ARCHIVÉ -  Transcription

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

              TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES AVANT

                CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

                          SUBJECT:

 

 

 

VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

 

Delta Regina                          Delta Regina

1919 Saskatchewan Drive               1919, promenade Saskatchewan

Regina, Saskatchewan                  Regina, Saskatchewan

 

November 2, 2006                      le 2 novembre 2006

 

 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

                 Canadian Radio‑television and

                 Telecommunications Commission

 

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

                 télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

                   Transcript / Transcription

 

 

                               

                VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

              PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

                               

 

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Barbara Cram                      Chairperson / Présidente

Michel Arpin                      Vice-Chair, Broadcasting / Vice‑président, radiodiffusion

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Ronald Williams                   Commissioner / Conseiller

Joan Pennefather                  Commissioner / Conseillère

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Chantal Boulet                    Secretary / Secrétaire

Leanne Bennett                    Legal Counsel /

Conseillère juridique

Lyne Cape                         Hearing Manager /

Gérante de l'audience

 

 

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

 

Delta Regina                      Delta Regina

1919 Saskatchewan Drive           1919, promenade Saskatchewan

Regina, Saskatchewan              Regina, Saskatchewan

 

November 2, 2006                  le 2 novembre 2006

                           - iv -

 

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

SASKATOON - PHASE I

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

Harvard Broadcasting Inc.                        1138 / 5721

 

Standard Radio Inc.                              1196 / 5959

 

Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc.                   1266 / 6272

 

Radio CJVR Ltd.                                  1311 / 6499

 

Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc. (AVR)               1385 / 6919

 

Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Ltd.                1423 / 7103

 

Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Ltd.                1518 / 7515

 

 

 

SASKATOON - PHASE II

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

(no appearances)

         Regina, Saskatchewan / Regina (Saskatchewan)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Thursday, November 2, 2006

    at 0830 / L'audience reprend le jeudi

    2 novembre 2006 à 0830

5712             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.

5713             Good morning everybody.  It's a period of victory.  Gainer has to sit in the stands and behave himself.  Just wait, we have all winter to think about what we're going to do with Ralph the dog.

5714             Madam Secretary...?

5715             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

5716             Before we proceed to the next application, I would just like to indicate for the record that Newcap has filed last night their breakdown of ‑‑ their cost breakdown for their CTD initiatives for both their Regina and Saskatoon applications.  These documents will be placed on their application file and can be reviewed in the public examination room.

5717             We now proceed with item 18 on the agenda, which is an application by Harvard Broadcasting Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Saskatoon.

5718             The new station would operate on frequency 92.3 MHz (channel 222C1) with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts (non‑directional antenna/antenna height 179.1 metres).

5719             Appearing for the Applicant is Mr. Bruce Cowie, who will introduce his colleagues, and you will have 20 minutes for your presentation.

5720             Mr. Cowie...?

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

5721             MR. COWIE:  Thank you.

5722             Good morning, Madam Chair, members of the Commission, Commission staff.  My name is Bruce Cowie and I'm the Vice‑President of Harvard Broadcasting.

5723             I am pleased to be here today to present our application for The Zone, a new Youth Contemporary FM station serving the growing the City of Saskatoon.

5724             Before beginning our presentation, I would like to introduce the members of our panel.  Seated on my right is Michael Olstrom, our station's group manager.  Seated next to Michael is Karen Broderick; Harvard's National Sales Manager.  On my left is Daryl Holien, Harvard's Director of FM Programming and Creative Services.  Daryl has been in the radio industry for 30 years, having served in every facet of the business from on‑air to production and programming.  Seated next to Daryl is Gary McGowan.  Gary has been in the radio programming and concert promotion business in markets throughout Western Canada including Saskatoon for over 30 years.  Gary's active involvement at the "street level" both as a club owner and in the staging and promotion of concerts provides him with valuable insight into the media habits and musical tastes of the disenfranchised youth market we seek to serve in Saskatoon.

5725             In the back row, beginning on my far right, is Debra McLaughlin of Strategic Inc., the company that did our feasibility and consumer demand study.  Next to Debra is Rob Malcolmson, a partner at Goodmans LLP, our legal counsel.  Next to Rob is Tina Svedahl, Vice‑President, Investments for Harvard Developments Inc., our parent company.  And on my left in the back row is Paul Hill, President and CEO of Harvard Developments.  Mr. Hill is one of Canada's business leaders and operates a family‑owned, diversified company that has just celebrated 103 years of doing business in Western Canada.

5726             Paul and I will first speak to you about the importance of Saskatoon to our radio operations in Saskatchewan and why Saskatoon is a "must have" market for anyone seeking to operate a viable regional broadcasting business in this province.  Michael will then give an overview of the rapidly growing Saskatoon market and the extraordinarily high demand for the youth contemporary format that we propose.

5727             Karen will speak to the demand among advertisers for our proposed service and then Michael, Daryl and Gary will describe the station in more detail, including the kind of station it will be and the music that it will play.  And I then will present our plans for talent development.

5728             Paul...?

5729             MR. HILL:  Thank you, Bruce.

5730             As the Commission knows, Harvard is a regional broadcaster based in Saskatchewan.  We have been in the broadcasting business for three decades and have been proud and honoured to serve the residents of Regina and southern Saskatchewan.  However, our efforts to establish a major presence in radio in our home province of Saskatchewan have always been hampered by the fact that we do not have a station in Saskatoon.  Saskatoon is the largest radio market in the province and it is the only market in the entire province that is experiencing any significant growth.

5731             Saskatoon represents the foundation of our regional growth strategy.  Having tracked the economy in this market for years, we know that the city is underserved and can support a new radio station.  Bruce...?

5732             MR. COWIE:  Members of the Commission, the Regina‑Saskatoon corridor represents the economic lifeblood of Saskatchewan.  Regina is the capital city and centre for Government, but Saskatoon is where the majority of the province's head offices choose to locate and it is the hub from which all economic growth within the province emanates.  As is the case in many businesses, an established presence in both of these cities is an absolute necessity for growth and long term viability in Saskatchewan.  Radio is no exception to that rule.

5733             We are committed to continuing our history of community service and to investing in the communities we serve.  But we cannot do it alone in Saskatchewan ‑‑ we need your assistance to make our radio business viable in this province for the long term.

5734             The assistance you can and, in our view, should provide, is a new licence in Saskatoon.  A Harvard station in Saskatoon will correct an imbalance that exists among the province's radio operators and provide us with new opportunities to generate advertising revenues that are not available today as we cannot offer media buyers a window into the province's largest and fastest growing market.  A new station in this market will provide us with critical mass, will strengthen our operations in Regina and will provide us with the ability to weather downturns in the Regina economy.

5735             In recent years, we have continually monitored the strength of the Saskatoon market.  In fact, we have undertaken no less than five economic surveys over the past five years.  Like the other applicants, we have determined that now is finally the right time to introduce some diversity of ownership and programming in the Saskatoon radio market.

5736             Saskatoon is key to our long term viability in Saskatchewan.  We submitted our application before the Commission issued its call because we knew the city was underserved and could support a new radio station.  The economy is strong and growing and the youth market, in particular, is underserved.  In short, the time is right to issue a licence in Saskatoon.

5737             Michael...?

5738             MR. OLSTROM:  Thank you, Bruce.

5739             The economic future in Saskatoon continues to be bright.  Across all indicators ‑‑ real GDP, population, total employment, personal income and housing starts, the forecast is for ongoing positive growth.  Perhaps the most critical element to examine in terms of the viability of the radio advertising sector, however, is retail sales.  And it is in this area that the strength of the Saskatoon economy can be seen.

5740             The Conference Board of Canada reports that retail sales grew by 10.7 percent between 2004 and 2005.  To put this in context, Saskatoon's growth is expected to outpace Canada as a whole in this key indicated.  Consumer confidence is high and the retail sector is expected to continue to prosper as a result.

5741             In addition to a healthy economy, Saskatoon has a growing population that is defying the overall provincial decline.  According to updated figures from the Financial Post Markets 2006, half of Saskatoon's population is under 34 years of age.  The city is also home to the University of Saskatchewan and its almost 20,000 students.

5742             In our consumer demands survey, the majority of respondents in the 15 to 24 demographic, 56 percent, reported that there was little to listen to on the radio.  Over three‑quarters of this group, (78 percent) said they would listen more if the music they liked were available and only 15 percent stated they were very satisfied with local radio.

5743             Coincidental with the clear expressions of dissatisfaction was a significant statement of interest in The Zone.  Fully 83 percent expressed an intention to listen should the service be licensed.

5744             MS BRODERICK:  Growth in radio advertising revenues is directly tied to growth in the retail sector.

5745             Multiple sources ‑‑ Conference Board of Canada, Financial Post Markets, the Region of Saskatoon and Provincial estimates ‑‑ all conclude that Saskatoon will experience real growth in retail sales and surpass both the regional and national projections, but it is the size of the youth market in combination with the current lack of service for this demographic that argues most persuasively for the success of The Zone.

5746             Advertiser interest in youth radio exists at both local and national levels.  The opportunities for a youth service in Saskatoon are no different than those presented to the Commission in other markets.  These advertisers are looking either exclusively or in combination with other consumer groups to reach the very audience The Zone will serve.

5747             Also noteworthy is that retailers generally are confident that an independent radio operator will introduce much needed competition to Saskatoon.  And because The Zone will be positioned to grow both tuning and revenues, it will have minimal impact on the incumbent stations when it enters the market.

5748             Michael...?

5749             MR. OLSTROM:  Thank you, Karen.

5750             Harvard recognizes the need to provide service to younger audiences to ensure radio's place in their media choices as they age.  As we all know, there has been a general decline in youth tuning.  We need to make radio relevant to a younger audience.  Our Youth Contemporary Format will accomplish this.

5751             The Zone will offer the same cohesive listening experience as Adult Contemporary, but will be specifically designed to meet the needs of a younger demographic.

5752             Our research identified a large variety of music and less repetition as being critical to developing Saskatoon's youth audience.  Offering a mix of currently charting Pop, Urban, Alternative, and Modern Rock Music, The Zone's playlist will satisfy the widest range of interests within the youth market.  In addition to hit international acts, top Canadian artists such as Nelly Furtado, Nickelback, Hot Hot Heat and K‑os will feature prominently in our regular playlist and will receive meaningful airplay on the station, as evidenced by our commitment to 40 percent Canadian content.  Daryl...?

5753             MR. HOLIEN:  One of the programming elements that was also given great importance by the respondents to the Strategic study was information programming.  We know that our listeners will want programming that speaks to them.  Saskatoon's youth want more coverage of the issues and events that matter to them most; presented to them in a relevant and engaging way.

5754             In addition to 75 newscasts each week, The Zone will offer coverage of local, regional, university, and high school sports.  Five times a day, we will broadcast the Entertainment ZONE, which will feature club and concert listings, all‑ages shows and other events that will interest our younger listeners.

5755             In addition to news, sports and entertainment and feature programming, The Zone intends to offer other locally relevant information programming to youth.  Through a unique information series we call Enrichment, we will help listeners get to know their local community in a meaningful way.  We will broadcast one‑minute Enrichment segments throughout the programming day.  This segment will bring the city's rich cultural traditions into the mainstream, making them relevant to younger listeners and facilitating cross‑cultural understanding.  Gary...?

5756             MR. McGOWAN:  The Zone will be entertaining, interactive and original.

5757             Our feature programming will examine new trends and emerging talent across all genres that appeal to youth.  The Indie ZONE, Saskatoon ZONE, The Urban Play ZONE, and The Canadian ZONE will become appointment‑listening for our listeners.  Through our feature programs, The Zone will focus on a variety of genres; showcase local talent and promote emerging Canadian acts.  We will offer a weekly countdown of top music; feature guest appearances by "Listener DJs", broadcast listener polls; and offer "instant messaging" between listeners and hosts.

5758             Of particular note is the special emphasis that The Zone will place on Canadian and regional Youth Contemporary artists not just through our commitment to offer 40 percent Canadian content, but also through the Canadian ZONE feature celebrating home‑grown talent from Saskatchewan and across Canada, with a special emphasis on new acts.

5759             The Zone will also support and promote those Saskatoon venues that the showcase music that appeals to our audience.  We believe that in partnering with local live music venues like Amigos, the Odeon and Louie's Pub at the U of S, The Zone will invigorate the local music scene and attract Youth Contemporary artists to Saskatoon.

5760             Now that you have heard all about The Zone, let's sample its sound and hear from the Saskatoon audience we seek to serve.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

5761             MR. COWIE:  Members of the Commission, Harvard is committing over one million dollars over seven years to foster Canadian Talent Development in Saskatoon.  Our CTD package will expand an initiative we first introduced as part of our Calgary application; an intensely‑local approach focused on three phases of an artist's development, Discovery, Exposure and Support.

5762             First, Discovery:  Harvard will stage an annual high profile talent search in the Saskatoon area.  The Zone's audiences will participate by voting for the finalists.  Finalists will be featured on the radio station and listeners will be asked to vote on line for their favourite.  On the final night, an all‑ages concert will be held at a local venue where the finalists will perform and the winners will be announced.

5763             Next, Exposure and Support:  The Zone will build on the exposure given to the artists over the course of the contest by producing and releasing a CD featuring two selections from each of five finalists.  The CD will be heavily promoted locally and on‑air and copies will be provided to each of the artists.  All profits from the sale of the CD will be split among the contributing artists.

5764             The Zone will also support local music, education in Saskatoon by funding four annual scholarships for students attending the University of Saskatchewan's Department of Music.

5765             Finally, Harvard will donate $20,000 per year for seven years to a Local Broadcast Centre of VoicePrint Canada.  VoicePrint currently has no presence in Saskatchewan and this funding will provide it with the means to train and develop on‑air readers and develop writers in the art of broadcast description.  Michael...?

5766             MR. OLSTROM:  Part of The Zone's commitment to Saskatoon is to reflect all groups in the community.  As such, over and above the direct CTD funding, we will invest in an innovative talent development program for Aboriginal broadcasters; a  program that we first introduced as part of our successful Calgary FM application.  In partnership with APTN, Harvard will offer a news‑mentoring program.  The ultimate goal of this is initiative to provide "hands‑on" training and broadcast experience to persons who might not otherwise have access to entry level positions, and yet who have a real passion for, and whose career aspirations include, news.

5767             MR. COWIE:  Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, in closing, I would like to summarize why we believe The Zone fulfills the Commission's licensing criteria:

5768             Approval of this application will bring diversity of programming and ownership to a market currently served by just two owners, each with three stations.  This diversity will add a new voice to Saskatoon and will develop the market in terms of new programming, advertisers, and audience.

5769             The Zone will offer 40 percent  Canadian content and supply a Youth Contemporary format that is missing in the market and that responds to the high demand on the part of the youth demographic.

5770             We will promote the development  of Canadian talent both on‑air and off through our feature programming and locally‑focussed CTD package of over one million dollars.  In addition, our partnership with APTN will benefit all parties and help train a new generation of Aboriginal reporters.

5771             And, finally, granting our application will strengthen an independent broadcaster that has done business in Saskatchewan for over 30 years, allowing us to extend our tradition of community service to the growing market of Saskatoon.  Critical mass and access to growth are essential to long‑term viability and sustainability in this province.  In Saskatchewan growth resides in Saskatoon and this market is therefore critical to our future.  In our view, Harvard, as a Saskatchewan based broadcaster deserves the opportunity to grow within its home province.  We hope you will agree.

5772             Thank you for your time and attention.  We are pleased to answer any questions and Michael Olstrom will act as our quarterback.  Thank you.

5773             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm happy to know that Louis is probably still around.

5774             Commissioner Cugini...?

5775             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

5776             Mr. Cowie, Mr. Olstrom, colleagues, welcome back to I guess it's round three; different, city, different round.  Hopefully you will be pleasantly surprised at how few questions I have.  It's an absolute reflection on obviously the quality of your application, as well as your presentation this morning, but I will start with format.  Pop, Urban, Modern and Alternative Rock.  I can appreciate that in a larger market this may be three or even four different radio stations.  Why are you so confident that the blending of these formats will create a radio station that the youth will want to listen to?

5777             MR. OLSTROM:  Commissioner Cugini, first I'd like to say we're very stoked about this format and opportunity to bring it to the youth demographic or the youth of Saskatoon.  I guess the closest analogy I can use with the format is that comparing it to Adult Contemporary and Adult Contemporary in terms of the number of charts that they use to compile their sound, and that's for an older demographic; ours targeting the youth demographic.  The key differences being the charts that are used, the amount of new music that is being used, and then the 12 to 34 broad demographic that we are targeting.

5778             And I would like to turn to Gary McGowan who can give you a little bit of insight into the format, the music, and how it works, and how we believe this is going to work in the Saskatoon marketplace.

5779             MR. McGOWAN:  Well, the top‑line part of the answer, Commissioner, is the fact that this is the way today's youth consume music.  One of the number one things that if you talk to them, if you research them, that they will tell you, is they like variety and they like new stuff and they like some push on it.  They like some experimentation on it, so if I can take a few minutes, I'll take you through some more detail on how Youth Contemporary radio works, how we're going to put it together in Saskatoon.

5780             Michael had referenced the charts we're going to draw from.  As you said, in larger markets, you often have the population base to section it out a bit more.  In fact, many recent licences have done just that in other parts of the country.

5781             In Saskatoon we have a unique opportunity because the service window is so large; to put it together, not just similar to the way they might download those individual genres and load them up on their iPod and walk around the town because they can't listen to it otherwise on the radio.

5782             So we'll draw music from the four major charts that have youth elements in them, Pop and Top 40.  The various streams of Urban, which includes mainstream Hip Hop, Rap, Rhythmic CHR, Modern Rock and Alternative Rock.

5783             The fifth element is real, really important in this.  Maybe it's the most important in connecting with the audience reflecting their interests and building their loyalty, and that is new artists and new music that has yet to appear on any chart.  These are very inquisitive people.  It's a generation that really likes new things and likes it in great frequency.

5784             That's certainly a message that as we have dialogued with our audience in Saskatoon, and researched them, has been repeated over and over again, and said, essentially our hours of tuning to radio are declining because radio does not address our interest in new music or share our interest in musical experimentation.  So The Zone is going to address this.  Music that is less than two years old will make up approximately 70 percent of our playlist.

5785             Now, in a bit I will ask Daryl Holien, keeper of the numbers around this to provide you with a breakdown of how this music would fit together if The Zone were launching today.  When he does that, though, I want you to keep in mind that in a year from today, if we were on the air, it might be very different because our focus is on the audience.  It's on these people and, as we said, the one thing that is predictable about them, is that their tastes are ever shifting and ever changing.

5786             Now, another message that we received loud and clear was the Youth's audience dislike of excess repetition and lack of variety, so The Zone will prominently feature new and emerging artists.  For example, in other areas, existing stations in Canada that would typically describe themselves as introducing high levels of new music, will generally dedicate about five percent of their schedule to new and emerging artists.  Off the top, The Zone is going to draw 10 percent of its schedule from this category and Canadian artists will represent 50 percent of that 10 percent.

5787             Now, we're excited at the prospects for The Zone because the music the station is going to play, some of which you saw in the video, is almost completely unavailable in Saskatoon.  In fact, I think we were a little surprised at how unavailable it is when we looked at some of the existing YCR stations in the country.

5788             The newly launched Z103.5 in Halifax and the Beat in Vancouver.  And we compared songs, we'll take ‑‑ do the Beat off the top, songs the Beat was playing during the week of October 18th to 31st and compared that to their availability, the availability of those songs in Saskatoon.  83.2 percent were not heard in Saskatchewan's largest city.  Of the artists on the Beat's playlist, 79.9 percent were not heard in Saskatoon.  And the equivalent numbers from Z103.5 in Halifax are 79.9 percent and 78.8 percent, so we're very excited at the opportunity that awaits this radio station in Saskatoon.

5789             And the final sort of the leg of the table, as it were, is The Zone spoken word programming.  Spoken word and its relevance is a very important and key distinguishing element of a radio station like The Zone.  We will be running less general talk and much more discussion of the music and the artists because it's very central to the experience of these people.  It's an important part of their lives, which you witness every day in the ‑‑ essentially the trouble that they go to currently to find this music.

5790             I mean, you know, you got to spend some time to search it.  I mean, there are even Internet programs, now, as you know, that if you like a particular genre or combination of genres, will go run the net and find a new band who has just put up a website that you can access and download.  And I think we have an opportunity to, you know, help in that area.  So talk about the music and the artists is important.

5791             Our on‑air delivery is going to be entertaining and information rich with content that appeals to this demographic because we're going to focus on topics relevant to the younger listener in Saskatoon.

5792             And the last point is another very key component of the radio station.  As I was having my music related discussions with those who are active in the music world in Saskatoon, I had a very telling conversation with one individual who works within the scene because we were, you know, just talking about what do you think about what's going on and such, and he said something that was of great interest to me.  He said, you know, people do listen to the radio in Saskatoon, he said, but I find, he said, that everything seems to be targeted over the heads of the youth audience.  It's not necessarily that it's bad or there is anything wrong with it, it's just not coming from their point of view.  And that led to the observation that there was a huge void for this demographic in Saskatoon to get their fix about music, about films that interest them about any sort of cultural events.  It's just not a top‑line message in the Saskatoon radio or other medias.  And that's simply because they ‑‑ it's not a primary focus for them, it just isn't.

5793             So I think he ‑‑ he didn't use the word stoked.  He used the word starved when he said, kids are really starved for cultural outlets in the city.

5794             So those are really some of the key elements that distinguish the radio station and the reason that it's put together is not because we think it's a good idea.  It's because that is the behaviour and the taste and the interest as young people today are displaying them.  And we think if we reflect that, plug into that, that The Zone is going to be very successful in Saskatoon.

5795             MR. OLSTROM:  If I can add to that as well.  We know Saskatoon is a very young market.  In fact, median age is younger than anywhere else in Canada.  And 67 percent of the population is under the age of 45.  The 12 to 34 cell that we are looking to target comprises 41.3 percent of the population in Saskatoon and there is a station in the market that does serve that demographic to some extent.  Their median age, I believe, is approximately 34 years of age.  The median age of this radio station of The Zone is actually 24 years of age, 24.6, so rounded out either way.  And we believe that there is a significant youth audience there for us to be successful and it also leads to what we found out on the retail side in terms of what's been expressed to us in terms of a demand in the marketplace to serve that younger demographic.

5796             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Well, thank you for that thorough response.  In light of you raising the issue of the demo, you are targeting perhaps one of the most difficult.  We heard throughout the radio review that, in particular, the 12 to 17 year olds just ‑‑ radio is not part of their language, it's not part of their everyday habit.  Is this the answer to bring that 12 to 17 year old back to radio?

5797             MR. OLSTROM:  Well, we hope it's a portion of it.  Harvard, as you know, has been before the Commission on a couple of occasions with a youth targeted format and we believe that it is vital and incumbent upon us to ensure that we are bringing back the future radio listeners and maybe I can turn to Debra McLaughlin to speak a little bit about this audience and their needs and wants and what's missing.

5798             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Well, first I would like to say there is no panacea.

5799             We're not proposing that we found it, but we do know that music is a key driver and as much as iPods and the Internet offer them an opportunity to find the music, information is also important.  And I was just reviewing some research that suggested that the uptake in satellite radio that was considered to be maybe an area of interest, despite the financial implications ‑‑ sorry, I think I'm catching your bug, I'll get that later ‑‑ has slowed down somewhat simply because there is a need also to have local information.

5800             And when I go out and do research ‑‑ and I didn't do focus groups in this market, but just recently I have been across the country doing focus groups in the youth format, local radio still has potential, but it is music that's the driver and, you know, if ‑‑ you know, if we could open up the spectrum, have unlimited stations, perhaps the best thing to do would be to have a station in every format, but ultimately that's not possible.  And that's not how they're living.  They would be flipping from station to station, making none of them really viable.

5801             So the way to look at this is to try and put it together in the way they're experiencing life, in the way that Gary has described it, and to create an opportunity for them at least to find something in the spectrum, and with the local news driving it, we think this will bring them back.

5802             And, you know, just so you know there is a real live test, the Beat in Vancouver, which is a client of mine, had a very narrow focus for several years.  They were licensed as Urban.  They stayed within that genre.  They covered all spectrums of those genres, all the sub ones that Gary has talked about.  It's when they added CHR that their shares started to move up.

5803             And you may recall in Edmonton, we were there, and we were talking about a blended format and when that hearing was over, there was several youth stations in the market suddenly and over time the ones that did the best were the ones that expanded their music selections rather than focussed in.

5804             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

5805             Do you see any overlap between this proposal and those of the other applicants and any overlap with any of the incumbent radio stations?

5806             MR. OLSTROM:  There would be some overlap with the Rawlinson‑Hildebrand trust as they are proposing a CHR format.  From what I understand of their application, CHR tends to be higher in repetition, tends to be a little bit older and demographic than what we are proposing.

5807             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And with any of the incumbent radio stations, do you see any overlap?

5808             MR. OLSTROM:  There would be some overlap on the younger end with C95.

5809             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.

5810             MR. OLSTROM:  But as I mentioned, if you take a look at the median age of each station, it's considerably separated.

5811             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So you see it as a minimal overlap on both ‑‑

5812             MR. OLSTROM:  We went into the market and looked at the opportunities in the marketplace and we felt that an older demographic format, we looked at adult standards, and we felt that an older targeted radio station would impact the incumbents more greatly, and hence the choice of focusing on the youth demographic as well, as well as our belief in programming to that demographic.  It was going to be the least impactful in the marketplace.

5813             MS McLAUGHLIN:  If I could just add, one of the important things, as I said before, is the music driving this, and Gary referred to some duplication analysis we did.  And if you look at the typical playlist of a YCR chart, I believe Gary, you have the numbers before you, but in the area of 80 percent of the playlist of the YCR from Halifax and the YCR from Vancouver is not being played in this market.  That is a huge gap to put a radio station in and it allows, with all of this room and all of this music, to create a very unique identity that won't affect their brand at all.

5814             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

5815             Just one question of clarification on your CTD commitments; $140,000 over seven years for the University of Saskatchewan scholarships.  Will Harvard participate in any way in the selection of who will receive those scholarships?

5816             MR. COWIE:  We have requested that one of those scholarships be available to an Aboriginal person; however, I must tell you that currently there are none registered in that particular program.  Our intention would be to continue to offer the scholarships with the understanding that it will be used in part to attract Aboriginal persons to that program and would be used for that purpose.

5817             We have that undertaking from the department, but they also came back to us and said very clearly, we do not have any currently, and have not had for some years, but the University is trying to integrate Aboriginal students into some of these various programs and this one in particular.  So we expect that during the term of this licence, at least, that direction will be followed through.

5818             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And it's not as if that scholarship won't be awarded if it's not to an Aboriginal student?

5819             MR. COWIE:  Oh, no, the scholarships will be awarded.  And the choice of the scholarship will be by the Department at the University.

5820             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

5821             News and spoken word.  You say 126 hours of local with no automated programming?

5822             MR. OLSTROM:  That is correct.

5823             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And of that two hours and 32 minutes will be news, will be pure news?

5824             MR. OLSTROM:  Pure news is two hours, 32 and a half minutes.

5825             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And is that news 100 percent local?

5826             MR. OLSTROM:  The news will be approximately an 80/20 split, so in other words, 20 percent will make up International, National stories of that nature.

5827             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  In your application you say that the Saskatoon station will provide coverage of provincially relevant news stories from the surrounding area for broadcast on the Regina station.  Is the reverse true?  Will the Regina station provide any news to the Saskatoon station?

5828             MR. OLSTROM:  What we see as synergy here with news, obviously Regina being the provincial capital.  We having ‑‑ Harvard having a significant news gathering operation in Regina, being able to feed stories to Saskatoon, stories of relevance that impact the Saskatoon and area.  We also see that Saskatoon being able ‑‑ as a bigger business centre, being able to feed business stories from our news department to our operation here in Regina.

5829             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So would those stories coming from Regina be part of that 20 percent or would you still consider that to be local news?

5830             MR. OLSTROM:  No, that would be more ‑‑ I guess that would be more on the local regional side of things because it is impacting ‑‑ I mean, Regina, Saskatoon is almost local when we get down to it.

5831             MR. COWIE:  Commissioner Gugini, this group is interested in what the Government does.  They don't like a lot of it, but they're interested in what the Government does, so that we think is an important part of it.

5832             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you anticipate any other synergies with your Regina station?

5833             MR. OLSTROM:  We do.  I would like to turn to Tina Svedahl who can maybe speak to the synergies that we believe there are between the two operations.

5834             MS SVEDAHL:  Yes, it's obvious with Saskatoon being so close to Regina that there are synergies in the areas of accounting and administration, which makes sense to have Regina be our headquarters and centralize that information.  Also on the regional sales side, our regional sales oversight will come from Regina.  And lastly, our oversight on the technical and engineering side is centralized in Regina, so definitely those synergies exist.

5835             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I think you also mentioned in your application that there might be some synergies with your recently licensed Calgary station.

5836             MS SVEDAHL:  Same type of synergies exist.

5837             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Same type?

5838             MS SVEDAHL:  Well, definitely ‑‑ not so much on the regional sales for Calgary, of course, but definitely in the accounting and administration areas.

5839             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

5840             Do you have an estimate of the percentage of advertising that you think would come from existing radio ‑‑ from the existing stations in the market?

5841             MR. OLSTROM:  I would like to turn to Karen Broderick to speak a little bit about that and then maybe have Debra follow up with that.

5842             MS BRODERICK:  We actually haven't broken it down into a percentage, but what we do know that with the population growth of Saskatoon continuing to increase, that the skew towards the younger demographics will also continue, so by us grow in tuning, we in fact will be able to grow revenue, advertising revenue in the marketplace

5843             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  But you  haven't broken it down between how much of that revenue would come from existing radio stations or how much would come from new advertisers?

5844             MS BRODERICK:  We actually did do a revenue breakdown and that was ‑‑ existing would be 35 percent; new advertisers 30 percent; other media 20; and increased by just 15 percent.

5845             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay, thank you.  How much of a challenge is it going to be for you as a stand‑alone station in the Saskatoon market with the Hildebrand/Rawlco trust as you called it earlier?

5846             MR. COWIE:  Well, when we began to clearly define ourselves as being interested, for the most part, in the younger demographics because we believe that therein lies an opportunity and there also lies a challenge.  Repatriation to radio is going to be difficult.

5847             But, you know, I have a granddaughter in Winnipeg who is working to become a professional singer and sings with the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra, for example, but also if I listen to her iPod, I would hear our format.  And I would have some comfort if she wasn't listening to her iPod in the car when she was driving around Saskatoon, but it ‑‑ we think it's doable.

5848             And, quite frankly, I think radio in Canada has just not paid attention to this demographic because it was easier to everybody be massed in the middle where most of the money is.  And there is a temptation to go there, and why wouldn't you?  Radio, after all, is a business, but we think there is an opportunity and we think we can make a business of this, particularly if we have enough critical mass to do it.  And the synergies are going to be important, particularly synergies of thought, and that's why this team has been together now for five years.

5849             We have thought these things through, we have talked to people.  Our on‑street activity through  Gary McGowan, for example, has been critical to our planning.  Debra McLaughlin, who I think is the best market research person in the country, really has a handle on it.  She knows the music better than most of the programmers do.

5850             So we're confident it is not going to be easy.  We're showing a projected loss over the first seven years of this licence, but we think that investment will be returned over time.

5851             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Mr. Cowie and team, thank you very much.  Madam Chair, those are all my questions, thank you.

5852             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑Chair Arpin.

5853             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

5854             In the video we hear one youth's testimony saying that what he hates the most is advertising.  And what are your plans to satisfy his feelings?

5855             MR. COWIE:  There would have been a temptation to take that part out.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

5856             MR. COWIE:  There is no question, if you ask 15 youth in a room, you're not going to get a unanimous decision for advertising, but I think if you give them something back for it, we can erase that reluctance.  And the ‑‑ if we give them what they want, which is variety, new music, and people talking to them instead of over their heads, we think we can solve that problem.

5857             MS BRODERICK:  If I can just add to that, we have scheduled, actually, only eight minutes of advertising per hour, which is actually, you know, on the lower end.  And, in addition to that, just by the nature of our format and the advertisers that we're going to target, it's been researched that if you make the advertising relevant to the audience you seek to serve, the tune‑out factor tends to be less.

5858             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I could understand that when you've got to launch the station, obviously, you will even have difficulties selling an average of eight minutes per hour, but if you were to be more successful than you expect, then will you be ‑‑ not be tempted to increase that eight minutes per hour to something more?

5859             MR. OLSTROM:  Commissioner Arpin, let me speak just on a reference point to one of our radio stations here in Regina, The Wolf, which currently is the number 1 station 12 plus, number 1 station 2554.  It runs eight minutes of commercials an hour.  I'm a programmer at heart and we will not exceed that; the rates go up.

5860             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And the Saskatoon market will sustain the rate increase?  The economy is that strong in the ‑‑

5861             MR. COWIE:  We believe it is.  There is an opportunity there and the ‑‑ and I guess what attracted us on another level is that Saskatchewan has a history of going up and down.  You know, there has been a lot of talk about PST in the last few days.  The history in this province is that for many, many years there was always a reduction in the provincial sales tax prior to an election, but before the next election it was back.  I'm not suggesting that will happen in this case, but I would be ‑‑ wouldn't be surprised.

5862             But I think the pool is large enough that even if there were those periodic downturns in Saskatoon, that market share is big enough that we can survive in there; that there is a business there that will sustain us through downturns.  And also, as an extension with that, would help in sustaining Regina ‑‑ a Regina station over time where downturns are more prominent.

5863             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I'm sure that you have done various studies to see what is the advertising ‑‑ radio advertising capacity of the Saskatoon market and what are the incumbents taking at this time?  Could you share your views with us on that?

5864             MR. COWIE:  I think the numbers you have been hearing are pretty much what the reality is.  The marketplace provincially is ‑‑ or for the two major cities is probably in the 36 million dollar area, and with the larger portion of that going to Saskatoon.

5865             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And, as you said earlier, your financials are showing that you will be losing money throughout the first licence term.  Is it acceptable from a corporate standpoint for an organization of the size of Harvard and Harvard Development?

5866             MR. COWIE:  I don't think Mr. Hill advocates losing money at any time, but through the synergies north, south in the province, we will be deriving new incomes from Saskatoon that come to Regina that we are not now getting.  And that will be coming into our Regina station as part of regional buys.  We would see, in terms of our internal accounting, that those revenues which are new and are generated in Saskatoon for Regina might very well be seen to as offsetting for the most part those losses in the early years in Saskatoon, so we're ‑‑ these numbers are quite acceptable to us, presuming that's what they are, and that the growth in regional revenue between the two markets will help offset those.

5867             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And if, for any given reason, the format doesn't deliver to your expectation, will you be tempted to move it more towards the centre and compete against the incumbent really to get a better market share?  You have the experience, you're already a leader here in Regina, so you have some knowledge of the market conditions and you surely are in a better position than many other of the applicants that are outside the region.

5868             MR. COWIE:  We don't like the consequences of changing format.  We thought this through very carefully and I guess how I would answer this is in one word, we are patient, and this is going to take some time to grow, we know that, but we know the rewards are there if we stay the course and we would be very reluctant.  It would take a long time of beating our heads against the wall before we would turn away.

5869             So we believe completely that this format will work and you can expect us to stay there and make it work.

5870             MR. ARPIN:  And if the incumbents who are here today in the room and obviously have studied your applications back and forth, are, gee, there is a hole, we never saw it, and they were to start moving towards that hole, do you have an alternative plan if you were to be granted the licence?

5871             MR. COWIE:  No, we don't expect they will go there, but if even if they do, they will be ‑‑ they will be dealing with a format, a group of people who are completed dedicated to that and not a piece of another format.

5872             So they would be unwise to make that choice, I would think, and if they did, we will take them on.

5873             MR. ARPIN:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Cowie.

5874             Madam Chair...?

5875             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

5876             Commissioner Pennefather.

5877             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

5878             Good morning, Mr. Cowie, ladies and gentlemen.

5879             I wanted just to pursue the discussion we have been having throughout the hearing on indicators for the capacity of a market to absorb a new station or not, and the impact on existing stations.

5880             My first question, just to see if I understood your remarks this morning, that you list the indicators that we would use to make that assessment, but you say the most critical element in terms of viability is retail sales.  Other intervenors may, in this market and perhaps Regina as well, indicate market profitability is the most important indicator.  Can you expand on your point?

5881             I think there may be three parts to this answer and I think I'll start with Debra McLaughlin.

5882             MS McLAUGHLIN:  If I understand your question, you would like a ranking of the indicators in terms of the relevancy in this proceeding?

5883             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  You have already ‑‑ I believe these comments already ranked by saying this, "The most critical element would be retail sales," and I wondered why you said that.

5884             MS McLAUGHLIN:  That comment would be made in regards to the very close relationship between radio broadcaster ability to generate revenue in the market, and there being availability in the market to support it, because retail sales, the lag time is three to 12 months in terms of reactions, generally, and radios, as I believe you heard yesterday, is typically the first of the media to be cancelled should there be any change in retail sales.  And so if the retail sales sector is going to be growing, it bodes very well for radio advertising revenue.  Radio has a shorter lead time, it's very local, it's portable.  People ‑‑ it's almost a point of purchased material in the sense that people can be walking by a store, listening to the radio, and be dragged in because of a sale to be attracted to something.

5885             Because it has such entirely local aspects to it, and because it has immediacy to it, it means that retailers tend to use it more, and so if there is any changes in that retail environment, radio is the first impacted.

5886             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And that would be the reason for the seeming ranking that you gave here?

5887             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Yes.

5888             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  In looking at the way to analyze the markets, I think in terms of Regina you were concerned about the possibility of a new station in that market, whereas obviously in this market you see there is a possibility.  Could you clarify, Mr. Cowie, where you see the key differences?

5889             MR. COWIE:  One of them is the one we just talked about at the levels of retail activity in the marketplace.  The differences are Saskatoon's population is growing, Regina's population is not.  And when I say it is not, if it is, it's very slow and will tend to be about the same number it has been for many years.

5890             The economic activity in terms of business leadership now is by and large in the Saskatoon area, somewhat based on the resource opportunities in the north and so on, but Saskatoon has proudly on its own built its way past Regina over time and as by design.  I mean, they wanted to do that, so their whole focus has been to become the economic centre of the province.

5891             So population is part of it.  Retail sales is one part of it.  And I guess the other that you always have to measure is the retail plant and is it growing, is it strong enough to support a new station, so the two markets have divided; one is growing, one isn't.

5892             We would be quite happy if both markets were growing equally and Saskatchewan was having this revival that everybody has been talking about.  We haven't seen it yet.  We would be quite happy with that, but the reality is that Regina is kind of stuck in second gear at the moment.  We hope that will change.

5893             What we ask the Commission to do in the short term was to not issue a licence there, but to monitor it for a reasonable period of time.  We are we ‑‑ do believe in competition and free enterprise and the need for, wherever possible, increased programming opportunities.  And at that time, if those elements change, we would be delighted.

5894             MS PENNEFATHER:  Thank you very much.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

5895             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

5896             Here comes my normal question.  Would you agree to a COL that you would have 100 percent live where ‑‑ during the broadcast week?

5897             MR. COWIE:  Yes.

5898             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

5899             I wanted to talk about Saskatoon and how it is different from Regina and particularly in relation to the Aboriginal population.  And of course we have an Urban reserve in Saskatoon, the head of the FSIN, Waneskewin, and then we have what I'm going to call friction between the police and First Nation's people, and of course the whole issue of the Indian Gaming Association having applied twice for a Casino in Saskatoon.  And I was on the Board when it was refused a second time by the people of Saskatoon and it was quite a, I'm going to say, disturbing situation.  And I'm happy to recognize here that you have recognized that difference.  You have APTN with you and you also talked about cross‑cultural information.  Can you tell me more about that?

5900             MR. COWIE:  That was in part at the root of that discovery in our program schedule.  I was born and raised in Prince Albert.  Many of my friends and neighbours were either Metis or First Nations, and we grew up very nicely together.  We understand the problems in Saskatoon.  As a matter of fact, just in an anecdotal way, I started my career in Saskatoon 50 years ago this March.  And so I have always been watching the city.  It's been home for many years and so on.  Part of this program will deal with that or will attempt to deal with that.

5901             I think we can promote within our listenership, you know, levels of respect; get the groups together, and make sure that we promote from the proper organizations that they have discovery opportunities from one culture to another and not ‑‑ not separately and totally for the Aboriginal relationships there, but largely for that, but for other reasons too.

5902             So we are cognizant of the issues and are dedicated through, in particular, this Aboriginal mentoring program for journalists.  We don't have those voices.  We don't have them producing the Aboriginal minute.  We don't ‑‑ not yet, but we will.  So we will look for outlets to both inform on what's going on in the marketplace and to provide opportunities for voices to talk about it; not in talk show formats or anything like that.

5903             MR. OLSTROM:  Commissioner Cram, that leads to the ‑‑ sort of the Enrichment Program that we've designed, which is there to promote that.

5904             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And can you describe it more fully for me?

5905             MR. OLSTROM:  Excuse me, sorry? THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can you describe it more fully, the Enrichment Program?

5906             MR. OLSTROM:  I will turn to Daryl to speak to it a little bit.

5907             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thanks.

5908             MR. HOLIEN:  Really, what the Enrichment Program is, an opportunity to look at the cultural traditions.  It could be the venues around the city.  It could be traditions of the Aboriginal people and that would be blended throughout ‑‑ throughout the program day.

5909             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I was looking after Mr. Howe's report with the Saskatoon radio application and it would appear to me that a large and growing proportion of your projected audience demographic would be First Nations Aboriginal.  Have you done any work into researching Aboriginal music groups in your proposed genres, Pop, Urban, Alternative, and Modern Rock?  I saw a lot of African Americans in your video, but I didn't see ‑‑ I think there is War Party in Edmonton.  You know, there are some quite good groups.

5910             MR. COWIE:  They appeared for us at a hearing in Edmonton.

5911             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's how I know ‑‑

5912             MR. COWIE:  So we know her.

5913             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

5914             MR. OLSTROM:  I would like to have Gary McGowan maybe speak to that a little bit because that's Gary's area of expertise.  He works in that area.

5915             MR. McGOWAN:  Well, I didn't bring any firm numbers with me.  I can tell you anecdotally working for the period of time I have in the independent music community that, interestingly enough, it is a couple of a very defined music genres that really seem to speak.  You referenced War Party who are from a First Nation's reserve south of Edmonton.  I'm sure if we called up the Aboriginal Music Awards list, you know, there is quite a number.  And you see that the musics that seem to attract First Nation's youth are somewhat widespread.  I found that it's the most defined music genres that really seem to appeal, be a place where you want to go.  And they tend to be Rap and, to a lesser degree, Hip Hop and in many cases, Metal.  And I think that's because both those musics allow you lots of scope for expression.  In the case of Metal, especially real hard core screamo kind of stuff, you know, there is a sense of immersion in it and I think, as we all know, there are ‑‑ you know, because of some of the issues that face the First Nations, there is a lot of emotion there.  And if you're a young person, it gives you a chance to kind of get that out into a biserial level.

5916             When you reference War Party, and certainly there is many, many other, you know, both DJs, MCs and, you know, Rap crews, that work in the community across the country; it's the level of verbiage that you can put out in a track that really allows you the freedom to address a lot of issues that you face and I think that's why ‑‑ that's been my experience, as I say, anecdotally.

5917             So I guess to draw back the radio station, and our interest in independent music and our commitment to it, I know that the Saskatoon music scene has always, you know, traditionally been very healthy.  I think, you know, on a mainstream level, we have seen a couple of Canadian Idol finalists come out of there.  You know, we have seen other applicants who have been, you know, doing some other things with that.  At a very street level, I found that the sense of community and volunteerism to bring music to Saskatoon from elsewhere, and to put it ‑‑ and to create it within a community is amazing.

5918             To give you one example, there is a group called, The International Group of Pals, they have a My Space Page.  These kids are, in many cases, working their, you know, six, seven, $8 an hour jobs and putting their own money on the line to bring touring acts to Saskatoon that in points west and points east are being done as, you know, hard promoted show, contracted show guarantees, in let's say Winnipeg or in Edmonton or Calgary that might normally skip over the Province of Saskatchewan because of perception from maybe some of the larger companies is that, you know,  there is not enough ‑‑ you know, can we do it there.  And these guys are pooling their resources and getting the word out on the Internet through posters and flyers to make this happen.  And there is a lot of that happening to draw artists to Saskatoon, which is a very cross pollination thing and it's also happening both within the First Nation's community and on up.  There are basement studios.  There is quite a community support, and, again, my experience has been it's not necessarily getting a lot of help within the community at the moment, but it's there.  And, if it's there, and we can draw it out, I think that's going to ‑‑ I think people will be surprised again what they find in that city.

5919             MR. COWIE:  Commissioner Cram, I think the assurance we would give the Commission is this.  We philosophically have an on‑ramp philosophy and you have seen it in other things we do with Voice Print, with training Aboriginal journalists, and other plans we have for the future, so we're cognizant of the issues here and the lack of opportunity.  And we ‑‑ that certainly will be very close to our thinking as we ‑‑ as the station builds and grows over time.

5920             MR. OLSTROM:  I would like to ‑‑ actually Debra McLaughlin would like to just give a little bit more background.

5921             MS McLAUGHLIN:  The only thing I wanted to share with you is in working with APTN both on the mentoring program and just discussing what they needed, one of the things that excited them the most about this application was the talent search in this market.  Because it's through this that Aboriginal artists who perhaps weren't aware that they could have access to recording or couldn't find the funding or, you know, creating their own My Space Page without understanding the funding elements, would have their first big break.  And it's this talent search in a market where the population is so clearly available and the talent pool is there that will be truly helpful.

5922             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

5923             You now have your ‑‑ sorry, Vice‑Chair Arpin...?

5924             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I apologize, I will follow with one question to you, Mr. Cowie.  When you said that the Saskatoon/Regina market altogether are picking about 36 million dollars in advertising revenues, but that ‑‑ okay, that's for the current size ‑‑ that's the current advertising pie, but how do you see the ‑‑ now, surely you're thinking that there is either money left that nobody has been taking because they are sold out or they ‑‑ or ‑‑ and what is the money left for you in the ‑‑ in Saskatoon?

5925             MR. COWIE:  Thank you, Commissioner.

5926             I will also have Karen Broderick speak to this, but the youth market, as I hate to use this analogy again as I did in Calgary, the shallow end of the pool is reasonably untapped.  We had a look yesterday at the number of businesses in Saskatoon and we won't name any of them obviously, that would be available to support this radio station based simply on our demographic as we go into the marketplace.  We're going to have to obviously attract revenues from outside of that as well, but we are surprised by the number.

5927             I think there were over 200 businesses that operate in both markets currently and over 50 of those were directly inside our genre, so we think that there is an ample base for us to attach ourselves to, to begin and to grow over time, but the ‑‑ I would think that there is ‑‑ there is room for us to, you know, stretch those limits a little bit on the upper side and just to see what we can do there, but we're comfortable that the market is there for us.

5928             MS BRODERICK:  If I could just add to that.  We've identified a fair number of youth advertisers in both markets, but just specifically speaking of Saskatoon, the ones that we spoke to, a lot of them are not current users of radio because they don't necessarily feel that the options they have are ‑‑ they're not ‑‑ their customers are not listening to the stations in the market, so they go to other mediums to actually, you know, advertise.

5929             So there is that opportunity, but in addition to what Bruce was saying about the synergies, there are a number of retailers that operate in both markets, so we see the sales side of the synergy is probably one the most important.  We see that there is a sales synergy between a proposed station in Saskatoon, plus our station in Regina, CFWF, because the demo in Regina is a wider 1834; Saskatoon being 1234, there will be synergies between those two stations.

5930             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  You said those advertisers are going into other radio.  They're surely not going print, the youth generally don't ‑‑ generally speaking don't read the paper, the daily papers, and the weekly papers or community papers?  Where do they go?

5931             MS BRODERICK:  No, what they were telling us is they use flyers or, you know, they do outdoor advertising, transit, that kind of stuff, not necessarily newspaper, because you're right, the youth market isn't high newspaper readers.

5932             MR. OLSTROM:  Maybe if Gary McGowan, just a little anecdotal information that he was able to uncover in the Saskatoon marketplace.

5933             MR. McGOWAN:  During the Calgary hearing, one of the interveners that appeared on our behalf was a company called Union Events, who are a regional concert promotion company specializing in new music.  And they often build ‑‑ you know, their own crew is across the west or sometimes work in tandem with House of Blues on things.

5934             So I actually spoke to them and I said, you know, Woody, I have noticed that you play more shows in Saskatoon than you play in Regina, for starters.  What's the ‑‑ what's your sense of the market?  Like, how do you work in it?  And they said, well, you know, it's challenging to use that word because they said, our top line media choices are really limited, to nonexistent.

5935             Typically what might happen in a larger market is you have AC Decks coming and you will build your media relationship with a print outlet and a radio station that's, you know, format or audience target applicable, have a big concert announcement and start giving away some tickets, gets the buzz building really quickly.  And they gave me a couple of examples that both kind of reflect how it has to work now and maybe what the potential of the market is.

5936             There is a Hip Hop artist called Atmosphere who is American, but if you had to equate him with somebody, I would describe him as being very similar to Chaos in the sense that this is thinking man's Hip Hop.  It's not about, you know, the bling and all this.  I mean, it's very about, you know, politics and issues of today.  And they played him through Saskatoon in the fall and the act sold more tickets in Saskatoon than it did in either Edmonton or Calgary.  And there was absolutely no radio support on it.  There is ‑‑ I think maybe they bought some space in Planet S, which is the weekly there, but that was pretty much it.  That was based on getting some posters on some lamp posts and some fliers in the record stores and let ‑‑

5937             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Word of mouth?

5938             MR. McGOWAN:  Word of mouth, letting it go from there because that was the only option they had and they sold a thousand tickets in a market of ‑‑ you know, a quarter of the size of those other cities, both of which also have very viable urban music scenes.

5939             On the other hand, we had an act like Pennywise come through, which apparently was a white‑knuckle ride for them because there was no radio support available.  You know, it's just not an act that the current rock station would play because it's just a little too far to the left of any need they have, but yet that act is a corner stone of the third wave of the punk rock, as it's called, that came out of California starting in the '80s and are much admired by people who respect that kind of music.  And whereas it started blowing up all over the place in, you know, Winnipeg and Edmonton and Calgary, I think the on‑sale was very weak and we held on, we only did, like, 15 percent of the capacity on the first day.  We thought, do we have to cancel this show, and then the word of mouth kicked in again.  And it still didn't perform as well as it did in some of the other markets, but they got away with it.

5940             So I said, well, you know, how do you feel about things, and they said, well really, you know, I think the word heartache was described in terms of trying to approach a lot of mainstream media in Saskatoon right now, because they said, you know, just so much of what we do falls outside of their parameters, but yet there is an audience for it.  If we had an outlet, I said obviously, and described the radio station to them.  I said, yeah, obviously that would be a big help.

5941             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you.

5942             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, Mr. Cowie, your two minutes to shine.

5943             MR. COWIE:  Tank you, Madam Chair, members of the Commission.  Our conclusion after reading all of the applications is that there is an opportunity for a new service in Saskatoon.  What that opportunity is and how big it is, in our mind, are the two pivotal questions in this processes.  Saskatoon leads the province in terms of all key economic indicators and they are our forecast to continue to improve; however, to suggest that because of two spectacular years Saskatoon is suddenly in the league of Alberta markets is to overstate the case.

5944             It is this reality and obvious need to create listening opportunities for an increasingly disenfranchised youth that guided the design of our proposition.  The Zone is the best choice for this market for several reasons.  One, it serves the market 12 to 24 that is being left behind; is more immediately lucrative, demographics are served by the existing broadcasters; a systemic issue that must be addressed if the future of radio broadcasting is to be secured.

5945             The 12 to 24 population base in Saskatoon is large, over 40 percent of the market, and is underserved.  This means that even if the economic forecasts are not as rosy as suggested by some, we would have a large enough base from which to draw an audience and develop revenues.

5946             By addressing a clearly underserved niche audience, we can enter Saskatoon with less impact on the other applicants, over the other applicants, who seek to compete directly with the existing services.  And, most importantly, the format we propose has scored very high in demand test, fully 81 percent of the 15 to 34 population stated that they would definitely or probably listen.  It is a format that is working extremely well in both Vancouver and Halifax and is drawing young people back to radio.

5947             In closing, we would like to add that we think the test of all of the applications before you should be how well the proposal meets the consumer needs and economic conditions of the market.  In this case, there should also be another consideration.  Harvard Broadcasting has long wanted to address the imbalance that exists in the province in terms of ownership and opportunity, and Saskatoon represents the best and perhaps the only chance to do that.

5948             We operate in a province where 27 of 33 stations are owned by Rawlco and Goldenwest and, in combination, they are a formidable opponent.  Well, I think we can safely argue they are based on numbers of stations that arguments based on the numbers of stations owned or stations per capita have been dismissed in this hearing.  Size does matter when it comes to negotiating advertising buys.

5949             And so we ask the Commission to consider the reason behind all of our recent applications; the need to develop critical mass when deciding whether we should be licensed and ask you to consider this.  We know the Saskatoon market.  We know that the station in the market will provide us with access to regional advertising buys that we do not now get.  It offers synergies with our Regina service that will benefit both operations.  By giving us access to the largest market in the province, it corrects an imbalance and gives us the necessary resources to serve both markets.

5950             We hope that Saskatchewan star is on the rise as so many sources seem to indicate.  Saskatoon is leading in the growth in the province and, by all accounts, it will continues as long as this turn around goes on.  We ask the Commission to allow us to participate in as much anticipated recovery by granting us this licence.  We have survived the bad years and we look forward to celebrating the good ones by creating new listening opportunities in Saskatoon.

5951             Thank you very much for your time and attention.  Thank you very much.

5952             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

5953             Yes, we will be taking 15 minute break.  By my watch it is 10 to 10, so we will reconvene at 5 after 10.

‑‑‑ Recess at 0950 / Suspension à 0950

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1005 / Reprise à 1005

5954             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary...?

5955             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

5956             We will now proceed with item 19 on the agenda, which is an application by Standard Radio Inc. for a licence to operate an English language commercial FM radio programming undertaking in Saskatoon.

5957             The new station would operate on frequency 96.3 megahertz, channel 242 C 1 with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts nondirectional antenna, antenna height of 179.1 meters.

5958             Appearing for the Applicant is Ms Sharon Taylor, who will introduce her colleagues and you will have 20 minutes for your presentation.  Ms Taylor...?

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

5959             MS TAYLOR:  Thank you.

5960             Good morning, Chair Cram, members of the Commission, staff.  My name is Sharon Taylor.  I am the Vice‑President and General Manager of Standard Radio Stations in Manitoba, which include two FM radio stations in Winnipeg and two FM radio stations in Brandon.

5961             Before we begin I would like to introduce you to the members of our team, which has changed slightly since you saw us for the Regina application.

5962             To my right, Diane Morris, Standards Radio Manager of Finances for Western Canada.

5963             To my left, Norine Mitchell, our Retail Sales Manager in Brandon

5964             To Norine's left is Brian Depoe.  Brian is the Vice‑President of Adult Contemporary Programming for Standard Broadcasting.  Brian has 13 years experience programming the format, is a leading expert in Canada, and is the Program Director for a flagship EZ Rock station in Toronto, one of Canada's most successful radio stations.

5965             And as an aside I think it was Brian who said he came for a CRTC hearing and a CWC convention broke out.

5966             Directly behind me is Leah Singleton, one of our Department Heads in Winnipeg,  and the Traffic Manager for our Manitoba cluster.  Leah is our Aboriginal Advisor on this application.

5967             To Leah's right is Betty Selin, Regional News Director for Standard Radio based in Vernon, BC.  Betty is the recent winner of the Jack Webster Fellowship.  She has also won BC RTNDA awards  last year for best small market newscast.

5968             To Leah's left is Janet Lazaris, Principal of the Research Strategy Group in Toronto.  Janet handled our research.  This is our standard team.

5969             We're very pleased to be here today to apply for a current based soft adult contemporary radio station for Saskatoon.  Our radio station will place a strong emphasis on current music and new and emerging Canadian talent.  We will refer to this station as EZ Rock, which is our very successful brand for the format.

 

5970             At this point I had planned to outline for you the economic indicators proving that Saskatoon is enjoying a robust and growing economy and is healthy enough to withstand another broadcaster.  However, over the last couple of days and during the four phases of the Regina hearings, all of the applicants have discussed the strength of the economy in the Province at length.  The intervenors have discussed the lack of strength in the economy at length.  And the Commission has sifted through what I can only imagine is countless statistics that seemingly represent both points of view.

5971             Our journey a couple of hours up the road to Saskatoon will change the point of view of some of the parties that you hear from today, but not ours.  While Saskatoon and Regina are two very distinct cities which enjoy a healthy rivalry, we believe it's a great time to be doing business in either of them, or better yet, both.

5972             One of the trades that differentiate Saskatoon from Regina is the incredible biotechnology industry here.  In fact, the biotechnology industry might, in fact, best symbolize the diversification that Saskatoon has achieved.  By combining its historical ag roots with cutting edge technology, this city's biotechnology industry has grown with strength and with speed.

5973             Saskatoon is currently recognized as one of the top biotechnology centers in the world, attracting over 30 percent of all research spending in Canada.  Saskatoon has also proved to be a terrific location for information technology companies.  Over 70 information technology companies have head offices in Saskatoon, providing a variety of services including programming, software, systems integration, data processing, information retrieval, maintenance and repair, to a wide range of market sectors in Saskatoon.

5974             Mining is an important industry in the region.  Exploration and mining remain ongoing for potash, uranium, gold and diamonds.  The region has almost two thirds of the world's recoverable potash reserves, and is the world's largest exporter of uranium.

5975             Saskatoon is also, as you've heard, a vibrant university town, where music and the arts not only live, but thrive.  The music in Saskatoon ‑‑ the music community in Saskatoon is loud and proud, a fact that I'm certain was not overlooked when it was announced that the Juno Awards would originate from Saskatoon next year.

5976             It is an exciting time to be living and doing business in this city.  We are somewhat relieved that today there will be more groups in front of you agreeing with us on this point than arguing it.

5977             Standard Radio is a family owned and operated business and a leading Canadian broadcast company with a well‑known track record of serving the community, and the Canadian music industry.  With 51 radio stations in seven provinces in markets small, medium and large, we do truly understand the importance of local radio service.  While some of our radio stations are in major markets like Vancouver and Toronto, perhaps overlooked is that standard is very much western broadcaster with the majority of our radio stations, 34 in total, located in the west.

5978             In Manitoba I'm particularly proud of what Standard Radio has accomplished.  In Winnipeg alone we raised half a million dollars last year over just three days for our local children's hospital.  That of course is an addition to our enormous catalogue of community endeavours.

5979             For example, this past March our Program Director at Hot 103 in Winnipeg challenged each of his announcers to visit a different school every day during reading month and read to kids.  Teachers in our community love us and we support them in every way we can.

5980             Standard Radio operates in every size market there is in Canada and we will put our efforts to passionately and effectively serve our listeners, our clients, and our community up against anyone else's regardless of market size.  In preparing our application, Standard listened to the needs expressed by many members of the Saskatoon community.  We closely analyzed the Saskatoon economy and we commissioned research to accurately pinpoint what is currently missing and desired by members of this vibrant prairie community.  To highlight our research findings, Janet Lazaris.

5981             MS LAZARIS:  The purpose of our study was to help Standard Radio identify the most appropriate format for its plans to serve the Saskatoon radio market.  First our study showed that there is a viable business opportunity for two formats in Saskatoon, a modern rock station and a Soft AC format.  Both would attract a significant audience, but with a very distinct profile.  The rock station would skew towards younger men, while the Soft AC format would appeal largely to women, age 35 and over.  Of the two formats, Standard chose the Soft AC option for the following reasons:

5982             First current base Soft AC would draw a large and saleable audience.  In our research 52 percent of adults indicated that they would be either very likely or somewhat likely to turn to the easy rock format.  Five percent indicated that this type of station would become the favourite station, and 17 percent said that it would become their second choice station.

5983             Based on the favourite station response, we would project that a Soft AC format has the potential to gain a five percent share of listening among adults 18 plus in Saskatoon.  Among women age 25 to 54, the potential share rises to six percent.

5984             Second, a current base Soft AC station would add diversity to the market.  Among those who indicated that a Soft AC format would be their favourite, 70 percent felt that there is no local station that consistently plays the kind of music that suites their taste.  This dissatisfaction is further reflected in the fact that many potential core listeners to the format, that's the Soft AC format, are tuning to satellite signals, internet radio and digital music channels like Max Trax.  Forty percent of adults report listening to one or more of the nontraditional delivery methods in the past week.

5985             All in all the research indicates that Standard Soft AC format would be viable and would add a degree of diversity that would strengthen the local radio market.  Additionally, while modern rock scored higher in our research, it was also clear that a new modern rock station would attract 40 percent of its audience from the existing station CJCJ Rock 102.  Soft AC, on the other hand, would attract a fraction of that from across all of the existing stations resulting in less audience disruption to the incumbents.

5986             MS TAYLOR:  EZ Rock Saskatoon will feature artists that generally don't get air play in the city, featuring not only many of the Canadian artists that Standard Radio has supported across the country for the past several years, but new and emerging artists whose music perfectly suits this current based format.  To further illustrate, we have prepared a brief audio presentation for you.

‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip audio

5987             MR. DEPOE:  We are proposing a current based Soft AC radio service predominantly consisting of newer vocal music featuring artists such as Sarah McLaughlin, Corinne Bailey‑Rae, James Blunt and Kelly Clarkson, as well as emerging Canadian artists such as Amanda Stott and Keisha Chante.

5988             The key difference from what's available in the market now is that we propose to play roughly 60 percent new music.  CJFK, the adult contemporary station in Saskatoon plays over 90 percent gold music, meaning very limited play for new and emerging artists, particularly Canadians.  This mimics an often‑seen pattern in underserved markets.  Stations have to work harder at being all things to all people, and in doing so, become broad, unfocussed, oldies based, and unable to serve the need our research exposed for new music in the market.

5989             The EZ Rock format is a female‑focused mainstream format that enjoys success in numerous Canadian markets, owing to its commitment to family values, new music, serving the needs of the females and its target audience, and adhering to its strong brand principles.

5990             EZ Rock is one of the most consistent and steadily growing formats in Canada.  Because of the seamless blend of long established artists, together with emerging Canadian and international artists, EZ Rock Toronto and other EZ Rock stations are consistently strong performers in the markets they serve.

5991             The current based Soft AC format we propose has little duplication with current Saskatoon operations.  The EZ Rock play list includes established artists such as Elton John, Lionel Richie and Fleetwood Mac that currently have some air play in Saskatoon, but also prominently features emerging Canadian artists such as Ron Sexsmith, Keisha Chante, Matt Dusk and Tommie Swick, who don't receive enough exposure in the market, particularly with the target audience we seek to serve.

5992             The EZ Rock format is more adventurous than most traditional AC stations.  EZ Rock Edmonton, for example, was the first AC station in Canada to add James Blunt's "You're Beautiful" into regular rotation, as well as the very first AC station to play Vernon, BC native, Daniel Powter's megahit "Bad Day."

5993             EZ Rock is the perfect venue to showcase and establish emerging Canadian artists.  Over the past few years we have introduced Hip Joint, Lakota Sun, Feist, Shaye, David Usher and Kayle to our audience, to name just a few.  We've also provided many new artists with an opportunity to showcase their talents with our exclusive Loyal Listener Club Performances where we invite an audience of listeners, provide a venue, serve food and refreshments, and let the Canadian newcomer perform, all at no cost to the artist.

5994             Standard Radio also compares play lists with other like‑formatted stations in our company, so if an artist is successful in Saskatoon, we can provide the opportunity to take his or her exposure from a regional to a national level.

5995             With this proactive approach to nurturing and exposing Canadian talent and our commitment to established Canadian Superstars,  reaching and maintaining 40 percent Canadian content in this format, including 40 percent 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. Monday to Friday, is very manageable.

5996             The EZ rock format is unique and what we call family friendly.  It's a format that especially appeals to women and families and allows them to enjoy the station without the worry of being embarrassed or offended by lyrics or verbal content.  We are very proud to offer Saskatoon its first family friendly radio station.  This is the EZ Rock family friendly pledge that will be at the core of our new radio station.

5997             At EZ Rock we want you to feel safe when you're listening with your kids.  That's why we promise never to say anything that would embarrass you or make you feel uncomfortable with your family present, in fact, we guarantee it.

5998             MS TAYLOR:  I'd like to switch gears and have Norine Mitchell share with you some of the details of our sales plans for EZ Rock Saskatoon.

5999             MS MITCHELL:  Thanks, Sharon.

6000             Retail spending, population growth, building permits, and new business licences in Saskatoon show steady increases year over year with a projected GDP growth 3.8 percent in 2006.  Personal disposable incomes have been rising steadily since 2001, which supports a positive rise in retail spending.  The reduction of the PST by two points will also have an immediate and positive impact on the local retail business.

6001             When considering whether Saskatoon can support another radio station, we believe that all the positive key economic indicators are there.  I was pleased to see that Wal‑Mart is planning a 50,000 square foot expansion for their existing location, plus adding another new store in Saskatoon in 2007.

6002             Home Depot is planning a new store and tenders have just been closed on a new 31 acre retail site at the Blairmore suburban development area.

6003             Local advertisers such as Wheaton Chevrolet express support for our application, and quoting their intervention letter, "The Standard Radio organization will offer a respected professional diversified alternative to the local landscape."

6004             Beilley's Bar and Grill, one of Saskatoon's largest restaurants and night spots was adamant about having another radio station represented in Saskatoon as he felt competition is needed to make this market competitively fair and healthy.  The owner of the Midas Muffler franchise in Saskatoon stated in his intervention that, "Standard Radio Incorporated's proposed radio station would fill the void presently existing in the Saskatoon market for a soft adult contemporary FM radio station."

6005             After discussing the potential addition of Standards EZ Rock format to the Saskatoon radio landscape, with key local advertisers, I am very confident that this radio station will be met with support not just from listeners, but also the business community and local retailers.

6006             A unique format that appeals to women and families as well as the business diversity, that a national company such as Standard Radio offers will be welcomed.  Our revenue projections are conservative, realistic, and quite achievable in Saskatoon.  With Standard's financial and programming strength and expertise, we plan on working closely with our advertisers and the community to provide exactly what Saskatoon has asked for, a new, diverse voice to support this rapidly growing economy.

6007             MS SELIN:  Madam Chair, we believe this application offers a unique news component, in part due to the resources we will have in the region and across the country.  Our strength is our commitment to reflect the community of Saskatoon and surrounding area and to bring a new independent editorial voice to the region.  Our team will focus on local news.

6008             But one of our other advantages is the strength of the Standard Radio news centres across the country.  Wherever news happens in Canada, we have access to Standard's award winning network of news rooms, including those on the Prairies and in Ontario.  When news breaks, we will have access to sources no one else has.  Conversely, we're excited to add our stable of news rooms, a Saskatoon bureau allowing us to bring the news, issues and events of this community to a national stage in the same way.  This will truly be a new editorial voice in the community.

6009             There will be 45 news casts Monday to Friday, as well as locally produced news and public affairs programming featuring content relevant to our audience.  We know how important features like road conditions and weather reports are to listeners in a region that can experience severe weather, and we plan to ensure that our listeners are well informed.

6010             EZ Rock will have an advantage during major events like National elections, budgets or any major government announcements.  Our newsrooms will have the ability to link up with our Standard Radio news centres, bringing news from the source directly to our listeners.

6011             Our news policies reflect our commitment to diversity and local reflection.  Our proven track record to serve our audience will keep our listeners in the Saskatoon area connected to the community and well informed.  This application also offers a unique opportunity with our Sunday morning news magazine program to give an outlet to many groups in the community who currently don't have a voice.

6012             To further explain the Sunday morning news magazine and its impact on the community, Leah Singleton.

6013             MS SINGLETON:  I discussed our Sunday News Magazine with many Saskatoon organizations, including The Aboriginal Friendship Centre, The Saskatchewan Indian Cultural Centre and White Buffalo Youth Lodge, just to name a few.

6014             Saskatoon has the largest Aboriginal population per capita of any city in Canada, and we want to help build bridges, not only within the Aboriginal community, but the community in general through access to our EZ Rock station.

6015             As I mentioned Tuesday, it is estimated that by 2050 half of Saskatchewan's population will be Aboriginal.  Today it's 17 percent.

6016             Our Sunday Morning News Magazine will cover issues that relate to all Aboriginal people in the Saskatoon region.  Voting procedures for local Band councils, decisions on the latest developments for survivors of residential schools, language classes and native youth programs, such as the youth leadership and employment.  These are just some of the examples of discussions you will hear on our weekly news program.

6017             We will also utilize our partnership with Aboriginal Voices Radio to share any of their relevant programming with our audience.

6018             As part of our Canadian Talent Development program we will recruit and train Aboriginal stringers hoping to enter broadcasting.  These paid interns will produce programming for our news magazine, pitch story ideas and be out in the community reporting on events.  The annual commitment for this program is $15,000.

6019             We will also create a $10,000 bursary program for students at the First Nations University ‑ Saskatoon campus.  The university's  Indian Communication Arts (INCA) certificate program prepares students to work as journalists.

6020             We have also earmarked $10,000 to create a scholarship program for Aboriginal students interested in attending one of Western Canada's leading post‑secondary schools in a full‑time broadcasting program.  With so many Aboriginal young people poised to enter the workforce here in Saskatchewan, we want to do our part to attract them to a career in broadcasting where their voices need to be heard.

6021             MR. DEPOE:  Other Canadian Talent Development programs will include an annual EZ  Rock Talent Search, much like the Canadian Idol phenomena, where the winner would record a demo sampler at a leading Canadian recording studio.  Each year $30,000 will be devoted to this important initiative of which there will be a cash prize of $10,000 and a special showcase to introduce our winner to influential people in the music business.  Standard will fully pay for the production of CDs and a professional bio package.  The program further underscores our commitment to developing Canadian talent and promoting home‑grown music.

6022             Standard will also direct $15,000 per year toward the Saskatchewan Recording Industry Association or SaskMusic, as it's now known.

6023             And we've also created a fund that will support Canadians who are members of the four designated groups ‑‑ women, Aboriginals, disabled  persons, and visible minorities.  Musicians, songwriters and performers will be eligible to participate in this program, which will assist them with their music career.  Standard is committing an annual $10,000 contribution to this initiative.

6024             There will be a donation to FACTOR of $5,000 per year, as well we will direct $5,000 annually to Canadian Music Week.

6025             MS TAYLOR:  In total, Standard has proposed significant benefits for the development of Canadian talent in the amount of $100,000 per year or $700,000 in cash over the seven‑year licence term.

6026             Our Canadian Talent Development program also includes three non‑cash benefit programs.  These include Standard's well‑known national free ad plan, which runs commercials promoting new Canadian CDs ‑ Standard Cares, our national program assisting local children's hospitals, and our national public service announcement program, which has every Standard Radio station airing public service announcements every hour.

6027             With our $875,000 of in kind programs, our total Canadian Talent Development package is over one million dollars over the term of the licence, a million five.

6028             Standard Radio's commitment to the local community is consistent throughout the entire company.  Last year alone Standard raised a total of over seven million dollars across Canada to assist local hospitals in each of the markets we serve.

6029             In summary, we have presented what we consider to be a well thought out and strong application for an EZ Rock radio station in Saskatoon.  The key highlights of our application are:

‑ A current base Soft AC format that is in demand, but not available in Saskatoon.

‑ A new independent editorial voice with a national platform.

‑ 40 percent Canadian content, including 40 percent Canadian content from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. Monday to Friday.

‑ A Canadian Talent Development benefits package of over $700,000 in cash, and $875,000 in kind.

‑ 20 new jobs and almost 10 million in investment over the term of the licence.

‑ A partnership with Aboriginal Voices Radio that will be part of our news and magazine coverage to the area

‑ a realistic and achievable business plan.

6030             We feel our application brings diversity with an exclusive format ‑ EZ Rock ‑ and a new editorial voice that are highly complimentary to Saskatoon.

6031             That concludes our presentation, and we appreciate the opportunity to answer any of your questions.

6032             Thank you very much.

6033             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑Chair Arpin...?

6034             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

6035             Just to ‑‑ as before turning to any discussions, I have gone through the CTV list that you put down this morning, and they are similar to the one that we have in the application, you agree?

6036             MS TAYLOR:  Thank goodness.  That is correct.

6037             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you.

6038             We will now start discussing the format, and its application for, say for the Saskatoon market.  And as ‑‑ my first question will be the one that I have been asking a lot of people, what's got to be the major age of your listener in Saskatoon?

6039             MS TAYLOR:  I will ask Brian Depoe to speak to our demographics.

6040             MR. DEPOE:  We anticipate the medium age of our listening audience to be about 41 years, skewed about 55 percent towards females over males.

6041             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Okay, thank you.  I'm writing it down.  As you probably are aware,  because you surely did spend some time in the market.  As CJMK appears to target a very similar adult audience and which is ‑‑ with an AC format.  The BBM day life showing that they have somewhere between a 12 to a 13 share, at least a 12 plus, and that they surely are aiming in the 35‑64 age group.  Could you tell me what's going to be the main differences between your Soft AC and CJMK?

6042             MS TAYLOR:  Again, I will ask Brian to give you his comments on that.

6043             MR. DEPOE:  The primary difference between ourselves and CJMK would ‑‑ first of all, CJMK programs 90 to 95 percent gold music.  There's very little exposure for current artists or current music, particularly new and emerging Canadian talent on CJMK.

6044             The proposal we're putting forth for EZ Rock Saskatoon would be 60 percent current music with an emphasis on new and emerging Canadian talent.  What comes back to us time and again in the many markets we program the EZ Rock format with the women and the families we seek to serve is, listen, we're not dead yet.  We still want to hear new music, we still want to be in touch with what's going on today, but we want this music presented in an environment that's safe and friendly.  And that's the format and the kind of radio station we're putting forward that does not currently exist in Saskatoon.

6045             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I heard you in your oral presentation saying that exactly ‑‑ almost using the same words, that you will never say anything that will embarrass you, you being the CRTC or being the listener?

6046             MR. DEPOE:  Well, we certainly don't want to embarrass the CRTC ever.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6047             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And what do you really mean by that?  Do you sensor your programming staff, what do you really mean by making sure that the comments that they're making is ‑‑ are totally ‑‑ again, back to that they will never embarrass anybody and make anybody feel uncomfortable?

6048             MR. DEPOE:  The essence of EZ Rock brand has been reverse engineered from conversations with the target we seek to serve, which is women and families.  And what came back to us time and again, and I don't know if you've had the experience recently as I have, if you're driving along in your minivan with your nine‑year‑old and something comes on the radio you can't explain, you don't want to be taken by surprise because you didn't have the opportunity to steer that inputted information to that little person.  And the EZ Rock environment and EZ Rock brand is oriented towards no surprises for women and their families.

6049             So it's not so much a question of censoring people or shackling them, if you will, or not making them able to say things, it's how things are presented.  And we just ‑‑ it is a no surprises environment for women and families, nothing inappropriate.

6050             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  It also applies in selecting the music?

6051             MR. DEPOE:  Yes, it does apply in selecting music.  Fortunately the great majority of what we have to choose from is never even an issue.  So it's very, very seldom that we have to, you know, not use a musical selection because it's something inappropriate.  It just doesn't come to us in this format.

6052             MS TAYLOR:  I would like to just add one comment to that, if I may.  It's not untypical when you have a group of people inside your radio station who are passionately motivated to serve the audience that the radio station is targeting.  They become in tune with the life group, they become in tune with what's going on.  Of course, all the announcers that work at our EZ Rock stations understand that at the very core of our programming is this family friendly pledge.  They also, by virtue of doing a good job, have to immerse themselves in what's going on in the lives of the audience of our core audience.

6053             To follow up on what Brian said, it really just flows from that.  They understand, they do their best to present stuff that's interesting.  It doesn't have to mean boring, it simply is family friendly.

6054             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I will say, more than likely that your programming staff will be also of the same age group, than the audience that you're trying to serve?

6055             MS TAYLOR:  In most cases, yes.

6056             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  In most cases.  So they have already had their training years through other formats, maybe, or through other ‑‑ they have the needed experience to say what they have to say.

6057             MR. DEPOE:  Absolutely.

6058             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  There are two other applicants in this hearing.  One is Pattison, and the other one is CJVR that are proposing formats of the same nature.  Could you comment on their proposal and tell me what are the key differences between your application and theirs?

6059             MS TAYLOR:  There are some very key differences musically, and I will have Brian again fill you in on those.

6060             MR. DEPOE:  Having reviewed the other applications, it's very clear that neither of them is proposing the amount of current based music that we are.  And clearly, what our research exposed, particularly through the adult female audience we seek to serve, is there's just not an outlet for them to hear a blend of some of their favourite songs, but also to hear a lot of the new music that they would like to hear to keep them in touch with what's going on today.

6061             So both of the other applications, to the best of my knowledge, from what I have learned from analysing them, are gold based entirely and would more or less more closely duplicate what's currently available in the market, whereas we propose something that is an alternative to what's available in the market.

6062             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And earlier this morning we heard Harvard, which is presenting a rock ‑‑ a more modern rock radio format.  In your oral presentation you said that it is a format that you also look at for Saskatoon, but you choose Soft AC.  Could you elaborate on your choice?

6063             MS TAYLOR:  I may ask Janet to fill in some of the gaps on the research for you.  First of all, modern rock as we researched it, there was a hole for that ‑‑ for that format.  I'm not sure that the format that Harvard is putting on the table is exactly the same as the modern rock format that we researched.  There seems to be a little broader, a little bit more of, perhaps, CHR with rock and alternative.  We were ‑‑

6064             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And probably more younger than what you will have come up with.

6065             MS TAYLOR:  It seemed that way to me.  Yes, it seemed that way to me.  Well, I'll ask Janet to talk about our research and what it told us.

6066             MS LAZARIS:  Now, I wasn't responsible for the decision of the format Standard is applying for, but from the perspective of the research I would think that the primary rationales were one, the modern rock format would, according to the research, do quite a bit of harm to the incumbent rock station.  Also, on ‑‑ from another perspective, the target demographic of the Soft AC is much more appealing to a broader variety of advertisers simply because the population base in the age demographic is much larger, and it's also much more affluent.

6067             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Well, we move now to talk about spoken word and local reflection.  Thank you, Mr. Depot, you may have to come back to clarify the views of the EZ Rock.  Obviously the Commission is quite knowledgeable of the EZ Rock format since you have numerous radio stations, one of them being your Toronto flagship station, so that we have a very good understanding that ‑‑ of the format.

6068             In the application I'm drawing your attention to page 13 of your supplementary brief, and under the heading "Addition of a New Voice in Saskatoon," you said approval of your application will provide an opportunity to improve the diversity of an editorial voice in the region and in Saskatoon.  You go on to characterize approval of your application as being a significant benefit to the Saskatoon listener.  Can you elaborate on the statements, please, and specifically as they relate to news and the provision of relevant local reflection programming?

6069             MS TAYLOR:  I'll ask Betty Selin to respond to that for you.

6070             MS SELIN:  Thank you, Sharon.

6071             As I mentioned a couple of days ago, one of the things we think makes it unique is that there are only two broadcasters currently, and just the fact that we would bring that third editorial voice, and the fact we have in markets like Toronto and Ottawa, Standard Radio stations.  You know, our CFRB station constantly wins awards for their programming, and we just have the ability through the software that we would have in our newsroom here, the ability to be able to access the stories that we could share with the audience here when it's relevant.

6072             Of course, our mandate in operations of this size is that our news would focus on local and this would be a local stand‑alone newsroom, but we would have the access to those other resources.

6073             When it comes to local reflection, we actually spent quite a bit time in the market talking to some local groups, and wanting to hear their concerns about how they feel they're being heard in the community.  Many of these groups certainly welcomed our proposal for our Sunday News Magazine format show because they don't feel that their voice is being heard, and certainly that their community is being reflected in a positive way.  Most of the stories, they feel, is certainly about ‑‑ they come from the Aboriginal community are not necessarily positive and, so in a news magazine format show you have an opportunity to give both sides to a story even though it's not a talk show format, it's a prerecorded interview kind of format show.

6074             So we feel that that's an opportunity to really reflect a segment of this community that they feel is currently not being heard on mainstream radio.

6075             MS TAYLOR:  The fact that Standard Radio has this National platform of newsrooms that we could draw on should there be a National breaking story in the Nation's capital or in British Columbia, I would like to also point out that we believe that the reverse is true as well.

6076             Standard Radio currently, as you are aware, does not have a radio station in Saskatchewan.  The ability to have a news centre here that can feed our other news centers across the country is one ‑‑ it will work both ways.  There is lots going on here, and when the story permits it will be something that would be shared with the other newsrooms.  Whether or not they feel it is a value to their listening audiences of theirs to determine, but I just wanted to point out that not only can we draw from across the country and bring that information directly from the source in here, but the reverse is true.  The issues that are going on here in Saskatchewan will be fed to our other newsrooms for them to use as they see fit.

6077             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Madam Taylor, you are the operator of the Winnipeg stations, and you also supervise Brandon.  And based on your own experience, on a weekly basis and in percentage terms, what are you taking from the Standard Radio news centre versus what you are doing locally, on an average?

6078             MS TAYLOR:  That's a good question.  I wish I had thought of asking our News Directors that before I left.

6079             MS SELIN:  Perhaps, Sharon, I could add to that, although, I mean, my experience is British Columbia based.  It's not that often.  It's on the big story.  It's on the big story, like I explained the other day, when the rest of the broadcasters are, generally speaking, using broadcast news, and don't get me wrong, I love broadcast news, I would hate to give them up, they're a fabulous resource.  But most of us on those kinds of big stories have to use broadcast news.

6080             In Standard Radio news stations because of the technology we have, they feed us their reporter on the scene.  I mean, the Montreal example is a perfect example of how that was unique.  They have the same story, but maybe they have a different source, they have a different eyewitness, and so if you're flipping back and forth between a Standard station and another station, you're going to hear just a slightly different perspective on the same story, which we think is unique and, of course, brings, you know, a third editorial voice.

6081             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Does Standard Radio news have correspondence outside Canada?

6082             MS SELIN:  No, we do not, but one of the things that Standard Radio is able to do, for example, during an election, we have a reporter on the bus with at least the two major parties, and for a section of the election someone with a third party, so that we actually have those direct reporters.  We can call them up on our talk shows.  We have complete access to them, so that's another big advantage that we have during those kinds of national stories.

6083             MR. DEPOE:  And in addition, while we don't have people stationed all over the world on a full‑time basis, we very often do send reporters to cover major stories and major events.

6084             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  But do you have a regular source of International news that you  are subscribing to some foreign service or do you rely through the Internet or you have somebody sit and watch CNN?

6085             MS SELIN:  Most of our International news would be, unfortunately like the rest of the broadcasters from broadcast news just because of the resources that that requires.  However, if it is a major story, certainly a story like 911, CFRB sent people to New York and therefore we have access to those reporters in those emergency situations.

6086             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Could we speak a bit about The Sunday Morning News Magazine?  I think you've alluded to it earlier, but you know that there will be a component coming from AVR and could we ‑‑ without going into as many details as we went the other day, could we have ‑‑ will it be different in Saskatoon than what you're planning to do in Regina or is it the same ‑‑ is it the same program or is it a similar type of program?

6087             MS SELIN:  No, actually the program would be unique to Saskatoon.  There are different groups within the community, I mean, the Aboriginal Friendship Centre here, the Cultural Centre we spoke to, The White Buffalo Youth Lodge, The Metis Women's Association, all of them are already on board wanting to be regular contributors to the program because they want to get the message to the local community.

6088             Now, if there's a province‑wide story, probably that would air on both stations.  And just to maybe further explain a little bit about how we would use Aboriginal Voices Radio, it's much how we would use the Standard Radio news centers across the country.  Really the focus of the program will be local, but when there is a need or a great National story, they have more resources than us to do that.

6089             And so if they have a really interesting program that what we think would be of value to our listeners in Saskatoon or should we be so lucky to be in Regina as well, that that's when we would use AVR.  Certainly not on an ongoing weekly basis, but more of when the story warrants it, when there is a National story that would be of interest, but we really see the Sunday Morning News Magazine as a reflection of what is happening in Saskatoon.

6090             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  If I understand very well, what you're going to be doing with AVR is you're going to get a half an hour segment coming from them on a weekly basis prepackaged by them, so it will be not only of a Saskatoon nature, but of a Nation‑wide nature; am I right?

6091             MS SELIN:  That's right.  And that's when we would use them is when there is a component of their programming that we feel would be of interest to our listeners in Saskatoon.

6092             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Oh, I see.

6093             So you will access AVR programming only when ‑‑ because my understanding was that the agreement was to get a half an hour weekly feature that you called ‑‑ you were to introduce in your Sunday News Magazine.  Now, am I hearing you well when you say it's ‑‑ you may do it or only if it is of relevance for Saskatoon or ‑‑

6094             MS SELIN:  Yes, that's correct.  I mean, there is no real need to air a program that doesn't affect the Saskatoon market, right.  So my concept of this program is that the focus would be local, but clearly there are National issues that would impact the local listener, and so that would be a weekly decision made by the news director in Saskatoon.

6095             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  So the agreement is that for them to produce for you a half an hour feature ‑‑

6096             MS SELIN:  They wouldn't be producing something unique for us, we would have access to their already produced programming that we would be able to carry when appropriate.  Am I making sense?

6097             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  It makes sense, but it means that you're going to need to have some staff listening to AVR to make the determination that this segment is of relevance and this one is not.

6098             So it means that you're going to have staff somewhere and ‑‑ well, obviously if it's got to be in Saskatoon, the AVR station has to be on air as well in Saskatoon otherwise you can always get it from Calgary or Edmonton or Toronto, but somebody will have to be listening to AVR to make sure that it has some relevancy for your ‑‑ for Saskatoon.

6099             MS SELIN:  That's where a relationship with our News Director and people at AVR will be very important.  Most of the other resources that we use in our stations across the country when we access programming, we certainly know what's available every week and so, I mean, that will be probably a weekly conversation saying what are your ‑‑ what are your program highlights this week and then a determination made to say, this is a great show, we want to take this show.

6100             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And if you do take a segment, you understand that obviously this segment will not count as being local, because you said in your ‑‑ you're saying in your application you're going to be 100 percent local, but that segment will not be necessarily local.

6101             MS SELIN:  Correct.  And that's ‑‑ it's sort of difficult to nail it down because we really want this program to be a local reflection, but we also want the ability to be able to inform our listeners of an important national issue within the Aboriginal community.  So that's a balance that we're obviously going to have to pay very close attention to.

6102             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Can I keep you, again, back on your ‑‑ the page 13 of your supplementary brief, and I will ask you also to enlarge on the two following quotes that I found, which you are saying the station will be designed to depend, in a large part, on interactive and public involvement to cover the daily news, and you go on to state that your news will be different because it will rely on actively involving the public and encourage listeners in the communities and will serve to help drive local reflections.  Could you enlarge on that topic and say how it's going to really work?

6103             MS SELIN:  Absolutely.  The mandate of all of our Standard Radio news people, particularly in our smaller markets is to really get known in the community, to be at those meetings, to attend those council meetings, to be at the school board meetings, to make contacts within the community because we all know the reporters with the best contact list get the best stories.  And so that's one way that we will do it is actually attending those functions, being out there as well as being on the phone every day.

6104             We also have opportunities through encouraging our listeners to call our newsroom with their news tip, and now we have, of course, a new way where they can e‑mail us, and we have, you know, through our website that we will have for this radio station, another opportunity for people to be able to send us their ideas, their suggestions, that kind of thing.

6105             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  We will now move to the other spoken word, the component of your programming grid.

6106             Other than the three hours of news and weather and sports that you have provided in your grid, could you tell me more about what is going to be the other components of your ‑‑ and obviously we have already covered the Sunday News Magazine, but the other features, other components of your spoken word?

6107             MS SELIN:  Certainly.  And just to clarify that, the three hours of our news and sports package.  Our weather is over and above that, another two hours and two minutes, and then our road and traffic reports above that, another 45 minutes.  And then when you include the Sunday News Magazine, it's a total of six hours and 43 minutes that would be provided by the newsroom, and then the remainder will be features and that type of thing provided by the Programming Department, and I believe Brian Depoe would like to speak to that.

6108             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  You seem to have a chart like probably the one you've produced this  morning for Regina.  Could we ask you to file it at some point during this proceeding?

6109             MS SELIN:  Absolutely.  We have that prepared for you.

6110             MR. DEPOE:  And in addition to what Betty was talking about, we're proposing to produce local top 20 countdown, which will air twice on weekends.  We also have a prerecorded daily feature called Community Counts, which again is aimed at the women and families in our target, highlighting various events being run by charitable community organizations.  There's also the EZ Rock family fun guide, which is an entertainment and event feature that focuses on events, places with activities of interest to families.  And then Saturday nights we have a fun show called Studio 96, which is just a place for people to sort of let their hair down and relax and have a little fun.

6111             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  My next question may get us back somewhere close to format discussions, not only spoken word, but obviously you mentioned that Saskatoon is probably having the most ‑‑ is probably Canada ‑‑ major urban city that has the most Aboriginal people, mainly First Nations people.  And how do you think the EZ Rock format will cater to the need of those listeners, and particularly looking forward when you were saying that Saskatchewan is moving from 17 percent Aboriginals towards eventually be 50 percent of the population.  And how do you think that your format fits with the needs of the Aboriginals, and particularly those in Saskatoon?

6112             MR. DEPOE:  I think one of the aspects of our Canadian Talent Development promise would be the first way that I would field that question.  The Aboriginal community would be one of the four groups that we would target with our $10,000 fund that targets women, Aboriginals, disabled persons and visible minorities.  We want to get those people involved in our radio station and get involved in the business that we're in, which is the music and radio and performing business.  Any radio station that is going to take a place in this community would certainly understand its role in terms of reaching out to the members of the community and making the radio station relevant, otherwise they're not going to be successful.  You know, part of the ambition of EZ Rock as family friendly radio station, and that's a value that resinates with any community irrespective of ethnicity or origin.  We think the EZ Rock brand will be relevant to the Aboriginal community, particularly because of some of the other initiatives and community service aspects that are built into our proposal.

6113             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  One of your CTD incentives is the allocation of $15,000 for stringers for the Aboriginal and First Nation communities to provide content for this program.  Should the stringer incentive be deemed ineligible for CTD under current guidelines, will you still maintain this weekly magazine program?

6114             MS TAYLOR:  Absolutely.

6115             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And you still commit, I think, to spending the $15,000 even if the Commission was to come to the conclusion that it wasn't CTD?

6116             MS TAYLOR:  Yes, correct.  I would like to comment on that just briefly though.  I understand that, as well, our commitment to the ‑‑ to the scholarships for Aboriginal students in broadcasting would be something that you would reflect on as well and guide us on whether that would be considered Canadian talent development.  If there ever was a hearing or a market where we feel that this is important to reflect on, it is this one.  It's not just ‑‑ we really need to do our part, I feel, as an industry to do everything we can to attract Aboriginal people to this industry.  They need to be sitting on this side of the microphone, their voices need to be heard, not just in news stories, not just in magazine programs as part of the story, but we really need to do whatever we can to attract these people to the industry.  Of course that's true, I believe in Saskatchewan, of any business that you're in, but it follows suit that it's also very true for us that we need to do what we can to get young people interested in entering broadcasting.

6117             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you.

6118             On page 2 of your supplementary brief, you allude to available programming synergies with other Standard stations in the areas of local reflection as well as  regional, national, and you state further that approval of your application will allow Standard to draw on our expertise from other EZ Rock stations in the chain creating more opportunities for synergy.  Could you be more specific as to the times of programming synergies that you are referring to?

6119             MS TAYLOR:  Certainly.  We have a number of EZ Rock stations already within our chain, so I'll ask Brian to speak to how they work together.

6120             MR. DEPOE:  We're always researching the EZ Rock brand and EZ Rock music and EZ Rock core values in all the communities that we do business, and we're always learning things, and you can learn things in any market that you can put to use in other markets.  The more people we talk to, the more women and families we talk to, the more we learn about what their core values are, what their needs are and what they would like from an EZ Rock radio station.

6121             So there's a sharing platform there.  It's not so much an opportunity for us to import programming, it's more an opportunity for us to import ideas and to expand on the values that we know are at the core of our brand and are at the core of the people we seek to serve.

6122             MS TAYLOR:  Brian does conduct I think it's weekly phone conference calls with all the Program Directors that had this format across the country, as we do with our other like formats.  And it's exactly that, it's ‑‑ well, Brian might have a few cages that he wants to rattle from time to time, but it's usually a sharing of opportunity, a sharing of information.  Did you hear about this, we have this going on in this market, it's really working out well.  And as well, with our commitment to new and emerging Canadian music, we think this is very instrumental in getting music that is in a small market somewhere in Canada by a local artist that is doing well, that's getting response on our websites or request lines and whatnot, getting that information to our other Program Directors quickly so that they can respond to it and potentially test it out in their market and grow the music that way.

6123             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  The talking about local programming, you will be local live how many hours a week?

6124             MR. DEPOE:  Seventy‑eight hours per week.

6125             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And the rest will be voice track or will you have syndication programming as well?

6126             MR. DEPOE:  We have 37 hours of voice track programming and 11 hours of produced special program, but it's all local.

6127             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  All right, so it's produced by the local people to be here over the weekend, particularly, or later during the day?

6128             MR. DEPOE:  That's correct.

6129             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  That's correct, ok.

6130             MS TAYLOR:  THE countdown show and things of that nature.

6131             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Okay.  No broker programming?  Any broker programming?

6132             MR. DEPOE:  I beg your pardon, sorry?

6133             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Will you have ‑‑ there aren't any brokered programming?

6134             MR. DEPOE:  At this point we have no plans to do any broker programming.

6135             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Okay.  Now, I was directed by one quote in your application and where you are dealing ‑‑ well, you're going to have a daily financial and business report, and I was asking myself how do you do those business reports to make them more attractive for women, since you are going to be catering more towards women.  Generally speaking, those features are done by a guy at the Stock Exchange or at CIBC or Nesbitt Burns, but what kind of special focus do you have to make them more attractive for women?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6136             THE CHAIRPERSON:  For the record, this woman over 35 plus listens to male stockbrokers and female stockbrokers, and I am indifferent to the gender of the individual and the tone and whether it's ‑‑

6137             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I'm not suggesting here that women aren't interested by business and financing, I think they have ‑‑ but they are more attracted, surely, by something other than men.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6138             MS TAYLOR:  I'll attempt to answer that, but I'm going to ask Brian to ‑‑ maybe Brian should handle all of it.

6139             MR. DEPOE:  Commissioner Arpin, it's you and me at this point.  First of all, and I know Sharon is itching to get at this question, but, of course, business news and financial news is a relevance to both sexes and it's presented in a way that's of interest to both on the EZ Rock radio stations.  Sharon...?

6140             MS TAYLOR:  I think you put that beautifully.

6141             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you.  You're saving me as well.

6142             We'll move now to Canadian talent development.  We noted that during the deficiency phase that there was some question that as to the eligibility of your Aboriginal, First Nation broadcasting core scholarship initiative you have indicated that this initiative, if it was deemed ineligible, then the $10,000 will be re‑directed to the CB Starmaker Fund.  If ineligible as CTD it will not maintain this initiative as a benefit outside of CTD.

6143             MS TAYLOR:  That's correct.

6144             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Could you provide us with any additional background of this type of broadcasting scholarship initiative that might impact on its eligibility as acceptable CTD funding under current guidelines?

6145             MS TAYLOR:  I just want to be clear, are you speaking to the First Nations University?  It's the other one, the ‑‑ okay.  No, the only ‑‑ again, the only explanation or background I can give you on that is that we are ‑‑ I guess we're trying to make the point that we think it's valuable, we think it's important, particularly in this community.  We, of course, will have the opportunity as a new startup to fill all of our positions locally, and we'll be able to look at that, certainly, from an employment equity point of view, but we really think that we need to add that extra push, that extra initiative to try to attract Aboriginal students to the industry.  And again, that's why we would really appreciate you considering that program.

6146             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And you have ‑‑ well, you just stated that if the Commission was to deem it noneligible, then you will not contemplate doing it.

6147             MS TAYLOR:  We'll certainly still do all the good work that we do in our other markets with the universities, with the community colleges, working with then, and, of course, we'll have a large component on air for employment equity and diversity.

6148             But, no, we think that again, if you disallow that, we'll be content to put our money into Starmaker and proceed with our other initiatives, which do include the First Nations University bursary program.

6149             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you.

6150             We'll move now towards the economic aspect of your application, including the impact of the incumbent and the market capacity.  We'll start ‑‑ my first question I'll start with page 6 of your presentation where you said ‑‑ you spoke about economic indicators and particularly the first one that you quote was GDP growth of 3.8 percent for 2006.  What is the source of that indicator?

6151             MS TAYLOR:  I would just like to reintroduce Norine Mitchell, she handles our sales component, and she'd like to speak to that, I think.

6152             MS MITCHELL:  I was provided that information by the Saskatoon Regional Economic Development Board.

6153             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Now, you also mention in your oral presentation, Ms Mitchell, that they ‑‑ all the economic indicators were positive other than the GDP.  What were the other indicators that you had looked at?

6154             MS MITCHELL:  Building permits were very encouraging, and in particular my discussions with the local business people, the key advertisers.

6155             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  So that, generally speaking, reflected that the economy was good, that's what you're saying?

6156             MS MITCHELL:  Yes, the growth in retail spending was obvious and in particular there is quite a large growth in housing and relatively affluent housing as well.

6157             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Okay.  So those are not ‑‑ so your reference is really the local trade and talking with the people, and obviously with the city, just industrial, development corporation, I would suspect, but there is no ‑‑ no other ‑‑ you didn't consult the conference board or the other sources?

6158             MS MITCHELL:  I did source the Conference Board as well, and that was as well through Saskatchewan Economic Development ‑‑ Saskatoon Economic Development.

6159             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  That's fine.

6160             MS TAYLOR:  There were the other indicators, of course.  You know, we looked at population, we looked at housing starts, we looked at kind of the laundry list of what you go through to see whether there is growth in the market and whether it's been a sustained growth, slow but sure or just in the last couple of years, and in Saskatoon it is true that it is a market that is so diversified at this point and what's really terrific is I just ‑‑ I just love reading about the way the ‑‑ I think I referenced, you know, the old fashioned ag business has now been married with this incredible high technological industry that's going on in Saskatoon.

6161             So there is ‑‑ and, of course, just the local retailers are very, very buoyant about what's going on there and feeling good, and everyone that we spoke to when you ask the question, how is business?  Good.  Well, how is it compared to this time last year?  Great.  And how are you feeling about where it's going?  I think it's going terrific.  And this all was before the PST cut, which I apologize if we tend to kind of talk about it a little too much, but we don't have it in Manitoba, so we're maybe a little jealous at this point.

6162             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And the other provinces as well.

6163             MS TAYLOR:  Yes, true.

6164             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Have you tried to ‑‑ have you done a study to establish the market capacity for ‑‑ an advertising capacity of the market in Saskatoon, and particularly the radio ‑‑ the radio capacity, and what the incumbents are currently taking and what you expect to take?

6165             MS MITCHELL:  The formula we used or the process we used is we worked our way backwards from the CRTC 2005 Financial Report stating that Saskatchewan on a whole had approximately $63 million spent in radio advertising.  And we backed that up to determine a share ‑‑ cost per share and we determined the market to be at about 23 million dollars.

6166             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And have you figured out how much money the ‑‑ could you give me more details on how you arrived at the 23 million dollars, because you started with 63 for the full ‑‑

6167             MS MITCHELL:  63 million, yes, I can.

6168             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And then you said, you look at market share and finally arrive at 23 million, but could you substantiate that?

6169             MS MITCHELL:  Well, the formula that we used, we started at the 63 million from 2005.  We broke the population base down.  In Saskatoon the 18 to 54 year old market represents 26 percent of the overall Saskatchewan population, and Saskatoon represents 26 percent.  26 percent of that gave us approximately 13 million dollars.  Now, keeping in mind, of course, that Saskatoon is a major centre in Saskatchewan, we added 40 percent onto that to increase because additional spending will be focused in they're being a major centre, and that brought us to a cost per share of $230,000.  And we are projecting a five share in this market.

6170             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  So you're going to be taking yourself a million ‑‑ a million ‑‑ $350,000 of that 23 million dollars.  Do you have an idea of what the incumbents are currently getting out of that 23 million dollars?  Because you're using 2005 numbers, so have you done any study or have you listened to the stations, look at the number of spots that they're currently running and then make an estimate of how much they are ‑‑ they could get out of the market?

6171             MS MITCHELL:  Yes, I did monitor the stations and we have been monitoring the stations.  The radio stations are fairly balanced right across the Board as far as share goes.  There is, of course, the Hot AC station in town does take a slightly more share, but it's very balanced right across, and I believe that the remaining 23 or the 23 million is spread fairly evenly over the top three radio stations there.

6172             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  So 23 is what the market ‑‑ what the radio broadcasters in the market are making.  Are there any money because they ‑‑ we heard earlier this morning that there were some retailers that were not advertising because probably they were not even solicited.

6173             MS MITCHELL:  That's right.

6174             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  So what is, according to you, the market capacity?  I hope you're not telling me that you're going to be taking 1,150,000 out of the broadcasters department use?

6175             MS MITCHELL:  No, actually ‑‑

6176             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  That's not what your application says.

6177             MS MITCHELL:  Yes, I've got it right here, yes.  Yes, I do have a breakdown on that.  We project 35 percent of our revenue will come from non‑radio, nontraditional advertising, 25 percent, we feel, will come from existing advertisers' budgets spread, like I said earlier, fairly evenly over the competitors.  And 40 percent we expect to see from expanded radio advertising budgets, because this particular format is delivering a market not currently reached.

6178             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And what has been the experience of Standard in launching EZ Rock format in other markets regarding new advertisers?

6179             MS TAYLOR:  I think it depends on the market, and I think it depends on the demand for that format in the market because it is Standard Radio and in this case I think you will notice by looking at our projected financials, we will operate at a bit of a loss for the first couple of years, something that we're more than willing ‑‑ I was going to say more than happy, but I'm sure that there would be people that would argue that.  That we can manage that and we're content to manage that because we think it is a growth format and one that will be successful for many, many years.

6180             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Now, I don't have any doubts that Standard has the financial capacity to compete, but you will be a stand‑alone group in a market where there is six stations owned by two different owners who are making use of the same shop for national advertising.  How do you think you will be able to compete?

6181             MS TAYLOR:  Well, it will be ‑‑ we have organized all of our financials and all of our planning based on being a stand‑alone station.  We accept that, we understand that, we're well aware that Rawlco and Elmer Hildebrand are very well imbedded in the market and established and are able to operate of synergies not just within the Saskatoon market, but also in Rawlco's case in Regina and Prince Albert and North Battleford, and in Golden West's case in Moose Jaw and elsewhere.

6182             So we are very aware of that.  It's not uncommon.  We have the same situation in other Standard markets.  We'll be able to withstand it, we'll find whatever synergies are available to us and operate.  We are very aggressive on our costs and conservative with our expectations.  We think that we'll do just fine.

6183             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  As you know, Rawlco and Hildebrand have intervened and so is Ken Goldstein, and particularly the study filed by Ken Goldstein saying that the market cannot support a new radio station.  What are the factors you think have been taken by Mr. Goldstein and show they have been taken so that to consider the market is sound and having the capacity to support new entrants?

6184             MS TAYLOR:  Naturally we disagree with them strongly.  We believe that the market is strong and will support a new broadcaster in the market, and we also feel that the time has come to answer the need in the community for a new broadcaster, a new voice, not just a new editorial voice, but a new feed on the street.  I think that it will be very stimulating for the business community on a local level as well as on a national level to have another broadcaster in the market.  Do you want to expand on that, Norine, at all?

6185             MS MITCHELL:  Certainly, Sharon, thanks.  Keep in mind, too, these projections that we're talking about are from 2005.  This radio station would be, if we're lucky enough to get the licence, be launched in 2007 following two years of substantial growth in an average of three percent GDP growth.  The retailers I spoke to, it was very exciting to speak to them because I did find that they were in want of having an alternative to find out more about the radio advertising they're doing, and being more targeted with their advertising and have a different player in the market, and in particular, a player from outside of the community, a player from ‑‑ a national player that can come in and bring a new level and help Saskatoon take its next step.  It is growing, there is a lot of activity, a lot of excitement in this market, I found, and they're all ready to move up one more step and go to the next level.

6186             MS TAYLOR:  As well, you know, I think pointing out the obvious that Golden West and Rawlco have combined as a trust to enter the market with another radio station, so ‑‑

6187             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I may appear to go back and forth because I have two questions.  One is based on your oral presentation and may need Mr. Depoe to expand because you're saying that you will provide an avenue to serve food and refreshments to let the Canadian newcomer perform at all at no cost to the artist.  What are you planning to do specifically for Saskatoon?  A cafe of some kind where you will have performers coming down to Saskatoon and play for ‑‑ or sing for the local people?

6188             MR. DEPOE:  This is something we do in many of our markets already.  For example, our country station BX93 in London has hosted a series for a couple of years now that's become very successful  where they do concerts in the basement of their building.  And it's become one of the more sought after entertainment venues in the city, strangely, because it's an exclusive concert, an opportunity for their listeners to come down to the radio station and be part of a very small group to be up close and personal with a Canadian music star.

6189             Our Edmonton radio station is doing it.  We do it in Toronto.  We find various venues, interesting places, they're small areas for small numbers of people.  It's an exclusive opportunity and we foot the bill and it's a tremendous opportunity for people to get up close and personal with the stars they want to see and hear.

6190             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And are you taping these shows and playing them back on the radio station or is it ‑‑

6191             MR. DEPOE:  We broadcast many of them live, we've taped many of them.  Many of them have turned into nationally syndicated specials via our national syndication arm, which is Sound Source, and they will continue to be a source of material not only for Sound Source and for our radio stations, but for Iceberg Media, our online media service.

6192             MS TAYLOR:  We also enjoy doing the same kind of initiative with new and emerging artists, artists that really are unknown to our audience.  I remember a number of years ago talking to a SRIA about some of the things that they do to help their membership, and it was a bit eye opening for me to realize that something as basic as helping them build and manage a budget, these kind of performances are terrific for new talent.  It gives them a controlled opportunity in front of a fairly small, receptive crowd to, you know, really hone their craft.

6193             So as Brian said, we will have these very highly anticipated and sought after artists come in, Canadian artists that people, you know, are just thrilled to be in a small group and be able to listen to them talk about how they write and their music and listen to them perform, but it's equally as gratifying to find artists who are fairly new in the business and help them kind of get their feet underneath them with performing in front of an audience.

6194             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And on a yearly basis, how many performances do you think you could do in Saskatoon?  I could understand that in Toronto you could probably have a weekly one, but in Saskatoon?

6195             MR. DEPOE:  Well, in Saskatoon it will be the responsibility of the radio station programming staff at a very grassroots level, to go out and seek and find new artists that we can present, you know, and as an example, the Canadian Aboriginal Music Awards will take place Friday, November 24th in Toronto  at the John Bassett Theatre.  Saskatchewan, last year, was somewhat under‑represented, and we would like to go out in the Aboriginal community and find those Aboriginal artists who need grassroots support and who need to learn how to perform and who need to be supported in learning their craft in order that Saskatchewan music will be better represented at the Aboriginal Music Awards in the future.

6196             So we will make a very proactive case of going out there and doing it as often as we can.

6197             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  My last question, Mrs. Taylor, as in your supplementary brief on page 17, you're saying that you will have an Advisory Board which will provide ongoing feedback and direction to the station programming people, and the members of that Advisory Board will include local listeners, performers, promoters and members of the Aboriginal community.  Have you already started talking to some people this way or ‑‑

6198             MS TAYLOR:  We have not talked to anyone in particular in terms of an invitation.  We have certainly made mention of this to groups that we have met with and individuals, you know, mentioning would you be interested, should we have this licence, would you be interested in participating in something like this, and give them a general guideline of, you know, what we do in other markets with this Board, but we haven't done anything specific, and we have no one currently lined up for it, no.

6199             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And who, at the station, will be involved in the Advisory Board and responsible ‑‑ who is going to call the meetings?  Is it the station manager or is it ‑‑ it will be the Advisory Board has its own Chair, how does it work?

6200             MS TAYLOR:  No, it is ‑‑ I'm going to ask Brian to fill in on this, but it is generally chaired by the General Manager and the Program Director.

6201             MR. DEPOE:  That's correct.  The General Manager and Program Director chair the meetings and we invite department heads from the radio station to come in and talk about their functions and activities of the radio station and then take feedback from the Advisory Board.  And it's one of the really critical aspects of setting down roots in a community, particularly in Saskatoon, where the Aboriginal community is going to be a growing community and one that we want to super serve.

6202             So inviting the Aboriginal community into our boardroom to sit down and tell us what they need from the radio station will be a critical aspect of our future, should we be granted the licence.

6203             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And do you have an Advisory Board in other markets?

6204             MS TAYLOR:  Yes, we do.

6205             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  You have one in Winnipeg, say?

6206             MS TAYLOR:  Yes, we do.

6207             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  So how many times a year do you meet with the Advisory Board?

6208             MS TAYLOR:  A minimum of four.

6209             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  A minimum of four?

6210             MS TAYLOR:  Once per quarter, yes.

6211             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Once per quarter.  Well, those were my questions.  Thank you, Mrs. Taylor and returning back to my Madam Chair.

6212             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

6213             Commissioner Williams...?

6214             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

6215             Now, Ms Taylor, given the apparent financial vibrancy of the Saskatoon marketplace, how many new stations do you think we can license, and if we were to license more than one, which applications would have the least impact on your business plan, and which applicants would be most compatible with your offering, and which applicants would be most harmful to your business plan?

6216             MS TAYLOR:  Certainly we feel that there is a very comfortable margin for one commercial operator.  After that, you know, I don't know whether you want me to, you know, Touch, I think has a ‑‑ Touch, AVR, these are both groups that would have absolutely minimal impact on our business plan.

6217             So it would be ‑‑ I would be very comfortable with either of those groups as well in the market.

6218             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Are you going to try and identify which would be most competitive with you then?  I think my question ‑‑ I said which would be most harmful to your business plan if they were licensed along with you?

6219             MS TAYLOR:  I think Pattison.  It is a ‑‑ I mean, it's too ‑‑ if we were lucky enough to have ‑‑ when you have the existing broadcasters and then you add in our EZ Rock radio station, and then you add in the Pattison Group's format, then I start to think it gets a bit muddy.  So I would say Pattison.

6220             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Thank you for that answer.  That's my question.

6221             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

6222             Just back on the Advisory Board, the last sentence of the description in the supplementary brief says, "The Advisory Board will also ensure that the station is true to our family friendly promise."  Could you explain what that means and how that works?

6223             MR. DEPOE:  It's a question of being a voice in the community that we are learning about, and we want to go in there and marry our core values with core values that are compatible in the market that we're seeking to serve.

6224             It's sort of a reserve engineering process where we say, you know,  this is the kind of radio station we are, and these are the values we seek to serve.  And we would like your advice on how the best ‑‑ what the best way is to do that in the Saskatoon community.

6225             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I understand the purpose, but it was more specific.  And  when you say ensure, one might think they would be responsible for the ‑‑ what's on the air, but I assume it's an advisory role and that the Program Director or the News Director is, in fact, responsible?

6226             MS TAYLOR:  Yes.  I would like to speak to that for a second.  With these Advisory Boards, where we find them to be the most helpful is they're not reactive, they're proactive.  You know, quite often in a lot of the radio stations that I manage, it is a reactive communication that you have with your listeners.  It's as simple as having a mother phone and say, I was driving my children to school this morning and this is what I heard on the radio and I think it's inappropriate.  And with our Advisory Boards we have the opportunity to sit and talk about what's on our mind, what we're thinking about with our programming, where the music and the, you know, the artists and what's going on in pop culture, if you will, within our format, and kind of get their feedback on how they feel about these kinds of issues.  And it gives us a ‑‑ it gives us a good gauge measure to go back and speak to the rest of the radio station, the announcers, the talent, even the news department, and say this is what we're feeling from our Advisory Board.  This is what they're telling us how they feel about these issues, how they're being handled in other media, on television, at other radio stations, and how they feel about it, so it really does help us, I believe, to be more proactive as opposed to reactive.  That's certainly one of the components.

6227             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  No, I do understand.  I thank you for that further explanation.  It was just a question of assuring that it is an advisory role, but in fact the decision is made by the Program Director.

6228             MS TAYLOR:  Absolutely.

6229             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

6230             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Taylor, can I ask or suggest, maybe, that you would file the curriculum from Red River College on that bursary issue and from NAIT?

6231             MS TAYLOR:  Certainly.

6232             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Because my recollection of that Red River College course is that it wasn't ‑‑ it was broader than broadcast.

6233             MS TAYLOR:  Yes, it is.  It's a Creacom, creative communicate ‑‑ the Red River one you're speaking of?

6234             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

6235             MS TAYLOR:  Yes.  Yes, you're correct, it is, it is broader.

6236             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Mitchell, when you had your discussions in Saskatoon, was that before or after Mitchell's Fine Foods said they were closing down all of their plants?

6237             MS MITCHELL:  That was prior to.

6238             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Was that before or after the second flooding in of the ‑‑ no, the second uranium mine to flood?

6239             MS MITCHELL:  You know what ‑‑

6240             THE CHAIRPERSON:  It's about a week or two ago.

6241             MS MITCHELL:  It was pretty close to that.

6242             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Mirwald is here, I think she'd be able to tell us the exact date.

6243             MS MITCHELL:  Probably help us with that.

6244             MS MITCHELL:  Yeah, I would suspect it was before.  I was there about four weeks ago.

6245             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I suppose things go up and down, so I guess it doesn't ‑‑ who knows.

6246             My final question is this looks a lot ‑‑ aside from the format, this looks to me like a cookie cutter of Regina; am I right?

6247             MS TAYLOR:  No.  I think that when ‑‑ when you operate within a larger company, you do try to take your best practices everywhere you go,  and I think ‑‑

6248             THE CHAIRPERSON  :  No, I'm talking about the CTD.

6249             MS TAYLOR:  Oh, I see.

6250             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm talking about the programming, the spoken word programming.

6251             MS TAYLOR:  Our news commitment, I think, in Saskatoon is quite a bit different than our news commitment in Regina.

6252             THE CHAIRPERSON  :  But you've got the same magazine program?

6253             MS TAYLOR:  Correct.

6254             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you've got the same CTD.  And I guess my reaction is vis‑a‑vis the differences in the ‑‑ in the markets, particularly the differences ‑‑ well, I mean, there are a lot of differences in the market, one of which I think is very important and I have spoken about.  I guess I'm surprised you didn't pay more attention to the differences between them and the needs of the communities.  I see the same amount of you will be doing the same thing for Aboriginals in Regina as you would be doing here.  The programming that one would hear could be 15 minutes or maybe 30 minutes every Sunday morning.  And the CTD is virtually identical.

6255             MS TAYLOR:  I don't disagree with you that there are some similarities.  We did build both ‑‑ we built the programming in both of the markets, we felt, to react to that market.  I mean, the  idea of the Sunday Morning News Magazine program, which we're very excited about, is a ‑‑ it's a stand alone in each market.  We wanted to serve each market individually as we do recognize that they are very different markets.  That said, Saskatchewan, there is a lot of similarities in‑between the two, but there are differences, and we feel that that is reflected in a lot of the different parts of the application, whether it be news or differences in ‑‑ subtle differences in the Canadian talent development.  We operate in ‑‑ in many markets where I suppose if you sat and organized the ‑‑ like you do for a hearing, the points that you offer, they would be similar.  We are a company that tries to take our best practices, our best programming, and share it.  At the same time, we would not be successful in any of our markets if we did not respond to local programming, and that's how we do build our radio stations for the audiences that we serve and the communities that we serve.  And if I could just ‑‑

6256             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

6257             You have your two minutes to shine.

6258             MS TAYLOR:  Thank you.

6259             I would just like to take a moment to reaffirm the key points of our application.  Those are brand‑new format not previously available in the market EZ Rock, a new and strong voice for Saskatoon, 20 new jobs, new opportunities, 40 percent Canadian content, including 40 percent Canadian content 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. Monday to Friday.  A benefits package, a Canadian Talent Development package of $700,000 in cash over a seven‑year period.  A new approach to news and information utilizing our newsrooms across the country, along with partnerships with Aboriginal Voices Radio.  And a unique magazine program for Saskatoon that will truly give a voice to the Aboriginal community.  And finally, a conservative, realistic and achievable business plan.

6260             Thank you.

6261             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

6262             Madam Secretary, we'll just go straight on.

6263             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

6264             I would now call on Touch Canada Broadcasting to come forward for their presentation.

6265             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary?

6266             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

6267             Before we proceed to the next application, I would just like to indicate for the record that Standard Radio has filed their chart on Spoken Word Programming on their Saskatoon application.  It will be available in the public examination room.

6268             And also, just for ‑‑ to note that the curriculum that they have undertook to provide with respect to the Broadcasting Scholarship Initiative, this will be provided on November 10th through the Commission, and will also be available on their application file.

6269             We can now proceed with the next application, which is Item 20 on the Agenda.  An  application by Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc. for a licence to operate an English language FM commercial specialty radio programming undertaking in Saskatoon.

6270             The new station would operate on frequency 100.9 MHz, (channel 265C1) with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts (nondirectional antenna/antenna height of 179.1 meters).

6271             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Allan Hunsperger, who will introduce his colleagues, and you will have 20 minutes for your presentation.  Mr. Hunsperger.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

6272             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you, Madam Secretary.  Madam Chairman, members of the CRTC and Commission staff.  Thank you for allowing us the opportunity of sharing with you our reasoning for applying for a specialty FM Gospel music radio licence for the City of Saskatoon.

6273             Before we get started, let me reintroduce to you our panel.  To my far right is Beverly Gillespie, our Business Manager.  To my immediate right is Malcolm Hunt, our Network Program Director.  To my left is Jamie Moffat, Sales Manager of our Edmonton stations.  Maureeta Percy of Ipsos‑Reid was unable to be with us today and unfortunately Dionne Smith from the Shai Awards had to return to Calgary yesterday due to a family emergency.  Her son, just so you know, got cut in an incident in the school and required 25 stitches, and he's okay.  So we're happy about that.

6274             Attached to the end of our presentation document is a seating chart for ease of identifying members of our panel.

6275             At the present time Saskatoon has no full time full power Gospel station.  There is a low power 37‑watt station transmitting from Bulcher, which is owned by Mr. Robert Orr.  Mr. Orr is in full support of our application as evidenced by the intervention he has submitted to this proceeding.  With your approval in our ability to provide the infrastructure, including personnel, programming, marketing and financial backing to sustain such as station, we are confident that we can establish a successful Gospel voice in this market thereby satisfying the needs of 30 percent of Saskatoon residents whom have declared an interest in this kind of format.

6276             As we mentioned earlier in our Regina application, Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc. is committed to the gospel music format, which it broadcasts on its existing stations in Edmonton and Calgary.

6277             Due to the success of these stations, Touch Canada Broadcasting is now ready to launch more of these kinds of stations in other markets where interest has been shown such as Saskatoon.

6278             MS GILLESPIE:  As you drive into Saskatoon from any direction, the city signs that welcome you say, "Saskatoon Shines" as its motto.  We think that it would be very fitting to have Shine FM in a city that uses "Saskatoon Shines."

6279             Saskatoon shines in several ways.  It has the largest science project in Canada ‑‑ Canadian Light Source synchrotron; the most advanced bioprocessing facility in Canada.  Lowest corporate tax rates for manufacturers and processors west of Ottawa.  Home to the world's largest producers of potash and uranium.  In lifestyle, it is the best city under 250,000 in Canada, and 15th in North America.  It has the best air and water quality in Canada.

6280             We at Touch Canada Broadcasting want to be part of the mosaic of this community, and we feel that the addition of a Shine FM will only add to its luster.

6281             We called in Ipsos‑Reid to survey the city and area to see what the response would be in offering a Gospel music format.  I will ask Jamie Moffat to explain to you their process and also share with you the results of the survey.

6282             MR. MOFFAT:  Thank you, Bev.

6283             Ipsos‑Reid was commissioned by Touch Canada Broadcasting to conduct a telephone survey with a random sample of 300 adults from the Saskatoon area to determine the interest in a contemporary Christian music radio station and a southern Gospel music station.  Respondents were contacted using random digit dialing in the Saskatoon area.  All telephone interviews were conducted between May 8th and 16th, 2006.

6284             Interest in a contemporary Christian music station in Saskatoon is high.  A total of 30 percent of respondents indicate that if a contemporary Christian music radio station was available in Saskatoon, they would listen to it either regularly or occasionally.  Furthermore 35 percent of Saskatoon adults say they listen to Christian music, indicating a healthy appetite for the format in that market.

6285             Those interested in the contemporary Christian music station indicate they would listen to the station for an average of 74 minutes per day.  Additionally 24 percent who would listen to the station, say their overall radio listening habits would increase if the station was available.

6286             Interest in a southern Gospel music station is weaker than that for a contemporary Christian music station, but still promising.  A total of 21 percent of respondents say that if a southern Gospel music radio station was available in Saskatoon they would listen to it either regularly or occasionally.  Those interested in the southern Gospel music station indicate they would listen to the station for an average of 60 minutes per day.  Additionally, 17 percent who would listen to the station say their overall radio listening habits would increase if the station was available.

6287             If these stations existed today they would be among the most popular stations in Saskatoon respectively.  By virtue of the 30 percent who say they would listen to the contemporary Christian music station at least occasionally, and 21 percent who would listen to the southern Gospel music station at least occasionally, these radio stations would have the potential to become popular stations in Saskatoon if they were launched.  Listenership could rival that of CFMC 95.1, C95, which 33 percent have listened to in the past month, CJDJ 102.1 FM, Rock 102, which 30 percent have listened to the past month, and CJMK 98.3, Magic 98.3, which 22 percent have listened to in the very past month.

6288             Few Saskatoon residents are very satisfied with radio in Saskatoon, and few who watch or listen to Christian programming are very satisfied with the amount of Christian programming available to them.

6289             Although almost all Saskatoon adults listen to the radio on a daily basis, only one in three report being very satisfied with radio in Saskatoon, indicating a gap in the marketplace.  Only 17 percent of respondents who watch or listen to Christian programming say they are very satisfied with the amount of Christian programs available to them.  Only 10 percent of respondents who listen to Christian music say they're satisfied with the amount of Christian music currently being played on the radio.

6290             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Upon receiving this information we decided to go with the largest group in the survey, that of the contemporary Christian music.

6291             We have trademarked Shine FM for Canada so that when we approach different markets with our style of radio, they will know exactly what to expect.  Jamie Moffat, our Sales Manager in Edmonton will tell you about our marketing plans for Saskatoon.

6292             MR. MOFFAT:  As I told you earlier in our Regina presentation, our past experiences have shown us there are advertisers specific to this format that would not usually advertise on other types of radio stations.  Our research in the Saskatoon market indicates the same holds true here.  A number of businesses that currently do not utilize radio have indicated to us a willingness and an eagerness to advertise on a Gospel music station.  These include bookstores, trucking companies, and small businesses.

6293             As a result of our research of the Saskatoon market, we are confident that there is a large enough interest in our proposed Gospel format to sustain and grow a successful business.

6294             MR. HUNSPERGER:  I will now ask Malcolm to share with you a little of our programming plan for Saskatoon.

6295             MR. HUNT:  Thank you, Allan.

6296             For your information, attached to this presentation is Appendix B, Programming schedule that I have drawn up to give you a look on one page of what the programming looks like at 100.9 Shine FM Saskatoon.

6297             As in Regina, we will be hiring two full‑time on‑air personalities, plus one part time to assist in the morning drive.  The part‑time position will become full time in year two.  In our existing operations we regularly exceed our Canadian content of 10 percent.  We will continue to do this in Saskatoon if granted a licence.

6298             We will provide a weekly total of 31.4 hours of spoken word programming, this will include 6.6 hours of news, weather and sports, 8.3 hours of local reflection and announcer content, 1.5 hours of comedy and human interest features, and 15 hours of brokered programming.

6299             A total of 98 hours per week of our programming will be local as defined by the Commission's current regulations.  This represents approximately 78 percent of our overall 126‑hour broadcast week.

6300             In our Regina presentation we indicated that news is an area in which Touch Canada Broadcasting is planning expansion.  We will provide a full slate of news programming using our own staff in Saskatoon supplemented by our Edmonton centre in the services of radio news.

6301             Community involvement is another area Touch Canada Broadcasting prides itself on.  If granted a licence in Saskatoon we fully intend to find deserving charities to partner with as we have in Calgary and Edmonton.  In the last three years we have raised approximately 2.7 million dollars for charities in those two cities.

6302             With respect to balance, just let me reiterate what we stated our Regina application.  We take our responsibilities to provide balanced programming very seriously.  As in Regina, we will set up a dedicated phone line and answering service to take listener comments.

6303             We also recognize the importance of Canadian talent development.  We believe the stronger the Canadian Gospel music industry becomes, the better sounding our radio stations will be.  We propose a commitment of $112,000 over the licensed term that money will go entirely to the Shai Gospel Music Awards.

6304             As Dionne Smith explained to you during our Regina presentation, the Shai Awards are Canada's only people's choice Gospel music awards dedicated to this genre.  Shai Gospel music, with its awards, seminars, and events, offer a unique platform for the Gospel music industry, the listeners and the artists.

6305             In addition to the artists mentioned in our Regina application who have gone on from the Shai Awards to receive national prominence at the Juno Awards, many upcoming artists have been assisted in their careers by the Shai Awards.  One local example of this is the rock band Stereotrap, which was showcased at the Shai Awards in 2004 in Calgary.  This band has gone on to be the opening act for groups like Thousand Foot Krutch and Tree63 performing in Saskatoon tomorrow night at CNH Place.

6306             Since the inception of the Shai Awards, Touch Canada has supported its endeavours each year.  We look forward to continuing this relationship in the future.

6307             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you, Malcolm.

6308             Touch Canada Broadcasting is looking forward to bringing a Shine FM to Saskatoon.  We believe there is a strong niche for this format.  Licensing a full power Gospel music radio station in Saskatoon will allow the city to shine even brighter than it is right now.  We bring balance and diversity with the broadcast system, and we would do all we can to be a part of the positive growth happening in Saskatoon.

6309             We are now ready to answer any of your questions in regards to this application, and thank you.

6310             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Pennefather.

6311             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  Good almost afternoon by a few minutes.

6312             First, Mr. Hunsperger, would you please convey to Madam Smith our best wishes for a speedy recovery of her son.

6313             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you, I will.  Thank you.

6314             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I just have a few questions to clarify our understanding of the music and local and spoken word programming first on the list.  One thing that wasn't clear when we're looking at the music.  You haven't specified a target audience, and when I went through IPSOS‑Reid I didn't quite see that there was a target audience or a core demographic.  And as you know, we look at that with all the applicants.  Could you explain what you think is your core target audience?

6315             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Our core demographic usually is female, 33 to 35, married, two children, and a professional.

6316             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That's quite specific.  So female, 33 to 35, and as we ask, is there a medium age that's the core?

6317             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Well, we'd go 20.

6318             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That would be 32 and a half.

6319             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yeah.

6320             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay.  Not bad for a non‑math person.  I notice as well that you mentioned today, and this was very interesting to read on page five, that in fact it's the Christian music more than southern Gospel that is showing up as more attractive to your potential listeners.  And you do note that the listenership could rival CFMC, CJDC and CJMK, which are CHR Rock and so on.  Could you just explain how you would bring a distinctive music to the listenership and what ‑‑ why is yours the best choice of format?

6321             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Well, obviously, you know, right now outside of the low power 37 watt that's playing out of future, there is no format right now in Saskatoon that's playing contemporary Gospel music.  When you look at this statistic you know that 30 percent of the survey said they would listen to our station.  We know that we're not going to probably show that kind of percentage when we get up.

6322             I mean, if we got half of that, we would be turning cartwheels.  We usually get in a market about a four to a five percent, maybe a six percent share, and that's about where we go.  IPSOS‑Reid just, you know, takes a look at this and then takes a look at the other people that they've surveyed and asks the question, which station do you listen to?  And that's where they get these percentages.

6323             So it makes us look very good on the paper here, but we know realistically that we're only going to get about five or six percent of the share.

6324             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.

6325             It's the distinction that you drew with the Christian music, which really covers a number of genre, as you explained the other day, and the more specific southern Gospel music, which skewed of less interest.  So I guess we're looking at the diversity within low genre that you would offer.

6326             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.  We have done this in several of our surveys with IPSOS‑Reid because we know in our Edmonton market we have a southern Gospel music station and we have a contemporary, and so we ask the question for them to ask which of these formats would be the most popular in these areas, and virtually almost every area that they surveyed comes out the same, that the contemporary Gospel music is higher than the southern Gospel music, almost about the same percentages all the way through.

6327             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So there is contemporary Gospel and souther Gospel?

6328             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.

6329             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay.  That terminology provides a slightly different distinction.

6330             Thank you.

6331             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.

6332             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  If we move on to spoken word, again just a clarification.  In your application, and you repeat it today in your presentation, you will provide a total of 31.4 hours of spoken word, which includes 6.6 hours news, weather and sports, 8.3 hours local reflection and announcer content, and 1.5 hours comedy and human interest features.  Would that describe ‑‑ that describes only part of the 31.4 hours of spoken word.  Could you just elaborate?  I'm looking at your application at 7.6 where you have a list of what you're providing as spoken word.  Could you go through that and just clarify the total 31.4 hours?

6333             MR. HUNSPERGER:  I will ask Mr. Hunt to give you the detail on that.

6334             MR. HUNT:  I think the remaining 15 hours that we were talking about is the brokered spoken word.

6335             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  It's the brokered?

6336             MR. HUNT:  Yes.

6337             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay.  Because we had in the application special programs that could promote the community, et cetera, and so it led to thinking that the 31 was made up of the six, the eight and another 16, but that's not the case.

6338             MR. HUNT:  The local reflection I think would be the community involvement, community calendar, that type of thing.

6339             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  The 8.3 hours of local reflection?

6340             MR. HUNT:  Correct.

6341             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And the 15 hours of brokered programming is not local, it is, in fact, not Canadian as we discussed.  It's the same approach as in the Regina application?

6342             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.  You know, like we said in the Regina application, we tried to get Canadian involvement in that and we have been successful somewhat in our Edmonton scenario, but it's very difficult.  We would be trying the same thing in Saskatoon.

6343             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I think as well your diagram of the program schedule, we had looked at 52 hours of voice tracking, but this schedule outlines when the voice tracking would be.

6344             So I don't think I need to ask that question, but in your application you state at 7.3, "The proposed FM station will utilize the TCB News network and the radio news network to cover breaking news, current affairs, sports, regional events, and news specials."  You also specify that a Saskatoon news reporter will add local news and community reflection to the package.  This point was also asked at deficiencies, but could you tell us how you will ensure that the local interests of your Saskatoon listeners will be ensured with this approach?

6345             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Well, it will be, of course, with the staff that we have there.  They will have the Saskatoon focus, that will be their focus.  All of our radio stations, you know, focus on their particular markets.  We are using, you know, the resources that we have, our developing Touch Canada Broadcasting News network, which is just in its infancy stages, which we mentioned the other day.  They will provide a lot of the national and international news,  but the local people will be talking about, you know, the local sports as well as any current news stories that are happening in Saskatoon specifically.  The half time person will do that in year one, and, of course, that will be a full‑time person in year two.

6346             Also our announcers are, just as much as our news people, involved in what's going on in the specific markets that they're in, so they all are fully aware that if something needs to be reported, they will report it for that market.

6347             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I'm looking at your schedule and I think a deficiency response on July 21 you indicated that you will not schedule newscasts on the weekend, at least until your news department expands.  Can you give us an idea when you will be able to provide weekend news and how you will, in the meantime, keep listeners informed on news, weather, and sports, if there is no weekend newscasts as such?

6348             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Well, the weekend announcers will obviously take care of that for the first year.  It's something that I've definitely thought about, especially through a lot of the questioning that we've had through the hearings, that we probably wouldn't have a problem scheduling newscasts on the weekends in year two.

6349             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  In  year two?

6350             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Correct.

6351             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So if we connect that, then, to your newsroom and you haven't provided, I think, enough information on the size of the newsroom and the staffing news reporter.  You may have added a little more information today, so could you clarify what at the start you will have as a newsroom and news staff and programming staff?

6352             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Once again, it's basically comprised ‑‑ we have a small staff.  Most of our ‑‑ all of our radio stations operate with a small staff.  We try to be very conservative.  We're not one of the giants in the market that can employ 20 people.  We have to be very conservative with the people that we do have.

6353             Our newsroom is ‑‑ in this day and age with technology, when we say newsroom it totally looks different from what it did five, ten, fifteen years ago when we had, you know ‑‑ I remember when I first got into the radio you had to rip the wire and there was actually staff that was there and doing that on a constant basis.  For us, we utilize the resources of the radio news, and, of course, the rest of the people within our radio stations in order to accomplish that.  So we basically wear a lot of hats.

6354             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  But how many staff will be in the Saskatoon newsroom even though it looks a little different, but how many people will be in Saskatoon dedicated to the news?

6355             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Well, there would be one person part time in the first year, and then that person would be full time in year two.

6356             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Part time.  And do you feel that's sufficient to provide 6.6 hours of news, weather and sports?

6357             MR. HUNSPERGER:  In combination with our Edmonton centre and radio news, yes.

6358             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So  if we look at ‑‑ and you mentioned that again today, full slate of news programming using our own staff in Saskatoon.  So that's part time ‑‑ one part‑time person supplemented by Edmonton and the services of radio news?

6359             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Correct.

6360             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So how can you assure us, then, that the news will be pertinent to Saskatoon listeners?

6361             MR. HUNSPERGER:  All of our ‑‑ all of our announcers, whether they be just regular DJs or news people, are talking about what's going on and what is relevant to that particular market.  It's  happening right now in Calgary, it's happening in Edmonton, and we are servicing those listeners no different than we would in Saskatoon.

6362             We're ensuring that the people in Calgary and in Edmonton right now are receiving the information that is relevant to them and the same will happen in Saskatoon.  It may not just necessarily be that part‑time person, it might be the morning announcer who perhaps may do their own sports in the morning, as well as, you know, the afternoon drive.  We utilized everybody on our staff to ensure that the information gets to the people, to our listeners.

6363             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So if I'm looking, just to be sure I understand, spoken word breakdown Saskatoon, Monday to Friday, news, five minutes, one minute weather, two minutes sports.  That five‑minute news, 60 percent national, 40 percent local, that five‑minute newscast, would that be coming from Edmonton and/or radio news content?  What component of that five minutes do you think would be local to ‑‑ 40 percent?

6364             MR. HUNSPERGER:  I believe it says 40 percent.

6365             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Forty percent.  And that would be that one half ‑‑ well, half a person, person part time that would be doing that.

6366             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Correct.

6367             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That clearly involves synergies with ‑‑ with your existing stations and clearly programming synergies will be realized.  Can you provide us with details on any other synergies which you see, particularly in the areas of voice tracking and traffic?

6368             MR. HUNSPERGER:  I mean, wherever possible, we're going to use people from Saskatoon to do our voice tracking.  When that's not possible, we will utilize the people within our company.  They may be in Edmonton, they may be in Regina, they may be in Calgary.  We will ‑‑ that's basically who we're going to be utilizing for voice tracking.

6369             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So the 52 hours of voice tracking, in speaking with other applicants' voice tracking, will be done locally to a great extent.  Your voice tracking would likely be done in Edmonton; is that what you're saying?

6370             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Some of it, correct.

6371             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Can you give us a sense of the proportion?  Starting in year one, and then I realize you're going to evolve, but in the first couple of years, for example.

6372             MR. HUNSPERGER:  It's difficult to put it into, you know, exactly what percentage of the people in Saskatoon are going to be doing that voice tracking at this point in time.  It's something that we're going to have to develop once we get into the market.

6373             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay, thank you.  We're going to move on now to the religious programs, which are ‑‑ I have the list and I'm assuming the brokered programs are the ‑‑ at least at the start, would be the programs listed on the chart you gave us, such as Focus on the Family, Insight For Living, Back to the Bible, et cetera.  Those are the programs we're talking about at this moment.  And I think, Mr. Hunsperger, you explained that they're not Canadian and that you don't, at this point, have any Canadian brokered religious programming available?

6374             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Right.

6375             Those that are listed there are not Canadian even though they all do have Canadian offices and staff, and many times we work with these programmers.  There are sometimes programs that they develop that are US oriented and would not be sufficient or reasonable to play on a Canadian station.  And they revised those and Canadianized those with the Canadian staffs that they have.

6376             For example, Focus on the Family, Insight For Living, both of their headquarter offices in Canada are in the Abbotsford area of Vancouver.  The In Touch Canadian office is in Markham, Ontario.  Right now the Love Worth Finding, for example, that we have listed there doesn't have a Canadian office, they have a Canadian Board, but they are very versatile down in Memphis, Tennessee, and they have ‑‑ the last time that I was down there was last year in their headquarters, the President of the organization continues to want to ensure us that, (a) if there is anything that would be US oriented or whatever, they would change that and make those programs that would be more applicable for our Canadian audience.

6377             So they do do those kind of things to try to make sure we do not want to have their programs come across in any way, shape, or form as a US scenario, and there are some of the subjects that they talk about most of the time that are universal, and so we don't have a problem with that.  But when that happens, the Canadian offices usually take care of those issues for us.

6378             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.

6379             It helps us understand your approach to the brokered programming.  And just on that point, we mentioned 15 hours when we were discussing the spoken word breakdown, and in your deficiencies you talk about planning to add five additional hours in year two and another five in year three up to 25 per week.  In adding the brokered programming, will you take the same approach?

6380             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Absolutely.

6381             I mean, we develop personal relationships with these people, that's why we have been able, as we have mentioned before, to so far keep a clean track record and make sure that we don't end up with egg in our face.  As best we can, I mean, that probably is going to happen to us sooner or later, but we try the best we can.  I go down on a yearly basis to meet with these broadcasters.  I go to their headquarters, I visited where they broadcast and let them know what's going on on the Canadian scene and the Canadian market.  And we keep very close contact.

6382             So how it ‑‑ and we also keep close contact, there is kind of a three‑pronged relationship.  One is with the agencies, either Eaglecom come out of Tawasin, BC, which handles most of them.  Or there is Reimer Advertising out of Winnipeg, which handles them.

6383             So with those agencies we keep a very close relationship.  They know what's going on with their station, they know what's going on with these broadcasters as well, and then we also make sure that we have a relationship, not only with the agencies, but also with these broadcasters to try to do the best we can to facilitate our listening audience and make sure that what's happening here, even though it's largely as we have stated is for revenue, is ‑‑ is going to be fitting and appropriate for our kind of programming.

6384             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Continuing on this question.  We can address the issue of balance, but I have here what you tabled in the reply of Phase IV, and I'm assuming should I ‑‑ should we assume to bring that forward to this application?

6385             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes, no problem.  We would abide by what we had said yesterday, the same would apply for Saskatoon.

6386             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Then could you ‑‑ there is one thing to clarify.  I have two points, the first is on the second page, second to last paragraph, "We are willing to accept a condition of licence capping the amount of brokered spoken word programming at a maximum of 15 hours per week for the term of the licence, 11 percent of our 126 hours."  You still agree to this condition of licence?

6387             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes, we do.

6388             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I have another question, but just while we're on this particular document, you also clarified your position on local programming, including voice track programming, which we just discussed, would the same commitments apply in Saskatoon?

6389             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes they would.

6390             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Finally, on the issue of the balanced programming, could I ask you to just speak to the ‑‑ you will be, according to this document, agreeing to a COL general condition with respect to religious policy, and we're aware of the wording of that COL, of course.  Could I ask you to comment on your approach to balanced programming?

6391             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Well, as we've mentioned, we're going to, you know, bring in the telephone line and get comments and even seek after comments of our listeners, and then we're going to air those comments on the station.  And if there is ever a program that is ‑‑ we're not getting any kind of feedback to help us on that balance, then we will, as a staff, our staff will search after that balance and seek it.  Whether we bring in some guests from the community to speak on that subject or whether we actually go out and do the research ourselves.  Most likely it would be where we would invite someone who would be able to give the other point of view or points of view in that matter, we would invite them to come on the air and express themselves.

6392             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Regarding the open line programming, I'm sure you're aware of the Commission's regulations regarding open line programming.  Do you have in place mechanisms to, for example, a delay mechanism or supervision of ways to supervise the on air comment?

6393             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes, this is not open line, this is recorded.

6394             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  It will be recorded?

6395             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes, it would be recorded and then we would play back.

6396             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Should open line be an approach you would like to use  to provide balance, would you have in place the mechanisms?

6397             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.

6398             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Who would be responsible and who will be responsible as well for the recorded as well as any possible open line programming and the monitoring thereof?

6399             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Well, obviously there is two people that are responsible for the ‑‑ on the open line.  One of them obviously is our Program Director who is responsible for anything that goes over the air.  And the other one we would look to our engineering to make sure that the mechanisms are in place and working properly, you know, to handle that if we did do an open line.

6400             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you very much.

6401             I'll move on to Canadian talent development.  There is ‑‑ you have committed to spending at least 16,000 a year to support the Vibe Gospel Music Project.  You provided a cost breakdown in the context of our discussion in the Regina market.  In asking you to provide a cost breakdown would it be the same cost breakdown or different?

6402             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.

6403             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  The same?

6404             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.

6405             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So perhaps we could resubmit the same cost breakdown, the contents is just discussion.  And should the Commission decide that some of these costs do not qualify as direct contributions to develop a Canadian talent, would you be prepared to re‑direct these costs to ineligible initiative as set out in Appendix 1 of Public Notice 1991‑11?

6406             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.  We would, as I mentioned yesterday, we would like to approach Dionne Smith and see if she can make adjustments that would satisfy the Commission.  If there is something in the Shai that doesn't satisfy the Commission, we would want to see if she could make those adjustments, and I'm sure in talking with Dionne that she would do everything she could to make sure that that would happen because I guess we really believe in what's happening in the Shai movement and how it's happening.  I have an e‑mail here from Kelly Bittner(ph) who's from Stereotrap, which is a rock band out of Saskatoon.  And he basically states in this e‑mail that of how thankful they are and what the Shai Awards has meant to them as a local band.  Would you like me to read that into the record or?

6407             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Madam Chair?

6408             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I don't think it matters.  You do what you want.  I mean, it's your evidence.

6409             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Okay.  All right.  I will just read it.  It's from Kelly Bittner from Stereotrap.  "The Shai Awards have helped Stereotrap a great deal.  The exposure to industry professionals and to new audience that the Shai Awards provides is something that most young independent bands cannot do on their own.  The vision of Dionne Smith to see the Shai Awards grow and to be a steppingstone for Canadian Christian artists is admirable and we feel it is effective towards making Christian music credible and respected in the Canadian music industry.

6410             From our first experience on the New Artists Showcase competition to performing at last year's awards ceremony in Mississauga, we feel that the Shai Awards has come a long way in trying to promote Canadian acts and not just the bands and artists who have recording contracts, but the independent artists and bands like us.  We feel as though we are a part of the Shai Awards and we would love an opportunity to work with their team again.  Kelly Bittner."

6411             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.

6412             Finally, the area I wanted to touch on was the economic impact, the economic issues and your plans, and perhaps also to give you a chance to comment on the discussion we have been having about the market with the applicants.  Specifically to your application, you indicate nine percent of your advertising revenues in year one would come from existing stations.  How would you assess the potential of the religious format or your Christian music format to attract new advertisers to radio compared to other formats?

6413             MR. HUNSPERGER:  I'll give that to Mr. Moffat.

6414             MR. MOFFAT:  Based on our experience in Calgary and Regina, we found that ‑‑ or Calgary and Edmonton, that we have found that advertisers who buy our radio stations at least 60 percent of the time have never bought radio before and they're buying us because of our format.  It's format specific.

6415             As far as impact on incumbents or other new licensees in the marketplace, I see it as very minimal, our impact, because if anything the revenue that we would attain would be as an add on to an existing advertiser.  For example, a major General Motors dealer perhaps who is advertising on three Saskatoon radio stations might book a remote broadcast on Shine FM Saskatoon as part of their overall media buy.

6416             So they may increase their budgets to add our specific niche market to their marketing plan.

6417             MR. HUNSPERGER:  And we'd literally get no national revenue.  Very, very small, if any, national revenue.  Once in a while target broadcasting or an agency sends us some ads, but it's very small, very minimal.  Once in a while we'll get a Tim Hortons commercial on our stations, Wal‑Mart once in a while, but basically we have to go after the new markets.

6418             By the way, one of the things that I would like to enter into this is that one of the bookstores ‑‑ there is two book stores called Scott's Parables.  One is in Red Deer, on the highway between Calgary and Edmonton, which is a very successful large bookstore that sells Christian music and other books and things like that.  And the other store that's huge that also does a tremendous selling is up in Saskatoon.  And when I was up in Saskatoon the last time talking to the manager there, he said most of the time the Alberta bookstore is ahead of them, but they're very competitive and very close to each other, so we know that they're, just by the virtue of these huge stores, particularly in Saskatoon, but there is a market ‑‑  there is revenue there.

6419             One of the meetings that I had when I went to Saskatoon was with business people, met with over 15 different companies who are not advertising on radio today, but if we were granted a licence, would put their support behind us and advertise on our station.

6420             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So as we have mentioned ‑‑ asked other applicants in terms of a market with six stations now.  In fact, some of the music touching on the genre of music that you would be presenting, although in more from the Christian music artists, do you feel you can compete?

6421             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes, we do.

6422             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Those are my questions, Madam chair.

6423             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

6424             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And thank you very much.

6425             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑chair Arpin.

6426             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

6427             This morning when we heard Standard Radio in their oral presentation, they had the following quote, "The EZ Rock format is unique and what we call family friendly.  It is a format that especially appeals to women and families and allows them to enjoy the stations without the worry of being embarrassed or offended by lyrics or verbal content."  Could we hear some of the same type of music on Shine?  There is an EZ Rock station in Edmonton and there is Shine in Edmonton.  Do you play the same music?

6428             MR. HUNSPERGER:  There is ‑‑ I could probably count the number of songs that would cross over on one of my hands between what EZ Rock in Edmonton and what our current Shine FM plays.  It's very minimal.  Very minimal.

6429             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Even if it's family friendly and even if it's done not to offend anybody through lyrics?

6430             MR. HUNSPERGER:  They advertise that in Edmonton, that they're a family radio station.  And when I heard Standard say that they wanted to be that kind of a station, I was very excited.  That's great.

6431             But they won't be playing the same music as we're playing, and like Malcolm says, once in a while there are some artists that there is a crossover, but very small.

6432             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  But the two formats are female driven?  Yours is a bit younger in terms of the demographic, yours is say 32 to 33, theirs is 41, but we're talking the same generation of people with ‑‑ women with kids.

6433             MR. HUNSPERGER:  What happened with us in Edmonton is the morning on air personality that was on the EZ Rock station, when we started up our Shine station, came over to us.

6434             So, you know, there is a bit of that kind of similarity, and yet there is a total difference between our kind of music and theirs, and if all the stations in Saskatoon would be family friendly, that would be fantastic for us.

6435             I do just want to add one more thing too, that we're talking very similar styles of music, but the artists and the lyrics are completely different.  Like I don't want us to be put into the same category as EZ Rock in terms of the music format, because it is absolutely ‑‑ it is completely different when it comes to the artists that we're dealing with.

6436             When I mention that there is probably a handful of artists that we share, it's basically the crossover artists that are coming out of our genre that get some national more wide spread ‑‑ I use Mercy Me.  They had a terrific song called, I Can Only Imagine, that spread across a number of different formats, but for the most part I would say 99 percent of what we play is going to be completely different to anything that's in the Saskatoon market.

6437             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you, Mr. Hunsperger, Mr. Hunt, Madam Chair.

6438             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Williams.

6439             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good morning, Mr. Hunsperger and panel.

6440             Much has been made of the large and rapidly growing Aboriginal population in Saskatchewan, and I guess specifically in Saskatoon we heard numbers of 17 percent of the population this morning.  Do you have any specific initiatives to involve or target some of your programming to the Aboriginal populations of Saskatoon?  And you have experience in Edmonton and Calgary, which also have large Aboriginal populations.  What has been your experience in working with the Aboriginal communities in those cities where you currently operate?  Maybe you can detail some of your experiences and best practices and initiatives and that sort of thing.

6441             MR. HUNSPERGER:  I would be more than happy to.

6442             We have thought about this and talked about this a lot, particularly when we were up in the Grande Prairie area, for example, and even the Fort McMurray area and now, in Regina and Saskatoon.  We have been in contact with Aboriginal pastors and those kind of communities, and even though we have a niche programming of contemporary Christian music, we have been asking ourselves the question, what could we do that would reach out somehow in a positive way to the Aboriginal community?

6443             And one of the things that we've come up with that both the Aboriginals feel would be very positive and we would feel would be very positive is if we could find some young people that are ‑‑ have the ability to come on and be our on air personalities on our radio station we would be overwhelmed and very grateful for that kind of scenario.

6444             I was just talking with some of the applicants that have applied here in saying, say, do you know of any Aboriginal young people that want to be on air and would want to be on air in a Christian contemporary music type of station?  And Debra, back here I talked to her, and she said yes, she feels that there might be a young lady here in Regina who is working on her degree and be ‑‑ might be very interested in being a part of it.

6445             So we have exchanged cards, we have even asked the ARV people as well, that situation, and if we could get one of these staff members to be Aboriginal in our applications and for our, you know, if we get some of these new licences in these markets, we feel that they would be then a model or a role model for some of the Aboriginal young people and we would feel that that would be the best way that we could do this right now.

6446             On our southern Gospel station we, you know, one of the artists is Jody Brown Indian Family, and they're a southern gospel group and do very well and they get a lot of air play on our station in Edmonton.

6447             So we are striving to try to see how that can take place.  And right now our biggest answer would be that if we could get a young person that would want to be on air and be one of our on air personalities in these stations, that would be phenomenal.

6448             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Have you been successful in doing that in the years that you've been operating in Edmonton or Calgary?

6449             MR. HUNSPERGER:  We have not.  We have not found, I mean, even, you know, talking with these people even when I ‑‑ here in Regina.  It's very difficult to find those kind of young people, as you know.

6450             But we're not going to give up and we even suggested that if there are young people in the Aboriginal community that want to be a part of our type of programming and would be interested, we would be interested in looking at helping them in their education to get that done, whether it be through scholarship or whatever, to accomplish that.  We have done some of that already with some young people.

6451             For example, our engineer in Edmonton, he was a young man that really didn't know what he wanted to do in life and he came to our station and he worked as a part timer.  Ended up to be a full‑time position, but it was a dead end street where he was at in his full‑time position.

6452             So I asked him what he wanted to do in life.  He didn't really know.  I said, I notice you're interested in, you know, tinkling with stuff and putting stuff together.  I said, would you be interested in going to SAIT in Calgary, we'll pay for your education, you come back and work with us as an engineer.  And so he did that, he went to SAIT, he  graduated and now he's back as one of our main engineers in our Edmonton office.

6453             So we would hope that that same thing could happen with the Aboriginal community.

6454             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Mr. Hunsperger.  That's my question.

6455             THE CHAIRPERSON:  On that latter point, the issue of recruiting Aboriginal First Nations people into broadcasting is becoming a very serious issue, and it appears that the practices being done by some people, Mr. Rawlinson included, is go to high school career fairs.

6456             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Pardon me?

6457             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is to go to high school career fairs.  Because there is, as Ms Charles stated, a real dearth, an absolute dearth.

6458             MR. HUNSPERGER:  That's a very good suggestion, thank you.

6459             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, I must have been mixed up last time.  Let me try to do this again.  When you have your morning people here, your morning show people here, you will have the 98 hours as you said.  But you're not going to have them here for a while?

6460             MR. HUNT:  From day one we will have them here or in Saskatoon or Regina or wherever it is we're at.  Absolutely.

6461             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you are going to have them here, the only issue is the new staff?

6462             MR. HUNT:  Well, we have ‑‑

6463             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Half and then one.

6464             MR. HUNT:  Exactly.

6465             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  I got it, okay.  So when I look at your economic data, the other is the brokered income.  Have you got that, your projections?  It's Appendix ‑‑ no, it is my Appendix 3, it would be in your application, 4.1 of your application.

6466             MR. HUNT:  Yes.

6467             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, you got it.  How did you calculate the local income?  How did you figure out ‑‑ was it based on the population or something?

6468             MR. MOFFAT:  I'll address that, Madam Commissioner.  When we did our projections, target projections, I looked at the Saskatchewan radio revenue from the CRTC documents, and the Saskatchewan population.  And then I broke it down per capita, Saskatchewan revenue of 63.7 million dollars, a population of 978,000 plus per capita revenue works out to $65 per person in Saskatchewan.  I took the Saskatoon population and multiplied it, which I came up with a conservative, as it turns out, estimate of 14.6 million dollars in Saskatoon radio revenue.  Earlier applications ‑‑ applicants have stated numbers in excess 20 to 25.

6469             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Up to 23, yes.

6470             MR. MOFFAT:  So we based our revenue projections on a Saskatoon radio revenue pie of 14 million and then taking five percent of that pie, which is what we would project to be our audience share.

6471             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Based on your share.

6472             MR. MOFFAT:  And that audience share is based on ‑‑ we're not measured in Edmonton or Calgary by BBM right now, we have been in the past.  It's also based on current measurement tools of this format in other major markets across North America.  In major cities or cities the same size as Calgary and Edmonton, the contemporary Christian music format will drive a three to five share in those markets, however there's 40 to 50 radio stations in those markets as well.  So we feel our estimates are extremely conservative.

6473             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And the other contra, what does that consist of?

6474             MS GILLESPIE:  Contra advertising is what we do in exchange for contra expense, and primarily that is promotional material.

6475             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And help me because I actually have never listened to the brokered programming.  They do solicit monies, don't they?

6476             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Not really.  What they do is offer books, those kind of things.

6477             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.  Okay.  And they pay you based on the size of the population?

6478             MR. HUNSPERGER:  No, they pay us on what we charge them.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6479             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Thank you very much, and you have your two minutes.

6480             MR. HUNSPERGER:  To Shine?

6481             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sometimes I say it, sometimes I don't.

6482             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Well, we were hoping you would say it for us

6483             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.  You've got your two minutes to shine.

6484             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you.

6485             First of all, we want to thank you so much for allowing us the opportunity to apply for a specialty FM radio station, Gospel music radio station in Saskatoon.  We feel that we, as you have heard, even some of the other broadcasters we have the least amount of impact in a community when we come in to other broadcasters.  And we also know that there is a strong niche for this kind of format that we have in the Saskatoon area.

6486             And we would be very honoured and would try to do our very best to be a broadcaster that would be able to help Saskatoon and Saskatchewan, and we're looking forward to that possibility and I know many of the residents are as well.

6487             So we thank you so much for allowing this opportunity to share with you today.

6488             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

6489             I think I'm going to be lynched if I don't call a lunch break.  We are running seriously behind, I must say,  should have started at a quarter to eight.  If we can come back at 1:30, and I do ask everyone to try to be brief in their answers here on in.

6490             Thank you.

‑‑‑ Recess at 1245 / Suspension à 1245

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1328 / Reprise à 1328

6491             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary ...?

6492             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

6493             Before we proceed I would just like to indicate for the record that Touch Canada has filed their CTD cost breakdown for their Saskatoon application, and that will be placed on their application file.

6494             The other commitments that have been filed with the Commission are two of the numbered companies, 1182743 Alberta Limited.  There are letters clarifying their CTD commitments with respect to factor and the Medicine Hat Jazz Festival.  This is the application for Medicine Hat.  These letters will be placed on the Applicant's public record file and can be viewed in the examination room.

6495             And we will now proceed with items 21 and 22 on the agenda, which are applications by Radio CJVR Limited for licenses to operate two English language FM commercial radio programming undertakings in Saskatoon.

6496             One of the new station would operate on frequency 89.7 MHz, channel 209C1, with an effective radiated of 100,000 watts, non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 179.1 metres.  The other station would operate on frequency 106.1 MHz, channel 291C1, with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts, non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 179.1 metres.

6497             Appearing for the Applicant is Mr. Ken Singer, who will introduce his colleagues.  You will then have 30 minutes to make your presentation on both applications.

6498             Mr. Singer ...?

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

6499             MR. SINGER:  Thank you.  And good afternoon Madam Chair, Commissioners, CRTC staff.  Thank you for allowing us this opportunity to appear before you for the third time on this very busy week.

6500             Before we begin our presentation for our two new FM licences in Saskatoon, I'd like to introduce the member of our team.  I am Ken Singer Vice‑President of Broadcast Operations for our company.  Behind me is Joan Therens, a past President and lifetime members of the Board of Directors of the Saskatchewan Music Educators Association.  Next to her, Harrison Thunderchild, a distinguished member of the Aboriginal Community and accomplished educator and a prominent member of the Office of the Treaty Commission Speakers Bureau.

6501             On my far left in the front row is Dave Marcoux.  Dave has 24 years experience in Saskatchewan broadcast media sales, and for the past six years has served as CJVR's Saskatoon Territory Sales Manager.

6502             To his right is Kevin Gemmell, recently appointed station manager and sales manager of our two Melfort radio stations CJVR‑FM and CKJH‑AM.  Kevin has been with our company for over ten years.

6503             On my far right is Corrin Harper, a partner at Insightrix Research of Saskatoon.  Corrin earned her Bachelor's degree in Commerce and Masters of Business Administration from the University of Saskatchewan.

6504             To her left is Jessica Schnell, Director of Research Services at Insightrix Research.  Jessica has a training in a wide variety of analysis techniques and earned her Bachelor of Science degree with great distinction at the University of Regina.

6505             Next is Dean Sinclair, a broadcast veteran whose 30‑year career includes programming, on‑air sales and senior management experience.  Dean has provided input and direction for our proposed classic rock musical format.

6506             To his left is Linda Rheaume, Administrative Manager for Radio CJVR's two stations in Melfort, and our new FM station in Whitecourt, Alberta.  Linda joined our team 15 years ago.

6507             And to my immediate right is the President and owner of Radio CJVR, Jean Fabro.

6508             MR. FABRO:  Madam Chair and members of the Commission, Radio CJVR is pleased to appear before you today seeking approval to establish two new FM programming undertakings on frequencies 89.7 and 106.1 to serve Saskatoon and surrounding communities.  These applications are, without question, the most important initiatives ever undertaken by our company in four decades of continuous broadcasting service to Saskatchewan residents.

6509             Each of the proposed new stations, Classic 89 and Oldies 107, are vital components to CJVR's strategic broadcast plan for Saskatchewan.

6510             Approval of these applications will bring much needed program diversity, listener choice and competitive balance among other important benefits to Saskatoon's radio market, while significantly improving CJVR's ability to compete in today's challenging broadcast environment.  CJVR is fully committed to growing its radio business, ensuring the viability of CK750 and CJVR‑FM, in the interests of their listeners across northeast Saskatchewan and to maintain a strong independent radio voice within an increasingly consolidated private radio broadcasting sector.

6511             The Commission's call for Saskatoon and Regina is critically important to CJVR, as both markets represent the rare, if not final, opportunities, for our company to meaningfully increase the size of its critical mass in Saskatchewan.

6512             CJVR, like many of its independent radio peers, arrived at a crossroads some time ago in terms of our broadcasting future.  Many opted to sell to larger broadcast organizations and leave the business and its growing challenges and complexities to others.

6513             CJVR chose not to sell and we began to lay the groundwork for growth in our radio business by increasing its broadcast holdings and critical mass in both Saskatchewan and Alberta.

6514             The first priority was to stabilize CJVR‑AM by giving it the necessary financial, technical and human resources to improve its operation.  Next, a sister FM station was added to increase diversity and listener choice within the coverage area, while further stabilizing the AM station by applying shared operating synergies.

6515             Having developed the Melfort stations to their full maturity, CJVR has entered the next critical phase of it's strategic broadcast plan.  That is a phase that includes the acquisition of and launch of CIXM in Whitecourt, Alberta, and pending applications for FM licences in Grande Prairie, Fort McMurray, Medicine Hat, Regina and Saskatoon.

6516             As career broadcasters, CJVR is confident in the economic future of Saskatchewan as evidenced by our substantial investment in Melfort and the level of additional expenditures that my family has committed to in establishing new FM undertakings in Saskatoon and Regina.

6517             MR. SINGER:  Madam Chair, Saskatoon is more to CJVR than just another radio market applied for, one more licence ‑‑ or one more licence to add to a growing chain of stations.

6518             Rather, Saskatoon is central to CJVR's needs to rationalize its radio operations in Saskatchewan.  It represents an integral part of our future lifeblood, and it serves as a linchpin to CJVR realizing its full broadcasting potential in its home province.

6519             If approved for Classic 89 and Oldies 106, CJVR comes to the Saskatoon market not as a stranger, but as a friend and a contributor who has been a part of the Saskatoon community for many years.  As such, we have developed strong and lasting relationships within its business, cultural and educational sectors.

6520             CJVR, for example, has maintained a full‑time sales office in Saskatoon for 11 years to accommodate local businesses who purchase air time on the Melfort radio stations in order to access the thousands of listeners throughout our coverage area who regularly travel to Saskatoon as the service centre for the region.

6521             I'm proud to say that CJVR's AM station CK750 has been the official radio voice of the University of Saskatchewan Huskies football team for over ten years and retains the broadcasting rights to all of their home and away games through to the end of the 2014 season, and we are the host broadcaster for the Vanier Cup, which will be played in Saskatoon on the 25th of this month.

6522             The live play‑by‑play broadcasts reach alumni and Huskie fans throughout the province, across Canada and around the world via CK750's on‑line streaming service.

6523             Further, in response to the University's fundraising campaign, Thinking the World of Our Future, CJVR, on behalf of the Fabro family, donated $275,000 to the cause.  Part of the donation will support the Huskies athletic programs, and the balance will help support additional upgrades to Griffith Stadium.

6524             While these are but a few examples of the kinds of ongoing relationships that CJVR has fostered over the years, they serve to underline the close affinity between our Melfort radio stations, the City of Saskatoon and its many parts.

6525             From the time the Fabro family acquired CJVR as business people and entrepreneurs, it was obvious that expanding to other Saskatchewan markets was critical to our long‑term success in the radio industry.

6526             Given our close proximity to the largest radio market in Saskatchewan, coupled with the historic ties that link the two communities in so many ways, applying for Saskatoon is a natural progression in CJVR's evolution as an independent, dedicated Saskatchewan‑based radio company.  In short, CJVR and Saskatoon are a natural fit.

6527             MR. FABRO:  Madam Chair and Commissioners, one of the many challenges facing the Commission today in today's broadcast environment is to strike a balance between preserving the diversity of news voices in the market and the benefits of permitting increased ownership consolidation.

6528             The issues of diversity and consolidation, in our view, can be offset by licensing motivated, independent broadcasters like CJVR, with the credentials to be a viable licensing alternative to a larger corporate interest and even more concentration.

6529             It is our belief that the balance weighs heavily on the side of concentration in the Saskatoon market at the expense of news diversity, given the fact that all six radio stations are controlled by two ownership groups.

6530             Approval of CJVR's proposed new FM stations will help correct the diversity and ownership concentration issues by establishing competitive balance within Saskatoon's radio market through the addition of a distinct alternative news voice and increased ownership diversity.

6531             Of further concern to CJVR is the fact that 26 of 35 English language commercial radio stations in Saskatchewan are controlled by the same two ownership groups.  That's almost 75 percent concentration within the province.  The highest in the land.

6532             MR. GEMMELL:  Madam Chair, based on our own intimate knowledge of the local market, the results of extensive consumer demands research and the echos of dissatisfaction from the listening public, it is clearly evident that Saskatoon's local radio spectrum needs new blood.

6533             One frustrated listener in her letter of intervention to the Commission stated:  "I know many people, including myself, who have gone to satellite radio because of their lack of satisfaction with the current radio stations in Saskatoon.  We need new radio stations here, and I believe we are way behind the times in comparison to other larger cities with their choices of radio stations."

6534             CJVR's research of the Saskatoon market indicates 22 percent of listeners are tuning out local radio and tuning in to distant stations, satellite radio and the Internet to find their musical preferences.

6535             Some 70 percent say they would listen to more radio if the programming they liked was available.  65 percent agree that most Saskatoon stations offer similar programming, and 50 percent say they are not satisfied with the choice of local stations.

6536             In this regard, CJVR's proposed new classic rock and oldies unduplicated formats, if approved, will provide significant musical and spoken word diversity and listener choice to meet the unfulfilled needs and stated preferences of Saskatoon's 35‑44 and 45 plus underserved demographic.

6537             MR. SINGER:  Madam Chair, CJVR's ability to compete with multiple station operators is hampered by the fact that we currently do not have access to larger urban markets, like the majority of other applicants.

6538             By comparison, CJVR, as a heritage Saskatchewan broadcaster, serves a widely spread population of 150,000 people living in more than 100 largely rural communities, ranging from Nipawin in the northeast, to Tisdale in the east, to Hudson Bay in the far east.

6539             As such, CJVR cannot afford to idly sit and watch competitors pass us by.  We need to grow our company now, while there are still significant developmental opportunities like those created by the Commission's call for Saskatoon and Regina.

6540             Approval of our proposed new FM stations will have a very positive impact on CJVR's broadcast operations well beyond the urban boundaries of Saskatoon, an impact that will greatly assist the company in its efforts to:

‑ Stabilize and maintain the high quality of existing broadcasting services that its Melfort stations have been providing to northeast Saskatchewan listeners for over four decades.

‑ To help compensate for the erosion of its listeners and revenue base caused by the combination of Saskatchewan's rural to urban migration patterns, and the steady outflow of workers to Alberta's job rich energy sector.

‑ To bolster the financial viability of its Melfort AM/FM stations, whose revenues have been severely impacted by lower power undertakings operating within their regional coverage area.

‑ To enable CJVR to realize more of the common operating efficiencies enjoyed by multiple station operators through shared synergies.

‑ To enhance CJVR's ability to compete on more equal terms with larger broadcast groups in Saskatchewan and Alberta as we implement our strategic broadcast plan.

‑ To enable CJVR to attract and retain new and experienced broadcast talent by providing them with fresh challenges and greater opportunities within a growing company dedicated to radio.

‑ To maintain the voice of independent broadcasters within today's milieu of ownership concentration in markets like Saskatoon and Regina; and

‑ To extend to other markets CJVR's brand of radio, offering great music, locally relevant/community driven spoken‑word programming, and a firm commitment to the development and exposure of Canadian talent.

6541             MR. GEMMELL:  Madam Chair, in response to the call, CJVR engaged Insightrix Research Services to undertake a consumer demand study and economic analysis of Saskatoon, to determine both the need for additional local radio services and the market's ability to support any new undertakings.

6542             Results of IRS study underline both the demand for new FM services to meet the needs and listener preferences of an underserved 35 to 54 demographic, and a vibrant and growing market economy that can readily support new FM radio undertakings with minimal impact to existing Saskatoon stations.

6543             In preparing the business plans for Saskatoon and Regina, CJVR recognized the challenge that any new entrant would face in either market, by having to compete with two ownership groups, each of whom operate three stations in the market.

6544             CJVR concluded that in order to compete in such a concentrated environment, it was necessary to develop a strategy that would help negate the competitive advantage enjoyed by the two incumbent ownership groups.

6545             After a careful review of the IRS studies and its own knowledge of the local radio markets, CJVR concluded that the best competitive approach for both Saskatoon and Regina was to apply for two licences.

6546             MS HARPER:  Madam Chair, essentially the IRS study underlined the degree to which Saskatoon's 35 to 54 year‑old demographic spectrum is underserved relative to the music listening needs and preferences.

6547             Further, the study points to the changing trends within Saskatoon's population which shows that the 30 to 39 year‑old demographic component has steadily decreased over the past six years.

6548             This trend reserves itself, however, within the 40 to 44 age group, and reflects a major increase in the 45‑54 year‑old component, which is the cohort of Saskatoon's maturing population.

6549             Despite Saskatoon's population growth and vibrant economy, it only has six local private radio stations serving nearly 237,000 persons.  The six stations provide a broad range of musical styles that largely cater to the 18 to 34 demographic at the near exclusion of the 35 to 44 and 45 to 54 age groupings.

6550             Hence, in determining which combination of formats would be most compatible in terms of diversity and listener choice, programming and having the least impact on existing stations, it was evident to CJVR that classic rock and oldies made the most sense.

6551             As an integral part of its consumer demand study, IRS presented a 15‑item battery of music genres to 500 respondents aged 18 to 54 in seeking to determine how often they listened to each of the music styles.

6552             The IRS music popularity survey indicated that while the prime audience for CJVR's proposed classic rock station is the 35 to 44 age group at 81 percent, nearly 68 percent of those that were aged 45 to 54 were interested in classic rock.

6553             Similarly, while the prime interest in the proposed oldies station is the 45 to 54 age group at 68 percent, over 50 percent of the 35 to 44 year olds were interested in oldies music and would listen to the station.

6554             MR. MARCOUX:  Madam Chair, the approval of CJVR's Classic 89 and Oldies 106 will largely meet the needs of the 34‑44 and 45‑54 demographic spectrums.

6555             By serving this important sector of Saskatoon's population with two FM services, both stations can specifically target their primary audience, and thus provide better service than one station trying to be more things to more listeners within the broader 35‑54 year‑old demographic.

6556             From CJVR's perspective, the music and spoken word initiatives of Classic 89 and Oldies 106 will also significantly strengthen Saskatoon's local radio market by attracting new listeners and repatriating the 22 percent of residents who tune out of market to access their musical preferences.

6557             MR. GEMMELL:  Madam Chair, in dealing with Classic 89's music, and the level of diversity it will bring to the Saskatoon market, I would again refer to the IRS survey, which showed that classic rock at nearly 74 percent was the most popular style of music among respondents.

6558             While scoring very well across all age groups, the 35 to 44 group was the highest at 81 percent, followed by the 25 to 34 group at 74 percent, and the 45 to 54 group at nearly 68 percent.

6559             Taking the results of the IRS survey and measuring them against the music formats currently available in Saskatoon, there is no station that specifically targets the classic rock genre in spite of its popularity relative to other music styles.

6560             CJVR, in programming Classic 89 musically will specialize in playing classic rock, including milestone rock albums.  The play list will feature music by international artists such as Tom Petty, Pink Floyd, Santana, The Eagles, The Rolling Stones, The Beatles and Canadian artists like Bryan Adams, The Guess Who, Neil Young, Tragically Hip and Streetheart, to name but a few.

6561             We would like to provide you with a sense of how Classic 89 will sound and feel musically with the following montage.

‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip audio

6562             MR. SINCLAIR:  As a means of creating even more musical diversity and enhancing both established and developing Canadian artists, CJVR will produce in studio a daily 20‑minute program called Canadians on Track, which will run Monday to Sunday at 3:00.

6563             A second programming initiative entitled Saskatchewan Rocks is a 60‑minute program that again will be produced in studio and is scheduled to run in prime time on Saturday evening from 8 to 9:00.

6564             Among the key findings of the IRS demand study is the fact that 76 percent of respondents on hearing a description of the proposed Classic 89's musical and spoken word programming, stated they were very or somewhat likely to listen to the station.

6565             Within the various age groups being targeted, 86 percent of respondents aged 35 to 44 indicated they would likely listen to the new station, followed by nearly 80 percent of those aged 45 to 54, and 65 percent of those aged 25 to 34.

6566             In keeping with the fact that 40 plus is the fastest growing demographic in Saskatoon and the least served, CJVR's second proposed musical format is oldies.

6567             Currently those wanting to listen to oldies music have to tune into a variety of stations with formats ranging from CJMK's adult contemporary to CJWW's country information.  The problem is that none of these stations play more than a small sampling of oldies music.

6568             Essentially, as a dedicated oldies station, rather than some hybrid variety, Oldies 106 will feature hits from the '50s and '60s by international artists Elvis Presley, The Beach Boys, The Beatles and Buddy Holly, and Canadian artists like Joni Mitchell, Paul Anka, Bobby Curtola, Gordon Lightfoot, Andy Kim and The Poppy Family, to name a few.

6569             We would like to provide you with a sense of how Oldies 106 will sound and feel musically with the following montage.

‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip audio

6570             MR. SINCLAIR:  Oldies 106 will also feature specialized nostalgia programming for the 45 plus demographic, such as big band music from the '40s.  There will also be an album component to the station featuring classic albums by the biggest artists of the '50s and '60s.

6571             In creating even more musical diversity, CJVR will produce in studio two special musical programs, namely The Great Canadian Song Book and Canadian Folk, both of which will profile and play the music of Canadian pop and rock artists of the past, as well as Canadian folk music artists.

6572             MR. GEMMELL:  Madam Chair, with respect to spoken word programming, the IRS study noted that listener needs and preferences included local news, weather, road conditions and closures, school closings and bus cancellations, updates on local community events and activities, national news and sports scores.

6573             On the cultural side, Saskatoon residents expressed interest in updates on the entertainment scene and cultural events, the exposure and promotion of local Canadian artists and performers and a reflection of local history, people, events, cultural heritage and lifestyle programs and features.

6574             That beginning with daily news coverage, Classic 89 will bring an independent news voice to the Saskatoon market that will increase diversity and provide an alternative perspective on issues and events of direct relevance and interest to residents throughout the coverage area.

6575             Classic 89 will employ a news director and four full‑time news reporters.  The station will broadcast local news at the top of the hour and every half hour in the mornings, and again during selected hours throughout the day, as well as on weekends.

6576             In all, the station will provide over five hours of scheduled newscasts per week, plus additional surveillance material when necessary and as it becomes available.

6577             MR. SINGER:  Madam Chair, CJVR will reach out in an inclusive fashion to the rapidly growing Aboriginal population, and the increasing number of ethnic groups, among others, and through a series of unique spoken word initiatives, build bridges of understanding between people by giving them a radio voice.

6578             This will be achieved a number of ways, including the recruitment of a network of correspondents who will assist in providing Classic 89 with information on events and activities specific to their own communities.

6579             These 90‑second spots known as Community Connections will be featured four times daily, along with Culturally Speaking information snippets on current and upcoming events and activities that will be highlighted ever hour.

6580             Included among the special features that will be incorporated daily into Classic 89's program schedule are such programs as Saskatoon Lifestyle, City Beat, Live from the U of S, School of the Day and Listener Feedback.

6581             CJVR, in recognition of the dramatic growth of the Aboriginal communities in both Saskatoon and Regina, felt it was important that initiatives be taken to help foster greater understanding and communication between Aboriginals and the broader community.

6582             As such CJVR has retained the services of Mr. Harrison Thunderchild, a distinguished member of the Aboriginal community, an educator, and a prominent member of the Office of the Treaty Commission Speakers Bureau.

6583             Mr. Thunderchild has agreed to serve as CJVR's Aboriginal special program coordinator.  In this capacity he will help produce and host a series of features to be known as The Bridge.

6584             These two‑minute features will run twice daily and share the Aboriginal community's culture, highlight its successes, and help foster greater understanding and awareness of Native issues and concerns.

6585             In addition, Mr. Thunderchild will contribute to a special 15‑minute segment on the Sunday news magazine show, A Saskatoon Perspective, which runs on Oldies 106.

6586             MR. GEMMELL:  Madam Chair and Commissioners, Oldies 106 in addition to delivering great music, will provide it's currently underserved 45‑54 audience with a blend of locally relevant spoken word programming that will address their news and informational priorities.

6587             Further to the news, information and special features programs that Oldies 106 will share with Classic 89, there are a number of special features that are exclusive to Oldies 106.  These include Prairie Mosaics, This Week on Campus, Huskies Football, This Week in Politics and Stock Market Report.

6588             As well, the news magazine show, A Saskatoon Perspective, is a 60‑minute production that will run Sundays at 11 a.m.  The program will feature four 15‑minute segments.  One segment will be devoted to the Aboriginal community, a second to Saskatoon's diverse ethnic communities, a third to the business community, and the fourth will be an omnibus component.

6589             MR. FABRO:  Madam Chair, in our applications for Saskatoon and Regina, CJVR and my family made an unprecedented level of direct expenditures on Canadian talent initiatives across the diverse field of educational, cultural and music driven endeavours.

6590             Approval of Classic 89 and Oldies 106 will yield a minimum of $3 million in direct expenditures, along with an indirect on‑air expenditure budget of 2 million.  The combined 5 million in direct and indirect expenditures will have a profoundly beneficial impact on Saskatchewan talent at all levels for years to come.

6591             While my family is proud of CJVR's achievements for Canadian talent to this point, approval of our Saskatoon and Regina applications will result in higher expenditure levels and a broadened mandate for CJVR to do its very best for Saskatchewan and Canada's developing young talent.

6592             MR. SINGER:  Madam Chair, I would draw attention to the significant commitment that CJVR has made to the Aboriginal community through dedicated scholarship funds for broadcast journalism and music in both the Saskatoon and Regina markets.

6593             In Saskatoon, for example, CJVR will establish a minimum of $535,000 in Aboriginal scholarships.  Of this amount 365,000 will be allocated to broadcast journalism scholarships, and 170,000 will go to the music scholarship fund.

6594             Given the dramatic growth of the Aboriginal population in Saskatchewan, it is vital that young Aboriginals receive the necessary training and education to ensure their full participation in the economic activities of Saskatoon, Regina and elsewhere.

6595             It was essentially within that spirit that CJVR, in consultation with Aboriginal educators like Mr. Thunderchild, among others, has developed an Aboriginal scholarship fund to assist those qualified students interested in pursuing careers in broadcast journalism and music in realizing their objectives.

6596             To ensure the Aboriginal scholarship fund yields maximum benefits to the Aboriginal community, CJVR will work closely with community leaders, educators and organizations relative to the Aboriginal community for ongoing advice and direction.

6597             MR. FABRO:  Madam Chair, CJVR's Aboriginal scholarship objective is very much in keeping with my family's passion and commitment to help make a difference in the lives of talented young Canadians.

6598             This is further exemplified by the Horizons Unlimited initiative which is founded on the basic philosophy that talented youth should not have their goals and dreams limited or sidetracked by a lack of resources and proper mentoring.

6599             Through the financial assistance and attendant support structure inherent within Horizons Unlimited, Saskatchewan's talented youth, through hard work and commitment, can live their dreams in the realization that indeed their horizons can be unlimited.

6600             The total direct expenditure budget, based on approval of both Classic 89 and Oldies 106 totals $3 million as follows:

‑ Aboriginal scholarships $535,000

‑ University of Saskatchewan department of music program $307,500

‑ U of R Faculty of Arts journalism $452,500

‑ Horizons Unlimited $586,000

‑ Music Business 101 $172,000

‑ Opening Acts $492,000

‑ FACTOR/CAB Talent Fund $120,000

‑ Saskatoon Folk Fest $99,000

‑ Saskatoon Symphony $169,000

‑ the Saskatchewan Recording Industry Association $67,000.

6601             MR. MARCOUX:  Madam Chair, a recent supplement in the Globe and Mail stated, "Saskatchewan's landscape may be flat, but its economy is clearly on a roll."  And headlines like "Hi‑yo Silver, Saskatoon's economy among best in country," which appeared in the September 15th addition of the Star Phoenix, and "Saskatchewan Economy Resources Are Red Hot," appearing in yesterday's Leader Post reflect the strength of Saskatchewan's economy.

6602             Some comments, while ruling the day for doomsayers brigade, succinctly describes the momentum of Saskatchewan's diversified economy as evidenced by the fact that its economic growth rate has outpaced the national average for three consecutive years according to Stats Canada.

6603             The local market economies of Saskatoon and Regina, inextricably linked to Saskatchewan's provincial economy, are buoyant in terms of economic growth and activity.

6604             Both cities are beneficiaries of the rural to urban population shift that is occurring, and likely to continue at the expense of many small rural communities, like those our Melfort stations are dependent on for their revenue.

6605             An examination of some of the key economic indicators relative to Saskatoon in terms of its population, retail sales, read GDP growth and employment rates, among others, are all heading in the right direction, along with healthy forecasts for continued growth.

6606             MR. GEMMELL:  With respect to the local broadcast economy, CJVR concluded that 16 percent or 16.64 million of the $104 million of available advertising revenues in the Saskatoon market should be obtainable by all local radio.  We believe the six existing stations currently garner about 14.5 million and operate profitably.  This would leave about 2.14 million for our market entrant.

6607             Further to our market study, however, as noted in a report filed relative to these proceedings, of the entire province's radio advertising expenditures of 64 million, about 56 percent or 36 million is captured by all radio in Saskatoon and Regina.  Splitting the potential revenue based on the population proportions would be 46 percent Regina and 54 percent Saskatoon, or $16.6 million for Regina and $19.4 million in revenue for Saskatoon.  Using these market figures, the available advertising dollars for a new entrant in Saskatoon would be closer to $3.4 million.

6608             MR. SINGER:  Madam Chair, based on the musical and spoken word programming initiatives for both Classic 89 and Oldies 106, should the Commission licence this dynamic duo of diversity, Saskatoon's 35 to 44 and 45 to 54 listenership spectrum's current status of being underserved will quickly and dramatically change.

6609             MR. FABRO:  Madam Chair and Commissioners, CJVR needs Saskatoon and Regina markets in order to meaningfully grow our business and realize our broadcasting objectives for Saskatchewan.

6610             We have not come to this hearing with a small broadcaster's cap in hand, rather we have come forward with major commitments that are commensurate with opportunities and responsibilities that are inherent within what is ‑‑ what CJVR is requesting from the Commission.

6611             On behalf of my CJVR colleagues and the Fabro family, we wish to thank you for the opportunities this week to tell our story, and we respectfully ask for your approval of all our applications.

6612             I also want to thank the commission staff for the courtesy they extended to our team both before and during the hearing.  And finally, we wish you well in your deliberations and a safe trip home.  Merci beaucoup.

6613             THE CHAIRPERSON:  It's a ten‑minute drive to my home, I love it.

6614             Mr. Fabro, we were talking, was it yesterday or the day before, in the Regina hearing, the Regina portion of the hearing, about what you would prefer.  And I thought you were going to ‑‑ are you ready to tell me what you're ‑‑ I know you're ‑‑

6615             MR. FABRO:  Yes, we're ready.  We're ready to tell you.

6616             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I know your wish list.  I know the Christmas wish list.  What would be ‑‑ what would be second best?

6617             MR. FABRO:  Well, let me put it this way.  Like I said to my colleagues, I think it was yesterday, that it's kind of like losing one of your children.  You're asking us to choose which child do you want to take away from us.  These are very dear and near to our heart.

6618             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Except it's really an economic issue too?

6619             MR. FABRO:  Yes, it is.

6620             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

6621             MR. FABRO:  But if we were to put it this way, if you were to grant four licences obviously we would like two in each market.  If you were to grant three licences, we would like to have two in Saskatoon, one in Regina.  If you were to grant two licences, we would like to have one in Regina and one in Saskatoon.  And if you were to grant one licence overall, we would like to have one licence in Saskatoon.

6622             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And in both scenario three and four, which licence would you ‑‑ which of the classic hits or oldies would you like?

6623             MR. FABRO:  We would choose classic hits.

6624             THE CHAIRPERSON:  In both circumstances?

6625             MR. FABRO:  In both scenarios, correct.

6626             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

6627             MR. FABRO:  Classic rock, pardon me.

6628             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Classic ‑‑  yes.

6629             MR. FABRO:  We're both getting confused here.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6630             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The non‑oldies?

6631             MR. FABRO:  That's right

6632             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you've ‑‑ you're up to speed on this, on the programming now, and I don't really have to ask very many questions because you've got the ‑‑ where you're simulcasting or repeating it.  You're not necessarily simulcasting, are you?  For instance, the Week in Politics would be heard at different times?

6633             MR. SINGER:  Yes, that is correct.  And the programs, where possible, would be localized as well.

6634             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

6635             MR. SINGER:  The main content would be ‑‑ would be common, but they would be produced by the local stations in each market.

6636             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  So now I'm mixed up.  The Week in Politics, this wouldn't be the same Week in Politics as would be run on the Regina stations?

6637             MR. SINGER:  That is ‑‑ that is correct.  It would be a feature that's put together by your combined news departments, Regina and Saskatoon.

6638             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, okay.

6639             MR. SINGER:  Yes.

6640             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  So now ‑‑ okay, so the Week in Politics would be shown then on all four stations, four proposed stations, and would be common to all four stations?

6641             MR. SINGER:  That is correct.

6642             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Is that true of any other spoken word programming?

6643             MR. SINGER:  I think that would be the only one on here that would be common to the ‑‑ to all four.  Now, the same features, type of features, would be running in both markets, but again, they would be produced by the various people.

6644             THE CHAIRPERSON:  By either Saskatoon for Saskatoon ‑‑

6645             MR. SINGER:  Yes.

6646             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ and Regina for Regina?

6647             MR. SINGER:  But there would be a sharing of these as well, because our philosophy is that there is information of events and things going on in Regina that we would certainly share with the Saskatoon audience.  I think there's ‑‑ there's a lot of similarities between these two markets.  I'm one of those transplanted people that grew up in Saskatoon, spent 22 years in Regina.  I always had an interest in my ‑‑ what was going on at home when I lived in Regina.  So certainly we see an opportunity here to cross‑promote things and happenings in either city.

6648             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But, I mean, you'd send the content down essentially by e‑mail, down or up, and they'd just use that information, wouldn't they?

6649             MR. SINGER:  Yes.  We ‑‑ as I say, we would share that information, and if it was needed we would certainly add a local element to it as well.  So it would be a combination of the two station's inputs to the production of those shows.

6650             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And if a single station, be it either classic or oldies, were licensed, you would still have the spoken word under the ‑‑ the various columns?  You would still have the spoken record under the classics and/or if you got the oldies, you'd have it under that column?

6651             MR. SINGER:  Yes, we would.

6652             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  The news staff for two of them will consist of four and a half reporters; am I right on that, including a director?

6653             MR. SINGER:  I believe that's correct.  Linda ...?

6654             MS RHEAUME:  For a combo station it would be five.

6655             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Five?

6656             MS RHEAUME:  Yes.

6657             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And for a single station?

6658             MS RHEAUME:  Three and a half.

6659             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Three and a half, okay.  If you had the dual stations, it would be the same newsroom, same newscast, and a single news director?

6660             MR. SINGER:  That is correct.

6661             THE CHAIRPERSON:  On classic hits, how much of the programming would be live to air preprogrammed locally?

6662             MR. SINGER:  The amount is the same as we discussed yesterday, 86 percent or 108 hours of our programming would be live, 18 hours would be voice tracked.

6663             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

6664             MR. SINGER:  And that would be the same for ‑‑

6665             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The oldies?

6666             MR. SINGER:  All four radio stations, Regina and Saskatoon.

6667             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And when would there be the voice tracking?

6668             MR. SINGER:  The voice tracking would be from ten ‑‑ weekdays, Monday through Friday, from 10 p.m. to midnight.  Also Saturday ten to midnight and then from 8 p.m. until midnight on Sunday.

6669             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  And will you accept a COL to have a minimum of 108 hours live to air or locally produced programming during the broadcast week?

6670             MR. SINGER:  Yes.  Yes, we would.

6671             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Now, I guess when I was looking at your Regina station I was looking at the Huskies, and I was sort of asking myself ‑‑ the Huskies, for my colleagues' information, is the U of S football team and hockey team and all of them are called Huskies.  It would certainly be more relevant, I know you've got the rights until 2014?

6672             MR. SINGER:  14, yes.

6673             THE CHAIRPERSON:  It would be more relevant to Saskatoon than to Regina, wouldn't it?

6674             MR. SINGER:  Well, you know, that's an interesting question, because when we first started with the Huskies broadcasts more than ten years ago, there was quite a few asked me why the heck would a station in Melfort want to do the Huskies football broadcasts?

6675             If you look at the rosters of these teams, they're young talented athletes that grew up all over Saskatchewan, and there's a tremendous feedback on ‑‑ of appreciation for broadcasting these games.  These young players' families are all over the province and all over the world actually.

6676             There's also the alumni.  We get constant feedback from U of S Huskies alumni saying thanks for putting these games on.  I think if you attended the University of Saskatchewan, no matter where you live, you're still a Huskies fan.

6677             The other point, Madam Commissioner ‑‑ Madam Chair, is that to our knowledge the Regina college team games are broadcast in Regina by one of the incumbent stations.  So this would offer some balance, and certainly I know that probably in the City of Regina there's probably more Regina fans, but again, it's ‑‑ we look at it as an opportunity to broadcast those games for the other reasons.

6678             And should ‑‑ now just back to your point should we be given ‑‑ our intention is to run those Huskies broadcasts on our AM in Melfort where it originates, on our oldies FM in Saskatoon, and our oldies in Regina.  If we ‑‑ now, if we were only given the one licence and it was classic rock, we would certainly consider putting those names on the licence that we were granted.  So ‑‑

6679             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, you did the same this time, Mr. Singer, on 7.2 in the application, you ticked $3,000 to the CAB and in addition.  So I take it that your answer in this case is the same as last time?

6680             MR. SINGER:  Yes, it is.  That was our error, and we have obviously designated those funds to the CAB or to the FACTOR.

6681             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And since we spoke the other day, have you had an opportunity to look at the FNUC curriculum to see if they're ‑‑ if you would make it eligible for a student attending FNUC to get the scholarships?

6682             MR. SINGER:  Yes, we have, Madam Chair.  And in further discussion with our future Aboriginal coordinator, Mr. Thunderchild, Harrison has indicated to us that there are programs there that could be considered as prejournalism.  We certainly have to do some further investigation, but I think primarily we ‑‑ we are very interested in working with FNUC to help us to recruit and identify who some possible students would be that could be recipients of these ‑‑ of these funds for journalism or music studies.

6683             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And have you looked at the SIIT curriculum in Saskatoon to see if again there could be some eligibility for that?

6684             MR. SINGER:  We ‑‑ that's another area we have spoken about, and we said we certainly would pursue that as well because I think we want to make this as broad based as possible.  We don't want to shut out any opportunities for some Aboriginal students to have access to these opportunities.

6685             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  Because I have to tell you, I mean, if I was Aboriginal and I was living in Regina, my first choice would be to go to FNUC rather than the U of R, clearly.  I mean ‑‑

6686             MR. SINGER:  We understand that.

6687             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, I want to go back to the discussion we had a couple of days ago.  I find it difficult to have exclusive Aboriginal scholarships and then scholarships that are non‑Aboriginal.  Would you find it acceptable to consider them all together and say ‑‑ and I don't know the proportion of which, but say a minimum of which shall go to ‑‑ and I'll give you an example.  You've got Aboriginal scholarships, then you've got music and U of R journalism.  And I'm going to say, let's say, one dollar is assigned to each.  If you lumped them together and said $3 was to go to either U of S music, journalism scholarships at the U of R and/or FNUC, with ‑‑ one of which ‑‑ a minimum of one of which, to be given mandatorily to an Aboriginal?

6688             MR. SINGER:  I think the ratio is actually higher than that the way we have it set up.

6689             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I know, but I'm just using ‑‑ the concept is rather than excluding Aboriginals, you've got one for Aboriginals and then two more for non‑Aboriginals, which I find hard to deal with.  Would you accept that they would be the total with a minimum amount per month to go to Aboriginals, and in that way they would not be foreclosed if they were ‑‑

6690             MR. SINGER:  Yes.

6691             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ better than anybody else to get more.

6692             MR. SINGER:  Yes.  I don't have a problem with that.  Our intention here was to earmark a significant amount of dollars that would only be available to the Aboriginals.

6693             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

6694             MR. SINGER:  And the way we have structured ‑‑

6695             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But you wouldn't want to foreclose them from more?

6696             MR. SINGER:  No.

6697             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If they indeed were, you know, qualified for more, would you?

6698             MR. SINGER:  No, we wouldn't want to do that.  And I think if you look at the ‑‑ and I can file this.  I've done a spreadsheet of the comparisons of the two initiatives, Aboriginal and non‑Aboriginal, I'd be happy to file a copy of that.

6699             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah, well, we will be discussing, going right through when we get there.

6700             MR. FABRO:  Okay.

6701             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am not ‑‑

6702             MR. FABRO:  I think what you're saying, Madam Chair, is that the minimum would be what we presented, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the maximum, as simply as that, in terms of ‑‑ what you're saying, if I understand you, is that the Aboriginal scholarship that we've proposed, there's no maximum, but there is a minimum?

6703             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's right.  You would tie all three of them together ‑‑

6704             MR. FABRO:  Right.

6705             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ and say there would be a minimum amount that would go to an Aboriginal.  But, I mean, one of these days ‑‑

6706             MR. FABRO:  No, I agree.  I think that's a great idea.

6707             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  Now, can I shorten this up by saying the number and the amount of scholarships are the same as in the Regina application?

6708             MR. SINGER:  The scholarships are increments of $2,500, so I would have to look up the figures.  Again, our commitments between ‑‑ in Regina are somewhat less overall because our revenue pictures are projected as less.  So there are some differences.  They're slight.  But we worked this plan on the basis of increments of $2,500 each.  So, as I say, the initiatives in Regina will be a little bit less in terms of the total seven‑year commitment.

6709             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  So we can figure out the number by dividing by 2,500 for each?

6710             MR. SINGER:  Correct.

6711             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  My next question is, you know, it's sort of like what if you, you know, called a meeting and nobody showed up?  What happens if you don't have enough applicants for the money in any given year?  Because I don't know if you figured ‑‑ if you've heard around the room, when Missinipi can't find people to work for them, and APTN I know has looks and they get the cream of the crop, it's difficult to find Aboriginals who are interested in, you know, going and pursuing a career in journalism or ‑‑ I mean, some are, and/or broadcasting.

6712             MR. SINGER:  Yes.  Well, I guess we will only find that out by trying these initiatives, but I can tell you that we certainly would be quite flexible in seeing what we could do.

6713             And I'd like to perhaps just give Mr. Thunderchild an opportunity, and certainly we would consult with Harrison as to his ideas, and maybe he has some right now and I'll give him a chance to respond to that, Madam Chair.

6714             MR. THUNDERCHILD:  Thank you, Ken.  Madam Chair, good afternoon.

6715             I would like to answer that by stating that the area of communications and that is a field of discipline that has recently opened up, you know, thanks to APTN and NBC radio and the likes and that.  There's a radio station out of Alberta.  And what we've done in this with the Aboriginal scholarship was we've conducted research through word of mouth, through the different institutions that specialize in communication.  I am a product of the Aboriginal education program, communication program, out of Edmonton, which was under the umbrella of a station out of Lac la Biche.

6716             Now, in saying that, with the creation of APTN network, we have students that are just finding out that there are more radio, journalism, broadcasting opportunities that are being made available.

6717             And I will speak from experience.  Last night, Madam Chair, I was at the casino where I was approached, yes, how can I get into broadcast journalism?  And these are professional background First Nation people from Manitoba that approached us.  So there is definitely ‑‑ you have to go to the proper institutions and get your contacts in line with the prospect graduates for that coming year and then you go from there.  It's like planting a seed and harvesting, you know, at harvest time.  And we would approach that in the same manner, Madam Chair.

6718             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mine was more sort of a legal question.  Like, what if you didn't have enough applicants?  And would the money roll over into the next year?  That's my point.

6719             MR. SINGER:  That would be I think a first option.  The other thing is if there was an imbalance and we ‑‑ let's say there weren't enough applicants for the music side of the equation, we could also consider moving some ‑‑ more of the music funding into the journalism side.  I think the idea here is we really want to approach this on the basis of is it working and is it doing everything we thought it would do?  And if there are adjustments along the way, we're going to find other Aboriginal initiatives that qualify under the CTD definition.

6720             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You're tied in by COL with these things, you recognize?

6721             MR. SINGER:  Well, I recognize ‑‑

6722             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And they're very specific.

6723             MR. SINGER:  Yes.

6724             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And these are your specific ‑‑ so you can't take money out of a scholarship program for music scholarships and put it into journalism.  If that's ‑‑ it you're proposing that, then you have to be far more general in the way you propose it.

6725             MR. SINGER:  Okay.  Well, I guess, of course, we would consult with the CRTC to make changes if it was necessary, if we felt it wasn't working.

6726             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No consulting, there's an application involved.

6727             MR. SINGER:  Yes.

6728             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you want to move one penny you have to come to us.

6729             MR. SINGER:  Mmhmm.

6730             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So ‑‑ and how are the recipients going to be chosen?  You said last time it would be the university and you.  Well, now if we've got FNUC involved, and maybe SIIT, how are you going to choose the recipients?

6731             MR. SINGER:  Well, I think working with those institutional ‑‑ or with those educational institutions, we would develop a criteria certainly using their input as to the best way to set the criteria and the guidelines for qualifying students.

6732             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Horizon's Unlimited, similar to Regina?

6733             MR. SINGER:  Yes.

6734             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mmhmm.  And how are you going to ensure that the monies are going to go to eligible CTD?

6735             MR. SINGER:  Once again we are working with the Saskatchewan Music Educators Association on this initiative and we would certainly structure a very definite guideline as to how the funds are ‑‑ are earmarked, and also a reporting process that we're kept in the loop as to the dollars being used and distributed.

6736             And I have Joan Therens with us on our panel today who could certainly speak to that as well.

6737             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We discussed it last time though.

6738             MR. SINGER:  Okay.

6739             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it's probably not ‑‑ Saskatoon Folk Fest, again how are you going to ensure it's eligible CTD?

6740             MR. SINGER:  The Folk Fest Society itself does set up grants for the operation of the various pavilions.  And in our discussions with them we did identify these would clearly have to be ‑‑ our funds would clearly have to be used to pay direct dollars to the musical entertainment that was going to be there.  So we would have a full report as to who the groups were, what they were paid.

6741             THE CHAIRPERSON:  FACTOR, again the same issue as to it being directed to Saskatoon.  And you were to get documentation about that, as to whether or not the monies were incremental and as to whether or not they would roll over into the general fund.  And if you cannot get that commitment from FACTOR you would be redirecting ‑‑ redirecting it?

6742             MR. SINGER:  Yes, we would.  And we've had discussion with FACTOR in the last day, and we are awaiting such a letter.  And they are aware that if they cannot meet those three criteria, that we will look at an alternative way to use that money.  And it would be directed ‑‑ our plan today is that it would go into the SRIA, Saskatchewan Reporting Industry fund.

6743             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Opening Act, again identical to Regina in terms of ‑‑

6744             MR. SINGER:  Identical concept, different venues, different bands.

6745             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  And it's going to be on the classic rock if it fits with the format; is that the idea?

6746             MR. SINGER:  Yes, that is correct.  If we were not granted the classic rock format, we would have to look at how we could retool that.  It has a better fit with Classic Rock than it does with oldies.

6747             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Indeed, yes.  Music business 101, the breakdown is the same?

6748             MR. SINGER:  Yes, it is.

6749             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

6750             MR. SINGER:  Well, the break ‑‑ actually, the breakdown is a percentage of the total.

6751             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.

6752             MR. SINGER:  I believe we did file that breakdown, but it ‑‑ I can quickly give it to you.

6753             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, you did for Regina.

6754             MR. SINGER:  Yes.  Basically the formula is that 75 percent of the ‑‑ the annual initiative would be dedicated to fees paid to the actual industry professionals.  15 percent would be facility rental.  These are fairly ‑‑ estimates at this point, but 5 percent would be equipment rental and another 5 percent would be additional promotions, such as posters, any non ‑‑ any advertising outside what we'd be providing on the air, which would be significant on the air.

6755             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mmhmm.  And you are considering still the possibility of working with SRIA?

6756             MR. SINGER:  Yes, we are, definitely.  We see that as an opportunity to just strengthen a program they already have, and they agree with that.

6757             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mmhmm, okay.  Mr. Sinclair, Classics, percentage of duplication, especially with Rock 102?  Page 87 of your supplementary brief.

6758             MR. SINCLAIR:  Yes.

6759             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Percentage?  Have you got a percentage?

6760             MR. SINCLAIR:  Yes, Madam Chair.  23 percent.

6761             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Duplication?  Is that the highest in terms of duplication with any of the other incumbents?

6762             MR. SINCLAIR:  That is correct.

6763             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  The demographic?

6764             MR. SINCLAIR:  For our Classic Rock proposed station?

6765             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

6766             MR. SINCLAIR:  Yes.  35 to 44.

6767             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The core?

6768             MR. SINCLAIR:  The target is 38.

6769             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Median is 38?

6770             MR. SINCLAIR:  Correct.

6771             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Male?

6772             MR. SINCLAIR:  Male leaning.

6773             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Male.  Programming different from that as proposed in Regina?

6774             MR. SINCLAIR:  Very little difference.

6775             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  The oldies, percentage of duplication.  What is the highest percentage of duplication with any of the incumbents?

6776             MR. SINCLAIR:  In Saskatoon market with Magic 98 we would be 26 percent.  If I could add a caveat, Madam Chair, that's because that particular station has a special oldies program Sunday morning, so that particular product isn't indicative of their regular programming during the week.

6777             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Without that program, what would ‑‑ did you figure out what the ‑‑

6778             MR. SINCLAIR:  It's around 15 percent.

6779             THE CHAIRPERSON:  15?  One five?

6780             MR. SINCLAIR:  That is correct, one five.

6781             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Programming proposed to be different from Regina, from your proposal in Regina?

6782             MR. SINCLAIR:  Quite similar.

6783             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Demographic?

6784             MR. SINCLAIR:  It's 45 plus, 45‑54.  The bullet is 51.  It's a split pretty close male/female.

6785             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  The big band issue again.  Would you object to a COL on limiting the big band to 10 percent?

6786             MR. SINGER:  Yes, we would commit to that.

6787             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

6788             MR. SINCLAIR:  Madam Chair ‑‑

6789             MR. SINGER:  Madam Chair ‑‑ I'm sorry.  Go ahead, Dean.

6790             MR. SINCLAIR:  I'm sorry, Ken.  Sorry, Madam Chair.  I just had one other point I wanted to add with resect to duplication.  The format of duplication in Saskatoon we find, when we talked about Rock 102 earlier, is Canadian music and not non‑Canadian music.  Okay?

6791             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  I get it.  Mmhmm.  So synergies.  We've talked about programming synergies, any non‑programming synergies?

6792             MR. SINGER:  I think the cross‑training, of course, just increases for us.  The ability to share our best practices between stations.  From a marketing point of view, we certainly have the opportunity to develop sales packages that would work in ‑‑ in shared environments.  And just generally we could be looking at developing music specials and so on that would work in both markets.

6793             So some programming ideas.  Occasionally, with Christmas just around the corner, we buy some prerecorded programming to help us get through the Christmas two or three days, and those would be some synergies in terms of some programming costs as well.

6794             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Your revenue from other stations in both cases is projected to be 5, 6 percent, and that is really quite low compared to the other applicants, and actually compared to the norm.  Can you explain why that ‑‑ why you made that projection?

6795             MR. SINGER:  Yes, Madam Chair.  I think it's because we ‑‑ well, we did some research, talking to advertisers and ‑‑ not only retailers, but also advertising agency people.  And, you know, the general feeling is that we're ‑‑ our two formats are really proposing to reach a target that isn't really in the market, that the incumbent stations are targeting more to that under 35 demo.

6796             We feel that we can certainly create some incremental spending.  We feel we can attract some people perhaps away from print into radio.  And I certainly believe that this type of radio, as we found with our oldies station in Melfort, does attract some first‑time advertisers, because a lot of the business people in Saskatchewan are in that same target demo and they say we love your station, we ought to try that.

6797             So we like that idea, and I think that's been Dave's experience in Saskatoon with our clients there because our signal is discovered there.  Every so many days we seem to find somebody who sends us an e‑mail saying, gee, I wish we could pick you up here all the time, we love the station.  And they're usually in that target demo.

6798             Our new advertisers that we've added to the station, a lot of them are, you know, people that have come back to radio.  So it's based on our own experience, I guess, and also looking at the feedback that Insightrix was able to provide us in the market.

6799             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you do already have a sales office in Saskatoon, so I suppose that gives you a plus.

6800             You have high projections for the Classic Rock, and indeed you're going to have ‑‑ you're projecting to have a profit from year one.  Is that possible as a stand alone, do you think?

6801             MR. SINGER:  We based those projections on a formula, and certainly I think ‑‑ I think it is achievable, given our projection of what the total dollars available in the market are.  We again, and I'll have Kevin speak to this in just a minute, but we're very encouraged by the research.  And we've also looked at the same scenario I just outlined.  We really are targeting a different demo than the current radio stations are serving.

6802             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

6803             MR. GEMMELL:  Madam Chair, perhaps I can interject as well.  Another reason we feel we can attain fairly high revenues is Mr. Marcoux's experience in the market with himself and his two other salespeople.  They're going to be the sales force that transfers over likely and sells these radio stations, so we've got a great working relationship with a large number of clients in the market, and they like the way that they do business with our stations now, with the CJVR group, and we feel we can expand upon that.

6804             MR. SINGER:  I guess that's one of the real important differences between us and the other applicants, is we ‑‑ our wheels are already turning there.  And I guess that would account for our optimism for that first year.

6805             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mmhmm.

6806             MR. FABRO:  In fact, Madam Chair, we get quite a bit of revenue ‑‑ our total revenue out of Saskatoon right now, and if you wish we can indicate ‑‑ we can break that down for you confidentiality so you can see where it's at.

6807             THE CHAIRPERSON:  My concern was would you been cannibalizing yourself if you had an oldies, because it's your oldies ‑‑ you have an oldies in Melfort, and if you had an oldies in Saskatoon?

6808             MR. SINGER:  Two different signals, two different markets.  Our AM ‑‑

6809             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you're getting cash already from Saskatoon, I mean, are you ‑‑

6810             MR. SINGER:  But two different markets.  Our clients in Saskatoon want to reach that audience that's in rural Saskatchewan that would not hear our Saskatoon FM.  That will be ‑‑ if we're given a licence in Saskatoon, that will be our next problem when our AM listeners in the country want to know why we're not playing it on FM.

6811             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  Okay.  Now, I think, Mr. Gemmell, it would be you who would have been saying at page 50 of your supplementary brief that advertising expenditure is about 4 percent of retail sales.  Where did you come up with that?

6812             MR. GEMMELL:  That is a widely accepted number based on total retail sales.  It's the number I've used in my ten years of selling radio.  4 percent of retail sales is what is spent on total advertising in the market.

6813             MR. SINGER:  And those ‑‑ the Radio Marketing Bureau suggests that's a good figure to use as well.

6814             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

6815             MR. GEMMELL:  Yes.

6816             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, you know that the incumbents claim that the market is fragile and that there are low pBITS.  In us assessing market capacity, what other issues should we consider aside from pBITS?

6817             MR. SINGER:  Again, Ken?

6818             MR. SINGER:  Madam Chair, I think you have to assess the musical format, the diversity that we're proposing first and foremost.  If it wasn't a solid plan we're not going to be successful.  If we're coming into the market offering a broad‑based format that basically tries to duplicate the broad‑based formats that are in the market today, I agree there isn't room, but if we target our upper end demographic with two distinctly different radio stations that focus on two distinctly different audiences.  That's the key.

6819             The other thing is we're proposing to bring a different style of radio to the marketplace.  We're ‑‑ you know, we're not a part of the consolidation in our province where we are definitely ‑‑ we're smaller market local broadcasters.  We make our living on local, and we are committed to provide a great deal of local programming in addition to our two diversified formats.  And subsequently, expect to target a different type of advertiser than is being targeted in the market.

6820             MR. GEMMELL:  As well, Madam Chair, I would like to talk ‑‑

6821             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The question was what other issues should we be considering when we are considering the capacity of the market?  And I heard you say, Mr. Singer, diversity of format.  But you can change your format.  And so I'm not licensing you as a ‑‑ I mean, I, the Commission, I didn't bring my stamp today.  The Commission doesn't license a format, it licenses a company.

6822             MR. SINGER:  Yes.

6823             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So when I'm looking at ‑‑ and I'm talking about market capacity, the ability to have ‑‑ for us to say there's room for another one, two or ten stations.  Don't have a heart attack, Mr. Rawlinson.

6824             MR. SINGER:  I think we touched on this a bit in our Regina application, but it's our point of view that if you ‑‑ we believe our business plan is solid, we believe that our projections are conservative, and we believe in our profitability.  We are ‑‑ we do not have an answer as to how the incumbent six radio stations can attract the kind of revenues we're projecting and be as profitable as we've heard in the last two days.  We think that that should be taken into account, and we ‑‑ you know, you've got our projections and how we plan to do it, and we think we can offer quality programming with those expenditures we've indicated.  And I ‑‑ I'm well aware of the quality of the programming of the incumbents because I spend a lot of time in Saskatoon and I listen to the radio stations and I commend them on a good job that they're doing.

6825             You know, I've been around radio a little bit myself.  This is my 40th year in the business, and I do understand the costs associated with running a radio station.

6826             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Singer, if I take your argument, I would license ‑‑ or we would license as many people who said they thought they could make a go of it.

6827             But on the other hand, you're here saying to us, listen, we're having real troubles with our other stations.  You have to give us a new station to subsidize our present stations.  We didn't make your decision to stay in radio.

6828             MR. SINGER:  Correct.

6829             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And so ‑‑ but you're asking us to license you.  What if you have trouble in Regina and Saskatoon?  Are you going to say you want to go into Toronto?  I mean, you see ‑‑ I mean, so the question is how do we assess market capacity?  I know you believe in your numbers, but what should we consider aside from pBITS?  Which we know what they are.

6830             MR. SINGER:  Yes.

6831             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And I can tell you, it looks fragile.  So aside from pBITS, what other issue should we consider to say there's room in this market for another station?

6832             MR. SINGER:  Well, population of the market.  I think we have to look at, you know, what is the ratio of available formats to ‑‑ available radio stations to the population.  Certainly, you know, you've got to look at the revenue projections for the market, the growth, the future growth of the market.

6833             And I can certainly say that, you know, yes, Saskatchewan is stagnant from a population point of view, but we're seeing indicators for Saskatoon and Regina that say these cities are moving forward.  So I think the growth, the stories of growth are important.  And for sure, you know, we ‑‑ we wouldn't be here today if we didn't have a belief that the market is going to get stronger.

6834             MS HARPER:  If I could just interject for a minute, Madam Chair.

6835             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You can't have three mic's on at the same time.  Go ahead.

6836             MR. SINGER:  We will let Corrin speak first here.

6837             MS HARPER:  As part of the research that we had conducted for CJVR, we had done an extensive secondary research review on the market, and we looked at the market, and I know you've been sort of ‑‑ got a myriad of numbers thrown at you, sort of the positive and negative depending on the presentation, but, you know, I think I speak from two levels, from the research perspective as well as our own firm.  My own firm is located in Saskatoon, so we're part of the Saskatoon business community.  So looking at these statistics, I can relate to them to some degree.

6838             But as we had mentioned, the GDP, real GDP growth in Saskatoon, you know, has been revised by the Conference Board of Canada.  In September basically they had projected a growth of less than 3 percent, it's going to be over 3 percent.  The last ten years Saskatoon has seen a growth above average, above the Canadian average, so I think looking as part of the real GDP growth, the population growth, the housing starts, like all the economic indicators are very positive.

6839             As far as what's being experienced in the Saskatoon market I think my own firm in some respects is a poster child for that.  We have seen increased growth.  There's more money, more projects, more clients that we're dealing with.  In Alberta, the proximity to the Alberta market, we are seeing that component as well.

6840             So I would say the overall market is by far able to probably, I would say, have the capacity to absorb another station.

6841             The other ‑‑ the other component to our research though which I thought was quite interesting, was we interviewed retailers in ‑‑ that advertise in Saskatoon, advertising agencies as well as retailers, and we asked for their impression about another radio station in the market.  And what came up was sort of two themes that came out of that research, and one theme was the ability to target that group was important.  Right now the feeling is we advertise on the radio stations and sort of ‑‑ we're targeting a market, but it's being on a station that's not targeting the right group of people that we're after.  So looking after that 35 and over age group was significantly important to a lot of the ‑‑ a lot of the respondents.

6842             But the other thing that came out is being able to have some competition in the work place ‑‑ or in the marketplace, was viewed as being very positive as well.  And the relationships with the broadcasters in ‑‑ in our research from the advertising agencies was possibly going to improve if there was other players within the market.

6843             So I hope that answers ‑‑

6844             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Please remember the question.  What issues should we consider in assessing the capacity of the market?  It is not the facts, it's what are the issues.  What other issues should we consider other than pBITS?  Should we consider retail sales?  Should we consider ‑‑ that's the question, and I want to keep you there.  I don't want to ‑‑

6845             MR. GEMMELL:  I'd certainly like to offer an answer ‑‑

6846             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ move to how busy your firm is and that sort of thing.

6847             MR. GEMMELL:  ‑‑ on that.  Retail sales, yes.  Gross revenue in the market, we talked about this in regards to Regina as well.  We made assumptions based on 4 percent of the advertising market and then 16 percent of the revenue being radio, giving us about $15 million in Regina and slightly more in Saskatoon.

6848             The reality of it is, referring to the report relevant to these proceedings, we're told that there's $36 million between Saskatoon and Regina using the population breakdown.  There's $19,628,481 for Saskatoon radio in the 2005 fiscal year, September to August.  There's 12 stations billing that, that's $3,275,000 per station, or about 9.9 million per three stations.  I scratch my head as to how profit can't be made in the Saskatoon market again.

6849             And I'll refer you to Fort McMurray where the OK Radio Group showed a pBIT of almost 20 percent on $4 million in revenue.  So I think gross revenue is very important.  Where you take it from there is something only you have knowledge to.

6850             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

6851             Mr. Singer, you did say you've only been in a smaller market.  If we licensed you in Saskatoon it would be a totally different market.  You have right now, if I'm correct, you have the competition of a low power in Nipawin, and this time you're going to be swimming with the sharks.

6852             MR. SINGER:  We have ‑‑

6853             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Wait.

6854             MR. SINGER:  We have ‑‑

6855             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Wait.  And you are going to be swimming with six other sharks, three each holding hands.  And this ‑‑ and believe me, it appears to me they don't want another player in the market.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6856             MR. SINGER:  We kind of picked up on that.

6857             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, I mean, it's going to be a rough hoe.  And I guess my question is, how are you going to do it?

6858             MR. SINGER:  Well, it's interesting that you raised that point, because here we are in Regina, and I make quite frequent trips to Regina, and I come into this market and I see the two radio groups buying billboards and all kinds of promotion, I see it everywhere, and I know what that costs.  I go into Saskatoon I don't see any of that.  It seems to be interesting that, you know, the new guy is going to have to promote real hard, I know that, and our projection has taken that into consideration.

6859             I don't have any doubt that we can't put as quality a product on the table.  We have ‑‑ we might be small market, but we didn't just show up.  Gene's family is totally behind this venture and all of our applications, and we wouldn't be here if we didn't have the business acumen and the financial resources to weather the storm.  And if our projections are high and our profitability comes later, you know, we will ‑‑ we can deal with that.  We're not dependent on, you know, the revenues of ‑‑ of our two stations in Melfort.  I can let Gene speak to that situation as well.

6860             MR. FABRO:  Yes, Madam Chair.  I think, firstly, have you ever listened to our stations as all?

6861             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

6862             MR. FABRO:  Okay.  They don't ‑‑ they're not small market stations in the true sense of the word.  We have quality people there.  I mentioned in Regina the top ten people ‑‑

6863             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I was just quoting Mr. Singer.  He said smaller market, and I used the same word he was saying.

6864             MR. FABRO:  It's just that ‑‑

6865             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I didn't infer the sound or anything.

6866             MR. FABRO:  No, what I ‑‑ my point was going to be is that we're ‑‑ we have a ‑‑ we have a long history and we have a lot of experience there.  Like, I was going to say, we have ‑‑ I think our top ten ‑‑ the longest people at the station, I think they have an average of 18 years with the station and 22 years in the business.

6867             If you listen to either of our stations you will find that they are top rung.  They could compete in any market in Canada.  And we don't feel at all fearful of what the competition is in Saskatoon, or Regina for that matter.  Even though, like Mr. Singer said, they're quality ‑‑ they're quality competition, but we can come up and meet them head to head and deliver our goods.

6868             Now, with regards to the financial capacity of if something were to go awry.  If, in fact, everything went to hell in a hand basket in terms of the projections for Saskatoon and Regina, and the province for that matter, we can ‑‑ we're businessmen, we know to protect ourselves against blows from the changes in economy.  We've been in business ‑‑ my father started business ‑‑ he's 87 years old and he's been in business most of his working life for himself.  He understands, and I understand, the way to minimize your risk is have potential capital at the call if you need it.  So we're well prepared for this ‑‑ this assault on these markets, and trust me, we know what we're doing.

6869             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Fabro, you offered to break out your Melfort revenues between Saskatoon and Melfort.  Could you provide that to us in confidence?

6870             MR. FABRO:  Absolutely we will do that either later today or first thing in the morning.

6871             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

‑‑‑ Undertaking / Engagement

6872             MR. SINGER:  Madam Chair, could I just add one more thing?

6873             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, but it better be on topic and be brief, please.

6874             MR. SINGER:  I'll be short.  It is on the topic and you talked about ‑‑ back to your question, small fish swimming with big fish.  Both of the operators in Saskatoon at one time were small fish.  And I look at them and I respect, you know, how they've built their companies.  We want the same opportunity.  And I think it's as important that the CRTC considers that if only the big fish are allowed to have new licences, eventually our broadcasting industry is going to be controlled by a small, small handful of operators.

6875             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  Now, one other thing.  What more are you offering in Saskatoon in the way of Aboriginal reflection, acceptance, cultural awareness, recognizing ‑‑ and you know as well as I do, that there is a far bigger profile in Saskatoon than there is in Regina.

6876             MR. SINGER:  Well, I think from the point of view of our ‑‑ our CTD benefits are larger in Saskatoon than they are in Regina right off the bat.

6877             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Number two?

6878             MR. SINGER:  Number two is we will, of course, be doing internships in conjunction with these things as well to give these people an opportunity to work at our radio stations.

6879             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Aren't you doing that down in Regina?

6880             MR. SINGER:  We will do that ‑‑ yes, we would do that at all stations, for sure.

6881             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So the question is what more are you proposing in Saskatoon than in Regina, given the very different climate?

6882             MR. SINGER:  I think just having more resources behind our ‑‑ you know, more financial resources behind our CTD benefits is probably the most apparent.  Our programming ‑‑ our programs are similar, but when you look at the ‑‑ you know, the Aboriginal populations for those two communities, in Saskatoon it's 9 percent, according to the 2001 census, and in Regina it's 8.3 percent, so ‑‑

6883             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You missed ‑‑ I guess you missed the question I was asking this morning then.  The fact that ‑‑ and surely you would know, living that close to Saskatoon, there is a far greater profile of the Aboriginal community in Saskatoon, with FSIN there, with the ‑‑ with Waneskawin there, with the urban reserve, isn't there?

6884             MR. SINGER:  Well, I guess those are good points, and I ‑‑

6885             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And secondly, there's far more friction in Saskatoon between the police and the First Nations Aboriginal community, isn't there?

6886             MR. SINGER:  You know, I know Saskatoon, I don't know Regina's situation as well because I don't ‑‑ I don't spend as much ‑‑

6887             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Did you hear of anything like a Darrell Night, where the police left something out in the middle of the night in a field?  Have you ever heard of that happening in Regina?

6888             MR. SINGER:  No, I have not.

6889             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, you clearly weren't listening to what was being said this morning?

6890             MR. SINGER:  No, I wasn't.

6891             THE CHAIRPERSON:  My assertion is that Regina is far different from Saskatoon, and I was asking what more people were doing in Saskatoon as a consequence of that?  And your answer is more money to CTD?

6892             MR. SINGER:  Well, what we have committed is ‑‑ that's what I have today for you.

6893             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's it?

6894             MR. SINGER:  Yes.

6895             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

6896             You now have your two minutes to shine or whatever.

6897             MR. FABRO:  Well, thank you very much, Madam Chair and the Commissioners.  When you retire from the Commission I think we will get you on our Board of Directors.  You ask some very good and pointed questions, something we should always be asking ourselves, and hopefully we had the answers for you.

6898             Madam Chair and Commissioners, CJVR's brand of radio is great music, locally relevant, community driven.  We want to bring our brand of radio to the streets of Saskatoon and Regina.

6899             The radio markets of Saskatoon and Regina are similar in many respects.  They are similar in size, they have two operators in both markets with two ‑‑ three licences each.  The music voids are the same, the demographics to be served are the same.  There is room in the market for two more stations in each market.

6900             In order for us to compete on a more equitable basis with the existing operators, who as I have mentioned have three licences each, we have asked you to grant us not one, but two licences in both markets.

6901             Our extensive market research has shown that there are identical holes in each market.  We have determined through this research that the format would be classic rock and oldies.

6902             We filed with the commission rock solid business plans prepared by people who know radio broadcasting, people who lived it, loved it, listened to it, and worked in it for either all of their lives or most of their lives.  All of our collective wisdom is wrapped up in these plans, there is absolutely nothing left to chance.

6903             We've come to the table with substantial dollar commitments and innovative refreshing ideas for our Canadian Talent Development initiatives.  Three out of four competitor applicants for the mainstream commercial radio licences in Saskatoon had 168 broadcast licences between them, and all applicants have licences in major markets.  For Regina the same total for the two competitive applicants is 138 licences.  We have three licences.  Madam Chair, by comparison it might look like David and Goliath, but trust me, this David can and will perform in these markets, and it will bring much needed owner diversity and independent voice to the Canadian Broadcast System.

6904             The status quo for CJVR is unacceptable.  We absolutely have to grow our business to defend against Saskatchewan rural to urban population shifts, and the radio licensee that has recently entered our market.

6905             Saskatoon and Regina are natural fits with our Melfort operation.  We have sales staff in Saskatoon and have been broadcasting the U of S Huskies for years.  Regina, Saskatoon and Melfort will pride us with a provincial coverage in the northeast, central and the southeast.

6906             Our Saskatoon and Regina applications may be the one and last chance for us obtaining broadcasting licence in the province.

6907             Madam Chair, finally, we have a very long and proud history.  We've been in your kitchen on those cold, dark mornings when the blizzard is outside, it was so important to listen in to see if there is a school bus running.  We reported on your son's hat trick, your daughter's graduation and the Mayor's position on saving the water tower.  We've been doing this for 40 years for 150,000 listeners in over 100 communities.  All we're asking for is the chance for you to let us do this for the rest of our fellow Saskatchewanites.

6908             For all these reasons, Madam Chair, we believe that the Commission should award us the two broadcast licences in each of Saskatchewan and Regina.

6909             Thank you.  Merci beaucoup.

6910             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Fabro, panel.

6911             Madam secretary?

6912             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

6913             I would now call on the next appearing applicant, Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc., if they could come forward to make their presentation.

‑‑‑ Pause

6914             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

6915             We will now proceed with the next application, which is item 23 on the agenda.  An application by Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc., AVR, for a licence to operate an English and Aboriginal language native type B FM radio programming undertaking in Saskatoon.

6916             The new station would operate on frequency 102.9 MHz, channel 275C, with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts, non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 178.9 metres.

6917             Appearing for the Applicant is Mr. Jamie Hill, who will introduce his colleagues.  And you will have 20 minutes for your presentation.

6918             Mr. Hill ...?

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

6919             MR. HILL:  Madam Chair, members of the Commission, commission staff, colleagues and broadcasters, and ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon.

6920             For the record, my name is Jamie Hill, and I'm the President of Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc.  We come before you with a sense of national pride and purpose in making Saskatoon a key link in our vision of building a national communications highway for, of and by Aboriginal Canadian people.

6921             I would again like to introduce the members of our panel.  To make my life easier, we have maintained the same seating plan as during our appearance here today ‑‑ yesterday.  On your far right is Lewis Cardinal, the Vice‑President of AVR.  Beside Lewis is Bob Wood, AVR's management consultant.  On my right is Roy Hennessy, AVR's General Manager.  Beside Roy is Patrice Mousseau, AVR's Program Director and on‑air host.  And on your far left is Grant Buchanan of McCarthy Tetrault LLP, our legal counsel.

6922             We wish to repeat our acknowledgement of the Saulteaux, Cree and Assiniboine people, on whose traditional territories we are gathered today, as well as the Metis people and people of Regina, for the kindness we have been afforded this week.

6923             I would now like to begin our formal presentation.  The Commission will appreciate that many aspects of this application are similar or the same as those contained in AVR's Regina application.  To the extent that the Commission covered some of that ground already in questioning relating to our Regina application, we have not repeated it again in this presentation, which will accordingly be much shorter.

6924             We are gathered today here in Saskatoon [sic] to pursue the continuation of the building of the AVR national network.  As you know, we are currently on the air in major markets like Toronto, Calgary, Montreal and Ottawa.  We are ready to throw the switch in Vancouver and are hoping to be on the air soon in Edmonton and Kitchener, and yesterday you heard our application for Regina.

6925             For AVR, Saskatoon is a very important link for our national network.  Without Saskatoon there is a gap in our ability to fulfil our mission.  Saskatoon will be a vital part of our national call‑in show, as well as providing music to our Aboriginal music ‑‑ from our Aboriginal library, news to listeners in other parts of Canada, and a very real and necessary touchstone for the young people who are steadily leaving their communities for opportunities in big Saskatchewan cities.

6926             Saskatoon had an estimated Aboriginal population of 19,020 in 2001, and now the city is hovering around the 220,000 mark, of which about 10 percent is comprised of Aboriginal people.  The current national trend of Aboriginal migration to urban areas, and a fast rising birth rate dictates an expected population surge in Saskatoon now and in the future with some demographers predicting up to 50 percent First Nation population in Saskatchewan within a few generations.

6927             MR. CARDINAL:  There are numerous radio stations on air in Saskatoon, and virtually no Aboriginal presence on the vast majority of them.  Our new AVR Saskatoon station will dramatically increase the diversity of radio programming in the market by immediately introducing a radio service dedicated to reflecting the needs and interests of Saskatoon's First Nations, Inuit and Metis.  This new service will be a tremendous benefit to those community members and a real alternative.  As was the case with Regina, it is difficult for me to contemplate a national Aboriginal service like AVR without Saskatoon in it.

6928             As mentioned in our appearance before you yesterday, AVR is concerned about the possibility of many Aboriginal languages becoming extinct.  There are between 53 and 70 known Aboriginal languages but many are only used by elders and will die with them.  In addition to the promotion of Aboriginal Canadian languages in the English language portion of the schedule, AVR will, as it does in every other market, ensure that no less than 2 percent of all programming during the broadcast week be spoken word programming in an Aboriginal Canadian language, and that no less than 2 percent of all vocal musical selections played during each broadcast week be in an Aboriginal Canadian language.

6929             The two Aboriginal language conditions of licence mentioned above, together with the requirement that a minimum of 25 percent of all programming be spoken word programming, including news, and a minimum of 35 percent of all musical selections from Category 2 be Canadian selections played in their entirety, have formed the backbone of the regulatory underpinning of AVR's many services.  AVR meets or exceeds all of these thresholds and will continue to do so.

6930             During our appearance regarding our Regina application yesterday, AVR also agreed to a condition of licence precluding the solicitation of local advertising and to a condition of licence requiring AVR to commence the airing of its local programming within two years of launch.  AVR would agree to the same two conditions of licence in Saskatoon, but would like to make sure that we understand clearly the condition that we are agreeing to.

6931             Our expectation would be that the condition would relate to the minimum number of hours, 32 in each case, of local programming in each case, rather than the specific initiatives outlined.  And we would expect that it would be tied to the date of the launch, and not some other date, such as the date of this hearing or the date of your decision.

6932             Chair, and members of the Commission, for a national Aboriginal service to be effective it must be able to both send and receive programming of relevance from a variety of communities in Canada and not just from Toronto.  We believe strongly in local Aboriginal content.  Moreover, it is vital that the Aboriginal community be able to access the service.

6933             As Aboriginal people constitute an impoverished subset of Canadian society, free over‑the‑air local radio will remain their primary source for many years to come.

6934             Finally, it is worth recalling that AVR features virtually 100 percent Aboriginal programming during the broadcast week.  We do not have a cross subsidy model with non‑Aboriginal programming creating the revenue flows to pay for the Aboriginal programming.  We are a truly Aboriginal service each and every broadcast day.

6935             I would now like to ask Patrice to speak more about the programming plans for AVR Saskatoon.

6936             MS MOUSSEAU:  The AVR radio service in Saskatoon will offer a varied programming menu that will reflect the Aboriginal Canadian experience.  Newscast, public affairs programs and open‑line talk shows will all address the needs, interests and concerns of First Nations, Inuit, Metis Canadians, particularly those who live in large urban centres like Saskatoon, where the Aboriginal population is growing at a much greater rate than the population at large.

6937             The network programming schedule will include full Aboriginal news reports, national phone‑in programs, a women's round table discussion, focus programs on language, youth, elders, health, et cetera, as well as specialty music programs featuring artists profiles, traditional music, blues, jazz, country et cetera.

6938             The new AVR service in Saskatoon will feature more than 32 hours a week of local programming.  The showcase will be the Saskatoon morning show, which will air Monday to Sunday 6 a.m.  to 10 a.m.  As with its counterpart morning show in Regina, this locally‑produced program will feature a variety of interviews, surveillance reports, Aboriginal music, local banter, amongst other things.

6939             AVR will broadcast a number of newscasts which will aggregate more than three and a half hours per week.  News story selection will focus on events which impact Canada's urban Aboriginal communities, and that have been overlooked and under reported by other news sources.  Additional priority will be given to providing a venue for the expression of non‑mainstream viewpoints on current matters of the day.

6940             AVR also proposes to create three‑minute features to be called Community Calendar to provide a schedule of performances and other events taking place in Saskatoon and surrounding areas.  In addition, the Saskatoon station will be responsible for creating local programming for inclusion in the network programming dealing with artist profiles, interviews, talent development, concert reviews, et cetera.

6941             As noted earlier, AVR also proposes the same condition of licence requiring 25 percent of the broadcast week to be comprised of spoken word programs, as is found elsewhere on AVR services throughout Canada.  In addition to the local programming already discussed, AVR will feature a number of national spoken word programs that will become available to Saskatoon listeners.

6942             While spoken word will be a significant component of the AVR Saskatoon schedule, the station will also feature a mix of primarily Canadian and worldwide Aboriginal artists in a broad range of genres.  The program hosts will provide informed commentary on the artist presented, along with a variety of educational and entertaining Aboriginal Canadian perspectives on ‑‑ Aboriginal Canadian perspectives on issues of the day.

6943             The widespread national availability of the AVR radio service has already dramatically increased exposure to the work of Aboriginal Canadian artists, encouraging an increased awareness in Aboriginal culture.  AVR will play a leading national role in the development and radio exposure of Native musical and spoken word talent.

6944             AVR has already begun the development of a national archive of Aboriginal Canadian artists.  Currently there are over 7,500 individual selections performed by 658 artists and groups.  The majority of the programming on AVR is drawn from this growing and important resource.

6945             As we discussed yesterday, while AVR's conditions of licence across Canada require it to broadcast at least 35 percent of musical selections by Canadian artists, AVR plays somewhere between 45 percent and 60 percent Canadian selections, all by Aboriginal artists.  AVR's over‑deliver will be no different in Saskatoon.

6946             As we noted, AVR has agreed to assist the Commission by confirming the Canadian content status of those Aboriginal Canadian artists who are not currently in the Commission's database.

6947             AVR will aggressively promote the involvement of Aboriginal Canadian artists through regular airplay, interview appearances, guest hosting and live studio performances.  AVR will encourage live music by offering extensive free promotion of the upcoming performances of Aboriginal artists.

6948             MR. HILL:  In closing today I want to thank the Chair and members and staff of the Commission and the other licence applicants who are our colleagues in the broadcast industry.  We want to thank the Indigenous people of this area for permitting us to gather on their traditional territory for these hearings, and we thank the Creator for our blessings.

6949             Broadcasting Act Section 3(1)(d)(iii) states that the Canadian Broadcasting System should reflect "the special place of Aboriginal people within Canadian society."  Section 3(1)(o) of the Act states that the programming ‑‑ states that programming that reflects the Aboriginal cultures of Canada should be provided within the Canadian broadcasting system as resources become available for the purpose.

6950             The Board of Directors of AVR gratefully acknowledge the support of Phil Fontaine, the National Chief of the Assembly of First Nations; George Erasmus, co‑chair of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal People; Perry Bellegarde, former Grand Chief of the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations and Regional Chief of Saskatchewan; Beverly Jacobs, President of the Native Women's Association of Canada; Vera Pawis‑Tabobondung, President of the National Association of Friendship Centres, and many other supporters of the National Aboriginal Radio Service.

6951             We are also delighted to have received strong support from such stars of the Aboriginal Canadian music scene as John Arcand, Donny Parenteau, Eekwol and Andrea Menard.  They understand the value of a national Aboriginal radio service, both to their own development as musicians, but also to the Aboriginal communities from which they come.

6952             Thank you very much, and we would be pleased to respond to your questions.

6953             All my relations.

6954             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑chair Arpin?

6955             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

6956             Our discussion today will be very specific towards Saskatoon.  And I will start with some basic questions because ‑‑ based on the discussions we had yesterday.

6957             This morning you filed the program grid of the ‑‑ program descriptors of the program that we cannot find on your web site.  I suspect this applies also for Saskatoon?  That this ‑‑ those descriptors, for the portions ‑‑ the network portion of the programming, that ‑‑

6958             MS MOUSSEAU:  It will, yes.

6959             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  It will, okay.  You also raise on your page 4 some discussion regarding local programming and your understanding of the condition of licence that has been discussed.  Could you elaborate on what your understanding of the discussions we had yesterday?

6960             MR. BUCHANAN:  The understanding Vice‑chair Arpin, yesterday, was ‑‑ as I heard it anyway, was at end of year two.  And we just ‑‑ we had an end, but we didn't know ‑‑

6961             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  You want to qualify ‑‑

6962             MR. BUCHANAN:  We didn't know what day one was from which it would be measured.

6963             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Exactly.  So you want to clarify that the starting is the date you go on air?  That's a big ‑‑ not the date of this hearing, not the date of the decision only, but the date you go on air?

6964             MR. BUCHANAN:  That's right.

6965             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  In regard to Saskatoon, how long do you think you're going to need to be able to go on air after a licence has been granted?  It has to do with financial, and it has to do probably with NAV/COM tests and things of that nature, but what ‑‑ generally speaking, the Commission gives 24 months, do you expect that you would be able to launch within that 24‑month period?

6966             MR. BUCHANAN:  I would let our colleagues down at the other end of the table answer, but part of the answer depends on what frequency we would end up with should you license us.  We have had ‑‑

6967             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And other applicant ‑‑

6968             MR. BUCHANAN:  Yes.  We have, as you know, had a distinct lack of success when we've come away without the frequency that was asked for and had to spend time chasing a frequency on which to launch, so I guess the time would be from whenever we get a frequency, or if we get the frequency we are asking for, then the question would be over to my colleagues.

6969             MR. WOOD:  We would expect to be on the air within two years, Commissioner.  And we've actually been in negotiations with Rawlco Broadcasting, who have been kind enough to allow us access to their transmission sites so that we can be assured of a site when and if we receive a licence from you.

6970             MR. HILL:  The NAV/COM test is an industry Canada procedure which can easily be projected once we have ‑‑ once all the other details have been taken care of, probably a three to six‑week, two‑month period, once everything else is in place.

6971             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Okay, fine.  Regarding financing, you were ‑‑ you had agreed yesterday to file with the Commission the ‑‑ your financial ‑‑ your financial business plan and also the documentation that supports that financial ‑‑ those financials.  Has it been done?

6972             MR. BUCHANAN:  I have, a few moments ago, only presented documentation to the hearing ‑‑ the hearing secretary.  Again, I'm a little unclear as to exactly what it was you were looking for, but we have supplied financial documentation to the hearing secretary, yes.

6973             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  So for the record, you have provided at least the information, and staff will look into it and let you know if it is what we were waiting for?

6974             MR. BUCHANAN:  Yes.

6975             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Okay, and we will look at it.

6976             Mr. Cardinal, you said that on the beginning of your oral presentation on page 3, that there are numerous radio stations on air in Saskatoon and virtually no Aboriginal presence on the vast majority of them.  And part of the discussion that we have had today, and Madam Chair raised it on a few occasion, there are surely some very specific Aboriginal issues in Saskatoon, more in Saskatoon than in Regina, and probably more also in Saskatoon than any of the other markets that you've been licensed for.

6977             First, have you done a monitoring of the stations?  Has someone in your group done a monitoring of the Saskatoon stations to support that statement first?

6978             MS MOUSSEAU:  Yes, we have.

6979             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And so you're comfortable with that statement, that it reflects the reality?

6980             MS MOUSSEAU:  Yes.

6981             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  The ‑‑ my next question is based on what has been already discussed, regarding the issues of ‑‑ that are very specific to Saskatoon, what kind of programming are you planning ‑‑ are you planning something very specific for Saskatoon regarding Aboriginal programming, or is ‑‑ because you have a template for your local period ‑‑ local time that you're devoting, but obviously content will vary from one market to the other.  I hope so.

6982             Have you ‑‑ what do you have in mind regarding the specific issues of Saskatoon?

6983             MS MOUSSEAU:  Well, it's interesting.  Madam Chair, actually you mentioned earlier, you were talking about the moonlight tours, and ‑‑ excuse me.  It make me think, well, what if AVR had been here ten years ago?  Because Neil Stonechild, who is probably the most famous case, he wasn't the first.  This has been going on for a very long time.  Perhaps if there had been an Aboriginal media available at that time and somebody reporting on it, maybe there might have been more attention paid and the tragedy wouldn't have occurred.  So that is definitely something I see, and I think we all see, as being the job of AVR in Saskatoon and in Regina.

6984             MR. CARDINAL:  And while the templates may be similar from an overall framework, the content is going to be shaped by the environments of each of those cities.  Saskatoon no different.  And as I said yesterday, each city has a unique set of relationships within their own environment, and therefore will shape how the content will be produced and what issues will be brought forward.

6985             MR. HENNESSY:  The difference is in the demographics, with Saskatoon being a younger city and with the growth rate of the cities.  Obviously the topics that are involved in the discussions, the contributions made to talk shows, the activities in the community that you cover will change to reflect that.

6986             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  If we get now to the ‑‑ your programming, your programming you just referred ‑‑ well, to the morning show, you will have the news, the newscasts.  Could you elaborate more on what it is going to be looking like in Saskatoon?  Say if the room was filled of Saskatooners who wanted to know more about what you are going to be providing them, what would you say?

6987             MS MOUSSEAU:  Well, if I was fortunate enough to have a room full of Saskatooners, I think the very first thing I would do is ask them what they want to hear.  The Saskatoon morning show will be very similar in an outline as the Regina show, but obviously it is a different market and the people that we hire to do those jobs are going to know the market far better than I would because they would have been living there.  So their input at that point would be enormous as well.  So news, weather, sports events, artists, everything that the community needs to hear from AVR.

6988             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Will you be sharing programming between Regina and Saskatoon?

6989             MS MOUSSEAU:  I would think that it definitely would be relevant to both markets to share and cooperate between each other, yeah, absolutely.

6990             MR. HILL:  Commissioner, so far as the programming will be Saskatchewan based, I think there are similarities and I think there will be opportunities for sharing content, as well as resources, in the development of the local programming.

6991             MR. HENNESSY:  We're not also going to be limited to just the two urban areas that we're talking about.  We want to provide this service to reach out and receive input from the other communities in Saskatchewan.  As we mentioned yesterday, the concept of providing, at no charge, programming content to stations that could use it, the stations that don't have staffing of their own on reserves and settlements around northern Canada and the prairie areas, where there are a large number of these low power FMs, would be able to obtain our programming to fill out their schedule at no charge.

6992             But also reporting on things that are going on.  We had a conversation, Mr. Wood and I, just a couple of hours ago, with a couple of members of the FSIN.  There's a hockey tournament coming into Prince Albert next spring, a national Aboriginal hockey tournament.  18 teams are going to be competing, and we had the discussion about the opportunity that ‑‑ not just to present it to Regina and Saskatoon, but also to present it across the country.  And those are the sorts of things that we will look for in all the communities that we can bring to the local community and then take the best of that and present it to the national network as well.

6993             MR. CARDINAL:  In respect to sharing resources and sharing news ideas, Aboriginal people in the urban centres and just across Canada in general, like to know what's happening in the rest of the world as well.

6994             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Oh, sure.

6995             MR. CARDINAL:  They will ‑‑ so we will have national news, international news, and then we will go to more specific Aboriginal stories in relation to their environment.  So, you know, we see that we don't need to recreate the wheel for everything, but we know there's particular and unique things within their communities that they would like to have some focus on as well.  So that framework would apply both to Saskatchewan and Regina.

6996             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I'm currently looking at your coverage map for Saskatoon, and obviously you're ‑‑ if you're granted the licence for the frequency you've applied for, you will end up with a ‑‑ a 100 kilowatt service which will cover surely somewhere around at least 60 kilometres around Saskatoon.  Are there significant Aboriginal population in those more ‑‑ in those areas that are ‑‑ like, I'm seeing places like Laird, Carlton, Cudworth, Prudhomme, Bruno, Young, Leroy.  I'm going all over the map.  To your knowledge, what is the ‑‑ are they populated by Aboriginals or Metis?

6997             MS MOUSSEAU:  I don't believe we have those exact numbers.

6998             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I'm not looking for numbers.  I want to make sure that your plan is relevant to Saskatoon.

6999             MS MOUSSEAU:  Yes, we believe it is, and we believe the Aboriginal population outside of the urban centre, the city centre itself, will be served by AVR.

7000             MR. WOOD:  I think yesterday, Commission, Mr. Cardinal mentioned that there's a relationship between urban Aboriginal people and rural Aboriginal people in that they travel back and forth to their home communities and then back into the city to work.  So there's that relationship.

7001             And if you also review the data in the Aboriginal Peoples Survey II, it does show that there is a distribution of Aboriginal people right across Saskatchewan, increasing as you go further north.  So we think that this signal is indeed in keeping with the geographic location of Aboriginal people in the province.

7002             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  How many staff will you have in the ‑‑ in Saskatoon?

7003             MR. HENNESSY:  The ‑‑

7004             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  On starting ‑‑ from starting date to the first day after the second year of operation?

7005             MR. HENNESSY:  The first day after the second year?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7006             MR. HENNESSY:  To begin with, the newsperson in Saskatoon will be the first to come on board, and will supply the ‑‑ provide the local newscast and input into the national network.  And then the ‑‑ there will be a contract technical support person to make sure we stay on the air in fact.  And then the morning show will be developed with the host, the technician and producer, and the ‑‑ and the third person, co‑host.

7007             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  The ‑‑ as you know, there is already in Saskatoon a re‑broadcast of the Natatawin group and who is already serving the ‑‑ that population.  And we also will be hearing later today an application by Saskatoon Broadcast ‑‑ Radio Broadcasting for an eventual, we will say, Aboriginal‑ran radio station.

7008             Do you think there's room for you in that ‑‑ in that market if they came into consideration what ‑‑ let's deal first with the La Ronge service that is already there, that has been there for many years.  Yesterday, they ‑‑ they were saying that they were rather successful in Saskatoon with ‑‑ particularly with inserted in the time period, with getting the youth audience listening to them.  They were getting strong support from the audience in ‑‑ in Saskatoon.

7009             So where do you see yourself fitting in the ‑‑ in the market with the La Ronge existing service?

7010             MR. HILL:  I think the mission ‑‑ the primary mission of Aboriginal Voices Radio is to improve the lives of Aboriginal people, so I'd like to say that first.  I think that we are distinct from the other broadcasters.  There are some distinct differences, for instance, regarding the national dialogue and involving that community in the national dialogue.

7011             I would also propose that the Aboriginal community, like the rest of the average Canadian population, would benefit from having a choice as far as Aboriginal broadcast programming.  And, you know, I believe that in most communities where there are significant Aboriginal populations, they don't really have a choice, you know, there's one primary broadcaster there.

7012             So in light of the fact that there are differences between our broadcast and the other, I think that the choice is particularly relevant.

7013             And I don't ‑‑ I don't really think that we're going to affect the incumbents in any negative way, and that's not our intention.  Our intention is to add to, you know, improving the lives of Aboriginal people, but not to negatively impact in any way.  So I believe that's primarily what we would be doing.

7014             MR. HENNESSY:  The fact that our music selection on the station is virtually 100 percent Aboriginal, and by our calculation 60 percent Canadian Aboriginal, makes us distinctly different from the local commercial broadcast station, which has stated that they broadcast up to 25 percent Aboriginal artists.

7015             So there's quite a different focus.  They serve the local region, and obviously by their success have been doing an excellent job of that, and they've done it by blending mainstream country and popular music artists with Aboriginal artists and selling commercials.

7016             We're distinctly different in the fact that we are a cultural service.  We feature Aboriginal artists, Aboriginal talent, to the exclusion of the mainstream artists.

7017             I think in that way we're distinctly different from a commercial, non‑commercial point of view.  We're making no infringement on their business model, and we believe they're doing an excellent job in their method, their plan of serving the Aboriginal people.

7018             But choice is good, and this is noncompetitive choice, and we believe even working in cooperation with any of the other Aboriginal broadcasters, the more we can do to expose the talent and the performers and the artists, the more we've achieved the mandate that we have taken on ourselves.

7019             MR. CARDINAL:  I think philosophically the Board of AVR believes that freedom is based on the amount of choice that you have, and we believe that Aboriginal commercial radio is not necessarily in opposition to a nonprofit Aboriginal national radio broadcasting service.  We think that we can provide more service.

7020             I don't think one radio network or radio service can be a catch all or service all for everything Aboriginal.  It needs to be shared as a relationship between commercial radio, Aboriginal commercial radio, and nonprofit Aboriginal radio broadcasting.

7021             MR. HENNESSY:  There's a very good ‑‑ very good possibility that the La Ronge operation will discover, or an artist or a group will come to them with a new recording, for example, that we have not seen or have not heard.  They will give it exposure, which would naturally be a spillover to our people in Saskatoon to pick up on that group and add to their awareness, and then by branching it out through the network, we can expand the awareness of that artist or group across the country.

7022             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Have you reviewed the application of Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting that we're going to hear later this afternoon?

7023             MR. HENNESSY:  Yes, I have.

7024             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  You have?  And how do you see yourself vis‑a‑vis SRB?

7025             MR. HENNESSY:  Well, again, the big distinction is the fact that they were proposing youth‑oriented pop music, quite a mainstream sounding radio station with an Aboriginal staff and components, where the people will get training and learn to become professional broadcasters.  And, quite frankly, I think it could be a good talent pool for us for future hiring.  We can always offer someone the network job, you know, that type of thing.

7026             But the fact is that what they're proposing, again we believe things that help advance Aboriginal training, Aboriginal education and the expression of Aboriginal opinion is a positive thing.

7027             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  So you don't see them as competing for the same audience in a way, or they may be providing specific programming, programming genre to ‑‑ what you are saying is they're looking to cater to the total Saskatoon population, you will love to be catering to the whole Saskatoon population, but you know that with the music ‑‑ your music choice and the specifics of your programming, obviously you're going to reach much less than the total population.  What you're saying to me is that Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting, in using Aboriginal talent, will be aiming at the total population of Saskatoon?  Am I ‑‑

7028             MR. HENNESSY:  That's my understanding from what I read in their presentation, or in their application.

7029             MR. WOOD:  Commissioner, just to give you kind of a global overview of the differences between the three, we are, of course, national, and one is regional, and the other is local.

7030             Secondly, we are 100 percent Aboriginal, one is part Aboriginal, and another is non‑Aboriginal in the music that they deliver or are proposing to deliver.  I suppose they'll have some, but they certainly won't be in the kind of level that we will.

7031             And third, in terms of the commitment to enriched spoken word public affairs programming, we are a 100 percent cultural service.  You wouldn't call us tantamount to being the CBC, but we are closer to that end of the spectrum than the mainstream side of the spectrum.  I think those are the three essential differences.

7032             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you, I appreciate the comment.

7033             MR. HENNESSY:  Radio is ‑‑ I'm sure you have heard this and are aware of it, but radio is very much a mood product, and virtually no one, unless they're forced to, listens to a single radio station in a given week.  Three is usually the accepted average of the number of different stations that people listen to.

7034             And what Mr. Wood has just expressed, I think reflects that.  If people are seriously interested in discussing and getting more information about an Aboriginal issue, we would be the station of choice.  We believe we'd be much more that than the other two applicants.  Just another way of looking at the differentiation.

7035             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I forgot to ask one question about programming.  I know that on your programming grid you have a specific program for the Francophones.  Are you ‑‑ will you run that program here in Saskatoon?

7036             MS MOUSSEAU:  Yes, we do.  We do plan on doing that.

7037             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you.  Madam Chair, those were my questions.

7038             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Williams ...?

7039             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good afternoon, Gentlemen.  And the most important member of your group there.  I'm going to get in as much trouble as ‑‑

7040             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm kicking both men off this panel.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7041             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  The hearing must be going on a long time.  I note during your opening remarks on page 4 in your last paragraph you said, "During our appearance regarding our Regina application yesterday, AVR also agreed to a condition of licence precluding the solicitation of local advertising and to a conditional licence requiring AVR to commence the airing of its local programming within" ‑‑ within a couple years, and it's been discussed a little bit earlier.

7042             Generally the Commission expects licensees to provide local programming ‑‑ or to provide local programming if local advertising revenue is sought.  An example, 42 hours per week of local programming is required in the case of commercial stations.

7043             In your opinion, should the Commission consider imposing a conditional licence precluding the sale of local advertising until a certain level of meaningful local programming is achieved?  As I mentioned, it is 42 hours per week in the case of commercial stations.  At which level of local programming should the CRTC Commission allow ‑‑ consider allowing AVR the ability to also solicit local advertising revenue, or is that something that you do not need?

7044             MR. WOOD:  We think it's a reasonable expectation that a certain amount of local programming should be achieved before we are allowed to sell, but we certainly do think that we should be allowed to sell in the market once we achieve that threshold, if we do.  We don't expect that the revenues, local revenues, in any market will be very high.  Essentially we will be a national service selling on a national basis through a national rep firm.

7045             But to the extent that there will be Aboriginal businesses in the community that will want to advertise on some of the programs that we air, we just don't think it would be a good idea to have a restriction like that.  But if indeed you impose that as a condition of licence, we certainly will live with it.

7046             MR. HENNESSY:  We also mentioned yesterday the idea that we were not a commercial radio venture and that we're not for profit and we're not a commercial radio venture.  And, in fact, what we're looking for is support to ‑‑ excuse me.  Support to develop the programming, the information services, et cetera, from national agencies, industry associations, et cetera.  And that is the model that we are going forward with, and we will not have a retail sales force going out and soliciting advertising.  And that's not our intention to become a commercial vehicle in the market.

7047             I think the point that Mr. Wood was pointing out is the reverse could happen.  We could, in fact, have an Aboriginal art gallery having a fall sale of carvings, for example, that wanted to put that word out.  Certainly our news and information service will cover that, and you'd probably find them on the morning show doing an interview talking about what's coming up.  If they came forward and said to us, here's $500, would you tell it a few more times?  The absolute ban on it would preclude us from doing it.  I think that's the ‑‑ the point that Mr. Wood was talking about is perhaps that should be an opportunity.  But I know that we also stated ‑‑ we also stated that we were not going to be a commercial radio station, and ‑‑

7048             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I understand that, Mr. Hennessy.  I guess I was thinking of it from the point of view if a business was ‑‑ an Aboriginal business, for example, or even a non‑Aboriginal business, was so pleased with some of the things you were doing within your chosen area of expertise and they wished to support, they could support through sponsorship rather than ‑‑ what if they wanted to lend their ‑‑ the Northwest Company, for example, wanted to support the efforts of AVR, how would they go about doing that?

7049             MR. HENNESSY:  Well, I guess they could become one of the friends of AVR and send a donation, but sometimes people are a little more pragmatic than that and they want something concrete.

7050             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  They may want something in return, I guess, is what I'm saying.

7051             MR. HENNESSY:  As opposed to a thank you at the end of a newscast?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7052             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That's the ‑‑

7053             MR. HENNESSY:  Although there are organizations that are quite happy to receive that, it's a good image for them within the community.

7054             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  If you were doing 42 hours per week of local programming, would that change your answer in any way?  Let's say you were doing 42 hours a week of Saskatoon programming, would you then be interested in perhaps pursuing some local advertising revenue?

7055             MR. HILL:  Commissioner, we haven't really pondered such a question, but we're comfortable in where we are at on this issue, so ‑‑

7056             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  That's fine.  I just thought I'd ask.  My apologies, Ms Mousseau.

7057             MR. HENNESSY:  It really isn't something we've gotten into a discussion about.  Making 32 hours effective has been more the topic of conversation.

7058             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Big challenge as it is, okay.  Thank you very much.

7059             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are you finished?  The financial projections issue that we were talking about, that was, I think Mr. Hennessy, it was the financial projections showing what you believed would be your incoming revenue in the coming years?  Or was it Mr. Hill?  I can't remember which?  And the sources of that revenue.  Because the issue is to test your ‑‑ your projections against your assertions as to when you can launch and things like that.  And I believe one of you said that you had it and would file it.

7060             MR. HILL:  As far as filing the information you're referring to, Madam Chair?

7061             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

7062             MR. HILL:  Yes, we are ‑‑ I believe that is part of what was filed.

7063             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that is what has been filed?

7064             MR. HILL:  Yes.  We have filed specific information regarding revenues.

7065             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

7066             Now, the COL, and I have been sitting here drafting it fairly clearly, to have 32 hours of Saskatoon‑produced programming within 24 months, because it was by the end of two years of going on air in Saskatoon; is that acceptable?

7067             MR. BUCHANAN:  Yes.

7068             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And the nonsolicitation COL is still acceptable?

7069             MR. HILL:  Yes, that is acceptable.

7070             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  It's non solicitation, not nonacceptance of advertising.

7071             MR. HILL:  And we appreciate the distinction.

7072             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  And what language are your songs, your Aboriginal songs, in on the net, on the network?

7073             MR. HENNESSY:  On the net or on the network?

7074             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The network.  Like, how much Cree do you have?  How much do you play?

7075             MS MOUSSEAU:  The exact percentages of each song per language I'm not 100 percent on, but I know we're representative of all the different groups across Canada.  Everything from Innu, Inuktutuk.  We have the Michif language, Cree, the Haida Gwa'ai.  They're all there.  And everything that comes in in an Aboriginal language that has ‑‑ is a good song, we put it on the air, and there's quite a bit of it.

7076             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Two minutes, and I'm going to be really strict.

7077             MS BENNETT:  Madam Chair, if I could just ‑‑

7078             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm sorry, Counsel.

7079             MS BENNETT:  ‑‑ just seek some clarification.  I do have in front of me the documents that AVR has filed.  I'm not certain that this is what the panel was looking for yesterday.  We could either try to sort it out on the record now or we can take it off line and sort it out off the record.

7080             Thank you.  So we will talk after, thank you.

7081             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will adjourn that issue until the next time you're in front of us.  Does that sound fair?

7082             MS BENNETT:  That sounds fair to me.

7083             MR. BUCHANAN:  It sounds fair here too.  We're running out of rope.

7084             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I know.

7085             Mr. Hill ...?

7086             MR. HILL:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

7087             The primary mission, we believe, of Aboriginal Voices Radio, is to improve the lives of Aboriginal people.  We do believe that the Aboriginal community in Saskatoon, and maybe the greater population there as well, would benefit from choice in Aboriginal programming.  AVR is one of the primary, I guess, vehicles for the development of emerging Aboriginal talent, both spoken word and musical artists.  We would add to the diversity of programming in Saskatoon, and we don't think that we will negatively affect the incumbents in the market.

7088             If I could just ask Lewis Cardinal to add comments as well.

7089             MR. CARDINAL:  I would just like to add that Saskatoon, as I stated before, is an important part of our ribbon of radio across the country.  Without that licence it would be akin to having the Great Canadian Railway only make it up to Saskatchewan and start on the other side in Alberta.  It's a very important part of what we need to do in order to commit to the future of our people.

7090             AVR needs to do two things simultaneously.  One is to look to the future, but also from the vantage point of the future, is to be able to look back and look at the things very carefully that we're doing today so that it has implications for our future generations.

7091             MR. HILL:  Thank you very much.

7092             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, gentlemen, lady.

7093             I was going to take a break without telling you that you could take a break.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7094             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will take a 15‑minute break.  It's five after four, we will be back here at 20 after four.

‑‑‑ Recess 1605 / Suspension à 1605

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1620 / Reprise à 1620

7095             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.

7096             For the information of everybody, we are planning on finishing with Phase II today and not proceeding into Phase III until tomorrow morning at 8:30.  We will finish Phase II, yes.  So particularly the Golden West, CMI and Rawlco, you get to sleep and then you're fresh in the morning and you will have us fresh too.

7097             Madam secretary?

7098             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

7099             We are now ready to proceed with item 24 on the agenda, which is an application by Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Limited for a licence to operate an English language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Saskatoon.

7100             The new station would operate on frequency 106.7 MHz, channel 294C, with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts, non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 195.9 metres.

7101             Appearing for the Applicant is Ms Rita Mirwald, and she will introduce her colleagues.  And you will have 20 minutes for your presentation.

7102             Please go ahead.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

7103             MS MIRWALD:  Thank you very much.  Thank you, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

7104             My name is Rita Mirwald as was just mentioned, and I am one of the four trustees of Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting.  I am also the Senior Vice‑President of Corporate Services for Cameco, a major mining company here in Saskatchewan.  Cameco is one of the most successful and progressive companies in the area of First Nations employment in the province.

7105             On my left is the second trustee, Lyle Daniels.  He has an in‑depth understanding of First Nations and Metis communities and has a working relationship with many leaders in this community.  He is the Director of Sport Culture and Recreation and Youth for the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations.

7106             On Lyle's left is the third trustee, Bill Peterson.  His extensive newspaper experience includes being the President and Publisher of the Prairie Free Press in Saskatoon and Regina, and the Star Phoenix in Saskatoon.  At the Star Phoenix he formed an alliance with the Saskatchewan Indian Federated College, a predecessor of the First Nations University by the way.  And the purpose of that federation was to encourage First Nations students to pursue journalism careers.  He is Past Chair of the Native Journalism Development Program at that college.

7107             On my right is Mervin Brass.  Mervin is the Special Assignments Editor for KCOM in Saskatoon, where he is producing and hosting full‑length documentaries and programming for Rawlco's news talk stations.  The documentaries focus on issues of concern to both Aboriginal and non‑Aboriginal people in Saskatchewan.

7108             On Mervin's right is Christine Thille.  Christine is a Senior Advertising Consultant with CFMC‑FM in Saskatoon.

7109             Behind me are two gentlemen that you know well.  On my right is the fourth trustee Elmer Hildebrand, who is the President and CEO of Golden West Broadcasting.  He is also the owner of 629112 Saskatchewan Limited, which owns and operates CJWW‑AM, CFQC‑FM and CJMK‑FM in Saskatoon.

7110             On my left is Gordon Rawlinson, the CEO of Rawlco Radio.  Rawlco Radio owns and operates a number of radio stations in Saskatchewan, including CKOM, CFMC‑FM and CJDJ‑FM in Saskatoon.

7111             I agreed to be a trustee of Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting because I believe in the concept behind this radio station.  I think a station that would appeal to all young people in Saskatoon, and have a particular appeal to young First Nation and Metis youth, is exactly what Saskatoon needs at this time.

7112             Professor Howe's work shows how rapidly the First Nation and Metis population is growing in Saskatchewan and in Saskatoon.  One of the most striking aspects of his work is the remarkable growth rate of those under the age of 20.  Herein lies both the opportunity and the challenge for our province and our city.

7113             While most of the western world is lamenting a declining birth rate and its consequences, Saskatchewan is uniquely positioned with a baby boom that many would envy.  However, in the short term it does place demands on our infrastructure.  I have many friends who are teachers, so I certainly hear about the challenges of our inner‑city schools, including high drop‑out rates, chronic absenteeism and apparently the growing influence of gangs in our city.

7114             We know this is the situation, but what to do about it?  How can we encourage our Aboriginal youth to participate as full‑fledged members of our community?  This is certainly the challenge, and I believe this proposal can play a vital role in meeting this challenge.

7115             There are two components of this radio station that are key.  The first is that the station will be staffed entirely by First Nation and Metis people.  The second is that all the music and programming will be designed to appeal to young people, and it will be listened to by all young people in Saskatoon.  It is the combination of these two components that will mean the station will make a real difference in our community.

7116             Unlike most businesses, radio stations are highly visible.  A successful radio station staffed entirely by First Nations and Metis employees will make a statement in Saskatoon.  The mentoring program that will take place at the existing stations during the 12‑month period before the station goes on the air, is an essential part of the plan.

7117             My company has a long history of apprenticeship programming at our operating sites in Canada.  This has proven to be a very effective way for our First Nations employees to acquire technical skills.  The mentoring model proposed in this application includes many of the elements we have found lead to success, including one‑on‑one mentoring in a real workplace, support and assistance throughout the process, and all of this starting with careful recruiting to ensure that the candidates do indeed have an aptitude for the work.

7118             The prospective employees for the new station will spend a year working with mentors at the existing six radio stations.  They will be selected because they have the educational background, aptitude and character.  With the right combination of persistence and understanding, at the end of the year they will be fully prepared to move in and launch the new station.

7119             The second key component will be the music and programming that appeals to all young people in Saskatoon.  It will be a radio station designed to appeal exclusively to our youth.  It will play music the young people think is great, and I might add, it won't care whether I like the music or not.

7120             While some of the listeners will likely be aware of the First Nations and Metis background of the staff, they will listen because they think it's a great radio station.

7121             According to the research and those who understand the radio business, if it does this, the radio station will be commercially successful.

7122             Something that I think is a very important part of the application is the plan to establish close relationships with the schools in Saskatoon.  When you start thinking about what Saskatoon will look like in ten to 15 years time, the single most important thing that will make a difference is keeping our young people in school.  At some point in their formative years critical factors come to bear that influence their decisions as to what path they will follow.  If this radio station is constantly sending out the message that school is where it's at and staying in school is cool, that station can make a real difference.

7123             The announcers themselves will play a very important part.  They will be role models, showing that there is a path to achievement.  They will send the message in a high profile way that you can be successful just like us.

7124             MR. DANIELS:  I am from the Kawacatoose First Nation, which is about an hour north of here.  I can personally identify with the objectives of this radio station.  I was born in the inner city of Regina and it was rough.  My upbringing was sporadic and it didn't include a lot of parental support.  We could do pretty much anything we wanted to do.

7125             I know firsthand what it was really like when Rita was talking about which path young people choose to take with their lives.  I chose the positive path, but many of my friends didn't.  It was sport that kept me in school and made me responsible, and sports have always played an important part in my work helping young people.

7126             Because of my background, the objectives of this radio station are very real to me.  If it had existed in Regina when I was growing up, it would have made a real difference.  When it fulfills its promise, it will really change the lives of many First Nations and Metis young people in Saskatoon.

7127             There are many things I like about the plans for this station.  I do a great deal of sensitivity training with companies in this province.  It's all about understanding.  Understanding where the other side is coming from.  Understanding the prejudices that are impediments to true communication.  In many ways, I see this radio station as a sensitivity training for a young mass audience.

7128             The background of First Nations and Metis people does not prepare them well for life in the city.  Non‑Aboriginal people do not welcome them with open arms.  Making friends outside of their own community is difficult.  For young people, the reasons for staying in school are not obvious.  The concept that they can make a real life for themselves doesn't jibe with what they experience on a day‑to‑day basis.

7129             All of these challenges are exactly the challenges this radio station is designed to meet.  The announcers will become radio friends of all listeners, but for First Nations and Metis youth this friendship will be especially meaningful.  It will help break down barriers by providing something that all young people can have in common, the same favourite local radio station.

7130             The symbolic value of this radio station cannot be overstated.  It will be a clear symbol to First Nations and Metis youth that there is a life outside the inner city, and it will deliver the unmistakable message that the road to this life is to get an education and to stay in school.

7131             We are at the stage now that the non‑Aboriginal population was 30 years ago.  We are going through a baby boom.  This means a big increase in the number of young people and greater demands on the school system.  It will create a large pool of young people looking for work.  The encouraging part of this story is that more First Nations and Metis people are becoming better educated and more are graduating from school than when I was young.  While progress has been made, much more needs to be done.

7132             This radio station is a real opportunity that should not be lost.  It's a real ‑‑ it's a chance for real communication amongst all young people.  It is a chance to create high profile role models for the First Nations and Metis community.  It is a chance for them to become part of a mainstream media scene in Saskatoon.  It is important to the future of this city.

7133             MR. PETERSON:  For years Saskatoon has been talking about the significant role the First Nations community will play in the future of our city.  What has become clear is the future is now.  First Nations people are here, they are a big part of Saskatoon, and this will only increase.  Yet, unless First Nations have a meaningful voice in media, they are not ultimately going to be full partners in the community.

7134             While there's been some progress in embracing First Nations and Metis, the rate of progress has been far too slow.  Given the speed of the demographic change, more rapid progress is needed if future problems are to be averted.

7135             As an example, the education system has begun to respond.  There had been a serious need for programs that were welcoming and relevant for First Nations young people.  One strategy was to convert an entire high school to programs dedicated to serving First Nations youth.  The school is much more culturally sensitive, yet the standards for graduation remain the same.

7136             I have a First Nations little brother whose experience in a mainline high school was a disaster.  When he moved to the school with the greater sensitivity to his needs, it was total transformation.  He was happy and he graduated.  Successful models do exist.

7137             There can be no question that education of First Nations youth is absolutely critical.  Without education, the poverty cycle can't be broken and there is little chance to become contributing members of the community.  By working with schools, the programming will make staying in school the norm.  Simply by becoming a successful radio station, it will change minds and lives in our community.

7138             Having spent 22 years in the newspaper business in Saskatoon, I have some sense of what it takes to build a successful media outlet.  I've also had firsthand experience with the difficulties a new media outlet can face in establishing itself, building an audience and attracting advertising dollars.

7139             Two things distinguish this venture from other media start‑ups.  First, this new station will have strong financial backing right from the start.  Second, the year‑long training program for new employees, and the ability to draw on the best radio expertise, will give this station a tremendous head start.  Financial stability and intensive training will make all the difference.

7140             Today First Nations people are entitled to wonder why they have so little voice in local media.  Until they have a real voice and are an accepted part of the Saskatoon media landscape, they will always have a feeling of being left out.  This radio station is the right idea at the right time.  It gives First Nations a real voice in media, and that, in turn, builds the entire community.

7141             MR. BRASS:  When I first heard about the concept of this radio station, the first word that came to my mind was awesome.  I think it's a terrific idea.  We really need something like this.  My role will be to help with the training and mentoring of the staff for this new station.  I am well prepared and qualified for this job.

7142             My post high school education was at the First Nations University of Canada, formerly known as the Saskatchewan Indian Federated College, an extension of the University of Regina.  While there, I discovered the Indian Communication Arts Program, which is a prejournalism course, and I found my true passion in life, journalism and the media.

7143             As soon as I heard about this radio station I started to think about the people I knew who could fill the positions.  I was thinking of people with business backgrounds, with strong communication and interpersonal relationship skills and who have worked for both First Nations and mainstream companies.

7144             A good source of potential employees will be journalism graduates.  I have taught three classes in the Indian Communication Arts program, and just from these classes I can think of at least ten people who could come in and do a great job at the station.  I am confident I could pull together a team that, with a year of training, would be ready to launch the station.

7145             From my own experience, it's tough and a real challenge to move into mainstream newsrooms.  Often I was the only brown face on the team.  Now that I have had that experience, it's my turn to share it with other First Nations people pursuing a career in radio.

7146             This radio station will really be a chance to show the First Nation people at their very best.  The concept of their announcers becoming role models is something I'm very familiar with.

7147             For myself, and for a few of the others who have high profile images in Saskatchewan, this recognition happens nearly every day.  We are recognized in the community because of our work.  We are invited to schools and community events just so that others can see us as people who have succeeded and are active in the community.  To have an entire radio station staffed by talented Aboriginal people would have a tremendous impact.

7148             The feeling in the Aboriginal community is that the young are totally ignored unless something negative happens.  Announcers and newscasters with firsthand knowledge of the issues can make a real difference.  I know because I'm an example of this.

7149             The radio show I co‑host, Meeting Ground, is a program that we have been doing at Rawlco Radio for the past six years.  The program tackles both mainstream and Aboriginal issues.  At times we are critical and hold Aboriginal leaders accountable, but we also cover positive stories from the First Nation and Metis communities.  We must be doing something right, we won a national radio award for best community information program from the Canadian Association of Broadcasters.

7150             The point of the show is to bring the two cultures together to exchange ideas and a place to learn.  That's the same vision for this radio station.  It will be an interesting and entertaining radio station that will truly be ground breaking.

7151             MS THILLE:  I too think that this radio station will be great for Saskatoon.

7152             I have my Metis card from the Metis Nation of Saskatchewan, and am a member of the Duck Lake Local number 10.  I have a Commerce degree in marketing from the University of Saskatchewan.

7153             Like Mervin, my role will be to help mentor and train the First Nations and Metis staff of the new station, but I will be involved in the sales and marketing side.

7154             I already have had experience mentoring new hires in the sales department at Rawlco Radio, so I feel that mentoring the new staff will be an exciting extension of this experience.

7155             The prospect of having a radio station staffed entirely by First Nations and Metis people does not seem as daunting to me as perhaps it does to others.  Right now at our Rawlco stations in Saskatchewan we have 15 employees of Aboriginal descent.  Three in news, four as on‑air announcers, one of whom is also the music director, three in sales, two in production, one traffic manager and two receptionists.  Together we could almost be a complete radio station.

7156             My vision for this station is that it will be one that the young people of Saskatoon will like for the music.  The fact that it will be staffed by First Nations and Metis people will be secondary.

7157             We currently have an announcer on Rock 102, Alan McKay, who is First Nations.  Most listeners are not even aware of this.  They listen to his show because they like it.  The fact that he's First Nations is not a consideration in their minds.

7158             If the music is great and the announcers are great, young people will listen, whether they're First Nations, Metis or not.  Of course, for the ever‑growing number of First Nations and Metis people, identifying with the on‑air personalities will mean something special.

7159             This station is something totally new and different.  For the First Nations and Metis youth of Saskatoon it gives them a place on the radio dial that feels like home, but it is still mainstream and can be enjoyed and shared with their non‑Aboriginal friends.  This station will address something that is important to the people of our city.

7160             MS MIRWALD:  Madam Chair, in our presentation today we have tried to give you a chance to get to know the outside trustees, who along with Mr. Hildebrand, will oversee this new radio station until it is handed over to Aboriginal ownership.  That will be our final act.

7161             The company that I work for has had a lot of experience with this concept.  We have enjoyed significant success with a development plan for emerging Northern Saskatchewan First Nations businesses that brings together an experienced southern operator with a northern counterpart.  As northern competencies grow and mature, the southern partners reduce their interests or are bought out entirely.

7162             The transfer of ownership will be an event of great significance, and even as I sit here today I look forward to it with great anticipation.

7163             This concludes our presentation and we look forward to your questions.

7164             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

7165             Commissioner Williams ...?

7166             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

7167             Good afternoon Ms Mirwald and panel.  Just in the last paragraph of your opening remarks you raise an issue that I had listed to question you about.  So maybe I'll start with this one, and obviously any member of your panel that is most appropriate to answer and wants to contribute is certainly more than welcome.

7168             It says, "We have tried to give you a chance to get to know who the outside trustees are, along with Mr. Hildebrand, who will oversee this new station until it is handed over to Aboriginal ownership.  That will be our final act."  And, "The transfer of ownership will be an event of great significance and even as I sit here today, I look forward to it with great" significance [sic].

7169             That's, I guess, referring to your agreements, is known in your trust documents as the division date.  So it would be turned over at what price?  And I also understand it will be turned over when it's operating successfully, so can you define successfully?  If we can start with those two questions first, please.

7170             MS MIRWALD:  Thank you, Commissioner.

7171             I will provide some answer and I will call on perhaps others to help me as well, if that's all right?

7172             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Absolutely.

7173             MS MIRWALD:  Thank you.

7174             My understanding of this is that it certainly is the ‑‑ it's the mandate of the trustees to establish a successfully operating radio station, and to conduct a thoughtful and transparent, careful due diligence in the selection of the new owner.  The actual fee that would be charged to the new owner is, I believe, a very nominal fee of a dollar.

7175             Now, your second ‑‑ or one of your questions was how would you define successful?

7176             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Right.

7177             MS MIRWALD:  I suppose to some extent we've left that a little bit in the eye of the beholder, if I can say it that way.

7178               But certainly we imagine and anticipate that in approximately year three of our ‑‑ you may have had a look at our pro forma financials, you will see in about year three that we begin to believe that cash flows will improve.  That any perspective buyer that we would ‑‑ in parallel with the operation of the new station, we would be seeking a potential buyer.  We think any buyer that has an interest in the station at around that time will start to see that success is either on the horizon or has been achieved, and we would cultivate active interest in the transition to an Aboriginal owner.

7179             But I will ask others to join me in that who might like to add something to it.

7180             MR. PETERSON:  Rita, perhaps I'll jump in.

7181             Mr. Commissioner, I think without being too crass, the moment the station turns a profit it becomes a valuable asset, and First Nations groups or individuals wanting to own it will be lined up.

7182             Our job will be to create a viable business entity that gets it to turning a profit, and I would anticipate we would have nothing but a selection of potential owners to choose from.

7183             MR. BRASS:  I'd like to add that I'm already saving up for that one dollar.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7184             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is that because you're paid so poorly, Mr. Brass?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7185             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I think the $1 price for a radio station in a major market showing a profit, you'd certainly have a line up of suitors.  Can you outline what the selection process will be?  Like, how will you conduct your hearing into who should be the new owners of that radio station at that time?

7186             MS MIRWALD:  That's something that we, as trustees, have certainly talked about I would say philosophically.  I think we see that we have four criteria that we would look for.  We would look, of course, for First Nation or Metis ownership.  So we would be seeking that.  We would be seeking some business acumen.  Some demonstration of business success, ideally in this sector, but certainly general business success.  We would be looking for an interest obviously in media in particular, and I think, frankly, a fourth one would be more of a softer condition.  The intent to maintain the spirit of the station and its commitment to the community.

7187             Those are very broadly speaking the four principles that we would look to.  I must say, in fact, we haven't got a firm plan as to how that, you know, actual auction, if you like, or request for proposals or due diligence would actually occur, but we do have some years to bring that together.

7188             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  When you ‑‑ in your first criteria of First Nations or Metis background, would you be considering that it would have to be representative of a group or an organization, or could it be an individual, or could it be a joint venture or a combination of any of the previously mentioned?

7189             MS MIRWALD:  Yes, I think it could be any of the options that you have mentioned.  We think all of those are potentially viable, depending on some of the other qualities that those prospects might bring to the table.  So certainly a joint venture would be acceptable, as would an individual.

7190             Does any of the other trustees want to comment?  Lyle ...?

7191             MR. DANIELS:  Obviously living in Saskatoon now for the past 12 years I've become knowledgeable to some of the people and organizations in and around Saskatoon.  We would obviously look at First Nations and Metis businessmen and organizations that we may partner with.  That could include youth organizations like White Buffalo Youth Lodge, a number of the inner city First Nation schools and so forth.  It could be a ‑‑ it could be a First Nation that's in and around Saskatoon.  It could be the Saskatoon Tribal Council, which have some real successes, specifically with Muskeg Lake, with the urban reserve right in Saskatoon.  There's a tremendous amount of other businesses and people that I think would do ‑‑ like you said, will line up very quickly.

7192             MR. BRASS:  I'd just like to add, part of the show that I co‑host, Meeting Ground, the last half ‑‑ the last segment of that program we have a business segment.  And there are hundreds of businesses that are run by Metis or First Nation entrepreneurs that are successful.  The most recent that comes to mind in Eagle Drilling.  They won a provincial recognized award, an Abex award for their work.

7193             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  His last name is Eagle, isn't it?

7194             MR. BRASS:  Yeah, Derrick ‑‑

7195             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I read a bit about it, yes.

7196             MR. BRASS:  Big Eagle I think his last name is.  I could be wrong, but ‑‑ that's an example of the type of entrepreneurship that is out there.  So finding people that may have an interest in expanding their interest into the media I don't think would be a problem.

7197             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  How was this idea born?  I'm ‑‑ maybe just before we go there, that's the next place we will go.  What consultations took place with local Saskatoon or area Aboriginal community prior to ‑‑ prior to conceiving this idea?

7198             MS MIRWALD:  Thank you.

7199             Maybe I would call on Gordon Rawlinson to start at the very beginning with that.  Gord, would you?

7200             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Maybe if Mr. Rawlinson perhaps followed by Mr. Hildebrand, as you answer that question you can also expand into your motivation for wanting to get involved in this initiative and why you decided to do this?

7201             MR. RAWLINSON:  That's a good ‑‑ that could be quite an answer ‑‑ a long answer.  Well, many years ago I became aware of the demographics of what's happening in Saskatchewan.  And the statistic that was quoted to me at that time was that the average age of all First Nations and Metis people in Saskatchewan was 17, and the average age of the non‑Aboriginal population was 37.  So I realized, my goodness, there's ‑‑ that's ‑‑ the future of this province is highly dependent on what happens with the First Nation and Metis population.

7202             I started thinking about what we could ‑‑ is there anything that we could contribute, and that's where we came up with the idea for our contribution to the University of Saskatchewan.  When I grew up in Prince Albert and I played basketball with two First Nations guys on the basketball team, and they ‑‑ we all went to university together, and the first thing I knew they had dropped out within several months.

7203             I took that thought and the fact that little old me going from Prince Albert coming up with a rather privileged background and going to Saskatoon, I still found that somewhat of a culture shock, and I thought what it must be like for these kids.  So then we ‑‑ anyway, we made a donation to the University of Saskatchewan to help First Nation and Metis kids go through the College of Commerce.

7204             That got me in touch with a number of leaders in the First Nations community.  So ‑‑ so that got us a lot more familiar.  Subsequent to that we've done Aboriginal training at all of our radio stations.  We've made a real effort to hire Aboriginals, and have some reasonably good success.  And we're involved in ‑‑ I won't go through the whole gamut of things that we've done.

7205             So when the prospect of a call for applications for Saskatoon came up, we started thinking, well, what's really needed in Saskatoon?  And I've got to say, quite frankly, I want to put this carefully, but quite frankly I don't think there's any other radio station ‑‑ any radio station of any type needed in Saskatoon, but if the CRTC, if you feel like there should be a radio station, we feel that this is the one that makes the most sense.

7206             And so then we started thinking, okay, how are we ‑‑ how can we encourage this type of a radio station to come along?  And one of our people came up with the trust idea.  Well, that's when it got complicated because we got the lawyers involved, and doing a trust document is way more complicated than I ever realized.  And ‑‑ but anyway, that was the idea.

7207             I approached Mr. Hildebrand, what did he think of it?  He said that he would be supportive as well.  We then thought, okay, who would be really ‑‑ who can we find that would be really good trustees, and we came up with three additional people in addition to Mr. Hildebrand that we think would be terrific trustees, and started putting it together.

7208             I don't know if I've taken that far enough along, but that's where it all came from.

7209             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That's an excellent start, Mr. Rawlco [sic].  Mr. Hildebrand?

7210             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Well, I think at our respective radio stations we've always tried to do some Aboriginal programming, but I don't think we've ever done it really well because it's part of a broad mix of total community service.  And the concept of providing the training, and ultimately using a frequency in Saskatoon, a valuable frequency that will be dedicated to an Aboriginal radio station, it makes a lot of sense, in that the Aboriginal community is the fastest growing part of Saskatoon, and for that community to have their own radio station is just, you know, I think a once in a lifetime opportunity.

7211             And when we started talking to different people about it, they would get very excited, as you already saw from the panel in front of me.  So that is my reason for supporting it.

7212             I agree that there isn't room for more radio stations in a normal course of events in Saskatoon, but if the Commission, in its wisdom, decides, you know, that a licence has to be granted, then this would be the one that makes the most sense, not only for today, but for many years in the future.

7213             MR. RAWLINSON:  And if I can just add one other thing.  We spent a fair amount of time talking about how could we ensure that this would be a viable, successful proposal, and a viable, successful station ultimately.  I think it would not be a good thing if this station were not to succeed, so hence we came up with the training concept, we came up with the idea of funding it all and setting it up so that we will be able to hand ‑‑ hand off a radio station, or the trustees will be able to hand off a radio station, that is successful and, as we say, fully staffed by First Nation and Metis people.

7214             And so, quite frankly, I'm very excited about the concept, and there will be a lot of work involved in making this come together, but we think it's what's needed.

7215             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Mr. Rawlinson and Mr. Hildebrand.

7216             A question for each of you gentlemen again.  Is there a financial return, either direct or indirect, to either of your organizations as a result of starting and eventually divesting of this proposed station?  Other than the dollar that Mr. Brass is saving for?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7217             MR. HILDEBRAND:  As a matter of fact, there will be a cost to this to us, but we see this as one way of giving back to the community.  And we think that the training and the experience that we can give through our respective stations to the future staff, will stand them in good stead and will be able to become a viable entity, you know, as our leader said, within three or four years.  And so, as a matter of fact, we would like to make this happen as quickly as possible because at that point we will be able to stop underwriting it.

7218             MR. RAWLINSON:  And my comment would be that there are several components to cost.  There is going to be a fair amount of management time and time of our staff devoted to this.  There's obviously all of the financial cost.  There's the cost of the training.  There's the ‑‑  well, recruiting and then training the staff.  There's a cost of building the station.  There's a cost of subsidizing the losses until it breaks even.  And then finally what we're doing is we're creating a competitor for ourselves.

7219               So this is a ‑‑ you know, this radio station is going to sell advertising in the market, that's going to have a negative impact on our radio stations.  And if I might say, this station will have a greater impact on my stations than they will on Mr. Hildebrand's stations because our stations appeal more to the younger end than his do.  So ‑‑ so he's getting a good deal.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7220             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I don't know, I think Mr. Brass is still getting a better deal.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7221             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So I guess my understanding is your two organizations will 100 percent underwrite all of the costs involved with this initiative, including remuneration to trustees, employees, trainers.  The station itself would be self‑sustaining once the initial start‑up capital has been invested, and the start‑up capital would be a donation.  Would that be a fair characterization?

7222             MR. RAWLINSON:  Yes, that's ‑‑

7223             MR. HILDEBRAND:  That's right.

7224             MR. RAWLINSON:  It will be 100 percent funded by us, including funding losses, until it breaks even.

7225             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I think I have an understanding.  I may come back a bit more to this, but I'm going to work you through some of our standard questions now on the different genres and formats and various parts of what makes up a successful application for a radio station from us.

7226             You mentioned that you would be playing several genres of music that target a younger demographic, including hip hop, dance hop, R and B and new rock.  Will your music be programmed into genre specific music programming blocks, or will you mix the various genres throughout the day?

7227             MS MIRWALD:  I will hand off to Mervin to answer that question.

7228             MR. BRASS:  We haven't really gotten that far, as ‑‑ you know, like, fine details about exactly the song order, the genre order throughout the day.  What the ‑‑ it will be standard music that's, you know, the Cancon content will be the 40 percent.  It will also be music that young people can relate to.

7229             Sitting here, I think of my daughter.  She's 13 years old.  And she took me to a concert in Montreal last summer.  Well, I took her, I paid for it.  That's why I have to save that dollar.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7230             MR. BRASS:  So there ‑‑ you know, after school she brings home her friends.  She not only brings home Aboriginal kids, she brings the, for lack of a better word, the white kids too.  And they come into the house, and I come home from work and it sounds like there's a party going on at five in the afternoon at my place.  You know, the music is pumping and it's all this young music.  Before you know it, I'm asking her, Brie, what is the name of that song?  It's a good song.  Do you mind if you drag it into my site on the computer?  So she does.  So it's all this new music that's all the rage right now that the kids are talking about.  You know, the Gnarls Barkley, you know, that dance, the hip hop, the Ludicris, you know, the ‑‑ what's that ‑‑ the Nelly Furtado, the music like that that the young people can relate to.

7231             And it's not just Aboriginal kids that are going to relate to it, non‑Aboriginal kids are going to relate to that type of music, and it's something that you turn on the radio and you're going to be, hey, I like this station because the young people want to hear it.

7232             MS MIRWALD:  I think Lyle would like to make a comment.

7233             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Mr. Daniels, proceed.

7234             MR. DANIELS:  Yes.  The one thing that I think about when it comes to the genre, is the fact that when Merv talks about those artists I don't have a clue what he's talking about or who they are.  The one thing that tells me as an employee for the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations one of the things that we have going every year is a youth assembly, bringing in youth from all over ‑‑ all over Saskatchewan to come up with resolutions that will help us understand and figure out what type of programming the young people want.

7235             You know what?  I think to be quite honest with you, I think that's one of the ‑‑ as a trustee it will be my responsibility to spend some time with young people, get them to be a part of the system as well, and make them tell us what will be part of that.  So it's too early for me to honestly say that I can tell you exactly what's going to be part of the programming, but I'll tell you the one thing that I think is necessary, that we hear from young people telling us because I'm too old to understand what's good for them.

7236             Thank you.

7237             MS MIRWALD:  If I could add just as a reminder maybe to all of us, unlike I think most of the applicants that you hear from, we are, we recognize, a bit unusual in that you're not talking to the general manager and so on.

7238             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I understand that.

7239             MS MIRWALD:  We do have, you know, a year, and we will identify a general manager, we will have two program directors, in total 19 people 12 months before we go on air, so I think we would, you know, work into all that detail through that time when we've hired those key players.

7240             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That's a fair response.  I will ask you a couple general questions in that area then maybe just to flesh out the file a bit.  Why do you believe the type of music you've described, Mr. Brass, would provide Saskatchewan or Saskatoon with the greatest degree of programming adversity and represent the best choice for your target audience?

7241             MR. BRASS:  That's what the young people are listening to these days.

7242             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Great answer.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7243             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Can you tell us a bit how the sound of your proposed CHR station would differ from the existing CHR station in the Saskatoon market, CFMC‑FM?  How would you be different?  Do you have ideas on how you might be different?

7244             MR. RAWLINSON:  Maybe I'll jump in.

7245             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Sure

7246             MR. RAWLINSON:  CFMC, or as we call it C95, is kind of a ‑‑ I think the slogan is classic hits and today's best music, so it displays some classic hits and some of the current music.  It has a new music show from nine to midnight, where it's exclusively new music, but it doesn't play new music all day long 100 percent of the time, and this station will.  This station will be playing all types of new music all day long because again the target is a much narrower target than C95's is.

7247             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  And as Mr. Brass said, that's what they're listening to or want to listen to.  I would like now to discuss some of your spoken word initiatives.  I noticed that on August 21 you replied to the staff's question on the amount of spoken word programming to be aired weekly, stating that you would air approximately nine to ten hours per week, of which four to five hours would be news, sports, weather and other surveillance.  However, you further specified that you would air two to three hours of news weekly.

7248             In light of this, could you tell us the amount of news to be broadcast each week, and does this amount include surveillance material, weather, traffic, et cetera?  And if so, could you tell us or ‑‑ the estimated total hours that would be devoted specifically to news?

7249             MS MIRWALD:  Thank you.

7250             I think I will call on Gordon Rawlinson again, please.

7251             MR. RAWLINSON:  This is again kind of a difficult situation because I think you, Commissioner Williams, have seen Rawlco appear before you and we have all of these answers down to the exact minute.  In this case we aren't the people going to be deciding this.  The ‑‑ we're funding this.  Mr. Hildebrand will just be one of the trustees.  It's going to be the trustees who are going to hire the staff, who are going to get into the specifics.

7252             But ‑‑ so we're estimating that a station like this, because it's youth oriented, will not run a huge amount of news.  Approximately two and a half hours a week of news, probably in the morning period and in the afternoon period.  That ‑‑ and the news part, based on this deficiency answer, the news was a component of the news, sports, weather and other surveillance, so the actual pure news would be about two and a half hours out of a total of about five hours.

7253             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you.

7254             MS MIRWALD:  If I ‑‑

7255             MR. RAWLINSON:  I hope that's specific enough, but we just ‑‑ we don't feel that we should be the ones constraining the ‑‑ so again, it's kind of an awkward situation.  How can you give a licence to somebody that says we don't know exactly what it's going to be, but it's approximately.

7256             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I'm going to ask you all the questions, we're going to hear all your answers, and we will decide at the end of the day I guess.  And not today either.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7257             MS MIRWALD:  If I could just add one thing, Mr. Commissioner.  In debating these questions ourselves amongst the trustees, while I'm very new to this process, it's my understanding the CRTC, when the licence is transferred to the Aboriginal ownership, will have, if you like, another opportunity at that time to look at detailed programming when the licence transfer occurs.  At least it occurred to me as a practice fact that that would be another opportunity in time when the detailed programming could be discussed with then the licensee.

7258             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes, except there's many competitors for this opportunity.

7259             MS MIRWALD:  Agreed.

7260             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  And they are playing by the same set of rules here, so you will all be treated the same, I guess would be my answer to you.

7261             MR. DANIELS:  One added comment.  I want to see a lot of sports, especially youth sports, because nobody heard about my son's peewee football team winning the city championships, you know.  They don't hear that.  That's the type of stuff I think we really need to concentrate on because our young people are growing up and they're ‑‑ they're in successful areas, but we just don't hear enough as to what's happening in the communities.

7262             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How often do you think this station would plan to air news and surveillance reports in a given day?  Can you give us an idea of the scheduling and, say, the length of each newscast?  And I realize it may be your benefactors, if I can use that word, might be more suitable to try and help answer this question.

7263             MR. RAWLINSON:  It's ‑‑ it's not precise, but we would think probably news every half hour in the breakfast period, fairly short newscasts, two or three minutes in length, and, you know, 6, 6:30, 7, 7:30, 8, 8:30.  And then again news in the afternoon.

7264             But I would be surprised if there wasn't some kind of a news for the kids that runs at eight or nine at night, something that they would want to create.  Again, you will guess that that would be the kind of thing that they would want to do, is set up some kind of here's what's going on.  Pretty casual type of approach to the news, but what's really of interest to, say, high school students or university students, to run in the evening.

7265             But, I'm sorry, I just ‑‑ we can't say in good conscience that this is exactly how it's going to work because we're not the people deciding that, nor are the trustees, it will be the employees that finally do that, this fine tuning.

7266             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  But there is a mentorship training kind of role through this ‑‑ weaved through this project as well; is there not?

7267             MR. RAWLINSON:  Yes.  So it would be ‑‑ maybe Mervin has a thought?

7268             MR. BRASS:  I do.  News is my background.  I spent nearly ten years reporting news and ‑‑ but another education I received again is with my daughter.  You know, sometimes she's into the news, sometimes she doesn't care what's going on.  But there are some stories that, you know, she will say, hey, dad, did you hear about this?  And I will say yeah and we will have a discussion about it.

7269             They like stories that they find are really cool.  The entertainment type stories.  To them, you know, Madonna adopting a child from Africa, that's big news for them because they know who Madonna is.  And some of these kids, you know, they want to be Madonnas when they grow up.

7270             But something that we're going to offer in this station, and I think it's really neat, it's kind of like the show that I co‑host right now, Meeting Ground, it will be like Meeting Ground's little brother or little sister.  It will be Saskatoon Life we're going to call it.  It's on page 35 of our document.

7271             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That's great.  My next question was going to ask you about Saskatoon Life, so just go right into it.

7272             MR. BRASS:  I'll continue going into that then, sir.  This program will be something that will focus on an issue that all young people can identify with and they can relate to.  And because the station is Aboriginal people hosting and reporting and looking into it, they will provide a unique perspective from the Aboriginal point of view talking about this issue.  Much like the show that I co‑host right now, we offer a unique perspective from this angle.

7273             Let me give you an example of this.  Let's say obesity.  Nobody really like to talk about that.

7274             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I'm sorry I didn't hear?

7275             MR. BRASS:  Obesity.

7276             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Obesity.  Oh, I've heard of that.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7277             MR. BRASS:  Yeah.  Nobody likes to talk about it, but it is a problem.  Not only among Aboriginal young people, but amongst our whole entire young population.  It's getting out of hand.

7278             So how would we cover that in this program ‑‑ on this program here on this new FM radio station?  Well, first of all, it would be coming from a young person's point of view because they're young reporters, young broadcasters working there, who probably have some friends who have struggled with this issue or family members and they'll know about it.

7279             They'll have that perspective from that.  You know, they know that sometimes some of these families out there can't afford a balanced diet that includes protein and the right amounts of vegetables, that the only diet they can afford is something like Kraft dinners, and maybe once per month on family allowance day a bucket of KFC.  That's what happens out there, they can relate to it.  There are some issues there.

7280             Also physical activity.  The high cost of sporting programs.  Can most young people afford that?  No.  Can their parents, who are probably from single income families afford that?  No.  I know that because that's one of the challenges I have right now with my daughter is the obesity issue, also with getting her involved in sports.

7281             So that's something that this program would touch on, and it would educate, inform, but also give some human interest side of it of how people have overcome these obstacles and these challenges and have turned it around.  That's much like what Meeting Ground does.  So Meeting Ground's little brother, Saskatoon Life, well, that's what it would do.

7282             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You said in your material presented to us in your application that Saskatoon Life is a program directed at young people which will address issues such as dating, sex, AIDS, drugs, alcohol abuse, and you indicated the program host would invite one or two outside experts to discuss the show's topic and help take calls from listeners.  Would these outside experts be certified as professionals, or where do you plan on getting the experts to help with the phone‑in shows and ‑‑ how would you select them?

7283             MR. BRASS:  Well, the experts, there are many resources out there to find experts.  It doesn't matter what ethnic cultural background these experts come from.  If they've studied the issue and they can bring a new light onto it and explain it at a level that young people will listen to and identify with, then by all means they will be a guest on the show.

7284             You know, if we have to go across the country, around the world to find these people, that's why we have telephones.  We can phone them up and bring them on, or if they live locally ‑‑ that would be the preference, is to have somebody from the University of Saskatchewan, or maybe from one of our institutes, Saskatchewan Indian Institute of Technology to come in and provide answers and responses to these.

7285             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  With the telephone, would you have help line numbers or web site addresses that offer a channel from which troubled youths or people wanting more information can contact you?

7286             MR. BRASS:  We haven't gotten to the part of having a web site, although most media organizations in this day and age generally have media web sites.  That's something that we haven't discussed yet.  Right now we're worried about getting a licence.

7287             Definitely that's something that we would consider.  You know, if we wanted to attract the young people, we have to be hip and have to have web sites.  We have to have e‑mail addresses.  We have to have the ability to maybe go on‑line with them and talk with them because that's where it's going.

7288             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  When do you imagine this program will be presented?  Is this going to be a week night or a weekend or what time of the day and how frequent?  What time of the week?

7289             MR. BRASS:  Well, we haven't received a licence yet so we haven't set up our broadcasting schedule.  For me, when I would like to listen to a program like that would probably either be early in the morning when you're getting ready for school, that's, you know, between seven and eight.  That's a time when kids are getting their hair done, they're having breakfast.  If the radio is blasting and they have a program that they can listen to that helps them do that, that would be a good time.

7290             Another time is maybe early in the evening, between seven and eight, or between six and seven.  Parents are bringing their children home from practice or from plays or from other programs that they have them in.  You turn on the radio and you listen to the show then.  You know, it will help parents understand the issues young people are facing today.  So those would probably be the times that I would want to see those programs running.

7291             MR. RAWLINSON:  And we would be recommending that they would be repeated too, these shows.  So, you know, if we do a particularly good show we might run it several times that week at different times.

7292             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Would you have a phone‑in component to this show?

7293             MR. BRASS:  Absolutely.  A lot of young people these days have cell phones, they have the ability now on these cell phones to listen to radios or text messages.  But, yeah, it would be definitely phone‑in because sometimes kids need help and they don't know where to go for it, but they have that anonymity with the telephone to call in and ask questions.

7294             You know, if we're talking about teen sex issues for example, some kids are uncomfortable with talking with the school teacher or talking with their parents even because it's awkward.

7295             If they have this call‑in show, you know, they're not going to ‑‑ nobody is going to recognize their voice or know who that is.  They can call in and say, you know, I have this question here, I need help with this, can you give me an answer to this.  So absolutely, the phone line would be a way that we would communicate with the kids.

7296             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I'm sure that you're aware the CRTC in its public notice 1988‑213 entitled policy regarding open line programming, the Commission is concerned that licensees who carry open‑line programs be aware and adhere to the requirements with respect to abusive comment, balance and high standard as set out in the Broadcast Act and regulations.

7297             So in your planned open‑line programming, do you have any internal guidelines, policies or other mechanisms in place with respect to the conduct of open‑line programs, and if you do, could you provide us with some details?  And if you cannot assure us today ‑‑ if not, can you assure us today that you will establish measures to ensure that your regulatory obligations and responsibilities with respect to open‑line programming will be met at all times?

7298             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Yes, for sure they will be met at all times.

7299             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Is Saskatoon Life the only program in which you will have an open‑line segment?  And if not, what others are anticipated, and please give us a short description of their content and approximately when they would be presented in the broadcast day week?

7300             MS MIRWALD:  Unless someone else chooses to answer that, I think we're back at the same dilemma that is unique about this application, Mr. Commission, is we simply haven't taken that ‑‑

7301             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  It is then still to be developed?

7302             MS MIRWALD:  Yes.  We haven't taken it that far and would wait until the hiring of our staff to work that through.

7303             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  We will go back to Saskatoon Life then.  You stated Saskatoon Life would air twice a week.  Does this represent the airing of two distinct ‑‑ I guess Mr. Rawlinson has answered that.  There would be some repeat factor.  Would the same program be repeated in the same week, or would it be repeated the following Monday again or something?

7304             MR. RAWLINSON:  There would be two distinct one‑hour shows, and then each of those shows could be repeated during that week.

7305             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.

7306             MR. RAWLINSON:  So it actually may run more than the two hours per week because ‑‑ but there will be two new shows every week.

7307             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  But they could be repeated, is what you're saying?

7308             MR. RAWLINSON:  Yes.

7309             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Your application proposes to present spoken word programming which will appeal specifically to Aboriginal youth.  Can you give me some more details on how you will achieve this through your spoken word programming?  What special way of presentation are you going to use to target Aboriginal youth?  Do you have any strategy in that area?

7310             MS MIRWALD:  Yes.  I should perhaps make a small note that we aren't just targeting Aboriginal youth.  While we are staffing 100 percent Aboriginal, our target is really all youth in Saskatoon.

7311             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  The target is all youth?

7312             MS MIRWALD:  Yes.

7313             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  That's a good clarification.

7314             MS MIRWALD:  So that is certainly a distinction that we would like to make.  We believe that having a full complement of staff, we estimated 19, who are managing, directing, programming this station, will build into the perspective of the station, to the news, to the selection of music, to the stories that are pursued in the community, an Aboriginal perspective that is missing right now in our local programming.  And while we ‑‑ we will endeavour to make sure that that programming appeals across a very wide audience, because we do see that that is our mandate as distinct from a specific Aboriginal mandate.

7315             So we would ‑‑ we would select and encourage, as trustees, that the general managers and the director of programming, approach programming with that particular double mandate.  That they bring a unique perspective, but it has to be able to appeal and attract to a large youth audience in Saskatoon.

7316             Now, that's a very general answer to your question.  I know it's not as specific as you would want it to be.  Is there any other trustee or speaker who would like to say something?

7317             Bill ...?

7318             MR. PETERSON:  Mr. Commissioner, just sort of in that direction, I think one thing that has been discussed by the trustees, it pains me greatly as an old newspaper guy to say that newspapers are abdicating the responsibility in being the primary source of local news, but what we're seeing in places like Saskatoon is radio is emerging as the primary source of local news right across the spectrum.

7319             But that tells me that that is the way to communicate with young people, whether they are First Nation or non‑First Nations.  There is a tech tonic shift happening in our community where the newspaper used to be the primary source of local news, radio is being the primary source of local news.  And I can only imagine that is emphasized with younger, more technologically adept people than I am.

7320             MR. RAWLINSON:  Commissioner Williams, I want to reiterate though, the concept of this radio station is to appeal to all youth.  It will be tough enough to make it a financially success ‑‑ financial success targeting all youth.  If we said youth, and only Aboriginal youth, the target is way too narrow.  You just ‑‑ you can't make that a commercial success.  So it's all youth, but 100 percent staffed by Aboriginals and ultimately owned by Aboriginals, then you've got ‑‑ that alone would be a huge success if we can achieve that.

7321             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  This is probably wise that we all live and work together anyway, right?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7322             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I noticed that you'd be staffing the station through your Aboriginal mentoring and training program.  Can you tell me more about this program, or various programs?  For example, how will the participants be recruited, and who will mentor them and when will you know they've graduated and are ready to perform in the new station?

7323             MS MIRWALD:  Maybe if I could call on Christine?  You've been a bit quiet there, Christine, and you have a history of mentoring and recruiting within Rawlco currently, and perhaps you could answer the Commissioner.

7324             MS THILLE:  I'd be happy to.  Right now what I do at Rawlco Radio is I mentor a lot of the new sales hires, Aboriginal or not.  They're selected by management, and I know, myself being Metis ancestry, I wasn't given any, you know, easy ride through the hiring process.  I wasn't given any ‑‑ you know, I was treated the same, and I would feel that the same process would be taken for the hires for this new radio station.  I mean, obviously they have to be of Aboriginal descent, but they would go through the same hiring practices, and that would be under the guidance of the trustees.

7325             Once they are ‑‑ they have been selected, their mentorship would begin.  And because my area is in sales, the same as what I do with new salespeople on our radio station ‑‑ in radio stations in Rawlco, is they come out on calls, they meet clients, they ‑‑ you know, they're involved in the paperwork process.  It's a very hands‑on process, and I think that that's really key.  You can learn things from books only so far and then you have to go out and do it.  And I think that's the real key, is doing it for a year.  So that when you're ‑‑ when they're ready to take on the new radio station, it's not new to them, they've done this for a while already.  And I know this is what Mervin does with people in the newsroom as well.

7326             MR. BRASS:  Yeah, like Christine, who is a graduate of the University of Saskatchewan School of Commerce, I'm a graduate of the University of Regina's School of Journalism.  And I've also taught at the Saskatchewan Indian Federated College, which is now the First Nations University of Canada, their INCA program, and that's Indian Communication Arts program.

7327             Every two years we have a six‑week long summer institute for Aboriginal students, non‑Aboriginal students, who are interested in learning more about radio, television and internet reporting.  I've had the privilege of teaching three classes from there, so I have a network and a growing list of potential employees in my Rolodex who have either graduated or went on to journalism school, or who are currently working in the business right now.  That's where I would go and recruit.

7328             I would start at the First Nations University of Canada, the INCA program.  Shannon Avison, the head of that department, and I, communicate regularly.  She lets me know who is up and coming, who to keep an eye out for.  And I ask her how is so and so doing?  You know, the last time I saw her or him they were doing pretty good, what's going on with them?  Are they ready to step in?  So I keep in touch with what's going on there, so recruiting is just a matter of going to the First Nations University, talking to people there and finding out who is ready and who is available.

7329             MS THILLE:  And likewise I'm a product of the Rawlco Resource Room at the College of Commerce, University of Saskatchewan.  There's a ‑‑ Rawlco Radio donated money to the College of Commerce to set aside a specific room for First Nations and Metis students to go where they can feel comfortable.

7330             They also have a person hired there to look after Aboriginal programming and making sure everyone is feeling all right about it.  And I know that we are still connected very strongly with them, and that would be a great way to recruit people on the business end of things.  I mean, those are great graduates from the University of Saskatchewan we would love to be working with.

7331             MR. BRASS:  The second part of that, the mentoring side of it.  I owe my career to a mentor, his name is Shaf Husain.  He's an East Indian fellow.  I worked with him at SaskEnergy, our local crown utility for natural gas here.  Shaf was also a product of the University of Regina Journalism School.  When he found out I was going and applying to the J school, he took me under his wing and he told me, Mervin, I'll help you get in there, here's what I ‑‑ here's what you've got to do, and he helped me prep for the upcoming challenges, writing the exam, doing the panel interview, going in there and filling out the forms, what I needed to do, how to be prepared for that.

7332             And he told me some day you'll have to do that also for other people who want to get into this school, help them out.  So I've done that.  I've done that already.  I'm prepared to do it again.  And that's what I tell people when they call me, how do I get into journalism?  How do I get into the media?  What do I got to do?  I tell them it's simple, you know, you ‑‑ well, it's not ‑‑ it's simple, but it's not easy.  There's lots of work, you know, and I walk them through it much the same way Shaf walked me through mine.

7333             MR. PETERSON:  Just one other point on the issue of finding the talent.  The University of Regina School of Journalism and First Nations University of Canada deserve amazing credit for a program called Weekend in Journalism.  They're doing all the things Mervin and Christine have talked about.  What Weekend in Journalism does is takes it back to high school and starts talking to kids in high school about, have you ever thought of a career in journalism?  To my eye that's a fairly innovative way of drawing people into the profession.

7334             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

7335             MR. BRASS:  Just to add to that, one of the people that went to that Weekend in Journalism when on to the INCA Communication Arts Program, took that six‑week program that I taught.  Went on, spent some time working with us in Rawlco Radio, with CBC Television in radio, and now is a publisher of a magazine in Saskatchewan here.  So that type of an example works.  And also we can add to that by having a place for them to go and hone their skills and develop a career in radio with this new radio station.

7336             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Great.  We will move now to the area of Canadian Talent Development.

7337             I note that you will fund one Aboriginal artist each year to produce a CD, and that you will promote this initiative on air.  Can you please explain how the selection process will work?

7338             MS MIRWALD:  I'll maybe call on Gordon.  I know you have experience in doing that already, Gordon.

7339             MR. RAWLINSON:  This is just a smaller version of our 10K20 program.

7340             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Kind of like a 120?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7341             MR. RAWLINSON:  Yes, this is a ‑‑ this is 10K1.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7342             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  10K1, okay, I got you.

7343             MR. RAWLINSON:  That's what it is, it's a 10K1 program.  The person would be selected by the management of the radio station.  That's what we have been doing in the other situations in Saskatoon ‑‑ or in Saskatchewan here when we did this 10K20 program.

7344             There was actually ‑‑ I think there was, out of the 29 artists that we funded this year, I think there are three Aboriginal artists.  The artists are ‑‑ one artist is called Eekwol and Mils, it's a First Nations from Prince Albert and it's a hip hop music, if you believe it.  Hip hop in Prince Albert, that's ‑‑.  There's an artist called Donny Parenteau, who was a Metis from North Battleford who did a country CD.  And Sarah Ostafie, who is Metis, from Saskatoon, and did a country rock CD.  So that's an example of three of the things that we've done.  So just as an example, there's a lot of talent, a lot of First Nation and Metis musical talent, and we would fund one artist or group each year, or the station would.

7345             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Where will the recording sessions take place?  Will the new proposed stations have studios suitable for serving as recording space, or would you plan to rent space off site or use facilities that others already have?

7346             MR. RAWLINSON:  Well, the way the 10K20 program, or the 10K1 program works, is that they ‑‑ we find a suitable artist, they have to come up with a proper business plan for how they're going to do it, and then we just give them the money and it's up to them where they go.  So they would go and rent space at a recording studio.  That's what all the other artists we have ever funded through this 10K20 program do.

7347             So there would be no difference in this.  Again, it's not original, but it is the very best Canadian Talent Development program that we've ever done in all our years.  That's why we're trying to expand it into other areas.

7348             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Would you echo that, Mr. Hildebrand, it's the best Canadian Talent in all the years that you've been around as well?

7349             MR. HILDEBRAND:  It's one of them.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7350             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I was kind of expecting an answer like that.

7351             Do you ‑‑ Ms Mirwald, do you expect the increasing Aboriginal population in Saskatoon to alter radio tuning patterns in this market over the next ten years, and in what way?

7352             MS MIRWALD:  As you know, I have no direct experience as a ‑‑

7353             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That's why I'm so interested actually in your answer.

7354             MS MIRWALD:  Yes.  Well, I followed the survey work that was done by Doug Fass(ph), the survey that you saw included in your material, and I just came to sort of a layperson's conclusion.  I could see Doug's statistics there.  I see also the statistics from Dr. Howe's work on demographics.  I guess I overlaid my common sense, but as Mervin said, if you really want to reach young people, Aboriginal and non‑Aboriginal, then you have to appeal to them with a medium that they are already attuned to, which I think is radio, and you have to get to them with music that they really enjoy.

7355             So it's ‑‑ and I think in the third case, in this example, with voices and DJs and young people who relate to them and the issues that they have as Mervin has described in a program like Saskatoon Life.

7356             So I just came to the conclusion this would be a very effective way to meet ‑‑ to reach a very vulnerable population.  I do tend to think of the younger group within that span, the 12 year old rather than perhaps the 24 year old.  I know that's kind of our core audience, but my mind tends to go to the 12 and 13 years olds, who I think are very impressionable, very much influenced by media events around them.  And I think if this was available in Saskatoon, it would have a significant influence, potentially a significant influence, on helping people make some of the right choices.

7357             That's truly what I think, but I invite the other trustees or my fellow panellists to help me with that.

7358             MR. PETERSON:  I think that's a dimension related to advertising revenue here.  You look at the demographics of Saskatoon, and the up and coming consumers are the kids.  You know, I think of CanWest Newspapers that a year ago launched Dose Magazine across the country, specifically aiming at a youth audience.  I had a couple of those projects when I was a newspaper publisher as well.  There is no one as hard to get to with advertising as a young audience.  I'm thinking that this station, the commercial story of this station, will be up and coming as well as the content story.

7359             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Would that explain why your advertising revenue projections for the proposed station indicate that you expect national sales only to account for 6 percent of the station's revenue over the first term of licence?  And if that's the case, could you please explain why you expect your proposed station would have such a limited appeal to national advertisers?

7360             MR. RAWLINSON:  The statistics are for national advertising, well over 50 percent of the advertising buys are targeted to 25‑54.  I think the next biggest category is 18 to 49.  Then it's 18 plus or something like that.  Then it's females, the 25‑54.  I mean, it just goes on and on, and targeting for youth is very low in national advertising.  It's one of the reasons why it's very hard for youth stations ‑‑ youth‑oriented stations to make a go of it.  The national advertising is very low.

7361             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Do you see any changes in that?  I'm just trying to remember the name of the station.  We licensed an HD station a few weeks ago and it's called Baby TV and it was aimed at I think one to three or two to four year age group.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7362             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I'm just ‑‑ are there changes that are coming in radio that may skew towards the younger audience?

7363             MR. HILDEBRAND:  If they have ‑‑ if it is, we haven't factored that in.

7364             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yeah.  You estimate that 70 percent of the advertising revenues of your proposed station in year one would come from existing stations.  This estimate of the percentage of year one advertising revenues that would be garnered from existing stations appears high relative to the estimates provided by the other applicants.  Could you please explain your estimate that your proposed station would garner 70 percent of its projected year one advertising revenues from existing stations?

7365             MR. RAWLINSON:  Well, I had something to do with that calculation.  It is our belief that we really do a good job in sales, as does Mr. Hildebrand's operation, and that we get most of the dollars, if not ‑‑ virtually all of the dollars that are available.  We have a huge sales staff and a very professional sales staff in our operations in our radio stations, and I won't speak any more for ‑‑ Mr. Hildebrand can speak to this too.

7366             So given that, in fact, we think that most of the applicants here if they are licensed will take ‑‑ over 80 percent of their advertising will come from existing stations, but because this is such a narrow demographic, that's why we only put 70 percent.

7367             I mean, that's what happens.  The guys, they get a new entrant comes into the market, including this one, and they just get a list of all the people who are advertising, go out and say, hey, you know.  Now, because it's a youth oriented station, they will try to find people that specifically appeal to that, and they'll get some of that.

7368             But our stations also have a number of youth targeted advertisers already advertising, so it isn't like there's a bunch of people sitting out there that are dying to spend money, you know.

7369             Because we currently reach ‑‑ on C95 and Rock 102 we currently reach most of this youth.  You know, the people that listen to the station that are very young, may not ‑‑ it may not be their favourite and they wish there was a station that played, you know, 100 percent their music, but in the absence of something else, they listen to our stations.  So I think that the ‑‑ these higher percentages are much more realistic about what's going to happen for any applicant, quite frankly.

7370             MS THILLE:  If I can add to that, being that sales is my background, in speaking to businesses that target this demographic, they know advertising is important, so they're already doing a lot of it.  And I work with lots of them, and I can see, I mean, the potential that, you know, they would move dollars perhaps from C95 to this station because it fits them a little bit better perhaps.

7371             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Based on the annual return date provided by the incumbents in Saskatoon, the market in 2005 significantly underperformed as compared to the national average at the level of profit before interest and tax margin.  In your view, how much weight should the Commission place on this indicator, and what other factors should we consider on determining market capacity for a new entrant?

7372             MR. RAWLINSON:  I think you should place a huge amount of weight on that factor.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7373             MR. RAWLINSON:  I think we're kind of conflicted in answering that question, so I don't know that that's appropriate that we would.  I just don't think that's something we can properly answer in this mode here.  We'd be speaking about ourselves, and I don't know, I think that it's an awkward thing for us to respond to.

7374             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I agree.

7375             To ensure ‑‑ these are some questions in the area of understanding the purpose of the trust and the role of ‑‑ the different roles within it, and maybe a bit of discussion on what effective control of the trust is.

7376             To ensure compliance of the proposed structure with the direction at all times, please indicate how you will ensure the beneficiaries meet the 80 percent Canadian threshold?  For example, will you set up a reporting system to monitor the eligible beneficiaries upon request, and if so, will this be included in the deed of trust?

7377             MS MIRWALD:  Yes, I'm sure we would.  You ‑‑ when you ‑‑ and you are speaking about the beneficiaries being the eventual owners?

7378             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  The eventual owners.

7379             MS MIRWALD:  And the question there is whether we would guarantee or assure that 80 percent would be Canadian ownership?

7380             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That is correct.

7381             MS MIRWALD:  That's the gist of it.  Yes, indeed we would, and we would welcome any requirement to, you know, have that as a licensed requirement.  That would be perfectly acceptable.

7382             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  We note that pursuant to Article 9.2 of the trust deed, to resolve a dispute in relation to a number of acts and proceedings, the opinion of the majority of the trustees is required, provided the majority of such trustees include the designated trustee.  The original designated trustee is Mr. Hildebrand.  Please explain the basis for including the requirement for approval by the designated trustee, and also explain what impact it will have on the decision making process of all of the trustees?

7383             MS MIRWALD:  The thinking behind requiring the support of the designated trustee was, I think, a combination of reassurance to the other trustees that the experience that Mr. Hildebrand brings will be a requirement in every ‑‑ in every ‑‑ in every major decision that the trust has to take, and a recognition that a significant amount of the capital investment will be coming from Mr. Hildebrand, and of course from his associate, Gordon Rawlinson.

7384             So the intent behind that was to acknowledge the special role and the legitimate special role that he has as a designated trustee.

7385             Bill ...?

7386             MR. PETERSON:  I think that's it.  You could see a situation the way this trust is set up where the three of us, as independent trustees and not knowing a whole lot about the radio business, might think it's a great idea to spend $10 million on a head office.  Well, in that case Mr. Hildebrand has expertise in radio, he's got way more knowledge than we do ‑‑

7387             MR. HILDEBRAND:  He would not agree to that.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7388             MR. PETERSON:  He would not agree, and you know what, it's his money.  So essentially, what the Trust Agreement does is it gives him a veto in those situations.

7389             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Article ‑‑ thank you for that, Mr. Peterson.  Article 9(3) of the Trust Deed states that a unanimous shareholders or other agreement will be executed to ensure that matters referred to in 9(2), which we just spoke about, require the majority vote or the opinion of the trustees include the designated trustee.  Has such an agreement been executed, and could you please describe briefly the principal provisions if it has been?

7390             MR. RAWLINSON:  No, it has not, but we would be happy to file one.

7391             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Would it be a signed one that you would be filing?

7392             MR. RAWLINSON:  The ‑‑ I'm just reading this again.  I think that we were contemplating doing that if there was a licence, or if ‑‑ so we would prefer, because that's again a huge amount of legal work and legal fees, we would prefer that should you choose to license this operation, that you could say that would be subject to a filing of a signed shareholder agreement.  I think I have seen that in some decisions.

7393             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.

7394             MR. RAWLINSON:  And that that would be a condition precedent to the actual licence being issued.

7395             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That's fine with me, and our legal counsel will clarify if it's fine with the Commission at the appropriate time.

7396             You note in ‑‑ you noted in the supplementary Schedule 2 to your application and response to deficiency questions that Lyle Daniels, Bill Peterson, Rita Mirwald and Elmer Hildebrand would replace Todd Rosenberg as directors of Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Limited by September 15, 2006.  Have ‑‑ has this taken place?

7397             MS MIRWALD:  Yes, it has.

7398             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  If you've all been elected, then we'd ask that you file the amendments to Schedule 1 and indicate how soon you can file that?

7399             MS MIRWALD:  Yes, we certainly will do that.  And we will do it as soon as possible.  Do you need a specific date as well?

7400             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Madam Chair, any guidance as to the timing?

7401             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The replacement of Mr. Rosenberg?

7402             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That is correct.

7403             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I thought that already has been filed.

7404             MS MIRWALD:  Is it in our documents?

7405             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Oh, it has been filed?  It's already been done.  I guess you work fast.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7406             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Rawlco 629112 Saskatchewan Limited, the numbered company and Mr. Hildebrand in the proposed structure are identified as the settlers, the protectors, and in one case the designated trustee.  Given the rights attached to them under the terms of the trust, could you explain for each entity how it does not exercise effective control over Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Limited?

7407             MR. RAWLINSON:  Well, there are two answers.  First of all, that's not the intent, nor ‑‑ and we are here saying that we're giving you our word we do not intend to exercise effective control.  Mr. Hildebrand has a veto, but it's very interesting that ‑‑ apparently effective control as defined by the CRTC regulations says a person ‑‑ it includes a circumstance where a person has the ability to cause the licensee or its Board of Directors to undertake a course of action, and of course that is not the case.  Mr. Hildebrand will have a veto, but he does not have the ability to cause anything to happen.

7408             So it's our contention that yes, Mr. Hildebrand has a veto, but he does not have effective control.  And clearly I don't have any control other than providing money in this case and some advice.

7409             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Can you comment specifically on the elements of the proposed ‑‑ proposed management, which I'll read, which are significant influence factors raising questions with respect to who will effectively control the licensee.  The requirement in Article 9(2) of the Deed of Trust of Mr. Hildebrand's consult ‑‑ consent, pardon me, as the designated trustee with respect in particular changes to the operating budget or staffing, if made would have the effect of increasing or decreasing costs greater than 10 percent on a per annum basis; b) to fix or change the direct or indirect compensation of any officer or director of the proposed licensee or appoint, remove or terminate any officer or director of the proposed licensee; change the name or conduct of the business and operations of the proposed trust ‑‑ trust or licensee; pay or transfer the whole or any portion of the trust estate at any time to or for the benefit of any one or more of the beneficiaries; approve the annual operating and capital budgets of the proposed trust and licensee; also discuss the degree of influence Mr. Hildebrand as settlor trustee, designated trustee, president and secretary of the proposed licensee.  There's more, but I think I will stop just to get some of your earlier response.  These seem to be indications of control that we need to get some comfort in that area.

7410             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Well, obviously I'll be working with the rest of the trustees to move the process forward and to review budgets and to approve the whole process going forward, but the control rests with the trustees, not with me.

7411             MR. RAWLINSON:  And if I can just comment on that.  The ‑‑ we thought that it was perfectly reasonable that the people providing the money would have to say ‑‑ would have the veto power to say if the ‑‑ establish a budget, and then the budget is all of a sudden going to be exceeded by more than 10 percent or there's going to be a significant change, to say wait a minute, hold on a minute here, let's not go crazy on spending all this money.

7412             And as far as choosing the beneficiaries, I think we talked about that earlier.  But it seems to me that the ‑‑ that ‑‑ our reputations are at stake here that this be done in a professional and proper manner and a ‑‑ you know, we're both going to be in this business a long time, Mr. Hildebrand and I, and so I think that there has ‑‑ in effect, there has to be a certain amount of trust that we're going to do the right thing, and that we have a lot to lose if this isn't conducted in a forthright and proper manner.  So we're just wanting to make sure this is done properly because we don't want it to blow up and have a big problem.

7413             MS MIRWALD:  If I could add, and I would ask my fellow trustees as well, I think ‑‑ I think for the trustees, we take the view that for an interim period of time we have a kind of stewardship of the shares of Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting, and we have a certain mandate with respect to those shares, rather like any Board of Directors.  Ultimately, those shares will be transferred to an Aboriginal owner, and all of the decision making and the oversight that we bring along the way will be intended to ensure the sustainable growth of this entity and of the equity in this entity to ensure it's of high value when we transfer those shares.

7414             I really do see our role here as pretty much like any traditional Board of Directors, even in a publicly traded company, although in this case we are legally a trust.

7415             But I would think we would build ‑‑ we have made the assumption, and I think we have been advised that we will have a high degree of director‑like responsibility with respect to oversight that we bring to the operation, and we too have reputation risk in this as individuals in the community.

7416             So with the exceptions of the vetos that I think are quite legitimate, I think it's the expectation of us as trustees that we will make and influence and come to a collaborative decision on all the items surrounding the future of Saskatoon Broadcasting Corporation.

7417             I invite the other trustees if you wish to comment.

7418             MR. PETERSON:  Just to add that I think the issues you raise, Mr. Commissioner, strike to the heart of good governance.  And Rita and Lyle and I all serve on a variety of boards, we understand the role of independent trustees.  We understand it's fair game for the Trust Agreement to establish some parameters to keep us on track so we don't go off on a tangent, but at the end of the day, we have a deadly serious responsibility to be independent in directing this operation.

7419             MR. DANIELS:  In a lot of cases in opportunities like this with Aboriginal people being a part of it, the term tokenism comes into play.  I have never put my name towards any organization or function or program where I was viewed as being a token member on a trust or a board for that matter.

7420             I think it's really important that the Commission understands that who you see here have a vested interest in what we want to accomplish, and that's a better life for our young people, and it's just plain and simple.

7421             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  This is a critical area of questioning for us to understand your application, so I'm going to ‑‑ I'm going to ask, I guess, a similar question in a few different ways so we get a full and complete record on this.

7422             In addition to their specific roles in the financial and ownership aspect of the proposed licensee, the supplementary brief provides for further involvement of Rawlco and Mr. Hildebrand's existing commercial stations, i.e. the Aboriginal mentoring and training program, the coordinator being a Rawlco employee, the project 10K1 ‑‑ I guess there's a typo here.  Furthermore, the proposed transmitter site for the new station is co‑owned by both of the broadcasters.

7423             Again, taking this into consideration, please demonstrate how effective ‑‑ how effective control of the new station will reside with the trustees and not with either of the broadcasters.  For example, and I'll just go through these questions one at a time, Ms Mirwald, and perhaps you can answer them.  Who will be in charge of recruiting staff for the new station?

7424             MS MIRWALD:  We will, I think, initially hire the general manager, and of course we'd use the general manager to, you know, source the other 18 positions that we estimate are necessary.

7425             In terms of the hiring of the general manager, which I do see as a key position, I think we would use our collective community resources.  I am responsible for the human resources function at Cameco, so I have quite a bit of familiarity with the protocols and procedures that we should use in terms of advertising, in terms of assessments, psychological and skill‑based assessments.  I think we do some really thorough due diligence in the handling of that position, and one of his first or her first tasks would be to set up an appropriate recruiting system and get themselves an appropriate staff member who can probably carry that out for them.

7426             MR. DANIELS:  And I start Monday.  Just kidding.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7427             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Well, if that's the case, who will constitute the management team of the new radio station, in addition to yourself?  If that was humour, I'll go back to you, Ms Mirwald.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7428             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Who will constitute the management team of the new radio station?

7429             MS MIRWALD:  Do you mean by title, so to speak?

7430             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Is Mr. Hildebrand or Mr. Rawlco [sic] going to be part of the management team?

7431             MS MIRWALD:  No.  By my definition of management team there would be a general manager, a program director, a news director.  I have a list here of the 19, you know, four announcers, two newscasters, a producer.  You know, we would have, I would say, a classic number of functions that a normal station would have.  So we would build that as one of our first tasks.

7432             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you.

7433             In Appendix 6(b) it is indicated that the proposed transmitter site for the new station is currently co‑owned by Rawlco and 629112 Saskatchewan Limited.  Pursuant to Section 10.1 of the Radio Regulations of 1996, it is specified that a licensee shall own and operate its transmitter.  Please indicate how the licensee will be complying with this requirement?  And you can seek help, for sure.

7434             MS MIRWALD:  I will seek help.  You can tell by the look on my face.

7435             MR. RAWLINSON:  Well, the ‑‑ it's the transmitter.  I mean, most broadcasters rent tower space from other people who have towers, and we would just be providing the tower space to this trust, which would have the ownership of the transmitter and the antenna and would be renting space on the tower.  It's just really a rental of the tower, or maybe some space in the transmitter building.  Which again, we have a number of stations in various locations where we rent space on towers and we rent space in transmitter buildings from other broadcasters.  It's a fairly common thing, so I don't think there's anything out of the ordinary there.

7436             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Ms Mirwald, as it currently stands, both Rawlco and Mr. Hildebrand directly or indirectly own and operate two FM and one AM station in Saskatoon for a total of six stations.  Under the proposed structure it could be argued that the addition of a new station in this market would raise the issue of compliance with the common ownership policy.

7437             Can someone on your presentation team please comment and explain how your proposal would comply with the common ownership policy?  And you have your full team at your disposal again.

7438             MS MIRWALD:  Thank you.

7439             Does anybody want to help me?

7440             MR. PETERSON:  Maybe, Rita, I will just slip in there.  My view of it is the trust owns it on a road to a First Nations or Metis owner.  And ultimately, as someone mentioned earlier, that means a competitor different than the two founders of the trust is created.

7441             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  The trust, it's own entity, I guess is your answer?

7442             MR. PETERSON:  Yes

7443             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  In the event the Commission were to conclude this new station would be effectively controlled by either one or both of Rawlco and Mr. Hildebrand's subsidiary, please explain on what basis should another station be approved under the common ownership policy, and explain how this would be in the public's best interests?

7444             MR. RAWLINSON:  Again, if the Commission concludes that there is ‑‑ that this doesn't comply with the ownership thing, then we shouldn't get the licence, it's as simple as that.  We're saying that this is a completely independent trust from us.  I take offence to the ‑‑ you know, another broadcaster or two that have said we were trying to get around the regulations.  I think we've been quite open with exactly what we're doing, and we think that it's quite clear there is no conflict with the ownership regulations.  But if the Commission concludes that, then clearly this would be ‑‑ you know, we shouldn't get the licence.

7445             This is strictly intended to ‑‑ what it is.  We think it would be a terrific thing for this city if you could have a station that is 100 percent staffed by First Nation and Metis people, and ultimately owned by them, and this was our best attempt.  It may well not be perfect, but we tried and tried and thought, and talked to lawyers and said how are we going to possibly do this, and to achieve the goal which ‑‑ for it to end up with a ‑‑ licensing something that would be really something that's needed and would be a wonderful thing for First Nation and Metis youth and for the whole population for the First Nation and Metis people, and this is our best attempt.

7446             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Maybe Mr. Hildebrand, and we can finish up with the trustees.

7447             MR. HILDEBRAND:  I think it's important to understand that we understand fully this is a new ground for the Commission, this is new for all of us.

7448             But we see this as such a once‑in‑a‑lifetime opportunity to present something in a community that will ten, 15 years from now may be up to 20 percent Aboriginal people, that, you know, when is a good time to start something?  It's like when is a good time to plant a tree?  Well, it's 20 years ago.  The next best time is today.

7449             We have an opportunity here that's quite unique.  And for the Commission to be hearing an application like this where two competing broadcasters are prepared to go the second mile to make this happen, is giving the Commission a unique opportunity, I think, and the Aboriginal community will be the benefactors.  So I think that just because it's unique doesn't say that we shouldn't proceed.

7450             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Do any of the trustees wish to comment on the position?

7451             MR. PETERSON:  Just you asked a very good question about how does this serve the              public interest?  I think the one word answer to that is capacity.  Rita and I flew down this morning on an airline called Westwind Aviation, it's First Nations owned.  But you know what, First Nations didn't start that airline from scratch.  They went to the owners and said, we want to tap into your expertise.  We want to tap into your experience, and we think we can run a good airline.  Over time they became the owners of that airline.

7452             I don't think in my limited understanding of even what I've seen today, that it would be reasonable to say to the First Nations of Saskatchewan, start a radio station from scratch.  Like, you know, I've been around a bit, and frankly, this process scared the hell out of me today.  And I don't think it would be reasonable to say, First Nations, you've got economic resources, go out and start a station from scratch.

7453             I think what we're talking about here is establishing the capacity so two or three or four years down the road we can use the Westwind model in handing the capacity, the expertise, a functioning, profitable business over to the First Nations ownership.

7454             MR. BRASS:  I would just like to concur with all of the people that have spoken, especially with Mr. Hildebrand, about the uniqueness of this opportunity here to offer career potentials for First Nation and Metis people.  Six years ago when I was teaching that class at the First Nations University I was working for the CBC.  At that time the CBC was talking about we need more Aboriginal people, we need to do this, we need to do that, you know, our demographics are changing, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.  And Rawlco Radio approached me, one of the vice‑presidents took me out for lunch, and he told me the same thing.  He said this is what Rawlco Radio wants to do.  We want to hire more Aboriginal people, we want to improve our Aboriginal content on the airways, we are going to do this, we are going to do that, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

7455             And I was sitting there, I looked at him and said, with all due respect, sir, I'm enjoying my lunch right now, you know, thanks for buying it for me, but I've heard this before.  Why should I think that Rawlco Radio is going to be any different than that?  He said because you have my word on it and you have the word of Gordon Rawlinson, the owner of this company, a commitment to that.

7456             Since I have been with the firm, Mr. Rawlinson has provided money to the University of Saskatchewan for the College of Commence, Meeting Ground, the show that they told me they wanted to develop has developed into a national award winning program.  We have ‑‑ when you walk into our Saskatoon station the first face that greets you is an Aboriginal face.  One of the first voices you hear in the morning on the radio when you turn it on is an Aboriginal voice.

7457             Everything that vice‑president told me was going to happen has happened, and now this is a logical step for Rawlco Radio, is to include more Aboriginal people in mainstream radio.  By creating this station, which is a unique opportunity, they are doing that.  So they went beyond that promise they made we over lunch.

7458             MS MIRWALD:  If I could add one more thing as well.  There has been quite a bit of comment here about how unique this application is, and indeed I think some of the structure, the use of a trust and so on around this application is unique, but the basic model, and I do reference that in my opening remarks, is frequently used and has been for about 20 to 25 years in northern Saskatchewan, and certainly by my companies and others there, not just us.

7459             And indeed the Westwind example that Bill gave is really an example coming south from the two Grand Councils.  Both the Meadow Lake and Prince Albert Grand Councils who really became familiar with that model, I would suggest through the uranium mining in northern Saskatchewan where it really has become a common practice where we aided and abetted, if you like, by the proponents, in this case ourselves and Araiva, the large French state owned company, where when we see a service need or a product need in the north to service the mines, we will try to put together an experienced southerner and bring in a northern counterpart, and the understanding from day one is that there is an expected transition, it would be written into the contract agreements.  The part the companies bring to it is we guarantee the business for some fixed period of time, sometimes five or ten years.

7460             In that period of time we expect a transition in ownership, and the capacity building that does occur is really and truly remarkable.  Our best example is probably Northern Resources Trucking, where Trimac, a very large international trucker, many of you may know Trimac, really began as a very large owner, really ran the show, so to speak, for NRT.  You may see their big trucks on the road.  Today Trimac represents only 29 percent of that ownership.  The remaining 71 percent is owned by a distribution of about 12 northern communities, and receiving dividends and enjoying the cash flow from that enterprise.

7461             That's a very familiar model.  I could walk through a number of them.  In some cases the southern partners disappear all together.  When I saw this come forward to me, that's what I saw in it, was a very familiar model that we know works very, very well.  And when we ‑‑ I say we, I mean sort of the uranium mining industry in the north, I realize it's perhaps ‑‑ well, it is more unique being applied to this sector in this industry, but I can assure you that there is a lot of precedent and it's right here in Saskatchewan and it has worked very well.

7462             MR. HILDEBRAND:  I think also that I want to underline the credibility that we can bring to the whole project is considerable with our experience.  In my other life in Manitoba I've been involved with the Manitoba Business Council for a good number of years, and we have developed a program with Aboriginal communities in Manitoba where over the last six years we have given away scholarships to Aboriginals amounting to $1.7 million.  So we have provided 700 scholarships to Aboriginals of $2,500 each.

7463             Now, I will also be able to bring that kind of information to the trustees and ultimately to management to give them the idea of how to do that kind of a program in Saskatchewan.  It may not get that large, but I have the information and the knowledge of how to make some of those things work.  And I think, as I said before, we have a unique opportunity here to provide some leadership and to be a showcase for the rest of the country.

7464             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Well, thank you very much, Ms Mirwald, and your panel members, trustees and settlers and mentorship trainers.  I've very much enjoyed having the opportunity to learn more about your file, and I'm sure my fellow commissioners will have some questions as well.

7465             That completes mine, Madam Chair.

7466             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Pennefather ...?

7467             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  Thank you very much everyone.

7468             Just a very quick follow‑up on two points.  Ms Mirwald, you were speaking about the governance model that you're familiar with for this kind of enterprise.  Just to be clear, the role of the Board, as you understand it under this governance model, I heard you mention the hiring of staff, the 19 staff or as appropriate.  Can you just give us ‑‑ run down some of the other responsibilities of the Board in the model that you're proposing in this particular enterprise?

7469             MS MIRWALD:  Yes.  And to follow on from that, I would see the role of the general manager akin to that of the CEO, and the responsibility typical of a Board of Directors to employ and to do performance reviews of the CEO.  So that would be our relationship, to me, with the general manager.

7470             I think in addition to that we would have the familiar responsibilities of fiscal oversight, certainly to the extent there was any, safety, health and environment.  I think ensurance that the entity stays within its mandate ‑‑ which would be a clearly prescribed one in this case ‑‑ and I think particularly in the early years, probably special attention to ensuring that all of the supports, the training, the ‑‑ whatever is extra that might be necessary to make this a success, would perhaps be ‑‑ would be supplied.  I think we'd take a special role there.

7471             When the operation moves ‑‑ or when the ‑‑ to me, when the station moves more into operating mode, I would think the trustees would retreat more to a very classic Board of Directors role, which is strictly oversight in the traditional functional areas, and one ‑‑ and then one of our main jobs is to find an appropriate Aboriginal entity to become the ultimate owners.

7472             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, that's helpful.

7473             Because there are ‑‑ the more traditional role is more of an overseer role, so you would be concerned with the mentorship program in particular?

7474             MR. PETERSON:  I would just add one thing to that.  I had the opportunity to serve on the Board of the National Broadcast Reading Service, Voice Print, and one thing that the Board does, and I assume we would adopt in this Board, is a very solemn question at every meeting, are we delivering on the promises we made to the CRTC?

7475             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay, thank you very much.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

7476             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cugini ...?

7477             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Good evening, thank you.

7478             I'd like to direct my question to Mr. Rawlinson and Mr. Hildebrand.  While I may agree that this idea deserves all of our respect undoubtedly, and is quite commendable, Mr. Hildebrand, you said, just because it's unique doesn't mean it shouldn't be licensed.  Aren't you really saying because, Mr. Rawlinson, you said ‑‑ or at the beginning of your presentation, you don't think anything should be licensed in this market.

7479             But if in our wisdom ‑‑ thank you for calling us wise ‑‑ we think we should license one, this should be the project to license.  So aren't you really saying that just because it's unique it should be licensed?

7480             And you're offering a mainstream format by offering this young demographic, and isn't all this is doing is shutting out a potential competitor because of the two of you being involved in this trust?

7481             MR. RAWLINSON:  Yes, and no.  There's no ‑‑ that's right, there's no way that this radio station could survive if there was another radio ‑‑ you know, another commercial licence granted, number one.

7482             Number 2, this station will be a competitor, and before long will be ‑‑ have completely separate ownership, not just the trustees, but it will be owned by a separate group, so we are ‑‑ we are creating a competitor.  It's different than some other competitor, but, yeah, it's ‑‑ so I don't know what to say beyond that.

7483             It's ‑‑ there's ‑‑ it's going to be a lot more expensive doing this kind of a competitor than somebody else because we're paying all the money and getting no return, rather than some other licensee, which we hope doesn't happen, but at least then we won't be putting all the money into it and then getting nothing back.

7484             I don't know what else to ‑‑

7485             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Obviously we are prepared to fund this only if no other commercial licences are granted at this time in Saskatoon other than AVR.  But either way, we are going to take a hit here, and we see that this kind of process will make more sense in the long run.  There will be a bigger benefit to the community in the long run if we, as opposed to taking a hit on the left side, we say, oh, we will give some money away to provide an entity that will have long‑term value to the community, that will be a bigger benefit than diluting the process to a greater extent in Saskatoon.  Because at the end of the day, this may be the only way that an Aboriginally owned radio station can ever really be established.  And we're prepared to make that happen.  And we're giving the CRTC that commitment.

7486             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So just so I'm clear, Mr. Hildebrand, did you just say that if we license this service and anything else other than AVR, this Trust Agreement will be dissolved?

7487             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Then we're not prepared to fund it.

7488             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Then you're not prepared to fund it?

7489             MR. HILDEBRAND:  That's right.

7490             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you very much.  Thank you, gentlemen.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

7491             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

7492             I just have one question and it was on the issue of effective control.  And you said, Mr. Rawlinson, that it said it is to do something, and a veto is not an active action.  Is that your point?  A veto is a ‑‑

7493             MR. RAWLINSON:  That's right.  That's my understanding.  You know, I'm not a lawyer, but I ‑‑ clearly Mr. Hildebrand will have a veto on those few important issues, but he cannot force anything to happen because the majority of the trustees are the only ones that can force something to happen, that can, in effect, initiate something.  That's my understanding of how it works.

7494             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah.  It would seem to me though that to do something is the same as to not do something.  But I guess prevent is more a passive thing.  Okay.  Thank you for that.  I had to sort of think it around.

7495             Ms Mirwald, you have two minutes to sum up and complete your presentation.

7496             MS MIRWALD:  Thank you very much.

7497             I'm going to share my two minutes with Lyle Daniels beside me here.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

7498             I think this has been a very interesting discussion, good for us, and I hope interesting and good for the Commission as well.  I think I could sum up for the trustees and my panellists as well, that we do believe collectively that this concept still will work.  We recognize it is unusual and unique in this sector, but we think it is the right thing, I guess I would say, at the right time, at a very propitious time in Saskatoon.

7499             I believe the model will work for the reasons I've stated, that I'm familiar with this model for about 20 years in northern Saskatchewan and have the successes that I have been familiar with during that experience.

7500             And I would like to pass it over to Lyle, who I think could speak more from a broader perspective than I can.

7501             MR. DANIELS:  The one thing I am really proud about is the fact that the two gentlemen sitting behind me are investing in our young people.  No matter what other radio stations will call it, these gentlemen have stepped to the plate and has honestly said we need to do something for our young people, and this is it.

7502             Developing another avenue for our young people to succeed is another important aspect that we bring as part of this application.  We are not developing jobs.  The young people are not going to be in this radio station to go and clean the washrooms.  These are actually going to be career opportunities where they may stay in there for a lifetime.  And we want Aboriginal youth to develop programming, and I think this is the key part of the whole application, is that we want Aboriginal youth to develop programming for all youth in Saskatoon.  And I'll turn it back to my counterpart.

7503             MS MIRWALD:  Thank you.

7504             That really concludes our remarks, and thank you for your time.  It's been ‑‑ all of us are novices here and we've enjoyed it.  It's been very interesting and we thank you for this opportunity.

7505             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank you very much.  We will take five minutes and be back in five.

‑‑‑ Recess at 1826 / Suspension à 1826

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1835 / Reprise à 1835

7506             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.

7507             I have to say on record that I apologize for the late hours, and unfortunately the schedule is the schedule.  And I was saying to Commissioner Cugini that it's certainly going to cut down on Phase II interventions.

7508             Anyway, Madam Secretary.

7509             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

7510             If I can indulge for a couple of minutes just to indicate for the record that we have a couple of documents that were filed with the Commission.  One was filed in confidence by the Applicant CJVR, which was the breakout of revenues for Melfort stations.  This will not obviously be available on the public record.  But the other document is Newcap Radio's market comparison between various stations.  That will be placed on Newcap's Saskatoon application file.

7511             We're now ready to proceed with the last application for the Saskatoon market, which is an application by ‑‑ item 25 on the agenda, an application by Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Limited, the general partner, and Jim Pattison Industries Limited, the limited partner, carrying on business as Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Limited Partnership, for a licence to operate an English language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Saskatoon.

7512             The new station would operate on frequency 106.7 MHz, channel 294C, with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts, non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 179.1 metres.

7513             Appearing for the Applicant is Mr. Rick Arnish, who will introduce his colleagues.  And you will have 20 minutes for your presentation.

7514             Mr. Arnish ...?

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

7515             MR. ARNISH:  Thank you very much, Madam Secretary.

7516             We were just chuckling before you came back Chairman Cram, boy, can we ever pack them in here in the room tonight.  Nice to see such a big audience here to hear our presentation.

7517             Anyway, good evening, Madam Chair and members of the Commission and Commission staff.  My name is Rick Arnish, President of the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group.

7518             We are very pleased to be here with you this evening to present to you our application for a new soft vocals FM station to serve the City of Saskatoon.  We recognize that we are the last competitive item on your agenda and that it has already been a long week for the Commission, for staff and for our competitors.  As such, and out of respect for the Commission and the process, our presentation this evening will be very brief.

7519             We believe that all of the salient points of our application are well presented in the documents already on file with the CRTC.

7520             Before we begin our presentation, it's my pleasure to introduce our team.  To my immediate right and to your left is Gerry Siemens, Vice‑President and General Manager of the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group's Vancouver Stations.  Beside Gerry is Bruce Davis, Vice‑President of Sales for the Pattison Broadcast Group from Kelowna.  To my left is our external legal counsel Chris Weafer from Owen Bird in Vancouver.

7521             We will now commence our presentation.

7522             Madam Chair, members of the Commission, Commission staff.  The application we have before you is an important one for the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group.  Our group is a regional player headquartered in Kamloops, BC, which has, to date, served the two most western provinces of our country, Alberta and British Columbia.  Our group consists of 29 radio and television stations with all stations located in small markets, except for our two Vancouver stations and our media market stations in Kelowna.

7523             As a small market broadcaster we have made significant commitments to provide top quality local programming, outstanding local news and information services, and a total dedication to be intertwined in the cities and towns we serve.

7524             Our local stations and staff serve as the voice of their communities.  Our broadcast group's public service record, I'm proud to say, speaks for itself and has been recognized by the Canadian Association of Broadcasters, regional broadcast associations and the RTNDA on a number of occasions over the years.

7525             The Jim Pattison Broadcast Group knows how important it is to provide local and regional reflection.  We have local management in place at all of our stations who make local decisions in the best interests of the station and the community.  All of our stations' on‑air news and information personnel have a major commitment to provide local live reflections in these markets, as opposed to networking from a larger centre.

7526             Our mandate is to ensure that our best practices for the marketplace is that of local programming, staffed by live personnel.

7527             We believe, consistent with the Commission's criteria, that a new station for Saskatoon must:

1) provide a new music format choice to the market;

2) have strong Canadian Talent Development initiatives and other tangible benefits that contribute in a material way to the Canadian Broadcast System;

3) be based on a solid realistic business plan and have the financial resources of a strong owner to ensure commitments are met over a seven‑year licence term and beyond;

4) have minimal impact on existing players; and

5) be of benefit to the local community.

7528             I would like to take a few minutes to make the Commission more familiar with the applicant.  The Pattison Broadcast Group is a privately held company, the controlling shareholder of which is Mr. Jim Pattison.  The Jim Pattison Group is involved in multiple lines of businesses primarily in Canada and the United States, with several of its divisions operating in other countries around the world.

7529             The Jim Pattison Group is very involved in a variety of business ventures in Saskatoon and throughout Saskatchewan, including the Pattison Sign Group, the Pattison Outdoor Group, plus the Pattison News Group and Associated Grocers.

7530             Mr. Pattison is a western Canadian success story and a native son of Saskatchewan.  Born at the General Hospital in Saskatoon, Mr. Pattison spent his formative years in Luseland, Saskatchewan.  He returned to the province every summer as a young adult to work on the family farm, and eventually getting married in Moose Jaw.  His links to the province remain strong, and Mr. Pattison is strongly supportive of our broadcast group's expansion into Saskatchewan.

7531             Mr. Pattison's interest in broadcast started with the acquisition in 1965 of CJOR‑AM, now CKBD‑AM, in Vancouver.  He has owned that radio station for 41 years.  His commitment to the radio industry is strong and long‑standing.  Over the last ten years our company has worked with approvals of the Commission to build a successful western Canadian regional based radio company.  Our experience in other western Canadian markets will assist us in making our Saskatoon station a success if licensed.

7532             Our individual operations contribute to the betterment of life in our communities through a wide and varied number of station initiated and local campaigns.  For examples, our Toys for Tots program in Lethbridge that has gathered more than 1 and a half million dollars worth of toys and gifts over the past ten years for disadvantaged families in conjunction with the Lethbridge Salvation Army.  The Medicine Hat Help Foundation raises more than $400,000 annually through our CHAT‑TV's telethon.  Another example is our annual Basics For Babies campaign in Vancouver that has raised over $1 million in cash and countless tons of baby products over 13 years.

7533             Collectively, the Pattison Broadcast Group commits in excess of over $10 million annually in sponsorship and airtime toward charitable public and community service airtime.  Should our application be successful in Saskatoon, that same spirit of community would guide our new station.  We guarantee that our promotion of community events, fundraisers and in kind advertising of community events would exceed $500,000 annually for our licensed term.

7534             I will now turn to Gerry Siemens to highlight elements of our proposal.

7535             MR. SIEMENS:  As the Commission is aware, Saskatoon is presently served by nine radio signals, including six commercial operations with only two owners.  The existing licensees cover a reasonably wide range of musical genres.  What our research has demonstrated is that there is a significant gap in programming to the more mature listener between the ages of 45 and 64.  This despite the fact that as of the end of 2005, the bulk of the population in North America is now between 50 and 74 years of age.

7536             This demographic is a dominant force in the Saskatoon market.  The Pattison Broadcast Group will build a station that will focus on the mature 45 to 64‑year‑old adult.  The more mature adults are clearly a desirable audience, not adequately served by any FM station in the Saskatoon market.  This goal will be achieved without duplicated music currently being aired on any Saskatoon FM station.

7537             Unique to our Saskatoon soft AC/soft vocals market will be an emphasis on Canadian artists performing format compatible songs.  Artists such a Michael Buble, Meagan Fanning, Armi Grano, Diana Krall, Angela Kelman, Tammy Weiss, Carol Welsman, Holly Cole and many others are among the many Canadian acts that have recorded music compatible with the soft AC format.  Most of the songs by these artists are standards with a jazz tinge, and these selections are not receiving air play anywhere else on the dial in Saskatoon.

7538             The Bee will be a music intensive station that will operate as a group 2 licence in the gold based soft AC format with a particular emphasis on the soft vocal hits of the '60s and '70s.  The Bee will air a number of special programs that will provide our listeners with a full range of music that the soft AC format includes.

7539             Some examples are:  Initial Public Offering, Border Crossings, Saska‑tunes, The Brunch Bunch, North of 49, and Love Songs and Other Lies, all of which are described in our written application.

7540             While our emphasis will be on music, we will also provide a full range of information features for our audience.  It's our experience that in a small city the sense of community is heighten, and we will respond with news and information programming that will accurately reflect the lives of our listeners in Saskatoon.  Our commitment of eight hours and ten minutes of weekly news coverage is substantially more than any of the other competing applicants.  Plus that content will be greatly enhanced by our daily 30‑minute current events program BEE‑in Touch, as well as BEE‑in Touch the weekend edition.

7541             The remainder of our spoken word coverage is set out in our supplementary brief materials.  We also have a commitment to local surveillance materials of three hours and 30 minutes per week.

7542             The more mature demographic is a huge supporter of the arts, and the Bee will have, as an integral part of our schedule, much needed coverage of arts and culture in the City of Saskatoon.  Our application incorporates three spoken word features, BEE‑On The Street, Arts and Stuff, and Into the Arts, which are designed to highlight concert information, gallery and theatre openings and other cultural events of interest to the community.

7543             In total, our spoken word commitment will be 24 hours a week not including announcer dialogue.  We have attached a complete broadcast schedule to our application, and that same schedule is attached to our oral presentation distributed this evening.

7544             I will turn it back to Rick to speak to our Canadian Talent Initiatives.

7545             MR. ARNISH:  Thank you, Gerry.

7546             The Jim Pattison Broadcast Group commits $1 million in direct expense and tangible benefits that will support Canadian talent initiatives over the course of a seven‑year licence term.  These benefits include $350,000 for the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group's exciting new initiative the Save the Music Foundation, designed to restore, maintain, enhance and improve music programs throughout Saskatchewan.

7547             We believe that to develop Canadian talent we must, as broadcasters, expand beyond only assisting professional and semi‑professional musicians.  The Save the Music initiative is based on a firmly held belief that development of Canadian talent must begin with our youth.

7548             The other initiatives that we have put forward include:

‑ $210,000 for the Saskatchewan Recording Industry Association to be used for improving the music industry infrastructure in the province;

‑ another $210,000 for the Pattison Group's new Festival Fund;

‑ $90,000 for FACTOR; and

‑ $140,000 for two annual scholarships exclusively for Aboriginal persons to the Western Academy Broadcast Colleges' outstanding advance journalism course.

7549             There has been some discussion this week about Saskatoon's ability to support a new licence.  The Pattison Broadcast Group has expressed concerns to the Commission previously about the hazards of overlicensing, and we do stand by those concerns.  However, the Pattison Broadcast Group operates in a number of markets where there are more stations per capita than presently exist in Saskatoon.  In fact, the City of Kamloops, with a population of 85,000, now has five radio stations.  The City of Red Deer, with a population of 70,000, has four radio stations.  And when our new competitor gets on the air in Lethbridge in the near future, that market of only 75,000 will host six commercial radio stations.

7550             We don't believe that a city that will soon hit a quarter of a million people will have any problem supporting a seventh commercial radio station.

7551             Further, with real domestic growth of 5.1 percent in 2005, and with construction starts 22 percent ahead of last year in the first eight months of this year, it's obvious that the market is healthy and headed for significant prosperity in the coming years.

7552             Finally, a number of interveners expressed concern that the level of community service in Saskatoon will be compromised should a new licence be granted.  With the Pattison Broadcast Group's commitment to news, current events and community service being more significant than any of the other applicants', combined with a province ‑‑ promise, pardon me, of a minimum of $500,000 in community service air time every year during our licence term, community service will only be enhanced with the approval of our application.

7553             Madam Chair and members of the Commission, you have a tight agenda this week and we promised we would be brief.  Our written application fully details our proposal for Saskatoon.  We appreciate the opportunity to appear before you this evening in Regina and look forward to any questions you may have of our application.

7554             Thank you.

7555             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Commissioner Cugini ...?

7556             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you, Madam Chair, Mr. Arnish, and to your team welcome.

7557             And as they say, welcome to the home stretch in particular.  Hopefully this won't ‑‑ I'll try to make this as painless as possible.  And just so you know, it's not in the interest of the lateness of the day, but rather due to the fact that your application was quite complete you may be pleasantly surprised at how few questions I have, but I do have questions, so I'm going to start with the spoken word commitment.

7558             In your application you say that it will be 125 hours a week of local programming, and the one hour exception is the Fred and Gerry Home Improvement Show, which will be produced in Vancouver; is that correct?

7559             MR. ARNISH:  That is correct, yes.

7560             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And you've also committed to no voice tracking?

7561             MR. ARNISH:  That is correct as well, yes.

7562             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Now, your eight hours and ten minutes of news, you say 75 percent of that will be local.  I assume, therefore, that 25 percent will either be national and/or international news?

7563             MR. ARNISH:  Yes, that is correct.  Regional, national and international.

7564             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So like the Fred and Gerry Show from Vancouver, will the Vancouver station supply any of that portion to make up that 25 percent of non‑local news?

7565             MR. ARNISH:  No.  You know, we, in our group, firmly believe in having local news girls in all of our stations and all of our markets that we're in, from Vancouver to Kamloops, Prince George to Cranbrook, to the smallest communities that we have licences in, which are Rocky Mountain House and Drayton Valley in Alberta.  Both of those markets, there's four or 5,000 people that we serve in those markets, but we ‑‑ we don't have a big newsroom, but we have a one‑person newsroom that gathers news and information for those particular markets as well.

7566             I think the only sharing of news that we would certainly share with the station in Saskatoon or the station in Saskatoon may share with Vancouver, for example, if there was something of major consequence going on in the Province of Saskatchewan, or in Saskatoon, or something that was relevant that was happening in British Columbia or Vancouver that would be relevant to the listeners here in Saskatoon.  So we don't have a central hub for news in our broadcast group, each station is a stand‑alone station in that particular area.

7567             MR. SIEMENS:  If I could just add, Commissioner Cugini, we have just found it to be our best practice to be approximately 75 percent local.  Our research clearly states that not only do the older demographic in Saskatoon support the format, but they also have a keen interest in what's going on in their community.  So we just think that that's our best practice, is approximately 75 percent local, and you have about 15 percent regional, provincial, if you will, and about 10 percent national, international.

7568             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Which, as you mentioned, will be produced at the station in Saskatoon?

7569             MR. ARNISH:  Yes.

7570             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And you indicate in your application that you plan on hiring 25 staff people for this station, so how many of those people will be dedicated to news?

7571             MR. ARNISH:  I'll turn that over to Gerry and we can give you a complete breakdown of the staffing levels of our proposed station.

7572             Gerry ...?

7573             MR. SIEMENS:  Commissioner Cugini, the newsroom will be staffed by a full‑time news director, who will most likely double as a morning news reader.  There will be two full‑time news people.  There will be a part‑time news person and a full‑time producer for the current event ‑‑ current affairs program In Touch.

7574             So a total of five people plus a half‑time person to report on the arts scene in Saskatoon.  And from experience we had a similar commitment at another station, and I know that that number works.  They're busy, but they can get it done.

7575             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And who will be ultimately responsible for the editorial content of the news?

7576             MR. ARNISH:  The news director certainly would for news content.  Obviously the general manager of the station would have input into the editorial comment as well.

7577             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

7578             And are the rest, therefore, allocated to programming of those 25 staff?

7579             MR. SIEMENS:  I'm sorry?

7580             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  The balance of the 25 staff members, will they be allocated to programming?

7581             MR. SIEMENS:  No.  Some of the other staffing levels include a program director and music director, which will be one person, a morning show host, plus a morning show co‑host.  We've allowed for two full‑time announcers, four part‑time announcers, one copy writer and a full producer.  There will be a technical director, a promotions director, a sales manager, a sales assistant, eight account executives, a general manager and a general manager assistant/traffic manager.

7582             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So therefore you don't see any other synergies with any of your other stations, other than this Fred and Gerry Home Improvement Show?

7583             MR. ARNISH:  No, we ‑‑ we have a policy in our group that we like to make the stations independent in the markets that they're licensed to serve.  I'm a big believer in the fact that the management and the personnel of our radio and television stations in all of our markets know what's going on in their markets, rather than perhaps a head office.

7584             I know other groups don't necessarily agree with that philosophy, but we found that has worked very well for all of our stations in the Pattison Broadcast Group.

7585             The only synergies, in answer to your question, that may happen, is some accounting functions that perhaps would be done in Kamloops or would be done with our accounting office in Medicine Hat, but they're very, very minor in nature.  The station in Saskatoon, the management and the team, would be responsible for all the day‑to‑day and weekly activities in Saskatoon.

7586             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

7587             We will now move on to Canadian Talent Development.  You're committed to a $1 million expenditure for CTD and I'll go through the details of that in a moment.  But I did notice in your application that in response to question 7.2 you marked off that yes, you would be participating in the CAB CTD plan, which for the size of Saskatoon means $3,000 a year.

7588             MR. SIEMENS:  That is correct.

7589             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  But I didn't find that anywhere.  I didn't find that $21,000 anywhere in your financial projections.

7590             MR. SIEMENS:  Yes, Commissioner Cugini, but we did answer that in one of the deficiency letters where we were asked where that money would go, and we indicated that that would go to the Saskatchewan Recording Industry Association, and it would be in addition to the $1 million.

7591             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So is your total CTD commitment a million and 21,000, or is it $1 million?

7592             MR. SIEMENS:  It would be a million and 21,000.

7593             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  A million and 21, and you'll accept that as a condition of licence?

7594             MR. ARNISH:  Yes, we would.

7595             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And that those payments will be made over seven consecutive years?

7596             MR. ARNISH:  That is correct, yes.

7597             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

7598             The $50,000 a year that you have earmarked for Save the Music Foundation, your application does say that the funds would be used to purchase musical instruments, mentor programs for music educators, support student travel to various music events, as well as provide bursaries and scholarships.  Have I got that right?

7599             MR. ARNISH:  Yes, you did.  Absolutely.  Right on.

7600             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  At the Edmonton hearing you mentioned you were in the process of registering it as a foundation.  Could you tell us, have you accomplished this as of yet?

7601             MR. ARNISH:  We're still in the process of doing that.  We just received Commission approval with Island Radio acquisition here just two or three months ago, where some of the funding for the Save the Music Foundation, to get it up and running, will come through that acquisition.  We're just in the process now of setting up the parameters to register as a foundation, putting together our Board of Directors, because, as you're perhaps aware, the Commission is certainly aware, we're working very closely with the Canadian Rocky Mountain Music Festival that we became a major sponsor of this past year, where we gave them $30,000 in cash to become a major sponsor of that great event in Banff.

7602             Every summer they have four or 5,000 students that come and assemble there, and they determine who is the best of the best at the end of the competition.  It's a great learning experience and a great bonding for Canada's young musicians to get together.  And with the Board of Directors, we will have members from our broadcast group, and also members of the Canadian Rocky Mountain Music Festival, and we will make up that Board.  And when all that information is put to bed, and it's registered, we will certainly send that information to the Commission so they have it on the public record.

7603             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you have an estimate of when you might be in a position to complete the registering of the foundation?  We won't hold you to it, but just so we have an idea.

7604             MR. ARNISH:  I think in the next 90 days.

7605             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  In the next 90 days, okay.  Do you have a cost breakdown of how that annual $50,000 a year will be expended?

7606             MR. ARNISH:  No, we don't at this point in time.  The monies that we want to put into the Save the Music Foundation for the Province of Saskatchewan is not unlike any of the other monies that will be coming forward from other approvals from the Commission, if we are so fortunate enough to receive them.  Through the Board of Directors, school districts, music educators, will be able to apply for funding.  The Board of Directors will look at that funding and will dispense that funding as they best see fit.  We want to make sure that this money goes to the right group, the right organization, and it's money well spent.  And again, as we have stated at other public hearings, at the end of the broadcast year when we file our annual returns, we will certainly make sure that all of the money is allocated and accounted for and makes up part of our annual returns to the Commission.

7607             MR. SIEMENS:  And if I may say, if you're asking are there costs inherent with that, the $50,000 that goes into the Foundation goes right back out.  There are no handling costs.

7608             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I'm sorry, I didn't hear that last bit?

7609             MR. SIEMENS:  If you're asking does the $50,000 that will go into the Foundation will be dispensed to the organizations that deserve it, there are no handling costs for the money.  There's nothing staying back.

7610             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay, thank you.

7611             MR. ARNISH:  And if I could just add a point too.  This is new.  This whole foundation is new.  It's new to us and it's new as a Canadian Talent Development initiative, and we're ‑‑ it's new to the music educators in British Columbia and Alberta, and hopefully in Saskatchewan as well.

7612             So we have to ‑‑ we have to work with them and we have to educate them too, and we're going to be educated as well how best we can spend this money to ensure that we're getting the best bang for the dollar.

7613             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

7614             And I guess this goes to the CTD plus plus category.  You mentioned today or this evening in your oral presentation the promise of a minimum of $500,000 in community service airtime.  Do you mean this to be the availability of air times for PSAs and such?

7615             MR. ARNISH:  Yes.  We're very proud.  As other broadcast groups and other broadcasters do as well, if we're licensed by you, the Commission, we take the trust of the public and the licence that we receive very seriously and we walk the talk.  We want to lead by example in all the communities that we are licensed in.  And on an annual basis, the entire Pattison Broadcast Group of radio and television stations donate over $10 million in sponsorships and public service time, gifts in kind, you know, even some of our television stations for a very worthwhile charitable organization in some of the communities will even produce a corporate video for them free of charge because we think that's a good thing to do because they haven't got the resources to do that.

7616             We want to take that same spirit, as I talked in my opening comments, to Saskatoon.  And we're making this commitment of a half a million dollars as a minimum to help support great worthwhile causes in the City of Saskatoon and the Saskatoon region as well.

7617             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

7618             You also mention in your application an additional financial commitment of $120,000 over the licence term to support an employment equity initiative.  And I know that doesn't form part of CTD, but it does fall outside of the relevant factors used in the evaluation of competitive radio applications.  So, firstly, can you tell me what is this employment equity initiative that you are involved in?

7619             MR. ARNISH:  I'm going to have Mr. Siemens speak to that, but just briefly, again, employment equity is very important to us as well as a broadcast group.  We certainly have to follow the Employment Equity Act, just like any other federally regulated company, and we believe with some of the initiatives that we have brought forward to the Commission, and the ones we're talking about here for Saskatoon, will help us and help other broadcasting companies to be able to employ people from the four designated groups.

7620             Gerry ...?

7621             MR. SIEMENS:  Thank you, Rick.

7622             Employment equity we think is ‑‑ is clearly something that should be identified as a desirable effect of having a new licence enter a market, and it's for that reason that we have committed that 50 percent of our new hires will be from the four designated groups.  We think that's an important fact going into a new market.

7623             It's a great opportunity to lower the barriers of entry to the members of the four designated groups, and I think it's particularly helpful in Saskatoon with the unique make‑up of that city.

7624             The $140,000 for the two annual scholarships is exclusively for Aboriginal persons.  The scholarships will be to the Western Academy Broadcast College that have a very, very good journalism course.  All inclusive it's eight months in duration, there's 1,070 hours of instruction and the graduates that come out of that program are ready to go to work.

7625             We are looking forward to working with the college on that, and more than that, we view these scholarships as being exclusively for Aboriginal persons as a unique opportunity to bring these students right into the radio station where they can work as interns, where they can learn their craft hands on, and also assist us with the production of our Sunday morning program Talking Rocks, our weekly two‑hour weekend program which is going to focus on the issues of Saskatchewan's Aboriginal persons.

7626             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  If the Commission were to decide that ‑‑ to impose a condition of licence requiring that this employment equity commitment be funded, would you accept that as a condition of licence?

7627             MR. ARNISH:  Absolutely.  Yes, we strongly believe in it.

7628             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I'm now going to move on to your format.  You define your format as soft AC and soft vocal musical selections.  Is this two separate genres that are going to be blended, or do you see this as one genre?

7629             MR. SIEMENS:  I think that when we decide to enter a market, the first thing that we do is have a look at what is the widest gap in the market.  To paraphrase, I think it was Yogi Berra, we plan to hit it where they ain't.  It makes to us little sense in a six‑station market to try to wedge a new station into a narrow format gap when there's a wide void in the market.

7630             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Speaking of music, we're just closing the door in the back for you.

7631             MR. SIEMENS:  Wait for the disco lights to go on and we will have a party.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7632             MR. SIEMENS:  To the point the existing FM stations we think do a good part, for the most part, of serving listeners that are under the age of 35 or 40, with the possible exception of the country station, which caters to a slightly older audience, but that is a specialized format and is not for everybody.

7633             But the demographics of the city show us that 25 percent of the population is between the ages of 45 and 60, and 42 percent are over the age of 45.  Our research clearly showed that these people have a want and a desire for a station that will satisfy that demographic.

7634             So what we've proposed is a soft AC, soft vocals hybrid format.  The foundation of it will be built on the soft AC of the '80s, but the secondary focus will be the soft vocals of the '60s and '70s.  This is the music of our listeners' youth.  These women grew up listening to the Carpenters, James Taylor, Dionne Warwick, Carly Simon, selected tracks from the Beetles and so on, so that's going to be the secondary focus of the radio station.  It is, in fact, a hybrid format, soft AC is the foundation, leaning towards the soft '60s and '70s.

7635             But if I can just continue for a second, I want to make a point that unfortunately in the '60s and '70s the Canadian music industry was still in it's infancy, and the availability of format appropriate Canadian music is quite limited in both quantity and quality.  So that's why we chose to leave our commitment at Canadian music at 35 percent because we understand the format and believe that that's the right number.

7636             But in that statement about the availability of Canadian music, we also find an opportunity, and that opportunity is to showcase new Canadian artists that are also recording format compatible modern versions of the soft vocal selections that our listeners will be familiar with.

7637             So that's artists such as Michael Buble, Tammy Weiss, Carol Welsman, I mentioned a whole bunch of others in the brief, and they are doing a lot of music that will be definitely format compatible with this radio station.

7638             The percentage of the format is roughly 35 percent from the '60s and '70s, 25 percent from the '80s, 15 percent from the '90s, and 25 percent will be Canadian music, largely from 2000 to 2008, by the time we get on the air.

7639             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Your target demo is 45 to 64.  Do you see this skewing female?

7640             MR. SIEMENS:  Definitely skewing female.  The research shows that it will be roughly a 60/40 split.

7641             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And the median age of your listener?

7642             MR. SIEMENS:  Well, 45 to 64, probably 52, 53.

7643             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  Standard Radio has applied for a similar format with a similar target demo.  Do you see similarities between your format and what was proposed by Standard?

7644             MR. SIEMENS:  I see some.  I think if I understood their presentation correctly that they are also ‑‑ their foundation will also be a soft AC of the '80s.

7645             If I further understood their presentation correctly they're calling it easily rock.  I think a point was made in their presentation that they'll lean towards more current music, and music with a slightly harder edge, whereas we're going to go the other way, and as I just said, focus on the '60s and '70s.  So similarities, yes, but not entirely duplicated.

7646             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you see any similarities between your format and CJMK in the market, which is an AC format?

7647             MR. SIEMENS:  Not a lot.  I was in Saskatoon for some time this spring.  I monitored them quite extensively and, of course, they do stream on‑line, so I can keep them on in my office.  I have a pretty good handle, I think, of where they're at.  They have a rather broad play list with more emphasis on pop and rock than on AC music, and in my opinion they're closer to a classic hits format than to a soft AC.

7648             Just today, while we have been monitoring them on and off, they have played artists like the Fine Young Cannibals, The Rolling Stones, Bachman‑Turner Overdrive, Bruce Springsteen, Nickelback, Steppenwolf, U2, Great Big Sea, Tommy Tutone.  None of those artists will be played on our radio station, and, in fact, that is pretty much a description, I believe, of a classic hits radio station.  So not a lot, no.  Maybe less than 10 percent duplication.

7649             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

7650             I'm going to move on to my last area of questioning, which is the economics.  While your application indicates that 20 percent of your advertising revenues in year one would come from existing stations, what is the potential of this format to attract new advertisers to radio relative to other formats?

7651             MR. ARNISH:  That's a great question, and we really questioned ourself on that too and I'm going to ask Mr. Davis to answer your question.  But we're very ‑‑ we certainly are very positive on the Saskatoon region and the Saskatoon market area, and we think we can repatriate a lot of advertising dollars back to radio that ‑‑ perhaps not being currently spent in the marketplace.

7652             Bruce ...?

7653             MR. DAVIS:  Thanks, Rick.

7654             We will go through the full 40 percent of new advertisers to the market if you'll bear with me on this.  We estimate initially that 40 percent of the revenue will come from new businesses that currently aren't advertising on radio now, or that are on other media.  There is going to be a number of businesses that are going to be new to the city, just because of the opportunities provided by a robust economy, and they're going to need to advertise.  The influx of competitors force businesses that didn't feel the need to advertise before to start advertising, just to protect their market share.  And the rest of the 40 percent will include advertisers that were using other media, like newspaper, outdoor, direct mail or transit, that now have a radio station that specifically targets their core customers.

7655             We talked to a lot of these potential clients when we were doing our due diligence.  These categories include luxury automobiles, boats, RVs, high end travel, cruises, health and wellness, investment, financial planning, high end real estate, upscale clothing stores, condos.  All businesses that are looking at advertising to a mature, well heeled audience that have a lot of disposable income and they're spending the money.

7656             We have got quite a bit of experience with this demo ‑‑ with this demo of consumers in Vancouver at AM600 and in our older talk station in Kelowna.  And we're absolutely convinced there's a lot of untapped revenue in Saskatoon that's just looking for the right vehicle to advertise on, and that's us.

7657             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Now, obviously this 40 percent was one of the factors that you took into consideration in evaluating whether or not to enter this market.  What are some of the other factors that you evaluated as a team in deciding that this was a valuable market to try to get into?  And it goes, of course, to the profitability ‑‑ to the feasibility of another commercial station surviving in this market.

7658             MR. DAVIS:  Sure, we cover all that off too.  The health of the retail sector was the ‑‑ what really gave us the interest in this market.  Retail sales is the lifeblood of any radio station.  80 percent of our revenue come from retail clients.  A strong vital retail sales sector means a strong vital radio market.

7659             Retail sales numbers in Saskatoon are very encouraging.  The National Post market survey pegs retail sales in Saskatoon at $2.4 billion right now, and project this number to grow 9 percent to $2.6 billion by 2008.  This clearly shows the confidence that the retail sector has in the economy.  The Post also calculates that 4 percent of retail sales are allocated to advertising, and this number alone is $104 million.  This is a big number.

7660             The other thing that we looked at that was a very encouraging sign to us, was the healthy residential construction market.  A strong housing market drives a ton of retail.  When people are buying new homes they spend serious dollars on high ticket items, like furniture, appliances, floor coverings, window coverings.  When you move into a house the list is endless.  These retailers are all heavy radio users.

7661             In Saskatoon new housing starts are up 33 percent in 2006.  This is a very, very healthy market.  The real GDP, when we were here, is 5 percent.  Consumer spending grew last year by 15.4 percent.  The population is growing.  That's what interests us in Saskatoon.

7662             Did that answer your question, I'm sorry?

7663             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Mr. Arnish ...?

7664             MR. ARNISH:  If I can just add to that.  When we came in and did our due diligence and really looked at the market and talked to the business sector and the Chambers of Commerce and the business associations, we thought, yes, Saskatoon is a great city and it would be a great city for us to be able to extend our regional presence in western Canada, because we're like everyone else, we certainly want to grow.

7665             But it's interesting to note that since we were here just a few short months ago, that there's been more and more positive information coming out about the entire Province of Saskatchewan.

7666             Jimmy Pattison is certainly very bullish himself on the province, and we have other companies in the Pattison group that are looking at establishing a presence in Saskatoon, for example.  And Jimmy does feel, and he's certainly in touch with world leaders and knows definitely what's going on with the world economy, but he feels that Saskatchewan, like Alberta and British Columbia, is going to take the lead in the coming years.

7667             You know, Bruce talked about some of the other activities in Saskatoon, the economic news report from the Saskatchewan regional economic and cooperative development office on October the 20th stating that the house building activity in Saskatoon continues to increase.  For the month of September Saskatoon saw 92 single family houses started, 56 in the city and 36 in the surrounding communities, up from 53 in September of '05.  59 family ‑‑ multi‑family units were started the same month, compared to 37 in September last year.

7668             And I know the Chair mentioned earlier this morning, and we knew this as well, that Maple Leaf Foods has announced that they're going to be closing their slaughter house here in Saskatoon within three years, affecting approximately 450 people, but on the other hand, you've got Colliers International latest survey concluding that industrial property in Saskatoon is in demand.  The commercial real estate brokerage stated that in the first part of 2006 a number of million dollar building and land parcel deals took place in the north industrial service area.  The Hudson Bay Company junior department store chain Fields just opened their brand new store in Saskatoon just a couple of days ago.  And some exciting news for the region as well, and very high paying jobs, the addition of 160 new employees, including registered nurses, support staff and other health care professionals, has been announced by the Saskatoon Health Region.

7669             So the economy in Saskatoon, and the economy in Saskatchewan, is certainly starting to catch on fire.  And when we did our due diligence, when we looked at applying for Fort McMurray and we decided at the end of the day that we weren't going to apply in Fort McMurray, but Bruce and Gerry and I were there for a number of days, again doing our due diligence, we went to the interpretive centre for the Oil Sands in Fort McMurray, and I don't know if you've ever been there, but it was a real eye opener for us for the first time.

7670             But we were pleasantly surprised and really surprised to see in that interpretive centre that the Oil Sands potential in northwest Saskatchewan could be as big or larger than what is going on in the Fort McMurray area.

7671             So when you've got diamond mines, you've got uranium, potash, agriculture, retail, you've got this potential with new oil and natural gas drilling taking place, Saskatoon could certainly be the hub for the central north area of Saskatchewan.  So we think Saskatoon has a great future.

7672             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You're now forcing me to ask whether or not we can license more than one?

7673             MR. ARNISH:  Great question.  We knew it was coming.  I guess before I answer that, I'm a little surprised about the pBIT ratio, and I think all of us in our panel are, and others in the room have expressed that as well.  We have two great ‑‑ there's two great radio companies in Saskatoon, as there are in Regina and throughout Saskatchewan, but both the incumbents have three radio stations each.  There's six distinct formats in the marketplace.  We believe, as you've read in our application, that the market is probably somewhere around the 17 and a half, $18 million mark.  A quick subdivision tells you that if you divide it up and the six stations are bringing in $3 million each, we're surprised the pBIT ratio is as low as it is.  We think it should be way up there near the national average.

7674             In answer to your question, we think that ‑‑ we built our business plan on Saskatoon only being able to support one entry for a new commercial radio station.  We do think though that if the Commission thought it was a good idea through their business plan to license the Christian station or the Aboriginal Voices Radio station, that wouldn't have impact on our format.

7675             We think if we're fortunate enough for the Commission to license us with our format, we're going to be a stand‑alone FM station against two formidable competitors with three stations each.  We know it's going to be a tough battle, but I was told at a hearing here not too long ago from Commissioner Langford, I've got broad shoulders and we've got broad shoulders in our group.

7676             So we do have the broad shoulders and we have the wherewithal to, you know, make sure that our station is launched professionally, that the business plan is executed, and at the end of the day, and it may take us five to seven years to break even or to get profitable, but our owner and ourselves are in this for the long haul, and we would sure like to be in Saskatoon and have our very first radio licence in the Province of Saskatchewan.

7677             We're proud of our owner, he's from Luseland and his wife is from Saskatchewan, and we want to be here.

7678             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Mr. Arnish, thank you.  Thank you to your team.

7679             Madam Chair, those are all my questions.

7680             THE CHAIRPERSON:  It appears there's no other ‑‑ oh, no, no, no, you're not going to get away with that.  There is the Fred and Gerry Show that is not produced ‑‑ would not be produced in Saskatchewan.  Will you agree to a COL that you're live to air, including live ‑‑ including taped programming produced in Saskatoon for 125 hours of the broadcast week?

7681             MR. ARNISH:  Yes, we would.

7682             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

7683             I bet you were surprised by that.  And I don't think I have any other questions.  So now you have your two minutes, Mr. Arnish...?

7684             MR. ARNISH:  Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the Commission for this opportunity to summarize the strengths of our application.

7685             First, our station will add a new and distinctive format to the Saskatoon radio market.  The new BEE‑FM would correct the demographic imbalance of the Saskatoon market by targeting the mature listener in the 45 to 64 year old and 45 plus demographic.  Further, we would accomplish that goal without duplicating music currently being exposed by any Saskatoon station.

7686             Second, the new BEE‑FM will provide a platform for a wider range of Canadian artists whose music is not being heard on Saskatoon radio.

7687             Third, the application by the Pattison Broadcast Group includes a comprehensive package of tangible benefits that totals $1 million in direct expenses.  The Canadian Talent initiatives are well thought out and are designed to have an immediate and positive effect in Saskatchewan.

7688             Fourth, the application by the Pattison Broadcast Group includes a significant commitment to news and spoken word content.  We have a promise of a minimum of eight hours and ten minutes of news and sports coverage weekly.  The commitment to news will be enhanced by BEE‑in Touch and Talking Rocks, the two‑hour Sunday program on Aboriginal issues.  The total commitment to spoken word programming is 24 hours per week, not including announcer dialogue.

7689             Fifth, approval of this application will result in the creation of at least 25 new jobs in the broadcast industry.

7690             Six, the Saskatoon economy, as you just heard me say, is healthy, poised for growth and can support another FM station.

7691             Seven, licensing a new station to the Pattison Broadcast Group will strengthen one of the very few multi‑station broadcasting companies based in western Canada.  Expansion into Saskatchewan is the next logical step for the Pattison Broadcast Group.  Plus licensing an independent applicant in Saskatoon will introduce a new editorial voice into a market where all six commercial radio stations are owned by only two owners.

7692             The two experienced successful radio broadcasters with three stations each in Saskatoon, will be able to effectively compete with a new stand‑alone FM.

7693             The last one, number eight, the new BEE‑FM will provide a new emphasis on and exposure for the arts scene in Saskatoon.  Our half‑time arts and culture editor will provide coverage of the arts and culture scene in the city with news, reviews and other information on gallery openings, new theatre offerings, as well as upcoming concerts.

7694             In conclusion, the Pattison Broadcast Group understands and thrives on radio and smaller markets.  With the exception of our two stations in Vancouver, all of the Pattison licences are in smaller markets throughout Alberta and British Columbia.  We are thoroughly familiar with the special relationship between the radio station and the community in those smaller markets.  We embrace the extra level of civic service required, and that will allow us to provide a level of service to the community that will be second to none.

7695             Our company is based in western Canada with a strong contingent of stations throughout Alberta and British Columbia.  We have a strong connection to the social, political and economic life in western Canada.  Our shareholder has strong roots in Saskatoon, and Mr. Pattison is committed to the successful launch of our station.

7696             As I said in our opening comments, our company has been in the broadcasting industry for 40 plus years.  Our shareholder is committed to staying in the radio business and to finding opportunities for growth.

7697             We sincerely hope you will grant us the opportunity to hold our first licence in Saskatchewan and serve the great city and citizens of Saskatoon.

7698             On that note, we will not be appearing in Phase III and Phase IV, we wish to thank you very much for this opportunity to appear before you tonight here in Regina, and wish you well with your deliberations.

7699             Thank you very much.

7700             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Arnish.

7701             Are you appearing in Phase II?

7702             MR. ARNISH:  No, we're not.

7703             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, because you said III and IV.

7704             MR. ARNISH:  Sorry, I should have said II, III and IV.

7705             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

7706             We will now proceed to Phase II.  Madam secretary ...?

7707             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

7708             The following applicants have indicated that they will not appear in Phase II:  Newcap Inc., Harvard Broadcasting, Standard Radio, Touch Canada Broadcasting, Radio CJVR and Jim Pattison Broadcasting Group just said so.  Therefore, I would now call on the Aboriginal Voices Radio, if they wish to come forward to proceed in Phase II.

7709             And I gather they're not in the room.

7710             Therefore, the last applicant would be Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting if they are in the room.

7711             I understand they will not be appearing, therefore this concludes Phase II of the process, Madam Chair.

7712             Thank you.

7713             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

7714             We will adjourn, and 8:30 tomorrow morning.  No earlier, don't worry.

‑‑‑ Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1925,

    to resume on Friday, November 3, 2006 at 0830

    / L'audience est ajournée à 1925,

    pour reprendre le vendredi

    3 novembre 2006 à 0830

 

 

REPORTERS

 

 

                         per

Lucille Derkach, C.S.R. and Shelley Fairbairn, C.S.R