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Prière de noter que la Loi sur les langues officielles exige que toutes publications gouvernementales soient disponibles dans les deux langues officielles.

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Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

              TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES AVANT

                CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

                          SUBJECT:

 

 

 

VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

 

Delta Regina                          Delta Regina

1919 Saskatchewan Drive               1919, promenade Saskatchewan

Regina, Saskatchewan                  Regina, Saskatchewan

 

November 1, 2006                      le 1 novembre 2006

 


 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.


               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

 

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

                 Transcript / Transcription

 

 

                             

              VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

            PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

                             

 

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Barbara Cram                      Chairperson / Présidente

Michel Arpin                      Vice-Chair, Broadcasting / Vice‑président, radiodiffusion

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Ronald Williams                   Commissioner / Conseiller

Joan Pennefather                  Commissioner / Conseillère

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Chantal Boulet                    Secretary / Secrétaire

Leanne Bennett                    Legal Counsel /

Conseillère juridique

Lyne Cape                         Hearing Manager /

Gérante de l'audience

 

 

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

 

Delta Regina                      Delta Regina

1919 Saskatchewan Drive           1919, promenade Saskatchewan

Regina, Saskatchewan              Regina, Saskatchewan

 

November 1, 2006                  le 1 novembre 2006


                           - iv -

 

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

REGINA - PHASE I

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc. (AVR)                764 / 3743

 

Natotawin Broadcasting Inc.                       857 / 4245

 

 

 

REGINA - PHASE II

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

(no appearances)

 

 

REGINA - PHASE III

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

Rawlco Radio Ltd.                                 915 / 4596

 

Communications Management Inc.                    927 / 4655

 

Hospitals of Regina Foundations Inc.              971 / 4889

 

Paul Martin Communications                        975 / 4913

 

Neil Meckelborg                                   987 / 4979

 

MapleMusic & Open Road Recordings                 998 / 5034

 

The Good Brothers                                1003 / 5057

 

The Poverty Plainsmen                            1005 / 5067

 

Birdsong Communications                          1007 / 5074

 

Jennifer Jade Kerr                               1021 / 5149

 

Zbitnew and Associates                           1030 / 5186

 

Lighthouse To All Nations                        1036 / 5208

 

Shelan Schnell                                   1042 / 5231

 

Regina Evangelical Ministerial Association       1046 / 5248

 

Harvard Broadcasting Inc.                        1052 / 5277


                           - v -

 

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

REGINA - PHASE IV

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc.                     1067 / 5368

 

Radio CJVR Ltd.                                  1068 / 5374

 

Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc.                   1069 / 5381

 

Standard Radio Inc.                              1073 / 5403

 

Newcap Inc.                                      1082 / 5459

 

 

 

SASKATOON - PHASE I

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

Newcap Inc.                                      1090 / 5494


         Regina, Saskatchewan / Regina (Saskatchewan)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Wednesday, November 1, 2006

    at 0830 / L'audience débute le mercredi

    1 novembre 2006 à 0830

3735             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.

3736             Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.  Today of course is day one of Gainer‑Gate.  Gainer has been punted from McMahon Stadium.  The province is in shock and awe.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

3737             THE CHAIRPERSON:  As you know, of course ‑‑ and I'll give you non‑CFL speak ‑‑ the Roughriders' mascot, Gainer the Gopher has been expelled for the play‑off game this weekend.  The province is just aghast.

3738             Nonetheless, I'll pass it over to Madam Secretary.

3739             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

3740             Good morning everyone.  We will now proceed with item 15 on the agenda which is an application by Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc., AVR, for a licence to operate an English and Aboriginal‑language Native type B FM radio undertaking in Regina.

3741             The new station would operate on frequency 96.1 megahertz, channel 241C, with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts, non‑directional antenna, antenna height of 146.2 metres.

3742             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Lewis Cardinal who will introduce his colleagues.  You will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.  Please go ahead ‑‑ Mr. Hill will introduce his colleagues.  My apologies.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

3743             MR. HILL:  Thank you.

3744             I'd like to say good morning to everyone.  It's very nice to be here before you today.  Chair, Members of the Commission, Commission staff, colleagues and broadcasters and ladies and gentlemen, my name is Jamie Hill.  I'm the president of the Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc.

3745             We are particularly excited about your appearance before the Commission today in support of our application for a new radio service for the historic city of Regina.  I would like to now introduce to you the members of the AVR team.

3746             On your far right is Lewis Cardinal, the vice president of AVR.  Lewis is an Aboriginal relations consultant to the City of Edmonton.  He is also the founder and president of the newly informed ‑‑ newly formed Indigenous Media Institute and the founder and co‑Chair of the Global Indigenous Dialogue.

3747             As well, Lewis is a recent recipient of the Alberta Centennial Medal for his work in diversity, multiculturalism, and human rights and is this year being honoured with the National Aboriginal Achievement Award for Community Service.

3748             Beside Lewis is J. Robert Wood, AVR's management consultant.  Bob has provided management consulting services for some of Canada's largest broadcasters from coast to coast.

3749             Prior to that, he spent 17 years in the CHUM Group as national program director and manager of CHUM and CHUM‑FM.  He led the CHUM team in the establishment of FACTOR and was one of the first broadcasters inducted into the Canadian Music Industry Hall of Fame.

3750             On my right is Roy Hennessy, AVR's general manager.  Roy has served as general manager of a number of Standard and Moffat stations in Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver.  He is a past president of FACTOR, has served on many industry boards and was recognized for his contribution to the broadcasting industry as a recipient of the first annual President's Award by the Ontario Association of Broadcasters.

3751             Beside Roy is Patrice Mosseau, AVR's program director and on‑air host.  Patrice has served on FACTOR selection committees and is a member of Canadian Women in Communications and is a multiple award recipient for her work in radio.

3752             Patrice is also very active in her community as vice president of the board for the Native Women's Resource Centre in Toronto.  She is a member of the Metis and Ojibwe Nations.

3753             And on your far left is Grant Buchanan of McCarthy Tetrault LLP, our legal counsel.

3754             As for myself, in addition to serving as president of AVR, I am a co‑founder of Knapp Media Inc.  We publish a magazine, the Smithsonian's National Museum of the American Indian.  The magazine is the most widely circulated Native magazine in the world.

3755             Previously I served as communications and information systems analyst for the chiefs of Ontario and worked as a director of economic development for the Ontario Federation of Indian Friendship Centres.

3756             We would like to acknowledge the Saulteaux, Cree and Assiniboine people in whose traditional territories we are gathered today.

3757             We also want to recognize the Metis people as well as the kind people of Regina.  We would like to thank all of them for the graciousness we have been afforded so far.

3758             I would now like to begin our formal presentation.  The board of directors of AVR and I, are of one mind, that the building of a national network of radio stations that brings together the hopes and dreams of Aboriginal people is a necessity.

3759             We know that the Commission has heard from AVR many times on this subject and that the Commission has granted AVR a licence on each occasion that it has been requested.

3760             We know you have agreed with AVR's vision in the past and we respectfully ask that you do so again here in Regina.

3761             We are in the midst of creating the first national Aboriginal radio network in the world.  The Canadian Broadcasting system has the resources to allow this to occur and the Broadcasting Act says that when that moment arrives, service should be extended.

3762             As you know, AVR has a unique profile.  It is a national service with a national network licence, but it has a much bigger role to fill as the plan is to offer local service in many Canadian urban centres.

3763             The national network acts as a badly needed bridge from one Aboriginal community to another and allows for discourse, healing and the exchange of stories and events between Aboriginal people across the country.

3764             It is essential that the Aboriginal community here in Regina join the other Aboriginal communities across Canada in the AVR solution.  Regina has an estimated population hovering around the 200,000 mark, of which Aboriginal people number close to 10 percent or 20,000.

3765             In the 2001 Statistics Canada Aboriginal people survey there were 9,880 North American Indians and 4,110 Metis people.  The current national trend of migration of Aboriginal people to urban areas is a fast rising ‑‑ and a fast rising birth rate dictates an expected population surge in Regina now and in the future with some demographers predicting up to 50 percent First Nations population in Saskatchewan within a few generations.

3766             MR. CARDINAL:  There are 12 radio stations on air in Regina and virtually no Aboriginal presence on any of then.  Our new AVR Regina station will dramatically increase the diversity of radio programming in the market by immediately introducing a radio service dedicated to reflecting the needs and interests of Regina's First Nations, Inuit, and Metis communities.  This new service will be a tremendous benefit to those community members and a real alternative.

3767             It is difficult for me to contemplate a national Aboriginal service like AVR without Regina in it.  Moreover, there is a significant pent up demand for the programming featured on AVR.

3768             A research report conducted for AVR by Peter Doering Consultants in November of 1999, that survey of Canadians revealed a number of compelling statistics.  Canadians from coast to coast overwhelmingly approve of an Aboriginal national radio service.

3769             Indeed, the respondents from the City of Regina were 90 percent in favour of the AVR network.  A very large percentage of those Regina respondents agreed the following goals were important for AVR to achieve.

3770             First goal, provide exposure and support appreciation for Aboriginal culture.  Ninety‑seven percent of Regina respondents agreed with that.  Increase understanding between Aboriginal and non‑Aboriginal Canadians, 92 percent agreed with that.  Help sensitive ‑‑ help sensitize the wider community regarding the interests and concerns of Aboriginal Canadians, 91 percent.  Encourage Aboriginal self‑sufficiency, 90 percent.

3771             AVR is concerned about the great possibility of many Aboriginal languages becoming extinct.  There are between 53 and 70 known Aboriginal languages, but many are only used by elders and will die with them.

3772             In addition to the promotion of Aboriginal Canadian languages in the English language portion of this schedule, AVR will, as it does in every other market, ensure that no less than 2 percent of all programming during the broadcast week be spoken word programming in an Aboriginal Canadian language and no less than 2 percent of all vocal musical selections played during each broadcast week in an Aboriginal Canadian language.

3773             I am pleased to advise the Commission that last month, Mr. Ron Ignace, the Chair of the task force in Aboriginal languages initiative joined AVR's board of directors where his expertise will be greatly appreciated and will be invaluable.

3774             The two Aboriginal language conditions of licence mentioned above, together with the requirement that a minimum of 25 percent of all programming be spoken word programming, including news, and a minimum of 35 percent of all musical selections from category 2 be Canadian selections, played in their entirety, have formed the backbone of the regulatory underpinning of AVR's many services.  AVR meets or exceeds all of these thresholds and will continue to do so.

3775             Chair and Members of the Commission, for a national Aboriginal service to be effective, it must be able to both send and receive programming of relevance from a variety of communities in Canada and not just from Toronto.

3776             So we believe strongly in local Aboriginal content.  Moreover, it is vital that the Aboriginal community be able to access the service as Aboriginal people constitute an impoverished subset of Canadian society, free over‑the‑air local radio will remain their primary source for many years to come.

3777             Finally, it is worth recalling that AVR features virtually 100 percent Aboriginal programming during the broadcast week.  Ours is not a cross‑subsidy model.  We are a truly Aboriginal service each and every broadcast day.

3778             I would like to ask Patrice to speak more about after the programming plans for AVR Regina.

3779             MS MOUSSEAU:  AVR radio service in Regina will offer a varied programming menu.  AVR's programming will reflect the Aboriginal Canadian experience.

3780             Newscasts, public affairs programs and open‑line talk shows will all address the needs, interests, and concerns of First Nations, Inuit, and Metis Canadians, particularly those who live in large urban centres like Regina, where the Aboriginal population is growing at a much greater rate than the population at large.

3781             The network programming schedule will include full Aboriginal news reports, national phone‑in programs, a women's round table discussion, focus programs on language, youth, elders, health, et cetera, as well as specialty music programs featuring artist profiles, traditional music, blues, jazz, country, et cetera.

3782             The new AVR service in Regina will feature more than 32 hours of ‑‑ a week of local programming.  The showcase will be the Regina morning show which will air Monday to Sunday 6 a.m. to 10 a.m.  Among other things, this locally produced program will feature a variety of interviews, surveillance reports, Aboriginal music and local banter.

3783             AVR will broadcast a number of newscasts which will aggregate more than three ‑‑ thirty ‑‑ sorry, three and a half hours per week.  New story selection will focus on ‑‑ on events which impact Canada's urban Aboriginal communities, and that have been overlooked and under‑reported by other news sources.

3784             Additional priority will be given to providing a venue for the expression of non‑mainstream viewpoints on current matters of the day.  Source material from newscasts will come from Internet‑based, free news services, materials provided through cooperative arrangements with other local and regional alternative news sources and network‑produced reports.  Original reportage will increase with the developing capacity of the news department.

3785             AVR also proposes to create a three‑minute feature to be called Community Calendar, to provide a schedule of performances and other events taking place in Regina and surrounding areas.  In addition, the Regina station will be responsible for creating local programming for inclusion in network programming dealing with artist profiles, interviews, talent development, and concert reviews, et cetera.

3786             As noted earlier, AVR also proposes the same condition of licence requiring 25 percent of the broadcast week to be comprised of spoken word programs as it is found elsewhere on AVR services throughout Canada.

3787             In addition to the local programming already discussed, AVR will feature a number of national spoken‑word programs that will become available to Regina listeners.

3788             While spoken word will be a significant component of the AVR Regina schedule, the station will also feature a mix of primarily Canadian and worldwide Aboriginal artists in a broad range of genres.  Program hosts will provide informed commentary on the artist presented, along with a variety of education ‑‑ educational and entertaining Aboriginal Canadian perspectives on issues of the day.

3789             The widespread national availability of the AVR radio service has already dramatically increased exposure to the work of Aboriginal Canadian artists.  Encouraging an increased awareness of Aboriginal culture, AVR will play a leading national role in the development and radio exposure of Native musical and spoken‑word talent.

3790             AVR has already begun the development of a national archive of Aboriginal Canadian artists.  Currently there are 70 ‑‑ 7,500 individual selections performed by 658 artists and groups.  The majority of the programming on AVR is drawn from this growing and important resource.

3791             AVR's conditions of licence across Canada require that at least 35 percent of the musical selections on AVR be Canadian.  AVR actually does much better than this, playing somewhere between 45 and 60 percent Canadian selections all by Aboriginal artists.

3792             AVR's over‑delivery will be no different in Regina.  A recent monitor of AVR by the Commission staff indicated more than 46 percent Canadian selections.  However, many of the Aboriginal Canadian artists featured on AVR have not even yet been found on the Commission's current database.  This resulted in a finding of a lower percentage of Canadian spins than we know to be the case.

3793             AVR has since agreed to assist the Commission by confirming the Canadian content status of these Aboriginal Canadian artists who are not currently in the Commission's database.

3794             Once this extensive project is complete, AVR's Aboriginal Canadian content level will be found closer to 60 percent.  AVR will aggressively promote the involvement of Aboriginal Canadian artists through regular airplay, interview appearances, guest hosting and live studio performances.  AVR will encourage live music by offering extensive free promotion of the upcoming performances of Aboriginal artists.

3795             MR. HILL:  In closing today I want to thank the Chair and members and staff of the Commission and the other licence applicants who are our colleagues in the broadcast industry.

3796             We want to thank the indigenous people of this area for permitting us to gather on their traditional territory for these hearings and we thank the Creator for our blessings.

3797             The Broadcasting Act, section 3(1)(d)(iii) states that the Canadian broadcasting system should reflect the special place of Aboriginal people within Canadian society.

3798             Section 3(1)(o) of the Act states that programming that reflects the Aboriginal cultures of Canada should be provided within the Canadian Broadcasting system as resources become available for that purpose.

3799             The boards of directors of AVR gratefully acknowledge the support of Phil Fontaine, the National Chief of the Assembly of First Nations; George Erasmus, co‑Chair of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal People; Perry Bellegarde, former Grand Chief of the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations and the Regional Chief of Saskatchewan; Beverley Jacobs, president of the Native Women's Association of Canada; Vera Pawis‑Tabobondung, president of the National Association of Friendship Centres; Marg Friesch, coordinator of the Circle of Aboriginal Community Voices here in Regina; Don Ross, president of Premier Developments; and the 90 percent of the respondents to the Doering survey who live in Regina and who reported they fully support the need for a national Aboriginal radio service.

3800             We are also delighted to have received strong support from such stars of the Aboriginal Canadian music scene as John Arcand, Donny Parenteau, Eekwol, and Andrea Menard.  They understand the value of a national Aboriginal radio service both to their own development as musicians but also to the Aboriginal communities from which they come.

3801             Thank you.

3802             And we would be pleased to respond to your questions.  All my relations.

3803             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Hill.

3804             Vice‑Chair Arpin...?

3805             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  Thank you, Mr. Hill and your team.

3806             I will address my question to you, but you may ask where ‑‑ who you think is most appropriate to answer the question to the members of your team.

3807             I know that we ‑‑ at this hearing we will have the opportunity to see you two other times, but ‑‑ so I will, today, restrict my questions only to the Regina application.  I know that tomorrow we will have an opportunity to hear your Saskatoon application and on Friday we will hear your renewal.  I will want you not to refer to the current situation at CKV but to deal specifically with the Regina item so that we, for the record, have a complete understanding of your plan for Regina.

3808             So could you, as a first question, explain to the Commission why at this time in the evolution of AVR it is ‑‑ you have applied for a service in this market in Regina?

3809             MR. HILL:  Yes.

3810             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I think you partly gave the answer in your oral presentation, but you may want to expand.

3811             MR. HILL:  Okay.  Yes, Commissioner Arpin, I guess the primary reason is we feel very confident and, you know, strong about the idea that this national radio service is extremely important to Aboriginal people and we think that it's a ‑‑ as important to the Aboriginal community in Regina as is important as any other urban city.

3812             The Aboriginal people of Regina do not have a radio service which speaks specifically to them which reflects, you know, back to them their Aboriginal identity.  So that is, I guess, the first reason.

3813             The second reason, I think, is the fact that, you know, when this has happened in the past with AVR that we are faced with a situation where potentially we may not be able to have the opportunity to achieve a licence in Regina for a very long time.

3814             So the fact that the call for the Regina licence has come about, we feel that we don't want to miss the opportunity to be able to broadcast into Regina to serve the Aboriginal population here.  And maybe Lewis can comment further?

3815             MR. CARDINAL:  Yes.  I just want to add to the comment of having the reflection of the Aboriginal voice brought back to the Aboriginal community here in the City of Regina.

3816             Cultural reflectivity is a very important part and process of strengthening our Aboriginal communities, and we know that if we can create that space and opportunity for the Aboriginal voice to be heard far and wide around this region, we will be contributing not only to the wellbeing of Aboriginal people in Canada, but also to the wellbeing of the community as a whole.

3817             MR. HILL:  Just to finish that answer, you know, one of the primary missions of Aboriginal Voice Radio is to improve the lives of Aboriginal people.  And, you know, we would certainly like the opportunity to help in that regard as much as we can as a national radio service for the community in Regina.

3818             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So thank you.  One of the first question that is ‑‑ appears to be obvious, at least for the Commission, is how will you be able to finance the implementation of a new service for Regina?

3819             MR. HILL:  Commissioner, we've done projections which we have ‑‑ financial projections for several years going out, looking out, and we've submitted financial projections that show that we have the financial wherewithal as far as, you know, getting the Regina operation up and running and sustaining it.

3820             Our projections are very conservative and they're based upon revenue streams which are virtually guaranteed because they're long‑term commitments from broadcast benefit packages.

3821             We've also added advertising, and I guess there's some grant contributions where we would apply for grants, but we have extremely conservative advertising projections for a national radio service.  They're very, very low.

3822             So we wanted to give you a financial picture going out that is ‑‑ you can have a very high degree of confidence in because they're virtually guaranteed revenue streams.

3823             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I don't think that those financial projections have been filed with the Commission, have they?

3824             MR. HILL:  I thought they did.  But for sure we can file them with the Commission and ensure that you have them if we haven't yet, but I was under the impression that we did.

3825             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Looking at ‑‑

3826             MR. HILL:  I believe we'd be able to give you those ‑‑ to you today.

3827             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Okay, fine.  Well, the ‑‑

3828             MR. HILL:  Maybe if I could just add that, you know, in the development of the AVR national network there is a sequence that we see, and that is the first thing is to develop the stations and get the financial wherewithal to put ‑‑ to obtain licences and put the stations on the air.

3829             The next thing is to improve the programming to a point where it's high quality programming and of course, following that, we would be able to develop a ‑‑ to a pretty strong sales effort once we do things as far as the programming and getting the stations on the air.

3830             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  The ‑‑ other than having financial projections that you have developed, the ‑‑ do you have the necessary documentation that will help us to understand ‑‑ well, we are certainly aware of the benefit packages that has been approved in the past, so we know that the Commission has approved a good number of broadcasters' proposal to support the development of AVR.

3831             But other than that, do you have any other documentation that supports the ‑‑ your ‑‑ they're ‑‑ your availability of funds?

3832             MR. HILL:  Well, you know, we put a lot of work into the financial projections to ensure that we were going to be on the mark regarding the financial future, so we can provide extensive information to the Commission and, you know, we'd certainly be willing to do that, Commissioner Arpin.

3833             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yeah.  And obviously some of it will be filed on a confidential basis so there ‑‑ if you think that you require that these documents not be put in the public record, staff and legal ‑‑ our legal people will surely look at and advise if it is ‑‑ if it could be filed in ‑‑ under confidence.

3834             MR. HILL:  Okay.  We appreciate that very much.

3835             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I know other than ‑‑ obviously you addressed the issue of capital expenditures, but then there's the operational expenditures of a transmitter, and you also have programming plans and you ‑‑ and pre‑launch operating cost.

3836             Do you have the ‑‑ do you have on hand the financing to do such an investment for the Regina application?

3837             MR. HILL:  Yes, Commissioner.  We have projected enough money.  As a matter of fact, moving out into the future year by year in the documents that we submit, you'll find that we actually are in a surplus situation moving out ‑‑ as we move out.

3838             And this ‑‑ these have taken into account getting the stations on the air and providing a level of service.  I have to say that, you know, the aspiration of AVR is to provide the most premium high quality service, you know, that anyone could provide for Aboriginal people.  And we do recognize that that is contingent upon finances, you know, having the financial wherewithal to do a premium service.

3839             What we've projected, I would say, is a moderate service because, you know, we wanted to indicate to you that we could do that with a high degree of confidence based upon virtually ‑‑ the ‑‑ based upon revenue streams that are almost virtually guaranteed.

3840             But I want to say that we do believe amongst the AVR team that we are going to out‑perform what the projections are that we're giving to you.  As you'll see, once you get a chance to take a look at the ‑‑ the advertising revenues, for instance, are extremely low.

3841             So we believe that we're going to, you know, have the financing to be able to, over a period of time, increase the quality of the programming that is coming into Regina.

3842             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Now, I notice in this morning's oral presentation that you have increased the local content from 25 to 32 hours of programming on a weekly basis.  They ‑‑ you're ‑‑ I know that the application was based on 25 hours and 51 minute of local programming.  Now, this morning, in your oral presentation you referred to 32 hours.

3843             We will surely have an opportunity to discuss later on the content of those 32 hours, but that means that you will probably need more staff than you ‑‑ what you have prepared because I notice that when I'm looking at your application, the ‑‑ I know that you have identified that you will need three programming staff, including one journalist, announcer for in excess of ‑‑ well, I have here now for 32 hours.

3844             You have also indicated that the roll‑out of the programming will be tied to a number of funding opportunities and initiative in which you have not elaborate ‑‑ but the ‑‑ well, we have all ‑‑ with respect to the funding initiative, other than the ‑‑ that the monies that you're getting through benefits and now you said "limited advertising revenues" and ‑‑ but you did mention grants.  What type of grants are you talking about and what is really available for AVR?

3845             MR. HILL:  Well, I think there are a number of grant opportunities, Commissioner.  We have been successful in the past in gaining both federal grants and provincial grants.  For instance, in Ontario we were provided with a grant from the Ontario Trillium Foundation of 180,000.

3846             So as we build the programming into each urban centre, we believe that we will be able to access provincial types of grants to help with the local effort, as well as to continue to access federal grants that would provide contributions to help with the entire national radio network.

3847             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  But when you are getting grants from one province, can you use the proceeds for ‑‑ to invest in another province?

3848             MR. HILL:  Well ‑‑

3849             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Because you mentioned the Ontario ‑‑ and Ontario program.  Could you use the proceeds of that program for Saskatchewan?

3850             MR. HILL:  Well, we believe that we'll be able to do that because we are going to provide local programming, and I think those grants would be specific to the local programming.  So as far as we know right now, we would be able to do that.

3851             I mean it's going to vary from each province ‑‑

3852             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yeah.

3853             MR. HILL:  ‑‑ depending upon what their programs are, but ‑‑ yeah, Roy can ‑‑

3854             MR. HENNESSY:  The ‑‑ good morning.  The Trillium Foundation grant was specifically intended to be used for the development of an Aboriginal news department, which included news stringers in various regions of the Province of Ontario to ensure that we were reaching out to that organization.

3855             The application for that grant began before we had expanded our service, but they included the monies to be used to train and develop Aboriginal news staff as well as reaching out through the province, so a multi‑purpose application to that funding.  Those are the types of grants that we're seeking.

3856             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  We'll now get to the specific of your application and the note that ‑‑ well, staff is ‑‑ has noted some inconsistencies between your programming grid and other responses that we've got out of your ‑‑ in your letter dated August 4th, 2006, and I have a series of question.

3857             Among ‑‑ one of them is that you've stated that you will be offering a best‑of‑the‑week recap of your weekday morning show on every Saturday morning between 6 a.m. and 10 in your programming grid.  However, you have indicated that you will also offer best‑of‑the‑week recaps on Sundays.

3858             Would ‑‑ will you indeed be offering the same ‑‑ this recap program on Sundays or on Saturdays and ‑‑ or is it ‑‑ will it be a repeat of the Saturday program?

3859             MR. HILL:  Commissioner, if I could, I'd like to ask our program director Patrice Mosseau to respond to that.

3860             MS MOUSSEAU:  Yes, in fact we will be continue ‑‑ we're doing the best‑of morning show on both Saturday and Sunday.

3861             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And is the Sunday a repeat of the Saturday or is it two different programs?

3862             MS MOUSSEAU:  We're looking at doing two different programs at this time.  Of course looking at funding, we may do a best‑of on both weekend days to start.

3863             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Okay.  Although your program grid does not express as much, you have indicated that you would be providing three five‑minute weekly review features on Saturday mornings.  Could you please confirm whether this in fact ‑‑ if it's the case?  And so could you also, please, provide us with a description of ‑‑

3864             MS MOUSSEAU:  Yes.

3865             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  ‑‑ these features?

3866             MS MOUSSEAU:  The weekly review features will be ‑‑ like, the best‑of top news stories from the week previous will then be inserted into our best‑of morning show for the weekends on the Saturday and Sunday.

3867             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  You've also indicated that you will be providing seven three‑minutes community calendar features between Monday ‑‑

3868             MS MOUSSEAU:  Mmhmm.

3869             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  ‑‑ and Sunday.  Will those ‑‑ these be seven day ‑‑ daily features or seven ‑‑

3870             MS MOUSSEAU:  It's very confusing.  We actually had a small typo there.

3871             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Okay.

3872             MS MOUSSEAU:  It says seven minutes.  I think at the chart that you're looking at, it's actually ‑‑ or sorry, seven minutes total.  It's actually 21 minutes per day.

3873             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes.

3874             MS MOUSSEAU:  So it's running seven times ‑‑ seven times a day.  It's a three‑minute program running seven times a day, seven days a week.

3875             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So ‑‑ and is it the same feature that is repeated 7 times or 21 times or is it 21 different features or ‑‑

3876             MS MOUSSEAU:  Because different community events will be happening throughout the week, someone can be then updating that on a regular basis and refreshing it every couple of days.

3877             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So at the end of ‑‑ in a given week, you ‑‑ what, you could be covering two, three different ‑‑ two, three or four different events and update those ‑‑ the feature as long as you move throughout the week?

3878             MS MOUSSEAU:  Absolutely.

3879             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  You also have indicated that you will hire three staff to fulfil the local programming commitment.  These commitment will include up to 49 community calendars, 15 weekly locally‑produced newscasts, 15 hours of morning show.

3880             And you've added more this morning, the compilation of the best‑of‑the‑week features, in addition to research and reporting, liaising with CKV Toronto and other station functions.

3881             In this light, could you please elaborate on the function of each of the staff members to be employed directly by the proposed undertaking?  And even before going there, since you've mentioned this morning 32 hours of local programming, maybe we could start reviewing those local programs so that we have a better understanding of what you ‑‑ what they are and then we could discuss staffing and the capability of this ‑‑ of these fairly limited number of people to do all that, that extensive work.

3882             MS MOUSSEAU:  Mmhmm.  The star of our local content, our local programming, is really the morning show.  That's four hours a day, Monday to Friday, and then the reviews that happen on Saturday and Sunday.

3883             The two people that we have working on the morning and with ‑‑ in addition to another person, they'll be also doing the news and the community calendar which can then be programmed and run into as local programming throughout the schedule in Regina.

3884             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So the ‑‑ so say if I'm running the morning shows plus the two reviews that give us 28 hours, the ‑‑

3885             MR. HENNESSY:  Just ‑‑ sorry, please.  Just one quick thing, the difference that we've pointed out in the calculation of the community calendar between 21 minutes a week and 21 minutes a day ‑‑

3886             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yeah.

3887             MR. HENNESSY:  ‑‑ that's what contributes to the adjustment up to the 32 hours and 17 minutes.  It's just reconciling the typo ‑‑

3888             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Okay.

3889             MR. HENNESSY:  ‑‑ against what was actually on the sheet.

3890             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yeah.  Okay, fine.  Now, you think ‑‑ well, could you help us in understanding what will be the functions of the ‑‑ your local people?

3891             MR. HENNESSY:  Our roll‑out template that we will use to implement service in each of the markets that we move to commences with ‑‑ as was pointed out in one of the decisions that we received, primarily the service will come from the Toronto production centre initially and, as quickly as resources will allow, we'll introduce the local newsperson.

3892             And using technology, we can virtually create a news room in someone's home.  Mortars and brick are the expensive part of our business, and that's the last thing that we'll look at moving towards on a permanent basis.

3893             But if we start out with the newsperson in Regina, their responsibility will be to contribute news, commentary, interviews, content about newsworthy items that will be of interest to people in Regina and also people across the national network.

3894             This content will be packaged as part of the major newscasts and delivered back to each of the markets across the country.  If it's a story of particular interest in Regina, it will take a larger portion of the newscast than we would necessarily send to Vancouver or Calgary, if it's of more local interest.

3895             So the intent is to be 30 percent local, 30 percent regional and 40 percent national.  That's our goal for the content makeup of the newscast.

3896             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And ‑‑

3897             MR. HENNESSY:  So we start with ‑‑ sorry?

3898             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Okay, so if I understand you right, you ‑‑ that new person ‑‑ newsperson will gather the information here, will produce his ‑‑ well, his newscast or his feature, whatever the ‑‑ they have to do, they will send it to Toronto, but it could ‑‑ but it will be on ‑‑ rebroadcast only in Regina or out ‑‑ on all the network?  The ‑‑

3899             MR. HENNESSY:  It will be included in the national newscast, but an extended version of that can be brought into Regina if it's of ‑‑

3900             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And Regina alone ‑‑

3901             MR. HENNESSY:  ‑‑ more interest

3902             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  ‑‑ but aired ‑‑

3903             MR. HENNESSY:  And Regina alone.

3904             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  But aired ‑‑

3905             MR. HENNESSY:  We have the capability to do ‑‑ or we will have the capability to do that with the new master control system that we are on ‑‑ it's a delivery system that we will be installing.  We have the space in our facility in Toronto.  We're just waiting for the arrival of a few more dollars and we'll have that system in place where we can, from a central control, deliver the content to each of the stations across country.

3906             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So your staff will not necessarily be, as you said, the ‑‑ it will work from their basement or wherever they ‑‑ they're personally located?  You won't necessarily have a Regina facility with studios and production facility?  It will be that ‑‑

3907             MR. HENNESSY:  At the outset, no.  That will have to be addressed as soon as we introduce the Regina morning show ‑‑

3908             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yeah.

3909             MR. HENNESSY:  ‑‑ because we'll need a central location for guests, for artists, for the staff themselves to work from.

3910             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  But as ‑‑ but for ‑‑

3911             MR. HENNESSY:  A similar thing is ‑‑ will happen.  We are in discussions with the Weather Network and, very soon, we are going to introduce a national weather forecast and a more detailed local forecast that's ‑‑ which will be dropped into each of our stations.

3912             So again, using technology and relationship with the Weather Network, we will be able to provide travellers' weather ‑‑ and this is another way that we're dealing with the issue of the multitude of Aboriginal languages and that we're encouraging our morning show host ‑‑ the Inuit have 200 words for snow.  I can only think of about four, one of which I can use here.

3913             They have a large number of words, and we're going to encourage that type of use of the language to be included into the programming, so that it becomes an item of interest.  It becomes something that can be, in a humorous way, entertaining/educational, but it becomes a positive experience for people who are listening.

3914             Again, those sorts of things can be done from the master control and dropped into the individual locations.

3915             MR. WOOD:  Mr. Chairman, I might also mention that there would be a 1‑800 listener line.  There will be a news tip award line where we would pay $100 a week and $1,000 a year for the best news tip award.  There will be the AVR news correspondent in the community and there would be contact with the local Friendship Centres for more of the Regina input into the national service.

3916             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Now, that's the first stage, and it's in ‑‑ to start with the news gathering and news producing out of Regina.  Then ‑‑ and that will employ one person?

3917             MR. HENNESSY:  In the news position?  Yes.

3918             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes.

3919             MR. HENNESSY:  Yes.

3920             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Okay.  Then later, as finances are available, then you will ‑‑ you're planning to have a morning show, and it's when you will have that morning show that you will be also able to produce the best of the week and not before?

3921             MR. HENNESSY:  Correct.

3922             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Correct.  So when ‑‑ and how many employees will be involved in the morning show?

3923             MR. HENNESSY:  For the local production of the morning show ‑‑

3924             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes.

3925             MR. HENNESSY:  ‑‑ we'll have the newsperson, the morning host who is the anchor for the show does interviews, that type of thing.  There will be a producer who operates the morning show and works to edit, putting together a community calendar, a multipurpose position such as that.  And we also have a technician for the station that's on a service contract to maintain us technically.

3926             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And that will ‑‑ at which stage of your development are you figuring out that you will be able to implement the morning program, so having local facilities?

3927             MR. HENNESSY:  As quickly as possible.  We are ‑‑

3928             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And ‑‑

3929             MR. HENNESSY:  ‑‑ we are very much aware of our ‑‑

3930             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And in your own words, what the words "quickly" means?

3931             MR. HILL:  Commissioner ‑‑

3932             MR. HENNESSY:  3/25 September ‑‑

3933             MR. HILL:  Commissioner, I think that we have been able to put together a very strong team that's very focused on the financing issue going forward.

3934             And as I had mentioned, we want to deliver a premium service and we took that very seriously.  And we know we have a national radio network to build and we have specifically hired people whose job it is to, I guess, you know, optimize our ability to achieve the type of financing that's required.

3935             MR. HENNESSY:  One ‑‑

3936             MR. HILL:  There are more people working on this than what is sitting here at the table.

3937             MR. HENNESSY:  One of the things that was mentioned was the low advertising revenues.  I think we should make a distinction between advertising and our concept of commercial advertising and what we are really attempting to create.  We do not see ourselves as a commercial competitor.  We don't believe we will be.

3938             We're not going to be comparing cost per point with the commercial operations in the market, but we do ‑‑ and we have one of our consultants, one of our friends, has had some conversations with national public radio and public broadcasting in the US.  And we're using that as a model and we have created presentation packages that we can take nationally or to large corporations in the communities we're serving, to seek funding ‑‑ not for advertising, but to support the development of a program of a feature, whether it's a feature on community welfare and health that could be sponsored by an organization of food producers or it's a wide open range or scope that we're going after to seek these dollars to help us fund and develop the programming.

3939             And they will receive the appropriate credits as you hear on public radio or you see on PBS, sponsored by the generosity of this foundation and that organization.

3940             We have a representative in Vancouver at this point in time.  We have a company in Calgary.  There's people there.  They've undertaken to develop this program across the prairies.  They've been concentrating on the oil towers in Calgary initially because it seemed like right ‑‑ ripe picking, but they're working in that area.

3941             And we have a consultant in ‑‑ who works out of Windsor who is also working to help us develop this in Toronto to go after corporations there.

3942             So it's a different sales.  It's a different product and it will be ‑‑ we don't see the money coming out of advertising budgets, more out of community relations, education and budgets of that nature that the companies have.

3943             So as we develop that, you know, quite possibly if the ‑‑ if it was a company in Regina, they would specify they wanted the money spent here, and we will be most accommodating.

3944             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  The programming plans that we are discussing now for Regina, except in Toronto, have you already start to implement part of it in the ‑‑ in other markets?

3945             MR. HILL:  Well, Commissioner, we've started to ‑‑

3946             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  To go on air?

3947             MR. HILL:  Yeah, we're working on it right now.  We haven't set a firm date.  Our intention was as soon as this hearing is finished, we're going to be into determining more of an exact time when we're going to be able to achieve those things, but we think that it's not too ‑‑ not very far into the future.

3948             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And it ‑‑ but it's ‑‑ and you're following the same steps?

3949             MR. HILL:  Yes.  Yes.

3950             MR. WOOD:  Mr. Chairman, I might add that had there is no resistance on the part of AVR to provide local programming.  You do not have to drag us kicking and screaming to do local programming.  We fully appreciate the idea that local programming generates audience.  That will be a very high priority for AVR, and it's linked really, again, to when the funds become available.

3951             I think that we've dramatically understated the capability of the network to generate sales revenues through advertising.  And in part, I might ask Patrice to comment on some of the listener reaction we're getting ‑‑ not just from Aboriginal people, but from all people ‑‑ to the music that we're featuring on AVR.

3952             MS MOUSSEAU:  Our listeners in ‑‑ right now in Toronto, and actually we get listeners all across ‑‑

3953             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can you just speak up please?

3954             MS MOUSSEAU:  Sorry.

3955             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm sorry.

3956             MS MOUSSEAU:  That's okay.  I get e‑mails and phone calls every day from our listeners in Toronto and across Canada, and actually around the world, and one of the things that they keep mentioning to me is the incredible music and programming that's on AVR that's completely unavailable.  There's no other station like that.

3957             And we want to be able to roll that out nationally.  We want everybody in Canada to be able to hear AVR.  We want all the Aboriginal communities across all the provinces, including Saskatchewan, to be a part of this national network.

3958             And I think if Saskatoon and Regina don't get the opportunity to add their voice to that network, I think it's going to do them a great disservice.  And the fact is, is that people like to hear us, and we want to be heard here as well.

3959             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Now, the local programming that we're talking about this morning, all of that will be ‑‑ in which language will it be?  In the ‑‑ in Cree, in Assiniboine or in English or ‑‑

3960             MS MOUSSEAU:  Shall I?

3961             MR. HILL:  We ‑‑ right now, Commissioner, we're broadcasting two languages that I guess are the languages in the cities where we have this happening.  The majority of the population ‑‑ and that's predominantly, right now, Cree and Ojibwe.

3962             I know there are other Aboriginal groups here and, you know, we would of course broadcast in languages that are the most relevant for each city.  So I know there are Assiniboine people here, Saulteaux, in addition to Cree predominantly, and there are other First Nations as well.

3963             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  We ‑‑ yesterday we heard there were some Dakotas as well in this city, and there was a fifth one, but we check around ourself, and I don't think it was ever mentioned.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

3964             MS MOUSSEAU:  We have our spoken ‑‑ or our Aboriginal language requirement that we obviously are going to hit and probably exceed as far as language lessons actually having programming spoken in Aboriginal languages.

3965             But the thing is, is because we're going to have local talent here, they're going to ‑‑ have the ability not only to speak in English to their community, but to be able to use their own language commonly and make it something that's accessible and understandable, and then the people in the community can go, "Well, yeah, this is my language and I'm hearing it on the radio."  And that's going to have a lot of benefit to get people more encouraged to use their language and to learn more about it.

3966             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Will you be doing some things for the Metis community?

3967             MS MOUSSEAU:  Absolutely.  In fact we already ‑‑ we have a Metis show ‑‑

3968             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yeah.

3969             MS MOUSSEAU:  ‑‑ right now in Toronto, which probably would roll out first, or take that national program, take it over into Regina and then look to the Metis community in Regina to contribute to that show.

3970             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Now, if things go well and over time we ‑‑ are you planning to hire more than three and a half people to operate your local programming contention?

3971             MS MOUSSEAU:  Well, one of the things about AVR is we're traditional storytellers, but we're using the best technology that we can find right now to do everything as quickly, as efficiently and as inexpensively as possible.

3972             One of the benefits of that is we can have DJs that are available and broadcasting nationally from anywhere in the country, so we could have X number of staff from right here in Saskatchewan as part of the national network.

3973             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Now, you haven't indicated that you will provide both locally‑produced and network‑produced spoken‑word programming including, like, a number of newscasts ‑‑ you know, well, we've already discussed my question.  I apologize.

3974             MR. WOOD:  Mr. Chairman, if I could just jump in?

3975             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes.

3976             MR. WOOD:  One comment about additional local reflection.  There has been great interest on the part of local community groups to come forward with programs that would be heard on AVR.  AVR would make that widely known, that such programming would find a platform on AVR and we would also approach organizations like the local Friendship Centre, for example, to find out if they wanted to produce a program that would be heard locally and, depending on the quality aspects of it or the program in its entirety, could be heard nationally.

3977             So it won't just be whether we have a large enough staff to accommodate local programming; there will be feedback and input coming from the community itself.  In fact, there's a fair amount of pent up demand for that.

3978             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Now, in the programming grid that you've provided us, you did mention number ‑‑ a good number of titles for network‑originated programming.  However, since very little information was provided in relation to these programs, I personally consulted your Toronto website so ‑‑ where I found the ‑‑ some descriptions for Red Tales, Women's Round Table, Art Review, Metis Health, AKA American Indian Living, and Heartbeat.  Could you confirm that the description of these programs provided on your website is current ‑‑ that currently is on your website, and I did check your website last week, so is this ‑‑ is that information still ‑‑

3979             MS MOUSSEAU:  Program ‑‑

3980             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  ‑‑ accurate?

3981             MS MOUSSEAU:  ‑‑ descriptions that are on the website are in fact correct.

3982             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So it ‑‑

3983             MS MOUSSEAU:  Now, we ‑‑

3984             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  ‑‑ they are accurate?

3985             MS MOUSSEAU:  ‑‑ we do have a few more additions to make to the website.  We've been pretty busy.  Haven't had a chance to update it recently but, yeah, the descriptions there ‑‑

3986             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  But what ‑‑

3987             MS MOUSSEAU:  ‑‑ are correct.

3988             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  ‑‑ what is on the website is accurate?

3989             MS MOUSSEAU:  Yes.

3990             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Could you ‑‑ and getting back to your morning show that you're planning to have for Regina, could you describe for us the type of content you will ‑‑ you're looking to cover?  And you've mentioned local activities.  You've mentioned interviews, but could you give us more ‑‑

3991             MS MOUSSEAU:  This morning show is really going to be an opportunity for the people in Regina to have a showcase for their talent.

3992             One of the reasons why I'm so excited to come into this market is because the musical talent in this province is extraordinary.  We've had an opportunity to have several artists send their ‑‑ send us their CDs because they are really well‑known, like Andrea Menard for example, and she gets played all the time on AVR.  And there's a lot of regional musicians that haven't even had the opportunity ‑‑

3993             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  But she's played at ‑‑

3994             MS MOUSSEAU:  ‑‑ to hear about it.

3995             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  ‑‑ in many other radio stations as well.

3996             MS MOUSSEAU:  Yeah, she's fantastic.

3997             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yeah.

3998             MS MOUSSEAU:  But there's a lot of hidden talent there, so on the morning show we have an opportunity for people to come in and be heard live and be heard in their communities, as well as news, weather, talk.

3999             We could have people coming in talking about Aboriginal leadership, local issues, perhaps provincial/federal politics, getting people involved in their communities, talking about the ability of people to get involved to learn languages.  Maybe there's local programs here that AVR can be promoting to promote the use of Aboriginal languages and bring that back into the community.

4000             I mean really the possibilities are endless as to what we can do for Regina with the morning show.

4001             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  The ‑‑ will the morning show be more spoken driven or more music driven?

4002             MS MOUSSEAU:  I see it probably about half and half.  A lot of music, a lot of talk ‑‑ I mean it's a variety show.

4003             MR. CARDINAL:  If you don't mind me adding to that as well?  In Edmonton, for example where I'm from, there is tremendous support from the community in wanting to do any number of programming possibilities that they can come up with.

4004             And so at this point, we're experiencing a real buy‑in from the Aboriginal communities, particularly in Edmonton, who are interested in providing support, in developing programming and programming ideas.  And I have to hold them back a little bit so that at least we're a bit more organized and ready for them when their opportunity comes.

4005             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Are you on air in Edmonton?

4006             MR. CARDINAL:  No, not yet.

4007             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So the thing is that it's tough to have a program for the community when you're not yet on air.

4008             MR. CARDINAL:  Absolutely.  They're very excited about the opportunity that's coming, so that's what I wanted to reiterate.

4009             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  You wanted to ‑‑

4010             MR. HILL:  I just wanted to comment, Commissioner, that we did talk about some, I guess, themes that would kind of position AVR.  And the first and most important one in the spoken‑word portion is heritage and culture, Aboriginal heritage and culture, and Aboriginal values.

4011             We do have a show called the Wisdom of the Elders right now, and that type of, I guess, content would certainly take place as part of the morning show.  We're also very interested in promoting environmental issues because of Native people's respect for the land and for Mother Earth.

4012             We do have an aspiration of, I guess, fostering discussion around, I guess, issues such as economic development and, I guess, things that maybe some of the leadership ‑‑ Aboriginal leadership is involved in.

4013             We also are going to, you know, feature extensive programming about the arts, which is certainly a large part of Aboriginal culture.  And also education is one thing that we think is very important and it's ‑‑ one of the things that we want to promote as well.  And as Patrice said, you know, there's just a tremendous amount of talent in Saskatchewan and that would certainly comprise a significant portion of the morning show.

4014             MR. WOOD:  Just in order to follow up on that comment from Mr. Hill, to give you a kind of broad overview of where AVR wants go with its programming, in order to help improve the lives of Aboriginal people the focus would be, number one, on news every hour of the day, 24 hours a day.  We consider news very important.

4015             Secondly would be the national two‑hour telephone talk show every day, Monday through Friday.  And third would be 30 to 60 minutes of enriched public affairs programming each and every day.  That is what AVR ultimately hopes to do to harmonize what it's doing on all of its stations.  It will be an information rich service as the funds become available.

4016             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  The ‑‑

4017             MR. HENNESSY:  We talk about the national talk show.  There is a local component to that in each of the markets.  The technological developments that seem to be going at breathtaking speed, the company in Winnipeg that is selling us the master control and production facilities, they are also marketing a new product that will be on ‑‑ out shortly.  Hopefully we can be one of the first to use it.

4018             In effect it's a small production board which would go into the control room of each of our local facilities like in the facility in Regina where the morning show is produced.  It would also ‑‑ that's where we do the Regina portion of the national talk show.

4019             And the way this equipment is designed, by simply switching a knob, in Toronto the host and producer of the national talk show can bring in the Regina guest or the Regina host and guest, and all of the levels in production can be controlled from the one centre.  So again, using that will require less manpower and give us greater ability to get into each of these markets to deal with topics that are relevant.

4020             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Mr. Wood, in the ‑‑ you just mentioned talk ‑‑ just mention of news and the importance of news and news at every hour means that there ‑‑ what you're saying is you're thinking ‑‑ talking about having 168 newscasts a week.  Now for Regina, in your applications, you're talking about 15 local newscasts and 15 net ‑‑ network newscasts, so from 30 to 168 is somehow a water step.

4021             But regarding local news, what type of content are you ‑‑ will you be looking at?  Specific contents to the Aboriginal or newscasts about what's going on in the city?  Because it has some importance also for the Aboriginal population and ‑‑

4022             MS MOUSSEAU:  Yeah, we'll be looking at ‑‑ I think it's a two‑pronged ‑‑ sorry, it's a two‑pronged approach as taking a look at issues that affect Aboriginal people directly, perhaps news stories that are being maybe under‑reported by the mainstream news, as well as taking a look at news events, current events that mean something to Canadians at large.  But we can take a look at them from the Aboriginal perspective so that we can say, "Well, this is what Aboriginal people think about this particular issue."

4023             MR. WOOD:  Mr. Arpin, I just wanted to add also that the comment about the hourly news is not a local current Regina commitment that we're presenting to you.  It's simply where AVR wants to go ‑‑

4024             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  The ‑‑ that's ‑‑

4025             MR. WOOD:  ‑‑ in the future.

4026             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  ‑‑ that's what I understood.

4027             MR. WOOD:  Yes.  Also Mr. Cardinal has a comment also with regard to the dialogue that would occur amongst communities across Canada with the talk element of the programming.

4028             MR. CARDINAL:  Yes.  It's just important to note that the issues that arise within different parts of the nation also have a resounding effect on communities in the West, for example, the New Caledonia situation is not fully understood.  There is smatterings of information as the discussions that make their way informally into the community, but this kind of service for us to engage in the dialogue that is surrounding the issues that are pertinent to other Aboriginal communities across Canada is an opportunity for us to enter into a discourse that really lends to a deeper understanding, not just for ourselves but for Canadians as a whole when it comes to these kinds of issues.

4029             MR. HENNESSY:  We also ‑‑ we regard ourselves as being an inclusive organization, and the programming that we do is intended to invite people in to participate and learn, Aboriginal and non‑Aboriginal.

4030             One quick anecdote.  When we were working with the Trillium Foundation funds and had three in our news room in Toronto, and a couple of them were juniors and were being trained.  I walked into the news room one morning, and there was the usual black coffee and pounding away on keyboards.  I said, "Well, what's the big story today?"

4031             And there were a couple of mutterings about incidents that were totally Aboriginal in nature.  And I just smiled and I said, "I thought the fact that we have a new Pope was pretty interesting."  And I just left.  About 45 minutes, an hour later, the news director came in the door and said, "Listen to the newscast."

4032             And they ‑‑ it had started the wheel spinning about this idea being inclusive, and we ended up with a 20‑minute interview with one of the representatives of Six Nations who had been there when the Pope, who had just passed away, had visited Six Nations.  And there was a whole discussion about the relationship between the Catholic Church and the Aboriginal people; that's the type of thing that we want to do in each of the communities on an ongoing basis.

4033             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Now, in your programming grid that you have, you're suggesting to have a local newscast at 6 a.m., 8 a.m., and 1 a.m. and for a duration of five minutes each.  Will they be solely focused on local news or what will be ‑‑ or will they also contain national news materials?  Or what will be produced here in Regina and what will come from other sources?

4034             MS MOUSSEAU:  The Regina newscast, the ‑‑ we have the ability to draw from the national news, so they can look at the major stories of the day, include that into their local news broadcast.

4035             MR. WOOD:  Mr. Chairman, to the extend though that national stories are aired from the Regina news room, those will be developed with a Regina perspective.  So it will be Regina specific stories, plus the national stories from a Regina perspective.

4036             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  You have indicated that you intend to source the majority of your future programming, such as OOP(ph), Wisdom of the Elders, Turtle Highland Line(ph), Heart Review(ph), and other from AV ‑‑ from your network.  The urban Aboriginal experience in Toronto may differ quite significantly from the urban Aboriginal experience here in Regina.

4037             With this in mind, could you please comment on how these programs will be specifically relevant to Regina Aboriginal population?

4038             MS MOUSSEAU:  These programs although they are produced in Toronto are pretty general across the board.  For example, Red Tales, it's a literary review.  We're talking about books, but the fact is we're going to have the national network, and our hosts and our producers are going to have the resources of those other urban communities.  They're going to be able to submit content, submit ideas, and be able to work on these programs collaboratively.

4039             So perhaps the host is in Toronto, but we're really getting information and content from across the entire network.

4040             MR. HILL:  Commissioner, I think ‑‑ I believe that's one of the strengths of AVR is ‑‑ and this happens outside of the radio broadcast, is the exchange of stories and, you know, information amongst Aboriginal people across the country so ‑‑ and it happens in all different areas.

4041             You know, there are many things in the arts.  There are many things as far as the Native political leadership.  There are many things as far as the elders are concerned where there are national events and discussions, where there is a collaboration and exchange of understanding amongst all these various groups.

4042             And I think that's one of the benefits that the national radio network brings to local communities, is that what's happening in the other communities is ‑‑ there's an increased awareness in the local community and what's happening in other local communities, and I think that goes both ways, that ‑‑ that's certainly the ‑‑ you know, a local community ‑‑ the Aboriginal communities in Toronto could benefit from, you know, being engaged and hear what's happening in Regina.

4043             MR. CARDINAL:  Let me add to the ‑‑ to those points that you've made, Jamie.  The ‑‑ right now we know that there's over 60 percent of Aboriginal people that live in ‑‑ with ‑‑ within urban centres and we also know that across the country each of these urban centres, like Toronto and Edmonton and Vancouver, are faced with similar issues.

4044             One of the top five issues that are consistently brought forward by these Aboriginal communities is one of Aboriginal ‑‑ access to Aboriginal culture and history.  A lot of our urban centres are without access to these institutions of culture and ceremony, and these are very important in providing a sense of continuity and a sense of identity for Aboriginal people within the urban settings.  So when we talk about issues within Toronto, aside from cultural content in terms of languages and things like that, the essence and the basis of the issues are the same.  We need to access culture.  We need to also find out from our other relatives in different cities how they're dealing with those issues as well; employment, education and those issues are relevant across the country.

4045             How we're dealing with them are unique, and that in and of itself creates the opportunity for a wonderful dialogue in sharing and creating strategies to deal with these issues.

4046             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  The ‑‑ regarding to Aboriginal languages, I note that in your oral presentations you agreed to the existing conditions of licence that appear in all your ‑‑ the licence that have been granted to you.  So only to reiterate, so the ‑‑ you do accept the conditions of licence that they have been granted to your existing licence, that they could be ‑‑ that they apply for Regina?

4047             MR. HILL:  Commissioner, yes, we accept those conditions and we support them.

4048             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes, including the 25 percent of spoken word?

4049             MR. HILL:  Yes, including the 25 percent of spoken word.

4050             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  The ‑‑ now, are you planning to sell any advertising locally, and if yes, at which stage in the development of your service?

4051             MR. HILL:  No, we do not have any intention to sell local advertising.  It's ‑‑ our intention is to sell national advertising, so maybe that's a question that speaks to our impact on, I guess, local broadcasting.  And we don't expect that we're going to have any negative effect on local broadcasting, so we don't have any intention of selling local advertising.

4052             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Including the local component of your ‑‑ of the programming grid that you have proposed?

4053             MR. HILL:  Yes, including that as well.

4054             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And now, as you know, we will hear today an application by Natotawin Broadcasting to operate also a type B radio broadcast programming undertaking.  Well, they are currently in La Ronge and they are applying for a rebroad in ‑‑ rebroadcasting facility in Regina.

4055             According to ‑‑ and you referred to the 2001 census, the Aboriginal population is approximately 16,000 people.  Some are saying that by today, it's probably closer to 20,000, but do you think there's room for two services to serve the Aboriginal population in Regina; one from your network and the other one from the La Ronge service who is providing a more regional service to Saskatchewan?

4056             MR. HILL:  Yes, Commissioner, the primary mission of AVR is to improve the lives of Aboriginal people.  And we support, with that idea, I guess, as much Aboriginal media availability as possible.  We do believe there are room for two ‑‑ two Aboriginal broadcasts in Regina.

4057             And I want to say especially in light of the fact that we have some demographic projections that indicate that within a couple of generations, that approximately half of the population of Saskatchewan will be Aboriginal people.

4058             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  The ‑‑ and how will your service ‑‑ I don't know if you have had a chance to look at the application of Natotawin, but how your ‑‑ if you do, could you tell me how the ‑‑ your service will defer from them?

4059             MR. HILL:  Well, I think that it's a difference between a national programming service and a local or regional program service.  I think that the thing ‑‑ Aboriginal Voices is virtually 100 percent Aboriginal.  Our intention is to, at a minimum, have ‑‑ or to play 50 percent of Canadian Aboriginal artists.  We are not aware that there are any other broadcasters providing any type of service like that.  We are not aware of any intention to provide a service like that.

4060             So I think that, you know, we're distinct as far as other Aboriginal broadcast services and I think ‑‑ and those are the two primary ways that we're almost all Aboriginal content, and it's a national dialogue and I think that certainly I would hope that Regina could be a part of that.

4061             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  The ‑‑ your service as ‑‑ and you mention it on numerous occasion, and it's also in your original application, is catering to the Aboriginal people in the urban centres.

4062             Obviously the ‑‑ Saskatchewan is more a rural community than an urban community.  How will your service cater to the Aboriginal of the ‑‑ of Saskatchewan?  And I'm also thinking here about Saskatoon, since obviously you'll be ‑‑ they will ‑‑ you will be working in tandem with those two stations ‑‑ how the Aboriginal of this province will feel served by an urban service.

4063             MR. HILL:  Well, one of the things that we have said previously and we still intend to go forward with the plan that we will provide all of our programming free of charge to, you know, any and all Aboriginal broadcasters across the country, so any regional broadcaster or First Nations‑based radio station will be able to download our programming free of charge.

4064             So I mean some of them may be interested, and we believe that they would be, and some have expressed interest in some of our national content just to, you know, provide something else.  I mean it's not available right now, but the ‑‑ you know, we would be able to provide a national content for them at whatever level they think is appropriate.

4065             So we have focused primarily in, I guess, our presentations on the urban Aboriginal people where more than half ‑‑ the statistics show that more than half of Aboriginal people do live in urban centres, but we fully intend to provide our service free of charge to any other Aboriginal broadcaster.

4066             MR. CARDINAL:  Maybe also add to that by stating, again, demographics around transmigration between First Nations and Aboriginal communities and urban centres.  They seem ‑‑ there ‑‑ there's a lot of going back and forth between the city and their traditional areas or their communities.  That number is consistent.  That means people are coming here and working, returning homes either on weekends or certain durations of time.  We also recognize that there's a huge population growth within the urban centres themselves.

4067             So in this way, AVR is providing an access to information that is not accessible in their remote communities nor their communities in general.  And I think that's one major contribution that AVR will give to the Aboriginal people in Saskatchewan.

4068             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Maybe it's the place to ask my questions regarding ‑‑ well, yesterday when Standard appear for a ‑‑ for their application to serve Regina, they referred to an agreement that had ‑‑ they had signed with AVR regarding a weekly news magazine that they are contemplating for the ‑‑ for this market, and now it's my ‑‑ could you say to us more about what that agreement is all about?

4069             MR. HILL:  Yes, I'd be happy to, Commissioner.  We have a great relationship with Standard, and Standard has been very good to AVR.  And what we'll be providing is some of our news content to supplement a weekend program that they will do.  So we think it's a great idea that will increase, I guess, the Aboriginal perspective on some of the events happening in the world that are coming into Regina.  Perhaps I could ask Roy Hennessy to provide another comment.

4070             MR. HENNESSY:  This conversation with Standard began when they were applying for licences in Fort McMurray and Grande Prairie, and we were contacted by the manager of the Edmonton operation, who was organizing content program development, et cetera.  And they asked, if they were successful in Grande Prairie or Fort McMurray, would we be able to supply content to be part of ‑‑ as it was explained to me, the ‑‑ they are planning a 90‑minute news magazine on Sunday mornings ‑‑ thirty minutes of that would deal with issues of interest to the Aboriginal community they were serving, or Aboriginals in the community they were proposing to serve ‑‑ and would we make content from our national service stations available to them for inclusion.

4071             That was the total extent of the conversation.  Given that we weren't applying in those markets and our mandate or desire to expand the awareness of Aboriginal issues, we agreed that we would supply that content to them if they were successful.  When they applied for licences here and Saskatoon, we were contacted again by Standard and said, "Would you see your way to it being possible for us to have the same content provided for news magazine shows in these two new licence applications?"

4072             I pointed out to them that we were applying for licences in that market but I'd ‑‑ and I discussed this with everyone involved in the licence application that ‑‑ and we agreed that we did not see that as a conflict or as a problem because, again, it addresses our mandate of getting Aboriginal information and awareness out to the general community.

4073             And it's quite conceivable that a number of people who would be listening to the Standard stations, if they're successful, would not listen to AVR.  So we would, again, be helping to increase awareness and we pointed out to them that we were applying for licences and that if we were ‑‑ both parties were successful, we would still be going to provide that information to them.  That's the total extent of our discussions with them to achieve our goals and in a way, I guess, help them achieve theirs.

4074             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you.

4075             We'll now talk about the CTD, or Canadian Television Development Program.  We ‑‑ well, we note that your plans in terms of promotion of Aboriginal artists includes broadcasting Aboriginal music, the creation of CD/DVD package contributing to an annual talent showcase, and the broadcast of special events such as powwow.

4076             In light of your stance on conditions of licence regarding the broadcast of Aboriginal language/music, could you please indicate how such a position will impact the diversity of Aboriginal music to be broadcast?

4077             MS MOUSSEAU:  I'm sorry, can you actually rephrase just that last bit?

4078             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  The ‑‑ well, you have a plan for CD, producing CD and DVD, and you refer to it in your oral presentation that you have that still ‑‑

4079             MS MOUSSEAU:  Yes, the ‑‑ that album.

4080             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Right.  I'll ‑‑ and you have developed a music library of major importance.

4081             MS MOUSSEAU:  Mmhmm.

4082             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And what my question has to do with is that ‑‑ would you please indicate how such a position will impact the diversity of Aboriginal music to be ‑‑ well ‑‑

4083             MR. HENNESSY:  If you're wondering about how this ‑‑ how our national library actually is going to impact Aboriginal talent in Regina ‑‑

4084             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yeah.

4085             MR. HENNESSY:  ‑‑ I see in a multiple fashion, that we can accomplish that, but by having local ‑‑ even just starting with the local newsperson who makes us aware there was a large concert last night or there's a new band, has a new CD out, I've got an interview with them ‑‑ having that on‑the‑street contact as the beginning, then eventually through the morning show host and their relationship with the community, becoming an integrated part of it, they make the national network or the national library, the ‑‑ aware of these artists, arrange for interviews to be featured across the country, so it becomes a developmental tool for artists in Regina and even other stations across the province that might discover an Aboriginal artist in their community.

4086             If they get airplay on that local station and it's brought to us, we can then take that and accelerate it by including it in our library, which we hope to operate as an E‑commerce as well so we can facilitate the selling of downloads of these artists' albums because you certainly won't find them at HMV.  We are the epitome of emerging talent, so having the vehicles like the E‑commerce downloading capability would allow us to accelerate the development of an artist from Regina.

4087             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Your ‑‑ is your music library ‑‑ well, will your music library made ‑‑ be made available to other Native broadcasters or ‑‑

4088             MR. HENNESSY:  We see it as evolving into a resource for all Canadians, for everyone to access.  So if a broadcaster made ‑‑ was made aware of or wanted to access our library to download a track to feature in their playlist, that's part of the service that that library is intended to perform.

4089             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  You ‑‑

4090             MR. HENNESSY:  And they pay us 99 cents for it.

4091             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I see.  Now, creation of CD/DVD and coverage of powwows locally here in Regina or in Saskatchewan, are ‑‑ at which stage of your development, do you think, that you will be capable to start covering and producing local material?

4092             MS MOUSSEAU:  Once our morning show is in place because we have ‑‑ like, I mentioned we're a pretty lean, mean machine here as far as technology goes.  We can just take them and put them right into that powwow and have them broadcast live from that event.

4093             MR. HENNESSY:  We are having discussions ‑‑ oh, sorry.  There we are.  We have been having discussions and are beginning planning to make our first appearance at the Calgary Stampede next year.  Sorry, Regina, but they'll probably win first.  But there is a very large Aboriginal segment to the Calgary stampede.  I lived there myself for four years.  I know the type of excitement that the Aboriginal celebrations contribute to the Stampede.  We intend to be live from there next year.

4094             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Well, you don't have to be sorry about Regina.  Our ‑‑ this really might ‑‑ might not have been released by that time so ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

4095             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So ‑‑

4096             MR. WOOD:  Mr. Chairman, just picking up on a comment that Mr. Hennessy made regarding the developmental support that AVR will provide, again, it's a point worth emphasizing, I think, that all of the artists featured on AVR are Aboriginal are that all of the artists are emerging because they've never before been heard.  And that, in a way, makes AVR a very distinct service because we believe it's the only service in Canada that is devoted to a music sound that is 100 percent Aboriginal.

4097             Most of the regional services and independent stations are featuring a fairly large component of commercial, mainstream, chart‑oriented music.  So whereas there's a component of mainstream music in those stations, sometimes very large, we are 100 percent Aboriginal.

4098             MS MOUSSEAU:  Sorry, may I just make one more comment?  One of the things about Aboriginal Voices Radio is ‑‑ that is enormous is that we are 100 percent Aboriginal in all of our music, and the fact is is that people are going to be hearing us and knowing that their people are making this music.  It gives them the opportunity to hear other sounds from across Canada, contribute to their own music.

4099             Recently I ‑‑ a friend of mine brought some kids with her out of Manitoba to Toronto to check out the local universities, to encourage them to ‑‑ for post‑secondary education, and they were listening to AVR for the first time and they were shocked because they couldn't believe how great the music was on our station.

4100             And, you know, one girl said, "You know what?  I'd had no idea Robbie Robertson was Aboriginal."  Like, these are things the community at large, especially the youth community, doesn't know.  And they can look at that as a source of pride, and Aboriginal Voices Radio will bring ‑‑ will be able to bring that to all of Canada.

4101             MR. HENNESSY:  One other quick comment with regards to the development of talent in Regina or the other markets that we serve as well.  We've had discussions of ‑‑ preliminary, but the idea has been discussed with an organization called Theatre D in Toronto.  They are refurbishing an old theatre and converting it into a high‑definition digital production centre that will also feature live performances, live talent.  They're opening on the 24th of November and they'll be featuring live performances with the ability to both video and record them.

4102             And the discussion ‑‑ to make it perfectly obvious, the discussion of an Aboriginal Idol type of show and production has got their interest, and that would be an opportunity where we could take an emerging artist from Regina or in Edmonton or in Calgary, have them perform in competition and be recorded and featured.

4103             And whether we can develop this into what also becomes a television feature as well, we don't know, but we have interest from the people involved in pursuing it.  These are the sorts of things that we think about, dream about and hope we can afford.

4104             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Well, Mrs. Chairman, I'm through with my questions.

4105             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

4106             Commissioner Pennefather...?

4107             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

4108             Good morning.  I have a question which is just for our understanding in terms of music, and don't interpret it as a COL or a specific question in that sense.

4109             But talking about the CD/DVD package under talent development and the project of ‑‑ as you did this morning, of including Aboriginal Canadian artists in the current database, et cetera.  Just as a general sense, the artists that you're talking about cover all the genre of music or are we ‑‑ you know, I am aware of some artists, but just so that we have a better understanding, we would be looking at artists in a variety of genre from rock right through to classical, I suppose?

4110             MS MOUSSEAU:  Absolutely.  Aboriginal artists across Canada are producing a wide variety of genre.  Everything, as mentioned, from hip hop to jazz, to classical, to rock, to pop, a lot of them are independently produced.  That's why there is ‑‑ unfortunately they don't necessarily all the time have the Cancon MAPL symbol on their back of their CD.  So there's research involved in getting, as I said, that information to us, and that's why there's sort of that discrepancy with your database, I believe, at the commission.  I think ‑‑ I hope ‑‑ does that answer your question?

4111             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And the artist ‑‑ yes, it's ‑‑ I imagine, too, that that same issue comes into play with other organizations such as FACTOR or other organizations where the classification is also being discussed, so that Aboriginal artists are classified according to their genre of music as opposed to being an Aboriginal artist.  Is that also a problem in terms of other organizations, like FACTOR, or any of the others?

4112             MS MOUSSEAU:  I'm not sure ‑‑

4113             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Are there getting ‑‑ in other words, are they being included as Canadian artists appropriately in other areas like FACTOR?

4114             MS MOUSSEAU:  I would think not because how are they possibly getting exposure if not through Aboriginal Voices Radio?  There isn't the distribution.  They aren't getting the commercial airplay.  They're not getting any media coverage.  There's not a lot of buzz.  If they're playing clubs, you know, they're slogging it away in these little tiny clubs, and maybe they're not getting the opportunity to come into FACTOR.

4115             Coming into Toronto, for example, for FACTOR meetings is a pretty expensive endeavour.  I don't think an Aboriginal artist from a small community may necessarily be able to do that.  So Aboriginal Voices Radio, as I see it, is the best vehicle for Aboriginal musicians to get their music heard nationally ‑‑

4116             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And then start the process?

4117             MS MOUSSEAU:  ‑‑ as well as on mainstream ‑‑

4118             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And can start the process that way?

4119             MS MOUSSEAU:  Absolutely.

4120             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And we're talking about artists singing or playing ‑‑ well, let's take singing; obviously playing something else, but the singing in both and, of course, if they're singing opera in Italian or German, but also Aboriginal languages?

4121             MS MOUSSEAU:  Yes.  Yeah, we actually play Aboriginal music songs in Aboriginal languages played by Aboriginal musicians right now.

4122             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Is it the majority of songs would be in English or in Aboriginal languages?

4123             MS MOUSSEAU:  The majority ‑‑

4124             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  How does it break down?

4125             MS MOUSSEAU:  Yeah, the majority of the songs right now, I believe, are in English and that's because I ‑‑ I believe that Aboriginal artists are concerned about becoming commercially viable.  In order to do that, they want to sing in English.  More people will understand that.

4126             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Of course.

4127             MS MOUSSEAU:  Again with AVR, we have an opportunity to play those Aboriginal languages, those Aboriginal songs.  Perhaps you might encourage more of our artists to start, again, singing in their original languages.

4128             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That's sort of my point when saying ‑‑ I'm not talking about the 2 percent, but it is ‑‑ a component of the mandate of AVR is bringing that exposure but also that was access for the rest of Canada to artists singing in Aboriginal languages.

4129             MS MOUSSEAU:  Yeah.  I mean we hit our 2 percent to requirement, but that's not why we play the music.  The songs are fantastic, and they get ‑‑ include not just in those sections of our Aboriginal music programming, but it's also included in our main play lists.

4130             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  A couple of other follow‑up questions from your discussion with Vice‑Chair Arpin, you mentioned the two‑hour national talk show.  Would it ‑‑ which would appear to be an open‑line show because I think people will be calling in, and that was your point in terms of a discussion about Regina as well.  Do you have or will you have mechanisms in place to ensure that you comply with the Commission's policy on open‑line programming?

4131             MR. HENNESSY:  Yes, the production facilities will be able to monitor delay the broadcast.  There will be a producer in place to monitor content and make sure that we're within guidelines.

4132             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  A producer in Toronto?  Would that be the ‑‑

4133             MR. HENNESSY:  That will be the hub for the program.

4134             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Right.

4135             MR. HENNESSY:  But as I pointed out with the technology we've got, we'll be able to remote ‑‑ we can bring a guest in.  We could have the mayor of Regina discussing an issue, specifically bring him into the studio and be able to control his levels, monitor, run the delay and everything else remotely but still have the impact of having that person live on the air.

4136             MR. WOOD:  Also ‑‑

4137             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And local residents in Regina ‑‑ sorry, Mr. Wood.  You wanted to add something?

4138             MR. WOOD:  No, that's ‑‑ I'm sorry.  I was just going to say one of the most important components of a talk show is the person who screens the calls.

4139             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yes.

4140             MR. WOOD:  So as the calls come in, somebody at headquarters will be screening the calls, not only for appropriateness to the subject, but for balance and to ensure that all points of view have a chance to be aired.  So we definitely will provide for that.

4141             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And local residents here would use a ‑‑

4142             MR. WOOD:  A 1‑800 line.

4143             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  ‑‑ 1‑800 number?

4144             MR. WOOD:  Yes.

4145             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  You also discussed the website program descriptions, and I think you indicated to my colleague that there were some descriptions that were to be added.  And in order to have a complete picture of the program descriptions for our purposes, could you supply us with the program descriptions and ‑‑ so we don't have to wait for the website?

4146             MS MOUSSEAU:  Absolutely.  I can provide you either a hardcopy or digital copy by the end of the day or ‑‑ whatever, by the week, whatever ‑‑ your choice, whatever you'd like.

4147             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.

4148             And just my last question is I hate ‑‑ Mr. Hennessy ‑‑ Miss ‑‑ do you want to pick up on that timing question, counsel?  Thank you.  Speaking of timing, I just wanted to get back to your "quickly as possible", Mr. Hennessy.

4149             And thanks to your discussion this morning, I think we have a better understanding of how you see this service, as Mr. Cardinal so eloquently said at the beginning of the discussion, a service ‑‑ an AVR without Regina is difficult for you to understand.  It's also important to ‑‑ for us to understand how the service would really fulfil the needs of the Regina audience and listeners.

4150             And so I come back to the question of ‑‑ I think I understand the thesis of how the local service would develop over time, but in terms of this being an application for frequency in the Regina market, could I ask you again to give us perhaps a more precise sense of when you feel that the morning show will be a Regina morning show, if I can put it that way, and the rest of the grid would in fact ‑‑ in addition to the talk show being a national show and the other national shows available, the concept of a Regina AVR service would be a reality?  Can you give us a better sense of the "quickly as possible"?

4151             MR. HILL:  I could comment on that, Commissioner.  I mean this ‑‑ it's a projection, and if I was to lay odds, I would say that by the end of a one‑year period of being granted the licence that we would be able to achieve pretty much the quality that we intend to.

4152             And I base that upon the fact that I've been on the board for a couple of years and I've seen great strides forward under not the best conditions.  And I think that we have an extremely talented team in place, that it's ‑‑ if I could, I think it's the best team that AVR's had so far.  Although there was a lot of talents that, you know, got us to this point, but we've tried to put a team in place right now that can move us on to the next level.  And from my awareness, I think that ‑‑ I mean I'm very happy with the way things are going at this point.

4153             And we've given you a conservative, I guess, projection on what we're going to do, but we're quite confident ‑‑ and we do that on purpose.  You know, we want to give you something that you can have a great confidence in.  But from what I know personally about ‑‑ you know, about AVR and the things that we're working on, I have a very high level of confidence that we're going to be able to, you know, deliver on what I would call, you know, the top programming that we could very quickly.

4154             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Mr. Hill.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

4155             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you.

4156             I just have a few questions.  Would you agree to a COL that you would not solicit local advertising?

4157             MR. HILL:  Yes, we would.

4158             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And given your high level of confidence, Mr. Hill, would you agree to a COL that you will be producing 30 hours a week of locally‑produced programming by the end of year two of the licence period?

4159             MR. HILL:  We will agree to the conditions of licence that you think are appropriate and we'll work vigorously to meet those.  And I want to say that we take these things extremely seriously and ‑‑

4160             THE CHAIRPERSON:  As do we.

4161             MR. HILL:  Yes.

4162             MR. WOOD:  Commissioner, if I could just respond to the condition of licence for local advertising?  In the event that AVR reaches the threshold that would enable us to do local advertising, we think that ‑‑ we would hope that the Commission would keep in mind that there are probably emerging Aboriginal businesses that might want to advertise on AVR.  That's the only comment I'll make.

4163             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, I thought your model was sponsorship, and that's a totally different issue.

4164             MR. WOOD:  Well, it's ‑‑ whether it's ‑‑ whether you're calling it sponsorship or whether you're calling it advertising, within your regulation, effectively if there's a condition there that says we can't do that, then we shut out local advertisers who might want to advertise on the radio station, or sponsors.

4165             THE CHAIRPERSON:   Well, I don't know ‑‑

4166             MR. HENNESSY:  It's not our ‑‑

4167             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Hennessy...?

4168             MR. HENNESSY:  It's not our intention to have a retail sales force on the street competing with the commercial broadcasters.  Our focus is to generate funding to develop the network from those alternate sources that I pointed out, but the ‑‑

4169             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So on the understanding that sponsorship is not included in the concept of local advertising, will you agree to a COL that you would not solicit local advertising?  You're fully aware of the allegations of the fragility of this market.

4170             MR. HILL:  We'll agree to your conditions of licence and comply with them.

4171             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And you will agree to a condition of licence that by the end of year two of the licensing term, you will be here and producing 32 hours a week of locally produced programming?

4172             MR. HILL:  If that is the decision of the Commission, yes, we will.

4173             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, will you agree to that or not?

4174             MR. HILL:  We would.

4175             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

4176             And as to your issue, Mr. Wood, of emerging businesses, I don't know if you heard this morning that SIGA, Saskatchewan Indian Gaming Association, has earned 40 million in profits, net profits.  And that, then, goes to my question to you, Mr. Hennessy.  Is there no thought of seeking out sponsorships from some of the not emerging, but already existing, very strong First Nation businesses in the West?

4177             MR. HENNESSY:  Absolutely.  Those are the types of organizations that we would want to talk to.  We have worked with, based on our ‑‑

4178             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Have you gone to Peace Hills Trust in Alberta?

4179             MR. HENNESSY:  No, we've been dealing with Ontario Lottery and Gaming Commission and with the casino ‑‑ or Casino Rama.

4180             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, yeah.

4181             MR. HENNESSY:  We've been dealing with them and they ‑‑ now again, there is a situation where they have not sponsored the program, but they have participated in programs dealing with addiction to gambling and have also purchased a campaign regarding responsibility in gambling.  So that's sort of a bit of a grey issue as to what is advertising.  It's not ‑‑

4182             THE CHAIRPERSON:  It's indeed unfortunate that you have received the opposition of the La Ronge Band which owns one of the very ‑‑ I'm going to say probably one of the top businesses in Saskatchewan, and that you've lost the confidence of the Prince Albert Grand Council because they also own one of the top ten businesses in Saskatchewan, so it's a ‑‑ it's unfortunate.

4183             At page 5 of your production of your presentation today, you've made this assertion that Canadians from coast to coast overwhelmingly approve of an Aboriginal national radio service, and I want you to review that assertion given the questions that Mr. Doering asked.  And if you look at page 29 of what he asked, I think you should be careful in using that assertion.  If you notice, what he said is, "I would like to ask you some questions about a concept for a new radio station in your city."

4184             Now, if you can tell me where it refers to an Aboriginal radio network, I would accept your assertion.  However, I only see three questions that he asked, and none of them refer to a national Aboriginal network.  So the demand, I agree, in Regina is high for an Aboriginal radio station.  And I wanted to talk a little bit ‑‑ I'm sorry, I'm not giving you time.

4185             MR. WOOD:  Commissioner, I'd just make a comment that we'd be more than pleased to follow up with a statement on that from Mr. Doering.

4186             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah.  Well, unless there were other questions, it's difficult to see the basis for his conclusion.

4187             I wanted to talk what about I call reinventing the wheel and I'm having some concerns, as you may have heard yesterday about that too, not in relation to yourselves but in relation to other issues.

4188             Do you have any relation with APTN?  Because they have a terrific news‑gathering machine already in force.  Have you tried to set up any cooperative arrangements with them?

4189             MR. HILL:  Madam Chair, to tell you the truth, we've been so engaged in the initiatives before us and the challenges before us as far as getting our stations on the air, that we haven't had the opportunity.  We've certainly agreed that it is ‑‑

4190             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Because they've got a lot of resources, you know, in terms of people in the North and ‑‑

4191             MR. HILL:  Yes, yes.  And we've always thought that once we get to a certain point, that ‑‑ and that's the relationship building part and looking for partnerships and so forth where we can, I guess, mutually benefit from these relationships that we would do that.  But I guess we saw a sequence, and we were very much focused on getting our stations on the air and meeting our commitments.

4192             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And they also have ‑‑ Mr. Wood, they have a national talk show, and it would make imminent sense for me that ‑‑ if you would rebroadcast it, and simply because APTN sometimes doesn't have the station on the ‑‑ the spot on the dial under 20, I mean it makes sense to me that that would achieve some of your objective, and then you could build into developing your own in ‑‑ rather than redoing something.

4193             MR. WOOD:  Yes, I think that's absolutely correct but I also think there's such a pent up demand to express points of view ‑‑

4194             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah.

4195             MR. WOOD:  ‑‑ from different regions of the country that ‑‑ and also, radio does deliver the component of access to our service on free over‑the‑air radio, so it's available to people who might not have access in certain workplace locations or, for example, in their vehicle.  There are a lot of programs that they wouldn't be able to access that are on APTN, and likewise.

4196             So if we were running the APTN service, it's ‑‑ it would certainly be a benefit to us, but it ‑‑ our programming would be of benefit to them as well.

4197             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, I agree.

4198             MR. WOOD:  They receive a significant amount of revenue through cable fees and I think it goes with the territory that, if you have the revenue, you can generate high quality programming.

4199             And when AVR completes its financing and revenue plans, it too will provide high quality programming, but we certainly think there is merit in meeting with Mr. Larose and his staff and talking about those possible synergies.

4200             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And in terms of your library, it also seems to me like you're reinventing the wheel because, when you first appeared in front of us in Toronto, your panel consisted of Mr. Dave McLeod of NCI, one of the pre‑eminent ‑‑ I'm going to say ‑‑ experts on Aboriginal music in Canada, and he does the top 20 every week and certainly has been around Aboriginal music forever.  And I'm sure his library, if you cooperated, would ‑‑ could also build ‑‑ you could build together.

4201             Ms Mosseau, you wanted to ‑‑

4202             UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Turn your mic on.

4203             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Like, I just constantly hear rebuilding, and it seems to me cooperation would be a far better way to go.

4204             MS MOUSSEAU:  If I can talk first about APTN?  APTN is an amazing channel.  It is ‑‑ it's absolutely needed to happen here in Canada, but right now ‑‑ at least in my opinion, and I think that's the opinion of most people that watch the shows that they have.  It tends to be very North‑centric.  They deal a lot with Canada's north and reserve communities, small communities' issues that they have to deal with on a daily basis.  Aboriginal Voices Radio is focusing on the urban Aboriginals.

4205             So right now when we look at creating our talk shows, we have to look at issues that are most affecting the urban Aboriginals.  And then, you know, perhaps in the future when we can look at a larger collaboration, when we can ‑‑ instead of separating urban Aboriginals, reserve Aboriginals, Inuit, the North, and the different provinces, we can end up in a position where we're all together as one.  And at that point APTN and AVR working together is ‑‑ it makes logical sense but, right now, we have to look at what our mandate is, and that is serving Aboriginal ‑‑ the urban Aboriginal.

4206             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

4207             You now have two minutes to convince us.

4208             MS BENNETT:  Sorry, could I just address a couple of housekeeping matters?  Sorry, just a few quick clarifications.  You said today that you would ensure that no less than 2 percent of all programming during a broadcast week would be spoken‑word programming in an Aboriginal Canadian language.  Is that a commitment by COL?

4209             MR. HILL:  That is a commitment we're prepared to make.

4210             MS BENNETT:  Okay, by condition of licence?

4211             MR. HILL:  Yes.

4212             MS BENNETT:  Okay, thanks.  Now, earlier you talked with Commissioner Arpin about filing financial projections.  My understanding is that there are no financial projections on the file, so could you file those today, maybe if you've got them with you, right after your presentation?

4213             MR. HILL:  Yes, we have them with us and we can file them today.

‑‑‑ Undertaking / Engagement

4214             MS BENNETT:  Okay.  And similarly with the program descriptions, if you could file those at the same time?  Okay.  And the last part was documentation on the availability of funds.  Would you have that information available today as well?

4215             MR. HILL:  The availability of funds, what was that referring to?

4216             MS BENNETT:  Well, you had a discussion with Commissioner Arpin about the various sources of funding that you are projecting, and I think you spoke with him about the possibility of filing some documentation ‑‑

4217             MR. HILL:  Oh, okay.

4218             MS BENNETT:  ‑‑ with respect to those sources?

4219             MR. HILL:  Yes.  Yes, but I don't think that we have all of that information today, but we can file that very quickly ‑‑ oh, we can?  Oh, okay.  Well, I guess ‑‑

4220             MS BENNETT:  Well ‑‑

4221             MR. HILL:  I ‑‑ I'm sorry, I stand corrected.  We do have that information with us and we can file that.

4222             MS BENNETT:  Okay, great.  Thank you very much.

4223             MS MOUSSEAU:  And I'll get that other document to you right away.  I just have to go print it.

4224             MS BENNETT:  Okay, thank you.  That's it.

4225             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now two minutes.

4226             MR. HILL:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

4227             I'd like to, I guess, talk about the importance of AVR and then, if we have time in the two minutes, I'd like to ask Lewis Cardinal to finish up.

4228             The mission of AVR is to improve the lives of Aboriginal people, and we think that our role through radio broadcasting is a very important one to do that.  There's ‑‑ currently exists a market gap in Regina.  There is ‑‑ there is no radio broadcast that's specifically targeted to the Aboriginal community here, so that's one thing that we believe is very important in this consideration.

4229             AVR, in being virtually 100 percent Aboriginal, we believe that we are one of the leaders and will be one of the leaders in helping emerging Aboriginal talent, both spoken‑word talent and music talent.

4230             The dialogue that AVR would be able to provide regarding just a wide array of Aboriginal issues is extremely important to this community, and not only to hear the dialogue, but to participate in the dialogue as well.

4231             We would like to respectfully remind the Commission that it is in the Broadcast Act to provide for such a service as ‑‑ when that becomes possible.

4232             We will add to the diversity of the broadcasting here in Regina.  We are committed to preserving, protecting and promoting Aboriginal languages.  We believe that's extremely important to the Aboriginal communities across the country, as well as extremely important to the communities that are in the area here.

4233             And we don't believe that we're going to negatively impact any of the incumbents in any significant way, so I guess essentially that we believe we're an important piece ‑‑ part of improving lives of Aboriginals here in Regina.  And Lewis, if ‑‑

4234             MR. CARDINAL:  We're trying to reconnect our communities with each other.  I just ‑‑ as a part of our historical understanding of Canada, we know that the major urban centres across Canada were built upon these areas where indigenous peoples gathered, where many nations came together and celebrated and traded and did various kinds of business together.

4235             Regina, if it is not a part of the AVR network, will be a gaping hole for us because we find, and we know, that the importance of the voice of the Aboriginal and indigenous people here in this area is a very important dialogue.  Our elders are telling us that we have to take the opportunities and create opportunities for the Aboriginal people to have a chance to communicate again, as we did in times of old; gathering together and sharing our stories and learning from each other.  That's what AVR is about.  It's about relationships and it's about relationship building.

4236             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Hill.

4237             We will now take a 15‑minute break by my watch.  Set your time.  It is 25 to, so that will mean 10 to.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1035 / Suspension à 1035

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1050 / Reprise à 1050

4238             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.  I want to welcome you.  I want to, first, say that the time that we spent on AVR is ‑‑ may have seemed an extraordinary amount of time for one applicant.  However, we have three applications from AVR on this hearing; one for Regina, one for Saskatoon, and the third, their renewal.

4239             And the evidence we obtained was for the purposes of all three applications, so I don't wish anybody to feel that there was anything untoward about that time taken in questioning.

4240             Madam Secretary...?

4241             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

4242             We are now ready to proceed with item 16 on the agenda which is an application by Natotawin Broadcasting Inc. to amend the licence of the Native radio program undertaking CJLR‑FM, La Ronge, Saskatchewan.

4243             The licensee proposes to add an FM transmitter at Regina to broadcast the programming of CJLR‑FM La Ronge in order to serve the population of Regina.  The transmitter would operate on frequency 90.3 megahertz, channel 212C1 with an effective radiated power of 43,000 watts non‑directional antenna, antenna height of 190 metres.

4244             Appearing for the applicant is Ms Deborah Charles, who will introduce her colleague.  You will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.  Ms Charles...?

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

4245             MS CHARLES:  Good morning.  (Native language spoken).

4246             My name is Deborah Charles.  I'm the chief executive officer for Missinipi Broadcasting and I'm here making a presentation to the Commission today.

4247             My colleague is Darrell Prokopie.  He's the director of sales and marketing, and we're here today to present our application.

4248             THE SECRETARY:  Please go ahead with your presentation.

4249             MS CHARLES:  Okay.

4250             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Can I get Darrell's last name again, please?  I didn't quite hear it.

4251             MR. PROKOPIE:  Certainly.  It's P‑R‑O‑K‑O‑P‑I‑E, pronounced Prokopie.

4252             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

4253             MS CHARLES:  Tansi, edlanete, bonjour, good morning, ladies and gentlemen of the CRTC.

4254             First, I want to thank the Commission for giving me the opportunity to be here to speak to MBC's application for an RM rebroadcast transmitter to serve the Aboriginal listening audience of Regina, Saskatchewan.

4255             We at MBC believe that the quality news and informational spoken word in Aboriginal languages, programming and entertainment by way of our Aboriginal musicials and performance artists are two of the most important ways to expose urban Canadian listening audiences to Aboriginal culture, philosophy, ideas, opinions, music and artists, and hence expand their appreciation of Canada's diverse cultures and peoples.  That is why those elements are here ‑‑ are the core of our broadcast programs.

4256             MBC feels that the objectives for Canada's broadcasting systems are adequately addressed in the Broadcasting Act in that it states that programming and music should be predominantly Canadian and that the listeners should be provided with a varied and comprehensive programming from a variety of sources.

4257             MBC feels that the ‑‑ Canada's broadcasters have sorely neglected the Aboriginal variety of programming and have failed competently to respond to the needs of growing urban Aboriginal demographics, both here in Regina and elsewhere.

4258             The approval of our application so that they may provide Aboriginal language radio service to Regina area will go some way in redressing this oversight.

4259             MBC feels that the MBC/Natotawin application for a rebroadcast transmitter to carry our programs to the Aboriginal and non‑Aboriginal listeners of Regina is appropriate, and it is viable and, just as importantly, a culturally respectful response to a known need for a greater Aboriginal variety in quality radio programming.

4260             The Canadian Broadcast Act states that all programming should be of a high standard, balanced on matters of public concern, relevant to local communities, and reflect Canada's rich cultural diversity.

4261             MBC/Natotawin believes that in many respects it actually has been raised ‑‑ raising and indeed establishing the bar on the standards of the radio broadcasting relevant to the Aboriginal people on this ‑‑ of this country.

4262             I know that MBC is unique in its dedication to addressing those concerns relevant to the Aboriginal communities in ‑‑ of this province.

4263             It is MBC's view that it is only fitting that the CRTC would regulate Aboriginal radio with respect to the content offered in a manner similar to the regulation in place for non‑Aboriginal broadcasting undertakings, but we also believe that there must be an appreciation of inherent cultural differences between the Aboriginal and mainstream segments of society and how our people perceive and interpret what is offered to them over the airways.

4264             We at MBC seek to refine and improve the standards of broadcasting content directed towards our people, not to dismiss, abrogate or lower them.  Most importantly, we know that Aboriginal people want to hear Aboriginal broadcasters speaking and understanding their own language, providing them with radio programs that they can relate to and easily comprehend.

4265             Respectfully our application for a licence for a rebroadcast transmitter carries with it our commitment to honour in all aspects of news and information content and Aboriginal language usage and promotion of Aboriginal artists.

4266             I do not wish to speak at length about the quality of MBC's radio service in the short time available, but I have made provisions today to all the members of the Commission to receive a copy of my speaking notes here, and also other notes that clearly outline our high standard of service and historical commitment of MBC to the provision of the best of radio, all listeners Aboriginal and otherwise.

4267             Specifically MBC by its application makes the following commitments and guarantees:  MBC guarantees the Commission the daily provision of Aboriginally relevant newscasts, information and entertainment content.  MBC guarantees the Commission that it will provide significantly more dedicated Aboriginal language programming and the promotion of and airplay of Aboriginal artists and performance ‑‑ performers in the daily programs than any other radio station in the province can, could or would provide.

4268             MBC guarantees the Commission that it will provide these culturally and linguistically relevant broadcasting programs to the Aboriginal community of Regina in a professional and timely manner.

4269             MBC guarantees the Commission that it will ensure the inclusion of content of specific concern to Regina's Aboriginal residents and will foster ties with the Aboriginal community for its wellbeing and benefit.

4270             MBC guarantees the Commission that it will uphold to any ‑‑ all rules of the Broadcasting Act including a commitment to cover, fulfil the Canadian content requirements.

4271             With respect to five issues that the Commission stated they wished to address in their correspondence as at October 16th, two ‑‑ 2006, I received a letter and I'll go through them in point form the way it was written to me.

4272             In addition to the English, MBC utilizes three main spoken Aboriginal languages used in Saskatchewan; Cree, Dene and Michif in its program content and provides over 20 regularly scheduled dedicated Aboriginal language programming on a weekly basis.

4273             MBC also broadcasts Aboriginal language features throughout the day and during weekend programmings ‑‑ programs.  Our Monday through Friday Aboriginal language program ‑‑ programs are the daily Missinipi Achimowin program hosted and presented in the Cree and Michif languages, and the Dene ‑‑ and the daily Missinipi Dene Honi programming presented in the Dene language.  Both Achimowin and Dene Honi programs are inclusive of hourly newscasts, summaries that are inclusive of all local, regional, provincial, national and international news and are delivered in Cree, Dene and Michif in ‑‑ for our audience.

4274             Our Aboriginal language programming ‑‑ programs are also inclusive of open‑line presentations where listeners can voice their opinions in Aboriginal languages on a broad spectrum of issues.  The Achimowin and Dene Honi programs also deliver intensive informational content on topics that cover the gamut of Canadian Aboriginal listeners' interests in health, education, environment, justice, culture, languages, history and safety to major and minor political issues along with numerous other audience concerns.

4275             MBC has also hosted and aired hundreds of open‑line broadcast and talk show programming using Aboriginal language in the different dialects and provides in-depth, on location programming for community gatherings and events of importance to our audience.

4276             Through these and other distinctive programming approaches, MBC offers a platform for all ages to express themselves in their language and their dialects, and to be heard from elders to youth.

4277             MBC also presents its word of the day programming several times a day throughout the week, giving listeners the ‑‑ an opportunity to come to know, understand Aboriginal language used in everyday speech.

4278             MBC is prepared to offer expanded language programming to other Aboriginal language used in Saskatchewan as the opportunity presents itself.

4279             I'll just give the floor to him.

4280             MR. PROKOPIE:  Thank you.

4281             Aboriginal language vocal music.  MBC sponsors and promotes Aboriginal artists through consistent airplay 24/7 and significantly supports Aboriginal musicians and singers in the way that most matters, via our playlist.

4282             MBC will continue to promote Aboriginal artists to the people of Saskatchewan as we are the only broadcaster in the province that has demonstrated a commitment to Aboriginal talent by the simplest, most logical means available, and that is by playing their music for our listeners.

4283             Almost a quarter of music played on a daily basis on MBC is by Aboriginal artists, many of whom are locally based.  MBC has provided Aboriginal artist in northern Saskatchewan with their first opportunities to record their music and has actively been the catalyst and vehicle of our musician sponsorship through the provision of talent showcases and public performances.

4284             MBC has hosted Aboriginal talent searches that have been simulcast on our network since 1994 and we have sponsored and broadcast the Voices of the North talent show, an Aboriginal talent showcase.  MBC's talent search top prize is studio time and the songs are then broadcast on MBC.

4285             Over 100 performers have benefited from MBC's support of developing artistry through talent searches and showcases.  Additionally, MBC has spent its entire operational history as a promoter of national Aboriginal recording and performance artists as a matter of cultural respect and dedication.

4286             The reality is that MBC is the main provider of access to an audience for many Aboriginal artists and cultural producers.  We have presented their talent to the Aboriginal and non‑Aboriginal listening audience in Saskatchewan's communities for over two decades.

4287             Moving on to cultural programming.  MBC has a culturally attuned 28‑member staff, including a news and Aboriginal language production staff of seven, all of whom are Aboriginal.  The majority of them speak Cree, Dene or Michif, and some speak more than one Aboriginal language.  For more than two decades MBC has employed the majority of Aboriginal speaking broadcasters in Saskatchewan.

4288             Two of our staff have been chosen as national Aboriginal role models in the past 12 years.  We have an honour roll of over 40 board members and over 100 broadcast personnel coming out of the cultural milieu of Aboriginal society who have served and contributed to the growth of MBC as an organization over the past 22 years.

4289             MBC has created a legacy of unique cultural and linguistic heritage and its operations to date represent a genuine success story for the Aboriginal people of Saskatchewan.

4290             Our cultural programming covers and reports in‑depth on everything from Aboriginal spirituality, folklore, legends and stories, to traditional medicine use and Aboriginal food preparation and survival skills, along with the inherent viewpoints, opinions, ideas, and philosophy that they all entail.

4291             We are the only broadcaster in Saskatchewan to consistently cover Aboriginal trappers conventions and also to speak to the events and happenings surrounding all Aboriginal fields of employment, both traditional and non‑traditional.  We cover language conferences, elders gatherings, Aboriginal political elections and Aboriginal sporting events on the local, regional, provincial, national and international level.

4292             As an example, MBC began reporting live with its own reporters from the International Indigenous Games more than a decade ago.  We do all of this with a heavy emphasis on Aboriginal language use and presentation both by our staff and by the Aboriginal persons with whom we are actively engaged with in covering the story.

4293             We at MBC are mandated and entrusted to bring Aboriginal culture, languages, ideas, heritage and their perspective to the people of Saskatchewan.  It is an obligation we take seriously.  MBC is the radio media outlet of choice for most Aboriginal communities as well as the primary source of information for and about numerous Aboriginal organizations and individuals, and is an active participant in the public promotion of Aboriginal intellectual capacity and growth throughout the medium of radio by way of news, information, philosophy, political and social opinion, music, arts and culture.

4294             Our projected audience.  MBC, by its very nature, is a non‑traditional broadcaster and we have always avoided excessive commercial style, promotional and glamorization of our service and operations.

4295             In each and every community, we have grown to serve ‑‑ in each community that we have grown to serve, we have relied on the word of mouth of the Moccasin Telegraph in building and growing our audience, thus we project our listener numbers to be low to nominal in the initial stages of providing our programs to the Regina listening audience.

4296             We do not expect to see major shifts in listener demographics.  Our experience to date indicates that there will be an evolving awareness of what MBC has to offer the Aboriginal and non‑Aboriginal listeners and that there will be a corresponding, reflective positive rise in the MBC listening audience numbers.  We anticipate having a minimum of 20,000 listeners by the third year of operation.

4297             In making these loose projections, MBC has taken into account the expanding Aboriginal population demographics presented by Stats Canada and have balanced that with other known quantities such as the strength of our Aboriginal entities and organizations in Regina, and the participation rate and contact with urban Aboriginal society that they have experienced.

4298             Next we move on to our anticipated revenue projections.  MBC anticipates minimal economic revenues to be derived from its establishment of the Regina rebroadcast transmitter during its first two years of operation.  MBC does hope to reach a positive revenue flow from advertising sales by the third to fourth year so as the cover costs of the rebroadcast transmitter installation and its ongoing operational expenses.

4299             MBC seize its ‑‑ sees its responsibility to providing a service to the Aboriginal audience of Regina regardless of revenues, though by the end of the third year, as stated, we do anticipate a close‑to‑break‑even prospect.

4300             MBC has no immediate plans to pursue advertising revenues through active solicitation as there are no plans in place to hire a sales representative to be based out of Regina.  MBC will continue to utilize its four‑person sales team based out of Prince Albert to service the advertising clients of MBC.

4301             To provide exact revenue increments at this time would be quite difficult as we feel that any immediate gains will be derived from clients purchasing the MBC radio network and not necessarily the local Regina market.  This is held true during past urban expansions such as North Battleford and most recently Saskatoon.

4302             There is also the reality that MBC has only so much air time to sell.  We're dealing with one clock.  Because MBC is many things to many people, we need to make our advertising available to all we serve.  The small community event in northern Saskatchewan is just as important to MBC as a huge retail event in an urban centre.

4303             Now, I did include some projections for you.  These are probably on the aggressive side as we move into the third year.  At the completion of year one, I've indicated approximately $30,000 in revenue.  Keep in mind, we currently are getting some advertising dollars out of the Regina market as we speak.  Most of them are provincial type clients, but the billing does come to Regina, so we currently ‑‑ like I say, we're not starting from a point zero situation.

4304             At the completion of year two I've doubled that figure to show $60,000 in anticipated revenue and the completion of year three is when we are hoping to cover off our hard costs that we would incur through this expansion through the establishment of technology and the ongoing operations.  So at year three, I did pen that in at $100,000.

4305             I will pass it back to Deborah for her closing statement.

4306             Thank you.

4307             MS CHARLES:  Thank you, Darrell.

4308             In closing, may I say to the Commission that MBC has also ‑‑ has laboured through more than 20 years in building a community based Aboriginal radio network utilize ‑‑ utilizing highly skilled Aboriginal broadcasters and linguists to serve our people, my people.  Through a measured study approach we are growing in a meaningful presence for the Aboriginal radio audience in Saskatchewan and we trust that that will happen here in Regina for our people, my people.  So thank you.

4309             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, and thank you for coming.

4310             I have a few questions for you, not that you didn't very completely and very well cover all of our issues raised in our notice.

4311             Now, do either one of you ‑‑ are either one of you involved in the programming side at all?

4312             MR. PROKOPIE:  Not to a great extent, but I'm sure between the two of us we could ‑‑

4313             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, subject to the fact that you're not the experts?

4314             MR. PROKOPIE:  Right.

4315             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We just wanted to know ‑‑ you have old time music on Saturday and Sunday nights.  Do you know what it is?  Is it old rock?  Old country?

4316             MR. PROKOPIE:  No, it's old classic country.  It's the George Jones, the Buck Owens, the traditional country.

4317             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mmhmm, okay.

4318             MR. PROKOPIE:  The Saturday mornings, yes, and Sundays.

4319             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah.  And then you have on Wednesday night '70s and '80s music.  What kind of music is that?

4320             MR. PROKOPIE:  That is primarily of the rock nature.  That's more rock and roll.

4321             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

4322             MR. PROKOPIE:  And again, if I can maybe just interject, because MBC is many things to many people.  We do have a 5 to 95 year‑old demographic, so our programming tries to incorporate something for everybody over the course of our broadcast week.

4323             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you do broadcast Aboriginal language music?

4324             MR. PROKOPIE:  Yes, we do.

4325             THE CHAIRPERSON:  How much would you say ‑‑ how much of it would you say you do out of the total music?

4326             MR. PROKOPIE:  Oh, I would really be shooting blind.

4327             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

4328             MR. PROKOPIE:  Over the course of a day, you know, I'm quite confident in saying that probably in the neighbourhood of half a dozen songs would be sung in the Aboriginal language, and quite often those are aired during our Aboriginal languages programming.  Not always; they could be requested during one of our two request shows that we have each day but probably in the neighbourhood of half a dozen per day.

4329             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And are those all Canadian, the Aboriginal songs, the language songs?

4330             MR. PROKOPIE:  Yes, they are.

4331             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Now, right now, what kind of news coverage do you have of Regina?  Do you have a reporter down here?

4332             MR. PROKOPIE:  We do not.  There has been some discussions with some organizations and individuals to have them supply us information.  I know there are plans, once we get up and running and the Moccasin Telegraph takes effect and there is an awareness of ultimately putting some stringers or people into Regina to cover off those events, but discussions have started.  Nothing has been laid down in ‑‑ in ink as of yet, as we don't know where we sit.

4333             THE CHAIRPERSON:  When I saw this question that staff asked me to read, I was asking myself whether Saskatoon is really more the ‑‑ Saskatoon/Prince Albert/La Ronge is more the ‑‑ what would I say?  The ‑‑ well, Saskatoon particularly, the political capital because the FSIN is there, and so I was sort of thinking that coverage of the legislature here would probably be secondary to ‑‑ of interest to your listeners.

4334             MR. PROKOPIE:  Of the provincial legislature?  Yes, probably it would be secondary to our audience.

4335             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah.

4336             MR. PROKOPIE:  If it was an FSIN Assembly that was being held here in Regina, we would be here as we were in Saskatoon just a week or so ago.

4337             THE CHAIRPERSON:  At the elections, right, yeah.

4338             MR. PROKOPIE:  Right.  We had two of our language announcers from La Ronge attend for the ‑‑ a few days and provide live programming for three hours each afternoon back to our audience in both the Cree and Dene languages.

4339             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And so the kind of programming that you would do about Regina would consist of when it would be of an issue or an event of importance to the First Nations community?

4340             MR. PROKOPIE:  Primarily, yes.  When ‑‑ it doesn't have to be necessarily a breaking news story or something that has dire consequences, but just a story of interest that is not maybe high on the list of newscasts that you may hear elsewhere.

4341             Certainly once our stringers come on board, we will have a ‑‑ you know, a thumb on the pulse, so to speak, to develop that.

4342             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you follow the powwow circuit at all?

4343             MR. PROKOPIE:  We are slowly developing that.  Powwow is a relatively new phenomenon in northern Saskatchewan.  Powwows were not anything that existed and then ‑‑ I would have to go to Deb's expertise on this, but going back ten years, you probably couldn't find a powwow north of Prince Albert.  Now they're starting to happen.

4344             We don't necessarily follow the circuit in terms of providing programming from, but we certainly get involved through sponsorship of and promotion of.

4345             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mmhmm, okay.  Now, your language programming, you say over 20 hours and the daily Missinipi Achimowin program is from 1 to 3 ‑‑ I've got your schedule here from the site ‑‑ Monday through Friday, am I correct?

4346             MR. PROKOPIE:  (Nods head yes.)

4347             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And then the daily Missinipi Dene Honi program, and that is ‑‑ I'm losing it.  I can't find it ‑‑ 3 to 4?

4348             MR. PROKOPIE:  That is correct.  I may also ‑‑ should interject.  That ‑‑ what you've just read, that's the network.  So the entire network receives those three hours of programming.  We do have the capability and we do split‑feed the far north communities, the Athabasca Basin which is basically Dene people ‑‑ speaking people, and we do provide them with their own special hour, and that happens between 2 and 3 each day.  So we split‑feed ‑‑ the last half of the Cree show, we basically switch over and we offer Dene programming to the far north, the Athabasca region.

4349             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  So Ray Campbell would start, in fact, an hour earlier?

4350             MR. PROKOPIE:  Correct.

4351             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And provide the two hours for the Dene area?

4352             MR. PROKOPIE:  Correct.

4353             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And then ‑‑ I was fascinated by this.  You give the news in all ‑‑ in English, Cree, Michif and Dene?

4354             MR. PROKOPIE:  Yeah, we do.

4355             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you do it by split feed or how do you do it?

4356             MR. PROKOPIE:  No.

4357             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is ‑‑

4358             MR. PROKOPIE:  That ‑‑ that's network, network news.  So at 1 o'clock when our Cree show comes on board, they would do a top‑of‑the‑hour newscast that, you know, may be very similar to what was done during the 12 o'clock English informational hour.

4359             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

4360             MR. PROKOPIE:  And they'll read that news in the Cree language, and then that happens again for the Dene hour.

4361             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And in both the Vern Lewis and Mike Durocher hour and the Missinipi Dene Honi hour, there's music and speaking?

4362             MR. PROKOPIE:  Yes, there's music and speaking.  The speaking can be anything from information whether it be again an event or a situation or a story that's out there, to just things of cultural relevance.  It's not necessarily chalked full of hard hitting information all the time.  It's of relevance to the audience that it's speaking to.

4363             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And would you have an idea of the percentage of music and spoken word in those hours?

4364             MS CHARLES:  I'd say 40 percent.

4365             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You have to put your mic on.

4366             MS CHARLES:  I'd say 40 percent in an hour.

4367             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Forty percent music?

4368             MS CHARLES:  Yeah.

4369             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, mmhmm.  And then you have the 9 to 11 morning Cree on Sunday, and that's entirely in Cree?

4370             MR. PROKOPIE:  Cree and with some Michif thrown in there, yes.

4371             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, okay, okay.  And you do broadcast a hundred and ‑‑ 168 hours week?

4372             MR. PROKOPIE:  We do.

4373             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What do you do at night?  What's your programming from midnight on?

4374             MR. PROKOPIE:  It's in‑house voice tracking, utilizing our own talent that we have on staff.

4375             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, mmhmm.  So is that the only voice tracking you've got from midnight to six or is it ‑‑

4376             MR. PROKOPIE:  No, that is it.

4377             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And any syndicated programming?

4378             MR. PROKOPIE:  We do, for our youth, carry a syndicated dance show on Saturday nights as part of our Saturday night house party for the youth and we do subscribe to a syndicated dance program that airs, I believe, between 9 and 10 on Saturday evenings.

4379             We have syndicated programming ‑‑ Paul Harvey, you know, as an example ‑‑ over our noon information package, so we have a couple of items that are syndicated, yes.

4380             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mmhmm, okay.  Now, you've heard AVR and how they describe their programming.  Have you ever listened online to AVR?

4381             MS CHARLES:  No.

4382             MR. PROKOPIE:  I've tried.

4383             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh.  And ‑‑

4384             MR. PROKOPIE:  And no, I have not.

4385             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Have not been successful, okay.  Could you explain how you believe you are different from them, if you think you are?

4386             MR. PROKOPIE:  Well, I guess it starts at the grassroots.  MBC was created by the people of northern Saskatchewan, to fulfil a need that they saw was lacking in terms of the information that they were getting on a regular basis, who was giving them that information, was it coming from a First Nations perspective or was it not.  In the past, it was not.

4387             So MBC basically ‑‑ we don't make a move without our audience, the people that we serve telling us to make that move, and they tell us by way of e‑mail, phone calls.  They tell us by way of the delegates that they send to our annual general meeting from which our 11 board of directors is elected.  So they certainly pass on their concerns and what they would like MBC to evolve into through our board members, and that's passed on down through our CEO and senior management.

4388             We are very much focused on the people that we serve.  The information is of most importance.  MBC is about bringing people to the people.  We don't wish to be anything more than we've currently applied for, and that's a provincial network to service the Aboriginal population of Saskatchewan.  We're just ‑‑ we're ‑‑ Saskatchewan is our home.  The languages spoken are our languages, and those are the languages that we've mandated to protect and preserve through our form of medium.  Does that answer your question at all?

4389             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah, I think so, yeah.  Do you think ‑‑ well, what would be the impact on you if we gave you a rebroadcast licence here and if AVR were also given a licence?  What would be the impact on you?

4390             MR. PROKOPIE:  That's a tough question, and I don't really know the answer to that.  I believe initially, like anything new, there's always a rush to check out what's new, whether that be turning the dial or tuning in through the Internet.  I ‑‑ you know, certainly there will be a learning curve by the audience and ultimately ‑‑ you know, they will ultimately decide what is going to best suit them.

4391             We feel that, again, through our programming, through our roots, through our governance that, you know, over time, we will ‑‑ we will be the Aboriginal broadcaster of Saskatchewan.

4392             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And I have asked myself I must say, time and time again if there is a difference between a "northern or rural Aboriginal culture and an urban Aboriginal culture", and I am ‑‑ I'm on two sides of this.  It seems to me the thing that brings you together is the same culture as you've always had, whether you're urban or rural.

4393             On the other hand, it may be easier to retain your culture if you are on a reserve or in northern Saskatchewan, north of Prince Albert, but do you think there is a different culture?  I don't ‑‑

4394             MR. PROKOPIE:  I don't know if the culture is different so much as how often and regularly the culture has gone back to or utilized.  I think the culture tends to maybe be lost in the urban centres because you don't walk down the street and see your friends and your neighbours who are speaking to you within the language.

4395             So I think quite often First Nations people who relocate from the smaller communities or northern communities tend to climatize to the surroundings around them.  I know that's not necessarily what they wish to do, and it's very nice to hear the comments that we get at MBC, is "Oh, I just love tuning into MBC because I sit back and I'm at home."  You know, so whether they've ‑‑ they're now in Saskatoon but they've come from northern Saskatchewan, it does allow that connection to maintain.

4396             But to answer your question, I think there is some culture lost.  It's not by design; it's just by environment.

4397             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And your ‑‑ the reactions you've been receiving in Saskatoon ‑‑ and you talked about people leaving ‑‑ you know, leaving home and then going to Saskatoon.  What about the kids that are born in Saskatoon?  What's the reaction to your programming?

4398             MR. PROKOPIE:  Well, what we understand is we have the best youth programming out there, and I heard that many times just last week when I was in Saskatoon for the assembly.  I don't know how many youth we had walk past our trade show display and said, MBC rocks.  Love your Saturday night.  It's not my kind of music, but I know it's music that cannot easily be found out there through other radio networks and other forms unless you go, you know ‑‑ or download a bunch of your favourite music and, you know, then you would have what we play.  But we have a youth on‑air person who is very interactive with the audience, and the feedback is very, very positive from the youth of Saskatoon.

4399             Just coming up, I believe this weekend, out of our ‑‑ our Saturday night house party DJ will be in Saskatoon MCing and hosting an event for the youth of Saskatoon that's being put on by an organization.  And MBC has come on board through sponsorship and supply ‑‑ supplying some talent there to do the MC duties at the request of the organization.  So we feel that we're making great strides with the youth in Saskatoon.

4400             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So ‑‑ and then do you think once you got them hooked on the evening ‑‑ on the Saturday evening you can then take them further in terms of getting back to the ‑‑ their culture?  Like, how do you do that?

4401             MR. PROKOPIE:  Well, it's certainly the hope that ‑‑ you know, I don't know if we can take them back, but lest we never forget.  And, you know, we certainly do things that, again, because they're youth, you know, it ‑‑ there's still a culture that surrounds what they're doing and where they've come from.

4402             And everything we do keeps referring back to the culture and where you've come from, living a positive, healthy lifestyle, respecting your elders, whatever the message may be.  You know, we plug away.  It's that constant drip of water that wears away at the stone.

4403             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah.  And you were talking about the fact that your programming is sort of ‑‑ what's the word ‑‑ done based on demand.  So if you were down here, and I see on it ‑‑ I don't ‑‑ there's a ‑‑ on the fourth page of your presentation you were talking about Word of the Day and you say, "MBC is prepared to offer expanded language programming and other Aboriginal languages used in Saskatchewan as the opportunity presents itself."

4404             So the issue would be that somebody would e‑mail, write you or come to your meeting and say "I want programming in Saulteaux" or whatever ‑‑ Saulteaux, yeah ‑‑ and then you would try to do it.  Is that the concept?

4405             MR. PROKOPIE:  That's exactly the concept.  And as we speak here, you know, we're working towards even ‑‑ you know, barring some miracle that we don't get our application, we still plan on incorporating Saulteaux Word of the Day for our Saskatoon audiences.

4406             It's something that's been brought to our attention and it's something we're working towards and right now we're just trying to put the pieces in place and find out how we can best do it from a technical point of view.  And as ‑‑ so basically we are working towards incorporating the Saulteaux into our Word of the Day as we speak.

4407             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mmhmm.  Tell me about this foundation, the Missinipi Youth Foundation.  It's created by Missinipi?

4408             MS CHARLES:  Yes, it is and it was incorporated in 1998.  And what we did is we incorporated Missinipi Youth Foundation and we offered scholarships to First Nations/Aboriginal people to attend university, U of S, U of R, First Nations University Canada, to take journalism.

4409             Now, we also offer small local community radio stations.  We offer training programs in their respective communities and then they start their local radio stations at that level, and then most of the time it's on our transmitter.

4410             However, back to your question, yeah, we've incorporated that a while ago and we continue to do that and we continue to offer scholarships, and that's part of the Saturday night program that we offer to the youth as well.

4411             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So the money comes from your profits?  Is that the idea, and it's put into the foundation?

4412             MR. PROKOPIE:  Yeah.

4413             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And then the scholarships are given out?

4414             MR. PROKOPIE:  (Nods head yes.)

4415             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So to date, how many scholarships in journalism or broadcasting have you given out?

4416             MS CHARLES:  Gees, I don't have ‑‑

4417             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And any number ‑‑

4418             MS CHARLES:  ‑‑ a number on that.

4419             THE CHAIRPERSON:  How many did you give out last year?

4420             MS CHARLES:  Seven.  Seven each year, and when we first started, it was one or two or three.  I haven't kept track.  However, I do believe there's about eight of them with degrees now.  And then I have ‑‑ the three I offered this year will be completing their degrees, so it's growing.

4421             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And do you give them a job or does the APTN grab them?

4422             MS CHARLES:  It depends what broadcasting, if they further into television or radio or print.  However, there is some that come on board with APTN.  I'm also on the board there as well.  But, yeah, we've recruited some of the students from that initiation.

4423             MR. PROKOPIE:  And that is probably our ultimate goal and objective is our in‑house recruiting.  There ‑‑ we find quite often there is a lack of trained broadcasters with an Aboriginal background.  And because we used to have, and still to this day, continue to have some difficulty in securing professional talent, we thought, well, let's maybe help create them by offering these scholarships to post‑secondary students who are going into a communications/journalism type field.  That may give us a bit of a pool to draw from down the years, so there was some very selfish background behind that as well.  We were hoping to utilize that talent.

4424             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mmhmm.  Tell me, where are your offices?  Are they in La Ronge or on the reserve, on the band ‑‑

4425             MS CHARLES:  No, we're not on the reserve.  We're ‑‑ we got a head office and the ‑‑ in La Ronge on Industrial Drive.  We also have a sales and marketing office in Prince Albert.

4426             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Because what ‑‑ I was thinking that part of the advantage could be that you'd be tax free if you were on the reserve.  That would be an advantage for anybody in terms of recruitment, you know.

4427             MR. PROKOPIE:  It would, but it would challenge our governance, we believe.

4428             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.  I get your point, mmhmm.

4429             MR. PROKOPIE:  Again, our board is derived from members at large of the community, and to put ourselves with ‑‑ within a First Nation or a community, even if the ‑‑ even if it is a reality, the perception would be that ‑‑ where there's an affiliation that perhaps we could be nudged or pushed into a certain direction, so we've never aligned ourselves with any organization or group in that manner.

4430             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mmhmm, you and NCI.  Now, MBC Television, I didn't realize there was a television portion of it, and it tells stories and shows to ‑‑ you know, shows to maintain culture.  What do they actually do?

4431             MS CHARLES:  I'll just get ‑‑ give you a bit of history.  Yateyaski(ph) Productions was incorporated in 1980 ‑‑ 1998, and we produce half‑hour documentaries by and for, about our people in northern Saskatchewan, so we're producing 13 half‑hour documentaries.  We air them on APTN as a national window broadcaster, and then our second broadcaster, our second envelope is SCN which is the regional broadcaster.

4432             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.

4433             MS CHARLES:  We air it.  However, we downsized it to six and we get our funding from Telefilm and other funders, so we're still doing it.

4434             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Now you, Ms Charles, are on the board of APTN and so do you have some sort of a cooperative arrangement with them at all?

4435             MS CHARLES:  Yes, I am on the board.  I am appointed to that board.  We ‑‑ the ‑‑ there's ten organizations across northern Saskatchewan that are broadcasters, radio broadcasters, and their original vision was to have a national Aboriginal television.  So basically we gave it birth and so we have an envelope and a budget where we deliver that and produce those documentaries.

4436             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mmhmm.  And do you receive any ‑‑ anything from APTN in terms of being able to use the news they've gathered or anything like that?

4437             MS CHARLES:  For regional news?

4438             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mmhmm.

4439             MS CHARLES:  We've delivered some, but it's not consistent.  It has to be a national ‑‑

4440             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Relevance.

4441             MS CHARLES:  ‑‑ relevance.  Most of the news is regional for us.  However, we do carry national, and I'm in the process of working on a newscast from my office with a regional broadcaster, not a national, because we already have the national.

4442             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And WAAB, Western Association of Aboriginal Broadcasters, you're a member?

4443             MS CHARLES:  Yes, I am.  I am a founding member.  A couple years ago I was ‑‑ incorporated a national group.  However, I changed that to the Western Association of Aboriginal Broadcasters, whereas the western groups come together and meet, which is NCI of Manitoba, MBC of Saskatchewan, AMMSA of Alberta, and NBT of BC, and we have been working together for the past year, face‑to‑face conference calls, and our first live broadcast is this Friday on the Aboriginal Peoples Music Choice Awards, so that's our first broadcast.

4444             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, so you're going to all broadcast it?  Is that the idea?

4445             MS CHARLES:  Yes ‑‑

4446             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, okay.

4447             MS CHARLES:  ‑‑ we will.

4448             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, mmhmm.  And then you have plans for further sort of cooperation and that sort of thing?

4449             MS CHARLES:  Yes.  And the next live broadcast I would like to do is the residential school early release payments or their first instalment and the abuse that continues to happen with the elders, and none of it really went to healing, so that's the second initial broad ‑‑ live broadcast that I want to do.

4450             MR. PROKOPIE:  If I could just interject?  We are also currently, and have been for probably the last three, four months anyway, been airing a national top 30 Aboriginal countdown which is put together, produced, hosted by NCI but is delivered to the four ‑‑ the other three groups within WAAB, and we air that twice a week as well.  So that is also a WAAB initiative.

4451             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So he's up to 30 now?

4452             MR. PROKOPIE:  Yes.

4453             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Last time I talked to him it was 20.  Now, as ‑‑ I wanted to talk to you about your revenue.  As a percentage of the total of your revenue, how much does advertising consist?

4454             MR. PROKOPIE:  Well, I would need to let Deb address that one because also we do have fundraising, our bingo operations.

4455             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your bingo, yeah, mmhmm.

4456             MR. PROKOPIE:  And I'm not sure exactly where those percentages lie.  Right now I'm thinking that it's probably along the lines of 50 percent, give or take a little bit.  Fifty percent would be advertising driven.

4457             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And the bingo is the other 50; is that ‑‑

4458             MR. PROKOPIE:  Yeah.

4459             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, yeah.  So you're self‑sustaining?

4460             MR. PROKOPIE:  No, the ‑‑

4461             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No?

4462             MR. PROKOPIE:  ‑‑ we do get ‑‑ there is some national funding through NNBAP.

4463             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, mmhmm.

4464             MR. PROKOPIE:  But that's been on a steady decline over a number of years, and we're certainly building towards 100 percent self‑sustenance.  We think that day is probably coming, and we've been building towards that for a while.

4465             If Heritage Canada came today and said that, you know, these monies would no longer be available, we could proceed with our day‑to‑day operations.  Right now it's not even covering our Aboriginal language announcers.

4466             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mmhmm.  Tell me about your transmitter coverage of Saskatchewan.  You're not down in Swift Current, are you?

4467             MR. PROKOPIE:  No, we're not.

4468             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No.  Are you Estevan way, Weyburn way?

4469             MR. PROKOPIE:  Carlyle/White Bear.

4470             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, right.  You are, yeah.  Okay.

4471             MR. PROKOPIE:  Carlyle/White Bear.  We're currently also in Keeseekoose, but I'm sure you've ‑‑

4472             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And those are all low power, right?

4473             MR. PROKOPIE:  Right.

4474             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah.  Now ‑‑

4475             MR. PROKOPIE:  And we have just been recently approved for Yorkton for a rebroad.

4476             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah.  North of Prince Albert is your coverage equivalent to or better than CBC's?

4477             MR. PROKOPIE:  Better than.

4478             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Any idea of your share of the market in Saskatoon?

4479             MR. PROKOPIE:  No.

4480             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No.  And is it fair to say that your numbers here, your revenue projections, Mr. Prokopie ‑‑ Prokopie, is close to what happened in Saskatoon?

4481             MR. PROKOPIE:  That would be a more aggressive pace than what has happened in Saskatoon.  And again, we haven't been actively soliciting advertising in Saskatoon.  Since our transmitter went up, we probably have five days of selling time there just because we've gone there to ‑‑ you know, to address something, whether it be at the FSIN or ‑‑ and, you know, we've made a call or two, but we just not have actively solicited advertising in Saskatoon.

4482             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

4483             That's all my questions.  Commissioner Pennefather would like to ask you some questions.

4484             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

4485             Just one question.  I notice in your letter of August 16 you talk about your ever expanding listening audience of over 100,000 in 60 locations and the Internet.  Can you give us a sense of the Internet and how many hits, what proportion of the audience is coming through the website or the Internet?

4486             MR. PROKOPIE:  The portion of our audience coming through the website would be very minimal.  And again, I'm not the technical expert, but I believe we have only 30 ports or something where only 30 people can be online at any given time.

4487             So as for our hits, I was quite surprised to hear that we are getting in excess of 5,000 hits a month.  I've ‑‑ no, I think I'm actually very low.  I heard this number from our technical person not long ago, and we were all very surprised at the number of hits we were getting on our website.

4488             I don't necessarily believe they're all going to the streaming audio.  We ‑‑ a lot of our news stories get put onto our website.  There's a message board.  There's some interactive stuff there, so our website is being very ‑‑ it being hit very regularly, but the percentage of our audience coming from it, I think, would be minimal.

4489             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Good distinction.  And they were just all in one line, so that's a very interesting distinction.  Thank you for that.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

4490             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑chair Arpin...?

4491             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  You ‑‑ you've been speaking about your youth programming and particularly what you do on the Saturday and you were talking about the reaction in Saskatoon.  I ‑‑ have you been able to measure the audience that you could get from non‑Aboriginal people in places like Saskatoon or Prince Albert?

4492             MR. PROKOPIE:  We haven't found the ruler yet that we can lay down and measure that.  Again, just by the requests we get, just by the number of messages on our message board on our website, we feel that that number is strong and continues to grows ‑‑ to grow.

4493             Again, everybody puts their pants on one leg at a time, so the music that the Aboriginal youth are grooving to on Saturday night is also the music that the non‑Aboriginal youth cannot access and find anywhere else, so we truly believe we've got a good portion of them.  Unfortunately, like, I cannot give you any measurement.

4494             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  But you know that you're getting a reaction from the audience and ‑‑

4495             MR. PROKOPIE:  We certainly know that, yes.

4496             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And you could expect the same thing here from ‑‑ in Regina if ‑‑

4497             MR. PROKOPIE:  We're anticipating that fully, yes.

4498             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Fully.  Now, I've been looking at the financial report that you have been filing with the CRTC in which you're saying that you're probably somewhere 50/50 between local advertising and other revenues.

4499             Now, our reports are showing only other revenues.  Is it the ‑‑ we're trying to measure the performance of advertising in this country, and is it because you'd ‑‑ I really didn't investigate the question before coming to the hearing on this sort of material while you were talking, looking specifically at the information that I have, which is ‑‑ and is it the way it's reported or is it the ‑‑ a problem that you have in the reporting the ‑‑ to the CRTC not splitting what is advertising and what is other revenues?  Or is it at the CRTC that we have a problem?

4500             I'm just asking the question and looking at staff, if they also have an answer.  The ‑‑ are you aware of the type of report that you're sending on an annual basis?

4501             MR. PROKOPIE:  No, I can't say I'm fully aware.  Deb may be able to answer this more specifically.  I think maybe what may be happening is, within MBC we have a number of companies that all funnel back to MBC.  MBC is the mother ship.  I represent an organization Tucho(ph) Enterprises which is our advertising arm, our revenue arm.  We're here on behalf of Natotawin Broadcasting today, which actually gets the advertising that we sell on the air and provides our programming.

4502             So, you know, there's a number of revenue sources coming from the individual companies that ultimately end up in MBC, and that's probably what you're seeing.

4503             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And then they do distribute that revenues to each of the units that MBC is operating?

4504             MR. PROKOPIE:  Correct.

4505             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And that's why they will not consider it as advertising but will put it in the other revenue category?  That ‑‑

4506             MR. PROKOPIE:  Yeah.

4507             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Well, that satisfies my question.

4508             MR. PROKOPIE:  All right.

4509             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mrs. Chair.

4510             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Commissioner Williams...?

4511             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  I'm just reading through your information files to learn a bit more about Natotawin Broadcasting.  It says you own and operate over 70 broadcast transmitters throughout the Province of Saskatchewan that serve Aboriginal people.  The MBC network and its subsidiaries connect tens of thousands of people in Saskatchewan from geographically and culturally diverse communities with a highly professional distinctive Aboriginal radio service.

4512             How many people do you estimate or what percentage of the Saskatchewan population do you reach?

4513             MR. PROKOPIE:  I think in the big picture, you know, we're somewhere ‑‑ we truly believe ‑‑ in that 10 and 15 percent.  Now, as you move from region to region, that number could be as high as 95 percent.

4514             We know that there are in excess of 70,000 people north of the NAD line.  We feel ‑‑

4515             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  What is ‑‑

4516             MR. PROKOPIE:  ‑‑ that was ‑‑

4517             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  ‑‑ what is MAD?  Is it like the Mason‑Dickson line or something or ‑‑

4518             MR. PROKOPIE:  Oh, it's basically ‑‑ I believe it's called the north ‑‑ Northern Allowance District which basically divides the province into two.  If you're from north of the line, there's certain concessions there for you and such.

4519             Now, north of the NAD line, we know that there is in excess of 70,000 people living there.  As we go across to our urban centres, we know Prince Albert has, you know, 35,000 with an almost 40 percent Aboriginal demographic.  We know North Battleford, at 16,000, you know, has a strong representation.  We know Saskatoon, at 300,000, has ‑‑ I think they're quoting right now about a 10 or 15 percent Aboriginal demographic to their population mix.

4520             We truly believe and feel that we are able to speak, and are speaking, to a large majority of the First Nations people in Saskatchewan.  So we do estimate our listening audience at 100,000 plus.

4521             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Missinipi, I guess that refers to the Missinipi River, if I remember my reading, and the way that people historically travelled and moved and shared information.

4522             What is Natotawin?  What's the meaning of Natotawin?  Why did you choose that name?

4523             MS CHARLES:  Missinipi means big water in Cree, and Natotawin means listen in Cree.

4524             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Listen?

4525             MS CHARLES:  Yeah.

4526             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, I'll try to do my best.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

4527             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  There's been some discussion in this hearing on the economic state of the Regina and Saskatoon radio markets, the two largest communities in Saskatchewan, to absorb competitors or even just the healthy economic state of those communities from a radio advertising perspective.

4528             I note in your information and ‑‑ and I'm a little bit confused on your revenue side, as was Vice‑Chair Arpin, but that the PBIT that you reported for 2005 was 26 percent.  That's your profit before interest and tax of 26 percent, compared to a 7 percent PBIT for the Regina market and a 2 percent PBIT for the Saskatoon radio market.

4529             Why has your station become so popular and financially successful, given your extensive serving area and the many transmitters and the associated higher costs of serving so many communities?  Why do you think that is the case that you can operate so profitably being so widespread and serving so many?

4530             MR. PROKOPIE:  Well, I think first we should take that as a compliment.

4531             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

4532             MR. PROKOPIE:  We run a tight ship.  We don't have bodies just sitting around waiting for something to do.  We're very multi‑tasking.  We have people that wear many hats.  We have a very strong controller and a very strong board who ensures that our fiscal responsibility is something that is watched consistently.

4533             I don't know if I can add much more to that other than it's something that we pay attention to because, as I said earlier, we don't know if the few dollars that we currently get through Heritage Canada are going to be available to us down the road, and we need ensure that we have money to put up new transmitters in communities when requested.  We have money to help train a community radio station, so it's just ‑‑ it's good management, I believe.

4534             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  What is your opinion of the economic state of the Regina and Saskatoon radio markets?  Is it, in your opinion, healthy, financially buoyant or is it financially weaker as some might suggest?

4535             MR. PROKOPIE:  I guess it depends on who you listen to over the last couple days would maybe determine what one really believes.  I think Saskatchewan, as a market itself, is relatively healthy.  I think with the ‑‑ the ever increasing First Nations demographic that's moving into the urban centres are obviously creating an economic effect that perhaps wasn't seen before.  It's become an ever powerful force within the economy, and we see that continuing to grow.

4536             You know, as for the actual health of the market of Regina, I don't think I'm really in a position to speak to that.  I know that we're not certainly looking to do anything to make it less healthy.

4537             As for Saskatoon, I think ‑‑ you know, you talk to people.  You see people.  You meet people.  I think everybody's quite satisfied with how things are in Saskatoon.

4538             So that's sort of the best uneducated answer I can give you is ‑‑ you know, I don't believe things are always as bad as we're led on to believe ‑‑ keeping in mind we are in Saskatchewan, and that's the nature of our beast.

4539             So, you know, I think through diligence and through providing the service that people want and providing good value in what you're presenting to them, the economics will take care of themselves providing that, you know, you're not greedy and don't have visions of, you know, making big money overnight.

4540             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Earlier this morning you heard AVR's eloquent presentation stressing the need for a national Aboriginal broadcaster, and they also indicated that they were supportive of your efforts throughout Saskatchewan.

4541             Do you think a national Aboriginal network would provide value to Saskatchewan Aboriginals similar to that provided by mainstream Canadian national networks, like CBC, to all Canadians?  Is there value in a national network, I guess is the question?

4542             MR. PROKOPIE:  I'm not sure if I see the value, and I try not to look at this through rose‑coloured glasses or with blinders on.  I'm not sure what the value would be.  I think, you know, we keep hearing in this day and age that traditional radio is in trouble because of the Internet and because of satellite radio and because of this and this and this.

4543             And I believe that the groups that have spoken to you over the last couple of days are saying there is a future in radio, and that's because we can still provide the local weather.  We can still talk about the community event that's happening down the street.  We still cover stories that have relevance to our everyday lives, and I think ultimately that's where our strength lies and perhaps maybe where some of the strength would be lost in a national network.

4544             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  In your opinion, are the interests of rural and herbal ‑‑ rural and urban Aboriginals identical or are there some different interests given the different environments that they live in, in smaller and larger communities and in communities where they may be a dominant demographic in the population and in others where there may be a minority?  Are there differences?

4545             MR. PROKOPIE:  There definitely are some differences and as, you know, I had mentioned earlier, quite often when you move into an urban setting, a lot of the culture you grew up with is lost.

4546             But also when it comes to our programming, you ‑‑ we talked about MBC setting up at a trappers festival to provide programming.  Well, I can tell you there probably isn't a lot of people in Regina that make their living via the trap line anymore, so there is, you know, a cultural difference there.

4547             Commercial fishing, you know, we cover stories that pertain to commercial fishers and how their livelihoods are being affected on a daily basis.  Again, that's not a new story that perhaps has a lot of relevance to an urban Aboriginal or non‑Aboriginal here in Regina.  So, yes, there are certainly differences that we recognize.

4548             And I was asked earlier about the powwow trail.  You know, that is something that is very strong here in the south, so we do acknowledge the difference.  And as time goes on and where we see the need is, we will certainly fill that need.

4549             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Given the projected increase in Saskatchewan ‑‑ Saskatchewan's Aboriginal population, do you think Aboriginals may want some diversity in Aboriginal broadcasters, much like that enjoyed by the mainstream?  Like, there's plenty of choice in ‑‑ out of the larger centres.

4550             MR. PROKOPIE:  I'm sure that they may, but I also believe they appreciate and respect the trusted, and trust is something that needs to be earned not only in Aboriginal country, but across all cultures.  Trust is something that needs to be earned.

4551             And, you know, we really feel that we've addressed that trust issue and because people know that when they tune into MBC, they are getting the information as it was meant to be put out there and they are getting the information in a way that makes them feel good about what they're hearing, whether it be through their language or knowing that it's an Aboriginal broadcaster giving them that story.

4552             You know, I believe that that's ultimately what they will keep coming back to is something that feels good, makes them feel warm inside, and reminds them of home.

4553             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Many Saskatchewan residents we've heard over the last few years have perhaps retired or relocated for job reasons to neighbouring provinces.  Do you feel there's any need for your programming from Saskatchewan to be able to reach some of your expatriate community that may live in other parts of the country?

4554             MR. PROKOPIE:  No, we don't see that as a ‑‑ as an immediate need.  If the need's out there, you know, we do have the Internet and we also have our cousins in neighbouring provinces that we feel are doing a very good job with what they do, whether it's AMMSA Alberta, NCI in Manitoba.  We know that, you know, their mandate is very similar to ours and the reason they exist is very similar to ours and that our audience, if they were to relocate, would have a lot of their needs taken care of through those sources.  So, no, to follow our expatriates across the country and put up sticks right behind them is not anything ‑‑

4555             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  No, no, I was thinking more along the lines of a national broadcaster fulfilling that role and you helping input to it.

4556             MR. PROKOPIE:  Well, I mean ‑‑ I think that's sort of what WAAB is looking at.  You know, I don't know if we'll actually go on the air as a national broadcaster, but we certainly share ideas and information and some programming so ‑‑ and I think the creation of WAAB was somewhat established to address this particular situation and what you're asking.

4557             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  If the Commission approved your application and also approved AVR's application, can you see synergies and opportunities to work together to better serve the Aboriginal communities of Saskatchewan and Canada?

4558             MR. PROKOPIE:  Well, I think, you know, I could answer that question based on what I believe, but I ‑‑ what I really believe, what would need to happen is a coming together of the minds.  We have never been approached by AVR to talk about perhaps creating some synergy amongst the two of us.

4559             I know some of the other groups across Canada that I've spoken to have not, so I don't think any of us are against anything.  Nobody can predict the future, but it all starts with a handshake and a meeting of the minds.

4560             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you very much.  That's my questions to Mr. Prokopie.

4561             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Ms Charles, Mr. Prokopie ‑‑ I'm pronouncing that right?

4562             MR. PROKOPIE:  Prokopie.

4563             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Prokopie.  You have now two minutes to sum up for us.

4564             MS CHARLES:  Okay.  Well, again thank you for giving me the opportunity to be here to present my application.  Given the issues that we presented here today, I respectfully ask the Commission to approve my licence.

4565             And each and every day when we go to work we have to keep in mind our indigenous roots of who we are, what we're about, by/for our ‑‑ with Aboriginal people, and that's what I do each and every day.  And I do it for my people and my languages and the different dialects in each and every language and I continue to ‑‑ will work towards the southern ‑‑ incorporating the southern languages into the northern languages so we, as people, can come together and connect with each other again and with the land again.

4566             Thank you.

4567             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

4568             Madam Secretary, I don't ‑‑ I'm hoping we could get through Phase II in ‑‑ yeah, we could at least start working on Phase II.

4569             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

4570             Therefore, this completes Phase I of consideration of items 10 to 16.  We can now proceed to Phase II, as indicated by the Chair, in which applicants will appear or can appear, if they wish, in the same order to intervene on competing applications.

4571             We've been informed that Newcap Inc. will not appear in this phase.

4572             I would now call on Touch Canada Broadcasting to come forward if they wish to intervene on competing applications.

‑‑‑ Pause

4573             THE SECRETARY:  I gather they're not appearing.

4574             Therefore, Radio CJVR Ltd. are the next applicant to appear if they wish.

‑‑‑ Pause

4575             THE SECRETARY:     They are not appearing either.  We will continue with the Aboriginal Voices Radio.

‑‑‑ Pause

4576             THE SECRETARY:  I've been informed that they will not appear.

4577             And finally, Natotawin Broadcasting can come back if they wish to intervene on competing applications.

‑‑‑ Pause

4578             THE SECRETARY:     And they choose not to, therefore, Mrs. Chair, this completes Phase II of the process.

4579             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Actually, Madam Secretary, it doesn't because the list is missing Standard.  So could you please ‑‑

4580             THE SECRETARY:  You are quite correct.

4581             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So could you call Standard?

4582             THE SECRETARY:     I stand corrected.  Standard Radio may come forward if they wish to intervene on competing applications.

‑‑‑ Pause

4583             THE SECRETARY:     And I think this completes the list, Mrs. Chair.

4584             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Then we may as well proceed to Phase III.

4585             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

4586             Phase III of the process is where other parties appear in the order set out in the agenda to present their intervention.

4587             I will now call on the first appearing intervener, Harvard Broadcasting, to come forward for their presentation.

‑‑‑ Pause

4588             THE SECRETARY:  Mrs. Chair, we will go to the next appearing intervener which is CIRPA.  If they are present, if they would come forward to present their intervention?

4589             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  They said that they were only to appear once.

4590             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Vice‑Chair.

4591             So therefore, we will proceed to the following intervention which is a panel of two interveners, Rawlco Radio Ltd. and Communications Management Inc.  If they could come forward for your ‑‑ the presentation of your intervention?

‑‑‑ Pause

4592             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ladies and gentlemen, just for information, we will be breaking at 12:30 as ‑‑ well, after you've finished your presentation, as there is a conference call so ‑‑ and then we will be coming back at 1:30 with questions from the panel of this panel.

4593             Madam Secretary...?

4594             THE SECRETARY:  I would ask that you introduce yourselves before you begin, and you will have ‑‑ just a moment ‑‑ 15 minutes for your presentation.

4595             Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

4596             MS LEYLAND:  Thank you.

4597             Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Ms Cram, Commissioners Williams, Cugini, Arpin and Pennefather.

4598             Before we begin our presentation today, I'd like to introduce our Rawlco Radio team.  On October 18th, two weeks ago, we at Rawlco celebrated our 60th anniversary.  Rawlco was started by Gordon and Doug's father, E.A. Rawlinson, with the purchase in 1946 of CKBI Radio in Prince Albert.  We are still proud to own CKBI, along with 11 other radio stations in Saskatchewan.

4599             After 60 years of serving this great province, we know Saskatchewan and we know radio in Saskatchewan.  We are very proud of our home province.  We live here and work here because we want to.

4600             Let me introduce our group to you.  My name is Pam Leyland.  I'm president of Rawlco Radio.  I got my start in radio as a newsperson, then became a news director, a program director, a general manager, and now president ‑‑ all with Rawlco over the last 25 years.

4601             On my right is our CEO, Gordon Rawlinson.  One of his favourite sayings is that he's been in radio all his life, all the way back to the early days in Prince Albert.  Gordon has been a tremendous help and inspiration to me.

4602             Next to Gord is Ken Goldstein of Communications Management Inc.  On my left is Doug Pringle.  Doug is a legendary programmer and musicologist.  Doug knows a lot about all kinds of music, and his roots go back to when he started Canada's first album/rock station at CHOM in Montreal in the late '60s.  Doug has been with Rawlco for 26 years.

4603             If you have any questions about the music formats in Regina, Doug would be glad to give you his thoughts at the end of our presentation.

4604             Next to Doug is Kristy Werner.  Kristy is the program director for Z99 here in Regina.  Kristy is one of those bright young people we're always looking for at Rawlco; someone with smarts, drive, ability and passion.  She's also the person that makes our 20th annual Z99 radiothon for the Hospitals of Regina Foundation come to life.

4605             Behind me and to my right is Doug Rawlinson.  Gordon and Doug have been partners for about 35 years and have worked very hard together to make Rawlco a great radio company.

4606             To Doug's left is Karen Mains.  Karen is the person that makes our operation in Regina run.  Karen is our operations manager and the day‑to‑day operations of three radio stations fall on her shoulders.  Karen has been with Rawlco for 20 years.

4607             On Karen's left is Tom Newton.  Tom is the manager of our three radio stations here in Regina, Z99 FM, Jack FM, and News Talk 980 CJME.  Tom's background is programming and he started with us as an announcer 21 years ago, then became a promotion director, program director, and now our manager.

4608             Madam Chair, let me begin by welcoming the Commission and staff to Saskatchewan, a province of almost 1 million people.  It's noteworthy that if this hearing had been held way back in 1930, it could have opened with exactly the same statement, a province of almost 1 million people.

4609             For sociologists, Saskatchewan must be an interesting place to study.  It presents them with the perfect opportunity to answer a fundamental question.  If a province has virtually no population growth for 75 years, will the people be different from those living in a nearby province with surging population growth?

4610             Part of the answer is that human beings are very adaptable.  They adapt to the environment they find themselves in.  Further, they'll work very hard to turn what outsiders might consider to be difficult circumstances into something positive.  This is certainly what the people of Regina or, for that matter, Saskatoon have done.

4611             First, it must be admitted that many people do leave Regina and Saskatchewan every year for Alberta and other provinces but many also choose to stay.  They choose affordable housing over surging house prices.  They choose easy access over major traffic jams.  They choose a simpler, more pleasant lifestyle over a rat race.  And most importantly, they choose friendliness and neighbourliness over impersonal big city life.

4612             All of these things came through to me again when I read the more than 200 letters submitted as part of our intervention.  There's a sense in these letters that making Regina into a great place to live didn't happen naturally.  It only happened because many people worked very hard to make it happen.  There's a strong sense of concern that they don't want to lose what they've worked so hard to achieve.

4613             A lot of what is said flies in the face of conventional wisdom.  Usually if you offer people what, at least on the surface, appears to be something for nothing, they're going to say, "Of course I'll take it.  Why not?"  In fact "why not" is the focus of almost all of the letters.

4614             The leaders of community organizations have many concerns about the possibility of licensing additional radio stations in Regina.  One of their concerns is that their messages on radio will have less impact if there are more stations.

4615             As Eileen Janz, manager of marketing for the Saskatchewan Science Centre says, "Adding additional licences to this diluted market will impact our ability to reach radio listeners."

4616             They also fear that they will lose the close relationships they have with the existing stations, ones that have been developed over many years.

4617             Erin Marchuk at the Arthritis Society comments, "We value the support we receive and feel that the addition of more radio stations will jeopardize the relationships we've established."

4618             Something they count on is easy access to the stations for interviews when they want to publicize their events or fundraising campaigns.

4619             As Robyn Sullivan with the Regina Day Committee notes, "The Regina radio stations have always been quick to jump on board with generous donations of both on‑air advertising and interviews."

4620             Finally, some organization, like the Regina Hospitals Foundation, worry that the station sponsored fundraising campaigns will be less effective in a more fragmented radio environment.

4621             Conventional wisdom would also suggest that local businesses would welcome more radio stations.  The letters show that this is not the case at all.  For local retailers, more stations mean more fragmentation which will result in higher advertising costs and diminished impact.

4622             Jamie York at Island Inkjet states, "With the state of our Saskatchewan economy, it would be deleterious to my business interest to have to fragment my marketing budget even more with the introduction of yet another radio station."

4623             They also worry that more stations will change the close relationship they have with their advertising consultants who help them grow their businesses.

4624             Maxine Drelier of Travel Masters makes this point, "The radio station I deal with gives me great advice and service and I know my rep well."

4625             Finally, they don't like the idea of more station salespeople taking up their valuable time.

4626             Dennis Marvin at Clarica says succinctly, "I do not want to spend further dollars or deal with more radio reps calling on me."

4627             The concerns expressed in these letters are not superficial concerns.  In reading them, one can feel the sincerity.  The writers honestly feel that there is a special relationship between themselves and the radio stations, and they don't want to lose it.

4628             They're definitely worried that the CRTC will make decisions that will have a real detrimental impact on their organization or businesses.

4629             At the very heart of the matter is the reason people choose to live in Regina and not move to Calgary.  It's the neighbourliness and the sense of community, and they consider their local radio stations with their strong local roots to be an integral part of the community.

4630             Many work very hard to make Regina a better place to live and they feel their local radio stations are shoulder‑to‑shoulder with them every step of the way.  So if the local community organizations and businesses have real concerns about the licensing of additional stations, how do the listeners in Regina feel about their local stations?

4631             We commissioned a survey of 400 radio listeners to try to answer this question.  As the graphic shows, they're quite happy with their local radio service.  A high percentage indicated they were satisfied that they can get the local news and community information they need, and that the stations do a good job covering local events.  They recognize that the stations support Canadian artists and play their music.  Overall, there was a high level of satisfaction with local radio in Regina.

4632             Special mention must be made to the response to the question, "Can you listen to the music you like when you want to listen to it?"  The Internet, iPod, satellite radio and other forms of music distribution are changing the way people listen to music.

4633             While all the major music formats are available in Regina, it could be argued that there are narrow niche formats that are not present.  Yet, 92 percent were satisfied that they can listen to the music they like when they want to listen to it.  This certainly raised the question, just how much do listeners really feel the need for additional musical diversity?

4634             The role of Rawlco Radio in Regina raises further questions about conventional wisdom.  Many would say that in the absence of greater competition, broadcasters will only view the minimum required by regulation.  They will always choose higher profits over additional community service.

4635             In this light, let's take a look at what Rawlco Radio has accomplished.  Crazy is the term experienced broadcasters were using when Rawlco introduced News Talk eight years ago.  Small cities like Regina and Saskatoon are not nearly big enough to support this extensive, rather expensive programming.  And for a while, I have to admit it looked like they were right, but we soldiered on.

4636             And today News Talk has become absolutely essential to life in Saskatchewan.  The programs are like giant town hall meeting where the people across the province come together to discuss the issues of the day.  While we may never recoup the investment cost, I can report they are now nearly breaking even.

4637             MR. PRINGLE:  While doing an application for a new FM station in Edmonton, we came up with the idea for Project 10K20 where we provide $10,000 to 20 artists so that they can make a CD.  It has been a huge success in Edmonton and has really transformed the local jazz scene, and we are sure it's going to have the same similar impact on the local folk scene in Calgary.

4638             Now, when looking at this picture, we came to realize that there was something wrong.  We were doing Project 10K20 in Edmonton and Calgary because of CTD commitments, but in Saskatchewan, our home province, the need was perhaps even greater, so we decided to rectify the situation and announced its availability on our Saskatchewan radio stations.  The response was quite overwhelming.  More than 200 applications were received.  We ended up approving 29 of the applications and the resulting CDs are displayed on the board beside me there.

4639             One of the major benefits of Project 10K20 in Saskatchewan has been a huge increase in the amount of local Saskatchewan music we can play, so we have increased our minimum Canadian content to 40 percent of all of our FM stations in Saskatchewan.

4640             MS LEYLAND:  Community involvement, community service and super‑serving our listeners is the way we do radio.  The submitted letters tell the story again and again.  Outside recognition of our efforts can be seen in the 27 CAB nominations and awards our stations have received since 2000.  These award‑winning programs are just the tip of the iceberg.  Every day, and in almost every program, we're doing things to support the community and local community organizations.  It's the Saskatchewan way, and we certainly don't want to change it.

4641             Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, if there's one thought I can leave you with in our intervention it is this:  Saskatchewan is different.  Regina is not Fort McMurray, not Grande Prairie, not Medicine Hat.

4642             While we are all obsessed with trying to get the population over that elusive 1 million mark, the fact is we live here because we like it just the way it is.  We found that there are many benefits and advantages to living in cities with little growth.

4643             Of necessity, the people of Regina have found a way to make this a great city to live in; pulling together, working for a better Regina, and radio stations that play a leadership role in this endeavour is something special.

4644             Our radio revenues are not growing in Regina, and the stations are not highly profitable.  In fact currently national advertising is declining.  Nevertheless, there are no cutbacks and absolutely no reduction in our level of community commitment.  We don't want to have anything to do with the US model of cheap jukebox radio.

4645             We believe the letters and the survey results deliver a clear message:  The people of Regina like the radio they have today, and they don't want to lose it.  Madam Chair, we feel there should be no new licences granted in Regina.

4646             For a city of its size, Regina is extremely well‑served.  In fact it's over‑served when compared to markets like Edmonton and Calgary.  For some slight additional musical diversity, is it really worth risking the quality of radio that Regina now enjoys?  We think not.

4647             Thank you.  This completes our intervention.  Ken...?

4648             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Actually, if I can stop you right now and we will adjourn and then, Mr. Goldstein, you can give your brief presentation after lunch.  12:30.

4649             MS LEYLAND:  Thank you.

4650             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Not 12:30.  Yeah, so you've got one second for lunch.  No, 1:30.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1230 / Suspension à 1230

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1330 / Reprise à 1330

4651             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order.  I just wanted to say one thing about Ms Leyland's comments about people moving to Calgary.  Given Gainer‑Gate, nobody's moving to Calgary.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

4652             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary...?

4653             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

4654             We will continue with the intervention of CMI, Communications Management Inc.  Mr. Goldstein...?

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

4655             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Thank you, Madam Chair, Commissioners.

4656             In this proceeding from an economic perspective, there is essentially one fundamental question that needs to be addressed:  Do the economic indicators tell us that the market is capable of supporting a new commercial radio station?

4657             The report we submitted deals in detail with that question.  As you will have seen in our report, we tied our analysis very closely to the patterns of licensing and the comments the Commission made with respect to four other metro markets in which the Commission has considered new radio licences in the recent past; Kitchener, Halifax, Calgary and Quebec City.

4658             And we chose this methodology because of something the Commission itself said in its decision of August 10th, 2006, on the licensing of new radio stations in Quebec City.  In that decision, the Commission noted that the economic picture was not as positive as in many other markets and chose, therefore, to license only one new station with a speciality format.

4659             So we constructed a comparison of four markets in which licences have been granted and compared Regina and Saskatoon with those four markets and with the corresponding figures for all private radio across Canada.  After all, if indicators in Regina or Saskatoon are lower than in Quebec City, that should tell us something about the ability of these markets to support a new station.

4660             The results are summarized in our report and the results do indeed tell us that the economic indicators for the Regina radio market are not favourable to the licensing of any new commercial radio stations at this time.

4661             Let me briefly review a number of the key indicators.  First, population.  The Conference Board is projecting that Regina's population will grow by just 1.5 percent over the five years from 2005 to 2010, about one‑third the comparable growth rate for Canada.

4662             I noted that some of the applicants have made references to data from the Financial Post Canadian Demographics.  Here is what that source says about Regina's population:  "As of July 1st, 2005, 200,294 people; as of July 1st, 2006, 200,204 people ‑‑ a year‑on‑year decline of 90 people.

4663             Second, GDP.  The Conference Board is predicting that real GDP growth rates for Regina will decline from 2008 to 2009 and 2010, and those would be the first three full years of any proposed new station.

4664             For Canada, real GDP is projected to go up during that a period.  By 2010, the real GDP growth rate for Regina is projected to be about 25 percent lower than the growth rate for Canada.

4665             Third, retail sales.  We heard at least one applicant claim that Saskatchewan retail sales would increase 11 percent this year.  However, that claim is not supported by data from Statistics Canada.  The most recent data from Statistics Canada for the period January to August 20 ‑‑ January to August 2006 indicate a growth rate of 6 percent over the comparable period a year earlier, about half of what was claimed.  And the Conference Board is projecting that the growth rate for retail sales in Saskatchewan will be lower in 2008 and then decline further.

4666             If we focus on Regina and use data from the Conference Board, we see that the growth rate for retail sales spiked in 2005 and is projected to decline from 2008 to 2009 and 2010.

4667             The recent reduction in the provincial sales tax from 7 percent to 5 percent may have a modest short‑term effect, but that effect is unlikely to continue into the first years of a radio station in this market.

4668             Fourth, radio revenues.  From 1996 to 2003, private radio revenues in Regina and Saskatoon grew more slowly than was the case for radio in Canada.  Then from 2003 to 2005 there was a brief growth spurt.  However, based on the data for 2006 that we have seen, the growth spurt is over and private radio in Regina and Saskatoon again has a lower growth rate than radio across Canada.

4669             Fifth, radio profitability.  We have heard a number of statistics from applicants that purport to paint a rosy picture of revenues in the Regina market, but we have not heard any applicant deal with the other key factor, profitability, other than to dismiss its importance.  But the numbers are dramatic.

4670             Across Canada, from 2001 to 2005, the average PBIT for private radio as a percentage of total revenue was 18.2 percent.  In Regina, we estimate that the average PBIT for private radio from 2001 to 2005 was just under 5 percent, 13 percentage points lower than the figure for all of Canada.

4671             Can revenue growth be separated from profitability?  Is one more important than the other?  Of course not.  Both are important.  And the data tells us that after a brief growth spurt, radio revenues in Regina are growing more slowly while profit margins remain low.

4672             When we consider all of the factors together, we believe they deliver a single powerful message; the economic indicators do not support the licensing of any new commercial radio stations in Regina at this time.  And we believe it is also clear that the introduction of any new commercial radio station into the Regina market would push the PBIT level for the market into negative territory and would make it difficult, if not impossible, for current private stations to maintain their current high levels of community service.

4673             Thank you, I would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

4674             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Commissioner Cugini...?

4675             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Good afternoon, Ms Leyland and your panel.  Firstly, I'd like to apologize for the quality of my voice.  The cold bug has bit me, but I now have good drugs, so hopefully we'll get through this.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

4676             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I just have a couple of questions for you, just to probe a little bit further into your comments earlier today.  I'm not sure if you were here physically in the room when Newcap presented their application for Regina, but I'd like to get your reaction to something that they presented.  And I'll paraphrase what they said just so you know what exactly it is that I am referring to.

4677             They compared the number of radio stations to the population in Regina, whereas they said that for every 34,000 people in Regina, there is one commercial radio station.  Moncton, New Brunswick, there is a city whose CMA is less than three‑fifths of Regina and is home to six commercial FM stations.  St. John, New Brunswick, 1 for every 18,000.  Brandon, Manitoba, 1 for every 10,000.  And Belleville, Ontario, 1 for every 18,000 residents compared to Regina's 1 for every 34,000 residents.

4678             I was wondering if I could get your comments and your reaction?

4679             MS LEYLAND:  Certainly.  I'll ask Mr. Goldstein to comment on that.

4680             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  I think that those kind of comparisons really don't tell us very much.  First of all, you could pick other markets.  You could pick Calgary, Edmonton ‑‑

4681             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Which you did in your report.

4682             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Exactly.

4683             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So ‑‑

4684             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  And show precisely the opposite, that you could then use that to say, "Oh, look at the size here.  Look at the average number of people per station here.  Therefore, there are too many stations in the market.

4685             So I think that, as a first cut, I would say that I'm not sure that's particularly meaningful.  The part that bothers me, though, most about it is that one ‑‑ and by the way, I should say as an aside, I think the Brandon figure is very misleading because it doesn't include the rural area around Brandon, I don't think.

4686             But leaving that aside, the ‑‑ you compare us with Moncton ‑‑ or you compared Regina with Moncton or you compared the ‑‑ what other characteristics are present in the Moncton market is ‑‑ are you suggesting that one should import characteristics from these other markets into this market?

4687             In our report, for example, we noted that you have a situation in Regina and Saskatoon where you have very high levels of spending on programming because they have perfected what I think is a wonderful community model in these two markets.

4688             Now, if that market with the different average of population is now all of a sudden something we're holding up as a beacon to be emulated, should we go to the program spending levels of that market?  Should we go to the profitability levels of that market?  Should we go to the staffing levels of that market?

4689             So to simply say there are X number of people per station doesn't really tell the story.

4690             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And if ‑‑ I'd like to ask you, Mr. Goldstein, why it is that you included that same comparison in your study?

4691             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Oh, I conclude ‑‑ include it only to show that you could pick numbers and show precisely the opposite.  I think I could probably find the words, but I think I probably said I don't think these are very meaningful and I then went on to say, "Let's do a more sophisticated analysis."  I believe there's actually a subhead in my study talking about a more sophisticated analysis.

4692             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

4693             Ms Leyland, you may have heard us ask just about every applicant in these proceedings what are the factors?  Profitability we recognize is but one, but what are the factors that we, as a Commission, need to examine in order to determine whether or not a market can sustain another entrant?

4694             I would like to ask you what are the factors you look at and, if you can, perhaps even prioritize what those factors are when you want to enter, as Rawlco, into a new market.

4695             MS LEYLAND:  I think one of the factors that ‑‑

4696             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I'm sorry, I can't hear you.

4697             MS LEYLAND:  Oh, I'm sorry.  I think one of the factors that you might consider is music and the music that's presently offered in the community and the other formats that the applicants might want to make available.  I'd like to ask Doug to comment on the music formats that are in Sask ‑‑ or in Regina right now.

4698             MR. PRINGLE:  So if I could paint a brief picture of the formatic landscape in Regina?  Regina has all the four major formats currently in the market; rock, pop, country and news talk.  And in the case of the music formats, there are multiple signals available in each area.

4699             If you take the pop area, you have Lite who is an AC station catering to more the upper demographic of the pop audience.  And you have Z99 which caters more to the lower demographic.  So essentially upper and lower is covered in the pop side.

4700             If you take rock, you have a classic rock station, a pure classic rock station, Jack, which was ‑‑ as was mentioned by an earlier applicant although it has the name and the personality of the Jack format, it doesn't actually have the format.  It's a pure classic rock station.

4701             And then you have a mass appeal rock station, the Wolf that is geared younger, but they too play 40 percent classic rock.  Then you go to country.  We have two country stations.  We have an AM country station and we have Country 100 which comes in from Moose Jaw clear as a bell.  So in rock, pop and country, you have multiple formats covering all three of those musical genres.

4702             So I've got to be honest, when I first heard a call for the two markets, I was very curious as to what the mainstream broadcasters would come up with in terms of adding variety and musical diversity to the market and I was anticipating there'd be some pretty interesting category 3 submissions, so I was quite surprised actually that there were actually no category 3 submissions.  In fact, what was offered were just variations of what already existed in the marketplace.

4703             So just to quickly run through.  If you look at classic hits, well, there's already a station in the market that actually not only plays classic hits and has done for over 15 years, but has classic hits in their slogan.  Z99's slogan is, "Classic Hits and Today's Best Music".

4704             In addition to that, you'll find classic hits on Lite and you'll also find classic hits on Jack, so that format ‑‑ you know, that music is extremely well covered off.

4705             I was also interested to hear that there were no classic rock stations in this marketplace.  In actual fact, Jack is pure classic rock, and as I mentioned Wolf plays 40 percent classic rock.  To my knowledge, there's no market anywhere that supports three classic rock stations, so I don't really see where they would fit in.

4706             The submission for oldies was interesting.  Oldies has some challenges.  As you probably know, in Canada the format is going through some difficult times.  Stations have been bailing on the format.  There are less and less oldie stations all the time ‑‑ not just in Canada, the flagship oldie stations in the world.

4707             WCBS FM, they recently abandoned the format for a younger gold format, a format based in the '80s.  And of course in Canada we have the additional problem of hitting on the hit rule, so I think that would be a very tough go.  And the music in the market, I mean the tape that was played with the Beach Boys and the Beetles and Four Seasons, Lite plays a fair amount of that.  And of course the Canadian element is completely duplicated on Jack.

4708             The Canadian music from the '60s and '70s is ‑‑ you know, simply because there's not much great Canadian music from that era, it's duplicated on both the classic rock format and the oldies format.  I'm talking about BTO, the Guess Who, Neil Young.  All those guys, they're duplicated.  So I question how much of a hole, even if you could do it, there is for oldies in the market.

4709             And then the new country FM application, there already is a new country FM signal available to anybody who would like to listen to it in Regina.

4710             So as I look at what the market already has, which essentially has all the major formats covered in multiple, and then I look at what's being offered, I don't really see where there's much musical diversity.  I mean there's ‑‑ yes, it is versions of what is there, but I don't see any huge musical diversity being offered.

4711             MR. RAWLINSON:  Can I throw in one other comment as to what factors to look at?  I think that also it's worthwhile to take a look at what the existing radio stations are doing.  Are they providing good service or not?  Are they do ‑‑ doing a good job of serving their community?  Are they serving them well?  Are they running more than just jukeboxes or are they running real radio stations, real full‑service radio stations?  I think that's a factor to be considered, and I won't belabour that point, but I think that's a factor too.

4712             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.  Thank you very much.  Madam Chair, those are all my questions.

4713             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

4714             Commissioner Pennefather...?

4715             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I have some questions for you, Mr. Goldstein, and I'll go back to the point that my colleague, Commissioner Cugini, raised regarding the comparison with other markets.

4716             Now, I'm in your report and I have to say that you did include that as one of the economic indicators.  You go on to discuss a more sophisticated set of comparisons with a different city comparison, but the question she asked you in reference to the comments from Newcap was really in relation to your choice to use comparisons with other metropolitan markets on page 4 as one of the indicators.  And I do say indicators, so you would ‑‑ we agree that there are a number of indicators that one uses.

4717             So on that where you, yourself, at page 4, have noted that one of the indicators that can be used is a comparison with other markets in terms of population, in your view what would be your estimate of the minimum population required to support a commercial radio station?

4718             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Let me answer the first thing first by actually, if I may, read into the record what I said?

4719             I said some of the applications in this proceeding have included comparisons among Saskatoon, Regina and other markets for factors like the population per radio station.  This is a somewhat simplistic kind of comparison.  So the figures that I put in there was to illustrate that point.

4720             As far as asking the question of what is the minimum population you need to support a radio station, there is no answer.  And the reason there is no answer because it's not only the number of people, but it's where they're located.

4721             The minimum population in Hamilton is different than in Winnipeg, even though the markets are about the same size because Hamilton is sitting right beside Toronto, and Winnipeg has got a lot of territory around it.  So there is no simple answer to that question.

4722             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So you agree though it could be part of the mix of the discussions even though one would want to take a more sophisticated approach to it?  It still could be an indicator among others, but a less important one in your view?

4723             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  It's about the least important one.  I mean if you look at the amount spent on programming as a measure of the community involvement, if you look at the profitability, if you look at the trends, it also depends what direction you're moving in.  I consider it a highly simplistic kind of an indicator.

4724             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.

4725             Well, you will accept that just in the way this ‑‑ it is presented, I assumed that it was one of the indicators that you hoped to discuss.  And you go on to is ‑‑ to a more elaborate approach to that based on our decisions.  Let me take you to another indicator, which is page 6, your figures ‑‑ 6 and 7, your figures 3 and 4.

4726             And as I understand it, these figures are an estimate of program spending as a percentage of revenue, and also there's another column on PBIT as percentage of revenue and private radio.  And I'm looking at the percentage of program expenditures, a comparison of Canada to Regina and Saskatoon as you laid it out here, which clearly from your chart ‑‑ if I'm correct ‑‑ are higher than the average in Canada?

4727             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  That is correct.

4728             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Now, can you explain why ‑‑ what your rationale for maintaining that the Commission should refrain from licensing in markets ‑‑ in these markets in order to enable incumbents to maintain these clearly above average expenses and staffing levels?

4729             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Well, I think that there's a short answer and there's a longer answer.  The short answer is, is if you fragment the market and drive the PBIT levels down, they won't be able to afford to maintain the same levels of program expenditure and community service.

4730             But I think this is actually a window into a very important, much larger discussion that we should be having here and we should be having in lots of places, and that is is that the stations in this province ‑‑ particularly in Saskatoon, in Regina and generally in this province ‑‑ have really developed a very wonderful model of community service.  It shows up in the higher spending on programming, and the reality is is it shows up in the lower profitability.  And ‑‑ sorry, go ahead.

4731             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Well, I think if we kept it, as you said earlier from ‑‑ in your remarks from an economic perspective, if we keep it to that, you would accept though those higher expenses is a factor we should take into consideration when looking at profitability levels?

4732             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Well, I want ‑‑ I'm ‑‑ there is another important point to be added, and that is this, that the ‑‑ we've heard about the threat to radio, some of which is beginning to be felt, some of which is a little over the horizon from satellite and Internet and iPod and whatever.  The answer to that threat is precisely the kind of local emphasis that these stations are doing today.

4733             If you fragment the market, if you force them away from that, if you build them more into the jukebox model, you'll start a downward spiral.

4734             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Well, you chose to compare the Canadian average to Regina and Saskatoon and, within that Canadian average, I'm sure there are many stations which also offer community service.  So we looked at it from the point of view of basic programming expenditures across this country with more or less the same kinds of programming expenses, but it's an average and, within that average, I'm sure is community service.

4735             So relative to the economic question is this comparison which allows us to see a higher level of programming expenditures in Regina and Saskatoon which, you would agree, could skew the profitability level.  That's the question ‑‑ the point I'm making here.

4736             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Yes.

4737             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay.  Figure 10 in your ‑‑ I just wanted to be sure I read it right.  In fact, staff pointed out to me that I'd probably misinterpreted it first round.  Just to be sure we do understand it, figure 10 again is a comparison, and when we look at Saskatoon and Regina on the graph, is this telling us that they are below the Canadian average?

4738             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  That is correct.  The bar on the left, the grey bar ‑‑ if yours printed the same as mine did?

4739             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yes, it did somewhat.

4740             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  The grey bar shows the average PBIT for the five years indicated and the darker bar to the right of it in each case shows the difference with the Canadian average.

4741             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.

4742             It ‑‑ I first read that that was the PBIT, and it's considerably ‑‑ you'd say today it's 5 percent whether we agree with that or not, or whether there are different interpretations of that.  It certainly is not a minus at this stage.

4743             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  I ‑‑

4744             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Which I had misunderstood this figure.

4745             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  No, no, no, and nor was it intended to say it was a minus.  The ‑‑ this, remember, is a five‑year average.  As you're aware, the Commission used to do a radio market report and it used five‑year averages.  And so in the spirit of that, I thought it to be fair ‑‑

4746             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay.

4747             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  ‑‑    to use five‑year averages.  We know the numbers because they were placed on the record before lunch this morning so ‑‑

4748             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I wondered also, finally, if you had any comment ‑‑ my colleague noted the analysis done by Newcap concerning population.  Standard also tabled another interpretation looking at retail sales and compared to population then, the provinces are ranked on a per capita radio sales and, in this sense, Saskatchewan is the province that comes out on top, number 1.  Do you have any comment on that interpretation of the market?

4749             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Yes, I do.  I think, first of all, you have a situation here where we have a lot of small markets and because you have small population bases, that will tend to produce a higher per capita figure.  But I thinking ‑‑ think in gaining revenue, the reason I come back to profitability, there's a cost of revenue.  There's a cost; you have to spend something to get revenue.

4750             And because you're dealing with small units, you don't have the same economy of scale that you'll have in Calgary or in Edmonton.  The cost of gaining that per capita revenue is such that ‑‑ I mean PBIT isn't anything more or less than really a measure, if you will, of what's left over after the cost of gaining the revenue.  And so there's a high cost, when you have low economies of scale, of making that per capita happen.

4751             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay, thank you.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

4752             MR. RAWLINSON:  Commissioner Pennefather, could I just comment on the question of expenses?  We do run high expense radio stations.  We have a number of long‑term employees.  We have many great employees.  We do, as mentioned, terrific community programming.  We also do some Aboriginal programming.  Running news talk stations is a very expensive thing.  It also takes a huge amount of management time to run news talk stations.  It's almost like it's a different business than running music stations and ‑‑ as we've discovered.

4753             Also to generate the revenues that we do, which I think we also generate significant revenues at our radio stations, takes strong sales management, strong salespeople, and a fair amount of management time on that too.  So that the ‑‑ that's just what we do, and we think that the communities are way better served with that type of radio station than a lean, mean type approach.  So that explains it.

4754             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑Chair Arpin...?

4755             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you.

4756             You just said that you're doing Aboriginal programming.  Are you doing any Aboriginal programming here in Regina?

4757             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Sorry, not in Aboriginal language.

4758             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  But ‑‑ yes, but catering to the Aboriginal population?

4759             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Yeah, we produce a one‑hour show that runs on all of our AM stations in Saskatchewan, called Meeting Ground, and we also have run ‑‑ and that's run, I think, twice a week, but it's a one‑hour show and then repeated once.  And we also run a series of vignettes for a number of years called Seeds of Success.  Those are very short, a number of those just talking about success stories in the Aboriginal community.  Both those programs take way more time and expense and the ‑‑ than any audience or revenue generated from them.

4760             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  The ‑‑ I have a few questions but I will have to be quiet.  I'm playing with some confidential information so I need to be ‑‑ my questions may not be as clear as one could ‑‑ will have liked.  But you're just saying that ‑‑ and I'm looking at aggregate numbers for the two companies that are working here in this market, at least to ‑‑ as a starter.

4761             You did mention that the ‑‑ you have a good base of employees that you have kept growing, but I notice that from the year 2002 to the year 2005 the market had a decline of close to 15 employees altogether so ‑‑ or rather ‑‑ so I think you have ‑‑ you have had to ‑‑ the market had ‑‑ the players in the market have had to look in making some decisions because I know ‑‑ notice also that, here, 2002 was not a beautiful year.  The PBITs were negative for that year, so obviously some decisions had to be made and ‑‑ but the decline in the number of employees has been constant.  If it wasn't a drop of 15, it was ‑‑ started by 7, then 2 others and then 5 others and ‑‑ just in the year 2005.

4762             If you are saying that you're ‑‑ because ‑‑ I'm asking the question because you said that at Rawlco you can ‑‑ you've maintained ‑‑ even in difficult times you maintained the base of the ‑‑ of your employees.  Does that mean it's the competitor that has ‑‑ decrees its number of employees?  And I will ask them also a very similar question.

4763             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  I don't have the statistics in front of me for that, but it's not my understanding that we have decreased them.  And I've ‑‑ quite frankly, I'm not sure that they have either, so I think that may be just a difference in the way it was filed or something.  I don't know, but I don't believe that we've decreased the number of employees that we have.  I can think of several areas where we've increased.

4764             MS LEYLAND:  Yeah, I would echo that from, you know, practical running of radio stations' point of view, that we have increased.  And Gord often will speak to me about the fact that we're adding employees in additional areas to do the new things that we want to do.

4765             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I see.  The ‑‑ we've been made aware that some corporate expenses have been applied to the station for ‑‑ and those corporate expenses obviously do increase the expense line of the operation of the organization, shall it be a factor that we keep in mind in calculating the PBIT?  We ‑‑ we're to ‑‑ or should we deduct the ‑‑ in re‑establishing the PBITs, should we deduct the corporate expense?

4766             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Mr. Arpin, we are a small company, and it would seem to us that corporate expenses have to be charged somewhere.  So, you know, when you file your CRTC returns, there isn't a separate category for corporate expense and then for each individual radio station.  They have to be allocated amongst your radio stations.

4767             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  But they've been allocate ‑‑ to my knowledge, they have not been allocated to all of your radio stations.  You've chosen some markets.

4768             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  That's not ‑‑ that ‑‑ they have been allocated to all radio stations in what we consider to be a reasonable manner, yes, all radio stations.

4769             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Okay.  Mr. Goldstein, in your conclusions you said that, based on your evaluation, no radio station ‑‑ no new ‑‑ or you're saying no new commercial radio station into the regional ‑‑ Regina market should be approved.  Will you consider the two Aboriginal applicants that we heard this morning to be a commercial player?  Because they are looking to ‑‑ to raise advertising revenues, and we surely heard clearly some numbers from Natotawin and in the other case, they are contemplating more or less sponsorship rather than straight advertising.

4770             MS LEYLAND:  No, we are fine with those applications.

4771             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  You're fine with those two applications?

4772             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  As am I.

4773             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Okay.  No, but I know that you were ‑‑ I was asking myself, you were considering them as commercial because they do ‑‑ they are contemplating advertising revenues?

4774             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  No, they ‑‑ first of all, obviously at the time I wrote that, I was looking at their applications as filed, but I don't think that anything they've said would tilt things so far as to cause a problem.

4775             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you very much.  Those were my questions.

4776             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Williams...?

4777             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good afternoon, Mr. Rawlinson, Ms Leyland and Mr. Goldstein and panelists.  Mr. Goldstein, I'm a little bit confused and maybe you can help me.  Are you under a retainer arrangement with Rawlco or any other applicant here?

4778             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  I am not under retainer.

4779             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Are you getting paid in any way?

4780             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Oh, I'm absolutely getting paid of course.

4781             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yeah, okay.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

4782             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  And I ‑‑

4783             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I was just trying to ‑‑

4784             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Absolutely, and ‑‑

4785             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  ‑‑ trying to figure out if you were here as a volunteer or if somebody hired you.

4786             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  ‑‑ and handsomely so.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

4787             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  But this was made very clear in our letter of intervention and ‑‑

4788             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yeah.

4789             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  ‑‑ and in the report.

4790             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:    I just wanted to clarify that.

4791             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Absolutely.

4792             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yeah, I just ‑‑ why I wanted to know is that you answered separately to the last question of Vice‑Chair Arpin.  You said, "As am I", which I kind of said, oh, gees maybe he is here a little independent other than what I've heard earlier.  Okay.

4793             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  We may have hired Ken, but he still has his own opinions.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

4794             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yeah, okay.  Well, Mr. Goldstein, you're an economist, and I'm very far from an economist.  I'm a small businessman and a regulator, I guess.

4795             I read in today's paper at lunch, you may not have ‑‑ may or may not have read the same article, but the CIBC World Markets issued an economic report stating that the economic boom in Saskatchewan leads the country second only to Alberta.  And this information was published in today's local newspaper, and the article further states that the economic boom is primarily resource based, the funds flowing to government coffers of such a current projected volume that the Saskatchewan Government has reduced provincial sales tax by more than 25 percent.

4796             So I'm wondering, in your opinion as an economist, do you think that the growth opportunities for Saskatchewan may be a little more optimistic than we've been hearing?  Maybe in the 2001 to 2005 time frame averaged over those years might produce a slightly different than ‑‑ a different forecast than the most recent experience has been demonstrating?

4797             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  I have the article here.

4798             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, good.  Yeah.

4799             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  I also saw it.  I would point out that the projection, first of all ‑‑ actually, if you notice, I've used the Conference Board as my going forward.

4800             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yeah.

4801             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  The projection in CIBC for 2006 is actually a little lower than the Conference Board one that I relied on.  And for the year after, it's actually a little higher, so it works out about the same over those two years.

4802             But I think the key point here is that I would love every part of Canada to boom forever.  We're dealing with a situation of resource commodity prices, and I think it's important to continue reading in that same article where it says the economist who's quoted, it says, "It's no secret that Saskatchewan has long had a below‑average rate of population growth, and it is that population that listens to the radio ‑‑ not the wells, not the mines, not the potash, but it's the population that listens to the radio."

4803             And I wish it were otherwise and I think that I would like everything good to happen in this province, but when I look at the reality of where we're at in the radio business, where we're at in the kinds of indicators that affect the radio business, I would be very cautious.

4804             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yeah.  Elsewhere in that newspaper and others, they talk about vast inventories of industrial property and other real estate stock being bought up and sold quickly, another ‑‑ I guess to my layman's limited knowledge of how things go up and down, that things actually are really improving here.  Like, people are buying stuff and maybe there will be people coming here.  Would you be saying that that's ‑‑

4805             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Let's hope so.

4806             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Let's hope so?  Okay, yeah.  Okay ‑‑

4807             MR. RAWLINSON:  Commissioner Williams ‑‑

4808             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  It's a cautious optimism, I guess, is what I'm hearing.

4809             MR. RAWLINSON:  I'm sorry, I kind of jumped in on you.  I apologize.

4810             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yeah, that's ‑‑ no, that's fine.

4811             MR. RAWLINSON:  I just want to make a quick comment, but I think things do look better today than they have for a while, for the future.  And I'd ‑‑ really do hope that things are going to improve.  We just had so many false starts and, you know, I've had ‑‑ we've had many times when we've had ‑‑ said, boy, you know, the next couple of years are really looking good for Saskatchewan when they first started developing uranium in Saskatchewan, when potash came along, and it ‑‑ there's been a number of time ‑‑ things that we thought were really going to make a huge difference, and they have.  But there's this incredible ‑‑ there's two things.

4812             There's this ‑‑ the agricultural population has continued to decline, so that's a factor.  And the other thing is is that we have the bad fortune of living next to Alberta, and it just ‑‑ as much as we try in Saskatchewan, Alberta just keeps sucking the people out, and so it's ‑‑ so I'm ‑‑ I am hopeful that things are going to get better, and we're not saying they're terrible now.  We're just saying we're hoping that things will really ‑‑ for once really start to boom here, but they haven't yet.

4813             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  One of the big differences I see between these two provinces, and I've had the advantage of living in Alberta for the last few years, but I didn't live there all the time ‑‑ is I think there's a ‑‑ there was an attitude, I remember when I first went there, and I think they called it the Alberta advantage, which was relatively low prices, well‑educated workforce and, you know, a gung ho attitude about their future opportunity which didn't look that good in the early '90s in Alberta either.

4814             Now, Saskatchewan's probably got a better educated public.  I think it's one of the most educated publics in the country.  I don't know that for sure.  Maybe Mr. Goldstein would know that.  And it's got resources that one of the other articles I read ‑‑ and I apologize, but I read everything that I can get my hands on.  And it says the large ‑‑ that possibly the largest oilfield find since 1953 in the southwestern corner, I guess, of Saskatchewan and dropping down into Montana and some of the lower States.  And the other 1953 oil find is the one basically that got Alberta into the big time the first time anyway.

4815             So I guess if I would look at Saskatchewan, I'd say there's a real Saskatchewan advantage because now Alberta is plagued with high housing prices.  You can't find labour or trades anywhere.  I'd say the boom economies do have a bit of a down side, and it's hard to get anything done.  And when you do get stuff done, it's very expensive, which would ‑‑ I guess companies that were looking for some sort of advantage, to look naturally toward Saskatchewan.

4816             And then I was thinking, well, maybe that's why this industrial land is being bought up and maybe that's why there's residential projects under construction.  Like, they're not building them for ‑‑ and hoping someone would come.  I would imagine that the people financing them, unless they're financing them out of their back pockets, would expect them to have a real reasonable opportunity to recoup that money so they could pay back the debt.

4817             Do you have ‑‑ like, I just don't see it as frightening an economic prospect in this province as I've been hearing to some extent.

4818             MR. RAWLINSON:  Well, I'll comment quickly and then let Ken speak to that.  But quite frankly, I don't think we are feeling that it's frightening.  I think that we think that Saskatchewan is, as it always has been, pretty steady and things do ‑‑ the prospects do look good.

4819             All we're suggesting is is that, you know, if you come right back to the licensing issue, there's ‑‑ if you give an extra licence to a market, and it proves to be too many, it throws the market into destruction for a long time, and you can't take it back.

4820             If you under‑licence, i.e. if there should have been a licence granted, and you say "Well, let's just wait for several years", you can't correct that.  But we've had a case ‑‑ it came up yesterday, I think, where somebody said, "Gee, the last station in Regina was 20‑some years ago".

4821             Well, you know, Regina radio was really over‑radioed for that period and is ‑‑ what happened was there was actually two licenses given at that time, and it went from four radio stations to six radio ‑‑ I'm talking commercial radio stations, commercial mainstream stations.

4822             And subsequent to that, several of the radio stations had severe financial difficulties.  Almost all of them changed hands, and it was one of the worst radio markets for many, many years.  And, you know, the ‑‑ Mr. Hill had to come in and buy some stations, and the great old CKCK actually ‑‑ I don't know whether they went formally into receivership, but it virtually went bankrupt.  I mean there was some really tough times for virtually every other radio station in the marketplace, except the two that we had that ‑‑ and we struggled and we had losses and so on, but at least we were able to carry on.

4823             And so making an ‑‑ over‑licensing, at any given time, really it just takes a long time to get it sorted and usually there's some tremendous turmoil in the meantime.  If you say "Well, we're not sure" and say ‑‑ and we can always come back a couple of times ‑‑ several years later, and so I'm saying that ‑‑ right back to your question on the economics ‑‑ there are some things that look promising, but we have had those kind of promising prospects before.

4824             That oilfield that you mentioned is an oilfield that everybody, I think, knew existed except they thought it had been primarily tapped out.  They thought it was a certain level, and they've now discovered ‑‑

4825             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes, there's a new technology ‑‑

4826             MR. RAWLINSON:  ‑‑ a new type of drilling.

4827             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  ‑‑ that's come forward or something that's ‑‑

4828             MR. RAWLINSON:  Yes, new technology and they're thinking that it can ‑‑

4829             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yeah.

4830             MR. RAWLINSON:  ‑‑ develop into something and so ‑‑ and I'm somewhat familiar.  That's actually, I think, southeastern Saskatchewan.  My wife's family is from down there, and you see the odd well there, but then you also see one that was from 20 years ago that ‑‑ they aren't prolific wells, and they do cost more money to drill these wells but, yes, there is some potential for that.

4831             So again, let's hope.  But we're still next to Alberta where, you're right, things are more expensive, but there's ‑‑ but the jobs also pay a lot more and there's still that appeal to get people to go there.  So there are some people actually that are saying "Hey, things are a lot cheaper in Saskatchewan; let's move back to Saskatchewan" or "Let's move to Saskatchewan".  Let's hope there's a lot more of those but, still today, the trend is still the opposite direction so ‑‑

4832             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Yeah, and just a couple of very quick comments.  First of all, I looked at that map of the oilfield.  I was trying to see if it extended into Manitoba ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

4833             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  No.

4834             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  But it didn't get as far as where I live so ‑‑

4835             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Just a little along the border.

4836             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Yeah, yeah.  The second thing when you talk about Alberta, it's actually true it's overheated and peoples always say "You know, it's overheated; this will happen", and it reminds me of something that Yogi Berra once said.  "Nobody goes there anymore; it's too crowded."

4837             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yeah.

4838             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  But very seriously, it would be really nice to see this turn around.  It would be really nice to see the population turn around, so we're weighing a couple of factors here.  We're weighing some of these signs that say, you know, maybe this will happen.  Maybe these commodity prices will stay at this level.  Maybe we'll be able to spin off from the commodity prices into certain other kinds of activities ‑‑ maybe, maybe, maybe.

4839             On the other hand, we see Statistics Canada issue a projection that show that, over the next 25 years, only Saskatchewan and Newfoundland will lose population.  We see the Conference Board projections for the next five years, so I guess you want to go with your hopes.  You certainly don't want to play to your fears, but the real numbers as they're currently laid out in front of us, I still think say caution.

4840             And I agree completely with what Gordon said, caution lets you correct on the plus side later.  Lack of caution doesn't let you correct later.

4841             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Well, thank you very much, Mr. Rawlinson and Goldstein.  That's my questions, Madam Chair.

4842             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Round 2, Commissioner Pennefather...?

4843             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Brief question, Mr. Goldstein.  The Conference Board report that you referenced in your presentation today, what is the date of that?

4844             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Fall '06.

4845             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Fall '06?

4846             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Yeah.

4847             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And it was just pointed out to me that while perhaps decline ‑‑ are the growth rates not as such positive?  For example, 2008 is 2.4 percent; 2009, 2.3 percent.  Do the rates ‑‑ they're positive however.

4848             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  The rates are positive but lower than they were and lower than Canada.

4849             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

4850             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

4851             I have a few questions.  I read your report, Mr. Goldstein, and my initial reaction was that part of the problem with the Regina and Saskatoon markets is the size of the incumbents and that they're not Rogers, where they get to amortize their expenses over ‑‑ the same expense, you know, over Lord knows how many stations, and so scale is part of the problem or the size of the incumbents is part of the problem.

4852             And I guess I then want to go to the issue of your linking profitability and gross revenues, and the thing between gross revenues and profitability is expenses.  And so then that leads me ‑‑ Mr. Rawlinson to say ‑‑ to ask you to inform us, either now or on a confidential basis, who has paid the costs, the pre‑application costs of your applications to Edmonton and to Calgary?  And is that a cost of the company?  Has it been expensed through Rawlco?

4853             And secondly, have you been capitalizing the staff costs, not capital costs but staff costs of the launch of the Edmonton station?  I know Ms Leyland spent a good number of days and I'm sure other staff has, too, on that station.  And I know you would capitalize your capital expenses, but did you also capitalize your staff costs or have they gone into the expenses?

4854             And my point is drawing a string between the revenues and the expenses and ‑‑ because as Mr. Goldstein said, PBIT is what's left over after the cost of earning that revenue, not future revenue.  So I'm asking that you would provide us with that information on a confidential basis and if you could, if possible, quantify the pre‑application costs of both Edmonton and Calgary, and the staff costs if indeed they have not been capitalized into the launch of Edmonton?  Could you do that?  And I don't know what's reasonable in terms of a length of time to answer.

4855             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Would a week be reasonable?

4856             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sure, within a week, yeah.

‑‑‑ UNDERTAKING / ENGAGEMENT

4857             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now ‑‑ and this is not rocket science, but I'll do it as if I'm the best litigator in the world.  I agree with you that the population has not changed in Saskatchewan but, Ms Leyland, has the distribution of that population changed?

4858             MS LEYLAND:  This microphone, by the way, is faulty, so I'm just ‑‑

4859             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I noticed that.  I was going to tell Claude, yes.

4860             MS LEYLAND:  Intermittent electrical problem.  Yes, as we both know because we've lived here for a while.

4861             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, and that's the point because we're talking ‑‑ we're not talking about Saskatchewan.  We're talking about Regina and Saskatoon, and that's where the population increases have happened.  And you want to say something about that, Mr. Goldstein?  Please.  Because you were talking about the number of years to listen, and that's ‑‑

4862             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Yes, just as a very simple example ‑‑ we're talking about Regina, so let's talk about Regina.

4863             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah.

4864             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  And the comment that was made about the last new station licence in this market was over 20 years ago, so I dutifully went on to the Statistics Canada site and I looked up the population from 1986 of the Regina census metropolitan area and it was 190,566.

4865             THE CHAIRPERSON:  In when, I'm sorry?

4866             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  1986.

4867             THE CHAIRPERSON:  '86.

4868             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  190,566, and according to Statistics Canada in 2005 199,041, so that's not what you'd call a huge increase over a 20‑year period.

4869             So when we talk about the proportions changing, if you look only at the proportion of Regina as a proportion of Saskatchewan and say it's gone up, yes, it has.  Part of it is because the population of Regina has gone up a little and part of it is because the rural population has gone down a lot.

4870             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  What about the extended CMA?

4871             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  That is the ECMA.

4872             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The extended ‑‑ the ECMA?

4873             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  It's as Statistics Canada defines the census metropolitan area.  It's ‑‑

4874             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, but what about the surrounding areas because of the bedroom communities now?

4875             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  That ‑‑ that's all ‑‑ see, the definition of a CMA is to include bedroom communities.  That's how they define a CMA.

4876             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  I thought there was another one when we were doing ‑‑

4877             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Well, there are extended ‑‑

4878             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ the telephone ‑‑

4879             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  ‑‑ markets in television and there's a central market for BBN Radio.

4880             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah, okay.

4881             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  And my recollection is that central and CMA are identical.

4882             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Okay, I think that's ‑‑ I think we can let you off the hot seat.  Thank you very much.

4883             MS LEYLAND:  Thank you.

4884             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary...?

4885             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

4886             I will now call the next appearing intervener, Hospitals of Regina Foundation.  If you would come forward please?

‑‑‑ Pause

4887             THE SECRETARY:  Would you please identify yourself or introduce yourself?  And then you will have ten minutes for your presentation.

4888             Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

4889             MS DAVIS:  Good afternoon.  My name is Judy Davis, and I am the chief executive officer for the Hospitals of Regina Foundation.  I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to appear before the hearing this afternoon.

4890             The Hospitals of Regina Foundation is the largest charity of its kind in the Regina area.  We are an independent, voluntary‑led organization that raises funds for medical technology, education and research for Regina's hospitals.

4891             Because we do not receive any funding for government, we rely on individuals, corporations and community groups for our financial support.  Our collective efforts have had an immensely positive impact on the quality of care provided, which has also held ‑‑ helped attract and retain medical professionals in our community.

4892             I'm proud to say that since our inception in 1988, the foundation has raised over $65 million in support of better health care.  This year alone, the foundation will raise in excess of $7 million that will be invested in new operating room equipment, a new cardiac cath lab, breast and prostate assessment equipment, and patient comfort items like electric beds and lifts.

4893             Our success comes from our partnerships, and one of the most important partnerships we have built has been with Rawlco Radio, and we are grateful to them for their ongoing support through the annual Z99 radiothon that benefits the new neonatal intensive care unit at the Regina General Hospital.

4894             This year will make the 20th annual radiothon in support of better medical equipment for the tiniest babies.  It is immensely popular in our community and extremely successful.  To date, over $1.4 million has been raised.

4895             Perhaps in some circles this would not be considered significant.  However, in our city and a city this size, it has meant the difference between using new state of the art technology versus getting by with old outdated equipment.

4896             The commitment of Rawlco Radio goes far beyond the radiothon.  It truly extends to their employees who are committed ambassadors of the foundation, spread word about the need for enhanced health care.

4897             Station manager Tom Newton served on the foundation board until his term expired last year and now Z99 program director, Kristy Werner, has come on board to fill that gap.

4898             The total Rawlco team commitment is further demonstrated through the work done by a number of Z99 staff to line up pledged support from businesses in the community to ensure financial goals are met for the radiothon.

4899             Publicity is extensive and begins well in advance of the event.  In addition to the on‑air interviews, promotional ads and donor testimonials, a number of brochures are distributed throughout our community.  As a foundation, we could not accomplish this level of publicity and support without Z99's efforts.

4900             Together we have built an event that culminates in a 36‑hour live broadcast.  By sharing inspirational stories and encouraging people to give generously, Z99 has created a lifeline of support for the new neonatal unit.  The goal this year is to raise funds to purchase heart monitors.  All babies need their heart rate and breathing monitored, and these new monitors are absolutely state of the art.

4901             Rawlco Radio's commitment to the children of southern Saskatchewan extends far beyond the radiothon.  In 2004, Rawlco announced a $1.5 million donation to establish the Rawlco Centre for Mother Baby Care at the Regina General Hospital.  It's an exciting project that will have an impact on families for generations to come.

4902             As the lead donor for the foundation's Small is Big Campaign to furnish and equip the new centre, Rawlco demonstrated true leadership and their support was the catalyst to encourage others to come on board.  Our campaign would not have achieved the success that it did without their support.

4903             Rawlco is truly a company that is philanthropic and community minded and aims to make a difference where its employees live and work.  And that's really why I'm here today, to highlight the contributions Rawlco Radio makes to the quality of life in Regina, and demonstrate how important their support is to the Hospitals of Regina Foundation.

4904             I value the partnership we've built with Rawlco over many years and their generous airing of foundation public service announcements and support of all of our fundraising goals has greatly assisted us in brand awareness and the funds that we have raised.

4905             I am concerned that increased competition in our market could impact our existing relationship and decrease the effectiveness of our partnership in our shared efforts to raise funds in the community.  It is my hope that the environment remains such that our partnership continues to blossom and grow for 20 more years.

4906             Thank you.

4907             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

4908             MS DAVIS:  Thank you.

4909             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary...?

4910             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

4911             I would now call on the next appearing intervener, Paul Martin Communications, if you could come forward?

‑‑‑ Pause

4912             THE SECRETARY:  If you could introduce yourself?  And then you will have ten minutes for your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

4913             MR. MARTIN:  Thank you.

4914             Good afternoon.  I'm Paul Martin, president of Paul Martin Communications and I'd like to ‑‑

4915             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If I could just interject?

4916             MR. MARTIN:  Yes.

4917             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Not the Paul Martin from Montreal?

4918             MR. MARTIN:  No, the other ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

4919             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The real Paul Martin.

4920             MR. MARTIN:  I think I referred to it the other day as the employed one.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

4921             MR. MARTIN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

4922             I'd like to add some further comments to the written submission that I made so I thank you for the opportunity to join you.

4923             In particular, I'm going to focus on two main areas which you've heard a fair bit about and I'd just like to add my voice to it.  There's been lots of discussion about Saskatchewan's population and I guess it's, in my characterization, is at best static, which is perhaps considered the optimistic view in the province.

4924             In fact, we've suffered net out‑migration every year since ‑‑ 1992 was the last positive year we had, and there may be some arguments that we're about to see another one of those bumps where we could get back onto the positive side.

4925             And we have an economy here that's quite cyclical, and it seems that our cycle comes once every 25 years, and we may be on the edge of ‑‑ or sort of around it.  There are some indicators suggesting 2005 may have been the hot year and in 2006 we're beginning to see a bit of a decline, and we'll continue to see that going forward there.

4926             There were some references to economic forecasts, CIBC World Markets in particular today.  There was one about ten days ago from one of the other major banks which would play Saskatchewan in that fourth spot, so probably in that 3 to 3 and a half percent range is what the general consensus is.  So while it's strong by Saskatchewan standard, certainly not anything that is nationally outstanding.

4927             But as we watch the out‑migration issue, as someone who has been involved in writing about business issues and political issues in this province, and also now more engaged in policy formation on the economic front ‑‑ you know, we've watched this out‑migration challenge significantly.  We like to jokingly say that when the Roughriders play in Calgary, it's a home game.  And that may be the very reason why they won't let our mascot in there this weekend.

4928             But the result here has been what economists call a hollowed‑out economy or we have a high dependency ratio and that we have a high number of young people, and that is predominantly seen in the rapid growth rates in the population base in the Aboriginal community, and then we have a high number of seniors, disproportionately high compared to the national average.  Our problem is inbetween, between 19 and 64 in working age, if you want, where we have significantly below the national average in terms of population within each of those age categories.

4929             In fact, the most likely person to leave Saskatchewan is between the ages of 19 and 24, and 60 percent or 59 percent of them will go to Alberta.  So we've seen this trend going and, while many in policy circles in the province are optimistic we can reverse it, at this point we've not seen it.

4930             It's been since ‑‑ 1982 was the last time ‑‑ well, that was the first negative, so '81 was the last positive number that we saw in terms of migration.

4931             But we have indeed seen some population shifts within the province as we've seen consolidation.  In rural, in agricultural communities farms are larger, fewer people on each piece of land.  They have tended to move more to the urban centres, and so we've seen a little bit of shifting within the province.  But generally, if you look at the provincial numbers, they have not changed very significantly at all.

4932             This has been a key issue for the business community and for politicians, and we are beginning to see work into political platforms into the policy discussion that goes on here.

4933             In terms of what we see within the major urban centres, Regina, I think, has probably been slower in its growth but is more stable.  It's anchored by government finance, insurance type industries more on the service side sector.

4934             Saskatoon has been somewhat more volatile.  It has enjoyed a bit of growth in the last few years compared to Regina.  It's industrially based, but that tends to be more volatile.  And it is more vulnerable to closures as we've ‑‑ of major industries as we've seen in the last little while the loss of a pulp and paper mill just north of Saskatoon and, more recently, the announcement of an impending closure of that ‑‑ or a major meat processing facility in Saskatoon.

4935             In fact we've even seen this ‑‑ the people that were displaced, in particular with Prince Albert.  Now we've seen the new air service being added from Saskatoon through Prince Albert and on to Fort McMurray, so what we're seeing is the population might reside here but in fact is working in Alberta and commuting back and forth.

4936             And that takes me to the broader issue, I think, of market fragmentation, and it is a concern of mine.  As someone who's engaged in broadcasting in the community, I freelance for the Rawlco chain and for also Golden West and I had ‑‑ I do a business commentary, and they're heard as well on the Yorkton station.

4937             You know, at the root of all of this audience is what it's all about, and if the audience isn't growing ‑‑ and yet, that's contrasted by the number of media options that are coming along, and I think I delineated those in my written piece.  You really can't help but have market fragmentation.

4938             And I get worried about that because there was a point in my career where I was doing television.  We had a television program.  It was a very high quality TV show produced here in Regina and then later in Saskatoon with the CTV operations, and won pretty much every award that we could ever submit it to.  We took the show around the world.  We had budgets that enabled us to go to China, to the UK, to the United States.  Not only is that show gone, but many of the other programs that were generated here locally are gone as well.

4939             I saw that as nothing more than a byproduct of fragmentation.  As the audiences decline, simply the advertising revenue wasn't there to the station and they were forced, through prudence, to have to trim back their program options.  And as a result, alternative voices within the province, such as mine, were not available on that station anymore.  But perhaps more importantly, from an audience perspective, was that we were served less local, more national.  And the local stories were not being told.  Certainly the business stories were not being told as well or in any sort of in‑depth fashion.

4940             So I raise that as a concern, that I worry about any additional licences being granted.  While on the surface that sounds great, all the options ‑‑ all the more options the better, as long as we don't lose what we've already got.  If we have to undermine the program options that we've got in order for more a variety or more of the same or different version of the same, I would not be a real fan of that.  I would think that at least maintain the standard of programming that we've got.

4941             You know, to bring in more John Tess really just doesn't seem to be progress to me.  I'd much rather that have a greater opportunity to have more in-depth coverage of ‑‑ brought to the airways by people who live here locally, rather than importing more product.

4942             So my concern is a dual one; if the population is not growing and we add more licences to it, we just fragment the marketplace further and undermine what we've already got.  So thank you.

4943             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Williams has a question.

4944             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  In terms of adding more licences, your comment is you'd rather just ‑‑ well, you know your comment.  Does that hold true for the addition of the Aboriginal applicants that claim that they're currently underserved, the market is underserved for their community?

4945             MR. MARTIN:  You know, I think I'd probably echo their view.  I think that in the last five to ten years the voices of the First Nations and the Aboriginal community have begun to be heard, but they weren't heard at all before that.  So we've made some progress, but I think that they've got a long ways to go.  And, you know, we ‑‑ I think probably there's some merit in continuing to allow that to continue to grow.

4946             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Thank you very much for that.

4947             MR. MARTIN:  Yeah.

4948             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I have no further questions, Madam Chair.

4949             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑Chair Arpin has a couple of questions.

4950             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yeah, Mr. Martin, we also heard an application for a gospel music radio station, and I don't think gospel music is offered in this market.

4951             MR. MARTIN:  Not to the best of my knowledge.

4952             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  No.  And do you think it will be ‑‑ it will complement the radio offering in the market or will it be a competitor that you think should be of a similar nature than the other more programming genre that ‑‑ more commercial programming genre?

4953             MR. MARTIN:  It ‑‑ and I don't know that I can comment.  I don't know what their business case was, whether they were going to look for local advertising revenue or not but ‑‑

4954             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  They're looking for some significant advertising revenues.

4955             MR. MARTIN:  From the local market?

4956             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes.

4957             MR. MARTIN:  Presumably that would be a further fragmentation that would disrupt ‑‑ and my baseline theory is that I'm not necessarily opposed to the addition of voices.  I just want to make sure that if you give us more, we don't take away what we've already got.  Let's build upon the foundation but not undermine the foundation.

4958             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  The ‑‑ it's not necessarily in this room, but surely outside the room, I'm hearing a lot about how important the government is in this province.  And do you have an idea of where the share of advertising that the government is investing in the overall media, and the radio in particular?

4959             MR. MARTIN:  I have no idea of what their share of advertising revenue is.  But just as a general conversation or observation, I would think that you're hearing pretty accurate stuff, that the government is fairly well involved in this economy, yes.

4960             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So ‑‑

4961             MR. MARTIN:  And I was in the newspaper business at one point and I just wish the government would have bought more at that time but ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

4962             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So they never buy enough?

4963             MR. MARTIN:  They didn't buy enough from me anyway.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

4964             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  But it's also got ‑‑ government expenditures is also somehow cyclical; when the elections are coming, they're investing more than the day after the election.

4965             MR. MARTIN:  Well, that's absolutely accurate, especially the day after a change in government.  But, you know, they're cyclical in two contexts.  One, there's the political cycle, but there's also the economic cycle.  And I think that, you know, much has been said about the oil industry, and certainly that's been quite a potent catalyst for the province, but we don't have a lot of oil companies headquartered here ‑‑ a couple of small ones.

4966             Most of the money that's generated from the oil industry, any profits tend to ‑‑ from the production side at least, tend to flow outside the province.  The only place that it gets captured is either in the service industry or in the provincial treasury through royalties, which then allows the province to, you know, open it's purse to do what it does.

4967             And it has recently added some advertising campaigns to the mix but, you know, that too, is cyclical as well.  I mean we've seen certainly the rise on the oil and gas side and on the mineral side, but at the same time, we've seen significant challenges on the forestry side and now we're seeing some on the value added side in agriculture.

4968             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you very much, Mr. Martin.

4969             MR. MARTIN:  You're welcome.

4970             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Madam Chair...?

4971             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Martin.  Nice to see you again.  There ‑‑ we have no more questions.

4972             MR. MARTIN:  Well, thank you very much.

4973             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary...?

4974             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

4975             I would now call Mr. Neil Meckelborg to come forward to present his intervention.

‑‑‑ Pause

4976             MR. MECKELBORG:  Test, test.  It's working?

4977             THE SECRETARY:  I would ask that you introduce yourself and then you will have ten minutes for your presentation.

4978             Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

4979             MR. MECKELBORG:  My name is Neil Meckelborg.  I'm a recording engineer, songwriter, record producer, studio owner, weekend musician and director of Rawlco's 10K20 program.  These are two of the 29 artists that recorded CD's with 10K20's support this year; Kim Fontaine from Saskatoon and Morgan Mayer from Regina.

4980             I've been a professional musician for almost 30 years and a Saskatchewan resident most of my life.  I've played in numerous rock and roll bands over the years, the most successful of which was a seven‑year ‑‑ seven years as lead singer for Saskatoon's Line Up in Paris.  Two albums, two radio singles and video that was aired on MuchMusic, as well as five years of touring from Victoria to Toronto, has left me with some wonderful memories as well as the kind of music industry understanding that only comes from experience.

4981             After the demise of Line Up, I began putting some of the studio skills I'd learned over the years to use, recording bands myself.  This led to a basement studio, a garage studio, my own facility, and now partnership in one of Saskatchewan's largest recording facilities, Audio Art Recording in Saskatoon.  I also served on the Saskatchewan Recording Industry Association board of directors for two years.

4982             Rawlco Radio approached me earlier this year to be the director for their 10K20 program.  This is a program where 20 artists from Saskatchewan are given $10,000 each to make a CD.  I gladly accepted the opportunity and was very exited about the project.

4983             It wasn't until I was on my way home from the meeting, however, that I really started to realize what this actually meant.  Twenty artists from Saskatchewan getting ten grand each to record an album.  That's 20 artists.  As a musician living in the province most of my life, I think it is safe to say that there's never been this much of an infusion of support into the Saskatchewan music industry at one time.

4984             The project was launched in April, and we were flooded with requests.  There were almost 250 applications.  I was amazed at the number of people applying and the quality of the applications.  The most daunting task was going to be choosing 20.  Then Rawlco made my job easier and found funding for nine more albums, bringing the total to 29.

4985             That's almost $300,000 pumped into the Saskatchewan music economy over the course of one year.  I think it's safe to say that that has never happened before, and it's also a precedent, I think as far as I know, in the country.  I don't think anything other than government support in either provincial or a federal level has matched that.

4986             My job as director was to identify artists that would be funding candidates and help them through the process of their recordings.  This meant anything from helping them find studios, musicians and producers to just advice and opinions on how the project was progressing.

4987             The finished albums began arriving in September, but the majority have arrived in the last month or few weeks.  At this point we have 23 of 29 completed, and 5 of the remaining 6 are scheduled for completion within the next few weeks.

4988             One 10K20 artist ran into a major snag when the producer he was going to use for his album was no longer available.  Scheduling made it impossible for the producer to participate in the album project, and the entire project was put on hold until another producer could be found.  This situation put the artist in an awkward position, and I feel it noteworthy to point out that Rawlco chose to continue his funding instead of cutting him off when the original funding agreement was no longer possible.  The artist is currently negotiating with other producers and is hoping to have his album completed by the end of the year.

4989             Rawlco has made a commitment to playing these artists and many other local artists as well.  This is an important point and one that I have witnessed countless times driving home from work and hearing local bands on Rock 102 and C95 in Saskatoon.

4990             This fact is crucial to the success of this project.  Without airplay, these albums are likely to be sold off stage at gigs and sent off to record companies to be tossed out the back door because nobody's ever heard of them.

4991             The significance of a quality competitive recording for an artist's future development can't be overstated, and having it receive radio play is just as important.  It is so much more than just hearing yourself on the radio and having your buddies call you to up to ring your praises.  An album that is getting airplay is a sales tool, a calling card and a legitimization of the artist.

4992             With airplay, an artist can get more gigs that pay better.  They can sell more CDs at those gigs.  They can send their disk to record companies and expect some to actually listen to it.  If they're getting airplay, they must be for real.

4993             Other radio stations in other cities are far more likely to pick up a single if it's getting airplay somewhere else, and the list goes on.  I'll stop there, but if ‑‑ it's important to point out the importance of airplay as well as the recording.

4994             Something very cool that happened during the project, that I wasn't expecting, was the fact that most of the artists spent more than their $10,000.  Some doubled it.  This is significant because it says that they were willing not just to use up the free money and get the disk done, but take the opportunity to make the best record they could, which was part of the main goal of the project.

4995             That, to me, shows the true success of the project; to help artists that were ready and prepared record the best record that they could.  This goes without exception through the list of artists, from first‑time recording artists to seasoned veterans.  It was amazing.

4996             I personally have never seen anything generate so much excitement in the Saskatchewan music industry ‑‑ the supplies to artists that received funding, artists that applies ‑‑ applied and didn't, and non‑musicians alike.

4997             Project 10K20 has increased the output of professional album releases in the province this year by probably 50 percent, just single‑handedly from the project.  Project 10K20 ‑‑ I read that line.  And this all comes just in time for the Junos next summer too.  The Juno announcement a few weeks ago in Saskatoon talked about the new ground‑swell of interest in Saskatchewan on a national level and something like 10K20, and the continuation of it, is an immeasurable tool for the development of current and next generation Saskatchewan artists.

4998             The question I hear most often is are they going to do this again next year.  My understanding is that they will continue the program, but the numbers of artists funded will not ‑‑ has not yet been decided.  This is not an unexpected question, but I think it's ‑‑ it has more importance than you initially think.

4999             During this one year ‑‑ or doing this one year will give Saskatchewan a burst of new albums to show the country at the Junos, as well as a substantial increase in artists' confidence to go beyond gigs and touring and take their music to the rest of the world.

5000             With today's technology, that really isn't just a sappy thought; it's a fact.  However, doing something like 10K20 on an ongoing basis is a sustainable funding base to develop Saskatchewan talent for the future.  I'm trying not to sound like a romance novel here, but it's true.  Every ‑‑ even if five or ten artists were funded each year, it would be an opportunity for artists to focus their assets on making a better album than they could otherwise hope for.  And with airplay on a nationally recognized radio station, artists have a legitimate calling card to open doors that otherwise might not open.

5001             The Saskatchewan Government is currently bringing together music industry people to look at ways of helping the industry grow and prosper both within and outside of the province.  I think having Project 10K20 continuing on a regular basis would be a big step toward that goal happening.

5002             Thank you for your time.

5003             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cugini has a few questions for you.

5004             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Well, maybe just one, depending on your answer.  Thank you for being here this afternoon.  While I can agree that 10K20 is a laudable project for the artists that it has benefited and will continue to benefit, is it not advantageous to have as many radio outlets as possible in a market so that those CDs can get more airplay?

5005             MR. MECKELBORG:  The radio outlets, I'm ‑‑ I'm not ‑‑ I suppose that's a ‑‑ that is a legitimate point, but without the albums in the first place and without the albums of a quality that a radio will play, it's kind of a secondary point.  The albums first need to be there.

5006             And the fact that 10K20 is enough money for an album to record an album ‑‑ sorry, for an artist to record an album that is nationally competitive ‑‑ like, you can set it on the radio right next to the top ten, and you should be able to have a product that's competitive with that.  I think that's ‑‑ getting the album first is more of a priority.  And then on top of that, Rawlco is very supportive of these projects.  I've ‑‑ I haven't heard this many local bands on any other station in ‑‑ that I've heard of.

5007             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Are the artists that are supported by this project, are they restricted to any one genre of music?

5008             MR. MECKELBORG:  No, it's ‑‑

5009             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So it spans across all genres?

5010             MR. MECKELBORG:  Yeah, all cultural ‑‑ every ‑‑ everything from hip hop artists to rock and roll artists to country to pretty much across all genres.

5011             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Any Aboriginal artists?

5012             MR. MECKELBORG:  Yeah, there was a ‑‑ there's an Aboriginal hip hop artist, an Aboriginal country artist, and a Metis pop duo.

5013             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.  Thank you very much.

5014             MR. MECKELBORG:  Yeah, thank you.

5015             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. ‑‑ oh, Vice‑Chair Arpin...?

5016             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  To your knowledge, do the ‑‑ has these artists and their albums been played by other radio stations than Rawlco Radio stations?

5017             MR. MECKELBORG:  I'm not aware of ‑‑ at this point, I don't know.

5018             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Now, you ‑‑ we have two artists here today.  To their knowledge, has your CD been played elsewhere than on a Rawlco Radio station?

5019             MS FONTAINE:  Well, for me personally, I just handed in my masters three weeks ago, and they're just being added to the Rawlco rotation currently as we speak.  But it's up to the artist to market their material to other radio stations.  Whether or not the other artists have taken that step, I'm not aware of that yet.

5020             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Have you?

5021             MS MAYER:  I've been on the Rawlco Radio station since I was 11, and I haven't been on any other.  Rawlco has been very supportive through that and ‑‑ yeah, so ‑‑

5022             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you.

5023             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Meckelborg and ‑‑ I'm sorry, I forget who ‑‑

5024             THE SECRETARY:  May I ask the two ladies to identify themselves so you see your name on the transcript?

5025             MS FONTAINE:  My name is Kim Fontaine.

5026             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.

5027             MS MAYER:  My name is Morgan Mayer.

5028             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

5029             Madam Secretary...?

5030             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

5031             I would now like to call on the next four appearing interveners to appear as a panel as they are in support of Standard Radio:  MapleMusic & Open Road Recordings, The Good Brothers, The Poverty Plainsmen, and Birdsong Communications.  With respect to Birdsong Communications, they are not listed on the agenda.  That was inadvertently missed.

‑‑‑ Pause

5032             THE SECRETARY:  We'll start with MapleMusic and Open Road Recordings.  If you could identify yourself before you speak?  And you will each have ten minutes for your presentation.

5033             Go ahead.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

5034             MR. KITCHENER:  Good afternoon.

5035             My name is Ron Kitchener, and I own RGK Entertainment Group, an artist management company based in Toronto and Nashville.  We represent Jason McCoy, Core Blund(ph), Doc Walker, The Road Hammers, and Johnny Reid.  I also operate Canada's independent label of the year, three years running, Open Road Recordings partnered with MapleMusic.

5036             Country music radio remains an ‑‑ our number one priority in terms of promotion and opportunity when developing careers, launching CDs and marketing live concerts to the public.  The lack of an FM station in Regina is a significant missing link in a city of such strong country music support.

5037             While Regina ranks as one of our top and most important country markets in Canada, I believe the market could be so much stronger and significant to much of the prairie culture here in Saskatchewan.  The market has everything the format and industry require except an FM station satisfying the demand on an overflowing country music fan base.

5038             Regina has always been ideal for touring with numerous options that work for all levels of artists, from The Pump Roadhouse that has been supportive of new acts, to a thousand‑seat general admission facility, a 2,000‑plus‑seat art centre, and the Brandt Centre, a larger arena, not to mention the Regina Casino that has regularly hosted concerts and provided support spots to many developing local artists in front of national headliners.

5039             The annual country music festival in Craven, just down the road, is one of the top country music festivals in Canada, and the attendance numbers and the magnitude of talent placed on those stages over that weekend in July truly justify this area as a power house for the format.

5040             And I can speak for ‑‑ I feel I can speak for the entire country music industry to say how excited we are that Regina will host the 2007 Country Music Awards next September.

5041             Standard Broadcasting is an accomplished team with a strong national reputation and have been nothing but supportive to the development of my artists and country music in general.  The support for all formats and commitments to projects that benefit new and developing artists are very welcome and applauded by the entire music business.

5042             The annual radio awards during Canadian Music Week are one example.  Each year, whether through performance, presenting or an award winning, we have had an artist benefit from this event; Doc Walker in 2004, Johnny Reid in 2005, The Road Hammers earlier this year.

5043             Standard and Sound Source recently recorded a full one‑hour radio special around the release of Doc Walker's new album providing a professionally edited show that documents the rise of one of Canada's top bands and showcases material from their new album.  This show will air in over 20 markets across the country in ‑‑ this weekend in advance of that album coming out next week.

5044             Nationally, we have been able to create significant promotions with the Standard stations that increase our profile and provide valuable time exclusively for our artists.  For example, Standard's BX93 in London, Ontario have hosted our clients on a few occasions with basement concerts, where an artist will perform new songs for a small intimate audience with a show broadcast live at 6 p.m. prime time.  We have had success with label and management clients Jason McCoy, The Wilkinsons and Jake Matthews.

5045             Another leap‑of‑faith effort was creating a sound check party with QX104 in Winnipeg for Johnny Reid a couple years ago when he truly was in the early stages of development.  A chunk of promotion time was dedicated to bringing an audience down to the club for an exclusive event normally not accessible to the public, so it created a must see event.

5046             The benefit to Johnny in that market was truly important for his profile when he returned there six months later as part of a Brad Paisely/Terri Clark tour that played to 10,000 people at the MTS Centre.

5047             We are investing significant time and money into our artists' recordings in order to make them world class, and the FM signal allow us to sound that way ‑‑ sound the way the music should as it competes with all other music formats.

5048             Country music has a very loyal fan base and continues to have a growing younger audience, the new audience that is developing as the music changes and is represented in the new country format.

5049             Pop and rock fans are finding personal satisfaction with the sound of the country artists today and more so than they've received in the AC and the hot AC formats, and are testing and staying with new country.

5050             Standard's plan for 40 percent CanCon alone is a strong statement about how our format and the artists have grown and can provide world‑class music.  However, the most important item of the application is the announcement of playing the Canadian power currents as much as the national ones.

5051             By having it the other way, as many Canadian stations have it, we are denying the opportunity for Canadian artists to get played and therefore chart the same as the internationals.  The lack of Canadian artists topping our national charts has been unfortunate, and Standard's even‑play proposal will assist bringing us one step closer to fair and even play between Canadian and international artists on a national level.

5052             Standard's community focused programming and assistance towards the development of Saskatchewan artists, and therefore the industry, is impressive.  And I believe the rewards of that support will be shown sooner than later on a national stage.

5053             With so many ‑‑ with so little music available on the AM dials, it is not uncommon for the majority of the public to search elsewhere for the music they want, and unfortunately that is not talk‑dominated AM dial ‑‑ dials.

5054             In a market overflowing with loyal and new country music fans, an FM licence is the last remaining piece required here in Regina and paramount to continued growth in the format.

5055             Thank you for your time.

5056             THE SECRETARY:  We will continue with The Good Brothers.  If you could identify yourself?  And you'll have ten minutes.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

5057             MR. GOOD:  My name is Bruce Good.  I'm the leader of a group called The Good Brothers.  We have recorded 15 albums and we're fortunate enough to have received eight Juno awards for country group of the year over ‑‑ we've sold in excess of a quarter of a million records, and in '04 we were inducted into the Canadian Country Music Hall of Fame.

5058             I guess I'm here for a few reasons.  One is certainly gratitude to Standard Broadcasting who are partly responsible for the success that we enjoyed over the years, due to the fact that our outlawed brand of country music was not necessarily embraced by AM radio.  However, FM radio was there for us then.

5059             Now, it seems my sons have picked up the ball, carrying on the family tradition in a group called The Sadies.  In fact The Sadies performed here in Regina just last week and they headlined the Regina Folk Festival last summer.

5060             They run into the same problem, I suppose, that their father and their uncles did in that their brand of music isn't exactly the type that you'll here on AM radio.  So their hope is FM radio.  As they say, I guess, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

5061             But as a performer who has toured for more than 30 years, it's always been apparent that Regina has a large fan base and ‑‑ for country music.  We stop here on every tour, whether it's Buffalo Days or Craven or to perform at The Pump Roadhouse.  The Pump Roadhouse of course is the longest running country music establishment in Canada, and it's right here in this city.  Craven of course which draws tens of thousands of country fans, which is only a few kilometres north of the city, is up and running again and has been for the last couple of years, I understand.

5062             I guess the longevity of country music is proven by the fact these festivals and this ‑‑ the club that has been here so long are still running and still existing today.  In 2007 Regina will host the CCMA or Canadian Country Music Awards confirming this province and this city is a leader in Canadian country culture.

5063             Regina is like few cities in this great country of ours with its uptown rural atmosphere, a place where the country truly melds with the city.  We appreciate what CKRM has done for country music in the past and know that, as a pioneer in radio, they will continue to have a strong voice in Regina.  And I believe personally ‑‑ I believe that an FM station will actually help strengthen the already existing country station by introducing a new and younger audience to country music.

5064             We can continue, I suppose, with the status quo or the same old/same sold, but I'd like to see this city enjoy the excitement of an FM country station and think Standard Broadcasting is the one to deliver it and strengthen the future of Canadian country music.

5065             Thank you very much.

5066             THE SECRETARY:  We'll continue with The Poverty Plainsmen.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

5067             MR. SMITH:  Hi.  My name is Mark Smith, and I'm a lead singer and founder of the group The Poverty Plainsmen.  We are going to be celebrating our 20th year in the music business coming up here in 1997.  We currently are Canada's independent group of the year.  We won that year ‑‑ award last year in St. John.  We've been the country music ‑‑ Saskatchewan Country Music Association country band of the year seven out of the last ten years.

5068             And I found, coming to Regina ‑‑ I guess I'm one of the odd ones.  I moved here in 1992 from Manitoba, and Regina's just been nothing but good to me.  I guess I wear two hats.  Not only did we really have a successful, and continue to have a successful music, career as The Poverty Plainsmen, I've managed to buy The Pump Roadhouse in 1997.  We've managed to build a new brew pub and eatery and liquor store on the northwest end of Regina.  We just currently bought a brand new nightclub called The Drink Nightclub on Dewdney Avenue.  We're just sort of getting started at that one and we're going to be building a new casual fine dining steakhouse in Regina here as well on the northwest end.

5069             And although I have a great relationship with CKRM and the Harvard Group ‑‑ I've spent lots of money with those guys, and also with Rawlco as well.  And I just find that there's been a big void, however, in this city for FM country.  Ever since the late '90s when Country 92 went off the air and went to a lite format, I personally didn't like it.

5070             I find that if we're trying to promote a country show in this city, it's very difficult.  I've ‑‑ I find that Country 100 in Moose Jaw is a great radio station as well.  We do lots of work with them, but it's not a Regina flavour.  It's a Moose Jaw flavour.  And I think a city of 200,000 could use a good FM country station.  I feel strongly about that.

5071             The Standard Radio Group has brought a very good plan to the table.  I think they're going to be giving lots back to the community, you know, especially any local talent.  They're going to be based here in Regina which is very, very important.  And from an artist's point of view, I think it's a plus, and also from an advertisory ‑‑ advertiser point of view, I think it's a big plus as well.  And I think that's about all I have to say.

5072             Thank you.

5073             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.  And we'll continue with Birdsong Communication.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

5074             MR. LIST:  Thank you very much, Madam Chair and Commissioners for this opportunity to support or to talk in support of the Standard Radio application.

5075             Just imagine my presentation with a steel guitar playing in the background because I think it will really add to this.  I know Bruce was supposed to do that, but Air Canada lost it or something.

5076             I wear many hats here today.  My name is Don List of course.  I'm the president of Birdsong Communications.  I'm an owner of the company that has celebrated its 28th anniversary just this last week.  I've been active in the community in Regina.  As a matter of fact I grew up about three blocks from here, so you might call me, you know, committed to this community.

5077             I have been involved in the cultural industries.  I am a motion picture producer.  I'm also very actively involved with Aboriginal youth theatre, Night‑Wind Theatre.  I am also an active member in ‑‑ or as a board member of the Conexus Art Centre.  I have been involved with motion picture development, policy development and I've seen this community grow.  I've seen it prosper.

5078             My presentation ‑‑ and I believe you have my intervention.  I would like to focus on three points, and the first one is I have to commend you on your comments about showing that the ‑‑ well, I've got an empty glass here, but I really do believe that the community ‑‑ the economy in Saskatchewan is growing.  It's vibrant, and thank you for talking about it showing that our glass is full.

5079             I've gone through the ups and downs of this community and I see a lot of young people in this community.  I'm a sessional lecturer at the university, First Nations University.  I was involved in the Indian Native Communications Program and I understand that Standard Broadcasting, the Canadian Talent Development Fund is focusing on that.

5080             Anyways, so when this opportunity came to speak for this, I see that, yes, Saskatchewan and particularly Regina could use another company, another broadcaster.  I believe that as a vibrant community, the economics that we have right now will support that.  I see it.  I love the opportunity of getting a new office, new people coming in here, possibly a few new Rider fans.  And I think that it's the attitude that we have to have, that I didn't move to Alberta.  A lot of people didn't.  And I think that when you have a chance of bringing in a new company ‑‑ I believe this would be Standard's first time in this province, so I have to look at that and say that's very, very positive.  So they would be a welcome addition to our community.

5081             One of the ‑‑ the second point I support wholeheartedly with this application is the Canadian Talent Development initiative.  I have a 12‑year history with a program development fund, the CTV Saskatchewan Program Development Fund, which I'm a board of trustee.  And you might be familiar with it at the CRTC.

5082             I have seen firsthand what money put into the hands of young writers, young technicians, film makers ‑‑ and now 12 years later, they aren't so young anymore, but they are working in the industry and those little bit of money, which grew over the years and what it has done.  I see an initiative like Standard Radio coming in with their commitment to the developing young people is wonderful, and I can only say I support it wholeheartedly.

5083             The third point which I'd like to talk about is the ‑‑ my particular interest in the initiative.  Again, it's maybe tying it back to the Canadian Talent Development with the First Nations University of Canada.  I was involved with the formation of INCA(ph) in '87, '88, '89 and I am now enjoying the fruits of the labour of seeing wonderful people, young people coming up through the ranks, Aboriginal ancestry, and they are working in the industry.

5084             The initiative to put in programming, bursaries and getting these people into the work field ‑‑ or workforce, again is quite commendable.  If you take note of my comment, I said although the ‑‑ I support the fund and I believe it might be small, but it grows.  I think yesterday I found out that in three weeks it did grow already.  Much to your chagrin, I believe.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

5085             MR. LIST:  But it's a great initiative.  And again, my history with the development fund and seeing what wonderful things it does, I just believe that, you know, an initiative like this will have ‑‑ should be supported.

5086             I'm willing and able to answer any questions based on this.  And if there's difficult questions, I'll just toss them over to Bruce.  Thank you very much for this opportunity.

5087             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you all, gentlemen.  Commissioner Cugini is first up to bat.

5088             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Good afternoon and welcome.  I just ‑‑ going to the type of music that is applied on an AM country station versus an FM country station, and I do admit I'm not as well versed in country music as you gentlemen are obviously.  But, Mr. Good, you said that your brand of country music is an outlaw brand and isn't typically played on AM.  First of all, what does that mean?

5089             And secondly, can you tell me in general terms what are the differences between a type of country music that's played on an AM station and that which is played on an FM station?

5090             MR. GOOD:  Certainly.  I can speak for myself when it comes to this of course.  Back in that day which was mid '70s through to the late '80s, it was really referred to as ‑‑ before new country, and it was really considered country and western, which was the old brand.  That was the type of music that was played on AM country stations.

5091             Our particular style of music was mixed with a little bit of rock and roll.  It was with the delivery, the instrumentation, for example, was different than the regular steel guitars that Don would like to hear.  It just had a different sound that was hard to ‑‑ as I used to say, it was as though we were between a rock and a country place.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

5092             MR. GOOD:  It was really hard to get placed, and that's where FM, to our benefit, came to our rescue, you might say.  And in particular in the Toronto area, it was Standard Broadcasting.  And I guess that's the only way I can define it at that time.

5093             Today, compared to what we played back in those days, our music was actually very tame.  Today it has taken on a brand new sound, a brand new look, and it's now termed as new country, which now is an old term anyway.

5094             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And what are the difficulties your son is facing?

5095             MR. GOOD:  Their type of music is so hard to define, so hard to pigeon‑hole.  They play ‑‑ they've played regularly and charted on the college ‑‑ the campus radios across the land.  They're played on CBC.  They're played on FM radio ‑‑ not a lot, but they are.

5096             It's really their ‑‑ at this point in their careers, in their early careers it's the only play they receive at this time.  And their music can be defined as ‑‑ it has been called alternative country, and it's a type of music that is being more and more accepted, I believe, first of all in my opinion, on FM radio before it ever enters into the AM stream.

5097             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.  Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

5098             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And the second batter is Commissioner Pennefather.

5099             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

5100             You were here a moment with the previous intervener, I think, Mr. List, in the room.  And my colleague, Commissioner Cugini, actually asked about what you say in your point 2, the ‑‑ adding to the healthy, competitive environment.  Can you comment a little more on that ‑‑ your point about the importance of a healthy, competitive environment to artists' music in this community and what you meant by that comment?

5101             MR. LIST:  Here I get myself into trouble.  As I say, I was ‑‑ I'm in small business.  May father was in small business.  My grandfather was in small business, and together I ‑‑ you know, that's almost 60 years.

5102             I started out here as a young pup, a graduate of the University of Regina.  And film, no ‑‑ everyone said there's no chance, no possibility that you could, you know, make a go of it in the film industry here.  Had I listened to some of those people in those communities in the broadcasting industry ‑‑ and I'm talking motion picture and TV ‑‑ they ‑‑ the best advice was go to Los Angeles or to Toronto.  We did that.  All of us kind of did our stints, but the attitude seemed to be that there wasn't a big enough pie.

5103             And, you know, right now you look at Regina, and if ‑‑ we don't say that anymore, but we have a sound stage.  We have a very, very vibrant Corner Gas station.

5104             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Please don't exaggerate about the health of that industry, please, Mr. List.

5105             MR. LIST:  Okay.

5106             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm afraid my colleagues might think that we're doing very well here in Saskatchewan.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

5107             UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  We'll explain later.

5108             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  It's a Saskatchewan thing I'm starting to find.

5109             MR. LIST:  Your home town is coming to ‑‑ but, no, I'd said that there's room.  I mean ‑‑ and again, this is very personal because, I mean, at one point people said, "Well, the pie is too small", and I think that we've proven it in our cultural industry and I see the talent that comes through.  And we can't sustain, you know, jobs for all the people that are coming through our schools, the university, the theatre department ‑‑ an excellent program.  So they will move on, and that's something that we are quite proud of in Saskatchewan is being a great people exporter.  And I ‑‑ I'm proud of that, but I want to make sure that it stays here too.

5110             So I think it's the competitive, positive attitude has to say, yeah, I'm willing to compete.  I'm willing to take on that challenge, and I think that's what I meant by the healthy environment because I do see that there is a lot of things happening here, very positively.  My company is growing.  We have a full staff, you know, and we just celebrated 28 years so ‑‑

5111             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I understand.  Thank you.  Thank you, Madam Chair.  And just to ‑‑ so you know, Madam Chair is a very strong defender of monies and support to Saskatchewan art and Saskatchewan film and television and all the rest of it so ‑‑

5112             MR. LIST:  And we thank ‑‑

5113             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  ‑‑ so when the chart went up about Saskatchewan as special, we know.

5114             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And ‑‑

5115             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  We've been told.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

5116             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And unfortunately I can't ‑‑ have very little to complain about these days, so I don't want to make a big deal about it.  Vice‑Chair Arpin...?

5117             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

5118             Which type of country format will you qualify the Moose Jaw radio station?  Is it new country or is it ‑‑

5119             MR. SMITH:  I would say it's more new country.

5120             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  It's more new country?

5121             MR. SMITH:  Yeah.

5122             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  We heard earlier today that they were delivering a crystal clear ‑‑ that's where ‑‑ the words that were used, "Crystal clear signal over Regina".  Do you have any ‑‑ so both of you are reside ‑‑ are residents of Regina.  Do you have any comment on that quality of that crystal clear signal?

5123             MR. LIST:  Well, I do occasionally listen to Moose Jaw, the country station there, and that's where I got the first ‑‑ heard the first term.  I didn't know what it was.  I thought it was an advertising thing because, you know, I ‑‑ it does ‑‑ it sounds good.  I know ‑‑ like, technically is that ‑‑ if that's a question, yeah, it's ‑‑ you know, I mean I would not expect anything but a good sounding signal, if that's the ‑‑

5124             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Well, the reason I'm asking the question ‑‑ well, it seems to me that Moose Jaw is about 50 miles from Regina; would you say that ‑‑ or 50 kilometres?

5125             MR. LIST:  Oh, yeah.  Yeah, it's 40 minutes ‑‑

5126             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Forty minutes ‑‑

5127             MR. LIST:  ‑‑ from Regina.

5128             COMMISSIONER ARPIN: ‑‑ 40 minutes' drive so ‑‑

5129             MR. LIST:  With your radar detector on ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

5130             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  With radar, okay.

5131             MR. LIST:  Yeah, I'm not sure where that's coming from.  Sorry, sir, I ‑‑ do you know?

5132             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Well, it means that if you have a crystal clear signal from Moose Jaw, then the country format is already available in Regina in some sort.

5133             MR. SMITH:  I think that is correct.  There's ‑‑ there is a country format here, but like I said earlier, it's not of a Regina flavour.  It's more of a Moose Jaw and southern Saskatchewan flavour.  And they do say that on the radio station all the time, and I know whenever ‑‑ myself, when you want to do business with that radio station, they're 50 kilometres or 60 kilometres ‑‑

5134             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yeah, sure.

5135             MR. SMITH:  ‑‑ out of the city, so it makes it hard.

5136             MR. GOOD:  If I may?  I'm not from the area, but to add to that, it would seem to me that not being from Regina ‑‑ and now I'm getting off the music a little bit, but it would mean that any events, any local events, or any news ‑‑ or whatever the case may be ‑‑ I don't think they have traffic in Moose Jaw but ‑‑

5137             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Do they have traffic in Regina?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

5138             MR. GOOD:  But it just would seem to me that ‑‑

5139             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Particularly from a guy coming from Toronto.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

5140             MR. GOOD:  It just seems to me it's a matter of what is really ours, and I think this is a ‑‑ this would be a station that Regina could proud ‑‑ proudly call theirs because it is.  It would be about Regina.  It wouldn't be about Moose Jaw.

5141             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

5142             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, gentlemen, very much.  Thank you.  Mr. List, is there anything you don't do?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

5143             MR. LIST:  I'll leave my resume here but ‑‑

5144             MR. GOOD:  He doesn't play steel guitar.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

‑‑‑ Pause

5145             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

5146             Before we proceed to the next panel of support interveners, I'd just like to indicate for the record that one of the support interveners for Touch Canada had indicated on his intervention the Saskatoon application number, when in fact it was for Regina.  So I will be calling the intervener for ‑‑ with the next panel.

5147             Therefore, if the following five supporting interveners for Touch would come forward?  Jennifer Jade Kerr, Zbitnew and Associates, Lighthouse To All Nations, Shelan Schnell and the Regina Evangelical Ministerial Association.

‑‑‑ Pause

5148             THE SECRETARY:  We will start with Ms Jennifer Jade Kerr.  You will have ten minutes for your presentation.  Please go ahead.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

5149             MS KERR:  Thank you.

5150             Good afternoon.  You'll have to forgive my nerves, but it's very odd being up here with ‑‑ in front of the microphone without my guitar.  Hopefully I won't have to break into song to finish my presentation.

5151             Regardless, I feel very honoured to have the opportunity to speak to you about something that makes me very excited ‑‑ the possibility of a Christian radio station here in Regina.

5152             There are many reasons why I would love to see this station become reality.  I would like to connect these reasons to each of my three jobs.  Apparently a theme up here is multi‑tasking.

5153             My day job is as registrar of Western Christian College.  I work with the college students, helping them organize their academic programs, encouraging them, and being an advocate for their individual needs.

5154             Our students are very diverse.  First year students, to single moms, to fully employed adults looking to continue their education.  Many of them are leading very challenging lives, and are in constant need of positivity and encouragement.  Any direction from which that comes is much appreciated.

5155             My students are very excited about the Touch Broadcasting application.  They keep asking how it is going and say how great it would be if this station were to come through.

5156             Many of our dorm students from out of town miss the Christian stations available in their home towns and would love to have one here.  Western Christian also has a high school with over 100 grade 9 to 12 students from many walks of life.  A dream of mine is to watch a lunch hour sports game some day, hearing Regina's Christian radio station blaring through the sound system and knowing that we are being consistent with the messages of positivity, self‑respect, love and respect for others that we are teaching the students in their classrooms.

5157             President Kevin Vance of Western Christian College & High School agrees with me.  "It would be a blessing to our students and staff to have a Christian music station in this city."

5158             In addition to being a college and high school, Western Christian has on its campus the second largest theatre seating auditorium in Regina.  Early this fall, and last fall as well, we hosted the Great Canadian ‑‑ excuse me, the Great White North Supertour, a Christian music tour billing some of today's most popular Canadian Christian artists like Amanda Faulk, Nifty, Thousand Foot Krutch, Manafest, Gaetz Avenue, Stereotrap ‑‑ woohoo, Saskatchewan boys ‑‑ and many more.  This event has sold nearly to capacity both years, with around one ‑‑ with ‑‑ excuse me, with around 1,000 youth and young adults packing our 1,013‑seat auditorium to see their favourite bands.

5159             This is a group of people that is energetically passionate about their music.  And I do mean this truly, the auditorium floor moves when these kids start jumping.  And there's not a station in this city devoted to their kind of music.  They find their favourite artists through MySpace and iTunes, not through Regina radio.

5160             Most of them, like me, because of this non‑radio music interaction receive little, if any, local news or talk content on a daily basis and are often too busy or too blase to stop and intentionally watch news or local programming.  If that is not a wide‑open target just waiting to be addressed, I'm not sure what it.

5161             I am also a youth worker in this city at my church.  I work with the 12 to 18 age demographic and I love introducing them to music that I enjoy and trust.  I am a self‑proclaimed music junky and I know a lot of my kids are too, and I am very concerned with the damaging messages they pick up from the music they listen to every day.

5162             I try to teach them respect for themselves and others, and they listen to music that degrades women and glorifies drug use and violence.  I try to teach them physical modesty, and they are bombarded by images of barely clothed women flaunting their sexuality.  I try to teach them about being accountable and trustworthy in relationships, and they're listening to songs about the joys of promiscuity and how to lie and get away with it.

5163             I'm 25 years old, and I don't approve of those messages going into my head, let alone the heads of my kids.  I would love for them to have instant access to music that speaks of peace, joy, solid values, confidence, relationships of integrity, and how awesome it is to be loved just the way they are.

5164             That's what a Christian format radio station in Regina would be; instant access to the positive messages that I desire from my youth and others like them to hear, understand and live out.

5165             As a youth worker in this city, I participate in a group called the Regina Youth Pastors Ministerial.  The group, representing over 25 churches of various denominations, meets once a month to discuss issues that are youth are facing, joint program initiatives, and also just to encourage each other in our work.

5166             The Regina youth pastors are excited about the possibility of this station in Regina.  As people that spend their professional lives working with youth and caring deeply about their total wellbeing, it is very exciting and encouraging to have their support behind this initiative.

5167             My third job; one of the greatest joys of my life is my music.  I have been writing songs for 13 years and performing steadily for the last 6.  The artistic community of Regina has provided me with many opportunities and mentors along my musical journey.  I have performed at Casino Regina, the Craven Country Jamboree, The Pump Roadhouse, on CBC Radio One, Telemiracle, and various other events and venues, in addition to touring nationally with a four‑piece group called Saltwater.

5168             I am a member of both SaskMusic, formerly the Saskatchewan Recording Industry Association, and the Saskatchewan Country Music Association where I fall within the gospel, adult and songwriter categories.  I have been self‑marketing a demo CD called Foretaste, which I recorded in 2003 and am currently recording a full‑length project entitled, "Life In General".  It includes the best and most requested material I have written over the last seven years covering topics such as being single, a phone conversation with a best friend, my faith, feeling loved, feeling unloved, and even my favourite old pair of shoes.  It's my mom's favourite.

5169             Whether a song I write is explicitly about my faith or not, I write from the perspective of someone learning how to live a moral and confident life in a world that does not encourage that.

5170             When someone compliments me on a song I've written and says "That is so much like what I'm going through and your words encourage me to keep going", that is a really great gift.  The give and take between artists and audience is a very powerful thing and I'm only beginning to understand its implications.

5171             I have performed at a lot of different venues and events and feel most in the zone as an artist when I am able to be honest and true to who I am, presenting the difficulties and joys that life can include when you are attempting to live with that level of personal transparency.

5172             A good friend told me once that you should always be HOT; honest, open, and transparent.  And that has become a great guideline for me as a songwriter and performer.

5173             A Christian radio station would give me the exposure within a community I love and want to serve and encourage and would also allow me to express myself honestly as an artist.  It would open doors to additional performances, increase record sales, and just the excitement that comes from moving my artistic career to another level.  Also because of my broad writing and performing style and the topics they tend to cover, radio airplay on anything other than a Christian format station is admittedly going to be sparse.

5174             The Regina music community has given me so much, and I want to give back in the best way possible and I would love for the exposure for my new CD to start right here.  And in order for me and other local artists to get consistent airplay in Regina and still be who we are, we need this station.

5175             I need to add one extra category to this presentation which is related to my interests as an artist but also speaks to my interest in music as a whole.  As I said before, I'm a music junky.  I listen to and love many genres of music.  One thing I love about the Christian music format is that it is so broad, just like my own musical tastes.

5176             Within my own Christian music collection I have hard rock, pop, hip hop, punk, independent singer/songwriters, country, emo, worship, novelty/comedy, and kids' music, much of it Canadian as well.  That is what a Touch Broadcasting station can offer Regina that no one else can ‑‑ variety.  And not just within the market, but within the station's programming itself.

5177             Contemporary Christian music is fuelled by such a wealth of influences that coming out ‑‑ that the music coming out is incredibly diverse.  That's what I want to hear on the radio and so do many of my friends and peers.

5178             Right now, although I listen to music through most of my waking hours, I rarely listen to Regina radio.  A rotation of Christian CDs live in my car so that I can enjoy my favourite artists to and from work, and as I run around town with my youth.

5179             At work I turn into ‑‑ I tune into a Christian radio station over the Internet because there is nothing on Regina airways that holds my interest.  There is no Regina station that I would call my station.

5180             If this application by Touch Broadcasting is accepted, Shine FM Regina would instantly be my station ‑‑ as a youth worker, as a young adult mentor, as an artist and as a music listener.  And I know I'm not alone in that feeling.

5181             Again, I want to thank you for granting me the honour of presenting to you today.  As you can tell from the number of letters sent in support of the Touch Broadcasting application, there are a lot of people who are passionately in support of this application and for many compelling reasons.  We would love to have a station that we can call our own.

5182             Thank you.

5183             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

5184             We'll proceed with Zbitnew and Associates.  Have I pronounced it correctly?  If you could introduce yourself before your presentation?

5185             Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

5186             MS ZBITNEW:  Good afternoon, Madam Chair, CRTC Commissioners and staff.  My name is Wallis Zbitnew.  You said that very well.  I always tell people, remember I'm a bit new.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

5187             MS ZBITNEW:  I'm a business woman in Regina in the area of real estate investments and I'm also past president of the Regina South Rotary Club.  Other hats I wear are those of journalist, educator, certified self‑talk trainer, and motivational speaker.

5188             My interest in the realization of a Christian radio station in Regina connects with my educational and business interests as well as my dedication to rotary, which includes community service.

5189             The importance of ethics and honesty in the business world is at the top of my list.  I avoid ‑‑ personally I avoid dealing with a person or a company if I find out they are lying about a product or a service or if they are not up front with their costs and quality of service they provide.

5190             Recently on the national news information about the prevalence of everyday lying was a shocking revelation to me.  What messages are being programmed into the brains of people to make them think that lying is an acceptable form of communication?  We need help.

5191             One step in the right direction would be providing an alternative radio station which speaking truth and fact to people of all ages.  Certainly our mayor, His Worship Pat Fiacco, who is recently re‑elected to his third term in office by receiving 81 ‑‑ 84.1 percent of the vote is popular because we, the citizens of Regina, appreciate ‑‑ among other things ‑‑ his positive I Love Regina campaign, which is successful and ongoing.

5192             Similarly positive effects from an alternative Christian radio station would enhance the spirit of our mayor's I Love Regina campaign.  Broadcasting positive music and messages through the airwaves by establishing a Christian radio station in Regina will work together for good for the morale of the citizens and community pride.

5193             As a thought doctor, I know the impact of both negative and positive sights, sounds, words and music on our minds.  As a mother of three and a grandmother of two, I know the influence of the media on the minds and lives of my children.  It is the responsibility of the community to provide alternatives for our people so they can make the right choices for successful living.

5194             Christian radio has not been available for them as a choice.  Now is the time to go forward with a Christian radio station in Regina.  When I visit my children in Vancouver, their car radio is set at Praise FM which comes out of Bellingham.  My son, his wife and two children enjoy the music on Christian radio daily as they drive.  They claim it promotes peace and harmony in their family.

5195             People are complex beings.  In order to function fully and live a balanced life, we need to nurture every aspect of who we are, including the following capacities:  Intellectual, emotional, physical, psychological and spiritual.  Life tends to be out of balance when we neglect nurturing one or more of those five areas.  Radio in Regina provides a good assortment of golden oldies, rock and country and western music, however it lacks balance.

5196             Current radio music does not satisfy the spiritual nourishment my soul desires.  Other Christians agree, and several ‑‑ specifically Nina Braelean and Iris Williams ‑‑ took on the task of bringing in big named ‑‑ a big name Christian singer, Michael W. Smith, to the Conexus Art Centre.  As well, Canadian gospel singers who have performed in Regina include Janelle, Steve Bell, Brian Doerkson, Mike Mallot, and Rory Allen.  Regina residents enjoy bi‑annual inter‑denominational city‑wide praise musical events at the Simpson Auditorium, which is second in size only to the Conexus Art Centre.

5197             During my 30 years in Regina, there has never been such a proactive wave of bringing in gospel music as there is now.  These client events are powerful indicators that Regina has an audience desiring uplifting Christian music that promotes the fruit of the Spirit which is love, joy, peace, long‑suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith and meekness.  The need is clear; Regina is ripe for a gospel radio station.

5198             I would now like to share a few words regarding my involvement with Rotary.  Rotary International is a service club with approximately 1.2 million members in more than 200 countries and geographical areas.  As past president of the Regina South Rotary Club, I am familiar with implementing rotary's four‑way test in my business and personal life.

5199             It consists of 28 powerful and effective words which are:  Of the things we think, say or do, number 1, is it the truth?  Number 2, is it fair to all concerned?  Number 3, will it build goodwill and better friendships?  Number 4, will it be beneficial to all concerned?  The implementation of something as simple but profound as a four‑way test contributes to the integrity Rotary has enjoyed for a hundred years.  Worldwide projects in education, health, literacy and the environment are carried out in truth, honesty and accountability because the values inherent in the four‑way test are adhered to by Rotarians.

5200             Similarly, a Christian radio station in Regina would serve, like the four‑way test, in promoting values and moral standards amongst all ages in our community.  The radio station would be a beacon, a lighthouse pointing the community away from dangerous rocks towards harmony and peace and respect among all men, women and children.

5201             The question is asked, can Regina financially fund and support a new gospel radio station?  The large and broad Christian community in Regina has already found means and ways to fund several Christian schools.  When it comes to upholding values, people inevitably find a way to come up with funding.  If it's beneficial to ourselves, to our children, to our survival, we will always afford it.  In other words, operating a Christian radio station which would give us exactly what we want, like Rotary's four‑way test, would be accomplished even through sacrificial giving.

5202             Currently we were not hearing the values and standards we cherish on regular radio stations, and we're willing to pay the utmost to achieve the highest standard for ourselves and future generations.

5203             The audience is here in Regina.  We need Christian radio programming to assist in achieving the balance every human being requires to live a happy life.  Now is the time for the needs and wishes of the Christian community to be met.  We will gladly handle the finances.  The product is worth the cost.  Values, morals and standards in our community cannot be measured in dollars and cents.  Changed lives are worth the cost.

5204             Thank you for considering our request.  The impact of Christian radio will go on into eternity.

5205             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

5206             We will now proceed with the Lighthouse To All Nations intervention.  If you could, again, introduce yourself before speaking?

5207             Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

5208             MR. OGUNRINDE:  Good afternoon, Madam Chairman, Commissioners and CRTC staff.  I'm here as a parent, an educator and a pastor.  I'm a parent of three mature ladies ages 21, 19 and 17 and, as an educator, upwards of seven years in the teaching career at the University of Regina, I helped train minds.

5209             But now as a spiritual leader, a pastor of a multi‑racial and multi‑ethnic congregation, my responsibility is to help mold, guard and guide the moral conscience of our society, also to help educate and promote values that make for a safe and healthy society.

5210             As an immigrant, I have been truly amazed and grateful for a blessed country such as ours.  And one of the factors that make Canada to be voted twice by the United Nations as the best country to live in, is the economic growth and opportunities that abound.  While this is an indisputable fact, somehow the foundation of our society has been compromised in the pursuit of these opportunities.

5211             Moral and family values that we once held so dearly are being eroded and mortgaged.  We have pursued economic opportunities to the detriment of a wellbeing ‑‑ of the wellbeing of the family.

5212             Our society has become a stressful one.  We have become a workaholic society.  We have become intoxicated with success in order to ‑‑ and in order to maintain our insatiable appetite for luxury and opulence ‑‑ we have become intoxicated with success in order to maintain our insatiable appetite for luxury and opulence.  Consequently we have made room ‑‑ we have made no room for a healthy family lifestyle.  The cultural gangs, youth and young offenders, arson, substance and drug abuse, prostitution are becoming rampant.  Kids as old as 9 to 12 year‑olds are increasingly committing acts that greatly alarm us.

5213             At the heart of this is neglect.  I'm concerned about the legacy that we're going to pass on to the next generation that comes behind us.  From personal experience, I understand a nation is as strong as its foundation.  The family is the foundation of our society.  I also believe that the thought in the mind of a man is mostly the function of his action.  In other words, our thoughts determine or governs the rule and conduct of our lives.

5214             Music does not only entertain, it educates and has a message that is able to influence one's action.  Much of what young people listen to today have messages that are often subliminal, promoting drugs, violence, suicide, vigilante justice, self‑destruction, bodily harm and rape.  This kind of music offers no hope.

5215             As an pastor, I've often been on the receiving end.  While young people are being destroyed, I have been left to pick up the broken pieces, devastated lives, and deal with the trauma from the misguided actions instigated by messages of the music.  In some situations I have had to deal with grief counselling of families that have been affected through the death of young people, with the often difficult task of conducting funerals of our young people.  I have been very distressed and helpless as I see young talents and potentials wasted and destroyed.

5216             When the music that young people listen to promotes all kinds of crime listed above, it can no longer be tolerated as entertainment but crime against humanity.

5217             And in our fast ‑‑ and in our fast‑paced society where there's little or no supervision of what young people are listening to, it is important to promote a safe alternative music that promotes moral values, respect for humanity and authority, and a love for our communities and, above all, a respect and reference for God.

5218             This is why I'm in support of the application for Touch Canada Broadcasting Incorporated that will provide contemporary gospel music.  This kind of music is fast gaining popularity among young people, including my own children and their friends, and the young in our congregation and our fast‑growing immigrant communities.

5219             The contemporary gospel music is being produced in many styles by a multitude of artists and musicians on many successful market labels in Canada and the United States and is available in all fine music stores everywhere.

5220             Around the city you can hear this great music piped into the floor spaces of the Shoppers Drug Mart and Wal‑Mart and in other public and private spaces.  Contemporary gospel music is becoming of interest to local and visiting bands in great numbers at various concert venues.  The only place contemporary gospel music is not available is in Regina.

5221             My reason for being here today is on behalf of our local airwaves.  I believe it is time for all our community, for our kids, and the young and old to be able to tune in on their radio dial to popular gospel music.  We have all the other popular music formats to listen to on local radios, but we are still missing this one.

5222             As a spiritual leader in these troubled times and working in a city neighbourhood having so many troubled youth, I think it's appropriate and long overdue to have a community FM radio station with a positive message for all.

5223             On no less than about three or four occasions I have been in a crisis intervention where I have been to the police station and also I've been to court trying to wrestle young kids out of the hand of the government to say that we can actually give them hope.  And in most cases, it has been a situation of arson and destruction of properties and all because of some of the influences that they get because of what they listen to.

5224             My experience has been that communities that offer FM contemporary gospel music, are listening to it and playing it all the time, one can be assured and secure that the message being aired any time of the day or night does not require parental concerns for monitoring.  This kind of music educates and offer hope.

5225             I'm aware that other provinces and media centres in Canada have this type of music radio available and I believe it's time for Regina and our province to have it too.

5226             Madam Chairperson and Board, I ask that you give strong consideration to my concluding remarks.  It's time to repair the foundation of our society through a wholesome message of contemporary gospel music.  It's time for wholesome family oriented community minded radio in our city.  It's time to give hope.  It's time to grant an alternative.

5227             Thank you very much.

5228             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

5229             I would ask Miss Shelan Schnell ‑‑ have I pronounced this correctly?

5230             Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

5231             MS SCHNELL:  Yeah, my name is a tongue‑twister.  My name is Shelan Schnell and thank you for your time and allowing me to speak today.  I am here to speak on behalf of teachers who are doing their best to teach children who will positively affect the work and those around them with enthusiasm and courage in a world that sometimes is uncertain and dangerous.

5232             There's much opportunity in our country right now for our children, but there's also a great deal of breakdown in families and communities which are seriously impacting the safety and support of our children each day.  As a classroom teacher of grade 1 and 2 students, I see each day how at risk our re children are.

5233             The culture of gangs, suicide, murder, drugs, prostitution and crime is more common among young people these days.  Violence is so familiar to our students, and the media is a huge influence on our children and is impacting them in many ways.  Music has a lot to do with our society.  It is a part of everyone's lives, especially our youth.  And what a lot of youth are listening to does nothing to stop destructive thoughts and actions but even sometimes encourages them.

5234             In schools we are trying to teach students respect for others and themselves, kindness, empathy, tolerance, caring, peace and self‑worth, but it is difficult when so much in media goes against that, including music.

5235             I just have a couple of examples of what students are listening to, and a popular artist right now is Fergie.  And one of her songs, London Bridges, says, "All my girls get down on the floor back to back, drop it down real low.  I'm such a lady but I'm dancing like a ho 'cause you know I don't give a F, so here we go."

5236             And another popular artist is Beck, and he says in his music, "I want to defy the logic of all sex laws.  Let the handcuffs slip off your wrists.  I'll let you be my chaperon at the halfway home."  And then one of his songs ‑‑ the title of his songs is "Fing With My Head".

5237             And these are only two examples, but the influence of what is heard in media can also be heard with my students as young as grade 1 and 2.  Just yesterday one of my grade 2 boys said to one of the grade 2 girls, "You're hot."  And a couple of years ago a grade 1 boy said to another girl, "I want to have sex with you."  And a grade 2 boy said to another teacher, "You have a nice A‑S‑S."  And we had to suspend one of my grade 2 boys a couple of years ago for trying to hump girls on the playground.

5238             I supervise in the lunch room each day, and the students asked if they could bring music in to listen to during lunch.  Now, these are grade 1 and 2 students, so I didn't think they would bring anything that would be inappropriate to play in a Catholic school.  But as we had the music on, all of a sudden a song came on with the F word, and I had to turn it off and I had to start previewing any CDs that came and that they brought in.

5239             Right now there's music out there that is becoming more and more popular each day, and many people are tapping into this positive message of the contemporary Christian music.  And as a young adult, I have stopped listening to radio and buying CDs that do not have a positive message which promote my values and morals.

5240             I'm lucky to have Max Digital on my TV where I can listen to a contemporary Christian channel at home.  Most of my friends are now listening to the contemporary Christian music also.  We find the messages are important in our lives, they're life‑giving, and they're worthwhile to listen to.  And I would love to have access to that music 24/7, whether in my car, at school, or in my radio.

5241             And I believe is it time for everyone in our community, especially our youth, to be able to tune in to popular contemporary Christian music on the radio.  I think it is important to hear music and to be exposed to a message that says to them that they're valued and loved.  And I believe Regina would highly benefit by having a Christian music radio station available and I know many others like me would tune into it throughout the day and even at school.

5242             Many teachers, I know, play music in their classrooms and even have the radio playing while students are working on projects.  And this would be a great station for them to play during the day and not have to worry about the content, whether its announcers are using curses or crude language or even disrespectful words or music.

5243             And I know I've had to turn off the radio sometimes in the morning, when I've had students come in early to help me, because of the content.  And I know many other provinces and cities throughout Canada have this type of music radio available, and it's time for Regina and our province to have it.  And I feel Touch Canada Broadcasting has done a tremendous service by spearheading this application and I'm excited that it's happening here in our city.

5244             Thank you all very much for letting me appear before the Commission today.

5245             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

5246             I would now ask the Regina Evangelical and Ministerial Association, if you could also introduce yourself?

5247             Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

5248             MR. BERGEN:  Good afternoon.

5249             I represent ‑‑ my name is Clay Bergen, and I represent the Regina Evangelical Ministerial Association.  Thank you for taking the time to hear my comments in favour of the application of Touch Canada for Regina and not Saskatoon, but I could be there for Saskatoon, I guess, but ‑‑ being born and raised in Winnipeg, it was never my dream to live in Regina.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

5250             MR. BERGEN:  After living in the United States for ten years, it was a delight to move back to Canada, but it was Regina in 1985.  This has been my home for the past 21 years.  It has been a great place to raise my family.  However, there's always been something missing here and ‑‑ which has been a radio station that plays the music that I enjoy and has the values that are important me.  This FM gospel music station would fill that void.

5251             I travel across our country and when I get close to Calgary, I can hardly wait to find Shine FM and to listen to that in Calgary and then in Edmonton.

5252             Explosion of the Internet has filled some of that void by allowing me to listen to stations that play Christian gospel music.  However, that's limited to my computer and/or paying for a satellite radio station.  I believe that we should have this format of gospel Christian music available to the Regina public at no cost.  I'm also tired of having a US brand of religious programming from those Internet stations.

5253             As a chairman of the Regina Ministerial Association, I represent over 10,000 individuals in Regina that would listen to such a format on the radio.  This association represents 52 churches, 43 organizations in Regina that would benefit by having this format for a radio station.  It would give us the ability to address issues that affect us here.

5254             As a CEO of one of those non‑profit organizations, it would allow me the avenue to present my message to my city.  As a former minister in Regina, I see the advantage of having a local station that allows the Canadian message of what I believe and what is happening here in our city.

5255             This is not a bandwagon that I have just jumped on.  For the past four years I have been involved in the community FM radio station, 91.3 CJTR as a member and a host for a Sunday morning talk show called New Times.  This weekly show has allowed us to share what is happening around our city and community.

5256             New Song is another radio show that highlights the music for local artists, that I have been involved with in the station.  Our shows have also helped to raise the funds for this community‑owned station.  However, it's been our goal to see the style of radio expanded to a 24‑hour, seven‑day‑a‑week format as we have established a positive track record in broadcasting.  We have also been involved in training DJs, broadcast hosts, and running a sound board for these programs.

5257             But finally, these are all good reasons to approve the application for Touch Canada Broadcasting, but the bottom line for me is this:  If there were people in a burning building and I had the ability to go in and save them, it would be imperative upon me to go and save them.  I have that opportunity now.

5258             We have a lot of hurting people in our city that need help.  They need a message of hope, peace and love.  That is what this station is all about.  Touch Canada Broadcasting has a proven track record.  Now we have the chance to offer that message of hope through the gospel music to Regina.  Please give us that opportunity.

5259             Thank you for your consideration.

5260             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑Chair Arpin...?

5261             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

5262             Throughout this proceeding, I think the main question that arose was, could the market support another radio station.  I know that you're not advertisers.  You're two pastors, musicians, teachers and ‑‑ but do you think that the market ‑‑ because obviously Touch will have to make some money in order to sustain the level of production that they want to do in this market.  And do you think there is a market for a gospel music radio station in Regina?

5263             MR. BERGEN:  Well, I'll speak to that.  This morning, the place ‑‑ the office that I rent is a Christian owner.  And I went past his office and I saw him there and I said, "I'm making this presentation today."  And I said, "If you were given the opportunity to advertise your business" ‑‑ he's a realtor in our city ‑‑ "through a gospel Christian music station, would you do it?"  And he totally agreed that he would do that.  And I believe there are resources.  There are Christian businesses here in town that would support this radio station and the values that this radio station stands for, that they do not support in other radio media.  And so I believe there is an opportunity for that commercial buy ‑‑ that would need to be here.

5264             MS SCHNELL:  I just ‑‑ also I know in my church that we have a bulletin that goes out in the back.  There's ‑‑ people can advertise their businesses, and I know there's 25 businesses that are being advertised in the church bulletin.  That's just one church in the city out of many.

5265             MS ZBITNEW:  I did address that question in my presentation and, as I said, if there's something that's a burning issue that you and I, whether we're Christians or not, we'll find a way.  If there's something ‑‑ let's say that we're dying of cancer and there's a drug that we can buy that's going to cure us and it costs $100,000, do you think we'd be able to come up with that $100,000?  I'm saying yes, we can.

5266             Christians are people who, by and large, are used to tithing.  And on top of their tithing, they do ‑‑ they have sacrificial giving.  And if it's something that I really want for the good of my family, myself, my children, my community, I will forego some of the other things in my life.

5267             And I believe I'm speaking on behalf of many Christians in Regina.  We will forego maybe going to a movie or whatever it is, in order to have what is very important in promoting values and ethics and honesty and this kind of music for our community.  I believe the funding is already in place.

5268             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you very much.  Thank you.

5269             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, gentlemen and ladies.  I believe we will take a 15‑minute break.  That means, by my watch, it is ten after four and so it will be 25 after four.

5270             Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1610 / Suspension à 1610

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1630 / Reprise à 1050 1630

5271             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.  Madam Secretary...?

5272             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

5273             I would now like to call, as a panel, the following two interveners, Circle of Aboriginal Community Voices and Mills Productions.  If they are present, if they could come forward for their presentation of their intervention?

‑‑‑ Pause

5274             THE SECRETARY:  And I gather they are not present.  Therefore, we will hear the last appearing intervener for the Regina applications, Harvard Broadcasting Inc.  If you would come forward for your presentation please?

‑‑‑ Pause

5275             THE SECRETARY:  Again, for the record, if you could just simply introduce yourself?  And you will have ten minutes for your presentation.

5276             Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

5277             MR. COWIE:  Thank you very much.

5278             And before we begin, Madam Chair, for the record, we apologize for missing our earlier appointment today.  We were ‑‑ got a little mixed up in our efforts.  In any event, thank you for allowing us to appear after all, after being tardy.

5279             Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, my name is Bruce Cowie, vice president of Harvard Broadcasting.  Seated on my right is Michael Olstrom, Harvard's station group manager.  And on my left is Debra McLaughlin of Strategic Inc.  Seated in the back row on my right is Tina Svedhal, vice president investments.  And Rob Malcolmson, our legal counsel.

5280             At the outset, let me thank you for granting us this opportunity to appear and present our intervention commenting on the applications for new radio stations here in Harvard's home market, Regina.  It is with great reluctance we appear in intervention, but we really have, in our choice, no choice.  As you will hear, market conditions in Regina simply do not warrant competitive entry at this time.

5281             Harvard owns and operates three radio stations in this city; a full‑service country AM and adult contemporary FM and a mainstream rock FM.  The city's other three radio stations are operated by Rawlco Radio.  The two stations operated by Golden West Broadcasting in nearby Moose Jaw also derives some revenue from Regina and garner audience share in the market.  The Golden West was recently granted a third licence in Moose Jaw and that station, when it launches, will further fragment Regina radio audiences.

5282             Suffice it to say, Regina with eight and soon to be nine stations available in the market is highly competitive, and the formats offered to the radio audiences are, in our view, sufficiently diverse.  We support the principle of increased competition and program diversity as evidenced by our recent applications in Moose Jaw, Calgary, Fort McMurray, Medicine Hat and Saskatoon.

5283             However, not all markets can support competitive entry at any given time.  Indeed recent Commission decisions is that new licences will be issued where, one, when PBIT levels of the incumbent operator are such that the market can accommodate new entry with minimal impact on the existing services or, two, in markets where PBIT levels are low but economic indicators nevertheless demonstrate that market growth will facilitate a new entry.

5284             Madam Chair, the ‑‑ neither of these factors are present in Regina at this time.  PBITs in Regina are well below levels at which the Commission has traditionally been prepared to grant new licences.  Current PBIT levels for all stations in the market are estimated to be less than 10 percent.

5285             While PBITs are a key indicator of marketability to accommodate new entries, we recognize that low PBITs are not necessarily determinative.  We understand that if growth prospects of a market are sufficiently positive, new licences are sometimes issued but, in Regina, all economic indicators suggest and the market is not growing.

5286             Michael...?

5287             MR. OLSTROM:  Regina is not a growing market.  GDP growth has been well below the Canadian average for two of the past four years.  Furthermore, the Conference Board of Canada projects that growth in this area will not come close to the Canadian average for the next four years.

5288             Similarly, the population growth expectation has also been significantly below the national average and is forecast to remain at only that of the national average going forward.  Retail sales have also been sporadic.  In two of the past four years, retail sales in Regina have been performing at one‑third of the Canadian average.

5289             Going forward, the projections are for marginally positive growth but at a rate that is only slightly better than inflation and certainly below the growth expected for the country.

5290             Financial Post Markets concurs with this negative forecast.  The Regina market is already 13 percent below the national average and while some growth is forecast through 2010, growth in Regina will only amount to a paltry 2.5 percent per year for the next four years once the catch‑up is factored out.

5291             Contract this to a market like Medicine Hat with a population approximately one‑third of Regina, it is currently sitting at a retail sales per capita which is 58 percent above the Canadian average and the growth anticipated for the next four years is an increase of 34 percent.  As we discussed earlier this week, that is an example of an economically healthy market.

5292             One of the factors underpinning this unsteady performance is lack of diversity in the economic base.  The Conference Board of Canada assigns ratings to markets based on the breadth and range of industries that support the local economy.  A score of one represents maximum diversity.  Anything below one is an indication of the degree to which shifts in any one industry sector ‑‑ or industrial sector will impact the overall performance of the market.  Regina is rated at .81, a lower score than the majority of the rated markets.

5293             MR. COWIE:  So what we have here in Regina is a market with a low PBIT level and flat‑to‑negative growth across all economic indicators.  The fragile state of the Regina radio market is further demonstrated when key retail sales indicated are compared to neighbouring Moose Jaw.

5294             In Moose Jaw 2006 retail sales were fully 25 percent above the national average while Regina's retail sales were 13 percent below the Canadian average.  2006 retail sales per household in Moose Jaw were $35,600, while Regina was almost 30 percent lower at 25,600 per household.  Per capita retail sales in Regina were also 30 percent behind Moose Jaw.

5295             Earlier this year the Commission denied applications for new entrants in Moose Jaw but did grant a third licence to the incumbent broadcaster, Golden West, on the basis that a new competitor in Moose Jaw would have an undue negative ‑‑ a negative impact on existing stations.  In broadcasting decision 2006‑190 the Commission stated as follows:  "The Commission has analyzed the Moose Jaw radio market and based on low level of profitability of the only incumbent radio broadcaster in the market, the decline in over the last ten years and the modest projection for growth in the economy in the upcoming years, the Commission concludes that Moose Jaw is not able to absorb the introduction of a new broadcaster at this time without having an undue negative impact on the existing radio stations in the market."

5296             And Regina radio market exhibits those same conditions; low levels of profitability, stagnant population and modest growth projections.  Given the presence of these adverse conditions in Moose Jaw, the Commission decided just six months ago, that new competitive entry in that market was not justified.  In Harvard's view, the results should be the same here in Regina at this point in time.

5297             While Harvard supports competition and diversity and all radio markets are not created equally, the unfortunate reality is that Regina's radio market is not robust and the issuance of a new licence would, in our submission, have an undue negative impact on existing licences.

5298             For these reasons, we urge the Commission to approach licensing in Regina with a high degree of caution.  In our view, no new licence should be issued at this time.  In the interim, the market should continue to be monitored, and when relevant economic indicators warrant, Harvard would have no objection to the issuance of new competitive licences Regina.

5299             We thank you for this opportunity and would be pleased to answer any questions.

5300             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

5301             Vice‑Chair Arpin...?

5302             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I read your conclusion but, as you are aware, there are other type of less commercial, I will say, type of applicant like the Christian music/gospel music applicant.  There is two Aboriginal applicant as well.  Are ‑‑ when you're saying no new radio station for Regina, are you including these three in your recommendation?

5303             MR. COWIE:  All three of those would be exempt from our recommendation, so we would not object to those.

5304             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  You would not object to them.  The ‑‑ I did ask earlier, Rawlco, regarding staffing reduction in the market over the last four years, at least the data that the Commission has was covering two ‑‑ 2002 to 2005.  The 2006 numbers are not either in or compiled, but I was noticing that there was a reduction of people working in the radio sector in the market.

5305             I'm asking the question because I've heard and read that the ‑‑ somewhere that the incumbent have provide ‑‑ are ‑‑ have increased staffing in order to provide better quality programming, better service to the community.  Now, the data that the Commission has gathered over the last years is showing the contrary.  Do you have any comment on that?

5306             MR. COWIE:  Well, I would ask ‑‑ we did hear that discussion, and I would ask whether that was exclusively for the Regina market?

5307             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yeah, it's ‑‑ I'm ‑‑ I was working at the Regina market.

5308             MR. COWIE:  Okay.

5309             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I was not talking Saskatchewan.  Or is it strictly Regina?

5310             MR. COWIE:  Well, we have looked at that and we may be, at the moment, one lower than we were last year, but we have not had any kind of reduction like that over that period of time.

5311             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I understand that you're reporting somehow person‑years rather than the actual individual, so that may be the thing that makes the difference.

5312             MR. COWIE:  Well, we in this case counted bodies.

5313             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  You counted bodies?

5314             MR. COWIE:  Yes.

5315             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And if you are returning back to, say, four years ago in 2002, have you reduced staffing since the ‑‑ since that period?

5316             MR. COWIE:  No, we have not.

5317             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  You have not.  The ‑‑ I will also ask Mr. Paul Martin about government advertising expenditures, how significant advertising ‑‑ government advertising placement is for your group?

5318             MR. COWIE:  It ‑‑ it is significant and it is also fleeting.  That comes and goes.

5319             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yeah, that ‑‑ but ‑‑

5320             MR. COWIE:  But in the current context, and we're in a time leading up to a provincial election here, and I won't give you a number.  That would be revealing secrets, but I would tell you it is a significant amount of money to our radio station.

5321             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Because ‑‑ well, I'm asking the question because I know that it is, generally speaking, volatile.  It goes by cycle and ‑‑

5322             MR. COWIE:  Yes.

5323             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  ‑‑ and it ‑‑ so in terms of advertising category, what are the main category of advertisers that and ‑‑ that I could find here in Regina?

5324             MR. COWIE:  Retail advertisers?

5325             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes, by category; automotive, furniture ‑‑

5326             MR. COWIE:  Oh.

5327             COMMISSIONER ARPIN: ‑‑ sports or whatever.

5328             MR. COWIE:  Well, I'll have Michael refer to that.

5329             MR. OLSTROM:  You mentioned a couple off the top.  Automotive is a major advertiser with us, as are a number of the furniture dealers.  We also have restaurants and, as mentioned as well, government are significant advertisers as well.

5330             MR. COWIE:  In addition to that, because your AM station ‑‑ it operates in an agriculture based economy here, we do a high level of agri business.  That, too, is changeable with crop conditions and all of those things, but that has been a very important part of the business we do, and it ‑‑ it's ‑‑ and as you know, one of ‑‑ our AM radio station is still one of the top radio stations in the country in terms of audience and service.

5331             So it's ‑‑ as long as that retained ‑‑ is retained over time, it's of benefit to us, but it's ‑‑ we get a wide range.  We do a lot of work with some of the gentlemen you had here today on the music scene with some of the clubs, you know, particularly the pub and all of those.  We're very active in that scene and also on our FM radio stations, so it's a pretty wide ‑‑

5332             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Array of advertisers ‑‑

5333             MR. COWIE:  Yes.

5334             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  ‑‑ that you would ‑‑

5335             MR. COWIE:  Yes.

5336             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Well, I thank you for your presentation.  I think you're conclusions are clear, and that will surely ‑‑ the Commission will have to take them very seriously into consideration, so thank you very much.

5337             MR. COWIE:  Thank you.

5338             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

5339             I just have a few questions.  There's a tally on the presentation you gave today on page 5, you talked about retail sales indicators and where did that information come from?

5340             MR. COWIE:  I'm going to ask Debra McLaughlin to respond to that.

5341             MS McLAUGHLIN:  The now infamous Financial Post Markets.

5342             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The FP?

5343             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Yes.

5344             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  I am also then going to ask the same question I asked of Rawlco.  I'm aware that you had applications in, I'm going to say, from 2000 on in Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, Ottawa and then you hit the jackpot in Calgary.  And the expenses of those applications, if you could answer in confidence, whether they were borne by Harvard Developments or Harvard Broadcasting, and if you could provide us with those numbers in confidence within a week?  Does that sound fair?

5345             MR. COWIE:  We certainly will do that, and I'll ask Tina Svedhal to respond to the first part of your question.

5346             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, she ‑‑ you can do it in confidence.

5347             MR. COWIE:  All right.  We'll do it this way.

5348             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

5349             MR. COWIE:  Thank you.

5350             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Just because I certainly don't want to put you in, you know ‑‑ and in terms of the gearing up for Calgary, are you capitalizing the salaries ‑‑ again in confidence.  Don't touch your button, Michael.  Are you capitalizing your salaries or not, you know, as a capital expense?

5351             MR. COWIE:  I'll have Tina Svedhal respond to that.  My understanding is we are not.

5352             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Including all of the prelaunch expenses, are they being capitalized or are they just being part of the expenses?

5353             MS SVEDHAL:  Yes, Madam Chair, I'll respond in our confidential response in a week.

5354             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That sounds perfect.

5355             MS SVEDHAL:  Just to clarify, do you want it from 2000 forward or just the last two years?  You did mention 2000 earlier.

5356             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  Well, I would actually say '99 because the ‑‑ if I recall the first hearing you appeared at was in October 2000 in Calgary.

5357             MS SVEDHAL:  Sure.

‑‑‑ Undertaking / Engagement

5358             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you could?

5359             MS SVEDHAL:  Sounds good.  Thank you.

5360             MR. COWIE:  I was going to say a licence I thought we should have won by the way.  I'm just kidding.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

5361             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Persistent pays, Mr. Cowie.  Thank you.

5362             MR. COWIE:  Thank you very much.

‑‑‑ Pause

5363             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We're now proceeding to Phase IV.  Madam Secretary...?

5364             THE SECRETARY:  That's correct.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

5365             Before we proceed to Phase IV, I'd just like to indicate for the record that the applicant, Radio CJVR, has filed with the Commission the ‑‑ their commitments they had made earlier for the Regina applications, which is a breakdown of the estimated cost associated with their CTD initiatives, as well as an amended table of their proposed spoken‑word commitments.  This document will be placed on their application file for anyone who wishes to review them.

5366             As indicated, we are now proceeding to Phase IV in which applicants can reply to all interventions that were filed on their application.  Applicants will be asked to appear in reverse order if they wish.  And I would now ask Natotawin Broadcasting if they wish to intervene at this point?

‑‑‑  Pause

5367             THE SECRETARY:  I see they're not present.  Then we will go with AVR.

‑‑‑ Pause

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

5368             MR. BUCHANAN:  Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, AVR does wish to have a short dialogue with the Commission about the condition of licence relating to the two‑year period or the implementation of local.  Whether we do that today or tomorrow in the context of Saskatoon is indifferent to us.  I ‑‑ my understanding was the Commission would ‑‑ was prepared to do this tomorrow since it would presumably be the identical condition applied to both applications and we could have a fuller discussion then.

5369             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah, I think that's fine.  I just wanted the process to show that this point of this Regina hearing is still alive and we'll just transfer it into the Saskatoon hearing

5370             MR. BUCHANAN:  Understood.

5371             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, thank you very much.  Madam Secretary...?

5372             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

5373             I would now call of Radio CJVR Ltd., if they wish to come forward at this ‑‑ for this phase?

‑‑‑ Pause

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

5374             MR. SINGER:  Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Commissioners.  CJVR would like to thank the Commission for hearing our Regina applications in a fair and comprehensive manner.  We'd also like to thank the many interveners who wrote letters of support for our proposed two FM applications.

5375             Finally, I'd like to address those Regina and community organizations that wrote letters of concerns stating that increased competition will result in loss of support by the Rawlco Radio group.  I wish to assure each of them that given approval of one or two of our licences, we will be happy to provide significant promotional support to all community organizations.

5376             In our mind, more broadcasters means more community support.  We welcome the opportunity to promote and support the Regina community.

5377             Thank you.

5378             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Singer.

5379             THE SECRETARY:  Now, with that, I'll call on Touch Canada Broadcasting, if they wish to appear in Phase IV?

‑‑‑ Pause

5380             THE SECRETARY:  Please go ahead, Mr. Hunsperger.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

5381             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission.

5382             First of all, we want to thank all of our supporting interveners, both appearing and non‑appearing, with their letters and comments which we greatly appreciate.

5383             We've been advised by Commission counsel that you will permit us to clarify our position with respect to two issues; local programming and balance, which were points of contention during Phase I of our application.  We greatly appreciate and thank you for this opportunity.

5384             I will first ask Malcolm Hunt, our network program director to address local programming.

5385             MR. HUNT:  Our Regina station, if approved, will broadcast 98 hours of ‑‑ per week of local programming, as defined by the Commission's current regulations and policies.  These 98 hours are comprised of, one, 40 hours live to air made up of 3 hours of morning drive 6 to 9 a.m. and 5 hours of afternoon drive 1 to 6 p.m. Monday to Friday.

5386             Number 2, 52 hours per week of voice track programming produced at our existing facilities in Edmonton and at the Regina station.  This programming is specific to Regina and will only be aired in Regina.

5387             Six hours per week of locally, produced in Regina, prerecorded programming.  This time block is comprised of our top 20 music program aired Saturdays 9 to 11, and our praise and worship music program aired Sundays from 6 to 10 a.m.  With 98 hours per week of local programming, we will air more than double the minimum 42 hours required by the Commission's regulations in order to be able to solicit local advertising.

5388             I apologize for any misunderstanding I may have caused in Phase I with respect to this matter and I thank you for this clarification opportunity.

5389             MR. HUNSPERGER:  I will now address the issue of balance.  We do not believe that we are a religious broadcaster as defined in the Commission's religious broadcasting policy, public notice CRTC 1993‑78, rather we have always considered our operations as gospel music stations which broadcast a minimum amount of religious brokered spoken‑word programming for purely economic reasons.

5390             On page 7 of the public notice, CRTC 1993‑78, when defining what is ‑‑ a religious program is, the Commission states ‑‑ and I quote, "It will not include religious music programs in which the spoken‑word content is non‑religious."

5391             Since none of our spoken‑word content in our music programs, for example, DJ comment, human interest features is religious in nature, the vast majority of our program one clearly does not fall under the religious policy.  That leaves only the brokered spoken‑word programming, which does of course does have a religious connotation.

5392             With regards to this, I draw your attention to the list of stations we submitted in Phase I, which currently broadcast the same brokered programs that we proposed to carry in Regina.  The stations highlighted in black are deemed by the Commission to fall under the religious policy.

5393             As you can see, the majority of stations airing this type of programming do not fall under that policy.  They represent a variety of formats ranging from country to ethnic.  We are not for a moment suggesting that these stations are religious.  We believe, however, that we, as a gospel music broadcaster, should be regulated in the same manner as these stations.

5394             All of this being said, we take our responsibilities regarding balanced programming as mandated by the Broadcasting Act very seriously.  We have over 20 years of combined on‑air experience in our existing operations in Edmonton and Calgary.  The Commission has not received a single complaint regarding our programming during that time, and we're very proud of that record.

5395             In conclusion, we are prepared to accept the Commission's general condition of licence with respect to the religious policy, even though we don't consider ourselves a religious broadcaster, if you deem it appropriate.

5396             Further, if the Commission deems it appropriate, we would be willing to accept the condition of licence capping the amount of brokered spoken‑word programming at a maximum of 15 hours per week for the term of licence.  This would represent 11 percent of our 126‑hour broadcast week.

5397             We are not prepared to accept a COL regarding a specific amount of balanced programming as we feel that we would then be regulated in a different manner than most of the other stations that air the same brokered programming that we propose to broadcast, if granted a licence in Regina.

5398             Thank you.

5399             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Hunsperger.  Madam Secretary...?

5400             THE SECRETARY:  I would now call on Standard Radio, if they wish to come forward at this phase?

‑‑‑ Pause

5401             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Feeling somewhat schizophrenic, Mr. Buchanan, these days?

5402             MR. BUCHANAN:  ‑‑ tomorrow also.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

5403             MS TAYLOR:  Hello again.  By the way, I'd like to mention that I have received a number of e‑mails from my staff back in Winnipeg, all containing very interesting information on noticing heart attack symptoms and whatnot, so I appreciate their thoughtfulness.

5404             I appreciate the opportunity, as well, to appear again today.  I'd like to thank the appearing supporters that we had earlier in the day.  Some of them did travel a great distance on our behalf, and we're very grateful.

5405             My name's Sharon Taylor.  I'm representing Standard Radio with Mr. Grant Buchanan from McCarthy Tetrault, our legal counsel.  I just want to make a few brief comments, the first of which I'd like to comment briefly on economics.

5406             We believe that the economic indicators, that the Regina market is strong and growing, are there.  And although they seem to have been stated for you every which way but sideways, the article in today's paper was referenced earlier.  But since it's so fresh, I just want to take a moment, if you don't mind, and read some of the pertinent items from it into the public record.

5407             The section was titled, "Saskatchewan's Out‑performance Continues.  Resource rich Saskatchewan is on track to record a healthy 3.3 percent real GDP advance this year with even slightly faster growth in store for 2007.  This will provide the province a five‑year average growth rate of 3.4 percent, faster than any of the seven provinces to its east and more than a percentage point above the province's trend.

5408             Canada is the world's largest uranium producer, and it all comes from Saskatchewan.  In agriculture, provincial crop production could still run slightly below average levels in 2006, but poor harvest in other countries, i.e. Australia, lend support to prices and point to healthy future cash receipts.

5409             Labour income growth has been robust with competition from Alberta driving wages higher.  Brisk housing market activity has served as a foundation of support for consumer spending while a gradual moderation in housing activity from such elevated levels can be expected next year, the government's recent PST cut will stoke consumer spending."

5410             I believe that these are strong indicators, and there have been many others presented in the last two days.  I also find it difficult to imagine that this growth is happening everywhere in Saskatchewan but Regina.

5411             While it's clear that the current broadcasters are not keen on change in their market, I think the indicators are positive for change.

5412             I'd like to also comment briefly on format diversity.  There is no new country music radio station on FM in Regina.  While Country 100 in Moose Jaw can be heard in Regina, the Commission made note in their decision this past May in licensing a new FM station in Moose Jaw that the Moose Jaw market and the Regina market are two different markets.

5413             Locally CKRM, the AM country station, sees strength in their listeners 55 and older.  Our station will appeal to a much younger audience.  Forty‑five percent of our audience, according to our research, will be the return of Regina listeners who are currently listening to the Moose Jaw station.

5414             Now I would like to hopefully add some clarity to our Canadian Talent Development position.  In our application we promised a minimum of $100,000 in cash per year over the seven‑year term.  In our presentation we increased that amount to $150,000 in cash per year.  We were comfortable putting this increase on the record during our presentation yesterday.  This increase did not match or put our application ahead of other competing applicants in terms of CDT expenditures.

5415             In other words, although we uncovered certain needs that we wanted to fill, the playing field for Canadian Talent Development remains the same.

5416             The Saskatchewan Music Educators Association is frankly a group that we were just not aware of when we were filing our application and helping to provide instruments, education, music instruction and guidance to children in inner city schools in Regina is something that we're quite sorry that we didn't know about when we did file.

5417             We hope that this clarification will help put to rest Madam Chair's opinion that the CTD component was viewed as an auction.  Most sincerely if that were our intent, in true auction form we should have, and I imagine we would have, outbid our competitors.  In fact, this is something that has happened more or less on the fly, if you will, at other hearings when applicants have offered to increase commitments during the hearing process.

5418             This is a four‑phase competitive hearing, and other applicants, should they have felt aggrieved in any way, could have come forward in Phase II and complained.  This did not happen, which should speak volumes about the other applicants' concerns.

5419             The Commission clearly has the ability to allow these changes.  That said, should the Commission feel that the process in this case has been compromised, we guarantee that the commitments made in our original application will be honoured as submitted, pending your approval of course that they qualify.

5420             Should the Commission grant us this licence as amended, we do intend to follow through on the additional support that we outlined in our oral presentation.

5421             A quick comment regarding the discussion regarding Mr. Grierson's(ph) comments on national advertising.  His contention is the national advertising will not increase with another operator in the market and, instead, national advertising will just be spread out thinner among all the operators.  I believe that Mr. Grierson's rep house, CBS, presently represents 31 of the 34 radio stations in the province.  With that kind of strangle‑hold on representation, I believe that competition in this area would be beneficial to national advertisers.

5422             We also cannot imagine that when adding a new exclusive format to the market that national spending will not be, in some way, positively stimulated.

5423             Finally, we have prepared and would like to submit a breakdown of our news commitment.  In total, we are offering five hours and 46 minutes of news weekly, which is much more significant than our original total which did not include our commitments to weather, road conditions and our Sunday news magazine program.  And to be clear, this is not a change to our original application.  It was always there.

5424             Thank you very much, and I'm glad that I got through at this time so that you could understand me.

5425             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cugini...?

5426             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Ms Taylor, thank you.

5427             I, too, got an e‑mail from my assistant in Gatineau this afternoon recommending that I drown in a couple of hot toddies tonight.  So you're right, it's nice to know that people back home not only are listening to us, but care for our wellbeing.

5428             MS TAYLOR:  Very nice.

5429             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Because you did raise the issue of the CTD and, in your discussion with Commissioner Cram yesterday, she did make it clear that the Commission may decide to obligate you to the $700,000 level as originally submitted.

5430             I just wanted to be absolutely clear, and you did provide some clarity today that, as filed, that is how you would spend the $700,000.  So just to be clear, it means that Saskatchewan Music Educators Association, Radio Starmaker Fund, and the Canadian Country Music Association would not receive any CTD?

5431             MS TAYLOR:  Could you repeat those groups for me again ‑‑

5432             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Sure.

5433             MS TAYLOR:  ‑‑ please?

5434             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  What I have ‑‑ when we compare what was originally filed with what was said yesterday, the organizations that are new to the list ‑‑

5435             MS TAYLOR:  Yes.

5436             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  ‑‑ were the Saskatchewan Music Educators Association ‑‑

5437             MS TAYLOR:  Correct.

5438             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  ‑‑ the Radio Starmaker Fund ‑‑

5439             MS TAYLOR:  Correct.

5440             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  ‑‑ and the Canadian Country Music Association?

5441             MS TAYLOR:  That's correct.

5442             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So if the $700,000 were replies as filed, these three organizations would not receive CTD?

5443             MS TAYLOR:  That's correct.

5444             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And the other amounts as filed would stay?

5445             MS TAYLOR:  You bet.

‑‑‑ Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques

5446             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So ‑‑

5447             MS TAYLOR:  You were correct in all three items that you listed.  Those three groups, the Saskatchewan Music Educators Association, the Canadian Country Music Association, and Starmaker, were not in our original application.

5448             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And you would accept, as a condition of licence, the CTD expenditure as filed?

5449             MS TAYLOR:  Correct.

5450             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you very much.

5451             MS TAYLOR:  You're welcome.

5452             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Did you ‑‑ no.  Thank you very much.

5453             MS TAYLOR:  Thank you.

5454             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary...?

5455             THE SECRETARY:  We now call on Newcap, if they wish to appear in this phase?

‑‑‑ Pause

5456             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary?

5457             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

5458             Mr. Maheu, you can go ahead.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

5459             MR. MAHEU:  Thank you very much.

5460             Good afternoon, Madam Chair, members of the Commission, staff.  Newcap would just like to take a couple of moments here in Phase IV to address a number of points.

5461             First and foremost, we'd like to thank the letters of support received from the number of interveners who would like to see an oldies based classic hits radio station by Newcap come to Regina.  We appreciate the time and effort they took to send their letters and words of support on our behalf to the Commission, so on ‑‑ for the record, thank you for those folks.

5462             We'd like to take a very short period of time, maybe two, two and a half minutes and very quickly touch on some of the points raised in the Rawlco Radio intervention heard earlier this afternoon.  First of all, just to clarify a point that the ‑‑ was raised in that intervention and the question by the Commission of Mr. Goldstein's report and where Mr. Goldstein was asked to comment on the comparisons that we made in our opening remarks in our presentation for a new station in Regina, where we took markets like St. John, New Brunswick and Moncton, and so on, and basically gave the Commission information on the average number of stations on a per capita basis and so on.

5463             Just to clarify our intent on that, we did not see that as a steel sword piece of evidence to say that this market needs or deserves more radio.  It was more anecdotal, to give you a sense of markets of a similar size and the range and scope of service that's available in those markets.  And we also tried to choose markets that were similar in some ways to Regina where they were stand‑alone cities, not in the shadow of a major metropolitan area like a Hamilton or even a Kitchener or something like that, but municipalities that have stood on their own and had their own radio market unto themselves.  So if that created any confusion or concern, we apologize, but we really presented that as extra anecdotal information to help put things into the perspective.

5464             There was a comment raised in the intervention earlier from Rawlco about new radio stations, and I'm going to paraphrase because I don't know the transcript but ‑‑ about how a new station coming to the market could possibly upset the status quo as it relates to public service groups in Regina getting their support from the incumbent broadcasters.

5465             There was a mention made that community and business leaders were concerned about their advertising messages being deluded, that they would lose their easy access to interviews and advertising opportunities on the incumbent radio stations, particularity the Rawlco stations and that ‑‑ I believe it was mentioned that it would complicate their radio buying.  Newcap does not believe that to be true at all.

5466             I don't really know what these folks were told, if anything, but that does not seem to be based in fact at all.  It's our opinion that more radio in a community offers more avenues for service and more access, not less.  And also it's been our experience in other markets where we operate where new applicants have received licences and, all of a sudden, we're on the other end and we're facing new emerging competition in markets, that a couple of things happen.

5467             Number one, we get a lot better very quickly at what we do because competition always makes everybody keener and sharper and more eager to please, and it's not that we weren't doing a good job before, as the incumbent broadcasters are here, but when new competition arrives, everybody moves their game up a level.  At least that's been our experience.

5468             And secondarily, we found that our level of service to the community, public service groups, not‑for‑profit groups and charities also increased because there were more radio stations in the market, looking to generate goodwill and build themselves a business.  So just as a word to the business and community leaders in Regina, that we believe the exact opposite will be true in Regina where more radio service will mean more access and more opportunity for some of these not‑for‑profit groups.

5469             And there are probably some out there that don't get their fair share of awareness because there's just not enough time in a day on six radio stations in a market to make everybody happy, and extra radio will give some of those folks an opportunity to be heard.

5470             Mr. Pringle on the Rawlco panel made some observations about the music that Newcap was proposing for the market place, which is an oldies based classic hit station, and I think Mr. Pringle said something to the effect that the major music genres in the Regina market are covered with stations playing the country, pop and rock.  And while I will agree with him to some point that the six stations in the marketplace do play some of the songs that we are proposing to play, no one radio station in the market even comes close to playing a meaningful or substantive amount of the kinds of music that we're proposing as a format, and I just wanted to get that on the record.  You could cherry‑pick, playlist on stations and hear songs from time to time and go, well, that's an oldie, but it's not an oldies based classic hits radio station.

5471             Mr. Pringle also mentioned that the oldies formatting ‑‑ I think his quote was, "Stations in Canada are bailing on the oldies format."  And there's some truth to that in Canada, but it's for a different reason than you might think.  Stations are leaving the oldies format in Canada largely because they have been relegated to the AM band because of current regulations for the CRTC.  And we all know where music on the AM is going.  Now, and into the future, it's becoming less and less of a viable prospect for a radio station playing music.

5472             Although there are certainly some success stories, and we have one of them in Camrose with CFCW playing country, but it's certainly targeted at a 45‑plus audience.  But oldies is still a very viable format for adults aged 45 to 64.  And to have it as part of an oldies based classic hits format on the FM band, we're very confident that there will be a great market for that radio station, and the research certainly indicates that.

5473             And then finally, very briefly, Mr. Rawlinson was speaking as part of his intervention that even though the economic indicators for Regina look favourable for the future ‑‑ and I'm paraphrasing again, not quoting ‑‑ but he's heard this before.  They've heard ‑‑ we've heard these things in the past about Regina, and sometimes they didn't quite turn out that way, or to be true.

5474             And all we would have to say to respond to that is that even if it is true and it may well be true, during those periods of time the incumbent broadcasters have continued to do business in this marketplace and they made a profit, even if that profit is somewhat below the Canadian average, there's all sorts of reasons how those numbers come to be what they are, but they are in business and having some success.

5475             The Saskatchewan Government is certainly bullish on the economy and the future of this province, and I'm sure Regina and Saskatoon in particular because they're the major centres.  I noticed watching a hockey game a couple of weeks ago, the Saskatchewan Government advertising that we should all consider relocating and opening up a business in Saskatchewan because the future is bright.

5476             I've seen the newspaper ads in national newspapers as well and I would sum up only by saying that we would like to take the province up on their invitation to open a business in Saskatchewan and we would like to do it as soon as possible.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

5477             MR. MAHEU:  Thank you very much.

5478             If you have any questions, I'd be happen to answer them.

5479             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Maheu.  Madam Chair ‑‑ Madam Secretary...?

5480             THE SECRETARY:  I get another promotion.  Thank you, but I won't take your job.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

5481             THE SECRETARY:  Before we close the proceedings for the Regina applications, I'd just like to indicate for the record that AVR has filed with the panel the AVR program descriptors had ‑‑ they had undertook to do.  They will be placed on ‑‑ this will be placed on their application file.

5482             This completes the considerations of items 10 to 16 of the agenda, Madam Chair, and we're ready to proceed with the Saskatoon market if you wish.

5483             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm happy to announce that volume 3 is now finished, of the evidence, and we're moving north two and a half hours.  So Mr. Maheu, do you want a few ‑‑ ten minutes to set up, and then we can go to Saskatoon?

5484             Thank you.

5485             THE SECRETARY:  Madam Chair, if I could ask your indulgence?

5486             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

5487             THE SECRETARY:  I was just provided with the Standard Radio spoken‑word commitments that they had promised they would give, so that will also be placed on their application file.  Thank you.

5488             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1725 / Suspension à 1725

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1735 / Reprise à 1735

5489             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.  Madam Secretary...?

5490             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

5491             We are now at the review of the Saskatoon market applications and we will now proceed with item 17 on the agenda, which is an application by Newcap Inc. for a license to operate an English language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Saskatoon.

5492             The new station would operate on frequency 91.5 megahertz, channel 218C1, and with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts, non‑directional antenna, antenna height of 179.1 metres.  Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Rob Steele who will introduce his colleagues, and you will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.

5493             Mr. Steele...?

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

5494             MR. STEELE:  Thank you very much.

5495             Well, good afternoon, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, Commission staff.  I'm Rob Steele, president and CEO of Newcap, and before we begin our presentation, I'll just re‑introduce our team very briefly this time.  To my ‑‑ starting at my right is David Murray, Glenda Spenrath, Mark Maheu, Sue Stevenson and Brad Boechler.

5496             And before we begin our presentation, I would like to put on the record a technical change that we were required to make to our application by Industry Canada.  On October 23rd we had sent a letter to the Secretary General indicating that Industry Canada had requested a change in our channel from 218C1 to 218C, and this represents no change to our coverage or our business plan.

5497             I would like to ask Mark Maheu now to present our proposal for a new classic hit station in Saskatoon.

5498             MR. MAHEU:  In preparing our application for Saskatoon, Newcap conducted a strategic research study of the marketplace.  We surveyed residents aged 18 to 64 about their musical taste and preference to determine what opportunities might exist for a new radio station in Saskatoon.

5499             Newcap tested nine different formats by describing the musical sound and then playing a short montage of that music to each respondent.  The music formats most in demand were classic hits being the most popular, followed by classic rock, and then by '60s and '70s oldies.

5500             We then examined only those musical styles that had a strong positive interest from the respondents.  The same three formats emerged as the most in demand.  '60s and '70s oldies leads the way at 18 percent, classic hits at 15 percent, and classic rock at 11 percent.  According to the listeners surveyed, the choice for Saskatoon is clear; '60s and '70s oldies mixed with a pop based classic hits.

5501             In Saskatoon, the oldies based and classic hits formats have strong positive interest from listeners aged 35 to 64 and has a gender split and appeal of 55 percent female and 45 percent male.  The format we proposed will be comprised 45 percent with music from the '60s and '70s, the pop oldies from groups like the Mama's and the Papa's, The Beach Boys, The Supremes, and The Guess Who.  Fifty‑five percent of the music will come from the pop based classic hits genre from the '80s, '90s and now, from artists like Phil Collins, Tom Cochrane, Elton John and Matt Mays.

5502             The essence of this type of format is up tempo, fun and strongly rooted in the great pop hits the target listener grew up with over the past 40 years.  The station will also program a number of music based features designed to entertain and engage listeners.  We will air A Year in Your Ear, a review of the music from a certain or particular year and the events and trends that characterized that year.

5503             Sundays from noon until six, it's Psychedelic Sunday with the best of classic rock and classic hits from the psychedelic era, mid '60s through the mid '70s.  And weekdays at noon it's The Original Album Alphabet from Astral Weeks to Zooropa.  The classic album A to Z each day will go through the alphabet at least ten letters per day.

5504             Oldies based classic hits music is the foundation of our new radio station proposal, but to make our offering complete, we have also proposed an extensive schedule of news and information programming to address the needs and wants of listeners as they tune in throughout the day.

5505             MS STEVENSON:  As we pointed out yesterday, radio's biggest advantage is to be resolutely local and live.  For this format, it is even more important.  The baby boomer audience that we will primarily serve depends significantly on radio for information.

5506             So once again, we decided to increase our news commitment to 5 hours and 45 minutes of which 75 percent would be local, complemented by engaging compelling information, along with community and local entertainment features.

5507             In addition to 81 newscasts per week, our news room of four full‑time and one part‑time journalist will bring context to the news with 35 behind‑the‑news one‑minute public affair segments.  And three other features, our listener poll, Live Tonight, and Inside Saskatoon.  Our programming staff will develop a number of other features to reach out and involve our listeners, including our community event updates and Your Town.

5508             For our adult audience, the news will contain more than just the day's events.  It will also provide investment news for those interested in mutual funds, RRSPs, and the market, health news and tips for the baby boomer population and lifestyle news for an active community.  As well, the announcers will be encouraged to go beyond talk about music, weather or traffic, to engage the audience with elements of interest to them.

5509             At Newcap Radio, our corporate philosophy is to give back to each community.  We accomplish this in various ways, from Christmas drives for food in Ottawa, our Children's Trust Fund, our VOCM Cares effort in St. John's, or our hugely successful Cures for Kids radiothon and Golf a Kid to Cure.  In Saskatoon we will work with local city leaders and charitable organizations to determine the greatest unfilled needs.  We will then mobilize our efforts to assist them.

5510             Saskatoon has a number of names including the Bridge City and the Science City, but it also likes to be known as the Festival City.  Each summer the city holds many festivals including the SaskTel Jazz Festival, Shakespeare on the Saskatchewan, the Vesna Ukranian celebration and a Saskatoon Fringe Festival.  We will promote those cultural events in advance.  In addition, we will be on scene with our mobile studio to provide reports and interviews and to help create the buzz that goes along with these festivals.  We know that the existing stations in the market already do a great job in this area, but we think another hand can only help.

5511             And now to speak to the economic outlook that makes us confident we can sustain this service, here's Brad Boechler.

5512             MR. BOECHLER:  Thanks, Sue.  Madam Chair, we made the case for a positive economic outlook for Saskatchewan.  And if you thought I was optimistic yesterday, I'm even more encouraged about what's going on north on Highway 11.

5513             While the population's ‑‑ while the province's population was declining in the late 1990s, the bright spot was Saskatoon.  FP Markets indicates that the city grew 2.5 percent between 2001 and 2006 and projects a further growth of 2004 by 2011.  With a population of 237,000 people, Saskatoon has 35,000 more people than Regina.  Put another way, Saskatoon is the size of Regina and Moose Jaw combined.

5514             In 2006 total income in Saskatoon will be 11 percent higher than Regina, and FP Markets projects that it will increase a further 9 percent from 2006 to 2008, and by a total of 22 percent by 2011.

5515             Retail sales is also an area where Saskatoon outpaces Regina to some extent.  In 2006 retail sales will exceed in Regina by 13 percent, the $2.4 billion in retail sales in 2006 are projected to increase by 9 percent by 2008 and by 24 percent by 2011.  And this will have a direct impact on radio revenues.

5516             While Saskatoon has a larger population, higher incomes and greater retail sales, it has the same number of commercial radio stations as Regina.  And while we don't have the access to the Commission's financial returns for the market, we conclude that radio revenues and profits will reflect the reality.

5517             We are also convinced that the citizens of Saskatoon are even more underserved than those in Regina.  And if you recall, and it appears that more than a few people in the room do, I gave you few examples of other markets when we presented our application for Regina.  There are almost 40,000 people per radio situation in Saskatoon compared to the lower numbers in the other markets we cited yesterday, including Regina with one station for 34,000.

5518             We believe that Saskatoon residents have the right for a greater range of radio choice and editorial diversity to the extent that a market can support it, and this one can definitely support more radio.

5519             MR. MAHEU:  When you are running a radio station focused on older music, you have to look at the Canadian Talent Development activities a little differently than you would on a current based music radio station.  So while on news stations like our alternative rock station in Ottawa or our newly licensed Triple A station in Calgary, we can invest in trying to break new bands, and that is not the nature of our audience or our format that we're proposing for Saskatoon.

5520             Instead, we believe that our best contribution can be one to the grassroots, the new learners in music and those continuing to learn, as well as a national organization that helps take emerging acts to the next level.

5521             So we're proposing to devote $215,000 each year, or just a million and a half dollars over the course of the first licence term, to the development of Canadian talent.  $90,000 each year will go to the Radio Starmaker Fund, and we have asked them to direct that money to Saskatoon artists on an as‑possible basis.

5522             SaskMusic will receive $85,000 each year from Newcap for two streams of their programs; for emerging artists and for new artists.  The emerging artist stream will be directed toward educational programs on how to break into foreign markets, including funding to attend international music trade fairs.  The new artist stream will include an education strand as well for live performance development and for public relations.

5523             Madam Chair, you have heard us say this before, but we believe it, that it bears repeating again.  In an environment characterized by an increasing competition for listening time, with increasingly narrow music niches being available on the Internet and from satellite, not to mention today's technologies like 95 radio stations, or whatever, being available on your cell phone, local radio needs to break some new ground in some new markets.

5524             Our best chance to fill the most popular sounds that people want to hear is with local radio, compelling radio with high quality stereo sound and local content that only a local radio station can deliver.  More stations providing greater choices to listeners means a stronger, sustainable future for local radio.

5525             Earlier Brad Boechler spoke of the prosperity in Saskatoon.  The clearest witness of that prosperity is the number of applications that your call for that market has attracted.  The existing broadcasters in Saskatoon do a great job.  Their letters of support attest to that.  We are not here to ask for a licence because they're not doing a good job, not at all.  We are asking to be allowed to compete with them with a format that is currently not available in the market, that will expand listening choice, provide a new editorial voice to Saskatoon and grow radio's overall share of the advertising pie.  We believe that we have provided an excellent application for Saskatoon.  A strong business plan ‑‑

5526             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I hate to ask you to stay again, Mr. Maheu.  The ‑‑ we have problems again.

5527             MR. MAHEU:  Technical difficulties.  Please stand by?

‑‑‑ Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques

5528             MR. MAHEU:  Is that okay, Madam Chair, to ‑‑

5529             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, thank you.  Please ‑‑

5530             MR. MAHEU:  No problem.

5531             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Please go ahead.

5532             MR. MAHEU:  We believe that Newcap has provided an excellent application for Saskatoon.  We have a strong business plan based on a comprehensive research study canvassing multiple formats in the marketplace.  We provide a strong local programming proposal with more than adequate program spending to meet our proposal's needs.  We've made a significant contribution to the development of Canadian talent, $1.5 million over the course of the first seven years of licence.

5533             I'd like to thank you for our time and attention.  We'd be pleased to answer any questions you might have about our proposal.

5534             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

5535             Commissioner Pennefather...?

5536             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  The journey continues.  Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.  We'll discuss your application beginning with programming and moving on through the talent development and economic analysis, and perhaps end up with a discussion similar to the one we had regarding the Regina market.  And while there are similar questions, we are in a new market.  We have moved along to Saskatoon, so I'd appreciate wherever possible that any general comments that are economic, et cetera, we add some precision as far as Saskatoon is concerned.

5537             Looking at the programming, the first area, I'd like to just touch base on ‑‑ we've talked about this before, is the indicated programming.  And just to clarify on the August 14th deficiency, you mentioned ‑‑ I think it's a similar issue we raised before in the other application.  You've indicated nearly a hundred percent of your programming will be locally produced with the exception of some syndicated.  So could you clarify which parts of your feature programming might be syndicated, how many hours of programming would this syndication represent, do you envision any other syndicated programming, and will it be produced nationally or internationally?

5538             MR. MAHEU:  Thank you.

5539             Our approach right now for our proposal in Saskatoon for the radio station is to use a minimum amount of syndicating programming.  As it stands right now, we'd like to leave it on the table as an option to run some, but on a going‑forward basis to give you a sense of how local and how much originating programming is going to happen on the radio station, you know, our best estimate would be 98 percent of what we do on the radio station would be locally produced or live programming in Saskatoon.

5540             The only time that we would consider running some syndicated programming ‑‑ and we wouldn't be able to tell you with great specificity at this point whether it be international or domestically produced syndicated programming ‑‑ is there are some syndicated program in ‑‑ programs available that touch on the oldies genre and the classic hits genre.  They're more rockumentaries or documentary type of programs, instalment programs that could be aired on the radio station over a number of weeks.

5541             And if we did run those programs, I would say it would be less than two hours a week of syndicated programming.  We've also proposed that the radio station not implement any voice tracking between 6 a.m. and midnight on a Monday‑through‑Sunday basis, that we are live or live to air with people in the studio.

5542             And the only time we would not have somebody on the radio, quote on quote, behind a microphone is when we are running some station produced programming.  Psychedelic Sunday, for instance, could be a program that would be possibly hosted by a morning team or an afternoon or a music department person that would not be there doing the show life per se, but it would be produced in station, aired on the station on the weekend, and there would be somebody in the studio running that program and available to do surveillance information and service on the air on a live basis.

5543             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.

5544             That helps amplify what you have in response to question 3 wherein you did say, we'll be nearly a hundred percent, include one or two hours per week, but it helps to understand that you're not talking about a hundred percent period.

5545             Moving on to news, information and within the spoken‑word programming, we have your attachment again ‑‑ and thank you for that ‑‑ laying out the scheduled news and the non‑news.  A similar question that I asked, I think yesterday, was the increase from your original application in terms of the numbers of news packages which would have been produced by two journalist announcers and one news director.  Considering the increase, would this result in an increase in staff and numbers of journalists you propose to hire?  And if so, would the financial statement be revised?

5546             MR. MAHEU:  The financial statement and our proposal for program spend and our business plan would remain as it is.  We believe that we have an adequate number of people in those news positions to accomplish what we've proposed, even with the increase up to 5 hours and 45 minutes of news and information per week, and then a total of 20 hours of spoken word, so there would be no change to our business plan.

5547             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  We discussed previously your approach which is the same, the structure is the same; scheduled news and then non‑news.  And your strategy, I believe, is the same to increase the news component as a result of the current context for radio ‑‑ in the radio environment, and we discussed why you didn't increase the non‑news section as such.  Let me ask a slightly different question, looking ahead ‑‑ and we'll discuss this in more detail ‑‑ we have a different median age here and a different demographic.  Why the same approach?

5548             MR. MAHEU:  The demographic for this radio station is very similar to another proposal you've heard recently.  What's different about this one, and we found it quite interesting that Saskatoon, in terms of its music tastes and the type of people that would listen to this format, is somewhat different than what we've found in other markets.  And there's no easy way to explain it other than the average age in Saskatoon generally is slightly younger than other markets in Saskatchewan, including Regina.

5549             But what's interesting about this one is that there seems to be equal appeal for this format across the three demographic groups of 35‑44, 45‑54 and 55 to 64.  The other difference this as well, although the median age changes on this one from 48 to 49, it ‑‑ the interesting thing about it is that the skew is a little bit different.  This one is more female skewed than male.  The other proposal that we had talked about was more male skewed, and I think that is basically a function of the marketplace and what music and what formats are available in the market.  It's slightly different or perceived to be slightly different by listeners in Saskatoon, and that's why we believe that the appeal of this format is a little more female skewed in terms of what impact that has on the news ‑‑

5550             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yes ‑‑

5551             MR. MAHEU:  ‑‑ and information to ‑‑

5552             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  ‑‑ that was my question.

5553             MR. MAHEU:  Sorry, it's a long proceed to get to the question you asked ‑‑ is people who enjoy this kind of music are of a certain age predominantly, and the real heart and soul of the format, although it appeals 35 to 64, the real heart and soul appeal of the radio station is in that 45 to 59 age group, so it's very similar to the other proposal.

5554             And although it's skewed slightly more to women than to men would ‑‑ the only thing that would change in the way we would approach the news ‑‑ we would still take the same approach in the news and information that we have in other proposals, but given the fact that the target is slightly more female skewed than the male will have an impact on the topicality that we employ on the radio station as some of the things we talk about, and it would also probably manifest itself ‑‑ and I'm going to ask Sue to touch on this briefly, too.  It would manifest itself likely in some of the feature programming that we do and some of the things that we cover and the topics that we cover to make sure that we are delivering on the needs and wants of a female based target audience on the radio station.

5555             But it is ‑‑ it's still pretty close to 50/50, so if we were to be operating this radio station in Saskatoon with this target group and operating another one with the exact same format in another market, the news and information and the spoken word on the radio stations, the amount is the same, but the topics and the issues that we would focus on or do more of will be based on the targeting of the radio station.

5556             MS STEVENSON:  All right, as Mark mentioned, we would skew the topics on the radio station somewhat.  That's not to say we wouldn't touch on a number of similar topics, money matters, but perhaps health and lifestyle issues might get a more prominent role because we're skewed more female.  You know, there's a bit of a different dynamic, and our programming would have to reflect that.

5557             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That's understood.  It was just the pattern is exactly the same, so I just wanted to fill in the blanks a little bit to understand why you felt it would work in a similar manner.

5558             The staff of journalists, will they be responsible, as well, as for the scheduled news for the non‑news component?

5559             MS STEVENSON:  As we have talked about before, they would be responsible of course for all the newscasts, and there are a number of programs they would be responsible for; the listener line, the public affairs program, and Live Tonight.  The community events and the Your Town features chores would probably fall more into the programming side of things.

5560             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And when it comes to the listener poll and how it will be integrated into your programming, could you describe that to us?  And who would be responsible for that?

5561             MS STEVENSON:  That would come under the news room.

5562             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  The news.

5563             MS STEVENSON:  Definitely news.  It's something that you have to be careful with to make sure that nothing untoward gets on the air, so that would definitely have to be something the news room takes responsibility for.  The announcers could help to promote the event and build it up and talk about it, but ultimately it would be the news room who would be responsible for what gets on the air.

5564             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.

5565             Let's go to the format again.  And let me put it this way, in the supplementary brief on page 7, we started out with this as a broad based classics format operating a variety of music from classic hits to more of an oldies offering music from the '60s and '70s.  And in fact in your supplementary brief you divided the decades; the '60s at 20 percent, the '70s at 20 percent, the '80s at 50, and the '90s to present at 10.

5566             I think what we have ‑‑ what you presented today is called olders based and classic hits and I sense a shift in that breakdown.  And can you explain that and can you explain why you shifted?

5567             Basically, I think, looking very quickly at your speaking notes, you have '60s and 70s at 45 percent, '80s and '90s at 55.  There's been a slight adjustment in the break ‑‑ the way the decades will be distributed so ‑‑ and I think the word oldies and classic hits was different from broad based.

5568             MR. MAHEU:  Sure.  I'd like to address the name of it first.  In terms of broad base classic hits, that was the ‑‑ that's what we called it as a format monicker or a name in the supplementary brief.  In our opening remarks we called it oldies based classic hits, just ‑‑ we thought it would help clarify or give a better understanding of what ‑‑ really what the radio station would sound like and what it would be comprised of, so it's really a label more than anything else.  And broad based classics or oldies based classic hits are just industry terms that basically describe the same thing.

5569             Going to your question on the percentages of music and what genre they're coming from or what era they're coming from, since we filed our research for Saskatoon ‑‑ and we filed it some time ago ‑‑ we've had the opportunity in a number of our markets, but especially in Charlottetown, to have real hands‑on, real world experience with this format that we did not have when we put this supplementary brief together.

5570             It's always one thing to see research on a piece of paper and a format idea.  It's quite another to implement it on a radio station and hear it come to life and see what happens to it.

5571             Very briefly, in Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, we operated ‑‑ and still do ‑‑ CHTN Radio.  We applied for a conversion from AM to FM.  CHTN was one of those last of its kind oldies radio stations on the AM band, playing predominantly music from the '60s and '70s.  It was just a great straight‑ahead oldie station because it could be.

5572             The Commission gave us permission to convert it to FM, which was good news in one way, that we were going to be able to compete with other radio stations, but the bad news was we'd have to alter the format because we couldn't do the pure oldies format on the FM band.  So what we did there is ‑‑ you know, we had done our research in Saskatoon and we saw at least ‑‑ I'm not saying Saskatoon to Charlottetown are the same by any stretch, but we thought, well, I think we can supplement the oldies format with the great pop classic hits from the '80s and the '90s.  And we've done that in Charlottetown and, you know, the result is a radio station called Ocean FM or Ocean 100 in Charlottetown, and it is programming right now about 45 percent from the '60s and '70s and about 55 percent from the '80s and '90s.  We stream it on line.  You can check it out yourself.  It's a great sounding radio station and it's working.

5573             The response that we've had to this radio station from local islanders is unbelievable.  It's an overwhelming response, better than we anticipated because we thought folks who just loved oldies were going to be mad that we weren't just playing '60s and '70s music anymore, and we were going to have to explain to them why we couldn't.  But it's worked out quite well.  The radio station sounds good and it ‑‑ and the response is excellent.

5574             And so given that experience and seeing it work in a real world, real life example in a market of 70,000 people gave us pause to, you know, kind of rename the format oldies based classic hits and focus our Saskatoon proposition a little more in that way.

5575             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  It may ‑‑ yes, I can see why you see it working as a formula, but if you look at what's currently in this market ‑‑ let's look at it from that point of view, why you thought it would work.  Considering what's here currently, it would appear not only to cover some of the same decades but also skew females.  So why what you are offering would be different and offer diversity?

5576             MR. MAHEU:  Well, it's certainly a format that is not being done as a pure format in the Saskatoon marketplace as there are in other markets.  There are radio stations that play bits and pieces of format genre.  You're going to find radio stations in the AC format or hot AC that do play some classic hits material.  You'll find radio stations in the softer AC formats that also play some classic hits material or oldies material.  You'll find classic rock stations that do play some oldies material and some classic hits, but that's not what they specialize in.  It's not what they're famous for, and it's not the number one reason people tune those radio stations in.

5577             How we're different from every other incumbent radio station in Saskatoon is we're ‑‑ we would be the only radio station that would be focused purely on the oldies from the '60s and '70s and classic hits combined.  And that combination, through the research that we've done, seems to be the most popular choice that Saskatoon listeners are saying they would like to have in the marketplace, would listen to most and could become their very favourite radio station.

5578             And when we're looking at an 18 percent or format void for oldies from the '60s and '70s, in radio terms in a market the size of Saskatoon, an 18 percent hole is a big hole.  When we do research in markets, when we see an opportunity that big, it's ‑‑ we call it a slam dunk.  It's ‑‑ that hole is there, and they are ready for this radio station, and it could do very well.

5579             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So it brings me to, again, this ‑‑ the median age 49 years according to your list here, which explains the move towards the oldies side of the equation, and that's the connection there ‑‑

5580             MR. MAHEU:  It really is.

5581             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  ‑‑ as opposed to pop and adult contemporary and so on.

5582             MR. MAHEU:  Exactly.  The first people that will gravitate to this radio station the quickest will be people with a very high predisposition to be first choice favourite users of oldies music.  So those folks are going to be the first folks that discover this radio station and go "Oh, you know, there's a great new radio station playing music from the '60s and '70s."  Again, I have to say that, given the way the regulations are right now on the hit versus non‑hit, we're going to ‑‑ you know, obviously we say it's 45 percent to make sure that we have a little room there so that we don't break rules.

5583             But, you know, we want to take the radio station as much ‑‑ as close to oldies as we possibly can and stay within the CRTC rules.  But the market's telling us pretty clearly if the rule wasn't in place, this would be an oldies radio station predominantly '60s and '70s, but we've had to put that extra '80s and a little bit of '90s in to cover off and make it work.

5584             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.

5585             I ‑‑ that's very helpful.  Thank you.  Moving to CTD, first I just wanted to clarify in your remarks this evening in describing your 1.5 ‑‑ just over, I think it's 1.505 ‑‑ you mention the 90,000 to Starmaker, and we'll get back to the details.

5586             You mention the 85,000 annually to the two stream of programs, but you didn't mention the 40,000 to the University of Saskatchewan which is part of your proposal as we have it to date.  Is there a reason for that?  Is there a change or was that just a mistake?

5587             MR. BOECHLER:  That is an oversight on our part.

5588             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay.

5589             MR. BOECHLER:  The University of Saskatchewan in fact is included in our CDT program.  Letters sent from Dean McNeill, head of the University of Saskatchewan music department, dated October 3rd, outlines the details.

5590             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yes, I have that.  I just wanted to be sure, and staff brought to my attention that it had ‑‑ it wasn't in the presentation, so we want to be careful that ‑‑

5591             MR. BOECHLER:  Absolutely.  Our ‑‑

5592             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  ‑‑ it hasn't been ‑‑

5593             MR. BOECHLER:  ‑‑ apologies on that.

5594             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  ‑‑ and the (off mic...)

5595             MR. BOECHLER:  It is exactly.

5596             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Staying on that component of your CTD, again we're looking at a detailed description in the deficiencies of the way the funding would be disbursed through top scholarships and festivals and the breakdown.  Is, again, the 40,000 to be split equally between scholarships and support for music festivals?  Is it still an even breakdown?

5597             MR. BOECHLER:  In my conversations with Dean McNeill, he is perfectly comfortable with that.  One of the things that ‑‑ the only thing that we touched about regarding scholarship would ‑‑ if he had the flexibility based on need, based on the year, do they ‑‑ you know, if we start them out at 4 or $5,000 scholarships annually, can they go to 210 based on needs, wants, desires of the university.  And I said, as long as we work through their scholarship department at the University of Saskatchewan and they fulfil our mandate with the CRTC and Canadian Talent Development, we would have no issues with it.

5598             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So ‑‑ and that kind of discussion has taken place, that even with that flexibility, you have to have some assurance that the funds ‑‑

5599             MR. BOECHLER:  Yes.

5600             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: ‑‑ will go in these?

5601             MR. BOECHLER:  Yes

5602             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And do you have that agreement in writing ‑‑

5603             MR. BOECHLER:  We ‑‑

5604             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  ‑‑ with the university?

5605             MR. BOECHLER:  ‑‑ we have it in agreement in principle from the standpoint if we are fortunate to receive the licence, then we sit down and we'll have that all organized and in writing from the university.

5606             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay.  Similar question as per the proposal yesterday for Regina, in an earlier letter from the Commission on 15 September 2005, which you answered September 30th, 2005, there's a detailed breakdown again of the established and merging artist programs.  And again, that has increased by 15,000, and I don't know if we've received a revised budget breakdown, and if you could provide that?

5607             MS SPENRATH:  Yes, I have it prepared, and we can provide it for you at your convenience.

5608             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.  It's ready immediately?

5609             MR. BOECHLER:  Yes, it is.

‑‑‑ Undertaking / Engagement

5610             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.

5611             Did you the address contribution to East Coast artists?

5612             MR. BOECHLER:  Again ‑‑

5613             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Sorry, East Coast.  Nothing against the East Coast but ‑‑

5614             MR. BOECHLER:  Yes.

5615             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And the administration costs, will you also explain how that works in this budget breakdown?

5616             MR. MAHEU:  The budget breakdown that you're going to receive does break down the administrative costs to give the Commission a sense of what those administration costs are made up of.  So there is some detail in the budget.

5617             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So we can assess if it's appropriate?  And ‑‑

5618             MR. MAHEU:  Absolutely.

5619             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  ‑‑ find the ‑‑ finally, similarly in this breakdown there are ‑‑ there is funding to artist representatives such as published ‑‑ publicists and managers.  Do you have an explanation for those costs as well?

5620             MR. BOECHLER:  In referring to ‑‑ I'm sorry?

5621             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  In the breakdown you can see not only administration costs, but some artist management ‑‑ artist/management travel, so the question just is to clarify whether monies are going to artists or their managers ‑‑

5622             MR. BOECHLER:  No, they ‑‑ the money there would be going to the artists.

5623             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So if you could amplify this breakdown not only in terms of costs, but in terms of an explanation of that?

5624             MR. BOECHLER:  Sure.

5625             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That would be very helpful.

5626             MR. BOECHLER:  Absolutely.

5627             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And that would ‑‑

5628             MS SPENRATH:  Yes ‑‑

5629             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  ‑‑ apply to the other breakdown.

5630             MS SPENRATH:  I'm sorry.  I can file that immediately after this presentation.

5631             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.

5632             MS SPENRATH:  I can file that immediately after this presentation.

‑‑‑ Undertaking / Engagement

5633             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.

5634             Now, the ‑‑ we're moving into the final section and we'll go back to format and ask you a little more precisely the impact of potential licensing of your oldies/classic hits station.  And you indicate in your application that 35 percent of your advertising revenues in year 1 would come from existing stations, so hence there is some impact vis‑a‑vis the format.

5635             How do you assess the potential of the classic hits, now oldies/classic hits format to attract new advertisers to radio compared with other formats?

5636             MR. MAHEU:  Well, a couple of ways, and in a moment I'm going to ask Brad Boechler to speak to that a little more specifically.  Any new radio station that signs on in the market has two challenges facing it, and it's the same for everyone.

5637             First of all, you have to go out and generate some sort of audience.  You've got to let people know that you're there, and you've got to build an audience of listenership.

5638             And your second big challenge is to go out and build goodwill in the community and generate some revenue in sales, so those are two separate and distinct streams of work that need to be done for a radio station.  The easier part is getting a new radio station on the air, promoting it and generating an audience.  The tough part is to then monetize it.

5639             We believe that our business plan that put together is quite modest and very achievable.  The 35 percent figure coming from other radio stations is a big number ‑‑ a big percentage of a smaller number though.  In terms of the revenue that we've projected for first year in the marketplace, 35 percent of that is rather small.

5640             As a matter of fact, you know, based on what we project the market is doing right now, it's probably a week and a half's worth of revenue in the radio market, so it's not significant.

5641             We do believe that the economic activity and the robust vitality that the community is experiencing right now lends itself to a new entrant being able to go out and knock on some doors and generate radio advertising revenue that is not currently being received by the incumbent radio stations.

5642             The fact that we're bringing this format, if we're licensed to the marketplace, also puts us into a unique position to be able to bring a proposition to advertisers to reach a group of people that presently are not well served or satisfied because this format is not available.  This is a very lucrative audience to advertisers, 35 to 64‑year‑olds in terms of disposable income.  And we believe that ‑‑ and again, being the new kid on the block, so to speak in Saskatoon, if we're fortunate enough, we're going to be knocking on some doors that quite possibly haven't been knocked on in a little while, and our rates are not going to be as high as the incumbent radio stations until we have some sort of track record.

5643             So we believe we've got a really good value proposition for the marketplace, and it's to be a matter of doing a good job on the air and the hard work on the street.  Brad, you may want to add to that.

5644             MR. BOECHLER:  Sure.  Thanks, Mark.  We are estimating the radio market value to be worth currently about 16 and a half to $17 million on the high side, and that's current.  Our first year, as Mark ‑‑ our first year budget, as Mark has alluded to, is about 1.4 all in, national retail combined.  And again, we are ‑‑ we would be a standalone in a market made up of strong consolidated operations.  We will be new in the market.  We have to earn our way to credibility with the advertisers.  We ‑‑ it's going to take us longer, as experience has shown us, as we've launched new stations and new operations, another market, that the sales will lag behind the acceptance of the radio station from a listener standpoint.

5645             The other thing we add, and it's a similar example to yesterday, if we take two years from this point forward, we would be on the air sometime, and if were fortunate ‑‑ not to be presumptuous, we would be on the air sometime in 2008.  Based on what we've shared with you earlier, based on projection growths, we predict the market will be worth about $18 million, $18.5 million in ‑‑ by the year 2008 whether you ‑‑ whether a new licence is granted in the market or not.

5646             And Glenda Spenrath has some more economic data for us that can tend to back up that number for us and ‑‑ as we're not privy to the numbers in the marketplace.

5647             MS SPENRATH:  Thanks, Brad.  Yes, I did look at some other economic indicators for the market of Saskatoon.  And in particular, I looked at the new housing starts and I do have an article from the October 11th Saskatoon Star Phoenix in which they quote from the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.  The new housing starts in Saskatoon for the first nine months of 2006 are up 32.8 percent over last year.  And they go on to state that in 2006, 53 percent of the new housing starts in the Province of Saskatchewan in the first nine months have occurred in Saskatoon, so it's robust.

5648             And in addition to that, I also looked at the construction price index, the new housing price index published by Stats Canada for the year ended ‑‑ for the 12 months ended August 31st of '06.  If you pull out Calgary and Edmonton, which are clearly anomalies, and they looked at 19 other metro markets within Canada, Regina and Saskatoon were on top, number 1, as far as the new housing price index goes.

5649             And I did actually step outside of the statistics for a moment, and when I was driving down here ‑‑ I used to live in Saskatoon for a number of years, and so I stopped in to visit a colleague at Pricewaterhouse Coopers when I was passing through, and he urged me to take a look at some of the new areas in town because so much has changed since I was there.

5650             And so I drove down on the south end of Clarence Avenue and he said that the city is putting in the infrastructure for an area to house 10,000 new homes.  And so I took a drive down there, and in addition to the homes are new car dealerships.  And a lot of the homes in the area, the infrastructure is going in and the new homes are going in.  And directly across the road from it, backing onto the Willows Golf Course is a whole new area of executive homes.  So, you know, things are marching along, and it's very good there.

5651             In addition to that, again, I looked at population.  I've been ‑‑ I looked at 2005's population, and what the analysts were expecting to happen a year ago ‑‑ and they were looking ahead in Saskatoon for a five‑year period, at that point they were projecting increases of .8 percent in the population for Saskatoon, only a year later in 2006, they've now revised their projections upward to a population growth of 2.4 percent.  So they've increased their projections threefold in this one‑year period, looking forward five years.  So I really do believe the vital signs are very strong for Saskatoon.

5652             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.

5653             That's very helpful.  As you know, there's going to be different versions of that outlook, and you provided some of that ‑‑ those comments in your remarks here.

5654             Certainly one of ‑‑ as Vice‑Chair Arpin said a little while ago, one of the key points of this hearing, and now in Saskatoon as well, is the discussion of the indicators that we should use to assess markets of the impact that licensing one or two, or any or none, commercial stations will have on the market and the capacity of the market to absorb a new licence.

5655             Again, if we can speak to that point and look at the Saskatoon market, if you could again tell us what you would advise are the important indicators.  Just to sum up, you've ‑‑ you also, I think, have three here.  You mentioned a few, but in terms specifically to this market, have you something that you could add to our discussion to look at what are the factors that we should consider specific to Saskatoon?  There is market profitability, but what are the other factors that you would consider?  And I hope they're not anecdotal, Mr. Maheu.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

5656             MR. MAHEU:  No.  You know, there are a number of things to consider.  Radio and its ability to generate revenue, and that's really, I think, one of the key things that we're all thinking about when it comes to how much room would there be in a marketplace to add new service because the Commission has the very difficult job of balancing the needs of the community and the citizens with the needs of incumbent broadcasters because, without them being successful, there is no service.  And at what level can the market absorb service and how much is enough and how much is too much, so you need to consider all things very carefully.

5657             You can never be a hundred percent sure of anything.  What we are sure of though, when it comes to Saskatoon, and its ability to absorb new and additional service in the market, is all the signs are ‑‑ in terms of the economy are there, that things are going to be better in the future than they are today.  We see population growth happening in the city.

5658             And another key indicator for radio is what's going on in terms of retail sales.  How much money are consumers spending in a marketplace?  Is it going up?  Is it going down?  How much is it on a per capita basis?  And Saskatoon's numbers are pretty impressive.

5659             And, Brad, do you have those numbers handy by the way?  I just ‑‑ I'll come to you in a sec ‑‑ or we ‑‑ somebody has them.  The retail sales activity that's going on in Saskatoon, even if you looked at it on a retail sales per radio station in the market basis, we took a look at that, and it's quite an interesting fact when it comes out because, when you compare it to other markets of similar or equal size, it leads us to believe that the economic activity that's going on in Saskatoon could certainly support a lot more service.  Do you have it, Brad?

5660             MR. BOECHLER:  I don't have it by station, but I do have ‑‑ the economic indicators as of what they're saying today is retail sales in 2006 will be $2.4 billion this year and projected to increase by 9 percent by 2008.  And that, again, is from FP Markets.

5661             MR. MAHEU:  To give you a better sense in terms of retail sales in Saskatoon, the retail sales in Saskatoon are $397 million per radio station.  So the economic activity in the entire city, there's $397 million in retail sales for every radio station in the city.

5662             If you go to the ‑‑ I don't want to reference Regina because you cautioned against that.  But if you took a look at Moncton for instance, a city that's a little bit smaller, in terms of economic activity and revenue available per radio station, it's in the 200 million range.

5663             Saskatoon, by all measures, when we looked at the amount of retail sales happening in the marketplace per commercial radio station operating, was anywhere from 50 percent to 90 percent higher than a lot of equivalent markets.  And actually we have that information and we can ‑‑ would be happy to give it to you.  The markets we looked at were Moncton; Brandon, Manitoba; Belleville ‑‑ they all ranged in the 2 to $300 million per radio station range.

5664             So, you know, as retail sales go in a marketplace; furniture, durable goods, discretionary consumer spending, restaurants, et cetera, by that measure, that's where radio and local radio sales lives and dies.  When the economy is good and people are spending, we do well as an industry.  When things tighten up and people stop spending and retail sales go down, we're on the leading edge of that.  And we're one of the first mediums to get cut back when things start to get a little tough.

5665             But all indicators are right now that things are very good in Saskatoon, and the indicators are, at least from what we've seen, is they're going to continue to get better over a period of time.  So that leads us to believe ‑‑ and I think that's the strongest indicator ‑‑ that the marketplace can absorb and sustain new additional services.

5666             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.  Thank you very much.  I'll hand you back to Madam Chair and my colleagues, and thank you for answering my questions again.

5667             MR. MAHEU:  Thank you.

5668             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑Chair Arpin...?

5669             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

5670             The ‑‑ Mr. Maheu, you said that according to your estimate and your own internal study, that the incumbent station were gathering about $16 million of advertising revenues out of the Saskatoon market, growing to 18 million by the year 2008.  How did you arrive at those numbers?

5671             MR. MAHEU:  I'll ask Brad Boechler to give you the detail on that, if I may, Mr. Vice‑Chair?

5672             MR. BOECHLER:  I travel all over the country.  I talked to broadcasters from other companies almost on a weekly basis.  National agencies, people in business, I'm still in quite close contact with a lot of friends and acquaintances ‑‑ some in the business, some not in the business in Saskatchewan.  I had direct access and responsibility for the Regina and Saskatoon markets with a different company up until 1999, so I had a good sense from there.  And we just felt since Mr. Cowie and Mr. Rawlinson won't tell us what the number ‑‑ or I'm sorry, Mr. Hildebrand and Mr. Rawlinson won't tell us what the numbers are, they'll go with ours.

5673             But seriously, that's where we came from.  We knew it was higher than Regina.  We estimate Regina's spend this year to be in the $13 million range.  I knew it was higher than that because historically it always has been, so that's it in a nutshell.

5674             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So if it's not in a formula of some kind, it's ‑‑ by your own experience, a market of similar size and the ‑‑

5675             MR. BOECHLER:  Exactly.

5676             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  ‑‑ the retail activity in similar markets that you have arrived to ‑‑

5677             MR. BOECHLER:  I ‑‑

5678             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  ‑‑ to that guess ‑‑

5679             MR. BOECHLER:  In researching the ‑‑

5680             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  ‑‑ estimate?

5681             MR. BOECHLER:  I'm sorry, Vice‑Chair.  In researching the market and consulting with my colleagues, we think we're pretty close.  It's not something we just pulled out of the air and said this will justify a case why more radio stations should be added.  We think we're quite close in both markets but more specifically Saskatoon.  And in using the economic indicators and projected growth and traditionally, as Mr. Maheu has said, how radio sales, retail sales in particular, follow overall retail sales, we thought we're in pretty good shape.  We're confident in our projection anyway.

5682             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Well, that was my question.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

5683             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

5684             I have two questions.  Would you agree to a COL of a minimum of 124 hours live to air programming during the broadcast week?

5685             MR. MAHEU:  No problem at all.

5686             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

5687             This age group, they're also the CBC age group ‑‑ not that CBC wants it that way ‑‑ but CBC has had a lot of coverage problems in Saskatoon, and they will be putting in their nesting FM solution ‑‑ at least they have been given the authority to do that.

5688             Do you think that will change, like, this group?  Do you think it will lower your 18 percent hole if they have adequate CBC coverage or is it a totally different group?

5689             MR. MAHEU:  It's really a different group of people.  The people that ‑‑ in the survey and that we based our proposal format proposal on are first choice heavy users of this type of music.  It's the radio station and the kind of format they choose to listen to most.

5690             What I can say, though, is that, you know, we're going to make it more difficult for CBC to get ready and share in that market because we are going to put, as you've seen, a pretty good emphasis on news and information.  So our goal is to make sure that when people are tuned to our radio station that they get the kind of news and information and service on the air outside of the music, so they feel looked after and they don't feel the need to go somewhere else to supplement to get news and information.

5691             And, you know, there are going to be those who listen to the CBC regardless and ‑‑ because they like it, and they're first choice heavy users of news and talk, but we are not planning on targeting those people, but we want to do a good enough job so our folks don't feel they have to leave and go to CBC.  So we're confident we can compete.

5692             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You can now do your two‑minute sales job.

5693             MS BENNETT:  Can I just ‑‑

5694             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, I'm sorry.  Sorry, Leanne.  I'm ‑‑

5695             MS BENNETT:  That's okay.  We're so quiet over here.  Just the retail sales per commercial station numbers that you are planning to file, would you be able to file them tomorrow morning?

5696             MR. MAHEU:  Sure we would, yes.

5697             MS BENNETT:  Okay.

5698             MR. MAHEU:  And they're from FP Markets so ‑‑ but we've got it on a one sheeter for you.  Okay?

5699             MS BENNETT:  Okay, thank you.

5700             MR. MAHEU:  Sure.

5701             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am sorry, counsel.  Now you can start.  Thank you.

5702             MR. MAHEU:  Well, there's never a sale without the close.  So very briefly, thank you very much for your time and your attention.

5703             It's Wednesday already and it's been a pleasure to present our proposal format idea for Saskatoon to you.  We're very bullish on Saskatchewan as a province and Saskatoon as a potential market for Newcap Radio to be in.  It's a beautiful city with great people.

5704             The economic activity in the city, from our point of view, tells us that there's certainly room for new service to be viable and sustainable in the marketplace.  We believe we've come with a very good format idea, one that will have a minimum amount of impact on incumbent broadcasters while at the same time be satisfying a need and a want that clearly, through the research that we did, exists in the marketplace.

5705             We've brought the news and information programming as part of your proposal and we've committed to do it, and we will, because we know it's going to be necessary to be successful.  And on top of that, we're putting our money where our music is.  We're putting a million and a half dollars on the table as part of our initiatives to develop Canadian talent.  We've got some good partnership ideas with the university and we'd love the opportunity to put that into effect and get to work and put a great new radio station on in Saskatoon.

5706             So on behalf of all of us at Newcap Radio, thank you for the opportunity to tell you about it.

5707             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Steele, Mr. Maheu and panel.

5708             And we will be adjourning this evening, but because we're three‑quarters of an hour early, we're going to start tomorrow morning at quarter to eight.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

5709             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, okay ‑‑

5710             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You might.

5711             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ 8:30.

‑‑‑ Upon adjourning at 1835 /

    L'audience est ajournée à 1835

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