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Prière de noter que la Loi sur les langues officielles exige que toutes publications gouvernementales soient disponibles dans les deux langues officielles.

Afin de rencontrer certaines des exigences de cette loi, les procès-verbaux du Conseil seront dorénavant bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience et la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

              TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

 

 

 

                          SUBJECT:

 

 

 

VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

 

Delta Bow Valley                      Delta Bow Valley

209 4th Avenue SE                     209, 4th Avenue SE

Calgary, Alberta                      Calgary (Alberta)

 

February 13, 2007                     Le 13 février 2007

 


 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.


               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

 

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

                 Transcript / Transcription

 

 

 

            VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

            PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Michel Arpin                      Chairperson / Président

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Barbara Cram                      Commissioner / Conseillère

Stuart Langford                   Commissioner / Conseiller

Ronald Williams                   Commissioner / Conseiller

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Jade Roy                          Secretary / Secrétaire

Peter McCallum                    Legal Counsel /

Conseiller juridique

Marie-Claude Mentor               Hearing Manager /

Gérante de l'audience

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

 

Delta Bow Valley                  Delta Bow Valley

209 4th Avenue SE                 209, 4th Avenue SE

Calgary, Alberta                  Calgary (Alberta)

 

February 13, 2007                 Le 13 février 2007

 


           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE I (Cont'd)

 

 

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

MVBC Holdings Limited                             309 / 2327

 

CanWest MediaWorks Inc.                           420 / 2928

 

 

 

PHASE II

 

 

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:

 

Crossroads Television System                      495 / 3363

 

Rogers Broadcasting Limited                       499 / 3380

 

MVBC Holdings Limited                             504 / 3404

 

 

 

PHASE III

 

 

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:

 

Joe Media Group Inc.                              545 / 3582

 

Fellowship of Christian Assemblies of Canada      551 / 3607

 

Alberta Motion Picture Industries Association     553 / 3615

 

CHUM Limited                                      562 / 3667

 

CIM Canada Media Services Inc.                    580 / 3753

 

Toronto Somali Television & Radio                 583 / 3768

 

Fresh From the Yukon Inc.                         585 / 3776

 

James Jacuta                                      589 / 3813

 

Southern Alberta Heritage Language Association    592 / 3824


           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE III (Cont'd)

 

 

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:

 

Committee on Race Relations and                   599 / 3860

  Cross Cultural Understanding

 

Ploty.com/Interwizja.tv                           615 / 3935

 

Canadian Polish Congress                          617 / 3944

 

Catholic Charities, Catholic Social Services      623 / 3986

  Sign of Hope

 

Central Alberta Women's Emergency Shelter         626 / 3995

 

Alberta Children's Hospital Foundation            627 / 4002

 

Alan Weenink                                      633 / 4030

 

Alberta Motion Picture Industries Association     638 / 4066

 

 

 

PHASE IV

 

 

REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:

 

CanWest MediaWorks Inc.                           641 / 4081

 

MVBC Holdings Limited                             650 / 4115

 

Rogers Broadcasting Limited                       655 / 4138

 

The Miracle Channel Association                   661 / 4166

 

Crossroads Television System                      672 / 4233

 

 

 


                 Calgary, Alberta / Calgary (Alberta)

‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Tuesday, February 13, 2007

    at 0830 / L'audience reprend le mardi

    13 février 2007 à 0830

LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 23192319             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.  We will resume the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12320             Ms Secretary, would you introduce the next item?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12321             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12322             We will now proceed with items 7 and 8 on the agenda, which are applications by MVBC Holdings Limited for licences to operate a multilingual ethnic television programming undertaking in Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12323             The new station in Calgary would operate on channel 38 with an average effective radiated power of 21,000 watts (maximum effective radiated power of 30,000 watts/antenna height of 170 metres).

LISTNUM 1 \l 12324             The new station in Edmonton would operate on channel 45 with an average effective radiated power of 32,000 watts (maximum effective radiated power of 50,000 watts/antenna height of 121 metres).


LISTNUM 1 \l 12325             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Bob Lee who will introduce his colleagues.  You will then have 30 minutes to make your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12326             Mr. Lee.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12327             MR. LEE:  Thank you, Chairperson and members of the Commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12328             My name is Bob Lee and I am Chair of the Board of Directors of Multivan Broadcast, operating as channel m.  In addition to my role as Chair of Multivan, I am also Chairman of Prospero International Realty and UBC Property Trust.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12329             Before we start our opening remarks, I would like to introduce the members of our panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12330             In the front row and going from your right to left are:

LISTNUM 1 \l 12331             Larisa Sembaliuk, Chair of our Advisory Council in Edmonton;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12332             Peter Gillespie, Vice‑President of Operations at channel m;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12333             Dianne Collins, our News Director;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12334             John Michel, Vice‑President of Program Production and Promotion;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12335             Art Reitmayer, our President and CEO;


LISTNUM 1 \l 12336             Farnaz Riahi, Vice‑President of Finance at channel m;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12337             Bruce Hamlin, Vice‑President of Sales;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12338             Paul Denys, who is a member of channel m's Advisory Council in Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12339             In the second row with me, again going from your right to left:

LISTNUM 1 \l 12340             Jeff Keeble, Senior Manager of Deloitte Touche, who will be available to speak to reviews of Calgary and Edmonton TV markets and projected revenues of channel m proposed stations;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12341             Jane Ha, Associate Vice‑President of Ipsos Reid;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12342             Greg Kane, our legal counsel, and relative to this community, a member of the Board of Directors of Glenbow Museum;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12343             Janet Callaghan, partner of the firm Callaghan‑Osborne and author of the study prepared for channel m on Advertising Market Demand;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12344             Mark Burko, who is the Vice‑President of Airtime Television Sales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12345             I am also pleased to recognize in the audience my partner and fellow Director, Doug Holtby and James Ho, in the front row on the right there.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12346             Our other partners Geoffrey Lau and Joe Segal are, unfortunately, under the weather and unable to be here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12347             Gary Segal is representing his father Joe Segal.  We are all very proud to note that Joe was recently named to the Canadian Business Hall of Fame.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12348             I will now begin the introduction of our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12349             Tomorrow, February the 14th, is Valentine's Day for many.  However, it is a much more significant date in the channel m family because it is the anniversary of the Commission's decision in 2002 to issue us a licence to provide a new ethnic television service in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12350             We are extremely proud of what we have accomplished at channel m in Vancouver and building upon that success we are very excited by the opportunity of establishing new over‑the‑air television service in Edmonton and Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12351             Art Reitmayer, our President and CEO of channel m, and the exceptional group of staff and advisors he has assembled will now assist me and place before you our vision for two vibrant ethnic and multicultural television stations, each reflecting the unique ethnic makeup of Edmonton and Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12352             Art Reitmayer.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12353             MR. REITMAYER:  Thanks, Bob.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12354             There are many reasons we believe there couldn't be a more appropriate time to introduce ethnic television into Edmonton and Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12355             Alberta has become Canada's new economic and ethnic powerhouse.  Its evolution to become Canada's fastest‑growing province has resulted in a phenomenal influx of new immigrants which add to the already diverse ethnic landscape of Alberta.  These vibrant ethnic communities, established and newly arrived alike, offer an abundance of culture waiting to be reflected.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12356             For example, Alberta is host to over 40,000 arts and cultural events per year and cities play host to spectacular community events such as Edmonton's Heritage Festival where over 58 different ethnic communities come together to showcase their cultural heritage.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12357             In preparation for this application we met many of the senior leaders of Alberta's ethnic communities.  Whether it was the Ukrainian Cultural Centres and Congress, the Canadian Polish Congress, the German Canadian Club, the Sikh Federation of Northern Alberta, the Chinese Bilingual Education Association, the Austrian Society or the Pakistan Canadian Association, to name a few, the resounding message was that there is currently no local television programming to support and reflect their communities' expressions and values.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12358             Joining us today on our panel are Larisa Sembaliuk and Paul Denys, two prominent community leaders who will help us to explain this void in the Alberta landscape.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12359             Larisa.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12360             MS SEMBALIUK:  Mr. Chairperson, Commissioners, I am delighted to welcome you to another beautiful winter day in Calgary and I am honoured to be asked to say a few words as an involved representative for the Ukrainian community in Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12361             As an artist and active participant in the arts and cultural community I can tell you that Albertans are excited about the prospect for bringing multicultural broadcasting into our homes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12362             It is particularly important to me that channel m is committed to local programming.  Their proposed local programming facilities, support for the independent producers and producing programs for Edmonton's multicultural audience will facilitate interaction with the community and ensure that most locally relevant events are broadcast in a timely manner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12363             I have listened to channel m's philosophy, I have researched their performance in Vancouver and I had an opportunity to ask them some tough questions.  With the benefit of this information I have agreed to be head of the Advisory Council for Edmonton, a pledge that I do not take lightly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12364             channel m have proven their commitment to fund and mentor local ethnic producers, to produce quality ethnic programming and to be community leaders.  As such, I foresee that the ethnic communities in Edmonton and Calgary will take pride in seeing their communities reflected in similar quality programming, cultural event coverage and sponsorships.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12365             Paul.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12366             MR. DENYS:  Thank you.  Like Larisa, I am delighted to welcome you to Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12367             As the Manager of the Polish Canadian Cultural Centre, I have close ties to Calgary's Polish community.  I too believe that the time has come to introduce multicultural television stations into Alberta.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12368             Since the time of settlement in Alberta, Calgary is the fourth most common destination for immigrants, and Edmonton is home to the fifth largest ethnic community in Canada.  Statistics Canada immigration trends forecast significant expansion of Alberta's multicultural communities within the next five to 10 years, and yet surprisingly, there is no local ethnic television broadcaster operating in the province.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12369             I too have listened to channel m's philosophy and reviewed their commitments.  Based on this information I have also agreed to be an Advisory Council member on their Calgary Advisory Board.  Our Chair, Dr. Harjat Singh, is in India and is unable to attend, as she will explain in the video you will see in a moment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12370             There is a definite need for multicultural television in Alberta as it will promote diversity and bring our communities together.  I am confident that the ethnic communities will take pride in seeing themselves reflected in the type of quality programming that channel m will provide.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12371             Art.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12372             MR. REITMAYER:  Thanks, Paul.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12373             Our application is based on three simple values:  quality, by presenting the best possible product to our viewers; community, by supporting and becoming an integral part of the communities we serve; and local, by ensuring we operate within and produce programming for our ethnic viewers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12374             These values have guided our vision for channel m's answer to the call for a television undertaking in Alberta by leading us to provide separate and distinct programming schedules to service the local needs of Edmonton's and Calgary's audiences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12375             In each of these schedules, we offer:

LISTNUM 1 \l 12376             ‑ 86 hours or 68 percent per week of ethnic programming targeting the multilingual and multiracial communities of Edmonton and Calgary, respectively;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12377             ‑ 73 hours or 57 percent per week of programming in a third language aimed at the diverse ethnic communities of Alberta;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12378             ‑ at least 60 percent of programming overall and 50 percent during the evening hours of 6:00 p.m. to midnight will be dedicated to Canadian programming;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12379             ‑ a commitment to 100 percent ethnic in prime time between 9:00 and 11:00 p.m. seven days a week;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12380             ‑ over 60 hours per week of local ethnic programming will be produced in Alberta;


LISTNUM 1 \l 12381             ‑ a commitment to expend $4.64 million in direct benefits in Alberta for independent productions, script and concept development, and educational initiatives;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12382             ‑ a commitment to quality ethnic productions using local ethnic writers, directors and producers;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12383             ‑ the creation of approximately 100 new local television production and broadcast technology jobs for Albertans.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12384             Showcasing quality local programming on the screen is our highest priority.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12385             To do this, we will first ensure new program ideas are encouraged and developed through our commitment to spend $650,000 over our seven‑year licence term on program script and concept development.  This seed capital will help create compelling first‑rate Canadian product through our local independent writers and producers for generations to come.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12386             Secondly, it is vital that our independent production community receive the support they need to get their programs on the air.  We plan to support them in a very realistic way by committing no less than $3.7 million to license programming from our independent production community over the licence term.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12387             And finally, to ensure the viability of the ethnic broadcast system, it is important that we develop the next generation of broadcasters.  As such, we will assist ethnic students by committing to spend at least $280,000 over the licence term in support of their educational endeavours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12388             But this is just the beginning.  We have demonstrated that we can provide compelling quality programming to our Vancouver audiences and we will now describe in more detail our exciting plans to continue this proud record through our programming in Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12389             Johnny.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12390             MR. MICHEL:  channel m's outstanding programming will reflect both Edmonton's and Calgary's vibrant ethnic communities.  Our passion for quality coupled with our desire to serve our local communities has resulted in a budget of over $40 million for ethnic programming in Alberta over our seven‑year term.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12391             What makes the channel m programming model different, however, is our focus and understanding of how to produce quality local community‑based ethnic programming tailored to the different communities we will serve.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12392             Working directly with the local communities in Alberta, we will produce programs directed towards a minimum of 17 distinct ethnic groups to be broadcast in 17 different languages.  Of the 17 languages, 13 will be produced in Edmonton or Calgary.  Combined, over 60 hours per week of channel m's ethnic programming will be produced in Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12393             Before we put forth a program schedule, we discussed our philosophy with the ethnic communities and producers in Calgary and Edmonton.  These consultations were very helpful and they confirmed our view that the two communities are very different, with a different mix of ethnic groups in the two cities all having different programming needs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12394             We realized that the best way to serve them would be to derive separate and distinct programming schedules for each market.  So that is what we have proposed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12395             Edmonton's program schedule will consist of a minimum of 8 hours a week devoted to Ukrainian language programming as Edmonton boasts an historic and extensive Ukrainian community.  To address the flourishing Asian and South‑Asian population, we will produce 6 hours per week of local Cantonese and six hours per week of Hindi news.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12396             These will be locally produced newscasts out of our Edmonton studio, with Edmonton anchors, writers, reporters, editors and camera people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12397             In addition to the news information and educational programming, channel m will produce, finance and/or license representative third‑language local programming that recognizes the many fascinating and diverse ethnic groups that are such an important part of Edmonton.  These programs are in a one‑hour magazine format style and reflect each community back to its constituents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12398             Third‑language programming produced by Edmonton producers will include programming for the Arabic, Dutch, Italian, Polish and Filipino communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12399             Calgary's program schedule, in contrast to Edmonton, will consist of a minimum of 8 hours a week devoted to German language programming.  The Calgary program schedule will also provide a major commitment to 6 hours a week of news in each of Mandarin and Punjabi.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12400             The survey done for channel m by Ipsos Reid indicated that the most influential factors for increasing viewership in the new station would be the local news with a focus on ethnic communities in the respondent's mother tongue.  Again, these will be locally produced newscasts out of our Calgary studios.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12401             In addition to the news and information and educational programming, channel m will work with Calgary talent to produce third‑language programming for the Polish, Danish, Dutch, Italian and Spanish communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12402             These independent producers in Edmonton and Calgary, respectively, will be responsible for producing over 10 hours a week of original third‑language television programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12403             In an era where there are few outlets for multicultural producers to apply their craft and where no industry funding sources are available to them, it is amazing that any multicultural shows are produced at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12404             channel m's model, on the other hand, ensures success because for third‑language programming to be successful it is of paramount importance that meaningful working relationships are developed with our independent producers, directors and technical personnel.  In this way, channel m excels.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12405             We form synergistic relationships with our production community through such avenues as helping them set up their own production companies, supplying camera and editing equipment to them, assisting them with seminars on how to tell stories, how to shoot, how to edit, and by generally being a partner with them in their communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12406             The result is that the programs produced for us by our independent producers meet the highest standards possible, dispelling any myth that ethnic programming is somehow of a lower quality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12407             One of the greatest rewards we get from speaking to our viewers in Vancouver is the pride they feel from watching programming directed to their communities that is of the same or higher quality than conventional English services.  That same high standard will be brought to our stations in Edmonton and Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12408             Art.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12409             MR. REITMAYER:  At the heart of our consultative process are separate local advisory committees in each of Edmonton and Calgary.  Based on our experience in Vancouver, which you will see in a moment in our video, our advisory councils are professional working committees that take an active role in guiding decisions at channel m.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12410             There are eight representatives each in Edmonton and Calgary comprising members from the Ukrainian, German, Polish, South‑Asian, Chinese, Ismaili, Dutch, Scandinavian and Arabic communities.  Individually and collectively they are an impressive group and our programming and overall broadcast operations will benefit enormously from their ongoing advice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12411             From inception channel m was intent on building bridges with our ethnic audiences, celebrating our differences and fostering understanding in Vancouver's communities by actively promoting a broad range of community programming that celebrates Vancouver's diversity.  We said we would be inclusive and we are.  Our track record speaks for itself.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12412             Since its inception channel m has consistently produced over 56 hours of local programming per week in over 22 different languages.  This represents the highest local production requirement and most aggressive language count for any broadcaster in any Canadian market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12413             We service the needs of five of our ethnic groups with third‑language news, promote dialogue by offering call‑in interactive shows in three different languages and produce no less than 12 separate ethnic productions out of our Vancouver studios.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12414             While our licence commitment was to work with five independent producers, we currently work with 11.  We also understand that being an integral member of the community means being an active champion in their community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12415             In an area of community support, we actively participate in over 75 multicultural events each year, air public service announcements valued at over $2.5 million since our launch and serve on over 14 charity, non‑profit and community organization boards.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12416             Most importantly, we have achieved success without sacrificing quality.  The industry has recognized this commitment by presenting us with international, national and regional awards from prestigious organizations such as Promax, BDA, the New York Film Festival, the Canadian and British Columbian Association of Broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12417             All of this has been accomplished in three short years that we have been on the air but don't think that is the length of our experience.  The management team at channel m has in total over 115 years experience in television broadcasting in Alberta and British Columbia, including extensive experience with startup operations.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12418             We now seek the approval to bring our brand of high quality programming commitment to local communities and western‑based leadership to Calgary and Edmonton markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12419             Our team is no stranger to Alberta's landscape as many of us have lived and been part of our communities in Red Deer, Vegreville, Edmonton and Calgary.  Working in Alberta has given us a clear understanding and appreciation of the people, the communities and the businesses that we would like to serve.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12420             The Ipsos Reid survey of the Alberta market found that western‑based ownership of the new television undertaking in Edmonton and Calgary was extremely important, with respondents confirming that western‑based ownership was of utmost importance to them.  The stations that will be most welcome in Alberta will be western‑based such as channel m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12421             We are confident that our vision for vibrant ethnic multicultural and multiracial, multilingual over‑the‑air television services will make a difference in Alberta's rich ethnic landscape.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12422             Now we would like to share a little of our exceptional channel m brand of broadcasting with you.  This short video starring some of our staff and produced entirely in‑house will introduce some of our advisors, our philosophies and the channel m vision for Alberta.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

LISTNUM 1 \l 12423             MR. LEE:  When we appeared before the Commission at the 2001 public hearing, we gave you our commitment that we would meet or exceed all the promises we made to you and the citizens of Vancouver.  We asked you to trust us and you did.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12424             We have not let you down with our services in Vancouver and today we once again ask for that trust so that we can provide the same exceptional service in Edmonton and Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12425             In this era of ever‑increasing consolidation and in order to meet the requirements of our Broadcasting Act, it is extremely important to maintain as many independent voices as possible in the Canadian broadcasting system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12426             We are a strong western voice with a responsible business plan, with reasonable assumptions that we have verified.  We have the passion, the commitment, the resources and the experience to ensure that a channel m service in Edmonton and Calgary will be a complete success, contributing to setting a new standard of excellence for ethnic television in Canada.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12427             Thank you for your attention.  Art Reitmayer will be happy to respond to any questions you may have or direct them to the appropriate individual on our panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12428             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Lee.  I will ask Commissioner Cugini to ask the first questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12429             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12430             Mr. Lee, Mr. Reitmayer and to your panel, good morning and welcome to these proceedings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12431             Because I believe that every good idea starts with what viewers will end up seeing on the screen, my first line of question will involve programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12432             In your application in response to question 7.3, you say that your broadcast week will be 154 hours but your sample schedule submitted with your application shows 126.  Can you confirm whether your broadcast week will be 154 or 126 hours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12433             MR. REITMAYER:  What we were looking at there, Commissioner Cugini, was basically the on‑air time period for the station versus the 6A to midnight time period.  So the 6A to midnight is obviously the 126 hours and the balance of that would be the time period to where we would actually sign off.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12434             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So all of your programming commitments are based on 126 hours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12435             MR. REITMAYER:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12436             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And that, of course, includes the 68 percent of ethnic programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12437             MR. REITMAYER:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12438             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And you will accept that as a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12439             MR. REITMAYER:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12440             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  It is good to get those things out of the way.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12441             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Now in terms of U.S. programming on your schedule, is it fair to assume that the 35 hours classified as English is primarily U.S. programming?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12442             MR. REITMAYER:  I think what you see on the schedule, there probably is, you know ‑‑ again, it was a presentation schedule that was put together with a significant amount of consultation with the various members of the communities in both Calgary and Edmonton and then looking at the balance of that with English, and that could go up or down but a good portion of that would be the U.S. programming that would come in to assist in cross‑subsidizing the overall programming that would be offered on channel m in Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12443             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So these 35 hours are not necessarily a maximum?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12444             MR. REITMAYER:  No.  We would look at some range up to ‑‑ the maximum, I believe, that is allowed in the policy is somewhere around 63 in English and that would not all obviously be foreign programming because we do often offer programming that is cross‑cultural that is dealing with initiatives that arise within the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12445             We have numerous examples were we have done ‑‑ for example, within the Vancouver market, early on there was an opportunity for us to broadcast a Lunar New Year Parade or the Chinese New Year Parade in Chinatown downtown and initially we offered that program.  When we first broadcast it, it was done in Cantonese, thinking that that was really the market that we were looking at.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12446             In subsequent years we felt the best way to actually do some cross‑cultural programming on that was to offer the parade in English and do a number of vignettes around that that brought the broader community into that event, and so that was done in English and continues to be done in English.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12447             The success of the event now has gone from where we are at ‑‑ it initially started at 18,000 people at the parade and last year there were 60,000 people at the parade that are celebrating Lunar New Year with the broader community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12448             So that would really be a flexible number that we would need to at least have some flex and wouldn't lock down at 34.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12449             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  But you have now committed to 68 percent of ethnic programming.  Let us make it easy, will you accept a condition of licence that no more than 32 percent of your programming schedule would be in English?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12450             MR. REITMAYER:  Could I just take a quick moment to review that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12451             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Certainly.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 12452             MR. REITMAYER:  Can you repeat that please, Commissioner Cugini?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12453             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  In my previous question, you committed to 68 percent of your schedule being ethnic ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12454             MR. REITMAYER:  Correct.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12455             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  ‑‑ leaving 32 percent of your schedule, and will you accept a condition of licence that no more than 32 percent of your programming schedule will be in English?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12456             MR. REITMAYER:  In English?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12457             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12458             MR. REITMAYER:  Well in fact though, I think the example that I just provided is that you would see some crossover between ethnic that would also be in English.  So to restrict it back to 32 percent in English would be difficult because, again, within that 68 percent you would find some English ethnic programming as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12459             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  How much of your programming schedule will be U.S. programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12460             MR. REITMAYER:  I believe at present you are looking at somewhere around 40 hours and we can get the exact number on that.  It would not exceed what is currently allowed under the Broadcast Regulations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12461             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Your financial projections in terms of advertising revenue, how many hours of U.S. programming have you included in order to come up with your financial projections against advertising?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12462             MR. REITMAYER:  Again ‑‑ perhaps I will ask our Vice‑President of Sales, Mr. Hamlin, and Johnny Michel to also assist on that but I believe it is mid‑forties that we have got in the schedule that we provided with our projections.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12463             Bruce, maybe you can provide some additional detail.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12464             MR. HAMLIN:  The number of hours in the financial projection is 48 but it is not all U.S. that is based upon those 48 hours.  I believe it is about 40 hours is actual U.S. hours and the other 8 are other language offers like the movies and things like that that we would obviously attain some ratings then as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12465             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Yes, I was looking for the specific number of U.S. hours that were used to calculate your financial projections.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12466             MR. HAMLIN:  I believe the number is 40.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12467             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Forty hours, okay.  Perhaps legal counsel could take this under advisement and come up with an appropriate COL before the end of the question period.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12468             Now in terms of the 40 hours of U.S. programs, do you anticipate that the titles will be the same in both Edmonton and Calgary?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12469             MR. REITMAYER:  That would be the plan, yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12470             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Are they the same as they are in Vancouver?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12471             MR. REITMAYER:  That would be ideal if we could arrange that.  Obviously, there are synergies in acquiring U.S. programming and foreign in general.  Obviously, the more capacity that you can bring to the market, the better the type of arrangement that you can negotiate.  So that would be definitely something that we would look to do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12472             Whether we could do that in all cases, because of the differences and the magnitude of our company, we are not of a scale that would really allow us to ensure that that would happen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12473             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  But you anticipate that ‑‑ I mean clearly it would be an advantage if you were able to leverage those synergies and amortize the cost of the U.S. programming across all three markets?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12474             MR. REITMAYER:  No question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12475             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I want to move now to the specifics of the 86 hours of ethnic programming.  Of the 17 ethnic groups you propose to serve in Calgary, the primary languages are German, Mandarin, Punjabi, Ukrainian, followed by Cantonese and Hindi.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12476             According to statistics that we have from Stats Canada only 0.1 percent of the population in Calgary identified German as their home language and only 1.5 percent of the population identified German as their mother tongue, and the stats for Mandarin‑speaking are 0.2 and 0.4, respectively.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12477             So the general question is:  What factors did you take into consideration in determining what languages your services would feature?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12478             MR. REITMAYER:  The process that we took to arrive at our programming schedule was really a combination and it was consultations with the communities, both Calgary and Edmonton, and we had dialogue with them and looking at what languages ‑‑ it was a combination of what languages were ascending with respect to new immigrants and what communities were currently within the market and looking to see themselves reflected on the television screens and their cultures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12479             When you look at statistics sometimes with respect to home language, I think sometimes they can be somewhat misleading.  I am also going to ask Larisa to assist or at least expand on this but first I would like to give my own personal example.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12480             My parents were European immigrants and initially when I was growing up my parents spoke German in the home and that was the case for a number of years until my sisters and I started attending public school.  Then the language that was in use in the home became English and I suspect that had my parents at that time filled out surveys with Stats Can they would have said that the home language at that time would have been English because that was the language that was used in the home.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12481             That doesn't mean that the German language has stopped being spoken in our home.  I continue to speak and understand it.  I watch the German program that we produce in Vancouver.  My daughter also speaks German.  My parents continue to watch the programming, as do my relatives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12482             So when you look at that expanded base ‑‑ but yet, I suspect all of them would identify as home language in use would be English.  So that statistic may not be as revealing with respect to what the community is looking to see as what is really the case.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12483             Perhaps, Larisa, I could ask you to expand on that a bit.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12484             MS SEMBALIUK:  Certainly.  Commissioner, my personal background is Ukrainian and I was able to bring to the Advisory Council a perspective that it doesn't often show up in statistics.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12485             There are a lot of groups in Canada that came over 120 years ago, Ukrainians, Germans, Polish, Chinese, that are referred to now often as old‑comers or integrated ethnic groups, and we have been around here for almost four or five generations but the language isn't dead.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12486             Using Ukrainian as an example, 30 years ago in Edmonton, the Ukrainian bilingual program was established and has been followed by ‑‑ seven other languages are now being hosted in the Edmonton public school system.  The Ukrainian bilingual program has had over 4,000 graduates that have gone from kindergarten to grade 12, gone through the university Ukrainian program, have become active in the community using actively the Ukrainian language.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12487             When Chernobyl happened, within 48 hours Ukrainian‑speaking doctors and medical technicians from the University of Alberta were able to respond.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12488             When Ukraine became independent we didn't just have tourist agents who could speak Ukrainian, we had Ukrainians from the legal profession from the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies at U of A that helped in the formation of the Ukrainian Constitution, so an active language.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12489             Grant MacEwan Community College has the Ukrainian Resource Centre that is actively translating university and college textbooks for nursing, dentistry and pharmacology to be used in Ukraine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12490             So the language is active, it is alive, and we have got students from our bilingual program who have gone through the technology that Canada's education system has to offer, which includes learning how to use Camcorders, digital formats that 12‑year‑olds can now use in doing a Ukrainian presentation in grade seven, so that we are really excited about the opportunity to work in the broadcasting format and make our language that is alive come forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12491             In addition, there is a demographic that is often ignored and that is our seniors in nursing homes.  We have got 80‑year‑olds, 90‑year‑olds, sons and daughters of the first pioneers, who have integrated.  They use English as their first language but their most comfortable language is Ukrainian, German, Italian, and their link to the community now is the TV.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12492             Every room in a nursing home, in an old folks' home, has a television and they are delighted to have programming in a language that they are most familiar with.  It gives them opportunities to see their children, their grandchildren, their great‑grandchildren come into their home at times that they are not allowed to go out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12493             So the choice of including programming for the old‑comers, for the integrated ethnic groups, I think, is a very solid opportunity that channel m is offering.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12494             MR. REITMAYER:  I believe Paul has some additional comments.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12495             MR. DENYS:  The situation with the Polish community is quite similar with English becoming very predominant with youngsters.  Nevertheless, parents still see it as a very important advantage to their children that they continue to speak Polish.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12496             Between Edmonton and Calgary there are three Polish language schools, one full‑time, two part‑time.  I myself am a graduate of such a school and thanks to that I continue to be fluent in both Polish and English.  I graduated with what is an equivalent of a Polish high school education as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12497             Oftentimes in my job I meet people of Polish descent who are quite saddened by the fact that their parents or perhaps the community at large wasn't able to somehow help them foster the language that they have lost forever and perhaps programming such as what is being proposed by channel m will be able to keep those people in touch with the language and we won't have to talk about the fact that a particular language is dying or dead.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12498             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Is there any programming in those three languages currently available in the market on either another television service or radio and even in print?  Are those languages prominent in the market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12499             MR. REITMAYER:  When you look at ‑‑ there is a couple of things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12500             First off, there is some that you do see on some of the higher‑tier services but they really are not localized programming in any way, shape or form.  They really reflect communities either often from Ontario or in many cases even more distant.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12501             It really would be a situation where you have got similar to what we encountered when we came into the Vancouver market, where you had "producers."  I don't really think they were producing much but what was happening is you had videos, poor dubs of videos being pushed over to a service and then being distributed in the community and it would be old movies that they may have picked up and distributed or programming from years and years and years ago that really isn't relevant to anyone.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12502             So there may have been some language product but there really wasn't anything that was locally relevant and the number of hours that would be offered is considerably less than what we would look to offer to those significant communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12503             And perhaps, Larisa, is there anything you wanted to add to that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12504             MS SEMBALIUK:  I just wanted to say that there are a couple of Ukrainian programs that are produced in eastern Canada and one of the most frustrating things for us in Alberta is to see a show with material that doesn't reflect what is happening in our communities, promoting a program or a concert or an interview with someone who is appearing in Montreal or Ottawa next week.  It is interesting but not locally relevant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12505             Or advertising for Buduchnist's Credit Union in Toronto, where we do have our own ethnic‑based business institutions in Edmonton that would make way more sense to have the local advertising come to us.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12506             A lot of times people just turn off the information coming from the east because it is not relevant and so we are looking forward to getting information that is pertinent to our situation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12507             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And there are no radio programs in those languages?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12508             MR. REITMAYER:  In some cases, Edmonton more predominantly so than Calgary.  There is CKER in Edmonton that was just recently acquired by Rogers that does have some programming in some of the languages that we are discussing here but our belief is, as always, these can only complement as opposed to compete for individuals and increase the opportunities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12509             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you, that was a very thorough response.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12510             Again, of the 86 hours of ethnic programming, how many of those hours will be exclusive to each market?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12511             MR. REITMAYER:  The majority actually would be exclusive.  In language or in production?  Because, again, in some cases what we ‑‑ you know, through consultation, again, with the communities, what we found is there is a desire to have like languages in both markets, Calgary and Edmonton, but what we have undertaken is to ensure that they reflect the local communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12512             So again, the communities of Edmonton and Calgary having operated ‑‑ initially when I was in Alberta I spent extensive time in Red Deer.  So I was between both cities and saw the competition that exists between those markets and then spent time in Edmonton as well and they are different cities and communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12513             So it was our undertaking that to the degree possible we wanted to ensure that the model that we built in Vancouver that reflects local communities is what individuals will see in Calgary and Edmonton.  So there is like language programming in some markets still locally produced.  So again, there is a distinction there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12514             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  Can you make that distinction a bit more clear for me?  What I want to know is 86 hours of ethnic programming in both markets, does this mean that 86 hours will be exclusive to Calgary and a second 86 hours will be exclusive to Edmonton, in other words, 86 hours in each market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12515             MR. REITMAYER:  No, there is some overlap and I will ask Johnny Michel perhaps to take you through language programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12516             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  That would be great, thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12517             MR. MICHEL:  Commissioner Cugini, the local programming aspect is 30 hours that is exclusive to Edmonton and 30 hours produced in Edmonton; 30 hours that is produced in Calgary.  Some of that programming that is produced in Edmonton will actually run in Calgary as well, not all of it.  Some of the programs that are produced in Calgary will run in Edmonton as well, not all of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12518             Some of the local independent productions ‑‑ for example, we are committing to five local independent production hours in Calgary, five in Edmonton, three of which are the same language but there will be two distinctive productions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12519             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Sorry, is that in addition to the 30?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12520             MR. MICHEL:  No, that is including.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12521             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  That is part of the 30?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12522             MR. MICHEL:  That is part of the 30, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12523             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12524             MR. MICHEL:  As far as languages is concerned, we are committing to 17 languages in Calgary, 17 languages in Edmonton, 16 of which are the same languages, not necessarily the same program, with the one difference in language.  One has got Arabic and one has got Spanish.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12525             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  What makes up the balance of 56 hours then, 86 minus 30?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12526             MR. MICHEL:  As I mentioned, 30 hours will be local to each TV station.  Some of the local stuff that would be produced in Calgary would run in Edmonton.  That would be acquired Canadian as far as the two stations are concerned.  Others would be foreign in third‑language programming, about 10 hours in each market.  And the rest would be Canadian acquired, some of which would be from channel m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12527             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you have a number as to how many hours would come from channel m?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12528             MR. MICHEL:  Yes, about 16 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12529             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  About 16 hours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12530             MR. REITMAYER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12531             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Is that all of your Canadian acquired or do you have other sources for acquiring Canadian ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12532             MR. MICHEL:  There may be some but that pretty much is the bulk of our Canadian acquired.  This is a starting point and our hope, as we have done in Vancouver, is to do as many local hours as possible.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12533             As Art mentioned in our opening comments, in Vancouver our commitment was for five hours from independent producers.  We currently have 11.  Next month it is going to go up to 12 and in about six months it is going to go up to 13.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12534             So that is our strategy, is to continue to develop local talent and turn all the Canadian acquired ‑‑ not all, as much as we can Canadian acquired into locally produced programming.  That is our commitment, that is what we feel audiences want and this is the best way we can serve the communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12535             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.  The 30 hours that you will produce in both Calgary and Edmonton, what will be the genres of those 30 hours and in which languages?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12536             MR. MICHEL:  The 30 hours that we are doing in Calgary, there is going to be German language programming and the German program that we are doing is going to be a live program and it is going to be a newsmagazine style program.  This is going to be the same format that we started in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12537             In Vancouver we recently launched, in the fall, the first ever live Hindi program with phone‑ins, entertainment stars, you name it.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12538             This is our plan in terms of what we will be producing out of Calgary.  This will be a live German language program.  There will be some English in there as well but predominantly it will be in German.  It will have a news element to it.  It will have a community affairs element to it.  It will have coverage of festivals and community activities.  It will have an entertainment style to it or segments.  So that would be produced in Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12539             We are also producing 6 hours a week of Mandarin news in Calgary and we are doing 6 hours of Punjabi news in Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12540             On the other hand, in Edmonton we are producing the same style of program as the German program but in Ukrainian and we are doing 6 hours of Cantonese news in Edmonton and 6 hours of Hindi news in Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12541             We are also producing weekend people in the news programs in both Edmonton and Calgary.  In Calgary it will be in German people in the news and in Edmonton it will be Ukrainian.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12542             We are also really excited about ‑‑ we are going to be doing 26 one‑hour to learn German and learn Ukrainian and that is the one thing that we have always gotten from feedback from the communities that we serve, is that they don't want to lose touch with their language and they want their children and grandchildren to learn the language.  So we plan on developing a series that will do just that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12543             Yes, go ahead.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12544             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I was just going to ask will that be station‑produced?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12545             MR. MICHEL:  Yes.  That is part of our local commitment, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12546             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.  So at least for the first license term, you think that the majority of the local programming will be in fact news and information programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12547             MR. MICHEL:  And educational as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12548             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  And in both cases you will be using local talent in both markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12549             MR. MICHEL:  Absolutely.  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12550             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you anticipate any synergies between the two news services between Calgary and Edmonton?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12551             MR. MICHEL:  Well, I will let Mr. Reitmayer or Dianne maybe handle that specific to the news with respect to how that would work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12552             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12553             MR. MICHEL:  Thanks.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12554             MR. REITMAYER:  We would anticipate that there would be some.  There are stories in any news organization when you look at it.  We currently in Vancouver, even though we don't have operations in other parts of the country, we do source stories from those markets because they are of interest and relevant to Canadians living in ‑‑ whether it is Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12555             So the same would be the case with Calgary and Edmonton but it is not our intention to have one producing news for the other.  They are two distinct news services and news operations that would operate independently and make those determinations as to the stories that would go on the air independently.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12556             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you anticipate any synergies with your news production in Vancouver?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12557             MR. REITMAYER:  Again, to the degree that you have the ability to source stories through your local operation that are relevant to the communities in Calgary and Edmonton, yes.  Other than that the operations are independent.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12558             There are some things that obviously from having operated a news operation in Vancouver for a number of years now ‑‑ and our News Director Dianne has vast experience in production of news.  So a lot of the guidelines, the practices and whatnot that we developed in Vancouver, we would obviously offer those to the individuals responsible for the newsrooms in Calgary and Edmonton but that would be the extent of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12559             Those newsrooms are independent and they are going to make decisions and determinations on the stories that go to air that are relevant to those local communities and those will be made in the market by individuals operating in those stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12560             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Would that be true as well for the national and international news segments of your newscasts?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12561             MR. REITMAYER:  Yes, our segments ‑‑ and perhaps I will ask Dianne to weigh in on this one ‑‑ but we don't have the same kind of structured approach.  I mean ours is really relevant to what is going on in the local community and that really drives the rundown for how our news is really delivered over the course of the day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12562             Maybe, Dianne, I can ask you to just expand on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12563             MS COLLINS:  Thank you, Art.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12564             Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, good morning.  We in Vancouver ‑‑ again, as Mr. Reitmayer said, are very strong on the local community and one of the advantages that we have is that we have a news partnership with CTV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12565             Now there may be a day, for example, where ‑‑ there is an organization in Vancouver called Success, so they may be doing a news conference to talk about something that is going on, an initiative that they are putting forward for the Chinese community, and there may also be a news conference at the very same time where, say, the Education Minister in the province is talking about some initiative in schools.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12566             Now both of those would be relevant and interesting to our audience but at channel m we would send our reporters out to the Success news conference because we know we can talk to them in language, we can get clips from the various newsmakers and present those on our newscast, whereas with our partnership with CTV, if we talked to them in the morning and they said, well we are going to go out and cover this news conference that Shirley Bond is doing today, we can take their video and then translate it for the various newscasts so that they are able to use those stories.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12567             So we try as often as we can to be local.  Our reporters and our assignment people have tremendous contacts in the community, so they are always coming up with interesting ideas for stories.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12568             And then we also have Associated Press as well as CTV and Asian Television where we can get stories from either India or from China so that we can present those as well to our audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12569             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  According to your schedule, in particular in Calgary, you have selected to provide your news only in Mandarin?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12570             MS COLLINS:  No, the news in Calgary will be in Mandarin and Punjabi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12571             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Right, okay.  You are right.  So let's go to your Mandarin newscast.  According to Stats Canada there are more Cantonese‑speaking people in Calgary than there are Mandarin, so I am curious as to why you would provide news only in Mandarin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12572             MR. REITMAYER:  Again, that was the result of extensive community consultation and what we found ‑‑ again, when you are trying to develop schedules ‑‑ and it obviously harkens back to one of your earlier questions where you asked if what we see on the schedule today will be the case for our licence term.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12573             Sorry to go back that far but in all honesty, what we try to do ‑‑ and if you looked at our schedule when we started in Vancouver, the schedule that you see today is different.  I mean it is a very dynamic process.  The reason that we have an Advisory Council here with us today and the reason we have advisory councils in Vancouver is to assist us to ensure that that schedule reflects the community as we go forward and continues to reflect the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12574             And the other part of that is really capacity‑building.  When we first originated in Vancouver there wasn't really a lot of producers around to offer other types of programming.  We felt it was important to offer news programming at that time.  But as you can see now, Johnny explained, we do a live daily program in Punjabi that is really talking about entertainment and everything else.  It is offered in the afternoon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12575             Could we have started the schedule with that?  It would have been difficult at that point in time but we find ourselves now in the very fortunate position where we have the talent and the desire to go forward with that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12576             And would we bring that same kind of determination to Calgary and Edmonton?  Yes.  And would the schedule continue to evolve and reflect the communities' needs, wants and desires?  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12577             So I mean that is really where we come from and coming back to the question of whether it is Mandarin or Cantonese in Calgary, when we were having our consultations with members of the community what was indicated to us was that the significant growth in the community was in the Mandarin language.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12578             And additionally, many of the Cantonese speakers were moving towards the Mandarin language in an effort ‑‑ because of the trade issues and everything else and so there was a strong desire to see Mandarin news on the schedule.  So we felt that was the appropriate place to begin with respect to a proposal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12579             Does that mean that Cantonese would not exist on that schedule?  Not at all.  We would have to continue to work with our consultations as we bring the schedule to air and as we go forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12580             And it is the same kind of thing we encountered in Edmonton.  We had extensive meetings up there and we were originally led to understand that the majority of the community up there would appreciate programming in Cantonese.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12581             And speaking even to your earlier home language question, we encountered a number of individuals up there that are Cantonese speakers and they are encouraging their children to learn Mandarin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12582             So their question to us was why is there no Mandarin news daily in Edmonton?  And we explained to them that the community there, we understood, was stronger in Cantonese and everything else.  And he said, yes but they are all learning Mandarin as well and we would like to see some Mandarin.  Our kids ‑‑ in our home we actually speak English and when they go to see their grandparents they can't communicate with them because they are teaching them Mandarin and their grandparents speak Cantonese.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12583             So you have got all these different dynamics at play and I think the important part of what we do is we try to make sure that we reflect that through the schedule that we offer in the communities that we operate in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12584             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So does that mean that although the schedule only shows Mandarin news, if licensed, by the time you get to air you may provide news in Cantonese in Calgary?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12585             MR. REITMAYER:  We would have to undertake consultations and, you know, would we like to, if that is what the community is looking for, that is what we would look to offer.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12586             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I appreciate that it is a sample schedule but I hope you can appreciate that it is the indication to us as to whether or not you understand fully the market that you want to enter and you understand the needs and wants of the communities that you are proposing to serve.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12587             MR. REITMAYER:  And we do, and I hope that we have done ‑‑ and when you look at the appendix even in our original submission it demonstrates the number of individuals that we spoke with in the community and that was very early on in the process.  We have assembled an entire advisory council and part of that was, again, to guide us as we were trying to put together our schedules for Calgary and Edmonton.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12588             Does that mean the process ends at that point?  No, I mean that really is just the beginning.  It is an indication of some of our thinking at that point in time but we continue to meet and have dialogue on that and should we be successful in securing the licences, those schedules are going to continue to evolve over the time of the licence and going forward because, again, there is capacity within the community that assists and allows us ‑‑ as Johnny indicated earlier, we started with five independent producers in Vancouver and I remember our early meetings before we even went to air.  We were going, five languages, five independent producers, boy, that is going to be a bit of a tough nut.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12589             And if you look at us today, it is 11 and growing and we have got some phenomenal programming on the air because of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12590             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.  I want to move to your commitment of $4.36 million to independent productions over the seven‑year term of the licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12591             Is this an independently administered fund or is it a fund that will be administered by channel m?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12592             MR. REITMAYER:  No, it is a fund that is administered by channel m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12593             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And what will be the criteria for determining which project will get funded?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12594             MR. REITMAYER:  I will ask Johnny to expand on that a bit, but again, it is really to work with and build capacity within the ethnic communities for production of programs that are relevant to the ethnic communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12595             I will maybe ask Johnny to expand on how that whole working relationship is structured.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12596             MR. MICHEL:  We work with our independent producers on many different levels.  As Art mentioned ‑‑ I am not going to sit here and tell you it is a cakewalk to work with independent producers from various ethnic communities.  It is not, it is a very difficult process.  It is very difficult to find the right people, to find the right frame of mind, people that are connected to the communities that are not going to use the show as their soapbox and people that are respected by their own communities.  But we have done it and we are committed to doing that here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12597             So with respect to our licensing and our fund and how we support the independent producers, there are many different levels in terms of how we license.  The criteria for the selection is certainly third‑language programming, some English‑language programming as well but the majority of it would be third language because that is what the communities want.  We want that local reflection.  That is very important to us.  That is something that we keep hearing from the communities all the time.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12598             And again, that is why what we have done in Vancouver, we keep going, taking a lot of the Canadian acquired ‑‑ as Larisa mentioned, nobody wants to have a Ukrainian program that comes from back east and play here.  What people want to do is feel connected to their own community and find out what is going on in their community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12599             So our priority is to do third‑language programming that is local.  So that would be the priority.  From there we take a look at licensing other cross‑cultural programming as well.  That may be in a third language or it could be in English as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12600             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  How many hours of programming do you anticipate will be generated through this fund?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12601             MR. MICHEL:  At this point, we have the 10 hours that are going to be produced by the independent producers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12602             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And those 10 hours will be produced using this money exclusively?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12603             MR. MICHEL:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12604             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  Will the shows produced with these funds end up on your Vancouver schedule?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12605             MR. MICHEL:  If the programs work in Vancouver and audiences are looking for that kind of content, then absolutely.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12606             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.  Of the $4.36 million you also allocate $280,000 for the funding of educational initiatives directed at ethnic students resident of Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12607             Have you identified educational institutions in these markets that provide such educational initiatives?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12608             MR. REITMAYER:  We have had preliminary discussions with organizations such as NAIT and SAIT.  We haven't spoken with them about the magnitude of the dollars.  Again, we felt it was very preliminary but we have set up a similar type funding situation in Vancouver and we have got scholarships and a number of different types of relationships where we actually work with students.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12609             So they would receive a scholarship whether it is looking to work in the technical side of broadcasting or the journalistic and then we also encourage them that once they complete the program to actually come and spend a practicum period with the station so they can actually experience firsthand the situation that they are looking to get into and then if there is something with us, we work on that and if not, then we encourage them and work with them to try and find employment somewhere else.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12610             So I mean it is a cross and very involved working process that we have but we do offer scholarships and we have had some preliminary discussions in the market only.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12611             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  In each of Calgary and Edmonton?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12612             MR. REITMAYER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12613             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you anticipate that you will be involved in some way in selecting the students who will receive these scholarships?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12614             MR. REITMAYER:  We haven't typically.  We have been there to recognize them when they are handed the scholarship and given the cheque.  I mean we are always there to happily do that.  It is a great time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12615             But we haven't typically.  What we have set up, and really we believe that the educational institutions are the best at determining those students that are the ones that should be receiving those types of rewards.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12616             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Eighty‑six hours of ethnic; 73 hours, you say in your application, will be in a third language, which of course leaves 13 hours.  So what is the nature of these 13 hours and in what languages will they be broadcast?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12617             MR. REITMAYER:  Again, I will ask Johnny to give you the details but there is a crossover within that because again, within ethnic you could have English language as well and that would be some of the programming that is on our schedule.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12618             But perhaps, Johnny, I can get you to explain some of the different programs that are there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12619             MR. MICHEL:  What we put in our schedule right now is just some English‑language ethnic programming that is currently produced out of Vancouver.  We continuously produce programming in Vancouver and the plan is to be doing the same in both Edmonton and Calgary and utilize our facilities to their fullest capabilities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12620             The shows that we have on our schedule right now that are English language that make up the 13 hours that you were talking about, we do a cooking show.  We have done almost 360 half‑hours.  These cooking shows are ethnic cooking shows.  In each and every episode we celebrate a different culture and we have cooks that come ‑‑ and these are not chefs even though we do have a chef's edition.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12621             We did one that was all grandmas and mothers that came on.  People come on and bring costumes and they bring the flag and they bring all kinds of things from their own country and they talk about their stories from their homeland.  We think this is wonderful cross‑cultural programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12622             We also did a series on Tai Chi and Yoga.  But throughout the year ‑‑ and those would be the kind of opportunities that we would look for once we are operating in the market, as we have done in Vancouver.  I will give you an example just to illustrate what I am talking about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12623             When we go home this weekend we will be producing the Fourth Annual Chinese New Year Parade that happens in Chinatown.  Now this is the fourth year that we will be doing this and we do it in English.  It is going to be hosted by actually my Programming Manager, she is Chinese, and it is going to be hosted by a South‑Asian host that we have at the station called Turanum (phon.).  So a Punjabi and a Chinese are going to be co‑hosting and the roving reporter is going to be Spanish and we bring it in English.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12624             We get tremendous response from the community and when you watch the show you get perspective, you get relevance, you get context and understanding about the lunar new year, you understand why they give the red packets to each other, why they have new clothes, what are the traditions, what is the lunar calendar, why is this year the Year of the Pig as opposed to Year of the Dog, and that is the kind of programming that we produce.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12625             We air that ‑‑ we are going to be producing that during the day and then we turn that around and cut a one‑hour special that runs at 7:00 in prime time on Sunday.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12626             Two hours later we are going to be premiering a show that we helped support from a script concept and ultimately we went to licensing it, called "I am the Canadian Delegate."  It is the story of the first Chinese Canadian MLA, Douglas Jung, who passed away in 2003.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12627             A fascinating story about how he was born in Canada but never had the rights of a Canadian until after he went and fought in World War II.  After that he became a lawyer and actually became the first Canadian Chinese representative at the United Nations.  When he showed up at the United Nations to take his seat the usher told him, sorry, sir, this is reserved for the Canadian delegate, and Douglas Jung said, I am the Canadian delegate.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12628             So this is the story that we are going to be running on Sunday.  So that is the kind of programs that we do produce and that is the kind of programs that we want to produce here as well.  That is what we have done in Vancouver.  There are many other examples that we have done.  I can go on and on about the programs that we have produced.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12629             What you see in the schedule here right now is just what we have produced in Vancouver but we want to leave a lot of room so that we can develop programs here that tell Canadian stories, immigrant stories from both Edmonton and Calgary with local independent producers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12630             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Well it is too bad or too good for you, I don't know, that this isn't the Year of the Rat because according to Chinese astrology that is what I am.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12631             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So is it fair to say ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12632             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And we sort of agree with that around the Commission.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12633             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I set myself up.  Yeah.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 12634             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So all kidding aside, is it fair to say then that those 13 hours for the most part are English primarily focused on your cross‑cultural, cross‑generational philosophy in terms of programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12635             MR. REITMAYER:  That is what is in our current schedule.  I do want to come back to the cross‑cultural, by the way.  I don't think cross‑cultural only exists at the language level of English.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12636             One of the things that we have had that is quite exciting for Vancouver that we have seen is as more and more of our independent producers have come on line and started working with us, we have them all coming together at regular points throughout the year to try and work with them. We offer seminars and whatnot, again, because of the whole capacity‑building initiative that we believe is important in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12637             Just one example is our Romanian producer who now is out at all manner of events and reporting on things going on in the South‑Asian community in Romanian language to the Romanian community.  That also is cross‑cultural and I think it is an important aspect of the kind of the service that we offer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12638             MR. MICHEL:  If I may just add an anecdotal story.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12639             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12640             MR. MICHEL:  The producer that Art is talking about, when the Dalai Lama was in Vancouver, she was front and centre with her media pass and did an interview with him and ran it on the program as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12641             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  In terms of primetime on your schedule you show that you plan on scheduling ethnic programming from 9:00 p.m. to 11:00 p.m.  What are the advantages of scheduling ethnic programming at this time as opposed to the 8:00 to 10:00 p.m. slot, for example?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12642             MR. REITMAYER:  It is a combination.  Quite honestly, when you look at it, we feel that the 9:00 to 11:00 p.m. with the types of programming that are in there, you are going to see the Ukrainian and German communities with lifestyle combination programming in the 9:00 time block, and then at 10:00 you will see primarily news programming depending on the market you are in, whether it is in Mandarin, Punjabi, Cantonese and Hindi, which is not an inappropriate time.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12643             The other side of that is that within the Alberta community, recognizing the type of model that this is with respect to cross‑subsidization with other English programming, you do have Spokane that comes in at a different time period and it does tilt the opportunities that are available.  Under where we looked at from a revenue perspective, our opportunities with respect to repatriation and whatnot were definitely enhanced by moving to a 9:00 to 11:00 time period in this market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12644             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  We will get to the repatriation question a little bit later on but will you accept as a condition of licence that from 9:00 to 11:00 p.m. you will be 100 percent ethnic?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12645             MR. REITMAYER:  Yes, we will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12646             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  I am going to move on a little bit to the area of HD programming.  On page 19 of your application you talk about:

"...building a facility that will be a fully digital SDI plant and that the amount of HD equipment included in the facility will be determined largely by the availability at the time of the building."

(As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 12647             And that is quoted directly from your application.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12648             What is the issue with accessing HD equipment?  Is it not true that for the most part HD equipment is what is being sold by the major manufacturers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12649             MR. REITMAYER:  I may actually ask ‑‑ I will begin the answer but I will also ask Peter Gillespie maybe to come in on that one.  He has been to a number of hearings with me and hasn't had a chance to speak and I know he is just itching to get on here.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12650             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You are sure about that?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12651             MR. REITMAYER:  I am pretty sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12652             When you look at the whole migration to HD, I mean our current facility is digital and SDI, and when you look at HD equipment there is no question that as the market continues to evolve the pricing on a cross‑section of the equipment is decreasing as we go forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12653             So obviously, we would look at the most opportune time to try and invest in that kind of equipment to ensure that we are getting good quality equipment but not at a point where we can't afford it with respect to our overall business model.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12654             And Peter, maybe you would like to speak to some of the plans there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12655             MR. GILLESPIE:  Sure, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12656             Commissioner, what Art said is exactly true.  As we built the plant in Vancouver, it is built on an HD backbone and for the most part it is HD‑capable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12657             What we mean by equipment being available is there are still a very few areas that it is not cost‑effective.  Either it is not cost‑effective or the equipment simply is not there yet to be cost‑effective to buy HD.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12658             An example of that at this immediate point in time is news cameras where you would have to buy such an expensive camera for news that it wouldn't be worth buying an HD model.  That by the time we get on air may change.  Of course, technology moves at a very rapid pace.  Prices are coming down and technology is being developed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12659             So certainly it would be folly of us not to buy HD in all the areas that we can buy HD if it is available and it does make sense cost‑wise at the time to do that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12660             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So in making the statement "determined largely by the availability at the time of the building" has more to do with cost than it does with the actual equipment being available?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12661             MR. GILLESPIE:  Well, yes ‑‑ both, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12662             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  Will any of the programs on either station be in high definition or in wide screen?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12663             MR. REITMAYER:  Wide screen is certainly something that is far easier to access in the initial stages but quite honestly, it would be our desire to move to high definition as quickly as possible.  So that really would be something that we would obviously endeavour to do but obviously the 16X9 wide screen is something that would be in the plans automatically.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12664             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Automatically, being year one?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12665             MR. REITMAYER:  Year one, you would have to ‑‑ going at this point, acquiring gear that isn't 16X9 at a minimum wouldn't be wise.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12666             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You, like the other applicants in these proceedings, have applied for an analog channel for both Calgary and Edmonton.  I know you followed the TV review proceedings and you know that a considerable amount of time was spent during those proceedings in talking about digital transmission and the consequences of the U.S. shutting down analog in 2009.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12667             Do you have a digital transition plan in place for Calgary and Edmonton?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12668             MR. REITMAYER:  Our facility ‑‑ and Peter may actually get a second one here.  This is good.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12669             MR. REITMAYER:  Our facility will be digital from the outset.  Yes, we are aware and the discussion that occurred at TV policy, I think, is important and obviously we look forward to seeing the results that come forward from that with respect to how that transition will roll out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12670             In Vancouver, the transmitter that we purchased, actually it is a board switch and that transmitter switches from analog to digital.  Those are the same kinds of plans and thinking that we would deploy in Alberta depending on the type of decision that comes from the Commission with respect to analog to digital transition and what the time frame the Commission actually sees.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12671             Peter, is there anything you want to add on that?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12672             MR. GILLESPIE:  Sure, just a quick one.  We made sure also that when we applied for the NPSC frequency that the associated DTV paired channel was also available and clear of interference.  So we have done all the technical analysis on the DTV migration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12673             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And is digital transition reflected in your financial projections as filed?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12674             MR. REITMAYER:  At present the capital that would be required for an additional transmitter is not but again, we are looking at somewhere in the neighbourhood, depending ‑‑ prices continue to decrease on that.  Our last look at Vancouver was somewhere in the $250,000 range for a transmitter if we had to replicate so that we are running coincident equipment on both analog and digital.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12675             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And that 250K is not currently in the financial projections ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 12676             MR. REITMAYER:  That is correct because again, the time period was indeterminate at that time.  We know that it is coming very quickly.  It was just a question of what is coming, the awareness of TV policy and everything else with respect to ‑‑ and we knew that was a significant item that was up for discussion at the time of filing.  So we didn't reflect it.  But again, it is not a consequential number to that degree.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12677             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  Now that we are talking about the TV policy it calls to mind another question I was meaning to ask you.  I don't know if you were in the room yesterday ‑‑ you are smiling, you know what I am going to ask you.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12678             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I don't know if you were in the room yesterday when Rogers responded to the question in relation to your joint submission at the TV review wherein you asked us to consider relaxing the restriction on scheduling of ethnic programming in primetime.  I want to give you an opportunity to comment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12679             MR. REITMAYER:  Yes, I was in the room.  That was a fun presentation actually.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12680             When you look at what happened at policy, and I think Alain articulated it quite well in that it was really to highlight issues that were across the board for all broadcasters and when you look at the genre that we broadcast in, the time restrictions with respect to a hard lock on that time period is a restriction that doesn't exist for many other broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12681             That doesn't mean that we have plans that it would automatically go away in the event that we had that discussion at a future licence renewal hearing that says we would still like to see some relief.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12682             We have no plans at this point in time but sometimes the frustration that we find in programming a service such as ours is often the creativity that you can put into a programming schedule is eliminated because it really becomes a math matrix.  There are so many different things that we are required to measure up to and perform on because of conditions of licence that the actual ability to respond to the community and actually have a creative schedule that is compelling to the local community is taken away from us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12683             So I think really the intention at policy was to try and initiate that discussion that hopefully will be more fulsome down the road at licence renewal hearings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12684             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.  I just wanted to give you the opportunity to get your response on the record.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12685             I want to spend a little bit of time talking about your advisory council.  Thank you for bringing members of both here with you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12686             Just generally speaking, what is the role of this council going to be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12687             MR. REITMAYER:  I can speak very definitively about what happens in Vancouver.  The advisory council there is comprised of members of a cross‑section of the community.  They meet three to four times a year and that is at their determination.  There is a separate chair.  You saw Dr. Saida Rasul on the screen.  She has been our chair pretty much since inception of channel m in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12688             They receive reports from the station with respect to our community initiatives, our programming initiatives, every six weeks.  So we have to say that the contact face‑to‑face is three to four times a year.  There is continuous contact, you know, technology nowadays.  Dr. Rasul is with her husband working in Pakistan, in Karachi.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12689             So oftentimes we are communicating by email with the entire advisory council but we are updating them on our plans and the initiatives that are under way in the community, the program changes that we are contemplating.  We have feedback from the council and the input from the advisory council is taken very seriously.  We have initiated a number of changes in our programming because of advice that came back from that council.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12690             We see that same kind of structure and situation in Calgary and Edmonton and that is why in our estimation we had to have advisory councils and we tried to establish them early on so they could feed into this process for us as well.  But they guide us in the program decisions that we make, the community initiatives that we undertake, all very important aspects of the type of station that we operate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12691             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  What is your criteria for the selection of the members?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12692             MR. REITMAYER:  It is a combination, quite honestly.  We look to the advisory to also determine who is on the advisory.  It is not something where we just select those members.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12693             They look at ‑‑ they are aware of what the requirements of the service are and then there is a determination to invite additional members onto the advisory to ensure that we are properly representing the communities that are in the market and that they are properly representing back to us what is happening in the market.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12694             So it really is not just us appointing individuals.  It mostly operates to some degree as a separate board and they actually select members.  We will put forward names that have expressed an interest and then the advisory actually determines the new members that would go on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12695             In the case of Calgary and Edmonton we spoke with a number of individuals and invited them on but that really was for an establishment phase and then it really becomes ‑‑ the dynamic becomes that separate advisory council board, if you like.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12696             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.  Okay.  So we spent part of the morning talking about how you are going to spend your money.  So now we are going to move on to how you are going to make your money.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12697             In your financial projections you anticipate that 52 percent of your advertising revenues will come from existing off‑air stations and you say that includes the repatriation of advertising expenditures currently targeted to the four U.S. border stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12698             To your knowledge, do you know whether or not the Spokane, Washington stations have sales representatives in Edmonton and Calgary?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12699             MR. HAMLIN:  The belief is that there is definitely representation in Canada for those stations.  As a matter of fact, Mr. Burko, who is our National Representative with Airtime Television Sales, previously did represent, if not one, a number of services in Toronto.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12700             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  In Toronto?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12701             MR. HAMLIN:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12702             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you have any idea as to what the amount of both local and/or national advertising is currently lost to these stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12703             MR. HAMLIN:  The estimates that we have got through Mr. Burko is that there is a range.  We don't have a definitive hard number but the estimates are somewhere around 3‑5 percent of each of the Calgary and Edmonton markets can migrate to these four services out of Spokane.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12704             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  How much of the 52 percent of revenue that you anticipate coming from existing off‑air, how much of that 52 percent do you anticipate will come from repatriating advertising revenues from the Spokane stations?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12705             MR. HAMLIN:  Our calculations are somewhere in the area of about $1.8 million per market would come to Calgary and Edmonton.  It would represent about 25 percent, give or take, depending on the exact revenue calculation, but about 25 percent of our revenue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12706             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Of your total revenue ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12707             MR. HAMLIN:  Yes, that is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12708             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  ‑‑ not just of the 52 percent?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12709             MR. HAMLIN:  That is right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12710             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay, thank you.  Excuse us for just a second.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12711             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I was taking notes.  What percentage was it of the total of your revenues, the $1.8 million?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12712             MR. HAMLIN:  Approximately 25.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12713             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  Sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12714             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You know, Barb, we have transcripts here.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12715             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Since when do we interrupt each other?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 12716             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  We warned you we were in a good mood when we started.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12717             You project that $6.76 million will come from English‑language programming aired in Calgary and $5.94 million in Edmonton and you did confirm that these projections are based on 40 hours of U.S. programming on your schedule.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12718             The $6.76 million to come from English‑language programming, is that the 40 hours of U.S.?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12719             MR. HAMLIN:  To be honest, the number of hours that I am calculating in the financial projections are closer to about 47‑48 but they are not all U.S. programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12720             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  In the English‑language programming component?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12721             MR. HAMLIN:  Yes.  There are some programs that have subtitling, in particular movies, that are revenue opportunities and they have been for us at channel m in Vancouver.  So those are in that calculation as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12722             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So you anticipate that if you have language movies with English subtitles or English movies with language subtitles?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12723             MR. HAMLIN:  Language movies with English subtitles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12724             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Will generate the same level of revenue as your U.S. programming and that is why they are included?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12725             MR. HAMLIN:  They won't necessarily generate the same revenue.  It depends on whether those English programs are running in primetime or in fringe time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12726             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12727             MR. HAMLIN:  But they generate some rating points in the market which then that is what the community will buy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12728             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  In terms of revenues from third‑language programming, which language groups do you expect to play a significant role in generating that revenue?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12729             MR. HAMLIN:  The main language communities that we see that will be the easiest to develop in the first stages are going to be the Cantonese, Mandarin, Hindi and Punjabi because those are already established communities in many other markets, especially Toronto and Vancouver, and we think that the opportunity from both a local/regional perspective as well as a national perspective will be easier because the bulk of creative that has been developed for those communities can migrate into those communities a lot easier.  So we see that as being a larger percentage of the ethnic sales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12730             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  In your detailed financial projections I notice that you don't provide us with any revenue figures for 6:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m.  In fact, your day part starts at 1:00 p.m. with no revenue allocated to 6:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12731             MR. HAMLIN:  Yes, there will be some revenue there.  We haven't calculated it in because we don't see it as being a significant part of the revenue stream there but obviously there are a number of hours on our schedule that aren't represented on there as well and those are principally our third‑language opportunities, some of our third‑language opportunities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12732             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And those would be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12733             MR. HAMLIN:  From the program schedule in the morning ‑‑ Johnny, could you give us a hand on the programs in the morning?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12734             MR. MICHEL:  Sure.  I guess you would be talking about some of the third‑language programming that we would have.  Tai Chi and Yoga, that would be certainly ‑‑ sorry, in the English language.  But some of the Spanish, Vietnamese, Swedish, those types of programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12735             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So you anticipate that while they will play a role in your schedule they will not play a role in significantly generating advertising revenues for you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12736             MR. HAMLIN:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12737             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  On page 28 of the Deloitte Touche report it says that:

"Multivan's established sales force, distribution network and valuable relationships with western Canada's advertisers could be leveraged, allowing for synergies and selling airtime on the proposed TV stations."

(As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 12738             What are the synergies that you anticipate in the selling of airtime?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12739             MR. HAMLIN:  Well in particular over the last three and a half years the relationships that we have built with the agency community as well as the significant advertising community about the opportunity to reach out and be more inclusive in their advertising strategy has been developed by the station both nationally and locally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12740             So we see this as a very positive approach to the overall advertising community as a way that we have gained a lot of knowledge, we have done a lot of research, we have been able to quantify and qualify the opportunity about them building their business because at the end of the day that is what advertising really is all about.  It is about why is the Ukrainian or the German or the Polish or the whatever community significant to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12741             We have been able to demonstrate that through our Ipsos Reid research, through our target analysis, our target market analysis of what communities are representative around a certain trade area and this has been very significant in allowing them to have more credibility and more accountability in putting and in placing money into these types of directions because at the end of the day if they don't have measurability and they don't have the confidence that these actual audiences are watching our programming, then there is really no transaction that is going to take place there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12742             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Will you have a sales force and traffic department in each of the three markets?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12743             MR. HAMLIN:  The plan is to have two distinct sales forces in both Edmonton and Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12744             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12745             MR. HAMLIN:  The traffic department, I believe, would be centralized out of Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12746             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  One of the things that struck me in that quote was, of course, relationships with western Canada's advertisers.  Are these primarily local?  Were they referring primarily to local advertisers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12747             MR. HAMLIN:  Well, not necessarily just the local advertisers.  I spend a great deal of time in both Toronto and Montreal as well as in Vancouver because of the concentration of where advertising dollars actually come out of.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12748             Edmonton, for instance, The Brick's home office, I go up to Edmonton and talk to the advertising people at The Brick about their decision‑making process.  So it really varies as to where those head offices are and where those decision‑makers are that are educating that strategy.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12749             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I also ask this because the Callaghan‑Osborne report says that it interviewed "key decision‑makers, marketers, agency management, media planners or media buyers" and that 26 percent of those interviewees are based in Manitoba, Alberta and B.C., and 74 percent are based in Montreal, Ontario and Toronto.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12750             So I am just trying to get a handle on who are these western Canadian advertisers and what are the advantages that therefore you bring in having this relationship with these advertisers in light of who the Callaghan‑Osborne report interviewed in order to gather data for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12751             MR. HAMLIN:  Okay.  What I believe Janet Callaghan was getting at was that there is obviously a concentration of media buyers in the Toronto/Montreal region but there are also agencies and advertisers that don't reside in Toronto and Montreal and are obviously in either Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver and other areas.  But there is obviously an imbalance in that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12752             You can see that with the numbers there is a concentration towards Toronto.  It doesn't mean that there isn't in Vancouver.  There is a significant agency community in Vancouver as well as Calgary as well as in Edmonton, as well as a local advertising community here as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12753             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay, thank you.  As you know, one intervenor, namely, CanWest stated that:

"Applicants have grossly understated their impact on both the Calgary and Edmonton markets in their application." (As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 12754             I did say "applicants," not just you.

"CHUM in its intervention anticipates that the majority of the impact will be borne by the CHUM station since it isn't likely that ethnic stations such as the one proposed by MVBC would go after the top 20 U.S. shows such as those on Global and CTV."

(As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 12755             Would you care to comment?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12756             MR. REITMAYER:  Yes, I think oftentimes it is interesting when you see the size and scope of these organizations intervening that there is going to be significant impact.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12757             We truly believe ‑‑ I think Bruce has articulated quite well the level of revenue that we will be able to repatriate.  When you break down the revenues that will be derived from the local stations in the market, you are talking in the order of ‑‑ if it is shared evenly, and it may be skewed slightly one way or the other but there are always opportunities to suggest that it is only top 20.  Top 20 for CanWest or CTV exists in the primetime block U.S. scheduling that they are acquiring, so there are also daytime opportunities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12758             If you look at the nature of our schedule it actually has got fringe properties as well.  So when you look at it and the impact on those types of organizations, if you look at it in pure dollar terms it is somewhere around $400,000 to $500,000 per station.  I would like to think that that is not going to take down Global or CTV in the near future.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12759             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.  Rogers in its intervention has said that:

"MVBC has failed to discount cost per rating point assumptions by between 30 and 40 percent, consistent with what Rogers feels is appropriate for ethnic TV stations and that this has resulted in a significant overestimate of projected revenues." (As read)


LISTNUM 1 \l 12760             MR. REITMAYER:  I realize this isn't intervention or reply phase but since it was raised in that fashion I would note back that it is interesting that in Rogers' submission, under assumptions for revenue one would think that a key assumption would be that discount factor that is in place and it is not mentioned or noted anywhere in their application.  It is only raised at the time that you can actually see that the revenues are significantly understated for their application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12761             We did extensive research and when you look at even the Vancouver application it was never mentioned there in the competitive hearing when we went through that with Rogers as well, nor did we experience that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12762             In Vancouver we sell at the market rate.  We are not the high ‑‑ we are not the market leader, I would not suggest that, but we do sell at market rate.  We are not looking to take down the market and we did extensive research in Calgary and Edmonton to ensure that the rate that we went forward with was the rate that was reflected in the market.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12763             We have documentation that supports our rate and I think, in fact, the Commission has that type of documentation already on file, in fact, with one of the applicants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12764             When you look at the cost per rating point that was advanced by CanWest in its application to bring CH into Calgary and Edmonton, the rate is in fact higher than our net rate in our proposal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12765             So I would suggest that in some cases that kind of submission may be just a lot of mischief and in fact that they may be understating what in fact ‑‑ and I think CanWest has suggested that ‑‑ in fact understating the revenues that they will achieve and succeed in achieving in this market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12766             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So it has not been your experience that in Vancouver you discounted your CPRs by 30 or 40 percent or anything even less than 30 percent?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12767             MR. REITMAYER:  No, it hasn't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12768             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  In the Rogers intervention they also state that you have not taken into account a 15 percent reduction of projected revenues, consistent with agency commissions.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12769             MR. REITMAYER:  I think if you look at ‑‑ in sometimes assembling an application it is often a process where you are dealing with so many different documents, I will agree that on the top caption there it says gross and it should say net but the number and the extension and the calculation that is there and the rate that is used is in fact the correct rate, and in fact, again, it is lower than the rate in net dollar terms that is in the submission that CanWest has on record at this proceeding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12770             So if you look at that error ‑‑ and I am happy to point out errors in everyone else's application with respect to typos as well but if you look at it, the only error that only exists there is in the captioning, not in the quantum.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12771             The dollars that we have submitted with our application, we stand by those.  We feel strongly about those.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12772             I worked in this market a number of years ago, in fact, scary, 10 years ago, and the rates that we achieved at that time ‑‑ and we were selling Red Deer at that time because there was a different kind of situation in the market but we were able to sell into Calgary and Edmonton at that time.  The rates we achieved at that time ‑‑ we are talking 10 years ago ‑‑ are close to what Rogers has submitted in their application today.  I suggest that those rates have increased.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12773             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you very much.  I will move on very quickly to the issue of channel allocation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12774             You have proposed the use of channel 38 in Calgary, channel 45 in Edmonton.  In light of the fact that other channels have been identified by other applicants in this proceeding, would you consider using alternative channels?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12775             MR. REITMAYER:  It looks like Peter gets lucky No. 3.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12776             MR. REITMAYER:  We have done extensive investigation to determine the available channels in both markets and we have determined that those really are the best.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12777             And perhaps, Peter, I can get you to expand on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12778             MR. GILLESPIE:  Thank you, Art.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12779             I can give you the long story or the short story.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12780             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  It is your first time, you choose.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12781             MR. GILLESPIE:  I will start with the short one and if you want more information, please ask.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12782             We worked with a technical consultant and we believe that over‑the‑air NTSC analog frequencies are in scarce demand in these two markets.  So we believe that there are no other NTSC frequencies we could go for that would be made available to us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12783             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Well that is pretty clear, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12784             Shaw in its intervention has stated that any new licensee must waive its right under the BDU Regulations to distribution on the basic band on a non‑restricted channel and I wanted to give you the opportunity to comment on that intervention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12785             MR. REITMAYER:  All these fun topics.  Again, I look at it ‑‑ it is interesting.  I haven't seen that the Broadcast Distribution Regulations have been withdrawn, so it is interesting that they would request that we withdraw our entitlement to priority carriage and basic band.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12786             I think when you look at what local broadcasters offer, and I think that was really ‑‑ when you look at why these Regulations were put in place, the premise on which that was formed was that local broadcasters need to be situated in a channel where viewers can easily access them.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12787             There is a significant service that we provide to the community and there is a significant investment that we make into the community and to suggest that it would be overly disruptive to somehow move a U.S. service to a different level, I would suggest is, again, a lot of mischief.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12788             I have experienced in Vancouver ‑‑ I am not sure why they would suggest that putting any localized Canadian service would be overly disruptive when just recently they went through an entire channel realignment so that they could bring one of the Corus services onto basic band from digital and removed CNBC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12789             So it is an interesting issue when they raise it in that light that for us to be granted that kind of carriage and entitlement is disruptive but a service that they partially own isn't disruptive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12790             I think we would be happy to dialogue on it.  I would suggest that if it is framed in the fashion that it be an equal negotiation ‑‑ I would suggest that it isn't, we are in no way equal.  I mean it is far more the whale and the minnow and I would suggest that we are the minnow in that case.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12791             So we would request that the entitlement to priority carriage be there but we would be open to discussing it and exploring with them what their thoughts are on that matter.  But it certainly wouldn't be in anyone's best interest, neither ours, nor the communities, for us to find ourselves placed on channel 300.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12792             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.  Last line of questioning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12793             Again, if you were in the room yesterday you are probably anticipating this.  Is it fair to assume that you built your business plan on the assumption that you would be the only one licensed in each market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12794             MR. REITMAYER:  Yes, and that said, there are obviously different impacts from different applicants to this hearing and you can go through them all.  I mean when you look at it, I think a service such as ours relies on certain amounts of foreign programming to support the overall model.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12795             I think, as you have heard from us and other applicants previous, the ethnic advertising market is an evolving one.  We have worked very hard to ensure that it continues to develop and evolve.  We undertake proprietary research every year to ensure that advertisers can feel comfortable because that has been a comment, that there isn't sufficient research, and the measurement organizations certainly aren't undertaking that of their own volition.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12796             So when you look at that as your primary source for funding your operation and making it whole and being able to provide the services, on the other hand, that you are looking to provide, any applicant that is here that is looking to basically receive funding from that same stream is going to have an impact on our business plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12797             One could suggest that The Miracle Channel would be least impactful but again you have to look down the road, that applying for a digital service today is applying for the service where we will all be down the road.  And then it really is the determinant of what will that service look like once it is there, will it modify to become something that also runs U.S. syndicated programs?  We don't know but that would definitely be the least impactful of the applicants at this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12798             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And in your opinion, is each market robust enough to sustain the licensing of one of the religious services, one of the ethnic services and grant CanWest their request?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12799             MR. REITMAYER:  I can probably make that a fairly short answer, I would suggest not.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12800             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  If we in our wisdom ‑‑ we love to use that phrase too ‑‑ decided that either market, we shouldn't license anything in one of the markets but license Calgary only, for example ‑‑ this is a severability question ‑‑ which of the two would you prefer?  In other words, would you prefer the Calgary market or would you prefer the Edmonton market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12801             MR. REITMAYER:  Is there a third door?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12802             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Red Deer.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12803             MR. REITMAYER:  I was going to say if I can go to Red Deer and start from there again, who knows?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12804             MR. REITMAYER:  I think our preference ‑‑ in the application that we filed we hope that from your review you have got an appreciation for the amount of work and care that we have put into this.  We have undertaken the research and provided the support for what we look to offer in the markets of Calgary and Edmonton.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12805             If it was determined that only one market was to receive the service, I would feel sorry for the market that doesn't.  Our consultations indicated that both markets have strong communities that are looking to have our type of service brought in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12806             We met with the economic development offices.  So it wasn't just the ethnic communities but the economic development offices in both markets and if you go to our supplementary brief, they are both quoted there.  For those organizations to say, yes, we encourage you, please come into our communities, we think it is important, so do we.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12807             We believe it is important that both markets receive that service and it would be difficult to suggest that the application that we have is just take any one and that would be a model that would fit.  We would have to go back and revisit the business plans that were submitted with this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12808             So we hope that in the Commission's wisdom that they will see that it is really best to license for both markets and that both markets really deserve a service such as channel m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12809             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Well, Mr. Reitmayer and to your panel, thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12810             Mr. Chairman, thank you, those are my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12811             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Cugini.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12812             Commissioner Cram will ask you some questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12813             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12814             I would like to probe a little further on this revenue issue and the discount.  You say, Mr. Reitmayer, that you don't discount in Vancouver.  Would it be fair to say though that if you had it to do over again you would have discounted for the first year of operation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12815             MR. REITMAYER:  That is an interesting question.  I am hoping we do have it to do over again in Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12816             No.  I think when you go into a market ‑‑ and when we went into Vancouver, I mean there is a period of time that you have to look at and go it is much more difficult to move an advertiser that has come to your service up after they have invested in your service in the second year than to sit there and ensure that you are supporting the market rate in year one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12817             We did that in year one in Vancouver.  I have no regrets.  We would look to do that and that is reflected in our business plan for Calgary and Edmonton as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12818             Increases to take a rate down by 50 and 60 percent and then assume that the advertiser next year is going to move up, I haven't experienced that in my years in broadcasting and they are getting significant at this point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12819             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Well I am looking at your confidential data in terms of your gross income and I am going to suggest to you that that is your experience.  Based on the year ending 2004‑2005 there was a substantial increase in your gross income.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12820             So then I go to the letter that is attached to Rogers ‑‑ and if you look at your results you will find that.  I go to the letter that Rogers attached from MBS to their reply to CanWest intervention, the last paragraph.  Ms Shelton with MBS says at the last paragraph:

"The stations will be entering the market with no track record and unproven ratings.  There will a lack of high‑profile programming." (As read)


LISTNUM 1 \l 12821             Wouldn't you accept that as a rationale for initially there being lower gross income?  Because what you are doing in year one and two in your projections is you are looking at an increase of a million gross income and that is not what happened with channel m.  So would it not be fair to say there should be a discount, at least in the first year?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12822             MR. REITMAYER:  I don't know which point you wish me to speak to first.  I can speak to the Vancouver situation if you like ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12823             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12824             MR. REITMAYER:  ‑‑ because the Vancouver market when we were licensed was predicated on certain situations and we have been before the Commission on this issue a number of times.  When you look at it, there is an additional service operating in that market and it has only changed recently again when Omni acquired a religious service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12825             A religious service is expected to affect the market in a certain fashion and that is negligible.  So when you look at what is happening out there you now have a "religious" service that really is offering an extensive line‑up of U.S. syndicated programming that has affected the market.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12826             So to suggest that that is a reason that we should discount, I would disagree.  We reflect in our business plan in Calgary and Edmonton growth from year one to year two that is significant and that reflects the fact that there will be an uptake because the sellout factors and the success of the station with viewers and everything else will improve a station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12827             To suggest that there is no proven track record ‑‑ there is an impact to a station that has no track record in the market and that is why it does grow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12828             The other factor though is every year stations have programming that has no track record.  That is a standard operating procedure for television.  We come into a market ‑‑ and in our case actually it is even less so because we tend to buy syndicated programming that most advertisers are quite comfortable with.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12829             So when you go forward and say ‑‑ I think yesterday you spoke that "Law and Order," I believe, was one of your favourite programs.  Well going back to Helena back at MBS and suggesting that she doesn't know what "Law and Order" is, she does and she will buy that program because she does know what it is and typically what it can do.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12830             But that said, again, to suggest that everything has to have a proven track record would suggest that every new program that is ever introduced into the market would sell for nothing and it doesn't.  What you try and do is put estimates against it and you sell to those estimates and then you sell based on the cost per rating point in that market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12831             That is the business we are in.  Sometimes it is a little bit of this and a little bit of that but that is how it works and that is the experience we have had in Vancouver and we believe that we are correct.  And again, we do have documentation.  I am not going to suggest that MBS purchases airtime at the top of the market but there are a number of buyers that make a market and MBS is but one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12832             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So what is different about the Vancouver market?  You say it is because there is, I am going to call it a near‑ethnic station in the market, but that doesn't explain why your gross revenues from your first full year of operation to your second full year of operation went up about 33 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12833             How can you distinguish that situation, an increase in revenues between year one and two, with the market in Calgary or Edmonton when you have not done that, you have started off high?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12834             MR. REITMAYER:  No, we started off ‑‑ you see, the fact in Vancouver when you look at that growth and the revenue ‑‑ and I just want to come back, it is not a near‑ethnic service, it is a U.S. syndicated service, that other service we are talking about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12835             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12836             MR. REITMAYER:  So I want to be very clear on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12837             The revenue growth in Vancouver ‑‑ I mean there are a couple of things that come into play.  In Vancouver we had that growth because, again, there was an anticipated ‑‑ when you look at it, we held the rate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12838             It was important for us that we not go in and discount the rate, to sit there and basically come back to the agencies next year and try to move them up, because the interesting thing that would have really answered the second part of the question is to ask Ms Shelton from MBS, what would happen if I sold to you this year at $102 and came at you next year and said I want $180 a point, I would suggest that she would laugh and not buy.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12839             So when you look at it, in Vancouver we accepted the fact that we may have sellout factors that vary from what were planned to maintain that rate and move forward.  We were a new company operating in the market and we were also sitting there with no track record for establishing, first off, whether we could acquire the programming, whether or not ethnic broadcasting was anything that would really work in the markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12840             There was no proprietary research.  I mean many of the discussions that we had early on with the advertising community, that was one of the frustrations that they told us.  That is why we have committed to doing research every single year that supports the business model that we have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12841             So when you come to that, coming into Calgary and Edmonton, we are a different company.  We have got a proven track record.  We have been in existence and operated for four years.  So there is a difference between operating here and when we started up in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12842             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay, I get your distinction.  I have got that now, that you have established your track record and so you have got your reputation already.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12843             Okay, what about ‑‑ and maybe you should ‑‑ if you have got that with you I would like to address her third paragraph in her letter.  Have you got the interventions with you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12844             MR. REITMAYER:  I'm sorry, the letter from?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12845             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  This again, Ms Shelton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12846             MR. REITMAYER:  That wasn't submitted to us, so I am sorry, I don't have a copy of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12847             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  It is in the reply to interventions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12848             MR. REITMAYER:  The reply submitted by Rogers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12849             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes, to CanWest though.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12850             MR. REITMAYER:  Yes.  I didn't receive a copy of that, sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12851             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  Well then I will ask you to look at that paragraph.  The paragraph starts:

"We also reviewed Deloitte and Touche's report." (As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 12852             I would like you to provide us with your reply to that, I would ask, in Phase II.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12853             MR. REITMAYER:  Certainly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12854             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Because it is on the public record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12855             MR. REITMAYER:  I am more than happy to do that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12856             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  Mm‑hmm.  Now your projections, were they also predicated upon DTH coverage ‑‑ carriage?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12857             MR. REITMAYER:  No.  We have been somewhat frustrated in Vancouver with our inability to secure appropriate DTH carriage.  So while we would hope that would be the case for our services in Calgary and Edmonton because when you look at comparable services ‑‑ and it was something, again, that we spoke of at the policy hearing ‑‑ we felt it would have been difficult to anticipate that into our revenue projections for this market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12858             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Mm‑hmm.  And the markets are different, Vancouver, and Calgary and Edmonton, notably in the absence of, as you call it, a U.S. syndicated programming entity and so thus you are, in fact, more optimistic about Edmonton and Calgary; is that fair to say?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12859             MR. REITMAYER:  I am not sure I understand the point on U.S. syndicated.  There is a U.S. service that comes in.  It comes in on a time‑shifted basis and I think, in fact, when we were in the discussion earlier we reflected that in our business model.  So I think that that is part of what we have anticipated.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12860             There are U.S. services that come in and there are opportunities for simulcast and we have anticipated that, and the whole issue of 9:00 to 11:00 was part of our foundational planning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12861             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  I couldn't find it in the application but in our factum it says that your 6 hours in Cantonese in Edmonton and your 6 hours in Mandarin in Calgary will be in a cross‑generational format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12862             Is it right that that is what you are saying and what does it mean?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12863             MR. REITMAYER:  I am going to ask Johnny to also speak to this one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12864             I think it was really just that we are looking to address programming as we have found in Vancouver ‑‑ we have heard the stories reflected back to us a number of times where our Punjabi news, the entire family sits down to view the programming.  So we look at that as another opportunity for families to come together.  Language is a reason to celebrate and come together and we found that.  The Punjabi community has expressed that to us a number of times, as have the Cantonese and Mandarin communities.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12865             I just go to the Punjabi because we do our news in Vancouver in Punjabi and it is interesting to note that we have enormous, 80+, share because of that and it really is a coming together for the family because of that factor.  So that was really, I believe, what we were trying to get at with that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12866             Johnny, is there anything?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12867             MR. MICHEL:  Mr. Reitmayer, once again, so eloquently described it that he really leaves me nothing to add.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12868             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12869             Ms Sembaliuk, you were talking about immersion in Edmonton with the Edmonton schools being in seven different languages.  What languages are they?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12870             MS SEMBALIUK:  I will just refer to my notes.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 12871             MS SEMBALIUK:  Currently there are seven different languages in addition to French that are being offered from kindergarten to grade 12.  They include Ukrainian, which was the first, followed by German, Mandarin, Hebrew, Spanish, Arabic and Cree.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12872             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12873             Thank you, Mr. Chair.  Thank you, panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12874             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12875             I have one last question for you, Mr. Reitmayer.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12876             When we discussed visible broadcast, I think ‑‑ did you say that you are planning your ‑‑ where will your master control be located?  Will you have a centralized unit, say, in Vancouver and do the on‑air for Calgary and Edmonton from Vancouver or will you have an on‑air master control in each of the locations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12877             MR. REITMAYER:  It is interesting when you start looking at what is evolving in technology, our planning was that it would be a centralized master control emanating from Vancouver.  We did build the station with the capacity and the intention that hopefully at some point in the future we would add additional services but when you look at technology as it is evolving, it may be a different kind of model, again.  But our intention would be to use a centralized master control, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12878             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Our legal counsel has a few questions for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12879             MR. McCALLUM:  That is right, just very briefly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12880             Earlier, Commissioner Cugini, I think, was attempting to design a condition of licence around the 40 hours of non‑Canadian English‑language programming that you used in your projections.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12881             So if the Commission were inclined to impose such a condition of licence, that a maximum of 40 hours per week of non‑Canadian English‑language programming be in your schedule, would you have a problem with such a condition?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12882             MR. REITMAYER:  I think that would not reflect the opportunities that are actually there for a service such as ours because if the intention of that is to look at U.S. syndicated programming, I would certainly hope the condition wouldn't be put in place to protect other broadcasters from us.  I am not certain that they really need that protection, in all honesty.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12883             The other reason is that when you look at foreign programming, because the classification within the Regs is not U.S., it is foreign, and we do offer a number of foreign movies, dramas and whatnot to the community, and those also come out of that count.  So when you look at our schedule as it currently is proposed for Calgary and Edmonton, it does include those kinds of opportunities.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12884             So when you start taking back from all of that, it would make it a very difficult model to operate if the condition was imposed at something different than the 40 percent overall foreign that is contemplated under the Regs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12885             MR. McCALLUM:  Well if I asked the question and used 50 hours, would the answer be the same?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12886             MR. REITMAYER:  I believe 50 hours is close to the 40 percent, so we would accept that condition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12887             MR. McCALLUM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12888             Secondly, in its written intervention Fairchild suggested there be a maximum of Chinese‑language programming and impose a condition of licence and it proposed 7.1 percent maximum of Chinese‑language programming.  Could that be imposed as a condition if the Commission were so inclined?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12889             MR. REITMAYER:  I could be glib and say I guess the Commission could but I prefer they not.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12890             When you look at conditions, again, I look at the licensing that has happened within the past year and you have seen a number of foreign services and foreign‑language services come in and specifically you have seen the licensing of, I think, in excess of, just recently, nine services from China, and by limiting a Canadian service that is trying to reflect back its community in language and saying that we impose caps on those services, while at the same time encouraging the entry of services that don't reflect any of those local communities, one would have to question what the intention would be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12891             I understand that Fairchild would look to seek protection but I certainly don't think they need protection from us.  They have a higher opportunity to program foreign language than we do.  We have a very high local Canadian content commitment.  We also have a very high level of service and commitment to multiple languages.  We cannot become a competitive threat in one single language to Fairchild.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12892             All of that said, I think if there is a determination on the part of the Commission to impose a condition on channel m that it should be something that reflects overall the types of conditions that have been put in place on other services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12893             Seven percent would seem extremely low and based on a proposed schedule that you see currently would allow no flexibility to respond to the community.  I think part of what we have discussed here today is the fact that our service is responsive and it is reflective and it is local and we need to have at least some flexibility as programmers and television service providers to respond to those communities.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12894             So I would look at something ‑‑ if you are determined to go there, I would hope that it is something that reflects what was done back in the Ontario market.  You are looking at, I think, 15 percent by language, not language groupings because language groupings can be very difficult to limit in that fashion as well because surprisingly sometimes there are a lot of languages that get caught up in that one grouping.  But if 15 percent is the starting point, I think that is a reasonable approach.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12895             MR. McCALLUM:  That would be 15 percent for Chinese or 15 percent separately for Cantonese and Mandarin?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12896             MR. REITMAYER:  The conditions that were imposed in Ontario were Cantonese ‑‑ by language, Cantonese, Mandarin, as opposed to by language groups, because again, language groups ‑‑ I mean Cantonese and Mandarin are distinct and we have heard that expressed a number of times in the Vancouver market and we actually applied to the Commission to try and have some relief on the 20 hours that is there because we are unable to respond to the desires of members of our community, and still, we are far below any kind of threat that would be in place for Fairchild, who has the opportunity, interestingly enough, as a specialty service to do local programming and local advertising.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12897             So when you look at it, at some point we need to support services that are operating locally and providing the kind of service that we do, that is multicultural.  We are not single‑language specific.  So I would hope that in the Commission's wisdom they would see that language caps on our service are really not required.  We are not the threat.  We haven't proven to be.  We have enhanced the market.  We do research.  We do a lot of good things and hopefully that will be encouraged.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12898             MR. McCALLUM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12899             Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12900             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. McCallum.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12901             Now, Mr. Reitmayer, Mr. Lee or anyone of your team, you have two minutes to tell us why the Commission should grant you the licences you have applied for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12902             MR. REITMAYER:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12903             I am going to take the liberty of closing and I hope that I can keep myself to two minutes.  If not, please don't shut me off.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 12904             MR. REITMAYER:  When I think about the channel m applications that we have presented here for Calgary and Edmonton, I think of four words and they mean a lot more than those four words but they come to mind.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12905             And it is commitment, commitment on the part of our partnership group.  We are committed to growing this television service that we started in Vancouver and our partners have indicated to you that they are committed to the investment that is required and committed to staying with broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12906             There were many that when Vancouver was licensed questioned our commitment to the type of landscape and broadcasting that we were entering and we have proven ourselves.  We have been there on the air now coming up on four years, operating for five.  Commitment at the level of the partnership.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12907             Commitment on the part of our staff.  Our staff every day come in and work very enthusiastically.  You saw the video there.  This is just a small part of what we do every day at channel m to ensure that we are offering the highest‑quality programming and production that reflects our local communities.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12908             When we were coming here to do our presentation to the Commission, we almost felt like we were the team that was going out to win the big game.  We had our staff coming up to us all and congratulating us and wishing us the best of success when we were in Alberta and that is a kind of special place and that is commitment to the kind of service that we provide.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12909             Passion.  We are passionate.  I hope you have gotten that from listening to us today.  We definitely can get enthusiastic about the business of broadcasting and the business of ethnic broadcasting and multicultural broadcasting and that is reflected from our partnership group right through the entire organization.  And we are also committed to community and that is reflected from our partnership group right through the entire organization.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12910             The other word is experience.  We have heard experience thrown out a number of times and it was flashed on the screen even yesterday and to suggest that experience is 25 years of one type of experience, you could suggest that is really just one experience 25 times over.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12911             Our group has had experience.  We have all worked in broadcast operations in different parts of the country and for different kinds of companies, in radio, in specialty, in conventional broadcasting for dominant news organizations and maybe for wannabe news organizations but we have had a vast amount of experience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12912             We mentioned that there are 115 years of experience and I think that is just the limited number of people here at this table.  If you go through our organization in Vancouver it is even higher.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12913             We also have experience living lives of individuals and children of individuals that came to Canada and that is also an important experience and you don't just get that being in broadcasting, you get that living and walking around every day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12914             The other word is trust.  Four or five years ago when the ownership group for channel m appeared before you they asked for trust.  You invested in that.  You gave them the licence for Vancouver and they have lived up to that.  The promises and commitments that were made have been exceeded in every, every single way.  We work with more languages, we work with more independent producers, we provide more local programming than was committed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12915             We have a facility in Vancouver that is state‑of‑the‑art.  We have had broadcasters from other services in Canada come to our facility to see how we put that facility together.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12916             You invested.  You trusted.  We ask again for that trust.  We are a passionate and committed group of broadcasters and we believe that we can do the right job for Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12917             Thank you for your time, we appreciate it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12918             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Reitmayer.  Thank you, Mr. Lee.  Thank you to all the members of your panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12919             We will take a 15‑minute break.  We will be back at five past 11:00 for the last item.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1050 / Suspension à 1050

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1110 / Reprise à 1110

LISTNUM 1 \l 12920             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  A l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12921             Mrs. Secretary, could you introduce the next item.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12922             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12923             For the record, The Miracle Channel has filed seven‑year projections for their Calgary and Edmonton applications as well as a clarification on their program schedule, Appendix 5A to their application.  These documents are available for review in the examination room.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12924             We will now proceed with items 9 and 10 on the agenda, which are applications by CanWest MediaWorks Inc. to amend the licence of the television programming undertaking CHCA‑TV, Red Deer, Alberta.  The licensee proposes to add TV transmitters in Calgary and Edmonton to broadcast the programming of CHCA‑TV, Red Deer, in order to serve the population of Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12925             The transmitter in Calgary would operate on channel 38 with an effective radiated power of 76,000 watts (non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 206 metres) and the transmitter in Edmonton would operate on channel 17 with an effective radiated power of 92,000 watts (non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 232 metres).

LISTNUM 1 \l 12926             Appearing for the applicant is Ms Kathy Dore who will introduce her colleagues.  You will then have 30 minutes to make your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12927             Mrs. Dore.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12928             MS DORE:  Thank you.  Good morning, Chairman Arpin, commissioners and Commission staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12929             My name is Kathy Dore and I am President of Television and Radio for CanWest MediaWorks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12930             I will begin today by introducing our panel.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12931             To my immediate left is Barbara Williams, Senior Vice‑President of Programming and Production.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12932             To my immediate right is Charlotte Bell, Vice‑President of Regulatory Affairs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12933             Next to her is Stan Schmidt, General Manager and General Sales Manager of CHCA.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12934             And sitting next to Stan is Chris McGinley, Senior Vice‑President of Station Operations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12935             In the row behind us, starting from my far right, your left, is Brett Manlove, Senior Vice‑President of Broadcast Sales and Marketing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12936             Next to him is David Rathan, Research Manager for our Television Operations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12937             Next to him is Christine Cook, Vice‑President, Finance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12938             Seated next to Christine is Karen Clout, Coordinator, Regulatory Affairs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12939             And next to Karen is Jim Moltner, Technical Engineer with Teknyk Ltd.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12940             We are pleased to appear before you today to discuss our proposal to add transmitters of CHCA Red Deer in Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12941             Today we would like to outline to you:


LISTNUM 1 \l 12942             ‑ first, the quality of the service that CHCA provides to central Alberta;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12943             ‑ next, the ongoing financial difficulty that challenges our capacity to provide this service as well as the challenges to the CH brand of stations across the country;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12944             ‑ third, our proposal to remedy this situation by deriving national revenues from Calgary and Edmonton; and

LISTNUM 1 \l 12945             ‑ fourth, the new commitments we propose to ensure that CHCA and CanWest expand their contribution to Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12946             To lead off, I would ask Stan Schmidt, General Manager and General Sales Manager of CHCA to tell you how this small market station continues to play a large role in the community it serves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12947             MR. SCHMIDT:  Thank you, Kathy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12948             Commissioners, in December of this year CHCA will celebrate its fiftieth year.  Indeed, for half a decade CHCA has been operated as a dedicated local station serving the needs of central Alberta.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12949             We provide a high quality local service to our community with significant hours of local programming.  Each day of the week we provide a suppertime news program and a late evening newscast.  These programs are intensely local.  On average the suppertime newscast is 75 to 80 percent local and the late night newscast is approximately 95 percent local.  And when we say local, I mean central Alberta, which is very important to the whole Red Deer region.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12950             Red Deer is in central Alberta with a large agricultural community around us.  To meet their needs we produce and air the province's only regular agricultural program, "AG 21," a half‑hour program aired every morning of the week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12951             In total we provide a minimum of 9 hours and 45 minutes of local programming each and every week, which is more than most stations in similar size markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12952             But our commitment goes well beyond this.  Our management and staff continue to take a leadership role in the community we serve and we are proud of our accomplishments.  Whether through donations of free airtime for PSAs, chairing or attending community events, lending support to local fundraising drives or getting involved in joint projects to help address social issues that affect our community, we have made it a priority to lend a helping hand wherever possible in our community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12953             As an example, for many years our station has been a dedicated supporter of the Central Alberta Women's Emergency Shelter, raising funds to expand their services and facilities to women in need in central Alberta.  Our annual Celebrity Waiter dinner, including such busboys in the past and waitresses as Ron Maclean, Brian Sutter and Mayor Gail Surkan has raised over $100,000 a year since 1995.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12954             As you are aware, in Alberta the population of Aboriginal people by far exceeds the national average; 5.3 percent of the Alberta population is Aboriginal while the national average is 3.3 percent.  With this in mind and in recognizing the special place of Aboriginal people in our community, we have broadcast a number of special features highlighting the successes and the challenges faced by Aboriginal groups in our community in the past.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12955             In November of 2005, we broadcast a two‑part feature entitled "The Beat of a Different Drum" which showcased an innovative training program organized the by the cadet corps in the Hobbema community to encourage young people to take part in sports and recreation activities as an alternative to turning to drugs and alcohol.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12956             The program, which has been a success in Saskatchewan and Manitoba, was extended to the Hobbema community and CHCA reporters attended the training sessions and interviewed participants and members of the community who supported the program.  Through our reporting of the training program and raising awareness of the issues, 300 youths from the Hobbema community enlisted in this new program by late November of 2005.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12957             Our reporting of this positive story allowed us to build a stronger relationship of trust with the Hobbema community.  As a result, in the spring of 2006 we broadcast several other stories about this community to update our viewers on the progress being made.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12958             In particular, reporter Shannon Pasiuk produced a three‑part series on a local drilling safety training centre located just outside Red Deer.  The programs demonstrated how members of the local Aboriginal community were being trained to safely work on oil and gas drilling rigs, allowing them access to lucrative employment in a booming sector of the Alberta economy.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12959             We have also made serious efforts to get ourselves up to speed so we can better reflect this important aspect of our society.  In September of 2006 Robert Laboucane of RippleEffects, an Aboriginal awareness training consultant, led the Alberta CanWest management team which consisted of 19 managers from Calgary, Edmonton, Lethbridge and Red Deer, and one attendee from Global British Columbia in an intensive half‑day training session discussing culture, traditions and current Aboriginal issues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12960             We are proud of our history of service and would like to continue and amplify our contribution but we face ongoing problems.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12961             I would now ask Chris McGinley to provide some of the background.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12962             MS McGINLEY:  Thanks, Stan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12963             At one time the station could depend on revenues derived from favourable placement on cable in Alberta's two largest markets in order to generate additional national revenues to help subsidize local service in Red Deer.  In addition, as a CBC affiliate the station received affiliation revenues from the Corporation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12964             About five years ago our model started to fall apart.  The CBC approached us wishing for us to disaffiliate; we were moved up the dial in Edmonton and Calgary to much less desirable positions; and DTH satellite services started to increase their penetration of our market, bringing many new choices but not offering our service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12965             In 2003 we filed an application to disaffiliate while at the same time looking to find a way to compensate the loss of revenue by requesting transmitters in Edmonton and Calgary.  The Commission approved the disaffiliation but denied our transmitters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12966             Since then our situation has declined further.  We no longer have the CBC affiliate payments, a loss of about half a million a year.  In fact, the CBC's signal joins the other English signals available in our market and has added a new competitor for local revenues.  DTH penetration continues to climb; it is now at 47 percent of central Alberta households.  A new fragmenter, digital cable, offering multiple program choices and time shifting is making inroads, now at 11.4 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12967             We face two Edmonton stations competing for local revenues in our market, none of which provide local programming.  Both are on satellite, meaning that they reach a larger portion of the market than we can.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12968             While we do have a bit more inventory to sell, the increased competition has meant decreased revenues, and without Calgary and Edmonton to offer national advertisers, our national revenues have significantly declined.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12969             To further compound the problem, given CHCA's status as a distant signal, cable carriage in Calgary and Edmonton is neither mandatory nor guaranteed.  Consequently, the distribution of CHCA in those markets remains precarious and at the option of cable companies who can either move it up the dial at will or simply remove it at their discretion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12970             We have already experienced the negative effects of being moved from favourable channel positions below 13 to channel 50 in Calgary and 54 in Edmonton.  This is compounded by the fact that as a distant signal we do not have access to simulcast rights.  Consequently, revenues have steadily declined for the station over the past five years.  The net result is that CHCA has posted average annual losses in excess of $1.7 million since 2001.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12971             The situation in which CHCA finds itself is a local example of the problems facing the conventional television industry in general.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12972             Our CH stations across the country provide a separate stream of 8 hours per week of priority programming and they provide significant amounts of local programming in each of the markets they serve, in most cases well beyond what our competitors offer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12973             Yet, as you know from the confidential annual returns we file with the Commission each year, most of the CH stations are showing losses and in some cases significant losses.  Collectively, despite the significant contributions these stations make, they are operating at a loss.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12974             We must buy national rights for the CH programs.  That means we have paid for rights for all of Alberta for these programs but because of our precarious status on cable in Calgary and Edmonton and the lack of simultaneous substitution, U.S. stations from Spokane with better placement on the dial are credited with tuning for programs for which we hold the rights.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12975             Our proposal aims to address this situation.  It will do the following:

LISTNUM 1 \l 12976             First, generate sufficient revenues through transmitters in Calgary and Edmonton to ensure CHCA's ability to maintain its high‑quality local program offering;


LISTNUM 1 \l 12977             Second, provide programming diversity for the 10 percent of residents in Calgary and Edmonton who do not subscribe to cable, satellite or other technology by providing another viewing option;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12978             Third, mandate carriage of CHCA as a priority signal in Edmonton and Calgary to ensure that residents in those markets have guaranteed access to our Canadian priority programming and primetime foreign schedule;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12979             Fourth, allow CHCA to derive revenues for the programs we have paid for through simulcast opportunities that are not currently available by repatriating Canadian viewing;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12980             Fifth, to create a $10.5 million independently administered programming fund for priority programming from Alberta producers;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12981             Sixth, respond to the needs of Alberta's growing Aboriginal population through a number of innovative programming and internship initiatives; and

LISTNUM 1 \l 12982             Last, to reduce the impact on incumbent broadcasters by not soliciting or accepting local advertising in Calgary or Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12983             Barb Williams will now speak to the specific new programming initiatives that this application will provide.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12984             MS WILLIAMS:  Thanks, Chris.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12985             Commissioners, the revenues that approval of this application will bring will permit us to expand our contribution to the system in two distinct ways:  through an expanded involvement with the Aboriginal communities in Alberta and by financing increased Alberta independent production.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12986             Our involvement with the Aboriginal communities will have three components.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12987             Last year CanWest was the first private broadcaster in Canada to join forces with APTN to produce and broadcast the National Aboriginal Achievement Awards.  The awards are a celebration of achievements from Canada's Aboriginal communities and we are working again with APTN this year to bring the awards to Canadians from coast to coast this coming March when the awards will be held in Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12988             Now while our application originally anticipated extending SHOUT magazine, a Saskatchewan‑based youth‑oriented magazine to television, we regret that our CanWest‑based publications in Saskatchewan is no longer in partnership with the venture with the First Nations University of Canada and MGM Communications.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12989             As a result, it is our intention to replace this initiative with a bolstered and multiyear commitment to continue to produce and air the National Aboriginal Achievement Awards for the next three years.  As part of this commitment, we will substantially increase our financial participation toward the production of this program and we will air it on all our Global and CH station in primetime.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12990             We will also produce and air a series of vignettes on our airwaves highlighting the achievements of the award recipients each year and we will make these vignettes available to APTN and to all the other Canadian broadcasters at no charge in order to highlight the positive stories of young Aboriginal role models for all Canadians to celebrate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12991             As part of this application, we are committed to expand on the programming initiatives that Stan touched on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12992             We will include a regularly scheduled weekly feature on Aboriginal issues in our supper hour newscast.  This program will seek out events and issues of importance to the Aboriginal community and share their stories with all of our viewers.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12993             Twice a year we will produce two 30‑minute documentaries highlighting the most important features covered in these weekly stories and these documentaries will be aired on all our CH stations across Canada and again will be made available to APTN to broadcast on their station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12994             In order to help train young broadcasters of the future from the Aboriginal community we have also made a commitment to establish three paid four‑month internships at one of our Alberta television stations for young Aboriginal students enrolled in postsecondary programs in media and communications or journalism each year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12995             We anticipate working closely with the Aboriginal Multi‑Media Society of Alberta which is located in Edmonton in order to set up the criteria for eligibility for this program and shortlist the candidates.  Over seven years this new training program will result in 21 internships for Aboriginal students to obtain firsthand training in broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12996             We are proud of this initiative as it builds on our existing "Broadcaster of the Future" scholarship program that was established many years ago by our founder Israel Asper.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12997             Last but certainly not least, as part of our ongoing commitment to support the Alberta independent production community we will set up a $10.5 million fund that will be independently administered by the existing Independent Production Fund, the IPF, for the production of priority programming.  The funds will be accessible to all broadcasters who meet certain eligibility criteria and will be disbursed over the seven‑year period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12998             As the Commission knows, the IPF has had a long and successful history of working closely with the Alberta independent production sector in managing the funds.  They have agreed to assign a dedicated person in Alberta to act as liaison with the production industry and we are confident that they will administer these monies in a fair, responsive and efficient manner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12999             Now as you know, we had originally planned to direct these funds to produce programming exclusively for our CH stations but we are now responding to questions raised by both AMPIA and the CFTPA concerning the incrementality and local management of these funds.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13000             It is worth mentioning that this initiative represents 17 percent of the value of approval of this application to CanWest and is truly incremental to our current spending on priority programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13001             Kathy.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13002             MS DORE:  Commissioners, in closing, we have presented you with a plan to revitalize CHCA in order to breathe new life into this station in an increasingly challenging marketplace for small market television.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13003             By refraining from accessing the local advertising market in Edmonton and Calgary we will cause minimal impact to the marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13004             Approval of this application will ensure that CHCA will maintain its 50‑year heritage of service to central Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13005             It will also contribute to strengthen the CH group of stations by enabling them to receive full value for the program rights that we have purchased nationally which we cannot currently monetize in Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13006             We have proposed a number of programming and other enhancements to support the Alberta independent production community as well as the Aboriginal community of Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13007             As you heard at the TV Policy review, conventional television faces substantial challenges at present and these challenges are growing in number and impact each day.  The challenges that the industry faces hit even harder in smaller markets.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13008             Small market broadcasters at the TV Policy hearing outlined their ongoing difficulties:  fragmentation from DTH and digital cable; competition for viewers' attention from YouTube and YourSpace; and means to bypass advertising from direct downloads to PVRs.  The independently owned stations demonstrated clearly that only the CAB small market fund has kept them from increasing losses.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13009             We believe that approval of this application is one way to stem the tide without causing too much damage to others while making contributions to the objectives of the Act.  We are confident that this proposal is in the public interest.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13010             I would now like to ask Charlotte Bell to lead in the question and answer period of this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13011             We thank you for your attention and are prepared to answer your questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13012             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs. Dore.  Thank you to your team.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13013             I will ask Commissioner Williams to ask the first questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13014             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13015             Good morning, Ms Bell and CanWest panel.  I guess where I would like to start is given your application is very similar to the one we denied in CRTC 2004‑98, could you please describe or explain what has changed in the marketplace during the past few years that would perhaps result in us coming up with a different decision on this application?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13016             MS BELL:  Well, I will begin and I think Kathy Dore may want to chime in and also Chris McGinley who is the person who runs our television station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13017             Commissioner Williams, I guess we in 2003 had to a certain extent the same issues as we have now, except I would say, for lack of a better term, they have just amplified over time.  The marketplace has changed since that time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13018             As you will recall at the time Craig was operating two stations in the market.  Since then CHUM bought those stations and now there is another transaction in play.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13019             There have been significant changes in the marketplace overall.  There has been a significant increase in digital penetration across Canada and including in this market, which adds more fragmentation, more competition for viewers.  This is putting a strain on all conventional stations across Canada.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13020             One of the issues for us and what we have discussed in our opening remarks is the fact that there are certain markets in Canada that really are the engine that help subsidize the smaller markets and the markets that lose money.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13021             As part of a large station group, our Red Deer station certainly benefits from synergies and resources that come from being part of a larger group but at the same time it also has to meet higher regulatory obligations and I think that it is fair to say that the station is continuing to lose money.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13022             DTH penetration has increased.  I think it was somewhere around 30 percent in 2003; it has increased to 47 percent.  And as I said, overall digital penetration is also increasing, putting additional strain.  We are also dealing in all markets with increased competition from other regulated and non‑regulated television sources.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13023             So there are a variety of reasons why we think this is very timely and appropriate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13024             Perhaps Kathy Dore would like to add something to that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13025             MS DORE:  I would just echo that I think all of those issues are more extreme today than they were three years ago.  There is higher DTH penetration.  There is greater fragmentation.  Our programming costs have increased significantly and we are not able to monetize those costs in Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13026             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  If I can just get some clarification on that particular last statement, Ms Dore.  Would that not affect the incumbents in the marketplaces of Edmonton and Calgary as well?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13027             MS DORE:  The incumbents in Edmonton and Calgary would be able to monetize their program rights in those markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13028             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I was thinking more along the lines of the increased fragmentation and other competitive forces.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13029             MS DORE:  Certainly, increased fragmentation impacts all of us.  DTH carriage happens to impact only those networks that aren't carried on DTH and Red Deer is one of those.  So that would not impact all of the other competitors in the marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13030             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you for that clarification.  I am sorry, Ms Bell, please proceed with your answer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13031             MS BELL:  We are done with that answer.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13032             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Can you comment on the financial impact to the incumbents?  I think it was raised by CHUM who stated that they would bear the brunt of the financial revenue if your application be approved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13033             MS BELL:  Commissioner Williams, as you know, as part of our application we provided a breakdown in terms of how we think this proposal would impact on incumbents, including ourselves, and I would like to ask Brett Manlove to walk us through that impact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13034             MR. MANLOVE:  Thank you, Charlotte.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13035             Commissioner Williams, Vice‑Chair and panel, the impact position is always an interesting one.  When you look at introducing something of this type into the market, we are going to have an effect, we know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13036             In the case of our competitors what we have attempted to do, by taking a look at eliminating our ability to solicit local and looking at one of the strongest markets in the country, it would appear that we would be able to keep those impacts to a minimum at the same time as achieving the goals that we have set out to achieve for our station in Red Deer.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13037             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Talking about your station in Red Deer, how will you ensure that the station's local programming orientation, specifically its commitment to broadcast a minimum of 9 hours and 45 minutes of local programming each week, will remain dedicated to the community of Red Deer?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13038             MS BELL:  If I get the question correctly, you are asking us if we are going to maintain that local orientation and not begin to target Edmonton and Calgary?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13039             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13040             MS BELL:  You have our commitment on that but I will ask Chris McGinley and Stan Schmidt to expand on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13041             MR. SCHMIDT:  Certainly, Commissioner Williams, our ongoing emphasis with our local news in Red Deer will be central Alberta.  That is the audience that we have served for 50 years and it is the audience that we are going to continue to serve.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13042             Certainly, we will continue to provide events of provincial interest as it relates to the Legislature that is in Edmonton and other events that are of importance to central Albertans that happen in Calgary and other parts of the province but as I said earlier, 75 to 95 percent of our local content will be devoted to central Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13043             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So ‑‑ I am sorry, Ms McGinley.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13044             MS McGINLEY:  I was just going to add that this is the same model that we have with respect to our station in Victoria.  It serves ‑‑ its local market is the Vancouver Island even though we are on the lower mainland of British Columbia.  It is the same model that we serve in Kelowna; it covers the Okanagan Valley.  And the same model in Hamilton, which covers Hamilton/Niagara.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13045             All of their local programming is between 75 to 80 percent local to reflect strictly the markets that they serve, the same commitment that we are making for Red Deer to serve the central Alberta market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13046             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So if we were to approve your application, would you have any difficulty accepting the local programming commitment we just spoke about as a condition of licence?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13047             MS BELL:  I guess the only issue with that is that all of our conventional stations are coming up for renewal in probably the next 12 to 18 months and at that time we will have a better sense of where the Commission is going with its TV Policy review, because in fairness we really don't know what the landscape is going to look like after the Commission rules on the TV Policy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13048             The other issue is in this market we are maintaining that level of local orientation, we are going to continue to do that, and in fact we have been overperforming on the hours and we have no intention of reducing those hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13049             But I think that there are a number of factors that are unknown to us at this point that will be clear by the time we come up for our licence renewal.  So we feel that perhaps a condition of licence is not necessarily warranted at this time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13050             We can certainly agree and we are fully committed to maintain the local orientation that is unquestioned.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13051             If you are suggesting a condition of licence on the hours that we are committed to at this point, we feel that that may not be warranted at this time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13052             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13053             MS BELL:  Commissioner Williams, may I go back to your previous question ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13054             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Absolutely.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13055             MS BELL:  ‑‑ on impacts because I feel that we didn't answer that correctly or with as much detail as I think you were asking?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13056             We did provide a breakdown as part of our supplementary brief ‑‑ it was on page 10 ‑‑ and in terms of the impact on CHUM's station specifically, we projected that 14 percent in Calgary of the impact of this proposal would be borne by CHUM, which would represent about $1 million, and 7 percent in Edmonton, which would represent about less than half a million dollars.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13057             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you.  I would like to talk about your programming initiatives.  You stated that you would spend $10.5 million over seven years on priority programming originating from independent producers in the province of Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13058             Can you provide us some specific details regarding how this increased funding would be allocated and the type and number of additional hours of any priority programming that would be produced?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13059             MS BELL:  I am going to ask Barb Williams to provide that information.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13060             MS WILLIAMS:  Sure.  I have actually had a number of conversations at this point with Andra Scheffer who runs the IPF, the Independent Production Fund, who we are proposing would run this fund for us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13061             I will say, to begin, that she was delighted when we came to her and suggested that her organization could help us out with this initiative.  They clearly have a ton of experience and success in managing funds and they are very well known and trusted by the independent production community.  So right off the bat, we think we are in good shape working with them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13062             We have been discussing the criteria and we have been discussing how to best manage the funds and we have not locked all the details yet but let me tell you sort of where we are at.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13063             Firstly, we see that this fund would be dedicated to priority programming and specifically to drama and to documentary, which we believe are the two categories which are most ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13064             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Would this be in addition to your current priority programming commitments?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13065             MS WILLIAMS:  That is additional dollars but understand that this fund is being proposed to be available to all broadcasters.  So this is not just about us accessing this money to provide hours for us, this is really about focusing on the opportunity for independent producers in Alberta to have access to some more money to help them get some of their bigger drama and documentary projects under way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13066             So to the extent that we were a successful applicant at the fund then this would generate hours for us.  But this is incremental spending that we have committed to support the Alberta community, not incremental spending specifically to us.  This fund is accessible to all broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13067             So it would be specifically for Alberta producers and Alberta producers only.  It would be for priority programming, specifically drama and documentary.  It would be seen as an additional funding source, not to replace a broadcast licence fee but as an additional funding source to help close financing scenarios for producers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13068             It is hard to say at this point exactly how many hours it might generate but we would expect, given that dramas and documentaries are the more expensive kind of television to make, that likely we are talking about 100 additional hours over the term, which is a significant number of hours in those categories of programming.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13069             The other sort of key point is that the IPF agreed with us that it would be really important to put somebody on the ground in Alberta to be the face of this fund, someone who the Alberta producers could interact with directly and face to face, who would understand their issues and their concerns.  So the IPF has agreed to support a person in Alberta who would be that liaison for this fund.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13070             And we believe that by going with the IPF, who are already administering many funds, that we can really contain the costs of fund administration and be sure that as much money as possible goes to the screen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13071             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  And so that would be the method of funding disbursement then, it would be through the fund and through this identified person?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13072             MS WILLIAMS:  Exactly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13073             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  What is your view on imposition of a condition of licence requiring the expenditure of $10.5 million on priority programming to be produced in Alberta?  I assume there is no problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13074             MS BELL:  We would accept that.  That is the criteria that we set up with the IPF.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13075             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Would CanWest submit annual reports outlining its activities on independent production?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13076             MS BELL:  I suspect that what we would do is ask the IPF to provide us with a report and then we would file that with the Commission on an annual basis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13077             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.  You have talked about a news feature called "Aboriginal Focus" and to develop two annual 30‑minute documentary programs from the highlights of these features.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13078             Could you please provide some information on the duration and scheduling of these features and the proposed day of broadcast and the number of features it tends to commit to within the broadcast year?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13079             MS BELL:  I am going to ask Stan Schmidt to answer that question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13080             MR. SCHMIDT:  Commissioner Williams, I think we have committed in our application and reiterated again today that we will do a weekly feature in our supper newscast, so in other words, 52 distinct different features on Aboriginal activities in the central Alberta marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13081             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  And these would all be produced in your Red Deer studio?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13082             MR. SCHMIDT:  Yes, they would, sir.  Out of those 52 special reports that we would do on a weekly basis, we would select the highlights, I guess, of those special reports to develop the two documentaries that we would air each year, so I am thinking one every six months, something like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13083             We haven't really made that determination yet but certainly those documentaries would also air on the other CH stations in Canada as well as they would be made available to APTN.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13084             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13085             To what extent, if any, does CanWest expect some of its incremental revenues to come via repatriation of audience and advertising revenues lost to U.S. border stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13086             MS BELL:  I am going to ask Brett Manlove and David Rathan to address that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13087             Brett.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13088             MR. MANLOVE:  Thank you very much, Charlotte.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13089             Simultaneous substitution is a very important part of a few criteria that are going to be important to the generation of the revenue.  Simultaneous substitution, according to the work we have done, represents about 45 percent of the increase to our audience but about 62 percent of our revenues.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13090             Higher rated shows largely in primetime, higher rate and ‑‑ we have 29 hours of programming scheduled that would get simulcast.  So 8 to 10 hours would be in prime.  So that would be the extent of how it breaks down.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13091             David.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13092             MR. RATHAN:  Sixty‑two percent is a good number.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13093             MS BELL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13094             Commissioner Williams, I think your question is in terms of the impact of the new stations, how much of that might come from other sources as opposed to the incumbents; was that your question?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13095             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That is the question, exactly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13096             MS BELL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13097             MR. MANLOVE:  I can continue.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13098             For the total revenue package, the bulk of that amount of simultaneous ‑‑ what would be the amount that the simultaneous substitution then would equal?  Commissioner Williams, is that what we are ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 13099             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes, the incremental revenues to come via repatriation of audience and advertising revenues currently lost to U.S. border stations is what I am looking for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13100             MR. SCHMIDT:  Mr. Williams, I think that one thing we can say is that we are estimating that somewhere around 25 percent of our revenue will come from other sources and that being repatriation from U.S. stations, some coming from other forms of media such as radio, internet, newspaper, and the other 75 percent, the bulk of that coming from the incumbents in the marketplace, including ourselves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13101             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Did you do a breakdown on to what extent does CanWest see revenues from other media?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13102             MS BELL:  We didn't break down the 25 percent in detail.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13103             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You didn't break down the 25?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13104             MS BELL:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13105             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  What specific programming strategies might CHCA‑TV use to facilitate audience and advertising revenue repatriation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13106             MS BELL:  I will ask Barb Williams to discuss this.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13107             MS WILLIAMS:  Actually we are quite proud of our CHCA schedule.  We think it is a great schedule that has a great strong mix of local programming and some of Canadian viewers' favourite primetime American shows.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13108             I think the challenge for us in terms of making that schedule successful is being sure that all of our viewers have full access to it and so what we are trying to do here is accomplish taking back those viewers that are currently enjoying those shows on American stations and getting them back to our station where they can not only enjoy those shows but we can then share with them all the other elements of our schedule that they may not be aware of and move that audience around through primetime and then into our local shows as well and through our other Canadian primetime shows to make the whole schedule as successful as possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13109             Now obviously, some additional support in terms of promotion would be important to be sure that there was awareness that this station was now available to them in a better, more favourable position if we were able to achieve that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13110             But really, I think our frustration at the moment is that we have a great schedule that maybe isn't being as fully enjoyed as it could be.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13111             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You are currently applying for an analog channel for both markets.  However, broadcasters are adopting digital transmission technologies to be used in the provision of broadcasting services.  The United States will shut down their analog transmitters perhaps in 2009 and post‑transitional digital television plans are already under discussion between Industry Canada and the FCC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13112             Do you have a digital and post‑transitional plan for your proposed station, and if so, what can you tell us about your plans for digital?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13113             MS BELL:  I can begin and Kathy Dore may want to add to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13114             We have not established a definitive plan for digital rollout.  We are also awaiting the Commission's determination in terms of its TV Policy for viewing.  We made a number of recommendations in terms of how we thought the rollout may occur in Canada.  I don't know if the 2009 cutoff date is actually going to occur at that point in the U.S.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13115             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  It may be later, yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13116             MS BELL:  It may be a little later.  In Canada, I think most broadcasters seem to agree that 2011 or two years following the 2009 or the U.S. shutoff might be an appropriate time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13117             In any case, it is a bit of a dilemma when you are applying for a television station under current rules and trying to anticipate what might be happening later.  This is why we have applied for analog transmitters at this time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13118             We are hoping that by the time we file our licence renewal next year that we will be able to give you a better idea of our rollout plans for HD.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13119             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Ms Bell.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13120             In the event the Commission decides not to license you for the frequency for which you have applied, have you considered the use of another frequency, and if yes, which one, and if no, why not?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13121             MS BELL:  Yes, we think there are all alternatives.  I will ask our engineer Jim Moltner to provide more information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13122             MR. MOLTNER:  Commissioner Williams, I assume you are talking about Calgary since we are not in competition in Edmonton?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13123             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That is correct.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13124             MR. MOLTNER:  Yes, in Calgary, we have identified a total of four available channels, not including the digital channels applied for by Miracle.  So if in your wisdom, as you say, you were to license everybody, there would be enough channels available for everybody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13125             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Would you having to change to a different frequency have any kind of punitive effect on your business plan?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13126             MR. MOLTNER:  Not really.  The class of channels available is roughly equivalent to what we have applied for, so the coverage would be roughly the same.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13127             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  In your experience, Ms Bell, in CanWest's experience, how many new stations can the Edmonton and Calgary markets support?  We asked the last presenter, the m channel, what would be the impact on their application should we approve CanWest, an ethnic service and a religious service.  What would be your answer to a similar question?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13128             MS BELL:  I will begin and others, I think, may want to chime in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13129             As you know, in the intervention phase prior to the hearing we intervened against the two ethnic applicants, based on the fact that we think that it will have an impact on our operations.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13130             We heard the two religious applicants yesterday and we don't feel that there is a significant impact on our operations if either of the two are licensed, as long as they remain truly religious services and they don't being to go into other areas of more mainstream programming and start to compete head‑to‑head with us.  So on the religious applicants, we don't feel that there is really a significant impact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13131             In terms of the ethnic services, it is our belief, and we have stated this in our intervention, that we feel that Rogers has understated its revenues.  We feel that Rogers through this application also will grow into what we could call a quasi‑network, which would also give them the ability to start bidding for national program rights and that is also an area of concern for us.  So it is not just the revenue impact in the Alberta market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13132             I think we tend to focus inward or on the smaller market but the fact is when you start moving pieces around, in the television broadcasting system everything is connected and if you move one piece, it has an impact on the other pieces.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13133             In the case of Rogers, I think there are other considerations, not only the financial impact in those markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13134             In terms of the m channel proposal, we looked at it carefully and we believe that that proposal has actually ‑‑ that they have actually overstated their revenues by a significant amount.  We feel that the m channel would have less of an impact on our stations and of course we would have an impact on our own operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13135             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Ms Bell.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13136             That concludes my line of questioning, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13137             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Williams.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13138             I will ask Commissioner Cugini to ask you a few questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13139             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13140             Ms Bell, you did mention a couple of times the TV review proceedings and one area that we did discuss at length with you in particular was your Red Deer station situation and the fact that it is not currently carried on DTH.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13141             If you were successful, either through your own negotiations or anything we might decide as a result of the TV review, to be granted DTH carriage, would that in any way mitigate the situation of that Red Deer station such that you would withdraw your application for retransmitters in both Calgary and Edmonton?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13142             MS BELL:  Actually, it wouldn't.  There is no doubt that obtaining DTH carriage would help but at the same time it certainly does not address the issue of national advertising in Calgary and Edmonton.  It doesn't address the fact that the channel placement is above 50 in those markets and that we are not getting simulcast, which is to a large extent what we need in order to generate national advertising revenues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13143             The experience that we have seen from other small market stations who eventually obtained DTH carriage, we have noticed it is a very slow and gradual increase in terms of viewership because it takes time.  If you weren't up in the first round, once you do get up on satellite it does take a fair amount of time before viewers become aware that you are actually there.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13144             So would it have an impact?  It would have a small impact.  It would take, I think, a significant amount of time and it certainly would not alleviate all of the issues that we are dealing with because Red Deer has issues as a local station but it is also part of a large group of stations, which is the CH stream, and our ability to access Calgary and Edmonton through cable would generate significant revenues for us and is much more beneficial than getting DTH carriage for Red Deer alone.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13145             MR. SCHMIDT:  Commissioner Cugini, I think you heard in the last presentation from Mr. Reitmayer that when he was at our station in Red Deer that they were selling a fair bit of advertising into the Edmonton and Calgary markets at a fairly decent cost per rating point and that was based on us being on channel 5 in Calgary and channel 22, I believe, in Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13146             Since that has changed, in 2001 we went to channel 50 in Calgary, channel 52 in Edmonton, and they bumped us again in Edmonton to channel 54, those revenues have gone away.  People can't find us, so people are not watching us.  We can't simulcast, so our national revenues that Mr. Reitmayer talked about are nonexistent anymore.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13147             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And those are currently the channel positions of the stations in the two markets?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13148             MR. SCHMIDT:  Yes, channel 50 in Calgary and channel 54 in Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13149             Just on the DTH issue as well, I think we can speak to a little bit of experience.  Before coming to Red Deer, I was at our station in Saskatoon and we are on both DTH providers in Saskatoon but it was probably about six years after DTH came on the scene that we arrived there and it has been a very, very slow audience growth, for people to find us there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13150             I think Mr. Rathan might even be able to tell you a little bit about what has happened in Lloydminster, who is also up on the bird now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13151             MS BELL:  I think Barb Williams can also add another perspective to this in terms of our priority programming commitments and how that ties in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13152             MS WILLIAMS:  Sure, and it may be worth also going back to David's words on Lethbridge (sic), as Stan just suggested, because I think there is ‑‑ or Lloydminster, I am sorry ‑‑ because I think there is an interesting example there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13153             But I guess the other thing we are really trying to accomplish with our CH stream is to live up to our commitment to do 8 hours of priority programming on the CH stream, which is separate and distinct from Global.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13154             We take those commitments very seriously and we see them as a real opportunity to generate some great new Canadian priority programming.  We are actually in the midst right now of doing a couple of new dramas for CH, and frankly, there hasn't been new drama done distinctly for CH in quite a while.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13155             So we are really trying to bolster the priority programming initiative on CH and in an effort to make that programming as successful as it can be across the country, we are really looking for the stations themselves, obviously, to be successful and to be profitable but we are also looking for the opportunity for Canadian viewers to enjoy those priority programs to be as great as possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13156             So we see a real win for priority programming in general by extending the success and the reach of the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13157             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  What percentage of the population in both Edmonton and Calgary currently receive their signal off air?  I ask that just in relation to the fact that you are currently carried via cable in both markets, on analog.  Therefore, what percentage of the population in both of those markets receive their signals off air?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13158             MS BELL:  In Calgary it is 8 percent of the central market and 10 percent of the extended market, and in Edmonton it is 10 percent of both.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13159             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13160             Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13161             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Some of my other colleagues also have questions but one that directly follows Commissioner Cugini's question is:  Have you ever got the benefit of simulcast substitution in Calgary before?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13162             MS BELL:  Not on this station, no.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13163             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Not on that station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13164             MS BELL:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13165             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And the same for Edmonton?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13166             MS BELL:  That is correct, because we are a distant signal in both, so we don't have ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13167             THE CHAIRPERSON:  In both?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13168             MS BELL:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13169             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13170             I will ask Commissioner Langford.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13171             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13172             I guess I will just ask the worst question of all and really get going and I want this in words of one syllable so I can understand it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13173             What happens if we say no?  Realistically what happens, what do you do?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13174             MS DORE:  Well, I think we are very disappointed, first of all, and ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13175             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We always produce sad people, so that is not news.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13176             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We do happy and we do sad, that is what we do because there aren't enough frequencies on earth.  So clarify my mudification on your sad level.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13177             MS DORE:  I think it requires a rethinking of our strategic planning for CH overall and certainly, depending on what might or might not come out of the TV Policy review, we consider Red Deer to be in dire straits, frankly, and we would need to rethink, certainly, our commitment to that community given that we are only reaching a little over half of them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13178             As well, I think if you continue that reasoning and you look at Alberta as being really a necessary precondition to having a viable national network, then it certainly causes us to rethink some of the more expensive programming commitments that we are making for CH as a brand.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13179             I don't think any of that would take place overnight but certainly over time if the CH stream is not viable and we can't command simulcast in Calgary and Edmonton, two of the big five markets at this point in the country, then it requires a very different kind of look at the business and a very different business plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13180             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You are not suggesting that you would close it, give us back the licence or anything like that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13181             MS DORE:  Again, I don't think that we would do anything precipitous but I certainly wouldn't rule that out long term if we continue to have a money‑losing operation, that that is certainly a possibility, although not one that, given the 50‑year history and the kind of service that we provide there, we would not ‑‑ we could certainly think long and hard and things would have to continue to be quite bad for us to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13182             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So cutbacks but not necessarily cut and run?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13183             MS DORE:  Certainly, that would be our first approach.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13184             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Now you are doing pretty well according to your own figures on your existing Edmonton and Calgary conventional stations.  It seems to me, if I read them correctly, that you are the market leaders in those two cities on your existing conventional signals.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13185             Would that be right?  Have I misread that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13186             MS BELL:  Brett can provide some ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13187             MR. MANLOVE:  I would say we would be probably the No. 2 station in the markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13188             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Number 2?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13189             MR. MANLOVE:  Right after CTV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13190             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  When did you file this application?  Refresh my memory on dates.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13191             MS BELL:  It was filed in August after the second call for applications.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13192             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  The impact of what might be coming down the road on the figures that we have discussed today and the bright future you would have if we said yes, on the new situation with Bell Globemedia and CHUM should that go through, what impact would that have on the figures you have filed with us in this application?  Can you guess in any way?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13193             MS BELL:  We actually didn't take ‑‑ it is very much in the back of our minds.  We did not bring it up in the context of this hearing because we know it is something that is before you and we can't predict what the outcome is, although it is something that is of concern to us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13194             We have not factored that into our projects but there is no doubt that if that were to come to pass and the Commission said no to us ‑‑ and also just to be very clear, you asked the question what do you do if we say no.  What if you say no to us and you say yes to others also and you approve the Bell Globemedia/CHUM deal, those all have different implications that clearly those are things that we have thought of.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13195             We have not estimated what the financial impact would be but ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13196             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Let us talk about it a little just in narrative terms.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13197             Let us assume ‑‑ because you have given us some figures assuming that we say yes and you have spoken today about what this will do to you and how your simulcast will help you generate some revenues and you will take some of that revenue and you will spend it on independent production and do things like that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13198             So fine, let us assume just in narrative terms ‑‑ I don't expect figures here, obviously, and there is more than us involved in the future of this elephant in the room, if we can call it that.  The Competition Bureau is looking at it.  We are going to be looking at it.  We are looking at it now and we will be looking at it publicly later.  So there are unknowns.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13199             But assume just for the sake of argument that the CTV/CHUM, if we can call it that, Bell Globemedia/CHUM deal goes through with regard to this market, so that you have a double presence of this new entity in Calgary and Edmonton and then we have a double presence of you in Calgary and Edmonton, what happens to the sort of figures that you have given us?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13200             MS DORE:  I am not sure that the figures actually ‑‑ that our projections change dramatically.  I guess what I would say is that in filing this application it was prior to the Bell Globemedia announcement of their acquisition of CHUM and we considered that getting the Red Deer signal into Calgary and Edmonton was a necessary and a very significant event in terms of the continued viability of that station and of our CH brand.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13201             We certainly consider the Bell Globemedia acquisition to be creating, assuming that is it approved, a much stronger competitor to CanWest and we anticipate that that competition in the marketplace will increase and would therefore think that the approval of this application would serve to certainly even the playing field a bit more than it would without it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13202             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Do you see, in general terms, your expenses going up perhaps for program purchases?  Taking on this new and large competitor, do you them going up, do you see your revenues coming down?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13203             I am trying to get a sense ‑‑ I mean you filed some figures with us and they are interesting figures but I have no way of knowing and perhaps you don't either but you are the experienced broadcasters.  We are just meddlesome regulators, as you continually tell us.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 13204             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So what do you see just in general narrative terms in the sense of what happens to what you have filed with us?  I am sure it was your best guess when you filed it.  I am not in any way trying to poke holes in what is in this book but what I am trying to figure out is where it goes should this new entity, at least in these markets, come to pass?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13205             MS BELL:  I wanted to make one clarification, Commissioner Langford.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13206             When you said that if the Commission approved the BGM/CHUM deal, they have two and you have two.  Technically, yes, except we would have two more signals in each of ‑‑ or one more signal in each of Calgary and Edmonton.  We are not establishing new local television stations and we would not be getting any local advertising revenues from those transmitters and that would be a big difference between us and ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13207             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I know the differences, what I am trying to figure out is the impact on the revenues you do anticipate getting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13208             You anticipate getting some substantially more national advertising revenues; am I not correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13209             MS BELL:  Yes, we are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13210             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  If you are successful here today.  So will those numbers go down and will your expenses go up if you are facing this new competitor?  What is your view?  I don't ask you for numbers but I do ask you for trends, impacts.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13211             MS DORE:  I think that certainly, programming cost increases are a concern in the new world that you identify and we would anticipate and make some prediction that there will be programming cost increases.  I would not anticipate a dramatic shift in terms of our revenue projections as they apply to this particular market in this particular applications.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13212             MS WILLIAMS:  I would only add to that that if that concern of rising programming costs were to come true, it would become increasingly important for us to be able to simulcast those program rights in Alberta in order to compete successfully on the revenue side of those program costs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13213             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well that is a good ‑‑ did you want to add something?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13214             MS WILLIAMS:  It is just a further indication of what the key difference is between potentially CTV having two in one market and us having two in one market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13215             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That is certainly what I am driving at.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13216             MS WILLIAMS:  Yes.  I mean the two ‑‑ it is very different once you take into account simulcast and local revenue, and if our second station didn't have simulcast and wasn't accessing local revenue, then it is not an apples‑to‑apples at all of us having two and them having two.  We would be at a significant disadvantage from that perspective.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13217             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well that shows why I am not in television because your answers surprise me, actually.  I am pleasantly surprised but I would have thought that you would have been saying the impact would be much higher, for some reason, that you have this organized twin stick going up against you and you would have yours in there as well but it is a fairly large force.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13218             But you are telling me here today that the impact on revenues shouldn't change, that the plan you have put in front of us is pretty well solid.  That is interesting to me and I am grateful for the answer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13219             MS DORE:  I think just to clarify Barb's point, were we not to get approval of this application, then I think the revenue situation deteriorates pretty dramatically from what it is currently.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13220             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I understand that.  Just one more area.  I am sorry to prolong this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13221             MR. SCHMIDT:  Commissioner Langford, if I can just maybe add a little something there.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13222             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13223             MR. SCHMIDT:  Certainly, if the CHUM/CTV Globemedia deal goes through, certainly it provides CHUM with the opportunity, I think, for better program buying opportunities and certainly that would add to the current problems that we have in the Red Deer market itself, along with what it could possibly do in Calgary in Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13224             But currently, all of those stations are available off air, on cable, and most of them on satellite in the Red Deer marketplace.  So if you saw CHUM become a stronger signal in the Red Deer marketplace, CTV is currently selling local advertising against us in the marketplace and I could see City starting to do that as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13225             So it could certainly hurt us there and I think there would be some impact here in Edmonton and Calgary as well, especially if we remained a distant signal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13226             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I must say I expected more of that type of answer.  I wasn't trying to encourage it.  I am glad to have your answers from all of you and I am interested in them.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13227             But I think from my point of view anyway ‑‑ I can't speak for my colleagues ‑‑ it is important for us to have an understanding of your reaction.  It is important for me to have an understanding of your reaction to how this market may change.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13228             It is not speculative anymore.  I mean there is an actual possibility that there may be a significant change and it is interesting to me to hear you react to that and to hear how it might impact on what you have filed in front of us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13229             MS BELL:  Just one point on that and Kathy alluded to it.  We filed this irrespective of the fact that this other transaction is before you.  We filed this because it is necessary for us to do this and we filed this application in 2003.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13230             So regardless of what happens on this other transaction, that may be something that we have to deal with down the road and we will have to deal with it as it comes, but this is important regardless of what happens with that other transaction.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13231             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Oh, I have no doubt of that.  I think you have made that lucidly clear.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13232             Just one other area of questioning.  I thought your answer to Commissioner Williams on the notion of the focus of this channel, these stations was just a little vague for me.  Sometimes I need clearer words.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13233             When I look at the language that you use with regard to the focus of this thing, you talk about how you are dedicated to local news and local issues and you talk about your 9 hours and 45 minutes of local Red Deer news but you also talk about keeping your focus on central Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13234             And then when you were asked if you would accept some sort of COL to kind of quantify that to ensure that this sort of focus would continue, you spoke about an upcoming licence renewal and how that might be a more appropriate time.  That confuses me, frankly.  It confuses me a little bit.  I don't want to be difficult but it confuses me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13235             I don't understand why we couldn't figure out a way to establish what the focus of this service would be once ‑‑ assuming we accept your application and we give you the rebroads that you seek and the opportunities you seek to grow your revenues, clearly, we want to keep something for Red Deer here.  So I just don't quite understand why you can't go a little farther than wait for the licence renewal in 18 months.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13236             What could we structure here?  Help us out.  I mean what can we structure?  Give us something that we can hang on you as a COL that you can live with for the next 18 months.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13237             MS BELL:  You really want a COL, don't you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13238             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I love COLs because they are so clear and it gives our counsel things to do.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13239             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Sometimes he gets so bored.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13240             MS BELL:  It gives me something to do too.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13241             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Excellent.  So write us up a COL.  What can we do here?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13242             MS BELL:  We could propose something and file it with you a little later but just to be very clear, I think when we were talking about COLs and our licence renewal I was specifically referring to the COL on the amount of hours that we were committed to doing, I was not referring to the orientation of the programming.  If the Commission would like, we can file something with you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13243             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay, well let's just talk about it for a couple more minutes before you start writing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13244             MS BELL:  Let's.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13245             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13246             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I can just see the news in the Calgary Herald saying, Ottawa meddlesome regulator doesn't know where our two biggest cities are, but I will take a chance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13247             You speak of central Alberta, your focus on central Alberta.  Would you say that Calgary and Edmonton are in central Alberta?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13248             MR. SCHMIDT:  Mr. Commissioner, absolutely not.  The central Alberta corridor has a population, according to BBM, of approximately 223,000 people.  So it goes from Red Deer to Wetaskiwin in the north, which is quite a ways from Edmonton, and goes to an area of around Innisfail, Bowden, which is not near close to Calgary, and then of course we go to west and east of the city of Red Deer as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13249             In fact, we do have a coverage map that we could leave with you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13250             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You might want to stick that on the back of your COL ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 13251             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ‑‑ because what I am going to suggest here now is that I ‑‑ and I am grateful for that answer and I am willing to take my chances with Frank magazine and my knowledge of geography.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13252             What I am going to suggest when you are crafting this COL is that you recollect what has just been described as central Alberta to help us people and that you recollect your continued commitment to Red Deer and what you are doing there now.  And then we will leave it to you.  And when can we expect this purple prose?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13253             MS BELL:  I would think after the lunch break.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13254             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That is excellent.  I absolutely know I will have no heartburn thinking of that.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13255             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Those are my questions, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13256             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Langford.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13257             I will continue on Commissioner Langford's line of questions.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13258             You describe the Red Deer station as a station that serves the agricultural community in central Alberta but if we were to approve your plan, you will be generating over $100 million over a seven‑year term from both Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13259             What do you bring to Calgarians or Edmontonians for $101 million other than investing $10.5 million into the Independent Production Fund?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13260             MS DORE:  Well I think we are certainly bringing programming to that 10 percent of the population that doesn't subscribe to cable, satellite or other technology.  We are bringing 8 hours per week of priority Canadian programming and we are ‑‑ in terms of having access to simulcast we are repatriating, certainly, some Canadian dollars to Canadian broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13261             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That I understand very well.  That is your plan, to repatriate the money.  I am asking you what do you bring and you said 8 hours of priority programming.  I guess that if I am a cable subscriber in Calgary or Edmonton or a DTH subscriber, I am getting them anyhow through time‑shifting because one of your CH stations somewhere is carried by one of those BDUs.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13262             So the priority programming, I can get if I am a BDU subscriber; am I right or am I making a statement that doesn't stand?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13263             MS DORE:  Yes, you could access that programming if you are time‑shifting on another station.  I think perhaps it is a good idea to clarify a bit your $102 million estimate because all of that does not get taken out.  That is a gross number, not a net number.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13264             I guess what I would say is the point you are making is certainly also true of the Edmonton signals that come into Red Deer and I guess my question would be what are the Red Deer citizens getting from CTV and CBC coming out of Edmonton?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13265             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is a fair question.  I think that we will surely have to deal with it at the time of renewal.  That is a fair question but my question now is to you because I have an opportunity to hear you.  So what are you bringing to Calgarians and Edmontonians?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13266             MS WILLIAMS:  Some others may want to add from the local perspective but I think the other things that we are bringing forward ‑‑ in addition to the production fund, which obviously will enhance Canadian programming across all of the services for viewers in Calgary and Edmonton, not only on ours but we are sharing that wealth, if you will, with our competitors in an effort to bring more and better Canadian programming to Calgarians and Edmontonians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13267             But additionally, our commitments to the Aboriginal community, I think, are important to the extent that we can add to the coverage of those stories and those events and those issues and we can more proactively share their concerns and their perspectives with a larger group of people in Edmonton and Calgary, which we understand, you move a channel down the dial and more people access it more frequently and with more dedication.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13268             So the opportunity there as well is to continue to work at extending the stories and the issues of that community into markets that it is very relevant for.  So all of our initiatives that way to support the Aboriginal community, I think, are additional important changes for those larger markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13269             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13270             I will ask Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13271             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13272             I will just keep moving on that, Ms Williams, because I wasn't entirely sure when you were replacing "SHOUT" what you were going to do.  So if I can take you to page 12, the first part, the first paragraph:


"As part of this commitment we will increase our financial participation towards the production of this program and will air it on Global and CH."

(As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 13273             How much?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13274             MS WILLIAMS:  Actually, we have been in conversation with Roberta Jamieson who heads up the Aboriginal Achievement Awards about that because we wanted to be sure that we could put something substantial forward to them that would make a real difference to their ability to produce a quality program for the country.  So we are talking to them about doubling the commitment that we have made in the past year to them on a go‑forward basis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13275             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What was your commitment?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13276             MS WILLIAMS:  It was $50,000 this year.  We would double that to $100,000 for the next three years, each of three years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13277             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And that is acceptable to you that we would write the CTD as that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13278             MS WILLIAMS:  Mm‑hmm.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13279             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  Next, you would produce and air a series of vignettes.  How many?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13280             MS WILLIAMS:  It would depend on how many winners there were.  The idea here is to take the number of winners, which I think roughly 12 to 14 has been our experience in the last couple of years, and do a profile vignette on each of them.  So however many there were in the awards and, as I say, do a profile vignette on each which we would then broadcast ourselves as well as share for others to broadcast.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13281             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So the CTD would be written that you would produce and air vignettes on each award‑winner in these awards.  The vignettes to be how long, 30 seconds?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13282             MS WILLIAMS:  No, I would think more likely to be between a minute and two minutes in order to substantially tell a story.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13283             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So the CTD would read vignettes to be in between one and two minutes long?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13284             MS WILLIAMS:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13285             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  Then I didn't understand the last paragraph on page 15 of your oral presentation:

"While we had originally planned to..."


LISTNUM 1 \l 13286             Oh, now I understand.  Initially the funds were going to be only for your CH stations, now they are available for every broadcaster?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13287             MS WILLIAMS:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13288             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  You said, Ms Bell, that Rogers underestimates their potential revenue and you think channel m overestimates.  There is the controversy of the 30 percent discount that you, of course, heard going through here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13289             Is there a 30 percent discount at CJNT in Montreal?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13290             MS BELL:  Brett will answer that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13291             MR. MANLOVE:  The answer to that would be no.  We manage our rates to our audience performance and compete with that market, as we do with all the stations, and no, we don't discount.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13292             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13293             MS BELL:  But it is not a new station coming on either.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13294             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  That is true.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13295             MS BELL:  I think that is a clarification.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13296             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You have been around for ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13297             MS BELL:  Many years.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13298             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13299             I was listening to your discussion with Commissioner Langford about CTV having a twin stick and that it really wasn't going to impact you in terms of revenue, operation costs.  Why then would the ethnic stations impact on you?  Is it their national revenue?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13300             MS DORE:  They are new to the market and inherent in my comments on CTV and CHUM was certainly that the overall performance of their programming doesn't increase and ours does, and that is certainly a subjective judgment, but they are in the market and not new to the market, so they are not taking dollars out that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13301             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes, but you are not going to take any local sales, so it would really be the national advertising in that market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13302             MS DORE:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13303             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And you don't think the growth of the market is sufficient to cover an ethnic station and yourselves?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13304             MS DORE:  We don't believe that the growth of the market will fully cover even what we would take, as you can tell by our projections.  So certainly not two.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13305             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  Now my last question is that inherent in this system, and as my colleagues in the majority said in the DTH decision, the big guys have got lots of stations and profitable markets and so they can afford to subsidize the smaller markets, it is the independent smaller markets that we should be worrying about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13306             If I look at potential for Global coming down the pipe, you might also have the potential for cross‑subsidization from an animal called Alliance Atlantis and their wonderful PBITs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13307             So at what point do we say that the original plan on conventionals, conventional cross‑subsidization from the large to the small, and the new plan of specialty cross‑subsidization to conventional, at what point do we say the cross‑subsidization is too much?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13308             You know, losing $1.7 million since 2001, well you probably picked up a fair chunk of change in Toronto, Chuck and Chan or what used to Chuck and Chan in Vancouver.  So what is wrong with subsidizing?  Isn't this what local service is about and being a network and providing local service to people?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13309             MS DORE:  I think it is certainly a matter of opinion.  What I believe is that any small station that can't see any path to break even or profitability is a good place to start in terms of when cross‑subsidization isn't enough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13310             Also, I would say that in a sense, given all the conversation that we have just had, that we are asking for an even playing field in the conventional space with our primary competitors and no more and no less than that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13311             So although those are, again, subjective opinions in terms of what is enough and what is too much, I think given the information that we have provided in the application and in our answers here today that we really do believe that this does not give us a significant competitive advantage in the Alberta market but it makes our Red Deer station viable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13312             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13313             Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13314             MS McGINLEY:  Excuse me.  May I just add that you had mentioned $1.7 million.  We have lost in excess of $1.7 million per year.  So that is annual, not over the seven years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13315             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay, I am sorry.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13316             MS McGINLEY:  And one other clarification.  With respect to what are we providing for Edmonton and Calgary, I think we shouldn't forget that we also provide programming diversity for the 10 percent of residents in Calgary and Edmonton who do not subscribe to cable, satellite or other technology.  So we are providing another viewing option.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13317             MR. SCHMIDT:  Also, Commissioner Cram, when Commissioner Langford asked the question of what would happen if we didn't get these licences and Ms Dore said that we would have to reevaluate that situation as to what we would do, I guess it is very similar, yes, CanWest is a very big company ‑‑ it is very much similar though, the way I look at it, to someone like the Hudson Bay Company that has been around for well over 100 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13318             When I lived in Prince Albert we used to have a Hudson Bay Store there.  When it came to the point where it wasn't a profitable enterprise anymore, it doesn't matter how big the company is, and yes, you have got 10 big stores in Toronto, they closed the Prince Albert store down and the staff lost their positions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13319             I am not saying that would happen here but certainly it is something that you would have to have a look at.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13320             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Mr. Schmidt, I agree with you.  My colleagues in the majority don't in the DTH decision, that is all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13321             MS WILLIAMS:  If I could just add one thought and that would just be that one of the ways that we can continue to take advantage of the fact that we are a big company in an effort to help support the smaller market stations is by being sure that when we invest in those national program rights we have the opportunity to monetize them with simultaneous substitution, which is also one of the sort of underlying understandings of the way the business works in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13322             So it is a great way for us to be able as a larger company to take advantage of what we can do in order to support those smaller stations.  So simulcast is a key part of this story, I think.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13323             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13324             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13325             We asked all the other applicants if their applications were severable.  So what are your views on the severability of your two applications?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13326             MS BELL:  I think we may have a different view than some of the other applicants.  Our programming enhancements and other enhancements and our financial projections are based on obtaining approval for both transmitters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13327             There is also a practical reason in terms of how advertising is bought in Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13328             I will ask Brett Manlove to provide some background in terms of why it would be an issue for us to sever the applications from that standpoint.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13329             MR. MANLOVE:  Thank you, Charlotte.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13330             The business model as it is applied by our national advertisers, which would be the entire stream that we would be looking at, there are very few exceptions to where only one of the cities is purchased versus two.  I think when Alberta is bought it is 99 percent of the time looked upon as Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13331             It is very, very difficult for us to ‑‑ in fact, it was almost impossible.  We found only one exception to where the two cities were not purchased together when buying Alberta.  So that would lead us to that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13332             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I will go with the usual wisdom of the Commission and I will make you an assumption and please comment on that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13333             What will happen to your Red Deer station if the Commission was to say no for Calgary and yes for Edmonton?  Will you be able to repatriate as much as you are expecting from the Spokane stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13334             MR. MANLOVE:  Well, I will jump in.  There would be some math we would have to do.  As Charlotte mentioned, our application is entirely based on the two and by not being able to offer the two, there is a pro rata loss that we will get by just being able to offer one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13335             So although there will be some revenues gained, they will be measurably less than the division of the two, if that makes sense.  Clearly, Calgary or Edmonton would be much less and in fact in most cases would fall off the map in terms of being purchased.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13336             MS BELL:  I think the other point to make here is that we are not applying for local stations and because we wouldn't be drawing any local ads, it would put us in a precarious situation, I think.  I don't think it would ‑‑ I don't think the revenue addition from getting only one of the two transmitters, given the situation with the national advertisers in Alberta, would be as helpful as one might think.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13337             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I understand that you are not eligible for the CAB small market fund but if that fund was extended to include markets such as Red Deer, could it become an alternative for you to licensing you in rebroad in Calgary and Edmonton?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13338             MS BELL:  As we mentioned earlier, I mean does it help?  Every little bit helps.  However, it doesn't address some of the bigger issues that we have and Red Deer, as we mentioned earlier, is part of the CH stream of stations and because it is part of a large station group it has higher commitments.  It has higher local commitments but it also has priority commitments and we have to find a way to be able to fund that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13339             Commissioner Cram, we were talking about the fact that you might be losing money in Red Deer but you have stations in Toronto.  I would invite you to look at the annual returns that we have filed the last couple of years for our other CH stations in larger markets and take a look at those losses.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13340             So there is a bigger picture here than just the local market and I think that small market fund was created for independent small market stations that weren't affiliated to large groups and specifically dedicated for them to be able to produce local programming.  I think the issues that we are facing are a little larger than that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13341             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13342             Well now you have 10 minutes ‑‑ not 10 minutes ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13343             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ two minutes to sum up your presentation and tell us really why we should grant you the licences that you have asked for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13344             MS DORE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13345             Well first of all, you have heard Stan and Chris discuss the quality of service that CHCA has provided to central Alberta for the past 50 years as well as the ongoing financial difficulty that challenges that station and the CH brand across the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13346             We believe that the proposal we have put forward causes minimal disruption to Calgary and Edmonton by our refraining from accessing local advertising there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13347             At the same time it provides programming diversity to residents of Calgary and Edmonton who don't subscribe to cable, satellite or other technology.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13348             In addition, the commitments we are making to the independent production community and to the Aboriginal community are significant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13349             While we have not opposed the religious station applications, we have expressed concern about the ethnic station applications and we would urge the Commission to make the existing problems faced by CHCA its first priority in this licensing process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13350             CHCA has much higher commitments to the system than independent small market stations and we believe that this is appropriate given its position as part of a large station group but we want to be able to continue the tradition of high quality programming that has defined CHCA and our other CH stations for decades.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13351             Approval of this application is the most effective means to reach that goal for us and for the system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13352             Thank you for your time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13353             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Thank you, Mrs. Dore, Mrs. Bell, Mrs. Williams, Mr. Schmidt and all your team for this presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13354             This is the end of Phase I.  We will begin Phase II after lunch.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13355             Applicants that wish not to appear at Phase II shall meet with the Secretary of the hearing and inform her.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13356             We will come back at 2:00.  So we will adjourn for lunch and we will back at 2:00.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1250 / Suspension à 1250

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1608 / Reprise à 1608

LISTNUM 1 \l 13357             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have to apologize for being late, but there are too many events occurring all at the same time.  But we are now moving with Phase II of this proceeding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13358             I want to say to all the interveners that the Commission not always has questions after the intervention, it is because when the intervention is clear then there is no need to have further discussion.  We, generally speaking, do not have questions, but we surely are recording what you say and it is part of the public record.  It is not because we haven't asked questions that we are not giving it serious consideration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13359             Ms Secretary.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13360             THE SECRETARY:  I would just start with reminding everybody to please turn off your cell phones, beepers, blackberries and other text messaging devices as they are an unwelcome distraction for participants and commissioners and they cause interference on the internal communication system used by our translators.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13361             We have now reached Phase II in which applicants appear in the same order to intervene on competing applications if they wish.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13362             The Miracle Channel Association and CanWest MediaWorks have indicated that they will not appear in Phase II.  Therefore, Crossroads Television System will intervene on the competing application.  You have 10 minutes to make your presentation.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13363             MR. GRAY:  Thank you.  Chairman and members of the Commission, we wish to respond to comments made during the presentation yesterday and questioning in the competing application.  And I am asking our Chairman, Fred Vanstone, to respond.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13364             MR. VANSTONE:  Mr. Chairman, we believe it is necessary for us to respond to the doom and gloom scenario painted by The Miracle Channel with respect to the potential Commission decisions on our applications to operate English‑language religious television program undertakings in Calgary and in Edmonton.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13365             While the applications are being heard together, it is important to keep in mind we are talking about applications for each of Canada's fourth and fifth largest cities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13366             It is difficult to understand how CTS, who doesn't receive any donations in any scenario, could create a major threat to the base of support for The Miracle Channel in these markets.  These are markets that neither CTS nor The Miracle Channel currently serve other than on DTH.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13367             It is difficult to understand how Miracle Channel's current sale of time to broadcast ministries will be adversely affected by decisions concerning markets they don't currently serve.  It is difficult to understand their quote, and I do quote:

"Even worse, The Miracle Channel will stand to lose the many viewers and supporters who rely upon satellite and streaming video on the internet to receive The Miracle Channel." (As Read)


LISTNUM 1 \l 13368             That suggests all the DTH viewers and internet followers of The Miracle Channel reside in Calgary and Edmonton.  This defies logic, particularly at a time when The Miracle Channel is purchasing increased signal distribution outside their broadcast area, even outside the country.  We support The Miracle Channel's ministry.  We do not support The Miracle Channel's assertions and arguments.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13369             CTS has not applied for and does not intend to compete with The Miracle Channel in its licensed Lethbridge, Alberta market.  In fact, CTS has provided, with Miracle Channel's endorsement, the inclusion of Miracle Channel's two flagship programs in our schedule should we be licensed for Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13370             What we are discussing at this hearing is the need and who is best able to provide a 24/7 religious broadcast undertaking to serve each of Calgary and Edmonton.  With these applications before you, you were provided with two very distinctive models.  They are distinctive in three ways.  A local station with local programming commitments or a rebroadcast of a distant signal.  Number two, a commercial religious television undertaking funded by airtime sales to religious broadcasters and the sale of commercials or a donation‑based fundraiser devoting a significant portion of its income to expanding the distribution of its service outside its local market.  And number three, two very different perspectives of the Commission's definition of balanced program obligations of conventional licensed religious broadcasters.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13371             We then come to the reasons for the application.  We believe that as Canada's fourth and fifth largest cities these communities are underserved with respect to faith‑based broadcast services.  With a rapidly growing population and diminished primetime religious program offerings from VisionTV ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13372             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I apologize, Mr. Vanstone, but I think you are going a step forward.  This section of your presentation shall surely go at Phase IV, when you will have an opportunity to rebut everything that has been said against your application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13373             MR. VANSTONE:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  May I just make one further comment then?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13374             Not to be overlooked, it is important to clarify a quote attributed to us by The Miracle Channel with regard to our preference for re‑broadcasters in Ontario.  CTS was successful in gaining rebroads in Ottawa and London only after it was proven no local religious broadcaster was coming forward.  In the current circumstances we are the first in coming forward with a local service application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13375             Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13376             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Gray.  Thank you, Mr. Vanstone.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13377             Ms Secretary, the next applicant.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13378             THE SECRETARY:  I will now ask Rogers Broadcasting Limited to intervene on the competing application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13379             Please reintroduce yourself for the record.  You have 10 minutes to make your presentation.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13380             MR. STRATI:  Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, members of the Commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13381             I am Alain Strati, Vice‑President, Regulatory and Business Affairs for Rogers Media. To my right, to your left, is Leslie Sole, CEO, Rogers Media Television; then Madeline Ziniak, Vice‑President, General Manager for OMNI Television; and Malcolm Dunlop, Vice‑President, Programming and Marketing.  We also have David Campbell, President of Media Buying Services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13382             MR. SOLE:  I have not read this prior.  Mr. Strati just lost his voice and asked me to read this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13383             As part of the written phase of the public hearing process, we filed a detailed intervention requesting clarification about errors we thought channel m had made in the calculation of their revenue projections.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13384             In this phase of the intervention process we would like to further comment on revenue projection issues as well as a number of other flaws we seen in channel m's proposal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13385             Our intervention will focus on four key issues:  programming, revenue projections, tangible benefits and conditions of license.  First, dealing with the programming.  channel m claims to separate and distinct stations for Calgary and Edmonton.  In reality, the proposed programming schedules for the two markets are almost identical.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13386             In addition to a few hours of programming, the main area where there is a difference is with respect to news.  Here their proposal shows a real misunderstanding of the local markets.  They propose to air Mandarin news in Edmonton only and Cantonese news in Calgary only.  Similarly, they propose to air Hindi news in Edmonton and Punjabi news in Calgary.  These decisions needlessly deprive the Cantonese and Punjabi language communities in Edmonton and deprive the Mandarin and Hindi language communities in Calgary from seeing their valuable news programming on a regular basis.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13387             This mistake is all the more telling because of the high level of interest that language communities in each city have in news and the events and the happenings in their cities and in the province.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13388             Revenue forecast.  We would like to return to the revenue forecast by channel m.  Their own expert, Deloitte & Touche, states that news stations and ethnic stations have a discounted cost per rating point.  The Deloitte report recommends that channel m should count on a cost per rating point, which is much lower than the market rate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13389             In their presentation today channel m has not in anyway addressed those expert comments.  They have not clarified why their revenue calculations did not use the cost per rating points stated in their own expert report.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13390             Furthermore, channel m denies that they forgot to deduct the 15 per cent agency commission.  I assure you, Rogers is not a company that reviews government documents and applications looking for typos.  When there is a financial document in front of us and it says gross or it says net, we are inclined to believe that word, we are in no way mischievous.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13391             If the actual revenues that channel m receives reflect the appropriate discount and agency fees, channel m will sustain very large losses over the course of the seven‑year license term.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13392             Conditions of license.  Again, we remain confused about the makeup of the channel m programming in terms of what are the conditions of license.  If an ethnic station commits 68 per cent to ethnic the language of the programming is irrelevant.  Ethnic programming is ethnic programming and so is the origin of that programming irrelevant.  What it means, to us at least, if 68 per cent is ethnic, then 32 per cent must be non‑ethnic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13393             We have dealt with this subtraction for many years.  U.S. programming has been traditionally defined by that which is left after your commitment to ethnic programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13394             Tangible benefits.  Again, we only seek clarity.  Public benefits should always be clear, unequivocal, incremental to the ordinary course of the television operation.  They should be all of those things to your regular business expenditures.  Again clear, unequivocal, separable and incremental.  The wisdom of these principles derives from the transformational or the multiplier effect that they have on the system.  They have to be outside of daily operations.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13395             The vast bulk of channel m's proposed benefits are neither clear, unequivocal or incremental to their ordinary course of spending.  The only promise that seems to be unequivocal and incremental is the commitment of $900,000 to script development and scholarships.  The remaining commitments may be used to subsidize their independent producers or to produce everyday run‑of‑the‑station programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13396             Independent producers are an essential part of channel m, in fact, our hybrid production model.  Usually the independent producer produces a show at their cost, the station shares in the revenue and tries to decrease the risk for that producer.  That is not unequivocal, incremental, but it is clear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13397             channel m is proposing to subsidize their independent producers, but have made no commitment with respect to revenue sharing.  It would be relatively straightforward if they wanted to recover the benefit by retaining a higher share, if not all, of the advertising revenues from any given independently‑produced program.  In fact, they have included this spending as part of the normal operating expenditures.  In their financial projections there is evidence that the spending is in fact not incremental.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13398             As one last point, our intervention was not in opposition to channel m, it was to seek clarification for today's proceeding.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13399             Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13400             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Sole, Mr. Strati, to your group, thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13401             Ms Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13402             THE SECRETARY:  I will now ask MVBC Holdings Limited to intervene on the competing application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13403             Please reintroduce yourself for the record.  You have 10 minutes to make your presentation.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13404             MR. REITMAYER:  Thank you, Chairperson, members of the Commission panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13405             For the record, I am Art Reitmayer, President and Chief Executive Officer of channel m.  With me are Peter Gillespie, channel m's Vice‑President of Operations and Bruce Hamlin, Vice‑President of Sales, sitting behind me is our legal counsel, Greg Kane, and Jeff Keeble, Senior Manager at Deloitte, Touche.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13406             I will respond to the issue Commissioner Cram raised at the end of this intervention, ethnic applications.  We submit that Rogers' application should be denied for a number of reasons, including the fact that the proposed service is not responsive to the distinct multicultural communities in Edmonton and Calgary. A careful reading of the Rogers application will show that they are not proposing to offer local services in Edmonton and Calgary, but rather to provide an Alberta outlet for OMNI programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13407             Rogers sets this scene on the cover of their supplementary brief where we find the subheadings, OMNI Television Alberta and OMNI Television Ontario, rather than what would be more appropriate titles of OMNI Television Calgary and OMNI Television Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13408             What is OMNI Alberta?  Firstly, it is a regional, not a local, service.  For example, on page 16 of OMNI's supplementary brief they describe their service as two separate stations with one programming schedule.  They go on to say that their daily newscasts are to be produced only out of Edmonton, with no local news being produced in Calgary.  There is no more important reflection of the local community than news programming.  A news program produced in Edmonton for broadcast in both Edmonton and Calgary simply does not meet the high standard that the Commission should require for local expression.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13409             There is no other broadcaster licensed in this country which provides local news programming for one major city to serve yet another major city in a particular province.  In fact, in the early 1990s the CBC in Alberta made an attempt to deliver its newscasts to the cities of Edmonton and Calgary from Calgary.  This experiment was cancelled nearly as quickly as it was started due to the precipitous drop in ratings experienced in the Edmonton market and the lack of satisfaction expressed by the Calgary viewers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13410             Suffice it to say, Rogers' overall programming philosophy follows this regional, all productions originating in Edmonton or Calgary will be broadcast in both markets.  As Rogers has stated in its supplementary brief, the ethnic broadcasting policy requires the provision of programming services that reflects and serves the local community.  Regional news and regional and national programming do not serve the needs of the local community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13411             Secondly, it does not appear to us that OMNI is fulfilling the ethnic mandate for minimum hours of third‑language programming.  It is somewhat confusing to calculate how many languages and indeed how many hours of language programming OMNI is proposing.  For example, in the broadcasting notice for this hearing dated December 14, it states that as part of the service Rogers will direct programming to 25 ethnic groups in 19 languages.  In OMNI's supplementary brief, however, they state they will serve 20 ethnic groups in at least 20 languages.  Conversely, the detailed program schedules provided by Rogers with their application called for 20 ethnic groups and 19 languages, which includes English.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13412             Yesterday Rogers agreed to a COL of 20 and 20.  We would point out that 20 languages includes English and is not all third language.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13413             Further, in regards to the number of hours of third‑language programming provided, and in question 7.7 in their application, Rogers states that they will provide a about 75 hours per week of ethnic programming, 50 of which will be available in "third language".  This works out to approximately 40 per cent of their program schedule.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13414             In Schedule 7.1(8) however, Rogers demonstrates that 45 per cent of total programming will be provided in third language.  While Rogers provides conflicting calculations, neither are above the requisite 50 per cent or 63 hours they must provide under the ethnic broadcasting policy.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13415             Thirdly, Rogers has demonstrated a lack of sensitivity to the ethnic communities in Edmonton and Calgary.  This is confirmed both through the third‑language programming they propose to broadcast and through how they plan to form their advisory councils.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13416             Despite the prominence of German, Ukrainian and Polish communities in the markets Rogers' service to these groups is negligible.  For any one of these significant communities they intend to broadcast only two hours of programming per week.  This is astounding considering these language groups are the ethnic pioneers of the Alberta landscape and continue to be the most prominent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13417             In regard to advisory boards, Rogers is proposing to utilize boards that are already in existence for their radio services.  Rogers' radio stations in Calgary are not ethnic and, as such, the boards certainly wouldn't provide independent advice on ethnic television programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13418             Finally, it is difficult to determine if Rogers will be setting up separate advisory councils in Edmonton and Calgary at all.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13419             We also question a number of inconsistencies in their operational proposals.  For example, from section 4.3 of Rogers' application we note that their studio in Edmonton will be larger than their studio in Calgary.  At first glance it doesn't appear their capital model is in alignment with this.  In section 6 of their application Rogers details that their capital spending will be the same in each location.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13420             However, up on closer examination of the financial assumptions submitted, we observe that Edmonton studios will be more capital intensive, as they have allocated $3.8 million in capital to Edmonton and only $1.9 million to Calgary, excluding transmission.  This would seem to be consistent with their statements on page 16 and 17 of their supplementary brief that all OMNI newscasts will originate out of Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13421             However, when looking at the block program detail Rogers provided in their application, they list only 5 hours of news originating in Edmonton and 7.5 hours of news originating in Calgary.  In this schedule not only does Rogers propose to produce more news out of Calgary, they also plan to produce more hours of overall local programming from this location, 16.5 hours of original local programming in nine languages with only 12 hours of local programming in Edmonton.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13422             How then is it possible to produce more news and local programming in Calgary with a smaller capital expenditure, building a smaller studio and having less staff in than the Edmonton location with "24ish staff in Calgary versus 35ish in Edmonton," both including independent producers and freelancers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13423             Further to these inconsistencies are their transmission proposals.  Rogers is applying for C class NTSC licenses in Calgary, but our technical consultants advise that only B class licenses area available.  Rogers also stated in their deficiency questions that they could drop in an alternate frequency on Channel 48 in Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13424             According to the Industry Canada database NTS Channel 48 is not available for broadcast in Calgary.  Further, in Edmonton, Rogers has applied for Channel 56C.  Our research again indicates that NTSC Channel 56 is available. Taken together, these technical challenges would strongly suggest that Rogers has not been sufficiently diligent in their preparation of their applications.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13425             Moreover, a multicultural station must offer predominantly local television programming that directly reflects and serves the unique demographic composition of the ethnic populations in the communities being served.  When that is applied to the present situation it can be seen that Rogers is not properly equipped to serve Edmonton and Calgary's ethnic communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13426             Instead, their application can be best descried as bare minimum.  Minimal local resources, minimal local programming, minimal recognition of prominent ethnic groups, minimal approach to local advisory council, minimal technical research and coordination, minimal recognition of need for Edmonton and Calgary to have their own local ethnic television programming undertakings.  The predominant issue is how a proposed service will reflect and meet the needs of the multicultural, multilingual and multiracial populations of Edmonton and Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13427             It is not a process to select a licensee to provide service to Alberta, rather it is a call for local licensees to serve Edmonton and Calgary.  Rogers has not been responsive to the fundamental nature of this call and we respectfully submit that their application should be denied.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13428             We will now address the applications that were submitted by Crossroads and Miracle Channel.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13429             While we have a significant issue with the broadcasting of religious programming to include so‑called family values or U.S. sitcom programming, this concern has been expressed to the Commission in a different proceeding and need not consume this discussion, as there is a more fundamental problem with both Crossroads and Miracle Channel applications.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13430             That problem is the fact that neither Crossroads nor Miracle Channel by reason of their programming plans demonstrate a contribution to achieving the objectives established in the Broadcasting Act and, in particular, to the production of local and regional programming which the Commission has required in its call for applications in this proceeding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13431             Crossroads, with its extremely limited facilities will provide little in the way of local program origination in either the market of Calgary or Edmonton and will in fact source the bulk of its programs from the U.S. and Ontario.  In the case of The Miracle Channel, it will offer no local program origination and will only carry programming directed at its Lethbridge viewers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13432             For these reasons, we respectfully submit that the Crossroads and Miracle Channel applications should be denied.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13433             CanWest has applied for 30 over‑the‑air transmitters in each of Calgary and Edmonton in order to retransmit its Red Deer television service.  As many have noted in this proceeding, this is essentially a repeat of what Global attempted in 2003 and what was denied in Decision 2004‑98.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13434             At that time, the Commission decided not to permit Global to establish Red Deer transmitters in Calgary and Edmonton concluding that approving the application would have had a long‑term negative impact on existing television services and noting that CanWest is already the largest owner of media companies in Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13435             Approval of the Calgary and Edmonton transmitters would have increased the level of concentration of ownership and cross‑media ownership in the markets.  Again we would observe, as others have, that we see nothing of the record of this proceeding that would lead the Commission to a different conclusion.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13436             Furthermore, the CanWest application, as did the Rogers, Crossroads and Miracle Channel applications, failed to meet the critical requirement that it will achieve the objectives established in the Broadcasting Act and, in particular, the production of local and regional programming for Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13437             In fact, with its plan for increased revenues, not only does CanWest not offer any local programming in Calgary or Edmonton, it proposes to do nothing to increase or in anyway enhance its limited offering in the market of Red Deer, the supposed reason it advanced this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13438             We respectfully submit for these reasons that the CanWest application should be denied.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13439             Thank you.  We would be pleased to respond to any questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13440             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Langford.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13441             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.  Just a couple of questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13442             On page 5, and I don't pretend to be an engineer, but you talk about Rogers' applications for different channels which, in your opinion and your engineers' opinions, don't exist and then conclude by saying, "taken together these technical challenges would strongly suggest that Rogers had not been sufficiently diligent in the preparation of their application."


LISTNUM 1 \l 13443             Could it not just as easily suggest that your engineers missed something?  I mean, I find it a bit of a leap that, you know, your engineers came up with something and their engineers came up with something else and we are to take from that a kind of lack of due diligence. Isn't it going just a little too far until we have had our chance to put our own engineers to work on this?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13444             MR. REITMAYER:  I will ask Peter Gillespie to add to the answer that I am about to provide.  But this is not just our opinion, it is actually the opinion of the technical consultants we engaged to review the applications, our applications, review what we submitted.  We did a fairly diligent process in ascertaining the channels that were available for us in both the markets of Calgary and Edmonton and also the paired digital services.  And it was their response to that review that resulted in our comments here today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13445             Peter.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13446             MR. GILLESPIE:  Thank you.  Commissioner, yes, we were very surprised when we saw the frequencies that the other applicants were applying for because we fully expected, with what we went through with our technical consultants, that they would be the same channel.  That lead me to a, what I believe, quite a thorough investigation with our technical consultants asking them back, well why is that possible when you said we could only be on this channel at these frequencies?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13447             In which case, he did some follow‑up work.  Now, he is dealing with an Industry Canada database that the technical consultants deal with.  Yes, there could be issues between that database and the internal Industry Canada database that they use.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13448             And actually, not getting our second DTV allocation there was a bit of conflict. But for even simple things like C class to B class, the amount of power that Rogers is suggesting would essentially, in his words, obliterate, you know, the rest of a lot of broadcast signals out there.  And the technical work that would have to be done on interference zones would just be phenomenal.  He said it just wouldn't be allowed by Industry Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13449             So yes, I did follow‑up research and actually got the NTSC & DTV allocation tables to check them myself and I have them here.  And, lo and behold, there are frequencies we applied for and the ones that Miracle Channel applied for exist.  The rest, I am not sure where they got them from.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13450             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, perhaps you will be surprised.  I mean, there are other engineering opinions out there and there are other letters from Industry Canada.  But I suppose I would have preferred you not put that line in.  I just, in my time sitting up here, we have seen a lot of differences on engineering opinions and the information you have given on the amount of power, for example, I find more interesting than this sort of sense that there may be a lack of due diligence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13451             I don't want to lecture, it just seems going a little too far for me.  I mean, my goodness, there is enough lawyers in here, if you gave us each the Constitution we could come up with a lot of different opinions, but that doesn't mean we are not doing due diligence, just some of us are more optimistic than others.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13452             Another one that bothered me and was this, and I understand the contest here so I am not trying to lecture, but the reference to Rogers' application leaving out the German and the Ukrainian communities or not sufficiently supporting them or sufficiently recognizing.  Isn't that just a decision?  I mean, you choose your communities, they choose their communities.  There is, you know, lots to choose from.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13453             I mean, your own panel member ‑‑ I forget her name ‑‑ said, you know, the people in the nursing homes who are over 80 will be delighted to get a dose of the old languages again, you know.  Well, maybe they didn't see that as a priority and maybe you did.  You are certainly onto something with our new Chairman so, you know, you are on the cutting edge.

‑‑‑ LAUGHTER / RIRES

LISTNUM 1 \l 13454             To me, I think I would have stopped short, at just indicating that you have different approaches.  But I don't mean to lecture, those two statements I found went a little too far.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13455             MR. REITMAYER:  Thank you, and it is not taken in that fashion at all.  I think though, as a point of clarification, I don't believe that Ms Sembaliuk left it at only that people in seniors' homes are the ones that are going to appreciate the German language.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13456             She indicated that it is a language that is spoken in the schools and taught in the schools and that there is additional generations.  But I think one of the things that she was pointing out in her comments was the fact that, in fact, it was an additional way and an additional offering to the community that seniors that may be confined would find something in that programming.  So it really was something that enhanced as opposed to saying that was the only market that would exist for that type of programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13457             And additionally, it isn't our point to be petty on these things.  It is a competitive license and when you look at the communities that exist in Alberta this is the phase of the process where one would identify what we perceive to be differences in that application. Rogers was before you just preceding us and they indicated what they felt were shortcomings in our application and in Phase IV we will happily reply to all of those.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13458             But again, they identified what they believe to be issues, as have we and we have not tried to be petty about it, we just identify where we see differences and things that may be lacking with respect to how the approach to the community is being taken based on research that we provided with our applications.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13459             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, we will leave it at that.  That is eloquently said and we will give you the last word, we rarely do, but today we will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13460             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13461             Oh wait a minute, maybe not.  Thank you, Mr. Chair.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13462             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for you.

‑‑‑ LAUGHTER / RIRES

LISTNUM 1 \l 13463             I know that Commissioner Cram and our legal counsel want to ask you questions.  But regarding the usage of the C channels, 38 and 56C in Calgary and Edmonton, the note that I have here is that Industry Canada will certify these frequencies at the applied power level and in the category they have filed.  So maybe the allotment plans suggest they are B channels, but the engineers that Rogers used had found a way to improve the usage of the spectrum in a different manner than yours has.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13464             I have learned over the years that engineering is not only a science, it is also an art.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13465             Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13466             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13467             I just wanted to go back to my question of before and indeed the same issue was raised in Rogers' intervention against you, the CPR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13468             MR. REITMAYER:  Yes.  Commissioner Cram, would you prefer that we deal with that now or in Phase IV?  I mean, we are happy ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 13469             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I would prefer you did it now.  In fact, you may have noticed that we have been addressing in Phase I a lot of the interventions and getting answers to them so we could move the debate ahead and actually get to the bottom of the issues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13470             So given the fact that you did not reply to the Rogers' intervention, I don't know what I am to make of that and I would ask you that you would provide me with your explanation now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13471             MR. REITMAYER:  I am happy to do that.  We have got here with us both Bruce Hamlin, our Vice‑President of Sales, and Jeff Keeble, with Deloitte & Touche to add to any comments that I may have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13472             I have had the opportunity to review the letter that you were referring to.  And it is not anything, again, intended to impugn anybody, but I do note that it is public in Marketing Magazine that MBS does all the buying for Rogers Media, so it is something that is in the public record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13473             With respect to the third paragraph, I believe that is what we were discussing earlier in the proceeding, I will ask Bruce Hamlin to begin the discussion and then perhaps Jeff Keeble can add to any other further questions you may have on that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13474             MR. HAMLIN:  I think the point of clarity around the cost per point that has been talked about to some detail here really revolves around our approach to English and non‑English programming on our schedule.  It is very clear in our financial expectations that those are around a certain number of hours in our program schedule, but there is a significant number of hours that are not detailed on that financial projection.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13475             We use a company called Ipsos‑Reid, we have for the last three years, we continue to go forward with it on audience measurement.  Audience measurement for us is extremely important to clarify the audiences associated with our non‑English programs.  In order to appeal to the agency community we need to put those audience numbers into a rating point system.  We have done that, we have provided that to Deloitte & Touche based on a 50/50 share.  We price it at a lot lower cost per point than we would against our English schedule.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13476             We have provided, and I will give you the example, Deloitte & Touche $130 cost per rating point that we estimate we would gain out of our prime non‑English part of our program schedule.  We apply a $65 cost per point against an audience that we would see out of our non‑English programming in non‑primetime.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13477             If you take a look at the 126 hours of 47 hours in our financial document and you take a look at the other 79 hours and you take the average, you will get to $128 a point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13478             I will give that to Mr. Keeble to just clarify.  He is the one that wrote the report.  But that is our way of looking at the community as an entire program schedule, not just certain number of hours that we are selling.  We are really trying to reach out and include all of our programming to the communities that are the ones that are going to be supporting us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13479             Mr. Keeble.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13480             MR. KEEBLE:  Yes.  In preparing our report and reviewing the overall reasonableness of the revenue projections that were provided by Multivan Management we did look at several factors and areas in order to assess the revenue projects and one of those was the cost per rating point.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13481             In order for us to assess the reasonableness of those cost per rating points against the market we did have Multivan prepare a blended cost per point average that we could then compare to where the market was.  As Mr. Hamlin has explained, that did come out to $128 for Calgary and $101 for Edmonton.  So that was part of our review.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13482             The additional factors and areas that we looked at in order to assess the overall reasonableness of the revenue projections were the overall market and historical and forecasted revenue in the spot market going forward.  As well, we looked at the potential share that Multivan would capture in those markets.  In addition to that we also had detailed conversations with management to get their explanations and reasons for their major assumptions within the revenue projection.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13483             We also did review the results of the two surveys that were commissioned by Multivan, both Ipsos‑Reid and the Callaghan surveys, in order to assess the overall supply and demand in the market.  Finally, we also did look at the population and economic factors within the market.  Basically, looking at all those factors combined we did conclude that the revenue projections were reasonable.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13484             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Can I just put it into grade three math for me?  If I read your report at page 29, and this is the Deloitte & Touche report, you talk about the projections of the market share and it is the first full paragraph.  Well, I can even just quote the letter where they say you should have ‑‑ CPR will be lower than the market.  But then you referred to the specific numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13485             What you have really done is multiply the higher CPR by your 47 hours, half that amount by your third‑language or ethnic programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13486             MR. HAMLIN:  The non‑English.. (off microphone)

LISTNUM 1 \l 13487             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  The third‑language?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13488             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Could you put your microphone on?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13489             MR. HAMLIN:  Sorry.  Yes, that is correct, so the higher cost per point.  If we are taking the Calgary example, we are looking at 47 hours at $179 a point and 79 hours at roughly $95 a point or $97 a point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13490             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13491             MR. HAMLIN:  And if you average those together over the 126 hours you have $128 a point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13492             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  That is where you came up with your ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13493             MR. HAMLIN:  Yes, that is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13494             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Perfect, the mathematical question answered.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13495             MR. HAMLIN:  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13496             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Williams.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13497             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good afternoon, Mr. Reitmayer and panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13498             In your application you emphasize that strong western‑based ownership would be a cornerstone of what you would be offering and that, in your view, western‑based voices and ownership have all but disappeared with all decisions for television operations now emanating from the east.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13499             Could you please, for the benefit of the panel, could you explain to us why would western ownership result in a company being more in touch with the local programming needs?  Why would your application me more in touch with local programming needs in Edmonton and Calgary with a head office in Vancouver?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13500             MR. REITMAYER:  Well, I think when you look at it there is no question that, you know, when you look across Canada there is certainly greater connection between the provinces of British Columbia and Alberta than the eastern provinces.  We often hear about the disenfranchisements of western Canada and that includes both British Columbia and Alberta.  So to suggest that perhaps our views are more closely aligned I think is a fair comment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13501             I would also place before you the fact that, you know, with respect to us we are western‑based, but we are also individuals that have spent time, if not lived in Alberta, and we are only one hour away.  So the issues that are relative to Alberta often are the same issues that we face in British Columbia.  So there is a whole lot of reasons why we look at western‑based ownership and western voices being important.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13502             Additionally, within the broadcasting landscape, there really isn't any western voices and it is important that that diversity of opinion be there as well.  Because as we often hear, there is a difference of opinion for western Canadians and eastern Canadians.  And to bring a western company and enhance it and help it to grow, I think is an important facet of what is happening here today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13503             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you for that.  I just need a little bit more clarification on how you would have a better understanding of local programming needs as opposed to a competitor.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13504             MR. REITMAYER:  Well, in terms of local programming, if you look at how we have established the structure within the operations that we have planned.  Ours, first off, are not going to be regional in nature at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13505             So while we are also western‑based there would be independent individuals working in each one of those markets and individuals responsible for decisions in each one of those markets, responsible for overall decisions, responsible for news decisions, programming decisions in each and everyone of those markets.  So I mean I think that is also an important differentiator in our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13506             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13507             That is my question, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13508             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13509             Legal Counsel?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13510             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Mr. Chairman?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13511             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, Mr. Langford.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13512             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I am just looking here at section 3(1) of the Broadcasting Act and it is entitled, "The Broadcasting Policy for Canada" and reads:


"Declaration:  It is hereby declared, as the Broadcasting Policy for Canada, that the Canadian broadcasting system shall be effectively owned and controlled by Canadians." (As Read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 13513             I guess my question following up from what Mr. Williams has been asking, how much farther than that do we have to go?  What are you suggesting?  I mean, are you suggesting that should there be an opportunity for you in Toronto that somehow you would be less qualified to bring ethnic programming to Toronto because you live farther away from it, that you wouldn't be able to understand how to do it?  I doubt that, I mean from the success you have had in Vancouver I should think you wouldn't ever say that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13514             So I am not quite sure what your point is here.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13515             MR. REITMAYER:  I don't think that is what I am suggesting, that we be necessarily precluded.  We are not looking at Ontario right now, but we do think it is important that when you say that the system should be owned by Canadians that it be owned by Canadians from all regions of Canada wherever possible.  We have seen that change dramatically over the years.  There has been significant consolidation within the industry and I am not commenting that that is good or bad, it is just the reality of what has happened.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13516             But I do think it is important where you have a company such as ours where you have a group of individuals that are committed to what we are doing and would like to see the opportunity to add that voice to it, that perhaps they be provided that opportunity and that is a positive thing as opposed to anything that is negative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13517             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So you are looking for diversity of voices, which the Broadcasting Act also mandates us to go forward on.  But it is not really then an ownership question, is it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13518             I mean, I think it is important, because what I want to say to you is, and I am not trying to be pedantic here, but we are bound by this Act, we can't further parse this.  We can't say ‑‑ and there are different types of Canadians and some make better owners in different areas ‑‑ even if we wanted to say that, we are not mandated to say that.  Once you have got your passport you are in, you have made section 3(1) whether you got here 200 years ago or yesterday and wherever you end up living.  Now, that is how I read this.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13519             But I do understand, if your point is there is room for companies and new companies and diverse voices, and part of the Broadcasting Act is an ambition to further that, I understand that.  If that is your point, I understand that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13520             MR. REITMAYER:  I think that is the majority of our point and the fact that it is one of the questions that was done as part of our survey and it was an opinion expressed by some of the respondents to that survey.  And part of the reason you do surveys is to find out what people's minds are saying and we have expressed that in our submission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13521             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Little bit like in the old journalist days, what we used to call a thumb‑sucker, isn't it?  I mean, do you prefer your local share for the outsider sort of thing.  But anyway, I am glad we had a chance to agree that we stop at Canadian, at least for ownership, and then there are further ramifications for diversification of voices.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13522             But I think your counsel may want to correct me on everything I have just said and I would love to give him that opportunity.

‑‑‑ LAUGHTER / RIRES


LISTNUM 1 \l 13523             MR. KANE:  I certainly won't correct you, Commissioner Langford, and I will agree with you in terms of the Broadcasting Act speaking in terms of Canadians.  But it also speaks in terms of diversity and the Commission itself any number of times and any number of decisions has talked about the desire for diversity in terms of ownership, in terms of voices in a particular community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13524             Then when we take the Broadcasting Act and apply it to the circumstances of this particular proceeding and our application, we also have to have reference to the ethnic broadcasting policy.  In the ethnic broadcasting policy there is absolutely no doubt at all of the Commission's clear preferences for local programming.  And for example, in paragraph 40:

"The Commission is of the view that a primary responsibility of over‑the‑air ethnic radio and television stations should be to serve and reflect their local community." (As Read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 13525             Our point is a fairly simple one, Commissioner Langford, and that is that the best reflection of the local community is by owners who are most attuned to that community.  And in this situation we feel that western‑based ownership is an important element in that approach and that determination the Commission will have to make.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13526             And I would also point out that we have very strong surveyed information that was gathered by Ipsos‑Reid and talked about the strong desire of the communities in both Calgary and Edmonton for western‑based ownership and they would be looked upon most favourably by the public in both Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13527             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Would you agree, Mr. Kane, though that a non‑western owner could staff its station with westerners, local managers, local reporters, local technicians and achieve exactly the same impact?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13528             I am thinking, for example, of I think it is NewCap isn't it, the Maritime ownership group that have so many well‑loved western radio stations right here in Alberta.  I don't think anyone would suggest that there is a problem there with local reflection.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13529             MR. KANE:  And we are not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13530             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So are you suggesting that local reflection cannot be achieved by an outside owner?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13531             MR. KANE:  No, absolutely not.  But it all depends on where decisions are being made.  And in our case the decisions are going to be made in Calgary and Edmonton and to the extent that they will be made outside of that decision making management group, that they will be made in Vancouver.  And the people in those communities are going to be more closely attuned to what the audience and the public want in both Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13532             This is the intervention phase, we have heard nothing in terms of our competitors' applications that say that the key decisions will be made in Calgary and Edmonton.  They are going to be made in Toronto.  They are not going to be made in these two cities and they are not going to be made in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13533             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, I think what we have heard is ‑‑ we haven't heard where they are going to be made, is that what you are suggesting?  So you are drawing the assumption that they will be made in Toronto?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13534             MR. KANE:  Well, there is certainly nothing on the record that says they are going to be made here.  There is no independent operation that has been put before you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13535             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Is there anything on the record which says it will be made in Toronto?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13536             MR. KANE:  Well, they have to be made somewhere.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13537             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Just like that question of control, sometimes it just isn't anywhere.

‑‑‑ LAUGHTER / RIRES

                 That has worked to the benefit of some licensees in recent past as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13538             I think we have done enough damage on the legal front.  I thank you very much, Mr. Kane, for your wise counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13539             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Langford.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13540             Only for the record, at least there is an Alberta‑based applicant based in Lethbridge that is part of this proceeding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13541             Legal counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13542             MR. McCALLUM:  Yes.  I would just like to follow‑up on one exchange that you had with Commissioner Cugini I believe earlier today.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13543             She had asked about the scenario of licensing one religious service as a result of this process, yourselves and CanWest.  And I understood from your answer that that scenario would be problematic for yourselves.  But I just wondered if it was one of the religious television stations and yourselves and not CanWest what would the impact of that scenario be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13544             MR. REITMAYER:  Again, I think in response to that question we worked through a number of different scenarios of which it really is dependent on which religious service and the type or programming that they would be relying on from a fundraising or a funding perspective, whether it is revenue generation.  I mean, if it comes down to where the services are relying on U.S. programming, syndicated sales type programming to generate revenue it is more problematic than not.  So both have applied for different types of licenses, both Miracle and CTS, so it really depends on the types of religious programming that we are really I guess talking about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13545             And if it is applied strictly in the fashion that, you know, we have a religious broadcaster that is truly broadcasting 00-40 religious programming as it is intended in the religious broadcasting policy, then I think that it would be less problematic.  It is when the deviation from that practice or the type of programming that they provide occurs that you really run into issues of competition with respect to both program acquisition and revenue generation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13546             MR. McCALLUM:  So assuming compliance by both of them, for the purpose of the question, so that neither would stray from, you know, religious programming or the mandate they are given, whether it is religious or 75/25, I infer from your answer that the impact of Miracle Channel would be less because they are more donation reliant than if Crossroads received a license here.  Is that a fair inference from what you were saying?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13547             MR. REITMAYER:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13548             MR. McCALLUM:  And just take it one step further.  If Crossroads were successful and yourselves were successful as well, is that a scenario that you think would be very problematic, slightly problematic or could you just sort of characterize?  Could you live together or..?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13549             MR. REITMAYER:  It would really depend on the type of license that is issued.  When you look at, you know, some of the documents that are submitted, and that is all we really have to go on is documents that were filed, there is indication in the submission that part of the reason for looking to, you know, acquire an Alberta license for Crossroads is to allow them to be more competitive in a syndicated program acquisition.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13550             It really would depend on which direction that would take as to how competitive, both from a program acquisition and a revenue generation perspective, that it would be with the type of service that we have.  Because again, we all acknowledge that there is some cross‑subsidization that is acknowledged in the policy and everything else.  So it really would depend on what direction that took.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13551             MR. McCALLUM:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13552             MR. LANGFORD:  Mr. Chairman, may I follow‑up on that?  It is going to be a long day, I apologize.

‑‑‑ LAUGHTER / RIRES

LISTNUM 1 \l 13553             I guess it is now or never.  I mean, is there a point in the various licensing scenarios where you want to drop out?  In other words, if I say to you today we are going to license CanWest as they have asked, the rebroads, and one of these, well, let us take the one that worries you the most, the Crossroads, that are selling advertisements, and one ethnic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13554             Are you saying you want out, that it is not a scenario that you can succeed in and therefore you are no longer interested?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13555             MR. REITMAYER:  I think the original question that was asked, Commissioner Langford, was are our business plans based on our license being the only one that is granted?  And the answer to that was yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13556             When you look at what we are looking to provide in the way of service to the various communities, both Calgary and Edmonton, there is an impact and there is a hierarchy of impact, if you like, that starts at the top that CanWest, if it is licensed, I would suggest that it would be very very difficult, impossible, for us to operate and achieve any kind of revenue returns that would support our service and the needs for that service to provide what it is going to do if they are licensed as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13557             And as you go backward from that Crossroads, again, because there is in their scheduled proposed syndicated programs, it does have an impact on what we are looking to do.  If the license that is granted is in fact a religious license and it adheres strictly to 00-40, then an over‑the‑air broadcaster, because the differentiation is Miracle is looking at digital and, you know, syndicated, if it is strictly that, NTSC, we could both exist in the market.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13558             It is when there is deviation into the syndicated area that it does cause some problems.  And is that going to affect our business plan?  Yes, we would have to go back and take a look, depending on the license that is granted at that time.  But again, in response to your question, our submission was based on us being the only applicant that is granted.  That is what we have come forward with, that is what our revenue assumptions are based on and that is what our programming commitments for local production and service provision in each of the markets is based on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13559             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I understand that and I am very grateful for you, I think you made that very very clear.  I guess what I am asking you in the vernacular is the second question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13560             If we decide ‑‑ and I understand what you are saying, I understand it would have a horrific impact on you, you have been very clear twice on that and I am grateful for it ‑‑ but if we decide, as the Chairman says, in our wisdom, to license the CanWest application, both of them, and Crossroads say or Miracle, but let us just say Crossroads because it seems to be one you are a little more worried about, and one ethnic, you or OMNI, are you still in the running?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13561             MR. REITMAYER:  If I could, I would like to come back to you in Phase IV and I will answer that question and I think I will be able to answer it in a very fulsome fashion if that would work?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13562             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That is fair enough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13563             Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13564             MR. KANE:  Commissioner Langford, I wonder in terms of fairness and process could we also ask the question in return would we be held to all the conditions of license that we have been asked to commit to in this process?  Because there are important legal issues in terms of fairness and process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13565             We have put forward an application, as Mr. Reitmayer has indicated, based on the proposition that we would be the one licensed.  And as a result of this process we have, and properly so, been asked to commit to conditions of license that reflect what we put in our application.  We have agreed to those conditions of license and now we are being faced with an entirely different proposition.  So my question in return, which I trust is a fair one, is would we be relieved of all those conditions of license?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13566             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, I can give an opinion.  Usually we ask questions, but I think yours is a fair one.

‑‑‑ LAUGHTER / RIRES


LISTNUM 1 \l 13567             So much easier to ask than to answer.  I am speaking only for myself, I can't give an opinion on the Commission obviously, but you have asked me.  I see this as a competitive process.  If we had put out a public notice which said we are only going to license one applicant and then at the last second we sprang on you, ha ha, we are going to license three, I should think you would have a strong case in asking for some sort of relief.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13568             But as we never said that, as we said we are calling for applications, in response I believe to the Crossroads' original application, I think it would be up to you to anticipate scenarios and to anticipate ‑‑ you are experienced broadcasters now, as you have told us ‑‑ that more than one could be licensed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13569             So my starting position, I too will give it some thought, but my starting position would be I think unfortunately that, no, this isn't a kind of bidding process at the last moment, that it is within our jurisdiction and purview to license more than one, that our history indicates that we often do license more than one and so that if you were to be licensed you would be expected to adhere to all of the conditions that you said you would.  So I guess I will await your answer in Phase IV, unless you have something more to say, Mr. Kane.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13570             MR. KANE:  Well, I don't want to perhaps pursue this unduly at this stage, but I think a fair reading of the public notice could lead us to another conclusion and that is that it starts by calling for applications for licenses to carryon programming undertakings to serve Edmonton and/or Calgary.  It then speaks in terms of licenses.  We interpreted that in terms of being two cities, for Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13571             Because when you then read on in the public notice it says, for example:

"It should be noted that in making this call the Commission has not reached any conclusion with respect to the licensing of such a service," (As Read)

in the singular.  And in my respectful submission, a reasonable interpretation of this public notice is that there will be a service for Calgary and a service for Edmonton and that would lead the Commission then to issue broadcasting licenses in the plural.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13572             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, Mr. Kane, as ever you add new energy.

‑‑‑ LAUGHTER / RIRES


LISTNUM 1 \l 13573             And I think what we will do is await your answer in Phase IV, but also our Commission counsel will be looking at this and I am sure the Chairman will want to put some process around this.  But I don't have the public notice in front of me now and I haven't read it with that in mind and I certainly don't want to give a legal opinion that is not a Commission opinion off the sort of cuff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13574             But you as usual, as I say, brought new insight and new energy to the process. So I think we will have to wait on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13575             Do you agree Mr. McCallum?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13576             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for the time being and we will move to the next intervener.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13577             THE SECRETARY:  This concludes Phase II of the public hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13578             Before proceeding with Phase III, for the record, CanWest MediaWorks has filed their proposed condition of license for CHCA‑TV Red Deer.  This document will be available in the examination room.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13579             Now we will proceed with Phase III in which other parties appear in the order set out in the agenda to present their interventions.  Please note that the intervener, Canadian Film & Television Production Association listed in the agenda, has informed us that they will not be appearing at the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13580             I will now ask Joe Media Group Inc., Fellowship of Christian Assemblies of Canada and Alberta Motion Picture Industries Association to come to the presentation table.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13581             We will start with Joe Media Group Inc.  You have 10 minutes to make your presentation.  Please introduce yourself for the record.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13582             MR. NOVAK:  Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and commissioners. My name is Joe Novak. Bienvenue à Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13583             The Chinook that we ordered for you unfortunately is a bit late and it seems will not be appearing.  That said, thank you for the opportunity to allow me to appear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13584             I am speaking on behalf of our television production company to support the application for establishing television stations and services in Calgary and Edmonton by CTS to provide local, values‑based and religious programming.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13585             I am the President and CEO of Joe Media Group, we are a company based here in Calgary, four years old, owned by Calgarians.  Our company's primary business is Alberta‑based programming for regional, national and international audiences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13586             I want to give you a very brief context of what we do, three of our most recent productions in high definition.  We just completed a performance special with Joni Mitchell, The Fiddle & The Drum.  I am sure you have read a lot of press about what Joni Mitchell's been doing with Alberta Ballet.  We are just in the process of completing a documentary, a co‑production with the New York Times and Canadian Broadcasting Corporation called The Battle for Baghdad.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13587             And in four weeks we start filming a movie here in Alberta in Coleman and in Calgary called The Secret of the Nutcracker.  We are with the Alberta Ballet.  We have taken The Nutcracker ballet off the stage and have a screenplay written by John Murrell, the noted author, which is set in Alberta in 1943 and features, of course, the music of Tchaikovsky, but it has full character and dialogues.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13588             One other quick note, a recent documentary, God Only Knows: Same Sex Marriage, recently won the best Canadian entry at the Banff 2006 Banff World Television Festival.  It is a story of how a gay pastor from West Vancouver and the Alberta‑based Chief Executive Officer of the Concerned Christian Coalition physically exchanged lives for 10 days to explore the issues of same‑sex marriage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13589             But today I am here to offer support to the Crossroads application for a number of reasons and to offer some recommendations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13590             This application promises the presentation of new spiritual and faith‑based local issues, stories and culture which explore and address ethical and moral matters that, to our communities, are of vital importance  These are new types of local and regional programming for communities that are now clearly, in my opinion, underserved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13591             I think there is no question today there is more and more interest in spiritual matters and issues of faith by audiences and by Canadians.  CTS promises to deliver a primetime balanced schedule that also includes a variety of ministry programming from different faiths.  And I think I wrote to you, Lord knows in this province there is a great diversity of different faiths and opinions.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13592             Unless one is an independent producer one cannot underestimate the significance of having a broadcaster and program decision makers who live in the community.  As you are well aware, the recent trend by broadcasters has been to decrease local production and centralize decision making in Toronto.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13593             CTS wisely has plans to have regional offices in both Calgary and Edmonton.  I would thus urge the Commission to confirm with CTS that these Alberta offices will have the authority to move projects forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13594             Being rooted in Edmonton and Calgary with a regional manager who is of Alberta with decision making powers for the development and production of television will encourage and enhance made‑in‑Alberta programming.  While saving costs of travel to pitch program ideas in Toronto CTS will be able to create and build strong relationships by better understanding not only the needs of the audience, but the needs of the creative community here in Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13595             Being able to have decision makers accessible, face to face, also means they can work with producers to better focus their ideas, to meet the programming requirements,  But also, having them here makes them more accountable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13596             For independent production companies, such as ours, the commitment to spend a minimum of $300,000 on program concept development here in Alberta is of significant importance.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13597             Programmers, as you are well aware, make decisions based on concept, a creative team, projected budget and a financing plan.  But if one cannot get past the first stage of being able to properly and fully develop a program idea then all is for naught.  Being able to receive financial support to develop an idea is the key to television programming success.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13598             We would like to suggest however, that there needs to be ongoing development funds throughout the CTS license term with the possibility of increasing the level of financial commitment to allow for even more development of high‑quality programming from Alberta producers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13599             Further in line with program development is people development, thus I am pleased that CTS is taking our company suggestion to create an annual $30,000 a year mentorship fund.  This fund is to be administered by the Alberta Motion Picture Industries Association and will focus on giving Alberta's emerging producers the opportunity to be mentored by more experienced industry professionals.  The result, I suggest, would be an increase in the production gene pool of experienced Alberta producers to produce more Alberta‑based programming.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13600             I think the mentorship program and the development fund initiatives presented here by Crossroads are ones that I would strongly urge the Commission to consider for all new and to be renewed broadcast licenses.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13601             Our company is also pleased by the commitment from CTS to spend a minimum of $1 million per year in license fees on Alberta‑based production for each year of the license term.  We trust that this commitment will reflect reasonable license fees in line with industry standards for similar sized broadcasters.  I suggest that its benefit be made a condition of license if you see fit to approve their application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13602             We also think it would be most helpful to know how much of the projected Canadian program expenditures over seven years will be allocated to Alberta independent production as opposed to in‑house.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13603             Finally, a word about Dick Gray, President of CTS and Drew Martin, the Regional Manager of Alberta, we very much appreciate the time they have taken to come and meet with us over the past 18 months.  They have been open to our ideas about their application to the CRTC and to their future programming plan.  It is for these reasons that we support their application to have licenses here in Alberta.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13604             Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13605             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Novak.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13606             We will hear the two other interveners then we will ask questions to the panel.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13607             REV. LUCAS:  Mr. Chairman and commissioners, my name is John Lucas.  I have the privilege of being the longest serving clergyman in the City of Calgary.  Being a former Torontonian and an eastern transplant, having ministered for nearly 60 years in this city and have served the domination as well, I am here today to express the support of the Fellowship of Christian Assemblies, which is a denomination mainly based in Alberta of over 425 clergy and congregation in Western Canada, as to our support of the application of CTS.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13608             Alberta has long been considered the bible belt of Canada where it is reported that 80 per cent of the Alberta population have some form of religious affiliation.  Our city is growing at a very fast rate on an average of 100 people a day.  And I have read in the news this last week that one of the provincial cabinet ministers indicated that in Edmonton alone that they have had 30,000 of African extraction, former Montreal and Toronto residents, who have moved to the Edmonton area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13609             I would like to suggest this afternoon support for the unique programming, that CTS be granted into the Calgary and Edmonton market.  We are told that approximately 250,000 persons are outside the cable linking area in Alberta and they are only able to get programming by analogue or using rabbit ears.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13610             We also think of the present time in our own City of Calgary that one hour each morning there are three competitive religious programs on three different channels.  It would be far better if we had the opportunity of being aired throughout the day, so when it is a day like this we can bundle up in front of the fire and watch all day.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13611             I would also like to remind you of the family‑friendly values that are based on this situation with no dramatic depiction or language inappropriate for children and also no overt sexuality of language that would be of concern to anyone.  I know there are different denominations who are involved in the schedule because there are a wide variety of faiths and opinions through the multi‑faith and even non‑Christian programs as well as programs promoting open dialogue among all religions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13612             I would encourage the support of this application and we thank you for your concern.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13613             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Reverend Lucas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13614             We will hear the next intervener.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13615             MR. BROOKS:  Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13616             First, let me thank you sincerely for the opportunity to speak with you today.  My name is Alan Brooks, I am the Executive Director of the Alberta Motion Picture Industries Association.  We are a non‑profit association also known as AMPIA.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13617             We have represented Alberta's independent production community since 1973.  From producers, directors, screenwriters and production designers to cinematographers, editors and composers AMPIA's role is to make every effort possible to ensure the continued growth and development of Alberta's film and television production industry at all creative levels.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13618             We strongly believe that it is independent producers from regions like Alberta who provide the true diversity to the Canadian broadcasting system, creating and producing a wide range of programming that serves the needs and interests of all Canadians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13619             AMPIA also believes it is a privilege to be granted a broadcast license.  As we stated at previous Commission hearings, the production landscape in Alberta continues to be a challenge.  Our members continue to struggle to secure the necessary financing to develop and create high quality compelling Canadian programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13620             While we leave the Commission with the final decision to determine if new television services should enter the Alberta marketplace, AMPIA is here today to offer support for the application by Crossroads Television System with reasonable recommendations for adjustments and conditions of license.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13621             AMPIA was particularly pleased that Dick Gray, the President of CTS, travelled to Alberta on more than one occasion to meet with our members in person and to listen to our suggestions for meaningful benefits.  AMPIA was pleased to see the commitment from CTS to spend $9.6 million over the license term with Alberta‑based production companies.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13622             From discussions with the executives of CTS we understand that this commitment will reflect reasonable license fees to allow for the production of high‑quality programming and then Alberta producers will be able to retain the rights to that programming.  AMPIA respectfully recommends that this be a condition of license.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13623             AMPIA is also very supportive of the plan by CTS to have offices in both Calgary and Edmonton with Alberta‑based station management.  We understand that these Alberta managers will have the authority to move projects forward and not simply be drop‑off points for forwarding to head office in Toronto.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13624             AMPIA also appreciates the additional CTS promises of an annual $30,000 mentorship fund for emerging producers to be administered by AMPIA, plus an annual meeting between CTS and our board of directors to review the station's previous year's performance.  We are told that these meetings will be scheduled each year of the license term and we also recommend that these be made conditions of license.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13625             We applaud the Commission's annual reporting requirements for broadcasters allowing an easy snapshot of broadcaster hours of programming as well as regional snapshots as to where projects are licensed.  AMPIA recommends that this requirement also apply to the CTS stations in Alberta if the licenses are granted.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13626             We do have one major concern with the CTS applications and it is related to the development of Canadian talent.  There continues to be a critical need for meaningful development dollars in our region, dollars that are truly needed to nurture our key creative people of the future.  Although we appreciate the CTS commitment of $300,000 of development funding in the first year of their license, their commitment fails to address the ongoing need for the continuous development of Canadian talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13627             It is AMPIA's hope that Dick Gray and the executives from CTS will find a way to expand on this commitment beyond the first year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13628             Again, we thank the Commission for the opportunity to be here today and we would be pleased to answer any questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13629             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Brooks.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13630             Mr. Brooks, in your oral presentation, I am going to your page 3, at the top of page 3, where you were asking the Commission that we make it a condition of license that you retain the rights of the programming produced by the independent producers.  Those are terms of trade and I know that the Commission, so far, has never entered into the terms of trade between the various associations and its licensee.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13631             Are you asking us to revise that policy that the Commission has used over the last say 25 or 35 years?  Mr. Novak will also reply to that question if he so wishes.  And Reverend Lucas, he could contribute something, but I think these two gentlemen at least are involved in independent production so they surely have an interest in the question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13632             MR. BROOKS:  No, we are not asking for the Commission to change the existing trade that has been there for that many years.  What we are suggesting is perhaps a clarification from the applicants that this would in fact be the case.  Programs produced by the independent production community would in fact ‑‑ the rights to those programs ‑‑ would belong to the producer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13633             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So what you are saying is you will be satisfied by a commitment on their part rather than a condition of license?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13634             MR. BROOKS:  Yes, we would.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13635             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Mr. Novak.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13636             MR. NOVAK:  Thank you.  It is sort of off why I am sitting here, but if I could speak to the terms of trade.  This is a critical and vital issue that I am not sure if it is the Commission's role to address, because I don't know enough about the Commission's jurisdiction, but it is going to be a benchmark for the future in terms of relationships between independent producers and the broadcast community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13637             We are entering in ‑‑ there are labour management disagreements taking place right now in this country and there is no set of rules, there is no set of policies that are firm enough and will create a level playing field to deal with internet, downloading from iPods.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13638             I think the only way that I have been able to think of to protect the broadcaster, the broadcasters are in business to make money, but also to protect the independent producers is a fair terms of trade that this country needs to adopt, but it has to be adopted for everyone.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13639             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, I understand that there are currently negotiations between ACTRA and the producers on the one hand and eventually the producers and the broadcasters. But there is also a federal tribunal responsible for labour relations between the federally regulated industry and the so‑called associations or unions of all kinds that do exist.  There is also the Copyright Board, there is the CRTC and clearly, nobody knows who is ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13640             MR. BROOKS:  Who is in charge.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13641             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ who is in charge.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13642             MR. BROOKS:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13643             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So we have been asked from time to time to get involved by some parties.  Some others are saying, no, stay where you are, keep our course.  So that is why I wanted to have your personal view.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13644             MR. BROOKS:  Let me put my foot in my mouth.

‑‑‑ LAUGHTER / RIRES

                 I have been told by broadcasters, unnamed of course, to my face, "You will either give us these rights or there are 10 other producers who will give us those rights and we won't work with you."  That is a sample of the world in which an independent producer lives in.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13645             THE CHAIRPERSON:  CTS is not the only group that is proposing making funds available for the independent production industry. Except The Miracle Channel, who is only asking for retransmitters of their Lethbridge station, all the others have had commitments.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13646             Have you had a chance to look at the other proposals that are before us in this proceeding?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13647             MR. BROOKS:  No, I am sorry, I have not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13648             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you, Mr. Brooks, has your association been solicited by the other applicants?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13649             MR. BROOKS:  Solicited..?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13650             THE CHAIRPERSON:  For support or ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13651             MR. BROOKS:  Oh, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13652             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Because you made a choice to come and support Crossroads.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13653             MR. BROOKS:  Right.  I will be back later to support the CanWest application.  So yes, we were solicited to support the applicants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13654             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, Reverend Lucas, Crossroads is a multi‑faith broadcaster and I understand that you are surely of a specific denomination, but balanced programming is not an issue for you?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13655             REV. LUCAS:  No.  In fact, when I was in Toronto I watched some Jewish programming on CTS, I was very impressed, the quality of the presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13656             I would think that over 200 Calgary churches and clergy of the 600 in this city would support this application.  That I am presuming now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13657             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13658             REV. LUCAS:  But I am lead to believe.  Their meeting isn't until Thursday.

‑‑‑ LAUGHTER / RIRES

LISTNUM 1 \l 13659             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, fine.  Gentlemen, thank you very much for your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13660             REV. LUCAS:  Thank you kindly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13661             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will take a 15‑minute break and resume at 4:00.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1545 / Suspension à 1545

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1600 / Reprise à 1600

LISTNUM 1 \l 13662             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.  Order please.  Ms Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13663             THE SECRETARY:  For the record, Crossroads Television System has filed, in confidence, the list of employees for the combined Calgary and Edmonton stations.  An abridged version is available on the public examination file.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13664             I will now ask Duncan Wood and Ken Madore to come to the presentation table.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13665             We will continue.  I will now ask CHUM Limited to come to the presentation table please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13666             Please introduce yourselves, and you have 10 minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13667             MR. SWITZER:  Thank you.  Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission, Commission staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13668             My name is Jay Switzer and I am President and CEO of CHUM Limited.  To my left, your right, is Al Thorgeirson, Regional Vice‑President for CHUM Television Alberta and Manitoba.  He has intimate knowledge of the Alberta market, having been based here for almost a decade.  To my right, your left, David Goldstein, Vice‑President of Government and Regulatory Affairs for CHUM.  And with that, we will begin our presentation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13669             As CTV Globemedia is in the process of acquiring CHUM and has publicly stated that it intends to apply to the Commission for authority to acquire CHUM's Citytv stations in Calgary and Edmonton many of you may be wondering why is CHUM appearing here today to oppose these applications.  The answer is very straightforward. CHUM's shares are currently being held in trust.  As you are well aware, in the context of a transaction involving regulated broadcasting assets the purpose of a trust, in our opinion, is two‑fold.  First, to ensure that control does not pass to the purchaser until the Commission approves the transaction.  Secondly, to ensure that the assets are managed in such a way as to preserve their value during the interim period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13670             A number of applicants have cited the CTV CHUM acquisition as justification for licensing new stations.  We believe no one should presume, however, that the Commission will approve what CTV is proposing.  As a result, it is our obligation as stewards of these assets to ensure that they are managed and operated responsibly with the best interests of viewers and the future owners, whomever they may be, in mind.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13671             After reviewing the matter with CHUM's independent trustee it became apparent that our responsibility as the manager of these Alberta stations required us to oppose these applications.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13672             In our view, there is only one issue the Commission needs to consider at this hearing, whether the Edmonton and Calgary television markets can, from an economic perspective, sustain the introduction of one or more new stations.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13673             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  In our written intervention we made the point that it is not only important to look at the overall market, but also the impact that the new television station might have on each station in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13674             In other words, we set out what might be considered a two‑stage test for making economic assessments of whether or not the market can support a new station.  First, how is the market doing overall?  Second, what would the impact on the smallest and most vulnerable station in the market be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13675             In our view this is not an either or proposition, we believe that both tests must be met before a new station is licensed.  So let us examine each of those in turn.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13676             First, how is the market doing overall?  As we noted in our written intervention, most of the applicants said very little about the actual state of the television market in Calgary and Edmonton.  A lot of statistics were submitted about population growth in Alberta and the Alberta economy in general, but little evidence has been submitted concerning the actual state of private conventional television in Calgary and Edmonton.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13677             In its decision in 2004 the Commission denied applicants for new conventional licenses in Calgary and Edmonton.  According to the Commission's decision, it found that in 2002 the average PBIT level for private television in Calgary, Edmonton and Red Deer was just 9.3 per cent, compared to 19.9 per cent in 1997.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13678             The Commission also expressed concern about the rate of revenue growth, which between 1998 and 2002 was only 6.5 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13679             For those two reasons the applicants were denied.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13680             So what has happened since that decision?  Well, from 2003 to 2005 the PBIT levels did improve.  This improvement has been cited by all applicants as one of they reasons why their applications should be approved.  However, based on the experience of our stations in Calgary and Edmonton and our knowledge of the market, we are of the view that this was only a temporary phenomenon.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13681             In fact, this is supported by the preliminary 2006 financial data the Commission placed on the public file yesterday, which shows the PBIT margins in Edmonton and Calgary have declined dramatically, almost back to the 2002 levels.  Of equal concern is the fact that advertising revenues for private TV in Calgary and Edmonton have been relatively flat in 2006 compared to 2005.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13682             All of this points to the following conclusions; population growth and general economic growth do not automatically translate into more revenue for local conventional television stations.  Moreover, the structural changes impacting conventional television across the country, something that numerous licensees, including CHUM, noted as part of the recent TV policy review, are now just as much an issue in Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13683             Conventional television is no longer must‑see TV.  Viewers now have access to an unprecedented array of viewing options ranging from speciality television to VOD to programming available online and advertising are taking notice.  While overall revenue may not be in decline, advertisers are spending their dollars differently, opting to cherry pick the top 20 programs and fill in with specialty in spots and internet buys as needed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13684             In fact, CHUM recently had a major national advertiser opt to direct a significant portion of its entire buy to a U.S. based internet portal, not just denying CHUM stations their historical share of the buy, but all television stations.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13685             These developments have impacted all conventional television operators, but have an acute effect on those licensees who have limited or no access to the top shows.  So if we consider the first test we set out, the overall performance of the market, it appears that the revenue growth has slowed and that profitability has returned to 2002 levels, which were insufficient for licensing three years ago.  On that basis, we would argue that the first test for licensing has not been met.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13686             MR. THORGEIRSON:  Now, what about the second test, how each station in the market would be impacted if the Commission were to license?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13687             It is easy to compare the projected revenue of a new station against a total market.  But the most severe impact of a new station is not on a total market or on the strongest stations, it is usually on the smallest, most vulnerable stations in that market.  We know this from our recent experience in Toronto.  In 2002 the Commission chose to license two new conventional television stations in Toronto.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13688             In that process CHUM predicted that its Ontario television stations would feel a disproportionate share of the impact.  Unfortunately, our prediction was actually conservative.  CHUM estimated a negative impact of $8.3 million.  However, because the launch of the two stations was staggered, the overall impact was actually closer to $11 million.  Today, in each of Calgary and Edmonton the smallest private stations in the market is the Citytv station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13689             As we outlined in our written submission, those stations are far more vulnerable to a new competitor than either the Global or CTV stations in these markets.  In the audience ratings for fall 2006 CHUM's Citytv Calgary had only four of the top 50 programs, while Citytv Edmonton had only three of the top 50 programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13690             In 2006 Citytv Calgary had revenues that were lower than they were in 2004.  The station lost money and its PBIT was negative  ‑29.8 per cent.  In 2006 Citytv Edmonton also had revenues that were lower than they were in 2004 and its PBIT was negative ‑19.8 per cent.  Given these results, CHUM was forced to dramatically reduce expenses at these stations and completely change the manner in which the stations provide local programming.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13691             Our current projections are showing flat year over year revenue growth and, even with the operating cost reductions, it is unlikely that either of these stations will return to profitability in the current broadcast year.  Given these results, should the Commission license a new entrant, it may become necessary for these stations to further re‑examine how they meet their regulatory obligations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13692             This is not just about CHUM.  The PBIT declines in the Edmonton and Calgary markets in 2006, as outlined in the attached table, show that our competitors have been impacted as well.  It is obvious that CHUM's two stations would be the most vulnerable to competition for advertising revenues from a new conventional station in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13693             A new station would be much more likely to be selling lower‑rated programs that will have less of an impact on the high‑rated programming of a Global or CTV, but will have more of an impact on the lower‑rated programs carried by the CHUM stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13694             To compound the problem, as we have illustrated in our written intervention, some of the proposed new stations may also be competing to purchase some of the same types of programs currently aired on Citytv Calgary and Citytv Edmonton.  So there could be two negative impacts, competition for non‑top 20 programs, thereby driving up programming costs, and competition for advertising.  In fact, Rogers confirmed this in questioning yesterday.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13695             On that basis, we would argue that the second economic test for licensing has also not been met.  The impact on the smallest, most vulnerable station in each market would be severe.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13696             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  We have been criticized for portraying the financial state of the market positively in Alberta in 2003 when an applicant before the Commission and negatively in Toronto in 2001 where CHUM operates an incumbent station.  Factually, this is correct.  In Toronto, the licensing of new entrants caused market upheaval negatively impacting a number of stations, including CHUM stations and Global CH, and actually pushed one of the newly licensed companies into financial turmoil.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13697             In Calgary and Edmonton, as discussed, the Commission decided in 2004 not to license notwithstanding our views on the market.  Based on the current state of the market, it is clear that you were right.  As we have noted, both of the economic tests for licensing have not been met in this process either.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13698             For all these reasons, we believe the applications before you should be denied.  And furthermore, we believe that given the state of conventional television in both Alberta and nationally any licensing decisions should be delayed until after the Commission has released the new TV policy and resolved any questions relating to the ownership of CHUM stations in Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13699             We would like to thank the Commission for the opportunity to appear and we look forward to taking your questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13700             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Switzer, Mr. Goldstein and Mr. Thorgeirson.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13701             Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13702             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I just have two questions.  Mr. Goldstein, what you were saying just now, "any licensing decisions should be delayed until after the Commission has released the TV policy and resolved any questions relating to the ownership of CHUM stations in Alberta."

LISTNUM 1 \l 13703             So number one, we would just defer any decision on this application, is that what you mean?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13704             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  First of all, we still firmly believe that there is not sufficient economic room in the market for another player.  But there are a series of sequential things that are before the Commission now that we think should be resolved before the Commission entertains whether the market can accept a new entrant.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13705             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  But what I am asking you is are you saying we should just not decide about this hearing at all until after we have resolved these issues or we should simply decline these issues and look at the issue later?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13706             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Again, I think there is a sequence of issues.  You have already had the TV policy hearing.  One would expect that those decisions will come out in the spring.  We understand that there has been an application filed by Bell Globemedia.  At some point, hopefully in the very near future, the Commission will be looking at those series of assets and how they plan to deal with them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13707             And then, once we have a clear indication of what the TV policy framework is going to be, and what is happening with the overall ownership structure of these particular stations, then we think the Commission should take or revisit whether it is worth looking at stations I this market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13708             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  And in your schedule you are using 2006 projected PBITs, are you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13709             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  We are using the numbers that were filed on the public record yesterday.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13710             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  So what does the P mean?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13711             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Preliminary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13712             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right, preliminary, okay, not projected.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13713             Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13714             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13715             Would you agree with me that the indicators for the current year and the broadcast year, the rolling 12 month information that is available was showing that, if what you have said, the overall market is sound?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13716             MR. SWITZER:  Mr. Chairman, from a television operating perspective, no, we would disagree based on what we know, both from data and from anecdotal information.  If you are asking about market specifics, that is another matter.  But as to the soundness of conventional television in this market, we believe there are challenges that mirror the challenges that other conventional broadcasters are facing across the country and not just CHUM conventional television.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13717             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, but I am using the television time sales survey that the CBB ‑‑ and I have before my eyes the December report.  And if I am comparing Calgary and Edmonton vis à vis say Quebec City, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto and Vancouver, these indicators are much more positive for Calgary and Edmonton than they are from say for many other markets that I have just mentioned.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13718             MR. SWITZER:  Mr. Chairman, I guess we would categorize it as the healthiest of the unhealthy.  We have suggested, in our words, that we ourselves are seeing some moderate increases, that is at the revenue level.  Certainly, PBIT information, both for ourselves, and you have annual returns from others, the preliminary data for the yearend just a few months ago effectively shows levels of profitability returning down to single digits or, at most, 10 per cent or so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13719             Yes, I believe that the rate of change in Alberta is better than the rest of the country.  We would not categorize it as a sound situation overall for the operations and profitability of conventional television.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13720             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, your 2006 annual reports do contain special events.  Well, in mid‑July you did announce throughout the company that you were doing some staff reduction. Is the cost of that restructuring included in your 2006 filing or will it be carried over in the 2007?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13721             MR. SWITZER:  My understanding, Mr. Chairman, is most of it was expensed, as required, as a publicly traded company at the time, in the summer of 2006.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13722             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So your negative PBIT may not turn to be positive, but it will be less negative than the number that you have provided the Commission with?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13723             MR. SWITZER:  The information that is file, of course, is accurate and complete ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13724             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh no, I didn't say that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13725             MR. SWITZER:  ‑‑ I can't speak to how much Alberta ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13726             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, no, but if you hadn't done that restructuring your severance costs with the staff that you had to let go would not have appeared in your financial report.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13727             MR. SWITZER:  If I might, Mr. Chair.  Because we filed that information confidentially with the Commission ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13728             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am not looking to use any numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13729             MR. SWITZER:  No, but ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 13730             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But only as a piece of information, I want you to say, if it is the case, that your financial statements for 2006 are more negative than they would have been if you had not done that restructuring.  I am not saying that restructuring wasn't necessary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13731             MR. SWITZER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13732             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am only saying that the financial statements are showing a darker picture than if no restructuring had taken place.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13733             MR. SWITZER:  Yes.  And I guess you are right about that and that may, without divulging numbers, you know, might take us from a negative ‑29.8 per cent PBIT to a negative ‑26 per cent PBIT.  It is still nowhere near what anybody would consider to be an acceptable level nor would it translate into a significant change in the overall market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13734             And what was interesting to us, and frankly there have been several who may just allege that this is a function of us being poor operators, what we found with the numbers that were put on the public record yesterday is that we are not the only ones.  We have been suffering the most, but we are not the only ones in the market who have seen an incredible downturn in PBIT this year.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13735             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you were capable to make that calculation based on the information that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13736             MR. SWITZER:  Yes.  We don't know the specifics of course ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13737             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, no exactly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13738             MR. SWITZER:  ‑‑ as to the other two reporting units, but when we back out our numbers we clearly see a decline somewhere with the other two.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13739             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  You did an intervene against Miracle Channel, and because they are not seeking any advertising revenues or very limited advertising revenues and mostly out of Lethbridge, not out of Calgary or Edmonton, but from your own perspective, if the Commission wants to at the end of the day to come up to granting one license, which one of the applicants will have the least impact on your operation?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13740             MR. SWITZER:  Mr. Chairman, we don't wish to duck that very legitimate question, but the answer is different for everyone of the applicants.  We are here today on behalf of the channels here in Alberta to flag the structural issues and what we believe are the risks from our point of view of potentially over‑licensing.  The issues that Rogers or channel m or Miracle or CTS bring, some affect costs more, some affect the national advertising pool more, some affect retail issues more.  It would be very difficult for us to categorize them, not that we are not dealing with the issue, but it is not just about white and black.  Each affects things in their own way, some more locally, some more nationally, some more strategically, some more in the short‑term, some more on the revenue side, some more on the cost side.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13741             We have given it quite a bit of thought and I guess we are here to flag to you so that we can, regardless of what may happen in the future, with calm voice and some thought suggest to you the challenges and risks for these stations in Alberta that we would see in any licensing area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13742             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Well, I am about to ask you what will be the impact of Crossroads on CHUM operations in Calgary and in Edmonton?  Will it be revenues only or will it have an impact on your ability to acquire programming?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13743             MR. SWITZER:  I mean on the surface, from a selfish point of view, Miracle obviously from a less dollar point of view.  The dollars that we see in the model for ‑‑ if I may jump ahead ‑‑ the dollars that we see just in total gross dollars for what CanWest is proposing and their discussion today suggesting that considerable, many millions, will come from CHUM are revenue issues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13744             Rogers presents generally as much of a cost issue, as much as a revenue issue but they are selling a larger national structured grid of common schedules.  There are very bright and creative people in Vancouver at channel m, perhaps will propose a little less of a cost issue, more of a local revenue issue.  CTS are very good at what they do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13745             We are here, not to be personal about any of these, but to deal with issues that we believe will challenge what is already a challenged structural situation for conventional here.  And each of the applicants brings with it a different kind of risk for our channels.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13746             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But overall they all bring a risk to ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13747             MR. SWITZER:  Yes, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13748             THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ the health of the CHUM station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13749             MR. SWITZER:  Yes, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13750             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, those are my questions and I don't think my colleagues have any questions.  Thank you very much.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13751             THE SECRETARY:  I will now call to the presentation table the following interveners: CIM Canada Media Services; Toronto Somali Television & Radio and Fresh From the Yukon who will appear as a panel representing producers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13752             A maximum of 10 minutes is allowed for this group presentation.  Please go ahead after introducing yourself.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13753             MR. LEE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and commissioners.  My name is Seung Yop Lee and I am an independent producer for CIM Canada Media Services, a small production company based in Vancouver, B.C.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13754             I would like to say a few things about a truly unique production experience I have had with OMNI TV and my strong support of the application of OMNI Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13755             In 2006 we produced a biographic documentary project called True Triumph in Range Lake.  The story is about Sandy Lee, a Korean‑Canadian MLA of Range Lake in Yellowknife, NWT.  When Sandy's family, a single mom with two girls, came to Yellowknife in the late 1970s they were the only Koreans living in the whole town.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13756             As a teenage immigrant from Korea she faced many challenges adapting to a new culture and a new language.  But with help from her new neighbours Sandy went on to earn an impressive list of degrees and years later she came back to Yellowknife to help the people who helped her family when they first arrived in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13757             The vision for this project was to motivate newcomers to claim their rightful place in this country, to strive for excellence and celebrate their cultural identity.  The project was 100 per cent funded by OMNI TV which shared the same vision with us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13758             I sincerely thank OMNI's independent producers' initiative for supporting my work towards these ideas.  It was evident that without OMNI's financial support and vision for celebrating multiculturalism it would not have been possible to tell these kinds of stories in languages other than English or French.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13759             Also, it is very rare, regardless of the scale of the production, to get 100 per cent funding and total support.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13760             There are grants and assistance from various organizations in B.C., but such a thing as 100 per cent funding hardly exists.  Also, professional advisors by OMNI production staff during the production stage, from the initial concept to the completion, helped us to produce quality programs in both technical and artistic measure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13761             Based on my firsthand experience with local community channels in the respective cities, I am aware they view some multicultural content, but hardly provide assistance or resources, that are on financial support to create quality programming.  I am absolutely positive that OMNI Alberta's $10 million special programming fund will create great opportunities to talented local ethnic independent producers and will foster a variety of third‑language projects.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13762             I passed this news to my colleague independent producers in Alberta and they are all very excited to hear about not only the fund, but also it is brought in by OMNI.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13763             Over the years of my residence as a Korean‑Canadian I have witnessed a rapid growth of visible minorities in Alberta and I always felt the need for ethnic television stations dedicated to reflect the needs and interests of these communities in their own languages.  Helping new Canadians integrate into the larger community, while not forgetting their heritage, is beneficial to the province and the nation.  And I know personally how much third‑language television is appreciated by newcomers in this country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13764             The demand for ethnic TV stations in this region is real and it will be increased as time goes by.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13765             OMNI has been making a real effort for a long time in encouraging cross‑cultural communications.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13766             We all had a dream when we are a child.  In my case my dream was to be a filmmaker who can tell, share real‑life stories of humanity. There are a lot of untold stories of visible minorities in Canada.  And in my personal opinion, one of the reasons for that is due to language barrier.  I strongly believe having OMNI Alberta will bring these stories into the light and these stories will unite everyone in this country as one with a strong sense of belonging.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13767             Thank you.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13768             MR. HASSAN:  Good day, Mr. Commissioner, honourable members of the Commission.  Good day, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13769             Thank you for calling a hearing on this timely and important issue.  I am pleased to have this opportunity to publicly discuss, address and intervene the importance of OMNI Alberta's license.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13770             My name is Mohamed Dahir Hassan and I was born and raised in Mogadishu, Somalia.  Currently, I am the Producer of Somali community programs on OMNI Television, which is the only one of its kind in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13771             Sometimes the Somali community outside of Ontario watch my show by way of getting a recorded tape from family members or friends in Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13772             Also, I am the Producer of Somali Community Radio on CHIN 1540.  I always respect and regard two persons in Canada, Madeleine Ziniak of CFMT and Johnny Lombardi of CHIN Radio.  I have also an online project on the world wide web which is mainly on the news of Somalia and also Somalis in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13773             I am also an active contributor to Somali newspaper in Toronto.  Furthermore, I had the opportunity of making a documentary called Leopards in the Snow.  And recently I was in many places in Alberta.  I visited Calgary, Edmonton, Fort McMurray, Grande Prairie, Brooks, Red Deer and Lloydminster.  All these places there were Somali communities I met.  Most of them, and almost all of them, they were happy to see me there.  But they were asking me one question, when OMNI will have a program in Alberta.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13774             Today I would like to put the question to you and ask you when they could have OMNI program in Alberta?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13775             Thank you so much.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13776             MR. WALCHER:  Mr. Chairman, commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13777             My name is Werner Walcher and I am the President of an independent production company up in Whitehorse, Yukon.  What we do, we like to tell modern stories which have a greater impact than dramas to all the people, not just in the north, all over the world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13778             We are in post‑production now of a documentary with the National Film Board of Canada and we are also in production with a documentary funded 100 per cent by OMNI TV.  This documentary with the working title, Follow Your Dream tells the story of Frank, he is a Canadian‑German immigrant, who had his childhood dream of coming into Canada's north after reading Jack London stories.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13779             So what he is doing now, he operates a trapline in a very remote location and that is how he spends the winter.  In the summer he has a very remote fishing lodge.  So he tells his stories and always recorded in German, which would normally not be possible if you have a regular broadcaster who is oriented mostly in English and French.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13780             Frank tell us about his dreams about the hardships, his adventures and that is all against the backdrop of the beautiful Yukon wilderness.  Following Frank's life for a year had been quite an adventure by itself.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13781             As a German immigrant to Canada myself I strongly feel that we as filmmakers and producers and broadcasters have a mandate to reach etho‑cultural audiences.  Therefore, I was very pleased when our documentary, Follow Your Dreams, received 100 per cent funding from OMNI.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13782             The Yukon Film Commission offers funding too, but it the normal funding process if you need a broadcaster/distributor, Telefilm, all those little puzzles and it is getting sometimes quite complex.  So when I first heard about OMNI's 100 per cent funding I said well, it is too good to be true.  I said, well let us contact then and see what happens and, astonishingly, within a few weeks I got approval for production funding.  And I want to say, we are as far away as it gets from Toronto and we still worked very good together.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13783             I am now really looking forward that more of these funding opportunities in etho‑cultural programs will exist in Alberta.  That is great, there is a lot of people there.  And I would like to thank OMNI for the care that they have for small companies and individual directives like our product, Follow Your Dreams.  Therefore, I am fully supporting the application and I am looking forward to have more etho‑cultural programming in Alberta too.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13784             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13785             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cugini.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13786             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13787             Just very quickly, Mr. Lee, True Triumph in Range Lake, the Sandy Lee story, that is a project that has been completed?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13788             MR. LEE:  That is right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13789             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And I am assuming that, or correct me if I am wrong, that the funding from the OMNI Independent Producers Fund includes a commitment to broadcast?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13790             MR. LEE:  Would you repeat the question one more time?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13791             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Has OMNI made a commitment to you that they will air the documentary?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13792             MR. LEE:  Yes, they did.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13793             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Which of the OMNI stations has your documentary been seen on?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13794             MR. LEE:  OMNI 2.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13795             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  In Toronto, based in Toronto?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13796             MR. LEE:  That is right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13797             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13798             Mr. Walcher, is that how you pronounce your name, sir?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13799             MR. WALCHER:  That is right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13800             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And same question for you and your documentary?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13801             MR. WALCHER:  It is just shot and started with the assemblies, it hasn't been broadcasted.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13802             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And do you know which of the OMNI stations will air your program?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13803             MR. WALCHER:  I don't know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13804             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You don't know yet.  Okay, thank you.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13805             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, gentlemen, for your presentation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13806             And, Mr. Hassan, I want to bring the following answer to your question.  We have heard all the applications, we are hearing the interveners today and we will take that into deliberations and we will come up with a reply in the coming months.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13807             MR. HASSAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13808             MR. LEE:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13809             MR. WALCHER:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13810             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13811             THE SECRETARY:  I will now ask James Jacuta, Southern Alberta Heritage Language Association and Committee on Race Relations and Cross Cultural Understanding to appear as a panel and present their interventions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13812             We will start with James Jacuta.  Please introduce yourself for the record, after which you will have 10 minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13813             MR. JACUTA:  Thank you.  My name is James Jacuta, I have come down from Edmonton today to make this presentation.  I have submitted my speaking notes to you as well as the appendix of 61 pages of statistics on language use and I don't intend to go through all of them.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13814             Having heard Commissioner Cugini's questions this morning, I think that the Commission probably does get the point of my presentation more so than I think the Multivan group does.  I will just shorten it and perhaps there might be questions and answers at a more in‑depth level.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13815             The Multivan group essentially has done their proposal based on ethnic origin statistics, not on language use statistics.  And when I reviewed all of the documents that became very evident to me.  The Ukrainian community in Alberta is a mature Canadian‑borne community, something like 98 per cent of the ethnic origin Ukrainians in Alberta are born in Alberta, they are not immigrants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13816             The Multivan group is proposing eight hours of broadcasting in Calgary. But if you look at the bottom of my page 1 you will see that the ethnic origin group is 65,040 people, but the group of the Ukrainian linguistic is actually only 240 people that uses Ukrainian in the home only on a daily basis.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13817             I think that underlying the assumptions of the Multivan group are some fundamental flaws.  I think the Rogers application and the OMNI application is much more sophisticated in how they have approached the communities that they are serving.  And I think in that regard much more realistic and, in the end, much more sustainable in the communities that they will serve.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13818             I could go through more statistics and I really don't want to this late in the day and I am hoping that you will have questions on the presentation.  The numbers really are multilevel.  If you just look at ethnic origin you are missing the entire picture.  There are people then who have mother tongue, first‑learned and still understood, but that could be, as Larisa Sembaliuk from the Multivan group pointed out, it could be very old seniors in old‑age homes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13819             If you look at the intermarriage statistics, endogamy and exogamy for the Ukrainian group, if you look at the age demographic, the age pyramid on people who know the language, for me as an outside observer to this process but as somebody very familiar with Ukrainian‑Canadian community, it makes no sense to try and provide and to try and deliver in a sustainable way eight hours of programming for and then rebroadcast for Calgary for a community that isn't there.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13820             That may seem paradoxical from a community leader from the Ukrainian community in Alberta and someone who has been President of the Ukrainian‑Canadian Congress, I would love to see eight hours or 16 or 32 hours of broadcasting.  I simply think it is not realistic and not sustainable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13821             So with that, I am not going to refer to the 61 pages of statistics that I have provided to you in detail.  The point I want to make is that ethnic origin for the Ukrainian community and for other communities is the wrong number to use in the presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13822             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13823             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Who is the next presenter?

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13824             MR. GRETTON:  Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13825             My name is Michael Gretton and I am the coordinator of the Southern Alberta Heritage Language Association, otherwise known as SAHLA in Calgary.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13826             With me this afternoon are two language education champions.  On my right‑hand side is Mr. Vinay Dey who is the Treasurer and also an Executive Member of SAHLA.  And on my left is Mrs. Josephine Pollard who is the President of IHLA, International Heritage Languages Association, based in Edmonton.  So it is proof that Edmontonians and Calgarians do get along, as I have two right beside me who are good friends. Josephine is also the Executive Director of Changing Together, Centre for Immigrant Women.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13827             Obviously, we are here in full support of OMNI Alberta's television application and I would like to begin with a quick quote and it is by our Governor General Michaëlle Jean and it goes, "In Canada where you come from is not a barrier to how far you can go."

LISTNUM 1 \l 13828             I would now like to introduce Vinay Dey, Treasurer of SAHLA to speak on SAHLA's behalf.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13829             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13830             MR. DEY:  Good afternoon, Mr. Chairperson and commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13831             On behalf of the Southern Alberta Heritage Language Association, SAHLA, we wish to express our full support of OMNI Television's application for OMNI Alberta's Application 2006‑1034‑6, Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13832             SAHLA is a non‑profit educational organization that represents over 30 community‑based language and cultural schools including 36 languages to over 6,000 students, both children and adults in the Calgary region.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13833             Since 1985 SAHLA continues to play a leading role in the promotion, development and advocacy of international heritage languages, multicultural understanding and respect.  SAHLA and community‑based language schools provide an important and unduplicated role in the overall maintenance and enhancement of international heritage language education in Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13834             Together SAHLA and IHLA and Alberta's diverse cultural and linguistic communities and community‑based language schools continue to play an invaluable role in the teaching and learning of over 36 languages to over 10,000 students across our province as we work together for enhancing language learning in Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13835             Learning and sharing international heritage language is an invaluable way of understanding ourselves and people of diverse culture and building peace and respect within and amongst our communities.  Together languages and multiculturalism are part of an inseparable family.  Cultural communities promote Canada's mosaic through the teaching of over 50 languages across the country.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13836             Languages reinforce the Canadian multicultural identity and strengthen our country's way of life.  The result is social cohesion, which includes cross‑cultural understanding, antiracism, peace building and civic participation.  It is also essential to Alberta and Canada's relationship with the international community in the areas of diplomacy, trade and development.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13837             I cannot stress enough the importance for multilingual programming in the media in Calgary.  We are supporting OMNI TV's proposal because of its proven commitment to cultural diversity, effective community relations and multicultural and multilingual programming.  OMNI TV has a strong presence in Toronto, Ontario and it is now important for OMNI to have a presence here in Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13838             Both, in Calgary and Edmonton, we are confident that OMNI TV will further showcase our cosmopolitan cities' green, vibrant and diverse multicultural and multilingual community socially, culturally, educationally, artistically and economically.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13839             We also believe that OMNI TV's presence will allow all people from many different ethnic communities to receive local news and information that impacts their life in Calgary in a format they can understand and create an environment where everyone feels as though they are part of the Calgary community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13840             Therefore, we fully support OMNI's application to operate in Calgary and kindly ask the CRTC to give the license to OMNI Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13841             I must point out, I have heard so many times today the surveys being done in Calgary and Edmonton.  I am also the President of National Indo‑Canadian Council.  I have never been approached by any other organization except OMNI TV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13842             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13843             MR. GRETTON:  Thank you, Vinay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13844             I will now ask Josephine Pollard, the President of IHLA, to speak.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13845             MS POLLARD:  Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13846             On behalf of IHLA, which is a non‑profit organization that actively promotes cross‑cultural understanding through heritage and international language instruction and education, I am here to support Rogers OMNI application.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13847             IHLA serves as the umbrella body for approximately 25 heritage schools involved in the teaching of international and heritage languages in central and northern Alberta.  The association represents all levels of language instruction and education for over 32 languages and 12,000 plus students of international languages outside the public and the separate school board systems in Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13848             IHLA primarily has the objective that includes supporting and promoting international and heritage language education.  It supports the view that international language education increases the level and respect and appreciation for multiculturalism of Canada's people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13849             Through knowledge of another language we understand and value cultural diversity as the key to countering racism and therefore we have Changing Together Edmonton, a Centre for Immigrant Women.  We also have what we would call a non‑profit charitable organization whose mission is to help and to serve immigrant women and their families in order to overcome personal and systemic barriers that keep them from particularly fully integrating into Canadian society.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13850             OMNI is someone that has really come to us as a privilege, because it is now going to give us an advantage, to be able to serve as a bridge to the mainstream population while many of us are still having difficulty.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13851             To me, OMNI is a proactive and a very inclusive kind of a corporation and it will serve for us as a catalyst in connecting us with our integrated community.  This is a long time overdue and therefore we strongly support OMNI in order to be able to be given the opportunity, not only to showcase our dances and songs, but also to showcase our culture, our language through documentaries and maybe the successes of our ethnic new immigrants, newcomers and refugees that are now citizens of Canada despite the fact that we went through trials and tribulations as we adapt to our new chosen country, making Canada a better place to live in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13852             Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13853             MR. GRETTON:  Thank you, Josephine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13854             In conclusion, Canada's Multiculturalism Act speaks of full participation of ethno‑cultural groups.  For nearly 30 years OMNI has proven its commitment and effectiveness in the broadcasting and sharing of effective multicultural and multilingual programming reflecting our nation's identity and its growing cross‑cultural issues.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13855             It is a critical time for our City of Calgary and in Edmonton and our province to mobilize on our ethno‑cultural issues.  We clearly have a strong need and a demand for such television programming here in our province and we strongly believe that OMNI Television is committed and highly capable in reflecting our diverse linguistic cultural communities in Calgary, in Edmonton and across the province.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13856             With over 20 per cent of Albertans who claim a language other than English as their mother tongue from our African, Asian, Latin American, European, Middle Eastern, Aboriginal communities, we strongly believe that OMNI Television will unite our provinces, communities, our people from its past and our future and greatly assist us as we share news, current issues and we celebrate our diverse cultural activities, events and celebrations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13857             OMNI's presence here will greatly help bridge the diverse etho‑cultural communities to the mainstream and breakdown barriers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13858             I will just leave you with one final quote, "Diversity is the one true thing that we have in common, celebrate it everyday, anonymous."

LISTNUM 1 \l 13859             Thank you.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13860             MS DAWSON:  Good afternoon, Mr. Chairperson, members of the Commission, ladies and gentlemen.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13861             As the Executive Director for the Calgary Committee on Race Relations and Cross Cultural Understanding I have worked extensively with the media in Calgary to help develop cultural competencies, address critical social issues, as well as address cultural religious and ethnic portrayal within Calgary's media.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13862             Since the organization's inception in 1992 the Committee on Race Relations and Cross Cultural Understanding has drawn members and shares affiliations with many other credible and diverse associations and organizations, like the Calgary Police Service, the Calgary Health Region, the Canadian Red Cross, the City of Calgary, the Calgary Jewish Centre, the Muslim Council of Calgary, Centre for Faith and the Media, the Alberta Civil Liberties Research Centre, AIDS Calgary and others.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13863             All of these organizations are committed to eliminating racism and building social cohesion in our communities through education, awareness and action.  We do this through enlisting the support of organizations and institutions such as the media as partners and/or supporters, including diverse points of view, developing greater understanding and building opportunities for continued corporations, building upon the existing strengths of the community, encouraging active participation and citizenship, promoting sensitivity to and reflecting cultural differences and using our ability, our resources and our credibility to mobilize community action on emerging and existing issues and concerns.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13864             I will now touch on the changing face of Calgary, the population growth and the increasing diversity of Calgary.  Calgary, and I am sure you all know, is a vibrant metropolitan city and the fastest growing city in Canada, and that is from Stats Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13865             The census reveals that Calgary's population grew by 15.8 per cent in the five years between 1996 and 2001.  On July 25, 2006 Calgary celebrated its millionth resident.  It is estimated that 90 new people arrive in Calgary everyday.  Calgary is ranked fourth nationally in attracting new immigrants and has received 3.9 per cent of all new immigrants in 2004 compared to 3.6 per cent in the previous year, and that is from Stats Canada in 2005.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13866             Calgary's population is becoming more ethnically diverse.  According to Statistics Canada in 2001 the immigrant population was 197,110 or 20.9 per cent of the total population of 943,310.  This represents a high proportion of the immigrant population of Canada, that is roughly around 18.4 per cent and is the highest level in about 70 years.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13867             A large proportion of the immigrants, that is about 34.9 per cent, arrived in Calgary between 1991 and 2001, so it is fairly new.  From 1982 to 2002 Calgary welcomed about 145 new immigrants, and my source is the City of Calgary in 2003.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13868             So source countries of immigration to Calgary are India, China, Philippines, Pakistan, Korea, England, Iran, United States and Romania and Russia as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13869             Calgary has also experienced a significant increase of people from Somalia, Nigeria, the Sudan, Colombia and Afghanistan.  In addition, we are now seeing fairly large numbers of foreign workers who are entering Calgary and Alberta under the government's Temporary Worker Program.  Calgary's population is expected to reach 1.1 million by 2014 and 1.23 million by 2033 and most of this growth will occur over the next two decades, primarily due to immigration.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13870             Now, some of the languages spoken by Calgarians ‑‑ and my friends around the corner have spoken about that ‑‑ but the number of Canadians whose mother tongue is neither English nor French is increasing at a rate much faster than the general population growth.  Nearly 80 per cent of Canadian immigrants and 17 per cent of total Canadians identify a first language other than English or French, and that is the census in 2001.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13871             Although some people have bilingual interpersonal skills and are able to communicate effectively in daily life in either language, their competence in English may not be adequate to understand healthcare issues, more complex disorders or cope with highly stressful health environments, says Health Canada in 2001.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13872             Additionally, healthcare providers typically overestimate their clients ability to comprehend and communicate in a second language.  There is substantial evidence indicating the existence of health disparities affecting members of ethnic communities when compared to Canadian‑borne populations.  Genetic, psychological, physiological, cultural and socioeconomic factors contribute to the existence of these disparities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13873             In addition to many prevailing factors such as underemployment and unemployment, linguistic and cultural barriers, affect the access to health information and services and has been identified as the main contributing factor to the increased rate in chronic health conditions among ethnic communities.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13874             Mainstream media does not air programs that help members of the ethnic communities access health information that could possibly curb this growing epidemic of health problems.  Examples of health concerns or problems are cardiovascular, asthma, arthritis, diabetes, mental health and other problems.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13875             For example, I will give you a current example.  February is heart month.  There has been nothing in the media to date that translates this critical information to Calgary's ethnic communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13876             South Asians have been identified as being at greater risk for cardiovascular and diabetes.  Fifty‑three per cent of all deaths among South Asians are due to heart disease compared to 41 per cent of all Canadians.  Members of this community, many of whom are seniors with language barriers, need to access information that leads to lifestyle change, diet changes, etc.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13877             Given that five languages spoken in Calgary other than the official languages include Chinese, Mandarin, Hakka, Cantonese, German, Punjabi, Tagalog and Spanish, etc. it is critical that our multicultural communities learn about health concerns, other social concerns.  Broadcasting this information in English does not help, given that many non‑English‑speaking immigrants do not even tune into mainstream media stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13878             OMNI can provide that essential service in many different languages.  I am sure that the Calgary health region will welcome such a service.  Invest now or pay a price when health problems and concerns will reach epidemic levels.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13879             I would also like to take this opportunity to touch very briefly on how I see OMNI contributing to enhancing and promoting cross‑cultural communication and improving race relations in our city.  Looking through the track record that OMNI has in the area of diversity programming I see evidence of programming that can be seen as a two‑way street when it comes to promoting Canada's rich diversity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13880             Multicultural groups will see themselves reflected I the programming, but it also offers a unique opportunity for cross‑cultural, intercultural, intracultural education and culture, faith, ethnicity.  Historical facts relate to the positive contributions made by cultural groups over the years, indeed throughout Canada's history of immigration over the decades.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13881             Some of the programs that would benefit Calgary could be the ADMAS Ethiopian Horizon or Islam 101, that Islamic oriented program where Islam is described and explained.  Given our sensitive environment after 9/11 and the global tensions that have followed, this can only help bridge the gaps, not widen them.  And example that OMNI does, airing the Mahabharat series, which is considered to be one of the greatest epics in the world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13882             I recall growing up in India and watching how on a Sunday morning everything came to a standstill when the Mahabharat was being aired in the local language throughout its many  series.  No wonder it broke television records when it reached a 97.8 per cent viewership in India.  The BBC picked it up much to the delight of the Indo‑British community.  I have been in Canada 18 years and I have yet to see it.  Pity, I would love to see a rerun, and OMNI has shown it, but of course I don't have satellite to tune it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13883             In another example, reaching the Armenian community through no high horizon is to be commended.  The Armenian community in Calgary is fairly large and very scattered.  This community would welcome an opportunity to see themselves included in the media.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13884             Calgary is home to many marginalized communities, like the Jewish community, the Muslim community, the Sikh community and sadly these communities have to bear the brunt of a backlash because of escalating global tensions.  It is critical that they stay informed of how world issues may impact them on many different levels.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13885             The recent Israeli‑Lebanese conflicts give rise to important information that needed to be relayed to these communities not just in English but in their native languages as well. And again, I am sure the Red Cross would welcome OMNI's support had they been in place in Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13886             Last but not least, according to the 2001 census of Canada, that is from Statistics Canada 2003, Calgary's Aboriginal population hovers around 25,000 or 4 per cent of the population.  At this time new Canadians or the multicultural communities are not provided with any current or historic information on Aboriginal communities and are left to either draw their own conclusions or rely on misleading media or popular misinformation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13887             Children and youth in the Aboriginal and multicultural communities are the fastest growing segment of Calgary's growing population.  And I believe that OMNI, while not having a requires to do so, requires to engage our Aboriginal communities and help them connect at a cross‑cultural level with all the other communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13888             The Aboriginal community in Calgary is one that also wishes to engage with Calgary's mainstream community and other ethnic communities.  OMNI's commitment and experience through their partnerships at APTN will include this important community voice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13889             OMNI's application is one that makes a commitment to be inclusive of all the communities.  They wish to engage not only the larger ethnic populations, but also work with the smaller communities and help them grow their cultural and Canadian identity by way of their mentorship program, their documentary fund development and community engagement program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13890             While ethnic language program is critical, I feel that the experience that OMNI has gained over the years brings not only cultural knowledge to the table, but also a deeper analysis of the issues and challenges facing the cultural communities today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13891             THE SECRETARY:  Excuse me.  Your time has expired.  Can you conclude please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13892             MS DAWSON:  I am sorry.  Thank you, thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13893             I just have one paragraph.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13894             THE SECRETARY:  You can conclude if you want.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13895             MS DAWSON:  Thank you so much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13896             In conclusion, OMNI will bring to Calgary over 25 years of ethnic and cultural knowledge.  They have demonstrated a commitment to bridge building between the mainstream community and those of the multicultural communities, they are willing to address and acknowledge the many challenges and they are willing to help grow the cultural voices in Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13897             Thank you very much.  My apologies for taking a lot of time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13898             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13899             Commissioner Cugini.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13900             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13901             Just a couple of questions for the three representatives from SAHLA.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13902             I will have you know that I put myself through university by being a heritage language teacher.  So are these primarily programs outside of the regular school curriculum, that is after school and on Saturday mornings?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13903             MR. GRETTON:  Yes, that is correct.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13904             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And of the 30 community‑based language and cultural schools teaching 36 languages to 6,000 students, do you have a breakdown of say the top three languages, just broken down by the number of students enrolled in those three languages?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13905             MR. GRETTON:  Yes, we can get that information for you.  Basically, Mandarin and Cantonese are the most popular schools in Calgary, with the most number of students.  The East Indian community teaches ‑‑ what is it..?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13906             MR. DEY:  We have 18 languages we teach, Punjabi and Hindi is quite prevalent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13907             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So those would be the most popular of those 30 languages that are taught?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13908             MR. DEY:  Most popular, that is right, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13909             MR. GRETTON:  And Spanish has become very popular in Calgary, as well as Italian, German and other key languages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13910             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  Is that your experience in Edmonton?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13911             MS POLLARD:  That is very similar to Edmonton.  We have Italian, Portuguese and Spanish that are really leading, but many of the new immigrants or the new schools, community‑based language schools are starting to really catch up to them too, like the Albanian and the Romanian and the newcomers that have come maybe five, 10 years ago.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13912             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13913             Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, those are my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13914             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13915             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Mr. Jacuta, is that how you pronounce your name?  I was looking at your ‑‑ and I hear you on we shouldn't be looking at ethnic origin ‑‑ but is there not another way to look at it?  It seems to me we have two distinct philosophies of an ethnic station here.  One is what everybody on this panel has been talking about, a bridge to Canada, uniting communities, introducing communities to Canada and Canada to these communities and countering racism.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13916             But another purpose, and I am not sure, I haven't read the policy since thinking of this this morning, but another reason for having an ethnic television would be to help that community build itself.  And I look at channel m and they have Ukrainian lessons and German lessons and it may well be that some ethnic communities would need that help, not to bridge them to Canada, but to allow them to retain their culture.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13917             And so if you took it from that perspective, the ethnic origin may have some relevance would you think?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13918             MR. JACUTA:  Firstly, I think that every ethno‑cultural community and a linguistic community in the country is different.  And then within the Ukrainian community it would be different in Edmonton, Calgary or Toronto and that is just because of the size of the community, the demographics and how the community functions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13919             If you look at Edmonton and Toronto, they both have about 125,000 people who say somewhere in my past my heritage is Ukrainian. But in Toronto you have probably got about 35,000 of those that are immigrants, they came, you know, or their children.  In Edmonton it is a couple of thousand.  And in terms of community building or the language lessons, yes, I would like to see that for every community in Canada.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13920             I, firstly, am not convinced that there is a market for that and then, secondly, that it would be sustainable.  And my main concern at looking at the overall OMNI application and the Multivan one is that I just intuitively think that the OMNI application understands what is going on with the linguistic communities and the Multivan one is looking at ethnic communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13921             Now, if you look at those 125,000 people in Edmonton as an example they are asked once every 10 years on the census what is your ethnic origin.  And that may be the only thing they do that connects them to the Ukrainian‑ Canadian community ever.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13922             Now, I would like to think that 125,000 of them are fully engaged in Ukrainian community organizations and taking Ukrainian language lessons and, you know, watching Ukrainian programs and attending Ukrainian churches and community centres, etc.  I know that the reality is very different.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13923             And the reality is, as I have pointed out in my presentation here, that in Edmonton you have got 1,495 people that are using the Ukrainian language on a daily basis in their homes, you know, that is maybe 500 homes, households.  And in Calgary it is 240 people, so less than 100 households.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13924             And of the other ones, the 65,000, your question is, in terms of community development, is this a good community development project?  And I think I have to frankly answer no, that the Multivan people, by putting two hours of Ukrainian language instruction on television are not going to get 65,000 people tuning in.  But the reality is that many of these people are not engaged in the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13925             So it is multilayered, there is all kinds of different demographic indicators that the Commission should be looking at, they are buried in all of those StatsCan documents.  But as a community development project, I would like to say yes.  I don't think that is the private broadcaster's mandate or the CRTC's mandate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13926             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13927             Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13928             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Jacuta, you surely have a much deeper knowledge than particularly mine of the ethnic community here in Calgary and Edmonton, would you say that the same thing will apply to some other nationalities like German?  Because Multivan is making the same type of commitment regarding the German community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13929             MR. JACUTA:  Yes.  I understand your question and the answer is yes.  My analysis on the Ukrainian community, which I am very familiar with, I think also applies to the German and other programs in the Multivan program schedule.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13930             I think that they have missed on a number of points.  The OMNI people have hit right on on an number of points.  The reasoning the Multivan people, I think, have looked at ethnic origin statistics and that is a mistake.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13931             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, Ms Dawson, Mr. Jacuta, Mr. Gretton and your colleagues, thank you very much for your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13932             We will move to the next group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13933             THE SECRETARY:  I will now ask the Canadian Polish Congress, Ploty.com/Interwizja.tv and Polish Wave to come to the presentation table.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13934             We will start with Ploty.com/Interwizja.tv.  You have 10 minutes to make your presentation, and please introduce yourself.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13935             MS RYSZ:  Okay.  Good evening, Mr. Chairman and commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13936             My name is Ella Rysz and I have lived in Calgary for almost 17 years.  I represent an independent Polish media through the website www.Ploty.com that has served our Polish community in Calgary since February, 1999.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13937             We started a new Polish TV program hosted on www.Interwizja.tv on January 8 this year to attract more Polish viewers.  We also support a Polish radio program called Polish Wave that is emitted widely on our website and weekly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13938             According to Calgary economic development, based on Statistics Canada, there are over 39,000 Polish origin people in Calgary.  And I would like to mention that our Polish school in Calgary gets, every year, 500 students.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13939             My kids don't consider themselves so their language is first as Polish, but they can translate really well in Polish and English.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13940             This is a huge market in Calgary. Based on our web hosting statistics there are around 2,000 Polish viewers per week from Calgary watching our new weekly internet show, that is only one month old.  But it is not enough to cover all Polish community needs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13941             I am convinced that we need channel m here in Calgary to create a professional Polish TV program to serve our community with better quality shows.  It could also open the door to introduce Polish events and culture to a wider audience in the English language.  With over‑the‑air TV programs we can reach more people in the most accessible and most affordable way.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13942             That is why I strongly support the idea of channel m coming to Calgary, to give us an opportunity to create professional Polish TV shows focused mostly on local news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13943             Thank you.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13944             MR. DOMARADZKI:  Thank you.  Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13945             My name is Marek Domaradzki and I am a Founder, Producer and Host of Calgary's own Polish‑language radio program, Polish Wave.  I thank you for the opportunity to say a few words in support of channel m's application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13946             We live in an era of global communications, news from all around the world reaches us quickly with or without our consent.  At the same time in today's area of globalization I suppose people tend to think locally, they tend to prefer reading local newspapers, visit local stores, surf locally oriented web pages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13947             The word locally is a recipe for success for new TV programming in Calgary and new TV programming that wants to make its presence is channel m.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13948             What appeared to me at the first moment I became familiar with the channel m programming offer is that it combines two crucial elements for the new offer, local and ethnic.  Why is the local element important?  My own experience as a producer of Calgary's own Polish‑language radio program has taught me that local is extremely important.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13949             What my lesson has always advised me about is that despite having access to satellite Polish TV programs from Poland and a growing number of internet‑accessible radio programs broadcasted directly from Poland, they turn on their radio to listen to my program because nowhere else they can hear local news, interviews with local community people and hear the things Polish in our Calgary community.  This local element nicely merges with another feature, namely ethnicity and, as we all know, this is a core base for channel m programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13950             Canada is a unique place where we immigrants are blessed with the freedom to enhance value of being Canadian today, in the future, and at the same time cherish and preserve our heritage.  My 14 plus year venture with Calgary's ethnic radio station have taught me a valuable lesson, ethnic programming thinks locally.  These are two elements likely to be, two elements like local and ethnic, in general meaning.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13951             But I am also past member of the board of directors of Polish Canadian Association in Calgary and I know how communication is important to organizational life.  The Polish Canadian Association is a member of Canadian Polish Congress, which represents 800,000 Canadians of Polish heritage across Canada and approximately 100,000 of those live in Alberta, mainly Edmonton and Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13952             Ethnic organizations like Canadian Polish Congress actively support Canadians with Polish dissent engaging in all aspects of public life in Canada.  Our congress focuses on promoting and supporting those activities of our members'  organization that benefit not only our ethnic group, but the entire Canadian society as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13953             One of the key ingredients of the Polish‑Canadian Congress is communication.  Similarly, communication and awareness is key to other ethnic communities and the Canadian society in general.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13954             channel m TV will provide a vital component in those communication efforts.  This would work in a way of, among others, providing attractive, efficient and effective communication channels to reach members of our own community and exposing them to the reminder of the multicultural mosaic of Canadian society.  channel m plan and programming has already been successfully implemented in Vancouver.  This means they won't be experimenting here in Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13955             So channel m has planned to achieve those two aspects, it will be ethnic and it will be locally orientated.  From all available statistics provided what ethnic will mean in channel m programming, let me just present a few. They propose to produce 86 hours of ethnic programming per week, aiming specifically at multilingual viewers, and 30 hours per week will be produced locally for and in the Calgary market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13956             What local means to channel m is that they will breathe locally, the programming of channel m will breathe locally.  They will produce signature ethnic local programming out of their Calgary studio.  Programs will be locally produced with support from Calgary anchors, writers, supporters, editors and camera people.  Further, they commit to partner with an independent production community to have them produce over 10 hours a week of television programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13957             Team up those two key elements with the quality of programming they have committed to and we will have a vibrant offer to all Calgarians with ethnic backgrounds.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13958             I was assured that the local producers, talent and technicians will be given opportunity and guidance.  Then there will be virtually no limit as how local programming will positively influence all of Calgary's ethnic communities.  I believe channel m programming will be a reflection to Calgary's communities.  Working with the independent production community they will reflect the local needs, the events and the heart of Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13959             I believe in channel m's commitment that is why I support its motion to get approval from CRTC, to make a significant presence in Calgary and introduce soon high‑quality programming connected to the local communities in Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13960             Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13961             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Domaradzki and Ms Rysz.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13962             Commissioner Langford.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13963             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Just a quick question.  I was looking at the ‑‑ and we saw you earlier today, so I am assuming you are an expert ‑‑ I am just looking at the schedules for channel m in Calgary and Edmonton and they both feature, if I am reading them correctly, a program called Polish Lifestyles, played one hour, but twice a week.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13964             Do you know if each hour will be a different hour or whether it is each week, it is repeated?  Do you happen to know?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13965             MR. DOMARADZKI:  I don't know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13966             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Oh okay, I thought maybe you were there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13967             MR. DOMARADZKI:  No ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13968             MS RYSZ:  From what I heard, if I can answer, if they found enough producers they would let them do as much as they want.  It could be every hour a different program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13969             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So every hour could be a new hour ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13970             MS RYSZ:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13971             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ‑‑ if they can find the people?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13972             MS RYSZ:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13973             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So you had better get your cameras.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13974             MS RYSZ:  I already am working on it, I have a half hour every week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13975             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13976             MS RYSZ:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13977             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13978             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No, no thanks.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13979             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I apologize.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13980             Well, Ms Rysz, Mr. Domaradzki, thank you very much for your presentations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13981             We will now go to the next group of interveners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13982             MR. DOMARADZKI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13983             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13984             THE SECRETARY:  I will now ask the Catholic Charities, Catholic Social Services Sign of Hope; Central Alberta Women's Emergency Shelter; and Alberta Children's Hospital Foundation to come make their presentations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13985             We will start with Catholic Charities, Catholic Social Services Sign of Hope. Please introduce yourself for the record, after which you will have 10 minutes to make your presentation.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13986             MR. BARLOW:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13987             My name is Mark Barlow and I am Vice‑President with Catholic Social Services, Catholic Charities.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13988             We are Canada's largest multifunction social service agency.  In Edmonton and Central Alberta we serve more than 60,000 people, all faiths and cultures, we have 1,200 staff and 1,900 volunteers.  In the Red Deer and Wetaskiwin region we have approximately 450 staff and they are serving approximately 18,000 individuals.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13989             So the reason I am here today to speak in favour of the application of CanWest Media for the installation of two more stations, is so that we can continue viable communication service in the Red Deer area for the people who live there, especially our staff and our clients.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13990             CanWest Media, in the Edmonton region and in Red Deer for the non‑profit sector, has a reputation of always being there to provide excellent consultation and support to the non‑profit sector free of charge.  Whenever you are needing some media push at a fundraising event or you are needing a story told, they are there.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13991             In my 25 years as an executive with our agency I can tell you point blank that as much as I try to cultivate relationships with other big players in the marketplace, the only one who has really responded to the small not‑for‑profit sector that is delivering valuable services to people in Edmonton and central Alberta has been CanWest Media, much to their expense, much to their inconvenience and yet much to the higher value of our sector in providing the services that are required.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13992             One of the issues we are concerned about in the Red Deer region is the viability of their station.  We believe if they are not granted these two other broadcasting towers that essentially they are not going to be viable.  And we can't see another player who is going to step up who also has the capability of leading and providing support to the non‑profit sector as CanWest Media has, and so this would be a real tragedy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13993             Secondly, in Alberta there are a lot of former Calgarians and Edmontonians who live in Red Deer who are now making Red Deer home who watch the Calgary Flames or they watch the Edmonton Oilers, so it is a mixed market.  The want to know what is going on in Edmonton.  Edmontonians want to know what is going on in Red Deer.  So we think that mixing that market would not be a difficult situation.  In fact, we in Edmonton and the people in Calgary probably would be very pleased with it.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13994             So I just want to conclude again by saying that CanWest Media has provided our agency and many many other non‑profit organizations in Central Alberta with an excellent service.  They have always been there when other media outlets have not been there.  I really strongly encourage the Commission to approve their application today.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13995             MS HAGAMAN:  Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13996             My name is Pat Hagaman, I am the Executive Director of the Central Alberta Women's Emergency Shelter and I am here to support CanWest Media's application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13997             CanWest Media, most of us in Red Deer probably know it better as RDTV, has been a devoted supporter of the shelter for many years, primarily responsible for developing one of our major fundraisers and has, over the years, also made sure that that fundraising event became even more successful.  We raise about 30 per cent of our overall operating budget and couldn't do that without their support.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13998             They also received the gold medal award for community service at the Western Association of Broadcasters Convention for three years running for that charity dinner.  So as indicated already, they are a very important supporter of local charities.  But I think, for me, more importantly they have been an ongoing support around raising public awareness regarding domestic violence and it is certainly one of the most, we know from research, one of the most important things if we are really going to break the cycle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13999             Alberta is the leading province for domestic violence and for everything related to domestic violence it seems these days.  That public awareness that they provide on an ongoing basis is essential if we are really going to make a difference. And I have heard the concerns that, particularly for Central Alberta, that if we don't have that ongoing support and ongoing public awareness then these issues will become even bigger than they are already.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14000             So I just want to add my support to the application that is before you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14001             Thank you for your time.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 14002             MS LAMB:  Good afternoon.  Thank you for providing me the opportunity to appear before you today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14003             My name is Belinda Lamb and on behalf of the Alberta Children's Hospital Foundation I am here to support the CanWest MediaWorks application for the addition of transmitters in Calgary and Edmonton.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14004             The Alberta Children's Hospital Foundation has the great fortune of benefiting from wonderful partnerships with both CHCA‑TV Red Deer and its sister station Global Calgary.  Through these two stations CanWest is certainly our foundation's most loyal and generous media partner and for that we are tremendously grateful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14005             Global Calgary was the first TV station in this market to team up with our foundation more than 20 years ago.  From day one it offered its assistance enthusiastically and without expectation of reward or recognition.  Over the course of time it has championed 15 telethons for our kids, produced documentaries, promotional spots, provided creative services, special news coverage and a series of public service campaigns.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14006             All told, their gift of donated funds, broadcast productions, expertise and air time has totalled more than $5 million and that, in turn, helped inspire our community to contribute more than $20 million more.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14007             Red Deer's CHCA added its support to our foundation by broadcasting our public service announcements year round throughout its program schedule.  In just three years CHCA has generously donated more than $250,000 in air time.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14008             Ultimately through their airwaves both stations do a wonderful job of uniting Albertans in support of our Children's Hospital by highlighting the faces, voices and compelling stories of the children and caregivers at the heart of our facility.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14009             Community support plays a crucial role in the success of our hospital and how it is able to improve and save the lives of children.  It made possible the opening of our state of the art hospital this past September and made us home to Canada's first new freestanding children's hospital in 20 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14010             Donations help to boost our new hospital from ordinary to extraordinary.  And now we are working to fill the facility with more experts and more lifesaving tools so our team can deliver state of the art care.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14011             The Alberta Children's Hospital Foundation believes that adding CHCA transmitters in Calgary and Edmonton will provide greater opportunity for CanWest to rally Albertans around our hospital and ultimately benefit the 74,000 children and families who rely on specialized care each year.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14012             We truly appreciate that CanWest has fostered a culture of giving at these two stations.  In light of their impressive track record we believe CHCA will build on its commitment to generate public awareness and support for our hospital and the kids who need it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14013             Beyond helping our foundation, we believe CHCA will also cease the opportunity to help other worthwhile causes, promoting overall philanthropy in this market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14014             In closing, with the number of changes in the television industry, increased fragmentation and increased competition in the marketplace, we are thankful that CanWest has remained committed to charities like ours and to strengthening the local communities it serves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14015             Thank you for your time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14016             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Langford.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14017             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I guess I have a question for all of you.  You can choose to answer and maybe one answer will do for everyone, I am not sure.  Is this unique in the sense that are newspapers also helping you out, radio stations also helping you out in Red Deer or is this just an absolutely unique..?  I am not in anyway trying to diminish its importance, but is it the sort of sole assistant in your endeavours?


LISTNUM 1 \l 14018             MS LAMB:  From the foundation's perspective, while I think the desire for many of the other television stations is there, certainly we experience a lot of good will from other stations, the opportunity, the airtime isn't.  So this is certainly unique, this is beyond any media partnership we have ever experienced.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14019             MR. BARLOW:  I think the downsizing of the radio and the competition of the radio business, certainly in the Edmonton region, is such that you can rarely get a radio station out at any of your news events, rarely.  As far as newsprint, CanWest Media has always been supportive.  Having said that, so has the Sun empire, they have been very supportive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14020             But as far as the television industry, our experience at least and that of many of my colleagues, is that when you ask who is the best supporter in the television industry in Alberta Global CanWest Media always number one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14021             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, here is a trick question, but Ms Bell's in the audience so she can field it later.  But if we give them these licenses and they become super successful in the big city, do you think they will have any time left for you folks?


LISTNUM 1 \l 14022             MR. BARLOW:  When they had to develop, as Global and ITV when they started out, they had to develop their own market.  And as they grew and as they became more popular and more revenue was coming in we didn't see them drop us by the wayside and just deal with the big national advertisers.  They even increased their support for us and the exposure and, to me, the walked the talk that they talked back in the late 1970s they continue to do so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14023             MS LAMB:  From my perspective, I think that CanWest is already very successful.  So to be experiencing the type of generosity, speaking about Global Calgary specifically, while so successful I am pretty confident CHCA would as well.  And not claiming to be an expert on these things, but I think it has something to do with the type of airtime that is dedicated to us as well, it is not commercial airtime.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14024             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I suspect you might be right.  But still, it is always nice to know that they are being generous with it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14025             Thank you very much.  Those are my questions, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14026             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Barlow, Ms Lamb and I don't remember your name, but the representative of the Women's Association, thank you very much for your presentations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14027             We will go with the next interveners.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14028             THE SECRETARY:  I will now call Alan Weenink to come to the presentation table.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14029             You have 10 minutes to make your presentation.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 14030             MR. WEENINK:  Good afternoon.  My letter is not the perfect one, so we can go on from there.  Ladies and gentlemen, my name is Alan Weenink, I was born and raised in Lacombe, Alberta.  Lacombe's approximately 25 kilometres from Red Deer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14031             Some 32 years ago on a class tour I went through CKRE Television.  At that time I realized the importance of our television.  The concept of CHCA now to rebroadcast to Calgary and Edmonton with Red Deer and a provincial focus would be beneficial to others, other markets.  The benefit would be that it would open up the way for small markets to be included in what would truly be in Albertans' best interest.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14032             Unfortunately, this application is not in the best interest to Albertans.  This application disregards approximately 381,000 people that live in the extended markets of Calgary and Edmonton who do not have cable or satellite TV.  They will not benefit from this application and, in fact, their local TV stations will be losing advertising they need.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14033             It is not in the best interest to have a backdoor approach to a new service in Alberta.  The application for CHCA rebroadcast in Calgary and Edmonton, there should have been call in the City of Red Deer for this, because they are not a City of Calgary or Edmonton TV station.  In fact, I am really at odds right now with everything that is going in the broadcasting industry with CHUM/Bell applications.  And I really don't think right now anything deserves to be accepted or approved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14034             The Rogers' proposal for 38 was much more, I thought, within Calgary's best interest.  I would like to remind CanWest at this time that the greatest minds in Canadian broadcast history arrived from rural areas, including Manitoba.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14035             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14036             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes, if I may, Mr. Chair.  I just want to make sure I am clear here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14037             Are you suggesting that we don't license anyone or are you saying that maybe Rogers OMNI?  I just wasn't quite clear on that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14038             MR. WEENINK:  I would probably say the CanWest application, how it stands, don't license it right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14039             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And the others?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14040             MR. WEENINK:  You will have to make a decision upon that

LISTNUM 1 \l 14041             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We are good at that.  Well, some people say we are not good at it, but..

LISTNUM 1 \l 14042             MR. WEENINK:  Well, you are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14043             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Now, let me ask you about this CanWest.  What would you lose?  In a sense, they would still be over‑the‑air broadcasters and the people who didn't have cable and didn't have DTH would still be able to get them, maybe more people would be able to get them.  So where is the loss?  I just want to be clear on what your problem is with this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14044             MR. WEENINK:  Okay.  I have a satellite system at home.  Like, I could be picking up CHCH right now or CHCA they call it if I had the Shaw satellite or cable.  The benefit is or the loss is, if you look in the major markets like Toronto, British Columbia where a CH affiliate is present, often your number one shows start rescheduling.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14045             So what is hot right now like, oh what is that, Deal or No Deal, it is on Global Television Calgary right now and Edmonton, in Vancouver, Victoria it is on Victoria.  You know, so there would be a great loss for the people that live on the outer markets.  You know, they would be, like advertising is dollars, advertisers want people, people are dollars and people want programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14046             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, I think you have given the CanWest people something to think about and they will get another chance to respond.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14047             MR. WEENINK:  There should be another side to this too, having been born and raised in Red Deer.  I care about Red Deer and Central Alberta very much.  What I experienced growing up there is absolutely incredible, being on a farm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14048             But when you encompass the market of Calgary and Edmonton, okay, that turns out to be a pretty big national advertising market, close to two million.  What are the commitments for a station that broadcasts to two million?  Is it only nine and a half hours of news a week or is it more?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14049             I feel the people of Red Deer and area deserve to have a better TV station out of it.  And by saying that, I think it also contributes to our broadcasting system, on who we are.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14050             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14051             Those are my questions, Mr. Chair, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14052             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Weenink, in your oral presentation you are saying that the Commission should have made the call for applications for Red deer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14053             MR. WEENINK:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14054             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If we had done so would you have been an applicant?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14055             MR. WEENINK:  Pardon me?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14056             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Would you have applied yourself to operate a TV station in Red Deer?  And if no, who will have applied?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14057             MR. WEENINK:  Well like, Red Deer, if you consider Red Deer with rebroadcasters to Calgary and Edmonton, would have made the dynamics for the City of Red Deer to be come a Red Deer television station, you know, with an outer reach. CJIL probably would apply to that one.  I would take a guess The Miracle Channel.  The other incumbents, I don't know.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14058             You know, I have a personal feeling about the Alberta market that something is going to change here, but I have lived here all my life too, so I don't think I would have applied that fast.  But if the broadcasting industry looked really good and I had deep enough pockets for it, yes, I would have done it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14059             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14060             MR. WEENINK:  No problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14061             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14062             MR. WEENINK:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14063             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14064             THE SECRETARY:  The last appearing intervention will be presented by Alberta Motion Picture Industries Association.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14065             You have 10 minutes to make your presentation.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 14066             MR. BROOKS:  Mr. Chairman, commissioners, thank you for your patience, it has been a long day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14067             As you may recall from my appearance earlier today, my name is Alan Brooks, I am the Executive Director of the Alberta Motion Picture Industries Association.  It is a non‑profit association also known as AMPIA.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14068             As mentioned in my previous appearance, we proudly represent the many individuals involved in all aspects of Alberta's creative production community.  Independent producers in Alberta are continuously challenged to obtain reasonable license fees from broadcasters as well as securing all the necessary funding for the production of popular priority programming, programs that are not only popular with Canadian viewers, but exportable around the world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14069             With this critical funding issue in mind I am here today on behalf of our membership to support the applications from CanWest MediaWorks for the substantial expansion of audience reach for their Red Deer station.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14070             But our support also includes an expression of disappointment.  AMPIA has enjoyed a very positive relationship with CanWest Global over many years, especially with the management team in Calgary and Edmonton and we acknowledge the great work of Michael Ghent, who is CanWest's Senior Development Officer in Vancouver dealing with documentary programming.  Although we certainly appreciate CanWest's promise to spend a minimum of $10.5 million with independent producers in Alberta, AMPIA is disappointed that the amount of expenditure commitment fails to truly reflect the substantial and significant advertising revenues that will be realized when their Red Deer station becomes the CH network throughout Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14071             Being able to simulcast American programming in primetime in both Calgary and Edmonton will result in a financial windfall for CanWest.  AMPIA sees this new revenue as an exciting and unique opportunity to support Alberta's talented independent producers for the benefit of all Canadians.  Once a final amount is determined for the spending commitment AMPIA respectfully recommends that the funding be split between development and reasonable license fees and allocated on a yearly basis and we also recommend that it be made a condition of license.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14072             We were very encouraged to hear this morning that someone in Alberta will be hired by the Independent Production Fund to work with Alberta producers and avoid that famous $1,500 cup of coffee.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14073             As with our recommendations for the CTS applications, AMPIA requests that the requirement for annual reporting of expenditures also apply to the application from CanWest MediaWorks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14074             Thank you once again and I am available to answer any questions, if you have any.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14075             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Brooks, thank you very much.  I think we had an opportunity to have a discussion prior to this presentation, so we appreciate your attendance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14076             So this is the end of Phase III.  We will take a five‑minute break and we do Phase IV immediately after.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1755

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1805

LISTNUM 1 \l 14077             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.  Ms Secretary, we will now move to Phase IV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14078             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14079             We will now proceed to Phase IV in which applicants can reply to all interventions submitted on their application.  Applicants appear in reverse order.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14080             I would then ask CanWest MediaWorks to respond to all the interventions that were filed to their application.  You have 10 minutes for this purpose.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 14081             MS DORE:  Thank you.  Good evening, commissioners.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14082             For the record, my name is Kathy Dore and I am here with Charlotte Bell, Stan Schmidt, Chris McGinley, Barb Williams, Christine Cook and Brett Manlove to present our comments in this last phase of the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14083             First and foremost, we wish to thank the more than 600 parties who filed positive interventions supporting our proposal and, in particular, we wish to thank those interveners who travelled here today to support our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14084             CHUM states in its intervention that nothing is really changed in Edmonton and Calgary since the denial of theirs and our applications in 2004.  But let us look at the financial results in the market between 2003, the year upon which the Commission based its prior decision, and today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14085             In Edmonton total revenues for private conventional television in 2003 were $115.2 million, while in 2006 they were $123.4 million, an increase of 7.1 per cent.  In the five years leading up to the 2003 hearing the average annual growth rate in TV revenues had been negative, 0.1 per cent.  The average annual growth rate in Edmonton for the five years leading up to 2006 was 9 per cent.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14086             Similarly, in the past five years the average annual growth rate in PBIT was 11.7 per cent, while in the five years leading up to the last hearing it was 2.5 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14087             In Calgary the revenue increase has been more dramatic, going from $112.2 million to $127.2 million, an increase of 13 per cent.  In the five years leading up to the 2003 hearing the average annual growth rate had been 1.2 per cent and the average annual growth rate in Calgary for the five years leading up to 2006 was 9.2 per cent.  In terms of PBIT, the average annual growth rate was 12.1 per cent in the past five years, while in the five years leading up to the last review it was a negative ‑2.1 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14088             At the time of the last hearing for CHCA CHUM only operated Access Alberta in these markets.  They now have two stations to sell in both Calgary and Edmonton in addition to Access Alberta.  And while we do not wish to presume what your decision will be in the BGM transaction, their company could end up not only with two TV stations in each market, but with radio in each market as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14089             CHUM argues in its written brief that recently licensed new radio stations in the markets will put additional pressure on television revenues.  What they neglect to point out is that they themselves are the licensees of new radio stations in each of these markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14090             CHUM also states the lessons learned from the licensing of Toronto 1.  We believe the situation for CHCA is not analogous.  We are not talking about the licensing of a new station that will go out and compete for programming.  We already own the rights for programming in Alberta.  What we are seeking is an opportunity to exploit what we already own.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14091             Approval of this application would grant simultaneous substitution rights and permanency of carriage to a station that is already available in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14092             We have sympathy for CHUM's concern about the future of conventional television.  With all due respect to them, we could easily argue that it is CHCA that is the canary in the coal mine.  And while it could be argued that CanWest could cross subsidize the station from profits made elsewhere, we would remind CHUM that, in fact, the margins realized by CanWest conventional television operations are not significant.  Last year our broadcast operations combined, that margin was 6 per cent.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14093             In fact, profits from Toronto and Vancouver are being used to subsidize operations in Saskatchewan, the Maritimes and Quebec as well as local program schedules in Victoria and Red Deer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14094             I would like to now turn it over to Charlotte Bell.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14095             MS BELL:  Thank you, Kathy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14096             Multivan also quotes the previous decisions and indicates that they seen no difference from the past.  The particular twist is on concentration of ownership.  There have been changes in the market, as we discussed above.  In point of fact, there is a wide diversity of editorial opinion available in this province.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14097             What also has changed is that another player in this market, CHUM, has acquired additional media properties.  When we add their local television to the many specialty services there is another player who has a significant share of tuning.  CTV's share of hours tuned in this market greatly exceeds our own, even if we only count their local stations.  And when we add NTSN, Comedy, Outdoor Life, Discovery and their many other speciality services, they bypass our share greatly.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14098             We do find inaccurate Multivan's suggestion that we do not contribute to meeting the objectives of the Act because we do not add new stations in Calgary and Edmonton.  In fact, maintenance of local service in a small market with no other local television service is entirely consistent with the objectives of the Act, as are the significant initiatives we have proposed to support and highlight the achievements of the Aboriginal communities in Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14099             We would also add that the $10.5 million Independent Production Fund we have proposed for Alberta producers also significantly contributes to meeting several of the objectives at section 3 of the Act.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14100             It is also important to note here that this proposal is entirely consistent with a number of similar proposals that have been approved by the Commission over the years.  To cite a few examples, in 1994 the Commission allowed CHCH TV, at the time was owned by WIC Communications, to establish transmitters in a number of communities across Ontario, including Ottawa, London, Peterborough and Sudbury.  This application was indeed approved by the Commission.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14101             And consistent with policy to extend Canadian signals into distant markets, the applicant refrained from soliciting local ads and consequently did not propose any local programming in those communities.  Rather, additional money towards primetime programming was proposed.  Again, this is entirely consistent with the approach we have put together here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14102             More recently, the Commission allowed both CTS and OMNI's Toronto signals to be extended into Ottawa, again without any local enhancements in that market.  This was also consistent with Commission policy and the approach we have taken here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14103             In 2004 the Commission allowed Rogers to acquire Trinity Broadcasting's religious station in Vancouver and add a transmitter in Victoria on the basis that it would provide residents who relied on over‑the‑air television in Victoria access to the station.  It would also allow NOWTV to generate additional national revenues and provide the station with a level playing field with incumbents in the market.  No programming enhancements of any kind were proposed in exchange for approval of that transmitter.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14104             The production industry organizations raised issues concerning the amount of our contribution, the incrementality of our proposal and the need for local management of the money we propose to devote to priority programming.  As we have outlined this morning, we heard the latter two concerns and we redirected the money to the Independent Production Fund who will manage this money for us.  They will bring their proven expertise to providing top‑up money to Alberta independent producers for programs that could be aired on any television service and they have committed to ensuring an local liaison with producers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14105             With regard to the amounts, the producers compare our proposals to those made by CHUM in its previous application in 2003.  With due respect, this simply is not a fair comparison. While we will generate approximately $100 million in new revenues at CHCA, about a third of this will come out of the existing Global stations in Calgary and Edmonton.  The net benefit to CanWest is about $66 million over seven years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14106             We propose $10.5 million in production funding, that is 17 per cent of the value as a benefit to CanWest, that is very significant.  In comparison, we reviewed CHUM's applications for 2003 and we note that CHUM projected about $98 million in revenue from Edmonton alone and $116 million from the Calgary market.  So it was a combined $224 million, more than three times our projected net revenues, with a proposed commitment of $15 million over seven years.  Cleary, our proposals are superior in relation to the amount of revenues projected.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14107             Finally, Mr. Weenink is concerned that we will not be able to reach him with our signals.  We share his concerns to some extent.  While it is true that our off‑air signal will probably not cover his home, we will be an extra regional signal for High River Cable.  So if he is a cable subscriber he should receive our channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14108             Unfortunately, if he is a satellite subscriber, as he mentioned earlier, we cannot offer him much hope since neither satellite provider has chosen to carry CHCA.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14109             In terms of his comments concerning the quality of our service, we would point to the more than 600 individuals and organizations who supported our proposal and support CanWest overall.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14110             Thank you very much for your attention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14111             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Dore, Madam Bell, thank you very much for your reply.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14112             So we will hear the next applicant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14113             THE SECRETARY:  I would call on MVBC Holdings Limited to come forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14114             Please go ahead when you are ready.  You have 10 minutes for your presentation.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE


LISTNUM 1 \l 14115             MR. REITMAYER:  Thank you.  Hopefully, we will be brief.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14116             For the record, I am Art Reitmayer and I am joined by Johnny Michel, Peter Gillespie and Greg Kane.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14117             First of all, I would like to thank the many individuals and groups who have written letters of support and some who have taken time out of their busy schedules to come to the hearing to express their support for our vision of ethnic television services in Calgary and Edmonton.  Their participation is a clear demonstration of how vibrant the ethnic communities are in those cities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14118             Our support comes from a wide range of backgrounds, including producers of multicultural programming, individuals, ethnic and cultural community leaders.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14119             While I hesitate to single out one group, I would like to make a special mention of the members of our advisory councils.  You have now been able to see three of them for yourself and hear directly from them.  We hope they have impressed you as much as they have impressed us with their commitment to communities and their passion for the reflection of their ethnic values that can be accomplished through channel m's vision of ethnic television in Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14120             They have become an important part of the channel m family and we can't thank them enough for their volunteer support and ongoing advice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14121             We will now reply to the interventions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14122             Rogers has raised four issues with respect to our application and we will address each of them in turn.  Programming.  Rogers' intervention alleges that we do not have separate schedules, but they are almost identical.  The fact is we have very distinct approaches to the programming for Calgary and Edmonton respectively. We addressed this in detail in Phase I and we do not propose to repeat the discussion except to reiterate that the ethnic communities in Edmonton and Calgary are very different and the programming decisions have been driven by extensive consultation and will reflect these differences.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14123             Revenue.  The Rogers' intervention with respect to forecast revenue focused on a statement in the Deloitte report at page 29 that Multivan's CPR will be lower than the market average.  They claim we also forgot the discount revenues by 15 per cent.  Once again, we have explained that we are not in error and we would point out that CanWest in their original intervention described our cost per rating point as the "more reasonable projection" than OMNI's.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14124             For all the reasons we have provided in Phases I and II we can reply by saying our revenue projections, based upon our cost per rating point, is not only reasonable but is also tested and realistic.  Our position is reinforced by the fact that the figures provided by CanWest at Appendix 4(a) of their application uses year one net cost per rating point figures for Calgary of $235 and Edmonton of $225, which are much higher than ours.  In short, we stand by everything in our application and there is no need for any revisions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14125             Conditions of license.  Rogers has stated that it is confused as to our conditions of license and has made an assertion that if 68 per cent is ethnic then 32 per cent must be non‑ethnic regardless of language of origin.  In Rogers' view U.S. programming is defined as what is leftover after ethnic.  Once again, we have addressed this issue with the Commission in Phase I and do not propose to repeat that explanation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14126             In summary, the 32 per cent can be comprised of foreign or domestic non‑ethnic programming.  And we have stated on the record that we would accept a condition of license that mirrors the broadcast regulations with respect to foreign programming of 40 per cent or 50 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14127             Tangible benefits.  Rogers has asserted that tangible benefits must be clear and unequivocable, incremental and severable.  Measured by our experience in Vancouver, we are extremely proud of our administration of tangible benefits and the relationships we have established with our independent producers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14128             We have built capacity in the market through synergistic and mutually beneficial relationships with this community.  We have lived up to and, in many cases, exceeded all of those commitments.  Tangible benefits are also what a licensee brings to the local community.  In our application for Alberta we have committed to establishing local operations with news, information, entertainment, educational and human‑interest programming totalling $40 million over our seven‑year license term.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14129             Additionally, we have committed to spending $650,000 on script and concept and $280,000 on educational initiatives.  We believe these are substantial and consequential tangible benefits that channel m will deliver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14130             Other interventions.  Interventions were also filed by CFTPA, Shaw, CanWest, CHUM and Fairchild.  All of the matters raised in those interventions have been explored during Phases I and II of these hearings.  And once again, we do not propose to repeat our responses.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14131             Mr. Chair and commissioners, we stated in our opening remarks that this is an extremely important proceeding for channel m, as well as the citizens of Calgary and Edmonton.  We have been impressed with the careful scrutiny that the Commission has given to all of the applications.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14132             We would like to thank you and, through you, the Commission staff for everyone's dedication and hard work.  We wish you well in your important deliberations and we would be please to answer any questions you might have.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14133             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Reitmayer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14134             We don't have any questions.  Thank you very much for your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14135             We will now hear the next applicant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14136             THE SECRETARY:  I will now call Rogers Broadcasting Limited to come forward.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14137             You have 10 minutes to make your presentation.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 14138             MR. STRATI:  I will try and regain my voice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14139             Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, thank you for your attention throughout this proceeding.  We want to briefly respond to some questions you have asked earlier and to a few points raised by channel m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14140             First, you asked about the growth of the Chinese and Mandarin languages in Calgary and Edmonton.  We have summarized the information we were able to gather from different sources.  Unfortunately, the census has not yet been released, so we have summarized by home language, knowledge of language, mother tongue and ethnic origin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14141             We tried to break it down between Chinese total and not otherwise specified, which is one category, Cantonese, Mandarin and Hakka, so it is broken down into three different languages in one.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14142             Second, you ask how Shaw could fit us into their basic cable line up.  Of note, in their intervention Shaw is quite prepared to carry our service on basic.  They simply want to locate the service outside of the basic band. Shaw and every other cable operator go through realignments of their channels regularly.  Shaw, in particular, recently went through a major realignment of their channels.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14143             The regulations are clear on what distributors' obligations are and they should meet those obligations.  If the primary band is fully occupied by priority channels it would be reasonable to locate new local services as close to the primary band as possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14144             I have also provided a copy of the most recent ‑‑ just off the web ‑‑ the Calgary and Edmonton cable line ups.  I know, Commissioner Langford, you were talking about some positioning. And we could certainly go through the process you sort of would go through, hypothetically, if you obtained a local station, which is to look at what the restricted channels are, what the basic band looks like and the American services, etc.  And you can start looking at two to 13 and then 13 up to the first tier and then of course above the tiers, which is extended basic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14145             So it gives you a quick idea and we can go through that if you would like, you would see where the two issues that Shaw had raised.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14146             Finally, we undertook to provide you with the composition of our Radio Advisory Board in Calgary.  This board has been in place since 1989 and we filed the current composition of the board along with the Rogers Radio Executive Committee.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14147             We would like to note that we are not planning to use the Radio Advisory Board as the OMNI Advisory Board.  We have separate radio and TV advisory boards in Vancouver and the Fraser Valley and we would certainly do the same thing in Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14148             Our objective is always to ensure a voice for local communities.  And one of our points of heritage is that we invented the advisory board concept at OMNI.  We are pleased that so many other companies have found the concept to be valuable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14149             Technical issues were raised about our channels and power levels.  But as was pointed out by the Vice‑Chair in other discussions, our proposals have been officially certified by Industry Canada.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14150             We were also asked what the impact on our business plan would be if the Commission licensed Global as well as OMNI.  In these circumstances we would accept the license as issued with all the conditions of license and commitments that we proposed, although we certainly believe that the profitability of other business would be pushed back perhaps a year or two.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14151             We were asked what effect the licensing of both channel m and OMNI would have on our business plan.  We believe that this would render the business plan unworkable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14152             We were also asked whether our business plan could sustain the licensing of OMNI in one of Edmonton or Calgary and channel m in the other city.  Again, our business plan and our approach is based on the aggregation of audiences in both cities and could not sustain the licensing of only on city.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14153             Comments were made of OMNI not having rigorous newsgathering and production personnel in both Edmonton and Calgary.  Our plans clearly include newsgathering and production facilities in both cities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14154             We have a long history of innovation with our news programming and are particularly proud of our idea to combine the Calgary and Edmonton newscast into a regional newscast.  This provides each language group with the initial mass to support a high‑quality service that is accessible for all the groups in the local community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14155             More importantly, the Chinese and South Asian communities are interested in the activities of their community in the other city and regularly travel to events and activities in the other city.  Our newsgathering activities will draw on stories from both markets, even though production will occur in only one of these cities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14156             Although we are devoting a lot of programming to the needs of the newer ethno‑cultural groups, which is Chinese, South Asian and Arabic, older established groups such as German, Ukrainian and Polish most certainly have a place on our schedule.  We have proposed local programming as well as programming from OMNI in Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14157             There was some discussion about whether Alberta is more like Vancouver or more like Toronto.  The truth is that neither comparison is appropriate.  This province and its ethno‑cultural communities are distinct and unique with their own needs and wants.  We would be delighted to receive the honour and the privilege of serving those needs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14158             Thank you for the opportunity to make a proposal to you.  Before I conclude, I must thank the many people we have met here, both individually, the associations and the various, whether it is a linguistic group, a cultural group, a local business association or community activists, you have met some of them today.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14159             I remember when we first me Vilma Dawson, we then went to an international human rights event where she was there and Fo Niemi from Montreal came.  She is a wonderful local community activist here in Calgary and I remember from the event, it was a great opportunity, we said if OMNI was here how we would have worked together for the event, promoted the event, covered the event and just really built on the event.  I mean, Fo Niemi was here, he was from Montreal, he was here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14160             And the other element is also Michael Gretton was here and talked about SAHLA, a wonderful linguistics organization here in Calgary.  Again, we were at their Christmas Day event and met 25‑30 different school operators in the community.  Again, a wonderful wonderful diversity here in this city and they really are champions in their community and we have met so many of them and it has been wonderful to work with them and we thank them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14161             Thank you, Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, Commission staff, for your time and attention.  We would be glad to answer any questions you might have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14162             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Strati, Mr. Sole, to all of your group, thank you very much.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14163             We will now hear the next applicant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14164             THE SECRETARY:  I will now call on The Miracle Channel Association to come forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14165             You have 10 minutes to make your presentation.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 14166             MR. KLASSEN:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14167             I would just like to start off by first of all thanking all of those who have intervened on behalf of The Miracle Channel.  The more than 650 letters, faxes and emails of support that we have received from people that have come to our support and our aid, asking for The Miracle Channel to be licensed in both Calgary and Edmonton, people of faith who have found that the religious programming that we offer is a source of hope and encouragement in sometimes some very stressful times.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14168             Personally, I just would like to mention just a few of the calls and letters that we get from people who, when they are on the brink of suicide or of divorce or they have other relational issues or spiritual issues, find great comfort in being able to watch The Miracle Channel.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14169             I would like to thank the Commission for their support and the Commission staff for working with us throughout this application process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14170             We would also like to thank the other applicants that have applied as well.  The interventions and the presentations that we have heard here this week have been very enlightening, very welcome and very well done.  At times we felt that, yes, they will get the license and oh, no, they won't and maybe those ones will get the license and, no, maybe they won't.  So we do not in anyway envy the role that you as commissioners have in trying to decide the outcome of this application process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14171             We do want to reiterate a couple of points though.  Firstly, we do feel that there is a very strong and demonstrable need for The Miracle Channel in Calgary and Edmonton.  We have had so many people requesting The Miracle Channel in Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14172             A lot of these people have noticed that we have been available on DTH, some of them have found our website, but they are asking when can you be on cable?  And we have approached Shaw Cable many times trying to enter into some negotiation, trying to be as flexible as possible, but getting different answers every time and not being able to secure that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14173             That is why during the call to this application we came forward and were grateful to be able to have the opportunity to meet with you in this venue to ask you to please consider our applications to be in these areas, which we feel are holes in our coverage here in Alberta since we are also on other cable systems in Alberta, including Persona, Camrose, the original Monarch Cable system, Slave Lake Cable, Northwestel Cable and Northern Cable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14174             I would like to just respond briefly to some of the things that have been said regarding The Miracle Channel by some of the other applicants.  First of all, with channel m where they stated that they didn't feel that we had any local programming, anything to offer in the Calgary and Edmonton areas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14175             I would just like, for the record, to mention that the independent Alberta productions that The Miracle Channel does work with include:  Times of Refreshing, which is from Calgary; Off the Wall, which is from the Edmonton area; Victory Presents the Overcomers, which is from Edmonton; For Life, which is from Calgary; A Word of Faith, which is from the Red Deer area, and there are many others from other parts of Alberta not included in the Calgary and Edmonton area.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14176             We have worked with many of these program producers in helping them, not only to produce their program, but also in the airing of their program.  Many of these are newcomers to the broadcast industry and they have been able to find a way to access their audience through The Miracle Channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14177             Many of then have indicated to us, however though, that they would like to be able to reach their own local audience in Calgary and Edmonton through The Miracle Channel and that is why they have been very supportive in working with The Miracle Channel for many years, waiting for that day when we would be able to be seen locally and terrestrially in Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14178             I would like to also mention for the Commission again that we have resubmitted our financial numbers to better indicate our financial commitments that we will invest approximately $17 million in Alberta programming over the term of the license, should we be approved, in both Edmonton and Calgary.  And should you have any further questions on that our VP of finance, Ken Prestage, will be glad to answer any of those questions of that submission.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14179             As was mentioned in our earlier presentation, we agree with the former CRTC Chairman, Charles Dalfen, when he announced in a framework for the distribution of over‑the‑air digital television signals in 2003 said:

"For the transition to digital to work, digital services need to be widely distributed so that Canadians can watch them. Giving viewers better access to digital signals will help drive the transition to digital to the benefit of the broadcasting system as a whole." (As Read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 14180             We realize that as we march towards digital it is kind of like the chicken and the egg, who is going to be first to go digital, consumers, broadcasters?  Obviously, it has to be the broadcasters.  Obviously, the signal has to be there to push the consumer demand for the digital reception equipment that is needed to receive these digital television signals.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14181             We are glad to be able to make that a commitment here in Calgary and Edmonton that we would accept and that we would put up these digital transmitters.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14182             The Miracle Channel has always strived at being a pioneer in religious broadcasting in Canada and will continue to offer this same spirit to the applications before you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14183             In closing, I would just like to say that the need of the service in this area is proven, as is the viability, the integrity and success of our operation.  We continue to work with Commission staff on any areas that they feel we may need to work a little bit harder and we have indicated that in our acceptance of conditions of license.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14184             In our view, there is no negative impact to already existing broadcasters in these cities and the other applicants have not intervened against us.  And in our opinion, many consumers are ready to begin receiving digital off‑air transmission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14185             We have accepted and have announced to you that we can co‑exist with any or all of the other applicants and only CTS has felt that we would be a danger to them in the sales of their block airtime.  We respectfully disagree with that, feeling that our niche service would not be a detriment to them or any other applicant in areas of competition of airtime sales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14186             That concludes our presentation at this time.  We stand here for any questions you may have for us.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14187             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Langford.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14188             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Just one question.  Were you here when Mr. Switzer and his team from CHUM gave their presentation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14189             MR. KLASSEN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14190             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And he indicated that he had some reservations even about your application, though the Chairman, as I recall, reminded him that there were no advertisements being sold.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14191             Could you respond to that, to his hesitations, to his concerns?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14192             MR. KLASSEN:  Well, I will point to CHUM's written presentation in which they indicated that they didn't feel that The Miracle Channel would be a significant problem to them.  Perhaps they have reservations overall, hedging their bets, I don't know.  But in their written submission they did say that they didn't feel that there would be any significant problems.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14193             MR. PRESTAGE:  I think that, if I can read something into it, they may have been concerned about a phenomenon that happened in the Vancouver market where a religious station morphed ‑‑ I will use the word that was used in the hearing for that religious station ‑‑ into something that would be deemed more family‑friendly, as commissioners have alluded to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14194             They may fear that we are going to do that.  I can assure this Commission we have no intention, we are a religious station and probably, as some of the other interveners have commented on, we are a purely religious station, we don't carry family‑friendly sitcoms or any of that kind of stuff at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14195             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, if religious stations can't be pure, I don't know who can.  That answers my question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14196             Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14197             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14198             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you for providing the projections.  And I have just had time to look at your old projections under 2.1 for Edmonton.  And if I am looking at the totals correctly, what has increased in terms of programming is ‑‑ it looks like there is an increase of $750,000, am I right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14199             MR. PRESTAGE:  For the programming line, yes, and also there is an increase in the in‑house production that we propose to do.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14200             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  Where would I find that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14201             MR. PRESTAGE:  That is 66 per cent of administration, the line administration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14202             COMMISSION CRAM:  Okay.  So then that is why administration went up $2 million?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14203             MR. PRESTAGE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14204             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  I was just wondering if anybody was getting a bonus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14205             MR. PRESTAGE:  No, no.  The biggest portion of what we spend on production right now is for in‑house productions and we will continue to spend doing more.  Again, we kind of built the industry.  There wasn't a lot of programming out there and we do a lot of programming for people and for ourselves as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14206             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  How much of that increase was for programming then, all of it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14207             MR. PRESTAGE:  Of which?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14208             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Of administration.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14209             MR. PRESTAGE:  Yes, everything that we spent our money on was for increases in programming, both in programming as direct expenses for programming that we do out‑of‑house, as well as for programming that we do in‑house.  What we propose to do is do more programming and better programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14210             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  And it would be ditto with Calgary?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14211             MR. PRESTAGE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14212             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14213             MR. PRESTAGE:  And then there is a synergy where, if we were licensed for both Calgary and Edmonton, there would be more money so we would spend more money on those two markets.  We would do more productions is what we would do, more local television.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14214             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay, thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14215             Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14216             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Dewert, in the panel that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14217             MR. KLASSEN:  Mr. Klassen, if I could correct you, Mr. Klassen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14218             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Klassen, yes, true.  I apologize.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14219             This happened in the panel appearing in support of CanWest.  We heard Mr. Barlow of the Catholic Charities, Catholic Social Services Sign of Hope praising the role of CanWest.  Since you are currently the sole religious television outlet serving Alberta, at least Southern Alberta, but having its service available through cable or satellite across all of Alberta, are you working with this organization?  And if yes, what are you doing for them?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14220             MR. KLASSEN:  I am personally not familiar with this organization, but I know that we are working with many others and I will defer to Mr. Prestage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14221             MR. PRESTAGE:  I would like to point out a line on our projections here, it is called other donations.  The Miracle Channel currently supports many different charitable organizations through a donation mechanism.  Again, if I can refer back to Canada Revenue Agency rules, we have to spend 80 per cent of our money on charitable purposes and we can spend some of that by donating money to other charities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14222             And if you look across the numbers here, we are proposing to donate to other charities $5 million in the term of our license as well.  Some of those would be from all different regions of Canada, but certainly a lot of them within the province of Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14223             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And is that airtime or is it cash?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14224             MR. PRESTAGE:  No, that is cash.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14225             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is cash.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14226             MR. PRESTAGE:  We spend money, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14227             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You spend the real money.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14228             MR. PRESTAGE:  Yes.  We also provide all kinds of airtime for different operations as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14229             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Mr. Klassen, thank you very much for your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14230             We will now hear the last applicant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14231             THE SECRETARY:  I will now call Crossroads Television System to come forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14232             You have 10 minutes to make your presentation.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 14233             MR. GRAY:  Good evening and thank you for staying, if you had a choice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14234             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  There is not a big element of choice in that really, but we are grateful for your gratitude.

‑‑‑ LAUGHTER / RIRES

LISTNUM 1 \l 14235             MR. GRAY:  My name is Richard Gray. With me is Glenn Stewart, our Marketing Director, and also to my left is Mr. Fred Vanstone, Chair of our Board.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14236             Thank you for this opportunity to summarize and to wrap up the day.  I would like to thank the 1,100 plus individuals who sent emails and wrote letters in support of our application as well and also to thank the three individuals who took time on a snowy day and cold day in Calgary to come and appear personally today, so I do thank them as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14237             I would like to make some brief comments in response to the written intervention from Shaw Communications, and the Shaw submission stated two things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14238             First, Shaw opposes approving any new licenses for television programming undertakings in either Edmonton or Calgary unless the applicants commit to the following:  waiver of the television station's entitlement to distribution of its programming services on the basic band as required pursuant to the BDU regulations.  We certainly recognize the BDU concerns and we have in good faith proposed to waive our priority carriage on the basic band on the understanding that we would be required to be carried no higher than channel 22 as a non‑restrictive low‑band basic cable service.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14239             And then provided there is flexibility in Calgary and Edmonton, we do feel that we are being as widely available as possible and causing as little distribution disruption as possible for the cable systems.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14240             The second submission that Shaw made was the waiver of television stations' entitlement to distribution of its programming services on a non‑restricted channel as is required by the regulations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14241             In Toronto we agreed to restricted channel 9 placement and it has proven to be an ongoing problem for CTS with continued viewer and advertiser complaints of poor reception quality.  Advertising agency buyers are extremely reticent to buy CTS when, if their own Toronto homes, the channel 9 reception is unacceptable, the quality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14242             After several years of viewer and advertiser complaints about the channel 9 reception we commissioned Decima Research to gauge the extent of this problem.  And what they discovered in their research, 21 per cent of those surveyed agreeing that the picture quality was not sharp and clear and easy to view.  So to get a second opinion, we later had Nielsen Media Research commissioned and they simply confirmed the earlier Decima Research.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14243             So given the historical outcome of this accepting a restricted channel in Toronto, we would not wish to agree to being placed on a restricted channel in Calgary or Edmonton.  We think that every viewer in these cities deserves to have local religious television that is sharp, clear and easy to view.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14244             Those are my comments concerning the written submission of Shaw.  And Mr. Stewart has some comments as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14245             MR. STEWART:  Thank you, Mr. Gray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14246             Commissioners, Mr. Chairman, I had a lot of notes prepared regarding the intervention by CHUM Limited, but colleagues at other stations have covered off most of the arguments, so I will be brief, there is not a lot to restate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14247             I would remind the Commission that, regarding CHUM's concerns, it is our intention not to actively pursue local advertising in these markets of Calgary and Edmonton, so that won't be a factor with respect to CHUM's concerns.  And that we expect our national revenue to come largely from market growth and from repatriation of U.S. dollars from the border stations, Spokane in particular, and therefore should not impact the CHUM stations negatively to any real degree.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14248             Lastly, in eight years of experience in Toronto we have shown that we have not negatively impacted the CHUM or A‑Channel stations in the Toronto market.  So I respectfully submit that of all the stations before you today, of those selling commercials, ours would be the least impactful against the CHUM stations or any of the incumbents for that matter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14249             Lastly, I would like to just mention or reiterate that it was CTS's applications that initiated this process some 18 months ago and we, of course, realized that that could prompt a call by the Commission, which it did, and that others would be coming forward with their applications and, yes, we did contemplate other stations being licensed in the market along with ourselves, should the Commission deem our applications worthy and we hope that you do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14250             We are here to tell you tonight that our business plan is solid, it contemplated more than one station being licensed in each market and that our business plan and our related commitments stand as filed in each market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14251             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14252             Mr. Vanstone I think wants to speak.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14253             MR. GRAY:  Yes, over to Fred for the final comments, thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14254             MR. VANSTONE:  Mr. Chairman, we would like to than the Commission and staff for their thoroughness as we have worked our way through the application process.  We would particularly like to thank the hearing commissioners for their attention during our presentations and for the hearing staff for their courtesies while we have been here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14255             Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14256             THE CHAIRPERSON:  This completes your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14257             Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14258             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I am sorry, I have forgotten your name, but I will say Mr. Gray, but it was not Mr. Gray, it was you, sir, and I ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 14259             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Stewart.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14260             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Mr. Stewart.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14261             MR. STEWART:  Glenn Stewart.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14262             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You said you will not actively pursue local advertising?

LISTNUM 1 \l 14263             MR. STEWART:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14264             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And I guess I didn't realize that and I should have because I was going over all my notes, and you don't have any sales people in Alberta.


LISTNUM 1 \l 14265             MR. STEWART:  Correct.  The 5 per cent that we have allocated or proposed or projected is simply advertisers in each community who approach our stations to advertise, perhaps based solely on the nature of the stations themselves.  Whether it is a local car dealer who sees merit in advertising on our stations or, largely, church groups and other not‑for‑profit for‑cause organizations who would want to advertise on CTS, on our airwaves based on our programming, mostly.  That is where that money is going to come from.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14266             We will not have a sales force, we won't have a sales manager here.  Our local station management will be equipped to answer the needs of those advertisers who seek us out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14267             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14268             Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14269             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, Mr. Gray, Mr. Vanstone, Mr. Stewart, thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14270             This completes Phase IV of the public hearing.  We will adjourn until 8:30 tomorrow morning to hear the application by Only Imagine Inc.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14271             Have a nice evening.

‑‑‑ Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1850, to resume

    on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 at 0830 /

    L'audience est ajournée à 1850 pour reprendre

    le mercredi 14 février 2007 à 0830


 

 

 

 

REPORTERS

 

 

 

 

_____________________     _____________________

Doug Lebel                Lynda Johansson

 

 

 

 

_____________________     _____________________

Monique Mahoney           Jennifer Cheslock

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

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