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              TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

                       SUBJECT/SUJET:

 

 

 

VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

 

Conference Centre                     Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room                        Salle Outaouais

Portage IV                            Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage              140, promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                      Gatineau (Québec)

 

March 28, 2007                        Le 28 mars 2007

 


 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.


               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

 

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

                 Transcript / Transcription

 

 

 

            VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

            PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Rita Cugini                       Chairperson / Présidente

Michel Arpin                      Commissioner / Conseiller

Richard French                    Commissioner / Conseiller

Barbara Cram                      Commissioner / Conseillère

Helen del Val                     Commissioner / Conseillère

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Jade Roy                          Secretary / Secrétaire

Valérie Dionne                    Legal Counsel /

Conseillère juridique

Joe Aguiar                        Hearing Manager /

Gérant de l'audience

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

 

Conference Centre                 Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room                    Salle Outaouais

Portage IV                        Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage          140, promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                  Gatineau (Québec)

 

March 28, 2007                    Le 28 mars 2007

 


           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE III

 

 

REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:

 

Kenneth R. Schaffer                               458 / 2893

 

Diversity Television Inc.                         468 / 2929

 

National Broadcast Reading Service (OBCI)         475 / 2957

 

Avis de recherche inc. and All Points             485 / 2998

  Bulletin Incorporated

 

Faith and Spirit Media Inc.                       493 / 3026

 

Pelmorex Communications Inc.                      499 / 3047

 

Canadian Broadcasting Corporation                 508 / 3088

 

 

 

PHASE I

 

 

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

Joco Communications Inc.                          520 / 3148

 

William Wrightshell (OBCI)                        581 / 3545

 

Newcap Inc.                                       630 / 3900

 

Connelly Communications Inc.                      717 / 4430

 

 

 

 

 

 


                      ERRATA / ADDENDA

 

 

                           ACTION

 

March 27, 2007 (Volume 1)

 

Page 302,        "80 pour cent" s/b "85 pour cent"

Line 10,

Para 2110

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


                  Gatineau Quebec / Gatineau (Québec)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Wednesday, March 28, 2007

    at 0900 / L'audience débute le mercredi 28 mars

    2007 à 0900

LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 28882888             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12889             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you Madame Chair.  For the record, Diversity Television has filed the revised nature of service, and the breakdown of original programming and acquired programming.  These documents are going to be available in the Examination Room.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12890             And now we will proceed to Phase III in which applicants can apply to all interventions submitted on their application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12891             I would like to mention that Astral Broadcasting and YTV mentioned that they will not appear in this Phase.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12892             And now I would ask Kenneth Schaffer to make your presentation.  You have ten minutes for this purpose.  Thank you.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE


LISTNUM 1 \l 12893             MR. SCHAFFER:  Hello, bonjour.  Thank you again, Madame Commissioner and the Commission for allowing us to appear and talk about these issues on the interventions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12894             I am pleased to be able to respond to the interventions, both written and presented at the hearings.  My comments will speak to, I suppose ‑‑ two general areas raised ‑‑ well actually a little bit more than that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12895             The first area of comment concerns the appropriateness of 91H as a way to address the public priority and the overall financial viability of the basic cable tier.  It comes as no surprise that the BDU's are arguing against any new service attaining the 91H MUST CARRY designation.  They have been arguing this since the MUST CARRY was created.  And no one would expect them to say anything else in their defense.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12896             As I mentioned in the presentation earlier, one of MMTN's biggest problems is that the BDU's have become the gatekeepers for the Canadian Broadcasting system.  And have the de facto power to decide what services go forward and what do not.  This creates a problem of enormous chaos, especially for aboriginal concerns, and of course, Metis specific television here in this country.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12897             While we have been arguing that the Metis Aboriginal Television Network addresses the core shortcoming in the current system, the BDU's have declined to consider carriage as they do not see the services being of value to their bottom line.  And that really is what it is ‑‑ it's the bottom line agenda, more than anything.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12898             This raises the question of who sets the public policy here, the CRTC or the BDU's.  In ‑‑ I think in a lot of people's opinions ‑‑ that when we look at what goes on in Canadian Broadcasting history, that the BDU's kind of take the approach that they are the Commission.  And they don't want their hands tied, but they don't mind tying up the Commission's hands.  In it's question, following my presentation on Tuesday, the panel indicated that they are wrestling with the question of how much is too much for basic cable, and what should be included in this package.  This is a fair question, and one that the Commission will have to answer both here and in the over the air migration proceedings.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12899             However, this may also require the Commission to consider some previous decisions that have been provided.  A MUST CARRY with fee subscriber category one status to services I would suggest, fall much lower on the list of public priorities than the Metis Mitchell Television Network.  It is a little strange to have the Commission in that position, or in the position that your hands would be tied, and that the overall explanation from Shaw is to have regulatory ‑‑ satellite BDU regulatory ‑‑ I guess definitions ‑‑ that would impose problems for you to actually make decisions on the future of Canadian broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12900             Shaw advocates deregulation.  And that's fine.  In a way, really, we look at this from the same point of view.  When I went over the interventions, I was stuck with over and over again with the same thing ‑‑ that really it goes to show that what the BDU's are asking for is that nobody be a MUST CARRY.  And if we look at this from historical past ‑‑ and I must bring up the fact of the job shops as part of this ‑‑ and the fact that we have applied now ‑‑ we have actually handed in a Category One license to you‑‑ but when I do this, I go back in history and I say ‑‑ now what happened with the job shops was it took one night for the Attorney General to decide that we were being beaten up by the newspaper, the major dailies across this country.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12901             What happens here in this instance is very similar to this Broadcasting Act.  Whether it's the Employment Agencies act, or whether it's the Broadcasting Act, it puts everybody in the same parallel situation, of chaos.  In other words, what happened was the newspapers were stating that we were in violation of the Employment Agencies Act, yet they were the ones that were bullying us and they were in the same position, so therefore, the Attorney General overnight turned around and said if they have the right to run, so do we.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12902             The same thing works within the broadcasting situation.  If we are not given the latitude and the ability to basically launch and have that same quality as spoken underneath the language of the Broadcasting Act, well then that impedes our rights, and therefore, what that does, is it creates discrimination.  And the only way to really kind of settle it is either to give us the MUST CARRY decision or to have everybody be denied.  And that's what happened in the Saskatchewan decision for the job shops.  It was either that the newspapers quit or they allow us to do our job in the job shop end of it.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12903             So the same thing works here.  We're a Metis Television Network.  We're asking for a quality.  We're asking for all the same things.  APTN has less than 1 % Metis programming on that network.  And this comes to the area of programming.  We're hard pressed to find any other broadcasting companies out there that have any more Metis programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12904             APTN and other interventions make note that Vision, APTN and others MUST CARRY and MMTN will take a market share of what they have.  Well, with only 1% of Metis content in the APTN model, we're not really taking any of their share, really.  And what it really comes down to, is the aboriginal task force on broadcasting has stated that APTN is predominantly an Inuit broadcaster.  And that's right in the actual report.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12905             MMTN has been denied access to a market share, and it's also been denied access to I guess the same things that Vision and APTN and CPAC get to enjoy, the protection under the 91H and that is what the one thing that everybody's making a big mistake on here.  Not the Commission, but the BTU's and their interventions, when they come to you and they say that we do not meet that exceptional standard for MUST CARRY, and we do as the Metis people of this country.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12906             So the CRTC points out that the programming and part of what we have to come up with ‑‑ and we must point out, APTN, Vision and others are not given ‑‑ they were not given unrealistic conditions to watch their network ‑‑ and we were given unrealistic conditions of license for decision two thousand, two, three forty five.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12907             With the BDU's being the gatekeeper, they locked us out as tight as they could.  And really ‑‑ it really makes no sense ‑‑ in a supposedly a world where they want to be aboriginal friendly.  It doesn't show any kind of aboriginal friendliness whatsoever, or a commitment to completing the Broadcasting Act.  And like I say, they have been very good at tying your hands, but they don't want their hands tied.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12908             Because of the unrealistic conditions that were placed on MMTN, most of the certainty put into ‑‑ this certainly puts us into a terrible position.  In fact, the only position that can be realized is that we were being set up to fail.  And that's the only thing that we can really honestly say.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12909             And, according to the Act, it's language of a quality ‑‑ is MMTN is denied 91H than all 91H designators should be denied, until further access and protection is granted to the Metis Mitchell Television Network.  You must do the right thing.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12910             Legally, the Counsel, or legally, you must do the right thing, and cancel all 91H licenses in Category One or Two.  It doesn't really matter.  You must let MMTN have that protection, or you must cancel that.  It is a situation of a human rights factor.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12911             The Attorney General would agree that this has been unrealistic conditions for us to launch.  We are certainly willing to ‑‑ I have had many conversations with the Attorney General's office about this ‑‑ and it would be basically because of discrimination.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12912             The BDU's must then, if the intention of the CRTC is to deny MMTN a 91H, deny all, again, networks carriage, just as MMTN has been denied, this has caused us again, a great amount of chaos.  MMTN does not meet ‑‑ or does, I'm sorry ‑‑ MMTN meets the taste test as far as the exceptional aspect of this application for 91H MUST CARRY.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12913             And I understand that the interventions came back from Shaw last night and Rogers and they were very complacent on the fact that the digital system was created and the 91H kind of ties up the digital system by granting MUST CARRY designation to certain broadcasters.  Again, though, they're not looking at the exceptional status of this.  They have ignored the exceptional status of this application to the Commission and they have done everything they can to make sure that it doesn't come to the agenda.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12914             Basically, what has gone on in the past, and through the interventions, is that there is a little bit of positiveness to it from the APTN part of it, but there's also a lot of intimidation and antagonizing to the Metis Television Network, and to Metis programming through APTN specifically.  I mean, I, as a broadcaster ‑‑ not a broadcaster, but as a producer, really don't want to do business with APTN any more.  They have not really filled the need, and they don't want to fill the need.  So it makes it completely difficult.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12915             But now that I'm now a little more understanding of the hearing process, I have to make note of the fact that it's been a learning process for me and I thank you for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12916             And on the area of programming again, we look at the programming aspect of this ‑‑ cause APTN brings this up ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12917             THE SECRETARY:  I'm sorry Mr. Schaffer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12918             MR. SCHAFFER:  I think that if they were in the same position ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12919             THE SECRETARY:  I'm sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12920             MR. SCHAFFER:  They wouldn't be able to.  I'm sorry.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12921             THE SECRETARY:  Can you please just conclude.  Your time has expired.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12922             MR. SCHAFFER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12923             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12924             MR. SCHAFFER:  All right.  Again, as I say, I don't think that if they had to go through the same thing that we do, and try to get carriage from the satellite or BTU's, without the 91H carriage, they ‑‑ you would hear nothing but chaos stories coming out of them.  We have been doing this for seven years, just on this area alone.  And it is frustrating, so with that said, I could go on and on and on, but I'm sure we can talk about other things later.  Thank you for allowing us this opportunity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12925             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Schaffer, Ms. Schaffer, Mr. Gustin, thank you very much for your comments this morning.  We have no questions for you.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12926             MR. SCHAFFER:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12927             THE SECRETARY:  And now I would ask Diversity Television to respond to all the interventions that were filed to their applications.

‑‑‑ Pause.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12928             THE SECRETARY:  Please present yourself, and you have 10 minutes.  Thank you.


REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 12929             MR. DE SYLVA:  Thank you.  Good morning, Madame Chair, and Commissioners.  I would like to introduce first of all the panel this morning, many of whom all of us who you've seen yesterday. I'm Paul De Sylva.  And this is Amos Adetuyi beside me.  And beside him is Patricia Scarlett.  Beside me on my right is Jim Byrd.  And beside Jim, is Joel Fortune, and Floyd Kane beside him.  And in the back row, Les Lawrence from Diversity, and Wayne Albo, our financial consultant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12930             Thank you for the opportunity to reply to intervention.  We have of course filed written replies to the written interventions, Madame Chair, and we have received ‑‑ so these comments will be somewhat abbreviated this morning.  I'm sure everybody will be relieved to hear that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12931             First, we would like to thank the many positive interveners in this proceeding, who wrote letters in support of Canada One TV.  Many of these interveners provided personal accounts supporting the comprehensive research in our application.  They have spoken of the challenges they face as visible minority and aboriginal Canadians in finding an outlet for their talents.  And even in seeing themselves and their stories represented on television.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12932             You will recall our existential discussion yesterday.  Many of these letters express directly the importance of insuring full representation of Canadian society on television.  You heard at first hand yesterday submissions from the prospective of a parent, second generation young Canadians, from an experienced producer and broadcaster, still waiting for change, and from a committed advocate against the marginalization and disenfranchisement in the system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12933             Personally, I was moved by what they said, and it reinforced for me the importance of what we are proposing to do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12934             Now I would like to respond to a few of the comments made yesterday by various broadcasting distribution undertakings. We were struck by how the BDU's universally each attacked not so much our application, as the entire notion of any pro‑active action within the framework of the Broadcasting Act.  Despite what the BDU's say, televisions will still be in the living rooms of homes across the nation tomorrow, and for a good many years to come.  And Canadians will continue to be BDU subscribers.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12935             We agree with the Commission that the basic level of service remains relevant.  That it will continue to be relevant in a digital environment, and that the basic level of service should and can fulfil certain important broadcasting policy objectives.  Technology has not, and it will not, render obsolete, reasoned, sensible regulation to achieve broadcasting policy objectives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12936             We were also struck by how little effort was spent by the BDU's universally on commenting seriously on the applications being considered in this proceeding, including our own.  We were gratified, however, to learn that Québecor considers our application to fulfil three out of the six criteria.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12937             Other BDU's said we didn't meet any, or that all broadcasting services met the criteria.  This is not a serious way to approach important issues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12938             Regarding the question raised by the BDU's of increasing the size of the basic service, and imposing new rules on BDU's, we note that the digital migration framework should, with time, lead to a smaller basic service, and more regulatory flexibility.  That is one of the objectives of the policy.  The cable BDU concerns seem to be in relation to the transitional period, rather than the end point.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12939             As visible minority people have been waiting a long time for change, we have some sympathy for the BDU's.  We note, in any case, that those concerns don't really apply to Canada One.  As a new service, Canada One will need to be carried by all larger BDU's, cable, and satellite.  There is no lack of competitive parity there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12940             With respect to the concerns expressed by the CCSA, Canada One has suggested carriage on larger BDU's.  The smallest BDU's represented by the CCSA would, similar to past CRTC rules, not be required to distribute our service.  We discussed yesterday, the possibility that Canada One TV could be subject to an order requiring carriage only by Class One BDU's and DTH undertakings in English language markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12941             As we discussed yesterday, we would accept those carriage terms, reluctantly, if the Commission was satisfied that carriage in Class Two systems would pose an undue burden on those systems.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12942             An argument was also made that some subscribers should not have to supposedly "subsidize" the services that would be of interest to others.  Commissioner's first and second generation Canadians buy through basic service to purchase foreign language channels.  Indeed, all visible minority and aboriginal peoples pay basic service just like any other subscriber.  The services on basic, as we have shown, which include the strongest Canadian conventional TV brands, as well as the multi ethnic services, do not adequately reflect the citizens in the highest cost, highest impact, and most intensely funded programming drama.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12943             We suggest that these individuals are already paying a much larger cross subsidy to the system, if it can be called that, than we are asking from others.  That to us, is the unfairness, that needs to be addressed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12944             We can though, agree with the BDU's on one point.  Our application, and your decision, is about choice.  Where we differ with BDU's, is that we believe that Canadian citizens who do not now see the system serving them as Canadians, deserve that choice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12945             Some may say that may be important.  But, is it exceptionally important?  One's perception on that question may depend on where you sit.  I can tell you that it is exceptionally important to me, our team, the people who have supported us in this initiative, and to many, many of the six million visible minority and aboriginal peoples in Canada.  It will also be exceptionally important to many of the one million new immigrants arriving every four years.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12946             The Broadcasting Act and Section 3.1.D speaks directly about the broadcasting system serving the needs and interests and reflecting the circumstances and aspirations of all Canadians, and reflecting the multi‑cultural and multi‑racial nature of Canadian society.  We have shown how there is still significant under representation in the broadcasting system and in its' opportunities.  This persists, despite years of initiatives and government and regulatory pressures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12947             The current state of representation in the broadcasting system sends a direct message to visible minorities and aboriginal peoples that they are not a full part of Canadian society.  We believe that this is damaging to Canada ‑‑ actually is damaging to all Canadians ‑‑ and is not consistent with the Broadcasting Act.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12948             We have shown how Canadian society is becoming more multi‑cultural and multi‑racial.  The demographic projections are all well known. It is exceptionally important that we, as a Society, act now, while we have the ability to make a difference to ease that change.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12949             We don't want to look back and think about the opportunity we missed.  The broadcasting system is a powerful social and yes, economic force, and we should not underestimate the impact that it can have.  The positive difference it can make.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12950             Look at the APTN example.  It is time, we feel, to make a bold step, that can change the poor position in which visible minorities find themselves in mainstream broadcasting in Canada.  And that will make our system even better and stronger to deal with change in the future.  Madame Chair and Commissioners, I thank you for your courtesy and attention in this process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12951             We have filed our take away work that was requested of us yesterday, regarding our nature of service and percentage of original hours.  On the question of our nature of service, we have clarified the portion regarding the qualifying conditions be met by all programming exempted on the service.  We state:

"All of the programming on Canada One TV will reflect multi‑cultural and multi‑racial themes and perspectives"


LISTNUM 1 \l 12952             Meaning more specifically, it will be relevant to, and reflect the lives, cultures, and expression of visible minorities and aboriginal people in Canada.  We have provided an explanation of how we would determine relevance for Canadian and non‑Canadian programming, and we would accept those explanations as part of the nature of service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12953             We will continue to be equally bound by our commitment to consult and interact regularly with our advisory council regarding the application of the nature of our service.  We would be pleased, Madame Chair, to answer any questions you may have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12954             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. de Sylva, and your colleagues, thank you very much for your comments this morning.  We have no further questions for you.  Thank you.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12955             MR. DE SYLVA:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12956             THE SECRETARY:  I will now ask the National Broadcast Reading Service (NBRS) to come forward.  Please introduce yourself, and you have 10 minutes.  Thank you.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 12957             MR. WESEEN:  Thank you and good morning Commissioners.  My name is Gerald Weseen.  To my left is Debra McLaughlin.  To her left is Rob Malcolmson.  To my right is Stuart Robertson.  And to his right is Betty Nobel.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12958             Madame Chair, members of the Commission, before beginning our reply to the interventions that were presented last evening, we would like to address two key concerns that were raised by the Commission following our presentation yesterday.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12959             First, the Media Access Trust, and the proposal to transfer any excess earnings from the operations of the accessible channel to the Trust.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12960             In response to the Commission's concerns, let us say for the record that we are prepared to eliminate the Trust altogether.  This means that any earnings will be retained by the licensee company, and fully reinvested in the accessible channel, and therefore the Canadian Broadcasting system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12961             Second, with respect to our proposed 20 cent pass through fee.  In response to concerns about affordability of the basic service, while at the same time taking into account the requirements of our business plan, we are prepared to reduce our requested pass through fee from 20 cents to 18 cents in years four through seven of the license term, when digital penetration has ramped up.  This represents a 10% reduction in our pass through fee.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12962             In our view, the reduction in pass through fees strikes an appropriate balance between the important issue of affordability and the equally fundamental issue of providing a high quality, relevant and engaging program schedule to Canada's blind and vision impaired community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12963             We would also like to address two proposed conditions of license discussed during our presentation.  Commissioner Cram asked what percentage of the 500 hours per year of new described programming would constitute Canadian programming.  We are pleased to advise that we would accept a condition of license requiring that 150 hours per year, or 30%, would be Canadian programming.  And this is because the bulk of the existing described programming in the system today is Canadian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12964             Next, we are prepared to accept a condition of license that no less than 50% of programming that be accessible channelling engages a third party to describe, will be sourced to description companies other that Audio Vision Canada, or any other entity related to NBRS.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12965             We continue to believe that quality of work and competitive price must be the ultimate barometer for choosing a supplier, but this minimum commitment to services other than AVC, indicates good faith.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12966             We trust this response to the issues raised during our presentation, and we confirm it for the record, that we will file written responses to the various undertakings that we discussed during our presentation by the close of proceedings on Friday.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12967             We would now like to respond to the various interventions that were presented last evening, but before we do, we would like to take this opportunity to thank the over 900 interveners that supported this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12968             The BDU's agree that this is a service that should be carried on their systems.  We heard, for example, from Mr. Engelhart of Rogers that we have lots of room, and the accessible channels should be carried.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12969             We heard from Mr. Frank of Bell Video Group, that the goal is to get as much described programming on air as possible.  While the BDU's admit that accessible channel will serve the needs of the vision impaired community, they remain steadfast in their resolve not to distribute their service other than on terms that they dictate.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12970             Madame Chair, members of the Commission, it's clear to us that without MUST CARRY status, the accessible channel will simply never become a reality.  It's also clear from the record, that there are a multitude of problems preventing the delivery of described video programming to the vision impaired.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12971             In our submission, the problems identified, not only by us in our testimony, but also by the BDU's themselves in their interventions, established quite clearly that only a MUST CARRY, 24 hour a day open description channel, can solve these barriers to access.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12972             In our presentation, we identified the accessibility challenges presented by the digital remote control.  None of the BDU's disputed this fact.  We also pointed out that high profile US acquired prime time programming is simply not being provided in described form.  Quite simply, if it's going to be described, we are going to have to do it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12973             We heard from Mr. Allan of Rogers that described video pass through as ultimately dependent upon the will of US decoder manufacturers like Motorola and Scientific Atlanta.  Without DVC capability installed in the box by the US manufacturer, it's clear that the problems with pass through will continue to plague our digital world.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12974             In our view, members of Canada's vision impaired community should not have to wait until US hardware suppliers determine if and when pass through capability will be made available.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12975             We further heard from Mr. Allan that Rogers does not control the printed programming guides that identify available described programming.  He is correct.  This is yet another barrier to accessibility that is beyond the control of the vision impaired community, and indeed, the BDU's.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12976             The BDU's were also quite forthright in admitting that what little described programming is available on the system today, is not being consistently passed through.  For example, Mr. Ferris from Shaw Star Choice stated that their analogue receivers don't accept the SAP stream, and that on the digital side of the equation, pass through is admittedly not where it needs to be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12977             And Mr. Boyd on behalf of the CCSA, described that the pass through efforts of their members as sporadic in the analogue world, and non‑existent in digital.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12978             The other key point to bear in mind is the amount of described programming that is available on the system today.  Based on current conditions of license, conventional broadcasters are required to pass through four hours per week, only two of which are original Canadian programs, and a limited number of specialty services are required to do just two hours per week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12979             We are appreciative of Bell Express View's efforts in the area of described video.  However, the fact remains that Bell Express View is only able to pass through what broadcasters are mandated to provide and only to those who choose to subscribe to satellite TV.  Bell Express View's solution is not a substitute for what the accessible channel would provide.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12980             The accessible channel would provide 168 hours per week of open described programming on one channel.  Compare this to the twelve hours per week of CTV, Global and CHUM programming that Bell Express View is currently mandated to pass through.  Only 50% of which is original.  We believe the benefit of our proposal is self‑evident.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12981             We also listened carefully to the concerns presented by Mr. Ray and Ms Leclair.  Their concern is one of ghetto‑ization.  They fear that the accessible channel will act as a substitute for the ongoing obligations of broadcasters and BDU's to provide and deliver described video programming.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12982             The record indicates that licensing the accessible channel will not be used by licensees to shirk from their regulatory obligations.  Commissioner Del Val asked each of the BDU's if they would maintain their pass through obligations if the accessible channel was licensed.  The answer in each case was yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12983             And last, but not least, is the issue of exceptional importance and the use of Section 91H.  The BDU's all deem the accessible channel not to be of exceptional importance and caution against using Section 91H in a digital world.  We disagree.  The fact is that Section 31P of the Broadcasting Act, a statute you are charged to administer, specifically requires that programming should be made accessible to disabled persons as resources become available for that purpose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12984             The accessible channel has brought together all the necessary resources to provide a 24 hour open description channel.  It has harnesses advancements in technology to achieve real time, and short turn around description.  It has identified a multitude of programming sources, and it will utilize the description expertise of a Canadian pioneer, Audio Vision Canada, and others.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12985             In short, it has presented a complete solution that overcomes all of the barriers to accessibility that have been identified at this hearing.  We should also note that the Broadcasting Act does not restrict the use of Section 91H to the analogue world.  The powers granted to the Commission under Section 91H transcend technology.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12986             That's the issue for you Commissioners, is whether you're prepared to use Section 91H to accomplish the objective set out in Section 31P, and we think you should.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12987             Betty.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12988             MS. NOBEL:  Madame Chair, Commissioners, you heard from Mr. Stein of Shaw that the digital world is all about choice.  We agree.  Clearly, the vision impaired community wants one choice, the accessible channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12989             We heard yesterday from Ms. Leclair should do the right thing.  Providing mandatory carriage for the accessible channel is the right thing, as you have heard throughout this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12990             For any proposal, there will be some opposition, but it is obvious from the many interventions that supported this application, that the vision impaired community wants the accessible channel to increase their access to, and enjoyment of, television programming.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12991             Without complaint, vision impaired cable subscribers have long supported a system that they can't completely access.  Now, the system needs to support us.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12992             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Del Val.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12993             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Thank you.  I only have one question arising from Bell Express View's intervention yesterday.  If the subscription base of DTH services that do pass through 100% of video described programming was taken out of your financial projections, would your business plan still be viable?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12994             MS MCLAUGHLIN:  I guess that depends on some of the conditions you asked us to commit to yesterday.  I mean obviously, we would have to go back and re‑work it.  I guess on a consumer basis, my concern would be that, while they provide options within the scope of what Canadian broadcasters provide now, it's really not going to improve the amount of selection in the system.  There will be no US.  There won't be a channel that you go to and it's simply description 24/7.  You do have to go through the range to find it.  And in some cases when there is no description, there's no soundtrack.  And for a vision impaired person, you wouldn't know where you are.  And in some cases, it's just the regular.  So you know, it's a long answer.  We'd have to re‑work it, but my concern would be, you're actually cutting out a whole portion of the value of the service we proposed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12995             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Thank you.  Thank you Madame Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12996             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Weseen and your colleagues, thank you very much for your comments this morning.  We do not have any more questions for you.  Thank you.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12997             THE SECRETARY:  I would now ask Avis de Recherche and Mr. Geracitano and All Points Bulletin to come to the presentation table please.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 12998             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Vous avez dix minutes pour répondre aux interventions.  Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12999             M. GÉRACITANO:  Merci.

Madame la Présidente, mesdames et messieurs les conseillers et membres du personnel, comme vous le savez, je suis Vincent Géracitano, président fondateur de Avis de recherche et All Points Bulletin.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13000             Je vous remercie, tout d'abord, de m'offrir une dernière occasion de plaider ma cause devant vous.  J'ai entendu hier soir les représentants de l'industrie et de la distribution venir vous redire qu'ils s'opposaient à toutes les demandes de reconnaissance de statut 91H quelle que soit la nature du service et la mission qu'il ait accomplie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13001             Il n'y avait aucun élément nouveau dans leurs représentations, par rapport aux interventions écrites qu'ils avaient déjà déposées.  Et j'avais déjà réfuté point par point leur argument dans ma réplique écrite.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13002             Vos journées sont longues et ma nuit a été courte.  Je ne vais donc pas reprendre ce matin chacun de ces points.  Il y en a quelques‑uns, cependant, sur lesquels je voudrais revenir en tentant d'y apporter un éclairage nouveau.  Les EDR vous ont dit hier que, selon elles, Avis de recherche et All Points Bulletin ne servent pas l'intérêt public national.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13003             Permettez‑moi d'être insolent et de vous poser la question suivante:  Qui est le plus compétent pour établir si un service contribue à la sécurité publique?  Ces quelques distributeurs, au nom de leur intérêt comme... économique privé, ou les hauts responsables politiques et milliers d'experts ouvrant concrètement en sécurité publique qui nous ont appuyés à travers de leur association ou des organismes qui les emploient?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13004             Rassurez‑vous que je ne vais pas toutes les nommer.  Mais je veux souligner, parmi les quelque 150 interventions à l'appui à nos demandes figurent, entre autres, le ministère de la Sécurité publique de l'Alberta, du Nouveau‑Brunswick et du Québec, la Gendarmerie royale du Canada, la Sureté du Québec, la Police provinciale de l'Ontario, The B.C. Association of Chiefs of Police, ainsi que The Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13005             Presque tous les chefs de police municipaux ou régionaux de pratiquement toutes les grandes villes canadiennes, de Halifax à Vancouver, en passant par St. John, Québec, Montréal, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Edmonton et Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13006             De nombreuses associations nationales et provinciales regroupant des dizaines de milliers de policiers et policières de toutes les régions du Canada.  Près de 40 maires ou conseils municipaux d'autant de villes canadiennes, des dizaines d'organismes de prévention ou de protection civile, tels Canadian Crime Stoppers Association, Service d'incendie de Montréal, Sun Youth, Jeunesse Soleil, the Missing Children's Network et l'Association de sécurité civile du Québec.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13007             Je crois que poser la question c'est y répondre.  Certains de ces distributeurs vous ont dit que même si vous reconnaissiez qu'ils servent l'intérêt public national, il n'y avait nul besoin de rendre la distribution de mes services obligatoire.  Il suffisait de les laisser négocier avec moi de bonne foi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13008             Parlons‑en.  Avis de recherche est distribué par Vidéotron à mes frais depuis octobre 2004.  Depuis ce temps et même avant, j'ai sollicité des rencontres avec tous les grands distributeurs du Canada pour les convaincre de distribuer mes services.  Je leur ai écrit et téléphoné; je leur ai transmis un dossier complet sur notre service en ondes, ainsi que les témoignages d'appréciation des corps policiers avec lesquels nous collaborons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13009             Rien ni fit.  La plupart d'entre eux n'ont jamais retourné mes appels, accusé réception de mes lettres ou accepté de me rencontrer.  La réalité c'est qu'ils n'ont aucun intérêt à distribuer des services dont la mission fondamentale et exclusive est de servir l'intérêt public national.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13010             Ce qu'ils veulent, ils vous l'ont dit, d'ailleurs, ce sont des services ayant un "mass appeal", des services divertissants, attrayants, susceptibles d'attirer des auditoires dignes des émissions les plus populaires, ce qui est en contradiction profonde avec la nature de mes services, qui ne comportent pas une seule émission de divertissement et qui se refuse à tout sensationnalisme.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13011             Leur mission n'est pas de diffuser ni de chercher à concurrencer C.S.I. Las Vegas, American Idol, Royal Air Farce ou Hockey Night in Canada.  Elle est d'offrir aux organismes chargés d'appliquer la loi des occasions constantes et quotidiennes d'entrer en relation avec les communautés qu'ils desservent et d'obtenir d'elles des informations utiles à retrouver le plus grand nombre possible des 65 000 enfants qui disparaissent chaque année au Canada, à capturer les criminels en fuite ou des personnes en liberté illégale et à prévenir de nouveaux crimes, fraudes ou accidents. Bref, rendre la société canadienne plus sécuritaire et respectueuse des lois.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13012             J'avais avec moi, hier, des responsables de la G.R.C. et du service de police de la ville de Montréal qui sont venus vous dire que ça marchait, que ça donnait des résultats très concrets, tangibles, appréciables.  Et vous avez aux dossiers publics plusieurs dizaines de témoignages d'autres corps policiers et organismes qui le confirment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13013             Quelle meilleure preuve puis‑je vous fournir?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13014             MR. GERACITANO:  The distributors also came here and argued that all that matters is that the consumer must be left with the freedom to choose.  However, for a consumer to be able to exercise that freedom, it would help if our services were to be placed on the menu.  And that is something that the distributors have failed to do, despite several years of effort on my part.  So whose freedom are they really looking out after?  The consumers, or their own.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13015             Those opposing my applications have also argued that the financial burden placed on consumers because of the additional costs would jeopardize the transition to digital.  Let's be serious.  To put the numbers into perspective, at six cents per month, a consumer would be able to subscribe to 500 years of All Points Bulletin for what is essentially the difference in cost between a regular 32 inch TV set, and an HD compatible TV set.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13016             Madame President, who can argue that 72 cents per year represents an infinitesimal fraction compared to the benefits of public security that such a service can generate.  Isn't the life a single child worth the cost of half a cup of instant coffee per year.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13017             En terminant, madame la présidente, je voudrais souligner qu'Avis de recherche et All Points Bulletin ne sont pas des services qui s'adressent à un groupe étroitement défini ou ciblé de téléspectateurs canadiens ou qui visent à répondre aux besoins ou à défendre les intérêts particuliers d'un groupe.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13018             Nos services s'adressent à l'ensemble des téléspectateurs canadiens et leur diffusion au service numérique de base contribuerait à améliorer la sécurité publique de l'ensemble de la société, des communautés et des citoyens canadiens.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13019             Je pense avoir démontré qu'Avis de recherche et All Points Bulletin servent, effectivement, l'intérêt public national.  J'ai soumis aussi tous les éléments démontrant que sans distribution obligatoire au service numérique de base, ses services, non seulement ne pourront pas remplir adéquatement cette mission, mais qu'ils seront condamnés à disparaître.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13020             Almost three weeks ago, I paid our only distributor another $52,000 as I was once again threatened with having the service disconnected.  Within a week of the payment, the phone rang once again.  It was our collection department demanding more money.  As I mentioned yesterday, despite the fact that we offer a public service that benefits the community, we must pay for doing so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13021             Some of the very same people that claim to have the consumers' interests at heart, send letters such as this one threatening to disconnect the service that provides a valuable service to the community, unless they are paid.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13022             Due to the seriousness of the matter that we broadcast, and because we are only available on one single distributor in Quebec, we are unable to generate any advertising revenues.  I suppose that if we were to broadcast images of pretty girls on a beach late at night, inviting viewers to call 900 services, we can maybe make ends meet.  But in my opinion, that would detract from the seriousness of the mission, and jeopardize our credibility as a public interest service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13023             C'est pourquoi, madame la Présidente, je vous demande de rejeter les arguments des distributeurs et de reconnaître qu'Avis de recherche et All Points Bulletin servent l'intérêt public national et de leur accorder, en conséquence, une distribution obligatoire au service numérique (au service numérique de base, c'est‑à‑dire) de tous les grands distributeurs du Canada, chacun selon la langue du marché ou de l'abonné.  Je vous remercie de votre attention.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13024             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Geracitano, thank you very much for your comments this morning.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13025             THE SECRETARY:  And now I would ask Faith and Spirit Media to come to the table please.  Please introduce yourself, and you have 10 minutes to respond to the intervention.  Thank you.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 13026             MR. ROBERTS:  Thank you.  Madame Chair, Commissioners.  Thank you for having us back.  My name is Bill Roberts, President and CEO of Vision TV and with me to my right is Brant Kostandoff, our general Counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13027             On behalf of Vision TV, we have a few brief comments in reply to the interventions, both written and verbal from the BDU's.  We appreciate that this is not strictly speaking a competitive process.  But there is an natural inclination to compare the various applications for basic carriage.  In doing so, we want to thank Québecor Media as we have found the chart in their written intervention to be quite helpful in assessing the applications against the criteria established by the Commission, and against each other.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13028             While Québecor gave Vision TV a score of five out of six, second only to MéteoMédia and weather combined, we of course would score Vision TV a full six out of six.  Where we differ is in our view, that the broad distribution enabled by basic carriage is essential for Vision TV to fulfil it's mandate.  To nurture diversity and tolerance in Canada, and to achieve the policy objective of balance, multi‑faith religious content in the broadcasting system.  The BDU's are rightfully concerned about increasing the cost of basic service.  We share that concern, and urge the Commission to exercise caution when considering whether to grant licenses to new applicants looking for guaranteed distribution with substantial subscriber fees.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13029             But that's not the case with Vision TV.  Approving the Vision TV application does not, and will not, add to the cost of basic service.  It will enable Canada's multi‑faith channel to continue to fulfil a policy, and a policy objective the CRTC has identified as a priority for the system.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13030             To sum, that may sound like an existing licensee seeking to maintain it's privileged status.  And to a certain extent, that's true.  But where interveners have suggested that such privilege is based solely on the date of licensing, in the case of Vision TV, that is not true.  Vision TV was licensed by the Commission in answer to a public policy imperative.  How to address religious broadcasting in Canada, given the challenges of single faith broadcasting in other jurisdictions, and to better reflect Canada's spiritual and cultural mosaic through television.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13031             A national, multi‑faith service was the CRTC's solution.  There is no other applicant for basic carriage that was licensed in response to a public policy initiative.  The CRTC has already found, as a matter of policy, that the distribution privilege granted to Vision TV is appropriate in the context of Canada's approach to religious broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13032             I want to spend a moment addressing the BDU's suggestion that we can rely on the market to achieve policy objectives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13033             Taken to an extreme, the argument suggests that we don't need any regulation in the Canadian Broadcasting system, that a market free of regulation will achieve the objectives of the Broadcasting Act all on it's own.  We disagree.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13034             In our view, the Chair of the CRTC had it right.  In his presentation to the CFTPA, in February, when he said, and I quote:


"...market forces are driven by strictly rational economic objectives.  They don't put any value on culture per se, yet, broadly speaking, the prime goal of the Broadcasting Act is to safeguard, enrich, and strengthen Canadian culture.  The goal thus becomes one of directing or steering market forces, so that they lead to the attainment of the objectives of the Broadcasting Act."

LISTNUM 1 \l 13035             End of quote.  There is a need for regulation to ensure the cultural priorities of the Act are being achieved, and that the broadcasting system is nurturing Canadian identity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13036             Because the basic television service is at the core of the broadcasting system, it is appropriate that it should be subjected to a higher standard of regulation to achieve the policy priorities established by the Commission.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13037             The BDU's, and Rogers in particular, have attempted to establish that the dual status services do not require basic carriage to sustain a viable business model.  But the question raised in Visional Migration framework, was not whether a basic carriage is necessary for a business model, we acknowledge many services have demonstrated success without basic distribution.  The question was whether basic carriage is essential to the business plan, and implementation of the specific commitments of the applicant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13038             For Vision TV, there is a substantive risk to viability if digital basic carriage is not approved.  But it will be impossible for Vision TV to maintain it's high level of investment in Canadian programming, to continue exhibiting 65% Canadian content, and most important, to fulfil it's mandate as Canada's multi‑faith channel without broad, national distribution as part of the basic digital service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13039             The BDU's have also argued that the exceptional importance of the dual status services have not been established.  But they have failed to address Vision TV's national and international award winning contributions to the advancement of diversity, tolerance, and religious freedom.  All of which are values fundamental to Canadian identity.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13040             The advancement and exploration of religion is recognized by Canadian society to be in the public interest.  And the Commission has held religion to be a matter of public concern.  Vision TV's exceptional importance to ensure that a balanced, civil, and diverse presentation of faith perspectives is to all Canadians.  That objective can only be achieved with Vision TV's continued distribution in the digital basic service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13041             There is no other channel that will assure the Canadian Broadcasting system reflects our nation's multi‑faith heritage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13042             Again, to borrow from the Chair's remarks at the prime time conference, the basic service should be, quote:

"a special place within the broadcasting system for Canadian voices, points of view, and ways of expressing ourselves."

LISTNUM 1 \l 13043             End of quote.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13044             Reflecting the varied religious practices and diverse beliefs of all Canadians, Vision TV is unique.  The only channel of it's kind in the world.  Vision TV makes an exceptional contribution to gain expression, and is deserving of a special place in the broadcasting system.  A place in the digital basic service.  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13045             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Roberts, Mr. Kostandoff, thank you very much for your participation this morning.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13046             THE SECRETARY:  I would now ask Pelmorex to come to the presentation table please.  Please present yourself, and you have ten minutes to respond to the interventions.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 13047             MR. TEMPLE:  If I might, just a little omission from yesterday, if I could just have a moment.  When we listed the services, or the provinces that were joining our project to disseminate provincial warnings, in addition to Nova Scotia and the Yukon Territory, we had forgotten Prince Edward Island.  And just because they're the smallest, we didn't want to further embarrass them and get ourselves in trouble, so I promised I would mention them.  So they will also be participating in the morning project.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13048             MR. MORRISSETTE:  Good morning, Madame Chair, Vice‑Chairs, members of the Commission.  My name is Pierre Morrissette, President and CEO of Pelmorex Communications Inc., licensee of the Weather Network.  With me today, to my left, are Luc Perreault, Vice‑President Affiliate and government relations.  Beside him, Sheryl Plouffe, News Editor for the Weather Network.  To my right, Paul Temple, Senior Vice‑President, Regulatory and Strategic Affairs, and Alysia Charlton, our Senior Vice‑President and Chief Financial Officer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13049             Before we address the comments of the few opposing interveners, I would like to thank the 15,000 Canadians who individually wrote in support of our application.  Almost half of these letters received by the Commission are in binders beside me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13050             In addition, the Commission received petitions containing more than 2,000 names, and we received at our offices, hundreds of additional supporting phone calls from individuals that do not have the language skills, or computer or fax equipment, to write the Commission.  Their message is unequivocal.  They asked you to ensure that our services are carried on basic for three reasons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13051             First, these Canadians believe that the Weather Network and Metro Media are a public service and essential to their personal safety.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13052             Second, they do not want to pay more for our services, and many cannot afford to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13053             Third, they do not believe their satellite and cable providers will necessarily act in their best interests.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13054             In this reply, we will address the main issues raised by the four appearing interveners who oppose our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13055             BDU's suggested that a 91H order is inappropriate in the 21st century.  They fail to understand, however, that Section 91H is technology neutral, and is simply a means for the Commission to achieve the objectives of the Broadcasting Act.  It is a mechanism to implement the criteria outlined by the Commission in it's public notice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13056             It is, and remains, a perfectly appropriate approach for the Commission to use.  More significantly, no one who filed comments in this proceeding has contradicted the evidence we filed demonstrating the exceptional importance of our services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13057             The only large BDU that applied to Commission's complete test to our services was Quebecois.  And it found that we did in fact, meet the criteria set out in the public notice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13058             The fact that other BDU's have said that none of the applicants have demonstrated the exceptional importance of their services is not surprising.  Because they do not want any applicant to be considered exceptional.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13059             MR. TEMPLE:  The second issue raised by the opposing BDU's, is that in a fiercely competitive digital distribution environment, a decision approving our application, with limit packaging flexibility and consumer choice.  The BDU market shows little evidence of competition.  BDU's life in the marketplace for high‑end, bundled customers with HD TV, and VOD offerings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13060             While the vast majority of the remaining customers have little real choice, most customers are still captive to their BDU, either because they've committed to capital investments for DTH equipment, or committed to buying bundles of services which makes switching between competitors a costly exercise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13061             Basic only subscribers are largely ignored.  The significant increases and the cost of basic service by these BDU's, which are noted in the attached table, further illustrate the lack of real competition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13062             Where else can competitors increase prices $3 at a time in unison?  A sufficiently competitive market simply does not exist to protect the interests of consumers.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13063             Opposing BDU's have also argued against approval of our application in the name of consumer choice.  In the digital universe, true subscriber choice is in practice, a myth.  It is uneconomical and impractical for consumers and distributors alike to deal in an a la carte world of 500 channels.  There will always be packages established by distributors.  These packages will always be promoted and produced by distributors.  Consumers will always be buying services they do not want because of these packaging decisions made by distributors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13064             In this case, however, consumers have told us they want the Weather Network and MéteoMédia offered as part of the basic service, and they do not want that choice made by BDU's.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13065             When rate reductions are extracted from us, to remain on basic, or when we are tiered, the financial benefit will flow only to the BDU.  The consumer will not benefit.  Where is the choice?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13066             MR. MORRISSETTE:  The next point that we wish to address is the argument by the four interveners that our programming is readily available from other sources.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13067             Literally thousands of Canadians wrote to the Commission in this proceeding to say that they depend on our programming because there are no reasonable alternatives.  They said in many rural communities and small towns, the Weather Network and Metro Media are the only source of local weather.  Even in larger Canadian centres, up to date weather and road safety information may be restricted to a few newscasts a day, and unavailable on weekends.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13068             One third of Canadians do not have personal computers in the home, let alone internet access.  These Canadians include some of Canada's most vulnerable groups, like low income families, the disabled, and seniors.  No other broadcaster provides Canadians with up to date local weather every ten minutes.  No one else has weather warnings, watches, or advisories, or takes the time to explain the significance of severe weather.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13069             No one else carries all provincial warnings, local UV reports, and pollen reports.  The programming we provide is simply not available elsewhere on a regular and easily accessible basis for all Canadians.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13070             M. PERREAULT:  Hier, les EDR vous ont dit que Pelmorex a bénéficié du statut double pendant près de vingt ans.  Nous reconnaissons ce fait et nous savons aussi qu'il a bénéficié à la stabilité de notre entreprise.  C'est certainement une des raisons principales qui font que notre entreprise est toujours, aujourd'hui, indépendante.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13071             Cette offre a contribué à l'atteinte des objectifs de la loi sur la radiodiffusion et a aussi grandement bénéficié aux consommateurs.  Mais le focus de cette instance est sur les vingt prochaines années, sur l'avenir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13072             Sans l'offre du service de Météomédia ou Weather Network au service de base numérique, les Canadiens n'auront plus accès à des prévisions météorologiques, à des avertissements et à des bulletins sur l'état des routes à un prix abordable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13073             De plus, sans l'offre au service de base numérique, notre modèle d'affaires devrait être sérieusement révisé.  Nous devrons * focusser + davantage sur les grands centres urbains et aurons de la difficulté à desservir les petites communautés rurales comme nous le faisons actuellement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13074             De plus, il serait difficile pour nous de mettre à niveau les équipements de localisation desservant ces régions rurales.  Notre offre de services dans les deux langues officielles, aux deux communautés linguistiques du Canada serait aussi mise en péril.


Il faut noter, de façon importante, que près de soixante‑dix câblodistributeurs du Québec, y incluant Vidéotron, sont intervenus dans cette instance, afin de vous dire qu'un changement dans le statut de distribution de nos services aurait un impact sur l'offre de nos services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13075             Les petits câblodistributeurs vous ont dit de façon un‑équivoque (ph.) que l'approbation de cette application assurerait que ces petits "cablos" seraient traités d'égal à égal avec les grands systèmes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13076             MR. MORRISSETTE:  If our application is denied, the only people enriched will be major BDU's operating in Anglophone markets.  Everyone else will lose.  Requiring BDU's to distribute the weather network and Metro Media as part of the digital basic service, serves the public interest and furthers the objectives of the Broadcasting Act.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13077             It is the only way the Commission can ensure that all Canadians, whether they live in rural areas, or urban communities, whether they have modest incomes, and whether they are francophone or Anglophone, continue to have access to weather, public safety, and environmental programming that is essential to their personal safety.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13078             Our services will only remain affordable and accessible to all Canadians if our application is approved.  Thank you.  I will be pleased to answer any questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13079             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Vice‑Chairman Arpin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13080             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Mr. Morrissette, or whoever, are you carried on basic, on Express View and Star Choice, or ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13081             MR. MORRISSETTE:  Yes, we are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13082             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13083             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Morrissette.

‑‑‑ Laughter

LISTNUM 1 \l 13084             MR. MORRISSETTE:  I could qualify that.  During the term of our current agreement, we are carried on basic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13085             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Okay, I understand the qualification as well as on the other side.  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Laughter

LISTNUM 1 \l 13086             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for your comments this morning.  We don't have any further questions.  Madame Secretary.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13087             THE SECRETARY:  CANAL Corporation pour l'avancement de nouvelles applications des langages and TV5 Québec Canada have informed us that they will not be appearing in Phase III.  I would now ask Canadian Broadcasting Corporation to respond to all the interventions that were filed to their applications.  Please introduce yourself.  Thank you.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 13088             MR. TREMBLAY:  Good morning, Madame Chair, Vice‑Chairs, Commissioners, and CRTC staff.  My name is Michel Tremblay, and I am CBC Canada's Vice‑President, Strategy and Business Development.  With me today are Sylvain Lafrance, vice‑président principal des services français and Richard Stursberg, Executive Vice‑President, English Television.  A la droite de Sylvain Lafrance, Alain Saulnier, directeur général de l'information des services français.  On Richard's left, is Tony Buman, Editor‑in‑Chief, CBC News.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13089             Behind us are Robert Nadeau, Marilyn Goodwin, Manager, Market Research, and Heaton Dyer, Newsworld Program Director.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13090             Our remarks are in response to interventions received both in support and opposition to the applications by Newsworld and RVI for mandatory carriage on digital basic as contemplated in the CRTC's digital migration framework.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13091             M. TREMBLAY:  Tout d'abord, nous souhaitons remercier sincèrement les quelques 200 Canadiens et associations qui ont manifesté avec force leur appui à l'égard de ces demandes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13092             Les intervenants se sont exprimés sur le rôle essentiel que joue Newsworld et le RDI, en proposant une perspective canadienne sur les événements internationaux, en diffusant les nouvelles de toutes les régions du pays, en fournissant un lien vital pour les francophones qui vivent à l'extérieur du Québec et en facilitant et en lançant un dialogue national sur les questions de culture, de société d'économie et de politique qui nous définissent et façonnent notre pays.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13093             Ils ont aussi affirmé que Newsworld et le RDI revêtent un caractère exceptionnel à cet égard et que leur mandat de service public les distingue de tous les autres services dans le système canadien de radiodiffusion.  Selon eux, ces services sont d'une importance telle qu'ils doivent être accessibles au plus grand nombre de Canadiens possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13094             Aucun consommateur canadien ne s'est opposé à nos demandes.  Ce degré d'appui est conforme au résultat du sondage que nous avons produit avec nos demandes, et qui indique que 93 pour‑cent des abonnés croient que Newsworld et RDI devraient être toujours être offerts sur le service de base.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13095             M. LAFRANCE:  Les distributeurs ont affirmé collectivement qu'aucun des services canadiens visés par cette demande, y compris RDI et Newsworld n'a réussi a démontrer son importance exceptionnelle.  Nous voulons nous opposer avec vigueur à cette position étonnante.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13096             Pour plusieurs raisons le RDI est un service essentiel qui doit être offert à la population sur le service de base des distributeurs.  Depuis le début de mon mandat, je conçois et j'explique que le rôle fondamental d'un service public de radiodiffusion est d'améliorer la qualité de la vie démocratique et culturelle de nos concitoyens.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13097             Aujourd'hui plus que jamais, j'ai l'occasion de parler concrètement de ce concept grâce au RDI qui en est un parfait exemple.  Le réseau de l'information de Radio‑Canada, en raison de son important réseau journalistique à travers le Canada et dans le monde, est le seul réseau de nouvelles francophones canadien qui, dans sa couverture des événements survenant au Canada et dans le monde entier, fouille en profondeur, expose des répercussions et offre une mise en contexte pertinente.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13098             La programmation du RDI est canadienne dans une proportion de plus de 90 pour‑cent. Ses journalistes apportent un point de vue typiquement canadien à tous les événements, qu'ils proviennent des quatre coins du pays ou du reste de la planète.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13099             Le RDI est disponible, à l'heure actuelle, à plus de dix millions d'abonnés au Canada.  En fournissant des services d'information en continu accessibles en tout temps, partout au Canada sur le service de base des distributeurs, le RDI demeure un outil important de cohésion sociale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13100             Près de un Canadien francophone sur deux accorde chaque semaine sa confiance au RDI pour se renseigner sur ce qui se passe dans le monde, dans le pays et dans sa région.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13101             Le RDI revêt clairement une importance exceptionnelle dans l'atteinte de plusieurs objectifs clés de la loi sur la radiodiffusion.  Par exemple, fournir de l'information et de l'analyse concernant le Canada et l'étranger, considéré d'un point de vue canadien, servir à sauvegarder, enrichir et renforcer la structure culturelle, politique, sociale et économique du Canada, refléter la dualité linguistique de la société canadienne.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13102             Le réseau de l'information de Radio‑Canada représente un lien vital entre les communautés francophones dispersées partout sur le territoire canadien.  RDI est le seul à pouvoir remplir ce rôle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13103             Pour la plupart d'entre elles, c'est un instrument précieux de promotion de la langue française et des valeurs culturelles et sociales du Canada.  C'est le seul réseau d'information en continu qui assure une présence et un reflet des préoccupations des francophones de toutes les régions du pays.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13104             Parmi les nombreuses interventions favorables des associations de francophones, je vous souligne, par exemple, celle de la Fédération des communautés francophones et acadiennes, un organisme national qui regroupe vingt et une associations provinciales et territoriales.  Je la cite:

" RDI représente une source de nouvelles essentielle pour les francophones vivant en milieu minoritaire.  C'est pourquoi les communautés francophones et acadiennes se sont d'ailleurs mobilisées, il y a une décennie, pour assurer que la majorité des câblodistributeurs offre RCI au service de base.  Les francophones du pays reçoivent RCI à la base... RDI à la base (pardon!) depuis dix ans.  C'est pour eux un service essentiel."

(Fin de la citation)


LISTNUM 1 \l 13105             MR. STURSBERG:  Newsworld also makes an exceptional contribution.  It delivers unparalleled international coverage with the support of 14 bureaus around the world.  The most extensive international coverage of any Canadian television news service, giving us a window on the world through Canadian eyes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13106             As a universally available service, Newsworld is overwhelmingly the destination of choice for English Canadians in times of national crises, whether it is the shootings at Dawson College, the murder of the RCMP officers at Mayerthorpe, or the SARS crisis.  It provides unmatched, live event coverage with 330 hours each year on average.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13107             It has coverage in every region of the country.  Connecting Canadians to each other in the news as it happens.  We bring the nation to the nation, through election coverage.  We cover every provincial and federal election in depth, and from beginning to end.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13108             There is extensive collaboration between Newsworld and RDI on news gathering, reporting, and documentary making, ensuring English Canadians understand the point of view and perspective of French Canada and vise versa.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13109             The BDU's have presented no evidence or analysis to challenge the case put forward by Newsworld and RDI that they make an exceptionally important contribution.  They simply do not address the merits of our applications.   Canadians, however, believe that these services make an exceptional contribution and strongly support the idea that they should continue to be universally available to as many Canadians as possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13110             The BDU's in general and Rogers specifically, claim that mandatory carriage is unnecessary.  Rogers claims that we are over estimating the impact because digital migration will not occur that quickly.  The BDU's may choose not to move services off basic, and that if services are moved off basic, any loss of subscriber revenue could quote:

"be largely offset by increases to subscriber rates"

LISTNUM 1 \l 13111             If any of that were true, we would not be here before you today.  We see the potential impact of digital migration on Newsworld and RDI as very real.  The migration framework could well jeopardize the availability of these services and their capacity to continue to provide an essential service to Canadians.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13112             The BDU's have also said that mandatory carriage is inappropriate.  We could not disagree more.  The broadcasting system in Canada is undergoing fundamental change.  All of the major news assets in this country are now held by three, and potentially only two private sector players.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13113             Consolidation creates synergies.  However, it also leads to a potential radical reduction in diversity of voice, and uniformity of editorial perspective.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13114             Newsworld and RDI provide Canadians with an important alternative source of news and a distinct editorial perspective.  In this context, mandatory distribution is absolutely vital.  To quote from the Senate Committee's report last year on media concentration:

"In a world of media concentration and cross‑media ownership, the importance of the CBC as an alternate source of news and information programming is greater than ever."

LISTNUM 1 \l 13115             M. TREMBLAY:  En conclusion, nous sommes convaincus que nos demandes prouvent que les services qu'offrent RDI et Newsworld sont d'une importance exceptionnelle dans l'accomplissement des objectifs clés de la loi.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13116             Nous avons aussi démontré qu'il est absolument nécessaire que le RDI et Newsworld restent accessibles sur les services de base des distributeurs partout au Canada pour pouvoir maintenir leur contribution unique et essentielle.  Les distributeurs n'ont présenté aucune preuve qui conteste ces aspects essentiels de nos demandes et celles‑ci reçoivent un appui unanime des citoyens qui sont intervenus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13117             Merci de votre attention, nous nous ferons un plaisir de répondre à vos questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13118             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑Chairman Arpin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13119             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you, Ms. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13120             Ma question est la même que j'ai posée à Météomédia.  Est‑ce que Express Vu et Star Choice distribuent Newsworld et RDI à la base présentement?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13121             M. TREMBLAY:  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13122             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Et c'est selon des ententes contractuelles?  C'est... parce que c'est historique, effectivement...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13123             M. TREMBLAY:  Des ententes historiques, effectivement qui ont été mises en place.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13124             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Parce que ce n'est pas la réglementation qui fait que vous êtes présentement à la base sur Star Choice et sur Express Vu?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13125             M. TREMBLAY:  Pour l'instant, oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13126             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  D'accord.  Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13127             Merci madame.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13128             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13129             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  I note that you are proposing that the wholesale rate would be the same.  And I am going to show how long I've been around, but my memory is the increase granted both Newsworld and RDI included money for the purchase of some capital.  And they were the mobile trucks.  So why would that portion of the increase continue?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13130             MR. BURMAN:  Our plan ‑‑ I was actually as you may recall, I was at that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13131             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yeah, it was a wonderful time, whenever years ago ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13132             MR. BURMAN:  A memorable moment in our lives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13133             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13134             MR. BURMAN:  I mean, I think our intention then was to use the increase to direct, to increase our ability to cover live coverage, to cover live events.  And we've done that, we've done than in a variety of ways.  Including the purchase of trucks, but a lot of our capital has been directed into other technologies which we really didn't anticipate then.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13135             I mean, I think our kind of financial goal then ‑‑ and I think we've maintained it, was to use the rate increase, keep it as such, and as the ‑‑ as our live coverage expands over the years, and it has, far more than we anticipated ‑‑ six or seven years ago, that we would use that money to provide that coverage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13136             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  Thank you Madame Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13137             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Tremblay, Mr. Stursberg, and your colleagues, thank you very much for your comments this morning.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13138             THE SECRETARY:  This completes the considerations of items 1 to 12 on the agenda.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13139             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Legal counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13140             MS DIONNE:  Mr. Schaffer, the applicant for Metis Mitchell television network, mentioned in his reply comments that they filed an application for a category one license.  I would like to clarify for the record that this application will not be considered as part of this proceeding.  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13141             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13142             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with item 13 on the agenda, which is an application by JOCO Communications Inc., for a license to operate an English language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13143             THE CHAIRPERSON:  My apologies.  The Commission is going to take a 15 minute break at this point, and allow you to collect your thoughts in between proceed ‑‑ in between applications.  We will resume at 10:35.  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 10:21 a.m.

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 10:40 a.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13144             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.  Madame Secretary.  You can call the next applicant please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13145             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with item 13 on the agenda, which is an application by JOCO Communications Inc. for a license to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Sudbury.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13146             The new station would operate on frequency 94.5 Mhz, Channel 233A, with an effective radiated power of 1,350 watts, non‑directional antenna, antenna height of 168.3 metres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13147             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Joe Cormier, who will introduce his colleagues.  You will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.  Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13148             MR. CORMIER:  Hi, my name is Joseph Cormier, the President of JOCO Communications Inc. and with me is my wife Monique Audette.  Before I start my presentation, I would like to, Madame Chair, Vice‑Chair and the Commissioner, to note a deficiency in response to a question you made in the letter dated Tuesday, March 20th, regarding CCD contributions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13149             Okay, we add in here that the question was:  please confirm your understanding that under the new policy, no less than 20% of this annual over and above CCD contribution will be allocated to factor or music action.  What percentage of your annual over and above the CCD commitment do you wish to allocate to either factor or music action, and what dollars amount would this be.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13150             It's not a big mistake, it's just that JOCO Communication confirms the understanding and we wish to allocate ‑‑ we had put 25% ‑‑ but it should be written 20%.  It's just a typo, okay, so I don't know if you want me to read all the rest of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13151             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's fine, that correction is ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13152             MR. CORMIER: Okay, thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13153             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13154             MR. CORMIER:  Thanks.  Okay, JOCO Communication will be a vital asset to the City of Greater Sudbury, because we are a locally owned and operated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13155             Our objectives will be to operate a de‑centralized business structure, where the station is locally owned and operated to serve the city of Greater Sudbury without the interference of a hierarchy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13156             The decision making process is made locally, fast and efficiently.  On the basis of greater local autonomy, we will provide the community with professionalized higher quality radio.  We're gonna know the needs of the people, because we are locally owned and operated.  We can answer questions right away when questions are asked, without going higher.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13157             We will have the power to develop local community news, information, and interest.  We will also, for example, inform people about school boards and town council meetings, school cancellation, city history.  We're getting a historian to talk about the city.  We do the same thing in our little operation in Sturgeon Falls.  It works very well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13158             We'll feature the best in citizen critics, giving reviews of local arts and entertainment.  It was a need that people were talking to us about in Sudbury.  So we're going to offer that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13159             One viable rule for radio is reaching out to people during a disaster.  We'll reach out to the community, and when in crisis, our priority is to broadcast up to the minute updates in emergency situations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13160             We will also act like a communications headquarters for local police, fire departments, city officials.  An example, when we had the power outage, we had the CEO of Sturgeon Falls to come in and do the live updates from the source itself, without us taking the information.  We got him right on the radio to tell the people of Sturgeon Falls what was going in.  It works pretty good.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13161             We are heavily invested in operating and marketing helping advertisers build their business of course.  We maintain a strong focus on connecting with the community it serves, through creating partnerships with local groups, community leaders, charities, special causes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13162             For example, the telethon.  We aired that in Sturgeon Falls.  By far the biggest local Canadian artist show I think is the local telethon, cause it's all local people. So we give some good Canadian content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13163             Also the dragon boat races, relay for life.  We always participate in that.  It's a fun event too.  So broadcasting from a local level is what will make JOCO Communications great and unique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13164             Sudbury radio history.  In the past, Sudbury had an oldies radio station, which is what we're applying for.  It is apparent it was not feasible for other operators to keep it running as such, due to high cost, resulting in a flip format, causing disappoint among listeners, advertisers, and other radio stations.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13165             Our company's projections are attainable for this type of music format, due to realistic business plan, geared to this demographic. Maybe I'll explain that a little bit more.  It's what we get from people from Sudbury.  We live there, we know what the people want, what the people will miss, and this is a big concern, this format being flipped, without them knowing about it.  And also formats being applied for and they're not playing that music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13166             I'm not putting nothing against no one here, it's just something that was told to us.  We're bringing the message from Sudbury to the CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13167             Format stability.  When radio stations change their musical format, for whatever reason, the citizens are left feeling ‑‑ feeling of importance, which has been demonstrated in several interventions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13168             Music is personal, and every generation has their favourite song.  Being a DJ for 25 years, I know how people get when they can't hear their song.  Music is part of everyday life, and people can relate to lyrics, which makes it very important to hear their favourite song.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13169             And I'm sure everyone here went to a wedding and said you know, can I hear this song.  If they can't hear it, they're disappointed.  So imagine having a format flipped, how the people must feel.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13170             Sudbury will have their oldies radio station back.  And we will never change the format.  Reasons why ‑‑ we will be operating on a realistic budget.  We have high standards of ethics, and will commit to our musical format.  We respect the importance of music to the older generation would compromise as over 60,000 in the age group of 45 and over.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13171             It is not perceived well with the music industry when a musical format is changed, especially if you're playing a kind of music, and you flip it and ‑‑ you know ‑‑ you're paying royalties on that, so these people are not getting their royalties no more, so it's not perceived very well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13172             It would take credibility away from our company.  And we respect the Broadcast Act, and the CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13173             Another reason why local ownership rules.  Living in the community you serve, we give people the ability, the voice, to voice their opinion and whether it's good or bad to comment.  It is vital for the long run that all comments be seriously taken and looked at at every angle, before making any decision.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13174             Our market study is conservative and realistic.  Conducting a market study back in August of 2005, we proved that indeed Sudbury had a market for an oldies radio station.  We believe that our projections are conservative and realistic, and will ensure success and longevity of this station.  We are committed to providing a unique oldies format for the older citizens of Sudbury for years to come.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13175             I've put here like about costs and that.  If you can't run a station cause it costs too much, or you need format, we have a solution to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13176             The benefits of lower cost of operation.  With our power being 1,350 watts, the lowest power transmitter of all applications, we will keep our costs of broadcasting low and affordable.  We will be consuming less energy, lowering costs of broadcasting to ensure format stability.  And also, it's very environmentally ‑‑ it's more environmentally friendly, using less hydro.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13177             Some bigger transmitters consume up to 35 times more power than ours.  The power we're applying for ‑‑ if you look at our engineering brief ‑‑ it'll cover the area very well.  There won't be any problem, there won't be any lack of signal anywhere.  We've already proved that.  And we believe that less cost, plus energy efficiency, equals a successful business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13178             Costs being a major factor in operating a successful business.  We believe this is a great way to reduce costs without losing quality of broadcasting.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13179             Now we're going into diversity.  The strength of JOCO Communications is in our people.  We are committed to recruiting and retaining diverse talent by creating an environment that is integrated diversity and inclusions of all aspects of our operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13180             We are an equal opportunity employer, where all will be encouraged to apply.  We will commit to reflect the cultural diversity of Canada in our programming and employment practices, especially with respect to news, music, and promotion of Canadian artists.  And emerging artists, and local artists, of course.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13181             Our strength at JOCO Communications is the diversity of our people, thoughts, and ideas, all working together to meet and exceed the expectations of our listeners, and our clients.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13182             Now they had asked me a question about internet streaming and podcasting.  Local radio broadcasting is a world that has been put on the back burner with the onset of internet networking.  We are choosing not to broadcast via the internet.  Our focus is the aging population in the community of greater Sudbury, consisting of the pioneers of our great city.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13183             We did our survey on older people, to see if they were interested in the internet, and there was no interest whatsoever.  There was some of the younger generation that do tune into the internet, but the older people, it's not a major concern.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13184             This radio station will allow our senior listener an opportunity to tune into a radio station which is not currently available to them at the present time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13185             Maybe they could throw away their vinyls and cassettes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13186             Okay, Canadian content.  JOCO Communications is pleased to provide local voices delivering important information at a community level.  Too often news of our friends and neighbours are passed over, and we miss hearing about their achievements, difficulties, and success.  JOCO Communication has always believed that Canada's strength is found in its' people.  By keeping in touch with one another, we promote our Canadian heritage.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13187             We will air the Canadian National Anthem at 7:00 a.m., seven days a week, 365 days a year.  Like we've been doing in Sturgeon Falls since the inception of JOCO Radio.  And it's very well ‑‑ people love it.  They get up in the morning, they listen to the Canadian Anthem.  Some say they salute to it, and I mean it's something that people kind of forgot about.  You know, you gotta remind them, and let's put it on every day, and it is a Canadian radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13188             We have committed to contribution to the new Canadian Development, which we have in our application, over and above to our budget.  Not only do we commit to playing 40% Canadian content, JOCO Communication can attest to playing 100% of Canadian content on Canada Day. So Canada Day is Canada, you know, we got the call signs, the fireworks, and I don't want to say too much information in case people pick it up here, but we do the fireworks, and the call signs, and it's all Canadian music that day.  It's fun, and it's great.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13189             We will also commit to air the Christmas telethon live, which we've been doing in Sturgeon Falls for the last four years.  People that can't tune into the TV, they go in their car, or the people from out of town, they could tune into the radio for the telethon.  Which is by far the largest showcase of emerging local Canadian artists from Sudbury and the surrounding areas.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13190             Over and above our CCD commitments, we will donate to local charities as part of everyday operation.  We don't wanna promise too much in case we can't fill it, so as part of an everyday commitment, which we've did in our other stations, we always gave a lot more, we'll do that as an everyday operation.  And if the Commission wants that in writing, we'll do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13191             Local and emerging Canadian artists.  Sudbury's local musicians will benefit through our show called "Homegrown".  The Canadian show on our ‑‑ we called it the Canadian show on our application ‑‑ but it's actually called "Homegrown".  This local music show features the best in emerging local talent, from Sturgeon Falls in northern Ontario.  For over four years, JOCO Communication has submerged itself in the local music scene, and it's on the cutting edge of promoting local artists who are making waves in the community.  So we take these artists, we bring them in the studio, you know, we record call signs for them, record their song ‑‑ I mean, they have their songs recorded.  So we put a call sign in front of their song, and every time their song goes on, there's a call sign that goes up in front of it.  And you know what, the people are so excited about that, it's crazy.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13192             So "Homegrown" is aired every Sunday night at 7:00 p.m. in Sturgeon Falls.  Bands featured on the show receive exposure to thousands of listeners.  From the beginning, "Homegrown" has been on the cutting edge of exposing bands such as High Holy Days.  We've had them to open up to our grand opening of JOCO Radio and these guys ‑‑ since then, they've had two music videos, airing on Much Music, and they're from Sturgeon Falls.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13193             And they also opened for the biggest Canadian act, called Nickelback ‑‑ they've opened for them in Sudbury ‑‑ which they were exposed in front of 6,000 people.  And these guys, they always come into the station.  You know, they come in and hang out and they tell us how much they appreciate stuff like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13194             Rock Wilder, from Garden Village ‑‑ its' a little village close to Sturgeon Falls ‑‑ they're from there, we air them.  We also had them on our grand opening.  We also include Sudbury bands.  Roger West and the Bounty Hunters.  Sab's from North Bay.  I'm sure a lot of people know him.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13195             Claude Braudt from Sturgeon Falls.  Pierre Gingras from Verner Yvon Serre, former resident of Sturgeon Falls, now resides in Japan.  We got his website on our website to promote his concerts and stuff.  La Jeunesse Girard, former residents of Sturgeon Falls, now live in Ottawa.  They come down lots.  We play their music on Sunday night.  Also Angele Leblanc, which is a local artist.  We've received a lot of e‑mails thanking us for promoting local artists.  But I'll get Monique to read one that we just, just got from this girl.  Monique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13196             MS AUDETTE:  From Nancy Doubet.

"To JOCO993@yahoo.ca.

Monday, March 19th, 2007.

Subject:  Local artist


Angele Leblanc.  Hi guys.  I'm Angele Leblanc's mother, Nancy, and I want to thank you sincerely for playing Angele's songs on the local artist spots you have.  She was so happy and excited to hear herself on the radio.  It gave her a big boost to keep going.  As she is only eleven, she is achieving a great deal.  Even recording her very own song, with the help of European manager and recording studio out in Belgium.  She will be registered with SOCAN as well, coming in about a month or less.  I also wanted to know if she could have her website featured on your website page.  She wants to also put a link on her page to your web page as well to thank you playing her songs, if that's okay.

If so, here is her web page."

LISTNUM 1 \l 13197             They indicate the web page.

"Please let us know at this e‑mail.  We thank you sincerely and enjoy your station.  You have a great selection of songs.  Keep up the good work.  On behalf of Angele and myself, we thank you."

LISTNUM 1 \l 13198             Now because this was written on March 9th, I haven't had an opportunity to respond.  And we will do so, and we will place her website on our website, as requested.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13199             MR. CORMIER:  Thank you.  These are only a few of our local artists featured on Home Grown.  We have probably over 150 fro the area, musicians that were never featured before and now they're actually featured.  So people actually listen to their music.  Pierre Gingras came in the station one day, he says, hey, Joco, he calls me Joco, and gave me a big hug, and he showed me ‑‑ he took a photocopy of a SOCAN cheque.  That guy never received a cheque in his life, he's 52 years old.  He was so happy, he says it's the best gift I ever had.  It's just the thought, he told me you know, he says, the system works, you know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13200             It's nice, you played our songs, we're registered through SOCAN, I got a cheque here, so I'm bringing you a photocopy.  So we got it up by the station.  If you want a copy, we'll send on to CRTC also.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13201             Like I said, in Sturgeon Falls ‑‑ that's what goes on in Sturgeon Falls.  I'm just trying to create something here to show you how we promote local and emerging artists, which is very important.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13202             In Sturgeon Falls, Home Grown is a show that welcomes all local artists, regardless of race and culture.  So everybody's welcome here.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13203             JOCO Communication will air a new music show in Sudbury also called Home Grown.  This show will feature special interviews, CD's, and songs by local bands.  JOCO Communication will create a forum for local unsigned band that is really unique in a market of our size, while exposing our audience to local talent.  In addition to Home Grown, we are committed to promoting new, local emerging artists through local concerts, events, contests and festivals, and cash donations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13204             Home Grown in Sudbury market will be featured two hours a week on Wednesday nights, due to the bigger population.  And also, on 80% of our musical format, a minimum of 10% will feature emerging local and Canadian artists, which will be aired during higher listenership, rather than late at night and early in the morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13205             Here's an example of how we're gonna do this.  Every ten songs played, one song will feature a Canadian and emerging artist, or local artist.  We're not gonna compete with other stations for the category of the song.  But it's gonna be new music that complements the format.  And we've checked with the older generation ‑‑ do you mind if we put one local or emerging, brand new artist on the format at every ten songs ‑‑ they said not at all, and we won't tune it out.  So I believe that will work really good.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13206             To conclude the presentation, we think JOCO Communications should be awarded this broadcast license for the following reason:


LISTNUM 1 \l 13207             We are the first company to submit an application of a radio station in the city of Greater Sudbury back in October, 2005.  We are locally owned and operated, making our main focus towards promoting local values and cultures which meet the needs and interests of the citizens of the greater city of Sudbury.  We have a proven track record of our commitment promoting musicians and composers from the local community.  We are offering the unique listening format with realistic projections, and instead of competing, we will increase diversity in the Sudbury radio market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13208             We will provide live coverage on community events, up to the minute information in time of regional and national crises.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13209             We have committed to airing a minimum of 40% Canadian content.  We have committed to airing emerging artists during peak hours of listenership.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13210             We have committed to creating a more energy efficient environment by transmitting at a lower power, which in turn is financially and environmentally friendly.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13211             As a bonus of course, being locally owned and operated, our mandate is to create a model radio station in Sudbury where if you need to address any concerns, I the owner, will be accessible.  Thank you.  If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13212             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Cormier, Ms Audette, thank you very much, good morning, and welcome.  I was kind of glad, Mr. Cormier, when you were talking about how the older generation doesn't want to throw away their vinyl or cassettes, that you didn't mention 8 tracks ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter

LISTNUM 1 \l 13213             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Cause it would remind me of how many times I had to buy my favourite music and how long I've been around, so thanks for that.

‑‑‑ Laughter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13214             MR. CORMIER:  Oh, I'm there too.

‑‑‑ Laughter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13215             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I want to talk first about your format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13216             MR. CORMIER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13217             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your proposed format.  I heard what you said in your opening statement about a station that had flipped and therefore the market misses the oldies format.  But through your assessment of the market, you say the format is lacking, and in response to deficiency questions in a letter dated January 5th, you said:


"We were able to prove there was indeed a market for a new oldies radio station in the Sudbury area last November when we applied for our broadcast license, which triggered the CRTC to launch a call for applications on July 15th."

LISTNUM 1 \l 13218             What did you mean by that?  Why do you think that because it triggered a call, it shows that there is a lack of this format in the Sudbury market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13219             MR. CORMIER:  Well, Madame Commissioner, I just figured that if they ‑‑ cause they've asked me ‑‑ they said do you still wanna go on with this license ‑‑ I said of course I do.  So you're gonna have to submit it, cause we're gonna call for other competing applicants to apply for a radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13220             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you saw it as ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13221             MR. CORMIER:  So I figured ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13222             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The possibility of competition for the format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13223             MR. CORMIER:  Yeah, yeah.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13224             THE CHAIRPERSON:  As opposed to competition for the frequency?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13225             MR. CORMIER:  Yeah, yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13226             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, that's good.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13227             MR. CORMIER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13228             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Do you consider your proposal to be competitive with other applications in these proceedings?  Wrightsell for example has applied for an older adult contemporary format.  Halliburton ‑ new easy listening, including adult standards, soft adult contemporary, pop instrumentals, light classical, jazz, and folk and roots music.  Do you consider your application to be competitive with those?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13229             MR. CORMIER:  Oh, yes, I do.  And especially for the costs of operation.  Like in the past, if a company ‑‑ and I'm not gonna name anybody ‑‑ couldn't do it, and they had to quit the format, and there is excuse is cause we can't afford to run that format ‑‑ well, guess what, you gotta go to lower power, and you gotta cut costs down to be able to run that format.  More realistic.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13230             I know we're not the big ‑‑ how can I say that ‑‑ we're not sophisticated I guess you could say, like the other stations.  We're a more small town station, okay.  And what we're gonna run here ‑‑ we're gonna make it on a budget that will allow that format to run forever.  You know, we're not gonna change it around.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13231             Cause if you'd see the people's reaction when a format is changed, you would not believe it.  I live in Sudbury, and I've experienced it, twice now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13232             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So your argument is that because you will be able to keep your costs down‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13233             MR. CORMIER:  Yes, exactly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13234             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The format is more sustainable, long term, than perhaps another applicant who may have to switch formats because their costs are higher than yours, and may have to switch to a more popular format, or a format that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13235             MR. CORMIER:  Exactly.  You got that right on the money, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13236             THE CHAIRPERSON:  It's why I get to sit up here.

‑‑‑ Laughter.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13237             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You proposed to devote 5% of your overall music to sub‑category 3, which is of course, jazz and blues.  Now your application was in fact submitted prior to the release of the new commercial radio policy, but are you aware that the new commercial radio policy requires that broadcasters devote at least 20% of their overall music to sub‑category 34, that is jazz and blues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13238             MR. CORMIER:  Okay, we could fix that for you and re‑submit, you know, if that's the only problem here.  We got no problem, cause the thing is, I wanna mix it in the regular format as well with blues and jazz.  Cause there's a lot of these Canadian artists, and you know, I've seen that in a lot of things, where people say ‑‑ well, you know, if we put too much emerging artists, we're gonna lose our audience.  That's not true.  Cause you know what, there's commercial ‑‑ there's radio stations playing commercials that are a lot longer than a song, and people never tune it out.  I've heard commercials on some stations where they got stop sets of six minutes, and a song is only three minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13239             So I'd rather hear a song from a brand new artist for three minutes, than listen to commercials for six minutes.  So I don't believe that if you play emerging artists, that the people are gonna tune out.  It's not true, and there's a lot of emerging artists out there.  Especially in the blues and jazz that I've never been exposed to a market like Sudbury.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13240             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right, but I ‑‑ well I understand ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13241             MR. CORMIER:  Yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13242             THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ that you can play emerging artists within the category of jazz and blues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13243             MR. CORMIER:  Yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13244             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The question is, is your format viable if we are to impose a condition of license that says 20% of your music overall must be comprised of jazz and blues?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13245             MR. CORMIER:  It is viable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13246             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And would you, are you prepared to accept that as a condition of license?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13247             MR. CORMIER:  Yes, I am.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13248             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now because we've made this change, and originally you had said 5% of your music overall would be jazz and blues, we've now  increased it to 20%, we would have to now adjust the other categories, obviously.  And I don't know if you are prepared to do this now, but perhaps if you'd like to think about this, and do some homework ‑‑ because originally you said pop, rock and dance, 32%, easy listening, 32%, folk and folk oriented, 9%.  So we would have to adjust those percentages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13249             MR. CORMIER:  Okay.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13250             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And perhaps, I ‑‑ I don't know, are you prepared to do that now, or would you like to think about that and perhaps file at a later time with the Commission.  I'll let legal ‑‑ tell you when it is that you would file that information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13251             MR. CORMIER:  Well, what is better for the Commission at this point.  Like, do you want us to do that ‑‑ like ‑‑ you know, within a day, or is that how you're talking, or ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13252             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah, we would probably look for it by the end of the day.  Legal counsel?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13253             MS DIONNE:  Yes, or at the reply stage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13254             MR. CORMIER:  Okay, I'll have it for  the reply stage for tomorrow, thanks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13255             MS DIONNE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13256             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You've agreed in your application, and you've repeated it today, to accept as a condition of license to broadcast a minimum of 40% Canadian content on this service.  Would that apply to the broadcast week and Monday to Friday from 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., the regulatory periods?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13257             MR. CORMIER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13258             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you'll accept that as a condition ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 13259             MR. CORMIER:  Yes, definitely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13260             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  In terms of emerging artists, thank you for more detail in your presentation this morning.  But in the ‑‑ in response to deficiencies in a letter dated January 5th, you say that you will be playing emerging artists from Category 3 only, Category 3 music only.  So what factors did you take into consideration in making that decision?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13261             MR. CORMIER:  Okay, the factor that I took is cause I don't wanna ‑‑ like, the other stations ‑‑ there's a whole bunch of stations in Sudbury, and if they followed the new rules, they're gonna have to play emerging artists and it's all in Category 2, so they're gonna be exposed to the ‑‑ quite a bit of people there.  The thing is about Category 2 music ‑‑ I wanted to match the format, you know.  It's hard to ‑‑ let's use for example, you're listening to Elvis Presley, or you, know, Sha Na Na, or whatever song's playing, and then Nickel Back comes on with a really heavy song, it doesn't really mix with that format.  But we could probably go with a Category 2 easy listening music for emerging artists if we have to go with Category 2.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13262             So I had figured a Category 3 is music that's not being exposed there already, so we wanted to give more exposure to that.  Like the Sons of Maxwell from Timmins ‑‑ nobody's ever heard of these guys ‑‑ and they're folk, you know, and they got really good music.  And there's so much of it, like there's so many artists like that from Alberta, Nova Scotia.  Also blues singers in Toronto, you know.  They play in these little bars, but these guys are so good.  Like nobody's ever been in the expos to those emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13263             So we figured a Category 3 would probably be the way to go.  But I'll note that on our Home Grown show we'll feature all local emerging artists.  In any category, it's gonna be a local show, and the people that I was speaking to ‑‑ the older generation ‑‑ they just love to hear that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13264             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And so, would it be 10% of your Category 3 music would be devoted to emerging artists, or 10% of your music programming overall?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13265             MR. CORMIER:  The music, the format would be 10%.  Probably more than that, but a minimum of 10% featuring local emerging artists.  Now from Category 2 or 3 it's gonna be hard to define, cause the local musicians, when they just start, they're not really categorized yet so, it's hard to define if they're ‑‑ you know what I mean ‑‑ they could be Category 2, Category 3, we're not sure until they get signed up with SOCAN.  And we help them out to do that too.  But I mean before they're signed up, it's pretty hard for them to get the exposure.  It's pretty hard for them to get that status of which category it is.  So I'm not sure how to answer your question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13266             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, we're looking for an indication as to what you would propose as a commitment to exposure of emerging artists as a percentage of your music program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13267             MR. CORMIER:  Oh, it's a ten per cent overall.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13268             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, and this is for my own education.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13269             MR. CORMIER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13270             THE CHAIRPERSON:  In your presentation this morning, when you talked about the local artists, that you recorded their CD, and you put a call sign.  What does that mean?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13271             MR. CORMIER:  Do you know what I do ‑‑ it's a call ‑‑ well, it's a call sign ‑‑ it's an I.D. for their song.  What they do for example, I'll say it in French here ‑‑ Si, à Claude Proulx... vous êtes à l'écoute de la station locale JOCO Radio, puis... this is our song ‑ It's...  You know, Pierre Gingras...  Hey!  This is High Holy Days and you're tuned into JOCO Radio, here's our brand new song, River Sticks, on her brand new album.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13272             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13273             MR. CORMIEER:  You know, bang, and then their song starts ‑‑ so this way here if we don't have guys ‑‑ like we have people in the daytime, but at night time, you know, sometimes we run voice tracks.  Like a lot of other operators do.  So we have a call sign.  So if there's nobody to introduce their song, you know what, they're still gonna be introduced.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13274             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you use it as a means by which to not only identify the artist, but identify the fact that JOCO Communications has supported them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13275             MR. CORMIER:  Yeah, exactly, and the artists really like that, because you know if somebody in town is driving around, they say hey, I just heard a song by High Holy Days last night at 1:00 in the morning, a really heavy tune, but it was good, you know.  Cause that's what we do, yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13276             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I'd like to now move to your spoken word programming and as it's been proposed in your application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13277             MR. CORMIER:  Okay.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13278             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are proposing a total of 19 hours of spoken word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13279             MR. CORMIER:  Yes, I am.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13280             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All of which will be locally produced, and the majority is comprised of news, and surveillance as well as a number of community minded programs that have been detailed in your application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13281             But when I look at your staffing levels, you include four on‑air staff, four sales people, one station manager, and one technician.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13282             MR. CORMIER:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13283             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can you take us through how the four on‑air personnel would produce this amount of spoken word programming?  In other words, it's a substantial commitment to spoken word, with four on‑air staff.  What are their functions, and how are they going to achieve this level of spoken word programming?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13284             MR. CORMIER:  Okay, good question.  We're gonna ‑‑ well, they're gonna work on four shifts.  We usually just have one person on the air, compared to having two of them at a time.  So that there, you know, if you get two people on air to do your morning show, and your day show and stuff, it uses twice the amount of staff.  So like I say, we're trying to cut costs to see how this station's gonna go, and we'll probably include more staff than that.  This is just a projection of what we're gonna do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13285             And to get our local content, well, the person's gonna want air, and they're gonna have to work, you know.  They're gonna have to do the news and the weathers, and when they're not doing that, they're gonna be pre‑recording some of it, you know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13286             Like the ‑‑ the updates are gonna be pre‑recorded.  The weathers will be pre‑recorded.  You know, you gotta, at the top and the bottom of your hour, is your news and weather.  But on ‑‑ at quarter after and quarter to is usually your news update and weather.  It's kind of a little pre‑recorded thing, and then you ‑‑ so like that ‑‑ we're gonna get our spoken word.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13287             Plus, we get a lot of locals.  Like the police show, it's all locally done.  We usually pre‑record it for reasons that sometimes if a person talks, like myself, if I talk too much, I could say the wrong thing, you know.  So we kinda record a ten minute show and we edit it and put it on air.  So that's the ten minute there of, you know, the spoken words.  And we'll repeat that program in the afternoon, so that the officer doesn't have to be in the area of your station no more.  He could go back to work, so there's a lot of it that's volunteer from the community, to get them involved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13288             The Mayor of West Nipissing, she's on the radio a couple of times a week, you know, with our on‑air guy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13289             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But with this complement of staff, who for example, would act as the News Director, to ensure accuracy of the news ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13290             MR. CORMIER:  Oh, the Manager.  The Station Manager.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13291             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Station manager.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13292             MR. CORMIER:  Oh yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13293             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good.  Would the Station Manager also be an on‑air person?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13294             MR. CORMIER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13295             THE CHAIRPERSON:  At times.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13296             MR. CORMIER:  Yes, for sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13297             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What assurances can you give us that this programming will be compelling enough to attract a radio audience to your station in this competitive market?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13298             MR. CORMIER:  I, that's just something that I know.  I know how people are.  And I know people wanna hear Elvis Presley, and like the music ‑‑ the music, and the small town feeling that we're gonna put on this station ‑‑ the local artists that are gonna come in.  I got ‑‑ I got people, like, for example, Northern Music Resource ‑‑ this guy here, like, he's been in bands ‑‑ he's a ‑‑ he's a ‑‑ he's a studio musician.  I'm getting all excited here, cause I really like this stuff ‑‑ and what he's gonna do, he's gonna create programs, and they're gonna keep the interest of the people there.  Cause it lacks that.  They want the small town feeling back and I will bring that to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13299             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that will be achieved through your spoken word programming as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13300             MR. CORMIER:  Oh yeah, the spoken words, plus our shows.  A lot of the retired broadcasters too would like to make another appearance on an oldies station.  A lot of people wanna hear these guys, you know.  Rick Nelson is one guy that ‑‑ that was working for an oldies station in Sudbury before.  And he's ready to come back, you know.  So, we got lots of people like that ‑‑ Bob Woods.  They all wanna do radio shows.  So we're gonna include them, and it's gonna bring our spoken word up probably to more than 19 hours.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13301             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  I heard you this morning in your presentation when you talked about how efficiently you're going to run this station.  But, in this application, the average salary of the on‑air talent seems to be around $23,000 a year.  On what basis did you forecast this salary level, and how viable is it to attract on‑air talent that is going to be able to produce this level of spoken word programming ‑‑ a level of spoken word programming that the audience will want to listen to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13302             MR. CORMIER:  Okay, I'm pretty confident about that because of the applications I've already received for jobs in this market due to a lot of people getting laid off from bigger operations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13303             A lot of people out of school, that wants to learn about broadcasting.  I got people from St. Marie, people from everywhere.  But a lot of people from Sudbury wants to come and work, and we base that salary, as a starting salary of course, until they could prove themselves.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13304             And, like I said, we're not gonna ‑‑ you know, if we need more staff ‑‑ we're making more money, we'll hire more staff.  But that ‑‑ to run like this ‑‑ the people are ready to take the wages that we have there.  Cause I've, I've spoken to them.  I've did many interviews.  And there's a lot of people, believe it or not, it's not a thing of money.  It's a thing of being on air, and ‑‑ you know, especially the older people.  There's a lot of people that are in their 50's and 60's that are applying for jobs, and it's just a ‑‑ you know ‑‑ I used to do radio, you know, I miss it, I wanna come back and work for you.  And you know what, I've got enough money, I don't really care about the wage ‑‑ so ‑‑ I'm not saying that we're gonna do that to everybody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13305             We're gonna hire some young people that have the knowledge of new technology.  But I also wanna bring the old school guys back and women back to radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13306             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Are you planning to do any voice tracking, or automation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13307             MR. CORMIER:  Well, we're gonna voice track some certain things, like I said, weather scans, cause you can't have a guy going on, or a woman going on, steady doing a small ‑‑ a small ‑‑ how can I say ‑‑ a small update.  But we'd like to voice track the evening hours, like you know.  It's a 24 hour operation.  So, yes, we're gonna voice track some.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13308             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So how are you defining the evening hours?  From what period to what period will the radio station be voice tracked?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13309             MR. CORMIER:  Well, we want to voice track from 11:00 p.m. until probably 6:00 a.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13310             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And does that include the weekends?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13311             MR. CORMIER:  Yep.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13312             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And will you be live on the weekends, during the day?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13313             MR. CORMIER:  Oh yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13314             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Before 11:00 p.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13315             MR. CORMIER:  Yeah, a lot of ‑‑ there's ‑‑ weekends I find we get a lot of live on‑locations too, so is that considered live, or ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13316             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm sorry ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13317             MR. CORMIER:  A live on location ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13318             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13319             MR. CORMIER:  Where you bring your vehicle ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13320             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  Do you anticipate any synergies with your station in Sturgeon Falls?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13321             MR. CORMIER:  No, not for the oldies station, cause we don't wanna image it the same way.  This is oldies, the other one is more of a top‑40 type radio station.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13322             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So not even for any of your news programming, for example.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13323             MR. CORMIER:  Maybe, we're not sure yet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13324             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Any back office operation synergies ‑‑ accounting?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13325             MR. CORMIER:  Yeah, accounting will take care of the two operations.  So we'll use the accountant from Sturgeon Falls to, you know, kind of help us out in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13326             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that also goes to the efficiencies of your cost efficiencies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13327             MR. CORMIER:  Well, there we go. Yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13328             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right, now in terms of CCD.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13329             MR. CORMIER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13330             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for your responses of March 20th.  That certainly helped to clarify your CCD contributions and your further correction this morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13331             MR. CORMIER:  Okay.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13332             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I just have one question about the bursaries to which you have allocated $2,000 to the two School Boards.  Four bursaries, and/or to purchase musical instruments.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13333             MR. CORMIER:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13334             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Have you had discussions with the Boards to determine how this $2,000 will be broken out, that is, would they prefer it to be in the form of bursaries, or would they prefer it in the form of purchasing musical instruments?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13335             MR. CORMIER:  Okay, thanks for the question.  I did spoke to some Principals from schools, and the Board.  And what we're gonna do is ‑‑ I told them right off the bat ‑‑ don't get your hopes high ‑‑ cause I don't know if this is gonna happen.  But if it happens, we're willing to give a couple of thousand dollars to the two School Boards and you guys are gonna decide where it goes.  You know, if you need some musical instruments one year ‑‑ but the thing is, if I commit to ‑‑ let's say to an annual bursay, like an award for ‑‑ a scholarship ‑‑ so if we commit this scholarship, we wanna keep that commitment to a scholarship, and so he said, whenever we had the application to go see him, and they'll use the money, no problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13336             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And have you ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13337             MR. CORMIER:  I don't know what to answer, it's like ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 13338             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's fine, but if it is scholarships, have you had discussions with them to determine ‑‑ or even as a preliminary discussion ‑‑ the basis on which these scholarships will be awarded?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13339             MR. CORMIER:  Well, it would have to do with music.  Students going to the music field, let's say, like, for an example ‑‑ when Shania Twain went to school, you know, she was the best in her music ‑‑ cause I know her, she was the best in her music class, whatever.  They sent her to school.  I'm just giving an example.  Or, somebody ‑‑ like in Sturgeon Falls, it's a very musical town ‑‑ so if somebody's got good grades, and they're into the music ‑‑ you know, if they won contests ‑‑ they're gonna award it to that person that's most ‑‑ it's probably gonna go by points at school, they were telling me.  So, I'm not sure what they're gonna decide on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13340             But we're gonna work together and we're gonna make sure that happens that proper way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13341             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And if you are awarded this license, would you be prepared to file with the Commission letters with these School Boards or the Principals with whomever you make these agreements, outlining, in fact, how this money will be spent?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13342             MR. CORMIER:  Definitely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13343             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  My last set of questions have to do with your business plan, which is also a prompt for my colleagues to let me know if they have further questions for you, when I'm done.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13344             MR. CORMIER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13345             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Given your assertion that this format is missing from the Sudbury market, what is your projected audience share, during the first term of the license, if it is granted?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13346             MR. CORMIER:  Our audience share.  First of all, like I was saying ‑‑ the population ‑‑ the aging population ‑‑ is getting up there, and the baby boomers, which I'm at the start ‑‑ I think I start in the middle of that ‑‑ is very high.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13347             These people have a big interest for this music.  It's like ‑‑ I don't wanna project too high to make myself ‑‑ this share of the market would probably be maybe 18%.  Would that be something ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13348             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Starting in year one?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13349             MR. CORMIER:  Yeah.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13350             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Fifty plus, or forty‑five plus target audience typically is not the most attractive to advertisers.  What factors did you take into consideration in arriving at your advertising projections?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13351             MR. CORMIER:  Well, first of all, I talked to a lot of advertising before I even applied for this license, cause I wasn't gonna put all that money in there for nothing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13352             Talking to a guy like Sturgeon Falls Auto Sports and Marine, Mike Renault, which has a company now, it's called Toilies.ca ‑‑ I'm just gonna talk about this company, cause this company is where ‑‑ is most of the advertisers, you know, the coffee shops, and these guys selling bikes ‑‑ and he told me, he says, you know what, these bikes ‑‑ when you get that station going ‑‑ or if you know ‑‑ cause I did talk to him about the questions I had for him.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13353             And he said his biggest market is like these people doing these rallies and that, that are buying brand new bikes and they're spending the most  money ‑‑ are the people in the age group of 45 and up.  Cause they got the disposable income.  Their kids are all older, they got money to spend.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13354             The same as the Harley Davidson owner ‑‑ if you see them riding on the highway, lots of them have grey hair.  And that's the audience I'm looking at, and those are the people that are gonna listen to the radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13355             Like the whole club wants to listen ‑‑ the car club on Sunday nights, they're so excited at about the music of the beach music that the car dealers and that are all in, you know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13356             So I've projected on a lot of ‑‑ how can I say it ‑‑ a lot of the people I've spoken to, and the businesses that tell me that these ‑‑ they wanna aim to these people, cause right now they can't.  Cause the musics are ‑‑ you know, they're top 40 and ‑‑ They're good stations, don't get me wrong, and they make ‑‑ you know, they do pretty good.  So the projection that we got is ‑‑ like I said ‑‑ it's realistic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13357             I brought the numbers up and I brought them back down to be able to run it in my projection.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13358             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I did see that, in response to deficiencies, you did say that you had talked to advertisers in the market.  And my next question was, but you've already answered it ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13359             MR. CORMIER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13360             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Who some of these advertisers were, so thank you, we've eliminated one question so far.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13361             MR. CORMIER:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13362             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What percentage of your advertising revenues will come from existing radio stations, new advertisers, and growth in advertisers budgets?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13363             MR. CORMIER:  Growth in advertiser ‑‑ growth in advertiser's business ‑‑ just by going by a few people I was talking to from other markets ‑‑ I would like to advertise in our market.  Sorry.  Probably 15 or 20 per cent, from ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13364             THE CHAIRPERSON:  From growth in advertisers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13365             MR. CORMIER:  From growth, from growth, yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13366             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And from existing radio stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13367             MR. CORMIER:  Well, we'll probably take a little bit away from them too, maybe, I don't know, 10 or 15 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13368             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that would leave you with a balance of 75% ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13369             MR. CORMIER:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13370             THE CHAIRPERSON:  From new advertisers.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13371             MR. CORMIER:  Well, new advertisers that have never been on the radio ‑‑ but the thing is, we still have the national ads too that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13372             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Aren't the main percentage of national advertisers that you have projected?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13373             MR. CORMIER:  I'd project another 20% there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13374             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  You've still tot 55% to go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13375             MR. CORMIER:  55% to go in new businesses, like ‑‑ like, myself.  I'll give you an example again.  We had a baby shower for our baby, and the biggest gift was bought by our grandmother, which is 75 years old.  And she bought that at ‑‑ you know ‑‑ stores like Wal Mart ‑‑ and boutiques ‑‑ they do a lot of boutique shopping.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13376             A lot of specialty items ‑‑ specialty coffee shops ‑‑ where seniors go.  A lot of these places too were ‑‑ like the YMCA ‑‑ and different businesses to attract that crowd.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13377             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And those businesses do not currently advertise on the radio?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13378             MR. CORMIER:  Well maybe they do.

‑‑‑ Laughter.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13379             MR. CORMIER:  Well, you just got me on the question, I'll have to think about it a bit, and write it down.  Like I don't have all the answers.  I got probably lots of the answers you're looking for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13380             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I mean because the reason for the question is to assess what impact you will have ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13381             MR. CORMIER:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13382             THE CHAIRPERSON:  On existing radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13383             MR. CORMIER:  Yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13384             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And on the market in general.  So that's really the purpose of the question.  And if you say that, from existing radio advertisers, you're only anticipating a 10% impact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13385             MR. CORMIER:  It'll probably be a bit more than that, I'm sorry.  It'll probably be up to maybe 20%.  That's what I ‑‑ I don't have the papers in front of me, I'm sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13386             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, you've provided us with some information, but you're forecasting a rather healthy business, that in the first term, will have a net income starting at about $63,000 in year one, rising to more than $800,000 in year seven.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13387             MR. CORMIER:  M'hmm.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13388             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What's your secret?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13389             MR. CORMIER:  What's my secret ‑‑ the secret is low cost, and that's if I hit ‑‑ if I hit the projections.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13390             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And if your format‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13391             MR. CORMIER:  I'll tell you what my secret is.  It's a launch package where you pre‑sell your station to the people, so you can get these things going.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13392             Like you ask about the first year.  You gotta plan it ‑‑ you gotta plan your grand opening, you gotta plan your launch.   And you gotta plan it good.  And you get people on board.  And the first year when you open, you should be making a profit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13393             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, well, thank you very much.  Those are my questions, and Commissioner Cram has questions for you now.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13394             MR. CORMIER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13395             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  Mr. Cormier, I'm curious and in fact this whole process has made me very curious.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13396             Vous êtes francophone?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13397             M. CORMIER:  Oui.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13398             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And there are 28 pour‑cent de francophones à Sudbury...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13399             And why have you not applied for a French station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13400             MR. CORMIER:  Cause there was already a French station, and I don't wish to compete with any other radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13401             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  But there's only one commercial francophone station in Sudbury ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13402             MR. CORMIER:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13403             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And there's three commercial English stations in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13404             MR. CORMIER:  Well my survey indicated that they wanted an oldies radio station.  That's like an oldies format, so that's what we're applying for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13405             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay, so the francophone station is an oldies station also, is that it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13406             MR. CORMIER:  No, no, it's not.  I'm not sure, I don't listen to it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13407             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  H'mm.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13408             MR. CORMIER:  So I can't really ‑‑ I know the thing is about that station ‑‑ you know, they do play a big variety of French station ‑‑ I just ‑‑ it wasn't the market that I was looking to serve.  I'm more of a professional in an English radio station.  I know the music better.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13409             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right, okay.  On page eight of your presentation today, the bottom bullet.  On 80% of our musical format, a minimum of 10% will feature emerging and local Canadian artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13410             So ‑‑ and I thought I just heard you answer the Chair ‑‑ that you would be doing 10% emerging and local and/or local Canadian artists.  So not just on 80% of your format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13411             MR. CORMIER:  Home Grown it's called.  It's a two hour local Canadian artist show.  Plus we want to feature it twice in a week.  But you know what, we gotta pick up the music first.  I don't wanna say ‑‑ you know ‑‑ we'll put it four hours a week, when I can't deliver it.  Two hours, I will deliver it, no problem.  I'm not gonna promise something I can't do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13412             And also on Sunday mornings, we feature a lot of ‑‑ a lot of our local musicians ‑‑ it's more than every ten songs ‑‑ it's like every three songs.  So I'm just going minimum ‑‑ minimum ten, it'll probably be a lot ‑‑ a little bit more than that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13413             So that's where my reasoning is for the 10%, okay?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13414             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yeah, I hear you, but is it a minimum of 10% overall, or is it a minimum of 10% of 80%?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13415             MR. CORMIER:  Okay, it's 10% of overall.  That is my mistake, I'm sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13416             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I hear you.  Okay, thank you very much, Madame Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13417             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑Chairman Arpin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13418             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you, Madame Chair.  Mr. Cormier, in the ‑‑ did I hear you well when you said to the Chair that ‑‑ when she asked you about your first year market share ‑‑ that you answered 18?  An 18 market share for year one?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13419             MR. CORMIER:  I just gotta think about that for a sec, okay.  I'm just calculating.  Yeah, yeah I did say 18.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13420             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So you did say 18.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13421             MR. CORMIER:  I'd like to look ‑‑ I wanna make sure I'm answering this right, but I did say 18, yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13422             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So you did say 18.  And you're comfortable keeping 18 as a market share twelve plus?  Or were you talking twelve plus, or ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13423             MR. CORMIER:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13424             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Or 35 plus, or ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13425             MR. CORMIER:  No, 45 plus, sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13426             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  45 plus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13427             MR. CORMIER:  Yeah, 45 plus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13428             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13429             MR. CORMIER:  The younger generation‑‑  there's lots that are ‑‑ I'll just explain.  There's lots that showed interest in hearing the station when they're at their grandmothers, or their uncles, or their aunts, you know.  I wanna make it like a family radio ‑‑ on Sundays, you get to tune in.  So the 12 to 45 market, I'm not sure exactly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13430             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So it would be 18 ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13431             MR. CORMIER:  18 for ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13432             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And if we were to take it on a two plus base, only for matter of comparison with the other applicants, so we'll use the same base for everyone ‑‑ being 12 plus ‑‑ what will be your market share?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13433             MR. CORMIER:  I don't know if I understand the question.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13434             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Je peux vous la poser en français?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13435             M. CORMIER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13436             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Ce que je cherche à savoir, c'est votre part de marché pour les...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13437             M. CORMIER:  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13438             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  ... l'auditoire 12 plus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13439             M. CORMIER:  Oui...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13440             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Pour avoir la même base de données, avec tous les autres requérants.  Donc, est‑ce que vous êtes...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13441             Bon.  Vous m'avez dit tantôt que c'était...  Vous visiez 18 pour‑cent pour la première année...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13442             M. CORMIER:  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13443             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  ... pour 45‑64.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13444             M. CORMIER:  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13445             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Et si je l'amène... si on le ramène sur une base de l'ensemble de l'auditoire mesuré par BBM, qui va être 12 plus qui est la...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13446             M. CORMIER:  Hum‑hum.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13447             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Est‑ce qu'on parle ici... d'une part de marché de quel pourcentage?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13448             M. CORMIER:  Bien, tant qu'à moi, ça ne sera pas un très gros pourcentage de plus, parce que c'est un petit peu dur à figurer.  Eux autres, on dirait qu'ils veulent aller plus dans... écouter du Top 40, puis ça, du 12, aller jusqu'au 45, ça je sais...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13449             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Non, non.  Mais je ne parle pas du 12‑45, je parle du 12‑64...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13450             M. CORMIER:  Du douze...  Oui, oui, du 12 aux 100 ans, disons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13451             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13452             M. CORMIER:  Oui.  Il faudrait que j'aille avec un autre trois pour‑cent sur le top des 18, probablement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13453             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  En plus?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13454             M. CORMIER:  Non, non, ça va être moins, monsieur le commissaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13455             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Ça va être beaucoup... ça va être beaucoup moins, là...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13456             M. CORMIER:  Oh!  Excuse!  Excuse!  Oui!

LISTNUM 1 \l 13457             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Ça va être beaucoup moins?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13458             M. CORMIER:  Oui.  Ah!  Okay!  Du...  Oui, okay.  Je comprends qu'est‑ce que tu veux dire.  Peut‑être un...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13459             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Mais là, à titre... à titre d'indication, là, parce que c'est des données publiques, si HNO, lui, fait 16.3...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13460             M. CORMIER:  Hum‑hum.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13461             CONSEILLER ARPIN: ... 12 plus.  Bien c'est sur que si HNO, dans son groupe primaire...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13462             M. CORMIER:  Ah!  Non, non.  Non.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13463             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  ... il va faire beaucoup plus?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13464             M. CORMIER:  Oui, oui, oui.  Exactement.  Je dirais un 2 à 3 pour‑cent, monsieur.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13465             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Dans l'ensemble.  Donc vous dites c'est trois part de marché, 12 plus?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13466             M. CORMIER:  Oui, probablement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13467             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13468             M. CORMIER:  Je n'ai pas vraiment...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13469             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Non, non...  Mais ça fait...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13470             M. CORMIER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13471             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  D'accord.  Ça clarifie un peu le...  En fait, je pense que c'est effectivement quelque chose dans cet ordre‑là qui va être... qui risque d'être la réalité.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13472             Now if I could get back to the finishing of emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13473             MR. CORMIER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13474             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  There was ‑‑ you had a discussion with both the Chair and Commissioner Cram, but you ‑‑ have you defined, other than Home Grown artists, what is an emerging artist for you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13475             MR. CORMIER:  I'll get that for you okay.  We got it here ‑‑ I know in my own words, that it's an artist that ‑‑ I better get the information ‑‑ I don't wanna say the wrong thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13476             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Well, I see that in the deficiencies, that you used the definition that has been developed by the CAB.  And which is an artist that up until twelve full months after the date their first selection reaches the top 40 on BDS or media based all format chart, or becomes gold certified for the first time.  So that's the definition that you used.  Do you think it's ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13477             MR. CORMIER:  Yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13478             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Do you think it meets the specifics of your format?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13479             MR. CORMIER:  Oh, yes it does, especially in Category 3 music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13480             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  We're now talking Category 2.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13481             MR. CORMIER:  Oh, okay, Category 2.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13482             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  The popular music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13483             MR. CORMIER:  The thing is about the popular music ‑‑ the only thing I wanna do ‑‑ I wanna play emerging artists ‑‑ there's no problem.  I didn't want to compete with the other stations too much and get them all ‑‑ you know how it is.  And I didn't want to put stuff ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13484             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  But in your format, obviously, I don't think emerging artists ‑‑ it's a puzzling situation, because obviously if you play oldie music, there's not that many new artists in the oldie music.  Mind you, they could be alike, and new musicians even playing the same old ‑‑ the same material ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13485             MR. CORMIER:  Yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13486             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  The same material that Glenn Miller and Tony Bennett have done, but ‑‑ and they are totally new to new recording artists, but there are not that many.  But the finishing that I just read ‑‑ and that's the one you use, meets really the specifics of the format in which you have applied for.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13487             MR. CORMIER:  I believe it does.  I'll give you my reason for this.  In Sturgeon Falls when I started the JOCO Radio, we started something new there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13488             We had 20% French, and you know, top 40, we'll mix it in with the local artists.  People ‑‑ what are you talking about, it's not gonna work ‑‑ I mean, I'm putting local artists from every type of music ‑‑ and emerging artists ‑‑ I've asked the older generation ‑‑ the people in retirement homes that Monique and I went and interviewed ‑‑ they would love to hear the new music from Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13489             It's gotta be Canadian content, of course.  They're gonna ‑‑ they're gonna ‑‑ like High Holy Days ‑‑ it's kind of a heavy thing, but the grandmother listens to it, you know what I mean.  So they're emerging, they're new, and they really enjoy to listen to their songs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13490             But you can't put like 3 or 4 in a row, cause they're gonna tune out.  But one ‑‑ like at the ‑‑ 10% of the overall music ‑‑ I'm sure will be acceptable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13491             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And what will be the median age of your listener, and which demographic will it be?  Will it be male, or female or ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 13492             MR. CORMIER:  Oh, that's a mix, and it's just about 50/50.  In our survey, I think it's a little bit more female than male.  Demographics, 40 and up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13493             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Forty and up.  The median age.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13494             MR. CORMIER:  Median age?  Qu'est‑ce que ça veut dire "median age"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13495             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Je veux dire l'âge... quand vous parlez à votre... d'histoire, vous êtes même vous‑même un DJ.  Vous avez fait ce métier‑là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13496             M. CORMIER:  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13497             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Dans votre... mentalement, l'auditeur que vous voyez devant vous c'est...  Vous venez de me dire que c'est plus généralement... c'est plus une femme qu'un homme, mais il a 40, il a 45, il a 50 ans, il a 65 ans?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13498             M. CORMIER:  Oui, c'est le...  C'est plus dans les 50‑60 qu'on regarde...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13499             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Puis tu (inaudible).

LISTNUM 1 \l 13500             M. CORMIER:  Peut‑être bien dans les 60.  Ça ferait‑tu... ça fait‑tu votre affaire?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13501             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Non, non.  C'est votre réponse, là...


LISTNUM 1 \l 13502             M. CORMIER:  C'est‑tu 60...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13503             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Moi...  Je ne négocie pas, là, je cherche une réponse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13504             M. CORMIER:  Ah!  Okay.

‑‑‑ Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13505             Ça serait plus dans la soixantaine...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13506             Retirement age is more of ‑‑ cause there's a big ‑‑ a big gap of people there.  Age group ‑‑ Elvis Presley ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13507             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  What is the size of that population in Sudbury?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13508             MR. CORMIER:  Oh the size of the population ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13509             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Of that age group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13510             MR. CORMIER:  Oh, that age group ‑‑ it's 18 % of the population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13511             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  It's 18% of the population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13512             MR. CORMIER:  Approximately.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13513             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Selon Statistiques Canada, c'est 14.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13514             M. CORMIER:  Okay...  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13515             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Oui, 14.  Those were my...


LISTNUM 1 \l 13516             MR. CORMIER:  Yeah, you're right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13517             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Those were my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13518             MR. CORMIER:  Okay, thanks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13519             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Del Val.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13520             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Thank you.  Just one question.  I was just interested ‑‑ in your opening statements ‑‑ you said ‑‑ you asked the audience ‑‑ would you mind if I put in a new emerging artist, say every ten songs.  And you said they didn't mind.  Now, who did you ask?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13521             MR. CORMIER:  Well the survey we did.  The survey was all based on this format.  So we conducted a survey and that was one of the questions ‑‑ we said okay ‑‑ they said okay ‑‑ an oldies station, okay, yeah, we'd like one.  So I said okay, listen ‑‑ if we ‑‑ cause the emerging ‑‑ the new artists ‑‑ like, it's more of a local artist.  Emerging artists ‑‑ we kinda ‑‑ there's a lot of artists there in Sudbury that we spoke to, and that was their response.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13522             That out of every ten songs ‑‑ how can I say it ‑‑ even if it's not a strong song, they'll listen to it.  But if you go too much, you gotta be careful too with that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13523             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13524             MR. CORMIER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13525             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  So, the ‑‑ it was an actual survey question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13526             MR. CORMIER:  Yeah, it was a survey question, plus after we did our sport letter campaign.  Which we had to do ‑‑ a petition that we did for the people that were unable to use computers and that, so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13527             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13528             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Legal counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13529             MS DIONNE:  I only have one question. You've committed to a 10% emerging Canadian artist commitment.  Would you agree to have this by way of condition of your license?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13530             MR. CORMIER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13531             MS DIONNE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13532             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much. I'm now going to give you a couple of minutes to give us your best pitch as to why you believe your application would serve the Sudbury market the best.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13533             MR. CORMIER:  We at JOCO Communications are locally owned and operated.  Sudbury is where we live.  We purchase our groceries there.  We play sports.  It's where we hang out with our friends and family.  We go to the YMCA with Monique and the baby.  It's a great place to live.  I'm really happy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13534             We have the privilege to experience what our city has to offer, which is great, we have so many things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13535             We are members of clubs and charity groups.  That matters to the ‑‑ to Sudbury, to the city of Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13536             We also know what Sudbury needs, and what Sudbury wants.  As far as for music, and what they wanna hear on the radio.  And comments they could make to the radio station owner.  Which is something that's lacking a bit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13537             We know what the people from Sudbury needs.  Again, I am repeating myself.  We met with local entertainers, and we will meet their needs and expectations.  They need to be heard, and we're ready to offer that.  We've proved that in our other radio station.  We're ready to do that there too.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13538             In order to serve a community, you need to know a community.  By being local residents from Sudbury, we understand the needs and wants.  JOCO Communicaton is the only applicant that is a local operator.  That will be a local operator.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13539             And in closing, I would like to take this opportunity to thank Madame Chair, Vice‑Chair, and the Commission, and of course, all who supported our application for JOCO Communications Incorporated.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13540             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  We will now break for lunch.  We will resume at 1:15.  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 11:47 a.m.

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1:19 p.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13541             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13542             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with Item #14 on the agenda, which is an application by William Wrightsell, on behalf of a Corporation to be incorporated, to be known as Nickel Star Broadcasting, for a license to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13543             The new station would operate on frequency 94.5 Mhz, channel 2322A, with an effective radiated power of 1,500 watts, non‑directional antenna, antenna height of 108 metres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13544             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. William Wrightsell, who will introduce his colleagues.  You will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION


LISTNUM 1 \l 13545             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Thank you.  Commissioner's, Counsel, and CRTC staff.  Thank you for the opportunity to present this application on behalf of Nickel Star Broadcasting for an FM broadcast undertaking in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13546             I would like to introduce my team.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13547             Firstly, Dr. Thomas Dignan, medical professional who has provided health services to hospitals and First Nations communities in northern Ontario for over thirty years.  Dr. Tom, as we like to call him, is a Queen's Golden Jubilee medal winner, a National Aboriginal Achievement Award winner, and most recently, the recipient of the Order of Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13548             To my left is Michael Comuzzi, a long time associate of Dr. Dignan's, with a friendship that has spanned over 25 years.  Mr. Comuzzi is President of Lakehead Motors Ltd., Northstar Mercedes Benz, Hertz of Thunder Bay, and most recently involved in the operations of Ottawa Dodge here in Ottawa Hull.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13549             Wayne Plunkett is beside him.  He is a broadcast consultant who has offered assistance to us during the application process.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13550             And I am Bill Wrightsell, the owner of Wrightsell Advertising, a full service advertising and marketing company, which has offices in Thunder Bay and Toronto.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13551             I began my career as a radio announcer and reporter and later worked in radio sales at CFPA, CJLB, Thunder Bay.  I continue to work with radio stations in both media buying and client promotion capacities.  I have a deep‑rooted passion for radio and the influence it can have in the life of a community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13552             I worked with Mr. Comuzzi for over ten years as his advertising agent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13553             Our application began as a simple conversation at Mr. Comuzzi's dealership in Thunder Bay back in 2003.  We discussed what we liked and disliked about local radio as we often do, and our visions on how a radio station could better serve the needs of the community, both the public and the business community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13554             We felt that based on the state of the Thunder Bay market, it would be unlikely that a station license would be granted in the near future.  And I had been engaged by two clients to purchase their time in Sudbury, the Ontario Public Health Association, and Equipment World Incorporated.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13555             At that time, with the Sudbury stations operating under a management agreement, I was amazed at the difficulty in purchasing this air time, receiving audience data, and public service support for a non‑profit organization like OPHA.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13556             After further researching and visiting the Sudbury market in the summer of 2004, I began to construct the application you have before you today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13557             All three of us are deeply committed to northern Ontario, and have an understanding of the challenges and opportunities that exist.  I will be moving to Sudbury to operate the station.  Tom will liaise with the aboriginal community, and actively contribute to the station's programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13558             Michael, who for the past year, has travelled between dealerships in Thunder Bay and Ottawa, will occasionally travel to Sudbury to offer his management and sales expertise to the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13559             The City of Greater Sudbury is an anomaly in northern Ontario, experiencing growth and prosperity in recent years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13560             Just last year, two of the world's largest mining companies, CVRD and Extrata, purchased Inco and Falconbridge for a staggeringly high value for their mineral assets.  These acquisitions show a high confidence in long term commitment to the citizens and the workforce of Sudbury.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13561             Even better, you can't move the rock to Mexico or another country.  Sudbury's mining industry will be serving world demands for many years to come.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13562             According to the CIBC World Market Reports Economic Index, Sudbury ranked seventh out of the top 25 cities in Canada.  Sudbury has not seen the licensing of a new commercial radio station in over 25 years.  Every other market over 100,000 from market 17 to market 30, has benefited from the licensing of at least one new commercial station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13563             Now about the programming.  The spirit of our application is to strike a successful balance between addressing the Commission's needs for providing reasonable levels of diverse programming, and keeping our proposed station viable and attractive to businesses and advertisers.  Businesses, advertisers, same thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13564             The format, as we researched the demographics of Sudbury and compared that to the current radio services available, we identified a substantial void for listeners aged 40 plus.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13565             According to Statistics Canada, Sudbury's median age is 40.4.  That's 3.2 years older than the Ontario average of 37.2.  Yet most of the English radio formats skew to a younger listener, with the exception of CIGM Country, which serves an older audience, but only those who enjoy country music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13566             Based on our research, an adult standards and more format consists of a mix of adult contemporary, adult standards, and oldies best addresses this programming void.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13567             The closest existing format would be the adult contemporary station Easy Rock.  Based on two air check samples taken in 2005, and again in 2006, it was determined that Easy Rock's music selections contained a very contemporary sound with over 50% of their selections recorded after the year 2000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13568             It also revealed that a good number of artists from radios past 40 years are not finding a home on local radio.  Artists like Frank Sinatra, Joni Mitchell, Ray Charles, are not being exposed currently.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13569             Newer artists such as Molly Johnson, Harry Connick Jr., Diana Krall, are also not readily available on local radio.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13570             There is a great universe of artists and composers that define the programming void.  To help us define the precise shape and texture of the proposed format, we created a number of artists group clusters in our survey to reflect the music styles that make up an adult contemporary and more format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13571             Classic vocal remakes and folk artists ranked the highest in our research, at over 70% acceptance.  This was followed by soft pop, oldies, classic vocal, modern nostalgic, adult standards, and legends.  Instrumentals ranked at the lowest on the acceptance scale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13572             We provided the music list and percentage breakdowns that reflected these findings.  Of course, for maximum impact, we've also added those music styles with limited availability in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13573             For example, styles like class vocal remakes are not currently being played on Sudbury radio and we have modified the percentages in our brief to reflect that reality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13574             To market our station, we felt that we needed a positioning statement that reflects the music diversity of the format.  The Universe is such a statement.  The Universe is a brand name that we will trademark to reflect the wide variety of musical choices that we are making available to listeners.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13575             On the Universe, you'll hear the classics like "I Left My Heart in San Francisco" and "Mac the Knife" and you'll also hear today's biggest artists who have also given the old standards a whole new spin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13576             Artists like Rod Stewart, Carly Simon, Matt Dusk, and Michael Buble, recently released CD's embracing the classics and in doing so have achieved real commercial success.  This music is hip again.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13577             This is a made in Sudbury music format, created in Sudbury, for Sudbury.  Not simply a cookie cutter music list where music is rapid ‑‑ I'm sorry, a music list ‑‑ I'll redo the line here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13578             This is a made in Sudbury music format, created in Sudbury, for Sudbury.  Not simply a cookie cutter music list replicated across multiple markets as is currently the practice by some national and northern Ontario broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13579             But the music format represents just one aspect of our plan.  In the on demand world that we're now entering, where music is rapidly becoming an interchangeable commodity, we believe that our long term success will spring from the roots deeply planted in the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13580             It is on this basis that I would like to address what we see as the four pillars that define our application.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13581             The first pillar, news and information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13582             The second, community access to non‑profit groups.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13583             Third, aboriginal programming, including the addition of aboriginal news to Sudbury's community, and four, local talent access and initiatives along with benchmarks for exposing emerging talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13584             We are acutely focused on addressing the concerns in pillar one, which is news and information.  We're addressing the concerns expressed openly by the Commission and the many comments by local residents and organizations, such as the Friends of Canadian Broadcasting, looking to restore strong local news coverage in the Sudbury market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13585             It is clear that Sudbury doesn't need more features, or entertainment, or cruiser reports.  What they need is a news department.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13586             We will offer news every hour, seven days a week, including local news programming each hour from 6:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., including live local newscasts on weekends from 10:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13587             Our news people will not be expected to twin as morning show co‑hosts, or announcers acting as news readers.  They will be actual news writers and reporters who will be solely responsible for the news gathering and news presentation of our station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13588             We will offer the largest commitment to news coverage in the city, with a total of 245 minutes of live, locally produced news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13589             Add to that the use of broadcast news during evening and some weekend hours, and our daily news and information programming from the aboriginal voices network.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13590             In all, we offer a total of 493 minutes of news programming per broadcast week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13591             In a deficiency response document, 2005‑22, it was stated that all three existing FM stations offered a combined total of 232.3 minutes of news coverage per week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13592             We are offering 245 minutes of local news, 188 minutes of broadcast news, 30 minutes of aboriginal voices news, and 30 minutes of aboriginal voices information programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13593             This strong commitment to news exceeds the totals of all three FM stations combined.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13594             Our news department will consist of three experienced, full‑time news people, including a news director, news announcer/reporter, and a junior announcer/reporter who, as well as one part‑time reporter stringer.  This full complement of staff represents the largest commitment of all six applicants before you here today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13595             This comprehensive local news reporting operation will allow us to research stories, attend and report live from City Council meetings, and from the scenes of breaking news events in the city and region.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13596             DR. DIGNAN:  Pillar two aboriginal programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13597             The First Nations of Sudbury make up a substantial portion of the population base with 7,385 identified as aboriginal in greater Sudbury.  The needs of this group are not being served by the National Broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13598             To expose the news of relevance of this sizeable portion of the Sudbury, we will air five minutes of All Nations news from the Aboriginal Voices Network that will be slotted in prime time at 6:00 p.m. Monday through Saturday.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13599             We will also air a half hour specialty news and information program from Aboriginal Voices Network on Sundays at 10:00 a.m.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13600             We will also produce from our Sudbury studios, one hour program dedicated to Sudbury's First Nations.  I will act as host of this program.  This program will focus on presenting aboriginal culture, music, and information on local events.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13601             I will also conduct interviews and offer perspectives and stories from members of Sudbury's First Nations community, drawing on my experience of over thirty years, and my desire to affect positive change to the health of the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13602             I will offer valuable health information and advice during this program.  I will conduct interviews and engage experts of the health community to discuss health and lifestyle subjects of interest to both First Nations community and the community at large.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13603             Radio is a medium that is readily available to the aboriginal population, and I am certain this program initiative will be successful in improving the lives of Sudbury residents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13604             More importantly, our station will represent inclusion of First Nations community into Sudbury's radio spectrum.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13605             I would just also like to include here that aboriginal is a recently coined word by government, which includes First Nations, Metis, and Inuit, and Sudbury has a large Metis population.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13606             MR. COMUZZI:  Support for non‑profit groups.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13607             In our business careers, each of the founding partners in this organization have volunteered countless hours and invested heavily in supporting groups and organizations that contribute to the success of our community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13608             As such, we believe a good community broadcaster has an obligation to nurture and encourage the activities of non‑profit groups and organizations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13609             We will make available ten minutes of daily air time for the use of community groups, social agencies, and non‑profit organizations to present their message, elevate their profile, and encourage their fund raising efforts without cost or paid component accompanying their request.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13610             Our application is widely supported by the Sudbury non‑profit sector, including the United Way, the CNIB, and the Arthritis Society, just to name a few.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13611             We will make available no less than 20 to 30 second commercial messages for the use of these organizations each day from 6:00 a.m. to midnight.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13612             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Our next pillar revolves around Canadian talent development.  To encourage the increased exposure to Canadian artists, and more importantly, to new and emerging artists, we will commit to air 40% Canadian content throughout the broadcast day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13613             To encourage new and emerging artists, we commit to a minimum of 15% of our Canadian music selections will meet the CIB's definition of an emerging artist.  We will not just plot the music of these artists, but we intend to creatively brand the music category as a flag waving favourite.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13614             The mature adult listener tends to crave familiarity.  Therefore, it is essential to the success of the station that emerging artists be revealed with background material to expose their deeper personal identity to the listener.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13615             We envision this commitment will enhance the exposure of Sudbury music talent.  As a new entry to the Canadian Broadcast system, we have devoted significant resources to the Canadian talent initiatives.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13616             Our three initiatives include:  a yearly contribution of $4,000 to assist two promising grade twelve students in their pursuit of a post‑secondary career in music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13617             $8,000 for our Sing Like a Star Talent Search Competition.  This money will be presented to the winners of both the general category, and the aboriginal category for the purchase of recording ‑‑ of purchasing recording time at the studio of their choice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13618             To reflect the Commission's new benchmarks for basic CCD contributions and a 20% requirement for above and beyond contributions, we will present $26,200 to factor over the seven year license period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13619             In total, we have committed a direct benefit above and beyond contribution of $103,700 for the seven year license period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13620             We believe that artists need more from radio than money.  They need air play, they need attention, they need encouragement.  That can only be provided by a station that is connected to the community with local ownership.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13621             The Universe will also offer live local program hosts throughout the broadcast week.  This addresses some of the dissatisfaction expressed by local residents regarding the widespread use of voice tracking and syndicated programming on Sudbury radio.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13622             We intend to resist this practice by employing announced talent that will be locally based to reflect the unique flavour that exists in the Sudbury market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13623             Over 121 hours of our programming schedule will be live and locally produced Monday through Sunday, from 6:00 a.m. to midnight.  The only exceptions will be programming from the Aboriginal Voices Network, and Broadcast News.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13624             MR. COMUZZI:  Our application is widely supported by numerous members of Sudbury's business community, recording artists, health professionals, Sudbury First Nations, and City Councillors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13625             We have also garnered significant support by the citizens of greater Sudbury, including 200 signatures endorsing our application and various letters of support, including 45 e‑mails through our website, NewFMforSudbury.com.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13626             If there is one market in the country that will support a stand alone operator that is committed to serving the local community, we are certain the market is Sudbury.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13627             Our pillars to building a great radio station are firmly focused.  Strong local news coverage, strong support for non‑profit groups and organizations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13628             Strong support for Sudbury's First Nations community.  Strong support for local talent and emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13629             We respectfully ask that the CRTC grant us a license to contribute to the diversity of voices in the Sudbury market and the Canadian Broadcast industry.  This concludes or presentation, Madame Chair, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13630             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, and I did see you sitting in here patiently waiting for us.  And I will now hand you over to Commissioner Cram for questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13631             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you gentlemen.  Welcome to our hearing.  I would just want to get a little better clarification of where you're planning to go.  And you talked about the hole in the market being 40 plus, skewing to women.  And I'm asking myself, is it because 40 plus, skewing to men, like country music, or like, how did you ascertain that?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13632             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  I think when you look at a contemporary format, it does tend to skew more female, in about a 60/40 breakdown, in any experience that I've ever seen with ratings.  Contemporary stations usually will break down like that.  So when we're offering a 40 plus product which is somewhat adult contemporary, but it's also older adult contemporary, those breakdowns will likely be the same, I would say around 60/40.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13633             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay, so you more chose the format than choosing the demographic, is that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13634             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  I did ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13635             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You started with format and then you went to ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13636             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13637             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And then the demographic followed.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13638             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  I was looking for a hole in the market, and there had been a hit station, up until two years ago, that was playing music for a younger audience, and that was changed to a ‑‑ I'm talking about Big Daddy, actually ‑‑ the New Cap station ‑‑ and so now they're targeting, you know, more of a 35, 40 year old with their station.  And really what they're ‑‑ what we're trying to do is also find a hole for the strongest advertising group.  I think that when you look at a 40 plus audience, that's a huge demographic.  These people have money, it's the baby boomers, and I think the station has a better chance of succeeding.  I think if we came in here and offered a programming that was targeting a younger audience as a stand alone, I think we would probably be in the same boat that New Cap was in two years ago when they changed format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13639             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13640             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  We believe there is a hole in that 40 plus demographic, and it's ‑‑ it was quite obvious to me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13641             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm.  And the format, if I understand, adult standards and more, includes classical, vocal, remake, folk artist, does it, or not?  Or you're going to include classical vocal remakes.  And I'm at page three of your presentation today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13642             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  I believe there was a breakdown in the second supplemental brief that we submitted after the deadline.  Or actually, at the ‑‑ after the call had been put out, we had applied about a month after JOCO actually, and when the call was made, we took that as an opportunity to provide you with other supplemental information.  So there is a breakdown here of where we think the percentages will break down on the song list.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13643             Adult standards, 25%, soft pop, 25%, and folk artists, 15%, oldies, coming from the sixties, 10%, and classical or remakes, 10%, legends, 10%, instrumentals, 5%.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13644             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13645             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  And like I said, that is in the material.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13646             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yeah.  And how is that different from JOCO in their application today?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13647             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  I think, from what I heard, he was looking for more of an oldies skew with his format.  And I think, you know, we're looking at including some contemporary artists as well, so you know, you would hear a new artist on our station.  You could very well hear someone like Molly Johnson, or Matt Dusk, or Divine Brown.  Those are all fairly new artists that have come out in the last couple of years, and we would include those.  You know, as long as the material was appropriate for our format and for our sound.  They would be included as well in our breakdown.  And they are in our music list that we've submitted as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13648             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And Haliburton also seems to be having somewhat similar format, and how are you different from their proposed format?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13649             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  In reading theirs ‑‑ and again I don't know if I want to speak about each format of the other people ‑‑ but my interpretation of it would be that they sounded like were going after a little sound than us.  So it could actually be ‑‑ you know our average listener could be around the 43, 44 range.  Their listener could be more in the 55 range, as an average age.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13650             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13651             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  I got the feeling that their brief ‑‑ the Haliburton brief ‑‑ was skewing an older audience than what we have projected.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13652             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And median age, that you would be targeting?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13653             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  A median age that we would be targeting?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13654             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13655             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Um, I'm thinking it's gonna be around the 43, 44 year old.  Like I said to you before.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13656             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You said average before.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13657             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Oh, I'm sorry.  Well, I think that by average, I would mean that that would be the sort of break point in the middle.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13658             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So that's the person you're targeting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13659             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13660             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  And why do you think your format is better than JOCO ‑‑ that propsed by JOCO or Haliburton?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13661             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  The JOCO format, like I said, I think they're more oldies oriented in their‑‑ how they looked at things ‑‑ as well as Haliburton's.  I think we would have to skew a little bit younger in order to survive as a stand alone, quite frankly.  I ‑‑ but be a little bit older than Easy Rock currently.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13662             As I had in my brief, there was a breakdown of a couple of days where I had listened.  I had recorded the music, and then went back and checked when those songs were released.  And the Easy Rock, their tendency was 50% of the songs had been recorded after the year 2000.  So it was a very contemporary sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13663             We would fall somewhere in the middle between I think what the other proposals are proposing, and what Easy Rock is currently delivering now.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13664             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So, you're saying as opposed to JOCO and Haliburton, who you believe would have higher median ages, that you have to skew younger in order to cover a larger part of the demographic.  Is that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13665             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  I think that ‑‑ in order to ‑‑ if you're playing Frank Sinatra or Tony Bennett in heavy doses, I think you would have some trouble.  What we're proposing is ‑‑ those artists will be played ‑‑ but I think you're gonna hear a lot less of them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13666             In that way, I think we have a better chance of surviving, from an advertising standpoint.  We still, at the end of the day, have to be attractive to advertisers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13667             So we certainly will deliver music for people who are older that, you know, would like to hear the Tony Bennett's and the Frank Sinatra's, but also, we're looking at a wider appeal as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13668             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm.  And you're looking for ‑‑ if I've got it ‑‑ if I understand correctly ‑‑ sort of another Big Daddy, is that the idea?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13669             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Well ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13670             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Because the Big Daddy format is ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 13671             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Big Daddy's pretty high energy and I don't think that's the kind of station we're proposing here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13672             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13673             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Ours, you can have it on in the evening, in the background, and it wouldn't scare you.  You wouldn't have explosions and crazy splitters running in between the songs.  We would have a very smooth sounding format.  And more refined.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13674             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13675             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  And they're very 80's and 90's based in their programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13676             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What about the ‑‑ have you looked at the percentage of duplication with any presently licensed stations of your music?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13677             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  That's a good question.  I did take that into account when I did the music samples.  On two occasions actually, I submitted two hours of programming.  Many of those artists you don't hear on Sudbury radio apparently.  I would say ‑‑ somewhere between ‑‑ when I say that ‑‑ 40 to 50o% of them are not being played on Sudbury radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13678             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So it would be a 50% duplication of what's in the market already?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13679             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  I don't know if you would say duplication.  I'm saying by artist, so I would say 50% of the artists you will not be hearing on Sudbury radio.  The other 50% you will, but you might not be hearing the kind of songs that we'll be playing, that's in our format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13680             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  That's in your format, m'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13681             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Divine Brown ‑‑ a lot of her work is not ‑‑ mainstream type music that you can just play, but yet, she has certain songs that would fit the perfect ‑‑ fit the format perfectly, so, you know, we have to be mindful of that.  And that it flows well with the programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13682             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yeah.  And I think you said you were only gonna have about 10% of music from the 60's.  Is that the same as we call hit material, and the hit material ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13683             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13684             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  ‑‑ policy that you can ‑‑ 49.9% max.  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13685             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  I'll have to be mindful of that, yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13686             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yeah, but it won't be a problem with only 10%.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13687             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  It won't be a problem with 10, no.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13688             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No, and ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13689             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  It might be a problem for the others.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13690             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes, I don't know.  And 40% Cancon. Is that the broadcast week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13691             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Over the broadcast week, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13692             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay, and it would be of course ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13693             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Which would be 6:00 a.m. till ‑‑ well, actually 6:00 a.m. till I guess 5:59 a.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13694             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13695             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13696             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You're gonna be playing jazz and blues, and you're gonna be playing instrumentals.  How much jazz and blues?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13697             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Whereabouts did I say that, I'm just curious.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13698             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Oh my God, you're gonna ask me to do this ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13699             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13700             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I ‑ you're not ‑‑ okay ‑‑ let's start this way ‑‑ you're not going to be playing ‑‑ are you going to be playing instrumentals?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13701             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  On occasion.  It's a very small percentage of what we're proposing.  Five per cent.  In the surveying that we did also, instrumentals came up very low at 40% acceptance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13702             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13703             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  So, you know, that would be a low priority.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13704             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yeah, and you're aware that we've got now the 20% ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13705             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13706             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Cancon requirements.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13707             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13708             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm.  And then you did talk about Diana Krall.  And she's normally jazz.  You're not planning on doing much jazz.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13709             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13710             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  And again you're aware of the 20% requirement now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13711             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13712             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13713             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  But there is some wonderful jazz out there, and some of it might fit the format on occasion.  Like Diana Krall.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13714             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13715             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Very mainstream.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13716             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yeah, depends on her format.  M'hmm.  And can I get this right ‑‑ all of these different types of music that you're gonna be playing, are you gonna day park, or are you gonna put them all together, or how you gonna do it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13717             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  The flow of the station will be consistent throughout the programming day.  The ‑‑ I don't think I wanna get into block programming, where you have a certain sound in the station in the morning, and then a different sound in the evening. I think the flow of the station and the feel of it should be the same throughout the day, so there's no surprises when anyone punches into it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13718             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm, okay.  And then voice tracking.  In the application, you said you would be doing 8:00 to midnight.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13719             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13720             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And in January of this year, you said you'd been doing 6:00 to midnight.  What is it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13721             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  6:00 p.m. to midnight.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13722             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13723             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  I think in the initial application, I did have a cut off at 8:00 p.m.  I would say 8:00 p.m. because we were gonna do ‑‑ the morning show host would be from 6:00 til 10:00, middays would be from 10:00 til 3:00, and then from 3:00 til 8:00 would be the afternoon person, and then we would do voice tracking from 8:00 til midnight, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13724             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  And what are you gonna do after midnight?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13725             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  After midnight would be the flow of the same type of programming.  And there would be I.D.'s that would be run, splitters, if you will, that would present the music.  And in the case of the emerging artists, where we were talking about the flag waving favourites, where we give a little more background material, those would be recorded pieces, and they would flow through the overnight hour quite nicely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13726             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  H'mm, okay.  Now, you've talked about your news, and at some point I saw something about that you did ‑‑ did you not commit to do a certain amount of local news?  In terms of local, as opposed to regional and national?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13727             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  There were breakdowns, I think it was 40, 40 and 20.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13728             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yeah.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13729             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  40 local, 40 national, and 20 international.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13730             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm, and is that on your news, or the broadcast news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13731             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Well, a lot of that news would be provided by services that we would source, but our news presenters would present that ‑‑ the news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13732             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13733             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  They would present it in a four minute newscast, some local, some international, some national as part of that flow and that breakdown.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13734             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  As opposed though, to the Broadcast News, which it appears you're just gonna be taking straight from Broadcast News?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13735             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Right.  On the late hours, yes.  I believe it was evenings and overnights, and there were some weekend hours.  We were going to offer live news between 10:00 and 4:00 ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13736             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13737             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  On Saturdays and Sundays.  So Sunday and Saturday morning and in the Saturday from 5:00 p.m. onwards would be Broadcast News.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13738             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm, and so when you're talking news, what about sports and surveillance?  Is that in the package, or is ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13739             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  It's not actually.  I've stayed really focused on presenting news in our proposal. I think that that's the largest deficiency in the market.  I think we can be very successful as a news operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13740             I know I have a friend that works at CBC and he tells me all the time that they do surveys that whenever anything important happens, you know, whenever there's a major disaster, or whatever ‑‑ a big news story ‑‑ the CBC's ratings go right through the roof.  Because people depend on the quality of their news coverage.  Which I think we want to become known as the station that you can depend in Sudbury for excellent news coverage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13741             If there's an event, or something that's happened, or something, you know, locally that's gone on, that's very important to people, they will know, that if they tune in, they will hear it on our station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13742             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13743             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  And you know, we'd be willing of course to break into regular programming in a case like that where it was something, you know, very important.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13744             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13745             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  And we'd have the means to do it, because we have a strong local news team.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13746             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yeah.  M'hmm.  I thought ‑‑ and I may be wrong ‑‑ I thought our new policy talked about local programming including sports, and mandated sports.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13747             MS DIONNE:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13748             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So, you might want to look into that a little further.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13749             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Was that in the latest ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13750             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13751             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  ‑‑ documentation in November?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13752             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  No, in ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13753             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  In December.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13754             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Where is the policy?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13755             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Months are flowing together.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13756             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  December, yeah, m'hmm.  And you gave us a little more information about the local events in terms of the ten minutes per day for community groups.  How's that gonna be done, like are  they gonna come in and you're gonna say, okay, talk for five minutes, or something, or ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13757             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  No, they will ‑‑ each groups going to have an opportunity to draw from a pool of radio spots that we are leaving aside for them.  So each broadcast day, there would be ten minutes, or twenty 30‑second commercials that would be logged between 6:00 a.m. and midnight, that will ‑‑ they can put whatever message on the air that they want in that 30 second commercial.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13758             So, you know, if there's a blood doner clinic, or something like that that wanted to let the public know about, then we would create the 30 second commercial for them, and run it at no charge.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13759             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm.  And, in terms of local entertainment news, where would you have that, or would you have that?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13760             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Local entertainment news would be left to the announcers.  If they ‑‑ in the part of their flow ‑‑ said you know, Tony Bennett's featured tonight on a program on PBS, you might want to catch it at 8:00, that would be fine, that would be part of the flow of the announcers show.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13761             But there would be no special, you know, at a certain time where you're gonna hear it ‑‑ entertainment programming.  We wouldn't slot something special for that, but it would happen, ongoing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13762             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm, okay.  We've cleaned up your CCD, it appears, now the Starmaker, which is through the schools, and are you gonna give one each, one each year, you're gonna give half to ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13763             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  To each School Board.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13764             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  There's Rainbow, there's the Rainbow School Board, and ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13765             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  The Sudbury Catholic School Board.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13766             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yeah, and so, what is the idea, you hand over the money, and the school chooses?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13767             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Right.  They would ‑‑ you know ‑‑ I'm not sure how involved they want to get in that, but I'm hoping that they will find out from the music teachers, who, you know, is the most promising student is in each school, nominate them, and then maybe there's a committee formed within the Board to check out each of the nominees.  And then decide from there who would receive the bursary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13768             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  Could you possibly provide for us a letter from the schools ‑‑ School Boards ‑‑ showing compliance with the new policy on CCD.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13769             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13770             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  In other words, that you don't do the choice, you don't hand the cheque over, you hand the cheque to the School Board, who then hands it ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13771             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Okay.  It needs to be done like that?  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13772             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13773             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  I could do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13774             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay, good.  Moving on to economics, and by the way, I'm very close to the end.  You've had a very thorough presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13775             You're projecting a 10% share of audience.  And that's a fairly large number.  Can you tell me how you ascertained it?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13776             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Well, in the Sudbury market, there's only four commercial radio stations operating.  And for the ‑‑ I'm not sure whether I put the CBC's share in that breakdown or not.  I don't know if you have it in front of you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13777             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Well, I've got CBC, and this is your data.  Radio One at 11.7 ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13778             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13779             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  (inaudible) and your projection was 9.6.  Is that what you were referring to?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13780             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Yeah.  I ‑‑ I wasn't sure whether CBC was in there, so ‑‑ so that's part of the breakdown.  I think that's a reasonable number.  We're not ‑‑ this is gonna be a long haul to build audience, and turn the station into something over time, and I think 10% is a reasonable number to come on the air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13781             We're going to be promoting quite extensively in the market.  I think people that like the kind of music that we're proposing will find the station, and I think that there's enough of them ‑‑ and there's enough of a programming hole in the market ‑‑ to succeed with that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13782             And 10%, I think we're still below what CIGM apparently has.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13783             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13784             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  The country station.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13785             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So you didn't do any economic studies, and then discount the interest, and do it on an economic basis.  You just sort of picked a number ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13786             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Well, yeah it was done on my gut feel and experience, and where I think a station ‑‑ and similar stations in the country ‑‑ would fall, when up against these other formats.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13787             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Well, and maybe I'm wrong ‑‑ I thought you said this was a made in Sudbury music format.  So ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13788             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  It is, there's certainly different variations of it, across the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13789             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Oh, okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13790             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Some ‑‑ yeah ‑‑ some adult contemporary stations are very contemporary, other ones are skewing certainly older, and playing more older selections.  So there are a few in the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13791             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm, okay.  And the 10%, when would you obtain that.  I can't remember.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13792             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  When will we attain the 10% audience share?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13793             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yeah, when was the plan.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13794             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  I think we would probably get that right off the bat actually.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13795             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13796             MR. PLUNKETT:  Madame Commissioner, it's obvious Sudbury is quite isolated, and there's very little spill in from other stations outside the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13797             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13798             MR. PLUNKETT:  Which is an influencing factor to compare to if you were in southern Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13799             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm, m'hmm.  Yeah.  And you propose to ‑‑ that your year revenue, 28% of it would come from existing stations.  Which stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13800             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  I think it was mentioned a few times, actually, that probably the closest format that exists in the market currently is Easy Rock.  So I think that the number would probably be ‑‑ come from there moreso than the others that are operating currently.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13801             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay, you wouldn't take away from the country, you don't think?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13802             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  I think a country listener likes country music, and ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 13803             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yeah, okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13804             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  They'll probably stay there no matter what.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13805             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Now the LSA has gone it's way.  How do you think that has impacted the market, and how would that, or would it, impact your projections?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13806             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Maybe ‑‑ lead me a little more on what kind of answer you're looking at ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13807             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  The LSA was in effect until May of ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13808             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13809             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Last year.  As a result of it's termination, have rates come down, because you were saying it was very hard to get into the market, and therefore, there was some ability to maintain rates.  And if rates have gone down, what would that do to your projections?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13810             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Well I think certainly the market's more competitive now that you have to use sales forces distinctively out there selling.  And I think new revenues for radio are, you know, generated by having more sales people out on the street, and I think if we were licensed, and you know, we had a sales force out there as well, I think it would generate new dollars to radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13811             And ‑‑ so I'm not sure that it would depress the rates, or bring them down.  I ‑‑ the rates are very strong in Sudbury, absolutely.  And it probably does have a lot to do with the marketing agreement that went on.   But I don't anticipate anything's gonna happen with the rates.  I think that part of the problem ‑‑ well, not a problem ‑‑ is trying ‑‑ in trying to acquiring spots, is it's hard to buy spots because there are so few radio stations to choose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13812             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13813             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  You know, that's part of the problem as well.  So that drives the rates up as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13814             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13815             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  So I'm not sure it's so much the agreement, as just the lack of availability of air time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13816             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  Emerging artists.  The COL is 15% of the 40% Cancon that you will play?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13817             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  I'm sorry, the COL?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13818             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  The condition of license ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 13819             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13820             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  ‑‑ on emerging ‑‑ I'm sorry I started to speak ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13821             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Well, sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13822             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  ‑‑ acronym.  On emerging artists, the condition of license that you have agreed to, is that you will pay 15% emerging artists, as defined by the CAB ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13823             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13824             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  ‑‑ out of ‑‑ of, not out of ‑‑ of your 40% Canadian content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13825             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13826             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  It also seemed to me you had some other ‑‑ what may be more practical things with emerging artists ‑‑ and that was in your programming.  Where did I see that?  And in sort of promotion of the station and that issue.  I guess I didn't see it.  We do get mixed up ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13827             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Is that the flag waving favourites ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13828             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13829             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  ‑‑ and the ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13830             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  But that is part of the ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 13831             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  ‑‑ the newest land claim ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13832             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yeah, that is part of the 15%, isn't it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13833             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13834             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13835             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  I just think that if you're going go put those artists out there, you have to help them, and you have to help the listener accept them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13836             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13837             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  By spending some time letting them know about those artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13838             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yeah.  I think that's all my questions.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13839             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13840             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Madame Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13841             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑Chairman Arpin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13842             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you Madame Chair.  While you were ending on the emerging artists, I may start with some questions in that area first.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13843             I'm sure that you have read the submission made by the CAB in this proceeding?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13844             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13845             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Obviously ‑‑ and I understand from your earlier answer that you were ready to accept the condition of license ‑‑ the definition ‑‑ not the condition ‑‑ but the definition given by the CAB for regarding the notion of emerging artists, but in their submission, the CAB is also saying that it might not fit ‑‑ it's not necessarily one size fit all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13846             The definition that they have agreed on ‑‑ at least their members have agreed on ‑‑ and that ‑‑ are you sure that the definition that you've agreed, fits the format that you are contemplating?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13847             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  It's ‑‑ it might be a challenge at certain times, and they sort of raised that ‑‑ that there's, you know ‑‑ that they don't have control over the music industry, and ‑‑ but having said that, there's an awful lot of people now who can very cheaply deliver CD's to radio stations looking for air play, that have no representation by record companies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13848             The independent artists that exist in the country, it's staggering.  If you think you're a singer, you can get some studio time, and you can have a CD produced for a couple thousand dollars.  And of reasonable quality now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13849             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  ‑‑ and


LISTNUM 1 \l 13850             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Not like it used to be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13851             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And until now not being able to have any air play.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13852             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13853             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  But what you're saying is that with more straight definition then that may open up fortunately for them to get air play.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13854             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Yeah, that's true.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13855             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Is EDS measuring the Sudbury market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13856             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  EDS, I believe they do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13857             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Because I know that they're not doing all Canadian markets, they're each and every month they're adding more and more locations, but ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13858             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  I can't answer that definitely, not being within the industry of Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13859             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And the next applicant is someone that is already operating there, so we may have an answer to that question ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13860             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13861             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So we'll check with them.  So those were my questions regarding the emerging artists.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13862             I have a question for Dr. Dignan.  In your representation, you added something about the Metis population, saying that they are a significant population is Sudbury, and around Sudbury, except that in your oral presentations, you were saying that the programming that you are personally contemplating doing will be directed to the First Nations.  And we know that aboriginals are defined by being Metis, First Nations, and Inuit.  But why have ‑‑ are you contemplating doing something specific for the Metis, or you're saying that First Nation and Metis are quite an alike community?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13863             DR. DIGNAN:  No, culturally they're significantly different.  However, their health issues are very similar.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13864             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Sure.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13865             DR. DIGNAN:  And I would hope that we would be able to indicate that these are particular problems within those various cultural groups.  And also ‑‑ it would also include ‑‑ the people of Sudbury as a whole.  If you were able to see the news this morning, we have 25% our children are now overweight.  50% of First Nations children are overweight, which is a huge contribution to diabetes.  However, it also contributes to high blood pressure, strokes, and a myriad of other problems.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13866             So, like public health has reduced the amount of smoking in this province, and in this country by approximately 22 ‑ 23% in the last 26 years.  If we had the same kind of sustained public health program, or programming that would reduce obesity, we would deal with a myriad of other issues as well.  And I hope that answers your question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13867             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  But, Mr. Wrightsell, because you're gonna have some programming coming from AVR, newsclip and also the whole nation news.  Will they be covering Metis concerns, other than the First Nation concerns?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13868             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  I believe it's in AVR's programming currently.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13869             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes, but ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13870             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  So those would be addressed in the five minute newscasts that we will be running.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13871             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes, but the reason ‑‑ Dr. Dignan raised my attention to the Metis concern by his ‑‑ the sentence that he added to his oral presentation.  Now, AVR obviously has the aboriginal voice network, but that being said, to my knowledge, most of their programming, if not all of their programming is dedicated to ‑‑ more than likely ‑‑ to the First Nations people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13872             So my question to you is are you, over and above what has been said so far, contemplating any specific thing for the Metis community?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13873             DR. DIGNAN:  I would certainly be communicating with the Metis community in Sudbury to ask them what their particular health concerns are and this would also be presented during the program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13874             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Mr. Wrightsell, through your home background, and I think you have tried to purchase time in the Sudbury market, and being knowledgeable about ‑‑ I will say probably all the Ontario markets from a media buying perspective ‑‑ how many new radio stations do you think the Sudbury market will sustain?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13875             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  I think when you look at the growth in the market currently, Sudbury has a bit of catching up to do.  This ‑‑ the market I think grew last year almost 10% I think was the number.  Which represented I think about $900,000, which would be on the high end I think of what anyone came in here today with on their first year projections.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13876             So I think that Sudbury certainly would easily absorb one operator and possibly two.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13877             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Madame Chair, those were my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13878             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Legal counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13879             MS DIONNE:  Hello.  I have three questions.  I just want to clarify that you agree that your over and above commitment of $103,700 be imposed as a condition of your license.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13880             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  $103,700?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13881             MS DIONNE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13882             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Yes, that's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13883             MS DIONNE:  I would also like to clarify your commitment to devote 40% of Category 2 music to Canadian content.  Does this commitment apply to the period of 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. during the week, and for the entire broadcast week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13884             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13885             MS DIONNE:  You mean, 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. from Monday to Friday, and for the entire broadcast week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13886             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Yes, that's correct.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13887             MS DIONNE:  And I would like to clarify the letters that we would like from the school boards.  If they could confirm that the funds would be spent in the manner consistent with the Commission's policy, the Commercial Radio Policy that came out on 15th December, 2006.  And if you could do this by the 13th of April.  It gives you two weeks, considering that we have Easter period in that.  And if you could copy all the applicants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13888             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  I'll agree to that, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13889             MS DIONNE:  Thank you very much.  Madame Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13890             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Wrightsell, this is your opportunity to tell us, to summarize your application and to tell us why it's the best use of the frequency available.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13891             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  Well, as I discussed, I'm planning on locating to Sudbury, and being a part of the fabric of the community.  I understand your dad was a tailor.

‑‑‑ Laughter

LISTNUM 1 \l 13892             MR. WRIGHTSELL:  That's from yesterday.  You know, its' been about ‑‑ like I said ‑‑ it's been twenty ‑‑ by the time the license is granted, I guess for someone if you choose to do that, it's gonna be about 27 years since Sudbury had a license.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13893             So it does have some catching up to do, and we think that ‑‑ you know I've been there on several occasions ‑‑ I've talked to so many people.


The dead of winter, and in the heat of summer.  And you know, we've put a lot of research into our proposal, and put a lot of effort into it, and tried to really address in our application, the deficiencies that exist in the market right now.  That we sight that exist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13894             And you know, I'll go back to those four pillars again.  The local news coverage being so important.  Non‑profit public service support.  First Nations programming, including AVR news in prime time.  And strong benchmarks for local talent development by a relatively small player.  I think we've put forth significant dollars for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13895             We're really going to provide a good old‑fashioned radio station here where it's a part of the community, and people can depend on it.  And with a large complement of employees that can carry it out, and carry out a task and put an excellent station on the air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13896             If you build it, they will come.  And I'll leave you with that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13897             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, thank you, and thank you to all your colleagues this afternoon.  Madame Secretary.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13898             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with Item 15 on the agenda, which is an application by Newcap Inc. for a license to operate an English‑ language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Sudbury.  The new station would operate on frequency 101.1 Mhz, Channel 266B, with an effective radiated power of 50,000, non‑directional antenna, and antenna height of 120.9 metres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13899             Appearing for the application is Mr. Rob Steele, who will introduce his colleagues.  You will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.  Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13900             MR. STEELE:  Okay, thank you very much.  Well good afternoon, Madame Chair, Vice‑Chairs Arpin and French, members of the Commission, and Commission staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13901             I'm Rob Steele, President and Chief Executive Officer, Newcap Radio.  Before we begin our presentation, I would like to introduce our team.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13902             Seated to my immediate left is Glenda Spenrath, Newcap's Director of Operations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13903             And next to Glenda, is Mark Maheu, Executive Vice‑President, Chief Strategist for Newcap.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13904             Next to Mark is the Management Team that provides great radio to Sudbury on CHMO FM, known as Big Daddy, 103.9.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13905             First, is Wendy Watson, who acts as both General Manager and General Sales Manager of the station.  Wendy has worked in radio and television in northern Ontario for over twenty years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13906             Before coming to Newcap, Wendy was General Sales Manager at CTV in Sudbury.  She is involved in the many community organizations in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13907             Next to Wendy, is Rick Tompkins, the Program Director and Operations Manager of Big Daddy.

Rick has called Sudbury his home since 1981, and he was educated there.  He has worked for CHNO for almost twenty years, under four different ownership groups.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13908             Next to Rick is Carrie Ann Tantalo, the News Director of the station.  Carrie Ann was born and raised in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13909             She has worked in radio news in northern Ontario for ten years, and she was recently recognized by the Laurentian Publishing's Forty under Forty in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13910             We are here today to present our application to bring top 40 radio back to Sudbury.  We know this format well, as we once offered it in this marketplace, but we were unable to continue as a stand alone station.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13911             This format is focused on a new hit music, serving a younger audience of teens and adults under 35 years of age.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13912             Newcap has a good deal of experience serving younger audiences, with CHR, urban CHR, and alternative rock stations in markets as different as Ottawa, St. John's, Newfoundland, Edmonton, as well as in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13913             We have achieved ratings and business success in all of these markets by reaching out to young listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13914             We also propose a significant contribution to Canadian content development, with much of it focusing on new local talent through involvement in the music curricula of the schools.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13915             I would now like to ask Wendy and our team to present our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13916             MS WATSON:  Thank you Rob.  Good afternoon Madame Chair, and members of the Commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13917             I'm Wendy Watson, General Manager of CHNO FM, operating as Big Daddy 103.9 in Sudbury.  I moved to Sudbury in 1988, and quickly came to adopt our beautiful city as my home.  Sudbury is a northern Ontario magnet for education, health care, and of course, shopping.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13918             Despite some success in diversifying our economy, our fate is still very reliant upon resources, particularly nickel.  While the price of nickel has been hovering just over $20 a pound for the past while, my colleagues in the business community in Sudbury remember when it was $5 a pound, or even less.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13919             We are enjoying a bit of an economic boom right now, and everyone in the town, from the Mayor to the Chamber of Commerce, to the Economic Development Corporation, to the nickel companies and their Unions, are cautiously optimistic for the short and medium term financial future.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13920             The Sudbury Radio market has evolved considerably since Newcap purchased CHNO FM from Haliburton in 2001.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13921             According to the CRTC's annual return information for the market, radio revenues have grown an average of 8.7% per year since 2001, with growth of 10.3% between 2004 and 2005.  The 2006 PBIT margin of 25.3% is higher than both the Ontario and Canadian English radio averages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13922             But we believe that the radio statistics don't reflect the reality of all radio operators in the City.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13923             One operator, Rogers, holds three licenses in the market.  It's strong competitive position garners a much higher percentage of the revenues and profits in the market, than it's share of listening would seem to warrant.  Rogers gets over 90% of the profits in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13924             We are here today to ask for a contemporary hit radio license.  And a fair question for anyone would be:  well, if you wanted that kind of station, why did you change format away from CHR?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13925             In a moment, we'll outline the research that led us to choose this format, but there is a business reason why a CHR station is not feasible as a stand alone, but will work in combination.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13926             If you look across the country, there are no smaller markets with stand alone CHR stations.  And even in the larger cities, they are usually part of the station cluster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13927             The reason is, that the audience the format attracts, is less desired by radio advertisers.  They have less disposable income, although if you look at what my personal children spend, teenagers, they're big spenders of what they do have.  And they're big users of other media.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13928             The most popular medium for reaching young people is television, followed by internet.  But young people do listen to radio, and some advertisers do want to reach them.  The difficulty for radio operators is to serve this audience segment while making it financially viable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13929             Further, because Rogers three stations cover the main adult demographics, with the rock station covering off men 18 to 54, the Easy Rock station covering women in the same demographic, and their Country News Talk station covering older demographics, advertisers do not need to buy our stand alone station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13930             So, despite Big Daddy's large share of 25/54 tuning, 22% in the fall of 2006, we do not drive that same share of revenues.  Our profit margins are well below the market average.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13931             CHNL worked well as a CHR station within a station cluster.  As part of a local sales agreement with the three Rogers stations, CHNO was an attractive part of a larger four station buy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13932             But when the LSA ended, our margins contracted.  We were a stand alone operator, with a format that focused on the least profitable segment of the listening audience.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13933             The combination of a less desirable audience with a strong competitor with multiple stations, meant that advertisers could, and did, easily buy around a stand alone CHR.  Our only way of maintaining our revenue levels, was to change formats to classis hits.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13934             The only way that a CHR station can be viable in Sudbury, is to share infrastructure, and be part of a larger buy.  With the addition of a station strong in the younger demographics to our classic hit station, that is a strong contender with both men and women from 35 to 54, we have a more competitive sales proposition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13935             We chose the format based on three different sets of information.  First, our knowledge of the success that CHNO FM had with the audiences as a CHR station, both in ratings and in audience reaction.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13936             Second, an analysis of the tuning trends in our market, and thirdly, format finder research by Mark Kasoff and Associates.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13937             I would now like to ask Rick Tompkins to tell you a bit about this choice, and the sound of the station that we propose to call "Live 101".

LISTNUM 1 \l 13938             MR. TOMPKINS:  Thanks Wendy, and good afternoon, Madame Chair.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13939             I am Rick Tompkins, and I am the Program Director of Big Daddy 103.9.  I have spent my entire 20 year career in radio in Sudbury, and my wife and I are now raising our family in this community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13940             I was the Program Director for CHNO FM as a CHR station.  The station was a rating success with our target audience, and was the most listened to station among teens, with far more hours tuned than the next nearest station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13941             Similarly, it was the most listened to station among adults 18 to 34 in both demographic groups.  Females listened to it even more than males. And this is a music active that really does get involved in the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13942             When we looked at the fall 2006 PBM results, and compared them to Canadian and Ontario averages, it became clear to us that the most underserved audience is the younger audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13943             We have attached a comparative chart to these remarks that demonstrates clearly those under 35 in Sudbury spend far fewer hours per week listening to the radio than the Canadian and Ontario averages for the same age groups.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13944             Conversely, those over 35 years of age in our market spend hours per week listening ‑‑ spend more hours per week listening to radio than the averages.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13945             More specifically, teens spend two hours per week less with radio than the averages would show.  And those 18 to 34 spend 1.6 hours per week less, whereas 35 ‑‑ people 35 and older spend 2.3 hours more per week listening to radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13946             But to confirm what our experience and interpretation of BVM ratings told us, and to determine the exact format, we asked Kasoff Researchers to undertake a survey of the market.  They interviewed a sample of 404 people in greater Sudbury, and tested their satisfaction with local radio, their interest in a music format, and their perception as to whether these formats were available in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13947             The research demonstrated clearly that it is the younger listeners who are least satisfied with their radio choices.  The average satisfaction score with Sudbury radio on a scale of 1 to 5, was 3.5, where 1 was the least satisfied, and 5 was the most.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13948             Teens showed 3.1, those 18 to 24, showed a mere 2.6, and those 25 to 34, showed 3.3.  Over 35 year olds were more satisfied.  Those 35 to 44 showed 3.6, those 45 to 54, showed 3.7, and those 55 plus, showed 4.1.  And those were a lot of numbers to digest, so we have a chart at the end of the remarks, showing them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13949             The fans of alternative rock, active rock, and CHR are the least satisfied.  Kasoff provides a measurement of what they call percent of format void, which is the number of people who show strong positive interest in a format.  That's 4 to 5 on a scale of 1 to 5, and who cannot name a station providing that format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13950             Kasoff's conclusion was that a CHR station with a mix of pop alternative and pop top‑40 would be the strongest format for a new station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13951             Live 101 will play a mix of pop and alternative designed to appeal to the music tastes identified in our research for Sudbury listeners predominantly under the age of 35.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13952             Because of this hybrid approach, Live 101 will draw more young men than CHR traditionally does, even though it will still skew more to females.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13953             The station will be fully focused on the musics, lives, interests and concerns of it's audience.  The audience for CHR wants to interact with the station, by phone, by text messages, by e‑mail.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13954             Radio is but one of many media choices for them.  They can download music to their cell phones, MP3 players, or both.  Watch movies and play games in their play stations, text message their friends, or spend time chatting by instant messenger.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13955             To engage and hold their attention, Live 101 will have to have compelling program for them.  Fun, with great music, programs about the music, and information and discussion relevant to their lives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13956             We have developed a comprehensive schedule of special music programs, that will make the station a must listen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13957             All of them but one will be locally programmed with the Canadian hit 30 being produced by Hot 89.9 here in Ottawa.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13958             Emerging artists need all the help that they can get to make their mark in the new Canadian music business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13959             And CHR radio plays an important part of supporting new artists.  This format plays more new music than probably any other format, particularly when it has a strong component of alternative rock.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13960             With 11% of our total air play going to emerging artists, this means that 1 in 3 of the Canadian musical selections that we will play, will come from these new talents.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13961             In a world with so many audio choices, we see high quality, local spoken word programming as a differentiating element of a radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13962             That is why in this application we have proposed to devote significant resources to news, talk, and information for our target audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13963             I would like to ask Carrie Ann Tantalo to outline this approach in our area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13964             MS TANTALO:  Thanks Rick, and good afternoon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13965             My name is Carrie Ann Tantalo, and I'm the News Director at Big Daddy 103.9.  I was born, and I've lived most of my life in Sudbury, and now I'm raising my own family there as well.  I'm very proud to be part of this application for a new radio station that will be in my home town.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13966             We propose to provide a significant package of news, information, and other spoken word programming on Live 101.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13967             Our listeners want current, local and relevant news and information.  We've developed a complete and comprehensive plan to exceed their expectations.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13968             Our service of news and information to our listeners will take two forms.  79 news casts each week, with regular news casts on the hour and half hour through morning drive, with news casts on the hour until 6:00 p.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13969             In all, we propose a total of just over six hours of news casts, of which 80% will be news.  75% of our weekly total will be local news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13970             One feature of the non‑news portion of our reports, will be a strong emphasis on local high school, college, University and non‑professional sports.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13971             Now already we have an agreement with Laurentian University Varsity Athletics to give us quick access to their events, and we have agreed to give them an even higher profile.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13972             While our news casts stop at 6:00 p.m., our information to our audience will not.  We will actively engage our audience with music and spoken word features throughout the evening, capped by our 11:00 p.m. nightly talk program from Sunday to Thursday.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13973             Sudbury Live at Eleven will be an innovative talk program, hosted by local young people, along with expert guests, to cover a wide range of topics.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13974             The program will be supervised and supported by our staff, and we will invite participation through telephone, through e‑mail, and through text messaging as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13975             The discussion will carry on from on‑air to our website as well, to encourage as much participation as possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13976             All of our announcers will be informed, they'll be passionate about the music and the lifestyle that our audience appreciates, whether it's the lighter side through celebrity gossip, or serious topics, such as drinking and driving, abuse through the internet, or technology updates.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13977             At Newcap we have a great deal of experience in serving younger audiences and we have in‑house expertise to meet their needs.  For your convenience, we have attached two pages summarizing our commitments in spoken word and Canadian content and development.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13978             To outline our approach to Canadian content development, Mark Maheu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13979             MR. MAHEU:  Thanks, Carrie Ann.  Newcap welcomes the CRTC's expanded approach to the development of Canadian talent and content, which puts a strong emphasis on the role of the national organizations, but also encourages on the ground initiatives to develop Canadian musical, spoken word, and journalistic talent.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13980             We propose to contribute over one million dollars over the course of the first license term to Canadian content development.  Our proposals are both for national initiatives and for locally based ones.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13981             On the national level, we propose to provide $210,000 over the first term of the license to factor.  And $280,000 to the radio star maker fund.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13982             In both cases, we've asked them to earmark our contributions where possible to northern Ontario artists.  We propose to devote over half of our contributions to local initiatives in and around Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13983             First of all, we have developed a strategic partnership with Music and Film in Motion.  Wendy Watson's long involvement in radio and television in Sudbury brought this to our attention, and we intend to work with this local affiliative factor to help fulfil their vision of developing the music industry throughout northern Ontario.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13984             With $20,000 per year in scholarships, and for a local music industry conference, $10,000 per year to support the use of Sudbury recording facilities, and $20,000 each year for the Northern Ontario Music Awards, we will provide a substantial lift to the music component of their activities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13985             And our efforts go well beyond this.  To provide on‑air promotion and support, both on Live 101 and our existing station, Big Daddy, 103.9.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13986             We will also contribute $25,000 annually to be shared between the two Sudbury School Boards to support their music programs.  $5,000 will be used to provide bursaries for ten worthy students to pursue their musical studies, while the remaining $20,000 will go to the purchase of musical instruments and other support for their music curricula.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13987             In all, we will provide $145,000 in CCD each year, that's over $1,000,000 over the first term of our license.  This is almost three times the amount proposed by the next closest applicant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13988             Madame Chair, and members of the Commission, we believe that we have presented an application that deserves to be licensed on its' merits.  We intend to create a radio station for the most under‑served group in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13989             We will provide a home for new and emerging artists through air‑play and the promotion of their music on our station.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13990             We will provide targeted innovative, and formative news and spoken word programming, every day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13991             We will propose to devote $4.6 million over our first seven year license term for programming expenses.  That's more than $1 million more than the next highest applicant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13992             We propose $1,000,000 to the development of Canadian content development over the course of the license.  And we will have a minimal impact on the other English language competitor in the Sudbury market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13993             Sudbury has a strong and diversified economy and can absorb our proposal.  The addition of a second license to Newcap also permits us to provide a station targeting the most difficult audience to reach in radio, younger listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13994             The synergy stemming from our two station operation, will allow us to bring radio to our industry's future audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13995             We thank you very much for your time and attention and we would be pleased to answer any questions that you have about our proposals.  And I would take the questions, and ask our team to answer them.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13996             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Vice‑Chairman Arpin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13997             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you very much, Madame Chair, and all who come to this gathering.  I will ‑‑ before going to my questions ‑‑ I will ‑‑ my first question will be directed to you Mr. Maheu, because it boils down from your presentation on CCD.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13998             Bottom of page ten, you're saying that you will be providing one million dollars over the term of the license.  Obviously you won't be on air on day one of that license.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13999             And when I'm going on page 11, reading that you will be devoting more than one million ‑‑ you will ‑‑ again, you're saying over the course of the license.  Are you saying that ‑‑ if we're granting you a seven year license, and then but ‑‑ you're on air only two years after the license has been granted ‑‑ you mean that you're gonna be spending that money over a five year period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14000             Or are you ready to accept a condition of license that it's being carried over through seven years of operation, rather than the term of the first license?


LISTNUM 1 \l 14001             MR. MAHEU:  Commissioner Arpin, you're right.  We won't necessarily be on the first day.  If we were awarded a license, it's gonna take us a little while to get on in Sudbury, although we can be on quicker than most, because we already do business there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14002             But our intention is that the money we've devoted to CCD will be spent over seven years in those $145,000 increments, so if by chance it took us a year to get on the air, we would have a one year carryover into the next term of license, for that million dollars to be spent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14003             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Okay, and you're ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14004             MR. MAHEU:  And we will accept a COL‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14005             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  A COL stating that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14006             MR. MAHEU:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14007             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Well, we will first look at your proposed format, including emerging artists, then I will follow up on some questioning on local programming and spoken word, (inaudible) content development plan, and particularly the ‑‑ dealing with the (inaudible) of March 20th, 2007.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14008             We'll speak a bit about synergies and your distribution platforms, and finally, some business considerations.  So we'll go over all the aspects.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14009             MR. MAHEU:  It sounds pretty complete.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14010             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  With your permission.  So to start with ‑‑ with the format ‑‑ and I think Mrs. Watson addressed some of the issues, or the concerns that the Commission have had while saying ‑‑ because you ‑‑ well, you're reintroducing in the market a format that you have vacated about two years ago.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14011             And I think you gave ‑‑ Mrs. Watson in her presentation gave a good rendition of the reasons why you have vacated that format.  While you were part ‑‑ through the LSA ‑‑ you were obviously a significant partner in the LSA, and you offered ‑‑ you offered that demographic to the group because you were covering all the spectrum of ‑‑ of the local demographic ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14012             Will there be ‑‑ mind you, differences ‑‑ between Live 101 and your former CHR Top 40 that you ‑‑ the former CHNO, or is it basically the same ‑‑ exactly the same thing that you're gonna be doing?


LISTNUM 1 \l 14013             MR. MAHEU:  It's a good question, and I'm gonna preface my statements by saying I'm gonna ask Rick Tompkins to elaborate a little bit to give you a sense, but the short answer to your question, will Live 101 be different than the CHR that used to be on the air in Sudbury, and the answer is yes.  It will have some significant differences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14014             Those differences include the musical sound of the radio station, which Rick will explain is a bit of a hybrid CHR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14015             Top 40 music as we all know, tends to change a lot from year to year.  And the components of Top 40 are always the same.  They're the most popular songs from all the different (inaudible) put into one format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14016             What's happening with CHR right now, is that it becomes very much more of a pop driven/pop alternative driven radio format, where when we were on the air in Sudbury, it was a very much a mainstream, Top 40 dance offering.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14017             So I'm going to ask Rick to talk a little bit about the specifics with that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14018             And the other significant difference that we're proposing in this version of CHR for Sudbury is a renewed, and more robust approach to spoken word, and news and information programming on the station this time around, than existed originally.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14019             So if I may, I'm going to ask Rick to talk a little bit about the musical sound, and how it's different from the last time, and then maybe he could pass it to Carrie Ann, and she could talk a little about the kinds of information and spoken word portions that will be quite a bit different than what we used to have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14020             MR. TOMPKINS:  Okay, thanks Mark.  Obviously, as Mark said, you know, the audience has changed for the CHR audience.  They definitely appreciate more combination of the pop mainstream, and the pop alternative that will be there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14021             So, rather than the kind of music that was on that radio station, you might find more a blend of Christina Aguilera, mixed in with Fallout Boy and Foo Fighters mixed in with Pussycat Dolls.  Kind of thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14022             As well, we've also got a huge aspect of this with emerging artists.  There were no emerging artists back in the days of our contemporary hit radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14023             But this is a huge part that we would like to be a reflection of our community.  We have a number of emerging artists within Sudbury that I've got to know through Music and Film in Motion that would definitely benefit from this.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14024             I can tell you that Johnny Williams, Shaun Clark, High Definition, and Backroads are four bands or artists that would benefit, and that would be able to be played on this pop mix with the alternative as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14025             And they're local Sudbury artists that are currently unsigned with major labels.  So that would be an opportunity for them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14026             And as we stated in the opening, one out of every three Canadian artists would be in emerging.  That's not something that was present before.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14027             As well, we are going to be a very live radio station for that time.  With our announcers, we have to be a reflection of our audience.  We have to keep them well entertained.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14028             We're up against MP3 players, and satellite radio these days, and we can't just put a music mix format on the air.  We have to make sure that we have announcers that will reflect the audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14029             So therefore, we've got to have live announcers on the air.  We are proposing to go 6:00 a.m. to midnight live, throughout the week, as well as 7:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. live on the weekends.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14030             And that is so that if there is something that happens in Sudbury, we can be responsive to it immediately.  An immediate reflection of the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14031             And to talk more about the differences that we're going to have in news and whatnot, I'd like to ask Carrie Ann to fill you in on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14032             MS TANTALO:  Thank you very much Rick.  I think we've learned a lot, and we've had a lot of time to reflect on it as to what we were doing when we were Z103.  We didn't have a lot of news when we were Z103, and I think our new station will be a lot different when it comes to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14033             We're talking about 79 news casts a week, over six hours of news in a week, that we think we can ‑‑ we'll be able to, you know, look at what our audience wants, and we'll be able to develop some news casts that will be specific to what they are looking for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14034             That ‑‑ you know, we'll educate them more as to what's going on in Sudbury, in their own community, and around the world as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14035             We will be expanding our news room, so we will have three full time news people in our news room that will be, you know, providing news and covering news for that demographic.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14036             And we're also proposing ‑‑ I'm very excited about a new program called Live at Eleven ‑‑ that will run five nights a week, and it will be an opportunity to talk about some of the issues facing ‑‑ you know, our demographic, and will also give them a chance and an opportunity to have their voices heard on our new station, Live 101.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14037             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Okay, we'll come back to news then later on, for more specific questions, but I appreciate your comment.  You wanted to add something, Mrs. Watson?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14038             MS WATSON:  Yes, thank you, Mr. Arpin.  I just wanted to add that we will also have a live person in our facility 24/7, 365 days a year, which currently just isn't happening in the Sudbury market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14039             As part of our commitment to being live, we also recognize that sometimes news events are happening at 2:00 a.m., and if the police, for instance, phone a radio station because they have something important that they need to get out there, sometimes they ‑‑ the phone doesn't go answered.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14040             We're going to correct that in our market.  This person will not be counted as a news person, but rather as an operator, and we already have an agreement with Cambrian College.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14041             As a matter of fact, Rick is sitting on the Broadcast News Media Advisory Committee and we view the opportunity to have an operator there in the overnight periods, as an opportunity to hire people that are just coming out of Cambrian Colleges program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14042             Great entry level job, they do maybe a weather update over the course of the night, they answer the phones, maybe do a few calls, just make sure that if something is happening, we can be responsive.  But, as you said, you're getting to the news piece a little bit later.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14043             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Just to qualify, that overnight person will be sharing his time between Big Daddy and Live 101?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14044             MS WATSON:  Basically he will be.  Think of him as an operations staff person, or you

know ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14045             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Making sure that there is someone ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14046             MS WATSON:  Someone there.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14047             MR. MAHEU:  Updated forecasts overnight.  Weather forecasts overnight.  Basic things.  We're gonna be voice tracked overnight on Live 101, but as Wendy said, I think it's important ‑‑ and this is something we re‑thought at Newcap corporately in many of our markets ‑‑ where the world is changing at an accelerated pace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14048             And in a lot of our markets, we're maybe the only broadcaster in that market, or one of two.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14049             And in a lot of cases, there is nobody around.  And things do happen.  So, we've taken a look at it.  It costs us money, but we think it's money well spent and will pay for itself over time.  That there is some responsibility on our part, especially if we have two stations, that we can afford to put one person in that building, in the overnight period to be able to take the phone calls, answer questions, and provide service if it's needed, to the community at that time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14050             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And Mr. Steele is ready to make that investment?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14051             MR. STEELE:  Absolutely, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14052             MR. MAHEU:  And to make a long story short, if I can, Mr. Vice‑Chair, the answer to your question ‑‑ this radio station is quite a bit different than the old CHR that was on in the market a couple of years ago.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14053             The one we had on was the basic model, this is the new upgraded, fully loaded version that can be delivered to the marketplace upon approval.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14054             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Now that we have the Big Daddy senior staff with us today, you may be ‑‑ should be able to answer quickly to my next question ‑‑ what was prompted by your answer on Live 101, how much live programming do you have on Big Daddy, currently?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14055             MR. MAHEU:  Rick, do you want to talk to that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14056             MR. TOMPKINS:  Sure.  The live programming that we have ‑‑ I would like to say we have no syndicated programming on Big Daddy, but the live programming ‑‑ just give me a second to add up the hours ‑‑ and

LISTNUM 1 \l 14057             MR. MAHEU:  Even if you just ‑‑ the day parts were live in the morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14058             MR. TOMPKINS:  Yeah.  Yeah, live morning show.  Live afternoon drive show, and a live evening show.  So essentially, there's a little bit of voice tracking in the mid‑day and a little bit of voice tracking at the late night, and that's it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14059             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And late night, you mean the overnight, or during the ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14060             MR. TOMPKINS:  9:00 p.m. until the morning show starts the next day.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14061             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  At six in the morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14062             MR. TOMPKINS:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14063             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So you will have more live activity at Live 101 than you have currently at Big Daddy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14064             MR. MAHEU:  No, if I can Mr. Vice‑Chair.  The ‑‑ if we are granted a license for a second radio station, that changes the whole dynamic for us in the marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14065             Right now Big Daddy 103.9 is a stand alone radio station.  So we're operating it as a stand alone, in a somewhat difficult business environment, you know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14066             Things have changed since the sales agreement has gone away, and that's fine, and we've made our peace with that.  And we've reinvested in the market, we've reconfigured our proposition to the listeners, and to advertisers, and we're trying to do it in a responsible manner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14067             Even, you know ‑‑ with ‑‑ we've had to choose where we put our limited resources in that market with one radio station.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14068             If we had that second radio station, it certainly brings some economies of scale into play that will benefit Newcap, not only on the Live 101 side, but also on the Big Daddy side.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14069             And so our anticipation is if we were to receive that second license, one of the benefits would be it would allow us the opportunity to do more live programming on Big Daddy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14070             We don't enjoy the prospect, or the idea of having to voice track some shows.  Given the choice, we'd rather be live.  We can do much more, we have a lot more flexibility, and quite frankly, we are able to deliver a better product to the marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14071             Financially right now, we're only doing the little bit of voice tracking we are doing in order to economize and to be able to put that money into more areas of prime time, like afternoon drive, and mornings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14072             So if we have that opportunity to enjoy some economies of scale, some of it spills back over to 103.9.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14073             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  But that wasn't part of your reputation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14074             MR. MAHEU:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14075             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  But obviously, you have answered my question, so I am responsible for the questions that I am asking.


‑‑‑ Laughter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14076             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  It happens that the answer was covered much broader than what the question was aiming at ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14077             MR. MAHEU:  Well consider it a bonus question, and thank you for that.

‑‑‑ Laughter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14078             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  The ‑‑ but I'm only saying it for the record, so that everybody understands that the ‑‑ you didn't use the (inaudible) ‑‑ well you used the (inaudible) ‑‑ rightly so, we'll say that to bona fide, but that wasn't something that was planned from my part, or from the part of the Commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14079             Now that I have your programming people also, what will ‑‑ it may be helpful to tell me ‑‑ what will be the proportion of music offering devoted in between the ALC and the alternative rock?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14080             MR. MAHEU:  The ‑‑ I think you might mean the Pop Top 40 ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14081             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yeah, yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14082             MR. MAHEU:  ‑‑ element

LISTNUM 1 \l 14083             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yeah, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14084             MR. MAHEU:  And the pop alternative element.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14085             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes, yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14086             MR. MAHEU:  I'm gonna ask Rick to speak to that for just a little bit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14087             I should preface it by saying our research showed pretty clearly that the Top 40 approach for the marketplace, or the CHR format formula for Sudbury, based on what listeners are telling us through the research, is a combination of pop alternative, and pop Top 40.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14088             And I think, you know, based on what we've seen, it's pretty even, but I'll let Rick talk to the music mix specifically.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14089             MR. TOMPKINS:  Definitely, thanks Mark.  The research came back almost even between pop CHR and pop alternative, so, the research would tell us that we should make it an almost 50/50 split between the pop Top 40 and the pop mix alternative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14090             MR. MAHEU:  The interesting thing about this format, though, is that, because there's a kind of a blending or merging of musical styles happening in contemporary and current based music, there are songs that fit the radio station perfectly that actually show up on both charts.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14091             If you look at alternative, you can find ‑‑ The Killers is a great band right now that's doing very well in CHR, doing very well in alternative.  Is it a CHR song, or is it an alternative song?  Is it pop alternative, or pop CHR?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14092             There's a kind of a greying of the area there, but to best explain it ‑‑ it's the most popular songs from pop Top 40 and pop alternative ‑‑ it's almost a 50/50 split, but inside of that 50/50, there are songs that actually play both sides of the fence, that can be on either chart at any given time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14093             So, I don't know if that confuses it more than clarifies it, but ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14094             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  That was to come with another question, but ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter

LISTNUM 1 \l 14095             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  But I want to say if I was to listen to your Ottawa radio station, will the format  finally be quite alike?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14096             MR. MAHEU:  Well, there ‑‑ you bring up a good point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14097             If you listen to Hot 89.9 in Ottawa, it would sound quite different than what we are proposing in Sudbury, because what happens in Ottawa, is because of the size of the market, you have more fragmentation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14098             So we happen to have an alternative station that we run, called Live 88.5, and it's alternative, and it's alternative rock.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14099             So Hot doesn't have that pop alternative ‑‑ very little of it ‑‑ anything that kind of is on that CHR chart that's alternative, it'll play, but it doesn't go very deep into there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14100             Where in Sudbury, we don't have that luxury of an alternative station, so you kinda can play a little bit more with the music mix.  So Ottawa is much more dance oriented than you would hear in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14101             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I see.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14102             MR. MAHEU:  Would that be correct, Rick?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14103             MR. TOMPKINS:  You took the words right out of my mouth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14104             MR. MAHEU:  Okay, sorry.  I should have let you say it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14105             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Well, if I may ‑‑ I'm getting younger ‑‑ I've started to ‑‑ to go down ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14106             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So maybe I will fall within the demographic of this station at some point in time.


‑‑‑ Laughter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14107             MR. MAHEU:  Is that a (inaudible) T‑shirt underneath your shirt there, I couldn't quite see.

‑‑‑ Laughter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14108             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  We ‑‑ in your oral presentation, you mentioned that 11% of your music will be done through emerging artists.  Did I also hear that it will be one out of three of Canadian content?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14109             MR. MAHEU:  Yes, well 11% of our play list ‑‑ we've committed to 11% air play for emerging artists ‑‑ so 11 songs out of every 100 we play will be emerging artists, and we're committing to 35% Canadian content, so 11 out of 35 is about one in three.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14110             So ‑‑ but the interesting thing is this format lends itself very well to the air play of emerging artists, and it's a little easier to do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14111             It's key that you find the right songs that fit the format, but there are more bands out there making pop and pop alternative music than we can tap into, and Rick has mentioned some earlier in our questioning, you know, that we could play on a radio station like Live pretty quickly.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14112             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And I understand in reading from your application, or from ‑‑ answers to deficiency letter, that obviously you agree with the definition that has been provided by the CAB to ‑‑ regarding the notion of emerging artists, even if they also say it's not a one size fit all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14113             MR. MAHEU:  We agree with the CAB in many respects, and they put together a very good brief.  The emerging artist issue is an important one for radio.  And especially with younger formats, because if we're gonna bring young people back to radio, we've got to give them a little bit of what they want, and you know, in a big way, and part of what they want, is they want new music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14114             A lot of that music's being made by bands that are unsigned, or what we call emerging artists.  There's a lot of ‑‑ there's a lot of definitions out there ‑‑ you can ask 50 Program Directors in multiple formats across the country to define emerging artists, and I think you might get 50 variations of a similar theme.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14115             We're being asked to commit to a condition of license that involves ‑‑ or potentially a condition of license ‑‑ that involves emerging artists, and we're still a little uncertain about what that criteria might be.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14116             And I guess our response in reply to deficiency was more a good faith response in the spirit of what you were trying to get at, that, you know, you have our commitment.  Yes, we are committing to play emerging artists.  We think we can do 11% of our play list, which is about one in three of the Canadian selections we did.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14117             But we're a little worried about the pipeline, and the availability, because that's something we don't control, and to make it a promise to you and the listeners of Sudbury and not be able to live up to it because of something beyond our control, worries us a little bit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14118             I think we might have to think about how we make that work, but in principle, you know, we are prepared to do what it takes to support emerging artists, and make them a bit part of the on‑air sound of Live 101 in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14119             And our definition is a little bit different that we put in deficiencies, than the CAB said, but we certainly are not that far apart, and I think we can certainly meet the criteria.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14120             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Now, the two previous applicants that we've heard, Commissioner Cram asked them the same question ‑‑ if they were ready to accept a condition of license regarding the broadcast of emerging artists at the level that they had proposed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14121             So in all fairness, I am asking you the same question.  And as a fairness question, rather than a policy question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14122             MR. MAHEU:  Sure, we would be prepared to commit to the level of air play support that we've indicated in our application and reply for emerging artists, on the condition that emerging artists are identified as we've identified them in our reply to deficiency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14123             If that changed substantively, we'd have to evaluate ‑‑ if the definition changed quite a bit, then we'd have to evaluate can we still live up to that promise, because we want to keep the promises we make.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14124             But the answer to your question, in short, is yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14125             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Because I note in the CB brief, that they're saying ‑‑ they're suggesting that we didn't make it a condition of license until sometime so that everybody had a chance to do some trial and error we'll say, before coming up to ‑‑ because you did mention that there were many definitions.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14126             As a matter of fact, I did ask the staff of the Commission to just give me a list of the definitions that were used during the radio review, and they came with nine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14127             MR. MAHEU:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14128             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Different definitions, so, now, you've picked one of those nine and but you're feeling comfortable with that specific one?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14129             MR. MAHEU:  We're feeling comfortable with the definition that we provided, that we can live up to it, otherwise we wouldn't have given it to you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14130             Obviously, broadcast ‑‑ I can't speak for all broadcasters ‑‑ but certainly for Newcap, you know, we believe in having as much flexibility as we can possibly get to do the best possible job in our markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14131             When we get a license in a market, we invest our time, our energy, our resources, we employ people who are good at what they do, and we set about to go about doing business in that market in a responsible way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14132             Every business, regulated or unregulated, we'd certainly want more flexibility, rather than less.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14133             We also understand that there have to be rules, that the licenses belong to the citizens of Canada, and the citizens of Sudbury in this particular case, and certain expectations are brought forward to people who want access to that license.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14134             So, the answer to your question is, would we prefer not to be a condition of license?  Of course we would prefer it not to be a condition of license, because that gives us the flexibility to do what we feel is best in any given situation to be competitive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14135             But if it must be a condition of us getting the license, then given the definition that we put forward to you, we're prepared to work with that and make it work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14136             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I'm bringing you into your supplementary brief.  And I'm going to your page eleven of the supplementary brief, where at the bottom, you have a number of bullets, and where you say that you will differentiate yourself from the existing commercial service available in Sudbury, by avoiding the play lists of Big Daddy, Easy Rock, Q92 NCIGM.  How will you do that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14137             MR. MAHEU:  How would we avoid duplication their play lists?


LISTNUM 1 \l 14138             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14139             MR. MAHEU:  That's pretty easy. I'll let Rick talk to that a little bit, but it comes back to the format choice that we've made.  We're in a unique situation at this hearing, because we're the only applicant that has an existing radio property, so we're in the market doing business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14140             You know, by and large, you cannot have a situation where there's 100% non‑duplication, but we know with Big Daddy, we're predominantly a gold based format ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14141             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I hope you know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14142             MR. MAHEU:  Yes, we know what we're playing on Big Daddy, and very little of that is going to be on the air at Live 101.  But I'll let Rick speak to Q92 and Easy Rock because I think those are the most important ones.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14143             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes, and (inaudible) country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14144             MR. MAHEU:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14145             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Likely that you play country music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14146             MR. MAHEU:  Very little.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14147             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Very small.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14148             MR. MAHEU:  Correct.  Rick, maybe you could talk a little bit about how we're not gonna be duplication with those two formats.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14149             MR. TOMPKINS:  Sure.  The choice of a CHR pop and alternative mix is gonna feature mostly new music.  At this point in time, there is no station in Sudbury that plays any more than 20% current new music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14150             So that'll be the main thrust of that radio station, playing the new music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14151             Also, the artists that are being played on a station of that format, are not being played in Sudbury.  There's a huge list of artists that I could go through like Justin Timberlake, Fallout Boy, and so on, that are just not being heard in Sudbury right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14152             With that being said, that's the main reason for us wanting to do a CHR format in Sudbury.  Because that's where there's an opportunity to grab the listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14153             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  We're slowly starting to move into spoken word and news, and my next question is also based on that page eleven, and it's your third bullet.  Which says:


"hiring intelligent DJ's who have something to say, know when to keep quiet, and are passionate about the city of Sudbury and a top 40 format".

LISTNUM 1 \l 14154             If I'm removing the top 40 format, say, where it says, are you there saying that your Big Daddy people are not meeting that criteria?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14155             They are not here.

‑‑‑ Laughter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14156             MR. MAHEU:  Yeah.  I think what we were trying to say in the application was ‑‑ I think the goal of every radio station ‑‑ and that is to be as relevant as you possibly can to the audience you're trying to attract.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14157             Sometimes radio has gotten a bit of a bad rap in terms of the kind of people that you would hear on a radio station and they become somewhat caricatures at times, and things are changing.  Rick alluded to it earlier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14158             We're in a world where when your cell phone rings it might not be a phone call, it might be a ‑‑ you know ‑‑ your download is complete of the song that you just purchased; or the ring tone that you just bought for your phone is a hit song.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14159             Or satellite radio and other things that are competing for time ‑‑ and I guess part of what we were trying to do when we created this idea for the radio station ‑‑ was to try to take it a step further than just another hit radio, juke box, here's another ten in a row, commercial free, on you know, Live 101, that we don't believe that that's what it's gonna take to win in the future, especially with younger listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14160             So, part of that begins with people that are smart and have things to say, and are interesting to listen to, because more and more, we can't compete on music alone.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14161             People can get music almost anywhere at any time.  And they can listen to what they want, when they want.  But if we can make it interesting between the songs, and we can do something that's relevant, interesting, and entertaining, and fun, and engage them, reach out and pull them into the radio, we might get some listeners back.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14162             And we might build some loyalty, and some good will over a period of time.  And it takes a special person to do that.  It kinda comes full circle again you know.  We talked about the person that's gonna work overnight in kind of an intern's kind of position, to be there when the radio station is off the air.  Or overnight when we're voice tracked, I'm sorry to say.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14163             When I first got in the business, you know, there was never a time when a radio station was empty.  And the overnight show was a place where people learned to be personalities, and that's where I got my start.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14164             You could go on and make mistakes and do things that, you know, you can't do in prime time, but that's how we all learn.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14165             Radio as an industry has gotten away from that.  There are fewer people out there that have skill and talent that can really inform and entertain and know how to really reach out and do a great piece of radio for a listener.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14166             We've gotta get back to that, we've gotta start somewhere.  And in markets like Sudbury, I think it's a great opportunity for us to start training and coaching, and identifying people that can go on the radio and do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14167             And they'll have an opportunity to move up through our system into bigger markets, bigger opportunities, more money, larger audiences, and so on.  But I think it begins in places like this.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14168             And that's what we were trying to do in that supplementary brief ‑‑ to really not criticize the people that are on the air, but to give you the sense that, you know, we're looking for smart people that get it; and that want to be part of something that's a little bit different.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14169             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And obviously, in Sudbury, you have as you mentioned ‑‑ you have Cambrian College that is looking for ‑‑ they will bring some new kids that want to go into the broadcasting area ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14170             MR. MAHEU:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14171             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And that is creating some opportunities for ‑‑ to try some new talent ‑‑ and sometimes you fall on a gem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14172             MR. MAHEU:  Yes, and we're luck to have Rick on that Advisory Board too, because when Rick goes in there and talks to them about the curriculum and about what these kids should be learning, and so on, you know, we need less liner readers, you know, another ten in a row coming right up after this commercial set.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14173             We need people that are taught, and are coached to do radio the way that it's going to need to be done to maintain a radio business over the next generation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14174             You know, we've talked about this before at other hearings that you know, radio is facing a bit of a crossroads, and companies like Newcap have to take a look ‑‑ we have a responsibility to look at where is the future.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14175             We're not getting out of this business any time soon, we're gonna be here for a long time.  And we need to have listeners and a business for a long time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14176             So, it's up to us, nobody is gonna do it for us. You can't regulate people to listen.  It's up to us to figure out ‑‑ we wish we could ‑‑ but it's up to us to go out and build a product that is going to attract a audience, and we think that begins with people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14177             Because they are one of the natural resources that cannot be duplicated.  Songs, play lists, promotions, prizes, can be duplicated by any broadcaster anywhere, anytime.  People can't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14178             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  On your page thirteen ‑‑ you have a description of some of your features ‑‑ or the developed spoken word programming that you're planning.  One of them is titled:  "Voices from Sudbury" for which you have a fairly broad description.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14179             My first question to you is, are you doing that type of programming in your other more younger radio stations, like say, St. John's, Ottawa, or Edmonton, that you've mentioned earlier being quite ‑‑ having some significant ties with that format?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14180             MR. MAHEU:  We are doing different initiatives in different markets, and they are very market specific, because as we had mentioned a little earlier, every station is unique in its' market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14181             We have top 40 offerings in a number of places, but the competitive environment, the size of the market, and the ‑‑ how long the station's been in the marketplace, and so on, all determine the kind of programming we put on the air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14182             In Ottawa for instance, you mentioned, we do an interesting program on Alive 88.5 called Cornache's Café on Sunday mornings, and it's a real combination of triple A and alternative music, but it's interspersed with stories, anecdotes and so on by the host, and it almost kinda goes back to the old FM policy days when you're into mosaic and foreground programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14183             It's funny how those things kind of all come full circle.  They're back in again, it's a way to be different than anybody else, because nobody's doing it.  And it's really focused on an audience that's 25 to 34.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14184             We air some programming in Ottawa, the continuing history of new music, where we look at ‑‑ it's a syndicated program ‑‑ it's about punk and alternative, and it goes back in a lot of spoken word, talking about the history of how we got to where we are today in alternative and rock music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14185             We're doing it in some places.  We're experimenting in places like Ottawa where we got a new license, and we're seeing how it works.  It's like that 11:00 show at night, we're doing it in Ottawa, we want to do it in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14186             It's going to take ‑‑ it's a bit of a work in progress everywhere and we can't ‑‑ and we don't as a company send out an edict.  It's not like a network where we say, okay, now everybody doing this format, we're doing this thing now at 11:00.  We let each market pretty much run on it's own.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14187             Wendy manages Sudbury like she owns it, and she makes her decisions based on what she needs to do in Sudbury, which may be very different than Thunder Bay, Winnipeg, or Calgary.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14188             So we're reluctant to roll things out on a corporate wide basis.  But what we do do is we get our Program Directors on a regular basis together and we talk about what's working and what we need to do.  And they share ideas and then things start to get planted, and those seeds grow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14189             So we're doing some of it in some markets, but it's not a uniform roll out in any way, shape or form.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14190             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And at which time of the day are you planning to broadcast that voice of Sudbury?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14191             MR. MAHEU:  Rick, you've got the list, if you wouldn't mind letting our Vice‑Chair know when we're going to run that program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14192             MR. TOMPKINS:  I believe it's Sunday night at 8:00 p.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14193             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  That's ‑‑ and at 8:00 p.m., and it's for an hour long.  And the program that you're planning from Sunday to Thursday, which is on eleven to midnight, is more youth driven, or more student driven than the Voice of Sudbury?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14194             Cause ‑‑ because again, you have the school teachers, and you have obviously ‑‑ in the Voice of Sudbury, you are mentioning that you have mine workers, politicians, poets, school teachers; but the other one is more for the students themselves.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14195             MR. MAHEU:  Yes.  The Live at Eleven‑‑ I'm going to let Carrie Ann talk a little bit about the Live at Eleven and how it's different.  But Live at Eleven is a little more issue driven, topicality driven, because it is a five night a week program, where, you know, the Voices from Sudbury program may be theme specific for a one hour program in the week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14196             The Sunday through Thursday show at 11:00, you know ‑‑ if Anna Nicole Smith's death and the autopsy is the huge issue that everybody is talking about and you're seeing on TV tonight ‑‑ that's probably going to take up some of that air time tonight at 11:00.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14197             Tomorrow night it might be something very different, where something topical happens in the news.  It might be a fatal car crash that involved a drunk driver in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14198             Then that might be the opportunity to have somebody from Mothers Against Drunk Driving in to talk about the risks and dangers.  So I think the ‑‑ you know ‑‑ Carrie Ann can talk about that, but it will be more topically driven on the program.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14199             MS TANTALO:  Yes, that's right.  And we will have the news department supporting the program when it comes to research, or you know, going out into the community to, you know, get some tape on what people on the streets have to say about it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14200             We will be recruiting some local young people from the schools, the colleges, the Universities, the high schools, and have them come in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14201             They will be supervised by ‑‑ there will be a host from Live 101 that would be in the studio with them, to supervise and make sure that it's ‑‑ you know ‑‑ that they're aware of the standards and you know, whatever rules need to be abided by.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14202             And, we'd like to get ‑‑ I'm very excited to get ‑‑ some local people have their say on the air.  Give them a platform where we can discuss issues, and you know, they can call in, they can e‑mail in, they can text message in, and have their voices heard, and have an expert there that can answer the questions that they need answered.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14203             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Can you elaborate on the role of the news department in that program?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14204             Did you just say that you will be providing them with some support; but could you elaborate on that because obviously that takes resource and that means that those resource will not be on the beat.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14205             They won't be doing the news casts, or how are you looking to manage that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14206             MS TANTALO:  How do we see it working?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14207             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14208             MS TANTALO:  Well, we will have three full time news people working on Live 101 and we're hoping that what'll happen is ‑‑ right now we've got two full time and one part‑time news dedicated employees on Big Daddy ‑‑ so, you know, right away, by increasing our news staff by over 100%, that'll actually beef up the news on both stations, and it will help Big Daddy as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14209             So, we will have, you know, we'll have a news room, five full time people, a part‑time person, and you know, that'll give us the opportunity to get out there and cover more and act as support for shows such as Live at Eleven.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14210             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Obviously, you will have a common news room ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14211             MS TANTALO:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14212             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Which will be made up of five news people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14213             MS TANTALO:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14214             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So, because I heard that you said you're gonna have a News Director.  And what will be the duty of this News Director?  Will he be reading the news ‑‑ will he be ‑‑ or will he be really directing the news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14215             MS TANTALO:  Yeah, that's something that will be worked out.  The way I see it now is ‑‑ we will have two senior News Editors, one for each station, that will work with the Program Director, when it comes to scheduling, and making sure that everything is covered.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14216             Those senior News Editors will both be on the air, perhaps in a co‑host in the morning show situation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14217             And then we will have ‑‑ they will be separate ‑‑ the news staff, but they will work together.  So say there's a City Council ‑‑ we don't need to send two reporters out to City Council, say ‑‑  one reporter would go, bring back the information, and then the News Directors for each station would be responsible for making sure that those news stories are specific to what the demographics on each of the separate stations are, and that they're being covered in a manner that's suitable for each of the stations.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14218             MR. MAHEU:  If I could, just to follow up on what Carrie Ann was talking about ‑‑ it's important to understand that the radio stations are very different, and they're ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14219             MS TANTALO:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14220             MR. MAHEU:  And they're targeted at two completely different audiences.  So right now on Big Daddy 103.9, we're really predominantly adult, 35 to 54 audience.  With Live, we're really focusing 12 to 34, so when Carrie Ann talks about we're sending out one reporter to City Hall to cover whatever story is going on, or doing some interviews or streeters, there may a story that is going to air on both radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14221             But the important point is that that story should not sound the same on both radio stations.  If it's the same story, word for word, on both radio stations, A ‑ we're not doing our job properly, and B ‑ listeners aren't getting what they really need or want, because the expectations and the interests of a woman who is 49 are going to be quite different than a young man who is 19.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14222             And although they both may be interested in a tax proposal coming from City Hall about property taxes, the "what's in it for me", or "how does that affect me" part of what's going on in everybody's head is quite different.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14223             So we need to handle the stories differently.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14224             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Particularly at 19.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14225             MR. MAHEU:  Yeah, correct.

‑‑‑ Laughter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14226             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I don't care, it's my dad who pays the bill.

‑‑‑ Laughter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14227             MR. MAHEU:  That's pretty much it, so, you know, we're going to have joint resources in the news room where we have five people, but in terms of the writing and the presentation, and the delivery of the content, it should be quite different on both.  And that's the key.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14228             Otherwise, if we're doing CHR news, or young skewed news on a 35 to 54 radio station like Big Daddy, we're in trouble.  And visa versa, if we're doing, you know, the kind of news content and approach that we're doing on a classic hits radio station for a younger audience, they're gone.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14229             So we need to speak their language, know what they're interested in, and it's going to be up to ‑‑ Rick is the Program Director, and Carrie Ann is the News Director ‑‑ to make sure that that is being done properly.  And we're pretty confident that we can do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14230             MS TANTALO:  Yes, and currently news in Sudbury is not being presented to that demographic specifically, so ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14231             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So I'm back to that Live 101 program, evening program to which the news department will give support.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14232             MS TANTALO:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14233             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So that ‑‑ that one resource ‑‑ will that one resource still be available to either be a reporter or ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14234             MS TANTALO:  Oh, certainly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14235             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Or strict news cast or ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14236             MS TANTALO:  Certainly.  They would not be ‑‑ there would not be any person specifically dedicated just to the one show.  There would be some support available there, but it would not take over a whole job, and take a whole news person away from the operation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14237             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  The reason why I am asking that question is basically, generally speaking, these types of programs are fairly requiring senior human resource to structure them, because the younger people ‑‑ they come ‑‑ but they never did any radio programming before, so they need to ‑‑ they need more help than obviously the more professional people that you will be able to find so ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14238             So who's gonna be ‑‑ at the end of the day ‑‑ who's gonna be responsible to make sure that that program has high quality, and ‑‑ is high quality, and is structured professionally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14239             MR. MAHEU:  Right, it has to meet those requirements, Mr. Vice‑Chair, there's no question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14240             To answer your question specifically, the core of the program ‑‑ the consistency in the program comes with the host.  We are going to have a dedicated host for this program, okay, you know, five nights a week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14241             We're going to include guest hosts, virtually as many nights as we can on this program.  So ‑‑ when I say a host ‑‑ this is somebody who's employed by Live 101, they're ‑‑ they work for the radio station.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14242             The program directions ‑‑ what's going to be on that show each night ‑‑ really begins with the programming department.  Rick's the Program Director of the radio station and, you know, Rick's in charge of everything that goes on the air from a commercial, to the types of news casts that we have, how many we have, what kind of music we play, etc.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14243             So, this is a programming component that begins with the Program Director, and the Program Director's vision and understanding of what listeners want.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14244             The Program Director is going to work with the News Director of the radio station.  They're gonna ‑‑ I ‑‑ we haven't talked this all the way through ‑‑ but I am anticipating there's a weekly meeting ‑‑ what kinds of things can we be looking at this week ‑‑ subject to change with topicality coming in.  We've got to schedule some things in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14245             And the News Department I think is going to be used more as the resource to help line up some interviews; to line up some guests; working with the host, and so on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14246             You're absolutely correct, the last thing we want to have is people without any experience, who are unskilled coming in and grabbing a microphone and having their way with the audience for an hour.  Because we won't have much of an audience left when it's all over.  Best intentions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14247             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Four times a week.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14248             MR. MAHEU:  Correct.  So ‑‑ you know, we're going to need somebody there working for us five nights a week, from 11:00 til midnight, that has talk radio experience and background, that understands the CBFC Code of Conduct, that understands the rules, that understands what we're trying to do with the program.  And they're the constant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14249             nd then we're going to have students and other people come in and be those guest hosts and talk about the issues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14250             But they're always going to have their hand held quite carefully by somebody who owns this program in their mind, this is their responsibility.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14251             We're also going to have a Producer/Call Screener in the studio as well that's going to help out taking calls and screening them before they go on the air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14252             So we knows who's talking about what, and what's going on so that we can create the kind of program on the air that a listener is going to enjoy listening to and it's not gonna sound like an amateur hour production.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14253             It should sound live, and it shouldn't sound too slick, because these are people that don't have a lot of experience.  But there's got to be some professional quality, consistency and standard in the presentation, and that's where that kind of permanent host who's always going to be there at 11:00 at night comes in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14254             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I had a few questions to ask regarding spoken word, but I think that the table that you've provided us will meet our ‑‑ probably even more than ‑‑ our expectations, so ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14255             I notice that in your submission, and you are saying that you are planning interactive dialogue with the audience, and obviously, with that age group, it's something that needs to be done ‑‑ and that but ‑‑ and I note that you were talking about blogs, SMS broadcasts, and other technology ‑‑ what are you really planning to do, and are you doing ‑‑ already doing that in other markets?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14256             MR. MAHEU:  In the way we interact ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14257             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14258             MR. MAHEU:  ‑‑ with the listeners.  Yes, we're actually ‑‑ we're pioneering a number of different ideas in several different markets.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14259             And we're trying some different things in different markets, and our Program Directors and our Managers are talking back and forth, comparing notes on what's working, and what's not working.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14260             One of the things we're doing in some markets is really diving into text messaging.  Especially with younger audiences, and younger listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14261             It's just amazing ‑‑ I have teenagers ‑‑ and this one‑handed text messaging on cell phones is unbelievable what's going on here ‑‑ back and forth ‑‑ it's how they're communicating now.  They're not talking on the phone.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14262             So, you know, radio traditionally has relied on, you know, well we'll take the 7th caller or call us now with your request ‑‑ and so on.  Those days are over with younger listeners.  They would prefer, and actually choose to use text messaging.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14263             So we're starting to really get into that.  We're staying away from things like chat rooms and so on because there's liability issues there.  And  there's problems there that we don't necessarily want to be part of, or be seen to be creating.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14264             But there are other technologies too that are coming along including broadcast directed cell phones.  You know, secondary format options that could be not broadcast over the air.  But maybe broadcast only using the internet, or directly to cell phones.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14265             We're looking at the opportunities that are presenting themselves with instant messaging, which is a huge part of the culture and the life of the people under the age of 30.  For many over 30 as well, but predominantly under 30, it's how they communicate these days.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14266             We're looking at opportunities with in‑studio web cams and so on in some of our radio stations.  It's where our listeners can interact with the personality on the air when they're not talking.  And they can see what's going on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14267             So, we're looking at all the possibilities, and I'm sure by the time ‑‑ if we ever‑‑ if we were lucky enough to get Live 101 in Sudbury, things will continue to grow and adapt.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14268             There's things we never even dreamed of that could be part of our regular programming, or interaction in the future.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14269             But, with this young audience, it's important to be kind of looking over the leading edge of where things are going, because we need to be there to be relevant to them, and what they're doing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14270             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Are you doing podcasting somewhere?


LISTNUM 1 \l 14271             MR. MAHEU:  We're doing some podcasting now.  In some of our radio stations, you're able to pick up podcasts of morning shows; bits and jokes or gag commercials that we've done; or funny moments; or highlight packages and so on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14272             We're ‑‑ in some cases, you can download podcasts of extra content that didn't make the morning show, or you know, the five minutes that you didn't hear on the morning show this morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14273             And we're looking at experimenting with other things as well.  The interesting thing with podcasting, though, is ‑‑ I don't know if you've seen the new Edison research study that was out last week ‑‑ it's for the US, but it probably mirrors what's going on in Canada pretty well as well ‑‑ and it showed clearly that podcast usage among people under the age of 35 has stopped growing.  It kind of plateaued.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14274             It hasn't grown in the past year ‑‑ the number of people that are subscribing or listening to podcasts on a regular basis.  They're not sure whether that has to do with the content that's available out there, or whether people are finding it too much trouble.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14275             But, you know, we think that any way that we can use technology to build a relationship with a listener, or to enhance the relationship we've already built, is worth looking at.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14276             And it enhances our ability to interact them because we want customers for life.  We want people to grow with us, and we're trying to build a brand, and a frequency modulation signal at 101.1 is just one way to do that.  And we have to find other ways to kind of supplement that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14277             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And I would suspect that a program like Live 101, and the ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14278             MR. MAHEU:  Voices from Sudbury ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14279             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Voices from Sudbury are programs that could be easily end up on a podcast.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14280             MR. MAHEU:  Absolutely, because ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14281             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  They're totally oral content, so no music ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14282             MR. MAHEU:  No rights issues, no copyright issues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14283             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  No copyright issues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14284             MR. MAHEU:  Yeah, and it's proprietary content that we've created.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14285             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14286             MR. MAHEU:  That we could re‑task, or edit, or whatever, and make available.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14287             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  A few questions on the CCD.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14288             Because we got your reply of March 20th, but in your last reply ‑‑ obviously ‑‑ in your ‑‑ finally at the end ‑‑ you're summing up and saying that you still want to send money to Radio Star Maker Fund, and in the ‑‑ in the radio policy of December 15th, we said that no more money to the Radio Star Maker fund on new applications.  Only on ownership transactions.  The ‑‑ did you have an alternative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14289             MR. MAHEU:  I'd like to take a ‑‑ yes, we do have an alternative ‑‑ but before ‑‑ if I may ‑‑ just before we get into that, Mr. Vice‑Chair ‑‑ yes, we ‑‑ in reply to deficiency on March 20th, we reiterated our support for the Radio Star Maker fund.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14290             We have been big supporters of Radio Star Maker fund.  We believe they do good work as factor does.  And that their work is worthwhile and showing benefit to emerging Canadian artists.  And helping some careers in a very meaningful way.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14291             The new Radio Policy from the CRTC did mention that the Star Maker fund would be for transfers, although our interpretation when we read it ‑‑ it didn't implicitly say:  "could not be part of new license applications".  So we were looking for some sort of guidance on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14292             But, if in fact ‑‑ we'd like to leave it ‑‑ and if it was acceptable to you ‑‑ we'd like to leave that support for Radio Star Maker.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14293             If it is unacceptable based on the new policy, then what we would like to propose is that we would ‑‑ if licensed, we would like to come back to the Commission and we would propose to take that money that Radio Star Maker would have ‑‑ $40,000 annually ‑‑ and split it evenly between an additional $20,000 each year for MFM and another $20,000 a year to a new initiative for journalism opportunities at Cambrian College for training future radio journalists, with a First Nations aboriginal component that would be built in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14294             We would bring back details for you on that if we were licensed, so there is an alternative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14295             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So, we will take that under advisement ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14296             MR. MAHEU:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14297             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And obviously ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14298             MR. MAHEU:  And we would consider that a condition of license.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14299             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  That's obvious.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14300             MR. MAHEU:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14301             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  At the end of the day, it's gonna end up being a condition of license.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14302             Synergies ‑‑ are you planning any synergies ‑‑ well obviously there will be synergies between the two ‑‑ the Big Daddy, and Live 101 ‑‑ but are you planning to have some sort of synergies with your CHIT here in Ottawa?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14303             MR. MAHEU:  No, we're not contemplating that.  And that's ‑‑ as we talked about in our opening remarks ‑‑ I think the only synergies that we were looking for there was that we'd be running the weekly Canadian hit 30 countdown that's produced here in Ottawa.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14304             And we send it out to a number of our contemporary stations within Newcap.  It's kind of a homegrown show that we've done, but everything else is stand alone for Live 101.  The only synergies that we anticipate with our own station are obviously back office sales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14305             We talked a little bit about how the news room would provide synergies to each other, and combine resource to bring more service outside, but other than that, it's a stand alone.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14306             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Business consideration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14307             And they are very limited, but what ‑‑ one they really intrigued me ‑‑ is ‑‑ and obviously that was a benefit of the LSA ‑‑ but in terms of per capita spending ‑‑ advertising spending ‑‑ Sudbury is at one of the top markets in the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14308             Do you think that now that the LSA has been terminated that the same level of spending per capita will be sustainable?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14309             MR. MAHEU:  I might ask Wendy to comment on that a little bit as well because she's in the market every day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14310             I'd like to think it's because the broadcasters in Sudbury have done such a good job of positioning radio as a very effective and cost efficient way to advertise and promote your business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14311             And I think Rogers and Newcap have done that, sales agreements aside.  But, Wendy, you might have a little bit of insight, being there every day.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14312             MS WATSON:  Thanks very much, Mark. I'm glad you asked that question Mr. Lapin, because one thing that anyone who's lived in Sudbury for any significant period of time can tell you is ‑‑ it's very cyclical ‑‑ it's a metals market.  We are at the whim of the price of nickel.  Nickel right now ‑‑ all time highs, incredible.  And it's primarily driven by the demand out of China.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14313             But even today in the Globe and Mail, there was an article about one of our major employers‑‑  Extrata ‑‑ attempting to purchase another metal producer ‑‑ Lyoner ‑‑ and nickel analysts in that article said they expect the demand for nickel to be constant for a couple more years.  But, they also expect that, inevitably, the cycle will crash ‑‑ the cycle will come back down.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14314             It wasn't too long ago, when we were at about $5 a pound, or less, and the nickel companies had a huge push on to drive down their cost of production.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14315             I mean, the mantra was:  "under $3. a pound production costs by the year" ‑‑ and I wish I could remember the year ‑‑ it was about 1993.  That is what Inco and Falconbridge ‑‑ the companies at the time ‑‑ were striving for.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14316             Well, you know, the worm has turned ‑‑ they've got their production costs down ‑‑ the cost of ‑‑ or the price of nickel is incredible.  You know, think about it, if their cost is $3 a pound, and they can command $20 a pound on the open market, then they're talking about tons, not pounds.  Profits are at an all time high.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14317             What happens in our community is ‑‑ those profits trickle down to the consumer in the form of nickel bonus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14318             So, right now, it's sort of a double whammy.  Not only did both major companies, CDRD Inco, and Extrata, which now owns Falconbridge ‑‑ recently signed the labour contracts with their unions, they have recently paid out nickel bonuses and they've given signing bonuses to the union's, just so they can keep them producing the $20 a pound nickel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14319             Inevitably, we think that's going to turn, so, while we're in a great period right now ‑‑ I mean, it's all very well and good ‑‑ and I guess you have to make hay while the sun shines ‑‑ but you also have to be smart about the way you do your business and plan your business.  What you can sustain today ‑‑ can you sustain it going forward?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14320             And when we make a promise to you for seven years to deliver something, we want to make sure that we can sustain that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14321             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So, this leads me to my next question ‑‑ how many new stations do you think that the Sudbury market could come?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14322             MS WATSON:  Given the current ‑‑ the current for commercial FM licenses that are in place ‑‑ that are already serving the older demographic ‑‑ I would say one more station, as long as they're targeting a younger demographic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14323             I would say, in my opinion, of course, it's our application.  We are the only applicant here before you today and possibly tomorrow, that is focusing on an unserved constituency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14324             The 12 to 34 year old is ‑‑ you know, a few of them are listening to classic rock.  You know, we said in our opening comments that the classic rock station in the community, which is operated by Rogers, attracts men from 18 upward, but no one is serving the 12 to 18 year old.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14325             And what about the younger female?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14326             There are several applications before you in this session that are talking about the older demographic, the older demographic, and we already are operating a station with an older demographic target.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14327             Big Daddy, which is a classic hit station, focuses on 35 to 44 as our core ‑‑ or 49, sorry, as our core and then if you want to extrapolate it a bit, 35 to 54.  Sure, we get a few listeners that are younger, a few listeners that are older, but we know that operating a stand alone with that older demographic target is more desirable than operating a stand alone with the young demographic target; but it still ‑‑ it's a tough proposition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14328             We think that one new license and our application could be absorbed easily by the market.  But that's all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14329             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I got probably carried away by what you all said ‑‑ but I forgot my usual question about demographic ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14330             MR. MAHEU:  25

‑‑‑ Laughter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14331             MR. MAHEU:  The median age of the format proposes 25.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14332             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  25.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14333             MR. MAHEU:  Yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14334             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And it's skewed male or female?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14335             MR. MAHEU:  It's slightly more female than male.  But it's ‑‑ the skew is a little bit closer than it normally would be, because with a typical CHR, it tends to be kinda 65 ‑ 70% female ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14336             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  M'hmm.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14337             MR. MAHEU:  This one is more like 60/40 because of the more pop alternative inclusion, so a few more males than you normally get in the format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14338             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So, Miss Chairman ‑‑ Miss Chair ‑‑ I never understood that you were called guys, but that's ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14339             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Anyhow, that editorial coming from my part ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14340             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I will say.  I'm very capable of digging myself ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14341             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Because I will reserve any editorial comment on my part.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14342             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yeah.  Miss Chair, this completes my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14343             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Before we go to legal counsel, I just have one question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14344             Do you consider your proposal to be competitive with that ‑‑ with the proposal brought forward by Connelly Communications.  Cause when I look at their list of artists that they feature ‑‑ it looks like a lot of the artists they will feature could also be featured on this.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14345             And I'd just like to mention that if Mr. ‑‑ if Vice‑Chair Arpin is wearing a T‑shirt, it's probably Arcade Fire.

‑‑‑ Laughter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14346             MR. MAHEU:  Look into my neon Bible here and give you the answer ‑‑ the proposal from Connelly for basically ‑‑ was described as a hot AC radio station.  We would not consider it competitive necessarily with what we're proposing for Live 101.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14347             A hot AC radio station, and a hot AC format is fundamentally different than a pop CHR, pop alternative offering that we're proposing here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14348             Hot AC tends to really focus on adults 35 ‑ 54.  We consider that very competitive with Big Daddy, for sure.  A hot AC radio station, as proposed by the Connelly group, would certainly have a negative impact on Big Daddy 103.9.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14349             But not on Live 101, because they're really ‑‑ they're quite different, and they target demographically very, very different constituencies, so no.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14350             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for that.  Legal ‑‑ I'm sorry ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 14351             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Just, Madame Chair.  Excuse me.  Just to finish off on the economic question, Ms Tompkins ‑‑ we asked our financial people to do a correlation between the advertising market and the price of nickel products, which turns out to be fairly strong.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14352             But on the other hand, the retail spending doesn't seem to fluctuate as dramatically with the price of nickel as we expected, and therefore led us to be more optimistic about the market than we would otherwise have been.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14353             I mean ‑‑ could you ‑‑ do you have any thoughts on this ‑‑ I mean you're really the only applicant who's in a position to give us, I think ‑‑ have the resources to give us a thoughtful answer ‑‑ maybe there is no thoughtful answer, but I thought I'd give you the opportunity if you have any comments on it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14354             MS WATSON:  Well certainly, Mr. French, I have thoughts on it.  You know, whether my crystal ball's accurate today or not, I don't know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14355             However, Sudbury has become increasingly a magnet community for northern Ontario. We recently are sharing a new medical school with the city of Thunder Bay.  It's a split campus, a very unique proposition, that has brought a lot of economic activity to the community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14356             We have more and more big box stores.  So when you're looking at the retail spend and what is being spent in our community ‑‑ people are coming into our place to shop.  They're coming to go to school, they're coming for health care, and other expertise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14357             Does that have anything to do with the price of nickel?  Well I think it goes to the increasingly diversified economy, but we're still essentially tied to our core business, which is producing nickel, and all the spin‑off services that are related to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14358             MR. MAHEU:  If I may too, just follow up.  It's something that is just kind of obvious in a lot of situations ‑‑ in a lot of markets we do business in ‑‑ and the Bank of Canada information kind of bears this out too when you take a look at the level of Canadian debt, as a percentage of GDP.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14359             Canadians ‑‑ and not just in Sudbury‑‑ I think tend to spend money whether they have it or not.  And when times are good in Sudbury, the debt levels would probably if you looked at it ‑‑ we don't have that information ‑‑ but I'm guessing ‑‑ that you would ‑‑ I imagine that when times are good ‑‑ the amount of debt that people are taking on would be a little less because of the bonuses and so on that they're getting.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14360             But people ‑‑ even when times get tough ‑‑ the trend has been with the growing amount of credit card and personal line of credit debt ‑‑ that people will spend money whether they have it or not.  They'll just ‑‑ they'll take it on as debt.  So retail spending continues to grow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14361             We've been through a pretty good rise in economic activity in most markets across Canada ‑‑ things have been good for a number of years ‑‑ but we've seen it I think before ‑‑ heading into recessions ‑‑ where ‑‑ and even when recessions begin ‑‑ spending continues to be there, but people are doing it with borrowed money, rather than cash that they have on hand, so ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14362             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  So the net then is that we can be at least moderately optimistic about the robustness of Sudbury's economic situation, despite the fact that on a strict GDP per capita basis it's not one of the big winners in the Canadian lottery sweepstakes, and it's demographic future's not all that attractive either, relative to other Canadian centres.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14363             MR. MAHEU:  I would say that's pretty accurate.  You know, we're not ‑‑ by saying ‑‑ we're not saying by any stretch that, you know, there's dark clouds around the corner, but I think for folks that have lived in Sudbury most of their lives ‑‑ we've talked about it quite a bit ‑‑ the boom and bust cycle will continue ‑‑ maybe the low end of the bust will be higher than the last low end, but things do go in cycles, and there will be a time when nickel will not be as valuable as it is today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14364             And the way things are happening in the world right now ‑‑ Sudbury's kinda unique because it does have a diversified economy, but a large portion of the economic activity is tied to commodity prices.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14365             And if the Bank of China wants to devalue their currency, and that has an impact on interest rates, and that has an impact on cooling their economy down.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14366             And their need for nickel goes down ‑‑ that's going to have a direct overnight impact on the value of nickel and the number of jobs and the economic wealth it creates ‑‑ so ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14367             We're kind of susceptible to what's going on out there in the world, but ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 14368             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  But the history suggests that you're less susceptible in the particular market  that you're engaged in than one would intuitively suspect, because it seems that advertise ‑‑ for reasons you've ‑‑ you know, you've given us some hypothetical reasons why this may be ‑‑ there seems to be some kind of a damping effect, because the advertising market for radio seems to carry on regardless.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14369             MR. MAHEU:  Yes, it does, and part of that ‑‑ not just radio ‑‑ but if you look at the total aggregate spend on advertising in general ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14370             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14371             MR. MAHEU:  Part of that is driven by the number of ‑‑ the increasing number of advertising choices that are out there.  The more types of advertising that's available, means more sales people selling it, more marketing of it, and more of it's going to be sold.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14372             So, even when you go into slower economic times, if you have more advertising opportunities being sold by more people, each one of them is doing a little bit less, but the aggregate total continues to grow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14373             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  So I retain ‑‑ just in some way ‑‑ there's two palliative factors ‑‑ one is that Sudbury's now a public ‑‑ centre of public administration with public spending; and the second is that people continue to spend even in bad times, by accumulating more personal debt.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14374             And that means that the radio business is potentially a fairly attractive one, despite the situation of Sudbury ‑‑ the relatively unfavourable situation of Sudbury ‑‑ if you look at some of the national parameters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14375             MR. MAHEU:  I would say, the first part of what you just said is a fact, the second part is my opinion ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14376             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  A hypothesis, yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14377             MR. MAHEU:  Yeah, my opinion.  And I think that we would all wholeheartedly agree with you that Sudbury is a good place to do business.  And on the whole, the future is quite bright for Sudbury, regardless of the risks that are out there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14378             And we think that the radio business will be a good viable one now and well into the future.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14379             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑Chair Arpin has some follow‑up questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14380             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes, not a follow‑up question, but I forgot to ask.  But is BDS measuring the Sudbury market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14381             MR. MAHEU:  BDS and Media Base both ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14382             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Both?


LISTNUM 1 \l 14383             MR. MAHEU:  Yes (inaudible)of the market, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14384             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I see, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14385             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Legal counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14386             MS DIONNE:  Hello.  In your oral presentation, you mentioned a survey research, I think mandated by Kasoff and Associates?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14387             MR. MAHEU:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14388             MS DIONNE:  Am I correct that this research was not filed with your application?  Or is not on the public file?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14389             MR. MAHEU:  You may not have it.  We could certainly give it to you if you'd like a copy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14390             MS DIONNE:  Could you file it today as soon as possible for ‑‑ to allow the public to look at it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14391             MR. MAHEU:  We'll file it with the Examination Room within the hour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14392             MS DIONNE:  Thank you.  With regard to Canadian content contributions, would you be able to provide letters from School Boards that would confirm that the funds will be spent in a manner consistent with the policy?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14393             MR. MAHEU:  Yes, we will.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14394             MS DIONNE:  For music.  Could you do that by April 13th, two weeks?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14395             MR. MAHEU:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14396             MS DIONNE:  And I had a question regarding your contribution to music and film in motion.  How can you ensure that the money will be spent on ‑‑ in accordance with the policy ‑‑ to favour audio content, music, or spoken words, not film?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14397             MR. MAHEU:  It's a very important part of our oversight of that money spent.  We are going to support ‑‑ and they're going to be appearing as an intervener ‑‑ and if there are any specific questions, you would certainly have a chance to ask them about that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14398             But in terms of ‑‑ our responsibility is to provide the funding to them, but it goes a step further ‑‑ along with writing the cheque, we want to be a partner with MFM in the way that that money is spent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14399             And there's a certain amount of oversight and accountability to us as their benefactor, that the money is going or what they said it was going to be going for, because that's the agreement we have, and they're very good people.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14400             And we assume that they're going to live up to what they told us, but there's also ‑‑ the step we're taking is that we're going to require a report from them each year to outline what was ‑‑ what the money was spent on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14401             And we also want to be partners with them on an ongoing basis, and meet with them regularly, so we know what the money is being spent on on a regular basis, and we're not surprised at the end of the year that it went to something that it wasn't supposed to be for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14402             MS DIONNE:  Could we get a letter from the record from this initiative, ensuring that they will spend the money in accordance with the policy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14403             MR. MAHEU:  Yes, absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14404             MS DIONNE:  So, by 13th of April I guess.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14405             MR. MAHEU:  We can do that by the 13th, Wendy?  Yes, we can.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14406             MS DIONNE:  All right.  With regard to emerging Canadian artists, I know you've discussed with Commissioner Arpin about your definition with regard to the CAB definition, and you mentioned that yours was slightly different.  I think your definition is tied with record sales.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14407             And the CAB definition is based on air play.  So, would you still accept a COL if we were to adopt the CAB definition, or what would be the level of emerging artists that you would be prepared to air if we take the CAB definition based on air play?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14408             MR. MAHEU:  Obviously, we have made a commitment to the air play of emerging Canadian artists.  And we're taking a bit of a shot in the dark here, because it hasn't ‑‑ as we've discussed ‑‑ hasn't been fully flushed out what that definition is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14409             And we're trying to do our best within the spirit of good will to do what is right.  It's a little easier for us, because it is a part of what we want to do anyhow.  We've committed to 11% of our play list being from emerging artists, which is almost one in three of every Canadian song that we're going to play.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14410             I don't think it would have a material impact if it was a condition of license with the CAB definition vs. ours.  Ours has a certain amount of music sales threshold in there in the definition, where the CAB, it's basically air play.  I guess, in the end, if that's what it took to be able to put this radio station on in Sudbury, yes, we would accept that as a condition of license.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14411             MS DIONNE:  Thank you Madame Chair.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14412             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Maheu, the start of your two minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14413             MR. MAHEU:  Yeah, if you don't mind, I'd like to ‑‑ I think Wendy Watson, who is the Manager of our business in Sudbury, and is the best person to tell you why we're the licensed ‑‑ so if you don't mind, that'd be great.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14414             MS WATSON:  Thanks very much Mark.  So why us?  That's a really good question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14415             Well, several reasons.  We will serve the largest unserved constituency of listeners in our market, the 12 to 34 year olds.  We will provide a home for new and emerging artists, particularly those locals via air play and promotion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14416             We are taking a targeted innovative approach to both news and spoken word programming.  We are the only applicant to do comprehensive, multi‑format research across all demos to determine a format which we will be confident will work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14417             We've pledged to devote $4.6 million  to programming expenses over our seven license term.  One million more than the next highest applicant.  And, over $1 million to Canadian content development over that same seven year license term, or whenever we start broadcasting.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14418             We will have minimal impact on other English broadcasters currently in the market.  Newcap has a track record of keeping promises.  Now we've made a whole lot of promises today.  Not only do we intend to keep them, but we are able to keep those promises.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14419             We have a commitment to our marketplace and our people.  That means staff and listeners.  We want to be an employer of choice, and we work very diligently at it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14420             We are involved in, and supportive of countless community initiatives and organizations and we know from our experience that a stand alone in Sudbury is hard pressed to survive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14421             Approval of this license for Newcap allows us to touch the most difficult to reach audience is radio, that being young listeners.  The synergies stemming from our two station operation, if approved, would allow us to grow our business, and our relationships and cement our presence in this community, without compromising anyone's operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14422             And finally, because we will be exactly what we've chosen to name our station, Live 101.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14423             Thank you for your time today, Madame Chair, and Commissioners.  I would also like to thank all of those people who are perspective listeners, and who have offered their support to us in this process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14424             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.  We will now take a fifteen minute break, and resume at 4:15.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 15:58

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 16:22

LISTNUM 1 \l 14425             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14426             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with Item 16 on the agenda, which is an application by Connelly Communications Corporation, for a license to operate an English‑language commercial radio programming undertaking in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14427             The new station would operate on frequency 101.1 Mhz, Channel 266C1, with an effective radiated power of 66,000 watts, non‑directional antenna, antenna height of 121 metres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14428             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Rob Connelly, who will introduce his colleagues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14429             You will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.  Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION


LISTNUM 1 \l 14430             MR. CONNELLY:  Thank you.  Good afternoon, Madame Chair, Commissioners and CRTC staff.  My name is Rob Connelly.  I am the President and owner of Connelly Communications, and I will begin by introducing my team.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14431             Seated to my right is the General Manager and Sales Manager of our New Liskeard radio station, CJTT FM.  Gail's been with our company as of yesterday, 29 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14432             To my left is my cousin, Ann Connelly, our National Sales Manager, and Sales Manager for our Kirkland Lake radio station CJKL FM.  And last week, actually, Ann celebrated her 20th year with our company, and in the process has lost her voice, and will be unable to read, so we've juggled things a little bit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14433             And, finally, our Director of Engineering, Don Elvidge.  He's been with us for thirteen years.  He is the former Director of Engineering for the Pelmorex and has been an integral part of our Company.  He's been with us through several studio upgrades, equipment changes, transmitter site upgrades, and he flipped our existing licenses, both of them, from AM to FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14434             Together, the four of us have over 85 years with our company, and collectively, over 110 years in Canadian broadcasting.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14435             I would like to thank the Commission for considering our application for a new FM license for the city of Sudbury.  We are very pleased to be here today to further explain why we believe our proposal will not only be successful, but will fill a major void for radio listeners in the Sudbury area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14436             As a company, this is our first appearance before the Commission.  Connelly Communications currently owns and operates two radio stations in northern Ontario.  CJTT FM serves the area of Témiscamingue Shores out of New Liskeard with 10,000 watts at 104.5 FM.  And an hour north, CJKL FM serves the people in Kirkland Lake with 23,000 watts at 101.5 FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14437             As a company, we are extremely proud of the impact our radio stations have in the day to day lives of our listeners.  We are directly involved in the communities we serve; we are part of every fund raising event.  We organize and host everything from Home & Trade shows, to Citizen of the Year awards, to Carnival Queen pageants.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14438             And we're most proud of our ongoing efforts for the less fortunate.  Our company raises over $100,000 annually for needy kids in our listening area, all of which is spent locally.  And the majority of which is spent on new clothing for elementary school aged children.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14439             We have 25 full time employees with an average time of more than ten years with our company.  We operate stand alone, independent radio stations that share engineering and accounting services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14440             The success of our radio stations is directly related to the commitment of our staff and our company to be local, and to be a part of our listener's lives.  We sound like major market radio stations in small communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14441             If successful in our application, we will take pride in what we broadcast, and we will quickly become a part of the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14442             If successful in our application, we plan on introducing the best of what we do on and off the air to the people of Sudbury.  Gail ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14443             MS MOORE:  The City of Greater Sudbury is northern Ontario's largest city with almost 158,000 residents.  Sudbury was one of the few communities in northern Ontario to see an increase in population in the most recent census.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14444             As the largest city in northern Ontario, Sudbury is the hub for retail, health care, mining, education, technology, and government in the north.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14445             Sudbury continues to grow.  Annual retail sales in the city are approaching 2.5 billion dollars.  With the growth in retail sales, advertising budgets have increased as well.  Local and national radio advertising in the market is now ten million dollars annually.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14446             Sudbury is presently serviced by two Christian music stations, CBC, a French language commercial FM station, and four English language commercial radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14447             There are enough advertising dollars to support at least one new radio station.  We believe that our plan to bring to the people of Sudbury a new, hot adult contemporary FM service will be supported by the business community and radio listeners in the area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14448             If successful in our application, we will offer listeners a fresh sound, with a musical format that is not being offered in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14449             We will introduce a fresh news voice for the city, bringing additional diversity to the market.  We will also become a vital part of the community.  Don?


LISTNUM 1 \l 14450             MR. ELVIDGE:  Thank you, Gail.  In budgeting for our proposed new FM service, we used our existing operations as a guideline.  These stations operate successfully, and profitably.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14451             Our Sudbury on air staff would include ten announcers.  Six of these positions will be full time and four will be part time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14452             The three main daytime announcers will share other programming responsibilities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14453             There will be two full time news people, including the News Director.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14454             The part‑time staff will also be a vital part of the on‑air sound.  They will work weekends, evenings, and provide community coverage of special events.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14455             We will also offer broadcasting students the opportunity to perform placements within our Company.  The station will be programmed locally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14456             We will be creating a music play list, and a daily music log specifically for the people of Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14457             In addition, we will have six full time office and sales staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14458             We understand that we will be entering a competitive market, not only for the advertising dollars and listeners, but for staff as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14459             Our company is confident that we can successfully attract qualified staff, and maintain those people, once they become a part of our family.  Rob.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14460             MR. CONNOLLY:  Thanks, Don.  Our proposed new FM service will target listeners ages 25 to 44 with the median age of our listener being 35 years of age.  Including 61% females, and 39% males.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14461             We project that we will initially be ranked fourth in the market, with a twelve share in the first year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14462             In addition, our hot AC format, combined with our commitment to local news and community coverage, will attract listeners under the age of 25 and over the age of 44.  It will be a station for all ages.  It will be a station for everyone in the Sudbury area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14463             We estimate up to 50% of the hours tuned will be new hours tuned, based on the introduction of a proposed format that is presently not available in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14464             This is a format we are familiar with and that we work successfully with in our current operations.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14465             Many of the artists we will play are presently receiving little or no air play in the market, and many of these artists are among Canada's best selling artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14466             We will program a mix of recurrent hits in gold, but the majority of the music will be current hits from hot AC chart.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14467             As part of our commitment to the development of Canadian talent, we pledge to the Commission that not less than one‑third of our Canadian music will be performed by emerging Canadian artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14468             We are also committed to having northern Ontario artists on our play lists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14469             On our current stations, we have songs in rotation by Sudbury's Johnny Williams, North Bay's Jennifer Plummer, Kirkland Lake's Jeff Danchuk, and New Liskeard's Manner Brothers, just to name a few.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14470             We will continue our long tradition of not only featuring northern Ontario artists, but actually play‑listing their music into regular rotation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14471             As part of our commitment to the development of Canadian talent, we are proposing to introduce several on‑air features that will promote, not only Canadian artists, but emerging artists as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14472             We will develop, produce, and broadcast a weekly two‑hour Canadian countdown that will include artist interviews, bios, industry news, and concert information.  This program will promote new Canadian music and Canadian and emerging Canadian artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14473             Each year, we will produce and host no less than six one‑hour in‑studio performances featuring Canadian artists talking about their new releases, and performing new material live from our studios or from a live location in the city of Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14474             We are an integral part of all live concerts within our existing markets, and we will commit to doing the same in the Sudbury market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14475             We propose to offer up to 200 announcements each month for the purpose of promoting festivals and concerts featuring Canadian artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14476             We will help promote emerging Canadian artists, and local talent through local club listings that will air 20 times weekly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14477             And we will introduce a daily Canadian artist spotlight, that will air during daytime hours, and will feature new music from the artist, tour information, plus background and biography details as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14478             We estimate that the value of all the air time and staff hours to develop, produce, and broadcast these programs and features will be over two million dollars over the first seven years of this license.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14479             Those are some of the indirect contributions to develop Canadian talent on the air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14480             In addition, we have made a commitment to contribute over a hundred thousand dollars in direct spending for Canadian content development.  Gail.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14481             MS MOORE:  Following the changes to the Canadian Content Development Policy, we confirmed to the Commission that we would contribute $14,500 annually above and beyond our basic annual contributions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14482             As part of our cash commitment, we will donate $9,000 annually to factor to further develop the independent Canadian recording industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14483             We will purchase $4,000 worth of new music instruments each year for elementary and secondary schools in the Sudbury area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14484             We will consult with the School Boards in Sudbury to determine the greatest need before purchasing these instruments.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14485             In addition, we have committed to awarding three $500 bursaries each year to students from the Sudbury area who are enrolling in an established music course.  Preference will be given to students enrolling in the music program at Huntington  University, located on the Laurentian University campus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14486             Our senior staff will select recipients based on financial need and academic achievement.  Rob.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14487             MR. CONNELLY:  We understand that our cash contributions are smaller than some of the other applications before the Commission, but when developing our business plan, we seriously considered what we, as a small northern Ontario company thought we would be able to contribute without it having a negative impact on our proposed operations in Sudbury, and our current stations in New Liskeard and Kirkland Lake.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14488             We could never win a Canadian talent development cash bidding competition with large Corporations, so we are hoping that the merit of our application from a broadcasting standpoint will make up for any shortfalls in this area.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14489             Having said that, we feel that contributing over $100,000 in direct spending to the development of Canadian content will have a positive impact on the Canadian Music Industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14490             When combined with our proposal to spotlight and promote Canadian artists, and emerging Canadian artists with all of our on‑air programming, we consider our commitment to the development of Canadian talent very strong.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14491             Our proposed business plan is sound.  We used our twenty plus years experience operating radio stations in northern Ontario to develop a budget that we feel will work in a market the size of Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14492             We estimate that 45% of our revenue will come from new radio advertisers.  Our existing sales strategy is to facilitate any small advertisers in our market, and we do a very good job of getting small clients on the air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14493             If we're successful with our Sudbury application, we will do the same in the Sudbury market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14494             After reviewing the advertising rates in the market, we used our existing rate card to develop the proposed rate card that we included in our original application to the Commission.  Gail.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14495             MS MOORE:  We hired David Oaks of Oaks Research to analyze the results of two different studies we conducted in Sudbury.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14496             Firstly, we contracted marketing consultant Eric Clarke to conduct a study of radio listeners in the market to ensure our proposed format was not only going to fill a void, but would be a popular choice for listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14497             This is the format we know as a company.  We work with it in both of our existing markets.  For our company to consider opening a radio station in a different market with a format we were unfamiliar with, was not a consideration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14498             We wanted to test the market and find out if Sudbury wanted the format we are proposing.  If we felt that the support was not sufficient, we would not have submitted an application, and we would not be before you today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14499             Mr. Clarke interviewed 203 Sudbury residents over the age of 12.  The interviews were done in person and in several different locations within the city over a three day period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14500             Over half of these interviews were with potential listeners in our target group, between 25 and 44 years of age.  Ninety per cent of the people we interviewed were between 18 and 55.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14501             We ensured that the interviews were conducted with an equal mix of females and males.  The results of that survey speak for themselves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14502             Seventy‑nine per cent of the people surveyed told us they were likely or somewhat likely to listen to our radio station.  Don.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14503             MR. ELVIDGE:  Thank you Gail.  In addition, we sent our most senior Sales Representative to interview Sudbury business owners and managers to determine the amount of advertising we would be able to attract with our proposed station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14504             Having our own sales staff member conduct the survey provided potential customers the opportunity to ask specific questions about our company and our proposed format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14505             Once again, the results of this survey were very positive.  We interviewed 97 potential advertisers from different sizes of businesses in various retail and service industries in the greater Sudbury area over the course of a week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14506             Sixty‑eight per cent of the decision makers we interviewed said they were likely or somewhat likely to advertise on our proposed new radio station.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14507             The results of our survey proved to us that our proposed ‑‑ proposal to offer a hot adult contemporary FM service to the radio listeners in Sudbury would be popular with listeners and would be supported by the business community of Sudbury.  Rob.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14508             MR. CONNELLY:  If the Commission awards our company a license to operate a new radio service for the people of Sudbury, we will be committed to everything we have included in our application and in our presentation before you today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14509             We will fulfil all of our commitments we are proposing as part of our application not only to the development of Canadian talent, but to the contributions to the community, support of local charities, commitment to live and local broadcasting, and the promise to provide over 18 hours of spoken word content weekly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14510             Eleven hours of our spoken word commitment will be local news, local sports, weather and community information.  The remainder of which will be national news and sports from Broadcast News, national features, entertainment features, and spotlights on artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14511             We are committing to 24 local news updates each weekday, and 20 more on the weekend, for a weekly total of 140 local newscasts per week.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14512             Our local sports coverage will include 145 local sports updates each week and another 74 sports boosters each week to promote local sports schedules and registration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14513             We have aired sports boosters in our present markets for more than 20 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14514             In addition, our community events coverage will include hourly community event listings that will total 126 occasions weekly.  We will provide news coverage and special event reports for community events in the Sudbury area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14515             We respectfully ask the Commission to consider the track record of our company, and our commitment to broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14516             Connelly Communications presently operates two successful radio stations in northern Ontario, and we are ready for the challenge of adding a larger market to our stable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14517             We are a northern Ontario company, and we are committed to serve the communities we broadcast to.  We have the experience in northern Ontario to make this work and we are financially strong.  And we have an excellent business plan in place that will work regardless of what competition there is in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14518             What we are promising before you today is exactly the way we will operate the station in Sudbury.  There will be no surprises.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14519             We will build the station's listening audience, advertising revenues and relationships with the community based on our company's commitment to excellence.  If we are successful with our application before you, the people of Sudbury will be the real winners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14520             We thank you for the opportunity to present our proposal and promise you that if we are given the opportunity to broadcast in the Sudbury market, we will make the Commission proud.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14521             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14522             At this time we will answer any questions that you may have, if indeed you have any for us.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 14523             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, you can be guaranteed that we do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14524             Vice Chairman French, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14525             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Thank you, Mr. Connelly and other Connelly's, and Mr. Elvidge.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14526             Your target audience is 25 to 44, 61 percent female, median age of 35.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14527             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14528             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I would like to begin by trying to match the target audience with the format, understand the format properly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14529             You are going to mix ‑‑ I think these are your words, if they are not right, you correct them ‑‑ Golden Hits with Hot AC, with a predominance of Hot AC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14530             MR. CONNELLY:  Gold and Recurrents yes, the Gold being from a mix of '80s, '90s and Gold from 2000, and the Recurrents being music from the last 18 months, two years.  The Gold will be predominantly in the past 8 to 10 years, but there still is some '80s music that can work in this format.  So we wanted to include that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14531             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14532             If I said 65 percent Recurrents?  Is that what you call them, "Recurrents" and "Currents"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14533             MR. CONNELLY:  "Recurrents" meaning musical that is now off the charts but more recently.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14534             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:.  The last 15 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14535             MR. CONNELLY:  So six months back to two years back, say.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14536             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Last 18 months, last two years, okay.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14537             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.  So our strategy at this point is be 60 percent current and the other 40 percent would be a mix of Recurrents and Gold, roughly about the same.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14538             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14539             I hope I have passed the staff's test of clarifying your format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14540             MR. CONNELLY:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14541             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Because when it goes after the '60s and '70s I kind of get lost anyway.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14542             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14543             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  The relationship, then, between this format and your target audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14544             Could you address that, please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14545             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.  We looked up to Hot AC format which on a national average from BBM and our national rep house, from what they have told us, the audience for Hot AC format traditionally goes a little bit higher in age.  Our Hot AC format is more driven to include a more specific audience of 25 to 44 in that a lot of the lighter Hot AC music and a lot of the heavier edge in the music is not there.  It is replaced with Recurrents in the Gold I spoke of earlier.  So it kind of skews a little bit tighter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14546             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  So just let me try to summarize.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14547             It is a somewhat softer Hot AC format ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14548             MR. CONNELLY:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14549             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  No.  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14550             MR. CONNELLY:  Sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14551             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Run it by me again then?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14552             MR. CONNELLY:  No, it's right in the middle.  It is in the middle of a ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14553             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  It is in the middle of the ‑‑ is "Hot AC" the right word?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14554             MR. CONNELLY:  It is.  It is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14555             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  It is in the middle of the Hot AC, which is slightly younger and slightly more female.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14556             Is that basically it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14557             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.  It skews younger than Adult Contemporary and it includes a lot of music from the ‑‑ well obviously the Hot AC chart, but the Hot AC chart, as Mr. Maheu from Newcap was referring to earlier, there is spillage from all the charts now and the Hot AC ‑‑ I know in our markets that we presently work with this format we are pretty much playing almost the entire Hot AC chart from BDS in our regular rotation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14558             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  If I was less sympathetic to the need for you to carefully modulate your format in order to address an audience ‑‑ you and every other broadcaster ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14559             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14560             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I would suggest that the utility of the vocabulary you are now using to address the problem is so permeable and so subject to change that, you know, it is an extremely difficult conversation to have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14561             MR. CONNELLY:  It is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14562             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  The fact remains it is all bleeding one bit into another, isn't it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14563             MR. CONNELLY:  It is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14564             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  In any event, I have been mandated to clarify this with you and you are doing a hell of a job so let's try to continue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14565             MR. CONNELLY:  Absolutely.  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 14566             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  You are not compelled to take seriously the diagnosis or the analysis of other applicants into the marketplace, but your format seems to a degree, or may conceivably be overlapping ‑‑ well, with the existing CHNO, not to speak of the other applicants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14567             Is that a reasonable question and, if so, what would your response be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14568             MR. CONNELLY:  The existing CHNO?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14569             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14570             MR. CONNELLY:  In that CHNO, is that Big Daddy?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14571             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14572             MR. CONNELLY:  All right.  Big Daddy's format is Classic Hits, and in hearing what they have done ‑‑ and I have heard it quite often ‑‑ with their format, the amount of music that they play on that station that is current is almost non‑existent.  It is all Classic Hits, which would be a very small part of our format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14573             Even with the use of, as I called it, Recurrent music from six months back to two years back, it is minimal if even noticeable on Big Daddy.  So the amount of music I think that would be on both of our playlists from Big Daddy would be probably less than 10 to 15 percent I would guess.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14574             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  So you don't see yourself directly challenging an incumbent in this marketplace?


LISTNUM 1 \l 14575             MR. CONNELLY:  You know, we looked at that very closely to find out ‑‑ you know, when we were trying to find out where our listeners were going to come from.  Where they actually came from was a bit of a ‑‑ where they were actually from the market research we did and the feedback that we got back, we were actually a bit surprised at the fact that some of the radio stations in the market at this time that we thought maybe we were going to pull a little bit more from, it is not in fact the case.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14576             We thought that we would hurt Easy Rock, one of the Rogers stations in the market, the most, and actually from the existing three FMs in there we had the least impact on them in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14577             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I'm sure you are going to tell me that it is strictly marginal in all cases.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14578             MR. CONNELLY:  Absolutely, Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14579             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I don't know how I knew that.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 14580             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  All right.  I think we have kind of covered that, at least to my ability.  Surely not to your ability to answer, but to my ability to ask the questions intelligently.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14581             You said that you are going to voicetrack 26 hours out of 126 hours per week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14582             Is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14583             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14584             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Will that voicetracking be produced by folks in your new station or your existing employees or will you acquire it from outside?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14585             MR. CONNELLY:  It will be 100 percent produced in Sudbury by the staff working at the new undertaking.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14586             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Could we talk a bit about spoken word?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14587             You are going to broadcast ‑‑ I think I have this right ‑‑ 18 to 19 hours of spoken word ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14588             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14589             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  ‑‑ of which 10 to 11 will be news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14590             Is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14591             MR. CONNELLY:  In my opening remarks I ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14592             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  To which I didn't have access when I was writing these questions.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14593             MR. CONNELLY:  All right.  I believe I said 11 hours of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14594             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  You said 10.4 in writing apparently and now you have said 11.  It is not a big issue.  We are talking about orders of magnitude, but we want to be clear once we get those orders of magnitude clear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14595             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.  Eleven hours of the spoken word is a combination of local news, local sports, weather and the community event programming that we have in there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14596             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Yes.  And you are going to engage, to produce that material, a full‑time news director, a full‑time reporter/announcer, and a part‑time reporter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14597             Correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14598             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14599             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  So could you help the Commission to understand how, with two and a half person years you are going to be able to produce that quantity of news and sports in that market?


LISTNUM 1 \l 14600             MR. CONNELLY:  We produce similar amounts of local news in our existing markets using the exact same format, with the exception of we only have two people in each of our markets.  So in the two stations we have, we have a total four news reporters, readers, and the two people at each station are fully capable of generating the amount of news that we are talking about doing and broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14601             They are only on the air for a few minutes an hour, so to speak, and the rest of the time they spend their time generating local news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14602             One of the points I would like to make is that we are ‑‑ as you probably saw, we are planning on being a Broadcast News affiliate, as we are with our existing stations, and what we do is, we combine Broadcast News with our local news and it works wonderfully.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14603             What we have been able to accomplish is to take our news people and have them focus entirely on generating local news in the markets that they work in and not have to ever worry about national or international news, because Broadcast News do a wonderful job of delivering that and we could never ‑‑ we could never do what they do, or do it better, so we focus entirely on local news with our news staff.  That way we have news on‑the‑air 24 hours a day and when anything happens that is of a large magnitude nationally or internationally, we have big coverage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14604             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  In your existing operation, do you man the station overnight?


LISTNUM 1 \l 14605             MR. CONNELLY:  We do not.  We are voicetracked overnight, but the way our automation is set up, if there are any problems it is supposed to wake Don up first, but I think it usually wakes me up first in the markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14606             But no, we do not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14607             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  You would expect to do the same thing in Sudbury?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14608             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.  We have run into very few problems.  We have set up our relationships with the local police and emergency units, that if they need to get hold of us they have all of our contact information.  It happens a few times a year and I am usually the first guy on the list to call so that I can wake up whoever needs to be woken up.  Sometimes it's just me, but that's the way it works.  It starts at the top.  I usually give them my contact number first.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14609             We have run into it a few times a year and we also know that if there is anything happening that we do need to have the station staffed we are there.  It happens a couple of times a ‑‑ maybe not a couple of times a year, but generally once a year we have some kind of an emergency in one of the communities that we serve that our staff is in there overnight and whatnot.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14610             The newsroom never sleeps they tell me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14611             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  You say that the majority of the news segments you are going to run will be three minutes in length, some will be six and some will be nine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14612             Could you just explain to us how that works?  How do you schedule the three, the six and the nine in the course of a day, or what are your plans in that regard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14613             MR. CONNELLY:  The three, the six and the nine, I think perhaps what you are alluding to is our combination of three minutes of national and international news from Broadcast News, which would be followed by three minutes of local news, which would be produced and done by our news reporter immediately tagged on to the end of the international and national newscast.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14614             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  So the normal news slot is six minutes?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14615             MR. CONNELLY:  Let me just get our exact news breakdown here.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14616             The way we are planning on doing it in Sudbury is, in the main hours of drive ‑‑ you can see on page 16 of the appendices to our application with the spoken word weekday breakdown ‑‑ in morning drive at 6:00, 7:00 and 8:00 a.m. we are airing the full three‑minute update from Broadcast News, which is followed by three minutes of local news, which is followed by a minute of national sports combined with 90 seconds of local sports and the weather forecast, and that makes a nine minute major news, sports, weather package.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14617             That is done during drive at 6:00, at 7:00, at 8:00 a.m., and then again at noon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14618             The other updates, we will use the 60‑second national update from Broadcast News and combine that with a 60‑second local newscast, which will probably include, as we do ‑‑ this is what we do now, it includes two to three local news stores and if there is anything urgent, sometimes if there is something major, it might only include that one breaking story if something was huge.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14619             But this is the minimum amount of commitment that we are making.  Sometimes the local news goes longer when there is something major happening locally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14620             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  All right.  So that is a nice way of saying you had already answered my question and I appreciate it.


‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 14621             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  You say that you wish to commit 160 hours of local programming a week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14622             The usual baseline, I am informed, by which the Commission assesses local programming is 126 hours, omitting midnight to 6:00 a.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14623             MR. CONNELLY:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14624             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Are you able to revise your local programming plans to inform us as to how many of the 160 hours are to be between 6:00 a.m. and midnight?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14625             MR. CONNELLY:  The local programming end of it, a weekday is ‑‑ if you take out midnight to 6:00 ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14626             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14627             MR. CONNELLY:  ‑‑ there are ‑‑ how many hours are we ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14628             Like are you talking about separating voicetracking hours or are you separating local programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14629             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I am looking at local programming really.  I mean, we can forget the 126 and the 160.  How many hours of local programming a week and how much of it is between midnight and 6:00?


LISTNUM 1 \l 14630             None of it is between midnight and 6:00 because you are voicetracking.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14631             MR. CONNELLY:  But our voicetracking ‑‑ for example ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14632             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  You are going to consider it local because you are doing it locally?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14633             MR. CONNELLY:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14634             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  All right.  That's the question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14635             MR. CONNELLY:  Our evening voicetracking which we have scheduled to go beginning at 9:00 p.m., that will be done by the evening person and it will be done each night and it will be current and when something is going on they will ‑‑ we will make plans to be on live until whatever we need to be on, midnight, 1 o'clock.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14636             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I am assuming that you are going to share engineering and accounting and other back office operations between your current operations and a Sudbury station?


LISTNUM 1 \l 14637             MR. CONNELLY:  Our plan at this point is, the only synergies that would be shared are the engineering to a degree, as much as we know it will be possible.  We may need to make a few modifications to the way we do something, to have someone part‑time available in either ‑‑ whichever way we take our engineering.  Whichever part we move our engineering to, the other area would need someone part‑time perhaps available on an emergency basis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14638             But from a standpoint of, yes, accounting and engineering at this point, are the only things we have even looked at.  There are no other synergies that we can share between the stations, other than the exchange of voices to record commercials.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14639             We do that with our present operations in New Liskeard and Kirkland Lake.  As part of their daily production run, an announcer may do five commercials and one of them may be for the other market.  We will plan to do the same with Sudbury.  That way, instead of having however many announcers at your disposal, five or six announcers, we have 18 or 20 of them available, so we have a lot of different voices on the air for commercials.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14640             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  No planned programming synergies except announcers for ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14641             MR. CONNELLY:  For commercials.  None.  Absolutely none.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14642             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14643             Do we have a copy of the research that Mr. Clark did with Oaks?


LISTNUM 1 \l 14644             MR. CONNELLY:  We included most of the breakdown of his in our ‑‑ there is, I don't know, about half a dozen pages in our attachment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14645             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  It comes from that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14646             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14647             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Well, the staff will ask you if they want a formal copy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14648             MR. CONNELLY:  All right.  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14649             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  But basically you are saying the results are in the documentation, just not labelled as such?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14650             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14651             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Do you have direct radio competition in your current markets?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14652             MR. CONNELLY:  Not in either of the markets we are in.  Not specifically located in the markets that we are in, but there are ‑‑ there is competition from ‑‑ for example, in Kirkland Lake there is a licence in Englehart and we serve Englehart and sell in Englehart as part of our operation there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14653             So yes, I guess the answer is yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14654             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  To a degree.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14655             MR. CONNELLY:  To a degree, yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14656             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  But not quite this kind of intensity you would anticipate in Sudbury?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14657             MR. CONNELLY:  No.  No, this will be a little ‑‑ we are significantly more intense.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14658             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Your audience projections are fairly aggressive, are they not?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14659             Is it 12 share?  In the first year of operations that is a pretty aggressive projection.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14660             Could you tell us why you are so confident?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14661             MR. CONNELLY:  We are confident because based on what we have done on the air very successfully for an extremely long period of time.  I know that we would never ‑‑ I would never get in the Sudbury market if I wasn't going to go at it full‑bore, so to speak.  Our intention when we first looked at the opening in the market might have changed somewhat when we got the results of the market survey we did.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14662             We received a wonderful response from the people in Sudbury and from the business community as well.  We didn't include the business community in the actual listener response that we had, but it's radio.  Everyone has their opinion.  And more often than not, all of the business people we spoke with as well had their comments on our format and our proposed format and we knew it was going to be received very positively, if indeed we are capable of doing it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14663             MS MOORE:  Do you want me to add to that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14664             MR. CONNELLY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14665             MS MOORE:  I can add to that by saying that what we do in our communities is that we build relationships with our public, and we are in markets right now where we don't just address the people who live in our immediate city or towns.  Our markets are such that we have outlying areas that are just as important as our main centre of commerce in terms of speaking to that public in those outlying communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14666             In Sudbury, that would be Capreol, Chelmsford, Azilda, Valley East, Val Caron and Hanmer.  They have lots of outlying areas and we are going to make them a part of our community in such a way that they will feel like they have a relationship with us.  That is something that we feel is missing right now in that market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14667             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Would you care to comment on Newcap's claim that the unserved market is not in fact the demographic market you are looking at but a younger demographic?


LISTNUM 1 \l 14668             There is no obligation to do so.  It's out of interest.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14669             MR. CONNELLY:  That's not what our survey indicates.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14670             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Fair enough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14671             You have suggested that your advertising rates will be lower than those of the incumbent's services, and that is part of your unique selling proposition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14672             What kind of a differential are you talking about and how will your competitors react?  How do you forecast your competitors will react to that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14673             MR. CONNELLY:  Well, we are not entirely certain, obviously, how the competitors are going to react because we are not in the market and we have never had to compete against Rogers or Newcap.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14674             I would anticipate that we might bring down the rates in the market a little bit, as I know that when the local sales agreement was terminated it may have changed things in the Sudbury market as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14675             From the standpoint of ‑‑ I can't speak for Rogers or Newcap, but what would happen in the market with the rates, I'm not entirely certain.  If there were more than one new radio station in the market, it might even have a larger impact obviously on the rates.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14676             But at this point I can't really forecast what would happen with Rogers' rates or Newcap's rates.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14677             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  A final question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14678             Could you summarize, share with us, why you expect that your impact on the incumbents will be minimal when in fact notwithstanding the format differences, the demographic that you are focusing on is not that distant as a demographic from the target market, the core audience of at least one or two of the incumbents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14679             So whether or not the formats are different, the demographic is the same and there are only so many hours of tuning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14680             I just want to give you one more chance to make clear in our minds why you are convinced that your impact on the incumbents will be minimal.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14681             MR. CONNELLY:  Our impact on the incumbents will be minimal.  Financially, the market of Sudbury average sales have increased over the past three years over 8 percent.  If that trend continues, the annual increase in local radio sales in the market is far greater than what we are forecasting.  So that alone leaves us room.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14682             In addition, our projections are that 45 percent of our local sales will be new advertisers to radio.  These are advertisers that are not using radio in the Sudbury market because they are smaller businesses and it is not cost prohibitive for them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14683             But this is what we do.  We have done this for a very long time in our markets.  We have dealt with and built our business on dealing with small business.  We do it very well and a good part, if not the majority, of the business that we do in our existing markets is with small business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14684             We plan on doing that in Sudbury.  A lot of them are not using radio right now.  With the introduction of our Hot AC format into the market and the rate card that we are going to go in with, our intention is that we are specifically going to target smaller business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14685             We know we are going to get some advertising dollars from the existing radio budgets.  I think we are projecting 15 percent of our total local sales will be taken from existing advertising in radio.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14686             From that standpoint, the profit margins of the incumbents in the market at this point are greater than the national average.  They are large corporations and I know that they are anticipating another licence in the market, and they are anticipating it because the market can sustain it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14687             There is $10 million in radio sales in the market, and there are two companies getting it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14688             There is not an independent news voice in the market.  There are two companies that own a lot of radio stations who are providing news to the people of Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14689             In addition to that, the other one is the public broadcaster.  From our standpoint, we know we are going to add diversity to the market.  It's a format that is missing in the market.  We work with it.  We know we can do it.  It's a format we have worked with for a very long time and we will tweak and tune it to the point where we know it is working in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14690             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Thank you very much, Madam Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14691             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑Chairman Arpin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14692             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14693             I have a few questions.  One is based on your oral presentation.  It is more or less a matter of clarification.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14694             MR. CONNELLY:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14695             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  On your page 4 ‑‑ and it is the third paragraph that Mr. Elvidge read ‑‑ there are two sentences but I'm asking myself if they are tied together.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14696             The sentence reads this way:

"The three main daytime announcers will share other programming responsibilities."

LISTNUM 1 \l 14697             Then there is a dot there.  Then it goes on to say:

"There will be two fulltime news people, including the news director."

LISTNUM 1 \l 14698             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14699             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Are they the same person?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14700             MR. CONNELLY:  I will try to make it perfectly clear.  There will be two news people, one of which will be a news director and the other will be a news reporter and announcer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14701             So there are two news people, and the other four are on‑air announcers, DJs, if you will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14702             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I'm more confused.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14703             MR. CONNELLY:  I see.  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14704             Yes, there are three main daytime announcers that we talked about, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14705             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14706             MR. CONNELLY:  But we also said six of these positions will be fulltime and four will be part‑time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14707             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14708             MR. CONNELLY:  I see what you are saying, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14709             The clarification is that I think what I was trying to do in that paragraph when we were putting this together was to emphasize that the three announcers during the day are going to be involved in other aspects of programming in the radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14710             Our morning man might have one responsibility, the mid day person would have another and the afternoon person would have another.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14711             In addition to that, we will have an evening swing announcer and we will have two news people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14712             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And your news people will be different people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14713             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14714             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  They are not part of those ten announcers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14715             MR. CONNELLY:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14716             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  They are over and above.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14717             The news director will be the person going on‑air?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14718             MR. CONNELLY:  The news director will also be on‑air.  We work that way in both of our markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14719             In one of them the news director does the morning show and in the other one the news director does afternoons.  So it is dependent on the news director and who we hire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14720             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And who is the reporter?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14721             MR. CONNELLY:  The reporter is ‑‑ the news director also acts as the reporter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14722             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I see.  So if there is a press conference that you showed me there, generally speaking it is the news director ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14723             MR. CONNELLY:  It could be either.  They are both news reporters; so depending on whose shift it is on.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14724             But in all likelihood, as it stands in our markets now, the news directors are responsible for covering the main events live, so to speak.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14725             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  You didn't have any discussion regarding emerging artists.  It seems to me that the reply that you provided the Commission in your January 9th letter really covers the definition of emerging artist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14726             For a matter of clarification, you seem to have used the ‑‑ well, there is the reference to Media Base and MBDS, and you seem to have used airplay.  So you have used the CAB definition for the purpose of this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14727             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14728             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Do you feel that this definition really meets the need of the format that you are proposing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14729             MR. CONNELLY:  Do I feel ‑‑ sorry, could you repeat the question?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14730             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  What I'm asking you is obviously throughout the radio review, as I said earlier, we were submitted nine different definitions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14731             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.  Would you like a tenth?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14732             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Maybe.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 14733             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Maybe that's going to be the definition, the definite definition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14734             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14735             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  We were submitted with nine different definitions throughout that process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14736             MR. CONNELLY:  I understand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14737             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  In the CAB brief that they submitted for this specific hearing, they are saying that no one size fits all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14738             So my question to you is:  While you have chosen the CAB definition, does that definition really fit the format that you have applied for?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14739             MR. CONNELLY:  In all likelihood, I guess we are not going to know until we get into it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14740             But from a standpoint of what I read from the CAB's definition of emerging Canadian talent, it fits our format very well and we don't think we would have any problem whatsoever continuing to have new faces replacing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14741             So who we are talking about as emerging talent today and who we are talking about as emerging talent perhaps when this radio stations gets on the air could be completely different.  The ones I probably used in our application, a few of them are no longer emerging artists, so to speak.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14742             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  In your reply or in your submission you said that a third of your Canadian music will be made up of emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14743             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14744             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Are you ready to accept a condition of licence, if the Commission was to deem to make a condition of licence that you have a third of your Canadian content be made up of emerging artists?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14745             MR. CONNELLY:  We would be pleased to accept that as a condition of licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14746             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And finally, you have studied the market of Sudbury fairly closely.  How many new stations do you think that market could support?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14747             And if it is more than one, which one of the applicants, either way, do you think will not compete with you or we should not license that one because that really will put your business plan totally apart?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14748             MR. CONNELLY:  Well, the politically correct answer to your question is I believe there should be six new licences added to the market.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 14749             MR. CONNELLY:  When we did our initial projections, we did them with the addition of one new station.  But as I mentioned, when you look at the increase in local sales annually, it can definitely support more than one new licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14750             Having two new licences in the market I don't think would ‑‑ I think they both could survive and that it would not have an impact on the existing licences in the market, depending on the formats and whatnot.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14751             The fact of the matter is when I look at if there were two licences granted and ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14752             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I take for granted that you are one of those.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14753             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.  And I was just about to say if we were fortunate enough for the Commission to grant us a licence and there was a second licence being introduced into the market, to say which one would have the most impact on us from a format standpoint is very difficult.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14754             Three of the formats are completely different.  The Country format that Mr. Larch is proposing goes after a completely different audience.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14755             Newcap's application, when I first saw it, I thought that there was a lot of similarities in the music programming, but as we got deeper into it and read their application, they are targeting a much younger audience.  Several times the 12‑to‑18 demographic was mentioned today, and there is no chance.  We may get some 12‑to‑18 year olds listening to our station, but we would definitely not in any way be targeting people that young.  From an advertising standpoint, we know we would be unable to make that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14756             Having said that, without question ‑‑ and the answer has to be the same for all of us ‑‑ Newcap is the one that would be most difficult to compete against in the market, because they will synergies automatically that are in place.  They are a large corporation with 70‑some‑odd stations in the country, and they can walk in there and set that up in a moment's notice and put a lot of money into it that obviously the other applicants, including ourselves, would not be capable of doing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14757             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Those were my questions.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14758             MR. CONNELLY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14759             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14760             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner del Val.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14761             Commissioner Cram.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14762             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14763             I would like to take you to page 5 of your presentation today and the third paragraph.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14764             You say you estimate up to 50 percent of the hours tuned will be to new hours tuned.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14765             I think you were saying you are estimating a share of 12.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14766             MR. CONNELLY:  Twelve in the first year, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14767             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Did Mr. Oakes help you with that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14768             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes, that is way beyond anything I'm capable of putting together.  From a listening audience standpoint and a ratings standpoint, obviously for the business that we do, we knew we had to hire someone to analyze everything and to help us position ourselves in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14769             David Oakes of Oakes Research did that for us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14770             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  He shows his calculations and that he has made a reduction for this, because he normally does 50 percent.  He divides by the demand or that sort of thing.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14771             MR. CONNELLY:  He was talking mathematician talk that was well beyond grade 13 functions, calculus and algebra that I took.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14772             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I never took calculus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14773             If you have not filed his study or his report, could you file that with us?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14774             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.  What we had Mr. Oakes do was analyze our stuff and what he actually did was he completed that part of the application for us, based on the market research that we did, based on the information available from the City of Sudbury, based on the information available from the Commission regarding sales and advertising sales, and also based on our intention in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14775             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  If you could just file that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14776             MR. CONNELLY:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14777             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Then I was struck by, at page 8, you talking about the fact that your cash contributions are smaller ‑‑ "We seriously considered that we, as a small northern Ontario company..." ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14778             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14779             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  ‑‑ and you refer to the fact that it shouldn't be a cash bidding war against the big guys.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14780             But you are coming into a market where you are going to be against the big guys ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14781             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14782             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  ‑‑ four of them, where, if you believe Newcap, one has 90 percent of the pBIT.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14783             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Two.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14784             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No, one.  Rogers have 90 percent of the ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14785             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Two stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14786             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  They have three stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14787             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Three stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14788             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yeah.  We are having this little conversation about how many stations Rogers has, and my friend, my colleague, here is unable to count.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 14789             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So you have got Rogers, that have three stations, 90 percent of the pBIT ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14790             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14791             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  ‑‑ and you have little Newcap, who has 10 percent of the pBIT.  It may take some time investing in the market and some staying power.  And I hear you when you say if you walk into that market with three Rogers and two Newcap it's even worse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14792             Could you sustain a fairly competitive atmosphere, given the size of your company?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14793             MR. CONNELLY:  Are you asking that specifically, if Newcap were to have a second station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14794             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Both.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14795             MR. CONNELLY:  Well, yes, either way.  If Newcap were to have a second station, that second station would be targeting a different demographic.  As I said, we know it may take time, but the fact of the matter is that when we launch, we want to launch 100 percent, ready to go, sounding pro and have an immediate impact on the market, so to speak.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14796             But having said that, I understand we are going to be competing against the big guy, but we are targeting much smaller businesses, who do not traditionally use radio in the Sudbury market because they cannot afford it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14797             From our standpoint, yes, we are ready, and we are willing to compete with Rogers and with Newcap in the Sudbury market.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14798             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What's your split in New Liskeard or Kirkland Lake of national to local advertising?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14799             MR. CONNELLY:  It's about 85 percent local.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14800             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And you would anticipate about the same in Sudbury?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14801             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes, we would.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14802             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Because that's the basis, essentially ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14803             MR. CONNELLY:  About that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14804             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  ‑‑ of your business plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14805             MR. CONNELLY:  Absolutely, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14806             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay, thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14807             MR. CONNELLY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14808             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14809             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Her last question ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14810             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14811             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  ‑‑ prompted me to ask you another question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14812             MR. CONNELLY:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14813             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Who is your national rep house?


LISTNUM 1 \l 14814             MR. CONNELLY:  I was wondering if this was going to come up today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14815             Our national sales representative is Canadian Broadcast Sales, CBS.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14816             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So it's the same one, then, the incumbent?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14817             MR. CONNELLY:  Actually, if I'm not mistaken, I believe that CBS represent all three Rogers stations and Big Daddy in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14818             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Exactly, the incumbents are all with CBS and you are with CBS.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14819             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.  We understand that could create a problem, and we would very delicately deal with it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14820             We are happy with CBS rep‑ing our operations in Kirkland Lake and New Liskeard, but we already know that we would probably be best served with a different rep house for the Sudbury station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14821             In speaking with other people with more than a few radio stations, I have heard on a few occasions that they deal with whichever national rep house they think can best serve them in the market that they are in, and we would have to do the same at that time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14822             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Okay.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14823             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14824             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Connelly, I just wanted to follow up on the conversation that you had with Vice‑Chairman French regarding the format, and it's only in the context of, of course, the impact you will have on the incumbents ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14825             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14826             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ and the amount of diversity, in terms of music formats that you will be bringing to the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14827             I'm looking at page 5 of your supplementary brief, and the list of artists that you have there as examples of the artist that you would play on this station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14828             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14829             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Of that sample, more or less, and knowing how you plan on programming this radio station, how much overlap, in terms of artists, do you anticipate there being between your proposed service and Newcap's service?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14830             MR. CONNELLY:  There will be ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14831             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Of Big Daddy, just be exact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14832             MR. CONNELLY:  Okay.  The overlap will be similar with all the formats, as it is now.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14833             I guess to better explain it, a station like EZ Rock, in Sudbury, they will play Christine Aguilera, however, there are certain songs by Christine Aguilera that you have a little too much bounce in the for Easy Rock.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14834             A lot of the format that we are proposing is not getting played.  A lot of the artists are not getting played because there's Classic Rock, Easy Rock, Hard Rock and a Classic Hits station, so a lot of these artists are not getting any airplay whatsoever.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14835             And if they are, they are getting limited airplay, in that perhaps on Gwen Stefani's album, for example, one of the Rogers stations might play every second or third single from it, but they do play Gwen Stefani.  But what we are saying is that we can play all of Gwen Stefani's music and all of Justin Timberlake's music, for example, with our format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14836             So there is going to be overlap, as I said.  With Big Daddy, it's going to be minimal.  It's going to be maybe 10 percent to 15 percent.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14837             I looked very closely at what EZ Rock and what Q92 were doing in the market, and we have probably the same overlap with them as we have with Big Daddy, but with different music.  So the maximum, I think, we would overlap with any station would probably be about 15 percent each ‑‑ each ‑‑ but all different, if that makes sense.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14838             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Again, because you said on page 5 ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14839             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14840             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ that the Gold will account for less than 30 percent of the station's ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14841             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14842             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ playlist, and today you said 40 percent, but adding Recurrence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14843             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14844             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So Recurrence and Gold would account for ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14845             MR. CONNELLY:  Our Gold, yes.  We are budgeting about 20 percent Gold and 20 percent Recurrence, maximum.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14846             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14847             MR. CONNELLY:  Okay?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14848             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So is it safe to assume that, therefore, the overlap with Big Daddy would be somewhere between 15 percent and 20 percent, based on what you just said?


LISTNUM 1 \l 14849             MR. CONNELLY:  No, because I think a lot of the Gold that we would play, they ‑‑ most of the Gold that we would play, they would play, Big Daddy would play, but there will be some of it, as well, that they may not play.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14850             That's why I said probably it's closer to 10 percent because a lot of the Gold that is more than two years' old, from artists like ‑‑ John Mayer's a good example, Big Daddy, I don't that they are playing any John Mayer, so to speak, but that is part of our Gold.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14851             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  As you said, the Rogers EZ Rock may however be playing John Mayer?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14852             MR. CONNELLY:  They will be playing John Mayer, guaranteed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14853             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And CJRQ may also be playing Tommy Swick or Bedouin Soundclash or Arcade Fire ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14854             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14855             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ Neverending White Lights.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14856             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes, absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14857             THE CHAIRPERSON:  They would be playing those artists, as well?


LISTNUM 1 \l 14858             MR. CONNELLY:  Q92, I doubt is playing Tommy Swick.  I would probably be surprised if they are playing Tommy Swick.  They would, I hope, be playing The Arcade Fire.  And Bedouin Soundclash, I'm not entirely certain Q92 would play Bedouins Soundclash.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14859             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14860             MR. CONNELLY:  Of the four artists you mentioned, they may be playing The Arcade Fire and they may be playing Neverending White Lights, and I'm not really sure, but I have Big Brother looking over my shoulder, so....

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 14861             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's fine.  Thank you very much, Mr. Connelly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14862             MR. CONNELLY:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14863             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Legal counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14864             MS. DIONNE:  When do you think you could file the Oaks research?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14865             MR. CONNELLY:  How long do you need?  How long do you have?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14866             MS. DIONNE:  Well, by the end of today ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14867             MR. CONNELLY:  Oh, no.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14868             MS. DIONNE:  ‑‑ or by the end of the hearing.  You don't have it with your?


LISTNUM 1 \l 14869             MR. CONNELLY:  No.  No, and we are not back home till the weekend.  By the end of next week is fine?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14870             MS. DIONNE:  Yes.  It's Easter Friday, so by next Thursday?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14871             MR. CONNELLY:  Okay, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14872             MS. DIONNE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14873             Also, in your presentation, you mentioned a study by a marketing consultant, Eric Clark?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14874             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14875             MS. DIONNE:  Could you also file this study?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14876             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14877             MS. DIONNE:  For the same day?  I assume you don't have it with your right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14878             MR. CONNELLY:  No, I do not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14879             MS. DIONNE:  Okay.  So next Thursday?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14880             MR. CONNELLY:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14881             MS. DIONNE:  The broadcast week, under our regulations, tends to be 126 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14882             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14883             MS. DIONNE:  A broadcast day is from ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14884             MR. CONNELLY:  Midnight.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14885             MS. DIONNE:  ‑‑ 6 a.m. to midnight.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14886             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14887             MS. DIONNE:  And when you add the seven days, it's 126 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14888             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14889             MS. DIONNE:  So could you confirm the level of local programming in a broadcast week?  How many hours out of the 126 hours would be local programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14890             MR. CONNELLY:  Which we are, because we are considering our voice tracking to be local programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14891             I think in a recent letter to the Commission, I said we are not planning, at this point, of carrying any syndicated programming, but in case there was programming available that matched our format, we wanted to reserve up to a maximum of 8 hours a week of syndicated programming, if necessary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14892             So our commitment would be 126, less the 8 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14893             MS. DIONNE:  Okay.  And what would be the level of spoken word programming in your broadcast week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14894             MR. CONNELLY:  The level of spoken word, I think we have it at 19 hours.  Did I say that?


LISTNUM 1 \l 14895             MS. DIONNE:  I just want to clarify that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14896             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14897             MS. DIONNE:  ‑‑ because I think we had 11 hours and 18.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14898             MR. CONNELLY:  I think I had 11 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14899             What did we say?  Yes, 18 hours, sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14900             MS. DIONNE:  Okay, 18 hours is your commitment?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14901             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes, 18 hours is our commitment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14902             MS. DIONNE:  Now Canadian content contributions ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14903             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14904             MS. DIONNE:  ‑‑ you mentioned that you would give money to the Music in Schools Initiative and that you propose to donate instruments and support Sudbury's elementary and secondary schools.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14905             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14906             MS. DIONNE:  What do you mean by "support"?  I want an answer that it would ‑‑ to fulfil the policy ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14907             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14908             MS. DIONNE:  ‑‑ the radio policy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14909             MR. CONNELLY:  We are going to be buying them instruments.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14910             MS. DIONNE:  So it's only buying instruments?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14911             MR. CONNELLY:  That's all it is, 100 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14912             MS. DIONNE:  A hundred percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14913             Could we get a letter from the school boards clarifying that it's to buy instruments?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14914             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14915             MS. DIONNE:  By the end of next week or the week after?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14916             MR. CONNELLY:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14917             MS. DIONNE:  Okay.  So by next Thursday.  For the other applicants ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14918             MR. CONNELLY:  We will try for next Thursday.  The other applicants have until when?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14919             MS. DIONNE:  For the other applicants, we have agreed to April 13th.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14920             MR. CONNELLY:  Okay.  Would that be agreeable?  Would that be acceptable?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14921             MS. DIONNE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14922             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes, okay.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14923             MS. DIONNE:  As for your music bursaries, the policy describes, as eligible initiatives, schools and educational institutions, and includes scholarships.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14924             I think that your senior staff would determine who would get the bursaries, so I don't see a third party involved.  Would you give it directly to a student or ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14925             MR. CONNELLY:  Yes, we would.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14926             No, no, we will give it to ‑‑ we will run this ‑‑ our intention is, if it's acceptable, our intention is to run it through the school boards.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14927             Our intention was to use both school boards, but one of the boards has the French end of it. So we wanted to give each of them an English student one and we wanted to give a French bursary, as well, so that would be three annually.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14928             Our only concern was we just wanted to make sure that we were able to ‑‑ a lot of the time when you are giving a bursary, they will ask you, "Do you want to know who we are giving it to ahead of time?", or what not.  But from our end we did because we wanted to give preference to the students attending school locally.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14929             But our intention is to run it through ‑‑ we will not be writing a cheque directly to the students.  We will write it to the school board, and they will present the bursaries.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14930             MS. DIONNE:  Could you confirm this by way of letter from the school boards agreeing to that, and, again, by April 13th?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14931             MR. CONNELLY:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14932             MS. DIONNE:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14933             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14934             Mr. Connelly, this is your opportunity to summarize your application and tell us why your proposed application is the best use of the frequency in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14935             MR. CONNELLY:  Well, I would like to begin by thanking the Commission for the opportunity to formally present our proposal to launch a new FM service for the City of Sudbury.  We believe our business plan is sound and that, regardless of what competition is in the market, we will be able to achieve our targets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14936             We a northern Ontario‑based company, with a long history of quality broadcasting.  As a company, we have been through many swings in the economy and we have always maintained our commitment to provide quality local programming.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14937             Our commitment to our staff has resulted in a wonderful display of loyalty from our management and employees and tremendous support from the business community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14938             If we are successful with our application to expand into the Sudbury market, we will bring our radio model to Sudbury.  And we promise to always put the listener first and to put quality on‑air programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14939             As a company, we are ready for this challenge, and I will personally ensure that our commitments to the Commission are fulfilled, if we are fortunate enough to be granted a licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14940             I thank you for your time and for your consideration of our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14941             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14942             MR. CONNELLY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14943             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That adjourns the hearing for the evening.  We will resume at 9 a.m. tomorrow morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14944             Thank you.

‑‑‑ Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1735, to resume

    on Thursday, March 29, 2007 at 0900 / L'audience

    est ajournée à 1735, pour reprendre le jeudi

    29 mars 2007 à 0900


  

 

 

 

                 REPORTERS

 

 

 

 

_____________________     _____________________

Johanne Morin             Jean Desaulniers

 

 

 

 

_____________________     _____________________

Fiona Potvin              Sharon Millett

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

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