ARCHIVÉ -  Transcription

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

      THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES AVANT

  CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

   ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

SUBJECT:

 

 

 

VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:             TENUE À:

 

Fairmont Hotel Vancouver             Fairmont Hotel Vancouver

900 West Georgia Street             900, rue Georgia O.

Vancouver, British Columbia             Vancouver (C.-B.)

 

 

March 4, 2005          Le 4 mars 2005

 

 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Canadian Radio‑television and

Telecommunications Commission

 

  Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

Transcript / Transcription

 

 

        

  VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

        

 

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Charles Dalfen          Chairperson / Président

Andrée Wylie          Commissioner / Conseillère

Ronald Williams          Commissioner / Conseillier

Joan Pennefather          Commissioner / Conseillère

Stuart Langford          Commissioner / Conseillier

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Pierre Lebel     Secretary / Secrétaire

 

Alistair Stewart          Legal Counsel /

Conseillers juridiques

 

Joe Aguiar          Hearing Manager /

Gérant de l'audience

 

 

 

HELD AT:          TENUE À:

 

Fairmont Hotel Vancouver          Fairmont Hotel Vancouver

900 West Georgia Street          900, rue Georgia O.

Vancouver, British Columbia          Vancouver (C.-B.)

 

 

March 4, 2005          Le 4 mars 2005

 

TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

   PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE I (Cont.)

 

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

NL Broadcasting Ltd.   1310 / 8122

 

 

PHASE II

 

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:

 

Standard Radio Inc. 1381 / 8440

 

 

PHASE III

 

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:

 

Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Limited Partnership 1383 / 8467

 

Active Mountain Entertainment 1418 / 8656

 

National Campus Community Radio Association 1423 / 8690

Brant Zwicker

 

Maureen Simpson   1447 / 8816

Grant Porter

 

George Evans 1460 / 8875

Nancy Greene Raine

Leslie Brochu

 

Sarah Nelems   1487 / 8985

Nina Durante

Joanne Gurney

Jolene Landygo

Ron Irving

 

 

PHASE IV

 

REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:

 

NL Broadcasting Ltd.   1499 / 9039

 

Evanov Radio Group Incorporated Inc.   1508 / 9072

 

Standard Radio Inc. 1523 / 9143

Vancouver, B.C. / Vancouver (C.‑B.)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Friday, March 4, 2005 at 1000 /

    L'audience débute le vendredi 4 mars 2005 à 1000

8114     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

8115     Good morning, everyone.

8116     Mr. Secretary, would you call the first item?

8117     MR. LeBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

8118     Item 12 on the agenda is an application by NL Broadcasting Ltd. for a licence to operate an English‑language commercial FM radio program undertaking in Kamloops.

8119     The new station will operate on frequency 103.1 megahertz on channel 276 B1, with an effective radiated power of 5,000 watts.

8120     Appearing for the applicant, Mr. Robbie Dunn.  I will ask him to introduce his colleagues.

8121     You have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

8122     MR. DUNN:  Thank you, Mr. Secretary, and good morning, Mr. Chair, good morning, Madam Vice‑Chair, members of the Commission and the Commission staff.

8123     My name is Robbie Dunn.  I am the majority shareholder, as well as the President and General Manager of NL Broadcasting, and we are pleased to appear before you today to present our application for a country FM station to serve our community of Kamloops.

8124     Before we start our presentation in brief, I will introduce the panel that you see before you.

8125     To my immediate right is Jim Swetlikoe.  With over 28 years of experience in British Columbia, Jim is the Operations Manager of CHNL‑AM, which we often refer to as Radio NL, and CKRV‑FM, which we call "The River" in Kamloops.  Jim is also a shareholder/director in the stations.

8126     Jim will hire the program director that will be responsible for the day‑to‑day programming and the other operations of Country 103 FM.

8127     To Jim's right is our other Jim, Jim Harrison, the news director of our Kamloops stations since 1974 and also a shareholder‑director.  Jim and our news department are recognized throughout our industry for their professionalism in journalism, including multiple awards from the BCAB and the Jack Webster Award for the best reporting in the province.  Jim will speak to our plans for news and other community features in our programming.

8128     To my left is Elizabeth Laird, who is NL's partner in Merritt Broadcasting Ltd. and also the general manager of the Merritt station CJNL for the past ten years.  Elizabeth is one of the few women with a majority ownership position in the radio industry in our country, and we're very proud of that.

8129     Elizabeth will discuss our approach to community involvement and the need for a strong partner in Kamloops.

8130     In the second row, starting from my left, is Ravinder Dhaliwal, who has been the controller of our company for the past seven years.  Ravinder is active in the local South Asian community; also a member of Rotary.  He will answer any questions about our financial operations.

8131     Next to Ravinder is Peter Angle, who is our general sales manager of NL Broadcasting and has been with us for 11 years.  Peter was responsible for developing our revenue projections and will also hire the sales manager for our proposed station.

8132     Next to Peter is Joanna Linsangan, who is our promotion and marketing director.  Joanna is a proud graduate of the B.C.I.T. broadcast program, has been active in our industry for a few years, and will be responsible for developing the public face and personality of our country FM.

8133     To Joanna's right is Calla Dunn, our head of community relations since 1995, after joining us from a similar position with the head office of the B.C. Lottery Corporation in Kamloops.  She will be responsible for the implementation of our Canadian talent development initiatives.

8134     Next to Calla, we are particularly pleased to have with us a life‑long Kamloops resident and rancher, Mike Puhallo.  He's also one of Canada's best‑known cowboy poets.  He's served seven years as the President of the B.C. Cowboy Heritage Society, and is the principal organizer of the Kamloops Cowboy Festival.  He's published five books, recorded three CDs, and been awarded the Queen's Golden Jubilee Medal and the Will Rogers' Gold Medallion for his efforts in keeping western heritage alive.  He will be pleased to answer any questions you may have on the need for a radio station, such as the one we have proposed, that reflects our heritage in the Kamloops area.

8135     He'd also be happy to share a little poetry, if you wish, if you haven't enjoyed some of his cowboy poetry.

8136     Finally, Dave Coulter, our chief engineer and information technology expert.  Dave was with NL in the early 1980s, under contract with S.W. Davis Technical Service, until he was transferred to take care of their clients in Alberta.  He realized the winters were a little warmer in Kamloops, and fortunately for us, he returned in 1993.  Dave is at the back of the room helping us with some of the PowerPoint presentation that you will see on the screens in front of you.  He was responsible for overseeing the submission of our technical brief.

8137     Mr. Chair and Commissioners, this is our panel ‑‑ all talented people with over 150 years of broadcasting experience between us and all deeply involved in the community life of our town, Kamloops.

8138     Now, with your permission, we would be pleased to commence our presentation.

8139     In our presentation, we will tell you about our hometown, its radio environment, the need for what we have termed "pure country music," and how it will impact the market, as well as our proposals for news, community programs, and Canadian talent development.  Also, you will hear about NL Broadcasting and our commitment to the community we serve.

8140     Kamloops is the largest city in British Columbia in area.  The surrounding region is ideal for ranching.  We have a rich history of western lifestyle and the music that accompanies it, country and western.  On the screen, you will see pictures of that lifestyle, reflected by many annual events like colourful First Nations traditional ceremonies, rodeos, a cattle drive that attracts participants from around the world, and a very popular Kamloops Cowboy Festival.

8141     For over 40 years, Kamloops had a country music station to reflect the music that underpins our western lifestyle.  In 2001, that station flipped from AM to FM and changed format from pure country to a mix of country and rock.  Then in August of 2003, the country music element completely disappeared.  It was replaced with a variety hits format, with similarities in sound to our FM station, CKRV, and also to our AM station, CHNL.

8142     This competitive and strategic move targeted our key audience segments, and the action significantly diminished as well the diversity of listening options in our city.  Local reaction was intense, as country music fans felt abandoned.  We received hundreds of requests to provide a country service.  Fans told us they went to other sources for their favourite music:  radio available on cable, internet, and satellite.

8143     As indicated on the chart that you'll see in front of you, the Fall '03 BBM, which followed the loss of country music on local radio, confirmed the anecdotal information.  There were 1,813,000 hours of tuning in Fall '02, when a local country music station was heard in Kamloops; but after the station's format was discontinued, the next survey, in the Fall of '03, reported a drop to 1,420,000 hours ‑‑ a full 20 percent below the previous fall survey, and the hours have remained down at that level in the recently released Fall '04 result.

8144     As well, three out‑of‑market country stations, only available on cable and internet, that had not appeared in any previous BBM report, suddenly were showing tuning.

8145     To illustrate the point, I happened to be in Calgary last year on my way to the CCM, a convention, and heard the following interview on country station CKRY‑FM ...

‑‑‑ Audio presentation / Présentation audio

8146     That call from Kamloops really drove home to me the need for this country service in our hometown.

8147     Now to provide you with information on how we'll go about programming the station to bring those listeners back, here's our program director, Jim Swetlikoe.

8148     MR. SWETLIKOE:  Thank you, Robbie.  Good morning, Commissioners and Commission staff.

8149     Much of the tuning for a country station will come from outside sources, and the duplication of the music on existing stations, we believe, will be minimal.  No more than 4 percent of the songs heard on our station will be played by any other local station.  In fact, we feel that the biggest impact will be on CHNL, our station, because it appeals to approximately the same age group, and many country fans that report they tune to NL for news go elsewhere for their country music.

8150     Independent research that we commissioned from the Solutions Research Group verified that enough Kamloops listeners want this music to make this station viable, and this was subsequently reported by research submitted by both Standard and by Newcap.  Clearly, there is a large demand for country music.

8151     We also personally visited with thousands of Kamloops citizens to develop our proposal.  Their input, and our knowledge of the market, will mean that our station will sound significantly different from what the other two applicants propose.

8152     We envision a broader format, that incorporates the latest songs but will also reflect the western and traditional country music roots in our community.

8153     Our station will be known as Country 103 FM, and the logo is on the screen.  The station will deliver a Kamloops brand of radio by broadcasting special features like Spirit of the West, a weekly program on the western lifestyle, produced in Kamloops by local rancher Hugh McLellan.  This show is unique to our application.  It rates very highly with people we interviewed.

8154     Country 103 will air country classics during each broadcast day and in block programming on the weekends, a country gospel show on Sundays as well as relevant spoken word features like Country Spotlight that will focus on a different country performer each day, with music and biographical information.

8155     After the application was made public, representatives of the Shuswap Nation Tribal Council, an association of Indian bands in our area, contacted us, since our proposed format has historical relevance to their people.  They wish to develop an association with a local company.  Now, we look forward to working with Chief Nathan Matthew, who chairs the tribal council, and Chief Shane Gottfriedson of the Kamloops Indian band on plans to reflect First Nations culture in Country 103's programming.

8156     To meet the interests of Kamloops country listeners, Country 103 will play 40 percent Canadian content.  We've also received support from the British Columbia Country Music Association and the Kamloops country nightclub known as Cactus Jack's, ensuring that interviews, airplay, and promotion for local and regional artists, like Jolene Landygo, Kirsten Daniel, Lee Dinwoodie, Lisa Brokop, First Nations' performer Priscilla Worin, and also rising western star Matt Johnson.

8157     Country 103 FM will also produce our own weekly program, playing the charted top 20 country songs by Canadian artists, biographical information and interviews.

8158     In keeping with our commitment to being live and local, Country 103 FM will be local from its Kamloops studios at least 116 hours each week.

8159     Country 103 will have a separate program director, separate announcers, separate newspeople, and separate salespeople.  It will function as its own entity, delivering on the promise to be Kamloops brand of radio.

8160     Now, to elaborate on our range of local news and other spoken word features, here's Jim Harrison.

8161     MR. HARRISON:  Thank you very much, and good morning to the Commission.

8162     At NL Broadcasting, we're very proud of the job we do reporting on the events in our community.  In a city with access to at least nine news voices, we were gratified when the Solutions Research Group study showed that CHNL's news service is the authoritative one that Kamloops residents turn to in times of trouble.

8163     Fifty‑five percent of 18 to 64‑year‑olds indicated they listened most to CHNL for updates on the 2003 wildfires; three times more than the next highest station.

8164     As Robbie mentioned in the introduction, we're also very proud to have received the Jack Webster Award in 2003 for best radio reporting in B.C.

8165     Ninety‑three percent of the core audience to country indicated that hearing news on their favourite radio station was important to them.  Country 103 will meet their needs with a strong, well‑resourced local news package.

8166     We propose strong spoken word programming:  News, information, features, and announcer talk in excess of 20 hours weekly.

8167     Two full‑time journalist/announcers will be added to our current newsroom of six full‑time people.  One of the new hires will be a dedicated voice to Country 103, acting as its news editor, responsible for searching out stories of particular interest to the country audience, as well as preparing and hosting Country 103 FM morning newscasts.

8168     The same person will also prepare a daily special feature on items specifically important to the country audience.  For instance, the impact of the ongoing BSE crisis and First Nations issues, such as land claims.

8169     The other person will handle the afternoon drive newscasts for Country 103.

8170     Now, as well, the NL newsroom will now be staffed 20 hours a day, seven days a week, unique in Kamloops media.

8171     We're more than excited by this possibility to enhance our already strong news team and provide even more extensive coverage to Kamloops listeners.

8172     Now, to speak about our relationship with the community of Merritt and the association of CJNL radio to Country 103 FM, I'm pleased to acknowledge Elizabeth Laird.

8173     MS. LAIRD:  Thank you, Jim.

8174     Good morning, Commissioners.

8175     The last few years has seen the loss or reduction of local service in smaller communities in British Columbia, with one notable exception.  Merritt Broadcasting, the licensee of CJNL‑AM, supported by our partner NL Broadcasting, actually has been able to expand our local services.

8176     Merritt is a community of only 7,000 people 80 kilometres south of Kamloops.  My partners at NL in Kamloops have continually encouraged us to expand our local programming.  Our biggest leap to date was made in 2003 when we added 22 hours.  We are now a total of 69 hours a week local.

8177     In addition, we also broadcast all the games of our junior hockey team and do other programming from special events like our Christmas tree lightup and our Canada Day celebrations.

8178     This commitment to being live and local is the foundation of NL's operating philosophy.  In order for the CJNL listeners to continue enjoying our local service, we require a strong partner in Kamloops, and the addition of Country 103 FM will ensure that.

8179     We will cooperate with the new station by having our newspeople provide items of interest to them and even more coverage of the Merritt Mountain Music Festival.

8180     As well, our city has many other country‑related events, since we are known as the country music capital of Canada.

8181     This will deliver the Merritt perspective and activities to a larger audience, reinforcing the bond between the two cities, and promoting travel to our smaller community.

8182     I will now ask Peter Angle to talk about the need for Country 103 FM from the advertiser's perspective.

8183     MR. ANGLE:  Thank you, Elizabeth, and good morning.

8184     NL Broadcasting has been asked by many advertisers to pick up the country format and provide an efficient local advertising vehicle to reach fans of that genre.  In the words of one car dealer, "I need a place to sell my trucks."

8185     To measure the depth of advertiser support for this format, the Mustel Research Group surveyed Kamloops advertisers.  It concludes that advertising budgets would be enhanced rather than move from existing stations to any large degree.  Our revenue forecasts for Country 103 were developed using the Mustel information, the forecast done by Pattison Broadcast Group that accompanied their application to flip to FM in 2001, and our lengthy experience in the market.  We believe our forecast to be the most accurate and realistic of all applicants.

8186     Now, selling advertising in our two existing stations is a unique challenge for us.  We face a formal competitor each day in the Pattison company that has five revenue streams compared to our two.  Their sales force offers packaging for advertisers that combines two FM stations, the local TV station, and inserts in two Vancouver television stations.  They also share the same ownership with the largest outdoor advertising company in the market, Pattison Signs.  There are multiple cross‑media promotional and advertising opportunities available to them that are not available to us.

8187     Despite the advantages available to Pattison, the presence we have in Kamloops and our fair pricing approach to advertising rates has meant we have attained reasonable success.  But looking to the future, approval of our application also addresses the competitive imbalance.

8188     Now, to speak on the ability of the market to sustain a fifth commercial radio station, here is Ravinder Dhaliwal.

8189     MR. DHALIWAL:  Good morning, Mr. Chair and Commissioners.

8190     We commissioned an independent economic assessment from Benchmark Research.  Their report demonstrates ongoing gradual economic growth for the market and that another station is viable.

8191     Let me highlight a few items from that report and also recently released information from the city as they appear on the screen in front of you.

8192     Since 1983, when the last licence was issued, the population of the City of Kamloops has grown by 22,000, or one third.  It is expected to continue growing at a rate of 1 percent, reaching a population of nearly 90,000 by the 2010 Winter Olympics.

8193     Licensing a fifth commercial station now means that there will be approximately 16,400 persons per station in the market, 1,400 more people than there was for four stations in 1983.

8194     In January, the city reported its highest number of valid business licences yet, numbering over 4,600, an increase of 40 percent since the early '90s.  This is projected to be over 5,000 in the next few years.

8195     This growth will ensure an expanded retail trade from which radio drives 80 percent of its broadcast revenues.

8196     F.P. Market reports retail sales in Kamloops were $1.28 billion in 2003 and are projected to reach nearly $1.37 billion this year, an increase of 6 percent in only two years.  And they will keep growing, with advertising revenues naturally following.

8197     Retail sales per household are 37 percent above the national average, accounted for by the large regional population of 130,000 people that utilize Kamloops for their main shopping.

8198     And the best is yet to come.  Our local college is being designated full university status this April, immediately creating 150 new jobs.  The student enrolment will double over the next ten years to approximately 16,000, increasing the institution's impact on the City of Kamloops from $182 million to $340 million.

8199     NL's business plan is realistic.  Taking into account the synergies and the local credibility available to us, we are confident of the viability of Country 103.

8200     Now Calla Dunn will talk about how we will contribute to the development of local talent in our area.

8201     MS. DUNN:  Prior to developing our package of CTD initiatives, we held discussions with several local performers to ensure that we would reflect their needs.  Subsequent to our initial filing, further input from the community led us to additional initiatives.  They all will directly benefit local talent in six separate plans.

8202     We will spend $178,500 over the course of the licence term, an amount which is appropriate for Kamloops.

8203     Solid lyrics are the basis of hit songs.  In collaboration with the university, we will provide local songwriters free professional coaching in our songwriting and voice coaching seminar, headed by Canada's original teen sensation and recording star Terry Black, who resides in Kamloops.

8204     Starquest for Mountainfest is a new talent contest which will provide a cash prize and an appearance for the winning local talent at the Merritt Mountain Music Festival.  This event features international and national country music stars and attracts over 120,000 people.

8205     We'll hire local performers to provide concerts during the city's Music in the Park series each summer.

8206     An Emerging Artist contest winner will be selected at the Kamloops Cowboy Festival, the most successful of its kind in Canada.  This will fund a recording and pressing of a first CD for a western performer, a category mostly overlooked by our radio industry.

8207     Country in the City is a free annual concert celebration for fans.  It will bring regional country western and First Nations performers together at a local venue, providing them with exposure, a fee for performing, and an opportunity to sell their CDs.

8208     Lastly, we will contribute to the Canadian Country Music Association, with a request that funds be directed to artists in our area.

8209     Our discussions with artists, promoters, and fans have made us genuinely excited about developing and bringing more Canadian local and regional country and western music to our city, Kamloops.

8210     And now to sum up, Robbie Dunn.

8211     MR. DUNN:  NL Broadcasting is a Kamloops broadcaster.  We believe strongly in radio, and we believe strongly in our town of Kamloops.  We're proud to live and work here.  We want to help our community grow and prosper, and we focus on providing excellent service to the citizens of our area.

8212     The research conducted by the Solutions Research Group, the awards and recognitions our stations have received, including the 2003 Corporate Citizen of the Year, and over 1,100 letters of support that have been sent to the Commission from a broad spectrum of the Kamloops community, including all elected officials and the nearby First Nations, attest to the acceptance we enjoy and also the responsibility that we have.

8213     The people of Kamloops need and want a country music station, one that plays a wide variety of country and western music, one that reflects our heritage and our lifestyle, one operated by a company with a track record of service to our community, one that is owned and accountable locally.  It's evident through the letters of support that people residing in Kamloops and area trust us at NL to meet this goal.

8214     The economy of our area has shown steady growth, and that will continue.  NL's realistic business plan and credibility with local advertisers means we will be able to convert the initial interest more dependably into ongoing revenue than any new entrant.  And with support from our AM and FM stations in the city, we can ensure that Country 103's format is never again relinquished.

8215     The Jim Pattison Broadcast Group will not face unduly detrimental competition from us.  At present, their multiple media holdings along with experienced local managers, extensive community involvement, and other powerful resources available from their corporation ensure that.  In fact, we could well make the case that licensing NL Broadcasting with this new station will tilt the field a little bit less against us.

8216     Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, we need your assistance to face the intense and developing competition for listening time that new technology is bringing upon radio in the form of i‑Pods, the internet, and satellite radio.  We have a strong desire to be part of our community for many years to come, and ratifying our proposed service provides the diversity that will return listeners to Kamloops radio.

8217     By granting a licence to NL Broadcasting, you'll meet your goal of maintaining radio industry ownership diversity in our province and our country.

8218     We thank you very much for your attention today, and we would be pleased to try and answer any questions that you may wish to ask.

8219     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Dunn, ladies and gentlemen.  We appreciated your presentation.

8220     I have a few questions arising from your application and the presentation today.  To begin with, a little math.  In your application, and I refer you to your supplementary brief, pages 23 and following, particularly page 24, where you indicate that your spoken word commitment will total 9 hours 40 minutes a week, including the news, which you detail on the previous page.  Today you mentioned a number of 20 percent, and as I do the math, that doesn't amount to 20 percent of the week.  So I'm wondering, you said, "news, information, features, and announcer talk in excess of 20 hours weekly" ‑‑ I'm sorry, you said 20 hours weekly.  So I'm trying to reconcile the 9 hours 40 with the 20.

8221     MR. DUNN:  Jim Swetlikoe, our operations manager, would be pleased to answer that question for you, Mr. Chairman.

8222     MR. SWETLIKOE:  I can provide for the Commission a breakdown of the entire spoken word commitment, but I will attempt to explain it here.  It gets a little confusing.

8223     THE CHAIRPERSON:  That might be useful.  You chose not to submit a schedule, so we don't have that.

8224     MR. SWETLIKOE:  I'm more than happy to do so.

8225     THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you could do that and perhaps the ‑‑ go ahead.  If you can just address the question, that would be helpful.

8226     MR. SWETLIKOE:  Sure.  556 minutes of our broadcast week in spoken word will be in news, weather, and sports.  The remaining amount that takes us to 9 hours 40 minutes will be in the area of road reports, community PSAs, stock market reports, the entertainment file feature, the feature "Star Watch," country music news, country spotlight, and a B.C. livestock marketing report, which is done each Friday morning.  That would bring the total to 9 hours 49 minutes.

8227     The additional talk is an announcer show prep, which totals 10 hours and 35 minutes, bringing the total spoken word commitment to 20 hours and 24 minutes a week.

8228     The total local spoken word would be 19 hours and 22 minutes, the subtraction coming from the announcer show prep involved in American Country Countdown, a syndicated feature, which would run 8 hours a week to total approximately 32 minutes, and 30 minutes per week for Spirit of the West, which is also a Canadian syndicated program that we're going to be airing on the station.  So it would bring down the local spoken word commitment to 19 hours and 22 minutes; the total spoken word commitment to 20 hours and 24 minutes.

8229     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  If you could submit that breakdown, that would be helpful.

8230     MR. SWETLIKOE:  Happy to do so.

8231     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, your primary demographic is 25 to 54, Mr. Dunn; is that correct?

8232     MR. DUNN:  I suppose that's the primary demographic as far as most advertisers would look at.  In terms of consumer analysis study that's been done, country format is really referred to as an 18 to 88‑year‑old format, and I know Jim has some information here on the typical profile of a country music listener, if you're interested in hearing that.  That might help delineate the exact listenership prospect a little bit better.

8233     MR. SWETLIKOE:  The information I'm about to give you is taken from a Canadian consumer analysis study done by Albright & O'Malley, and profiles the Canadian country music listener.  This survey was done in 2004 ‑‑ the study was done in 2004.

8234     The audience composition of men 18‑plus is slightly in excess of 46 percent, women 18‑plus slightly in excess of 53 percent.  25 to 54 age demo makes up about 56 percent of its cumulative.  The strongest demo is in 35‑plus.  18 percent of its tuning hours are done at work.  72 percent, unfortunately, are on the internet every day.  We want to have them spend a little more time with radio.  Men like older and upbeat songs, women like the newer ballads.  In their opinion, it's important that their country music station does reflect good Canadian values.

8235     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  I'll get to the musical format ‑‑ that's helpful ‑‑ in a moment.  But in terms of the spoken word now, 20‑some hours, given what you've just outlined, how do you see the spoken word component of your programming, as distinct from the music, addressing the various components of the demographic?

8236     MR. SWETLIKOE:  Perhaps if I first start with the area of news and information, our surveys have told us that it's important that news and information be a part of our radio station.  However, it's also in the survey material that our news and information spoken word content be in very specific areas of its programming.  We believe we've reflected that very well.

8237     The remainder of our spoken word content in terms of surveillance material, such as road report information, community PSAs and interviews, we feel are just an obligation that a local broadcaster has to its community.  So that's pretty straightforward.

8238     Our entertainment features, or the features that we have surrounding this, are all locally produced; in other words, the country spotlight, country music news and spoken word reflects very much not just the music but the lifestyle.  The two are tied together in our community, very closely.  The B.C. livestock marketing report is pretty obvious.

8239     Now, the announcer show prep portion of our spoken word commitment to some degree lies not just in its relevance in terms of the market but also in its delivery.  Maybe I can make a comparison to our sister station CKRV‑FM?

8240     CKRV is a hot AC/CHR radio station.  It goes very quickly.  Its spoken word commitment is in the neighbourhood of 14 hours a week, but its delivery is very quick.  It's a station that sometimes we say internally moves faster than the listeners' ears can go.

8241     Our vision of Country 103 is more in CHNL's style:  It's conversational, it's across‑the‑table, it must relate to their lifestyle every day.  The people we hire for Country 103, to provide spoken word, will live this lifestyle.  They'll know country music.  We'll be looking for people very specifically knowledgeable about it.

8242     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So I guess from what you're saying, is it fair to conclude, that the core or the thrust of your spoken word will appeal to the 25 to 54 demographic rather than the 19‑year‑old or the 87‑year‑old?

8243     MR. DUNN:  Typically I would think the strength is going to be in the 35‑plus demographic; 25‑54, I don't know what we're going to get based on the previous country music station that was in the market.  I think you would take a look at that and say that their strength was 35‑plus, and I would anticipate that we would experience the same result.

8244     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thirty‑five plus, meaning plus until 54 or ...

8245     MR. DUNN:  Well, I'm getting older, so I hope it's plus for an awful long time.

8246     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I guess I'm going by your market research, which seemed to focus on the 25 to 54 ‑‑

8247     MR. DUNN:  Yes.  Actually, our Solutions Research Group study focussed on 18 to 64.  We tried to refine that down a little bit to be more in the broader acceptance levels of what national advertisers are looking for.

8248     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm not sure how much further we can take this, but I guess it's ‑‑ in terms of trying to assess the diversity of the market, perhaps you could do it from that point of view?  Where do you see your spoken word programming fitting in to the market, as it now exists in Kamloops, in attracting an audience that isn't currently listening to Calgary or to other stations?

8249     MR. DUNN:  Well, primarily ‑‑ you saw the drop in 20 percent hours of tuning when the country music station was taken out of the market, so primarily it's music‑oriented.

8250     I'll ask both Jims to talk on that, because there is a news element to that as well that would be spoken word content; and also in the programming sense where we would be doing interviews with Canadian artists that are Canadian country artists that receive no exposure in our market now.

8251     Jim, would you like to talk perhaps on the news angle, first off our ideas for covering items that would not receive coverage on existing stations but would be on Country 103?

8252     MR. HARRISON:  Well, as has been indicated, it's our intention to give the Country 103 newsroom its own distinct sound, which is the reason we intend to provide the station with its own dedicated newspeople.  Newspeople will be instructed to consider the interests of the country audience.  As an example, I'll use the federal budget when it was delivered.  NL news would have provided a more fullsome coverage of the budget, all of the details, all of the reaction and so forth.  On The River itself, which has a younger audience, we might focus the budget coverage more on the tax cuts for individuals and on the child care features of it.  For the Country 103 audience, we can see opening that particular coverage by suggesting that agriculture was a word not to be found in the budget or found infrequently in the budget, and here's what it means to you.

8253     Apart from that, we will focus more heavily on the ranching community in our area, market conditions, as we've mentioned earlier, the ongoing BSE crisis, and get the local reflection on what that means to the individual rancher, hear from them, hear directly from them, in more detail than we're now providing.  Market conditions, as I mentioned, climate‑related items, as it will impact them; transportation issues; land claims and First Nations; that sort of thing.

8254     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  While you have the microphone, I notice that you highlighted the introduction of a live local evening newscast in your application as a feature.  From the point of view of a station such as yours, that isn't an unusual feature, or are you saying that it is in the Kamloops market?

8255     MR. HARRISON:  It is in the Kamloops market, and I believe it's fairly unique to radio in this country, to have live local news throughout the evening.  This configuration, the synergies of three stations, would allow us the resources then to reach that objective.

8256     MR. SWETLIKOE:  Just as a point of clarification, just to make sure we're clear, we currently offer news on the hour, every hour, 24 hours a day on CHNL.  The evening newscasts originate with the Corus Radio Network in Vancouver; very much a good regional newscast, no question about it, and which we contribute to on Corus.  Our goal here is to provide complete local newscasts on CHNL.

8257     THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's the difference.  Not the element of live on‑the‑hour news but locally based news.  And I guess it takes into account those three stations, so you'll consider it local in each of those markets; is that the idea?

8258     MR. SWETLIKOE:  Right.

8259     THE CHAIRPERSON:  None of the markets currently have that now, with the addition of this station, to be able to marshal your resources and provide a newscast that will address all three?

8260     MR. HARRISON:  That's right.

8261     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Moving to the musical format ‑‑ again, without a schedule, and not being an expert in this particular format, you describe both newer and older country music selections in a broad spectrum.  Do you have some sense of the balance between the two, and can you, in words somehow ‑‑ maybe music would be the best way of doing it ‑‑ in words describe the fundamental difference between those two categories?

8262     MR. DUNN:  I'll ask Jim to respond to that.  But just to set up a bit of an overview for you, certainly the sound that we're proposing is much more varied, and Mike Puhallo may also want to come in on that and talk about the popularity of the western genre in our area.  It's unique to Kamloops, pretty much.  There are certain pockets of population in Kamloops that do have a very strong western following, and we wish to provide that service.

8263     First off, I'll turn it over to Jim here to talk about how we see the music coming together with comparative playlists.

8264     MR. SWETLIKOE:  Country 103 would focus more on gold music, particularly from the '70s and '80s.  We would play approximately 50 percent from the new and recurrent categories, and 50 percent would come from those gold categories.  Within that includes the incorporation of western music, to some degree some western swing as well.  We believe that our listeners do feel it's important because it does reflect our lifestyle very well, and I will ask Mike to comment on that.

8265     I also have prepared a couple of sample flow charts and again can provide it to the Commission, should you desire.

8266     THE CHAIRPERSON:  That would be helpful.

8267     MR. PUHALLO:  I guess it's my turn.

8268     First off, I do want to say that western music is far from dead in Canada or the United States.  Western music and western strut swing are possibly the fastest growing genre of country music in North America today, and the popularity of events, such as the big cowboy gathering at Elko, Nevada and our own Kamloops Cowboy Festival certainly have illustrated that.  We've been on an incredible growth curve over the last nine years with the Kamloops Cowboy Festival.  We started with a half a dozen musicians and poets in a bull sale ring on a Thursday night with a hundred people in the grandstand.  Last year we attracted 4500 people to the Kamloops Cowboy Festival.

8269     The popularity of western music is just taking off in an incredible fashion.  Even mainstream artists in the U.S. who have been very successful, like Garth Brooks, have made a point of including at least one western or cowboy song on every album they've put out.  Ian Tyson continues to be a world leader in the field of western music.  If you even look back to the stuff Ian was recording when it was Ian and Sylvia, he was writing and recording western music.  It is basically the folk music of the rural West, as different from mainstream country as the East Coast Celtic music is, and it does cover a fairly wide range, everything from western swing, with its jazz influences, to the Hollywood type harmonies, to the traditional cowboy ballads and, of course, now cowboy poetry has really come to the fore as well.

8270     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Now, you use the terms "western" and "cowboy."  Is that to be synonymous with the newer form of country music?  Is it a sub‑category?  You know, we think in ‑‑

8271     MR. PUHALLO:  Somewhere, about 40 years ago, one deejay back East said "country" and "western" music in the same sentence, and since then, they've been married.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

8272     MR. PUHALLO:  Unfortunately, recently, again, those same Eastern influences have said country music ‑‑ or western music is dead, or similar to country.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Try and tell that story south of the Red River in Texas, and you'll get lynched.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

8273     MR. PHUALLO:  The appetite for western music in the Foothills of Alberta, in the cattle country of British Columbia, is strong and growing.  But it's a continuation of those same traditions that reach all the way back to Robbie Martins and the great western singers of the past.  Bob Wills' western swing is still kept alive together.  I did a show last year with his niece, Dana Wills, who is still doing western swing.  You know, there is no abatement.  It is a growing genre.

8274     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I thank you for that.  I'm not trying to pin you down to absolute numbers, but just to give us a sense ‑‑ and I guess back to you, Mr. Dunn ‑‑ of the balance between western music and, I guess, country, can you give us a sense?  Again, we don't have a program schedule, so it's hard to get a feeling for it.  Do you have a sense of the balance and proportions of your musical selections between what you've just heard, cowboy and western and other country ‑‑

8275     MR. DUNN:  Jim is the highly detailed person here.  I can give you a bit of an overview.

8276     Shows like Spirit of the West.  Hugh McLennan is an old friend of mine.  We worked in country music radio 30 years ago in Calgary, and he now resides in Kamloops and has an outstanding show that features the newer western‑type songs.  We'd be absolutely delighted ‑‑ we have an association with Hugh ‑‑ that we're absolutely looking so much forward to having that show on the air.  It will air twice each week.

8277     Another interesting thing that I want to share with the Commission that came out in the letters of support that came in, the number of letters of support that came and mentioned how happy they were that we were going to be carrying Spirit of the West is a real credit to Hugh and the quality of that program.

8278     Now, beyond that, our regular daily programming is also going to have that.  Jim has prepared some sample charts, and I don't know if we calculated the exact percentage breakouts there, Jim, but he can give you an example.

8279     THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, and I'm not trying to pin you to that.

8280     Perhaps, Jim, what you could do is give me a sense, because again I don't have a schedule, of whether you're thinking of a rotation of all this type of music throughout your schedule or whether you're thinking of blocks of the different categories?  Can you help me with that?

8281     MR. SWETLIKOE:  Yeah, I think I understand what you're looking for.

8282     I think the way to answer it is that we would highlight that music.  In other words, we know, as programmers, that throwing in a western song that doesn't jibe with something that's happening in today's country music might sound harsh.  We understand that.  Any less than playing on a hot AC station, suddenly playing an '80s tune.  You know, if you don't let people know it's something special, it can pop at you and kind of sound out of place.  We want to make sure that happens.

8283     So as we broadcast throughout the day, it certainly wouldn't be unusual to do it at least once an hour, plus Spirit of the West, which does it for a total of two hours each week.

8284     You know, we understand the importance of western music in our community.  If we look at what Ian Tyson is doing right now ‑‑ he has a top‑selling LP in Canada in western music.  Again, we know it's not dead, and we're certainly not a station, a country station, that wants to ignore it.  We want to envelope it as part of our programming.  But, again, by featuring it ‑‑ I hate to use that word as though it's such a stand‑out ‑‑ but by introducing it correctly and placing it correctly in the hour, we believe it'll be there quite a bit.

8285     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have that information.

8286     MR. DUNN:  Mr. Chairman?

8287     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Go ahead.

8288     MR. DUNN:  One of the stations that I enjoy listening to when I'm in the Seattle area is KMPS.  It's a country music station.  It's actually the number one overall rated 12‑plus share station in Seattle.  A very, obviously, urban market.

8289     They have a very interesting way of taking care of that kind of music, even in Seattle.  As Jim was saying, they billboard it.  They're saying:  "KMPS, we're proud to play the history of country."

8290     While we may not creatively swipe that in the same way, that's the idea that we have for our programming.

8291     MR. SWETLIKOE:  Oh, no, we might swipe it exactly that way.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

8292     MR. SWETLIKOE:  I'm not open to swiping the idea, but ...

8293     The thing I'd also like to add is, the addition of that music also, I believe, reflects some artists that right now are only being heard on a show like Spirit of the West, and I've had many conversations with Hugh McLennan on this over the years.  People like Butch Falk ‑‑ Butch Falk is a performer out of McClure.  Have you ever heard of Butch Falk?

8294     I think that, you know, Matt Johnson, who has received a Rising Star Award in western music, lives in Clearwater, which is only 90 miles to the north and serviced by CHNL.

8295     You know, this is music that's not getting an opportunity to be heard.  We also believe in that regional sound of western music, because it's part of our heritage.

8296     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  Do you have a way ‑‑ I know you alluded to it briefly, but perhaps you could elaborate on it, on how you would distinguish your sound from the proposal that we have from Standard on a country music station?

8297     MR. DUNN:  We can certainly do that, and it is very different.

8298     Jim has sample music charts, which perhaps would be best filed rather than going through the detail here, unless you wanted to do that.

8299     THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, no, we don't need the detail at this point as much as a general overview from your point of view, as best you can describe it.

8300     MR. DUNN:  The general overview is that we would have more programs that would appeal to that particular part of the market.

8301     Jim may have some specific ones that he'd wish to touch on there, but certainly we're going to be playing the new country music songs.  We don't want to tell you that it's going to be all balanced the other way, because there is a demand for that too, and we want to make sure that the new artists get their music heard.  But we also want to properly convey the cultural heritage of our area.

8302     Jim, did you want to add anything to that?

8303     MR. SWETLIKOE:  Well, I do want to say that, you know, based on sample hours and trying to figure out how different the stations will sound is extremely difficult because, you know, to take two hours of a broadcast week and two sample hours out of an application is pretty difficult to do.

8304     What we've reviewed is perhaps the sample in terms of airing a balance or ‑‑ you know, that's really all we can really look at.  And it looks as though, in the opposing application, that we would see more new country music, approximately 60 percent, kind of out of that new era, you know, the last couple of years or year or two.  We would have less than that.  We would be more in the 50 percent range.  I believe our music sample will go back farther into the '70s on occasion, as well.  We wouldn't ignore the '70s.  And certainly the '60s and '70s, when it comes to the show Country Classics, we want to go right back and bring that.

8305     I caution that to try and compare the two based on just music samples is pretty difficult to do, at least from my perspective.

8306     THE CHAIRPERSON:  On the format itself, you, of course, have told us that the format was in the market; it was abandoned less than two years ago.  A number of applicants have considered that an opportunity and have decided they want to apply for the format.  You have your market research, which we've read.  But did you do a separate kind of analysis as to why you thought that the previous presenter of that format gave it up and why it will work now when a decision was made, as recently as a year and a half ago, to give it up?

8307     And I appreciate this is beyond the market research, because we have that information, but just your own sense of, you know, a pretty savvy broadcaster getting out of that, and is there a role for it in the market?

8308     MR. DUNN:  I can't speak for the Pattison Group, obviously, for their reasons for changing.  I think John Yerxa spoke eloquently to that yesterday and what his research showed.

8309     In our particular circumstance, we've been looking for a way to grow our company in the last few years.  At the time that we were looking, there were four diverse formats available in the market, including country, and so we didn't test that particular one.

8310     What we did test was new rock and smooth jazz, and what we determined was that there just wasn't significant enough audience there to make the enterprise viable.  And so we kind of went away and let things lie.

8311     However, in August of 2003, when the Pattison Group did decide to abandon the country music format, those fans immediately showed their displeasure, and we then said, country is the obvious hole.  And we've all been living there for an awful long time.  We understand the importance of the cultural heritage in our area, the rich demand for country and western music, and all of a sudden, it's not there.  So our research focussed completely on what is the demand for country music, and what levels of country music?  Do people want it out of the current pop music, do they want it out of the '90s, do they want it out of the '60s?  And out of that, we then prepared our programming plan.

8312     However, we do note that the other applicants, Newcap in particular, that has subsequently dropped out, but the research that they did provide did indicate that ‑‑ they did test other formats, and clearly country was the format that was missing in the marketplace.  So it reaffirmed what our intuition had already told us.

8313     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  In your remarks today ‑‑ I think it was Mr. Swetlikoe ‑‑ you mentioned you would be live and local from the Kamloops studio at least 116 hours per week.  That really means you'll have people on the mics throughout that time period, is it?

8314     MR. SWETLIKOE:  Our local programming, including voice track, everything will be done locally.  Our midday voice tracking ‑‑ we actually, in our station, call program assist.  The person is there.

8315     What we have found that that allows us to do, and very effectively in both of our other stations, is to provide the additional services in a more timely manner.  For example, community interviews and preparation of those.  That's just one example.  There are many others.

8316     In the area of production, people able to do other things ‑‑ while never giving up the fact that it's program assist.  It's not just an automation unit that runs.  When we have a breaking story on CHNL, we go, now.

8317     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  So with program assist, there isn't a live announcer ‑‑

8318     MR. SWETLIKOE:  The announcer is not live on the air, the announcer is there.

8319     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So how many hours would you say there will be somebody actually on the mic announcing the program?

8320     MR. SWETLIKOE:  Monday through Friday from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m.; Saturday from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m.; and Sunday from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m.

8321     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, thank you.

8322     On your CTD, you've set it out again very clearly today.  I'll just summarize it, because I think we're pretty clear on, as of November 2, what your revised position is.  Let me just run through it, and you can tell me whether it's correct.

8323     $400 per year participating in the CAB/CTD plank, contributing to the Canadian Country Music Association CTD fund; is that correct?

8324     MR. DUNN:  Yes.

8325     THE CHAIRPERSON:  $4,000 per year for songwriting, recording, and voice coaching; $6,000 per year the Mountainfest Star Quest; $600 per year Music in the Park; and $6,000 per year Kamloops Cowboy Festival Emerging Artists Contest; and then $8,500 a year free public celebration concert.  Have I got that?  We have your descriptions and so on, and that totals twenty ‑‑ what is it per year? ‑‑ twenty five five per year, for a total of $178,500.

8326     MR. DUNN:  That's correct, sir.

8327     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Because it's clear, I don't have to pursue that, including the description.  So I have that.  Thank you.

8328     Regarding cultural diversity.  As you know, our commercial radio policy encourages broadcasters to reflect the cultural diversity of Canada in their programming and employment practices, especially with regard to news, music, and promotion of Canadian artists.

8329     I note in your application that you've identified that you expect your daily 90‑second background clips will regularly include features on the various cultural groups in Kamloops.  Are there other ways that you're going to be reflecting diversity as well?

8330     MR. DUNN:  Specifically in the news area?

8331     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Or overall, in your programming or employment in the station?

8332     MR. DUNN:  All right.  I'm happy to touch on all of the points for you.

8333     First of all, it comes from a culture that's within our own company.  We read these things in The Globe and Mail called systemic barriers and so on, and to us, they're really just jargon.  We look very much wider for employees to join us in the company.  We've developed an environment, a culture of mutual respect; and at the same time, Ravinder Dhaliwal, who you met earlier, is our controller and human resources person.  Ravinder is the one that's responsible for tracking that and making sure that we have proper diversity within our employees.

8334     In terms of our news coverage, I'm particularly proud of the job that we do with the First Nations people.  Jim Harrison is to be credited with that, in our news end.  We maintain regular contact with the chiefs and councils of the nine bands that are in our area, and their views are expressed on a regular basis on issues of any importance to them.  That is one of the reasons that they have submitted letters of support for us.  They see the kind of contact that we already have with them, the fairness that they receive.

8335     It's interesting as well that Peter Angle and myself have met with Shane Gottfriedson and his assistant Christy Stewart to discuss plans that they have for this year for the Kamloops Indian band.  The Kamloops Indian band lands are located right across the river from the downtown Kamloops area.  As a side note, they're very proud that the economic impact on Kamloops from their lands is approximately $300 million a year.  They're a main economic generator.  They have somewhere in the vicinity ‑‑ Peter, correct me if I'm wrong ‑‑ 250, 300 employees in that band.  A very prosperous band, doing very well.

8336     But one of the things that they still encounter are barriers from the population that's on the south side of the river, and we're working with them to try to break down those barriers.  So that's part of an area that we see Country 103 really being an assist to help encourage people to come on to their lands.

8337     They are now providing encouragement for people to come and use the trails that are on some beautiful property that they have.  In that regard, dealing with First Nations, I just might ask Joanna here, who has been also developing some ideas of what we can do with Country 103 to work with the Indian bands in our area and to help them break down those barriers.

8338     Joanna, would you like to touch base on that a little bit?

8339     MS. LINSANGAN:  Definitely.  Thanks, Robbie.

8340     Promotionally, what we hope to do is work with the First Nations, work with the Shuswap Tribal Council and the nine Indian bands.  Every year there are so many events that get promoted on some level, but on Country 103 we could do so much more for them.

8341     Take, for example, the Kamloops powwow.  You've seen the picture.  It happens every year, this summer will be their 23rd.  Not only that, the Kamloops Indian band, the Skeetchestn band as well, they hold annual health fairs and rodeos.  The Whispering Pines, Kamloops, and Skeetchestn Indian bands, they hold rodeos every year.

8342     What we hope to do is by bringing these events to the forefront, lending our air waves, through promotions, through contesting, we'll be able to garner more community support for these kinds of events.  It's integral, it's part of our community, and I've lived in Kamloops for only two months, and I've seen the impact.  You go down the main street downtown, you see people in cowboy hats.  You don't see that on Robson here, but you see it in Kamloops.  That's what happens.

8343     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

8344     MR. DUNN:  I might just touch on the music element as well.  I believe that's one of the areas of cultural diversity.  Mike Puhallo mentioned that, and some of the western music we did in our initial remarks, Priscilla Warren is one of the artists out of our area, originally from Golden, now lives in Vancouver, that we see working with.  Tom Jackson is a well‑known Prairie Aboriginal artist and creates shows.  They have a show circuit.  We have been talking with Jimmy Thomas, to manage the Mount Paul Centre, which is on the Kamloops Indian band lands, and Jimmy happens to be a friend of Tom Jackson.  We said, "Wouldn't it be great if we could bring in an all‑Aboriginal show that Country 103 could be involved in?"

8345     Mike, did you want to talk any more about some of those particular types of shows?

8346     MR. PUHALLO:  Well, I would like to say that, both from the Indian bands and the western events community around Kamloops, which are really one and the same ‑‑ around Kamloops, we're not afraid to say Indian cowboy, and the fact is that, for most of my life, half of the cowboys I knew were Indians and half the Indians I knew were cowboys.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

8347     MR. PUHALLO:  That hasn't changed.  When you're producing rodeos, western heritage events, like the Cowboy Festival, you need a country music outlet to advertise those events on and coordinate with as a marketing partner, and that's been sadly missing in the local market.

8348     Just speaking from the experience with the Kamloops Cowboy Festival, we have a total of 47 sponsors.  Those sponsors that sponsor our cowboy festival want to be able to advertise on a country music station.  That's not available to them right now.

8349     MR. DUNN:  Do you have any further questions, sir, on diversity?

8350     THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, you've answered my questions.  Thank you, Mr. Dunn.

8351     I want to turn to the ability of the market to sustain a new station, an area that I know you've covered both in your presentation and in today's oral remarks.  You've heard the other applicants being questioned on the fact that the market is sub‑par regarding profit levels and so on.

8352     I would like to be a little specific in asking you the question.  If you could turn to your supplementary brief at page 31.  I assume, since this was filed in '04, that it's a little dated, and you can certainly update it.  But if you look at the top paragraph, you say that, based on retail sales and radio's share of retail sales, that this represented a $6.9 million market.

8353     Now, as you know, the actual market in Kamloops for '04 was $6.291 million and, in fact, declined from the previous year of $6.363 million.  So you're starting with a base there that is lower than what you had projected out, and I wonder how you would react to the impact of the lower dollars in the market in terms of the absorbability of a new station.

8354     MR. DUNN:  As you're well aware, there are two owners in the market, so we don't get to see that information.  So it was our best guess, based on ‑‑

8355     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, this is public, from our financial summaries in the entire market.  So this is not ‑‑ we have the individual ones, but these are the market totals which are in our financials.

8356     MR. DUNN:  I know the question was asked yesterday on PBIT.  Would you like me to perhaps shed some light on that?

8357     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sure.  Kamloops has a different reporting requirement, in that the stations are not over 4 million ‑‑ I think 4 million is the threshold there to provide different reporting requirements.  It's unfortunate the other applicants don't get to see the market reporting.

8358     In our particular case, the PBIT that we report on the annual return would be significantly lower because of monies that we move to an associated company for tax reasons.  If you take a look at our general and administration expense as a percentage of revenue, it's about 25 percent higher than the industry averages.  Therefore, our profit margins are about 25 percent lower.  Based on the numbers that Commissioner Langford shared yesterday, we did a very quick and rough calculation based on our estimate for the market, and if we add back in the monies that we transfer to the associated company, we feel that the market would then come up to about a 17 percent PBIT, not knowing exactly what the Pattison people do in terms of their allocations.

8359     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And on that basis, you're comfortable with the absorbability of the market?

8360     MR. DUNN:  We're excited.  We have filed with you, on a confidential basis, the forecasts that we have for our existing two stations, given the impact of this new entrant into the market.  If we were to be able to provide it, because of the local synergies that we can provide, we are more than comfortable with the ability of the market to sustain a very viable operation here.

8361     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  On page 33, you indicate that there will be a natural growth in radio revenues of approximately 200,000 for the existing stations, from the '03 to '06 period.  Is that on track as far as you know?

8362     MR. DUNN:  Our stations this year are doing fine.  Like any company that has ‑‑ in markets of our size, where about 80% of our revenues come from local advertisers, and where our style of selling is not based on GRPs and cost per rating points and all those other wonderful things that BBM turns out and tries to confuse local advertisers with ‑‑ you know, what local advertisers really want to know is, "How are you going to sell my product?"  They're not interested in how many GRPs we've got and what our cost per point is and all that kind of thing.

8363     What we have done there is ‑‑ and, first of all, what we are subject to is a change in people.  In this past year, for example, we, unfortunately, lost two very high‑performing salespeople, but encouraged them, because they were going out to start their own business.  To us, that's pretty exciting.  They're now doing very well, almost a year later, and we still work with them and have a very good relationship with them.  It's one of the things that we try to foster within our employees, that they do the best that they possibly can for themselves.

8364     At the same time, we've also been working to identify advertisers that would be new to radio because they can't get a country music station, such as the one that we have proposed, to provide a service for them.

8365     I might just reflect back here to Peter Angle, our sales manager, who has done some work on that and has identified some of those kind of advertisers.

8366     Peter, would you like to touch on that?

8367     MR. ANGLE:  Well, I'll touch on a couple of areas, Mr. Chair.

8368     First off, I just want to take off a little bit on the selling style and also the current one that we look to employ with Country 103.

8369     As you heard in our opening remarks, our intent is to have a separate sales force, and that comes from experience that we currently have operating two stations in the marketplace with one sales force and the challenges that we face with that.  Quite frankly, we don't believe that's the best route, to have one sales force selling multiple products.  This gives us the opportunity to do it right.

8370     The other thing is that, I think with this particular ‑‑ and with any format, for that fact ‑‑ country is a very unique genre, and you've heard a lot of the detail and the passion that obviously Mike has expressed for the type of music and the understanding of it.

8371     What our customers expect from us being in the marketplace is that our salespeople, first and foremost, have to have a very good understanding of the format and better have a very good grasp of how to be able to use and market their products on our particular radio station.  In that vein, I think it's important that we distinguish that and our selling styles.

8372     As far as the market impact is concerned, you know, we took a real hard look at that, and obviously that's a factor that we've identified.  But we've also identified, as you've heard from Mike here as well too, there are several advertisers that are out there that don't have an avenue for it.  We've heard from Cactus Jack's, in our opening remark, which is a country western bar in town here.  Obviously, there's no avenue for them to go.  But there's others.

8373     I was, you know, laughing yesterday when people said, "Well, who are they?"  And I started throwing out names like Horse Barn and Cowboy Coffee, and they started laughing, "You're making those names up."  I said, "No, I'm not."  Those are businesses within our community that are not advertising on radio right now that see an opportunity with this new station.

8374     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I guess the simple focus is that, in your impact analysis that you've done on pages 33 and 34, a major chunk of your projected first‑year revenues is growth, is $200,000 growth, and if the trend is that we're not seeing that growth, based on the period that you've covered and the trend in the market, then a major chunk of that impact then shifts to existing stations, because you do have other sources as well.  Perhaps you could just comment on that?  And if that $200,000 growth isn't there in the market, what do we do?

8375     MR. DUNN:  Well, we're confident on the $200,000 in growth.  We've done some calculations on how many advertisers it would take in order to achieve that.  We're very comfortable with the number of people that aren't using radio right now that do want to reach that country audience.

8376     Interestingly enough, if you look at the Mustel Research, which I'm sure you have, you know, advertisers will increase their budgets to reach this particular market, because it is a specific niche market.

8377     I happened to be walking out from Rotary ‑‑ this is an anecdotal piece for you ‑‑ this past Monday, leaving my Rotary club and walking out with one of the car dealers that's a member of our club, and he says, "What's the big fuss over all this, you know, the station and so on?"  And I said, "Well, you know, that's part of the game," and tried to give a non‑answer to him.  And his response back to me was, "Well, look.  I'm interested in selling trucks.  And if that station is going to deliver more sales to me, I'm going to increase my advertising budget to go on that station."

8378     So what I hear from that is, that's going to have no impact on any of the other stations in the market, and that comes from a very large advertiser.

8379     So we see not only that kind of thing happening, but we also see the types of advertisers that Peter has enumerated that don't use radio right now, but are looking for a country music venue in order to get them.

8380     THE CHAIRPERSON:  To press the limits of your confidence, what if the Commission were to license two stations out of this proceeding; would you be able to proceed in those circumstances?

8381     MR. DUNN:  Well, that's a difficult question, and we've wrestled with that one.  The obvious gut feeling is, you know, the market just can't support two stations at this time, and we base that on the population growth.  The last time that a station was licensed was 1983.  In that period of time, up till now, the market that is grown by about one third or 22,000 people, and about 1,400 more people per station available now than there was in 1983, when that station was licensed.

8382     However, if there was to be another station licensed, it would reduce it down below the 1980s level.  I know the experience that we went through in the 1980s with having three players in the market.  It led to an awful lot of undue, overly competitive competition, in my opinion, with the end result that the stand‑alone FM lost significant millions and subsequently decided to sell to us because they felt that was the better thing for the marketplace.

8383     I notice that Mr. Arnish, in his comments by intervention representing the Jim Pattison Company group, and also in remarks that he made at the CRTC hearing, when they were applying for a new station in Red Deer, talked about the solidity of the market, the calmness of the market, the good service that could be provided with two ownership groups in the marketplace.  So those kinds of things keep ringing in my head as we have evaluated this.

8384     At the same time, if PBIT becomes a very crucial issue for you, you know, with our rough calculation, you know, if you were to add another station to the market, probably the 17 percent or 18 percent PBIT level that is there now would be reasonable to accept one more station into the marketplace, but to add two, I think we'd be challenging that PBIT level and probably knocking it down quite a bit because then we're going to get into undue price competition and price wars, and that could, in fact, result in a lessening of revenues in the marketplace.

8385     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  You mentioned earlier, in your previous response, also in reference to PBITs, that you had associated companies that were involved somehow in the financial picture?  Could you elaborate on that?

8386     MR. DUNN:  I'll turn that over to Ravinder, perhaps, for a response on that?  He looks after our full accounting and controlling of the company, and it's the same shareholders, I will tell you that, that are in both companies, and Rav can give you a little bit more detail on how exactly that works.

8387     MR. DHALIWAL:  Mr. Chair, can I just get clarification on that question first?  I missed part of it.

8388     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, the question arises from the response that Mr. Dunn gave when we were discussing PBITs, and he said that PBIT isn't always ‑‑ I think, to paraphrase him, and correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Dunn ‑‑ it may not be the best reflection of the financial status of the company because there are affiliated companies that are involved in financial transactions that might affect PBIT, so I guess it's for you to elaborate on that.

8389     MR. DHALIWAL:  I can do that, yes.

8390     In the CRTC requirements for an AM/FM combination in one market, if your levels of revenues are below ‑‑ and your staff can attest to this ‑‑ $4 million in sales, we're only required to report to a certain level.  In that level, there is no clarification for intracompany directors' fees, dividends, or anything that get moved from one company to the other.

8391     That's where the confusion, I believe, is, is that if we were reporting on the second level, those numbers would have shown up separately, and they would have been pulled out of the reports and show that the PBIT was actually closer to the 16.9 or 17 percent.

8392     So they're related companies.  The one company that we have is a management company which offers the staff, the payroll, and for tax purposes, we move everything into one company; and therefore, the numbers that show on our NL Broadcasting, which is the broadcasting side of the company, are definitely skewed down.

8393     THE CHAIRPERSON:  That may be a discussion for another day.  Thank you for that clarification.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

8394     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Finally, I would just ask you, Mr. Dunn, whether you have anything to add?  If I haven't asked you the questions to set up the answers that you wanted to give, then please ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

8395     MR. DUNN:  Well, that's a nice way of phrasing it.  We had to think hard on many of your questions, congratulations, and we appreciate the questioning as well.

8396     This is a proud moment for us, it's a proud day.  As you well know, we don't appear before you every week or every time there's a licence call because we are a Kamloops broadcaster, and that's the area that we're most proud to serve.  It's our hometown.

8397     I may just finish off by talking about some reasons that we feel that NL broadcasting is the best one to receive this licence.

8398     As you know, the Commission has stated there are four criteria for evaluating the licence applications, and that you would decide the relative weight in each circumstance.

8399     At the risk of being accused of some bias here, it's our sincere belief that we fulfil these criteria better than the other applicants, and I'll take a few moments to explain why.

8400     The market can sustain a new station, particularly when it has the local operational synergies that we bring.  Most of the studies show that our AM station, CHNL, will be the one most affected by a new station.  We can withstand a transfer of some revenue to our own station, Country 103, but the impact of a new entrant will definitely impact and hurt CHNL.

8401     Licensing NL brings a competitive balance to the market that has not existed for some time.  Our competitor, Pattison Broadcasting, has five revenue streams, with two FM stations, a local television station, and the capacity to insert commercials into the programs of two other TV stations.

8402     Third, we offer a strength in news service, to ensure sustained and meaningful editorial difference.  Our commitments to news, including a separate news editor for Country 103, and a newsroom staffed 20 hours every day, are significantly higher than our competitors.

8403     There are now nine ‑‑ eleven other independent news voices available in the market, so we are well‑served by diversity.

8404     Fourth, the quality of our application enjoys four superior components.  We propose a realistic business plan based upon our lengthy experience in the market and an ongoing commitment to a broad‑based country western format.  This format is confirmed by many sources as the one that's most in demand.

8405     We propose to surpass the regulatory requirement for Canadian content with 40 percent.  Our strategic alliances with the B.C. Country Music Association and Cactus Jack's Nightclub ensure extensive exposure for regional acts.

8406     We propose innovative, locally originated, locally oriented Canadian talent development initiatives, far ahead of others in our area and very realistic for Kamloops.

8407     Last, but most important, we'll profile more local reflection.  Our track record, as evidenced by the over 1,100 letters written in support of NL, confirms our commitment to Kamloops.

8408     We propose more spoken word than any other applicant.  We propose more locally originated broadcasting than the others.  We propose a newsroom open the whole broadcast week.  And we propose features and a musical format more adapted to the western heritage of Kamloops.

8409     Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission, we triggered this call because our friends, our neighbours, our clients, our listeners told us they felt betrayed by the loss of country, and they encouraged us to return it.  You'll be strengthening the local ownership status in Canadian radio by initialling NL Broadcasting this new FM licence.

8410     We know that if we had merely asked for a conversion of CHNL to the FM band, we would probably not have had the call for competing applications.  But moving to the FM band would still have left unsatisfied people.  Either we would have dropped NL's format, and abandoned the many people who can only receive AM in the terrain that we have around our area, or we would not have met the demand for country.

8411     What we did is we chose to extend service, not maintain the status quo.

8412     We thank you for the opportunity today.

8413     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

8414     Commissioner Williams?

8415     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good morning, Mr. Dunn.

8416     MR. DUNN:  Good morning.

8417     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  We've had a long week here.

8418     MR. DUNN:  Yes, you have.

8419     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  And we've heard a lot of serious propositions, and yours is the last of the ones that we're hearing today.

8420     I was going to take advantage of your generous offer to have a small sampling of this cowboy poetry that you so generously offered a little earlier, if your group can indulge us.

8421     MR. DUNN:  Thank you.  Well, that would be very nice, and, Mike, are you going to do "Man in the Moon"?

8422     MR. PUHALLO:  Yes, I can.

8423     MR. DUNN:  Mike will set this up for you.  You know, there's a stereotypical thing here that happens with cowboy poetry and western music, and we don't buy into that.  Here's one of the reasons why.  When you see the level to which this cowboy poetry has risen, and I don't mean that, Mike, in the pun sense, in the way that it's gone.  He may be too bashful to tell you this, but this is a poem that he created that is read to the NASA astronauts that go off into space from Cape Canaveral, and we're extremely proud of Mike in Kamloops and for what he's accomplished, and I hope you enjoy this poem.

8424     MR. PUHALLO:  Okay.  I did kind of run away from home to be a cowboy when I was 16 and went to work for Douglas Lake Cattle Company, and that was the summer of 1969, when the first man landed on the moon.  As Robbie mentioned, this poem has been posted on a NASA web site and read at a NASA launch, but it wasn't at Cape Canaveral, it was Andrews Air Force Base in California.  Anyway, the Clementine mission was the only lunar mission launched in 1994, which was the 25th anniversary year of when the first man landed on the moon, so that's when they read it at that launch.

8425     "The Man in the Moon.":

"I laid on my back in the cool damp grass about an hour or more just beyond the light of a coal oil lamp that shone from the bunkhouse door.  Old Drake came by nearly tripped on me and asked, `Mikey, what are you doin'?'  I said `Hush up, Jack, and sit a spell'  `I'm waiting for the man on the moon!'  You see I had my radio there an' history was in the makin'.  There were things going on in the clear night sky that would set your head to shaking.  A few at a time the rest of the crew came out to join us there Til' ten cowboys lay in the cool damp grass and stared up through the clear night air.  Well, that old transistor crackled with static at times it was damned hard to hear.  But the rising moon was so big and bright Man, I've never seen it so near.  Them folks on the radio chattered on so about this lunar landing, an' most of it was technical junk, beyond my understanding.  Then we heard that spaceman say something about one small step for man, we all hung close to the radio to listen the best we can.  Now a lot of that broadcast was lost to us Between static and the coyotes tune, but we caught enough to know darn well a man was on the moon.  Now a cowboy can't stay up that late the morning comes too soon. so we drank to his health and each in turn said `Good night' to the man in the moon.  But it must have been late when I found my bunk I slept in til nearly four and it was my turn to jingle the horses and knock on the old cooks door.  By the time I had the jingles done and ran those ponies in.  Dawn was a breakin in the eastern sky, and the moon was pale and thin.  No time to think about space men now, just grab breakfast and leave on a trot; there's a gather to make and cows to move before the sun gets hot.  A lot of summers have come and gone since that one at Douglas Lake, but none that did so much to mold the kind of man I'd make.  It was a season full of adventure there's lots of memories there, like when Darwin's horse pitched him in the creek or the time Red roped the bear. but by far my fondest memory of a summer that ended too soon was ten cowboys sprawled in the cool damp grass, Jes' watching the man in the moon."

‑‑‑ Applause / Applaudissements

8426     THE CHAIRPERSON:  One small step for you; a giant step for the CRTC.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

8427     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

8428     Counsel?  It seems anticlimactic, but there you go.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

8429     MR. STEWART:  Just for the record, just to confirm that you would be willing to accept your CTD commitments as condition of licence?

8430     MR. DUNN:  Not only accept it, we're excited to do it.  We see the value of the Canadian country artists, the number that are in our area, and we're more than delighted to do 40 percent.

8431     MR. STEWART:  Thank you very much.

8432     Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

8433     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Dunn, ladies and gentlemen.

8434     Mr. Secretary?

8435     MR. LeBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

8436     That does conclude Phase I

8437     We shall now start Phase II, in which we will ask the applicants, in the same order, to intervene on competing applications.

8438     The first to do so will be Standard Radio Incorporated.

‑‑‑ Pause

8439     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Shafer, whenever you're ready.

INTERVENTION

8440     MR. SHAFER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

8441     My name is Don Shafer, Vice‑President and General Manager of Standard's radio stations and TV stations in the Interior of B.C.

8442     Standard Radio believes the record of the public hearing will provide the Commission with all its needs on the merits or demerits of each application.  Accordingly, Standard Radio waives its right to intervene at this time.

8443     Thank you.

8444     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thanks very much.

8445     Mr. Secretary.

8446     MR. LeBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

8447     I will now ask Evanov Radio Group Incorporated to intervene at this time.

8448     MR. EVANOV:  Good morning.  The Evanov Radio Group has no intervention to file.

8449     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  How are you feeling this morning, Mr. Evanov?

8450     MR. EVANOV:  A little bit better, a little bit better.  It's coming along.

8451     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good.

8452     MR. EVANOV:  Actually, aside from everything else, what we remembered last night, as we left, was it was a year ago we were in Halifax, on March the third.  Not that it was the Ides of March, that's a bit later, but it was Mr. Williams' birthday then, and also, I have a daughter who also has a birthday, because she phoned me last night ‑‑ we phoned her, it was her birthday, too.  I can't remember, but I think that it was the Chair's birthday around that time as well.

8453     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Today is David Colville's birthday.

8454     MR. EVANOV:  David Colville's.  So everybody was wishing everybody a happy birthday.

8455     THE CHAIRPERSON:  We try and get Commissioner Williams on a hearing during his birthday every year.

8456     MR. EVANOV:  Always, yeah.  Tie him up, tie him up.  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

8457     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

8458     Mr. Secretary?

8459     MR. LeBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  I will now ask NL Broadcasting Ltd. to intervene at this time.

8460     MR. DUNN:  Mr. Chair and Madam Vice‑Chair, members of the Commission and staff, I think we covered our points that we wish to sell.  An old mentor of mine said, "If you've got something to sell, sell it.  If you don't, keep your mouth shut."

8461     So I think we'll follow his good advice here today.  Thank you very much for your time.

8462     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

8463     Mr. Secretary?

8464     MR. LeBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  That does complete Phase II.

8465     We will now begin Phase III, which are the third party intervenors, and the first to appear will be the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Limited Partnership.

8466     I would like to indicate, for example, that number 3 listed in the agenda, Barbara Chrystal, will not be appearing in the public hearing.

INTERVENTION

8467     MR. ARNISH:  Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Madam Vice‑Chairman, Commissioners, and Commission staff.

8468     Before commencing, Mr. Chairman, I would like to take this opportunity to introduce our panel.

8469     To my far right is Bruce Davis of our Kelowna operations.  Beside Bruce is Doug Collins, from our Kamloops operations.  To my left is our legal counsel, Chris Weafer; and next to Chris is Liane Partridge of Target Broadcast Sales.

8470     My name is Rick Arnish.  I reside in Kamloops, and I'm President of the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group.

8471     The Jim Pattison Broadcast Group appreciates the opportunity to appear before the Commission to answer any questions it may have in relation to its letter filed February 3rd, 2005, opposing the applications of Standard Radio Inc., Newcap Inc., Evanov Radio Group Inc., and NL Broadcasting Ltd. for a new FM licence to service Kamloops, B.C.

8472     In these comments, we will, (a), highlight the primary points made in our February 3rd written submission opposing these applications, and, (b), respond to the Letter of Standard addressed to the Commission on February 14th, 2005, which responded to our letter.

8473     We must comment on the withdrawal of the application by Newcap for a licence to service Kamloops.  While we have had no dialogue with Newcap and the reasons for the withdrawal of their application, it's a reasonable assumption that Newcap was not optimistic of the prospects of success of the Kamloops station.

8474     To summarize our written intervention, the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group is headquartered in Kamloops, B.C.  We know the market extremely well and are proud to base our Western Canadian broadcast operations in Kamloops.

8475     We have appreciated the opportunity the Commission has entrusted us with to develop our properties in Western Canada and become a responsible regional and important contributor to our local communities.

8476     We fundamentally believe in the principle of serving our communities.  We also believe that in order to properly service our communities, a reasonable level of profitability has to be achieved.  In operating secondary markets, this can be a challenge, and the Commission must be extremely cautious in overlicensing secondary markets if it wishes to maintain the level of community service and programming commitments that stations provide in that market.

8477     By "community service" I mean locally in terms of local service, news and information programming, and "community service" in terms of the objectives of the Broadcasting Act in supporting local and regional artists.

8478     It was a fundamental point of our intervention that the market of Kamloops cannot support a fifth station.  We have focussed on the population of Kamloops as a key indicator of the ability to support a new station.  We have focussed on the comparison between Kelowna, with a population of 142,705 in its BBM Fall Central Region 2004 versus Kamloops with a population of 79,000 in its BBM Fall Central Region 2004, as being a significant enough difference to evidence the fact that a fifth station will significantly negatively impact the radio market in Kamloops.

8479     The market research conducted in the applications is no match for the real experience of operators in the market in terms of assessing the viability of a fifth station in Kamloops.  As indicated in the years 2003‑2004, the net revenues of our Kamloops radio stations were reduced.  While we are great believers in the Kamloops economy and are significant supporters of Kamloops, the reality is our experience in the past year was negative.  As the Commission is aware, the reported market PBIT in Kamloops in 2003‑2004 has been grim.

8480     We would highlight our experience with a country music format in Kamloops that, notwithstanding the significant reach of our rebroadcasters, which enabled us to spread the country music format to a broader population base than what is proposed by the three FM applicants remaining in this proceeding, we were unable to achieve an acceptable level of success to justify continuing with that format in the market.  As a result, we had to change formats.

8481     We have a significant concern that if either of the remaining applicants are approved, that they will have the same experience and will switch to a more general format, thereby causing even further significant harm to the incumbent stations.  We will not be able to maintain our present levels of employment and service in the Kamloops market if a fifth station is licensed.  This is exactly what occurred when a fifth licence was issued in Kelowna in 1995, and there's no reason to expect the same would not occur in Kamloops.

8482     In our written submission, we have highlighted that the situation in Kamloops is very similar to the situation the commission dealt with in Broadcasting Decision CRTC 200‑4117, wherein the Commission did not allow the entrant of an additional radio station in that market because the entry of Newcap or Rogers would increase competition in this radio market to a level that would be unduly detrimental to existing radio stations.

8483     Of course, the Commission did approve the addition of a new station in Red Deer, Alberta, in that decision, enabling a leveling of the playing field so that the two private radio operators in that market each had two stations.  That situation already exists in Kamloops.

8484     Mr. Chairman, in concluding on the highlights of our opposing intervention, we note that a number of advertisers in the Kamloops market oppose the application and have indicated that their use of media will be affected by approval of this application.  As well, they have concerns with regard to the level of service in the market should an additional radio station be licensed to serve Kamloops.  We submit that significant weight should be given to the intervention letters opposing these applications from 18 local businesses.

8485     I would now like to comment on the reply letter of Standard dated February 14th.

8486     As mentioned, 18 local businesses filed intervention letters opposing the applications of Standard, Evanov, and NL Broadcasting.  In paragraph 2 of Standard's reply letter, they indicated that a number of the businesses which filed interventions were owned by Jim Pattison.  This statement is factually incorrect.

8487     River Shore Chrysler Jeep, Kamloops Kia, and Kamloops Mazda are not owned by Jim Pattison Industries, nor are Kamloops Harley‑Davidson, Raymond James Limited, Arby's, Orange Fat Track Outfitters Limited, Skateboard Supplies, Lavender Lingerie, Fratelli Foods, Source Adult Video, Anderson Sewing Centre, Country‑Wide Home Furnishings, nor Stereo Warehouse.

8488     It's common in proceedings for new broadcast licences to generate support from media buyers and advertisers, as it is easy to sell the concept of more is better.  It's rare to see opposition, such as we see here, and the concern raised in those letters should be given significant weight by the Commission in their assessment of this market.

8489     On page 4 of its letter, Standard makes reference to the Kamloops Official Community Plan which anticipates a regional population growth from 120,000 to 160,000.  These population estimates are misleading.  The applications by Standard, Evanov, and NL Broadcasting are not to provide a regional service; rather, it is for a specific local service, the footprint of which will cover the Kamloops CMA.

8490     Standard's own information is that this population is approximately 72,000, based on 2001 Stats Canada information.  Even relying on the BBM's Fall Central Region 2004 numbers, which Standard relies on at pages 6 and 7 of its reply letter, shows a 2004 population for Kamloops of 79,270.  That is the population base with which this fifth licence would be attempting to generate appropriate levels of revenue from.

8491     At pages 5 through 7 of its reply, Standard attempts to rebut our submission that the population of Kamloops cannot support a fifth licence by attempting to provide examples of markets comparable in size to Kamloops with five radio stations.  The BBM's Fall Central Region 2004 population for Kamloops, as I said, is 79,270.  Fredericton, New Brunswick, with a BBM's Fall Central Region 2004 population of 90,676, has five stations, one of which is a Christian station which, as a condition of licence, is not entitled to pursue commercial revenues.  Of the four remaining stations, one is a French language station.

8492     In Saint John, New Brunswick, the BBM's Fall Central Region 2004 population is 108,000.  Approximately 30,000 more than the population of Kamloops.  That market, with 30,000 more people than Kamloops, has five English‑language stations and a sixth station, which is a Christian, non‑commercial station.

8493     The last example relied on by Standard is Lethbridge, Alberta, with a BBM Fall Central Region 2004 population of 61,569.  Again, we see four commercial English‑language stations, plus one Christian non‑commercial station.  It's also worthy of note that one of the four Lethbridge stations, CJBZ‑FM, Classic Hits, Taber‑Lethbridge, services a broader market than the Lethbridge population base.

8494     None of the examples put forward by Standard indicate that any English‑language of the similar size of Kamloops supports five profitable commercial radio stations.

8495     At page 8 of Standard's reply letter, they indicate that the estimated population for Kamloops for 2005 is 91,800.  At pages 6 and 7 of Standard's reply, they utilize BBM's Fall Central Region 2004 population.  The variety of uses of sources of population is misleading.  We submit that the Commission should rely on BBM's Fall Central Region 2004 population numbers as the best population base with which to compare.

8496     Paragraph 31 of Standard's reply very clearly confirms the impact of overlicensing a market.  While it is true that Kelowna underperforms when compared to some markets, one only needs to examine pricing and inventory management by all stations to determine that each group was its own worst enemy.

8497     Kelowna is still selling discounted rates, cheaper CPMs compared to other markets, and it falls short with markets of similar size according to the TRAM report.  That is a situation which has existed in Kelowna ever since a fifth station was licensed in a market that proved unable to support it.

8498     The comments by Evanov Broadcasting yesterday before the Commission, that they would introduce a $22 60‑second rate in the market, this would have devastating effects on market pricing integrity.

8499     If one assesses reduction of service in a local radio market based on increased networking and programming, reduction of local presence in the market, and reduction in size of local newsrooms, we find it hard to believe that Standard, as it states at page 8 of its reply, "has not heard of significant reduction in service in the market."

8500     Clearly, Kelowna and surrounding market stations experienced reductions in service as a result of Kelowna not being able to support five stations.  We do not wish to see that situation repeated in Kamloops.

8501     As an example, since a fifth licence was issued in Kelowna in 1995, our newsroom has gone from nine full‑time and two part‑time newspeople, plus two dedicated talk show hosts, to four full‑time and one part‑time newsperson.  It's our understanding that the newsrooms operated by other stations in the market may also have been significantly reduced.  These reductions clearly resulted in the reduction of local service.

8502     Standard has submitted in its reply at page 9 that media buyers support the addition of a new station in Kamloops.  It's our experience that media buyers generally support new additions in a market because they can drive the cost of the market down.  This happened in Kelowna, and it will happen in Kamloops.

8503     Finally, in commenting on our new material filed by Standard, we note that at page 6 of the economic study in the new evidence filed by Standard, they highlight a very important point that relates to the Highland Valley copper mine located near Kamloops.  That mine is scheduled for production closure in the year 2009.  That mine employs approximately 700 people in high‑paying positions in the Kamloops area.  That mine will close, in all probability, within the licence term of any new licence issued by the Commission.  The impact on Kamloops of that closure cannot be overstated.

8504     To assist the Commission in understanding that impact, we attach an excerpt from the socioeconomic impact statement prepared in May of 2003 and commissioned by Highland Valley Copper entitled "Summary of Kamloops Impacts."

8505     We submit that the approval of a new licence to service the Kamloops market will have a significant negative impact on our operations in that market.  It will impact our profitability and will result in a corresponding reduction in the level of service in the market.

8506     This concern was highlighted when the reported grim PBIT of the Kamloops market at 9.53 percent in 2003 and 8.02 percent in 2004 were discussed yesterday.  These amounts are amounts at less than half the national average.

8507     Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission, while our stations are exceeding the market PBIT average in Kamloops, they are, as a combination, under the national average.  Based on the information provided yesterday, it is clear a competitor station must be well below the national average.  The introduction of a new station to Kamloops would not magically create new revenues in the market to solve this problem, as asserted by the applicants; it would exacerbate the problem.

8508     A new station would further cannibalize hard‑earned market share in a difficult market to a level further below the national average and would clearly do more significant harm to the other two‑station combo in Kamloops, NL Broadcasting.

8509     As for NL Broadcasting, based on the information provided yesterday in the market PBIT, we are shocked that they would be seeking an additional licence from the Commission in the face of an inability to report acceptable levels of profitability in a four‑station market.  To reward them with an additional licence given that situation makes no sense from a market perspective.  More importantly, from a policy perspective, we submit it would be an inappropriate precedent for the Commission to set.

8510     The addition of a new statement for NL will serve only to increase inventory at reduced cost again, further cannibalizing the profitability of the Kamloops market.

8511     In closing, Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission, we thank you for the opportunity to express our views this morning, and we look forward to any questions that you may have.

8512     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Arnish.

8513     Commissioner Pennefather.

8514     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

8515     Good morning, everyone.

8516     Just a clarification, Mr. Arnish.  You, at paragraph 16 this morning, challenge Standard's estimated population for 2005's 91,800.  What is your comment on the estimates provided by NL this morning on population growth for Kamloops?

8517     MR. ARNISH:  We have certainly, in the City of Kamloops, seen very little growth over the last 10 to 15 years.  Mr. Dunn made mention of the economic viability of the marketplace going back to the early '80s.  And if I can digress for a moment, I would like to go back to the late '70s, early '80s ‑‑ I've lived in Kamloops all my life.  I wasn't born in Kamloops but I've lived there since I was 6 months old.  So I've seen the boom‑and‑bust cycles in the city.  But it was in the early '80s when Kamloops, being an economic resource‑based community, was thriving.  The prognosticators in British Columbia were predicting that by the early 1990s, Kamloops would have a population of 100,000 people.

8518     In June of 1981, the economy in British Columbia basically crashed, and the population of Kamloops lost 10,000 people.

8519     We, today, are only getting back at the 79,000 or 80,000 population mark to what it was back in the 1980s.  The indications that we get from the City of Kamloops is that the population base will only increase per annum by about 1.25 percent, which basically is about 950 to 1,000 people.

8520     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So even with 2010, you don't see that that ‑‑ you do see some acceleration, some increase, but do you not see that that would add to the increase and be a little more optimistic than what you're predicting going forward?

8521     MR. ARNISH:  Well, we're like our competitors in Kamloops, we're great community boosters, both of us.  We want to see Kamloops grow and prosper.  But even in the last ten years, which is more current, the Interior of British Columbia has suffered drastically by a serious economic turn‑down.

8522     We've had, and it's still ongoing, the softwood lumber dispute in the Interior of British Columbia, which has impacted the economy; the beetle forestry problem, where the pine beetle and the fir beetle is basically eating up the forests in the Interior of British Columbia, is impacting the economy.  The economic situation in the Interior of British Columbia, the previous 10 or 11 years, was very, very serious.  And a lot of people left cities like Kamloops and basically went to a province like Alberta or Ontario to seek employment.

8523     The 2010 Winter Olympics, we're all positive about that.  We think that's great for the Province of British Columbia.  As an economic generator, we believe that most of the economic benefit is going to be in the Lower Mainland, the Squamish‑Whistler corridor.  I think that tradespeople from Kamloops perhaps will leave the city, as they will other cities in the Interior, to come and work in the Lower Mainland and in Squamish and in Whistler, building the new facilities for the Winter Games.

8524     It's going to be a big benefit to British Columbia, but it's going to be an even bigger benefit to the Lower Mainland.  We are going to get some spin‑off, but it's not going to be great, in my opinion.

8525     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Hence your grim picture, grim presentation this morning.

8526     You were here yesterday for the discussion with Mr. Evanov?

8527     MR. ARNISH:  Yes.

8528     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  He raised the concept of new player, third player, in the Kamloops market as stimulating, perhaps, change, as enhancing advertising budgets, and, in fact, I think NL made that same concept this morning in their remarks.  Advertising budgets would be enhanced rather than moved.

8529     Do you have comment on that, and that concept that Mr. Evanov raised yesterday?  Because it's obvious we have a balancing act here.  There is the picture that you're presenting on the economic side; there's also the matter of diversity of news voices in the market.

8530     So as we look at this, can you give us some comment on that concept of, perhaps there would be a stimulation if things got shaken up a bit and a new player was in the market?

8531     MR. ARNISH:  I kind of chuckled at Mr. Evanov's shaking‑up comment yesterday.

8532     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  The sandbox.

8533     MR. ARNISH:  And the sandbox.

8534     I think our competitor would agree with the statement that we shake up the market in Kamloops, in the electronic media ‑‑ in radio in particular ‑‑ all the time.

8535     NL Broadcasting is a very worthy competitor.  They contribute a lot to the community of Kamloops, as we do.  Basically, we really keep each other on our toes.

8536     When Evanov Incorporated talked about shaking up the Kamloops market, I think the market has been shaken up over the last ten to twelve years.  Mr. Dunn pointed out this morning that they were able to purchase the standalone FM back in the early '90s.  They have changed the format on that radio station on a couple of occasions.  We certainly have done that on one of our radio stations as well.  We, as you know, applied, and received from the Commission, approval to convert our AM station to FM, and created a new format that, in our opinion at the end of the day, didn't work for us.  But the market is certainly well‑served and is evolving and changing all the time.

8537     There are four distinct formats in Kamloops.  I don't want anyone here to think that there isn't.  NL Broadcasting has basically a greatest hits format, geared to a 35‑plus audience.  Our CIFM Radio is a rock radio station, geared to males, 25 to 54 and beyond; the other FM station that we own, CKBZ, is a classic hits station geared to females 25 to 54; and CHNL's FM station, CKRB‑FM, is a hot hits station that is targeted toward teens and young adults 18 to 34 years of age.

8538     So the market certainly, as I say, is changing and evolving all the time.  It certainly is not status quo.  I would say that neither of the licensees in Kamloops are taking things for granted.  We can't because we challenge each other every day.

8539     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  One final point then, so that I'm clear.  You do see, then, some growth in this market for radio advertising?

8540     MR. ARNISH:  Well, I think there's always going to be growth in the marketplace.  I guess we could use the parallel of Kelowna versus Kamloops.  Kelowna certainly has a lot more detail.  The City of Kelowna, as we've indicated, and as you're aware, has grown.  It's the big growth centre in the Interior of British Columbia.  It's one of the largest, fastest growing centres in Canada, and there's lots more retail in Kelowna than there is in Kamloops.

8541     I took the opportunity to drive around Kelowna recently, just to really see what was going on in the community.  Then I came back, and last weekend, knowing we were coming to the hearing, I took a nice long drive around our city.  If you drive into Kamloops, you don't see the same growth that's going on that you see down here in the Lower Mainland or you would see in a market the size of Kelowna.  It's just not happening.

8542     There are always businesses coming and going.  It's an evolution as well.  Businesses open; they are successful.  If they're not, they shut their doors, they file for bankruptcy, or they leave the market.

8543     Here's a prime example.  San Stores of Canada, they're in bankruptcy protection right now, but they're closing a number of their stores across the country.  And it was just announced here last week.  And this is a discount department store, as you are aware.  They're closing this 10,000 square foot store in Kamloops because the market can't support the store.

8544     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Are you talking about Kamloops?

8545     MR. ARNISH:  I'm talking about Kamloops.  And there really isn't a lot of new retail.  We did a check with the malls as well, just to see what the vacancy rates were in the malls in Kamloops, and I'm going to turn that over to Mr. Collins and let him give you a breakdown of some of the economic activities in Kamloops.

8546     Doug?

8547     MR. COLLINS:  Thank you, Madam Commissioner.

8548     There are four major shopping malls in Kamloops.  One of them, the predominant shopping mall, is 98 percent full.  Another mall has about 50 percent occupancy at the present time.  A third mall has about 60 percent occupancy, and they have gone to a non‑retail component within their confines in order to boost up occupation.  They've added a community service sector with an addition of a satellite YM‑YWCA operation, to try to take advantage of occupancy of space.

8549     The fourth mall, the oldest mall in the City of Kamloops, has just recently, in the past few years, changed their whole style of occupancy and have attracted medical clients and that sort of thing because of the declining retail opportunities.  So they've changed their style drastically to try to stay alive.

8550     So right now, there is a substantial amount of available retail space in the City of Kamloops.

8551     MR. ARNISH:  Madam Commissioner, if I could just add on to that as well?

8552     I think it's really important for us to talk about the economy in Kamloops, and recently we had a discussion with Venture Kamloops, and Venture Kamloops has been brought up by some of the applicants here before you in Vancouver.

8553     We had a good discussion with Venture Kamloops, which is the economic development arm for the city, and M.J. Cousins of that economic development office says, well, last year was a bit of a turn‑around year, and there is interest in the City of Kamloops.  There really is nothing huge that is on the horizon, from their viewpoint, for the local economy.  They don't see any large manufacturing plants coming into Kamloops that are going to set up shop that are going to employ 200, 300, 400 people in high paying jobs.

8554     And we're very concerned about the situation at Highland Valley Copper.  That mine's been a godsend to Kamloops for the last 25 to 30 years.  They had at one time 1,100 or 1,200 employees, and the mine, as we mention, is definitely going to close down over the next five or six years, or sooner, perhaps, if the price of copper dips below 80 cents U.S. a pound.

8555     It's not only the jobs at Highland Valley Copper that we're concerned about disappearing from the Kamloops market, but it's all the regional drops and the indirect jobs that now benefit by Highland Valley Copper being in close proximity to Kamloops.

8556     The statistics from the school board, School District No. 73, talks about enrolment figures and staff changes.  They indicate that in the past eight years, the district has lost more than 2,700 students and 122 teaching positions.

8557     I'd like to talk about housing starts in Kamloops as well, if I may?

8558     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I think I've got the picture, Mr. Arnish.  It's not quite as shiny as the picture we had this morning.

8559     MR. ARNISH:  No, and, you know ‑‑

8560     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I understand your point, and I think what I was concerned about was, as opposed to a comparative analysis, which you did quite a bit of, that we had your understanding of the Kamloops situation.  As you said, we're looking at this local service.

8561     Thank you very much.

8562     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Langford?

8563     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I just wanted to ask you about something you said in reply to my colleague, Commissioner Pennefather.

8564     You were talking about the flip of CFJC to FM, and it's now CKBZ‑FM.  And I think, if I wrote down what you said, you said, "We converted that to a format that, in our opinion, didn't work for us."

8565     Is that a fair transcription of what you said?

8566     MR. ARNISH:  Yes.

8567     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So my question is:  Are you going to go back to country with that?

8568     MR. ARNISH:  Good question.  After hearing what we've heard from some of the applicants here today, I guess you'd have to sort of think about that.

8569     No, we have no intention of going back to country music in Kamloops.  We were the operator that, over the years, over the last 40 years, were in country music.  I have a country music library at home.  Probably a third of my CD collection, and I still have an album collection at home, is country music.  I love country music.  But I love rock music.  I love classical music.  And I love adult standards as well.

8570     But we played country music for 40 years.  We decided, in the early 2000s, that we would apply to the Commission to convert our AM station to FM because of the economic plight that our AM station was in at the time.  And we felt, going to FM, there would be a big enough demand there that we could certainly make the station break even or be somewhat profitable.  But that didn't happen.

8571     Mr. Yerxa yesterday said, on behalf of the Standard group, that country music is cyclical ‑‑ as I guess all formats are.  And he said it's at the bottom end of the cycle.  Well, we don't see it, in our opinion, that country music is going to come roaring back over the next long period of time.

8572     Our concern for licensing another station in Kamloops is the fact that it is a central market radio station.  It's not going to reach to the outlying areas.  We have rebroadcasters, and we had rebroadcasters for the country station in eight other markets throughout the Kamloops region, of population bases as big as Merritt to smaller ones that had 5,000 and 6,000 people, that shop in the Kamloops market.  Well, none of the applicants in front of you have applied to have rebroads to cover the outlying areas.

8573     For the most part, the two country applicants, they're talking about reaching out to the community.  Well, their community, in our opinion, respectful opinion to the applicants, is in the outlying areas outside the City of Kamloops.  We service those people, and I believe we service them very, very well.  But at the end of the day, we couldn't get the advertising community, both from a local retail basis and regional and national advertising, to buy the country market in Kamloops.

8574     It is a tough market.  Yes, there is a lot of people ‑‑ and we'll readily admit, there was a lot of people upset at us last year or a year and a half ago when we decided to leave the country music format.  Let me tell you, we had a lot of soul‑searching, a lot of sleepless nights before we made that decision, but we made the decision because we felt that it was the best decision for our business.  There's nothing precluding any of the applicants, if you do licence one of them, going to an adult standards format or a country format, finding out they have the same problem we had, and then going to another populist format, which is not going to be in the best interests of the market, in our opinion.  It will really decimate the market going forward.

8575     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But you're not going back to country?

8576     MR. ARNISH:  No, we're not.

8577     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.  That's my question.

8578     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Just two questions.

8579     One, paragraph 12 of your presentation today, where you deal with the 18 local businesses, and Standard's contention that a number of them are owned by Jim Pattison, and then you say, "This statement is factually incorrect."  And then you list a number of individual companies that aren't owned by Pattison.

8580     Would it be a fair summary of the next few lines to say, none of the 18 companies is owned by Jim Pattison or Jim Pattison Industries.

8581     MR. ARNISH:  I would say, yes, that is correct, Mr. Chairman, other than one.  One of our food stores in Kamloops sent in an intervention, and it was Save‑On Foods, which is owned by Jim Pattison Industries.  But all the other ones are definitely independent businesspeople in Kamloops.

8582     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So isn't one a number?

8583     MR. ARNISH:  Well, I guess maybe it is.  But what we're saying here is, they've quoted these companies, particularly the three car dealers, as being owned by Jim Pattison Industries, which is factually incorrect, and we just wanted to make sure that you had that clarification.

8584     THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's why the question.  So, in effect, what you're saying is one of the 18 is owned by Jim Pattison ‑‑

8585     MR. ARNISH:  But not in this list that's here.

8586     THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, but this is only ‑‑ what? ‑‑ 13 or 14.

8587     MR. ARNISH:  Yeah, a portion of them.  But these were the ones that were in the Standard intervention.

8588     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So which ones in the Standard intervention aren't here?  I haven't got the list with me.  And are all of those owned by Jim Pattison?

8589     MR. ARNISH:  No, they're not.  I can submit a list, if counsel would like that, or if you'd like that as well.

8590     For the record, I'll read off all the 18 interventions that the Commission does have on file that are opposing a licensing of a fifth radio station in Kamloops ‑‑

8591     THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's not necessary.  The question is, read only the companies on that list that are owned by Jim Pattison or Jim Pattison ‑‑

8592     MR. ARNISH:  None of those are.

8593     THE CHAIRPERSON:  None of those are?

8594     MR. ARNISH:  No.

8595     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  So just one of his companies submitted an intervention ‑‑

8596     MR. ARNISH:  That is correct.  That's correct, Mr. Chair.

8597     THE CHAIRPERSON:  The other question is, paragraphs 22 and following on grim PBIT and so forth, were you present for the discussion with the controller of NL, Mr. Dhaliwal?

8598     MR. ARNISH:  Yes, I was.

8599     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is your own filing of returns with the Commission done in a way that also does not include $4 million of revenue?

8600     MR. ARNISH:  In markets where that is, that is the case as well, but it doesn't relate to all stations.

8601     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it does not relate to Kamloops?  So your numbers, your revenue ‑‑

8602     MR. ARNISH:  It does relate to one of our stations in Kamloops.

8603     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  So we don't have the full ‑‑ in our financial summaries, we don't have your full revenues either.

8604     MR. ARNISH:  Yes, you'd have our full revenues.

8605     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So what is missing?

8606     MR. ARNISH:  From our perspective, I guess, in Kamloops, there would be a management fee charged to one of our FM stations, where the other stations, there isn't.

8607     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  But that would tend to make the PBIT higher, wouldn't it, if it's an expense that you're not reporting?

8608     MR. ARNISH:  Yes, that's true, as it would be in the case of NL Broadcasting too.

8609     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  But my impression, and they can clarify it in reply, was that there was a portion of revenues not being included and, hence, PBIT levels were lower than they actually were in fact.

8610     MR. ARNISH:  That's true.

8611     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So my question is, are all the revenues for both your Kamloops stations reported to us and included in our financial summaries?

8612     MR. ARNISH:  Yes, that's correct.

8613     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  So I guess your PBITs ‑‑ well, I'm still trying to work that through to the PBITs then.  You're saying that there might be certain expenses not included.

8614     MR. ARNISH:  No.

8615     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You're not saying that?

8616     MR. ARNISH:  No.  I mean, the revenues that you have from us in Kamloops are actual revenues for our radio stations and our television station.

8617     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Weafer.

8618     MR. WEAFER:  Mr. Chairman, just to see if we can clarify?

8619     The Pattison stations in Kamloops do report all their revenues and all their expenses for their AM and FM combo.  There is no management fee deducted or added either way to their radio stations in that market.

8620     They were surprised by the comments this morning, and they look forward to the follow‑up on that to understand exactly how that is impacting the reported PBIT because it's not entirely clear to them what the implications are of what was said by NL this morning.  We just don't know.  It was a surprise to us.  We'd like to hear how that dialogue unfolds.

8621     But the Kamloops stations of Jim Pattison Industries do report complete revenues and expenses for their AM and FM operations.  There is no management expense added or deducted from those revenues.

8622     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  I have that information then on the record.

8623     I assume, Mr. Arnish, you're satisfied with that answer.  But you did not, just before Mr. Weafer took the mic, did not seem surprised in respect of other markets with regard to Pattison.  I'm not trying to probe into other markets, but this did not appear to you to be something that came out of the blue, the testimony of Mr. Dhaliwal.

8624     What I'm taking from this, and correct me if I'm wrong, is it doesn't apply in Kamloops, and I guess one question is why, if it does apply in other markets.  If it does not apply in other markets, then make sure you get that on the record.

8625     MR. ARNISH:  I think in the case of other markets, when we had other entities that now come under the umbrella of Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Ltd., there was ‑‑ and I haven't got the information in front of me, but I certainly would be pleased to table it with the Commission, if you so desire ‑‑ there was some management fees paid over the years through the other entities that now have been brought into Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Ltd., and unfortunately, I don't have that material with me.

8626     THE CHAIRPERSON:  We may want to clarify reporting generally for all the radio companies ‑‑

8627     MR. ARNISH:  That would be fine, Mr. Chair.

8628     THE CHAIRPERSON:  But in Kamloops, Mr. Weafer's statement is what we're taking away from this, that what you see is what you get in the financials.  Thank you.

8629     Commissioner Wiley?

8630     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Mr. Arnish, are your two stations operated in the same building here?

8631     MR. ARNISH:  Yes, they are, ma'am.

8632     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  They're two FMs right now.

8633     MR. ARNISH:  That's correct.

8634     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So would you share also tower accommodation?

8635     MR. ARNISH:  Yes, that's correct.  And we lease space to our competitor as well, just like other companies do as well.

8636     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So between the AM and the FM, would there be room for putting more expenses where you're making more money, with the overhead and so on?  Is that what you were referring to?

8637     MR. ARNISH:  Well, it could be, but we don't do that.

8638     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  No.  But there would be room for spreading the overhead ‑‑ let's say the cost of the building, et cetera, in an allocation that could be related to revenues rather than half and half.

8639     MR. ARNISH:  It could be, but we don't do it that way.  We follow the GAAP rules.

8640     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Thank you.

8641     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Commissioner Langford.

8642     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Sir, just one more question.  On the first question that Chairman Dalfen brought up with regard to the 18 local businesses on page 5 of your presentation this morning and you say they're not owned by Jim Pattison.  But are they owned in some way that Pattison or Pattison Industries or one of Pattison's companies or one of Pattison's uncles or somebody might have ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

8643     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ‑‑ well, a special relationship with any of these things?  Ownership is one thing; a hunk of the action is another.

8644     MR. ARNISH:  That's a fair question, but, no.  Mr. Pattison himself or none of the companies of all the companies that we mentioned today have anything to do directly or indirectly with those companies at all.  There's no ownership issue there at all.

8645     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Total arm's length all the way?

8646     MR. ARNISH:  Absolutely.

8647     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.

8648     MR. ARNISH:  You're welcome.

8649     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That is my final question.

8650     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, gentlemen.

8651     Mr. Secretary?

8652     MR. LeBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

8653     The next appearing intervention will be presented by Diana Kelly, President of Active Mountain Entertainment.

‑‑‑ Pause

8654     MS. KELLY:  Hi.

8655     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Please.

INTERVENTION

8656     MS. KELLY:  I'm sorry.  My name is Diana Kelly, I'm the President of Active Mountain Entertainment Corp.  We produce a major festival in Merritt, British Columbia, annually, the Merritt Mountain Music Festival.  It's totally country.

8657     I would like to suggest that there has been a sad lack in a major market of our vicinity by not having country music.

8658     The format is very important to growing talent.  Mountainfest has provided an asset to the community of the Interior of B.C., Thompson‑Okanagan region.  We bring approximately 135,000 people per annum to this event.

8659     I'm a little nervous, sorry.

8660     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Please relax.

8661     MS. KELLY:  What I would like to say is, I want to intervene on behalf of the country music format.  That is an essential loss that we have suffered and we're working through, albeit that the country demographic has gone down in age.  That is a good thing.  That is a good thing.  And my sense of this is that we are missing that format in that market.

8662     What I'd like to suggest is that I am aware that there are benefits by both companies that have their applications in to the festival.  But the most important thing here is that it grows country music talent.

8663     At Mountainfest, we have what I call a little big stage.  Last year, we presented 27 new Canadian country music talents between the ages of 9 and 19.  I think it's very important that these things continue, and I really feel that I am, sadly, as a marketer, lacking the benefit of the station format in the Interior market.  Eighty‑five percent of our clients come from the Lower Mainland, Vancouver Island, Washington State.  The rest come from the Interior of British Columbia.  And I think that that's very vital to continue that road.

8664     I don't know what else to say.

8665     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You made yourself very clear.

8666     MS. KELLY:  Thank you.

8667     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Langford?

8668     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I just want to have a quick discussion about love with you.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

8669     MS. KELLY:  Yeah?  I know.

8670     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Some people love chocolate and they just can't believe other people don't.

8671     MS. KELLY:  Yes.

8672     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And some people love Mozart, and they just can't believe anybody listens to Bach.  And some people love collecting barbed wire, for goodness' sake.  Antiques; and other people want nothing but Danish modern.

8673     I think what we heard here from the Pattison group is, though they acknowledge the fact that they were practically lynched when they took country off and a lot of people love it, they can't seem to make a business case out of it.

8674     So I'd kind of ask you to try to put the toughest look on your face you can and set aside, for a moment, the incredible annual popularity of your festival, which everybody knows is just wonderful, but it's not all year long, and is there enough of a love of country music in your area to make a business case all year long, 365 days a year?

8675     MS. KELLY:  Okay.

8676     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  'Cause there is for chocolate, we know that for sure.

8677     MS. KELLY:  I'm in agreement.  Music is music.  What we're finding is that country has an awful lot of roots.  It goes an awful long way.  I love Paul McCartney.  I mean ‑‑

8678     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So does my wife, and it bothers me.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

8679     MS. KELLY:  What we delved into is a million dollar business as well.  It's taken us 13 years to bring this prospect to the Province of B.C.  This is something that ‑‑ yes, country is of the heart.  You're correct in saying that.

8680     I'm not saying that other music genres don't work, because they do.  What I'm suggesting to you is that this format is sadly lacking there.

8681     I market with all radio stations.  There is a need for this.  Mountainfest has been successful for a couple of things:  Country music first and the feel, the love of it.  And you want me to take the love out of it?  I can't.

8682     As a business, I struggled.  Ups and downs.  There are everything ‑‑ up and down.  But we've worked through it, and I believe, honestly, that this is a market that is there.

8683     Thank you, sir.

8684     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.

8685     That's my question.

8686     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

8687     MS. KELLY:  You're welcome.

8688     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Secretary, next item.

8689     MR. LeBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  The next two appearing interventions will be presented by the National Campus Community Radio Association and by Mr. Brant Zwicker.

‑‑‑ Pause

INTERVENTION

8690     MS. ZALTZ:  Good morning.  My name is Freya Zaltz, and I'm President of the National Campus and Community Radio Association or NCRA.

8691     Vice‑President Robert Schmidt submitted our intervention letter concerning the application of Evanov Radio Group Incorporated, but he's in Winnipeg, so I'm here in his place.

8692     The National Campus and Community Radio Association, or the NCRA, is a not‑for‑profit organization committed to volunteer‑based community and campus radio broadcasting in Canada.  The NCRA works to advance the role and increase the effectiveness of community access broadcasting in Canada.  It provides information and networking services to its members, representing the interests of the sector, and promoting public awareness and appreciation for community and campus radio.

8693     The NCRA filed a letter on February 2nd, 2005, to the CRTC concerning the application of Evanov Radio Group.  Although we are not opposed in principle to this applicant receiving a broadcasting licence in the Kamloops area, we do have serious concerns with their choice of frequency, which is 92.5 FM, and the impact it will have on CFBX, a low‑power community‑based campus radio station in Kamloops.

8694     CFBX is a member station of the NCRA.  The station is a success story when it comes to current community radio regulations.  Starting with a successful student referendum at the University College of the Cariboo in 1997, showing nearly 90 percent support, CFBX began broadcasting at 92.5 FM in early 2001, thanks to the new category of developmental licence established by the CRTC.

8695     This route was taken because it provided a very fast, low‑cost option for a community to establish a radio station.  CFBX was the first campus developmental licence granted in Canada, the third developmental licence of any sort in the country, and the first campus FM licence in the B.C. Interior.

8696     Since their developmental phase ended, they have graduated to full broadcasting licence, still at 92.5 FM, though at the time of application, they could not afford to increase their power beyond their current 4.9 watts.

8697     As one of the first licensees in this category, CFBX set an example for communities across the country and offered a blueprint of how a community could create a viable radio station under the new streamlined process.

8698     Despite having few resources, they have accomplished an enormous amount since 2001 in terms of structural development, building a loyal audience, and raising community awareness of, and substantial support for, the service they provide.

8699     The station has been planning to apply for a Class A protected frequency for some time, but setting aside funds for this project is extremely difficult for a volunteer‑driven, not‑for‑profit organization, such as CFBX.  Due to the considerable research and expenses required by such a project, it can take a long time for a community station to realize this goal.

8700     CFBX has spent the last several years raising funds and conducting research for this purpose, and it was their goal to complete fund‑raising and receive a power upgrade before the expiry date of their current broadcasting licence in 2010, and they were optimistic that they would not be displaced from their frequency before achieving their goal.

8701     While CFBX is broadcasting at an unprotected frequency, I would like to correct the statement made by Evanov President Bill Evanov in written communication, that:

8702     "The frequencies or place on the dial for the community and college stations are considered temporary assignments and are limited to 50 watts or less."

8703     First, community and colleges stations are not limited to 50 watts or less, rather, only those with developmental or low‑power licences are limited to 50 watts or less.  A substantial number of campus and community stations across Canada also broadcast at levels above 50 watts, and therefore have protected frequencies.  Some of these stations applied for their broadcasting licences prior to the establishment of the developmental licence category; others have successfully applied for power upgrades after first receiving a developmental or a low‑power licence.  All of these stations required years of development work and fund‑raising by dedicated volunteers in order to apply for and receive any licence, low‑ or high‑power, and these stations continue to struggle, no matter what sort of licence they hold.

8704     Second, while low‑power frequencies may be unprotected, I suggest that for those stations with these frequencies, the long‑term goal is to become successful and permanent fixtures in their local communities and to eventually apply for a power increase when finances permit.  CFBX would have done so long ago if their financial situation had allowed it.

8705     I doubt there is a single low‑power community access station in Canada that intends to exist only temporarily.  Stations whose volunteers and staff go to the extraordinary lengths to build a station with minimal resources deserve recognition and support for their efforts and assistance so that they can continue to serve their communities and realize their goal to acquire a protected frequency.

8706     The NCRA feels that community‑based radio stations, such as CFBX, should be regarded as a legitimate and essential contribution to Canadian broadcasting and supported accordingly.  CFBX may be small, but they are not temporary or insignificant by any means, and it is important to recognize what would be lost by the community if they could not continue to exist.

8707     Station manager Brant Zwicker will speak after me, and he will provide more detail about the background and history of CFBX, their programming content, and local artist development initiatives, and the station's relationship to the Kamloops community.

8708     The issue here is not whether Evanov Radio Group can legally apply for the frequency currently occupied by CFBX, because they certainly can.  We are aware that with a low‑power licence, CFBX cannot expect a protected frequency.  But the issues are whether this is the best frequency for Evanov Radio Group's proposed new station, considering the multitude of additional open frequencies in the Kamloops area and whether the hardship that will no doubt be incurred by CFBX, if they are granted the use of 92.5 FM, could be avoided.

8709     If, due to geographical and technical considerations 92.5 is the best frequency for Evanov's new station and if their application is approved, an additional issue is whether the CRTC supports community access radio to the extent that it will take measures to ensure that the displaced station can continue to exist.

8710     Evanov Radio Group has said:

8711     "The 4.9‑watt CFBX‑FM is currently operating on 92.5 may not be the best use of the frequency."

8712     And:

8713     "A low‑power operation could be easily accommodated on a frequency such as 107.9 and others that may not be suitable for commercial undertakings due to NAVCOM issues."

8714     These statements may be correct, and we are allowing for that possibility.  Our main concern is Evanov Radio Group's statement that:

8715     "These issues would not affect CFBX‑FM in any material way."

8716     In fact, these issues would affect CFBX in substantial material ways, and I will outline those here.

8717     First, if displaced from their frequency, CFBX would have to submit a new application to obtain a new frequency.  This, as we know, takes time, many staff and volunteer hours, and money.  If the new Evanov Radio Group station receives approval and begins broadcasting as soon as its licence takes effect, CFBX may not be able to complete, submit, and receive approval for a new application by that time, which would lead to a period in which CFBX would not be broadcasting at all.  Not only would they now have to deal with the requirements of a new licence application, they would also have to deal with a possible loss of revenue and listenership during this time, and an extensive public relations advertising campaign to re‑establish their listenership at their new frequency.

8718     Since CFBX has already been preparing to submit an application for increased power, it would not be sensible for them to go through the application process twice, once to move to a new low‑power, unprotected frequency, leaving them vulnerable to being displaced again; and then again to increase the power and gain frequency protection.

8719     So if Evanov Radio Group's application is approved at 92.5 and CFBX has to move frequencies, it would make the most sense for them to pursue both a new and protected frequency at the same time.

8720     As I have explained, this process will require substantial time, resources, and money, with which I hope they will receive assistance.  In fact, the potential costs are staggering to a station in CFBX's position, and while they have been preparing, they are not in a position to cover any of the necessary costs immediately, and would be disappointed and further disadvantaged if they were forced to go off the air while dealing with this new unexpected hurdle.

8721     Aside from the costs of an engineering brief, a new high‑power antennae and transmitter, and the installation of this new equipment, which could be as much as $40,000, the station will also incur costs associated with producing all new promotional materials and signage to reflect their new frequency, so that their audience will be able to find them on the radio dial.

8722     These costs may seem fairly insignificant to a commercial radio group, but they are potentially crippling to any not‑for‑profit, volunteer‑driven organization that often struggles just to cover their basic operating costs.

8723     To give you an example of the scale we're dealing with, if the total cost reached $50,000, that would equal half of the total annual budget for CFBX.

8724     The NCRA believes that the three‑pillar broadcasting policy for Canada, as described in the Broadcasting Act, is in part enacted and fulfilled by the efforts of campus and community broadcasters.  These small stations epitomize many of the defining aspects of the Act in both mandate and legislation.  We feel strongly that not‑for‑profit community access radio stations at all power levels are providing an essential community service not provided by commercial stations, including providing direct air time to multicultural, Francophone, and Aboriginal groups; promoting Canadian and local talent; and offering highly diverse programs, not heard elsewhere on the radio dial.

8725     MR. LeBEL:  Excuse me, Ms. Zaltz.  Your time has expired.

8726     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Zwicker, are you going to be taking the full ten minutes for your presentation?

8727     MR. ZWICKER:  Probably not, no.

8728     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Then why don't you finish off.

8729     Do you mind if she eats into your time?

8730     MR. ZWICKER:  No.

8731     MS. ZALTZ:  Thank you.

8732     Jeopardizing the continued existence of stations like CFBX in effect jeopardizes the legislated mandate for the Canadian broadcasting spectrum.  It is necessary to address the role of community and campus stations, such as CFBX, in the spectrum, and the need to support these stations.

8733     The Evanov Radio Group has indicated that they are:

8734     "... willing to commit to devote our resources and expertise, both financial and technical, to help the campus station relocate on the dial without any undue hardship or loss of service to its listeners.  It is our intention and commitment to support CFBX in whatever situation should arise."

8735     They also promise:

8736     "If 92.5 FM is eventually selected as the appropriate frequency by the regulators, we will underwrite the technical costs and provide technical assistance to CFBX‑FM in relocating it to another available frequency.  This is a commitment we have already given directly to CFBX‑FM and to the CRTC itself, which we are happy to repeat."

8737     The NCRA does not have any problem with Evanov Radio Group broadcasting in Kamloops, but if they're granted a licence to broadcast at 92.5 FM, we would ask that their commitment be upheld to ensure that CFBX is able to cover all costs required to move to a new protected frequency, including those required to notify the community of this change.

8738     We also ask that adequate time be given for this to occur prior to Evanov Radio Group commencing their broadcast at 92.5 FM, so that CFBX is not forced to endure service interruptions.

8739     The CRTC has indicated in the past that it recognizes the importance of independent community‑based and student‑oriented radio stations, and now the CRTC needs to protect them.  There must be a mechanism in place to prevent unprotected secondary stations from the effects of large commercial applicants who could leave unprotected low‑power community stations without a frequency at all or, as we have seen in other locations, whose high‑power signals could interfere with low‑power community stations located nearby on the FM dial.

8740     This protection could be accomplished by a one‑time donation to be made by a commercial station on acquiring a licence or amending a licence to increase power in any market.  This donation should be made to any not‑for‑profit community access station whose signal is displaced by a new commercial broadcaster or affected by a commercial broadcaster's power increase.

8741     The NCRA would also like to remind the CRTC of our continued desire to see the creation and implementation of a CRTC‑mandated commercial radio fee that supports small not‑for‑profit stations, and we would like to stress the importance of developing a constructive relationship between for‑profit and not‑for‑profit radio stations, which requires that for‑profit stations understand and recognize the important role of campus and community radio stations in providing diversity in the Canadian broadcasting system.

8742     In closing, I ask the Commission to consider CFBX's request for support in the interests of their community listenership and irreplaceable service.  I also ask the Commission to consider the creation of mechanisms to protect not‑for‑profit community access stations from the adverse effects of commercial stations' growth and development in the interests of a diverse multicultural and strong Canadian broadcasting system.

8743     Thank you very much for your time.

8744     MR. ZWICKER:  Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, and Commission staff.  My name is Brant Zwicker, and I thank you for this opportunity to address the panel.

8745     I guess I'll edit on the fly here, as I may have lost a little bit of time.

8746     I currently manage campus radio station CFBX 92.5 at the University College of the Cariboo in Kamloops, British Columbia.  This is the institution that on April 1st officially becomes B.C.'s newest university, Thompson Rivers University.

8747     I was hired by the school's student society in early 1998 with the goal of building a campus FM station from the ground up.  Over the next two years, we were involved in every aspect of creation of the non‑profit radio operation, renovations to the radio house, acquisition and refurbishing of used equipment, studio construction and wiring, development of a volunteer roster, and so on.  I did spearhead that project, but a huge vote of gratitude is owed to many, many people and organizations:  The school itself, dozens of student and community volunteers, and in particular, Dave Coulter of NL Broadcasting, who did most of the studio wiring for us, are but a few of the people, and that's for their time, equipment expertise, and old‑fashioned blood, sweat, and tears.

8748     In early 2000 we commenced closed circuit, and I applied for the country's first campus developmental licence.  That was successful, and the FM phase was launched at 92.5 on April 2nd, 2001.

8749     In the years since, we have applied for and received a full campus licence, provided the local community with a great deal of creative programming, helped to bridge the gap between campus and city, and given local listeners a true alternative that's complementary, not adversarial, to the private and CBC outlets in the city.

8750     The one thing we have not managed to date, of course, is to increase our transmitter output beyond the original developmental level of 5 watts.  That's something that's due solely to the challenges of fund‑raising.  Naturally, this is something we want to do and have always intended to do in order to provide improved reception in the market to reach ever more listeners, and simply to protect ourselves and our position on the dial.

8751     Fund‑raising is almost complete, after well over a year's hard work, and we have initiated a study on one of several tower sites in which we might be able to co‑locate.  Depending on which site we engage, we will apply for an increase in power in the range of 150 to 500 watts, possibly more.

8752     CFBX, like most campus community stations in Canada, specializes in providing alternative programming, musical and spoken, in the marketplace.  The Kamloops station has approximately 95 active volunteers hosting shows every week.  About 120 in total, including substitutes and trainees.  These volunteers consist of students, high school and post‑secondary, university staff and faculty, and community members from every walk of life.  Their ages range from 17 to 77.

8753     Our programming consists of, essentially, virtually everything our commercial counterparts do not provide.

8754     On the musical side, we feature international programs from as many as ten different cultures and languages, jazz, classical, blues, folk, punk, stick, and many, many more.

8755     Our spoken word shows consist of topics ranging from addictions to spirituality.  Almost all of it is locally produced.

8756     Although its overall philosophy resembles that of other Canadian campus community stations, CFBX is quite unique, and I daresay, fairly good at what it does.  It certainly is distinct in the local market, and though our total audience does not rival that of any private broadcaster, of course, almost all of the feedback we've had has been positive, even passionate.

8757     The "X" has always been a strong supporter of local talent, musical and otherwise.  One of the station's crowning achievements in this area was the creation of "Focus," a fund‑raising CD of local musicians that had two goals:  To raise money for the station's power increase, and to promote these local artists in the city and at other campus and community stations right across Canada.

8758     Can I get a quick time check?

8759     MR. LeBEL:  You still have two and a half minutes.

8760     MR. ZWICKER:  Thank you.  I'll go double speed.

8761     When the official CRTC announcement of December 22nd, 2004, indicated that one of the applicants for a new Kamloops licence would be pursuing our unprotected frequency, we were taken by surprise and quite dismayed, both by the pursuit itself and the way in which it was initiated, without any apparent concern for us or the Kamloops market.  That applicant, of course, is the Evanov Radio Group, ERG, and I'm here today to protest this action.

8762     We at 92.5 do not oppose the licensing procedure as a whole because we do not compete with commercial stations.  My sole concern is the Evanov Group's decision to assume our frequency, and I have more than 880 e‑mail carbon copies in my inbox from CFBX supporters who concur.

8763     We have been aware since the start of our project that as a station generating low power, CFBX is unprotected from the kind of acquisition that the ERG is proposing.  However, there can be little doubt that numerous other frequency options exist on the FM dial in Kamloops.  There are currently fewer than ten FM operations in the city right now, and all three of the original applicants for this new licence made different choices.  I know, for example, that NL Broadcasting was advised that 92.5 was unprotected, therefore available.  The company immediately rejected that option and chose to apply for 103.1, as you know, instead.

8764     It is likely that that same opportunity was presented to both Standard and Newcap, but I strongly suspect that they too had major concerns about engaging in this kind of unnecessary action.

8765     It must be pointed out that the ERG made absolutely no attempt to contact us regarding its frequency plans prior to the CRTC announcement, even in the weeks after.  It was not until their plans made headlines in the local newspaper that the company began to backpedal and engage in damage control.

8766     I think I'm just about out of time, so I'll add one quick quote from one of our letter‑writers.  Dr. Jeff McLaughlin, university professor of philosophy who had interest in communication issues and business ethics says:

8767     "The way that the ERG has handled themselves is unfortunate but also unsatisfactory and should be met not only with a rejection but also with a reprimand, reminding them that the good of the community is one of the primary aims of extending radio frequency privileges, not rights.  Clearly the behaviour of this company shows that they wish to put their own wants above all others, including the needs of their potential listeners."

8768     In conclusion, I urge the panel either to render a decision unfavourable to the ERG or, should you award the licence to the group, to insist that ‑‑ or request that it seek a frequency other than 92.5.  If it should come to the point where we are indeed forced to find a new home on the FM dial, I would request that the Commission require the ERG to honour precedent and its own written commitment and compensate CFBX for all costs associated with a frequency move and the power increase that will be necessary to protect it from further issues of this kind.

8769     Thank you very much.

8770     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, and thank you for respecting the time.

8771     Mr. Zwicker, in the response of the Evanov Group, of course they indicate that if the CRTC approves their application, they will work with us and Industry Canada to determine the actual frequency to be used so as to minimize any impact on your station; and if they are awarded 92.5, then they will underwrite the technical costs and provide technical assistance to you in relocating to another available frequency.  So you think that's a reasonable position for them to take at this stage?

8772     MR. ZWICKER:  Yes.  I think the concern is there would be an extreme amount of hardship for us and, of course, costs.  And as long as that is covered, we would certainly ‑‑ quite frankly, I would prefer to stay at 92.5 and pay for our own power increase than to move and have somebody do it for us.

8773     THE CHAIRPERSON:  What do you reckon the cost of that power increase, all in, will be to you, as your current frequency?

8774     MR. ZWICKER:  We're probably looking at the range ‑‑ well, including, you know, all the signage and all that sort of auxiliary stuff, easily $40,000.

8775     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Forty thousand.

8776     MR. ZWICKER:  Easily.

8777     THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's the figure that Ms Zaltz ‑‑

8778     MR. ZWICKER:  Correct.

8779     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you would rather pay the $40,000 and stay where you are rather than have them move you to another frequency and to pay all ‑‑

8780     MR. ZWICKER:  Yes, I mean ‑‑ yeah, because we wouldn't have a lot of the auxiliary costs, obviously, if we stayed where we were, right?  We would just have the transmitter and that sort of thing.  We'd probably try and cut some corners here and there too, but ...

8781     Yes.  I would prefer that, yes.

8782     THE CHAIRPERSON:  But you haven't started the negotiations with Mr. Evanov on ‑‑

8783     MR. ZWICKER:  No.

8784     THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ itemizing those costs?  I know what your goal is.  I note Ms. Zaltz talks about protective frequency, and I think in your remarks you talked about the frequency move and power increase.  None of that is covered in the Evanov response, and we'll hear from them in reply as to what they are prepared to cover, so you know the contours.

8785     So your answer is that you think it's a reasonable position for them to take, even though your preference would be to stay at 92.5.

8786     MR. ZWICKER:  Yes, correct.

8787     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

8788     Commissioner Wiley?

8789     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Since this reply was filed, Ms. Zaltz, has NCRA or the station itself ‑‑ you, the station manager ‑‑ have you had any contacts with the Evanov Group to try to focus or perhaps get them to be more precise about what they are prepared to underwrite?  Has there been other communication since early in the year when the reply was made to the Commission and a copy sent to both of you ‑‑ well, to Mr. Schmidt, who, Ms. Zaltz, you represent today?  Has there been further talk of doing them?

8790     MR. ZWICKER:  No, there hasn't.  There was initially, shortly after ‑‑ it was around the 6th of January or so, after this hit the newspaper, the Evanov Group requested a meeting with our board.  This was late on Thursday.

8791     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Yes, I read that, yes.

8792     MR. ZWICKER:  And I tried ‑‑ I have nine volunteer board members, and I was not able to pull it together for that.

8793     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  But even without putting your board together, have either of you spoken to them since?

8794     MR. ZWICKER:  Not since, no.

8795     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Not since this morning?

8796     MR. ZWICKER:  No.

8797     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  To try to see how far they're prepared to go to help?

8798     MR. ZWICKER:  No.

8799     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Could it not be possibly ‑‑ I understand the problem with changing frequency.  It is an unprotected frequency, and some of it is Industry Canada on the decision ‑‑ our decisions always state that it's unprotected and therefore vulnerable.

8800     Is it not possible that if you should ‑‑ in case they are licensed on that, to establish some relationship with them that could get you an improvement in your situation, both now and for the future, at their expense, if there was cooperation between the two of you?

8801     MR. ZWICKER:  Well, they have committed to assisting us with a frequency change.

8802     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  No, but you haven't asked them what this means, is what I gather.

8803     MR. ZWICKER:  No, it is written ‑‑

8804     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Well, maybe we'll hear from ‑‑ well, the Chairman read what they said.  But my understanding is, you haven't negotiated ‑‑

8805     MR. ZWICKER:  No.

8806     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  ‑‑ anything further or tried to negotiate anything further until this morning, and maybe you'll have a chat before they come in reply.  Considering that you are not in the driver's seat, because you have an unprotected frequency, this could be an opportunity to improve your situation at their expense, could it not?

8807     MS. ZALTZ:  Can I make a comment?

8808     My understanding is that the station spent a considerable amount of time trying to understand why the Evanov Radio Group had changed their initial frequency in their application from a different one to 92.5, and they were so taken aback by the change that they spent quite a bit of time researching how the process works in terms of whether they could be denied that frequency and just given an alternate frequency, and so they were not particularly interested in negotiating a settlement because they felt that it might be more possible to insist that the Evanov Radio Group receive a different frequency rather than bumping the existing station from the frequency that they're at, and that's my understanding about why there wasn't negotiation about compensation before now.

8809     I'm not sure if that makes sense but ...

8810     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Thank you.

8811     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you both.  We'll break now and resume at 11:30.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1130 / Suspension à 1130

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1140 / Reprise à 1140

8812     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please. À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

8813     Mr. Secretary, would you please call the next item.

8814     MR. LeBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

8815     The next two interventions will be presented by Maureen Simpson and Grant Porter.

INTERVENTION

8816     MS. SIMPSON:  Good morning, Mr. Dalfen, fellow Commissioners.  Thank you for the opportunity to speak today.

8817     My name is Maureen Simpson.  I was born and raised and Kamloops and have lived there most of my life.  I am a retired high school counsellor.

8818     I have three sons in their late 20s, one daughter‑in‑law, and 1.8 grandchildren.  The new baby is due in April.

8819     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I've got two coming in March, two grandchildren.

8820     MS. SIMPSON:  Oh, good for you.

8821     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I can relate.

8822     MS. SIMPSON:  I am speaking in support of the Evanov Radio Group application to operate the Jewel FM station in Kamloops.

8823     When preparing to make this presentation, and because I have no experience with the inside workings of radio, I thought it might be interesting to find out what the Broadcasting Act had to say about this process and the issuing of radio licences.  I was pleased to discover many items that spelled out what should be offered on the public radio frequencies.

8824     I had also realized that the application of the Evanov Group for this FM licence meets many of the recommendations in the Act.

8825     Specifically, the Act suggests programming should serve the needs and interests and reflect the circumstances and aspirations of Canadians.  It should be varied and comprehensive, providing a balance of information, enlightenment, and entertainment for men, women, and children of all ages, interests, and tastes; and it should encourage the development of Canadian expression by providing a wide range of programming that reflects Canadian attitudes, ideas, values, and artistic creativity, and by displaying Canadian talent in entertaining programming.

8826     I'm sure all of you know all of this, but I didn't know it before I had read it.

8827     I believe the Jewel FM proposal will meet the needs, interests, and tastes of a particular age group that is currently underserved in Kamloops, the 45‑plus age group, to which I obviously belong.

8828     When I looked at the proposed playlist for the Jewel, I was surprised that I was familiar with about 80 percent of the artists named.  I couldn't say the same for what I listen to on radio stations in Kamloops right now.  These were voices that I had grown up with in the '50s, '60s, '70s, and that I remembered with fond attachment.  I would love to be able to listen to them on a regular basis on the radio.

8829     As for taste, easy‑listening music is not everyone's music of choice, but it is enjoyable and inoffensive to almost everyone.  It has a wide appeal because it is gentle, invokes a feeling of relaxation and pleasure, and provides a softer sound for listening.  The artists come from many eras and have earned respect and endearment over the years.  Their music brings back memories and provides the perfect backdrop to relaxed living.

8830     The Jewel's promise of 40 percent Canadian content and programming that specifically focuses on new, local, and regional artists is also attractive to me.  I believe we need to support and provide a venue for new performers.  For instance, the folk and roots segment, the Canadian spotlight, and the plan for a web‑based catalogue of Canadian instrumental music demonstrate what the station's commitment will be.

8831     Other parts of the programming that I will particularly enjoy are the community calendar, theatre and arts report, health watch, and book of the week.  All of these segments are geared to the interests of the people who are at or near retirement, with grown children, and time to sit back, relax, and enjoy life.  Especially the grandchildren.

8832     I have read the market analysis in the Jewel's proposal, and have to admit that I do not know much about the terms used, so I didn't understand much of it.  However, one thing that did make sense to me is that there are a lot of people in the 45‑plus bracket who have some money to spend, and there are probably a lot of businesses who would appreciate the opportunity to advertise directly to these people.  The Jewel could bring these two facets of our local economy together.

8833     I also believe that having a new company come in to the Kamloops region would provide more employment opportunities for Kamloops residents interested in a career in radio.

8834     Some people have commented that we don't need Easterners taking over our radio frequencies.  Personally, I welcome the infusion of fresh ideas, a different point of view and a healthy dose of variety into what is right now a very similar‑sounding musical landscape.  We don't need to consolidate all of the influence of radio into the hands of a few owners.

8835     I think it would be good for Kamloops to have a radio station with contacts in Toronto.  We might learn a little more about the rest of Canada.  It might encourage us to be a little less provincial in our thinking, and it will certainly give us the opportunity to hear a different outlook on national issues.

8836     The Jewel concert series that are planned will provide live entertainment from across Canada, and the Toronto connection will make it possible for us to hear new Canadian artists that otherwise might never make it across the Rockies.

8837     As a member of the advisory committee for the Jewel, I have been impressed with the level of involvement that the management team has displayed in working on this application.  They arrived in Kamloops in the middle of the worst snowstorm we had in January, driving over the Coquihalla to spend a week, making personal contact with the people they hope to serve.  Booths were set up in a local mall and a hotel downtown to provide information, explaining to the community what the Jewel was all about.  Personal visits to businesses were made to raise awareness, gauge the level of support for this format, and to invite potential advertisers.

8838     I spent about four hours at the mall myself talking to interested shoppers.  Of the 20 or so older couples that I spoke to, only one told me they wanted a new country station in Kamloops.  The rest were very interested in the easy‑listening format.  Several offered to write letters of support.

8839     When we met with the management team, they wanted to know about us.  They asked us what we thought Kamloops needed in the way of radio programming.  They were actively seeking local input and information to enhance the ideas they already had in place.  I believe this process will continue after the licence has been granted, and the Jewel team will continue to be open to suggestions from the community to make the station a lively part of life in Kamloops.

8840     A concern was raised over the choice of the 92.5 frequency because the UCC community radio station is currently using it.  Mr. Evanov's response was to meet individually with the college radio representatives, explain why the frequency was chosen, and discuss how he could support their move to another frequency, if that becomes necessary.  He offered to meet with the board, but that meeting could not happen in January.  He guaranteed engineering and financial support to make the move and even suggested he would accept a licence to use a different frequency if the Commission made that decision.  He indicated to them that if the Jewel is granted the licence, there would be room at the station for college students to become interns, gain work experience, and participate in other ways at the station.

8841     Again, I was impressed with the flexibility and generosity displayed in trying to solve a difficult problem.

8842     Finally, I want to say that Kamloops needs and deserves a mature radio station.  We need the choice offered by the Jewel format.  If the survey done last August is an indicator of interest for the whole city, then 80 percent of the over 45 age group have spoken in favour of the Jewel becoming part of the Kamloops radio scene.  That is a powerful statistics to guide you in your deliberations.

8843     Although I am only one voice here, I think I represent many of the people in that group, and I encourage you to grant the FM licence to the Evanov Radio Group to operate the Jewel FM in Kamloops.

8844     Thank you.  I would be happy to answer any questions that you have.

8845     MR. PORTER:  Good morning, Mr. Dalfen and fellow Commissioners.

8846     My name is Grant Porter.  I have lived in Kamloops since 1998, and I am a music therapist who works primarily with seniors.

8847     I strongly support the application by the Evanov Radio Group for the Jewel in Kamloops.  I am one of those boomers who has recently turned 50, and I think there are a number of compelling reasons why this proposal should proceed.  My understanding is that many of these have been previously articulated.

8848     I am in strong agreement with the format of the various programs offered and the need for such a station in our community.  I feel that my music therapy experience has given me a somewhat unique perspective into the needs of seniors, and my main reason for wanting to intervene at this hearing is to advocate for seniors.  For those who will soon become seniors, as the adults now considered the target demographic by the Evanov Group begin their slow march to old age in the coming decades, it is important to consider the long‑term implications of a new station in our community, as well as the present situation.

8849     In my work with seniors, I often employ music that could have been taken directly from the Jewel playlist.  For example, in a music and movement group, I use music by Frank Sinatra, Andy Williams, Perry Como, Johnny Cash, Peggy Lee, Tennessee Ernie Ford.  The seniors are absolutely delighted to get a chance to re‑experience music from this era that has been important to them, and it has important therapeutic benefits for them, such as memory stimulation and social contact with their peers.

8850     The power and significance of these musical experiences for these seniors cannot be underestimated, and I believe there are some trends about the senior population and characteristics about seniors that should be considered.

8851     Again, I don't have any marketing research to back me up; it's just sort of my little perspective here.

8852     My understanding is that the population of seniors in Kamloops is growing, as retirees from the Lower Mainland sell their homes and move to Kamloops, an excellent location for retirement.  The government of British Columbia is currently stressing deinstitutionalization of seniors and increased supported independent living.  Also, one new long‑term care facility has opened and two new seniors housing complexes are currently under construction.  Many of these seniors live alone or will live alone and are in need of community contact.

8853     In preparing for this hearing, I have been asking the seniors I work with if they listen to the radio, and the most common response is that they don't.  Common reasons given are that they don't recognize any of the music, that there is nothing of interest to them, or that they cannot understand what is being said on the radio because the announcers speak too quickly.  Seniors require gentle programming, they process information more slowly, they require more repetition.

8854     It seems to me, anyways, that radio in Kamloops that is targeted towards an adult population is going to meet with a more gentle presentation that would speak more directly to the needs of these seniors.  Those that I have spoken to about this proposal, and this includes seniors and families of seniors and the people that provide care for them, all are quite positive in their response; and on a personal note, the programming elements detailed in the Jewel ‑‑ the news, information, business, leisure, community events, theatre and art reports, health, and the book‑of‑the‑week feature, the promotion of Canadian artists and local artists ‑‑ they would all be very welcome.  There could perhaps even be a feature for seniors, maybe like a weekly or a daily little seniors' corner, you know?  I think there's a need for that sort of thing.  I think that seniors are often forgotten, and I think that this station could really meet that need.

8855     Much of what has been presented discusses the profitability and business aspects of this proposal, which I think are positive.  I am, however, most excited at the prospect that there would be a station to meet the needs and provide a strong community service for a vulnerable and growing population in our community.

8856     Thank you.

8857     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

8858     Commissioner Pennefather.

8859     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Ms. Simpson, your presentation is quite clear.

8860     First, I'd like to thank you for getting my two granddaughters on the record, since the Chairman did, and I was just noting that you have retired from education.  I thought perhaps you might want to get back into a broadcasting course, the way that you have presented.

8861     Just very quickly, you've been in this community all your life.  Is it your sense that in the next few years there's growth in the community?  You heard the conversation this morning.

8862     MS. SIMPSON:  I did.

8863     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Give us your perspective on that discussion, on Kamloops as a market and as a community.

8864     MS. SIMPSON:  Well, I have some firsthand information that might answer your question.

8865     We live in a cul‑de‑sac in a mid‑economic‑standing part of the community, and two houses went up for sale last spring.  Both of them sold for over the price that they were advertized at.

8866     I have two children who are currently in the housing market, and we talked to them just last night, as a matter of fact.  They both had offers on places, and both of them lost out because people came in with higher prices than the houses were advertized at.

8867     It is obvious to me that either they're not building enough houses ‑‑ but there is a need for sure because the real estate market is hopping right now.

8868     From the school point of view, I was aware of the fact that the number of children in our school system was dropping in Kamloops.  Certainly it has put stress on teachers for a number of years.  But I am aware of the fact that the demographic in Kamloops is growing older.  So it's not that the population is dropping so much but that it is changing, and I really believe that there is lots happening in Kamloops that indicate that we are growing.

8869     I was a little distressed with Mr. Arnish's picture of Kamloops, because if there was anyone here thinking of moving there, they wouldn't.  I don't see Kamloops that way at all.

8870     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you very much.

8871     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for your presentations today.

8872     Mr. Secretary?

8873     MR. LeBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

8874     The next three appearing interventions will be presented by George Evans, Nancy Greene Raine, and Leslie Brochu.

‑‑‑ Pause

INTERVENTION

8875     MR. EVANS:  Good morning, everybody, Chairman.

8876     My name is George Evans.  I'm the owner of River City Nissan, a Kamloops automobile/truck dealership.  I presently serve as the President of the Automotive Dealers Association in our city, and I'm also active in community affairs.

8877     For example, when the forest fires struck our area in the summer of 2003, I initiated, then chaired, the North Thompson Fire Relief Fund that raised in excess of $5 million to help those people who were affected, losing homes, businesses, and livestock.

8878     In that project, I had the opportunity to witness firsthand NL Broadcasting's responsiveness to the tragedy when we started the fund with their encouragement.  We went on to play a large part in creating awareness for the fund‑raising success we were to achieve.

8879     For my efforts, I am proud to say that in two weeks I will be honoured by the provincial government with British Columbia's top community service award along with 33 other residents of the province.

8880     NL Broadcasting has already received Kamloops' highest recognition, when it was named our Corporate Citizen of the Year for its involvement.

8881     Just to outline a little bit, the whole aspect of community comes from your association with other businesspeople and those kinds of things, so, you know, it's very important to establish those.

8882     My contact with NL Broadcasting station Radio NL 610 AM and 97.5 The River has been a satisfying association, both with my community work and as an advertising client.  I am therefore pleased to appear today to support their efforts to bring a country music station to Kamloops.

8883     On the afternoon when the competing broadcaster in Kamloops dropped the country music format from one of their stations and switched to a variety of pop hits, by coincidence, I was in the NL studios recording a commercial for my dealership.  Hearing about the loss of the music, I expressed to Robbie Dunn, NL's owner and general manager, that the company should start a station to cater to the country music fans because, as was quoted earlier by their general sales manager, I need a place to sell trucks.  Albeit we're a Nissan dealership, we now have a full‑size truck called the Titan that competes head on with Dodge, Ford, Chrysler, and General Motors, and I'm taking orders today.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

8884     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We've all got our offers in already.

8885     MR. EVANS:  Okay, good.

8886     But it is very important to have an avenue or a venue to sell that vehicle to, and it is becoming a very exciting vehicle for us to sell.

8887     Having started the ball rolling towards this day, I haven't changed my mind on the need for the station NL has proposed because the dealers in our community are without a targeted method of reaching a large number of truck purchasers.  Since the country format was lost, I did cut back my spending on the station that dropped the music, B100‑FM, and increased it on Radio NL AM as I felt that was where most of the country music fans would migrate.

8888     Please give strong consideration to licensing NL Broadcasting for this service, as I would not want to see their AM station hurt, should you select the other applicant.  It is my feeling there is more likelihood the audience for the new station will come from CHNL than any other local station.  I have some real thoughts on that too.  When I try to advertise a truck right now, because a lot of the people that ‑‑ whether it's news‑related or the older type radio stations or whatever, because there is no country, that's what they listen to, rather than the alternative rock and whatever.  So that's the one I choose to advertise my trucks, my Frontiers and those kinds of things.

8889     I've seen the outstanding job their news team does covering events in our area ‑‑ not just the wildfires, but everything that is going on in the community, and would not want to see their company penalized.  We need CNHL's strong news presence, and that could be maintained if they were given the opportunity for the new FM station.

8890     I would just like to add that it wasn't only Radio NL that helped out for me to advertise the relief fund when I started it.  But I'll tell you, when I was doing the commercial and I made the suggestion of starting this, Robbie Dunn personally agreed to help me write the press release, helped me name the fund, and when he did the press release, there was not one word about Radio NL in it.  It was done in a totally non‑self‑serving fashion, and he put it on the wire.  He could have taken ownership to it, but because of their community involvement, he left it wide open for all the media to be involved.

8891     I also hope you'll licence Radio NL because it has demonstrated a terrific sense of community and operates with a great deal of pride.  The owners of the company are all long‑time Kamloops residents, understand the market very well, and have established credibility that will assist their new station in being viable from the start.

8892     The one thing that us, as the car dealers in Kamloops, hit for every single month is shop local, deal with your local people, and try and make sure you do that.  I do that in my business wherever possible.  I don't go outside the city because I want to support the people that are there, and I think local ownership is a must.

8893     The other thing that I'll just add here, they were one of the only stations that really responded when I went to them about advertising out‑of‑market competitors, and we, as the car dealers, said, "You know what?  You can't do that.  We need to drive the people here."  And when I arrived in Kamloops, when I opened the dealership, we had nothing but people going elsewhere to shop and buy their vehicles there.  And after a lot of meetings, they do everything that they can legally to make sure that the opportunities are given to the local businesses in order that they stay supported.

8894     Speaking as a businessperson, licensing NL seems to make the most sense since they have local synergies already available that mean all the station decisions, programming, commercial production will originate in Kamloops.

8895     I'll just make a note that their production people, when I do my commercials ‑‑ I did an awful job this morning.  The guys would kill me.  But they make me sound like a professional, and that's very important if you choose to advertise your own business with your own voice.  And they take the time.  If it takes 20 minutes, a half an hour, an hour ‑‑ they take the time to make me do it right.  That's very important.

8896     I note that Standard Radio is proposing to have commercials for local advertisers like myself written and recorded at their centralized headquarters in Kelowna.  That city is a long distance from us, which means the writers and producers won't have a familiarity and contact with our market that we require as advertisers.  Quite frankly, if it was in Kelowna, I wouldn't deal there.  I need to have that constant contact with people who know my business.

8897     I feel that should you licence Standard, they will be at a severe disadvantage in trying to scare local Kamloops advertising.

8898     I favour granting the licence to NL because of their local ownership and know they would receive good support from car dealers because of it.  I just question on the thing ‑‑ first of all, I want to outline one quick thing here before I run out of my time, and I don't know how I'm doing.  Five minutes?  Oh, good.  Okay.

8899     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You don't have to use it all up, though.

8900     MR. EVANS:  Pardon me?

8901     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You don't have to use it all up.

8902     MR. EVANS:  I'd just like to outline something.  For me, I operate on very high morals in my business and in my personal life.  I'm a little bit uncomfortable being up here because the last person in this room to purchase a vehicle from me was the President of Jim Pattison Broadcasting, Rick Arnish.  I respect that.  But for me, I feel that a country station is really a viable opportunity for us.

8903     I myself have ‑‑ you know, if you take the demographics of radio, and somebody can maybe quiz me a little bit more on it, a very good friend of mine is Bruce Allen.  He's the manager of Loverboy originally and BTO, Bryan Adams, Ann Murray, Martina McBride, and currently Michael Buble.  If you take that, there's only one reason a very, very smart, brash man like him does that, is in all markets, and they all have different levels of success, and I think it's important to look at that in each market.  Which stations can accommodate what music?  Well, NL could probably accommodate the Frank Sinatras and the whatever without a lot of upheaval.  But the other ones, you know, can't really go with the country format.  One tried it and gave it up.  So I think that point is probably made there.

8904     The idea about the ‑‑ I guess you would call it the financial or the economic condition of Kamloops, I don't know, but I'd have to agree with the lady before me, if I was talking to Rick Arnish and going to come and open my dealership, like I did four years ago, I wouldn't be moving there.  And I can tell you that, having been in the automobile business for 32 years, never done anything else ‑‑ I actually spent eight years of my life with the Pattison Group.  I know Jimmy Pattison very well ‑‑ I can tell you that I have never seen the consumer confidence stronger in the automobile business in my entire career than I see it right now, albeit very competitive, and I think whoever I should thank upstairs, that when they appoint car dealerships in a town, that you don't have to do it this way.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

8905     MR. EVANS:  We, in our situation ‑‑ and they do it in their own boardrooms ‑‑ but we, in our situation, believe that competition breeds business.  You have to get sharper at what you do in order to be able to perform at a level.  And it makes a lot of sense to me, albeit that they're going to have their own deejays and their own news guys and whatever, if you can take your fixed expenses, like rent, light, heat, and amortize, and accounting staff and those kind of things in order to make your business viable, that's what you need to do nowadays.  Streamline, streamline, streamline.

8906     I think the financial success of a station would be much greater in giving it to one that has a local presence, that already has the infrastructure and hard things done.  I think that's very important.

8907     I hope there's a lot of questions because I have a lot more to go, but the red light came on.  Was that a goal?  I heard some guy had the Hockey Night in Canada thing on his phone when he was turning it off.  It doesn't exist anymore, you guys.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

8908     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Which of you is speaking next?

8909     MS. GREENE RAINE:  I can say good afternoon now, Mr. Chairman, and Madam Vice‑Chair and members of the Commission.  It's just after noon.

8910     My name is Nancy Greene Raine and I've been involved in skiing for many years.  As an athlete in Whistler for its first 25 years, and for the past ten years at Sun Peaks Resort, which is just outside Kamloops.  I'm the Director of Skiing at Sun Peaks, a promotions and public relations position.  My husband and I operate Nancy Greene's Cahilty Lodge, a 190‑room condominium hotel in the resort.

8911     In just over ten years, Sun Peaks has become a year‑round destination resort, drawing visitors from across Canada, the U.S., and overseas.  Sun Peaks is now into the second phase of a four‑phase master plan that started in 1993, and there's no doubt that the development is providing a significant impact on the Kamloops economy.

8912     Approximately $450 million has been invested to date at the resort, including ski access to three mountains.  Our award‑winning village and surrounding vacation homes now provide accommodation for over 5,000 visitors and residents.

8913     The total estimated value of Phase II, which has just begun, is more than $285 million, and by the time the approved master plan is completed, there will be skiing on a fourth mountain and accommodation for over 20,000 people.

8914     This is a long‑term project and we'll grow as the market grows, and the projected growth of Kamloops is a big part of our future.

8915     Businesses in our resort currently hire over 500 people year round, plus another 700 people seasonally.  This does not include the construction crews working on the many development projects; over 300 men working last summer.

8916     Skier visits at Sun Peaks last year were over 300,000, a 15 percent annual growth since the early '90s, and the resort generates over $50 million a year in revenue.

8917     This summer, the second nine holes of our golf course will be opened, adding to our many year‑round recreational amenities.  Sun Peaks' competitive advantage is the same as Kamloops:  It's its location.  Being on the most popular summer tourism route in Canada, halfway between Jasper and Vancouver, we attract bus tours and stopover visitors from around the world.

8918     Tourism Sun Peaks' marketing efforts are extensive.  We focus on our primary markets in B.C., the U.S. Northwest, California, and Eastern Canada.  We've also developed markets in Australia, New Zealand, Germany, and the U.K.  In the next five years, we'll continue to develop all of these markets, while exploring further opportunities in areas such as Europe, Japan, Taiwan, and Korea.

8919     Fortunately for Sun Peaks, customer satisfaction is very high, and much of our success has come due to good word of mouth; the best kind of advertising.

8920     As you can see, Sun Peaks is a major tourism development.  What you might not appreciate is the impact it is having on Kamloops businesses that provide most of the services to the resort.  There is no doubt that the revenues from Sun Peaks will help stabilize the economy of our area for many years to come.

8921     When my husband and I arrived in Kamloops ten years ago, we quickly became aware of the presence that NL Broadcasting's two stations have in the community.  They contribute directly to the betterment of our region and are involved in many fund‑raising ventures.  For example, the morning announcers on CNHL lead the Terry Fox Run each year, and have raised in excess of $250,000 for cancer research.

8922     Both stations have direct involvement with the Royal Inland Hospital Foundation's pledge day, and that's raised over $3 million since it began 20 years ago.

8923     I've enjoyed appearing live on CHNL's morning show to promote the opening day at Sun Peaks each winter, as well as several other promotions they do to create more local awareness for Sun Peaks.

8924     I can also attest to the incredible job CHNL did during the wildfires in the summer of 2003.  On August 1st, the first major fire cut off power and telephone connections to Sun Peaks, and we relied entirely on Radio NL for information as to what was happening.  The NL staff and their station became our best source of information, for learning how we had to cope with the danger.

8925     At Sun Peaks we were impacted by three different fires for almost six weeks.  When the resort was finally evacuated in early September, NL kept in contact with myself, my husband, and other key personnel who remained at the resort, and they relayed us firsthand reports.  We were most grateful for their diligence in reporting status of the fires and in giving Sun Peaks' residents, who had been evacuated, the latest status on their property, and they did this not just for Sun Peaks, but for the other communities that were so affected by the fires around Kamloops.

8926     NL's actions during the wildfire crisis is a testimony to their devotion and understanding of our region.

8927     When the Kamloops area lost its country music station in August 2003, I was shocked.  I always appreciated not only the good country music, but also the ranching heritage of the Kamloops area.  I had the pleasure of taking part in one of the Kamloops cattle drives and meeting many of the ranching community.  I know they have missed having a station that caters to their interests and to their special information needs.  I'm very pleased that NL Broadcasting has reacted by proposing a radio station that will reflect the many aspects of western heritage synonymous with Kamloops.

8928     NL Broadcasting has proposed programming that is representative of the area's culture, including the Spirit of the West syndicated show.  It's hard to believe that this award‑winning show, which is produced locally and heard all across North America, has not been broadcast locally.  Our region has a rich pool of western talent which will flourish with the new station.

8929     In conversations with Kamloops residents, staff, and visitors, I know I'm not alone in hoping that NL's new station will be approved.  We really miss having a local country station.

8930     In conclusion, the local economy of Kamloops is growing due to the many exciting projects currently underway, including those at Sun Peaks.  There's a void in the marketplace for the type of radio station NL Broadcasting has proposed.  I'm confident NL will provide a service for the listeners that will properly reflect our community, since they have lived and operated radio stations here for many years.  Being local gives them an understanding of listener needs that no other applicant can appreciate.

8931     Finally, as Chancellor of the new Thompson Rivers University, I fully support, as does NL Broadcasting, the aspirations of our campus radio station CFBX‑FM.

8932     Thank you for the time you've given me.  I'm sure you've had a busy week, but if you have any questions, I'd be very pleased to answer them.

8933     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

8934     Ms. Brochu?

8935     MS. BROCHU:  Thank you.  Good afternoon, Commissioners.

8936     My name is Leslie Brochu, and I'm the Vice‑President of Marketing and Public Relations with Sun Rivers Golf Resort community just five minutes from downtown Kamloops, and I appreciate the opportunity to comment on the potential for a fifth commercial radio station in Kamloops broadcasting application.

8937     I feel qualified to give you these remarks today based on my background, which I will outline briefly for context.

8938     For 19 years, I worked for CMHC, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, in a number of B.C. cities, which required a strong working knowledge of the economy and housing markets, including the past, the present, and the insight to forecast with some confidence.

8939     I was transferred to Kamloops 15 years ago as the manager of CMHC, and for the last six years I've worked as the vice‑president of Kamloops' largest golf resort community development, Sun Rivers.

8940     I also initiated and serve as the Chair of the Marketing Kamloops Society, a privately funded group of business leaders that collectively understood the need for economic diversification in our market and the need to market our city as an attractive lifestyle destination for outsiders, a place in which to live, to work, and to invest.

8941     Having served as a director for the Canadian Home Builders Association for ten years, I am also the recipient of the President's Award for Outstanding Dedication to the Home Building Industry, an award that's issued only once each year in British Columbia.

8942     Last year I was also fortunate to be recognized as the Kamloops Businessperson of the Year for 2004.

8943     As you know, and as you've heard today, Kamloops is a growing city of 82,000 people, albeit somewhat slowly in the past ten years.  It acts as a major retail and trading centre for an area population of about 130,000 people, a role which is both historic and current.

8944     While we were in a down cycle through the late '90s, we've been enjoying good growth for the past few years, and all economic factors, combined with local business and political initiatives, point to strong growth and an economic upswing over the next several years.

8945     I represent a group of investors who have invested $30 million in equity over the past five years into the building of one of the finest golf resort communities in B.C. in Kamloops.  Combined with home purchases and other investors, the direct investment over the past five years in Kamloops from our company and assorted buyers is $50 million alone, with an economic spin‑off benefit over the past five years, which equates to about $150 million.

8946     We have 15 more years to go to build out Sun Rivers, and total investment in the Kamloops market over that period is estimated to be about a half a billion dollars.

8947     My point is that the strength of this commitment underlies an educated belief in the future growth potential of the Kamloops area.

8948     Over the last two years at Sun Rivers, lot and home sales have been very strong, and we see this trend continuing into the years and beyond, not only for us but for other projects throughout the city.  The number of dwelling units constructed doubled in 2004 to 534.  That's not all that encouraging, but the projections are very encouraging.

8949     For 2005, the city is currently processing development applications comprising some 858 lots, with other development proposals on the table.  To put that number in perspective, it is slightly above what was brought to the market in the past seven years in total.  Yes, we have been in an economic downturn, but we are poised and at the threshold of strong growth.

8950     When our project at Sun Rivers is completed in approximately 15 years, Sun Rivers will be home to 5,000 people, 50 percent at least of whom will have come from markets outside of Kamloops.  The community will be complete with 2,000 homes, a vibrant village centre with boutique shops, golf villas, clubhouse, and resort hotel.

8951     New home construction is a critical component of the growth of the Kamloops economy.  You've heard from Nancy about the growth at Sun Peaks.  All of this activity means increased employment opportunity, in‑migration, and growth in the area for many years to come.

8952     We all know the baby boomers are aging, and Kamloops is becoming known as an opportune location in which to relocate because of the climate and easy access to services, to southern and northern British Columbia, but particularly to the Lower Mainland.

8953     Further stabilizing our economy is the national transportation infrastructure that is almost unique in Canada.  All major highways in the province connect in Kamloops.  Kamloops is the meeting point in B.C. for our two national railways, and this has resulted in major industry locating here because of the access, giving our economy a solid base and growth opportunity for new business.  In fact, a January Canadian Business Magazine survey named Kamloops as the 14th best place in Canada to start a business.  We're pleased with that status.  Local business leaders, politicians ‑‑ we're all aiming to be number one.

8954     With this bright economic future, Kamloops also enjoys a unique relaxed western lifestyle due to our heritage, where ranching has been a major industry since the 1800s.

8955     In our marketing Kamloops' efforts, we have noted people move to our city to enjoy the western flavour set amongst sage, sand dunes, and rolling grasslands.  That's why we've incorporated the western theme into the image at Sun Rivers.  Our new $2.5 million clubhouse is designed after an historic ranch house and is being decorated in elegant western style, complete with reclaimed barn board.  The cart storage building is unique in that it mimics a large stable with eight stable doors opening to bays housing 12 golf carts each.  Our restaurant menu is decorated with the cowboy golfer, who is also the mascot of Sun Rivers' annual signature golf tournament, the Western Classic.  This is a two‑day western theme golf event, featuring a barn dance with local western entertainment, lasso and hay bale contests on the golf course ‑‑

8956     THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's plenty of content.

8957     MS. BROCHU:  Okay.  You got the picture?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

8958     MR. BROCHU:  A natural link to the lifestyle is the format proposed by NL Broadcasting, with its proposal of providing a wide variety of country music and special features that capture the essence of life in the Kamloops region.

8959     I have read their application and the supporting research material, and I find it to be very well‑thought‑out.  This is not surprising to me, since my observation of NL over the past 15 years is that they provide a very professional service with their existing stations and will undoubtedly deliver that with the new country station.

8960     I know the owners and the people of NL Broadcasting as an advertising customer and as a partner in community projects and promotions.  I feel the proposed station is more than a business project to them.  I feel it's a natural extension to the community they serve.  They are conscious this format appeals to a specific niche market that they have recognized the service is presently not available on local radio.  Our local heritage is synonymous with the proposed station, and they want to provide it for the right reason.

8961     NL Broadcasting is a sterling example of a good corporate citizen.  Their commitment to community wellness is evident in their respect for the community, its future, respect for their clients, and respect for individuals.  They and their staff are at the heart of helping to make Kamloops happen, and their local presence is important among other business leaders, service leaders, and service organizations.  Their reputation as a responsible and ethical broadcaster is unquestionable.

8962     Having worked on fund‑raising projects with NL Broadcasting over the years, I have the greatest respect for their professionalism, their ethics, and their vision to jump in on the ground floor with time and resources on community projects they believe will work over time.

8963     Like the patience they exhibit with community projects, I think the forecasts of the new station needing financial support from their existing station in its formative years is accurate, and this is where their vision will pay off.  NL Broadcasting will apply the same passion and respect they currently display to this new line of business, and combined with the positive impact on our community and their existing station support, this will give the station time to mature so it will become viable on its own.

8964     The people at NL are clearly proud of where they're headquartered, and I believe they consider providing the service as one of the ways they can return some of their past good fortune to a large segment of the population, while contributing to the community's future growth.

8965     I believe this new station is an opportunity for the entire Kamloops region to appreciate and capitalize on its unique western heritage.  There are a number of key local organizations promoting the western heritage of Kamloops, and we may finally have the right mix to catapult this unique identity forward.  The way in which NL Broadcasting has planned their commitment to the growth and support of our western heritage is a benefit to the entire market.

8966     In conclusion, from the growth I see happening in our city, a fifth radio station gives further evidence Kamloops is moving ahead.  We are ready for it now.  Myself, and many businesspeople I have talked with on these applications since the competition became public, are hoping you will licence NL Broadcasting, the people that have done well for our community in the past and will into the future, the one that we have confidence in to make this new station successful.  They deserve the opportunity.

8967     I look forward to hearing Country 103 FM, watching our market grow, and observing the increased appreciation of the western lifestyle.

8968     Thank you for the opportunity to appear today, and I'd be happy to answer any questions and sell you a house.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

8969     MR. BROCHU:  George gets you for the truck and I'll sell you the house.

8970     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Our failure to ask you questions only signifies that your presentations were fairly clear.

8971     I only have one question for Ms. Raine, and that arises from something that ‑‑ I don't know whether you were here when Mr. Arnish spoke this morning?

8972     MS. GREENE RAINE:  No, I wasn't.

8973     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I hope I'm answering the question roughly the way he presented it, but when asked about the impact that the 2010 Olympics would have, and since you've had a little Olympic experience, I thought you might be particularly interested.  I think he said that while he thought that there would be general uplift for all of B.C., that the major benefit would be the Lower Mainland and the Squamish‑Whistler corridor, and that Kamloops area might not be that much of a beneficiary of the activity.

8974     What would be your comment on that?

8975     MS. GREENE RAINE:  Well, I think that in terms of construction and mega projects towards the Olympics, definitely the benefits will be concentrated in the Lower Mainland.  But in terms of tourism development, we in the ski industry all across the province supported the bid very strongly, and we are absolutely convinced that during that Olympic year, the two million skier visits that normally flow to Whistler, a significant portion of them will sample the other B.C. resorts, as they have been doing slowly over the last ten years.

8976     Once they have found what we have to offer in the Interior with our dry snow and our hours of sunshine and warm hospitality, I can tell you, they don't always go back to the big one.

8977     You know, in the tourism business, we like to think of Whistler as being the engine that's driving the train, but sometimes it's nice to ride in the first class cabin just a little bit back.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

‑‑‑ Applause / Applaudissements

8978     MS GREENE RAINE:  I can tell you another thing, just as an aside, that an impact that Sun Peaks is having on the Kamloops region, and that is attracting absolutely top‑quality professionals in every profession, whether it's medical, legal, investment, and the university.  Because of the wealth of recreational opportunities, both in the summer and now in the winter as well, we're getting outstanding people moving to Kamloops, and this has really had an impact on our city.  We have lots of good orthopedic surgeons there now.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

8979     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm glad I asked you the question.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

8980     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen, for your appearance.

8981     Mr. Secretary?

8982     MR. LeBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

8983     The next appearing interventions will be presented by Sarah Nelems, Nina Durante, Joanne Gurney, Jolene Landygo, and Ron Irving.

‑‑‑ Pause

8984     THE CHAIRPERSON:  It's your choice as to who you wish to begin.

INTERVENTION

8985     MS. NELEMS:  Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission.

8986     You'll be pleased to hear that I will be brief.  I have nothing to add to the economic debate of the outlook for Kamloops, and I just want to point out that we also have great orthopaedic surgeons in Kelowna, Nancy, so more on that point later.

8987     Good afternoon.  My name is Sarah Nelems, and I'm the Executive Director for the Kelowna General Hospital Foundation.

8988     I would like to preface my remarks today by clarifying that I'm not here to announce a political affiliation with any specific media outlet or radio station; my mandate at Kelowna General Hospital Foundation is to work with all of the media outlets to further the goals of the foundation, and I'm proud of the work that we've done with everyone.  Incidentally, I would add that I would gladly accept an invitation from another media station with whom we have enjoyed a strong media partnership, such as Standard Radio, to help support them in any new business initiative.

8989     Having said that, an equally important aspect of my mandate as a development resource professional is also to appropriately reflect and acknowledge significant contributions by donors to our organization, both financially and in kind.  It is to this point that I am pleased to be here today to support Standard Radio's application in Kamloops.

8990     I am very proud to be associated with Standard Radio in Kelowna.  Over the last 18 months, they have been our partner in three critically important ways:

8991     1.  They have directly helped raise a significant amount of money for pediatrics at local hospitals throughout the valley, from Penticton to Kelowna to Vernon.  Since its inception a little over a year ago, the Standard Radio Have a Heart Radio‑a‑thon has become a well‑branded and annual fund‑raising campaign with great visibility in all three communities.

8992     The goal last year was $25,000 for vital neonatal medical equipment, and the 36‑hour blockbuster radio‑a‑thon raised nearly $100,000.

8993     The fund‑raised dollars, while critical to our work to provide additional resources for Kelowna General, was only one positive outcome of the radio‑a‑thon.  Overnight it seemed we had repositioned our KGHF brand as charity of choice and had inspired the general public as well as our own medical staff, doctors, and nurses to see our community partnership with Standard Radio as an extension of providing quality health care to thousands of patients in our community.

8994     We have also worked closely with Standard Radio to raise money and awareness for a recent campaign for youth at risk and Interior Health.  "180 degrees:  Changing Minds, Changing Lives" was an ambitious plan to help raise 20 percent of the capital needed for a new $5 million state‑of‑the‑art adolescent psychiatric unit facility at KGH to serve youth at risk throughout the Interior, and I'm proud to say we exceeded our goal by nearly 50 percent with the help of Standard Radio, editorially and also through public service announcements, which was critical to help destigmatizing issues surrounding mental health, as you can well imagine.

8995     We had code named the campaign "Crazy no more," and I'm pleased to say that Standard Radio did help to reach the donors, the general public, physicians and patients, who have already benefitted directly and will benefit for years to come with this new facility.

8996     A third way in which Standard Radio has served our community through the partnership with KGH Foundation is to provide support on the ground with their on‑air talent at our local auctions and charity galas.  I know Ray Grover brought down the house at our Heart of Gold gala, helping auction off cars, boats, jewellery, and the like.  Ray and Stuntman Steve's instantly recognizable voices and personalities helped ensure our gala was successful.

8997     In conclusion, I want to reiterate that Standard Radio delivered and literally put their money where their mouth is to help our local hospital improve its standard of care.  As the tertiary care centre in Interior Health and the biggest provider of acute care and residential care facilities between Calgary and Vancouver, Kelowna General is poised to grow dramatically.  We have a clearly articulated vision of becoming a teaching hospital with the advent of UBC Okanagan, and we are counting on Standard Radio's continued support to meet the ongoing needs of funding health care in this time of great expansion, and in so doing, they are setting a great corporate example for other media outlets, as well as other companies, to partner with charities to create additional equity in the not‑for‑profit sector.

8998     While I do not direct the hospital foundation in Kamloops, KGH Foundation is playing a leadership role within Interior Health, and I would gladly welcome Standard Radio's partnership with the Royal Inland Hospital Foundation in Kamloops to join the other three communities in the interior while we are already working together to raise much‑needed funds for children.

8999     I urge this Commission to weigh the valuable role that Standard Radio is playing to benefit the communities in which they work and operate, and I just would like to close with a personal epitaph, which I cannot take credit for, but really for me embodies the spirit of Standard Radio, and particularly, I believe, Don Shafer's vision for Standard Radio, which is:  "We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give."  Winston Churchill.

9000     Thank you very much.

9001     MS. LANDYGO:  I just want to say I'm really nervous.  I don't usually get nervous, so ...

9002     I just want to say good afternoon to the Commission.  My name is Jolene Landygo, and I am a local Canadian country artist.

9003     I am here to not just talk about my plight but also the plight of many Kamloops country artists.  I was born and raised in Kamloops, and I still live there.  I currently attend the University College of the Cariboo, taking a bachelor of science in nursing.  However, I would rather play music professionally.  That's my whole goal.

9004     I have been playing, singing, and writing country music for the past ten years and have been trying to be very serious about it.  I have attended the CCME's Country Music Week for three consecutive years, trying to make the necessary contacts to learn as much as I can to fulfil my dreams of some day having a career in country music.

9005     I have worked hard at learning exactly how the business of music works.

9006     I recorded a CD about five years ago that cost way too much to record and, unfortunately, I failed miserably.  Some may say that it failed because I didn't have the talent, but I still believe it had to do with a lack of support for local talent.  I felt there was no one I could go to in Kamloops to give it that first chance.

9007     The country FM station in Kamloops at the time had a certain standard of quality for airplay, and I was told that I didn't reach that standard.  I found that disappointing since I had just spent over $80,000 to reach that standard.

9008     All I can say is, thank god for my parents, and so much for my inheritance.  It's gone down the drain.  After this, the station, unfortunately, changed their format.

9009     About a year ago, I heard that a country FM station might start up in Kamloops.  Then about six months ago, I came across an ad in the Kamloops Daily News about a new FM station by Standard Radio, with a web site address where I could go to find out more information.  It said that they were applying for a new country station, and talked about all kinds of different projects for local and Canadian artists, and I thought, like, wow.  If Kamloops could get something like this, the opportunities would just be amazing, and not just for myself but other local artists that don't have a voice.

9010     So this gives us local artists a voice.  It lets us experience a stage show.  It lets us sit in a broadcast studio with an announcer and experience what it's like to be interviewed, because some of us never get the chance.  You're only going to stay at the local level, some of us.

9011     It helps us understand how to improve our performances.  It lets us know how other people think about our performances, other than our family and friends, who, of course, all think we're absolutely fabulous and we're going to make it to the very highest that we'll possibly make.

9012     It gives us a reason to try to be original.  It gives us exposure so that people get to know us so that we can get more people to our next show.  It gives us a reason for doing it.

9013     When I attended the hearings yesterday and heard one of you ask how their live concert series develops Canadian talent, well, that's how it develops talent.  As a musician, I can't stress how important it is to be able to hear yourself.  It may sound like something inconsequential, but to us, it's more than important.  It can be our catalyst to continue or go be nurses like myself.

9014     As a Canadian singer‑songwriter and country music listener, I am and always have been extremely loyal to the music, and I know many people who feel just the same as I do.  We're all extremely disappointed and, to tell you the truth, truly hurt, that Kamloops is no longer on the map when it comes to country music.  It is our life, and our lifeline has been cut off.

9015     My dream is to have a number one song on the radio or even have my songs heard on the radio, and as it is today, I feel I have no chance of ever achieving my dreams.  With the licensing of a country music station in Kamloops, it will at least resurrect my dreams.

9016     I have read all about Standard Radio's Canadian talent development plans and, quite frankly, I will be the first in line for whatever project I can get involved in.  My wish is that the very first CD they release is my second CD, Jolene Landygo.

9017     My parents and I obviously can't afford it anymore, and so I have to rely on assistance from organizations such as FACTOR or projects that Standard have proposed.  It's perfect for where I'm at in my development.  This could be the turning point of my entire life.  This is what I have been waiting for.  It's almost impossible to believe that it might even happen.  I have worked so hard with charity work, showcases, singing contests, songwriting contests because I believed and still believe in country music.

9018     To conclude, I believe in Standard Radio because they will give a new voice to the people of Kamloops.  New country music blood is what we need in areas so strictly formatted.  Standard is going to step out of the norm of broadcasting, and this will positively impact the community, by bringing back loyal listeners and local artists of country music.

9019     Thank you very much for listening to me, and have a great day.

9020     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

9021     MR. IRVING:   I'd like to say thank you, first of all, for the opportunity to speak.  My name's Ron Irving.  I'm a singer‑songwriter, recording artist, I'm a ‑‑ I guess I would call myself a lifer in the music business.  I've had probably a hundred songs recorded by artists all over the world, including people like Ann Murray and Michael Buble.

9022     I'm here today to strongly support a country station for Kamloops, and specifically, Standard Broadcasting's proposal.

9023     If you are to drive through Kamloops or walk around the streets, I think you'd see that if there ever was a country‑looking town, it's Kamloops.  Lots of people with cowboy boots and pickup trucks.  It's hard to imagine that there isn't a good country station there anymore, particularly with the Merritt Mountain Music Festival, which is just a huge event just down the road.

9024     I think it would be excellent to have a country station back in that town.  I think it would be great for local artists, I think it would be great for B.C. artists, and for national artists, and for artists that are touring for promoters that want to put on events.  You need to have that country station there to promote that event, and those concerts bring people in locally to go to the shows, but they also bring in people from the outlying areas, and they're going to stay in a hotel and they're going to go out for dinner and they're going to spend money in the community.  So I think it can be a positive thing for the economy.

9025     I was really impressed with Standard's proposal.  They're a national broadcasting chain, and they have a pretty hefty commitment to developing talent.

9026     Thanks very much for your ear.

9027     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Where are you based?

9028     MR. IRVING:  I'm based here in the Lower Mainland, but I've toured all over.  I've played in Kamloops many times.  I've played in the theatres there, opened shows for people like Don Williams.  So I'm all over the place.

9029     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

9030     Mr. Secretary?

9031     MR. LeBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  That does complete the list of appearing interventions; therefore, Phase III.

9032     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.

‑‑‑ Pause

9033     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Would the applicants appreciate a break at this point before final reply, or do they want to just proceed?  We'll be governed by you.

9034     Just keep going?  Who needs a break?  Nobody.  Okay.

9035     Well, let's proceed then, Mr. Secretary.

9036     MR. LeBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

9037     I will then ask NL Broadcasting Ltd. to respond to the interventions that were filed to their application.

‑‑‑ Pause

9038     MR. LeBEL:  You have ten minutes to respond.  Proceed when you're ready.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

9039     MR. DUNN:   Thank you, Mr. Secretary.

9040     Good afternoon again, Mr. Chair, Madam Vice‑Chair, and members of the Commission.  I'm Robbie Dunn.  I'm here with the team that we introduced to you earlier.

9041     We're here to reply to the positive and also the opposing interventions submitted at this hearing, both in the written and oral phases.

9042     I feel it is most incumbent upon me to reply to the interventions from Pattison Broadcasting, its various employees, their families, their unions, as well as from companies sharing ownership with them, Save‑On Foods, which was mentioned, and also Cooper Foods, which was mentioned in the Standard letter of intervention.  There are also interventions faxed by Pattison Broadcasting's head office on behalf of a few advertisers who buy time on their two FM stations and the three channels of television inventory that they all operate from the same building, and so will address them all together.

9043     The two essential arguments raised are:  The market cannot support a new station without seriously damaging Pattison's capacity to provide local service, and the market can't possibly support a country music station since they tried and they were unsuccessful.  The intervenors go as far in their economic arguments as to indicate that if a new FM station is granted, Pattison will have to cut local service and that they have even told their employees that positions will be cut.  It's unfortunate.

9044     Let's look at the arguments.

9045     You have heard from local businesspeople just recently here who have attested the buoyancy of our economy in Kamloops.  Multiple local construction projects, a growing university ‑‑ and Nancy was being very modest there today.  She was only appointed the Chancellor of Thompson Rivers University two days ago, and we congratulate her for it.  I don't think they could have picked a better person for it ‑‑ a constantly growing tourism industry, and a diversified economy all add up to sustained growth for our economy.

9046     On the 15th of February, the Conference Board of Canada, as you may have read in The Globe and Mail, revised its economic forecast for B.C. downwards from 2.9 to 2.7 percent.  Well, even at this level, that will produce the kind of growth that is more than enough to support our new station.

9047     We're surprised with the degree of pessimism that's coming from the Pattison Broadcasting people.  Over the past few years, Kamloops has seen the entry of a number of big box stores, such as Costco, Wal‑Mart, Home Depot, which is another signal of our city's growing importance to retailers.  As you well know, in many cities, when larger chains' stores like these move in, it is often accompanied by local stores going out of business.  But, in fact, Kamloops has the opposite experience.  As pointed out in our Phase I remarks, Kamloops reported the number of new business licences continues to climb while bankruptcies have decreased.

9048     Mr. Arnish, in his remarks, also made reference to Highland Valley Copper, and our economic study that was done by the Benchmark people addressed that issue, because we were also concerned about that.  There's a forecast that they may discontinue production in 2009.  However, the company has now stated that with the price of copper being at all‑time record levels, that they will re‑evaluate that and they will make a decision on that next year, and 2010 is now possible that they would carry on to.

9049     At the same time, as part of our economic study, we included a report from Highland Valley Copper that stated less than 2 percent of the current income in the community would be affected by that.  It's an approximate $412 decline.

9050     So with the other things going on in our community, the impact of Highland Valley Copper, should it even disappear, will be very minor and easy to absorb.

9051     You may have seen the other day in The Globe and Mail ‑‑ you might think I only read The Globe and Mail ‑‑ the other day in The Globe and Mail here in the hotel, "B.C.'s Booming," a full section on the entire province and what is going on in our province.  We're so excited about it, and this is just an indication to us of the kind of things that are going on right now and that we want to be a part of at NL Broadcasting.

9052     Pattison Broadcasting's pessimism really isn't supported by any research about our community, and it contradicts what most forecasters are projecting for B.C.'s economy.  In fact, here is a headline from the Vancouver Sun of June the fifth, titled "Optimism:  15,000 new jobs turn the B.C. economy red hot."  The province gained 15,000 new jobs in the previous month, according to the article.

9053     One of the most respected businesspeople in the province was quoted in the article stating:

9054     "We're encouraging our people today to spend more money in British Columbia than we have in ten years.  We see growth.  We see the opportunity.  We're enthusiastic.  And we're putting every dime we can into the province, thinking that we can get a reasonable return on our investment."

9055     Well, we at NL have a very high regard for the person who made those comments, and, in fact, we're inspired by them.  It gives us confidence that what we have proposed is timely and it's viable.

9056     But it strikes us at the same time as somewhat ironic that this quote is from Mr. Jim Pattison, while one of his companies is stating the opposite.

9057     The threats of reduced service and layoffs seem overstated, to say the least.  Surely Pattison Broadcasting has little to fear from us.  The combined radio and television newsroom of which they speak with obvious pride in their intervention not only benefits from all the synergies, sales, programming, promotional that this kind of joint operation brings, they also receive a hefty subsidy from the CAB Small Market Fund.  They received a total of $550,708.45 between July 2003 and August 2004, according to the CAB's report to the Commission posted on the CRTC web site.  As you well know, this amount is likely to increase as the DTH revenues increase.  And that's meant to specifically support local programming.

9058     We're confident that Pattison Broadcasting fully realizes the responsible response is to stay the course and draw revenues from their five advertising revenue streams, through the quality service and the good sales techniques that has been their practice up till now.  The resources of the Pattison Broadcast Group and corporate parent should help them cope with a country music station that serves a different demographic than their stations.

9059     It's been indicated the Pattison station tried country and they just couldn't make a go of it.  Well, our assertion, presented in Phase I, is that they instead decided to seek a younger audience by invading the market that our station, CKRV‑FM, served.  The format that they launched is a female‑oriented AC, and the BBM results show that their strategy has accomplished that goal today.  Share points for the Pattison station that abandoned country clearly came at the expense of our station, CKRV.  CKRV fell from a 12‑plus share of 21.4 to a 16.7 share in the Fall of '03, and an 11.1 share in the Fall of '04, as two stations now fight for that same market.

9060     Our research, that submitted by Newcap and Standard, the ratings that their country stations previously attained, the BBM diary comments referred to in our supplementary brief, and the community support for our application all underscore Kamloops' appetite for pure country music.  It's very evident that people are looking for a very broad‑based format.

9061     A powerful illustration that a pure country format such as we have proposed will be successful comes from Jeff Smith of Cactus Jack's Nightclub.  His letter of intervention outlines the impact on his country bar of diluting the country music programming and the subsequent return of business when he corrected that error in his establishment.  Basically, what has occurred is that the Pattison station B100, elected to go after a new demographic and discontinued service to the 22,000 listeners they had in the previous survey.  Somehow it just doesn't seem right that their company, that has such a large base of resources, which enjoys so many synergies in the marketplace, that drastically changed formats to appeal to a new, younger demographic, should now protest our attempt to service the people they abandoned.  No wonder that country music fan Melody Lowes stated in her intervention:

9062     "Please ignore the complaints from the other station and listen to the people of Kamloops.  Country music is a very important part of our western heritage, and there are many, many, many supporters in Kamloops for NL's application.  I am one of those supporters.  Please bring back country music to a very western ranching city.  If you feel concerned that our city is unable to support another station, take away B100's licence."

9063     Well, we won't suggest that you take Ms. Lowe's prescription, but we understand her frustration.  We believe Kamloops people deserve the diversity that our proposal promises.

9064     Jolene Landygo, who was just speaking here, we're very proud of Jolene as a Kamloops artist.  We mentioned her in our opening remarks, as you may recall, as an artist that we would feature on our station.  In fact, she's one of the up‑and‑coming bright young talents.  We have hired her for an event that we have going for Secretaries' Day in the past, and she was received with rave reviews.  Those are the kind of artists that we also wish to promote.

9065     Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, I'm sure you're tired after a long, intense week.  I'll wrap up, thanking the over 1,100 people who sent letters to you in support of NL Broadcasting's application.  They include every elected official in our community, prominent British Columbians, such as the retired Premier Dave Barrett, the City of Kamloops, the Kamloops Indian Band, heritage organizations such as the B.C. Cowboy Heritage Society and the Kamloops Cattle drive; country‑related industry associations, local associations representing large groups of businesses, like the Kamloops Central Business Improvement Association and the North Shore Business Association.  We've also received a number from cultural groups, such as the Association de Francophone of Kamloops.  We've also received a letter of support that was exclusive to us from Hugh McLennan, the voice of Spirit of the West.  They all tell you of the need for a radio station featuring a wide variety of country music, their wish that NL Broadcasting be the ones to implement it because of our track record of local service.  Many speak of their desire that this new station be locally controlled; all speak of our knowledge of Kamloops and NL's ability to serve it.

9066     Granting NL this licence is clearly in the public interest.  NL's track record is your guarantee that we won't disappoint.  We would be honoured to provide this service and accepting of the responsibility, and we thank you.

9067     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Dunn, ladies and gentlemen.

9068     MR. DUNN:  Thank you.

9069     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Secretary?

9070     MR. LeBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

9071     I will now ask the Evanov Radio Group Incorporated Inc. to respond at this time.

‑‑‑ Pause

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

9072     MR. EVANOV:  Good afternoon.  Mr. Chair, Vice‑Chair, Commissioners, Commission staff.

9073     We're here to reply to the interventions that oppose our application for a licence to serve Kamloops and to respond to comments that have been made regarding the market.

9074     First, let me begin by introducing my colleagues.  I'm Bill Evanov.  To my left is Carmela Laurignano, our Vice‑President, Radio Group Manager; and to my right is Debra McLaughlin, President of Strategic Inc.

9075     I would now like to begin by examining the concerns raised by intervenors about the health of the market.  In our filed application and in our presentation yesterday, we referred to the market of Kamloops as being healthy.  We base this assertion on publicly available data from sources like Stats Canada, Financial Post, Canadian demographics, the Government of B.C. Economic Development Agency, and Venture Kamloops, an organization dedicated to the long‑term economic development of the area.  All these sources agree on one point:  The economic future for the market is bright.

9076     For example, one of the key economic indicators, that being the cost of housing, is on the rise.  In '04, house prices increased by 12 percent, as migration from the Lower Mainland and Vancouver continuing; there are third party observations from national media, like Canadian Business Magazine, whose readers voted Kamloops as one of the top cities in Canada in which to do business; and then there are the projections of the B.C. government that predict that Kamloops will outperform the Canadian economy over the course of the next year with a GDP growth of 3.8 percent.

9077     Those are stats, those are forecasts, and they clearly suggest that the market is healthy and will continue to be so.

9078     That leads me to the issue of the PBITs that were introduced into the proceedings yesterday.  That they are below 10 percent is surprising but not necessarily telling.  The retail base is certainly there and the disposable income is higher than that of many markets.  So where are the profits?

9079     I can only suggest that some basic economic principles apply.  To improve profitability, you must either reduce expenses or develop market and sales opportunities.

9080     I cannot presume to speak for someone else's operating practices, but I do have firsthand experience in developing markets and creating new opportunities.

9081     I want to take you back years ago in Toronto when I ran a radio station called CHIN Radio for Johnny Lombardi.  In that year, it was in the '70s, and I was a very young man, Mr. Lombardi came to me, he said, "We're going to be out of business because there's a fellow down the street called Dan Iannuzzi who is going to apply for an ethnic television station.  And back in the '70s in Toronto, "ethnic" really meant Italian.  That was where the bread was.  He said, "You know, if they licence this fella, the CRTC, then we're going to be out of business because there's only so many dollars in the community."  So I panicked at the time and I believed this.  I felt, you know, there are only so many dollars in the community, and what will happen if this television station comes on with Dan Anuzzi, who also has an Italian newspaper?

9082     Before I carry on, out of due respect to Mr. Iannuzzi, he passed away recently, and he was a very honourable man to work with over the years.

9083     What had happened is, many of my staff gave me letters that I would be out of business or their sales would be cut in half and they'd lose their jobs or half their income.  We had probably three dozen businesses write letters to the CRTC to say that they could not increase their advertising budget, this was all they could do, so if they were going to do anything, they were going to split it.  I guess what happened here these last few days sort of reminded me of this incident.

9084     Let me tell you what happened, because I've really gone off the script to tell you this story.  In fact, what really happened, in less than a few years, the Italian dollars on CHIN Radio doubled, the dollars in the market were increased tenfold in that time period.  There was no massive, massive immigration from Italy at that time.  They had more or less come here.  But the television station was generating dollars from clients that we had never thought of going after that wanted to reach this particular market because of its size and that type of thing.  So we were able to take advantage of that, and as a result, the radio station grew.

9085     Now I've really lost my place here.

9086     Someone else said it too, I think the fellow that sold the trucks and I think the lady that sold the homes here today, intervening on behalf of one of the applicants, said it very nicely today, that competition is the life blood of a market.  Adding the Iannuzzi station in Toronto into a market that had stagnated because of such limited choices had the net result of improving the ethnic advertising pool.  I believe this will be the case in Kamloops, but it is contingent on choosing the right format.

9087     MS. McLAUGHLIN:  Concerns have been raised about the claim that there is a hole in the market.  In saying this, we are guided by a number of factors.  Overall use of radio in Kamloops has declined.  This is most evident in the older demographics, arguably the core users of the medium.

9088     From 2002 to 2004, the average hours spent weekly with radio dropped from 27 hours to 23.5 in 50 to 54‑year‑old homes, and from 21 in the 55‑plus group to 19.1.

9089     The explanation for this decline we believe lies in the satisfaction responses collected in our survey.  Over half of persons 45‑plus felt that there was little on radio they would like to listen to, 65 percent felt there was insufficient variety, and, most important, over two thirds felt they would return to the medium through increased listening if the programming they liked were made available.

9090     All of these findings point to a gap in service and the high levels of interest in the proposed format suggests that the Jewel would meet the need for a music‑intensive mature radio service.

9091     Finally, the last confirming set of numbers that addresses whether there is a hole in the market and, particularly, if the Jewel is the appropriate service to fill it, can be found on page 19 of the demand study.  In this chart, the services currently being listened to by the people who told us that they would listen most likely at the highest level to our station will form the core audience, they are listed in this chart.  These are the people who expressed the highest level of interest in the service and the highest levels of dissatisfaction with current radio choices.

9092     Only 26% of the core audience described a local service as being their favourite.  The proposal for the Jewel would draw listeners from outside services back to local radio.  This resolves two important issues:  There is, in fact, a gap in local service and, secondly, the proposal for the Jewel addresses it.

9093     Through its offering of news, sports, information and greatest hits, CHNL meets some of the needs of the 45‑plus market.  Attached to the presentation that you have before you is NL's own current lead sheet that shows how it promotes itself as news, sports, information, greatest hits, and its by‑line is, "News as it happens."

9094     MS. LAURIGNANO:  I would like to address the concerns expressed by the local campus radio station, and in particular, their preparation that our proposal for their frequency might threaten their very existence.  The Commission has all the paperwork on file, but I will give you a short chronology of the events.

9095     In September, we filed our application with an engineering brief for the use of 107.9.  In early December, our engineering consultant, Doug McCauley, received notice from Industry Canada that 107.9 could not operate on the proposed parameters because of NAVCOM issues.  Together with Industry Canada, he surveyed alternatives and advised us that 92.5 was available and would be suitable for our proposal.

9096     With regards to a possible issue that could arise with the LP currently occupying the frequency, Industry Canada suggested that 107.9, which is not suitable for the commercial radio station we were proposing, is more than adequate for an LP station and that the LP currently located on 92.5, operating at only 4.9 watts, could easily be relocated there or on any number of other places on the dial.

9097     We revised and filed our brief with Industry Canada and to you in December.  At the end of December, the applications were presented.  In the first week of January, we were in Kamloops meeting with the advisory committee, advertisers, and at that time we also sought a meeting with the campus radio station.  Through the station manager, we also requested in writing a meeting with the board of directors of the campus radio station to assure them that, should we be successful in getting the use of 92.5, we would underwrite all their costs in relocating.  This proposal also had the blessing of our advisory committee.  Despite our efforts to work it out with the station, they felt it necessary to mount an attack on our application.

9098     I'm here today, as we have said all along, to let the Commission, intervenors, and the campus radio station know that our offer still stands to help them relocate should we be successful.

9099     Finally, I would like to thank the members of the advisory committee who are listening today for all their hard work on this issue and for simply their help in furthering our understanding of the complexities of the Kamloops community.

9100     We would also like to thank Venture Kamloops, who made all applicants feel welcomed.  You've heard the name M.J. Cousins mentioned a few times here.  Her name is Mary Jane Cousins, and she's the same person who appears on our advisory committee as a member.

9101     In particular, we would like to thank the many advertisers, musicians, and businesspeople who examined what we were proposing and felt so passionate that they asked to intervene on our behalf.

9102     Thank you for your time, Mr. Chairman, Vice‑Chair, Commissioners, and Commission staff.  We have appreciated the opportunity to discuss the Jewel.

9103     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

9104     Commissioner Langford.

9105     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.  I rarely ask questions at this stage, but I was concerned by the impact on this community campus radio station, and you've been before me enough to know that I'm an old softie.  So these things just tug right at my heart.

9106     I wondered whether you had had a look at the Newcap frequency now that they're not in the game anymore?

9107     MR. EVANOV:  Yes, we did.  I will ask Carmela to speak to that because she examined it with our engineer.

9108     MS. LAURIGNANO:  Yes.  We looked at a number of alternatives.  I have to premise it that a full engineering study was not done.  This is in consultation with what is available in the public domain as well as what our engineer was able to garner.

9109     We looked at, actually, several frequencies, 103.1, 95.9, and 106.9.  The short synopsis for 107.9, which was what the Newcap was proposing, it requires the deletion of 106.7, which is an allotment from Logan Lake.  To ask that would have been a worse option because we would have left the community without an allotment, whereas we felt that in Kamloops here, there were other options for the campus radio station.

9110     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  What's the chances that Logan Lake is going to be so desperate for frequencies that they'll need that one?

9111     MS. LAURIGNANO:  Also compounding that problem is that there is an LP operation currently operating on 106.9.  So that would have meant displacing another LP in another community.

9112     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And Standard?  This is all hypothetical.  Assume we like you better than Standard ‑‑

9113     MS. LAURIGNANO:  The Standard one, we looked at 95.9.  It would be okay for 3‑point watt non‑directional, but it would be difficult for us to combine into the CBC antenna with whom we have arrangements.  There's other technical things that I don't even know myself, but it was not the best frequency for our proposal.

9114     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, can I assume you'll keep looking at it.

9115     MS. LAURIGNANO:  Absolutely.

9116     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That's good enough for me.  Thank you.

9117     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Just a question for Ms. McLaughlin.  Page 4 of your brief.  You were trying to explain the decline in radio listening in the various demographics from 2002 to today due to the dissatisfaction with what is currently on the radio.

9118     I suppose I'm trying to figure out the logic here since your own format didn't exist at that time, so how would that explain the decline?  I can understand if you were a country applicant and you were saying, "Well, you know, they took country off, so listenership declined."  But since that format wasn't there in '02, how do you account for the decline based on that?

9119     MS. McLAUGHLIN:  First of all, the reason I bring up the decline is, in fact, to show that people are tuning away from radio.  They don't tune away necessarily because a format has just disappeared; they just find less satisfaction in what they are listening to.

9120     As I pointed out yesterday to Madam Wiley, when I looked at updating the data, because this was filed in Spring 2004, I noticed that ‑‑ I mean, I'm guessing when I say it's in reaction to an application; but if I was a station owner, I'd do the same thing.  I would move my emphasis to be very well‑served in some of the other demographics.  I would move it away from the centre.  And I noticed that there was a great deal of growth in the tuning, at least at the index, the efficiency on the lower end of the demographic.  So that suggests to me that there's been a slight retuning of the radio stations in the market, which disenfranchises people who maybe don't like the sounds that are required to actually increase the tuning in those very specific demographics.

9121     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is another way of saying it, it's your view that there's been a move down the demographic by the stations in the market, leaving your chosen demographic without as much choice as they had two years ago?

9122     MS. McLAUGHLIN:  Yes, with the exception of CHNL.

9123     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  And what would that be due to?  As you say, CHNL is there.  Why would they have done that?

9124     MS. McLAUGHLIN:  Well, in my experience ...

‑‑‑ Microphone off

9125     MR. LeBEL:  Excuse me?

9126     MS. McLAUGHLIN:  Sorry.  I have to couch this in the fact that I do not run a radio station, but it's an economic driver.  It is easier to attract revenues in the younger demographics because they are perceived to be in a different life cycle.  They are purchasing hard goods, new homes, they are developing families, which has a certain list of expenses, and they're very attractive to advertisers.  In simple terms, advertising to that group is advertising amongst low‑hanging fruit, really, because it's very easy to make the case that these people will be purchasing products and services.

9127     THE CHAIRPERSON:  But aren't we witnessing a general decline in radio listenership throughout the country, in all demographics, really?  We have heard applications recently for youth‑oriented channels which show declines.  Explanations vary:  Online listening, i‑Pods, and so forth.

9128     I guess your demographic is a little less likely to be online listening and i‑Pod listening perhaps than much younger demographics, but isn't there a general decline in radio listening across the board?

9129     MS. McLAUGHLIN:  Absolutely.  And I think that one of the challenges for radio broadcasters is to move away from the broader‑brush look that they have of transporting formats from market to market and to get creative and maybe take some risks.

9130     Targeting the 45‑plus group is not an immediately beneficial tack to take.  It has a long‑term obvious benefit, but it's not nearly as easy as launching a station that has an 18 to 64 group.  And so I think, to that end, that's what's required to reverse that trend.

9131     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

9132     MS. LAURIGNANO:  If I can just add to that?  I think in an ideal world, we as broadcasters would all like to run stations that target 18 to 54 because that's where the bulk of the population is, where the bulk of the advertising is, where the bulk of the money is.  It's the safest route, it's the one that's going to have the largest critical mass and attract the biggest number of advertisers.  So in those markets where that is possible, to many broadcasters, that is the best option for them in economic terms.  Hence, I think that that would explain some of the tuning that has fallen off the two extremes of those demographics, that is the teens and the older.  There's not too much choice.  Not that they're not listening to music or getting their information, they're just going away from radio.

9133     So the Jewel would hope to address that problem in the higher end of the demographic in Kamloops.

9134     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

9135     Mr. Secretary?

9136     MR. LeBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

9137     I will now ask Standard Radio to respond to interventions at this point.

‑‑‑ Pause

9138     MR. SHAFER:  Thank you.  By the way, there's great fishing in Logan Lake.

9139     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Sorry, I missed that.

9140     MR. SHAFER:  You were talking about Logan Lake.  There's terrific fishing in Logan Lake.  A great place to fish.

9141     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But is there a huge demand for frequencies?

9142     MR. SHAFER:  Well, if you can't find something to listen to, yes.

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