ARCHIVÉ -  Transcription

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

              TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

 

 

 

                          SUBJECT:

 

 

 

VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

 

Delta Bow Valley                      Delta Bow Valley

209 4th Avenue SE                     209, 4th Avenue SE

Calgary, Alberta                      Calgary (Alberta)

 

February 12, 2007                     Le 12 février 2007

 

 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

 

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

                 Transcript / Transcription

 

 

 

            VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

            PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Michel Arpin                      Chairperson / Président

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Barbara Cram                      Commissioner / Conseillère

Stuart Langford                   Commissioner / Conseiller

Ronald Williams                   Commissioner / Conseiller

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Jade Roy                          Secretary / Secrétaire

Peter McCallum                    Legal Counsel /

Conseiller juridique

Marie-Claude Mentor               Hearing Manager /

Gérante de l'audience

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

 

Delta Bow Valley                  Delta Bow Valley

209 4th Avenue SE                 209, 4th Avenue SE

Calgary, Alberta                  Calgary (Alberta)

 

February 12, 2007                 Le 12 février 2007

 

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE I

 

 

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

Crossroads Television System                        7 /   50

 

The Miracle Channel Association                   136 / 1114

 

Rogers Broadcasting Limited                       206 / 1576

 

 

 

 

                                     Calgary, Alberta

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Monday, February 12, 2007

    at 9:30 a.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning.  For those who don't know me, my name is Michel Arpin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12                I am wearing a headset, not because I will be listening to the translation, but because I am partially hearing impaired and I want to make sure that I hear what you say to the Commission during your appearance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13                Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.  Welcome to this public hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14                My name is Michel Arpin, and I am the Vice Chair of Broadcasting for the CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15                I will be presiding over this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16                Joining me on the panel are my colleagues Barbara Cram, Regional Commissioner for Manitoba and Saskatchewan; Rita Cugina, Regional Commissioner for Ontario; Stuart Langford, at the far left, National Commissioner; and Ronald Williams, Regional Commissioner for Alberta and the Northwest Territories.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17                The Commission team assisting us includes Hearing Manager Marie‑Claude Mentor, who is also a Senior Broadcasting Analyst; Peter McCallum, Legal Counsel; and Jade Roy, Hearing Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18                Please speak with Ms Roy if you have any questions with regard to hearing procedures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19                At this hearing we will first examine 10 applications to provide new television services to the Calgary and Edmonton markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 110               We will then review an application by Only Imagine Inc. for a licence to operate a relay distribution undertaking.

LISTNUM 1 \l 111               The panel will begin by considering proposals for Crossroads Television System to operate an English‑language religious television programming undertaking in Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 112               This will be followed by two applications presented by The Miracle Channel Association to operate an English‑language transitional digital television programming undertaking in Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 113               In both of these applications The Miracle Channel Association is proposing that the station simulcast the current programming of CJIL‑TV, Lethbridge, a religious station, in its entirety.

LISTNUM 1 \l 114               Next, the panel will consider two applications each from Rogers Broadcasting Limited and MVBC Holdings Limited to operate multilingual ethnic television programming undertakings in Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 115               Rogers Broadcasting is proposing to direct programming to 25 ethnic groups, in 19 different languages, while MVBC Holdings is proposing to direct programming to 17 ethnic groups, in 17 different languages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 116               We will then review the application from CanWest MediaWorks Inc. to amend the licence of CHCA‑TV, Red Deer, in order to have TV transmitters in Calgary and Edmonton to broadcast its programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 117               The applicant indicated that it will not solicit local advertising in the markets in question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 118               Some of these applications are competing, technically, for the use of the same channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 119               The panel will then assess the application from Only Imagine Inc. for a licence to operate a relay distribution undertaking.  The proposed undertaking would insert commercial advertisements or promotional materials into the local availabilities of non‑Canadian programming services distributed by various broadcasting distribution undertakings across the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 120               The Commission intends to discuss various issues with the applicant related to the use of local availabilities and the U.S. programming services for commercial advertising, and any potential impact on Canadian programming services and broadcasting distribution undertakings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 121               I will now invite the Hearing Secretary, Jade Roy, to explain the procedures we will be following.

LISTNUM 1 \l 122               THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 123               Before beginning, I would like to go over a few housekeeping matters to ensure the proper conduct of the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 124               When you are in the hearing room, I would ask you to please turn off your cellphones, beepers, Blackberrys and other text messaging devices, as they are unwelcome distractions for participants and Commissioners, and they cause interference on the internal communications system used by our translators.

LISTNUM 1 \l 125               We would appreciate your cooperation in this regard throughout the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 126               We expect the hearing to take approximately three days.  Tuesday and Wednesday we will begin each morning at 8:30 a.m., and finish around 5:30 p.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 127               We will take an hour for lunch, and a break in the morning and in the afternoon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 128               We will let you know of any schedule changes that may occur.

LISTNUM 1 \l 129               The Clearwater Room, located on the first floor, will serve as the Examination Room, where you can examine the public files of the applications being considered at this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 130               As indicated on the agenda, the telephone number of the Examination Room is 403‑205‑5430.

LISTNUM 1 \l 131               There is a verbatim transcript of this hearing being taken by the court reporter sitting at the table in front of me.  If you have any questions on how to obtain all or part of this transcript, please approach the court reporter during a break.

LISTNUM 1 \l 132               Please note that the full transcript will be made available on the Commission's website shortly after the conclusion of the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 133               Simultaneous translation is available during the hearing.  You can obtain a translation receiver through the technician at the back of the room.  The English interpretation is on Channel 1, and the French is on Channel 2.

LISTNUM 1 \l 134               Finally, we will proceed at the hearing with a four‑phase process, as follows:

LISTNUM 1 \l 135               First, each applicant will be granted 30 minutes to make its presentation for both the Calgary and Edmonton markets.  Questions from the Commission will follow each presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 136               In Phase 2, the applicants re‑appear, in the same order, to intervene, if they wish, on the competing applications.  Ten minutes are allowed for this purpose.  Questions from the Commission may follow each intervention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 137               In Phase 3, other parties will appear in the order set out in the agenda to present their appearing interventions, and 10 minutes will be allowed for each presentation.  Again, questions from the Commission may follow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 138               Phase 4 provides an opportunity for each applicant to reply to all of the interventions submitted on their application.  Applicants appear in reverse order.  Ten minutes will be allowed for this reply.  Again, questions may follow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 139               For the record, we wish to inform you of the following:

LISTNUM 1 \l 140               Three documents were added to the examination files for The Miracle Channel Association Applications 2006‑05181 and 2006‑04969.  The documents are:

LISTNUM 1 \l 141               The finalized version of The Miracle Channel Association's internal fundraising policy for Station CJIL‑TV, Lethbridge, Alberta, including a covering letter and a final staff determination letter that explains the Commission's past position on The Miracle Channel Association's fundraising policy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 142               Also, the 2006 preliminary financial data for the Calgary and Edmonton markets is available in the Examination Room.

LISTNUM 1 \l 143               Finally, please note that for Application 2005‑14340, for the renewal of the licence of CKCL‑FM in Chilliwack by Rogers Broadcasting Limited, additional documents have recently been added to the public examination file, and additional correspondence will follow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 144               Please note that CHUM Limited has withdrawn its Application 2006‑15015, which was listed as a non‑appearing item for this public hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 145               Phase 1:  Now, Mr. Chairman, we will proceed with Items 1 and 2 on the agenda, which are applications by Crossroads Television System for licences to operate English‑language religious television programming undertakings in Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 146               The new station in Calgary would operate on Channel 32, with an effective radiated power of 75,000 watts, non‑directional antenna, antenna height of 206 metres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 147               The new station in Edmonton would operate on Channel 45, with an average effective radiated power of 34,000 watts, maximum effective radiated power of 71,000 watts, antenna height of 176 metres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 148               Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Richard Gray, who will introduce his colleagues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 149               You have 30 minutes to make your presentation, Mr. Gray.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 150               MR. GRAY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 151               Good morning, Chair Arpin and Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 152               Crossroads Television System is one of the few independent services remaining in the landscape of merging television entities in Canada, and we thank you for this opportunity to present and discuss our plans to establish local, balanced, religious over‑the‑air television stations in Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 153               We want to apply to Calgary and Edmonton the experience we have gained in eight years of operations in Ontario as an over‑the‑air religious broadcaster.  We believe that both Edmonton and Calgary warrant the establishment of local religious television stations, with local production initiatives that will reflect the respective identities of each of these communities, and build upon the CTS model which we believe has proven successful in meeting and advancing the religious broadcast policy established by the Commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 154               At this time I would like to present our presentation panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 155               On your right, and my left, at the far end of the table, is our Corporate Comptroller, Matt Hillier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 156               Next to Matt is the Chairman of our CTS Board of Directors, Fred Vanstone.

LISTNUM 1 \l 157               To my right is our Program Director, Rob Sheppard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 158               To Rob's right is native Albertan Drew Martin.  Drew is well known to members of the Alberta independent production community, and will be our Regional Manager for CTS Alberta stations, if and when we are licensed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 159               Next to Drew is Richard Landau, Senior Executive Producer for Balanced Programming on CTS.

LISTNUM 1 \l 160               Richard has organized, chaired and participated in interfaith dialogue groups throughout North America, and he has authored the book "What the World Needs to Know about Interfaith Dialogue".

LISTNUM 1 \l 161               Richard joined CTS prior to our 1998 start‑up, providing leadership in the planning and development of our balanced program schedule.

LISTNUM 1 \l 162               We were gratified that when our first licence renewal was issued in August of 2004, the text of that renewal decision stated:

"In the Commission's view, Crossroads has provided its audience with a high degree of diversity in religious programming and has demonstrated considerable diligence in complying with the Guidelines of Balanced Programming as set out in the Religious Broadcasting Policy."

LISTNUM 1 \l 163               Next to Richard is Janine Maxwell, a member of our CTS Board of Directors.  Janine was founder and president of Onyx Advertising in Toronto, and recently divested her advertising agency interest to devote her time and skills to the funding and care of orphan victims of AIDS in Africa.

LISTNUM 1 \l 164               Janine brings to us welcome expertise in marketing, including branding, and continues to provide valuable counsel for us in these areas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 165               Next to Janine is our Director of Sales and Marketing, Glenn Stewart.

LISTNUM 1 \l 166               In our second row, right behind me, and on my left, your right, is Reverend David Mainse, a member of our CTS Board of Directors.  Reverend Mainse began his television ministry journey in 1962, with a 15‑minute weekly television program following the Saturday night late news in the Ottawa Valley town of Pembroke, Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 167               In 1997 he launched the daily 100 Huntley Street program across Canada, a program which is still bringing hope and encouragement daily to thousands of Canadians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 168               Reverend Mainse was founding chairman of CTS when we began broadcasting in Ontario in 1998.

LISTNUM 1 \l 169               Next to Reverend Mainse is our Director of Engineering, David Storey.

LISTNUM 1 \l 170               As has been already announced, I am Richard Gray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 171               Before we begin our discussion, we would like you to view a brief, seven‑minute video presentation.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

LISTNUM 1 \l 172               MR. GRAY:  Chair Arpin and Members of the Commission panel, prior to submitting our applications to the Commission in July of 2005, we conducted a number of meetings with Alberta's independent production community, and in the year and a half since our applications were submitted, we subsequently have had private, one‑on‑one meetings with more than 50 of those Alberta producers and writers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 173               As a result of these very constructive and positive communications, under the leadership of Alberta station management, CTS intends to engage the independent production community to produce all of its local programming in each of the cities of Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 174               In an effort to assist Alberta producers in the development of unique Canadian faith and values programming, I am pleased to announce that, in addition to the $9.660 million, detail letter applications, that CTS will spend on local programming over the first term of the licences, we will be making available a first year Alberta Development Fund of $300,000, and an annual $30,000 ongoing Alberta Mentorship Program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 175               Alberta local programming expenditures will, therefore, total $10,170,000 over the first term of the licences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 176               We believe that this additional commitment to the Alberta production community will further enhance our program schedule and provide Alberta producers with the necessary funding to produce television you can believe in for Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 177               Chair Arpin and Commissioners, we welcome your questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 178               THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Gray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 179               I would ask Commissioner Langford to initiate the questioning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 180               COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 181               Welcome to Calgary, as I suppose you could welcome me to Calgary, since none of us is from Calgary.  But it's great to be here.  I hope we can have a little fun this morning and learn a little bit more about what you are planning for Calgary and Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 182               I watched that film with some interest.  I guess, if I hadn't read any of your stuff and I just had to sum you up on the basis of that film, I think you have great potential to be religious broadcasters, but you ought to include a little Christian content.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 183               COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That might fill out your schedule for you a little.

LISTNUM 1 \l 184               I will have a couple of questions about those new or explained CTD developments that came at the end of your remarks, sir, but rather than throw ourselves out of operation, maybe I could stick with the planned approach I had, because I have kind of got that down at the end.

LISTNUM 1 \l 185               I want to talk about the market and how you define it and how big you think it is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 186               I want to talk a bit about your business plan ‑‑ revenues and expenses.

LISTNUM 1 \l 187               I want to talk, of course, about programming.  Some of it I don't understand, and it's probably just my weak math skills or something, but I get some of the things confused as to hours of this and hours of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 188               And I want to talk to you a bit about balanced programming.  I noticed your overall commitment to adhere to the policy, which is comforting, but I am unclear about your definition of "balance" in some of the specific programs that you outlined in your supplementary brief.

LISTNUM 1 \l 189               Then I want to talk to you a bit about Canadian content development, or Canadian talent development, depending on which side of the last decision you are standing; and some of the new things you added today; and a breakdown of some of the bigger figures, such as the $4.8 million.

LISTNUM 1 \l 190               I think you will find it pretty straightforward.  I hope you will.  I don't think there are any trick questions, unless you have a guilty conscience, of course.  But you guys are probably better at solving that problem than I am.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 191               COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I am going to quote from the last sentence on page 1 of your supplementary brief.  I don't think you need to go to it, but there is nothing to stop you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 192               You say:

"Based on our discussions with these communities..."

‑‑ by which, I assume, you mean Calgary and Edmonton, obviously:

"...our unique brand of religious programming would be enthusiastically welcomed by these communities."

LISTNUM 1 \l 193               I note that you have an awful lot of supporters, so I am not approaching this question in a vacuum, but how do you come to that conclusion?

LISTNUM 1 \l 194               Did you do any market analysis?  Did you collect any empirical data?  Did you have any experts out there?  I couldn't find any on the file, but there may be something that I missed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 195               Was there some market research done to come to that conclusion?

LISTNUM 1 \l 196               MR. GRAY:  Not the type of market research that you would expect normally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 197               I have contacted the religious programmers that make up a good deal of the Christian part of our schedule, so they are there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 198               Alberta is a very major part of their donor basis, and, of course, religious programs depend upon a donor base of support for their airtime, and, as a fully commercial station, we depend on that airtime revenue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 199               Most of those that I have talked to, they have a very large number of supporters in Alberta, and specifically in the cities of Calgary and Edmonton, and they would welcome the opportunity to be able to broadcast on a religious station in these markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1100              So we know, just from evidence from all of our various clients, that there definitely is a marketplace for all of these various programs, and they would love to see more exposure of them in these areas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1101              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So these programs are being watched now in Edmonton and Calgary, but not by conventional television?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1102              Is that the only change?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1103              MR. GRAY:  To some degree they are being watched here.  They are carried on CTS in Ontario, and therefore they are available, to some degree, on satellite ‑‑ DTH.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1104              But the fact is that, even before CTS existed, there were long‑term ministries, which have a base of many thousands of supporters in these areas.  Therefore, they would like to see the programming that they are supporting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1105              From the religious program side, we do know ‑‑ and I do have letters from various major ministries ‑‑ that they would like to be purchasing time on CTS Alberta stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1106              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I don't want to sound irreverent in any way, but I am also looking at a business case here, so excuse some of the language.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1107              Are you saying that they see a market here, and a lot of churches and a lot of religious interest, so, from their experience, they assume that this is where their programs will be watched?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1108              Or, are you saying that they are being watched ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1109              I thought your first statement was that some of the people you buy your block programming from are getting good reaction to their programming already from this area.  If they are, how are these people getting this programming?  And, if they are getting it, why do they need it twice?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1110              Is that a fair question?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1111              MR. GRAY:  What I was saying is that these people purchase airtime now on CTS, and they have expressed to me, "When can we buy time in Alberta, because we want to buy time on your stations in Alberta."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1112              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So you are relying on their interest in expanding the market, if I can put it that way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1113              I don't know how else to put it ‑‑ expanding their viewer base.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1114              That's really what you are relying on.  You are relying on their expertise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1115              They, somehow, have looked at this market and said:  We are not there now, but it's a good place to be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1116              MR. GRAY:  That is part of our income.  That is from the religious block side.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1117              We also have over 1,100 letters of support, which, of course, you are aware of.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1118              I would like to ask Glenn Stewart, our Director of Marketing for the commercial side, to speak to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1119              MR. STEWART:  Commissioner Langford, it is a two‑pronged process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1120              I think what I would like you to understand from the outset is that we are really here before you today because we are mandate driven.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1121              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I'm sorry, what was that word?  What drives you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1122              MR. STEWART:  Mandate.  We are mandate driven.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1123              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1124              MR. STEWART:  Insofar as we believe that to bring the Ontario experience to Alberta and be able to offer Albertans locally produced religious programming is the centrepoint to our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1125              It is very true that we have a goodly number of block programmers who desire to expand and put programming into Alberta on our stations, if we are licensed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1126              Beyond that, there is, of course, also a commercial component to our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1127              It is our conjecture that the markets are certainly strong and can support a station like CTS in both Edmonton and Calgary, given the fact that, due to the nature of our service, our commercial component is only a very small portion of what we are trying to do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1128              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  With the possible exception of the representatives from CHUM, I don't think you would get much objection from this particular crowd that the market is strong, but it doesn't necessarily follow that it will be strong for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1129              Here are the folks from OMNI Television, who will be making an application somewhat later, probably tomorrow or this afternoon, about ethnic television ‑‑ third language programming.  If they were going to pitch all of their programming at Mandarin speakers, and there were only 1,100 Mandarin speakers in Calgary and Edmonton, they would have their work cut out, I would suggest, trying to make a business case for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1130              It would make 1,100 people very happy, and we are, to a certain extent, at the CRTC, in the happiness business.  There is no doubt about it.  But we just don't know how long they could put bread on the table with 1,100 subscribers, and trying to attract advertising.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1131              They are a little luckier than you, I suppose.  They have some demographic studies, as does their competitor, showing who speaks what languages at home, and mother tongue and whatnot.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1132              Anyway, I don't want to drag the analogy out to the point where it takes over the point, but do you have anything like that which will enable me, then, to look at your business case and say, "That makes sense"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1133              Okay, you have 1,100 letters, and you have some ministry, and you have some people who make programs who would like to expand their market, but, to them, that could be just economies of scale.  They are already making the programs, so anything they sell here is a little more cream in their coffee.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1134              I am sorry to go on so long, but do you have any empirical data here or market research, or is it just a good feeling you have about this place?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1135              MR. GRAY:  Chair ‑‑ or Commissioner ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1136              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I like the Chairman part.  Go with it.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1137              MR. GRAY:  Your turn may come, I don't know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1138              The latest Statistics Canada figures show that, for those who declare a religion, Christianity is 91 percent in Calgary, 92 percent in Edmonton, and 94 percent in Alberta as a whole, compared with the Greater Toronto Area at 81, and 88 percent in Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1139              So even as successful as we are in Ontario ‑‑ and we are successful in Ontario ‑‑ there are a greater number of people who declare a religious affiliation ‑‑ a religious faith.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1140              I would like to ask Janine Maxwell, from our Board of Directors, to address this question, as well as Drew.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1141              Drew is from Alberta and has been very much involved with me in meetings with the independent producers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1142              MR. MARTIN:  I was born and raised in Alberta, and I have been involved as Vice‑President of AMPIA.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1143              We spent a lot of time visiting with independent producers, as well as members of the Board of Directors for AMPIA, and the Broadcast Committee, as well as members who are writers, directors, service providers and facility providers in the province, and one of the things that is really clear is that, foundational to this province and its success, are family values.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1144              In fact, I was in Alan Brooks' office the other day at AMPIA, and when he introduced me to the new Director of Marketing for Alberta Films, he said, "This is Drew, and he's family."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1145              That is really the environment of the industry here.  It is very unique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1146              The people here have had tons of opportunity to leave this province, but they stay here to work because of their passion for really having their families raised with a strong sense of community and because of the values that exist here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1147              These are the people that we talked with ‑‑ probably over 85 different representatives, who do business here all the time, who actually have a passionate commitment to the same values that we share.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1148              We have the letters that have been supporting us, which I am sure you have read.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1149              Perhaps Janine could read one, as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1150              They all resonate with the same kind of heart that is akin to the CTS approach.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1151              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I have read the letters, and the passion is there, but there are 1,100 letters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1152              I am not suggesting that you have to go out and find enough letters to make your business plan work, but sometimes people do a market research study ‑‑ and I don't want to beat it to death.  You don't have anything like that, but you have considerable experience, and I guess ‑‑ I will make your case for you ‑‑ you are willing to risk some money on this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1153              But the case on our side, in case you are wondering why, is, first of all, we like our broadcasters to succeed in Canada.  That is something we like, because we like the notion of Canadian broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1154              And we like to use the scarce resources of the airwaves in the best way possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1155              And if you only have ‑‑ I know this is not a fact, but if you had 1,100 viewers, that would trouble us, because we wouldn't be able to see you being able to make a business case.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1156              We are also very much aware of how successful you have been in other places, and we are aware of the statistics from Statistics Canada that you quoted.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1157              I really wanted to know whether there was anything more empirical than that, any market research, done either by you or by your programmers, or by associations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1158              You do project, though ‑‑ to get back to the reality of your application ‑‑ on page 14 of your application you project a 2 percent share in Year 1, rising to 2.7 in Year 7.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1159              Again, you base that, I guess, on what you call the demonstrable pent‑up demand.  But how do you project it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1160              How do you turn the enthusiasm of 1,100 people, some StatsCan statistics, which are really on people's deepest religious beliefs, whether they are practising those religions ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1161              I can open up any issue of Maclean's magazine ‑‑ or pick and choose any over the last five years, and they will say:  Attendance at church is down.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1162              So maybe they are calling themselves Christian, but they are not practising at this particular moment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1163              How do you turn that into that kind of hard statistic?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1164              How do you turn what you are telling me here this morning, this kind of feeling that is out there, into exact figures, moving from 2 percent to 2.7 percent over seven years?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1165              How do you do that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1166              MR. STEWART:  Commissioner Langford, while we didn't do an exhaustive research study ‑‑ being a small independent broadcaster, it just wasn't something we felt we ‑‑ I don't want to say needed to do.  It would have been nice to have done it, but it is something that we chose not to do because we had all of the other empirical data and all of the other knowledge from the ministry broadcasters, from Reverend Mainse for 100 Huntley Street, in his example.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1167              I came to the 2 percent share of tuning, really, based on the Ontario model, the premise being that if we can achieve, roughly, a 2 percent share in Ontario, which is a mature, saturated marketplace, surely we can achieve that in burgeoning markets like Edmonton and Calgary, in a province that perhaps would be even more welcoming to a service like ours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1168              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Was the Ontario marketplace saturated with religious broadcasting when you got there?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1169              I would assume that the same people watching Playboy Television aren't riveted to the screens on Sunday morning to watch your show ‑‑ although you never know, guilt does funny things to people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1170              When you say a saturated market in Toronto, and a kind of wide open market here, what are you building those phrases on?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1171              MR. STEWART:  In part on the number of stations, the number of major broadcasters in the marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1172              Eight years ago, when we debuted in Ontario, we didn't yet have a Toronto 1, for example, and we still managed to do quite well and meet our business objectives and our business plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1173              And it's based on the very nature of our service.  We have a little bit of commercial revenue, and we have our block revenue, and the balance between the two coexists in a way that we can fulfil our objectives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1174              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But there is a station in Lethbridge right now.  It is, obviously, not going to just go away if you come here, and they are being carried in much of the same area that you want to be carried in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1175              They may not have exactly the same carriage rights that you have, but they have a certain market and they have some followers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1176              It is my experience ‑‑ and we will hear from some cable people later, and we can ask them, but it is my experience that broadcasting distribution undertakings are very loath to take stuff off that's popular.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1177              Did that have an impact, the existence of the incumbent operator?  Did that have an impact on your projection of a 2 percent market share in Year 1, rising to 2.7?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1178              MR. STEWART:  From a commercial perspective, it is not a factor, because they are non‑commercial.  They don't solicit ‑‑ or they don't sell advertising.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1179              So that part of the equation is not in the mix.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1180              Perhaps I could ask Mr. Gray to speak further to that point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1181              MR. GRAY:  We don't have a lot of figures from the ministries, but Day of Discovery, which is a well known, long‑time television ministry, gave me a letter stating that they have 19,000 interested viewers in Edmonton, and 18,000 in Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1182              Their database showed that's how many viewers they have who are interested in Crossroads Television carrying their program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1183              From the base of support, we know that Crossroads, for example, has many thousands of supporters in Alberta, and other ministries as well.  They are a little bit reticent, I suppose, to tell you how many thousands they have, but that's just a sampling.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1184              So we know that there is a great interest in this kind of programming by a large number of people, not just a small ‑‑ the 1,100 who wrote the letters, that's for sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1185              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  What was the name of that ministry again, or that program?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1186              MR. GRAY:  It's called Day of Discovery ‑‑ radio Bible class ministries out of Grand Rapids, Michigan.  They do half‑hour weekly programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1187              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So they have 18,000 in one city, and 19,000 in another, which they have in their database?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1188              MR. GRAY:  Yes, that's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1189              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Where are these people watching this show now?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1190              Where are they getting it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1191              What's their source?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1192              What's the connection between the programmer and the natives of Alberta?  What's the connection?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1193              MR. GRAY:  How do they already know about the program?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1194              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes, and why do they need you if they are already getting it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1195              Don't feel bad, it's just ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1196              MR. GRAY:  They may be aware that, on average, 25 percent of Canadians have DTH; therefore, 25 percent ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1197              I am not sure what the number is in this area, but they would have the ability to see it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1198              Of course, the other example is that we offer prime time for Christian ministries, and other programs that are non‑Christian, that simply isn't available on normal conventional television.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1199              So I think that the fact that our program schedule is ‑‑ that we have a different reason for being, that reason being family values and faith programming, we do programming within prime time which just doesn't happen on other stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1200              So they may well be on a local station on Sunday morning, but they are not there in prime time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1201              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I am still unsure, but I am not investing the money either, so I don't have to be as worried about it perhaps as you do, and you don't look worried at all.  So we will leave that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1202              Let's go and have a little look at money.  I want to look at some of the figures of revenues that you have projected.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1203              I am referring to the charts on pages 9 to 12 of your application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1204              You filed a lot of stuff in confidence.  I don't want to get into that.  You can make a slip and, before you know it, some confidential information has come out, and we respect your desire for confidentiality, so I am only wanting to look at the projected figures that you have put in the application which is on the public record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1205              You talk there about national ad sales being projected at $770,000 in Year 1, rising to just over $1 million in Year 7.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1206              I would ask you to go back and help me with this.  Somehow you have come to the basis that you will get 2 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1207              Let's just deal with Year 1, it will be easier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1208              Then, from that 2 percent, I guess you have done some sort of formula to say:  With a 2 percent market share, our ads will sell at so much, so we will get $770,000 in national sales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1209              Can you put that together for me in some sort of narrative form?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1210              How do you work that number out?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1211              MR. STEWART:  Commissioner Langford, I arrived at these figures, basically, taking our Ontario experience in Year 1 through Year 8, to get my seven‑year plan coming forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1212              I basically took our Ontario experience and did the pro‑rations to the Edmonton and Calgary markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1213              I researched the cost per point in the markets ‑‑ this is going back 20 months now, so they may be a tad bit higher at this point, as my colleagues at the other stations have indicated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1214              This is a costing that is achievable and realistic, and it will serve our business plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1215              I would like to assure you that they are realistic, perhaps a little conservative now, in terms of it being two years later.  Both Calgary and Edmonton are stronger markets today than they were when I started these projections.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1216              In fact, if I think back to the Commission's decision when CHUM was denied their applications prior to buying out the Craig stations, the Commission itself said that the economic indicators were that the markets were turning and coming back, and that they would be stronger, but perhaps just not strong enough at that point in time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1217              Two years later, I would respectfully submit that they have arrived and the markets are that strong today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1218              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But that doesn't necessarily mean they are going to come to you, and I think that is a point that you must consider.  You have to have a business side of your head here, as well as a programming side and an overall mission side.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1219              I guess what I am looking at is, tell me about Ontario.  Tell me something that helps me take ‑‑ and I am going back to my first point.  We have no empirical data, but we have come to a notion, based on somebody's databank in Michigan, or wherever it was, who may not even have a show up here.  Or, if he does, he only has it on DTH.  We have moved that figure to a 2 percent market share, and based on that 2 percent market share, we have moved to $770,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1220              Tell me what is happening in Ontario.  Tell me how this makes sense, how this progression works.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1221              MR. STEWART:  Commissioner, in Ontario, as I stated earlier, in a very mature market, a crowded marketplace, CTS was able to garner a share of the advertising dollar, for a number of reasons, one of which, and not the least of which, is that there is a hunger for values and family programming that isn't readily available.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1222              Some may call our programming old, but it is ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1223              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Some may call it what?  Sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1224              MR. STEWART:  Some may call it old programming, as opposed to current ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1225              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  The Fonz, old?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1226              Surely you jest!

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1227              MR. STEWART:  The Fonz will be timeless.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1228              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I hope so, for you.  The hair is a little weird, but, anyway, fair enough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1229              MR. STEWART:  But the fact remains, from an entertainment value and entertainment standpoint, our programming is very safe, very family friendly.  That is part of what we will bring to this province, and these cities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1230              And there is a market for that.  Advertisers are quite comfortable seeking out that kind of programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1231              It doesn't deliver big ratings, but they will buy it nonetheless.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1232              In fact, you will rarely find a media buyer putting through a plan that says:  Don't buy Happy Days.  Don't buy Little House on the Prairie.  Don't buy Seventh Heaven.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1233              But you will find a lot of media buyers coming down and saying:  Don't buy Montel.  Don't by this show or that show.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1234              It's an everyday occurrence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1235              I would submit that the nature of our entertainment programming, which complements our ministry programming, has a comfortable fit for the advertising community, and we don't represent big dollars to their buys.  We are often an add‑on or a top‑up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1236              I used to go around in the early days and joke with the media buyers that, if you get one preemption from the big guys, that would fund a campaign on CTS for the week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1237              It is in that context that we know we can get a certain degree of business, and while we don't have any advertising agencies intervening on our behalf, as others do, the fact is, they indicate that the market has a need for another television station, and more commercial inventory is much needed in this market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1238              They are both markets where demand outstrips supply, and CTS, in that context, will fit in quite nicely, and won't disrupt the existing broadcasters, because we are not talking about the kind of money or the kind of rating points that will disrupt the marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1239              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I don't want to be pejorative, but it sounds a little fuzzy to me.  I hope it works, but I don't see a nexus between numbers and dollars here.  I can't see this as a business plan.  It seems to me to be a notion that a lot of people will like this, and then advertisers will say, "Okay, there are enough people."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1240              Surely there is a connection between the number of eyeballs ‑‑ they used to call them "bums in the seats" ‑‑ and when Ford Motor Company thinks, "Gee, let's see what they think of our new pickup truck," or something like that.  "Let's put a little bit of money on that channel."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1241              Let's go back to the OMNI example.  If there is nobody in town who speaks Mandarin, and they are putting up Mandarin, chances are good, I would think, that the advertisers might just walk right by them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1242              You are a niche marketer, by your own admission.  You have used the word "niche".  I just don't ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1243              I don't want to beat this to death.  If you don't have the numbers, you don't have the numbers.  But, I must say, I find it difficult to trace.  I find it hard to trace myself from the kind of no study to the 2 percent to the $770,000.  I don't see the logical connections there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1244              If you do, then there is your answer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1245              I thought, maybe, you could tell me ‑‑ unless it is so confidential that you can't ‑‑ what your market share is in one of your other places, such as Ottawa, or something like that, and what kind of advertising you are getting there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1246              I don't want you to give away confidential information, but is there some way you can make a connection from some hard experience like that, which would lead me to believe that your business plan is on more sound footing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1247              I'm not saying that it is not on sound footing, but I can't find the sound foundation here.  I have to go on a lot of assumptions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1248              MR. STEWART:  Commissioner, I wasn't with CTS in the early‑early days of planning on the first round, some 10 years ago.  I joined the company very soon thereafter.  The original business plan ‑‑ really, what CTS is today, operationally, in terms of advertising revenue, is nothing compared to what it initially was going to be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1249              I can't speak to the degree of research that was done at that point in time, but it was, to some degree, faulty, and we created a different business approach very early on that relied, primarily, on national advertising, as opposed to a very large percentage of retail advertising, and very quickly gained acceptance in the advertising realm, if you will, and we did get the dollars coming our way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1250              They weren't at big rates, but it was certainly enough to fill our business plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1251              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  Look, that's your answer, and you will have another kick at the can later.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1252              If you want to kick this around among yourselves ‑‑ if you have something more now, I will take it, obviously, but if, later on, in one of the later phases, you want to bring something else to my attention ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1253              We are not a court of law here, we don't all have our evidentiary rules.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1254              If you want to come back with something to clear up that point ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1255              MR. STEWART:  I think that Mr. Gray would like to say something.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1256              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1257              MR. GRAY:  To add to what Glenn was saying, the breakdown of our revenue is that approximately 55 percent of our total revenue is from the sale of religious block time, and just under 40 percent from total commercial revenues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1258              So the part that Glenn is talking about is Happy Days and Little House on the Prairie and Seventh Heaven.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1259              The block programming, which has been under my area, is the ministries; and, yes, they are concerned about the number of viewers, but they are concerned about the response they get ‑‑ the viewers writing in, calling in for the free books they are offering, or donating to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1260              So they judge their success by the response they get.  Obviously, the response has been good, and that is why they are all on our station in Ontario, and virtually all of them have said, "When are you going to be ‑‑ "

LISTNUM 1 \l 1261              They have already asked me, "When can we sign a contract for Alberta?"

LISTNUM 1 \l 1262              I said, "We have to get a licence first."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1263              So there is interest, because they see their support base wanting it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1264              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Are some of them selling to the Lethbridge station right now?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1265              MR. GRAY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1266              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  What will happen then?  Will they go on both services, or will they switch to you and leave poor old Lethbridge out there with nothing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1267              MR. GRAY:  That is something we don't know, but there is that possibility.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1268              My experience is that ministries like to have more than one exposure in a market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1269              That is just something that we don't know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1270              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Do you have any in your Ontario experience that are on another service?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1271              MR. GRAY:  Vision.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1272              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Some are on Vision?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1273              MR. GRAY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1274              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And they are happy to be on both?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1275              MR. GRAY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1276              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  The block sales, you sort of touched on the idea that these people are kind of keen to sign up.  Do you have some ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1277              I wonder how you come up with the figure of, Year 1, $1,130,000, going to Year 7, $1,540,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1278              Those are pretty exact figures.  Have you had contract talks with these people?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1279              This isn't a trick question.  It is not an offence to have contracts.  I don't jump up and go, "Ah‑ha!  Caught you, you bounder," but I would like to know how you get these figures so exact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1280              Have you had discussions with them so that you know what they will pay, pretty well?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1281              MR. GRAY:  We based it on our Ontario experience, and then pro‑rating it into the Alberta population base.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1282              Matt, our Comptroller, could speak to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1283              But, certainly, all of the people that I have spoken with ‑‑ and I have had contact with them over the last eight years ‑‑ there is interest by all of them in the Alberta market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1284              Matt, do you want to speak to that, first of all?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1285              Then, Drew has also been speaking with local ministries.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1286              MR. HILLIER:  Commissioner, from our discussions with block time buyers, we found that Alberta would be, possibly, at 35 to 40 percent of the regional Ontario rate, and we have used the low end of that, the 35 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1287              Basically, it is over the first three years of our regional Ontario experience, as a regional broadcaster there.  That is why you get the exactness.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1288              You can blame me for that.  As an accountant, I tend to get down to the zeroes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1289              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I don't blame anybody, I like exactitude.  It makes my life easier.  It's the lack of exactitude on some of the other numbers that has me a bit concerned ‑‑ not concerned, but kind of a little lost.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1290              You are saying that, generally, they are looking at paying you for their time on the air somewhere in the neighbourhood of 35 to 45 percent of what they pay you in Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1291              Is that right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1292              MR. HILLIER:  Thirty‑five to 40.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1293              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Forty percent.  I'm sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1294              How does this work?  They say to you, "Okay, we think you are going to get," let's say, "2 percent in Year 1," or something like that, and that is, in raw numbers, a lot less than 2 percent of Ontario, "So we are going to pay you 35 percent."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1295              Do you have a little meeting at the end of the year, where you say, "You were low.  We got 4 percent.  We would like more money"?  Or, do you lock yourself into seven years and, therefore, those numbers are what they are, and there is no hope to change them or improve them?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1296              MR. GRAY:  Commissioner, these are annual contracts that we negotiate with the program buyers, so we review them annually.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1297              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So, if it turned out to be a rosier situation, you would be perhaps suggesting that they might want to put a little more money on the table.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1298              MR. GRAY:  We would have an easier time getting an increase from them, let's put it that way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1299              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  That's good to know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1300              Canadian sales of programs, $130,000 in Year 1 in revenues, rising to $160,000 in Year 7, if I have those numbers correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1301              Where do you get those numbers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1302              MR. HILLIER:  Commissioner, those are based on the potential sales of our local programming to syndication opportunities, and possibly some co‑production revenue in some of our Christian programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1303              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So this isn't a duplication of what you are already selling in Ontario, this is calculated on the brand new programs you are going to make out here in Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1304              MR. HILLIER:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1305              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1306              Are there any other sources of revenue?  Do you get donations or memberships, or anything like that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1307              MR. GRAY:  No, we don't, Commissioner.  We are a not for profit station, but we are fully commercial.  We are not a charity, so our revenue is virtually all from the sale of airtime, and a bit of co‑production.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1308              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I see.  What about shows that are made by your ‑‑ I don't know whether to call it a parent company or what.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1309              What is CCCI or CCSI, whichever it is ‑‑ I don't know, but there are a lot of "C's" in there ‑‑ that makes 100 Huntley Street, for example?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1310              Do you have a special arrangement with them?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1311              MR. GRAY:  We always ask our Chairman to explain this one, because it is difficult to explain.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1312              MR. VANSTONE:  Commissioner, CCCI is a charity, and it does have a Christian mission, and 100 Huntley Street is its flagship program.  It produces that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1313              It was the founding impetus for CTS, but CTS is an independent organization.  It was designed that way when Reverend Mainse first conceived it, so that each of the ministries would be on a common footing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1314              CCCI pays CTS for its airtime, the same way that another ministry would pay for its airtime.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1315              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Is the parent company CCCI?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1316              It's not really.  I read through your corporate papers.  It's a related company, in a sense.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1317              MR. VANSTONE:  It's a related company, it's not a parent company.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1318              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Let's simplify this, if you don't mind.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1319              They make 100 Huntley Street.  Then they buy time ‑‑ let's say that it's two years from now.  They would be buying time on your Calgary and Edmonton stations, and they would pay CTS‑Calgary and Edmonton for that time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1320              Would they then solicit donations from people?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1321              "They" being 100 Huntley Street.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1322              MR. VANSTONE:  100 Huntley Street has a series of stations that it is carried on, not just CTS.  Part of their mission is funded through donations, but that is quite independent of CTS, and doesn't form part of CTS's revenue base, other than the airtime purchased.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1323              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Is there a connection between the amount of donations or revenue ‑‑ I don't know what to call it ‑‑ revenue coming into 100 Huntley Street which would, then, impact on the price Huntley would pay for the time it buys on CTS's various stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1324              MR. VANSTONE:  It is quite independent.  CCCI's price for purchasing time for 100 Huntley Street on CTS is the same as another ministry's purchase price would be.  There is no relationship between income generated and the purchase price of CTS airtime.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1325              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So you set the figure, and you hope you do better, and they hope they are happy with the figure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1326              MR. VANSTONE:  We believe that we are a delivery mechanism for their program, which makes it successful for us to sell them airtime in the same manner we sell airtime to other ministries.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1327              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And you will be financing the start‑up costs, or CCSI?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1328              MR. VANSTONE:  No, we will be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1329              CCCI ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1330              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  CCCI ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1331              MR. VANSTONE:  Just to make it easy, they are all "C's".

LISTNUM 1 \l 1332              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay, that's good.  The other one isn't, but anyway.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1333              Well, we have CRTC.  We have our share of "C's".

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1334              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So you are putting out $5 million in financing for this venture, to get it started.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1335              MR. VANSTONE:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1336              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  How does that work?  Is there an interest rate on that, or is it interest free?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1337              I see interest payments in your projected expenses.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1338              MR. VANSTONE:  It is from people who believe in the mission that we have who provide funding.  They are accorded an interest rate in the same way as a conventional broadcaster would accord shareholders a dividend rate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1339              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So these are the trust holders that I read about?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1340              MR. VANSTONE:  Yes, that's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1341              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Take me through that, if you don't mind.  It's interesting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1342              You would track, I guess, donations from people, or some interest.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1343              Tell me when I get it wrong.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1344              How do you collect the $5 million to put out in the trust?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1345              MR. VANSTONE:  We offer the certificates to people who are interested in seeing Christian television advance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1346              They are people who support the mission.  They are people who have supported 100 Huntley Street over a period of time.  They are people who have supported other ministries over a period of time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1347              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Say I am one of those people.  Would I buy a unit of some sort of this trust?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1348              MR. VANSTONE:  You would buy an investment certificate, yes, and it would accord you a rate of interest.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1349              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  What kind of rate of interest?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1350              Am I allowed to ask that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1351              MR. VANSTONE:  I believe that the current rate of interest is approximately 7 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1352              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That's not bad.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1353              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I am thinking of my RRSP.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1354              MR. VANSTONE:  It's an excellent investment, because it combines both an interest rate and the foundational benefit of the mission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1355              I would recommend it to you, sir.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1356              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I am thinking seriously about it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1357              THE CHAIRPERSON:  You will have to check with the Commissioner of Ethics.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1358              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Good point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1359              How could he be against God?  I mean, he is the Commissioner of Ethics.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1360              You have put together a bunch of interested people, and you have the $5 million, and then that goes out to the start‑up costs.  Why don't I see the interest rate dropping over the years?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1361              When I look at your chart, it seems to be going up, up, up.  Wouldn't they be starting to pay some of this off, or is it an interest‑only mortgage?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1362              How does it work?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1363              MR. VANSTONE:  We have separated the certificates ‑‑ internally, not externally ‑‑ between Calgary and Edmonton and the Ontario service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1364              The Ontario service is starting to pay down.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1365              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It's coming down now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1366              MR. VANSTONE:  It has come through its maturity, and it is coming down.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1367              And we have a program to eliminate that.  We have a program to eliminate the Alberta start‑up costs at the end of the first licence term.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1368              The nature of CTS, as non‑charity, non‑profit, means that when the resources have met the station's requirements, the excess will go back into programming.  That becomes a critical point ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1369              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Right.  That's pretty clear from your application, that any excess goes in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1370              Although, if I read it correctly, by Year 7 there is a million dollar overage on the revenue side, isn't there?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1371              I am going by memory now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1372              Why isn't that going straight back?  Why doesn't it always come to zero?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1373              MR. VANSTONE:  The fact is that there are requirements, from capital requirements to the repayment of the certificate holders, and we need to follow through on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1374              When there is no other obligation, it will find its way back into additional programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1375              We have made the local program commitments, and that has priority on the way through.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1376              Then, if you like, the excess through that period of time goes to meet the other needs, including the transition to digital.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1377              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So you are saving a little bit for a rainy day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1378              MR. VANSTONE:  Yes, the amortization of the fixed assets will provide for the recovery of some of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1379              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It is as difficult for a Commissioner to understand some of this stuff as it is for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1380              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  To put it in terms you might understand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1381              MR. VANSTONE:  The business plan is not quite the wing and the prayer that you offer it to be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1382              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  No, I can see that there is a sound foundation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1383              This is my last curiosity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1384              In reading about these trusts, I understand that some people, at the end of them, say, "Don't give me back the money.  That's my contribution."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1385              That's the feeling I got.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1386              MR. VANSTONE:  That has been true with respect to the ministry ‑‑ CCCI.  CTS is not in the position to accept a donation.  That is not part of our role.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1387              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I see.  So, then, it is just between you and Revenue Canada how you work that out, further down the line ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1388              MR. VANSTONE:  It would go back into programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1389              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Even at the CCCI level?  It would go into programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1390              MR. VANSTONE:  No.  CTS is not in the position to give a receipt ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1391              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I know that, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1392              MR. VANSTONE:  ‑‑ to anyone who has a certificate overage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1393              If they have a certificate that they want to provide to charity, they can give it to CCCI or they can give it to another charity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1394              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  What happens with it then?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1395              MR. VANSTONE:  It would become redeemed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1396              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It would be redeemed.  I see.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1397              And that money would then go off for further work through related ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1398              MR. VANSTONE:  Wherever it went.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1399              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1400              I want to ask one more question ‑‑ and I don't want to use up too much more of your time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1401              I think it's on page 10 of your application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1402              I believe that I had trouble there, on the expense side, finding out where your employee expenses are.  Salaries, in other words.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1403              It just didn't jump out at me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1404              I assume that some of it is under "Sales", and some of it is under "Administration" and "General", but I had trouble trying to figure out what you had set aside for salaries, and how many employees you might have in this operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1405              I didn't see anything like that here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1406              Maybe it's here, but I just didn't see it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1407              I apologize if it's my mistake.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1408              MR. HILLIER:  Commissioner, it was probably hard to find because there are not that many additional employees.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1409              Most of our programming will be through the independent production community, so, as far as local office employees are concerned ‑‑ station manager, some administrative support, and some technical support.  Three employees in each city.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1410              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Can you make me a list, before we are finished here in the next couple of days, of those three employees in each city, and approximately what you have set aside for salaries?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1411              MR. HILLIER:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1412              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1413              One of the things we have learned coming to Alberta is that everybody wants a piece of the market, and you can't blame them, but it's hard to pay people here.  They all want to go off and be roughnecks up in Fort McMurray, or something like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1414              Even Tim Hortons.  If you own a Tim Hortons franchise, you had better be up 24 hours a day to pour your own coffee, because no one will work for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1415              Maybe you could prepare a little list of the jobs and the salaries, to give me some idea of whether that looks like a logical business plan.  I would be grateful if you could get that to us ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1416              Would later today or tomorrow morning be doable?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1417              MR. HILLIER:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1418              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It shouldn't be a long list.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1419              Let's turn to programming, and we will see if we can wrap this up.  You have been very patient with me, and I don't want to hold you here all day, but I do have some questions about programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1420              Really, overall, I saw what you had on the television here, and I think you were featuring what is always our preoccupation with balance, and I take my hat off to you, you covered that one pretty well in that film, but I still don't understand something, which may tell you more about me than I would care to have known.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1421              I don't understand "family values" and "family friendly" as kind of a mission statement or a description of programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1422              I guess I just don't understand ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1423              All right, I understand about two little kids going around and talking to everybody and trying to figure out why they should talk to mom and dad, if I got that correctly up there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1424              And I understand that the Fonz is unlikely to offend anyone, except by his hair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1425              But I don't understand what you are selling.  Is it safety?  Is that what you are saying?  There will be no pornography, no obscenities, only good messages?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1426              What does this mean?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1427              MR. GRAY:  I would like Reverend David Mainse to comment, but in a brief nutshell, you are right, the kind of programming is programming with the ethical and moral values that would parallel the ministry type of programming that is on the station from various faiths.  Whether it is Jewish, Buddhist or Christian, there are ethical and moral values, and we want programming that will not offend those values.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1428              David, I think you will have some things that you would like to say.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1429              REV. MAINSE:  Thank you, Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1430              Back in 1975, I launched a study into violence in children's television.  We got a LIP grant, if any of you are old enough to remember that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1431              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Was that the Judy LaMarsh stuff in Ontario?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1432              REV. MAINSE:  No, it was federal.  The LIP grant was federal.  It was a Pierre Trudeau idea.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1433              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Was it LaMarsh who ran that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1434              REV. MAINSE:  No, LaMarsh had a commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1435              In fact, she said that if she had read our ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1436              It was parallel to ours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1437              She said that if she had read our study in advance, it could have saved the people of Ontario a lot of money in her commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1438              The commission was very valuable.  I want to assure you that I believe that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1439              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Send your donations in.  You may be living on them soon.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1440              REV. MAINSE:  Let me go back to your statement about considering an investment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1441              A former co‑chair of the CRTC, Rhéal Therien, in fact, was a supporter of our ministry for a number of years ‑‑ the late Rhéal Therien.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1442              Anyhow, he was the one that brought me to appear before his committee on serving the underserved areas of Canada.  Out of that came the invitation from the Commission to begin the process of making an application for such a station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1443              We were the first ones to ever do that, before Vision was licensed and so on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1444              But back in 1975 we did this study.  The Hon. Jeanne Sauvé was Minister of Communications at the time.  We presented the study to her, and a petition with over 50,000 names.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1445              When she became Governor General, as we all know, the late Right Hon. Jeanne Sauvé suffered with cancer, and passed away ‑‑ an untimely death for a marvellous woman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1446              I was serving as a judge in the International Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion.  We had offered the prize to the Chief Rabbi of Great Britain and the Commonwealth for his work with the Refusniks and on medical ethics.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1447              He came to the Convocation Hall in Toronto for his acceptance, and Jeanne Sauvé was our special speaker.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1448              We were together in the Green Room at Convocation Hall before going onto the platform, and she said, "David, when I was Minister of Communications, you presented me with this study from McMaster University," headed up by perhaps the leading marketing research person in North America at the time, and she said, "I put away all kinds of studies and petitions and so on, but yours I could not take off my shelf."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1449              She already knew that she had cancer ‑‑ and this is a serious moment in a person's life.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1450              She said, "I want to tell you that I agonized over my inability as Minister of Communications to change that format," if you will, "of increasing violence year after year, impacting on our children."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1451              She looked at me very intently, and she said, "David, you can do it.  You can provide an alternative.  You can produce programming."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1452              We began to produce a program called Circle Square, which has morphed into the largest summer camping program in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1453              We have done all kinds of ‑‑ CTV carries every week, and it has for years now, our Kingdom Adventure series, the TQ programs daily, as well as many other children's programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1454              I took Jeanne Sauvé's exhortation to produce an alternative, because she felt powerless to rid ‑‑ those 14,000 murders that children, by the time they get out of high school, have witnessed on television, and things like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1455              That's what we are all about.  We are about an alternative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1456              One of the reasons ‑‑ forgive me for taking so much time, but the reason we want to say it over the air, rather than, simply, as we have now, through Bell ExpressVu and StarChoice, covering other areas of Canada outside the primary CTS coverage area, is that, in Edmonton ‑‑ here is an actual marketing research figure, Mr. Commissioner, from Media Stats ‑‑ between Edmonton and Calgary, there are 283,000 people who do not have access to cable or satellite.  That is the population of London, Ontario, or the population of Halifax.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1457              They don't have cable.  They have not been able to afford it.  They may be at the bottom of the scale, or the income level, or welfare people, who have a little, old, beat‑up TV with rabbit ears.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1458              We want these people to have the kind of programming that is uplifting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1459              That is why, for example, all five chiefs of the native bands in the Calgary area sent letters, which are in the file, urging us to have a television station with the kinds of values we represent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1460              I urge the Commission ‑‑ I am retired now, so I am just the old boy sitting in the back bench, but ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1461              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You must have been something else when you were going full tilt.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1462              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That is very eloquent, and I appreciate it.  I do.  And I understand where you are coming from.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1463              I want to look at a little bit of the possible dark side of this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1464              I am sorry to always be bringing up the other side, but you guys do a great job of beating the drum, you don't need me for that, so I have to go on the other side and ask, "Is there a problem?"

LISTNUM 1 \l 1465              I don't mean it in any way to be accusatory, I just know ‑‑ we all know that there can be a dark side to this family values thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1466              "Family friendly", I don't think there is a dark side to that, unless you want to watch murder on TV, I suppose; but family values sometimes, particularly in our neighbouring nation to the south, are equated with some very, very strict conservative views, and some of these views can be very, very hurtful to certain aspects of that population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1467              History is full of it.  I don't have to give you a history lesson.  Whether it is homosexually, or whether it is women sometimes, for goodness' sake ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1468              Maybe this latest fellow, Obama, will stop the oldest one of all.  At least, if he gets that done, that won't be a bad day's work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1469              But it's there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1470              And maybe they are not family value people.  Maybe they hide behind that tag.  I don't know how it works.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1471              What steps do you take to make sure that you don't tilt over the edge from the good side, which apparently Jeanne Sauvé was applauding and praying for, to the dark side, if I can put it that way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1472              What steps do you take to make sure that family values don't become exclusionary to a whole bunch of people?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1473              MR. GRAY:  I would like Richard Landau, who heads up this programming area, to speak to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1474              MR. LANDAU:  Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1475              I have in my hand our Code of Ethics.  It is a living document at CTS Television.  We apply it on a daily basis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1476              Everyone who produces programming at CTS and everyone who sells us programming is run through this before they are allowed on the air.  That is why you will find the level of complaints minimal, because we make these kinds of points extremely clear right off the bat.  We don't want to be purveyors of hatred.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1477              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That's a good answer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1478              A couple of little, quick follow‑ups.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1479              How do you ensure it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1480              You make your own programs, or have them made for you, so there is no problem there.  But you are selling time.  How do you monitor what is on the air from these people from all the other place, which is pre‑packaged stuff?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1481              MR. LANDAU:  To begin with, there are ministries which will never get onto CTS because we know they are trouble.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1482              I will not name them at this moment, but ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1483              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We don't need names.  We are dealing with concepts here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1484              MR. LANDAU:  That's fine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1485              We know people that we can rely upon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1486              There are other programs that require some pre‑screening, and we catch most of the problems before you will ever see them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1487              So there is some pre‑screening that takes place.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1488              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Is that the pre‑screening committee ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1489              MR. LANDAU:  The Compliance Committee?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1490              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  The Compliance and Pre‑screening Committee?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1491              Is that what we are talking about here?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1492              MR. LANDAU:  No.  The Compliance Committee's oversight is on balanced programming only.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1493              The problems tend to arise from broadcast ministries, but there have been some problems along the way that we have discussed with the Compliance Committee.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1494              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Let's take a simple one.  We are bringing a church service on Sunday morning ‑‑ there's a novel idea ‑‑ and the preacher goes bananas.  He just loses it up there in the pulpit, and he starts a rant, and it's not pleasant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1495              What do you do?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1496              Do you have a button that you can push?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1497              MR. LANDAU:  To begin with, none of it is live.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1498              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Nothing is live.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1499              MR. LANDAU:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1500              So we have a chance to pre‑screen, and there is the ‑‑ perhaps someone has gone off on us that we have never had a problem with before, that is conceivable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1501              We tend to pre‑screen anyone that we think might be a problem on a program or is new to us.  We look at that very carefully.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1502              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  If one gets through, what do you do?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1503              Do you try to make it up some way?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1504              Do you put in some sort of disclaimer?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1505              Do you explain that this went on, or do you just keep your fingers crossed and hope nobody complains?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1506              MR. LANDAU:  Oh, no, we don't keep our fingers crossed, we are proactive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1507              If something gets through and we find the problem, we will find it before the audience very often, and we will correspond with the producer in question, or the broadcast ministry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1508              My colleague Rob Sheppard may have something to add on this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1509              MR. SHEPPARD:  I just want to add that the process of screening ‑‑ everything that airs on CTS is pre‑screened, including commercials.  We have even rejected commercials for content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1510              It is a staff responsibility to pre‑screen everything that goes on CTS.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1511              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You have three people in Calgary and three people in Edmonton, and that group is going to have to pre‑screen all 168 hours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1512              That's a lot of television.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1513              MR. GRAY:  First of all, there aren't 168 hours of paid religious programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1514              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Of course, you are not going to pre‑screen your own, because you have already made it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1515              MR. GRAY:  That's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1516              And we trust the Fonz.  He's been around for 20 years, so we don't think he is going to say something wrong.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1517              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  He is unlikely to do anything alarming now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1518              MR. GRAY:  So that brings it down.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1519              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Although I notice that they brought Orville Redenbacher back from the dead to do more popcorn ads.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1520              So, you know, anything is possible out there.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1521              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Sorry.  Let's come back to earth.  What are we screening?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1522              You are screening only the block?  Is that what you are saying ‑‑ and the church services?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1523              MR. GRAY:  That's correct.  Those are the kinds of programs we are screening.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1524              Primarily, they will be fed out of Burlington.  That gets to be another issue with centralizing and master control.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1525              There will be staff to screen, so they will all be screened ‑‑ assuming that the same programs would be airing here as would be airing in Ontario, they will be screened by us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1526              So we won't have that problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1527              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That's a nice segue.  How many programs which are screened here will be exclusive to here ‑‑ to Alberta?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1528              You can do it in broad percentages, if you want.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1529              How many will be already being shown in Ontario, and you carry them out here, as well?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1530              MR. GRAY:  I would say that the majority of the ministry programs will be the same ones that are shown in Ontario.  The different programming here would be all of the locally produced ‑‑ Alberta programs produced in Alberta with the Alberta independent producers, with oversight from Alberta managers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1531              So the decisions will be made on content here, in Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1532              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I am getting a little past Jade's schedule here, but I have a few more questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1533              I don't know how, but I will make it up to you some way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1534              I won't eat lunch.  How about that?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1535              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I have some questions on programming.  There are a few things that I want to make clear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1536              Are we all right, Mr. Chairman?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1537              THE CHAIRPERSON:  You still have an hour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1538              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I still have an hour?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1539              I won't take an hour.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 1540              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Some of my colleagues have reminded me that we were supposed to take a break, so that's fine with me, and we will go into the actual programming after that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1541              Mr. Chairman, do you want to announce that officially?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1542              THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's fine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1543              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Let's take 15 minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1544              I like the Chairman's job.  It's cool.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1545              THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will take a 15‑minute break, and return at 11:10 a.m.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 10:55 a.m.

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 11:15 a.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1546              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1547              Mr. Gray and Mr. Langford.  Welcome back.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1548              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1549              When we left off, we were sort of stepping into the programming area.  I have my usual problem of muddification, once you get more than three numbers on a piece of paper.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1550              First, I really want to take you through some kind of facts and numbers, to make sure I have them right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1551              I am referring now to page 21 of your application.  On that page you give some hours of different things, and the first one is 11 hours of church services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1552              First of all, is that right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1553              Does that mean what I think it means, that you are going to bring us to St. Michael's Church, or the equivalent, as we saw in the film, and we are going to see 11 hours each week of church services?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1554              MR. SHEPPARD:  It is 11 hours of local church programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1555              That could be anything from a church service to a local preacher leading a discussion group on television, and local music programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1556              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I did read that wrong.  It is me who put the word "service" in there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1557              I am trying to look for page 21.  Excuse me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1558              MR. SHEPPARD:  We used the words "local church access".

LISTNUM 1 \l 1559              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Ah!  Good for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1560              The word "local" ‑‑ because you are applying for two licences, I have to be a little more definite on it in my own mind.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1561              Will there be 11 of these hours which will be exclusive to Edmonton, and 11 exclusive to Calgary?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1562              Or, do you consider the whole piece of the Alberta pie as local?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1563              MR. SHEPPARD:  It could be both.  It could be 11 exclusive to Calgary and 11 exclusive to Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1564              Our experience in Ontario is that the local church plays an important role in our schedule.  In fact, over our licence period, there have been 14 different churches in our licensed area that never accessed television prior to CTS.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1565              We have had some discussion here, in both Calgary in Edmonton, with local churches.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1566              Perhaps Drew Martin could speak to that point a bit further.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1567              MR. MARTIN:  In addition to the churches ‑‑ there are a number of churches that currently either have broadcast equipment in their facilities and/or the technical capability and expertise to be able to produce the kind of programming that we are looking for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1568              Also, we have had meetings with a number of para‑church organizations, which would include organizations like Break Forth, which is the largest ministerial equipping conference in North America, which takes place each year in Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1569              There are organizations like YC, which stands for "Youth Conference".  Over 17,000 young people a year attend that conference.  Those people are also very interested because there is a lot of music in that context.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1570              Organizations like Compassion Canada, as well as Voice of the Martyrs, Folks in the Family, Watchmen for the Nations, and the Wagner Institute, to name a few, are all ministry‑based organizations that would be interested in programming with us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1571              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So each of Calgary and Edmonton would get 11 hours.  Some of the 11 hours might be broadcast in both cities?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1572              Is that accurate, just to get to the bottom line of what I am asking here?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1573              MR. SHEPPARD:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1574              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  What do you mean when you say "local"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1575              Generally ‑‑ I don't know that we have an actual definition of it cast in stone anywhere.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1576              Do we, Mr. Counsellor?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1577              MR. McCALLUM:  In context.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1578              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  In context.  Everything is in context.  Marriage, life, criminal law, it's always in context.  It's so difficult.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1579              What do you consider local versus regional?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1580              You used both terms in your application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1581              MR. SHEPPARD:  In terms of local, our thought is, the local way a church will express itself ‑‑ express its faith.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1582              How they do that, whether they do that through a church service or through a music program or discussion, it is their own local way of expressing that Calgary or Edmonton church.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1583              Regionally, it may be an Alberta expression, how they express themselves as a province ‑‑ how they would do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1584              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  When you say 11 hours of local church access, it might actually be a church within Edmonton or a church within Calgary.  It might actually be a discussion group among some ministers, or some people who are involved in these churches.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1585              MR. SHEPPARD:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1586              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I haven't even asked a question yet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1587              MR. SHEPPARD:  Sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1588              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That's all right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1589              Will you lend me a million dollars?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1590              Do you stand by your last answer?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1591              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  What I am trying to figure out is, when you use the word "regional", you really mean the whole province.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1592              Is that what we are talking about here?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1593              MR. SHEPPARD:  We mean Calgary and Edmonton, combined.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1594              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  This isn't a trick question, I am just trying to figure it out.  There are no penalties for "yes" or "no" on this question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1595              When you say "local church services", it's not really 11 hours for each of Calgary and each of Edmonton, because there might be some duplication.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1596              MR. SHEPPARD:  It may be, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1597              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  There are no punitive results from that answer, one way or the other, but I am trying to understand it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1598              You talk in your application, and again in your supplementary brief, about how you would give away some free time to churches and church groups, I guess because they simply can't pay for it.  Would that come into this 11 hours?  Is that where the free time is?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1599              MR. GRAY:  I will get Richard Landau, from our balanced programming, to respond.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1600              MR. LANDAU:  The free time we are speaking about ‑‑ let me make this clear ‑‑ is to other than Christian faith communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1601              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I see.  That would be the Baha'is, or the Buddhists, or whomever.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1602              MR. LANDAU:  The qualifying groups are Muslims, Buddhists ‑‑ yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1603              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Is there any restriction?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1604              Is any recognized religion okay?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1605              MR. LANDAU:  According to our code, there are some restrictions.  There are classifications.  There is a numerical threshold, there is a permanency threshold.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1606              A faith has to demonstrate the ability to be able to solemnize weddings in the province, and it has to have a registered charitable status.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1607              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That leaves me out.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1608              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Let's go on to somewhere else where you use the word "local".  I want to make sure I have it right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1609              I am referring to page 21 of your application, and I will read it right off the sheet this time:

"Fifteen hours a week to local balanced programming."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1610              What does "local" mean in that context?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1611              MR. LANDAU:  Local balanced programming, if you look at the particular programs on the schedule, will be programming that originates here in the community that is specific to Calgary and specific to Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1612              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So "local" really means "local".

LISTNUM 1 \l 1613              MR. LANDAU:  It does, indeed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1614              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So the 15 hours in Edmonton will be different from the 15 hours in Calgary?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1615              MR. LANDAU:  Yes, they will be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1616              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That's good to know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1617              There are no more points for that, but at least I now understand it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1618              Well, maybe there are some points.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1619              Yeah, we will give you some points.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1620              MR. LANDAU:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1621              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  No problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1622              The four hours of children's programming ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1623              Again, most of these questions are just me trying to understand precisely what people are going to get in their living rooms.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1624              Are you going to make those shows yourself, or are those shows you may buy?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1625              MR. SHEPPARD:  A combination.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1626              Actually, not a combination.  It's programming that we would make, and programming that ministries would make, and they may buy the time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1627              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  They may buy the time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1628              Those little kids that we saw going around to different religions and figuring out a little lesson that my grandfather taught me with a strap, "You should talk to mom and dad" ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1629              I like the way they learned it a lot better than the way I learned it, but anyway...

LISTNUM 1 \l 1630              Would that be a children's program, those little excerpts that we saw?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1631              MR. SHEPPARD:  No, that was not children's programming, that was the program Seventh Heaven.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1632              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Did we see any children's programming on there?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1633              MR. SHEPPARD:  We did not have children's programming on our video.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1634              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So is it basically children's programming the way I understand children's programming ‑‑ cartoons and that sort of thing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1635              MR. SHEPPARD:  It's not necessarily cartoons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1636              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I'm not advocating cartoons, I am just trying to understand what they might see on their television when they turn it on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1637              MR. SHEPPARD:  It may be ministry programming using puppets, puppet show‑type programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1638              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And when you say "children and youth", how old are the youth?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1639              How far up the chain does this go?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1640              MR. SHEPPARD:  Teenagers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1641              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Right to 18, sort of thing, or more like 15?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1642              MR. SHEPPARD:  Fifteen to 18, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1643              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Would that be that summer camp reality show that I saw described somewhere in your supplementary brief?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1644              Would that qualify as a children's ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1645              MR. SHEPPARD:  Circle Square Summer would appeal to the age range of 12 to 18 years old.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1646              Another example of youth programming would be Christian Hit Countdown, which is a music video program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1647              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That's the music one, right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1648              MR. SHEPPARD:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1649              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1650              There is one hour showcasing Calgary independent producers.  I found that one on page 25 of the application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1651              I am not quite sure why you chose to isolate that one, since you talk so eloquently everywhere else about giving almost all of it to independent producers anyway.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1652              Is there some special aspect to this hour that makes it different from the rest of the independent production stuff you are going to be showing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1653              MR. SHEPPARD:  It is a regional program.  It would be open to all independent producers in Alberta.  We would be acquiring this program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1654              MR. MARTIN:  They are pre‑made programs.  We are acquiring those programs for that particular slot.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1655              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So you are just saying, "Show us your best work, and maybe we will play it."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1656              MR. MARTIN:  Yes, that's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1657              It is a showcase of Alberta‑produced programming.  It is already in the can.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1658              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I see.  Will you be paying for it, or is it a prize having it on TV?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1659              MR. MARTIN:  No, we will be paying a licence fee for them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1660              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That's good to know, you intervenors out there.  There's money coming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1661              I think my last one is the half‑hour showcasing Christian music, played three times a week ‑‑ so that is one and a half hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1662              Is that what we were just talking about, the music showcase one?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1663              MR. SHEPPARD:  That is a Christian music video program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1664              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  The same one we talked about two minutes ago?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1665              MR. SHEPPARD:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1666              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  There is not a second one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1667              Sometimes these questions are just trying to clear my head, which is a full‑time job sometimes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1668              Last on programming ‑‑ and this is, again, to try to understand some of your terms.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1669              Pages 5, 6 and 7 of your supplementary brief list a lot of programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1670              Let's start with page 5.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1671              I just want to make one thing clear here.  About midway down page 5, in the third‑last paragraph, you say:

"In Calgary and Edmonton, CTS will develop a daily, locally produced program in prime time that deals with social issues, religion, politics, the arts and education."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1672              You say that it will be similar to the Michael Coren show in Ontario, but I guess you will develop a new Michael Coren.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1673              Imagine two of them!  It would be wonderful.  Clone him.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1674              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You have politics in here, and through many errors of history, including the French Revolution and other minor blips, we learned that sometimes politics and religion don't mix very well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1675              So how do you do this?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1676              You have your code there, so maybe you can help me with it, but how do you start to bring in politics, education, and things like that, and have a religious undertone as well?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1677              MR. LANDAU:  This is balanced programming, and we take the term "balance" seriously.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1678              For example, with apologies to Albertans, we have people who come on from all different points of view, people like Sid Ryan in Ontario ‑‑ Ontarians know him to be from the far left ‑‑ and people from the right, like Sid Hoy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1679              We are quite careful about balancing who we bring on to speak in political terms.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1680              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So long as their name is Sid.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1681              MR. LANDAU:  Claire, I'm sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1682              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I apologize.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1683              MR. LANDAU:  Claire.  My apologies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1684              To be very frank with you, in terms of making that kind of programming, we take the whole notion of balance seriously, so we bring people from across the spectrum.  That is what we have done in Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1685              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  One at a time, as I saw Mr. Coren interviewing the agnostic on your little video that you had here?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1686              MR. LANDAU:  Actually, that was a panel of four.  If you look, there are people from all different persuasions there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1687              Sometimes it's one at a time, sometimes it's one‑on‑one.  Often enough, we try to have a panel that is balanced.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1688              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I must have missed the establishing shot, I apologize.  But I did see him interviewing the one young fellow there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1689              MR. LANDAU:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1690              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Let's get onto the term "balanced" ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1691              Once more, these people would all be bound by your Code of Ethics.  They couldn't go too far to the right, they couldn't go too far to the left, unless there was another view on ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1692              MR. LANDAU:  You can go far to the right and far to the left, just don't violate the code.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1693              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Just don't violate the code.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1694              MR. LANDAU:  That's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1695              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Don't hold anybody up to scorn ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1696              MR. LANDAU:  Don't encourage international political violence, don't encourage violence against your fellow human being, don't target people for humiliation or for conversion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1697              That's the area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1698              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You remember that now, Mr. Chairman.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1699              MR. LANDAU:  It's on the record.  You have our code.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1700              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Let's look at the word "balance", which is all over page 6.  I am having trouble understanding precisely what you mean by it, and it may be that it has different meanings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1701              We have Up Close and Personal characterized as a station‑produced balanced program.

"Such well known Calgarians as Preston Manning, Philip Currie, Jan Arden, Jerome Iginla, Ian Tyson and Terri Clark are among the guests we propose to feature in intimate, one‑hour interviews that probe each person's achievements, motivations and spiritual foundations."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1702              How do you get balance there?  What do you mean by "balance" if you are doing one‑on‑ones?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1703              MR. LANDAU:  As an executive producer responsible for a number of series that we have done in Ontario on this basis, you attempt to bring people in from a range of different faith perspectives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1704              Here in Alberta, we have already spoken with Dr. Steven Anglin, who I am sure most Albertans know, who would be the kind of guest we might have in Edmonton.  He is, clearly, a representative of the Buddhist community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1705              In terms of trying to make balance, you try to choose guests who come from across the range, and their points of view have been informed by their faith; not necessarily from one particular faith.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1706              You are trying to get a deep insight into the person.  That's what makes it balanced programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1707              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  How many of these would you make in a given year?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1708              How many of these shows?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1709              I know that you have repeats and replays, but how many original ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1710              What were they, hour sections or half‑hour sections?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1711              MR. LANDAU:  Half‑hour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1712              Twenty‑six in a ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1713              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  No, one hour.  Sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1714              Intimate, one hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1715              How many ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1716              MR. LANDAU:  Twenty‑six hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1717              Twenty‑six in Edmonton and 26 in Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1718              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  Let's deal with Calgary, because we are here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1719              Do you define balance, then, over the whole 26 hours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1720              Is that how you define it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1721              MR. LANDAU:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1722              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So it's not each show that is balanced, necessarily.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1723              MR. LANDAU:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1724              Clearly, if someone comes on and they are informed by one particular faith, it will be hard to get balance in that one program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1725              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  All right.  There are six ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1726              We don't have to do each one in detail, but I have Up Close and Personal, which is the one we were just discussing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1727              MR. LANDAU:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1728              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  The Spirit of Calgary and Wrap it Up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1729              Then, in Edmonton, I have In Depth, Faith West, and Degrees West.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1730              MR. LANDAU:  113 Degrees, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1731              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You're right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1732              MR. LANDAU:  It's a meridian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1733              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It seems that some of them you might be able to do balanced per program, and some you have to do balanced overall.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1734              Could you take me through and tell me which ones ‑‑ you don't have to describe the whole show, but which ones fit which sort of approach to balance?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1735              MR. LANDAU:  Let's be frank ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1736              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Maybe we could do it in an orderly way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1737              Do you have the list in front of you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1738              MR. LANDAU:  Yes, I do.  I am looking at it right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1739              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Maybe you could go down the list and tell me which ones ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1740              Do you have to take the whole 26, or in which ones will you get an inherent balance right in the hour?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1741              MR. LANDAU:  Okay.  Up Close and Personal will take all 26.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1742              The Spirit of Calgary, each program will consist of ‑‑ basically, it will be balance within the program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1743              Some weeks, because it is covering news, it will be more to one community than the other.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1744              For example, when the Pope passed away, people would have said that our programs for two or three weeks were very Catholic.  We make it up by covering the Danish cartoons.  Later on, the programs become very Islamic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1745              From program to program, the round table discussions will draw upon leaders from a range of faith communities, as we have done with Faith Journal, which is ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1746              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I'm sorry, you are going too fast for me, if I may interrupt.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1747              Are we still on the Spirit of Calgary?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1748              MR. LANDAU:  We are, indeed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1749              That kind of program also can have a round table discussion, which will draw upon faith leaders from various different faith communities to discuss issues of the day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1750              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So you are more likely to find a balanced look in each one, but not necessarily ‑‑ as you say, if the Pope dies, it might skew to the Catholic side.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1751              MR. LANDAU:  Some weeks it tilts more in one direction than others, but, generally speaking, we try to have a balance in each program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1752              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And Wrap it Up?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1753              MR. LANDAU:  Wrap it Up is a daily talk show, like the Michael Coren‑type program that you saw, and we will attempt to have balance ‑‑ probably, over the course of a week, you will get a sense of complete balance.  Not necessarily each program, but certainly over the course of a week ‑‑ and certainly over the course of the broadcast year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1754              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  In Depth?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1755              MR. LANDAU:  In Depth is similar to Up Close and Personal.  It's a different name for a program, and a different city.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1756              So, rather than repeat myself, I will say that my comments would repeat for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1757              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1758              MR. LANDAU:  Faith West is similar to the Spirit of Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1759              113 Degrees West, which is the longitude of Edmonton, is similar to Wrap it Up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1760              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  What do you do when someone comes in and says, "I've never watched your show before.  I just turned it on, and it's all Catholic, Catholic, Catholic."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1761              It just happened that the Pope died, but this person wasn't thinking of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1762              How do you handle that sort of inquiry?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1763              MR. LANDAU:  Frankly, that would be a first‑time experience for us.  We have not had that in the eight years we have been making programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1764              If I had to deal with it right now, I would say, "You are right, and these are the circumstances under which we are operating.  But if you watch us over the next week or two, or if you tune in further along in the program" ‑‑ because we try to balance each program ‑‑ "you will notice that we have a feature about Afghan women."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1765              We try to balance each program.  I can tell you, as an executive producer, that it is quite a juggling act between the recognized world faiths, but we do it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1766              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  When I come down to the middle of page 7, where you list more ‑‑ regional programming this time ‑‑ that word "regional" ‑‑ I see Insight and Muslim Insight and Reflections on Buddhism.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1767              If it is all about Buddhism and it's all about Muslim, is it safe for me to assume that you have to watch all of the shows if you want to get a sense of balance?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1768              Because you call them balanced.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1769              Or, is there another way you achieve balance in these shows?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1770              MR. LANDAU:  In these two particular communities ‑‑ I should explain why those two communities have been chosen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1771              Census statistics ‑‑ we are due for new religious statistics in March, but the census 2001 statistics show that the largest non‑Christian minority in both communities is Islam, and second is Buddhism.  That is why those, in particular, were singled out for regional production.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1772              My discussion with the Muslim producer who is going to make a program for me will be, "Listen, we need to show some balance in the program within itself, so be drawing from various strands within the community."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1773              It is not intended to be one particular point of view within that community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1774              If you know something about the Buddhist community, that is going to be difficult anyway.  It doesn't break down as one amorphous group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1775              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So your definition ‑‑ and don't let me put words in your mouth, I am just trying to understand this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1776              In these programs, your definition would be:  We want this to be a balanced ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1777              This is a show about Muslims ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1778              MR. LANDAU:  Islam, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1779              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Islam ‑‑ and we want it to be balanced.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1780              MR. LANDAU:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1781              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  In that context.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1782              Obviously, we are not going to bring in Catholics, we are not going to bring in Anglicans, but in the context of a show about Islam, it will be a balanced show about Islam.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1783              MR. LANDAU:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1784              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Are you going to do that show‑to‑show, or do you have to tune in to the whole 26 of them to get the picture?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1785              MR. LANDAU:  You would probably have to tune in for a few weeks, because depending upon the program ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1786              We have a program in Ontario called Muslim Chronicle, and one week we will have on a guest who is politically off to the left, and another week we will have someone whose real joy is dahwa, or Islamic teaching.  They will draw that person another week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1787              Some weeks we will get someone who is involved in women's issues in the Muslim community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1788              We try to draw upon a range.  We talk to the producers and say, "Give us a range of flavours."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1789              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Have you run into any problems where people have said, "No, you're too strong on the Shiites against the Soonies," or whatever?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1790              Or, in your experience in Ontario, has this approached worked?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1791              MR. LANDAU:  Not in eight years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1792              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  No problems?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1793              MR. LANDAU:  None.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1794              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So two things:  either nobody is watching, or you are doing a good job.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1795              MR. LANDAU:  We know the communities very well.  I think we have earned their ‑‑ I don't think, I know we have earned their trust.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1796              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That was a joke.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1797              MR. LANDAU:  I know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1798              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You are allowed to laugh.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1799              You can secretly hate me, but you have to laugh for the record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1800              I think I am fine on Christian Hit Countdown and Circle Summer Square.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1801              I think that I pretty well understand your approach to programming, your approach to the code, your approach to local versus regional, how you oversee things, your committee for doing that, and your people who are watching and pre‑screening ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1802              I do have one last specific question, and I am going by memory, so correct me if I am wrong.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1803              It seems to me that, in response to an interrogatory of sometime in September 2005, with regard to a committee, or a council, or an advisory group that might help you with your multi‑faith programming, you indicated that you would have a five‑person group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1804              Is there any reason why you would have five here and eight ‑‑ and, again, I am going by memory ‑‑ in Ontario?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1805              Why did you change?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1806              MR. LANDAU:  The reason being, if you look at the census numbers in Ontario, the number of faith communities that are very closely bunched together in their numbers ‑‑ population ‑‑ the Sikh and Hindu and Jewish ‑‑ and the Muslim community has grown much more rapidly than the others ‑‑ are very close to each other in terms of numbers and size, so we felt that a broader group would give us a broader reflection.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1807              Also, we added members to represent London and Ottawa, as the Commission knows.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1808              So, here, we would start with five.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1809              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Is my recollection correct that you have two Catholics on this one?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1810              MR. LANDAU:  Indeed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1811              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Why would that be, just out of curiosity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1812              MR. LANDAU:  I thought you meant that in Ontario we have two Catholics.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1813              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Here you would have one?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1814              MR. LANDAU:  One Catholic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1815              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Perhaps you could refresh my memory on the list of the five.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1816              MR. LANDAU:  We have one Roman Catholic, two Christians, or Protestants as you might call them, one Muslim and one Buddhist.  That is the five‑member committee.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1817              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  In Ontario, did you break it down as far as Evangelical Christians, or is that something that I read somewhere else?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1818              We do a lot of reading.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1819              MR. LANDAU:  We do have on the committee one Evangelical Christian in Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1820              Two, actually.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1821              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Two, I thought, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1822              MR. LANDAU:  Yes.  Two right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1823              One is on leave at the moment, so one active, and one will return in the spring.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1824              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Could one of the Protestants be an Evangelical representative?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1825              MR. LANDAU:  Here?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1826              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1827              MR. LANDAU:  Oh, certainly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1828              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I am not pushing for it, I am just trying to understand it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1829              MR. LANDAU:  We would not rule anybody out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1830              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That's good to know.  We are all looking for future careers.  That's excellent.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1831              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  How would you have one committee for Alberta?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1832              Where do they meet?  How do they meet?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1833              How do you do that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1834              MR. LANDAU:  The committee will probably alternate between Edmonton and Calgary.  I haven't really worked out the mechanics of that, unless they want to meet in Red Deer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1835              I would assume that they would meet once in Edmonton and once in Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1836              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  The same committee.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1837              MR. LANDAU:  Yes, it will be the same committee.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1838              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  File into the old Hummer and zip one way or the other.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1839              MR. LANDAU:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1840              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  That's the way you are supposed to answer these questions.  Just give me a little ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1841              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I am almost finished.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1842              We sent you an interrogatory on September 3rd with regard to a number of things, but one of them was the specific condition of not broadcasting less than 75 percent out of Category 4 through the day, and no less than 50 percent in the evening.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1843              Then, I think you replied on October 7th, and, as I recall, you said that you would accept a condition of licence with regard to the 75/50 split.  So I assume that is still on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1844              MR. GRAY:  Yes, that's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1845              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You then said, with regard to the second half:

"At no time in our history has CTS TV broadcast programs that, as a balanced religious broadcaster, would require contextualization, as outlined in Part 2(b) of your question, i.e., news magazine programs, and we do not anticipate broadcasting such programs in the future."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1846              But you do have, as we just discussed ‑‑ you do cross the line a little bit into the area of politics and news, and that sort of thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1847              So why would you be adverse to accepting this, just to be careful?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1848              MR. GRAY:  Commissioner, I believe there was a follow‑up letter to that where we said that we would accept that condition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1849              I don't have it in front of me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1850              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I will have a peek.  I have your follow‑up letter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1851              Let me look at counsel, and if counsel nods ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1852              You will accept it.  Is that the bottom line?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1853              MR. GRAY:  Yes, we will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1854              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That will save a lot of flipping noises in the microphone, won't it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1855              All right.  We won't flip any more pages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1856              What are the challenges of this?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1857              There was no reluctance on your part to have this sort of agreement to these things, but does it impose a challenge in some way, in the sense of perhaps attracting markets, having a little more popular entertainment shows, and that sort of thing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1858              MR. GRAY:  I think the context, as I was thinking about it at the time, was because of the programming of Rogers and "now TV" and the concept of where that evolved from.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1859              The fact that we hadn't scheduled that kind of programming, that was in our minds when we answered that; but as we reflected on it, we realized that there was really no reason not to accept that as a full condition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1860              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It does seem pretty much in keeping with what you are doing, doesn't it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1861              MR. GRAY:  It is, exactly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1862              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I think the Rogers people inherited much of what they purchased, and I am sure they will see the light sooner or later and follow your lead, as they say.  But that is perhaps for another day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1863              When you define "religious", and expanding into values‑based programming, how do you make a decision that the Fonz is okay, but something else isn't?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1864              How do you do that?  What is the process?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1865              His name isn't Fonz.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1866              He is with the show Happy Days or something, isn't he?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1867              That was so long ago, they had fins on Pontiacs back then.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1868              MR. SHEPPARD:  We look at the entire series.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1869              If we use the Fonz as an example, this type of programming really reflects the ministry program ‑‑ the 75 percent of our schedule that is ministry teaching programming.  It reflects it.  It is almost the sermon illustration, if you will, in our programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1870              In the case of the Fonz, although he may do something bad in the series, throughout the series he learns a lesson, and it is a values‑based or a moral lesson that is learned.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1871              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It is almost the classical definition of the dulce and the utile in literature, to delight and to instruct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1872              Boy oh boy, we are getting back there, aren't we?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1873              It's not too often that we speak Latin up here, but once in a while we are forced to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1874              Thank you for that.  There may be some further questions that come from staff or my colleagues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1875              I have one last thing that I want to clear up, and I will try to be brief, because it is just straight numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1876              I am not clear on your Canadian talent development.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1877              I read one line in an appendix somewhere which led me to believe that you are spending $4.83 million, evenly divided between Edmonton and Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1878              Then, this morning it seemed to me ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1879              By the way, what triggered a bit of uncertainty in our minds was that some of the intervenors seemed to take that and run with it, like they were getting big hunks of it, and I wasn't quite sure ‑‑ you know, are we talking about a million dollars for this and a million for that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1880              I wasn't quite sure that it dovetailed into the figure, because I didn't have a breakdown.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1881              Then, this morning, in your opening remarks, we heard at the end that, in addition to the $9,660,000, which I guess is the 4.8 from both places, although it is a little bit higher, you are going to put a first year $300,000 Alberta Development Fund together, and an annual $30,000, which would be about $270,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1882              Is that what that would be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1883              Would it be 210?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1884              Boy, I'm glad my kids aren't listening.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1885              It's no wonder they always want me to do my taxes over again.  I never get it right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1886              Okay.  An annual $30,000, or $210,000 over seven years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1887              Where did this come from, and why should we take it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1888              Even though it's more, isn't it kind of a little unfair to come bouncing in here saying, "We have seen all of the other applications now, and we are popping a little more onto ours"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1889              Help me through this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1890              MR. GRAY:  It didn't quite happen that way, I assure you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1891              I had one‑on‑one meetings, and Drew helped me set these up because of his involvement in the Alberta production community with actors and producers and directors.  As you meet with these people, you realize that there is a very vibrant community, but they all have mortgages to pay and groceries to buy, and if we want to use the independent production community as much as possible in producing all of our programming, we need to encourage them, and not be a burden on them, at the same time that we want them to develop program ideas and concepts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1892              So it seemed like a good idea, and certainly the producers all indicated that this was something they would like, as we got to know them more and more.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1893              It was really only in the last month or so that we came to the conclusion that this is something we need to be doing for the sake of the producers themselves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1894              And these would be for programs that would be ‑‑ concepts that would be consistent with the kind of programming on CTS.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1895              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I gather that each city would get the same amount of money.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1896              Is that the way it would work?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1897              MR. GRAY:  No, it is $300,000 overall in Alberta, and $30,000 for the annual mentorship fund.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1898              So this is the total in Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1899              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Let's leave those aside.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1900              That is $300,000 and $210,000.  That was added this morning, or I first learned about it this morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1901              Can you take me through the 4.83, or the half of 9.660?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1902              Just break it down into pieces and tell me where it is going, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1903              If it's in your application, I'm sorry, I missed it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1904              MR. GRAY:  I will ask our numbers man to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1905              MR. HILLIER:  That represents the local Canadian expenditure on the Alberta production community, and it is for the total original hours that we would be producing for the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1906              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  This is the money you are spending on programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1907              MR. HILLIER:  That's correct.  Our strategy is to use our local programming ‑‑ the independent production community to provide the local programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1908              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  This isn't above and beyond.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1909              In other words, some of this money may go to the very shows we were just talking about?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1910              MR. HILLIER:  The independent production community will be used to produce our balanced programming, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1911              The "over and above" that you mentioned is the 300 and the 210.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1912              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Generally, in my sense, sitting up here and listening to people like yourselves, and reading applications like yours, when people talk about this, they talk about it as kind of an extra benefit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1913              There are all sorts of words thrown around.  "Benefits" when you buy talent development, when you get it for free ‑‑ if "applying" is looked upon as free ‑‑ but it's a benefit to the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1914              It is above and beyond what you would normally do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1915              Let me put it bluntly.  You are a television station; you need television shows.  That's your inventory.  That's your product.  That's what you sell, even though you don't, but I mean it in the sense of a standard television show.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1916              Do you think it is within your comprehension of a package that you are putting together as part of an application ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1917              Is the way you understand it that you can just take your normal inventory ‑‑ that you would have to have anyway, because if you didn't you wouldn't have a television show, you wouldn't have a service ‑‑ and count that as the Canadian development part of your application?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1918              MR. GRAY:  The development is just $300,000, plus the mentorship for students.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1919              The $9.660 million was the Alberta part of program expenditures in our budget over seven years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1920              But, rather than building a studio and hiring staff and buying cameras, and all the rest of it, to produce all of these programs in‑house, we have met a great many independent producers.  We have found production resources.  The cameras, the studios, the production units are all here in Alberta, so we felt that it would be more wise to use the Alberta independent production community, under our leadership, to produce those programs ‑‑ the locally produced Alberta programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1921              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I suppose I have made a mistake here, and I apologize for it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1922              The 4.8 has nothing to do with CTD then, it is just what you budgeted to buy programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1923              MR. GRAY:  That's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1924              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  Thank you.  I'm sorry, I just got it wrong.  Somehow I misunderstood you.  I thought you were putting that through as CTD.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1925              So your CTD then ‑‑ your commitment to expenditures above and beyond all other expenditures, simply for talent development, or whatever it is called these days ‑‑ they changed the initials somewhere along the line ‑‑ is $300,000 plus $210,000 ‑‑ $510,000 over the seven years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1926              Have I got that right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1927              MR. GRAY:  I guess we are arguing over terminology, but we would call it a development fund.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1928              Again, it is not part of our program budget, it is in addition to what we would be paying independent producers to produce programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1929              This is the assistance, the encouragement, the help for them to develop the program concepts.  This is not intended to be repaid or taken out of the program budget, this is in addition to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1930              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Where in your application, or in your supplementary brief, or in any of the letters that you wrote in reply to intervenors, or anywhere else, did you mention this $510,000?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1931              MR. GRAY:  We did it in our response to the intervention by the Canadian Film and Television Production Association.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1932              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Maybe someone could help me find that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1933              Perhaps you could find it and read it to me.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 1934              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Is that the one dated January 26, 2007?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1935              MR. GRAY:  Yes, it is.