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Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

       THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES AVANT

CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

    ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  SUBJECT:

 

 

 

VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:               TENUE À:

 

Metropolitan Conference               Centre de conférence

Centre                 Métropolitain

333 Fourth Avenue South West                 333, Fourth Avenue Sud‑Ouest

Calgary, Alberta                 Calgary (Alberta)

 

February 21, 2006           Le 21 février 2006

 


 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.


  Canadian Radio‑television and

Telecommunications Commission

 

Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

Transcript / Transcription

 

 

 

 

         

   VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

         

 

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Michel Arpin           Chairperson / Président

Helen del Val           Commissioner / Conseillère

Elizabeth Duncan           Commissioner / Conseillère

Ronald Williams           Commissioner / Conseillier

Stuart Langford           Commissioner / Conseillier

 

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Chantal Boulet     Secretary / Secrétaire

Leanne Bennett           Legal Counsel /

Conseillère juridique

Steve Parker           Hearing Manager /

Gérant de l'audience

 

 

 

HELD AT:           TENUE À:

 

Metropolitan Conference           Centre de conférence

Centre           Métropolitain

333 Fourth Avenue South West              333, Fourth Avenue Sud‑Ouest

Calgary, Alberta              Calgary (Alberta)

 

February 21, 2006           Le 21 février 2006

 

 


TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

    PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE I

 

 

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc. 6 /   33

 

CHUM Limited 81 /  527

 

1182743 Alberta Ltd. 192 / 1211

 

Evanov Radio Group Inc. (OBCI) 261 / 1672

 

 

 


  Calgary, Alberta / Calgary (Alberta)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Tuesday, February 21, 2006

    at 0930 / L'audience débute le Mardi

    21 février 2006 à 0930

1     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Please be seated.  We will start the hearing shortly.

2     Thank you.

‑‑‑ Pause

3     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.

4     Good morning ladies and gentlemen and welcome to this public hearing.  My name is Michel Arpin and I am the Vice‑Chair for the Broadcasting for the CRTC.  I will be presiding over this hearing.

5     Joining me today on the Panel are my colleagues.  On my right, Helen del Val, Regional Commissioner for British Colombia and the Yukon.  Then, on my immediate left, is Elizabeth Duncan, Regional Commissioner for the Atlantic.  To my extreme right is Ronald Williams, Regional Commissioner for Alberta and the Northwest Territories.  And to my extreme left is Stuart Langford, National Commissioner.


6     The Commission team assisting us includes Hearing Manager Steve Parker, Senior Broadcasting Analyst and Legal Counsel Leanne Bennett, as well as Chantal Boulet, Hearing Secretary.  Please speak with her if you have any questions with regard to hearing procedures.

7     You may see me through the hearing wearing this headset.  It is not because I am listening to the translation, it is because I want to hear you.  I have a small hearing problem, so I will be listening to the floor sound.

8     At this hearing, we will study 13 applications to operate a new commercial radio station in the Calgary market, more specifically in the cities of Calgary and Airdrie.

9     Then, for the Lethbridge market, we will look at an application to acquire the assets of specialty radio station CJTS‑FM and to change its frequency and power, as well as four applications to operate a new English‑language commercial FM radio station in that market.

10     The Panel will examine the applications in the order of Items 1 to 18 presented in Broadcasting Notice of Public Hearing CRTC 2005‑11.


11     Some applications will be competing technically for the use of the same frequencies in the Calgary and Lethbridge market.  The Panel will study the proposals to operate a new radio station in light of the cultural, economic and social objectives defined in the Broadcasting Act and the Regulations flowing from it.

12     The Panel will base its decision on several criteria, including the state of competition and the diversity of editorial voices in the market, as well as the quality of the application.

13     It will also look at the ability of the market to support new radio stations, the financial resources of each applicant and proposed initiatives for the development of Canadian talent.

14     I will now invite the Secretary, Mrs. Chantal Boulet, to explain the procedures we will be following.

15     Mrs. Boulet?

16     THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

17     Good morning everyone.  Before we begin, I would like to go over a few housekeeping matters to ensure the proper conduct of this hearing.


18     When you are in the hearing room, we would appreciate if you would please turn off your cell phones, beepers, Blackberries, or other text messaging devices as they are unwelcome distractions for participants and Commissioners, and they cause interference on the internal communications system used by our translators.  We would appreciate your cooperation in this regard throughout the hearing.

19     We expect the hearing to take approximately one week and a half.  We will begin each morning, starting tomorrow, at 8:30 a.m. and finish approximately around 6:00 p.m.  We will let you know of any schedule changes that may occur.

20     The Strand/Tivoli Room, which is located on the second floor up the stairs as you come out of the hearing room, will serve as the examination room where you can examine the public files of the applications being considered at this hearing.

21     As indicated on page 1 of the Agenda, the telephone number of the examination room is (403) 205‑4965.

22     There is a verbatim transcript of this hearing being taken by the court reporter at the table in front of me.  If you have any questions on how to obtain all or part of this transcript, please approach the court reporter during a break.  Please note that the full transcript will be made available on the Commission's website shortly after the conclusion of the hearing.


23     As indicated earlier, we will begin this week by considering the competing applications for the Calgary‑Airdrie market, followed by the competing applications for the Lethbridge market.

24     We will be proceeding with the four phase process as follows:

25     First, we will hear each applicant in the Agenda order, and each applicant will be granted 20 minutes to make their presentation.  Questions from the Commission will follow each presentation.

26     In Phase II, the applicants reappear in the same order to intervene, if they wish, on the competing application.  Ten minutes are allowed for this purpose.  Questions from the Commission may follow each intervention.

27     In Phase III, other parties, either the public, will appear in the order set out in the Agenda to present their appearing intervention and 10 minutes is allowed for the presentation.  Again, questions may follow by the Commission.

28     Finally, Phase IV provides an opportunity for each applicant to reply to all the interventions that were submitted on their application.  Applicants appear in reverse order and 10 minutes are allowed for this reply and, again, questions may follow.


29     THE SECRETARY:  Now, Mr. Chairman, we will proceed with Item 1 on the agenda which is an application by Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc. for a license to operate an English‑language AM commercial religious radio programming undertaking in Calgary.

30     The new station would operate on frequency 700 kHz, with a transmitter power of 50,000 watts daytime and 20,000 watts nighttime.

31     Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Alan Hunsperger who will introduce his colleagues.  You will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.

32     Mr. Hunsperger...?

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

33     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you, Madam Secretary.

34     Good morning Mr. Chairman, members of the CRTC and Commission staff.

35     As the first applicant before you in this hearing, I would like to take the time to welcome you to our wonderful city, Calgary, and hopefully you have a good stay and you enjoy the weather.

36     My next part of the presentation was according to the set up of four people and then people behind, so I'm going to have to ad lib a little bit of my introduction of our panel.


37     First of all, myself.  I am the founder of Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc., TCB as we will refer to it from now on.  I have been involved in radio broadcasting for 34 years.  I presented TCB's first application for a new commercial FM gospel music radio station to you back in 1996.

38     To my right is Bev Gilespie, who holds a Bachelor of Management Degree and serves as our business manager.  She has been with us for four years.

39     To her right is Mr. Richard Burrows, who is our sales manager of 88.9 Shine FM here in Calgary.  He has been with us for nine years and has many more years of experience selling in Calgary and western Canada.

40     To my left is Mr. Malcolm Hunt.  He is TCB's network program manager.  Malcolm has been in radio for 15 years, 10 of them with us.

41     Next to Malcolm is Holly Taylor who is our afternoon drive host of 105.9 Shine FM in Edmonton.  As a NAIT graduate in broadcasting, she came to us four years ago and has made herself an indispensable member of our team.

42     Next to Holly is Lana Lambert, who has worked with us for five years and has assisted me in the preparation of our applications for new stations.


43     We are here today to present our proposal for a new and distinct format for Calgarians, a southern gospel music format, a specialty station with all of its music from subcategory 35.

44     In our presentation today, we will tell you about TCB, it's present operations, the southern gospel music format, the research demonstrating its popularity in the Calgary market, and a description of what the proposed station will sound like.

45     TCB first became involved in radio in Alberta when we acquired the assets of CJCA in 1994.  CJCA was Edmonton's first radio station.  It had fallen on hard times and had in fact gone off the air when we acquired it and re‑launched it as a gospel music radio station.

46     Two years later, in 1996, the Commission approved our application for a gospel music radio station in Calgary and CJSI was launched as 88.9 Shine FM, a contemporary gospel music radio station.


47     While CJCA became quite popular with Edmonton audiences, we found fairly quickly that there were really two audiences for gospel music, those who preferred contemporary gospel, and those who preferred southern gospel.  Generally, those who like one really don't like the other.  Those who prefer the more contemporary sound are younger, while the fans of the older style tend to be over 45.  So a station trying to play both kinds of music is sort of like a station playing both alternative rock and big band.

48     We again applied to the Commission for a new commercial gospel FM station, this time in Edmonton, which the Commission approved in 2003.

49     Once we launched the new FM with the contemporary music format, we changed the AM format to southern gospel.  Our younger audience switched over to the new FM station and we acquired a new listening audience with the AM.

50     We received an incredible number of calls thanking us for the southern gospel music radio station.  Now, for the most part, moms, dads, kids and grandparents are happy with the opportunity to hear their favourite kind of gospel music.

51     I would like our network program manager, Malcolm Hunt, to describe to you the southern gospel and contemporary gospel sound.

52     MR. HUNT:  Thank you, Alan, and good morning Commissioners.


53     While the formats of Shine FM and The Light both fall into subcategory 35, specialty music, they can both be labelled gospel.

54     Having said that, they are as different from each other as soft rock is from heavy metal rock.  The name may be the same, but the sound is very different.

55     The contemporary gospel music of Shine FM has more in common with the pop and rock played on commercial CHR, hot AC and rock formats than it does with southern gospel.

56     What is common between the two gospel formats is that the lyrics are inspirational and uplifting, focusing on positive messages.

57     To illustrate, the songs of Frank Sinatra and those of Bono may both be about love and life, but the audiences that they attract are very different.

58     Shine's contemporary gospel music features artists such as Switchfoot, Michael W. Smith and Casting Crowns, playing a mixture of contemporary rock and today's pop.  By the way, there is a growing body of Canadian music in this area, with artists like Janelle, Greg Sczebel and Starfield.


59     The southern gospel sound is more rooted in the past, with very melodic sounds and often seems like a cross between barbershop, choir, country and bluegrass.  Some of its most prominent performers are Bill Gaither, Lauren Talley and the group Gold City.

60     While there may not be as many Canadian performers as of yet, Andrew Martin, Freedom and the New Hope Trio lead the way in this area.

61     I could go on listing artists that reflect southern gospel, the formats, but if you are not familiar with the genre it won't be very meaningful.

62     I should also mention that gospel music continues to see considerable growth.  In fact, it experienced a 16 percent increase in 2004.  We have prepared a short recording that shows first the contemporary music as played on Shine FM and, second, the southern gospel sound heard on AM 930 The Light in Edmonton.  This will show you the clear difference in sound.

‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip audio

63     MR. HUNT:  Of course everybody at this table hopes that you have good news for us.

64     Now to speak to how we decided that this would work in Calgary, I turn it back to Alan.

65     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you, Malcolm.


66     As I mentioned earlier, when we launched the southern gospel music format in Edmonton the reaction was overwhelming.  We knew that there was a demand for this type of music because of the popularity of the program called "Gospel Greats".  Heard on over 200 stations in North America, our existing stations consistently ranked among the top 10 percent.  This past year, we ranked number nine in North America.

67     Further to the success of the Gospel Great programs, here are a couple more examples that illustrate the popularity of southern gospel music.

68     When Bill Gaither brings his Homecoming gospel series to Edmonton and Calgary, ticket sales are almost twice what they are for the contemporary gospel concerts.  His Homecoming gospel series videos are the number one sellers across North America.

69     Alberta has also been the home of the Canadian version of the National Quartet Convention, held ever year in Red Deer, Alberta.  This draws southern gospel music lovers from British Columbia though to the Ontario border, north as far as the Northwest Territories and south into the United States with people coming as far as the State of California.


70     To prove that the market does exist, we request Ipsos Reid to do a survey of the Calgary market.  While Ipsos Reid typically uses random sample respondents, we wished to test two things:  the willingness to listen among the general population, as well as the intensity of interest amongst southern gospel music fans.

71     So the 300‑person sample was made up of 189 randomly drawn respondents from the general public, and 121 respondents provided to us by Calgary's biggest promoter of southern gospel music.

72     The results were very encouraging.  A full 20 percent of the random sample indicated it was clear it was likely that they would listen to the proposed station, while 98 percent of southern gospel music gospel fans said they wanted the southern gospel music radio station in Calgary.

73     Many of Ipsos Reid's findings reflect what we already knew.  We believe that we can attract a small but very loyal audience who cannot find what they want anywhere else on the radio, including Shine FM.

74     To talk about our sales strategy for the proposed southern gospel radio station is our sales manager, Richard Burrows.

75     MR. BURROWS:  Thank you, Alan.


76     My experience in selling radio in Calgary tells me that we can draw reasonable revenues with this format.  While the research tells us that the household incomes are lower than the average, because of their age we believe that their disposable income is substantial.  This is the generation that has paid off their mortgages and has seen their children educated and started on their own careers and are now able to spend on themselves and their grandchildren.

77     Because of their loyalty to the format and the sound, this is an audience that will support advertisers on their favourite radio station.  They have made it clear that they will do business with their advertisers, as they want this music to stay on the air.

78     As indicated in our application and correspondence that we expect 65 percent of our revenues to come from new advertisers, and we believe that we can be successful in expanding the radio pie in a number of ways.


79     First, there are a number of smaller businesses that have not traditionally been able to afford commercial radio rates.  Given our relatively low cost structure, and the small but intense audience that we will attract, our rates will be quite affordable.

80     And, as we have done in Edmonton, we have developed a number of vehicles that allow advertisers to use radio at an affordable rate.

81     For example, we provide what we call the business card bulletin.  This is an opportunity where three advertisers are billboarded in a 60‑second commercial, substantially reducing the cost for each client.

82     Second, the proposed station will be a very effective medium for those wishing to reach our demographic, such as retirement homes, RV outlets and travel agencies.  We can deliver the audience that they want at a reasonable cost.

83     Third, we provide a more extensive service package for what others call remotes.  Most stations operates remotes from their studio with occasional cut‑ins from an announcer at the client's premise.  We create a live broadcast on‑site, attracting listeners who want to see a live radio show.  This gives more value for both the client and the listener.


84     Fourth, there are advertisers who want to be with us because of the nature of our programming.  Quite simply, they want to be identified with family friendly programming that celebrates inspirational messages and a positive approach to life.

85     We took the research, our experience in Edmonton with this format, and our experience in Calgary with gospel music programming and incorporated it into our business plan, which Bev Gilespie will now share with you.

86     Bev...?

87     MS GILESPIE:  Thank you, Richard.

88     The revenue projections that we provided are based significantly on our experience with CJCA in Edmonton tempered by the reality of the Calgary market.

89     Before going further, I would like to draw your attention to the amended Schedule 4.1 which we have attached at the end of our remarks.  When we were preparing for this hearing, we realized that we had only specified $8,000 for the Canadian Talent Development, even though we propose to spend $16,000 annually.  This schedule has been adjusted accordingly, as well as for the identification of the spoken word programming revenues previously categorized as network revenue.

90     We do expect to have the following revenue streams.


91     First, our local revenues will be comprised of the sale of advertising.  These have been calculated using the number of advertisers and our approximation of their annual spending with us.  We also crosscheck this against what we anticipate will be the number of spots we would sell a year, with an average per spot.

92     The amounts we have provided are conservative.  We preferred to project a bit lower and be pleasantly surprised rather than the reverse.

93     As briefly mentioned above, what was recorded in network revenue is in fact the sale of time from spoken word programming, such as "Insight for Living", "Love Worth Finding", "Turning Point", and others.

94     The amount provided is much less than what we are currently doing in Edmonton, but we believe we will start slowing since some of the programs are already in the market.

95     You will also see that we expect a fairly quick increase of this revenue stream for the first few years as these annual contracts are secured.


96     On the expense side, we tailored our needs based on the previous Edmonton AM/FM model.  There is a significant savings we benefit from when sharing a building, staff and other costs with the existing FM station.

97     In addition, we have programming synergies with all three of the existing stations in most areas of operation.  This relatively conservative approach is the most economical way this kind of niche format can be presented.

98     We have talked about the music sound, our rationale behind our application and our business model.  Now I would like to ask Malcolm Hunt to talk about some of our other services we will provide.

99     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you, Bev.

100     In addition to the best of southern gospel music, we will provide a number of other types of programming to our audience.

101     The new AM station will be live and local during morning drive, with two hosts producing a program featuring music, newscasts prepared in our studios, along with weather, traffic, sports, entertainment and other topical information.


102     For much of the rest of the day we will use a voice tracking system, using some of our on‑air staff from Edmonton and from 88.9 Shine FM.  However, the advantage of collocating with the FM station, which is live and local for most of the broadcast day, is that we always have someone in the studio who can provide important breaking news as needed.

103     The proposed station will also broadcast a number of syndicated programs, including Dr. Laura, Gospel Greats and the Gaither homecoming radio show, hosted by Bill Gaither.  This program includes many live performances by the industry's best artists.

104     I will now ask Holly Taylor to share about her on‑air experiences and describe our community fund‑raising involvement.

105     MS TAYLOR:  Thanks, Malcolm.

106     As mentioned earlier, I am the afternoon drive announcer for 105.9 Shine FM and have been with TCB for the past four years.  I have seen the before and after results of just how beneficial two different gospel stations in the same market can be.

107     I field many listener calls in my daily five‑hour show and I have access to listeners at live on locations and at remotes.  The launch of 105.9 Shine FM freed up 930 CJCA The Light to play southern gospel music as well as the talk programs.


108     With the launch of 105.9 Shine FM, I had many first‑time listeners call in surprised that our contemporary gospel format had such a variety of songs and artists, Canadian and otherwise.

109     The split between the two gospel stations has created more satisfied and loyal listeners, listeners that are willing now more than ever to support our clients, our events and, most importantly, our fund‑raising efforts.  Raising funds for community non‑profit organizations is extremely important to TCB.

110     It is also important for me as an announcer and for our listeners to know that there is now a radio station that stands behind their community.  We are committed to continuing to do our part in serving the community through these fund‑raising efforts, and our energy has not been in vain.

111     Our focus is on three to four charities annually and results have been very rewarding.  Just this year alone we are over $1.1 million raised between all three stations.

112     We teamed up with Kid's Cottage 12 years ago, even before they became an association.  TCB expressed a need and our listeners jumped on board.  Kid's Cottage is a 24/7 facility that helps prevent child abuse and neglect.


113     Another organization we work with is The MustardSeed.  The Seed works with those in the inner city.  It offers them food, clothing, shelter and a place for them to feel they belong, like they matter, which is always good for the soul.

114     Year‑to‑date 88.9 Shine FM has raised $650,000 for The Seed with the local businesses and, of course, our listeners.

115     We also work with Compassion Canada, which is an international child sponsor program.  We primarily use a radiothon format to raise for our charities.  We sometimes joke around the station that we make more money for our charities than we do for our shareholders.

116     With a brief wrap up, here is Alan Hunsperger.

117     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you, Holly.

118     Mr. Chairman, we believe that our application deserves to be licensed.  The Commission has enunciated a number of criteria that it uses to evaluate new stations and we believe that we meet them well.


119     Calgary is a growing market of about $70 million in radio revenues.  It can easily sustain new ratio stations, particularly one with modest revenue requirements that will not compete with anyone for revenues.

120     Number two, licensing us does not create a competitive imbalance.  In fact, with only one station in a market where several large broadcasters have three or four stations, you are helping us to be more viable.

121     Number three, we have a strong and realistic business plan grounded in our 12 years of experience in gospel music programming.  We have lived through lean years and have found a way to sustain a business model.

122     Number four, our proposed format is in demand and will serve a significant group of people.

123     Number five, we have consistently exceeded the Canadian content requirement of our format.  In fact, our performance is 1.5 times what the Radio Regulations call for.

124     Number six, we will provide double the required spending for Canadian Talent Development and direct it to developing artists in a neglected area of Canadian music, gospel music.


125     Mr. Chairman, licensing this station will not only serve the gospel music listeners of Calgary, but because of the extent of the AM signal we provide a listening alternative to Red Deer and much of central and southern Alberta.

126     At present CJCA reaches Red Deer in the day, but must pull out after dark.  We hear regularly from residents of Red Deer and of rural Alberta that they want to have our sound available.  Our AM application to serve Calgary and rural southern and central Alberta is a part of our plan to build a service that reaches other markets, including Lethbridge, as you will hear later.

127     We hope you will share in our wish to provide additional diversity in music programming to our province.

128     Thank you for your patience and attention, and we would be pleased to answer your questions.

129     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Hunsperger.

130     I will have Mr. Langford ask you the questions, but I have one of clarification to Mr. Hunt.

131     On the bottom of page 3 of your oral presentation you say:


"I should also mention gospel music continues to see considerable growth.  In fact it experienced a 16% increase in 2004."

132     Sixteen percent of what, of music production or an index or international music, Canadian music?

133     MR. HUNT:  It's of its of own growth.  Yes, music sales.  Correct.

134     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

135     I am asking Mr. Langford.

136     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, that pretty well wrapped up all my questions.  I think we can go home now.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

137     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I do have a few more.  Welcome to Calgary.

138     I want to talk to you about a few areas, your choice of delivery mode, if I can call it that, your choice of format; some specific questions on your spoken word programming.  Then we will take a little closer look at the business plan and then some miscellaneous things like codes of ethics and equal opportunity codes and that sort of thing.

139     So starting essentially with an application for an AM station.


140     I know that there is a more viable business plan to be made for AM in the west and whatnot, but still it seems odd in this day and age that somebody would be jumping into the AM world.

141     Can you give me some idea why you didn't apply for an FM station?

142     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes, I can.

143     Basically we looked at, you know, particularly as we had mentioned before, not only serving Calgary but servicing the rural areas.  When you look at the footprint that the 700 signal puts on the province, you know that we pretty well will be able to cover the central and southern parts of Alberta.  Even the signal goes up as high as Edmonton, especially during the daytime.

144     We also are aware that in the format that we are proposing with the southern gospel music and spoken programming, that is an AM and works very well on the AM model.

145     The third aspect that we have looked at is the new technologies that is coming down the road.  It is already being tested.  I'm not the guru on this, however Mr. Henke(ph) is here and he could address that issue.


146     But there are new technologies coming for AM signals that is going to digitize ‑‑ my understanding of it and I could be here wrong when I'm saying this ‑‑ but digitize the signal and make it much higher quality.  In fact, testing is going on in the United States with this as well.  We believe with some of the research that we have done, is that that technology is not far away.  That will even give more of a quality sound than what the AM signal does right now.

147     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, just dealing with what we have today, because that is what we have to license.  We have seen technologies come and technologies go and a lot people have invested in the new, next greatest level and barely lived to tell the tale.  So let's hope it happens for you.

148     But dealing with what we have today, why is the quality of AM good enough for the type of music you want to do?  Don't your audience members want to hear the best they can get?

149     Why does southern gospel music work on AM when Beethoven doesn't?

150     MR. HUNSPERGER:  I'm not sure I can really answer that to your full satisfaction.


151     The only thing I can tell you is this:  When we were on the AM and only had the AM we always heard from our listeners on the contemporary gospel music side, "I can't stand it on AM and I can hardly wait until you get FM".  I mean we had that ‑‑ I'm sure Mr. Hunt can verify that ‑‑ over and over again.

152     Correct me if I'm wrong, Malcolm, but our AM, when we changed CJCA up in Edmonton to the southern gospel format, I do not believe we have had one comment from our audience, and we have been broadcasting now over a year ‑‑ not one comment of saying, "I sure wish you guys were on FM".

153     It seems that the older demographic is an AM demographic.  They are listening to the AM versus the FM, where the younger demographic doesn't even know that the AM band actually exists.  So it seems that the baby‑boomer kind of audience that loves this kind of music, they are the people who don't mind AM and don't really understand what all the fuss is about with FM and all the other stuff.

154     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We are going deaf is what you are trying to say.

‑‑‑ Laughter

155     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Good enough, I suppose.  Maybe we just notice, it's as simple as that.


156     What about the cost of AM?  Isn't it expensive?  You have to put these towers up, you have to have this big kind of wired field or whatever.

157     I'm looking at your projections, and you filed new ones this morning.  I'm trying to figure out where the costs are, because you have yourself starting to make a profit on year three.  So have you picked up a kind of used AM service somewhere or how are you managing this?

158     MR. HUNSPERGER:  I'm sorry, I didn't understand the last part of your question.

159     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, I will just simplify it:  How much is this going to cost to go fresh into AM in Calgary?

160     MR. HUNSPERGER:  We believe it's going to cost us about $1.5 million, especially in building the towers.

161     We are looking at the long‑term of these new technologies, plus we are looking at ‑‑ when we look at our overall operation, our AM operation was most successful this last year, even more successful than our two FMs.


162     We are reaching a market that no one else is reaching.  We are tapping into something that had been very successful.  We believe that even though our payment back of our investment is going to take a longer period of time, we are banking that that is going to happen not only because of the large audience we are reaching with the large signal, but we also believe that that is going to happen hopefully with this new technology.

163     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Is that $1.5 million everything?  I mean the land costs, the towers, the engineering costs?  Everything, $1.5 million?

164     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes, sir.

165     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You must really know where to buy land around here.  I'm seeing some prices that are pretty shocking.  But I won't make you give that away, it's probably the only piece of land that you can get at that price within 200 miles.

166     Okay.  Moving along.

167     I want to talk a little bit about format and why you chose it.

168     I'm not going to bring you over the information that you explained this morning.  I don't need to repeat that, the difference between the southern gospel and the more contemporary gospel.  That was pretty clear from the samples you played for us.


169     But what I don't quite understand is why you have the confidence that there is a market for this.  It's one thing to get people phoning you or stopping you on the street and saying, "Gosh, you know, Granny would sure like some southern, but don't give up on contemporary because the kids will raise a fuss."  But that is not a very scientific approach, it would seem to me, to spending $1.5 million on towers and hiring people and whatever.

170     So I went to your Ipsos Reid survey that you referred to today again in your opening remarks.  To be frank with you, I had trouble concluding that that survey told me anything.  It certainly didn't make me confident enough that you are onto a sure thing here.

171     So I would like to go over it with you.  I don't know if you have someone from Ipsos Reid here with you today or whether you have someone who feels comfortable digging into it a little bit with me?

172     MR. HUNSPERGER:  We can go through it.  I mean, we don't have anyone here with Ipsos Reid today and we are sorry about that.  However, any questions that we run up against that we can't answer here this morning, we will definitely get it to you before the end of the week.

173     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, the best you can do is always good enough.


174     Let me see if I understand the way you conducted this survey.

175     Oh, and I want to clear one thing up, one small point.

176     At the bottom of page 4 of your opening remarks today you said the:

"... sample was made up of 189 randomly drawn ..."

177     But in the Ipsos Reid survey that I read it said 179.  That's only 10 people, but which one is correct?

‑‑‑ Pause

178     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I think if it's 300 it has to be 179.

179     MR. HUNSPERGER:  You are right.  It's 179, I'm sorry.

180     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  so here is what I don't understand.  I don't understand where these 121 came from.  Just for the benefit of people who haven't read as much as we have on this, I will just give  a small precis.


181     If I understand correctly, what Ipsos Reid did here was to survey 300 people, a 300‑person sample; 179 of those were drawn randomly in a normal surveying fashion, but 121 of the respondents were sort of hand‑selected in some way from a group that I think you typify as either parishioners or somehow connected through business to your enterprise.

182     I would like to focus a little bit on that 121, because I am not a surveyor myself ‑‑ I don't do primary research ‑‑ but it seems to me that you defeat the whole purpose of a survey if you start hand‑selecting the people who are going to answer it.  But I may be wrong.

183     Can you, first of all, tell me more about where you got this 121, this smaller group?

184     MR. HUNSPERGER:  I will be more than happy to.

185     We got the smaller group from the Southern Gospel Reimer Promotions who have been promoting southern gospel in this area for over 13 years.  In fact, Mr. and Mrs. Reimer are one of the interveners for support of what we are doing here.

186     They basically have had a list of people, e‑mails that they send out of all what's going on with southern gospel, and we asked if they would send out a notice to their e‑mail to just say, "We would like to have Ipsos Reid call them up.  Would they be willing to receive such a call?".  So we kind of went in that direction.


187     If I can just make a comment here, I will agree with you that what we did here in Calgary we will not do again.

188     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I'm not the point the fickle finger of blame here, but I do want to try to assess with you just how much credibility we should put on those figures.

189     But I agree, you shouldn't do it again.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

190     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you.

191     What we believe, according to Ipsos Reid ‑‑ and I just talked with Chris again this morning to go through this one more time.  He is the man that really ran this whole ‑‑ gave this whole presentation to us.

192     He felt that the hundred ‑‑ well, first of all, he felt that the 179 respondents was good enough, that with the margin of error of about 7.1 he said to me this morning ‑‑ which is a little different than he has here ‑‑ but he said, "With 7.1 you have a good analysis that the general public somewhere in the vicinity of 20 percent does want your music station."

193     And, of course, the other one, you know we found it out to be very successful.


194     The reason why we will probably not do this is again is because we have always got a hold of Ipsos Reid to do us a marketing study on further applications that we have in to the CRTC, and we have found out that the random calling gives us even a higher percentage then what we have even with this Ipsos Reid survey.

195     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, that's not the way I read this.

196     Again, I am not a really sophisticated reader of statistics, but if I read the results of this survey correctly, you got very encouraging results from the hand‑selected crowd.  Overall about, I think, 70 percent or so thought they would listen to it or would really, really listen to it.

197     But with the other group, 179, the number dropped to 20 percent.

198     So if that is the real assessment of the market ‑‑ and we can get to business plans later ‑‑ but, generally speaking, is that a good base on which to choose a format and build a business plan; 20 percent?


199     Given your last statement, that there may be a margin of error there of 7 or more percent, we could be looking at 14 percent.  We could be looking at 27 too, but we could be looking at 14.  That would give me the willies if I were an investor.

200     MR HUNSPERGER:  If we got 14 percent of this market, sir, we would be jumping out of our skin.  We would be very happy.  Because our audience is really small.  I mean, we get about a 2 or a 3 percent when we actually have measured our audiences with our radio stations.

201     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I'm sorry to interrupt but, Mr. Hunsperger, surely you can't equate a 14 or 20 percent return on a randomly dialled survey, telephone survey, of 179 people living in a metropolitan area of over a million people.

202     You can't equate and straightline that with your share of audience three years down the road.  Surely not.

203     Do you?

204     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Well, we felt very good about it.  We felt the 20 percent was very good.

205     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  Well, that's your answer.  Thank you very much.  I think I will just move on to another area.


206     I can't help wondering if David Emerson in Vancouver hasn't done a survey like that though, you know.  He has gone down to some Tory headquarters and found 25 people who said they will back him next time around.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

207     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But, you know, it is not quite empirical, I don't think, that type of approach.  But anyway, we will see how it goes.

208     Let me talk about this new mix.

209     You were very clear on it today and I learned a lot in your opening statement and I'm grateful for that and I thank you for that, the difference of what you are going to do.

210     Let me make sure I have it right.  You are going to shift over to the new AM station the sort of southern side.  Right now you are trying to run a kind of split personality station.  Leave on the FM station the contemporary side.

211     Can you give me a breakdown, kind of in the sense of how much music, how much spoken word, what type of music ‑‑ well, you were pretty clear on that today, what type,so you don't need to be very long in that ‑‑ what type of spoken word in the sense of news, weather, brokered programming?

212     How will it break down between your two entities, should you be successful in obtaining this new licence?


213     MR. HUNT:  Well, I mean the majority of it obviously is going to be the southern gospel format, but we have 45.17 hours of spoken word, which is basically all of what you mentioned, the brokered time, the news and basically All of the talk components.  That is basically the mix between music and spoken word.

214     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  that will be the mix on both stations?

215     MR. HUNT:  No.  No, just on the AM station, on the station we have applied for.

216     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  This red light district we are running here is not as much fun as I thought it might be.  Somehow I'm hitting the button at the wrong time and I apologize for that.

217     What I was wondering, though, is:  Can you give me a kind of sense on the breakdown of both of them?  In other words, I know you are going to have 47.17 hours of spoken word on your new station and the rest will music.

218     What will you have on the existing station one it is reformatted, as it were, to be pure contemporary gospel?


219     MR. HUNT:  Exactly that.  We will play nothing but music and some syndicated programming that we are currently running on that radio station on the FM, and basically all of the ‑‑ other than the required news and whatnot that we have already, basically the news that we are currently running, all of that extra brokered time would go to our AM station.

220     And on the AM, the ratio is basically we play the 45.17 and the rest will be music and syndicated programming, which is music‑based.

221     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So almost 100 percent music on the FM station, but for news, weather, drive information?

222     MR. HUNT:  Right.

223     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Now, for the new one, you speak about 10 percent Canadian content.

224     But I noticed that this morning you were pretty enthusiastic in a couple of places in your opening remarks about just how much more possibility there was.

225     You were saying even now you are doing ‑‑ let me get the number right ‑‑ I think you said one and a half times that on a regular basis.  Then, in summing up ‑‑ yes, that was it, point 5 on page 10, you said:


"We have consistently exceeded the Canadian content requirements for our format.  In fact, our performance is one and a half times what the Radio Regulations call for."

226     At another point I was interested to hear you say that this Bill Gaither homecoming concert series really draws in the folks.  There was a point where you said ‑‑ I think you specifically mentioned some Canadian content.  I'm just looking for that on page 4 of your introductory remarks.

227     At any rate, I will keep looking.

228     MR. HUNT:  It's on page 5, I think.

‑‑‑ Pause

229     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes, okay.  Thank you very much.

230     So the question is:  Why not offer us more, because we love Canadian content?

231     MR. HUNT: And so do we.

232     I mean, bottom line is, the industry of southern gospel, because there are just a few ‑‑ like we are talking less than ‑‑

233     MR. HUNSPERGER:  One.


234     MR. HUNT:  There is one basically, and that's in Edmonton.  So it is difficult to create a really overpowering industry, a strong industry in Canada with one radio station powering the music.

235     Obviously the roots of this particular product, of southern gospel music, are rooted much deeper.  A lot of concerts.  And obviously a lot of this comes from the States.  That is generally the market it seems to be where we draw a lot of this music from.  But, again, because we are at 10 percent, that is what we are supposed to play, we consistently exceed that because the music is that good right now.  I think with more radio stations it would get even better and that number could go higher.

236     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, you know, the commercial radio stations are supposed to play 35, that is the rule, and if you review most of the applications here today you will see they are at 40.  We are very pushy on this, because we like to support.

237     I mean, I heard that twangy West Virginia sound you had there, and I guess if you are living in West Virginia that would make you feel all warm and comfy, but Wayne Gretzky may be looking for a new career soon and it would be nice to have him here singing.  Nice to give the boy a chance.


238     I wonder whether we couldn't induce you to go higher on that.  You are consistently beating it now.  I mean, would you feel comfortable at 15 percent?

239     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Here is our problem, Mr. Commissioner, and that is that what we have found ‑‑ and Malcolm can even speak more to this if you would like ‑‑ the distribution of southern gospel, because it is so new in Canada, is very poor.

240     I mean, we are playing music even from Canadian artists that are not in the book stores and are not anywhere to get.  And even we work very closely with music outlets to provide this music and they are pulling their hair out as well in this whole area of distribution.

241     So I would say that the southern gospel music format needs a few more years of trying to get their act together on this distribution.

242     We have heard some encouraging reports of companies in the retail outlet for music looking at getting involved in distribution, which, as you know, is a huge market, and we go from there.

243     I don't know if Mr. Hunt wants to add anything more to that, but that is our problem.

244     MR. HUNT:  And it is a problem, you know.  The book stores have difficulty stocking the stuff that we are playing.


245     We obviously have connections with record labels even before the one main distribution outlet, which is CMC distribution out of Ontario.  They don't even carry the majority of the stuff that we get.  We get our stuff sent to us directly by those labels.

246     In terms of Canadian content, it is a lot of just family ‑‑ families basically that are singing.  And they are supporting themselves by travelling all over the country.  Often they have a difficult time of that because, I mean, outside of the one market where they can come and know that there is strong radio, I mean they basically are going from venue to venue and trying their best to make a go of it.

247     I think if we had more of this type of radio offered to them, I am more than positive that the industry would grow in Canada and the more quality talent as well.

248     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Still, you tease us, don't you?  You tell us you are doing one and a half times and kind of hold it out there.

249     Okay, I have your answer on that.

250     Let me see if I can approach the music side of your life from one other little kind of direction.


251     There are no rules on AM radios with regard to guarantees, but on FM ‑‑ if this were an FM channel, the station you were applying for ‑‑ you would have to guarantee that 95 percent of your format, non‑classical religious format ‑‑ or 95 percent of your content would comply with your format.  On AM there is no rule that says that.

252     Would you be prepared to apply that rule to your AM station, should you be successful in getting it, the same rule you have on your FM now?

253     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Is that rule talking about keeping the same music on the AM format?

254     Is that what you are saying?

255     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes.  In other words, not switching your format to ‑‑ right now sort of the world is open to you because there isn't the same strict rule on AM as there is on FM with regard to format.

256     MR. HUNSPERGER:  We are the only broadcaster, if I am correct in making this bold statement ‑‑ we are the only broadcaster in this room that has stuck to the same format for 12 years.


257     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I think Mr. Evanov may challenge you on that.  He is pretty proud of his reputation in that area too, but I will let you duke it out at the break.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

258     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So what you are telling me is you are happy to accept a COL to stick with that format, the format you have proposed, the same sort of rule you would have if it were an FM station?

259     MR. HUNSPERGER:  If that would make the difference of whether we get our licence or not, we would strongly consider it.

260     Here is our problem, sir:  As you know, the huge investment we are making on this station, we have not flipped formats, we are not intending to flip formats.  You know, we want to continue to even get into other areas where we continue to bring in the gospel music into other locations across this country.

261     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So, if I understand, your answer is you are of good faith, but you would rather not have a COL?

262     MR. HUNSPERGER:  That is probably correct.

263     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  Let's get into spoken word.


264     45.17 hours a day, 7.17 hours ‑‑ if I have anything wrong, by the way, jump in and correct me ‑‑ 17.17 hours would be news weather, et cetera.

265     I will get back to that, but what will the other 38 be?  I'm not as clear on that.

266     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Most of that is going to be what we would call "paid spoken word programming".  As we had mentioned in our opening statements, like "Love Worth Finding", "Turning Point", those kinds of programs.

267     Our budget at this point says that we are really only going to put about 25 hours.  From a budget point of view we have actually just included 25 hours.  But we are asking, obviously, for the opportunity to put more hours if the need is there, that we could add that because it is a revenue source.

‑‑‑ Pause

268     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So mostly sold time to other program producers, creators.

269     MR. HUNSPERGER:  That is correct.

270     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So that brings me to a few other questions.

271     I'm going to bounce around a little bit on this, but on the economics side, how does that affect your revenue?


272     When you sell a half an hour of time to another program creator, an independent program creator, who gets the advertising revenue for that?

273     Do you sell it?  Is it a gross sale, whatever it is for that half hour, and they get the advertising time, or do you insert advertising in that programming?

274     MR. HUNSPERGER:  No, it's a gross sale and they get the advertising in that time.

275     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  All right.

276     Now, content.

277     How do you control the content and the appropriateness of this type of purchased and inserted programming?

278     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Well, any buyer who wants to come onto the station must send a pilot of the program.  We then of course listen to it to make sure that it would be the kind of a program that would be quality as far as radio and the kind of program that we would accept, which would be things like it is not a program that ‑‑ what we would accept is that it is a program positive initiatives, helping people, these kind of things, versus any kind of negative types of programming.  Those types of programming we turn down.


279     What we have done over the last 12 years up at CJCA, we have had this type of programming on basically from 6 o'clock at night until about 11 o'clock at night where commercial revenue isn't that high anyway.

280     The other thing, that over the 12‑year period that we have been broadcasting these programs, we have never received a complaint, nor have you from the Commission received a complaint.

281     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  After you get the pilot and you approve it, then it starts to come in typically sort of in half hour segments once a week?

282     Would that be typical?

283     MR. HUNT:  That's correct.  Yes.

284     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Then what do you do?  Do you pre‑screen each half hour or do you just assume, "Well, I have done the pilot and this is acceptable and we have had 12 years, you know, and everything is fine" and play it, or do you screen it?

285     How do you deal with it?

286     MR. HUNSPERGER:  The theme of each of the programs usually comes in on a cue sheet so we know exactly the theme of what they are talking about.  And of course if anything alerts us to something that we wouldn't air, we would of course review it and then make a decision.


287     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So you read the kind of table of contents, if I can use a literary term, borrow a literary term, and then as long as it doesn't offend the smell meter, I guess is about all we can say, the smell test, then you go with it?

288     MR. HUNSPERGER:  That's correct.  And sometimes, like, for example, you know, if something is played that we felt was not what we want on the station, we will alert the producer and say, "You know, that last program", or that program a week ago or whatever, "was bordering on something that we would not prefer to run."

289     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Now, where do most of these programs come from, Canada or the United States or the world?

290     You have had a lot of experience.  Where do you get them?

291     MR. HUNSPERGER:  The United States.

292     We are doing our level best to try to get Canadians, and particularly ‑‑ we are obviously in Alberta ‑‑ trying to get Albertans to start producing programs.  We continue to encourage that.  The problem is that as soon as they find out there is a cost to it, that's when most of them back down.


293     However, we, for example this last year, have been producing out of our station a program on diabetes.  This lady had started this program and it is aired every Sunday night at 9 o'clock on CJCA.  It is an encouragement for us to see a local person grab a hold of an idea and now has supporters with the Diabetes Association and that kind of thing behind her.  She is starting to be kind of a pilot Canadian program that hopefully we can encourage more to get involved with.

294     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  What is the breakdown between kind of Christian‑theme, religious‑theme programming that you are buying and wellness, the sort of diabetes, health, wellness lifestyle?

295     Can you give me some sense of how the programming breaks down as to themes and content?

296     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Ninety‑five percent would be from a religious theme and the other 5 percent (off microphone).

297     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So this 95 percent, how do you guarantee the kind of balance that we insist on here in Canada if it is being produced by people who don't have the same code that we have?

298     How do you work with that?


299     MR. HUNSPERGER:  First of all, they are well aware of our code.

300     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I think it's me who is doing this.  I'm not touching it.

301     Hello?  Whoever is in charge of the light, I'm not touching mine any more so you can turn it on, or off if you like.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

302     MR. HUNSPERGER:  If I can get my thought here again.

303     All of the programming ‑‑ I should say 96‑97 percent of the programming that we play all have Canadian offices, all have Canadian presidents and boards and offices located either in Montreal or Ontario, or some of them out in the British Columbia area.

304     We work with these people on a regular basis.  They of course are a subconnection to the main ministry that is in the States, and they really regulate themselves by keeping their home ministry, if you want to say, down in the States, very alert to what happens here.

305     Sorry, I don't know who shut that off.

306     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It wasn't me that time.  My evil twin.


307     I think we may not quite be talking about the same thing, though, because it IS one thing to have an acceptable sort of content in the sense that it doesn't offend people, but I think it is quite another to have content that is both inoffensive and balanced.

308     I'm trying to find the place in your supplementary brief where you spoke of balanced programming.  I had difficulty with it, because your explanation ‑‑ I'm going by memory here, but I'm almost certain I'm right ‑‑ your explanation of balance was that you are prepared to sell commercially available time on your radio station to other groups if they want it.

309     But if you will permit me to say so, that doesn't quite cut it with our religious balance policy here in Canada.  Each program doesn't necessarily have to be a balanced little jewel in and of itself, but overall your programming has to show a balance.


310     So let's take a very simple example.  If you are going to do some sort of programming on this whole Danish cartoon situation and it will be on freedom of speech, it will be on religious freedom, it will be on the sense of freedoms being offended, it wouldn't be appropriate under our policy to simply be drawing all of your information, or even 95 percent of it from Christian‑based programmers.

311     There would also have to be a sense that the other sides of these stories were represented.  The obvious sides one can think of, of course, are Muslim approaches to it, Israeli approaches to it, Judaic historic approaches to these sorts of questions.

312     When I  read your supplementary brief, when I hear you here this morning, I don't see where you can get this kind of balance when in fact what you are doing is accepting programming that may not be offensive, but has nothing on the other side in the sense of a complete coverage of thoughts and beliefs.

313     I'm sorry to have gone on so long, but I do have some trouble finding that in your application and in your supplementary brief and in what you have said to me today.  I don't find that piece of the pie.


314     MR. HUNSPERGER:  First of all, when it comes to matters of balance and matters of public concern we have absolutely no problem in accepting the Commission's regulation on balance, that if an issue comes up of matters of public concern either we will get someone else in to explain the opposite side of the equation, or we ourselves, our on‑air staff members or whatever, will explain the opposite side to make sure that everybody knows that there is two sides to this matter of public concern.

315     What I think you are talking about here is the Regulations when you view yourself as a religious broadcaster.

316     We do not view ourselves as a religious broadcaster.  We view ourselves as a commercial broadcaster reaching out to a segment of the culture that likes this niche format.  In the same way that a modern rock station would reach out to their modern rock fans or whatever, we are trying to do the same thing.  That's why we do not enter into that area of then providing all other religions on there, because we don't view ourselves in that regard.

317     However, I want to underline again that if there was ever an issue of public concern, a matter of public issue, we would definitely make sure that the balance is broadcast.


318     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, I don't approach this ‑‑ and it will be up to myself and all my colleagues to review the transcript and the record of this proceeding and I may be standing alone on this, but we have ample staff and we have legal assistance and whatnot.

319     But my approach to the Broadcasting Act is very different than my approach to the Income Tax Act for example.  And I mean that.  I don't see it as something that if you can avoid it, that's okay.  If you can find another way to view yourself, as you say it, that's okay.

320     We are dealing with some pretty broad policy objectives here and it would be my understanding ‑‑ and I may be corrected by legal staff or by my colleagues later ‑‑ but it would be my understanding that if you are in fact playing the amount of religious spoken word programming ‑‑ it would be different if you were all music, I grant you that ‑‑ but the amount of religious‑based spoken word programming that you are playing, then I think your duty is much broader than what you have described to me here today.


321     I believe that your duty is ‑‑ and perhaps I shouldn't be giving legal opinions from the bench, I will probably be glowing bright red to learn later that I am incorrect ‑‑ but I think that there is a general duty to comply with the policy guidelines, and that because you don't declare yourself to be a religious program, I don't know if that would be enough.

322     But we will all have benefit ‑‑ and I certainly encourage you or your counsel, if you have counsel here, to speak with Ms Bennett, our legal counsel, to exchange views at the break and that sort of thing.  And if there are questions you have that you may want to clarify later, there are different phases coming up here.

323     But speaking only for myself now, I don't think that the approach that you have described here today quite makes it.  Once you get into the realm of spoken word and brokered programming and dealing with religious themes, it is my understanding that our policy directs you to have a much more balanced approach.

324     Now we having another policy ‑‑ moving right along ‑‑ and I'm sorry to have taken so long with this ‑‑ that we talk about ethics as well.  I'm sure you understand what that is all about.

325     One of our key concerns, of course, is in programs, spoken word programs, appealing for donations.


326     Now, any of the programs that are on in your six hours of programming now, do any of these brokered programmers, the hosts of these religious programmers, make appeals for donations?

327     MR. HUNSPERGER:  No, sir.

328     For the most part, they usually offer premiums, what we call premiums, or books or whatever, and if people want this book they can send in money to get the book.

329     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But they are not asking people to sit down and write a cheque.

330     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Mostly not.

331     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Mostly not.

332     Some are then?

333     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Well, we have had the odd commercial at the end of the year where the programmer would say ‑‑ it's at the end of the year, we have had some difficult times, if you can help us, please send it in.

334     But it is usually a separate commercial that they buy versus in their program.


335     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You are aware of our policy regarding alarming people and the ethical duty that broadcasters have to ensure that, you know, the sort ‑‑ many of the people who listen to these are people who are, even by your own admission, in the last ‑‑ how can I put this kindly ‑‑ the last demographic slice, you know, section, and they maybe feel more vulnerable and are more easily persuaded to do something that perhaps 10 years earlier they might not have done, in the sense of signing over a good deal of money they can ill afford.

336     You are aware of our prohibition on that sort of fund‑raising.

337     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes, sir.

338     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.

339     I wanted to ask you very quickly about revenues and money.

340     Good old money always comes into it.  The reason we get into is because we want to see whether the business plan that you have put before us warrants the Commission assigning to you some frequency, publicly owned frequency, and will it be used and will it be used successfully.

341     Because we may be a little harsh in our questioning here, but the point of it is if you get though it we want you to succeed.  So obviously if your financial plans don't seem to make it, we are concerned about that.


342     I noticed one thing.  I have a number of question on that, not too many.  We have had a long morning already.

343     But I noticed in the information you handed out here today ‑‑ excuse me for one second.

‑‑‑ Pause

344     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I'm just doing a time check there, which I seem to have misplaced and I need.

345     Do you have today's handout, Elizabeth?  Yes.  I don't know what I did with mine.  Oh, here it is.  I have it.  Sorry.  Too much paper.  Too many heads under my hat.

346     You handed to us today a revised account of your financial operations, the last page appended to your remarks today.  In that you cleared up the matter of the 16,000 versus 8,000 CTD, and I am very grateful for that.  Thank you.

347     I think we can take it as given now that the 16 number was right and the 8,000 was a mistake.

348     But then, when I go to "Administration and General Expenses" I notice that it is quite a bit lower than on the original version of this chart that you handed to us.

349     I wonder if you could explain why that is.  I mean, really a lot lower.


350     MS GILESPIE:  Yes, correct.

351     The original Excel spreadsheets that were originally sent in with the application have the correct numbers which are reflected in this sheet that you have right here, other than the 8,000.

352     Our consultant, when they transposed the Excel spreadsheet into the Schedule 4.1 that was originally put in had the errors.

353     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I see.  So this one is accurate.  This is the one.

354     MS GILESPIE:  This is the accurate one, yes.

355     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.

356     Now, when I look at the programming expenses, they don't look huge to me.  Is it because you are almost doing no programming on your own, that it is mostly voice track and then purchased spoken word programming?

357     MS GILESPIE:  In regards to the staffing, I can address that to Malcolm,

358     But mostly, primarily we share a lot of the expenses, the operational expenses, with the other three stations.

359     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  With the other three?


360     MS GILESPIE:  Yes.

361     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Which brings me ‑‑

362     MS GILESPIE:  It would be the other three stations and, depending on the type of duties that are performed, some would be divided between three stations, being our production and that kind of stuff, and divided between two stations if the staff was on‑air.

363     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I see.

364     So let's get back to news, weather and drive time stuff, which I said I would put off for a while.  It is time to look at it, because in the sense of these projections how many people are you going to have dedicated to this station, this AM station?

365     How many person‑years will be dedicated to this station versus the existing FM?

366     MS GILESPIE:  Okay.  I will let Malcolm address that one with his staff.

367     MR. HUNT:  This particular station will have two people basically that we will bring on and the rest of it will be synergized with our other station.  We will be utilizing the people that we already have to take care of the rest of it.


368     I mean, we are in the same building as our FM station ‑‑ or we would be in the same building as our FM station.

369     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  What will the two new people be?  What kinds of jobs will they have?

370     MR. HUNT:  Basically mornings would be ‑‑ obviously the first person would be our morning show host.  They would also input a variety of programs.

371     The other person would primarily be co‑hosting and many of the other programming duties that are specific to that station, and compiling any of the local news items that we need as well.

372     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  What about the drive time returning home from work?

373     MR. HUNT:  Voice track initially.

374     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Really?

375     MR. HUNT:  Yes.  But we will have live weather and live traffic as well during those times.

376     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So essentially are you going to play the same news on your FM as on your AM?

377     MR. HUNT:  No, they are customized differently.


378     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  The same people reading it, though, I suppose?  Same journalists?

379     MR. HUNT:  Yes.

380     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So why would you change it?  Just because you are trying to ‑‑ your signal goes out farther, you want more regional input?

381     MR. HUNT:  Why would we change it?

382     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes.  Why would you have it different?  Why not just play the same, one is on the FM and the other is on the AM?

383     MR. HUNT:  Well, we have to customize them different because the names are different, but I mean ‑‑

384     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Oh, that's the only difference.

385     MR. HUNT:  Yes.  I mean the content will be the same.

386     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Exactly the same content.

387     MR. HUNT:  Essentially.


388     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So even though your signal goes way out farther, miles and miles and miles across this lovely prairie that we have depicted behind us here, you wouldn't change it?  You wouldn't bring in more rural and more regional news and events of more rural and regional interest?

389     MR. HUNT:  It is regional now.

390     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It is?

391     MR. HUNT:  Yes.

392     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But surely the FM signal in the sense of contour doesn't hold a candle to this AM one.

393     MR. HUNT:  No.

394     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But still no changes?

395     MR. HUNT:  No.

396     MR. HUNSPERGER:  If I could just comment?

397     There is a bit of a change.  For example, the on‑air FM people make their own news to the local aspect of Calgary.  Right?  So there is a bit of a difference compared to what happens with the AM.

398     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  These are the morning hosts you mean.

399     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes, sir.


400     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I don't want to denigrate it, but are we just talking about the happy talk here between the host and hostess, or the two hosts, the two hostesses, or are we talking about something substantial like an arts report or something, or whatever passes for an arts report in the world of gospel?  I guess it would be ‑‑ well, I don't know, some sort of show I suppose that's in town.

401     MR. HUNT:  Obviously the differences between the formats have a different type of entertainment news that they would carry.

402     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Oh, it's entertainment news and that sort of thing?

403     MR. HUNT:  That would be some, yes.

404     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.

405     I just want to ask you, in one of your ‑‑ I have so many pieces of paper in front of me now I'm beginning to look like an income tax lawyer I suppose, or an Enron executive, one or the other.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

406     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  When I was looking at one of your revenue spreadsheets there was a category called "Other" in brackets "Contra".

407     Can you explain what that is all about, because it Is quite a lot of money over seven years?  What is "Contra"?


408     MS GILESPIE:  "Contra" is the exchange of goods and services for advertising.  It is heavier in the first couple of years primarily because we use that in exchange for media advertising and promotional advertising when we start up.

409     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So give me some examples.

410     MS GILESPIE:  Newspaper ads, billboards, any kind of promotional activity that we would give them advertising on our station in exchange for advertising.

411     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So it's not getting the wall‑to‑wall carpeting put in or something like that?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

412     MS GILESPIE:  That would be nice, but no.

413     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.

414     What type of advertisers are you getting?  Because I'm just not quite sure how you measure you audience, because you don't have the normal measurement facilities available to you, and services.

415     So how do you go to an advertiser and say, "Well, we think our audience is `X' so we think our rate card should be `Y', so how would you like to buy some time?"

416     How does that work?


417     MR. BURROWS:  Well, with this new application we have an older demographic, as we mentioned earlier, and so I think for that demographic, such as myself, you know, I am buying a different type of product.  I think I mentioned the RV travel, situations where people of my age group are more interested in.  Those are the people we would be going for.

418     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But you are not the only one going for that demographic in this city.  I have reviewed the formats of all of the other radio stations and I have reviewed the formats of some of the other applicants here.  Assuming we licensed more than one you are going to be fighting it out.  They can go to the advertisers and say, "Here is our rating this month in the last period.  These are the viewers we have.  We have empirical data.  So our rates are" so many dollars per minute or per half minute, however you do it.

419     How do you do that?

420     MR. HUNSPERGER:  If I could answer that question for you?


421     The interesting thing that we had already said was:  First of all, we have a loyal listening audience.  The thing that has amazed us over the years is that there are times that we do a live on location, for example, and we can sell as many cars or more cars then some of the bigger stations within the market that have the big numbers.

422     It is partly because of the way we do it.  We bring a live show on there versus a cut‑in, 60‑second cut‑in, and that kind of thing.

423     The other thing is that our audiences are very loyal.  They recognize that it is the advertiser on our station that is allowing them to have their favourite kind of music come to the market.

424     Believe it or not, they go to our advertisers and say, "I'm here purchasing a product from you because you advertise on my favourite radio station".  Most businesses that have commented to us about that have said this is the first time that they have heard that kind of comment from a potential buyer.

425     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  The Chairman has asked me if we could all take a break now.  I think he is a kind man and he thinks everybody should have a comfort break, and I will do that.


426     I do have just a few more questions along this same line.  Just to give you something to think about while we are all not thinking, I am interested in this loyal audience in the sense that it can't be measured accurately, and in the sense that you are about to cut it in two, so it is going to be smaller, at least for a while, on each station, and how that impacts on the kind of revenue projections that I see in front of me here, which are, you know, fairly rosy.

427     You see yourself in the black by year three.  Even some of the experienced commercial operators don't have that kind of a positive projection.  So maybe we can have a very short discussion after the break.

428     Mr. Chairman, how long do you want to give them?

429     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Stuart.

430     We will resume in 15 minutes.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1040 / Suspension à 1040

‑‑‑ Upon resuming 1115  / Reprise à 1115

431     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  A l'ordre, si'l vous plaît.

432     Mr. Langford, for the continuation of this item.

433     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes.  I have almost completed my questions.  I just really wanted to return to the notion of how precisely you sell and the kind of obstacles you foresee and how you will get around them.


434     I do notice, as we talked before, that a good deal of your revenue comes from brokered programming, so that is pretty well a sure thing and I understand that.

435     This "Contra" has been explained now and I see that revenue stream.

436     But I do have some concerns about the local advertising in the sense, as I said before the break, that the moment you launch this station you have effectively split your audience.  I don't know how you foresee ‑‑ maybe that is a good place to start.

437     What will the split be?  What percentage of your audience will travel immediately over to your new AM station?

438     MR. HUNSPERGER:  The split, we are not splitting our audience.  As we had mentioned before in our opening comment, the people who like southern gospel do not like contemporary and therefore are not listening to our station.  Those who like contemporary do not like southern gospel.


439     I will give you an illustration.  I had lunch last week with a man who is a businessman, has his own business, and he is a loyal listener of our AM southern gospel music station up in Edmonton.  We do a crossover promotion where we say ‑‑ in effect the promotion says, "Maybe you know somebody who likes this music", and we play some contemporary music and then tell them about our sister station on the FM.  He says to me, "I don't know anybody that would like that kind of music."

440     So we have learned from our Edmonton example.  We are not splitting our audience with FM.  We are, in essence, creating a whole new audience.

441     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Ah, well that is very helpful.  Thank you.

442     Now that you have repeated it, I do recall that you said that in your opening statement.  So that is another good reason why you shouldn't prepare your questions in advance I suppose.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

443     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  How deep are your advertiser's pockets?

444     I'm going by some experience at a Kitchener, Ontario hearing we had, and some other hearings, where we have had some applications for Christian music and it was pretty clear from those applicants ‑‑ and if this doesn't apply in your world I'm confident you will tell me.


445     It was clear from those applicants that they recognized they had a limited number of advertisers.  They weren't going to get any national advertising to begin with.  They weren't going to get the biggest advertisers in town.  But they could, on the other side, be sure they would get the Christian book store and some other small business people, entrepreneurs who had very deep Christian beliefs and very much wanted to support this station, very much wanted their children listening to this kind of music rather than to Eminem or something like that, and felt about those stations almost about the way some people feel about public broadcasting in the United States, they were willing to reach into their pocket and support it and change their advertising strategies to do so.

446     But you have to ask yourself how deep their pockets are.  If they are supporting one of your stations now, are they deep enough that they will support two, financially?

447     MR. HUNSPERGER:  What we have found in the Edmonton ‑‑ here again, thank the Good Lord we can look to our Edmonton situation.  Our Edmonton situation picks up new advertisers in the same way that our FM picked up new advertisers.


448     And we are finding that even though we don't necessarily get all of the traditional advertisers that other broadcasters do, we are starting to see a light at the end of the tunnel.

449     I will give you an example.  Because of the growth in gospel music, people like Wal‑Mart are starting to put a huge segment in their store for gospel music.  We have actually had, a couple of times, Wal‑Mart ads that encourage people to go pick up Michael W. Smith at Wal‑Mart.  We are beginning to see that.

450     We know what is happening down in the United States, where all the big advertisers are advertising on the gospel music radio stations, and we kind of patterned ourselves after the Dallas station, an FM Dallas station which brings in about $15 million profit every year.

451     But we look at them and we see that there is light at the end of the tunnel and we begin to see that little by little here, although we still know that the major agencies are located in areas that we are not yet located.


452     When members of those agencies come out to Alberta and they hear our station, which is different than many of the low‑powered FM stations ‑‑ our programming is way different and when they hear ours they go "Oh, this is great.  We should have this in Toronto", or whatever.

453     So we believe that as we continue and are able to extend this, that pie starts opening up a little more to us.  But, in the meantime, we get very loyal people and we do get the major advertisers once in a while as well.

454     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you for that.

455     Just a couple of more quickies on other very small areas ‑‑ not small in importance, but small in the sense of the amount of time we have to spend on them.

456     There are a number of other elements to owning a scarce public ‑‑ or at least renting, using, having to write to ‑‑ a scarce public resource like the airwaves that this Commission generally encourages broadcasters to embrace, and to embrace in a very positive and meaningful spirit, even though we don't necessarily go around policing small broadcasters and whatnot.

457     I'm talking about reflecting cultural and equitable diversity in your hiring practices and in your promoting practices.


458     When I read your responses, in the supplementary brief and the interrogatories, to some earlier questions on that in the paper part of this process, the strongest statement I could find ‑‑ and there may be others, but the strongest one I could find was that you would hire the best qualified people for jobs.

459     I would suggest to you that everybody, of course, wants the best qualified person in every job but, at the same time, if we are going to help women and visible minority groups and the handicapped, sometimes you have to take another approach to it.  I don't want to call it "second best", because it isn't.  I don't want to appear to be preaching a sermon, because I am not qualified, but I did find that in your responses in that area I wasn't quite clear what your strategy would be.

460     As you have three stations already, maybe you can just give me a sense of whether you are reaching out into other communities in your hiring practices and in your promotion practices?

461     MR. HUNSPERGER:  I will talk to that.

462     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I certainly see a lot of women at the table, so you are off to a good start there.  We are on a 50:50 balance.

463     How about the other side of the equation?


464     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Like announcers and ‑‑

465     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Anybody.  You know, do you have any aboriginal people on your staff?  Do you have any visible minorities?  Do you have any handicapped people on any of your payrolls anywhere?

466     MR. HUNSPERGER:  We do have visible minorities on our payroll.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

467     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Holly is waving her hand.  But we have other staff members as well.

468     Handicapped, not at this moment, no, we don't have anybody that would be what you would consider handicapped.

469     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Are you aware of the Commission policies in this area?

470     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes, and we have no problem with them whatsoever.

471     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You support them?

472     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Absolutely.

473     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.

474     Those are my questions, Mr. Chair.


475     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Langford.

476     Commissioners...?

477     Legal counsel...?

478     MS BENNETT:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

479     I just have two small matters to follow up on.

480     During his discussion with you Mr. Langford talked about the guidelines on ethics which are set out in the Commission's religious programming policy.  I just wanted to follow up on that point.

481     As you are probably aware, the Commission generally expects licensees who broadcast religious programming to adhere to those guidelines.

482     I would just like to ask you to comment on the possibility of the Commission imposing that adherence as a condition of licence.

483     MR. HUNSPERGER:  We have no problem with the Code of Ethics.

484     MS BENNETT:  And you would be willing to operate under those ethics as a condition of licence?

485     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.

486     MS BENNETT:  Okay.  Thank you.


487     The last thing I just wanted to mention is, for all interested parties it touches, amended Schedule 4.1 that was filed this morning will be placed on the top of the public file in the Commission's public exam room.

488     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you.

489     MS BENNETT:  Those are my questions.  Thank you.

490     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, counsel.

491     Just before we close, in your own words could you briefly give us the reasons why the Commission should retain your application?

492     You can also use this opportunity to tell us what we should know and what we haven't asked for.

493     So it is up to you.

494     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

495     I would like to go back just a little.  We had our little huddle in the break and I just wanted to clarify a couple of things that we had gone over with Mr. Langford in our closing remarks.

496     First, about the research.


497     When it comes down to the 20 percent of the random respondents who said they would like our kind of radio station, you know if you go on this 7 percent plus or minus you have about a 12.9 versus a 27.1 either way.

498     The interesting thing that we look at is what is happening in our other markets here in Alberta as well.  We have done an Ipsos Reid survey in Lethbridge, 27 per cent of the random respondents.  We have done one, for example, in Fort McMurray, 33 percent of the random respondents.

499     So we know that the 20 percent is a good mark.

500     We also wanted to say that even if it goes as low as 12 percent and we view ourselves as a niche broadcaster, I'm sure that there are other broadcasters in this room this morning that if they could get 12 percent on a random survey within the market that they want to receive, they would be ecstatic.

501     We do translate that 20 percent into being a 2 to 3 percent share of the market.  You know, we are trying to do that in a very realistic way.

502     The other item, on the Cancon that was mentioned.

503     We mentioned in our statement that we are doing more than 10 percent.


504     If you look back at the decision that the CRTC gave us when you gave us the FM radio station in Edmonton, the CRTC encouraged us to do more than 10 percent.  We have done that.  We seriously look onto doing that and, as we said, we are now at 15 percent.

505     No, we would like to keep the requirement at 10 percent but, as we have shown in the past, we would continue to exceed that and we would like to be on the happy side of the situation versus on the negative side of it.

506     I did not understand, Mr. Langford, your questioning on the 95 percent, committed to that as a condition of licence for the category of music in the subcategory.

507     We would absolutely accept that as a condition of licence.

508     And I am sorry, Mr. Hunt didn't know whether he should kick me in the shins when I was answering you.  I have told him next time kick me in the shins, tell me to shut up and he would answer that question.  So I'm sorry about that.

509     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I may not have asked the question very clearly, but I'm grateful to have your clarification on the answer.  Thank you.

510     MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you.


511     I think that's all that we have to say, other than to say that we are doing it in Edmonton, it has been successful.  We are relying on what we are doing in Edmonton.  We believe because of the growing market in Calgary the same thing is going to happen in Calgary.

512     We have an investor who is a very astute businessman and he would not be supporting this if he did not think otherwise.

513     So we thank you so much for allowing us to be in front of you and we are sorry for our nervousness and whatever, but you have been very gracious and thank you.

514     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Hunsperger, and thank you to your colleagues.

515     Ms Secretary, we will move to the next item.  We will hear the oral presentation before breaking for lunch.

516     THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

517     If we could perhaps take a couple of minutes for the set up of the second applicant.

518     Thank you.

519     THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.  So we will take a five‑minute break.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1125 / Suspension à 1125


‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1130 / Reprise à 1130

520     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  A l'ordre, si'l vous plaît.

521     Ms Secretary...?

522     THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

523     We will now go on to proceeding with Item 2 on the Agenda, which is an Application by CHUM Limited for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Calgary.

524     The new station would operate on frequency 90.3 MHz (channel 212C1) with an average effective radiated power of 100,000 watts, non‑directional antenna height of 298.5 metres.

525     Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Paul Ski, who will introduce his colleagues, and then you will have 20 minutes for your presentation.

526     Mr. Ski...?

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

527     MR. SKI:  Thank you very much.

528     Good morning, Mr. Vice‑Chair and Members of the Commission and welcome to Calgary.

529     We are very pleased to be here today to present CHUM's application for a new Calgary radio station, Energy FM.


530     My name is Paul Ski and I am Executive Vice‑President, Radio, for CHUM Limited.  In this role, I oversee the operations of our 33 radio stations from Halifax to Victoria.

531     Before we begin our formal presentation, I would like to take this opportunity to introduce the members of our Panel.

532     To my right, your left, is Rob Farina, Program Director for CHUM FM, Canada's highest rated commercial radio station.  Rob will help us explain the Hot AC format we are proposing and why we think this format will be of benefit to both the Calgary community and Canadian artists.

533     To Rob's right is Duff Roman, Vice‑President of Industry Affairs for CHUM Radio.  Duff's expertise in the radio industry spans over five decades and we are all very proud that in two weeks he will be inducted into the Canadian Music Industry Hall of Fame in recognition of his lifetime of supporting the Canadian music industry.

534     Duff is here to help outline and discuss the extensive series of Canadian Talent Development initiatives that we are proposing today.


535     To my left, your right, is Kerry French, Director of Research for CHUM's radio stations, who is here to speak to our research on the Calgary market.

536     In the back row, starting on the far left, your right, is Jay Switzer, CHUM Limited's President and CEO.

537     To Jay's right is Kevin Goldstein, CHUM's Director of Regulatory Affairs, who is here to address any regulatory questions arising from our application.

538     To his right is Larry Leblanc, one of Canada's foremost music industry journalists who prepared a report for our application concerning the benefits of the initiatives we are proposing for emerging independent Canadian artists.

539     Next to Larry, the other Goldstein, Ken Goldstein, President of Communications Management Inc., who conducted the economic research for our application.

540     I would also like to note the presence in the audience today of CHUM Chairman, Jim Waters, and Vice‑Chairman, Ron Waters, as well as long‑time CHUM board member Fred Sherratt.

541     I would like to now to turn to Jay to begin our formal presentation.

542     Jay...?


543     MR. SWITZER:  Thank you and good morning, everyone, Mr. Vice‑Chair, Members of the Commission.

544     I would like to just add what a privilege it is for us here today to appear before you, this your first hearing, Mr. Vice‑Chair Arpin, in our home town ‑‑ in my home town.  We congratulate you on your new responsibilities and wish you every success.

545     On behalf of CHUM Limited it gives me great pleasure to be here today proposing what we believe will be an important addition to the local Calgary radio market.  As a native Calgarian, I must say, I am truly excited at the possibility of launching a new FM radio station in this great city.

546     Calgary is a community that is not just growing economically, but one that is becoming increasingly diverse and has emerged as a centre of artistic excellence.  All over this city live music venues like the Hi Fi Club, Ironwood and the Rusty Cage are showcasing the best Calgary has to offer.


547     Local clubs like the Mint, Melrose on 17th, The Living Room and The Mercury all flourish in and around 17th Avenue, known here as the "Red Mile", the centre of the universe for die‑hard Flames fans.  The scene here is brimming with musical talent, with scores of emerging Canadian bands looking for their next big break.

548     Energy FM will become a new voice for this vibrant city, and together with our local television station CityTV, we will create a centre for excellence in downtown Calgary for the promotion of local talent and local groups looking for exposure.

549     Last Friday night we celebrated the first anniversary of the launch of our newest radio station 91.7 The Bounce in Edmonton.

550     For those of you who have not been to Edmonton recently, we have helped revitalize Jasper Avenue with our investment in a state‑of‑the‑art media centre that houses CityTV, Access Media Group and 91.7 The Bounce.  It has become a focal point for local organizations and young Edmontonians.

551     We want to create the same kind of excitement and success here in Calgary.

552     Paul and his team will now take you through our plans for the Calgary radio market and the initiatives that will not only help create success here in Calgary, but also provide support to artists from coast to coast to coast.


553     MR. SKI:  As part of the creation of this application, we spoke to hundreds of Calgarians, ranging from local community, political and business leaders, ethno‑cultural groups, aboriginal groups, to those involved in the independent music scene.  We wanted to know what Calgarians wanted from a new Calgary radio station.

554     Along with our formal research, this direct community input was very important as we crafted our application and we were pleased that in response we received hundreds of supporting interventions.

555     This application is built on our long history of serving communities in western Canada, like Winnipeg and Vancouver where I was the local manager of our stations for over 20 years.

556     We attribute our success in these and other markets across the country to our rejection of cookie‑cutter programming.  Instead, we take a market‑specific approach, where local management drives research and programming to create a service tailored for each individual market.

557     That is why our proposed station for Calgary is, and will be, uniquely suited to this market.  We build it from the ground up.

558     As we drafted this application, we believed it was important to answer three questions.


559     One:  Can the Calgary market support a new radio station?

560     Two:  What are Calgarians missing on the local radio dial?

561     Three:  What kind of CTD initiatives would represent the best benefit to Calgary and the system as a whole.

562     Our response is Energy FM.

563     The word "Energy" not only reflects the Hot Adult Contemporary format, but it also describes Calgary's vibrant and optimistic nature.  One of Canada's fastest growing cities, Calgary has a young and increasingly diverse population.

564     This application was developed to demonstrate CHUM's commitment to both the local Calgary scene and the system as a whole.  The result is a Canadian Talent Development CTD package of $13 million in direct and indirect benefits that will support Canadian artists on a local, regional and national level.

565     As well, it will facilitate the launch of Aboriginal Voices Radio, Canada's first national aboriginal radio network.


566     While I have spoken about our community consultation, Kerry French will now tell you a bit about the qualitative research that helped guide our proposal for Energy FM.

567     Kerry...?

568     MS FRENCH:  The first step in preparing our application was to analyze Calgary's economy to determine whether the market could sustain a new entrant onto the radio landscape without unduly impacting the existing players.

569     As all of the applicants will likely tell you, Calgary is robust by all economic indicators, including the health of local radio.

570     Both census and market research show Calgary to be a cosmopolitan city of over one million which is growing rapidly and drawing people from all over Canada and around the world.

571     Driven by the success of the energy sector, Calgary's diverse economy is firing on all cylinders.  Growth in real GDP is expected to rank second in the country for 2006, while retail sales growth continues to be strong.

572     The Calgary radio market currently consists of 15 commercial stations and is extremely profitable.  In fact, over the last five years profit before interest and taxes, PBIT, has outpaced the national average by 73 percent.


573     Between 2000 and 2004, Calgary radio revenue increased over 31 percent.  The December 2005 trend reports an 8.2 percent increase in the first four months of this broadcast year.  Advertising investment in Calgary radio shows every indication of continued positive growth.

574     Given the strength of both the Calgary economy and healthy radio revenue growth in the market, CHUM believes, and the economic report we commissioned from Communications Management Inc. confirms, licensing a new FM service designed to reflect the youth, energy, vibrancy and rich culture of Calgary will have limited financial impact on the existing radio stations in the market.

575     Our next step in preparing our application was commissioning a research study to determine what, if any, format opportunities exist in Calgary.  We wanted to know what types of music listeners are interested in hearing and whether they currently have access to that music on the radio dial.

576     We tested a number of formats, and what the Calgary radio audience told us very clearly is that despite the number of stations serving the market, they do not have access to the same variety of formats as are present in other large markets.


577     Moreover, the research study prepared by Audience Research International showed that the most under served music choice was Hot AC and that no station was operating in that format.  41 percent of the 18 to 49 year old survey respondents said that they would list to Hot AC.  60 percent of those said it would be their favourite radio station.

578     Our research clearly demonstrates that there is a hole in the radio market in Calgary and that hole is Hot AC.  Energy FM was designed to fill this void and give Calgarians a radio station that reflects their needs, their choices and their city.

579     Rob...?

580     MR. FARINA:  Thanks, Kerry.

581     The hole in the Calgary market that Kerry just outlined is not only a loss for Calgary music fans but for the host of Canadian artists who receive little or no airplay in the market, as many of Canada's top emerging artists fall into the Hot AC format.


582     In data collected from Mediabase for the week of January 19, 2006, we found no significant airplay of current singles from Canadian emerging artists such as The Arcade Fire, Daniel Powter, Tomi Swick, Andy Stochansky, Matthew Barber, Low Millions, Carl Henry, and many, many others.  During this same period these artists were enjoying widespread airplay across Canada.

583     At present, the majority of Calgary's radio landscape is inhabited by Gold‑based music stations.  The Hot AC format is a vibrant music format that targets adult radio listeners who enjoy cutting edge new music.  This format provides a high energy music mix while being relevant to an adult sensibility.

584     One of the keys to this format's success is the musical variety it offers, artists as diverse as Esthero, James Blunt, Coldplay, Feist and Mary J. Blige all fit on a Hot AC format.

585     Research from the Bureau of Broadcast Measurement shows that Hot AC listeners like to attend concerts, live theatre and cultural events.  They like to dine out and they participate in the nightlife their city has to offer.  Energy FM will be the Calgary radio station that speaks directly to that lifestyle.

586     Energy FM will provide listeners with a minimum of 7 hours of spoken word programming weekly, consisting of a mix of news, weather and sports, surveillance information and a cultural calendar feature which will promote the many cultural and community events occurring in and around Calgary.


587     In addition, Energy FM will air a weekly one‑hour show entitled the "CUE Review", standing for "Cultural Urban Essence".  In partnership with the successful Calgary on‑line magazine of the same name, this program will feature local cultural news, a weekly review of Calgary cuisine, club news, music reviews, and coverage of local events, as well as in‑depth interviews with representatives from various cultural groups and musical artists.

588     While we clearly believe there is a hole in the market that is denying Calgarians a great format and Canadian artists a place to be heard, we are also excited about how the proposed benefits in our application, developed in consultation with the independent recording sector, will impact Canadian emerging artists here and across Canada.

589     The CHUM emerging Indie artist initiative is a first in Canadian radio, both in terms of its size and its scope.  The initiative will pool CHUM's resources from across the country and focus them on emerging independent artists to provide airplay, marketing and prominent retail rack space in 10 key markets across the country.


590     Each month CHUM's programmers will choose a song from an emerging independent Canadian artist to be featured on our radio stations in Victoria, Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg, London, Toronto, Kitchener, Windsor, Ottawa and Halifax.  Each station will air the song a minimum of 15 times per week for a minimum period of four weeks.  Each time the song plays the artist will be identified as "the hot pick of the month".

591     This concentrated effort by 10 radio stations will ensure that that song makes it onto the Top 40 Hot AC Chart in Canada within one week of play.  This momentum in turn will give independent labels a great story to tell and will provide sufficient leverage to garner airplay on other Hot AC stations across Canada.

592     At this point, we would like to play a short video which shows how Energy FM will bring much needed diversity to Calgary and how this initiative will benefit emerging independent artists across Canada.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo


593     MR. FARINA:  It is important to note that CHUM's support does not stop with airplay.  CHUM has partnered with HMV, who will be giving prominent rack space to Indie artists.  HMV stores across Canada will feature a rack branded as the local CHUM station's Hot Indie Rack and will include that month's featured artists, as well as approximately 20 more independent releases from the past year.

594     To promote record sales of the emerging Indie artist of the month, CHUM will create and air 30‑second commercials promoting the artist.  All CHUM radio stations taking part in this initiative will air these commercials free of charge on a minimum of 10 occasions per station each week.

595     That airtime support of this component is currently worth almost $4 million over the course of the license term.

596     The final component of the CHUM emerging Indie artist initiative is a yearly compilation CD of emerging independent Canadian artists.  As part of our agreement with HMV, the CD will be given away free of charge with any purchase of a full‑length Indie CD featured on the CHUM Hot Indie Rack.

597     This CD will allow music fans to discover new Canadian artists while driving sales of independent music.  The CD will also be promoted on the air.


598     The Energy FM audience and listeners to other Hot AC stations want to hear new music, so emerging talent is integral to the success of this format.  We believe that the emerging Indie artist initiative, along with the other music initiatives outlined in our application, will be of great benefit for Calgary and for the Canadian music industry as a whole.

599     Now I will turn it over to Duff to talk about some of our other CTD commitments.

600     MR. ROMAN:  In addition to the substantial music‑related CTD initiatives Rob has discussed, CHUM will make a significant contribution to aboriginal broadcasting through our commitment to over $4.5 million to support Aboriginal Voices Radio.

601     The Commission is aware of CHUM's long‑standing commitment to cultural diversity.  We believe that this support for AVR expresses that commitment in a most tangible way, and will provide diversity not only here in Calgary, but Edmonton, Vancouver and other cities where AVR currently is licensed.


602     In a number of recent licensing decisions, the Commission has stated that support for AVR represents a significant and meaningful contribution to the fulfilment of the objectives of subsection 3(1)(o) of the Broadcasting Act and therefore is beneficial to the broadcasting system as a whole.

603     Most notably, in Decision CRTC 2001‑172, the Commission said that in its view:

".. the development of native broadcasting services across Canada is an endeavour particularly deserving of financial and other assistance, and it encourages all commercial broadcasters to provide such support."

604     In that statement, the Commission called on private broadcasters to step up to the plate and help make AVR a reality.  This initiative answers that call.

605     Given AVR's immediate financial need, CHUM has agreed to accelerate our benefits by providing a first instalment of $645,000 to AVR 90 days from the date of the CRTC's decision to license Energy FM.

606     We believe AVR has now assembled the right team and they have a blueprint for success.  So now it's time to make the dream of a national aboriginal urban radio network a reality.


607     MR. SKI:  Mr. Vice‑Chair, Members of the Commission, we trust in the time that has been allocated to us this morning we have been able to give you a sense of the depth and breath of our commitment to Calgary.  We have proposed a strong local radio station that will fill a programming void and reflect Calgary's energy, diversity and vibrancy, while presenting a series of significant benefits to the system at both the local and national level.

608     We look forward to building on our experience in Edmonton by creating a centre of promotional excellence for local artists and community groups, breathing increased excitement into Calgary's downtown core.

609     We set out early in this process to answer some key questions.  We believe we have demonstrated that:

610     One, the Calgary market is economically robust enough for a new radio station.

611     Two, Calgary is the only major market in Canada without a Hot AC station, denying many Canadian artists much needed airplay.

612     Three, that we have honed our CTD initiatives to advance the development, support and promotion of Canadian independent artists here and across the country, while adding diversity to the system by enabling the launch of AVR.


613     We hope to leave you today having demonstrated that we have answered your call and that Energy FM is the best proposal for you.

614     We thank you for your time and we look forward to answering your questions.

615     Thank you very much.

616     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Ski.

617     We will break at this point and will resume the hearing at 1 o'clock.

618     Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1155 / Suspension à 1155

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1300 / Reprise à 1300

619     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  A l'ordre, si'l vous plaît.

620     We will now continue with the CHUM application.  I am asking Mr. Ron Williams to ask the questions.

621     Ron...?

622     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good afternoon, CHUM panellists.

623     Mr. Ski, I guess just for ease of questioning I will direct all my questions to you and you can answer them or have they have answered as you wish.

624     MR. SKI:  Thank you.


625     I have a couple of questions from your remarks and half a dozen or so from your supplementary brief, so it will seem like we are moving around in many different directions for the first little while and then I will move into some themed area of questions.  I have a series of questions on four or five themes as well.

626     So I will begin with a question from your opening remarks.

627     On page 4 you talk about the profitability of:

"The Calgary radio market currently consists of 15 commercial stations and is extremely profitable."

628     These are your words:

"In fact, over the last five years, profit before interest and taxes (PBIT) has outpaced the national average by 73%."


629     With your own experience and with your consultants you have researched the Calgary marketplace, and given the financial exuberance currently being experienced in Calgary, how many new stations could this marketplace support, in your opinion?

630     MR. SKI:  Commissioner Williams, we think that the Calgary market could probably handle one in addition to ours, so that would, I guess, be two in total.

631     I think that is more ‑‑ I know there may be more frequencies available, but we believe that in terms of new entrants into the marketplace that there should be some kind of a staggered development of FM stations, just to give everybody a chance to, I guess, solidify their programming, solidify their position in the market.  So we would say two FMs.

632     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Thank you.

633     I am just quoting you again from page 5 now:

"Our research clearly demonstrates that there is a hole in the radio market in Calgary and that hole is Hot AC."

634     What other format holes exist in Calgary?


635     MR. SKI:  Commissioner Williams, I might just refer to our research for that and just maybe give you some idea of how we approach a new market or an application of this nature.

636     Given our experience in radio with CHUM across the country, what we normally do first is we come into the market and we listen to the market itself and listen to find out whether or not there are any formats that seem like they are supposedly no‑brainers, or formats that are missing that are in most markets.

637     That's what we found here.  We found that unlike most major markets across the country there was no Hot AC radio station in the market, so our first thought was that there was a Hot AC opportunity, and that was just anecdotally we figured that was the case, given our experience.

638     Sometimes you can be surprised and when you get into the research part of it that doesn't necessarily confirm your initial thoughts.  In this case, however, it certainly did.

639     We found that there was a tremendous opportunity for Hot AC, more so than some of the other formats that we thought might be available.  I will maybe ask Kerry to get into some of the details of the research that talks about a couple of those formats.

640     MS FRENCH:  Thanks, Paul.


641     When we tested the other formats there were kind of two ways that we look at this.

642     First of all, what is the potential for listeners to consider a particular format type of radio station their favourite radio station.

643     The second part of it looks at whether even though they love that particular type of music are they satisfied with what they are getting on the dial?  Do they identify any given radio station in the market as serving them that music?

644     When we looked at Hot AC we found that 25 percent of the market would consider this kind of music to be their favourite radio station.  That is a pretty big hole.

645     The other part of that is that they didn't identify any particular radio station in the market as giving them the music that would fit on a Hot AC radio station.

646     With the other formats, however, there was some interest in both Country and Modern Rock, but in both of those cases ‑‑ in the case of Country, 92 percent of the respondents said they identified a radio station in the market that played that kind of music.


647     With Modern Rock, 87 percent of them identified a particular radio station as giving them that particular music.

648     In the case of the Hot AC it was less than 50 percent, which is a really low number in this kind of research study.  So that gave us certain confidence that the format that would be most successful would be Hot AC.

649     MR. SKI:  I might mention, too, Commissioner Williams, that what we look for in the research that we do ‑‑ and we have done research since the early '80s and do a considerable amount of it within the CHUM group ‑‑ what we are looking for is not whether or not a person would just listen to the radio station, either somewhat or often.

650     What we are looking for is passion, meaning would this station be their favourite radio station.  Because most radio station's audience is based on a core audience, what we call preferentials or P1s.  So it is the 80:20 rule, 80 percent of that audience ‑‑ that particular audience, sorry, the P1s make up about 80 percent of the tuning.


651     So that is why it is so important to any radio station to have passion, and we find you get the passion by asking someone, not if they would listen to it, necessary just that, but could this radio station or would this radio station be their favourite radio station.  We are asking them to make a commitment.

652     MR. FARINA:  If I could just add to that, which isn't further to the research but the anecdotal data that we got when we talked to the music industry, and as exemplified by the positive letters of support we have in regards to this application from major labels, Indie labels, independent promoters, artists managers and artists, there was a clear consensus that this was a big hole in the Calgary market by the big fact that these formats are incredibly successful in Canada and operate in every major market in this country.

653     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  So if the Hot AC was already being served in the Calgary marketplace, what would be the second choice for CHUM, from a format point of view?

654     MR. SKI:  Well, we think the opportunity is so large that would probably be our second choice, too.  But I might ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

655     MR. SKI:  But I might ask Kerry maybe to comment on that.


656     It is hard for us at this point to say.  I mean, we could give it some thought to figure out what the second opportunity might be, but ‑‑

657     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  If it would be your second choice as well, as you earlier answered, I can live with that..

658     MR. SKI:  I think it might be.  It's just because the opportunity here for Hot AC is so profound I think it might be our first and second choice.  That does happen in certain markets, where certain markets can handle two formats that are somewhat similar.  Here again, unlike most markets, major markets across the country, there isn't even one.

659     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I want to talk a little bit about your support for aboriginal broadcasting.

660     In your supplementary brief, beginning at page 20 you talk about the significance and importance of the aboriginal communities in Calgary and Alberta generally.  You state that:

"It may be understood in academic and political circles, but for most Calgarians the Calgary Stampede and other cultural events represent the extent of their exposure."


661     Then you quote some census data that:

"The Province of Alberta has the largest concentration of aboriginal peoples in the prairies and the Calgary CMA is home to over 22,000 aboriginal Canadians, representing the third largest identifiable group in the city."

662     This is all information that you provided, building your case to put together the contribution of $4.5 million to Aboriginal Voices Radio over the 7 year licence term.

663     How did you establish the $4.5 million figure?

664     Have you played a part in establishing, I guess, the budget or the implementation of these monies or is this just a sum that's given to AVR for them to manage as they see fit?

665     MR. SKI:  Commissioner Williams, I will ask Duff Roman to give you a little bit more insight into the $4.5 million commitment to AVR.


666     But we found out a while ago that their need was a certain funding for expansion, and certainly into the west, to Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver.  So the funds that we are talking about here are really for that expansion, transmitter sites and things of that nature.

667     Duff can give you a little bit more detail of the various elements, which I believe is what you are asking about and where those funds will go.

668     MR. ROMAN:  As you can appreciate, Commissioner Williams, we have had an extended conversation with our colleagues at AVR in an attempt to determine, as Paul says, what the funding requirements would be for a specific period of time, i.e. the 7‑year traditional licence term, and in a joint consultation we determined that about $4.5 million would work quite well in the beginning stages of rolling out the services in those areas where they have already received licences.

669     As you know, they have been licensed to Calgary, to Edmonton, to Vancouver, Kitchener, to Ottawa and to Montreal.


670     Now, in the case of this hearing for Calgary, we are committing to spend the first year of the commitment, $645,000, to make that available to them within 90 days of successful approval of this application.  That will go for the launch of Calgary and will make a decent start on the launch of Edmonton.  Then that will continue to be applied in the successive years of the 7‑year commitment.

671     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Is that $645,000 sufficient to launch Calgary?  Is that the total amount required?

672     MR. ROMAN:  It is more than sufficient for Calgary.  I can give you a general idea of the costs of launching in Calgary.

673     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.

674     MR. ROMAN:  We think the technical plant, the transmitter, 20 kilowatt transmitter, the combiners, the modules, the standby systems, the installation costs, are in the range of about $350,000.

675     At this point we are not talking about a live studio commitment to Calgary.  We are talking about a way of picking up the AVR network from Toronto.  So those costs we have also worked out, but in the first round they will come as a second phase as we roll out the Calgary, hopefully Edmonton and perhaps some of the other markets.

676     But in addition to that, there would be some installation costs, there would be some maintenance costs, some tower space costs, for another $115,000, $110,000.  That would get the jump‑start of the AVR initiative in that first 90 days.


677     But we are committed to making this project work.  We think that our intentions of getting the money out quickly like this would allow us to see how the rest of the business plan shapes up.

678     We think that there are areas where others will come to the party.  We do not discourage private sponsorships, we don't discourage going to public sources with regard to helping AVR.

679     But we have seen their business plan.  It is very stabilized.  They have had a new Board of Directors, they have some governance issues nailed down, and we are very confident that AVR has been put on a very stable footing and we are prepared to work with them in the long term.

680     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  There have been a lot of questions in industry, and even within our organization, about reasons by AVR hasn't been able to launch in all their licensed marketplaces yet.

681     What, in your company's opinion, is the major reason AVR is not on the air in all of its licensed marketplaces within a year or so of being licensed, or two years?


682     MR. ROMAN:  I think there may be others in these policy areas at our table that might wish to comment, but really I think that there has been somewhat of a piecemeal approach to the needs of AVR.

683     Our discussions with AVR were really about the idea of getting to a long‑term relationship, basically laying out what their needs would be.

684     We have talked with their Chair, Jamie Hill, with Lewis Cardinal on the board, with their consultants, and what we think we have here is a realistic plan to get them moving quickly in the first instance with Calgary, but then as the other annual instalments of $645,000 come on board, we are very confident that we can get the networked stations out.

685     Local service costs a little bit more money and will be part of a second phase.  But I think that, probably in all good intentions, various broadcasters have worked with AVR and I think the approach hasn't been as holistic and I don't think in a sense that there has been this desire to form a true partnership where we are open with each other.

686     We have many consultations with AVR in an attempt to really make this work this time, because we realized the history.


687     So from that aspect, I think ‑‑ and we may get into it later ‑‑ just as we have taken a very large, global holistic approach to independent artist initiatives, we felt with AVR we would do a similar approach.  We think that that will make a big difference.

688     We bring a lot of expertise, a lot of experience in broadcasting, and we put that on the table as well as the dollars.

689     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Is this contribution in the nature of cash or is it cash and consulting services or cash and consulting services and equipment?

690     What is the nature of it and what types of controls or strings do you have to the cash to make sure it is allocated in such a way as this network could get established in the manner that you envision?

691     MR. ROMAN:  Well, certainly for the initial commitment of $645,000 we do have a letter that we will file with the Commission in terms of our understanding of the arrangement.  That is the only agreement we have at this time.

692     But from a standpoint of where this commitment will be spent and how it will be spent, we have asked AVR to give us their needs.  They have provided us essentially with some of the budget figures that I presented to you.  We think that they basically have organized themselves very well, and from that standpoint I think we are in pretty good shape.


693     MR. SKI:  Commissioner Williams, if I could, the $4.5 million is a cash contribution.

694     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Cash contribution. okay.

695     The AVR management team, I guess what you are telling us, is you are convinced that they are experienced and capable and they should be able to launch if they give financial assistance such as what you are proposing?

696     MR. ROMAN:  Yes, we think so.  They have a very experienced radio executive in Roy Hennessy who is managing their day‑to‑day operations.  We certainly know that at the board level with Jamie Hill and some of the consultants that they have on board that they are very serious about it.

697     And we are very impressed, by the way, with how they have managed to operate with some very restrictive circumstances in the Toronto area.  We have been to their studios.  There seems to be a real "can‑do" attitude and they certainly have the attitude that they will not be defeated in this area.  We are very impressed with that.


698     We think the people who have been exposed to them are also rallying around the idea that we should have an AVR national broadcasting system in this country and we feel confident that they have that in place.

699     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Moving a little ways along from there, in your supplementary brief you talked about CHUM:

"...being prepared to commit that you would specifically hire an aboriginal Canadian for an on‑air position for your new radio station in Calgary and that CHUM would work with AVR to mentor young aboriginal Canadians who are interested in such positions in broadcasting."

700     What level of discussions have you had with AVR and do you anticipate any difficulty in finding people of aboriginal ancestry that are trained and able to work in a large CHUM radio station in Calgary?

701     MR. ROMAN:  No, I don't think so.  I think that given the opportunity to be trained and to work within a professional system like CHUM I think is something to be aspired to.  I really don't feel that there will be any difficulty with that.  We made that commitment.


702     A lot of our discussion has been about the intangibles.  We are not putting a list of indirect benefits here, as Paul has mentioned.  The $4.515 million is cash, but a lot of our discussions about whether or not there may be a way of sharing facilities for instance in those markets where we have up‑and‑running radio stations, would we lend assistance with technical support for instance, would we be prepared to take on interns and part‑timers and other staff who could be developed into progressively better and better situations.

703     That seems to be as attractive to them in a sense as perhaps the cash allotments.

704     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.

705     In your supplementary brief again you refer to:

"Senior CHUM managers are founding and active members of the Strategic Alliance of Broadcasters for Aboriginal Reflection known as SABAR."

706     Could you please describe some of the work that this group does and has been done in this area in the last couple of years?


707     MR. SKI:  I might start, Commissioner Williams, and have Duff add a little bit.

708     As you may know, we are a founding member of the Strategic Alliance for Broadcasters and Aboriginal Reflection and Sarah Crawford is one of the people who sits on that particular board.

709     A number of the things that we look at is certainly on our reflection, which is important, and I know that it is somewhat more difficult with stations that are mature stations in the market where it is a little bit more challenging, but certainly with our new stations that we have, like The Bounce for instance in Edmonton, they have become quite diverse.

710     One of the full‑time employees is aboriginal and I'm proud to say that nine of our 25 staff members are visible minorities.  That is about 36 percent.  The on‑air staff, four of the nine are visible minorities and 75 percent of the staff are female.  So we are quite proud of that record, especially of new stations that are in a start‑up phase.

711     MR. ROMAN:  I just only add that we are not new to the development of relationships with aboriginal broadcasters.  Just for the record, in the late '60s CHUM Radio was the first private organization to partner with aboriginal radio in Tuktoyaktuk.


712     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I actually lived in the Mackenzie Delta within 60 miles of that radio station when you helped them, yes..

713     MR. ROMAN:  I think you remember Radiotuk it was called.

714     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Or TBS.

715     MR. ROMAN:  Yes, sir.

716     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Tuk Broadcasting Society or something.

717     Let's talk about Calgary now.

718     The Calgary Cafe series.  You talk about:

"... showcasing talent staged in prominent downtown locations free of charge."

719     You would:

"... be staging five lunchtime concerts in several downtown locations."

720     What locations in Calgary have you identified as being a good venue for this Calgary Cafe series?


721     MR. FARINA:  What we thought, Commissioner, would be that as our audience are young adult and predominantly females that it would be important that we be able to cover the business district and not the same location all the time but a roaming location.

722     If I could correct the record, it is actually 12 events which happen each Friday over the course of the months of June, July ‑‑

723     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So that is 12 rather than the five stated in your supplementary brief?

724     MR. FARINA:  It is 12, yes.

725     The events feature Alberta artists, that could be a combination of signed and unsigned.  To support the events, the artists are going to be invited into the radio station morning shows to be able to perform which, as everybody is aware, is peak tuning for radio, so a great way to get exposure.

726     The events also allow us to chat up the entire week about the performance to engage listeners to come down and see, which in turn provides great promotion for the artist.


727     MR. SKI:  Commissioner Williams, one of the people that we talked to when we were putting together the application was Richard White, who is head of the Downtown Merchant's Association for Calgary ‑‑ like we have done I guess in other markets like Edmonton in particular, trying to revitalize Jasper Avenue ‑‑ he certainly felt that the Cafe series and other initiatives that we have that would bring local live talent to downtown Calgary would be certainly an added bonus to the city.

728     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.

729     You indicate your Hot AC would target a broad 25 to 44 year old listener.

730     These next few questions ‑‑ maybe I will just give you a bit of preamble and then I will go back to that ‑‑ is to help us gain a better understanding of your proposed demographic and how it differs from the demographic proposed by Harvard, and also to examine why you believe your proposed format would provide the best programming diversity to the 25 to 44 age group.

731     The first question is:  You indicate your Hot AC would target a broad 25 to 44 year old listener.  However, format qualifiers to just Hot generally don't denote from a programming perspective a more focused approach to attracting audience.

732     As a Hot AC, would your programming and music mix target the younger 25 to 35 year old segment of the broadly defined market or would it be skewed to attract the older 35 to 44 segment?


733     I guess what I'm trying to get is, I'm trying to get a feel for what your core demographic target it.

734     MR. SKI:  Certainly, Commissioner Williams, I will start then have Kerry and Rob jump in.

735     I think, first of all, the term "Hot" is a term that we use for a lot of things I guess, and one of them is radio formats, Hot AC.  But today most radio formats, given the fragmentation that we have in most markets, need to be focused, some of them more laser focused than others.  So while Hot AC may seem to be more focused in one particular area, there is a sense of focus with all formats now.  They have to be.

736     Not only with, as I say, the local fragmentation in the marketplace, but also the other audio technologies that we are having to deal with, certainly the ones we currently have to deal with and certain impending technologies.

737     So we take great pride in making sure that when we research a format that we get good and valuable information.  There are sort of three parts of it.

738     One is doing the research itself, which is the questionnaire development.  We see that as 25 percent of the process.


739     The next 25 percent of it is the interpretation.

740     Those two elements are obviously very important, but 50 percent of that entire process is really the execution of the format.  If we miss on any of those we will probably miss somewhat or the other, but the big miss can be on the execution part.

741     Let me let Kerry talk a little bit about the demo and the broadness or the focus of that that came out of the research.

742     MS FRENCH:  Thanks, Paul.

743     We don't necessarily define what the target of the radio station is.  The listeners actually define it.  When we did the research study, it came back that the core would be 25 to 34.  There would also be a reasonably large audience in 18 to 24 and then again on the other side in 35 to 44.  Those are the people who told us they would listen to this radio station and it would be their favourite radio station.

744     So we are not really deciding that we are going to pick that part of it.  We are hopefully going to get some partisans in each of those demos.

745     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So it is not a specific focus on the younger listeners or the older listeners, it is ‑‑


746     MS FRENCH:  No, it is actually the audience that defines it for us.

747     When you look at BBM numbers, in Hot AC formats across the country 49 percent of listeners are in that 25 to 44 area and 63 percent are in the 18 to 49 area.  When you look at other types of formats, for example the Modern Rock format, it is 56 percent 12 to 34, so it is a much younger format.

748     The stat that differentiates them most specifically is that 60 percent of the tuning to Hot AC stations is by females, whereas 68 percent of the tuning to modern rock stations comes from males.

749     So the actual age demos overlap a bit, but certainly they are very different in their taste.

750     MR. SKI:  Commissioner Williams, too we have to remember that a format normally is a group of tastes inside a demographic.  It is a group of tastes inside that demo, whether it is 25‑34 or whether it is 25‑44.  Certainly most of us on this panel think that is fairly young, but maybe Rob, who programs a Hot AC radio station, one of the top ones in the country, might comment on the target audience.


751     MR. FARINA:  Yes.  The narrow target of the radio station ‑‑ and although there are variances in market‑to‑market ‑‑ is generally 25 to 34 for this format and it is predominantly female skewed.

752     You mentioned Harvard.  In their application they make several comparisons to CFNY in Toronto.  The thing to keep in mind with the Toronto market is, unlike the Calgary market there is an album‑oriented radio station that playlists a segment of the Alternative or New Rock music.

753     Also, further to what Kerry said, I think another differentiation with the demo comes down to sustainability.  We run an Alternative Rock station in Windsor and based on what we are seeing in the new launches in the markets of Ottawa and Edmonton, it is a very tough demo to sell to advertisers as opposed to the 25 to 34 target which Toronto's example where we run a stand‑alone FM with CHUM FM and we are very successful with that.

754     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Could you tell us, who is this demographic listening to now.  Are they tuned into CIBK offering CHR or CHFM offering an AC, or Classic Rock or AOR or Classic Hits?  Who is this demographic being entertained by now?

755     MR. SKI:  Commissioner Williams, I will let Kerry give you some of the exact details, but maybe just a bit of perspective.


756     If there is a lack of a particular format, especially one that has this kind of opportunity in a market, a couple of things happen.

757     One is that radio stations in the market can be broader in their scope.  So a station that might be a CHR station for instance could be a little bit broader, because there is really nobody, if I could say, on top of them in that particular format.  So they can be broad in their scope to begin with.

758     Are they super serving that Hot AC core audience?  No, they are not.  Normally a great deal of the listening that they have to that station won't be extremely significant.  People will tune into the station, but they won't spend a lot of time listening to that radio station because of the fact that they are not getting enough of their favourite music enough of the time, but it does allow those stations that in a market where there is the lack of this kind of a format to get additional tuning to their station because there isn't an alternative.

759     Kerry...?

760     MS FRENCH:  Thanks, Paul.


761     That core demo of female 25 to 34 in Calgary, they are splitting their tuning basically between five radio stations.  The number one radio station, with 21.7 per cent market share ‑‑ that is in the latest BBM S4 survey, which is the equivalent of a regular fall survey ‑‑ is JACK FM, which is a Classic Hits radio station, a very popular station, but generally Classic Hits are slightly more male‑based and they are Rock‑based and Gold‑based radio stations.  So it is unusual to have this core demo listen to Classic Hits as their number one station.

762     They also tune to the Vibe, which is the Top 40 urban station, CHFM, which is a softer, more mainstream version of AC.  The Country station, Country 105, and another Rock station .

763     So Energy FM would actually take tuning away from all five of those radio stations because we would be giving them the kind of music that they really do want to hear.

764     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  To what degree do you think you would draw away from each of the existing stations?


765     MS FRENCH:  Well, Commissioner Williams, because the tuning is so split I don't think we would impact any one particular radio station to any great extent.  Our estimate suggests that between 5 and 7 percent of their tuning would move over to our radio station because we would be supplying the kind of music that these people want to hear.  So it wouldn't be a terrific impact on any one radio station.

766     MR. SKI:  I think too, if I could add, we should remember that the people who are tuning to these stations right now, although they may be tuning to the stations, they are not spending a great deal of time with them, just because they are not fulfilled from that particular experience.

767     It is really by default, I would say, that they are listening to these stations or they are listening to their own CD collections or their iPod or whatever, because they are just not being fulfilled by any one of those particular stations.  We see this a lot where there is a tremendous spread across a spectrum of radio stations.  That normally happens when there is not one station that is fulfilling that particular need.

768     MS FRENCH:  If I can just add another point?


769     In our research the people who identify themselves as Hot AC partisans or people who would have a Hot AC radio station as their favourite radio station, in Calgary they are listening to between 2.5 and 3.5 hours of radio less than partisans to other formats.  We believe the reason for that is that they don't have the choice of radio station that they want to hear on the dial.

770     MR. SKI:  I think, too, on page 4 of our research project is where those particular numbers are that Kerry had referenced.  And also the fact that since there is no one station that dominates their listening, they are not listening for as many hours.  That was the point I was trying to make.  But that is quantified on page 4 of the ARI study.

771     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

772     Harvard is also applying to operate an Alternative Rock music format which, like your Hot AC, would provide a service to the 25 to 34 year old young adult listener.

773     Why, in your opinion, would your Hot AC format proposal be a better choice than Harvard's alternative rock proposal to provide programming diversity to the Calgary marketplace, and specifically to the 25 to 34 year old young adult listener?

774     MR. ROMAN:  There are a couple of reasons.


775     First off, when you look at the Calgary market there are three radio stations in the Rock genre, a Classic Hits station, which is predominantly Classic Rock based, a Classic Rock station, and an album orientated Rock station, whereas there is no radio station targeting a young adult female audience directly in the market.

776     Further to that, I refer to later and I see in several instances in the Harvard applications comparisons to CFNY with their demographics.

777     If I could be so bold, I think it is a little bit different to compare CFNY with any other Modern Rock in Canada.  CFNY has a huge history of being an Alternative music station operating since the '70s, and because of that they are able to build a heritage with listeners, as opposed to our experience in Windsor and what we are seeing in markets like Ottawa and Edmonton with the Alt Rock stations that have launched there.

778     It is a very male‑based and a very 12 to 24 format.  So we actually don't see any sharing of audiences between the two.

779     Further to that, I took a look at a comparison of titles between Hot ACs and CFNY, that being the real comparative station in the Harvard application, and out of 176 titles only eight of the same songs appeared on both of those playlists, that being the Hot AC and Alternative Rock.


780     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I didn't quite get why you feel that your offering would be better than theirs.

781     MR. FARINA:  I feel our offering will be better than theirs because there is a complete void in the market now for this format.

782     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Because they are not being served.

783     MR. FARINA:  The format has had a wider appeal in terms of the amount of people who are drawn to a Hot AC format versus the amount of people who are traditionally drawn to an Alternative Rock format.

784     MR. SKI:  Rob may want to comment on the diversity of artist representation, that again you are not getting in this market the number of artists that are Hot AC artists that really aren't being played in this market in Calgary at the present time.

785     Rob...?

786     MR. FARINA:  Thanks, Paul.


787     Hot AC is also referred to as Adult CHR.  The reason it is is because it is an audience that has grown up listening to teen radio stations, but with people living longer, leading more active lives, people still want to be plugged into what is new and what is happening, but obviously within an adult sensibility.

788     One of the things about the Hot AC format that allows it to be as popular is because the music is so diverse.  It borrows from Adult Rock, Pop, urban, Soft Hits, and not only does the radio station contain great diversity in the music, but I think because of that it is why, in the audience make‑up that our radio stations attract, it really attracts a real diverse audience make‑up, obviously very centred around a predominantly female and predominantly 24 to 34 skew.

789     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.

790     Can we talk a little bit about your local programming initiatives of spoken word and news.

791     In response to some of our deficiency questions, you indicated that you would provide around 10 hours per week of local reflections spoken word programming, which would include 3.5 hours devoted to news, one hour to related surveillance programming, and earlier I noted that a number of incumbent stations already attract a high level of tuning in this age demographic.


792     Perhaps you could elaborate on what would differentiate your treatment of local news from that being offered by the incumbent stations that are currently attracting your target listeners?

793     MR. SKI:  Commissioner Williams, I will have Rob give you a bit of a perspective of the audience itself, I think, which would help to give you some comfort in the kind of news, the kind of information, the kind of spoken word that we are going to be offering.

794     I should mention, too, that when CHUM builds a radio station we build it from the ground up.  So we go to those audiences to determine what type of information they require, what are their ‑‑ I guess what are their information needs.  Because the last thing that we want to do is duplicate what someone else is doing.  There are certain news stories you can only do so many ways.

795     But, by and large, the other information parts of our application, a lot of which refer to the artists, et cetera, in certain types of the programs would be different than what other stations are currently doing, but to the point that we will get feedback from the community and try to reflect what is happening in Calgary, mirror the community and mirror what the listeners to a Hot AC format want to hear.


796     Rob?...

797     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  As part of that answer maybe if you can elaborate a little bit on what you have just said and how your approach would play an important role in attracting listeners to your new station, your approach to the spoken word.

798     MR. FARINA:  Gladly.

799     MR SKI:  Certainly.

800     MR. FARINA:  Commissioner, if you could indulge me for a second, there were a couple of omissions in the deficiencies.

801     We want to clarify that the 8:30 a.m. newscast on weekdays was omitted, which adds an additional 25 minutes of news, and there was a mathematical error in the calculation of weather and traffic which should have read an hour and 40 minutes.

802     So the breakdown ‑‑ and we will obviously supply this ‑‑ there are over four hours of minutes of news, weather and traffic accounts, for an hour and 38 minutes Monday to Sunday; there is a cultural calendar that airs 5 times a day, 7 days a week; and a one hour weekly cultural affairs show, bringing the total spoken word to 7 hours, 15 minutes and 30 seconds.


803     Which does not include, obviously, what we refer to as interstitial talk or DJ banter.  Part of that is in our emerging Indie artist initiative.  With our Calgary station, there is a minute of, let's call it foreground programming for lack of a better term, which gives the DJs an opportunity to kind of tell the story about the artist and familiarize the audience with the artist.

804     In terms of differentiation of our spoken word in the market, because there is no radio station targeting that young adult predominantly female audience, there is really no outlet that is relevant to the demographic in terms of super serving them.  As well, because the format is inherently diverse, covering many musical genres, as I said, the audience is equally as diverse, both culturally and socially.

805     So the types of stories we would cover more in depth in our news and information programming and long form programming bring more diversity to the market.  Listeners to this format would be more interested in information about dating and relationship issues, child rearing, family events, social issues, health issues, wellness, beauty and fashion.


806     I think we are also bringing to the market the only daily feature solely focused on Calgary cultural events and a weekly one‑hour show dedicated specifically to cultural issues in Calgary.

807     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How many programming staff would be employed by the station, including your dedicated news staff and on‑air talent?

808     In asking this question, I'm trying to get a feel for the amount of time you would offer live‑to‑air programming rather than voice‑tracked prerecorded programming.

809     MR: SKI:  Commissioner Williams, the total number of staff is 27.  That is a number that is similar to our Edmonton station, for instance, and similar to a number of our standalone FM stations.  Of that number, 11 of those staff come under the programming heading of program director, announcers, et cetera, and three of the people ‑‑ three additional on top of the 11 ‑‑ are news people.  There is a news director and two news people.

810     So the total programming staff in programming itself and in news is a total of 14.

811     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Would there be any synergies with other media properties you have in Calgary?

812     MR. SKI:  There would be some.


813     I didn't really answer the other part of your question and I apologize for that, but we expect that this station will be live 24/7.  There might be vacations obviously and other sickness, et cetera, that may require some voice tracking, and if there is any voice tracking that voice tracking would be done locally here in Calgary.

814     But one of the things that we think is really important for us with new technologies coming along, is the fact that if radio is going to sustain its position that it has to be live and local and relevant.

815     So that means that we have to also be bringing people along within our industry.  One of the ways to do that is to obviously have live announcers during time periods where you might not normally have them.  That would be the all night show, which is actually where I started and I think a few on this panel may have started on the all night show, and if there hadn't of been an all night show we might have had a difficult time starting in mornings.  Fortunately enough, there was that opportunity for us.


816     So we believe that to help to insulate ourselves in the future from these other technologies that we have to bring people along.  We have to do a little bit more mentoring, a little bit more training than maybe we have done in the past.  That is going to become much more important than maybe it has been with the increased fragmentation.

817     MR. FARINA:  Maybe I could add further to that in terms of the synergies.

818     One of the things that would work well, not only for CHUM but I think for the market as a whole, is now with the potential of a Hot AC radio station in the market, it gives record companies reason to fund artist promotional trips into the market, which would help other stations in the market that may be supporting the artist.

819     Our Edmonton station and the Vibe in Calgary, we probably share about 10 to 15 percent of the titles, so maybe those artists are artists that record labels may be able to rationalize the value of bringing artists into the market for promotional tours.

820     As well as that, there is a real ‑‑ because there is currently no outlet in the market for concerts and events and bringing these listeners in, that is one of the things that we may be able to bring to the table by having this outlet in Calgary.


821     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I had a question prepared earlier here that was to ask if you could elaborate on why your projected programming expenses are so much higher than some of the other applicants and they were producing spoken word programming, but I think your clarification and some of the errors in your spoken word programming may preempt that question.

822     MR. SKI:  Certainly.  If I could add, we have always believed ‑‑ and I think the ratings show this ‑‑ that it is very important for us to invest in programming.  We prefer to go the quality route rather than the quantity route and quality tends to cost a little bit more than just quantity.

823     I mean it's going to be, as I say, not to repeat myself, but the local elements of this radio station, or any others, are really going to be what differentiates us from other impending audio technologies.  We believe that this is more an investment than it is a cost.

824     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  I am going to now move into an area regarding your proposed initiatives.

825     You indicate that you will devote $62,000 a year to support the emerging Indie CD series.

826     Could you provide details on how these artists will be chosen?


827     I see no mention of a specific Calgary talent or Alberta talent search in your plans.  Are the artists to be featured on the CD chosen as part of another CHUM CTD initiative, either corporate or specific to an individual station?

828     How will Calgary artists be represented in this project?

829     MR. FARINA:  Thank you.

830     If I could maybe answer your question, Commissioner, by taking a step back and explaining how the artists are going to be chosen month‑to‑month to be the emerging Indie artist of the month.

831     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes.

832     MR. FARINA:  If we take it to ground level of our local radio stations, each week our program director and music director and some of the announce staff have a weekly meeting where they review the playlist to find out what has become tired on the playlist or what record isn't working out on the playlist or getting a lot of complaints, and through that we realize how many slots we have.


833     Then we look at listener research, which we do weekly, we look at national charts, we listen to all the music, and based on all the facts at hand we make the best choice of which record goes on to the playlist.

834     The emerging Indie artist initiative works sort of the same way, except it is on a national level.  So the committee is chaired by our Calgary program director, who has a committee consisting of representation from each of the 10 radio stations participating.

835     CHUM is working on building a website infrastructure to be a housing depot for Indie artists so we could put all the MP3s on it.  Each of the program directors or music directors are required to go through all the material and, further, we have an option that we open up to our listeners that are the taste‑makers of the audience.

836     In every radio station there is a segment of the audience that are hyper consumers of music and want to be very involved in the selection of music and we invite them throughout the month, we send out e‑mail invites for them to come onto the site, review the titles and vote on them for us.


837     So once we get all that information, the program director in Calgary chair's a call and we do a democratic vote on which record basically gets the highest amount of votes and is the best suited to be the eligible artist of that month.

838     For the Indie CD, we put a lot of thought in this and what we thought was, rather than put all 12 of the previous years' artists on the CD, it may be a good way to build cache for the CD by putting half of the artists we had already supported that we have helped build a name brand for and allow another six new artists that may not have made it into the Indie artist of the month but are still great pieces of music and eligible for exposure, and obviously may have, you know, made it onto the playlists of our radio stations regardless.

839     The CD is chaired and overseen by our Calgary program director to ensure that a predominance of the CD will feature Calgary and Alberta recording artists.

840     The other thing we did with this CD is, we have noticed that a lot of the times when these CD samplers are done, because they are given away free the artist signs away their royalties for use of the CD.


841     We know we are dealing with emerging artists and we know the challenges that emerging artists face in Canada, so we made sure that what we built into the cost was actually not only the publishing royalties but artist and record royalties.

842     Again, I want to reiterate that these CDs are given free of charge at HMVs across Canada with any purchase of a full‑length Canadian independent CD.

843     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How many of these CDs are you making?

844     MR. FARINA:  Fifteen thousand.

845     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Is that a sufficient number to meet that type of objective of giving them away with each purchase?

846     MR. FARINA:  When you look at the record sales in Canada in the time of year that we are planning to do this, which is going to be around the January/February mark, it seems to be a healthy amount.  Obviously, this is something that we may be able to re‑look at.

847     Part of the reason of having so few is to create a real demand for them.  You know, it is almost better to have ‑‑

848     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Not enough.

849     MR. FARINA:  ‑‑ too few than too many.  It diminishes the value of the actual product.


850     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  With respect to publishing royalties and artist record royalties, are you talking about money that is directed to SOCAN and CMRRA or some other rights association?

851     MR. SKI:  Commissioner Williams, I will ask Kevin Goldstein to comment.

852     MR. KEVIN GOLDSTEIN:  Thanks, Paul.

853     Generally when you are producing a CD you need to clear the sync right or the mechanical right.  Generally there is publishing royalties involved as well as royalties to the label or performer.

854     As Rob indicated, there is an allocation in there to pay for that.  Usually when you are dealing with an independent artist they tend to control their own copyright, but we would clear all necessary rights.

855     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes.  You provided us with a detailed cost breakdown of the $62,000.  There was $27,000 for packaging and $15,000 for publishing and artist record royalties, and $5,000 for marketing material, for a total of $62,000.

856     Will contributing Indie artists benefit financially from participating in this project and, if so, how?

857     How will they benefit?

858     MR. FARINA:  On a couple of different levels, Commissioner.


859     First of all is promotion of the Indie Cd series.  They will benefit through promotional airtime on the air promoting the series.

860     As well, the launch of the series involves a live in‑store remote in an HMV.  That is one of the things that we are working on with HMV now.

861     They will also benefit financially.  The use of their work will be paid for.

862     I think, you know, the most important benefit of all is the ability to get their music on to people and turn people on to their music.

863     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Will they be participating in the Calgary Cafe series, for example, or some of them?

864     MR. FARINA:  The Calgary Cafe series is actually meant to be for unsigned artists and developing artists more at a grassroots level.  We imagine that some of the artists from the ‑‑

865     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So they would grow from there.

866     MR. FARINA:  Absolutely.

867     One of things with the Calgary Cafe series is it is really specific to Calgary artists that we want to showcase and promote here.

868     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.


869     Back to your budget breakdown on the $62,000 for this initiative.

870     Regarding packaging, does this $27,000 include manufacturing and mastering?

871     MR. FARINA:  Yes, Commissioner.

872     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Regarding the marketing material allocation of $5,000, will it be paid out to the third party and what type of marketing material are we talking about?

873     I ask, because on page 16 of your supplementary brief you state that:

"The CD will be promoted on‑air as part of the marketing and promotion initiative discussed above."

874     MR. FARINA:  In our agreement with HMV, we have agreed that because each market is going to be customized with the local CHUM station's logo that we would handle the price of making those placards that sit on top of the racks.  So this would be specific to this initiative to pay for the placards across Canada, and also for postering inside the HMV locations.


875     MR. SKI:  Commissioner Williams, these are third party costs.  What you referred to in the supplementary brief, which is part of the advertising campaign or the additional $4 million, obviously is what is on the air and what we calculate the value of the commercials on all of our radio stations.  But the marketing material, no, is a third party cost.

876     MR. FARINA:  Just to clarify that a little further, the $4 million that Paul just alluded to, that is directly to the emerging Indie artist of the month.  We won't be using this airtime to promote the CD as part of the other initiative, because obviously the artist of that month would be shortchanged.

877     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.

878     You state that you will give $105,000 or $15,000 a year to Alberta's own independent music festival.

879     Could you please provide details on how these funds will be directed?

880     What type of agreement do you have with the Festival that will ensure that the funds are used as you direct?  Has the Festival agreed to this in writing?


881     And in the event the Festival is not willing to sign on, are you willing to redirect these funds?

882     MR. SKI:  Commissioner Williams, I will have Duff give you some insight into that.

883     Certainly if these funds aren't used as directed by CHUM and they are not eligible CTD benefits, we would of course come up with another plan.

884     We don't think that will be the case because the Alberta Showcase has been really a great part of certainly this province, just down the road at Sylvan Lake for quite some time, and we are pretty excited about that particular initiative.

885     Duff will give you a bit more information.

886     MR. ROMAN:  Commissioner Williams, are you talking about the Festival or about the Alberta Showcase?

887     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Alberta's Own Indie Music Festival.  This is the one that was at the Benalto Rodeo Fairgrounds in Sylvan Lake.

888     MR. FARINA:  I can answer that, Commissioner.


889     That Festival is now in its third year and has been growing quickly.  One of the problems the organizers have is actually handling, because of the popularity of the Festival, paying for the production of the Festival.  So our funds are going directly to the staging and production of the show.

890     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Why I am asking these questions is in a deficiency you stated that you would forward the funds once you agreed in writing that the funds would be used as directed by CHUM.

891     Has a written agreement been developed?

892     MR. FARINA:  We are in the process of drafting a written agreement with Alberta's Own, and we have every confidence in the world that we will be able to reach that agreement with them.

893     MR. SKI:  For many years, Commissioner Williams, CHUM has done things on a handshake.

894     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes.

895     MR. SKI:  And I know that doesn't always work.

896     Certainly we initially have done that, and we do have agreements in principle.  Certainly we will have more formal documents in due course.


897     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You state that you will give $200,000 a year to the Canadian Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences' ‑‑ CARAS ‑‑ music education program.

898     Could you provide details on how these funds would be directed, the type of agreement that you have with CARAS to ensure, again, that these funds are used as you direct.

899     Has CARAS agreed in writing?

900     It is basically a similar question, just with a different group.

901     MR. SKI:  Duff?

902     MR. ROMAN:  Yes.  As probably everyone is aware, CARAS is the Canadian Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences, the same wonderful folks who give us one of the best shows on television, The Junos.  We are very pleased to be in ‑‑

903     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Which I understand sold out within a couple of days.

904     MR. ROMAN:  Yes, the hottest ticket in Atlantic Canada, without a doubt.

905     Will we see you there, Mr. Commissioner?

906     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You might.

907     MR. ROMAN:  That's good.


908     We will be providing $200,000 annually, for a total of $1,400,000, to CARAS in support of their music education program.  That also goes under the name "BAND AID".  That will go toward music seminars, toward the purchase of musical instruments and to facilitate the in‑person appearance and lectures of some of Canada's brightest musical stars.

909     We are very excited that in the past Susan Aglukark, Keshia Chanté, Jan Arden, Remy Shand have all participated in this program.

910     You also asked about whether or not we had an agreement.  We have a draft agreement, sir, and we expect it to be signed shortly.

911     We also maintain a very strong relationship over the years with CARAS.  I have been a past director.  I believe Rob might in fact be involved with CARAS today.

912     And we have a senior CHUM Limited executive, Sarah Crawford, who is on the board of CARAS.

913     So we will make sure that that $200,000 a year is spent correctly.

914     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  All right.

915     You indicated that you would give $645,000 a year, or a little over $4.5 million over seven years, to Aboriginal Voices Radio.


916     In your deficiency response you state that whether the Commission defines this contribution as a contribution to talent development per se or another type of acceptable initiative, you intend to honour this commitment.

917     Traditionally, although the Commission has accepted AVR funding for start‑up and infrastructure costs as a benefit to the broadcasting system, this type of funding has not qualified as eligible CTD.

918     I note you intend to honour this commitment whether or not it is deemed eligible CTD.  However, if disqualified, would your overall CTD package be reduced by $4.5 million or would CHUM redirect its funding to eligible CTD initiatives on top of maintaining its AVRN commitment as a benefit to the broadcasting system?

919     MR. SKI:  Commissioner Williams, we are hoping that the Commission will see this as beneficial to the broadcasting system as a whole.  Certainly we know the Commission has encouraged this type of development and use of funds.


920     To answer your question, no, we would not increase our CTD by $4.5 million.  The CTD amount would remain what it is, and we would still contribute that amount of $4.5 million.

921     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  The CTD would remain at approximately $4.5 million and you would have this additional $4.5 million AVR initiative.

922     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

923     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Further to your stated commitment to honour your funding to AVR, whether eligible for CTD or not, I would draw your attention to Broadcasting Public Notice CRTC 2005‑118.  Published as part of this notice is an application by AVR for an extension of time limit to commence the operation of a number of its native Type B radio programming undertakings and its transmitters in various locations across Canada.

924     The Commission may or may not decide to grant an extension of time to AVR, especially in light of the numerous time extensions already requested by AVR and approved by the Commission.

925     In the event that an extension time is not granted to AVRN, how would CHUM respond?  Would you redirect the $4.5 million in funding to some other type of initiative; and if so, what type of initiative would you be looking at?


926     MR. SKI:  Well, we are certainly hoping that that is not the case, obviously.  As Duff mentioned earlier, we have had these ongoing discussions with AVR and we are quite optimistic now that they have a fairly good plan.

927     Duff may want to comment further on it.

928     If that should happen, unfortunately, as you say, we would redirect those funds, the $4.5 million, to eligible CTD.

929     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Do you have any possible eligible CTD targets that are on the list that you are willing to share with us now?  Or maybe you haven't considered that.

930     MR. SKI:  We haven't considered that.  As I say, we feel very positive about this.

931     Certainly we could review our application with CTD and in reply possibly provide some information to you with regard to how we would re‑apply those funds.

932     I would imagine we would increase what we are doing now in terms of the other CTD for emerging new artists, because we feel very strongly about that too.

933     Duff may have a further comment.


934     MR. ROMAN:  Just to say that hopefully before that unfortunate event would happen, our continuing contact and dialogue with AVR would allow us to consult with AVR and to consult with the Commission.

935     As Paul has said, we would be very loathe to abandon this initiative.

936     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Like format, this is also your second choice, as well as being your first choice.

937     MR. ROMAN:  That's right.  There is no Plan B.

938     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You have a vibrant station in Edmonton.  Are there any synergies between this proposed station and your Edmonton station; and if so, what would these be?

939     MR. SKI:  Commissioner Williams, Rob referred to some of the advantages of having a station in Edmonton and a station in Calgary, and I will let him talk about that in a little bit more detail.

940     I wanted to re‑emphasize that there are very few synergies for us from a radio station to radio station standpoint just because of the fact that we see our radio stations as small businesses operating quite autonomously in markets across the country.  That has been part of our model, our format model.


941     Our economic model has been to have a great deal of autonomy placed within the local markets.  We feel that is the best way to do local radio, obviously with the local managers ‑‑ of which I was one just a very short time ago.

942     We figure that is the best way to do good radio.  The local managers, the local program directors, the local sales managers, they know best how to run those radio stations.

943     In terms of synergies, and especially where the formats are quite different, these stations pretty well operate on their own.

944     There are synergies, though, that we have despite the fact that these are small businesses because of the size of CHUM, and that relates to things such as sales training, our CHUM client solutions, which we are quite proud of, which is a different way to look at the sales process and has been very important for us in terms of ensuring certain levels of sales and revenue in various markets that we have.

945     So there is that type of situation.

946     There is also mentoring.  There is also payroll, some of the back office things that we do.


947     In terms of the on‑air product, the format, the on‑air product, we feel that is best done locally and live.

948     Where there are benefits, though, is Rob referred to earlier where there are artists that might cross over and there are opportunities for promotion amongst the radio stations.

949     For instance, an artist that recently won our talent contest in Edmonton, Krisha Turner.  What a great opportunity for us if we had a Calgary radio station to also feature Krisha Turner here.  She is one that some of her selections, some of her music, crosses over both formats.

950     Rob.

951     MR. FARINA:  I think another example of that ‑‑ and the formats are very different between the Hot AC and the Urban CHR we have in Edmonton.  But there is probably about 15 percent crossover in not so much titles but artists.

952     Maybe an example is an artist like Alisha Keyes.  It is very problematic to get an artist that big into Alberta.  Historically when record companies bring big artists in, they bring them into Toronto to do promo.  And if Canada is lucky, they get into Vancouver.


953     By having two radio stations that they could wrap a promotion around, this allows more leverage for them to bring the artist into the Calgary or the Alberta market, and it gives us the opportunity to do a live show with the artist.  If we can't get the artist stopping in both markets, we are allowed to do a contest where winners from one radio station can visit the other market and are able to take place in a live music format, which we obviously distribute that across the country with the CHUM radio network.

954     So the synergies again happen mostly on the back end in the areas of training, but there are a little bit of synergies on the programming front where it works right with the right artist.

955     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Are there any synergies with your television property?

956     MR. SKI:  There are some synergies but very few, just because of the fact that we operate differently.

957     To my previous point, we operate independently.  We co‑operate competitively wherever we can.

958     To give you an example, I think the primary synergies that we have in Edmonton, for instance, and some of our other markets, such as Ottawa and London, we have a receptionist, for instance, that is the receptionist for both stations.


959     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  This proposed radio station would be located in the same building as your TV property, then?

960     MR. SKI:  That's our plan, yes.

961     In terms of other synergies, those synergies relate to, as Rob mentioned, really if we have artists that are appearing in town.

962     I think in Edmonton recently we had Julie Black perform at a party that was held for our television station in Edmonton and also for our radio station in Edmonton.

963     The promotion of talent is one of the prime synergies, but in terms of back office we really don't do too much, other than again, as I say, possibly some payroll or things of that nature.

964     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I want to talk a bit about the linkages between your marketing study and your financial projections.

965     It is the last question I have before turning your fate over to my colleagues and legal counsel.

966     It is unclear how the results of the marketing demand study were used to establish your projected revenues.


967     Could you please walk us through that, as to how your projections were arrived at.

968     MR. SKI:  Certainly.  I should mention that when we look at a market like Calgary, we come at it in a couple of different ways.

969     First of all, because we do have Hot AC radio stations across the country and other radio stations, we first look at the opportunities, depending on where we are with the developmental lifecycle of that particular radio station.  That is the first thing.

970     We can look at information that we have in terms of revenues and say:  Does this really make sense?  If it makes sense, we have certainly an anecdotal idea of really maybe where the number might be.

971     What I will do is I will have Kerry maybe take you through the bottom‑up approach that we take, which takes our audience research and develops the revenue figures out of that.  Then maybe Ken Goldstein can look at it from a top‑down approach.

972     So we come at it a number of different ways to try to get obviously the most reliable figures that we possibly can.

973     Kerry.

974     MS FRENCH:  Thanks, Paul.


975     It does start with the research.  On page 5 of the ARI Study, it says that 41 percent of our respondents said that they would be interested in the Hot AC format; 60 percent of that 41 percent said that it could be their favourite radio station.

976     That translates to a figure of 25 percent of the market.  That is a pretty big fishing hole.  It is a matter of catching the fish and how many of those fish you catch.

977     Our experience is that we can convert between 35 and 40 percent of those people, which means that the potential for a radio station really is a 10 percent share.

978     The path to reaching that potential takes a lot of effort and a lot of time.

979     First you have to craft a really great radio station.  You have to promote it with great marketing campaigns.  You form a connection with your audience, and you grow your share of tuning over time.

980     CHUM has a great deal of experience in doing this, and we have lots of top‑rated radio stations across the country.

981     So initially to determine what a realistic share of that 10 percent potential is in the first year, we look at three basic things.


982     First of all:  What current radio stations have the tuning that will come to us and how much of that tuning will we take from them?

983     Is there tuning to out‑of‑market radio stations because the Hot AC format isn't available in the market?  And how much of that can we repatriate?

984     And the third things is:  Will the radio station create new tuning, brand new tuning in the market?

985     The research study told us that the Hot AC partisans are currently listening to several radio stations in the Calgary market.  This tuning is spread out over stations like:  the Vibe; the Top 40 station; CHFM Lite 96, which is an AC station; JACK FM, a Classic Hit station; and CJAY92, which is a Classic Rock station.

986     They listen to these stations by default because there is no station delivering the kind of music that they want to hear.  It is not available in the market.  When we offer the music that they want to hear, we assume that some of that tuning will migrate to us.


987     Based on our experience and our judgment of having done this before and having top rated radio stations across the country, we are estimating that we will take between 5 and 7 percent of the tuning away from these radio stations.  And it is a relatively minimal amount.

988     We will also have a minor impact on Country 105.  If you look at BBM numbers across the country, you see that Hot AC stations share audience or duplicate with Country stations.  Country is also slightly female directed, so it is understandable that we will affect them to a small degree; once again, 5 percent.

989     We also estimate that we will repatriate approximately 10 percent of the out‑of‑market tuning in Calgary.

990     Going back again to the research, the study told us that Hot AC partisans listen to between two and a half and three and a half hours less than partisans to other formats.  So we think that giving them what they need will bring that tuning back into the market.

991     When you add all of these bits of tuning up, you reach a total of approximately 914,000 hours of tuning, and that translates to 5.2 percent of total tuning in the market.


992     We then look at an average TSL, or time spent listening, across the Hot AC stations in major markets in Canada.  That is about 7.2 hours per week.  That is an average 7.2.  Some listeners will listen 25 hours; some listeners will listen two.  But that averages to 7.2.

993     We can then calculate what the actual average quarter hour reach and rating figures are for various demographics.

994     Radio is generally priced based on a cost per point model on the major buying demographic of adults 25 to 54.  CPP, or cost per point, is the cost of reaching 1 percent of the market or one rating point.

995     Calgary has seen huge growth in the CPP for the market in the last several years, and that explains some of the great increases in radio revenue that you have seen over the past several years.  Because Calgary has been such a high demand market in radio, the local stations have been able to raise their rates quite significantly over the past five years.

996     The market currently trades at about $55 to $60 cost per point.  A new entrant in the market can't demand the same level of rate or cost per point that the existing stations do.  So we know that our starting cost per point would be less than that.


997     We can then, based on that cost per point, calculate what our rate card would look like and what kinds of rates we would be able to charge.

998     Once again going back to our experience in other markets, we know what our sell‑out factors would be, how much of our inventory we would sell over time, over the first year and second year, and how that would grow.  That is how we determine very mathematically what our potential revenue would be over the first year and subsequent years.

999     I know that sounds like a long path to get from one to the other, but it really is a series of mathematical calculations.

1000     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  In your experience in other markets ‑‑ like you say, you just recently launched in Edmonton a year ago ‑‑ how close were your projections in that example?

1001     MR SKI:  Actually, our projections are somewhat close.  We had a few challenges, one of which was we got started later than we would have normally started.


1002     Since that time, also, another radio station launched that was licensed.  So whenever that happens, it slows down.  We had great momentum and it slows down your momentum a little bit.  We are now in the process of catching up.

1003     Also, one of our other competitors in the market recently changed format.

1004     So we got off to a bit of a slow start, a little slower than we had wanted to.  But we are starting to catch up now.  We think that probably by the end of this fiscal year we will be almost on target or very close, at least midway through the second year.

1005     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So in your historical experience, these projections are fairly accurate?

1006     MR. SKI:  We think so.  I might ask Ken to give you that sort of top‑down approach.

1007     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  All right.

1008     MR. KEN GOLDSTEIN:  Thank you, Paul.

1009     The exercise that Kerry described is truly a bottom‑up approach.  It puts all of the pieces together and multiplies by the appropriate rates, and so on.


1010     We came at it on a market approach, top‑down approach.  We first projected the market, related those projections to retail trade so it's not some arbitrary "let's take a percentage here, percentage there".  You have to check back with retail trade projections, which we got from the Conference Board, and it has to be within a range of reasonableness.

1011     We then applied the market share and worked out our own curve, if you will, of how the market share would translate into revenue.

1012     The curve in this case, the pattern of the relationship between revenue and share, it is lower initially.  Then, of course, as the station matures, you start to get into the same range, and then here by the seventh year you are actually getting a revenue share slightly higher than the audience share.

1013     It acts as a reality check.

1014     The two together give you confidence that this is on the right track.

1015     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you very much, Mr. Switzer and Mr. Ski.

1016     That concludes my questions for the CHUM panel.

1017     MR. SKI:  Thank you.

1018     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

1019     I will ask Mr. Langford now, who has a question for you.

1020     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


1021     I will try not to keep you.  You have given us a lot of words and a lot of information, and we are grateful.

1022     There is just a couple of areas where I might want to test this new positive CHUM attitude here which has come to Calgary.

1023     I looked at your application and I looked at your supplementary brief, and I listened to you this morning, at page 11, bemoaning that there is not a Hot AC here and the effect is "denying many Canadian artists much needed airplay".

1024     Of course, I agree.  Anything that denies Canadian artists much needed airplay is a bad thing.  If you're coming into town in a white hat on a white horse to do something about that, that makes me a happy guy.

1025     I kept reviewing it, though, because there was something that was bothering me, and I finally hit it.

1026     If you want to do all this for Canadian artists, why is your Cancon level only 35 percent?

1027     MR. SKI:  That's a good question.

1028     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Good.


1029     MR. SKI:  Not that there are ever any bad questions.

1030     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I bet that's not what you say later.

‑‑‑ Laughter

1031     MR. SKI:  No.  We have thought long and hard about that, as you can appreciate.  This is a format that relies a little bit more, quite a bit more, on current music.  We felt that the best way to help the development of Canadian talent ‑‑ and I will have Rob get into a little bit on the details of the artists.

1032     Our feeling was the best way to help Canadian artists was not necessarily to have a 40 percent number but to keep it at 35 percent and do other things: other things that we felt were more important to the artist.

1033     We are not going to be able to rely on that much gold.  If we could default ‑‑ which we could ‑‑ default to 40 percent or default to a station or a format where we had more emphasis on gold music as opposed to current music, it really defeats the purpose of helping emerging indie artists and emerging artists.  It really defeats the purpose.

1034     And we think that might be the only way to remain competitive, if we were at 40 percent.


1035     As a result, we thought rather than that, let's go in at 35 percent.  We feel very comfortable with that.  That is certainly the existing regulation, is 35 percent.  So we thought we fell into line there.

1036     We thought the better way to approach it was with our other Canadian Talent Development initiatives.

1037     I will ask Rob to comment further, as a programmer of a radio station.

1038     MR. FARINA:  First of all, I want to say that all Hot AC stations in Canada are operating at 35 percent.  It is a meaningful 35 percent, and let me explain what that means.

1039     What that means is that what the industry has seen in the last couple of years is a move from current based radio station to gold based radio stations to help fulfil their Canadian content commitment.  What that means is they are able to fulfil that commitment based on many different decades of already proven hit songs, which really I don't think fulfils the goal that Canadian content should fulfil, which is to focus on building new and emerging artists and building a star system for our artists.


1040     I want to quote from one of our positive intervenors.  There is a lot of thoughtful letters, but there is a line here from Gregg Terrence from the Canadian Independent Recording Artists Association, which says:

"The CIRAA believes that smarter Cancon is better than simply more Cancon.  As we have seen since the increase to 35 percent in 1998, radio has simply lengthened the period of time it spins a Canadian track.  In our view, this has not contributed to more development and discovery of Canadian emerging artists."

1041     One of the things with this format is that so much of the format is comprised of emerging artists and specifically the Canadian content component is comprised of emerging artists.  An increase from that puts us in a position where we need to play more gold titles, and what we are finding on the operational level on radio stations is a lot of those gold titles have become very burned out on the listener front.


1042     That is why great Canadian artist like Amanda Marshall can't get a record deal right now, because her music has been so burned.  Jan Arden suffers the same thing; Shania Twain, Sarah Mclachlan.

1043     This format, because it is focused on emerging artists, I think provides a more meaningful benefit to the system.

1044     As well as that are the benefits that this application has on the table with our Emerging Indie Artist Initiative, which will see up to 12 new artists gain national exposure through concentrated airplay, promotion, marketing and rack space, as well as our focused promotion on the Calgary music scene.

1045     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, you may not have liked the satellite radio decision, but it looks like you learned something from it anyway.

1046     I want to see if I can help you push up that 35 percent number.  At first I thought you might be going to tell me it was a typo.  That can happen with word processors, you know.  You just have the number in there and it just keeps appearing and everybody is comfortable with it and nobody thinks to change it.  But of course if it were a typo, there would be nothing we could do about it, because you are bound by it.


1047     You have an interesting answer about less gold and more new, and smarter rather than more.  That is interesting.

1048     So let me see if there isn't a way we could push this up without getting in an unseemly bidding war.  So your answers will be interesting to my next few questions.

1049     I want to look at this initiative for the emerging artists which gives them 15 spins per week here in Calgary, and other places too.  But let's just focus on Calgary and the 35 percent.

1050     Would those 15 spins a week be above and beyond the 35 percent Canadian content?  Is that extra Canadian content or is that part of the 35 percent Canadian content?

1051     MR. SKI:  At the current time that is part of the 35 percent Canadian content.

1052     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It is?  Well, I've got to give you marks for honesty because I thought you might jump on that one.

1053     The Demo Depot, one hour per week, as I read it, of Canadians ‑‑ I assume they are Canadians, aren't they, in the Demo Depot?

1054     MR. FARINA:  That's correct.  Yes, Canadian independent ‑‑


1055     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Is that above and beyond the 35 percent, or might that be a little more?

1056     MR. SKI:  That is part of the 35 percent too.

1057     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I'm getting nowhere.  I am trying to help you and I'm getting nowhere.

1058     Promoting the CDs on air.  Is that part of the 35 percent or would that be extra?

1059     MR. SKI:  Are you talking about the commercial ‑‑

1060     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, I thought you were going to play them a bit too, wouldn't you?

1061     MR. SKI:  Those are the spins.

1062     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Oh, those are the spins.  But there are more people.  You said there were going to be six extra artists on the CDs.

1063     Would you be playing some of their stuff too?

1064     MR. SKI:  Yes, we would.

1065     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And would that be part of the 35?

1066     MR. SKI:  Yes, it would.

1067     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I'm doing my best.  I am giving you every opportunity.


1068     I think you should give that some thought.  There will be other phases here.

1069     Assuming they were not part of the 35 just for a moment ‑‑ although you are very clear now that they are.  If you take ‑‑ and I know this would be rough math, but you guys know how to run a radio station.

1070     If you take 15 extra Canadian spins a week, if you take an hour ‑‑ and I don't know how many spins there would be during that hour, but you would know.  If you take the spins that would be in that Demo Depot hour and any extra promotional spins for your CDs, do you have any idea how far that might push up your Cancon?

1071     MR. SKI:  I'm not sure that we have a number.  We can certainly calculate that number and certainly in reply come back and give you a number.

1072     This is, I guess, one of those ‑‑ we had not thought of the things that you are talking about.

1073     Like a few of the other initiatives that we had mentioned earlier, we had a first and a second choice, and they were both the same.

1074     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Right.


1075     MR. SKI:  You are probably coming to realize that now.

1076     But certainly we can look at the options that you are suggesting here and see in fact what difference that makes ‑‑

1077     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It would be interesting to know, to see whether we couldn't inspire you to move in that direction a little bit.

1078     I will leave that with you on reply.

1079     On another subject ‑‑ and I'm almost done.

1080     I listened very carefully to your discussions in conversation with my colleague Mr. Williams, but I don't think I heard ‑‑ and I am moving now to the AVR commitment.  Sorry, I should have introduced this.

1081     Outside of the fact that there will be a letter, I don't think I actually heard what kind of controls you envisage having in place here.

1082     Are you essentially just going to hand over a cheque for $642,000 or do you have some sort of auditor general role on this as well?

1083     MR. SKI:  Commissioner Langford, I will Duff to comment on that.


1084     As he mentioned, we have had several discussions with AVR on how these funds would be spent, but Duff will provide a little bit more insight.

1085     MR. ROMAN:  Well, beyond the letter that we have submitted to you, dated July 26th, in which CHUM and Jamie Hill agree to the nature of the $4,515,000 being spent, we don't have any due process or governance procedures spelled out at this point.

1086     We have a way of getting them up and running rapidly with the first instalment of $645,000.  We have continued our dialogue with them with regard to how important it is that our relationship be for the long term.

1087     We have offered to provide them with in‑kind services not reflected in the $4,515,000.

1088     I think there is an understanding, Commissioner Langford, that with us as in a sense their principal banker, they relate very much to the kinds of guidelines and good business practices that we hope to bring in our partnership to AVR.

1089     The short answer is the agreement we have with them at this point is embodied in that letter of July 26th.

1090     MR. SKI:  Commissioner Langford, I might ask Jay Switzer to comment.


1091     MR. SWITZER:  Commissioner Langford, that is a very reasonable and clearly important question.

1092     These are significant funds.  This is a very important project for us; we think a very worthy project for the Canadian broadcasting system.  There will be appropriate contracts in place, and we would of course be happy to file with the Commission those copies.

1093     We share the same concerns:  that the funds are used exactly as intended for this project.  And you can rest assured that will happen.

1094     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We are always happy to take your paper, as they say.  And that's fine.  I appreciate that.

1095     I don't want to sound negative here.  You folks know me as a positive guy.  Ask Fred Sherratt.  He'll tell you.

1096     Let's take something beyond everybody's control.  I am not trying to in any way imply that anybody would misappropriate anything or use something incorrectly, but let me build a very quick scenario.


1097     You put out the 642,000 bucks, which is supposed to be earmarked Calgary first and then maybe Edmonton, as you painted, and then maybe Vancouver or something.  Then there is an emergency in Toronto.  Just an emergency.  All hell breaks loose.  Somewhere equipment fails.  Who knows?  And being human, people respond to emergencies and before you know it, most of your $642,000, which you thought was going to Calgary, Edmonton and other points west, has gone to Toronto for perfectly understandable reasons.  But all of a sudden you have a problem again here in Calgary.

1098     Those are the sorts of controls I was wondering about.

1099     I don't know if you have given any thought to that.  It is a lot of money.  I know there is a new team there and everybody is pretty inspired by them, but still they are an unknown quantity at this point.

1100     How would you respond to a scenario like that?

1101     MR. SWITZER:  We have great confidence that the team in place will get the job done.  However, it is a fair question.


1102     We are convinced that they will do all the things, build and grow and launch as expected, but we are a company that also has to make sure that the monies that we spend are spent exactly; that we have the protections and checks and balances in place not to get in their business, not to be part of their management, but to ensure that the monies we give them, that we have protections along the way that they are doing the things they say they are going to do.

1103     We have to report, not only to you but to our own shareholders.  We are a publicly traded company.

1104     We are convinced that their plan is valid and strong and that our monies are going to go toward what needs to be done.

1105     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you.  I think that is as much as you can probably say, but I personally would be interested to see some of this paper, just to see how it folds out should you be successful here at this application stage.

1106     I have one last question.  It is a bit philosophical, and it may lead to another question but it is the last sort of issue.  Again it is on AVR.

1107     Generally, I am trying to assess in my own mind ‑‑ and I have been since I read your proposal and the way you fleshed it out in the supplementary brief.

1108     I am trying to assess in my own mind precisely how we should regard this expenditure of $4.5 million to AVR.  I will tell you what I mean.


1109     I can't for the life of me figure out whether it is a good precedent or a bad precedent, and this is the trouble I have with it ‑‑ not trouble, it's a difficulty.  I don't want to use a negative connotation at all.  It's a personal difficulty I have trying to assess this.

1110     I know how to assess 40 percent Canadian content versus 35.  It is theoretically better unless you have come up with a good reason why it shouldn't be.  I know how to assess higher CTD versus lower.  More is always better but, as you know, sometimes the Commission looks at other aspects of an application and says:  Okay, for other reasons, even though it's lower CTD, we are going to pick applicant B over A.

1111     We still have a sense of how we assess this, how we regard it.

1112     I am looking at something here which in this particular instance is very much tied to the broadcasting industry.  So it has a certain strength.  It has a nexus.  It has a connection.


1113     I wonder what would happen if six months from now we receive an application where some commercial enterprise like your own says:  We are going to give $4.5 million to breast cancer research or the Heart and Stroke Fund, or something like that.  That is a really good thing to do from a public service perspective, but how do we regard it?

1114     Is this a precedent for a move in that direction?

1115     I told you it would be philosophical, but it does interest me.  I don't know about my colleagues.  It is something that I have been playing in my mind.

1116     MR. SKI:  Commissioner Langford, I will make a comment and also ask Kevin Goldstein.

1117     We know that in a number of radio licence decisions over the last few years the Commission has recognized that support for AVR contributes to fulfilment of the objectives of the Act.  That is why we thought it was appropriate in this particular case.

1118     Breast cancer is obviously a very good case too, but it is maybe not quite as appropriate as it relates to the Act.

1119     I think the Commission itself has said that these types of contributions are beneficial to the broadcasting system as a whole.


1120     So that is where we see, I think, the differentiation maybe between the two: between whether it might be fund raising for cancer or some other initiative.

1121     MR. SWITZER:  Commissioner Langford, if I might add, we do understand this is a special situation.  As Paul just said, we are trying to respond to a particular situation that has been recognized as a priority for the Commission, or certainly eligible as an important part of the system and a priority for the system.

1122     We do understand there is a special situation as to how to deal with this contribution.  What we tried to be clear on today was whether it is part of and defined as an eligible CTD inclusion or whether or not we stand here before you fully prepared to be accountable and transparent and to make it part of a condition of licence, however you may choose to define it.

1123     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I think that's enough.  I think I understand the general spirit in which this is done.  I find your point, Mr. Ski, to be probably right on.  I am a little embarrassed that I didn't think of it myself.

1124     That does tie it, doesn't it.  It is not just doing good.  It is doing good within the terms of section 3 of the Broadcasting Act.


1125     Thanks very much.

1126     Those are my questions, Mr. Chair.

1127     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Langford.

1128     I have Madam del Val next.

1129     COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I am just trying to understand your revenue projections a little bit better.

1130     I am looking at your seven‑year projections and I think you are probably ranking No. 2, with an annual average increase of I think 22 percent over the seven years.  I think only the Jim Pattison Group is higher than your projections.

1131     I also recognize that your Conference Board retail sales growth projection is about the same as the numbers I have; about 5.1 percent.

1132     Then my Calgary radio ad revenues actual growth from 1994 to 2005 is about 8.3 percent.  I think that might differ from yours a bit.

1133     I would like to hear your comments on whether you feel that your projections are aggressive, conservative or bang on.

1134     MR. SKI:  Well, I'll say that they are bang on.  That is normally the way we like to do projections.


1135     I will have Kerry run through the projections a little bit with you.

1136     As we mentioned earlier, we come to these revenue projections in three different ways.  That is why they are not too hot, not too cold.  We think they are pretty bang on, or the best we can do given the fact that this particular radio station is not currently on the air.

1137     But given our experience and given all of the other mathematical calculations, certainly it is our best guestimate.  We can't really speak to the others, but certainly from our standpoint.

1138     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Not too hot and not too cold; just hot with AC.

1139     MR. SKI:  That's right.  Cold AC isn't a format as yet.

1140     MS FRENCH:  I think from our point of view, from our experience, it tells us that when you are putting on a new radio station the biggest growth years from a percentage standpoint are usually the second, third and fourth years.

1141     It is a matter of now a radio station matures.


1142     I think Ken Goldstein referred to it earlier, about the ratio between your share of tuning and share of revenue in the market.  We call that a power ratio.

1143     Generally some formats have higher power ratios than other formats.  Hot AC generally has a very positive power ratio, but it takes a while to grow to get there when we are starting out at about a .5 power ratio in the first year and growing over seven years to more of a one‑to‑one ratio.

1144     That is what our experience tells us in our other Hot AC markets as to how that growth curve builds.

1145     I think it depends also where you start, where your first year projection is, how those percentages roll out over seven years.  That is why you might see differences in the other applicants.

1146     COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I guess the question I should have asked is you sound quite reasoned in how you looked at your financials and yet you come out the second highest in your revenue projections.

1147     I am sure you have looked at the financial projections of the other applicants.


1148     Are they more conservative than you would have been obviously, or do you find that they were conservative with reason?  What comment would you make about the projections of the others, which seem a lot lower?

1149     MS FRENCH:  Well, I think, Commissioner, that some were more reasonable than others and it really does relate to format and the format opportunity and the audience potential of the various formats.

1150     I think the biggest hole in the market is Hot AC, so I think the biggest potential is with Hot AC.

1151     I am not sure I would use the word "conservative" to describe our projections, but I would use the word "reasonable".  I think that is what we try to do in all of our budgeting and projection processes: to be reasonable and, as we said before, come at it from bottom‑up and top‑down to make sure that we are accurate.

1152     COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

1153     In your first year, between the first and second year, you have a 64 percent increase in your revenue projections and in your submission your projected impact on the incumbents is 20 percent.

1154     Should those numbers relate?  How should I interpret those numbers?  Should I look for a relationship between the numbers?


1155     MS FRENCH:  Well, there is a relationship.  However, the 60 percent refers to our revenue only.  We are starting off at a much lower level than the current radio stations that we would be competing with are at.

1156     So 20 percent of theirs would be a much bigger percent of ours.  I think it is just the basis to where you start.

1157     COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you very much.

1158     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Ski, in a question from Mr. Williams, Mr. Williams asked you how many stations the market could allow and you answered obviously yours plus another FM.

1159     We have also an AM applicant here.  Do you mean by that that you totally disagree with the licensing of an AM station?  Or do you have any other comment?

1160     MR. SKI:  No, we don't disagree with that.

1161     I think I may have misspoken in that we feel that there is room for two FM stations, certainly at this particular point in time.  And depending on what the format is for the AM station, you could probably license an AM station also.


1162     THE CHAIRPERSON:  As well; okay.

1163     Mr. Roman, in replying regarding AVR, you said that a letter of understanding, a signed letter of understanding between AVR and CHUM had been filed.

1164     I have perused the public record quickly and I haven't seen that letter ‑‑ unless staff corrects me.

1165     No.  Staff says that it is not in the public file.

1166     Could you take an undertaking to file that letter?

1167     MR. ROMAN:  Yes, we will undertake that as soon as possible.

1168     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Fine.  Thank you very much, Mr. Roman.

1169     If the Commission were to grant more than one licence ‑‑ I am coming back to this ‑‑ which one of the other applicants would have a negative effect on your business plan and why?

1170     MR. SKI:  There are a lot of test questions here today.


1171     I think certainly one of the other formats that targets males as opposed to females would be one of the things that I think we would look at.  We are obviously one of the few that targets females.

1172     I think Kerry has a comment with regard to the different formats that are available and, if we had a choice, which other one would we select.

1173     MS FRENCH:  Thank you, Paul.

1174     That is a difficult question to answer, but from a demographic point of view the less overlap in potential audience, the better.  There are several applications that are serving the 45‑plus audience, which really is in some ways complementary to us serving the under‑45 audience.

1175     I am not sure I would suggest which one of those, but one that is truly serving the older audience would have less impact on a Hot AC.

1176     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

1177     I will ask our legal counsel if she has any questions.

1178     MS BENNETT:  I just have one further follow‑up matter.

1179     You just indicated to Mr. Arpin that you would file a copy of our letter of agreement with AVR.  In the context of your discussion with Mr. Williams, I think you also referred to a letter reflecting CHUM's understanding of the commitment with respect to AVR.


1180     Is that a separate letter or is that the letter that you are just ‑‑ okay, it's the same one.

1181     MR. SKI:  It's the same letter.

1182     MS BENNETT:  Thank you very much.

1183     THE CHAIRPERSON:  In your own words, Mr. Ski, could you, in no more than five minutes, give us the reasons why the Commission should retain your application.

1184     MR. SKI:  Thank you, Mr. Vice‑Chair and Members of the Commission.

1185     The approval of this application is obviously very important to CHUM.  Calgary is one of the few markets in Canada that we don't serve.  We think that our proposal should be approved for some of the following reasons.

1186     First of all, as we have said, our proposal for a Hot AC radio station responds to what we believe is the most underserved segment of the Calgary population.  It adds more diversity to the market in terms of music.  It adds more diversity to the market in terms of representation of artists who are currently not getting exposure here and adds a new voice in terms of spoken word.


1187     Second, it provides a gateway to a multitude of emerging Canadian artists who are getting little or no airplay in Calgary.  That is a function primarily of the Hot AC format which, as we mentioned, is a main staple of most other major markets, but not Calgary.

1188     Third, our music related Canadian Talent Development initiatives were developed with the music industry, and they were developed to provide maximum impact for emerging and indie artists.  It's the group that we all believe deserves the most attention in the current environment.

1189     We have taken a multi‑pronged approach to this.  Not only are we offering more airplay to these particular artists, we are offering also promotion for these artists.  In addition to that, we are offering a retail sales opportunity for these artists.

1190     So there is play, there is promotion and an opportunity for people to actually buy the CDs.

1191     As Rob mentioned earlier, people who are buying CDs are this particular age group.  These people aren't downloading songs.  They are actually buying the physical CDs.


1192     Fourth, we think we add additional diversity in the Calgary radio market, not only with the new station and the fact that it's Hot AC, but by enabling the launch of AVR for Calgary's significant urban aboriginal population.

1193     So in effect, there are two new stations in the Calgary market ‑‑ and maybe three; but ours certainly and AVR's extension of their service.

1194     And lastly something that is maybe less tangible in terms of dollars but also of significant importance is the fact that what we are trying to do is create local centres of excellence where our radio and TV stations work hand in hand to develop Canadian talent, provide an outlook for local community organizations and also give additional opportunities to tell truly local stories.

1195     We are actually quite proud of the local magic that we think we have created in many Canadian markets where we have radio and TV, like Ottawa, London and Victoria, and perhaps our best and most recent example is what we have been able to accomplish in a very, very short time in Edmonton.

1196     We want to thank you very much for your time today, and we look forward to seeing you again in the reply phase.

1197     Thank you very much.

1198     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Ski.


1199     Thank you to everyone in your group.

1200     We will recess for 15 minutes and we will be back at 3:15 with the following applicant.

1201     Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1500 / Suspension à 1500

‑‑‑ upon resuming at 1515 / Reprise à 1515

1202     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.

1203     Can you be seated, please.

1204     Madam Secretary, please.

1205     THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

1206     We will proceed with Item 3 on the agenda, which is an application by 1182743 Alberta Ltd. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Calgary.

1207     The new station would operate on frequency 92.9 MHz (channel 225C1) with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts (non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 301.7 metres.)

1208     Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Paul Larsen, who will introduce his colleagues.

1209     You have 20 minutes for your presentation.

1210     Mr. Larsen.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION


1211     MR. LARSEN:  Thank you, Madam Secretary.

1212     Mr. Vice‑Chairman, Commissioners, CRTC staff, good afternoon.  My name is Paul Larsen and we are very excited to be here this afternoon to present our application for a new FM radio station to serve Calgary.

1213     First, it is my pleasure to introduce you to our panel.

1214     I will do it a little differently than it is laid out on the paperwork we gave you because of the table presentation, but I am sure I can adequately introduce who they are and where they are sitting.

1215     To my right, your left, is Rick  Volpatti.  Rick is 38 and a 20‑year radio veteran.  Rick has held positions ranging from announcer to production manager, to programming and creative director.  He has spent the past 14 years right here in Calgary radio.


1216     To be part of our application, Rick recently resigned his position at Newcap Calgary.  If licensed, Rick will join our company in the senior management position of Director of Programming.  He was instrumental in developing many of the aspects of our application and is very knowledgeable about the music we will play.

1217     Next to Rick is Desiree Daniel.  Desiree is 28 and grew up in a radio station, literally.  Her father is Gene Daniel, a career broadcaster and owner who just celebrated his 40th year in radio.  She is currently with SILK FM, Kelowna, in a multi‑faceted position that includes sales, marketing and promotions.

1218     Desiree writes for a Kelowna newspaper, an on‑line service, and she previously owned her own company in Vancouver coaching individuals and small business owners.

1219     If licensed, Desiree will join our company in the senior management position of Director of Marketing.

1220     To my left, your right, is Mary McKinnon Mills.  Mary is the President of Norscot Holdings Ltd., my business partner in this application.

1221     And finally, next to Mary is Brenda Stonnell.  Brenda is Norscot's chief financial officer.


1222     Again, my name is Paul Larsen.  I am 36 years old, and this is my 20th year in radio.  Over the years I have worked my way up from announcer to program director, general manager and, most recently, President of Island Radio on Vancouver Island.

1223     I am a 50 percent shareholder and President of our new company, 1182743 Alberta Ltd.  If licensed, I will return to Calgary and head up our new company and radio station.

1224     I spent 12 years in Alberta radio, five of those right here in Calgary, in senior programming positions with Corus and Newcap.

1225     I, like Rick, am very familiar with this Calgary market.

1226     This application is the result of our deep rooted passion for radio.  It was written entirely by us.  Everything presented are ideas conceived by the people sitting at this table and is the result of our collective and lengthy service in this great business.

1227     We strongly believe that the future of radio in Canada depends on innovative new leaders stepping forward with creative and exciting applications such as this one we are about to present.


1228     MR. VOLPATTI:  If licensed, our radio station will be called "The Lounge".  As you can see on the screen, The Lounge was inspired by the fact that many of the artists we will play are commonly labelled "lounge singers".  It's a flashback to the lounge scene of the 1960s and 1970s which our target audience remembers fondly.

1229     We call our format Modern Nostalgia.  Our format is not just old songs.  At least 50 percent of our music will be newer than 1981, to comply with the hit/non‑hit rules.  This exciting mix of new and old music creates an especially unique and exciting sound.

1230     Canadians are leading the way in the creation of this music style:  artists like Michael  Buble, Matt Dusk and Diana Krall.  Sadly, these great Canadian artists receive minimal airplay on Calgary radio, something we propose to fix.

1231     Of significance is the number of relatively unknown Canadian artists that will receive regular prime time airplay on The Lounge:  artists such as Dawn Aitken, Andrea Menard, John Alcorn, Suzie Vinnick, Richard Abel, Sophie Milman, Denzel Sinclair.  And there are many other artists we don't have time to mention but are named in our supplementary brief.

1232     The Lounge will also feature Canadian superstars such as Anne Murray, Gordon Lightfoot, Randy Bachman and Paul Anka, who are still producing new music and touring.  They too suffer from a lack of airplay in Calgary.


1233     The Lounge will play not only their established hits but also their new music.

1234     The Lounge also will feature international artists, many of them lesser known singers, again ensuring diversity:  names like Steve Tyrell, Renee Olstead, Jamie Cullum ‑‑ not household names, but exceptional new artists recording great music.

1235     The Lounge will feature well‑known artists who are re‑recording great standards and new songs in the standards style:  artists like Rod Stewart, Natalie Cole, Harry Connick Jr. and others.

1236     We will play the artists who originated and pioneered this music style:  Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Nat King Cole, Tony Bennett and many others.

1237     And we will play the singers from the 1970s and 1980s ‑‑ artists who, despite their superstar status, receive very little airplay on Calgary radio:  names like Barry Manilow, Barbra Streisand, Neil Diamond and others.  And again, we will play their new music in addition to the hits.

1238     Finally, The Lounge will play a very small percentage of instrumentals, less than 3 percent of our music.  And to protect Calgary's Smooth Jazz specialty FM, none will be smooth jazz songs.


1239     The Lounge will blend these diverse music styles together to create an appealing mix of music, new and old, targeted to Calgary's adult audience.

1240     MR. LARSEN:  The Lounge will bring an independent information voice to Calgary.  We will place a significant emphasis on spoken word relating to news, our music, the community and the lifestyle of Calgary's adult population.

1241     None of Calgary's commercial FM stations emphasize news.  In our July Market Monitor we found virtually no news on FM radio after 8:30 a.m.  Only CKRY aired short updates at 4:00 and 5:00 p.m.  There was no news on commercial FM radio between 8:30 a.m. and 4:00 p.m. and it has not improved since.  Weekend news is also virtually non‑existent.

1242     If licensed, The Lounge will provide hourly, locally produced newscasts between 6:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. weekdays and 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. on weekends.

1243     And 93.8 percent of respondents to our research said "news and information specific to Calgary" is important.  And we will provide it.


1244     We propose to hire three news staff in Year 1.  This, to the best of our knowledge, will be the largest dedicated FM radio newsroom in Calgary.

1245     In total, The Lounge will provide 93 newscasts per week, totalling 4 hours and 33 minutes.

1246     Other spoken word including traffic, sports, business, arts and entertainment will total another 4 hours and 54 minutes weekly.

1247     The Lounge will air a daily magazine program called "Calgary at Noon" and a weekend lifestyle program called "Life on The Lounge".

1248     We will air "Artist Spotlights" five times daily featuring artists in their own words, connecting directly with our audience.  At least 50 percent of these will be Canadian.

1249     The Lounge will feature "Old Time Radio Shows" nightly.  We are also hoping to broadcast CBC's original "Sunday Showcase" dramas, featuring Canada's finest writers and actors, exposing them to a broader audience.

1250     Our spoken word programming totals 23 hours and 9 minutes weekly, approximately 18 percent of the broadcast week.


1251     We have made this strong commitment to spoken word based on what Calgary adults told us in our research and because we believe it is the content that airs between the records that makes a radio station truly unique and engaging.

1252     MS DANIEL:  It's amazing how radio has the power to work so closely with the community.  The Lounge will be highly supportive of local events, charities, the arts and entertainment community and non‑profit organizations.

1253     Calgary has more than 20 annual festivals representing virtually every ethnic group, and The Lounge will be front and centre, broadcasting live from each of them.

1254     Some of these events include:  The Calgary Stampede, The Children's Festival, The Mosaic Community Cultural Festival, Shakespeare in the Park, The Pride Festival, The Folk Festival, The Africa‑Day Festival, The Reggae Festival, "Expo Latino", The Calgary International Film Festival and many others.

1255     Calgary is home to a number of professional and amateur theatre groups:  The Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra, Alberta Ballet, Calgary Opera and others, which The Lounge will proudly support.


1256     The Lounge will play a vital role through public service announcements to assist these important organizations with awareness and fund raising.  Many of these organizations wrote letters of support based solely on our promise to include them in our programming.

1257     From the experience and background of our team, we strongly believe that radio is a public service.

1258     MR. LARSEN:  Of those surveyed, 73.7 percent said "exposure and promotion of Canadian artists" is important.  Our Canadian Talent Development starts first and foremost with airplay.

1259     A cornerstone of our indirect CTD initiatives is a commitment to play new Canadian music.  We propose that at least 50 percent of our Canadian content will be songs that were released in 2000 or later.  This guarantees airplay of a high percentage of newer Canadian songs and artists.

1260     This initiative is unique and exclusive to our application.

1261     Further, to demonstrate our commitment to Canadian music, we will play 40 percent Canadian content over the broadcast week.

1262     Canadian artists told us what they need from radio is airplay and exposure.  The Lounge will ensure this through these two commitments.


1263     Our company is brand new.  In fact, this is our first application.  Unlike established companies, we cannot put multi‑million dollar cash commitments on the table for CTD.  The major companies can offset and fund their CTD through their vast, existing structure.

1264     We are, however, firm believers in Canadian Talent Development, both direct financial support and equally important non‑monetary means.

1265     Our direct CTD contribution will be $525,000 over the initial licence term, a significant amount of money for any new company.

1266     Most importantly 100 percent of our direct CTD will be spent right here in Calgary.  Our annual proposals include:

1267     ‑ Post secondary music and broadcasting bursaries.

1268     ‑ Funding for a made‑in‑Calgary international music summer school.

1269     ‑ Purchase of music instruments for Calgary schools.

1270     ‑ FACTOR, which Canadian artists told us is a critical source to their funding.  And we have ensured that our FACTOR contributions will come back to Calgary artists.

1271     ‑ The Alberta Recording Industries Association, dedicated to fostering Alberta artists.


1272     ‑ An original song competition which will benefit local and regional artists.

1273     ‑ And we have outlined in our application support for a number of other Calgary initiatives.

1274     And our direct CTD programs will be supported with significant airtime promotion.

1275     MR. VOLPATTI:  We also propose two significant indirect CTD initiatives.

1276     First is "The Indie Lounge", a weekly one‑hour program focusing on independent Canadian Music. While we'll be highly supportive of Canadian music throughout our programming, "The Indie Lounge" will give us a platform to explore artists more thoroughly.

1277     Second is a unique educational partnership with Calgary's leading broadcasting schools, which we call "Future Broadcasters".  If licensed, The Lounge will place students in actual paid jobs that will assist them in their education and development of their radio skills.  These positions will include on air, news and production.


1278     Mount Royal College and SAIT have reviewed our plan and will work with us to make our "Future Broadcasters" initiative a reality.  Representatives from both institutions have written letters confirming their support, and the head of Radio at Mount Royal will appear later in the hearing to express his strong support for our application.

1279     Our industry is facing a shortage of skilled performers, created in large part by the elimination of positions in favour of voice tracking and automation.  We are committed to helping replenish the pool of future broadcasters through this initiative.

1280     MS DANIEL:  Calgary is one of Canada's most culturally diverse cities.  Currently one in five Calgarians are of immigrant background.  The Lounge has already reached out to Calgary's ethnic population and, if licensed, we will make sure that our programming is inclusive of Calgary's entire population.

1281     Our News Department will take into account the ethnic diversity of Calgary and establish contact with the city's cultural communities to ensure The Lounge includes their news in our programming.

1282     Calgary has a rich First Nations history.  We will make a strong effort to foster a co‑operative and open relationship with the Su‑Tina Nation, as well as other Aboriginal populations in the region.


1283     We are committed to reflecting Calgary's diversity within our company as well.  We provided information to this in our application.

1284     Our music format lends itself perfectly to reflecting cultural diversity.  The vast and varied music styles that comprise The Lounge indicate and include artists and musicians from every background and region of Canada and beyond.  We will encourage Canadian artists of all backgrounds to submit new music for airplay consideration.

1285     MR. LARSEN:  Calgary is home to Canada's leading economy.  Retail sales, income and employment and real estate are among the strongest in Canada.  Calgary is second only to Toronto for corporate head offices and has Canada's highest percentage of post‑secondary educated citizens.

1286     Calgary is also rapidly growing.  In the past five years alone, Calgary's population has grown by over 95,000 people.  And the largest increases have occurred within the 45‑plus demographics, the target audience for The Lounge.


1287     As you can see on the slide, the 2004 municipal census shows the Calgary population of adults aged 45 and up totals 304,079 and increased 14.1 percent between 2001 and 2004.  By comparison, those aged 0 to 44 increased only 3.2 percent.

1288     Calgary's radio market is among the most financially vibrant in Canada.  Average annual revenue growth has been 7 percent over the past five years, growing from approximately $54 million in 2000 to almost $71 million in 2004.

1289     Of significant interest is the growth in local revenue since 2002, the year that CIQX‑FM and CIBK‑FM both signed on in Calgary.  Their addition to the market made a positive impact, significantly increasing dollars spent on radio advertising.  Both of these new stations added format diversity not previously available in Calgary, bringing new advertisers to radio.

1290     We expect the same result would occur if The Lounge is licensed.

1291     The 2004 PBIT margin in Calgary is also very strong, at 27.39 percent, significantly higher than the national average of 19.77 percent, and it has been higher for many consecutive years.

1292     The revenue and PBIT statistics clearly show that Calgary can sustain another FM service or services at this time.


1293     MR. VOLPATTI:  Ownership and market tuning in Calgary is dominated by three of Canada's largest media companies.  Combined, Corus, Standard and Rogers own 10 of the 12 commercial stations.  None of Calgary's stations are locally owned.

1294     The majority of commercial FM formats serve Calgary's younger demographics.  Total market tuning adults 12‑plus is quite strong.  However, tuning of adults 45‑plus is significantly less, indicating a lack of choice on the radio dial.

1295     The Lounge will increase local tuning among adults, attracting listeners with a format that is not available today.  We will repatriate listeners from satellite and cable, internet radio, CDs and MP3s and people who have given up on radio because they have been unable to find their music.

1296     Of the Calgarians we surveyed, 17.1 percent did not have a "favourite" radio station.  We believe The Lounge will be able to fill that void without impacting any existing stations.

1297     MR. LARSEN:  Our group has given this application considerable thought and extensive planning.  We invested in research to double check our instinct.

1298     Our proposed station will bring a new format to Calgary, one with virtually no overlap with existing stations.


1299     We will provide significant news and other spoken word elements that are important to our target demographic.

1300     And we realize that operating a radio station means operating a public service.  Community service will be the foundation upon which our company and our radio station is built.

1301     We realize that you do not often have a chance at this stage of a hearing to have an opportunity to hear the radio stations you are considering for licence.

1302     With that in mind, we would like to play a three‑minute audio sample and give you a brief idea of what The Lounge 92.9 will sound like.

‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip audio

1303     MR. LARSEN:  I would like to just point out that that audio sample meets every CRTC regulation.  It was 47 percent hit, 53 percent non‑hit; 40 percent Canadian content and 50 percent of the Canadian songs were from 2000 or later per our unique initiative to play newer Canadian music.  The audio sample shows how well we will be able to mix our proposed music genres to create a really engaging radio station.


1304     In closing, we are proud of this application.  We feel it is unique and innovative, qualities essential to the future of Canadian radio.  We're young, experienced, career broadcasters with 30 or more working years ahead of us to create compelling radio and we're hopeful to have that opportunity.

1305     We thank you for your attention, and we are now pleased and looking forward to answering your questions.

1306     Thank you.

1307     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Larsen.

1308     I notice that there is an attachment to your oral presentation.  Have those quotes been made available to the other applicants?

1309     MR. LARSEN:  The presentation that we gave you before we gave our oral presentation?

1310     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have here after a pink page ‑‑

1311     MR. LARSEN:  Yes, sir, I understand now.

1312     That is meant to be our closing five‑minute statement.

1313     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.

1314     MR. LARSEN:  I thought that you would have it to read along.


1315     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I apologize.

1316     I am the one who will be doing the questioning.

1317     My questions will really try to cover format and target audience, spoken word commitment, some clarification on Canadian content, your current content proposal, CTD clarifications, the demand for the proposed format and your projected revenue.

1318     Also, we will end with some alternative frequency clarification, and I will have some questions on ownership as well.

1319     I will start with the demographic that you want to serve, and here is my first question.

1320     You have identified your target audience for the overall proposed format of your station to be 45‑plus, yet when describing your spoken word programming you identified a 35‑plus demographic as your target and you claimed that they are underserved by the Calgary market current stations.

1321     Could you please clarify what demographic will make up your core target audience.

1322     MR. LARSEN:  Yes, sir.


1323     In doing the research study, we wanted to use a recognizable demographic from BBM, and 35‑64 was the most viable option there to target and to get the opinions of Calgary's adult audience.  We will narrowly target or focus on the 45‑plus segment of that audience.

1324     However, we are hopeful that our format with the amount of new music and younger artists that are in the format, that we will also get some 35‑44's listening.

1325     Our focus will be 45‑plus.

1326     THE CHAIRPERSON:  On page 21 of your supplementary brief, you state that your proposed radio station will target the underserved adult 25‑64 demographic, with a focus on the 45‑plus.

1327     On page 23, while reviewing the findings of the Telelink research, you note that the younger demo, the 35‑44, liked the newer music while the upper demo, 55‑plus, will like the older style of music in your sample.

1328     How will you reconcile the tastes of these two extremes in your target group?

1329     MR. LARSEN:  We found that by blending the music styles and genres and areas fairly close together that both audiences will have an appetite to listen to them combined.


1330     In other words, because of the hit/non‑hit rule, essentially every other song is a newer song and every other song is an older song.  And they play back to back.

1331     As we saw in the audio sample that we played for you, the music styles that are being remade today mix quite nicely with the older styles.  When we present them in that format, blended closely together, both the younger end of the demo and the older end of the demo seem to like the combined overall sound that is created.

1332     THE CHAIRPERSON:  We also notice that your suggested playlist, both in the playlist and your survey, included artists such as Perry Como, Roger Whittaker, Engelbert Humperdinck, Dean Martin, Tony Bennett, Glenn Miller, Bert Kaempfert, Herb Alpert and a few others that we also heard when you ran your audio.

1333     Why do you think that a 35‑year‑old adult, and even a 45‑year‑old person, will be interested in these artists?

1334     MR. LARSEN:  I can probably speak to that fairly clearly as I'm 36 years old, so I'm just one year on the other side of 35.


1335     What it is with the old music, with the Frank Sinatras and the Perry Comos and the Tony Bennetts, it's new music for people of my age.  We did not grow up with this music.  We did not grow up knowing these artists.

1336     So when we hear Frank Sinatra, it truly is new music to us because it is something that was not in our growing up.

1337     We have been investigating this with record stores and people that buy music, and it's not just 50 or 60 or 70‑year‑olds that are buying the Frank Sinatra remasters; in fact, it is the 30‑some‑year‑old people that are buying this music.

1338     There is such an appetite for it that if you go into any of the major record stores, HMV or Virgin or any of the big stores, or even the smaller stores, you see a lot of these classic artists being remade and re‑introduced to a younger generation; digitally remastered so the quality is better.

1339     There is a real appetite I think from young people to have a tie to the past and nostalgia.

1340     THE CHAIRPERSON:  In this hearing we will hear from three other applicants who are proposing similar formats entailing easy listening, adult contemporary and soft vocal music, yet they are clear that they will all target the 45‑plus demographic.

1341     How will your station format differ from these other applicants?


1342     MR. LARSEN:  I think first and foremost our unique commitment to play a higher percentage of Canadian music in our programming will differentiate us.  We are proposing 40 percent Canadian content as well.

1343     So from that point of view I think we have a couple of differences.

1344     Also, I think in the way that we blend the music styles, we have done a lot of sort of what I would call loose research; not formal phone‑out research, but just talking to people that we have played audio samples for in combining the music.

1345     And I think we have come up with a mix of music that blends basically going from a new song to an old song and ensuring that there is a high percentage of newer music in our programming and that we are not just trying to create a format that plays old music and targets specifically the older end of the demographic.

1346     I think our focus on new music as a major component is something that will set our application apart.

1347     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.


1348     In your application you make the observation that most Calgary radio stations target the 25‑44 demographic.  However, in support of your application you state that your target demographic of 35‑plus is underserved in the current Calgary radio market.

1349     Your statement appears to be contradictory because at least part of your target audience is served by current licensees.

1350     In what way do you feel that the 35‑44 audience is not sufficiently being served by current market offerings?

1351     MR. LARSEN:  Well, most clearly our music format will be one that is unduplicated in the market, so a lot of that age demographic, 35‑44, would be tuned into CKRY, the Country service, CKIS, which is JACK, the Classic Hit service, and perhaps the Classic Rock or the CJAY Rock station.

1352     So our music format will give a new choice to those 35‑to‑44 year olds that is not currently in their current listening preferences.

1353     THE CHAIRPERSON:  The fall 2005 BBM tuning data indicates that the 45‑plus age group tunes to a number of Calgary stations offering varied formats, such as Adult Contemporary, Oldies, New Stock and Smooth Jazz and Blues.


1354     This suggests that the 45‑plus audience is served in the current Calgary radio market.

1355     Why do you consider that the 45‑plus age group is being underserved in this market?

1356     MR. LARSEN:  I think specifically they have fewer radio stations that are targeted specifically to them.  There is no doubt that News Talk, CHQR, does a good job of targeting the adult demographic in the market.

1357     We pointed out that we are fully aware of CIQX, the Smooth Jazz specialty licence and believe it is an important part of the fabric here as a specialty licence.  And we would stay away from smooth jazz songs to protect that licence.

1358     Again, I think our music format would just add another choice so that the choice for the 45‑plus audience starts to number the same number of radio stations as the under‑45 audience.

1359     THE CHAIRPERSON:  We also notice that in your audio presentation you had Diana Krall, who usually is identified as a Smooth Jazz music player.  You just said that you will refrain from playing that type of music.  You already have it in your sample.

1360     MR. LARSEN:  Yes, sir.  The difficulty in defining music genres is exactly that.


1361     The Juno nominations came out the other day.  Diana Krall was nominated for four Juno awards.  Only one of those awards was in a Jazz category.  She is nominated for the Fans' Choice Award, for Record of the Year, for Artist of the Year, which are all the biggest, mainstream music nominations of the Juno Awards.

1362     So artists have moved beyond some of the format definitions that we tend to try and put them into from time to time.

1363     Diana Krall is an internationally recognized, highly successful Canadian artist that sells to jazz fans, but beyond that to the popular music fans as well.

1364     So it is harder and harder these days to try and define where artists fit with a label on them.

1365     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So what you are saying here is there are more and more crossovers between genres, and obviously the CRTC regulation is not updated.  It needs to be updated.


1366     MR. LARSEN:  I am excited about the upcoming radio review in May.  I think there will be some great discussion among the Broadcasting Act and the current radio rules and policies.  Perhaps that is one item that will be discussed for review at the radio policy coming up in May.

1367     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

1368     I need your help now to really understand your project.

1369     I note that you have indicated that you have enjoyed success in Parksville, British Columbia with the station you launched in March 2005 and that you feel that you can duplicate this format in Calgary.

1370     However, the Parksville market is decidedly less competitive in terms of attracting listeners to your local programming and competition for advertising dollars than a market such as Calgary.

1371     In Calgary you will be competing directly with three well established corporate broadcasters.

1372     It is not clear how a format developed to serve Parksville will be successful in the highly competitive Calgary market.

1373     Could you please elaborate on why you feel a service developed for Parksville will be successful in the highly competitive Calgary market?


1374     MR. LARSEN:  Surely.  I guess the point I was trying to make when I wrote the application in reflecting what we had done in Parksville was that that opportunity gave us a unique testing ground to really try and develop a format in a smaller market where there is less pressure and to give you time to be able to make mistakes and try things and develop a formula that works.

1375     That station has now been on the air for over a year and the feedback that we get from people coming from other markets like Calgary and Edmonton and Vancouver ‑‑ and a lot of people travel to Vancouver Island and hear that station.  The enthusiastic response we get from out of town people really made us think perhaps this would work in another market.

1376     This particular kind of format is done in the United States in a lot of big markets where they are blending classic adult standards from the fifties, sixties and seventies and mixing it with a lot of this newer music.  And a lot of the new music in the U.S. radio is Canadian artists like Michael Buble, Matt Dusk and Diana Krall that are contributing to the growth of that format south of the border.

1377     So we are quite confident that this format will work in a bigger market and a competitive market like Calgary.


1378     I myself have worked for a number of the larger companies that do own radio stations here in Calgary.  I have had that experience with those major corporations.

1379     In terms of our ability to compete against a well‑established large company with a lot of resources behind them, I think the bottom line comes down to putting on a great radio station.  If we put on an exceptional product, we will be able to sell that product.  It starts first and foremost with creating a great radio station.

1380     This type of format you cannot sell in the traditional manner.  It shouldn't be sold on BBM numbers and ratings points and CPPS and GRPs.  We will be selling the appeal of this format and the appeal of the target demographic and the people that are listening to this radio format.

1381     So it will be a different kind of sell, and we are confident that we can make it work in a market this size.

1382     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I will now move to local and spoken word programming.

1383     You have characterized your target audience as being underserved by existing adult format commercial stations in the market.  I have a two‑part question for you.


1384     First, based on your market research, what are the spoken word and information programming expectations and needs of your 35‑plus adult audience?

1385     Second, how do these needs and expectations differ from the majority of active adult listeners in the market that seem satisfied with the level and quality of spoken word programming provided by existing commercial adult formatted stations?

1386     MR. LARSEN:  I think they, first off, seem satisfied by what is existing in the market because it is the only choice they have.

1387     FM radio, since format and mosaic rules were done away with years ago, has become less and less about information and news and content that enhances and makes the format exciting to listen to, whether it is a newscast or an artist spotlight.  Those types of spoken word elements can really enhance and make a radio station something completely different from what FM radio has kind of become.

1388     FM radio in large part has become music‑driven, less information, less talk, lots of music.


1389     With satellite radio coming, content is going to be king.  If we can be local and relevant ‑‑ and spoken word is what makes us local and relevant beyond music ‑‑ then we can compete against those technologies.

1390     In our research we asked specifically about spoken word elements, ranging from lifestyle programs like health and wellness and gardening to financial programs, to how important is newscasts, how important is local news specific to Calgary, how important are traffic updates and weather reports.

1391     And time and time again, almost every single spoken word element scored high, in the 70 percent, that there is demand for spoken word on FM and it doesn't have to be all about music.

1392     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

1393     You have identified a number of spoken word and general programming expectations that you feel are necessary to incorporate into your programming in order to successfully program to your target 35‑44 adult audience.

1394     These elements include news, information, lifestyles and radio drama spoken word.

1395     I note on page 33 of your application that you plan to hire a staff of six, identified as three news journalists, two anchors and one reporter.

1396     You have also stated that the morning anchor will serve as the station's news director.


1397     How many other programming on‑air staff will you hire and what will be their responsibilities?

1398     MR. LARSEN:  We have a total of 12 programming staff identified in our budget:  a program director; morning host; mid‑day announcer; afternoon drive announcer; evening announcer; the morning news anchor, who is also the news director which you have already identified; an afternoon newscaster; a weekend newscaster‑reporter; and in addition, a production director and a creative director.

1399     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you think it will be sufficient to keep your operation on‑air on an all‑time basis?

1400     It is my understanding that except for one hour a day, which is for your drama, you won't be using voice tracking.  You will have on‑air programming all the time.

1401     Do you think that six ‑‑ not even six, because you have a producer.  Do you think with five on‑air personalities you will be capable to sustain the operation on a 24‑hour, seven‑day basis?

1402     MR. LARSEN:  In the numbers there are two part‑time positions as well, that I didn't give.  I thought you were asking for fulltime positions.


1403     Also, our Future Broadcasters Initiative we have outlined ‑‑ and perhaps we will talk about in the Q&A here today ‑‑ would enable us to staff the overnight programming using a qualified broadcast student from one of Calgary's two leading broadcasting schools.

1404     So it is our hope that the future broadcasters component of our proposal will play into being on the air live around the clock, 24/7.

1405     THE CHAIRPERSON:  On page 36 of your application you have stated that each week you will have 133 hours of local live programming.  You also have identified seven hours a week of radio drama.

1406     What type of programming do you plan for the other 28 hours and which part of the day will they be broadcast on?  Or are you planning to close down for four hours a day?

1407     MR. LARSEN:  Good question.

1408     To clarify, on the graph that is on page 36, when I wrote this application back in July this past summer, the evening hours of 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. were indicated as voice tracking, and 10:00 to 11:00 as voice tracking, with the syndicated hour running at 9 o'clock.


1409     In reviewing our budgets and by combining positions such as the program director, who is able to hold an on‑air shift as well, we were able to find budget to find an evening announcer which would be filling that 7:00 p.m. to 11:00 p.m. time slot.

1410     So those would become live hours, with the exception of the one hour at 9 o'clock of the spoken word radio drama.

1411     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Regarding radio drama, in your oral presentation you are saying that you are hoping to broadcast CBC original Sunday Showcase drama.

1412     Have you already initiated talks with the CBC?

1413     MR. LARSEN:  The talks were slow because of the labour strike earlier.  We don't have a definitive answer back from CBC.

1414     Our challenge with the spoken word dramas was we had a great desire to feature some Canadian radio drama, and there is just not very much of it out there.

1415     So we thought partnering or getting permission from CBC to rebroadcast the radio dramas that they produce and create would be a unique way for us to expose those to a broader audience.


1416     In answering your question, we do not have a definitive answer back from CBC at this point.

1417     THE CHAIRPERSON:  But they are listening to your request?

1418     I have heard over the years numerous applicants who have said that they were wishing to come to some agreement with the CBC and had never been successful.

1419     If you are granted a licence, you are still of the view that it is feasible?

1420     MR. LARSEN:  I have a glimmer of hope and I will tell you why.

1421     The person that we have been dealing with at CBC in Toronto basically said, "Generally our answer flat‑out is no.  We don't share our programming.  We don't sell our programming.  We just don't do it."  She said, "However, your application is different and unique and there is a lot of community service aspects."

1422     I think she was sort of taken by our application and some of the components that were in it.

1423     She is not the final decision‑maker at the CBC, but she has agreed to take it up the ladder to those who do make those decisions.  We are hopeful that CBC will be co‑operative and think that this is a great way to extend their brand.


1424     We are even offering to brand it as a CBC program and say "in co‑operation with CBC" and really make it a co‑operative relationship, which I don't know if other broadcasters when they have approached CBC have done it on that basis.

1425     We are hopeful that they will come back with a positive.

1426     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I haven't heard anybody lately, but over the years.  You have been around for 20; I've been around for 42.  So I have heard various broadcasters who have tried to access some CBC programming and finally came back with empty hands.

1427     MR. LARSEN:  Sure.  I am hopeful.

1428     I think there is perhaps a new wind blowing a little bit at the CBC.  They are in a partnership with the Sirius satellite radio.  I think they are thinking a little beyond how they have traditionally thought.

1429     If there is an opportunity to expand the CBC brand at no charge to them on another competing radio station or complementary station, I think they may be open to that opportunity if they seriously consider it.


1430     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are proposing to produce a daily one‑hour Magazine program to air Monday to Friday, as well as a weekly one‑hour Lifestyle Magazine program.

1431     Who will be responsible for putting together these programs?  Will all the material be scripted by station staff or do you plan to air syndicated material?

1432     MR. LARSEN:  No.  The programming would be locally produced and scripted by local staff.

1433     The Monday to Friday Magazine show in the noon hour would be written and produced and hosted by the news director, who would also be the morning anchor of the radio station.

1434     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So he will have a fulltime job.

1435     MR. LARSEN:  Yes, sir, it will be a fulltime job.

1436     There are many morning newscasters on FM radio here that work between 6:00 and 8:30 and have nothing to do for the rest of the day.  So we are encouraged by being able to give them some exciting things to do.


1437     And there is a lot of people we have spoken to who are interested in the positions that we would have available should we be fortunate enough to be licensed.  A lot of the news people are excited about the idea of having newscasts on a 9:00, 10:00, 11:00 or a lifestyle type or an informational type of talk show during the week that is complementary to our programming.

1438     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Based in part on your market research and your Parksville experience, you have identified a number of spoken word and general programming expectations that you feel are necessary to incorporate in your programming in order to successfully program to your target 35‑plus and 45‑plus adult audience.

1439     These include approximately 23 hours dedicated to news, information, lifestyle and radio drama spoken word programming.

1440     I note that your projected programming expenses range from $876,000 in Year 1 to $1,240,000 in Year 7.

1441     I also note that some applicants are committing to program fewer hours of news and spoken word program and have projected higher programming expenses.


1442     Why do you feel that your projected annual programming expenditures are sufficient to enable you to fulfil your programming commitments and to finance your spoken word and music programming?

1443     MR. LARSEN:  I am very confident in both the revenue and the expense projections that we have put forward.

1444     On the expense side specifically, and looking at programming specifically, in our case we are a unique applicant in the fact that we don't exist as a company today.  I mean, the corporate body exists but we don't have any property.

1445     So we are building a company from the ground up, and we are bringing young people into this company.  We are going to attract young people at lower than market average wages for key positions in our radio station.  We can entice them with opportunities maybe to earn profit‑sharing type of plans.

1446     So where a program director at one of the big stations in Calgary may be earning $150,000 a year, which I think is accurate in this market, our program director may earn $75,000 and hold double duty: be the program director and maybe an on‑air shift, but earn opportunity to get profit sharing in our company as we get through the first few years of our company and are able to start building some profit.


1447     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you expect to provide your listeners with 23 hours of weekly spoken word programming from week one of launching, or will you ramp up the spoken word over the first year or so of the operation?

1448     MR. LARSEN:  It would be our intention to provide the spoken word as outlined from day one.

1449     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

1450     How will your ability to provide your listener with the level of spoken word programming and general programming be affected if you are unable to initially generate the local revenues as estimated?

1451     I can assume here that your ability to meet your projected programming expenses are tied in some way to greater projected local revenues.

1452     MR. LARSEN:  Sure.  Again, we have a little flexibility in our expense side due to the structure of our company.


1453     I am going to return here as the President and General Manager of the radio station and the company.  So again based on my previous experience in the market, where a local GM may pull a salary of three to $350,000, I might salary myself at $60,000 if I can pay my mortgage and drive my car at that amount, or $75,000 or $80,000, but significantly less than the market demand would be for a position like that in this market.

1454     So we have some flexibility if we are not quite hitting our revenue targets out of the gate; that on the expense side there is room for us to manoeuvre without affecting the programming.

1455     We have put the heavy emphasis of our expense side into programming.  A lot of the dollars we are going to spend are in programming.

1456     THE CHAIRPERSON:  If licensed, I know that you will be a stand‑alone in the market.

1457     Are there certain programming synergies that you plan to utilize which will help you keep annual programming expenses in line with your estimates?

1458     Do you plan to share local programming with Parksville?

1459     I notice over the last couple of days that there is an application in the CRTC at the Quebec City hearing for the purchase by the Pattison Group of your Parksville station.

1460     If the Commission was not to approve the Pattison application, could there be some synergies between Parksville and Calgary?


1461     MR. LARSEN:  I really don't think so.  The markets are so different, not only in size but in make‑up and whatnot.

1462     Our intention in Alberta with our new company is to create an Alberta broadcaster focused on the market here in Calgary.

1463     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You also are an applicant for Lethbridge.

1464     MR. LARSEN:  Yes, sir.

1465     THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you were granted the Lethbridge licence, could you expect that there will be some synergies between the Lethbridge operation and the Calgary operation if you were licensed in both markets?

1466     MR. LARSEN:  Sure.  I always see the synergies more in the administrative side of our business.  So we could have some synergies perhaps with traffic scheduling or accounting procedures but not specifically in the programming side.

1467     In looking at Lethbridge, even in the research that came back to us specific to Lethbridge, Lethbridge is different than Calgary.  Calgary is a big city, head offices, oil and gas driving the economy, a very metropolitan place.  Lethbridge is more of a rural economy, still an exceptional great city, but just different.


1468     So we need to program specifically to the markets where we are licensed to operate.

1469     Synergies, though, in administration perhaps; maybe very small, but one or two ideas.

1470     THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will now move to Canadian Talent Development where I will have a few questions for you.

1471     My first question is:  We note in your application you have stated that you will not participate in the CAB plan yet you will make annual contributions to FACTOR that will exceed the minimum contribution as set out in the CAB plan for the Calgary market.

1472     In view of the fact that FACTOR contributions are part of the CAB plan, why do you not wish to participate?

1473     MR. LARSEN:  In complete honesty, I think I just got confused by that question.

1474     When I read "do you plan to participate in the plan", I read that as "do you plan to just put $8,000 a year into CTD?"

1475     So I answered no, because we are planning to put $75,000 into CTD.


1476     I guess the answer would be yes, we want to participate in the plan but over the expectations; like four times as much as what would be required ‑‑ or sorry, three times: eight times three is 24.

1477     THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.

1478     We note that one CTD initiative consists of two annual $3,000 bursaries awarded annually to support students enroling in a broadcasting education course.

1479     As set out in CRTC Public Notice 1995‑196, funding to support studies and broadcasting courses do not qualify as eligible CTD but journalism courses do.

1480     Is this contribution designed to support the study of radio broadcasting or journalism?

1481     MR. LARSEN:  It is an interesting point because I was just reading that same document the other day.  It became apparent to me that we would direct that money into a journalism broadcasting program at either of the two schools here.

1482     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

1483     With regard to the Morningside Bridge program, Music in Schools, the contribution to the Alberta Recording Industry Association, the Calgary Kiwanis Music Festival, Calgary Boys Choir, Calgary Girls Choir and the Radio Starmaker Fund contributions, how will the recipients receive their funds?


1484     Do you have any mechanism in place to deal with these types of contributions or will you simply cut a cheque to these organizations?

1485     MR. LARSEN:  Because we don't exist here today, we don't have a mechanism in place.

1486     However, from a budgeting perspective, our $75,000 would be budgeted across the year and we would accrue that money into a payable fund at the end the year.  Then we would issue the funds to these organizations.

1487     Prior to that, if we are licensed, we will definitely endeavour to set up a more formal relationship with these organizations so that we have some confidence that when we give the money it is going to where it is intended to go for Canadian Talent Development.

1488     THE CHAIRPERSON:  On page 46 of your supplementary brief you say that the proposed format has the potential to draw listening from alternative sources such as out‑of‑market radio stations that are available on cable, internet streaming, personal CDs and MPs, subscription music services, as well as listeners who have given up on radio.

1489     On this one, I have two questions.


1490     The first one is quite simple.  What do you mean by MPs?  Are you meaning Members of Parliament?

‑‑‑ Laughter

1491     MR. LARSEN:  That would ‑‑

1492     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Or are you talking about MP3s?

1493     MR. LARSEN:  Yes, sir.  That would be a typo.  That was meant to read MP3s.

1494     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

1495     Since the documentation available on alternative media and alternative music sources generally implies a younger audience and that your format will cater more to the 45‑plus, do you have studies to support your statement?

1496     And if yes, could you quickly review their content for us.

1497     MR. LARSEN:  I don't have studies but I do have personal experiences.

1498     For example, my father‑in‑law is 62 years old.  Not this past Christmas but the year before, for Christmas he bought himself a U.S. grey market satellite radio.


1499     I'm not trying to get him in trouble, but he did.  He is a rancher in southern Alberta and lives on the Montana border.  He has a post office box in Cut Bank.

1500     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Shouldn't you give him a chance to claim protection under the Canada Evidence Act before you ‑‑

1501     MR. LARSEN:  Yes.

1502     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  The RCMP are saddling their horses now, you know.

‑‑‑ Laughter

1503     MR. LARSEN:  My point being that he is in his early sixties and he went out and got this satellite radio.  On Christmas Day he opened it, and within 45 minutes had it unboxed, installed in his truck, his credit card to XM Radio in the United States and was listening to satellite radio in his truck ‑‑ without help from a younger person.

1504     I have aunts and uncles that are all in their late fifties, early sixties, again who are trying to find this music.  And they are finding it on MP3 players.

1505     The technology is becoming easier and more accessible to people over the age of 40 or 50.


1506     THE CHAIRPERSON:  In reply to Question 11 of the deficiencies, you provided the Commission with a table of your projected weekly hours of listening, as well as your market share for the total listeners 12‑plus and for the demographic 35‑64.

1507     I should have said that we are moving toward the economic and revenue projections of your application.

1508     MR. LARSEN:  Sure.

1509     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think that was clear.

1510     Could you discuss the methodology you used to derive these audiences?

1511     MR. LARSEN:  Sure.  We took the research study that we had, which was between the 35‑and‑64 year olds and those that indicated an indication that they would probably or likely listen to our radio station, and then applied those percentages against the population of Calgary adults 35‑to‑64, and then applied a 60 percent discount in that tuning because not everybody who said they intend to listen is going to listen.  Our previous experience showed that 60 percent was about the right number to apply to come up with the numbers.

1512     So that is generally how we came up with our market share using BBM data, comparing other stations with similar audience size to our projections, to come up with these projections in terms of the market share and hours tuned.


1513     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

1514     One of the findings of your demand study is that those persons within your target demographic cited Classic Hit station CKIS and Country station CKRY as the two most listened to stations among Calgary's current radio options.

1515     We note that the fall 2005 BBM audience survey results indicate that these two stations recorded audience share of three to four times greater than what you are projecting to achieve each year over the first half of the seven‑year licence term.

1516     Given this comparison, do you think it is possible that you might have under‑estimated the audience share your service might attract?

1517     MR. LARSEN:  Not intentionally.  The format that we are preparing to roll out is one that is going to take some time to get the word out.  It is going to involve a lot of marketing and a lot of time and effort to get people to be aware, first off, that there is a new radio station to listen to and convince them then to listen to our radio station and draw them away from whatever they happen to be listening to already.


1518     The stations that you mentioned, CKIS and CKRY, are both established stations in the market that have significant presence in this market.

1519     CKIS is the JACK format, which has been kind of a national phenomenon throughout Canada, so that particular station sort of took everybody by storm and with extensive marketing.

1520     I would rather project realistic numbers and then base our revenue off of that and hope to slowly grow a brand new company than over‑project and get myself in trouble and not be able to carry the station through the licence term.

1521     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

1522     We note that the total of your seven‑year revenue projections rank amongst the lower of those applicants at this public hearing.

1523     I hope you had a chance to look at the other applications.

1524     In addition, the share point value you have used in one of the two approaches to preparing advertising revenue calculations is comparable to the lowest calculated values for existing Calgary radio licensees.


1525     Given these observations and your earlier discussions concerning audience share projections, do you think it is possible that you may have under‑estimated the amount of advertising revenue your station might generate, especially during the latter portion of the seven‑year projected period?

1526     MR. LARSEN:  Again I am confident in the revenue numbers that we have put forward and the projections we have put forward, and I will tell you why they may appear to be on the low side.

1527     The mainstream advertising community, specifically the national agencies that place the national revenue in the markets, have not yet made the transition to realizing that people over 45 actually buy things and shop and are active consumers.

1528     Unless you are in that 25‑54 or more generally the 25‑44 and 18‑39 demographic, you lose out on a lot of the national buys in the early days.

1529     We think we are going to build some reasonable local revenue.  I think our projected our national to start at 10 percent and ease its way up to 15 over the licence term, where 30 would be more in line with a traditional radio station.

1530     So I think again we have budgeted accurately and ‑‑ I don't want to say conservatively ‑‑ I think responsively for a radio format that is brand new, that is not established, and for a new young company that is just getting off the ground.


1531     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You have stated in your application that your proposed service will have a limited, if not a marginal, impact on existing radio stations.  In fact, you are the lowest of the applicants at this hearing.

1532     How did you arrive at this conclusion?  Could you describe the methodology that you have used to arrive at that 5 percent?

1533     MR. LARSEN:  Yes.  Again, it was more of a laying out the market, taking all the radio stations and seeing where the tuning was and which stations do we have the potential to impact?

1534     Country music is a pretty distinct format by itself, with loyal fans.  I don't think we are going to impact those guys.

1535     JACK FM, is that audience going to listen to modern nostalgia?  Maybe, maybe not.

1536     I think if there is going to be any impact, it may be a very small minor impact, perhaps on CHQR, because we are going to offer a lot of news and information and they are the only radio station that is offering that at this point in time.  And perhaps CQIX where a Diana Krall fan may be going back and forth between our stations.


1537     Because there is no duplication with our format in this market, I really honestly do believe that it will be that minimal.

1538     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm sure that all those that are in the audience today appreciate your radio and expect that that is going to really happen ‑‑ if you are granted the licence obviously.

1539     If the Commission was to grant more than one licence after this hearing, which one of the other applicants could have a negative impact on your business plan?

1540     MR. LARSEN:  Sorry, could have a negative impact on our business plan?

1541     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

1542     MR. LARSEN:  I suspect, as you pointed out when we began this question and answer, that you are well aware that there are two or three of us that are very similar formatically in our presentation.

1543     I would assume that the Commission wouldn't license multiples of the same format.  If you did, that obviously would impact our business plan most dramatically.


1544     Any of the other applicants, Modern Rock, Hot AC, perhaps the Calgary Independent Radio, which is more of a Soft AC as opposed to a nostalgia type format.

1545     I think, again as CHUM pointed out, we are complementary because we are going for the 45‑and‑up crowd and there are several of us trying to win the licence for that format demographic.  Everybody else seems again focused on the younger end of the demographic.

1546     THE CHAIRPERSON:  How many stations do you think we shall be licensing?

1547     MR. LARSEN:  Again, I think the Commission is the best judge of that answer.

1548     I think my short answer would be I really believe Calgary is ready for more than one new radio station.

1549     I watched with interest the Edmonton decision a number of years ago where several stations were licensed; Halifax where several stations were licensed.  I think the Calgary economy, the Calgary radio market, clearly shows that there is room here for more than one new station.

1550     I don't know what the correct number is, but I am confident the Commission will make the right decision there.


1551     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I said I was to have a question on technical matters.  So here is my question.

1552     MR. LARSEN:  Okay.

1553     THE CHAIRPERSON:       Several applicants, including yourself, have proposed the use of Calgary allotment 106.1, channel 291B, as the second choice frequency.

1554     Industry Canada has advised the Commission that this allotment has a history of NAVCOM issues in Calgary.

1555     Given this history, please explain how this allotment is a viable alternative for your proposed service and how will the use of it affect your service to the Calgary market if you were to be granted 106.1.

1556     MR. LARSEN:  If it is appropriate, can I just read the answer that I responded to in the deficiency question?  I think it clearly says our position there.


"The currently allotted Calgary channel 291B, 106.1 FM, is a Class B frequency, meaning lower effective radiated power, resulting in less coverage.  The frequency may also have some additional Nav Canada restrictions which could further reduce power or result in the frequency not being usable in Calgary."

1557     When we got that information from our technical consultant, we were unaware and we had not taken the financial step to have him investigate other potential frequencies, though we were certainly open to being on a different frequency.

1558     There has been a number identified now in the application process.

1559     THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will be seeking the views of other applicants on the same question.  I am just telling the other applicants who are coming up with engineers to provide us with a reflection of their own.

1560     I will now move to my final questions, which have to do with the ownership of your organization.

1561     Am I right to say that the applicant company will be co‑owned, on a 50:50 basis, by Paul Larsen and Norscot Holdings?

1562     MR. LARSEN:  That is correct.


1563     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Am I right also to understand that this application is to the effect that all of the financial resources will be provided by Norscot, Mr. Larsen, yourself?  What will happen if your business plan is not met?

1564     MR. LARSEN:  Maybe I will have Mary or Brenda address that question.

1565     MS MILLS:  We are here because of Paul and our commitment is to Paul.  We have set aside in our bank letter $1.2 million to provide funding for this venture, and we are quite willing to stay on if there are further requirements.

1566     THE CHAIRPERSON:  On a 50:50 basis?

1567     MS MILLS:  Yes.

1568     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So whatever happens, even if you have to put more money into the operation, you will remain 50:50 partners?

1569     MS MILLS:  Yes.

1570     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And for how long?

1571     MS MILLS:  I will let Brenda address that.

1572     MS STONNELL:  Norscot has a history of investing in capable, committed entrepreneurs.  We have a history of staying with them, investing with them and having them part of our organization.

1573     So our commitment is indefinite.

1574     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.


1575     Have you entered into any shareholder agreement?

1576     MS STONNELL:  We have had some informal discussions, but we do not have a formal shareholder agreement.

1577     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you expect to have some written material very shortly?

1578     MS STONNELL:  We can and we can submit you an outline of the terms and conditions.

1579     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will you make an undertaking to file such document as soon as it is ready, even if it is not signed but will be signed if the licence is granted, so that we have it in the record?

1580     MS STONNELL:  Yes.  And we would make an undertaking to give you a general outline of the terms and conditions and the agreement.

1581     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And then if the Commission grants the licence, do you make the undertaking to file the signed document?

1582     MS STONNELL:  Absolutely.

1583     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

1584     Those are my questions for the time being.

1585     Mr. Williams.


1586     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I have just one quick one, given that one partner is financially more able than the other.

1587     Do you charge interest on the shareholder loans or any amounts that are above equality of contribution?

1588     MS STONNELL:  The pro forma that has been prepared provides for 7 percent interest on our funds, but that amount is only payable to us at such time as there is funds generated by the organization to pay that.

1589     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I hear some of the employees are going to be working at discounted wages to try and make this happen.

1590     What determines when funds are available?

1591     MS STONNELL:  When the operation pays rewards to the individuals that put the effort in, and we would receive our reward at the same time as the shareholders or the employees that were involved in the organization receive their reward.

1592     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So interest would be paid once it is profitable.

1593     MS STONNELL:  It is profitable, yes.

1594     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.


1595     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Langford.

1596     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

1597     I am interested in this cross‑generational partnership here.  I am not as bothered about paper as perhaps some of my colleagues, but I am glad you are providing it.  We always love paper here.

1598     MR. LARSEN:  Great.

1599     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It is interesting because on one side of the table are people, unfortunately like me, who remember Perry Como very well and on the other side probably couldn't identify Perry Como from a police line‑up at the best of the world.  And yet they are the one side, the young side, are going to be doing this and putting the energy and the sweat equity into it.

1600     What I am trying to establish is where did you get this idea for this format?  Is there another place doing this somewhere in the States or something that I wouldn't know about?

1601     Where did this come from?

1602     MR. LARSEN:  Can I speak to the format first?


1603     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You can speak to anything you like.

1604     MR. LARSEN:  I will speak to the format first and then perhaps a little bit about the cross‑generational relationship you mentioned.

1605     The format really was something that has been kind of formulating in the back of my head for a long time.  When you work for the bigger established radio companies, typically you are working with a lot of safe, established mainstream radio format: Hot AC, Top Forty, Country, Rock, et cetera.

1606     When I had the opportunity to leave a bigger company and rejoin a smaller company and be more entrepreneurial in my thinking, it really gave an opportunity to say:  Is there a chance that we can create something different than what is out there and superserve an audience that really is underserved, and create something compelling and engaging that that audience will relate to and at the same time introduce some younger people to a generation of music that they are familiar with from their parents playing it, perhaps, as they were growing up but really is new to them?


1607     The comment that Michael Buble made in the audio presentation, Michael Buble is talking about being a 7‑year‑old kid listening to Perry Como records in his mom and dad's place and not understanding why all the other seven or 8‑year‑olds didn't like the music.

1608     And now as a 20‑something ‑‑ I think he is 27 or 28 ‑‑ he has all these young people, 12 years old, 13 years old, 14, 15, 20 years old, coming to his concerts to hear these great old songs redone in a modern way.

1609     But there is also a real connection to the past as well, what started this music format.

1610     I just had this idea that it was a workable thing.  You start surfing the internet and there is some internet radio stations that are doing something similar.  There is a number of U.S. radio stations that are experimenting and doing something similar.

1611     The idea just came.  I had the opportunity to do it.  And the result, when we did it in a small, little place like Parksville, was so overwhelming and positive that the idea just planted that perhaps this should be taken to other markets.  It just sort of grew from there.


1612     Briefly as to the relationship here, I started with the McKinnon family and Norscot at 16 years of age in Fort St. John.  I was in high school at the time.  They gave me an opportunity to come on their radio and do Friday night and Saturday night radio shows while I finished high school.  It was great for my social life and it was a wonderful opportunity for a young guy.

1613     When I graduated high school I became the Program Director of the station and then came to work in Nanaimo with the company and then left for greener pastures, to Vancouver, and did that with Wic at CKNW for a long time, and then came back to run Nornet, a small broadcasting company that they own.

1614     Our history goes back to the day I started in radio 20 years ago, so there is a long‑standing relationship there.

1615     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.  That is a very complete answer and I am grateful.

1616     Those are my questions.

1617     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

1618     Legal counsel.

1619     MS BENNETT:  Just one small housekeeping matter.

1620     You have undertaken to file a copy of the general outline of the terms and conditions of the shareholder agreement when it is available.


1621     Would you be in a position to commit to a particular timeframe for that?

1622     MS MILLS:  Mid‑March.  We can do it fairly quickly.

1623     Or sooner, if you would like it.

1624     MS BENNETT:  That should be fine; thanks.

‑‑‑ Pause

1625     THE CHAIRPERSON:  In your own words, in no more than five minutes, could you give us the reason why the Commission should retain your application.

1626     We will go to your script.

1627     MR. LARSEN:  According to Calgary's 2004 municipal census, one in three Calgarians is 45 or older, and they total 304,000 people.  It is the fastest growing demographic.

1628     This audience deserves a new radio station custom tailored for them.  Businesses that market to this impressive demographic deserve a targeted radio station to reach this audience, and The Lounge will be both.


1629     This year the first wave of baby boomers turns 60 and the second wave turns 50.  They became of age between 1965 and 1975, redefining popular culture, marketing, music and attitudes.  This generation has made a habit out of reinventing themselves and they are doing it again in 2006.

1630     Today's mature adult is not the same as the one from a generation ago.  They are starting new careers.  They are travelling.  They are living life to the fullest.

1631     Sylvestre Stalone, Suzanne Summers, Bill Clinton, Donald Trump, those are just a few famous who turn 60 this year, and old is not the first word that comes to mind when you think of them.

1632     Research shows in the space of one generation, boomers shifted the stages of aging by 15 years, by taking longer to grow up, delaying marriage, parenting and retirement.  That simply means someone who is 60 today is relative to a 45‑year‑old a generation ago; 50 relative to a 35‑year‑old.

1633     Today's old is truly young and relevant, and they control more than half of North America's discretionary income.


1634     Many companies are already targeting this dynamic demographic.  Canadian retailer Reitmans is launching a new chain aimed directly at women 45 and older.  Ford markets a sedan for empty nesters, with a trunk that holds eight golf bags.  Sony is pouring millions into advertising to make its high end gadgets more appealing to people 50‑plus.

1635     Forty to 60‑year‑olds are now the single largest group of music purchasers, and we want to be the latest company serving this important demographic.

1636     Our application meets the criteria outlined in this licence call and the Broadcasting Act.  We presented substantial evidence to support demand for our station.  Approval of our application will bring a new independent and local owner into the system.  We propose significant live broadcasting.  Our programming will be of the highest quality and produced locally in Calgary.  We will reflect and promote Calgary's cultural diversity.

1637     We have presented a strong business plan based on research, market experience, financial control and a viable format.

1638     The Lounge will enhance rather than compete with the current landscape.

1639     We will bring an independent news and information voice to Calgary, and our Canadian Talent Development will benefit new Canadian artists, many who have never been heard on Calgary radio.


1640     Our unique and exclusive commitment to ensure airplay of newer Canadian songs and artists and to play 40 percent Canadian content means more Canadian music and diversity of Canadian artists on our radio station.

1641     Our CTD will also benefit young broadcasting talent through our Future Broadcasters Initiative.

1642     Our CTD funding is substantial and responsible: $525,000 over the first licence term.  And those funds will all be spent right here in Calgary.  We have the financial resources behind us to build facilities, launch and market The Lounge and see it through its early operating years.

1643     The Calgary economy is strong and the radio market is robust, with revenue growth and PBIT well ahead of national averages.  Calgary is ready for more radio and we are ready to provide it.

1644     Our application garnered broad support from artists, community groups, civic leaders and the general public.

1645     Newer Canadian artists like Andrea Mennard, Karin Plato, Carol Welsman and Suzy Vinnick wrote the Commission.


1646     Randy Bachman and Anne Murray both took time to write, expressing their enthusiastic support for our application.

1647     Management for Matt Dust, Diana Krall, Joni Mitchell and others took time to support The Lounge.

1648     We are most proud that many community groups and non‑profits supported our application based solely on our promise to include them in our programming, if licensed.

1649     Calgary Mayor Dave Bronconnier wrote:

"I enthusiastically endorse the application.  I am confident The Lounge will quickly earn a loyal audience in our city."

1650     Young Calgarian Sarah Curts wrote:

"As a 17 year old, I'm not too familiar with this type of music but I have been exposed to artists such as Michael Buble and Matt Dusk who I adore.  My fellow teenagers love these kinds of artists too, but we have no way of listening to them on the radio and The Lounge will bring this much needed music format to our city."


1651     A letter to the editor in the January 5th Calgary Herald sums up the need for The Lounge.

1652     S.A. Chappus of Airdrie wrote:

"No Calgary station plays Frank Sinatra, Barbara Streisand, Tony Bennett.  How is that possible?  I can't believe a city this size does not offer an adult Easy Listening FM station and an All Oldies FM station.  No wonder satellite radio has become so popular."

1653     The Lounge will bring Frank Sinatra, Barbra Streisand and Tony Bennett t Calgary's airwaves, along with many other artists, both new and old.

1654     Satellite radio, high speed wireless, internet radio, IPODs and more are all competing with traditional radio for listeners, and it will only intensify.

1655     It will be a new generation of young broadcasters who step forward and embrace and understand new technology and who will combine it with exciting and creative radio formats that will allow terrestrial Canadian radio to remain dominant and thrive in these exciting and rapidly changing times.


1656     The Lounge is a made‑in‑Canada radio format that is ready to be unveiled in Calgary.

1657     We are experienced career broadcasters with many years ahead of us to contribute to this business and ensure its viability into the future.

1658     We thank you greatly for your attention and for this opportunity to present our application for The Lounge 92.9 Calgary.

1659     Thank you.

1660     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

1661     Thank you, Mr. Larsen and to your team.

1662     We will take a small break for five minutes to allow the next applicant to come to the table.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1635 / Suspension à 1635

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1650 / Reprise à 1650

1663     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Please be seated.

1664     Order, please.

1665     Madame la secrétaire.  Madam Secretary.

1666     LA SECRETAIRE:  Merci, monsieur le Président.


1667     We will now proceed with Item 4 on the agenda, which is an application by Evanov Radio Group Inc., on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Calgary.

1668     The new station would operate on frequency 92.9 MHz (channel 225C1) with an average effective radiated power of 48,000 watts (maximum effective radiated power of 100,000 watts/antenna height of 160 metres).

1669     Appearing for the applicant is Mr. William Evanov, who will introduce his colleagues.

1670     You will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.

1671     Mr. Evanov.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

1672     MR. W. EVANOV:  Thank you.

1673     Monsieur le Président, Members of the Commission, Commission staff, my name is Bill Evanov.

1674     Before I begin, I will introduce our team.

1675     I am the President of the Evanov Radio Group.


1676     On my right is Carmela Laurignano, Group Radio Manager of all our radio operations, as well as a director and shareholder in this application.

1677     On my far right is Ky Joseph, head of our sales operation, as well as a director and shareholder in this application.

1678     On my left is Al Baldwin, Music Director for The Jewel in Ottawa.  Al has been in radio for 30 years and has held positions with Rogers Broadcasting.  Al is responsible for the choosing of the music we play on The Jewel in Ottawa, which is the same format we are proposing here in Calgary.

1679     Next to Al is Doug Falkenberg, previously in the management team with Telemedia, an experienced broadcaster from Alberta who has agreed to manage The Jewel in Calgary if we are licensed.

1680     We are delighted Doug is with us, and we will ask him to assist in answering any questions about the administration of the proposed station or the existing radio market in Calgary.

1681     In the back row, to your right, is Gary Gamble, Program Director of FOXY‑FM in Newmarket, Ontario, who will be assisting the applicant company in setting up its news and information programming and will be able to assist us today with questions related to our spoken word programming.


1682     To Gary's right is Gene Geroly of Show Stopping Entertainment ‑‑ a Canadian‑owned independent record label which produces some of Canada's best selling compilation CDs.  Gene has created over a dozen gold, platinum and multi‑platinum records, such as Frosh and Reggae hits, as well as marketing numerous successful artists' albums from Bryan Adams to the Venga Boys.

1683     Gene has produced our "Hit Mix" and "Streetmix" compilations which have been hugely successful for CIDC‑FM.  A copy of the "Hit Mix" CD and Gene's "A Canadian Christmas" compilation are in your package this afternoon.

1684     His company has agreed to partner with us in the CD element of our CTD promise and he will speak to that important initiative today.

1685     Next to Gene is Paul Evanov, a director of this application.  He will be discussing financial issues in today's appearance.

1686     Beside Paul is Bob Linney of CueTwo Communications, who is assisting us with our research.

1687     Also to the far left side of the table is our legal counsel, Stuart Robertson.


1688     I would like to take a moment to update the Commission that yesterday morning we began testing The Jewel signal in Ottawa.  There you will be able to hear the preliminary stages of the format we are placing before you here in Calgary.

1689     In Halifax our station is fully built, fully ready.  Our staff is in place.  Our interested advertisers are calling, and we are simply waiting for CHUM Radio to complete its brand new tower so that we can get our transmitter up and operating.

1690     Now we will begin our presentation.

1691     We are an independent radio broadcaster with stations in Newmarket, Orangeville, Brampton and Ottawa and with an immediate plan to launch in Halifax as quickly as possible.

1692     Our company's basic philosophy is to make certain that conventional radio is relevant and survives as a vital medium in Canada.

1693     The radio business is becoming tougher.  While the opportunity to serve a community like Calgary is exciting, this proceeding is happening at a time when the radio industry is under review, and past models for the industry cannot be expected to continue in their present form.


1694     In order to make it in the new environment, a radio station must be well financed, have experience in the format it is offering and be prepared to weather extreme competition from all media and new types of radio.

1695     In addition, people are turning off their radios.  They are not leaving radio entirely, but they are not listening to it for as long as they used to.  What is especially ironic is that these people are at the older end of the spectrum ‑‑ people who have been brought up with radio and it was part of their life.

1696     What is the broadcasting system doing to turn them off?

1697     The Commission is about to review its commercial radio policies, and we have to expect that this tuning‑out phenomenon will be reviewed extensively.  We see it as an exciting challenge to bring them back to radio.

1698     MS LAURIGNANO:  We have grown our company by taking on stations that had been beaten up in the marketplace.  We learned first‑hand the need to figure out a way to find new audiences by designing interesting and appealing formats and then working the business plan.


1699     We saved an AM in Brampton and then FMs in Orangeville and Newmarket.  It is an interesting way to get into the business ‑‑ by seeing what does not work and by inventing solutions that do.

1700     We make our living solely in radio and we decided years ago to make a deliberate and bold step to bring back to radio two age groups who are leaving radio in droves ‑‑ the young listeners and the 45‑plus.

1701     For the most part, the big broadcasters are not serving these groups.  Somebody must.

1702     We developed the YCR format, which is an acronym for Youth Contemporary Radio.  Our company is thrilled that the Commission has licensed this format in Halifax, and we hope to bring it to western canada and elsewhere when the opportunities for such a format present themselves.

1703     We have also pioneered and developed what we call "Today's New Easy Listening Format".  This format has been a working model in Newmarket since 2002.  We are confident The Jewel in Ottawa will reinforce the viability of this format and its ability to increase hours tuned in the 45‑plus demo.


1704     MR. FALKENBERG:  Like Ottawa, Calgary is ripe for today's New Easy Listening format that will be on The Jewel.  Virtually no such music exists in the current Calgary radio market.  The Jewel is designed for the baby boomers.

1705     In the next few years there will be more people over 65 than there are under 15.  Baby boomers are about to redefine the concept of "older generation".  It will be its own demographic and not part of anything else.  They have been freed from family, career and financial constraints and want to get back out there.  They are old enough to know better and young enough to get out and do it.

1706     Our research shows that over half of the population in the Calgary market is in the 35‑plus age group.  This is consistent with the North American trend.  However, BBM also shows that the hours tuned in the 55‑plus group indexes at only 87 percent relative to 2001 levels.  This means that a generation that grew up with radio and knows radio is tuning out more than ever.

1707     It is not a group that should be lost to radio, and we as broadcasters should be able to bring them back.

1708     It is not an easy opportunity to seize.  In order to get them back into radio, we have to know them and then design precisely what they expect to get from radio at this stage in their lives.


1709     They need their music, their information and the chance to hear some new and different music.

1710     MR. BALDWIN:  The format we pioneered blends a large variety of soft melodic musical genres from a number of eras: Pop‑Classics, Adult Standards and Instrumental, plus some Light Classical, Crossover Jazz and Crossover Country and Folk/Root.  We call this format "Today's New Easy Listening" format.

1711     It is music that endures, that provokes passion.  It is exciting.  Our blending of several musical genres will produce a melodic, easy listening sound that will appeal to the 45‑64 age demo.  The lyrics will be meaningful.  They will touch something within that person relating to their life experience.

1712     The Jewel will not be locked into any single time period but rather will present the very best musical recordings from the past four or five decades, but always with an emphasis on the new soft melodic music of today.  We are not a nostalgia nor oldies format.  We are a radio station of today playing the best music ever recorded.


1713     Over 40 percent of our music will be new or relatively new, meaning released in 2000 or later; 27 percent will be from the 1980s and 1990s; and 33 percent will be pre‑1980s.  That includes what we call our classic crooners.

1714     Of the Canadian music played, we are proud to say that 70 percent of the selections that will be on The Jewel will be new or relatively new.

1715     This format will have longevity because we play not only great songs but we don't target a single narrow demographic.  We broaden our audience base by playing a wide variety of musical genres from many eras.  Our research presented with our application shows a market demand for this blend of music.

1716     We know of its appeal because we have seen it develop in Newmarket, and now you can hear it for yourself in Ottawa on 98.5.

1717     The Jewel's music makes our listeners say "I haven't heard this song in so long" or "I've never heard that song before but I love it" or "I know the tune but I have never heard that version before".

1718     Of all our music to be played, 33 percent will be instrumental.  It will be blended throughout the broadcast day and include specialty programs in the evenings.  The majority of instrumental music will be derived from Pop music, as well as some Light Classical, Folk and Uptown Country.


1719     It could be performed by a large lushly scored orchestra, a single musician or a combo.  The selections come from a number of sources, including instrumental renditions of recently composed music from the past decade, familiar popular music and music composed hundreds of years ago by the great European masters.

1720     We have provided to you a list of some of the great instrumental artists that will be featured in our format as part of the information package for your consideration.  Those artists are also being displayed as part of our PowerPoint presentation.

1721     A few pages into the information we have given you, you will see the Canadian instrumental artists which shows artists from coast to coast, both legendary artists, well established artists and artists that are coming into their own, like Richard Abel and Robert Michaels, who recently paid a visit to our station in Newmarket.

1722     Further on you will see our international instrumental artists.  You will see the legends there, along with the newer generation:  folks like Kenny G and David Sanborn and a gentleman who is really becoming known in North America, Andre Rieu along with his Johann Straus Orchestra.


1723     Our instrumentals are uplifting.  They are fresh and definitely foreground.  These instrumental selections will represent a wide variety of musical genres that will engage the listener, invoke passion and emotion.  A sample of this broad variety of instrumental music could include a Strauss waltz performed by Andre Rieu, or "Penny Lane" performed by the Boston Pops.  It could be a rendition of "Call Me Irresponsible" by Ontario pianist John Arpin or a version of Offenbach's "Bacarolle" by Quebec's Richard Abel.

1724     Or it could be by one of Alberta's own, like Wayne Chaulk, Oscar Lopez, or P.J. Perry.

1725     During the 1980s the availability of instrumental music decreased due to an increase in production costs and the fact that radio stations started to target younger audiences.  Instrumental music virtually disappeared from radio.

1726     Since that time, the majority of Canadian instrumental artists have had to work within a cottage industry.  They produce, they market and they sell their recordings themselves via the internet, flea markets, small concerts and through word of mouth.


1727     As a result, instrumental music is very much alive in spite of the broadcasting system.  Its life, however, has been marginalized unfairly.  So we see one of our great contributions to music in Canada is that the broadcasting system should promote and be a platform for Canadian instrumental music.

1728     Our research confirms the demand for instrumental music as part of a blended mix.  Over 70 percent of the 55‑to‑64 year olds in Calgary that we asked expressed interest in The Jewel service.  More importantly 55 percent of persons 55‑to‑64 said they listened to instrumental music.  That is double the percentage giving the same answer for all age groups.

1729     MS LAURIGNANO:  Our commitment to Canada's instrumental artists is very profound.  Our plans encompass the following:

1730     ‑ establish a station format that broadcasts at least 35 percent instrumental music;

1731     ‑ apply for licences in major markets in Canada where the artists will get substantial exposure;

1732     ‑ establish a catalogue (based on the model of the ethnic broadcasters) for instrumental composers and performers where they can market themselves to broadcasters, video and film producers, advertising agencies and concert promoters;


1733     ‑ produce and distribute compilation CDs with their work recorded on them, by which their work will again be promoted throughout Canada and elsewhere;

1734     ‑ encourage Canadian Music Week, FACTOR and others to start to focus on the instrumental music sector in Canada;

1735     ‑ promote the performance of instrumental music concerts in Canadian cities.

1736     This application advances all of these initiatives.

1737     The importance of these plans is solidified if Calgary is licensed.  The more places that instrumental artists can call home in the broadcasting industry, the more it will give to the artists the incentive to stay with their art and make music that enriches the Canadian fabric.

1738     MS JOSEPH:  Calgary has seen increases in radio revenues of huge proportion, increases that even analysts had previously underestimated.  The strength of radio sales is of course based on the strength of the local market, and we have found through our own street‑level research that retailers in Calgary have already responded to the economic trend of targeting the aging baby boomer segments of the population.


1739     In less than 24 months every baby boomer will be over 50 years old ‑‑ representing the largest and most powerful demographic for advertisers.

1740     We spoke to over 100 businesses in Calgary and here is what they typically said:

1741     Condo Condo Development Group says they have invested in print and billboard advertising to reach their demographic of older and more affluent buyers.  In fact, interestingly enough, they are in the midst of honing a jingle that is very "Sinatra‑esque" ‑‑ "a perfect fit for The Jewel", their Vice‑President told me.

1742     Fine dining restaurant owner Pina Nicastro said she has been visited by many radio sales people over the years and has never signed on.  The Jewel format sounded very interesting to her and certainly appeals to the core age group of her business.  She is interested in advertising on The Jewel.

1743     Diane Hartland of Esthetics by Diane quotes:


"Our customers are women over 35 who have disposable income ‑‑ either their own or their husband's ‑‑ and make regular appointments to pamper themselves... Until now no one in town has played the music my clients enjoy listening to.  So I will definitely tune The Jewel into my shop.  I have never used radio to market my business, but your station sounds like a good fit."

1744     These sentiments were mirrored by so many other businesses, which we have included in our application.

1745     It's a simple equation:  Additional hours tuned by the 45‑to‑64 demographic equals new streams of revenue for radio.

1746     As well, The Jewel will have minimal impact on existing stations while impacting favourably on the broadcast system.

1747     MR. P. EVANOV:  We are a company that works out its own solutions to some of the biggest problems facing the broadcasting system.  We do it our way and it is working.


1748     You have given to us the opportunity to use our skills and dedication to growing new enterprises from the ground up.  This we do but we work within the models we have created and using the approaches that have worked so well for us.  We have survived in the toughest competition in Canada's largest market and we welcome competition from any other broadcaster in the country.

1749     The Jewel, with its music blend, spoken word, including strong local, regional, national and international news, is designed for the 45‑to‑64 age group that is tuning out in Calgary.

1750     We believe The Jewel will meet all the Commission's licensing criteria and will be a needed and welcome addition to the Calgary market.  For us it represents an exciting challenge and a wonderful opportunity.

1751     We look forward to answering any of your questions about our application today.

1752     THE CHAIRPERSON:  This completes your presentation.

1753     I have a point of clarification.  I am not related to John Arpin in any way, shape or form, but I have a copy of his Scott Joplin rendition that I bought myself and have not given away.

1754     I have a question for Mr. Baldwin.

1755     MR. BALDWIN:  Yes, sir.


1756     THE CHAIRPERSON:  On page 7, I notice that you said that 33 percent of all the music you will be playing will be instrumental.

1757     MR. BALDWIN:  Actually, 35 percent, sir.

1758     THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is 35 percent.

1759     MR. BALDWIN:  Yes.

1760     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You read 33 percent.

1761     MR. BALDWIN:  Yes, sir, it is in fact 35 percent.

1762     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I wanted to check that just in case it makes a difference.

1763     I hope that we can put on the internet that we have received a CD from this applicant.  Obviously we have the Commissioner of Ethics that is checking whatever we receive, but I suspect this one is...

1764     Anyhow, we all got one.

‑‑‑ Laughter

1765     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am asking Elizabeth Duncan to question you.

1766     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Mr. Evanov, I will direct my questions to you first and you can redirect them as you see appropriate.


1767     In your remarks on page 9 you refer to statistics on the 55‑to‑64 year old group, with 70 percent expressing an interest in instrumentals.

1768     I am wondering, do you have that percentage for 45‑to‑55?  I was interested that you picked 55‑to‑64.

1769     MR. W. EVANOV:  Yes.  I am going to ask our research person, Bob Linney, to respond.

1770     MR. LINNEY:  On page 9 of our research report is a breakdown by four demographic groups for each one of the musical types.

1771     For instrumental the figure that was quoted was 55 percent for 55‑to‑64.

1772     Our next demographic breakdown is 45‑to‑54, where the interest dropped to 31 percent.

1773     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  But you are still satisfied with that response?

1774     MR. LINNEY:  Yes.  Again, the target demos of the radio station are 45‑plus.  The majority interested in instrumental specifically are over 55, but that is still a key part of the demographic.

1775     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  So it was 31 percent for 45‑to‑54?

1776     MR. LINNEY:  Forty‑five to 54.

1777     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Thank you.


1778     MR. LINNEY:  The complete report is on page 9 of the research report.

1779     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Thank you.

1780     MR. W. EVANOV:  Although, Bob, when the instrumental was presented as part of the mix, I think the numbers were ‑‑

1781     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  It worked in well with the mixture.  That is your method?  That is what you are saying, in the mix?

1782     MR. W. EVANOV:  Yes.

1783     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Yes, I can see that.

1784     I am not really in a position to judge whether 31 percent is high or low.  Maybe 70 is exceptionally high and 31 percent is satisfactory.

1785     MR. W. EVANOV:  Well, when you consider this music has been absent for over 20, 25 years on radio in Canada, except in a few small instances like the CBC or elsewhere, the awareness won't necessarily be there immediate.

1786     But with the mix and what we believe as part of the mix, it will come back and the popularity will grow.  We have already seen that with our operation in Newmarket.

1787     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  I take your point.


1788     I notice on page 11 of your presentation, Ms Joseph, you mention about the women over 35.  And I noticed when I was scanning through all the letters of support you had ‑‑ and you had many ‑‑ that there were quite a number that referred to looking forward to having a service that catered to 35‑plus group.

1789     I wondered, since your application is focused on 45‑plus, is that a concern or there a spillover one side or the other?

1790     MS JOSEPH:  Actually, when we came to this market to do surveillance, specifically with the retailers in the community, we used 35‑plus as a demographic.  But when we explained to them the format of The Jewel, we gave them very specific details on, for example, what we were doing in Ottawa and more specifically what would cater to this market.

1791     We did tell them that our core demographic would be 45‑to‑64, and that is exactly the consumer that they are looking to target.

1792     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Thank you.

1793     I am glad that you clarified in your opening remarks that we are going to be happy in Halifax to have your new service shortly.  That's good.


1794     MS LAURIGNANO:  We are both new in the market in terms of that.  You are the new Commissioner; we are the new radio station.  That's going to be great.

1795     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Yes.

1796     I am going to start, first of all, with format questions.

1797     In view of the number of music format choices currently available in Calgary, why do you consider your target audience of 45‑plus to be underserved, given that the fall 2005 BBM numbers indicate that tuning amongst the 45‑to‑60 age group is healthy across a number of different radio formats, including Mainstream, AC, Oldies, News‑Talk, Classic Rock, Country and Classic Hits?

1798     MR. W. EVANOV:  When the call came out for Calgary we looked at the market and we looked at the services in the market.  In examining the services, we realized that there was a hole in the 45‑to‑64 demo.  Then we commissioned our research, which basically told us that although in some cases the local citizens were listening to certain radio stations, they were not that satisfied with them.

1799     I think I would like Bob Linney to walk you through the research on that specifically.


1800     MR. LINNEY:  We didn't do a format find as you might do for a typical call such as this one. Instead, we had a format and we were trying to determine whether or not there was a role or a place for it, a viable business plan in the market.

1801     The methodology was to determine two things.

1802     First of all, it was to determine whether there was a segment of the Calgary market not satisfied with the current choices.  And there are a variety of factors combined into that including, as you point out, the hours tuned per capita.

1803     Second of all was to determine whether there was consumer interest or acceptance in the format based on what we now use in both Newmarket and in Ottawa.

1804     The data made it clear to us that two demographic ends of the market were not being served by the stations in the market now: the two ends being, in BBM terms, 45‑plus and 18‑to‑34.

1805     Based on hours tuned per capita, especially the radio listeners in the relatively narrow 35‑to‑44 category are the ones satisfied because it is the area ‑‑ 35‑to‑49 actually in BBM terms ‑‑ where hours tuned have actually increased from fall 2001 to fall 2005.


1806     So our methodology was to test the existing format using the same music catalogue the Commission has licensed for Ottawa.  And you have heard descriptions about the catalogue in the presentation.

1807     Our methodology to determine the place and the acceptance for this type of format was to actually play song segments.  Rather than just use the methodology of random telephone calls and saying we are going to play Rod Stewart, we are going to play Tom Jones, we actually played segments in the mix that Mr. Evanov described before.

1808     The mix is very much the key to consumer interest and acceptance of the format.

1809     Playing segments in research terms can give you a more accurate picture for listening intentions, which has a great to do with whether or not there is a place for the station in the market.

1810     If I say to you that Rod Stewart is in The Jewel catalogue, you probably think of "Maggie May" or "Do You Think I'm Sexy?" where for The Jewel, for example, it means a selection from his Show Tunes CD.


1811     So by actually playing segments of the song in our research, we eliminated any confusion about the artist or the music.  The same questions that were asked earlier about Diana Krall.

1812     In our case it is essential because the proposed catalogue is not usually played in this market.  For some respondents our research call may actually have been the first time they heard a song by Nat King Cole, but for those of us who unfortunately are over the age of 50‑something, it was probably a trigger song.  And it had been the first time in years that I had heard "Mona Lisa".

1813     So the field research basically identify the two market niches.  The format fits at the 45‑plus and that is how it got incorporated into the application you are considering today.

1814     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Thank you.

1815     MR. LINNEY:  The only other point I would like to make about the research is the sample size for Calgary was 800 completed calls, which is one of the largest sample sizes of any of the research projects from any of the applications.

1816     MS LAURIGNANO:  I may add that there is no question and no dispute that radio is a recognized and a known medium for this age demographic.  There is no question about that.


1817     But there is concern ‑‑ and it is borne by the trends over the last few years, by the indication that the consumers have given us, as well as our experience ‑‑ that tuning is not as high as it could be or it has declined in a lot of places.

1818     The concern is that with this huge and large segment of the population that is moving forward and going to really dominate that demographic, it is in our interest and the broadcasting system's interest to make sure that they are staying tuned longer and that we are delivering to them a service that they know and we give them reason to turn on the radio.

1819     This format happens to fit that bill.

1820     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Thank you.

1821     CHFM‑FM in Calgary programs Adult Contemporary, and that format may encompass some of the music that you propose to broadcast.

1822     How would you describe your format as differing from theirs?

1823     MS LAURIGNANO:  We would describe it in general terms as very different.  There is a type of music and the formatting is extremely different one from the other.

1824     For one thing, they don't play 35 percent instruments and music that we are proposing.


1825     We did take that into account and we actually did do some analysis in terms of duplication.

1826     I am going to ask Al Baldwin to give you the findings of what we found.

1827     MR. BALDWIN:  We did a media based electronic survey basically from the beginning of the year of 2006 through to the middle of February ‑‑ so roughly a six‑week period ‑‑ where we would compare actual titles that are being played on CHFM as opposed to titles that are in the FOXY library.

1828     Of the over 1,000 distinctive titles that FOXY would play in a given week, we found that averaging it out, there were only 23 songs in any week that were actually duplicated within the format.  And that is not on a day‑to‑day basis.  That is over the whole week.

1829     Because of the depth and breadth of the FOXY format, with the exception of one or two categories of our music, you won't hear songs repeated through an entire week of broadcast.

1830     So there was only an average, as I said, of 23 titles through a week through that six‑week period.


1831     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  In the program schedule that you provided as part of your application you indicated that the evening program periods would be dedicated to crooners and instrumental music.

1832     Outside of these genre‑specified music program blocks, how would your music mix be scheduled throughout the remainder of the day?

1833     MR. W. EVANOV:  Are you referring specifically to the crooners or the instrumental or just overall?

1834     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Overall.

1835     MR. W. EVANOV:  Okay.

1836     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  The music outside of the evening block.

1837     MR. W. EVANOV:  The music throughout the day will be a mix.  We will blend various genres of music we use from the various eras.

1838     I will ask our music director to walk you through that.

1839     MR. BALDWIN:  As we mentioned, in any given day 35 percent of our music will be instrumental, and that takes into account the evening blocks that we are showcasing the instrumentals in.  We are also blending the instrumentals through our day part as well.


1840     Then through the rest of the percentages on a daily basis, 25 percent will be adult standards.  That is a combination of what we call our classic standards, the early recordings of Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Ella Fitzgerald, those kinds of artists, and contemporary.  And that is taking into account the Rod Stewarts, the Carly Simons, the Bette Midlers, that sort of thing.

1841     Twenty percent would be under the category of Soft AC; 18 percent of it would fall under the Pop music genre; and the remainder 2 percent would make up World music, crossover music from various formats, that sort of thing.

1842     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  So the instrumental, I see by the schedule, is going to play from 9:00 or 9:15 until midnight every day, and that is contributing to the 35 percent.  So what percentage of the rest of the time would instrumental be a factor, just roughly?

1843     MR. BALDWIN:  Sure.  I can give you some numbers.

1844     We play roughly 216 selections on a daily basis, and of that 78 titles would be instrumental.

1845     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Is that including the evening period?


1846     MR. BALDWIN:  That is correct.  So you could pretty much cut that in half in terms of the numbers of instrumental tracks that you would hear through the rest of the day from 6:00 a.m. through to 9:00 p.m.

1847     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Your proposed music format will draw from a broad range of musical styles, both contemporary and music from past eras.  You contend that your style of music mix and overall programming content, as we said, will have a broad appeal to the 45‑plus demographic, a group that we have already described as well‑served in Calgary.

1848     There are three other applicants, as you know, appealing to this same age group.

1849     I am just wondering if you would like to comment on what would make your format proposal distinct from theirs.

1850     MR. W. EVANOV:  Thank you.  I will do that.

1851     To begin with, we are the only applicant of the three or four that is promising a substantial amount of instrumental music.

1852     Also, our commitment to Cancon is 40 percent where I think two of the applicants are at 35 percent each.  I believe that is Pattison and the Calgary Independent Group.


1853     I believe of the group we have made the strongest commitment toward CTD.

1854     I don't know if I want to walk through each group specifically.

1855     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  I think I was just thinking at this point in time of the programming format.

1856     MR. W. EVANOV:  The programming; okay.

1857     In terms of the programming, our music is much more encompassing.  We cover a great span of music from different eras.  I think 40 percent is new and current; 27 percent would be from the 1980s and 1990s; and 33 percent would be pre‑1980s, but that would include our crooners as well.

1858     I believe the Alberta Independent Group is predominantly 1980s and 1990s, a Soft Rock format, if that is a comparison.

1859     The Pattison Group I believe is predominantly 1960s and 1970s.

1860     We think we are far more encompassing and far more inclusive.

1861     Al, is there is anything you can add to that?

1862     MR. BALDWIN:  No.  I think that covers things fairly well.


1863     One of the great things about the fact that we will be playing music primarily from the end of the 1950s or what is generally regarded as the beginning of the popular music era ‑‑ through the 1960s, through the 1970s and right into the 21st century ‑‑ is that it suddenly becomes a generational thing.

1864     You have people who when they first started listening to the radio never knew what was going to be coming next.

1865     Taking the mid‑1960s as an example, you would be hearing Dean Martin, followed by The Beatles, followed by Louis Armstrong, followed by Petula Clark.  As radio has come along through the years and formats have gotten fragmented, I think one of the things missing is the breadth and the depth and the richness of radio formats.

1866     We will be presenting that.  Because our core demo was raised on that type of format, they are I find, and we have found, more open to experiencing new music, new artists in conjunction with the favourites of theirs that we are playing for them.

1867     It also becomes a multi‑generational thing.


1868     If you were listening to the radio back in the 1970s when Abba first came on the radio, since then every generation has discovered Abba.  And certainly with the success of the musical Mamma Mia worldwide, suddenly the music of Abba belongs to so many different generations.  And it becomes a shared experience between generations.

1869     Who'd have thunk it, that parents and their children might actually agree on the same type of music?

1870     That is one of the things that is particularly appealing about this format, is its breadth, its depth and the fact that it has the opportunity to touch so many different generations.

1871     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Based on your earlier remarks, you started out wanting to see if The Jewel format would appeal to the Calgary audience.

1872     I am wondering, in doing your research did you consider any of the other alternatives that other people have applied for?  Or are you just focused on The Jewel?

1873     MR. W. EVANOV:  We focused on the Easy Listening format because, number one, that is where we saw the hole.


1874     As a broadcaster there are two formats we do extremely well.  One is Youth Contemporary Radio and the other is the Easy Listening format.

1875     We believe do what you do well.  We are not going to come to you and say we want to do a sports station or a country music station, because we really don't do that well and we don't have the experience.

1876     We have the experience here, solid experience, solid experience in major markets as well.  And we have pioneered a format that is exceptional.  We could say it is the best music ever recorded, regardless of era, and it is done extremely well in terms of the signals that we have.

1877     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Thank you.

1878     MS LAURIGNANO:  I should add that when we approach a market, we look at what's there, what the indicators are.  So there are some very, very good pointers that we know will lead you to some pretty broad conclusions.


1879     When we looked at it, there was the hole at the bottom end, which is the younger demographic as well as the older one.  We didn't just take that at face value.  We did in fact test the formats.  We did go into the research and it bore out our suspicions, confirmed it even better than what we had expected.

1880     Had that been a failure, then we would have looked at some other alternatives: whether to go with the younger demo or just to not apply.

1881     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Thank you.

1882     In your supplementary brief, you have indicated that the station is going to follow the format of your Newmarket FOXY 88.5 station and your Ottawa station that is about to launch.

1883     Based on your research into audience preferences in Calgary, can you tell us what the programming differences will be, if any, between the Calgary programming and what is heard in Newmarket and what will be heard in Ottawa?

1884     MR. W. EVANOV:  Yes.  I will start and I will ask Al and Doug to both contribute.

1885     To begin with, we are looking at establishing a Calgary radio station, and although the philosophy will be similar and much of the music library will be similar, it will be augmented to represent Calgary in terms of local artists, in terms of the tastes of Albertans and the people in Calgary.


1886     And it is the same.  The program in Ottawa will not be identical to the program in Newmarket.  There will be a great similarity in terms of artists and in terms of blend, but there will be many, many differences too that are dictated by the local area itself.

1887     MR. BALDWIN:  I can probably add that, as Bill mentioned, we start from the same basis but in fact of the two markets that are already established we have separate music directors.

1888     So while we start with basically the same template, as it were, it is up to the music directors in that individual market to program the station for that market and to reflect differences within those markets.

1889     For instance, there are some artists that are better known in the Newmarket area.  There are others that are better known in the Ottawa area, and we may give them a little bit more focus to start with.

1890     At the same time, we also have a give and take and are constantly in touch with one another, suggesting, you know what, you should really give these guys a try.

1891     For instance, we not only listen to the music that comes through the door in terms of what is presented to us by record representatives or music that gets mailed to us, we are proactive in seeking out artists that might fit our format.


1892     A case in point is a female trio from Toronto called Swing Rosie.  We found out about them.  I actually contacted them and, to my delight, one of the members is actually an Ottawa native.

1893     So they are actually going to be sending us a copy of their music.  It is reminiscent of Patty, Maxene and LaVerne, the Andrews Sisters.  They have beautiful three‑part harmony and orchestration, and I am looking forward to hearing that CD sitting on my desk once I get back to Ottawa.

1894     We will give a listen to it.  If it fits our format, we will definitely consider playing it.  But we will also let the people in Toronto, Newmarket, know:  Hey, you should really give these guys a listen and consider adding them to your playlist.

1895     MS LAURIGNANO:  And there are real programming differences between Ottawa and Calgary in the program schedule.  For example, in Ottawa we have a dedicated two‑hour program a week that is strictly for folk and roots program.

1896     The reason for that, as most of you are familiar, Ottawa and the Ottawa Valley is a hotbed and a great place, bustling with musicians and composers.  There is a whole industry there for that.


1897     The other difference, for example, that we have is that we have an international music program in the Ottawa market with that station, whereas here it's not there.  And that is simply a reflection of the make‑up of the city, the flavour and the kind of demand that was expressed, as well as what we anticipate.

1898     So while the formats are similar in terms of what the elements are, the blend is going to be specific to the area, as well as the spoken word is totally different, what is relevant here or there.

1899     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  That is very helpful.

1900     I have just one last area of questioning on the programming.

1901     Do you intend to share programming between your three stations?

1902     MR. W. EVANOV:  Not programming, but if there is good music we will share good music, as Al mentioned.

1903     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Thank you.


1904     MS LAURIGNANO:  Also, if there are things that would help some of the programming ‑‑ for example, the Canadian Spotlight program that is aired twice a week, on Saturdays and Sundays, is produced specifically for the benefit of Canadian artists, those who are new or emerging.  If there is an opportunity for resource material to be shared between the three stations, we as a company will make it known that the program directors and the music directors should be talking to each other and sharing that information; that it should be available from one to the other.

1905     Then locally it will be their decision whether to incorporate it or not.

1906     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Do the programming directors act completely independently then?

1907     MS LAURIGNANO:  Yes, they do.

1908     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  I mean, do they take direction?

1909     They must take some direction, obviously, from management.

1910     MS LAURIGNANO:  Yes.  There is a company manual pretty much where there are policies, guidelines, directions, things such as adherence to codes and standards, reporting procedures, grievances, handling complaints, expectations and that sort of thing.

1911     As far as the programming decisions, they are totally local.


1912     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Totally...?

1913     MS LAURIGNANO:  Local.  Each station will have its own program director, its own station manager, its own music director.

1914     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Thank you.

1915     I am going to move to the local and spoken word programming.

1916     Based on your audience research, what are the spoken word and information programming expectations of this 45‑plus target audience that you are addressing?

1917     MR. W. EVANOV:  I am going to ask Bob Linney to walk through that quickly.  Then Gary Gamble can detail what we will do.

1918     MR. LINNEY:  Madam Commissioner, one of the things that the research shows is that the entire programming package would be important to those who said they would definitely or would probably listen to The Jewel here in Calgary.

1919     As is the case in most markets, local news and information was one of the most important elements in selecting the radio station to listen to in this market.  We being Canadians, weather was second.


1920     Unique to Calgary was the high level of variety of music as an important programming element.  It usually ranks fourth or fifth in other research projects I have done.  In Calgary it came out third.

1921     Less repetition of songs ranked sixth, but only eight percentage points from the top ranking element of all of the local programming elements that you were asking about.

1922     So it meant that when we talk about the mix of music for The Jewel, as important is the mix of the various programming elements that you see in the programming grid.

1923     MR. GAMBLE:  Thanks, Bob.

1924     Based on that research, I will just give you thumbnail sketch as to how we plan on breaking down our news and spoken word, starting with our news content first of all.

1925     We base it on morning and afternoon newscasts, of which there will be 13 per day, Monday through Friday.  On the weekends we are running four on Saturday and another four on Sunday.

1926     At the top of the hour we run a complete news package, which our news headlines will entail 50 percent local news, 30 percent national news and 20 percent international.


1927     So we want to let the people of Calgary specifically know locally what is going on; whether it is of importance to them when it comes to the new thing out by City Council about how many garbage bags you are allowed to put out, right up to they are spending more money on the university here in Calgary.  The government is also provincially putting in more money for Francophone schools, four more.

1928     So that sort of thing for our particular demographic and listener is important to us, and we want to get that out.

1929     We do that 13 times a day, once again mornings and afternoons, mornings at the top of the hour; and also mornings at the bottom of the hour a news update.  That is designed to let people know what we are working on to come up to the top of the hour again.

1930     Also within that are surveillance reports when it comes to traffic, what is going on between here and the airport, what is going on on 4th Avenue for Calgary residents.

1931     We are running 32 reports per week over a five‑day period.


1932     Business reports, of course, in this particular demographic are just as important as news when it comes to Alberta here and oil and what is going on.

1933     More specifically, just the other day it was announced that housing in this province is going up considerably.

1934     So we want to let people know what is going on business‑wise in Calgary and of course what is happening across the country when it comes to the exchanges and numbers, and that sort of thing.

1935     Community Calendar reports.  The next bunch I am going to give you are what we call news and entertainment features, to let people know, for example, on the Community Calender for yesterday, being Family Day, what activities were available; where you can take the family to; events that are going on around town and what is coming up in the future.

1936     Those would run seven days per week, one minute per piece, and three times per day.

1937     Ski and golf reports.  Studies show that our listeners are extremely interested in this type of sport and leisure activities.  They are big with listeners for this format.

1938     So ski and golf reports, of course depending on the season, what is going on.  Of course, with Alberta there is no doubt that skiing is a major thing.


1939     Residents who live here know that.  We want to let them know specifically what the conditions are and, when it comes to golf, what various events are going on and where to go, that sort of thing.

1940     So we capsule that 19 times per week in one‑minute reports.

1941     Theatre and arts.  We want to let people know what is happening when it comes to the arts, what the various theatres are putting on, what is going on at museums; new things that are happening, new exhibits, and that sort of thing here in the Calgary area.

1942     Also something that is very big is Health Watch for our listeners.  We want to let them know new things that are being looked at, new things that are possibly coming up on the horizon when it comes to health.

1943     And also, of course, health care issues that are of national importance.  We want to let them know not only the types of things that are going on for their own personal health, but what is happening with the health care system, which of course is a huge thing right now.


1944     We would do that in seven reports, once per day.  And that is a 90‑second feature.

1945     Also within our demographic we want to promote and let people know what is going on with books and literature.  We will be running a book of the week feature twice on the weekends.

1946     That is a two‑minute feature.  We will maybe interview an author or someone who is releasing a book; also let them know what is going on nationally when it comes to best sellers; what is happening here in Calgary when it comes to best sellers.

1947     That is basically our news and feature spoken word.

1948     We also put into that what we are doing with Canadian Spotlight, the program we mentioned that is running on the weekends.  We are doing a lot of spoken word in there.  We don't want to just play the music; we want to let people know what these artists are all about and expose them personally as well as what they are doing when it comes to CDs, or what they are all about.

1949     So a major percentage of that Canadian Spotlight program will also be spoken word.


1950     That is a basic rundown as to how we want to handle that spoken word component of the programming.

1951     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Maybe you could help me out here a bit.

1952     I have from your file 16.6 hours per week of spoken word programming and that includes 5.8 hours of news.

1953     How would you break out ‑‑ do you have that sort of recapped to break out the 16.6?

1954     MR. GAMBLE:  Yes.  The 5.8 hours is specifically news.

1955     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Right.

1956     MR. GAMBLE:  The rest of that, traffic reports, our features are another 1.1 percent features, besides the news.

1957     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  That is 1.1 percent of the 16 hours?

1958     MR. GAMBLE:  Of the 16.7 hours, that's right.

1959     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  All right.

1960     MR. GAMBLE:  And the rest of that is our announcer talks, surveillance and everything else that would be encompassed in that.


1961     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  We were just wondering, of the 16.6 hours, what percentage, if you want to give it as a percent, would be unscripted casual disc jockey talk?

1962     MR. GAMBLE:  That would be approximately 7 to 7.5 percent.

1963     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Is that exceptionally high, low?

1964     MR. GAMBLE:  Based on what we do in Newmarket, not really.  When we are doing a morning show in the morning, for example, we are continually giving weather forecasts.  We are continually talking about school closings, for example.

1965     When it is throughout the mid‑day, our announcers are keeping track of what is going on across the wire and events and everything else.

1966     When we are talking about our new artists that we are playing throughout the day also, we give considerable talk to that, not just "here's a new song by a Canadian artist".  If we haven't got an interview scheduled, we will talk considerably about that.

1967     So when you take all that into consideration, there is quite a bit of announcer talk there.


1968     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  On what is referred to as Scripted Lifestyle Features, is that what refers to how you would describe the medical information?

1969     MR. GAMBLE:  That's correct.

1970     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Okay, that's fine.

1971     MS LAURIGNANO:  If I can clarify, all the features are scripted.

1972     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Yes.

1973     MS LAURIGNANO:  The Canadian Spotlight, the spoken word is also scripted.  And that is approximately an additional hour a week.

1974     The only things that are not scripted would be the announcer talk, which would include talk about music as well as other relevant information.

1975     There will be information‑type things that come on, and although it is not scripted it will be prepared.  It will be certainly vetted by the PD ahead of time.

1976     There will be adherence to the guidelines I spoke about before.  The announcer, for example, couldn't just on his or her own invent something.  There would be guidelines there about what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.

1977     Of course, not taking away any spontaneity, but there are safeguards in there.


1978     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  These scripted features, then, I presume you would repeat those a number of times through the day to make sure that you get the audience, or through the week.

1979     MS LAURIGNANO:  Some of them are, some of them are not.

1980     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  What distinguishes your proposed service in this area from what is currently being offered by the other commercial stations?

1981     MS LAURIGNANO:  What distinguishes it is that it is different.  It is something different.  It is an alternative to some of the other services.

1982     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  This is the scripted program.

1983     MS LAURIGNANO:  Oh, I'm sorry, the scripted program.

1984     It distinguishes it in the fact that it is targeting the demographic and it is specifically designed to reach that audience and to reflect their interest, which we have been told is what they are.

1985     So yes, of course weather is weather and traffic is traffic.  But that is a common element and we are not looking to distinguish ourselves in that regard.


1986     To our knowledge, we are not aware of people who are offering a regular health feature or book of the week or that kind of thing.

1987     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  With regard to staffing, what do you propose with respect to the number of people in your news department?

1988     MR. FALKENBERG:  What we are proposing is the news director would do the morning news.  The afternoon news would be two reporters and also we would be using two interns to help us with some of the reporting and out of the station work, for a total of six.

1989     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Fulltime people then?

1990     MR. FALKENBERG:  Two fulltime, two part‑time and two interns.

1991     MS LAURIGNANO:  That is the news component.

1992     In terms of the overall staffing of the station, we are looking at 27 to start.

1993     I believe, Doug, we have 21 fulltime and six part‑time?

1994     MR. FALKENBERG:  Twenty‑two fulltime and five part‑time.

1995     MS LAURIGNANO:  Okay.  We just hired somebody else.


1996     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  You do mention your advisory committee in your brief.

1997     We are wondering if you could describe briefly for us the duties of this committee.

1998     MS LAURIGNANO:  Yes.  The scope of the committee is outlined in the application.  However, I would be happy to give you the short version.

1999     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Yes.

2000     MS LAURIGNANO:  The advisory committee will be comprised of approximately 10 or 12 members.  We are looking in that committee for diversity, both in terms of age demographics, gender, designated groups and varieties of backgrounds.

2001     So we are looking at people who perhaps are in the medical field, it could be a musician, musical people who can help us and give us guidance with some of our CTD initiatives.

2002     At the end of the day we are really looking for a committee who will give us a sense of what the community standards are, what is acceptable and what is desirable within this demographic group.


2003     This committee is strictly an advisory committee.  It will be chaired by the station manager.  While we will take the advice and recommendations, we understand that we are the broadcasters and we are responsible for all the programming that goes on air and the final decisions.

2004     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  I notice you had been asked earlier in some of the deficiencies, I think, whether you had recruited anybody.

2005     Have you recruited anybody to this point?  I know you had not at that point.

2006     MS LAURIGNANO:  We have several candidates in mind and we have spoken, but nobody has been confirmed in that sense.

2007     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Thank you.

2008     Canadian content.  In your application you commit to broadcasting a weekly minimum of 40 percent.

2009     Would you confirm that you would accept that commitment as a condition of licence?

2010     MS LAURIGNANO:  Yes, we would.

2011     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  With respect to the period between 6:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. Monday to Friday, could you confirm the level of content that you are proposing for that period?

2012     MS LAURIGNANO:  Yes.  We would commit to a minimum of 35 percent between 6:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m., but the 40 percent throughout the day and the week.


2013     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  That's fine; thank you.

2014     Turning to the CTD initiatives, there are two here that we wanted to discuss at length.

2015     I understand that the Catalogue of Canadian Instrumental Music initiative appears to be identical to the CTD initiative proposed as part of your Ottawa licence.

2016     Is it the same initiative or are there differences between your Calgary catalogue initiative and the Ottawa initiative?

2017     MS LAURIGNANO:  It is the same catalogue, but the initiative per se is different in that what we have committed to for Ottawa is a stand‑alone project or could be a stand‑alone project.  There is sufficient funds and sufficient information and objectives there to sustain it at least for the seven years of the licence term that we have done.

2018     However, the catalogue, in our view, is a great and terrific resource that could grow, and it is our intention actually to grow it and make it a resource for the broadcasting system and not an Evanov property in any way.


2019     We do believe that an influx of funds of $600,000 which we are proposing here will accomplish several objectives.

2020     Very quickly, I can tell you that the catalogue is proceeding very well.  We have established a criteria already for the data.  We have engaged a third party which is going to look after it.  We have a critical path established.  The third party has begun to assemble the data that will go into this web page program.

2021     We are looking to have a number of titles by the end of the year, of about 2,500 for the instrumental music.

2022     If Calgary is licensed and we could add those funds, what it would do for the catalogue is it will take it to a next level in terms of offering other initiatives.  Those initiatives would be that the catalogue could be marketed, both locally and regionally, so that we could begin to acquire content for the catalogue from this area of the country.


2023     So specifically throughout Alberta, British Columbia and the prairies, we would be getting out to the clubs.  We would be meeting people and associations to augment the titles within the catalogue, as well as see how this catalogue could become a resource for broadcasters, for the public, for the industry, such as film producers and other potential users.

2024     We would also dedicate ‑‑ and I have a breakdown.

2025     If you look at the breakdown of the $600,000, we have $150,000 for Year 1, and there are $75,000 across the rest of the years.

2026     We recognize to get the infrastructure in place as soon as possible you need to do a bit of the investment right at the beginning.  So in Year 1 we are looking at $50,000, which would go toward going to exhibits, industry events where we could do workshops, where we could offer information about the catalogue one‑on‑one with people.

2027     We are looking at $20,000 which would go toward job fairs and online webcasts.  So we would have experts four times a year, for example, and the artists who will be linked to the catalogue, or who are already part of it, would have an opportunity to discuss career opportunities.  How do I record?  How do I get my recording?  How do I get a play?  How can I get engagement contracts?


2028     The rest, which is another $80,000, would go to the marketing of the catalogue: making it known as a resource across the country and we think, quite frankly internationally.  We would be looking at other opportunities, whether it is just across the border to the United States here or at some other industry event like the National Association of Broadcasters Convention, and that kind of thing.

2029     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  When you refer to the marketing of the catalogue then, that is going to be revenue generating?  Or are you thinking more of just promoting it?

2030     MS LAURIGNANO:  No.  The marketing in this case means that we are making it known that this resource is available and this is how artists can get on and composers can get on it; how the industry ‑‑ for example, if a film producer is looking for an artist to write a music score or a documentary score, then we believe that we have to get to those people to say, "Hey, look, there is a Canadian resource that you can access."

2031     The resource is going to be such that it will be extremely interactive and very comprehensive.

2032     For example, we are not just listing a title of a selection or a CD.  There is artist information.  There is a link to the artist, to the management, if the artist wants an opportunity to sample the music or to have it downloaded, et cetera.


2033     It is a very comprehensive program.

2034     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  So there is no charge, either to the artist to be registered on it or for anybody to access it to get the information.  It is completely funded by the initiative.

2035     MS LAURIGNANO:  It is completely funded by the association.

2036     Actually, I am very encouraged by the fact that I have had several calls ‑‑ I shouldn't say several, but I have had two phone calls from other broadcasters who either have plans to apply a similar format in the future and they wanted to know how they could qualify CTD expenditures to tag along with this, or if there was a way that they could contribute part of their CTD commitment to the catalogue as part of the ongoing kind of commitment, and what its status was as a third party contribution and as a recognized contribution.

2037     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  I'm sure you have already anticipated the question.  The concern is that the CTD benefits are intended to give a commensurate benefit to the Canadian broadcasting system.


2038     I am new at the Commission so I wasn't here at the time of the Ottawa hearing, but I gather that the $920,000 was a first.

2039     MS LAURIGNANO:  M'hm.

2040     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  And that it was going to be self‑sufficient.

2041     You have already anticipated those questions.

2042     MS LAURIGNANO:  Right.

2043     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Now we will be then agreeing to $1.5 million.  So we have to be satisfied that it is meeting the objective.

2044     MS LAURIGNANO:  Yes.  One of the things that we undertook during the Ottawa hearing, and which I will reiterate here, is that we intend to file regular annual reports just exactly to explain how the funds are being spent and what sort of returns we are getting.

2045     The other thing I mention is that, you know, it is not something that we necessarily want to handle.  We are just very proud to set it up and get it going.


2046     One of the things that the CTD co‑ordinator ‑‑ one of the first jobs that the CTD co‑ordinator is undertaking is that of going with the third parties to the various associations and organizations in our industry, such as FACTOR, Musique Action, as well as the CAB and elsewhere, just to discuss the project and how we as an industry can all embrace it and take it forward.

2047     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  So again, as you have already said, if it wasn't approved here, that is not going to prevent you from continuing on with the Ottawa one.

2048     MS LAURIGNANO:  Absolutely.  It can stand on its own.

2049     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  I am just trying to understand how much the Ottawa initiative will be limited if this is not acceptable.

2050     MS LAURIGNANO:  Well, there is absolutely no question that if we are on this crusade to bring this format across the country and to take it to the big markets, the major markets, such as Ottawa and Calgary and elsewhere where the future is, that this goes hand‑in‑hand with everything that we are trying to develop.

2051     So yes, Ottawa for its region, for where it is, it is going to do the job because we did think about it and it does have a business plan.  But there is absolutely no question that if we can grow this, it is going to be a tremendous benefit.


2052     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Not to indicate that it won't be acceptable, but if it was not acceptable, would you maintain your level of CTD budget at $4.65 million to something else to allocate the funds?

2053     MS LAURIGNANO:  Yes, we would.

2054     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Thank you.

2055     I am now referring to the CTD co‑ordinator, and I am sure you probably anticipated these questions too.

2056     We wanted some clarification on the actual portion of the proposed $5 million budget that the co‑ordinator will be responsible for overseeing.

2057     That is the initiatives that would require an extensive time commitment on the part of the co‑ordinator.

2058     MS LAURIGNANO:  Yes.

2059     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  For example, if we take the $5 million and take out the $350,000 seven‑year salary for that person and take out 15 projects ‑‑ I won't list them because you will probably grasp what I am referring to ‑‑ that seemed to involve not much more than writing a cheque.

2060     Those 15 projects total $1.645 million.


2061     That would leave three projects, The Jewel Concert Tour, CD Development and Canadian Music Week, $3.05 million.

2062     We are wondering, first of all, if the CTD co‑ordinator will have other day‑to‑day responsibilities.

2063     MS LAURIGNANO:  Okay, there is a lot of things there.

2064     First, the CTD co‑ordinator will absolutely not have day‑to‑day responsibilities other than that of looking after the Canadian Talent Development initiative.

2065     There are 18 initiatives altogether.  The level of involvement that it will require, even if you discounted some of those and said that in some cases we are sort of writing a cheque, even though we are not, there is a tremendous amount of work.

2066     For example, the CD project, the way our company does business, we don't do cheques.  We don't just write cheques.  We are there to make sure that every penny is spent, and you can bet that we are going to be ‑‑ those festivals there, making sure that it is going the way it is supposed to be.


2067     To give the example of the CD project, at a glance you would think that we are just going to press these CDs and kind of like park them somewhere, but in effect there is a whole bunch of things that the CTD co‑ordinator will be responsible for.

2068     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  If I can just interrupt, we did identify the concert tour ‑‑

2069     MS LAURIGNANO:  Right.

2070     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  ‑‑ and the CD development and Canadian Music Week as projects that would require a lot of involvement.

2071     MS LAURIGNANO:  Yes.

2072     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  It was just some of the others, the Folk Music Festival, maybe you could explain some of what the co‑ordinator would do.

2073     MS LAURIGNANO:  Okay.  Well, there is no question that those three projects alone would be more than a fulltime job for anybody, simply because they require a lot.  It is everything from setting up committees that are going to judge and select music for the CDs, to making sure that certain criteria are met and that kind of thing.


2074     In a lot of cases we will require that each party in the initiative is contacted, that there are face‑to‑face meetings; that the funds are going to be directed exactly to where they were intended to go.  And that is that the benefit has to go to the artist.

2075     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Right.

2076     MS LAURIGNANO:  In the case, it could be a small community festival but we want to make sure that it is the performers who are getting the money and that we are not just buying coffee and donuts for the parents.

2077     In our view, there is more than enough work for the CTD co‑ordinator.

2078     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  I appreciate that.

2079     For the record ‑‑ not that it is going to be disallowed necessarily ‑‑ the CTD co‑ordinator would be the same answer.  You would still maintain your same level of benefit of $5 million if that was disallowed?

2080     MS LAURIGNANO:  Yes, we would, because we really hand‑picked these initiatives and we have a relationship with the people who are going to be at the receiving end, for sure.

2081     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Thank you.  I appreciate your frankness.  That's great.


2082     In closing on the discussion on Canadian Talent Development, you committed to spending $435,000 in Year 1, sort of staggered, up to Year 7 where it is $845,000?

2083     MS LAURIGNANO:  Yes.

2084     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Would you be prepared to accept that as a condition of licence: to spend the incremental annual CTD budget at the level set out in Section 7.2 of your application, as a condition of licence?

2085     MS LAURIGNANO:  Yes, we would.

2086     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Thank you.

2087     It was noted in your financial projections that you project revenue growth as only 1.5 percent annually.

2088     We are wondering, because we don't want to be bullish on this ourselves, what factors you took into considering the 1.5.

2089     MR. W. EVANOV:  I am going to ask our Vice President of Sales, Ky, to respond to that.

2090     MS JOSEPH:  When we started the process of evaluating the revenues in Calgary, $70 million was the revenue for the 2004 publishing.  That is what we started with.


2091     I realize that Calgary has seen increases of huge proportion, 15 percent above the national average, and of course far outweighing even what analysts had predicted the Calgary market would do.

2092     We believe that the Calgary market is healthy.  We certainly see growth.

2093     We have used the 1.5 percent growth index for our own revenues based on the following.  The demographic that we are going to serve is the 45‑to‑64 demographic.  It's let's just call it out of this money demo.  So it is already segmented.

2094     You know, if you look at a lot of the growth in a marketplace, it is directed toward I guess the bigger portion of the demographics.  So that would be one of the main reasons why we attributed the 1.5 as our growth margin.

2095     You know, as well, coming into this market we know ‑‑ coming into any market it's tough.  We are an independent coming into this market.  We are not going to have any combo‑ing efforts.  For that reason we will not see slush funds of revenue, shall we call it.

2096     So essentially that is how we came up with the 1.5 number.


2097     I think just as recently as a couple of days ago the Conference Board of Canada came up with a 4 percent increase over the next year and I think 3.3 percent in 2007.  So we are certainly not that far off in terms of the growth margin indicated.

2098     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Would you agree it is probably pretty conservative then?  You are comfortable that it is 1.5?

2099     MS JOSEPH:  I wouldn't use conservative.  I would use more realistic, based on our experience and based on the fact that, as I said, it is an out of demo demo.  It is not the money demo.  It is not the 25‑to‑54.

2100     When you are looking at a share‑to‑ratio revenue or what some might consider a power ratio, what they call a power ratio, demos like this would generally under‑perform just based on the sheer fact that it is out of those core money demos.

2101     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Thank you.

2102     I notice that you are projecting 35 percent of your revenue to come from other media, to be taken from other media.

2103     We are wondering what evidence you have to support that 35 percent number.

2104     MS JOSEPH:  That number, that 35 percent other media, would be just over $1 million in terms of our projection.


2105     When we look at our revenues in the marketplace, there are some guidelines that we use; for example, the cost per point or bottom‑up projection.  It is not something that necessarily we would build our business plan on, but it is something that we use as a guideline.

2106     As well, I mentioned the share‑to‑revenue ratio or the top‑down projection.

2107     One of the most important keys to our financial business plan and to our success is looking at, first of all, the demographics, looking at the audience size, looking at the expenditures, market conditions, and then of course doing a major, major surveillance canvassing of the retail business sector.

2108     You will notice from our business plan that 95 percent of our revenues are generated from local businesses in Year 1.  Only 5 percent is national.

2109     The reason for that, again, is because it is the 45‑to‑64 demographic.

2110     Canvassing categories, speaking to business owners, we came up with a very realistic approach.  The 35 percent is based on, I guess, a survey of 100 businesses.  In the first year of operation, you may have anywhere from 250 to 300 advertisers, so that would be a pretty substantial survey, if you will, of the business community.


2111     Thirty‑five percent would be considered advertisers that use print, that use billboard, other media.

2112     I could go on forever.

2113     But to give you an example, Condo Condo, as we mentioned in our opening statement, they use print and billboard and they spend upwards of $100,000 in media.  They are looking for a radio partner, and they haven't actually come across one in Calgary as of yet.

2114     There was a campaign that was done in Toronto which was, as they quoted, "Sinatra‑esque" and which has been very successful there.  So they are trying to mimic that for their business plan here.

2115     There are several other testimonial letters and personal conversations that I and my sales team have had with these advertisers.

2116     So 35 percent we think is a very realistic number in terms of that revenue percentage.

2117     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Thank you.

2118     MS LAURIGNANO:  We also have a live model as a format, which is the Newmarket station FOXY 85.  So we can track and we have tracked what the sales are, where they are coming from there.


2119     And this is consistent with this kind of format, what we can expect.

2120     We are also beginning to realize some of the results in Ottawa, that even though we have just begun testing, we already have ‑‑ I think Sky can tell you that we have sales already in, and they are coming from these kinds of revenue streams, the non‑traditional type of radio advertising.

2121     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  I just have a couple of other questions here ‑‑ two actually.

2122     I am sure you are aware of the problem with the 92.9 frequency; that there are a number of competing applications.

2123     I don't think we have from you if you have identified another frequency.

2124     MS LAURIGNANO:  That is correct.

2125     In our reply we ‑‑ well, when we were looking at frequencies, we surveyed a number and we were advised that there were a few that were acceptable or adequate to meet our business plan.  At that time we decided that 92.9 was adequate for our business plan and we did not explore any other frequencies.


2126     Since then, we have.  And although we don't have a technical brief, we are told that, for example, 90‑point ‑‑ well, at least some of the ones that have been identified in these proceedings are acceptable and would not alter our business plan in any way.

2127     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Maybe you could give us those numbers.

2128     MS LAURIGNANO:  Yes, I will.

2129     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  If you could, that would be great.

2130     My last question, and everybody has had a chance to answer the question:  How many new licensees do you think the Calgary market can sustain?

2131     MR. W. EVANOV:  Before I answer that, I want to say something ‑‑ and I will swallow my vanity.

2132     I saw the Chairman this morning when he put on his headset sort of mention something this morning.  And in the afternoon my eyes start to get a little bit blurry and I don't have the right prescription for the glasses so it makes some things a little bit difficult.  So if I was sort of not communicating with you properly earlier, that was the reason, because I was seeing double 3's and double 4's for a while.

2133     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  I hope I look better.

‑‑‑ Laughter


2134     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That may explain your revenue projections.

2135     MR. W. EVANOV:  Absolutely.  It's not billions.

2136     When I read the speech, actually I was squinting a lot just to make sure I got every word in there.  That's why I read very slowly.

2137     In terms of the Calgary market, it is a very healthy, robust market.  In past hearings we have always said we don't care who you license, we are a very strong company.  We are strong on the streets.  We are very organized.

2138     I have let a whole team here handle this hearing today, and they are phenomenal.  They are dynamite people.  All our managers are good, our music people, everywhere at all the stations.

2139     So we are not afraid of competition.  We compete in Toronto in the biggest market against all the giants and we do it very, very well.  We are going to do extremely well in Ottawa, we believe.


2140     What Carmela did not say was that we have already received 10 percent of our bookings before we ever went to air for the first year, and that's pretty good.  That means that there is a real demand in Ottawa for this format, and there is a demand by the retail clients for this particular format.

2141     In terms of coming back to Calgary, I can't tell you how many you can license.  Obviously there is a hole at the bottom.  There is a hole, we believe, at the 45‑plus.  And although there are other applicants in the 45‑plus, we feel that from a programming point of view we cover that much better than they do.

2142     Some of them are narrowcasting to the eighties and nineties.  Other are narrowcasting to the sixties and seventies.  We cover the whole period.  We play the greatest music ever recorded.  We cover the whole period from the fifties right up to 2000, and even 40 percent of what we are going to play is going to be 2000‑plus.  We span a different time.

2143     So I think there is only one applicant for the top end, and that's our station.

2144     Then I will let you determine who might be ‑‑ well, both; who will be at the bottom end.  We think for sure two.  You may decide three.  I don't know.

2145     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  But only one in that format, that age group, is what you suggest.


2146     MR. W. EVANOV:  Yes.  We would suggest that.  But even if you didn't, it wouldn't bother us because we are going to win anyway.

‑‑‑ Laughter

2147     MS LAURIGNANO:  We would be sorry for the other ones.

2148     Commissioner, I have the answer to those frequencies that you were asking about.

2149     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Great; thank you.

2150     MS LAURIGNANO:  One would be 90.3 and the other one is 100.3 just at a glance, but we would be happy to get a full brief or to find another frequency if one was available, if you give us a licence.

2151     COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Thank you very much.

2152     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam del Val.

2153     COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

2154     I don't know if you are aware of CIRPA's intervention, which is 445.  One of the concerns they raised was a lack of diversity of playlists, not just musical formats.

2155     I know that you have a similar station in Ottawa.  Will you be playing different playlists?


2156     MR. W. EVANOV:  To begin with, we are changing or adding to our playlist every day ‑‑ and I may let Al speak to this.

2157     We have a library of 25,000 titles, but we only have an active library of maybe 5,000.  So songs will come in and will go out.

2158     Also, we mentioned ‑‑ and if CIRPA is really concerned ‑‑ that of the Canadian music we play, 70 percent is going to be new or relatively new.  That is a major undertaking on our part.  I would think the whole thing there has to revolve around Canadian talent and not just the whole library.

2159     In terms of promoting Canadian talent, we do a lot of things.  We have promised 40 percent.

2160     Most of our music will have one or two spins a week.  The Canadian music gets probably three or four spins a week.  But if you are new or an emerging, you get 20 spins a week because we have a specialty category.  So that spins that particular music.

2161     We are always going out into the market.  We are seeking new music.  We are asking people to come and see us, that type of thing.  When they come, we don't just play their music; we interview them.  We do whatever we can.


2162     We brought in various acts.  We brought in Jose Feliciano, one of the best shows Toronto has seen in years.  The opening act for that was Richard Abel from Quebec.

2163     We brought in Al Martino, and we had a Canadian opening act for him.

2164     We brought in a few others.  In other words, we work very hard to do whatever we have to do to promote Canadian talent.

2165     COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

2166     MS LAURIGNANO:  We are aware of CIRPA's intervention.  Actually, we answered it.

2167     We agree with CIRPA in short.  If they want diversity, if you are looking at the duplication analysis that we offered and the closest station in this market, we duplicate 30 titles in a week.  I think by coming in we are offering diversity.

2168     The other thing that we are doing is we are offering instrumental music, which that in itself is a major benefit.

2169     So we agree with them.

2170     COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

2171     Those are my questions.


2172     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Before I go into my last question, I also heard this afternoon that Bill doesn't like cutting cheques.

‑‑‑ Laughter

2173     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You already started, Mr. Evanov, but I will give you a chance to wrap up your presentation, if you could do it in five minutes or less.  Tell us why we should grant you the licence.

2174     MR. W. EVANOV:  I can give you a thousand reasons, but I am going to let Carmela do a few of them right now.

2175     MS LAURIGNANO:  Thank you.

2176     I will keep it short because I know it has been a long day for everybody.

2177     We have designed a radio operation for Calgary that will be local.  It will not take away from what is here now, but it will bring back to radio a generation that was brought up on radio but which is now listening to it less and less.

2178     We tested our format with potential listeners and advertisers.  The potential advertisers quoted in our application show a clear demand for the service we propose, sufficient to bring them into radio for the first time in Calgary.


2179     The number of potential listeners was also detailed in our application and are sufficient to make our service a good and sound business for Calgary.

2180     Our format has the least amount of duplication with existing formats in the city, and we will bring an entirely new voice to Calgary.  We will bring new radio revenues to serve the older demographic because we are the only ones who intend to build an entire audience and not share with other services.

2181     Our Canadian content commitment exceeds the Commission's expectations for an Easy Listening licence.

2182     Our CTD package addresses systemic issues in Canada, as well as the benefit and the development of Canadian talent in the Calgary and surrounding areas.

2183     We are a fresh, innovating, new, aggressive, progressive company and we would welcome the opportunity to become a positive addition and a force in this market.

2184     Finally, being a veteran of a number of hearings ‑‑ and I know Commissioner Langford and Commissioner Williams ‑‑ I can tell you that these are the best chairs that you have ever provided your applicants.

2185     So thank you very much.  I don't have any splinters when I get up today.


2186     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

2187     We will adjourn until 8:30 tomorrow morning.

‑‑‑ Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1800, to resume

    on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 at 0830 /

    l'audience est ajournée à 1800, pour reprendre

    le mercredi 22 février 2006 à 0830

 

 

REPORTERS

 

 

                                

 

_____________________                     _____________________

Doug Lebel                       Lynda Johansson

 

 

 

 

_____________________                     _____________________

Jean Desaulniers                                Fiona Potvin

 

  

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