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Prière de noter que la Loi sur les langues officielles exige que toutes publications gouvernementales soient disponibles dans les deux langues officielles.
Afin de rencontrer certaines des exigences de cette loi, les procès-verbaux du Conseil seront dorénavant bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience et la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience.
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE
THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT
LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT:
Applications to Provide an All
Channel Alert Service /
demandes visant la fourniture
d'un service
d'alerte tous
canaux
HELD AT:
TENUE À:
Conference
Centre
Centre de conférences
Pontiac Room
Salle Pontiac
140 Promenade du
Portage
140, Promenade du Portage
Gatineau,
Quebec
Gatineau (Québec)
May 2, 2006
Le 2 mai 2006
Transcripts
In order to meet the
requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of
proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers,
the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public
hearings, and the Table of
Contents.
However, the aforementioned
publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as
such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official
languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at
the public hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les
exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les
procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à
la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du
CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table
des matières.
Toutefois, la publication
susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et,
en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou
l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la
langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience
publique.
Canadian Radio‑television and
Telecommunications Commission
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes
Transcript / Transcription
Applications to Provide an All
Channel Alert Service /
demandes visant la fourniture d'un service
d'alerte tous canaux
BEFORE /
DEVANT:
Michel Arpin
Chairperson / Président
Joan Pennefather
Commissioner / Conseillère
Helen del Val
Commissioner / Conseillère
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI
PRÉSENTS:
Chantal Boulet
Secretary / Secrétaire
Peter McCallum/
Legal Counsel /
Reynolds Mastin
Conseillers juridiques
Gerard Bergin
Manager, Broadcast
Technology /
Gestionnaire
de technologie
en
radiodiffusion
HELD AT:
TENUE À:
Conference Centre
Centre de conférences
Pontiac Room
Salle Pontiac
140 Promenade du Portage
140, Promenade du Portage
Gatineau, Quebec
Gatineau (Québec)
May 2, 2006
Le 2 mai 2006
TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE / PARA
PHASE
III
INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION
PAR:
CARP
338 / 1837
CMOS
349 / 1904
Ministry of Community Safety
and
364 / 2000
Correctional
Services
Salvation Army
382 / 2106
Rogers communications
396 / 2173
New Brunswick Emergency
Measures Organization
452 / 2471
CanWest Media Works Inc., CHUM
Ltd. & CTV Inc. 481
/ 2630
City of Mississauga
529 / 2876
City of Sarnia
533 / 2895
City of Brampton /
539 / 2929
Ontario Association of Emergency
Managers
Québecor Média
578 / 3130
Telco TV
615 / 3338
CKUA
646 / 3484
Environment Canada
690 / 3707
Avis de Recherche.tv
715 / 3849
Gatineau Quebec / Gatineau (Québec)
‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Tuesday,
May 2, 2006
at 0900 / L'audience reprend
le mardi
2 mai 2006 à
0900
1828
THE CHAIRPERSON: Order
please. À l'ordre, s'il vous
plaît.
1829
Nous débuterons la Phase III
de l'audience à l'instant même.
1830
We will initiate
Phase III of this public hearing now.
I will ask the secretary to introduce the first
intervenor.
1831
THE SECRETARY: Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
1832
Before we proceed to Phase III, I would just like to state for the
record that the applicant Pelmorex Communications filed a 7‑page document during
Phase II yesterday, which includes a CBC detailed breakdown of cable
capital costs compared to Pelmorex.
This document will be added to the applicant's public record and will be
available in the examination room for those interested to have a
copy.
1833
Also, with respect to the intervenors, we have been informed that Ville
de Blainville, which is Intervention No. 279, as well as the Canadian Red
Cross, which is Intervention No. 24, will not be appearing at the
hearing.
1834
I would now call the first intervenor to come forward, which is CARP, if
they have arrived.
1835
Come forward to the front, please, for your
presentation.
‑‑‑
Pause
1836
THE CHAIRPERSON: Whenever
you are ready.
INTERVENTION
1837
MR. VENGROFF: Ladies and
gentlemen of the CRTC, this presentation is made by CARP, Canada's Association
for the 50 Plus in support of the application made by Pelmorex for the ALL
CHANNEL ALERT system, or ACA.
1838
We at CARP believe that this system will be an important and potentially
lifesaving support mechanism for many Canadian seniors, particularly those who
travel on a limited basis outside their homes, or who are highly dependent on
favourable environmental conditions for their activities of daily
living.
1839
Seniors, particularly the elderly, often living alone are more severely
affected by environmental events than many others that may often take it in
stride. Heavy rain, extreme heat
alerts, smog alerts and even high winds can adversely affect their days and put
their lives at risk.
1840
CARP is the largest association in the country for people over 50. With over 400,000 members, over 800,000
readers per issue of our magazine and millions of unique visitors per year on
our various websites, we reach a wide and growing cross section of Canada. We are the voice representing over
10 million Canadians over the age of 50.
1841
CARP has been actively involved in supporting a healthy environment,
reduced and hazardous pollutants, everything from automobile emissions to other
airborne and waterborne toxins. We
hosted an environmental roundtable in 2002 with such distinguished speakers as
David Suzuki, Dr. Sheila Basrur and Hanna Strong where we presented a
series of recommendations to David Anderson, the Minister of Environment of the
day, a number of which have been acted upon.
1842
We continue to be very concerned about this issue and believe that it is
particularly important that seniors be given timely information to enable
them to deal with environmental and other
threats?
1843
It may be true these days that Canadians in general are more connected
and more informed than ever. Many
have cellphones, personal digital assistants, radios, television, printed media,
and more. Many of us use these
information‑gathering devices in conjunction with other ones such as TV combined
with websites for enhanced broadcast experiences, or cellphones and PDAs
combined, such as the RIM Blackberry or the Handspring
Trio.
1844
However, seniors today, even the more connected ones, by and large rely
on traditional media, television, radio and newspaper for much of their current
information.
1845
We are not here to comment on the rate chargeable to consumers for the
ACA service, but at a cost of $0.08 a month per subscriber it is clear the issue
is not one of affordability.
1846
Rather, our position only speaks to the necessity of the
service.
1847
In supporting Pelmorex for the ownership and management of the service,
we do so only to the extent that, based on our knowledge of both the
requirements of such a service and the qualifications of the applicant, they
would be the best at providing it at a level Canadians would expect and at a
price they can afford in the shortest possible
time.
1848
Our understanding as to how such a system would work would be to provide
emergency information on a timely basis as events are developing, as opposed to
reporting events that have already occurred. Given the nature and variation in our
climate, this seems like more than just a good idea.
1849
But we also know that it is not just about the weather, and this will be
discussed later.
1850
News coverage after certain events can reflect the current state of
affairs post facto. Beforehand the
same media can offer predictions in some cases of events yet to be played
out.
1851
There is also a need, and with today's aging population a more pressing
one, to be able to report on developing events in as many ways as possible in
order to give the affected parties the maximum amount of time to prepare. Seniors need more time to get out of a
house in the event of an evacuation.
Seniors may need to obtain medication or emergency supplies if they know
they may not be able to get out of the house for a few
days.
1852
Others may reconsider their plans to leave the house if a severe weather
alert appears on their television sets.
1853
If weather were the only concern, in CARP's opinion this would be reason
enough to have this service. But,
as we know, there are events where we are simply not playing the odds, as in a
tornado watch where they have already occurred.
1854
I lived in Houston for a number of years and any resident, even a
relatively recent one, is well aware of the large industrial plants,
petrochemical plants that exist at the eastern edge of the city. The discharge of often very hazardous
chemical compounds was an alarmingly regular event during my stay there and
continues to this day.
1855
The potential outcome, and sometimes the actual outcomes, was more
than just a ruined picnic. These
events, and sometimes the evacuations that followed, were sometimes a matter of
life and death.
1856
Upon reflection, many Canadian cities find themselves in similar
circumstances. Many people live in
relatively close proximity to petrochemical plants, smelters, pulp and paper
mills or nuclear power plants and would potentially be much better off if their
televisions alerted them to an industrial accident with widespread
consequences.
1857
The fact that even 20 years after Chernobyl Canada doesn't have an
emergency system to warn against such a similar occurrence is inexcusable. Why isn't this in place
now?
1858
We must be cognizant of the power of human intervention on the
environment. Terrorism, forest
fires and domestic civil unrest are realities, grim or otherwise, both abroad
and at home. The benefits of ACA,
both tangible and intangible, could be immeasurable over the long
term.
1859
In fact, not too dissimilar perceptions and sentiments existed during the
height of the cold war or the civil defence era, the antecedent cause of the
establishment of the Emergency Broadcast System, the predecessor to the
Emergency Alert System in use today in the United States.
1860
It would be nice to think that in this increasingly interconnected
society an alert system of the nature being discussed would be almost a
self‑evident truth, but apparently it is not.
1861
In fact, if it were technologically possible ‑‑ and it would be hard
to imagine it wouldn't ‑‑ and the will existed to extend this system to
other media such as the Internet and cellphones, CARP would support that
too.
1862
Another reality today is that today's senior is not as likely to be glued
to the television as may have been true in much of the post‑war era. That same individual is just as likely
to be chatting with friends or playing games on line, in the garden or in town,
or simply engaged in an active lifestyle where notification of any adverse
environmental condition should be expected.
1863
CARP thanks you for your time and consideration of our support for the
applicant.
1864
THE SECRETARY: Excuse me,
gentlemen. Could you just identify
yourself for the record?
1865
What is your name, please?
1866
MR. VENGROFF: Yes. My name is Eric
Vengroff.
1867
THE SECRETARY: The spelling
of your last name?
1868
MR. VENGROFF: That is
V‑E‑N‑G‑R‑O‑F‑F.
1869
THE SECRETARY: Thank
you.
1870
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
very much, Mr. Vengroff.
1871
Mrs. Pennefather...?
1872
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Thank you, and thank you for coming to the hearing with your
comments. They are very
clear.
1873
I just have a couple of questions I would appreciate your
responses.
1874
One of them concerns the point you made on the second page about the
alert. You are aware, of course, of
the kind of text that is being talked about in terms of the demos we had
yesterday, or in the documentation regarding the Pelmorex application, what you
would actually see and hear on the screen.
1875
In terms of seniors, the groups that you represent, what would be the
details that they would require in the message?
1876
You mention here:
"Seniors may need
to obtain medication or emergency supplies if they know they may not be able to
get out of the house for a few days."
1877
Do you expect a text to go to that level of
information?
1878
MR. VENGROFF: No, I think by
and large seniors have (off microphone...) in some cases their age. Again, we are not talking necessarily
about people who are in their advanced years. When we refer to this demographic
it could be anything over the age of 55 typically, as defined by, I guess,
Statistics Canada.
1879
But I guess people who have lived to this age know what they need to do
when they need to do it, they just need to know what to do ‑‑ or need to
know if there is a problem, if
there is going to be a problem. I
think they have enough judgment, by and large, to be able to decide when it's
time to leave the house or when it's time not to.
1880
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Thank you. I appreciate
knowing that I know what to do.
1881
The other point I had was:
What is your sense of what the local broadcasters offer
in comparison?
1882
MR. VENGROFF: Well, I am not
aware of anything other than what I see sporadically, I guess on television or
through a radio broadcast or whatever it is. If there is a severe weather alert I may
hear about it at times on the radio, but never on ‑‑ not that I'm aware of
on television unless I happen to be tuned into a broadcast that is directly
speaking to that point.
1883
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
One of the components of the Pelmorex proposal is a public education
program.
1884
Do you have any comment on what that program should contain, what kind of
information about the existence of an alert system, the contents of an alert
system should be?
1885
MR. VENGROFF: I can only
offer, I guess, the commentary that came out of our environmental forum back in
2002. Seniors would often be
described I guess as the canaries in the coal mine. They are typically the more severely
affected by environmental conditions.
1886
For example, on days when we know that there is going to be, or three is
a high likelihood of there is going to be an environmental issue, for example a
heavy smog day in a major urban city, then seniors are often told to stay
indoors. If they have
respiratory problems then are often told to reduce their physical activity if
it's high heat, high smog.
1887
Conversely, if you go back to even things like where it could be a
waterborne agent that is in the water, or something that gets into
the drinking supply as what happened in Walkerton, again it was the
older population that was more severely
affected.
1888
So to the extent that any information along those lines that can be added
to any sort of broadcast that directly alerts a specific population that is at
risk I think would be in order.
1889
And if there is any educational information that can go along with that
of course then I think that would be also in order as well, things to do that
you can protect yourself against.
1890
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
All right. That was sort of
what I was getting at in the first question as
well ‑‑
1891
MR. VENGROFF:
Yes.
1892
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: ‑‑ what over and above the
text.
1893
The public education program, as I understand it, is to let people know
that such an alert system exists and what to watch for. That, you think, through other media
might be also available?
1894
MR. VENGROFF: Well, speaking
I guess from CARP's perspective, I mean we would certainly want to assist in
letting our constituents know that if there were an educational opportunity we
would certainly be ‑‑ we would be there to support
that.
1895
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Thank you. Thank you very
much.
1896
Those are my questions, Mr. Chairman.
1897
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Thank you, Mr. Vengroff.
1898
MR. VENGROFF:
Okay?
1899
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Yes.
1900
Mrs. Secretary...?
1901
THE SECRETARY: Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
1902
I would now call the next appearing intervenor, Dr. Ian Rutherford
from the Canadian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society,
(CMOS).
1903
Dr. Rutherford, you have 10 minutes for your
presentation.
INTERVENTION
1904
DR. RUTHERFORD: Thank you
very much. I would like to thank
the Commission for the opportunity to appear before them.
1905
As mentioned, I represent the Canadian Meteorological and Oceanographic
Society, which I will refer to as CMOS.
We are a national non‑profit, membership‑based society ‑‑ sometimes
called a learned society although I find that a bit pretentious ‑‑ but our
purpose is to advance the sciences and the technology of meteorology and
oceanography, and in particular their application to protecting and improving
the lives and the properties of Canadians.
1906
We represent a broad segment of the profession of meteorology and
oceanography, academics, students, scientists, researchers, practitioners,
weather forecasters, service providers, private consultants, a whole range of
folks, including people who are just interested in the weather, from all three
sectors, the public, academic and private sector.
1907
So we represent people who are knowledgeable and in fact many who are
heavily involved in the production of weather warnings or in the development of
tsunami warning procedures.
1908
We are also involved in accrediting consultants in our two fields. We also endorse on‑air weather
broadcasters who are disseminating weather information, those who meet our
standards.
1909
We have a subsidiary body called the Canadian Foundation for Climate and
Atmospheric Sciences which provides funding to university researchers in climate
and atmospheric science.
1910
So because of our involvement we are quite familiar with developments in
the science and technology of weather prediction and we know that these
improvements by the science and in the new technologies such as doppler radar
have produced enormous improvements in the accuracy, reliability and the
timeliness of warnings of severe meteorological and oceanographic events such as
tornadoes or hurricanes and tsunamis.
1911
The problem is that these advances have not been matched by equivalent
improvements in the public warning dissemination systems needed to bring alerts
and warnings to the attention of the public. That is a serious problem, because very
often many of these warnings have a very short fuse. One can predict the occurrence of a
tornado at a given spot, but only with a lead time of perhaps half an hour using
the best available technology. So
if you don't get that warning out quickly, it's useless.
1912
Current dissemination systems are, first of all, very piecemeal. They depend on individual players, TV
stations, radio stations; they are voluntary; they are fragmented; they are slow
to respond; they can't really differentiate urgent situations from non‑urgent
situations; they don't have the knowledge to do that. So ultimately they are
ineffective.
1913
Warnings that could save lives if they were delivered promptly are
delivered too late or not at all.
Lives are being lost as a result.
Property is being destroyed as a result.
1914
I as in charge of the weather service in 1987 when the Edmonton tornado
hit. We actually produced not a bad
forecast of that tornado given the technology of the day, but it wasn't carried
by the media. They didn't
appreciate the urgency of it.
1915
As a result of that event, the Weather Service acquired Doppler radars
which essentially doubled the warning time possible technologically for
tornadoes but we still do not have a dissemination system.
1916
Last year or the year before ‑‑ I forget exactly when it was ‑‑
when the Pine Lake tornado hit a trailer park in Alberta many lives were lost
because people did not receive the warning that was
issued.
1917
So we believe that warnings ‑‑ it is possible to produce effective
warnings but it is not possible yet to deliver them effectively to the public,
in spite of the good work of Pelmorex and The Weather Network and MétéoMédia who
do that on their own dedicated channel but unless you happen to be watching that
channel you don't get the warning.
1918
So we think what Canada needs ‑‑ and it has needed it for a long
time and I think it is tragic that we haven't had it sooner ‑‑ we need a
single mandatory public alerting system capable of really fast response,
essentially immediate response, and it has to be able to disseminate locally
differentiated warnings. They have
to be clearly marked as urgent and they have to be targeted to the people
affected by the hazard.
1919
Of course, we are most knowledgeable about weather and meteorological
events, oceanographic events, but we believe that such a system should be
capable of responding to hazards of all types whether they are man‑made or
natural or a combination of the two, and often they are a combination of the
two.
1920
The system has to be able to respond to hazard warning agencies whether
they are local or national or international and we believe that the Pelmorex
proposal allows for that to happen.
1921
In fact, we recommend that the technology and infrastructure that has
been developed by Pelmorex to disseminate localized weather warnings to those
who happen to be watching The Weather Network or MétéoMédia on cable TV should
be extended immediately to all cable TV and satellite TV channels and to hazards
of all types.
1922
It is important to note that the weather warnings that are carried now by
Pelmorex are not Pelmorex content, they are content that comes from Environment
Canada, the agency officially charged with issuing that kind of warning. They are mandated, funded and equipped
to do that. Pelmorex is the
carrier.
1923
When I listen to comments from some of the other proponents that they
object to carrying Pelmorex material on top of their broadcast, I think they are
barking up the wrong tree.
1924
These warnings are a public service. They are not the property of any one
company whether it is a carrier or an originator. They belong to the public and they need
to be carried to the public that needs to hear them.
1925
So we think that the carrying of such warnings, no matter what type,
should be a mandatory condition of licence as a matter of good public policy,
that the TV stations, the cable stations should be essentially forced to carry
those warnings.
1926
Further, we think that the minor incremental cost of such a system should
be borne by the cable or satellite TV subscribers, much as telephone subscribers
bear the incremental cost of the 9‑1‑1 emergency response service, and it is
even cheaper than the 9‑1‑1 service, so it is a very minor
cost.
1927
So that in a nutshell is our intervention. We support the proposal by
Pelmorex. We don't really care who
provides ‑‑ who carries these services but we do believe that someone must
do it and it should happen as soon as possible.
1928
So I would like to thank you for the chance to speak to you and welcome
any questions you might have.
1929
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Dr. Rutherford.
1930
Commissioner del Val.
1931
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you, Dr. Rutherford, for taking the time to intervene. Just a few
questions.
1932
Now, who do you think should have the authority to decide that a warning
should be issued?
1933
DR. RUTHERFORD: It depends
on the warning. In the case of
weather warnings it is clearly Environment Canada who is mandated to do
that. They have the responsibility
and the accountability to do that but they don't have the means to disseminate
it.
1934
In the case of tsunamis, a Tsunami Warning System is being set up which
will be capable of producing the warnings but, again, they have to be
disseminated.
1935
In the case of local events, for example, a chemical spill like the one
that occurred in Mississauga some years back, clearly the responsibility is a
combination of local authorities, the railroad who happened to be involved in
that case, whatever.
1936
But for most types of emergencies there is a clearly identified agency of
responsibility and those agencies have to have access to such a warning
system.
1937
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay. I don't know whether
you have had a chance to look at the CANALERT Guidelines.
1938
DR. RUTHERFORD: No, I have
not.
1939
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay. Their suggested
definition of "authorized user" is essentially:
"public officials
who have legislative authority and/or responsibility for emergency planning or
their designated delegate." (As
read)
1940
Do you think that is a good definition?
1941
DR. RUTHERFORD: It is not
bad but it focuses on planning and planners do not have the same sense of
urgency as those who are monitoring events and issuing
warnings.
1942
My understanding of CANALERT is it is an agency that will set up
procedures and standards but I don't think it is going to be involved itself in
monitoring what is going on initially in warnings. That will be the responsibility of those
who, by legislation or whatever, by agreement, have the responsibility to do
that.
1943
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay. Would you accept a
definition of "authorized user," so those who can issue the
awards ‑‑
1944
DR. RUTHERFORD: By "user,"
you mean issuer?
1945
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Issuer, yes, which limits the access to the system to only those
individuals or agencies with a mandate to monitor and inform the public with
respect to threats to life. That is
just making it narrower, it is only threats to life that they can issue
warnings ‑‑
1946
DR. RUTHERFORD: I think it
is a very difficult judgment to make whether an event affects only property and
not life ‑‑
1947
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay.
1948
DR. RUTHERFORD: ‑‑ and I think Canadians would expect the threats
to their property would be covered by such a system as
well.
1949
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay. Now, do you ‑‑
what are your views in terms of should it be ‑‑ does it matter whether this
is a government initiative, a private sector initiative or a public/private
partnership?
1950
DR. RUTHERFORD: I don't
think it matters who delivers the warnings and it is inevitably is going to be a
combination of things. I think the
role of government though is to make sure that a warning system is in place to
mandate it and if necessary to make it mandatory.
1951
COMMISSIONER del VAL: And
you see that squarely as the role of the government?
1952
DR. RUTHERFORD: Yes, I think
so.
1953
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay. Who do you think in
your view should be responsible for wrong signals sent?
1954
DR. RUTHERFORD:
For?
1955
COMMISSIONER del VAL: For
wrong signals, wrong alerts.
1956
DR. RUTHERFORD: The person
who is mandated to issue the alert should be responsible for the content of that
alert, recognizing that many types of alerts are not matters of certainty, they
are matters of risk assessment and inevitably there will be errors
made.
1957
But the responsibility of these agencies is to do as good a job as
possible and I think they should be accountable for poor performance if they
have been negligent and that kind of thing.
1958
One hears stories about the head of the Meteorological Service in ‑‑
I forget where it was ‑‑ Thailand was fired because a tsunami alert wasn't
issued on time when in fact I think he did the best he could do with the
technology available to him at the time and with the state of the science of
tsunami warnings.
1959
So that sounds to me like he was held responsible for something over
which he had no real control. One
could argue that he was negligent in not putting in place those systems but like
any official you can only make do what the means that you are
provided.
1960
So there is clearly going to be questions of blame and judgments which
would have to be resolved by the courts ultimately but I think the principle
that people are held responsible and are accountable for their actions and for
doing the best possible job with the tools at their disposal should stand but
they should be punished if they are negligent.
1961
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Who do
you think should be responsible, say, if the alert destined for one destination
was sent to the wrong place?
1962
DR. RUTHERFORD: It should be
whoever made the error. In a
warning system there are many players in the chain and if, for example, the
warning agency issued the warning, the basic warning for the wrong place ‑‑
and this can happen.
1963
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Yes.
1964
DR. RUTHERFORD: If you are
tracking a tornado, for example, you may issue a warning for a place 10 minutes
downstream in its track and it suddenly makes an unpredicted turn to the left
and hits another community, then you could argue, well, that agency is
responsible for that.
1965
Then they would argue whether they had been negligent or whether they had
done the best possible job given the state of the science and technology and the
observations and so on available to them at the
time.
1966
If on the other hand a warning produced for Pine Lake somehow or other
got routed to Woodstock, New Brunswick because there was a software error
in ‑‑ I don't know ‑‑ in the cable TV box that does the switching,
then whoever did that box should be the one held accountable for that
error.
1967
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay.
1968
DR. RUTHERFORD: I mean
clearly you have to look at what actually happened.
1969
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you. What are your views on funding
such a system?
1970
DR. RUTHERFORD: Well, as I
mentioned at the end of my presentation I think the users of the service, cable
TV or satellite TV in the case of a television service, should pay the minor
incremental cost. It is not a big
deal.
1971
To come back to the question of accountability, after the Edmonton
tornado, I was with Environment Canada at the time and we set up an independent
inquiry headed by an academic who did not work for government to look into the
circumstances of exactly what happened there and where were the
problems.
1972
He identified the fact that there were problems in the technology of
tornado warning, which resulted in the acquisition of Doppler radars in this
country, we didn't have any before that ‑‑ well, we had one ‑‑ and he
also identified the difficulty in the chain of getting warnings produced by the
Weather Service to the users and this was simply because there was no way to
force the television stations and radio stations to issue the warning when they
received it.
1973
COMMISSIONER del VAL: When
you used "users" in just that sentence, who did you mean?
1974
DR. RUTHERFORD: I meant the
public at the end ‑‑
1975
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay.
1976
DR. RUTHERFORD: ‑‑ who need to be warned, those who need to be
warned.
1977
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay. Thank you for your
time.
1978
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
1979
THE CHAIRPERSON: Dr.
Rutherford, I have a question myself.
1980
DR. RUTHERFORD:
Certainly.
1981
THE CHAIRPERSON: You
attended the hearing yesterday or part of?
1982
DR. RUTHERFORD: No, I
didn't. I wasn't here but I did
listen to part of it on the audio feed on the
internet.
1983
THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, that
is exactly the same, I think.
Obviously, the CBC came with a proposal to implement an emergency alert
system fairly similar to the one that is in existence in the U.S. Since you seem to be very cognizant of
those systems or at least from a theoretical standpoint, do you have views on
the EAS system?
1984
DR. RUTHERFORD: No, I am not
technically competent to discuss the differences. I heard the discussion yesterday, the
arguments over EAS versus SAP and protocols and capabilities of these
boxes. I am not qualified to
comment on the merits of those arguments.
1985
THE CHAIRPERSON: Obviously,
the CBC proposal is a voluntary one while the ‑‑
1986
DR. RUTHERFORD:
Yes.
1987
THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ Pelmorex one is mandatory and I hear you loud
and clear ‑‑
1988
DR. RUTHERFORD:
Yes.
1989
THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ suggesting that it has got to be
mandatory.
1990
DR. RUTHERFORD: It must be
mandatory ‑‑
1991
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Okay.
1992
DR. RUTHERFORD: ‑‑ in our view.
1993
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
very much, Dr. Rutherford. Thank
you.
1994
DR. RUTHERFORD: Thank
you.
1995
LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame la Secrétaire.
1996
THE SECRETARY: Thank
you.
1997
I would now call on Commissioner Julian Fantino from the Ministry of
Community Safety and Correctional Services to present his
intervention.
1998
Commissioner Fantino, you have 10 minutes for your
presentation.
1999
COMMISSIONER FANTINO: Yes,
thank you.
INTERVENTION
2000
COMMISSIONER FANTINO: Good
morning and thank you for the opportunity to appear before
you.
2001
Rather than go through my correspondence to the Commission I just thought
I would highlight a number of issues that are pertinent.
2002
My role as Commissioner of Emergency Management in Ontario evolves into a
good deal of proactive work as well as, of course, reactive
work.
2003
We are also the body that coordinates the 444 municipal emergency
response plans in the province and, of course, we are the link between
municipalities, aid to municipalities that could be sourced from either
provincial resources or federal resources or
otherwise.
2004
So we have an overarching responsibility with respect to emergency
management issues on all fronts.
2005
Moreover, we are governed by legislation and we are mandated, of course,
to do certain things. There is
presently a new piece of legislation making its way through the legislative
process in the province which will redefine and better articulate roles,
responsibilities, accountabilities and so forth. That is in the process of going through
the system as we speak.
2006
The Province of Ontario has had a number of emergencies, some of them at
the local level and some of these are ongoing even as I speak but there have
been two major provincially declared emergencies in the province in past
history, one being the SARS epidemic that resulted in some 40‑odd people being
affected and dying and a whole lot of other affected individuals and
institutions, and of course, the blackout were the two primary declarations of
provincial emergencies in the Province of
Ontario.
2007
With respect to the matter before you with regards to public alerting, it
is an essential ingredient of any proactive strategy to enable us to ensure that
the public are made aware and that they themselves take whatever precautions are
necessary or required to safeguard themselves or family, of course, their
property and so forth.
2008
The Commission will know just how very vulnerable we are in today's
reality from potential threats from many sources, man‑made, weather or, of
course, natural circumstances, health issues and so forth, and the notion of
leaving everything to emergency providers is very, very difficult indeed without
the full awareness and involvement of the public in our collective efforts to
keep everyone safe.
2009
I have articulated for you a number of issues that go to why it is that
we support the public alerting system.
I am not here to speak to you about whether this system is better than
the next system with respect to technical aspects but I do have some points that
I would like to share with the Commission.
2010
Speaking for the Province of Ontario, we have some 40 per cent of the
overall Canadian population in our province and along with that we have some
very significant high‑risk issues aside from weather and those kinds of
situations.
2011
I do wish to convey to the Commission that we need to have these alerts
made available on a sustainable basis.
So obviously funding will be an issue.
2012
My view is that it should be mandatory, that we employ mandatory
requirements. Whatever system or
process is made into use should cover as much of the citizenry as
possible.
2013
I believe as well that it should be the government that decides who
should participate. I would not
leave it to private sector interests to determine how the public participation
will be addressed in regards to such an onerous, overarching public safety issue
which I believe is something that government policy needs to
address.
2014
I also would like to caution that any such system should not be used for
other than imminent threat information and there have to be criteria obviously,
checks and balances in place.
2015
It has to be an imminent issue, something that is about to happen in the
most immediate sense, and I believe that there has to be urgency to this type of
situation.
2016
What I am trying to convey to the Commission is that it not be
trivialized for just general nice‑to‑know information or information that is not
specifically identified to a threat.
2017
Warnings should be the primary purpose. It isn't a medium with which to convey
information ‑‑ the media does that already ‑‑ general
information. So we are talking
about threat to safety and security, imminent threat being the primary purpose,
and that's what these warnings should be about.
2018
And, of course, as with Environment Canada warnings about approaching
weather causes, dangers and threats, these are kinds of things that are very
critical.
2019
Now we in Ontario already are governed by a number of requirements to
warn the public on certain issues.
For instance, we have a provincial nuclear emergency response plan that
requires a warning to the citizens that are within a three‑kilometre contiguous
to a nuclear plant and then there is a further requirement for a scaled‑down
warning system to citizens who are in three‑ to ten‑kilometre contiguous area to
a nuclear plant in the event of an emergency.
2020
Now, this whole business of public alerting is not novel. We do that all the time in different
sectors, but most recently we have the Amber Alert, which is something that came
into Ontario while I was the police chief in Toronto. It was the first place that we used it,
in Toronto, it's now going to go across Canada, and it saved many
children.
2021
You probably know all that, so I don't need to get into it with
you.
2022
But by its very nature, Ontario faces a very significant need to ensure
that we not only plan, but we also bring into our efforts the need to ensure
that the public plans for their own safeguard and their own
protection.
2023
You have seen some of the disasters that have happened when people have
either not been alerted or have not taken the warnings. It just exacerbates whatever threat,
whatever danger is imminent.
2024
As I indicated in my correspondence to the Commission, the thing I would
like to also indicate is that every emergency or disaster is a local event, so
you don't need to broadcast alerts and warnings far and wide. And as far as checks and balances,
authority and control, in my respectful submission, Emergency Management Ontario
is already the clearinghouse for those kinds of warnings and those kinds of
emergency responses and we operate a 24/7 emergency operation centre, which is
in a position to address these kinds of issues and validate the requirement, if
you will, and initiate such a warning with checks and balances and
accountability in place.
2025
I don't know if, Mr. Chairman, you wish me to go through the rest of
my submissions, which are contained in my correspondence to
you.
2026
THE CHAIRPERSON: We have
read your submission, so if you may we have some
questions.
2027
If I hear you very well, at the end of your presentation you said that
Ontario has already has its authorized issuer of ‑‑ I don't know if you're
familiar with the CANALERT program that is ‑‑ or that has been discussed
yesterday, but they are ‑‑ there is a discussion about who is an authorized
issuer and you are saying that Ontario has already its formal agency in order to
meet that definition.
2028
MR. FANTINO: Yes,
Mr. Chairman. Even with the
Amber Alert, the Amber Alert has a number of checks and balances in place that
ultimately requires ultimate accountability on the part of someone to have it
issued.
2029
So I propose the same kind of process would be put in place as a matter
of policy to ensure that all of these issues are addressed and that there be
accountability for the use of the warning.
2030
THE CHAIRPERSON: And that
could be done in a very short time.
2031
MR. FANTINO: It could
be done, like I say, we have 24/7 operations. There is people who are there all the
time and we're all in contact and depending on the issue it obviously escalates
to higher authority and something like this would probably go to a higher
authority, either myself or my designate in the case of
Ontario.
2032
THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, at the
beginning of your presentation you mentioned that two major emergency event that
occurred in Ontario and you talk about SARS and the
blackout.
2033
Obviously nobody could have predicted that blackout, because as a matter
of fact the incident occurred in Ohio and almost half of North America was
blacked out. So no warning system
could have prevented that.
2034
MR. FANTINO: No. I only raised that as a criteria that is
used in our province, depending on the nature and the magnitude of the
emergency.
2035
But you're quite correct, when the power went out a lot of the normal
traditional warning systems would not have worked
anyway.
2036
There is all kinds of stories coming out of Katrina as well, where once
the communications broke down, batteries couldn't be charged, electricity was
not available, a great deal more chaos.
2037
But, you know, some of these you can't warn people, I agree, but there
are some, of course, that not only we can but we should.
2038
THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, some
could be predicted, as Dr. Rutherford explained just before you
appear.
2039
Now, regarding health issues, do you see the validity of having
warning? You mentioned the case of
SARS, but was that a matter for an emergency alert or was it a matter for the
broadcasters to pick up the story and follow up, as they did, when the SARS was
identified as a medical problem?
2040
MR. FANTINO: Well, the
type of public alerting that I think we're speaking about here would probably
not fit into that kind of a scenario.
2041
Again, I raised that as stating a criteria that we have in the province
for how emergencies are identified, but at any given time there could be
something in a health emergency type situation that we need to warn the public
about, but they would have to be imminent threats and not casual or nice‑to‑know
information that could be ‑‑ that can and should be conveyed
otherwise.
2042
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I
think ‑‑ I think the one that you mentioned about the required warning
system that has been put in place surrounding a nuclear plant is an obvious
one.
2043
MR. FANTINO:
Yes.
2044
THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you
briefly describe for us the process and mechanism that have been put in place
surrounding the events. So the
municipalities would contact you, the police forces, what?
2045
MR. FANTINO:
Yes.
2046
THE CHAIRPERSON: How does it
work?
2047
MR. FANTINO: Well, as
you know, every emergency or disaster is primarily, at least at the beginning, a
local event. If it can be managed
locally it usually is done so by local emergency
providers.
2048
But we are contacted, because we have a liaison, we have liaison people
on the ground in the various regions right across the province, so if things are
being handled at the local level we monitor, we assist, we advise, we help
co‑ordinate response if there is a need for added resources to be brought in,
the military, whatever, and we are in fact the direct link to federal
authorities to aid of local communities.
2049
If the emergency escalates to a point where it would be declared a
provincial emergency, the two I spoke about earlier, in that particular case the
Premier and the Cabinet and me as the operational person would then look after
the overall response to that emergency.
2050
So it could be a local level situation as long as it can be handled
locally and then scaling up, we would, of course, intervene at the province
and ‑‑
2051
THE CHAIRPERSON: Let's take,
for example, a local event ‑‑
2052
MR. FANTINO:
Yes.
2053
THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ that arises, say a train that derailed and was
transporting chemical and ‑‑ like happened in Mississauga a few years
ago. And let's look at it from an
emergency warning.
2054
The event occurs, say in Mississauga, a train derailment. Obviously the local officials are there
first, because that's ‑‑ they're there. So will they be contacting your agency
so that your agency will be contacting ‑‑ will be the issuer of the warning
or will they do it by themselves?
2055
MR. FANTINO: I would
not leave it to local decision‑making.
It should be something that has a higher clearance and authority and, as
I've stated earlier, part of our job is to also make sure that the proper
authorities respond to such an emergency.
2056
As you pointed out, for instance, environment people have to attend. There is all kinds of agencies that have
to be notified and we are basically the clearinghouse to make sure that those
agencies are notified, they attend and they do the due diligence that's required
in these circumstances.
2057
I would then put the authority for issuing such a public warning, public
alerting, in that same category, that we would assume the responsibility, make
sure that the due diligence is done and that the proper criteria and the proper
accountability is in place before it goes out.
2058
THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you have
a mechanism that makes sure that the system is not overused, because obviously
some people could see an event happening locally, but thinking it's of a great
magnitude, but in reality it's a daily case that other people have to deal
with. Do you have put in place some
mechanism of that nature?
2059
MR. FANTINO: Well, not
specifically to public alerting, because we don't have a system such as we're
speaking about that we would like to go to, but as it stands now, we have
override on some issues. But if I
can take your mind back to the Amber Alert system, we put policy in place that
governs how and when and under what circumstances that particular alert is
used.
2060
Same principle should apply to any public alerting system, such as we're
debating or discussing here.
2061
THE CHAIRPERSON: So those
are my questions. Legal
counsel?
2062
MR. McCALLUM: Yes,
thank you. In both your written
comments on also your oral comments today you talked about the provincial
nuclear emergency response plan.
2063
I just wondered if I could say how you would envision coordination
between your responsibilities under the response plan and the responsibilities
of one or other of these applicants, either Pelmorex or CBC or Bell ExpressVu,
if they were to disseminate the warnings?
2064
MR. FANTINO: Well, we
would have to, of course, ensure that the warning was of a level that ‑‑
oh, that the emergency was of a level that required such a warning. And then, of course, we would sign off
on it. We would be accountable to
ensure that the warning met the standards, the criteria, and that it went out in
a timely fashion, however that is to be.
2065
So we would be basically the clearinghouse for that type of information
going out.
2066
MR. McCALLUM: What are
you doing right now for the emergency response plan, in the absence of a
mandatory system?
2067
MR. FANTINO: Well,
there's a major debate going on now about sirens and other electronic devices in
the homes and so forth that is a matter of discussion. It is not been determined
yet.
2068
There are consultants looking at how the three‑kilometre contiguous to a
nuclear plant warning is to take place and the ten‑kilometre, the three‑ to
ten‑kilometre, but as we speak it looks like sirens will be the method to be
used.
2069
MR. McCALLUM: So you
are thinking of sirens like within three kilometres of Pickering, Darlington and
Bruce?
2070
MR. FANTINO: Yes, the
specification really is that there has to be within ‑‑ zero to three
kilometres must provide within 15 minutes of initiation warning to practically
100 percent of the people in the contiguous zone at that time, whether they be
indoors or outdoor and irrespective of the time of day or year. And then it has a lower definition for
three‑ to ten‑kilometres.
2071
And basically the way that that is now being looked at is sirens up on
50‑foot poles in the community.
2072
MR. McCALLUM: And
possibly house‑to‑house warnings as well?
2073
MR. FANTINO: Possibly
house‑to‑house warning. There is a
lot of debate about what should or shouldn't happen there, but it is being
worked on as we speak between the affected local municipalities and the regional
municipality as well.
2074
MR. McCALLUM: And all
of these efforts will continue, in any event, regardless of what happens with
the Commission's process.
2075
MR. FANTINO: Well,
that's right. But, you know, that
is only applicable to nuclear emergencies.
So we have all these other emergencies to also worry
about.
2076
MR. McCALLUM: And with
Amber Alerts what you do now is deliver an Amber Alert to the local
media?
2077
MR. FANTINO: To local
media, the highway signs that you see along the highways. And it has been so effective it is
unbelievable. And it has been used
even to a greater effectiveness in the United States. Florida, for instance, have had
tremendous success.
2078
But it is basically to the media, voiced out or ticker tape type on video
screens or in some cases actually voicing out over broadcasts and interrupting
broadcasts and so forth.
2079
MR. McCALLUM: If the
Commission were to say yes to either, say, Pelmorex or CBC or Bell ExpressVu
today what would you expect to be changed with the Amber Alerts in respect of
notification you would make to the media?
2080
MR. FANTINO: Well, I
would expect that the ‑‑ well, first and foremost, my expectation is that
we do this sooner rather than later, so I suggest to the Commission that there
is a sense of urgency about doing this.
2081
Secondly, my view is that the criteria should be developed by the
Commission so as we have one‑stop shopping application across the land. And then I would suggest that once we
are talking about an imminent threat, that that warning, however that is to be
done, go over to the public in a way that it's mandatory. In other words, it wouldn't be with an
optional warning. It goes out to
everybody who has access to whatever technology is available that would bring
that warning to their attention.
2082
So immediate, yes, imminent threat danger, mandatory, and of course to as
many people as possible, through whatever system.
2083
MR. McCALLUM: So it
might be the local media as well as, say, CBC or Pelmorex.
2084
MR. FANTINO: Well, my
view would be that whoever, however we can reach the most numbers of people in
the most immediate sense is what we should be looking at and that is why I
didn't get into one technical property versus another technical
property.
2085
I'm looking at it from the public's need and right to know as soon as
possible about any imminent danger that they are liable to
face.
2086
MR. McCALLUM: Thank
you.
2087
MR. FANTINO: Thank
you.
2088
MR. McCALLUM: Thank
you, Mr. Chair.
2089
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you,
Mr. Fantino.
2090
Madam Secrétaire ‑‑ oh, excuse me.
2091
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Excuse me, I just wanted to follow up. Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
2092
Just to follow up on counsel's point. I think you did say that this is a
warning system and not the details and that is left to the broadcasters. And you did mention a public education
component in your written application.
2093
MR. FANTINO:
Yes.
2094
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So
as I understand it, you see the mandatory warning, the text warning via the
broadcasters, via the BDUs, as mandatory, but in addition, it is a limited text,
it says there is an imminent danger, it is that
information.
2095
Anything further about what to do, anything further about what you should
do when you hear the sirens, that is a public education program. Who is responsible for that? Is it your
organization?
2096
MR. FANTINO: Well, we
would surely undertake if that was the next phase of the warning, if you
will ‑‑ first and foremost you just give a warning without some kind of
information about what people should do, but I think that the people, the public
can be directed to other medium to then receive follow‑up information about what
they need to do or ‑‑ all depends, you know, it all depends on the severity
of the issue. It may be that we
need to expand the original warning to include a few other very critical pieces
of information, but I would not make it, for instance, a story book kind of a
warning.
2097
Warning. Do this, do that,
whatever. This is why. And then we worry about the second piece
as we can.
2098
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Thank you very much.
2099
MR. FANTINO: Thank
you.
2100
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
2101
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Fantino.
2102
MR. FANTINO: Thank
you.
2103
THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam
Secrétaire?
2104
THE SECRETARY: Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
2105
I would now invite Mr. James Ferguson of the Salvation Army to make
his ten‑minute presentation.
INTERVENTION
2106
MR. FERGUSON:
Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission, I would like to thank
you for the opportunity to appear here today and to support the proposal for an
all channel alert system in Canada.
2107
I requested this opportunity to advocate ‑‑ and I'll use "ACA" to
cut down on having to say that many times ‑‑ be instituted. And just to give a bit of a context from
which I come, I'll just indicate there are several reasons and, number one, I
represent the Salvation Army, which is the largest provider of social services
in Canada outside of government and this includes emergency services right
across the country.
2108
My role in the Salvation Army is the coordination of its emergency
disaster services. I say across the
country, it also includes Bermuda, but that doesn't concern you people
particularly, I don't think, at this point.
2109
The Salvation Army is one of the non‑governmental organizations which has
formed an alliance, which includes four other agencies, the Canadian Red Cross,
St. John Ambulance, Mennonite Disaster Services and Christian Reform World
Relief Services of Canada.
2110
I would say that my colleague from Red Cross was planning to be here, but
he or I had to go to Regina today to meet with PHAC emergency social services
people, so he drew the short straw, I guess.
2111
What we have done in forming this alliance is in fact to foster a
co‑operative relationship and the purpose of that relationship is to provide
optimal services to the Canadian public in times of
disaster.
2112
Those organizations work closely with the Public Health Agency of Canada
and the Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada to ensure that our
efforts in disaster relief operations are conducted in an environment of
co‑operation and within the stipulations of governments at all levels, be it
municipal, provincial, territorial, or federal.
2113
In the best practices of effective emergency preparedness there are a few
basic tenets upheld by all emergency responders and I'm not going to go into all
of the details or the ‑‑ try to support one over the other, but I'll simply
select the key factor that has to be of prime concern to all of us, and that is
human life.
2114
And basically when a disaster strikes what governs all else is that in
order to accomplish the highest survival rate when a disaster strikes,
individuals and families within a community must be prepared to be
self‑sufficient for at least the first 72
hours.
2115
It is most opportune that this hearing is occurring in the same week as
the kickoff for Emergency Preparedness Week. I think this ties in very
nicely.
2116
What can organizations such as the Salvation Army and the other NGOs and
government emergency preparedness agencies do to promote this individual and
family preparedness and how is this connected to today's
hearings?
2117
Obviously there is a need for an effective program of public
education. Members of our
communities have to be taught how to prepare and know what to do when disaster
strikes.
2118
Equally evident is the need for the preparedness education to adopt an
all‑hazards approach. The steps we
would take in an earthquake are not the same measures we would take in a flood
or a terrorist attack with a dirty bomb.
2119
Therefore we must keep before us the absolutely essential factor that
teaching our community members what and how to protect themselves from disasters
is virtually useless unless there is some way of letting them know what's
happening.
2120
They need information, timely and accurate, so that they know when to put
their emergency plans that they have learned how to do and that they have put
into effect, what measures are required and for that to happen there are three
requirements for those whoever the accurate information for the people who need
that information.
2121
Number 1 is it communicate; secondly it is communicate; and thirdly it is
communicate.
2122
That, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason that I have advocated for the
implementation of an all channel alert system for several years now and it is
why I've written to you in three different years and why I requested the
opportunity to speak to you directly in support of an ACA for Canada
today.
2123
All the work that emergency responders have done in recent years in
promoting preparedness and educating the public will be severely hampered
without the initiation of a communications network which will trigger the
public's response.
2124
One step towards that would accomplish ‑‑ towards accomplishing the
capacity to reach millions across Canada would be to implement all channel alert
system which would initiate crawlers across the screen of every television set
in the affected region, providing the critical messages of an impending
disaster.
2125
As you are well aware, other countries in the world are far ahead of our
country in this regard. Indeed, I
can say from personal experience, as I'm sure most of you can as well, in the
United States the population knows it can count on the latest weather warnings
or alerts together with instructions whenever trouble is brewing, whether that
be atmospheric conditions that are right for a tornado or the fact that there
has been an industrial accident on First avenue and the following neighbourhoods
must be evacuated.
2126
Indeed, last time I was in Florida there was flash floods alerts and
those warnings came across the screen.
We knew whether we were affected or not, because that was made very
clear.
2127
Now, are the systems that are in place there perfect? No. And does that sort of approach meet all
the informational needs of communities faced with a disaster? Not yet. And does the system ensure that people
with various physical and communications disorders receive the warning? Not at all.
2128
But what the existing ACA systems do provide, however, is a very much
enhanced protection to the population, the viewing public in particular, of
course, which Canadians do not currently enjoy.
2129
I would appeal to you to consider in your very responsible role today
these additional facts: Contrary to
perhaps what we've heard earlier, it is not just in the mitigation and
preparedness phases of a disaster response that ACA would be beneficial, as
important as that function is.
2130
During the actual response phase people will need information about, (a),
what had happened; (b), the nature of the existing dangers if any; what they
should do to protect themselves; and where they can go for food, shelter,
medical attention; and how they can find out about the status of family
members.
2131
The roles of telecommunications facilities and systems will be absolutely
critical to the possible survival of many thousands of people victimized by a
catastrophic event. Providing the
mandate for an ACA system would be one measure that would increase the capacity
of communities to emerge with some degree of physical and emotional stability in
spite of what has occurred.
2132
Disasters take many forms.
In Canada we have been spared many of the weather‑related disasters that
our neighbours to the south have experienced. Statistically we have evidence that this
good fortune is beginning to shift and, whether due to periodic cycles or to
other phenomena, such as global warming, our portion of the continent is now due
for much more severe episodes of bad weather.
2133
Our country has also been spared many of the extreme expressions of
political and racial discontent, but we are not immune to terrorist
attack.
2134
We need to decide on means by which our population can be warned of
impending risk and what measures they should take to preserve the well‑being of
their families.
2135
One of the crises on the horizon right across the world is determining
how to best respond to a pandemic influenza and if I may I'll make an aside
here.
2136
Better information in Toronto, being one of the examples, during SARS
would have been extremely helpful.
I'm sure one of my previous colleagues would vouch for the fact that over
47,000 calls a day went to the hot‑line for information about SARS, because one
of the largest factors that had to be dealt with was fear. People did not know. They didn't know what they were to
do. They had to go looking for
it. It was not being provided for
them.
2137
So that, I think, is another role that could be played by this kind of a
service.
2138
Many sectors within the medical and emergency disaster infrastructure
have been working long and hard to prepare for this impending event, and I'm
talking here of pandemic influenza.
Prior to and during the pandemic, key messaging ‑‑ and I emphasize
that, because that applies to all kinds of incidents ‑‑ key messaging will
be vital to assisting Canadians to respond appropriately.
2139
Once again, an ACA system could be an enormous asset to getting timely
messages out to a public that could rapidly descend into panic and despair
without those messages. And these,
the messages, could be disseminated via this
technology.
2140
It was more than five years that I had the opportunity to learn about ACA
and the system that was being proposed by Pelmorex. Although my appeal to you is for
immediate action to move on the establishment of an ACA system for Canada and
although I have no intention to express a bias in favour of one applicant over
another, I can speak of the enthusiasm and corporate responsibility demonstrated
by Pelmorex when they invited me to their head office to view what they had in
mind for a system by which a large portion of the population could be alerted to
a hazardous situation in spite of the channel that they were viewing at that
time.
2141
Technically I'm not qualified to judge the merits of one proposal or
another, so I would beg you not to ask me questions about that, I'm not going to
be of much help.
2142
My job is in terms of helping people who are experiencing disasters and I
know information is a big issue.
2143
So the responsibility of choosing is yours. I will say, however, that Canada is
increasingly handicapped by the absence of a messaging service which ACA could
provide, so I thank you for your concern about this.
2144
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Ferguson. Commissioner
Pennefather.
2145
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good morning Mr. Ferguson.
2146
MR. FERGUSON: Good
morning.
2147
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Thank you for your comments this morning and your ongoing interest in
this area. Your expertise is
valuable to our discussion.
2148
I did want to pursue one point you made regarding your example of the
pandemic influenza and I think I understood a little differently from perhaps
Mr. Fantino's comments that you are looking at this service as both a
warning system in the pure sense of the term warning, imminent danger, and as an
information source.
2149
MR. FERGUSON: I believe
that is necessary and I think our experience in SARS has proven just
that.
2150
One of roles that the Salvation Army was charged with was the
distribution of isolation kits. On
one day in particular I well remember ‑‑ and this is an experience shared
by the Red Cross and by St. John Ambulance as well ‑‑ in distributing these
isolation kits, we had 1200 one day.
750 were delivered. An
attempt was made to deliver the other kits, but there was no one
home.
2151
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Deliver to ...
2152
MR. FERGUSON: To people
who had in fact been either contact with someone who was reported to
have ‑‑ had contact with SARS or whatever.
2153
I think it would be a public service as well, if people were aware that
there is a contact number for information, just that much, about an existing
perilous, hazardous situation.
2154
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
But I understand and currently now, though, let's assume that the ACA
service that we are addressing is not there, what would you do now, because
would you not through ‑‑ for information, for packages that would provide
further information, for support throughout, as we said earlier, a health
concern such as a influenza is ongoing.
It is not ‑‑ as in a tornado.
2155
MR. FERGUSON: That's
right.
2156
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So
would not existing broadcast media be able to play a role
there?
2157
MR. FERGUSON: That is
one of the means of doing so, but to be very direct on this, there is an
organization which is charged with the responsibility of disseminating
information, it is an emergency network of non‑governmental organizations,
interestingly enough, chaired by Public Health Agency of
Canada.
2158
The reason that relationship is there is that it is deemed, and I think
correctly so, that many of the not‑for‑profit organizations across the country
have contacts out into the community and therefore key messages could be
disseminated in that manner.
2159
That is certainly not the way you want to go for something that is
urgent, however, and needs to be delivered very quickly, because it is going to
take time to do that.
2160
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Okay. Let's go back, then,
to the very specific warning service that we are discussing at this hearing and
what I'm hearing ‑‑ what this discussion is helping us understand, I think,
is the number of agencies across the country which for very good reason are
involved in support in the event of an emergency.
2161
In the case of a warning system of imminent danger, if we narrow it to
very specifically that discussion, in your view ‑‑ you have heard our
conversations perhaps over the last day or so ‑‑ who should be the
authorized provider of the emergency message, in your
view?
2162
MR. FERGUSON: I think
it has to be the arm of government or designate that has the expertise and the
responsibility for doing so. If we
are talking about a severe weather event, then it should be Environment
Canada. If it is something to do
with an imminent attack, then obviously it is going to be coming either from
defence or another arm of government.
2163
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: It
is government, then.
2164
MR. FERGUSON: In a
position to do so. But I think it
should be a government agency in that respect. Everything that the NGOs do in emergency
services is done under the leadership, basically, of the government level in
which they are working. If it is in
a municipality, then it is the local mayor who is in
charge.
2165
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Do
you have any comment on how the alert system for the warning of imminent danger
should be funded?
2166
MR. FERGUSON: Well, I
certainly would support what has been said so far, because I ‑‑ I think it
is appropriate in ‑‑ as I say, in a couple of days we are kicking off a
campaign in which everybody will be getting a folder that talks about the first
72 hours and how to survive, because people have to take responsibility for
their own welfare, and I suspect that there is not very much way you can argue
against laying the responsibility for that at the feet of the people who are the
consumers.
2167
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
And final question, and I promise it is not a technical question, but
considering your experience in this area, is it your view that such a system for
warnings of imminent danger be mandatory to broadcast distribution undertakings
and broadcasters?
2168
MR. FERGUSON:
Absolutely, because if it is going to have any effect it has to get
out. It can't be just in a very
narrow channel. Right now we are
faced with that same sort of situation in that we've got very piecemeal means
and if it were not mandatory then I would suggest that all we are doing is
prolonging that status.
2169
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Thank you, Mr. Ferguson.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
2170
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Ferguson. We will move to
the item. Madame
Secrétaire?
2171
THE SECRETARY: Thank you,
Mr. Chair. The next intervener
to appear with the Rogers Cable communications, I would invite Mr. Ken
Engelhart and Peter Kovacs to come forward.
2172
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Mr. Englehart, when you are ready.
INTERVENTION
2173
MR. ENGLEHART: Thank
you, Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission. I'm Ken Engelhart, the vice‑president
regulatory for Rogers Communications.
With me today from Rogers Cable are to my left Pam Dinsmore,
vice‑president regulatory, and to Pam's left, Peter Kovacs, the director of
regulatory. To my right is Chris
Lapine, the director of digital television services technology and to my far
right is Suzanne Blackwell, the president of giganomics.
2174
Rogers supports the establishment of a public emergency alerting
system. It is time that Canada had
a system for the reasons that the various interveners have
said.
2175
We are fully prepared to implement such a system if we are asked to by
the Commission or any other agency or department of the Federal Government and
that commitment is not dependent on funding being received for CBC or funding
being received for CANALERT or any of those other things.
2176
We do, however, oppose Pelmorex's application requesting that the CRTC
mandate carriage of their ACA service.
2177
Now, I have something here to show you how an emergency alerting system
will work. Is that working? Yes. Thanks so
much.
2178
So, as we've heard, there is really three parts to an emergency alerting
system. There is the alert that
comes from a government agency; there is the distribution of that alert to a
cable head end; and then there is putting that alert up onto the TV screen,
either through a crawl or a forced tune down to a message of the type we saw in
the CBC video. So those are the
three parts that you need for an emergency alerting
system.
2179
We don't need Pelmorex for any of those three
parts.
2180
The first part is the alerts.
They don't come from Pelmorex, as we have heard. They come from the federal, provincial
or municipal governments.
2181
Now, as they describe in their application, Pelmorex proposes that these
agencies send their alerts to the Pelmorex distribution centre over the
Internet, over a secure, encrypted, password protected Internet connection. Well, it's just as easy for those
folks to send those messages to a Rogers centre, the Rogers server. In fact, it could be sent to all of the
relevant servers with a single push of a button.
2182
So what we have once it hits the Pelmorex server is a whole elaborate
satellite system to get that message down to the cable head end. But this is really sort of a
pre‑Internet type of solution. We
don't need that.
2183
Once it's at the Rogers server we can use our own distribution
network to deliver the signals to our head end. That's what we do. Our whole network is a giant system for
delivering things to our head end.
So we can get the message to our head end without
Pelmorex.
2184
Now, the last part of the equation is the head end equipment, the
receivers, the character generators, the force tune equipment. Again, we don't need Pelmorex for
that. They have a technology
solution, but all of the major manufacturers make these things. They are off‑the‑shelf technology. They are easily buyable. We can buy these things today. There is no reason why we need Pelmorex
for that.
2185
So all three parts of the equation we can do without
Pelmorex.
‑‑‑
Pause
2186
MR. ENGLEHART: So what is
the problem, then, from our perspective with the
Pelmorex solution?
2187
Well, the financial issue is really important. Pelmorex will be charging us
$2 million a year for their EAS solution. This is a lot of money for something
that we could do ourselves for far less.
2188
As you heard from Pelmorex, there are two ways of getting the message up
on the screen, character generators that are much more expensive, and the force
tune solution which is cheaper.
2189
If we used the force tune solution, we could buy all of the head end
equipment for $1.3 million one time, so we would be paying a one‑time cost
of $1.3 million instead of $2 million a year until the end of
time.
2190
We will have operating costs if we buy the equipment, but we will have
operating costs if Pelmorex supplies the equipment, because we are
responsible for operating their equipment in our
head end.
2191
One of the reasons why their solution is so expensive is that their
business plan includes all sorts of costs that we don't think we should have to
bear.
2192
There is a very high licensing fee of $2.6 million over their
first term to their affiliated manufacturing entity; there is $5.8 million
in education, communication and marketing costs; there is 41.4 million for
administrative and regulatory costs, in addition to $4.5 million of general
management costs; and there is $2.3 million of pre‑launch costs. These are all costs that we either
wouldn't have to bear if we did it ourselves or they would be far, far
less.
2193
I would also note, while we are talking about the financial model, that
we believe that their revenues are understated because they have not allowed for
subscriber growth. We would also
note that they are making a 17 percent profit margin, which again is something
that we wouldn't have to bear if we provided the service
ourselves.
2194
We also have a number of technical concerns. It's not that their solution couldn't
work, it's that there are a whole lot of things about the relationship that set
off warning bells for us.
2195
One, they don't really have any experience as an equipment
manufacturer. About half of the
$0.08, about $0.04 goes to the equipment.
They have never manufactured equipment before. We deal with Scientific Atlanta, GI,
Motorola, big equipment manufacturers, and even there we are paranoid control
freaks about the equipment we buy.
2196
So we are very worried about getting this equipment from
Pelmorex.
2197
They are also in the position of planning and managing our network. That's what we do. We are a cable company. That's our core competency, is buying
equipment for the network. This is
not even a secondary competency for Pelmorex. And any time you put a piece of
equipment into the head end, you introduce risk to our security of our network,
to the reliability of our network, to the quality of our picture, and if we can
control our own network then we can pick the appropriate level of risk. But if they are putting the equipment in
and upgrading it according to their timetable, it injects a lot of risk for
us.
2198
Another technical matter that is worth mentioning is that they have
stated in their application, they can monitor the alert as far as
the satellite, but they can't make sure that it got to the head end. We can make sure that that alert got to
the head end, so we believe our monitoring would be more
effective.
2199
Finally, I want to talk a bit
about jurisdiction.
2200
As you know from our brief, we do not believe the Commission has the
jurisdiction under the Broadcasting Act to licence the ACA service. The ACA service is alphanumeric,
therefore it is not programming. If
it's not part of a program, it's not licensed under the Broadcasting
Act.
2201
But the Commission has said there are some kinds of non‑programming
service, there are some kinds of alphanumeric texts that can be part of the
program, but it has to be program‑related.
If it's not program‑related, it's not part of the program, therefore it's
not licensable.
2202
So here it is obviously not programming because it's alphanumeric
text.
2203
It is also not program‑related, and you can tell that from a commonsense
test. If you are watching channel
183 and a tornado warning comes across in the middle of the golf game you're
watching, you don't think to yourself, "Well, I'm watching The Weather Network
now", you think "I'm watching the Golf Channel with a tornado warning". So there is nothing commonsense to suggest that it's part of
the program.
2204
But if the commonsense test isn't enough, the Commission has laid out in
the ITV decision very clearly what is program‑related and what isn't, and
clearly this isn't.
2205
So it is not licensable, it can't be the subject of a 9(1)(h) order, but
that's okay. All the Commission
needs to do is amend paragraph 70 of the Broadcast Distribution Regs. That's all the Commission needs to do,
to permit us to delete or alter the programming signals to insert our alert
messages and then we will do it.
2206
We look forward to any questions you have.
2207
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Englehart.
2208
Commissioner del Val...?
2209
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you.
2210
I was just going to ask if you could shift that so I could see Mr.
Kovacs. That's great. Thanks. So you anticipated my first
question.
2211
One of the questions is, I have read your argument on why this is
not a program or program‑related, but let's assume for a moment that it is. Now, my concern is then section 3(1)(h)
of the Broadcasting Act which essentially says that:
"all persons who
... carry on broadcasting undertakings have a responsibility for the programs
they broadcast;"
2212
I think none of the applicants want to be responsible for the content of
the message. How would I get around
the 3(1)(h) problem?
‑‑‑
Pause
2213
MR. ENGLEHART: Well, I
think ‑‑ I mean, a cable company is responsible for what they
do in their network. If our
server doesn't work right or our character generators don't work right, that's
our problem.
2214
We are obviously not responsible for the message because we don't
originate the message and the message comes from someone
else.
2215
I would also point out ‑‑ not necessarily that I should be putting
ideas into the Commission's head ‑‑ but if I'm right that this is a telecom
service you might be able to make people responsible or not responsible under
the Telecom Act.
2216
COMMISSIONER del VAL: How
would I do that?
2217
MR. ENGLEHART: Well, most
cable companies have some sort of telecom service, even if it's just a TV Guide
channel, which is an alphanumeric channel.
That's telecom. So in a
strict legal sense they are telecom carriers.
2218
They have never really been much regulated, but the cable industry has
had a couple of decisions dealing with alphanumeric channels where the
Commission has said what we can and cannot carry and how we would do
it.
2219
Even though it would be very unusual, legally, jurisdictionally, I don't
think there is anything to prevent the Commission from using the
Telecommunications Act to order the cable companies and other BDUs to carry an
alerting service.
2220
Now, if we were making submissions to you on that, I wouldn't be asking
you to make us liable, I would be asking you, under the Telecom Act, to limit
our liability, because I think if we are providing a public service like this we
shouldn't also find ourselves sued if something screws up.
2221
But that's how the Commission could do it, I believe, if you wanted to do
it.
2222
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Now, I
also gather that you are in favour of a section 7(d)
amendment.
2223
Is that of
2224
MR. ENGLEHART: That is
absolutely correct, yes.
2225
COMMISSIONER del VAL: There
does not appear, from what we heard yesterday, to be any agreement on the issue
of, say, liability for the signals.
There was talk about asking and needing indemnities, but there is no
agreement.
2226
If I were, say CTV, then I have a situation where nobody, no broadcaster
wants to be responsible for the content of the message, and yet when you remove
the critical element of 7(d), which is the requirement of an agreement before
the deletion or alteration of the program, then they have no
control.
2227
Why is it unreasonable for the broadcaster to have a significant concern
in that area?
2228
MR. ENGLEHART: I would be
very concerned if I was them, because you are affecting their signal. The fact is, if an alert message has to
be put up on all channels ‑‑ it is an all channel alert ‑‑ the
broadcasters of channel 87 shouldn't be able to say, "Well, you can use every
other channel, but not 87."
2229
So if the broadcaster's is that the alerting should be done in a certain
way and to a certain specification, I can understand that.
2230
Bear in mind, though, that as cable operators we have the exact same
concern that the broadcasters have, which is that our viewers are upset as
little as possible. We have the
same incentive as them. We want
very much, yes, to give them the alert, but (b) to be
as ‑‑
2231
COMMISSIONER del VAL: As
non‑disruptive?
2232
MR. ENGLEHART: ‑‑ as non‑disruptive as we
can.
2233
So I understand where the broadcasters are concerned, but it's not like
we have some different set of incentives that would incline us to do something
different than them.
2234
COMMISSIONER del VAL: You
are also advocating for voluntary participation at this point, aren't
you?
2235
MR. ENGLEHART: That's
correct.
2236
I mean right now if we consider section 7(d), we are actually
forbidden from doing an alerting service.
We couldn't do one, save and except getting all 500 channels on the 500
channel universe to consent.
2237
So right now the Commission is, in effect, forbidding us from doing
it. We think it is sort of odd to
go from forbidden one day to mandatory the next day. It makes more sense to go from forbidden
to voluntary. I think you will find
that the cable operators in Canada will respond. If the Commission says "This is
something that has to be done", or if Industry Canada says it, or if PSEPC says
it, the cable industry will step up.
Among other things, I think as Pelmorex pointed out, it is something that
is valuable to our viewers. It's a
valuable service. So we will step
up and do it.
2238
If you find in a couple of years, "Look, these cable companies are all
talk and no action, they are not actually doing it", then I think either you or
some other branch of the federal government should make it
mandatory.
2239
COMMISSIONER del VAL: So
then for as long as carriage is voluntary, so you have the choice of
transmitting the signal or not, and if section 7(d) were changed, would you
give the broadcasters an indemnity?
2240
MR. ENGLEHART: I don't know
exactly what I'm indemnifying them against. I guess they would be concerned
that ‑‑ I mean certainly, like we saw on the video, if you are watching
Rick Mercer and suddenly you are told about an tornado, there is an interruption
to the program. There is no reason
to indemnify CBC for that.
2241
I suppose if our equipment malfunctions so that it is a minute or two
before the viewer is back to the program, no, I don't want to indemnify CBC for
that, or anyone else. I am going to
operate that equipment as efficiently as I possibly can because as a cable
operator it is in my self‑interest to make sure that my customers have as least
disruption as they can, but if the worst thing happens I don't want to be sued
by a bunch of broadcasters too.
2242
COMMISSIONER del VAL: I
don't think anybody likes to be sued by anybody, but the reality is, say if I
were watching on CTV Canadian Idol and I look down the chain and all I see when
I'm the viewer, I see an alert. You
know, it could have been an error that it should not have been broadcast to me,
it could have contained wrong information.
2243
The point is that the broadcaster has no control, right. To them, they are probably in this
process you could say they could be a victim. From their perspective, what does it
matter who made the mistake?
2244
If you want to remove them from having any say at all when their
broadcast signal is altered, do you want to indemnify
them?
2245
MR. ENGLEHART: I guess I
would say that, you know, we do other things like simultaneous
substitution. Chris and his team at
Rogers have put in a simultaneous substitution system that we are very proud of,
but I wouldn't tell you that it never makes a mistake, that it doesn't clip off
a bit of a program or occasionally ‑‑ I might get kicked under the
table ‑‑ occasionally forget to do a substitution. I don't know if that has ever happened,
but I have never heard of anyone suing us
before.
2246
So as cable operators make the odd mistake, I have never ‑‑ I have
never known a broadcaster to sue us.
2247
But I guess when you say they have no say, they probably have no say that
it will happen, but I think they should have some say in any Commission process
about how it will happen.
2248
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you.
2249
Moving on, still on the legal argument side on whether this is a
programming service.
2250
I think you addressed it in paragraph 38 or 39 of your intervention,
but what should I make of the fact that the alert message is a severable portion
from the rest of The Weather Network's program?
2251
What does that tell me about program‑relatedness, for lack of a better
term, program enhancement, and how I should assess that severable portion
itself?
2252
MR. ENGLEHART: Well,
starting at the beginning, the Commission can issue programming licences. So a programming licensee under the Act
distributes programs. Programs are
sounds and images but not including alphanumeric text. So those are the only things you can
licence, is people that produce those programs.
2253
Where there is alphanumeric text, well, there is a problem. The Act has just said alphanumeric text
is not programming, and yet, as we have heard, there is alphanumeric text
sometimes on programming services.
2254
So the Commission has looked at this problem and said, yes, that
alphanumeric text is considered to be programming when it is program related,
and the question is, is it part of the program?
2255
So obviously, the fact that these ACA messages are on a different channel
is one of the things that would lead one to think, hum, this doesn't seem to be
part of the program.
2256
The viewer watching their golf game wouldn't know that that
program ‑‑ wouldn't even know what the program was on Channel 23, on The
Weather Network, certainly wouldn't think that that tornado warning is part of
that program.
2257
So from a commonsense perspective, the fact that it is on a separate
channel is one of the things that leads you to think it is not part of the
program.
2258
Then there is the ITV test and then the fact that Pelmorex themselves
have asked for a 9(1)(h) order for the ACA part but not for their programming
service is, I think, another piece of powerful evidence that it is not part of
the program and therefore can't be considered to be programming and therefore
broadcasting under the Act.
2259
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay,
thank you. I am glad you brought up
that golf channel example again. So
in that example, what would you consider to be the main program in relation to
the test, the three‑part test that is set up in 2004‑82?
2260
MR. ENGLEHART: For the
three‑part test for this alphanumeric crawl to be program related, the program
that the three‑part test applies to is Channel 23, The Weather Network. That is the program it has to be related
to. If it is not part of that
program or related to that program then it can't be the subject matter of a
programming licence for The Weather Network.
2261
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you. What do you say to the view
that Decision 2004‑82 is regulatory framework for interactive TV services and
therefore has no application in the current
case?
2262
MR. ENGLEHART: Yes, thank
you. I have got the decision in
front of me and in fact if you look at it you will see that it is more than just
analogous to this case, it is this case.
2263
So in the Broadcasting Public Notice, in paragraph 2, the Commission sets
out what this decision is about. It
says:
"One of the
questions put forward for comment in Public Notice 2001‑113 was: `What interactive activities, if any,
would fall within the definition of broadcasting set out in the Broadcasting
Act?'" (As
read)
2264
So that is really what this decision was about, which of these
non‑programming type things would fall within the Broadcasting Act, the same
question we are dealing with here.
2265
If you look down in paragraph 3, in the second
sentence:
"For example, some
parties consider that even programming consisting primarily of alphanumeric text
would fall under the definition of broadcasting if that text was program related
or was integral to a program." (As
read)
2266
So that is the very question we are looking at today, when does
alphanumeric text fall under the definition of
broadcasting.
2267
The argument in the earlier proceeding was it would if it was program
related or integral to the program, so the very question we are looking at
today.
2268
Then we go to the three‑part test and what the Commission said for their
first criterion is:
"The broadcaster's
intention must be that the information be seen by the same viewers as those who
are watching the video signal." (As
read)
2269
So The Weather Network programming video channel, their intention must be
that the same people that are watching that will also see the All Channel Alert,
and clearly that is not the case in an All Channel
Alert.
2270
If you look at paragraph 22 of that decision, I think it is beyond
controversy because if you look at the second sentence in that paragraph it
says, talking about the criterion that I just read, talking about criterion
1:
"Examples of ITV
content that would very likely fail to meet the first criterion would
include..." (As
read)
2271
I am skipping over one.
"...would include
interactive weather forecasts offered to viewers during a drama program." (As read)
2272
That is our fact situation.
"...interactive
weather forecasts offered to viewers during a drama
program."
(As
read)
2273
Now, it was talking about interactivity. So you have got an alphanumeric text
that says there is a tornado coming.
Interactivity just means you can click on it and something else will
appear but the facts are the same.
2274
The Commission has decided in this decision that an alphanumeric weather
forecast during a drama program would not meet the test, would not be program
related. So I take this decision as
being very powerfully on point.
2275
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay. Then what would you
say to an argument that, but what we are talking about in an alert message is
not an interactive activity and therefore this Decision 2004 has limited
application, it is not directly applicable?
2276
MR. ENGLEHART: Well, it is
alphanumeric text whether the alphanumeric text is something you just read or
whether it is interactive.
2277
Interactive means you have some sort of a cursor on your remote and you
can click on it and then you get a signal back. If anything, the interactive one is more
likely to be broadcasting because the thing you get back might be a
picture.
2278
So to the extent that this decision isn't directly on point, the case
that we are dealing with where it is non‑interactive text is more powerfully not
broadcasting.
2279
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you. Do you see any facts in the
current case which are different from the facts in 2000 which resulted in
Decision 2001‑123?
2280
MR. ENGLEHART: I
don't.
2281
I think that in 2000 the Commission hadn't really got around to thinking
aggressively about what type of alphanumeric text would be part of the program
or not. They made a decision at
that time.
2282
In 2004 they took an in‑depth look at the problem and they came up with a
more refined answer.
2283
So I guess I would say the Commission was wrong in 2000 and corrected
themselves in 2004.
2284
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay,
thank you. Could you please
summarize ‑‑ because I suspect that Pelmorex would want to reply on this
point ‑‑ how you apply the Pelmorex situation to the three tests in
2004‑82?
2285
MR. ENGLEHART: Sure. So the first criterion is
that:
"The broadcaster's
intention must be that the information be seen by the same viewers as those who
are watching the video signal." (As
read)
2286
So they have to intend when they send out the alert saying that there is
a tornado approaching that that will be seen by the same viewers as are watching
their Weather Network channel.
Clearly, they don't.
2287
The whole point of an All Channel Alert is that they intend that it be
seen by all viewers whether those viewers are watching their channel or some
other channel. You may never, ever,
ever watch The Weather Network in your life and you will still see these weather
alerts.
2288
The second criterion is that:
\
"The information must be available during the same interval of time as
the video signal." (As
read)
2289
It is really the first criterion that is the most relevant. The second one starts to get a little
bit more distant because the facts are so different.
2290
But essentially the idea is not only does that alphanumeric signal have
to be seen by the same people as are watching the video signal, it has to be in
the same general time period. You
can't send it later or earlier or in a different segment.
2291
Now, the Commission did say that for a service like The Weather Network
that operates on a wheel, that rule is somewhat relaxed. So for their alphanumeric crawls on
their own channel, the Commission said the time interval thing isn't as
important for a service like that.
2292
So criterion 2 I don't think has a huge relevance to the facts that we
are dealing with because it is dealing with timing.
2293
Criterion 3:
"The information
must be an integral part of the program."
(As read)
2294
Again, it is not a ‑‑
2295
COMMISSIONER del VAL: I am
sorry, could I stop you?
2296
MR. ENGLEHART:
Sure.
2297
COMMISSIONER del VAL: I
think the third criterion is:
"The content must
have a substantial connection to the main program..." (As read)
2298
MR. ENGLEHART: Yes, you are
right, you are right, you are right.
I was looking at the old version.
2299
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Yes,
the U.S. version.
2300
MR. ENGLEHART:
"The content must
have a substantial connection to the main program, providing enhancement to the
viewers of the main program." (As
read)
2301
Again, it may be that The Weather Network is talking about that tornado
at that time, they may not. It may
be, for example, that the alert is something having to do with, I don't know, an
Amber alert for a kidnapped child and in that case it may not be discussed at
all on the main program. There may
be no connection to the main program.
2302
So the third criterion that there is a substantial connection to the main
program is, again, one that the All Channel Alert Service doesn't
satisfy.
2303
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you. Going to the diagram, I
understand where you said, okay, the agencies can send the signals directly to
Rogers. But what if the government
wants to send the signals to only one source? In your example, then the agencies would
need to send the signals to the DTH providers and to the telco TVs, et
cetera?
2304
MR. ENGLEHART: Yes, they
would but it doesn't mean they would have to send more than one
message.
2305
I think when the agencies say we would like to deal with a single source,
I would translate what they are saying as we don't want to send a whole bunch of
messages to a whole bunch of places, we would like to send it
once.
2306
When you have a system of ‑‑ when you have something like the
internet, Environment Canada could have loaded into their database the addresses
for all of the headends of all of the cables companies and all of the satellite
companies. They then send out their
alerts, all of their alerts to everybody.
They just press the button.
Whether that message goes to Pelmorex or whether it goes to 832 headends
doesn't matter that much to Environment Canada.
2307
Then the way the system works is that message has a code, has a header,
has a number and the number says there is a flood in Brandon,
okay.
2308
So it goes to a headend in Fredericton. There is a server in Fredericton that
says, this is for Brandon, I am not even going to read it, I am not going to
look at it, I don't care.
2309
This is all done automatically by computers. It goes to every headend other than the
headend in Brandon and the two cable operators and the wireless cable operator
that serves Brandon. Those are the
four servers that would say, oops, this one is for us. They would open the envelope, electronic
envelope, the message comes out, gets fed automatically into the machine, gets
popped up onto the TV screen.
2310
So the agencies don't have to have a single clearinghouse in order to
have a simple delivery system.
2311
Really, you know ‑‑ stop me if I am going too far beyond your
question but Mr. Temple said yesterday quite
correctly:
"People are putting
too much into what CANALERT is."
(As
read)
2312
They are viewing CANALERT as being some sort of a server or place or
facility or building. It is
probably not.
2313
CANALERT is a system of rules and protocols. It is a system of instructions. It is a system of
codes.
2314
It tells the emergency alerting services: use this encryption technique; use this
password technique; use this way of describing the geographic locations; use
these codes to describe those geographic locations.
2315
It then says to the cable companies and satellite companies: you use the same encryption technique;
you use the same passwords; you use the same location
codes.
2316
Once those rules are in place, the system works without Pelmorex or even
without the CBC. The system works
because the power of the internet is such that these messages can get
disseminated immediately to the headends.
2317
So once the CANALERT system is in place, we will have a seamless system
where with one push of the button they will be able to alert
everyone.
2318
But before CANALERT is in place, it is not like Pelmorex has those codes
and protocols and things worked out either. They state in their application, we are
going to have to spend 12 months sitting down with everybody working on
it.
2319
So if the Commission wants to wait till CANALERT has these protocols
ready, we are happy to do that.
2320
If the Commission wants us to get started before CANALERT, we will do
that too because whether we are sitting down for 12 months with Pelmorex or 12
months with everyone else, we are happy to work out those
codes.
2321
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay. But I guess I just
wanted to clarify that with this diagram you are not against the government
having one intermediary, in that, say, if I were in their shoes, I could take
the view was I don't save, I have to send that message or programming to be sent
to 800 different places, I have 800 chances of getting it wrong and all I want
is I want to send it to one place and I hand off.
2322
Now, I thought that your position was that as long as you have a choice
of who that intermediary would be and that is not mandated that you can only get
that signal from one supplier, you were okay, but this diagram seems to give me
the message that you don't want to have any other source receiving the signals,
you want it to be ‑‑ I am sorry, you want to receive the signals directly
from the government, not through an intermediary.
2323
MR. ENGLEHART: Not
quite. I probably haven't been
completely clear.
2324
First of all, you are correct that as long as it is not mandatory, we are
not here to kick up a fuss. We are
here to let CBC do their thing ‑‑ if Pelmorex is not mandatory, if anybody
else wants to do their thing, that is great.
2325
And we might ‑‑ despite my brave words in this diagram, we
might ‑‑ Chris might be persuaded that the CBC solution is best and we are
going to use it or we might want to use it in our Newfoundland systems or our
New Brunswick systems.
2326
So absolutely, let all these people come forward and you are absolutely
correct that we have no objection.
2327
However, I believe that when CANALERT works out what it works out there
will be no central repository. I
believe there will be no centralized server. I believe it will be a decentralized
system of the type I am describing.
2328
I should ‑‑ you know, this is really Chris's area more than mine,
but I would view the central repository not as preventing
failure.
2329
You said if you have 832 places to send it, you have 832 chances for it
to go wrong. If you have a single
point of failure, you have a single place where something can go very wrong,
so ‑‑
2330
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Yes,
but I know who to sue.
2331
MR. ENGLEHART: Well,
that is true. But the important
thing here is that if the protocols and the rules and the procedures and
the ‑‑ quite frankly, the contracts, I would expect ‑‑ when I talk
about protocols, I don't just mean computer
protocols.
2332
I would expect CANALERT to disseminate a standardized set of contracts in
the same way that the Commission has a standardized 911
contract.
2333
So I would expect all the rules and organizations in an ideal world would
come from that centralized body. It
would be virtually centralized, because the protocols would be all disseminated
from that one federal agency. But
would the individual signals go to one server before they went out to all the
servers? I don't think it is
necessary.
2334
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you. Then in your presentation this
morning you said the ACA fee includes a built‑in profit margin of 17 percent
that is unacceptable for the provision of a public service of this
nature.
2335
So are you in principle opposed to providing, say, public service on a
for‑profit basis?
2336
MR. ENGLEHART: Well, as
I say, in the world that I envision, there is no one in my picture that is
really making a profit.
2337
The alerting agencies are government agencies. The police aren't making a profit. The people at Industry Canada and PSEPSI
who promulgate these guidelines and these protocols, these rules and techniques,
they are not making a profit. They
are public officials.
2338
So because in the way I think the world will unfold, there will be no
centralized database, I don't think there will be anyone to make a
profit.
2339
Now, if I'm wrong and there is someone running a database, I don't have a
problem with that database operator being a private sector operator and making a
profit. We had ‑‑ when we set
up the number portability system at one point we went out and hired a database
operator and they make a tidy profit, I believe. So there's nothing wrong with
that.
2340
I just wanted to clarify one thing that Mr. Lapine whispered to me,
in case I misspoke before, and that is when I talked about the 832 messages, if
there is not 832 messages there is one.
It has 832 addresses.
2341
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Yes.
2342
MR. ENGLEHART: They
press the send button once.
2343
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you. Now, if the BDUs are not
required to participate in a national emergency alert system and some of the
larger BDUs opt out, then how would the ‑‑ what assurances will there be
that the public served by these BDUs will receive a warning when
necessary?
2344
MR. ENGLEHART: I mean,
everyone's got to be in, I think. I
think when CANALERT does what they do, they are going to ‑‑ I would say
that we would try it voluntary, but if three years from now some of the major
BDUs are just not playing, I would think the government would pass a law telling
them they have to.
2345
If the government didn't want to pass a law, I've give you my devious
scheme where the Commission could do it under the Telecom
Act.
2346
I think the cable operators will step up to the plate on this. I don't ‑‑ it is time. I mean, public alerting, you don't have
to ‑‑ you just have to read the newspapers to know we need it. I don't think the cable operators are
going to be a big problem here.
2347
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay.
2348
MS DINSIMORE: Maybe I'll
just add something. I think there
is a tremendous amount of goodwill out there and I think that was demonstrated
in spades yesterday when you heard from all those who have been involved in the
CANALERT initiative.
2349
So I think it is fair to say that at the very least those who have been
involved over the past five years should really be given a chance to see if they
can do it voluntarily before any kind of mandatory solution is
imposed.
2350
COMMISSIONER del VAL: How
long do you think we should wait?
2351
MR. ENGLEHART: Well, if
you have a look at the Pelmorex solution they take twelve months to build the
equipment. So after they get
licenced they take twelve months.
They then start a gradual roll‑out.
2352
After three years OF their roll‑out they've covered 91 percent of the
Canadian households and then the remainder within the next two
years.
2353
So if you assume ‑‑ I don't know ‑‑ six months for the
Commission's decision to come out, a year for them to build the equipment, it is
sort of six and a half years under the Pelmorex system before everyone is done
and it is sort of two and a half years before the majority of the country is
done, so I would say ‑‑ I would give, you know ‑‑ I would give a
couple of years to see if the cable operators are stepping up to the plate. If they are not I would make it
mandatory.
2354
But I'd point out, too, that if each cable operator is doing their own
head end, it can be much faster.
You know, for Pelmorex to go to each and every head end and as they
describe have to figure out each cable operator's unique configuration and how
they are going to work, that is a slow, time‑consuming
process.
2355
If we are all building our own, it can be much
faster.
2356
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Then
from your point of mandated participation, should that come from the government
or by legislation of the Commission?
2357
MR. ENGLEHART: Ideally
it would come from the government as part of the CANALERT initiative and, make
no mistake, we would ask them as part of that legislation when they are
mandating us to absolve us of liability, but that would all be included in the
legislation.
2358
But, as I said, I believe the Commission has a funny way of doing it
under the Telecom Act if it wanted to.
2359
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Now,
forms of alerts, I'm just getting into more of the detail now, there are three
approaches as to how an alert will appear on the screen. There could be a pop up message on the
channels directing the subscribers to a particular channel. That is model 1.
2360
Model 2 is it automatically switches all of the boxes to the subscribers
to the channel that contains the emergency alert. That is model
2.
2361
Or, model 3, you place the alert rather than the pop‑up message on all
channels received by the subscribers in a designated area.
2362
So can you discuss the advantages and disadvantages of each of these
three models, please.
2363
MR. ENGLEHART:
Sure. So let's start with
digital and then we'll do analog second.
2364
In digital most cable operators have either GI boxes, General Instruments
or Scientific Atlanta.
2365
If you have GI boxes, it is a forced tune solution, your second
solution. That is through for us,
that is true for Pelmorex, that is true for everybody. There is no other way with the current
GI boxes other than a forced tune.
2366
If you have Scientific Atlanta boxes, you have a crawl. So that is how it would work with
Scientific Atlanta.
2367
For analog, you have your choice.
You can have either the crawl or you can have the forced
tune.
2368
As Pelmorex described, the forced tune is a lot cheaper. For all of our systems we estimate we
could put in the forced tune for about 1.3 million dollars one time. If we had to put in character generators
it would probably be 4 million or 5 million dollars one
time.
2369
Now, the advantages of the crawl is that it is less intrusive, it is less
annoying for people. The
disadvantage is (a) the cost, as I already described, and (b) it probably isn't
as effective as an alert. Like,
with the forced tune by God you know something has happened and you are paying
attention to it and you are not ignoring it.
2370
So we will do really whatever we are asked to do. If the Commission wants us to do it one
way or if the CANALERT people want us to do it one way, we'll do it, but our
preference would be for the analog service that we would use the forced tune and
we say that because in the same way that Pelmorex talked about Videotron's
interest in an all‑digital solution, they are saying, well, the era of digital
is fast approaching. Analog's days
are numbered. Nowhere is that more
true than for Rogers. We have a
huge penetration of digital boxes already.
We are aggressively moving to get as much digital as we
can.
2371
So during the brief life that analog has left or the medium‑term life
that analog has left, we would rather spend the 1.3 million than spent the 5
million and use the forced tune solution.
But even if we spent 5 million, you know, we would rather do that than
pay 2 million a year, because it pays back in two and a half years. So we can do it either way. There is puts and takes for
both.
2372
We might even find if we start to roll out forced tune and there is a lot
of customer complaints, we might switch to character generation. But that is our thinking to
date.
2373
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Then
what be model 1, where it pops up a message telling you to tune to an alert
channel?
2374
MR. ENGLEHART:
Mr. Lapine confirmed for me that the pop‑up is just a satellite
solution. That is not something
cable does.
2375
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay. Thank
you.
2376
If a mandatory alert system were approved, what would be the potential
implementation problems that you foresee and what could be done to forestall
them?
2377
MR. ENGLEHART: The
really important work is in those protocols and codes and routes and all the
rules. That is the tricky
part. That is the part that
CANALERT needs to do. And, as I
say, if Pelmorex goes ahead before CANALERT they need to do all that,
too.
2378
You need to have the system fully automated for it to work properly. That means the servers having to speak
the same language, the encryption has to work the same way, the passwords have
to be synchronized. Everything has
to be done properly with the rules.
2379
And that is why you heard people like the CBC and ExpressVu saying to you
yesterday, well, all this is contingent on CANALERT, because they are just
saying that the prospect of them trying to figure out all those rules is
daunting.
2380
But once the protocols are in place, once the system of rules are in
place, and the rest of the picture is there, the servers, the receivers, the
character generators, the system should work fairly
easily.
2381
The receivers and the character generators and the forced tune equipment,
this is pretty robust tried and true off‑the‑shelf
equipment.
2382
Having a server open up a message and transmit it to a receiver, it is
not that daunting a task. So I
don't want to underestimate the hard work that people like Chris do every day to
put pictures up on the screen, but I would say that the tricky part of a
mandatory system is the protocols and that is what we need help
with.
2383
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you. Does the provision of alerts
on on‑demand services present any technical difficulties?
2384
MR. ENGLEHART: It
does. Mr. Lapine can explain
it to you, if you want.
2385
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Please.
2386
MR. LAPINE: The issue
with video on demand, we can get the message to the customer, so the customer
will see the alert, but we interrupt the processes and the infrastructure that
is supporting the video on demand application, so we have to go back to our
suppliers and address their software, so that it can recover elegantly and place
the customer back into the video on demand experience.
2387
At this point in time it would tend to be a little bit more interfering
than we would like. So the message
does clearly get to the customer, but the return experience is less than
desirable at this point in time.
2388
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you. So the software and the
equipment isn't really equipped to deal with that yet.
2389
MR. LAPINE: That's
correct.
2390
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay. Thank
you.
2391
If equipment had to be tested and installed in your head ends and uplinks
for distributing the alert, do you see distributors being given sole
responsibility for the head end project or do you envision shared responsibility
between the private sector, the distributors and the
government?
2392
MR. ENGLEHART: Well,
again, I'm not sure that the government will be using any sort of satellite
distribution system, but as a general rule, yes, we like to test each and every
piece of equipment that goes into our head end and make sure that it is the
right thing and know everything about the specifications. So, yes, that is something that we would
generally like to do.
2393
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay. And would that be
something you could do on your own or would you see something like a CISK
process, the CRTC interdepartmental steering committee process, do you see the
need for a process like that?
2394
MR. ENGLEHART: I'll let
Chris add to my answer after I'm finished.
2395
Generally speaking, the last thing any of us need is a bunch of new
committees. And that is one of the
minor things that troubles us about the Pelmorex application, is all the
committees in there.
2396
That having been said, and Chris can explain this to you, cable operators
already cooperate, both in Canada and in North America, through cable labs and
also with manufacturers to understand more about the equipment. But I'll let Chris explain that to
you.
2397
MR. LAPINE: There
already is participation on the technical side with CANALERT to understand how
the protocol is to be established and with the vendors also attending those
meetings to make sure we have a universally‑applied system, such that CANALERT
and the CAP protocol can deliver alerts to not only cable and ExpressVu and
other BDUs, but also the cellular environment, et cetera, so it is quite a wide
spanning, so there is participation at the committee level to understand the
protocols.
2398
From a pure technology point of view, any technology that comes into a
Rogers head end undergoes extensive hardware and software evaluations in the
magnitude of months to half a year to sometimes a year, depending on the
technology, to ensure it does prove its reliability to us and that we can put it
through all kind of environmental testing and other software testing to really
hammer the product to make sure it will stand up the test of time and deliver
constantly to our customer base, including redundancy and recovery mechanisms
should there be power instances, et cetera, to ensure it is fully
reliable.
2399
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you. Now, if the national emergency
alert system is a shared responsibility between government and private sector,
you would have some costs. Now, how
would the private sector recoup its costs or would you absorb it
all?
2400
MR. ENGLEHART: In the
world that we operate in, you know, our prices for our products and services are
set by market forces, so I suppose you could say that because the customer cease
more value in the cable network they might be willing to pay something more for
their cable services, but I think for the most part we will absorb those
costs.
2401
This is, I think for us, a cost of doing business and it is a
good ‑‑ it is a thing that good corporate citizens would do, it is also
good for our customers, so I think this is just part of the cost of doing
business.
2402
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you. You are on the home stretch
now.
2403
If despite the concerns you have raised the Commission determines that
the ‑‑ that distribution companies must participate in the national
emergency alert system, what distribution orders and regulatory change would be
necessary?
2404
For example, should it be a issuance of a 9(1)(h) order, as suggested by
Pelmorex, or should it be an amendment to the distribution and linkage
rules?
2405
MR. ENGLEHART: The
trouble with my legal analysis that the ACA service is telecom, means that not
only can you not licence Pelmorex to do it, I'm not sure you can mandate us to
do it under the Broadcasting Act.
So first of all, of course, you have to amend 7(d) of the regs to allow
us to do it.
2406
As I say, I think the only way you can order us is under the Telecom
Act. I believe you can order us to
do it under the Telecom Act. Some
of my colleagues in the communications bar don't agree with me, but that has
happened before.
2407
So I think you could do it under the Telecom Act. I think if you, you know, issued a stern
public notice telling us all to do it, we'd all do it, but if you want to give
it the force of law, I think you would have to go under the Telecom
Act.
2408
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you. Some say that the Commission
should decline to consider the application. This type of application, because they
deal with public alerting, a matter that is outside our expertise and while
various organizations have this expertise, it is ‑‑ but it is the
Commission that has to administer the Broadcasting Act.
2409
So without the Commission's involvement, how would these organizations
ensure the broadcast and distribution of alerts?
2410
MR. ENGLEHART: I sort
of have some sympathy with the view that the Commission has not developed a lot
of expertise in alerting over the years.
Your counterpart in the United States, the FCC, has for many
years ‑‑ believe it or not, within the FCC there is a Department of
Homeland Security, so they have that right in the FCC.
2411
Now since the broader Department of Homeland Security has been created,
that department has shrunk a bit in the FCC, but they have been an emergency
alerting group with expertise.
2412
Obviously the Commission has a huge amount of expertise in broadcasting
and telecom, but hasn't dealt with alerting that
much.
2413
To our way of thinking, you know, the CANALERT initiative sponsored by
Industry Canada, they are the correct people to manage this process. The Commission staff attends those
CANALERT meetings and can give input from the Commission's perspective on any
broadcasting or telecom issues and I would expect would bring back to the
Commission any problems that they perceive.
2414
So to our way of thinking that is the best way of dealing with
it.
2415
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you. Mr. Chair, I would just
like to consult with counsel for a minute.
May I?
2416
THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, I
know that Commissioner Pennefather wants to ask questions. Vice‑chairman Arpin wants to ask
questions and I know that the legal counsel wants to ask questions, so you have
a few minutes maybe to talk with the counsel while we are asking our
questions.
2417
Commissioner Pennefather?
2418
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
You discussed the amendment to 7(d) as it ‑‑ the Commission only
needs to amend paragraph 7(d) of the Broadcast Distribution Regs and to permit
deletion or alteration of programming signals.
2419
I'm sure you are well aware the broadcasters don't see it as quite so
simple and that this is rather an important
point.
2420
My question is quite specific.
Do you have suggested wording for an alteration of the ‑‑ of section
7(d) of the Broadcast Distribution Regulations?
2421
MR. ENGLEHART: We think
the wording that the CBC proposed works well. We put that into our brief and we are
willing to go along with that.
2422
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Why do you feel that wording would address the concerns of the
broadcasters, that this is the thin edge of the wedge?
2423
MR. ENGLEHART: Oh, I
don't think it would address their concerns. I mean, the broadcasters do not want
their signal interfered with. Make
no mistake about it. If we go ahead
with an all channel alert service, this is going to annoy the broadcasters. They are going to view it as an
intrusion. I mean, you'll be
hearing from them later in the day.
2424
But I think their opposition is just a natural consequence of having an
all channel alert service. It is
something that we are just going to have to experience.
2425
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
And you would say the same thing possibly if we, the Commission in its
wisdom, decided to require mandatory carriage of the signal by the BDU, by the
distributors?
2426
MR. ENGLEHART: I think
we are going to do it anyway. If
you mandate us to do it or if it is voluntary, we are going to do it, so you can
make it mandatory. It doesn't
matter that much to Rogers, because when we do something we do
it.
2427
I just don't think it is necessary to mandate it. I think that good corporate citizenship
will prevail, but if the Commission feels that in the ‑‑ or the Federal
Government feels that this is too important a matter that even one cable head
end being left out is one too many, that is okay. I mean, we have lots of mandatory
requirements on us and we do them.
2428
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Thank you. Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
2429
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Commissioner Pennefather.
2430
You alluded to the U.S. and I'm sure that you're following up what they
do. You addressed the question of
VOD and it was a trigger to my mind what are the BDUs doing in the U.S. on their
VOD services when comes an alert?
2431
MR. ENGLEHART:
Chris?
2432
MR. LAPINE: I'm not at
this point in time aware of what the manufacturers are doing. They deal with the same vendors would
do, Scientific Atlanta and Motorola, so I suspect that they'll be putting the
same pressure on those.
2433
VOD environments are software related, so it involves many players. For example, you have to introduce the
VOD supplier and their software to make sure that they recover as well. So it is not just limited to two
vendors. There would be multiple
vendors and multiple software that have to get together and solve this
problem.
2434
There definitely ‑‑ at this point in time I would make the
assumption they are looking at the issue.
2435
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. We heard earlier this morning
Mr. Fantino from the Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services
of Ontario talking about the nuclear plant and their requirement that ‑‑ I
guess I think you are providing cable servicing around Pickering ‑‑ and
their requirement is that immediate alert is given to all people living within a
three‑kilometre around ‑‑ surrounding the nuclear
plant.
2436
Are your distribution plan capable to meet that
requirement?
2437
MR. LAPINE: In an
analog environment we would cover most likely more than the Pickering area in
notification to the customer base, so the message would be a little bit larger
base.
2438
In a digital environment we can isolate down to specific areas in that
zero‑ to ten‑kilometre range with specific messages that would go to that
environment. That is due to the
fact that we have a Scientific Atlanta set up box in
Ontario.
2439
If that nuclear plant was in New Brunswick the message would be a little
bit less controlled because of the forced tune environment, but it can be that
geographically located.
2440
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank
you. Well those were my
questions. So
counsel?
2441
MR. McCALLUM: Sorry,
just on the question of amending section 7(d) of the regulations you said you
would go along with the CBC wording, but the CBC wording, as you know, for
example in the agenda the wording is there and they propose for the purpose of
transmitting an authorized emergency public alert message and I wondered if you
had any thoughts on how the Commission would define an authorized emergency
public alert message if the Commission were inclined to do that
amendment?
2442
MR. ENGLEHART: Well, if
CANALERT ‑‑ you know, they have a definition, you could use that. I think that would probably be the best
way.
2443
MR. McCALLUM:
Okay. If the Commission
decided ‑‑ and let's go with your time frame ‑‑ in six months that it
decided we are going to amend this section of the regulations and the proposed
wording at that time and supposing the Commission decided out of this process
not to do anything else, it amended the regulation and that is it, as you know
we would have to propose the wording for the change to the regulations and say
four months later the wording could be put in place, so that, just
hypothetically, that is the time frame in early 2007.
2444
If that happened how long would it take Rogers to put together its own
emergency alerting system and, second, would Rogers actually go ahead with it
because in that specific scenario it would not be
mandatory.
2445
MR. ENGLEHART:
Mr. McCallum, in your hypothetical, is someone asking us to do
it? Like, I've always assumed we
would do it when either the Commission asked us or Industry Canada or PSEPSI, so
that would sort of be from my perspective the triggering
event.
2446
MR. McCALLUM: Well, in
that specific scenario it would be ‑‑ which is hypothetical ‑‑ it
would be permissive. The Commission
would be amending the section of the regulations, as you've requested, in order
for this to happen, to permit it to happen at the choice of
BDUs.
2447
So in that scenario, what would happen?
2448
MR. ENGLEHART: I mean,
I think the triggering event would not be the amending of the regs, it would be
being asked. A letter from the
Minister of Industry or a letter from the Commission, something like
that.
2449
From the point at which we were asked I think it would be about a year
before we started to roll out the service.
2450
MR. McCALLUM: So even
in the scenario that you're putting forward and the Commission amending the
regulations to permit it to happen, Rogers would not necessarily undertake to
put in place the system that is described without some other triggering event,
letter from the Minister or something from CANALERT or something
else.
2451
MR. ENGLEHART: I think
that's right. I mean, there is lot
of ‑‑ I mean, I don't think I'm being unreasonable. There is lots of things we could do or
perhaps should do, but something like this with a strong public component, we
would expect some public official to say to us, this is what you should be
doing. We shouldn't be deciding for
ourselves to do this.
2452
As I say, we don't need to be ordered, but we would expect someone in
authority to say it is time for you to do this and we've thought that should be
a federal authority. I suppose if
the Province of Ontario asked us to do it, we might consider it doing it there
too, but yes I would think we would want to be asked.
2453
MR. McCALLUM: Again, if
the Commission went one step further and accompanied the permissive change to
the regulation with an expectation that cable systems where they are able to
implement alerting systems, that they should do so without it being required, in
that scenario would Rogers start to implement ‑‑ and again without anything
else from CANALERT or the government.
2454
MR. ENGLEHART:
Absolutely. We would ‑‑
once the Commission identified that expectation then we would start to work on
acquiring the equipment and provisioning the head
ends.
2455
Simultaneously, just like Pelmorex, we would have to agree on the codes
and protocols and rules with the people that were sending us the alerts, unless
that had already been promulgated by Canalert. So we would do both of those things and
I would think it would take us about a year to start the
alerting.
2456
MR. McCALLUM: Thank
you, Mr. Chair.
2457
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Mr. Englehart, ladies, gentlemen, thank you very much for your
presentation. We'll take a
twelve‑minute break so we'll be back by 11:45.
2458
THE SECRETARY: Excuse me,
Mr. Chairman, just a couple of housekeeping matters before we proceed to
break.
2459
I would just like to remind the applicants that they have an undertaking
to provide the Commission with certain commitments, certain documents this
morning, so if you have them available, you can bring them to me at the
break.
2460
Also remind the next three interveners, Ville de Dolbeau, the Township of
Champlain and Alfred‑Plantagenet and Federation of Canadian Municipalities, if
they are present and they have their written presentation if they could bring
them to me during break.
2461
Thank you very much.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1134 /
Suspension à 1134
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1150 /
Reprise à 1150
2462
THE CHAIRPERSON: Order,
please. A l'ordre, s'il vous
plaît.
2463
Somebody just brought me a cellphone that somebody left on a sofa in the
hallway.
2464
I will remit the cellular to this gentleman, if it's
yours.
2465
Other than that, I'm asking Mrs. Secretary to initiate the next
steps.
2466
LA SECRÉTAIRE: Merci,
Monsieur le Président.
2467
Je demanderais maintenant à la Ville de Dolbeau‑Mistassini, the Townships
of Champlain and Alfred‑Plantagenet and the Federation of Canadian
Municipalities to come forward as a group presentation.
‑‑‑
Pause
2468
THE SECRETARY: We will move
on to the next intervenor, which was later down at the bottom of the list but
who has to leave. It is the New
Brunswick Emergency Measures Organization, Ernest MacGillivray, which is No. 23
on the list.
2469
If you could come forward?
‑‑‑
Pause
2470
THE SECRETARY:
Mr. MacGillivray, you have 10 minutes for your
presentation.
INTERVENTION
2471
MR. MacGILLIVRAY: Thank you
very much. Thank you very much, and
thanks for accommodating a change in the rotation.
2472
My name is Ernest MacGillivray.
I am the Director of the New Brunswick Emergency Measures
Organization. That organization is
the provincial lead agency for emergency management. As the Director, I am the senior
official responsible for the Provincial Emergency Management Program. The Provincial Emergency Program
includes a number of warning systems, including a telephone‑based system for our
nuclear emergency planning zone, and a province‑wide direct‑to‑cable broadcast
system.
2473
We also have a self‑subscription system that is in
development.
2474
New Brunswick is also an active participant in national initiatives on
public warning, including CANALERT, the development of the Canadian Common
Alerting Protocol, or CAP standard, and the East Coast Tsunami
Project.
2475
So thus I appear before the Commission as a public official with a policy
perspective, but also as one who has direct experience in the development,
deployment and operation of a variety of public warning
systems.
2476
Emergency managers generally ‑‑ and you will hear from many
today ‑‑ recognize public warning as key to reducing injury and loss
of life, as well as mitigating impacts on properly and
the environment.
2477
It has been said that the security of the public is the highest law. Cicero said that.
2478
To that end, we believe that the regulator ‑‑ or we might be more
general in that and say that government should act to enable the development and
deployment of systems to provide public officials at all levels ‑‑ and in
this I might differ from my Ontario colleague, we have to provide access to
municipal officials as well ‑‑ to multiple channels for the purposes of
broadcasting urgent warnings to the public.
2479
What is the rationale for public policy in this
area?
2480
Well, as a matter of principle those with the mandates ‑‑ and
that is government and industry ‑‑ and those with the means ‑‑ and
that is the owners of broadcast media ‑‑ have an obligation
to act, to warn the public at imminent risk by all means
possible.
2481
Given our wealth as a nation, our advanced telecommunications and
broadcast systems, it is reasonable to ask: Why are we not doing
so?
2482
We are not doing so because we do not require it. I should say mandate it. We have not enabled it, as some people
before you have argued, and we have not resourced it in any meaningful way. We need to address these
deficiencies.
2483
So we have a voluntary system now, which is really no system at all. A purely voluntary system hasn't worked
up to this point and, in my view, probably won't work.
2484
I would argue from a public policy perspective that as a matter of
principle those who derive opportunity and reward from their broadcast licences
and from the allocation of publicly‑owned spectrum, have an obligation to act in
the public good. It follows that it
is in the public interest to require that national and regional
broadcasters participate in all channel alerting initiatives as a matter of
public policy.
2485
We also recognize that there needs to be a policy framework to enable
authorities and broadcasters to connect in a consistent way, with appropriate
security safeguards and business roles.
We should enable, encourage and support Industry Canada's efforts to
develop and administer national operational policy. That's why you will find that virtually
all provinces are actively participating in the development of
CANALERT.
2486
Finally, we recognize that broadcaster can't afford to make the necessary
investments as there is no business case.
2487
Listening to the gentleman from Rogers, I got the impression that this is
fast, easy and cheap if just someone would make it easy for him from a
regulatory standpoint. But it's not
fast, easy and cheap. There is a
requirement to expend money, capital on the front end, in order to create the
connectivity between messages and systems.
2488
So can we afford to wait?
2489
Some intervenors have suggested that CANALERT will provide the
needed connectivity between officials and broadcasters, thus we should just wait
for CANALERT.
2490
The problem with that is that CANALERT is still an idea. It is not yet a system. In fact, there isn't a system
architecture as yet. CANALERT is
still at the conceptual stage. In
fact, when I'm being a little unkind I have said it's still in the PowerPoint
stage.
2491
Eventually, though, CANALERT should provide a program. It should be a program. It should provide the governance, the
policy and the operational linkages between users and system. But these systems and services still
have to be built.
2492
CANALERT by itself is not the system, it is the program. CANALERT may eventually be able to
provide the console that provides authorized users access to systems, but we
still have to build and deploy those systems, and we should get on with
it.
2493
Most developed nations already have public warning systems accessible by
government officials at all levels.
Canada does not.
2494
Given the spectrum of natural and human‑induced risks and hazards facing
Canada today, and given Canada's telecommunications capabilities and expertise,
we believe that public warnings should be enabled, governed and resourced as a
matter of public policy. To have
failed to do so in the wake of a catastrophic event would be difficult if not
impossible to defend.
2495
So we have the following
recommendations.
2496
First, we welcome the initiative and commitment demonstrated by the
various proponents all channel alerting applications. In each case, proponents have sought to
address requirements as they saw them within their mandate and
capabilities. It's clear that their
efforts need to be enabled in policy and resourced. Given the absence of a commercial
business case for public warning, some source of public funding is
required.
2497
In consideration of the merits and risks of the various applications, New
Brunswick believes it is essential that any proposed national public warning
system, including any all channel alerting system, satisfy the following
requirements.
2498
There needs to be appropriate governance and managed control of access
and use. We have to have
simultaneous broadcasts to affected areas in both official
languages.
2499
Simultaneous broadcast over multiple services and channels ‑‑ this
is not really just about cable ‑‑ in order to reach as many of those
affected as possible.
2500
Sufficient geographical specificity such that the system will meet the
needs of local governments, i.e. municipalities and First Nations. The municipality will tell you they want
to be able to warn people on the north side of the river, but not the south
side.
2501
One of the proponents is talking about geographical areas that would
encompass numerous municipalities.
That's problematic.
2502
Mandated participation by service providers and cable or satellite
distributors in order to provide a consistent level of service throughout
the country.
2503
I think it's great that some commercial interests may well be willing to
do this on their own in one area of the country, but that's really not good
enough. For consistency I think we
have to have mandated participation.
2504
At what point do you regulate or do you require it, that's open to debate
obviously.
2505
Finally, we think a funding mechanism is necessary to ensure that cost is
not a barrier to full participation by broadcasters, service providers,
distributors and authorized users.
2506
In many cases you have small operators. They don't have the deep pockets that
some of the larger ones do, so they would need
help.
2507
New Brunswick believes that the public interest will be best served by a
fully funded service that provides managed access to all cable and satellite
channels by authorized officials at all levels of government. The applicants should be required to
demonstrate how their proposals will address the above mentioned
requirements.
2508
Finally, I would just like to note that in January 2005 the Federal,
Provincial and Territorial Ministers Responsible for Emergency Management met in
Ottawa. In fact, it was the first
meeting in 11 years. There is a lot
of work to do, to catch up on. They
identified public warning as one of eight priority areas for joint work by
federal, provincial and territorial officials. That, in essence, was what crystallized
activity that was already going on into what is now known as
CANALERT.
2509
The Ministers expect, as the public expects, that we will collectively
sort this out in a timely way.
2510
Thank you.
2511
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. MacGillivray.
2512
Commissioner del Val will ask you some questions. Thank
you.
2513
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you, Mr. MacGillivray, for taking the time to intervene. I just have a few questions. I will start with funding, since that
was the last point that you ended on.
2514
Who, in your view, should be responsible for funding the initiative, the
initiative in getting the alert signals through the broadcasting
system?
2515
MR. MacGILLIVRAY: A complex
issue. Some of the larger expenses
will be for the last mile, so the last mile gets hard. To have a national program that has
national governance and policy, and so on, will require some funding. So one would hope that Industry Canada
will be successful in getting some funding, or PSEPC more jointly for the
CANALERT initiative, because we do need program design and development and that
costs money.
2516
To their credit, they have been doing it off the corner of their desks
for a number of years and they now need some relief.
2517
There are a couple of ways of doing this. One is from the public treasury, sort of
top down, "Here is money, go do this.
Go build it to specifications", and so on. That sounds a bit
onerous.
2518
It may be simpler to define what the reasonable costs are associated with
provisioning a service, whether it's at the distribution end or whether it's at
a provincial level where the applications are, and then figure out a business
model that distributes the costs fairly across governments, broadcasters, and so
on, and where people are interested in something above and beyond what might be
pushed to them, subscription services, I think people wold be willing to pay,
and studies have shown that people would be willing to pay a convenience fee for
alerts that are of interest to them.
2519
I will give you one specific example. In the United States Amber Alerts, which
are always enabled for public access to the various systems that are used to
generate the message, Nextel picks up those messages from a publicly accessible
place out there on the Internet somewhere, and they rebroadcast those to
subscribers over cellular services using SMS. People pay for that
service.
2520
So I don't think there is any single answer to that. I think you have to get a bunch of
people around the table, look at what the best business model is that is going
to least inconvenience any of the parties.
2521
What I would add to that, though, is if we just get funding for CANALERT
and we do nothing else, who builds the last mile? That would be very difficult ‑‑ is
in Alberta very difficult, and New Brunswick, because the resources just
aren't there to do it.
2522
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Along
the same lines, if the private sector participated in funding the costs, do you
have any views whether it should be on a non‑profit basis or is it as long as it
is cost‑effective it doesn't really matter?
2523
What would your view be on that?
2524
MR. MacGILLIVRAY: Well, not
arguing for or against. I think
there is ‑‑ forgive me, I have a military background.
2525
I think there is a little smoke on the battlefield in that issue, because
if you talk to people within Pelmorex, and I have, this 17 percent thing
that's kind of touted as being a little bit excessive, at the same time they
will tell you that they don't expect to actually make any money. So it's all how you evaluate the
business model, what criteria you apply in terms of defining what is
profit.
2526
But the issue with whether it's Rogers or Pelmorex or anybody else
in the cable business, they have a huge capital cost on the front end. So there is the outlay of money, the
lost opportunity costs, the sustainment of the infrastructure, pretty hard to
quantify.
2527
That said, I think I have a line, I just have to find
it.
2528
I think the public's right to know is more important than a
corporate interest and an inconvenience or a cost to that corporate
interest, particularly if that corporate interest is deriving
profit.
2529
So we don't want lack of funding to be a barrier. I don't think that people should be in
the public warning business seeking profit, but I wouldn't qualify as I
understand any of the proponents applications in those terms. It think it is just a question of making
sure that they don't run in the red excessively in the absence of a level
playing field.
2530
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you.
2531
Now, what is opinion on who should be the authorized issuers of the
alerts? Who should decide when an
alert should be issued?
2532
MR. MacGILLIVRAY: Well, I
believe that you need to have a distributed access model, first of all, where an
authority at a senior level ‑‑ let's say for the sake of argument the
Government of Canada if we are talking about a CANALERT‑sponsored
solution ‑‑ they would authorize different provincial users to be on that
system.
2533
Traditionally, and I think legislation at the provincial level will
support this, it is provincial government officials responsible for emergency
management, or indeed the police if you look at Amber Alert as a specific case,
or local authorities as empowered by provincial legislation. So most provinces have an Act with
respect to emergency management, my province does, and essentially
municipalities have the same responsibilities within their boundaries that the
province has generally.
2534
That said, and given that all emergencies are local, you need to empower
authorized users at a municipal level, you have to have authorized users at a
provincial level, and I think you need to let the provincial authorities decide
who the provincial actors would be, and you need to let the municipal
authorities decide who the municipal actors should be.
2535
That's what distributed access is about. So you create different classes of users
and they in turn can assign rights to lower levels. That in fact is the U.S. model. That's how it's
done.
2536
COMMISSIONER del VAL: So
CANALERT, their proposal is for what they call authorized users ‑‑ it is
actually authorized issuer ‑‑ is public officials who have legislative
authority and/or responsibility for emergency planning.
2537
Do you agree? Would you add
to that or take something away?
2538
MR. MacGILLIVRAY: I probably
should have waded in on that point earlier because we were in fact consulted on
the guidelines.
2539
We typically talk about emergency management. Planning is an aspect of preparedness,
preparedness is one of four ‑‑ or if you're a heretic five ‑‑
recognized principles in doctrine of emergency management.
2540
So the old model was to talk about emergency planning. We don't talk about emergency planning
any more, we talk about emergency management as a program and systems approach
to the prevention, mitigation, preparedness, response, recovery related to
emergencies. So I would just change
a word there and it's probably close to being correct.
2541
COMMISSIONER del VAL: You
would change "planning" to "management"?
2542
MR. MacGILLIVRAY: Yes. I think most legislation now,
particularly the draft federal legislation, the revised Emergency Preparedness
Act, is now in fact called the Emergency Management Act, and I believe the new
government has the intention of resubmitting that to the
House.
2543
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you.
2544
Then in the emergency alerts, do you think we should limit it to only
incidents that pose threats to life as opposed to also
property?
2545
MR. MacGILLIVRAY: There are
really two things going on there.
You have the actual message content, and if you are familiar with the CAP
protocol, CAP talks about the urgency of the message, it talks about the
probability of the message. I have
my CAP expert sitting in the back of the room.
2546
There is provision for geocoding and different types of messages or what
are commonly known as EAS codes. So
there are many, many elements in the CAP schema, which is an XML format, which
is standard computer interchange format that is commonly used
now.
2547
So within CAP you can define the kind of message it is and the urgency of
it, and broadcasters have suggested that they only want to see an ongoing
broadcast interrupted for the most urgent messages,
direct‑to‑air.
2548
But you could have other classes of messages, in fact there are other
classes of messages. Some
broadcasters might say, well, if it's the second level we will put it out at the
next commercial break as opposed to automatic
over‑the‑air.
2549
Third would be something of less importance, but nevertheless something
that should go to the public.
That can be done at the next news break.
2550
So CAP within it embedded provides information about the severity of the
message.
2551
The other side of this, though, is, do you want to build infrastructure
just for the most urgent message, or do you want to build a system or
infrastructure that will handle the full spectrum of emergency messages or
emergency public information? I
would argue the latter.
2552
Experts have said, if you just build a system that's only for the most
severe incident, the tornado or the flash flood, you now put it on the wall,
it's behind glass and there is a sign there that says, you know, "In the event
of the most urgent thing break glass and pull this lever and use this system
just for that thing".
2553
As a guy who deals with floods every year, and at all times of the year,
that is not very practical for me, and it's not very advisable for my
staff. To have two different
consoles, two different systems on two different machines in two different rooms
for a flood watch vice a flood warning, that defies common
sense.
2554
So whatever gets built should be able to handle messages of various types
and severities. The issue becomes
business rules for which of those messages are allowed to go direct‑to‑air. Certainly the broadcasters are partners
in this and I think they should only be obliged to facilitate
direct‑to‑broadcast of the most urgent messages, but we shouldn't build a system
architecture that only is for those most urgent messages. It will hardly ever be
used.
2555
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you. That's very
helpful.
2556
Going on, about public education.
What advice would you give with respect to a possible public education
program to inform the public of the existence of the alerting system, how it
will be used and what the public should expect of the
alerts?
2557
MR. MacGILLIVRAY: If you
will indulge me, a very short story.
2558
Last spring in New Brunswick we had some severe flooding and it came a
lot harder than was predicted and it caught people by surprise. We had a whole bunch more rain in fact
than our Environment Canada colleagues had predicted and that skewed our models
and we were wrong on a forecast.
2559
So during the flood we actually had one woman who called up
EMO ‑‑ we have a toll free number ‑‑ and she was in desperate
straits and she needed help.
There was water coming in her basement, she didn't know what to do. She actually living in a city. We said, "Have you called 9‑1‑1?" And she said,
"No."
2560
Anyway, she hung up and a month later at a public meeting she approached
me and she was in tears, she was weeping, she was extremely upset. She had been given the runaround, she
called the 800 number, no one would help her, they wouldn't tell her what to
do. I said, "What did they
say?" She said, "Well, call
9‑1‑1." "Well, did you do
that?" "Well, no, I didn't know
what 9‑1‑1 was."
2561
She was from Newfoundland.
Newfoundland doesn't have a province‑wide 9‑1‑1 program. Now, since I was six years old I
knew ‑‑ and I grew up in Grandmere, Québec ‑‑ I knew you called 9‑1‑1
and the cops came and they took care of whatever the problem
was.
2562
You can't have an emergency program, particularly around known hazards
like a nuclear site, without having a public education component. But similarly, if we are going to have a
national system for public warning, the public have to know about it. In the absence of public education there
will be very many people who won't know about it, so you could have tragic
consequences.
2563
So I would argue that you must have public education associated with
any initiative like ACA.
2564
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you.
2565
So a national alerting system must integrate its procedures and
facilities with those of emergency planning organizations at the various
government levels, the three levels of government.
2566
Now, governments and government officials, however, change. That is a fact that may hamper the
ability of a national alerting system provider to ensure that coordination
occurs in a consistent and substantive manner, and a change in government may
also raise different priorities, especially with respect to emergency
planning.
2567
What processes or mechanisms would you suggest be in place to ensure the
necessary ongoing coordination between the national alerting system and
government officials at the three different levels of
government?
2568
MR. MacGILLIVRAY: We have
very good governance structures that have been built since 2001. I won't belabour them all, but before
2001 much work in public security and emergency management was disconnected,
within the federal family and nationally.
2569
There has been a tremendous improvement since the creation of PSEPC and
the publication of the national security policy, which is the overarching policy
guidance for emergency management work.
2570
What I can tell you is that we have an effective forum of deputy
ministers ‑‑ there are two of course, there is a federal one which is
chaired by PSEPC, but there is also a federal, provincial, territorial one. Those deputy ministers have on
their work place CANALERT and issues relating to
public warning.
2571
The senior officials responsible for emergency management is an FPT
group, so you have 14 jurisdictions and then you also have federal
officials at a DG level from PSEPC and Industry Canada and others as
needed. That body essentially is
responsible to get the work done.
And there is accountability.
2572
So public warning as a national program I think would simply plug into
the existing national governance structures that we have at a ministerial level,
at a deputy minister's level and at an official level.
2573
As you know, and as you have heard, work is ongoing. So we have a governance structure in
place and when a program is developed we would ‑‑ national programs require
national governance, so there would be an adjunct to manage that
piece.
2574
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you.
2575
Those are my questions, Mr. Chair.
2576
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Commissioner del Val.
2577
In your description you described that there were various levels of
warnings and you said that there was obviously the imminent, then you said
that there were those that could be broadcast at the next commercial break and,
finally, the other, the lesser degree that could be discussed in the
next newscast.
2578
You said that you had discussions with Pelmorex regarding their
plan. Have you every raised with
them the issues of the secondary and third layer dissemination of information,
because my understanding is that the service that they are proposing is for a
very immediate warning.
2579
MR. MacGILLIVRAY: It is, but
remember they are part of that last mile.
So on the broadcaster end I think to some degree they get to decide. We in fact have an agreement with
Pelmorex that says they will publish over The Weather Network and MétéoMédia the
most urgent class of messages, but that's it. So it is life
safety.
2580
Flash flood would be a typical example in New Brunswick. Tornado warning also, but that would
originate with Environment Canada, it wouldn't originate with me. But we would certainly do flood
warnings, we would do boil orders where E. coli has been discovered in a
municipal water supply, those kinds of things.
2581
My argument is that the architecture of the systems that we create
nationally to enable the transmission of these messages shouldn't just be
limited to those most urgent messages.
But in terms of direct‑to‑broadcast, yes, I would say they should be
limited to just the most urgent class.
2582
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank
you.
2583
Legal counsel wants to ask you a question.
2584
MR. McCALLUM: What has been
the experience, then, with Pelmorex?
For example, since the agreement have you actually disseminated some of
those warnings and have them go over Pelmorex's system.
2585
MR. MacGILLIVRAY:
Thankfully, no, in that we have had an easy spring in New Brunswick. But last year ‑‑ I want to give you
an analogy, because one of the complaints about our response in New Brunswick
last year was "You were warning us, but when the situation changed you didn't
come and knock on the door and tell us how high the water was going to be in the
backyard." Well, from a
technological perspective I had no way of doing that.
2586
What they have asked us to do, in essence, in public hearings, is "We
know you were ringing the alarm bell."
We were at a warning level on Tuesday and it flooded on Friday. So we put out warnings on Tuesday and
Wednesday and Thursday and three times on Friday, but it still wasn't enough
because those were generalized warnings and they didn't tell people what the
impacts were going to be where they were.
2587
People seem to have difficulty interpreting something that says "There is
going to be 4.3 metres in Jemseg tomorrow". The don't really know what that
means.
2588
So really what they said is, "We know you were ringing the alarm, but
when it got worse we wanted you to ring the alarm bell
harder."
2589
So the reason I sat down with my partners in this initiative that we
have ‑‑ and it's not just Pelmorex, it's also Comlabs, Communication
Laboratories, who are the vendor for the U.S.‑based ‑‑ the new U.S.‑based
system.
2590
What I said was, I wanted to be able to ring the alarm bell harder, and
that's essentially what Pelmorex has offered to do. So when we have the most urgent type of
message, this is an added thing that we can do.
2591
What is unique about their technology is, it gives me geographical
specificity. I'm not talking about
turning on 815 head ends. I'm
talking about turning on one head end, the one that just communicates down into
the affected area.
2592
If they were able to further develop their system, they would be able to
provide us with more geographical specificity than that, perhaps down ‑‑
and depending on what we do with CAP, probably down to census subdivision
areas. So we are talking the
ability to segment a municipal area and just target those
folks.
2593
So I might have wondered off the topic there, counsel, I'm
sorry.
2594
MR. McCALLUM: I just wanted
to get a sense of what you had to do and what they had to do to implement the
agreement.
2595
So what you had to do was sit down and specify the types of alert
that you would provide, and what they had to do was to put in
specific equipment.
2596
MR. MacGILLIVRAY: You are
mostly right.
2597
Just to be clear ‑‑ because I'm just hearing some of the comment,
I'm not sure people have quite grasped this concept ‑‑ I don't send
anything to Pelmorex. What I do is,
I publish an EAS message using a CAP standard. They and Rogers and CBC and anybody else
could go to the place where that message is published and they in turn could
disseminate it if they chose to do so.
2598
Pelmorex is one corporate entity that has said "We will do that for
you". None of the other ones have
done that.
2599
But there seems to be a willingness from some of the industry intervenors
here to do that sort of thing, so I would say, "Okay, fine. Come talk to me. We can tell you how to do
it."
2600
The suggestion that it is non‑trivial to take that CAP message and
disseminate it, I think you need to take that with a grain of salt. It costs Pelmorex money to enable the
picking up of the message from a publicly accessible place and putting it out
over their infrastructure.
2601
Clearly there are costs involved.
I didn't incur any of those costs, that is something that they did
internally for their own reasons.
2602
MR. McCALLUM: Sorry, in
clarifying something unfortunately you confused things for me just to one
extent.
2603
You published the message on a website?
2604
MR. MacGILLIVRAY: The
message is actually published in the U.S. emergency
infrastructure.
2605
MR. McCALLUM: How does
Pelmorex know to go to that website to get it and distribute
it?
2606
MR. MacGILLIVRAY: We use the
application that Comlabs provides.
So the application that I use to create the emergency alerting
message, the CAP message if you will, that uses a standardized format, that same
software Pelmorex has and their rights on that system automatically ‑‑ I'm
not sure whether it's a pull or a push, but anyway, they receive notice of that
message and they can actually receive the message automatically because
somewhere in their rights it says "Anything that gets published by New Brunswick
Emergency Measures Organization by this authorized user on the system, they have
an interest in that."
2607
They now have the message and they disseminate it in accordance with the
terms or whatever, in accordance with the content of the message. So if the message says, "This is for
Restigouche County", it goes to Restigouche County. But if it says it's for Restigouche
County but it's not an urgent message, the it wouldn't go
out.
2608
So it is what is commonly known as a managed network. So they are a user on the network, I am
a user on the network. I publish
alerts within my geographical boundaries of various types. They are paying attention to that and
their application automatically serves up to them any messages that I have
created that satisfy the conditions.
2609
MR. McCALLUM: So if there is
a flood heading for Saint John, New Brunswick and I am the cable operator in
Saint John, New Brunswick, could I have access to your message in some way and
put it over my system?
2610
MR. MacGILLIVRAY: Indeed you
could, but you would have to be a member of this managed network, so you would
need a licence that would probably ‑‑ and I'm not a proponent for the
vendor ‑‑ it would cost a monthly service fee to be a member of that
network, and there is a one‑time set‑up fee.
2611
But once it's set up, yes, when I publish a message and it goes out over
The Weather Network, it could also go out over Rogers from their head end at
Saint John, if in fact they have a head end in Saint John. I know they have one in
Fredericton.
2612
So they would have to enable something on their end. They would incur a cost. We talked about costs. But it is doable.
2613
They don't have to wait for CANALERT to roll out a console or a system or
an application. This is
off‑the‑shelf and it's in common use, by the way I might add, in 11
States.
2614
MR. McCALLUM: Is your alert
published in any publicly available place simultaneously with it being published
in the way you have described?
2615
MR. MacGILLIVRAY: The user
of the system, the issuer has a choice to enable or not enable a message for
public access. So I can enable
messages for public access. An
Amber Alert would be an example where you would do so.
2616
However, I'm not sure that there is much of a community of practice out
there yet in Canada to take advantage of that feature, but once it's known there
is no reason why it couldn't be served up by somebody on a website or one of the
telcos couldn't elect to disseminate that to subscribers on an SMS service of
some kind.
2617
So yes, once it's enabled for public access it's in a standardized
format, an XML format, it is relatively easy for third parties to take that
message and do with it whatever they want to do with it.
2618
MR. McCALLUM: Thank you,
Mr. Chair.
2619
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
counsel.
2620
Thank you, Mr. MacGillivray.
2621
We will break for lunch. We
will be back at 1:30 p.m.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1228 /
Suspension à 1228
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1332 /
Reprise à 1332
2622
THE CHAIRPERSON: Order,
please. À l'ordre, s'il vous
plaît.
2623
Madame la Secrétaire.
2624
LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci, Monsieur le Président.
2625
Before we continue, I would just like to make an announcement to indicate
that the applicants have filed their undertakings with the panel and that is the
undertakings from Pelmorex, Bell ExpressVu and
CBC/Radio‑Canada.
2626
For the record, Pelmorex has asked that one document be kept
confidential. All other documents
will be made available on the public file.
If anybody wishes to view them, they will be in the public examination
room. Thank
you.
2627
We will now go on to the next panel of interveners, which is CanWest
Media Works Inc., CHUM Limited and CTV Inc.
2628
Gentlemen and ladies, you have 10 minutes for your
presentation.
2629
MR. BRACE: Thank
you.
INTERVENTION
2630
MR. BRACE: Good afternoon,
Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission. My name is Rick Brace and I am the
President of CTV.
2631
Before we start our presentation, I would like to take a moment to
introduce the members of our panel here today.
2632
On my immediate right is David Goldstein, Vice‑President, Government and
Regulatory Affairs for CHUM Limited.
2633
On my immediate left is Robert Hurst, President, CTV News; and to his
left is Peter Kent, Deputy Editor, Global TV News.
2634
Behind me are from my left, John Medline, Director of Regulatory Affairs
for CanWest Media Works Inc.; Dickie Overdeek, CTV's Director of Regulatory
Affairs and Policy Strategy; and Rob Malcolmson of Goodmans, our Legal
Counsel.
2635
Our appearance before you today represents a first. Canada's largest private broadcasters
have joined together to present a unified front in opposition to the
applications by Pelmorex, CBC and ExpressVu, applications that seek access to
our signals and to our programming without our
consent.
2636
Today we appear before you not as competitors but as broadcasters with
the common objective of continuing to perform a public service in times of
crisis while protecting the integrity of our signals and maintaining our
editorial independence.
2637
At the outset, let us say that we absolutely do support a voluntary
system that would provide early warnings of emergency situation to broadcasters
and improved emergency preparedness.
2638
We oppose these applications for five reasons.
2639
First, as television broadcasters, we have always provided a vital public
service in times of emergency, before, during and after the event. This is our covenant to our viewers and
it is one that we take very seriously.
A compulsory system that forces broadcasters to cede control of their
signals to a third party breaches that covenant and erodes our
mandate.
2640
Second, we already work together with the relevant authorities when
emergencies arise and we voluntarily participate in public sector alerting
initiatives, as we did in the case of the Alberta Emergency Public Warning
System and Ambert alert systems.
2641
Third, we do not see the value in a mandatory and in some cases
for‑profit system that allows third parties to interrupt broadcaster signals to
distribute generalized emergency alerts without the broadcaster's consent. Not only would that compromise our
programming, it would also undermine our editorial independence and journalistic
integrity, principles that are fundamental to the Canadian broadcasting
system.
2642
Fourth, we do not see the value of a mandatory system that forces
consumers to pay for a service which they already receive from local
broadcasters and specialty news services.
Any public alerting system should provide a truly public service to
consumers, absolutely free of charge.
2643
Fifth, it is clear that these applications are entirely premature. To date, the process has been driven by
technology with no real regard to editorial content or
control.
2644
Robert.
2645
MR. HURST: Thank you,
Rick.
2646
These applications are contrary to the fundamentals of editorial
independence and journalistic integrity.
If approved, authorized users could override a broadcaster's signal
without that broadcaster's consent and with no consideration to what is actually
on the air, which in cases of emergency will already be live and on the
scene.
2647
There is a reason why article 5 of the Radio‑Television News Directors
Association Code of Ethics states that:
"Intrusion into
content should be resisted."
(As
read)
2648
There is a reason why the Broadcasting Act makes a point of stating
that:
"It shall be
applied in a manner that is consistent with the freedom of expression and
journalistic, creative and programming independence enjoyed by broadcasting
undertakings."
(As
read)
2649
And there is a reason why the Act makes broadcasters responsible for
their programming.
2650
And there is a reason why section 7 of the Regulations protects a
broadcaster's signal from being altered or deleted without broadcaster
consent.
2651
The reason underlying all of these statements is the same: to protect broadcasters from
interference and to maintain editorial
independence.
2652
Alberta's voluntary Emergency Warning System provides a good example of
how a well‑intentioned initiative is still in need of
improvement.
2653
In 2003, there were 447 authorized users for Alberta's Emergency Warning
System alone. Today, this number
has grown to over 1,000. Multiply
that across Canada and we are looking at thousands of users with the authority
to deliver unfiltered messages to viewers.
2654
Last year, the Alberta system issued nine alerts within four days to warn
the public about heavy flooding. In
some instances, these alerts, which were already outdated by the time they were
broadcast, covered up the local 6:00 p.m. newscasts in Calgary which were
already reporting the same story live and on location.
2655
Following this incident, Alberta revised the criteria for issuing
alerts. The new criteria require
that flood alerts be issued only where a situation is life‑threatening, imminent
and where they are not interrupting radio and television information of equal or
greater value.
2656
In other words, the Alberta system recognizes the vital role that
broadcasters play in emergency reporting.
The applications before you do not.
2657
MR. KENT: Editorial
independence and journalistic integrity aren't just lofty statements of
principle. News reporters and
editors are acutely aware of the importance of information that is both timely
and accurate.
2658
If blanket alert information is out of date, it can be confusing, even
dangerous, especially if it overrides actual live on‑the‑site coverage of the
event. Such situations actively
compromise the ability of journalists to do their jobs and work against, not
for, public safety.
2659
In times of crisis, people need the reassurance of a human presence, a
human dimension, not just an impersonal alphanumeric
screen.
2660
When torrential thunderstorms and flooding hit Toronto last August,
municipal officials were slow to respond.
Nonetheless, Global's meteorologist provided updated advisories into
programming live from our Don Mills studios while camera crews and reporters
provided live coverage from severely flooded areas in the lower valley along the
Don River.
2661
That coverage contributed to emergency services awareness of the
developing situation and assisted in the rescue of homeless people stranded by
rising water.
2662
That same month, Environment Canada issued a rare tornado warning for
Toronto. Because the storm was
fast‑moving, it would have been impossible to use relayed text crawls. They would have been dated by the time
they hit the air. We went
live.
2663
In August 2003 when forest fires consumed part of Kelowna, B.C., Global's
CHBC provided round‑the‑clock marathon coverage, delivering emergency services
messages, both specific and general, from Fire Department Headquarters and live
reports from various locations around the valley.
2664
Our station was widely recognized for the immediacy and accuracy of
evacuation alerts during the worst of the firestorms and for providing updates
to evacuees on the state of their property and in some cases their pets and for
relaying all‑clear and return information when the danger
passed.
2665
David.
2666
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Thank you,
Peter.
2667
These are just a few examples of the types of local coverage that are at
risk of being overridden by a blanket automated All Channel Alert
system.
2668
There are also many serious questions that remain unanswered by these
applications.
2669
1. What is the status of
CANALERT and how will it roll out?
2670
2. What happens if the
information inserted into the broadcast signal is wrong, omits critical
information, sets off panic, or, in the worst possible situation, ends up
causing lives to be lost instead of lives saved? Who is
responsible?
2671
3. Are the service providers
or the government prepared to indemnify broadcasters from liability that may be
caused by the alert messages?
2672
4. Who exactly would be the
authorized agencies and the persons within those agencies? How will emergency messages be
prioritized when there are competing demands on the system and, in essence, who
gets to pull the trigger?
2673
The applicants haven't addressed these issues and these fundamental
questions. We are concerned that to
date this process has been driven by technology with no regard to editorial
control, discretion or judgment.
2674
Rick.
2675
MR. BRACE: To conclude, CTV,
CanWest and CHUM strongly oppose the Commission sanctioning a mandatory
for‑profit framework that allows any third party to insert an emergency message
into a broadcaster's signal without the broadcaster's
consent.
2676
We believe the best solution is to build on the existing systems local
broadcasters have in place to alert and advise their
viewers.
2677
You have our commitment to take a leadership role in the development and
the implementation of a voluntary system that allows broadcasters to maintain
their editorial independence and journalistic integrity.
2678
You also have our commitment to continue to make our news coverage of
emergencies available across our specialty networks and radio properties where
circumstances warrant, as we did in September of 2001.
2679
We take our responsibility to public safety seriously and we will
continue to make ongoing improvements.
2680
We do not believe that Canadians should have to pay for services that are
already provided by local broadcasters and specialty news services nor should
broadcasters be expected to pay for the implementation of a mandatory
third‑party for‑profit system over which they have absolutely no
control.
2681
Each of CTV, CanWest and CHUM are committed to improving emergency
awareness and to developing and implementing an effective public alerting system
but we need to be an integral part of the solution, not having it dictated to us
through a mandatory system that leaves no room for editorial discretion and that
is being developed through a process that has not been sufficiently
consultative.
2682
For these reasons, we would ask that the applications before you be
denied.
2683
We appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today and are happy to
answer any questions that you may have.
2684
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Brace. Thank you,
gentlemen. I will have Commissioner
Pennefather start with the questions.
2685
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
2686
Good afternoon. Thank you
for your intervention and I have also your written comments here. I wanted to pursue basically two lines
of questioning, if you will, but we might wander into other
areas.
2687
Clearly, one is that you have said, and I believe you say it a little
less but I am sure you still maintain your position, united as it is, that you
are committed to participate in an emergency alert service developed by the
Government of Canada in consultation with broadcasters and BDUs, et cetera. I assume that is still your
position?
2688
MR. BRACE:
Absolutely.
2689
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So
when we look at this, as you said, Mr. Goldstein, the blanket automated All
Channel Alert system, that is the same thing that we are talking about, an
emergency alert system Canada‑wide?
So without putting the adjectives, that is what we are talking
about?
2690
MR. GOLDSTEIN: That is
correct.
2691
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Let us look at that then and assume that such a system is important and
we will discuss a couple of points.
Then we will discuss your role and what you do currently and how you see
that evolving either on its own or in coordination with such a national alert
system.
2692
So those are the two lines, equal in importance, and we will try to see
if we can flesh a few things out.
2693
One of the most important issues for you, and which is developed at great
length, and we have a panel that can probably give us some very good comments on
editorial, journalistic Code of Ethics and concerns.
2694
I think we are very clear on what your concerns are. I think they are related not so much to
the mandatory but to the change to the Regulations which would allow the
insertion of a message without agreement; is that correct?
2695
MR. BRACE: I would say that
the mandatory issuance is an issue for us as well.
2696
But really, I think you are absolutely correct, it is really the ability
for someone to insert information over our signal, and information that: number one, we haven't consented to;
number two, that we really haven't had an opportunity to either review or
perhaps adjust in some manner or form that might be more up to date and react to
in any way, that just kind of gets passed through and goes onto the air without
any kind of supervision from our editorial areas. That is really the
concern.
2697
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Let us assume that because you are interested in participating in a
national alert system that one of the advantages or one of the, let us say,
underlying necessities of such a system is the timeliness and the speed with
which that alert ‑‑ and let us be clear, for purposes of discussion, a
warning of imminent threat to life ‑‑ and that that would aid in a
considerable manner what you also would be doing.
2698
If you consider that ‑‑ I am assuming you do ‑‑ as fundamental
to a national alert system, do you have any sense that the fact that such a
national alert system would be developed based on guidelines and protocols
similar, for the sake of discussion, to the guidelines and protocols developed
to date by CANALERT that such guidelines and protocols would not define the
alert in such a specific manner that your concerns would be allayed to some
extent?
2699
MR. BRACE: I think ‑‑
on the contrary, I think that we would like to take a proactive role, which we
haven't had the opportunity to do to this point in time, the consultation
process in developing the protocol.
2700
I am still referring to a voluntary system, however. Let me be clear on
that.
2701
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Okay.
2702
MR. BRACE: But having said
that, what we would be interested in doing is taking an active role in working
with CANALERT or any other agencies that may be involved and we have heard many
different variations over the last day and a half as to where these alerts may
come from and the number of users and so on and so forth.
2703
But I think that what we want to do is play a role in that, a responsible
role that we believe we can bring to the table with the expertise as
broadcasters that can help develop the protocol, the way messages would be
delivered, the format they would be delivered and the actual content that they
would be delivered. I think that
that is where we would like to start.
2704
Then I think the next step is how they get delivered to us and what
happens from that point going forward.
2705
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: We
could stay on that latter piece of the puzzle then. Let us assume that the consultation
process starts right now.
2706
Let me put to you that if we are being very specific on the Regulation
point 7(d) and in the best interests of a national alert system being in place,
would you not be prepared perhaps to look at the possibility that your agreement
to alter the programming in these very specifically designed circumstances,
protocols, guidelines discussed to your satisfaction ‑‑ would there not be
a way to:
2707
(a) accept a wording, if you have one to suggest, for 7(d) which you
would be comfortable with ‑‑ considering that you will be part of
discussions, you must have considered such a possibility;
and
2708
(b) other than changing the wording, is there a way to sit down and
formulate a pre‑agreement, if you will, that in certain circumstances such an
alteration would be correct, thereby limiting and specifying and giving us very
specific language that would allow for the insertion of a message so carefully
defined through protocols and guidelines?
2709
Would that help?
2710
MR. BRACE: Potentially it
could but without the framework established out of the gate ‑‑ and it goes
to the prematurity issue that we have with the applicants and with the
discussion that we have heard over the last two days ‑‑ it would be
difficult for us to kind of notionally agree to that. I think that we need to understand much
more of the specifics.
2711
The timeliness was a good point, an excellent point, Commissioner
Pennefather, and I am going to have Robert and Peter maybe talk to this a little
bit.
2712
The system that for us would be ideal would be a voluntary system whereby
after a protocol had been developed, a set of guidelines had been issued and we
all had agreed to them that the information could be delivered to the
broadcaster and the broadcaster could then deal with it. And there is a lot of complexity in
that. I understand
that.
2713
But in terms of timeliness, at this point I would like to turn to Robert
to talk about what is the difference in timing that it would take to get a
message to the consumer and to the necessary audience by doing it this way as
opposed to the ways that have been proposed over the last day or
so.
2714
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Could I just ‑‑ excuse me for interrupting, Mr. Hurst, but certainly
that is a very important line of our questioning and that basically is to
satisfy the record that we understand what you do currently and how you are
developing across the united front of the broadcasters in this
area.
2715
But just to remain on the question of the insertion on programming for
the moment. We have talked about
the possibility of a discussion on either an amendment to the Regulations which
would suit your concerns ‑‑ and you may want to get back to us on
that ‑‑ and (b) perhaps other
pre‑agreements.
2716
That is just my term. It is
not any term we have thought through legally but it is just an idea to say that
your agreement is already given ahead of time.
2717
MR. BRACE: I like the latter
comment better, the pre‑agreement.
I mean if there was a pre‑agreement that we could come to after due
diligence and having the consultative process take place that we could all say,
all right, that in certain situations this may be what we are in agreement to
do, that to us is a pretty good definition of consent and if that were the
process it seems to me that altering article 7 would not be
necessary.
2718
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
That being said, let me delve then with perhaps Mr. Hurst and Mr.
Kent a little more on the concerns for altering the programming in this
particular case.
2719
It appeared to me ‑‑ and I can take the general principle and we can
all understand that and it is in the Act.
But in this particular case, we have a balancing act perhaps of the
national interest and when we are being very serious about not misuse but
correct use of such a system.
2720
I had the impression reading your intervention that you were concerned
that these messages were coming from government, that that was part of your
concern for editorial control, editorial codes of ethics and so
on.
2721
Can you elaborate a little bit on assuming agreements were made, assuming
everything went ‑‑ bottom line, the insertion of such an alert would more
than likely come from certain government bodies judging from the discussions we
have been having, be they provincial, local or federal?
2722
MR. HURST: Commissioner, you
used a phrase which we think is very important, "correct
use."
2723
Yesterday, we heard which was a lot of engineering and technical can you
do, can you not do.
2724
I think from a news perspective ‑‑ and we have been the ones running
this last mile. I think the
industry talks about the last mile of delivering emergency messages. We have been the ones running that last
mile for the last 30‑40 years, and in that last mile there are a whole bunch of
checks and balances, the primary one being
accuracy.
2725
In the last year or so, with several alerts, we have had difficulties
with accuracy from emergency authorities that have been issuing alerts that we
caught, that we filtered. So in
terms of what might conditions be, accuracy and the ability to control and check
and check for accuracy is fundamental.
2726
The larger principle being, and this comes back to your phrase "correct
use," and it really is what are the guardian facts about protecting public
confidence in the system.
2727
We have had four Amber alerts in the Toronto area, in southern Ontario in
the last two or three weeks. Last
June in Alberta we had 16 or 17 flood warnings. Those flood warnings, one of which
included a sewage backup in a street in Lethbridge which went over the public
airwaves, I would argue and I think our news people would argue that that kind
of warning denigrates public confidence in the system.
2728
We think we would like to really engage as those who have been running
the last mile, engage the public alerting officials about our experience about
public panic, accuracy, follow‑up.
If you do a warning, then what do you do?
2729
So there are conditions but it comes down to accuracy and overall I would
say reinforcing and protecting public confidence in an emergency alerting
system.
2730
Peter.
2731
MR. KENT: Commissioner, if I
could just jump in.
2732
In speaking to what we consider to be the premature nature of this
licensing procedure in the absence of a consultative process either with
Industry Canada, with CANALERT or with the applicants before you this week,
there has been a lot of talk in the past couple of days, vague references to who
pulls the trigger.
2733
It is not so much our concern that it is a legitimate government agency,
a commissioner of public safety, a police chief or a fire chief but as we have
seen in Alberta with their gradually evolving Emergency Warning System, there
are now close to 1,000 individuals authorized to launch an alert, to pull the
trigger, and at the same time realizing that this trigger could be pulled with
content which, in our experience in Alberta particularly, has proven to be out
of date and misleading.
2734
We have got to realize and we have to remind ourselves that there is no
single silver bullet coming out of the guns of any of your applicants here this
week. This is a multidimensional
solution.
2735
We have heard talk of sirens, we have heard talk of cellular and digital
text alerts and I think we can't possibly discount the importance of radio in
all of this. I think radio is going
to have to be a leading partner in any mandatory CANALERT system if that is what
we are to eventually inherit.
2736
MR. BRACE: I think just
in ‑‑
2737
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Well, I ‑‑ I am sorry, go ahead.
2738
MR. BRACE: Just in closing
the loop on that, we actually do believe it is a government process. That is the way we would intend to
go.
2739
To answer your specific question, we have not yet to this point in time
designed language to alter article 7.
2740
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Well, I think, in fairness, what the applicants have presented to us and
certainly what interveners have talked about is a system which is designed to
avoid the errors, to try to set things, going forward, in a framework of very
clear guidelines and protocols.
2741
We are certainly hearing from interveners to the effect that at that
level a mandatory system is what is required out there in the communities across
the country.
2742
Backing up from there, what would be very helpful too is to get your
experience. So I am going to go
down the other line of questioning and talk a little bit more about how you
currently handle urgent time‑sensitive alerts and particularly what do you do in
smaller markets because part of the thesis here is that Canadians and everyone
concerned here in the Commission should look carefully at the current system,
that the broadcasters are, and I quote you:
"the primary
purveyors of emergency messages, the primary alert system in Canada." (As read)
2743
So we should know more about what you do and how you do it and
particularly in smaller markets where one would assume you have not got a 24/7
newsroom in operation, transmitters are often fed from distant markets for part
of the broadcast day. How does that
provide us with assurance and consistency?
2744
MR. KENT: Well, your
question provides an excellent opportunity to correct the
record.
2745
Yesterday, Pelmorex inaccurately suggested that broadcasters were
inexperienced in terms of delivering emergency
alerts.
2746
In truth, we do it regularly and have for half a century in the case of
the major networks, since the dawn of television in Canada, and not only with
weather alerts.
2747
We do it with any number of public safety alerts, individuals with guns,
school lockdowns.
2748
We do it with natural disasters in terms of the Kelowna forest fires and
the southern Alberta floods. Small
communities ‑‑ our Lethbridge broadcaster was involved
there.
2749
Most important of all, and the Ontario Public Safety Commissioner spoke
to this today, his delight with the way private broadcasters have engaged and
execute for him, for the province the Amber Alert Program, which is a relayed
urgent message to private broadcasters which we then reconfigure and present in
a uniform fashion on each of our broadcast outlets and we are enjoying ‑‑
there are still some snags to be worked out of the system but it is working very
well.
2750
In our smaller markets as well, the news directors in those smaller
markets are generally joined at the hip with both civic officials and emergency
officials in those markets, and to our knowledge, and with the exception of some
spontaneous microburst weather situations which are not always deliverable in a
timely ‑‑ in as timely a fashion as we would all like, we aren't aware of
any glaring examples or outstanding complaints.
2751
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: To
get ‑‑ I'm sorry, go ahead.
2752
MR. HURST: May I just
talk from CTV perspective about small markets and by way, Commissioner, perhaps
of giving you some examples.
2753
Most small markets in Canada are under the news gathering and news
reporting of our stations all across the country.
2754
So let me give you three water examples. Walkerton was a prime example. No prior emergency alert would have
prevented the deaths because the municipal authorities and the city council and
the public water works and the provincial ministry in fact were trying to hide
what was going on there.
2755
As soon as the public health official advised a boil water advisory we
were all there and we were there for weeks. That's a small community up on
the ‑‑ heading to the Grey Peninsula.
2756
Second one was Kaschewan, the native community, where ‑‑ it's a long
way away and I think all broadcasters did an exemplary job alerting that
community and the larger community about that water
crisis.
2757
A third one might be Wabamun Lake, between Edmonton and Jasper on the
Yellowhead Highway, last August when a CN freight train dumped 700,000 litres
bunker sea into the lake. We were
there within hours. CN and local
officials did not declare that this was an emergency for four
days.
2758
We can always do better. To
the specifics of your question, how often are we staffed. Our news system is staffed 24 hours a
day, seven days a week, 365 days a year and we are set up if there are alerts in
places where we are not staffed at two o'clock on a Sunday morning, a smaller
station, which we are not, we know how to get a hold of those people to alert
them that there is a major crisis in their community.
2759
MR. BRACE: And just in
interest of balance we better let CHUM have a say.
2760
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Oh, absolutely. I'd make
sure you did.
2761
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Well, I
mean, the Commission knows that we have had a great deal of experience in small
markets and it's always a balancing act, of course, and everybody would love to
have all the resources at their disposal and they don't, but I think we have to
pull back and take a look at a bigger philosophical issue of is local coverage
better than coverage that's coming from a national source or a central
provincial source and the interference of that upon which local news people
gathering news, assessment of the situation, are actually there on the ground
and able to watch that.
2762
We operate one of the smallest I think ‑‑ Wingham, Ontario, is one
of the smallest licences, conventional television licences, in the country and
do we have a 24 hours news bureau there?
No. Do we have a central hub
out of London that has ‑‑ do we have people that are covering Wingham? Yes. Do we have a mechanism by which we can
alert the folks in Wingham as to weather conditions and other conditions, yes,
and we went through that when went the blackout, which, you know, has been well
talked about today.
2763
We also are in the position wherein most of our communities we have radio
stations as well, and, you know, it's an interesting thing that ‑‑ there
has been very little talk about radio's contribution to emergency preparedness
and we can spend a whole amount of time on that and we may just do that in a
couple of weeks.
2764
But taking one step back, we're going to have a larger discussion,
Commissioner, about the role of local television with the Commission in probably
a few months.
2765
This is a cornerstone of what we do. Any erosion, to Rick's earlier point,
about our credibility with the marketplace, especially when we know that from
time to time these issues ‑‑ these centralized issues are in fact wrong,
makes us culpable for the situation and that becomes a bigger problem for us
than a timing issue on when information can get out, because if the wrong
information is getting out on a very timely basis it's still wrong
information.
2766
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Let's just go on that, just for a moment.
2767
First of all, I'm struck by the fact that you seem to be assuming that
one system would replace the other.
In discussions with interveners ‑‑ and I take the point that what
we're talking about here also should be of benefit to the public ‑‑ that
there is room in this country and a need for a national warning system and for
obviously the continuing support of local media in terms of ongoing information
and I think I discussed this very point with the gentleman from the Salvation
Army this morning. So I don't think
it's talking about replacement.
2768
Secondly, you seem to be assuming that the national alert system ‑‑
correct me if I'm wrong ‑‑ is one which will increase errors in the
system. It would appear to me that
the discussion is around avoiding such errors in the system through a national
system set up under guidelines developed, let's say for the sake of argument,
through CANALERT.
2769
MR. GOLDSTEIN: To
Mr. Brace's point and my other colleagues, we're all looking for more tools
to put in the toolbox and a system by which we can get more timely information
that we can pass on to our viewers and listeners is always of
help.
2770
The question becomes do we confuse viewers and listeners when information
that is coming from elsewhere is put on top of our signals without consent when
we may in fact be covering the situation from a much closer vantage
point.
2771
MR. BRACE: I think the
point you make, Commissioner Pennefather, is really strong, but when the system
is in place ‑‑ that's our concern, is that we don't know what that system
is, we don't know what government bodies or we don't know who the trigger
pullers will be, who the authorized users will
be.
2772
And it kind of seems strange to us, it's confusing, that we're here today
because of an application that caused a call for applications on and all channel
alert without first having that system kind of defined, at least even broadly
defined, without a consultative process, that included the broadcasters, and we
seem to be put in a position here of kind of defending our position against the
ability for a third party to intrude on our signal, when, you know, in point of
fact, had it been a situation where a system had been broadly
established ‑‑ you know, never mind narrowly defined ‑‑ and was then
brought to the table, so that we understood what we were being asked to agree to
or asked to ‑‑ asked to acknowledge, it would be a bit of a different
story.
2773
But, you know, there has been no consultation process. We don't know what we're getting
into.
2774
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Well, let's take that point.
I think there is evidence on the record that the consultation has
occurred. Whether it's to your
satisfaction or not we'll leave it to the record to decide, but I think what is
important right now, if you agree, is that taking advantage of your knowledge of
what currently is underway in some of the
issues.
2775
For example, leaving aside the national alert system concept, to enhance
your ability to service the communities on a more consistent basis, has there
been discussion across ‑‑ amongst broadcasters ‑‑ you're concerned
about a national alert system interfering with your programming, I don't mean in
a legal sense, but confusion. What
about the confusion of different networks carrying the same warning, the same
concerns, in different ways across the networks?
2776
Have you talked about co‑ordinating amongst yourselves? Have you looked at the costs of
upgrading your networks to provide better, safer, more consistent emergency
alerts?
2777
MR. BRACE: I would say
to this point in time it has been a very individual concept, that CTV has looked
after its own affairs and similarly with CanWest.
2778
We do actually cooperate in many instances and Peter can maybe elaborate
on some of that.
2779
MR. KENT: If I can
speak again to the Ontario implementation of the Amber Alert, there are very
sharply defined protocols in place in terms of how Amber Alerts are declared,
who is allowed to declare them, the messages communicated to news organizations,
to broadcasters, and put up onto highway signs and onto radio stations, but
within the terms of those very closely‑defined conditions we must present them
in a uniform way.
2780
We are not limited, we don't do it with one single alert. In most cases it's a continuing
alert. We refer back to the
authority organization and we prefer, and as we heard from the Commissioner of
Public Safety in Ontario this morning, he is delighted with the success of that
program and the success in these early days. We have been doing Amber Alerts for
barely a year now in Ontario, but he thinks that system works and we do
too.
2781
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Mr. Goldstein, in your presentation on behalf of your colleagues,
you were given the task of listing a number of questions on page 8. I believe they're the same questions in
the written intervention.
2782
Any answers? Do you have
any ‑‑ would you care to comment on some of these
points?
2783
MR. GOLDSTEIN: First of
all, I hate to be put in this position, but I actually disagree with the public
record on the consultative process.
2784
I can tell you on CHUM's behalf there was one meeting with our CEO about
three years ago and any other consultation that has happened through the
Industry Canada process has been with our local radio engineer, so just to
correct that piece of the public record, I don't think it's been very
consultative with broadcasters.
2785
So we don't have a very good sense of what the status is with CANALERT
and I don't think ‑‑ I think my colleagues will agree with me that our
piece of the puzzle has not been incorporated in that.
2786
Secondly, there is ‑‑ there are liability issues and, Commissioner,
I think you dealt with some them earlier.
Commissioner del Val dealt with some of them
earlier.
2787
We are responsible for what is on screen, the Act is very clear, and as
somebody whose day job it is to deal with CBSE complaints and others, we have to
be very careful about the trust that we develop with the community, so that the
messaging that they're getting ‑‑ they don't the difference between whether
it's going to be a national service or whether it's your local broadcaster
giving you that sort of news and that goes to the covenant that Mr. Brace
spoke of earlier.
2788
There are legal issues and, again, all of this goes to control and
consent.
2789
So I guess I have questions because I don't have the answers to them at
this point in time.
2790
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: On
the latter question ‑‑ I'll get back to liability in just a moment or
perhaps my colleagues will ‑‑ but on the last question you're dealing in
the day to day as broadcasters with emergencies and making judgment
calls.
2791
You mentioned the situation that ‑‑ your concerns in Alberta. What exactly ‑‑ who would be the
authorized agencies and the persons within those agencies?
2792
In looking at the national alert proposals, all of them, CANALERT
guidelines come into the picture and there are some definitions there. Do you have any comment on those and
currently how do you deal with this situation of recognizing an authorized
agency?
2793
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I'm just
going to start, because there are people at this table with much more editorial
experience than I have, but I just ‑‑ Commissioner Fantino said something
very interesting today, which is every emergency begins as a local
event.
2794
We have experience in the local communities that we represent, either
with TV or radio, with direct relationships with the police force, the emergency
services, and that's in fact our first line of engagement and it's something
that we work on very closely, and I'm sure my colleagues do with their local
stations as well, and we have an internal protocol of how we're going to deal
with those issues and those relationships that exist.
2795
So when something happens in Ottawa, for example, or in Pembroke, we
understand what has to go into motion to make sure that the community is being
served.
2796
It's not that we're not interested in other information, but the question
is how are our viewers and listeners being served if in fact there could be
mixed messages being sent between what's coming from the national service or in
this case a provincial service and what's coming from our local news
gatherers.
2797
And then I'll let perhaps my other colleagues can
add.
2798
MR. HURST: We work with
emergency officials in every local community, fire, police, and I'm sad to
report that mistakes in emergency alerts today, from those emergency officials,
which would presumably be rolled into this national service ‑‑ mistakes are
widespread.
2799
We work with these police departments and fire departments and emergency
officials on a daily basis.
2800
Let me give you two examples.
The Alberta situation that we talked about last June, the broadcasters,
it was their initiative and they went back to the Alberta Emergency Alerting
System and said, "You guys are crying wolf. You're out of control here. You're denigrating the system." Because we work together in Alberta,
those faults and problems were tightened up. It was our initiative that did
it.
2801
Three weeks ago there was an Amber Alert in Southern Ontario, Wellington
County, a child missing. It was
issued by the OPP, which is a pretty good authority in police
services.
2802
The child was found 90 minutes later. How do we know that at CTV news? Because we did due diligence with the
police department to find where they were on this case. The initial warning was very vague. Where are we supposed to look? Where are you asking us to ask the
public to look? And it was very
vague.
2803
The child was found 90 minutes later, but the Amber Alert incorrectly
went on alerting people in Southern Ontario for the next four
hours.
2804
The next day in our discussions with the OPP as cooperative together,
they admitted that they broke their rules and regulations and they needed to
work better with us.
2805
We have had no discussion with CANALERT in a national level about
this.
2806
In the hallway during our lunch break I had a nice chat with the
gentleman from Emergency Measures New Brunswick. We need to have more of those
discussions. We are only as good as
the information that is provided to us and for us to get emergency critical
information out to save lives ‑‑ not property ‑‑ to save lives that's
our job one, but it's not a perfect system by a long shot and I don't read
anything in the CANALERT guidelines that would give you those daily checks,
those hourly, minute‑by‑minute checks of fuzzy or unclear
information.
2807
MR. KENT: Just to
underline that, Commissioner, we believe that there has been far too much focus
on the engineering challenges and far too little on the content generation and
relaying.
2808
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Well, just on that point, let me go back to the concept of a national
alert system going forward and I believe you said very clearly that you felt
that should it go forward in addition to what broadcasters do that it should be
voluntary on the part of broadcasters.
2809
Question: You have heard
from the interveners, there seems to be dissatisfaction, there is perhaps
several who have said it should be mandatory because the decision of whether to
deliver emergency alerts, warnings to the public should not be in the
hands ‑‑ and I don't say this with any disrespect for the work you do or
neither does anyone else ‑‑ just at that level it should not be in the
hands of broadcasters, but rather be mandatory.
2810
Any further comment on that point?
2811
MR. BRACE: I think
based on a consultative process where we could come up with a format that
satisfied us in which we had significant input, offered our expertise and
obviously listened to the people and the needs that these various agencies would
put forward.
2812
I think that would then lead us to a framework that would be workable for
us, in a voluntary context. I
maintain that.
2813
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: In
a voluntary context.
2814
MR. BRACE: In a
voluntary context.
2815
MR. KENT:
Absolutely. And in the case
of Alberta, where we have experienced some frustrations, we still are all
committed to the Alberta Emergency Warning System and we still are prepared to
execute the warnings that they issue.
2816
The discussions that we had after the glitches occurred last June has
resulted in, we believe, a more cautious approach in the way advisories are
issued and in the ways that we can supplement them and make sure that outdated
advisories aren't being overlaid over live coverage from an emergency scene of a
very different situation.
2817
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Okay. Thank you. Those are my questions. Thank you, I appreciate your comments
this afternoon.
2818
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
2819
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Commissioner Pennefather.
2820
Obviously you are all here today as individual broadcasters. At the level of CAB, are you having any
discussions regarding emergency alert or is it that it is a matter up to each
individual broadcaster?
2821
MR. BRACE: To this
point in time it really has ‑‑ other than the co‑operation that we have
with each other at certain times in sharing uplink trucks at disasters and even
sharing cameras and other technical gear ‑‑ it really has been a
broadcaster‑by‑broadcaster approach.
2822
I think what's driven the system, in all honesty, has been the
competitive nature that exists at this table.
2823
We're out every day to try and beat each other to a story. We're probably going to take separate
cabs after we leave the hearing today and go back to doing just that, beating
each up wherever we can, but that has really kind of driven, you know, the need
to get to the information first, to make sure that we're first at delivering it
and to make sure that we absolutely follow up and deliver the best and most
informative stories that we possibly can.
2824
At the CAB level, which was your specific question, to this point in time
it's not something that has really been on the agenda.
2825
MR. GOLDSTEIN: If I can
just add, to our understanding the majority of the discussions between the CAB
or ‑‑ and Industry Canada or CANALERT have to our knowledge been on an
engineering basis and not on a programming and content basis, to our
knowledge.
2826
And again, that ‑‑ you know, when we discuss this with our editorial
people this is what we ‑‑ this is the sense that we have of the discussions
at this point.
2827
MR. BRACE: I think
David straightened the record on behalf of CHUM and I can say that on behalf of
CTV, and I'm sure Peter can do likewise on behalf of Canada CanWest, but from a
senior level there has been no consultation whatsoever.
2828
THE CHAIRPERSON: Today is
almost a first.
2829
MR. BRACE: It's almost
a first. It's all been at a
technical level to decide how can we get the signal from here to here, what's
the best way of distributing it, but really has not emphasized anything on
content, on editorial correctness, on follow‑up, on who pulls the
trigger.
2830
I know that our CEO, because I asked him directly, has not been
consulted. I as president of the
company have not been consulted directly.
The people in the editorial areas have not been
consulted.
2831
And, Peter, I think you can say the same
for ‑‑
2832
MR. KENT:
Absolutely. The same exists
and Global and CanWest Media Works.
2833
And to speak ‑‑ it's been interesting for all of us to listen to the
discussions of liability and avoiding liability. Every day we address breaking news
situations and emergency alerts of different levels and the last thing on our
minds ‑‑ we're aware of our responsibilities and our accountability and our
liability, but the last thing on our minds is dodging that liability
issue.
2834
What we are concerned about is an intrusive third party which may, in
fact, bring complications to our lives and to the lives of our
viewers.
2835
MR. BRACE: And what
seems to be proposed here is a system that puts the liability at our feet. Because in all honesty, when a viewer
watches a program and if they're watching CanWest, CHUM or CTV and an alert were
to come on and for whatever reason that alert was inaccurate and caused panic
and caused people to leave their homes prematurely, only to have them looted,
whatever the case may be, who gets sued?
It's the station that's being watched. Where did I see it? I saw it on CanWest. I saw it on CHUM. I saw it on CTV. That's where they come
first.
2836
And what has been absolutely clear over the last two days is that no one
is willing to take responsibility for that ‑‑ no one is willing to
indemnify.
2837
And here we sit as kind of the people at the end of the chain that are
hanging out there in front of the public and we are at ones most at risk and
we're the ones that have been least discussed.
2838
MR. GOLDSTEIN: And if I
could just add, it all comes down to consent. That's our major
point.
2839
THE CHAIRPERSON: That being
said, and I ... there are other channels that each of your groups here have,
that are programmed with material that is not necessarily live, that is not
necessarily news‑driven. I'm
thinking mystery, I'm thinking ‑‑ well, TSN at least you have live
people. But I think maybe ‑‑
I'm trying to find out another one that you ‑‑ that is in your
foray.
2840
But what happens on those channel if there is an imminent need for a
warning?
2841
MR. BRACE: David wants
to follow up here, but I can tell you that from our point of view, and I can
give you an example, that when a story is of significant enough nature on TSN,
for example, we actually will redirect people to CTV news or CTV
Newsnet.
2842
That's kind of the ‑‑ that's ‑‑ I wouldn't say it's a formal
policy, to be quite honest, but it's just the editorial policy we kind of
follow. We use our judgment in
making that kind of a decision. And
David?
2843
MR. GOLDSTEIN: I just
want to go back to the example of the blackout and, yes ‑‑ and we
do ‑‑ we have done advisories on our specialty channels, but when stories
like that ‑‑ you know, all politics is local, all catastrophes are
local.
2844
We took two very different approaches based on very different markets and
I'll give ‑‑ use Ottawa and Toronto as an example.
2845
In Toronto we decided that all of our radio and television services were
going to go to the CP24 signal.
That was a reliable place for updated information and, in fact, it was
kind of fun to watch, because it was the only ‑‑ because it was obviously
running on generators, it was only the lit place in all ‑‑ in that section
of downtown Toronto and people came from all over downtown Toronto and they were
sitting outside as if Hilary Duff was in the Much Music studio, watching the
monitors on CP24 to find out what was going on.
2846
That was the same signal that they were getting if they were listening to
CHUM FM or to 1050 CHUM.
2847
In Ottawa, we ran to the CFRA feed, so our TV station and all of our
local radio stations went to the CFRA feed, because of the nature of the ‑‑
of the emergency.
2848
Each us will have a different way of dealing with those
circumstances.
2849
THE CHAIRPERSON: But what
you say here, seems to have applied to your over‑the‑air services. I'm talking your specialty
service.
2850
MR. GOLDSTEIN: And we
have and have no problem in including in ‑‑
2851
THE CHAIRPERSON: Because
take ‑‑
2852
MR. GOLDSTEIN: In
Ottawa, you ‑‑
2853
THE CHAIRPERSON: You just
used Ottawa as an example. If there
was to be ‑‑ what would you do on Brevel if it was limited to
Ottawa?
2854
MR. GOLDSTEIN: We
have ‑‑ first of all, we have the ability to do crawl for Ontario
signals. We have the ability to do
crawl and ‑‑
2855
THE CHAIRPERSON: But that
will be available across Canada.
2856
MR. GOLDSTEIN:
Certainly. And people will
know if the crawl relates to an Ontario incident, somebody who is watching in
Alberta will understand that that's ‑‑
2857
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Obviously. If you say it's
happened in Ottawa, it happens in Ottawa.
2858
MR. GOLDSTEIN:
Yes.
2859
THE CHAIRPERSON: Just for
the record, you said that the discussions were mainly technical. The discussions may have been technical,
but I have the list here of the people who have participated in various CANALERT
meeting and they are regulatory affair representative of the CHUM organization,
for example, but there were no representative of CTV or Global, I can see that
from the list, and there were also representative from the CAB, both from the
technical and the legal perspective.
2860
Mr. McCallum?
2861
MR. McCALLUM: Just on
the wording of the regulation, 7(d), as you know, says no changing except in
accordance with an agreement entered into with the operator of the service and I
just wondered if you'd put any thought to are there any circumstances where
consent or agreement could be deemed to occur?
2862
MR. BRACE: I think
without the value of the consultative process we're not at this point in time
prepared to go forward or make any suggestion, but I'm going to turn to our
legal counsel for further comment, if necessary.
2863
MR. MALCOLMSON: Thank
you, Rick. If you are going to go
down the path of amending 7(1)(d) to allow the signal to be interfered with in
times of emergency, I think at minimum you have to define "authorized users"
and, secondly, there has to be some allocation of liability by the authorized
user, because CTV or CHUM or Global is going to find itself in the situation of
having a legal responsibility under section 3(1)(h) of the Broadcasting Act of
being responsible for the content of a broadcast. That's a responsibility that exists by
statute.
2864
You amend 7(1)(d)to allow someone else to insert content into the signal
and potentially without providing for some sort of allocation of liability, you
have unlimited liability at the broadcaster level. So that needs to be dealt
with.
2865
It could be dealt with in the definitions of 7(1)(d) so that, for
example, a authorized user would be someone who has agreed to indemnify the
broadcaster for liability resulting from a false message.
2866
There are ways to deal with it, but the liability issue needs to be dealt
with.
2867
MR. McCALLUM:
Okay. And in terms of
authorized user, do you have any suggestions on that part of
it?
2868
MR. MALCOLMSON: I think
the CANALERT definition is a good start, but it's missing the liability
piece.
2869
MR. McCALLUM: Thank
you, Mr. Chair.
2870
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
very much, gentlemen, lady. Thank
you very much. Madame Secrétaire,
Mrs. Secretary.
2871
THE SECRETARY: Thank
you. I would now invite the
following interveners to come as a group at the front.
2872
They are Mr. Cal Gardner of the City of Sarnia; Mr. Alain
Normand of the City of Brampton and also for the Ontario Association of
Emergency Managers; the associate deputy fire chief Kevin Duffy for City of
Mississauga; Mr. Garry Morden of the Mississauga Fire and Emergency
Services.
2873
We can start with Mr. Normand for the City of Brampton followed by
his presentation for the Ontario Association of Emergency Managers. You'll have ten minutes for your
presentation, Mr. Normand.
2874
MR. NORMAND: Thank you,
Madame Secretary.
2875
Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee, because I have two
presentations what I would like to suggest is that I let my colleagues from
Mississauga and Sarnia go first and then come back and talk on a more broader
view on behalf of the Ontario Association of Emergency Managers, if you don't
mind.
INTERVENTION
2876
MR. DUFFY: Hello and
thank you to the Commissioners and all others present for allowing us the
opportunity to appear here today and discuss our point of view on the Pelmorex
proposal.
2877
My name is Kevin Duffy. For
the record, I'm the assistant deputy chief of the City of Mississauga Fire and
Emergency Services.
2878
I'm here at the behest of the fire chief, Garry Morden, who initially
contacted the CRTC on this matter.
And unfortunately, the mayor was unable to attend today and she may still
be ‑‑ had she been here I think she would still be outside with Chief
Fantino discussing the Province of Ontario and how it works with
municipalities.
2879
Most municipalities and emergency services in Canada are wrestling with
the challenge of how to effectively notify and update citizens in the event of
pending or ongoing emergency situations.
These emergencies may include the declaration of a local emergency by
appropriate officials or perhaps the emergency may span many jurisdictions
wherein emergencies are declared in some or all of these
jurisdictions.
2880
The emergency may also be a localized event that does not necessitate an
official declaration of emergency, but for which local information may be
immediately required by the public about the nature of the event and any
significant precautions they may take or which may already have been taken by
local agencies, such as road closures, evacuations and the
like.
2881
For example, in the last three years the City of Mississauga has had
three large‑scale chemical industrial events wherein there would have been a
great safety advantages if we had the ability to alert local citizens as
directly and precisely as possible.
2882
Now, regardless of the nature or scale of the emergency, the information
required in such cases must be timely, as numerous interveners pointed out; must
also be accurate; must be properly sourced and approved; and it must be quickly
and consistently disseminated.
2883
Members of the public may in many, if not most, cases be expected to be
passive recipients of this information, although many municipal emergency plans
now include an education component that over time will assist citizens in
learning where and how to actively seek information about an
emergency.
2884
We are here today because currently in Canada there is no nationally
accepted standard for providing emergency alert information to the
public.
2885
While an unpredictable collection of media outlets will follow an
emergency event, the ultimate message concerning the event is theirs, the timing
of information release is theirs, and each has a relatively limited audience
that may not even be the intended audience.
2886
Also, citizens are often faced with messages that may differ from one
jurisdiction to another, message delivery channels that may vary and primary
information sources that may differ, varying from politicians to emergency
services to local industry.
2887
In Mississauga, for example, it is almost impossible to have a media
message effectively heard by the public as the Toronto media focus on the
message from the City of Toronto, which may be completely
different.
2888
The problem impacted us heavily during the blackout of 2003 and also
during the SARS event earlier that year.
2889
In general, the current media shotgun approach to alerting the public to
an emergency situation increases the potential to confuse or mislead citizens,
it can miss many or most citizens all together and it is difficult to educate
the public about where to go for accurate information, where there is no
consistency across jurisdictions.
2890
Accordingly, the City of Mississauga supports the Pelmorex proposal as a
rapid, accurate and predictable method of emergency alert contact. This system will reach a very large
number of citizens and it is a system about which citizens could be readily
educated to actively seek information in the future. It is flexible as to geographic
jurisdiction and it utilizes existing technology that can be implemented today
without further forums for funding and without further committee processes that
may never deliver a alternate product.
2891
Most citizens are already familiar with weather notification messages and
could adopt easily to receiving information in this fashion on non‑weather
emergencies.
2892
Implementing the Pelmorex proposal would not preclude other systems or
proposals that could add to a recognized nationwide emergency contact system to
reach the maximum number of citizens.
However there should be no delay in dealing positively with this
proposal.
2893
The Pelmorex system is ready for deployment today and it will greatly
assist in meeting the immediate emergency notification challenges faced by
Canadian municipalities.
2894
Thank you very much.
INTERVENTION
2895
MR. GARDNER: Thank you
very much for this opportunity to address the Commission.
2896
My name is California Gardner.
I'm the emergency planner for the City of Sarnia. The City of Sarnia has been involved in
emergency planning with the Chemical Valley Emergency Co‑ordinating Organization
for well over 50 years.
2897
The City of Sarnia through its police services has provided emergency
public alerting to the citizens of Sarnia and the surrounding communities since
the 1980s with great success.
2898
Our community profile, we compromise ‑‑ the region is 127,000. It's a small area. The city counts for 72,000 of that total
population.
2899
Bill 148, the Emergency Management Act makes it mandatory that every
community in Ontario formulates an emergency plan and that every community
appoints a community emergency management coordinator, the
CMC.
2900
The first part of any good plan is how to warn the public; however, it is
the portion of the plan that is most often deficient.
2901
The City of Sarnia under City by‑law 150 of 2004 established its
emergency plan. Under that by‑law
we've also ... have authority who is responsible for notifying the public is
addressed in our emergency plan, so it's covered under our municipal by‑law,
which the Emergency Management Act allows us to do.
2902
The head of council is the only individual at the local municipal level
that can declare an emergency. This
decision is as a result of advice from the primary control group, which is made
up of police, fire, health units, so forth.
2903
There are two international bridges that provide the second largest truck
crossing in Ontario with the largest volume of dangerous goods. In 2005 this was approximately 1,800,000
trucks.
2904
There are 20 major pipelines crossing from the Canadian side to the U.S.
side. These pipelines range from 6
to 42 inches in diameter. It is
estimated that it would take equivalent to 12 bridges to handle truck traffic to
handle this volume.
2905
The new international rail tunnel was completed in 1995, which now
accommodates all double stack containers, multilevel
carriers.
2906
The local CN yard is the largest to handle dangerous goods in the Great
Lakes Region and the second‑largest international rail yard in
Canada.
2907
Sarnia and the surrounding area have 30 major chemical plants. These industries pipelines
transportation corridors account up to 40 percent of the chemicals in Canada, 80
percent of the chemicals in Ontario.
2908
Emergency public alerting in Sarnia and the surrounding area is essential
to our community, based on the makeup of our local industry, transportation
network and the fact that we are identified by Environment Canada as being
located in Tornado Alley.
2909
As you can see, public alerting is important to
Sarnia.
2910
Currently our emergency notification system includes TV interruption of
most local Cogeco cable TV channels directly from our emergency operation
centre; radio interruptions of all three local radio stations directly from the
Sarnia OC; municipal emergency sirens with PA systems in risk
areas.
2911
We're probable the only city in Canada that has all three of those
capabilities.
2912
We tested with Industry Canada an telephone, e‑mail, pager, cell phone,
emergency notification system with Bell Canada as well.
2913
More common yet less effective forms of emergency communications to the
community involve door‑to‑door notification, loud mobile PA address systems and
community websites.
2914
All communities need emergency notification systems. Most of the emergencies we've heard
today occur at the local level. We
agree with that.
2915
Most communities could experience one or more of the following: Tornadoes, forest fires, flooding,
chemical emergencies, nuclear, contaminated water lines, power outages, et
cetera.
2916
Again, the first part of any good plan is how to warn the public.
Communications.
2917
There is no one system that will alert all the people all the time. But a combination of affordable systems
at the local level, provincial level and at the federal level will meet all of
our needs.
2918
We support the Pelmorex initiative because:
2919
Affordable for all communities across Canada, not just communities like
Sarnia, which are financially supported by industries and local
media.
2920
Available on all cable channels and satellite carriers, not limited to
just a few local cable channels.
2921
It is already tried, tested and workable for all of Canada. Turn on your TV right now and you'll see
The Weather Network. You'll see
your local information.
2922
Already has encrypted and secured internet communications systems between
the Pelmorex network and those who have the authority to activate the system for
the community, the province or the feds.
2923
Less intrusive to television viewers with a crawler which also provides
information to the hearing‑impaired viewer than what is currently being
used.
2924
Offering a standard form of public alerting that can be recognized across
Canada as a standard. When you move
from London to Sarnia, same standard information. We don't have to educate the public as
much. This would provide uniformity
and framework that could be built on.
2925
Our concerns are: that
recent trends indicate that more and more local radio and TV broadcasts are
moving to satellite feed from other larger broadcasting systems. This is allowing less availability at
the local level to provide emergency public messages, especially at night. If the system is interrupted at the
larger broadcast system, then the message is sent out to a far larger viewing
area than it needs to be.
2926
Another fear is that the CRTC will postpone this initiative based on
other prospectus, which may or may not compliment the current needs for
emergency public alerting.
2927
We need a standard emergency public alerting system in Canada that meet
the needs of the federal, provincial and municipal levels. Pelmorex is offering a system that is
currently workable is available to us now and it is time for us to have a
standard national system.
2928
Thank you for your time and for allowing us to present
today.
INTERVENTION
2929
MR. NORMAND: Mr. Chairman,
Members of the Commission, thank you very much. I would like to address the Commission
on behalf of the Ontario Association of Emergency
Managers.
2930
My name is Alain Normand. I
am President of the Association, which represents over 450 professional
emergency managers working in the province of Ontario.
2931
The primary role of the emergency manager is to ensure that citizens,
business and stakeholders are protected to the best of our ability during an
emergency.
2932
With the increase in number, intensity and range of impact of emergencies
we have experienced in Ontario and Canada over the last decade, the work of the
emergency manager has become more and more complex.
2933
Emergency managers have to be knowledgeable in weather patterns and the
impact of extreme weather.
2934
They need to understand local river courses and streams and the risk of
flooding attached to it.
2935
They must be aware of trends caused by global warming and, in particular,
the impact of heat waves.
2936
They must know about severe winter storms and be on the lookout for
them.
2937
They need to have a basic understanding of urban planning and land use
planning to prevent building in high risk areas.
2938
They need to understand the potential for emergencies caused by
hazard goods handling and nuclear risks.
2939
They must also keep track of the risk related to terrorism and violence
in our society in order to initiate appropriate security
measures.
2940
Emergency managers also have to be knowledgeable in principles of
business continuity to ensure the public still has access to services even
during a major disruption.
2941
Finally, emergency managers must understand the impact of health
emergencies such as SARS, West Nile Virus and looming pandemic
influenza.
2942
In all of these aspects emergency managers have recognized and accepted
their responsibility. We have
increased training and exercising in the province in order to prepare our
professionals for these eventualities.
2943
Emergency manager in Ontario and Canada, because they have taken their
responsibilities very seriously, have also initiated research and
development of new programs, tools and systems to enable them to do the job as
professionally as possible.
2944
Partnership with educational institutions, private enterprise and other
organizations with common interests and goals have been established for that
same purpose.
2945
At the same time, the public expectation and the risk of liability has
risen exponentially. To ensure that
the public is adequately informed, emergency public awareness programs and
emergency public education programs are constantly being refined and
upgraded.
2946
We work closely with risk management and insurance organizations to
enhance our preparedness and diminish the risk to our population, as well as
reduce the possibilities of costs incurred by governments to defend against
liability.
2947
I am sharing all of this in an attempt to indicate to this Commission how
seriously we are approaching you today to ask that you urgently take action on
the proposals brought before you.
2948
While we can invent new tools to make our work more efficient and protect
people better, there are areas for which we are dependent on
regulation.
2949
Telecommunication has always been one of the most import tools for an
emergency manager. While we have
made great strides in order to ensure better communication between emergency
responders and their stakeholders, we regrettably notice that we are at least a
decade behind in Canada in comparison to our neighbours to the south when it
comes to public alerting.
2950
Public alerting, where it is available, has time and time again proven to
save lives, while at the same time its absence has repeatedly been a factor
invoked where there was loss of life.
2951
Public alerting is one of the most crucial tools that emergency managers
require to be able to do their jobs of protecting lives. Unfortunately, in Canada this tool is
only available when local media are willing to provide
it.
2952
The voluntary nature of the present system of media‑based public alerting
has regularly shown to be unreliable.
It is left at the whim of the media owners.
2953
While our sole purpose as emergency manager for making use of public
alerting is to inform the public of imminent danger and provide instructions as
to how to cope when facing such danger, we find that media has a different
purpose which is much more related to profit‑making. They said this themselves recently in
the presentation that they are actually in competition over
stories.
2954
Media aims to have the most captivating, controversial and sometimes
gruesome coverage of emergency possible.
We contend that news is not solely information; news is
entertainment.
2955
During the 2003 SARS outbreak, media has shown exactly how unreliable it
was. The whole 905 ‑‑ this is
the 905 telephone area code ‑‑ surrounding the city of Toronto was left on
its own with regards to coverage of their particular plans for prevention and
mitigation of SARS in their communities.
Most of the communities in that area have no media in their jurisdiction
and rely on the Toronto media to inform their public. However, the only information that was
available was the coverage of a situation at the Toronto City Hall and at
Toronto hospital.
2956
Although press releases were sent, press conferences were organized,
telephone calls from mayors and officials were launched to various newsrooms,
very little of this information actually ended up on the
air.
2957
The same situation occurred again right after the 2003 blackout. Once the power was back, municipalities
had important messages regarding conservation of energy and measures to protect
citizens during the heat wave that ensued, but the only information emanated
again from downtown Toronto.
2958
There was reference also to the August 2005 floods. Again the messages that we are given by
the media was only about the Finch area flooding in Toronto, where actually at
the same time there were lots of other municipalities in the GTA that were
affected by this intense rain and we couldn't get our messages
out.
2959
We have heard comments that this proposal should be left to interested
parties, but we have experience that shows that the interest is not widespread
enough and often too narrow in focus.
2960
We have attempted to bring in the media as partners in emergency
management. Too often we find that
this plays against us. As a case in
point, media was invited recently to attend an exercise with evacuation of a new
Boeing with about 600 people on board.
The exercise was successful in that all 600 people were evacuated in
minutes.
2961
In the process, however, a dozen people suffered from sprained ankles and
a few bruises. Unfortunately, the
next day the headline, instead of praising the company for its effort in making
the plane safe and training its crew in emergency procedure, dwelled on the
few minor injuries that the actors sustained.
2962
This is but one more example demonstrating the media is not attempting to
be a partner in emergency management and therefore must be compelled to act for
the wellbeing of our citizens.
2963
We are saddened to say that because of their failure the choice can no
longer be left to the media. If we
have to choose between editorial independence and saving lives, in my mind the
choice is very clear.
2964
This is why we urge this Commission to quickly approve the proposals as
presented and provide us with the tools we need to protect
lives.
2965
When the project was presented the first time, we gave it full
support. We were
extremely disappointed by the decision of the CRTC to delay what was to us
a decision that could not afford to be postponed.
2966
Although some qualify the proposal as premature, we contend that this
solution is actually late in coming.
The expectation that we will have perfection both in the technological
and procedural aspect of this proposal is doing a disservice to the citizens of
Ontario and Canada. Any further
delay in approving the project could cost Ontarians and Canadians their lives
and their health.
2967
I have heard you worry about the definition of emergency. We say that the emergency managers
already know the definition of emergency since we have been using it for decades
now and actually it is in legislation in many places.
2968
You worry about the responsibility of authorized users. I can reassure that you are dealing with
professionals in the field of emergency management. I do take exception with the comments
that we just heard, saying that broadcasters are actually better at
providing information then
emergency managers.
2969
You are concerned with the questions of languages. We too have been concerned with this for
a long time, but making the rest of the community wait even longer until we have
devised the perfect system for the sake of minorities is only risking more
lives.
2970
In the end, you are asking the applicant to resolve all these matters
before you accept the proposal. We
contend it is not up to the applicant to resolve these matters, but is up to the
emergency managers to refine the ways they use the tool at their
disposal.
2971
Technological and procedure details are not a valid reason in our minds
to delay this project any longer.
You must act now. Any items
that need to be clarified, streamlined or improved upon to make the project work
should be part of the recommendations attached to the approval, not a reason for
refusing the project.
2972
On behalf of the Ontario Association of Emergency Managers, I wish to
thank you for giving us the opportunity to make it known how important this tool
is to the work of the emergency managers in Ontario and in
Canada.
2973
Thank you.
2974
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
very much.
2975
I am asking Commissioner del Val to initiate the
questions.
2976
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you.
2977
I will direct my question to the panel and then anyone can take up
answering and then the others could add if they feel necessary. Thank you for taking the time to
intervene.
2978
This was a question that I had directed to one of the earlier
intervenors. I think we can agree
that an actual alerting system must integrate its procedures and facilities with
those of emergency planning organizations at the municipal, provincial and
government levels.
2979
However, governments and their officials come and go. So if there were a new government, for
example, then they could have a new five priority or
whatever.
2980
What processes or mechanisms would you suggest be put in place to ensure
that the necessary ongoing coordination between the national alerting system and
the three levels of governance will be put in
place?
2981
MR. NORMAND: If I may,
particularly in Ontario I can say that this has already been resolved, because
the Ontario system is not reliant on politicians and change of government. The Ontario system is legislated, by
which every community in Ontario must have a designated emergency manager and an
alternate, which means that that person is an employee, not a politician, not an
elected official. It is a position,
not a person. So if that position
is changed, it becomes vacant, somebody else fills it, then automatically
whoever gets into that position becomes the person that is authorized. Certainly that has been resolved at the
Ontario level.
2982
MR. GARDNER: In the case of
Sarnia, we have it in our emergency plan as a municipal by‑law. Again, it's not a particular person,
it's not an elected official. We
have the Sarnia Police Service provide that service because they are a 24‑hour
service, they also look after our 9‑1‑1 system. It is also a senior officer. They do training once a week on
that. It is only 30 minutes of
training once a week, but they do that.
2983
It's governed. They are
legislated by federal law, provincial law and municipal by‑law, so they are part
of that authority. They are
governed what they can do and what they can't do.
2984
COMMISSIONER del VAL: I am
jumping to the question of the form of alert.
2985
We have talked about the possibilities of the message popping up that
directs you to another channel.
That is model one.
2986
Model two is where the boxes are automatically switched to an emergency
alert.
2987
Then the third model, there's a pop‑up on all channels receiving the
alert.
2988
Do you have any views as to what
is preferable?
2989
MR. DUFFY: That's a
difficult one, just speaking for the Fire Service in the city
of Mississauga.
2990
You want to get in front as many people as you can. The scrolling message along the bottom
of the screen is quite effective.
It may be difficult ‑‑ well, we tend to think everyone owns a
computer and everyone has access to a telephone. That message right there may be the only
message, so I think it's very important to get as much into the visible message
as you can so that people who are watching it are as well apprised to the
situation as they can be.
2991
That's not to make the message, you know, turn it into War and
Peace. It has to be succinct and
properly structured.
2992
I think, by the way, the syntax of the message can be readily established
and followed. So some of the
broadcasters that are somewhat concerned about what the message might appear
like and what is in there, I think the content as to where the message is
for ‑‑ I don't think you are going to deliver a message for Mississauga to
Vancouver for example and not have people notice that it really doesn't apply to
Vancouver. You would put the name
of the jurisdiction involved in the message. Certain things like that can be covered
off.
2993
I do think, however, it is fair for the broadcasters to be concerned that
the content of the message be accurate, because that can be very challenging
particularly for a fast developing situation which, by the way, I don't think
the media in consultation can be on the scene and consulted fast enough to deal
with some of the hazmat scenarios, hazardous materials scenarios, that
occasionally arise.
2994
I alluded to three that, as luck would have it, they were contained. Two of them were highly visible. They involved large explosions and fires
and you get all kinds of inquiries on that basis, and people coming to the
scene. Things get pretty
complicated pretty quickly and sometimes the information available to emergency
responders on the scene isn't very good information. It's not clear. Sometimes it's not clear that you might
have wrong information.
2995
So it is fair to make the comment as was made, that the actual
information given to the public be well considered and that it be accurate. You know, mistakes may get
made. I think that's part of the
game and you have to realize this is never going to be perfect because you
could have the wrong content in there.
2996
What you want to guard against, I believe, is frivolous use of the
system. The backed up sewer, I
mean, that's wrong. Those sorts of
things can be worked out. If this
was easy it would have been done 50 years ago. It's not easy, but to say it's not easy
doesn't mean it's impossible. These
things can be worked out. The
protocols can be put in place, the format can be arrived
at.
2997
A lot of the work has already been done. Let's learn from the Alberta
experience. Let's use that to make
sure that those sorts of things don't happen, or that they happen as minimally
as possible.
2998
MR. DUFFY: That may be a
little longer answer than what you were looking for.
2999
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
yes.
3000
MR. DUFFY: I wandered a
little bit, but I think getting as much information in front of them when you
have the opportunity is very important.
3001
COMMISSIONER del VAL: No,
that's good because I wanted to ask that question.
3002
The broadcasters, you have heard, the panel before you had said that they
should be the ones to decide on the content.
3003
I think I have heard Mr. Normand on this and your view is very clear
on this issue already, so I would like to see if Colonel Gardner and
Mr. Duffy would have anything to add to that view.
3004
MR. GARDNER: We have a very
good relationship with our local media.
In fact, when we interrupt programming it's only once or twice a year for
something that's major, It's
something that we can't wait. We
can't wait to get the radio stations up and running or the local cable
provider. We also page the media
out. So we include them right from
the start. But at first we want to
get the message out, what the public needs to do, shelter in
place.
3005
Then we always advise them to listen to the local radio stations and we
give the radio call letters as well.
We are not taking the job away from the broadcasters, we are directing
the public where they can get their information from. So it's just an initial
alert.
3006
Again, the radio and TV, and even other media from outside the community,
are on pagers which we pay for and we notify them. At the same time I'm being notified they
are getting the same message. So it
is not an opportunity to hide anything.
We want to get that message out there so we are sharing that
information.
3007
We have been lucky, because we have media that will work with us. At times there are difficulties, but we
need to get the correct information out then and at 2 o'clock in the morning,
that's our only method of doing it.
3008
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Who do
you think should have the final say?
Do you think the broadcaster should be able to say ‑‑ if you hand
them a message and say, "Look, this
is urgent, it's got to get out, people are going to die", and they look at it
and say "We haven't done our due diligence", who do you think should have the
final say on whether such a message gets broadcasted.
3009
MR. NORMAND: I'm afraid that
the experience has shown us that we can't rely on the media, particularly in
places where the media is not located there on
site.
3010
We have in Ontario 444 communities.
Only maybe a dozen ‑‑ I don't know because I haven't done the
count ‑‑ only a handful have actual media in their municipality. All the others rely on media that comes
from somewhere else.
3011
Now, occasionally when there is sensationalism there they do show up on
site, maybe the day or maybe a day after.
Very rarely do they come in before when there is a warning aspect, so we
can't rely on it. The
responsibility is at the emergency managers level and we have taken this
responsibility.
3012
I heard so much talk about liability. The emergency managers have already
taken responsibility for so many things that we could held liable with. Just recently the Criminal Code was
changed with Bill C‑45 to give
more liability risk and actually criminal risk if we neglect to realize where
the risk lies and neglect to do something about
it.
3013
We are already in the business of liability risk. This is not something we are afraid
of. We have taken that
responsibility and we will face what comes with it. But we don't pretend that because of the
fact that they are afraid of liability, because they have a very narrow focus,
both geographically and in content, we don't think that the broadcasters should
have the final say. It should be
left up to the emergency managers.
3014
MR. DUFFY: Thanks. If I could just add a little bit to
that?
3015
There has been some mention of risk, certainly from the coalition of
broadcasters that were sitting here earlier, and also the gentleman from Rogers
I think when he was asking for the CRTC or someone to give him some
direction. That might help them
strictly from a risk point of view.
If they are required to do it, it is pretty tough to sue somebody for
putting a message on that someone else told him to put up there and has
jurisdiction to tell them that.
3016
So I think the risk of the broadcasters in some cases, given the power of
the CRTC to regulate their activities, I think the risk could be constrained
almost to zero.
3017
Again, whoever provides the content of the message, whether it is
municipality or, in our case, Emergency Measures Ontario, Emergency Management
Ontario or the emergency services, you know there is a big onus on them to try
to get it right, and we are all well aware of
that.
3018
The emergency management legislation allows for good faith
decision‑making, and it also allows for the possibility that you might make
mistakes because the process isn't perfect.
3019
I think once the viewership got used to the idea of this being a
controlled process that the broadcasters or the cable company, or any other
group that might get into this later, are really required to produce or provide
the feed, provide that opportunity for the message to be relayed, that they will
understand that someone else is responsible for putting an accurate and timely
message on the screen and they are just doing their best to do it with the
technical system that has been made available.
3020
Also, in regards to who makes up the message, I come back to that
5‑minute timeframe. When I did my
initial talk I noted that there are all kinds of different emergencies that can
crop up. You have your
slow‑developing, long‑term events, it could be widespread, not widespread, but
certainly in the fire suppression and hazardous materials business you see a lot
of quickly developing situations that mostly get resolved, but you also see the
potential in many cases for things that could happen if things had gone just a
little bit differently.
3021
I think in those particular cases consulting with someone about the
message almost becomes impossible because of the timeframe
involved.
3022
Now, I would say again that the syntax of the message, how it is put
together, that could be agreed to upfront, nationally, provincially,
whatever. I'm sure that could be
constructed very easily. Getting
the content in there, I don't think you could leave that to the media. I understand their concerns, but I think
that would be very difficult for very many, many events.
3023
As I said earlier also, the getting it accurate, whoever puts that
together, that can be a very big challenge so they are right to be wary of the
potential problems that could come from an inaccurate message, but I don't think
it's their problems. After the
public has been properly educated, it's our problem and we have to wear that as
professionals.
3024
COMMISSIONER del VAL: I
think in our applications CBC has also talked about their radio component,
putting the signal out on radio.
3025
I'm not sure, I think at least Sarnia specifically mentioned support for
only Pelmorex. I could be wrong,
I'm sorry, one of these three.
3026
Do you support both or is it just Pelmorex who approached you or is there
something ‑‑ did you mean to just pick one, or is there a reason why you're
not also supporting CBC?
3027
MR. NORMAND: If I may, on my
side I can say that we have had more communication with Pelmorex so we are
more at ease in talking about that.
We have been talking. Plus
the fact that it already came and we knew about it the first time it was
presented to the CRTC. We had
examined it then, now we examined it again, so we are more at ease talking
about it.
3028
However, one system does not preclude the other. We want to have as many tools in our
back pockets as possible and if CBC comes up with a plan and a program we will
work ‑‑ emergency managers are ready to work with any organization that has
a plan.
3029
We know, as I think Cal said, we need to have a number of tools because
not everybody is watching TV at the same time, not everybody is listening to
radio, so we need ‑‑ and possibly we do need the sirens as well. We need as many ways as possible to
reach people.
3030
MR. DUFFY: If I could just
add to that?
3031
The Pelmorex proposal is here today. I realize there are some additional
steps that must be taken with equipment and fine‑tuning and some of the
processes that have been discussed here about who develops the message, and so
on, but generally speaking that appears to be a relatively short and doable
project where the decision that comes from this hearing, or any closely
associated hearings, is kind of the gatekeeper.
3032
The CBC proposal seems to require quite a bit of money and other things
and political decisions. You know
what, if that happens I suppose that's great, but there is no guarantee that
it's going to happen. If
everything hinged on that, we would be back in the same boat I guess we were
with this proposal. I wasn't
involved the first time around, but 1999 or whenever it came forward, and
where nothing has happened.
3033
As Alain mentioned, there are lots of different scenarios for trying to
contact people, they are not even all at home. Some of our biggest issues are
contacting people who aren't in the area.
If you have a school lockdown, which that is a police issue and it may
not be an emergency in Mississauga, but it might be an emergency in, I don't
know, Hearst or Smiths Falls or something like that. It would certainly be viewed as a local
emergency; they wouldn't necessarily declare an
emergency.
3034
But those sorts of things can involve people who aren't at home, aren't
in their car, aren't near a radio, aren't near television, don't have a
computer, and you try to get everything.
I suppose if we could get everybody to carry an AM radio, I mean if you
are in the emergency services business that's nirvana, but most people don't
wake up in the morning and worry about that sort of stuff.
3035
So we have to be realistic about everybody's focus in life. We are in this business so we think
about that kind of stuff. But you
want to get as many as you can, recognizing you are not going to get all of
them.
3036
But the Pelmorex proposal is here today. A lot of wrinkles that have to be ironed
out to make it work will help with any other proposals that come
along, but those other proposals aren't very well developed yet, or don't seem
to be from our point of view ‑‑ from my point of view. I can't speak for the
others.
3037
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you. Thank you for your
time.
3038
Those are my questions, Mr. Chair.
3039
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Commissioner Pennefather...?
3040
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
3041
I would like to first of all welcome you all, welcome you and, Mr. Duffy,
welcome. I must say, though, I miss
not meeting the major.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
3042
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: No
disrespect, but would you please give her our best. She is quite a model in this country for
women caring for their community for as long as she has.
3043
I wanted to get back to your point about the text and making sure that
it's as correct as possible, and then to Monsieur Normand saying "We would like
as many tools as we could to get the message to as many people as
possible."
3044
How do we keep consistency?
So if the protocols are created ‑‑ we have talked a lot about the
CANALERT guidelines. In your view,
are those the guidelines which would be applicable in this case that would
satisfy the various emergency organizations?
3045
I want to be clear about this, because the more we talk the more I want
to understand from your point of view.
You must have your own protocols to what happens when, what emergencies
cause what locally.
3046
When you issue an alert that you want to go to these television
systems via, let's say, a Pelmorex or a CBC proposal, how does that message then
get back onto the television screens in a way that is
consistent?
3047
Who sets the guidelines for the text, the format, et
cetera?
3048
We have been assuming that the organization nationally, since this is a
national alerting system, would use the CANALERT guidelines s they are currently
drafted or something similar.
3049
Could you just help me with that?
3050
MR. NORMAND: Yes. Certainly we are very much in favour of
the CANALERT and moving it forward and refining it and coming up with very
defined standards as to what messages can contain, how they process, the levels
of messaging that can be used.
So, yes.
3051
And we have been working with CANALERT on various aspects ‑‑ a lot
of our members, not me directly, but some of the members participate ‑‑ and
we see that as the first part.
3052
But we have always, in a certain sense, taken that step already at the
municipal level by first having that one conduit, which is the emergency manager
certainly in Ontario, the designated person who is already there and that is the
person that has the responsibility to ensure the accuracy of the message, to
make sure it is transmitted.
3053
Where we run into problems is that when we hand it over to the
broadcaster the message may take a different format because it is not following
those same standards.
3054
I'm not saying right now we are all emergency managers following that
same standard. When CANALERT comes
up with more detail we certainly will adopt them and work with them and train
some of our people as well to use them.
3055
But our problem is not the defining of the message, the problem is once
it's out of our hands we have absolutely no control over it, and that is what we
say we need to change.
3056
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Part of the concern has been from various angles that once it is out
of your ‑‑ ships off to a third party, be that the cable directly as Rogers
was discussing, or ExpressVu, or a third party as in the Pelmorex proposal or
the CBC, that it remains consistent to what you put forward. If it arrives at that point and there is
another set of protocol or guidelines which would change it and it arrives back
in your community not the way you sent it, you are assured that that circle will
be complete and accurate through your system?
3057
MR. NORMAND: Right. Which is why we think that the provider,
the system that actually puts the information out follows the same protocols as
we do, which was why we wanted to adopt the CANALERT system, because we think
the provider, the broadcaster at the other end, the cable companies, Pelmorex,
they will all follow the same standards.
So we are pretty reassured that once we hand it over it will remain the
same message all the way to the citizen who then certainly gets
it.
3058
The other aspect that we haven't maybe talked about is that even though
we want to have as much information as possible on the screen, we do have also
systems where our citizens can then confirm the message.
3059
As part of our emergency plans we have an information plan which requires
us now in Ontario to have a public inquiry
aspect.
3060
So we have to have, during an emergency, a call centre or a central line
where people can call in to get information, to get more details. We will never have enough details on the
screen to be able to tell you exactly what you have to do in every
situation.
3061
Certainly we look at some of the things in the SARS and the instructions
of what you should be doing were pretty long. There was a long list of dos and
don'ts. We don't pretend that that
is going to all appear on the screen.
3062
However, if citizens have a way to go back, we already have the systems
in place to provide the additional information, whether it be on websites or
through call centres or special information lines.
3063
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
What do you have for the visually impaired and hearing
impaired?
3064
MR. NORMAND: Not all of
them, but a lot of municipalities already have access through the ATT hearing
impaired ‑‑ correct me ‑‑ the ATT system. We are already connected to those. We have systems, the access through the
Internet.
3065
We also have systems actually for other languages where we have access to
translation services that if we do get requirement through our call
centres ‑‑ not every municipality, but a lot of them, and as we grow this
is going to become more and more frequent, but we have these systems already in
place to be able to take care of those
communities.
3066
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: In
addition to your system I believe the proposal in front of us has proposed that
for the visually impaired they would hear a message. Again, the text and what is contained
ex‑event plus as much information as is reasonable to put in to say "Here is
what you should do." One of those
"Here is what you should do" is call a 1‑800 number specifically for the purpose
of giving more information to those who could not see.
3067
My question yesterday was:
What assurance would we have that you at your end would be able to
respond, or who would respond so there would be a connection there, so that
1‑800 call wasn't going not to you but to someone else?
3068
Do you want to comment on that?
3069
MR. NORMAND: Certainly, as I
said, a lot of the municipalities right now would be able to respond. We already have 1‑800 lines or local
information lines that would be picked up right away for that exact
purpose.
3070
However, I know that at the province there is also capacity to support
municipalities that don't have these kinds of resources through the provincial
Emergency Operation Centre.
3071
Kashechewan for example is certainly a situation where the
municipality itself was unable to cope and needed the province to step
in and the province took a very major role in helping with that
evacuation.
3072
So in other similar situations the province is there. The responsibility of the province is
well laid out in legislation that they are to come in. Where a municipality determines that
they are unable to cope with their existing resources the province steps in and
takes over at least some of the functions.
One of the functions is that they already have centralized lines for the
province.
3073
It would be not much of a stretch to be able to transfer. We already transmit information about
our emergencies in our municipalities to the province. It is a requirement that as soon as we
have an emergency in our community we need to advise the province of what the
emergency is and what we are doing about it.
3074
So that information would be available at the province and people would
be able to hook up through the province in this way. So I don't see it as a major
stretch.
3075
MR. DUFFY: I'm sorry, if I
could just maybe add a little bit to that.
3076
I might suggest that in that particular area any language that was to be
considered would be somewhat general because you can't get ‑‑ a federal
body like the CRTC now, you are working in an area that involves provincial
jurisdiction, some municipal jurisdiction, and so on, and I think that it would
he difficult to make the legislation fit all the permutations, combinations, and
so forth, of what is out there.
3077
If the language is inherently detailed, and we will talk directly about a
1‑800 number of whatever else, I mean in general terms we are already required
to provide reasonable access to government service for people with an assortment
of challenges and I'm sure that this could be legislated in such a way that all
those things be taken into account, whether you are talking about people who are
visually impaired, hearing impaired, unable to read/write English, I don't
know. There are a variety of
things.
3078
But I think you would have to make sure that it is dealt with in the
preamble or wherever else, but it would be difficult I think to put requirements
in about technical solutions that, as Alain pointed out, might not be readily
delivered.
3079
In the 9‑1‑1 world we have this wireless location technology, but you
have municipalities that aren't able to deliver. Particularly in the United States, which
seems to be a couple of years ahead of us on that, the legislation was written
so that the phone company delivered something only if the local emergency
services delivered something and it became a chicken and egg problem. So in this case I think you would want
to make the language quite general.
3080
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: My
point wasn't that we would directly say, but the proposal has been made to us
that the service would provide this 1‑800 number, so I'm trying to see at the
other side how realistic a solution that would be, assuming that all your
systems are in place.
3081
One final question on the public education
side.
3082
If such a national alerting system came into play in addition to what
normally happens in you communities, 9‑1‑1 through to calling into the emergency
service, all the other things that usually happen, what are the key features of
a public education process to tell people what this national alert system is all
about and how it fits with your operations in the case of
emergency?
3083
Any comments on public education?
3084
MR. GARDNER: We do a number
of public education events.
Emergency Preparedness Week is one where we provide information to the
local population. We go to the
school boards as well, so all the schools are notified about public alerting,
what they should do, requirements, 72‑hour kits.
3085
The Red Cross is involved with that, the Salvation Army is involved with
that as well. The CAER
Organization, which is Community Awareness and Emergency Response
Organizations. So we do a lot of
that. Welcome Wagon. There are pamphlets that go into all the
Welcome Wagon.
3086
Also we are mandated too by the Emergency Management Act in Ontario to
provide a public educational program to the community. So we provide that. Also, on our website there is
information on "How will I be alerted?
What should I do in a chemical release warning", and so forth. We also have links to the federal
different organizations as well, and to provincial organizations, so they get
information from there as well.
3087
That is pretty much throughout Ontario I believe now, because we are
audited on it each year.
3088
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Okay. Thank
you.
3089
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr.
Gardner, I will have a few questions for you.
3090
In your presentation you mentioned that you have three local radio
stations and you are capable of interrupting their programming to have a warning
message.
3091
So you go directly without telling the stations that you are going to
broadcast a message, or how does it work?
3092
MR. GARDNER: We have a
network. All the plants are on one
radio, the hospital, ourselves, we can talk to each plant individually or all at
one time. So when there is an issue
that occurs, we provide that information to the public. We have an agreement with the local
radio stations whereby after hours if there is no one there we have one number
that contacts ‑‑ it's their hotline we call it, it calls all the radio
stations at one time. If they are
not there, then we access the radio system.
3093
But at the same time we are doing that, we have their pagers, we have
their cell numbers, we have their home numbers. If phone lines go down we will actually
send cruisers to their residential addresses to pick them up to get them to the
radio stations if we require them.
We do that automatically.
3094
As soon as we interrupt any radio or TV program, we announce who is doing
it, what the issue is ‑‑ it is a very brief message ‑‑ we tell the
population what they need to do and then we advise them to continue to listen
radio Sarnia Lambton for further information. Once Sarnia Lambton is in place they
continue to do broadcasting.
3095
We have a direct line with our radio stations, both in our EOC and
our 9‑1‑1 system. So once they are
in operation there, if there is a story that they hear they can confirm that is
the actual information.
3096
For example, we had a caller call into the radio station and they said
two of the plants were evacuating.
Radio Sarnia Lambton was able to call 9‑1‑1 directly, find out that it
was just a shift change, during an emergency, but someone went by, saw all the
cars leaving two of the plant, and automatically assumed that it was an
evacuation.
3097
In other locations that might have gone on the air and then panicked the
public. Then they call 9‑1‑1, then
it hampers the system of 9‑1‑1. So
we want to avoid those issues and that's why we have been able to do
it.
3098
The media is also welcome in our EOC, which we are probably really
different in allowing that, but they are our partners in it. But at the first time we need to be able
to do it under a 10‑minute timeframe, and you can't get people to a radio
stations, and also satellite feeds.
3099
THE CHAIRPERSON: Regarding
the Cogeco Cable, you say on most of their local Cogeco ‑‑ you mean on the
community channel, the barker channel, or do you mean on all the signals that
they are carrying?
3100
MR. GARDNER: Currently what
we do is, we test the cable the first Monday of the month at 12:30. All municipal centres and industrial
centres are sent out at the same time.
We have an agreement with Cogeco.
At this time the message goes from our 9‑1‑1 centre, our EOC operations
centre, to the local Cogeco office.
Some of those ‑‑ we interrupt the programming that originates from
the local area, so it's approximately 40 out of the 60
channels.
3101
So there are 20 channels that we aren't able to interrupt any more. Some of those channels come directly
from the Toronto area or the Burlington area. CTV is one channel that we can't
do interruptions.
3102
That's why I'm here today is that we do have a great system, but little
by little we are losing channels. I
would like to see a standard created where that if someone moves from Toronto or
out west, they come to Sarnia, that TV message is the same message, we don't
have to re‑educate them on that.
3103
Also, the availability of
doing all channels, because we are losing them, and more and more people are
going to satellite feed as well.
3104
You know, it's a good system, but we need to get on
board.
3105
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Efficient.
3106
MR. GARDNER:
Yes.
3107
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Gardner.
3108
MR. GARDNER: Thank
you.
3109
THE CHAIRPERSON: Legal
counsel has a question for you.
3110
MR. McCALLUM: Just one small
thing. In Sarnia you interrupted
you said, I think, just like twice in the last year. The previous group said that in Alberta
there are about 1,000 authorized users that can interrupt the system in
Alberta.
3111
I just wondered if you had any thoughts on the definition of
"emergency"? What would be the
appropriate things for the Commission to think about in terms of emergency? Should it be emergencies of an imminent
nature or present an imminent threat to public safety?
3112
What should the Commission consider to ensure that the number of
interruptions are the small number rather than too large a
number.
3113
MR. GARDNER: We base it on
life‑threatening or the potential to be life‑threatening. To me that seems the only reason, the
only cause to do it. If there is
any other reason to do a public announcement, then that is what the media is
there for, to provide the information and give them the phone numbers where they
can get that information from. So
we tried to limit it to that.
3114
Also, we are only interrupting the local area, whereas the Alberta
system, my understanding is, is interrupting a huge area. So it could be a population of 28,000,
but when they do it they could be interrupting over a million viewers. Sometimes that's overkill and I think
that can get you into more trouble than the way we do it which is interrupting
local area.
3115
That's why I think the ‑‑ I mean, there might be other situations
out there, but the Pelmorex system will localize that, and that meets our needs
as well.
3116
MR. McCALLUM: Where does
your own definition come from? How
did you come up with that definition?
3117
MR. GARDNER: We were just
doing this for 20 years and we have been in emergency planning for
50 years, so it just seemed commonsense that ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
3118
MR. NORMAND: If I can add
also, the province of Ontario does have a definition of what an emergency
manager is ‑‑ an emergency is, and is very clear that it is a danger or an
imminent danger that would require resources beyond normal resources which are
assigned to be ‑‑ I don't have the exact wording, but go beyond the
normal ‑‑ because of its magnitude, beyond the normal day‑to‑day operations
of existing resources of the community.
3119
That is the basic. Again, it
does apply to property as well, but for the purpose of public alerting we are
restricting it to health and safety and preservation of
life
3120
MR. McCALLUM: Thank
you.
3121
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
3122
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr.
Normand, Mr.Duffy, Mr. Gardner, thank you very much.
3123
MR. GARDNER: Thank
you.
3124
THE CHAIRPERSON: We will
take a 10‑minute break, so we will be back at 20 to 4
o'clock.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1527 /
Suspension à 1527
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1547 /
Reprise à 1547
3125
THE CHAIRPERSON: Order,
please. À l'ordre, s'il vous
plaît.
3126
Madame la
Secrétaire.
3127
LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci, Monsieur le Président.
3128
J'inviterais maintenant le prochain intervenant, qui est Québécor Média,
messieurs Édouard Trépanier, Claude Sauvé et Daniel Proulx, à faire leur
présentation. Vous avez 10 minutes
pour le faire. Merci.
3129
M. TRÉPANIER : Merci.
INTERVENTION
3130
M. TRÉPANIER : Monsieur le Président du Comité d'audition et
Vice‑Président du Conseil, mesdames les conseillères, membres du personnel, mon
nom est Édouard Trépanier. Je suis
Vice‑Président, Affaire réglementaires, Québécor
Média.
3131
M'accompagnent aujourd'hui, à ma gauche, monsieur Daniel Proulx,
Vice‑Président, Principal ingénieur, Ingénierie; et à ma droite, Claude Sauvé,
Vice‑Président, Programmation Tous Deux de Vidéotron.
3132
Nous sommes heureux d'être ici aujourd'hui afin de contribuer aux
délibérations entourant les demandes de service d'alerte
multi‑canale.
3133
Claude.
3134
M. SAUVÉ : Merci, Édouard.
3135
Chez Vidéotron, nous considérons que l'offre au public d'un service
normalisé d'alerte multi‑canale fait naturellement partie de notre stratégie
multi‑service. Nous offrons des
services de divertissement, des services d'information, des services de
communication, et nous croyons que la sécurité complète vient au
forfait.
3136
Nous avons examiné les demandes à l'étude, et nous avons conclu que, avec
la connaissance du marché dont nous disposons aujourd'hui, le service d'alerte
pour retransmission en mode analogique est trop coûteux.
3137
En outre, sa granularité est insuffisante pour offrir un service
pertinent.
3138
Enfin, l'ajout de nombreuses composantes à une architecture déjà trop
complexe et d'un équilibre délicat constitue un véritable risque
technologique.
3139
Par ailleurs, l'accélération récente du déploiement de la distribution
numérique nous porte à croire que, à la fin de 2007, la majorité de notre
clientèle utilisera la technologie numérique.
3140
Compte tenu du temps requis pour le processus décisionnel, pour la
planification de déploiement national, pour la mise en oeuvre du système, et
pour la période de test pratique, nous sommes convaincus qu'au moment où le
service d'alerte sera lancé, la technologie analogique basculera vers le
déclin.
3141
En effet, toutes ces étapes pourraient facilement prendre plus de deux
ans, ce qui nous amènerait vers la fin de 2008 ou le début de
2009.
3142
Dès l'an prochain, les terminaux de normes ouvertes dites OCAP, ou open
cable protocol, seront disponibles chez les détaillants d'appareils
électroniques. Les téléviseurs
munis d'une carte OCAP sont déjà dans les magasins, et les téléviseurs avec
mémoire intégrée pour recevoir les algorithmes d'accès téléchargeables sont à 18
mois de la vente au détail.
3143
Nos prévisions sont donc à l'effet qu'en 2008 ou en 2009, nous arriverons
au seuil critique où nous devrons décider si nous maintenons la technologie
analogique pour une minorité dite réductible.
3144
Dans ce contexte, il nous semble inapproprié que le Conseil impose la
distribution d'un service d'alerte multi‑canale pour retransmission analogique,
et ce, peu importe qui en assume les frais, car l'utilisation d'un tel service
analogique serait éphémère et les investissements requis pour l'installer
perdus.
3145
Quant au service d'alerte pour retransmission numérique, notre premier
choix, c'est clairement que le Conseil ne nous l'impose pas. Mais il faut être
réaliste.
3146
Comment penser que les organismes veillant à la sécurité des Canadiens
puissent appuyer leur action sur un service d'alerte si ce service est
disponible dans certains cas et ne l'est pas dans d'autres, selon le gré
d'entreprises privés de distribution?
3147
Daniel.
3148
M. PROULX: Merci,
Claude.
3149
Dans le cadre d'un projet d'offre d'un service normalisé d'alerte
multi‑canale, nous reconnaissons le besoin de mettre en place un tel système
pour la sécurité publique, et nous avons choisi d'appuyer Pelmorex dans sa
démarche qui vise à déterminer une architecture viable pour les opérateurs de
réseau.
3150
Par le passé, nous avons déployé des systèmes de diffusion ciblés en
collaboration avec cette requérante, et cette dernière a été sensible aux enjeux
technologiques rencontrés lors de la mise en place.
3151
Pelmorex se dit encore prêt à travailler avec les distributeurs et à
jouer le rôle d'aggrégateur avec un ensemble d'organismes publics qui sont
souvent moins bien coordonnés que nous le souhaitons.
3152
En numérique, nous envisageons collaborer avec Pelmorex à la
détermination de l'architecture technologique la plus appropriée pour la mise
sur pied d'un réseau d'alerte nationale.
3153
Lorsqu'il s'agit de la tête de ligne ou le coeur de notre réseau, nous
sommes d'avis que chaque opérateur de réseau doit demeurer responsable de
déterminer la meilleure façon d'intégrer un service de ce type à son
architecture, au système de contrôle, ainsi qu'aux applications logicielles des
terminaux numériques.
3154
Alors que Pelmorex, grâce à son expérience acquise avec l'offre de
services ciblés des prévisions météorologiques, s'engage à jouer un rôle
d'intégrateur/collaborateur, les autres requérantes ne veulent pas s'en mêler et
ne s'intéressent pas aux coûts afférents.
3155
Le plan d'affaires de Pelmorex le démontre, les coûts ne sont pas
négligeables. Nous pensons que,
comme grande nation démocratique, le Canada devrait en assumer le fardeau
financier, mais afin de faire avancer le dossier d'un système d'alerte
nationale, Pelmorex a consenti à prendre un risque financier et à nous refiler
la facture, ainsi qu'à nos clients.
3156
Si le Conseil a le pouvoir de convaincre les organismes publics
responsables de la sécurité des Canadiens de réviser leur position et d'assumer
les coûts, nous l'encourageons à le faire et à insister sur un principe voulant
que, à moins que le Parlement en ait décidé ainsi, il n'est pas convenable de
compter sur des entreprises privées pour défrayer des services
publics.
3157
Édouard.
3158
M. TRÉPANIER : Alors, ce n'est pas de gaieté de coeur que Vidéotron
appuie cette requérante, mais bien afin de contribuer à faire avancer un dossier
que nous reconnaissons être d'une grande importance.
3159
C'est en tenant compte de ces circonstances que nous demandons au
Conseil, s'il juge à propos de mettre en place un service alerte multi‑canale,
d'approuver la proposition de Pelmorex pour retransmission en numérique
seulement; d'autoriser la retransmission des services d'alerte en mode
analogique sur une base volontaire; d'inscrire dans l'ordonnance de distribution
et/ou dans le Règlement que ni l'entreprise de distribution de radiodiffusion,
ni la chaîne dont la programmation est altérée ne sont responsables du contenu
diffusé par un message d'alerte ou du bon fonctionnement de l'alerte; de
s'assurer que seuls les frais de mise en oeuvre et d'exploitation soient compris
dans la facture à refiler au public, selon une comptabilité supervisée;
d'encadrer la définition d'alerte de façon à n'y inclure que les nouveaux
messages d'alerte qui menacent les personnes; de définir de façon limitative les
organismes publics déclencheurs autorisés d'alerte; et enfin, de rendre la
requérante imputable devant le Conseil au cas où le public serait d'avis qu'il y
a abus d'utilisation.
3160
Mesdames, Monsieur le Président, je vous remercie de l'attention portée à
notre présentation. Nous sommes
prêts à répondre à vos questions.
3161
LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci, Monsieur Trépanier. Merci, messieurs Sauvé et
Proulx.
3162
Si je comprends bien, en utilisant votre conclusion à la page 8,
essentiellement, ce que vous nous dites, c'est que... bon, vous nous demandez un
certain nombre de choses, dont une a fait l'objet de discussion avec plusieurs
des intervenants. C'est
l'identification des organismes publics déclencheurs autorisés
d'alerte.
3163
Plusieurs ont suggéré que la définition qu'en donne CANALERT était une
définition qui leur était acceptable.
Avez‑vous des commentaires à ce sujet‑là?
3164
M. TRÉPANIER : Pas de commentaire additionnel au fait que CANALERT est un
organisme public certainement apte à déterminer quels sont les organismes qui
seraient autorisés à diffuser des alertes, et en ce sens, nous croyons que
Pelmorex a fait le travail nécessaire d'aggrégateur pour s'assurer qu'il n'y
aurait pas utilisation frivole d'alerte.
3165
LE PRÉSIDENT : D'accord.
Mais si je prends la définition, effectivement, de * authorized
user + dans le document
de CANALERT ‑‑ malheureusement, je ne l'ai pas en français avec moi ‑‑
mais on peut quand même croire que c'est limitatif, mais c'est limitatif à un
grand nombre d'intervenants.
3166
M. TRÉPANIER : Peut‑être je me répète, mais effectivement, c'est ce
travail de relation avec ce grand nombre d'intervenants qui devient important et
certainement qui demande beaucoup de temps pour arriver à tenir compte des
besoins de l'industrie de la radiodiffusion et de la
distribution.
3167
Si, par exemple, il y avait 1 000 intervenants au Canada, ça
deviendrait ingérables, et c'est pour ça que ça prend un intermédiaire, nous
pensons, entre Vidéotron et les organismes publics aptes à produire des
alertes.
3168
LE PRÉSIDENT : On a entendu aujourd'hui qu'il y avait en Alberta
1 000 intervenants. Donc, au
Canada, il y en aurait, à ce compte‑là, 10 000,
12 000.
3169
Bien, limitons ça au territoire qui est desservi par Vidéotron, parce
qu'on voit bien... on a vu aujourd'hui des représentants des corps de la
sécurité publique, on a vu des gens des corps policiers, des corps de pompiers,
et tous ont des pouvoirs ‑‑ du moins, c'est ce qu'ils nous ont dit ‑‑
de déclencher des alertes, des alertes très localisées.
3170
Évidemment, le chef des pompiers de Mississauga ne parlait pas de
déclencher des alertes à Toronto, il parlait de déclencher des alertes à
Mississauga. Mais malgré tout,
c'est un nombre important d'intervenants, et tous disaient que, dans leur propre
municipalité, dans leur propre région, ils n'étaient pas les seuls à avoir ce
pouvoir‑là, c'était un pouvoir... bien, premièrement, c'est un pouvoir 24 heures
par jour, sept jours par semaine.
Donc, on parle de nombreux intervenants.
3171
Je comprends que Pelmorex veut jouer le rôle d'interface dans tout ce
monde‑là, mais vous, vous nous dites d'en limiter le nombre. Et je comprends aussi qu'il n'y a pas
des interventions continues‑là, il n'y a pas des événements... une chance, on
n'a pas des événements de manière continue, et j'espère qu'on n'en aura jamais
de manière continue.
3172
Mais c'est quand même beaucoup de personnes qui sont impliquées dans
l'émission de la commande.
3173
M. SAUVÉ : Je pense qu'un élément important, c'est, si on veut que ça
soit efficace, ça va prendre, effectivement, des normes nationales, ça va
prendre un contrôle national à quelque part pour voir qui peut déclencher des
alertes.
3174
Je peux comprendre, effectivement, qu'il y a différentes personnes,
différents groupes, mais le danger qui nous guette avec ça, c'est de se ramasser
avec un service... vous connaissez sûrement la contine Pierre et le loup
là ‑‑ je ne sais pas si c'est Pierre ‑‑
3175
LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.
3176
M. SAUVÉ : ‑‑ mais l'enfant qui criait, au loup, au loup, au loup,
puis un moment donné, la vraie fois que le loup est arrivé, les gens ne
réagissaient plus.
3177
Donc, je pense que le danger est réel à ce moment‑là. C'est pour ça qu'on pense que le nombre
d'intervenants doit être contrôlé.
3178
Ceci dit, moi, je pense que... je dis moi, Vidéotron, on n'a pas le goût
d'aller négocier avec chacun de ces intervenants‑là pour voir si c'est justifié
dans leur cas à eux qu'ils puissent déclencher une alerte, et je pense que ça,
c'est les normes nationales qui vont permettre de définir qui devrait
l'être.
3179
Mais on pense que c'est important de garder un système qui va être
utilisé seulement dans les recours vraiment importants.
3180
LE PRÉSIDENT : Et c'est pour ça que vous appuyez le projet de Pelmorex,
parce que ça vous évite à vous d'avoir à filtrer chacune des
interventions?
3181
M. TRÉPANIER : Effectivement, et en plus, il s'agit d'une titulaire de
licence assujettie au Conseil, ce qui nous donne l'occasion s'il y avait abus
d'intervenir auprès du Conseil pour essayer de trouver une façon que le Conseil,
par exemple, demande à Pelmorex, si on ne peut pas s'entendre, de trouver une
façon d'ajuster le système pour que les alertes soient vraiment prises au
sérieux partout au pays.
3182
LE PRÉSIDENT : Donc, ça évite... effectivement, ce que vous dites, c'est
que Pelmorex étant déjà une titulaire et ayant déjà, donc, une expérience avec
le Conseil, et vous aussi, il y a un mariage qui est plus facile qu'avec un
tiers indépendant qui naîtrait d'une volonté de gérer des systèmes
d'alerte?
3183
M. TRÉPANIER : Tout à fait, et qui serait probablement peu préoccupé
d'intervenir un nombre de fois exagéré et d'interrompre la programmation
d'entreprises de programmation qui sont généralement responsables de leur
contenu.
3184
LE PRÉSIDENT : Maintenant, vous dites aussi dans certaines conclusions
que les messages d'alerte qui seraient diffusées, c'est des messages d'alerte
qui ne concernent que les personnes.
3185
Or, on a bien entendu que... dans certains cas, on a parlé aussi
d'alertes qui concernent aussi la propriété ou des dommages aux biens. Une tornade, ça peut, effectivement,
affecté des personnes, mais ça peut aussi être extrêmement dommageable à des
biens matériels.
3186
C'est sûr que si on fait un message pour une tornade, je présume qu'on
peut... la tornade elle‑même, elle est, effectivement, un danger pour les deux
dans ce cas‑là.
3187
J'essaie de penser à une situation d'urgence qui serait uniquement
spécifique aux biens là. J'en ai
pas qui me viennent à l'esprit.
Mais pour vous, c'est clair dans votre esprit que c'est limité à des
menaces à la vie de personnes?
3188
M. TRÉPANIER : C'est bien notre intention que ce soit limité à des
menaces à la vie ou à l'intégrité de la personne, et ce n'est sûrement pas
facile de tirer la ligne exactement au bon
endroit.
3189
Dans la présentation de Pelmorex, il y avait, par exemple, tempête de
neige au Québec, et nous, on s'est consulté et on s'est dit, bien, au Québec, on
est habitué à des tempêtes de neige, et pour nous, ce ne serait pas suffisamment
important.
3190
Maintenant, si on parle de vents de 160 kilomètres/heure, peut‑être que
là, c'est autre chose. Alors, il y
a une question de jugement, et on s'en remet aux experts.
3191
LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous nous parlez aussi d'inscrire dans une décision du
Conseil ou une ordonnance dans un Règlement que ni l'entreprise de distribution
de radiodiffusion, ni la chaîne de programmation ne sont responsables des
contenus...
3192
Avez‑vous pensé à un libellé pour une modification
réglementaire?
3193
M. TRÉPANIER : Non, Monsieur le Président. On n'a pas fait l'analyse réglementaire,
à savoir quelle serait la meilleure façon d'arriver aux
objectifs...
3194
LE PRÉSIDENT : Que vous souhaitez?
3195
M. TRÉPANIER : Oui, c'est ça.
Exactement.
3196
Avec monsieur McCallum à bord, je suis convaincu qu'il va vous faire des
suggestions de grande qualité.
‑‑‑ Rires /
Laughter
3197
LE PRÉSIDENT : Mais il va peut‑être revenir avec un question à la
fin.
‑‑‑ Rires /
Laughter
3198
LE PRÉSIDENT : Elle est déjà prête.
‑‑‑ Rires /
Laughter
3199
LE PRÉSIDENT : Je comprends votre argument concernant la distribution en
mode analogique à l'effet que, bon, la technologie change tellement rapidement
que vous prévoyez que l'ère du numérique est tellement
près.
3200
Mais est‑ce que vous serez réellement dans l'ère du numérique à travers
tout votre territoire pour les dates que vous avez
mentionnées?
3201
M. TRÉPANIER : Je vais demander à mon collègue Claude de commenter sur
l'aspect de l'accélération et du fait que la clientèle recevra la numérique à
partir d'un certain moment, et à mon collègue Daniel de commenter peut‑être sur
les développements technologiques.
3202
Quant au nombre de clients de Vidéotron qui ne sont pas ou qui ne seront
pas dans les, je dirais, deux ou trois prochains mois, ne seront pas... n'auront
pas accès au numérique, on parle de peut‑être 25 000 clients sur 1.4, 1.5
millions. On parle de zones très
éloignées qui sont de tous petits réseaux.
3203
Alors, en terme de proportion, je pense que c'est... je ne dirais pas
négligeable, mais c'est quand même une toute petite
proportion.
3204
LE PRÉSIDENT : Mais c'est peut‑être eux qui ont besoin d'être avisés d'un
événement cet après‑midi?
3205
M. TRÉPANIER : Peut‑être, mais je vous soumets que si je demeure à
Chapais ou à Chibougamau et il se passe quelque chose de bien important, je vais
aussi l'apprendre rapidement, parce que tout le monde va être sur le
perron.
‑‑‑ Rires /
Laughter
3206
LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.
3207
M. SAUVÉ : Puis le risque d'acte de terrorisme lorsqu'on est là est
peut‑être plus mince aussi.
‑‑‑ Rires /
Laughter
3208
LE PRÉSIDENT : Non, mais... enfin, les probabilités d'une tornade à
Chapais sans doute aussi.
‑‑‑ Rires /
Laughter
3209
LE PRÉSIDENT : Mais émettons l'hypothèse d'une tornade, c'est sûr que
tout le monde va être sur le perron, et il restera rien que des
perrons.
‑‑‑ Rires /
Laughter
3210
M. SAUVÉ : Possiblement.
3211
Pour reprendre le point, effectivement, au niveau de la distribution
numérique, on est en période rapide de croissance.
3212
L'année passée, on a fait plus de 135 000 de croissance de clients
numériques, et on est rendu maintenant à.... bien, au 31 décembre, on était à
près de 500 000 clients. On
parle, donc, d'une croissance qui a vraiment accéléré, où vraiment, il y a un
engouement pour le service numérique.
3213
Récemment, il y a eu des chaînes numériques francophones, qui n'étaient
pas disponibles auparavant, qui ont vu le jour. La distribution numérique à haute
définition prend de plus en plus d'ampleur.
3214
On prévoit rajouter encore six services, et l'ensemble de ces
services‑là, on pense, vont amener de plus en plus nos clients, même les
irréductibles qui avaient peut‑être des fois juste la base analogique, on pense
que pour ces attraits‑là, ne serait‑ce que pour la haute définition, on va voir
encore s'accélérer ce transfert‑là.
3215
On est même surpris de l'engouement puis de la vitesse auquel ça va. Donc, on est pas mal certain que vers
2008‑2009 on aura des décisions importantes à prendre dans ce
sens‑là.
3216
LE PRÉSIDENT : Avant peut‑être que monsieur
Proulx...
3217
Ça, c'est 500 000 abonnés qui ont, aujourd'hui, un terminal Illico,
qu'il soit acheté, qu'il soit avec un PVR, qu'il soit... le terminal de base
là?
3218
M. SAUVÉ : Oui.
3219
LE PRÉSIDENT : C'est de ça dont on parle?
3220
M. SAUVÉ : Oui. On parle...
je ne vous parle pas de terminaux, parce que si je vous parlais de terminaux
numériques, ça serait encore plus que ça.
Il y en a plusieurs par foyer même.
3221
LE PRÉSIDENT : Donc, vous parlez de 500 000 foyers qui sont passés au
numérique, et il peut y avoir plus qu'un terminal...
3222
M. SAUVÉ : Oui.
3223
LE PRÉSIDENT : ...numérique par foyer?
3224
M. TRÉPANIER : En fait, sans divulguer des choses qui n'ont pas été
divulguées, je dirais qu'on est entre 35 et 40 pour cent de nos clients qui
reçoivent la distribution numérique, et je ferais remarquer que les autres
grands distributeurs au Canada sont davantage avancés que
Vidéotron.
3225
M. PROULX : Notre préférence pour le numérique, c'est surtout au niveau
de la granularité.
3226
Quand on parle de distribuer des messages d'alerte, puis qu'on veut
cibler de façon précise à qui s'adresse ce message‑là, de façon à ce que le
message soit pertinent, c'est qu'on préfère avoir un système numérique qui nous
permet de cibler quels abonnés vont avoir le message.
3227
LE PRÉSIDENT : C'est parce que j'avais ça comme question pour bien
comprendre la notion de granularité.
Ce que vous dites, c'est finalement, c'est une zone extrêmement bien
définie, donc, qui peut être adressable pour à qui envoyer, de manière très
restreinte, le message d'alerte, parce que ça vous
concerne.
3228
Ce matin, on a entendu le chef de la sécurité publique de l'Ontario qui
nous parlait... parce que, au Québec, quand même, on a une usine nucléaire, mais
probablement pas dans votre territoire.
Mais lui, il disait qu'elle n'est pas loin dans votre territoire. Elle est dans votre
territoire?
3229
M. TRÉPANIER : Non. Non,
tout près.
3230
LE PRÉSIDENT : Elle est tout près, Bécancour. Mais il disait qu'ils avaient des
règles, effectivement, pour rejoindre les résidants à trois kilomètres autour de
cet emplacement‑là.
3231
Quand vous me parlez de granularité, c'est exactement ce que vous...
c'est le même concept, c'est‑à‑dire on est capable de définir de manière très
restreinte les populations qui demeurent autour de centres qui nécessitent
davantage d'interventions de sécurité.
3232
On peut penser à Montréal est avec ses raffineries. Donc, évidement, c'est un secteur où il
y a plus de danger, je suppose, que sur le sommet du
Mont‑Royal.
3233
Donc, la granularité, c'est...
3234
M. PROULX : C'est exactement ça.
C'est qu'on peut cibler à peu près... avec la technologie actuelle, les
gens me disent à peu près 6 000 portes qui seraient visées par une alerte,
un avis d'alerte.
3235
Puis si on avait besoin, avec les modifications logicielles, on pourrait
certainement raffiner encore plus cette
granularité‑là.
3236
LE PRÉSIDENT : Parce que c'est uniquement du logiciel, donc, ce n'est pas
de l'équipement?
3237
M. PROULX : C'est du logiciel.
3238
LE PRÉSIDENT : C'est du logiciel.
3239
Monsieur Trépanier nous a dit tantôt qu'il restait encore 25 000
abonnés qui seraient dans des zones uniquement de type
analogique.
3240
Par 2008‑2009, est‑ce que ces territoires‑là seront devenus aussi des
territoires où la technologie numérique sera implantée, ou ça demeurera encore
des territoires à service analogique, et si c'est le cas, quels seraient les
coûts qui seraient reliés à offrir un service de sécurité dans ces
territoires‑là?
3241
M. PROULX : Ce sont des très petits territoires. Fort possiblement qu'on pourrait
desservir ces régions‑là avec une granularité suffisante pour que le service
soit pertinent.
3242
Puis les coûts, dépendant de la solution technologique, ça pourrait
coûter... c'est difficile à donner un chiffre parce que ce sont toutes des
petites pochettes réellement petites, puis il va falloir faire une grille pour
chacune de ces pochettes‑là, mais certainement que si on n'est pas numérique, on
trouvera une solution pour que ces gens‑là soient
alertés.
3243
LE PRÉSIDENT : Parce que, effectivement, ils pourraient tous recevoir le
même message parce qu'ils sont tous dans un territoire bien
défini?
3244
M. PROULX : Bien défini et souvent très petit.
3245
M. TRÉPANIER : Et souvent, étant des régions éloignés, ils ont une ou
parfois deux stations de radio que, évidemment, tout le monde écoute parce que
c'est difficile de recevoir autre chose.
3246
Mais j'aimerais vous rappeler que dans notre intervention écrite, on a
fait remarquer que si on décidait... et on pense que c'est le genre de décision
qu'on devra prendre en 2009, peut‑être même en 2008.
3247
Si Vidéotron décidait de poursuivre la service analogique pour une
clientèle qui ne veut pas changer de téléviseur ou avoir un terminal, une
fameuse boîte noire, dans sa maison, à ce moment‑là, on est ouvert à trouver des
solutions analogiques, excepté que le risque aujourd'hui, que l'on croit
véritable, c'est que l'on décide de se retirer complètement de l'analogique,
sauf dans des petits réseaux très éloignés.
3248
LE PRÉSIDENT : Ne croyez‑vous pas qu'il y aura toujours des
irréductibles? Je ferais le pari
qu'il y a encore des téléviseurs noir et blanc.
3249
M. SAUVÉ : J'ai pensé ça pendant un certain bout de temps, mais je vous
dirais que, de plus en plus, on voit même que la base des irréductibles diminue,
et je pense qu'est‑ce qui va faire la plus grosse différence, c'est la haute
définition.
3250
C'est parce que même des gens... des fois on se dit que les gens prennent
le service de base du câble seulement pour avoir une meilleure réception de TVA
ou de Radio‑Canada ou des chaînes principales. Je pense que si c'est justement pour
avoir une meilleure réception, ils vont vouloir, ces gens‑là, un jour ou
l'autre, faire la transition vers la haute définition.
3251
Donc, on pense que ces irréductibles‑là, rendus à ce moment‑là, vont être
de moins en moins difficiles à convaincre d'aller vers le
numérique.
3252
M. TRÉPANIER : Et j'ajouterais ‑‑ si vous permettez, Monsieur le
Président ‑‑ qu'il arrive un moment dans la gestion de la bande passante...
qui, évidemment, coûte une fortune, parce qu'il s'agit d'investir toujours des
dizaines, quand ce n'est pas des centaines de millions de dollars pour cette
fameuse bande passante.
3253
Il arrive un moment où ça devient plus payant pour une entreprise de
distribution de convertir les gens, un peu malgré eux, avec au moins une petite
poussée dans le dos, que de les conserver dans la distribution analogique, qui
prend 6 MHz par canal.
3254
LE PRÉSIDENT : On a parlé au cours des deux... particulièrement hier,
mais ça été reposé sous forme de question à plusieurs des intervenants
d'aujourd'hui. On a parlé de trois
modèles d'émission d'un message.
3255
Il y a Pelmorex qui propose une diffusion en bande. Dans la présentation audiovisuelle qu'on
nous a fait hier, la bande défilante est au milieu de l'écran plutôt qu'être en
bas ou en haut de l'écran, puisqu'il y a des services de nouvelles continues qui
utilisent la bande du bas. Donc,
ils diffuseraient la bande défilante au milieu.
3256
Il y a Radio‑Canada qui a proposé un panneau d'alerte rouge un peu
semblable comme celui dont on trouve sur MétéoMédia quand il y a des
alertes.
3257
Il y avait dans la proposition écrite d'ExpressVu... quoique, hier, ils
nous ont dit qu'ils favorisaient maintenant plutôt le panneau du type de celui
que Radio‑Canada proposait, mais eux, ils proposaient une bulle dans laquelle on
pouvait trouver une invitation à aller se repositionner à un autre canal pour
avoir le message d'information.
3258
Est‑ce que vous avez, vous, réfléchi à la méthode la plus appropriée pour
offrir un message d'alerte?
3259
M. TRÉPANIER : Je vais demander à mon collègue Daniel de vous parler des
implications technologiques.
3260
Mais tout simplement, d'un point de vue graphique, j'aimerais dire que ce
qui importe, c'est que l'entreprise de programmation affectée... qu'il n'y ait
pas de confusion de la part du public entre ce que l'entreprise pourrait ajouter
et ce qui est un véritable message provenant d'un organisme
public.
3261
Alors, s'il faut se rendre jusqu'à la page rouge et le lettrage blanc en
gros caractères, je pense que des experts graphiques pourront peut‑être vous
conseiller sur l'effet là‑dessus, mais d'un point de vue technologique, il y a
des distinctions.
3262
M. PROULX : Le système que nous utilisons, c'est le système de Scientific
Atlanta. Ça fait que si on allait
avec la solution, je dirais, vanille de SA, ça serait un affichage ou un
fostiôme. Ils ont les deux options,
ça fait que au choix de Pelmorex ou des gens qui sont responsables d'établir des
normes.
3263
Si ça ne convient pas, il faudra demander au fournisseur de revoir la
programmation du terminal. Puis à
ce moment‑là, en fonction de délais de coûts, on évaluera.
3264
Mais d'office, ça va être la même solution que les gens qui utilisent
Scientific Atlanta.
3265
LE PRÉSIDENT : Et qui est‑ce qui utilise Scientific Atlanta
présentement?
3266
M. PROULX : Il y a nous. Il
y a Rogers pour une partie de ses réseaux.
Je ne sais pas si c'est la totalité de ses réseaux. Je ne peux pas
répondre.
3267
M. TRÉPANIER : C'est un affichage pour une page ou c'est
un...
3268
M. PROULX : Non, c'est un overlay.
3269
LE PRÉSIDENT : Donc, c'est une image fixe ou...
3270
M. PROULX : C'est une surimposition sur
vidéo.
3271
LE PRÉSIDENT : Une surimposition.
Alors que le projet de Pelmorex qu'on a vu hier, c'est une bande
défilante qui passait au milieu de l'écran.
3272
M. TRÉPANIER : Je pense que le projet de Pelmorex, c'est effectivement
une superimposition sur l'image.
3273
LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui. Alors
que dans le cas de Radio‑Canada, c'est une interruption...
3274
M. TRÉPANIER : Oui.
3275
LE PRÉSIDENT : ...avec le défilement d'une bande horizontale, qui est
déroulante aussi....
3276
M. TRÉPANIER : Oui.
3277
LE PRÉSIDENT : ...parce que le message était en français et en
anglais.
3278
M. TRÉPANIER : Oui. Dans ce
cas‑là, c'est, je pense, ce qu'on appelle un forced tuning, c'est‑à‑dire que, de
façon virtuelle, tous les canaux sont changés instantanément à un seul canal qui
a ce panneau‑là, alors que la solution de Pelmorex, c'est esthétiquement et
technologiquement plus sophistiqué.
3279
Est‑ce qu'elle est plus efficace?
C'est là que je n'ai pas la réponse, mais en termes esthétiques et
technologiques, elle est plus sophistiquée.
3280
LE PRÉSIDENT : D'accord.
J'avais une question, puis je l'ai perdue. J'espère que ça va
revenir.
3281
Oui. On parlait de message
bilingue, et évidemment, vous avez des abonnés francophones, vous avez des
abonnés anglophones.
3282
Êtes-vous en mesure d'envoyer un message en français à tous vos abonnés
francophones et un message en anglais à tous vos... il y a plusieurs
permutations possibles.
3283
C'est-à-dire que vous savez que cet abonné-là est un abonné
francophone. Donc, même si, au
moment où la bande défilante passe, il est à l'écoute d'une station de langue
anglaise, il aura le message en français, ou si c'est la réciproque,
c'est-à-dire c'est quelqu'un qui essaie de devenir bilingue et qui écoute une
station francophone?
3284
Parce que les statistiques montrent qu'ils n'écoutent pas beaucoup, sauf
pendant qu'ils sont dans des cours d'immersion.
--- Rires /
Laughter
3285
M. SAUVÉ : Ou pendant les séries du hockey avec les Canadiens, tant
qu'ils ne sont pas éliminés.
3286
Je vous dirais que je pense que, sur la base de ce qu'on a dit tout à
l'heure au départ sur le fait que je pense que le système ne doit pas utiliser
de façon inappropriée, donc, de façon contrôlée, moi, je pense que l'important,
c'est d'avoir un système qui est efficace et qui est le moins coûteux
possible.
3287
Je pense que s'il y a vraiment un message d'urgence important à passer,
que le message arrive bilingue, avec la version française en premier, la version
anglaise, je pense que l'important, il y a une urgence, donc, je pense que ce
qui est important, c'est de passer la communication le plus
rapidement.
3288
Si le fait de vouloir l'isoler, dire, O.K., je veux que sur un canal
anglais, on a un message en anglais, et que sur le canal français, on a un
message en français, moi, je pense qu'on va complexifier encore plus tout
ça. Donc, ça risque de coûter
encore plus cher, tout en augmentant le risque qu'il y a en arrière de
ça.
3289
Donc, moi, je pense qu'on devrait garder ça... monsieur Péladeau avait
tendance à dire KISS, Keep It Simple and... Je pense que, dans ce cas-là, si on
parle de message d'urgence, donc, on pense qu'on devrait se concentrer à dire
passons le message le plus rapidement possible. Si c'est plus simple de le faire
bilingue d'un coup sur tous les canaux en même temps, je pense que c'est
l'approche qu'on devrait prendre.
3290
LE PRÉSIDENT : On nous a aussi parlé de la problématique sur les canaux à
demande. Est-ce que ça serait vrai
aussi chez Vidéotron?
3291
M. PROULX : Il y a des enjeux technologiques à résoudre. C'est une question d'intégration. Quand on développe nos applications
interactives ou sur demande, on ne tient pas compte aujourd'hui d'un éventuel
système d'alerte, puis les systèmes ne sont pas développés en tenant compte de
cette réalité-là,
3292
Si on devait mettre en place ce système d'alerte là, on devra en tenir
compte dans nos développements, puis intégrer avec nos fournisseurs une solution
qui, comme Rogers a dit, s'assure que le service est, mettons, vidéo sur
demande, que la session qui va être interrompue soit, soit bien récupérée ou
qu'elle se termine correctement.
3293
Mais aujourd'hui, on ne tient pas compte d'un éventuel système d'alerte
dans nos développements.
3294
M. TRÉPANIER : Si vous permettez, Monsieur le Président, j'ajouterais que
n'étant pas technologue et observant ce qui se passe dans la vraie vie, quand on
reçoit généralement un logiciel d'une entreprise avec laquelle on fait affaire,
le logiciel ne fonctionne pas bien, puis on fait une liste de choses qui ne
fonctionnent pas, on le test pendant des semaines, on le retourne, ça revient,
ça ne fonctionne pas encore tout à fait bien, et avant que ça soit en
production, il se passe plusieurs mois généralement.
3295
LE PRÉSIDENT : Donc, il y a une période qui permettrait peut-être de
faire les ajustements nécessaires, et qui permettrait de résoudre ces
problèmes-là.
3296
Je sais que les gens de Rogers, ce matin, disaient que ça serait des
interventions tripartites, parce qu'il faudrait que les fabricants de logiciel
des services de vidéo sur demande se concertent aussi pour faire fonctionner ces
systèmes-là.
3297
M. PROULX : Dans notre cas, ça serait plus que ça. Nos nouveaux clients VSD vont être
supportés par deux compagnies. On a
une compagnie qui fournit la plate-forme de vidéo sur demande; il y a Scientific
Atlanta qui fournit à quatre ou cinq parties.
3298
Ça fait que ça ajoute un niveau de complexité, mais je ne crois pas que
c'est quelque chose qui est...
3299
LE PRÉSIDENT : Si je comprends bien, quand vous dites 2008, on est
peut-être rendu à 2009?
3300
M. TRÉPANIER : C'était un peu le message.
3301
LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous avez, évidemment, soulevé la question du tarif
demandé par Pelmorex, et dans sa réplique, Pelmorex nous a dit qu'il était
disposé, dans un environnement uniquement numérique, à considérer une réduction
du tarif par abonné demandée.
3302
Avez-vous des commentaires supplémentaires à fournir à cet égard, ou si
la réponse de Pelmorex vous satisfaisait?
3303
M. TRÉPANIER : Lorsqu'on parle d'analogique, on parle souvent de pièces
en terme matériel, de pièces physiques, et lorsqu'on parle de distribution
numérique, on parle logiciel généralement.
Donc, c'est normal et tout à fait souhaitable qu'il y ait une diminution
du tarif si le Conseil décider d'obliger la distribution en numérique
seulement.
3304
J'ajouterais que, comme nous le recommandons, qu'il y ait une
comptabilité séparée du service de programmation, et de cette façon-là, le
Conseil puisse s'assurer que seules les dépenses qui visent à offrir un service
d'alerte de qualité soient acceptables dans le tarif que Pelmorex pourrait
exiger de notre part.
3305
M. SAUVÉ : Si je peux ajouter, il reste qu'on requestionne quand même le
fait que... on pense que la sécurité publique est une activité publique du
ressort des gouvernements.
3306
Même, puis je ne veux pas mêler personne, mais même, je pense que
Radio-Canada dans son intervention disait que pour sa partie qu'ils veulent
développer, en autant qu'ils aient les fonds pour le
faire.
3307
Je trouve ça un peu spécial qu'on dise, O.K., cette partie-là, vous la
développer avec les fonds publics, mais une fois rendu chez le distributeur, ça
deviendrait des fonds privés ou les consommateurs en bout de ligne qui
défraieraient.
3308
Donc, là-dessus, on continue à penser... on pense que c'est, avant tout,
une question de sécurité publique.
Donc, on pense que ça devrait être, avant tout, l'argent public que
l'argent privé qui finance ce projet-là.
3309
LE PRÉSIDENT : Cependant, il y en a qui ont fait la remarque ce matin,
notamment, que... Je pense, par
exemple, aux représentants de l'Armée du Salut qui disaient que ce n'est pas
différent des systèmes de télécommunication 9-1-1, où c'est les consommateurs
qui en assument, finalement, le coût, et que c'est raisonnable dans une société
démocratique qu'on paie pour notre propre sécurité.
3310
M. SAUVÉ : Je pense que c'est l'ensemble de tout ça qu'il faut prendre en
considération, mais à ce moment-là, il faut s'assurer que ce qui est chargé aux
consommateurs touche vraiment uniquement cet aspect-là, puis qu'il n'y a pas de
prise de profit à l'intérieur de ça.
Je pense que c'est l'assurance qu'on doit, tout le monde,
avoir.
3311
LE PRÉSIDENT : Même pas un profit raisonnable?
3312
M. TRÉPANIER : Si vous permettez, je ne voudrais pas contredire mon
collègue, mais si le gouvernement canadien décidait que les citoyens canadiens
devraient être en mesure de recevoir les alertes pertinentes et adéquates, sans
autre exigence financière que les impôts que l'on paie, je pense que ça serait
la meilleure solution.
3313
Si le gouvernement canadien requérait des entreprises privés de
participer pour qu'on y arrive, je pense qu'un entreprise privée est là pour
faire un profit raisonnable, et je trouve tout à fait correct, évidemment, dans
une comptabilité supervisée, qu'il y ait
profit.
3314
LE PRÉSIDENT : Dans votre mémoire écrit, vous êtes intervenu sous le nom
de Québécor Média et aux noms de SUN TV, de Groupe TVA, ainsi que de
Vidéotron. Dans votre présentation
orale d'aujourd'hui, vous vous limitez à l'intervention de
Vidéotron.
3315
Est-ce que le Conseil doit comprendre que TVA et SUN TV n'ont pas de
préoccupation par rapport au service proposé par Pelmorex ou Radio-Canada ou
Bell ExpressVu?
3316
M. TRÉPANIER : TVA et SUN TV ont une préoccupation très importante qui a
fait partie de notre intervention écrite et aussi de l'une de... en fait, de
notre recommandation numéro 3, que la chaîne dont la programmation est altérée
ne soit pas responsable du contenu diffusé par un message d'alerte ou de son bon
fonctionnement.
3317
C'est très important que... parce qu'on a parlé beaucoup de questions de
responsabilité juridique, et c'est très important, en fait, et je pense que le
chef des services de sécurité de Mississauga l'a dit, que l'entreprise de
programmation soit dégagée de toute
responsabilité.
3318
Même si, sous la Loi de la radiodiffusion, elle l'est, si le Conseil
désigne dans une ordonnance que, dans ces cas-là en particulier, il n'y a pas de
responsabilité, en fait, c'est très important de le faire.
3319
Et si en plus, et ce n'est jamais ce qu'on souhaite comme entreprise
privée, mais si en plus, le Conseil décidait d'imposer la distribution d'un
service d'alerte, sans me substituer à un juriste, je pense que ce serait assez
facile de défendre qu'il n'y a pas de responsabilité civile de la part des
chaînes de programmation.
3320
LE PRÉSIDENT : Ça complète mes questions, mais notre procureur en aurait
quelques‑unes, au moins une en tout cas, pour vous.
3321
Me McCALLUM : Oui. C'est,
notamment, sur ce point 3 de la page 8 de votre présentation écrite de cet
après-midi. Je décrirais ça comme
une mainlevée de responsabilité.
3322
En suggérant ça au Conseil, vous êtes-vous inspiré d'un modèle qui
prévoit quelque chose de similaire?
3323
M. TRÉPANIER : Non, Maître McCallum. On a simplement... j'ai simplement crû
que, dans le cadre de la rédaction d'une ordonnance, il était possible au
Conseil d'expliquer que le service de programmation de radiodiffusion n'avait
pas la responsabilité du contenu pendant le message
d'alerte.
3324
Maintenant, j'ai aussi entendu des discussions concernant les réseaux, et
je suis sensible au fait qu'il existe probablement une problématique de
délégation dans ce cas-ci vers le haut, c'est-à-dire vers la
source.
3325
Et effectivement, est-ce qu'un organisme public peut détenir une licence,
et est‑ce que la Loi de la radiodiffusion peut suffire à régler cette
question-là de façon nette et claire, je n'en suis pas certain, je ne le sais
pas.
3326
Me McCALLUM : Donc, vous n'êtes pas au courant si une autre entité comme
le Federal Communications Commission ou une autre entité qui a pris des
responsabilités sur les alertes aurait émis une ordonnance ou un avis public
avec une disposition semblable?
3327
M. TRÉPANIER : C'est exact, je ne suis pas au courant d'une telle
chose.
3328
Me McCALLUM : Donc, vous n'avez aucune opinion si une intervention
législative serait nécessaire pour que le Conseil donne une exemption de
responsabilité?
3329
M. TRÉPANIER : Non. Je pense
qu'il s'agit d'un beau défi pour un juriste, mais je ne pourrais pas prendre une
position là-dessus.
3330
Me McCALLUM : Merci.
3331
Merci, Monsieur le Président.
3332
LE PRÉSIDENT : Messieurs Sauvé, Trépanier et Proulx,
merci.
3333
M. TRÉPANIER : Merci.
3334
LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame la Secrétaire, nous passons à l'intervenante
suivante.
3335
LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci, Monsieur le Président.
3336
I would now call the next intervenor, Telco TV, to come
forward.
3337
Miss Mainville-Neeson, you have 10 minutes for your presentation. You may want to introduce your
colleague. Thank
you.
INTERVENTION
3338
MS MAINVILLE-NEESON: Good
afternoon. My name is Ann
Mainville-Neeson and I am Senior Regulatory Legal Counsel at TELUS. With me is Jenny Crowe, Counsel,
Regulatory Affairs, at MTS Allstream.
We are here on behalf of Telco Television Association of
Canada.
3339
Telco TV represents the broadcasting interests of MTS Allstream,
Saskatchewan Telecommunications, otherwise known as SaskTel, and TELUS, all of
which are new entrants in the broadcasting distribution industry and all operate
on a full digital basis.
3340
Les commentaires de Telco Télé portent généralement sur l'élaboration et
la distribution d'un système d'alerte tous canaux en cas d'urgence.
3341
Telco TV urges the Commission to be technologically neutral in its
decision regarding the applications by Pelmorex, CBC and Bell ExpressVu by not
mandating the use of a specific technology for offering an all-channel emergency
alerting system.
3342
Fundamentally, all the applicants propose to offer the same service,
namely, an all‑channel emergency alerting messaging system but each proposes to
do so using different technology.
3343
Pelmorex is the only applicant which is requesting mandatory carriage of
its service by all BDUs. Pelmorex
submits that it has extensively studied the networks of BDUs and it believes
that its proposed service can function on all different types of network
configurations and distribution technologies.
3344
With all due respect to Pelmorex in its research and trials, Telco TV
submits that the delivery of an all-channel emergency alerting service, a
service that must be tightly integrated into the distribution network, is best
left in the hands of the broadcasting distribution undertakings, the
BDUs.
3345
Pelmorex is proposing the forced integration of its proprietary
technology into the networks of all BDUs.
If the Commission were to approve Pelmorex's application, the ability of
BDUs to upgrade their systems or introduce new features would be hindered
because they would likely need to consult with Pelmorex to ensure that these
upgrades and new features are compatible with Pelmorex's proprietary
system.
3346
The use of proprietary technology means that BDUs would not be able to
easily find a work-around solution where there is
incompatibility.
3347
Accordingly, by granting mandatory carriage of Pelmorex's proprietary
service, the Commission will be granting to Pelmorex a degree of control over
the BDUs' networks. In the fully
digital IP-based distribution environment where network evolution is fast-paced,
delays caused by a third party's proprietary solution would be
untenable.
3348
Telco TV members do not consider that Pelmorex's offer to sit on its
technical committee is a sufficient compensation for any loss of control over
its network.
3349
It is also important to note that Pelmorex is seeking to implement a
one-size-fits-all solution, whereas there are many different types of
distribution technologies and configurations of distribution networks in
Canada.
3350
Particularly relevant in this respect is the fact that Pelmorex's
proposed system is not even digital-centric, rather it is anchored in old analog
distribution technology.
3351
While Pelmorex seems to have adapted their proposed service to work in a
digital environment, the service doesn't take advantage of the full capabilities
of digital distribution.
3352
For example, the focus of Pelmorex's proposed service is on the headend
of the BDU and it seems to entirely neglect the fact that digital operators can
also control what goes on in the set-top box.
3353
Focusing on the set-top box rather than on the headend would allow for
more discrete targeting of emergency messages. It would also allow two-way
communication to verify that the message has been
received.
3354
Telco TV further submits that Pelmorex's focus on the headend is not only
inefficient for its IP-based members, it is also problematic for at least two of
its members which make use of a super headend, that is to say a single headend
for numerous serving areas.
3355
Accordingly, for these BDUs, implementing Pelmorex's system without any
modifications would result in, for example, an emergency message targeted to a
small town or area in Alberta being distributed across the province.
3356
Telco Télé réitère que les entreprises de distribution de radiodiffusion,
les EDR, sont les meilleurs joueurs dans la chaîne de radiodiffusion pour
établir et mettre en place un service d'alerte tous canaux en cas
d'urgence.
3357
Les EDR qui offrent un service de télévision sur une plate-forme IP,
telles que les membres de Telco Télé, seraient capables de configurer un système
qui serait moins coûteux et plus efficace que le système proposé par
Pelmorex.
3358
Telco TV submits that the Commission should not grant mandatory carriage
rights if it chooses to approve any of the applications for an all-channel
emergency alerting service.
3359
Telco TV submits that BDUs should be entitled to choice in implementing
an all‑channel emergency alerting service.
BDUs know their network best and can make the most informed decision on
what would work best for them whether it be a service such as that proposed by
Pelmorex or the CBC or a tailor-made solution such as was proposed by Bell
ExpressVu.
3360
Telco TV submits that all that would be needed for the BDUs to be able to
implement an all-channel emergency alerting service is an amendment to section
7(d) of the Broadcasting Distribution Regulations.
3361
Telco TV suggests that regardless of whether the Commission decides to
approve any of the current applications, it should undertake an amendment to the
Regulations.
3362
Section 7(d) currently prohibits a BDU from altering a programming
service to insert an alert message without the permission of the operator or a
network responsible for the service.
3363
This requirement for consent cannot remain if any all channel emergency
alerting service is ever to be introduced.
It is impracticable for BDUs to be expected to obtain consent of each
programming service it distributes for the insertion of an emergency
message.
3364
Public emergency alerting should not be subjected to
negotiation.
3365
Telco TV further submits that arguably even if the Commission were to
approve Pelmorex's application, this section of the distribution regulations
would still need to be amended, because contrary to what Pelmorex stated in its
responses to questioning yesterday, this is not in any way similar to licencing
a multi‑channel service such as a VOD service.
3366
An all channel emergency service is by its very nature interrupts the
service of other programming services.
3367
Authorizing a programming undertaking to offer such a service does not
provide the necessary authority for a BDU to alter or delete the signal of the
other programming services they distribute.
3368
Telco TV sports the amendment of the regulations proposed by the CBC,
namely that the provision be amended to read as
follows:
"a licensee shall
not alter or delete a programming service in a licenced area in the course of
its distribution except for the purpose of transmitting an authorized emergency
public alert message."
3369
I thank you for the opportunity to provide comments on behalf of Telco
Television Association. Thank
you.
3370
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
very much. Commissioner del
Val?
3371
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you for the intervention.
3372
I just would like you to back to the part of your presentation right
before ‑‑ I think it is probably your final paragraph where you are talking
about this 7(d) and where you were talking about the programming service
on ‑‑ I didn't quite understand what you were ‑‑ the point you were
making.
3373
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: Well,
the point we are trying to make is that licencing a service and giving it, for
example, mandatory carriage doesn't by that fact enable the BDU to alter or
curtail the signal.
3374
Just because you licence a programming service to do something, doesn't
mean ‑‑ it is not like what Pelmorex indicated yesterday, that it is just
like licencing any multi‑channel television
service.
3375
A VOD service has multi‑channels, but they are all their own discrete
channels. It is not on top of other
services.
3376
COMMISSIONER del VAL: And
therefore you support the 7(d) amendment.
3377
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: Yes, we
do.
3378
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay. Now, so that is one
point of clarification I needed from your written intervention, because you
started off with saying in your summary and then you repeat and you are quite
consistent in your written submission that approval of these applications, like
all three, may be premature.
3379
So can I ‑‑ should I read that to mean that if ‑‑ everything
would be premature except for the 7(d) amendment requested by
CBC?
3380
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: Well,
you ‑‑ I guess knowing how long it takes to amend regulations, it might be
prudent for the Commission to start that process.
3381
I have no doubts that we will end up in Canada with a full ‑‑ some
type of all channel emergency alerting service, as part of a whole larger
context of public alerting, using cell phones, using all kinds of different
platforms.
3382
So starting that process is in fact warranted, while approving the
applications, we think might be premature, simply because the CANALERT ‑‑
it is still unclear where public authorities will go to ‑‑ and if we
support, as we do, the choice in selecting which service we might take or
creating our very own service to offer alert messages, we don't think that it
is ‑‑ that it's appropriate to move forward before the government has
actually ‑‑ the Federal Government has implemented something that is
practical.
3383
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay. I'll just ask this
more directly.
3384
Do you feel that the amendment of 7(d) is premature, given all of the
submissions that you have heard over the past two days?
3385
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: No, I
believe the Commission can start with that.
3386
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Now,
Telco TV, although, you know, MTS, Telus and SaskTel, although not
insignificant, it is still a relatively small part of the BDU
system.
3387
What if someone said in response to what you are ‑‑ to your
proposal, something along the lines, I think, of what the municipalities were
saying, that you cannot wait until there is perfection before you roll out, so
you cannot take the view that we cannot save all lives therefore don't save even
a few.
3388
Now, what do you ‑‑ what would you say to that? Are you asking that no action be taken
until the technology has been perfect, until every single BDU large or small can
also roll out the system?
3389
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: No, no,
absolutely not. And our basis for
suggesting that it is premature, has nothing to do with technology. We could do so right away. We are IP‑based. I think things are ‑‑ our point is
that things can be done in a technology environment that don't require solutions
such as Pelmorex's.
3390
If the Commission thought that it was prudent to move forward right away
and expected us to roll out such a service we would certainly do so, you know,
immediately.
3391
Our concern is without the databases created by ‑‑ and the central
organization to distribute the messages, the content of the messages, that is
where our concern is.
3392
And so if the Commission were to licence, for example, CBC and Pelmorex
and any service that might come out to offer such a service, we would then pick
one of those perhaps to ‑‑ or sign up on whatever database to receive
directly the messages from the authorized agencies.
3393
MS CROWE: I just have
something to add. Part of the
prematurity I think is right now under section 7(d) we can't effectively offer a
service anyway. It just is
impractical to obtain the consent of all programmers out there, including, you
know foreign programmers to alter their signal.
3394
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank
you. By the way, your oral
submission today has answered quite of few of the questions that I have, so this
will be much shorter.
3395
But now of ... does it make ‑‑ if some point down the road there was
the broadcast ‑‑ broadcasters and BDUs were mandated to participate in the
national alert system, do you think that mandate, that order, should come from
legislation, from the government, or from an agency such as ours ‑‑ such as
the CRTC?
3396
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: I would
certainly hope that it would be a concerted effort, so perhaps the direction
might come from federal legislation and put into the policy from the
Commission.
3397
Whether it is one or the other, I think makes very little difference to
the Telco TV members.
3398
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay. On the issue of
mandated service, I'm looking at paragraph 26 on page 10 of your written
submission and you are talking about how it is not necessary to mandate and that
it may prove ultimately unwarranted.
Currently what is needed is a commitment on the part of the broadcasting
industry and ... and a commitment to participate in the system when it is in
place.
3399
Now, so if you agree that a commitment is in order, is warranted, why
can't we have the commitment carved in stone and have it
mandated?
3400
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: Simply
because it's unnecessary. We are
not opposed to mandating that the service be offered. We are opposed to having a specific
technology being forced upon us.
3401
But I do think that the Commission should really seriously consider
whether it is necessary. Why
mandate something that will be done?
I think all BDUs have every incentive to implement something and
something that right now they can't, they are legally restricted from
implementing, so we don't even know if there would be ‑‑ you haven't even
tested if there is any will out there to have the implementation ‑‑ to have
the service implemented voluntarily and I think that once you remove that
restriction you might find that in fact BDUs will right away step up to the
plate and offer the service.
3402
We have every incentive to do so.
We care about our subscribers.
We are good corporate citizens.
There is every incentive to do so, so I think that it would just be
overkill to mandate.
3403
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Then
on the ‑‑ I wasn't clear whether in the first part of your oral
presentation today that there is a suggestion that say we licenced ‑‑
approved Pelmorex's application, that the result would be ‑‑ that we are
imposing a certain technology on the system. Is that correct?
3404
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: Well,
that is if you approve Pelmorex's application in its entirety, including the
mandatory distribution, because if you're doing that, obviously there is no
place for CBC, because there is no way that you would offer both
services.
3405
So if we are forced to carry Pelmorex's our concern there is that
effectively they are offering a technological solution. They are not simply offering a service
that then we can take, adapt it to our own distribution network, which
is ‑‑ each distribution network is very different. Even amongst the Telco TV members, we
have ‑‑ we use different technologies, we would implement such a solution,
differently.
3406
So to have one company, one which is really not an expert in distribution
technology, to come in with their own boxes and to attach that to our networks
is ‑‑ is a bit scary. We are
concerned that we test every bit of equipment that goes onto our networks and
here we would be having to rely on equipment supplied by Pelmorex and forced to
consult with them any time we want to make any changes.
3407
COMMISSIONER del VAL: And
that goes to the fact that the technology that Pelmorex is proposing to use is
proprietary? Is
that ‑‑
3408
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: Well,
it goes ‑‑ certainly that is a huge component, but even if they went with
open source, the problem with that ‑‑ with their proposal is that it is a
full service solution, one that is totally unnecessary for a distribution
network.
3409
So for BDUs, distribution technology, that is our business. And so they are proposing to take
control of part of our business and operate this little part of our network and
that is something that ‑‑ that loss of control is something that would be
untenable to the Telco TV members.
3410
COMMISSIONER del VAL: I just
want to clarify that you are advocating for the BDUs both the freedom to choose
which service and technology and the freedom to participate, those being two
things, right?
3411
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: That's
correct. Although, as indicated,
certainly there is so many incentives for us to participate that ... we
certainly would.
3412
COMMISSIONER del VAL: I'm
not sure whether you were here when we talked about the three models of the
forms of alert: Model 1, I call it,
is the pop‑up message telling subscribers to tune to a particular channel; the
second one is automatically switching all of the boxes to a channel that
contains the alert; and the third is the pop‑up screen.
3413
From the Telco TV technology, from that perspective, what do you see are
the advantages and disadvantages of each of those three models and the cost
implications?
3414
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON:
Okay. It would appear at
this point based on our middleware that simply a crawl at the bottom of the
screen would be the least expensive solution.
3415
Having heard a lot of interventions, you know, today and the submissions
yesterday, that may not be sufficient for alerting our members of the public and
so we may be looking at a different solution, either a forced tune to a large
full‑screen announcement, perhaps bilingual, perhaps ‑‑ and I ... I've
certainly taken note of the problems with having solutions, you know, tuning to
an English message on an English channel, French message on a French
channel.
3416
I'm very concerned with what we would do in cases of third
languages. And so perhaps a simple
bilingual message might be the best.
These are all things we would have to investigate.
3417
All solutions, I believe, would be possible. The least expensive would be that
crawl. Equally as inexpensive would
be the forced tune. That can easily
be done through our set‑top boxes, which means moving to another channel, which
would have that full‑screen alert message.
3418
And the pop‑up box, I think, would be probably the most expensive and I
think it is geared a lot more to the DTH system. I haven't investigated that with our
engineers.
3419
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay. What about ‑‑
sorry, did you want to add anything?
3420
What about VOD? Were you
here when the Rogers panel was talking about it? Do you have any problems with your
system, would you have any?
3421
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: We
would probably encounter similar problems if we go with the forced tune. If we go with the crawl at the bottom of
the screen, that would not create any problems with VOD.
3422
If we were forced in the scenario where the Commission were to issue a
decision in the very near future we might start with that solution as being the
easiest, namely just inserting that crawl and then look at different options
later on, but certainly a forced tune where we change the channel, that would
disrupt our VOD service.
3423
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Then
going back, jumping back to the voluntary issue, if the BDUs distribute
emergency alert messages on a voluntary basis, as an example what ExpressVu
suggested, who in your opinion would be responsible for these
messages?
3424
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: For the
content of the messages?
3425
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Yes.
3426
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: We
assume would be those authorities, the authorities who provide us with the
content of the message.
3427
We would be acting simply as a distribution undertaking. We pass through that message. And so we believe that it should be the
issuing authority.
3428
COMMISSIONER del VAL: And
then ‑‑ and who would be responsible for the correct transmission of the
messages?
3429
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: The
correct transmission, any transmission problems, if it originates in our
networks, we likely would be responsible for.
3430
Now, would we be ‑‑ have any actual legal liability, that would all
depend on whether or not we were negligent generally. Is it a problem with our systems? Is there any other recourse with the
manufacturer of the ‑‑ whatever equipment we are using? So then it becomes a tort law, finding
out who is the negligent party, if anyone.
3431
COMMISSIONER del VAL: We may
have covered part of it.
3432
If the ‑‑ if an alert system was mandated, what do you see right
away would be your implementation problems and what could you do to forestall
them?
3433
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON:
Mandated as in we can choose whatever solution
or ‑‑
3434
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
No. If, say, Pelmorex were
approved.
3435
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: Well,
if Pelmorex were approved, then we would have a lot of problems. Namely, that that super head end problem
would be there.
3436
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay.
3437
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: We
would have to go and fix that, which means that essentially we are implementing
our own solution, but paying Pelmorex to offer what service we are not exactly
sure.
3438
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay.
3439
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: So, you
know, it can be done. That is the
advantage of a digital ‑‑ fully digital network. There is a lot of advantages
there.
3440
But if you approve Pelmorex then we end up paying for something that we
can do ourselves more cheaply and more effectively. Not only that we'll have to do
ourselves, because their system will not be compatible with our super head end
configuration.
3441
COMMISSIONER del VAL:
Okay. And it is based on
the ‑‑ on Pelmorex's answer to the deficiency question on ‑‑ question
9, when they were asked how the proposed ACA technology would apply to the VDSL
technology and I think your comment in the intervention was very little
information was provided and it is based on that
information.
3442
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: It is
based on that information and the fact that they haven't consulted us on ‑‑
you know, had we been consulted we might have, you know, told them about this
super head end configuration that everything that they have goes to the head end
and that doesn't work for our systems, for two of our member
systems.
3443
COMMISSIONER del VAL: If,
say, the BDUs, including yourselves, were mandated to just provide this service,
but you could choose whatever technology you wanted, what would then be your
implementation problems?
3444
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON:
None.
3445
COMMISSIONER del VAL: If
Pelmorex's application were granted, what in your view should be the monthly
subscriber rate?
3446
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: I'm not
sure if we should comment on that.
We really believe that for our service we are not getting any value added
from Pelmorex offering the service.
We could do so much more cost efficiently, many of which would be
one‑time costs so, you know, we are virtually offering this at a no cost or very
very low cost system, you know, basis.
3447
COMMISSIONER del VAL: One more question on if Pelmorex were
successful. I know I am trying your
patience, but if they was successful and a mandatory carriage was also
successful can you offer any views whether we should go by way of making that
portion of the service a 91(h) service or should we be amending the distribution
and linkage rules or how would we implement that?
3448
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: Prefacing with the fact that we really prefer if you
didn't go that route. If you were
to mandate to approve Pelmorex's application in its entirety, so mandating
carriage and the increase in fees, should it be a 91H or distribution in
linkage? Well I think we really
don't have an opinion on that, neither one of which is in our interest. And more importantly, I would like to
reiterate that it still requires an amendment to the distribution regulations
even if it is mandated as a 91H or through the distribution and linkage rules,
we still can't offer that service if it is altering and curtailing the other
programming services that we offer.
3449
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank you.
Yesterday CBC also came before us, so theirs is not a license
application. But they did talk
about perhaps offering their service to BDUs in the same way that Pelmorex would
offer their technology for the BDUs.
3450
Now, if CBC offered you that service and, for example, we have a choice
of suppliers, do you see any difficulties with the technology that CBC is
proposing, namely the EAS technology?
3451
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: No, on a technology basis we see no problem in
implementing the CBC's proposal. And in fact, if the Commission were to require
us to offer an emergency alert service, you know, in the very near term before
CANALERT, before there is any other type of centralized database where we could
get information directly from authorities, then we may very well go with the
CBC's service in order to have one stop shop to get the information that we
need.
3452
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay, thank you. Now do you have any proposals besides
the CBC's for wording to amend section 7(d) of the
regs?
3453
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: We really think that the CBC's proposal is
sufficient and would likely work very well. I understand there's been some questions
on whether certain terms should be defined. I think those terms will be defined
through the CANALERT initiative, so I think we are satisfied with what CBC has
proposed.
3454
COMMISSIONER del VAL: And given what the panel of CHUM ‑‑ the
broadcasters have to say, do you have any refinements to
propose?
3455
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: Well, certainly we believe that local broadcasters
have a lot to offer. And what we
are talking about here is a very simple and concise message that will be
distributed across all channels. It
does not in anyway replace what local broadcasters have to offer in an emergency
situation. I would imagine that
most people, if they were watching a speciality service or a foreign service,
got one of those alert messages the first thing they will do is turn to the
local station.
3456
And so, to me, one is not incompatible with the other. I think that we need local broadcasters
to continue to provide that up‑to‑date information and broader information and
the information that we need in those situations. But we also need to recognize that we
are not always watching the local broadcaster when an emergency occurs. There is, you know, in the 500 or more
channel universe there is good odds that a lot of subscribers are not watching
their local broadcaster.
3457
So we believe that both are very compatible. And while there is certainly an
alteration of the signal and to the extent that the broadcaster might be
responsible for what is being displayed on their channel I think that emergency
message then becomes or the content of that message becomes the responsibility
of the issuing authority, not the broadcasters, whoever it might be, specialty
service or the foreign service they might be watching. It becomes the responsibility of the
issuing authority. And then the
local broadcaster has its place once everybody tunes into them to get more
information.
3458
So any refinements I think that it is a question of working
together. I can understand the
concern that local broadcasters have that this message appear to be coming from
them and if there is anything that we can do we will definitely work with them
to make sure that the message doesn't appear to come from them. You know, any thoughts on that would
definitely be welcomed and we would work with them to address that
concern.
3459
COMMISSIONER del VAL: There are also submissions to the effect that the
Commission should decline to consider these ‑‑ applications of this nature,
because that is not within our area of expertise. However, on the other side of the coin
is that it is the Commission that administers the Broadcasting Act and these
messages are being disseminated through the broadcasting system. So without the Commission's involvement,
how would you see sort of the different emergency organizations ensure the
broadcast and distribution of the alerts?
Can you see that done without the Commission's
involvement?
3460
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: Well, I think that the ‑‑ to your first point,
I think the Commission does have expertise over any broadcasting service and to
the extent that this is disrupting both a broadcasting distribution undertaking
to the extent that we are being forced to do something with our network and it
is disrupting programming services, I think the Commission has expertise on that
and can impose some rules on how this might be done. We are certainly hopeful that you will
allow a lot of flexibility so that we can continue to operate our broadcasting
system in the most efficient manner.
3461
As for the content of the messages and the threshold required for what
messages should be issued, that of course is perhaps not the expertise of the
Commission, but that is the federal government and other authorities that will
be looking into that. But once that
is established and we have a message, an alert message that needs to be
distributed, how that is done I believe is when it goes through the broadcasting
system is very much within the Commission's expertise.
3462
MS CROWE: And of course,
like we have said before, in order to enable BDUs to deliver any alert service
there would need to be amendments to section 7(d) of the regulations and so the
Commission's involvement would be necessary to that
extent.
3463
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: And maybe to add as well, I was very intrigued by
what Rogers suggested about the Telecom Act and, you know, perhaps the use of
the limitation of liability provision in that act might be useful here. But that was something new brought in
today that I haven't fully researched.
3464
COMMISSIONER del VAL: What would you do to minimize the Commission's
involvement? Like, what is the
least amount of involvement you could see of the
Commission?
3465
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: The simple amendment to 7(d) of the regulations I
think would be the minimal and the one that has the most impact. I do take the point that issuing an
expectation might be warranted so that BDUs know to ask, know that it is not
just a permission. But if they are
not aware of the trends in society towards wanting this kind of system to be put
in place, perhaps the Commission could remind the industry that that would be
warranted. But I think, at a
minimum, all that is needed is an amendment to 7(d) of the
regulations.
3466
If you take away the impediment I think the natural forces, the
incentives that are out there for us to offer this very important service I
think are there. So I think that is
the answer to your question.
3467
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank you, you have been very helpful. Those are my questions, Mr. Chair, thank
you.
3468
THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Pennefather.
3469
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I think we are close to getting to my
question. I just wanted to
follow‑up on that last conversation.
Did I hear you say that short of a mandatory order saying you must carry
the messages as received from a source for the time ‑‑ just for the point
of discussion, the Commission could also require that certain things be
done. What certain things did you
mean?
3470
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: Well no, I was only following up on the discussion
with Rogers and Mr. Englehart where he was being prodded by legal counsel here
as to whether or not anything else needed to be done by the Commission other
than amending the regulations. And
we might expect that in amending the regulations in the way that we are seeking,
you might also issue a policy notice that you expect the industry to move in a
certain way. But perhaps simply
amending the regulations, at least offering us the ability to offer the service
the incentives are there I believe socially for us to want to move further. If you wanted us to move on this faster,
you might issue a policy notice with an expectation.
3471
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Working backwards to the concerns expressed by
representatives from the various emergency organizations, from the public in
terms of consistency, accuracy, predictability, working backwards from there you
are asking for flexibility, saying we will do it, it serves our interest to do
it, we will do it as we wish. In
what sense would we be assured that expecting you would be enough as opposed to
making sure ‑‑ as opposed to, for example, the advantage of a third party
being able to assure us that the protocols and guidelines attached to messages
were coming right through down the line?
3472
You said at the beginning, I believe, the public alerting should not be
subject to negotiation. So how far
do the hands‑off go?
3473
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: The negotiation is with respect to programmers. Right now, as the regulations stand, for
us to go and get permission from each and every programmer it is just highly
impractical that that is, you know, in a 500 channel universe that just isn't
going to work very well.
3474
But what we are suggesting is if you then change those regulations to
make it possible for us to offer the service, so take away that requirement for
consent and that opens up the door for us to be able to offer the service. I think you will see that we will offer
the service without you requiring it of BDUs.
3475
Now, when we say that we want flexibility, it is not flexibility in
offering the service at all, it is flexibility in how we do so. We don't believe that the application by
Pelmorex that is on the table now is in anyway more efficient or more cost
efficient and adaptable to our systems.
So we want flexibility in choosing how we are going to offer it, whether
it be using the CBC, maybe using an adapted Pelmorex version, but we don't want
to be forced in using any specific technology. And we also don't believe that it
is necessary for you to mandate us to offer any type of service, because the
incentives are there for us to do it.
3476
Certainly, you know, numerous times the Commission will issue
expectations that can be reviewed upon license renewals if you are looking for a
hook on which you can have someone responsible to ensure that what you are
asking to be done is in fact done.
Issuing an expectation that is then reviewed at license renewal, for
example, is certainly a less intrusive way than putting in a requirement in the
regulations or other mandatory order.
3477
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Okay, one more then. Backing up through the system, if we say
to the BDUs you can (a) choose, or not, to issue is alert; and you can (b)
choose, or not, the technology you want; and you can (c) choose, or not, to
deliver that message along guidelines provided by CANALERT with whom you will
have no formal connection, how can the public be assured of consistent clear
accurate messages?
3478
MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON: I believe that once the CANALERT system is in place
that that will be where BDUs gravitate for their information. You know, they are in the process of
elaborating guidelines with the proper consistency and how they believe that
messages should be displayed and there likely will be a lot of consistency in
how BDUs will want to use the system.
3479
Now, how can you be ensured ‑‑ again, it can be part of the
expectation that we would follow a certain model. I don't purport to know at this point
what is the perfect model, should it be ‑‑ you know, does it need to be on
a red screen, does it need to be preceded by these little buzzing sounds, that I
don't know and I would expect that experts dealing with such public emergencies
would tell us.
3480
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you. Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
3481
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mrs. Pennefather. Mrs. Mainville‑Neeson and your
colleague, thank you very much.
3482
Mrs. Secretary, we will move to the next
intervener.
3483
THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would now call on the next
intervener, which is CKUA, Mr. Ken Regan and Mr. Kris Rodts, please. Gentlemen, you have 10 minutes for your
presentation, thank you.
INTERVENTION
3484
MR. REGAN: Mr. Chairman, Commission Pennefather and Commissioner del Val,
thank you very much for this opportunity.
3485
I am tempted to throw away the script because of the constraints of time
and after sitting here for two days I am shegrinned frankly at the inclination
to put corporate interest above public security. I am astounded at some of the things I
have heard. And I am not trying to
be melodramatic about this and I am not trying to be self‑righteous about it,
but as far as I know CKUA is the only media outlet in this country that has
voluntarily committed itself to working with a jurisdiction in the interest of
public safety.
3486
My name is Ken Regan, I am the General Manager at CKUA. Kris Rodts is our Broadcast Engineer in
charge of the EPWS program in Alberta for CKUA. Kris has 27 years in the industry, he is
a former Director of Engineering for Telemedia Radio West and a former Director
of Engineering for Newcap Broadcasting.
3487
I feel a little bit like the proverbial punching bag here today, because
we took some body shots from our friends at CanWest because of our role as a
prime partner, if you like, in emergency broadcasting and emergency management
in Alberta, and from CTV and.. And
I have great respect for all of the people here and all of their commitment, I
really do. And we took a couple of
slaps upside the head from the emergency management people from Sarnia and
Brampton, etc. because of our role as a member of ‑‑ a proud member of the
broadcast media.
3488
Be that as it may ‑‑
3489
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Regan, I want to reassure you while we may have
heard what they have said and that is because it is already in the transcript,
we will assure you that we have been waiting for your presentation because we
want to know more of what you have been doing and you are part of our education
today and to help us in coming up with the best decision
possible.
3490
MR. REGAN: I appreciate that, thank you. I take a somewhat perverse pleasure in
knowing that nothing I say here today may change the opinion of some of the
people out there, so that is okay.
3491
Next year marks the twentieth anniversary of the Edmonton tornado, which
was the impetuous, if you like, that lead to the development of Alberta's public
alerting system ‑‑ the Emergency Public Warning
System.
3492
Our engineer's been instrumental over the years in collaborating with the
Government of Alberta in the design, development, installation and
implementation and management of EPWS, so I think we bring a unique perspective
to the Commission today. The EPWS,
in spite of some of the things we've heard about its foibles, is a world class
system utilizing CKUA's terrestrial network of transmitters as its
backbone. In collaboration with
provincial, municipal and broadcast partners it offers immediate, affordable and
comprehensive public alerting to 95 per cent of Alberta's
populous.
3493
Over the years EPWS and CKUA's role in it have been studied by
delegations from the U.S.A., Finland, Denmark, provincial and municipal
jurisdictions within Canada and our own federal government. The value of it, I think, is
demonstrated in the draft CANALERT authorized user guidelines published by
Industry Canada where they say other reference documents were consulted but, in
particular, the Emergency Public Warning System guidelines developed by
Emergency Management Alberta provided the most significant source of
information. The EPWS provides a
solid base on which to model nationwide public alerting practices since the
Alberta system is the most advanced public alerting capability currently
operational in Canada.
3494
In our comments I would like to outline our position with respect to the
applicants, comment in these matters on some elements presented yesterday by
applicants in the hope perhaps of offering some insight. I would also like to correct some
inaccuracies within the record I think made by CBC with respect to EPWS and
Alberta Government's position with respect to EAS
conversion.
3495
Firstly, we support all of the applications in principle, frankly. Our concern is that this process is
premature. As has been evident in
the deliberations, there are conflicting testimonies, for example, to the
efficacy of CBC's proposed EAS technology.
No one, including the Commission, really knows whether or not a
fundamental platform proposed with a $16
million price tag is appropriate for the job. The applicants themselves seem uncertain
about or unwilling to comment with respect to the fundamental question of
liabilities. How can we consider
establishing such a critical and sweeping public program as a national alerting
system without having an answer to the basic question of who is liable for
what?
3496
The applicants seem unable or reluctant to fully commit to certain
elements of any program because, as they point out, the CANALERT protocols
themselves have not yet been fully or formally established. It is our belief that completing and
formalizing those protocols are essential as a first step in building a national
alerting system. We wouldn't have
an Emergency Public Warning System in Alberta today, not a functional one,
without having strict protocols and criteria in place in advance of launching
the system.
3497
Without knowing what a national alerting system is supposed to look like
how can a provider or a carrier be licensed to build it? How can the Commission know which
application best suits the criteria when the criteria themselves have neither
been fully developed nor approved.
The issue of a national alerting system is of vital importance and CKUA
recognizes that Industry Canada and even the federal government are anxious to
establish and implement one. We are
just very concerned that licensing a system in advance of the vital components
of protocols and criteria is going to undermine the credibility of the system or
perhaps lead to confusion, dysfunction that is going to be counterproductive in
achieving what you really need, which is trust and credibility of the
system.
3498
Within our own jurisdiction there has been a great deal of reluctance,
even occasional recalcitrants among broadcasters, some broadcasters, to fully
participate in Alberta's Emergency Public Warning System. They all have their own reasons, some
are concerned about the potential impact of a false alarm or an unauthorized
activation. Some merely balk at the
prospect of interrupting their programming for fear it might alienate their
audience or their advertisers, depending on the timing of the alert and the
nature of it.
3499
It is therefore CKUA's recommendation that participation by broadcasters
in the public alerting system be mandatory. Public safety is a broadcaster
responsibility, but it is a government obligation. We have heard discussions here today
about ‑‑ from our friends at CanWest and CHUM and CTV about the media's
desire and ability to report incidents of local emergency and that sort of
thing. But the fact remains that
media are reactive. Emergency
management people are often, more often than not hopefully,
proactive.
3500
On the question of the problems in inaccurate information coming from
emergency management personnel on the ground facing an emergency, I think it is
a bit of the pot calling the kettle black when the media starts talking about
conveying false information. We are
all guilty of it, it is an imperfect system. Media are no better at getting the
message right than the people on the ground in a situation like
that.
3501
We respect, as I say, completely the good will and cooperation
demonstrated by everybody in this room and everybody participating in the
CANALERT working group. But in our
experience similar commitments made in good faith have disappeared in practice,
subjugated to commercial interest or because they were simply ignored. A national alerting system is only a
true public safety system if it is universal and it is constant. Any opportunity for discretion creates
opportunity for failure. And when
it comes to the fundamental issue of public safety failure is not an
option.
3502
If the Commission is concerned, and I have heard expression of concern,
about its jurisdiction with respect to making participation mandatory, we
suggest the Commission simply adopt the practice of asking new license
applicants, as well as any broadcaster seeking a license renewal, whether they
would accept a condition of license requiring participation in the system and
allow them at the licensing stage the opportunity to say
no.
3503
CKUA has other concerns obviously with respect to the impact of licensing
on our own contractual relationship with the Alberta Government. We have placed ourselves in a position
where that contract represents about 18 to 20 per cent of our annual operating
revenues. And I am loathe to take
shots at my good friends at the CBC who are tax funded and we earn our keep, but
the $700,000 that they referred to yesterday as being not a lot of money is a
whole lot of money to an organization that is listener supported primarily,
$500,000 is a whole lot of money.
Anything that was determined by the Commission and/or government that
would place in jeopardy that relationship would be a significant setback for us
and possibly a real crisis for an organization like
CKUA.
3504
Representatives or Commission counsel yesterday asked people from
Pelmorex whether it was their intention to ride roughshod over organizations
like CKUA or the system that we have in place in Alberta. And Pelmorex appropriately said that
that is not their intention and we believe them. I think the issue is less one of being
rode roughshod over ‑‑ if that is a word or a phrase ‑‑ and more one
of the potential of shredding a system that exists
presently.
3505
I think, as I say, a national alerting system must be universal and it
must be constant in terms of even the small things, like how the message is
delivered and what shape the message takes. You need consistency if people are going
to get the message. Appreciating,
as I say, the expressions of good will and the willingness of the broadcast
people and telcos in the room to say it shouldn't be mandated, we are going to
gravitate towards doing this kind of a thing anyway, I just don't think it
is ‑‑ it is not a question of some doing it and everyone gravitating. If somebody is left out of the loop or
if any one broadcaster at a local level, national level, regional level
whatever, chooses not to participate you don't have a system, you don't have a
public alerting system. So
mandatory application I think is essential.
3506
A couple of things, if I may, to clear up the public record. The EAS technology adopted by CBC, there
is some question here as to whether it is most appropriate technology for a
CANALERT system. We believe at CKUA
that it is inferior frankly to what is currently in use by Alberta and CKUA as
part of our system and we can elaborate on that if you
wish.
3507
On page 17, subparagraph 7 of their application CBC
states:
"In Alberta the
nature of alert messages has moved from those alerting the public to
life‑threatening emergencies of an imminent nature to one that is closer to
providing important but non‑critical information updates, for example, on flood
warnings, an area which might be better left to normal broadcasting channels
than to be carried over a short fuse alert system."
3508
We have heard other references today to, you know, people in Lethbridge
or the Lethbridge flood thing where the system was activated to provide
updates. People who, not knowing
anything about the EPWS, might think that it was a whacko system, you know, run
by a thousand‑strong hoard of people in Lethbridge who call in or activate it
when their toilet backs up, that is not the
case.
3509
The fact is that it is a very good system, it works. Since 1998 it has been activated, or
1992, it has been activated 38 times.
The incidents that are being referred to in Lethbridge were improper
activations of the system by anxious people on the ground wanting to do good for
their community. The problems were
dealt with, those people were met by EPWS officials and they worked out those
issues. Again, it is not a perfect
system, there never will be one.
But we are doing the best we can and we think what we have is pretty good
and people around the world seem to think so too.
3510
The examples that CBC cited as accepted practice, as I say, were outside
the activation criteria for EPWS.
It is a misrepresentation frankly for CBC to suggest those activations
are an accepted element of EPWS, which is how I read their paragraph. And it is incorrect to suggest such
incidents are a rationale for not considering Alberta's EPWS for a national
application.
3511
CBC intimated yesterday that the Alberta Government is looking at
revamping their system to incorporate EAS technology. Correspondence that I can read to you
from Mr. Colin Lloyd, a senior official with Emergency Management Alberta
responsible for EPWS, I quote:
"Having consulted
my executive director I can confirm that Alberta has no intention to change the
EPWS in context of what is currently before the CRTC. We support the principle of all‑channel
alerting, because it gives an option of public alerting to the majority of
provinces and territories who have no system at all."
3512
He goes on to say:
"In particular, we
highly value our relationship with our contract partner CKUA. Whilst we have had discussions with CBC
about the efficacy of direct to broadcaster trials, no firm commitment has been
made about trialing or any other matter."
3513
Finally ‑‑ I am not even going to bother. In conclusion, CKUA recommends that this
Commission defer consideration of the applications until such time as our
national government and its agencies have fully defined and determined all
relevant criteria frameworks, including funding frameworks and protocols for a
national alerting system.
3514
CKUA believes that without knowing these things the Commission is
unfairly compromised in trying to make an appropriately informed decision. We also believe that the stakes with
respect to creating a viable, credible and reliable national alerting system are
too high to risk making a decision that could prove faulty, incomplete,
short‑sighted or, for whatever reason, in appropriate. The integrity of your decision on this
matter is paramount if public trust it the system is to be achieved and public
trust in the system is vital if any national alerting system is going to
succeed.
3515
I will stop there and I thank you very much for the opportunity. I hope I didn't sound petulant, because
I am not.
3516
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Regan. I will have Commissioner Pennefather as
you the first question. Thank
you.
3517
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, it is only 5:30, it is okay.
(laughter)
3518
MR. REGAN: It seems later.
3519
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you for your intervention. It is ‑‑ there are a number of
questions I could ask, but I will try to focus a little bit considering the
time. But what you have brought is
very important observations from the point of view of participating in a system
that is up and running. Leaving
aside, and again, as the Chairman so rightly said previously, we look at all
pages of the transcript and we are not finished yet in this
hearing.
3520
One of the things that I wanted to ask you about based on your written
intervention is your concern about subverting, duplicating or integrating
Alberta's existing system. So just
stepping back a bit, taking your point that you feel we are too soon in the
process, that we should not make a decision before certain protocols are in
place. You have been here I think
for a great deal of the discussion, if not all, and obviously you have been
referencing and so have the applicants, the fact that we are coming close with
guidelines on the table and we have made some references to that. We have participants like yourself and
the emergency managers who can offer us advice on what constitutes definitions
of users, emergencies and we have had enough of that I think to get a sense that
people and yourselves can provide those definitions and do function within
them.
3521
And at the other side of your point about we should wait is the demand of
interveners and the concern that a national alerting system is needed in this
country. Every thing is a balancing
act, so let us just explore that a little bit more.
3522
In establishing the program in Alberta did you wait until everything was
in place in terms of protocols and guidelines or did in fact the practice not
help define that to some extent?
3523
MR. REGAN: Fair point.
3524
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And what kind of timing would you say would be
involved before we could get to a stage where things were
perfect?
3525
MR. REGAN: No, fair
point. Certainly, the Alberta
system has been and is today an evolutionary one, there is no question about
it. And we have certainly learned
from our experiences and our successes and our failures.
3526
I think the point is though that I think, I really do think we are so
close right now to having the appropriate protocols in place that I think a
deferral by the Commission to allow those things to be ratified, if you like,
and authorized if necessary through legislation, I am not sure if that is
necessary, but I think we are so close that you can afford to wait and I think
it will give you a better opportunity to launch a nationwide system with a
strong foundation of integrity to it.
3527
I think, and we have seen here this week, there are a lot of different
views and opinions about how an alerting system should work or should be
delivered and in what form it should be delivered. And, you know, there are a
number of ‑‑ it is not just competing interests, just that there are
differing opinions as to how it might all work. And I think, again, I think consistency
is so important in getting the message out to everyone. We are not just talking about ‑‑
even French/English ‑‑ we are not talking about ‑‑ we are talking
about Aboriginal peoples, we are talking about recent immigrants in our
communities, the multi‑cultural communities some of whom will speak neither
official language. There needs to
be a way to convey to them the urgency of the situation.
3528
In Alberta we use a specific symbolized graphic and an audio alarm, if
you like, signal and the whole idea is to get people's attention and to convey
to them that there is an emergency.
3529
I just think you are very close to getting those standards in place,
which I think is going to give you a better opportunity to have a credible
system from the get‑go.
3530
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Well, these things are usually partnerships, so
sometimes bringing the parties to the table around an eventuality fine tunes
their thinking and makes things happen.
And I was going to ask you that, in fact, in Alberta how you have found
solutions in matter the of language, Aboriginal languages. So, as I say, I assume these things
going forward.
3531
What I wanted to get to though was a couple of things. Let us assume then that a
national ‑‑working through the protocols and guidelines sufficiently to
move forward ‑‑ a national alerting system comes in place. You expressed concern, as I said earlier
in your paragraph 18 of your written intervention, about the subverting,
integrating ‑‑
3532
MR. REGAN: Um‑hmm.
3533
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: ‑‑ of your service. And I think you suggest there be a COL
in that regard, but I didn't see any articulation of that. First question, what would be the
solution to coordinate as opposed to cause a problem between the national alert
and your system? Why would then
national alerting system necessarily undermine the Alberta
system?
3534
MR. REGAN: Well, I guess it all depends on how it is structured. I think one thing you need to avoid,
again, is a duplication of message.
If people are getting messages from different sources, unless those
messages are virtually, well literally the same, there could be cause for
confusion.
3535
COMMISSION PENNEFATHER: I imagine that as in ‑‑ I am sorry to
interrupt you ‑‑ but I imagine that when you are issuing through your
system an emergency alert you are receiving that message from an authorized
user.
3536
MR. REGAN: Correct.
3537
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And from our conversation with the emergency
management organizations I would assume that also a national alert perhaps
affecting Alberta would come from perhaps even the same authorized user or
certainly an authorized user.
Wouldn't that be the point at which coordination would occur, because
they would be responsible for the accuracy of those
messages?
3538
MR. REGAN: Yes and, again, I guess it depends on the kind or the nature
of the delivery system that your, you know, that you would be importing, if you
like, into Alberta to augment or supplement the system that is there now. And if that was the case, that would be
less onerous I think.
3539
But again, I raises questions about, you know, duplication of
service. I mean, I am not sure
where the value is in adding layers, if you like, of essentially the same
thing. I think integration ‑‑
if integration were possible, that is the optimum I
suppose.
3540
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Because you do support the applications in
principle?
3541
MR. REGAN: Absolutely.
3542
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So I am pursuing the discussion on the
assumption you think a national alerting system is
necessary ‑‑
3543
MR. REGAN: Absolutely.
3544
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: ‑‑ and it would not eliminate
Alberta?
3545
MR. REGAN: Absolutely.
3546
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: All right. You were quite clear that you think it
should be mandatory to broadcasters and offered us a method to ‑‑ a
proposal in terms of ‑‑
3547
MR. REGAN: It is a sneaky method, but..
3548
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: With your experience to ‑‑ considering a
voluntary model ‑‑ with your knowledge do you have an understanding of the
costs and what would be required for broadcasters to upgrade their networks or
their stations to undertake a national alerting system and, from your
experience, can you give us some sense of that?
3549
MR. REGAN: I will defer to my colleague Chris Rodts on
that.
3550
MR. RODTS: Only yesterday have I seen the first draft of the CANALERT
document and to this point, no, we have not done that. What we can tell you is that we can take
part of the Alberta model and perhaps expand onto it even on a national level if at all
possible.
3551
MR. REGAN: Sixty million dollars would go a long way to doing
that.
3552
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Looks like a good number. Again, from your experience, one of the
issues we have raised in our discussions is misuse of the
system.
3553
MR. REGAN: Um‑hmm.
3554
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And what do you have in place? How do assure that there is no abuse or
misuse of the system?
3555
MR. REGAN: And again, I will ask Chris to comment on this. But there are, again, there are strict
criteria for when a system is activated and how it is activated and strict
protocols in place as to who gets to activate the system and Chris can say more
on that.
3556
MR. RODTS: Last Friday I had a meeting with the Solicitor General in
Edmonton and they had hired some new people to activate the amber alarm system
and it was brought very clearly that these people needed to go to extensive
training before even an activation can take place. There is also follow‑up, the government
will call in the people that are responsible and train them as things progress,
as there is more available.
3557
MR. REGAN: And there are also ‑‑ the system is activated through
essentially a coded process, keypad code process that not everyone had access
to. If you like, it is a restricted
code process.
3558
MR. RODTS: To keep the technology talk to a low, basically our system can
be activated with a telephone, a touchtone telephone system. There is no need for computer
involvement. It can be done, but
the alert can be activated in 362 communities in Alberta and it can be
defined ‑‑ that is what makes it unique, each receiver has a unique address
and a message can be sent to a specific unit.
3559
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So I can understand then you would want to
assure that there would be coordination and public education about alerts coming
through your system and alerts coming through a national system should it go
forward.
3560
MR. RODTS: Correctly, yes.
3561
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And do you have some specific suggestions? I think you even put it in terms of a
COL and therefore we would have a COL to the broadcaster saying you must
participate but you must participate, I guess, in a certain manner whereby you
would integrate with local services?
3562
MR. REGAN: Well, yes I think there is two ways of approaching the
participation factor. As I say, I
think public safety is a government obligation and I think the federal
government has the opportunity, if you like, and the authority to mandate
delivery of public alerting broadcasts by media. I recognize, certainly honour the
Commission's own jurisdiction, I think with respect to conditions of license
what I suggested was that you ask the, at renewal or application level, the
applicant whether they would accept the condition of license to broadcast public
alerting messages. But I think the
simpler solution is to have the federal government mandate
it.
3563
You know, seat belts are mandatory, you don't have the option because
they are mandatory because they save lives. Even in Alberta they have adopted a
mandatory seatbelt legislation because it saves lives and it saves costs. Health insurance is mandatory because it
saves lives and it saves costs.
3564
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I think what I was also referring to was, in
you paragraph 31 of your written intervention, you say the approved applicant in
this process must adhere to a COL that that precludes any subrogating or
compromising of Alberta's or any other existing alerting
system.
3565
MR. REGAN: Right.
3566
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Did you have something ‑‑ a COL makes us
look for words.
3567
MR. REGAN: Yes, and ‑‑
3568
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: What did you have in
mind?
3569
MR. REGAN: ‑‑ you know, honestly I probably don't and really that
particular paragraph stems from our concern about what ‑‑ only because
we're in this precarious situation that we are in in terms of ongoing
operational viability, because we are listener supported. We, you know, as a former CBC employee I
have great respect for the public broadcaster and I believe that they should be
publicly funded, but we don't have that luxury. And so we get real nervous when we see
developments on the horizon that could significantly and detrimentally affect
our viability. So I don't know, to
be honest, you know I don't know that it is necessarily fair to ask by condition
of license for protection for CKUA.
3570
There are better ways of doing it and I have been before this Commission
and I will be here in two weeks arguing another way of doing that so that we
don't need those kinds of protections, you know. There are better ways of doing it. But I think it is important to recognize
the validity of Alberta's EPWS and the validity of CKUA's role within that
system and I guess that is what I would want to have
protected.
3571
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Fair enough, I think that is a straightforward
response from that point of view.
But I think behind is a sense of ‑‑ trying to understand, since you
are experienced in this business, what you see would be necessary in reality, in
real life to avoid that kind of interference or subjugating or altering any
existing or future alert system, and one of them would be a national alert
system if, as you say, you support in principle the existence of such a
system.
3572
MR. REGAN: Um‑hmm.
3573
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So do you have any suggestions, besides the
Commission getting involved, about how that could happen?
3574
MR. REGAN: In terms of protecting the integrity of Alberta's
system?
3575
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Yes, that is right. Well, that is what you are saying that
should be ‑‑
3576
MR. REGAN: Yes.
3577
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: ‑‑ go ahead if ‑‑ leaving aside your
very clear point about CKUA and the contract, what are practical means in your
view to have that happen?
3578
MR. REGAN: Well, I think we have heard, you know, interveners here this
week suggest that there should be a multiplicity of options in terms of how
systems are ‑‑ which system is applied where or which technology is applied
where. I don't think that is
necessarily a bad thing. I
think ‑‑ I think the mandatory delivery of the message is critical, how the
message is delivered and the process perhaps is you could have
multiplicity.
3579
To get back to your question, however, I think one ‑‑ for example,
if CBC were licensed or were granted the approval to provide a national alerting
system in Canada, they have I don't know how many radio transmitters in Alberta
and their message would come into the head end of the cable outlets and BDUs and
all of that. Well, as I say, now
you have two systems of alerting, if you like. You have a provincially regulated or
mandated system and now you have a national system. It doesn't make sense to have two
systems.
3580
So it would seem likelier or at least conceivable that the provincial
jurisdiction would defer to the national jurisdiction or the provider of the
national system to absorb or assume the responsibility on a provincial scale as
well. And the integrity of public
alerting is intact, but CKUA's situation is not.
3581
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, those are my questions, Mr.
Chairman.
3582
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
Commissioner del Val.
3583
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank you.
You offered to elaborate on why you believe that the EAS technology is
inferior to the one used by Alberta.
I was afraid to ask, but a very good friend of mine, one thing he taught
me was he said you can drown in 20 feet of water as well as you can drown in 10,
so why don't you tell me more?
3584
MR. RODTS: The EPWS receiver is ‑‑
3585
THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you put your microphone..
3586
MR. RODTS: Sorry about that.
The EPWS receiver we use is manufactured by a company called MTS
Communication Products. They also
manufacture AES equipment. And in
the form of an email I asked what the difference was. And basically is that the American
standard it uses non‑standard bit rate tones and other non‑standard conventions
to make the data difficult to decode and has no error detection or correction
built in, which is some of the arguments we have heard over the past couple of
days.
3587
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Do you think there is any ‑‑ how big of a
benefit is it for Canada to use the same system as the
States?
3588
MR. RODTS: I don't believe there is any benefits for Canada to have a
different system than the United States, unless perhaps we are talking about a
global or North American alert or disaster.
3589
COMMISSIONER del VAL: I am sorry, did I ask the question correctly? I meant to ask what benefit is there for
us to have the same system? Did I
ask that? I
did?
3590
MR. REGAN: Sorry, Commissioner del Val, meaning the EAS system, utilizing
that?
3591
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Yes, to have it for all of North America, Canada
and the States.
3592
MR. RODTS: No, I don't believe it is really necessary,
no.
3593
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay, thank you. Then I just want to go to the closing of
your argument, and you said CKUA believes that without knowing these things the
Commission is unfairly compromised in trying to make an appropriately informed
decision. Do you think that
ultimately we should be the one to be making this
decision?
3594
MR. REGAN: With respect to..?
3595
COMMISSIONER del VAL: With respect to the implementation of a national
alert system, whether BDUs should be mandated to carry it, whether programmers
should be mandated to participate in the system. Should that be the CRTC's
decision?
3596
MR. REGAN: With all due respect, I don't think so. I really, as I said earlier, public
safety is a government obligation, it is a broadcast community's responsibility
and I think really it is the government that should be making these
determinations. And even if it was
to say to the industry and the regulators for the industry you must now do this
and get together and make it happen, I think at that point then we can, you
know, we can start putting out heads together.
3597
But, you know, I started by saying that I was shagrinned at ‑‑ we
are not talking here about profit, loss, margins. We are talking about public safety, we
are talking about people's lives.
And again, I am not trying to over dramatize this but, you know, to say
well we might participate if ‑‑ we will participate if it is our system,
you know, I don't ‑‑ we have to do better than that. As an industry we have, as I say, a
responsibility. And I think the
CANALERT guidelines are a great forward step. I think the work that is being done at
the working group is all good. But
there is some urgency, which we have heard here this week.
3598
But I ‑‑ I am sorry, a long answer to a short question, but I think
it is the government's responsibility to push this forward,
absolutely.
3599
COMMISSIONER del VAL: What do you think of the request that section 7(d)
of the BDU regs be amended? What do
you think of..?
3600
MR. REGAN: I agree completely and I would support CBC's wording on that,
on the proposed change of wording for 7(d). And I think that is something that the
Commission is in a position to deal with expeditiously and I think should to
create, if you like, cultivate the environment for a system when it is
ready.
3601
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Do you think taking that step is premature in light
of all of the issues that you have pointed out as being
unsettled?
3602
MR. REGAN: I don't think so only because, and this may sound
contradictory, but I don't think it is because I don't think that it has any
significant or glaring impact on the way the industry operates if it is
changed. It creates an opening, if
you like, or an avenue for good things to happen when the other pieces of the
puzzle are in place. But it has no
other detrimental affect that I can think of in the
interim.
3603
COMMISSIONER del VAL: But what about the issue of liability that is not
close to settling? Do you think
that should have an impact and..?
3604
MR. REGAN: The ‑‑ I am sorry..?
3605
COMMISSIONER del VAL: The issue of if the broadcasters were forced to
broadcast a signal that they have no control over and yet the issue of
liabilities as between even the BDU and the broadcaster is not settled, do you
think that should be an obstacle?
Do you think that ‑‑
3606
MR. REGAN: The liability issue is real. But again, I think government has an
obligation with respect to public safety and I think they have an obligation to
assume certain liabilities. As one
of our colleagues here earlier said, if there is negligence on the part of the
broadcaster with respect to participating or delivering the message, we carry
liability insurance for those reasons, for lots of other things, but I think the
message itself is the responsibility of the local authority, government
authority or government agent whoever they might be.
3607
COMMISSIONER del VAL: So do you think we should wait until that issue of
liability, say between the authorized issuer and the ultimate displayer of the
message, do you think we should wait until at least that part is settled before
making a 7(d) amendment?
3608
MR. REGAN: You will forgive me if I have misunderstood the wording on
7(d), but it didn't strike me as being obligatory, sorry, didn't strike me as
requiring mandatory carriage. My
understanding of it, and I could be wrong, was that it provided or cleared the
way rather to remove legalities that now preclude delivery of those
messages.
3609
COMMISSIONER del VAL: It is not so much mandatory, but the broadcaster
would no longer have a say as to whether that alert signal can
be ‑‑
3610
MR. REGAN: Modified.
3611
COMMISSIONER del VAL: ‑‑ can alter, yes, their
program.
3612
MR. REGAN: Well again, I think at a certain point I think we have to
trust the people who are trained in emergency management to do their jobs
correctly and to be honest, again with great respect to my friends at CanWest
and CTV and CHUM, I don't know that it is the media's place or that it is
appropriate for us to start rejigging a message with respect to public alerting,
that doesn't make any sense to me.
I think that is when you get into liability issues when you start playing
with the message.
3613
But I think if you have emergency management people who are trained in
the appropriate delivery of those messages and if you have, again, criteria
established and the correct protocols, I think at a certain point you would have
to trust that the message coming through is the right message. And again, we have controls in place to
preclude just anybody walking in off the street and sending up an emergency
message.
3614
COMMISSIONER del VAL: But perhaps if the CanWests of the world want to
rejig that message and thereby take on the liability should it be our attitude
that well by all means then you can be responsible?
3615
MR. REGAN: That is a tough question. I don't know what would be an
appropriate response. I suppose if
CanWest, you know, wanted to assume that liability. But I think, again, I think consistency
in the message is very very important if you are going to cultivate an
understanding of what emergency alerting is. And that is why our preference is to
have the message be consistent in appearance and in terms of its context and in
terms of where it comes from.
3616
COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank you.
Thank you for taking the time to give us your perspective, it has been
very helpful. Those are my
questions, thank you, Mr. Chair.
3617
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner del Val. I have ‑‑ well a lot of questions
are coming in my mind. When I am
reading your paragraph number 8 of your written submission I see that you have
been very successful in involving over 150 Alberta broadcasters in the EPWS, and
AMBER alert service. And if I am
looking at the diagram that you have provided us with at the end of your oral
presentation, I see that CKUA is the issuer of the message ‑‑ you are
getting the message from the field, in the terrain, but you are the issuer and
it goes not only to your CKUA network, but it also goes to all the other
broadcasters.
3618
Am I ‑‑ here talking only radio broadcasters, but also cable and
television broadcasters?
3619
MR. RODTS: Yes, we included cable companies and television
stations.
3620
THE CHAIRPERSON: And television stations. Now, we have been ‑‑ and it is your
own message that goes on air, a message that you have received, that you have
put in form that is sent and that is the one that is broadcast over those 150
broadcast ‑‑ if need be or it will be to a
very ‑‑
3621
MR. REGAN: Localized.
3622
THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ localized ‑‑
"granular" ‑‑
3623
MR. REGAN: Yes.
3624
THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ as Videotron called the area ‑‑ say
Medicine Hat for ‑‑
3625
MR. REGAN: Yes.
3626
THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ for one
purpose.
3627
MR. REGAN: Yes.
3628
THE CHAIRPERSON: Then they ‑‑ how have you circumvened section 7(d)
of the distribution regulations in order to have your message through all
the..? Have you negotiated with
each and every broadcaster and service provider so that they have freed you up
of any..?
3629
MR. REGAN: Yes, well we haven't personally, but the Alberta Government
has basically acquired voluntary participation from the broadcasters in Alberta,
the ones that are on the list and really it is the vast majority. I can't think of any that haven't
participated unless they're outside of the region, the coverage area of EPWS,
which would be very very few.
3630
THE CHAIRPERSON: And it is the Government of Alberta that has undertook
to negotiate with each and every interested party?
3631
MR. REGAN: Yes, they have invited them to participate and they have
invited them in and the media in Alberta have been very willing in spite of the,
you know, occasional recalcitrance or occasional reluctance. For the most part they have been willing
to at least give it a shot in trying to make this system
work.
3632
THE CHAIRPERSON: Now there is a delegation of authority to CKUA. Have you sought a network
license?
3633
MR. REGAN: No, sir.
3634
THE CHAIRPERSON: No, sir.
3635
MR. REGAN: Should we?
3636
THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, I am leaving it to our experts at the table, but
from ‑‑
3637
MR. REGAN: We are Alberta.
3638
THE CHAIRPERSON: You are Alberta.
Do I understand that say Shaw Communications is also a participant in
your service?
3639
MR. REGAN: That is correct.
3640
THE CHAIRPERSON: That is correct.
So is Shaw putting a message on all the signals that they are carrying
on..?
3641
MR. REGAN: On all of their channels?
3642
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, on all of their channels?
3643
MR. REGAN: I don't know the answer to
that.
3644
MR. RODTS: I don't know for sure, because there are so many cable head
ends. And usually once we activate
an emergency alert silent test or a real test it is the Alberta Government that
calls all the authorities, making sure that they have received this signal as
verification.
3645
THE CHAIRPERSON: Obviously, I don't know if you.. In the area where you live have you ever
seen ‑‑ say you were watching A&E and they ran an alert. Have you seen ‑‑ is it a crawl, is
it a fixed image, what..?
3646
MR. REGAN: It is full screen fixed image ‑‑
3647
THE CHAIRPERSON: It is full screen fixed image.
3648
MR. REGAN: ‑‑ and audio transmission.
3649
THE CHAIRPERSON: That is it?
3650
MR. REGAN: Correct.
3651
THE CHAIRPERSON: And will it go on all the channels or on a very limited
number?
3652
MR. REGAN. I honestly don't know the answer to that. The people from Shaw could probably tell
you. Honestly, I have never seen it
or been in a position to see it when an activation has
occurred.
3653
MR. RODTS: If I may interrupt.
As a fact, on all the local television stations in Edmonton the warning
does appear, yes.
3654
THE CHAIRPERSON: And what do you call local in that instance, all the 100
channels that they are offering or all those who are over‑the‑air
television?
3655
MR. RODTS: Over‑the‑air television and available on cable as
well.
3656
MR. REGAN: So yes, so it does go to the over‑the‑air people who
are..
3657
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
3658
MR. REGAN: So if I am a Shaw subscriber it will show up on all of the
locally available channels, television channels. Whether it
goes ‑‑
3659
MR. RODTS: I think ‑‑
3660
MR. REGAN: I am sorry, Chris, I was going to say whether it goes to
A&E and CNN I am not sure.
3661
MR. RODTS: We maintain the network as well. We have heard stories yesterday of
people purchasing equipment and it being left in a corner and not working. All the receivers, the EPWS receivers,
are owned by the government but we carry all the engineering, all the support,
we are available 24/7, 365 days a year.
3662
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, well those were my questions and I know that the
legal counsel may have a few others.
3663
MR. McCALLUM: Just a couple, if I may. When you receive a message from EPWS you
do not alter it, you pass it unaltered?
3664
MR. REGAN: That is correct.
3665
MR. McCALLUM: And so in addressing the liability issues you address it
through like, for example, your own insurance?
3666
MR. REGAN: We have liability insurance to deal with negligence, yes, with
respect to our EPWS position. Our
contract with the government also provides some indemnity with respect to the
content of the message itself.
3667
MR. McCALLUM: So you don't consider yourself responsible for the content
of the EPWS message that you receive?
3668
MR. REGAN: No, sir. It
originates with a government authority and we carry it
unaltered.
3669
MR. McCALLUM: And on a cable system the channels are force tuned to one
channel?
3670
MR. REGAN: It is not a channel.
Chris perhaps can explain this a little better than I, but it is
basically the emergency public warning logo, if you like, appears on the
channel. So it is not rerouted
anywhere if I am correct, Chris?
3671
MR. RODTS: No, only the logo will show indicating that there is an
alarm. There will also be very loud
tones, bursts of noise, then the message.
3672
MR. McCALLUM: Sorry, if I am watching a TV channel, the local Edmonton
channel, what will appear on the screen?
It will be an icon or..?
3673
MR. REGAN: Yes, it is the ‑‑
3674
MR. McCALLUM: So the programming continues?
3675
MR. REGAN: No, the programming disappears. The icon and the message is inserted, if
you like, into that program, it takes over that program.
3676
MR. McCALLUM: It takes over the program?
3677
MR. REGAN: Yes.
3678
MR. McCALLUM: So as a viewer you no longer see the
program?
3679
MR. REGAN: Correct.
3680
MR. McCALLUM: Is that a method also of addressing the liability for
broadcasters that vis à vis the broadcaster, their signal is no longer
distributed and since viewers are not watching it any liability that they might
have otherwise had is attenuated by the fact that something else is
superimposed?
3681
MR. REGAN: I am not a lawyer, but I suppose it could be argued. As I say, they have voluntarily
participated in the program and the message that comes to them is unaltered, it
originates with government‑designated authorities and delivered via equipment
provided through the Alberta Government and a signal generated, if you like, by
CKUA. Is that fair to
say?
3682
MR. RODTS: Yes. And also in
place is a letter between the broadcaster and the Alberta
Government ‑‑
3683
MR. McCALLUM: I see.
3684
MR. RODTS: ‑‑ as a contract or..
3685
MR. McCALLUM: Yes, good I was going to ask sort of a clean‑up question if
there are any other measures taken or put in place to address the liability
issues. So that letter is another
measure?
3686
MR. RODTS: Exactly.
3687
MR. McCALLUM: Anything else to address the liability
issues?
3688
MR. REGAN: Not that I am aware of.
3689
MR. McCALLUM: Could you just explain, there seems to have been an
increase in the number of authorized users in the Alberta system going from some
400 or so in 2003 to around 1,000 now.
Can you explain why the increase?
3690
MR. RODTS: We have 362 municipalities in the province of Alberta and per
municipality there is two employees who can access the code. So basically, we have 700 people that
have access authorized through the EPWS system and we have about 80 people that
have access to the AMBER system.
3691
MR. REGAN: There has also been ‑‑ I think it may be a reflection of
the expansion of the EPWS from original two jurisdictions, Edmonton and Calgary,
to 10 jurisdictions, if you like, or regional areas around the provide. So the number of participants has
expanded since 2002, so that may account for some of that
expansion.
3692
MR. McCALLUM: Do provincial government authorities also have access to
the system as well as municipal authorities?
3693
MR. REGAN: Yes.
3694
MR. McCALLUM: Thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
3695
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Regan. Thank you.
3696
MR. REGAN: Thank you very much.
3697
THE CHAIRPERSON: And we will take a 10 minute break and we will continue
with the intervention period.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1815 /
Suspension à 1815
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1826 /
Reprise à 1826
3698
THE CHAIRPERSON: Order,
please. À l'ordre, s'il vous
plaît.
3699
For those who are applicants, before you leave the room I want you to
know that we expect you to be here tomorrow for the reply, and the Commission
will have questions for the three of you.
So even if you don't have any formal reply we will expect that you will
be in the room and be ready to reply to the Commission's
questions.
3700
I am asking the Secretary to introduce the next
intervenor.
3701
THE SECRETARY: Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
3702
I would now invite the Canadian Centre for Emergency Preparedness to come
forward if they are here.
3703
The next appearing intervenor would be Deborah
Kerr‑Guitard.
3704
I would then invite Mr. Marc Denis Everell for Environment Canada to come
forward.
3705
Gentlemen, you will have 10 minutes for your
presentation.
3706
Thank you.
INTERVENTION
3707
MR. EVERELL: Thank
you.
3708
Bon après midi. Ça me fait plaisir, également, de
présenter mes collègues autour de la table, David Grimes, et puis Basil van
Havre, notre aviseur légal, c'est‑à‑dire Julie Rancourt, et également, Nicole
Bois.
3709
Monsieur le Président, Members of the Commission, as
the Assistant Deputy Minister of the Meteorological Service of Canada, I am very
pleased to be here today representing Environment Canada.
3710
Thank you for giving our department the opportunity to highlight our
support for a critical enhancement to public safety in Canada through the
establishment of an all‑hazard, all‑channel public alerting emergency broadcast
system.
3711
I would like to take the next few minutes to explain to the Commission
why we believe so strongly in the essential role that the broadcast media must
play in alerting Canadians to significant hazards that pose a significant risk
to life and property.
3712
Les catastrophes naturelles
sont de plus en plus présentes dans le quotidien des Canadiennes et des
Canadiens. En fait, la grande
majorité de ces catastrophes, soit plus de 85 pour cent sont la conséquence de
phénomènes hydrométéorologiques, et le Canada n'est pas à l'abri des
conséquences de ces phénomènes naturels.
3713
Aujourd'hui, le monde passe à l'action. Partout, les états se mobilisent pour
lutter contre ces risques naturels et protéger leurs citoyens et leurs
infrastructures.
3714
Pas plus tard qu'en mars dernier, les présidents Bush et Fox, ainsi que
le premier ministre Harper, se sont engagés à travailler ensemble pour réduire
au minimum les dures réalités reliées aux catastrophes naturelles et
environnementales que confrontent les sociétés
nord‑américaines.
3715
A critical element of an
effective emergency management system is timely and effective
communication. An effective early
warning system is obviously not just about improving science and technology to
predict such natural hazards, something we do very well at Environment Canada,
but is equally about having the lead time notification to take the appropriate
action that saves lives. So it is
to this last point that the proposal now before you plays such an essential
role.
3716
Canadians have spoken. Our
surveys and others have confirmed that Canadians prefer to obtain weather
information via the broadcast media.
They rely on the media and they expect to be warned by the
media.
3717
These all‑hazard, all‑channel alert proposals that you have in front of
you will fill a significant gap in today's world of technological automation to
ensure that Canadians can be warned of imminent natural or environmental risks
that impact on their safety.
3718
Au Canada, comme vous le
savez, c'est notre ministère à qui il incombe de produire les prévisions
météorologiques et d'émettre des avertissements de phénomènes météorologiques ou
environnementaux menaçants. Il le
fait par le biais de diverses sources.
3719
Notamment, à travers les médias, Environnement Canada émet chaque année
environ 15 000 messages d'avertissement, dont beaucoup portent sur des
événements qui doivent survenir dans la ou les journées qui suivent, comme les
bordées de neige qu'on connaît bien, ou pour des dangers imminents comme des
tornades et des orages violents.
3720
En fait, ce sont ces derniers avertissements plus immédiats qui nous
préoccupent le plus aujourd'hui sur le plan de la sécurité
publique.
3721
À l'heure actuelle, nous utilisons de nombreux canaux pour diffuser nos
informations : les médias, notre réseau Radio Météo, le courriel, le fax, et
bien sûr, notre site web.
3722
Bien que nous réussissons à rejoindre de plus en plus des citoyens et
citoyennes d'année en année, nous ne pouvons compter uniquement sur nos propres
systèmes pour rejoindre la population en cas de situation d'urgence imminente,
the short fuse items.
3723
I would like to illustrate a
case study for the Commission as an example of the current situation in
Canada.
3724
On Friday, July 14, 2000, in the early evening, a very strong tornado hit
a campground near Pine Lake, Alberta.
It injured over 100 people and tragically caused the death of
12.
3725
Our forecast for this event was quite accurate with warnings issued about
half an hour before the event.
3726
Surveys conducted amongst the survivors indicate that there was virtually
no awareness of the imminent danger.
Many campers, in this case, were listening to the radio or watching
TV. Nobody interviewed recalled
hearing a warning of imminent danger on the broadcast media. Even with five minutes warning people
could have been evacuated to safer locations.
3727
This is very important to remember.
This is a very important situation that took place and these situations
are not unique. They take place
from time to time, maybe not with such drastic
consequences.
3728
I think this case and many others illustrate clearly that broadcasters
can and must play a role in disseminating short‑term emergency weather warnings
to Canadians. Maybe on average only
a few lives are lost every year due to severe weather and environmental events,
but it is the risk to life and the much higher consequences of those events
happening in a high density area that we have to plan and
act for.
3729
Environment Canada has been supporting the development of an all‑hazard,
all‑channel public alerting system since the early 1990s. We have been part of steering committees
on the matter along with Industry Canada and Public Safety
Canada.
3730
Environment Canada has been working with public and private sector
partners to develop and test systems.
The summary lessons learned from over a decade of talking and
experimenting are, first, that such a system is critically needed and second
that its implementation must be mandatory.
3731
In over a decade of effort on improving public alerting, where the
participation of broadcasters has been voluntary, Canadians have often not
received the warning messages, as in the case of Pine Lake. Therefore, if participation in an
emergency alerting system is left to the discretion of broadcasters, we are not
confident that it will succeed.
3732
Whatever system or systems are selected, their use, in our opinion, must
be mandated for use by the broadcast industry.
3733
Some intervenors from the broadcast industry have said here at the
hearing that if asked they will just do it and implement a system. Where were these people in the last
decades? You know, I didn't see
them, we didn't see them, many of them.
3734
Our experience over the past 13 years with public alerting is that the
broadcasters are unable or unwilling to commit to the costs associated in an
increasing competitive market. We
have not been successful in this period in impressing upon forecasters the role
that they serve in serving the public, even for emergency
situations.
3735
In short, we do not have faith that the broadcasters will, even if
encouraged by the CRTC or government at large, be willing to incur the expense
needed to implement the system. I
mean certainly if they would act fairly proactively this would be very counter
to our recent experience.
3736
Vous le savez, le Canada
accuse un retard par rapport aux autres pays qui ont déjà mis en place ce genre
de système. Après le tsunami de
2004 et les ouragans de 2005, nous devrions avoir tirés les leçons qui
s'imposent et être prêts à agir pour diminuer la vulnérabilité des
Canadiens.
3737
Il y a maintenant, comme vous le savez, des décennies que les États‑Unis
ont mis en place un système obligatoire de diffusion publique de messages
d'alerte qui interrompent les émissions de télévision et de radio en cours pour
diffuser des messages d'urgence. Si
leur système n'est pas, aujourd'hui, tout à fait à jour, il demeure que le
nécessité de ce système n'est pas mis en doute.
3738
En France, le gouvernement, de concert avec les médias et les autres
groupes intéressés, a également conclu une entente sur un système d'alerte
obligatoire.
3739
Public education has been
mentioned several times during this hearing. EC, Environment Canada, has been
actively engaged in this field as the citizens need to know what to do with the
information they will get. We want
to ensure you of our continuous engagement in this activity as
well.
3740
Commissioners, I am not here to tell you which of the current
applications before you you should select.
Our department will support any alerting system that will increase our
reach to Canadians in their homes, workplace, cars and boats. That is why we find merit in all three
licence applications.
3741
These proposals will not, however, be the final answer. A range of new methods and systems of
alerting citizens through their personal computers, cell phones, even
wristwatches, will need to be looked into.
The initiative led by our colleagues at Industry Canada like CANALERT
could lead toward such innovative solutions.
3742
In conclusion, Commissioners, we should not wait for a catastrophe to
happen and then respond to questions as to why we did not have such a system in
place. After 13 years of discussion
at the government level, as Industry Canada hosted steering committees as early
as 1993, it is time to actually do something about it. Canadians are counting on us to ensure
their safety.
3743
Merci beaucoup. Il me fera plaisir maintenant de
répondre à vos questions avec l'équipe qui est avec moi.
3744
LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci, Monsieur Everell.
3745
Avant de passer la parole à madame Pennefather, à Pine Lake en
2004...
3746
M. EVERELL : En 2000.
3747
LE PRÉSIDENT : En 2000, pardon... oui, 2000, le système du gouvernement
de l'Alberta ne fonctionnait pas à ce moment‑là, il n'était pas encore en
opération?
3748
M. EVERELL : Non, ce système‑là, il était partiellement en
opération...
3749
LE PRÉSIDENT : Partiellement en opération.
3750
M. EVERELL : ...mais peut‑être pas pour cette
zone‑là.
3751
LE PRÉSIDENT : Mais il ne l'était pas pour cette zone‑là. Donc, c'est une des raisons pour
lesquelles, évidemment, l'alerte n'a jamais été déclenchée, parce que ce
système‑là, normalement, aurait dû fonctionner.
3752
M. EVERELL : Exactement, il aurait dû fonctionner,
oui.
3753
LE PRÉSIDENT : Mais, évidemment, il n'était pas en
place.
3754
M. EVERELL : En Alberta, ils ont ce système‑là, mais dans d'autres
parties du pays, comme vous le savez, ça n'existe pas.
3755
LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui, puis c'est la seule région du pays où il y a un
système qui est fonctionnel.
3756
Madame Pennefather.
3757
CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER : Merci, Monsieur le
Président.
3758
Merci pour vos commentaires cet après‑midi et pour les commentaires par
écrit.
3759
J'aurais une clarification en commençant. Je pense que vous dites
aujourd'hui :
"I am not here to
tell you which of the current applications before you to select, be it one or
many." (As
read)
3760
Et dans la lettre, on
dit :
"For this reason,
EC supports the CRTC providing licence to the three applicants." (As read)
3761
Est‑ce que vous pouvez nous
clarifier, juste pour être clair, sur où se trouve Environnement Canada en ce
moment?
3762
M. EVERELL : Bien, Environnement Canada, on n'est pas un expert dans tous
les détails techniques là qui sont impliqués dans ces
propositions‑là.
3763
Également, il faut reconnaître que la réglementation dans ce domaine‑là
est relativement complexe à suivre.
J'ai essayé de suivre vos débats, vos discussions, et puis je dois vous
avouer que c'est assez complexe.
3764
À ce stage‑ci, je pense qu'Environnement Canada vous laisse à vous, les
experts, le choix, à savoir qu'est‑ce qu'il faut faire dans ce
domaine‑là.
3765
Nous, ce qu'on a de besoin, c'est d'avoir un système qui va être en
place, qui va être disponible pour travailler avec nous et nous permettre de,
finalement, acheminer nos messages urgents aux Canadiens, ce qu'on peut faire
assez difficilement actuellement, surtout dans certaines parties du pays. Dans d'autres parties, ça va assez
bien.
3766
CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER : Peut‑être je peux mettre de l'emphase sur les
mots "one or many."
3767
Sur le côté de votre expertise en terme de vos besoins pour alerter le
plus grand nombre de Canadiens possible, est‑ce que plusieurs systèmes sont
mieux qu'un système? Est‑ce que ça
ne risque pas une confusion? À
titre d'exemple, en ce moment, l'exemple que vous nous donnez, même s'il y a
deux ou trois systèmes, des fois, personne entend
l'alerte.
3768
MR. EVERELL: The bottom line is that we are ready to
work with the systems that are available and we will find ways to work with the
available system.
3769
We are doing that right now to a certain extent with what is available
and as things develop we will find a way ‑‑ we will develop with the
provider appropriate protocols to work with them. We have some right now in place that
work very well. We will continue in
that vein.
3770
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Which protocols are you referring to when you say they work
well?
3771
MR. GRIMES: We have been
quite active with the CANALERT working group in that, as recognized, Environment
Canada does issue a lot of warnings.
3772
With respect to your previous question, it is clear that Canadians use
multiple ways of being informed about these dangers and therefore we are
actually, as in the CANALERT system, trying to use a multichannel approach
recognizing that not all Canadians are watching television at the same time or
listening to radio at the same time.
So we have been quite active over the last 13 years working with a number
of agencies to promote this kind of multichannel use.
3773
With respect to confusion, I think this needs to be worked out with the
broadcast industry to sort of simplify how these messages go out. We will work with whoever is out there,
whatever system is there. If
Alberta is independent from a system in Saskatchewan and Manitoba, it is in the
interest of Environment Canada to ensure those messages reach all Canadians no
matter where that particular danger.
3774
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: At
the starting point then, in terms of your authority and your expertise ‑‑
we have mentioned several times in the course of the last couple of days the
CANALERT guidelines and more particularly the definition of "authorized
user".
3775
As you know, it may come to us to include such definitions in perhaps
changes to regulations if we should decide to proceed in that manner. In your view, is the definition of
"authorized user" in the draft guidelines coming out of CANALERT an appropriate
definition of "authorized user"?
3776
MR. GRIMES: We had provided
input to that directly and we are satisfied with the way it is
framed.
3777
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So
you would agree with a definition of "authorized user" that limits access to the
system or systems to only those individuals and agencies with a mandate to
monitor and inform the public with respect to threat to
life.
3778
In your experience as well ‑‑ you have heard the discussion ‑‑
what level of emergency would trigger the alert system that we are discussing
here?
3779
MR. EVERELL: Well, in the
case of meteorological phenomena, we would say that tornado warnings and as well
severe thunder storm warnings should trigger the system. In fact, we have tried to identify how
many such warnings this could mean let's say for the region of southern
Ontario. I mean these are only
estimates but for the Windsor area it could mean something like 75 warnings
during the extended summer season.
For the Toronto area it could mean maybe around 30 warnings that would
trigger the system.
3780
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So
anything largely over that then, in your view, might constitute an overuse of
the system or is there any way for us to decide that?
3781
MR. EVERELL: Well, I think
we can still obviously be very open with the various players to understand if
other circumstances also could be considered.
3782
For instance, we were discussing within our meteorological community, if
you look at the Toronto area, for instance, maybe freezing rain, you know, that
happens at 10 o'clock in the morning and that is going to last for a few hours,
and we know that pretty well for a fact or a good prediction. Could there be a need to warn Canadians
in that area at that time? I think
those are sort of questions that we have in our mind.
3783
But I think with respect to what I said about tornados and severe weather
or severe storms, we are quite definite about that. This is accepted also by the
broadcasting community.
3784
MR. GRIMES: Just as a
supplementary, where you have a significant change of event that threatens life
or the security of citizens, then that would be when you would use this
warning. So in a context of
providing information where you forecast a rainstorm in Toronto, to use as an
example, and suddenly to be recognized in very short notice that that would be a
freezing rain event that could have a significant consequence on the security of
the citizens in that area, then we would use that kind of
event.
3785
So it is, in the judgment of the authorized organization, a feeling that
there is a threat to the safety of Canadians that one would use
that.
3786
MR. EVERELL: If I may add
another element.
3787
Within our sort of department also there is a group that deals with
environmental emergencies, like things that could develop in terms of toxic
clouds or fumes following an explosion or the like. Well, it could be that in that case
there would need to be an alert to Canadians in a certain area provided,
particularly about where the cloud could direct itself rapidly depending on the
wind conditions.
3788
So I think obviously there needs to be perhaps a bit more discussion to
refine these aspects, but I think with respect to meteorology it is a little
more, I would say, organized at this point.
3789
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
This brings me to your point about voluntary versus mandatory. You seem to make a very strong
case. Would you want to elaborate
on that, particularly ‑‑ we don't need to discuss it at length, and I take
your point that you are the experts and you have also made the point about
public education. You are there to
do what you have to do.
3790
Assuming though that the definition of "emergency" and the various levels
that we can see in various guidelines, be it the CAB's guidelines for private
radio or the guidelines currently on the table for CANALERT, indicate the
importance of consistency and accuracy, I'm wondering why, if you could just
elaborate a little more on your concern ‑‑ broadcasters and distributors,
cable distributors, satellite distributors ‑‑ we need to require mandatory
and not voluntary considering the importance of the broadcast media in this area
and their own comments that they would be willing to step up to the plate. Why do you see the necessity for
mandatory?
3791
MR. EVERELL: I think I
answered a little bit your question in my presentation, but maybe I will ask my
colleague David Grimes to supplement it.
3792
MR. GRIMES: What we have
noted over the course of the last decade in the broadcast industry is this move
towards automated systems. The Pine
Lake example was that it happened after six o'clock on a Friday and the local
radio station that was there basically had no one in there to relay a
message. We say it's mandatory
because we want to make sure the message goes out and we want to make sure it
goes out directly and timely because minutes saves lives, especially when you
are talking about a tornado.
3793
So in that context, the faster you get that message out ‑‑ so if
under the existing system, a voluntary approach, where it has to be relayed by
someone working in the studio, you lose time and sometimes, and it is recognized
that in some locations, there isn't anyone to relay that message and so that
message just doesn't get relayed.
3794
So our concern on mandatory is that we need a system that is national, we
need a system that is uniform, we need a system that everyone participates
in. The applications that have been
presented here are a move in that direction and they will work within the
CANALERT guidelines where we have been working on developing those
protocols.
3795
Thank you.
3796
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Thank you.
3797
You have heard my colleagues also ask several intervenors about which
kind of alert would be most effective in your view, the pop‑up, the full screen,
the crawl. Do you have any comment
on that?
3798
MR. EVERELL: Maybe, Basil,
please.
3799
MR. van HAVRE: We have done
some research on the design of the alerts and the full screen is an effective
way as it is used at the moment on the Penmark channel.
3800
The crawler on one part of the screen seems also to be effective. It is being used in several
jurisdictions.
3801
So as long as the lettering is in a large enough size, and we probably
could circulate some of the research we have done on that, and if there is a
good enough contrast and the issuing urgency is clearly identified ‑‑ for
example, in the case of tornado warnings, the crawler should start by: Environment Canada has issued a warning
for ‑‑ that's the important part for us.
3802
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
What is your comment on service for Canadians who are visually impaired
or hearing impaired? Do you
consider the applications or the proposals in front of us are adequate in that
regard?
3803
MR. van HAVRE: I'm trying to
recall from memory. We have done
some surveys with the visually impaired and the hearing impaired in the
past. The way internally we were
addressing the concern was through a combination of various
methods.
3804
As you know, we issue the warning by several different tools that we
control, one being by the radio, another one being the Web site. That is the way we have been dealing
with that.
3805
In the case of the proposal here, I remember that there is a 1‑800 number
service. We do the same. We have a telephone service and we do
provide the alert on the telephone service ourselves. That seems to be similar with the
approach we have taken.
3806
COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:
Thank you. Those are my
questions, Mr. Chairman.
3807
THE CHAIRPERSON: Commission
counsel.
3808
MR. McCALLUM: Just to follow
up on a couple of small points.
3809
Commissioner Pennefather asked you about the definition of "authorized
user" referring to the one that is in CANALERT, which refers
to:
"A public authority
refers to federal, provincial, territorial or municipal government, department
or agency that is appointed or authorized under its respective legislative laws
or bylaws as the responsible entity in charge of public safety in the concerned
jurisdiction." (As
read)
3810
Environment Canada would qualify as an authorized user under that
definition.
3811
MR. GRIMES: There are
probably two contexts. One is the
context of precedence and practice.
3812
In the case of Environment Canada, the actual enabling legislation does
not state that the Minister is authorized for issuing warnings specifically but
in the context it does say it is responsible for matters of meteorology and in
the matters of meteorology that would be ‑‑ warnings are in the matter of
meteorology and the minister therefore uses that as his authority for issuing
warnings. So in that context we
would qualify.
3813
MR. McCALLUM: So your
interpretation is that Environment Canada would qualify as an authorized
user.
3814
MR. GRIMES:
Yes.
3815
MR. EVERELL:
Yes.
3816
MR. McCALLUM: Is Environment
Canada involved at all with the EPWS system in Alberta?
3817
MR. van HAVRE: Yes, we are a
participant in this process and we are one of the issuing agencies authorized to
use the system. I don't think we
have used it since it was created.
3818
MR. McCALLUM: In the
previous group, which was CKUA, we asked them about measures to address
liability. They said that various
indemnity agreements have been put into place, including agreements between I
guess the Alberta government and broadcasters. I wondered if an indemnity agreement has
been put in place between Environment Canada and Alberta broadcasters for the
use of the system in Alberta.
3819
MS RANCOURT: The Crown is
self‑insured. It is not necessary
for the Crown to enter into indemnity agreements or those type of
arrangements.
3820
There is nothing unique in this situation as to how the law would
apply. If Environment Canada is
found to be negligent in the alerts it issues, Environment Canada will assume
responsibility.
3821
MS McCALLUM: Would that
answer also apply at the federal level then if the Commission were to go ahead
with one or other of these applications?
3822
MS RANCOURT: I'm sorry; I'm
not clear as to your answer.
3823
MR. McCALLUM: What I'm
trying to understand is, would your answer also apply at the federal level, in
other words, no need for letters of indemnity to broadcasters, because the Crown
is self‑insured?
3824
MS RANCOURT: Well, that's
correct, as between ‑‑ if you are talking about agreements between the
Crown and third parties, the Crown and broadcasters, the answer is the
same. The Crown is self‑insured,
the Crown is under ‑‑ there is no requirement for the Crown to enter into
indemnity agreements.
3825
MR. McCALLUM: But I think
from the perspective of the broadcasters in Alberta they wanted and, I
understand from the answer from CKUA, they obtained a comfort letter from the
provincial Crown offering to indemnify them in case they, CKUA, passed an
inappropriate alert.
3826
So one of my questions was:
had Environment Canada given a similar letter, comfort letter, to
broadcasters in Alberta?
3827
MR. EVERELL: The answer that
I have today is that we have not done so.
Nothing has been done.
3828
MR. McCALLUM: So if I ask
the same question at the federal level, would the answer also be probably
not?
3829
MR. van HAVRE: Not to our
knowledge.
3830
MR. McCALLUM: In other
words, you would not have any intention to do so.
3831
Let me requalify the question.
3832
You would not have any intention to do so absent legislative
change.
3833
MR. van HAVRE: Maybe it's
useful to talk ‑‑ we deal with the media for warnings in other
circumstances. In the other
circumstances where we exchange warnings with them, on our behalf they
rebroadcast a warning not an alert.
Let's say we are talking here about a severe winter storm coming in two
days. We have not entered into an
arrangement where we alleviate from liability.
3834
MR. McCALLUM: So nothing is
in place right now.
3835
MR. van HAVRE:
Right.
3836
MR. McCALLUM: You also spoke
about I guess some study that was done dealing with the different types of
alerts, the pop‑up box, the crawl, the full screen. In the context of doing that study, were
there any comments? Did anybody
make any comments as to whether the full screen option helps to deal with or
attenuate or address liability of broadcasters?
3837
MR. van HAVRE: No. The study was more in terms of the
capacity of the public to understand the message and the inconvenience of having
the rest of the visual of the program taken away from
them.
3838
MR. McCALLUM: So liability
issues were not addressed in that context whatsoever.
3839
MR. van HAVRE: That's
correct.
3840
MR. McCALLUM: Thank
you.
3841
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
3842
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
Mr. Everell. Thank you to your
colleagues.
3843
We will go to the next intervenor.
3844
Madame la Secrétaire, s'il
vous plaît.
3845
LA SECRÉTAIRE: Merci,
Monsieur le Président.
3846
J'inviterais maintenant monsieur Vincent Géracitano d'Avis de
recherche.tv à venir à l'avant.
3847
Monsieur Géracitano, vous avez 10 minutes pour faire votre
présentation.
3848
M. GÉRACITANO : Merci.
INTERVENTION
3849
M. GÉRACITANO : Monsieur le Président, mesdames et monsieur les
conseillers, membres du personnel.
3850
Bon, en effet, je suis Vincent Géracitano, président et actionnaire
majoritaire des entreprises titulaires des licences de services spécialisés
numériques Avis de recherche et All Points Bulletin.
3851
Comme vous le savez, Avis de recherche et All Points Bulletin sont des
services dont la programmation a pour but d'offrir aux organismes chargés
d'appliquer la loi au Canada un outil médiatique pour obtenir de l'information
des citoyens.
3852
En complément, ces deux services diffusent également des émissions de
prévention sur tous les aspects de la sécurité
publique.
3853
À mon avis, ces deux services remplissent une mission d'intérêt public
national qui devrait être reconnue comme telle. J'ai, d'ailleurs, déjà déposé au Conseil
une demande à cet effet qui sera discutée et débattue au moment
approprié.
3854
Le but de mon intervention aujourd'hui est double.
3855
D'une part, je veux accorder mon appui total au principe de créer un
service d'alerte tous‑canaux. Je
suis convaincu qu'un tel service servirait lui aussi l'intérêt public national
et que sa mise en oeuvre serait utile et bénéfique pour l'ensemble des citoyens
canadiens.
3856
Je demande, donc, au Conseil d'approuver la création d'un tel service et
de répondre positivement à la demande qu'il juge le mieux apte à assurer sa mise
en oeuvre et son succès parmi celles qui lui sont
présentées.
3857
D'autre part, je veux insister sur le fait qu'il est essentiel que le
Conseil rende la distribution d'un service d'alerte tous‑canaux obligatoire pour
toutes les grandes entreprises canadiennes de distribution terrestre et par
satellite s'il veut que ce service remplisse efficacement sa mission d'intérêt
public national.
3858
Je peux témoigner d'expérience que ce n'est pas parce qu'un service de
programmation sert l'intérêt public national qu'il trouvera facilement preneur
auprès des distributeurs canadiens.
3859
Depuis son entrée en ondes en octobre 2004, Avis de recherche a contribué
à l'arrestation de nombreux suspects, à la découverte rapide de personnes
disparues, à mettre un terme à certaines pratiques frauduleuses et à retracer
des criminels en fuite.
3860
En dépit de ses succès manifestes et de la réussite de quelques campagnes
de prévention qu'il a diffusé, Avis de recherche n'est distribué aujourd'hui que
par une seule entreprise de distribution, Vidéotron, alors que All Points
Bulletin est toujours à la recherche d'un distributeur.
3861
Pourtant, nous n'avons pas ménagé nos efforts pour être distribués. Nos services ont reçu l'appui
enthousiaste du ministre de la Sécurité publique du Québec, de tous les
principaux corps de police municipaux, provinciaux et fédéraux du
pays.
3862
Nous recevons presque quotidiennement des témoignages d'appréciation et
de gratitude de la part des organismes chargés d'appliquer la
loi.
3863
Cela démontre éloquemment, à notre avis, que le Conseil doit accorder une
distribution obligatoire au service numérique de base des principaux
distributeurs à tous les services de programmation dont il juge qu'ils servent
l'intérêt public national, car, à défaut, ces services ne seront pas en mesure
de remplir leur mission et de survivre dans un univers où leur distribution est
laissée exclusivement au bon vouloir des distributeurs.
3864
Le Conseil devrait aussi réglementer les tarifs mensuels de gros de ces
services, car, autrement, les distributeurs, au mieux, ne paieront pas pour
distribuer ces services. Au pire,
ils demanderont à être payés pour distribuer de tels services, ce qui est le cas
actuellement pour Avis de recherche.
3865
Quand aux recettes de commandite et de publicité, elles sont très
difficiles à obtenir pour des services qui n'offrent aucun contenu de
divertissement, sans compter que les annonceurs potentiels sont
extraordinairement réticents à s'associer à un service qui parle de crimes
réels, même si ce service sert l'intérêt public national et contribue à créer
une société canadienne plus sécuritaire et plus respectueuse des
lois.
3866
Une telle situation ne peut durer, car elle ne rend pas justice aux
services de programmation spécialisée dont la mission principale est de servir
l'intérêt public national. En fait,
elle compromet leur existence ou leur survie.
3867
Je vous remercie de votre attention et je suis, évidemment, disposé à
répondre à vos questions.
3868
LE PRÉSIDENT : Je vous remercie, Monsieur
Géracitano.
3869
Évidemment, je comprends très bien votre intervention, mais je ne suis
pas sûr qu'on est dans le bon forum pour en discuter.
3870
Cependant, vous avez quand même souligné un certain nombre de choses qui
sont pertinentes à l'audience présente, et qui est la distribution obligatoire
d'un service d'alerte multi‑canale ou d'alerte
météorologique.
3871
Vous avez entendu les demandes, vous avez pris connaissance des demandes
qui ont été déposées, mais vous avez surtout entendu les diverses interventions
qui ont comparu devant nous aujourd'hui.
Il s'est présenté quand même plusieurs modèles de diffusion, et je sais
que vous avez une expérience avec Avis de recherche.
3872
Malheureusement, je ne peux pas dire que je suis un téléspectateur
fréquent d'Avis de recherche, mais j'y ai quand même posé mes yeux. Vous travaillez surtout avec des images
fixes.
3873
M. GÉRACITANO : Oui, ainsi que des vidéos, dépendant de qu'est‑ce
que...
3874
LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.
3875
M. GÉRACITANO : ...les services de police nous
fournissent.
3876
LE PRÉSIDENT : C'est ça.
Mais en tout cas, ce que j'avais vu, c'était avec des images
fixes.
3877
On nous a parlé, aujourd'hui, de systèmes d'imagerie comme la bande
défilante, une image fixe et/ou une bulle d'information qui nous réfère à un
autre endroit.
3878
Avec votre expérience, est‑ce que vous pouvez nous faire des commentaires
sur ces modes d'imagerie?
3879
M. GÉRACITANO : Le commentaires que je pourrais faire, et c'est,
d'ailleurs, une suggestion que j'ai apporté à CANALERT, c'est possiblement de
référer, que ça soit une bulle ou que ça soit un son ou que ça soit une bande
défilante, de référer à un autre canal qui est déjà là pour la sécurité
publique.
3880
Alors, potentiellement, ils pourraient être référés au canal All Points
Bulletin dans le Canada anglais s'il y a une urgence. Alors, les auditeurs qui sont intéressés
à suivre ou de savoir un peu plus sur l'alerte peuvent être référés à un autre
canal.
3881
LE PRÉSIDENT : Et ça, ça signifie que All Points Bulletin... mais
évidemment, il est distribué de manière obligatoire vers l'ensemble des ADR du
pays?
3882
M. GÉRACITANO : Ça, c'est un autre débat,
effectivement.
3883
LE PRÉSIDENT : Parce que si je suis dans une région où on me dit d'aller
regarder All Points Bulletin, mais All Points Bulletin n'est pas distribué, ça
limite, évidemment, beaucoup le système.
3884
M. GÉRACITANO : Qu'est‑ce qu'il faut noter, c'est que ce n'est pas
uniquement All Points Bulletin.
Qu'est‑ce qu'on doit mettre de l'avant, c'est vraiment l'intérêt
public.
3885
Il n'y a pas seulement All Points Bulletin ou Avis de recherche. Il y a des canaux communautaires. Alors, si on ne peut pas dévoiler tout
le message au complet avec une bulle ou avec un genre de message... un crawler,
on peut facilement les référer à un autre canal qui a également les intérêts du
public, que ça soit un canal communautaire, dont ce canal‑là pourrait prendre,
avec les services spécialisés pourrait prendre et céder son temps d'antenne aux
autorités.
3886
LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous avez parlé, d'ailleurs, dans votre document du fait
qu'une des difficultés inhérentes à votre service, c'est effectivement le
problème de la redevance mensuelle pour un service. Or, une des propositions qui est devant
nous impliquerait une redevance des abonnés de câble.
3887
Avez‑vous des observations à nous faire sur...
3888
M. GÉRACITANO : Évidemment, je ne peux pas... je ne veux pas sélectionner
une des applications contre l'autre.
Qu'est‑ce qui est essentiel, c'est que les coûts restent minimes. C'est ça qui est
essentiel.
3889
LE PRÉSIDENT : Et c'est quoi des coûts minimes pour
vous?
3890
M. GÉRACITANO : Évidemment, dépendamment de la technologie qui est
utilisée. Je ne connais pas les
intervenants. Je ne connais pas les
besoins physiques en termes de matériel, en termes d'équipement. Des coûts... tout est relatif. Ça peut être cinq cents par abonné,
comme ça pourrait être vingt‑cinq cents, dépendamment de la façon qu'ils peuvent
justifier leurs coûts.
3891
LE PRÉSIDENT : Je présume que les gens de Pelmorex aimeraient mieux
vingt‑cinq cents que...
‑‑‑ Rires /
Laughter
3892
LE PRÉSIDENT : ...que le tarif qu'ils nous ont proposé, mais...
d'accord.
3893
Vous nous avez dit... il y a quelques instants, vous avez dit que vous
avez été consulté par CANALERT.
3894
M. GÉRACITANO : J'ai rencontré certaines personnes de CANALERT, et dans
une rencontre d'un après‑midi, j'avais posé la suggestion de possiblement
référer les alertes à un canal qui est déjà là, que ça soit un nouveau canal
comme All Points Bulletin ou un canal existant.
3895
LE PRÉSIDENT : Une des questions qu'on a discuté, aujourd'hui, par
beaucoup avec les intervenants, puis avec les requérants hier, c'était la notion
des usagers autorisés.
3896
Avez‑vous eu des discussions avec CANALERT sur cette question‑là? Parce que vous avez sensiblement le même
problème, on vous fourni des informations que vous diffusez à Avis de recherche,
mais elles ne vous sont pas nécessairement soumis par n'importe qui dans la
population générale. Elles vous
viennent de sources autorisées, je présume?
3897
M. GÉRACITANO : Exactement.
Si on prend l'exemple d'Avis de recherche, pour ceux qui ne sont pas
familiers avec Avis de recherche, on diffuse les images des services de police,
que ça soit photos ou vidéos, et également des photos de personnes qui sont
portées disparues. Très souvent,
c'est des enfants. Et à l'occasion,
on reçoit des demandes d'afficher une photo d'une fille qui est portée
disparue. La mère communique avec
nous.
3898
Pour nous, il est essentiel que les messages qu'on diffuse proviennent
uniquement des services de police pour questions de
sécurité.
3899
Dans le cas d'un système all alert, c'est vraiment les autorités qui ont
les compétences de diffuser ces messages.
Ce n'est pas n'importe qui qui doit utiliser ce
service.
3900
Que ça soit une application ou que ça soit l'autre, moi, je les vois
comme des outils pour les intervenants, pour les autorités, que ça soit CANALERT
ou que ça soit un autre organisme, une autre agence qui a la responsabilité
d'émettre ces alerts.
3901
D'ailleurs, je veux vraiment stresser le fait que pour que le service
pour un canal... an All Alert Channel, an ACA, soit vraiment fonctionnel, c'est
vraiment la gestion des messages, c'est vraiment la gestion de l'information qui
est diffusée.
3902
Les technologies qui nous sont présentées aujourd'hui sont bonnes
aujourd'hui, mais demain, peut‑être qu'elles seront désuètes, il va y avoir une
autre technologie un peu plus avancée.
Alors, c'est un peu difficile de choisir une aujourd'hui et dire on
oublie ceux qui vont nous être présentés demain.
3903
Mais qu'est‑ce qui est vraiment essentiel, c'est la gestion de
l'information, et je ne sais pas si, avec tout le respect au CRTC, je ne sais
pas si ça relève du CRTC de s'assurer que la gestion de l'information... d'après
moi, il faudrait vraiment, avec les bonnes autorités gouvernementales, mettre en
place un système ou une agence qui va s'occuper... pan‑canadien, du Pacifique à
l'Atlantique, une façon de gérer toute l'information qui est diffusée dans les
messages.
3904
Comme j'ai donné l'exemple d'Avis de recherche, la mère de famille, oui,
ça fait de la peine que sa fille ait disparu, mais nous, il faut vraiment que le
message nous provient des corps de police, et en temps et lieu, je peux vous
montrer plusieurs courriels qu'on reçoit ou plusieurs appels qu'on reçoit de
mères de famille qui demandent qu'on affiche les photos.
3905
Il faut vraiment que ça soit des autorités, et pour des raisons vraiment
de... on a parlé tout à l'heure de liability. C'est vraiment une question de qui est
responsable. Il faut s'assurer que
l'information qui est diffusée est exacte, qu'elle est, comme on dit en anglais,
qu'elle est timely. Il ne faut que
ça soit de l'information qui est désuète.
Alors, il faut vraiment que les personnes... qu'il y ait un système de
gestion qui est mis en place pour gérer cette information.
3906
LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous avez... d'ailleurs, vous venez juste d'en faire
allusion. C'est la responsabilité
de qui? Et vous posez vous‑même la
question, est‑ce que c'est la responsabilité du CRTC? Et vous avez remarqué qu'on s'est posé
nous‑mêmes la question.
3907
Donc, comme vous êtes un intervenant qui est expérimenté par l'expérience
d'Avis de recherche, croyez‑vous que le CRTC est une autorité habilité à
déterminer qui sont les usagers autorisés?
3908
M. GÉRACITANO : Vous me pardonnerez, mais je crois, avec tout le respect,
que le CRTC, oui, vous êtes habilité d'ordonner que le canal ou que le message
d'ACA soit vraiment mandatory, qu'il est vraiment obligatoire pour obliger les
radiodiffuseurs ou les télédiffuseurs de diffuser le message, qui est un message
de toute alerte.
3909
Par contre, le contenu du message, avec tout le respect du CRTC, il y a
des autorités, il y a des agences gouvernementales, que ça soit des services de
police, que ça soit des services de pompier ou que ça soit même possiblement
CANALERT, je n'ai pas de ces connaissances.
3910
Mais alors, oui, il faut faire une distinction entre la technologie pour
s'assurer que le message soit parvenu aux auditeurs à travers le pays et une
autre autorité qui est plus apte à décider quel message est d'importance et quel
message est de moindre importance.
3911
On a parlé tout à l'heure de la toilette de quelqu'un qui a fait un
back‑up. Qui décide quel message
diffusé?
3912
Ça, c'est la question, et ça serait bien important, une fois que vous
mettez le système en place, que les agences gouvernementales, le
département ‑‑ je ne pourrais pas vous dire quel département
gouvernemental ‑‑ dans ces situations‑là doivent mettre un genre de
protocole en place pour avoir un genre de guideline pour s'assure que ces
informations sont vraiment pertinentes et sont des matières d'urgence, que ce
sont des matières qu'il faut vraiment alerter la
population.
3913
Et également, si je peux rajouter, il faut vraiment s'assurer que
l'information qu'on diffuse est pertinente et qu'elle est
timely.
3914
On a parlé tout à l'heure... je ne sais pas si c'était ceux de CTV qui
ont fait des commentaires. Je vous
donne un petit exemple. Si on
diffuse une alerte, une alerte nationale qui provient d'Ottawa, parce que c'est
un service national, et que les personnes locales savent que cette alerte est
maintenant désuète, le problème n'est plus là, est‑ce qu'on continue toujours à
diffuser cette alerte?
3915
Alors, c'est vraiment... il faut être sûr que les personnes qui ont
l'autorité de diffuser ces messages‑là ont l'information à la dernière minute,
et ils peuvent retirer une alerte très, très rapidement.
3916
Nous, de notre côté, si je peux simplement rajouter ‑‑ je crois
l'avoir mentionné ‑‑ c'est que sur notre chaîne, les services de police
uniquement ont le droit de diffuser des
messages.
3917
LE PRÉSIDENT : Je vous remercie de votre présentation. Je vous remercie de votre patience pour
avoir passé tout ce temps‑là avec nous.
3918
Ceci va conclure la Phase III de l'audience
publique.
3919
Madame la Secrétaire va nous faire une petite
annonce.
3920
LA SECRÉTAIRE : C'est ça, Monsieur le Président.
3921
Juste pour indiquer, pour les fins du dossier, que les intervenants qui
devaient comparaître mais qui ne se sont pas présentés à l'audience, leur
intervention va demeurer au dossier comme des interventions sans
comparution.
3922
Merci, Monsieur le Président, et ça complète la Phase III du
processus.
3923
LE PRÉSIDENT : Nous reprendrons demain matin à 9 h 00 avec la Phase IV et
la réplique des quatre demandeurs.
Le premier requérant sera Bell ExpressVu.
3924
So we will resume at nine
o'clock tomorrow morning for the rebuttal period, Phase IV. The first to appear will be Bell
ExpressVu.
3925
We are expecting all the applicants to be here, even if you choose not to
make any comments. The Commission
asks questions to each and every one of the
applicants.
3926
Thank you very much. Have a
good evening.
‑‑‑ Whereupon the hearing
adjourned at 1922, to resume
on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 at
0900 / L'audience
est ajournée à 1922, pour
reprendre le mercredi
3 mai 2006 à
0900
REPORTERS
_____________________
_____________________
Lynda Johansson
Sue Villeneuve
_____________________
_____________________
Monique Mahoney
Madeleine Matte