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TRANSCRIPT
OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE
THE
CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS
COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION
DES AUDIENCES AVANT
CONSEIL
DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET
DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT:
VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /
PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Delta Regina Delta Regina
1919 Saskatchewan Drive 1919, promenade Saskatchewan
Regina, Saskatchewan Regina, Saskatchewan
November 1, 2006 le 1 novembre 2006
Transcripts
In order to meet the requirements of the
Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the
Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of
the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and
the Table of
Contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the
recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and
transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on
the language
spoken by the participant at the public
hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur
les langues
officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le
Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page
couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à
l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un
compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel,
est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux
langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée
par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian
Radio‑television and
Telecommunications
Commission
Conseil
de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications
canadiennes
Transcript
/ Transcription
VARIOUS
BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /
PLUSIEURS
DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Barbara Cram Chairperson / Présidente
Michel Arpin Vice-Chair, Broadcasting / Vice‑président,
radiodiffusion
Rita Cugini Commissioner / Conseillère
Ronald Williams Commissioner / Conseiller
Joan Pennefather Commissioner / Conseillère
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
Chantal Boulet Secretary / Secrétaire
Leanne Bennett Legal
Counsel /
Conseillère juridique
Lyne Cape Hearing
Manager /
Gérante de l'audience
HELD AT: TENUE
À:
Delta Regina Delta
Regina
1919 Saskatchewan Drive 1919, promenade Saskatchewan
Regina, Saskatchewan Regina, Saskatchewan
November 1, 2006 le 1 novembre 2006
-
iv -
TABLE
DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE
/ PARA
REGINA - PHASE I
PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:
Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc. (AVR) 764 / 3743
Natotawin Broadcasting Inc. 857 / 4245
REGINA - PHASE II
PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:
(no appearances)
REGINA - PHASE III
PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:
Rawlco Radio Ltd. 915 / 4596
Communications Management Inc. 927 / 4655
Hospitals of Regina Foundations Inc. 971 / 4889
Paul Martin Communications 975 / 4913
Neil Meckelborg 987
/ 4979
MapleMusic & Open Road Recordings 998 / 5034
The Good Brothers 1003 / 5057
The Poverty Plainsmen 1005 / 5067
Birdsong Communications 1007 / 5074
Jennifer Jade Kerr 1021 / 5149
Zbitnew and Associates 1030 / 5186
Lighthouse To All Nations 1036 / 5208
Shelan Schnell 1042
/ 5231
Regina Evangelical Ministerial Association 1046 / 5248
Harvard Broadcasting Inc. 1052 / 5277
-
v -
TABLE
DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE
/ PARA
REGINA - PHASE IV
PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:
Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc. 1067 / 5368
Radio CJVR Ltd. 1068
/ 5374
Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc. 1069 / 5381
Standard Radio Inc. 1073 / 5403
Newcap Inc. 1082
/ 5459
SASKATOON - PHASE I
PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:
Newcap Inc. 1090
/ 5494
‑‑‑ Upon
commencing on Wednesday, November 1, 2006
at 0830 / L'audience débute le mercredi
1 novembre 2006 à 0830
3735 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Order please.
3736 Good
morning, ladies and gentlemen. Today of
course is day one of Gainer‑Gate.
Gainer has been punted from McMahon Stadium. The province is in shock and awe.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
3737 THE
CHAIRPERSON: As you know, of
course ‑‑ and I'll give you non‑CFL speak ‑‑
the Roughriders' mascot, Gainer the Gopher has been expelled for the play‑off
game this weekend. The province is just
aghast.
3738 Nonetheless,
I'll pass it over to Madam Secretary.
3739 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
3740 Good
morning everyone. We will now proceed
with item 15 on the agenda which is an application by Aboriginal Voices Radio
Inc., AVR, for a licence to operate an English and Aboriginal‑language
Native type B FM radio undertaking in
3741 The
new station would operate on frequency 96.1 megahertz, channel 241C, with an
effective radiated power of 100,000 watts, non‑directional antenna,
antenna height of 146.2 metres.
3742 Appearing
for the applicant is Mr. Lewis Cardinal who will introduce his colleagues. You will then have 20 minutes for your
presentation. Please go ahead ‑‑
Mr. Hill will introduce his colleagues.
My apologies.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
3743 MR.
HILL: Thank you.
3744 I'd
like to say good morning to everyone.
It's very nice to be here before you today. Chair, Members of the Commission, Commission
staff, colleagues and broadcasters and ladies and gentlemen, my name is Jamie
Hill. I'm the president of the
Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc.
3745 We
are particularly excited about your appearance before the Commission today in
support of our application for a new radio service for the historic city of
3746 On
your far right is Lewis Cardinal, the vice president of AVR. Lewis is an Aboriginal relations consultant
to the City of
3747 As
well, Lewis is a recent recipient of the Alberta Centennial Medal for his work
in diversity, multiculturalism, and human rights and is this year being
honoured with the National Aboriginal Achievement Award for Community Service.
3748 Beside
Lewis is J. Robert Wood, AVR's management consultant. Bob has provided management consulting
services for some of
3749 Prior
to that, he spent 17 years in the CHUM Group as national program director and
manager of CHUM and CHUM‑FM. He
led the CHUM team in the establishment of FACTOR and was one of the first
broadcasters inducted into the Canadian Music Industry Hall of Fame.
3750 On
my right is Roy Hennessy, AVR's general manager.
3751 Beside
3752 Patrice
is also very active in her community as vice president of the board for the
Native Women's Resource Centre in
3753 And
on your far left is Grant Buchanan of McCarthy Tetrault LLP, our legal counsel.
3754 As
for myself, in addition to serving as president of AVR, I am a co‑founder
of Knapp Media Inc. We publish a
magazine, the Smithsonian's
3755 Previously
I served as communications and information systems analyst for the chiefs of
3756 We
would like to acknowledge the Saulteaux, Cree and
3757 We
also want to recognize the Metis people as well as the kind people of
3758 I
would now like to begin our formal presentation. The board of directors of AVR and I, are of
one mind, that the building of a national network of radio stations that brings
together the hopes and dreams of Aboriginal people is a necessity.
3759 We
know that the Commission has heard from AVR many times on this subject and that
the Commission has granted AVR a licence on each occasion that it has been
requested.
3760 We
know you have agreed with AVR's vision in the past and we respectfully ask that
you do so again here in
3761 We
are in the midst of creating the first national Aboriginal radio network in the
world. The Canadian Broadcasting system
has the resources to allow this to occur and the Broadcasting Act says that
when that moment arrives, service should be extended.
3762 As
you know, AVR has a unique profile. It
is a national service with a national network licence, but it has a much bigger
role to fill as the plan is to offer local service in many Canadian urban
centres.
3763 The
national network acts as a badly needed bridge from one Aboriginal community to
another and allows for discourse, healing and the exchange of stories and
events between Aboriginal people across the country.
3764 It
is essential that the Aboriginal community here in
3765 In
the 2001 Statistics Canada Aboriginal people survey there were 9,880 North
American Indians and 4,110 Metis people.
The current national trend of migration of Aboriginal people to urban
areas is a fast rising ‑‑ and a fast rising birth rate
dictates an expected population surge in Regina now and in the future with some
demographers predicting up to 50 percent First Nations population in
Saskatchewan within a few generations.
3766 MR.
CARDINAL: There are 12 radio stations on
air in
3767 It
is difficult for me to contemplate a national Aboriginal service like AVR
without
3768 A
research report conducted for AVR by Peter Doering Consultants in November of
1999, that survey of Canadians revealed a number of compelling statistics. Canadians from coast to coast overwhelmingly
approve of an Aboriginal national radio service.
3769 Indeed,
the respondents from the City of
3770 First
goal, provide exposure and support appreciation for Aboriginal culture. Ninety‑seven percent of
3771 AVR
is concerned about the great possibility of many Aboriginal languages becoming
extinct. There are between 53 and 70
known Aboriginal languages, but many are only used by elders and will die with
them.
3772 In
addition to the promotion of Aboriginal Canadian languages in the English
language portion of this schedule, AVR will, as it does in every other market,
ensure that no less than 2 percent of all programming during the broadcast week
be spoken word programming in an Aboriginal Canadian language and no less than
2 percent of all vocal musical selections played during each broadcast week in
an Aboriginal Canadian language.
3773 I
am pleased to advise the Commission that last month, Mr. Ron Ignace, the Chair
of the task force in Aboriginal languages initiative joined AVR's board of
directors where his expertise will be greatly appreciated and will be
invaluable.
3774 The
two Aboriginal language conditions of licence mentioned above, together with
the requirement that a minimum of 25 percent of all programming be spoken word
programming, including news, and a minimum of 35 percent of all musical
selections from category 2 be Canadian selections, played in their entirety,
have formed the backbone of the regulatory underpinning of AVR's many
services. AVR meets or exceeds all of
these thresholds and will continue to do so.
3775 Chair
and Members of the Commission, for a national Aboriginal service to be
effective, it must be able to both send and receive programming of relevance
from a variety of communities in
3776 So
we believe strongly in local Aboriginal content. Moreover, it is vital that the Aboriginal
community be able to access the service as Aboriginal people constitute an
impoverished subset of Canadian society, free over‑the‑air local
radio will remain their primary source for many years to come.
3777 Finally,
it is worth recalling that AVR features virtually 100 percent Aboriginal
programming during the broadcast week.
Ours is not a cross‑subsidy model.
We are a truly Aboriginal service each and every broadcast day.
3778 I
would like to ask Patrice to speak more about after the programming plans for
AVR Regina.
3779 MS
MOUSSEAU: AVR radio service in
3780 Newscasts,
public affairs programs and open‑line talk shows will all address the
needs, interests, and concerns of First Nations, Inuit, and Metis Canadians,
particularly those who live in large urban centres like
3781 The
network programming schedule will include full Aboriginal news reports,
national phone‑in programs, a women's round table discussion, focus
programs on language, youth, elders, health, et cetera, as well as specialty
music programs featuring artist profiles, traditional music, blues, jazz,
country, et cetera.
3782 The
new AVR service in
3783 AVR
will broadcast a number of newscasts which will aggregate more than three ‑‑
thirty ‑‑ sorry, three and a half hours per week. New story selection will focus on ‑‑
on events which impact
3784 Additional
priority will be given to providing a venue for the expression of non‑mainstream
viewpoints on current matters of the day.
Source material from newscasts will come from Internet‑based, free
news services, materials provided through cooperative arrangements with other
local and regional alternative news sources and network‑produced
reports. Original reportage will
increase with the developing capacity of the news department.
3785 AVR
also proposes to create a three‑minute feature to be called Community
Calendar, to provide a schedule of performances and other events taking place
in
3786 As
noted earlier, AVR also proposes the same condition of licence requiring 25
percent of the broadcast week to be comprised of spoken word programs as it is
found elsewhere on AVR services throughout
3787 In
addition to the local programming already discussed, AVR will feature a number
of national spoken‑word programs that will become available to
3788 While
spoken word will be a significant component of the AVR Regina schedule, the
station will also feature a mix of primarily Canadian and worldwide Aboriginal
artists in a broad range of genres.
Program hosts will provide informed commentary on the artist presented,
along with a variety of education ‑‑ educational and
entertaining Aboriginal Canadian perspectives on issues of the day.
3789 The
widespread national availability of the AVR radio service has already
dramatically increased exposure to the work of Aboriginal Canadian
artists. Encouraging an increased
awareness of Aboriginal culture, AVR will play a leading national role in the
development and radio exposure of Native musical and spoken‑word talent.
3790 AVR
has already begun the development of a national archive of Aboriginal Canadian
artists. Currently there are 70 ‑‑
7,500 individual selections performed by 658 artists and groups. The majority of the programming on AVR is
drawn from this growing and important resource.
3791 AVR's
conditions of licence across
3792 AVR's
over‑delivery will be no different in
3793 AVR
has since agreed to assist the Commission by confirming the Canadian content
status of these Aboriginal Canadian artists who are not currently in the
Commission's database.
3794 Once
this extensive project is complete, AVR's Aboriginal Canadian content level
will be found closer to 60 percent. AVR
will aggressively promote the involvement of Aboriginal Canadian artists
through regular airplay, interview appearances, guest hosting and live studio
performances. AVR will encourage live
music by offering extensive free promotion of the upcoming performances of
Aboriginal artists.
3795 MR.
HILL: In closing today I want to thank
the Chair and members and staff of the Commission and the other licence
applicants who are our colleagues in the broadcast industry.
3796 We
want to thank the indigenous people of this area for permitting us to gather on
their traditional territory for these hearings and we thank the Creator for our
blessings.
3797 The
Broadcasting Act, section 3(1)(d)(iii) states that the Canadian broadcasting
system should reflect the special place of Aboriginal people within Canadian
society.
3798 Section
3(1)(o) of the Act states that programming that reflects the Aboriginal
cultures of Canada should be provided within the Canadian Broadcasting system
as resources become available for that purpose.
3799 The
boards of directors of AVR gratefully acknowledge the support of Phil Fontaine,
the National Chief of the Assembly of First Nations; George Erasmus, co‑Chair
of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal People; Perry Bellegarde, former Grand
Chief of the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations and the Regional Chief
of Saskatchewan; Beverley Jacobs, president of the Native Women's Association
of Canada; Vera Pawis‑Tabobondung, president of the National Association
of Friendship Centres; Marg Friesch, coordinator of the Circle of Aboriginal
Community Voices here in Regina; Don Ross, president of Premier Developments;
and the 90 percent of the respondents to the Doering survey who live in Regina
and who reported they fully support the need for a national Aboriginal radio
service.
3800 We
are also delighted to have received strong support from such stars of the
Aboriginal Canadian music scene as John Arcand, Donny Parenteau, Eekwol, and
Andrea Menard. They understand the value
of a national Aboriginal radio service both to their own development as
musicians but also to the Aboriginal communities from which they come.
3801 Thank
you.
3802 And
we would be pleased to respond to your questions. All my relations.
3803 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Hill.
3804 Vice‑Chair
Arpin...?
3805 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Mr. Hill and your team.
3806 I
will address my question to you, but you may ask where ‑‑ who
you think is most appropriate to answer the question to the members of your
team.
3807 I
know that we ‑‑ at this hearing we will have the opportunity
to see you two other times, but ‑‑ so I will, today, restrict
my questions only to the Regina application.
I know that tomorrow we will have an opportunity to hear your
3808 So
could you, as a first question, explain to the Commission why at this time in
the evolution of AVR it is ‑‑ you have applied for a service
in this market in
3809 MR.
HILL: Yes.
3810 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: I think you partly gave the
answer in your oral presentation, but you may want to expand.
3811 MR.
HILL: Okay. Yes, Commissioner Arpin, I guess the primary
reason is we feel very confident and, you know, strong about the idea that this
national radio service is extremely important to Aboriginal people and we think
that it's a ‑‑ as important to the Aboriginal community in
Regina as is important as any other urban city.
3812 The
Aboriginal people of
3813 The
second reason, I think, is the fact that, you know, when this has happened in
the past with AVR that we are faced with a situation where potentially we may
not be able to have the opportunity to achieve a licence in Regina for a very
long time.
3814 So
the fact that the call for the
3815 MR.
CARDINAL: Yes. I just want to add to the comment of having
the reflection of the Aboriginal voice brought back to the Aboriginal community
here in the City of
3816 Cultural
reflectivity is a very important part and process of strengthening our
Aboriginal communities, and we know that if we can create that space and
opportunity for the Aboriginal voice to be heard far and wide around this
region, we will be contributing not only to the wellbeing of Aboriginal people
in Canada, but also to the wellbeing of the community as a whole.
3817 MR.
HILL: Just to finish that answer, you
know, one of the primary missions of Aboriginal Voice Radio is to improve the
lives of Aboriginal people. And, you know,
we would certainly like the opportunity to help in that regard as much as we
can as a national radio service for the community in
3818 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: So thank you. One of the first question that is ‑‑
appears to be obvious, at least for the Commission, is how will you be able to
finance the implementation of a new service for
3819 MR.
HILL: Commissioner, we've done
projections which we have ‑‑ financial projections for several
years going out, looking out, and we've submitted financial projections that
show that we have the financial wherewithal as far as, you know, getting the
3820 Our
projections are very conservative and they're based upon revenue streams which
are virtually guaranteed because they're long‑term commitments from
broadcast benefit packages.
3821 We've
also added advertising, and I guess there's some grant contributions where we
would apply for grants, but we have extremely conservative advertising
projections for a national radio service.
They're very, very low.
3822 So
we wanted to give you a financial picture going out that is ‑‑
you can have a very high degree of confidence in because they're virtually
guaranteed revenue streams.
3823 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: I don't think that those
financial projections have been filed with the Commission, have they?
3824 MR.
HILL: I thought they did. But for sure we can file them with the Commission
and ensure that you have them if we haven't yet, but I was under the impression
that we did.
3825 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Looking at ‑‑
3826 MR.
HILL: I believe we'd be able to give you
those ‑‑ to you today.
3827 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Okay, fine. Well, the ‑‑
3828 MR.
HILL: Maybe if I could just add that,
you know, in the development of the AVR national network there is a sequence
that we see, and that is the first thing is to develop the stations and get the
financial wherewithal to put ‑‑ to obtain licences and put the
stations on the air.
3829 The
next thing is to improve the programming to a point where it's high quality
programming and of course, following that, we would be able to develop a ‑‑
to a pretty strong sales effort once we do things as far as the programming and
getting the stations on the air.
3830 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: The ‑‑ other
than having financial projections that you have developed, the ‑‑
do you have the necessary documentation that will help us to understand ‑‑
well, we are certainly aware of the benefit packages that has been approved in
the past, so we know that the Commission has approved a good number of
broadcasters' proposal to support the development of AVR.
3831 But
other than that, do you have any other documentation that supports the ‑‑
your ‑‑ they're ‑‑ your availability of
funds?
3832 MR.
HILL: Well, you know, we put a lot of
work into the financial projections to ensure that we were going to be on the
mark regarding the financial future, so we can provide extensive information to
the Commission and, you know, we'd certainly be willing to do that,
Commissioner Arpin.
3833 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Yeah. And obviously some of it will be filed on a
confidential basis so there ‑‑ if you think that you require
that these documents not be put in the public record, staff and legal ‑‑
our legal people will surely look at and advise if it is ‑‑ if
it could be filed in ‑‑ under confidence.
3834 MR.
HILL: Okay. We appreciate that very much.
3835 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: I know other than ‑‑
obviously you addressed the issue of capital expenditures, but then there's the
operational expenditures of a transmitter, and you also have programming plans
and you ‑‑ and pre‑launch operating cost.
3836 Do
you have the ‑‑ do you have on hand the financing to do such
an investment for the
3837 MR.
HILL: Yes, Commissioner. We have projected enough money. As a matter of fact, moving out into the
future year by year in the documents that we submit, you'll find that we
actually are in a surplus situation moving out ‑‑ as we move
out.
3838 And
this ‑‑ these have taken into account getting the stations on
the air and providing a level of service.
I have to say that, you know, the aspiration of AVR is to provide the
most premium high quality service, you know, that anyone could provide for
Aboriginal people. And we do recognize
that that is contingent upon finances, you know, having the financial
wherewithal to do a premium service.
3839 What
we've projected, I would say, is a moderate service because, you know, we
wanted to indicate to you that we could do that with a high degree of
confidence based upon virtually ‑‑ the ‑‑
based upon revenue streams that are almost virtually guaranteed.
3840 But
I want to say that we do believe amongst the AVR team that we are going to out‑perform
what the projections are that we're giving to you. As you'll see, once you get a chance to take
a look at the ‑‑ the advertising revenues, for instance, are
extremely low.
3841 So
we believe that we're going to, you know, have the financing to be able to,
over a period of time, increase the quality of the programming that is coming
into Regina.
3842 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Now, I notice in this morning's
oral presentation that you have increased the local content from 25 to 32 hours
of programming on a weekly basis.
They ‑‑ you're ‑‑ I know that the
application was based on 25 hours and 51 minute of local programming. Now, this morning, in your oral presentation
you referred to 32 hours.
3843 We
will surely have an opportunity to discuss later on the content of those 32
hours, but that means that you will probably need more staff than you ‑‑
what you have prepared because I notice that when I'm looking at your
application, the ‑‑ I know that you have identified that you
will need three programming staff, including one journalist, announcer for in
excess of ‑‑ well, I have here now for 32 hours.
3844 You
have also indicated that the roll‑out of the programming will be tied to
a number of funding opportunities and initiative in which you have not
elaborate ‑‑ but the ‑‑ well, we have
all ‑‑ with respect to the funding initiative, other than
the ‑‑ that the monies that you're getting through benefits
and now you said "limited advertising revenues" and ‑‑
but you did mention grants. What type of
grants are you talking about and what is really available for AVR?
3845 MR.
HILL: Well, I think there are a number
of grant opportunities, Commissioner. We
have been successful in the past in gaining both federal grants and provincial
grants. For instance, in
3846 So
as we build the programming into each urban centre, we believe that we will be
able to access provincial types of grants to help with the local effort, as
well as to continue to access federal grants that would provide contributions
to help with the entire national radio network.
3847 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: But when you are getting grants
from one province, can you use the proceeds for ‑‑ to invest
in another province?
3848 MR.
HILL: Well ‑‑
3849 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Because you mentioned the
3850 MR.
HILL: Well, we believe that we'll be
able to do that because we are going to provide local programming, and I think
those grants would be specific to the local programming. So as far as we know right now, we would be
able to do that.
3851 I
mean it's going to vary from each province ‑‑
3852 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Yeah.
3853 MR.
HILL: ‑‑ depending upon what their programs are, but ‑‑
yeah,
3854 MR.
HENNESSY: The ‑‑ good
morning. The Trillium Foundation grant
was specifically intended to be used for the development of an Aboriginal news
department, which included news stringers in various regions of the
3855 The
application for that grant began before we had expanded our service, but they
included the monies to be used to train and develop Aboriginal news staff as
well as reaching out through the province, so a multi‑purpose application
to that funding. Those are the types of
grants that we're seeking.
3856 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: We'll now get to the specific of
your application and the note that ‑‑ well, staff is ‑‑
has noted some inconsistencies between your programming grid and other
responses that we've got out of your ‑‑ in your letter dated
August 4th, 2006, and I have a series of question.
3857 Among ‑‑
one of them is that you've stated that you will be offering a best‑of‑the‑week
recap of your weekday morning show on every Saturday morning between 6 a.m. and
10 in your programming grid. However,
you have indicated that you will also offer best‑of‑the‑week
recaps on Sundays.
3858 Would ‑‑
will you indeed be offering the same ‑‑ this recap program on
Sundays or on Saturdays and ‑‑ or is it ‑‑
will it be a repeat of the Saturday program?
3859 MR.
HILL: Commissioner, if I could, I'd like
to ask our program director Patrice Mosseau to respond to that.
3860 MS
MOUSSEAU: Yes, in fact we will be
continue ‑‑ we're doing the best‑of morning show on both
Saturday and Sunday.
3861 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: And is the Sunday a repeat of the
Saturday or is it two different programs?
3862 MS
MOUSSEAU: We're looking at doing two
different programs at this time. Of
course looking at funding, we may do a best‑of on both weekend days to
start.
3863 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Okay. Although your program grid does not express
as much, you have indicated that you would be providing three five‑minute
weekly review features on Saturday mornings.
Could you please confirm whether this in fact ‑‑ if
it's the case? And so could you also,
please, provide us with a description of ‑‑
3864 MS
MOUSSEAU: Yes.
3865 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: ‑‑ these features?
3866 MS
MOUSSEAU: The weekly review features
will be ‑‑ like, the best‑of top news stories from the
week previous will then be inserted into our best‑of morning show for the
weekends on the Saturday and Sunday.
3867 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: You've also indicated that you
will be providing seven three‑minutes community calendar features between
Monday ‑‑
3868 MS
MOUSSEAU: Mmhmm.
3869 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: ‑‑ and Sunday.
Will those ‑‑ these be seven day ‑‑
daily features or seven ‑‑
3870 MS
MOUSSEAU: It's very confusing. We actually had a small typo there.
3871 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Okay.
3872 MS
MOUSSEAU: It says seven minutes. I think at the chart that you're looking at,
it's actually ‑‑ or sorry, seven minutes total. It's actually 21 minutes per day.
3873 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Yes.
3874 MS
MOUSSEAU: So it's running seven
times ‑‑ seven times a day.
It's a three‑minute program running seven times a day, seven days
a week.
3875 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: So ‑‑ and is it
the same feature that is repeated 7 times or 21 times or is it 21 different
features or ‑‑
3876 MS
MOUSSEAU: Because different community
events will be happening throughout the week, someone can be then updating that
on a regular basis and refreshing it every couple of days.
3877 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: So at the end of ‑‑
in a given week, you ‑‑ what, you could be covering two, three
different ‑‑ two, three or four different events and update
those ‑‑ the feature as long as you move throughout the week?
3878 MS
MOUSSEAU: Absolutely.
3879 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: You also have indicated that you
will hire three staff to fulfil the local programming commitment. These commitment will include up to 49
community calendars, 15 weekly locally‑produced newscasts, 15 hours of
morning show.
3880 And
you've added more this morning, the compilation of the best‑of‑the‑week
features, in addition to research and reporting, liaising with CKV Toronto and
other station functions.
3881 In
this light, could you please elaborate on the function of each of the staff
members to be employed directly by the proposed undertaking? And even before going there, since you've
mentioned this morning 32 hours of local programming, maybe we could start
reviewing those local programs so that we have a better understanding of what
you ‑‑ what they are and then we could discuss staffing and
the capability of this ‑‑ of these fairly limited number of
people to do all that, that extensive work.
3882 MS
MOUSSEAU: Mmhmm. The star of our local content, our local
programming, is really the morning show.
That's four hours a day, Monday to Friday, and then the reviews that
happen on Saturday and Sunday.
3883 The
two people that we have working on the morning and with ‑‑ in
addition to another person, they'll be also doing the news and the community
calendar which can then be programmed and run into as local programming
throughout the schedule in
3884 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: So the ‑‑ so say
if I'm running the morning shows plus the two reviews that give us 28 hours,
the ‑‑
3885 MR.
HENNESSY: Just ‑‑
sorry, please. Just one quick thing, the
difference that we've pointed out in the calculation of the community calendar
between 21 minutes a week and 21 minutes a day ‑‑
3886 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Yeah.
3887 MR.
HENNESSY: ‑‑ that's what contributes to the adjustment up to
the 32 hours and 17 minutes. It's just
reconciling the typo ‑‑
3888 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Okay.
3889 MR.
HENNESSY: ‑‑ against what was actually on the sheet.
3890 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Yeah. Okay, fine.
Now, you think ‑‑ well, could you help us in
understanding what will be the functions of the ‑‑ your local
people?
3891 MR.
HENNESSY: Our roll‑out template
that we will use to implement service in each of the markets that we move to
commences with ‑‑ as was pointed out in one of the decisions
that we received, primarily the service will come from the
3892 And
using technology, we can virtually create a news room in someone's home. Mortars and brick are the expensive part of
our business, and that's the last thing that we'll look at moving towards on a
permanent basis.
3893 But
if we start out with the newsperson in Regina, their responsibility will be to
contribute news, commentary, interviews, content about newsworthy items that
will be of interest to people in Regina and also people across the national
network.
3894 This
content will be packaged as part of the major newscasts and delivered back to
each of the markets across the country.
If it's a story of particular interest in
3895 So
the intent is to be 30 percent local, 30 percent regional and 40 percent
national. That's our goal for the
content makeup of the newscast.
3896 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: And ‑‑
3897 MR.
HENNESSY: So we start with ‑‑
sorry?
3898 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Okay, so if I understand you
right, you ‑‑ that new person ‑‑ newsperson
will gather the information here, will produce his ‑‑ well,
his newscast or his feature, whatever the ‑‑ they have to do,
they will send it to Toronto, but it could ‑‑ but it will be
on ‑‑ rebroadcast only in Regina or out ‑‑ on
all the network? The ‑‑
3899 MR.
HENNESSY: It will be included in the
national newscast, but an extended version of that can be brought into
3900 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: And Regina alone ‑‑
3901 MR.
HENNESSY: ‑‑ more interest
3902 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: ‑‑ but aired ‑‑
3903 MR.
HENNESSY: And Regina alone.
3904 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: But aired ‑‑
3905 MR.
HENNESSY: We have the capability to
do ‑‑ or we will have the capability to do that with the new
master control system that we are on ‑‑ it's a delivery system
that we will be installing. We have the
space in our facility in
3906 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: So your staff will not
necessarily be, as you said, the ‑‑ it will work from their basement
or wherever they ‑‑ they're personally located? You won't necessarily have a
3907 MR.
HENNESSY: At the outset, no. That will have to be addressed as soon as we
introduce the
3908 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Yeah.
3909 MR.
HENNESSY: ‑‑ because we'll need a central location for
guests, for artists, for the staff themselves to work from.
3910 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: But as ‑‑ but
for ‑‑
3911 MR.
HENNESSY: A similar thing is ‑‑
will happen. We are in discussions with
the Weather Network and, very soon, we are going to introduce a national
weather forecast and a more detailed local forecast that's ‑‑ which
will be dropped into each of our stations.
3912 So
again, using technology and relationship with the Weather Network, we will be
able to provide travellers' weather ‑‑ and this is another way
that we're dealing with the issue of the multitude of Aboriginal languages and
that we're encouraging our morning show host ‑‑ the Inuit have
200 words for snow. I can only think of
about four, one of which I can use here.
3913 They
have a large number of words, and we're going to encourage that type of use of
the language to be included into the programming, so that it becomes an item of
interest. It becomes something that can
be, in a humorous way, entertaining/educational, but it becomes a positive
experience for people who are listening.
3914 Again,
those sorts of things can be done from the master control and dropped into the
individual locations.
3915 MR.
WOOD: Mr. Chairman, I might also mention
that there would be a 1‑800 listener line. There will be a news tip award line where we
would pay $100 a week and $1,000 a year for the best news tip award. There will be the AVR news correspondent in
the community and there would be contact with the local Friendship Centres for
more of the
3916 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Now, that's the first stage, and
it's in ‑‑ to start with the news gathering and news producing
out of
3917 MR.
HENNESSY: In the news position? Yes.
3918 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Yes.
3919 MR.
HENNESSY: Yes.
3920 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Okay. Then later, as finances are available, then
you will ‑‑ you're planning to have a morning show, and it's
when you will have that morning show that you will be also able to produce the
best of the week and not before?
3921 MR.
HENNESSY: Correct.
3922 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Correct. So when ‑‑ and how many
employees will be involved in the morning show?
3923 MR.
HENNESSY: For the local production of
the morning show ‑‑
3924 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Yes.
3925 MR.
HENNESSY: ‑‑ we'll have the newsperson, the morning host who
is the anchor for the show does interviews, that type of thing. There will be a producer who operates the
morning show and works to edit, putting together a community calendar, a
multipurpose position such as that. And
we also have a technician for the station that's on a service contract to
maintain us technically.
3926 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: And that will ‑‑
at which stage of your development are you figuring out that you will be able
to implement the morning program, so having local facilities?
3927 MR.
HENNESSY: As quickly as possible. We are ‑‑
3928 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: And ‑‑
3929 MR.
HENNESSY: ‑‑ we are very much aware of our ‑‑
3930 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: And in your own words, what the
words "quickly" means?
3931 MR.
HILL: Commissioner ‑‑
3932 MR.
HENNESSY: 3/25 September ‑‑
3933 MR.
HILL: Commissioner, I think that we have
been able to put together a very strong team that's very focused on the
financing issue going forward.
3934 And
as I had mentioned, we want to deliver a premium service and we took that very
seriously. And we know we have a
national radio network to build and we have specifically hired people whose job
it is to, I guess, you know, optimize our ability to achieve the type of
financing that's required.
3935 MR.
HENNESSY: One ‑‑
3936 MR.
HILL: There are more people working on
this than what is sitting here at the table.
3937 MR.
HENNESSY: One of the things that was
mentioned was the low advertising revenues.
I think we should make a distinction between advertising and our concept
of commercial advertising and what we are really attempting to create. We do not see ourselves as a commercial
competitor. We don't believe we will be.
3938 We're
not going to be comparing cost per point with the commercial operations in the
market, but we do ‑‑ and we have one of our consultants, one
of our friends, has had some conversations with national public radio and
public broadcasting in the
3939 And
they will receive the appropriate credits as you hear on public radio or you
see on PBS, sponsored by the generosity of this foundation and that
organization.
3940 We
have a representative in
3941 And
we have a consultant in ‑‑ who works out of Windsor who is
also working to help us develop this in
3942 So
it's a different sales. It's a different
product and it will be ‑‑ we don't see the money coming out of
advertising budgets, more out of community relations, education and budgets of
that nature that the companies have.
3943 So
as we develop that, you know, quite possibly if the ‑‑ if it
was a company in
3944 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: The programming plans that we are
discussing now for
3945 MR.
HILL: Well, Commissioner, we've started
to ‑‑
3946 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: To go on air?
3947 MR.
HILL: Yeah, we're working on it right
now. We haven't set a firm date. Our intention was as soon as this hearing is
finished, we're going to be into determining more of an exact time when we're
going to be able to achieve those things, but we think that it's not too ‑‑
not very far into the future.
3948 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: And it ‑‑ but
it's ‑‑ and you're following the same steps?
3949 MR.
HILL: Yes. Yes.
3950 MR.
WOOD: Mr. Chairman, I might add that had
there is no resistance on the part of AVR to provide local programming. You do not have to drag us kicking and
screaming to do local programming. We
fully appreciate the idea that local programming generates audience. That will be a very high priority for AVR,
and it's linked really, again, to when the funds become available.
3951 I
think that we've dramatically understated the capability of the network to
generate sales revenues through advertising.
And in part, I might ask Patrice to comment on some of the listener
reaction we're getting ‑‑ not just from Aboriginal people, but
from all people ‑‑ to the music that we're featuring on AVR.
3952 MS
MOUSSEAU: Our listeners in ‑‑
right now in
3953 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Can you just speak up
please?
3954 MS
MOUSSEAU: Sorry.
3955 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry.
3956 MS
MOUSSEAU: That's okay. I get e‑mails and phone calls every day
from our listeners in
3957 And
we want to be able to roll that out nationally.
We want everybody in
3958 And
I think if
3959 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Now, the local programming that
we're talking about this morning, all of that will be ‑‑ in
which language will it be? In the ‑‑
in Cree, in
3960 MS
MOUSSEAU: Shall I?
3961 MR.
HILL: We ‑‑ right now,
Commissioner, we're broadcasting two languages that I guess are the languages
in the cities where we have this happening.
The majority of the population ‑‑ and that's
predominantly, right now, Cree and Ojibwe.
3962 I
know there are other Aboriginal groups here and, you know, we would of course
broadcast in languages that are the most relevant for each city. So I know there are
3963 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: We ‑‑ yesterday
we heard there were some
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
3964 MS
MOUSSEAU: We have our spoken ‑‑
or our Aboriginal language requirement that we obviously are going to hit and
probably exceed as far as language lessons actually having programming spoken
in Aboriginal languages.
3965 But
the thing is, is because we're going to have local talent here, they're going
to ‑‑ have the ability not only to speak in English to their
community, but to be able to use their own language commonly and make it
something that's accessible and understandable, and then the people in the
community can go, "Well, yeah, this is my language and I'm hearing it on
the radio." And that's going to
have a lot of benefit to get people more encouraged to use their language and
to learn more about it.
3966 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Will you be doing some things for
the Metis community?
3967 MS
MOUSSEAU: Absolutely. In fact we already ‑‑ we
have a Metis show ‑‑
3968 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Yeah.
3969 MS
MOUSSEAU: ‑‑ right now in
3970 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Now, if things go well and over
time we ‑‑ are you planning to hire more than three and a half
people to operate your local programming contention?
3971 MS
MOUSSEAU: Well, one of the things about
AVR is we're traditional storytellers, but we're using the best technology that
we can find right now to do everything as quickly, as efficiently and as
inexpensively as possible.
3972 One
of the benefits of that is we can have DJs that are available and broadcasting
nationally from anywhere in the country, so we could have X number of staff
from right here in
3973 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Now, you haven't indicated that
you will provide both locally‑produced and network‑produced spoken‑word
programming including, like, a number of newscasts ‑‑ you
know, well, we've already discussed my question. I apologize.
3974 MR.
WOOD: Mr. Chairman, if I could just jump
in?
3975 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Yes.
3976 MR.
WOOD: One comment about additional local
reflection. There has been great interest
on the part of local community groups to come forward with programs that would
be heard on AVR. AVR would make that
widely known, that such programming would find a platform on AVR and we would
also approach organizations like the local Friendship Centre, for example, to
find out if they wanted to produce a program that would be heard locally and,
depending on the quality aspects of it or the program in its entirety, could be
heard nationally.
3977 So
it won't just be whether we have a large enough staff to accommodate local
programming; there will be feedback and input coming from the community
itself. In fact, there's a fair amount
of pent up demand for that.
3978 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Now, in the programming grid that
you've provided us, you did mention number ‑‑ a good number of
titles for network‑originated programming. However, since very little information was
provided in relation to these programs, I personally consulted your Toronto
website so ‑‑ where I found the ‑‑ some
descriptions for Red Tales, Women's Round Table, Art Review, Metis Health, AKA
American Indian Living, and Heartbeat.
Could you confirm that the description of these programs provided on
your website is current ‑‑ that currently is on your website,
and I did check your website last week, so is this ‑‑ is that
information still ‑‑
3979 MS
MOUSSEAU: Program ‑‑
3980 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: ‑‑ accurate?
3981 MS
MOUSSEAU: ‑‑ descriptions that are on the website are in fact
correct.
3982 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: So it ‑‑
3983 MS
MOUSSEAU: Now, we ‑‑
3984 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: ‑‑ they are accurate?
3985 MS
MOUSSEAU: ‑‑ we do have a few more additions to make to the
website. We've been pretty busy. Haven't had a chance to update it recently
but, yeah, the descriptions there ‑‑
3986 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: But what ‑‑
3987 MS
MOUSSEAU: ‑‑ are correct.
3988 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: ‑‑ what is on the website is accurate?
3989 MS
MOUSSEAU: Yes.
3990 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Could you ‑‑ and
getting back to your morning show that you're planning to have for
3991 MS
MOUSSEAU: This morning show is really
going to be an opportunity for the people in
3992 One
of the reasons why I'm so excited to come into this market is because the
musical talent in this province is extraordinary. We've had an opportunity to have several
artists send their ‑‑ send us their CDs because they are
really well‑known, like Andrea Menard for example, and she gets played
all the time on AVR. And there's a lot
of regional musicians that haven't even had the opportunity ‑‑
3993 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: But she's played at ‑‑
3994 MS
MOUSSEAU: ‑‑ to hear about it.
3995 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: ‑‑ in many other radio stations as well.
3996 MS
MOUSSEAU: Yeah, she's fantastic.
3997 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Yeah.
3998 MS
MOUSSEAU: But there's a lot of hidden
talent there, so on the morning show we have an opportunity for people to come
in and be heard live and be heard in their communities, as well as news,
weather, talk.
3999 We
could have people coming in talking about Aboriginal leadership, local issues,
perhaps provincial/federal politics, getting people involved in their
communities, talking about the ability of people to get involved to learn
languages. Maybe there's local programs here
that AVR can be promoting to promote the use of Aboriginal languages and bring
that back into the community.
4000 I
mean really the possibilities are endless as to what we can do for
4001 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: The ‑‑ will the
morning show be more spoken driven or more music driven?
4002 MS
MOUSSEAU: I see it probably about half
and half. A lot of music, a lot of
talk ‑‑ I mean it's a variety show.
4003 MR.
CARDINAL: If you don't mind me adding to
that as well? In
4004 And
so at this point, we're experiencing a real buy‑in from the Aboriginal
communities, particularly in
4005 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Are you on air in
4006 MR.
CARDINAL: No, not yet.
4007 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: So the thing is that it's tough
to have a program for the community when you're not yet on air.
4008 MR.
CARDINAL: Absolutely. They're very excited about the opportunity
that's coming, so that's what I wanted to reiterate.
4009 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: You wanted to ‑‑
4010 MR.
HILL: I just wanted to comment,
Commissioner, that we did talk about some, I guess, themes that would kind of
position AVR. And the first and most
important one in the spoken‑word portion is heritage and culture,
Aboriginal heritage and culture, and Aboriginal values.
4011 We
do have a show called the Wisdom of the Elders right now, and that type of, I
guess, content would certainly take place as part of the morning show. We're also very interested in promoting
environmental issues because of Native people's respect for the land and for
Mother Earth.
4012 We
do have an aspiration of, I guess, fostering discussion around, I guess, issues
such as economic development and, I guess, things that maybe some of the
leadership ‑‑ Aboriginal leadership is involved in.
4013 We
also are going to, you know, feature extensive programming about the arts,
which is certainly a large part of Aboriginal culture. And also education is one thing that we think
is very important and it's ‑‑ one of the things that we want
to promote as well. And as Patrice said,
you know, there's just a tremendous amount of talent in
4014 MR.
WOOD: Just in order to follow up on that
comment from Mr. Hill, to give you a kind of broad overview of where AVR wants
go with its programming, in order to help improve the lives of Aboriginal
people the focus would be, number one, on news every hour of the day, 24 hours
a day. We consider news very important.
4015 Secondly
would be the national two‑hour telephone talk show every day, Monday
through Friday. And third would be 30 to
60 minutes of enriched public affairs programming each and every day. That is what AVR ultimately hopes to do to
harmonize what it's doing on all of its stations. It will be an information rich service as the
funds become available.
4016 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: The ‑‑
4017 MR.
HENNESSY: We talk about the national
talk show. There is a local component to
that in each of the markets. The
technological developments that seem to be going at breathtaking speed, the
company in
4018 In
effect it's a small production board which would go into the control room of
each of our local facilities like in the facility in
4019 And
the way this equipment is designed, by simply switching a knob, in
4020 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Mr. Wood, in the ‑‑
you just mentioned talk ‑‑ just mention of news and the
importance of news and news at every hour means that there ‑‑
what you're saying is you're thinking ‑‑ talking about having
168 newscasts a week. Now for
4021 But
regarding local news, what type of content are you ‑‑ will you
be looking at? Specific contents to the
Aboriginal or newscasts about what's going on in the city? Because it has some importance also for the
Aboriginal population and ‑‑
4022 MS
MOUSSEAU: Yeah, we'll be looking
at ‑‑ I think it's a two‑pronged ‑‑
sorry, it's a two‑pronged approach as taking a look at issues that affect
Aboriginal people directly, perhaps news stories that are being maybe under‑reported
by the mainstream news, as well as taking a look at news events, current events
that mean something to Canadians at large.
But we can take a look at them from the Aboriginal perspective so that
we can say, "Well, this is what Aboriginal people think about this
particular issue."
4023 MR.
WOOD: Mr. Arpin, I just wanted to add
also that the comment about the hourly news is not a local current
4024 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: The ‑‑
that's ‑‑
4025 MR.
WOOD: ‑‑ in the future.
4026 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: ‑‑ that's what I understood.
4027 MR.
WOOD: Yes. Also Mr. Cardinal has a comment also with
regard to the dialogue that would occur amongst communities across
4028 MR.
CARDINAL: Yes. It's just important to note that the issues
that arise within different parts of the nation also have a resounding effect
on communities in the West, for example, the
4029 MR.
HENNESSY: We also ‑‑ we
regard ourselves as being an inclusive organization, and the programming that
we do is intended to invite people in to participate and learn, Aboriginal and
non‑Aboriginal.
4030 One
quick anecdote. When we were working
with the Trillium Foundation funds and had three in our news room in Toronto,
and a couple of them were juniors and were being trained. I walked into the news room one morning, and
there was the usual black coffee and pounding away on keyboards. I said, "Well, what's the big story
today?"
4031 And
there were a couple of mutterings about incidents that were totally Aboriginal
in nature. And I just smiled and I said,
"I thought the fact that we have a new Pope was pretty interesting." And I just left. About 45 minutes, an hour later, the news
director came in the door and said, "Listen to the newscast."
4032 And
they ‑‑ it had started the wheel spinning about this idea
being inclusive, and we ended up with a 20‑minute interview with one of
the representatives of Six Nations who had been there when the Pope, who had
just passed away, had visited Six Nations.
And there was a whole discussion about the relationship between the
Catholic Church and the Aboriginal people; that's the type of thing that we
want to do in each of the communities on an ongoing basis.
4033 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Now, in your programming grid
that you have, you're suggesting to have a local newscast at 6 a.m., 8 a.m.,
and 1 a.m. and for a duration of five minutes each. Will they be solely focused on local news or
what will be ‑‑ or will they also contain national news
materials? Or what will be produced here
in
4034 MS
MOUSSEAU: The Regina newscast, the ‑‑
we have the ability to draw from the national news, so they can look at the
major stories of the day, include that into their local news broadcast.
4035 MR.
WOOD: Mr. Chairman, to the extend though
that national stories are aired from the
4036 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: You have indicated that you
intend to source the majority of your future programming, such as OOP(ph),
Wisdom of the Elders, Turtle Highland Line(ph), Heart Review(ph), and other
from AV ‑‑ from your network.
The urban Aboriginal experience in
4037 With
this in mind, could you please comment on how these programs will be
specifically relevant to Regina Aboriginal population?
4038 MS
MOUSSEAU: These programs although they
are produced in
4039 So
perhaps the host is in
4040 MR.
HILL: Commissioner, I think ‑‑
I believe that's one of the strengths of AVR is ‑‑ and this
happens outside of the radio broadcast, is the exchange of stories and, you
know, information amongst Aboriginal people across the country so ‑‑
and it happens in all different areas.
4041 You
know, there are many things in the arts.
There are many things as far as the Native political leadership. There are many things as far as the elders
are concerned where there are national events and discussions, where there is a
collaboration and exchange of understanding amongst all these various groups.
4042 And
I think that's one of the benefits that the national radio network brings to
local communities, is that what's happening in the other communities is ‑‑
there's an increased awareness in the local community and what's happening in
other local communities, and I think that goes both ways, that ‑‑
that's certainly the ‑‑ you know, a local community ‑‑
the Aboriginal communities in Toronto could benefit from, you know, being
engaged and hear what's happening in Regina.
4043 MR.
CARDINAL: Let me add to the ‑‑
to those points that you've made, Jamie.
The ‑‑ right now we know that there's over 60 percent
of Aboriginal people that live in ‑‑ with ‑‑
within urban centres and we also know that across the country each of these
urban centres, like Toronto and Edmonton and Vancouver, are faced with similar
issues.
4044 One
of the top five issues that are consistently brought forward by these
Aboriginal communities is one of Aboriginal ‑‑ access to
Aboriginal culture and history. A lot of
our urban centres are without access to these institutions of culture and
ceremony, and these are very important in providing a sense of continuity and a
sense of identity for Aboriginal people within the urban settings. So when we talk about issues within
4045 How
we're dealing with them are unique, and that in and of itself creates the
opportunity for a wonderful dialogue in sharing and creating strategies to deal
with these issues.
4046 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: The ‑‑ regarding
to Aboriginal languages, I note that in your oral presentations you agreed to
the existing conditions of licence that appear in all your ‑‑
the licence that have been granted to you.
So only to reiterate, so the ‑‑ you do accept the
conditions of licence that they have been granted to your existing licence,
that they could be ‑‑ that they apply for
4047 MR.
HILL: Commissioner, yes, we accept those
conditions and we support them.
4048 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Yes, including the 25 percent of
spoken word?
4049 MR.
HILL: Yes, including the 25 percent of
spoken word.
4050 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: The ‑‑ now, are
you planning to sell any advertising locally, and if yes, at which stage in the
development of your service?
4051 MR.
HILL: No, we do not have any intention
to sell local advertising. It's ‑‑
our intention is to sell national advertising, so maybe that's a question that
speaks to our impact on, I guess, local broadcasting. And we don't expect that we're going to have
any negative effect on local broadcasting, so we don't have any intention of
selling local advertising.
4052 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Including the local component of
your ‑‑ of the programming grid that you have proposed?
4053 MR.
HILL: Yes, including that as well.
4054 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: And now, as you know, we will
hear today an application by Natotawin Broadcasting to operate also a type B
radio broadcast programming undertaking.
Well, they are currently in La Ronge and they are applying for a rebroad
in ‑‑ rebroadcasting facility in
4055 According
to ‑‑ and you referred to the 2001 census, the Aboriginal
population is approximately 16,000 people.
Some are saying that by today, it's probably closer to 20,000, but do
you think there's room for two services to serve the Aboriginal population in
4056 MR.
HILL: Yes, Commissioner, the primary
mission of AVR is to improve the lives of Aboriginal people. And we support, with that idea, I guess, as
much Aboriginal media availability as possible.
We do believe there are room for two ‑‑ two Aboriginal
broadcasts in
4057 And
I want to say especially in light of the fact that we have some demographic
projections that indicate that within a couple of generations, that
approximately half of the population of
4058 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: The ‑‑ and how
will your service ‑‑ I don't know if you have had a chance to
look at the application of Natotawin, but how your ‑‑ if you
do, could you tell me how the ‑‑ your service will defer from
them?
4059 MR.
HILL: Well, I think that it's a
difference between a national programming service and a local or regional
program service. I think that the
thing ‑‑ Aboriginal Voices is virtually 100 percent
Aboriginal. Our intention is to, at a
minimum, have ‑‑ or to play 50 percent of Canadian Aboriginal
artists. We are not aware that there are
any other broadcasters providing any type of service like that. We are not aware of any intention to provide
a service like that.
4060 So
I think that, you know, we're distinct as far as other Aboriginal broadcast
services and I think ‑‑ and those are the two primary ways
that we're almost all Aboriginal content, and it's a national dialogue and I
think that certainly I would hope that
4061 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: The ‑‑ your
service as ‑‑ and you mention it on numerous occasion, and
it's also in your original application, is catering to the Aboriginal people in
the urban centres.
4062 Obviously
the ‑‑
4063 MR.
HILL: Well, one of the things that we
have said previously and we still intend to go forward with the plan that we will
provide all of our programming free of charge to, you know, any and all
Aboriginal broadcasters across the country, so any regional broadcaster or
First Nations‑based radio station will be able to download our
programming free of charge.
4064 So
I mean some of them may be interested, and we believe that they would be, and
some have expressed interest in some of our national content just to, you know,
provide something else. I mean it's not
available right now, but the ‑‑ you know, we would be able to
provide a national content for them at whatever level they think is
appropriate.
4065 So
we have focused primarily in, I guess, our presentations on the urban
Aboriginal people where more than half ‑‑ the statistics show
that more than half of Aboriginal people do live in urban centres, but we fully
intend to provide our service free of charge to any other Aboriginal
broadcaster.
4066 MR.
CARDINAL: Maybe also add to that by
stating, again, demographics around transmigration between First Nations and
Aboriginal communities and urban centres.
They seem ‑‑ there ‑‑ there's a lot of
going back and forth between the city and their traditional areas or their
communities. That number is
consistent. That means people are coming
here and working, returning homes either on weekends or certain durations of
time. We also recognize that there's a
huge population growth within the urban centres themselves.
4067 So
in this way, AVR is providing an access to information that is not accessible
in their remote communities nor their communities in general. And I think that's one major contribution
that AVR will give to the Aboriginal people in
4068 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Maybe it's the place to ask my
questions regarding ‑‑ well, yesterday when Standard appear
for a ‑‑ for their application to serve Regina, they referred
to an agreement that had ‑‑ they had signed with AVR regarding
a weekly news magazine that they are contemplating for the ‑‑
for this market, and now it's my ‑‑ could you say to us more
about what that agreement is all about?
4069 MR.
HILL: Yes, I'd be happy to,
Commissioner. We have a great
relationship with Standard, and Standard has been very good to AVR. And what we'll be providing is some of our
news content to supplement a weekend program that they will do. So we think it's a great idea that will
increase, I guess, the Aboriginal perspective on some of the events happening
in the world that are coming into
4070 MR.
HENNESSY: This conversation with
Standard began when they were applying for licences in
4071 That
was the total extent of the conversation.
Given that we weren't applying in those markets and our mandate or
desire to expand the awareness of Aboriginal issues, we agreed that we would
supply that content to them if they were successful. When they applied for licences here and
Saskatoon, we were contacted again by Standard and said, "Would you see
your way to it being possible for us to have the same content provided for news
magazine shows in these two new licence applications?"
4072 I
pointed out to them that we were applying for licences in that market but
I'd ‑‑ and I discussed this with everyone involved in the
licence application that ‑‑ and we agreed that we did not see
that as a conflict or as a problem because, again, it addresses our mandate of
getting Aboriginal information and awareness out to the general community.
4073 And
it's quite conceivable that a number of people who would be listening to the
Standard stations, if they're successful, would not listen to AVR. So we would, again, be helping to increase
awareness and we pointed out to them that we were applying for licences and
that if we were ‑‑ both parties were successful, we would
still be going to provide that information to them. That's the total extent of our discussions
with them to achieve our goals and in a way, I guess, help them achieve theirs.
4074 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Thank you.
4075 We'll
now talk about the CTD, or Canadian Television Development Program. We ‑‑ well, we note that
your plans in terms of promotion of Aboriginal artists includes broadcasting
Aboriginal music, the creation of CD/DVD package contributing to an annual
talent showcase, and the broadcast of special events such as powwow.
4076 In
light of your stance on conditions of licence regarding the broadcast of
Aboriginal language/music, could you please indicate how such a position will
impact the diversity of Aboriginal music to be broadcast?
4077 MS
MOUSSEAU: I'm sorry, can you actually
rephrase just that last bit?
4078 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: The ‑‑ well, you
have a plan for CD, producing CD and DVD, and you refer to it in your oral
presentation that you have that still ‑‑
4079 MS
MOUSSEAU: Yes, the ‑‑
that album.
4080 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Right. I'll ‑‑ and you have
developed a music library of major importance.
4081 MS
MOUSSEAU: Mmhmm.
4082 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: And what my question has to do
with is that ‑‑ would you please indicate how such a position
will impact the diversity of Aboriginal music to be ‑‑
well ‑‑
4083 MR.
HENNESSY: If you're wondering about how
this ‑‑ how our national library actually is going to impact
Aboriginal talent in
4084 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Yeah.
4085 MR.
HENNESSY: ‑‑ I see in a multiple fashion, that we can
accomplish that, but by having local ‑‑ even just starting
with the local newsperson who makes us aware there was a large concert last
night or there's a new band, has a new CD out, I've got an interview with
them ‑‑ having that on‑the‑street contact as the
beginning, then eventually through the morning show host and their relationship
with the community, becoming an integrated part of it, they make the national
network or the national library, the ‑‑ aware of these
artists, arrange for interviews to be featured across the country, so it
becomes a developmental tool for artists in Regina and even other stations
across the province that might discover an Aboriginal artist in their
community.
4086 If
they get airplay on that local station and it's brought to us, we can then take
that and accelerate it by including it in our library, which we hope to operate
as an E‑commerce as well so we can facilitate the selling of downloads of
these artists' albums because you certainly won't find them at HMV. We are the epitome of emerging talent, so
having the vehicles like the E‑commerce downloading capability would
allow us to accelerate the development of an artist from
4087 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Your ‑‑ is your
music library ‑‑ well, will your music library made ‑‑
be made available to other Native broadcasters or ‑‑
4088 MR.
HENNESSY: We see it as evolving into a
resource for all Canadians, for everyone to access. So if a broadcaster made ‑‑
was made aware of or wanted to access our library to download a track to
feature in their playlist, that's part of the service that that library is
intended to perform.
4089 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: You ‑‑
4090 MR.
HENNESSY: And they pay us 99 cents for
it.
4091 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: I see. Now, creation of CD/DVD and coverage of
powwows locally here in
4092 MS
MOUSSEAU: Once our morning show is in
place because we have ‑‑ like, I mentioned we're a pretty
lean, mean machine here as far as technology goes. We can just take them and put them right into
that powwow and have them broadcast live from that event.
4093 MR.
HENNESSY: We are having
discussions ‑‑ oh, sorry.
There we are. We have been having
discussions and are beginning planning to make our first appearance at the
Calgary Stampede next year. Sorry,
4094 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Well, you don't have to be sorry
about
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4095 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: So ‑‑
4096 MR.
WOOD: Mr. Chairman, just picking up on a
comment that Mr. Hennessy made regarding the developmental support that AVR
will provide, again, it's a point worth emphasizing, I think, that all of the
artists featured on AVR are Aboriginal are that all of the artists are emerging
because they've never before been heard.
And that, in a way, makes AVR a very distinct service because we believe
it's the only service in
4097 Most
of the regional services and independent stations are featuring a fairly large
component of commercial, mainstream, chart‑oriented music. So whereas there's a component of mainstream
music in those stations, sometimes very large, we are 100 percent Aboriginal.
4098 MS
MOUSSEAU: Sorry, may I just make one
more comment? One of the things about
Aboriginal Voices Radio is ‑‑ that is enormous is that we are
100 percent Aboriginal in all of our music, and the fact is is that people are
going to be hearing us and knowing that their people are making this
music. It gives them the opportunity to
hear other sounds from across
4099 Recently
I ‑‑ a friend of mine brought some kids with her out of
Manitoba to Toronto to check out the local universities, to encourage them
to ‑‑ for post‑secondary education, and they were
listening to AVR for the first time and they were shocked because they couldn't
believe how great the music was on our station.
4100 And,
you know, one girl said, "You know what?
I'd had no idea Robbie Robertson was Aboriginal." Like, these are things the community at
large, especially the youth community, doesn't know. And they can look at that as a source of
pride, and Aboriginal Voices Radio will bring ‑‑ will be able
to bring that to all of
4101 MR.
HENNESSY: One other quick comment with
regards to the development of talent in
4102 And
the discussion ‑‑ to make it perfectly obvious, the discussion
of an Aboriginal Idol type of show and production has got their interest, and
that would be an opportunity where we could take an emerging artist from Regina
or in Edmonton or in Calgary, have them perform in competition and be recorded
and featured.
4103 And
whether we can develop this into what also becomes a television feature as
well, we don't know, but we have interest from the people involved in pursuing
it. These are the sorts of things that
we think about, dream about and hope we can afford.
4104 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Well, Mrs. Chairman, I'm through
with my questions.
4105 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
4106 Commissioner
Pennefather...?
4107 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chair.
4108 Good
morning. I have a question which is just
for our understanding in terms of music, and don't interpret it as a
4109 But
talking about the CD/DVD package under talent development and the project
of ‑‑ as you did this morning, of including Aboriginal
Canadian artists in the current database, et cetera. Just as a general sense, the artists that
you're talking about cover all the genre of music or are we ‑‑
you know, I am aware of some artists, but just so that we have a better
understanding, we would be looking at artists in a variety of genre from rock
right through to classical, I suppose?
4110 MS
MOUSSEAU: Absolutely. Aboriginal artists across
4111 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: And the artist ‑‑
yes, it's ‑‑ I imagine, too, that that same issue comes into
play with other organizations such as FACTOR or other organizations where the
classification is also being discussed, so that Aboriginal artists are
classified according to their genre of music as opposed to being an Aboriginal
artist. Is that also a problem in terms
of other organizations, like FACTOR, or any of the others?
4112 MS
MOUSSEAU: I'm not sure ‑‑
4113 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Are there getting ‑‑
in other words, are they being included as Canadian artists appropriately in
other areas like FACTOR?
4114 MS
MOUSSEAU: I would think not because how
are they possibly getting exposure if not through Aboriginal Voices Radio? There isn't the distribution. They aren't getting the commercial
airplay. They're not getting any media
coverage. There's not a lot of
buzz. If they're playing clubs, you know,
they're slogging it away in these little tiny clubs, and maybe they're not
getting the opportunity to come into FACTOR.
4115 Coming
into
4116 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: And then start the process?
4117 MS
MOUSSEAU: ‑‑ as well as on mainstream ‑‑
4118 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: And can start the process
that way?
4119 MS
MOUSSEAU: Absolutely.
4120 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: And we're talking about
artists singing or playing ‑‑ well, let's take singing;
obviously playing something else, but the singing in both and, of course, if
they're singing opera in Italian or German, but also Aboriginal languages?
4121 MS
MOUSSEAU: Yes. Yeah, we actually play Aboriginal music songs
in Aboriginal languages played by Aboriginal musicians right now.
4122 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Is it the majority of songs
would be in English or in Aboriginal languages?
4123 MS
MOUSSEAU: The majority ‑‑
4124 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: How does it break down?
4125 MS
MOUSSEAU: Yeah, the majority of the
songs right now, I believe, are in English and that's because I ‑‑
I believe that Aboriginal artists are concerned about becoming commercially
viable. In order to do that, they want
to sing in English. More people will
understand that.
4126 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Of course.
4127 MS
MOUSSEAU: Again with AVR, we have an
opportunity to play those Aboriginal languages, those Aboriginal songs. Perhaps you might encourage more of our
artists to start, again, singing in their original languages.
4128 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: That's sort of my point
when saying ‑‑ I'm not talking about the 2 percent, but it
is ‑‑ a component of the mandate of AVR is bringing that
exposure but also that was access for the rest of
4129 MS
MOUSSEAU: Yeah. I mean we hit our 2 percent to requirement,
but that's not why we play the music.
The songs are fantastic, and they get ‑‑ include not
just in those sections of our Aboriginal music programming, but it's also
included in our main play lists.
4130 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: A couple of other follow‑up
questions from your discussion with Vice‑Chair Arpin, you mentioned the
two‑hour national talk show. Would
it ‑‑ which would appear to be an open‑line show because
I think people will be calling in, and that was your point in terms of a
discussion about
4131 MR.
HENNESSY: Yes, the production facilities
will be able to monitor delay the broadcast.
There will be a producer in place to monitor content and make sure that
we're within guidelines.
4132 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: A producer in
4133 MR.
HENNESSY: That will be the hub for the
program.
4134 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Right.
4135 MR.
HENNESSY: But as I pointed out with the
technology we've got, we'll be able to remote ‑‑ we can bring
a guest in. We could have the mayor of
4136 MR.
WOOD: Also ‑‑
4137 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: And local residents in
4138 MR.
WOOD: No, that's ‑‑ I'm
sorry. I was just going to say one of
the most important components of a talk show is the person who screens the
calls.
4139 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Yes.
4140 MR.
WOOD: So as the calls come in, somebody
at headquarters will be screening the calls, not only for appropriateness to
the subject, but for balance and to ensure that all points of view have a
chance to be aired. So we definitely
will provide for that.
4141 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: And local residents here
would use a ‑‑
4142 MR.
WOOD: A 1‑800 line.
4143 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: ‑‑ 1‑800 number?
4144 MR.
WOOD: Yes.
4145 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: You also discussed the
website program descriptions, and I think you indicated to my colleague that
there were some descriptions that were to be added. And in order to have a complete picture of
the program descriptions for our purposes, could you supply us with the program
descriptions and ‑‑ so we don't have to wait for the website?
4146 MS
MOUSSEAU: Absolutely. I can provide you either a hardcopy or
digital copy by the end of the day or ‑‑ whatever, by the
week, whatever ‑‑ your choice, whatever you'd like.
4147 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
4148 And
just my last question is I hate ‑‑ Mr. Hennessy ‑‑
Miss ‑‑ do you want to pick up on that timing question,
counsel? Thank you. Speaking of timing, I just wanted to get back
to your "quickly as possible", Mr. Hennessy.
4149 And
thanks to your discussion this morning, I think we have a better understanding
of how you see this service, as Mr. Cardinal so eloquently said at the
beginning of the discussion, a service ‑‑ an AVR without
4150 And
so I come back to the question of ‑‑ I think I understand the
thesis of how the local service would develop over time, but in terms of this
being an application for frequency in the Regina market, could I ask you again
to give us perhaps a more precise sense of when you feel that the morning show
will be a Regina morning show, if I can put it that way, and the rest of the
grid would in fact ‑‑ in addition to the talk show being a
national show and the other national shows available, the concept of a Regina
AVR service would be a reality? Can you
give us a better sense of the "quickly as possible"?
4151 MR.
HILL: I could comment on that,
Commissioner. I mean this ‑‑
it's a projection, and if I was to lay odds, I would say that by the end of a
one‑year period of being granted the licence that we would be able to
achieve pretty much the quality that we intend to.
4152 And
I base that upon the fact that I've been on the board for a couple of years and
I've seen great strides forward under not the best conditions. And I think that we have an extremely
talented team in place, that it's ‑‑ if I could, I think it's
the best team that AVR's had so far.
Although there was a lot of talents that, you know, got us to this
point, but we've tried to put a team in place right now that can move us on to
the next level. And from my awareness, I
think that ‑‑ I mean I'm very happy with the way things are
going at this point.
4153 And
we've given you a conservative, I guess, projection on what we're going to do,
but we're quite confident ‑‑ and we do that on purpose. You know, we want to give you something that
you can have a great confidence in. But
from what I know personally about ‑‑ you know, about AVR and
the things that we're working on, I have a very high level of confidence that
we're going to be able to, you know, deliver on what I would call, you know,
the top programming that we could very quickly.
4154 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Mr. Hill. Thank you, Madam Chair.
4155 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Thank you.
4156 I
just have a few questions. Would you
agree to a
4157 MR.
HILL: Yes, we would.
4158 THE
CHAIRPERSON: And given your high level
of confidence, Mr. Hill, would you agree to a
4159 MR.
HILL: We will agree to the conditions of
licence that you think are appropriate and we'll work vigorously to meet
those. And I want to say that we take
these things extremely seriously and ‑‑
4160 THE
CHAIRPERSON: As do we.
4161 MR.
HILL: Yes.
4162 MR.
WOOD: Commissioner, if I could just
respond to the condition of licence for local advertising? In the event that AVR reaches the threshold
that would enable us to do local advertising, we think that ‑‑
we would hope that the Commission would keep in mind that there are probably
emerging Aboriginal businesses that might want to advertise on AVR. That's the only comment I'll make.
4163 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I thought your model
was sponsorship, and that's a totally different issue.
4164 MR.
WOOD: Well, it's ‑‑
whether it's ‑‑ whether you're calling it sponsorship or
whether you're calling it advertising, within your regulation, effectively if
there's a condition there that says we can't do that, then we shut out local
advertisers who might want to advertise on the radio station, or sponsors.
4165 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Well, I don't know ‑‑
4166 MR.
HENNESSY: It's not our ‑‑
4167 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Hennessy...?
4168 MR.
HENNESSY: It's not our intention to have
a retail sales force on the street competing with the commercial
broadcasters. Our focus is to generate
funding to develop the network from those alternate sources that I pointed out,
but the ‑‑
4169 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So on the understanding
that sponsorship is not included in the concept of local advertising, will you
agree to a
4170 MR.
HILL: We'll agree to your conditions of
licence and comply with them.
4171 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And you will agree to a condition of licence
that by the end of year two of the licensing term, you will be here and
producing 32 hours a week of locally produced programming?
4172 MR.
HILL: If that is the decision of the
Commission, yes, we will.
4173 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Well, will you agree to
that or not?
4174 MR.
HILL: We would.
4175 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
4176 And
as to your issue, Mr. Wood, of emerging businesses, I don't know if you heard
this morning that SIGA, Saskatchewan Indian Gaming Association, has earned 40
million in profits, net profits. And
that, then, goes to my question to you, Mr. Hennessy. Is there no thought of seeking out
sponsorships from some of the not emerging, but already existing, very strong
First Nation businesses in the West?
4177 MR.
HENNESSY: Absolutely. Those are the types of organizations that we
would want to talk to. We have worked
with, based on our ‑‑
4178 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Have you gone to Peace
Hills Trust in
4179 MR.
HENNESSY: No, we've been dealing with
Ontario Lottery and Gaming Commission and with the casino ‑‑
or Casino Rama.
4180 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, yeah.
4181 MR.
HENNESSY: We've been dealing with them
and they ‑‑ now again, there is a situation where they have
not sponsored the program, but they have participated in programs dealing with
addiction to gambling and have also purchased a campaign regarding
responsibility in gambling. So that's
sort of a bit of a grey issue as to what is advertising. It's not ‑‑
4182 THE
CHAIRPERSON: It's indeed unfortunate
that you have received the opposition of the La Ronge Band which owns one of
the very ‑‑ I'm going to say probably one of the top
businesses in Saskatchewan, and that you've lost the confidence of the Prince
Albert Grand Council because they also own one of the top ten businesses in
Saskatchewan, so it's a ‑‑ it's unfortunate.
4183 At
page 5 of your production of your presentation today, you've made this
assertion that Canadians from coast to coast overwhelmingly approve of an
Aboriginal national radio service, and I want you to review that assertion
given the questions that Mr. Doering asked.
And if you look at page 29 of what he asked, I think you should be
careful in using that assertion. If you
notice, what he said is, "I would like to ask you some questions about a
concept for a new radio station in your city."
4184 Now,
if you can tell me where it refers to an Aboriginal radio network, I would
accept your assertion. However, I only
see three questions that he asked, and none of them refer to a national
Aboriginal network. So the demand, I
agree, in
4185 MR.
WOOD: Commissioner, I'd just make a
comment that we'd be more than pleased to follow up with a statement on that
from Mr. Doering.
4186 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yeah. Well, unless there were other questions, it's
difficult to see the basis for his conclusion.
4187 I
wanted to talk what about I call reinventing the wheel and I'm having some
concerns, as you may have heard yesterday about that too, not in relation to
yourselves but in relation to other issues.
4188 Do
you have any relation with APTN? Because
they have a terrific news‑gathering machine already in force. Have you tried to set up any cooperative
arrangements with them?
4189 MR.
HILL: Madam Chair, to tell you the
truth, we've been so engaged in the initiatives before us and the challenges
before us as far as getting our stations on the air, that we haven't had the
opportunity. We've certainly agreed that
it is ‑‑
4190 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Because they've got a lot
of resources, you know, in terms of people in the North and ‑‑
4191 MR.
HILL: Yes, yes. And we've always thought that once we get to
a certain point, that ‑‑ and that's the relationship building
part and looking for partnerships and so forth where we can, I guess, mutually
benefit from these relationships that we would do that. But I guess we saw a sequence, and we were
very much focused on getting our stations on the air and meeting our
commitments.
4192 THE
CHAIRPERSON: And they also have ‑‑
Mr. Wood, they have a national talk show, and it would make imminent sense for
me that ‑‑ if you would rebroadcast it, and simply because
APTN sometimes doesn't have the station on the ‑‑ the spot on
the dial under 20, I mean it makes sense to me that that would achieve some of
your objective, and then you could build into developing your own in ‑‑
rather than redoing something.
4193 MR.
WOOD: Yes, I think that's absolutely
correct but I also think there's such a pent up demand to express points of
view ‑‑
4194 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yeah.
4195 MR.
WOOD: ‑‑ from different regions of the country that ‑‑
and also, radio does deliver the component of access to our service on free
over‑the‑air radio, so it's available to people who might not have
access in certain workplace locations or, for example, in their vehicle. There are a lot of programs that they
wouldn't be able to access that are on APTN, and likewise.
4196 So
if we were running the APTN service, it's ‑‑ it would certainly
be a benefit to us, but it ‑‑ our programming would be of
benefit to them as well.
4197 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I agree.
4198 MR.
WOOD: They receive a significant amount
of revenue through cable fees and I think it goes with the territory that, if
you have the revenue, you can generate high quality programming.
4199 And
when AVR completes its financing and revenue plans, it too will provide high
quality programming, but we certainly think there is merit in meeting with Mr.
Larose and his staff and talking about those possible synergies.
4200 THE
CHAIRPERSON: And in terms of your
library, it also seems to me like you're reinventing the wheel because, when
you first appeared in front of us in Toronto, your panel consisted of Mr. Dave
McLeod of NCI, one of the pre‑eminent ‑‑ I'm going to
say ‑‑ experts on Aboriginal music in Canada, and he does the
top 20 every week and certainly has been around Aboriginal music forever. And I'm sure his library, if you cooperated,
would ‑‑ could also build ‑‑ you could build
together.
4201 Ms
Mosseau, you wanted to ‑‑
4202 UNIDENTIFIED
SPEAKER: Turn your mic on.
4203 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Like, I just constantly
hear rebuilding, and it seems to me cooperation would be a far better way to
go.
4204 MS
MOUSSEAU: If I can talk first about
APTN? APTN is an amazing channel. It is ‑‑ it's absolutely
needed to happen here in
4205 So
right now when we look at creating our talk shows, we have to look at issues
that are most affecting the urban Aboriginals.
And then, you know, perhaps in the future when we can look at a larger
collaboration, when we can ‑‑ instead of separating urban
Aboriginals, reserve Aboriginals, Inuit, the North, and the different
provinces, we can end up in a position where we're all together as one. And at that point APTN and AVR working together
is ‑‑ it makes logical sense but, right now, we have to look
at what our mandate is, and that is serving Aboriginal ‑‑ the
urban Aboriginal.
4206 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
4207 You
now have two minutes to convince us.
4208 MS
BENNETT: Sorry, could I just address a
couple of housekeeping matters? Sorry,
just a few quick clarifications. You
said today that you would ensure that no less than 2 percent of all programming
during a broadcast week would be spoken‑word programming in an Aboriginal
Canadian language. Is that a commitment
by
4209 MR.
HILL: That is a commitment we're
prepared to make.
4210 MS
BENNETT: Okay, by condition of licence?
4211 MR.
HILL: Yes.
4212 MS
BENNETT: Okay, thanks. Now, earlier you talked with Commissioner
Arpin about filing financial projections.
My understanding is that there are no financial projections on the file,
so could you file those today, maybe if you've got them with you, right after
your presentation?
4213 MR.
HILL: Yes, we have them with us and we
can file them today.
‑‑‑ Undertaking /
Engagement
4214 MS
BENNETT: Okay. And similarly with the program descriptions,
if you could file those at the same time?
Okay. And the last part was
documentation on the availability of funds.
Would you have that information available today as well?
4215 MR.
HILL: The availability of funds, what
was that referring to?
4216 MS
BENNETT: Well, you had a discussion with
Commissioner Arpin about the various sources of funding that you are
projecting, and I think you spoke with him about the possibility of filing some
documentation ‑‑
4217 MR.
HILL: Oh, okay.
4218 MS
BENNETT: ‑‑ with respect to those sources?
4219 MR.
HILL: Yes. Yes, but I don't think that we have all of
that information today, but we can file that very quickly ‑‑
oh, we can? Oh, okay. Well, I guess ‑‑
4220 MS
BENNETT: Well ‑‑
4221 MR.
HILL: I ‑‑ I'm sorry, I
stand corrected. We do have that
information with us and we can file that.
4222 MS
BENNETT: Okay, great. Thank you very much.
4223 MS
MOUSSEAU: And I'll get that other
document to you right away. I just have
to go print it.
4224 MS
BENNETT: Okay, thank you. That's it.
4225 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Now two minutes.
4226 MR.
HILL: Thank you, Madam Chair.
4227 I'd
like to, I guess, talk about the importance of AVR and then, if we have time in
the two minutes, I'd like to ask Lewis Cardinal to finish up.
4228 The
mission of AVR is to improve the lives of Aboriginal people, and we think that
our role through radio broadcasting is a very important one to do that. There's ‑‑ currently exists
a market gap in
4229 AVR,
in being virtually 100 percent Aboriginal, we believe that we are one of the
leaders and will be one of the leaders in helping emerging Aboriginal talent,
both spoken‑word talent and music talent.
4230 The
dialogue that AVR would be able to provide regarding just a wide array of
Aboriginal issues is extremely important to this community, and not only to
hear the dialogue, but to participate in the dialogue as well.
4231 We
would like to respectfully remind the Commission that it is in the Broadcast
Act to provide for such a service as ‑‑ when that becomes
possible.
4232 We
will add to the diversity of the broadcasting here in
4233 And
we don't believe that we're going to negatively impact any of the incumbents in
any significant way, so I guess essentially that we believe we're an important
piece ‑‑ part of improving lives of Aboriginals here in
Regina. And Lewis, if ‑‑
4234 MR.
CARDINAL: We're trying to reconnect our
communities with each other. I
just ‑‑ as a part of our historical understanding of Canada,
we know that the major urban centres across Canada were built upon these areas
where indigenous peoples gathered, where many nations came together and
celebrated and traded and did various kinds of business together.
4235
4236 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Hill.
4237 We
will now take a 15‑minute break by my watch. Set your time. It is 25 to, so that will mean 10 to.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing
at 1035 / Suspension à 1035
‑‑‑ Upon resuming
at 1050 / Reprise à 1050
4238 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Order please. I want to welcome you. I want to, first, say that the time that we
spent on AVR is ‑‑ may have seemed an extraordinary amount of
time for one applicant. However, we have
three applications from AVR on this hearing; one for
4239 And
the evidence we obtained was for the purposes of all three applications, so I
don't wish anybody to feel that there was anything untoward about that time
taken in questioning.
4240 Madam
Secretary...?
4241 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
4242 We
are now ready to proceed with item 16 on the agenda which is an application by
Natotawin Broadcasting Inc. to amend the licence of the Native radio program
undertaking CJLR‑FM, La Ronge,
4243 The
licensee proposes to add an FM transmitter at
4244 Appearing
for the applicant is Ms Deborah Charles, who will introduce her colleague. You will then have 20 minutes for your
presentation. Ms Charles...?
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
4245 MS
CHARLES: Good morning. (Native language spoken).
4246 My
name is Deborah Charles. I'm the chief
executive officer for Missinipi Broadcasting and I'm here making a presentation
to the Commission today.
4247 My
colleague is Darrell Prokopie. He's the
director of sales and marketing, and we're here today to present our
application.
4248 THE
SECRETARY: Please go ahead with your
presentation.
4249 MS
CHARLES: Okay.
4250 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Can I get Darrell's last name
again, please? I didn't quite hear it.
4251 MR.
PROKOPIE: Certainly. It's P‑R‑O‑K‑O‑P‑I‑E,
pronounced Prokopie.
4252 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Thank you.
4253 MS
CHARLES: Tansi, edlanete, bonjour, good
morning, ladies and gentlemen of the CRTC.
4254 First,
I want to thank the Commission for giving me the opportunity to be here to
speak to MBC's application for an RM rebroadcast transmitter to serve the
Aboriginal listening audience of
4255 We
at MBC believe that the quality news and informational spoken word in
Aboriginal languages, programming and entertainment by way of our Aboriginal
musicials and performance artists are two of the most important ways to expose
urban Canadian listening audiences to Aboriginal culture, philosophy, ideas,
opinions, music and artists, and hence expand their appreciation of Canada's
diverse cultures and peoples. That is
why those elements are here ‑‑ are the core of our broadcast
programs.
4256 MBC
feels that the objectives for
4257 MBC
feels that the ‑‑
4258 The
approval of our application so that they may provide Aboriginal language radio
service to
4259 MBC
feels that the MBC/Natotawin application for a rebroadcast transmitter to carry
our programs to the Aboriginal and non‑Aboriginal listeners of
4260 The
Canadian Broadcast Act states that all programming should be of a high standard,
balanced on matters of public concern, relevant to local communities, and
reflect
4261 MBC/Natotawin
believes that in many respects it actually has been raised ‑‑
raising and indeed establishing the bar on the standards of the radio
broadcasting relevant to the Aboriginal people on this ‑‑ of
this country.
4262 I
know that MBC is unique in its dedication to addressing those concerns relevant
to the Aboriginal communities in ‑‑ of this province.
4263 It
is MBC's view that it is only fitting that the CRTC would regulate Aboriginal
radio with respect to the content offered in a manner similar to the regulation
in place for non‑Aboriginal broadcasting undertakings, but we also believe
that there must be an appreciation of inherent cultural differences between the
Aboriginal and mainstream segments of society and how our people perceive and
interpret what is offered to them over the airways.
4264 We
at MBC seek to refine and improve the standards of broadcasting content
directed towards our people, not to dismiss, abrogate or lower them. Most importantly, we know that Aboriginal
people want to hear Aboriginal broadcasters speaking and understanding their
own language, providing them with radio programs that they can relate to and
easily comprehend.
4265 Respectfully
our application for a licence for a rebroadcast transmitter carries with it our
commitment to honour in all aspects of news and information content and
Aboriginal language usage and promotion of Aboriginal artists.
4266 I
do not wish to speak at length about the quality of MBC's radio service in the
short time available, but I have made provisions today to all the members of
the Commission to receive a copy of my speaking notes here, and also other
notes that clearly outline our high standard of service and historical
commitment of MBC to the provision of the best of radio, all listeners
Aboriginal and otherwise.
4267 Specifically
MBC by its application makes the following commitments and guarantees: MBC guarantees the Commission the daily
provision of Aboriginally relevant newscasts, information and entertainment
content. MBC guarantees the Commission
that it will provide significantly more dedicated Aboriginal language
programming and the promotion of and airplay of Aboriginal artists and
performance ‑‑ performers in the daily programs than any other
radio station in the province can, could or would provide.
4268 MBC
guarantees the Commission that it will provide these culturally and
linguistically relevant broadcasting programs to the Aboriginal community of
4269 MBC
guarantees the Commission that it will ensure the inclusion of content of
specific concern to
4270 MBC
guarantees the Commission that it will uphold to any ‑‑ all
rules of the Broadcasting Act including a commitment to cover, fulfil the
Canadian content requirements.
4271 With
respect to five issues that the Commission stated they wished to address in
their correspondence as at October 16th, two ‑‑ 2006, I received
a letter and I'll go through them in point form the way it was written to me.
4272 In
addition to the English, MBC utilizes three main spoken Aboriginal languages
used in
4273 MBC
also broadcasts Aboriginal language features throughout the day and during
weekend programmings ‑‑ programs. Our Monday through Friday Aboriginal language
program ‑‑ programs are the daily Missinipi Achimowin program
hosted and presented in the Cree and Michif languages, and the Dene ‑‑
and the daily Missinipi Dene Honi programming presented in the Dene
language. Both Achimowin and Dene Honi
programs are inclusive of hourly newscasts, summaries that are inclusive of all
local, regional, provincial, national and international news and are delivered
in Cree, Dene and Michif in ‑‑ for our audience.
4274 Our
Aboriginal language programming ‑‑ programs are also inclusive
of open‑line presentations where listeners can voice their opinions in
Aboriginal languages on a broad spectrum of issues. The Achimowin and Dene Honi programs also
deliver intensive informational content on topics that cover the gamut of
Canadian Aboriginal listeners' interests in health, education, environment,
justice, culture, languages, history and safety to major and minor political
issues along with numerous other audience concerns.
4275 MBC
has also hosted and aired hundreds of open‑line broadcast and talk show
programming using Aboriginal language in the different dialects and provides
in-depth, on location programming for community gatherings and events of
importance to our audience.
4276 Through
these and other distinctive programming approaches, MBC offers a platform for
all ages to express themselves in their language and their dialects, and to be
heard from elders to youth.
4277 MBC
also presents its word of the day programming several times a day throughout
the week, giving listeners the ‑‑ an opportunity to come to
know, understand Aboriginal language used in everyday speech.
4278 MBC
is prepared to offer expanded language programming to other Aboriginal language
used in
4279 I'll
just give the floor to him.
4280 MR.
PROKOPIE: Thank you.
4281 Aboriginal
language vocal music. MBC sponsors and
promotes Aboriginal artists through consistent airplay 24/7 and significantly
supports Aboriginal musicians and singers in the way that most matters, via our
playlist.
4282 MBC
will continue to promote Aboriginal artists to the people of
4283 Almost
a quarter of music played on a daily basis on MBC is by Aboriginal artists,
many of whom are locally based. MBC has
provided Aboriginal artist in northern
4284 MBC
has hosted Aboriginal talent searches that have been simulcast on our network
since 1994 and we have sponsored and broadcast the Voices of the North talent
show, an Aboriginal talent showcase.
MBC's talent search top prize is studio time and the songs are then
broadcast on MBC.
4285 Over
100 performers have benefited from MBC's support of developing artistry through
talent searches and showcases.
Additionally, MBC has spent its entire operational history as a promoter
of national Aboriginal recording and performance artists as a matter of
cultural respect and dedication.
4286 The
reality is that MBC is the main provider of access to an audience for many
Aboriginal artists and cultural producers.
We have presented their talent to the Aboriginal and non‑Aboriginal
listening audience in
4287 Moving
on to cultural programming. MBC has a culturally
attuned 28‑member staff, including a news and Aboriginal language
production staff of seven, all of whom are Aboriginal. The majority of them speak Cree, Dene or
Michif, and some speak more than one Aboriginal language. For more than two decades MBC has employed
the majority of Aboriginal speaking broadcasters in
4288 Two
of our staff have been chosen as national Aboriginal role models in the past 12
years. We have an honour roll of over 40
board members and over 100 broadcast personnel coming out of the cultural
milieu of Aboriginal society who have served and contributed to the growth of
MBC as an organization over the past 22 years.
4289 MBC
has created a legacy of unique cultural and linguistic heritage and its
operations to date represent a genuine success story for the Aboriginal people
of
4290 Our
cultural programming covers and reports in‑depth on everything from
Aboriginal spirituality, folklore, legends and stories, to traditional medicine
use and Aboriginal food preparation and survival skills, along with the
inherent viewpoints, opinions, ideas, and philosophy that they all entail.
4291 We
are the only broadcaster in
4292 As
an example, MBC began reporting live with its own reporters from the
International Indigenous Games more than a decade ago. We do all of this with a heavy emphasis on
Aboriginal language use and presentation both by our staff and by the
Aboriginal persons with whom we are actively engaged with in covering the
story.
4293 We
at MBC are mandated and entrusted to bring Aboriginal culture, languages,
ideas, heritage and their perspective to the people of
4294 Our
projected audience. MBC, by its very
nature, is a non‑traditional broadcaster and we have always avoided
excessive commercial style, promotional and glamorization of our service and
operations.
4295 In
each and every community, we have grown to serve ‑‑ in each
community that we have grown to serve, we have relied on the word of mouth of
the Moccasin Telegraph in building and growing our audience, thus we project
our listener numbers to be low to nominal in the initial stages of providing
our programs to the Regina listening audience.
4296 We
do not expect to see major shifts in listener demographics. Our experience to date indicates that there
will be an evolving awareness of what MBC has to offer the Aboriginal and non‑Aboriginal
listeners and that there will be a corresponding, reflective positive rise in
the MBC listening audience numbers. We
anticipate having a minimum of 20,000 listeners by the third year of operation.
4297 In
making these loose projections, MBC has taken into account the expanding
Aboriginal population demographics presented by Stats Canada and have balanced
that with other known quantities such as the strength of our Aboriginal
entities and organizations in Regina, and the participation rate and contact
with urban Aboriginal society that they have experienced.
4298 Next
we move on to our anticipated revenue projections. MBC anticipates minimal economic revenues to
be derived from its establishment of the
4299 MBC
seize its ‑‑ sees its responsibility to providing a service to
the Aboriginal audience of
4300 MBC
has no immediate plans to pursue advertising revenues through active
solicitation as there are no plans in place to hire a sales representative to
be based out of
4301 To
provide exact revenue increments at this time would be quite difficult as we
feel that any immediate gains will be derived from clients purchasing the MBC
radio network and not necessarily the local
4302 There
is also the reality that MBC has only so much air time to sell. We're dealing with one clock. Because MBC is many things to many people, we
need to make our advertising available to all we serve. The small community event in northern
4303 Now,
I did include some projections for you.
These are probably on the aggressive side as we move into the third
year. At the completion of year one,
I've indicated approximately $30,000 in revenue. Keep in mind, we currently are getting some
advertising dollars out of the
4304 At
the completion of year two I've doubled that figure to show $60,000 in
anticipated revenue and the completion of year three is when we are hoping to
cover off our hard costs that we would incur through this expansion through the
establishment of technology and the ongoing operations. So at year three, I did pen that in at
$100,000.
4305 I
will pass it back to Deborah for her closing statement.
4306 Thank
you.
4307 MS
CHARLES: Thank you, Darrell.
4308 In
closing, may I say to the Commission that MBC has also ‑‑ has
laboured through more than 20 years in building a community based Aboriginal
radio network utilize ‑‑ utilizing highly skilled Aboriginal
broadcasters and linguists to serve our people, my people. Through a measured study approach we are
growing in a meaningful presence for the Aboriginal radio audience in
4309 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, and thank you
for coming.
4310 I
have a few questions for you, not that you didn't very completely and very well
cover all of our issues raised in our notice.
4311 Now,
do either one of you ‑‑ are either one of you involved in the
programming side at all?
4312 MR.
PROKOPIE: Not to a great extent, but I'm
sure between the two of us we could ‑‑
4313 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, subject to the fact
that you're not the experts?
4314 MR.
PROKOPIE: Right.
4315 THE
CHAIRPERSON: We just wanted to
know ‑‑ you have old time music on Saturday and Sunday
nights. Do you know what it is? Is it old rock? Old country?
4316 MR.
PROKOPIE: No, it's old classic
country. It's the George Jones, the Buck
Owens, the traditional country.
4317 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Mmhmm, okay.
4318 MR.
PROKOPIE: The Saturday mornings, yes,
and Sundays.
4319 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yeah. And then you have on Wednesday night '70s and
'80s music. What kind of music is that?
4320 MR.
PROKOPIE: That is primarily of the rock
nature. That's more rock and roll.
4321 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
4322 MR.
PROKOPIE: And again, if I can maybe just
interject, because MBC is many things to many people. We do have a 5 to 95 year‑old
demographic, so our programming tries to incorporate something for everybody
over the course of our broadcast week.
4323 THE
CHAIRPERSON: And you do broadcast
Aboriginal language music?
4324 MR.
PROKOPIE: Yes, we do.
4325 THE
CHAIRPERSON: How much would you
say ‑‑ how much of it would you say you do out of the total
music?
4326 MR.
PROKOPIE: Oh, I would really be shooting
blind.
4327 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
4328 MR.
PROKOPIE: Over the course of a day, you
know, I'm quite confident in saying that probably in the neighbourhood of half
a dozen songs would be sung in the Aboriginal language, and quite often those
are aired during our Aboriginal languages programming. Not always; they could be requested during
one of our two request shows that we have each day but probably in the
neighbourhood of half a dozen per day.
4329 THE
CHAIRPERSON: And are those all Canadian,
the Aboriginal songs, the language songs?
4330 MR.
PROKOPIE: Yes, they are.
4331 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Now, right now, what kind of news coverage do
you have of
4332 MR.
PROKOPIE: We do not. There has been some discussions with some
organizations and individuals to have them supply us information. I know there are plans, once we get up and
running and the Moccasin Telegraph takes effect and there is an awareness of
ultimately putting some stringers or people into
4333 THE
CHAIRPERSON: When I saw this question
that staff asked me to read, I was asking myself whether Saskatoon is really
more the ‑‑ Saskatoon/Prince Albert/La Ronge is more the ‑‑
what would I say? The ‑‑
well, Saskatoon particularly, the political capital because the FSIN is there,
and so I was sort of thinking that coverage of the legislature here would
probably be secondary to ‑‑ of interest to your listeners.
4334 MR.
PROKOPIE: Of the provincial
legislature? Yes, probably it would be
secondary to our audience.
4335 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yeah.
4336 MR.
PROKOPIE: If it was an FSIN Assembly
that was being held here in
4337 THE
CHAIRPERSON: At the elections, right,
yeah.
4338 MR.
PROKOPIE: Right. We had two of our language announcers from La
Ronge attend for the ‑‑ a few days and provide live
programming for three hours each afternoon back to our audience in both the
Cree and Dene languages.
4339 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And so the kind of programming that you would
do about
4340 MR.
PROKOPIE: Primarily, yes. When ‑‑ it doesn't have to
be necessarily a breaking news story or something that has dire consequences,
but just a story of interest that is not maybe high on the list of newscasts
that you may hear elsewhere.
4341 Certainly
once our stringers come on board, we will have a ‑‑ you know,
a thumb on the pulse, so to speak, to develop that.
4342 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Do you follow the powwow
circuit at all?
4343 MR.
PROKOPIE: We are slowly developing
that. Powwow is a relatively new
phenomenon in northern
4344 We
don't necessarily follow the circuit in terms of providing programming from,
but we certainly get involved through sponsorship of and promotion of.
4345 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Mmhmm, okay. Now, your language programming, you say over
20 hours and the daily Missinipi Achimowin program is from 1 to 3 ‑‑
I've got your schedule here from the site ‑‑ Monday through
Friday, am I correct?
4346 MR.
PROKOPIE: (Nods head yes.)
4347 THE
CHAIRPERSON: And then the daily
Missinipi Dene Honi program, and that is ‑‑ I'm losing
it. I can't find it ‑‑
3 to 4?
4348 MR.
PROKOPIE: That is correct. I may also ‑‑ should
interject. That ‑‑ what
you've just read, that's the network. So
the entire network receives those three hours of programming. We do have the capability and we do split‑feed
the far north communities, the
4349 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So Ray Campbell would start, in fact, an hour
earlier?
4350 MR.
PROKOPIE: Correct.
4351 THE
CHAIRPERSON: And provide the two hours
for the Dene area?
4352 MR.
PROKOPIE: Correct.
4353 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And then ‑‑ I was fascinated
by this. You give the news in all ‑‑
in English, Cree, Michif and Dene?
4354 MR.
PROKOPIE: Yeah, we do.
4355 THE
CHAIRPERSON: And you do it by split feed
or how do you do it?
4356 MR.
PROKOPIE: No.
4357 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Is ‑‑
4358 MR.
PROKOPIE: That ‑‑
that's network, network news. So at 1
o'clock when our Cree show comes on board, they would do a top‑of‑the‑hour
newscast that, you know, may be very similar to what was done during the 12
o'clock English informational hour.
4359 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
4360 MR.
PROKOPIE: And they'll read that news in
the Cree language, and then that happens again for the Dene hour.
4361 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And in both the Vern Lewis and Mike Durocher
hour and the Missinipi Dene Honi hour, there's music and speaking?
4362 MR.
PROKOPIE: Yes, there's music and
speaking. The speaking can be anything
from information whether it be again an event or a situation or a story that's
out there, to just things of cultural relevance. It's not necessarily chalked full of hard
hitting information all the time. It's
of relevance to the audience that it's speaking to.
4363 THE
CHAIRPERSON: And would you have an idea
of the percentage of music and spoken word in those hours?
4364 MS
CHARLES: I'd say 40 percent.
4365 THE
CHAIRPERSON: You have to put your mic
on.
4366 MS
CHARLES: I'd say 40 percent in an hour.
4367 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Forty percent music?
4368 MS
CHARLES: Yeah.
4369 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, mmhmm. And then you have the 9 to 11 morning Cree on
Sunday, and that's entirely in Cree?
4370 MR.
PROKOPIE: Cree and with some Michif
thrown in there, yes.
4371 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay, okay. And you do broadcast a hundred and ‑‑
168 hours week?
4372 MR.
PROKOPIE: We do.
4373 THE
CHAIRPERSON: What do you do at
night? What's your programming from
midnight on?
4374 MR.
PROKOPIE: It's in‑house voice
tracking, utilizing our own talent that we have on staff.
4375 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, mmhmm. So is that the only voice tracking you've got
from midnight to six or is it ‑‑
4376 MR.
PROKOPIE: No, that is it.
4377 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And any syndicated programming?
4378 MR.
PROKOPIE: We do, for our youth, carry a
syndicated dance show on Saturday nights as part of our Saturday night house
party for the youth and we do subscribe to a syndicated dance program that
airs, I believe, between 9 and 10 on Saturday evenings.
4379 We
have syndicated programming ‑‑ Paul Harvey, you know, as an
example ‑‑ over our noon information package, so we have a
couple of items that are syndicated, yes.
4380 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Mmhmm, okay. Now, you've heard AVR and how they describe
their programming. Have you ever
listened online to AVR?
4381 MS
CHARLES: No.
4382 MR.
PROKOPIE: I've tried.
4383 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. And ‑‑
4384 MR.
PROKOPIE: And no, I have not.
4385 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Have not been successful,
okay. Could you explain how you believe
you are different from them, if you think you are?
4386 MR.
PROKOPIE: Well, I guess it starts at the
grassroots. MBC was created by the
people of northern
4387 So
MBC basically ‑‑ we don't make a move without our audience,
the people that we serve telling us to make that move, and they tell us by way
of e‑mail, phone calls. They tell
us by way of the delegates that they send to our annual general meeting from
which our 11 board of directors is elected.
So they certainly pass on their concerns and what they would like MBC to
evolve into through our board members, and that's passed on down through our
CEO and senior management.
4388 We
are very much focused on the people that we serve. The information is of most importance. MBC is about bringing people to the
people. We don't wish to be anything
more than we've currently applied for, and that's a provincial network to
service the Aboriginal population of
4389 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yeah, I think so,
yeah. Do you think ‑‑
well, what would be the impact on you if we gave you a rebroadcast licence here
and if AVR were also given a licence?
What would be the impact on you?
4390 MR.
PROKOPIE: That's a tough question, and I
don't really know the answer to that. I
believe initially, like anything new, there's always a rush to check out what's
new, whether that be turning the dial or tuning in through the Internet. I ‑‑ you know, certainly
there will be a learning curve by the audience and ultimately ‑‑
you know, they will ultimately decide what is going to best suit them.
4391 We
feel that, again, through our programming, through our roots, through our
governance that, you know, over time, we will ‑‑ we will be
the Aboriginal broadcaster of
4392 THE
CHAIRPERSON: And I have asked myself I
must say, time and time again if there is a difference between a "northern
or rural Aboriginal culture and an urban Aboriginal culture", and I
am ‑‑ I'm on two sides of this. It seems to me the thing that brings you
together is the same culture as you've always had, whether you're urban or
rural.
4393 On
the other hand, it may be easier to retain your culture if you are on a reserve
or in northern
4394 MR.
PROKOPIE: I don't know if the culture is
different so much as how often and regularly the culture has gone back to or
utilized. I think the culture tends to
maybe be lost in the urban centres because you don't walk down the street and
see your friends and your neighbours who are speaking to you within the
language.
4395 So
I think quite often First Nations people who relocate from the smaller
communities or northern communities tend to climatize to the surroundings
around them. I know that's not
necessarily what they wish to do, and it's very nice to hear the comments that
we get at MBC, is "Oh, I just love tuning into MBC because I sit back and
I'm at home." You know, so whether
they've ‑‑ they're now in
4396 But
to answer your question, I think there is some culture lost. It's not by design; it's just by environment.
4397 THE
CHAIRPERSON: And your ‑‑
the reactions you've been receiving in
4398 MR.
PROKOPIE: Well, what we understand is we
have the best youth programming out there, and I heard that many times just
last week when I was in
4399 Just
coming up, I believe this weekend, out of our ‑‑ our Saturday
night house party DJ will be in Saskatoon MCing and hosting an event for the
youth of
4400 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So ‑‑ and
then do you think once you got them hooked on the evening ‑‑
on the Saturday evening you can then take them further in terms of getting back
to the ‑‑ their culture?
Like, how do you do that?
4401 MR.
PROKOPIE: Well, it's certainly the hope
that ‑‑ you know, I don't know if we can take them back, but
lest we never forget. And, you know, we
certainly do things that, again, because they're youth, you know, it ‑‑
there's still a culture that surrounds what they're doing and where they've
come from.
4402 And
everything we do keeps referring back to the culture and where you've come
from, living a positive, healthy lifestyle, respecting your elders, whatever
the message may be. You know, we plug
away. It's that constant drip of water
that wears away at the stone.
4403 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yeah. And you were talking about the fact that your
programming is sort of ‑‑ what's the word ‑‑
done based on demand. So if you were
down here, and I see on it ‑‑ I don't ‑‑
there's a ‑‑ on the fourth page of your presentation you were
talking about Word of the Day and you say, "MBC is prepared to offer
expanded language programming and other Aboriginal languages used in
Saskatchewan as the opportunity presents itself."
4404 So
the issue would be that somebody would e‑mail, write you or come to your
meeting and say "I want programming in Saulteaux" or whatever ‑‑
Saulteaux, yeah ‑‑ and then you would try to do it. Is that the concept?
4405 MR.
PROKOPIE: That's exactly the
concept. And as we speak here, you know,
we're working towards even ‑‑ you know, barring some miracle
that we don't get our application, we still plan on incorporating Saulteaux
Word of the Day for our
4406 It's
something that's been brought to our attention and it's something we're working
towards and right now we're just trying to put the pieces in place and find out
how we can best do it from a technical point of view. And as ‑‑ so basically we
are working towards incorporating the Saulteaux into our Word of the Day as we
speak.
4407 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Mmhmm. Tell me about this foundation, the Missinipi
Youth Foundation. It's created by
Missinipi?
4408 MS
CHARLES: Yes, it is and it was incorporated
in 1998. And what we did is we
incorporated Missinipi Youth Foundation and we offered scholarships to First
Nations/Aboriginal people to attend university, U of S, U of R,
4409 Now,
we also offer small local community radio stations. We offer training programs in their
respective communities and then they start their local radio stations at that
level, and then most of the time it's on our transmitter.
4410 However,
back to your question, yeah, we've incorporated that a while ago and we
continue to do that and we continue to offer scholarships, and that's part of
the Saturday night program that we offer to the youth as well.
4411 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So the money comes from
your profits? Is that the idea, and it's
put into the foundation?
4412 MR.
PROKOPIE: Yeah.
4413 THE
CHAIRPERSON: And then the scholarships
are given out?
4414 MR.
PROKOPIE: (Nods head yes.)
4415 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So to date, how many
scholarships in journalism or broadcasting have you given out?
4416 MS
CHARLES: Gees, I don't have ‑‑
4417 THE
CHAIRPERSON: And any number ‑‑
4418 MS
CHARLES: ‑‑ a number on that.
4419 THE
CHAIRPERSON: How many did you give out
last year?
4420 MS
CHARLES: Seven. Seven each year, and when we first started,
it was one or two or three. I haven't
kept track. However, I do believe
there's about eight of them with degrees now.
And then I have ‑‑ the three I offered this year will
be completing their degrees, so it's growing.
4421 THE
CHAIRPERSON: And do you give them a job
or does the APTN grab them?
4422 MS
CHARLES: It depends what broadcasting,
if they further into television or radio or print. However, there is some that come on board
with APTN. I'm also on the board there
as well. But, yeah, we've recruited some
of the students from that initiation.
4423 MR.
PROKOPIE: And that is probably our
ultimate goal and objective is our in‑house recruiting. There ‑‑ we find quite often
there is a lack of trained broadcasters with an Aboriginal background. And because we used to have, and still to
this day, continue to have some difficulty in securing professional talent, we
thought, well, let's maybe help create them by offering these scholarships to
post‑secondary students who are going into a communications/journalism
type field. That may give us a bit of a
pool to draw from down the years, so there was some very selfish background
behind that as well. We were hoping to
utilize that talent.
4424 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Mmhmm. Tell me, where are your offices? Are they in La Ronge or on the reserve, on
the band ‑‑
4425 MS
CHARLES: No, we're not on the
reserve. We're ‑‑ we
got a head office and the ‑‑ in La Ronge on
4426 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Because what ‑‑
I was thinking that part of the advantage could be that you'd be tax free if
you were on the reserve. That would be
an advantage for anybody in terms of recruitment, you know.
4427 MR.
PROKOPIE: It would, but it would
challenge our governance, we believe.
4428 THE
CHAIRPERSON: All right. I get your point, mmhmm.
4429 MR.
PROKOPIE: Again, our board is derived
from members at large of the community, and to put ourselves with ‑‑
within a First Nation or a community, even if the ‑‑ even if
it is a reality, the perception would be that ‑‑ where there's
an affiliation that perhaps we could be nudged or pushed into a certain
direction, so we've never aligned ourselves with any organization or group in
that manner.
4430 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Mmhmm, you and NCI. Now, MBC Television, I didn't realize there
was a television portion of it, and it tells stories and shows to ‑‑
you know, shows to maintain culture.
What do they actually do?
4431 MS
CHARLES: I'll just get ‑‑
give you a bit of history. Yateyaski(ph)
Productions was incorporated in 1980 ‑‑ 1998, and we produce
half‑hour documentaries by and for, about our people in northern
4432 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Right.
4433 MS
CHARLES: We air it. However, we downsized it to six and we get
our funding from Telefilm and other funders, so we're still doing it.
4434 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Now you, Ms Charles, are on the board of APTN
and so do you have some sort of a cooperative arrangement with them at all?
4435 MS
CHARLES: Yes, I am on the board. I am appointed to that board. We ‑‑ the ‑‑
there's ten organizations across northern
4436 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Mmhmm. And do you receive any ‑‑
anything from APTN in terms of being able to use the news they've gathered or
anything like that?
4437 MS
CHARLES: For regional news?
4438 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Mmhmm.
4439 MS
CHARLES: We've delivered some, but it's
not consistent. It has to be a
national ‑‑
4440 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Relevance.
4441 MS
CHARLES: ‑‑ relevance.
Most of the news is regional for us.
However, we do carry national, and I'm in the process of working on a
newscast from my office with a regional broadcaster, not a national, because we
already have the national.
4442 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And WAAB, Western Association of Aboriginal
Broadcasters, you're a member?
4443 MS
CHARLES: Yes, I am. I am a founding member. A couple years ago I was ‑‑
incorporated a national group. However,
I changed that to the Western Association of Aboriginal Broadcasters, whereas
the western groups come together and meet, which is NCI of Manitoba, MBC of
Saskatchewan, AMMSA of Alberta, and NBT of BC, and we have been working
together for the past year, face‑to‑face conference calls, and our
first live broadcast is this Friday on the Aboriginal Peoples Music Choice
Awards, so that's our first broadcast.
4444 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, so you're going to all
broadcast it? Is that the idea?
4445 MS
CHARLES: Yes ‑‑
4446 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay.
4447 MS
CHARLES: ‑‑ we will.
4448 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, mmhmm. And then you have plans for further sort of
cooperation and that sort of thing?
4449 MS
CHARLES: Yes. And the next live broadcast I would like to
do is the residential school early release payments or their first instalment
and the abuse that continues to happen with the elders, and none of it really
went to healing, so that's the second initial broad ‑‑ live
broadcast that I want to do.
4450 MR.
PROKOPIE: If I could just
interject? We are also currently, and
have been for probably the last three, four months anyway, been airing a
national top 30 Aboriginal countdown which is put together, produced, hosted by
NCI but is delivered to the four ‑‑ the other three groups
within WAAB, and we air that twice a week as well. So that is also a WAAB initiative.
4451 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So he's up to 30 now?
4452 MR.
PROKOPIE: Yes.
4453 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Last time I talked to him
it was 20. Now, as ‑‑ I
wanted to talk to you about your revenue.
As a percentage of the total of your revenue, how much does advertising
consist?
4454 MR.
PROKOPIE: Well, I would need to let Deb
address that one because also we do have fundraising, our bingo operations.
4455 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Your bingo, yeah, mmhmm.
4456 MR.
PROKOPIE: And I'm not sure exactly where
those percentages lie. Right now I'm
thinking that it's probably along the lines of 50 percent, give or take a
little bit. Fifty percent would be
advertising driven.
4457 THE
CHAIRPERSON: And the bingo is the other
50; is that ‑‑
4458 MR.
PROKOPIE: Yeah.
4459 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yeah. So you're self‑sustaining?
4460 MR.
PROKOPIE: No, the ‑‑
4461 THE
CHAIRPERSON: No?
4462 MR.
PROKOPIE: ‑‑ we do get ‑‑ there is some
national funding through NNBAP.
4463 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, mmhmm.
4464 MR.
PROKOPIE: But that's been on a steady
decline over a number of years, and we're certainly building towards 100
percent self‑sustenance. We think
that day is probably coming, and we've been building towards that for a while.
4465 If
Heritage
4466 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Mmhmm. Tell me about your transmitter coverage of
4467 MR.
PROKOPIE: No, we're not.
4468 THE
CHAIRPERSON: No. Are you Estevan way, Weyburn way?
4469 MR.
PROKOPIE: Carlyle/White Bear.
4470 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, right. You are, yeah. Okay.
4471 MR.
PROKOPIE: Carlyle/White Bear. We're currently also in Keeseekoose, but I'm
sure you've ‑‑
4472 THE
CHAIRPERSON: And those are all low
power, right?
4473 MR.
PROKOPIE: Right.
4474 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yeah. Now ‑‑
4475 MR.
PROKOPIE: And we have just been recently
approved for
4476 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yeah. North of Prince Albert is your coverage
equivalent to or better than CBC's?
4477 MR.
PROKOPIE: Better than.
4478 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Any idea of your share of
the market in
4479 MR.
PROKOPIE: No.
4480 THE
CHAIRPERSON: No. And is it fair to say that your numbers here,
your revenue projections, Mr. Prokopie ‑‑ Prokopie, is close
to what happened in
4481 MR.
PROKOPIE: That would be a more
aggressive pace than what has happened in
4482 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
4483 That's
all my questions. Commissioner
Pennefather would like to ask you some questions.
4484 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chair.
4485 Just
one question. I notice in your letter of
August 16 you talk about your ever expanding listening audience of over 100,000
in 60 locations and the Internet. Can
you give us a sense of the Internet and how many hits, what proportion of the
audience is coming through the website or the Internet?
4486 MR.
PROKOPIE: The portion of our audience
coming through the website would be very minimal. And again, I'm not the technical expert, but
I believe we have only 30 ports or something where only 30 people can be online
at any given time.
4487 So
as for our hits, I was quite surprised to hear that we are getting in excess of
5,000 hits a month. I've ‑‑
no, I think I'm actually very low. I
heard this number from our technical person not long ago, and we were all very
surprised at the number of hits we were getting on our website.
4488 I
don't necessarily believe they're all going to the streaming audio. We ‑‑ a lot of our news
stories get put onto our website.
There's a message board. There's
some interactive stuff there, so our website is being very ‑‑
it being hit very regularly, but the percentage of our audience coming from it,
I think, would be minimal.
4489 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Good distinction. And they were just all in one line, so that's
a very interesting distinction. Thank
you for that. Thank you, Madam Chair.
4490 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Vice‑chair Arpin...?
4491 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: You ‑‑ you've
been speaking about your youth programming and particularly what you do on the
Saturday and you were talking about the reaction in
4492 MR.
PROKOPIE: We haven't found the ruler yet
that we can lay down and measure that.
Again, just by the requests we get, just by the number of messages on
our message board on our website, we feel that that number is strong and
continues to grows ‑‑ to grow.
4493 Again,
everybody puts their pants on one leg at a time, so the music that the
Aboriginal youth are grooving to on Saturday night is also the music that the
non‑Aboriginal youth cannot access and find anywhere else, so we truly
believe we've got a good portion of them.
Unfortunately, like, I cannot give you any measurement.
4494 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: But you know that you're getting
a reaction from the audience and ‑‑
4495 MR.
PROKOPIE: We certainly know that, yes.
4496 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: And you could expect the same
thing here from ‑‑ in
4497 MR.
PROKOPIE: We're anticipating that fully,
yes.
4498 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Fully. Now, I've been looking at the financial
report that you have been filing with the CRTC in which you're saying that
you're probably somewhere 50/50 between local advertising and other revenues.
4499 Now,
our reports are showing only other revenues.
Is it the ‑‑ we're trying to measure the performance of
advertising in this country, and is it because you'd ‑‑ I
really didn't investigate the question before coming to the hearing on this
sort of material while you were talking, looking specifically at the information
that I have, which is ‑‑ and is it the way it's reported or is
it the ‑‑ a problem that you have in the reporting the ‑‑
to the CRTC not splitting what is advertising and what is other revenues? Or is it at the CRTC that we have a problem?
4500 I'm
just asking the question and looking at staff, if they also have an
answer. The ‑‑ are you
aware of the type of report that you're sending on an annual basis?
4501 MR.
PROKOPIE: No, I can't say I'm fully
aware. Deb may be able to answer this
more specifically. I think maybe what
may be happening is, within MBC we have a number of companies that all funnel
back to MBC. MBC is the mother ship. I represent an organization Tucho(ph)
Enterprises which is our advertising arm, our revenue arm. We're here on behalf of Natotawin
Broadcasting today, which actually gets the advertising that we sell on the air
and provides our programming.
4502 So,
you know, there's a number of revenue sources coming from the individual companies
that ultimately end up in MBC, and that's probably what you're seeing.
4503 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: And then they do distribute that
revenues to each of the units that MBC is operating?
4504 MR.
PROKOPIE: Correct.
4505 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: And that's why they will not
consider it as advertising but will put it in the other revenue category? That ‑‑
4506 MR.
PROKOPIE: Yeah.
4507 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Well, that satisfies my question.
4508 MR.
PROKOPIE: All right.
4509 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Thank you. Thank you, Mrs. Chair.
4510 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Commissioner Williams...?
4511 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm just reading through your information
files to learn a bit more about Natotawin Broadcasting. It says you own and operate over 70 broadcast
transmitters throughout the
4512 How
many people do you estimate or what percentage of the
4513 MR.
PROKOPIE: I think in the big picture,
you know, we're somewhere ‑‑ we truly believe ‑‑
in that 10 and 15 percent. Now, as you
move from region to region, that number could be as high as 95 percent.
4514 We
know that there are in excess of 70,000 people north of the NAD line. We feel ‑‑
4515 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: What is ‑‑
4516 MR.
PROKOPIE: ‑‑ that was ‑‑
4517 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: ‑‑ what is MAD?
Is it like the Mason‑Dickson line or something or ‑‑
4518 MR.
PROKOPIE: Oh, it's basically ‑‑
I believe it's called the north ‑‑ Northern Allowance District
which basically divides the province into two.
If you're from north of the line, there's certain concessions there for
you and such.
4519 Now,
north of the NAD line, we know that there is in excess of 70,000 people living
there. As we go across to our urban
centres, we know
4520 We
truly believe and feel that we are able to speak, and are speaking, to a large
majority of the First Nations people in
4521 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Okay. Missinipi, I guess that refers to the
4522 What
is Natotawin? What's the meaning of
Natotawin? Why did you choose that name?
4523 MS
CHARLES: Missinipi means big water in
Cree, and Natotawin means listen in Cree.
4524 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Listen?
4525 MS
CHARLES: Yeah.
4526 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Okay, I'll try to do my best.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4527 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: There's been some discussion
in this hearing on the economic state of the
4528 I
note in your information and ‑‑ and I'm a little bit confused
on your revenue side, as was Vice‑Chair Arpin, but that the PBIT that you
reported for 2005 was 26 percent. That's
your profit before interest and tax of 26 percent, compared to a 7 percent PBIT
for the
4529 Why
has your station become so popular and financially successful, given your
extensive serving area and the many transmitters and the associated higher
costs of serving so many communities?
Why do you think that is the case that you can operate so profitably
being so widespread and serving so many?
4530 MR.
PROKOPIE: Well, I think first we should
take that as a compliment.
4531 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
4532 MR.
PROKOPIE: We run a tight ship. We don't have bodies just sitting around
waiting for something to do. We're very
multi‑tasking. We have people that
wear many hats. We have a very strong
controller and a very strong board who ensures that our fiscal responsibility
is something that is watched consistently.
4533 I
don't know if I can add much more to that other than it's something that we pay
attention to because, as I said earlier, we don't know if the few dollars that
we currently get through Heritage Canada are going to be available to us down
the road, and we need ensure that we have money to put up new transmitters in
communities when requested. We have
money to help train a community radio station, so it's just ‑‑
it's good management, I believe.
4534 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: What is your opinion of the economic
state of the
4535 MR.
PROKOPIE: I guess it depends on who you
listen to over the last couple days would maybe determine what one really
believes. I think
4536 You
know, as for the actual health of the market of
4537 As
for
4538 So
that's sort of the best uneducated answer I can give you is ‑‑
you know, I don't believe things are always as bad as we're led on to
believe ‑‑ keeping in mind we are in Saskatchewan, and that's
the nature of our beast.
4539 So,
you know, I think through diligence and through providing the service that
people want and providing good value in what you're presenting to them, the
economics will take care of themselves providing that, you know, you're not greedy
and don't have visions of, you know, making big money overnight.
4540 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Earlier this morning you heard
AVR's eloquent presentation stressing the need for a national Aboriginal
broadcaster, and they also indicated that they were supportive of your efforts
throughout
4541 Do
you think a national Aboriginal network would provide value to Saskatchewan
Aboriginals similar to that provided by mainstream Canadian national networks,
like CBC, to all Canadians? Is there
value in a national network, I guess is the question?
4542 MR.
PROKOPIE: I'm not sure if I see the
value, and I try not to look at this through rose‑coloured glasses or
with blinders on. I'm not sure what the
value would be. I think, you know, we
keep hearing in this day and age that traditional radio is in trouble because
of the Internet and because of satellite radio and because of this and this and
this.
4543 And
I believe that the groups that have spoken to you over the last couple of days
are saying there is a future in radio, and that's because we can still provide
the local weather. We can still talk
about the community event that's happening down the street. We still cover stories that have relevance to
our everyday lives, and I think ultimately that's where our strength lies and
perhaps maybe where some of the strength would be lost in a national network.
4544 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: In your opinion, are the
interests of rural and herbal ‑‑ rural and urban Aboriginals
identical or are there some different interests given the different
environments that they live in, in smaller and larger communities and in
communities where they may be a dominant demographic in the population and in
others where there may be a minority?
Are there differences?
4545 MR.
PROKOPIE: There definitely are some
differences and as, you know, I had mentioned earlier, quite often when you
move into an urban setting, a lot of the culture you grew up with is lost.
4546 But
also when it comes to our programming, you ‑‑ we talked about
MBC setting up at a trappers festival to provide programming. Well, I can tell you there probably isn't a
lot of people in Regina that make their living via the trap line anymore, so
there is, you know, a cultural difference there.
4547 Commercial
fishing, you know, we cover stories that pertain to commercial fishers and how
their livelihoods are being affected on a daily basis. Again, that's not a new story that perhaps
has a lot of relevance to an urban Aboriginal or non‑Aboriginal here in
4548 And
I was asked earlier about the powwow trail.
You know, that is something that is very strong here in the south, so we
do acknowledge the difference. And as
time goes on and where we see the need is, we will certainly fill that need.
4549 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Given the projected increase
in
4550 MR.
PROKOPIE: I'm sure that they may, but I
also believe they appreciate and respect the trusted, and trust is something
that needs to be earned not only in Aboriginal country, but across all
cultures. Trust is something that needs
to be earned.
4551 And,
you know, we really feel that we've addressed that trust issue and because
people know that when they tune into MBC, they are getting the information as
it was meant to be put out there and they are getting the information in a way
that makes them feel good about what they're hearing, whether it be through
their language or knowing that it's an Aboriginal broadcaster giving them that
story.
4552 You
know, I believe that that's ultimately what they will keep coming back to is
something that feels good, makes them feel warm inside, and reminds them of
home.
4553 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Many
4554 MR.
PROKOPIE: No, we don't see that as
a ‑‑ as an immediate need.
If the need's out there, you know, we do have the Internet and we also
have our cousins in neighbouring provinces that we feel are doing a very good
job with what they do, whether it's AMMSA Alberta, NCI in
4555 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: No, no, I was thinking more
along the lines of a national broadcaster fulfilling that role and you helping
input to it.
4556 MR.
PROKOPIE: Well, I mean ‑‑
I think that's sort of what WAAB is looking at.
You know, I don't know if we'll actually go on the air as a national
broadcaster, but we certainly share ideas and information and some programming
so ‑‑ and I think the creation of WAAB was somewhat
established to address this particular situation and what you're asking.
4557 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Okay. If the Commission approved your application
and also approved AVR's application, can you see synergies and opportunities to
work together to better serve the Aboriginal communities of
4558 MR.
PROKOPIE: Well, I think, you know, I
could answer that question based on what I believe, but I ‑‑
what I really believe, what would need to happen is a coming together of the
minds. We have never been approached by
AVR to talk about perhaps creating some synergy amongst the two of us.
4559 I
know some of the other groups across
4560 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Okay, thank you very
much. That's my questions to Mr.
Prokopie.
4561 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Charles, Mr. Prokopie ‑‑
I'm pronouncing that right?
4562 MR.
PROKOPIE: Prokopie.
4563 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Prokopie. You have now two minutes to sum up for us.
4564 MS
CHARLES: Okay. Well, again thank you for giving me the
opportunity to be here to present my application. Given the issues that we presented here
today, I respectfully ask the Commission to approve my licence.
4565 And
each and every day when we go to work we have to keep in mind our indigenous roots
of who we are, what we're about, by/for our ‑‑ with Aboriginal
people, and that's what I do each and every day. And I do it for my people and my languages
and the different dialects in each and every language and I continue to ‑‑
will work towards the southern ‑‑ incorporating the southern
languages into the northern languages so we, as people, can come together and
connect with each other again and with the land again.
4566 Thank
you.
4567 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
4568 Madam
Secretary, I don't ‑‑ I'm hoping we could get through Phase II
in ‑‑ yeah, we could at least start working on Phase II.
4569 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
4570 Therefore,
this completes Phase I of consideration of items 10 to 16. We can now proceed to Phase II, as indicated
by the Chair, in which applicants will appear or can appear, if they wish, in
the same order to intervene on competing applications.
4571 We've
been informed that Newcap Inc. will not appear in this phase.
4572 I
would now call on Touch Canada Broadcasting to come forward if they wish to
intervene on competing applications.
‑‑‑ Pause
4573 THE
SECRETARY: I gather they're not
appearing.
4574 Therefore,
Radio CJVR Ltd. are the next applicant to appear if they wish.
‑‑‑ Pause
4575 THE
SECRETARY: They are not appearing either. We will continue with the Aboriginal Voices
Radio.
‑‑‑ Pause
4576 THE
SECRETARY: I've been informed that they
will not appear.
4577 And
finally, Natotawin Broadcasting can come back if they wish to intervene on
competing applications.
‑‑‑ Pause
4578 THE
SECRETARY: And they choose not to, therefore, Mrs.
Chair, this completes Phase II of the process.
4579 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Actually, Madam Secretary,
it doesn't because the list is missing Standard. So could you please ‑‑
4580 THE
SECRETARY: You are quite correct.
4581 THE
CHAIRPERSON: So could you call Standard?
4582 THE
SECRETARY: I stand corrected. Standard Radio may come forward if they wish
to intervene on competing applications.
‑‑‑ Pause
4583 THE
SECRETARY: And I think this completes the list, Mrs.
Chair.
4584 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Then we may as well proceed
to Phase III.
4585 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you.
4586 Phase
III of the process is where other parties appear in the order set out in the agenda
to present their intervention.
4587 I
will now call on the first appearing intervener, Harvard Broadcasting, to come
forward for their presentation.
‑‑‑ Pause
4588 THE
SECRETARY: Mrs. Chair, we will go to the
next appearing intervener which is CIRPA.
If they are present, if they would come forward to present their
intervention?
4589 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: They said that they were only to
appear once.
4590 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Vice‑Chair.
4591 So
therefore, we will proceed to the following intervention which is a panel of
two interveners, Rawlco Radio Ltd. and Communications Management Inc. If they could come forward for your ‑‑
the presentation of your intervention?
‑‑‑ Pause
4592 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Ladies and gentlemen, just
for information, we will be breaking at 12:30 as ‑‑ well,
after you've finished your presentation, as there is a conference call so ‑‑
and then we will be coming back at 1:30 with questions from the panel of this
panel.
4593 Madam
Secretary...?
4594 THE
SECRETARY: I would ask that you
introduce yourselves before you begin, and you will have ‑‑
just a moment ‑‑ 15 minutes for your presentation.
4595 Thank
you.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
4596 MS
LEYLAND: Thank you.
4597 Good
afternoon, Madam Chair, Ms Cram, Commissioners Williams, Cugini, Arpin and
Pennefather.
4598 Before
we begin our presentation today, I'd like to introduce our Rawlco Radio
team. On October 18th, two weeks ago, we
at Rawlco celebrated our 60th anniversary.
Rawlco was started by Gordon and Doug's father, E.A. Rawlinson, with the
purchase in 1946 of CKBI Radio in
4599 After
60 years of serving this great province, we know
4600 Let
me introduce our group to you. My name
is Pam Leyland. I'm president of Rawlco
Radio. I got my start in radio as a
newsperson, then became a news director, a program director, a general manager,
and now president ‑‑ all with Rawlco over the last 25 years.
4601 On
my right is our CEO, Gordon Rawlinson.
One of his favourite sayings is that he's been in radio all his life,
all the way back to the early days in
4602 Next
to Gord is Ken Goldstein of Communications Management Inc. On my left is Doug Pringle. Doug is a legendary programmer and
musicologist. Doug knows a lot about all
kinds of music, and his roots go back to when he started
4603 If
you have any questions about the music formats in
4604 Next
to Doug is Kristy Werner. Kristy is the
program director for Z99 here in
4605 Behind
me and to my right is Doug Rawlinson.
Gordon and Doug have been partners for about 35 years and have worked
very hard together to make Rawlco a great radio company.
4606 To
Doug's left is Karen Mains. Karen is the
person that makes our operation in
4607 On
Karen's left is Tom Newton. Tom is the
manager of our three radio stations here in
4608 Madam
Chair, let me begin by welcoming the Commission and staff to
4609 For
sociologists,
4610 Part
of the answer is that human beings are very adaptable. They adapt to the environment they find
themselves in. Further, they'll work
very hard to turn what outsiders might consider to be difficult circumstances
into something positive. This is certainly
what the people of
4611 First,
it must be admitted that many people do leave
4612 All
of these things came through to me again when I read the more than 200 letters
submitted as part of our intervention.
There's a sense in these letters that making
4613 A
lot of what is said flies in the face of conventional wisdom. Usually if you offer people what, at least on
the surface, appears to be something for nothing, they're going to say,
"Of course I'll take it. Why
not?" In fact "why not"
is the focus of almost all of the letters.
4614 The
leaders of community organizations have many concerns about the possibility of
licensing additional radio stations in
4615 As
Eileen Janz, manager of marketing for the Saskatchewan Science Centre says,
"Adding additional licences to this diluted market will impact our ability
to reach radio listeners."
4616 They
also fear that they will lose the close relationships they have with the existing
stations, ones that have been developed over many years.
4617 Erin
Marchuk at the Arthritis Society comments, "We value the support we
receive and feel that the addition of more radio stations will jeopardize the
relationships we've established."
4618 Something
they count on is easy access to the stations for interviews when they want to
publicize their events or fundraising campaigns.
4619 As
Robyn Sullivan with the Regina Day Committee notes, "The Regina radio stations
have always been quick to jump on board with generous donations of both on‑air
advertising and interviews."
4620 Finally,
some organization, like the Regina Hospitals Foundation, worry that the station
sponsored fundraising campaigns will be less effective in a more fragmented
radio environment.
4621 Conventional
wisdom would also suggest that local businesses would welcome more radio
stations. The letters show that this is
not the case at all. For local
retailers, more stations mean more fragmentation which will result in higher
advertising costs and diminished impact.
4622 Jamie
York at Island Inkjet states, "With the state of our
4623 They
also worry that more stations will change the close relationship they have with
their advertising consultants who help them grow their businesses.
4624 Maxine
Drelier of Travel Masters makes this point, "The radio station I deal with
gives me great advice and service and I know my rep well."
4625 Finally,
they don't like the idea of more station salespeople taking up their valuable
time.
4626 Dennis
Marvin at Clarica says succinctly, "I do not want to spend further dollars
or deal with more radio reps calling on me."
4627 The
concerns expressed in these letters are not superficial concerns. In reading them, one can feel the
sincerity. The writers honestly feel
that there is a special relationship between themselves and the radio stations,
and they don't want to lose it.
4628 They're
definitely worried that the CRTC will make decisions that will have a real
detrimental impact on their organization or businesses.
4629 At
the very heart of the matter is the reason people choose to live in
4630 Many
work very hard to make
4631 We
commissioned a survey of 400 radio listeners to try to answer this
question. As the graphic shows, they're
quite happy with their local radio service.
A high percentage indicated they were satisfied that they can get the
local news and community information they need, and that the stations do a good
job covering local events. They
recognize that the stations support Canadian artists and play their music. Overall, there was a high level of
satisfaction with local radio in
4632 Special
mention must be made to the response to the question, "Can you listen to
the music you like when you want to listen to it?" The Internet, iPod, satellite radio and other
forms of music distribution are changing the way people listen to music.
4633 While
all the major music formats are available in
4634 The
role of Rawlco Radio in
4635 In
this light, let's take a look at what Rawlco Radio has accomplished. Crazy is the term experienced broadcasters
were using when Rawlco introduced News Talk eight years ago. Small cities like
4636 And
today News Talk has become absolutely essential to life in
4637 MR.
PRINGLE: While doing an application for
a new FM station in
4638 Now,
when looking at this picture, we came to realize that there was something
wrong. We were doing Project 10K20 in
Edmonton and Calgary because of CTD commitments, but in Saskatchewan, our home
province, the need was perhaps even greater, so we decided to rectify the
situation and announced its availability on our Saskatchewan radio
stations. The response was quite
overwhelming. More than 200 applications
were received. We ended up approving 29
of the applications and the resulting CDs are displayed on the board beside me
there.
4639 One
of the major benefits of Project 10K20 in
4640 MS
LEYLAND: Community involvement,
community service and super‑serving our listeners is the way we do
radio. The submitted letters tell the
story again and again. Outside
recognition of our efforts can be seen in the 27 CAB nominations and awards our
stations have received since 2000. These
award‑winning programs are just the tip of the iceberg. Every day, and in almost every program, we're
doing things to support the community and local community organizations. It's the
4641 Madam
Chair, Members of the Commission, if there's one thought I can leave you with
in our intervention it is this:
4642 While
we are all obsessed with trying to get the population over that elusive 1
million mark, the fact is we live here because we like it just the way it
is. We found that there are many
benefits and advantages to living in cities with little growth.
4643 Of
necessity, the people of
4644 Our
radio revenues are not growing in
4645 We
believe the letters and the survey results deliver a clear message: The people of
4646 For
a city of its size,
4647 Thank
you. This completes our
intervention. Ken...?
4648 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Actually, if I can stop you
right now and we will adjourn and then, Mr. Goldstein, you can give your brief
presentation after lunch. 12:30.
4649 MS
LEYLAND: Thank you.
4650 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Not 12:30.
Yeah, so you've got one second for lunch. No, 1:30.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing
at 1230 / Suspension à 1230
‑‑‑ Upon resuming
at 1330 / Reprise à 1330
4651 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Order. I just wanted to say one thing about Ms
Leyland's comments about people moving to
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4652 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary...?
4653 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
4654 We
will continue with the intervention of CMI, Communications Management Inc. Mr. Goldstein...?
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
4655 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Thank you, Madam Chair,
Commissioners.
4656 In
this proceeding from an economic perspective, there is essentially one
fundamental question that needs to be addressed: Do the economic indicators tell us that the
market is capable of supporting a new commercial radio station?
4657 The
report we submitted deals in detail with that question. As you will have seen in our report, we tied
our analysis very closely to the patterns of licensing and the comments the
Commission made with respect to four other metro markets in which the
Commission has considered new radio licences in the recent past; Kitchener,
Halifax, Calgary and Quebec City.
4658 And
we chose this methodology because of something the Commission itself said in
its decision of August 10th, 2006, on the licensing of new radio stations in
4659 So
we constructed a comparison of four markets in which licences have been granted
and compared
4660 The
results are summarized in our report and the results do indeed tell us that the
economic indicators for the
4661 Let
me briefly review a number of the key indicators. First, population. The Conference Board is projecting that
4662 I
noted that some of the applicants have made references to data from the
Financial Post Canadian Demographics.
Here is what that source says about
4663 Second,
GDP. The Conference Board is predicting
that real GDP growth rates for
4664 For
4665 Third,
retail sales. We heard at least one
applicant claim that
4666 If
we focus on
4667 The
recent reduction in the provincial sales tax from 7 percent to 5 percent may
have a modest short‑term effect, but that effect is unlikely to continue
into the first years of a radio station in this market.
4668 Fourth,
radio revenues. From 1996 to 2003,
private radio revenues in
4669 Fifth,
radio profitability. We have heard a
number of statistics from applicants that purport to paint a rosy picture of
revenues in the Regina market, but we have not heard any applicant deal with
the other key factor, profitability, other than to dismiss its importance. But the numbers are dramatic.
4670 Across
4671 Can
revenue growth be separated from profitability?
Is one more important than the other?
Of course not. Both are
important. And the data tells us that
after a brief growth spurt, radio revenues in
4672 When
we consider all of the factors together, we believe they deliver a single
powerful message; the economic indicators do not support the licensing of any
new commercial radio stations in
4673 Thank
you, I would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.
4674 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Commissioner Cugini...?
4675 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Good afternoon, Ms Leyland and
your panel. Firstly, I'd like to
apologize for the quality of my voice.
The cold bug has bit me, but I now have good drugs, so hopefully we'll
get through this.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4676 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: I just have a couple of
questions for you, just to probe a little bit further into your comments
earlier today. I'm not sure if you were
here physically in the room when Newcap presented their application for
4677 They
compared the number of radio stations to the population in
4678 I
was wondering if I could get your comments and your reaction?
4679 MS
LEYLAND: Certainly. I'll ask Mr. Goldstein to comment on that.
4680 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: I think that those kind of
comparisons really don't tell us very much.
First of all, you could pick other markets. You could pick
4681 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Which you did in your report.
4682 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Exactly.
4683 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: So ‑‑
4684 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: And show precisely the
opposite, that you could then use that to say, "Oh, look at the size here. Look at the average number of people per
station here. Therefore, there are too
many stations in the market.
4685 So
I think that, as a first cut, I would say that I'm not sure that's particularly
meaningful. The part that bothers me,
though, most about it is that one ‑‑ and by the way, I should
say as an aside, I think the
4686 But
leaving that aside, the ‑‑ you compare us with
4687 In
our report, for example, we noted that you have a situation in Regina and
Saskatoon where you have very high levels of spending on programming because
they have perfected what I think is a wonderful community model in these two
markets.
4688 Now,
if that market with the different average of population is now all of a sudden
something we're holding up as a beacon to be emulated, should we go to the
program spending levels of that market?
Should we go to the profitability levels of that market? Should we go to the staffing levels of that
market?
4689 So
to simply say there are X number of people per station doesn't really tell the
story.
4690 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: And if ‑‑ I'd
like to ask you, Mr. Goldstein, why it is that you included that same
comparison in your study?
4691 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Oh, I conclude ‑‑
include it only to show that you could pick numbers and show precisely the
opposite. I think I could probably find
the words, but I think I probably said I don't think these are very meaningful
and I then went on to say, "Let's do a more sophisticated
analysis." I believe there's
actually a subhead in my study talking about a more sophisticated analysis.
4692 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you.
4693 Ms
Leyland, you may have heard us ask just about every applicant in these
proceedings what are the factors?
Profitability we recognize is but one, but what are the factors that we,
as a Commission, need to examine in order to determine whether or not a market
can sustain another entrant?
4694 I
would like to ask you what are the factors you look at and, if you can, perhaps
even prioritize what those factors are when you want to enter, as Rawlco, into
a new market.
4695 MS
LEYLAND: I think one of the factors
that ‑‑
4696 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: I'm sorry, I can't hear you.
4697 MS
LEYLAND: Oh, I'm sorry. I think one of the factors that you might
consider is music and the music that's presently offered in the community and
the other formats that the applicants might want to make available. I'd like to ask Doug to comment on the music
formats that are in
4698 MR.
PRINGLE: So if I could paint a brief
picture of the formatic landscape in
4699 If
you take the pop area, you have Lite who is an AC station catering to more the
upper demographic of the pop audience.
And you have Z99 which caters more to the lower demographic. So essentially upper and lower is covered in
the pop side.
4700 If
you take rock, you have a classic rock station, a pure classic rock station,
Jack, which was ‑‑ as was mentioned by an earlier applicant
although it has the name and the personality of the Jack format, it doesn't
actually have the format. It's a pure
classic rock station.
4701 And
then you have a mass appeal rock station, the Wolf that is geared younger, but
they too play 40 percent classic rock.
Then you go to country. We have
two country stations. We have an AM country
station and we have Country 100 which comes in from
4702 So
I've got to be honest, when I first heard a call for the two markets, I was
very curious as to what the mainstream broadcasters would come up with in terms
of adding variety and musical diversity to the market and I was anticipating
there'd be some pretty interesting category 3 submissions, so I was quite
surprised actually that there were actually no category 3 submissions. In fact, what was offered were just
variations of what already existed in the marketplace.
4703 So
just to quickly run through. If you look
at classic hits, well, there's already a station in the market that actually
not only plays classic hits and has done for over 15 years, but has classic
hits in their slogan. Z99's slogan is,
"Classic Hits and Today's Best Music".
4704 In
addition to that, you'll find classic hits on Lite and you'll also find classic
hits on Jack, so that format ‑‑ you know, that music is
extremely well covered off.
4705 I
was also interested to hear that there were no classic rock stations in this
marketplace. In actual fact, Jack is
pure classic rock, and as I mentioned Wolf plays 40 percent classic rock. To my knowledge, there's no market anywhere
that supports three classic rock stations, so I don't really see where they
would fit in.
4706 The
submission for oldies was interesting.
Oldies has some challenges. As
you probably know, in
4707 WCBS
FM, they recently abandoned the format for a younger gold format, a format
based in the '80s. And of course in
4708 The
Canadian music from the '60s and '70s is ‑‑ you know, simply
because there's not much great Canadian music from that era, it's duplicated on
both the classic rock format and the oldies format. I'm talking about BTO, the Guess Who, Neil Young. All those guys, they're duplicated. So I question how much of a hole, even if you
could do it, there is for oldies in the market.
4709 And
then the new country FM application, there already is a new country FM signal
available to anybody who would like to listen to it in
4710 So
as I look at what the market already has, which essentially has all the major
formats covered in multiple, and then I look at what's being offered, I don't
really see where there's much musical diversity. I mean there's ‑‑ yes, it is
versions of what is there, but I don't see any huge musical diversity being
offered.
4711 MR.
RAWLINSON: Can I throw in one other
comment as to what factors to look at? I
think that also it's worthwhile to take a look at what the existing radio
stations are doing. Are they providing
good service or not? Are they do ‑‑
doing a good job of serving their community?
Are they serving them well? Are
they running more than just jukeboxes or are they running real radio stations,
real full‑service radio stations?
I think that's a factor to be considered, and I won't belabour that
point, but I think that's a factor too.
4712 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you. Thank you very much. Madam Chair, those are all my questions.
4713 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
4714 Commissioner
Pennefather...?
4715 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: I have some questions for
you, Mr. Goldstein, and I'll go back to the point that my colleague,
Commissioner Cugini, raised regarding the comparison with other markets.
4716 Now,
I'm in your report and I have to say that you did include that as one of the
economic indicators. You go on to
discuss a more sophisticated set of comparisons with a different city
comparison, but the question she asked you in reference to the comments from
Newcap was really in relation to your choice to use comparisons with other
metropolitan markets on page 4 as one of the indicators. And I do say indicators, so you would ‑‑
we agree that there are a number of indicators that one uses.
4717 So
on that where you, yourself, at page 4, have noted that one of the indicators
that can be used is a comparison with other markets in terms of population, in
your view what would be your estimate of the minimum population required to
support a commercial radio station?
4718 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Let me answer the first thing
first by actually, if I may, read into the record what I said?
4719 I
said some of the applications in this proceeding have included comparisons
among
4720 As
far as asking the question of what is the minimum population you need to
support a radio station, there is no answer.
And the reason there is no answer because it's not only the number of
people, but it's where they're located.
4721 The
minimum population in
4722 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: So you agree though it
could be part of the mix of the discussions even though one would want to take
a more sophisticated approach to it? It
still could be an indicator among others, but a less important one in your
view?
4723 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: It's about the least
important one. I mean if you look at the
amount spent on programming as a measure of the community involvement, if you
look at the profitability, if you look at the trends, it also depends what
direction you're moving in. I consider
it a highly simplistic kind of an indicator.
4724 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
4725 Well,
you will accept that just in the way this ‑‑ it is presented,
I assumed that it was one of the indicators that you hoped to discuss. And you go on to is ‑‑ to a
more elaborate approach to that based on our decisions. Let me take you to another indicator, which
is page 6, your figures ‑‑ 6 and 7, your figures 3 and 4.
4726 And
as I understand it, these figures are an estimate of program spending as a
percentage of revenue, and also there's another column on PBIT as percentage of
revenue and private radio. And I'm looking
at the percentage of program expenditures, a comparison of
4727 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: That is correct.
4728 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Now, can you explain
why ‑‑ what your rationale for maintaining that the Commission
should refrain from licensing in markets ‑‑ in these markets
in order to enable incumbents to maintain these clearly above average expenses
and staffing levels?
4729 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Well, I think that there's a
short answer and there's a longer answer.
The short answer is, is if you fragment the market and drive the PBIT
levels down, they won't be able to afford to maintain the same levels of
program expenditure and community service.
4730 But
I think this is actually a window into a very important, much larger discussion
that we should be having here and we should be having in lots of places, and that
is is that the stations in this province ‑‑ particularly in
4731 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Well, I think if we kept
it, as you said earlier from ‑‑ in your remarks from an
economic perspective, if we keep it to that, you would accept though those
higher expenses is a factor we should take into consideration when looking at
profitability levels?
4732 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Well, I want ‑‑
I'm ‑‑ there is another important point to be added, and that
is this, that the ‑‑ we've heard about the threat to radio,
some of which is beginning to be felt, some of which is a little over the
horizon from satellite and Internet and iPod and whatever. The answer to that threat is precisely the
kind of local emphasis that these stations are doing today.
4733 If
you fragment the market, if you force them away from that, if you build them
more into the jukebox model, you'll start a downward spiral.
4734 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Well, you chose to compare
the Canadian average to
4735 So
relative to the economic question is this comparison which allows us to see a
higher level of programming expenditures in
4736 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Yes.
4737 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Okay. Figure 10 in your ‑‑ I just
wanted to be sure I read it right. In
fact, staff pointed out to me that I'd probably misinterpreted it first
round. Just to be sure we do understand
it, figure 10 again is a comparison, and when we look at
4738 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: That is correct. The bar on the left, the grey bar ‑‑
if yours printed the same as mine did?
4739 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Yes, it did somewhat.
4740 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: The grey bar shows the
average PBIT for the five years indicated and the darker bar to the right of it
in each case shows the difference with the Canadian average.
4741 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
4742 It ‑‑
I first read that that was the PBIT, and it's considerably ‑‑
you'd say today it's 5 percent whether we agree with that or not, or whether
there are different interpretations of that.
It certainly is not a minus at this stage.
4743 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: I ‑‑
4744 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Which I had misunderstood
this figure.
4745 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: No, no, no, and nor was it
intended to say it was a minus.
The ‑‑ this, remember, is a five‑year
average. As you're aware, the Commission
used to do a radio market report and it used five‑year averages. And so in the spirit of that, I thought it to
be fair ‑‑
4746 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Okay.
4747 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: ‑‑ to use
five‑year averages. We know the
numbers because they were placed on the record before lunch this morning
so ‑‑
4748 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: I wondered also, finally,
if you had any comment ‑‑ my colleague noted the analysis done
by Newcap concerning population.
Standard also tabled another interpretation looking at retail sales and
compared to population then, the provinces are ranked on a per capita radio
sales and, in this sense,
4749 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Yes, I do. I think, first of all, you have a situation
here where we have a lot of small markets and because you have small population
bases, that will tend to produce a higher per capita figure. But I thinking ‑‑ think in
gaining revenue, the reason I come back to profitability, there's a cost of
revenue. There's a cost; you have to
spend something to get revenue.
4750 And
because you're dealing with small units, you don't have the same economy of
scale that you'll have in
4751 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Okay, thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.
4752 MR.
RAWLINSON: Commissioner Pennefather,
could I just comment on the question of expenses? We do run high expense radio stations. We have a number of long‑term
employees. We have many great
employees. We do, as mentioned, terrific
community programming. We also do some
Aboriginal programming. Running news
talk stations is a very expensive thing.
It also takes a huge amount of management time to run news talk
stations. It's almost like it's a
different business than running music stations and ‑‑ as we've
discovered.
4753 Also
to generate the revenues that we do, which I think we also generate significant
revenues at our radio stations, takes strong sales management, strong
salespeople, and a fair amount of management time on that too. So that the ‑‑ that's just
what we do, and we think that the communities are way better served with that
type of radio station than a lean, mean type approach. So that explains it.
4754 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Vice‑Chair Arpin...?
4755 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Thank you.
4756 You
just said that you're doing Aboriginal programming. Are you doing any Aboriginal programming here
in
4757 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Sorry, not in Aboriginal
language.
4758 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: But ‑‑ yes, but
catering to the Aboriginal population?
4759 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Yeah, we produce a one‑hour
show that runs on all of our AM stations in
4760 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: The ‑‑ I have a
few questions but I will have to be quiet.
I'm playing with some confidential information so I need to be ‑‑
my questions may not be as clear as one could ‑‑ will have
liked. But you're just saying that ‑‑
and I'm looking at aggregate numbers for the two companies that are working
here in this market, at least to ‑‑ as a starter.
4761 You
did mention that the ‑‑ you have a good base of employees that
you have kept growing, but I notice that from the year 2002 to the year 2005
the market had a decline of close to 15 employees altogether so ‑‑
or rather ‑‑ so I think you have ‑‑ you have
had to ‑‑ the market had ‑‑ the players in
the market have had to look in making some decisions because I know ‑‑
notice also that, here, 2002 was not a beautiful year. The PBITs were negative for that year, so
obviously some decisions had to be made and ‑‑ but the decline
in the number of employees has been constant.
If it wasn't a drop of 15, it was ‑‑ started by 7, then
2 others and then 5 others and ‑‑ just in the year 2005.
4762 If
you are saying that you're ‑‑ because ‑‑ I'm
asking the question because you said that at Rawlco you can ‑‑
you've maintained ‑‑ even in difficult times you maintained
the base of the ‑‑ of your employees. Does that mean it's the competitor that
has ‑‑ decrees its number of employees? And I will ask them also a very similar
question.
4763 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: I don't have the statistics
in front of me for that, but it's not my understanding that we have decreased
them. And I've ‑‑ quite
frankly, I'm not sure that they have either, so I think that may be just a difference
in the way it was filed or something. I
don't know, but I don't believe that we've decreased the number of employees
that we have. I can think of several
areas where we've increased.
4764 MS
LEYLAND: Yeah, I would echo that from, you
know, practical running of radio stations' point of view, that we have
increased. And Gord often will speak to
me about the fact that we're adding employees in additional areas to do the new
things that we want to do.
4765 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: I see. The ‑‑ we've been made aware
that some corporate expenses have been applied to the station for ‑‑
and those corporate expenses obviously do increase the expense line of the
operation of the organization, shall it be a factor that we keep in mind in
calculating the PBIT? We ‑‑
we're to ‑‑ or should we deduct the ‑‑ in re‑establishing
the PBITs, should we deduct the corporate expense?
4766 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Mr. Arpin, we are a small
company, and it would seem to us that corporate expenses have to be charged
somewhere. So, you know, when you file
your CRTC returns, there isn't a separate category for corporate expense and
then for each individual radio station.
They have to be allocated amongst your radio stations.
4767 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: But they've been allocate ‑‑
to my knowledge, they have not been allocated to all of your radio
stations. You've chosen some markets.
4768 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: That's not ‑‑
that ‑‑ they have been allocated to all radio stations in what
we consider to be a reasonable manner, yes, all radio stations.
4769 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Okay. Mr. Goldstein, in your conclusions you said
that, based on your evaluation, no radio station ‑‑ no
new ‑‑ or you're saying no new commercial radio station into
the regional ‑‑ Regina market should be approved. Will you consider the two Aboriginal
applicants that we heard this morning to be a commercial player? Because they are looking to ‑‑
to raise advertising revenues, and we surely heard clearly some numbers from
Natotawin and in the other case, they are contemplating more or less
sponsorship rather than straight advertising.
4770 MS
LEYLAND: No, we are fine with those
applications.
4771 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: You're fine with those two
applications?
4772 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: As am I.
4773 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Okay. No, but I know that you were ‑‑
I was asking myself, you were considering them as commercial because they
do ‑‑ they are contemplating advertising revenues?
4774 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: No, they ‑‑
first of all, obviously at the time I wrote that, I was looking at their
applications as filed, but I don't think that anything they've said would tilt
things so far as to cause a problem.
4775 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Thank you very much. Those were my questions.
4776 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Williams...?
4777 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Good afternoon, Mr. Rawlinson,
Ms Leyland and Mr. Goldstein and panelists.
Mr. Goldstein, I'm a little bit confused and maybe you can help me. Are you under a retainer arrangement with
Rawlco or any other applicant here?
4778 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: I am not under retainer.
4779 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Are you getting paid in any
way?
4780 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Oh, I'm absolutely getting
paid of course.
4781 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Yeah, okay.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4782 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: And I ‑‑
4783 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: I was just trying to ‑‑
4784 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Absolutely, and ‑‑
4785 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: ‑‑ trying to figure out if you were here as a
volunteer or if somebody hired you.
4786 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: ‑‑ and handsomely so.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4787 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: But this was made very clear
in our letter of intervention and ‑‑
4788 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
4789 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: ‑‑ and in the report.
4790 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: I just wanted to clarify that.
4791 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Absolutely.
4792 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Yeah, I just ‑‑
why I wanted to know is that you answered separately to the last question of
Vice‑Chair Arpin. You said,
"As am I", which I kind of said, oh, gees maybe he is here a little
independent other than what I've heard earlier.
Okay.
4793 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: We may have hired Ken, but he
still has his own opinions.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
4794 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Yeah, okay. Well, Mr. Goldstein, you're an economist, and
I'm very far from an economist. I'm a
small businessman and a regulator, I guess.
4795 I
read in today's paper at lunch, you may not have ‑‑ may or may
not have read the same article, but the CIBC World Markets issued an economic
report stating that the economic boom in Saskatchewan leads the country second
only to Alberta. And this information
was published in today's local newspaper, and the article further states that
the economic boom is primarily resource based, the funds flowing to government
coffers of such a current projected volume that the Saskatchewan Government has
reduced provincial sales tax by more than 25 percent.
4796 So
I'm wondering, in your opinion as an economist, do you think that the growth
opportunities for
4797 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: I have the article here.
4798 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Okay, good. Yeah.
4799 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: I also saw it. I would point out that the projection, first
of all ‑‑ actually, if you notice, I've used the Conference
Board as my going forward.
4800 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
4801 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: The projection in CIBC for
2006 is actually a little lower than the Conference Board one that I relied
on. And for the year after, it's
actually a little higher, so it works out about the same over those two years.
4802 But
I think the key point here is that I would love every part of
4803 And
I wish it were otherwise and I think that I would like everything good to
happen in this province, but when I look at the reality of where we're at in
the radio business, where we're at in the kinds of indicators that affect the
radio business, I would be very cautious.
4804 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Yeah. Elsewhere in that newspaper and others, they
talk about vast inventories of industrial property and other real estate stock
being bought up and sold quickly, another ‑‑ I guess to my
layman's limited knowledge of how things go up and down, that things actually
are really improving here. Like, people
are buying stuff and maybe there will be people coming here. Would you be saying that that's ‑‑
4805 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Let's hope so.
4806 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Let's hope so? Okay, yeah.
Okay ‑‑
4807 MR.
RAWLINSON: Commissioner Williams ‑‑
4808 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: It's a cautious optimism, I
guess, is what I'm hearing.
4809 MR.
RAWLINSON: I'm sorry, I kind of jumped
in on you. I apologize.
4810 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Yeah, that's ‑‑
no, that's fine.
4811 MR.
RAWLINSON: I just want to make a quick
comment, but I think things do look better today than they have for a while,
for the future. And I'd ‑‑
really do hope that things are going to improve. We just had so many false starts and, you
know, I've had ‑‑ we've had many times when we've had ‑‑
said, boy, you know, the next couple of years are really looking good for Saskatchewan
when they first started developing uranium in Saskatchewan, when potash came
along, and it ‑‑ there's been a number of time ‑‑
things that we thought were really going to make a huge difference, and they
have. But there's this incredible ‑‑
there's two things.
4812 There's
this ‑‑ the agricultural population has continued to decline,
so that's a factor. And the other thing
is is that we have the bad fortune of living next to Alberta, and it just ‑‑
as much as we try in Saskatchewan, Alberta just keeps sucking the people out,
and so it's ‑‑ so I'm ‑‑ I am hopeful that
things are going to get better, and we're not saying they're terrible now. We're just saying we're hoping that things
will really ‑‑ for once really start to boom here, but they
haven't yet.
4813 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: One of the big differences I
see between these two provinces, and I've had the advantage of living in
Alberta for the last few years, but I didn't live there all the time ‑‑
is I think there's a ‑‑ there was an attitude, I remember when
I first went there, and I think they called it the Alberta advantage, which was
relatively low prices, well‑educated workforce and, you know, a gung ho
attitude about their future opportunity which didn't look that good in the
early '90s in Alberta either.
4814 Now,
4815 So
I guess if I would look at
4816 And
then I was thinking, well, maybe that's why this industrial land is being
bought up and maybe that's why there's residential projects under
construction. Like, they're not building
them for ‑‑ and hoping someone would come. I would imagine that the people financing
them, unless they're financing them out of their back pockets, would expect
them to have a real reasonable opportunity to recoup that money so they could
pay back the debt.
4817 Do
you have ‑‑ like, I just don't see it as frightening an
economic prospect in this province as I've been hearing to some extent.
4818 MR.
RAWLINSON: Well, I'll comment quickly
and then let Ken speak to that. But
quite frankly, I don't think we are feeling that it's frightening. I think that we think that
4819 All
we're suggesting is is that, you know, if you come right back to the licensing
issue, there's ‑‑ if you give an extra licence to a market,
and it proves to be too many, it throws the market into destruction for a long
time, and you can't take it back.
4820 If
you under‑licence, i.e. if there should have been a licence granted, and
you say "Well, let's just wait for several years", you can't correct
that. But we've had a case ‑‑
it came up yesterday, I think, where somebody said, "Gee, the last station
in
4821 Well,
you know, Regina radio was really over‑radioed for that period and
is ‑‑ what happened was there was actually two licenses given
at that time, and it went from four radio stations to six radio ‑‑
I'm talking commercial radio stations, commercial mainstream stations.
4822 And
subsequent to that, several of the radio stations had severe financial
difficulties. Almost all of them changed
hands, and it was one of the worst radio markets for many, many years. And, you know, the ‑‑ Mr.
Hill had to come in and buy some stations, and the great old CKCK
actually ‑‑ I don't know whether they went formally into
receivership, but it virtually went bankrupt.
I mean there was some really tough times for virtually every other radio
station in the marketplace, except the two that we had that ‑‑
and we struggled and we had losses and so on, but at least we were able to
carry on.
4823 And
so making an ‑‑ over‑licensing, at any given time,
really it just takes a long time to get it sorted and usually there's some
tremendous turmoil in the meantime. If
you say "Well, we're not sure" and say ‑‑ and we can
always come back a couple of times ‑‑ several years later, and
so I'm saying that ‑‑ right back to your question on the
economics ‑‑ there are some things that look promising, but we
have had those kind of promising prospects before.
4824 That
oilfield that you mentioned is an oilfield that everybody, I think, knew
existed except they thought it had been primarily tapped out. They thought it was a certain level, and
they've now discovered ‑‑
4825 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Yes, there's a new
technology ‑‑
4826 MR.
RAWLINSON: ‑‑ a new type of drilling.
4827 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: ‑‑ that's come forward or something that's ‑‑
4828 MR.
RAWLINSON: Yes, new technology and
they're thinking that it can ‑‑
4829 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
4830 MR.
RAWLINSON: ‑‑ develop into something and so ‑‑
and I'm somewhat familiar. That's
actually, I think, southeastern
4831 So
again, let's hope. But we're still next
to Alberta where, you're right, things are more expensive, but there's ‑‑
but the jobs also pay a lot more and there's still that appeal to get people to
go there. So there are some people
actually that are saying "Hey, things are a lot cheaper in
4832 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Yeah, and just a couple of
very quick comments. First of all, I
looked at that map of the oilfield. I
was trying to see if it extended into
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4833 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: No.
4834 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: But it didn't get as far as
where I live so ‑‑
4835 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Just a little along the
border.
4836 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Yeah, yeah. The second thing when you talk about Alberta,
it's actually true it's overheated and peoples always say "You know, it's
overheated; this will happen", and it reminds me of something that Yogi
Berra once said. "Nobody goes there
anymore; it's too crowded."
4837 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
4838 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: But very seriously, it would
be really nice to see this turn around.
It would be really nice to see the population turn around, so we're
weighing a couple of factors here. We're
weighing some of these signs that say, you know, maybe this will happen. Maybe these commodity prices will stay at
this level. Maybe we'll be able to spin
off from the commodity prices into certain other kinds of activities ‑‑
maybe, maybe, maybe.
4839 On
the other hand, we see Statistics Canada issue a projection that show that,
over the next 25 years, only
4840 And
I agree completely with what Gordon said, caution lets you correct on the plus
side later. Lack of caution doesn't let
you correct later.
4841 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Well, thank you very much, Mr.
Rawlinson and Goldstein. That's my
questions, Madam Chair.
4842 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Round 2, Commissioner
Pennefather...?
4843 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Brief question, Mr.
Goldstein. The Conference Board report
that you referenced in your presentation today, what is the date of that?
4844 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Fall '06.
4845 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Fall '06?
4846 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Yeah.
4847 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: And it was just pointed out
to me that while perhaps decline ‑‑ are the growth rates not
as such positive? For example, 2008 is
2.4 percent; 2009, 2.3 percent. Do the
rates ‑‑ they're positive however.
4848 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: The rates are positive but
lower than they were and lower than
4849 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.
4850 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
4851 I
have a few questions. I read your
report, Mr. Goldstein, and my initial reaction was that part of the problem
with the Regina and Saskatoon markets is the size of the incumbents and that
they're not Rogers, where they get to amortize their expenses over ‑‑
the same expense, you know, over Lord knows how many stations, and so scale is
part of the problem or the size of the incumbents is part of the problem.
4852 And
I guess I then want to go to the issue of your linking profitability and gross
revenues, and the thing between gross revenues and profitability is
expenses. And so then that leads
me ‑‑ Mr. Rawlinson to say ‑‑ to ask you to
inform us, either now or on a confidential basis, who has paid the costs, the
pre‑application costs of your applications to
4853 And
secondly, have you been capitalizing the staff costs, not capital costs but
staff costs of the launch of the
4854 And
my point is drawing a string between the revenues and the expenses and ‑‑
because as Mr. Goldstein said, PBIT is what's left over after the cost of
earning that revenue, not future revenue.
So I'm asking that you would provide us with that information on a
confidential basis and if you could, if possible, quantify the pre‑application
costs of both
4855 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Would a week be reasonable?
4856 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Sure, within a week, yeah.
‑‑‑ UNDERTAKING /
ENGAGEMENT
4857 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Now ‑‑ and
this is not rocket science, but I'll do it as if I'm the best litigator in the
world. I agree with you that the
population has not changed in Saskatchewan but, Ms Leyland, has the
distribution of that population changed?
4858 MS
LEYLAND: This microphone, by the way, is
faulty, so I'm just ‑‑
4859 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I noticed that. I was going to tell Claude, yes.
4860 MS
LEYLAND: Intermittent electrical
problem. Yes, as we both know because
we've lived here for a while.
4861 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and that's the point
because we're talking ‑‑ we're not talking about
4862 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Yes, just as a very simple
example ‑‑ we're talking about
4863 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yeah.
4864 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: And the comment that was made
about the last new station licence in this market was over 20 years ago, so I
dutifully went on to the Statistics Canada site and I looked up the population
from 1986 of the Regina census metropolitan area and it was 190,566.
4865 THE
CHAIRPERSON: In when, I'm sorry?
4866 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: 1986.
4867 THE
CHAIRPERSON: '86.
4868 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: 190,566, and according to
Statistics Canada in 2005 199,041, so that's not what you'd call a huge increase
over a 20‑year period.
4869 So
when we talk about the proportions changing, if you look only at the proportion
of Regina as a proportion of Saskatchewan and say it's gone up, yes, it
has. Part of it is because the
population of
4870 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. What about the extended CMA?
4871 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: That is the ECMA.
4872 THE
CHAIRPERSON: The extended ‑‑
the ECMA?
4873 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: It's as Statistics Canada
defines the census metropolitan area.
It's ‑‑
4874 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, but what about the
surrounding areas because of the bedroom communities now?
4875 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: That ‑‑
that's all ‑‑ see, the definition of a CMA is to include
bedroom communities. That's how they
define a CMA.
4876 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I thought there was another one when we were
doing ‑‑
4877 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: Well, there are
extended ‑‑
4878 THE
CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ the telephone ‑‑
4879 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: ‑‑ markets in television and there's a central
market for BBN Radio.
4880 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yeah, okay.
4881 MR.
GOLDSTEIN: And my recollection is that
central and CMA are identical.
4882 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Okay, I think that's ‑‑ I
think we can let you off the hot seat.
Thank you very much.
4883 MS
LEYLAND: Thank you.
4884 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary...?
4885 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
4886 I
will now call the next appearing intervener, Hospitals of Regina
Foundation. If you would come forward
please?
‑‑‑ Pause
4887 THE
SECRETARY: Would you please identify
yourself or introduce yourself? And then
you will have ten minutes for your presentation.
4888 Thank
you.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
4889 MS
DAVIS: Good afternoon. My name is Judy Davis, and I am the chief
executive officer for the Hospitals of Regina Foundation. I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to
appear before the hearing this afternoon.
4890 The
Hospitals of Regina Foundation is the largest charity of its kind in the
4891 Because
we do not receive any funding for government, we rely on individuals,
corporations and community groups for our financial support. Our collective efforts have had an immensely
positive impact on the quality of care provided, which has also held ‑‑
helped attract and retain medical professionals in our community.
4892 I'm
proud to say that since our inception in 1988, the foundation has raised over
$65 million in support of better health care.
This year alone, the foundation will raise in excess of $7 million that
will be invested in new operating room equipment, a new cardiac cath lab,
breast and prostate assessment equipment, and patient comfort items like
electric beds and lifts.
4893 Our
success comes from our partnerships, and one of the most important partnerships
we have built has been with Rawlco Radio, and we are grateful to them for their
ongoing support through the annual Z99 radiothon that benefits the new neonatal
intensive care unit at the
4894 This
year will make the 20th annual radiothon in support of better medical equipment
for the tiniest babies. It is immensely
popular in our community and extremely successful. To date, over $1.4 million has been raised.
4895 Perhaps
in some circles this would not be considered significant. However, in our city and a city this size, it
has meant the difference between using new state of the art technology versus
getting by with old outdated equipment.
4896 The
commitment of Rawlco Radio goes far beyond the radiothon. It truly extends to their employees who are
committed ambassadors of the foundation, spread word about the need for
enhanced health care.
4897 Station
manager Tom Newton served on the foundation board until his term expired last
year and now Z99 program director, Kristy Werner, has come on board to fill
that gap.
4898 The
total Rawlco team commitment is further demonstrated through the work done by a
number of Z99 staff to line up pledged support from businesses in the community
to ensure financial goals are met for the radiothon.
4899 Publicity
is extensive and begins well in advance of the event. In addition to the on‑air interviews,
promotional ads and donor testimonials, a number of brochures are distributed
throughout our community. As a
foundation, we could not accomplish this level of publicity and support without
Z99's efforts.
4900 Together
we have built an event that culminates in a 36‑hour live broadcast. By sharing inspirational stories and
encouraging people to give generously, Z99 has created a lifeline of support
for the new neonatal unit. The goal this
year is to raise funds to purchase heart monitors. All babies need their heart rate and
breathing monitored, and these new monitors are absolutely state of the art.
4901 Rawlco
Radio's commitment to the children of southern
4902 As
the lead donor for the foundation's Small is Big Campaign to furnish and equip
the new centre, Rawlco demonstrated true leadership and their support was the
catalyst to encourage others to come on board.
Our campaign would not have achieved the success that it did without
their support.
4903 Rawlco
is truly a company that is philanthropic and community minded and aims to make
a difference where its employees live and work.
And that's really why I'm here today, to highlight the contributions
Rawlco Radio makes to the quality of life in
4904 I
value the partnership we've built with Rawlco over many years and their
generous airing of foundation public service announcements and support of all
of our fundraising goals has greatly assisted us in brand awareness and the
funds that we have raised.
4905 I
am concerned that increased competition in our market could impact our existing
relationship and decrease the effectiveness of our partnership in our shared
efforts to raise funds in the community.
It is my hope that the environment remains such that our partnership
continues to blossom and grow for 20 more years.
4906 Thank
you.
4907 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
4908 MS
DAVIS: Thank you.
4909 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary...?
4910 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
4911 I
would now call on the next appearing intervener, Paul Martin Communications, if
you could come forward?
‑‑‑ Pause
4912 THE
SECRETARY: If you could introduce
yourself? And then you will have ten
minutes for your presentation.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
4913 MR.
MARTIN: Thank you.
4914 Good
afternoon. I'm Paul Martin, president of
Paul Martin Communications and I'd like to ‑‑
4915 THE
CHAIRPERSON: If I could just interject?
4916 MR.
MARTIN: Yes.
4917 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Not the Paul Martin from
4918 MR.
MARTIN: No, the other ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4919 THE
CHAIRPERSON: The real Paul Martin.
4920 MR.
MARTIN: I think I referred to it the
other day as the employed one.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4921 MR.
MARTIN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
4922 I'd
like to add some further comments to the written submission that I made so I
thank you for the opportunity to join you.
4923 In
particular, I'm going to focus on two main areas which you've heard a fair bit
about and I'd just like to add my voice to it.
There's been lots of discussion about
4924 In
fact, we've suffered net out‑migration every year since ‑‑
1992 was the last positive year we had, and there may be some arguments that
we're about to see another one of those bumps where we could get back onto the
positive side.
4925 And
we have an economy here that's quite cyclical, and it seems that our cycle
comes once every 25 years, and we may be on the edge of ‑‑ or
sort of around it. There are some
indicators suggesting 2005 may have been the hot year and in 2006 we're
beginning to see a bit of a decline, and we'll continue to see that going
forward there.
4926 There
were some references to economic forecasts, CIBC World Markets in particular
today. There was one about ten days ago
from one of the other major banks which would play Saskatchewan in that fourth
spot, so probably in that 3 to 3 and a half percent range is what the general
consensus is. So while it's strong by
4927 But
as we watch the out‑migration issue, as someone who has been involved in
writing about business issues and political issues in this province, and also
now more engaged in policy formation on the economic front ‑‑
you know, we've watched this out‑migration challenge significantly. We like to jokingly say that when the
Roughriders play in
4928 But
the result here has been what economists call a hollowed‑out economy or
we have a high dependency ratio and that we have a high number of young people,
and that is predominantly seen in the rapid growth rates in the population base
in the Aboriginal community, and then we have a high number of seniors,
disproportionately high compared to the national average. Our problem is inbetween, between 19 and 64
in working age, if you want, where we have significantly below the national
average in terms of population within each of those age categories.
4929 In
fact, the most likely person to leave
4930 It's
been since ‑‑ 1982 was the last time ‑‑ well,
that was the first negative, so '81 was the last positive number that we saw in
terms of migration.
4931 But
we have indeed seen some population shifts within the province as we've seen
consolidation. In rural, in agricultural
communities farms are larger, fewer people on each piece of land. They have tended to move more to the urban
centres, and so we've seen a little bit of shifting within the province. But generally, if you look at the provincial
numbers, they have not changed very significantly at all.
4932 This
has been a key issue for the business community and for politicians, and we are
beginning to see work into political platforms into the policy discussion that
goes on here.
4933 In
terms of what we see within the major urban centres,
4934
4935 In
fact we've even seen this ‑‑ the people that were displaced,
in particular with
4936 And
that takes me to the broader issue, I think, of market fragmentation, and it is
a concern of mine. As someone who's
engaged in broadcasting in the community, I freelance for the Rawlco chain and
for also Golden West and I had ‑‑ I do a business commentary,
and they're heard as well on the
4937 You
know, at the root of all of this audience is what it's all about, and if the
audience isn't growing ‑‑ and yet, that's contrasted by the
number of media options that are coming along, and I think I delineated those
in my written piece. You really can't
help but have market fragmentation.
4938 And
I get worried about that because there was a point in my career where I was
doing television. We had a television
program. It was a very high quality TV
show produced here in
4939 I
saw that as nothing more than a byproduct of fragmentation. As the audiences decline, simply the
advertising revenue wasn't there to the station and they were forced, through
prudence, to have to trim back their program options. And as a result, alternative voices within
the province, such as mine, were not available on that station anymore. But perhaps more importantly, from an audience
perspective, was that we were served less local, more national. And the local stories were not being
told. Certainly the business stories
were not being told as well or in any sort of in‑depth fashion.
4940 So
I raise that as a concern, that I worry about any additional licences being
granted. While on the surface that
sounds great, all the options ‑‑ all the more options the
better, as long as we don't lose what we've already got. If we have to undermine the program options
that we've got in order for more a variety or more of the same or different
version of the same, I would not be a real fan of that. I would think that at least maintain the
standard of programming that we've got.
4941 You
know, to bring in more John Tess really just doesn't seem to be progress to
me. I'd much rather that have a greater
opportunity to have more in-depth coverage of ‑‑ brought to
the airways by people who live here locally, rather than importing more
product.
4942 So
my concern is a dual one; if the population is not growing and we add more
licences to it, we just fragment the marketplace further and undermine what
we've already got. So thank you.
4943 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Williams has a
question.
4944 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: In terms of adding more
licences, your comment is you'd rather just ‑‑ well, you know
your comment. Does that hold true for
the addition of the Aboriginal applicants that claim that they're currently
underserved, the market is underserved for their community?
4945 MR.
MARTIN: You know, I think I'd probably
echo their view. I think that in the
last five to ten years the voices of the First Nations and the Aboriginal
community have begun to be heard, but they weren't heard at all before that. So we've made some progress, but I think that
they've got a long ways to go. And, you
know, we ‑‑ I think probably there's some merit in continuing
to allow that to continue to grow.
4946 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you very much for that.
4947 MR.
MARTIN: Yeah.
4948 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: I have no further questions,
Madam Chair.
4949 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Vice‑Chair Arpin has
a couple of questions.
4950 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Yeah, Mr. Martin, we also heard
an application for a gospel music radio station, and I don't think gospel music
is offered in this market.
4951 MR.
MARTIN: Not to the best of my knowledge.
4952 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: No. And do you think it will be ‑‑
it will complement the radio offering in the market or will it be a competitor
that you think should be of a similar nature than the other more programming
genre that ‑‑ more commercial programming genre?
4953 MR.
MARTIN: It ‑‑ and I
don't know that I can comment. I don't
know what their business case was, whether they were going to look for local
advertising revenue or not but ‑‑
4954 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: They're looking for some
significant advertising revenues.
4955 MR.
MARTIN: From the local market?
4956 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Yes.
4957 MR.
MARTIN: Presumably that would be a
further fragmentation that would disrupt ‑‑ and my baseline
theory is that I'm not necessarily opposed to the addition of voices. I just want to make sure that if you give us
more, we don't take away what we've already got. Let's build upon the foundation but not
undermine the foundation.
4958 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: The ‑‑ it's not
necessarily in this room, but surely outside the room, I'm hearing a lot about
how important the government is in this province. And do you have an idea of where the share of
advertising that the government is investing in the overall media, and the
radio in particular?
4959 MR.
MARTIN: I have no idea of what their
share of advertising revenue is. But
just as a general conversation or observation, I would think that you're
hearing pretty accurate stuff, that the government is fairly well involved in
this economy, yes.
4960 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: So ‑‑
4961 MR.
MARTIN: And I was in the newspaper
business at one point and I just wish the government would have bought more at
that time but ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4962 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: So they never buy enough?
4963 MR.
MARTIN: They didn't buy enough from me
anyway.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4964 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: But it's also got ‑‑
government expenditures is also somehow cyclical; when the elections are
coming, they're investing more than the day after the election.
4965 MR.
MARTIN: Well, that's absolutely
accurate, especially the day after a change in government. But, you know, they're cyclical in two
contexts. One, there's the political
cycle, but there's also the economic cycle.
And I think that, you know, much has been said about the oil industry,
and certainly that's been quite a potent catalyst for the province, but we
don't have a lot of oil companies headquartered here ‑‑ a
couple of small ones.
4966 Most
of the money that's generated from the oil industry, any profits tend to ‑‑
from the production side at least, tend to flow outside the province. The only place that it gets captured is
either in the service industry or in the provincial treasury through royalties,
which then allows the province to, you know, open it's purse to do what it
does.
4967 And
it has recently added some advertising campaigns to the mix but, you know, that
too, is cyclical as well. I mean we've
seen certainly the rise on the oil and gas side and on the mineral side, but at
the same time, we've seen significant challenges on the forestry side and now
we're seeing some on the value added side in agriculture.
4968 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Thank you very much, Mr. Martin.
4969 MR.
MARTIN: You're welcome.
4970 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Madam Chair...?
4971 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Martin. Nice to see you again. There ‑‑ we have no more
questions.
4972 MR.
MARTIN: Well, thank you very much.
4973 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary...?
4974 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
4975 I
would now call Mr. Neil Meckelborg to come forward to present his intervention.
‑‑‑ Pause
4976 MR.
MECKELBORG: Test, test. It's working?
4977 THE
SECRETARY: I would ask that you
introduce yourself and then you will have ten minutes for your presentation.
4978 Thank
you.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
4979 MR.
MECKELBORG: My name is Neil
Meckelborg. I'm a recording engineer,
songwriter, record producer, studio owner, weekend musician and director of
Rawlco's 10K20 program. These are two of
the 29 artists that recorded CD's with 10K20's support this year; Kim Fontaine
from
4980 I've
been a professional musician for almost 30 years and a
4981 After
the demise of Line Up, I began putting some of the studio skills I'd learned
over the years to use, recording bands myself.
This led to a basement studio, a garage studio, my own facility, and now
partnership in one of
4982 Rawlco
Radio approached me earlier this year to be the director for their 10K20
program. This is a program where 20
artists from
4983 It
wasn't until I was on my way home from the meeting, however, that I really
started to realize what this actually meant.
Twenty artists from
4984 The
project was launched in April, and we were flooded with requests. There were almost 250 applications. I was amazed at the number of people applying
and the quality of the applications. The
most daunting task was going to be choosing 20.
Then Rawlco made my job easier and found funding for nine more albums,
bringing the total to 29.
4985 That's
almost $300,000 pumped into the
4986 My
job as director was to identify artists that would be funding candidates and
help them through the process of their recordings. This meant anything from helping them find
studios, musicians and producers to just advice and opinions on how the project
was progressing.
4987 The
finished albums began arriving in September, but the majority have arrived in
the last month or few weeks. At this
point we have 23 of 29 completed, and 5 of the remaining 6 are scheduled for
completion within the next few weeks.
4988 One
10K20 artist ran into a major snag when the producer he was going to use for
his album was no longer available.
Scheduling made it impossible for the producer to participate in the
album project, and the entire project was put on hold until another producer
could be found. This situation put the
artist in an awkward position, and I feel it noteworthy to point out that
Rawlco chose to continue his funding instead of cutting him off when the
original funding agreement was no longer possible. The artist is currently negotiating with
other producers and is hoping to have his album completed by the end of the
year.
4989 Rawlco
has made a commitment to playing these artists and many other local artists as
well. This is an important point and one
that I have witnessed countless times driving home from work and hearing local
bands on Rock 102 and C95 in
4990 This
fact is crucial to the success of this project.
Without airplay, these albums are likely to be sold off stage at gigs
and sent off to record companies to be tossed out the back door because
nobody's ever heard of them.
4991 The
significance of a quality competitive recording for an artist's future
development can't be overstated, and having it receive radio play is just as
important. It is so much more than just
hearing yourself on the radio and having your buddies call you to up to ring
your praises. An album that is getting
airplay is a sales tool, a calling card and a legitimization of the artist.
4992 With
airplay, an artist can get more gigs that pay better. They can sell more CDs at those gigs. They can send their disk to record companies
and expect some to actually listen to it.
If they're getting airplay, they must be for real.
4993 Other
radio stations in other cities are far more likely to pick up a single if it's
getting airplay somewhere else, and the list goes on. I'll stop there, but if ‑‑
it's important to point out the importance of airplay as well as the recording.
4994 Something
very cool that happened during the project, that I wasn't expecting, was the
fact that most of the artists spent more than their $10,000. Some doubled it. This is significant because it says that they
were willing not just to use up the free money and get the disk done, but take
the opportunity to make the best record they could, which was part of the main
goal of the project.
4995 That,
to me, shows the true success of the project; to help artists that were ready
and prepared record the best record that they could. This goes without exception through the list
of artists, from first‑time recording artists to seasoned veterans. It was amazing.
4996 I
personally have never seen anything generate so much excitement in the
4997 Project
10K20 has increased the output of professional album releases in the province
this year by probably 50 percent, just single‑handedly from the
project. Project 10K20 ‑‑
I read that line. And this all comes
just in time for the Junos next summer too.
The Juno announcement a few weeks ago in
4998 The
question I hear most often is are they going to do this again next year. My understanding is that they will continue
the program, but the numbers of artists funded will not ‑‑ has
not yet been decided. This is not an
unexpected question, but I think it's ‑‑ it has more
importance than you initially think.
4999 During
this one year ‑‑ or doing this one year will give
5000 With
today's technology, that really isn't just a sappy thought; it's a fact. However, doing something like 10K20 on an
ongoing basis is a sustainable funding base to develop
5001 The
Saskatchewan Government is currently bringing together music industry people to
look at ways of helping the industry grow and prosper both within and outside
of the province. I think having Project
10K20 continuing on a regular basis would be a big step toward that goal
happening.
5002 Thank
you for your time.
5003 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cugini has a
few questions for you.
5004 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Well, maybe just one, depending
on your answer. Thank you for being here
this afternoon. While I can agree that
10K20 is a laudable project for the artists that it has benefited and will
continue to benefit, is it not advantageous to have as many radio outlets as
possible in a market so that those CDs can get more airplay?
5005 MR.
MECKELBORG: The radio outlets, I'm ‑‑
I'm not ‑‑ I suppose that's a ‑‑ that is a
legitimate point, but without the albums in the first place and without the
albums of a quality that a radio will play, it's kind of a secondary
point. The albums first need to be
there.
5006 And
the fact that 10K20 is enough money for an album to record an album ‑‑
sorry, for an artist to record an album that is nationally competitive ‑‑
like, you can set it on the radio right next to the top ten, and you should be
able to have a product that's competitive with that. I think that's ‑‑ getting
the album first is more of a priority.
And then on top of that, Rawlco is very supportive of these
projects. I've ‑‑ I
haven't heard this many local bands on any other station in ‑‑
that I've heard of.
5007 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Are the artists that are
supported by this project, are they restricted to any one genre of music?
5008 MR.
MECKELBORG: No, it's ‑‑
5009 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: So it spans across all genres?
5010 MR.
MECKELBORG: Yeah, all cultural ‑‑
every ‑‑ everything from hip hop artists to rock and roll
artists to country to pretty much across all genres.
5011 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Any Aboriginal artists?
5012 MR.
MECKELBORG: Yeah, there was a ‑‑
there's an Aboriginal hip hop artist, an Aboriginal country artist, and a Metis
pop duo.
5013 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you. Thank you very much.
5014 MR.
MECKELBORG: Yeah, thank you.
5015 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. ‑‑
oh, Vice‑Chair Arpin...?
5016 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: To your knowledge, do the ‑‑
has these artists and their albums been played by other radio stations than
Rawlco Radio stations?
5017 MR.
MECKELBORG: I'm not aware of ‑‑
at this point, I don't know.
5018 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Now, you ‑‑ we
have two artists here today. To their
knowledge, has your CD been played elsewhere than on a Rawlco Radio station?
5019 MS
FONTAINE: Well, for me personally, I
just handed in my masters three weeks ago, and they're just being added to the
Rawlco rotation currently as we speak.
But it's up to the artist to market their material to other radio
stations. Whether or not the other
artists have taken that step, I'm not aware of that yet.
5020 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Have you?
5021 MS
MAYER: I've been on the Rawlco Radio
station since I was 11, and I haven't been on any other. Rawlco has been very supportive through that
and ‑‑ yeah, so ‑‑
5022 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Thank you.
5023 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Meckelborg
and ‑‑ I'm sorry, I forget who ‑‑
5024 THE
SECRETARY: May I ask the two ladies to
identify themselves so you see your name on the transcript?
5025 MS
FONTAINE: My name is Kim Fontaine.
5026 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Right.
5027 MS
MAYER: My name is Morgan Mayer.
5028 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
5029 Madam
Secretary...?
5030 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
5031 I
would now like to call on the next four appearing interveners to appear as a
panel as they are in support of Standard Radio:
MapleMusic & Open Road Recordings, The Good Brothers, The Poverty
Plainsmen, and Birdsong Communications.
With respect to Birdsong Communications, they are not listed on the
agenda. That was inadvertently missed.
‑‑‑ Pause
5032 THE
SECRETARY: We'll start with MapleMusic
and Open Road Recordings. If you could
identify yourself before you speak? And
you will each have ten minutes for your presentation.
5033 Go
ahead.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
5034 MR.
KITCHENER: Good afternoon.
5035 My
name is Ron Kitchener, and I own RGK Entertainment Group, an artist management
company based in
5036 Country
music radio remains an ‑‑ our number one priority in terms of
promotion and opportunity when developing careers, launching CDs and marketing
live concerts to the public. The lack of
an FM station in
5037 While
Regina ranks as one of our top and most important country markets in Canada, I
believe the market could be so much stronger and significant to much of the
prairie culture here in Saskatchewan.
The market has everything the format and industry require except an FM
station satisfying the demand on an overflowing country music fan base.
5038 Regina
has always been ideal for touring with numerous options that work for all
levels of artists, from The Pump Roadhouse that has been supportive of new
acts, to a thousand‑seat general admission facility, a 2,000‑plus‑seat
art centre, and the Brandt Centre, a larger arena, not to mention the Regina
Casino that has regularly hosted concerts and provided support spots to many
developing local artists in front of national headliners.
5039 The
annual country music festival in Craven, just down the road, is one of the top
country music festivals in
5040 And
I can speak for ‑‑ I feel I can speak for the entire country
music industry to say how excited we are that Regina will host the 2007 Country
Music Awards next September.
5041 Standard
Broadcasting is an accomplished team with a strong national reputation and have
been nothing but supportive to the development of my artists and country music
in general. The support for all formats
and commitments to projects that benefit new and developing artists are very
welcome and applauded by the entire music business.
5042 The
annual radio awards during Canadian Music Week are one example. Each year, whether through performance,
presenting or an award winning, we have had an artist benefit from this event;
Doc Walker in 2004, Johnny Reid in 2005, The Road Hammers earlier this year.
5043 Standard
and Sound Source recently recorded a full one‑hour radio special around
the release of Doc Walker's new album providing a professionally edited show
that documents the rise of one of Canada's top bands and showcases material
from their new album. This show will air
in over 20 markets across the country in ‑‑ this weekend in
advance of that album coming out next week.
5044 Nationally,
we have been able to create significant promotions with the Standard stations
that increase our profile and provide valuable time exclusively for our
artists. For example, Standard's BX93 in
5045 Another
leap‑of‑faith effort was creating a sound check party with QX104 in
5046 The
benefit to Johnny in that market was truly important for his profile when he
returned there six months later as part of a Brad Paisely/Terri Clark tour that
played to 10,000 people at the MTS Centre.
5047 We
are investing significant time and money into our artists' recordings in order
to make them world class, and the FM signal allow us to sound that way ‑‑
sound the way the music should as it competes with all other music formats.
5048 Country
music has a very loyal fan base and continues to have a growing younger
audience, the new audience that is developing as the music changes and is
represented in the new country format.
5049 Pop
and rock fans are finding personal satisfaction with the sound of the country
artists today and more so than they've received in the AC and the hot AC
formats, and are testing and staying with new country.
5050 Standard's
plan for 40 percent CanCon alone is a strong statement about how our format and
the artists have grown and can provide world‑class music. However, the most important item of the
application is the announcement of playing the Canadian power currents as much
as the national ones.
5051 By
having it the other way, as many Canadian stations have it, we are denying the
opportunity for Canadian artists to get played and therefore chart the same as
the internationals. The lack of Canadian
artists topping our national charts has been unfortunate, and Standard's even‑play
proposal will assist bringing us one step closer to fair and even play between
Canadian and international artists on a national level.
5052 Standard's
community focused programming and assistance towards the development of
5053 With
so many ‑‑ with so little music available on the AM dials, it
is not uncommon for the majority of the public to search elsewhere for the
music they want, and unfortunately that is not talk‑dominated AM
dial ‑‑ dials.
5054 In
a market overflowing with loyal and new country music fans, an FM licence is
the last remaining piece required here in
5055 Thank
you for your time.
5056 THE
SECRETARY: We will continue with The
Good Brothers. If you could identify
yourself? And you'll have ten minutes.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
5057 MR.
GOOD: My name is Bruce Good. I'm the leader of a group called The Good
Brothers. We have recorded 15 albums and
we're fortunate enough to have received eight Juno awards for country group of
the year over ‑‑ we've sold in excess of a quarter of a
million records, and in '04 we were inducted into the Canadian Country Music
Hall of Fame.
5058 I
guess I'm here for a few reasons. One is
certainly gratitude to Standard Broadcasting who are partly responsible for the
success that we enjoyed over the years, due to the fact that our outlawed brand
of country music was not necessarily embraced by AM radio. However, FM radio was there for us then.
5059 Now,
it seems my sons have picked up the ball, carrying on the family tradition in a
group called The Sadies. In fact The
Sadies performed here in
5060 They
run into the same problem, I suppose, that their father and their uncles did in
that their brand of music isn't exactly the type that you'll here on AM
radio. So their hope is FM radio. As they say, I guess, the apple doesn't fall
far from the tree.
5061 But
as a performer who has toured for more than 30 years, it's always been apparent
that
5062 I
guess the longevity of country music is proven by the fact these festivals and
this ‑‑ the club that has been here so long are still running
and still existing today. In 2007
5063
5064 We
can continue, I suppose, with the status quo or the same old/same sold, but I'd
like to see this city enjoy the excitement of an FM country station and think
Standard Broadcasting is the one to deliver it and strengthen the future of
Canadian country music.
5065 Thank
you very much.
5066 THE
SECRETARY: We'll continue with The
Poverty Plainsmen.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
5067 MR.
SMITH: Hi. My name is Mark Smith, and I'm a lead singer
and founder of the group The Poverty Plainsmen.
We are going to be celebrating our 20th year in the music business
coming up here in 1997. We currently are
5068 And
I found, coming to
5069 And
although I have a great relationship with CKRM and the Harvard Group ‑‑
I've spent lots of money with those guys, and also with Rawlco as well. And I just find that there's been a big void,
however, in this city for FM country.
Ever since the late '90s when Country 92 went off the air and went to a
lite format, I personally didn't like it.
5070 I
find that if we're trying to promote a country show in this city, it's very
difficult. I've ‑‑ I
find that Country 100 in
5071 The
Standard Radio Group has brought a very good plan to the table. I think they're going to be giving lots back to
the community, you know, especially any local talent. They're going to be based here in
5072 Thank
you.
5073 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you. And we'll continue with Birdsong
Communication.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
5074 MR.
LIST: Thank you very much, Madam Chair
and Commissioners for this opportunity to support or to talk in support of the
Standard Radio application.
5075 Just
imagine my presentation with a steel guitar playing in the background because I
think it will really add to this. I know
Bruce was supposed to do that, but Air
5076 I
wear many hats here today. My name is
Don List of course. I'm the president of
Birdsong Communications. I'm an owner of
the company that has celebrated its 28th anniversary just this last week. I've been active in the community in
5077 I
have been involved in the cultural industries.
I am a motion picture producer.
I'm also very actively involved with Aboriginal youth theatre, Night‑Wind
Theatre. I am also an active member
in ‑‑ or as a board member of the Conexus Art Centre. I have been involved with motion picture
development, policy development and I've seen this community grow. I've seen it prosper.
5078 My
presentation ‑‑ and I believe you have my intervention. I would like to focus on three points, and
the first one is I have to commend you on your comments about showing that
the ‑‑ well, I've got an empty glass here, but I really do
believe that the community ‑‑ the economy in Saskatchewan is
growing. It's vibrant, and thank you for
talking about it showing that our glass is full.
5079 I've
gone through the ups and downs of this community and I see a lot of young
people in this community. I'm a
sessional lecturer at the university,
5080 Anyways,
so when this opportunity came to speak for this, I see that, yes,
5081 One
of the ‑‑ the second point I support wholeheartedly with this
application is the Canadian Talent Development initiative. I have a 12‑year history with a program
development fund, the CTV Saskatchewan Program Development Fund, which I'm a
board of trustee. And you might be
familiar with it at the CRTC.
5082 I
have seen firsthand what money put into the hands of young writers, young
technicians, film makers ‑‑ and now 12 years later, they
aren't so young anymore, but they are working in the industry and those little
bit of money, which grew over the years and what it has done. I see an initiative like Standard Radio coming
in with their commitment to the developing young people is wonderful, and I can
only say I support it wholeheartedly.
5083 The
third point which I'd like to talk about is the ‑‑ my
particular interest in the initiative.
Again, it's maybe tying it back to the Canadian Talent Development with
the First Nations University of Canada.
I was involved with the formation of INCA(ph) in '87, '88, '89 and I am
now enjoying the fruits of the labour of seeing wonderful people, young people
coming up through the ranks, Aboriginal ancestry, and they are working in the
industry.
5084 The
initiative to put in programming, bursaries and getting these people into the
work field ‑‑ or workforce, again is quite commendable. If you take note of my comment, I said
although the ‑‑ I support the fund and I believe it might be
small, but it grows. I think yesterday I
found out that in three weeks it did grow already. Much to your chagrin, I believe.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
5085 MR.
LIST: But it's a great initiative. And again, my history with the development
fund and seeing what wonderful things it does, I just believe that, you know,
an initiative like this will have ‑‑ should be supported.
5086 I'm
willing and able to answer any questions based on this. And if there's difficult questions, I'll just
toss them over to Bruce. Thank you very
much for this opportunity.
5087 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you all,
gentlemen. Commissioner Cugini is first
up to bat.
5088 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Good afternoon and welcome. I just ‑‑ going to the type
of music that is applied on an AM country station versus an FM country station,
and I do admit I'm not as well versed in country music as you gentlemen are
obviously. But, Mr. Good, you said that
your brand of country music is an outlaw brand and isn't typically played on
AM. First of all, what does that mean?
5089 And
secondly, can you tell me in general terms what are the differences between a
type of country music that's played on an AM station and that which is played
on an FM station?
5090 MR.
GOOD: Certainly. I can speak for myself when it comes to this
of course. Back in that day which was
mid '70s through to the late '80s, it was really referred to as ‑‑
before new country, and it was really considered country and western, which was
the old brand. That was the type of
music that was played on AM country stations.
5091 Our
particular style of music was mixed with a little bit of rock and roll. It was with the delivery, the
instrumentation, for example, was different than the regular steel guitars that
Don would like to hear. It just had a
different sound that was hard to ‑‑ as I used to say, it was
as though we were between a rock and a country place.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
5092 MR.
GOOD: It was really hard to get placed,
and that's where FM, to our benefit, came to our rescue, you might say. And in particular in the
5093 Today,
compared to what we played back in those days, our music was actually very
tame. Today it has taken on a brand new
sound, a brand new look, and it's now termed as new country, which now is an
old term anyway.
5094 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: And what are the difficulties
your son is facing?
5095 MR.
GOOD: Their type of music is so hard to
define, so hard to pigeon‑hole.
They play ‑‑ they've played regularly and charted on
the college ‑‑ the campus radios across the land. They're played on CBC. They're played on FM radio ‑‑
not a lot, but they are.
5096 It's
really their ‑‑ at this point in their careers, in their early
careers it's the only play they receive at this time. And their music can be defined as ‑‑
it has been called alternative country, and it's a type of music that is being
more and more accepted, I believe, first of all in my opinion, on FM radio
before it ever enters into the AM stream.
5097 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
5098 THE
CHAIRPERSON: And the second batter is
Commissioner Pennefather.
5099 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chair.
5100 You
were here a moment with the previous intervener, I think, Mr. List, in the
room. And my colleague, Commissioner
Cugini, actually asked about what you say in your point 2, the ‑‑
adding to the healthy, competitive environment.
Can you comment a little more on that ‑‑ your point
about the importance of a healthy, competitive environment to artists' music in
this community and what you meant by that comment?
5101 MR.
LIST: Here I get myself into
trouble. As I say, I was ‑‑
I'm in small business. May father was in
small business. My grandfather was in
small business, and together I ‑‑ you know, that's almost 60
years.
5102 I
started out here as a young pup, a graduate of the
5103 And,
you know, right now you look at
5104 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Please don't exaggerate
about the health of that industry, please, Mr. List.
5105 MR.
LIST: Okay.
5106 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I'm afraid my colleagues
might think that we're doing very well here in
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
5107 UNIDENTIFIED
SPEAKER: We'll explain later.
5108 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: It's a
5109 MR.
LIST: Your home town is coming to ‑‑
but, no, I'd said that there's room. I
mean ‑‑ and again, this is very personal because, I mean, at
one point people said, "Well, the pie is too small", and I think that
we've proven it in our cultural industry and I see the talent that comes
through. And we can't sustain, you know,
jobs for all the people that are coming through our schools, the university,
the theatre department ‑‑ an excellent program. So they will move on, and that's something
that we are quite proud of in
5110 So
I think it's the competitive, positive attitude has to say, yeah, I'm willing
to compete. I'm willing to take on that
challenge, and I think that's what I meant by the healthy environment because I
do see that there is a lot of things happening here, very positively. My company is growing. We have a full staff, you know, and we just
celebrated 28 years so ‑‑
5111 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: I understand. Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And just
to ‑‑ so you know, Madam Chair is a very strong defender of
monies and support to
5112 MR.
LIST: And we thank ‑‑
5113 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: ‑‑ so when the chart went up about
5114 THE
CHAIRPERSON: And ‑‑
5115 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: We've been told.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
5116 THE
CHAIRPERSON: And unfortunately I
can't ‑‑ have very little to complain about these days, so I
don't want to make a big deal about it.
Vice‑Chair Arpin...?
5117 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
5118 Which
type of country format will you qualify the
5119 MR.
SMITH: I would say it's more new
country.
5120 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: It's more new country?
5121 MR.
SMITH: Yeah.
5122 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: We heard earlier today that they
were delivering a crystal clear ‑‑ that's where ‑‑
the words that were used, "Crystal clear signal over
5123 MR.
LIST: Well, I do occasionally listen to
5124 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Well, the reason I'm asking the
question ‑‑ well, it seems to me that
5125 MR.
LIST: Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's 40 minutes ‑‑
5126 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Forty minutes ‑‑
5127 MR.
LIST: ‑‑ from
5128 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: ‑‑ 40 minutes' drive so ‑‑
5129 MR.
LIST: With your radar detector on ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
5130 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: With radar, okay.
5131 MR.
LIST: Yeah, I'm not sure where that's
coming from. Sorry, sir, I ‑‑
do you know?
5132 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Well, it means that if you have a
crystal clear signal from
5133 MR.
SMITH: I think that is correct. There's ‑‑ there is a
country format here, but like I said earlier, it's not of a
5134 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Yeah, sure.
5135 MR.
SMITH: ‑‑ out of the city, so it makes it hard.
5136 MR.
GOOD: If I may? I'm not from the area, but to add to that, it
would seem to me that not being from Regina ‑‑ and now I'm
getting off the music a little bit, but it would mean that any events, any
local events, or any news ‑‑ or whatever the case may be ‑‑
I don't think they have traffic in Moose Jaw but ‑‑
5137 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Do they have traffic in
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
5138 MR.
GOOD: But it just would seem to me
that ‑‑
5139 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Particularly from a guy coming
from
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
5140 MR.
GOOD: It just seems to me it's a matter
of what is really ours, and I think this is a ‑‑ this would be
a station that
5141 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
5142 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, gentlemen, very
much. Thank you. Mr. List, is there anything you don't do?
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
5143 MR.
LIST: I'll leave my resume here
but ‑‑
5144 MR.
GOOD: He doesn't play steel guitar.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
‑‑‑ Pause
5145 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
5146 Before
we proceed to the next panel of support interveners, I'd just like to indicate
for the record that one of the support interveners for Touch
5147 Therefore,
if the following five supporting interveners for Touch would come forward? Jennifer Jade Kerr, Zbitnew and Associates,
Lighthouse To All Nations, Shelan Schnell and the
‑‑‑ Pause
5148 THE
SECRETARY: We will start with Ms
Jennifer Jade Kerr. You will have ten
minutes for your presentation. Please go
ahead.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
5149 MS
KERR: Thank you.
5150 Good
afternoon. You'll have to forgive my
nerves, but it's very odd being up here with ‑‑ in front of
the microphone without my guitar.
Hopefully I won't have to break into song to finish my presentation.
5151 Regardless,
I feel very honoured to have the opportunity to speak to you about something
that makes me very excited ‑‑ the possibility of a Christian
radio station here in
5152 There
are many reasons why I would love to see this station become reality. I would like to connect these reasons to each
of my three jobs. Apparently a theme up
here is multi‑tasking.
5153 My
day job is as registrar of
5154 Our
students are very diverse. First year
students, to single moms, to fully employed adults looking to continue their
education. Many of them are leading very
challenging lives, and are in constant need of positivity and
encouragement. Any direction from which
that comes is much appreciated.
5155 My
students are very excited about the Touch Broadcasting application. They keep asking how it is going and say how
great it would be if this station were to come through.
5156 Many
of our dorm students from out of town miss the Christian stations available in
their home towns and would love to have one here. Western Christian also has a high school with
over 100 grade 9 to 12 students from many walks of life. A dream of mine is to watch a lunch hour
sports game some day, hearing
5157 President
Kevin Vance of
5158 In
addition to being a college and high school, Western Christian has on its
campus the second largest theatre seating auditorium in
5159 This
is a group of people that is energetically passionate about their music. And I do mean this truly, the auditorium
floor moves when these kids start jumping.
And there's not a station in this city devoted to their kind of
music. They find their favourite artists
through MySpace and iTunes, not through
5160 Most
of them, like me, because of this non‑radio music interaction receive
little, if any, local news or talk content on a daily basis and are often too
busy or too blase to stop and intentionally watch news or local
programming. If that is not a wide‑open
target just waiting to be addressed, I'm not sure what it.
5161 I
am also a youth worker in this city at my church. I work with the 12 to 18 age demographic and
I love introducing them to music that I enjoy and trust. I am a self‑proclaimed music junky and
I know a lot of my kids are too, and I am very concerned with the damaging
messages they pick up from the music they listen to every day.
5162 I
try to teach them respect for themselves and others, and they listen to music
that degrades women and glorifies drug use and violence. I try to teach them physical modesty, and
they are bombarded by images of barely clothed women flaunting their
sexuality. I try to teach them about
being accountable and trustworthy in relationships, and they're listening to
songs about the joys of promiscuity and how to lie and get away with it.
5163 I'm
25 years old, and I don't approve of those messages going into my head, let
alone the heads of my kids. I would love
for them to have instant access to music that speaks of peace, joy, solid
values, confidence, relationships of integrity, and how awesome it is to be
loved just the way they are.
5164 That's
what a Christian format radio station in
5165 As
a youth worker in this city, I participate in a group called the Regina Youth
Pastors Ministerial. The group,
representing over 25 churches of various denominations, meets once a month to
discuss issues that are youth are facing, joint program initiatives, and also
just to encourage each other in our work.
5166 The
5167 My
third job; one of the greatest joys of my life is my music. I have been writing songs for 13 years and
performing steadily for the last 6. The
artistic community of
5168 I
am a member of both SaskMusic, formerly the Saskatchewan Recording Industry
Association, and the Saskatchewan Country Music Association where I fall within
the gospel, adult and songwriter categories.
I have been self‑marketing a demo CD called Foretaste, which I
recorded in 2003 and am currently recording a full‑length project
entitled, "Life In General".
It includes the best and most requested material I have written over the
last seven years covering topics such as being single, a phone conversation
with a best friend, my faith, feeling loved, feeling unloved, and even my
favourite old pair of shoes. It's my
mom's favourite.
5169 Whether
a song I write is explicitly about my faith or not, I write from the
perspective of someone learning how to live a moral and confident life in a
world that does not encourage that.
5170 When
someone compliments me on a song I've written and says "That is so much
like what I'm going through and your words encourage me to keep going",
that is a really great gift. The give
and take between artists and audience is a very powerful thing and I'm only
beginning to understand its implications.
5171 I
have performed at a lot of different venues and events and feel most in the
zone as an artist when I am able to be honest and true to who I am, presenting
the difficulties and joys that life can include when you are attempting to live
with that level of personal transparency.
5172 A
good friend told me once that you should always be HOT; honest, open, and
transparent. And that has become a great
guideline for me as a songwriter and performer.
5173 A
Christian radio station would give me the exposure within a community I love
and want to serve and encourage and would also allow me to express myself
honestly as an artist. It would open
doors to additional performances, increase record sales, and just the
excitement that comes from moving my artistic career to another level. Also because of my broad writing and
performing style and the topics they tend to cover, radio airplay on anything
other than a Christian format station is admittedly going to be sparse.
5174 The
5175 I
need to add one extra category to this presentation which is related to my
interests as an artist but also speaks to my interest in music as a whole. As I said before, I'm a music junky. I listen to and love many genres of
music. One thing I love about the
Christian music format is that it is so broad, just like my own musical tastes.
5176 Within
my own Christian music collection I have hard rock, pop, hip hop, punk,
independent singer/songwriters, country, emo, worship, novelty/comedy, and
kids' music, much of it Canadian as well.
That is what a Touch Broadcasting station can offer
5177 Contemporary
Christian music is fuelled by such a wealth of influences that coming out ‑‑
that the music coming out is incredibly diverse. That's what I want to hear on the radio and
so do many of my friends and peers.
5178 Right
now, although I listen to music through most of my waking hours, I rarely
listen to
5179 At
work I turn into ‑‑ I tune into a Christian radio station over
the Internet because there is nothing on
5180 If
this application by Touch Broadcasting is accepted, Shine FM Regina would
instantly be my station ‑‑ as a youth worker, as a young adult
mentor, as an artist and as a music listener.
And I know I'm not alone in that feeling.
5181 Again,
I want to thank you for granting me the honour of presenting to you today. As you can tell from the number of letters
sent in support of the Touch Broadcasting application, there are a lot of
people who are passionately in support of this application and for many compelling
reasons. We would love to have a station
that we can call our own.
5182 Thank
you.
5183 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you.
5184 We'll
proceed with Zbitnew and Associates.
Have I pronounced it correctly?
If you could introduce yourself before your presentation?
5185 Thank
you.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
5186 MS
ZBITNEW: Good afternoon, Madam Chair,
CRTC Commissioners and staff. My name is
Wallis Zbitnew. You said that very well. I always tell people, remember I'm a bit new.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
5187 MS
ZBITNEW: I'm a business woman in
5188 My
interest in the realization of a Christian radio station in
5189 The
importance of ethics and honesty in the business world is at the top of my
list. I avoid ‑‑
personally I avoid dealing with a person or a company if I find out they are
lying about a product or a service or if they are not up front with their costs
and quality of service they provide.
5190 Recently
on the national news information about the prevalence of everyday lying was a
shocking revelation to me. What messages
are being programmed into the brains of people to make them think that lying is
an acceptable form of communication? We
need help.
5191 One
step in the right direction would be providing an alternative radio station
which speaking truth and fact to people of all ages. Certainly our mayor, His Worship Pat Fiacco,
who is recently re‑elected to his third term in office by receiving
81 ‑‑ 84.1 percent of the vote is popular because we, the
citizens of
5192 Similarly
positive effects from an alternative Christian radio station would enhance the
spirit of our mayor's I Love Regina campaign.
Broadcasting positive music and messages through the airwaves by
establishing a Christian radio station in
5193 As
a thought doctor, I know the impact of both negative and positive sights,
sounds, words and music on our minds. As
a mother of three and a grandmother of two, I know the influence of the media
on the minds and lives of my children.
It is the responsibility of the community to provide alternatives for
our people so they can make the right choices for successful living.
5194 Christian
radio has not been available for them as a choice. Now is the time to go forward with a
Christian radio station in
5195 People
are complex beings. In order to function
fully and live a balanced life, we need to nurture every aspect of who we are,
including the following capacities:
Intellectual, emotional, physical, psychological and spiritual. Life tends to be out of balance when we
neglect nurturing one or more of those five areas. Radio in
5196 Current
radio music does not satisfy the spiritual nourishment my soul desires. Other Christians agree, and several ‑‑
specifically Nina Braelean and Iris Williams ‑‑ took on the
task of bringing in big named ‑‑ a big name Christian singer,
Michael W. Smith, to the Conexus Art Centre.
As well, Canadian gospel singers who have performed in
5197 During
my 30 years in
5198 I
would now like to share a few words regarding my involvement with Rotary. Rotary International is a service club with
approximately 1.2 million members in more than 200 countries and geographical
areas. As past president of the Regina
South Rotary Club, I am familiar with implementing rotary's four‑way test
in my business and personal life.
5199 It
consists of 28 powerful and effective words which are: Of the things we think, say or do, number 1,
is it the truth? Number 2, is it fair to
all concerned? Number 3, will it build
goodwill and better friendships? Number
4, will it be beneficial to all concerned?
The implementation of something as simple but profound as a four‑way
test contributes to the integrity Rotary has enjoyed for a hundred years. Worldwide projects in education, health,
literacy and the environment are carried out in truth, honesty and
accountability because the values inherent in the four‑way test are
adhered to by Rotarians.
5200 Similarly,
a Christian radio station in
5201 The
question is asked, can
5202 Currently
we were not hearing the values and standards we cherish on regular radio
stations, and we're willing to pay the utmost to achieve the highest standard
for ourselves and future generations.
5203 The
audience is here in
5204 Thank
you for considering our request. The
impact of Christian radio will go on into eternity.
5205 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you.
5206 We
will now proceed with the Lighthouse To All Nations intervention. If you could, again, introduce yourself
before speaking?
5207 Thank
you.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
5208 MR.
OGUNRINDE: Good afternoon, Madam
Chairman, Commissioners and CRTC staff.
I'm here as a parent, an educator and a pastor. I'm a parent of three mature ladies ages 21,
19 and 17 and, as an educator, upwards of seven years in the teaching career at
the
5209 But
now as a spiritual leader, a pastor of a multi‑racial and multi‑ethnic
congregation, my responsibility is to help mold, guard and guide the moral
conscience of our society, also to help educate and promote values that make
for a safe and healthy society.
5210 As
an immigrant, I have been truly amazed and grateful for a blessed country such
as ours. And one of the factors that
make
5211 Moral
and family values that we once held so dearly are being eroded and
mortgaged. We have pursued economic
opportunities to the detriment of a wellbeing ‑‑ of the
wellbeing of the family.
5212 Our
society has become a stressful one. We
have become a workaholic society. We
have become intoxicated with success in order to ‑‑ and in
order to maintain our insatiable appetite for luxury and opulence ‑‑
we have become intoxicated with success in order to maintain our insatiable
appetite for luxury and opulence.
Consequently we have made room ‑‑ we have made no room
for a healthy family lifestyle. The
cultural gangs, youth and young offenders, arson, substance and drug abuse,
prostitution are becoming rampant. Kids
as old as 9 to 12 year‑olds are increasingly committing acts that greatly
alarm us.
5213 At
the heart of this is neglect. I'm
concerned about the legacy that we're going to pass on to the next generation
that comes behind us. From personal
experience, I understand a nation is as strong as its foundation. The family is the foundation of our
society. I also believe that the thought
in the mind of a man is mostly the function of his action. In other words, our thoughts determine or
governs the rule and conduct of our lives.
5214 Music
does not only entertain, it educates and has a message that is able to
influence one's action. Much of what
young people listen to today have messages that are often subliminal, promoting
drugs, violence, suicide, vigilante justice, self‑destruction, bodily
harm and rape. This kind of music offers
no hope.
5215 As
an pastor, I've often been on the receiving end. While young people are being destroyed, I
have been left to pick up the broken pieces, devastated lives, and deal with the
trauma from the misguided actions instigated by messages of the music. In some situations I have had to deal with
grief counselling of families that have been affected through the death of
young people, with the often difficult task of conducting funerals of our young
people. I have been very distressed and
helpless as I see young talents and potentials wasted and destroyed.
5216 When
the music that young people listen to promotes all kinds of crime listed above,
it can no longer be tolerated as entertainment but crime against humanity.
5217 And
in our fast ‑‑ and in our fast‑paced society where
there's little or no supervision of what young people are listening to, it is
important to promote a safe alternative music that promotes moral values,
respect for humanity and authority, and a love for our communities and, above
all, a respect and reference for God.
5218 This
is why I'm in support of the application for Touch Canada Broadcasting
Incorporated that will provide contemporary gospel music. This kind of music is fast gaining popularity
among young people, including my own children and their friends, and the young
in our congregation and our fast‑growing immigrant communities.
5219 The
contemporary gospel music is being produced in many styles by a multitude of
artists and musicians on many successful market labels in
5220 Around
the city you can hear this great music piped into the floor spaces of the
Shoppers Drug Mart and Wal‑Mart and in other public and private
spaces. Contemporary gospel music is
becoming of interest to local and visiting bands in great numbers at various
concert venues. The only place
contemporary gospel music is not available is in
5221 My
reason for being here today is on behalf of our local airwaves. I believe it is time for all our community,
for our kids, and the young and old to be able to tune in on their radio dial
to popular gospel music. We have all the
other popular music formats to listen to on local radios, but we are still
missing this one.
5222 As
a spiritual leader in these troubled times and working in a city neighbourhood
having so many troubled youth, I think it's appropriate and long overdue to
have a community FM radio station with a positive message for all.
5223 On
no less than about three or four occasions I have been in a crisis intervention
where I have been to the police station and also I've been to court trying to
wrestle young kids out of the hand of the government to say that we can
actually give them hope. And in most
cases, it has been a situation of arson and destruction of properties and all
because of some of the influences that they get because of what they listen to.
5224 My
experience has been that communities that offer FM contemporary gospel music,
are listening to it and playing it all the time, one can be assured and secure
that the message being aired any time of the day or night does not require
parental concerns for monitoring. This
kind of music educates and offer hope.
5225 I'm
aware that other provinces and media centres in
5226 Madam
Chairperson and Board, I ask that you give strong consideration to my
concluding remarks. It's time to repair
the foundation of our society through a wholesome message of contemporary
gospel music. It's time for wholesome
family oriented community minded radio in our city. It's time to give hope. It's time to grant an alternative.
5227 Thank
you very much.
5228 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you.
5229 I
would ask Miss Shelan Schnell ‑‑ have I pronounced this
correctly?
5230 Thank
you.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
5231 MS
SCHNELL: Yeah, my name is a tongue‑twister. My name is Shelan Schnell and thank you for
your time and allowing me to speak today.
I am here to speak on behalf of teachers who are doing their best to
teach children who will positively affect the work and those around them with
enthusiasm and courage in a world that sometimes is uncertain and dangerous.
5232 There's
much opportunity in our country right now for our children, but there's also a
great deal of breakdown in families and communities which are seriously
impacting the safety and support of our children each day. As a classroom teacher of grade 1 and 2
students, I see each day how at risk our re children are.
5233 The
culture of gangs, suicide, murder, drugs, prostitution and crime is more common
among young people these days. Violence
is so familiar to our students, and the media is a huge influence on our
children and is impacting them in many ways.
Music has a lot to do with our society.
It is a part of everyone's lives, especially our youth. And what a lot of youth are listening to does
nothing to stop destructive thoughts and actions but even sometimes encourages
them.
5234 In
schools we are trying to teach students respect for others and themselves,
kindness, empathy, tolerance, caring, peace and self‑worth, but it is
difficult when so much in media goes against that, including music.
5235 I
just have a couple of examples of what students are listening to, and a popular
artist right now is Fergie. And one of
her songs, London Bridges, says, "All my girls get down on the floor back
to back, drop it down real low. I'm such
a lady but I'm dancing like a ho 'cause you know I don't give a F, so here we
go."
5236 And
another popular artist is Beck, and he says in his music, "I want to defy
the logic of all sex laws. Let the
handcuffs slip off your wrists. I'll let
you be my chaperon at the halfway home."
And then one of his songs ‑‑ the title of his songs is
"Fing With My Head".
5237 And
these are only two examples, but the influence of what is heard in media can
also be heard with my students as young as grade 1 and 2. Just yesterday one of my grade 2 boys said to
one of the grade 2 girls, "You're hot." And a couple of years ago a grade 1 boy said
to another girl, "I want to have sex with you." And a grade 2 boy said to another teacher,
"You have a nice A‑S‑S."
And we had to suspend one of my grade 2 boys a couple of years ago for
trying to hump girls on the playground.
5238 I
supervise in the lunch room each day, and the students asked if they could
bring music in to listen to during lunch.
Now, these are grade 1 and 2 students, so I didn't think they would
bring anything that would be inappropriate to play in a Catholic school. But as we had the music on, all of a sudden a
song came on with the F word, and I had to turn it off and I had to start
previewing any CDs that came and that they brought in.
5239 Right
now there's music out there that is becoming more and more popular each day,
and many people are tapping into this positive message of the contemporary
Christian music. And as a young adult, I
have stopped listening to radio and buying CDs that do not have a positive
message which promote my values and morals.
5240 I'm
lucky to have Max Digital on my TV where I can listen to a contemporary
Christian channel at home. Most of my
friends are now listening to the contemporary Christian music also. We find the messages are important in our
lives, they're life‑giving, and they're worthwhile to listen to. And I would love to have access to that music
24/7, whether in my car, at school, or in my radio.
5241 And
I believe is it time for everyone in our community, especially our youth, to be
able to tune in to popular contemporary Christian music on the radio. I think it is important to hear music and to
be exposed to a message that says to them that they're valued and loved. And I believe
5242 Many
teachers, I know, play music in their classrooms and even have the radio
playing while students are working on projects.
And this would be a great station for them to play during the day and
not have to worry about the content, whether its announcers are using curses or
crude language or even disrespectful words or music.
5243 And
I know I've had to turn off the radio sometimes in the morning, when I've had
students come in early to help me, because of the content. And I know many other provinces and cities
throughout
5244 Thank
you all very much for letting me appear before the Commission today.
5245 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you.
5246 I
would now ask the Regina Evangelical and Ministerial Association, if you could
also introduce yourself?
5247 Thank
you.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
5248 MR.
BERGEN: Good afternoon.
5249 I
represent ‑‑ my name is Clay Bergen, and I represent the
Regina Evangelical Ministerial Association.
Thank you for taking the time to hear my comments in favour of the
application of Touch Canada for Regina and not Saskatoon, but I could be there
for Saskatoon, I guess, but ‑‑ being born and raised in
Winnipeg, it was never my dream to live in Regina.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
5250 MR.
BERGEN: After living in the
5251 I
travel across our country and when I get close to
5252 Explosion
of the Internet has filled some of that void by allowing me to listen to
stations that play Christian gospel music.
However, that's limited to my computer and/or paying for a satellite
radio station. I believe that we should
have this format of gospel Christian music available to the
5253 As
a chairman of the Regina Ministerial Association, I represent over 10,000
individuals in
5254 As
a CEO of one of those non‑profit organizations, it would allow me the
avenue to present my message to my city.
As a former minister in
5255 This
is not a bandwagon that I have just jumped on.
For the past four years I have been involved in the community FM radio
station, 91.3 CJTR as a member and a host for a Sunday morning talk show called
New Times. This weekly show has allowed
us to share what is happening around our city and community.
5256 New
Song is another radio show that highlights the music for local artists, that I
have been involved with in the station.
Our shows have also helped to raise the funds for this community‑owned
station. However, it's been our goal to
see the style of radio expanded to a 24‑hour, seven‑day‑a‑week
format as we have established a positive track record in broadcasting. We have also been involved in training DJs,
broadcast hosts, and running a sound board for these programs.
5257 But
finally, these are all good reasons to approve the application for Touch Canada
Broadcasting, but the bottom line for me is this: If there were people in a burning building
and I had the ability to go in and save them, it would be imperative upon me to
go and save them. I have that
opportunity now.
5258 We
have a lot of hurting people in our city that need help. They need a message of hope, peace and
love. That is what this station is all
about. Touch Canada Broadcasting has a
proven track record. Now we have the
chance to offer that message of hope through the gospel music to
5259 Thank
you for your consideration.
5260 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Vice‑Chair Arpin...?
5261 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
5262 Throughout
this proceeding, I think the main question that arose was, could the market
support another radio station. I know
that you're not advertisers. You're two
pastors, musicians, teachers and ‑‑ but do you think that the
market ‑‑ because obviously Touch will have to make some money
in order to sustain the level of production that they want to do in this
market. And do you think there is a
market for a gospel music radio station in
5263 MR.
BERGEN: Well, I'll speak to that. This morning, the place ‑‑
the office that I rent is a Christian owner.
And I went past his office and I saw him there and I said, "I'm
making this presentation today."
And I said, "If you were given the opportunity to advertise your
business" ‑‑ he's a realtor in our city ‑‑
"through a gospel Christian music station, would you do it?" And he totally agreed that he would do
that. And I believe there are
resources. There are Christian businesses
here in town that would support this radio station and the values that this
radio station stands for, that they do not support in other radio media. And so I believe there is an opportunity for
that commercial buy ‑‑ that would need to be here.
5264 MS
SCHNELL: I just ‑‑ also
I know in my church that we have a bulletin that goes out in the back. There's ‑‑ people can
advertise their businesses, and I know there's 25 businesses that are being
advertised in the church bulletin.
That's just one church in the city out of many.
5265 MS
ZBITNEW: I did address that question in
my presentation and, as I said, if there's something that's a burning issue
that you and I, whether we're Christians or not, we'll find a way. If there's something ‑‑
let's say that we're dying of cancer and there's a drug that we can buy that's
going to cure us and it costs $100,000, do you think we'd be able to come up
with that $100,000? I'm saying yes, we
can.
5266 Christians
are people who, by and large, are used to tithing. And on top of their tithing, they do ‑‑
they have sacrificial giving. And if
it's something that I really want for the good of my family, myself, my
children, my community, I will forego some of the other things in my life.
5267 And
I believe I'm speaking on behalf of many Christians in
5268 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Thank you very much. Thank you.
5269 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, gentlemen and
ladies. I believe we will take a 15‑minute
break. That means, by my watch, it is
ten after four and so it will be 25 after four.
5270 Thank
you.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing
at 1610 / Suspension à 1610
‑‑‑ Upon resuming
at 1630 / Reprise à 1050 1630
5271 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Order please. Madam Secretary...?
5272 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
5273 I
would now like to call, as a panel, the following two interveners, Circle of
Aboriginal Community Voices and Mills Productions. If they are present, if they could come
forward for their presentation of their intervention?
‑‑‑ Pause
5274 THE
SECRETARY: And I gather they are not
present. Therefore, we will hear the
last appearing intervener for the
‑‑‑ Pause
5275 THE
SECRETARY: Again, for the record, if you
could just simply introduce yourself?
And you will have ten minutes for your presentation.
5276 Thank
you.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
5277 MR.
COWIE: Thank you very much.
5278 And
before we begin, Madam Chair, for the record, we apologize for missing our
earlier appointment today. We were ‑‑
got a little mixed up in our efforts. In
any event, thank you for allowing us to appear after all, after being tardy.
5279 Madam
Chair, Members of the Commission, my name is Bruce Cowie, vice president of
Harvard Broadcasting. Seated on my right
is Michael Olstrom, Harvard's station group manager. And on my left is Debra McLaughlin of Strategic
Inc. Seated in the back row on my right
is Tina Svedhal, vice president investments.
And Rob Malcolmson, our legal counsel.
5280 At
the outset, let me thank you for granting us this opportunity to appear and
present our intervention commenting on the applications for new radio stations
here in Harvard's home market,
5281 Harvard
owns and operates three radio stations in this city; a full‑service
country AM and adult contemporary FM and a mainstream rock FM. The city's other three radio stations are
operated by Rawlco Radio. The two
stations operated by Golden West Broadcasting in nearby
5282 Suffice
it to say,
5283 However,
not all markets can support competitive entry at any given time. Indeed recent Commission decisions is that
new licences will be issued where, one, when PBIT levels of the incumbent
operator are such that the market can accommodate new entry with minimal impact
on the existing services or, two, in markets where PBIT levels are low but
economic indicators nevertheless demonstrate that market growth will facilitate
a new entry.
5284 Madam
Chair, the ‑‑ neither of these factors are present in
5285 While
PBITs are a key indicator of marketability to accommodate new entries, we
recognize that low PBITs are not necessarily determinative. We understand that if growth prospects of a
market are sufficiently positive, new licences are sometimes issued but, in
5286 Michael...?
5287 MR.
OLSTROM:
5288 Similarly,
the population growth expectation has also been significantly below the
national average and is forecast to remain at only that of the national average
going forward. Retail sales have also
been sporadic. In two of the past four
years, retail sales in
5289 Going
forward, the projections are for marginally positive growth but at a rate that
is only slightly better than inflation and certainly below the growth expected
for the country.
5290 Financial
Post Markets concurs with this negative forecast. The
5291 Contract
this to a market like Medicine Hat with a population approximately one‑third
of Regina, it is currently sitting at a retail sales per capita which is 58
percent above the Canadian average and the growth anticipated for the next four
years is an increase of 34 percent. As
we discussed earlier this week, that is an example of an economically healthy
market.
5292 One
of the factors underpinning this unsteady performance is lack of diversity in
the economic base. The Conference Board
of Canada assigns ratings to markets based on the breadth and range of
industries that support the local economy. A score of one represents maximum
diversity. Anything below one is an
indication of the degree to which shifts in any one industry sector ‑‑
or industrial sector will impact the overall performance of the market.
5293 MR.
COWIE: So what we have here in
5294 In
Moose Jaw 2006 retail sales were fully 25 percent above the national average
while
5295 Earlier
this year the Commission denied applications for new entrants in Moose Jaw but
did grant a third licence to the incumbent broadcaster, Golden West, on the
basis that a new competitor in Moose Jaw would have an undue negative ‑‑
a negative impact on existing stations.
In broadcasting decision 2006‑190 the Commission stated as
follows: "The Commission has
analyzed the Moose Jaw radio market and based on low level of profitability of
the only incumbent radio broadcaster in the market, the decline in over the
last ten years and the modest projection for growth in the economy in the
upcoming years, the Commission concludes that Moose Jaw is not able to absorb
the introduction of a new broadcaster at this time without having an undue
negative impact on the existing radio stations in the market."
5296 And
5297 While
Harvard supports competition and diversity and all radio markets are not
created equally, the unfortunate reality is that
5298 For
these reasons, we urge the Commission to approach licensing in
5299 We
thank you for this opportunity and would be pleased to answer any questions.
5300 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
5301 Vice‑Chair
Arpin...?
5302 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: I read your conclusion but, as
you are aware, there are other type of less commercial, I will say, type of
applicant like the Christian music/gospel music applicant. There is two Aboriginal applicant as
well. Are ‑‑ when
you're saying no new radio station for
5303 MR.
COWIE: All three of those would be
exempt from our recommendation, so we would not object to those.
5304 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: You would not object to
them. The ‑‑ I did ask
earlier, Rawlco, regarding staffing reduction in the market over the last four
years, at least the data that the Commission has was covering two ‑‑
2002 to 2005. The 2006 numbers are not
either in or compiled, but I was noticing that there was a reduction of people
working in the radio sector in the market.
5305 I'm
asking the question because I've heard and read that the ‑‑
somewhere that the incumbent have provide ‑‑ are ‑‑
have increased staffing in order to provide better quality programming, better
service to the community. Now, the data
that the Commission has gathered over the last years is showing the
contrary. Do you have any comment on
that?
5306 MR.
COWIE: Well, I would ask ‑‑
we did hear that discussion, and I would ask whether that was exclusively for
the
5307 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Yeah, it's ‑‑
I'm ‑‑ I was working at the
5308 MR.
COWIE: Okay.
5309 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: I was not talking
5310 MR.
COWIE: Well, we have looked at that and
we may be, at the moment, one lower than we were last year, but we have not had
any kind of reduction like that over that period of time.
5311 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: I understand that you're
reporting somehow person‑years rather than the actual individual, so that
may be the thing that makes the difference.
5312 MR.
COWIE: Well, we in this case counted
bodies.
5313 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: You counted bodies?
5314 MR.
COWIE: Yes.
5315 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: And if you are returning back to,
say, four years ago in 2002, have you reduced staffing since the ‑‑
since that period?
5316 MR.
COWIE: No, we have not.
5317 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: You have not. The ‑‑ I will also ask Mr.
Paul Martin about government advertising expenditures, how significant
advertising ‑‑ government advertising placement is for your
group?
5318 MR.
COWIE: It ‑‑ it is
significant and it is also fleeting.
That comes and goes.
5319 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Yeah, that ‑‑
but ‑‑
5320 MR.
COWIE: But in the current context, and
we're in a time leading up to a provincial election here, and I won't give you
a number. That would be revealing
secrets, but I would tell you it is a significant amount of money to our radio
station.
5321 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Because ‑‑ well,
I'm asking the question because I know that it is, generally speaking,
volatile. It goes by cycle and ‑‑
5322 MR.
COWIE: Yes.
5323 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: ‑‑ and it ‑‑ so in terms of
advertising category, what are the main category of advertisers that and ‑‑
that I could find here in
5324 MR.
COWIE: Retail advertisers?
5325 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Yes, by category; automotive,
furniture ‑‑
5326 MR.
COWIE: Oh.
5327 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: ‑‑ sports or whatever.
5328 MR.
COWIE: Well, I'll have Michael refer to
that.
5329 MR.
OLSTROM: You mentioned a couple off the
top. Automotive is a major advertiser
with us, as are a number of the furniture dealers. We also have restaurants and, as mentioned as
well, government are significant advertisers as well.
5330 MR.
COWIE: In addition to that, because your
AM station ‑‑ it operates in an agriculture based economy
here, we do a high level of agri business.
That, too, is changeable with crop conditions and all of those things,
but that has been a very important part of the business we do, and it ‑‑
it's ‑‑ and as you know, one of ‑‑ our AM
radio station is still one of the top radio stations in the country in terms of
audience and service.
5331 So
it's ‑‑ as long as that retained ‑‑ is
retained over time, it's of benefit to us, but it's ‑‑ we get
a wide range. We do a lot of work with
some of the gentlemen you had here today on the music scene with some of the
clubs, you know, particularly the pub and all of those. We're very active in that scene and also on
our FM radio stations, so it's a pretty wide ‑‑
5332 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Array of advertisers ‑‑
5333 MR.
COWIE: Yes.
5334 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: ‑‑ that you would ‑‑
5335 MR.
COWIE: Yes.
5336 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Well, I thank you for your
presentation. I think you're conclusions
are clear, and that will surely ‑‑ the Commission will have to
take them very seriously into consideration, so thank you very much.
5337 MR.
COWIE: Thank you.
5338 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
5339 I
just have a few questions. There's a
tally on the presentation you gave today on page 5, you talked about retail
sales indicators and where did that information come from?
5340 MR.
COWIE: I'm going to ask Debra McLaughlin
to respond to that.
5341 MS
McLAUGHLIN: The now infamous Financial
Post Markets.
5342 THE
CHAIRPERSON: The FP?
5343 MS
McLAUGHLIN: Yes.
5344 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I am also then going to ask the same question
I asked of Rawlco. I'm aware that you
had applications in, I'm going to say, from 2000 on in
5345 MR.
COWIE: We certainly will do that, and
I'll ask Tina Svedhal to respond to the first part of your question.
5346 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, she ‑‑
you can do it in confidence.
5347 MR.
COWIE: All right. We'll do it this way.
5348 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
5349 MR.
COWIE: Thank you.
5350 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Just because I certainly
don't want to put you in, you know ‑‑ and in terms of the
gearing up for
5351 MR.
COWIE: I'll have Tina Svedhal respond to
that. My understanding is we are not.
5352 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Including all of the
prelaunch expenses, are they being capitalized or are they just being part of
the expenses?
5353 MS
SVEDHAL: Yes, Madam Chair, I'll respond
in our confidential response in a week.
5354 THE
CHAIRPERSON: That sounds perfect.
5355 MS
SVEDHAL: Just to clarify, do you want it
from 2000 forward or just the last two years?
You did mention 2000 earlier.
5356 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well, I would actually say '99 because
the ‑‑ if I recall the first hearing you appeared at was in
October 2000 in
5357 MS
SVEDHAL: Sure.
‑‑‑ Undertaking /
Engagement
5358 THE
CHAIRPERSON: If you could?
5359 MS
SVEDHAL: Sounds good. Thank you.
5360 MR.
COWIE: I was going to say a licence I
thought we should have won by the way.
I'm just kidding.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
5361 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Persistent pays, Mr.
Cowie. Thank you.
5362 MR.
COWIE: Thank you very much.
‑‑‑ Pause
5363 THE
CHAIRPERSON: We're now proceeding to
Phase IV. Madam Secretary...?
5364 THE
SECRETARY: That's correct. Thank you, Madam Chair.
5365 Before
we proceed to Phase IV, I'd just like to indicate for the record that the
applicant, Radio CJVR, has filed with the Commission the ‑‑
their commitments they had made earlier for the Regina applications, which is a
breakdown of the estimated cost associated with their CTD initiatives, as well
as an amended table of their proposed spoken‑word commitments. This document will be placed on their
application file for anyone who wishes to review them.
5366 As
indicated, we are now proceeding to Phase IV in which applicants can reply to
all interventions that were filed on their application. Applicants will be asked to appear in reverse
order if they wish. And I would now ask
Natotawin Broadcasting if they wish to intervene at this point?
‑‑‑ Pause
5367 THE
SECRETARY: I see they're not
present. Then we will go with AVR.
‑‑‑ Pause
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
5368 MR.
BUCHANAN: Good afternoon, Madam Chair,
Members of the Commission, AVR does wish to have a short dialogue with the
Commission about the condition of licence relating to the two‑year period
or the implementation of local. Whether
we do that today or tomorrow in the context of
5369 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yeah, I think that's
fine. I just wanted the process to show
that this point of this
5370 MR.
BUCHANAN: Understood.
5371 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you very
much. Madam Secretary...?
5372 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you.
5373 I
would now call of Radio CJVR Ltd., if they wish to come forward at this ‑‑
for this phase?
‑‑‑ Pause
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
5374 MR.
SINGER: Good afternoon, Madam Chair,
Commissioners. CJVR would like to thank
the Commission for hearing our
5375 Finally,
I'd like to address those
5376 In
our mind, more broadcasters means more community support. We welcome the opportunity to promote and
support the
5377 Thank
you.
5378 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Singer.
5379 THE
SECRETARY: Now, with that, I'll call on
Touch Canada Broadcasting, if they wish to appear in Phase IV?
‑‑‑ Pause
5380 THE
SECRETARY: Please go ahead, Mr.
Hunsperger.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
5381 MR.
HUNSPERGER: Thank you, Madam Chair,
Members of the Commission.
5382 First
of all, we want to thank all of our supporting interveners, both appearing and
non‑appearing, with their letters and comments which we greatly
appreciate.
5383 We've
been advised by Commission counsel that you will permit us to clarify our
position with respect to two issues; local programming and balance, which were
points of contention during Phase I of our application. We greatly appreciate and thank you for this
opportunity.
5384 I
will first ask Malcolm Hunt, our network program director to address local programming.
5385 MR.
HUNT: Our Regina station, if approved,
will broadcast 98 hours of ‑‑ per week of local programming,
as defined by the Commission's current regulations and policies. These 98 hours are comprised of, one, 40
hours live to air made up of 3 hours of morning drive 6 to 9 a.m. and 5 hours
of afternoon drive 1 to 6 p.m. Monday to Friday.
5386 Number
2, 52 hours per week of voice track programming produced at our existing
facilities in
5387 Six
hours per week of locally, produced in
5388 I
apologize for any misunderstanding I may have caused in Phase I with respect to
this matter and I thank you for this clarification opportunity.
5389 MR.
HUNSPERGER: I will now address the issue
of balance. We do not believe that we
are a religious broadcaster as defined in the Commission's religious
broadcasting policy, public notice CRTC 1993‑78, rather we have always
considered our operations as gospel music stations which broadcast a minimum
amount of religious brokered spoken‑word programming for purely economic
reasons.
5390 On
page 7 of the public notice, CRTC 1993‑78, when defining what is ‑‑
a religious program is, the Commission states ‑‑ and I quote,
"It will not include religious music programs in which the spoken‑word
content is non‑religious."
5391 Since
none of our spoken‑word content in our music programs, for example, DJ
comment, human interest features is religious in nature, the vast majority of
our program one clearly does not fall under the religious policy. That leaves only the brokered spoken‑word
programming, which does of course does have a religious connotation.
5392 With
regards to this, I draw your attention to the list of stations we submitted in
Phase I, which currently broadcast the same brokered programs that we proposed
to carry in
5393 As
you can see, the majority of stations airing this type of programming do not
fall under that policy. They represent a
variety of formats ranging from country to ethnic. We are not for a moment suggesting that these
stations are religious. We believe,
however, that we, as a gospel music broadcaster, should be regulated in the
same manner as these stations.
5394 All
of this being said, we take our responsibilities regarding balanced programming
as mandated by the Broadcasting Act very seriously. We have over 20 years of combined on‑air
experience in our existing operations in
5395 In
conclusion, we are prepared to accept the Commission's general condition of
licence with respect to the religious policy, even though we don't consider
ourselves a religious broadcaster, if you deem it appropriate.
5396 Further,
if the Commission deems it appropriate, we would be willing to accept the
condition of licence capping the amount of brokered spoken‑word
programming at a maximum of 15 hours per week for the term of licence. This would represent 11 percent of our 126‑hour
broadcast week.
5397 We
are not prepared to accept a
5398 Thank
you.
5399 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
Hunsperger. Madam Secretary...?
5400 THE
SECRETARY: I would now call on Standard
Radio, if they wish to come forward at this phase?
‑‑‑ Pause
5401 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Feeling somewhat
schizophrenic, Mr. Buchanan, these days?
5402 MR.
BUCHANAN: ‑‑ tomorrow also.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
5403 MS
TAYLOR: Hello again. By the way, I'd like to mention that I have received
a number of e‑mails from my staff back in
5404 I
appreciate the opportunity, as well, to appear again today. I'd like to thank the appearing supporters
that we had earlier in the day. Some of
them did travel a great distance on our behalf, and we're very grateful.
5405 My
name's Sharon Taylor. I'm representing
Standard Radio with Mr. Grant Buchanan from McCarthy Tetrault, our legal
counsel. I just want to make a few brief
comments, the first of which I'd like to comment briefly on economics.
5406 We
believe that the economic indicators, that the
5407 The
section was titled, "
5408
5409 Labour
income growth has been robust with competition from
5410 I
believe that these are strong indicators, and there have been many others
presented in the last two days. I also
find it difficult to imagine that this growth is happening everywhere in
5411 While
it's clear that the current broadcasters are not keen on change in their
market, I think the indicators are positive for change.
5412 I'd
like to also comment briefly on format diversity. There is no new country music radio station
on FM in
5413 Locally
CKRM, the AM country station, sees strength in their listeners 55 and
older. Our station will appeal to a much
younger audience. Forty‑five
percent of our audience, according to our research, will be the return of
5414 Now
I would like to hopefully add some clarity to our Canadian Talent Development
position. In our application we promised
a minimum of $100,000 in cash per year over the seven‑year term. In our presentation we increased that amount
to $150,000 in cash per year. We were
comfortable putting this increase on the record during our presentation
yesterday. This increase did not match
or put our application ahead of other competing applicants in terms of CDT
expenditures.
5415 In
other words, although we uncovered certain needs that we wanted to fill, the
playing field for Canadian Talent Development remains the same.
5416 The
Saskatchewan Music Educators Association is frankly a group that we were just
not aware of when we were filing our application and helping to provide
instruments, education, music instruction and guidance to children in inner
city schools in
5417 We
hope that this clarification will help put to rest Madam Chair's opinion that
the CTD component was viewed as an auction.
Most sincerely if that were our intent, in true auction form we should
have, and I imagine we would have, outbid our competitors. In fact, this is something that has happened
more or less on the fly, if you will, at other hearings when applicants have
offered to increase commitments during the hearing process.
5418 This
is a four‑phase competitive hearing, and other applicants, should they
have felt aggrieved in any way, could have come forward in Phase II and
complained. This did not happen, which
should speak volumes about the other applicants' concerns.
5419 The
Commission clearly has the ability to allow these changes. That said, should the Commission feel that
the process in this case has been compromised, we guarantee that the
commitments made in our original application will be honoured as submitted,
pending your approval of course that they qualify.
5420 Should
the Commission grant us this licence as amended, we do intend to follow through
on the additional support that we outlined in our oral presentation.
5421 A
quick comment regarding the discussion regarding Mr. Grierson's(ph) comments on
national advertising. His contention is
the national advertising will not increase with another operator in the market
and, instead, national advertising will just be spread out thinner among all
the operators. I believe that Mr.
Grierson's rep house, CBS, presently represents 31 of the 34 radio stations in
the province. With that kind of strangle‑hold
on representation, I believe that competition in this area would be beneficial
to national advertisers.
5422 We
also cannot imagine that when adding a new exclusive format to the market that
national spending will not be, in some way, positively stimulated.
5423 Finally,
we have prepared and would like to submit a breakdown of our news
commitment. In total, we are offering
five hours and 46 minutes of news weekly, which is much more significant than
our original total which did not include our commitments to weather, road
conditions and our Sunday news magazine program. And to be clear, this is not a change to our
original application. It was always
there.
5424 Thank
you very much, and I'm glad that I got through at this time so that you could
understand me.
5425 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cugini...?
5426 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Ms Taylor, thank you.
5427 I,
too, got an e‑mail from my assistant in
5428 MS
TAYLOR: Very nice.
5429 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Because you did raise the issue
of the CTD and, in your discussion with Commissioner Cram yesterday, she did
make it clear that the Commission may decide to obligate you to the $700,000
level as originally submitted.
5430 I
just wanted to be absolutely clear, and you did provide some clarity today
that, as filed, that is how you would spend the $700,000. So just to be clear, it means that
Saskatchewan Music Educators Association, Radio Starmaker Fund, and the Canadian
Country Music Association would not receive any CTD?
5431 MS
TAYLOR: Could you repeat those groups
for me again ‑‑
5432 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Sure.
5433 MS
TAYLOR: ‑‑ please?
5434 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: What I have ‑‑
when we compare what was originally filed with what was said yesterday, the
organizations that are new to the list ‑‑
5435 MS
TAYLOR: Yes.
5436 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: ‑‑ were the Saskatchewan Music Educators Association ‑‑
5437 MS
TAYLOR: Correct.
5438 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: ‑‑ the Radio Starmaker Fund ‑‑
5439 MS
TAYLOR: Correct.
5440 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: ‑‑ and the Canadian Country Music Association?
5441 MS
TAYLOR: That's correct.
5442 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: So if the $700,000 were replies
as filed, these three organizations would not receive CTD?
5443 MS
TAYLOR: That's correct.
5444 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: And the other amounts as filed
would stay?
5445 MS
TAYLOR: You bet.
‑‑‑ Technical
difficulties / Problèmes techniques
5446 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: So ‑‑
5447 MS
TAYLOR: You were correct in all three
items that you listed. Those three
groups, the Saskatchewan Music Educators Association, the Canadian Country
Music Association, and Starmaker, were not in our original application.
5448 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: And you would accept, as a
condition of licence, the CTD expenditure as filed?
5449 MS
TAYLOR: Correct.
5450 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: Thank you very much.
5451 MS
TAYLOR: You're welcome.
5452 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Did you ‑‑
no. Thank you very much.
5453 MS
TAYLOR: Thank you.
5454 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary...?
5455 THE
SECRETARY: We now call on Newcap, if
they wish to appear in this phase?
‑‑‑ Pause
5456 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary?
5457 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
5458 Mr.
Maheu, you can go ahead.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
5459 MR.
MAHEU: Thank you very much.
5460 Good
afternoon, Madam Chair, members of the Commission, staff. Newcap would just like to take a couple of
moments here in Phase IV to address a number of points.
5461 First
and foremost, we'd like to thank the letters of support received from the
number of interveners who would like to see an oldies based classic hits radio
station by Newcap come to
5462 We'd
like to take a very short period of time, maybe two, two and a half minutes and
very quickly touch on some of the points raised in the Rawlco Radio
intervention heard earlier this afternoon.
First of all, just to clarify a point that the ‑‑ was
raised in that intervention and the question by the Commission of Mr.
Goldstein's report and where Mr. Goldstein was asked to comment on the
comparisons that we made in our opening remarks in our presentation for a new
station in Regina, where we took markets like St. John, New Brunswick and
Moncton, and so on, and basically gave the Commission information on the
average number of stations on a per capita basis and so on.
5463 Just
to clarify our intent on that, we did not see that as a steel sword piece of evidence
to say that this market needs or deserves more radio. It was more anecdotal, to give you a sense of
markets of a similar size and the range and scope of service that's available
in those markets. And we also tried to
choose markets that were similar in some ways to
5464 There
was a comment raised in the intervention earlier from Rawlco about new radio
stations, and I'm going to paraphrase because I don't know the transcript
but ‑‑ about how a new station coming to the market could
possibly upset the status quo as it relates to public service groups in
5465 There
was a mention made that community and business leaders were concerned about
their advertising messages being deluded, that they would lose their easy
access to interviews and advertising opportunities on the incumbent radio
stations, particularity the Rawlco stations and that ‑‑ I
believe it was mentioned that it would complicate their radio buying. Newcap does not believe that to be true at
all.
5466 I
don't really know what these folks were told, if anything, but that does not
seem to be based in fact at all. It's
our opinion that more radio in a community offers more avenues for service and
more access, not less. And also it's
been our experience in other markets where we operate where new applicants have
received licences and, all of a sudden, we're on the other end and we're facing
new emerging competition in markets, that a couple of things happen.
5467 Number
one, we get a lot better very quickly at what we do because competition always
makes everybody keener and sharper and more eager to please, and it's not that
we weren't doing a good job before, as the incumbent broadcasters are here, but
when new competition arrives, everybody moves their game up a level. At least that's been our experience.
5468 And
secondarily, we found that our level of service to the community, public
service groups, not‑for‑profit groups and charities also increased
because there were more radio stations in the market, looking to generate
goodwill and build themselves a business.
So just as a word to the business and community leaders in
5469 And
there are probably some out there that don't get their fair share of awareness
because there's just not enough time in a day on six radio stations in a market
to make everybody happy, and extra radio will give some of those folks an
opportunity to be heard.
5470 Mr.
Pringle on the Rawlco panel made some observations about the music that Newcap
was proposing for the market place, which is an oldies based classic hit
station, and I think Mr. Pringle said something to the effect that the major
music genres in the
5471 Mr.
Pringle also mentioned that the oldies formatting ‑‑ I think
his quote was, "Stations in
5472 Although
there are certainly some success stories, and we have one of them in Camrose
with CFCW playing country, but it's certainly targeted at a 45‑plus
audience. But oldies is still a very
viable format for adults aged 45 to 64.
And to have it as part of an oldies based classic hits format on the FM
band, we're very confident that there will be a great market for that radio
station, and the research certainly indicates that.
5473 And
then finally, very briefly, Mr. Rawlinson was speaking as part of his
intervention that even though the economic indicators for
5474 And
all we would have to say to respond to that is that even if it is true and it
may well be true, during those periods of time the incumbent broadcasters have
continued to do business in this marketplace and they made a profit, even if
that profit is somewhat below the Canadian average, there's all sorts of
reasons how those numbers come to be what they are, but they are in business
and having some success.
5475 The
Saskatchewan Government is certainly bullish on the economy and the future of
this province, and I'm sure
5476 I've
seen the newspaper ads in national newspapers as well and I would sum up only
by saying that we would like to take the province up on their invitation to open
a business in
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
5477 MR.
MAHEU: Thank you very much.
5478 If
you have any questions, I'd be happen to answer them.
5479 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Maheu. Madam Chair ‑‑ Madam
Secretary...?
5480 THE
SECRETARY: I get another promotion. Thank you, but I won't take your job.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
5481 THE
SECRETARY: Before we close the
proceedings for the
5482 This
completes the considerations of items 10 to 16 of the agenda, Madam Chair, and
we're ready to proceed with the
5483 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I'm happy to announce that
volume 3 is now finished, of the evidence, and we're moving north two and a
half hours. So Mr. Maheu, do you want a
few ‑‑ ten minutes to set up, and then we can go to
5484 Thank
you.
5485 THE
SECRETARY: Madam Chair, if I could ask
your indulgence?
5486 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
5487 THE
SECRETARY: I was just provided with the
Standard Radio spoken‑word commitments that they had promised they would
give, so that will also be placed on their application file. Thank you.
5488 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing
at 1725 / Suspension à 1725
‑‑‑ Upon resuming
at 1735 / Reprise à 1735
5489 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Order please. Madam Secretary...?
5490 THE
SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
5491 We
are now at the review of the
5492 The
new station would operate on frequency 91.5 megahertz, channel 218C1, and with
an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts, non‑directional antenna,
antenna height of 179.1 metres.
Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Rob Steele who will introduce his
colleagues, and you will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.
5493 Mr.
Steele...?
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
5494 MR.
STEELE: Thank you very much.
5495 Well,
good afternoon, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, Commission staff. I'm Rob Steele, president and CEO of Newcap,
and before we begin our presentation, I'll just re‑introduce our team
very briefly this time. To my ‑‑
starting at my right is David Murray, Glenda Spenrath, Mark Maheu, Sue
Stevenson and Brad Boechler.
5496 And
before we begin our presentation, I would like to put on the record a technical
change that we were required to make to our application by Industry
5497 I
would like to ask Mark Maheu now to present our proposal for a new classic hit
station in
5498 MR.
MAHEU: In preparing our application for
5499 Newcap
tested nine different formats by describing the musical sound and then playing
a short montage of that music to each respondent. The music formats most in demand were classic
hits being the most popular, followed by classic rock, and then by '60s and
'70s oldies.
5500 We
then examined only those musical styles that had a strong positive interest
from the respondents. The same three formats
emerged as the most in demand. '60s and
'70s oldies leads the way at 18 percent, classic hits at 15 percent, and
classic rock at 11 percent. According to
the listeners surveyed, the choice for
5501 In
5502 The
essence of this type of format is up tempo, fun and strongly rooted in the
great pop hits the target listener grew up with over the past 40 years. The station will also program a number of
music based features designed to entertain and engage listeners. We will air A Year in Your Ear, a review of
the music from a certain or particular year and the events and trends that
characterized that year.
5503 Sundays
from noon until six, it's Psychedelic Sunday with the best of classic rock and
classic hits from the psychedelic era, mid '60s through the mid '70s. And weekdays at noon it's The Original Album
Alphabet from Astral Weeks to Zooropa.
The classic album A to Z each day will go through the alphabet at least
ten letters per day.
5504 Oldies
based classic hits music is the foundation of our new radio station proposal,
but to make our offering complete, we have also proposed an extensive schedule
of news and information programming to address the needs and wants of listeners
as they tune in throughout the day.
5505 MS
STEVENSON: As we pointed out yesterday,
radio's biggest advantage is to be resolutely local and live. For this format, it is even more
important. The baby boomer audience that
we will primarily serve depends significantly on radio for information.
5506 So
once again, we decided to increase our news commitment to 5 hours and 45
minutes of which 75 percent would be local, complemented by engaging compelling
information, along with community and local entertainment features.
5507 In
addition to 81 newscasts per week, our news room of four full‑time and
one part‑time journalist will bring context to the news with 35 behind‑the‑news
one‑minute public affair segments.
And three other features, our listener poll, Live Tonight, and Inside
Saskatoon. Our programming staff will
develop a number of other features to reach out and involve our listeners,
including our community event updates and Your Town.
5508 For
our adult audience, the news will contain more than just the day's events. It will also provide investment news for
those interested in mutual funds, RRSPs, and the market, health news and tips
for the baby boomer population and lifestyle news for an active community. As well, the announcers will be encouraged to
go beyond talk about music, weather or traffic, to engage the audience with
elements of interest to them.
5509 At
Newcap Radio, our corporate philosophy is to give back to each community. We accomplish this in various ways, from
Christmas drives for food in
5510
5511 And
now to speak to the economic outlook that makes us confident we can sustain
this service, here's Brad Boechler.
5512 MR.
BOECHLER: Thanks, Sue. Madam Chair, we made the case for a positive
economic outlook for
5513 While
the population's ‑‑ while the province's population was
declining in the late 1990s, the bright spot was
5514 In
2006 total income in
5515 Retail
sales is also an area where
5516 While
5517 We
are also convinced that the citizens of
5518 We
believe that
5519 MR.
MAHEU: When you are running a radio
station focused on older music, you have to look at the Canadian Talent
Development activities a little differently than you would on a current based
music radio station. So while on news
stations like our alternative rock station in
5520 Instead,
we believe that our best contribution can be one to the grassroots, the new
learners in music and those continuing to learn, as well as a national
organization that helps take emerging acts to the next level.
5521 So
we're proposing to devote $215,000 each year, or just a million and a half
dollars over the course of the first licence term, to the development of
Canadian talent. $90,000 each year will
go to the Radio Starmaker Fund, and we have asked them to direct that money to
5522 SaskMusic
will receive $85,000 each year from Newcap for two streams of their programs;
for emerging artists and for new artists.
The emerging artist stream will be directed toward educational programs
on how to break into foreign markets, including funding to attend international
music trade fairs. The new artist stream
will include an education strand as well for live performance development and
for public relations.
5523 Madam
Chair, you have heard us say this before, but we believe it, that it bears
repeating again. In an environment
characterized by an increasing competition for listening time, with
increasingly narrow music niches being available on the Internet and from
satellite, not to mention today's technologies like 95 radio stations, or
whatever, being available on your cell phone, local radio needs to break some
new ground in some new markets.
5524 Our
best chance to fill the most popular sounds that people want to hear is with
local radio, compelling radio with high quality stereo sound and local content
that only a local radio station can deliver.
More stations providing greater choices to listeners means a stronger,
sustainable future for local radio.
5525 Earlier
Brad Boechler spoke of the prosperity in
5526 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I hate to ask you to stay
again, Mr. Maheu. The ‑‑
we have problems again.
5527 MR.
MAHEU: Technical difficulties. Please stand by?
‑‑‑ Technical
difficulties / Problèmes techniques
5528 MR.
MAHEU: Is that okay, Madam Chair,
to ‑‑
5529 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Please ‑‑
5530 MR.
MAHEU: No problem.
5531 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Please go ahead.
5532 MR.
MAHEU: We believe that Newcap has
provided an excellent application for
5533 I'd
like to thank you for our time and attention.
We'd be pleased to answer any questions you might have about our
proposal.
5534 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
5535 Commissioner
Pennefather...?
5536 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: The journey continues. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We'll discuss your application beginning with
programming and moving on through the talent development and economic analysis,
and perhaps end up with a discussion similar to the one we had regarding the
5537 Looking
at the programming, the first area, I'd like to just touch base on ‑‑
we've talked about this before, is the indicated programming. And just to clarify on the August 14th
deficiency, you mentioned ‑‑ I think it's a similar issue we
raised before in the other application.
You've indicated nearly a hundred percent of your programming will be
locally produced with the exception of some syndicated. So could you clarify which parts of your
feature programming might be syndicated, how many hours of programming would
this syndication represent, do you envision any other syndicated programming,
and will it be produced nationally or internationally?
5538 MR.
MAHEU: Thank you.
5539 Our
approach right now for our proposal in
5540 The
only time that we would consider running some syndicated programming ‑‑
and we wouldn't be able to tell you with great specificity at this point
whether it be international or domestically produced syndicated
programming ‑‑ is there are some syndicated program in ‑‑
programs available that touch on the oldies genre and the classic hits
genre. They're more rockumentaries or
documentary type of programs, instalment programs that could be aired on the
radio station over a number of weeks.
5541 And
if we did run those programs, I would say it would be less than two hours a
week of syndicated programming. We've
also proposed that the radio station not implement any voice tracking between 6
a.m. and midnight on a Monday‑through‑Sunday basis, that we are
live or live to air with people in the studio.
5542 And
the only time we would not have somebody on the radio, quote on quote, behind a
microphone is when we are running some station produced programming. Psychedelic Sunday, for instance, could be a
program that would be possibly hosted by a morning team or an afternoon or a
music department person that would not be there doing the show life per se, but
it would be produced in station, aired on the station on the weekend, and there
would be somebody in the studio running that program and available to do
surveillance information and service on the air on a live basis.
5543 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
5544 That
helps amplify what you have in response to question 3 wherein you did say,
we'll be nearly a hundred percent, include one or two hours per week, but it
helps to understand that you're not talking about a hundred percent period.
5545 Moving
on to news, information and within the spoken‑word programming, we have
your attachment again ‑‑ and thank you for that ‑‑
laying out the scheduled news and the non‑news. A similar question that I asked, I think
yesterday, was the increase from your original application in terms of the
numbers of news packages which would have been produced by two journalist
announcers and one news director.
Considering the increase, would this result in an increase in staff and
numbers of journalists you propose to hire?
And if so, would the financial statement be revised?
5546 MR.
MAHEU: The financial statement and our
proposal for program spend and our business plan would remain as it is. We believe that we have an adequate number of
people in those news positions to accomplish what we've proposed, even with the
increase up to 5 hours and 45 minutes of news and information per week, and
then a total of 20 hours of spoken word, so there would be no change to our
business plan.
5547 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: We discussed previously
your approach which is the same, the structure is the same; scheduled news and
then non‑news. And your strategy,
I believe, is the same to increase the news component as a result of the
current context for radio ‑‑ in the radio environment, and we
discussed why you didn't increase the non‑news section as such. Let me ask a slightly different question,
looking ahead ‑‑ and we'll discuss this in more detail ‑‑
we have a different median age here and a different demographic. Why the same approach?
5548 MR.
MAHEU: The demographic for this radio
station is very similar to another proposal you've heard recently. What's different about this one, and we found
it quite interesting that
5549 But
what's interesting about this one is that there seems to be equal appeal for
this format across the three demographic groups of 35‑44, 45‑54 and
55 to 64. The other difference this as
well, although the median age changes on this one from 48 to 49, it ‑‑
the interesting thing about it is that the skew is a little bit different. This one is more female skewed than
male. The other proposal that we had
talked about was more male skewed, and I think that is basically a function of
the marketplace and what music and what formats are available in the
market. It's slightly different or
perceived to be slightly different by listeners in
5550 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Yes ‑‑
5551 MR.
MAHEU: ‑‑ and information to ‑‑
5552 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: ‑‑ that was my question.
5553 MR.
MAHEU: Sorry, it's a long proceed to get
to the question you asked ‑‑ is people who enjoy this kind of
music are of a certain age predominantly, and the real heart and soul of the
format, although it appeals 35 to 64, the real heart and soul appeal of the
radio station is in that 45 to 59 age group, so it's very similar to the other
proposal.
5554 And
although it's skewed slightly more to women than to men would ‑‑
the only thing that would change in the way we would approach the news ‑‑
we would still take the same approach in the news and information that we have
in other proposals, but given the fact that the target is slightly more female
skewed than the male will have an impact on the topicality that we employ on
the radio station as some of the things we talk about, and it would also
probably manifest itself ‑‑ and I'm going to ask Sue to touch
on this briefly, too. It would manifest
itself likely in some of the feature programming that we do and some of the
things that we cover and the topics that we cover to make sure that we are
delivering on the needs and wants of a female based target audience on the
radio station.
5555 But
it is ‑‑ it's still pretty close to 50/50, so if we were to be
operating this radio station in Saskatoon with this target group and operating
another one with the exact same format in another market, the news and
information and the spoken word on the radio stations, the amount is the same,
but the topics and the issues that we would focus on or do more of will be
based on the targeting of the radio station.
5556 MS
STEVENSON: All right, as Mark mentioned,
we would skew the topics on the radio station somewhat. That's not to say we wouldn't touch on a
number of similar topics, money matters, but perhaps health and lifestyle
issues might get a more prominent role because we're skewed more female. You know, there's a bit of a different
dynamic, and our programming would have to reflect that.
5557 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: That's understood. It was just the pattern is exactly the same,
so I just wanted to fill in the blanks a little bit to understand why you felt
it would work in a similar manner.
5558 The
staff of journalists, will they be responsible, as well, as for the scheduled
news for the non‑news component?
5559 MS
STEVENSON: As we have talked about
before, they would be responsible of course for all the newscasts, and there
are a number of programs they would be responsible for; the listener line, the
public affairs program, and Live Tonight.
The community events and the Your Town features chores would probably
fall more into the programming side of things.
5560 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: And when it comes to the
listener poll and how it will be integrated into your programming, could you
describe that to us? And who would be
responsible for that?
5561 MS
STEVENSON: That would come under the
news room.
5562 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: The news.
5563 MS
STEVENSON: Definitely news. It's something that you have to be careful
with to make sure that nothing untoward gets on the air, so that would
definitely have to be something the news room takes responsibility for. The announcers could help to promote the
event and build it up and talk about it, but ultimately it would be the news
room who would be responsible for what gets on the air.
5564 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
5565 Let's
go to the format again. And let me put
it this way, in the supplementary brief on page 7, we started out with this as
a broad based classics format operating a variety of music from classic hits to
more of an oldies offering music from the '60s and '70s. And in fact in your supplementary brief you
divided the decades; the '60s at 20 percent, the '70s at 20 percent, the '80s
at 50, and the '90s to present at 10.
5566 I
think what we have ‑‑ what you presented today is called olders
based and classic hits and I sense a shift in that breakdown. And can you explain that and can you explain
why you shifted?
5567 Basically,
I think, looking very quickly at your speaking notes, you have '60s and 70s at
45 percent, '80s and '90s at 55. There's
been a slight adjustment in the break ‑‑ the way the decades
will be distributed so ‑‑ and I think the word oldies and
classic hits was different from broad based.
5568 MR.
MAHEU: Sure. I'd like to address the name of it
first. In terms of broad base classic
hits, that was the ‑‑ that's what we called it as a format
monicker or a name in the supplementary brief.
In our opening remarks we called it oldies based classic hits,
just ‑‑ we thought it would help clarify or give a better
understanding of what ‑‑ really what the radio station would
sound like and what it would be comprised of, so it's really a label more than
anything else. And broad based classics
or oldies based classic hits are just industry terms that basically describe
the same thing.
5569 Going
to your question on the percentages of music and what genre they're coming from
or what era they're coming from, since we filed our research for
Saskatoon ‑‑ and we filed it some time ago ‑‑
we've had the opportunity in a number of our markets, but especially in
Charlottetown, to have real hands‑on, real world experience with this
format that we did not have when we put this supplementary brief together.
5570 It's
always one thing to see research on a piece of paper and a format idea. It's quite another to implement it on a radio
station and hear it come to life and see what happens to it.
5571 Very
briefly, in
5572 The
Commission gave us permission to convert it to FM, which was good news in one
way, that we were going to be able to compete with other radio stations, but
the bad news was we'd have to alter the format because we couldn't do the pure
oldies format on the FM band. So what we
did there is ‑‑ you know, we had done our research in
Saskatoon and we saw at least ‑‑ I'm not saying Saskatoon to
Charlottetown are the same by any stretch, but we thought, well, I think we can
supplement the oldies format with the great pop classic hits from the '80s and
the '90s. And we've done that in
5573 The
response that we've had to this radio station from local islanders is
unbelievable. It's an overwhelming
response, better than we anticipated because we thought folks who just loved
oldies were going to be mad that we weren't just playing '60s and '70s music
anymore, and we were going to have to explain to them why we couldn't. But it's worked out quite well. The radio station sounds good and it ‑‑
and the response is excellent.
5574 And
so given that experience and seeing it work in a real world, real life example
in a market of 70,000 people gave us pause to, you know, kind of rename the
format oldies based classic hits and focus our Saskatoon proposition a little
more in that way.
5575 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: It may ‑‑
yes, I can see why you see it working as a formula, but if you look at what's
currently in this market ‑‑ let's look at it from that point
of view, why you thought it would work.
Considering what's here currently, it would appear not only to cover
some of the same decades but also skew females.
So why what you are offering would be different and offer diversity?
5576 MR.
MAHEU: Well, it's certainly a format
that is not being done as a pure format in the
5577 How
we're different from every other incumbent radio station in
5578 And
when we're looking at an 18 percent or format void for oldies from the '60s and
'70s, in radio terms in a market the size of
5579 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: So it brings me to, again,
this ‑‑ the median age 49 years according to your list here,
which explains the move towards the oldies side of the equation, and that's the
connection there ‑‑
5580 MR.
MAHEU: It really is.
5581 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: ‑‑ as opposed to pop and adult contemporary and
so on.
5582 MR.
MAHEU: Exactly. The first people that will gravitate to this
radio station the quickest will be people with a very high predisposition to be
first choice favourite users of oldies music.
So those folks are going to be the first folks that discover this radio
station and go "Oh, you know, there's a great new radio station playing
music from the '60s and '70s."
Again, I have to say that, given the way the regulations are right now
on the hit versus non‑hit, we're going to ‑‑ you know,
obviously we say it's 45 percent to make sure that we have a little room there
so that we don't break rules.
5583 But,
you know, we want to take the radio station as much ‑‑ as
close to oldies as we possibly can and stay within the CRTC rules. But the market's telling us pretty clearly if
the rule wasn't in place, this would be an oldies radio station predominantly
'60s and '70s, but we've had to put that extra '80s and a little bit of '90s in
to cover off and make it work.
5584 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
5585 I ‑‑
that's very helpful. Thank you. Moving to CTD, first I just wanted to clarify
in your remarks this evening in describing your 1.5 ‑‑ just
over, I think it's 1.505 ‑‑ you mention the 90,000 to
Starmaker, and we'll get back to the details.
5586 You
mention the 85,000 annually to the two stream of programs, but you didn't
mention the 40,000 to the
5587 MR.
BOECHLER: That is an oversight on our
part.
5588 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Okay.
5589 MR.
BOECHLER: The University of Saskatchewan
in fact is included in our CDT program.
Letters sent from Dean McNeill, head of the
5590 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Yes, I have that. I just wanted to be sure, and staff brought
to my attention that it had ‑‑ it wasn't in the presentation,
so we want to be careful that ‑‑
5591 MR.
BOECHLER: Absolutely. Our ‑‑
5592 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: ‑‑ it hasn't been ‑‑
5593 MR.
BOECHLER: ‑‑ apologies on that.
5594 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: ‑‑ and the (off mic...)
5595 MR.
BOECHLER: It is exactly.
5596 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Staying on that component
of your CTD, again we're looking at a detailed description in the deficiencies
of the way the funding would be disbursed through top scholarships and
festivals and the breakdown. Is, again,
the 40,000 to be split equally between scholarships and support for music
festivals? Is it still an even
breakdown?
5597 MR.
BOECHLER: In my conversations with Dean
McNeill, he is perfectly comfortable with that.
One of the things that ‑‑ the only thing that we
touched about regarding scholarship would ‑‑ if he had the
flexibility based on need, based on the year, do they ‑‑ you
know, if we start them out at 4 or $5,000 scholarships annually, can they go to
210 based on needs, wants, desires of the university. And I said, as long as we work through their
scholarship department at the
5598 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: So ‑‑ and
that kind of discussion has taken place, that even with that flexibility, you
have to have some assurance that the funds ‑‑
5599 MR.
BOECHLER: Yes.
5600 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: ‑‑ will go in these?
5601 MR.
BOECHLER: Yes
5602 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: And do you have that
agreement in writing ‑‑
5603 MR.
BOECHLER: We ‑‑
5604 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: ‑‑ with the university?
5605 MR.
BOECHLER: ‑‑ we have it in agreement in principle from the
standpoint if we are fortunate to receive the licence, then we sit down and
we'll have that all organized and in writing from the university.
5606 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Okay. Similar question as per the proposal
yesterday for
5607 MS
SPENRATH: Yes, I have it prepared, and
we can provide it for you at your convenience.
5608 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Thank you. It's ready immediately?
5609 MR.
BOECHLER: Yes, it is.
‑‑‑ Undertaking /
Engagement
5610 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
5611 Did
you the address contribution to East Coast artists?
5612 MR.
BOECHLER: Again ‑‑
5613 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Sorry, East Coast. Nothing against the East Coast but ‑‑
5614 MR.
BOECHLER: Yes.
5615 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: And the administration
costs, will you also explain how that works in this budget breakdown?
5616 MR.
MAHEU: The budget breakdown that you're
going to receive does break down the administrative costs to give the
Commission a sense of what those administration costs are made up of. So there is some detail in the budget.
5617 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: So we can assess if it's
appropriate? And ‑‑
5618 MR.
MAHEU: Absolutely.
5619 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: ‑‑ find the ‑‑ finally,
similarly in this breakdown there are ‑‑ there is funding to
artist representatives such as published ‑‑ publicists and
managers. Do you have an explanation for
those costs as well?
5620 MR.
BOECHLER: In referring to ‑‑
I'm sorry?
5621 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: In the breakdown you can
see not only administration costs, but some artist management ‑‑
artist/management travel, so the question just is to clarify whether monies are
going to artists or their managers ‑‑
5622 MR.
BOECHLER: No, they ‑‑
the money there would be going to the artists.
5623 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: So if you could amplify
this breakdown not only in terms of costs, but in terms of an explanation of
that?
5624 MR.
BOECHLER: Sure.
5625 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: That would be very helpful.
5626 MR.
BOECHLER: Absolutely.
5627 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: And that would ‑‑
5628 MS
SPENRATH: Yes ‑‑
5629 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: ‑‑ apply to the other breakdown.
5630 MS
SPENRATH: I'm sorry. I can file that immediately after this
presentation.
5631 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: I'm sorry, I didn't hear
you.
5632 MS
SPENRATH: I can file that immediately
after this presentation.
‑‑‑ Undertaking /
Engagement
5633 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
5634 Now,
the ‑‑ we're moving into the final section and we'll go back
to format and ask you a little more precisely the impact of potential licensing
of your oldies/classic hits station. And
you indicate in your application that 35 percent of your advertising revenues
in year 1 would come from existing stations, so hence there is some impact vis‑a‑vis
the format.
5635 How
do you assess the potential of the classic hits, now oldies/classic hits format
to attract new advertisers to radio compared with other formats?
5636 MR.
MAHEU: Well, a couple of ways, and in a
moment I'm going to ask Brad Boechler to speak to that a little more
specifically. Any new radio station that
signs on in the market has two challenges facing it, and it's the same for
everyone.
5637 First
of all, you have to go out and generate some sort of audience. You've got to let people know that you're
there, and you've got to build an audience of listenership.
5638 And
your second big challenge is to go out and build goodwill in the community and
generate some revenue in sales, so those are two separate and distinct streams
of work that need to be done for a radio station. The easier part is getting a new radio
station on the air, promoting it and generating an audience. The tough part is to then monetize it.
5639 We
believe that our business plan that put together is quite modest and very
achievable. The 35 percent figure coming
from other radio stations is a big number ‑‑ a big percentage
of a smaller number though. In terms of
the revenue that we've projected for first year in the marketplace, 35 percent
of that is rather small.
5640 As
a matter of fact, you know, based on what we project the market is doing right
now, it's probably a week and a half's worth of revenue in the radio market, so
it's not significant.
5641 We
do believe that the economic activity and the robust vitality that the
community is experiencing right now lends itself to a new entrant being able to
go out and knock on some doors and generate radio advertising revenue that is
not currently being received by the incumbent radio stations.
5642 The
fact that we're bringing this format, if we're licensed to the marketplace,
also puts us into a unique position to be able to bring a proposition to
advertisers to reach a group of people that presently are not well served or
satisfied because this format is not available.
This is a very lucrative audience to advertisers, 35 to 64‑year‑olds
in terms of disposable income. And we
believe that ‑‑ and again, being the new kid on the block, so
to speak in Saskatoon, if we're fortunate enough, we're going to be knocking on
some doors that quite possibly haven't been knocked on in a little while, and
our rates are not going to be as high as the incumbent radio stations until we
have some sort of track record.
5643 So
we believe we've got a really good value proposition for the marketplace, and
it's to be a matter of doing a good job on the air and the hard work on the
street. Brad, you may want to add to
that.
5644 MR.
BOECHLER: Sure. Thanks, Mark.
We are estimating the radio market value to be worth currently about 16
and a half to $17 million on the high side, and that's current. Our first year, as Mark ‑‑
our first year budget, as Mark has alluded to, is about 1.4 all in, national
retail combined. And again, we are ‑‑
we would be a standalone in a market made up of strong consolidated
operations. We will be new in the
market. We have to earn our way to
credibility with the advertisers.
We ‑‑ it's going to take us longer, as experience has
shown us, as we've launched new stations and new operations, another market,
that the sales will lag behind the acceptance of the radio station from a
listener standpoint.
5645 The
other thing we add, and it's a similar example to yesterday, if we take two
years from this point forward, we would be on the air sometime, and if were
fortunate ‑‑ not to be presumptuous, we would be on the air
sometime in 2008. Based on what we've
shared with you earlier, based on projection growths, we predict the market
will be worth about $18 million, $18.5 million in ‑‑ by the
year 2008 whether you ‑‑ whether a new licence is granted in
the market or not.
5646 And
Glenda Spenrath has some more economic data for us that can tend to back up
that number for us and ‑‑ as we're not privy to the numbers in
the marketplace.
5647 MS
SPENRATH: Thanks, Brad. Yes, I did look at some other economic
indicators for the market of
5648 And
in addition to that, I also looked at the construction price index, the new
housing price index published by Stats Canada for the year ended ‑‑
for the 12 months ended August 31st of '06.
If you pull out Calgary and Edmonton, which are clearly anomalies, and
they looked at 19 other metro markets within Canada, Regina and Saskatoon were
on top, number 1, as far as the new housing price index goes.
5649 And
I did actually step outside of the statistics for a moment, and when I was
driving down here ‑‑ I used to live in Saskatoon for a number
of years, and so I stopped in to visit a colleague at Pricewaterhouse Coopers
when I was passing through, and he urged me to take a look at some of the new
areas in town because so much has changed since I was there.
5650 And
so I drove down on the south end of
5651 In
addition to that, again, I looked at population. I've been ‑‑ I looked at
2005's population, and what the analysts were expecting to happen a year
ago ‑‑ and they were looking ahead in Saskatoon for a five‑year
period, at that point they were projecting increases of .8 percent in the
population for Saskatoon, only a year later in 2006, they've now revised their
projections upward to a population growth of 2.4 percent. So they've increased their projections
threefold in this one‑year period, looking forward five years. So I really do believe the vital signs are
very strong for
5652 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
5653 That's
very helpful. As you know, there's going
to be different versions of that outlook, and you provided some of that ‑‑
those comments in your remarks here.
5654 Certainly
one of ‑‑ as Vice‑Chair Arpin said a little while ago,
one of the key points of this hearing, and now in Saskatoon as well, is the
discussion of the indicators that we should use to assess markets of the impact
that licensing one or two, or any or none, commercial stations will have on the
market and the capacity of the market to absorb a new licence.
5655 Again,
if we can speak to that point and look at the
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
5656 MR.
MAHEU: No. You know, there are a number of things to
consider. Radio and its ability to
generate revenue, and that's really, I think, one of the key things that we're
all thinking about when it comes to how much room would there be in a
marketplace to add new service because the Commission has the very difficult
job of balancing the needs of the community and the citizens with the needs of
incumbent broadcasters because, without them being successful, there is no
service. And at what level can the
market absorb service and how much is enough and how much is too much, so you
need to consider all things very carefully.
5657 You
can never be a hundred percent sure of anything. What we are sure of though, when it comes to
5658 And
another key indicator for radio is what's going on in terms of retail
sales. How much money are consumers
spending in a marketplace? Is it going
up? Is it going down? How much is it on a per capita basis? And
5659 And,
Brad, do you have those numbers handy by the way? I just ‑‑ I'll come to you
in a sec ‑‑ or we ‑‑ somebody has them. The retail sales activity that's going on in
Saskatoon, even if you looked at it on a retail sales per radio station in the
market basis, we took a look at that, and it's quite an interesting fact when
it comes out because, when you compare it to other markets of similar or equal
size, it leads us to believe that the economic activity that's going on in
Saskatoon could certainly support a lot more service. Do you have it, Brad?
5660 MR.
BOECHLER: I don't have it by station,
but I do have ‑‑ the economic indicators as of what they're
saying today is retail sales in 2006 will be $2.4 billion this year and
projected to increase by 9 percent by 2008.
And that, again, is from FP Markets.
5661 MR.
MAHEU: To give you a better sense in
terms of retail sales in
5662 If
you go to the ‑‑ I don't want to reference
5663 Saskatoon,
by all measures, when we looked at the amount of retail sales happening in the
marketplace per commercial radio station operating, was anywhere from 50
percent to 90 percent higher than a lot of equivalent markets. And actually we have that information and we
can ‑‑ would be happy to give it to you. The markets we looked at were
5664 So,
you know, as retail sales go in a marketplace; furniture, durable goods,
discretionary consumer spending, restaurants, et cetera, by that measure,
that's where radio and local radio sales lives and dies. When the economy is good and people are
spending, we do well as an industry.
When things tighten up and people stop spending and retail sales go
down, we're on the leading edge of that.
And we're one of the first mediums to get cut back when things start to
get a little tough.
5665 But
all indicators are right now that things are very good in Saskatoon, and the
indicators are, at least from what we've seen, is they're going to continue to
get better over a period of time. So
that leads us to believe ‑‑ and I think that's the strongest
indicator ‑‑ that the marketplace can absorb and sustain new
additional services.
5666 COMMISSIONER
PENNEFATHER: Thank you. Thank you very much. I'll hand you back to Madam Chair and my
colleagues, and thank you for answering my questions again.
5667 MR.
MAHEU: Thank you.
5668 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Vice‑Chair Arpin...?
5669 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
5670 The ‑‑
Mr. Maheu, you said that according to your estimate and your own internal
study, that the incumbent station were gathering about $16 million of
advertising revenues out of the Saskatoon market, growing to 18 million by the
year 2008. How did you arrive at those
numbers?
5671 MR.
MAHEU: I'll ask Brad Boechler to give
you the detail on that, if I may, Mr. Vice‑Chair?
5672 MR.
BOECHLER: I travel all over the
country. I talked to broadcasters from
other companies almost on a weekly basis.
National agencies, people in business, I'm still in quite close contact
with a lot of friends and acquaintances ‑‑ some in the
business, some not in the business in
5673 But
seriously, that's where we came from. We
knew it was higher than
5674 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: So if it's not in a formula of
some kind, it's ‑‑ by your own experience, a market of similar
size and the ‑‑
5675 MR.
BOECHLER: Exactly.
5676 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: ‑‑ the retail activity in similar markets that you
have arrived to ‑‑
5677 MR.
BOECHLER: I ‑‑
5678 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: ‑‑ to that guess ‑‑
5679 MR.
BOECHLER: In researching the ‑‑
5680 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: ‑‑ estimate?
5681 MR.
BOECHLER: I'm sorry, Vice‑Chair. In researching the market and consulting with
my colleagues, we think we're pretty close.
It's not something we just pulled out of the air and said this will
justify a case why more radio stations should be added. We think we're quite close in both markets
but more specifically
5682 COMMISSIONER
ARPIN: Well, that was my question. Thank you, Madam Chair.
5683 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
5684 I
have two questions. Would you agree to a
5685 MR.
MAHEU: No problem at all.
5686 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
5687 This
age group, they're also the CBC age group ‑‑ not that CBC
wants it that way ‑‑ but CBC has had a lot of coverage
problems in Saskatoon, and they will be putting in their nesting FM
solution ‑‑ at least they have been given the authority to do
that.
5688 Do
you think that will change, like, this group?
Do you think it will lower your 18 percent hole if they have adequate
CBC coverage or is it a totally different group?
5689 MR.
MAHEU: It's really a different group of
people. The people that ‑‑
in the survey and that we based our proposal format proposal on are first
choice heavy users of this type of music.
It's the radio station and the kind of format they choose to listen to
most.
5690 What
I can say, though, is that, you know, we're going to make it more difficult for
CBC to get ready and share in that market because we are going to put, as
you've seen, a pretty good emphasis on news and information. So our goal is to make sure that when people
are tuned to our radio station that they get the kind of news and information
and service on the air outside of the music, so they feel looked after and they
don't feel the need to go somewhere else to supplement to get news and
information.
5691 And,
you know, there are going to be those who listen to the CBC regardless
and ‑‑ because they like it, and they're first choice heavy
users of news and talk, but we are not planning on targeting those people, but
we want to do a good enough job so our folks don't feel they have to leave and
go to CBC. So we're confident we can
compete.
5692 THE
CHAIRPERSON: You can now do your two‑minute
sales job.
5693 MS
BENNETT: Can I just ‑‑
5694 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I'm sorry. Sorry, Leanne. I'm ‑‑
5695 MS
BENNETT: That's okay. We're so quiet over here. Just the retail sales per commercial station
numbers that you are planning to file, would you be able to file them tomorrow
morning?
5696 MR.
MAHEU: Sure we would, yes.
5697 MS
BENNETT: Okay.
5698 MR.
MAHEU: And they're from FP Markets
so ‑‑ but we've got it on a one sheeter for you. Okay?
5699 MS
BENNETT: Okay, thank you.
5700 MR.
MAHEU: Sure.
5701 THE
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, counsel. Now you can start. Thank you.
5702 MR.
MAHEU: Well, there's never a sale
without the close. So very briefly,
thank you very much for your time and your attention.
5703 It's
Wednesday already and it's been a pleasure to present our proposal format idea
for
5704 The
economic activity in the city, from our point of view, tells us that there's
certainly room for new service to be viable and sustainable in the
marketplace. We believe we've come with
a very good format idea, one that will have a minimum amount of impact on
incumbent broadcasters while at the same time be satisfying a need and a want
that clearly, through the research that we did, exists in the marketplace.
5705 We've
brought the news and information programming as part of your proposal and we've
committed to do it, and we will, because we know it's going to be necessary to
be successful. And on top of that, we're
putting our money where our music is.
We're putting a million and a half dollars on the table as part of our
initiatives to develop Canadian talent.
We've got some good partnership ideas with the university and we'd love
the opportunity to put that into effect and get to work and put a great new
radio station on in
5706 So
on behalf of all of us at Newcap Radio, thank you for the opportunity to tell
you about it.
5707 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Steele, Mr.
Maheu and panel.
5708 And
we will be adjourning this evening, but because we're three‑quarters of
an hour early, we're going to start tomorrow morning at quarter to eight.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
5709 THE
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, okay ‑‑
5710 COMMISSIONER
CUGINI: You might.
5711 THE
CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ 8:30.
‑‑‑ Upon
adjourning at 1835 /
L'audience est ajournée à 1835
REPORTERS
per
Twyla Grieve
Verbatim Court Reporter
- Date de modification :