throughout the West Island of Montreal, as well as parts of Laval ‑‑ this coupled with a cost‑effective, reliable means of achieving our coverage requirement, we conducted under my supervision, and with the help and collaboration of Mr. Doug Macaulay, Professional Engineer, a technical study so that the most efficient way to achieve our goals giving the maximum efficient use of a frequency be proposed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13483 After investigating FM options and considering the high cost of implementing and operating an AM high‑power, multi‑tower, directional antenna, it was obvious that the use of a strategically located, omnidirectional antenna, such as the Valcom fibreglass, located as close as possible to the population to be served, with a power of 1 kW day and night, would provide adequate service to the population to be served.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13484 This being done, the frequency of 1400 KHz was identified to provide the required service given the possibility to operate in the omnidirectional mode, as opposed to a multi‑tower array, which cost a lot. This provides for the use, like I said, of a fibreglass Valcom whip antenna, which facilitates a lot the site location near the target population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13485 The Lachine site proposed by the approved CJLO Radio Concordia on 1690 kHz was chosen, because not only does it provide our coverage objective, but also by collocating with Radio Concordia, CJLO, there is very important implementation and operation cost savings that occur, thus providing to both CJLO Radio Concordia and to Radio Humsafar with additional funds to better their respective programming services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13486 As the Commission knows, the use of such a system has proven itself through the years as the Commission has approved CJWI, the Haitian station in Montréal; CHUU, Radio Moyen‑Orien; Radio Shalom CJRS, which is about to go on the air and doing very well, thank you; and CJLO in Montréal, which is also about to go on the air, as well as three stations 1610, 1650 and 1690 kHz in Toronto, all operating or about to operate using the same parameters as the Radio Humsafar's proposal, 1 kW omni, strategically located in the centre of the population that we wish to serve.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13487 One who is well aware of the Montréal ethnic radio market understands the devastation such as the proposed Radio Humsafar as well as CHOU Radio Moyen‑Orien, CJLO, CJRS or CJWI would not have had the opportunity to operate under such as is hereby proposed by Radio Humsafar. These stations would simply not exist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13488 From a programming angle, owing to its wide experience in Montréal, at CFMB but mostly on the SCMO service, Mr. Sandhu proposes that Radio Humsafar provide service by broadcasting in Punjabi, Hindi, Urdu, Tamil, Bangladesh, the French to serve the younger Bill 101 generation of South Asians, and English to serve the most educated South Asian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13489 But Radio Humsafar will not be limited to the above. As future demands may require, Radio Humsafar is committed to provide adequate service to all within the South Asian groups and languages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13490 Our SCMO experience shows that many Guyanans, Trinidadians, Afghans are already Radio Humsafar listeners because these persons have bought SCMO radios from Radio Humsafar.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13491 Radio Humsafar is proud to propose quality service to these eight groups in seven languages, all of which are directly identified to the South Asian population of Greater Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13492 As per past experience on CFMB and on its SCMO, Radio Humsafar feels that in order not to spread ourselves too thin it is wise to propose my condition of licence to serve the proposed eight groups in seven languages. Many other AM frequencies being available in the Montréal area ‑‑ and I can certainly vouch for that ‑‑ to offer a quality service to other groups and languages that are not within the South Asian community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13493 Given the new CRTC Policy 2006‑158, Radio Humsafar pledges, by condition of licence, to invest in direct contributions to the Canadian content development a realistic amount of $10,000 per year for each of the seven years of the first term of licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13494 The Commission will note that given the required amount of $500 as per the new CRTC policy, Radio Humsafar's contribution exceeds by $9,500 per year the minimum requirement of this amount.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13495 Radio Humsafar pledges to contribute 60 percent, $6,000 per year of our total contribution to MUSICACTION, and $4,000 per year in local Montréal South Asian emerging talents, which would be a contribution as approved by the Commission. If not, then the money would be given to MUSICACTION.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13496 Radio Humsafar hereby pledges to offer high quality in‑house Montréal produced programming aimed at the Greater Montréal South Asian community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13497 We suggest to the Commission that the Radio Humsafar proposal is the best, the best one to fulfil the needs of the Montréal South Asian population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13498 Mr. Sandhu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13499 MR. SANDHU: Thank you, Mr. Mathieu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13500 As the Commission is aware, Radio Humsafar has been providing an SCMO service to the Montréal South Asian community for the last six years. As technologies change, SCMO services are becoming obsolete. As the Commission has approved Radio Moyen‑Orien, CHOU, Radio Shalom, CJRS, and others in Toronto to replace their SCMO service by an AM service, the time has come for Radio Humsafar to do the same.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13501 The Montréal ethnic market being what it is, and definitely smaller in revenues than the Toronto market, should Radio Humsafar find itself in competition with another ethnic broadcaster on the AM or FM band competing for the South Asian market, this would fragment Radio Humsafar's audience and revenues in such a way as to seriously jeopardize Radio Humsafar's future.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13502 To the contrary, should the Commission approve the Radio Humsafar application, we will then be better equipped to face our commitment to provide 100 percent locally produced high quality South Asian programming aimed at the Greater Montréal population, but also exported to other countries, thus exposing the talent of our Canadian South Asian emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13503 As the Commission understands, I have invested large sums of money in the SCMO service. It would be a disaster to me if the SCMO service was given an over‑the‑air competitor. This would result in six years of financial investment and a lot of work and dedication to go to waste.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13504 I sincerely thank you and my colleagues, and I am happy to answer your questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13505 Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13506 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Sandhu. I want to apologize. I called you Mr. Humsafar.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13507 MR. SANDHU: It's okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13508 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is with regret. I should have called you Mr. Sandhu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13509 MR. MATHIEU: Mr. Arpin, I call him Mr. Humsafar all the time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13510 MR. SANDHU: It's okay.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13511 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cram...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13512 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13513 Mr. Sandhu, I will direct my questions to you and then you can pass them on to whomever you would like, but at your panel; not in the room, just the people with you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13514 MR. SANDHU: All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13515 COMMISSIONER CRAM: In terms of your programming ‑‑ I'm going to start out with that ‑‑ are you planning on doing all of your own programming in‑house?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13516 MR. SANDHU: That's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13517 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you are not going to be acquiring programming from anywhere else?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13518 MR. SANDHU: No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13519 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13520 News. You say you have 9.5 hours. Did I not see a breakdown at Item 6 of your letter of August 28, 2006 showing 10 newscasts per day, seven days per week, duration eight minutes?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13521 MR. SANDHU: Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13522 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. Of that average duration of eight minutes, can you give me a breakdown of what is news, what is sports, what is weather?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13523 MR. SANDHU: I have a news director so you can answer the question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13524 MS KAUR: Yes. Good afternoon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13525 We have a total time of news that is four hours and 40 minutes per week, total time of the news, which per day is 40 minutes and per week it is like 280 minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13526 In this market minute, weather, traffic, it is twice at least in every program. In the morning program, that is three hours of duration, it is at least twice and because it is the rush‑hour traffic hour and so we do it more often.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13527 Also in the evening program ‑‑ it is like from 3:00 to 6:00 p.m. ‑‑ we do the same as we do in the morning program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13528 As far as everything, market minute, weather, traffic and the sports news, and if there are events that are going, for example, if it was the World Cup, or any other sports even that are on, they are going on. So we try to cover more often than anything else.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13529 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So of the total four hours, did you say 40 minutes of news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13530 There is 9.5 hours news, weather, sports, et cetera. Right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13531 MS KAUR: Just a moment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13532 MR. SANDHU: Weekly, yes, that's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13533 MS KAUR: Per week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13534 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. Then you say of that news is four hours and ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13535 MS KAUR: Four hours and 40 minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13536 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Forty minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13537 And of that news, how much is local, national, international? Do you have a target you aim for?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13538 MS KAUR: Yes, ma'am, sure, I will try.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13539 For the local news we have two bulletins, they are local news in Punjabi, 10 minutes approximately. Roughly 10 minutes each.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13540 Then we are having news in Bengali, one bulletin, again 10 minutes roughly. Then 10 minutes bulletin in Tamil also.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13541 So it comes to like 40 minutes of news, local news produced here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13542 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. So if I can understand your programming, you have news seven days a week, 10 casts per day, primarily in morning drive and afternoon drive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13543 Is that it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13544 MR. SANDHU: That's right. That is what we're doing right now at the SCMO service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13545 COMMISSIONER CRAM: On your SCMO.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13546 MR. SANDHU: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13547 COMMISSIONER CRAM: In the morning in what language is the news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13548 MR. SANDHU: We have different languages. Like, every hour there will be a different language. Let's say in 7 o'clock we have Punjabi news. Then at 7:00 or 8:30 we will have Hindi news. We go like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13549 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you alternate throughout the day, do you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13550 MR. SANDHU: That's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13551 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Do you have a rotation, like that you would do Hindi, Punjabi, Gujarati, Tamil?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13552 MR. SANDHU: Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13553 COMMISSIONER CRAM: How many languages do you put your news in rotation in?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13554 MR. SANDHU: Mostly news, because Punjabi, Hindi and Urdu we have more hours. So most of our bulletins are Punjabi, Hindi and Urdu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13555 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13556 Then these local 10 minute news, are they on at specific times for the specific communities? Is that the idea?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13557 MR. SANDHU: Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13558 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. So when are they? When is the Punjabi news, the community news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13559 MR. SANDHU: We think the drive time, like 6:00 to 9:00 in the morning and in the evening. So drive time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13560 Like most of the people, they are listening in their cars so we will target the news to them, you know, like the big population, like Punjabi, Hindu and the Urdu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13561 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And the Urdu, all right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13562 MR. SANDHU: Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13563 COMMISSIONER CRAM: How many news people you have?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13564 MS KAUR: For the news that we gather, if I understand correctly your question, are we talking about specifically the local news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13565 COMMISSIONER CRAM: We will start with that and then we will go on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13566 MS KAUR: In the station, we have two people right now. Then we have other sources, people whom we consult for anything. Let's say there is an event or there is an emergency or there is something that we need to cover live, then we have different sources that we contact right at the spot and we just get the information from there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13567 So in numbers I think it will be hard to say because ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13568 MR. SANDHU: Actually, I just want to add something.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13569 MS KAUR: Go ahead.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13570 MR. SANDHU: Actually, two full‑time, as she said. Two full‑time news readers, like programming people, and then we have two part‑time. They come on weekends and evenings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13571 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What did you do, for example, when the Dawson College terrible day happened?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13572 MR. SANDHU: We tried to cover live or as soon as possible when we know an event or anything happened like that. For example, Dawson College, I went myself over there. I was broadcasting live from there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13573 I was the first one in Canada to interview the killer Kimveer's parents and all the mainstream media, they were taking news from me. They came to me for the interview, even that was broadcast on CFCF TV, on Global TV and was printed in La Presse and the Gazette newspaper.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13574 COMMISSIONER CRAM: When you did that, were you broadcasting in English, Punjabi, Urdu, Hindi, what?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13575 MR. SANDHU: Because those were Punjabi people, so I was broadcasting in Punjabi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13576 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Only in Punjabi?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13577 MR. SANDHU: That's right. Some part of it in English, but because they speak Punjabi so I had to broadcast in Punjabi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13578 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13579 So we have 9‑1/2 hours out of 126 hours. What other spoken word will you be having?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13580 MR. SANDHU: We will have ‑‑ like our most important program is a talk show that I do myself daily from 8:00 to 10:00 p.m. in the evening on SCMO right now. So we have different topics. I work very closely with different bodies like professors of different universities, and hospitals, police department and City Hall, City of Montréal and different cities in Greater Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13581 So we do talk shows, mostly information. And there is a call‑in show, so people have their views, they ask questions from our specialists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13582 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Is that seven days a week, Mr. Sandhu?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13583 MR. SANDHU: That is Monday to Saturday actually. We do different issues Monday to Thursday, and Friday and Saturday we have a program called "Bujhartan" so people, they participate. That is a light program. So they want to remember their stories from their childhood, from their grandparents. So they share that kind of thing and words with the people and if they have questions, and they all try to solve them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13584 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you get Friday and Saturday off.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13585 MR. SANDHU: No, I do myself Friday and Saturday, too.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13586 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You do them, too?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13587 MR. SANDHU: That's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13588 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So seven days, that is 14 hours of spoken word in the talk shows, in the chat shows.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13589 MR. SANDHU: Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13590 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What other spoken word you have?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13591 MR. SANDHU: Then we talk about different information, what's happening in the City of Montréal. We provide all the information, we have different guests, interviews, shows like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13592 COMMISSIONER CRAM: That is not news or in your talk show?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13593 MR. SANDHU: That is most of the information. Like we have different guests. They speak about their profession and, you know, the community can take benefit from ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13594 MR. MATHIEU: If you allow me, Mrs. Cram, it is public affairs programming as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13595 COMMISSIONER CRAM: How much of that is there? How many hours of public affairs programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13596 MR. SANDHU: I'm sorry. I forget to introduce my other colleague, Mr. Vikram Swaminadhan. He is our marketing director.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13597 He wants to answer that question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13598 MR. SWAMINADHAN: Approximately 14 hours a week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13599 COMMISSIONER CRAM: In addition?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13600 MR. SWAMINADHAN: In addition, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13601 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So 14 hours of public affairs kind of things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13602 MR. SWAMINADHAN: Talk shows, public affairs, events happening locally, as well as integrating new immigrants, tips, health tips, recipes. It is all covered under that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13603 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Sandhu has just said to me that there is two hours of talk show, pure talk show, 8:00 to 10:00 p.m. seven days a week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13604 MR. SWAMINADHAN: Six days a week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13605 MR. SANDHU: Six days a week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13606 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Six days a week. So that is 12 hours. And then there is just two extra hours of the other public affairs ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13607 MR. SWAMINADHAN: This is what is currently happening on the SCMO. We plan to change that on the AM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13608 MR. SANDHU: We have some weekly programs, like ladies' programs, kids and teen programs. Some volunteers, students they come and they do their show. They share information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13609 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So how much spoken word are you planning for your proposed licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13610 MR. SANDHU: We can say almost 40 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13611 COMMISSIONER CRAM: 40 percent for...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13612 MR. SANDHU: Of our total 126 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13613 COMMISSIONER CRAM: 48 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13614 MR. SWAMINADHAN: Actually, we plan to get more feedback from the various communities once we get the AM to decide exactly how much we will do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13615 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. But 46 percent of 126 hours is about 48 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13616 MR. SANDHU: No, 40 percent I said actually. Sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13617 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Forty per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13618 MR. SANDHU: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13619 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Four times 12 is 48, so that is about 48 hours. You are planning total spoken word. Is that the idea?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13620 MR. SANDHU: Yes. Even when we play music, so we have to identify the singer, the information about the album and to do with the singer, you know, the producers of the CD.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13621 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. So you're talking jock talk.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13622 MR. SANDHU: Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13623 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Excluding jock talk, how many spoken word items are there?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13624 MR. SANDHU: So then we can say just news and public affairs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13625 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And the call‑in shows.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13626 MR. SANDHU: Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13627 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So in your proposed station it would be about the same, then. It would be about 14 hours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13628 MR. SANDHU: Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13629 COMMISSIONER CRAM: With the news in addition. Correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13630 MR. SANDHU: The news is included.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13631 No, I'm sorry. The news in addition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13632 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13633 MR. SANDHU: That's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13634 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So it is 12 hours, plus 9.5 hours, plus jock talk.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13635 Is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13636 MR. SWAMINADHAN: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13637 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13638 Mr. Sandhu, you now have an advisory council and you plan, if you get this licence, to expand the advisory council.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13639 How are you going to choose individuals on the advisory council?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13640 MR. SANDHU: Actually, we already have an advisory council, so there are five numbers of the council. We meet once a month, sometimes once in two months. We discuss about programming, for the betterment of the programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13641 COMMISSIONER CRAM: My question was: How are these people chosen?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13642 MR. SANDHU: So those were chosen from the different communities. Like we have eight different ethnic groups so those are chosen from the different ethnic groups.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13643 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Do the groups themselves choose the person or do you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13644 MR. SANDHU: You know, we try to meet the different leaders of the ethnic groups. So we ask them who is the leader.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13645 Because I am involved in the community, I know them, you know, like most of the organizations, so it helps me to choose the right person for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13646 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you, in the end, choose that person?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13647 MR. SANDHU: Right, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13648 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Are right. You say they meet monthly?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13649 MR. SANDHU: Monthly, sometimes once in two months.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13650 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. Their idea is to tell you what the community wants, I suppose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13651 MR. SANDHU: Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13652 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I suppose your point is, if I asked you how are we sure that you are doing what the community wants, is you would say you pretty well have to because otherwise they wouldn't listen to you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13653 MR. SANDHU: Actually, we are having surveys every six to eight months, like on different occasions, what are the needs of the community, what can be done for the community, and we discuss with the advisory board.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13654 So from there we choose like what programming we need.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13655 MR. SWAMINADHAN: We also have a survey form when we sell the radios. When we sell a radio to a person, they fill out a survey form what exactly they want to listen to, what are their favourite programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13656 MR. SANDHU: So that helps us a lot.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13657 MR. SWAMINADHAN: That helps us decide where we should add or reduce.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13658 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13659 I don't know if you were here when I was going through boxes with Ms Griffiths, but if you go to your Appendices 7‑10 and 7‑12 in your application ‑‑

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 13660 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It is the normal regulatory body having to fill in the boxes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13661 The middle term there is "Ethnic groups to be served".

LISTNUM 1 \l 13662 Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims are, if I have it right, really religious groups rather than ethnic groups.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13663 So would it be fair to say the Punjabi language is for the Punjabi ethnic group?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13664 MR. SANDHU: Actually, those are three different groups. You know, we can categorize them like Sikhs ‑‑ like let's say Punjabis from India, they are mostly Sikhs, and Punjabi speaking in Urdu, they are Muslims. There are some Hindus, they speak Punjabi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13665 MR. SWAMINADHAN: The Punjabi population is divided between India and Pakistan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13666 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You people have the fortune of having two people who have lived in India on this panel. So we have a fairly good idea.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13667 MR. SWAMINADHAN: Yes. So there is a lot of Punjabi speaking Pakistanis as well as ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13668 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. Help me, because we are regulators and we have to have boxes filled.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13669 The ethnic group, not the religious group to be addressed ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13670 MR. SWAMINADHAN: Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13671 COMMISSIONER CRAM: ‑‑ by speaking Punjabi would be Punjabi, would it not?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13672 MR. SWAMINADHAN: It would be Punjabi; the region of Punjab, which would cover a lot of area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13673 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The individuals living in Punjab.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13674 MR. SWAMINADHAN: A lot of people who have migrated all over North India also speak Punjabi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13675 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13676 MR. SANDHU: But even Punjabi is divided into two. Like one Punjabi in Pakistan and the other one in India.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13677 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Because of partitioning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13678 MR. SANDHU: So they are totally two different groups.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13679 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes, because of partitioning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13680 So Hindi, if I talked about an ethnic group, I would be talking in Canadian terms East Indians. Would that be a fair group?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13681 MR. SANDHU: We can say that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13682 MS KAUR: Actually, ma'am ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13683 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Indo Canadians?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13684 MS KAUR: Actually, ma'am, because Hindi is the national language in India, so almost everybody who is from South India or from North India or any part of India, they speak, they understand Punjabi, because as we get lots of requests and other ‑‑ like forms are being filled in, like we just told you about the survey forms, they write their language as Hindi also. So they do understand Hindi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13685 So when we are referring to Hindi, so that means people who belong to ‑‑ it could be people who belong to India and also who can understand. Or maybe they are from Trinidad or maybe they are from any other part, I mean who speak Hindi or who understand Hindi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13686 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Let me tell you, this is a very rigid regulatory exercise. We have to give you, if we give you a licence, a condition of licence that lists the languages, the minimum number of languages you will be speaking and the ethnic groups to whom it is addressed. As a minimum. You can always expand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13687 So the only thing I'm trying to do is find the ethnic groups so we could do it as a condition of licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13688 MR. SWAMINADHAN: Ma'am, even the Gujaratis in Montréal, they prefer to listen to their programs in Hindi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13689 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. I'm right back here, Hindi, the ethnic group to be addressed would be Indo Canadians? Does that sound good to you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13690 MR. SANDHU: We can say like most of ‑‑ the middle of India, like they speak Hindi. They understand and they speak Hindi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13691 MR. SWAMINADHAN: Seventy‑five percent of the region would speak Hindi, as I understand it; a region which includes Pakistan, India and Bangladesh.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13692 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So what ethnic group would be addressed by using Hindi?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13693 MR. SANDHU: That we can say Central India.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13694 MR. SWAMINADHAN: Indo Canadians. I don't know if you have Pakistan Canadians. I don't know what the exact category is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13695 COMMISSIONER CRAM: We will say "Indo Canadians".

LISTNUM 1 \l 13696 MR. SWAMINADHAN: Indo Canadians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13697 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Urdu, Pakistani, would that be the primary ethnic ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13698 MR. SWAMINADHAN: And Bangladesh.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13699 MR. SANDHU: That's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13700 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Pardon me?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13701 MR. SWAMINADHAN: Bangladesh as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13702 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Urdu, Bangladeshis ‑‑ or Bengali.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13703 MR. SANDHU: Some of Bengalis, they speak Urdu, they understand Urdu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13704 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. Well, we can then say for Urdu, Pakistani and Bangladeshi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13705 MR. SANDHU: Yes, mainly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13706 MR. SWAMINADHAN: And a large percentage of Muslims living in India.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13707 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. We leave it at that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13708 Tamil, Sri Lanka of course.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13709 What does "South Asian" mean?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13710 MR. SWAMINADHAN: Actually, it means south of India.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13711 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You mean a Tamil state.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13712 MR. SWAMINADHAN: The South Indian part of India and Sri Lanka.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13713 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Tamil state.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13714 MR. SWAMINADHAN: South of South Asia.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13715 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. Sri Lanka. Is that okay?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13716 MR. SWAMINADHAN: Yes. Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13717 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Bengalis, Bangladeshis?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13718 MR. SWAMINADHAN: Bengalis and Bangladeshis, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13719 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13720 French, younger Bill 101 generation and English, most educated South Asians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13721 So how many hours does this add up to of a language other than French and English?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13722 MR. MATHIEU: If you allow me, there is 126 hours a week of broadcast time and you have nine hours in English and French, so that is 18. So we will subtract 18. 126 to 18 ‑‑ my mathematics is not the best.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13723 MR. SWAMINADHAN: 108.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13724 MR. MATHIEU: 108. So 108 hours a week is in a language other than French and English.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13725 But you do understand that the French and English are directed to the South Asian people, so it is 100 percent ethnic station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13726 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I'm talking about COL for a third language other than ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13727 MR. MATHIEU: All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13728 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You are making me do the math myself. This is disastrous.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13729 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 108.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13730 COMMISSIONER CRAM: 108, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13731 MR. SWAMINADHAN: Yes, 108.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13732 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Would you agree to a COL that your programming would have a minimum of 108 hours per week in a third language other than English or French?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13733 MR. MATHIEU: We would accept a condition of licence for 108 hours a week for a language ethnic other than French and English.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13734 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Lord, you are going to make me do it again. Would you also agree to a COL of ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13735 MR. MATHIEU: 86 percent?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13736 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I think I have 76 ‑‑ 86 percent. Yes, you're right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13737 MR. MATHIEU: If you deduct 14, it is two times seven, I think it is 86.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13738 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I was very good in history, but not in anything else. And I don't have my calculator here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13739 So a COL that you would address ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13740 MR. MATHIEU: Of 86.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13741 COMMISSIONER CRAM: How many ethnic groups should we have there, seven?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13742 MR. MATHIEU: Eight I believe; eight groups in seven languages, I believe.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13743 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Eight groups. A minimum of eight groups and ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13744 MR. MATHIEU: Seven languages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13745 COMMISSIONER CRAM: That your percentage of ethnic programming would be a minimum of 86 percent?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13746 MR. MATHIEU: We would accept such a condition of licence without a problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13747 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13748 Now we have the ethnic programming all worked out, 86 percent minimum. Would you agree that within that ethnic programming any music played within ethnic programming you would play 7 percent Canadian content?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13749 MR. MATHIEU: I think we would certainly agree to that. I believe that our percentage there ‑‑ I forget what it is, but I think it is more than 7 percent. It is probably around 10 or 12, I believe.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13750 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Your competitor offered 10.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13751 MR. MATHIEU: Well, I am pretty that we have ‑‑ I don't have it here, but I'm sure we normally would have offered more than 7 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13752 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Did you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13753 MR. MATHIEU: I'm pretty sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13754 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Funny, I read the application. I don't know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13755 Well, maybe you can get back to us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13756 MR. MATHIEU: At any rate, we accept a minimum of 7 percent Canadian and we would like to exceed that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13757 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. In the event that you would do any non‑ethnic programming, would you agree to a COL of 35 percent Cancon should you be playing Category 2 and 10 percent Cancon should you be playing Category 3?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13758 MR. MATHIEU: We would accept that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13759 But, Mr. Sandhu, do you have any plans to broadcast ‑‑ I don't think so. We are an ethnic station. It's Radio Humsafar. I don't see us doing the American hit parade or something like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13760 But we are prepared to accept a condition of licence, just because the French and English that Radio Humsafar is going to do is ethnic. It is aimed at the ethnic. It is going to be the speakers. It is not going to be me. It is going to be my friend here or Mr. Sandhu or there are other South Asian people, and it is going to sound ethnic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13761 There is a reason why I say this that we will talk later on in life. But right now I just want to make sure that the Commission understands. Radio Humsafar has all the intention in the world to be an ethnic station at all times.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13762 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Now, if we move on to your CCD, I was under the understanding ‑‑ and I confess there have been a lot of papers going past me in the last couple of days ‑‑ that for years one and two your total annual contribution was going to go to MUSICACTION. I think that was what it was going to do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13763 But it seems, based on what you said today, that you are thinking about having your South Asian emerging talent commence in year one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13764 Is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13765 MR. MATHIEU: What I said is what is in the application. But yes, I am confused too because we started with something and then we had to amend it because you amended the rules and the ethnic catalogue is no longer an acceptable situation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13766 This being said, we had to change many things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13767 So let me explain what we said here; is that we pledged by condition of licence to agree to your 2006‑158 policy, for the first thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13768 You would like to know exactly what Radio Humsafar plans to do. What we plan to do ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13769 There is another letter, Mr. Sandhu, dated before that time where we say everything.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13770 But at the moment let me say that we plan to get here ‑‑ "Radio Humsafar does not request an exemption".

LISTNUM 1 \l 13771 So Radio Humsafar is pleased to invest $6,000 per year in the foundation MUSICACTION, which represents 60 percent of our total $10,000 yearly contribution.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13772 I do believe that our contribution is $10,000 a year, year one to year seven. I can double‑check the application if you give me ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13773 MR. SANDHU: No, that's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13774 MR. MATHIEU: That's right, okay. So this is where we are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13775 So we have amended our situation to reflect the new policy of the Commission and be within the Commission's accepted guidelines. We will contribute $6,000 a year to MUSICACTION, and the remaining $4,000 will be spent in the South Asian community to help emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13776 We need, as you understand, to develop artists. We need to develop Canadian content, so this is where it is going to go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13777 What I said in the presentation is should that not be acceptable to the Commission, should we come up with a grant to this gentleman here or somebody and it is not acceptable, then the money will go to MUSICACTION. Or if the money has gone, the equivalent will be in MUSICACTION.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13778 So the minimum contribution that Radio Humsafar will do every year is $10,000 in acceptable contribution to the Commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13779 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Well, let's talk about this local Montréal South Asian emerging talents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13780 Initially I thought it was going to be an on‑air contest or an on‑air performance. Is that what it is?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13781 MR. SANDHU: Right. Even right now we are doing on‑air contests every Saturday and Sunday. So four hours weekly we are doing that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13782 COMMISSIONER CRAM: That is where I get into problems, Mr. Sandhu, is that if you are already doing it, wouldn't it just be a normal cost of business and isn't it good for your business that you do it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13783 MR. SANDHU: I think Mr. Mike wants ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13784 MR. MATHIEU: Yes. I understand that we are doing it now on the SCMO. But the way we see the Canadian talent content is we are spending $10,000 a year, every year, towards Canadian talent. So if we have a contest, it is to give away money to artists, to emerging artists, to help them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13785 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So the $4,000 is the prize?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13786 MR. MATHIEU: Yes. Maybe one prize, maybe many prizes. Mr. Sandhu may expand. It may vary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13787 We are committed to spend $4,000 a year minimum to give to artists. If, for whatever reason, that doesn't work, then we will give the money to MUSICACTION and say, "Okay, fine. That is our contribution." Yes, sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13788 MR. SWAMINADHAN: Besides this, we have an annual program where we do emerging talent for the whole community. We are not counting that as part of this $10,000 that we are pledging. That goes on regardless.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13789 Every year we have a function where the entire community gets involved and they come and they show their talent in front of the whole community. That is a separate issue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13790 This is $10,000 that we pledge $6,000 to MUSICACTION and $4,000 however you see fit out of what we would like to do with it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13791 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. So if I am hearing from you, all you really want to do is get rid of the issue and you'll give it to MUSICACTION if there are any problems?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13792 MR. SANDHU: That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13793 MR. SWAMINADHAN: That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13794 MR. MATHIEU: Well, I wouldn't like to say get rid of it. I'm sorry to ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13795 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I know, I hear you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13796 MR. MATHIEU: We want to do it, we want to do it right, but should there be a problem then we commit ourselves to give the money to MUSICACTION. But obviously we would find ways in future years to commit it and give it to the right, appropriate people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13797 You understand, your rule is brand new and we have to really understand and live with it. There seemed to be some confusion because when the application was made, it was under the old rule. So we had the ethnic catalogue and all this and now it has changed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13798 So the money stays the same. Radio Humsafar is still committed to Canadian talent, that's for sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13799 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Would you be prepared, Mr. Sandhu, to give it to a third party as a prize for an otherwise existing or to exist talent search?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13800 MR. SANDHU: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13801 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13802 Economically ‑‑ and you addressed it yourself, Mr. Sandhu, in your last ‑‑ it is the second‑last page of your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13803 You said it would be a disaster for you, if I understand it; that there would either be an AM or an FM competition. But you are only talking about somebody competing for the South Asian market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13804 MR. SANDHU: Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13805 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Now, you heard Mr. Ray this morning, I think, talking about how he thinks ‑‑ and I think this afternoon Mr. Pannu was saying an SCMO is a totally different animal because you have to pay money and because you invested money, you listened to it all the time but you don't have it in your car.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13806 MR. SANDHU: Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13807 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You don't have it anywhere where you don't have your own receiver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13808 MR. SANDHU: That's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13809 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It's almost like there are two different markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13810 I take it you disagree with that assertion?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13811 MR. SANDHU: Could you repeat it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13812 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I think Mr. Pannu and Mr. Ray both said today that the SCMO was a totally different market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13813 MR. SANDHU: No, I don't say that is a totally different market. In South Asian market, so we are doing programming for South Asian, but an SCMO service, you know, it is limited to like people who have to buy the radio. So not everyone can take benefit from it. So we have to widen our service to AM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13814 MR. MATHIEU: May I add something, please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13815 As a consultant, I have made a few transfers from SCMO to AM, the reason being is that the SCMO, with today's technology, we are in 2007, is getting really obsolete.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13816 As Mr. Sandhu was saying, and as you know very well, one needs to buy a radio and is a prisoner of that radio to hear our service. If you would be so kind as to grant us the AM licence, anybody and his brother in the Montréal area with any radio, because they all have the AM band, will pick up our service, which makes things a lot easier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13817 If we are stuck to stay on SCMO and somebody else is doing a sizable number of South Asian programming, the first issue that is going to happen is that people are going to stop buying radios from us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13818 The second thing that is going to happen is that the sponsors are going to want to be identified to add over‑the‑air service. That would kill the SCMO.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13819 In Toronto it as a whole different ballgame. I have done applications in Toronto and we're working on something right now. But the situation in Toronto is you have a lot more money. The ethnic market is bigger and the dynamic of the town is bigger.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13820 If you have 60,000 people in Montréal, they bring in so much money. If you have 60,000 people in Toronto, they bring in more money because there are more businesses and the town is booming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13821 For example, most of the head offices are now in Toronto. La Bourse, the big, is now in Toronto. So all these things being said, if I am running an SCMO in Montréal, whether it be South Asian or any language or anything, if you give me competition over the air, whether it is AM or FM, I'm dead. It is that simple.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13822 Madam Cram, I have quite a few clients right now talking to me about doing this conversion or this change that Radio Humsafar is proposing. We have done some in the past and I expect to do more, and there are frequencies in Montréal, AM by the way, to do it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13823 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So is it your point that the economy is declining here and the target population is smaller than Toronto? Is that the concept?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13824 MR. MATHIEU: The target population is smaller. The economy used to be better years ago, but now it is better, it is good. The Montréal market, the revenues of radio are going up, not down. But that is not the case. The case is if I'm running a service on SCMO and nobody else is doing that service, then there is an incentive for people to buy radio and the advertiser who needs, who wants to talk to these people, must come to that service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13825 However, on the other ballgame, if there is an SCMO and all of a sudden the same programming or almost, that Mr. Neeti P. Ray agreed this morning that his programming is the same as SSTV and us, if you have something like that over the air, you don't think the SCMO is going to suffer?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13826 I'm sorry, I think so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13827 Put yourself in the following situation. You have one radio in your house. That one radio will pick up Radio Humsafar. All the other radios in the house don't pick up Radio Humsafar. All of a sudden, all the radios, the one that you bought plus the other one picks up another station that is giving you basically the same programming. Your habits are going to change.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13828 Whereas in Toronto there are so much more availabilities, there is so much more demand, you can have many more ethnic. You can have many more South Asians or other language stations because the money, the people, it is there; it is a different mentality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13829 Vancouver is big, bigger than Montréal, different mentality. You cannot treat it the same way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13830 So this is what I'm saying. This is Montréal. This is 2007 ‑‑ and I'm under oath here, and I really believe in what I say, Madam Cram. I'm honest. I am a consultant. We have seen each other at hearings many times.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13831 I Radio Humsafar faces competition from over the air, it is going to hurt them very, very seriously. I can't swear that it is going to kill them. I can't give you a percentage. I can assure you, I am convinced it is really going to hurt them big time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13832 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13833 I just have one more question, and it is in your financial projections. I don't know if you necessarily have to look at it, because I can't find my copy either.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13834 I notice that you have provision for national advertising and I was somewhat surprised by that. It is at ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13835 MR. MATHIEU: Madam Cram, I'm sorry, my colleagues were speaking to me at the same time. I apologize.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13836 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It is your financial projections.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13837 MR. MATHIEU: Yes, I am looking for them right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13838 COMMISSIONER CRAM: There is national advertising there. That kind of surprises me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13839 MR. MATHIEU: All right. National advertising revenues for an ethnic station such as us will tend to be very, very low.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13840 COMMISSIONER CRAM: They are, but I'm surprised there are any.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13841 MR. MATHIEU: There is an agency in Montréal called Target Radio, Radio Unis(ph), who specializes. There is another agency, not to compete with Radio Unis but to complement them, which is called Synergy Media which has been started by Radio Shalom.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13842 We have looked at all these issues and I believe I have $6,000 in there for national sales, if I'm not wrong. And the total is $221,000 per year ‑‑ yes, they are right here. All right. I have them right here. There we go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13843 So we have $6,000 in national, $215,000 in local. Well national, you are wondering why we have $6,000 or why we don't have more or less?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13844 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Why there is any.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13845 MR. MATHIEU: Why there is any? Simple.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13846 You take the agency like Radio Unis ‑‑ there are other ones ‑‑ $6,000 is a very low figure. For instance, you have some government campaigns on driving or whatever I'm thinking of. They will place ads and they will sell, because don't forget now that this is going to be an over‑the‑air service, much easier to sell than an SCMO.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13847 You see, if you go to Radio Unis with an SCMO ‑‑ and I don't want to speak for them; they are not here. But I know them, they are very good people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13848 If you suggest to them you have an over‑the‑air, they can go and say well, this is the South Asian community in Montréal. There are so many people, there are so many this, so many that. $6,000 becomes a very realistic figure for national sales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13849 I know stations that can do better. You are not going to do $50,000, but you could double that easy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13850 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13851 Thank you, Mr. Chair.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 13852 THE CHAIRPERSON: Lady and gentlemen, thank you very much for your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13853 We will take a 10‑minute break and at a quarter to 4:00 we will hear the next application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13854 MR. SANDHU: Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13855 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1534 / Suspension à 1534

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1553 / Reprise à 1553

LISTNUM 1 \l 13856 LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame la secrétaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13857 LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci, Monsieur le président.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13858 Nous entendrons maintenant l'article 19, qui est une demande présentée par Communications Média Évangélique en vue d'obtenir une licence visant l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation de radio AM commerciale de langue française à Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13859 La nouvelle station serait exploitée à la fréquence 650 kHz (Classe B) avec une puissance d'émission de 5 800 watts le jour et la nuit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13860 M. André Joly comparaît pour la requérante, il nous présentera ses collègues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13861 Vous disposerez de 20 minutes, par la suite, pour faire votre présentation. Merci.

PRÉSENTATION / PRESENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13862 M. JOLY : Peut‑être souligner qu'il y a certains paragraphes qui ne seront pas lus pour abréger dans le temps.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13863 Alors, bonne fin d'après‑midi à tous. Mon nom est André Joly, président de Communications Média Évangélique, Gospel Media Communications.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13864 A ma droite, notre consultant radio que vous connaissez tous très bien, Michel Mathieu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13865 A ma droite et à ma gauche, deux artistes qui oeuvrent dans le domaine de la musique chrétienne contemporaine au Québec, soit Cathy Renzella et Peter Shannon, qui prendront la parole d'ici quelques minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13866 Nous avons vu au cours de la dernière décennie un intérêt grandissant un peu partout dans le monde pour la musique chrétienne contemporaine. Depuis plusieurs années, le Festival Gospel de Repentigny au Québec accueille annuellement plus de 15 000 personnes attirées par les rythmes et le message positif que cette musique apporte.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13867 Alors qu'au Canada anglais les artistes de musique chrétienne contemporaine profitent de nombreuses antennes diffusant leurs oeuvres, il en est autrement au Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13868 Au Québec, pour entendre de la musique chrétienne à la radio, il faut se rendre dans le Nord de la province, à Rouyn‑Noranda, où les artistes francophones ont la possibilité de faire connaître leur musique et leur talent grâce à une radio locale, CHIC FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13869 Maintenant, des dizaines de milliers de résidants de la région de Montréal aimeraient avoir le même privilège que les citoyens de Rouyn‑Noranda, comme c'est le cas pour de nombreuses grandes villes du reste du pays.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13870 Il y a même des villes canadiennes qui peuvent profiter de la présence d'au moins deux stations de radio canadiennes diffusant différents styles de musique de la musique chrétienne contemporaine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13871 Communications Média Évangélique a totalement l'appui de la communauté artistique québécoise spécialisée dans la musique chrétienne contemporaine dans cette démarche visant la mise sur pied de cette station de radio à Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13872 Lors de notre première demande, l'ADISQ avait conclu après analyse de notre dossier que notre formule musicale contribuerait à accroître la diversité de l'offre musicale à Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13873 Dans notre nouvelle demande, nous ne faisons qu'accentuer notre désir de faire connaître à Montréal tous ceux et celles qui oeuvrent dans cette industrie au Québec, mais qui souffrent énormément de l'absence d'une tribune importante pour se faire connaître.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13874 Présentement, nos artistes québécois doivent sortir du pays pour faire une carrière en français. D'autres ont décidé de modifier leur nom pour qu'il sonne plus anglophone afin de faire carrière au Canada anglais ou aux États‑Unis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13875 Au cours des dernières décennies, la musique chrétienne contemporaine est passée au stade industriel en Amérique du Nord.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13876 Le chiffre d'affaires du Gospel aux États‑Unis est passé de 381 millions de dollars annuellement en 1995 à plus de 700 millions de dollars en 2005. Les ventes ont donc augmenté de 80 pour cent en 10 ans.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13877 Cette industrie n'aurait pas connu un tel essor s'il n'y avait pas eu de stations de radio pour faire connaître le produit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13878 Québec risque d'être envahi par la musique Gospel américaine si éventuellement il n'y a pas de fréquence de radio locale offrant de produits canadiens et québécois. Plusieurs stations de radio américaines AM et FM offrant à leurs auditeurs de la musique chrétienne contemporaine américaine peuvent être captées dans la région de Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13879 Les grands magasins spécialisés dans la vente de CD à Montréal n'offrent pas à leurs clients des productions Gospel francophones, et comme il n'y a pas de radio Gospel pour faire connaître le produit francophone ou anglophone canadien, les magasins ne sont pas intéressés à les offrir à leur clientèle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13880 Dans notre demande, nous avons démontré que le produit francophone est disponible au Québec, et si vous avez visité notre site internet, vous avez constaté que notre contenu musical est totalement francophone et qu'on peut jouer pendant des heures et des jours des pièces musicales francophones, sans offrir aux auditeurs deux fois la même pièce.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13881 Toutefois, la diffusion sur l'internet ne nous permet pas de toucher un grand public. Seule une diffusion par les ondes AM nous permettra d'aller chercher des dizaines de milliers de personnes qui aiment la musique chrétienne contemporaine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13882 Pour faire connaître des artistes canadiens, il n'y a qu'une solution, soit une antenne puissante diffusant sur la grande région de Montréal leur produit musical.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13883 Je laisse maintenant la parole à l'un de ces artistes qui souhaite ardemment faire une carrière fructueuse au Québec et à travers le pays et qui va également vous parler de nombreux artistes qu'il connaît très bien et qui ne peuvent pas, pour le moment, avoir une belle carrière chez nous.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13884 Je cède, donc, la parole à Peter Shannon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13885 M. SHANNON : Bonjour, mesdames et messieurs les commissaires.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13886 Mon nom, c'est Peter Shannon et je suis musicien, auteur/compositeur et interprète depuis plus de 30 ans, et ceci est dans le monde séculier aussi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13887 J'ai connu et joué avec plusieurs noms au Québec et aux États‑Unis. Ça fait une dizaine d'années maintenant, environ 12 ans, que je suis impliqué dans le milieu artistique chrétien du Québec. J'ai joué avec beaucoup de merveilleux artistes qui sont connus partout ailleurs sur la planète, mais qui, jusqu'à maintenant, demeurent dans l'ombre ici au Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13888 Un exemple qui a été cité ce matin, c'est Luc Gingras, dont j'ai joué trois ans avec. On a été jusqu'en Georgie aux États‑Unis. Il va partout en...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13889 Je vais en nommer quelques‑uns : Luc Dumont, Maggie Blanchard, Olivier Cheuwa. C'est juste quelques‑uns que j'ai eu l'honneur d'ouvrer avec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13890 Chez nous à Montréal, il y a des dizaines d'artistes ‑‑ c'est entre 30 et 50, d'ailleurs, au moins ‑‑ talentueux de tout genre qui produisent, au moment que l'on se parle, des CD de qualité mais qui n'ont pas de véhicule dans les médias.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13891 Voici quelques autres noms, d'autres noms d'artistes formidables du Québec : Tabitha Lemaire, Alain & Lyne, Richard Toupin, Carole Bernard et la Chorale Jireh, qui est avec Mario Pelchat, Sophie Loehn, et je pourrais continuer à en nommer plusieurs, mais juste pour ne pas prendre trop de temps, laisser le temps à mes amis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13892 Il y a des compagnies qui spécialisent à Montréal dans la distribution de ces CD, dont Diffusion Vie, CIM (le Centre international de musique évangélique) ‑‑ j'ai des choses ici si ça vous intéresse de voir; l'ADP (Association des Psalmistes).

LISTNUM 1 \l 13893 Puis en Europe, il y a ‑‑ toutes francophones ‑‑ Sefora; il y a aussi le CLC en Europe; il y a le TopBoutique; il y a Muzik Paradise!

LISTNUM 1 \l 13894 Ce sont tous des distributeurs de disques chrétiens évangéliques contemporains Gospel qui ne sont absolument pas connus par la population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13895 Partout en Amérique du Nord, les Stellars, les Doves, les Oasis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13896 Puis au Canada, récemment, les Covenant Awards témoignent ‑‑ ça, c'est le Gospel Music Association ‑‑ de cette croissance phénoménale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13897 Nos artistes chrétiens sont connus partout dans le monde : en Guadeloupe, en Tahiti, en Congo, en Suisse ‑‑ mais pas à Montréal, pas au Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13898 Des postes de musique chrétienne sont partout au Canada, par exemple, ici à Ottawa, la CHRI mais pas encore à Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13899 En plus, l'ADISQ a démontré un intérêt particulier pour cette industrie. La différence pour les artistes, c'est que, dans d'autres pays, ils ont la possibilité de se faire entendre mais pas encore ici.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13900 De plus, le message de pardon, d'espoir, de paix, de joie, trouvé dans cette musique dynamique et vivante, ce sera comme un phare sur les ondes. Notre jeunesse a besoin d'entendre leur propre son avec un autre message que celui trop souvent véhiculé dans la musique contemporaine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13901 Des styles variés tel que le Pop, le Rock, Classique, Hip‑hop, Soul, Black Gospel, Country, tout ça sont utilisés pour amener les gens dans une réflexion intérieure saine puis équilibrée.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13902 Dans la province qui a le plus haut taux de suicide, nous avons besoin d'une dotée d'outils pour encourager et amener nos jeunes à voir la vie dans une perspective différente.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13903 La musique a une très grande influence, et tous nos artistes sont équipés, entraînés, formés, motivés et préparés à faire entendre des sons qui peuvent faire la différence dans notre société contemporaine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13904 Nous pouvons toucher des milliers de gens, parfois sans espoir, juste à travers une parole encourageante entendue dans un chant sur les ondes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13905 Pour ces raisons et plusieurs autres, nous vous demandons, donc, de bien vouloir accorder le permis de diffusion à CKZW. Merci beaucoup.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13906 M. JOLY : Alors, maintenant, vous allez entendre Cathy Renzella, qui profite d'une belle carrière internationale, mais qui est pratiquement inconnue au Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13907 Cathy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13908 MME RENZELLA : Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13909 Bonjour, Monsieur le Président, Madame et messieurs les conseillers, ainsi que tout le personnel du Conseil.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13910 Je me présente : Cathy Renzella. Je suis une artiste québécoise, auteur/compositeur et interprète de Gospel depuis plus de 30 ans déjà, et c'est ma passion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13911 Ayant produit plusieurs albums déjà, et le plus récent * Entre n'Ours +...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13912 Excusez là, je me cherche un petit peu dans mes notes. Je n'ai pas l'habitude de lire, j'ai l'habitude de parler spontanée.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13913 Alors, je me présente aujourd'hui dans mon costume d'* Entre n'Ours +, espérant mettre un peu de soleil dans votre journée justement, et je vous présente aussi notre son radio. Alors, j'espère que j'ai réussi à mettre un petit peu de soleil dans votre journée.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13914 Alors, malgré ma passion et mes albums, je ne suis toujours pas connue au Québec, n'ayant pas de temps d'antenne sur les ondes de radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13915 Toutefois, je suis bien connue et appréciée en Europe et dans plusieurs pays de la francophonie, et ce, à cause de la radio. Alors, mes chants passent non seulement sur des ondes de radio Gospel, mais dans le séculier aussi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13916 On m'a déjà arrêtée même dans les rues de Marseille pour me féliciter pour un concert et me demander mon autographe, ce que j'ai trouvé assez particulier parce qu'on ne me connaît pas au Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13917 Et même si j'ai chanté à * Star d'un Soir + avec mon oncle, Bobby Haché, les gens trouvaient ça vraiment wow! le Gospel, mais on ne me connaissait pas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13918 Je ne charge jamais pour mes spectacles parce que je suis une personne qui aime donner et j'aime les gens.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13919 Je vois que, dans notre société, il y a beaucoup de gens qui sont fatigués et découragés, stressés, d'autres qui sont toujours en train de courir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13920 Donc, j'avais vraiment à cour de faire un album particulier, qui s'intitule * Pas si loin d'ici +, et son but justement est de dire qu'on n'a pas le droit de baisser les bras si ce n'est que pour retrousser nos manches. Donc, en un mot, c'est courage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13921 Je ne sais pas si vous avez déjà vu des films avec des bonnes valeurs, vous savez, le genre de films qu'il n'y a pas de sexe, ni de violence, ni de meurtre, mais vraiment des bonnes valeurs, exemple, * Payer au suivant +.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13922 Je ne sais pas pour vous, mais moi, ça me laisse un certain sens de bien‑être et de l'espoir dans notre humanité, et c'est un petit peu mon but au travers de mes chansons. C'est ce que je veux apporter dans ma communauté à Montréal et les environs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13923 Je voulais faire la même chose pas seulement au niveau des adultes mais aussi au niveau des enfants, et voilà la raison pour laquelle je fais des albums pour enfants, * Entre n'Ours +.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13924 Alors, je parle des bonnes valeurs, de la politesse, la gentillesse, le respect des autres, de soi, le partage, le pardon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13925 Puis il est question aussi des bons et des mauvais secrets, et je parle même aux petits amis au sujet du divorce, parce qu'il y a beaucoup d'enfants qui vivent le divorce de leurs parents et sont tellement brisés.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13926 Et tout ce que j'écris, tout ce que je partage, c'est vécu. Je me suis toujours dit : Je n'ai pas vécu cette enfance là pour rien. Un jour, je vais pouvoir aider les petits amis qui souffrent en silence, et c'est vraiment le résultat qu'on voit dernièrement avec * Entre n'Ours +.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13927 Je vous ai amené les affiches également. Si vous voulez voir un petit peu le royaume d'* Entre n'Ours +, vous pouvez regarder ça tout à l'heure si ça vous intéresse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13928 Alors, mon but, c'est d'amener une certaine guérison aux enfants qui souffrent afin qu'ils puissent devenir des adolescents épanouis, et éventuellement des femmes et des hommes accomplis, qui ont une bonne estime de soi, qui sont bien équilibrés, qui savent savourer la vie malgré les difficultés.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13929 Alors, voila! Quand on a fait le lancement d'* Entre n'Ours +, on avait les 12 enfants sur scène, les clowns, les oursons, tout était bien, mais je n'ai plus 20 ans, comme vous pouvez le voir, et j'étais épuisée.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13930 Donc, je suis allée voir le médecin et je lui ai demandé un boost pour pouvoir continuer, et on m'a annoncé une bombe à la place, on m'a annoncé que j'avais le cancer, et mon médecin m'a dit : Il faut tout arrêter pour un an et demi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13931 Alors, j'ai dû tout arrêter, et malheureusement, mes albums sont restés dans mon sous sol parce que nous n'avons pas de temps d'antenne.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13932 Malgré cela, je me suis dit : Bon, j'ai peut‑être le cancer, mais le cancer ne m'aura pas. Alors, 10 jours après mon opération, j'avais une conférence de presse, et deux semaines suivant cela, j'étais déjà sur scène avec la troupe, et on chantait au festival Gospel de Repentigny. On a fait huit spectacles pendant le week‑end.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13933 J'ai décidé de ne pas gaspiller mon épreuve. Alors, voilà, j'ai choisi d'aller en chimio avec mon costume d'* Entre n'Ours +, et j'ai décidé de prendre des photos pour qu'on puisse faire des cartes de prompt rétablissement pour les enfants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13934 Un jour, j'espère pouvoir aller dans les hôpitaux avec mon ours Chemo, qui veut dire chimio en anglais, et pouvoir chanter aux enfants et leur dire, je comprends, parce qu'il y a une différence entre j'imagine ce que tu vis et je sais ce que tu vis. Mon message, c'est : Courage, mon petit bonhomme ou mon petit bout de choux, toi aussi, tu vas passer au travers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13935 Vous savez, ce que j'aimerais faire... excusez les émotions. Ça ne fait pas longtemps de ça, hein. Je viens tout juste d'apprendre que je suis cancer‑free.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13936 Mon désir, c'est d'aller voir les enfants faire des spectacles, mais aussi leur offrir les albums, leur offrir un ours Chemo, mais on ne peut pas faire ça sans argent, hein. Alors, pour ça, il faut que les albums soient sur les antennes pour qu'on puisse se faire connaître.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13937 J'aimerais aussi, un jour, participer au Téléthon pour les Enfants. Pourquoi pas?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13938 Alors, voilà! C'est un petit peu le cri de mon cour, comme vous pouvez le ressentir. Ah! que d'émotions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13939 J'ai monsieur Jean Lajoie du * Grand Journal + de TQS qui a entendu parler de cette chanteuse‑là qui a le cancer, et qui veut chanter pour les enfants qui ont le cancer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13940 Il est venu m'interviewer, et vous pouvez voir ‑‑ mon doux ‑‑ l'entrevue sur mon site www.cathyrenzella.com. Vous avez tous les détails dans le petit document.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13941 J'ai eu un contact aussi d'une dame qui m'a écrit, qui a entendu parler de moi. Elle est avec l'EUCAN. Donc, possiblement, les portes vont s'ouvrir bientôt dans les hôpitaux, et monsieur Lavoie aimerait venir avec son équipe pour pouvoir nous filmer à ce moment‑là et apporter un petit rayon d'espoir pour les petits amis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13942 * Entre n'Ours + est déjà dans plusieurs garderies et même dans différentes écoles au travers du Canada, et surtout en Europe, et même au Congo et au Maroc. Et savez‑vous quoi? On ne nous entend toujours pas à la radio. Ça, c'est juste de bouche à oreille. Alors, je trouve ça vraiment extraordinaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13943 Mon époux et moi, on fait de l'animation à toutes les semaines dans un quartier défavorisé de Montréal, et on essaie de faire une différence dans la vie des enfants dans un quartier où règne les gangs de rue vols, viols, prostitution et on essaie de ramener les bonnes valeurs dans la vie de ces enfants‑là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13944 C'est extraordinaire déjà les témoignages qu'on a des parents et des professeurs des enfants, qui disent, wow! on ne reconnaît plus les enfants. On veut vraiment faire une différence, et ça, via les chansons, les chansons et l'animation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13945 Il y a toute sorte de musique, même celle qui influence nos jeunes à faire des choses atroces. Regardez le taux de suicide que nous avons au Québec et toutes les fusillades qu'on entend parler dans les écoles. C'est vraiment terrifiant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13946 Alors, ce projet me tient à cour parce qu'un de mes frères a été assassiné, et son meurtrier a tenté de se suicider dans sa cellule, mais il n'est pas mort sur le coup. Nous sommes allés le voir pour lui dire qu'on le pardonnait, et une heure plus tard, il est décédé, ce jeune homme là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13947 Je suis allée chanter aux funérailles du meurtrier de mon frère, justement à Montréal Nord, pour pouvoir alléger le cour de cette famille‑là qui vivait une tempête tellement noire, mais je voulais être pour eux un rayon d'espoir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13948 Alors, bien chers commissaires, il est vrai que nous ne pouvons pas rejoindre tout le monde. Je le comprends, je le réalise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13949 Tout comme l'enfant qui se lève tôt et va à la rive et essaie de relancer à l'eau les étoiles de mer qui sont sur la plage, puis un vieillard lui dit : Mais est‑ce que tu crois vraiment faire la différence, parce qu'il y en a tellement? Puis le petit bonhomme qui tient une étoile de mer dans sa main dit : Mais pour celle‑ci, je fais toute la différence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13950 Alors, de même, la musique Gospel n'est peut‑être pas pour tout le monde, mais pour quelqu'un qui a besoin d'un petit mot d'encouragement, de soutien, de paix, de joie de vivre ou d'éclat de rire, pour celui ou celle qui nous écoute sur les ondes de la radio Gospel à Montréal et qui a un besoin pour ce petit rayon de soleil là, eh bien, ça peut faire toute la différence, et selon moi, la musique Gospel, je la compare à un spa, mais un spa intérieur qui est comme un baume pour le cour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13951 Et puis si vous me le permettez, comme conclusion, j'aimerais laisser la parole à une de mes petites amies que j'apprécie beaucoup, Musline (ph).

LISTNUM 1 \l 13952 Il faut l'arrêter parfois parce que quand elle part, elle ne finit plus, Musline.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13953 Alors, tu te présentes, ma belle Musline.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13954 MUSLINE : Bonjour, je m'appelle Musline.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13955 MME RENZELLA : Je crois que Musline, elle a une toute petite histoire à vous raconter comme conclusion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13956 Vas‑y, Musline.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13957 MUSLINE : Eh bien, c'est l'histoire de la petite souris qui traverse le pont avec son ami l'éléphant, et là, le pont, il s'est mis à trembler de tout bord, tout côté, et là, la petite souris se retourne à son ami l'éléphant et lui dit : Hey, je te dis qu'on le fait trembler le pont nous deux, hein.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13958 MME RENZELLA : Alors, la morale de cette histoire, mes chers amis, c'est que, ensemble, on peut faire des exploits.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13959 Alors, je vous remercie énormément pour votre écoute, pour votre précieux temps. J'en suis vraiment honorée, et j'ose vous souhaiter bonne écoute sur les ondes de la radio Gospel, s'il y a lieu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13960 Alors, merci, et je vous dis : A p'luch!

LISTNUM 1 \l 13961 M. JOLY : Merci, Cathy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13962 Pour terminer, vous allez entendre notre consultant en radio, Michel Mathieu, qui va nous rappeler les principaux éléments de notre projet d'une radio de musique chrétienne contemporaine pour Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13963 M. MATHIEU : Je vous remercie. Je suis toujours sous serment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13964 Je vais abréger, parce que je pense que, dans le temps, on est un petit peu serré. Alors, je vais aller quand même vite.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13965 Juste faire une petite correction. Dans l'avis public, vous avez mentionné que la station CKZW demandait une licence de jour et de nuit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13966 Une petite coquille là, c'est que, dans un premier temps, on demande une licence de jour seulement parce qu'on est omnidirectionnel, mais je vous garantis, et monsieur Joly va le confirmer, qu'on s'engage, dans un très bref délai, même il est possible que si vous nous donnez une licence, avant d'aller en ondes, pendant qu'on est en train de construire, on va vous demander la permission d'aller directionnel et d'aller 24 heures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13967 C'est tout simplement parce que quand on a commencé, vous savez qu'on a eu, malheureusement, un refus. A l'époque, il y avait certaines contraintes financières, qui ont été réglées. Il y a au dossier... d'ailleurs, si vous permettez, je vais aller dans mon texte parce que je suis un petit peu mélangé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13968 Or, tout simplement pour vous dire que moi, on m'a donné un mandat clair. J'ai travaillé avec monsieur McCalley (ph), qui est un ingénieur que vous connaissez sûrement. On a fait une étude technique. On a regardé les coûts, le meilleur coût d'implantation d'opération, compte tenu des objectifs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13969 Il s'agissait d'être efficace, mais il s'agissait d'une chose : c'est très important pour une radio Gospel, de par sa spécificité, de rejoindre un grand nombre de personnes. Automatiquement, la fréquence FM était rejetée, et des stations AM, comme la plupart du temps je fais, 1 000 watts, ça ne donnait pas le résultat.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13970 On a pris la meilleure fréquence qui reste à Montréal de disponible, le 650, et on s'engage à très bien l'exploiter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13971 Dans un premier temps, 5 800 watts omni, parce qu'on est restreint à ça par contrainte américaine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13972 Dans un deuxième temps, trois tours de diffusion omnidirectionnelle, 10 000 watts de jour. L'entente internationale parle de 3 000 watts de nuit, mais je crois qu'on peut améliorer ça à 4 000‑5 000 watts. On a une contrainte à Terre‑Neuve.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13973 Alors, c'est à peu près ça, je pense. Vous avez mon texte, vous pouvez le lire. On est dans le timing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13974 Alors, je pense, mesdames, messieurs, qu'on va faire une très bonne utilisation d'une fréquence qui est non réclamée, le 650. Ça va permettre à Communications Média Évangélique d'offrir son service, un service de plus haute qualité.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13975 Puis quant à la qualité sonore du AM, si vous êtes à Montréal, je vous invite à écouter le 1650 Radio Shalom. J'ai des e‑mail ‑‑ si vous me le demandez, je pense qu'ils sont à mon hôtel, je pourrais vous les apporter demain ‑‑ de gens qui nous félicitent pour la qualité sonore, O.K.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13976 Alors, moi, les ondes AM, je suis bien d'accord que le FM, en théorie, est supérieur, mais je vous dirais quelque chose, il y a encore quelque chose de bon à faire avec un bon émetteur AM, à condition d'avoir le bon équipement et qui soit bien réglé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13977 Monsieur Joly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13978 M. JOLY : Merci beaucoup, Michel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13979 Mon équipe et moi, maintenant, nous sommes à votre disposition pour répondre aux questions que vous voudrez bien nous poser.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13980 LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci, Monsieur Joly. Merci, Madame, pour votre présentation pleine d'humour et de chaleur. C'est bien apprécié.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13981 Monsieur Joly... et puis je vais m'adresser à vous, puis peut‑être que vous pourrez référer les questions à un ou l'autre de vos collègues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13982 M. JOLY : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13983 LE PRÉSIDENT : Mes premières questions vont être sur votre programmation, et je vais commencer peut‑être par le genre musical que vous proposez, puis j'aimerais que vous me décriviez dans vos propres mots ce que vous entendez par le son Gospel du Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13984 M. JOLY : Bien, c'est parce qu'il y a tellement d'artistes québécois qu'on peut se permettre de dire ça, n'est‑ce pas, en partant. Donc, c'est pour ça qu'on se classifie comme étant le son Gospel du Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13985 Mais je peux demander aussi à Peter d'élaborer davantage au sujet des artistes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13986 Juste peut‑être me servir de votre question pour souligner quelque chose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13987 Nous travaillons très fort depuis 2003 à implanter la radio Gospel, mais pas seulement ça. On parle beaucoup ces temps‑ci de la relève. On parle beaucoup du thème...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13988 M. SHANNON : D'artistes émergents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13989 M. JOLY : ‑‑ d'émergence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13990 Bon, nous, on s'est mis à cour tout de suite de s'occuper justement des artistes émergents. Une des premières choses qu'on a fait, c'est on a fait un CD Gospel d'artistes émergents. On appelle ça CKCW, Le Son Gospel du Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13991 Ce sont donc tous des artistes québécois qui sont là‑dessus, des gens inconnus, la plupart inconnu, dont Andréanne Lafleur, qui était inconnue à ce moment‑là quand nous avons préparé cette compilation‑là, elle n'avait pas fait de CD, rien.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13992 Puis Peter peut parler justement du cas d'Andréanne Lafleur depuis sa participation avec nous lors de Soirée Gospel, parce qu'on a présenté une soirée Gospel, spectacles et tout ça, toujours dans le contexte de la radio Gospel. Même si on n'est pas en ondes, on agit comme si on était en ondes, nous autres là, depuis plusieurs années.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13993 Alors, Peter peut nous expliquer ce qui est arrivé à Andréanne Lafleur.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13994 M. SHANNON : Oui, bien, Andréanne, depuis le temps a fait un CD qui a gagné Covenant Awards of Gospel Music Association. En ce moment, elle est en France. Naturellement, elle fait des tournées ici. Elle va à certains endroits, certaines églises, certaines places où il y a une plate‑forme.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13995 D'ailleurs, il y a au‑dessus, je crois, de 400‑500 églises au Québec, évangéliques, pour ceux qui ne le savent pas là. Il y en a bien qui ne savent pas qu'à Montréal, dans la région, il y en a tant que ça. C'est incroyable. C'est un boom inconcevable. Il faut que vous venez là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13996 Et puis c'est ça, elle est en France et puis son tremplin est parti.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13997 Pour les styles, pour vous répondre, Monsieur le commissaire, il y en a de toutes les sortes. C'est ce qui est fantastique avec une musique qu'on peut catégoriser comme Gospel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13998 Quand on parle de Gospel, il y a toujours ces barèmes serrés quand on parle d'Américains, quand on parle de Noirs et on parle de chorales, mais c'est bien plus que ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13999 Il y a du Hip hop. Il y a du Country Gospel. Country Gospel States, il y en a aussi, mais il y en a ici aussi. Il y a du Country Gospel. Il y a du Rock Gospel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14000 Surtout pour les jeunes, quand on entend un Hip‑hop Gospel qui dit... au lieu de dire, prends un gun, gangster là, puis va tuer l'autre à côté, quand on entend un Hip‑hop chrétien, si on veut, ou de lumière, si on veut, qui dit, à la place, aides ton voisin, c'est toute une différence. Puis il y en a comme ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14001 Je vais nommer des noms ‑‑ c'est des noms anglais, pareil, des fois qu'ils se donnent là, même si c'est francophone ‑‑ Upper Ground... En tout cas, je ne me rappelle plus de tous les noms vite, je pourrais vous les retrouver. Mais moi, j'en connais au moins, moi‑même, 50 personnellement, parce que ça fait 12 ans que je joue avec tout le monde, puis que j'ai la chance de côtoyer ces gens‑là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14002 M. JOLY : Musique urbaine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14003 M. SHANNON : Urbain. En tout cas, de tout, de tout.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14004 Il y a du Classique même. Il y a des orchestres classiques.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14005 Il y a du Jazz. Jacobson Telfort avec Jacques... c'est quoi son nom, un grand batteur qui est avec nous asteur, puis Peter Wiseman (ph) sur le Sax. Ils viennent de faire un album Jazz ‑‑ Jacques Masson, un batteur extraordinaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14006 En tout cas, s'il y en a qui connaissent un peu les musiciens là, moi, je les connais tous dans le monde séculier aussi là. Il y a tout un monde, tout un univers à découvrir. Moi, j'ai été estomaqué quand j'ai découvert ça. Puis il faut le partager.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14007 M. JOLY : Et l'an dernier, quand on espérait avoir notre 650, on avait déjà une entente avec La Ronde pour faire deux spectacles à La Ronde.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14008 En plus, cette année, il y a la Relève Gospel. Un des membres associés avec nous autres, M. Roger Lauzon, s'implique actuellement à mettre sur pied des concours. Alors, on appelle ça la Relève Gospel. La finale a lieu le 8 juin à Montréal, et ça, c'est à la Place des Arts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14009 M. SHANNON : La petite salle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14010 M. JOLY : La petite salle à la Place des Arts. Quand on aura notre 650, on pourra faire ça dans la grande salle là. Pour le moment, on se contente de la petite salle parce qu'on n'a pas beaucoup d'envergure là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14011 Mais vous savez où est‑ce qu'on s'en va, nous autres là, c'est l'industrie du Gospel, puis on veut la développer cette industrie‑là au Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14012 LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame Cram et moi avons siégé à plusieurs audiences, notamment, en Alberta, où on a entendu des projets de radio Gospel, et, en général, on nous les décrit comme de deux types : le Gospel traditionnel et le Gospel contemporain.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14013 Votre projet de station, est‑ce que c'est pour un ou les deux types?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14014 M. JOLY : Avant tout, contemporain. C'est parce que c'est comme dire du Country, du Classique. C'est du Gospel. C'est le terme facile à comprendre pour tout le monde, parce que c'est le terme qui est utilisé en milieu québécois.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14015 Alors, quand on dit Gospel, on sait de quoi on parle à ce moment‑là. Mais c'est de la musique chrétienne contemporaine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14016 LE PRÉSIDENT : Donc, vous parlez de la musique contemporaine, de la musique Rock...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14017 M. JOLY : Moderne.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14018 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...et de la musique...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14019 M. JOLY : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14020 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...dans des formats de musique de type Rock. En fait, vous avec mentionné le Hip‑hop.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14021 M. JOLY : C'est ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14022 Cathy veut dire...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14023 MME RENZELLA : En fait, je crois, la seule différence, c'est que c'est tous les genres de musique. Le fait qu'il y ait le mot * Gospel +, c'est le message, dans le fond, qui change. C'est un message plus de bonnes valeurs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14024 Comme l'exemple que Peter Shannon donnait tout à l'heure, au lieu d'encourager les jeunes à faire des choses atroces, bien, on va les encourager à faire des bonnes choses, puis de faire une différence positive dans la société.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14025 Ça fait que je crois que c'est plus ça. Donc, il y a tous les genres de musique, c'est le message qui est différent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14026 LE PRÉSIDENT : Mais avez‑vous l'intention de diffuser du Gospel traditionnel?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14027 M. JOLY : Il y en a aussi, hein. Des chorales, ça, c'est automatique. Elles sont traditionnelles, les grosses chorales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14028 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14029 M. JOLY : Puis ça, c'est à la mode actuellement là, hein. Alors, c'est ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14030 LE PRÉSIDENT : Parce que les radiodiffuseurs qu'on a rencontré nous disent que l'AM est parfait pour le Gospel traditionnel, et le FM est très bon pour le Gospel contemporain.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14031 Or, par rapport à ces groupes qui exploitent déjà des stations qui sont bien implantées, des groupes importants comme Touch Canada, par exemple, pour en nommer un qui exploite des stations AM et FM, où vous situez‑vous dans ce...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14032 Monsieur Mathieu, je pense que j'aimerais avoir la réponse de monsieur Joly parce que vous êtes leur conseiller, et c'est eux qui vont opérer la station. Donc, c'est leur définition à eux de la musique Gospel que je veux entendre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14033 M. JOLY : Bien, on fait la comparaison AM/FM. C'est certain que s'il y avait une belle fréquence FM à Montréal, on irait prendre cette fréquence FM là à Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14034 Mais là, on se retrouve avec quelque chose qui ressemble à un trou dans le milieu de l'île là, sur le 106,3, puis ça ne ressemble pas pantoute à ce qu'on veut nous autres là. Ça fait que la meilleure solution, c'est d'aller sur une belle fréquence AM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14035 Puis les gens... des gens ont dit, il me semble c'est moins bon. C'est pas compliqué, allez acheter le CD. C'est là pour ça la radio, c'est pour que les gens... faire vivre une industrie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14036 Il me semble, hein. Vous êtes d'accord avec moi?

‑‑‑ Rires / Laughter

LISTNUM 1 \l 14037 LE PRÉSIDENT : C'est ce que les producteurs disent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14038 M. JOLY : C'est ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14039 LE PRÉSIDENT : Ce n'est pas le CRTC qui le dit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14040 Mais comment différencier‑vous la musique Gospel de ce que vous appelez vous‑même dans votre mémoire la musique chrétienne contemporaine?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14041 M. JOLY : C'est parce que vous, vous faites une différence entre les deux, puis moi...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14042 LE PRÉSIDENT : Bien, moi, c'est parce que j'ai lu dans votre mémoire, dans votre Annexe A, 1.1...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14043 M. JOLY : O.K. Je vais laisser Peter...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14044 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...qui s'appelle, * Pourquoi la radio Gospel à Montréal +, et vous parlez de musique Gospel, mais vous parlez aussi de musique chrétienne contemporaine, et puis j'essaie de...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14045 M. JOLY : C'est ça. C'est juste l'expression comme telle qu'on utilise en français. On dit Gospel. Comme dans le Country, j'imagine, il y a divers genres aussi. Alors, c'est comme si le mot * musique chrétienne contemporaine + était remplacé tout simplement par le mot * Gospel +.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14046 M. SHANNON : Oui, puis c'est juste pour ne pas porter à confusion, malgré que ça semble faire le contraire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14047 Si on dit juste * chrétienne contemporaine +, on laisse présavoir que tu n'as pas de Black, puis tu n'as pas de Hip‑hop, puis tu n'as pas... Puis si tu dis juste * Gospel +, ça laisse présavoir que c'est juste Noir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14048 Ça fait qu'on dit Gospel et musique contemporaine pour englober le tout. Tu as le droit de faire n'importe quoi, ni plus ni moins. On ne veut pas se limiter à juste des chorales ou bien juste un style en tant que tel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14049 M. JOLY : Quand ils organisent des activités au Québec, Gospel, c'est moderne, c'est tout ce qui touche les artistes d'aujourd'hui, parce qu'il y a beaucoup de spectacles à Montréal Gospel. Alors, c'est ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14050 Alors, ça s'appelle Gospel, puis ça enveloppe tout ce qui touche la musique chrétienne contemporaine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14051 LE PRÉSIDENT : Et pour vous, si je prends les catégories réglementaires du CRTC, la musique Gospel, c'est une musique de Catégorie contemporaine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14052 M. JOLY : Trois, oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14053 LE PRÉSIDENT : C'est une musique de Catégorie 3 ou...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14054 M. JOLY : Vous êtes dans le 35, vous là? C'est le 35, c'est ça?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14055 LE PRÉSIDENT : Dans la question...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14056 M. JOLY : Non, mais il me semble c'est 35 là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14057 LE PRÉSIDENT : Bien, il y a la Catégorie 2...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14058 M. JOLY : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14059 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...puis il y a la Catégorie 3.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14060 M. JOLY : Bien, habituellement, c'est dans la Catégorie 3, mais ça arrive qu'il y en a tombe dans le 2 quand ils deviennent des vedettes là...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14061 LE PRÉSIDENT : Pas nécessairement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14062 M. JOLY : ...qu'ils vendent des gros succès.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14063 LE PRÉSIDENT : Non, pas nécessairement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14064 M. JOLY : Non.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14065 LE PRÉSIDENT : C'est parce que dans la Catégorie 2, il y a une sous‑catégorie qui est... Il y a des sous‑catégories dans la Catégorie 2 là...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14066 M. JOLY : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14067 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...mais il y a des sous‑catégories aussi dans la Catégorie 3, et il y a une sous‑catégorie qui est dite de musique religieuse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14068 M. JOLY : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14069 LE PRÉSIDENT : Où vous situez‑vous par rapport à...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14070 M. JOLY : Si je me souviens bien, je pense c'est 35 pour la catégorie musique chrétienne contemporaine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14071 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14072 M. JOLY : Je me trompe‑tu?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14073 LE PRÉSIDENT : Non, non, c'est ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14074 M. JOLY : Whew! j'ai gagné.

‑‑‑ Rires / Laughter

LISTNUM 1 \l 14075 M. JOLY : Alors, c'est * religieux non classique + le terme que vous utilisez.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14076 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui, c'est ça, effectivement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14077 M. JOLY : Une chance que Michel est là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14078 LE PRÉSIDENT : Donc vous, votre projet, c'est un projet de musique religieuse non classique...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14079 M. JOLY : C'est ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14080 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...pour lequel vous vous engagez à diffuser 25 pour cent de contenu canadien?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14081 M. JOLY : Oui, c'est ça, 25 pour cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14082 LE PRÉSIDENT : Cependant, au niveau du contenu francophone, vous...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14083 M. JOLY : C'est à 65 pour cent et plus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14084 LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous adhérez à la politique du Conseil?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14085 M. JOLY : Pas de problème.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14086 LE PRÉSIDENT : Pas de problème de ce côté‑là?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14087 M. JOLY : Non. Juste à écouter notre site internet, c'est 100 pour cent français.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14088 LE PRÉSIDENT : Mais pour les fins de... Mais, écoutez, si vous me dites 100 pour cent français, êtes‑vous prêt à prendre une condition de licence que ça sera 100 pour cent français?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14089 M. JOLY : Non, c'est parce que si on joue avec le terme * émergent +, j'ai de la misère à saisir le sens du mot * émergent + actuellement, puis il y a pas mal de monde qui ont de la misère à saisir le sens. C'est pour ça qu'on se laisse une marge de manouvre pour bien comprendre...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14090 C'est parce que, pour le moment, ils vont tous être émergents, mais dans un an, ils ne seront plus émergents. Alors, combien va‑t‑il y avoir d'artistes, de nouveau artistes émergents francophones, je ne peux pas vous le dire là, on ne connaît pas l'avenir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14091 Alors, on se laisse une marge de manouvre pour donner... Il y a des artistes émergents anglophones au Canada aussi, hein?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14092 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui, oui, absolument.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14093 M. JOLY : Bon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14094 LE PRÉSIDENT : Absolument, puis il y en a dans toutes les catégories, parce qu'il y a un renouvellement des artistes à chaque année. Ils font des cycles, évidemment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14095 Malheureusement, il y a des gens qui disparaissent. Il y a des gens qui, après avoir connu le succès, décident qu'on garde leur renommée en mémoire, et ils le font plus rapidement. D'autres...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14096 M. JOLY : Je vais vous donner des noms. Jenny Rock, Caro, ce sont des artistes Gospel, musique chrétienne contemporaine. Julie Harel. Vous connaissez ces gens‑là. Mario Pelchat.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14097 LE PRÉSIDENT : Ils ne sont pas exclusifs au genre. Ils peuvent faire différents genres de musique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14098 M. JOLY : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14099 LE PRÉSIDENT : Parce que Mario Pelchat, il fait tous les genres de musique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14100 M. JOLY : Alors, qu'est‑ce que je fais avec lui, est‑ce que je peux le passer quand même?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14101 LE PRÉSIDENT : Bien ça, c'est à vous à le déterminer.

‑‑‑ Rires / Laughter

LISTNUM 1 \l 14102 LE PRÉSIDENT : Si je comprends bien... Quel est votre engagement par rapport, effectivement, à la musique de Catégorie...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14103 M. JOLY : C'est total musique chrétienne contemporaine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14104 LE PRÉSIDENT : Donc, vous ne donnez pas de flexibilité...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14105 M. JOLY : Bien, le 5 pour cent, de sagesse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14106 LE PRÉSIDENT : Si le Conseil arrivait à la conclusion que Mario Pelchat n'est pas de la musique...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14107 M. JOLY : On l'exclut.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14108 LE PRÉSIDENT : Donc, vous seriez en défaut.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14109 M. MATHIEU : Permettez‑moi. J'ai travaillé sur la demande avec monsieur Joly. Je me rappelle très bien. C'est bien 5 pour cent, je crois, de pouvoir aller dans la Catégorie 2 au cas où il y aurait des cas ombrageux.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14110 On s'engage par condition de licence... je n'ai pas les chiffres devant moi, mais je peux les chercher. Je pense c'est... 90 ou 95 pour cent, c'est Catégorie 3.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14111 M. JOLY : 95 pour cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14112 M. MATHIEU : Bon, alors, c'est 95 pour cent Catégorie 3...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14113 M. JOLY : Minimum.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14114 M. MATHIEU : ...minimum. Il y a un 5 pour cent de latitude justement à cause des artistes comme Jenny Rock, Mario Pelchat, et caetera, pour éviter les malentendus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14115 LE PRÉSIDENT : En fait, c'est bel et bien 10 pour cent là, je l'ai dans mes notes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14116 M. JOLY : J'étais sûr que c'est 95, moi là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14117 LE PRÉSIDENT : Non, non, c'est 90 dans mes notes que j'ai prises de votre mémoire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14118 M. MATHIEU : Mais on s'entend que si on a 90 pour cent de musique de Catégorie 3, et comme on vous dit, la plupart des semaines, c'est 100 pour cent là, c'est juste pour...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14119 M. JOLY : Je ne suis pas d'accord avec nous. Nous désirons, donc, consacrer au moins 95 pour cent de notre programmation musicale à la musique chrétienne contemporaine. C'est dans mes documents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14120 LE PRÉSIDENT : Bien, dans votre... si je peux le trouver, parce que, ailleurs, vous...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14121 Donc, on est confronté à une double affirmation, parce que, dans votre mémoire, je l'ai...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14122 M. MATHIEU : Il me semble, André, qu'effectivement, on l'avait mis à 95.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14123 M. JOLY : C'est ça, 95.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14124 Puis même, vous avez posé une question pour les lacunes...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14125 CONSEILLER FRENCH : Réglons pour 95.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14126 LE PRÉSIDENT : Hein?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14127 CONSEILLER FRENCH : Réglons pour 95.

‑‑‑ Rires / Laughter

LISTNUM 1 \l 14128 LE PRÉSIDENT : On va régler pour 95, effectivement. On ne perdra pas notre temps.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14129 Dans votre projet, vous dites que vous aurez neuf heures d'information par semaine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14130 M. JOLY : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14131 LE PRÉSIDENT : Quelle est la portion qui sera de nouvelles locales et régionales et nationales et internationales, est‑ce que vous avez établi ça?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14132 M. JOLY : Vous savez que j'ai passé ma vie dans l'information, hein.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14133 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14134 M. JOLY : Ça dépend toujours qu'est ce qu'il y a au quotidien d'important.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14135 Mais c'est certain, les nouvelles locales, c'est Montréal, le Québec, le Canada. Alors, locale, bien entendu, ça va être qu'est‑ce qui se passe à Montréal, dans la région de Montréal. On donne priorité à Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14136 Il faut bien comprendre que notre station fonctionne comme n'importe quelle station de radio, a une contenu comme n'importe quelle station de radio commerciale, mais la différence, c'est qu'au lieu d'être de la musique, je ne sais pas, moi, quel type, Rock ou Country, n'importe quoi, c'est de la musique chrétienne contemporaine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14137 Mais les animateurs vont faire exactement la même chose que n'importe quelle station commerciale. Ils vont avoir la météo, le sport, les nouvelles, la même manière, et c'est selon les... tu sais, s'il arrive quelque chose en Europe de dramatique, c'est ça qui va être en priorité aux nouvelles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14138 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui. Et vous allez avoir combien d'employés à votre service de nouvelles?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14139 M. JOLY : Ce ne sera pas comme Astral ou Corus en partant, mais on va avoir deux journalistes à plein temps sur semaine, puis un journaliste à temps partiel la fin de semaine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14140 Alors, j'ai indiqué ça ici, les détails. Alors, deux journalistes/animateurs à temps plein, un journaliste/animateur à temps partiel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14141 LE PRÉSIDENT : Donc, ça veut dire qu'ils ont double emploi, ils font...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14142 M. JOLY : Ce sont des gens qui ont la capacité d'être journaliste et animateur.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14143 LE PRÉSIDENT : Et animateur de quelle sorte de programmation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14144 M. JOLY : Surtout d'affaires publiques, tout ce qui touche l'actualité, parce qu'il y a des émissions d'inscrit à l'horaire en ce sens‑là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14145 LE PRÉSIDENT : Donc, des contenus verbaux?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14146 M. JOLY : Oui, et on parle de ce qui touche les gens au quotidien.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14147 LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous avez combien d'heures par semaine d'émissions essentiellement à contenu verbal?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14148 M. JOLY : Bien, le midi, on a un bulletin majeur où on va avoir des entrevues en profondeur avec des gens qui font l'actualité, midi à 12 h 30.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14149 12 h 30 à 1 h 30, on ouvre les lignes. On demande aux gens de commenter. On peut avoir des experts pour parler des sujets qui touchent monsieur et madame tout le monde, la même chose que toutes les stations de radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14150 LE PRÉSIDENT : Est‑ce que vous avez en place une politique sur les tribunes téléphoniques?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14151 M. JOLY : Oui. Vous avez remarqué, il y un code de...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14152 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui, oui, j'ai vu que vous aviez plusieurs codes...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14153 M. JOLY : Très sévères.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14154 LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous aviez déposé avec votre demande, effectivement...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14155 M. JOLY : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14156 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...plusieurs codes, dont les pages sont toutes paraphées.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14157 Donc, si je comprends bien, c'est que vous acceptez, mutandis mutandis, ce qui est écrit à chacune de ces pages‑là?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14158 M. JOLY : On a vécu dans un milieu où c'était discipliné, hein, puis il y avait une rigueur. Alors, moi, je m'attends à ce que ça soit la même chose dans notre station de radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14159 LE PRÉSIDENT : Maintenant, au niveau de l'information, comment vous allez procéder pour la cueillette de l'information?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14160 M. JOLY : Bien, c'est certain qu'au début, ça va être surtout une couverture en suivant ce qui se passe... Un des aspects qui a évolué au niveau du journalisme, c'est qu'il y a beaucoup de conférences de presse qui se font par téléphone.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14161 Même à Montréal, dans les stations majeures de Montréal, beaucoup de journalistes vont en ondes. Entre les mises en ondes, ils vont faire des appels, enregistrent une entrevue avec la personne qui était au cour d'une conférence de presse, ou encore invitent la personne qui a annoncé un événement particulier une journée. On l'invite à venir en ondes puis expliquer un peu ce qu'ils vont faire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14162 C'est certain qu'au début, on n'aura pas la flexibilité de déplacer des journalistes sur la route, puis avoir des beaux micros Gospel 650 là. On aimerait bien ça, en partant là, avoir cette flexibilité là, mais c'est certain qu'il faut être sage et y aller selon les capacités financières qui viendront ‑‑ avec une belle unité mobile, bien entendu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14163 LE PRÉSIDENT : Et vous aurez des nouvelles de quelle heure à quelle heure du lundi au vendredi?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14164 M. JOLY : J'ai mon horaire ici, si je peux retrouver ma page.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14165 Alors, du lundi au vendredi, entre 6 h 00 et 10 h 00 du matin, on aura un bulletin de nouvelles de cinq minutes à l'heure et de trois minutes à la demi‑heure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14166 Du lundi au vendredi, entre midi et 12 h 30, 30 minutes d'information et d'entrevues touchant l'actualité.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14167 Toujours du lundi au vendredi, 14 h 00 à 17 h 00, un bulletin de nouvelles de cinq minutes à l'heure et de trois minutes à la demi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14168 Samedi de 6 h 00 à 10 h 00 et de midi à 17 h 00, un bulletin de cinq minutes à l'heure et de trois minutes à la demi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14169 Le dimanche entre midi et 17 h 00, un bulletin de cinq minutes à l'heure et de trois minutes à la demi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14170 Donc, plus de neuf heures consacrées aux bulletins d'information chaque semaine. Donc, ça représente plus de 7 pour cent des 126 heures de programmation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14171 Et de plus, une ligne ouverte du lundi au vendredi de 12 h 30 à 13 h 30 pour permettre à nos auditeurs de s'exprimer sur des divers sujets d'actualité ou qui sont de leur intérêt.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14172 Ça représente, donc, un total de cinq heures ou plus de 4 pour cent des 126 heures de programmation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14173 LE PRÉSIDENT : Maintenant, je vois que vous avez prévu des chroniques...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14174 M. JOLY : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14175 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...sur différents thèmes : le jardinage, les questions municipales, la santé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14176 Ça va totaliser combien de temps ces chroniques‑là?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14177 M. JOLY : Oh! là, vous m'en posez une bonne, là. Je ne l'avais pas calculé. Comment est‑ce qu'on peut évaluer ça en une semaine? Ça, c'est entre 9 h 00 et midi, en café‑brioche, où on va avoir de divers sujets qui vont intéresser tout le monde. Bon, c'est entre 9 h 00 et midi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14178 LE PRÉSIDENT : Mais entre 9 h 00 et midi, vous allez avoir de la musique aussi?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14179 M. JOLY : Oui, oui, de la musique, puis avec...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14180 LE PRÉSIDENT : O.K. Quelle portion va être du contenu verbal? Parce que j'essaie de saisir...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14181 M. JOLY : Bloc de quatre minutes à peu près...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14182 LE PRÉSIDENT : J'essaie de voir quelle quantité de continue verbal vous allez avoir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14183 M. JOLY : O.K.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14184 LE PRÉSIDENT : Bon, il y a 126 heures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14185 M. JOLY : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14186 LE PRÉSIDENT : Là, on en a identifié neuf, on en a identifié cinq autres, on est...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14187 M. JOLY : Ça fait 14.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14188 LE PRÉSIDENT : Combien d'autres heures ou de minutes...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14189 M. JOLY : Ça, c'est du contenu à l'intérieur des émissions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14190 M. MATHIEU : Tout ce qui est verbal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14191 M. JOLY : Tout ce qui est verbal, mais il y a toujours du verbal. Quand tu reçois un invité, c'est du verbal. Quand tu parles de comment faire pousser des carottes, ça aussi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14192 LE PRÉSIDENT : C'est parce que nous, on a des grilles d'analyse...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14193 M. JOLY :

LISTNUM 1 \l 14194 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...et puis, à partir de nos grilles d'analyse, on essaie de voir quelle est la part de la station à la communauté, autre que de lui faire connaître des oeuvres musicales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14195 M. JOLY : C'est ça. De toute façon, nous, ce qu'on a prévu dans notre programmation, c'est d'avoir plus de musique que de parlotte. Ça, c'est clair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14196 Mais il va y avoir des interventions, des sujets intéressants, des choses qui vont intéresser tout le monde là, hein, et c'est pour ça que c'est inclut, ça habille nos émissions. Ce n'est pas juste de la musique, mais c'est aussi une présence, c'est aussi du contenu sur divers sujets intéressants. Ça peut être les voyages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14197 LE PRÉSIDENT : Allez‑vous avoir des émissions à caractère religieux?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14198 M. JOLY : Oui, il y en a de prévues. On a prévu un maximum de 25 heures d'émissions religieuses payées pour répondre au besoin, parce qu'il y a un paquet de monde qui, actuellement, ils sont de l'autre bord de la ligne américaine, puis ils achètent du temps américain avec des piastres américaines.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14199 Puis là, on nous a demandé, vous autres, est‑ce que vous seriez prêts à rapatrier ces gens‑là? Bien, j'ai dit, on va ouvrir une fenêtre, une certaine fenêtre, pour ces gens‑là. Puis on a prévu en fin de journée, 17 h 00 à 20 h 00.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14200 LE PRÉSIDENT : 17 h 00 à 20 h 00?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14201 M. JOLY : 17 h 00 à 20 h 00.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14202 LE PRÉSIDENT : Ça donne trois heures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14203 M. JOLY : Oui, 15 heures par semaine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14204 LE PRÉSIDENT : C'est du lundi au vendredi?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14205 M. JOLY : Oui, c'est ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14206 LE PRÉSIDENT : Mais est‑ce que vous allez vous‑même produire des émissions...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14207 M. JOLY : Non, ce n'est pas à nous... ce n'est pas notre rôle de faire des émissions religieuses.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14208 LE PRÉSIDENT : Quel mécanisme est‑ce que vous allez avoir en place pour vous assurer que ces émissions‑là à caractère religieux rencontrent la politique...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14209 M. JOLY : On a établi qu'ils vont signer... voyez‑vous, code d'éthique d'émission religieuse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14210 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14211 M. JOLY : Je ne sais pas si vous avez eu dans la documentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14212 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui, oui. Oui, oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14213 M. JOLY : Ils vont être obligés de signer, et s'ils ne respectent pas les lignes de conduite ‑‑ bien, c'est dans le contrat, hein ‑‑ alors, le contrat, il ne dure pas longtemps.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14214 LE PRÉSIDENT : Ça, c'est après. Moi, ce que je vous demande, c'est avant. Allez‑vous avoir un système qui fait que vous allez... quelqu'un va écouter les rubans avant de les mettre en ondes?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14215 M. JOLY : Oui, bien, c'est ça. Ça va tout être enregistré avant. D'ailleurs, je pense que la plupart des stations de radio je l'espère, en tout cas écoutent les émissions qui vont aller en ondes avant de les lancer en ondes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14216 LE PRÉSIDENT : C'est ce que vous avez l'intention de faire?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14217 M. JOLY : C'est ce qu'on va faire, on va faire l'écoute. On va s'assurer que le contenu est acceptable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14218 LE PRÉSIDENT : Maintenant, dans ces émissions‑là, généralement...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14219 J'ai vu que dans vos projections financières, vous prévoyez des revenus de dons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14220 M. JOLY : Ça, on l'a mis, mais en réalité, je ne pense pas que ça fasse fureur, ces choses‑là. De toute façon, on l'a mis, mais ce n'est pas là qu'on met l'emphase.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14221 LE PRÉSIDENT : Mais c'est parce que s'il n'est plus, ça change...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14222 M. JOLY : Bien, il y en a des gens qui font...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14223 LE PRÉSIDENT : Ça change vos états financiers là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14224 M. JOLY : Oui, oui. Mais on a calculé qu'il y a des gens qui vont nous faire des cadeaux parce que c'est une station qui parle de Dieu, puis on s'attend à avoir des cadeaux.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14225 LE PRÉSIDENT : Donc, c'est parce que vous allez solliciter?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14226 M. JOLY : Non, on ne cherche pas à solliciter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14227 LE PRÉSIDENT : Mais dans les émissions que vous allez vendre à des groupes religieux, il y a souvent des sollicitations de dons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14228 M. JOLY : Ils ne sont pas supposés de solliciter à la fin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14229 LE PRÉSIDENT : Hein?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14230 M. JOLY : Ils ne sont pas supposés de solliciter à la fin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14231 LE PRÉSIDENT : Bien, il y en a qui ne sollicitent pas juste à la fin, ils sollicitent pendant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14232 M. JOLY : On ne permettra pas qu'ils sollicitent pendant ou après ou avant, c'est pas compliqué.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14233 Il y a mon frère qui spécialise dans les émissions de radio religieuses. Je peux vous le mentionner, bon. Il y en a peut‑être qui le connaissent, * A travers la Bible +, * Aujourd'hui, l'Espoir +, ces choses‑là. Il s'appelle Réjean Joly, et eux ne sollicitent jamais les auditeurs pour de l'argent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14234 LE PRÉSIDENT : Il se finance comment?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14235 M. JOLY : Ah!

LISTNUM 1 \l 14236 M. MATHIEU : Est‑ce que vous me permettez de dire un petit mot parce que j'ai d'autres expériences avec d'autres stations, et la station américaine dont il a été question, ça fait 21 ans que je suis impliqué là‑dedans.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14237 Quand on regarde les autres dons, à 15 000 la première année, à 17 000 la deuxième, ces gens‑là ont des croyances, et on n'a pas besoin de lancer des messages en ondes. Il va se passer des choses. Les gens vont venir les offrir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14238 Je suis en train de monter une radio à Montréal qui s'appelle Radio Shalom. Je suis en train de travailler dans la console, il arrive du monde de nationalité juive qui m'offre carrément de l'argent. Pas de farce, je suis assermenté là. Alors, évidemment, je les ai mis en contact avec le directeur de la station de radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14239 J'ai un monsieur très bien connu, que vous connaissez peut‑être, de nationalité juive qui est radio amateur, qui m'a intercepté l'autre jour sur les ondes de la radio pour me dire, aye, c'est toi qui as monté Radio Shalom, je veux rencontrer les gens, moi, je veux faire un don.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14240 Alors, c'est comme ça que ça marche. Ce n'est pas des grosses sommes, mais moi, je suis convaincu qu'André va rencontrer ses objectifs là‑dedans. Il y a des choses qui peuvent se passer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14241 On peut vendre des cartes du club des amis de radio Gospel, tu sais. Il y a un paquet de choses qui peuvent se faire là‑dedans. Les sommes sont quand même minimes là. Ce n'est pas quelque chose qui... tu sais.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14242 Comment c'en est venu là? Je ne me rappelle pas comment est‑ce qu'on en était venu à mettre ça là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14243 LE PRÉSIDENT : Bien, c'est parce que, la portée de ma question, c'est que vous avez plusieurs codes de déontologie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14244 On a entendu, au cours des deux derniers jours... quand on a entendu le International Harvesters, ils nous ont dit qu'ils étaient membre de la Canadian Council for Christian Charities. On connaît des entreprises ‑‑ je pense au Miracle Channel qui a un code de déontologie sur la sollicitation de fonds.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14245 Ma préoccupation s'en allait directement vers votre structure de sollicitation de fonds et l'encadrement que vous étiez pour mettre à cette sollicitation. Vous me dites que vous ne ferez pas de sollicitation, mais vous anticipez que, par un mouvement spontané...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14246 M. JOLY : C'est parce qu'on remarque, au niveau des stations chrétiennes à travers le pays, ils reçoivent des dons, tout le monde. CHRI reçoit des dons. Ils reçoivent tous des dons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14247 Alors, nous, on s'attend, nous autres aussi, à ce qu'il y ait des gens qui nous fassent des cadeaux parce qu'on est en train d'aider une industrie qui n'existe pas au Québec, qu'on veut la mettre en place. Il y a des gens qui vont dire, écoutes, on voudrait bien que le Québec soit couvert de stations de radio éventuellement. Ils vont faire des dons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14248 Il y a toute sorte de raisons pourquoi les gens font des cadeaux, puis c'est pour ça qu'on a inclus cette provision‑là, cette possibilité là. Mais moi, je ne coure pas après ça non plus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14249 Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14250 MME RENZELLA : On peut, nous, les artistes, faire des concerts bénéfices, aussi. Donc ça, ça serait vraiment intéressant. Puis croyez‑moi, il y a tellement de gens qui attendent d'avoir une radio Gospel à Montréal que je pense qu'on aurait une bonne réponse à ce niveau‑là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14251 CONSEILLER FRENCH : Pouvez‑vous juste, au sujet des émissions religieuses payées, expliquer un petit peu le caractère religieux que vous attendez?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14252 Je ne sais pas si vous étiez ici, Monsieur Joly. Je pense que monsieur Mathieu était ici.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14253 J'ai une certaine curiosité sur la tradition évangélique francophone, qui me paraît, à prime abord, un petit peu contradictoire. Je suis sûr que ça existe là, mais je veux juste comprendre davantage ce que ça veut dire par rapport à nos racines francophones québécoises.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14254 M. JOLY : Mais il y a une évolution, hein, au Québec. Ce n'est plus pareil. Ça changé avec les décennies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14255 Je vais vous donner un exemple. Notre ami ici là, Peter Shannon... vas‑y, parles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14256 M. SHANNON : O.K. Moi, le dimanche, je joue de la guitare dans mon église. Il y a deux réunions à 9 h 00. On est 2 000 à 3 000 personnes à 9 h 00 à Longueuil, puis il y a 2 000 à 3 000 personnes à 11 h 00 à Longueuil. Et à 4 h 00, il y a moins 800‑900 personnes, à tous les dimanches, sans exception, à l'église Nouvelle Vie à Longueuil. L'église que supposément monsieur connaît là, ça, c'est mon église.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14257 Ça, c'est juste une église, et moi même, je vais aussi à Rodden, une autre petite place, puis il y un autre 50 personnes; Repentigny, un autre 50 personnes. Ça fait que je fais deux fois Nouvelle Vie, et le soir, à l'Institut public aussi, il y a au‑dessus de 400 élèves. C'est un boom. C'est vraiment un boom là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14258 CONSEILLER FRENCH : Monsieur Shannon, ce n'est pas ce qu'on appelait communément la tradition charismatique catholique, ça n'a rien à faire?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14259 M. SHANNON : Non, ça n'a rien à voir. Non, du tout.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14260 CONSEILLER FRENCH : D'accord.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14261 M. SHANNON : D'ailleurs, pas Nouvelle Vie, parce que, Nouvelle Vie, disons que c'est vraiment une église qui a une ouverture sur toutes les dénominations. La mienne là, je veux dire. Il y en a d'autres sortes aussi. Dans le poste de radio, toutes les dénominations sont impliquées. C'est déjà extraordinaire de voir comment ça s'est passé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14262 Même des dénominations qui ne se parlaient pas entre eux autres, juste le phénomène que nous autres, on commençait à être en place, ont commencé non seulement à se parler ensemble, mais collaborer ensemble.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14263 Puis là, on ne parle pas de différentes ethnies, on parle même de supposément la même religion, qui étaient comme, pas en chicane là, mais il y a une réconciliation qui se fait, et puis ça fait tout un mouvement de paix, d'entente.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14264 M. JOLY : J'aurais pu vous amener... j'avais pensé à le faire. Il y a un curé de Gatineau qui, lui, quand il est tombé sur notre musique sur l'internet, il l'a adopté à son église, puis ça brasse dans son église, le Gospel puis tout ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14265 Puis même, on a un article dans * Le Droit + là‑dessus, à cause que le curé de cette paroisse‑là en a parlé, puis finalement, c'est revenu à nous autres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14266 Alors, c'est une musique qui touche tout le monde. Ce n'est pas concentré à un groupe en particulier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14267 CONSEILLER FRENCH : Monsieur Joly, la question n'était pas sur la musique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14268 M. JOLY : O.K.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14269 CONSEILLER FRENCH : Vous nous avez expliqué que, dans le fond, Gospel, ce n'est pas ce qu'on comprend comme Gospel music là en anglais.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14270 M. JOLY : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14271 CONSEILLER FRENCH : C'est plutôt un indice du contenu et du traitement des thèmes...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14272 M. JOLY : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14273 CONSEILLER FRENCH : ...conceptuels, et non pas de la musique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14274 M. JOLY : O.K.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14275 CONSEILLER FRENCH : Bon. Mais ce n'est pas ça ma question. Ma question, c'était plutôt le caractère des émissions religieuses.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14276 M. JOLY : O.K.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14277 CONSEILLER FRENCH : Je pense avoir compris. Vous pouvez ajouter si vous voulez, mais je pense avoir compris.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14278 M. JOLY : As‑tu quelque chose à ajouter concernant les émissions?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14279 M. SHANNON : Non, bien moi, c'est juste au niveau de la musique tout le temps.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14280 M. JOLY : O.K.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14281 M. SHANNON : Ça fait que si votre question est répondue, c'est beau.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14282 CONSEILLER FRENCH : D'accord.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14283 LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14284 Monsieur Joly...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14285 M. JOLY : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14286 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...dans votre demande, vous parlez que vous allez mettre en place un comité de surveillance...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14287 M. JOLY : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14288 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...de l'éthique et de l'équilibre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14289 M. JOLY : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14290 LE PRÉSIDENT : Alors, je voudrais savoir comment, premièrement, les gens vont être recrutés, qui les nomme, quel sera leur rôle, combien de fois par... ils se réunissent, je suppose, à la demande?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14291 M. JOLY : Oui, c'est ça, à l'invitation. D'ailleurs, déjà, on a commencé nos contacts dans les différentes dénominations autres que chrétiennes. Puis là, peut‑être...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14292 M. MATHIEU : Bien, on a des contacts, par exemple, monsieur Lévis de Radio Shalom, par exemple, monsieur Karem de Moyen‑Orient. Moi, je suis là‑dessus. Je dois être honnête là, je ne suis pas très, très religieux, mais il y a des gens religieux là‑dessus, puis ça donne un mixte qui permet d'avoir un équilibre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14293 Alors, je n'ai pas la liste devant moi. Je ne sais pas si tu l'as, André, mais on a une liste de personnes qui forment actuellement notre comité.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14294 LE PRÉSIDENT : Dans votre demande là, vous avez quatre noms, puis il y en a deux à table là. Monsieur Joly est là comme membre et puis vous‑même, Monsieur Mathieu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14295 M. MATHIEU : Je suis conseiller en radio, je connais vos règles, alors, je pense que je peux participer à ça. Il y a d'autres personnes qui sont là‑dedans, puis ça va s'épandre là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14296 M. JOLY : Nous, on... oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14297 LE PRÉSIDENT : Ma question est, habituellement, ce genre de comités de surveillance là sont plus indépendants. La, vous êtes un comité de surveillance, vous vous surveillez vous‑même. Vous allez avoir de la difficulté à vous trouver dans l'erreur.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14298 M. MATHIEU : Oui, mais, Monsieur Arpin, moi, je suis ici à titre de conseiller. Comme vous le voyez, je conseille mes clients, je les guide à travers l'audience, j'ai participé à la demande.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14299 Moi, une fois que la station de radio est en ondes, monsieur Joly va me dire s'il y a des problèmes. J'ai accepté de faire partie de son comité, mais je suis complètement indépendant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14300 Si je vois que monsieur Joly a des émissions en ondes avec des preachers qui demandent des dons, envoies donc, je vais dire, whoa, whoa, whoa, on a un problème.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14301 Et juste si vous me permettez parce que je voulais vous dire ça tantôt, la compagnie de monsieur Joly, Communications Média Évangélique, a une licence de charité. Or, par rapport aux dons là, il a une licence... peut‑être en parler plus en détail, André.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14302 M. JOLY : C'est ça, c'est un organisme sans but lucratif, donc, qui peut recevoir les dons. Ça fait qu'on n'a pas de problème à ce niveau‑là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14303 LE PRÉSIDENT : Non, je n'ai pas pensé que vous avez des problèmes, je parlais de la sollicitation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14304 M. JOLY : On n'a pas l'intention de solliciter. Je sais qu'il y en a d'autres...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14305 LE PRÉSIDENT : Je parlais de la sollicitation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14306 M. JOLY : Je sais, Monsieur Arpin, qu'il y a des stations de radio chrétiennes contemporaines qui font de la sollicitation. Ça, je le sais.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14307 LE PRÉSIDENT : C'est pour ça que j'ai soulevé la question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14308 M. JOLY : Mais ce n'est pas dans nos visions à nous autres, dans nos idées.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14309 LE PRÉSIDENT : Les questions concernant le contenu... Je veux juste m'assurer que je...

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 14310 M. JOLY : Vous savez, du jazz, hein... j'ouvre une parenthèse. Vous savez d'où ça provient du jazz. C'est une des branches du Gospel...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14311 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14312 M. JOLY : ...de la musique Gospel. Ça vient du sud, des églises baptistes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14313 Qui oserait dire aujourd'hui que le jazz, c'est religieux?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14314 CONSEILLER FRENCH : Non, mais vous faites plutôt l'inverse. Vous faites plutôt l'inverse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14315 M. JOLY : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14316 CONSEILLER FRENCH : Vous prenez une série de traditions musicales très diverse...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14317 M. JOLY : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14318 CONSEILLER FRENCH : ...et vous vous amalgamez dans tout ça, et vous appelez ça le Gospel contemporain.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14319 M. JOLY : Oui, oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14320 CONSEILLER FRENCH : C'est correct, mais ce n'est vraiment pas la tradition musicale Gospel en tant que telle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14321 M. JOLY : L'ancienne?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14322 CONSEILLER FRENCH : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14323 M. JOLY : Bien oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14324 CONSEILLER FRENCH : L'ancienne que j'ai toujours...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14325 M. JOLY : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14326 CONSEILLER FRENCH : Jusqu'à aujourd'hui, je ne savais pas que c'était l'ancienne, je trouvais que c'était la tradition. Vous faites mon éducation musicale là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14327 M. JOLY : Bien moi, je suis rendu à 57 ans, puis moi aussi, l'ancienne, je la connais.

‑‑‑ Rires / Laughter

LISTNUM 1 \l 14328 M. JOLY : Mais aujourd'hui, il faut s'adapter aux gens d'aujourd'hui, aux besoins d'aujourd'hui, et c'est ce qu'on veut offrir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14329 M. SHANNON : Mais ça ressemble. C'est drôle à dire. Il y a beaucoup de chants modernes Gospel francophones, comme Olivier Cheuwa, exemple. Je ne sais pas si vous le connaissez. Vous ne pouvez pas le connaître.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14330 M. JOLY : Bien, non, c'est ça, il n'y a pas de station de radio en français.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14331 M. SHANNON : Si tu écoutes là, tu entends la racine Gospel. Ce n'est pas juste un genre pour mettre un... Il y en a qui peuvent penser, bon, ils donnent le nom Gospel pour passer n'importe quoi, pour passer la bible. Non, non, non, non, non, non.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14332 Si vous écoutez comme il faut avec l'oreille bien moi, je suis musicien vous allez entendre cette racine Gospel là, même dans un Country, comme Gator Boys Request. On peut quasiment... je ne sais pas comment expliquer ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14333 CONSEILLER FRENCH : Oui, mais ça dérive tout d'une tradition baptiste, église sud des États‑Unis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14334 M. SHANNON : Tout. Jerry Lee Lewis...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14335 CONSEILLER FRENCH : On est tous d'accord que la musique populaire nord‑américaine, et maintenant mondiale, dérive ultimement d'une tradition noire sud des États‑Unis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14336 M. SHANNON : Non, non, mais regardez Jerry Lee Lewis, ça vient du Gospel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14337 CONSEILLER FRENCH : C'est la même tradition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14338 M. SHANNON : C'est ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14339 CONSEILLER FRENCH : C'est ça. Alors, tout ce que je vous dis, c'est que, compte tenu que toute la musique populaire vient de ces racines‑là, après ça, vous autoriser à dire, bien, c'est tout Gospel, correct, mais il faut expliquer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14340 M. SHANNON : C'est ça. C'est ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14341 CONSEILLER FRENCH : La raison qu'on a appelé ça Bluegrass, on a appelé ça Country, on a appelé ça Delta Blues, on a appelé ça ci puis ça parce que c'était différent des racines.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14342 Alors, encore une fois, vous prenez le nom qui s'applique aux racines, vous l'appliquez à tout ce qui se passe maintenant pourvu que c'est chrétien.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14343 MR. SHANNON: It is easier in English because in English what they say is, for example, Christian Bluegrass or they will say Christian ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14344 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: I'm with you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14345 MR. SHANNON: Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14346 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: You have explained it to me. It is just that it is not evident

LISTNUM 1 \l 14347 MR. SHANNON: It's harder in French.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14348 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: ‑‑ and just because it's in French it makes it a little worse

LISTNUM 1 \l 14349 MR. SHANNON: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14350 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: ‑‑ to use the word "Gospel" ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14351 MR. SHANNON: That's it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14352 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: ‑‑ for the kind of music you are trying to talk about. I understand what it is now but it's not obvious to anyone who doesn't listen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14353 By the way, I listen to the local Christian radio station. I mean it certainly sure as heck doesn't sound like Gospel to me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14354 MR. SHANNON: But this is it, we're not like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14355 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14356 MR. SHANNON: This is complètement différent. La musique francophone ‑‑ j'aimerais ça avoir apporté toute l'affaire ‑‑ c'est complètement nouveau. Ça ressemble... est‑ce qu'il y en a qui connaissent Beaux Dommages?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14357 CONSEILLER FRENCH : Oui, oui. J'ai appris mon français avec Beaux Dommages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14358 M. SHANNON : Bon. Ça l'a une culture...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14359 CONSEILLER FRENCH : C'est pour ça que c'est tellement mauvais.

‑‑‑ Rires / Laughter

LISTNUM 1 \l 14360 M. SHANNON : Mais essayez d'imaginer une musique Gospel avec une culture québécoise. C'est merveilleux d'entendre ça. C'est vraiment nouveau. C'est vraiment beau. Puis il y en a beaucoup.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14361 CONSEILLER FRENCH : Monsieur Shannon, vous et moi, on va frustrer le président, alors, je vais vous laisser aller.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14362 M. SHANNON : Excusez‑moi. Excusez moi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14363 LE PRÉSIDENT : Monsieur Joly, mes deux dernières questions traitent un peu plus de la question technique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14364 Est‑ce que votre projet a obtenu l'autorisation d'implantation de sa structure d'antenne de la municipalité de Saint‑Eustache ou c'est Saint‑Eustache/Mirabel?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14365 M. MATHIEU : On va devoir demander une dérogation. J'ai parlé aux gens à l'époque. Ils m'ont dit : Tu n'auras pas de problème. J'ai pensé qu'on serait plus fort si on avait une licence du CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14366 C'est dans le champ, Monsieur Arpin. C'est carrément dans le champ. Alors, je ne vois vraiment pas de problème, par expérience, à obtenir ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14367 LE PRÉSIDENT : Peut‑être de la ville, mais de la Commission de Protection du Territoire agricole?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14368 M. MATHIEU : Encore là, c'est dans le champ. C'est ombrageux à savoir si on est en territoire agricole, mais pour avoir gagné ma cause au territoire agricole dans le cas de CFAV Laval, je suis très confiant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14369 Parce que ce qu'on propose, Monsieur Arpin, si vous me le permettez, ce n'est pas de mettre les 120 fils de cuivre dans la terre puis de prendre tout le terrain, c'est de mettre une base de ciment avec une tour, une fausse tour qui va avoir environ 15 20 pieds, avec un cercle et un isolateur.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14370 La vraie tour va être pardessus ça, et là, on va avoir quatre fils de cuivre qui vont être les fils... ce qu'on appelle la mise à la terre ou le ground.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14371 On a fait ça à la station WWJZ à Mount Holly, New Jersey, ça fonctionné très bien. D'ailleurs, on est devant vous, donc, on a un mémoire technique qui est accepté d'Industrie Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14372 Or, moi, je peux vous dire que j'ai fait ça aux États. Il faut trouver des nouvelles méthodes au niveau technique, Monsieur Arpin et Madame, Monsieur, parce que la façon conventionnelle, on a énormément de situations de problèmes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14373 Alors, c'est sûr que moi, la Commission du territoire agricole, on va les consulter. On a, d'ailleurs, déjà fait une première approche avec une madame Montour, et on nous a dit, écoutes, apportes‑nous un projet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14374 Mais c'est parce que là, entre‑temps, est arrivé l'histoire du 24 heures. Puis là, entre temps, on est en train de négocier peut‑être d'autres sites. Alors, si on a des sites meilleurs, bien, on n'ira peut‑être pas là. Mais si on n'a pas de site, on peut aller là. C'est un site qui fonctionne. On a un mémoire technique là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14375 LE PRÉSIDENT : Quand saurez‑vous si vous avez le bon site?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14376 M. MATHIEU : Bien moi, je voudrais entreprendre... par expérience, quand on a une licence du CRTC dans les mains, ça va bien mieux pour négocier, on est crédible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14377 LE PRÉSIDENT : Sauf que si on vous donne deux ans pour l'implantation de votre nouvelle station, je veux dire, vous allez être obligé de revenir pour nous demander d'extensionner la période?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14378 M. MATHIEU : Je ne croirais pas, Monsieur Arpin. Je croirais qu'on peut être en ondes assez rapidement. C'est ça qui est le but, si on avait une réponse... je pense que ça va être un peu difficile, mais si on avait une réponse, on peut aller assez vite là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14379 Dans un premier temps, Monsieur Arpin, on monte une tour pour mettre ça sur l'air. C'est ce que vous nous auriez autorisé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14380 Dans un deuxième temps, on vous demande la permission d'avoir trois tours, puis de diffuser dans un mode directionnel, et on vous soumet, effectivement...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14381 LE PRÉSIDENT : Non, mais si vous décidez de changer de site, évidemment, c'est des délais supplémentaires. En fait, c'est un nouveau mémoire technique, c'est une nouvelle demande au CRTC, c'est un nouveau processus public, et ça, habituellement, les gens se plaignent que ça prend bien du temps, mais là, dans ce cas‑ci, vous serez responsable du temps que ça prendra.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14382 M. MATHIEU : Monsieur Arpin, j'ai demandé au Conseil un changement de site pour Radio Shalom. Je ne sais pas combien de temps ça pris, mais ça n'a pas été long du tout. Vous avez été très diligent, on l'apprécie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14383 Je pense que dans le cas de Radio CKZW, ça ne sera un gros changement. Si on déménage le site d'un mille, ça ne change pas les contours. Ce n'est pas quelque chose qui change le marketing de la station de radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14384 Et on est honnête. On vous dit, regardez, on commence dans un premier temps daytime, on s'en va full‑time. Ça fait que les projections puis je l'ai bien dit dans la demande sont au pro rata des heures d'opération. On a assumé des heures d'opération normales. On divise tout par deux si on a une moyenne de 12 heures par jour puis ça vient de s'éteindre. Mais c'est du temporaire. On s'en va 24 heures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14385 Je vous confirme... il y a une lettre des églises baptistes du Canada qui est au dossier qui dit qu'on a un montant d'argent, et moi, je m'engage et je vous rappelle, je suis sous serment, je ne suis pas inquiet là ‑‑ à monter le site d'émetteurs avec ça. Alors, je ne vois pas de problèmes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14386 Je vois que je risque d'être un peu occupé pendant un mois, un mois et demi, mais c'est correct, c'est prévu, c'est ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14387 LE PRÉSIDENT : Dans votre mémoire, Monsieur Joly, vous dites que vous êtes disposé d'équipement expérimenté et réusiné qui a une valeur commerciale de $ 95 000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14388 M. JOLY : Oui. J'ai même eu des cadeaux de certaines entreprises connues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14389 LE PRÉSIDENT : Est‑ce que c'est le même $ 95 000 qui apparaît à la question 6.3 du...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14390 M. JOLY : Bien là, comme ça me coûte là, ça ne me coûte pas $ 95 000, ça ne me coûte pas grand'chose là comme c'est là. Mais en tout cas, j'ai tout ce qu'il faut actuellement pour aller en ondes, pas l'émetteur, par exemple.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14391 Oui, vas‑y donc.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14392 M. MATHIEU : Il est en ondes... j'explique. Radio Shalom, on a une période de shabbat. Les Juifs pendant une période de shabbat doivent louer leur commerce à ce qu'on appelle des gentils. Je suis le gentil.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14393 Vous allez recevoir une lettre de Radio Shalom d'ici quelques semaines pour vous informer qu'ils vont conserver ‑‑ il faut s'entendre, c'est eux qui sont responsables de la diffusion...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14394 LE PRÉSIDENT : Ils vont garder le gentil.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14395 M. MATHIEU : ...mais on va diffuser dans d'autres dénominations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14396 Moi, j'ai un petit studio chez nous, mais vous comprendrez que je n'ai pas le temps de m'en occuper. Alors, j'ai demandé à monsieur Joly de me donner un coup de main, puis avec le studio de production qui est situé au 2085 ‑‑ c'est ça, 2085 Papineau...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14397 M. JOLY : 2285 Papineau.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14398 M. MATHIEU : ...2285 Papineau, au moment où je vous parle, quand c'est le shabbat, on diffuse de la musique avec des messages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14399 D'ici quelques semaines, lorsqu'on vous aura fait parvenir la lettre et tout, on va diffuser des émissions, et il y a d'autres dénominations qui vont venir pour assurer...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14400 M. JOLY : Et nous allons être responsables des autres dénominations non chrétiennes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14401 M. MATHIEU : C'est ça, et ça va permettre à tout le monde, Radio Shalom et la Radio Gospel, d'atteindre l'équilibre, parce qu'on va avoir un input pour ces gens‑là pour venir se produire, puis de la mise en ondes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14402 Alors, l'équipement est là. Il y un système d'automation que Daniel Robert est en train de leur installer, un Simian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14403 LE PRÉSIDENT : Ouvrez votre micro, s'il vous plaît.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14404 M. JOLY : On a notre studio de production et studio de mise en ondes qui sont sur place. Alors, si vous nous donnez l'antenne aujourd'hui, on peut aller en ondes dans très peu de temps.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14405 LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame Cram a des questions pour vous.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14406 M. MATHIEU : Juste une chose, si vous me permettez, Monsieur Arpin. Dans une éventualité... je comprends que c'est peu probable, mais si on avait une licence d'ici un mois ou deux là, pour l'été ou l'automne, je serais capable d'aller mettre un trailer dans le champ, monter une tour, puis être en ondes omni.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14407 Puis si on ne garde pas ce site‑là, regardez, on est omni de là, on ne perd pas beaucoup parce que les fils de cuivre ne sont même pas dans la terre. C'est facile d'aller installer une autre tour au nouveau site, puis de faire un switch. Puis comme on est daytime, on part avec le trailer, puis le lendemain matin... on l'a quasiment fait à une place.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14408 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14409 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Monsieur Joly...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14410 MR. JOLY: You can speak English, no problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14411 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. If I understood you correctly, you said you would not be soliciting funds?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14412 MR. JOLY: No, we are not soliciting funds.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14413 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Would you agree to a condition of licence saying...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14414 MR. JOLY: Yes, no problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14415 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Instead, are you going to have a fundraising campaign under the name of the radio station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14416 M. JOLY : Est‑ce que c'est permis? Moi, je ne connais...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14417 M. MATHIEU : Ce serait une bonne idée. Tu n'es pas obligé de le faire...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14418 MR. JOLY: He says that is a good idea if it is okay but we are not going to solicit on the air. We are not going to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14419 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Would it be the radio station though that would be having a fundraising campaign?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14420 MR. JOLY: Is that okay?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14421 THE CHAIRPERSON: How will you promote it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14422 MR. MATHIEU: Mrs. Cram, we would like to say this. It would be an opportunity for us if your rules allow it, and if I read the rule on religious broadcasting, to a certain degree, people are allowed to suggest that funds be given providing they don't say, for instance, if you don't give money, you are not going to be blessed or something like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14423 We certainly have no intention of doing anything like that but if the option is there to have a fundraising once a year or something, that might be an option that Mr. Joly would like to have in his back pocket sort of and we are quite willing to accept by condition of licence ‑‑ I am sure Mr. Joly will agree ‑‑ to abide by your rule of religious programming and so on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14424 We are not going to aggressively ask for funds. We know that for a fact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14425 MR. JOLY: And you know, Quebec people don't like that type of solicitation. So it is not like Ottawa, CHRI, because I heard solicitation on as French‑Canadian Quebecers, we don't like that type of thing. So I wouldn't do that because I don't want to lose listeners, that's for sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14426 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Well, some western Canadians don't like it either.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14427 I am going to ask you if you would agree for so long as you would be considering fundraising of any kind that you would agree to a condition of licence that you would join and remain a member in good standing of the Canadian Council for Christian Charities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14428 MR. JOLY: Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14429 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And in that way at least we avoid our staff getting involved in any so did you say yes on the record, Mr. Joly?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14430 MR. JOLY: Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14431 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay, thank you, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14432 MR. MATHIEU: May I add something that we wanted to say? Cathy wanted to say that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14433 When we first started this project, I remember very well, it was not a fundraiser, it was une soirée‑bénéfice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14434 So this is something that we could do and that I am sure Mr. Joly had in mind, to do a concert, right, to the benefit of the radio station and that is really because, you have to understand, we are at this for about three or four years. The dons... les dons...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14435 THE CHAIRPERSON: The donations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14436 MR. MATHIEU: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Arpin. The donations come from that. It was a concert bénéfice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14437 LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame, messieurs, merci pour votre présentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14438 Nous passons immédiatement à la Phase II de l'audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14439 LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci, Monsieur le président.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14440 Ceci termine la première phase de la considération des articles 12 à 19 à l'ordre du jour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14441 Nous sommes maintenant rendus à la deuxième phase, où les requérantes comparaissent à nouveau, si elles le désirent, dans le même ordre, afin de présenter leur intervention aux demandes concurrentes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14442 International Harvesters for Christ Evangelistic Association nous a avisés qu'elle ne comparaîtra pas durant la Phase II.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14443 Nous demandons, alors, à Yves Sauvé d'intervenir sur les demandes concurrentes.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 14444 LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame la secrétaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14445 LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14446 Monsieur Sauvé, vous avez 10 minutes pour votre présentation.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 14447 M. SAUVÉ : Merci, Madame la secrétaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14448 Monsieur le président, Monsieur French, Madame Cram, re‑bonjour. Mon nom est Yves Sauvé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14449 Notre intervention concernant les autres demandes portera essentiellement sur la fréquence 106,3 demandée par René Ferron, Hellenic canadien câble radio ltée, International Harvesters, et Neeti P. Ray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14450 Je donne maintenant la parole à notre conseiller, le gentil Michel Mathieu, conseiller en radiodiffusion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14451 M. MATHIEU : Également, l'ours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14452 Écoutez, voici, je serai très bref. Je ne veux pas prendre le temps du Conseil. Je sais que tout le monde est un petit peu fatigué.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14453 Ce n'est pas compliqué, c'est une intervention très technique sur l'utilisation de la fréquence 106,3.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14454 Or, pour bien vous motiver à comprendre la situation, on vous a donné des cartes de contour de toutes les requérantes du 106,3, y inclus nous.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14455 M. SAUVÉ : Sauf Neeti P. Ray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14456 M. MATHIEU : Oui, on ne l'avait pas, mais c'est toute la même chose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14457 Vous allez voir, les demandes de Montréal, sauf Hellenic, ont été basées sur le même site et proposent la même chose. La demande de Neeti P. Ray, on ne l'a pas, mais vous l'avez en filière. Et vous avez notre contour à nous, O.K.?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14458 Je vous invite, et dans les interventions qu'on a faites, je vous invite ‑‑ parce qu'on ne l'a pas trouvé, malheureusement ‑‑ à comparer les cartes de contour d'une des stations FM majeures de Montréal, style Cité ou CFGL ou autre, puis de regarder ça, puis dire, comment est‑ce que quelqu'un va vivre avec ça?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14459 On vient de vous dire dans une demande qu'on a besoin d'une grosse fréquence AM pour faire un travail. Comment est‑ce que quelqu'un va faire ce travail‑là avec ce contour‑là? Comment est ce que quelqu'un va faire une radio ethnique avec ce contour‑là? Et ça, il y a d'autres interventions qui s'en viennent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14460 Alors moi, ce que je suis venu vous dire, c'est quand on regarde la qualité des demandes, vous avez la compétence requise pour les choisir et les adresser, mais si je peux vous apporter quelque chose, c'est la chose suivante.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14461 Vous avez une fréquence à Montréal qui rejoint bien du monde. C'est sûr que si vous la mettez sur le Mont‑Royal ou sur la Tour de la Bourse, elle va rejoindre plus de monde en quantité que ce que nous, on va faire à Vaudreuil‑Dorion, sauf que nous, on va donner un service à Vaudreuil‑Dorion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14462 Cette station‑là à Montréal, cette fréquence‑là à Montréal, elle va rejoindre bien du monde, mais il va y avoir toujours des problèmes d'interférence, parce que, ce qui a été dit là, c'est qu'il n'y a pas personne qui est capable d'affirmer avec certitude qu'il n'y aura pas de problèmes insolubles, il va toujours avoir un récepteur quelque part, vous allez toujours avoir quelque chose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14463 Je pense que le deuxième adjacent, c'est de l'inconnu. Je pense que le système IBOC, pour le moment présent, c'est de l'inconnu. Il y a toute sorte d'autres situations qui peuvent se produire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14464 Vous avez l'occasion de regarder ça, puis de dire, voici, on a des demandes, il y a des besoins, O.K.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14465 Vous avez une demande... et j'admets que je suis peut‑être un petit peu en conflit d'intérêt, mais je vais essayer d'être quand même transparent. J'essaie d'oublier mon rôle de consultant vis‑à‑vis de ces gens‑là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14466 Vous avez une demande de quelqu'un qui veut partir une radio à Vaudreuil‑Dorion, donner une radio locale, créer des emplois là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14467 Vous avez une personne qui a déjà une station de radio, qui l'opère en mono, parce que j'ai vérifié, moi, en fin de semaine. Depuis que cette station‑là est en ondes, le signal stéréo est éteint, probablement parce que ça donne un meilleur signal au récepteur, le récepteur ramasse moins de bruit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14468 Cette fréquence‑là, le 105,1, est meilleure que le 106,3, d'après moi, au niveau de l'interférence reçue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14469 Quand ils ont parlé ce matin de deuxième adjacent de Radio‑Canada, ce n'est pas la même chose que d'être deuxième adjacent à la même place. Je vais vous dire pourquoi, parce que Radio Canada, ils ne reçoivent probablement pas de plaintes parce que la plupart du monde écoute le 88,5, la station mère de Radio‑Canada anglophone à Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14470 C'est seulement une poignée de personnes près de cet émetteur‑là, parce que l'antenne qui est sur le Mont Royal du 88,5, elle a un trou dans le coin de... pas Westmount là, mais dans la Côte Saint‑Luc ou quelque chose du genre, Notre‑Dame de Grâces.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14471 LE PRÉSIDENT : NDG.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14472 M. MATHIEU : Pardon?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14473 LE PRÉSIDENT : NDG.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14474 M. MATHIEU : C'est ça, NDG. C'est exactement ça. Alors, c'est sûr que ça, ça atténue le nombre de plaintes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14475 Je ne sais pas, je ne suis pas dans la position de CKDG, je ne sais pas si eux ont eu des plaintes. Est‑ce qu'ils ont des auditeurs dans ce coin‑là? Peut‑être que ça adonne que leur programmation est telle qu'il n'y a pas eu de plaintes dans ce coin‑là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14476 Moi, je vais vous dire quelque chose, puis je vais vous sortir d'autre chose qui n'est pas seulement qu'un deuxième adjacent. C'est des stations à faible puissance qui s'en iraient sur la Tour de la Bourse. Il y a assez de problèmes d'intermodulation au centre‑ville, vous avez une station qui a 307 000 watts sur la bande de commerce.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14477 Si vous vous en allez avec la meilleure radio sur le boulevard René‑Lévesque, je pense que vous allez voir qu'il y a des situations un petit peu pénibles, et les radios surtout... puis on a d'excellentes radios.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14478 Je ne veux pas faire une marque de commerce, mais le GE Super Radio, c'est une excellente radio. Mais quand on veut syntoniser des stations près sur la bande FM, il n'est pas évident à cause que c'est une aiguille, ce n'est pas une radio numérique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14479 La même chose s'applique à toutes les demandes qu'il y a là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14480 La demande de monsieur Ferron, je n'ai rien contre lui, mais je pense qu'on peut voir que c'est presque un vou pieu. On a un beau rêve, mais dans la réalité, c'est autre chose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14481 Quand on regarde la demande de monsieur Neeti P. Ray, de International Harvesters, de S.S. TV, écoutez, vous avez Radio Humsafar qui veut prendre une fréquence AM qui coûte pas chère à installer puis qui fonctionne bien. Vous avez reconnu ça. Vous en avez donné des stations comme ça : CJWI, CHOU, CJRS, je peux continuer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14482 LE PRÉSIDENT : Est‑ce que monsieur Humsafar va revenir?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14483 M. MATHIEU : Monsieur Humsafar va revenir, puis on va vous redire la même chose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14484 LE PRÉSIDENT : Bon bien, c'est ça. Passez à d'autre chose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14485 M. MATHIEU : Bien, passer à autre chose, je vous explique qu'il y a d'autres requérants dans la bande AM qui peuvent donner le service de requérants qui demandent le FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14486 Monsieur Sauvé, lui, il vous demande une station unique à Vaudreuil‑Dorion. Il n'y a rien qu'une fréquence pour le faire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14487 C'était notre intervention. Si vous avez des questions...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14488 LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14489 M. SAUVÉ : Merci beaucoup.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14490 LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame la secrétaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14491 THE SECRETARY: Now I would ask Hellenic canadien câble radio to appear before us.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 14492 THE SECRETARY: You have 10 minutes to intervene on the competing applications. Merci.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 14493 MS GRIFFITHS: Thank you, ma'am.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14494 Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and commissioners, once again.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14495 We have filed a written intervention in this proceeding, so we will be brief today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14496 Our comments relate specifically to competing applications that you have heard today and yesterday for 106.3 FM. These applications are by Yves Sauvé, René Ferron, International Harvesters for Christ Evangelistic and Neeti Ray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14497 We have listened with interest to the other applicants for a station in Montreal. All of these have proposed a new service on an AM frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14498 We do not oppose the licensing of any of those AM applications, all of which could co‑exist well with our proposed service on 106.3.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14499 We view our application to be specific to AM radio. It is an FM radio format relying to a large extent on World Music which is enhanced by the quality of the FM frequency, que ça soit stéréo ou mono, and on high‑quality ethnic productions focused on key target groups with ties to the French language as a second language.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14500 I will ask, first, M. Jean Fréchette, our engineer, to address the application by monsieur Sauvé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14501 Jean.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14502 M. FRÉCHETTE : Dans la région de Vaudreuil‑Dorion, définitivement, il y a une autre fréquence qui pourrait être utilisée. Cette fréquence ne pourrait pas être utilisée à Montréal, et elle pourrait l'être à Vaudreuil‑Dorion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14503 Pour la question du mono, c'est à l'écoute qu'on détermine si c'est mono ou stéréo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14504 LE PRÉSIDENT : Ça sera la partie de la réplique. Cette portion‑là viendra en réplique. On est dans la phase d'intervention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14505 Me FORTUNE : Si je peux. I think Mr. Fréchette...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14506 LE PRÉSIDENT : D'accord, finissez votre phrase.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14507 M. FRÉCHETTE : Parfois, le mono peut être supérieur au stéréo. Par exemple, le 95,1 à Montréal. Le 106,3 a été demandé en stéréo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14508 LE PRÉSIDENT : Excusez. D'accord.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14509 MS GRIFFITHS: Let me move to the application by monsieur Ferron. The objective for this service is a good one, rapprochement amongst all of Montreal's communities. Also, we understand the potential power of the World Music format. Still, the application has significant shortcomings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14510 Number one, the business plan, revenue projections and other material factors are based on personal anecdotes and a trial and error approach. We ask will the service work in practice, will it stay the same, with the same altruistic objective, after it is tested in the marketplace? We simply do not know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14511 Number two, is this format which includes only lighter content spoken‑word programming? We do not see a large role for many Montrealers to build careers in broadcasting and draw on the skills of Montreal's diversity. We believe that the service will suffer as a result.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14512 For example, the application says that a Haitian actress, Fabienne Colas, will be coordinating and hosting all the Latino programming. Our five Spanish producers who attended this hearing were shocked when they learned this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14513 Number three, regarding the spoken word content, everyone has different tastes. Still, there is an emphasis in this service on being inoffensive. There is, respectfully, a kind of superficiality in the content that I find hard to accept for a service that has ambitious goals regarding rapprochement, of all things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14514 There is a continuing need for dialogue and real understanding among communities in my city, Montreal, as I believe Mr. Niemi had to agree yesterday. I am not convinced the limited spoken‑word content this service will program can reach out ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14515 LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame Griffiths, vous êtes en train de refaire votre comparution. On est dans la phase d'intervention. Je veux entendre ce que vous avez à dire sur les... vous l'avez dit sur monsieur Sauvé. Je veux entendre ce que vous avez à dire sur monsieur Ferron, monsieur Ray, International Harvesters, et puis vous aurez l'opportunité de revenir après ça en réplique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14516 L'audience, on l'a tenue hier dans votre cas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14517 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: Madam Griffiths, are you not now addressing Mr. Ferron's application?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14518 MS GRIFFITHS: Yes, I am, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14519 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: Mr. Chairman, with respect, everything that Madam Griffiths has said for the last three minutes has been specifically directed to one or the other applications. So I don't believe that she is out of order.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14520 Perhaps there was a misunderstanding but I think your ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14521 MME GRIFFITHS : Je m'excuse si j'ai...

LISTNUM 1 \l 14522 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: I think it is clear there may have been a misunderstanding. As long as you are intervening to assist the Commission in evaluating the various other applications, you are within your rights at this part of the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14523 MS GRIFFITHS: Thank you, sir. I am just trying to highlight shortcomings of what they said.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14524 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: I think I understood that. Perhaps the Chairman didn't and I want to make sure that he understands.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14525 THE CHAIRPERSON: I really apologize because I thought you were enhancing your own application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14526 MME GRIFFITHS : Non, Monsieur. Je m'excuse, hein. Je parle vite en anglais, c'est pour ça peut‑être. Je vais essayer... O.K.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14527 LE PRÉSIDENT : Montrez de la patience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14528 MS GRIFFITHS: Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14529 We are not convinced that the limited spoken‑word content this service, Radio Monde, will program can reach out to all Montrealers and build common ground between arriving immigrants, new Canadians and the francophone communities of Montreal and the greater regions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14530 Last, with respect to the World Music format, I would like Yves Bernard to say a few words about the shortcomings of this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14531 Yves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14532 M. BERNARD : Merci, Marie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14533 Monsieur le président, Monsieur et Madame les conseillers, quand j'ai commencé à faire des émissions de Musique du monde en 1980, on n'appelait même pas ça Musique du monde, on appelait ça Musique internationale ou Musique ethnique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14534 Maintenant, j'ai l'honneur de pouvoir couvrir la Musique du monde, et pour le journal * Le Devoir + à Montréal, et pour l'hebdomadaire * Ici Montréal +, et j'accepte avec beaucoup de plaisir la proposition que madame Griffiths m'a faite pour devenir directeur musical du 106,3.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14535 Aujourd'hui, nous critiquons l'approche musicale du projet de monsieur Ferron. Rien de ce que nous avons entendu hier ne nous a permis de croire que cette équipe possède une connaissance approfondie de la réalité montréalaise par rapport aux musiques du monde. Les musiques du monde ne se limitent pas seulement à celles que nous font connaître les grands réseaux déjà reconnus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14536 Hier, durant l'intervention, nous n'avons rien entendu ou presque rien entendu sur les 1 500 artistes montréalais qui existent, qui font des musiques du monde à Montréal ‑‑ le chiffre est du répertoire de Musique‑Multi‑Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14537 On n'a rien ou presque rien entendu sur les 200 disques produits sur CD par les musiciens immigrants montréalais depuis 2000;

LISTNUM 1 \l 14538 ‑ rien sur les 150 artistes différents montréalais qui ont produit des disques depuis 200;

LISTNUM 1 \l 14539 ‑ rien ou à peu près rien sur tous ces artistes immigrants qui tournent de plus en plus au Québec ou dans l'ensemble du Canada;

LISTNUM 1 \l 14540 ‑ rien ou presque rien sur l'augmentation du nombre des festivals ‑‑ seulement pour les mois de juillet et août de l'an dernier, il y avait 17 festivals à Montréal qui étaient des festivals des musiques du monde ou qui présentaient des musiques du monde;

LISTNUM 1 \l 14541 ‑ rien sur l'augmentation de l'auditoire de ces festivals ‑‑ on peut citer en exemple le Festival international des nuits d'Afrique qui a suscité la participation de 150 000 personnes l'été dernier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14542 Donc, comme vous le constatez, le phénomène des musiques du monde est beaucoup plus diversifié que ce que, nous semble‑t‑il, on a entendu hier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14543 MS GRIFFITHS: Merci. Merci beaucoup.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14544 M. BERNARD : Bienvenue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14545 MS GRIFFITHS: The World Music format is rich with content and new artists. Mr. Ferron's application will focus on only the most popular easy listening kind of World Music. We don't believe this is the best way to approach the World Music format. Montreal has before it an opportunity to lead the world in this format if it is done properly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14546 Let me move to the application by Neeti Ray. This is a good application in a number of areas but it does not make use of the full potential of Montreal's last FM frequency, especially to build bridges among ethnic communities and the francophone community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14547 The vast proportion of programming on the service will be in third languages. A small amount will be in English for specific Black English speaking communities in Montreal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14548 Mr. Ray has, in fact, described to us a traditional ethnic service. Such a service could find a more suitable home on the AM band where it could provide service in third languages to a large number of Montreal's communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14549 We are also concerned that Mr. Ray is striving to give something to everyone on 106.3 FM and thus he is losing the potential to leverage the power of the frequency to reach out to all of Montreal in the French language. Mr. Ray's service is not structured to build bridges between ethnic groups and the majority population of our city.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14550 Also, listening today to Mr. Ray's presentation, we note the following.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14551 The revenue projections for the service are aggressive. The projections do not reflect the nature of the Montreal ethnic advertising market. For example, we know that print advertising is hugely popular and radio has a very hard job to make inroads in that area, especially when the radio product is so splintered.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14552 Two, the proposed community advisory council is needed but we are not sure that it can do as good a job as local ownership and direct control from Montreal. Owners that live in the community play a large role in making such a service meet the needs of that community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14553 Three, the service relies heavily on brokered programming. All but the main daytime programs will be brokered. Brokered programming has a role to play, to be sure, but it is all different in quality and approach. It does not build a common audience and it is difficult to supervise and control, especially for owners in another city.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14554 This kind of programming, we believe, is more suitable as AM appointment radio for the target groups rather for a service on the last FM frequency that could serve many Montrealers all at the same time more comprehensively.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14555 International Harvesters. Let me provide just a short comment on their application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14556 This service does not again, we believe, propose the best use of a scarce resource for the city of Montreal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14557 One, at 60 hours a week, a relatively small proportion of the programming will be local.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14558 THE SECRETARY: I am sorry, can you conclude? Your time has expired.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14559 MS GRIFFITHS: Conclusion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14560 Only 28 hours or just over 20 percent will be spoken and only five hours will be news, low in comparison to other proposals.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14561 Overall, we are concerned that a largely single faith religious service is not the kind of new service that is needed today to best serve Montreal's incredibly diverse communities in these times, when issues of accommodation are at the forefront of our social conscience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14562 Je vous remercie de l'occasion que vous nous avez donnée. Il nous fera plaisir de répondre à vos questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14563 LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame Griffiths, j'en aurais une. Elle découle de la présentation de monsieur Fréchette.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14564 Pouvez‑vous nous indiquer quelle fréquence est disponible pour Vaudreuil‑Dorion puisqu'on a entendu, hier, le représentant de monsieur Sauvé nous dire qu'il y en avait une, mais elle n'était d'aucun intérêt, mais malheureusement, cette personne‑là ne nous a pas indiqué de quelle fréquence il parlait, et vous, vous nous dites qu'il y a une bonne fréquence potentielle pour le marché de Vaudreuil‑Dorion; est‑ce que vous pouvez substantier votre affirmation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14565 M. FRÉCHETTE : 101,3.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14566 LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14567 Madame la secrétaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14568 LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci, Monsieur le président.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14569 MME GRIFFITHS : Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14570 LA SECRÉTAIRE : Nous demandons maintenant à monsieur René Ferron d'intervenir sur les demandes concurrentes.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 14571 LA SECRÉTAIRE : Vous avez 10 minutes pour votre présentation. Merci.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 14572 M. FERRON : Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14573 Alors, bonjour. Ici, René Ferron. Je suis la requérante 2006‑0612‑1 pour l'obtention d'une radio de langue française commerciale à la fréquence 106,3 FM à Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14574 Ma première intervention relative aux demandes compétitives s'adresse à monsieur Neeti P. Ray, requérante pour l'obtention d'une radio à la fréquence 106,3 commerciale à caractère ethnique, et sa demande porte le numéro 2007‑0133‑5.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14575 Nous considérons que la présence de radio à caractère ethnique à Montréal est nécessaire, et même très appréciée. Cependant, l'auditoire plutôt restreint de ces radios ne justifierait pas l'utilisation d'une fréquence sur la bande FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14576 La seule et dernière fréquence FM disponible à Montréal devrait plutôt être utilisée pour desservir un auditoire plus vaste, un auditoire qui serait composé de Montréalais de toutes origines, dont plusieurs souvent sont trilingues et qui préfèrent entendre une musique variée, c'est‑à‑dire en mode mosaïque.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14577 C'est pourquoi nous conseillons à monsieur Neeti Ray, qui aime beaucoup, d'ailleurs, la bande AM, de diriger une nouvelle demande vers une fréquence AM, comme, d'ailleurs, il l'a fait récemment pour les villes de Brampton et Mississauga. Malheureusement, il n'a pas eu la licence dans Brampton, mais il a réussi à avoir une licence pour une radio AM à Mississauga, et nous le félicitons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14578 Nous nous opposons, donc, à ce qu'une licence pour une fréquence sur une bande FM soit accordée à la requérante 2007‑0133‑5 pour le marché de Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14579 Notre deuxième intervention est à l'encontre de la requérante 2006‑1032‑6, soit Hellenic Canadian Cable Radio ltée. Cette requérante postule pour l'obtention d'une deuxième licence pour une radio commerciale à Montréal à caractère ethnique à la fréquence 106,3 sur la bande FM, et comme on le sait tous et on l'a dit souvent, la seule et dernière fréquence FM encore disponible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14580 Nous nous opposons à ce que le Conseil accorde à la requérante en titre une licence pour une radio commerciale à caractère ethnique pour les mêmes raisons que celles invoquées précédemment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14581 Nous ajoutons que dans la demande de Hellenic, on signale que le succès de son CKDG est très grand et qu'il y a une très forte demande de la part de d'autres ethnies pour pouvoir diffuser et qu'elle n'a pas l'espace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14582 Signalons, cependant, que son succès n'est peut‑être pas aussi évident puisque les dernières cotes d'écoute de CKDG nous montrent qu'elle est écoutée par 0,1 pour cent d'auditeurs et qu'elle aurait perdu 10 pour cent d'auditeurs depuis un an.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14583 Également, nous nous permettons de rappeler qu'à peine il y un an, soit le 15 mars 2006, il est écrit dans un document du CRTC 2006‑82, article 8 :

* HCCR souligne que la station CKDG FM n'est en ondes que depuis avril 2004 et n'est pas parvenue à une stabilité financière jusqu'à présent. Selon elle, l'ajout d'un nouveau service ethnique aurait un impact sur les engagements mêmes de CKDG. +

LISTNUM 1 \l 14584 Et à l'article 7 du même document, on cite ceci :

* Selon l'intervenante, le marché de Montréal a besoin de temps pour s'ajuster et trouver un juste équilibre. +

LISTNUM 1 \l 14585 Enfin, notre opposition à l'obtention par la requérante 2006‑1224‑3, présentée par International Harvesters for Christ Evangelistic Association, eh bien, comme d'autres, cette requérante devrait diriger une nouvelle demande vers la bande AM, étant donné qu'il existe déjà à Montréal sur la bande FM une excellente radio à caractère religieux, Radio Ville‑Marie, et dont la mission, mentionnons‑le, est écuménique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14586 Nous nous opposons, donc, également à cette demande.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14587 Nous vous remercions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14588 LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci, Monsieur Ferron.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14589 Madame la secrétaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14590 THE SECRETARY: I would now ask Neeti P. Ray to intervene on the competing applications.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 14591 THE SECRETARY: You have 10 minutes to make your presentation. Thank you.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 14592 MR. RAY: Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14593 Mr. Chairman, Commissioner French and Commissioner Cram, good afternoon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14594 This intervention is in opposition to six other applicants: Canadian Hellenic Cable Radio Ltd.; S.S. TV; Radio Humsafar; René Ferron, I guess, on behalf of a company to be incorporated; Yves Sauvé, OBCI; and also International Harvesters for Christ Evangelical Association.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14595 Three of the above applicants are applications for radio undertakings in the ethnic format. While the remaining three are for services for the mainstream audiences in French and English languages, it is also our understanding that there is room for two, possibly three new radio services to be licensed in the Montreal market, one in the mainstream French format, the other in the ethnic format, and possibly perhaps a religious mainstream format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14596 Each application has made its case. Everyone has obviously worked very hard and will stand on its merits and we wish them all well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14597 I will, therefore, comment on two aspects of the applications during this process: one, relating to the basis for the licensing of an ethnic radio undertaking; and two, the best use of the available frequencies or the best allocation of these frequencies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14598 The Ethnic Broadcasting Policy 1999‑117 states that, and I quote:

"The Commission decides on the minimum number of distinct groups that a station must serve on the basis of demographics of the community and the services already available and the degree of support shown by local community organizations. The Commission also assesses the ability of ethnic stations to provide appropriate amount of quality programming."

LISTNUM 1 \l 14599 The broad range service requirement of the Ethnic Broadcasting Policy is of particular importance in a region where a number of third language ethnic groups is still without any radio service in their respective heritage languages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14600 In a market like Toronto or Vancouver where most of the ethnic communities are well served by existing radio stations, it would be possible or it would be justifiable to let a new licensee serve a very small number of third‑language communities so as to provide an enhanced quality of programming to the groups they serve.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14601 Such is not the case in the Montreal market. While the number of ethnic communities are very well served in Montreal, such as the Italian, Arabic, Jewish, Greek, Spanish and Creole language communities, there are language groups, each with a sizeable population, who do not have any service on the radio at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14602 For example, the Indo‑Caribbean community with a population of 10,970 people; the Cambodian community with 8,480 people; Turkish with 5,160 population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14603 Then we go on to Dari language which is for the Afghan community; Lao for the Laotian people; Korean; Twi, which is for the Ghanaian community; Hungarian; Czech; Slovak; and Bulgarian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14604 Additionally, there are language groups with meagre radio services available to them in Montreal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14605 For example, the South‑Asian, community with 60,530 people, according to 2001 Census, has only 90 minutes of service late in the night on an existing radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14606 Similarly, Vietnamese, with a population of 25,605 in Montreal, has only 90 minutes per week on CFMB.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14607 Now more specifically about the applicants, Canadian Hellenic Cable Radio Ltd. (Hellenic) proposes to serve six cultural groups in eight different languages: Spanish, Creole, Arabic, Romanian, Armenian, Hebrew, Vietnamese and South‑Asian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14608 With the exception of Vietnamese, which currently has only 12 hours of service per week on CFMB Radio, and South‑Asian, also with 12 hours of service available per week on CFMB, all other language groups proposed to be served by Hellenic are well served by one or more radio stations in the Montreal market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14609 This application does not address the broad range service requirements of the Ethnic Broadcasting Policy quoted earlier and does not reflect the needs of groups that do not have or have little service available in Montreal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14610 It only strives to enhance services to groups already well served in this market. The largest unserved ethnic group in the Montreal region, the South‑Asians, have been allocated only four hours per week in this proposal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14611 Also, given that Hellenic would devote only 70 percent of their broadcast week to ethnic programming, one would question whether their proposed station will be ethnic enough since they could have utilized the balance of the 30 percent of the total broadcast hours to serve groups that do not have any service on the radio at this time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14612 Moving on to Radio Humsafar application, we would be concerned if this application were to be approved because of the very limited number of ethnic communities that this application proposes to serve. Basically, all programming proposed in this application would be directed to language groups within the South‑Asian community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14613 The question that must be kept in mind is whether this proposal is in keeping with the Commission's policy requiring a broad range of services, particularly in a large market like Montreal where radio frequencies are extremely scarce and many third‑language communities still remain without any radio service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14614 Radio Humsafar's proposal calls for broadcasting services to the South‑Asian community at the expense of services to unserved groups who badly need them and who are unlikely to receive any radio service unless one of the currently available frequencies among the almost entirely depleted supply of frequencies is used to serve them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14615 The Commission is, therefore, urged to deny the above applications in favour of our application, which demonstrates a clear understanding and addresses well the expectations of the Ethnic Broadcasting Policy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14616 Going on to the applications by René Ferron, Yves Sauvé and the International Harvesters for Christ Evangelical Association, the above applications propose various mainstream French and English language formats.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14617 We have no concerns regarding the licensing of any such service except if one was to be licensed at the cost of services to unserved and underserved third‑language communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14618 That, Mr. Chairman, concludes our intervention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14619 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Ray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14620 Mrs. Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14621 THE SECRETARY: I would now ask S.S. TV Inc. to intervene on the competing applications.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 14622 THE SECRETARY: You have 10 minutes to make your presentation. Thank you.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 14623 MR. PANNU: Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14624 Good afternoon, Chairperson and commissioners and staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14625 We have opposition only against Humsafar Radio, and all other applicants, I think they have given all their opinion. So I would ask Mr. Patrola to speak on some technical specifications.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14626 MR. PRATOLA: Thank you, Mr. Pannu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14627 Chairman and commissioners, the one comment that we have is basically with the cost that Radio Humsafar has projected into their plans of $5,000 per year in maintenance for a radio station, AM radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14628 This is about as expensive as a telephone in the range of about $416 a month to maintain a radio station according to their projections.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14629 Just the replacement of some equipment, for example, if you are versed in the industry, you would know an Optima, for example, an AM Optima will cost you several thousand dollars.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14630 You have such things as emergency calls, equipment repairs, heat, hydro, sundries, internet, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14631 Contract services. Heating and ventilation would cost serious dollars.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14632 Equipment repairs would blow this $5,000 right out of the water. Transmission system maintenance and measurements, ICA requirements such as frequency checks as required, faulty equipment replacement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14633 Radio Humsafar has hinted that in order to maximize the 1,410 at 10 KW, particularly in our case, one requires an array of towers. They are right, very correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14634 But to underline, S.S. TV is committed to the Montreal ethnic market, we are committed to spend the dollars, we are committed to do whatever it takes in order to provide service to our people. We will not serve the ethnic community on the basis of how cheap I can get my signal there. They deserve better.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14635 The use of 1 kW or 1,000 watts at 1,400 KHz would be a travesty as related to the maximum usage of the AM spectrum.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14636 S.S. TV will provide the best coverage, best penetration into the market and consistent signal to our listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14637 In summary, it is obvious to S.S. TV Inc. that Radio Humsafar does not appreciate the complexities and responsibilities placed on them by the CRTC by the fact that they are the custodian of public airwaves. In my experience, it matters not what power you have, the responsibility is one and the same. Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14638 MR. PANNU: Now we have financial comments and programming comments on Humsafar.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14639 Sanjiv.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14640 MR. KUMAR: First of all, I will be greeting you in an ethnic way just for a change.

‑‑‑ Foreign language spoken / Langue étrangère parlée

LISTNUM 1 \l 14641 MR. KUMAR: First of all, on the financial part, running an AM station under $100,000, this is not a realistic, viable, professionally broadcasting operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14642 Secondly, from the financial operation table, the resources are so meagre, they cannot provide quality programming. It could possibly border on bankruptcy. National revenue of $6,000 is meaningless.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14643 There is a great potential of national advertising revenue, as most national companies beat Air Canada, Bell, telephone companies and various banks. They have budgets for diversity. Ethnic channels can get some share in that if they move professionally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14644 With approximately $80,000 on programming, while their whole programming is station produced, it is not brokered, so will it be enough money to provide full‑time programming personnel?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14645 Another important point I would like to mention is that going through the programming of Humsafar, it seems really good programming for an SCMO service but not for an AM service. It must serve more ethnic communities to optimally utilize an AM frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14646 In Toronto there are many services:

LISTNUM 1 \l 14647 ‑ 530 AM having Hindi and Punjabi programming;

LISTNUM 1 \l 14648 ‑ 770 AM from the States has Urdu programming;

LISTNUM 1 \l 14649 ‑ 1320 AM has Punjabi programming from morning 11:00 a.m. to midnight;

LISTNUM 1 \l 14650 ‑ 1430 AM has two hours;

LISTNUM 1 \l 14651 ‑ 88.9 FM has 12 hour programming daily; and

LISTNUM 1 \l 14652 ‑ 89.5 has 1 hour daily programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14653 We have no problem with our SCMO service. The fear of Radio Humsafar that their service may be in jeopardy lacks any merit. Humsafar intends to close their service if granted an AM licence. This is between their previous commitments.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14654 Recently, in NAB, at Las Vegas, Mr. Pannu was there. He saw extra FM technology which will be providing sideband SCMO service in digital. So SCMO service will have latest technology option. SC technology will be used in future on SCMO sidebands.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14655 We request CRTC should look forward to allow these technologies to be used in future.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14656 Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14657 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you finished your presentation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14658 MR. PANNU: Yes, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14659 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14660 MR. PANNU: Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14661 Madame la secrétaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14662 THE SECRETARY: I would now ask Radio Humsafar to intervene on the competing applications.

‑‑‑ Pause

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 14663 MR. SANDHU: Good evening, everyone.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14664 So I request Mr. Mike Mathieu, our broadcaster consultant, to proceed with the intervention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14665 M. MATHIEU : Merci, Monsieur Sandhu. Thank you, Mr. Sandhu. It is still the afternoon, so we can say good afternoon but good evening in a few minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14666 I am going to be brief. This is basically technical. You have got applications in front of you. Let me suggest this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14667 I think we have made a point here that 1,400 is a very valuable asset frequency to Montreal because it allows one to operate omnidirectional at somewhat of a reduced cost by still giving a very decent service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14668 The proof: CJWI, CJLO, CJRS, CHOU in Montreal, three stations in Toronto, one in Ottawa, meaning Radio‑Enfants, and more to come.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14669 So that being said, we are giving you the maps of Radio Humsafar and comparing that to that of the 1,410 station, the S.S. TV proposal, and Mr. Ray's proposal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14670 Going along with what I have said before, if you look at the contours of Radio Humsafar and you find that the basic ethnic South‑Asian population is where I said it was, which is LaSalle, Lachine, Saint‑Laurent, the West Island of Montreal, we are there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14671 If you look at the other page, on the contour ‑‑ and I understand they have got 10 kW and I understand all that but the site is not well located and the pattern is not aimed properly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14672 So when you look at this you have got a null going here almost to the West Island of Montreal, you have got 25 mV here and 15 goes there. It barely covers Côte Saint‑Luc and Hampstead.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14673 May I remind you again that the 15 mV is the market contour. We have got 15 mV around almost all the population. If not, we have got 5 mV and we do the job.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14674 I have got their 7 and their 5 here no, that is the 1 mV. That doesn't even go past whoa, that doesn't even go to the West Island. I mean that is going not even to Chomedey and that is the 1.51 mV contour, 20 percent of the night limit. I am sorry, that doesn't cut the mustard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14675 If you give the 1,410 frequency, you wipe out 1,400. If you decide to give a licence to S.S. TV, I strongly recommend that they get another frequency. The 1,320 frequency that le Conseil awarded me in 1998 for CJMS would do the trick, from four towers, which the bases are still existing in Saint‑Constant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14676 By the way, I spoke to somebody in Saint‑Constant, Mr. Turcot, who will be here tomorrow and he claims there's no three towers in line at CJMS as we speak. There's three towers on the site but the third tower is too far away to be used. It is a part of the old CKJM 6‑tower array.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14677 The same thing for Mr. Neeti P. Ray. Look at the contour and you will see that it doesn't cover the South‑Asian properly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14678 Also, the fact that the 1,400 proposal allows you to bonify the services now being given by Radio Humsafar to the Montreal area without it leaves the 106.3 free and I assure you that there are many AM frequencies out there available for other ethnic groups.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14679 Which brings me to the last subject, the number of groups and languages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14680 Mr. Sandhu has been in broadcasting in Canada, in Montreal for over 16 years. He ran his SCMO. We understand the Policy of the Commission on Ethnic Broadcasting but when you look at those small ethnic stations that you have licensed, they are not covering more than seven or eight groups and languages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14681 You have to focus ‑‑ we understand the purpose. The purpose was done so that you don't have one language/one group per station. We agree to that but to understand ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14682 THE CHAIRPERSON: This is part of the reply, Mr. Mathieu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14683 MR. MATHIEU: Okay, fine. We will do that tomorrow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14684 At the moment, let me suggest that Mr. Sandhu is going to complete this proposal and there we go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14685 MR. SANDHU: Thank you, Mr. Mathieu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14686 So in conclusion, I just want to request the Commission to deny S.S. TV's and Neeti P. Ray's application and approve Radio Humsafar's one and that is the best in the public interest.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14687 There are hundreds of letters from associations, business people

LISTNUM 1 \l 14688 THE CHAIRPERSON: This is part of the reply, Mr. Sandhu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14689 MR. MATHIEU: We are trying also to save time, but anyway, that is fine, we will be back tomorrow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14690 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14691 MR. SANDHU: Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14692 M. MATHIEU : Thank you, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14693 LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame la secrétaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14694 THE SECRETARY: I would now ask the last appearing applicant, which is Gospel Media Communications, to intervene on the applications.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 14695 LA SECRÉTAIRE : Vous avez 10 minutes pour votre présentation. Merci.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 14696 M. JOLY : Re‑bonjour, Monsieur le président. Je vais vous passer notre consultant, Michel Mathieu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14697 M. MATHIEU : Alors, re‑re‑re‑bonjour. Je serai très, très, très bref parce qu'on a la réplique demain.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14698 On a fait la même chose. Vous avez une copie de la carte de International Harvesters. Vous avez une copie de ce qu'on propose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14699 On vous a dit dans notre demande que pour réussir ce service‑là, il faut avoir une grande couverture. Harvesters ne l'offre pas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14700 Ce que Harvesters est venu vous dire ce matin, ça prouve que c'est des gens qui ne sont pas dans le marché de Montréal, qui ne comprennent pas les besoins à Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14701 Je pense que mon client, monsieur Joly, les comprend ces besoins‑là, et je pense que tout est clair dans ce domaine‑là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14702 Il y a quelque chose que Harvesters vous a dit qui n'est pas exact quand il a parlé de la station américaine, puis qu'il doit vous donner une information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14703 Le gérant de la station américaine, parce que ça fait 21 ans que je vais là, j'ai communiqué avec lui. Il m'a dit qu'il connaissait le monsieur de nom, mais qu'il n'était pas au courant de rien de ça. Il m'a retéléphoné pour me dire que le gars l'avait appelé, puis il n'avait jamais mentionné qu'il était dans une audience du CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14704 En tout cas, il y a plein d'inexactitudes là‑dedans. Je pense qu'on doit porter ça devant le Conseil, question de crédibilité.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14705 LE PRÉSIDENT : Ça complète votre intervention?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14706 M. MATHIEU : A demain. Bonne soirée.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14707 LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci. Merci beaucoup, Monsieur Mathieu. Merci, Monsieur Joly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14708 M. MATHIEU : Je prendrai une bonne Heineken à votre santé à tout le monde.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14709 LE PRÉSIDENT : Après la fin de l'audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14710 Il reste encore deux phases, en fait, trois parce que demain matin, à la première heure, nous entendrons les représentants de Aboriginal Voice Radio, suite à quoi nous entendrons les interventions de la Phase III et les répliques de la Phase IV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14711 Madame la conseillère.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14712 Me LAGACÉ : Simplement pour mentionner ou rappeler aux parties que les engagements devront être fournis au panel avant le début de la phase des interventions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14713 LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci beaucoup. Bonsoir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14714 Demain matin 8 h 30.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14715 We will resume the public hearing with the appearance of AVR tomorrow morning, followed by the intervention and the rebuttal. The hearing will start at 8:30.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14716 Have a great evening.

‑‑‑ Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1758, to

resume at 0830 on Wednesday, May 2, 2007 /

L'audience est ajournée à 1758, pour reprendre

à 0830 le mercredi 2 mai 2007.

REPORTERS

_____________________ _____________________

Johanne Morin Monique Mahoney

_____________________ _____________________

Fiona Potvin Jean Desaulniers

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