ARCHIVÉ -  Transcription

 

 

 

 

 

 

              TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES AVANT

                CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

                          SUBJECT:

 

 

 

VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

 

Embassy Suites Hotel                  Embassy Suites Hotel

Rooms A/B/C                           Salons A/B/C

6700 Fallsview Boulevard              6700, boulevard Fallsview

Niagara Falls, Ontario                Niagara Falls (Ontario)

 

 

June 7, 2005                          Le 7 juin 2005

 

 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

 

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

                 Transcript / Transcription

 

 

                             

              VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

            PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

                             

 

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Charles Dalfen                    Chairperson / Président

Barbara Cram                      Commissioner / Conseillère

Richard French                    Commissioner / Conseillier

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Stuart Langford                   Commissioner / Conseillier

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Chantal Boulet                    Secretary / Secrétaire

 

James Murdock                     Legal Counsel /

                                  Conseiller juridique

 

Steve Parker                      Hearing Manager /

                                  Gérant de l'audience

 

Pierre Lebel

 

 

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

 

Embassy Suites Hotel              Embassy Suites Hotel

Rooms A/B/C                       Salons A/B/C

6700 Fallsview Boulevard          6700, boulevard Fallsview

Niagara Falls, Ontario            Niagara Falls (Ontario)

 

 

June 7, 2005                      Le 7 juin 2005

 

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE I

 

 

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

 

Byrnes Communications Inc.                        411 / 2302

 

Standard Radio Inc.                               476 / 2671

 

CHUM Limited                                      550 / 3199

 

Newcap Inc.                                       595 / 3477

 

Sound of Faith Broadcasting                       651 / 3821

 

Tillsonburg Broadcasting Company Limited          705 / 4151

     Niagara Falls, Ontario / Niagara Falls (Ontario)

‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Tuesday June 7, 2005 at 0933 /

    L'audience reprend le mardi 7 juin 2005 à 0933

2289             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

2290             Good morning, everyone.  I would ask the secretary to call the next item, please.

2291             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

2292             We will now proceed today with items 2 to 7 on the agenda.  These items are competing applications and we will proceed as follows:

2293             First, we will hear each applicant in the agenda order and each applicant will be granted twenty minutes to make his presentation.  Questions from the Commission will follow each presentation.

2294             In Phase 2 the applicants reappear in the same order to intervene on the competing applications if they wish.  Ten minutes are allowed for this purpose.

2295             Questions from the Commission may follow each intervention.

2296             In Phase 3 other parties will appear in the order set out in the agenda to present their appearing intervention.  Again, questions from the Commission may follow.

2297             Phase 4 provides an opportunity for each applicant to reply to all the interventions submitted on their application.  Applicants appear in reverse order.  Ten minutes are allowed for this reply and again questions may follow.

2298             And now, Mr. Chairman, we will proceed with Item 2 on the agenda, which is an application by Byrnes Communications Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Woodstock.

2299             The new station would operate on frequency 104.7 megahertz, channel 284A, with an average effective radiated power of 1,910 watts.

2300             Appearing for the applicant, Mr. Chris Byrnes, and Mr. Byrnes will introduced his colleagues.

2301             You have twenty minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

2302             MR. BYRNES:  Thank you, Madam Secretary.

2303             Good morning, Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission.

2304             My name is Chris Byrnes and I'm the majority shareholder and president of Byrnes Communications and we are pleased to appear before you today to present our application for an FM station to serve the city of Woodstock, Ontario.

2305             I would like to introduce the panel accompanying me.  To my right is Gord Marratto, my partner in Byrnes Communications.  Gord will be the general manager of the new station should the Commission grant us the licence.

2306             To Gord's right is the mayor of Woodstock, His Worship Michael Harding and to my left is Brad Janssen, a well‑known Woodstock broadcaster.  Directly behind me is Jeff Vidler, partner with Solutions Research Group, the company which conducted extensive research on our behalf.

2307             In the application we have submitted to you we address the concerns of the CRTC regarding impact on the Woodstock market, the competitive state, the diversity of news voices and the quality of our application.

2308             We also speak to the Commission's desire to ensure small independent broadcasters can survive and thrive in a world of constant consolidation.

2309             I believe we have interpreted these perspectives correctly and I believe we have the wherewithal to meet your standards and exceed them.

2310             The journey here for me started in 1997, when as a minority shareholder in a successful radio company in New Zealand known as The More FM Group, the majority shareholders decided to sell the company.  That allowed me to fulfil a wedding day promise to my Canadian bride and to move our young family here to Canada.

2311             I had been visiting Canada since the mid‑eighties and watching the Canadian broadcast industry with some interest.

2312             We arrived in January of 1998 and I became a Canadian citizen in 2000.  I then began looking for an opportunity to once again become involved in radio ownership.  I started a broadcast consulting company, Byrnes Media, which has grown to be the second‑largest Canadian programming consultancy in the Canada.  We offer programming and marketing advice to over 25 radio stations in Canada in markets as large as Toronto and as small as Castlegar, British Columbia.

2313             On one of my trips through Southern Ontario I heard about the lack of local radio service in Woodstock and started to investigate.

2314             It was at about that time that I met Gord Marratto, who had been the owner of the Woodstock radio station when it had been a vibrant local FM station in the late eighties and early nineties.

2315             His broadcasting career also included a long partnership with the principals of Eastern Broadcasting and Gord brings invaluable experience to our partnership.  He looks forward to returning to Woodstock to live and work, where he spent fifteen years of his life.

2316             MR. MARRATTO:  Thank you, Chris.

2317             Indeed I do look forward to being back in Woodstock in the radio business.

2318             Fourteen years ago I thought that early retirement would be a fine way to spend the golden years, but I soon found that broadcasting was deeply rooted in my blood.  Imagine the satisfaction finding the opportunity to revisit my career in my hometown of Woodstock.

2319             Almost sixty years ago the CBC's board of governors approved a licence for a radio station in Woodstock and in December of 1947 the station had its own local news and entertainment broadcasting service, but starting in the 1990s the current owner began moving the radio station piece by piece to London.

2320             By 2000 there was nothing left of the once flourishing radio station but a building on the main street and a receptionist to answer the phones and give out prizes.

2321             To have once had its own radio station, but now be without meaningful local radio service is even more frustrating to the people Woodstock.

2322             During the great power blackout of 2003 almost everyone found a battery‑operated radio and tuned into an area radio station.  It was, after all, our only link to immediate news.

2323             Hospitals needed to speak to possible visitors during the SARS epidemic and right now at this very minute there is a dangerous rubella outbreak in Oxford County, but the local effects of these emergencies and the immediate need for communications still frustrate the residents of Woodstock and area.

2324             Our company, with its knowledge of the market and its local broadcasting experience wants to fill the void that has been left.  We know how to make good radio; moreover we know now to make good radio in Woodstock.

2325             Members of the Commission, we're asking you for the opportunity to do just that.  In June of 2003 we commissioned a technical study to find a frequency to bring local radio back to the city.  It was, in fact, our company which was the first to uncover the 104.7 frequency as a possible choice to serve Woodstock.  We filed our application on January 26th, 2004.

2326             The person I'm about to introduce supported our application from the very beginning. He has been consistently vocal in his disappointment with the current licensed broadcaster.  Members of the Commission, I would like to introduce you to one of the most active and community‑inspired mayors I've ever had the pleasure of meetings Woodstock's mayor, His Worship Michael Harding.

2327             MR. HARDING:  Thank you, Mr. Marratto, for those very kind words.

2328             Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission, I am Michael Harding and I'm proud to be the mayor of the City of Woodstock and a councillor for the County of Oxford.

2329             My city is enjoying its greatest growth in fifty years.  Manufacturing, service and retail sectors have been expanding at a record pace in this new millennium.  Some are predicting that our population might almost double in the next ten years. It's truly an exciting time for my city.

2330             Even before my election in the fall of 2003, I was appalled that a city the size of Woodstock essentially had no commercial station.  The station known as The Hawk, which is owned by Corus Entertainment and licensed to serve Woodstock had long since abandoned the area, moving its operation to the City of London.

2331             I suppose for strategic reasons they aired little Woodstock or Oxford County information at all.  They never showed up to any of our local council meetings or attended at any of the important news events in our city.

2332             One of my campaign objectives was to see that the area got its local radio station back.  I was extremely gratified, therefore, when just after my election Chris Byrnes and Gord Marratto approached me to lend my support to an application for their company to establish ‑‑ perhaps re‑establish a radio station in the City of Woodstock.

2333             I was impressed by their broadcasting experience and Gord's knowledge of the Woodstock community.  I'd heard about their plans to hire 13 local full‑time staff and that there would be ownership living in Woodstock, because I believe it's vital to have 31 to top management right in our community.

2334             And I have vision for the City of Woodstock and that vision certainly includes a good local radio station that our people can turn to for critical information.  I also believe that the community will benefit by having an alternative news voice in addition to our local daily newspaper.

2335             I'm convinced that Byrnes Communication, being a small and independent company will be the best fit for our community and for all of us in Woodstock while we look forward to welcoming their new FM radio station in our city.

2336             On a final note, during the period that this application process has been underway, the one company that has turned up for every major function in Woodstock is, in fact, Byrnes Communications.  They have shown me their high degree of interest in being a part of Woodstock and I laud them for that.  I therefore give my support to their application and thank you.

2337             MR. MARRATTO:  And thank you, Your Worship.

2338             We have concluded that approximately 90 per cent of our station's revenue will be generated from Woodstock, Ingersoll and Oxford County.  Most of this retail base will be built from merchants who were disenfranchised when CKDK‑FM moved most of its operation to London and began charging major market rates.

2339             Our business plan does not contemplate attracting revenue from markets like London, Kitchener or Stratford.  The modest coverage contours preclude such a possibility and consequently we should have little or no effect on broadcasters in those markets.

2340             Likewise, Tillsonburg lies outside the proposed station's .5 mV/m contour and is unlikely to be impacted at all.

2341             Woodstock is on the threshold of unbridled industrial development.  The Financial Post Canadian demographics 2005 predicts over 500 million dollars in retail sales this year.

2342             There is an official announcement pending of a Toyota plant bringing 3,000 new jobs to the area and many are predicting huge population growth in the next ten years.

2343             Corus publicly admits to de‑emphasizing local sales efforts in Woodstock and from our monitors of CKDK‑FM we have determined they sell less than a hundred thousand dollars' of business annually in the area.  This is definitely a market ready for a new FM station.

2344             Members of the Commission, Brad Janssen will be the first employee as promotions manager of the new Woodstock station.  He is a native Woodstonian and is "Mister Radio" in Woodstock.

2345             I doubt there is one person in the city who isn't aware of Brad and the marvellous work he does for charitable groups and service organizations.  Just last month Chris Byrnes and I attended a Chamber of Commerce event where Brad was given the Award of Excellence as the outstanding citizen for his community service.

2346             Members of the Commission, I'm pleased to introduce you to Brad Janssen.

2347             MR. JANSSEN:  Thank you, Mr. Marratto.

2348             Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission, during my career as broadcaster in the City of Woodstock I have made a concentrated effort to draw attention to the causes and events that could benefit from top of mind awareness.

2349             Naturally, being a broadcaster gave me my profile and I make sure I use it with respect when I work on behalf of the many charities I serve.

2350             When Corus moved its operation to London a few years ago I felt somewhat manacled in my efforts to assist causes such as The Women's Emergency Centre, The Alzheimer's Society, Crohn's and Colitis Foundation and the Woodstock & District Developmental Services.

2351             Now, in my position as manager of community services for the City of Woodstock I am even more aware of how critical it is to have a local radio station to promote these causes.

2352             I worked for Gord Marratto for five years and when he and Chris Byrnes approached me about being part of their application I didn't hesitate to accept, because I personally believe their application to be in the best interest of Woodstock.

2353             For my part, I will oversee the station's promotions department.  It will offer me to the opportunity to extend the work I do for the community by providing a vehicle to promote the projects I co‑ordinate.  I will also be responsible for organizing and hosting a community advisory panel, which will offer advice on the overall interaction of the radio station with the community.

2354             I will also co‑ordinate the activities of the station's Community Cruiser, the daily schedule of "Focus on Woodstock" and our listener feedback line, which will allow people to call in and sound off on things that concern them. These two features will air a total of eight times daily and will play a major role in identifying our station with this community.

2355             Furthermore, we will make the radio station available to non‑profit organizations in the community so that they have 31 to live interviews, public service announcements, the Community Cruiser and many other promotional opportunities that become available.

2356             I am proud to say that I'm going to help Byrnes Communications work with the community to be the best possible radio station for Woodstock.

2357             Thank you.

2358             MR. BYRNES:  We are proposing a mainstream adult contemporary music station targeted at the 25 to 54 age demographic.  We commissioned the Solutions Research Group of Toronto and they sought the opinions of 300 people in the proposed coverage area.

2359             Our programming philosophies were formed by combining input from numerous community contacts and the findings provided by the research. Those conclusions can be found in our supplementary brief.

2360             We will play a minimum of 40 per cent Canadian content over our 126‑hour broadcast week.

2361             One of the benefits unique to our application is that we will add a distinct news voice to the area.  We are the only applicant applying for the Woodstock licence that has absolutely no affiliation with stations in London or nearby Kitchener.

2362             The competing applicants all own or are associated with a total of six radio stations that can be heard in Woodstock.  We believe that granting another licence to one of these existing broadcasters would not add diversity to the area.

2363             Service clubs and charitable organizations will also benefit from having a radio station to promote their campaigns.  I recently attended the 100th anniversary celebrations of Rotary International in Woodstock, where all the area Rotary Clubs gathered together.  There was no radio station in attendance.

2364             This lack of interest is perhaps the most common complaint we hear from community leaders, business owners and members of the public. Their plea is very, very clear.  Please, give us our local radio station back.

2365             We'll broadcast 11 hours and 18 minutes of spoken word content each week.  All our programming will be locally produced with the important 6A to 7P period Monday to Friday and midday periods on weekends live to air from our Woodstock studios.

2366             Our entire spoken word presentation will emphasize local information.  Over an average week, 70 per cent of all the content of our news will be local.

2367             MR. MARRATTO:  The weather in the Woodstock region changes at a whim and the area historically has endured some critical weather extremes.

2368             I just happened to be there at the radio station when the city was hit by a severe tornado in August of 1979.  There were four people killed and over 26 million dollars in property damage.  One of our radio station employees went home to find only his bathtub and chimney still intact.  Another almost lost his wife and infant daughter when their entire dining room was lifted skyward.

2369             The southwestern region of Ontario has the highest frequency of severe storms in Canada and almost as many tornados as the area known as Tornado Alley in the U.S.

2370             Winters are equally troublesome. Woodstock lies in a snow belt that extends southeast from Lake Huron and frequently has winter conditions that cause school closures and dangerous driving conditions.  The Woodstock area receives an average seven feet of annual snowfall, while in contrast the neighbouring Waterloo/Wellington/Perth area averages only four feet.

2371             Certainly these factors make Woodstonians wary of weather conditions and frequently searching for up‑to‑date forecasts and reports.

2372             MR. BYRNES:  Our station will provide weather reports with every newscast and when the weather turns bad we'll bring in additional staff to ensure listeners get frequent updates on school closings, school bus cancellations and road closures.

2373             We will install two traffic cameras high on the transmission tower at Bower Hill, the highest point in the area, so our announcers and news staff can have a clear view Of highways 401 and 403, both of which are trouble spots for traffic.

2374             As part of our commitment to reflect the local community we intend to foster internships for journalism and broadcasting students from facilities such as Fanshawe and Conestoga Colleges.

2375             I personally dedicate six days a year to speak to students in the broadcast colleges as a way to give something back to an industry that's been very good to me and that practice will continue.

2376             In the area of Canadian talent development we are proposing significant direct and indirect initiatives aimed at enhancing and promoting Canadian artists.  The direct expense contributions will amount to a minimum of $105,000 over the course of the seven year licence term and during that same period the indirect expense contributions will amount to a minimum of 269,500.

2377             After collaboration with members of the community, including the Rotary Clubs and the music teachers, we have outlined four major initiatives in our application.  Woodstock Idol, Student Music Scholarships, the Young Musicians Award and FACTOR together will provide $15,000 in direct commitments and a further 38,500 in indirect benefits each year.

2378             We believe that both from a monetary and execution point of view, these initiatives are substantial and aggressive undertakings for a company of our size and in a market the size of Woodstock.

2379             Byrnes Communications is comprised of two experienced broadcasters.  Both Gord Marratto and I have strong business and radio backgrounds.  We have a dedicated commitment to Canadian talent development and we will offer a distinct editorial and journalistic voice.

2380             Members of the Commission, my long‑term goal is to own and operate this radio station and ultimately provide a legacy for my children, who are here today.  Should the Commission grant our company the licence, I will do my best to ensure the Byrnes name is involved in broadcasting in Woodstock for many years to come.

2381             We have the experience, the financial resources, but most of all, the passion to make this happen.  All we need is a positive decision from the CRTC.

2382             MR. MARRATTO:  Leading up to this hearing Chris Byrnes and I have attended every major function in Woodstock.  We didn't see any of the other applicants at the Chamber of Commerce Annual Awards Dinner, or BIA general meeting or the Annual Agricultural Awards Dinner or the Mayor's annual state of the city address or any of the numerous council meetings we attended.

2383             We also visited many of the retail establishments seeking their written support.  We went to the hardware stores, the restaurants, the car dealerships, the clothing stores, letting Woodstock people know that we want to bring them the best local radio possible and asking them to lend us their support.

2384             Every township, town and city council in Oxford County has passed resolutions supporting our application.

2385             We intentionally avoided Tillsonburg in deference to that community having its own radio station.

2386             In fact, Byrnes Communications received over 400 letters of positive support, five times number of all our applicants combined.  The community knows that we are local people with local experience and our head office will be in Woodstock.

2387             We would like to thank the Commission for its time today and for hearing our presentation.  We encourage you to consider our application favourably and grant the next FM licence in Canada to our company, Byrnes Communications.

2388             Help us bring back local radio to the City of Woodstock, Ontario.  Thank you very much our panel welcomes any questions you might have.

2389             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, gentlemen.  Commissioner Langford.

2390             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

2391             Welcome to Niagara Falls, gentlemen, and we'll have a barrel of fun, if we can, and get through some of the questions.

2392             I must say, Mr. Marratto, I was wondering how long it would take before Mayor Harding whacked you over the head with a pot of water or something like that.  He's busy trying to sell his city as the place to live and the place to set up business and you've got Tornado Alley going down Main Street.  Seems to be a bit of a conflict there, but I must say I give him marks for holding himself in check.

2393             MR. MARRATTO:  God plays no favourites, I'm afraid.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

2394             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Some secrets are better kept dark.

2395             I don't have a lot of questions for you today and the reason for that is that you have a very, very clear application and you also have cleared up a few of the problems I had in this morning's presentation.

2396             But I do have some and what I want to concentrate on is, first of all, exactly what people will hear, just get a few more facts and some notion of your background thinking in the way you set it up and then a little bit on your financial plan and your business plan and then perhaps we'll end with a bit of ‑‑ you know, we'll sneak in a bit more on this whole notion of what's local and what isn't, which you seem to be selling as a very strong point, so I want to make sure that we understand that first of all.

2397             So let's talk, if we can, about what, I suppose, a lot of people go to the radio for, is entertainment and I'm interested that you have chosen the AC, the adult contemporary format, you've chosen the sort of 25 to 54 demographic, which I don't make it into anymore, I'm sorry to say, being only 24.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

2398             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And my first question is why?  I mean, I know generally that's a very popular demographic and I know generally that's a very popular sound, but as I count it presently if I live in Woodstock I can hear at this very moment five adult contemporary stations, perhaps with different takes on the AC format, and I can also hear two classic rocks kind of headed in the same direction.  So it seems like a crowded market. Why did you go there?

2399             MR. BYRNES:  Thank you, Commissioner.

2400             I will answer part of this question and then ask our research expert to also speak to this.

2401             The critical thing about our application and the one thing that was very clearly missing as Gord and I spent a lot of time walking the streets of Woodstock and talking to people, what is absolutely missing is local information.

2402             You are correct, there are some 15 signals, in fact, that are measured in that market as coming out of market via BBM.  In fact, there's over 90 per cent of all the listening in that market is done through out‑of‑market radio stations.

2403             The real challenge for the people Woodstock is where do they find the critical information?  Where do they find out about school closings and bus information and are the schools open and are the roads open?

2404             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  If I could interrupt and I rarely do that, but we'll get to that and I understand that that's the strength and the impact and the real focus of your application.  It's very clear in the application, you were clear this morning, you were clear again just now.

2405             What I'm trying to understand is why you will link this package of local to a format, to a music format, which, let's face it, music is what you're going to hear a lot of time on the station that's already there, already there in spades.

2406             MR. BYRNES:  Absolutely.  And, you know, we started out by conducting a research project that research project very clearly showed us that this particular format, in fact 73 per cent of all the people that we talked to and presented them with a style of music and played them samples of this music, 73 per cent of everyone that we talked to said that they would sample this radio station.

2407             Gord, do you have anything to add to that?

2408             MR. MARRATTO:  Yes, we do also have some experience from the past when we did ‑‑ when I was involved with a radio station in Woodstock that did broadcast AC music.

2409             Now, obviously the spectrum has changed a little.  There has been a CHUM station added to the London offering and I believe there's a country station out of the Kitchener that now comes into the Woodstock market, but at that time our AC mainstream radio station reached 49.5 per cent of the local audience.

2410             So it kind of gave us a bit of a feel for the fact that rural people, I believe, want a mainstream format.

2411             And, Mr. Commissioner, it's kind of a plus, in fact, that a number of people listen to variations of AC format.  They're listening to those stations, I believe, by default because they can't get local information.  But if we give them local information and the format that they're choosing now from our communities I think we have the right pairing.

2412             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So essentially what you're saying is somebody's going to lost, but it's not going to be you.

2413             MR. MARRATTO:  That's right.

2414             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  Because it is a crowded field.  I'm looking at some of the information that staff has assisted us by putting together here, but it's public information, and I'm looking at CKOT‑FM from Tillsonburg and that's adult standards.  Well, we're not too far off there; I'm looking at CHYM‑FM Kitchener, adult contemporary; CKDK Woodstock and that's classic rock; I'm looking at CFCA‑FM, hot adult contemporary; I'm looking at CIQM‑FM London, adult contemporary; CKNX Wingham, adult contemporary.

2415             There does seem to be a theme there.

2416             MR. MARRATTO:  Yes, there is.  But, for example, when you mention CKDK‑FM, the Woodstock station, whose audience at the moment has dropped down to a point where they're only at a 9.5 share in Woodstock.

2417             Also, they are ‑‑ that format pretty much targets young male adults, which is not where we're going.  You know, if I had to draw a picture of our average listener I project that will be probably a 38‑ to 40‑year‑old female mostly and a ‑‑ so I tend to think that there's plenty of opportunity for us without stealing from the local station, if you will.

2418             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Did you have a second choice that you ‑‑ when you sat around in the meeting kind of saying ‑‑ with your analysts saying, gee, where do we go?  It's just my curiosity. There's no value to the answer to this question negative or positive.

2419             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  There's a negative value.

2420             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But I wondering whether there was a second choice.

2421             MR. BYRNES:  Well, that's part of the reason why we brought our expert in terms of research with us today and Jeff Vidler will comment on that.

2422             MR. VIDLER:  The research was focused and the research project was structured to look at the one format that ‑‑ and, as Gord is referring to, that they have had experience with in the market and was indeed a successful format for the Woodstock station back in the days that Gord was managing that was a successful station.

2423             So based on local experience they had a very kind of clear idea or vision what they felt would best satisfy the audience and in a sense provide the natural link, I guess, between music and local information.  Format targeted towards 45 to 55 year olds, many of them with children, females in particular who would have particular interest in weather information, school bus closing information, some of that survival information that's critical on a local level.

2424             So it was on that basis that they then commissioned us to validate, if you like, verify, the nature of that audience and there's, you know, a couple of approaches you can take towards doing research for radio stations.

2425             You can look at multiple formats or you can focus on a single format and much like your Grade 11 science experiment, it's often better to work with a particular hypothesis and be able to develop that thoroughly, so that's what we did with the research, was we focused on their best guess to verify that there was, in fact, a market for it and that being the adult contemporary format.

2426             And it did allow us to not only describe the station, but to play a sample montage of the station, to ask some questions about the current listening habits of the market itself, attitudes towards local news and information and specific demands for local information and to cross‑tab that against the audience that would be attracted by an AC format.

2427             So it really allowed us to really thoroughly test the hypothesis and, in fact, it did come back that there was, indeed, a very natural link in terms of the demand for local news and information from this potential AC audience.

2428             Seventy per cent of the all the 18 to 64 year olds that we surveyed said that they would listen to ‑‑ spend more time listening to the radio if there was a local radio station that offered local information.

2429             That figure rose to 87 per cent among the people who would be attracted to the AC audience, the people that would be part of that weekly reach.  So in fact confirming that there's an audience for it, but also an audience that connects naturally to that demand for local news and information.

2430             MR. BYRNES:  And, lastly, we were somewhat interested to see that two of the other companies carried out research and came up with the same answer.

2431             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes, I noticed that as well.

2432             So essentially what you're saying is we know you like AC and if we top it up with a good dollop of local, will you listen to us?

2433             MR. BYRNES:  That's it.

2434             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Which existing stations, and we have been talking about some them in there now, do you think you're going to take some of these listeners from?  In other words, they're listening to their AC now, they're getting it, it may not be precisely what you're offering, but there's bound to be some overlap.

2435             Once you start adding the local factor to it, as you plan to do, where will the losers be?

2436             MR. BYRNES:  Well, we once again had Solutions Research do a switching study, and Jeff will speak to that in a moment, but the short answer is that we will generate audience from a number of radio stations.  We will impact no single radio station by no more than 3 per cent.

2437             Jeff, you've got some specific examples?

2438             MR. VIDLER:  Just looking again at the survey that we did and looking at those people who would be attracted to this AC FM would provide the weekly reach for the audience as such, the stations they currently listening to most often ‑‑ and these would the ones who presumably would be impacted by tuning ‑‑ BX93, which is actually a country station out of London, 14 per cent of the CUM or potential CUM to the AC FM station currently named BX93 as the station listened to most often; CHIME out of Kitchener, which you alluded to earlier, and adult contemporary station, but nonlocal adult contemporary station; FM96, rock station out of London, 12 per cent; The Hawk, 10 percent, the local station, only 10 per cent say it's currently the station listened to most often; BOB FM out of London; COOL FM out of the Kitchener; Country 93.3 out of Hamilton; 103.1 Energy FM; CBC Radio One; and only 4 per cent who currently listen to Easy 101 out of CKOT ‑‑ the CKOT‑FM in Tillsonburg.

2439             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.

2440             I just want to be clear about an inconsistency in your supplementary brief on the whole subject of repatriating listeners or taking listeners from out of town stations, depending how you like to phrase it.

2441             On page 8 of your supplementary brief you project a 90 per cent repatriation, but on page 19 you predict a 70 per cent.  Is there something I've missed there or is it just a typo or have I read it incorrectly?

2442             Page 8 again, 90 per cent repatriation; but page 19, 70 per cent.  Maybe you can just tell us what number you ‑‑

2443             MR. BYRNES:  Certainly.  I think the 90 per cent was our analysis of looking at al the ‑‑ that was actually the amount of out‑of‑market tuning that's going on, as evidenced by the BBM.  And so I think that 90 per cent figure is the out‑of‑market tuning, which we are fairly confident are the available audience.

2444             The 70 per cent figure, if I'm not mistaken, comes from the Solutions Research study, which actually talked about a sample size of 18 to 64 year olds and we asked all those people if they would ‑‑ you know, how many of those people would tune a local radio station in Woodstock and I believe the figure was 73 per cent that said they would try it.

2445             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, that's a good explanation, but if you want to look at it later and you want to add anything to it you'll have a reply stage later and you're certainly invited to look at it again and make sure that that's the answer you want to leave us with.

2446             MR. BYRNES:  Thank you, Commissioner.

2447             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I want to move now to spoken word which is, of course, a big part of the focus of your application.  News, weather, sports, cameras on the 401.

2448             You said this morning a total of 11 hours and 18 minutes, but I just want to make sure I get the facts on how that breaks down and what the pieces and the parts are.

2449             As I understand it from your application itself, the news, what we would call news, is 4.5 hours per week.  Is that still the number?

2450             MR. BYRNES:  Well, Commissioner, that information was filed eighteen months ago.

2451             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Sure.

2452             MR. BYRNES:  And through that period of time we've looked at everything again closely and when we really sit down and actually add up the numbers it's really over five hours.

2453             We want to broadcast 66 newscasts each week and that will amount to 5 hours 25, to be exact.

2454             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  5 25 rather than 4.5.  Can we break that down a little? You said this morning that 70 per cent of that would be local.  I don't have a calculator with me and ... Commissioner Cram is really good at arithmetic, but I'm not.

2455             So can you break that down in terms of hours and minutes?  70 per cent ‑‑ that's 70 per cent, I guess, of the 5.25 hours; is that right?

2456             MR. BYRNES:  We talked about the content of the news being 70 per cent local.

2457             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Right.

2458             MR. BYRNES:  So the goal is that if you listen to the radio station and the radio station broadcast ten news stories in the 7 a.m. hour seven of those would be local stories.

2459             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.

2460             MR. BYRNES:  So there's part of the local.

2461             One thing that obviously we will do is provide local weather, local traffic, local sports results, and so it's very quickly going to get us to that 70 per cent local.

2462             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Maybe I should go back to the 5.25 hours and I just want to make sure I'm clear on that.  Is that news or is that news, weather, sports, announcements?

2463             MR. BYRNES:  That is news, weather sports and traffic.

2464             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And traffic, okay.  That's the package.  And about 70 per cent of that overall will be local.

2465             MR. BYRNES:  Yes, sir.

2466             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So what will the other 30 per cent be?  National and international or do we get into something called regional then or something?

2467             MR. BYRNES:  Well, the way we have looked at it is that 15 per cent of the news stories would be national and 15 per cent would be provincial or regional.

2468             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So if the Third World War breaks out what happens?

2469             MR. MARRATTO:  What we're talking about here, obviously, Mr. Commissioner, is averages and if the Third World War breaks out or another war in Iraq or something, obviously it will take precedence over everything else and what in fact is a national story becomes a local story at that point because it affects everybody in their home.  So, yes, these are averages.

2470             Just to correct one thing, because I know you're writing things down and being very precise.  It's actually 5 hours and 20 minutes.  We misspoke and said 5 25, but it's 5 hours and 20 minutes.

2471             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  All right.  Thank you for that.

2472             MR. MARRATTO:  You're welcome.

2473             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So, in other words, you're not locked into a non‑international format, but just in general terms, then, I gather these 70, 15, 15, are fairly general or that we're to take this with a bit of a grain of salt and there may be some leverage, but this is to give us the profile of an average week or month or something; is that it?

2474             MR. MARRATTO:  Correct.

2475             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thanks very much.

2476             Now, I just want to get back to the bigger number of 66 newscasts and you did throw some light on that this morning in your opening remarks, but could you just take us through exactly when on weekdays and when on weekends this will run and how long each break would be?

2477             MR. BYRNES:  Absolutely.  And we would be happy to file a spreadsheet with the officers at the end of the hearing.

2478             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That would be excellent.  If you could do that then you can speak more generally now and if you could file something that would be wonderful.

2479             MR. BYRNES:  Certainly.  I'll give you an example.  I mean, we intend to run news on the hour and half hour through morning drive, in the midday periods and then once again half hour through afternoon drive periods.

2480             So 12 newscasts per day Monday to Friday and then three per day on Saturday and three per day on Sunday.

2481             Average duration of news on the top of the hour will be three minutes with one minute of sports, 30 seconds for weather and then appropriate traffic information after that.

2482             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Sorry, is that three minutes in total, so ‑‑ and then we break it down into ‑‑

2483             MR. BYRNES:  No, it's it ‑‑

2484             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ‑‑ or is it four and a half?

2485             MR. BYRNES:  That would be four and a half.  Three minutes of news, a minute of sport, half a minute of weather.

2486             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thanks very much.  And in sports will your emphasize also be local.

2487             MR. BYRNES:  Absolutely.

2488             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Local sports teams?

2489             MR. BYRNES:  Yes, absolutely.

2490             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thanks very much.

2491             Some of your other shows focus on Woodstock.  You speak about having four community‑focused features a day.  Can you give me kind of a breakdown on those as well, length and time and whether it's on on the weekends, that sort of thing.

2492             MR. BYRNES:  Certainly.  "Focus on Woodstock" is something we're very excited about.  It gives us the opportunity to billboard some of the great things going on in the community.  As Brad mentioned in his verbal presentation, you'll hear that four times a day running at approximately a minute apiece.

2493             The listener feedback line that was also mentioned by Brad will air at least four times a day over the seven‑day week.  And also the local interviews and the community cut‑ins that you'll hear on the radio station.

2494             Our desire here is to have a truly local radio station.  As we mentioned earlier, there will be no ‑‑ you know, we're not affiliated with other radio stations.  This will be content that's all generated at our radio station.

2495             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And four times a day, thank you for that.  Go back again.  I'm really just collecting facts here.  Sorry to be a bit pedantic, but it really helps us to measure this in the end, to have a very, very clear idea of the product itself.

2496             "Focus on Woodstock" four times a day, one minute.  What sort of subject?  What might I hear typically in a "Focus on Woodstock"?

2497             MR. MARRATTO:  What probably you would hear would be outstanding events that had happened, maybe performances or achievements.  You might hear some historical information.  There's a young lady who Brad is familiar with who used to work for us at the radio station in Woodstock just a few years ago who has let it be known that she would make herself available to produce these features again.

2498             She does historical things on, you know, famous people and events that took place in Woodstock over the years.  The first hanging that ever occurred in Woodstock and various other things of that nature.

2499             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  The mayor is starting to look at you sideways again.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

2500             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You've got a very Gothic turn of phrase.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

2501             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You stick with radio; he'll stick with politics.

2502             And the listener feedback, how will that work?  It's not a phone‑in show, so I gather it's something you're getting in the can, as it were, ahead of time.

2503             MR. MARRATTO:  If I could best explain it, perhaps, and I'm going to steal it from somebody else now.

2504             I mean, Citytv does a great job of this visually and it's the kind of thing we'll do from an audio standpoint.  You know, we'll provide a forum for people to call in and air their beef or their complaint about the mayor or about whatever else is happening in the city, right, and we'll ‑‑ of course we will have to necessarily edit in, but then we'll present those bits throughout our day.

2505             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You must buy a great lunch because you ... otherwise this is a tough relationship.

2506             Okay.  So people show up at the kind of Speakers Corner or whatever it is and they air their opinions and then you pick them and play them.

2507             And then the local cut‑ins, as you called them, just give me a little more information on those.

2508             MR. BYRNES:  Well, that's really the community cut‑ins.  That's where we have our station vehicle going out to events.

2509             Brad can certainly talk to some of the great events that the city is already involved with and one of the big challenges is actually getting that information out, giving people reasons to attend those events, and so we see that as being a very important part of our community commitment, is to have that vehicle on the road and doing live cut‑ins to the radio station, you know, talking about Cowapalooza or something like that.

2510             Brad, do you want to give a couple of examples?

2511             MR. JANSSEN:  This past weekend we just hosted a world‑class fastball tournament attracting six of the top‑ten teams in the world. Woodstock has traditionally been a hotbed for fastball.  We attracted probably 4 to 5,000 people.

2512             And to have the immediacy of a radio station on site promoting the event ‑‑ we brought in a lot of community service groups, provided opportunities for other ball teams to generate revenues for their cases and their teams and community service groups.

2513             It look a lot of volunteers and to have the immediacy of getting the word out to the community provides a better opportunity for everybody for the bottom line.

2514             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So is that the sort of thing that if the ‑‑ if the fastball tournament or the Alzheimer fund‑raiser or the Terry Fox Run or whatever were happening on a Saturday morning, Friday afternoon you would just simply cut into the local programming and you would be on‑site and so that the normal local programming would be altered by your presence with the van on site?  Is that how it would work?

2515             MR. BYRNES:  Well, we see that actually as an important part of the programming, Commissioner.

2516             You know, one of the criticisms of radio these past few years is they have become bits of jukeboxes and so we think this is very, very important, to be reflective of the community, and we can still do that and still play, you know, our 40 per cent Cancon and all those things, but it's the local feeling that when you listen to this radio station it isn't going to sound like a radio station out of London or out of Kitchener.

2517             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I wasn't being judgmental.  I really was simply trying to understand how it would work, you know, just physically or what we would hear.

2518             So I would be listening to my normal perhaps Saturday morning show, is that it ‑‑ tell me if I'm wrong on this ‑‑ and then, Brad, you would be in the van at the Alzheimer fund‑raiser or whatever and we would get some input from you?  Is that how it would work?

2519             MR. JANSSEN:  Yes, Mr. Commissioner.  It's been my experience that, having worked with Gord before, that the popularity of the radio station was predicated on its visibility within the community and not only would they be on site promoting this charity barbecue or a car wash or things such as that and doing cut‑ins, it would probably be prepromoted in that sense as well and it's just a feel‑good type thing, that the station goes care, they're out there glad handing, maybe doing some sampling and things such as that, but it really does create a buzz within the community when they see a community cruiser with the lights flashing, some signages, things such as that.

2520             MR. MARRATTO:  Can I just add one thing to maybe answer your question a little more clearly.

2521             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Absolutely.

2522             MR. MARRATTO:  You said what would it sound like to me as the listener and what in fact it would sound like is after a piece of music had played, instead of the announcer at 10:20 in the morning talking about some other thing or what's coming up next or whatever, that announcer would flip it over to Brad Janssen in the community cruiser and he would give a report on what's happening at the Terry Fox Run or whatever other event it is.

2523             So you would hear it integrated into the programming and it would be your information source, your enrichment material, you know.

2524             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Do you anticipate doing more extensive remote, so that maybe you would move the whole kit 'n caboodle out to the shopping centre for the Snowsuit Fund pre‑Christmas charity drive or that sort of thing?

2525             MR. MARRATTO:  Well, specifically, you know, a radio station deals with its commercial remotes that are paid for by the commercial host, whoever that happens to be, the box store mall or whatever, and then we do the ones that are just for information and just for the service of the community that may not necessarily be sponsored by an advertiser and those are just instead of the announcer, as I say, speaking from the studio you're going to get your information from the person in that community cruiser at whatever event it is that he's covering.

2526             So but, yes, we will be doing remotes as such, commercial and non‑commercial remotes.

2527             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Seems to me, then, I'm only guessing, but it seems to me you may be underselling yourself as a local voice.  I mean, it may be that there's a lot more to you locally than even your very enthusiastic application and supplementary briefs say.

2528             Have you tried to put some kind of time factor on just how much Woodstock you'll be bringing these people through this sort of cut‑in and remote type of activity?

2529             MR. MARRATTO:  Well, in our application we tried to present to you the minimum that we would provide.

2530             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes.

2531             MR. MARRATTO:  Because anything else is ‑‑ you know, it's like a forecast financial statement, it only becomes real when you actually can put the stamp on it.

2532             So in fact, yes, you are right.  I mean, I suppose we could have sat here and guessed what we might do in terms of these other local events and these other happenings, but we felt if safest to tell you that this is the minimum that we will do. We'll have lots of other local involvement in our community, because we are experienced broadcasters.

2533             I think that's something that we bring with us.  We're not only experienced broadcasters, but, boy, we have had experience in Woodstock.  So I think we know how to address the events and things that happen in Woodstock and I think we also know how to react and respond to the specific people of Oxford County.

2534             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Using the definition of "local" in the sense of overcall local programming, your weekly programming, is it safe to assume, then, that a hundred percent of what comes out of your station will be local?

2535             MR. MARRATTO:  Very definitely, sir.  We will be producing nothing anywhere else.

2536             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  Now, let's talk about "local" in a more colloquial sense.

2537             You're a hundred percent local under our terms.  You've got an awful lot of local here that you've described today and enthusiastically described in your supplementary brief and your opening remarks and you've said repeatedly that local has fled Woodstock, that it's just not there anymore.

2538             I mean, how much are we hearing on CKDK‑FM and on the much smaller CJFH‑FM, the Christian station.  How much local does one hear?

2539             Maybe the mayor wants to answer this or maybe one of you do.  Anyway, you can answer it as you like, but when we really get down to it, if I'm sitting there in the kitchen baking brownies for three or four hours and I'm listening to these stations, one or both of them somehow, how much reference to Woodstock am I actually getting?

2540             MR. MARRATTO:  I think we'll let the mayor answer that.  He's there every day.

2541             MR. HARDING:  None.  Just none. They've never made a call, never shown up at a County Council meeting, never shown up at City Council, never done an interview and every time they say something it's long after the fact.

2542             So I can say from my own personal experience, I can't say that I've listened to all their content, but I know what would demonstrate for me an interest in truly a local licence and it hasn't happened.

2543             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  What about things like weather and a little bit of local news, a little bit of local sports, anything like that?

2544             MR. MARRATTO:  From our monitors of the station that is licensed there now, CKDK‑FM, they have since they made some changes in the last few months, they are now acknowledging the City of Woodstock with a mention in the weather.  I think once an hour in the mornings they say the Woodstock weather ‑‑ weather in Woodstock, London and so on and they lead off with Woodstock.

2545             And they also, from what I can gather, in the mornings at least one of their newscasts have a Woodstock story, which apparently, to the best of my knowledge, and so I'm not being critical of them, but apparently it's just taken verbatim from the previous night's newspaper.

2546             But that's, for all intents and purposes ‑‑ now, Brad also lives in the community and is a ‑‑ is employed by the City and while he is here as a prospective employee of our company, he is still also able to give you some kind of an objective observation as far as what they do.

2547             Brad, could you speak to that?

2548             MR. JANSSEN:  With regard to community involvement or news?

2549             MR. MARRATTO:  With respect to how local ‑‑ how local ‑‑

2550             MR. JANSSEN:  There's just not the visibility there since everything more or less moved down Highway 2.

2551             It's difficult to make a contact with the organization with regard to soliciting their involvement.  There has been some sponsorship opportunities from my end that I've brought in stations if it fits their demographic, but the communication has certainly been broken down, I find, since they've picked up and moved on.

2552             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You speak in paragraph 27 about your own plans and one of things ‑‑ of your opening remark today and one of the things you mention which, of course, is corroborated by the contour map you filed with us, is that you're going to resist the temptation to move down Highway 2 in any way because your contours, in fact, don't hit the big time, they don't hit London, they don't hit Kitchener, they don't hit Stratford, and that seems to be the case in examining your contour map.

2553             Now, this is a little dicey, so maybe we can just work on this together.  How do we keep you pure of heart and mind?  How do we keep you from pushing that antenna a little higher up the pole or a just tiny bit more power?

2554             And I guess really the only thing I can think of is to impose on you a condition of licence to keep you right where you say you want to be?  Would you object to that?

2555             MR. BYRNES:  Not at all.  We would be very happy to accept that as a condition of licence.  I think one of the benefits that as we talked the streets of Woodstock, that was something that the locals told us very, very loud and clear. They said, "You know what?  We have had one other company come to town and move on us.  Don't do that to us."  And so our commitment to the people of Woodstock is we've shown what our technical parameters are.

2556             Aside from the fact there are some limitations from a technical point of view that would prevent us from doing that, we've made it pretty clear we think that ‑‑ we see our opportunity as doing a great job to serve the people of Woodstock.

2557             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But you've seen the contour maps of some of your competitors in this competitive process and they've managed, some of them, to slide that 5 millimetre ‑‑ whatever, 5 ‑‑

2558             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  .5.

2559             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ‑‑ .5 circle around London and whatnot, so it clearly is technically feasible.

2560             MR. MARRATTO:  Yes, it is.  One of the things that we've done is in our application you'll notice we're proposing a 3 kilowatt transmitter.  I think you'll notice that in some of the other cases you'll see 10 kilowatt transmitters, you'll see towers that are 200 and some‑odd metres high up into the clouds.

2561             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes.

2562             MR. MARRATTO:  We are going with very limited technical capability.

2563             Yes, you're right.  We could go and spend the money and put a 10 kilowatt transmitter in five years from now and find another tower to put our antenna up on, but we wouldn't have this man here now if he wasn't certain that we were going to be local people for as long as we're there.

2564             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And you would have to come to us before you changed things.

2565             MR. MARRATTO:  Exactly.  We know that.

2566             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And you might recall at that time the discussion we're having this morning.

2567             MR. MARRATTO:  Exactly.

2568             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Don't want to sound threatening.  It's just kind of a sense of history I would like you to keep in perspective.

2569             Well, then I guess we move to the last question, last area of questioning that I have and my colleagues may have others and counsel or staff may have others.

2570             But you're going to limit yourself. You're going to retain your purity and your focus and keep the mayor as happy as you can and speak little about tornados, but that really does have an impact on your financial plan.  It's got to.  Because, you know, London is an attractive, big market and there's lots of scope there to sell ads and there's lots of scope to make revenue and you're going to cut yourself voluntarily off from that and I guess I just ‑‑ the general question, and we can do a few specifics, is can you do it with the limited population you have, even keeping in mind the mayor's hope that it will double in the foreseeable future, keeping in mind the limited population base, and keeping in mind that competitors who are now in that market, very experienced broadcasters, lots of savvy, lots of know how, are not just going to roll over and let you eat their lunch, can you make a go of it based on those parameters?

2571             MR. MARRATTO:  Mr. Commissioner, I am quite confident we can.  Even given the restrictions that you put there as ‑‑ let's say the city doesn't grow in population and let's say the Toyota plant doesn't open up and that we're just dealing with todays' population, we're dealing with a city whose retail sales this year will be over 500 million dollars.

2572             Now, we can show you seven or eight cities in Southwestern and Southern Ontario region with retail sales of less than that that have very viable broadcasting stations and we also know that the station that is there now is not taking much out of the marketplace.

2573             Now, you say they won't roll over and play dead and we understand that, but it's ‑‑ you have a tough time being either fish or foul and they broadcast to a niche target group in London and Kitchener, in the bigger cities that doesn't represent very much when you get into a smaller city.  As you can see from the numbers, nine and a half share is what they're dealing with.

2574             So they can't really come into Woodstock and expect to sell a lot of advertising.

2575             So another factor is that I was there in ‑‑ between 1986 and 1991 with an FM station playing AC music and we achieved levels of $950,000 local then, when retail sales were only half of what they are now.

2576             So we have been very conservative of our estimates of projecting what we think we can do.  In fact, we think we can grow real well in the second, third, fourth and fifth year because it's there to be had.

2577             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, conservative maybe and I don't question you, but I do have a question about your projections.

2578             You're staying out of London, you're saying out of the big spots, you're limiting yourself to Woodstock and area, you're limiting yourself to your contour map and yet your prediction is to generate a net income of $589,000 by Year 7 and that's the highest of all of the applicants and some of the other applicants are not limiting themselves. They are going to go into London and bigger cities. So how does that figure?  I mean, I ‑‑

2579             MR. MARRATTO:  Could you repeat that figure?  It seems to me that our projections are for higher than that, but I'm not sure.  Did you say $589,000?

2580             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  By Year 7. Net income.

2581             MR. MARRATTO:  Oh, net income.  I'm sorry.

2582             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Net income of 589,000.  I'm sorry, I should have set "net".  I apologize.

2583             MR. MARRATTO:  No, that's all right.

2584             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  By Year 7.

2585             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  You did.

2586             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I did?  Oh, there you go.  Apparently I did say "net".

2587             MR. MARRATTO:  You probably said it right.  I was mixing up, thinking that you were talking about our sales in that period.

2588             But, no, okay.  You know, we do know that the revenue, the overall revenues that we've projected are there.  Of course it's up to us to operate efficiently and to be able to perform properly, but the revenues that we're projecting, we know they're achievable because we've done it before and we've done the arithmetic this time to figure out how much is spent in advertising out of 500 million in retail sales and we know that there's a pool for radio there of almost two million dollars.

2589             So, I mean, even if we're conservative and say let's leave room for The Hawk to do its share out of Woodstock and Oxford County. Let's leave room for Tillsonburg to do its share.  We can still more than easily reach the figures that we're projecting here.

2590             The reason we've grown our figures quite well over the seven years is because we're holding back the horses in the first year because we know we're going to have to reeducate people.  We know that there's a lot of these people who have not advertised on radio for twelve, fourteen years, since I was there the last time, because the station that's there now either doesn't appeal to them or is charging too high rates or whatever reason, they're not advertising now, so we have to retain them and that's why we've allowed ourselves a little time to grow our revenues.

2591             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So are you going to be charging lower rates than The Hawk?

2592             MR. MARRATTO:  Oh, yes, sir, we will.  We're estimating ‑‑ you can see from our forecast that we're talking about revenues of $40 a minute in the first year, which is average $20 a 30‑second announcement in the Woodstock market and, as I say, when I left there in 1989 we were charging $20, so I don't think we'll have any difficulty starting off at those levels.

2593             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Why do you think you would have to undercut them in a sense if you have this incredibly attractive local package?

2594             MR. MARRATTO:  Because we have to introduce ourselves first.  I mean, we have to let ourselves be know who we are, what we do, what we sound like and we deliver a good product and once we deliver a good product naturally we'll begin to increase our rates, yes.

2595             MR. BYRNES:  And it should also be noted that the radio station CKDK is really charging London rates and we've talked to a number of Woodstock advertisers who simply say they cannot afford to pay London rates to reach Woodstock advertisers, so we are not in the business of undercutting somebody else.  We want to put a realistic package on the streets, but we won't be broadcasting to London, we don't have to charge London rates.

2596             And I think the last point we'd like to make is that, you know, our capital expenditures are realistic.  We've looked at this very carefully.  We've certainly scratched our heads at some of the other proposals.  We're not quite sure how somebody is going to invest $790,000 on the same transmitter site if they're successful.

2597             So we've really sat down and looked at our numbers very carefully and we're very comfortable with them.

2598             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Do you think that you will attract, even without solicitation, advertising from London and Kitchener just because they want to get into your market, they want to remind people that they're out there and they sell cars or they do whatever they do?

2599             MR. MARRATTO:  There is that distinct possibility, sir, and we're not going to turn down an order from those places, but we won't solicit business there.

2600             I think that's the difference.  If someone calls us or if a branch of a company is in Woodstock and says you have to get your approval from Joe Glutz in Kitchener then we'll go and get the approval from Joe Glutz.

2601             But we won't have people over there selling on the street or in London.

2602             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And you say at page 19 in your supplementary brief that you feel 15 per cent of your audience would come from local stations, which again would have an impact on their revenue and an impact on yours.

2603             Can you give me any idea how you come to this conclusion or is it just an experienced guess?

2604             MR. MARRATTO:  Well, to some degree, you know, the conclusion is that when the research was done and we looked at where the audience is coming from, we're not going to take very much from CKDK, because we just aren't going after the same people.  We may take a little from the CKLT people in the Woodstock area, but we don't believe we're going to have any significant effect on local broadcasters.  No one of them is going to be affected by more than 3 share.

2605             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And finally, my last question, you speak so eloquently about this town and the region around it and the power to finance and the kind of anxiousness, almost, they're showing to run to you with bags of money and get advertising on your station.

2606             Is this area so strong right now that it could actually support two stations?  Could we licence two in that market?

2607             MR. MARRATTO:  You mean two in addition to the one that's there now?

2608             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes, you and someone else, say.

2609             MR. MARRATTO:  Well, sir, I mean, that's a decision that I suppose the Commission has to make.

2610             In my estimation there is certainly room for one to be added to what's there now.  Who knows when the city becomes 70,000, if that's what it becomes ten years now, what the case will be.

2611             I think give the population of it now, if we take that template and put it over top of other communities in Southwestern Ontario, it would be pretty ambitious to put two in, but I'm going to let Chris speak to that.

2612             MR. BYRNES:  I think also, Commissioner, it's worth noting ‑‑ and you would have seen, perhaps, in our letter of intervention to the neighbouring station in Tillsonburg ‑‑ that our company made an effort to find another frequency for them to help out their situation and I think that if that was to become acceptable and you were to award the 104.7 frequency and the Tillsonburg radio station the frequency that we found for them, I think we would have no problem with that.

2613             I think that you've noticed that this is perhaps an unusual situation where we have six applicants all chasing the one frequency.

2614             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes.

2615             MR. BYRNES:  We had our technical people look very, very carefully because we anticipated this question.  Is there another frequency that could be available in Woodstock?  And, you know, the best minds came back and said, "Guys, 104.7 is the only frequency for Woodstock.  There is however a frequency that will work for the people in Tillsonburg.

2616             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Which one was that again?  Sorry, refresh my memory, the one that you found for Tillsonburg.

2617             MR. MARRATTO:  I believe it's 107.1 and it's 250 watts.  It would get them about 16 kilometres omni from the Town of Tillsonburg.

2618             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you.

2619             I think those are my questions.  The Chair usually gives you a few minutes to sum up and tell us why you're the berries, but before that there may be other questions.

2620             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, there are.  Thank you.  Commissioner Cram.

2621             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  And I hate to do this.  I'm into numbers.

2622             Thank you for being candid, actually.  At the back of your presentation today you were talking about live to air 77 hours each week. So that's 11 hours a day and the rest will be voice tracked?

2623             MR. BYRNES:  That's a minimum commitment, live to air 77 hours.  That only leaves the evening and overnight periods and we still haven't made our final decision as to exactly how that will be dealt with.

2624             Our feeling at this point is that that will be produced locally inside the radio station in the early evening and voice tracked by one of our staff.  But our commitment is definitely 77 hours live.

2625             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Minimum, yes.

2626             MR. BYRNES:  Minimum.

2627             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So What are those hours.  Seven in the morning until six at night or something like that?

2628             MR. MARRATTO:  No, that works out to six in the morning until seven at night is 13 hours times five is 65 and then six hours each day on Saturday and Sunday.  The six hours likely being from ten in the morning until four in the afternoon, the midday portion.

2629             People, the habits are different on Saturday and Sunday.  People get up a little later, so your real morning show is more like ten o'clock in the morning.

2630             So we would do that live on Saturday and Sunday and track ‑‑ voice track the early morning and the late evening.

2631             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And what if a Tornado happens outside of that time?

2632             MR. MARRATTO:  Well, you can believe that we'll have ‑‑ that place will be manned all the time.  We'll have somebody there.  That's the one advantage.

2633             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Oh, making sure the buttons are turned or whatever.

2634             MR. MARRATTO:  Making sure there's a voice that can pick up information and get it out to the people and tell them "Get out of your homes or do whatever you have to do.  There's tornados coming."  You know, we'll make sure that we don't miss anything.

2635             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  And the 40 per cent Cancon is the regulatory broadcast week that you were talking about.

2636             MR. BYRNES:  Yes, it is.

2637             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

2638             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Vice‑Chair French.

2639             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Mr. Mayor, are you hear representing the Council and the City of Woodstock?

2640             MR. HARDING:  The City of Woodstock passed a resolution supporting this application.

2641             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Thank you.

2642             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank you.

2643             Those are our questions.  We'll break now for 15 minutes.  Unless you do want to ‑‑ you do want to summarize and I would be remiss in not allowing you to do that, so go ahead, Mr. Byrnes.

2644             MR. BYRNES:  Thank you, Commissioner.

2645             This is, I suppose, our opportunity in closing to give some reasons why we feel strongly our application should be approved.

2646             I'm going to say a few things and then pass it over to my business partner Gord Marratto to finish.

2647             Firstly we're a new entrant in the broadcast industry and will be a distinctive new voice in Woodstock.

2648             The radio station will offer relevant news, weather, sport and community programming.

2649             We received over 400 individual quality letters of support for this application from the Woodstock area, so we feel the community has certainly spoken and supported our application.

2650             $105,000 in distinct, direct initiatives to Canada talent development over the term of the licence we feel is a benefit.  40 per cent Cancon, Canadian content over the broadcast week and live to air 77 hours each.

2651             We promise to be active in the community, offering community access to the station through interviews, public service announcements and local programming.

2652             And as Brad mentioned earlier, we'll implement a community advisor committee to assist the radio station to better reflect the community issues.  Gord?

2653             MR. MARRATTO:  There will, of course, be five hours and 20 minutes per week of news and in total more than 11 hours weekly of news and spoken word content.

2654             I believe we've demonstrated the market can sustain and additional commercial radio service.  There will be minimal impact on existing licensees in surrounding areas, including Corus and Tillsonburg.

2655             Approval will add to the economic growth of Woodstock with 13 full‑time and 3 part‑time employees living and working in the city.

2656             Byrnes has previous broadcast management experience in Woodstock and has the financial capacity to implement this proposal and we sincerely believe the proposal will be the best fit for Woodstock.

2657             I think in closing here that our company is uniquely qualified to be the best operator of a radio station in Woodstock.  We're local people with grassroots in the community and with a commitment to do an excellent job of building a fine radio station.  We have been there before, built a good radio station that the community appreciated, and we can do it again.

2658             We understand the needs and wants of the people living in the area as well as the expectations they have.

2659             We're prepared to turn up our sleeves and give the community what it needs to the very best of our ability and that's our promise to the Commission and the people of Woodstock.

2660             Thank you very much.  And the mayor would just like to say one little bit here, so hold on.

2661             MR. HARDING:  I feel compelled to talk about the weather.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

2662             MR. HARDING:  We are surrounded in the City of Woodstock by a thriving agricultural community for whom the weather is a natural phenomenon, unlike when I was growing up in the City of Toronto, that it was an inconvenience.

2663             It does produce a hardy people who are not easily intimidated by the elements and I can tell you that it also produces a highly‑prized, highly‑motivated workforce which our city benefits. That's it.

2664             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, very much, gentlemen.  We will now break for 15 minutes.  Nous reprendrons dans 15 minutes.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1050 / Suspension à 1050

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1107 / Reprise à 1107

2665             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

2666             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

2667             We will now proceed with item 3 on the agenda, which is an application by Standard Radio Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language commercial radio programming undertaking in Woodstock.

2668             The new station would operate on frequency 104.7 megahertz, channel 284B, with an average effected radiated power of 2,630 watts.

2669             Mr. Braden Doerr will introduce his colleagues.

2670             You have 20 minutes for your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRESENTATION

2671             MR. DOERR:  Thank you.

2672             Good morning, Mr. Chairman, and members of the Commission. My name is Braden Doerr and I am the vice‑president and general manager of Standard's radio stations in London, Ontario.

2673             Before we begin, I would like to introduce you to the members of our team, who have all played a key role in developing our application for a new FM radio station in Woodstock.

2674             To my right is Kim Woodbridge, the morning news anchor on Standard's country station, BX 93 in London.  Kim has covered the Woodstock area since 1999 when she joined Standard as a reporter and will be the news director at our new station if our application is approved.

2675             To Kim's right and at a table all of his own is a Dan MacGillivray, the general sales manager of our London cluster.  Dan has twenty years of experience in retail radio sales.

2676             To my left is Karen Steele, the assistant program director and promotions director MIX 99.9 in Toronto.

2677             Karen also served as the assistant program director and the promotions director for Woodstock's Energy 103.9 during the late 1990's.  She will be responsible for programming our new station if our application is approved.

2678             To Karen's left is Jennifer McLellan, finance manager and controller at Standard's London radio stations.  Jennifer obtained her CGA designation in October of 2004 after joining us three years earlier.

2679             In the row behind me on the far right is Ryan Ford.  Ryan is a Woodstock native and for four years has been a guitarist and songwriter with The Weekend, a Canadian modern rock band.

2680             Ryan has toured with The Weekend across Canada, the U.S., Japan, Australia and Indonesia.  The Weekend's latest album, "Beatbox My Heartbeat," was released last February.  Ryan has agreed to serve as a music consultant at our new station if our application is approved.

2681             Beside Ryan is Gary Slaight, president and chief executive officer of Standard Radio Inc.

2682             It's been a great year for Gary. He recently received CAB's Outstanding Community Service by an Individual Broadcaster Award and he was also inducted into the Music Industry Hall of Fame.

2683             To Gary's left is John Yerxa, the president and CEO of John Yerxa Research Inc, who was commissioned by Standard to conduct audience and format research in the Woodstock market.

2684             John has been conducting independent market research studies since the mid‑1980s and has an extensive knowledge of the Canadian radio market.

2685             Finally, to John's left is Stuart Hahn, who is with Elder Engineering, the engineering firm that created the technical brief for our radio application.

2686             So that is our team, which has been working at making 104.7 The Zone a reality since the fall of last year.

2687             And we would now like to begin our presentation.

2688             Mr. Chair and members of the Commission, we are very excited to be here today to apply for a new modern rock FM radio station for Woodstock to be called The Zone.

2689             There is an incredible demand for this format and an explosion of interest in modern rock in Woodstock.

2690             Our research was extensive and thorough and we were the only one that asked the question what does the market really want?  The results came back overwhelmingly in favour of modern rock format for this market.

2691             Our application meets the needs of underserved local listeners and the extensive pent‑up demand of local advertisers for a new Woodstock radio station that targets the 18 to 34 demographic.

2692             Woodstock is a very youthful market with 62 per cent of the people under the age of 44.

2693             In addition, of all the applications before you at this hearing, Standard's is the one that will do the most for new and emerging Canadian talent through our 40 per cent Canadian content proposal and our significant Canadian talent development package.

2694             The City of Woodstock very much needs and wants a new local radio station.  There's currently only one private commercial radio station licensed to serve this market.  The area is also presently saturated with a wide range of out‑of‑market mainstream radio stations that provide very little, if any, programming that is reflective of the local Woodstock region.

2695             If approved, our application will provide a level of local service commensurate with the needs of this rapidly growing community.

2696             Standard is a family‑owned and operated business and a leading Canadian broadcaster. With 51 radio stations in seven provinces we have a long history of public and community service.  We also fully understand the importance of local radio in smaller communities.

2697             In preparing our application Standard listened to the needs expressed by many members of the Woodstock community for a radio station that will provide a strong and consistent focus on Woodstock.

2698             We also closely analysed the Woodstock economy and we commissioned extensive research.  Based on our research we developed an application that will make a significant contribution to Canadian artists, the Canadian broadcasting system and the residents of the Woodstock region.

2699             I will now ask others members of our team to speak to their areas of the expertise concerning or application, beginning to John Yerxa, who will speak to you about why we chose this particular format.

2700             MR. YERXA:  Thank you, Braden.

2701             Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission, John Yerxa Research carried out an extensive audience survey for Standard Radio in the Woodstock CMA in December of 2004.

2702             The purpose of the study was to identify among radio listeners between 18 to 54 years of age the most appropriate format for a new station to serve the Woodstock area.

2703             We also sought to determine how satisfied these listeners were with the amount of local information currently being provided on the local radio dial.

2704             Our research shows that there is strong listener demand for modern rock amongst Woodstock radio listeners.  81 per cent of 18 to 29 year olds say they would listen to the format.

2705             Amongst 30 to 39 year olds that percentage is 74 per cent.

2706             Modern rock easily ranks number one within the 18 to 29 age cell along with strong support amongst 30 to 39 year olds as well.

2707             In addition, our research demonstrated a significantly high level of dissatisfaction with the amount of local information currently provided on the radio in Woodstock.

2708             24 per cent stated that they were not satisfied with the amount of local information currently provided.  Moreover, almost seven out of ten respondents replied "yes" to the question "Would you be interested in hearing more news, weather traffic and community information concerning the Woodstock region?"

2709             Standard's new station will also have minimal impact on Woodstock's existing classic rock station that targets males 35 plus.

2710             We project that our new Woodstock station will attain a 13 per cent market share of tuning at launch and grow at a rate of 3 to 5 per cent thereafter and will specifically focus on the 18 to 34 audience.

2711             The Zone will also repatriate a large number of listeners to Woodstock radio.

2712             Given these results we believe a well‑executed modern rock station would dominate 18 to 34 listening in the Woodstock area by attracting new listeners and the broadcast of local information will be essential to the station's long‑term success.

2713             In light of these findings we concluded that there is a significant opportunity for a new modern rock station in Woodstock, Ontario.

2714             Dan MacGillivray will now speak to you about sales and the Woodstock market.

2715             MR. MacGILLIVRAY:  Thank you, John.

2716             Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, for the past 20 years I have been selling radio advertising and managing sales department in Southwestern, Ontario.

2717             I've also watched with great interest the excelling job that the Woodstock City Council has done over the past few years in attracting new businesses and industry to their city.

2718             Our research and experience show that this market is very strong and can very much support the licensing of a new commercial FM radio station.

2719             The past few years have seen important economic growth in the Woodstock area. Retail spending, population growth, building permits, and new business licences show steady increases year over year.

2720             Our revenue estimates are driven by a plan consisting of four key points.  We looked at extensive research, we surveyed key national advertisers to assess demand and through our experience in selling local advertising we gauged local advertiser acceptance and, finally, relied on Standard's proven expertise in developing small market radio revenues.

2721             In preparing our application we also identified a number of key advertising categories that would be served well by a modern rock radio station.  These include consumer electronics, automobile, beer, fast food, movie theatres, video stores and the automobile aftermarket.

2722             Our revenue projections are conservative, realistic and achievable in Woodstock.

2723             This is a strong, vibrant and growing region.  I'm certain that this market can support a new FM modern rock radio station with minimal impact on the existing FM service in Woodstock.

2724             I will now ask Karen Steele to talk to you about what listeners can expect to hear on The Zone.

2725             MS STEELE:  Thank you, Dan.

2726             Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, I am extremely pleased to have this opportunity to you today about modern rock, which is currently one of the most exciting formats in the country.

2727             The programming of The Zone will be unique to the Woodstock market.  At present no other station in the area programs pure modern rock.

2728             With our commitment to broadcasting no less than 40 per cent Canadian content we'll have the opportunity to break Canadian acts.  We are also very committed to give much‑needed on‑ and off‑air opportunities to Woodstock and regional musicians.

2729             Superstar Canadian artists that will be heard on The Zone will include Simple Plan, Sum 41, The Tea Party, Nickelback, Our Lady Peace, Billy Talent and Three Days Grace.

2730             Emerging artists in the format include dozens and dozens of Canadian bands and artists, such as Death from Above 1979, The Waking Eyes, Hot Hot Heat and The Dears.

2731             These are impressive lists, which is why we're more than comfortable with our 40 per cent Canadian content commitment.

2732             In order to ensure that the radio station remains in touch with the ever‑changing local music scene an advisory board will be formed to provide ongoing feedback and direction to station programming.

2733             Media coverage of the modern rock format is at an all‑time high.  The February 2005 edition of Spin Magazine featured 14 Canadian acts in a major story entitled "Montreal, The Next Big Scene."  The Canadian artists featured in the story include The Dears, The Sam Roberts Band, Stars and The Arcade Fire, who will occupy a significant place in our music library.

2734             Time Magazine also recently featured an article on Canadian modern rock.  In its April 4th issue it featured The Arcade Fire on the cover and did a story called "Canada's Most Intriguing Rock Band".  We have attached a copy of that article with the materials that we distributed to you this morning.

2735             Modern rock artists also did very well at this year's Juno award.  The Best New Group award went to ‑‑ my brother's band ‑‑ Alexisonfire, a Canadian modern rock band, and the Best New Group award was Billy Talent, also a Canadian modern rock band.

2736             With us today is Ryan Ford, a local modern rock musician, who will talk to you about the modern rock music scene in the Woodstock area.

2737             MR. FORD:  Thank you, Karen.

2738             I met Braden and he asked me to check out The Zone's website so see what I thought about a modern rock station in my hometown.  I looked at it and also at Standard's website and then e‑mailed him to say it was an awesome idea.

2739             The station is willing to support a lot of local area acts, something that isn't happening with the stations we have now.

2740             It's pretty much impossible for local bands ‑‑ and there are a lot of them ‑‑ to get any attention around Woodstock.

2741             The Woodstock station programs older classic rock and the other London rock station doesn't play much independent material at all.

2742             There's also a really big following for modern rock in Woodstock.  When the local bands and other modern rock bands perform they get a really good turnout.  This can improve with a local outlet for this type of music.

2743             I think this is just what Woodstock needs.  There are a lot of younger musicians in the city who are looking for help.  Some of them have stopped listening to radio altogether because it sounds the same to them and having a station like The Zone will certainly change that.

2744             We have to get the bands out of the basements and develop their talent.

2745             I also think that The Zone's Canadian talent development programs, like the Live Concert Series and Zone Home Grown, will be great for local modern rock bands and for modern rock fans in my hometown.

2746             Karen will now talk to you about Standard's Canadian talent development proposal.

2747             MS STEELE:  Standard has proposed significant benefits for the development of Canadian talent in the amount of $500,000 over the seven year licence term.

2748             The two key components of our benefits package are our Live Concert Series and our Zone Home Grown competition.

2749             The Live Concert Series will present an evening of local Woodstock bands that have been requested stage time from The Zone.  The shows will be broadcast live on our station and each band will be given a hundred CD copies of their performance to distribute to the music industry.

2750             The Live Concert Series will be staged twice a year in the first two years of the station's licence and three times a year thereafter.

2751             Zone Home Grown will be an annual competition featuring recordings submitted by local acts.  The top act will receive $10,000 and a compilation CD will be produced, pressed and distributed throughout Ontario.

2752             Other initiatives include Woodstock North, a live summer music festival, a designated group scholarship program for Fanshawe College's Music Industry Arts program, as well as support the FACTOR and Canadian Music Week.

2753             Our non‑cash benefits for Canadian talent will consist of $350,000 over seven years for a national free ad plan which runs commercials promoting new Canadian CDs.

2754             I'm very enthusiastic about the opportunity of programming The Zone and our extensive benefits package.

2755             Our research tells us that Woodstock desperately wants and needs a new modern rock station based in the city and that provides information of local importance.

2756             MR. DOERR:  Thank you, Karen.

2757             Standard recognizes that The Zone will be given a major opportunity to become an active leader in improving life in Woodstock if our application is approved.

2758             This philosophy will be executed in a number of public service initiatives.  Standard's PSA program will open The Zone's studios to community groups interested in producing their own public service announcements.  Our production staff will supervise this program to ensure the best possible quality at no cost to the participants.

2759             A minimum of four PSA commercials will be broadcast daily 365 days a year.  The estimated value of this campaign is $50,000 annually.

2760             Each year Standard radio stations across the country raise money to support local charities.  In 2005, Standard raised over seven million dollars to assist local hospitals in each of the markets we serve.  This year Standard Radio Toronto made fund‑raising history in support of the Hospital for Sick Children with a world record amount of 3.2 million dollars donated during the Have a Heart for Sick Kids radiothon.

2761             In late April of this year the 6th annual standard London radiothon for children raised nearly $450,000 for the Children's Health Foundation bringing the total donation since the radiothon's inception in 2000 to over 1.7 million dollars.

2762             The Children's Health Foundation is part of the Children's Hospital of Western Ontario and is dedicated to raising funds to support specialized health care and research for children and youth.

2763             We will make similar efforts with the Woodstock General Hospital as they work towards raising the 90 million dollars needed to pay for the building of their new facility in the city.

2764             Along with developing Canadian talent and our community involvement news is going to be a key part of Standard's service.  The Zone's news director will be Kim Woodbridge and she would like to talk to you about that.

2765             MS WOODBRIDGE:  Thank you, Braden.

2766             Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, our application offers an opportunity for diversity in the market and we'll bring a dedicated news voice to the region.

2767             With the availability of information from so many media sources, our focus will be on local news, with a goal of 70 per cent local stories.

2768             The Woodstock market is blanketed by 17 BBM‑rated radio signals yet there's very little local news and information available on radio in this area.  We've heard from local officials, such as the Chief of the Oxford County Police Services and the Development Commissioner for the City of Woodstock about the difficulties they face in providing quick and accurate broadcasts of critical information such as missing persons, school cancellations, power outages, bus delays and road closures.

2769             We would like to address these issues.  Our news programming plans include 61 live newscasts each week and a total of four hours per week of news content.

2770             Our new centre will provide traffic and road information, sports, weather, business reports and entertainment highlights.

2771             Coverage is also planned for City and County Council meetings, local school board meetings and the Oxford Board of Health meetings.

2772             Staffing of our new centre will consist of two full‑time reporters, one part‑time reporter and myself.  Our news team will provide a level of local service that the Woodstock community has not seen for many years.

2773             By awarding this new licence to Standard the Commission will be giving radio listeners a reliable local news option delivered by a team of the most experienced and best news people in the business.

2774             Jennifer McLellan will now talk to you about our human resources practices.

2775             MS. McLELLAN:  Thank you, Kim.

2776             Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, I'm excited to be associated with Standard Radio Inc., an organization that while large in a national sense operates the London stations in an independent entrepreneurial manner with respect to operations and managing resources, particularly our human resources, the lifeblood of our stations.

2777             Standard is committed to its diversity plan, which is very specific.  It has six key points encompassing recruitment, selection and hiring, training and development, promotion, retention, accommodation and restructuring.

2778             Each of these areas has defined procedures and policies to follow during the course of the plan.  We will implement these policies in Woodstock and plan to work with all members of the community to ensure our workforce is representative of the public we serve.

2779             I would now like to hand the floor back over to Braden Doerr.

2780             MR. DOERR:  Thank you, Jennifer.

2781             Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, we have presented what we consider to be a well thought out and strong application.

2782             The key elements of our application are summarized on the easel to my left and are the following:  A new and strong local voice for Woodstock.

2783             The only proposal for new music in this market.

2784             No less than 40 per cent Canadian content broadcast on the station throughout the broadcast week.  This is an unmatched amount at this hearing and was filed in our original application.

2785             A benefits package of no less than $500,000 over seven years for the development of Canadian artistic talent, in addition to $350,000 for our national free ad plan to promote new Canadian CDs.

2786             $350,000 for our community access plan, which provides support for community members for the development and broadcast of public service announcements.

2787             Extensive small market expertise.

2788             Detailed and current news coverage of Woodstock.

2789             And, finally, a realistic and achievable business plan.

2790             In preparing our application we commissioned research in the market, made reasonable assumptions and met with members of the Woodstock community.

2791             We chose a format that was missing in the market, which will have minimal impact on the existing radio station.

2792             We also listened to the concerns of community members, local business people and officials.  In response to their needs we want to create a radio station that will speak to this community on an ongoing and daily basis.

2793             We would like to thank the leaders of the numerous community groups, charitable organization, the recording industry and residents of Woodstock and area for their endorsement and letters of support for our application.

2794             Please allow me to quote from a few of these supportive letters.

2795             First is a quote from Norwich District Optimist Member Sheila Van Ymeren.

                      "After reviewing The Zone's website, their objectives, plans to promote new Canadian artists and musical groups I feel it would be a great asset to have this new industry in Woodstock."

2796             Next is a quote from Derek W. Ross the vice president, national promotions and media relations for EMI Music Canada.

                      "Modern Rock is a format many new artists are discovered from and I feel there is a need for new modern rock stations in Canada, period.  Standard Radio has a strong history that continues today in supporting talent in Canada.  Through the various initiatives The Zone has committed to in the application, the local music community, the Canadian music community and the Woodstock community will benefit greatly."

2797             Finally, this last quote is from Debbie Comuzzi, president and CEO of London's Children's Health Foundation:

                      "It would be the expressed view of CHF that Standard Radio Inc. be awarded the proposed radio station in Woodstock, Ontario.  I know first hand that they would embrace the Woodstock community by becoming an integral part of it and thereby filling a large void that currently exists in the Woodstock radio market."

2798             Woodstock is a growing region that deserves a new radio station.  Standards's proposal will bring a strong commitment to the local community, a new and unique voice to the radio waves and significant benefits for the development of local, regional and Canadian musical talent.

2799             That concludes our remarks.  We appreciate the opportunity to answer any questions you may have about our application.  Thank you very much.

2800             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you. Commissioner Cram.

2801             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you. Good morning and welcome.

2802             MR. DOERR:  Thank you.

2803             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I wanted to start I guess almost philosophically on the issue of local programming and our requirements and your perception of our requirements and, in particular, I guess Mr. Slaight, you've got a copy of your letter about the complaint you made about The Hawk, the follow‑up letter dated October 15th, 2004.

2804             And I quote you ‑‑ and I'm only going to be talking about The Hawk.  You say it appears they're in substantial compliance with our directives.

2805             And the next paragraph you say while very few Woodstock news items were presented during the week, weather reports were frequently described as Hawk and you later commended them for having respected our directives.

2806             You know, of course, that we disagreed with you, that that wasn't local programming, and at the same time that this was happening, you were having your survey done by Mr. Yerxa and there was a significantly high level of dissatisfaction with the amount of local information currently provided on the radio.  That's what you said on page 4 today.

2807             So what is your understanding of what is required by us in the line of local programming and what would meet the community needs?

2808             Let's start with what you believe we require.

2809             MR. DOERR:  Well, I believe that ‑‑ first of all, let me address the letter, if I may, because I have reviewed it.

2810             What Gary said was this ‑‑ first of all, I monitored The Hawk and here's what's happened. They changed their legal ID so it now says they are in Woodstock.

2811             They also added a community‑based public service program that runs several times a day, "What's Happening in Woodstock," they did that.  And they framed their weather forecasts with Woodstock weather.

2812             And, as Gary stated in his letter, that certainly was the case.

2813             However, as he also stated in his letter, in monitoring the station, and as you heard this morning at best there is probably one news story for Woodstock on The Hawk per cast per day and that's a stretch some days.

2814             In our opinion, Standard's opinion, that is not local service and that's one of the reasons we noted a huge void in our research that said people are looking for this type of service.

2815             So part of our component today, as you heard, is a large news component with a large news staff, four hours a week.  That's one part of the community service.

2816             Second part of the community is ‑‑

2817             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No, I'm talking local programming and what our requirements are. Community service is very interesting, but the question was what is your belief what local programming, what our requirements are.

2818             MR. SLAIGHT:  Commissioner Cram, let me just refer to the letter briefly so I can explain.

2819             I think the key word there was "substantial".

2820             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.

2821             MR. SLAIGHT:  And I think what we were indicating was they were doing the bare minimum and I think when you hear from the mayor, which we just heard, that they're barely doing the bare minimum.

2822             So I think we were maybe being kind in this letter, given the two‑year period that they were monitored.  We did see some effort to reflect in very small ways the responsibility in the local marketplace.  Is it enough and is it doing what we think should be done in the marketplace?  Absolutely not.  And I think that's one of the reasons why they're not doing better in the marketplace.

2823             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  Can we get back to my question.

2824             What is your perception of the local programming requirements of the Commission? What does it comprise?

2825             MR. SLAIGHT:  It comprises ‑‑ sorry.

2826             MR. DOERR:  Go ahead, Gary.

2827             MR. SLAIGHT:  You take it.

2828             MR. DOERR:  It comprises service to the community you're licensed to serve on an ongoing and consistent basis.

2829             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And if I take us back to our letter of March 11, '04, which was the previous letter to that one, would you agree it means there should be a mention, an exclusive mention, of the community of service?  In other words, there should be no mention that you're serving another community such as Hamilton; secondly, there should be a focus of news, weather, sports and activities on that community?

2830             MR. DOERR:  I would agree.

2831             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You have to say yes.

2832             MR. DOERR:  I would agree.

2833             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thirdly, that there is a reference to the studio being in situ; in other words, in the community.

2834             And you have to say yes again.

2835             MR. DOERR:  Yes.

2836             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And when we say focus, what do we mean?  Do we mean five per cent, ten percent on that community or what is your belief what we mean by that?

2837             MR. DOERR:  Well, my believe is that if you're licensed to serve a community you should look after and ‑‑ look after that community, period.

2838             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So is one newscast good a week, although initially you said it could have been, Mr. Slaight, what do you think would now be appropriate?

2839             MR. SLAIGHT:  I think you have to ‑‑ people have to work in the community that you're licensed to serve.  I think you have to ‑‑ that most of the information on the radio station has to reflect the local community.  I think you're salespeople should live in the community that you're listened to serve.

2840             And we do small market radio across the country and if you don't reflect the community that you're licensed to serve and you're operating in that community you will not succeed.

2841             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Well, you know, financial success is one thing, but the ‑‑ and I agree that that's the public perception issue, but I'm talking about our minimum requirements.

2842             MR. SLAIGHT:  I also mean succeed in terms of your obligations based on whatever application you had put forward.

2843             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  I notice that you say in I think it's your letter of March 5 and it's not paginated, so I'll have to ...

2844             At page 5, you talk about the majority, primary focus will be on the City of Woodstock and the majority of writing and reporting will be dedicated to topics of local and regional concern.

2845             Would you agree that that would suffice for the requirement that the focus would be on news, weather, sports and activities of the community?

2846             MR. DOERR:  I would.

2847             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And the community of service is the other issue, isn't it, because to be local you have to serve the community of service.

2848             For the purposes of this application, what does that mean to you?

2849             MR. DOERR:  In this application it means Woodstock.

2850             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I would be willing to go as far as Oxford County and Ingersoll Country.

2851             MR. DOERR:  On the periphery, yes.

2852             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.

2853             MR. DOERR:  But the call was for Woodstock, so we framed it that way.

2854             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So at the end of the day your perception of our requirements would be that local ‑‑ there would be a majority of local news, weather, sports activities being from the community of Woodstock, Oxford County and Ingersoll County and that the reference ‑‑ the studio would always be in situ and the reference would always be to be to either the County of Oxford, the County of Ingersoll or Woodstock.

2855             MR. DOERR:  Yes, the local content is 70 per cent local, which we'll talk about.  Yes, the studios and the operation will be in Woodstock. The staff will work out of Woodstock 168 hours a week and the coverage area is primarily Woodstock and Ingersoll on the first level and Oxford County certainly on the second.

2856             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And you know that we're concerned about this issue of local programming.

2857             MR. DOERR:  Yes.

2858             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And you say in your application that your goal is for 70 per cent.

2859             MR. DOERR:  Of local news.

2860             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  And "news" meaning?

2861             MR. DOERR:  "News" meaning news, sports, traffic and weather.

2862             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And so would you consider agreeing to a COL of 50 per cent local programming?

2863             MR. DOERR:  We're talking about the content of newscasts and we're ‑‑ I'm saying to you 70 will be from the area that you and I discussed and you're asking if I would reduce it?  No, I wouldn't.

2864             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No, a COL, though, agree to a condition of licence.

2865             MR. DOERR:  Or 50 or 70?

2866             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  50.  That's what I asked.  I only asked for 50.  I could say 70, but I only ask for 50.

2867             MR. DOERR:  Yes, we would.

2868             MR. SLAIGHT:  Talking an average over a week?

2869             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.

2870             MR. SLAIGHT:  Because there may be days, as the previous group talked about, where there's a huge event of a global nature, which would preclude it on a daily basis, but I think on a weekly basis we would be fine.

2871             MR. DOERR:  Where Saddam Hussein just couldn't fit into local.

2872             MR. SLAIGHT:  No, absolutely.

2873             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We understand that.

2874             MR. DOERR:  Commissioner Cram, I think 50 ‑‑ in this situation for a radio station like this in a market size such as this that is underserved, as we told you, personally I think 50 is low.

2875             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So I undersold the whole thing.

2876             MR. DOERR:  No, but to Gary's point, if you don't look after the community first and foremost in that manner then you're not going to success.

2877             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  So you did say, and you've talked again today, that there was a void in local programming.  What are the voids?

2878             MR. DOERR:  As it exists today?

2879             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.

2880             MR. DOERR:  Well, I think as we heard from Mr. Byrnes this morning, and it's certainly true that from a news coverage point of view there's not virtually any activity in the Woodstock market to start with so the existing licensee is not covering the market.  That became a very evident.

2881             I know in their intervention they talked about their inability to generate revenue out of the market, perhaps not surprising given that Standard believes and we believe that the advertising flows back if you look after the community and that means news, public service, the whole gamut of making sure you're there for the community.

2882             So I'm not ‑‑ I'm not totally surprised at the results of what's going on.

2883             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Now, your contour coverage covers London.

2884             MR. DOERR:  It does.

2885             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And we paranoics on the Commission can't help but think that you'll end up in the same place as CKDK‑FM, especially as you're planning on, it appears, getting about 15 per cent of your revenues from London.

2886             Is this station viable if you don't get any revenue from London?

2887             MR. DOERR:  It is.  But to clarify, we have four licences, as I'm sure you're very aware, in London.

2888             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  We'll be getting to that.

2889             MR. DOERR:  Okay.  Fine.

2890             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Don't worry.

2891             How can we ensure that you would stay loyal or pure to Woodstock?

2892             MR. DOERR:  Because even as we mentioned, that we would take no more than $100,000 or 15 per cent of our total revenue out of London, as we stated in our application.

2893             The bulk of our $850,000, as we had anticipated in year one, comes out of Woodstock, Ingersoll and Oxford County.  The business won't succeed if we don't concentrate on the matter at hand and that's local service.

2894             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You've also talked about an advisory committee?

2895             MR. DOERR:  Correct.

2896             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And what would that do?

2897             MR. DOERR:  Well, it's something that Standard has done across the country.  It taps us into the community so we can get useful feedback to how we're doing and as a new entity in Woodstock it would become doubly important that we would have an advisory committee.

2898             Generally they are set up with no more than 12 members, no less than 8.  We draw from four key areas.  Generally one from the four designated groups, which we would do in the case of Woodstock.  We also go in ask for a post‑secondary person who is teaching in the community.  We would look for a P1 listener who has ‑‑ someone hopefully of Ryan's demo, who embraces the radio station upon our launch and that person would serve on the committee and that would be examples of the type of person that we would ‑‑ we would meet three to four times a year and minutes are kept and we would certainly act on their recommendations.

2899             We do that sort of thing in London right now.

2900             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  That's the last point I wanted to know.  How are we sure it's not that they meet and they discuss things and they think it's wonderful, but nothing happens at the end, there's no sort of implementation of what they would suggest.

2901             MR. DOERR:  Well, the implementation, I guess, is up to us and I found in these advisory boards that after two meetings if you don't show some due consideration to their thoughts and act accordingly within things that you can do, then they don't work and they disband.  And ours live on and that's because we listen to these people.

2902             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  The programming, would it be a hundred per cent local?

2903             MR. DOERR:  It would, from studios in Woodstock.

2904             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And how much live?

2905             MR. DOERR:  We are voice tracked ‑‑ let me talk about live first.  We are live weekdays 6 a.m. to 8 a.m. in the strip Monday to Friday. Saturday and Sunday are mirrored.  We'll be live from 10:00 in the morning ‑‑ 8:00 in the morning through until 2:00 in the afternoon and the total voice track total for the week is 86 hours based on 168 hour full week.

2906             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And the number of hours of spoken word?

2907             MR. DOERR:  There's two components. I'll let Kim maybe expand on the news component. It's 4 hours and 4 minutes across 61 casts a week.

2908             There is another three hours to bring the total for the station to 7 hours.  The three hours are Karen's responsibility and they're tied up in spoken word music program, which maybe she'll speak to, but, Kim, maybe you can talk just a little bit about or news plans.

2909             MS WOODBRIDGE:  Sure, I will, and I'll get specifically into the numbers in just a moment, but I think it's very important to tell you off the top that The Zone's focus will be mainly local.  We are planning to provide 70 per cent local stories from our news centre.

2910             As we have heard time and time again, just this morning from the previous applicant and the mayor himself, as well as through our research and the people we've spoken to in the community, there is a significant void in local news and information programming and that, of course, is our goal, to fill in a void.

2911             We will be covering stories such as the current rubella outbreak in the Norwich County that's affecting hundreds of residents in the area; updating landing the new Toyota assembly plant, which could bring thousands of jobs to the region.

2912             To do this we'll need to create quite a large news team.  It will be made up of myself as news director and morning anchor.  We will also have a full‑time reporter, who will be our afternoon news anchor.  We'll have another full time reporter who will be our weekend newscaster and we'll have a part‑time reporter as well.

2913             I think it's also important to say that our news team will be dedicated to providing a high level of news service to the community.  That's what Standard expects and our company has won numerous news awards over the years, more recently for the 24/7 coverage of the Okanagan wildfires in the B.C. interior.

2914             So this is something that we want to do and we feel we will be able to do through our plans.

2915             As far as the amount of news that we're planning, just over four hours each week, 4 hours and 4 minutes.  61 newscasts, as Braden had mentioned.  We're going to have newscasts nine a day, Monday to Friday from six in the morning until six in the afternoon.  We will do top and bottom hours during the morning drive and then we'll do four, five and six in the afternoon.

2916             On the weekends ‑‑

2917             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I'm sorry, just stop you there.  How long are those ones.

2918             MS. WOODBRIDGE:  They're four minutes in total.

2919             On the weekends ‑‑ as we heard this morning our first competitor is planning to do only three newscasts on the weekends each day.  We feel that news coverage is just as important on the weekends as it is during the weekdays, so we're planning for eight newscasts that will start at seven in the morning until noon.

2920             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And they will be how long?

2921             MS. WOODBRIDGE:  Four minutes as well.

2922             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And when you say "news" you mean news, sports.

2923             MS. WOODBRIDGE:  News, sports, weather and traffic, of course.

2924             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And thank you for your coloured thing to show it exactly.  That's fantastic.

2925             I wanted to talk about the type of news.  Your demo is 18 to 39 males.  What type of news?  Will it be the upbeat ten‑second blips ‑‑ Saddam is dead ‑‑ or arrested ‑‑ you know, it's sunny today?

2926             MS. WOODBRIDGE:  Right.

2927             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Because there is a much larger demographic, you know, in the areas.

2928             MS. WOODBRIDGE:  We obviously will tailor our newscasts to our demographic or we will try to do that in the best of abilities.  We'll also of course be trying to encompass a larger audience as well with our news coverage.

2929             We plan to do that ‑‑ I do that on a daily basis right now working in London for BX 93. We have four radio stations, so we have to tailor each newscast to the specific demographics.

2930             I think it's important to say that just because it is a younger demographic, they do want this news, as our research has shown, and there are specific things that I think specifically would target the area, such as health stories like the rubella outbreak that I mentioned; automotive and technology stories, again the Toyota plant.

2931             Traffic is extremely important as we've heard again numerous times today.  It's an interesting stretch along 401 and 403 corridors in the Woodstock area and there are a number of people in the community who commute to work, so traffic will be a very important area of our news coverage.

2932             And because of the focus of our programming with modern rock, entertainment will also make up a portion of our newscasts, because I think that's of interest to the younger demographic as well.

2933             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  And then the non‑news spoken word.

2934             MR. DOERR:  Karen?

2935             MS STEELE:  Modern rock, the format itself, the listeners are ravenous for new music information, touring information, bios, independent artist information and interviews.

2936             Our listeners are thirsty for knowledge and The Zone will inform that audience. Three hours of spoken word will be made up of independent artists featuring local artists on The Underground Zone program, which will run Monday to Friday 11 to 12 p.m.

2937             Zone Alone, which features a listener‑chosen new independent music in the studio.  At The Zone they will choose their own music and independent music that they want to hear.  That's Saturdays from 7 to 8 p.m.

2938             Budd Radio, which is an independent specialty program Saturdays from 11 to midnight and then there's The Zone Social Scene, which lists what's coming to the area, live events, charity nonprofit events that matter to our community.

2939             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You won't be out in the community talking about the Santa Claus Run or the ... I can't even remember the ‑‑

2940             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Alzheimer.

2941             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  When you lose your memory.  The Alzheimer's.

2942             MS STEELE:  Yes.

2943             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You won't be Extra ‑‑

2944             MS STEELE:  Yes, we will.  The events that matter to our community we will have our personalities out on location and making cut‑ins to the radio station.

2945             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.

2946             MS STEELE:  To say that we're on location.

2947             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  But you're not counting that as a commitment, is that the same as the previous applicant, because they weren't counting it either?

2948             MS STEELE:  No.

2949             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No.  And you raised an issue that I was wondering.  Is all the programming going to be locally produced or is there going to be some syndicated programming or some from your other stations?

2950             MS STEELE:  All of the programming will be locally produced with the exception of the one hour of Budd Radio ‑‑ in our Toronto studies.

2951             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  Moving on to numbers, my favourite.  Here's my calculations. I took your total expenses minus your CTD to arrive at your net expenses.  I then took your programming costs as a percentage of your net expenses and came up with 24.5 per cent.  The provincial average is 31 per cent.  And you're the winner for the lowest of all the applicants.  Is this enough to maintain your commitments?

2952             MR. DOERR:  It is and I think there's a couple of factors here that maybe I can speak to.

2953             One is there's ‑‑ we have an org chart here we would be glad to review with you.

2954             But in a radio station like this, to get it up and running we certainly have a lot of shared responsibilities and I have them here, so, in other words, some of the people in the program ‑‑ programming part of the budget are split off to others, which I would be glad to talk about.  That's one thing.

2955             Secondly we're experienced broadcasters and in a market of size to hit hopefully profitability year 4, which you can see is the goal, quite frankly, we are a very aggressive with our expenses and manage them accordingly, so we don't overspend.  We certainly honour our commitments but we don't waste money working for Gary Slaight.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

2956             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What about ‑‑

2957             THE CHAIRPERSON:  How did you punctuate that one?

2958             MR. SLAIGHT:  I'm sorry.

2959             THE CHAIRPERSON:  How did you punctuate that?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

2960             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What about synergies with the London station?

2961             MR. DOERR:  I don't see too many. To get us going we would use the admin staff to set the systems up.  That would be things like traffic, we would bring them in and take them back.

2962             On a go‑forward basis only two areas.  One would be engineering.  We're the .5 and that station can't afford a full‑time engineer.  And the other area that would we would look at would be general admin and that would be a .5.

2963             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You're talking person years.

2964             MR. DOERR:  Yes, sorry.

2965             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  We'll get to now your other four stations.

2966             Because this station would also have coverage under the .5 megavolt contour, why would we not consider this to be a violation of our common ownership policy in the London market if you were licensed?

2967             MR. DOERR:  That it would be a fifty station in London?

2968             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.

2969             MR. DOERR:  Well, Stuart, maybe you can talk about the parameters and the protection aspect of Sarnia and offer some clarification on that.

2970             MR. SLAIGHT:  Before ‑‑ can I just ‑‑ generally speaking here, I mean, if you look throughout Southern Ontario, for instance we have two FM stations in Toronto, we also have a FM station in Hamilton, which booms into Toronto, but it's a local station.  Our station in St. Catharines comes into Toronto.  Everybody's signals go into outside markets.

2971             The key is your commitment to maintain the locality of your radio station and in Woodstock that's what we would do.

2972             We also don't want to see any competition ‑‑ any more competition in London right now because, that market is fairly full and it's very competitive, so our focus from our perspective would be on the Woodstock market.

2973             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And I guess my question then comes down to the format that you've chosen, modern rock.  Is there a modern rock London broadcaster?

2974             MR. DOERR:  No, there isn't.  This is a pure modern rock radio station that we're bringing before you today.  Karen is the expert on this.  The one closest station would probably be FM 96, which is based in London.  It's owned by Corus.

2975             But there's a marked difference between the programming that we're bringing forward today for Woodstock and their programming in London.

2976             Perhaps, Karen, you can expand on that for me.

2977             MS STEELE:  Well, modern rock is a progressive format that is innovative, it has an independent spirit.  It's driving by passionate, creative and up‑and‑coming bands.

2978             The Zone will set itself apart from other radio stations in Woodstock by plying new and independent music that listeners want to hear that they're not hearing in the Woodstock area.

2979             Any artists have been relying on their loyal fan base for word of mouth and the Internet to build their audience because they're not being heard on the radio.  For most artists, though, this is not enough.  They need air time on radio to take their careers to the next level.

2980             The Zone will give Canadian artists and the Canadian record companies a new voice  by providing an outset for music to help develop Canadian artists while appealing to the 18 to 34 demographic, who really want to hear this music.

2981             We'll play international artists but this is the music diversity will bring the Woodstock:  Coldplay, Weezer, Modest Mouse, Killers, Dreamday.  Canadian artists Sum 41, The Truth, Simple Plan, Three Days Grace.

2982             But what will set us apart from the other radio stations is we'll specialist in new music from independent and emerging Canadian artists such as The Arcade Fire, The Stars, Dears, Metric, Broken Social Scene, Death From Above 1979 and local bands such as The Weekend.

2983             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Have you made any analysis of what share, if any, you would take from which London broadcasters?

2984             MR. DOERR:  I can give you sort of the total picture, the way we see the shares rolling out on the radio station after launch, because we did put a lot of work into that.

2985             Basically first thing that you have to note, which was mentioned earlier this morning, is that 85 per cent of the tuning in this market is going out of the market to out‑of‑market stations and about 15 per cent staying in for The Hawk.

2986             The second thing we note is the population is quite young.  A third under 24, 62 per cent under 44, that's 2001 census.  We open with a 13 shares.  That is our expectation, 12 plus.  Of that we see the split as 65 per cent being repatriated from out‑of‑market tuning.  That tuning now is going to FM 96, it's going to COOL FM in Kitchener, it's going to BOB FM in London and DAVE FM  in Cambridge.

2987             35 per cent of our audience will come from inside the Woodstock cell currently.  Of that 15 per cent will come from The Hawk and 20 per cent of that will be made up of new listeners who have just given up and stopped listening to the radio or can't find the format.

2988             Mr. Yerxa's research says 7 out of 10 people that were asked in our sample 1854 said can't find format.  That's why this is a unique opportunity to fill a hole.

2989             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  It's 20 to 39 male oriented.  CKDK is also male oriented.

2990             MR. YERXA:  Commission Cram, if I could just offer a point of clarification, it is not male oriented.  The split is 51 per cent male, 49 per cent female.

2991             You're right, though, classic rock is well over 60 per cent male, 65 per cent in our research.

2992             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And you chose this ‑‑ it's the narrowest demographic of all the applicants.  Why would you choose that strategy? Because of the amount of young people in Woodstock?

2993             MR. DOERR:  Because of the ‑‑ I'll let maybe John add to this, but I think it's the amount of young people in Woodstock.  It's also a format that the research said was the most in demand and the least able to find.

2994             John, do you want to add to that? No?

2995             MR. YERXA:  Yes.  Well, simply put, when you look at the Woodstock market, the existing station there, the incumbent primarily serves those listeners 30, 35 plus years of age gold‑based format and the clear hole exists in the 18 to 34 market for new music.

2996             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And advertisers love the young kids.

2997             Will you be repatriating from any of your own London signals?  I know you have an AC and country that show up in Woodstock.

2998             MR. DOERR:  It would be minimal. We are a 35‑plus entity in London.  We do soft AC, we do country, we do adult standards, which is Frank Sinatra, of course, on one of our AMs and the other, of course AM is News Talk, so there's not a lot of cross.

2999             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And you talk about repatriation here, 65 per cent coming from classic rock, classic hit and CHR.

3000             MR. DOERR:  The majority of 65 per cent would come from FM 96.

3001             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I will come from ‑‑

3002             MR. DOERR:  Yes.

3003             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  FM 96, what is its share in London; do you know?

3004             MR. DOERR:  It's about a nine. That's top of the line.

3005             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And would you expect to take share from it in the London market?

3006             MR. DOERR:  Unlikely.  They're fairly solid there.

3007             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Any overlap in your play list with CKDK?

3008             MR. DOERR:  Very little.  There's a big split at age 35 between classic rock and modern rock and it splits apart dramatically.

3009             They're play ‑‑ their whole library is gold based and it started at 35/44 if not north of that an male based, so there's very, very little sharing.

3010             Karen, is that fair?

3011             MS STEELE:  Yes.  They'll play AC/DC, The Doors, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Ozzie Osborne, The Tragically Hip, none of which we would play on The Zone.

3012             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And yet you say you expect to get about 15 per cent viewing from ‑‑ 15 per cent of your revenue from existing radio, which I assume is CKDC.

3013             MR. DOERR:  Correct.

3014             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Who is that? The disenfranchised female above 34?

3015             MR. DOERR:  Well, it's the ‑‑ it's the people that are listening to The Hawk by default because there's no modern rock station to start with.

3016             Secondly, some of that 15 per cent is going to come across simply because we offer local news and information orientation, because they're not getting it with The Hawk.

3017             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  Going on to your revenue projections, your projections are lower than three others.  Why is that?

3018             MR. DOERR:  I'll let Dan talk to that because we used a four point formula to do the workup for year 1 and then he did the work to take it across the seven years.

3019             We feel they're attainable.  Probably ‑‑ they're very conservative, to be honest with you, because we're going to hit these numbers if licensed because that's good business for all concerned.

3020             Dan, maybe you can just give us the jumping‑off point for Commissioner Cram.

3021             MR. MacGILLIVRAY:  Sure.  Thanks, Braden.

3022             Commissioner, first we did an extensive research with the FP markets, the CRTC financial summaries and the TRAM to establish what we felt was a conservative spend in the Woodstock market.

3023             Second, we gauged the national advertisers in feedback to find out what categories would be strong with 18 to 34 and where the opportunity stood with them.

3024             Third, with my experience in local advertising in the London/St. Thomas/Woodstock area, we went to Woodstock and we listened to the Woodstock advertisers who currently advertise with us, got their feedback and saw where the opportunity was. They wanted a truly local committed radio station.

3025             They also told us they want a station that will reach a market that they felt was underserved and that was the 18 to 34 year olds.

3026             And, finally, Standard Radio has a proven track record with small market radio stations.  All I had to do was talk to our friends in Pembroke, Kelowna, the B.C. interior and pull out the success that they have had in those markets and apply them to this one.

3027             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So did you apply a deduction of some sort because you're new and that sort of thing?

3028             MR. MacGILLIVRAY:  Yes.  I feel the research we've done makes our budget very attainable, realistic.  We're committed to the listeners, we're committed to the advertisers, because we're in the market, and we're committed to the City of Woodstock.

3029             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And did you decide, Mr. MacGillivray, that you're going to get 15 per cent of the revenue from existing local stations, which is primarily CKDK.

3030             MR. MacGILLIVRAY:  Yes, I did, Commissioner.

3031             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Pardon me?

3032             MR. MacGILLIVRAY:  Yes, I did.

3033             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And how did you figure it out?

3034             MR. MacGILLIVRAY:  That was based on feedback we did get from local advertisers who currently advertise on BX 93.

3035             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  And your rates, Mr. Doerr, or anybody, will they be higher, lower or the same as CKDK?

3036             MR. DOERR:  Be lower to start.  Dan, maybe you can just talk about rate and inventory.

3037             MR. MacGILLIVRAY:  Sure. Currently, CKDK The Hawk range anywhere from 15 to $40.  We will be starting our rates at between 16 and $20 and growing from there.

3038             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  Now, do you think the Woodstock market would be able to have more than one new player at this time in addition to yourselves, should you be licensed?

3039             MR. DOERR:  You read my mind.  I think that would probably be a stretch from what I saw.  I would think that probably ‑‑ and given the availability of frequencies, as our competitor who were on before us discussed, I would think that probably this would be the last and probably all the market could bear.  At this point.  However, the growth in this market and how it's doing economically, as you've heard, is incredible.  It's really a city whose time has come.

3040             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  The last question is how come you should be chosen above everybody else and that one comes after I ask this one.

3041             Why is yours the business best of the frequency?

3042             MR. DOERR:  It's the best use of the frequency for a number of reasons.

3043             First of all, we're bringing in a format that's not available.  Secondly, there's huge demand for the format.  Seven out of ten, the people say they can't find the format.

3044             Thirdly, we bring Canadian talent development promises for the seven years of $500,000, which is a substantial amount of money considering the financials we bring forward for the radio station over the seven years.

3045             40 per cent Canadian content.

3046             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I hate to interrupt you, but that's what you can say after my colleagues have grilled you to death.

3047             But the question is why are you the best use of the frequency and it's the frequency question.

3048             MR. DOERR:  Because we're bringing a format to the market that is unavailable at this time.

3049             MS STEELE:  And also because your contours are the largest and the best coverage.

3050             Mr. Chair, thank you.  Thank you gentlemen and ladies.

3051             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you. Commissioner Cugini.

3052             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I just have a very quick question and it's just to understand better the difference between your adult contemporary station that's currently available in the market and your new format.

3053             You listed, obviously, a very extensive list of Canadian artists and that's what I'm most interested in, in the promotion and airplay of Canadian artists.

3054             So Nickelback and The Tea Party is still one of my favourite bands.  Maybe I'm a disenfranchised female over 34, but there you have it.  They are currently not played on your adult contemporary station out of London?

3055             MR. DOERR:  No.

3056             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And so they would be exclusive to this new modern rock station.

3057             MR. DOERR:  Our London station is an easy rock station.

3058             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Is that what you identified as a soft AC?

3059             MR. DOERR:  Oh, yes, just to be clear 35, 44 heavily female and these are two completely different radio stations.

3060             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  Thank you.

3061             MR. DOERR:  You're welcome.

3062             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you. Commissioner Langford.

3063             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

3064             I have two areas of questions I would like to try on you.  The first, I think, would be to Ms Steele, but of course you can decide that on your own.

3065             In your opening remarks, Ms Steele, on page 6 you talked very eloquently about having the opportunity to "break Canadian acts" and went on to talk about the people who were already well‑known. The Nickelbacks and the Our Lady Peaces and then about your brother.

3066             And I'm just wondering what kind of commitment, if you can harden up the commitment to your brother a little more.

3067             And the reason is we have been hearing a lot lately from sort of independent nonsigned acts how difficult it is to get a piece of the 35 or the 40 per cent Canadian content because commercial radio stations are simply just spinning the big names over and over and over again, which is fine, which is legal, but for them just, you know, has the effect of building a concrete wall between them and their dreams.

3068             So I listened to you this morning and I'm reading your remarks over, but it isn't quite clear to me what you're going to do for these newcomers.

3069             MR. DOERR:  I'm going to get to Karen in a second.  Gary would like to talk to that point.

3070             MR. SLAIGHT:  I think the notion, Commissioner Langford, that Canadian radio doesn't support and break new Canadian artists is coming from a segment of the industry that maybe is not putting out the product that's quite ready for radio airplay.

3071             We play a massive amount of new Canadian artists on a regular basis right across the country and many of the artists we play, you know, it's their first record.  We need to do that to continue to have good product to play on the radio.

3072             With this particular radio station Karen can talk about what our commitment will be in terms of giving the new talent exposure, but I think generally speaking a lot of new Canadian artists get played on the radio on a regular basis.

3073             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I must tell you that that was not what we heard, for example, at the satellite radio/subscription radio, if you want to call it, because it was another format, back in the first week of December ‑‑

3074             MR. SLAIGHT:  Right.  A lot ‑‑

3075             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ‑‑ of last year.  We had a long, long list of very unhappy people come before us.

3076             MR. SLAIGHT:  A lot of those artists that are in that community have got the product at this point in time, but they don't have the distribution and for the system to work for a radio station it's important that if we play a record it's in the stores, because the listener expects that they're going to be able to go in and buy it.

3077             So the system in terms of some these new artists doesn't get them into the record stores because the major record companies aren't signing new Canadian artists and they kind of control the pipeline into the retail outlets.

3078             So it's not ‑‑ radio, I think, for the most part does its job.  Part of problem is the other end of the music industry, which is the major record companies and the retail environment, doesn't allow space for some of these new artists.

3079             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That's pretty cold comfort to them, though.

3080             I'm hearing what you're saying, but it doesn't seem to jibe with what Ms Steele I thought she said.

3081             You're basically saying if you're not on a list somewhere, if you're not in a store somewhere you're not going to get played.  Is that what you're saying?

3082             MR. SLAIGHT:  No, I'm saying as a rule for ‑‑

3083             THE CHAIRPERSON:  As a rule.  So what are you going to do for her brother?  He's not on the list and he's not in the store.

3084             MR. SLAIGHT:  No, I believe her brother get a fair amount of airplay on the radio at this point in time and was actually broken out of one of our radio stations.

3085             Karen, do you want to talk kind of about what the plans are for The Zone in this regard?

3086             MS STEELE:  I mean, just to gauge, Universal Music Canada sent me a list that's three pages long of artists that are looking for a home on a modern rock radio station.  They have the talent. They need a station that's going to play that type of new music, which is what we're proposing today.

3087             We have some Canadian talent development programs.  The Live Concert Series, which will occur twice a year for the first two years and three times a year thereafter.

3088             We will provide our local residents with stage time at a local Woodstock event venue to perform and we will carry that broadcast live on The Zone, so give them exposure on our radio station and in the clubs as well as we will record the performance and give them a 100 CD copies of their performance that they can distribute to the record companies.

3089             Another initiative that we have is The Zone Home Grown contest, which is an independent band contest, where listeners in our community, bands in our community, can submit their work.

3090             We will have a solicitation period. We will listen to all of the music that's receive at the radio station and then we will choose 15 of the top entrants received.  This will be decided upon by myself, the music director, and the on‑air staff.

3091             They will each be given 15 ‑‑ 15 bands will be given studio time to record their song, which will appear on a compilation CD, "The Zone Home Grown" compilation CD, which will be distributed throughout Ontario and proceeds from that CD will also be given back to the community to a charity yet to be determined.

3092             Five of those 15 artists will perform locally at a Woodstock event venue in front of members of the Canadian music industry, whom we will invite, and producers to hear their music and determine which is the best of the five, which will receive $10,000 and be our Zone Home Grown competition winner.

3093             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I don't mean to in any way diminish these initiatives. They're important to people and we understand that and you're putting up a lot of money and a lot of money in kind in a way and in no way do I mean to diminish it.

3094             But is the fact at the end of all of this that I misunderstood what you said at the beginning and that if you're not in the stores and if you're not being distributed you're not going to play them?  Is that the way it comes out?

3095             MR. SLAIGHT:  Let me just say ‑‑

3096             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Not in any way to diminish these initiatives but just from a day‑to‑day who gets on your radio station?

3097             MR. SLAIGHT:  As a rule at most mainstream radio stations, which this is not going to be, by the way, the system works that way.  But it still allows for a huge number of new Canadian artists to get played on radio across the country on a weekly basis.

3098             Frankly, some of the people that are talking to you about the lack of airplay support, some of the product isn't good enough to get played on the radio.

3099             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Mr. Slaight, I'm sorry, I guess I'm just not getting it.

3100             You say as a rule on a commercial station, but this isn't that kind of station.

3101             So if I could just narrow this down.  On this station ‑‑ I make no editorial comment ‑‑ I just want to understand what the policy will be.

3102             On this station if you're licensed in Woodstock if you're not on the list, if you're not in the stores, will you get played?

3103             MR. SLAIGHT:  Yes.

3104             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And how big a percentage?  Can you give me some idea?

3105             MR. SLAIGHT:  I think that's hard to say because you don't know where ‑‑ on a regular basis how many product is going to be coming from what sector.

3106             We are going to play 75 per cent new Canadian music on a regular basis.  To achieve 75 per cent we're going to have to be out there being more aggressive looking for new talent and finding product to play on the radio, plus we have the various access vehicles for getting bands into the studio and interviews, et cetera.

3107             So what a percentage of ‑‑ and when you say percentage, Commissioner Langford, are you talking about how much new Canadian music will we be playing?

3108             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Independent, maybe unsigned artists.  They have an independent musicians association, there are about 4,000 members there.  They came before us in December, said they never get any play.  They get more play on satellite radio in The States than they're getting on commercial radio in Canada.

3109             They're unhappy campers.  They talked about how a commercial radio station, if it ‑‑ if it utilizes its spins properly, can play, you know, only ten or twelve well‑known performers and meet their 35 per cent Canadian content.

3110             And I wondered when I saw this on page 6, when I heard Ms Steele, I thought, oh, this is something new, somebody is responding to this problem.  If I misunderstood, well, then, I would just like to be informed if I did.

3111             But if you are reaching into this pool and you are going to give them some spins I would kind of like to get an idea of how much of your day they might ‑‑ I'm not going to suggest dropping a COL on you, but it would be nice to have some idea if I did understand Ms Steele right, what kind of a piece of your day they might be getting.

3112             MR. DOERR:  It would be my hope it would be in the 2 to 4 per cent range, I'm going to have to grab a number.

3113             We haven't been out into the county now.  We know they're there.  Haven't sat down and talked to them, we just haven't listened to them yet, but, as Karen mentioned, what makes us different, and I think she was clear, is that this type of station is one of the last great hopes for independent artists and that is what we're trying to do here and I think you did hear correctly.

3114             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.  That was my question.  We probably could have got to the answer a lot quicker.

3115             Another question I had, and again a little bit unprecedented maybe, but I'm looking at the contour map and your contour map and then I looked at the our contour maps as well and you've probably looked at them as well.

3116             What would happen if we were to suggest to you ‑‑ as I say, this is somewhat unprecedented, but we're just speaking theoretically here.

3117             If we were to suggest to you that you redraw this in some way, that you limit your power or that you limit your height and that your .5 contour does not take in London, could you revamp your business plan and make this work?

3118             MR. DOERR:  Well, my understanding ‑‑ I'm going to let Stuart talk to this, because I got 33 in physics, but my understanding is that this is a spectrum usage issue for protection on a Sarnia frequency that is not in use yet and that is why Elder created the technical brief as they did.

3119             Stuart maybe you can just talk to that.

3120             MR. HAHN:  Yes.  We took a different approach to the protection of a vacant allotment in Sarnia, which allowed us to produce more signal westerly, but if necessary we could, of course, reduce that coverage.

3121             We feel that since this is the last good frequency in the Woodstock area that it's important that it ‑‑ its potential be fully utilized and that is what we tried to do with this design.

3122             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I understand that that is the historic approach to the quote, unquote, "best use of a frequency" but assuming now that I take your opinion at face value, what would that then do to your business plan?

3123             I know you're planning to take a certain percentage of your income out of London. That would probably put the brakes on that.  Could you sell harder in Woodstock and still make a go of it?

3124             MR. DOERR:  We could and it's a cap, because it did come back in the deficiency process and what we said was no more than 15 per cent of our total revenue.  Of course that has a huge effect on the finances, given the scope and size of this radio station at 850.

3125             I think my answer would be, Commissioner, we would have to get back to you on a COL if we had to redraw the patten, as you said.

3126             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Maybe you could give that some thought.

3127             MR. DOERR:  We will.

3128             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.

3129             MR. DOERR:  Thank you.

3130             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Those are my questions, Mr. Chair.

3131             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you. Commissioner Cram.

3132             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  If it isn't numbers it's definitions.

3133             You said you would be playing 75 per cent new Canadian music.  Can you define "new" for me.

3134             MR. DOERR:  Karen, I'll let you touch on that.

3135             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  At least within one year?

3136             MS STEELE:  The new music would come between the last 12 to 16 months.

3137             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So released within ‑‑

3138             MS STEELE:  Released within that time and when we start playing.

3139             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  12 to 16 months.

3140             MS STEELE:  Yes.

3141             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So with every play it would have been released within the 12 to 16 months prior.

3142             MS STEELE:  Yes.

3143             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3144             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

3145             Mr. Slaight, how similar would this proposed station be to The Bear in Ottawa?

3146             MR. SLAIGHT:  Not very similar at all.  The Bear in Ottawa is fairly mainstream.  It plays some classic rock and some new rock.

3147             This station will be really focusing on new alternative rock.  This station will be more similar to CFNY in Toronto, I would suggest.

3148             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And on CFNY, for example, the list that Ms Steele has ‑‑ was it United Artists?

3149             MS STEELE:  Universal.

3150             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Universal.  That they gave you artists looking for a home, how many have already found a home on CFNY?

3151             MS STEELE:  I would say about 75 to 80 per cent of this list.

3152             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are on CFNY?

3153             MS STEELE:  Yes.

3154             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And would be on this station.

3155             MS STEELE:  Yes.

3156             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So why would you characterize them as looking for a home?  CFNY is a pretty good home.

3157             MS STEELE:  That's pretty much the only home they have right now.

3158             MR. SLAIGHT:  CFNY is in Toronto, so I'm using a comparison to a radio station in Toronto here.

3159             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.

3160             MR. SLAIGHT:  I don't believe CFNY gets much tuning in this area.

3161             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  So this would be an effort to give them a home farther away.  Okay.  Thank you.

3162             The issue of demographics, the research supported a 20 to 39 demographic.  Your statement today talked about the 18 to 34 demographic.

3163             Is there any significance that we should draw from those slight differences in the end marks of those demographics or is it just that one is an advertiser traditional demographic and other the other is a research‑based one?

3164             MR. DOERR:  Exactly.  Our presentation today frames it in BBM terms at 18‑34. The research was split as you stated.

3165             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

3166             MR. DOERR:  Thank you.

3167             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Those are our Commissioner questions, we have questions from counsel.

3168             MR. MURDOCK:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

3169             Just one follow‑up question to your news commitment.  I understood you to commit to 4 hours 4 minutes per week of news, 70 per cent of which would be local?

3170             MR. DOERR:  That's correct.

3171             MR. MURDOCK:  Would you be willing to accept that commitment as a condition of licence?

3172             MR. DOERR:  We would.

3173             MR. MURDOCK:  No further questions. Thank you.

3174             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen for your presentation.

3175             We will now break for lunch and resume at 1:30 with the next application.   Nous reprendrons à 13 h 30.

3176             Oh, excuse me, I keep forgetting. You have your final word before sentencing.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

3177             MR. DOERR:  I've started this list three times.  Luckily it's here.  No.

3178             A couple of things.  I would like to close and before I do that I would just like to mention, I think it's important that Ryan Ford, Dan MacGillivray, Kim Woodbridge, Karen Steele and Jennifer McLellan have never served on a CRTC panel before.  They've put a lot of work into this and I would like to recognize in front you not only the work they did, but I think also modestly said, they did a wonderful job.

3179             Thank you all very much.

3180             To close the matter at hand I just would reference the "Why Standard?" sign and this is why I believe you should license us ahead of our competitors for 104.7 in Woodstock.

3181             We're a new local voice, I think we're a better local voice than what they have now, and we're only applicant programming new music.  It's very important and it's very important to the artists.

3182             She's passionate about the artists she talked about and we will give them an avenue for airplay should we be licensed in Woodstock and it will mean a lot to people like Ryan to get on the radio.

3183             Forty per cent Canadian content, as we state in our application and to my left.  And I think Canadian talent development, $500,000, seven year commitment, plus $350,000 in the free spot plan to promote Canadian modern rock ‑‑ new Canadian modern rock artists and $350,000 in community access 365 days a year times four PSA's a day, we will look after the people in Woodstock that need an avenue and a radio station to get their word out.

3184             We have small market expertise. Dan mentioned Pembroke and you're aware we do business in the B.C. interior, places like Vernon. We're very successful, we know how to do it, and we'll do it right in Woodstock.

3185             Woodstock news and information, something we spent a lot of time talking about today. There's a huge void there.  The research shows it.  I heard about it on the street.  I heard the term "unhappy campers" from you today.  There are a lot of unhappy campers in Woodstock as far as news and information on the radio and 3.5 ‑‑ three‑and‑a‑half news people committed to today along with Kim's expertise running that department.

3186             I work with her everyday, she's excellent, as you heard.

3187             We will address that issue in Woodstock and Oxford County.  We'll cover the meetings, we'll get the news on the radio and we will ensure the people in Woodstock and Oxford feel right about radio again as far as local coverage goes.

3188             It's a realistic business plan. We're mid‑back as far as revenue goes, as you noted. That's because we know we can do it and by doing it we'll deliver on our Canadian talent development and everything else we discussed with you today in the way of commitments that we'll honour.

3189             And it's fifteen new jobs for the city, I hope Your Worship will note that, plus two part time should we be licenses.

3190             So that's what I would like to put forward as the reasons why you should licence us.  And we thank you all very much for your time and interest today.

3191             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very kindly.

3192             We'll break now, resume at 1:30 with the next item.  And I think that we will try and do two or three items today, so the ... so, Mr. Secretary, I don't know whether you've contacted all the parties to be alert to possible presentations today, but that's our plan for today.

3193             We'll go until at least 6 p.m. Thank you.  Nous reprendrons à 13 h 30.  We'll resume at 1:30.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1227 / Suspension à 1227

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1334 / Reprise à 1334

3194             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.   À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

3195             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

3196             We will now proceed with Item 4 on the agenda, which is an application by CHUM Limited for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Woodstock.

3197             The applicant proposes a soft adult contemporary format.  The new station would operate on frequency 104.7 megahertz, channel 284B, with a an average radiated power of 3,200 watts.

3198             Mr. Paul Ski will introduce his colleagues and you have 20 minutes for your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRESENTATION

3199             MR. SKI:  Thank you very much.

3200             Good morning, Mr. Chair ‑‑ or afternoon now, I guess, it is ‑‑ Mr. Vice‑chair, members of the Commission.

3201             My name is Paul Ski and I'm of executive vice‑president of radio for CHUM Limited.

3202             Before we begin our presentation I would like to take this opportunity to introduce our panel.  To my left, your right, is Kerry French, director of research for CHUM Radio.  To my right is someone whom I know you all know, Duff Roman, vice‑president industry affairs for CHUM Radio.

3203             In the back row on the far left is Jim Blundell, regional manager for CHUM's small markets stations, and seated beside Jim is Rob Farina, program director for CHUM FM and to Rob's right is Kevin Goldstein, director, regulatory affairs for CHUM Limited.

3204             I'm very pleased to be here today to present CHUM's proposal for a new local radio station in Woodstock.

3205             In my career in radio I've worked in large and small markets from Halifax to Vancouver, but I have a particular interest in this application, as I was actually raised not far from Woodstock.

3206             My first job in radio was with CHLO‑AM in my hometown of St. Thomas.  In fact, I remember fondly spending many Saturday nights in Woodstock as young deejay hosting sock hops at the local community centre.  That was a few years ago.

3207             In many ways it was that experience that helped me to understand how important local radio stations are to the communities they serve, which in my view is central to this application.

3208             Our opening statement has three main themes.  First, radio's importance to smaller markets; second, what the Woodstock community has told us they need; and, third, why CHUM's application best meets those needs.

3209             CHUM's success in larger markets such as Toronto, Vancouver, Winnipeg and Ottawa is well documented.  However, we rarely have the opportunity when we appear before you to discuss the valuable contributions our stations in smaller centres make to their local communities.

3210             CHUM's radio stations in smaller markets like Peterborough, Brockville and Lindsay don't just serve the community, they are a integral part of it.

3211             As a result, during times of crisis residents rely heavily on our stations for both critical information and assistance.

3212             During the ice storm of 1998 our Brockville station, CFJR, became a 24/7 community emergency news and information service for five days. CHUM is the only licensed operator in Brockville and the valuable contribution our stations made during this time of crisis was recognized by Brockville's police services, fire department and the local hospitals.

3213             In fact, Bruce Wylie, the host of CFJR's morning show, won the Ontario Association of Broadcasters award for Broadcaster of the Year for his efforts.

3214             In 2003, when Peterborough experienced the great blackout, our stations were, at first, the only ones on air.  We immediately made contact with local emergency services, ensuring that critical information was communicated to Peterborough residents and several staff came in on their days off to answer the phones, helping the community through this time crisis.

3215             And in Lindsay, where CHUM operates the only radio station, we ensured that the community was kept informed and aware with the help of a portable generator and the co‑operation of the local fire department.

3216             Just last year, during the Peterborough flood, CHUM's radio stations acted as a lifeline to local residents, providing information on road closures and health issues related to the flood.

3217             But our support didn't stop there. Our radio station sponsored and helped organize the Peterborough Flood Relief Concert that raised over 1.5 million dollars and our stations are about to be honoured with a Community Betterment Award from City Council for their phenomenal support after the flood.

3218             This is the kind of commitment and service we want to provide to Woodstock and Oxford County.

3219             In small markets especially, local radio stations must be in tune with the needs of the community.  Local residents turn to our stations first to sponsor and promote community events. Station staff and management sit on the boards of various community organizations and are always willing to donate their time to help local charities.

3220             In addition, local residents have come to rely on us for local reports, such as road and school closures, bus cancellations, and those most up‑to‑date weather information.

3221             And, as Kerry will explain, based on the research we conducted and our conversations with local residents we believe this is what is lacking in Woodstock.

3222             MS FRENCH:  With stations located in communities to the west and east of Woodstock, we have watched with interest as Woodstock has began to blossom.

3223             Situated in scenic Oxford County, Woodstock has become a vibrant regional commercial centre for outlying communities, such as Ingersoll and Norwich and hosts the county seat for government.

3224             Principally a farming and manufacturing community, Woodstock is home to approximately 36,000 residents.  However, the Woodstock central area as defined by BBM is significantly larger, with over 82,000 people 12 and over.

3225             At present there are three licensed radio stations in Oxford County.  Two of these station, an AM and an FM, are in Tillsonburg and are operated by Tillsonburg Broadcasting Company.

3226             Given that these stations are both licensed to serve Tillsonburg, the main trust of their programming is not Woodstock.

3227             The remaining station, CKDK‑FM or The Hawk, as it is known, is owned by Corus Entertainment and is licensed to serve Woodstock.

3228             While The Hawk does offer some programming for Woodstock residents only 8 per cent of the station's audience actually comes from the Woodstock CA.  Given its format and broad coverage area The Hawk's listeners are drawn mainly from the larger markets of Kitchener and London, from which its morning drive programming originates.

3229             At the end of the day, and as our research shows, this leaves Woodstock residents without a radio station to call their own.

3230             Woodstock is a community distinct from the major centres that surround it.  We firmly believe that the residents of Woodstock and surrounding area deserve a station that is part of that community, a station that targets their needs and provides programming of specific interest to them.

3231             We believe Magic 104.7 is that station.

3232             MR. ROMAN:  Our new station will be based in Woodstock and all of its programming will originate from there.

3233             Operating as Magic 104.7 we will offer Woodstock residents a mix of local spoken word programming ‑‑ over six hours per week ‑‑ and the best soft adult contemporary music.

3234             The bulk of our local spoken word programming will be devoted to news, sports and weather information.  Magic will provide news coverage seven days a week, adding greatly to the diversity of news voices available in the market.

3235             Our three‑person news department will keep Woodstock listeners in the know about local events, activities and conditions that affect their day‑to‑day lives.  A sudden whiteout on the 401 at Drumbo Road, school closures, developments at City Council or last night's Navy Vet's score.

3236             During the three‑hour morning drive period Magic will offer a five‑minutes news, sports and weather package at the top of each hour supplemented by a two‑minute package at the bottom of each hour.

3237             The station will also provide two‑minute news updates at the top of each hour from 9 a.m. to 11 a.m. and a five‑minute package at noon and further the furthermore the station will provide an afternoon update and a five‑minutes news, sports and weather package at the top of each hour during the three‑hour afternoon drive period.

3238             Our weekend schedule will provide hourly reports in the morning with updates at noon and at 5 p.m.  The information provided will be particularly relevant to the residents of Woodstock and Oxford County.

3239             Magic will also provide a number of daily community‑oriented features.  Five times daily the station will air the Magic Community Calendar, a one‑minute round‑up of upcoming community events in Woodstock and Oxford County.

3240             Other daily features will include the Magic Local Sports Salute, the Magic Birthday Club, Magic Stork Stories and the pet adoption feature, Magic Scratch and Sniff.

3241             To further assist the community, we intend to make the station's boardroom available to community groups to host meetings and in times of need to be used as an emergency control centre.

3242             As noted, music on the station will come from the soft adult contemporary genre.  Or survey of Woodstock radio listeners show that soft AC is very popular, but the local station does not offer this type of music.

3243             Instead, Woodstock's residents are forced to tune to out‑of‑market stations that don't provide a local Woodstock perspective.  Magic will provide them with a local alternative, a Woodstock radio station for residents of Woodstock and the surrounding communities.

3244             Soft AC is a format that appeals to a broad range of adults between the ages of 25 and 54.  Often identified as "light" or "soft rock" soft adult contemporary stations play music from a vast number of Canadian artists, including such well‑known performers as Shania Twain, Jann Arden and Sarah McLachlan, as well as hits from international stars Rod Stewart and Phil Collins and Matchbox 20.

3245             There are also a number of up‑and‑coming Canadian soft AC acts that are gaining recognition, including Michael Buble, Divine Brown, Matt Dusk and Kalan Porter.

3246             Magic will be a Woodstock soft adult contemporary station providing residents with a local source of this popular genre for the first time.

3247             MR. SKI:  As we noted in our application, Woodstock is currently enjoying a period of strong economic growth which should continue for the foreseeable future.

3248             Building permits are up, construction activity is up, land sales are up considerably, and the population is growing.

3249             In fact, MPP Chris Bentley, Ontario's Minister of Labour, indicated last week in the Woodstock Sentinel Review that he believes that Oxford County will likely be the heart of the new growth triangle.

3250             All of these factors point to the ability of the Woodstock market to sustain a new entrant.

3251             Operating a stand‑alone station solely designed to serve this market will be challenging, but our station will benefit from the resources of the entire CHUM group, including the proven CHUM selling system and the small market expertise we have developed operating our stations in Peterborough, Lindsay and Brockville.

3252             When CHUM is licensed to serve a market we research what that market particularly needs.  We consult with the community and establish a station that is truly programmed and operated.

3253             That is exactly the approach we've taken in our markets and it is exactly the approach we will take in Woodstock if this application is approved.

3254             Our projections for the new station assume revenue of just over $950,000 in the first year of operation, growing to just over 1.5 million dollars by the end of the licence term.  The station will be profitable on a pre‑tax basis by the fourth year of operation.

3255             In addition, we have committed to spend $40,000 annually on eligible Canadian talent development expenditures.  This money will be used to support FACTOR and Canadian Music Week, but the largest portion will be used to stage the Woodstock Music Festival, an annual event showcasing the best emerging and established Canadian soft adult contemporary artists.

3256             Given CHUM's experience in similar markets, we believe this business plan is realistic and achievable and will ensure that Magic is able to provide Woodstock residents with the level of service they are currently lacking.

3257             Mr. Chair, Mr. Vice‑Chair, members of the Commission, in our short time with you today we believe we've demonstrated the following:

3258             CHUM is known for operating successful radio stations in smaller markets that are an integral part of the communities they serve.

3259             Woodstock and Oxford County residents are lacking a radio station that is relevant and focused on their needs.

3260             Our proposed new station, Magic 104.7, will respond to the needs of the community with locally specific news and information programming, increasing the diversity of news voices in the market.

3261             Magic 104.7 will make a significant contribution to the development of Canadian talent with an investment of $280,000 over seven years.

3262             And Magic 104.7 will be locally managed and operated, giving Woodstock and Oxford County residents a radio station to call their own.

3263             For all of these reasons we believe this application should be approved.

3264             We welcome your questions.  Thank you very much.

3265             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

3266             Vice‑chair French.

3267             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Thank you, Mr. Ski, for that concise and well‑focused presentation.  I'll try to be equally concise and well focused in my questions.

3268             You heard this morning Byrnes Communications' presentation?

3269             MR. SKI:  Yes, we did.

3270             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  And you heard their rationale for their adult contemporary.  And I don't want you to repeat it if it's the same rationale essentially, but can you talk a little bit about your reason for that as a choice and is there a particular demographic in the broad group that's interested and attracted by that format that you're focusing on?

3271             MR. SKI:  When we look at a market such as Woodstock and when we do research, audience research of any type, we look at essentially three criteria.  One is ‑‑ and this is actually after we've looked at the demographics of the market, if the demographics of the market show that the ‑‑ the demographics lean younger or older then we'll maybe look at our experience in other market and based on that look at two or three formats that we think might work from our experience in those markets.

3272             Once we've done that we look at essentially three criteria.  One is ‑‑ and this is in our research ‑‑ essentially how many people will listen often to this particular type of music format; can it be their favourite and if it's their favourite then obviously we get a large percentage of what we call P1s or people who are committed to listening to the radio station.

3273             And the third part of that process is looking at whether there are others that are filling that particular format opportunity.

3274             And once we've looked at those three criteria then we get an idea what format might be best and based on that and looking at the formats that we looked at, basically soft adult contemporary, hot adult contemporary and country, we thought that soft adult contemporary, it appears, showed the best promise, primarily because of the fact that the number of respondents who felt there was no station filling that particular void was double of the other formats, in particular the country format.

3275             And the stations that were identified as stations that may have been filling that were out‑of‑market stations, they were stations in Kitchener and stations in London.

3276             So essentially that's how we got to the format designation and I think that it should be remembered that adult contemporary formats normally, because they draw from various genres, are normally in our experience best in smaller markets.

3277             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  So unlike your colleagues immediately preceding, you looked at Woodstock and instead of saying to yourself, there is an obvious gap in the programming of the region as a whole, you said ‑‑ and therefore we're going to pursue that, which I take it to be what we were told by your predecessors, you had said overall the flexibility of the AC format works best in this small market.  We don't want to be, as it were, a narrowly‑focused broadcaster.

3278             MR. SKI:  Well, I don't think we believe that in the market the size of Woodstock or Oxford County that we could be microfocused on a format.

3279             If we're going to bring people into that radio station we have to offer them some music ‑‑ irrespective of the spoken word we may have, we also have to surround that spoken word with music that will be listened to by the vast majority of people who live in Woodstock and Oxford County, not in other markets, and so as a result of that, we felt that if we were looking at the format that, again, was a niche format or microniche format then we wouldn't attract the large proportion of people from this particular county.

3280             Now, Kerry may want to comment on that in terms of demographics.

3281             MS FRENCH:  Yes.  Just to say that if you look at the age demographic breakdown of the soft AC format across the country, it pretty closely mirrors the breakdown of population within Woodstock and Oxford Country, so it's a natural match.

3282             The only area where it doesn't match is the 55 to 65 class area, which is covered by the adult standards format out of Tillsonburg, so we were trying to come up with the right format for Woodstock, seeing as this will be the radio station that they can call their own, that serves this area's needs, we tried to match it as closely as we could.

3283             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I want to talk a little bit about your programming commitments.

3284             You've said that you're going to be 100 percent local originated.

3285             MR. SKI:  That's correct.

3286             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  And you're going to offer about four hours of news per broadcast week?  Does that correspond to the numbers that we saw in your presentation?

3287             MR. SKI:  Not quite.  I'll have Duff Roman take you through the ‑‑

3288             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Please.

3289             MR. ROMAN:  Yes.  Vice‑chair French, we're committing to 4 hours and 30 minutes of news, sports, weather and traffic.  There are other spoken word features, some longer some shorter, but overall our spoken word commitment exceeds six hours, but the news, sports, weather and traffic part is 4 hours and 30 minutes.

3290             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  And what proportion of that would you be prepared to commit to making local on an average?

3291             MR. ROMAN:  Well, we'd be very careful with the impact of any news story, local, national, international, and its relevance to the Woodstock market, but I think you need a measuring stick, a guide, so I would probably see it as something in the order of 70 per cent or more local, perhaps 15 per cent regional and another 15 per cent national/international.

3292             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Would you put any mechanisms in place to ensure that you're in touch with the local community besides your normal commercial relationships?

3293             MR. SKI:  Well, it might be helpful to understand how CHUM operates its small market radio stations.

3294             Obviously the manager, sales manager, program manger, the news director all live in Woodstock, as do the remainder of the number of employees that we have on staff.

3295             And these people, in our experience, since their part of the community, bring to the radio station firsthand what's really needed in the community.

3296             From a sales perspective I might have Jim Blundell touch on that, who is our regional small market manager, in terms of just those touch points that the various staff members have with members of the community.

3297             MR. BLUNDELL:  Yes. Mr. Vice‑chair, I think the answer to that is that there is a natural mechanism, if you're not close to the community, if you're not woven into the fabric of that community it doesn't provide you with a business model that will.

3298             So I'm not sure that that answers your question, but that's certainly the way I would see it.

3299             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  It answers my question.

3300             Well, in that regard, how many programming staff, including on‑air talent, do you expect to employ?

3301             MR. SKI:  Let me just get those numbers for you.  Are you ...

3302             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  You've just described a series of people, Mr. Ski, that are going to live in the community.

3303             MR. SKI:  Right, yes.

3304             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  And they're very appropriate and I'm searching for some quantitative information about how many they'll be and what they will do.

3305             MR. SKI:  Right.  Well, we have eighteen staff member.

3306             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Eighteen staff members.  And they will all be 100 percent dedicated to the Woodstock station?

3307             MR. SKI:  Yes, they will.

3308             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  And what proportion of that stuff would be involved with news?

3309             MR. SKI:  Three.

3310             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Three.  And would there be a news director or ‑‑

3311             MR. SKI:  Yes, there would.  There would be a news director and two news staff.

3312             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Thank you.

3313             Now, you have a station in London whose programming is similar in a general sense, is that a fair way to say?  Let me start off by asking you a more neutral question or a question which will not lead you in any particular direction.

3314             Could you relate your proposed format for Woodstock with your existing format in London?

3315             MR. SKI:  They're quite different, actually and it's probably the reason that in London a format such as ours lives side by side with a soft AC station.  It's in the London market.

3316             So they're actually quite different and although there may be some similarities or perceived similarities in terms of the music content ‑‑ and indeed there may be some crossover in songs, although, quite frankly, not a lot ‑‑ what we look at when we're looking at formats is what we call life groups and life groups are really designations that say that somebody may in the same demographic ‑‑ someone in one demographic may be the same as the other person in terms of their age, but they have very different and distinct musical tastes.

3317             So while they may want someone ‑‑ someone in the 25‑54 demo may want a ‑‑ may be a country listener, somebody else may be a soft AC listener.

3318             Rob Farina, who has some experience with our particular type of BOB format, as did Jim Blundell, can maybe give you a better idea of the separation or the differences between soft AC and the BOB format which we have in London.

3319             MR. FARINA:  Absolutely.  Thanks, Paul.

3320             And a lot of it has to do with ‑‑ the differences in the stations is in the listening experience.  They're completely different experiences.

3321             The BOB format is a much more active listening experience.  They're a lot more contest heavy.  The music is a lot more intense in‑your‑face, there's a lot more interactivity through callers, through the contesting and phone bits.

3322             Whereas the soft AC format is a much more passive listening experience.  It's the kind of station that, you know, people want to listen to throughout their workday, they want to hear music they're familiar with, but as well as that they want to get news and information that's relevant to their lives.

3323             So they're pretty distinctly different formats, not only in terms of music they play, but in terms of the presentation on the stations.

3324             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  With relation to that London station are there synergies involved, in either sales or programming?  What would the relationship be?

3325             MR. SKI:  The synergies that would be involved between London and Woodstock would actually be not too different than the synergies that we have throughout the group, between, say, a London station or some of our other stations, in that, for instance, Jim Blundell does most of the sales training for our radio stations in terms of the CHUM Solution selling process and he does that across the country.  He would also be the regional manager responsible for this particular station.

3326             So the synergies that CHUM brings to this, I guess, is the essentially expertise, the expertise in terms of how to build good local radio stations; the sales expertise and the sales approach, which is especially important in smaller markets, where 90 per cent or more of the sales that are generated are essentially local, so ratings don't necessarily mean as much as they do in larger markets.  What really means a lot is the relationships that you're able to build with the local advertisers.

3327             And, as a result of that, our particular CHUM Solution selling approach, which as I say, has been very successful in these markets and it's something that we bring as part of the CHUM expertise.

3328             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Are there administrative or technical synergies?

3329             MR. SKI:  Well, we've set the station up as a stand‑alone station, but certainly we have a vice‑president of engineering, again, who helps with engineering in our various markets.

3330             Duff Roman is VP of regulatory affairs, so Duff would help in any regulatory issues, but that's sort of the extent, because our radio stations in every market, large and small, operate with a tremendous amount of autonomy.  The local managers, the local sales managers, the local program managers, really know best how to operate those radio stations and they come to us for addition help as it's needed.

3331             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  So the synergies will be with the corporation and not horizontally with the neighbouring station.

3332             MR. SKI:  That's correct.  With ‑‑ except for the fact that we have a regional manager, who ‑‑ again, that's an advantage because he can bring together all of the small market radio stations and through that they develop and solve various problems that are challenges for smaller markets.

3333             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  In your letter of March 25th you indicated that there would be a small amount of syndicated programming.  What would be the source of that syndicated programming?

3334             MR. SKI:  I'll have Rob Farina address that.  It's essentially programming that comes out of our CHUM Radio Network.

3335             MR. FARINA:  Yes.  Every once in a while we'll do a music special.  For example, recently when Jann Arden released her new record we did a special of Jann and her band performing selections from a new album live.

3336             We distribute that to CHUM Radio stations ‑‑ actually, we distribute it to anybody that would like to take that so ‑‑ and that's based on the program manager of the market deciding whether or not it's appropriate for their own format.

3337             In terms of the amount of programming like that, an example, that show was a one‑hour show and we probably do about five or six of those in the course of a calendar year.

3338             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  So that's the only syndicated programming, it's CHUM programming.

3339             MR. SKI:  That's correct.

3340             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Correct. Now, in any crowded radio market, albeit locally unserved, the arrival of a new station is going to attract some listeners from some existing stations.

3341             Can you tell us a little bit about your evaluation in that regard?  You're going to repatriate 64 per cent of the out‑of‑market tuning in the local area based, presumably, on your local content.  What else?

3342             MR. SKI:  I'll ask Kerry to give you that reply.

3343             MS FRENCH:  A couple of things happen whenever you put a new radio station on the air.  It ‑‑ you don't necessarily take listeners right away from another radio station, what you do is affect the level of tuning.

3344             If someone has a group of radio stations that they're normally used to listening to, if they're on the presets in their car or at home on their stereo, the first thing you have to do is market to them that there's an alternative available and in this case the ‑‑ you know, a Woodstock home radio station.

3345             A lot of people who are listening to out‑of‑market radio stations because they don't have that local alternative, it may take us some time initially to convince them that we're giving them what they need, but we will take tuning away, not necessarily take them totally away.

3346             They may still listen to CIQM in London, they still may listen to CFCA in Kitchener, but they will listen less and hopefully over time tune us in more and more.

3347             We will also, because we're providing this new alternative, I think we're going to increase general tuning to radio in the Woodstock market, because they haven't had their own radio station for a while, they have, some of them, gotten a little jaded about radio, not happy about the service, so they're generally tuning less.

3348             I think we're going to influence that and increase the amount of time spent by residents of Oxford County to radio.

3349             But I think generally we will take some tuning away from several London stations, several Kitchener stations, maybe a little bit from Tillsonburg.  The people from Woodstock who listen to that radio station who are younger, they listen maybe by default, because that's the only place they get some sort of local flavour, we'll affect them slightly, but our radio station is targeted very differently than Tillsonburg, so that will be a minimal amount.

3350             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  So, Ms French, a lot of little pieces from a lot of diverse sources and no great strong impact on any one broadcaster.

3351             MS FRENCH:  You're correct.  I don't believe there will be a huge impact on any single operator.

3352             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  In your letter to the Commission of March 24th, 2005, you estimated you would take 14 per cent of the advertising revenues from CKDK‑FM.  How did you arrive at that figure?

3353             MS FRENCH:  I think that figure was a combination.  The 14 per cent was of local radio stations.  A minor percentage of that figure would come from Tillsonburg.  Once again, the default issue.  The majority would come from The Hawk.

3354             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Existing Woodstock advertisers with pockets deep enough to pay the rates that CKDK is charging.

3355             MR. FRENCH:  Correct, but that doesn't amount to a great amount of money.  We're ... part of that also is we would ‑‑ some of the advertisers that are currently using radio, with a local Woodstock alternative that's really directed at the demographic that they're trying to reach hopefully we would be able to convince them to increase their spend in radio.

3356             And part of our solution selling system is to tie that together, the increased spending investment on radio that helps them grow their business and when they grow their business their ad budgets can grow with the business.

3357             So our impact on the existing stations from a financial point of view would be quite minimal.

3358             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Now, The Hawk is charging what I understand to be London rates.

3359             Tell us a little bit about your rates in relation to those rates.

3360             MS FRENCH:  From what I understand in general terms, yes, The Hawk is charging London rates, but they do, from what we've been told, now and again have specials for Woodstock, if they have extra inventory, that they will sell it at a much cheaper rate to a Woodstock advertiser.

3361             Our rates are definitely set up to serve the Woodstock community.  In the research that we did the Acumen Research that we submitted with our application, we talked to a lot of people who said that they can't afford The Hawk because it is priced for London.

3362             We understand what the market can bear and our rates would be in the neighbourhood of a net rate of $20 to $25.  That's what our revenue projections are based on, starting out.

3363             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  And your business plan is viable at those rates.

3364             MS FRENCH:  Yes.  Yes, it is.

3365             MR. SKI:  I think, and Mr. Vice‑Chair, if I could just comment too that the majority of the revenue from this station will be entrusted to us by small business people.  These are people who need to make their cash registers ring or who need to fill their store or their club.

3366             So although rate may be an issue, they may be prepared to pay the same price as they might be for a spot on London, the real key here ‑‑ and we talked a little bit about our solution selling approach in terms of partnering with the client, which, if you don't mind I would like Jim Blundell just to explain a little bit about, because it's different than selling, as we say, spots and dots. It's getting radio away from what we believe we need to do, not only here, but across the country, and that's getting away from a commodity sell, because with a commodity sell you're obviously at the mercy of ratings, et cetera, which in a market like Woodstock are really negligible in terms of your clients.  What they want to know is what can you do for them and if your ratings are a 5 share or a 25 share, really doesn't matter.  It's whether the cash register rings or not.

3367             Jim, do you want to add to that?

3368             MR. BLUNDELL:  Sure.  I have a couple of points.  First, I would say that I think a lot of broadcasters might think they set the rates. I don't believe that.  I think the market sets the rates.

3369             I think you have to realize that the market simply dictates the rates.  If you charge too much you won't have any business.  That's just a fact of life.

3370             And as far as the way we approach things, I think that it works in a every level of business, but I think that if you see your advertisers or we see our advertisers as partners. If we can look at not ways to sell them something, but ways to find solutions to their issues, to their problems, find out what their goals are, find out what it is that they're trying to achieve in their business and indeed genuinely help them to get there through the power of radio it becomes very powerful.

3371             And I think that when, as Paul Ski said earlier, that in a market like this, 90 per cent of our business will be local direct.

3372             So it becomes therefore so much more important not to be selling a commodity, but to be using our great product, the radio, the radio station, as a solution to their problems in the market.

3373             And it's worked in so many markets, quite frankly, from Lindsay to Toronto.  It works everywhere.

3374             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Could you tell me a little bit about your evaluation of the market in relation to the possibility of another new commercial FM station.  Where do you sit?

3375             Do you regard that market as sufficiently attractive and sufficiently robust to be able to handle another licence?

3376             MR. SKI:  Are you asking about another licence on top of ‑‑

3377             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Yours.

3378             MR. SKI:  ‑‑ ours?

3379             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Or someone else's, hypothetically.

3380             MR. SKI:  Yes.  Or ours hypothetically.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

3381             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Right.  Let's take that hypothesis.

3382             MR. SKI:  Okay.  Well, I think, as was mentioned earlier, this is certainly a growing market, but given the population of not only Woodstock and Oxford County, we think that possibly another station could be licensed.  We don't necessarily think it's conceivable in the short term.

3383             I think that if a new station is licensed we think it should have the opportunity to obviously gain some ground and to be put into a position where it can be profitable and successful.

3384             And at that time once that happens, possibly at the end of the first licence term, maybe be reevaluated.

3385             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  If we were to decide not to award 104.7 to Tillsonburg, but they were to find another frequency which would put them on a longer time period and into the Woodstock market, what would your position in that hearing be, assuming you were the licensee?

3386             MR. SKI:  With the Tillsonburg station as a competitor in the Woodstock market?

3387             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Yes.

3388             MR. SKI:  I think our position would be that would be the fine.  I think that their primary marketing area would be Tillsonburg; our primary market area would be Woodstock.  If there is some overlap then there is some overlap, but we wouldn't have a problem with that.

3389             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Thank you.

3390             Just say that when Buddy Holly and Chuck Berry were modern rock I was listening to CHUM and I'm pleased to have the opportunity to ask you these questions after all these years.

3391             Thank you very much.

3392             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  And the evocation of sock hops and ringing cash registers, Mr. Ski, I wonder whether you're targeting the right demographic.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

3393             MR. SKI:  Actually, the people who were at those sock hops probably are in the target here for our particular format.

3394             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Langford.

3395             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.  I have just a couple of questions.

3396             About the synergies, I was just wondering, following up on Vice‑chair French's questions, in the sense of making up add packages, is there any possibility there of utilizing your different voices that are heard in Woodstock, so that, for example, you have CHST‑FM in London and it's heard in Woodstock and then, of course, Woodstock, looking at your contour map, your Woodstock station would be heard in London.

3397             Is there some way you could work that so that you're selling some sort of an ad package, some sort of beneficial rate if you take both markets?

3398             MR. SKI:  Actually, to clarify, our signal is severely impaired in London, so it's ... it certainly isn't part of ‑‑ the approach certainly of this particular application.  We don't get into Kitchener and we're severely impaired, from what the technical briefs say, in terms of London.

3399             I think your question is would we be package selling a London and a Woodstock; is that correct?

3400             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I think that's what I probably tried to say in my own amateurish fashion, yes.

3401             MR. SKI:  Well, just to go back to a number of the things that we said earlier.  We just don't believe in package selling.  We think that, although some people try to do it, if we're not ‑‑ if we're selling the wrong product, the wrong radio station to the wrong prospect, when what we should be doing is listening to them, finding out what their problems are and finding solutions to them as opposed to saying, "Here's a package, here's something off the shelf.  Would you like to buy it?  And here's the rate," we don't think that says much for the long‑term viability of our business.  So it's really not the way that we sell.

3402             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Can I explore that a little bit, because I don't quite understand why it's a problem and it might be helpful to take a minute, if you don't mind.

3403             You've got a station as well ‑‑ why don't we do a triple play here.  You've got CFCA‑FM in Kitchener and that can be heard in Woodstock and just from a straight retail basis, if you happen to have someone selling Fords in London and someone selling in Fords in Kitchener maybe they would like to sell some Fords to people in Woodstock or there could be ways where just focussing simply on consumers, it seems to me ‑‑ and this is certainly not my business, so I'm looking for instruction here ‑‑ it seems to me that that might be worthwhile making up packages and I wondered if that was one of the synergies that you might consider.

3404             You're saying no, but I'm not quite sure why, quite frankly.

3405             MR. SKI:  Well, certainly there's a possibility of advertisers or, say, a Ford dealing, if we're using the Ford dealer, who wants to advertise in Woodstock maybe to attract Woodstock customers or someone in London from attracting Woodstock customers, and, yes, on a ‑‑ on maybe a rare occasion there might be an opportunity where the planets collide and everybody wants to do something at the same time, but most car dealers, other than, say, a national or generic advertiser, really want their own name and their own business associated with that, not necessarily ‑‑ not necessarily do they want to be sold on a regional basis.

3406             But Jim may be able to provide some insight into that.

3407             MR. BLUNDELL:  I think that to begin with, I think we need to back up to what we talked about before, packaging up our product, whether it's two or three radio stations, and trying to sell it as a commodity to an advertiser is, we believe, the wrong approach fundamentally.

3408             We think that what we need to do is find out the challenges they face and then recommend ‑‑ and I can tell you, Commissioner, that in some cases we will recommend our competition.  If we think that our competition can do a better job at a particular function of an advertiser we'll recommend our competition.  Because we're stupid?  No.  Because what we want to build is a relationship that becomes a long‑term revenue stream, not just make a transaction or make a sale.

3409             And that's really the fundamental difference.  And if you can get your head around that you realize that just packaging up radio stations is not the answer.  That's yesterday's story.

3410             Today if you want to win you have to find solutions for people.

3411             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Just ask my kids, I'm yesterday's man.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

3412             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  One other question in the sense of synergies.  You're going to have a director and two reporters in your newsroom here in Woodstock and they'll obviously cover your local, which is 70 per cent, you say, approximately of your news coverage.

3413             What about when stories get a little bigger than local, not national necessarily, but might you utilize ‑‑ and I assume this would be a two‑way street ‑‑ might you utilize your Kitchener staff to make a story or reuse a story that's played in Kitchener in Woodstock or in London?  Are there any synergies there?

3414             MR. SKI:  Certainly those synergies would be the same as exist throughout the country with our stations.  If there's a story in Kitchener that relates to Woodstock or Woodstock that relates to Kitchener or Woodstock relates to the rest of the country, one of our advantages is that we can share that information across the country.

3415             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Just a simple matter of common sense, then, that if there's a London story and you've got a station there, you run that ‑‑ run your London reporter in Woodstock?

3416             MR. SKI:  That's correct.  Or if there's a Toronto story a or Vancouver story, the same thing.

3417             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Same deal.

3418             MR. SKI:  Although more of that obviously would happen throughout Ontario.

3419             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Does that happen a lot?  I mean, from your experience running smaller stand‑alone stations do they draw a lot on your other news bureaus?

3420             MR. SKI:  You know, that's ‑‑ it's difficult to give you some type of quantum for that because of the fact that things are constantly changing, but obviously where there are stories or where there are, I guess, points of interest or things of interest happening then we do do it, but I would think now it might be ‑‑ and this would be a bit of a guess ‑‑ maybe five to ten percent of the time.

3421             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thanks very much.  Those are my questions, Mr. Chairman.

3422             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you. Commissioner Cram.

3423             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you. It's the old I have to be legal again.

3424             In order to be fair to all of the applicants, because I asked the first, how many hours have you planned to have of live programming?

3425             MR. SKI:  The total live programming would be 96 hours.

3426             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  From when to when?

3427             MR. SKI:  From Monday to Sunday.  And you want the hours of the day.  Okay.

3428             Monday to Friday would be 6 a.m. to 9 p.m.  That's 15 hours a day times time five is 75.

3429             Saturdays 7 a.m. to 6 p.m., which is eleven hours, and Sunday 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. which would be ten hours.

3430             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And my colleague, Commissioner French, asked you if you were prepared to make a commitment.  In order to be fair again, would you agree to a COL that 75 per cent of your news programming would be local, local in terms of being about Woodstock, the County of Ingersoll and the County of Oxford and would you agree to that COL?

3431             MR. SKI:  I thought the number was 50 per cent, earlier, but...

3432             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I thought it was 70.  I must say ‑‑ I thought you said, Mr. Roman, 70 per cent.

3433             MR. ROMAN:  About 70 is sort of what we would average in terms of Woodstock oriented.

3434             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Averaged over the ‑‑

3435             MR. ROMAN:  Yes.

3436             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And so my question is, because the last applicant was asked, would you agree to a COL to that effect?

3437             MR. SKI:  Yes, I believe we would.

3438             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And my final one is we were talking previously about your London station, that is BOB, but it appears that your Kitchener station has an even higher share in the Woodstock BBM area and it's hot AC, as opposed to soft AC.

3439             What's the overlap in the play list, what percentage?

3440             MR. SKI:  I'll get Rob Farina to answer that.

3441             MR. FARINA:  Sure.  The overlap in the play list there would probably be about 10 to 15 per cent.  Again, those formats are very different.  A hot AC format is a contemporary music‑based format targeted at young adults.  It's predominantly an 18 to 44 adult.

3442             A soft AC format is balanced between gold titles and contemporary and the contemporary titles are less of a CHR format or a hot AC chart format.  It's much lighter in the kinds of music and less, as I said earlier, it's more of a passive listening experience rather than a very up‑tempo in‑your‑face, which is what a hot AC would be.

3443             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3444             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Those are our questions.  Thank you very much ‑‑ excuse me. Not only did I forget your final word, which I'll give you a chance to, but Commissioner Cugini indicated she wanted to ask you questions, so I'll turn the floor over to her.

3445             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  That's perfectly all right.

3446             Your Woodstock Music Festival, is this something that currently exists or something that you would initiate?

3447             MR. SKI:  Duff.

3448             MR. ROMAN:  Well, the Woodstock Festival concept is an original idea, but we are partnering with the Woodstock Oxford Community Police.  They have an annual picnic event that we're going to leverage with them as partners and bring in artists that are soft adult contemporary, established artists.  Maybe a Kalan Porter, someone of that ilk, a Jann Arden, let's say, and then two or three emerging or developing artists that would benefit from the exposure and we would make sure that we would have promotion people, A&R people from the record labels, booking agents present to use that as a showcase for their talent and, of course, the station would get behind them in way possible.

3449             It's possible we might record event, but, remember, these artists are essentially developing and emerging.  It might be used for reference, but that's the purpose of the event.  The event is to be a celebration of Canadian soft adult contemporary musical artists.

3450             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So they will be Canadian artists exclusively.

3451             MR. ROMAN:  Yes.

3452             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And would this have the potential to become one of the CHUM syndicated programs that Mr. Farina was talking about earlier?

3453             MR. ROMAN:  I think there's that potential.  Essentially you go in cautiously with the idea that negotiating for performance rights or recording rights or networking rights is a lot different than simply doing a live concert in the environment that we envisage.

3454             We see this as very cross‑generational.  The whole point of it is with the Woodstock Oxford County Police is we think it will be well supervised and safe and a great environment for people to take in music that appeals to all generations.

3455             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

3456             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Have you got a final word?

3457             MR. SKI:  We do.

3458             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Go ahead.

3459             MR. SKI:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3460             Thank you, first of all, for the opportunity of being here to present this application to you this afternoon.

3461             We think that CHUM should be licensed for this new station in Woodstock for the following reasons:

3462             CHUM has expertise in operating successful stations in smaller markets that are an integral part of their community.

3463             We also operate all of these stations independently with the support that a large company can offer.

3464             Magic 104.7 will be locally managed, staffed and operated in Woodstock, providing a truly local radio station.

3465             Our news and information programming will be locally specific, locally produced, locally presented, increasing the diversity of news voices in the market.

3466             Magic 104.7 will make a significant contribution to Canadian Talent Development with an investments of $280,000 over the seven years.

3467             Our audience and economic research show a need for a new soft AC radio station that is relevant to the residents of Woodstock and Oxford County.

3468             And, finally, CHUM serves the communities that we're licensed to serve.

3469             Thank you very much.

3470             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.  We'll take a ten‑minute break now and resume with the next item.  Nous reprendrons dans 10 minutes.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1426 / Suspension à 1426

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1441 / Reprise à 1441

3471             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

3472             Madam Secretary, please call the next item.

3473             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

3474             We will now proceed with Item 5 on the agenda, which is an application by Newcap Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Woodstock.

3475             The new station would operate on frequency 104.7 megahertz, channel 284B, with an average effective radiated power of 3,200 watts.

3476             Mr. Rob Steele will introduce his colleagues.  And you have twenty minutes for your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRESENTATION

3477             MR. STEELE:  Thank you very much.

3478             Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, Mr. Vice‑Chair, Members of the Commission and Commission Staff.

3479             I'm Rob Steele, President of Newcap and before we begin our presentation I would like to introduce our team.

3480             To my left is Mark Maheu, executive vice‑president and chief operating officer of Newcap radio.

3481             Next to Mark is Steve Jones, our vice‑president of programming.  In the second row is Dave Murray, vice‑president of operations for Newcap and next to Dave is Jackie Boutilier, our director of human resources.

3482             We are pleased to be here to present our application to create new, truly local service to Woodstock, Ontario.  Markets like Woodstock, medium sized communities, are very familiar endeavours for Newcap Radio.

3483             We hold 66 licences in small and medium markets across the country, particularly in Newfoundland and Labrador, PEI and Alberta.

3484             Our roots are in small‑town radio. We started with AM stations Charlottetown, Thunder Bay and Newfoundland and Labrador.

3485             All this to say that Newcap Radio has a good understanding of what it takes to serve communities the size of Woodstock and be successful.

3486             There are five factors which I believe contribute to our success.  First is our emphasize on local service, the local news, information and community involvement necessary to attract listeners, community support and advertiser interest.

3487             Second is the use of research to pick the best programming orientation to meet community needs and interest.

3488             And third is the willingness to invest the necessary capital, human resources and effort to make a success of these station.

3489             Fourth is our sales training and innovative implementation focused on providing value to the advertisers.

3490             Fifth is the patience to wait for our plans to come to fruition.

3491             After reviewing the market and our capabilities as a radio company there is no question in our minds that we'd bring a vibrant, local radio service to the community of Woodstock and be successful over time.

3492             Newcap Radio has a renewed emphasis on high‑quality local programming and since the arrival of Mark Maheu last year we have restructured our business operations in many markets to put more focus and emphasis on local control and decision making and this has resulted in a better on‑air product for listeners and increased contributions by Newcap to the communities we serve.

3493             I would now like to ask Mark and our team to outline our plans for Woodstock in more detail.

3494             MR. MAHEU:  Thank you, Mr. Chair, Mr. Vice‑Chair and Commissioners.

3495             When the Commission issued a call for new applications to serve Woodstock we first asked ourselves whether the market could support the kind of locally focused program service that we believe Woodstock, Ontario deserves.  The answer was a resounding yes.

3496             Then we commissioned research to find the appropriate format for the market.

3497             Woodstock presents an interesting challenge to a broadcaster, much like any other suburban market in the shadow of larger markets across Canada.  It is a strong and growing economy, as has been pointed out by all of the applicants at this hearing.

3498             Within the city the population of just under 35,000, which is projected to grow by over four per cent over the next five years, and a central area population of 82,000 in the Woodstock central market area, the market is similar in size to Belleville, Ontario, which supports five local radio stations.

3499             With retail sales of over 478 million dollars in 2004 and Financial Post Market's projections of 15 per cent growth by 2009, there is more than enough local business to support local radio stations in Woodstock.

3500             On the other hand, the market's location provides both challenges and temptations. Woodstock receives all of the signals from London, many from Kitchener, several from Toronto and the signals from Tillsonburg, Ontario.

3501             85 per cent of the tuning is to out‑of‑market stations in a wide variety of formats. This is the major challenge.  The temptation is the proximity to London and Kitchener.

3502             Clearly, for a company like Corus Entertainment the attraction of a larger market where it already has strong stations as well as its disparate formats in Hamilton, Cambridge and even Toronto led to a more regional approach.  This has proven successful in attracting audience share in all of these markets ‑‑ in Woodstock, BBM research shows that Corus holds 36 per cent of all tuning in Woodstock, of which only 15 per cent comes from CKDK‑FM.

3503             This temptation of consolidating share from regional markets does not benefit Newcap Radio, since we have no other stations in nearby major markets.  We could not expect to challenge for audience share or be competitive in advertising with Corus, Standard or CHUM in London or CHUM and Rogers in Kitchener.  Clearly our proposed station will not have a strong enough signal in these markets.

3504             To be successful, Woodstock FM, as we are calling it, will have make its living in Woodstock.

3505             There are two approaches a suburban station facing strong out‑of‑market competition can make in choosing its format ‑‑ one is to pick a niche format that will be unique in the home market and can provide an alternative to larger markets ‑‑ for example the choice of smooth jazz by the Kirk Group out of Hamilton or Standard's choice for modern rock for this market.

3506             We do not believe that this is the way to under these circumstances.  First of all, there are already a variety of formats available in that market.  Secondly, our proposed signal in the larger markets would not be listenable and, third, our research and that of several other applicants demonstrates clearly that Woodstock needs local service, local news and other information.

3507             To make a service impact, we need to reach as many people as possible with the broadest possible format, differentiating ourselves with everything else that happens between the songs on the radio station.  In Woodstock this means a truly local orientation.

3508             At the same time, the choice of format should try to find the largest unserved audience group.

3509             This is why we asked Kassof Research to use their approach of measuring the popularity of a number of formats versus the public perception of their availability within the market. This allows us to have a scientific way of finding the largest unserved void in the marketplace and we have used this approach in all of the refocusing of stations that we have acquired and it has proven remarkably successful.

3510             In the case of Woodstock, Kassof presented with us two possibilities, classic hits and gold‑based adult contemporary.  The percentage of format void was similar for the two formats, 11 per cent for classic hits and 9 per cent for gold‑based adult contemporary.

3511             The two formats are somewhat similar, both relying on past hits for a significant part of their play list.  Classic hits with a stronger rock emphasis appeals a little more to men, while gold‑based AC appeals slightly more to women.

3512             We decided that from a diversity and sales point of view we would be better with a station that attracts women, since CKDK's classic rock has some overlap to classic hits and is more attractive to men.

3513             We also believe gold‑based AC is a better choice because CHUM Radio's London station BOB FM currently programs classic hits into the Woodstock market.  Their efforts are supported heavily by television advertising on their London TV station, which is watched by many in Woodstock.

3514             The CHUM application supports our choice of format, as does the application we heard this morning from Chris Byrnes.

3515             Given the multitude of signals of many formats available, we believe that our proposed projected share of 6 per cent of all hours tuned by persons 12 and over is realistic.

3516             I would now like to ask Steve Jones, our VP of programming for Newcap Radio, to outline what the station will sound like.

3517             MR. JONES:  Thanks, Mark.

3518             Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the Commission.

3519             Woodstock FM will be a blend of the pop and rock favourites of the past four decades.  40 per cent of the music comes from the 1980s, the time in which our core audience was forming its musical tastes.  20 per cent will come from each of the seventies and the nineties, featuring music and artists compatible with that eighties sound.

3520             We also will provide 20 per cent current music from the lighter side of the pop and rock spectrum.

3521             To be more specific, we'll zero in on Canadian artists, such as Sarah McLachlan, Gordon Lightfoot, Michael Buble, Bryan Adams, Blue Rodeo, The Guess Who, Jann Arden, Amanda Marshall and Bare Naked Ladies.

3522             We'll feature international artists like Elton John, The Eagles Fleetwood Mac, The Doobie Brothers and Phil Collins.

3523             The music mix will be bright and pop softer focused.  While we will play rock artists like Bruce Springsteen, Tom Cochrane, Tom Petty and Rod Stewart, we will air their mellower hits rather than the harder rock they also sometimes perform.

3524             Woodstock FM 104.7 will feature a daily all‑request hour for our listeners along with other programming that profiles the various aspects of our music.

3525             But while music is usually the focus of a format description such as this one, we are extremely proud that our application transcends musical descriptors.  The music format is important, but the core of our station focuses on local service to the residents of Woodstock.

3526             At Newcap we recognize that local service is both a good thing to do and a smart business approach.

3527             Woodstock is a vibrant and growing community that doesn't have its own radio station. Over the years the station that is licensed to Woodstock, CKDK‑FM, has moved away from local service and become a regional radio station serving primarily the London area.

3528             Our commitment is to bring a truly local radio station back to Woodstock, one dedicated 100 percent to the community with a commitment not to be lured away by the lucrative advertising dollars circulating in the London and Kitchener markets.

3529             The local commitment we are proposing for Woodstock makes good business sense. With all of the music choices available to radio listeners in Woodstock our strategic advantage will be that we will be the station to dial into for local weather and traffic conditions, rather than those in London on Kitchener.

3530             We will be where you'll hear about the local ball teams' summer evening games or local junior and other minor hockey games or tournaments held at the Southwood Arena.

3531             Woodstock FM will be where people tune for news reports on the Woodstock area rather than London or Kitchener.

3532             To accomplish this goal, we've created an aggressive plan to provide the market with 53 local newscasts each week, researched and compiled by our team of local reporters and hosted by local news journalists.

3533             Our newscasts will feature 75 per cent local content, dedicated exclusively to the news happenings in and around Woodstock.  The remaining 25 per cent will be other news and information that directly impacts the residents of the Woodstock market.

3534             In total, our local news team will create three and a half hours of news each week. This will be researched, edited and voiced by our local news team ‑‑ ensuring excellent coverage of local news and events.

3535             Our dedication to the community will go beyond news with eight daily local event features called "Woodstock Today" that will serve as a voice for nonprofit community groups.  Residents will find out about charity endeavours, happenings such as registration dates for minor sports teams, and church and nonprofit events.

3536             This is the type of information that helps to build stronger neighbourhoods and bonds communities and it's precisely the type of information that's not being broadcast presently.

3537             Because of the importance of the 401 corridor to the city, we'll use an airborne traffic service to keep our listeners up to date on the routes in and out of the Woodstock.

3538             Aside from the significant scripted spoken word content Woodstock FM will include a tremendous amount of local spoken content as part of our daily programming mandate.

3539             For example, our morning show will sound very different from morning shows emanating from London or Kitchener.  We envision a morning show that may only play four or five songs each hour.  Our emphasis will be, instead, on providing in‑depth coverage of Woodstock, talking to the decision‑makers, community leaders, politicians and others who help strengthen the community.

3540             With significant traffic and weather every ten minutes, the strong focus on news and on‑air staff members committed to Woodstock, we envision a very unique produce.

3541             MR. MAHEU:  Newcap Radio strongly believes that the kind of local involvement that Steve just described is the key to being successful in Woodstock.

3542             There's a lot going in the city and the area that gets very little coverage on the radio.

3543             Newcap is committed in its business plan to put the financial resources forward to ensure this new radio station delivers on its promise.  We see a new FM in Woodstock as a radio station that will have a live on‑air staff twenty hours a day through the week; a live on‑air staff in prime time on Saturdays and Sundays with local newscasts running seven days a week.

3544             Newcap will introduce a new standard of local programming to Woodstock, a standard that includes a emphasis on agribusiness in the area, reports and news about the automotive industry that the area relies on for many jobs, frequent reports on municipal affairs from taxes to community centres and much more.

3545             To be successful and deliver on our promise to listeners Newcap knows we must deliver an on‑air product that is as good or better than listeners can receive now from major broadcast companies in London or Kitchener and we are confident we can do that by providing a truly local Woodstock radio station.

3546             When we decided to apply for a Woodstock licence we wanted to generate interest and support for our proposal.  Now, this is difficult to do on short notice when you're not already operating in the market or nearby, so we decided to launch a website called woodstockfm.com to demonstrate to the people of the area what kind of service they could expect to find from Newcap Radio.

3547             We hired a Woodstock resident recently graduated from Fanshawe College, Mike Burns, to be our local reporter and post stories daily on the woodstockfm.com website.

3548             Since it's launch in April of this year, woodstockfm.com has provided a significant number of local news stories, almost none of them reported on CKDK.

3549             Over the past few months we've followed the negotiations to bring a new Toyota plant to Oxford County, the steelworkers strike in Ingersoll and the town council elections.

3550             CKDK's website indicates that their news content comes from CFPL‑AM in London.

3551             We believe that there is a great opportunity for a broadcaster willing to invest the necessary resources to provide a professional, locally oriented service in Woodstock.  We're familiar with markets of this size and the challenges they would face and we put together a very realistic business plan.  We project modest first year tuning of 5 per cent, given the overwhelming number of well‑established, well‑targeted and well‑financed radio stations flooding this market from broadcasters like CHUM, Standard, Corus and Rogers.

3552             We're willing to sustain the initial years' losses that we project and we have learned to be patient and we have the resources that will allow the kind of patience necessary.

3553             Our resources also allow us to make a substantial contribution to developing Canadian talent.  Our proposal of $700,000 over the term of the licence will make a significant difference to Canadian artists.

3554             We're willing to put forward this kind of commitment because we believe in the long‑term potential of smaller markets and, in particular, Woodstock's potential.

3555             We will provide $210,000 to FACTOR to support its worthy initiatives.  The Radio Starmaker Fund will receive $350,000 to help take emerging Canadian talent to the next level of success.  We will also provide $140,000 for a variety of local initiatives in cooperation with the Woodstock public and separate school boards.

3556             Newcap Radio believes that the reflection of the communities we serve is both good business and good corporate policy.

3557             To tell you a bit more about our approach to this important aspect of our business I would like to call on Jackie Boutilier. Jackie.

3558             MS BOUTILIER:  Thanks, Mark.

3559             Our stations across the country are well‑known for their strong community involvement. We believe that this is the right thing to do and it's the smart business approach.

3560             In the past you've heard of our activities in Badger, Newfoundland during their drastic floods, in Halifax during Hurricane Juan and our activities during the BCE crisis in Alberta.

3561             More recently, our Alberta stations have once more had the opportunity to make contributions.  Our radio stations across the province gathered together in the wake of the tragic RCMP shootings last March to create an awareness and fund‑raising campaign in support of the Fallen Officer's Fund.  Over 25,000 wristbands with the RCMP slogan were given out to our listeners in exchange for donations to the fund.  This project raised funds for the families of the officers and galvanized Albertans to express their collective grief, sympathy and outrage.

3562             At K‑Rock in Edmonton our morning team recently raised $15,000 in one morning after learning that the Legion cenotaph had been vandalized and ruined.  The money went to creating a new memorial for Canadian war veterans just in time for the celebrations marking the World War II victory in Europe.

3563             In most of the communities we serve we've set up a children's trust fund to help children in need of financial or other support and will do the same in Woodstock.

3564             At Newcap Radio we have taken a proactive approach to ensuring that our radio stations represent the demographic makeup of Canada. Each time we've appeared before you for a new station we've committed to launching a station with the workforce that reflects the community.  We are making that commitment here today as well.

3565             This approach and other efforts have meant substantial progress at Newcap to being more reflective in our workforce of Canada's diverse makeup.  This is a commitment that we all take seriously.

3566             MR. STEELE:  Mr. Chair, Mr. Vice‑Chair and members of the Commission, Newcap wants this opportunity to serve a part of the country that we have not been present in to date and we believe that Woodstock is a viable business opportunity as a stand‑alone operation, even if it will take some time and patience and we believe that our proposal represents the best use of 104.7 FM in Southwestern Ontario.

3567             The 82,000 people of the Woodstock central area will receive a new listening choice, one that consumer research demonstrates is in demand by listeners.

3568             More importantly, they will have a local radio service that focuses on the Woodstock central area as its first priority, not a secondary target of broadcasters focused on residents of London, Kitchener or Tillsonburg.

3569             We have a realistic business plan which recognizes the challenge in a community where over 85 per cent of tuning is to out‑of‑market stations and we have dedicated the resources necessary to provide a competitive professional radio station.

3570             Our commitment of $700,000 to the development of the Canadian talent is significant and our track record of strong local service and community involvement demonstrates that we can and will deliver on our promises.

3571             Without the marketing power of sister stations in London we must succeed as a local broadcaster here in Woodstock.

3572             Finally, we represent a new editorial voice in Woodstock and one focused on the local community.

3573             For these reasons we believe that our proposal represents the best use of 104.7 FM.

3574             Thank you for your attention and our team would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

3575             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Steele, and your team.

3576             Let me begin, and I want to thank you for essentially summarizing your supplementary brief in your opening statement.  By making reference to it it saves me flipping pages back and forth in your supplementary brief, because most of the questions I have come from that.

3577             You went through the process, which the supplementary brief details of how you arrived at format decision that you did.  I thought the logic that you set out was very clear on pages 3 and 4 of your presentation.

3578             But I guess it's a little difficult for me to differentiate between some of these ‑‑ it seems to be the AC with an adjective is a differentiated format, whether it's golden or soft or classic or whatever, and I wonder whether in the cases we have before us whether you could help me to understand whether and to what extent your format is different from, say, the formats that Byrnes Communications and CHUM Limited are offering in this proceeding.

3579             MR. MAHEU:  Mr. Chair, it's a little bit like Baskin Robbins.  There's 31 favours of AC.  They're all ice cream, but they're all slightly different in flavour.

3580             To be fair, the adult contemporary format that we are proposing, the softer adult contemporary or gold‑based adult contemporary is very similar, based on what I have been able to discern from the applications for Chris Byrnes and by CHUM. There are nuances and shades and degrees, an artist here or an artist there, but texturally and the essence of the sound of the radio station all three formats in our minds are very, very similar musically.

3581             Where the differences really come, and we believe the important difference for Woodstock, is not necessarily the music format choice, but equally as important is what happens, you know, between the songs in service to the community.

3582             But to answer your question directly they're very similar.

3583             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think that was my understanding, but you're far more expert in this there, so I'm glad you have to confirm that.

3584             Again, demographic numbers, 25, 54, woman, slight shades of that, the upper third, the lower third.

3585             Again, is your answer along similar lines there or is there actually an orientation that skews toward a different ‑‑ a gender and a portion of the 25 to 54 demographic?

3586             MR. MAHEU:  25 to 54, Mr. Chair, is the generally accepted sales demographic or the most popular one for radio.  AC tends to do very well in that demographic.

3587             Certain blends of AC ‑‑ Mr. Ski referred to it as life groups in CHUM's presentation. It's a very well‑known fact that two people who are 45 may have very different musical tastes.  Because they share an age doesn't mean necessarily they share an affinity for certain types of music.

3588             The proposed format, the gold‑based AC that we're putting forth for Woodstock, broadly is popular with 25 to 54 year olds, but the real heart of the format, the real strength of the format, of the affinity for it, is really in the 30 to 35 age bracket.  It spills both ways, but 30 to 50 would be more accurate characterization of where the strength of the format or the tuning strength is.

3589             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, your supplementary brief, as I understood it, and again you'll correct me if I'm wrong, indicated that the core group within that was actually women 45 to 54, did it not?

3590             MR. MAHEU:  That's ‑‑

3591             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The gold‑based AC.

3592             MR. MAHEU:  The gold‑based AC, women 45 to 54 is the ‑‑ if you break it down into isolated groups between men and woman in nine to ten‑year increments, that is the cell that will do extremely well, but generally speaking the appeal of the format is more women than men ‑‑ at least the one we're proposing ‑‑ and it has strength from about 30 to about 50.  That's where the real heart of the strength of the format.

3593             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Would it be pushing my luck to try and get answer to the question as to why you think it's the number one cell?  Is this ‑‑ how did you come to that conclusion, that the 45 to 54 female demographic is the number one cell and your core, as you put it, that you're targeting?

3594             MR. MAHEU:  I'll let Steve Jones address it separate.  It certainly comes from the research that we had conducted by Mark Kassof, which breaks the listened‑to‑most factor by demographic. Go ahead, Steve.

3595             MR. JONES:  Well, one of the interesting things that came out of that study was we asked about dissatisfaction with radio presently and we asked about preferences to various formats and we asked about interest in a local radio station and it was that specific demographic that was both the least satisfied presently, the most interested in local radio, and also expressed an affinity for the gold‑based AC format.

3596             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  So it was built up that way rather than by providing a sampling of listening to a sample and then discerning that on a scale of one to five that cell, so to speak, preferred a certain sound over another sound.

3597             MR. JONES:  Well, we did test various forms of music that way, but the correlation that came about was that those same people expressed a strong positive interest in having a local radio station in Woodstock.

3598             So the demographics all match up between dissatisfaction and desire.

3599             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  So that basically was derived from the dissatisfaction, what you call the format void.

3600             MR. JONES:  Correct.

3601             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  Okay.

3602             Let me turn to your local programming.  You've committed by COL in the application form to 42 hours of local programming.  And of that how much would be local‑station produced programming?

3603             MR. MAHEU:  I'm going to let Steve break it out for you in terms of the amount of local programming being station produced.

3604             MR. JONES:  In essence all of our programming will be locally produced.  As CHUM also reiterated earlier, there may be instances where there's opportunities to pick up the odd syndicated program, but that's not part of our overall strategy.

3605             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's fine.  So we can take it that the 42 hours will, with certain possibly minor exceptions be station‑produced.

3606             MR. MAHEU:  Absolutely.

3607             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, you offered 53 weekly four‑minute newscasts for a total of three and a half hours of news per broadcast week; is that correct?

3608             MR. MAHEU:  That's correct.

3609             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And of that you mentioned that 75 per cent would be local content and I take it you mean Woodstock/Oxford County oriented by that.

3610             MR. MAHEU:  Yeah, Woodstock central area.  Ingersoll, Woodstock, Oxford County.

3611             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But Woodstock central area?

3612             MR. MAHEU:  Yes.

3613             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So that would be, if you do the math, 75 per cent of three and a half hours, how many hours does that work out to?

3614             MR. MAHEU:  About two and a half.

3615             THE CHAIRPERSON:  2.5 hours.  And the remaining would be Southwestern Ontario, Canadian and international, I gather, right?

3616             MR. MAHEU:  Right.

3617             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Scheduling of those newscasts, daytime, weekday, weekend, time of day?  How would you ‑‑ when are those going to be scheduled?

3618             MR. MAHEU:  Steve?

3619             MR. JONES:  Our proposal includes news on the half hours through morning drive as well as key newscasts in the midday at noon and the afternoon at four and five and the schedule on the weekends would include a nine ‑‑ eight, nine, noon and five, so four newscasts each weekend day.

3620             THE CHAIRPERSON:  How many staff will you have involved in the news gathering and production?

3621             MR. MAHEU:  Dave, do you want to cover that?

3622             MR. MURRAY:  Right. There's three full‑time and one full‑time equivalent in terms of number of part‑time people, so 3. something.

3623             THE CHAIRPERSON:  How large a staff would the entire station have?

3624             MR. MURRAY:  There will be 17 full‑time equivalents, about 22 individuals in total.

3625             THE CHAIRPERSON:  17 FTEs, 22 individuals.  Okay.

3626             You mention in the supplementary brief that a number of categories of programs, public affairs reports, listener opinion polls, music specialty programs, community events updates.

3627             Do you have any sense of when those would be scheduled?

3628             MR. MAHEU:  I'll let Steve talk about it in some detail to give you a sense, but we propose to have a lot of that going on throughout the different day parts, throughout prime time and throughout the week.

3629             And, Steve, do you want to touch on the specifics of some of those?

3630             MR. JONES:  Certainly.  Our public affairs programming, our listener opinion polls would run ‑‑ listener opinion polls would be basically through the week starting in the morning with a topic, inviting our listeners to call in and contribute their opinions which would then be edited for selected playback the next day.

3631             The public affairs reports, community events updates and "Woodstock Today" features would run scheduled in a balanced form throughout the daytime and into the evening and they would run seven days a week.

3632             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Do you have any other plans with regard to spoken word programming that you haven't covered or I haven't covered in these questions?

3633             MR. MAHEU:  We do.  One of them I would like to tell you about is a ‑‑ I mentioned it in our opening remarks, with a little bit more of a focus on agribusiness in the area and there's not a lot, if anything, on radio right now that really addresses the needs of the agricultural community and farmers, at least coming out of the Woodstock area, and we're proposing a long‑form program, a weekly program, which would air on Saturday mornings, likely 6 until 8, which would be a two‑hour weekly agri‑news update focused on what's going on in that area of business, what's going on specifically in the area of Oxford County.

3634             We do that type of programming extensively Out West and a number of our radio stations, small and large market.  We find it very successful.

3635             We've also kind of built some of the revenue that that will generate into our business plan as well.  That's where we get, you know, half of our national revenue that we're projecting modestly in the first year is going to come from ag and ag‑related business.

3636             So everybody wins.  It's a way for us to generate revenue for the radio station and also provides a new distinct service that isn't really happening right now in Woodstock/Oxford County area. So that's a couple of hours a week right there on Saturday mornings.

3637             Steve, I know you have a couple of other things that we're planning to do.

3638             MR. JONES:  I think it's also worth noting that our traffic and weather coverage is planned to be fairly extensive, especially for a radio station in a market of this size.

3639             It's important to recognize both the weather nuances of Woodstock, being in a snow belt, and the geographic location on the busy 401 corridor.

3640             So we estimate, you know, looking at the weekly schedule, about five hours, just over five hours of weather and traffic information a week as well and that's, you know, that's set aside from the unscripted and unscheduled announcer talk that we envision will be primarily about the community and what's going on in the community.

3641             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  So if you were to tally up the time, the amount of spoken word in hours per week on your station, what would that be in all, beginning with the three and a half hours of news that you spoke of?

3642             MR. JONES:  Including that three and a half hours we estimate around 19 to 20 hours a week of spoken word content.

3643             It's hard to quantify a lot of the announcer talk and it will vary week to week depending on ‑‑ you know, sometimes before Christmas you may end up doing a major food drive where you take over the radio station with entirely spoken word for much of the broadcast day.  And other times there may be less going on.

3644             But we estimate about 19 to 20 hours a week or about 15 per cent of our broadcast day.

3645             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, what are you including in that?  How short a segment would be the minimum that you're including in that?  Like, an announcement of a song, would that be spoken word?

3646             MR. JONES:  No, no.  Talking specifically about spoken word that is relevant to the community beyond just station identification and announcer talk.

3647             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  So what would be a minimum segment of that that you're counting?

3648             MR. JONES:  Some of the 30‑second public affairs announcements, PSAs.

3649             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  So if we tally up the 30‑second and more spoken word segments related to community events and local issues, you would say in the 19 to 20 hours?

3650             MR. JONES:  19.3 hours.

3651             THE CHAIRPERSON:  19.3 hours, to be precise.

3652             MR. JONES:  But I don't want to be too specific, because it could vary.

3653             THE CHAIRPERSON:  In terms of the stories that you're going to cover, you're new to the area, you're experienced broadcasters in other parts of the country.

3654             What kind of mechanism do you intend to use to put you in touch with the community and the population?  For example, I don't know, advisory committees are sometimes used and mechanisms like that.

3655             Do you have any ideas as to how to become rooted in the community and get the information flow going that you need?

3656             MR. MAHEU:  Mr. Chair, we would propose that Woodstock would be very similar to how we operate our businesses in any other market, whether it's in Wabush, Labrador or Athabasca.

3657             What we try to do and endeavour to do in each and every market is to hire great people and people are what our business is all about and we give these people a great deal of trust and we give them a great deal of latitude.

3658             The people in our marketplaces ‑‑ and a couple of other applicants today had also mentioned it and we follow the same philosophy ‑‑ where there's an expectation ‑‑ especially the at the management level of our radio station, that these people are involved in the community, that they're part of the fabric of the community, that they make themselves available to community groups, not‑for‑profit organizations.  And all of them do.

3659             And we have a great degree of confidence that Woodstock would be no different.  Our staff is going to be hired, hopefully, from in any around the Woodstock area, but, if necessary, we will recruit people from other parts of the country and they will move to Woodstock and make it their home and be part of the community and put down roots.

3660             And we feel that that is really the best way to begin to understand what the needs of the community are.

3661             Advisory councils, I think, sometimes do serve a good role, only if in fact you're willing to listen to the recommendations.  I think we can accomplish the same thing in Woodstock in a less formal way by joining service clubs, being part of the community, getting on some volunteer boards and that, along with having a dialogue with a lot of customers that we're doing business with, I think we'll have our finger on the pulse of what's going on in the area and use that feedback well.

3662             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you. That's a very clear answer.

3663             You know, we're tending and there's a general emphasis, you may have seen it in the government's response to the Lincoln Report and in the atmosphere, a concern about ‑‑ perhaps it's the minority Parliament that we have, and politics is local and an increasing concern about local orientation and local communities having programming that they require and your application feeds into this as well.

3664             The Commission has in some cases decided to proceed to ensure that that happens by a condition of licence and so a number of the applicants have been asked the questions regarding what COLs would you be prepared to accept relative to your local programming?

3665             MR. MAHEU:  Well, if we were not prepared to live up to the commitments that we've made then we wouldn't have sat here before you today and made them, so we're certainly prepared to honour the commitments that we've made and if the Commission feels that an order to ensure some sort of condition we would be prepared to accept that.

3666             Our proposal for the kind of radio station we're talking about in Woodstock, even without the condition, if there were no conditions, we're going to have to do this ‑‑ and this is the interesting thing about the market, where it's different than a big competitive market ‑‑ this is not a rating in share sale.

3667             In order to generate revenue and be successful financially in a market like Woodstock you have to dive into the community and be part of it and you have to deliver more than another 12 in a row commercial free, because that's not what they're buying and it's not what they need.

3668             What they want in the marketplace in Woodstock, listeners want a place that they can call home in the morning on a clock radio, on a morning where it's snowed heavily overnight and they want to know what's going on, whether the school bus is going to be running today or whether the road is closed or there has been another major accident on the 401 corridor somewhere between Woodstock and Ingersoll and those are the kinds of things that if we do that ‑‑ and it costs money and it takes a little more effort and it's a little harder work to do ‑‑ but we know if we do that we will be rewarded because we're going to be able to go and do business with people in Woodstock and we're going to be selling them an association with something a lot more than the latest Celine Dion single or the new Shania Twain hit.

3669             We're going to play those too, but we're going to need to do a lot more than that.

3670             So really the way the Commission guarantees that a licensee, if ‑‑ like Newcap, if we were lucky enough to be licensed, is if want to make any money in the market, if we want this endeavour to be viable financially, we're going to have to do it and we're prepared to do whatever it takes to make this work and we'll roll up our sleeves and we'll work hard at it.

3671             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I know that sometimes COLs feel like you're compelling us to do things that business sense would require us to do in any case, but all broadcasters do not see it that way all the time and hence COLs come into being.

3672             Again, could you suggest which elements of your local programming would you feel comfortable accepting COLs on?

3673             MR. MAHEU:  Absolutely comfortable on accepting condition of licence for the amount of news we've proposed, no problem at all.  Condition of licence on our CTD requirement that we put forward, no problem at all.

3674             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Local news?

3675             MR. MAHEU:  Absolutely, yes.  And that's the only way we're going to be successful, so absolutely.

3676             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Thank you.

3677             Turning briefly to your CTD, you've set out the initiatives very clearly, so I have no question on those.

3678             The 20,000 to three initiatives: Quality musical instruments to needy students of 5,000; five annual music scholarships, 5,000 per year; and supporting Woodstock school music festivals 10,000 a year.

3679             I guess the question was will all the monies for these initiatives be paid out directly by Newcap or will funding be given directly to the Woodstock public and separate school boards to allocate?  What's your plan on that?

3680             MR. MAHEU:  We'll work with the school boards, but we'll pay the money directly to them and they'll disburse it.

3681             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Time‑honoured political Canadian question.  How are you going to split the funding between the public and separate school boards?

3682             MR. MAHEU:  Absolutely equally.

3683             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good answer.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

3684             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Of the five music scholarships can you give us some indication of how you think the students will be selected and the committee that will jury the performers and so on?  Are you that down that road that far yet?

3685             MR. MAHEU:  We're not down that far, but what we wanted to do is make sure that (a) the money was there and if we were fortunate enough to be licensed we'll get into some really serious discussions with the school boards to see where the need is for the money, where it can do the most good, and work with them to make sure it gets there.

3686             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Out of the $10,000 festival money, how many festivals a year do you estimate that will cover?

3687             MR. MAHEU:  It will probably cover three or four.  It's largely going to be to be able to make sure that the kids involved had instruments. Transportation sometimes is an extra burden or a cost that schools are reluctant or unable to pick up.  So we're going to try to fill in those gaps where we can.

3688             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  And I assume there, too, the money is split down the middle?

3689             MR. MAHEU:  Equally.

3690             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Thanks. Have you had discussions or arrangements entered into with the boards yet on this or, again, is that too early?

3691             MR. MAHEU:  No.

3692             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Discussions, I imagine, would not have been too early.

3693             MR. MAHEU:  No, no, this is ‑‑

3694             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are they intervening in support of your application?

3695             MR. MAHEU:  No, they are not, no. This is what we would like to do.  We wanted to have something that was local, that was a little bit different.  Everybody has their idea of the best way to develop Canadian talent and all the applications are different in the way that they spend local money.

3696             We have a lot of Canadian talent development initiatives across the country for various licences and acquisitions we've made and we're into a lot of different things.

3697             In a market size of Woodstock it ‑‑ many times, based on our experience out west some of these smaller communities do not have the resources that larger communities have and they live in the shadow of larger communities, they're not able to take advantage of the some of the things the big communities offer.

3698             We feel that in a smaller market like Woodstock, putting some real dollars into the hands of the schools would be the most appropriate way to start to fan the flames of younger people being interested in music, continuing in a music career or getting interested in a career in music.

3699             It's not a million dollars, but it's a start and it's a way, I think, that ‑‑ schools now, the way the budgets are, a lot of this is being cut, we're finding, across the country.  Textbooks and other things are taking priority and music programs are being cut, so we believe that this money will be welcomed and we'll find a good home for it.

3700             THE CHAIRPERSON:  On overall Canadian content I notice that, unlike a number of the applicants, you've basically stuck to the regulatory requirement, the minimum of 35 per cent, and not gone to 40 per cent.  I take it that's correct.

3701             Do you have any thoughts you want to offer in that regard?

3702             MR. MAHEU:  As always, Mr. Chair, the 35 per cent is a minimum requirement and we will certainly do 35 or better.  We've committed to doing 35.

3703             We do feel that in this format that 35 is an appropriate figure and we feel that combined with our $700,000 in CTD was a ‑‑ was very fair.

3704             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

3705             Your financial projections appear to be of the group of applicants here today the most cal it modest, call it pessimistic, if you like.

3706             Your break‑even is latest and your share of tuning is among the lowest.

3707             I wonder why that is.  Not that you can speak for the others, I'm sure, but answering why you think you can only achieve a 6 share and a break‑even only in the seventh year.

3708             MR. MAHEU:  Well, there are a number of things and I'll try to keep them brief and concise.

3709             We have a great number of radio stations that operate in markets the size of Woodstock or smaller, so we have very good real life experience about what it takes and what it costs to operate a radio service in smaller markets.

3710             We all know the road to heck is paved with good intentions and there's an old saying that, you know, things like this always tend to take twice as long as you think and cost twice as much and you find that out too late.

3711             And there are some endeavours across the country that have been licensed that have found that out, unfortunately.

3712             We believe that what we presented to you in terms of our business plan is modest.  We would concede that it is probably on the scale of close to a kind of worst case scenario, but that's the way we look at it going in, because we want to know in our heart of hearts how much exposure we have here worst case.

3713             If it takes longer than we think, if it doesn't happen as fast as we think, that way we're not surprised.  And we also don't want to be tempted and fool ourselves into believing that we can do it better than anybody else and we'll do it quicker and, sure, in four years we'll make money and find out that it's getting a little tougher and then the temptation is oh, you know, what can we start to cut back on and what can we take away?

3714             We cannot do that in this case because the kind of programming commitment that we've made to you ‑‑ and by making it to you we're promising the market ‑‑ and I don't worry about you holding us accountable, I worry about the people of Oxford County and Woodstock holding us accountable for what we said we're going to do.

3715             So in order to make sure that we can deliver on that, we wanted to run the numbers on a worst case scenario that, you know ‑‑ and this doesn't take into account the economy all of a sudden getting soft or anything else.  This is all things kind of being equal going forward.

3716             It's going to be a tough grind.  It really is.  As good as we might be and as large as we might be as a broadcasting company.  We're going to be there alone.  We don't have sister stations to lean on in other markets, to share resources or anything else.

3717             We're going to have to set up shop there, capitalize it, and operate in the shadow of a bigger market and the broadcasters that are doing business in and around that area now aren't going to walk away and go, "Well, Newcap's in Woodstock.  We better stop calling on clients there or we better stop going to those festivals and doing those promotions."

3718             We expect it's going to be competitive, so can we do a little better than we proposed?  We hope so.  But we ran the numbers based on what we knew we would have to work with as a minimum and if it's better, so be it.  But it is modest.

3719             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  I guess one thought that had occurred to me, and you can comment on it if you like, is again the chicken/egg of programming dollars and rating points.

3720             You get the listeners if you spend the money to do the programming and, again, your ratios of programming to your revenues and of programming expenses to your total operating expenses are not that the highest among the applicants here and I don't know whether you want to comment on that in terms of part of reason for the share being slightly the more modest amount of programming expenses.

3721             MR. MAHEU:  Well, we ran the numbers based on what we thought it would cost us to deliver the kind of service that we promised for the market.

3722             It's nice to see at least we didn't come in last as the percentage of ‑‑ the way that calculation was done, but our programming expenses are certainly lower than some.

3723             Some of it may have to do with ‑‑ and I'm not sure about this ‑‑ but different companies account for things different ways and certain budget categories contain things that are found in other categories for other companies.

3724             You know, in terms of our programming expenses, we believe ‑‑ and we've run the numbers ‑‑ that the money that we've put into the budget for programming will cover the costs of what we're intending to do in the marketplace.

3725             If there was any place that you could say that we're being conservative or cautious in terms of how much money we're spending, it might be in sales, ad and promo.  That number is low.

3726             What we did not put in there is we intend to do some promotion for the radio station and so on that we're going to trade or do on a contra basis with different companies and so that saves a cash component that, you know, you might see another $100,000 in there and that brings the numbers up a little bit more, so this does not include things that we'll do on a non‑cash basis.

3727             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  In your letter to the Commission where you give us the information on sources of advertising revenues, you estimated that only five per cent of the revenues would come from local radio stations and do you mean CKDK?

3728             MR. MAHEU:  Yes, Mr. Chair.

3729             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.  Okay.

3730             MR. MAHEU:  There's not a lot of business, as we understand it, being done by CKDK in Woodstock and the area.

3731             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So that the 90 per cent that are new advertisers, including other media, include advertisers who are currently advertising on stations that reach the Woodstock audience.

3732             MR. MAHEU:  There are many clients, many potential advertisers in Woodstock, Ingersoll, Oxford County, that are not advertising on radio, especially on London radio, because of the rate structure and they're also paying for a lot of wasted reach.

3733             In other words, if you're a car dealer in Woodstock and you're running spot radio time on BOB FM or FM 96 or whatever, you're reaching an awful lot of people that are going to be loathe to drive to Woodstock to shop for a car, so you're paying for that reach that you can't use.

3734             They're not on the radio right now. They're finding alternative sources.  We're hoping that we can bring a new offering and a new opportunity for them to advertise on radio and we believe there's quite a bit of business out there if there's a radio station that is really focused on the Woodstock marketplace and is priced appropriately.

3735             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What kind of rates do you expect to be charging out there?

3736             MR. MAHEU:  Well, in our business plan we put forward our first year's revenues are based on the sale of 19,000 minutes in the first year, which is really only going to be about 40 per cent of the inventory being sold and we're expecting and we're basing our business plan on a return of $32 a minute.

3737             So if you break that down on a 16 ‑‑ you know, $16 a 30‑second spot basis, it's pretty inexpensive and it will probably open up at less than that and build over time.

3738             But it's going to take a little time.  You know, we're going to have to talk to some of these customers.  It's been so long since they have been on radio or used radio as an advertising vehicle we just can't pop into town, open our doors and say, "Here we are.  Come and get it."

3739             We're going to really have to ‑‑ and I think Mr. Blundell from CHUM talked about this. We operate on the same philosophy, that we want to partner with customers, we need to understand what their needs and wants are and we have to show them how our medium is as effective or more effective than other mediums, how they can be combined and how they can get biggest bang for the dollar.  And we're going to have to start small and work our way up.

3740             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What I gathered from the previous presentation was his rates are going to about 50 per cent higher than yours.

3741             MR. MAHEU:  Well, that's a ‑‑ ours is based on what we believe we can do and we don't have infrastructure in place and I'm sure CHUM has client relationships, some in Woodstock or in London through television and radio that maybe they can rely on to help them get to where they want to be sooner than we would be able to get to, coming in as a brand‑new entity.

3742             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

3743             MR. MAHEU:  So we've got more work to do.

3744             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So the reason that the 5 per cent of local radio stations is so low is that you ‑‑ is that the kind of advertisers you're going to charge $16 to are really not advertising on CKDK right now.

3745             MR. MAHEU:  That's right.

3746             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you have a sense of what the range of their equivalent spot would be to your $16?

3747             MR. MAHEU:  No, I don't have accurate ‑‑ I could guess, but I would say it's considerably more.

3748             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  Okay.

3749             On shares, again, in your supplementary brief and you mention it again, that the share of 18 to 64 tuning, which was what the analysis in the section of format was based on, gave you a nine share after launch and essentially ordered the stations heard in the market quite differently from the twelve‑plus shares, where, for example, in the twelve‑plus you see Tillsonburg and CHYM at the top of the tuning list, but when you look at your 18 to 64 share they're much farther down.

3750             Do you have any reason for why that would be?

3751             MR. MAHEU:  If I understand what you're saying is your question ‑‑

3752             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I guess my question is that the 18 to 64 share that is in your supplementary brief in support of the choice of the gold‑based AC has an ordering now and after launch of market share in the 18 to 64 demographic that is quite different from the twelve‑plus tuning that we see.

3753             I guess you were commenting on twelve‑plus tuning, were you not?

3754             MR. MAHEU:  Well, we referred to the 18 to 64 and the numbers we show now and then after launch are based on research that we've done.

3755             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.

3756             MR. MAHEU:  And it's based on the Kassof Research study, so we see that before the launch CKDK has a 16 ‑‑ 16 per cent share of tuning 18 to 64 in the research and after launch will have 11 and ‑‑ is that the chart you're looking at?  Page 9 of the supplementary brief?

3757             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, that one is at page 10, actually.

3758             MR. MAHEU:  Okay.

3759             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But that's very different from the twelve‑plus tuning in the market for all BBMs 2004.

3760             So when you say from the research, I guess one question would be what is the "now" column based on?

3761             MR. JONES:  There maybe differences in methodology that result in slightly different numbers ‑‑

3762             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.

3763             MR. JONES:  ‑‑ between the BBM and the research.  Is that what we're getting at?

3764             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  I guess I'm wondering what the source of the research figures are and the choice of that particular demographic 18 to 64, which, I suppose, it's a demographic, I guess, as is anything, but twelve‑plus is what's normally used and your submission was based on twelve‑plus and your speech and your presentation today referred to the twelve‑plus, the six per cent that you were seeking to achieve.

3765             MR. MAHEU:  Yes, that is what we predict to be our BBM share once the radio station is up and running.  The reason obviously we were in the supplementary brief looking at 18 to 64 is that that's the group that we surveyed.

3766             We didn't survey anybody under 18 because one of the things we had in mind for this particular market was that it was small ‑‑

3767             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  So what you're saying is that's the share of the actual universe of responders to your questioning.

3768             MR. MAHEU:  That's correct.  And then we translate ‑‑

3769             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  It isn't ratings agency ‑‑

3770             MR. MAHEU:  No.

3771             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ derived. Okay.  That clears that up for me.

3772             Based on that group you came up with a view that you would be tied for third in the market.  Okay.  I understand that.

3773             Now, my colleague asked the previous group the question I'm going to ask you and the question is if an alternative frequency were found for Tillsonburg in this market and you were licensed would you be satisfied to accept a licence with Tillsonburg having a frequency in market?

3774             MR. MAHEU:  We would not have a problem with it.  They're serving their constituency, we would be serving ours.  I'm assuming the signals wouldn't overlap that much.

3775             And we're not going to be doing business in the Tillsonburg market because we're not going to be able to get in there, so we wouldn't have a problem with that at all.

3776             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Those are my questions.  Thank you very much your succinct answers.

3777             I don't know whether my colleagues have any questions.

3778             Yes.  Commissioner Cram.

3779             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

3780             I just wanted to get the spoken word numbers.  I think I'm lost here.

3781             The morning show, that morning show that you're going to have where there's four to five songs per hour, do you count that amongst your spoken word or do you count certain parts of it amongst your ‑‑

3782             MR. JONES:  We're counting certain parts of it amongst our spoken word.

3783             So if the morning show were playing four or five songs an hour the parts we're not counting are where they're talking about what songs were just played or what songs are coming up or the clever announcer banter that traditionally happens on the radio.

3784             What we are including there is approximately ten minutes per hour of content that might include the ringette coach coming in to talk about registration for their team or the mayor, who we heard earlier, has an interest in being on the radio and we would love to have him as part of our morning show, mayors of nearby communities, community leaders and people who can make a difference.  A lot of interaction with the community.

3785             So that ten minutes an hour is in there.

3786             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So how long is that morning show going to be?

3787             MR. JONES:  It would run from five a.m. to ten a.m.

3788             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Five hours.

3789             MR. JONES:  Yes.

3790             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So fifteen minutes every day, then, from that morning show.

3791             MR. JONES:  To clarify, though, our numbers only include 6 a.m. on on the eighteen‑hour clock.

3792             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Oh, right.

3793             MR. JONES:  But the morning show would start at five.

3794             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  Then you said you had, and I read on page 13 that you have 3. hours of news weekly, but then I thought I heard you say, Mr. Jones, that traffic and weather was going to be five hours a week.

3795             MR. JONES:  That's additional traffic outside of the newscasts.

3796             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.

3797             MR. JONES:  So if the news is running at the top and bottom of the hour in the morning show, there would be four other opportunities during the hour where there would be a structured news and ‑‑ weather and traffic together opportunity.

3798             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  So the 3. hours of news, to which there would be a COL, would exclude traffic and weather reports isolated by themselves without news.

3799             MR. JONES:  Yes, that's what's been discussed, yes.

3800             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Because the COL, I guess if it included ‑‑ well, I guess it doesn't matter.  Traffic and weather.  Just the 3.5 hours of news, weather, sports on a scheduled basis.

3801             MR. JONES:  Yes.

3802             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  Thank you very much.  Thank you Mr. Chair.

3803             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank you very much.

3804             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  What about their three minutes?

3805             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's now our standard line.  You see, you need other Commissioners.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

3806             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  He has great suits but we just can't keep him on the program.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

3807             MR. MAHEU:  If I could take on behalf of Newcap thirty seconds to (a) thank you very much for hearing our application today.  It's been a pleasure.  And thank you for your attention and your questions.

3808             Why Newcap is the best choice for 104.7 in Woodstock.  Very simply.  We bring a new editorial voice, a brand new voice to Woodstock that is not there right now.  So if we were licensed there is a brand new voice in the marketplace for people to listen to.

3809             We have the financial resources to do what it takes to stay with it.  The economy is great now, things are rolling along, but there's always the chance where things may not be as good as they are today.  Newcap Radio has the financial resources to live up to our promises, carry them through and deliver to the people of Woodstock and Oxford County.

3810             We're prepared to commit $700,000 in cash over the period of the seven‑year licence, $100,000 a year, to the development of Canadian talent and we've talked about that earlier.

3811             We promise you a focus on Woodstock, Oxford County and Ingersoll.  We don't have an option to be a regional station or to combo up with other operations.  We don't have them.  We're going to be stand alone and we're going to focus on the needs and wants of listeners in Woodstock each and every day.

3812             And our experience and our commitment to small markets across Canada where we have practical experience in markets this size and smaller, we believe that makes Newcap the very best choice and we hope that you see it that way too.

3813             Thank you very much.

3814             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Madam Secretary?  We'll take a break now for ten minutes.

3815             Do we have the other groups present?  Okay, great.  And then we'll proceed with the next item.  Thank you.  Nous reprendrons dans 10 minutes.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1543 / Suspension à 1543

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1555 / Reprise à 1555

3816             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.  À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.  Madam secretary, would you call the next item please.

3817             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

3818             We will now proceed with Item 6 on the agenda, which is an application by Sound of Faith Broadcasting to amend the license of radio programming undertaking CJFH‑FM Woodstock.

3819             The licensee proposes to amend the license by changing the frequency from 94.3 Megahertz channel 232LP to 104.7 Megahertz, channel 284A.

3820             Dr. Robert Reid will introduce his colleagues and you have twenty minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION/PRÉSENTATION

3821             DR. REID:  Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.  We were a little taken back by the fact that we thought it was going to be tomorrow, but we're here, and some of our colleagues aren't here.  But Will Rooen has been kind enough to come from St. Catharines to be here with us and Will has been with us for ten years as we sought to develop the Christian radio station for Woodstock, London and Kitchener.

3822             We've heard a lot about Woodstock today from a lot of people.  I'd like to take you on a little tour of Woodstock and I don't know whether the Commissioners can see that, but I hope they can.  Okay.  Let's go.

3823             So this is the Welcome to Woodstock logo with our sister in Sylvania, Ohio.  This is the Snow Princess.  The story is told of Mr. Dent going to New York City where he met an actress.  In the middle of New York City she said, "Oh, yes, my husband, Clark Gable, has been there, he knows the Snow Princess."

3824             The oldest church in town is Old St. Paul's.  And that's our Museum Square and City Square.  This was the original town hall, and it's modeled after Woodstock, England.

3825             This is where our distinguished mayor spends most of his time, at the City Hall.  We harken back to Bernadette Smith.  Probably you don't know Bernadette Smith, but she was the first female mayor in Canada and she presided in our city hall.

3826             This is our court house, our library.  This is a unique structure.  Who's ever heard of a light house in the middle of a land‑locked city.  The Ukrainian Catholic monastery was established there probably 50 years ago and this is their present structure, which is basically a tourist attraction.  You go up the centre in an elevator and come down the outside circular stairway and there's a display of icons of artwork from around the world.

3827             This is the Ukrainian Catholic church where they celebrated a thousand years of Christianity in 2000.

3828             Lest you should think that all our churches are old, this one was built with four million dollars in 2003 and this one was built in 2003.  Both of them very modern complexes.

3829             This our community complex.  Two ice pads, gymnastics, baseball and soccer fields.  My wife was on the board when this was created and my daughters were certainly instrumental in playing and doing gymnastics for 15 years.  So we as a community are very proud of this complex.

3830             I was involved in 2003 with the summer games, which we utilized this facility, as well as London, Ontario.

3831             This is Fanshawe College, the Woodstock branch of that London institution.  That's our place of highest learning in Woodstock.

3832             This is Pittock Lake and the dam is the dammed up Thames River.  In the old days we used this for the rowing club, and as I'm a native St. Catharines, you know, everybody growing up in St. Catharines has to be a rower.

3833             Now it's the home of the sailing club.  And I'm a Rotarian and we we've just built two dragon boats, so it's a dragon boat course for August of this year.

3834             This is Southside Park in the middle of Woodstock.  It's a beautiful facility.  We will cover all of the events that occur there.  The pavilion and the pond.  And this is Southside Bowling, and you may think what ‑‑ who is really interested in lawn bowling.  The Canadian championships of lawn bowling will be here in August for the whole of Canada.  As well as lawn bowling, we have outdoor tennis and two swimming pools.

3835             This is our soccer fields.  We have many of those.  With 2,500 young people signed up annually, it's a big event.

3836             This is the Woodstock General Hospital.  I'm an orthopaedic surgeon and I spent about 30 years there.  As you see at the bottom, that's our sign for the new hospital, and just before the last election we were ready to go.  The whole city was just brimming with anticipation and then we made the terrible mistake of electing a conservative in a liberal government, so I think that whole thing is on hold until the next election.  And then they will suddenly roll out the money and say, "Here's your new hospital."

3837             This is Woodingford Lodge.  It's the community senior citizens nursing home.  It's still under construction.  We have the old lodge downtown.  This is the new site and the new construction.

3838             This is the Meadows Golf Course, and you're going to say, ho hum, another golf course, but that's also the proposed site of the new Toyota plant, just down at the end of our street.  And everybody in Woodstock is anticipating tremendous economic growth if and when this comes there and we're certainly cheering for it.

3839             Now, a few of the needs in the ‑‑ in Woodstock.  This is public housing and that's a basic necessity.  We have to have public housing.  Another great need is a pregnancy centre, and you may ask why.

3840             Because these two ladies sit behind their desk and they say Oxford County is the teen pregnancy capital of Canada.  That's not a very distinguishing feature.  We'd rather not have that distinguishing feature, but it represents the needs and the radio station, as such, has to address the needs of the community.

3841             This is the methadone clinic.  It's been there for about six months now, and our friend Don Fuller, Dr. Don Fuller says there are about a hundred regular attendees.

3842             The case that really sort of got to me was the father, mother and two children all addicted to Oxycontin.  So it's serving a need in the community.  We certainly didn't ‑‑ wish it didn't have to be there, but it's a necessity.

3843             This is Church of the Epiphany.  It's right in the main downtown corridor and it happens to be my church and I was instrumental in bringing the Meeting Place and the food bank to this location.  And because it's in the middle of downtown, five per cent of the population of Woodstock pass through that meeting place every year.

3844             It's not just a food bank and a soup kitchen; there's a whole array of social services provided in this meliuex to the bottom end of our socioeconomic ladder.

3845             There are needs that are real and this radio station intends to address all of the needs of the community.

3846             Well, there's Hope FM.  We started out as Faith FM.  We changed our name to Hope FM because our sister station in Kitchener was also named Faith FM.  So there got to be some conflict.

3847             This tower is the one that is the same tower as Byrnes Media wishes to utilize.  It's owned by John Raul, and that's our location.  Originally we were downtown and this is where we shifted to in October.

3848             This is the TA Truck Stop and that's a front view.  And that lower left view is actually the outside of our radio studio.  That's an indoor view.  This is our local board of directors of Hope FM and they have unanimously said go for the 104 frequency.

3849             This is our financial director and we couldn't get along without her because she keeps us honest.  This is Dave Snihur, a local minister who does a program called "Stories of Faith."  He came forward to us and said, "Look, I'm the head of the ministerial association.  I know every minister in town.  I'll just bring them along one at a time and have them do an interview."

3850             Well, then they do station ID's as well.  And so at Christmas time we had 35 ministers come forward and just do station ID's and wish everybody a merry Christmas.  So that's been a huge boost for us in terms of community support.

3851             I showed the Calvary Pentecostal Church earlier.  These are the two ministers that are responsible for that church and they run a program called, "Ask the Pastor" and they have ‑‑ answer questions from the community.

3852             Now, this is our Sound of Faith broadcasting board of directors and you'll notice Will is there.  They represent people from Kitchener, London, St. Thomas, and Will is here from the Niagara Peninsula because we hope to establish radio stations in the Niagara Peninsula and in St. Thomas, and we already have somebody interested in Milton.  So we're not just Woodstock, but we want to give you the flavour of the whole group.

3853             In 1993 the law changed and allowed us to have single faith radio stations.  It was at that time that we first started working on this whole project and it was in December of '03 that the Woodstock Kitchener and London stations started their preliminary broadcast.

3854             As you know, it's a 50 watt station on 94.3 and what we're doing with radio is helping to build a community.  And so we lend our hands to all of those who have gone before us and all those who are going to come after us to create a society with honour and dignity.

3855             Because we're a Christian organization, we start with the Lord's Prayer, which says, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

3856             What does this mean for us as we attempt to mold society?  God has control of everything in heaven and through us he wishes to create a society where God is in control.  So anything that's socially acceptable in heaven is also socially acceptable in a society that we would attempt to mould and create in Woodstock and Oxford County.

3857             Our very name, Dominion of Canada, came into being because Mr. Tilley had been reading the Psalm 72.8 where it is says, "He shall have dominion from sea to sea."

3858             Our public school system came into being because Bishop John Strachan, who was the president of the Board of Education which established English instruction in the settlement of York in early 1800's.  A methodist, Egerton Ryerson, who served as Ontario's Superintendent of Education, 1844 to '76, was in support of public education system that had a distinctly Christian but non‑denominational basis.

3859             When people are born in Oxford county grow and eventually leave, we want them to be people of good character.  We want them to be honest, compassionate, loving, truthful, patient, helpful and tolerant of the diversities in society that they are going to encounter.

3860             We would like our young people to come from strong families where there's health, respect for academic achievement, financial stability, respect for seniors and for people of different cultural backgrounds.  We hope that when young people leave us, they realize that they have lived in a community with democratically elected officials where groups of people voluntarily bonded together to create organizations that create sports teams, music festivals, theatre groups and a community complex.

3861             In a book called, "I am Jewish," concerning the life of journalist Daniel Pearl, the president and CEO of CBC Radio Canada, Robert Rabinovitch said.

                      "I accept being Jewish.  To be proud of one's Jewish heritage is a critical step in understanding one's self in focusing a role in public life.  I am Jewish and I live in a world of Jews, Christians and Muslims.  My responsibility is to serve all Canadians.  My Jewish roots give the core values necessary to respect and work for all Canadians."

3862             Just as Mr. Rabinovitch utilizes his core values to help all Canadians, so Hope FM wishes to serve the needs of all the people of Oxford County.  It's our intention to aid in the growth of individuals, families and the community of Oxford County with honour and distinction.

3863             Every morning, five days a week, Dr. James Dobson with "Focus on the Family," interviews guests who have written books or led a crusade to help people create better families.  Parenting skills can only be augmented as we intentionally learn by the example of others to add to and improve what we have learned from our parents.

3864             At the moment, Oxford County has the distinction of being the teen pregnancy capital of Canada.  As we look at the background of these teen mothers, most of them come from single parent families.  With our educational programming, we would like to break this cycle.

3865             Our school systems now recognize that their safe sex programs are not working, but abstinence and delayed gratification seems to lead to happier and longer lasting relationships.

3866             The abortion rate in Canada is about 33 per cent and at the same time there are an equal number of childless couples wishing to adopt children.  Our station hopes to make a difference in how we handle our social problems.

3867             We all have heroes.  Unfortunately, all too often in Canadian society time has shown us that our heroes are less than honourable.  I can remember how disillusioned young men were when Ben Johnson's gold medal was taken away.  In business Conrad Black seemed to be very successful and was knighted for his achievements.  But subsequently he has been under a lot of scrutiny.

3868             The Gomery Commission is exposing a side of Canadian politics that will tarnish our image on the international stage.

3869             I would like to introduce you to one of my heroes; namely Ravi Zacharias.  On Sunday mornings at eight‑thirty we showcase Ravi Zacharias.  Ravi is the most intellectually gifted Christian apologist in the world today.

3870             Because of his East Indian background, he was interested in all eastern religions from an early age.  His depth of understanding of all religions and philosophies of the world has no peer.

3871             His speaking tours include all great universities of the world.  He will gladly enter into public debate on any topic in philosophy.  His office at 50 Gervais Drive in Toronto makes him easily accessible to any group in Canada.

3872             I'm sure the CRTC must have an annual meeting wherein you review all the activities of the year.  Christian radio is a relatively new phenomenon in Canada.  I would challenge the CRTC to invite Ravi Zacharias to be your guest speak to explain the true impact that Christian radio has on society, both now and in its future.

3873             A few months ago while serving at our rotary music festival a lady came to me and thanked me for our station.  She said whenever she feels a bit depressed she turns on Hope FM and finds a positive message that gives her hope and confidence to move forward in her day.

3874             Our salesman, John Shain, or I should say one of our two salespeople, John Shain, goes out to solicit advertising from the community businesses.  He's astounded that people ask him to stop and pray for them concerning the issues that confront their business.

3875             The development of Canadians music is part of our mandate as a radio station.  We've had five concerts since December of '03 and we have several more planned.  Our community has responded well to our invitations.  Many Christian music groups are part‑time, but with more venues for their talent, there is an increasing pull to be full‑time performers.

3876             We have local artists sending us new material all the time.  It's our intention to have talent contests so that young performers can showcase their abilities.

3877             In actual fact, we were supposed to have Jay Calder with us today, and I've given you Jay Calder's CD because he couldn't be here.  He came ‑‑ he thought it was going to be tomorrow.

3878             On the question of balanced programming, we have invited Jewish rabbis to come to our sister station, Grace FM in London.  Dave Snihur, who hosts a program called "Stories of Faith" will travel to London three or four times per year to interview the rabbis.  The rabbis would teach us the meaning of their special feasts or festivals.

3879             The Christian church is an olive branch grafted into a Jewish stock, and we would not exist if it were not for the foundation which came through Jewish culture.

3880             Financially we have made slow and steady progress.  Our initial equipment was donated in the fall of 2003.  Our sources of revenue are advertising, selling air time to ministries, donations and memberships.  We issue charitable donation receipts with the Canadian ‑‑ Charities of Canada donation number.

3881             Our concerts have brought in a significant amount of money.  That will continue as our community support grows.  Our annual reports are made to Charities of Canada as well as the CRTC.  We envision launching a major capital campaign to obtain equipment necessary for the expanded power.

3882             We ‑‑ if we raised the money when we didn't have a station, surely we can raise the capital funds with a station.  There are 40 churches in Woodstock and they have been very supportive of our station.

3883             In October of 2004 we moved to our new location, the TA Truck Stop.  The present location has more room and is a more dynamic setting.  From our present location we can set up a line of sight microwave connection to our proposed new antenna, about 230 feet higher than what we have now.  This is the highest point in Oxford County and we should improve our signal quality dramatically.

3884             The infrastructure of a more powerful station is now in place.  Because all of us live and work in Woodstock, we are in a better position than any other group to meet the listening needs of the people of Woodstock and Oxford County.

3885             Whether we are accepted for this power increase or not, it is our intention to continue to meet the needs of the people of Woodstock and Oxford County for many years to come.

3886             THE SECRETARY:  Excuse me, Dr. Reid, your twenty minutes have expired.

3887             DR. REID:  Okay.  I have some other material.  Go ahead.

3888             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Vice Chair French.

3889             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Dr. Reid, do you have anything you want to say by way of conclusion?  The twenty is not an absolutely religious requirement.

3890             DR. REID:  No, I think I'm ready for your questions.

3891             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Fair enough.  Could you repeat the last name your colleague please.  I'm not sure I understood it.

3892             DR. REID:  Will Rooen, R‑O‑O‑E‑N.

3893             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Thank you.  Your finance director couldn't be with you today?

3894             DR. REID:  No, I'm sorry, she couldn't.  This was all supposed to be tomorrow.

3895             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I understand perfectly.  It's an unpredictable process.

3896             In your application for Woodstock in 2002, you indicated that you'd broadcast 126 hours a week of local station produced programming, including three hours a week of non‑religious local spoken word programming such as local news, weather and sports and promotion of community events.

3897             You also proposed to offer thirty hours of religious programming per week and devote five hours per week to balanced programming.  We also note your commitment to offer a live morning show.

3898             In your current application for a technical change, you state that it's your wish to reach Oxford County and as much of London as you can.  You're going to include a number of smaller communities if we were to accede to your application, such as Ingersoll, Norwich and so forth.

3899             How would you propose to cover them given the way your station is currently operating and your current infrastructure?

3900             DR. REID:  What do you mean by ‑‑ in Ingersoll we're known as FUZZ FM.

3901             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  If we were to accede your request, you would no longer be known as FUZZ FM and I'm asking what you would do to cover those kinds of communities.

3902             DR. REID:  Well, we would have a larger budget.  And we now have one vehicle that does on‑site events.  We certainly would be instrumental in covering events in and around Ingersoll.

3903             We have a salesman who lives there.  We could certainly cover the major events that occur in that community as easily as we're going to cover the major events that occur in Woodstock.  I'm there twice ‑‑ once a week at least, so it's not foreign territory for me.

3904             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Fair enough.  In your original 2002 application you projected one year programming expenses of about $40,000, $41,000.  In your annual return for the term ending August 31, 2004, you indicate actual programming expenses totalled $8,782.

3905             DR. REID:  Have you got this sheet?

3906             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I do.

3907             DR. REID:  Okay.

3908             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  But I'm trying to reconcile ‑‑ I'm in the process of trying to understand the various pieces of data that are before me.  Maybe you'd like to go at it your way.

3909             DR. REID:  No.

3910             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Why don't you tell us, please, what your current run rate is and how it relates to your forecast run rate were we to accede your application.

3911             DR. REID:  Just tell me what you mean by run rate.

3912             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  What are you operating at in terms of the size of the operation?  What are you spending in terms of programming, which is your total budget.  I'm just trying to get a grasp of the nature of your current enterprise and what you would forecast would be your future budget and programming allocation were we to accept your application.

3913             I don't want to ‑‑ I'm not trying to put you on specific record to the last dollar, I'm just trying to understand globally where you are now and where you want to go, financially speaking.

3914             DR. REID:  I think realistically we could double what we we're doing now.

3915             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Double what you're doing now is ‑‑ the financial report we have is an attachments to your most recent ‑‑

3916             DR. REID:  Yes.

3917             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  So you'd be looking at numbers like 100 to $120,000 a year in terms of income?

3918             DR. REID:  Right.

3919             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  And expense more or less targeting to equal that.

3920             DR. REID:  110, right.

3921             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Is that fair?

3922             DR. REID:  That's fair.

3923             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  And what portion of that would you expect would be programming?

3924             DR. REID:  We're not going to get that much more from programming.  In other words, as you see by this sheet, there are a number of programs that we derive income from.  The income that comes from them is based on population and basically how much money they receive from Oxford County.

3925             We didn't know how much they were going to receive and so we went on a 50/50 basis with those ministries and that's ‑‑ I don't have those figures with me, but I think it's probably only about 15 or 20 per cent of our total income is those ministries.

3926             Most of our income comes from advertising, local spot advertising.

3927             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  All right.  And the part of your income which comes from shared cost programming with specific Ministries would be unlikely to increase in the hypothesis that you had a commercially powered station.

3928             DR. REID:  It will increase a little bit.

3929             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Marginally.

3930             DR. REID:  Yes.  In other words, we can't put more of that programming into our mix, as I see it.

3931             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  All right.  And the fact that those Ministries will now reach a larger base in the population will not be monetizable.

3932             DR. REID:  Yes, they will.  They will increase somewhat.

3933             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  But not proportionate.

3934             DR. REID:  Not proportionate, no.  They won't double.

3935             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  The remaining 80 per cent is advertising and that's the part that is going to have to increase more than proportionally under your hypothesis of doubling.

3936             DR. REID:  Yes.

3937             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Would you tell us a little bit about that works at the moment and how you would propose to ensure that your new budget would meet the size of the requirements of the higher powered station.

3938             DR. REID:  Right now we have one salesman and we acquired another lady about a month ago.  And the only income we can derive is from the City of Woodstock because that's where our signal goes.  If we increase it to carry ‑‑ to cover the whole of Oxford County, obviously our sales people can visit Norwich and Ingersoll and all the country communities around it.

3939             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  And in your mind, that would more than double your current advertising revenue.

3940             DR. REID:  Yes, it will.

3941             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I'm a little puzzled by that.  I wonder if you could help me to understand why.  I would imagine, and you know the county much better than I do, that the overwhelming majority of economic activity flows through the City of Woodstock.  How would it be that you could double because of that additional coverage?  You would raise your rates for your existing advertisers?

3942             DR. REID:  No, our existing rates are $18 per thirty second spot and the population of Woodstock, I think, has been quoted today at 36,000.

3943             I don't know what the population of Oxford County is, but I'm sure it's at least double that and it ‑‑ I think that the ‑‑ if we cover the whole of that population of Oxford County we will, in fact, double our economic input.  You're not going to derive it all from Woodstock.

3944             Now, elsewhere you've talked about networking.  There is a small income that is potential where we have our sister stations in Kitchener and London.  They are autonomous, they're going into those markets and we're not going into those markets, but it is possible for their advertisers to want advertising in three cities rather than one and, therefore, there is a small income coming from those.  And again if you're a class A station, advertisers in London are going to be a lot more interested in picking up advertising in Woodstock than they are at the present 50 watt station.

3945             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  So there would be two ways in which this more than proportional increase ‑‑ more than doubling of the 80 per cent of your revenue currently derived from advertising would be realized.  One would be the fact that you would have one Class A and two low power  licenses?  Is the London license ‑‑ London's a lower power license?

3946             DR. REID:  Yes, it is also applying for a stronger license, but it's only at the applying stage.

3947             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  So, doctor, you'd package those two together, and that would be one way that you would hope for some advertisers.

3948             DR. REID:  Yes.

3949             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  And a second reason would be that you would be covering a larger population of the county and, therefore, more economic activity and therefore more advertising.

3950             DR. REID:  That's right.

3951             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  What proportion of your current budget is derived from donations?

3952             DR. REID:  Very little really.  Probably ten per cent.

3953             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Ten per cent.  So a nominal five to $6,000 at the moment, and ten to 12,000 under the new ‑‑ under a new year one budget?

3954             DR. REID:  Yes.

3955             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I wonder if you could help me.  You're aware that the Commission recently denied an application by your organization for a similar technical change to its Kitchener station.

3956             DR. REID:  That's correct.

3957             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  The Commission found that that station's current authorized technical parameters were adequate and commensurate with those of the low power service that Sound of Faith originally proposed at the competitive radio licensing hearing held in Kitchener in October 2002.

3958             I wonder if you could, bearing that in mind, give us the reasons why the Commission should, nevertheless, given its rationale in that case, approve your amendment request that we're currently hearing?

3959             DR. REID:  Christian artists need and deserve a voice.  Christian artists ‑‑ we've heard rock artists deserve a voice, adult contemporary deserve a voice.  There are only thirty stations, Christian stations across Canada.  There are 2,500 south of the border.

3960             Our ‑‑ Jay Calder, very fortunately, got the okay to perform on CBC and that's a big plus, because Christian artists do not get that go ahead, by and large.  We're asking for an opportunity for a group of people who are shut out of the marketplace.

3961             Now, the very fact that this guy, Jay Calder, is going out on a limb and at age 40 with a wife and four children is prepared to sort of say I'm going to be a full time performer, that's huge, it's huge.  It would never have happened before 1993.  Why?  Because there was no venue for Christian artists.

3962             And so to him, the quandary is always do I go south and take my talents to the United States or is there enough of a venue in Canada for my unique talents to ‑‑ for a showcase.

3963             And had he been here, he would have told you about Fergus Marsh.  Fergus Marsh plays a unique instrument called the Chapman Stick, and he's just put out his first CD.  He usually plays with Bruce Cockburn as Bruce Cockburn goes around the world on tour.  And Bruce Cockburn never goes any place without Fergus Marsh.

3964             So these people with unique talents don't have a voice unless we provide a voice.  If you limit all Christian radio to small low power then you're saying, hey, folks, you are second class citizens.  You don't deserve a voice in the marketplace.

3965             I think they do.  I think there's a tremendous opportunity and the process of going from part‑time to full‑time is a fantastic jump for the average performer.  It's a really difficult jump.  And we're saying these thirty Christian radio stations are the venue whereby these people can emerge into the marketplace.

3966             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  So the primary reason for your application, the primary rationale you would present to us is the need to provide an avenue or an opportunity for Christian musicians.

3967             DR. REID:  Well, I think that's one of the major ones.  Okay.  Now, you've heard it said there's no news weather and sports.  We have had news, weather and sports locally produced about our own community since April of 2004 and it's been there on the radio.  Whether they choose to acknowledge that or not, it's been there.

3968             Now, let's talk about our ‑‑ the reality.  The reality is we take the Sentinel Review and we read all the local news on the air.  That's not a terribly sophisticated system.  We would love to have, you know, our own news gathering system, but it has to be financially viable.  And you can't move faster than the economics of the situation dictate.

3969             So, yes, we would love to have a group of newscasters and news collectors, but unless the ‑‑ until the dollars are there, unless it's a Class A license, we're not going to have that kind of ability to collect news ourselves.

3970             So, yes, we do have local news and we do have six employees.  We have two people in the morning from ‑‑ that's called Daybreak Live from seven till nine, and it's not on here, but we do have a gentleman from three until six every day, John Schmorr, and, again, we're progressing according to the income that we're receiving and it's a nice steady growth and as I ‑‑ you know, as an orthopaedic surgeon, you're always interested in the long term.

3971             When you put in a total hip you're saying is it going to last five years, ten years, fifteen, twenty, 25 years?  How long is it going to last?  I look at all these others saying, "Let's look at this Woodstock situation.  Project yourself ten years down the line."  Who's going to be there?

3972             I'm saying this station is still going to be there.  This station is still going to be growing steadily, progressively, with a firm economic base, with its bills paid, and we're not going to sell out to anybody.

3973             That's the great temptation when you develop a station in Woodstock, to sell out for the big dollar and retire and leave town.

3974             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  So a second reason is that you are a genuinely Woodstock oriented and rooted organization?

3975             DR. REID:  Absolutely.  Absolutely.

3976             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  What kind of average weekly audience are you attracting at the moment?

3977             DR. REID:  I wish I knew, and that's a problem.  In the United States they can tell you that they get ten to fifteen per cent of the market with Christian radio.  Our best guess in Canada is about five per cent, and as you noted in the BBM's of our sister station in Kitchener, they were at 1.6 in 2004.  They're now up to 1.9.

3978             They're the only group that are getting BBM's, so that's the only valid statistics that I have.

3979             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  You have nothing from London?

3980             DR. REID:  No, they don't get BBM's, sorry.

3981             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I would like to give you a kind of comment which will come in the form of a question, but ultimately is intended to provide you with an opportunity to expand or not on what you just shared with us.

3982             I don't think that the Commission, when it looks at an application of this ‑‑ I can only speak for myself now.  I wouldn't consider your application in the light of Christian or not Christian, Dr. Reid.  I would do my best to try to consider what kinds of things the audience requires and what kinds of prospects there are that those requirements will be well, efficiently met by the different applicants that are before us.

3983             And so we've now looked at a series of different alternatives of which you are one, and I confess that with the best will in the world, it is a big jump, as you've said, it is a big challenge and I'm having ‑‑ given the variety of financial information we've had, given the ‑‑ this kind of avocational nature of your involvement with the station, what I take to be a very busy life doing a lot of difference things, I'm having some difficulty convincing myself that the complexity of the exercise will be shouldered by an organization which is equally robust and able to take on that complexity.  I say this as honestly as I can to give you the opportunity to respond.

3984             DR. REID:  If we had 20 million dollars it would sure look different, wouldn't it?

3985             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  That's true, but not everyone before us today has 20 million dollars.

3986             DR. REID:  I know.  But the reality is that if you want to move this system forward faster, it requires more money and we can't logically move faster than our income allows.  We don't have a network, we don't have a large financial reserve that we can steer in here and hire more people to do more things and cover more events.

3987             Now, we will be covering Oxford County.  We will ‑‑ you know, meetings, we will be covering the city council meetings and we certainly from one vehicle on the road now and we intend to have two more vehicles on the road designated with our station logos, et cetera.

3988             It will happen, it will come, but it won't come with the lightning speed that everybody else has because they have more background financial support and that's a reality which I can't change.

3989             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Last question, Dr. Reid, and it's a question of curiosity which will not influence, at least with me, your fate before us, and that is, how would you account for the difference in, as it were, religious or Christian density in the media in Canada and the United States?

3990             You've evoked for us this pattern of rich ‑‑ I say rich not in the financial sense, rich range of Christian media in the United States and you've said there are 30 stations in Canada and, reading between the lines, you would say, I think, that they are beginning, they are starting, they are moving forward, but they don't have the same kind of organizational and financial base.  Or, Mr. Rooen, how would you account for the difference?

3991             MR. ROOEN:  Well, first of all, I've been in the business for about fifty years, fifty years, in radio and television production.  First of all, in the United States the evangelical market and the Catholic market is very large compared to our market in Canada, very small in ‑‑ 35 per cent in the United States, ten per cent in Canada or less.

3992             So right off the bat you have a marketplace that is more in tune with that.  There has been also a history that they've had radio.  We have just started with the radio stations in the last ten years.  I was involved helping with CHLI in Ottawa, and that was one of the first ones.

3993             So that is one of the things that is there, is the population base and the demographics of it compared to Canadian demographic.  It is population as a whole in the United States, which is ten times our population in Canada.  So those ‑‑ that's a big jump.  So if you figure that if we were ‑‑ that we would have ‑‑ we'd be maybe ten per cent.  We don't have the population base, we don't have the demographic part of the population base that they do the United States.

3994             One of the things that ‑‑ I am the Dean of Communications at Canada Christian College  and one of the things when I came there was to bring this into a Christian setting where we'd have people train for the media, for journalism and radio and television production.  And my students are seeing I believe in the old way radio here.

3995             When I grew up we used to listen to the radio and it was an interactive media at that time.  What I mean by interactive is the people, they listen to Max Ferguson, L for Lanky during the war,  the fiftieth anniversary.

3996             There was all these programs that we can imagine we'd be sitting there in a cockpit or whatever it is, flying with the plane.

3997             I teach drama and I do drama on ‑‑ our students are now in different stations and they're part of it.  One of the things that ‑‑ what I may pose is the other thing is the format system.  This kind of music here.  We need more interactive media and I don't think that even the people with the monopolies in the media are doing that.  They're doing what they can get by with and that's it.  They're raking it off the top.

3998             These stations are not making money ‑‑ in the business to make money.  They're doing a service for their community.  That's what I try to teach my students to do that.  I think we need to have a little wider perspective on what this is.  It's not just for the Christian community, it's for the whole.  We need a positive media out there that are speaking to me the people, whether it's seniors or young people, teenagers, whatever, that they have a positive voice rather than negative and hope that has ‑‑ music that has hope, different things.

3999             I think we have a range of things.  When he was saying about an opportunity for our artists, or musicians, our actors, our dramatists, our writers would have a marketplace that they feel comfortable with.  This should be open to the general public.  This is not to brainwash the public or anything else, but allow the public to choose what they want to listen to.

4000             I think this is the role as a public servant.  I was a speech writer and an assistant mayor.  I worked for J. Walter Thompson.  So I've been in this media for a long time, in Canada and in the States.  But I'm saying ‑‑ I published community newspapers in Detroit ‑‑ I worked for one in Detroit and published one in Toronto.

4001             So I know ‑‑ and my students, I teach them how to go and gather information, how to do a story, how to do research on stuff so they can be investigative ‑‑ even the Bible, it provides ‑‑ the Bible is like a newspaper.  There are reporters writing about those different events that happened, whether it be the prophets or whether you look in the New Testament in the different epistles.  They're telling me about that.

4002             We have investigative reporters in both the old and new.  Luke was an investigative reporter.  He wasn't there at the event, but he gathered the information, went out there.

4003             This is realistic.  If we got history, this is what's happening.  So I think this will help the level of journalism.  And there's a lot of distrust now within journalism and this whole profession and the media.  A lot of things that have happened over the last century.  Our whole thing with business and ethics.  There is a corruption in the minds of a lot of people thinking that this is what it is.  Politics and churches.

4004             People are looking for something that they can see something positive, something that had hope to it, something that had integrity to it.  I think this is what is needed.  When we used to listen ‑‑ when I was a kid I listened to CBC.  I listened to Max Ferguson, I listened to the Happy Gang and all of those.  Some of you might know that.  I kind of dating myself.  I was a kid then and I grew up on that.

4005             I just waited for that the Lone Ranger and all this, all those kinds of things.

4006             I think kids today, it's not just the television where  they don't have a chance to exercise their minds.  Radio you have a ‑‑ ideas and the dramas that can be done ‑‑

4007             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Thank you very much.  Much appreciated.

4008             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Langford.

4009             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4010             I've just got a couple of questions about programming.  I'm looking at the schedule you provided us this afternoon at the back of one of your handouts, the one that has your script on it and your card.

4011             I want to make sure I understand it correctly, so maybe we could just take Monday as an average day.  You're having a live drive time show from seven to nine.

4012             DR. REID:  Yes.

4013             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And then "Focus on the Family", "Insight for living", "In Touch", "Grace to You", "Back to the Bible", "Walk in the Word".  Are these your shows or brokered programs?

4014             DR. REID:  These are basically American shows, American ministries.  They're produced and basically they're the most popular shows that most Christian people are willing to listen to.

4015             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Do they pay to get on your service or do you pay for them?  How does it work?

4016             DR. REID:  They certainly do.  No, no, they pay to be on our service.  Initially we didn't know how much to charge them so, therefore, we said let's look at it from their point of view.  We'll go 50/50.  We did.  The problem with the Christian ‑‑

4017             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  What do you mean by that, if I could interrupt, by 50/50?

4018             DR. REID:  In other words, "Focus on the Family" will ask for donations and people will send them donations.  So they will send 50 per cent of that back to us.

4019             The Christian station in Brantford brokered a fantastic deal and they got all kinds of money from these same organizations and then halfway through their first year suddenly the organizations were saying, uh‑oh, we're not getting any kind of money back from them commensurate with what we're paying them, so let's stop that.

4020             Rather than go that route, we said  50/50 and we'll establish a track record and at least we'll be honest in our dealing with these people.  Once we've got a track record we can say, okay, this is what we're getting in from Oxford.

4021             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So you've got a track record now or are you still on the 50/50?

4022             DR. REID:  We've got a track record for one year for the City of Woodstock.

4023             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Enter the third murderer.  So ‑‑ but with most of them, then, could you give me an idea of how big a percentage of your income comes from this brokered programming?  Just roughly.

4024             DR. REID:  I think you asked the same question earlier, didn't you?

4025             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Probably.

4026             DR. REID:  Yes, I think he did.  And I think I ‑‑

4027             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  You're on the record as saying that donations were ten per cent.

4028             DR. REID:  Yes.

4029             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  You also said that 20 per cent of the income came from the ministries.  So ‑‑

4030             DR. REID:  I would say let's say 20 per cent.

4031             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  What I'm calling brokered programming you're calling ministry.

4032             DR. REID:  Yes, those are ministry programming.  Let's say 20 per cent.

4033             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Now, the rest of the day, then, is this voice tracking essentially?

4034             DR. REID:  Yes, it's all computerized.  There's no DJ, there's nobody there until three o'clock in the afternoon.

4035             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  When you, what, have a the first break for news or something?

4036             DR. REID:  No, we have our announcer that comes in from three to six.

4037             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Are there news inserts in this voice track program?

4038             DR. REID:  Yes, there are.

4039             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  There are.  And are they part of this reading the Sentinel newspaper?

4040             DR. REID:  No, that comes in the morning.  Then we have a news service that kicks in, and I'm not sure how often that happens, but I would think about six times a day.

4041             It's called ‑‑ it's a new service that's with ‑‑ deals with world news.

4042             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Would it have a local element as well?

4043             DR. REID:  No, it would be Canadian news?

4044             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That comes in six time a day?

4045             DR. REID:  About that.

4046             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Now, when and if, assuming, let's be optimistic.  Let's assume that we grant your application and you obtain the new frequency and the power increase, would you, at least at the beginning, simply broadcast this same schedule, but to a greater area and at a higher power?

4047             DR. REID:  Yes, we would start that way.

4048             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Then can you ‑‑

4049             DR. REID:  Then what we anticipate is that your revenues would increase dramatically and therefore you would hire a lot more people.

4050             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Can you give me some idea of where your priorities would be as the monies started to roll in?

4051             DR. REID:  I would think in terms of hiring more announcers.  We would like to cover this whole section and create local news, actually have a news gathering service as opposed to just reading a local newspaper.

4052             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Do you have a kind of a plan in a sense that when we get to this sort of income level we can do this and when we get to the next level we can do step 2?

4053             DR. REID:  That's why you saw that board of directors for Hope FM.  They meet monthly, unlike our others that said we'll meet three times a year; no, we meet monthly and we hash over all these priorities.

4054             In other words, there's only this much money available.  Where are we going to go from here?  And the station manager has a good deal to say about that.

4055             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So after all these meetings you've had, have you come up with a kind of schedule, even if it's based on an ideal in the sense that if we can get another $20,000 we'll do this, another 20 beyond that, we'll do that.

4056             Have you got a kind of a ‑‑ you know, a twelve step process here of some sort?

4057             DR. REID:  Prioritizing, no, we don't.

4058             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You don't.

4059             DR. REID:  We do certainly want to increase our news gathering service, maintain our Canadian content, have ‑‑ we'd even love to have somebody in the middle of the night doing a phone‑in show.  We'd love to have a phone‑in show, but it's $5,000 for the stock mike.  An we'd love to create balance by having people phone in.

4060             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  In the sense of priorities, and I understand you told me you don't have a plan, but you have had discussions.  But it is news first, then a phone in show then more disk jockeys.  Could you give me a general sense of where you feel the dollars have to go?  Again, in what order they'd have to be expended.

4061             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I would think more announcers first.

4062             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  To announce music.

4063             DR. REID:  To announce music.

4064             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Right.  And second?

4065             DR. REID:  Because if you are just playing the music, and we say that Canadian music is important, then if nobody's announcing, then they don't get that message.

4066             We were previously on the University of Western Ontario station.  We ran a program before we ever started this and that man ‑‑ our announcer was magnificent.  He knew where these musical groups were going all over Southwestern Ontario, so if people were listening to his program they knew where to pick up concerts.  His knowledge of those musical groups was just phenomenal.

4067             I think if we're really serious about Canadian Christian talent, those announcers become paramount.

4068             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Final question.  Do you have a sense, have you done a market study, even a stopping people in the streets market study, have you got any sort of a sense of how long this journey is going to be between the day you stop being low power and receive your new license and your new increase in power and your new frequency, between that day and when, how can I put it, you'll be offering a full service, the ideal, the final product?

4069             DR. REID:  You mean if we got this okay?

4070             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes.

4071             DR. REID:  I would think it would take a year.

4072             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Only a year?

4073             DR. REID:  Yes.

4074             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  What would that final product look like at the end of that year?

4075             DR. REID:  It would look like a news gathering service of about two people.

4076             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Right.

4077             DR. REID:  It would look like announcers all day and probably a late night show, because the most disturbed people in the world are the people that are awake at four o'clock in the morning and we'd like to have a phone‑in show at that time ideally.

4078             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I want the record to show that I slept like a baby last night.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

4079             DR. REID:  Yes, I know, but if your wife just left you or you had an income tax audit or something like that, you're not sleeping all night and that's the time to have a phone‑in show for people that are really disturbed.

4080             We even think that we could coordinate something with a 1‑800 number right across Canada with talented counselors.  And at the end of the night, say six a.m., you'd phone up North Bay and say, hey, you know what, this person phoned me up, follow up that person.

4081             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  There's a number of time zones that might present a logistical difficulty, but anyway, I see where you're going.

4082             In answer to my question, you feel that this would attract enough revenue, enough?  Obviously we still have to talk about dollars, that after one year you could completely have transformed this from what I see before me now to this sort of model that you're aiming towards?

4083             DR. REID:  Yes.

4084             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.  Those are my questions, Mr. Chair.

4085             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Commissioner Cram?

4086             DR. REID:  Can I introduce just introduce Tom Kerber.  Tom has been with us since 1988 when Tom and I went up to Bower Hill Road.  I showed you that tower on Bower Hill Road.

4087             We went up there in 1988 and said how can we get Christian radio for Woodstock.  And his proposal came forward and the CRTC said, "We'll put you in jail if you do that," so I didn't think about that again until 1993 when you changed the rules.

4088             And then it was Tom and I that started this whole scenario of attempting to get Christian radio.  But as you can see, our friend in Ottawa who was working for the CBC and had some experience ‑‑ he was much faster than I was because he was an orthopaedic surgeon.  There's a long distance between orthopaedic surgeon and Christian radio.

4089             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

4090             Dr. Reid, I'm going to follow up on my colleague, Commissioner Langford.  I ‑‑ so you got the two and a half hours, nine to eleven‑thirty, brokered programming.  Is there any other programming that is not produced by you in this circuit?

4091             DR. REID:  The ones that are produced by us is "Lift Off".  "Lift Off" is the local Christian team group, and then there's the, "Ask the pastor" and "Stories of Faith".  "Community Corner" is done by our station manager, but those are the extent of our local ‑‑ locally produced programs.

4092             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So what is not locally produced then, just the ‑‑

4093             DR. REID:  Just the nine to eleven‑thirty.

4094             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And I'd like you to tell me how you see that jibing with your commitment to us.  When you first got licensed, that 126 hours per week would be locally produced because 126 hours is the regulated time from six in the morning until midnight seven days a week.

4095             DR. REID:  Well, do you conceive of this ‑‑ all music as being locally ‑‑

4096             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No, I'm only talking about nine to eleven‑thirty, the brokered programming that is not produced by you or not locally produced.

4097             DR. REID:  Right.

4098             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So that adds up to two and a half hours per week Monday through Friday and that is not locally produced.

4099             DR. REID:  Right.

4100             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So my question to you is how does that jibe with your commitment that 126 hours, meaning all of the hours from six a.m. until midnight would be locally produced when you were initially licensed?

4101             DR. REID:  That's all that we can ‑‑ that's all we can generate.  In other words, the locally produced programs, do you consider the ‑‑ when we have the music playing, is that a locally produced program or isn't it?

4102             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Probably, yes.  I'm just worried about the twelve and a half hours that you're selling that you haven't produced.

4103             DR. REID:  Well, okay.  I limited myself to that.  If you think that that's inappropriate ‑‑

4104             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I'm asking you how you can do that when you initially committed to us that everything from six a.m. until midnight would be locally produced.  That's my question to you.

4105             DR. REID:  Okay.  I guess we've varied from that initial commitment.

4106             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Can you show me on this program where your five hours per week of balanced programming is?

4107             DR. REID:  We don't have it there.  Our initial content commitment was with Zelda Young.  Zelda Young is on CHYM.

4108             When we came back to her at the time and said, "Let's go for balanced programming," she said, "Oh, sure.  Pay me 2,500 a month for my program."  We couldn't afford her.

4109             So that was our initial attempt at balanced programming and now we've addressed that same issue by saying we will go to the rabbis in London and have them come in on a regular basis and do interview programs there.

4110             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So how many hours a week do you have of balanced programming now?

4111             DR. REID:  None.

4112             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Again, how does that jibe with your commitment to us when you were licensed to have five hours of balanced programming?

4113             DR. REID:  We don't have it, and we do have a plan to get it, but ‑‑

4114             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Oh, good.  Tell me.

4115             DR. REID:  ‑‑ we don't have it right now.

4116             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Tell me your plan.

4117             DR. REID:  The plan is to have Jewish programming.

4118             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And when are you planning to get that?

4119             DR. REID:  As soon as we can arrange it.

4120             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And how many hours a week?

4121             DR. REID:  It don't be very many because there aren't that many Jewish programs available.

4122             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So do you intend continue to buy this ‑‑ have this brokered programming and not live up to that commitment and do you intend to not live up to your commitment to have five hours of balanced programming a week?

4123             DR. REID:  Five hours per week?  Okay.  We can get that.  The only way we can get that is to use American programs.

4124             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Well, Dr. Reid, my question is do you intend to continue to not live up to your true commitments?

4125             DR. REID:  No.

4126             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  When do you intend to live up to those commitments, sir?

4127             DR. REID:  As soon as we can arrange for that.  Within six months, let's say.

4128             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  Thank you Mr. Chair.

4129             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank you very much, gentleman.  Excuse me, counsel does have a question.  And I will give you a chance at the end to make any closing statement you would like.  Counsel, would you proceed?

4130             MR. MURDOCK:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

4131             I just have one quick question.  I note that in 2003 you were licensed to provide a low power Christian music radio service to Woodstock.  Could you elaborate on CHFH‑FM's economic need as it relates specifically to the continued provision of service to the City of Woodstock as per your original license approval?

4132             DR. REID:  I'm not sure that I really understand that.  An economic need?

4133             MR. MURDOCK:  You were originally licensed to service Woodstock.

4134             DR. REID:  Right.

4135             MR. MURDOCK:  So why is there a need now ‑‑ what is the economic need driving this technical amendment to serve just the City of Woodstock as opposed to the larger contour that you're looking for?

4136             DR. REID:  We feel that we are serving the City of Woodstock right now and there's a demand by the rest of the community in Ingersoll, Norwich, Burgessville, Embro.  They're asking for us to expand.  There's a request for those communities.  Those communities are asking us to ‑‑ for more power.

4137             MR. MURDOCK:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  Thank you.

4138             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

4139             Do you have any closing comments in support of your application as to why you should be the successful applicant here?  I would ask you to keep it brief, if you could.

4140             DR. REID:  Okay.  I still think that our commitment is to the City of Woodstock and County of Oxford.  That we don't have any real desire to go to Kitchener or to London.  That we all live there, work there, and we want to be full‑time.

4141             Right now all of us are part‑time at this process and we can see that if we do get this 104 then the station manager could probably be full‑ time.  Right now he's balancing two jobs.  All of our employees are balancing two jobs.  That's a less than professional situation.

4142             We would like to have the ability to have full time employees, and we can do that with the greater economic base.

4143             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Those are our questions.

4144             We'll break now for ten minutes and then proceed with the next item.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1710 / Suspension à 1710

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1720 / Reprise à 1720

4145             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.  À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

4146             Madam Secretary.

4147             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

4148             We will now proceed with item 7 on the agenda, which is an application by Tillsonburg Broadcasting Company Limited to convert radio station CKOT Tillsonburg from the AM band to the FM band.

4149             The new station would operate on frequency 104.7 megahertz, channel 284B1, with an average effective radiated power of 2,300 watts.  Mr. John Lamers will introduce his colleagues ‑‑ Mr. Craig will introduce his colleagues and you have 20 minutes for your presentation.

4150             Thank you.

PRESENTATION/PRÉSENTATION

4151             MR. CRAIG:  Thank you very much.

4152             Chairman Dalfen,  Commissioners Cram, Cugini, French and Langford, Pierre and staff, thank you very much for allowing Tillsonburg Broadcasting Company Limited the opportunity to present our case for a technical change to flip our daytime only AM radio station, which is the last remaining day‑timer in Canada, to full‑time 24 hour status at 104.7.

4153             First of all, I'd like to introduce our panel.  To our far right here, your left, our auditor, Mike Bossy, of Bossy and Associate, Tillsonburg, Woodstock.  Next to him is Doug Cooper, Tillsonburg area resident and program director of CKOT for the last 20 years.

4154             Next to Doug is Jim Moltner, and Jim is our consulting broadcast engineer.  Stu Bayley, CKOT broadcast engineer for over 30 years, and he's our resident Vanna for the day.

4155             Jerry Daniel is next to me.  He's the CKOT news director and life long resident of Ingersoll, and to my far left is Carolyn Lamers, who is a CKOT shareholder and sales account executive and granddaughter of Tillsonburg Broadcasting's founder and one of five Lamers family member involved in the station.

4156             I'm Jim Craig.  I'm a professor with the Faculty of Communication Arts at Seneca, at York and at Fanshawe Colleges, and national smooth jazz programmer for CBC Galaxy.  I've also worked with John Lamers, who is a friend of mine for a number of years in areas of programming and operations.

4157             I have to say right off the top we feel like we're fighting for our life here, and you'll know why as we go through our presentation.  So it's time to rumble here.

4158             Fifty years is a long time, especially when a radio station has been a day‑timer broadcasting only from sunrise to sunset for all of those years.  On April 30th, CKOT AM marked its 50th anniversary and in a few months we'll be officially celebrating a half century of service to Oxford, Elgin and Norfolk Counties.

4159             We're holding off to make it a double celebration.  Our golden anniversary and a celebration of a brand new frequency with a 24 hour license.

4160             MR. LAMERS:  Thank you, Jim.  Chairman Dalfen, Commissioners, we're truly a unique rare breed, family‑founded company with the last sunrise, sunset radio station in Canada and one of the few single market independent operators left.

4161             This is our only business.  We do not have radio or TV stations in other markets; cable holding, specialty channels or newspapers.  We are a local business with one goal.  To provide important information, decent entertainment, and responsible advertising to the communities we serve.

4162             In 1955 my father started CKOT AM to serve the diverse population of Oxford, Elgin and Norfolk Counties.  Five decades later, I run the company and a fourth generation is involved.

4163             We have succeed under tough conditions, competing against stations from larger centres with deep pockets.  Some of Canada's biggest broadcasters.  We've done it with serious technical problems in half our operation, CKOT AM.

4164             Fortunately, we've managed marginal profit for an AM station that's on the air only nine hours a day through the most lucrative sales period of the year, Christmas by offering Oxford, Elgin, Norfolk area the programming they need and want.  Locally produced news and information that other stations beaming in into our area ignore; giving air time to local community organizations and ethnic cultural groups when no one else would, and reflecting the interests, concerns and achievements of our audience.

4165             MR. CRAIG:  To the crux of the matter here.  The signal of CKOT am is a problem, not only to us, but also to the Commission, which in the 80's suggested we move from daytime only when the sun is up, to a full‑time 24 hour license.

4166             And you'll note our high tech, analog power point chart here that you also have a copy of at the back end of your notes.

4167             In fall and winter our off air hours extend into morning and afternoon drive, when road and weather information is crucial to our listeners, especially those in more isolated, rural areas.  They have to tune elsewhere to receive storm warnings, school closings, cancellations, postponements and emergency alerts, and even our longest summer broadcast days are just 15 hours.

4168             This situation is not acceptable to today's radio listener and presents a severe obstacle to audience and advertiser loyalty.  In this age of modern electronics and instant worldwide communication, our transmission is archaic.  It's a holdover from the days of Marconi and Fessenden.

4169             MS. LAMERS:  Being daytime only  impacts us on many fronts.  Advertisers don't want to buy time on a station whose inventory changes with sunrise to sunset.  We don't subscribe to BBM for CKOT AM.  Their data is of no use to buyers when, for instance, in winter months the important breakfast and drive times, are limited to an hour.  And imagine early morning news sponsorships that are only available May to August.

4170             I am proud to be a third generation Lamers family member at CKOT.  My son has taken this heritage to a fourth generation.  Call us old fashioned, we don't have automated phone systems, listeners have access to us any time every day.  Between midnight and five a.m. listeners can even reach the owner at home.  People say it's nice to speak to a real live person.

4171             Local accessibility to both stations is invaluable to our community, especially in times of emergency, but our a.m. day‑timer cannot appropriately serve its audience.

4172             This is apparent when school children and parents need to know about bus cancellations and we are not on the air until eight a.m.

4173             Tillsonburg Broadcasting is truly an integral part of our communities and, by the way, the owner is on the premises during the day, ensuring nimble decision‑making, without having to go through a distant head office.

4174             MR. LAMERS:  The CRTC regulations have helped us be successful.  We applied for our FM license in '65 to simulcast and extend our coverage of our daytime AM only.  The 70's simulcast restriction policy was a mixed blessing, forcing distinct programming on CKOT FM, but it left us with a restricted AM signal.

4175             Sister station, Easy 101 FM became a hit with an appreciative mature audience across Southwestern Ontario, however, CKOT AM still struggles.  In 1988, the Commission directed us to find a 24 hour frequency for AM 1510.  The American FCC turned down our 1992 CRTC approval on technical grounds.

4176             In October of '93 CKDK‑FM Woodstock upgraded to 103.9 freeing the assigned Oxford County frequency of 102.3.  CRTC policy restricted ownership of two FM's in the same market.  With the '98 change in that policy, we applied for 102.3 as a flip for CKOT AM to full‑time on FM.  Although Industry Canada had never redesignated these frequency away from its Oxford County allocation, we were denied in favour of CHUM, who got a new London station over in Middlesex.

4177             So we continued our search for a remedy to our daytime challenge while coping with a deteriorating AM ground system at our transmitter.  Finally we found the solution early 2004, an available and technically acceptable FM frequency at 104.7 that adequately replicates a smaller version of our current AM full coverage.

4178             We can better serve our audience 24/7 with without added encroachment upon neighbouring stations or markets.

4179             There will be no change in format.  The increase of hours to full‑time will satisfy the Commission's long standing directive, along with listener needs and expectations?

4180             MR. COOPER:  Over the years CKOT AM has developed a truly unique style of country music radio.  We call it communitY country radio.  A healthy dose of community‑focused information with a mix of past and present.

4181             Most other country stations tend to air a small, tightly rotated universe of current and recent music.  Our format utilizes a blend of past and present country favourites programmed from a larger universe designed to celebrate excellence in country music without overexposure.

4182             We lace it with generous layers of local and regional news and sports, weather info pertinent to a town and country listener mix,  meaningful business and farm info, PSA's, community awareness bits all relevant to our type of listener.

4183             The new CKOT country will continue to support Canadian talent from our region and beyond, who receive little exposure on the tightly formatted, bigger city stations.  Our weekly "Homegrown Country" new artist interview and music program, plus our "Homegrown Idol Competition" will allow area pickers and singers to perform on the air with listeners and judges selecting the best, all culminating in a recording session for the winners.

4184             Our "Country Connection" will utilize a remote trailer with live broadcasts from area communities and events.

4185             The new CKOT Country will continue with locally produced ethnic cultural programming, such as "Building Bridges," a feature on our diverse communities.  Three hours of weekly ethnic programming, consistent with the Commission's desire for broadcasters to reflect Canada's ethnic cultural diversity and contribute to the production of programming.

4186             MR. DANIEL:  With the ability to broadcast 24 hours a day, the new CKOT Country will improve on an already impressive local service.  Our seasoned newsroom of nine professionals, with over 170 years of combined experience prepares and delivers all newscasts with the help of stringers throughout the region.

4187             We will present news on the hour from six a.m. to eleven p.m. daily, plus agricultural news and country living features.  Since one company owns the regional newspapers, the new CKOT Country will be the primary alternate area news voice.  Our news and information content, all locally planned and produced by station staff and not by broadcast news readers elsewhere, is specifically designed for our unique listening audience.

4188             It will, by far, exceed anything currently available on FM in this region.

4189             MR. CRAIG:  There has been some confusion coming from some quarters regarding our application, and it's important to understand that we did not respond to the call for Woodstock.  In its Notice of Public Hearing the CRTC clearly did not regard our application as one for Woodstock, but only in competition for 104.7.

4190             We are simply applying for a flip of our existing daytime only AM license to full‑time, 24 hour FM service.  Granting this license will not, by CRTC definition, constitute licensing a new station.  It will upgrade an existing service.

4191             Converting CKOT AM to 104.7 will improve its prime trading area signal and extend its broadcast day to compete on a level playing field with the multitude of broadcasters readily received in our area, and licensing CKOT AM as an FM will not impact on revenues of any of those existing stations. However, an additional new license in Woodstock would have serious negative effect on both of our existing Tillsonburg stations' revenues.

4192             MR. LAMERS:  As a conservative estimate, over 25 per cent of Tillsonburg Broadcasting's annual revenues are realized through our sales efforts in Woodstock, Ingersoll and surrounding areas, all of which would naturally be the primary sales target for a new Woodstock station.

4193             Reduction of that portion of our income will have a serious impact on the financial wellbeing of this company, but in addition, all of the Woodstock applicants show significant three millivolt encroachment over the current Tillsonburg CMA.  And two of the applicants, CHUM and Standard, drop their strongest 3 millivolt signal right into downtown Tillsonburg, right onto my doorstep.

4194             These are obvious direct threats to us with disastrous potentials.  Any new FM station in Woodstock would have a serious negative financial impact on our long standing sales in Woodstock Ingersoll and the full Oxford County market we have always served.  It would cause financial erosion and inflict hardship upon us.

4195             MR. CRAIG:  I refer the Commissioners to decision CRTC 99‑480, rendered on October 28th, '99, stating under the heading of:

                      "Market Impact.  The possibility that licensing too many stations in a market could lead to a reduction in the quality of service to the local community remains of concern to the Commission.  The economic condition of the market and the likely financial impact of the proposed station upon existing stations in the market will therefore be relevant."

4196             MR. LAMERS:  We are existing stations in the market and we will be hurt.  Plainly stated, although we have been successful small market broadcasters up until now, should the Commission approve any new radio license for Woodstock, we foresee the possibility of overall operating losses.

4197             If the license for 104.7 is not awarded to Tillsonburg Broadcasting to flip CKOT AM to FM, there will be drastic outcomes for us.  A potential for reduced live programming on CKOT FM, cutbacks on our already fragile AM operation with negative impact on the listener.  Most importantly, it will not resolve our 50 year sunrise to sunset problem.

4198             Deny our flip and add another sales force in the market, the result is a reduction of Easy 101 and CKOT AM revenues putting the future of this family business in serious jeopardy.

4199             MR. CRAIG:  I'd like Stu to flip to map number one, and you have copies of these maps again at the back of your copy of our presentation and we can answer lots of questions on these as we move along after the presentation.

4200             Before we wrap up, here's what Tillsonburg Broadcasting will get and give up when awarded 104.7.  Our current AM full coverage area, that is the CKOT AM point 5 Millivolt interference‑free contour, which is the traditional standard for AM full coverage measurement, and encompasses a huge region of Southern Ontario.  There are 1.4 million people living inside that contour.

4201             Now, will you flip to map number 2, Stu.  It's important to understand that the CKOT AM five millivolt contour comparison with the proposed 1047.5 millivolt contour required in the CRTC application is a classic apples and oranges comparison.  It outlines only the close coverage area of our existing CKOT AM compared with the proposed full coverage 104.7 pattern.

4202             It does not compare our current AM full coverage to the new FM full coverage.  And all too often the realities of pertinent market and coverage comparisons are incorrectly stated or misused and misrepresented by some parties when using the various contours to make their case.

4203             Our new CKOT Country at 104.7 will actually fall short of the existing licensed CKOT AM coverage.  On the other hand, it will be strong enough to adequately cover our traditional trading areas, reflecting our stated goal to serve our audience and market area in a much improved manner.

4204             Our 104.7 signal will actually reduce the population reach within the new full coverage contour to roughly 310,000.  But we recognize that this sacrifice is necessary to provide the appropriate 24 hour signal our primary service area audience expects.

4205             Stu, number 3 there.  We would be remiss in not addressing the approach by Byrnes a few weeks ago that they talked about in their application this morning when a potential solution was proposed for us.  If we would accept an alternate frequency from a tower in the centre of Tillsonburg, we could withdraw from this hearing and resubmit for the flip with their suggested frequency.  That's what they suggested.

4206             Now, we appreciate the Byrnes' effort to solve our technical difficulties along with their generous offer of the alternate frequency they said would be suitable to us.  However, we subsequently commissioned, at our expense an engineering study by Jim Moltner to evaluate the technical merit of the Byrnes' proposal.

4207             As presented, its omni‑directional signal would have a radius of 16 kilometres east, west and south, and without at least a 200 foot tower in the middle of Tillsonburg, barely five kilometres north would be the coverage due to the rise in natural terrain.

4208             Such a tower in Tillsonburg would not be approved by the Town and, as such, the signal would serve less than 20 per cent of the area with 12.5 per cent of the population covered by our 104.7 upgrade, when you give it to us, and less than three per cent of our current .5 millivolt full coverage AM pattern that we have now.  Clearly this would not benefit our listeners or our clientele and is not nearly as suitable as Byrnes contended.

4209             Regrettably, this frequency is therefore not acceptable and we have no choice other than to reject it, but we do applaud their attempt.

4210             Number 4, Vanna.  During our consulting engineer's study of that frequency, he found that another frequency, 94.3, that with proper tower placement could work very well for any of the Woodstock applicants, nicely covering both Woodstock and Ingersoll.

4211             Although it would not reach London or Stratford or Kitchener or Brantford, it would be more than adequate for a commendable concept of a truly local broadcasting source for Woodstock and for Ingersoll, as proposed by each of the call applicants.  And it should be acceptable by each if their genuine intent is only to provide for the local listener needs of the Woodstock, Ingersoll market, without a covetous eye on surrounding larger markets like London and Kitchener‑Waterloo.

4212             MR. LAMERS:  In summary, we are  the only Canadian broadcaster left dealing with a daytime only frequency.  We we've tried to make this work for the betterment of our community, sir, for over fifty years.  An FCC decision in '92 prevented us from caring out a CRTC directive to improve the signal.

4213             In '99 the Commission awarded the 102.3 opportunity to fix CKOT AM to CHUM for London.  A relaxation of the adjacency rules has now given us another chance to resolve this long‑standing and, I may add, embarrassing problem.  I suspect it might be a bit embarrassing to the Commission as well.  And this could be the last chance for us to implement a such a conversion due to the scarcity of FM frequencies.

4214             By granting us 104.7, the Commission will show support of small market broadcasters and permit our station to move into its next fifty years serving our communities better.

4215             To survive as a small market broadcaster it has been essential that we focus on community with high quality, diverse programming, meeting the specific needs of our prime coverage area.

4216             We have, throughout our existence, lived up to and exceeded our application to the Broadcasting Act.  Our programming is varied and comprehensive providing a mix of information, enlightenment and enjoyment ‑‑ entertainment, sorry,  of high standard and balanced on matters of public affairs.

4217             We are a truly independent news voice.  We reflect the ethnic cultural diversity of our region.  The public benefit we bring to the table is our ability to carry on a tradition of high quality, locally produced programming mirroring the needs, hopes, challenges and triumphs of our listeners.  We have survived by being relevant to our community every day.

4218             If this application is denied, the Commission would once again take away its opportunity to let a small market broadcaster do what it does best; serve its public.  It would also send a clear message to the Canadian radio industry that grassroots programming from the heart of the community isn't important, and perhaps all of us little broadcasters should just allow ourselves to be eaten up by the broadcasting giants.

4219             MR. CRAIG:  The most sensible  use of the 104 frequency is  a flip of CKOT AM, a long‑awaited remedy, without which the long‑term viability of both of our operations will be in question.

4220             Chairman Dalfen, in your speech to the BES and OAB of April 12th you said:

                      "For established local broadcasters, particularly those operating in smaller markets, the granting of new licenses can sometimes give rise to concerns about market fragmentation."

4221             You raised the issue whether markets in question can absorb new commercial stations without causing an undue impact on existing licensees and you went on to say:

                      "Our overall approach recognizes that the public interest is well served when Canadian broadcasting enterprises are financially strong, because financial strength enables them to invest in high quality of service, a wide range of service offerings tailored to the needs of our diverse population."

4222             We ask you not to let this opportunity go the way of the family farm.  Rather, let us enter the next half century with a chance to grow and better serve our friends and neighbours. Granting of 104.7 to Tillsonburg Broadcasting will allow CKOT AM the last remaining daytime only radio station in Canada to comply with a long‑standing Commission directive to change to full‑time status and, more importantly, to adequately and appropriately serve our listeners.

4223             We thank you for your time and attention and we are open for your questions.

4224             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

4225             I'm going to ask Commissioner Cugini to put most of the questions to you, but just before she does, the chart that you have up there with the 94.3 analysis, have you discussed that with any of the other applicants today?

4226             MR. CRAIG:  No, not at all.  We ‑‑ Jim discovered that on the way through.  We understand and we know perfectly well that 94.3 is where Sound of Faith is now, but Jim, in his efforts, also found some opportunities for them.

4227             They are a low power, they could be displaced by it, but certainly there are other alternatives for them.

4228             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  So you haven't discussed this with any of the applicants, including Sound of Faith?

4229             MR. CRAIG:  No, it just came up.

4230             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  The questioning will not be on what your suggestion is for them, but rather on your proposal and its variants.  Commissioner Cugini.

4231             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you and good afternoon.

4232             Your position is very clear to us and you've made it quite clear and the challenges of being Canada's only daytime radio station and these comments are very useful.

4233             So ‑‑ I'm not an engineer.  It's the end of a long day, so I'm going to be ask you to please be gentle, but I do wants to understand this issue of the frequency as suggested by Byrnes a bit more, as well as what you have said to us here today.

4234             You know for a fact that the 200 foot tower will not be approved by the town?

4235             MR. CRAIG:  We absolutely know that.  You cannot put a 200 foot tower in the centre of an urban area just off the main street of a town like Tillsonburg.

4236             There was a situation where we were looking at 110 foot tower back a few years ago for an SBL, and there was no way that that would be approved, so obviously the 200 foot tower.  Just so you understand the terrain situation, we're not too far from Lake Erie, and everything from Lake Erie goes uphill.

4237             And just above Tillsonburg, about two kilometres to the north of our position on the main streets of Tillsonburg is where the brow of that hill is and if you ever came to Tillsonburg you would see that the Main Street has quite a defined accent, if you will, to it.  So consequently there's quite a rise, and in order to get a signal over that would take a 200 foot tower plus.

4238             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And so ‑‑ this is the reason why you reject the suggestion by Byrnes that you use this frequency?

4239             MR. CRAIG:  The coverage also, as we point out, takes us from ‑‑ we have this huge AM signal now which we are contracting into a smaller FM signal which will cover off our trading area ‑‑ our listening area, and our traditional trading area, and they want us to go down to a circle like this.  And I believe you have a copy of that.

4240             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Yes.

4241             MR. CRAIG:  Stu, maybe you could bring that map up just to show those three contours.

4242             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Would this frequency solve your daytime issue?  Would it provide you with a 24 hour ‑‑

4243             MR. CRAIG:  Are you talking about the ‑‑

4244             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  The smaller.

4245             MR. CRAIG:  The smaller.  It would serve to give us a 24 hour license to what?  To 30,000 listeners.

4246             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Since receiving the Byrnes suggestion have you considered whether to keep your current situation with your AM station and apply for a second FM station using this frequency?

4247             MR. CRAIG:  The 104.7 frequency was found by our consulting engineer after a lengthy search and that 104.7 frequency is the only one which will work from our existing FM tower.  That's the reason we've applied for it.

4248             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So you would not consider keeping your existing AM station and launching a new FM station using the frequency found by Byrnes?

4249             MR. LAMERS:  Not with the coverage ‑‑ it's basically just Tillsonburg, and we said ‑‑ we had ‑‑ 1955, we shouldn't be penalized at this point.  We've got a coverage there of 1.4 million people.  We're suggesting that we're looking at 310,000 people.

4250             But it's ‑‑ that is our main trading area, our main coverage area that we deal with every day.  But not 30,000 people.

4251             MR. CRAIG:  That 1.4 million within the larger contour, the full coverage contour of the AM station, we obviously know that we do not reach nor do we have listeners in the outer fringes, but in the area which is covered by the 104.7, that is very much where we have the majority of our listenership.

4252             It's within that 104.7 area and that's what we want to cover properly, adequately and appropriately with a full coverage 104.7 contour.

4253             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  The frequency that you talked about today, the 94.3, you say that it would be acceptable for the other applicants.

4254             MR. CRAIG:  It could very nicely cover off ‑‑ all of the applicants have been saying we want to be local to Woodstock and Ingersoll.  They have, all of them, to your questions, suggested that they don't have any designs on London or Kitchener or Stratford or any of the outside areas, so this should be very adequate to them because it is a good coverage of the Ingersoll and Woodstock area, that part of Oxford County that they say they want to cover as a local radio station.

4255             Therefore, we would question why they wouldn't find it acceptable unless, of course, eventually they expect to be broadcasting to London and Kitchener and other environs, which is not their reason for applying here.

4256             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Just so I can understand, why is this frequency not acceptable to you?

4257             MR. CRAIG:  The 94.3.

4258             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Yes.

4259             MR. CRAIG:  Jim.

4260             MR. MOLTNER:  It does not work as well in Tillsonburg.

4261             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  As well as?

4262             MR. MOLTNER:  As what we've shown for Woodstock.

4263             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  It would not be a clear signal in Tillsonburg?

4264             MR. MOLTNER:  Yes, it would, but we have a regional service whereas the other applicants are talking about a local service.  So we don't find it logical to switch our regional service to a local service and ‑‑ giving their local service what basically will amount to a regional service because they'll get coverage into London, for example.

4265             MR. CRAIG:  I think also, Jim, we should add that the 94.3 would require us to acquire land, build a new transmitter housing site, which would be significantly further away from our tower.  We would have to acquire new land, build a new tower for the frequency.

4266             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Could you just elaborate and tell me what that is please?

4267             MR. CRAIG:  Because it would not work from our existing tower, 94.3.

4268             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So you would have to expand?

4269             MR. CRAIG:  We would have to buy land elsewhere, about 15 kilometres away, put up a tower, build a new transmitter site, building, et cetera, et cetera.

4270             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you have a ballpark estimate as to what kind of expenditure that would entail?

4271             MR. CRAIG:  I would say that it would be ‑‑  Stu.

4272             MR. BAYLEY:  I would estimate conservatively it would be three to $400,000.  The tower alone would be 250, plus land, plus hydro, transmitters, STL's.  So I don't think we've ever discussed the ‑‑ that aspect.  We didn't feel it was a logical or proper way to go.

4273             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  How long would that take?

4274             MR. BAYLEY:  To get land.

4275             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  An do the build.

4276             MR. BAYLEY:  I would think probably the biggest concern would be getting the land, buying the land.  I would think probably three months tower building once we let the contract to the tower people.  And then transmitters ‑‑ you get everything sort of running all at the same time once you got the land.

4277             MR. CRAIG:  Then you have to contend with weather, et cetera.

4278             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you very much for that.

4279             I'm now going to move on to your proposal.  Your application as you submitted it.  And I'm going to start with asking you questions with regard to your local programming.

4280             If you were here today you should have anticipated the question.  And you've committed to 42 hours of local programming.  Could you just break down those 42 hours for me.  News ‑‑ how much is going to be news, how much is going to be spoken word and how much is going to be open line programming?

4281             MR. CRAIG:  In actual fact, it will be much more than 42 hours.  I think the required minimum is 42 hours of local programming.  We will be on the air for the entire broadcast week from six A to 12 midnight, Monday through Sunday, with this license.

4282             At this point in time we are only on from sunrise to sunset.  That will be expanded from six A to twelve midnight, seven day s a week, which I think is 126 hours per week.

4283             Our news ‑‑ Jerry, I think you have the numbers there in terms of the amount of news.

4284             MR. DANIEL:  We're looking at newscasts on the hour, every hour, six a.m. to eleven p.m., and that works out to about 14 hours.

4285             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  How long will the newscasts be?

4286             MR. DANIEL:  The majority would be five minutes, but in specified times they would run ten minutes.  That's news, weather and sports.

4287             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  What would be the specified times in which they would run for ten minutes?

4288             MR. DANIEL:  Eight a.m., twelve noon, five, six and eleven.

4289             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you have a breakdown of how much will be local news, international, some have called it provincial or regional.

4290             MR. DANIEL:  Based on what we're doing now, we're well in excess of 70 per cent on our local regional coverage.

4291             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Is there going to be any other spoken word programming on the schedule?

4292             MR. DANIEL:  We will have features. We have a Tobacco Talk program now that really is geared to the tobacco industry, and we'll probably do other things as well.

4293             MR. CRAIG:  Yes, there will be a number of other features which we're planning, which were outlined in our supplementary brief.

4294             There are farm business newscasts.  We have weather information, special marine weather forecasts that go on the half hour in the summer time.  We have road conditions during the winter time.  We have features such as Building Bridges, a weekly ongoing series of 90 second features and vignettes featuring the contributions of the ethno‑cultural communities in our area.

4295             "The End of the 21st Century," another series of ninety second features produced weekly focusing on rural and urban community trends, et cetera, et cetera.  We certainly have and will continue and will be adding other features that are pertinent and appropriate to a rural mix with an urban mix of audience that enjoy country music.

4296             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Is that your program "Farm Line" then?

4297             MR. CRAIG:  "Farm Line" is another one.

4298             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  It fits in perfectly with that.  And I understand that to be a phone‑in show?

4299             MR. CRAIG:  Yes, that would be running on Saturday morning.  We've been taking a look as a possibility for Saturday morning spoken work broadcasts throughout the year.  And it would be, I think, a rather interesting program to people in the rural community.

4300             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you do any such programming currently?

4301             MR. CRAIG:  No, with a sunrise to sunset license, which changes all over the place ‑‑ Doug can talk about, perhaps, some of the nightmares.  Doug.

4302             MR. COOPER:  I can address that. It's a scheduling nightmare.  For us to do any kind of feature programming, if I was to put it on at seven o'clock at night, well, that can only happen for a few months.  For example, in December we sign off at 5:15.  January we're off at 4:45.

4303             It's a scheduling nightmare just to schedule announcers and run the programs, let alone doing feature programs.

4304             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you have any ‑‑ what about on your AM station?  Any open line programming?

4305             MR. CRAIG:  No, we don't have any open line programming on our AM station whatsoever.  And again, that's because it's sunrise to sunset.

4306             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Are you therefore, aware, that the Commission has a policy regarding open line programming?

4307             MR. CRAIG:  Yes.

4308             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And are you prepared to commit to the ‑‑

4309             MR. CRAIG:  Absolutely.  We have to with our type of audience.

4310             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you anticipate that there will be any programming synergies or otherwise with your current radio station on AM?

4311             MR. CRAIG:  I'm going to let John talk about the synergies between both sides.  The AM and FM.

4312             MR. LAMERS:  Sorry.  We do utilize AM and FM staff now for commercials, for news, for programming.  We have what I would consider excellent staff that have been there many years, for a lot of people.  It's difficult to set up an AM station that runs sunrise to sunset and operate in the summer months six a.m. to nine p.m. and then all of a sudden in the winter months get rid of two people.

4313             I have to walk the streets and deal with these people and their families, and it's most difficult to do that.  But we do use staff for both, but we could see an increase in some staff from possibly two in the news area, two in sales, and possibly two in programming.

4314             MR. CRAIG:  And perhaps a production person.  This will impact the hiring at our station by somewhere between five and seven people.

4315             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  An increase in staff from five to seven people if the flip occurs?

4316             MR. CRAIG:  Yes.

4317             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Would those five to seven people be dedicated solely to this new FM or would you continue with sharing some of those resources with your AM?

4318             MR. CRAIG:  As it stands right now, we don't need anybody in the evening.  We're going definitely to have to have another news person in the evening and another on‑air person in the evening.

4319             Also by going full‑time you require staff for what we call swing.  People who can fit into various shifts while other people are away.  So that adds to the on‑air staff of the news room and the programming staff.

4320             Then of course with a larger station, we're going to be trying to sell more advertising, so we need to add some sales staff.  The other thing that we've discussed is the potential of a production person, dedicated production person, so that's how we come up with the number 7 and I think that's a very realistic figure.

4321             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  How many people do you have in your news room currently?

4322             MR. CRAIG:  Nine full‑time news people.  Sorry, a combination of full‑time and part‑time in the news room totalling nine, plus a number of stringers that are around Oxford County and our total coverage area that also contribute to the news coverage.

4323             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Would it be the stringers that ‑‑ because in your supplementary brief you say that you've been approached by Woodstock municipal official citizens to provide a higher level of coverage of the area.  Would it be through these stringers that you would be providing coverage?

4324             MR. CRAIG:  As it stands, we provide pretty extensive coverage of Woodstock.  You know, we've been hearing over and over that Woodstock is not getting any news coverage, Ingersoll is not getting any news coverage.

4325             To be really frank, it really offends us because I know Jerry walked in back about two months ago with a sheaf of news stories over the previous week that we counted up and there was a huge number of news stories that all geared on Oxford County and Woodstock and Ingersoll, those two markets, along with Tillsonburg, which is part of Oxford County.  We do cover it.

4326             But we also use stringers to bring us news coverage from those areas and beyond.  But beyond that, we had some discussions that, you know, there's a possibility that we could put a news bureau in Woodstock.  That's something that certainly we should perhaps take a look at and a potential of a broadcast ‑‑ a news broadcast studio at Woodstock.

4327             Of course, we'd have to be very careful that we're not stepping on a local Woodstock station too if you were to perhaps license that.  Those are things that we have to work out, but it's easy for us to take a look ahead and project potentials that would be very, very good for Woodstock and for Ingersoll.

4328             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you have an idea how much of your local programming does comprise coverage of the Woodstock area?

4329             MR. CRAIG:  Jerry.

4330             MR. DANIEL:  Monday through Friday, because it's a different mix than Saturday and Sunday, I think we all realize that.  I would say Woodstock, Ingersoll would comprise probably, on any given week, Monday through Friday ‑‑

4331             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  On average.

4332             MR. DANIEL:  50 to 60 per cent of our stories are from those areas.  As a matter of fact, on a really good day our editors pretty well have to sort out stories as they're reading, as they're watching the clock, because we have so many that they have to make an instant judgment.  Time is getting short, I'm going to ignore that one and go with this story because it's of more importance.

4333             But we do serve ‑‑ I agree with Jim that there was a by‑election in Woodstock in May and we had two people covering the results of that by‑election.  We had the winner, Sandra Talbot, interviewed and her comments were on the air the very next morning.

4334             So to say that we don't cover ‑‑ or Woodstock is sort of like a wasteland really isn't a true picture of what we are doing on a daily basis, seven days a week.

4335             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Your format, your country format, I just want a little bit more detail with regard to that.

4336             MR. CRAIG:  The AM station has been a country format for a number of years now.  Since 1954.

4337             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And it will continue to be a country format station?

4338             MR. CRAIG:  Yes, there is no change in that country format whatsoever.

4339             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So you won't be adding traditional bluegrass or old‑time country or country gospel to the mix?

4340             MR. CRAIG:  Our country format, as it sits right now, has a mix.  It's a larger universe of music that is aired on AM 1510.

4341             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Um‑hum.

4342             MR. CRAIG:  And it includes, for instance, a lot of emerging Canadian talent.  It includes old time music.  It includes current music.  It is a mix of music.  Current, recent and some old time ‑‑ do we have bluegrass, no, we don't have a program which is dedicated to bluegrass, but certainly if it is ‑‑ if it fits the mix, then there wouldn't be any reason for Flatt & Scruggs not to go in.

4343             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  The reason I ask the question is because there is a Category 3 Country Music category in ‑‑ that is a specialty category in our regulations, and if you are to do that kind of music then you would have to abide by the ten per cent.

4344             MR. CRAIG:  Yes.

4345             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I was probing to see whether or not that is a requirement of this license, that we impose that as a condition.

4346             MR. CRAIG:  I can't see a reason why not or why that would be a difficulty with us.

4347             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Would that be a limitation if we were to impose the condition?

4348             MR. CRAIG:  Doug.

4349             MR. COOPER:  We would have no problem with a limitation put on as far as playing bluegrass, some of the traditional country.  Not at all.

4350             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  The other side of the question is do you want that condition?

4351             MR. COOPER:  Yes, we do.

4352             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You do.

4353             MR. COOPER:  Yes.

4354             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  In term of your audience share, we've seen BBM numbers, and the country station CJBX‑FM from London garners a 21 per cent 12 plus tuning share in the Tillsonburg market.  And your proposed FM station will continue to offer the same country format.

4355             What portion, if any, of this 21 per cent out of market tuning to CJBX FM London, do you expect?

4356             MR. CRAIG:  First of all, I want to make sure we do not ‑‑ our country radio station is very different from BX93.

4357             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Perhaps you could explain to me how it's different.

4358             MR. CRAIG:  They're much more current, recurrent.  We are more of a mix of yesterday and today, perhaps leaning a little more on yesterday.

4359             The other thing that comes into play with our particular station is the fact that we don't have a problem with an artist, a country artist who is not charted walking in with their record and, on merit, playing it on the air.  So we're much more likely to be airing a different set of music than BX93, partially because of the larger universe, partially because we accept Canadian talent which is not charted.

4360             I'm sure you're going to hear more about that from one of the interveners.  Now, the other part of the question?

4361             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Is how much of that audience to you expect to repatriate?

4362             MR. CRAIG:  I'm not so sure that we'll have a great impact on BX93's audience, except in the close in area of Tillsonburg and Oxford County.  Certainly, I don't think we would hurt them in their London and immediate surrounding London area.  I would doubt that we would get any more than three or four per cent.

4363             As you get closer to Tillsonburg, as you get into Oxford County, Woodstock, et cetera, because of our presence within those ‑‑ or that particular market, obviously you're going to have a higher profile and a ‑‑ hopefully a very good image and for that reason you might repatriate some of the people who are in your immediate area who are listening now to BX93.  We would hope we would get all of those.

4364             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you expect to get any advertising from Woodstock or London?

4365             MR. CRAIG:  We do now.

4366             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You do now.

4367             MR. CRAIG:  As our presentation said, we get ‑‑ 25 per cent of our current revenues come from the Woodstock, Ingersoll, Oxford County area.  That's a huge amount.  And, again, to go back to the presentation, anyone who's licensed in Woodstock is definitely going to hurt us from a financial ‑‑ no matter what they say, it's going to hurt us from a fiscal standpoint.

4368             Our revenues will be lowered and you take away 25 per cent of our revenues, that's a serious difficulty.

4369             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  If we approve the flip, by how much do you expect that 25 per cent to increase?

4370             MR. CRAIG:  I think we can go right into the pro forma ‑‑ Mike.

4371             MR. BOSSY:  We're expecting a 20 per cent increase in revenue the first year and then five per cent thereafter.

4372             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And five per cent thereafter.

4373             MR. BOSSY:  That's right.

4374             MR. CRAIG:  The first bump will be obviously in the first year.

4375             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  The majority of the increase occurring in the first year.

4376             MR. CRAIG:  Yes.

4377             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

4378             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Langford.

4379             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  It's not your job to make our life easier, and you haven't.  It's our job to find solutions, no matter what's presented to us and we're going to.

4380             I don't know who will like them in the end and I don't know what they are yet, but we're building a record here and so I have some questions for you and some hypothetical instances, because the more information we can get on this record the better chance we have of finding a solution.  It's as simple as that.

4381             MR. CRAIG:  Creative solutions.

4382             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I don't know if it will be creative.  if you can stand a story, when I practiced law for years, there were always two parties and there was only one miserable at the end who hated you, but in this business there are sometimes seven or eight that hate us at the end of the day, there's so many parties.  But there's always one that loves us and that's nice.

4383             You're on ‑‑ I'm interested in this business of the tower.  You can't build a 200 foot tower.  Fine, I appreciate that.  Where is your AM tower now?

4384             MR. CRAIG:  The AM tower is south of Tillsonburg ‑‑ how many kilometres is that?

4385             MR. MOLTNER:  12.

4386             MR. CRAIG:  12 kilometres south at a little place called Glen Meyer and it's down toward the lake.

4387             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  How high is it?

4388             MR. CRAIG:  It's an array of towers.  Stu, this is bailiwick.

4389             MR. BAYLEY:  Yes.  There's three towers 160 feet tall.

4390             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Each one is 160 tall?

4391             MR. BAYLEY:  Yes, right now, yes.

4392             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  What kind of shape are they in?

4393             MR. BAYLEY:  They've been up since 1974.

4394             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Painted them lately, have you?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

4395             MR. BAYLEY:  They've been painted and the lights are still working.  I wouldn't want to climb them though.

4396             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Is that because they wouldn't hold a slip of a fellow like you or because you're scared of heights?

4397             MR. BAYLEY:  You got that one.

4398             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  There are ‑‑ you've pretty well shot down, and that's fine, the alternatives that have been offered to you or other alternatives you've found.  But you haven't said anything about perhaps finding another AM frequency.  And there are some available, according to our engineers.  And I wonder, since you got the towers ‑‑ we wouldn't suggest that to someone who wasn't on AM because it's a big expense to build three towers and whatnot, but you've got the three towers and not all AMs have to be turned off at sunset.  Heck of a curfew, isn't it?

4399             I just wonder whether you've had a look at that and whether you can give me some feedback on the possibility of sticking with your AM format, sticking with your tried and true AM listeners.  You've obviously got some.  You're not losing money.  What's wrong with that as a solution?

4400             MR. CRAIG:  Boy, I tell you, we've looked at it.  I'm going to defer to probably Jim and Stu, first of all, here because I think they can tell you more about the technical side and then maybe the realities of the financial we'll talk about.  Which one of you want to take that?

4401             MR. MOLTNER:  I'm not sure which frequencies you're talking about, but in general every AM frequency is its own little beast.  You cannot just take three towers and move them to another frequency.

4402             You might need twelve towers, you might need six towers.  You might need a lot more land than you have currently because, you know, at 500 kilohertz, for example, the wavelength is ‑‑ I hate to get technical, but three times as large as at 1500 kilohertz, so you need three time the land, all things being equal.

4403             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Could you say that again?  Excuse me.  Give me that piece of information again, sorry.

4404             MR. MOLTNER:  At 500 kilohertz versus 1500 kilohertz.

4405             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Right.

4406             MR. MOLTNER:  The wavelength is three times as long, so in general your towers have to be spaced three times as far from each other.

4407             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Where are you at now?  Your AM frequency.

4408             MR. MOLTNER:  1510.

4409             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  If I were to tell you that 1610 is available, what would that do to your ‑‑ off the top of your head?

4410             MR. MOLTNER:  1610 is in the expanded band.  There's no receivers out there.

4411             MR. CRAIG:  Above 1600.  The other thing is the ground system that has to be changed, totally changed.

4412             MR. MOLTNER:  There's three things here.  One is every AM array, unlike an FM where you can put small antenna on anyone's tower, every AM array pretty well is a very complicated, unique thing.  That's the first thing.

4413             The second thing is the existing site is in bad shape.  The ground system needs replacement, et cetera.  And the third thing is we're talking about AM versus FM, and I know one person who listens to AM.

4414             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, there must be more than one, because you're not losing money.  What is your commitment to AM in the sense that we often hear ‑‑ I'm asking you for your view, I not trying to sell you on a view, but we do often hear from people that we don't want to get out of AM.  That we ‑‑ even when stations are losing money, that we have committed listeners and we have, you know, faithful listeners and we don't want to leave them behind.  Often, in fact, it is a country format.  It  seems to work well with it.

4415             Do you feel a commitment to these people that would ‑‑ to this traditional delivery system and to the people that rely on it?

4416             MR. CRAIG:  We want to be able to serve our listeners better.  In order to move to another AM frequency if we were to get an approval, the technical approvals out of the FCC, we've gone that route before.

4417             We've been turned back by the ‑‑ we were approved by the Commission back in '92 and then turned back by the FCC.  There was another subsequent to that attempt which was turned back by the FCC.

4418             There are many protections.  There are a lot of stations down in the States that are still on frequencies that have to be protected and so on.  But the other thing is, we owe it, we think, to our audience to provide as good a signal as we possibly can.  That's why we wanted, first of all, to move to the FM band to be able to provide that better signal.

4419             The other thing that comes into place is the cost.  The difference in cost between installing a new FM and installing new AM is huge.  As I remember one of the ‑‑ maybe I should let you guys take this because I don't want to go by hearsay here from what I remember, but it's a huge difference in cost because you have more towers.

4420             The ground system that has to be put into place.  There is also the ongoing cost of continuing to power up that AM transmitter and perhaps ‑‑

4421             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We're well aware of that.  I thought there might be some hope that one of the five frequencies that I have listed here available might work with the configuration you have.  I had no information as to the situation of condition, but ‑‑

4422             MR. CRAIG:  We've probably looked at those frequencies too at one point.

4423             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That's why I asked if you had looked at them.  There's something about the presentation you gave us that leaves me a little bit kind of at a loose end and I understand obviously in the abstract you wanting to serve your listeners better.  You want to tell them about the weather and the school closings and the very sorts of things you mentioned in your opening remarks.

4424             But at the same time, you are serving the FM people with that already.  So bringing that message on another FM station isn't going to serve FM listeners ‑‑ let me finish ‑‑ with anything new in the sense of emergency information, closures, road conditions, whatever.  The FM listeners are already getting that.

4425             If you switch to a second FM they'll get it twice, fine, but you've left the AM listeners ‑‑ I mean I know that's not a huge ‑‑ and compared to the cost it may not be a relevant argument, but I just wonder what particular ‑‑ though it would be nice for you to have a 24 hour a day frequency, a service, you're still not adding any emergency information to FM listeners, are you?

4426             MR. CRAIG:  Yes, we are, absolutely.  We're talking two totally different audiences here.  Totally different.  Easy 101 has an audience that listen to a style of music and a style of programming which is completely different and there will be very, very little cross‑over between our AM listenership and when they go to FM in terms of the style of programming, the music that's programmed; very, very little cross‑over between the two audiences.

4427             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Surely, Mr. Craig ‑‑ I'm sorry, but surely when there's a an emergency, when there's three feet of snow on the ground or a couple of tornadoes coming through or something like that, you don't just stick with your preferred genre of music and hope against hope that the country station will deliver the news on whether you should send the kids out or not.  Surely you go under hunting.  And in a town the size of Tillsonburg, they must know you're there.

4428             On the other hand, on the bigger issue of us trying to balance needs here, poor old Woodstock's got nothing.  They've got nobody to listen to if we go down your route, give you another FM, give you your 25 per cent revenue from their market and leave them with nobody listen to if the three feet of snow's down at their end of the county.

4429             That's what I'm trying to balance here.  I understand your business case and I understand your preference for FM and I understand your preference for 24 hours, but surely to goodness if, as you told us, you're building your case on need to reach your local and regional residents, surely just as great a need exists on the other side of the county and they've got nothing at this point.  How do you respond to that?

4430             MR. CRAIG:  We provide to the listeners in Woodstock and Ingersoll.  We have a lot of listeners up there.  They already listen to us.

4431             In the case of ‑‑ let's say it's a tornado and somebody ‑‑ a tornado or some kind of a weather warning which is coming down the pipe.  Those people who are listening to our 1510 AM now are probably going to go down the AM dial and ‑‑ Heritage Station in London, CFPL‑AM puts a great signal into that area.  Then we have to get them back to our AM station.

4432             People move to whatever is convenient to them if they want that kind of information.  But that's not just the only reason that we're there.  We're there to provide good entertainment and music, et cetera, et cetera, in a country music vein with information that's laced through it, et cetera, and that's what we want to move to the FM band to be able to serve those people who like our style of broadcasting, serve them better.

4433             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.  Those are my questions, Mr. Chairman.

4434             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cram.

4435             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

4436             I would like to get some idea.  You say that if you got the one we're all fighting about, 104 frequency, you would have a coverage of a population of 310,000.  So clearly you've done some calculations about the other frequencies.

4437             MR. CRAIG:  Um‑hum.

4438             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Properly placed, and we were ‑‑ you were asked about 94.3 and you said it wasn't as good, 94.3.  What would be the population coverage?

4439             MR. CRAIG:  Jim, I don't know if you have that.  If ‑‑ did we really take a look at that population, Jim?

4440             MR. MOLTNER:  94.3 properly placed for Tillsonburg?

4441             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes, at its maximum what would be the population coverage?  I know there are babies being born every minute, but your estimate.

4442             MR. MOLTNER:  Well, that's good, because I only have 2001 data.  Could we get back to that figure in phase 2?

4443             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes, please.

4444             MR. MOLTNER:  Because I don't have it with me.

4445             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  At the same time there was ‑‑ didn't I see 107.3?

4446             MR. CRAIG:  The 107.3 that was proposed to us by Byrnes would have taken the total population covered by an AM to FM flip down 107.3 down to 30,000 people.

4447             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  That would have been 30,000.

4448             MR. CRAIG:  30,000 within that circle.  And that was if it had a full 16 kilometre radius using a 200 foot tower in the middle of Tillsonburg.

4449             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  If the town or city of Tillsonburg would have ‑‑

4450             MR. CRAIG:  Would approve it, which they would not.  So then you cut that back in the north end by ‑‑ and we're being very generous in saying that it will maybe get five kilometres north of the existing radio station.

4451             In actual fact, the brow of that hill is about two kilometres from the radio station and, again, you have to see the actual terrain rise to understand what we're talking about.  The rise in two kilometres is ‑‑ in just two kilometres is about 1650 feet.

4452             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I guess I didn't understand then, and, you know, I don't have the bridge on my little finger like Mr. Moltner, I can't read that far either, so why wouldn't the tower be then placed on the brow of the hill?  Is there something prohibiting it and then there would be better coverage?

4453             MR. CRAIG:  It's called protections and property, but Jim.

4454             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  Technical stuff?  It just can't be done, is that what you're telling me?

4455             MR. CRAIG:  As you move a tower around, as you move your ‑‑ where your signal emanates around, you have different protections for adjacent stations or second adjacencies and so on and so forth.  What was proposed to us by Byrnes was a tower in the centre of Tillsonburg with a 16 kilometre radius at best.

4456             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So have you looked at the ability, then, to move the tower on to the brow of that ‑‑

4457             MR. MOLTNER:  Yes, we have and I can get you the population figures for that scenario as well.

4458             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  That would be great.

4459             MR. MOLTNER:  What we are addressing here is strictly what was proposed to us as a solution.

4460             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I hear you.  So I mean, clearly you've obviously looked at using 107, that's the Byrnes proposal, using that 107 frequency in different places to maximize its use.  Once you've done that, you can give me the numbers for that, the population coverage, could you?

4461             MR. MOLTNER:  That's correct.

4462             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Could you do that within ‑‑ I don't know.

4463             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Perhaps I could just expand that.  I guess what ‑‑ I don't know what Commissioner Cram, if this is what she's probing for, but I would certainly like to add that, which is if you were doing the study of the optimal use and location of that frequency, what would you do?  That's, I guess, the analysis.

4464             You may have been given a suggestion that we've missed the mark and it may have been just a suggestion.  We'll hear from Byrnes tomorrow.  But I haven't got an answer from you on the record, Mr. Moltner, yet as to whether in your analysis that is the optimal use of the 97.3 ‑‑ the optimal location for the 107 frequency and, if not, what is.  Could you comment on those?

4465             MR. MOLTNER:  That is not the optimal location for that frequency.  I have, of course, looked at what would be the optimal location of that frequency and I suppose I can file the results of my study, if that's what you desire.

4466             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you've already studied it.  I don't want to put the applicant to additional expense on this because it isn't in the applicant's proposal, but if you have that and you're willing to file it we'll be happy to look at it.

4467             MR. MOLTNER:  Okay.  Well, if I may, I'd like to discuss it with the applicant and we will get back to you with as much as we can in Phase 2.

4468             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's fair.

4469             MR. CRAIG:  I think we also have to add here, going to one 107.3, as proposed, adds significant additional cost to us, number 1, but I think, more importantly, the 104.7 works well for us, and our proposal of 94.3 would work very well for them and achieve what they are looking for.

4470             They've said over and over and over again local, local, local.  That's what they're looking for.  The 94.3 solution gives them local and more.  It gives them the Woodstock, Ingersoll and the ‑‑ a fair chunk of surrounding area so they can be truly local there.

4471             It works better for them than certainly it would work for us or 107.3 would work for us.

4472             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I understand.  But we're asking you questions right now and ‑‑

4473             MR. CRAIG:  I wasn't asking a question, sorry.

4474             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I know.  We're asking you questions and we'll get the information from them too.

4475             MR. CRAIG:  Sure.

4476             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So you were going to provide us, Mr. Moltner, with the ‑‑ if the transmitter was put on the brow of that hill or mountain, you would be able to give us the coverage, the population coverage of that, notwithstanding whether or not you could give us the optimal use.

4477             MR. MOLTNER:  Yes.

4478             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And along with that, could you provide us with the estimated cost of having the transmitter on that site as opposed to the different ‑‑ and also the difference between the cost of having it on that that site and the site where you would presently propose to have 104, which is on your own site.  Just provide us with the cost differential.

4479             MR. MOLTNER:  We can do that.

4480             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Because we have to do this balancing and we need to see the numbers.  Could you maybe ‑‑ I don't know what's appropriate timing for that, Mr. Chair, but...

4481             THE CHAIRPERSON:  How soon do you think you could get it to us?

4482             MR. MOLTNER:  I'll work late tonight.

4483             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you can get it tomorrow that would be very helpful.

4484             MR. MOLTNER:  We'll have it for you tomorrow.

4485             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

4486             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And I have no more questions, thank you.

4487             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I just want to follow up, not on the technical issues, you'll be pleased to hear, but on the service.  You state, Mr. Craig, and you repeated in answer to a question that 25 per cent of your revenues is derived from the Woodstock, Ingersoll area.

4488             I'm trying to ‑‑ I'm trying ‑‑ I think you said earlier, I don't want to misquote you, that this wasn't a response to the call for Woodstock, but it was, rather, your own independent application.  So I'm trying to get in focus your position on whether or not you serve currently or intend to serve Woodstock and Ingersoll.

4489             You derive a quarter of your  revenues from there, your enhanced coverage ‑‑ would give you enhanced coverage there.  Why don't we have from you in this proceeding a kind of full package, a tri‑city package instead of an amendment of the  Tillsonburg antenna contours with full programming ‑‑ the appropriate share of programming, local programming, devoted to Ingersoll and Woodstock.

4490             MR. CRAIG:  We've been moving down the road looking for a flip for some time now of our AM to FM, and that particular frequency satisfied ‑‑ this is the latest attempt for us to satisfy that need for a flip to upgrade our service.

4491             Do we serve Woodstock and Ingersoll now?  You know, Jerry here would say absolutely yes in terms of news, information content, that which is important to those communities.

4492             We have kind of a golden triangle there of Tillsonburg, Woodstock and Ingersoll and that makes up the south end of Oxford County, and we were licensed originally for CKOT AM as a service to Oxford, Norfolk and Elgin counties.  That's why it has this huge signal that we've been dealing with.

4493             We prepared the application for the flip without any understanding that there would be a call and it just so happened that our application for the flip came in the day after the call.  That was our timing.  It was unfortunate timing.  We could have had it in literally months earlier, but we had other circumstances that prevented us from putting it in earlier.

4494             That's why we didn't go into this or come into this hearing to compete with the other applicants for Woodstock.  But we come back to the situation where any new radio station that is licensed for Oxford County is definitely going to hurt us right at home because that's where we derive so much of ‑‑ and that's the way it's been.

4495             This is not something new.  This is the way it's been for decades.  That's where we derive a very large proportion of our revenues.

4496             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  But I guess ‑‑ I mean, if I accept, as I do, your statement of the sequence of events, you would still have been free to respond to the call, notwithstanding that you had already ‑‑ you would have ‑‑ you could have withdrawn your application and say, oh, now that I see this is a Woodstock call, given where I'm going here and given what Jerry tells me we do anyway and given that 25 per cent of my revenues is for the area, I think I'll put in a combined application to respond to the call to serve the entire area.

4497             It will give me the flip and it will give me a way of ensuring that my signal serves those and what better way is there to forestall my competition than to actually go in and compete to serve those areas directly.

4498             So I guess that's all in the what might have been, but we're all trying to share with you our thinking in trying to do this balancing act, what is the optimal use of the 104 frequency given what we have on the table before us.

4499             MR. CRAIG:  I understand.  I fully understand.  That was a choice that we made to maintain our application for the flip rather than come in against the others for the call, but maybe I can add to that.  You know, I know John pretty well and we go back a number of years and we certainly go back to the hearing in 1999.

4500             And I guess the easiest way to put it and, please excuse me here, but we've already been burnt once back in '99 on the 102.3 and coming back into this one, what is the best likelihood for us to get a fix for this AM?

4501             The best likelihood is for us to go in for a flip of it to an FM, not try to get into a competition with ‑‑ we wouldn't know how many applications coming in.  As it turned out there were five applications.  It could have been 15 for us to go into that competition when, in fact, what we're looking for is, very simply, a flip so that we can serve Oxford County and obviously serve people in Woodstock and advertisers in Woodstock and Ingersoll, et cetera, et cetera better.

4502             That was our rationale.  Whether it's right or wrong strategically, who knows.  I don't know if that satisfies.

4503             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, it's your answer and I have it and I think that it's ‑‑ I appreciate your candour.

4504             Well, I think those are our questions, but I will give you an opportunity to put in any ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

4505             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I have a question before we finish and that is, as I understand it, CKVK once filled in Woodstock a local service role which would not have attracted the kind of comment that the last four or five years of the operation of the station has attracted here today.

4506             If that aside ‑‑ it was purchased by the current owner and the current owner changed the strategy, and that changed life substantially for the people in Woodstock.  Now, you've been selling it to Woodstock for a long time.  What happened when they changed the strategy to your revenues?

4507             MR. LAMERS:  They increased.

4508             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  That I could have concluded, Mr. Lamers, but give me some more ‑‑ a little more guidance.

4509             MR. LAMERS:  I would think on both our FM and AM we probably got somewhere in the neighbourhood of 15 to 20 per cent.

4510             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Increase?

4511             MR. LAMERS:  Increase.

4512             MR. CRAIG:  And I might add that we continued to serve them and do continue today to serve them with good coverage.

4513             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Yes, I think we have to underline that we're dealing with a scarce resource and I guess it always ‑‑ I can imagine it's difficult to anticipate the circumstances in which the application will be considered, but clearly for any applicant placing yourself in the situation not only of a keen pursuer of one's own objectives, very legitimate objectives, but also in the position of the people who have to deal with a whole range of keen pursuits of their own objectives which are mutually exclusive.  It just concentrates the mind on trying to find a solution which is going to be satisfactory for as many listeners as possible in the region.

4514             In conclusion, I'd just invite you again to take advantage of the very thoughtful Chairman's offer that he's made you.  Doesn't make it often in that spontaneous fashion.

4515             MR. CRAIG:  We're going to keep this very very brief.  We need 104.7.  We need it for a fix.  It's really the only frequency we have ‑‑ we've worked at this for a long time and worked at it very, very hard over the past couple or three years in trying to find something that would work.

4516             And we finally find a frequency that works on our existing towers, that satisfies our wish to be able to serve our audience and Oxford County, and it just happens to include Woodstock and Ingersoll in a very appropriate and adequate fashion.

4517             You know, we've taken a look at other opportunities here, the 94.3 option that works for any of the applicants that are there if they truly want to be Woodstock, Ingersoll radio stations, that works for them.  And we're certainly most willing to work with the Sound of Faith, both in Kitchener and in Woodstock in order to find something else for them if that were to come about.

4518             We really need this fix and there aren't ‑‑ there just aren't any fixes left out there, as far as we can see.  It's a very difficult situation for us and we want to be able to serve our public much better.  I could get into all of the other good things that we do.  I think we've told you that.  We need 104.7.  It's as simple as that.

4519             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

4520             MR. CRAIG:  Thank you.

4521             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That adjourns our ‑‑ Madam Secretary.

4522             THE SECRETARY:  I just want to confirm that this completes Phase One of Items 2 to 7 on the agenda.  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

4523             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  So we'll resume with Phase 2 at nine‑thirty in the morning.  Nous reprendrons demain matin à 9 h 30.

‑‑‑ Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1848, to resume

    on Wednesday, June 8, 2005 at 0930 / L'audience est

    ajournée à 1848, pour reprendre le mercredi 8 juin

    2005 à 0930