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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE
THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT
LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /
PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Delta Bow Valley Delta Bow Valley
209 4th Avenue SE 209, 4th Avenue SE
Calgary, Alberta Calgary (Alberta)
February 12, 2007 Le 12 février 2007
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
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either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
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officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
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Canadian Radio‑television and
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
Transcript / Transcription
VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /
PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Michel Arpin Chairperson / Président
Rita Cugini Commissioner / Conseillère
Barbara Cram Commissioner / Conseillère
Stuart Langford Commissioner / Conseiller
Ronald Williams Commissioner / Conseiller
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
Jade Roy Secretary / Secrétaire
Peter McCallum Legal Counsel /
Marie-Claude Mentor Hearing Manager /
Gérante de l'audience
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Delta Bow Valley Delta Bow Valley
209 4th Avenue SE 209, 4th Avenue SE
Calgary, Alberta Calgary (Alberta)
February 12, 2007 Le 12 février 2007
TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE / PARA
PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:
Crossroads Television System 7 / 50
The Miracle Channel Association 136 / 1114
Rogers Broadcasting Limited 206 / 1576
‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Monday, February 12, 2007
at 9:30 a.m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. For those who don't know me, my name is Michel Arpin.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12 I am wearing a headset, not because I will be listening to the translation, but because I am partially hearing impaired and I want to make sure that I hear what you say to the Commission during your appearance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to this public hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14 My name is Michel Arpin, and I am the Vice Chair of Broadcasting for the CRTC.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15 I will be presiding over this hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16 Joining me on the panel are my colleagues Barbara Cram, Regional Commissioner for Manitoba and Saskatchewan; Rita Cugina, Regional Commissioner for Ontario; Stuart Langford, at the far left, National Commissioner; and Ronald Williams, Regional Commissioner for Alberta and the Northwest Territories.
LISTNUM 1 \l 17 The Commission team assisting us includes Hearing Manager Marie‑Claude Mentor, who is also a Senior Broadcasting Analyst; Peter McCallum, Legal Counsel; and Jade Roy, Hearing Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 18 Please speak with Ms Roy if you have any questions with regard to hearing procedures.
LISTNUM 1 \l 19 At this hearing we will first examine 10 applications to provide new television services to the Calgary and Edmonton markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 110 We will then review an application by Only Imagine Inc. for a licence to operate a relay distribution undertaking.
LISTNUM 1 \l 111 The panel will begin by considering proposals for Crossroads Television System to operate an English‑language religious television programming undertaking in Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 112 This will be followed by two applications presented by The Miracle Channel Association to operate an English‑language transitional digital television programming undertaking in Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 113 In both of these applications The Miracle Channel Association is proposing that the station simulcast the current programming of CJIL‑TV, Lethbridge, a religious station, in its entirety.
LISTNUM 1 \l 114 Next, the panel will consider two applications each from Rogers Broadcasting Limited and MVBC Holdings Limited to operate multilingual ethnic television programming undertakings in Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 115 Rogers Broadcasting is proposing to direct programming to 25 ethnic groups, in 19 different languages, while MVBC Holdings is proposing to direct programming to 17 ethnic groups, in 17 different languages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 116 We will then review the application from CanWest MediaWorks Inc. to amend the licence of CHCA‑TV, Red Deer, in order to have TV transmitters in Calgary and Edmonton to broadcast its programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 117 The applicant indicated that it will not solicit local advertising in the markets in question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 118 Some of these applications are competing, technically, for the use of the same channel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 119 The panel will then assess the application from Only Imagine Inc. for a licence to operate a relay distribution undertaking. The proposed undertaking would insert commercial advertisements or promotional materials into the local availabilities of non‑Canadian programming services distributed by various broadcasting distribution undertakings across the country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 120 The Commission intends to discuss various issues with the applicant related to the use of local availabilities and the U.S. programming services for commercial advertising, and any potential impact on Canadian programming services and broadcasting distribution undertakings.
LISTNUM 1 \l 121 I will now invite the Hearing Secretary, Jade Roy, to explain the procedures we will be following.
LISTNUM 1 \l 122 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 123 Before beginning, I would like to go over a few housekeeping matters to ensure the proper conduct of the hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 124 When you are in the hearing room, I would ask you to please turn off your cellphones, beepers, Blackberrys and other text messaging devices, as they are unwelcome distractions for participants and Commissioners, and they cause interference on the internal communications system used by our translators.
LISTNUM 1 \l 125 We would appreciate your cooperation in this regard throughout the hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 126 We expect the hearing to take approximately three days. Tuesday and Wednesday we will begin each morning at 8:30 a.m., and finish around 5:30 p.m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 127 We will take an hour for lunch, and a break in the morning and in the afternoon.
LISTNUM 1 \l 128 We will let you know of any schedule changes that may occur.
LISTNUM 1 \l 129 The Clearwater Room, located on the first floor, will serve as the Examination Room, where you can examine the public files of the applications being considered at this hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 130 As indicated on the agenda, the telephone number of the Examination Room is 403‑205‑5430.
LISTNUM 1 \l 131 There is a verbatim transcript of this hearing being taken by the court reporter sitting at the table in front of me. If you have any questions on how to obtain all or part of this transcript, please approach the court reporter during a break.
LISTNUM 1 \l 132 Please note that the full transcript will be made available on the Commission's website shortly after the conclusion of the hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 133 Simultaneous translation is available during the hearing. You can obtain a translation receiver through the technician at the back of the room. The English interpretation is on Channel 1, and the French is on Channel 2.
LISTNUM 1 \l 134 Finally, we will proceed at the hearing with a four‑phase process, as follows:
LISTNUM 1 \l 135 First, each applicant will be granted 30 minutes to make its presentation for both the Calgary and Edmonton markets. Questions from the Commission will follow each presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 136 In Phase 2, the applicants re‑appear, in the same order, to intervene, if they wish, on the competing applications. Ten minutes are allowed for this purpose. Questions from the Commission may follow each intervention.
LISTNUM 1 \l 137 In Phase 3, other parties will appear in the order set out in the agenda to present their appearing interventions, and 10 minutes will be allowed for each presentation. Again, questions from the Commission may follow.
LISTNUM 1 \l 138 Phase 4 provides an opportunity for each applicant to reply to all of the interventions submitted on their application. Applicants appear in reverse order. Ten minutes will be allowed for this reply. Again, questions may follow.
LISTNUM 1 \l 139 For the record, we wish to inform you of the following:
LISTNUM 1 \l 140 Three documents were added to the examination files for The Miracle Channel Association Applications 2006‑05181 and 2006‑04969. The documents are:
LISTNUM 1 \l 141 The finalized version of The Miracle Channel Association's internal fundraising policy for Station CJIL‑TV, Lethbridge, Alberta, including a covering letter and a final staff determination letter that explains the Commission's past position on The Miracle Channel Association's fundraising policy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 142 Also, the 2006 preliminary financial data for the Calgary and Edmonton markets is available in the Examination Room.
LISTNUM 1 \l 143 Finally, please note that for Application 2005‑14340, for the renewal of the licence of CKCL‑FM in Chilliwack by Rogers Broadcasting Limited, additional documents have recently been added to the public examination file, and additional correspondence will follow.
LISTNUM 1 \l 144 Please note that CHUM Limited has withdrawn its Application 2006‑15015, which was listed as a non‑appearing item for this public hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 145 Phase 1: Now, Mr. Chairman, we will proceed with Items 1 and 2 on the agenda, which are applications by Crossroads Television System for licences to operate English‑language religious television programming undertakings in Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 146 The new station in Calgary would operate on Channel 32, with an effective radiated power of 75,000 watts, non‑directional antenna, antenna height of 206 metres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 147 The new station in Edmonton would operate on Channel 45, with an average effective radiated power of 34,000 watts, maximum effective radiated power of 71,000 watts, antenna height of 176 metres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 148 Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Richard Gray, who will introduce his colleagues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 149 You have 30 minutes to make your presentation, Mr. Gray.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 150 MR. GRAY: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 151 Good morning, Chair Arpin and Commissioners.
LISTNUM 1 \l 152 Crossroads Television System is one of the few independent services remaining in the landscape of merging television entities in Canada, and we thank you for this opportunity to present and discuss our plans to establish local, balanced, religious over‑the‑air television stations in Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 153 We want to apply to Calgary and Edmonton the experience we have gained in eight years of operations in Ontario as an over‑the‑air religious broadcaster. We believe that both Edmonton and Calgary warrant the establishment of local religious television stations, with local production initiatives that will reflect the respective identities of each of these communities, and build upon the CTS model which we believe has proven successful in meeting and advancing the religious broadcast policy established by the Commission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 154 At this time I would like to present our presentation panel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 155 On your right, and my left, at the far end of the table, is our Corporate Comptroller, Matt Hillier.
LISTNUM 1 \l 156 Next to Matt is the Chairman of our CTS Board of Directors, Fred Vanstone.
LISTNUM 1 \l 157 To my right is our Program Director, Rob Sheppard.
LISTNUM 1 \l 158 To Rob's right is native Albertan Drew Martin. Drew is well known to members of the Alberta independent production community, and will be our Regional Manager for CTS Alberta stations, if and when we are licensed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 159 Next to Drew is Richard Landau, Senior Executive Producer for Balanced Programming on CTS.
LISTNUM 1 \l 160 Richard has organized, chaired and participated in interfaith dialogue groups throughout North America, and he has authored the book "What the World Needs to Know about Interfaith Dialogue".
LISTNUM 1 \l 161 Richard joined CTS prior to our 1998 start‑up, providing leadership in the planning and development of our balanced program schedule.
LISTNUM 1 \l 162 We were gratified that when our first licence renewal was issued in August of 2004, the text of that renewal decision stated:
"In the Commission's view, Crossroads has provided its audience with a high degree of diversity in religious programming and has demonstrated considerable diligence in complying with the Guidelines of Balanced Programming as set out in the Religious Broadcasting Policy."
LISTNUM 1 \l 163 Next to Richard is Janine Maxwell, a member of our CTS Board of Directors. Janine was founder and president of Onyx Advertising in Toronto, and recently divested her advertising agency interest to devote her time and skills to the funding and care of orphan victims of AIDS in Africa.
LISTNUM 1 \l 164 Janine brings to us welcome expertise in marketing, including branding, and continues to provide valuable counsel for us in these areas.
LISTNUM 1 \l 165 Next to Janine is our Director of Sales and Marketing, Glenn Stewart.
LISTNUM 1 \l 166 In our second row, right behind me, and on my left, your right, is Reverend David Mainse, a member of our CTS Board of Directors. Reverend Mainse began his television ministry journey in 1962, with a 15‑minute weekly television program following the Saturday night late news in the Ottawa Valley town of Pembroke, Ontario.
LISTNUM 1 \l 167 In 1997 he launched the daily 100 Huntley Street program across Canada, a program which is still bringing hope and encouragement daily to thousands of Canadians.
LISTNUM 1 \l 168 Reverend Mainse was founding chairman of CTS when we began broadcasting in Ontario in 1998.
LISTNUM 1 \l 169 Next to Reverend Mainse is our Director of Engineering, David Storey.
LISTNUM 1 \l 170 As has been already announced, I am Richard Gray.
LISTNUM 1 \l 171 Before we begin our discussion, we would like you to view a brief, seven‑minute video presentation.
‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo
LISTNUM 1 \l 172 MR. GRAY: Chair Arpin and Members of the Commission panel, prior to submitting our applications to the Commission in July of 2005, we conducted a number of meetings with Alberta's independent production community, and in the year and a half since our applications were submitted, we subsequently have had private, one‑on‑one meetings with more than 50 of those Alberta producers and writers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 173 As a result of these very constructive and positive communications, under the leadership of Alberta station management, CTS intends to engage the independent production community to produce all of its local programming in each of the cities of Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 174 In an effort to assist Alberta producers in the development of unique Canadian faith and values programming, I am pleased to announce that, in addition to the $9.660 million, detail letter applications, that CTS will spend on local programming over the first term of the licences, we will be making available a first year Alberta Development Fund of $300,000, and an annual $30,000 ongoing Alberta Mentorship Program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 175 Alberta local programming expenditures will, therefore, total $10,170,000 over the first term of the licences.
LISTNUM 1 \l 176 We believe that this additional commitment to the Alberta production community will further enhance our program schedule and provide Alberta producers with the necessary funding to produce television you can believe in for Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 177 Chair Arpin and Commissioners, we welcome your questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 178 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Gray.
LISTNUM 1 \l 179 I would ask Commissioner Langford to initiate the questioning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 180 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 181 Welcome to Calgary, as I suppose you could welcome me to Calgary, since none of us is from Calgary. But it's great to be here. I hope we can have a little fun this morning and learn a little bit more about what you are planning for Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 182 I watched that film with some interest. I guess, if I hadn't read any of your stuff and I just had to sum you up on the basis of that film, I think you have great potential to be religious broadcasters, but you ought to include a little Christian content.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 183 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That might fill out your schedule for you a little.
LISTNUM 1 \l 184 I will have a couple of questions about those new or explained CTD developments that came at the end of your remarks, sir, but rather than throw ourselves out of operation, maybe I could stick with the planned approach I had, because I have kind of got that down at the end.
LISTNUM 1 \l 185 I want to talk about the market and how you define it and how big you think it is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 186 I want to talk a bit about your business plan ‑‑ revenues and expenses.
LISTNUM 1 \l 187 I want to talk, of course, about programming. Some of it I don't understand, and it's probably just my weak math skills or something, but I get some of the things confused as to hours of this and hours of that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 188 And I want to talk to you a bit about balanced programming. I noticed your overall commitment to adhere to the policy, which is comforting, but I am unclear about your definition of "balance" in some of the specific programs that you outlined in your supplementary brief.
LISTNUM 1 \l 189 Then I want to talk to you a bit about Canadian content development, or Canadian talent development, depending on which side of the last decision you are standing; and some of the new things you added today; and a breakdown of some of the bigger figures, such as the $4.8 million.
LISTNUM 1 \l 190 I think you will find it pretty straightforward. I hope you will. I don't think there are any trick questions, unless you have a guilty conscience, of course. But you guys are probably better at solving that problem than I am.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 191 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am going to quote from the last sentence on page 1 of your supplementary brief. I don't think you need to go to it, but there is nothing to stop you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 192 You say:
"Based on our discussions with these communities..."
‑‑ by which, I assume, you mean Calgary and Edmonton, obviously:
"...our unique brand of religious programming would be enthusiastically welcomed by these communities."
LISTNUM 1 \l 193 I note that you have an awful lot of supporters, so I am not approaching this question in a vacuum, but how do you come to that conclusion?
LISTNUM 1 \l 194 Did you do any market analysis? Did you collect any empirical data? Did you have any experts out there? I couldn't find any on the file, but there may be something that I missed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 195 Was there some market research done to come to that conclusion?
LISTNUM 1 \l 196 MR. GRAY: Not the type of market research that you would expect normally.
LISTNUM 1 \l 197 I have contacted the religious programmers that make up a good deal of the Christian part of our schedule, so they are there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 198 Alberta is a very major part of their donor basis, and, of course, religious programs depend upon a donor base of support for their airtime, and, as a fully commercial station, we depend on that airtime revenue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 199 Most of those that I have talked to, they have a very large number of supporters in Alberta, and specifically in the cities of Calgary and Edmonton, and they would welcome the opportunity to be able to broadcast on a religious station in these markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1100 So we know, just from evidence from all of our various clients, that there definitely is a marketplace for all of these various programs, and they would love to see more exposure of them in these areas.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1101 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So these programs are being watched now in Edmonton and Calgary, but not by conventional television?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1102 Is that the only change?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1103 MR. GRAY: To some degree they are being watched here. They are carried on CTS in Ontario, and therefore they are available, to some degree, on satellite ‑‑ DTH.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1104 But the fact is that, even before CTS existed, there were long‑term ministries, which have a base of many thousands of supporters in these areas. Therefore, they would like to see the programming that they are supporting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1105 From the religious program side, we do know ‑‑ and I do have letters from various major ministries ‑‑ that they would like to be purchasing time on CTS Alberta stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1106 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I don't want to sound irreverent in any way, but I am also looking at a business case here, so excuse some of the language.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1107 Are you saying that they see a market here, and a lot of churches and a lot of religious interest, so, from their experience, they assume that this is where their programs will be watched?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1108 Or, are you saying that they are being watched ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1109 I thought your first statement was that some of the people you buy your block programming from are getting good reaction to their programming already from this area. If they are, how are these people getting this programming? And, if they are getting it, why do they need it twice?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1110 Is that a fair question?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1111 MR. GRAY: What I was saying is that these people purchase airtime now on CTS, and they have expressed to me, "When can we buy time in Alberta, because we want to buy time on your stations in Alberta."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1112 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So you are relying on their interest in expanding the market, if I can put it that way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1113 I don't know how else to put it ‑‑ expanding their viewer base.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1114 That's really what you are relying on. You are relying on their expertise.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1115 They, somehow, have looked at this market and said: We are not there now, but it's a good place to be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1116 MR. GRAY: That is part of our income. That is from the religious block side.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1117 We also have over 1,100 letters of support, which, of course, you are aware of.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1118 I would like to ask Glenn Stewart, our Director of Marketing for the commercial side, to speak to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1119 MR. STEWART: Commissioner Langford, it is a two‑pronged process.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1120 I think what I would like you to understand from the outset is that we are really here before you today because we are mandate driven.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1121 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I'm sorry, what was that word? What drives you?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1122 MR. STEWART: Mandate. We are mandate driven.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1123 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1124 MR. STEWART: Insofar as we believe that to bring the Ontario experience to Alberta and be able to offer Albertans locally produced religious programming is the centrepoint to our application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1125 It is very true that we have a goodly number of block programmers who desire to expand and put programming into Alberta on our stations, if we are licensed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1126 Beyond that, there is, of course, also a commercial component to our application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1127 It is our conjecture that the markets are certainly strong and can support a station like CTS in both Edmonton and Calgary, given the fact that, due to the nature of our service, our commercial component is only a very small portion of what we are trying to do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1128 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: With the possible exception of the representatives from CHUM, I don't think you would get much objection from this particular crowd that the market is strong, but it doesn't necessarily follow that it will be strong for you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1129 Here are the folks from OMNI Television, who will be making an application somewhat later, probably tomorrow or this afternoon, about ethnic television ‑‑ third language programming. If they were going to pitch all of their programming at Mandarin speakers, and there were only 1,100 Mandarin speakers in Calgary and Edmonton, they would have their work cut out, I would suggest, trying to make a business case for that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1130 It would make 1,100 people very happy, and we are, to a certain extent, at the CRTC, in the happiness business. There is no doubt about it. But we just don't know how long they could put bread on the table with 1,100 subscribers, and trying to attract advertising.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1131 They are a little luckier than you, I suppose. They have some demographic studies, as does their competitor, showing who speaks what languages at home, and mother tongue and whatnot.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1132 Anyway, I don't want to drag the analogy out to the point where it takes over the point, but do you have anything like that which will enable me, then, to look at your business case and say, "That makes sense"?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1133 Okay, you have 1,100 letters, and you have some ministry, and you have some people who make programs who would like to expand their market, but, to them, that could be just economies of scale. They are already making the programs, so anything they sell here is a little more cream in their coffee.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1134 I am sorry to go on so long, but do you have any empirical data here or market research, or is it just a good feeling you have about this place?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1135 MR. GRAY: Chair ‑‑ or Commissioner ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1136 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I like the Chairman part. Go with it.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1137 MR. GRAY: Your turn may come, I don't know.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1138 The latest Statistics Canada figures show that, for those who declare a religion, Christianity is 91 percent in Calgary, 92 percent in Edmonton, and 94 percent in Alberta as a whole, compared with the Greater Toronto Area at 81, and 88 percent in Ontario.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1139 So even as successful as we are in Ontario ‑‑ and we are successful in Ontario ‑‑ there are a greater number of people who declare a religious affiliation ‑‑ a religious faith.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1140 I would like to ask Janine Maxwell, from our Board of Directors, to address this question, as well as Drew.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1141 Drew is from Alberta and has been very much involved with me in meetings with the independent producers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1142 MR. MARTIN: I was born and raised in Alberta, and I have been involved as Vice‑President of AMPIA.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1143 We spent a lot of time visiting with independent producers, as well as members of the Board of Directors for AMPIA, and the Broadcast Committee, as well as members who are writers, directors, service providers and facility providers in the province, and one of the things that is really clear is that, foundational to this province and its success, are family values.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1144 In fact, I was in Alan Brooks' office the other day at AMPIA, and when he introduced me to the new Director of Marketing for Alberta Films, he said, "This is Drew, and he's family."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1145 That is really the environment of the industry here. It is very unique.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1146 The people here have had tons of opportunity to leave this province, but they stay here to work because of their passion for really having their families raised with a strong sense of community and because of the values that exist here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1147 These are the people that we talked with ‑‑ probably over 85 different representatives, who do business here all the time, who actually have a passionate commitment to the same values that we share.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1148 We have the letters that have been supporting us, which I am sure you have read.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1149 Perhaps Janine could read one, as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1150 They all resonate with the same kind of heart that is akin to the CTS approach.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1151 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I have read the letters, and the passion is there, but there are 1,100 letters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1152 I am not suggesting that you have to go out and find enough letters to make your business plan work, but sometimes people do a market research study ‑‑ and I don't want to beat it to death. You don't have anything like that, but you have considerable experience, and I guess ‑‑ I will make your case for you ‑‑ you are willing to risk some money on this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1153 But the case on our side, in case you are wondering why, is, first of all, we like our broadcasters to succeed in Canada. That is something we like, because we like the notion of Canadian broadcasters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1154 And we like to use the scarce resources of the airwaves in the best way possible.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1155 And if you only have ‑‑ I know this is not a fact, but if you had 1,100 viewers, that would trouble us, because we wouldn't be able to see you being able to make a business case.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1156 We are also very much aware of how successful you have been in other places, and we are aware of the statistics from Statistics Canada that you quoted.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1157 I really wanted to know whether there was anything more empirical than that, any market research, done either by you or by your programmers, or by associations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1158 You do project, though ‑‑ to get back to the reality of your application ‑‑ on page 14 of your application you project a 2 percent share in Year 1, rising to 2.7 in Year 7.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1159 Again, you base that, I guess, on what you call the demonstrable pent‑up demand. But how do you project it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1160 How do you turn the enthusiasm of 1,100 people, some StatsCan statistics, which are really on people's deepest religious beliefs, whether they are practising those religions ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1161 I can open up any issue of Maclean's magazine ‑‑ or pick and choose any over the last five years, and they will say: Attendance at church is down.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1162 So maybe they are calling themselves Christian, but they are not practising at this particular moment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1163 How do you turn that into that kind of hard statistic?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1164 How do you turn what you are telling me here this morning, this kind of feeling that is out there, into exact figures, moving from 2 percent to 2.7 percent over seven years?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1165 How do you do that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1166 MR. STEWART: Commissioner Langford, while we didn't do an exhaustive research study ‑‑ being a small independent broadcaster, it just wasn't something we felt we ‑‑ I don't want to say needed to do. It would have been nice to have done it, but it is something that we chose not to do because we had all of the other empirical data and all of the other knowledge from the ministry broadcasters, from Reverend Mainse for 100 Huntley Street, in his example.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1167 I came to the 2 percent share of tuning, really, based on the Ontario model, the premise being that if we can achieve, roughly, a 2 percent share in Ontario, which is a mature, saturated marketplace, surely we can achieve that in burgeoning markets like Edmonton and Calgary, in a province that perhaps would be even more welcoming to a service like ours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1168 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Was the Ontario marketplace saturated with religious broadcasting when you got there?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1169 I would assume that the same people watching Playboy Television aren't riveted to the screens on Sunday morning to watch your show ‑‑ although you never know, guilt does funny things to people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1170 When you say a saturated market in Toronto, and a kind of wide open market here, what are you building those phrases on?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1171 MR. STEWART: In part on the number of stations, the number of major broadcasters in the marketplace.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1172 Eight years ago, when we debuted in Ontario, we didn't yet have a Toronto 1, for example, and we still managed to do quite well and meet our business objectives and our business plan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1173 And it's based on the very nature of our service. We have a little bit of commercial revenue, and we have our block revenue, and the balance between the two coexists in a way that we can fulfil our objectives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1174 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But there is a station in Lethbridge right now. It is, obviously, not going to just go away if you come here, and they are being carried in much of the same area that you want to be carried in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1175 They may not have exactly the same carriage rights that you have, but they have a certain market and they have some followers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1176 It is my experience ‑‑ and we will hear from some cable people later, and we can ask them, but it is my experience that broadcasting distribution undertakings are very loath to take stuff off that's popular.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1177 Did that have an impact, the existence of the incumbent operator? Did that have an impact on your projection of a 2 percent market share in Year 1, rising to 2.7?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1178 MR. STEWART: From a commercial perspective, it is not a factor, because they are non‑commercial. They don't solicit ‑‑ or they don't sell advertising.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1179 So that part of the equation is not in the mix.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1180 Perhaps I could ask Mr. Gray to speak further to that point.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1181 MR. GRAY: We don't have a lot of figures from the ministries, but Day of Discovery, which is a well known, long‑time television ministry, gave me a letter stating that they have 19,000 interested viewers in Edmonton, and 18,000 in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1182 Their database showed that's how many viewers they have who are interested in Crossroads Television carrying their program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1183 From the base of support, we know that Crossroads, for example, has many thousands of supporters in Alberta, and other ministries as well. They are a little bit reticent, I suppose, to tell you how many thousands they have, but that's just a sampling.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1184 So we know that there is a great interest in this kind of programming by a large number of people, not just a small ‑‑ the 1,100 who wrote the letters, that's for sure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1185 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What was the name of that ministry again, or that program?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1186 MR. GRAY: It's called Day of Discovery ‑‑ radio Bible class ministries out of Grand Rapids, Michigan. They do half‑hour weekly programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1187 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So they have 18,000 in one city, and 19,000 in another, which they have in their database?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1188 MR. GRAY: Yes, that's right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1189 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Where are these people watching this show now?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1190 Where are they getting it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1191 What's their source?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1192 What's the connection between the programmer and the natives of Alberta? What's the connection?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1193 MR. GRAY: How do they already know about the program?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1194 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Yes, and why do they need you if they are already getting it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1195 Don't feel bad, it's just ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1196 MR. GRAY: They may be aware that, on average, 25 percent of Canadians have DTH; therefore, 25 percent ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1197 I am not sure what the number is in this area, but they would have the ability to see it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1198 Of course, the other example is that we offer prime time for Christian ministries, and other programs that are non‑Christian, that simply isn't available on normal conventional television.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1199 So I think that the fact that our program schedule is ‑‑ that we have a different reason for being, that reason being family values and faith programming, we do programming within prime time which just doesn't happen on other stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1200 So they may well be on a local station on Sunday morning, but they are not there in prime time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1201 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am still unsure, but I am not investing the money either, so I don't have to be as worried about it perhaps as you do, and you don't look worried at all. So we will leave that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1202 Let's go and have a little look at money. I want to look at some of the figures of revenues that you have projected.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1203 I am referring to the charts on pages 9 to 12 of your application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1204 You filed a lot of stuff in confidence. I don't want to get into that. You can make a slip and, before you know it, some confidential information has come out, and we respect your desire for confidentiality, so I am only wanting to look at the projected figures that you have put in the application which is on the public record.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1205 You talk there about national ad sales being projected at $770,000 in Year 1, rising to just over $1 million in Year 7.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1206 I would ask you to go back and help me with this. Somehow you have come to the basis that you will get 2 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1207 Let's just deal with Year 1, it will be easier.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1208 Then, from that 2 percent, I guess you have done some sort of formula to say: With a 2 percent market share, our ads will sell at so much, so we will get $770,000 in national sales.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1209 Can you put that together for me in some sort of narrative form?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1210 How do you work that number out?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1211 MR. STEWART: Commissioner Langford, I arrived at these figures, basically, taking our Ontario experience in Year 1 through Year 8, to get my seven‑year plan coming forward.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1212 I basically took our Ontario experience and did the pro‑rations to the Edmonton and Calgary markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1213 I researched the cost per point in the markets ‑‑ this is going back 20 months now, so they may be a tad bit higher at this point, as my colleagues at the other stations have indicated.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1214 This is a costing that is achievable and realistic, and it will serve our business plan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1215 I would like to assure you that they are realistic, perhaps a little conservative now, in terms of it being two years later. Both Calgary and Edmonton are stronger markets today than they were when I started these projections.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1216 In fact, if I think back to the Commission's decision when CHUM was denied their applications prior to buying out the Craig stations, the Commission itself said that the economic indicators were that the markets were turning and coming back, and that they would be stronger, but perhaps just not strong enough at that point in time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1217 Two years later, I would respectfully submit that they have arrived and the markets are that strong today.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1218 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But that doesn't necessarily mean they are going to come to you, and I think that is a point that you must consider. You have to have a business side of your head here, as well as a programming side and an overall mission side.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1219 I guess what I am looking at is, tell me about Ontario. Tell me something that helps me take ‑‑ and I am going back to my first point. We have no empirical data, but we have come to a notion, based on somebody's databank in Michigan, or wherever it was, who may not even have a show up here. Or, if he does, he only has it on DTH. We have moved that figure to a 2 percent market share, and based on that 2 percent market share, we have moved to $770,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1220 Tell me what is happening in Ontario. Tell me how this makes sense, how this progression works.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1221 MR. STEWART: Commissioner, in Ontario, as I stated earlier, in a very mature market, a crowded marketplace, CTS was able to garner a share of the advertising dollar, for a number of reasons, one of which, and not the least of which, is that there is a hunger for values and family programming that isn't readily available.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1222 Some may call our programming old, but it is ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1223 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Some may call it what? Sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1224 MR. STEWART: Some may call it old programming, as opposed to current ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1225 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The Fonz, old?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1226 Surely you jest!
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1227 MR. STEWART: The Fonz will be timeless.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1228 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I hope so, for you. The hair is a little weird, but, anyway, fair enough.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1229 MR. STEWART: But the fact remains, from an entertainment value and entertainment standpoint, our programming is very safe, very family friendly. That is part of what we will bring to this province, and these cities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1230 And there is a market for that. Advertisers are quite comfortable seeking out that kind of programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1231 It doesn't deliver big ratings, but they will buy it nonetheless.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1232 In fact, you will rarely find a media buyer putting through a plan that says: Don't buy Happy Days. Don't buy Little House on the Prairie. Don't buy Seventh Heaven.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1233 But you will find a lot of media buyers coming down and saying: Don't buy Montel. Don't by this show or that show.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1234 It's an everyday occurrence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1235 I would submit that the nature of our entertainment programming, which complements our ministry programming, has a comfortable fit for the advertising community, and we don't represent big dollars to their buys. We are often an add‑on or a top‑up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1236 I used to go around in the early days and joke with the media buyers that, if you get one preemption from the big guys, that would fund a campaign on CTS for the week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1237 It is in that context that we know we can get a certain degree of business, and while we don't have any advertising agencies intervening on our behalf, as others do, the fact is, they indicate that the market has a need for another television station, and more commercial inventory is much needed in this market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1238 They are both markets where demand outstrips supply, and CTS, in that context, will fit in quite nicely, and won't disrupt the existing broadcasters, because we are not talking about the kind of money or the kind of rating points that will disrupt the marketplace.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1239 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I don't want to be pejorative, but it sounds a little fuzzy to me. I hope it works, but I don't see a nexus between numbers and dollars here. I can't see this as a business plan. It seems to me to be a notion that a lot of people will like this, and then advertisers will say, "Okay, there are enough people."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1240 Surely there is a connection between the number of eyeballs ‑‑ they used to call them "bums in the seats" ‑‑ and when Ford Motor Company thinks, "Gee, let's see what they think of our new pickup truck," or something like that. "Let's put a little bit of money on that channel."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1241 Let's go back to the OMNI example. If there is nobody in town who speaks Mandarin, and they are putting up Mandarin, chances are good, I would think, that the advertisers might just walk right by them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1242 You are a niche marketer, by your own admission. You have used the word "niche". I just don't ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1243 I don't want to beat this to death. If you don't have the numbers, you don't have the numbers. But, I must say, I find it difficult to trace. I find it hard to trace myself from the kind of no study to the 2 percent to the $770,000. I don't see the logical connections there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1244 If you do, then there is your answer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1245 I thought, maybe, you could tell me ‑‑ unless it is so confidential that you can't ‑‑ what your market share is in one of your other places, such as Ottawa, or something like that, and what kind of advertising you are getting there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1246 I don't want you to give away confidential information, but is there some way you can make a connection from some hard experience like that, which would lead me to believe that your business plan is on more sound footing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1247 I'm not saying that it is not on sound footing, but I can't find the sound foundation here. I have to go on a lot of assumptions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1248 MR. STEWART: Commissioner, I wasn't with CTS in the early‑early days of planning on the first round, some 10 years ago. I joined the company very soon thereafter. The original business plan ‑‑ really, what CTS is today, operationally, in terms of advertising revenue, is nothing compared to what it initially was going to be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1249 I can't speak to the degree of research that was done at that point in time, but it was, to some degree, faulty, and we created a different business approach very early on that relied, primarily, on national advertising, as opposed to a very large percentage of retail advertising, and very quickly gained acceptance in the advertising realm, if you will, and we did get the dollars coming our way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1250 They weren't at big rates, but it was certainly enough to fill our business plan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1251 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. Look, that's your answer, and you will have another kick at the can later.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1252 If you want to kick this around among yourselves ‑‑ if you have something more now, I will take it, obviously, but if, later on, in one of the later phases, you want to bring something else to my attention ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1253 We are not a court of law here, we don't all have our evidentiary rules.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1254 If you want to come back with something to clear up that point ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1255 MR. STEWART: I think that Mr. Gray would like to say something.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1256 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1257 MR. GRAY: To add to what Glenn was saying, the breakdown of our revenue is that approximately 55 percent of our total revenue is from the sale of religious block time, and just under 40 percent from total commercial revenues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1258 So the part that Glenn is talking about is Happy Days and Little House on the Prairie and Seventh Heaven.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1259 The block programming, which has been under my area, is the ministries; and, yes, they are concerned about the number of viewers, but they are concerned about the response they get ‑‑ the viewers writing in, calling in for the free books they are offering, or donating to them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1260 So they judge their success by the response they get. Obviously, the response has been good, and that is why they are all on our station in Ontario, and virtually all of them have said, "When are you going to be ‑‑ "
LISTNUM 1 \l 1261 They have already asked me, "When can we sign a contract for Alberta?"
LISTNUM 1 \l 1262 I said, "We have to get a licence first."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1263 So there is interest, because they see their support base wanting it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1264 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Are some of them selling to the Lethbridge station right now?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1265 MR. GRAY: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1266 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What will happen then? Will they go on both services, or will they switch to you and leave poor old Lethbridge out there with nothing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1267 MR. GRAY: That is something we don't know, but there is that possibility.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1268 My experience is that ministries like to have more than one exposure in a market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1269 That is just something that we don't know.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1270 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Do you have any in your Ontario experience that are on another service?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1271 MR. GRAY: Vision.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1272 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Some are on Vision?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1273 MR. GRAY: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1274 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And they are happy to be on both?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1275 MR. GRAY: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1276 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The block sales, you sort of touched on the idea that these people are kind of keen to sign up. Do you have some ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1277 I wonder how you come up with the figure of, Year 1, $1,130,000, going to Year 7, $1,540,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1278 Those are pretty exact figures. Have you had contract talks with these people?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1279 This isn't a trick question. It is not an offence to have contracts. I don't jump up and go, "Ah‑ha! Caught you, you bounder," but I would like to know how you get these figures so exact.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1280 Have you had discussions with them so that you know what they will pay, pretty well?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1281 MR. GRAY: We based it on our Ontario experience, and then pro‑rating it into the Alberta population base.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1282 Matt, our Comptroller, could speak to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1283 But, certainly, all of the people that I have spoken with ‑‑ and I have had contact with them over the last eight years ‑‑ there is interest by all of them in the Alberta market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1284 Matt, do you want to speak to that, first of all?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1285 Then, Drew has also been speaking with local ministries.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1286 MR. HILLIER: Commissioner, from our discussions with block time buyers, we found that Alberta would be, possibly, at 35 to 40 percent of the regional Ontario rate, and we have used the low end of that, the 35 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1287 Basically, it is over the first three years of our regional Ontario experience, as a regional broadcaster there. That is why you get the exactness.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1288 You can blame me for that. As an accountant, I tend to get down to the zeroes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1289 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I don't blame anybody, I like exactitude. It makes my life easier. It's the lack of exactitude on some of the other numbers that has me a bit concerned ‑‑ not concerned, but kind of a little lost.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1290 You are saying that, generally, they are looking at paying you for their time on the air somewhere in the neighbourhood of 35 to 45 percent of what they pay you in Ontario.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1291 Is that right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1292 MR. HILLIER: Thirty‑five to 40.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1293 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Forty percent. I'm sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1294 How does this work? They say to you, "Okay, we think you are going to get," let's say, "2 percent in Year 1," or something like that, and that is, in raw numbers, a lot less than 2 percent of Ontario, "So we are going to pay you 35 percent."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1295 Do you have a little meeting at the end of the year, where you say, "You were low. We got 4 percent. We would like more money"? Or, do you lock yourself into seven years and, therefore, those numbers are what they are, and there is no hope to change them or improve them?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1296 MR. GRAY: Commissioner, these are annual contracts that we negotiate with the program buyers, so we review them annually.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1297 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So, if it turned out to be a rosier situation, you would be perhaps suggesting that they might want to put a little more money on the table.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1298 MR. GRAY: We would have an easier time getting an increase from them, let's put it that way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1299 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. That's good to know.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1300 Canadian sales of programs, $130,000 in Year 1 in revenues, rising to $160,000 in Year 7, if I have those numbers correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1301 Where do you get those numbers?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1302 MR. HILLIER: Commissioner, those are based on the potential sales of our local programming to syndication opportunities, and possibly some co‑production revenue in some of our Christian programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1303 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So this isn't a duplication of what you are already selling in Ontario, this is calculated on the brand new programs you are going to make out here in Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1304 MR. HILLIER: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1305 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1306 Are there any other sources of revenue? Do you get donations or memberships, or anything like that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1307 MR. GRAY: No, we don't, Commissioner. We are a not for profit station, but we are fully commercial. We are not a charity, so our revenue is virtually all from the sale of airtime, and a bit of co‑production.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1308 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I see. What about shows that are made by your ‑‑ I don't know whether to call it a parent company or what.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1309 What is CCCI or CCSI, whichever it is ‑‑ I don't know, but there are a lot of "C's" in there ‑‑ that makes 100 Huntley Street, for example?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1310 Do you have a special arrangement with them?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1311 MR. GRAY: We always ask our Chairman to explain this one, because it is difficult to explain.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1312 MR. VANSTONE: Commissioner, CCCI is a charity, and it does have a Christian mission, and 100 Huntley Street is its flagship program. It produces that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1313 It was the founding impetus for CTS, but CTS is an independent organization. It was designed that way when Reverend Mainse first conceived it, so that each of the ministries would be on a common footing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1314 CCCI pays CTS for its airtime, the same way that another ministry would pay for its airtime.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1315 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Is the parent company CCCI?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1316 It's not really. I read through your corporate papers. It's a related company, in a sense.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1317 MR. VANSTONE: It's a related company, it's not a parent company.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1318 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's simplify this, if you don't mind.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1319 They make 100 Huntley Street. Then they buy time ‑‑ let's say that it's two years from now. They would be buying time on your Calgary and Edmonton stations, and they would pay CTS‑Calgary and Edmonton for that time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1320 Would they then solicit donations from people?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1321 "They" being 100 Huntley Street.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1322 MR. VANSTONE: 100 Huntley Street has a series of stations that it is carried on, not just CTS. Part of their mission is funded through donations, but that is quite independent of CTS, and doesn't form part of CTS's revenue base, other than the airtime purchased.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1323 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Is there a connection between the amount of donations or revenue ‑‑ I don't know what to call it ‑‑ revenue coming into 100 Huntley Street which would, then, impact on the price Huntley would pay for the time it buys on CTS's various stations?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1324 MR. VANSTONE: It is quite independent. CCCI's price for purchasing time for 100 Huntley Street on CTS is the same as another ministry's purchase price would be. There is no relationship between income generated and the purchase price of CTS airtime.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1325 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So you set the figure, and you hope you do better, and they hope they are happy with the figure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1326 MR. VANSTONE: We believe that we are a delivery mechanism for their program, which makes it successful for us to sell them airtime in the same manner we sell airtime to other ministries.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1327 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And you will be financing the start‑up costs, or CCSI?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1328 MR. VANSTONE: No, we will be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1329 CCCI ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1330 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: CCCI ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1331 MR. VANSTONE: Just to make it easy, they are all "C's".
LISTNUM 1 \l 1332 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay, that's good. The other one isn't, but anyway.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1333 Well, we have CRTC. We have our share of "C's".
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1334 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So you are putting out $5 million in financing for this venture, to get it started.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1335 MR. VANSTONE: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1336 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: How does that work? Is there an interest rate on that, or is it interest free?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1337 I see interest payments in your projected expenses.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1338 MR. VANSTONE: It is from people who believe in the mission that we have who provide funding. They are accorded an interest rate in the same way as a conventional broadcaster would accord shareholders a dividend rate.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1339 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So these are the trust holders that I read about?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1340 MR. VANSTONE: Yes, that's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1341 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Take me through that, if you don't mind. It's interesting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1342 You would track, I guess, donations from people, or some interest.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1343 Tell me when I get it wrong.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1344 How do you collect the $5 million to put out in the trust?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1345 MR. VANSTONE: We offer the certificates to people who are interested in seeing Christian television advance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1346 They are people who support the mission. They are people who have supported 100 Huntley Street over a period of time. They are people who have supported other ministries over a period of time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1347 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Say I am one of those people. Would I buy a unit of some sort of this trust?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1348 MR. VANSTONE: You would buy an investment certificate, yes, and it would accord you a rate of interest.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1349 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What kind of rate of interest?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1350 Am I allowed to ask that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1351 MR. VANSTONE: I believe that the current rate of interest is approximately 7 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1352 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's not bad.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1353 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am thinking of my RRSP.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1354 MR. VANSTONE: It's an excellent investment, because it combines both an interest rate and the foundational benefit of the mission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1355 I would recommend it to you, sir.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1356 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am thinking seriously about it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1357 THE CHAIRPERSON: You will have to check with the Commissioner of Ethics.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1358 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Good point.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1359 How could he be against God? I mean, he is the Commissioner of Ethics.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1360 You have put together a bunch of interested people, and you have the $5 million, and then that goes out to the start‑up costs. Why don't I see the interest rate dropping over the years?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1361 When I look at your chart, it seems to be going up, up, up. Wouldn't they be starting to pay some of this off, or is it an interest‑only mortgage?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1362 How does it work?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1363 MR. VANSTONE: We have separated the certificates ‑‑ internally, not externally ‑‑ between Calgary and Edmonton and the Ontario service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1364 The Ontario service is starting to pay down.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1365 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It's coming down now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1366 MR. VANSTONE: It has come through its maturity, and it is coming down.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1367 And we have a program to eliminate that. We have a program to eliminate the Alberta start‑up costs at the end of the first licence term.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1368 The nature of CTS, as non‑charity, non‑profit, means that when the resources have met the station's requirements, the excess will go back into programming. That becomes a critical point ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1369 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Right. That's pretty clear from your application, that any excess goes in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1370 Although, if I read it correctly, by Year 7 there is a million dollar overage on the revenue side, isn't there?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1371 I am going by memory now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1372 Why isn't that going straight back? Why doesn't it always come to zero?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1373 MR. VANSTONE: The fact is that there are requirements, from capital requirements to the repayment of the certificate holders, and we need to follow through on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1374 When there is no other obligation, it will find its way back into additional programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1375 We have made the local program commitments, and that has priority on the way through.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1376 Then, if you like, the excess through that period of time goes to meet the other needs, including the transition to digital.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1377 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So you are saving a little bit for a rainy day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1378 MR. VANSTONE: Yes, the amortization of the fixed assets will provide for the recovery of some of that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1379 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It is as difficult for a Commissioner to understand some of this stuff as it is for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1380 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: To put it in terms you might understand.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1381 MR. VANSTONE: The business plan is not quite the wing and the prayer that you offer it to be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1382 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: No, I can see that there is a sound foundation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1383 This is my last curiosity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1384 In reading about these trusts, I understand that some people, at the end of them, say, "Don't give me back the money. That's my contribution."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1385 That's the feeling I got.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1386 MR. VANSTONE: That has been true with respect to the ministry ‑‑ CCCI. CTS is not in the position to accept a donation. That is not part of our role.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1387 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I see. So, then, it is just between you and Revenue Canada how you work that out, further down the line ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1388 MR. VANSTONE: It would go back into programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1389 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Even at the CCCI level? It would go into programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1390 MR. VANSTONE: No. CTS is not in the position to give a receipt ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1391 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I know that, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1392 MR. VANSTONE: ‑‑ to anyone who has a certificate overage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1393 If they have a certificate that they want to provide to charity, they can give it to CCCI or they can give it to another charity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1394 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What happens with it then?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1395 MR. VANSTONE: It would become redeemed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1396 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It would be redeemed. I see.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1397 And that money would then go off for further work through related ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1398 MR. VANSTONE: Wherever it went.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1399 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1400 I want to ask one more question ‑‑ and I don't want to use up too much more of your time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1401 I think it's on page 10 of your application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1402 I believe that I had trouble there, on the expense side, finding out where your employee expenses are. Salaries, in other words.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1403 It just didn't jump out at me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1404 I assume that some of it is under "Sales", and some of it is under "Administration" and "General", but I had trouble trying to figure out what you had set aside for salaries, and how many employees you might have in this operation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1405 I didn't see anything like that here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1406 Maybe it's here, but I just didn't see it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1407 I apologize if it's my mistake.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1408 MR. HILLIER: Commissioner, it was probably hard to find because there are not that many additional employees.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1409 Most of our programming will be through the independent production community, so, as far as local office employees are concerned ‑‑ station manager, some administrative support, and some technical support. Three employees in each city.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1410 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Can you make me a list, before we are finished here in the next couple of days, of those three employees in each city, and approximately what you have set aside for salaries?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1411 MR. HILLIER: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1412 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1413 One of the things we have learned coming to Alberta is that everybody wants a piece of the market, and you can't blame them, but it's hard to pay people here. They all want to go off and be roughnecks up in Fort McMurray, or something like that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1414 Even Tim Hortons. If you own a Tim Hortons franchise, you had better be up 24 hours a day to pour your own coffee, because no one will work for you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1415 Maybe you could prepare a little list of the jobs and the salaries, to give me some idea of whether that looks like a logical business plan. I would be grateful if you could get that to us ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1416 Would later today or tomorrow morning be doable?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1417 MR. HILLIER: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1418 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It shouldn't be a long list.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1419 Let's turn to programming, and we will see if we can wrap this up. You have been very patient with me, and I don't want to hold you here all day, but I do have some questions about programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1420 Really, overall, I saw what you had on the television here, and I think you were featuring what is always our preoccupation with balance, and I take my hat off to you, you covered that one pretty well in that film, but I still don't understand something, which may tell you more about me than I would care to have known.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1421 I don't understand "family values" and "family friendly" as kind of a mission statement or a description of programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1422 I guess I just don't understand ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1423 All right, I understand about two little kids going around and talking to everybody and trying to figure out why they should talk to mom and dad, if I got that correctly up there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1424 And I understand that the Fonz is unlikely to offend anyone, except by his hair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1425 But I don't understand what you are selling. Is it safety? Is that what you are saying? There will be no pornography, no obscenities, only good messages?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1426 What does this mean?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1427 MR. GRAY: I would like Reverend David Mainse to comment, but in a brief nutshell, you are right, the kind of programming is programming with the ethical and moral values that would parallel the ministry type of programming that is on the station from various faiths. Whether it is Jewish, Buddhist or Christian, there are ethical and moral values, and we want programming that will not offend those values.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1428 David, I think you will have some things that you would like to say.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1429 REV. MAINSE: Thank you, Commissioner.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1430 Back in 1975, I launched a study into violence in children's television. We got a LIP grant, if any of you are old enough to remember that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1431 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Was that the Judy LaMarsh stuff in Ontario?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1432 REV. MAINSE: No, it was federal. The LIP grant was federal. It was a Pierre Trudeau idea.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1433 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Was it LaMarsh who ran that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1434 REV. MAINSE: No, LaMarsh had a commission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1435 In fact, she said that if she had read our ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1436 It was parallel to ours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1437 She said that if she had read our study in advance, it could have saved the people of Ontario a lot of money in her commission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1438 The commission was very valuable. I want to assure you that I believe that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1439 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Send your donations in. You may be living on them soon.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1440 REV. MAINSE: Let me go back to your statement about considering an investment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1441 A former co‑chair of the CRTC, Rhéal Therien, in fact, was a supporter of our ministry for a number of years ‑‑ the late Rhéal Therien.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1442 Anyhow, he was the one that brought me to appear before his committee on serving the underserved areas of Canada. Out of that came the invitation from the Commission to begin the process of making an application for such a station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1443 We were the first ones to ever do that, before Vision was licensed and so on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1444 But back in 1975 we did this study. The Hon. Jeanne Sauvé was Minister of Communications at the time. We presented the study to her, and a petition with over 50,000 names.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1445 When she became Governor General, as we all know, the late Right Hon. Jeanne Sauvé suffered with cancer, and passed away ‑‑ an untimely death for a marvellous woman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1446 I was serving as a judge in the International Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion. We had offered the prize to the Chief Rabbi of Great Britain and the Commonwealth for his work with the Refusniks and on medical ethics.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1447 He came to the Convocation Hall in Toronto for his acceptance, and Jeanne Sauvé was our special speaker.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1448 We were together in the Green Room at Convocation Hall before going onto the platform, and she said, "David, when I was Minister of Communications, you presented me with this study from McMaster University," headed up by perhaps the leading marketing research person in North America at the time, and she said, "I put away all kinds of studies and petitions and so on, but yours I could not take off my shelf."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1449 She already knew that she had cancer ‑‑ and this is a serious moment in a person's life.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1450 She said, "I want to tell you that I agonized over my inability as Minister of Communications to change that format," if you will, "of increasing violence year after year, impacting on our children."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1451 She looked at me very intently, and she said, "David, you can do it. You can provide an alternative. You can produce programming."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1452 We began to produce a program called Circle Square, which has morphed into the largest summer camping program in Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1453 We have done all kinds of ‑‑ CTV carries every week, and it has for years now, our Kingdom Adventure series, the TQ programs daily, as well as many other children's programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1454 I took Jeanne Sauvé's exhortation to produce an alternative, because she felt powerless to rid ‑‑ those 14,000 murders that children, by the time they get out of high school, have witnessed on television, and things like that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1455 That's what we are all about. We are about an alternative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1456 One of the reasons ‑‑ forgive me for taking so much time, but the reason we want to say it over the air, rather than, simply, as we have now, through Bell ExpressVu and StarChoice, covering other areas of Canada outside the primary CTS coverage area, is that, in Edmonton ‑‑ here is an actual marketing research figure, Mr. Commissioner, from Media Stats ‑‑ between Edmonton and Calgary, there are 283,000 people who do not have access to cable or satellite. That is the population of London, Ontario, or the population of Halifax.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1457 They don't have cable. They have not been able to afford it. They may be at the bottom of the scale, or the income level, or welfare people, who have a little, old, beat‑up TV with rabbit ears.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1458 We want these people to have the kind of programming that is uplifting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1459 That is why, for example, all five chiefs of the native bands in the Calgary area sent letters, which are in the file, urging us to have a television station with the kinds of values we represent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1460 I urge the Commission ‑‑ I am retired now, so I am just the old boy sitting in the back bench, but ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1461 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You must have been something else when you were going full tilt.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1462 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That is very eloquent, and I appreciate it. I do. And I understand where you are coming from.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1463 I want to look at a little bit of the possible dark side of this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1464 I am sorry to always be bringing up the other side, but you guys do a great job of beating the drum, you don't need me for that, so I have to go on the other side and ask, "Is there a problem?"
LISTNUM 1 \l 1465 I don't mean it in any way to be accusatory, I just know ‑‑ we all know that there can be a dark side to this family values thing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1466 "Family friendly", I don't think there is a dark side to that, unless you want to watch murder on TV, I suppose; but family values sometimes, particularly in our neighbouring nation to the south, are equated with some very, very strict conservative views, and some of these views can be very, very hurtful to certain aspects of that population.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1467 History is full of it. I don't have to give you a history lesson. Whether it is homosexually, or whether it is women sometimes, for goodness' sake ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1468 Maybe this latest fellow, Obama, will stop the oldest one of all. At least, if he gets that done, that won't be a bad day's work.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1469 But it's there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1470 And maybe they are not family value people. Maybe they hide behind that tag. I don't know how it works.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1471 What steps do you take to make sure that you don't tilt over the edge from the good side, which apparently Jeanne Sauvé was applauding and praying for, to the dark side, if I can put it that way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1472 What steps do you take to make sure that family values don't become exclusionary to a whole bunch of people?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1473 MR. GRAY: I would like Richard Landau, who heads up this programming area, to speak to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1474 MR. LANDAU: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1475 I have in my hand our Code of Ethics. It is a living document at CTS Television. We apply it on a daily basis.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1476 Everyone who produces programming at CTS and everyone who sells us programming is run through this before they are allowed on the air. That is why you will find the level of complaints minimal, because we make these kinds of points extremely clear right off the bat. We don't want to be purveyors of hatred.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1477 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's a good answer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1478 A couple of little, quick follow‑ups.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1479 How do you ensure it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1480 You make your own programs, or have them made for you, so there is no problem there. But you are selling time. How do you monitor what is on the air from these people from all the other place, which is pre‑packaged stuff?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1481 MR. LANDAU: To begin with, there are ministries which will never get onto CTS because we know they are trouble.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1482 I will not name them at this moment, but ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1483 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We don't need names. We are dealing with concepts here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1484 MR. LANDAU: That's fine.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1485 We know people that we can rely upon.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1486 There are other programs that require some pre‑screening, and we catch most of the problems before you will ever see them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1487 So there is some pre‑screening that takes place.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1488 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Is that the pre‑screening committee ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1489 MR. LANDAU: The Compliance Committee?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1490 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The Compliance and Pre‑screening Committee?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1491 Is that what we are talking about here?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1492 MR. LANDAU: No. The Compliance Committee's oversight is on balanced programming only.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1493 The problems tend to arise from broadcast ministries, but there have been some problems along the way that we have discussed with the Compliance Committee.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1494 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's take a simple one. We are bringing a church service on Sunday morning ‑‑ there's a novel idea ‑‑ and the preacher goes bananas. He just loses it up there in the pulpit, and he starts a rant, and it's not pleasant.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1495 What do you do?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1496 Do you have a button that you can push?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1497 MR. LANDAU: To begin with, none of it is live.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1498 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Nothing is live.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1499 MR. LANDAU: No.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1500 So we have a chance to pre‑screen, and there is the ‑‑ perhaps someone has gone off on us that we have never had a problem with before, that is conceivable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1501 We tend to pre‑screen anyone that we think might be a problem on a program or is new to us. We look at that very carefully.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1502 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: If one gets through, what do you do?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1503 Do you try to make it up some way?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1504 Do you put in some sort of disclaimer?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1505 Do you explain that this went on, or do you just keep your fingers crossed and hope nobody complains?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1506 MR. LANDAU: Oh, no, we don't keep our fingers crossed, we are proactive.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1507 If something gets through and we find the problem, we will find it before the audience very often, and we will correspond with the producer in question, or the broadcast ministry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1508 My colleague Rob Sheppard may have something to add on this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1509 MR. SHEPPARD: I just want to add that the process of screening ‑‑ everything that airs on CTS is pre‑screened, including commercials. We have even rejected commercials for content.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1510 It is a staff responsibility to pre‑screen everything that goes on CTS.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1511 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You have three people in Calgary and three people in Edmonton, and that group is going to have to pre‑screen all 168 hours?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1512 That's a lot of television.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1513 MR. GRAY: First of all, there aren't 168 hours of paid religious programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1514 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Of course, you are not going to pre‑screen your own, because you have already made it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1515 MR. GRAY: That's right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1516 And we trust the Fonz. He's been around for 20 years, so we don't think he is going to say something wrong.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1517 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: He is unlikely to do anything alarming now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1518 MR. GRAY: So that brings it down.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1519 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Although I notice that they brought Orville Redenbacher back from the dead to do more popcorn ads.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1520 So, you know, anything is possible out there.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1521 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Sorry. Let's come back to earth. What are we screening?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1522 You are screening only the block? Is that what you are saying ‑‑ and the church services?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1523 MR. GRAY: That's correct. Those are the kinds of programs we are screening.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1524 Primarily, they will be fed out of Burlington. That gets to be another issue with centralizing and master control.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1525 There will be staff to screen, so they will all be screened ‑‑ assuming that the same programs would be airing here as would be airing in Ontario, they will be screened by us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1526 So we won't have that problem.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1527 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's a nice segue. How many programs which are screened here will be exclusive to here ‑‑ to Alberta?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1528 You can do it in broad percentages, if you want.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1529 How many will be already being shown in Ontario, and you carry them out here, as well?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1530 MR. GRAY: I would say that the majority of the ministry programs will be the same ones that are shown in Ontario. The different programming here would be all of the locally produced ‑‑ Alberta programs produced in Alberta with the Alberta independent producers, with oversight from Alberta managers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1531 So the decisions will be made on content here, in Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1532 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am getting a little past Jade's schedule here, but I have a few more questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1533 I don't know how, but I will make it up to you some way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1534 I won't eat lunch. How about that?
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1535 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I have some questions on programming. There are a few things that I want to make clear.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1536 Are we all right, Mr. Chairman?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1537 THE CHAIRPERSON: You still have an hour.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1538 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I still have an hour?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1539 I won't take an hour.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1540 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Some of my colleagues have reminded me that we were supposed to take a break, so that's fine with me, and we will go into the actual programming after that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1541 Mr. Chairman, do you want to announce that officially?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1542 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's fine.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1543 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's take 15 minutes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1544 I like the Chairman's job. It's cool.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1545 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will take a 15‑minute break, and return at 11:10 a.m.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 10:55 a.m.
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 11:15 a.m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1546 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1547 Mr. Gray and Mr. Langford. Welcome back.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1548 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1549 When we left off, we were sort of stepping into the programming area. I have my usual problem of muddification, once you get more than three numbers on a piece of paper.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1550 First, I really want to take you through some kind of facts and numbers, to make sure I have them right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1551 I am referring now to page 21 of your application. On that page you give some hours of different things, and the first one is 11 hours of church services.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1552 First of all, is that right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1553 Does that mean what I think it means, that you are going to bring us to St. Michael's Church, or the equivalent, as we saw in the film, and we are going to see 11 hours each week of church services?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1554 MR. SHEPPARD: It is 11 hours of local church programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1555 That could be anything from a church service to a local preacher leading a discussion group on television, and local music programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1556 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I did read that wrong. It is me who put the word "service" in there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1557 I am trying to look for page 21. Excuse me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1558 MR. SHEPPARD: We used the words "local church access".
LISTNUM 1 \l 1559 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Ah! Good for you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1560 The word "local" ‑‑ because you are applying for two licences, I have to be a little more definite on it in my own mind.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1561 Will there be 11 of these hours which will be exclusive to Edmonton, and 11 exclusive to Calgary?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1562 Or, do you consider the whole piece of the Alberta pie as local?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1563 MR. SHEPPARD: It could be both. It could be 11 exclusive to Calgary and 11 exclusive to Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1564 Our experience in Ontario is that the local church plays an important role in our schedule. In fact, over our licence period, there have been 14 different churches in our licensed area that never accessed television prior to CTS.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1565 We have had some discussion here, in both Calgary in Edmonton, with local churches.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1566 Perhaps Drew Martin could speak to that point a bit further.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1567 MR. MARTIN: In addition to the churches ‑‑ there are a number of churches that currently either have broadcast equipment in their facilities and/or the technical capability and expertise to be able to produce the kind of programming that we are looking for.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1568 Also, we have had meetings with a number of para‑church organizations, which would include organizations like Break Forth, which is the largest ministerial equipping conference in North America, which takes place each year in Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1569 There are organizations like YC, which stands for "Youth Conference". Over 17,000 young people a year attend that conference. Those people are also very interested because there is a lot of music in that context.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1570 Organizations like Compassion Canada, as well as Voice of the Martyrs, Folks in the Family, Watchmen for the Nations, and the Wagner Institute, to name a few, are all ministry‑based organizations that would be interested in programming with us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1571 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So each of Calgary and Edmonton would get 11 hours. Some of the 11 hours might be broadcast in both cities?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1572 Is that accurate, just to get to the bottom line of what I am asking here?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1573 MR. SHEPPARD: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1574 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What do you mean when you say "local"?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1575 Generally ‑‑ I don't know that we have an actual definition of it cast in stone anywhere.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1576 Do we, Mr. Counsellor?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1577 MR. McCALLUM: In context.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1578 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: In context. Everything is in context. Marriage, life, criminal law, it's always in context. It's so difficult.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1579 What do you consider local versus regional?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1580 You used both terms in your application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1581 MR. SHEPPARD: In terms of local, our thought is, the local way a church will express itself ‑‑ express its faith.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1582 How they do that, whether they do that through a church service or through a music program or discussion, it is their own local way of expressing that Calgary or Edmonton church.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1583 Regionally, it may be an Alberta expression, how they express themselves as a province ‑‑ how they would do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1584 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: When you say 11 hours of local church access, it might actually be a church within Edmonton or a church within Calgary. It might actually be a discussion group among some ministers, or some people who are involved in these churches.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1585 MR. SHEPPARD: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1586 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I haven't even asked a question yet.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1587 MR. SHEPPARD: Sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1588 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's all right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1589 Will you lend me a million dollars?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1590 Do you stand by your last answer?
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1591 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What I am trying to figure out is, when you use the word "regional", you really mean the whole province.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1592 Is that what we are talking about here?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1593 MR. SHEPPARD: We mean Calgary and Edmonton, combined.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1594 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: This isn't a trick question, I am just trying to figure it out. There are no penalties for "yes" or "no" on this question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1595 When you say "local church services", it's not really 11 hours for each of Calgary and each of Edmonton, because there might be some duplication.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1596 MR. SHEPPARD: It may be, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1597 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: There are no punitive results from that answer, one way or the other, but I am trying to understand it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1598 You talk in your application, and again in your supplementary brief, about how you would give away some free time to churches and church groups, I guess because they simply can't pay for it. Would that come into this 11 hours? Is that where the free time is?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1599 MR. GRAY: I will get Richard Landau, from our balanced programming, to respond.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1600 MR. LANDAU: The free time we are speaking about ‑‑ let me make this clear ‑‑ is to other than Christian faith communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1601 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I see. That would be the Baha'is, or the Buddhists, or whomever.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1602 MR. LANDAU: The qualifying groups are Muslims, Buddhists ‑‑ yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1603 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Is there any restriction?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1604 Is any recognized religion okay?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1605 MR. LANDAU: According to our code, there are some restrictions. There are classifications. There is a numerical threshold, there is a permanency threshold.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1606 A faith has to demonstrate the ability to be able to solemnize weddings in the province, and it has to have a registered charitable status.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1607 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That leaves me out.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1608 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's go on to somewhere else where you use the word "local". I want to make sure I have it right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1609 I am referring to page 21 of your application, and I will read it right off the sheet this time:
"Fifteen hours a week to local balanced programming."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1610 What does "local" mean in that context?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1611 MR. LANDAU: Local balanced programming, if you look at the particular programs on the schedule, will be programming that originates here in the community that is specific to Calgary and specific to Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1612 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So "local" really means "local".
LISTNUM 1 \l 1613 MR. LANDAU: It does, indeed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1614 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So the 15 hours in Edmonton will be different from the 15 hours in Calgary?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1615 MR. LANDAU: Yes, they will be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1616 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's good to know.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1617 There are no more points for that, but at least I now understand it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1618 Well, maybe there are some points.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1619 Yeah, we will give you some points.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1620 MR. LANDAU: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1621 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: No problem.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1622 The four hours of children's programming ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1623 Again, most of these questions are just me trying to understand precisely what people are going to get in their living rooms.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1624 Are you going to make those shows yourself, or are those shows you may buy?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1625 MR. SHEPPARD: A combination.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1626 Actually, not a combination. It's programming that we would make, and programming that ministries would make, and they may buy the time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1627 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: They may buy the time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1628 Those little kids that we saw going around to different religions and figuring out a little lesson that my grandfather taught me with a strap, "You should talk to mom and dad" ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1629 I like the way they learned it a lot better than the way I learned it, but anyway...
LISTNUM 1 \l 1630 Would that be a children's program, those little excerpts that we saw?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1631 MR. SHEPPARD: No, that was not children's programming, that was the program Seventh Heaven.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1632 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Did we see any children's programming on there?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1633 MR. SHEPPARD: We did not have children's programming on our video.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1634 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So is it basically children's programming the way I understand children's programming ‑‑ cartoons and that sort of thing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1635 MR. SHEPPARD: It's not necessarily cartoons.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1636 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I'm not advocating cartoons, I am just trying to understand what they might see on their television when they turn it on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1637 MR. SHEPPARD: It may be ministry programming using puppets, puppet show‑type programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1638 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And when you say "children and youth", how old are the youth?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1639 How far up the chain does this go?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1640 MR. SHEPPARD: Teenagers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1641 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Right to 18, sort of thing, or more like 15?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1642 MR. SHEPPARD: Fifteen to 18, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1643 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Would that be that summer camp reality show that I saw described somewhere in your supplementary brief?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1644 Would that qualify as a children's ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1645 MR. SHEPPARD: Circle Square Summer would appeal to the age range of 12 to 18 years old.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1646 Another example of youth programming would be Christian Hit Countdown, which is a music video program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1647 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's the music one, right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1648 MR. SHEPPARD: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1649 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1650 There is one hour showcasing Calgary independent producers. I found that one on page 25 of the application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1651 I am not quite sure why you chose to isolate that one, since you talk so eloquently everywhere else about giving almost all of it to independent producers anyway.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1652 Is there some special aspect to this hour that makes it different from the rest of the independent production stuff you are going to be showing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1653 MR. SHEPPARD: It is a regional program. It would be open to all independent producers in Alberta. We would be acquiring this program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1654 MR. MARTIN: They are pre‑made programs. We are acquiring those programs for that particular slot.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1655 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So you are just saying, "Show us your best work, and maybe we will play it."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1656 MR. MARTIN: Yes, that's right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1657 It is a showcase of Alberta‑produced programming. It is already in the can.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1658 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I see. Will you be paying for it, or is it a prize having it on TV?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1659 MR. MARTIN: No, we will be paying a licence fee for them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1660 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's good to know, you intervenors out there. There's money coming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1661 I think my last one is the half‑hour showcasing Christian music, played three times a week ‑‑ so that is one and a half hours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1662 Is that what we were just talking about, the music showcase one?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1663 MR. SHEPPARD: That is a Christian music video program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1664 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The same one we talked about two minutes ago?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1665 MR. SHEPPARD: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1666 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. There is not a second one.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1667 Sometimes these questions are just trying to clear my head, which is a full‑time job sometimes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1668 Last on programming ‑‑ and this is, again, to try to understand some of your terms.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1669 Pages 5, 6 and 7 of your supplementary brief list a lot of programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1670 Let's start with page 5.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1671 I just want to make one thing clear here. About midway down page 5, in the third‑last paragraph, you say:
"In Calgary and Edmonton, CTS will develop a daily, locally produced program in prime time that deals with social issues, religion, politics, the arts and education."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1672 You say that it will be similar to the Michael Coren show in Ontario, but I guess you will develop a new Michael Coren.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1673 Imagine two of them! It would be wonderful. Clone him.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1674 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You have politics in here, and through many errors of history, including the French Revolution and other minor blips, we learned that sometimes politics and religion don't mix very well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1675 So how do you do this?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1676 You have your code there, so maybe you can help me with it, but how do you start to bring in politics, education, and things like that, and have a religious undertone as well?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1677 MR. LANDAU: This is balanced programming, and we take the term "balance" seriously.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1678 For example, with apologies to Albertans, we have people who come on from all different points of view, people like Sid Ryan in Ontario ‑‑ Ontarians know him to be from the far left ‑‑ and people from the right, like Sid Hoy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1679 We are quite careful about balancing who we bring on to speak in political terms.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1680 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So long as their name is Sid.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1681 MR. LANDAU: Claire, I'm sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1682 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I apologize.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1683 MR. LANDAU: Claire. My apologies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1684 To be very frank with you, in terms of making that kind of programming, we take the whole notion of balance seriously, so we bring people from across the spectrum. That is what we have done in Ontario.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1685 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: One at a time, as I saw Mr. Coren interviewing the agnostic on your little video that you had here?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1686 MR. LANDAU: Actually, that was a panel of four. If you look, there are people from all different persuasions there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1687 Sometimes it's one at a time, sometimes it's one‑on‑one. Often enough, we try to have a panel that is balanced.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1688 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I must have missed the establishing shot, I apologize. But I did see him interviewing the one young fellow there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1689 MR. LANDAU: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1690 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's get onto the term "balanced" ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1691 Once more, these people would all be bound by your Code of Ethics. They couldn't go too far to the right, they couldn't go too far to the left, unless there was another view on ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1692 MR. LANDAU: You can go far to the right and far to the left, just don't violate the code.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1693 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Just don't violate the code.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1694 MR. LANDAU: That's right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1695 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Don't hold anybody up to scorn ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1696 MR. LANDAU: Don't encourage international political violence, don't encourage violence against your fellow human being, don't target people for humiliation or for conversion.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1697 That's the area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1698 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You remember that now, Mr. Chairman.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1699 MR. LANDAU: It's on the record. You have our code.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1700 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's look at the word "balance", which is all over page 6. I am having trouble understanding precisely what you mean by it, and it may be that it has different meanings.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1701 We have Up Close and Personal characterized as a station‑produced balanced program.
"Such well known Calgarians as Preston Manning, Philip Currie, Jan Arden, Jerome Iginla, Ian Tyson and Terri Clark are among the guests we propose to feature in intimate, one‑hour interviews that probe each person's achievements, motivations and spiritual foundations."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1702 How do you get balance there? What do you mean by "balance" if you are doing one‑on‑ones?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1703 MR. LANDAU: As an executive producer responsible for a number of series that we have done in Ontario on this basis, you attempt to bring people in from a range of different faith perspectives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1704 Here in Alberta, we have already spoken with Dr. Steven Anglin, who I am sure most Albertans know, who would be the kind of guest we might have in Edmonton. He is, clearly, a representative of the Buddhist community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1705 In terms of trying to make balance, you try to choose guests who come from across the range, and their points of view have been informed by their faith; not necessarily from one particular faith.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1706 You are trying to get a deep insight into the person. That's what makes it balanced programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1707 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: How many of these would you make in a given year?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1708 How many of these shows?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1709 I know that you have repeats and replays, but how many original ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1710 What were they, hour sections or half‑hour sections?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1711 MR. LANDAU: Half‑hour.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1712 Twenty‑six in a ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1713 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: No, one hour. Sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1714 Intimate, one hours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1715 How many ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1716 MR. LANDAU: Twenty‑six hours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1717 Twenty‑six in Edmonton and 26 in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1718 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. Let's deal with Calgary, because we are here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1719 Do you define balance, then, over the whole 26 hours?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1720 Is that how you define it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1721 MR. LANDAU: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1722 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So it's not each show that is balanced, necessarily.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1723 MR. LANDAU: No.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1724 Clearly, if someone comes on and they are informed by one particular faith, it will be hard to get balance in that one program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1725 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: All right. There are six ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1726 We don't have to do each one in detail, but I have Up Close and Personal, which is the one we were just discussing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1727 MR. LANDAU: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1728 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The Spirit of Calgary and Wrap it Up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1729 Then, in Edmonton, I have In Depth, Faith West, and Degrees West.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1730 MR. LANDAU: 113 Degrees, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1731 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You're right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1732 MR. LANDAU: It's a meridian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1733 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It seems that some of them you might be able to do balanced per program, and some you have to do balanced overall.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1734 Could you take me through and tell me which ones ‑‑ you don't have to describe the whole show, but which ones fit which sort of approach to balance?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1735 MR. LANDAU: Let's be frank ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1736 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Maybe we could do it in an orderly way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1737 Do you have the list in front of you?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1738 MR. LANDAU: Yes, I do. I am looking at it right now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1739 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Maybe you could go down the list and tell me which ones ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1740 Do you have to take the whole 26, or in which ones will you get an inherent balance right in the hour?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1741 MR. LANDAU: Okay. Up Close and Personal will take all 26.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1742 The Spirit of Calgary, each program will consist of ‑‑ basically, it will be balance within the program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1743 Some weeks, because it is covering news, it will be more to one community than the other.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1744 For example, when the Pope passed away, people would have said that our programs for two or three weeks were very Catholic. We make it up by covering the Danish cartoons. Later on, the programs become very Islamic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1745 From program to program, the round table discussions will draw upon leaders from a range of faith communities, as we have done with Faith Journal, which is ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1746 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I'm sorry, you are going too fast for me, if I may interrupt.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1747 Are we still on the Spirit of Calgary?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1748 MR. LANDAU: We are, indeed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1749 That kind of program also can have a round table discussion, which will draw upon faith leaders from various different faith communities to discuss issues of the day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1750 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So you are more likely to find a balanced look in each one, but not necessarily ‑‑ as you say, if the Pope dies, it might skew to the Catholic side.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1751 MR. LANDAU: Some weeks it tilts more in one direction than others, but, generally speaking, we try to have a balance in each program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1752 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And Wrap it Up?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1753 MR. LANDAU: Wrap it Up is a daily talk show, like the Michael Coren‑type program that you saw, and we will attempt to have balance ‑‑ probably, over the course of a week, you will get a sense of complete balance. Not necessarily each program, but certainly over the course of a week ‑‑ and certainly over the course of the broadcast year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1754 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: In Depth?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1755 MR. LANDAU: In Depth is similar to Up Close and Personal. It's a different name for a program, and a different city.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1756 So, rather than repeat myself, I will say that my comments would repeat for that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1757 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1758 MR. LANDAU: Faith West is similar to the Spirit of Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1759 113 Degrees West, which is the longitude of Edmonton, is similar to Wrap it Up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1760 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What do you do when someone comes in and says, "I've never watched your show before. I just turned it on, and it's all Catholic, Catholic, Catholic."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1761 It just happened that the Pope died, but this person wasn't thinking of that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1762 How do you handle that sort of inquiry?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1763 MR. LANDAU: Frankly, that would be a first‑time experience for us. We have not had that in the eight years we have been making programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1764 If I had to deal with it right now, I would say, "You are right, and these are the circumstances under which we are operating. But if you watch us over the next week or two, or if you tune in further along in the program" ‑‑ because we try to balance each program ‑‑ "you will notice that we have a feature about Afghan women."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1765 We try to balance each program. I can tell you, as an executive producer, that it is quite a juggling act between the recognized world faiths, but we do it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1766 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: When I come down to the middle of page 7, where you list more ‑‑ regional programming this time ‑‑ that word "regional" ‑‑ I see Insight and Muslim Insight and Reflections on Buddhism.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1767 If it is all about Buddhism and it's all about Muslim, is it safe for me to assume that you have to watch all of the shows if you want to get a sense of balance?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1768 Because you call them balanced.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1769 Or, is there another way you achieve balance in these shows?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1770 MR. LANDAU: In these two particular communities ‑‑ I should explain why those two communities have been chosen.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1771 Census statistics ‑‑ we are due for new religious statistics in March, but the census 2001 statistics show that the largest non‑Christian minority in both communities is Islam, and second is Buddhism. That is why those, in particular, were singled out for regional production.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1772 My discussion with the Muslim producer who is going to make a program for me will be, "Listen, we need to show some balance in the program within itself, so be drawing from various strands within the community."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1773 It is not intended to be one particular point of view within that community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1774 If you know something about the Buddhist community, that is going to be difficult anyway. It doesn't break down as one amorphous group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1775 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So your definition ‑‑ and don't let me put words in your mouth, I am just trying to understand this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1776 In these programs, your definition would be: We want this to be a balanced ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1777 This is a show about Muslims ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1778 MR. LANDAU: Islam, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1779 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Islam ‑‑ and we want it to be balanced.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1780 MR. LANDAU: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1781 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: In that context.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1782 Obviously, we are not going to bring in Catholics, we are not going to bring in Anglicans, but in the context of a show about Islam, it will be a balanced show about Islam.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1783 MR. LANDAU: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1784 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Are you going to do that show‑to‑show, or do you have to tune in to the whole 26 of them to get the picture?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1785 MR. LANDAU: You would probably have to tune in for a few weeks, because depending upon the program ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1786 We have a program in Ontario called Muslim Chronicle, and one week we will have on a guest who is politically off to the left, and another week we will have someone whose real joy is dahwa, or Islamic teaching. They will draw that person another week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1787 Some weeks we will get someone who is involved in women's issues in the Muslim community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1788 We try to draw upon a range. We talk to the producers and say, "Give us a range of flavours."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1789 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Have you run into any problems where people have said, "No, you're too strong on the Shiites against the Soonies," or whatever?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1790 Or, in your experience in Ontario, has this approached worked?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1791 MR. LANDAU: Not in eight years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1792 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: No problems?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1793 MR. LANDAU: None.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1794 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So two things: either nobody is watching, or you are doing a good job.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1795 MR. LANDAU: We know the communities very well. I think we have earned their ‑‑ I don't think, I know we have earned their trust.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1796 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That was a joke.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1797 MR. LANDAU: I know.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1798 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You are allowed to laugh.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1799 You can secretly hate me, but you have to laugh for the record.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1800 I think I am fine on Christian Hit Countdown and Circle Summer Square.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1801 I think that I pretty well understand your approach to programming, your approach to the code, your approach to local versus regional, how you oversee things, your committee for doing that, and your people who are watching and pre‑screening ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1802 I do have one last specific question, and I am going by memory, so correct me if I am wrong.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1803 It seems to me that, in response to an interrogatory of sometime in September 2005, with regard to a committee, or a council, or an advisory group that might help you with your multi‑faith programming, you indicated that you would have a five‑person group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1804 Is there any reason why you would have five here and eight ‑‑ and, again, I am going by memory ‑‑ in Ontario?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1805 Why did you change?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1806 MR. LANDAU: The reason being, if you look at the census numbers in Ontario, the number of faith communities that are very closely bunched together in their numbers ‑‑ population ‑‑ the Sikh and Hindu and Jewish ‑‑ and the Muslim community has grown much more rapidly than the others ‑‑ are very close to each other in terms of numbers and size, so we felt that a broader group would give us a broader reflection.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1807 Also, we added members to represent London and Ottawa, as the Commission knows.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1808 So, here, we would start with five.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1809 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Is my recollection correct that you have two Catholics on this one?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1810 MR. LANDAU: Indeed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1811 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Why would that be, just out of curiosity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1812 MR. LANDAU: I thought you meant that in Ontario we have two Catholics.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1813 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Here you would have one?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1814 MR. LANDAU: One Catholic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1815 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Perhaps you could refresh my memory on the list of the five.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1816 MR. LANDAU: We have one Roman Catholic, two Christians, or Protestants as you might call them, one Muslim and one Buddhist. That is the five‑member committee.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1817 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: In Ontario, did you break it down as far as Evangelical Christians, or is that something that I read somewhere else?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1818 We do a lot of reading.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1819 MR. LANDAU: We do have on the committee one Evangelical Christian in Ontario.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1820 Two, actually.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1821 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Two, I thought, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1822 MR. LANDAU: Yes. Two right now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1823 One is on leave at the moment, so one active, and one will return in the spring.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1824 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Could one of the Protestants be an Evangelical representative?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1825 MR. LANDAU: Here?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1826 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1827 MR. LANDAU: Oh, certainly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1828 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am not pushing for it, I am just trying to understand it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1829 MR. LANDAU: We would not rule anybody out.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1830 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's good to know. We are all looking for future careers. That's excellent.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1831 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: How would you have one committee for Alberta?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1832 Where do they meet? How do they meet?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1833 How do you do that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1834 MR. LANDAU: The committee will probably alternate between Edmonton and Calgary. I haven't really worked out the mechanics of that, unless they want to meet in Red Deer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1835 I would assume that they would meet once in Edmonton and once in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1836 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The same committee.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1837 MR. LANDAU: Yes, it will be the same committee.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1838 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: File into the old Hummer and zip one way or the other.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1839 MR. LANDAU: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1840 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. That's the way you are supposed to answer these questions. Just give me a little ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1841 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am almost finished.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1842 We sent you an interrogatory on September 3rd with regard to a number of things, but one of them was the specific condition of not broadcasting less than 75 percent out of Category 4 through the day, and no less than 50 percent in the evening.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1843 Then, I think you replied on October 7th, and, as I recall, you said that you would accept a condition of licence with regard to the 75/50 split. So I assume that is still on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1844 MR. GRAY: Yes, that's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1845 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You then said, with regard to the second half:
"At no time in our history has CTS TV broadcast programs that, as a balanced religious broadcaster, would require contextualization, as outlined in Part 2(b) of your question, i.e., news magazine programs, and we do not anticipate broadcasting such programs in the future."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1846 But you do have, as we just discussed ‑‑ you do cross the line a little bit into the area of politics and news, and that sort of thing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1847 So why would you be adverse to accepting this, just to be careful?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1848 MR. GRAY: Commissioner, I believe there was a follow‑up letter to that where we said that we would accept that condition.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1849 I don't have it in front of me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1850 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I will have a peek. I have your follow‑up letter.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1851 Let me look at counsel, and if counsel nods ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1852 You will accept it. Is that the bottom line?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1853 MR. GRAY: Yes, we will.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1854 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That will save a lot of flipping noises in the microphone, won't it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1855 All right. We won't flip any more pages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1856 What are the challenges of this?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1857 There was no reluctance on your part to have this sort of agreement to these things, but does it impose a challenge in some way, in the sense of perhaps attracting markets, having a little more popular entertainment shows, and that sort of thing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1858 MR. GRAY: I think the context, as I was thinking about it at the time, was because of the programming of Rogers and "now TV" and the concept of where that evolved from.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1859 The fact that we hadn't scheduled that kind of programming, that was in our minds when we answered that; but as we reflected on it, we realized that there was really no reason not to accept that as a full condition.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1860 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It does seem pretty much in keeping with what you are doing, doesn't it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1861 MR. GRAY: It is, exactly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1862 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I think the Rogers people inherited much of what they purchased, and I am sure they will see the light sooner or later and follow your lead, as they say. But that is perhaps for another day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1863 When you define "religious", and expanding into values‑based programming, how do you make a decision that the Fonz is okay, but something else isn't?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1864 How do you do that? What is the process?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1865 His name isn't Fonz.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1866 He is with the show Happy Days or something, isn't he?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1867 That was so long ago, they had fins on Pontiacs back then.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1868 MR. SHEPPARD: We look at the entire series.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1869 If we use the Fonz as an example, this type of programming really reflects the ministry program ‑‑ the 75 percent of our schedule that is ministry teaching programming. It reflects it. It is almost the sermon illustration, if you will, in our programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1870 In the case of the Fonz, although he may do something bad in the series, throughout the series he learns a lesson, and it is a values‑based or a moral lesson that is learned.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1871 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It is almost the classical definition of the dulce and the utile in literature, to delight and to instruct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1872 Boy oh boy, we are getting back there, aren't we?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1873 It's not too often that we speak Latin up here, but once in a while we are forced to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1874 Thank you for that. There may be some further questions that come from staff or my colleagues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1875 I have one last thing that I want to clear up, and I will try to be brief, because it is just straight numbers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1876 I am not clear on your Canadian talent development.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1877 I read one line in an appendix somewhere which led me to believe that you are spending $4.83 million, evenly divided between Edmonton and Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1878 Then, this morning it seemed to me ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1879 By the way, what triggered a bit of uncertainty in our minds was that some of the intervenors seemed to take that and run with it, like they were getting big hunks of it, and I wasn't quite sure ‑‑ you know, are we talking about a million dollars for this and a million for that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1880 I wasn't quite sure that it dovetailed into the figure, because I didn't have a breakdown.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1881 Then, this morning, in your opening remarks, we heard at the end that, in addition to the $9,660,000, which I guess is the 4.8 from both places, although it is a little bit higher, you are going to put a first year $300,000 Alberta Development Fund together, and an annual $30,000, which would be about $270,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1882 Is that what that would be?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1883 Would it be 210?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1884 Boy, I'm glad my kids aren't listening.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1885 It's no wonder they always want me to do my taxes over again. I never get it right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1886 Okay. An annual $30,000, or $210,000 over seven years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1887 Where did this come from, and why should we take it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1888 Even though it's more, isn't it kind of a little unfair to come bouncing in here saying, "We have seen all of the other applications now, and we are popping a little more onto ours"?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1889 Help me through this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1890 MR. GRAY: It didn't quite happen that way, I assure you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1891 I had one‑on‑one meetings, and Drew helped me set these up because of his involvement in the Alberta production community with actors and producers and directors. As you meet with these people, you realize that there is a very vibrant community, but they all have mortgages to pay and groceries to buy, and if we want to use the independent production community as much as possible in producing all of our programming, we need to encourage them, and not be a burden on them, at the same time that we want them to develop program ideas and concepts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1892 So it seemed like a good idea, and certainly the producers all indicated that this was something they would like, as we got to know them more and more.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1893 It was really only in the last month or so that we came to the conclusion that this is something we need to be doing for the sake of the producers themselves.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1894 And these would be for programs that would be ‑‑ concepts that would be consistent with the kind of programming on CTS.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1895 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I gather that each city would get the same amount of money.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1896 Is that the way it would work?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1897 MR. GRAY: No, it is $300,000 overall in Alberta, and $30,000 for the annual mentorship fund.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1898 So this is the total in Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1899 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's leave those aside.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1900 That is $300,000 and $210,000. That was added this morning, or I first learned about it this morning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1901 Can you take me through the 4.83, or the half of 9.660?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1902 Just break it down into pieces and tell me where it is going, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1903 If it's in your application, I'm sorry, I missed it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1904 MR. GRAY: I will ask our numbers man to do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1905 MR. HILLIER: That represents the local Canadian expenditure on the Alberta production community, and it is for the total original hours that we would be producing for the station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1906 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: This is the money you are spending on programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1907 MR. HILLIER: That's correct. Our strategy is to use our local programming ‑‑ the independent production community to provide the local programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1908 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: This isn't above and beyond.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1909 In other words, some of this money may go to the very shows we were just talking about?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1910 MR. HILLIER: The independent production community will be used to produce our balanced programming, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1911 The "over and above" that you mentioned is the 300 and the 210.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1912 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Generally, in my sense, sitting up here and listening to people like yourselves, and reading applications like yours, when people talk about this, they talk about it as kind of an extra benefit.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1913 There are all sorts of words thrown around. "Benefits" when you buy talent development, when you get it for free ‑‑ if "applying" is looked upon as free ‑‑ but it's a benefit to the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1914 It is above and beyond what you would normally do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1915 Let me put it bluntly. You are a television station; you need television shows. That's your inventory. That's your product. That's what you sell, even though you don't, but I mean it in the sense of a standard television show.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1916 Do you think it is within your comprehension of a package that you are putting together as part of an application ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1917 Is the way you understand it that you can just take your normal inventory ‑‑ that you would have to have anyway, because if you didn't you wouldn't have a television show, you wouldn't have a service ‑‑ and count that as the Canadian development part of your application?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1918 MR. GRAY: The development is just $300,000, plus the mentorship for students.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1919 The $9.660 million was the Alberta part of program expenditures in our budget over seven years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1920 But, rather than building a studio and hiring staff and buying cameras, and all the rest of it, to produce all of these programs in‑house, we have met a great many independent producers. We have found production resources. The cameras, the studios, the production units are all here in Alberta, so we felt that it would be more wise to use the Alberta independent production community, under our leadership, to produce those programs ‑‑ the locally produced Alberta programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1921 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I suppose I have made a mistake here, and I apologize for it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1922 The 4.8 has nothing to do with CTD then, it is just what you budgeted to buy programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1923 MR. GRAY: That's right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1924 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. Thank you. I'm sorry, I just got it wrong. Somehow I misunderstood you. I thought you were putting that through as CTD.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1925 So your CTD then ‑‑ your commitment to expenditures above and beyond all other expenditures, simply for talent development, or whatever it is called these days ‑‑ they changed the initials somewhere along the line ‑‑ is $300,000 plus $210,000 ‑‑ $510,000 over the seven years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1926 Have I got that right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1927 MR. GRAY: I guess we are arguing over terminology, but we would call it a development fund.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1928 Again, it is not part of our program budget, it is in addition to what we would be paying independent producers to produce programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1929 This is the assistance, the encouragement, the help for them to develop the program concepts. This is not intended to be repaid or taken out of the program budget, this is in addition to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1930 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Where in your application, or in your supplementary brief, or in any of the letters that you wrote in reply to intervenors, or anywhere else, did you mention this $510,000?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1931 MR. GRAY: We did it in our response to the intervention by the Canadian Film and Television Production Association.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1932 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Maybe someone could help me find that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1933 Perhaps you could find it and read it to me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1934 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Is that the one dated January 26, 2007?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1935 MR. GRAY: Yes, it is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1936 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. I see it down at the bottom.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1937 I am going to make a suggestion here, Mr. Chairman, because this is really my last area of questioning. I know that my colleagues may have some.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1938 We are multi‑taskers here, and we have to scoot upstairs or downstairs ‑‑ I don't even know where I am in this hotel any more ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1939 Are we going up or down afterwards?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1940 THE CHAIRPERSON: Up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1941 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you, up ‑‑ to do a telephone conference meeting with our colleagues in Ottawa. I had hoped we could finish, but we may have to bring you back for five minutes or so afterwards, if you could stand that, and you would catch your lunch at the same time, I hope.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1942 I want to understand this. I want to understand what your commitment is ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1943 What your programming expenses are, one; and what your set‑aside or commitment for CTD ‑‑ Canadian talent development ‑‑ is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1944 I am sure that you can speak with your advisors or with your lawyer or your counsel, or whoever helps you, to ensure that we are all singing, as they say, from the same hymn book.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1945 I would really like to know what those figures are, and I would like to know where they first arose. Did they first arise in this reply? Did they first arise somewhere else?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1946 I just want to be clear on everything. So if you could take some time over lunch, so that we are not talking at cross purposes, if the Chairman agrees, that would be very beneficial to me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1947 And I do apologize for dragging you back here after lunch, and to the Chairman for upsetting his finely tuned schedule, but I am not clear in my mind about what this means, and this is a significant part of any application, and I would like to be clear.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1948 That is my final area of questions. My colleagues may have other questions, et cetera, so we may be here until midnight, and we will apologize at midnight as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1949 We turn into pumpkins then.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1950 Mr. Chairman, if you agree, I would ask you to give me another five minutes with this panel after lunch.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1951 Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1952 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Langford.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1953 We will adjourn for the meeting and for lunch, and we will reconvene at 1:05 p.m.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 12:00 p.m.
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1:10 p.m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1954 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1955 Commissioner Langford.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1956 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1957 I think what I am going to do is just ask you if you have more information for me, some clarification which will make my understanding of program expenses versus CTD a little more comprehensive.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1958 MR. GRAY: Thank you, Commissioner Langford.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1959 I will ask Fred Vanstone, our Chair, to respond.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1960 MR. VANSTONE: Commissioner, you talked earlier about definitions in context, and perhaps that's what we have here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1961 It appears that our discussion has led you to the wrong conclusion.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1962 The $9.6 million in expenditures that we are planning are expenditures to be made through the independent Alberta production community for our locally produced programming. It has not been our intention to have represented that in any other manner.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1963 The $210,000, the $30,000 per year, is an amount to be directed through the independent production community for the training of young producers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1964 The $300,000 represents moneys directed toward developing program proposals from the independent community. Not all proposals, obviously, will be accepted. We thought it right to provide some funding that we viewed akin to providing some funds for an advertising agency in a proposal stage, and we felt that the expenditure of those moneys would serve to jump‑start, if you like, or provide ideas and development faster, and allow us to come on the air with those commitments in a faster timeframe.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1965 Those dollar amounts, when amortized over the term of the licence, were not considered material.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1966 The information was provided at the intervention stage, and it is clear in looking at the other applications that the numbers have no bearing on positioning our application relative to any of them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1967 If we have misled you, we apologize. Perhaps this clarification will remove or lessen your concern about our business plan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1968 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1969 I want the record to show clearly, and I want you to understand, that there is no question in my mind at all of being misled or in any way of being fudged or fuzzified.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1970 I think that I read it incorrectly. I think the mistake is mine with regard to the 4.8, and I am grateful that you have clarified it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1971 I do have one question about ‑‑ can we just call it the $510,000, the $300,000 plus the 30 times 7?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1972 Was that first mentioned on January 26, 2007?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1973 Did that exist anywhere else on the record, other than that response?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1974 MR. VANSTONE: That was where it was first introduced.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1975 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I think that answers my question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1976 It will be up to the Commission, I want you to understand, to put what weight we think should go on it, in the sense that I believe ‑‑ I may be wrong on this, as well, but counsel will correct me if I am ‑‑ I believe the record was open at that point.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1977 In other words, if that was first put there, though for the most innocent of all reasons, it could be construed as having been put there in a kind of bid against someone else, because you were cognizant of all the other records.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1978 That is certainly not an accusation in any way, we just have to take absolute care that, as much as possible, we ensure equality for all in the application process.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1979 That doesn't necessarily mean that it will be put in the garbage can or refused or anything, but it will be given the weight that we can give it, as we approach it in the context of when it was first publicized, and what information you had at your disposal at that time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1980 I am sure the independent production people will be ever grateful to have extra money, no matter what it is labelled as in this process.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1981 That certainly completes my questions. My colleagues may have some, or the Chairman, but that completes my questions, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1982 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Langford.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1983 Regarding your last reply, we will surely not make a statement today. We will take that reply under advisement, and we will eventually make our final decision with respect to that specific item.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1984 I know that Commissioner Cram wants to ask you a few questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1985 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1986 I think it was you, Mr. Gray, who said that your block programmers ‑‑ that Alberta was a large part of their donor base.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1987 Was that the motivation for this application?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1988 MR. GRAY: I think the motivation was the reason that CTS ‑‑ Crossroads Television System ‑‑ existed in the first place, which was the desire to present ‑‑ and here we go again ‑‑ family values programming, ministry programming and faith values programming to have a positive television influence, which we did in Ontario, and which are doing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1989 And for a marketplace that can sustain new growth and new stations, we saw Alberta as the next logical place, along with the fact that ‑‑ how do you say it delicately ‑‑ it is a Bible belt area of the country. There are a great many people of Christian faith who like these programs and want them, and they are not available, to any great degree, on the conventional stations now in these two cities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1990 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Have they spoken about an interest in other parts of the country?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1991 MR. GRAY: I haven't talked to them about other parts, only about Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1992 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. So you went to them and said, "Are you interested in Alberta?"
LISTNUM 1 \l 1993 MR. GRAY: Yes. We told them, as we talked to the various clients, that we were applying for Alberta. "Are you interested?" Without exception, they were all interested.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1994 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I am fascinated; Statistics Canada still does the religious background on the census?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1995 I thought that ceased in 1996 or something.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1996 MR. GRAY: It is slow in coming, but they still do it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1997 Richard is more on top of that than I am, so perhaps, Richard, you could comment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1998 MR. LANDAU: If you wish, I could provide the URL to your counsel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1999 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I think we can probably get it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11000 It is along with the census, though, still?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11001 MR. LANDAU: Yes. "2001 Community Profiles", Statistics Canada census figures.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11002 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. We were getting into this circular argument about the fact that the Day of Discovery has donors, but they haven't seen the programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11003 Is it possible that some of these same major ministries also have radio programs that would be heard?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11004 MR. GRAY: Yes, that is true, they do, and they have been on literally hundreds of stations in the U.S., and probably dozens of Canadian radio stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11005 "Friend", which is a little daily devotional book, is a huge source of names for them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11006 So, yes, it is quite possible that they have subscribers in these two cities who have not seen a television program, but who have listened to the radio version, and they are on their mailing list.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11007 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Did you air the 100 Huntley Street where there was a complaint that went to us about an anti‑gay comment?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11008 MR. GRAY: We probably did. If you had a complaint ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 11009 We have aired every 100 Huntley Street program since we have been on the air.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11010 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I recollect that we made a decision on one, and I cannot remember, for the life of me, what it was about, but I know it was on 100 Huntley Street.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11011 MR. SHEPPARD: I don't recall ‑‑ the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council complained that ‑‑ it came back to us that it was a violation of our Code of Ethics.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11012 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you are a member of the CBSC?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11013 MR. SHEPPARD: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11014 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11015 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11016 Mr. Gray, you are applying for analog transmission in both Edmonton and Calgary. As you are surely aware, the U.S. is currently moving toward digital, and the cut‑off date has been scheduled for February 2009.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11017 Industry Canada has sought the opinion of the CRTC, as well, on the shutdown of analog transmission to take place at some point in time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11018 The Television Review Hearing raised some questions regarding that, and numerous intervenors suggested two years after the U.S. shutdown.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11019 Is there a given reason why you have chosen to go analog at this time, when everybody is thinking of moving toward digital ‑‑ HD?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11020 MR. GRAY: Yes, there is. As Reverend Mainse so eloquently said this morning, approximately 15 percent of the population of both cities does not have cable or satellite subscription; therefore, they depend on over‑the‑air television, and I don't think it is a long leap to suspect that most of those sets are still analog.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11021 So a population the size of the City of London, Ontario, or Halifax, approximately, would be without service, even if we were on digital and everyone on digital got it on basic service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11022 Our reason for being is to reach these very people, because they have spiritual needs. That is our main reason for doing that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11023 THE CHAIRPERSON: Let's say that the shutdown date is put at 2011, as has been suggested. How will your business plan be affected if you are granted a licence in 2007, and you are on the air sometime in 2008, and by 2011 you have to go to digital?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11024 How will your business plan be affected?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11025 MR. GRAY: I think that is a plan that will require Board approval, so I will defer to our Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11026 MR. VANSTONE: Mr. Chairman, we will adhere to the direction of the Commission and Industry Canada at the point in time that those instructions are given, and we will provide digital service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11027 We can provide digital feed to the cable systems through fibre optics, it is the over‑the‑air signal that we are proposing to leave in analog form.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11028 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, at the studio level, you will be planning to go digital at some point in time; so at the time you will be building, you will be building digital facilities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11029 MR. VANSTONE: We will be building in a manner that we can provide a digital signal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11030 THE CHAIRPERSON: Have you figured out the cost that will be incurred in moving from analog to digital?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11031 Is that something you have started to look at?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11032 MR. VANSTONE: Yes, we have considered it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11033 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you share some of your results with us?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11034 MR. VANSTONE: The Ontario station is preparing to go digital for a shorter time period, next year I believe. We believe that there will be a cost of somewhere between $400,000 and $500,000 per location.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11035 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are your applications severable? Could we only grant you Edmonton or Calgary, or would you absolutely need to have the two?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11036 MR. VANSTONE: Mr. Chairman, obviously, we would believe that it is stronger for both locations. We believe that both locations warrant the kind of service. It is alternate service to what they now receive.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11037 We would prefer if it were looked at in the context of both cities, but if, in the Commission's judgment, it were to award one or the other, we would adhere to that decision and provide the programming that we have included in our application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11038 THE CHAIRPERSON: What would be the impact on your business plan if the Commission were to grant you a licence and also allow The Miracle Channel to expand into the markets of Calgary and Edmonton?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11039 MR. VANSTONE: Mr. Chairman, The Miracle Channel does not propose commercial advertising, so we don't see any particular effect there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11040 The only possible concern we see is a potential negative competitive impact on Canadian paid religious broadcast rates.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11041 It's hard to know whether that would take place or whether it wouldn't. If that became a reality, it would serve to negatively impact our revenue stream.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11042 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cram alluded to my next question. Over and above The Miracle Channel, there are a good number of religious radio stations operating in Alberta, and they are also soliciting donations and selling ads.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11043 Do you think there are enough advertising dollars to sustain all of these players, including yourself?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11044 MR. STEWART: Mr. Chairman, we won't impact the radio stations, because it is not our intention to sell a great deal of local advertising.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11045 In our figures filed, we are proposing that we will probably do a 95/5 split, so the amount of money ‑‑ and it is, literally, $40,000 or $50,000 a year in local ‑‑ we don't envision coming from any advertisers who are currently advertising on religious radio stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11046 If there is some cross‑over, we believe it will be incremental revenue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11047 THE CHAIRPERSON: At the national level, what kind of advertisers ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 11048 Well, they are already on the air on your Ontario stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11049 What type of advertisers do you have?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11050 MR. STEWART: We have all of the major ‑‑ not all of the majors, we have a good number of the majors, Procter & Gamble, and so on and so forth.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11051 The curious thing about our experience in Ontario, because it is a mature market, we don't have every advertiser on air in Ontario. We are a long ways from that ‑‑ and still achieve our objectives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11052 What will be interesting as we go forward, if licensed, is to see how many advertisers will buy us in Alberta, in Calgary and Edmonton, but still won't buy us in Ontario; the distinction being that this is an underserved marketplace, in terms of supply and demand, and Ontario is a very mature market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11053 We are not a "must buy", by any sense of the word, in Ontario. I believe we will fare better in Alberta, based partly on supply and demand issues, and partly on the nature of our service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11054 THE CHAIRPERSON: This will be my last question, and it is, more or less, a question of curiosity, and I have already put this question to some religious radio applicants.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11055 I notice that you always consider Roman Catholics as being different from other Christian groups. Is it because you believe that Roman Catholics are not Christians?
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 11056 THE CHAIRPERSON: I was told, from the very first day I went to school, that I was a Christian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11057 MR. GRAY: We had better have our pastor/leader/founder answer that question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11058 REV. MAINSE: By no means. There are Christians in every group and there are people in every group who go through the motions that are not Christians.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11059 For almost 20 years I had with me, every day on the air ‑‑ or almost every day ‑‑ on 100 Huntley Street, Father Bob MacDougall.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11060 Cardinal Carter, the late Archbishop of Toronto, had me preach a mission for the Roman Catholics in Varsity Stadium. He was a very open man.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11061 I always maintain that Jesus gave three categories: hot, cold and Luke.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 11062 REV. MAINSE: There are the hot kind in every group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11063 You understand what I mean.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11064 The hot kind will want to communicate the message which they love with such passion. They would consider it the most selfish thing if they kept it to themselves.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11065 That's why we work together with those who are Christian, regardless of what the name might be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11066 Here in Calgary, Bishop Fred Henry is a good friend of mine, and he has been on 100 Huntley Street a number of times.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11067 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is the best answer I ever got. Thank you, Reverend Mainse.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11068 Now I will ask our legal counsel if he has questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11069 MR. McCALLUM: Very briefly, Mr. Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11070 In your application you said that you were hoping to generate some revenues from incumbent stations and some U.S. border stations. Could you elaborate on what you were hoping to get from U.S. border stations?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11071 MR. STEWART: We anticipate not affecting any of the existing stations to any degree that is significant.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11072 I believe that if we take away money from any stations, it will be American first, and then it will go through the pecking order.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11073 But we are realistic with our expectations, and we are not going to take any money away from CTV or CanWest or even the City TV stations. We won't be trading at the same cost per point; not because we don't want to, and not because we don't think we are of equal value, but the truth is, media buyers will not give us that same value.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11074 So we don't need to diminish the value in the marketplace whatsoever. That is our reality in Ontario. It is the planned reality going forward in Alberta, but believe me when I say that we try to get market value all the time. That's my job.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11075 MR. McCALLUM: But you would be targeting Spokane stations?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11076 That would be it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11077 MR. STEWART: We wouldn't be targeting anybody specifically. That is where I expect ‑‑ if we had any negative impact on anybody, it would be Spokane first.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11078 MR. McCALLUM: What do you think in your schedule would attract advertisers from Spokane to place with you rather than to place with someone else?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11079 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry, it's not American advertisers, or Spokane advertisers, it is those agencies in Canada who are allowed to buy American spill stations on behalf of their clients.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11080 Some agencies won't allow that, others will. It is purely for efficiency matters, it is not a question of programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11081 MR. McCALLUM: Do you think you will repatriate some of that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11082 MR. STEWART: I believe we will, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11083 MR. McCALLUM: Do you have any clue how much that might likely be?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11084 MR. STEWART: I would like to say that it would be the lion's share, but that is not realistic either.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11085 The first plan of attack, of course, is to approach all of the clients who we do have in Ontario and find out what their needs are here, and then carry them forward.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11086 But, as I stated earlier, I expect almost the inverse of that, in that there will be advertisers that we will have on our Alberta stations that I still won't be able to get in Ontario, just because of the supply and demand factor.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11087 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11088 In responding to Commissioner Langford about national time sales, I think you said that you developed the projections based on the Ontario experience. Would that answer also apply to local time sales?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11089 MR. STEWART: Yes. In fact, if I take you back eight years to the original plan ‑‑ and, again, this was before I was there ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 11090 In fact, when I arrived, we had five or six retail reps. We weren't generating any revenue locally. They weren't earning a livable wage, and we very quickly changed our direction, which was to focus on national advertising and let these good folks go on and get jobs that would pay them some real money.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11091 The nature of our service is not one where we are going to drive large retail.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11092 If a local car dealer in either Calgary or Edmonton wanted to buy time on our stations, of course, we would be happy to sell it, and our local management will be equipped to be able to handle that. It is not our intention to hire reps to go out and sell a lot of local advertising.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11093 A lot of local money will be church related, for cause, not for profit related. If a group of car dealers wants to buy us because of the nature of our service, by all means. We won't turn it away, but we are not going to make it our job to go out and drive retail.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11094 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11095 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11096 Mr. Gray, if either yourself or any member of your team wishes, I will give you two minutes to tell us, in your own words, why you think the Commission should grant you the licences you have applied for.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11097 MR. GRAY: I wasn't prepared to make that speech, so I am speechless at the moment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11098 MR. VANSTONE: Mr. Chairman, we believe that this service is different from anything else that is available in the community. We believe that in each of Edmonton and Calgary there is a need to be met, with programming that is alternate to that which is available on the other services at the moment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11099 Our station is an English‑language station. There was reference to the limitation of Mandarin earlier in the morning. We broadcast in the English language.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11100 We have a level of success in Ontario that we believe we can bring to Alberta, in the Edmonton and Calgary markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11101 There has not been another demonstrated broadcaster that wants to bring religious programming specifically to those centres. We believe that we can offer that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11102 Most importantly, speaking as a western Canadian, we believe that these stations should reflect the communities in which they serve.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11103 We will apply the lessons we have learned in the Ontario market to these markets. We will provide the support mechanism. We will have some efficiencies, which we think will help us deliver the programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11104 We believe that the program expenditures to be made in these communities will be significant for the producers and the television folk in these communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11105 Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11106 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Vanstone, Mr. Gray, Reverend Mainse, and to all of your team. Thank you for an excellent presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11107 We will now move to the next item.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11108 THE SECRETARY: I would now call The Miracle Channel Association to come forward to the presentation table.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11109 THE SECRETARY: We will now proceed with Items 3 and 4 on the agenda, which are applications by The Miracle Channel Association for licences to operate English‑language transitional digital television programming undertakings in Calgary and Edmonton, associated with its existing television station, CJIL‑TV, Lethbridge, Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11110 The station would operate in Calgary on Channel 15 B, with an average effective radiated power of 76.5 watts, a maximum effective radiated power of 130 watts, and an antenna height of 216 metres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11111 The station would operate in Edmonton on Channel 21 B, with an average effective radiated power of 75 watts, a maximum effective radiated power of 128 watts, and an antenna height of 133 metres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11112 Appearing for the Applicant is Mr. Dick Dewert, who will introduce his colleagues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11113 You will have 30 minutes to make your presentation, Mr. Dewert.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 11114 DR. DEWERT: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners and Staff. My name is Dick Dewert, and I am President of The Miracle Channel Association.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11115 The applications before you today are to obtain licences for the rebroadcast of the CJIL‑TV signal from Lethbridge, Alberta, to Calgary and Edmonton via digital transmitters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11116 With me today, starting on my immediate left, is Mr. Gordon Klassen, The Miracle Channel's Vice‑President of Corporate Affairs. To his left is Mr. Kent Prestage, The Miracle Channel's Vice‑President of Finance. To his left is Mr. Jonathan Koopmans, The Miracle Channel's Vice‑President of Engineering.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11117 Mr. Chair, we are pleased to be given this opportunity to appear before you today with applications that, we feel, will greatly enhance television broadcasting in the Province of Alberta, and, more specifically, in the urban centres of Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11118 We will also outline our reasoning for the negative impacts that would likely occur should a decision be made that, effectively, cuts off our provincial market of origin to us, while allowing similar competitors from other regions of the nation to benefit from the reviewership and revenue base that we have created over the past decade.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11119 CJIL‑TV, known as The Miracle Channel, has broadcast its religious programming from Lethbridge, Alberta, since 1996. Over the past 11 years the channel has expanded its signal, due to the demand from its target audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11120 These expansions have included transmitters in Bow Island, Alberta, and Burmis, Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11121 In addition, as a distant signal on the eligible satellite list, The Miracle Channel has been distributed via DTH satellite and cable systems across Canada, with an audience reach of more than 4 million householders.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11122 Approximately 80 staff and numerous contractors and volunteers work from our 77,000 square foot facilities in Lethbridge, making us the largest broadcast facility of its kind in southern Alberta, outside of Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11123 This growth has been accomplished almost exclusively through the financial support of grateful viewers and would‑be viewers who, in faith, support The Miracle Channel in the hope that it will one day become available to them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11124 The Miracle Channel is a proven success, as we have risen from the status of a novice broadcaster in 1996 to become a nationally and internationally sought‑after entity and a valued corporate citizen in the Province of Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11125 Prior to our existence, there were very few options for the small, independent, religious television producer to access the Canadian airwaves.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11126 When we were originally licensed, we took the opportunity to work with and help develop the religious broadcast industry in Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11127 For example, a few of the independent programs which received their start through the direct efforts and cooperation of The Miracle Channel include: Word of Faith, Passionate Women, On the Edge, Marketplace Matters, For Life, Times are Refreshing ‑‑ all of the previous from Alberta ‑‑ River of Life, Songs of Living Waters, Joy and Strength, Call to Victory, Pain de Vie, Fire of God, Arise, and Off the Wall, which is also from Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11128 Truly, our story is a testament of how a Canadian broadcaster, in a marginal market, can achieve success beyond the natural odds, and is a reflection of the pioneer spirit so prevalent in our province.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11129 This afternoon, Mr. Chairman, we wish to briefly outline our reasoning in support of these applications and how Commission approval of these added transmitters in Calgary and Edmonton would add to the diversity and needs of the public while, at the same time, maintaining the success and course of existing broadcasters in these markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11130 Firstly, we believe there is a strong and demonstrable need for the terrestrial airing of The Miracle Channel in these cities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11131 Since its beginning, would‑be viewers in Calgary and Edmonton have requested that we bring our unique programming to their region. We have responded to these requests by providing our signal on DTH satellite services and to many Alberta cable systems bordering the cities of Calgary and Edmonton, including Persona Cable, Camrose Cable, Monarch Cable Systems, Slave Lake Cable, Northwestel Cable and Northern Cable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11132 Unfortunately, even though we are on Shaw Cable in the southern Alberta region, due to mandatory carriage pursuant to section 17 of the Broadcast Distribution Regulations, we have been unable to enter into an agreement with Shaw Cable to carry our channel in any tier in either Calgary or Edmonton. This, despite the thousands of requests that Shaw customers and would‑by customers have submitted over the past 11 years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11133 The Commission will note that this statement is reflected in the many letters of support received by individuals in these cities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11134 As a result, there is widespread availability of The Miracle Channel in our province, with the exception of two gaping holes ‑‑ well, actually, three ‑‑ the cities of Calgary, Red Deer and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11135 We have attempted to fill these gaps, without success, since the cable carriage of our signal is at the discretion of the local cable provider.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11136 We have been perplexed by the fact that an Alberta‑based broadcaster so widely viewed across our nation, the U.S.A., and abroad cannot secure cable carriage right here in our province.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11137 As a result, The Miracle Channel has been forced to seek alternative means of providing its signal to these major urban centres within our province of operation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11138 This is why we appear before you today, on behalf of the many viewers in these centres who seek to benefit from the local availability of The Miracle Channel brand.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11139 The need for an Alberta‑based religion channel in Calgary and Edmonton also follows the current religious trends. Statistics Canada has revealed that many Canadians, apparently, prefer to engage in some religious practices in the privacy of their home, rather than, or in addition to, religious practice in a public meeting place.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11140 According to the Ethnic Diversity Survey conducted in 2002, nearly half of the people who do not attend a religious service regularly, but who do engage in some kind of activity on their own, attach a higher degree of importance to their religion.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11141 We regularly hear from many viewers who affirm this view by their written comments, in which they attach the significance of The Miracle Channel as an important part of their religious expression.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11142 In their last published federal census, Statistics Canada reported that approximately 74 to 77 percent of the residents of both Calgary and Edmonton expressed a religious affiliation. This, coupled with the evidence that more people are seeking religious expression in their home, clearly makes a compelling argument for the need of religious programming, and, in our opinion, the Alberta‑based Miracle Channel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11143 Secondly, the viability of The Miracle Channel is proven with a track record of success, financially sound accounting, and state of the art digital‑based production facilities in Lethbridge, Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11144 Our infrastructure, in terms of studios, production, programming, staffing and administration, is already in place and operational.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11145 We feel that this is significant, in that it precludes the need for additional stand‑alone facilities in both Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11146 In the CRTC's Broadcasting Decision 2003‑601, the Commission noted that the Applicant CTS expressed the view that stand‑alone religious television stations would not be viable in Ottawa or London because of the high capital cost for establishing such stations, and the more limited advertising dollars available to them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11147 As a result, the Commission favoured the Applicant's proposal to rebroadcast its existing signal in these locales.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11148 In hindsight, it was a wise decision, as these rebroadcasts are functioning successfully today in these markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11149 Unfortunately, this was not the case in Vancouver, where another broadcaster, Trinity Television Inc., established a stand‑alone religious television station, only to see its success undermined by the economic realities of such an operation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11150 We agree that the rebroadcast of an existing Alberta religious station, such as The Miracle Channel, could best serve these cities and may not be subject to the possible failures that could result from a greater risk of two stand‑alone operations. We feel that true, for our sake.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11151 We produce more than 500 hours of original programming each year, broadcast more than 1,700 hours of original programming, provide production and broadcast facilities for independent producers from across North America, and provide the staff and resources necessary to produce documentaries and cover events throughout Alberta and other parts of Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11152 Many of our productions have won or been nominated for media awards, including the Aurora Awards, Creation Art's Media Award, Best Talk Show with the National Religious Broadcasters Association, among others.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11153 The Miracle Channel has attracted the interest of other national media, and I, personally, have been the honoured recipient of Her Majesty the Queen's Jubilee Medal, recognizing my contribution in the founding of The Miracle Channel for the spiritual benefit of Canadians.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11154 In short, The Miracle Channel has taken its place as a valued and important part of the Canadian broadcast landscape in terms of spiritual significance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11155 Beginning in 2005, The Miracle Channel began exporting its signal to other regions of the world, including the U.S.A., the Caribbean and Europe, with plans to continue adding our unique brand of Canadian religious programming to many other continents, as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11156 Thirdly, in our opinion, adding The Miracle Channel to the Calgary and Edmonton markets would not create any hardship for other local broadcasters. Our revenues, for the most part, are from viewer donations and, by condition of licence, we do not broadcast commercial advertising, with the exception of religious goods and services.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11157 As such, we will not be soliciting any national or local advertising. Therefore, The Miracle Channel will not create a financial difficulty for any existing broadcaster.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11158 In this regard, the intervention submitted by CHUM Limited to the other Applicants states of The Miracle Channel:
"As the programming on this station is very niche and different from the incumbents, it has very limited revenue potential, and The Miracle Channel does not sell commercial airtime, it is unlikely that this application would have a significant impact on CHUM's applications."
LISTNUM 1 \l 11159 In addition, The Miracle Channel has not received an opposing intervention from any existing broadcaster in the affected areas.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11160 The possibility also exists for cooperation between The Miracle Channel and the existing broadcasters in terms of shared promotion and services that would make our addition to these regions a benefit for all concerned.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11161 In fact, we already have worked with some broadcasters in these regions in areas of shared promotion and resources, and through our purchase of advertising on other stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11162 We believe that this could be further enhanced by the approval of our applications.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11163 We note that in its intervention to all Applicants, Shaw Communications opposes applications for new television programming undertakings, unless the Applicant states that it waives its rights under the BDU regulations to distribution on the basic band and distribution on a non‑restricted channel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11164 The Miracle Channel Association further notes that Shaw Communications has stated that it may be able to accommodate common channel placement across its systems in return for waiving the basic band requirement.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11165 The Miracle Channel has received a great amount of response from supporters in other cities serviced by Shaw Cable Systems, who are also requesting The Miracle Channel signal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11166 For this reason, we would consider waiving our rights under the BDU regulations to distribution on a lower basic band and distribution on a non‑restricted channel, providing a suitable channel placement can be agreed upon with Shaw Cable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11167 In terms of programming, we point to our existing program schedule. Since we are asking for the rebroadcast of our existing channel, there are no empty promises or assumptions. What our viewers are enjoying today is what the viewers of Calgary and Edmonton can also look forward to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11168 While our programming reflects the local needs of our viewers, it also has showcased many of the religious stories and ministries from the Calgary and Edmonton regions, which make up the unique nature of the Alberta faith mosaic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11169 Some of these events have included the Global Day of Prayer in Calgary, the Break Forth Conference in Edmonton, the YC ‑‑ Youth Conference ‑‑ in Edmonton, the Benny Hinn Crusade in Calgary, the co‑sponsoring of the Ron Cannoli concert in Edmonton, co‑sponsorship of the Shay Music Awards in Calgary, and the sponsorship and coverage of the Watchmen gatherings in Edmonton and Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11170 We have promoted and covered the Calgary Street Church, Mustard Seed Church, the Influencing Cities, Impacting Nations Conference in Red Deer, the Calgary Dream Centre, the Extreme Dream Ministries in Edmonton, Victory Bible College, Centre Street Church, First Assembly, and Calgary Christian Centre, to name a few.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11171 We presently assist a number of independent religious producers from Calgary and Edmonton in the production and airing of their programs, including: Times are Refreshing, Ministries of Calgary; For Life, Ministries of Calgary; Voice of the Martyrs in Edmonton; and Off the Wall ministries in Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11172 We have provided consultation and workshops for many other producers just getting started in the religious broadcast industry, and have had thousands from Calgary and Edmonton come to Lethbridge to tour our facilities and attend our special events.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11173 We also host interns each year from across Canada, who come to learn the many aspects of broadcasting in our operation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11174 In addition, we have hired some of the students coming from the broadcasting program at the Lethbridge Community College, and see them now as mature professional broadcasters in their own right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11175 Our program production, while providing for the needs of our southern Alberta audience, has reached beyond our borders to ensure the diversity of topics and views to which we are committed. This has meant drawing on‑air guests from the nearby cities of Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11176 Some of these people have included Bishop Fred Henry of the Southern Alberta Diosese, University of Calgary Professor Irving Hexham, Prime Minister Stephen Harper, Western Standard Publisher Ezra Levant, Muslim Free Press Publisher Syed Soharwardy, Secular Humanist Jeffrey Perkins, A.W. Barber, representing Calgary Buddhists, and many more.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11177 If granted licences for these cities, we would continue our commitment to exploring the issues of faith and showcasing the expressions of spirituality found within our nation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11178 Technically, our engineering briefs have been submitted to and approved by Industry Canada, and we are ready to commence the installation of what may well be the first digital television transmitters to service these two major centres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11179 We have cooperative agreements with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for broadcast equipment placement in their towers in Edmonton and Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11180 As indicated in our technical brief, The Miracle Channel strives to be at the forefront of emerging technologies and has been the prototype and testing ground for some of the new advances in broadcast technology, in cooperation with major broadcast equipment manufacturers and distributors.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11181 We have invested millions of dollars in our Lethbridge facility to ensure that the quality of our original programming and our signal distribution needs meet or exceed the expectations of Industry Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11182 We are well positioned to provide the technical requirements needed for digital transmission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11183 It should be noted that The Miracle Channel has already achieved its goal of exceeding 9 percent of its programming closed‑captioned during the broadcast day. This was accomplished three years earlier than the deadline given by the Commission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11184 The significance of this should not be underestimated, as many of the independent producers who supply programming to the channel do not have the budget or technology to provide closed captioning. As a result, The Miracle Channel invested heavily in creating an in‑house Captioning Department to ensure that our goals are met consistently in this regard.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11185 We agree with former CRTC Chairman Charles Dalfen when he, in announcing the framework for the distribution of over‑the‑air digital television signals in 2003, said:
"For the transition to digital to work, digital services need to be widely distributed so that Canadians can watch them. Giving viewers better access to digital signals will help drive the transition to digital to benefit the broadcasting system as a whole."
LISTNUM 1 \l 11186 In order for this to happen, we believe it is imperative that the Commission seek to license broadcasters willing to give viewers this access to digital signals through DTV transmission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11187 The Miracle Channel has always strived at being a pioneer in religious broadcasting in Canada, and will continue to offer this same spirit to the applications before you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11188 Despite the positives which we feel our applications have, we would be remiss not to mention the serious impact that could occur should our Applicants in this competition be approved, while The Miracle Channel is denied.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11189 We do not stand in opposition to any of the competing applications, as we believe that The Miracle Channel brand can coexist very well with any of the other applications, including CTS.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11190 However, it must be stressed that the exclusion of The Miracle Channel in these important markets would create a threat to our base of support, which already exists in these cities, and future expected growth in our organization.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11191 There are presently about 1,000 Miracle Channel donors in these cities who, without the advantage of the widespread distribution of our signal, could be locked out of these markets, which would cause significant harm to our donor base in Alberta, which represents our singular largest portion of donor income.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11192 In addition, a significant portion of our total income comes from the sale of airtime to broadcast ministries who also exist on donations from viewers. Should The Miracle Channel be locked out of the Calgary and Edmonton markets, it is reasonable to assume that these clients would seek other means to provide their programs to these cities, thereby leaving The Miracle Channel at a competitive disadvantage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11193 However, should The Miracle Channel coexist with any of the other Applicants, we feel confident in our ability to retain and grow our number of airtime clients.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11194 Should The Miracle Channel not gain access to these markets, the future of many of the independent religious producers who have partnered with The Miracle Channel, in the hope that access to their home market will eventually be gained, may come into question. Even worse, The Miracle Channel will stand to lose the many viewers and supporters who rely on our satellite television or streaming video on the internet to receive The Miracle Channel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11195 In support of this, there are more than 650 letters, e‑mails and faxes in favour of our applications. These Albertans desire to view the only religious television channel originating in Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11196 In summary, Mr. Chairman, The Miracle Channel respectfully asks the Commission to rule in favour of our applications to rebroadcast our signal through digital transmission within the Calgary and Edmonton regions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11197 The need of the service in these areas is proven, as is the viability, integrity and success of our operation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11198 In our view, there is no negative impact to already existing broadcasters in these cities, and, in our opinion, many consumers are already beginning to receive digital off‑air transmissions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11199 We do not stand in opposition to any of the competing applications.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11200 That, Mr. Chairman, concludes the formal portion of our presentation, and we stand prepared to answer any questions you may have in regard to our applications.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11201 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Dr. Dewert. I will direct my questions to you, and you may choose to answer them directly or ask one of your colleagues to reply.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11202 Since it is not an application for a new station, but for the rebroadcast of an existing station in Lethbridge, I will have very few questions regarding programming, except to get a better understanding of what you are currently doing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11203 I will start with your programming chart, the one you filed with your applications. This is only for me to understand your programming better.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11204 I notice that your programming grid mentions that you have programming coming from various foreign sources. Mainly, you name the U.S., Israel, Europe and Africa.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11205 What type of programs are they? Could you describe them in a nutshell for our benefit?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11206 DR. DEWERT: The U.S.A. programs are, for the most part, broadcast ministries that purchase the airtime for those time slots.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11207 With others, they may be affiliations that we have ‑‑ programs originating from other locations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11208 The one in Israel, specifically ‑‑ Israel Vision ‑‑ is actually a Canadian who lives in Israel and produces the program. That is the reason we have connected with that program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11209 With respect to specific answers on programs, our VP of Corporate Affairs handles the program schedule, as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11210 THE CHAIRPERSON: Even including the Israel program, which, as you say, is produced by a Canadian living in Israel, I have to say that you have a very interesting website. I've been perusing and watching some of your programs and I happened to watch your Israel program at least once. I have to agree that it is quite a documentary. It is not preaching. It is some kind of a documentary, three or four documentary segments on various news or significant social events or societal issues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11211 I have to agree that this program is very well produced. But I understand that it is financed through donations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11212 MR. DEWERT: Are you specifically referring to "Israel Vision" as the program?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11213 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm not sure if it was "Israel Vision". I know it was programming coming from Israel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11214 MR. DEWERT: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11215 THE CHAIRPERSON: In the documentary form. At the tail end of the program, there was some solicitation for financial support.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11216 MR. DEWERT: Then I would assume that to be the program "Israel Vision". And the hosts of that, Dr. Jay and Meridel Rawlings, they do have an organization that they use to raise funds for that program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11217 We provide airtime for them. They do not purchase airtime.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11218 THE CHAIRPERSON: You provide the airtime for them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11219 Any other similar programming that you provide airtime on a free basis?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11220 MR. DEWERT: Yes, we do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11221 I'm going to give this to Gord Klassen.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11222 MR. KLASSEN: Yes, we have a number of programs that we supply free airtime to, specifically to some of the aboriginal programmings on Saturday afternoon, such as "Spirit Alive" and "Tribal Trails".
LISTNUM 1 \l 11223 Also from time to time we have specials that are sent to us where they request if we can air it at no charge to them. And depending if it fits our programming needs, from time to time we do air those as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11224 Any other specific ones right now, I can't think of right off the top.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11225 THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't have specific titles. I am asking general questions to have a better understanding of what you are doing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11226 All these programs do solicit donations. Am I right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11227 MR. DEWERT: Most of the programs on our station would probably be donor funded in one form or another. Some are not. For example, "First Century Foundations" is a program that is Canadian produced but originates in Israel and visits the various sites of interest to Christians in Israel. They receive sponsorship from various organizations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11228 THE CHAIRPERSON: Any other similar programs or is it the sole one? That's the one I saw. The one you just described is the one that I saw on your website.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11229 MR. DEWERT: There may be another. I can't think of one right now, but I am sure there are some others that function that way that are more of a documentary and are funded through a sponsorship of some kind.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11230 THE CHAIRPERSON: I notice in your program grid that you are using some codes, and one of them is local audiences.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11231 Do you mean that it is a program that is produced before an audience?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11232 MR. DEWERT: Which program specifically?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11233 THE CHAIRPERSON: Say "LifeLine".
LISTNUM 1 \l 11234 MR. DEWERT: Yes. My wife and I cohost "LifeLine" and it is taped live‑to‑tape in our studios. There is a small studio audience, sometimes a little larger depending on who the guest is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11235 THE CHAIRPERSON: Another one is "Victory Church".
LISTNUM 1 \l 11236 MR. DEWERT: That is a brokered airtime. Victory Church in Lethbridge purchases the airtime for that program on our station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11237 THE CHAIRPERSON: But the program is produced in a church where there is attendance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11238 MR. DEWERT: Yes, that is correct. It is more or less a church service type program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11239 THE CHAIRPERSON: You also have another code, which is priority program. And "LifeLine" again is a priority program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11240 What do you mean by priority program?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11241 MR. KLASSEN: The "LifeLine" program, we also use that program to bring in other denominations, other points of views from other denominations, local and across Canada and North America. We use that as part of our balanced programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11242 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that all the programs on your programming grid that are identified as priority programs are what you will be calling balanced programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11243 MR. KLASSEN: Specifically the balanced programming that we indicate are the programs "LifeLine", "in sight" and "Behind the Scenes".
LISTNUM 1 \l 11244 THE CHAIRPERSON: I see here "Revival Harvest" with a "P" beside it. I have another one which I see, "Fire of God" and a few others: "Eternally Yours", "Songs of Living", "Lessons for Leaders", ".wavFile".
LISTNUM 1 \l 11245 All these programs are identified as being priority programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11246 MR. KLASSEN: Those programs then would be all Canadian programming, part of our 60 percent Canadian programming. Some of those programs are from other provinces.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11247 THE CHAIRPERSON: Again, I can see that you have for Canadian programming "House of David", which doesn't have either an "L" or a "T" beside it. That means it is not produced before a live audience but it is not priority either, but is Canadian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11248 MR. KLASSEN: That's right. "House of David" is Canadian and it is produced by the producer in his studio but not in front of a live audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11249 Some of the other ones, of course, are produced in a church service situation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11250 THE CHAIRPERSON: So the "P" that I see beside numerous titles, it is something that I'm not really capable to decode because it has different meanings, depending what the title is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11251 Am I right to say that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11252 MR. KLASSEN: Yes. The coding is something that is determined with our Traffic Department, together with the Commission. To speak to the specific issues of why some are quoted as being priority and others not, that would be a question we would have to defer to our Traffic Department.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11253 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you, for the benefit of the Commission, provide us with a more detailed explanation? And could we expect to have it by some time tomorrow?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11254 MR. KLASSEN: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11255 THE CHAIRPERSON: Obviously every time I see "CC" ‑‑ and most of your programs I will see "CC" ‑‑ that means it is closed captioned. Am I right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11256 MR. KLASSEN: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11257 THE CHAIRPERSON: And I would say that except for "Spirit Life", which is on Saturday at 3:00 p.m., that one is not closed captioned.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11258 Any reason why that program is not closed captioned?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11259 MR. KLASSEN: It does not come to us closed captioned. It certainly can be. We have endeavoured to try and get programs closed captioned that we get within the time limits to be able to closed caption it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11260 I believe that is one of the programs that we usually get in perhaps only a day prior to airing, so we don't have the time to closed caption it. But we still are over our 90 percent requirement.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11261 THE CHAIRPERSON: Your programming grid goes from 6:00 a.m. to midnight. I have seen on your website that you were broadcasting some programming in the French language, but there is none during the day time or in the broadcast day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11262 According to your website you have French programming. When is it broadcast?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11263 MR. KLASSEN: We have had a number of French language ministries contact us wishing to air their program on our channel, specifically "Reveil" in Levy. We have aired them early Sunday morning so that it falls of course in the more eastern parts of the country, in Quebec in particular, at a suitable time of the day on a Sunday morning without getting in the way too much of our language content or English language content during the rest of the day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11264 THE CHAIRPERSON: I tried one of those that were giving us an hyperlink and ended up in French. So it is not a Canadian program. It is a foreign program coming from France?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11265 MR. KLASSEN: No. These are Canadian programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11266 THE CHAIRPERSON: You had a hyperlink. I did a thorough research on your site and I ended up on a French website.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11267 MR. KLASSEN: That could well be. We also have a vignette that we play throughout the day, called "Seeds of Faith". That particular gentleman that does that program has various links to other French language ministries, and I believe one of those could possibly be in France. But he is Canadian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11268 THE CHAIRPERSON: The programs that you mentioned with a local audience, they are not all produced in Lethbridge.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11269 MR. KLASSEN: I can speak to the programs that are produced in Lethbridge.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11270 Specifically, they are the "LifeLine" program, "in sight", "Behind the Scenes", "Lessons for Leaders", "P.U.'s Place", ".wavFile", "Revival in the Land", "Possessing the Land", "Power of Partnership", "The Great Harvest", "Fresh Oil", "Extreme New Years", "New Years", "Sea to Sea" and "The Edge".
LISTNUM 1 \l 11271 These are all produced in our Lethbridge studios.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11272 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you produce anywhere else in Alberta? Do you have remote facilities?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11273 MR. KLASSEN: We do not have remote facilities at this time. We do send camera crews out to all areas of Alberta and other provinces from time to time to bring back coverage for segments and documentaries and programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11274 MR. DEWERT: If I may add to that, we do special events or conferences in Ottawa and we have done them in other cities, as well as Lethbridge, of course. And when we do, we contract television services and record them there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11275 They are recorded live‑to‑tape but not broadcast live.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11276 THE CHAIRPERSON: What portion of your programming is live versus pretaped?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11277 MR. KLASSEN: On a regular basis we would have one hour live each day, Monday through Thursday. That would be our live phone‑in program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11278 Beyond that, our live programming would be our fund raising programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11279 THE CHAIRPERSON: And those are occurring twice a year?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11280 MR. KLASSEN: Those are currently once per quarter.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11281 THE CHAIRPERSON: Once per quarter.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11282 And those are the programs which have raised some concerns from the part of your viewers, and they have reached the Commission and brought us in an exchange of correspondence, including one that was sent to you no later than late last week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11283 I suggest that you have already received that letter sent from staff.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11284 I wonder at this stage if you have any further comments to make regarding that specific letter from CRTC staff.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11285 MR. KLASSEN: Yes, I do. The Miracle Channel has operated for more than 11 years as a non‑profit charity in good standing with a number of regulatory bodies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11286 For the record, we are audited annually by KPMG and have been audited by the Charities Division of Revenue Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11287 We follow the Guidelines of the Religious Broadcast Policy, the Charities Act, the Guidelines on Fund Raising as given by the Canadian Council of Christian Charities and our own internal fund raising policy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11288 We note that we are responsible for the airing of fund raising appeals on the channel and to ensure that our programmers and guests and are informed and agree with the rules and regulations regarding on‑air fund raising.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11289 Having said this, we have noted in particular that there has been particularly one viewer who frequently challenges our right to fund raise. And it was as a result of one such complaint a number of years ago Commission staff concluded that a few of the statements made by one of our guests on the channel were not in line with the religious broadcast policy on fund raising. So Commission staff requested us to submit an internal fund raising policy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11290 We did this immediately, incorporating in our revision the suggestions made by Nick Ketchum, CRTC's Senior Policy Analyst, and recently we have received a response from Mr. Ketchum stating that Commission staff are satisfied that our internal fund raising policy is an effective tool to ensure compliance with the provisions regarding solicitation of funds as set out in the Religious Broadcasting Policy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11291 THE CHAIRPERSON: Since you developed the policy, that means that you are comfortable with the policy that you have developed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11292 If the Commission were to make it a condition of licence, what would be your comment, since it is your policy?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11293 MR. DEWERT: It is our policy. It did go through a revision process with Commission staff. We would have no difficulty accepting that as a condition of licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11294 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are taking your reply under advisement. Since you will not be originating local programming in Calgary and Edmonton and it is not the renewal of your Lethbridge station, we will have to discuss with our legal people if we can make it a condition of licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11295 We appreciate your statement at this stage. We will need to do some further investigation on our part.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11296 If the Commission were to grant you the licence in Calgary and Edmonton, will it have any impact on your current programming grid in Lethbridge in order to reflect the new community that you will be serving?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11297 MR. DEWERT: We probably already reflect a great deal of the communities of Calgary and Edmonton, largely because the size of Lethbridge in southern Alberta itself is somewhat limiting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11298 To fulfil a full 24‑hour programming day and to access guests for a daily one‑hour program, we have to reach beyond our local area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11299 Having said that, I would expect that that would only increase; that we would access more guests, more events. We already presently send a camera crew with a mobile into these cities to cover events, and some of these events are some of the biggest Christian events held in our nation. So they are worthy of reporting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11300 So I would assume that we would only do more of this in the days ahead.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11301 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand that you do it in Calgary, and you gave us a list of titles in your oral presentation of programming that while originating in Lethbridge are also using footage coming from Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11302 The very fact that you are not distributed by Shaw is surely an impairment for you to do the same in Edmonton. I notice that you only had one title of programming that was reflecting more Edmonton than anywhere else.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11303 If you were to be granted a licence for say Edmonton, have you considered doing more reflection programming on the Edmonton community?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11304 MR. DEWERT: Since our licence in 1996, we actively pursued programmers from Calgary‑Edmonton ‑‑ for that matter, anywhere. We literally were desperate for programmers, period.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11305 There was no industry when we started to speak of, other than my dear friend David Mains who really began Christian television programming in our nation. Literally, we feel we stand on his shoulders.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11306 We have found it very hard to access programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11307 The greatest impairment that we found is that people said we don't see your channel here in Calgary, we don't see your channel here in Edmonton. It has been difficult for us to acquire programmers from these locations, or any other location for that matter, because of that concern.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11308 I would expect that we will be able to secure more programs from these two cities specifically, largely because the programmer in those cities wants to reach the viewers in their city. Now they would be able to if we were licensed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11309 THE CHAIRPERSON: And even if you don't have production facilities in those two cities? Through cable and satellite, you said it yourself, you are covering at least Calgary fairly extensively.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11310 Maybe there is a local population that is not subscribing to any distribution undertakings and they could be significant because in all urban areas of this country it is Commission knowledge that there are about 10 to 15 percent of the local population that is not subscribing to any BDUs. Other than that, 85 percent of the Calgary viewers could watch your station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11311 You just said that your programmers are saying that they have less interest in doing programming because their program is not available in these markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11312 Do you think that only having an off‑air rebroad in, start first with Calgary, will be sufficient to prompt those independent producers to propose more programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11313 MR. DEWERT: I definitely believe that would be the case. Of course, with over‑the‑air broadcast and cable carriage that comes with that over‑the‑air digital broadcast, we would then have a great many more potential viewers in those cities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11314 For many programmers that is their core issue. They want to reach their city, especially if it is a local church‑based program. Their interest is to reach their immediate market outside their doorstep, which is their city in Edmonton or Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11315 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sure that you have looked at Shaw's current digital distribution line‑up and you have an idea of how many subscribers they have in the digital world before filing your application and before replying to the request that Shaw made in their intervention.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11316 How many viewers do you expect to get say from Calgary and from Edmonton in a digital world, to start with. Even if those extended markets have around each 1.4 million viewers, you will have some limitation only by the very fact that you will be on digital, at least to start with.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11317 MR. DEWERT: Our understanding is that the Broadcast Distribution Regulations require digital over‑the‑air to also be carried on cable, on the basic band of cable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11318 If it were to be just on digital, that we understand is the growing market. There is a transition that viewers on analog cable are moving over to digital. And right at this moment we have entered the southern Ontario area through an affiliation with Rogers digital cable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11319 While it takes a little longer to develop an audience on the digital tier, we are seeing response from that. Typically, it takes us two to three years to see a completion of that, where people learn where you are and learn to watch your program there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11320 THE CHAIRPERSON: You feel sufficiently comfortable that you will get the same out of Calgary and Edmonton?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11321 MR. DEWERT: If we were to be distributed on the basic analog cable, that process would happen very quickly. On digital, it would also happen. It just takes longer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11322 We find that our viewer ‑‑ it has been described as a niche audience ‑‑ finds us. If we do sufficient promotion and communication with churches and other organizations, we eventually do find that viewers will find us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11323 One case in point is that many of these viewers watch us on our website through the streaming video that we provide, although it is a very limited broadcast because of the limitations of the Internet.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11324 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you of the view that the Calgary, Edmonton and Lethbridge community are communities that are quite alike in terms of religious programming? Obviously, you have there two major urban centres versus a more rural area where you are based.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11325 Are the viewers that are really interested in religious programming culturally very similar in wherever they live throughout Alberta?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11326 MR. KLASSEN: If we go by religious adherence, I would have to say yes, it is quite common throughout the province of Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11327 Specifically those that describe themselves of being any religious affiliation, the numbers are approximately, according to Stats Canada, 75 percent in Lethbridge and anywhere from 66 to 68 percent in Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11328 So there is a large portion that consider themselves to be of religious affiliation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11329 MR. DEWERT: If I can add to Gord's response, if we go by the responses and being a donor run ministry, I mean donor responses, then we find the highest area of response ‑‑ one of the highest areas, I should say ‑‑ for The Miracle Channel is the Edmonton and area if we are going by that factor.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11330 THE CHAIRPERSON: So the level of response is higher in Edmonton than it will be in Lethbridge where you are based.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11331 There are more people living in Edmonton than in Lethbridge, but on a per capita basis.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11332 MR. KLASSEN: No. I would think proportionately , if you prorate that it would probably be higher in our immediate broadcast areas. Our visibility is quite strong, having been there for 11 years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11333 I would definitely say that Edmonton is a very close ‑‑ or I should say the Edmonton and area. We don't actually have a lot of penetration into Edmonton. So it is very close.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11334 We have always had a very strong demand from all across Alberta. I believe over 30 percent of our donor income comes from Alberta itself, our largest singular province of support.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11335 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would suspect that it is quite normal because you are Alberta based.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11336 MR. DEWERT: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11337 THE CHAIRPERSON: I noticed in going onto your website, and you alluded to it in your oral presentation, that your service is available not only in Canada but by satellite it's available in numerous locations in the U.S. and in the Pacific Islands.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11338 Are you getting any results from these locations?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11339 MR. DEWERT: We have put our programming on in various amounts in satellite feeds all over the world. Some of the most encouraging results and responses to us have come from Europe and Africa.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11340 I have two letters actually from European Parliament members who have said that of the 34 or 35 religious stations available on satellite, on the Hot Bird satellite over Europe, they felt that The Miracle Channel as a Canadian identity was the most popular and the most appealing to them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11341 We found that as well from the letters of response.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11342 The other area that a lot of our original programming is carried in is in Africa, and we get a great deal of response from that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11343 But probably before that we do have satellite distribution for the USA, and we also place our anchor program, which is called "LifeLine", which my wife and I host, we place that on other networks as well ‑‑ CTS is one example ‑‑ and purchasing air time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11344 We find our responses any time that we have done that as very positive.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11345 There is a very strong demand for Canadian Christian programming in the world. It is seen very favourably. In response to that, we feel that sometime in the future we will be able to do an international version of The Miracle Channel that will really embody an international appeal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11346 One of the areas that we would really like to focus more of our time and energy on in that would be francophone programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11347 THE CHAIRPERSON: Coming out of Lethbridge?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11348 MR. DEWERT: That is unique, isn't it. I was surprised at how many francophones there are in Lethbridge when I saw the actual statistics. I think it was somewhere around 7,000 people. I was quite surprised at the number of French speaking people in that area, because the stereotype is that it is not there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11349 We have a number of French speaking staff that work at The Miracle Channel, and we get a great deal of very positive response from Quebec.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11350 We would expect that is through our satellite, Bell ExpressVu and Star Choice. They are very positive and they are very thankful for any amount of French speaking programming that we do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11351 I only see that we will do a lot more of that in the future.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11352 Of course, being a donor run ministry, you have to be conscious of how much time you allot to the various areas of various languages. It is something that we will be doing more of but again within a certain amount of limits.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11353 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will now move to your Regulatory Review Committee.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11354 But before going there, I notice in watching your service that in your promos you were identifying yourself as a multi‑religious channel rather than a multi‑faith channel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11355 Could you explain to me the difference that you are making between the two?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11356 MR. KLASSEN: I don't know exactly what the terms were when that was written, but as far as being multi‑religious, I guess there are many different types of religious thought in all forms of Christianity and other non‑Christian faiths as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11357 Of course, we do seek to reflect those many views in our programming and including in our balance programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11358 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have set up a Regulatory Review Committee. Could you describe for us the role and responsibilities of that committee.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11359 MR. DEWERT: Gord Klassen, our V.P. of Corporate, does deal directly with the Regulatory Review Committee. He attends all the meetings and is a part of that, so I will let him answer that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11360 MR. KLASSEN: Yes, we have a six member committee, a Regulatory Review Committee. They are a volunteer committee and they meet together with the station management usually about once a month throughout the broadcast year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11361 Their duties, of course, are to ensure that we are living up to our conditions of licence in terms of Canadian content, in terms of closed captioning percentages, in terms of balance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11362 They also have the opportunity to review any programs that they wish, and they have an opportunity as well to see any complaints or concerns that come to the station and our responses.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11363 We have been very pleased with how proactive they have been in expressing their thoughts and views to station management, and we have incorporated many of their suggestions in our programming. And it has been quite successful.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11364 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Have they been involved in developing the fund raising policy?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11365 MR. KLASSEN: Yes, they have.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11366 THE CHAIRPERSON: You said that it is made up of six people. I'm not looking for names, but what kind of people are they and what is their background?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11367 MR. KLASSEN: They are varied. We have one who is an aboriginal leader from Piikani Nation on the Blood Tribe. We have another one who is a chartered psychologist. We have another one who is a city alderman in the City of Lethbridge. We have another one from an Anglican church background. In the past we have had other ones from other church backgrounds.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11368 As well, we have a number of staff members ‑‑ I believe two staff members ‑‑ that also sit as volunteers on the committee.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11369 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you have four external people and two ‑‑ including yourself, I understood from Dr. Dewert ‑‑ that are part of that committee.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11370 MR. KLASSEN: I'm not a part of the committee, but I am the station representative at the table.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11371 THE CHAIRPERSON: At the table. So you are the one who is making the consultation?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11372 MR. KLASSEN: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11373 MR. DEWERT: I'm not part of that committee either.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11374 THE CHAIRPERSON: The staff members, they are not necessarily in the management?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11375 MR. KLASSEN: No. One of them works in the IT Department and the another one works in the Traffic Department.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11376 THE CHAIRPERSON: They are representative of the community that you are trying to serve?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11377 MR. KLASSEN: Yes, and they come from other church groups in the City of Lethbridge.