ARCHIVÉ -  Transcription

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

      THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES AVANT

  CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

   ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

SUBJECT:

 

 

 

VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:             TENUE À:

 

Fairmont Hotel Vancouver             Fairmont Hotel Vancouver

900 West Georgia Street             900, rue Georgia O.

Vancouver, British Columbia             Vancouver (C.-B.)

 

 

February 28, 2005          Le 28 février 2005

 

 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Canadian Radio‑television and

Telecommunications Commission

 

  Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

Transcript / Transcription

 

 

        

  VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

        

 

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Charles Dalfen          Chairperson / Président

Andrée Wylie          Commissioner / Conseillère

Ronald Williams          Commissioner / Conseillier

Joan Pennefather          Commissioner / Conseillère

Stuart Langford          Commissioner / Conseillier

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Pierre Lebel     Secretary / Secrétaire

 

Alistair Stewart          Legal Counsel /

Conseillers juridiques

 

Joe Aguiar          Hearing Manager /

Gérant de l'audience

 

 

 

HELD AT:          TENUE À:

 

Fairmont Hotel Vancouver          Fairmont Hotel Vancouver

900 West Georgia Street          900, rue Georgia O.

Vancouver, British Columbia          Vancouver (C.-B.)

 

 

February 28, 2005          Le 28 février 2005

 

TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

   PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE I

 

 

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

 

Rogers Broadcasting Ltd. & Radio 1540 Ltd. 8 /   44

 

Sukhvinder Singh Badh (OBCI) 120 /  628

 

South Asian Broadcasting Corporation Inc.    182 / 1149

 

 

 

Vancouver, B.C. / Vancouver (C.‑B.)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Monday, February 28, 2005 at

    0930 / L'audience débute le lundi 28 février 2005

    à 0930

1     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this public hearing.  My name is Charles Dalfen.  I'm the Chairman of the CRTC.  I will be presiding over this hearing.

2     Joining me on the panel are my colleagues:  Andrée Wylie, to my right, Vice‑Chair Broadcasting; and to her right, Ronald Williams, Regional Commissioner for Alberta and the Northwest Territories; to my left, Commissioner Joan Pennefather; and to her left, Commissioner Stuart Langford.

3     The Commission team assisting us includes Hearing Manager and Senior Broadcasting Analyst, Joe Aguiar; Alastair Stewart, Legal Counsel; and Pierre LeBel, Hearing Secretary.  Please speak with Mr. LeBel if you have any questions with regard to hearing procedures.

4     The first part of the hearing will involve an examination of eight applications for licences to operate ethnic radio services in Vancouver.

5     We will then move on to an application from Rogers Broadcasting Limited to acquire the assets of two licensed television stations, one not yet in operation, and to add a transmitter in Victoria.

6     Finally, we will examine three applications for licences to operate radio stations in Kamloops.

7     The panel will review the applications for new radio stations in Vancouver and Kamloops, with a view to ensuring that they meet the cultural, economic, and social objectives set out in the Broadcasting Act, as well as various CRTC policies, such as the Commercial Radio Policy and the policy on ethnic broadcasting.

8     Our criteria for evaluating the applications will include competition and the diversity of editorial voices in the markets involved and, of course, the quality of the applications.

9     We will also be looking at the ability of the Vancouver and Kamloops markets to support new radio stations, the financial resources of each applicant and proposed initiatives for Canadian talent development.

10     On July 21, 2004, the Commission issued a call for applications for licences to operate ethnic radio stations in Vancouver.  Applicants were required to indicate how their proposed programming would affect Vancouver's linguistic diversity as well as its multicultural and multiethnic reality.  The Commission notes that Vancouver is one of the most diverse markets in Canada, with 40 percent of its population composed of people whose mother tongue is neither English nor French.

11     This proceeding falls within the framework of measures being undertaken by the Commission to increase the choice and diversity of services aimed at ethnic communities in Canada, consistent with paragraph 3(1)(d)(iii) of the Broadcasting Act.

12     That paragraph declares that the Canadian broadcasting system should "... serve the needs and interests, and reflect the circumstances and aspirations, of Canadian men, women and children ... including the multicultural and multiracial nature of Canadian society ..."

13     The applicants will be heard in the following order:

14     1.  Rogers Broadcasting Ltd. and Radio 1540 Ltd.

15     2.  Sukhvinder Singh Badh.

16     3.  South Asian Broadcasting Corporation Inc.

17     4.  Radio India (2004) Limited.

18     5.  CHUM Limited.

19     6.  I.T. Productions Limited.

20     7.  Mainstream Broadcasting Corporation.

21     8.  Newlife Communications Inc.

22     We will then review the applications by Rogers Broadcasting Limited to acquire from Trinity Television Inc. the assets of English language radio‑television stations CHNU‑TV Fraser Valley and CIIT‑TV Winnipeg, which is not yet in operation.  The applicant is also proposing to add a transmitter in Victoria in order to broadcast the programming of CHNU‑TV Fraser Valley.

23     The applicant has valued the transaction at $13 million, and is proposing tangible benefits totalling 10% of the value of the transaction or $1.3 million.

24     Finally, we will study the applications for licences to operate new English language FM commercial stations in Kamloops in light of the criteria which I have previously stated.

25     This process is pursuant to the call for broadcasting applications issued by the Commission last July.

26     We will hear the applications in the following order.

27     1.  Standard Radio Inc.

28     2.  Evanov Radio Group Inc.

29     3.  NL Broadcasting Limited.

30     This hearing should take one week.  Our days will begin at 9 a.m., starting tomorrow, and will conclude around 6 p.m., except for Tuesday and Wednesday, when we expect to finish later.  We will inform you of any changes in the schedule that may occur.

31     We ask you to please turn off your cell phones and pagers when you are in the hearing room as they are an unwelcomed distraction for participants and Commission staff and Commissioners.  We would appreciate your cooperation in this regard throughout the hearing.

32     I will now ask the Secretary, Mr. Pierre LeBel, to explain the procedures that we will be following.

33     MR. LeBEL:   Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  Before we begin, just a few housekeeping matters.

34     First, I would like to indicate that the Commission's examination room is located in the boardroom located on the floor just below this floor, and public files of the applications being considered at this hearing can be examined there.  The telephone number, as indicated in the agenda, is (604)666‑1132.

35     Secondly, there's a verbatim transcript of this hearing being taken by the court reporter at the table to my left in the centre.  If you have any questions on how to obtain all or part of this transcript, please approach the court reporter during a break for information.

36     Next, I would like to indicate that, in its application, Radio India (2004) Limited, item 4 on the agenda, was proposing to operate a transmitter in Abbotsford to broadcast the programs of the proposed FM station.  The Commission was advised by Industry Canada that they will not issue a technical acceptability certificate for the Abbotsford broadcaster of the proposed station; therefore, the applicant was informed that the Commission would not proceed with consideration of the Abbotsford rebroadcaster portion of the application at this hearing.

37     Now, Mr. Chairman, we will proceed with the appearing applications on the agenda.  The first eight items are competing applications to operate ethnic radio stations in Vancouver, and we will proceed as follows:

38     First, we will hear each applicant in the agenda order, and each applicant will be granted 20 minutes to make his presentation.  Questions from the Commission will follow each presentation.

39     In phase 2, the applicants will reappear in the same order to intervene on the competing applications, if they wish.  Ten minutes are allowed for this purpose.  Questions from the Commission may follow each intervention.

40     In phase 3, other parties will appear in the order set out in the agenda to present their intervention, and, again, questions from the Commission may follow.

41     Phase 4 provides an opportunity for each applicant to reply to all interventions submitted on their application.  Applicants appear in reverse order, and ten minutes are allowed for this reply.  Again, questions may follow.

42     Now, Mr. Chairman, we will proceed with item 1 on the agenda, which is an application by Rogers Broadcasting Limited and Radio 1540 Limited for a licence to operate a commercial specialty FM ethnic radio programming undertaking in Vancouver.  The new station will operate on frequency 93.1 megahertz, channel 226 C1, with an average effective radiated power of 2,800 watts.  Appearing for the applicant, Mr. Gary Miles, and Mr. Miles will introduce his colleagues.

43     You have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

44     MR. MILES:   Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, I'm Gary Miles, CEO, Rogers Radio.  It is a pleasure to appear before you today to present a joint application by Rogers and CHIN Radio for a new ethnic radio station in Vancouver.

45     With me are Lenny Lombardi, President and CEO, CHIN Radio; Joe Mulvihill, Executive Vice‑President and COO, CHIN Radio; Madeline Ziniak, Vice‑President and General Manager, OMNI Television; and Alain Strati, Vice‑President, Business and Regulatory Affairs.

46     At the next table we have Steve Edwards, Vice‑President Corporate Engineering and Technology, Rogers Broadcasting; Paul Fisher, Vice‑President and Marketing Manager, Rogers Radio in Vancouver; Del Ehret, Business Director, Rogers Radio, Vancouver; Rael Merson, President, Rogers Broadcasting; Renato Zane, Vice‑President News, OMNI Television; and Paritosh Mehta, Independent Production Manager, OMNI Television.

47     You have before you a number of different local applications proposing to develop a new ethnic radio station for Vancouver.  Each applicant has proposed to develop a new station that will focus its programming on local, underserved, South Asian communities, and is certainly worthy of the Commission's consideration for a new licence.

48     This morning, we would like to take this opportunity to explain to you why we are applying for an ethnic station in this market and why we are partnering with CHIN.

49     We believe the ethnic communities here in Vancouver need a foundation ethnic station.  By "foundation," we mean a station that will use programming to larger groups as a platform upon which to support the expansion of service, not only to more groups, but also to other critical ethnic programming initiatives.

50     With 63 hours of programming per week, we are proposing that our station focus on service to the South Asian communities.  However, we are also proposing that our station provide fair and balanced access for many other smaller ethnic and linguistic groups, communities who might not otherwise have access to broadcast media.

51     And we are proposing to establish a strong commitment to cross‑cultural programming, to bring people together and to create opportunities for dialogue and interaction between different communities.

52     Rogers and CHIN are each pioneers in Canadian ethnic media.  In the 1960s, CHIN launched the very first ethnic radio station.  In the 1970s, Rogers produced third‑language ethnic programming on its cable community channels, and in the 1980s took over the operation of CFMT, an ethnic television station in Toronto.

53     Both companies have dedicated substantial resources and effort to establish a foundation to the successful development of ethnic broadcasting in Canada.  Both companies are operating stations which provide local communities with the opportunity to express themselves efficiently and objectively within the Canadian broadcasting system.  Both companies have sought to expand their role in ethnic broadcasting to meet the expectations and demands of the audiences they serve.

54     We believe the strength of our application in Vancouver lies not just in the programming commitments we have made, but perhaps even more importantly, as a result of the combination of the collective resources that we have in OMNI and CHIN.

55     Lenny?

56     MR. LOMBARDI:   I would like to explain why CHIN Radio has decided to join Rogers in this application and to set out what we believe we can contribute to an ethnic radio station here in Vancouver.

57     My father, Johnny Lombardi, was an independent radio producer with big dreams in Toronto in the late '40s and early '50s.  He always felt indebted to two individuals who helped him realize those dreams.  One is Alan Waters, broadcasting on 1050 CHUM.  My father was provided his first opportunity to produce third language programs and test his dreams for multicultural programming in Toronto.  The other is Ted Rogers.  Ted and my father were partners very early on in the joint application for AM‑1540.  My father became a director of that station and seized the opportunity to produce multicultural programs for that station.

58     Ted had promised my dad that if he could find another AM frequency, he would give my dad the first right to purchase the assets of AM‑1540.  Ted made good on that promise, and when he found AM‑680, my father made an application for AM‑1540 and won the licence for the first multicultural radio station in Toronto in 1966.

59     Through stations in Toronto and, more recently, in Ottawa, CHIN has over 38 years of ethnic broadcasting experience.  In four significant ways, we believe that experience will be an important asset to the station we have proposed in partnership with Rogers.

60     1.  CHIN will directly participate in the management team.

61     2.  CHIN will actively participate in the development and implementation of the station's community outreach program, identifying independent producers and support from local ethnic communities.

62     3.  CHIN will contribute our extensive expertise in local sales and on‑location broadcasts.

63     4.  CHIN will assist in the development, production, and presentation of major multicultural events, modelled after the successes of the CHIN international picnics in Toronto and Ottawa.

64     More than 40 years after my father and Ted had first agreed to submit a joint application for AM‑1540, CHIN and Rogers have now again filed a joint application, this time for a new ethnic station in Vancouver.

65     As my father did then, and as we intend to do now, we will actively participate in the development, launch, and operation of this new station.

66     Madeline?

67     MS. ZINIAK:   Thanks, Lenny.

68     I have witnessed the evolution of the ethnic media landscape in this country.  This evolution has not happened overnight.  For 38 years, in the case of CHIN, and 25 years for OMNI, we have been there, responding to the needs of ethnocultural communities, ensuring they have a voice in the Canadian broadcasting system.

69     Both CHIN and OMNI have been in the trenches from the very beginning.  We were both there when diversity was not trendy, when it was not very popular to be called an ethnic journalist, or to be part of the ethnic media.  We were the soldiers of diversity, trying to establish the respect that ethnic media deserves.

70     I remember myself many years ago going to the press clubs of this country to lobby for the membership of Canadian ethnic journalists.  It was only in 1979 that we finally did convince the press clubs to accept Canadian ethnic journalists as Canadian journalists.  Today these establishments want us to be members.  They want to access our resources, to bring forward the kind of stories and insight we have to offer.

71     Throughout all of this, we have had the opportunity to work with the multilingual talent base of this country, to harness their enthusiasm and vitality for freedom of expression and thirst for the production of Canadian third language programming.  We have nurtured new producers, unleashed great opportunities for seasoned Canadian ethnic journalists, and worked side by side with community organizations in trying to bring the best and balanced editorial coverage and expression.

72     OMNI and CHIN agree on many basic principles.  We agree that ethnic broadcasters have a responsibility to serve the broad diversity of the local communities we serve; an extensive responsibility to invest the time and resources necessary to produce high‑quality ethnic programming, especially for smaller groups who might never otherwise have a chance to access broadcast media.

73     We agree that ethnic broadcasters have a responsibility to establish a media platform for cross‑cultural communication.  Ethnocultural communities do not function in isolation, there are too many shared issues and shared solutions.  Distinct communities must reach out to other communities to appreciate and to communicate the similarities that they share.

74     We agree that ethnic broadcasters must ensure that ethnic programming is objective, reflective, and balanced.  We have almost 65 years of combined broadcasting experience and have developed editorial policies and journalistic principles that reflect the unique perspective of Canadian ethnocultural communities.

75     I see this application as yet another step in the development of a vibrant, inclusive, and highly professional ethnic broadcasting industry in Canada, an industry that is already perceived around the world as a model to be emulated.

76     Gary?

77     MR. MILES:  Rogers has operated radio stations in this market for more than 15 years.  As we've done in all the markets we serve, we establish strong roots in the community, and with the help of our local advisory board, provide radio stations that serve the needs and demands of local listeners.  We are proud of our accomplishments, our tradition of service, and the extent to which our stations become active and involve members of their local communities.

78     For instance, last year, the Rogers companies in British Columbia were instrumental in developing and producing Vancouver's first‑ever official Santa Claus parade, an event that was enjoyed by over 300,000 spectators in the downtown area.

79     We see this application for a new ethnic radio station as an important opportunity to use the established expertise and facilities of our radio group to further benefit the local communities we serve in this city.

80     Lenny?

81     MR. LOMBARDI:  The three existing ethnic stations in Vancouver focus almost exclusively on programming for the local Chinese community, the largest and most economically robust ethnocultural group here.  In contrast, very little programming is provided for the South Asian communities.  As a result, programming for these communities is instead offered by two AM stations from just across the border in the United States.  These stations, Radio Punjab and Radio India, operate in the Vancouver market as quasi‑Canadian radio stations but without the need to comply with CRTC rules and requirements.

82     Our station will fully and fairly reflect the cultural and linguistic diversity of this city and address the need for more ethnic programming.  To accomplish this, we will pursue three specific programming strategies:

83     1.  We will offer South Asian communities an attractive and competitive alternative to the U.S. border stations.  We have proposed 63 hours per week of South Asian programming, including Punjabi morning and afternoon drive‑time programs, and Hindi language mid‑day programs, all part of a South Asian weekday programming block.

84     The strength and impact of our South Asian programming will come from our commitment to produce programming from the point of view of the Canadian experience from our own unique Canadian perspective.

85     2.  We will dedicate parts of our schedule cross‑cultural programming initiatives.  Cross‑cultural programming brings communities together, creating unique opportunities for dialogue and interaction, amongst and across different communities.  In many ways, a commitment to serving a broad number of different ethnocultural roots will result in our station operating more like 18 different stations.  Cross‑cultural programming bridges that gap and provides the impetus for the creation of a specific forum in which different communities can come together to express both their similarities and their differences.

86     3.  We will ensure fair and balanced access to our station for smaller ethnic and linguistic groups, offering them a meaningful opportunity each week to discuss the issues of interest to their community.  In our proposed schedule, we have included programs for a broad number of smaller communities, communities such as Spanish, Russian, Italian, Polish, Croatian, and Iranian.  In each case, we have proposed to dedicate at least one hour of these programs per week, ensuring that each program will have a meaningful opportunity to reflect the needs and interests of that community.

87     For all of these communities, this is appointment radio.  This is the specific time of the week in which their interests are expressed and discussed.  It is often the only time in the week in which their Canadian identity, their Canadian perspective, is reflected in broadcast media.

88     To effectively serve a broad number of different communities, we will work with community‑based independent producers to develop high‑quality radio programming.  Both CHIN and OMNI have successfully developed an associate independent producer model for the production of these programs.  Our model is not based on the sale of brokered time.  We instead work with these producers as partners.  We help them develop programming concepts and proposals, coordinate the necessary programming infrastructure, and hone their sales skills and techniques.

89     As a result, for us, the broad service mandate is also a business opportunity, an opportunity to nurture the development of smaller groups and broaden the financial base of our station.

90     Alain?

91     MR. STRATI:  The proposed partnership between Rogers and CHIN will provide our station with a unique opportunity to promote Canadian talent.  We are proposing to contribute a total of $700,000 over the term of the licence to fund specific Canadian talent development initiatives.

92     We are proposing $50,000 a year for the production of Canadian radio features, documentary shorts and program pilots.  Through our experience with the OMNI 2 fund, we have witnessed the extent to which funding of this nature can provide a vehicle for expression for Canadian independent producers.  A similar approach, within a radio format, will allow aspiring Canadian producers to use an engaging and entertaining platform from which to provide a more indepth retrospective on issues of concern to their community or to a broader group of communities.

93     The international success of Bhangra music, produced from right here in Vancouver, exemplifies the potential for Canadian artists.

94     We are also proposing to provide $25,000 a year for a new, high‑profile ethnic music and songwriting competition.  Selected finalists will be invited to perform live at our station's musical and cultural event.  Contest winners will receive cash prizes to further pursue their career goals, whether they be recording sessions, promotional support, or ongoing musical training.

95     Public service announcements are a very effective way of raising awareness of community issues and concerns.  However, local organizations often lack the resources or experience to produce their own PSAs.  We are proposing to provide these organizations with $7,000 a year for the independent production of PSAs, helping them to communicate their messages to local communities.  The PSAs will remain the property of the local organizations, allowing them the opportunity to further deliver their messages on other stations, ethnic or otherwise.

96     In partnership with the British Columbia Institute of Technology, we are proposing $15,000 a year for the development of an extensive and interactive media awareness workshop program for local producers, journalists, and community representatives.

97     We are also proposing to contribute $3,000 a year for the ongoing initiative by the Canadian Association of Ethnic Broadcasters to establish a catalogue of Canadian ethnic recordings.

98     We look forward to the opportunity of working with artists, independent producers, and community organizations.  Together we believe the initiatives we have proposed will further contribute to the development and success of Canadian ethnic broadcasting.

99     Gary?

100     MR. MILES:  With three Canadian stations that serve the Chinese community and two U.S. border stations serving the South Asian communities, radio services available in Vancouver are focusing on the two largest and most economically viable ethnic groups.  Any new station licensed as part of this hearing will face strong competition from the local incumbents.

101     A number of other applicants have also proposed new Canadian ethnic stations with a strong focus on South Asian programming.  The Commission may consider the licensing of one of these stations to establish stronger and more extensive Canadian radio services for the growing population of South Asian communities in Vancouver; however, we believe the Commission should also consider the licensing of another station.  One like the one we have proposed, whose purpose is to fulfil the Commission's objective of a broad service mandate and to serve the diversity of communities and interests here in the city.

102     We will do that not only with a focus on South Asian programming, but also with service to many other underserved communities, and with a strong commitment to cross‑cultural programming.  The Rogers‑CHIN partnership ensures that we have the resources and the experience needed to fulfil all of these difficult programming and service commitments.

103     Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, we believe the approval of our application would best serve local listeners, contribute to the achievement of the objectives of the ethnic broadcasting policy, and make the most effective use of the available frequency in the Vancouver market.

104     As we have highlighted in our presentation to you this morning, we submit there are three reasons you should approve our application:

105     1.  Our station will serve the needs and demands of the South Asian communities in Vancouver, offering a wide variety of programs, produced locally from our Canadian perspective.

106     2.  Our station will fulfil the letter and the spirit of the ethnic policies broad service requirement, providing smaller underserved groups with a meaningful opportunity for reflection and expression.

107     3.  Our station will focus on programming opportunities to foster cross‑cultural dialogue and communication, to ensure communities are provided with an effective forum to voice their shared experiences.

108     In partnership with CHIN and in conjunction with OMNI Television, we believe we have the commitment and the resources necessary to establish a reflective and balanced radio station to serve local ethnic communities here in Vancouver.  As such, we believe the approval of our application is in the public interest.

109     That concludes our presentation this morning.  Thank you for your time and attention, and, of course, we will be pleased to answer any questions.

110     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

111     Commissioner Pennefather?

112     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

113     Good morning, Mr. Lombardi, Mr. Miles, Ms Ziniak, Mr. Strati, Mr. Mulvihill, and the table.

114     I do have the charts, so I will recognize your names, but I will direct questions largely at Mr. Miles, Mr. Lombardi.  You may, of course, ask your colleagues to offer any further information, as you see fit.

115     We will start with programming.  Let me say that I will be using extensively the Appendix 7A chart that you submitted with your application and, obviously, the program schedule which you submitted with your application.

116     In the supplementary brief at page 1, in the second paragraph, you describe your new station as:

117     "... committed to ethnic programming, with 100% of our schedule dedicated to ethnic programming ... At least 70% of that will be in third languages."

118     And you go on to discuss the English language programming in the same paragraph as serving two purposes:

119     "... to serve a larger grouping of South Asian communities and to produce cross‑cultural programming, to address issues, interests, and concerns shared by all ethnic communities."

120     Now, in the deficiency letter of December 8 ‑‑ there's only one deficiency letter, so we don't need to refer to the date.  It's the deficiency letter on page 3.  You do commit to these levels of 100 percent ethnic programming and 70 percent third language by condition of licence.  Correct?

121     MR. MILES:  That is correct.

122     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I'd like then, in that context, to focus on the English language programming which you are proposing to offer.  Since you have said that 100 percent of your schedule will be ethnic programming, I'd like to inquire a little further into the matter of the cross‑cultural programming.

123     Regarding this, you have identified 12 hours, or 9.5 percent, of the schedule will be a daily open line talk show, and this is the cross‑cultural program, as I understand it; is that correct?

124     MR. MILES:  Correct.

125     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I'd like to discuss with you why you consider this to be an ethnic program.  You do explain well today, and on page 10 of your supplementary brief, the rationale for cross‑cultural programming, so it's less the value of this approach that I wanted to hone in on, more the definition, in terms of it being an ethnic programming.  Within a 100 percent schedule, I think it's important we understand that this is indeed ethnic as defined in the ethnic broadcasting policy.

126     This matter was, of course, raised with you in the deficiency letter at Question 4.  Just so we are clear, the policy, as you know, defines a cross‑cultural program as:

127     "... ethnic programming provided ... that it is specifically dedicated to any culturally or racially distinct group other than one that is Aboriginal Canadian or from France or the British Isles."

128     So the key feature here is that the program must address the particular interests of a single distinct community.  That is the prerequisite in the definition so that cross‑cultural programming qualifies as ethnic, as such.

129     Now, in your application, you suggest that the English language programming will serve a larger grouping of the South Asian communities and the public at large.  This is at 7.7 of your application.  Therefore, while noteworthy, and as I said earlier, not challenging the value of a discussion on issues among cultural groups, including the English language larger public or French language larger public, the definition, as such, is one where this programming to be called "ethnic" should be directed at a distinct group.

130     Just to make sure that you, too, see where I'm coming from, in your supplementary brief, you compare this approach to cross‑cultural programming to the programming in Ottawa and Toronto, similar programming called cross‑cultural open line, and in there you note as well that the program would reach several different groups:  Italian, South Asians, Chinese, Jewish, Spanish, West Indian, and I'm assuming that's the same approach you're talking about here.

131     So, again, what you're talking about in this application is cross‑cultural programming to reach several groups and the public at large.

132     So with that preamble, if you could help us to understand why you consider the cross‑cultural programming which you are proposing in this application to be ethnic programming.

133     MR. MILES:  Thank you.  With your permission, I think I'd like to answer your question on the following basis:  First, I'm going to ask Mr. Strati to talk about the policy as we have interpreted it.  Then I think it would be useful to have Mr. Lombardi explain how the actual program is going to operate and how it works.  And then if we need any further emphasis that this is a good idea, I certainly have Madeline here, who is a champion of this kind of programming information.

134     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That's fine.  As I said, I think it's important for us to understand your rationale, although it is well‑explained.  It's not that it's not a good thing.

135     MR. MILES:  No.

136     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  It's a question of the ethnic broadcasting policy and its definition as "ethnic," and the fact that you have presented before us your agreement to a condition of licence of 100 percent ethnic programming.  So this component of 12 hours cross‑cultural programming, being defined as one that is designed to reach several groups in the community at large, would not appear to be ethnic programming.  So perhaps you could explain why you think it is, because you must, if it's 100 percent proposed.

137     MR. MILES:  We certainly have made it one of our kingpins for our application to differentiate ourselves.

138     Mr. Strati?

139     MR. STRATI:  Thanks, Gary.

140     The way we have interpreted the definition or looked at the definition, from our perspective, the most important point is to direct it to any culturally or racially distinct group.  So as opposed to, for example, a cultural or racially distinct group.

141     So we say "any."  We are talking about a program that has the components of the definition in the ethnic policy of an ethnic program, but also has the ability to reach different cultural and racially distinct group as opposed to a single distinct community.  In the definition, it does refer to "any."  So for us, is the ability to reach out and to discuss issues among different communities, however, staying within the rubric, if you will, of issues and concerns that are specifically for the ethnic communities?

142     So if there is an issue that is a ‑‑ whether it's a broad issue, for example, a federal issue or an issue that is a matter of concern for mainstream Canadians as well as it is for members of the ethnic community, the idea is to have the same issue, but discussed within a particular perspective of ethnic communities; and within that rubric, to talk about different ethnic communities talking about the same issue together.

143     So when we talk about cross‑cultural programming, we're still talking about programming that fits the definition of an ethnic program, that has the components of the ethnic perspective and the ethnic Canadian experience; however, it's a facilitator for different ethnic groups to discuss the same issues together.  So that's the way we interpreted the definition of the ethnic policy.

144     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So, Mr. Strati, as I understand it, you're placing the emphasis on "any," the word "any."

145     In paragraph 9 of the ethnic policy, the same word is used to define ethnic programming.  When we discuss your ethnic programming overall, clearly, as you note in your chart and in your schedule, you choose to direct your programming at specific groups, distinct groups, be it Punjabi, be it in different languages, be it Japanese, be it South Asian, be it Polish, Croatian.  So in that context, ethnic programming ‑‑ which is defined using the same words, that is, "specifically directed to any culturally, racially distinct group," is interpreted in the schedule as distinct groups, individual groups.

146     When you take the same line in the definition of "cross‑cultural" in order to clarify that ethnic programming can include cross‑cultural, the cross‑cultural still has to be directed to specific groups, if you take 9 and 10 together.  Do you want to comment further on that?

147     MR. STRATI:  Sure.  Certainly, Madeline or Lenny or Paritosh can talk a little bit about some of the specific programs like you've mentioned.

148     Even within that context, if we're talking, for example, about the South Asian communities, you will have, in terms of a program, whether it's a Punjabi program, whether it's a Hindi program or an Urdu program, there is, even within communities or within sort of a broader grouping, if you will, of different groups and different communities, there is also a community of interest.  There's no distinction in terms of, if you will, a program that only targets one specific community, and certainly the program, because of its language component and because perhaps some of its programming content, will focus on a specific community.

149     Even within that context, if you look at parts of Eastern Europe, Russian programs, there are opportunities for other communities and other groups to also participate and be served by those programs.

150     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yes.  By its very nature, as you describe it, and it's a most interesting concept, the cross‑cultural is to reach to several different groups, is it not?

151     MR. STRATI:  Yes.

152     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So it can't be both destined for a distinct group, as the definition of "ethnic," as you will underline the various components of your schedule and, at the same time, to the broad public.  I'm speaking to you as a programmer, in terms of the way you'll put the show together.

153     So in terms of that, what we're looking at as the cross‑cultural programming would appear to be different in its aim than the ethnic programming that you have through the balance of your schedule?

154     MR. STRATI:  I'll certainly ask Lenny to answer that.

155     MR. LOMBARDI:  Let me just try my hand.

156     I think the best way to look at what we're trying to accomplish here with our cross‑cultural programming is really bring together the resources of the associate producers and the human resources that are available to us under the umbrella of this ethnic station, in a strong communicative way, so that we can give a greater forum to what already exists in third language broadcasts in those various languages.

157     To give you an example from Toronto, I listen to ethnic radio ‑‑ that's my passion and my business.  And I have an opportunity to tap into those programs that are in the English language, and those are identified as some Italian programming, Jewish programming, West Indian programming, some South Asian, and I can connect to what I hear because it's in the English language.  Now, those programs are directed to specific cultural groups, but I'm having an opportunity to tap into it.

158     Now, we do that in our program schedule throughout the broadcast week.

159     Cross‑cultural programming in the two‑hour blocks that we're offering will be highlights from the various ethnocultural groups and associate producers that are doing those types of programs in third language but have an opportunity now to take that same topic, address it to the same ethnocultural community, but in the English language this time, and by its very nature, it now becomes an opportunity for more people to participate in that dialogue.

160     So if the same type of discussion about social issues is happening in the Portuguese language, and on a given day of the week we invite our Portuguese producer to deal with that same topic but in the English language and promote that topic and opportunity to participate in an open‑line show with other people of similar interests, you know, that's the whole notion behind this cross‑cultural programming.  We're just taking it from third language existence and bringing it into the broader scope, where we're taking it into the English language as well.

161     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So we are talking about the 9:00 to 11:00 period, the call‑in show, talk show.

162     MR. LOMBARDI:  Yes.  And I'd like to add just one more point.

163     This is an ethnic station.  Our listeners will be from the ethnocultural communities.  I listen to it as my passion and my business.  I tend to tap into these issues that revolve around ethnocultural communities.  I'm a listener of ethnic radio.  Everyone who listens to our station in Vancouver will be a listener of that station.  It's quite likely that listenership will carry through and stay tuned to our programs the way we've tried to program the blocks.

164     So it's a natural consequence for our Spanish listeners to come back to our station in Vancouver and connect with our cross‑cultural program because their associate producer from their community is going to be a regular participant in that show.  That's how we're going to grow our audience, is that each individual associate producer is going to bring them back to that talk show.

165     MS. ZINIAK:  Sorry.  If I may just add also?

166     I think there's something to be said when we're dealing with hosts that are coming from third language programs, and audiences often have been stopped from traditional radio programs because maybe they're considered an audible minority; they don't feel as comfortable phoning in.  Sometimes hosts of traditional media aren't as gentle with that kind of audience feedback, quite frankly.

167     I think what we've done is created a very comfortable environment for individuals from specific ethnocultural groups, be it if they're speaking about an issue such as the reassessment of professionals, which is of great concern to specific and others, but it's also creating a very comfortable environment for a call‑in for these ethno‑specific communities.

168     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Well, please understand, again, I'm not questioning that it isn't, as such, a programming concept which would add value to listeners.  The nature of it, though, the blue component in the English language, is it's a call‑in talk show, and it's a show which you define in your application and in all the material submitted as one reaching all different communities.  Therefore, the distinction being, it is not directed to a specific community, but its genius, if you will, is that people from all different communities will be listening and get a perspective from different point of views.

169     Mr. Lombardi, we had this discussion recently in Ottawa in the context of a mainstream station in which, if I interpret our discussion ‑‑ and I went over the transcript ‑‑ you were describing the cross‑cultural programming as, in fact, not ethnic programming.

170     MR. LOMBARDI:  That's right.  That's very true.  The distinction here, though, is that this is an ethnic application, and Ottawa was a mainstream.  That's, in itself, a very great distinction.  If I could explain, the Ottawa application was drawing from the associate producers of CJLL, an ethnic radio station.  Those would be our human resources for a culturally diverse spoken word.

171     Here, as an ethnic station, we have the resources in‑house in this station.  It's the same operation, it's the same respect with the issues, but we're drawing from our existing associate producers and bringing them from third language existence in those talk‑show formats and bringing it to a broader audience in the English language, which is really the whole notion behind cross‑cultural.

172     If you will take the view that we are discussing professional accreditation and job placement in Canada for the recent arrivals, and our subject matter is drawing from an experience within the Spanish community.  Our resources are our Spanish producer, our hosts and guests are from the Spanish community, and we're telling the story from the perspective of someone from the Spanish community.  In a way, that program is specifically directed to the Spanish community.  Maybe that group would extract more from that discussion than someone from the Italian community.  Nevertheless, both have a great opportunity to understand the dilemma that faces new arrivals in job placement.

173     That's basically how we're going to approach this type of program.

174     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you for that, I understand.  Again, as I say, what I'm trying to get to here is the fact that you have committed to 100 percent ethnic programming.  And if you take the fact that, as you have very well‑described again this morning, the very nature of this programming is to reach many different groups at the same time, it may be that the Commission sees that this particular component of the schedule is not ethnic programming as defined in the ethnic programming policy.  In fact, your Ottawa station, your ethnic station currently underway in Ottawa, has 94 percent ethnic because of, I think, the 7.5 hours of cross‑cultural programming.  We're talking about the same concept which you've had underway in Toronto, Ottawa, and which you propose to bring to Vancouver with this proposal.

175     So, as I understand it, we've listened to your rationale for seeing it as ethnic under the policy definition.  But should the Commission decide that indeed this particular component, cross‑cultural programming in English, is not specifically directed to any cultural or racial group in order to be considered ethnic, would the 100 percent level be adjusted?

176     MR. MILES:  Yes, it would.  Thank you.

177     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And would you accept the revised level as a condition of licence?

178     MR. MILES:  Yes, we would.

179     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And further, because the chart and the schedule have been carefully worked through to distinguish the 12 hours of English programming as the call‑in show, considering the fact that we may not consider the cross‑cultural programming as ethnic, would you submit a revised chart?

180     MR. MILES:  Yes, we will.

181     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you for that.

182     If we continue then ‑‑

183     MR. LOMBARDI:  Excuse me, Commissioner Pennefather, if I could just ask a question here?

184     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I thought I did that.

‑‑‑ Laughter / rires

185     MR. LOMBARDI:  If we were to modify our program schedule and identify our program schedule, and identify specific cultural groups on a specific day, would that satisfy your concerns with regards to meeting the criteria?

186     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  You mean you're changing the description of the cross‑cultural programming?

187     MR. LOMBARDI:  Not changing the description but identifying, as we have in our program schedule ‑‑ I think within the South Asian block, you'll notice we have Tamil and Gujarati programming, we identify specific cultural groups within the block ‑‑ if we were to identify on Monday a cross‑cultural program targeted to the South Asian community, cross‑cultural on Tuesday targeted to Chinese, on Wednesday, Portuguese, if we did that, would that satisfy your ‑‑

188     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I'll have to refer to legal counsel on that because that may represent a change in your application.  So I will leave that question to counsel and come back perhaps on that.

189     MR. MILES:  Or perhaps we could put in some specific ‑‑ they would be specific programming requirements.  We'll do both.  We'll refile and we'll put in that suggestion too, and then you'll have it in front of you.

190     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  As it stands, I prefer to leave the application as such.

191     MR. MILES:  Sure.

192     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And to offer us the option, that if we should find ‑‑ you may, in fact, in your discussion today, as we review it, give us some clarification, but perhaps we should leave it as is and ask for the option of a revision in that sense.

193     Could I then just continue on the chart and the schedule?

194     Concerning another commitment, which is at page 21 of your supplementary brief, specifically, would you be prepared to accept, as a condition of licence, your commitment to do a minimum of 50 percent of all ethnic programming broadcast each week directed to South Asian communities in the Bengali, Gujarati, Hindi, Punjabi, Sinhalese, Tamil, and Urdu languages?

195     MR. MILES:  Yes, we will.

196     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Now, I got that list of languages from the bottom of your schedule.  I'm not assuming that that's all the South Asian languages, but those are the ones you have identified as comprising your 50 percent.

197     MR. MILES:  That is correct.

198     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That is correct?  Now, this adds up to approximately 45 percent of the schedule.  But if we add the section called ‑‑ if we add the South Asian programming, on the chart we have an area called "South Asian, 8 hours," but it's not specifically defined as to a specific language group.  Could you tell us what the nature of this 8 hours ‑‑ I'm at Appendix 7A, South Asian 8 hours, 6.35 percent of schedule.  Could you tell us the nature of these 8 hours and where it may appear on the schedule?

199     MR. MILES:  Just getting my programming people to make sure we're on the same page as you are with regards to the description.

200     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Appendix 7A.

201      

202     MR. MILES:  Yes, thank you.  Paritosh?

203     MR. MEHTA:  Thank you, Gary.

204     Commissioner, if I understand correctly, you're talking about the Friday night program which is from nine to midnight on Friday and Saturday?

205     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Ah, you've answered my question.

206     MR. MEHTA:  Those are dance programs.  The Friday night program is in Punjabi.  It's going to be a cross‑cultural program as well, but largely directed to the Punjabi community.  And the Saturday night program is going to be, again, a dance program for the South Asian community in general.

207     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay.  So what I had was the chart.

208     MR. MEHTA:  Right.

209     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Which had South Asian, 8 hours.  You're saying that translates to the Friday and Saturday dance parties.

210     MR. MEHTA:  That's right.

211     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  If it's South Asian in terms of language, which language are we referring to?

212     MR. MEHTA:  One would be Punjabi ‑‑ the Friday night would be Punjabi and the Saturday night would be Hindi, largely Hindi.

213     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay.

214     Now we'll move to other areas of programming.

215     In your deficiency response at page 5, question 12, you say that you expect that more than 40 percent of your schedule will be devoted to spoken word; and from the chart we see you will have a particular focus on Punjabi programming at 26.19 percent or 33 hours.

216     What is the overall level weekly of your local programming?

217     MR. MILES:  Alain will answer that question.

218     MR. STRATI:  The program will be 100 percent local.  However, I probably should ask Lenny to talk about it.  I mean, there may be opportunities, as CHIN has done with Toronto and Ottawa, there may be opportunities for specific projects or programs, if you will, sort of ‑‑ if you think of a call‑in show, then you have a national call‑in show or a dialogue across different regions.  So there may be opportunities there where the programs would sort of be expansive, and have the local issues or issues of concern in Vancouver also discussed with those in Ontario.

219     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That would be in the call‑in section?  Because I noted in your application, you were considering perhaps a mix of Ottawa, Toronto, Vancouver within that.  But can you give me a overall sense, in the schedule, what the level of local programming is?

220     MR. STRATI:  The level would be 100 percent local.

221     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Now, if we turn to music ‑‑ I guess we'll get back to the Friday night dance party and the Saturday night dance party.  But will there be a particular emphasis on South Asian music in your proposal?

222     MR. MEHTA:  Yes, Commissioner, it will be completely devoted towards the South Asian community in general, but that the cross‑cultural element, that will also take into account other communities, for example, the Urdu‑speaking communities, the Bengali‑speaking communities; in general, everybody from the South Asian communities.

223     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Other than the dance parties, it's totally music?

224     MR. MEHTA:  A couple of music programs that we are ‑‑ if you refer back to the schedule, Commissioner, we have, even from eight to nine on Saturday and again on Sunday, eight to nine, these are also music programs.  But the Saturday night, which is from nine to midnight, is going to be far more contemporary and dance music.  The one from eight to nine is going to be slow‑paced ‑‑ not slow‑paced but largely contemporary.

225     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  But overall, do you see a particular emphasis on South Asian music throughout the schedule then, or other forms of ethnic music?

226     MR. LOMBARDI:  If I could answer that, Commissioner?  Within our South Asian block, of course, there will be strong emphasis on the appropriate musical styles that we feel will appeal to the South Asian communities that we are trying to reach.  But with respect to the other language groups that we're proposing to serve, it'll be a mix of popular music and high content in spoken word.

227     But, again, I think we need to also express the nature of how those associate producer‑modelled shows will come together in cooperation with leaders in the community in finding out exactly what the community is looking for.  So that will dictate whether or not it's a high rotation of music, whether it be popular or classical, or whether there will be more spoken word.

228     MS. ZINIAK:  And also, just to add, often these programs, especially for the broad spectrum and the diversity group, these are the only programs for these communities at times.  So they would be then a mix of spoken word, perhaps music, and issues of the day, because they are the only program for that community.

229     MR. MEHTA:  Can I also add another point to that, Commissioner?

230     These particular programs are chosen with specific intent in mind.  No other radio station right now carries these programs for these particular communities, and the schedule was specifically designed to kind of offset that.

231     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  But according to the deficiency, your schedule is, as you say:

232     "... our station's schedule will focus to a greater degree on spoken‑word programming.

233     "... more than 40% ... will be spoken word."

234     That remains the case?

235     MR. MILES:  That is correct.

236     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  All right.  The independent producers, I think, Mr. Lombardi, you were just about to launch into that, but I have some specific questions.

237     On page 25 of your supplementary brief, you talk about:

238     "Although many portions of the broadcast schedule will be produced in‑house by our station staff, we will also establish partnerships with local independent producers ..."

239     Could you tell us which of your target ethnic communities will feature programs produced by these independent producers?

240     MR. LOMBARDI:  Certainly.  Thank you for that question.

241     We plan to produce in‑house, that is ‑‑ to define "in‑house," that this will be station‑operated with individuals on staff.  We plan to do in‑house programming with our South Asian, cross‑cultural, and our Chinese programming block.

242     The remainder of the block with respect to programs such as German, Italian, Portuguese, Arabic, et cetera, we will work with our associate producers, and that associate producer model is largely based on what CHIN does in Toronto and Ottawa, and is also reflective of what OMNI does with their independent producers in Toronto.

243     So the nature of the associate producer model is one that forms a partnership with individuals from the communities that we want to serve.  We look at that as a meaningful way of developing a relationship with the community through spokespeople from the community.  It all starts with an advisory board that ‑‑

244     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  We'll get to that in a moment.  But what I'd like to know a little bit more about, and as precisely as you can, in working with independent producers, you say on page 26 you will help develop the programming concepts and proposals.  More precisely, what's the process of selection that will be used?

245     As you say, these producers will be producing for the various communities and languages other than the in‑house.  What's the process of selecting?

246     MR. LOMBARDI:  I'll use the model that we used in Ottawa, and that began with a strong advisory board that was gleaned from our involvement in the community.  I know OMNI has great contacts within the Vancouver ethnocultural communities here, and we've identified very strong leaders that will be excellent representatives for us on this new station.  Through them and our expressed interest in serving various ethnocultural communities, we go into those communities, and from those connections, solicit from and find appropriate associate producers who have the skills, the desire, the credibility, and the support of the community to bring on board as producers with us in Vancouver.

247     The next step is to provide them with the support and the infrastructure that they need to be the best possible producer‑broadcaster that they can be, and that's where this radio station will provide all the infrastructure support, technical support, marketing skills, training and sales, and also benefit from our vast experience in this business and impart to them the skills that they would need to be effective as a producer.

248     The significance of the associate producer model versus a brokered model, if you will, is we're making a commitment to serve 18 language groups, regardless of their ability to financially support that programming block.  We believe that by investing in time and energy within that community, eventually we can grow that program and the support for that program into a self‑sustaining business.

249     If we looked at simply the opportunity for brokerage, then it becomes the marketplace determining who gets on the air and when and what they say, and we don't want that.

250     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Let me take that further.  There is a difference, as I understand it.  But from another point of view, since these are associate producers, what is your role, what would be your role, the station's, in terms of the content of the programs?

251     MR. LOMBARDI:  Well, I think we completely have to take full responsibility of every spoken word that is uttered on our station.

252     Our role is in the selection, training, and guidance process.

253     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Would you be influencing the selection of content of the programs?

254     MR. LOMBARDI:  It's a collaborative thing.  It's something that, through our advisory board and our knowledge of the associate producers, is a working relationship.  We want the program, first and foremost, to be reflective of the community that they're serving, number one.

255     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  How would you monitor that?  If you do want it to be reflective of the community and you ‑‑ how will you monitor that success?

256     MR. LOMBARDI:  Feedback ‑‑ our programming director, feedback with the associate producers, call‑in shows, connecting with the community so that, you know, the information can flow freely.  We want to know we're doing the right thing.

257     We also will look for telltale landmarks, if you will, that show and express the success of the program, public service announcements, how active is the producer in reflecting the activities going on in the community?  You know, these are program structures that will be the very minimum that we would expect.  And when we see that type of reaction, we know we're on the right track.  If we don't see it, we know we have to go back to the drawing board.

258     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I think that's what I'm coming to.  If you don't see it, then my previous question, "What is your influence on the content of the programs?" comes into play.

259     MR. LOMBARDI:  I think working in a cooperative environment with the associate producer to achieve those goals ‑‑ I mean, we're going to set standards for what we want to accomplish on that radio station and work with our associate producers so that they meet those goals.  If they have difficulty meeting those goals, we'll stay active and reassess the problems and never lose focus on the community we want to serve.  We may have to change our associate producer ‑‑

260     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That, I guess, is the bottom line.  You're keeping the focus on, as an ethnic broadcaster ‑‑

261     MR. LOMBARDI:  Yeah.  Perhaps Madeline may want to also elaborate?

262     MS. ZINIAK:  Yes, Commissioner Pennefather, you're quite correct that this is an interesting challenge.  And throughout our experiences in the past, we have identified that, indeed, the independent producer base within communities don't work insularly.  They are extremely accountable to their community, they're extremely accountable to us as broadcasters.  The audiences that they serve are extremely forthright in giving us feedback on what they are or are not doing.

263     And I think that ‑‑ we have checks and balances within our procedures, number one, when we do choose an independent producer, for example, we don't look only at the demographic as a large community.  We also look at the reputation or the talent base of that individual independent producer.

264     We have wonderful experiences, for example, where indeed we talk about the evolution of multilingual or independent producers who are from an ethnocultural base where, for example, they have started from a newspaper and then have gone on to radio or done television.  A recent example of a Romanian producer, Raoul Dubnik, who started in radio, had a newspaper, and now is doing television.  His reputation in the community is now, you know, almost 8 years old, and we get direct feedback in that way.

265     To enhance that whole experience also, when we have ‑‑ we created an advisory body that is also responsible to the audiences.  They actually are the guides and the interface with the independent producers and the audiences.  Audiences will come, especially in areas of conflictual situations, and come and let us know what is indeed the quality of the program and what is the feedback of the program.  So when we do set up viewer feedback mechanisms, I think that this is all very important.

266     Also, as the whole base of the station, quite frankly, as they continue to contribute in different symposiums ‑‑ there's always an opportunity to check on the quality and the credibility and what these producers are doing.  It is a highly competitive environment.  Any time there's one producer who isn't quite fulfilling his mandate, you can believe that there are two or three others ready to jump in, you know, to be able to do that kind of programming.

267     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you very much.

268     If I move on to your schedule and look at the morning and afternoon ‑‑ the morning show and the afternoon drive show, which is described on page 22 of your supplementary brief, it indicates Punjabi and English, though you say the programs would largely be in Punjabi; is that correct?

269     MR. MILES:  Correct.

270     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Could you tell me, though, what the nature of the English programming would be, considering, particularly, since you've raised the point in your brief that English‑language programming remains as the most effective way to reach a larger group of South Asian communities.  What will the English‑language component be, exactly?

271     MR. MILES:  I'll now introduce Paritosh to walk you through that.

272     MR. MEHTA:  Thank you, Gary.

273     Commissioner, these programs are supposed to be as inclusive as possible ‑‑

274     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  We're having trouble seeing you.  That's better.

275     MR. MEHTA:  That's better.

276     These programs are designed to be as inclusive as possible.  The English word is going to be very minimal in the whole program setup.  Largely we want to restrict the English language to the younger audiences, because many of the younger audiences do not speak the language.  They understand the language but do not speak the language.  We don't want to exclude them out.  If there's a call‑in show or there's a panel discussion on the particular radio program and they can only speak in English, we won't exclude them.  We will bring them on for reflection, and so on and so forth.

277     So the English is going to be very minimal, but it's largely going to be Punjabi and Hindi in that respective hour.

278     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So the morning show consists of ‑‑

279     MR. MEHTA:  Punjabi.

280     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Punjabi.  But what are the elements?  News?

281     MR. MEHTA:  There's going to be news, weather, current affairs, panel discussions, you know, depending upon the current topics of the day or of the week, music; and similarly, in the afternoon, it's going to be in a similar way except it's going to be in Hindi.

282     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I'm sorry, in the afternoon it's going to be ...

283     MR. MEHTA:  Midday is going to be in the Hindi language.

284     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Oh, yes.  I follow you.  I have the midday, Hindi, and I have Punjabi in the morning and the afternoon.

285     MR. MEHTA:  That's right.

286     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Those are the peak times in radio programming, so you can understand why we want a little bit more of a description of what's the morning show and what's the afternoon drive.

287     So you're telling us it's news, weather, sports ...

288     MR. MEHTA:  The Hindi program is going to be local community ‑‑

289     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I'm just focusing now on the two Punjabi/English programs, morning and afternoon drive shows.

290     MR. MEHTA:  Right.  The morning Punjabi program is going to be local community news, international news, local events, community perspective, man‑on‑the‑street interviews, guest experts and role models, phone‑in contests, local and national sports, public service announcements.  This is the makeup of the morning program.

291     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay, thank you.

292     You do say, on page 5 of the deficiency brief, deficiency letter, and I think it's mentioned in the brief, you are going to have open‑line programming, and you plan to have, according to the deficiency response, 25 hours approximately per week, including the weekday morning call‑in, which we've been discussing this morning.

293     So that weekly cross‑cultural call‑in talk show is 12 hours.  So if it's 25 hours open‑line programming, could you tell us where we would find the remaining open line programming?

294     MR. MILES:  Yes, I'm going to ask Mr. Lombardi to answer that one because it has specific reference to the individual block programmings of the different languages.

295     MR. LOMBARDI:  Thank you, Gary.

296     I think, within our South Asian block, we would also include call‑in topics within those shows on a regular basis, so that would be the remainder of the 12 hours.

297     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So it would be in a third language, in English, in both?

298     MR. LOMBARDI:  I think it'll be in both.  You know, English is an official language of India so, you know, it's kind of used interactively, and sometimes callers who, depending on their age, might call in feeling more comfortable in the English language and may be able to converse, answering questions asked in Punjabi but respond in English.  You know, we provide for that type of flexibility.

299     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So, again, and just thinking on that point too, on the flexibility, if it's 70 percent third‑language programming, that's 30 percent English‑language programming, and we have about 12 hours of that taken care of in our cross‑cultural shows, so the balance of English‑language programming would be in the morning and afternoon drive shows, as you've described?

300     MR. LOMBARDI:  For the most part.  I'd like Alain perhaps to elaborate.

301     MR. STRATI:  That's correct.  I mean, as Paritosh has mentioned, there would be components of English within third‑language programs and there are English‑specific programs, like the cross‑cultural talk show in the morning.  You know, in terms of 30 percent, the 30 percent is to allow for ‑‑ because of the nature of, you know, languages in South Asian communities, we feel it's, in terms of a flexibility to serve those communities, it's important to have, you know, the flexibility to provide more English programming to serve those communities.

302     We do have some English‑specific programming in our schedule.  We do have, as we've discussed ‑‑ within certain programs, there will be some English.  You know, in terms of getting a percentage, we thought at the highest level 30 percent would be in English.  In fact, that would be sort of the maximum amount of English that we have in our schedule.

303     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay, thank you for that.

304     We'll turn now to the Chinese programming, and your ethnic programming chart again at Appendix 7A, indicates 16 hours of Chinese programming.  In the deficiency letter, pages 3 and 4, you propose limitations on your broadcasting of Chinese programming, which you indicate later at page 32 would minimize any potential economic impact for the stations, and I'll get back to that point later.

305     These limits that you proposed are 20 percent of the broadcast week and 20 percent of the Monday‑to‑Friday 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. periods, and you've agreed to a condition of licence to this effect.  Now, this would mean 25 hours each week of Chinese programming.

306     What my question is, considering your argumentation both this morning and in your supplementary brief at pages 13 and 14 that the Chinese communities are already well‑served, therefore your emphasis on South Asian communities, why do you feel there's a need for more Chinese programming?

307     MR. MILES:  Madeline will address that one.  I think you'll find that we have said there's 20 percent ‑‑ when you do the math, as we have done when we actually put the schedule out, it's far closer to, I think, 13 percent.

308     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yes, I think it's 12.7.

309     MS. ZINIAK:  I think, number one, our whole approach to our schedule unto this station is one to be ‑‑ one that is very cohesive for diversity.

310     Chinese, admittedly, is one of the pillars as far as an ethnocultural community here in the Vancouver‑Lower Mainland area, and we feel that, as far as our mandate goes, and principally for the station, it's very important not to exclude the Chinese community.  There's opportunities, knowingly from the community themselves.  In the Chinese community, there's a great attempt not to be insular, a great attempt ‑‑ and this is happening, frankly, in organizations and fund‑raisings where communities are crossing over and working together.

311     We feel that, also, another important point is to be able to have freedom of expression, diverse ethnocultural views, and ‑‑ specifically to the Chinese community ‑‑ I think that OMNI and CHIN also has a track record of not shying away at times from controversial issues.  Sometimes we're the only one in the market that would deal with the Falun Gong issue, for example.

312     So sometimes when people look at ethnocultural media, I think it's important to appreciate the diversity of opinion that does exist and be able to harness the kind of freedom of expression that allows for maturing media, which Chinese is indeed.

313     We do have limitations, but we also feel it's very important ‑‑ it's a large community ‑‑ to really include them in this diverse station.  I think the other communities as well can learn a lot from the Chinese community in this kind of interaction.

314     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay.  Just to get back to our mathematics, Mr. Miles ‑‑ thank you, Madam Ziniak.

315     The schedule and the chart do show 16 hours, which is closer to 13 percent, but you have committed to 20 percent, which is 25 hours over the week.  Can you clarify where we might find the balance?

316     MR. MILES:  Actually, we would be quite prepared to say that it's 13 ‑‑ or 12.7 percent or 13 percent of our scheduling.  Because when we actually went through and did our scheduling and allowed for all of the other languages that we wanted in there, that's what we ended up with.

317     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Can I understand what you're saying, that it's going to be 16 hours and 12.7 percent?

318     MR. MILES:  Correct.

319     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Now, you've put a limitation of 20 percent in your deficiency of the broadcast week, no more than 20 percent and no more than 20 percent 6 a.m. to 6 p.m.

320     Are you maintaining those conditions of licence?

321     MR. STRATI:  Again, those are ‑‑ you know, sometimes they're sort of maximum levels.  Sometimes there will be certain weeks where there will be ‑‑ for example, Chinese New Year, there could be opportunities for a greater degree of programming.  That's why, in terms of a normal week like this, where you have 12 percent or 13 percent of programming for the Chinese community as opposed to perhaps other opportunities, we thought, at the most, we'd go to 20 percent.

322     What Gary said is ‑‑ I think we'd be ‑‑ for us the importance is to have the opportunity to serve the Chinese communities.  In terms of a condition of licence, in terms of sort of restrictions, we'd be glad to ‑‑ if it's appropriate, we'd discuss that as well.

323     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Well, we have on record your commitment to the 20 percent both for the week and for the Monday‑to‑Friday 6 to 6 p.m. are you maintaining that commitment for condition of licence?

324     MR. STRATI:  We've talked about ‑‑ given the intervention from Fairchild, we've talked about that significantly.  Initially our commitment was to 20 percent limitation.

325     You know, there's also some economic ramifications in terms of that, and I don't know if it's appropriate to come back later and have a ‑‑

326     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  We will come back to the economic, but we'll leave it as the 20 percent limitation that you have made.

327     My point was that you have, on your chart in your schedule, shown us the number of hours that you have here as 16 ‑‑ or less than that, but you're saying the 20 percent is the flexibility which you feel you need?

328     MR. STRATI:  That's correct.

329     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Let's go on to another point about ‑‑ it comes from the ethnic broadcasting policy again, the area of monitoring local issues.  We touched on it in our discussion of working with independent producers.

330     As set out in the Commission's ethnic broadcasting policy, a primary responsibility of ethnic broadcasters relates to your ability to serve and reflect the communities in the station's local programming.

331     Could you describe for us what specific measures will you, as the licensee, establish to ensure that local issues and concerns are reflected in your programming?

332     MR. MILES:  Certainly we're willing to establish a local advisory board that Lenny has discussed, and the use thereof to make sure that we have a pulse on the communities.

333     And now Madeline will expand.

334     MS. ZINIAK:  I would indeed ‑‑ thank you very much ‑‑ like to expand and include our experiences, but also I'd like appropriately to then ask Renato Zane, our Vice‑President of News, to add some specifics.

335     I think, number one, that it's important to state that indeed the advisory committee process is a very important one, but also I think it's very important in what one selects as advisors.  I think that, we have learned, is key in having an excellent advisory group.  And I think throughout the years we have worked with organizations, both national, both provincial and local, because ethnic issues and ethnic journalists, quite frankly, need the breadth, that there is a lot of interchange.

336     To begin, we've had a lot of feedback already, and it's not a secret that we've been here in British Columbia the last ten years, somewhat dealing and interchanging with a variety of community organizations, knowingly who are credible reflectors, if you will, of community needs.  Those advisors who understand the sensitivities of the community, who also understand media and also understand the issues.  And your advisory committee, quite frankly, is only as good as the advisors that you choose, and I think that we have been very successful, and not being tokenistic, in those who we have chosen and those who we understand can really move programming forward.

337     Secondly, also, I think we are ‑‑ have a lot of accountability to the organizations that we sit in and work with presently.  Examples are the National Family Initiative on Violence, we work with many community members there, and we've worked with them in both television and radio.  And I think it behooves us to be credible to them, and the organizations that we've worked in parallel streams with for different objectives give us the feedback as well.

338     We do have procedures ‑‑ I think we take a look, for example, at viewer feedback, for example ‑‑ and I'm going to ask Renato to speak shortly.  But we do have web sites that we'll be setting up for viewer feedback, you know, viewer phoneback calls that we do have, and I think it's important to note that the audiences do personally speak to the independent producers.  Then also, very important, the culture within broadcasters that we have evolved, there has to be a level of comfort for those in the community to address, you know, Lenny, the managers of the broadcasters as well, and to one‑on‑one at different social functions or situations, to just come forward and tell us exactly what they think.

339     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay.  Could I just ask you a couple of specific questions about the advisory board, though?  As mentioned in this morning's presentation, Mr. Miles noted the help of our local advisory board.  I assume this is the current existing advisory board?

340     MR. MILES:  That is correct, yes.

341     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Will you have a different advisory board?

342     MR. MILES:  Completely separate, completely different, with a different Chair.

343     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And how will you determine which cultural groups will be represented on your advisory board?

344     MR. MILES:  I'm going to let Madeline speak to this one because she's had the most experience and contacts within the community over the last couple of years here in Vancouver.

345     MS. ZINIAK:  I think, number one, it's very important to note that these advisors do not represent the community, they're there to reflect the community, and I think it's a very important distinction because there aren't any elections happening.  And I think when we take a look at the combination of advisors, yes, we will have ethno‑specific advisors, and we have found also what has been very instructive and meaningful for us also are advisors who are intercultural, who have issues, who have dealt on government committees, who really have top‑of‑mind best interests for multiculturalism and diversity.  And I can give you examples of those.

346     Indeed, we have ethno‑specific members of not only the larger communities but also the smaller communities, and because sometimes you can't have 20 advisors, which, you know, renders an advisory group not as functional, you do choose individuals who are intercultural and can cross over in different areas.

347     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  What is the size of the advisory board that you propose?

348     MS. ZINIAK:  Well, we have discussed this at length, and I think, as far as the number goes, we're looking ‑‑ as traditionally as we've had ‑‑ we've had anywhere from 10 to 13 or 14 participants.

349     We've also initiated also sub committees, and sometimes we have learned that it's very important at times, when you're dealing with some targeted issues, that the advisors themselves would set up a sub committee, and then we would invite other members of the community.  So indeed we have developed a process and procedure where we have a core group but also extend the communication to those who have expertise perhaps in a different area and set up sub committees.

350     This may sound like a lot of meetings, but, in fact, I think we go forward with at least two annual meetings, and then per issue or per controversy, we would set up a specific sub committee once.

351     MR. MILES:  Certainly one of the areas we're going to have to make sure we satisfy is our broad range that our program schedule exemplifies, so there will naturally be representatives of our primary programming, which is South Asian, and a smaller amount of Chinese.  But we may well have to go up to 15.  So we put 10 to 13, but it may well get up to 15 in order to satisfy the rest of our programming initiatives.

352     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And will CHIN have a seat on the advisory board or be appointing ‑‑ have any participation in the role of the advisory board?

353     MR. LOMBARDI:  I certainly would be advising with respect to the best selection for advisory board members.  I think 10 to 15 is a sizable group, a terrific number with respect to the number of language groups that we propose to serve.  But CHIN will actually be participating in the management team as a whole, so we'll have pretty much hands‑on with regards to advisory board as well as the whole process of selecting our associate producers.

354     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Let's just keep going on that point then.  You segued right into my next area, which is CHIN's role in this.

355     I believe that what we're looking at here is a partnership, and we'll get back to the ownership question later specifically.  But looking at 70 percent/30 percent, and 30 percent CHIN.  Now, I guess one would say other models in that proportion, you have a key player or major player at 70 and the player at 30 would normally be playing a somewhat minor role.

356     From what we're seeing, both in this morning's presentation and in the supplementary brief and deficiency letters, CHIN has a very strong role to play.  So perhaps it's important that we understand, in a little bit more detail, what your role is in this, and if you could take us through it?

357     I think, if I'm right, in this morning's presentation, you did add some clarifications.  You say "CHIN will participate on the management team."

358     Can you describe to us then, is this the operations manager that was noted on page 3 of the supplementary brief?

359     MR. LOMBARDI:  I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.

360     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  In the supplementary brief on page 3, or is it in the ‑‑ hang on.

361     Yes, the supplementary brief, page 3.

362     MR. MILES:  Perhaps it would be useful, while they're looking in that specific request, to just give you a bit of a background on it.

363     We were absolutely thrilled that CHIN agreed to come along with us on this one.  There's no way in the world that we could do it without this kind of expertise and without the expertise and relationships that OMNI has developed in the community.  So this is 70/30 on paper, but it is more an act of sharing responsibility of how we're going to do it.

364     In all of our enterprises, we set up a cross‑functional team where we have a representative of CHIN, we'll have somebody from OMNI, we'll have somebody from Rogers Broadcasting as we develop and work along the lines of filling out the program schedule, setting up the advisory board, getting names and nominations.  And that process will move forward, right up until the time that we actually put the station on the air, and then I'll turn it over to Lenny because he's had experience in how this works.

365     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Just so I'm understanding, Mr. Miles, though, when the station is on the air, is Rogers in charge of the day‑to‑day operations of the station?

366     MR. MILES:  The person that will be in charge of the day‑to‑day operations will be the operations manager that we will collectively have chosen to thoroughly represent the interests of the ethnic community in the way that business is being done by CHIN.

367     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So the operations manager that is described, as I said, on page 3, is from CHIN.  It says "launch and development of the station."

368     Will this operations manager then continue as the operations manager of the station?

369     MR. LOMBARDI:  It will be a work‑in‑progress, Madam Commissioner.  It's something that CHIN is going to have hands‑on, especially in the first year ‑‑ actually, in the first two years in developing the concept of associate producers and developing our program schedules.  So CHIN is going to be working on that.

370     But I think the management team and the operations manager are going to be gleaned from the local community.  We're looking at a local management team.  The role that CHIN will play is in the start‑up and on the ongoing management participation of major management decisions with regard to programming schedules and just running the basic business of the operation.

371     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  In what way, Mr. Lombardi.

372     MR. LOMBARDI:  In every way.

373     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So CHIN will be involved in managing the station, CHIN will be involved in programming areas as well?

374     MR. LOMBARDI:  Absolutely.

375     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Which are those programming areas?

376     MR. LOMBARDI:  CHIN will have a seat in the management team and we'll have a voice in the decisions and with respect to how the station evolves and is managed on a day‑to‑day basis.

377     CHIN may have, in the first couple of years, someone permanently in the Vancouver area participating in this manner as we build our local management team, and then in later years we'll be participating in quarterly meetings.  But we envision that our participation, reflective of our interests in this radio station, will offer the full gamut.

378     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Can you tell me which programs in particular CHIN would supply to the station?

379     MR. LOMBARDI:  CHIN won't be supplying any programs whatsoever.  We will be collaborating on the development of programs that could be shared amongst our interests, because the resources are there.  You know, we look at the opportunities of just sharing news, for example.  One example was the recent assassination of the ex‑premier of Lebanon.  Our Lebanese producer in Ottawa was able to get an interview with the ambassador and was also granting interviews with much of the mainstream media.  That was a tremendous resource that could have been shared with the rest of the broadcasters in facilitating that story to interested people.

380     So there are programming opportunities for us to engage in, but in no means is CHIN preparing to export programs from Ontario to Vancouver ‑‑

381     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Not even the call‑in show?

382     MR. LOMBARDI:  Other than ‑‑ I was just going to finish ‑‑ the call‑in show.

383     Of course, all of that fits and may not fit, depending on time shifting and what programs are currently on the air in Ottawa and Toronto.  We can do it effectively in Ottawa and Toronto because there's no time shift.  It could work out conveniently for us here because we have South Asian programming in Toronto between 7 and 11 p.m., and that would shift nicely with our projected South Asian programming here, so there will be an opportunity for, you know, the occasional call‑in show that could include callers from Toronto.

384     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yes, I think there's also mention of using the radio features on CHIN.

385     MR. LOMBARDI:  Those features are special.  Vancouver might be able to develop great interviews with visiting local or international artists here.  For example, Jazzy B. is a huge star in Toronto, is a local boy here.

386     Interesting perspectives that we could get from this station that we could share with the Toronto station that wouldn't normally be available to us.

387     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Just so I understand, again, there will be sharing of some programming.

388     MR. LOMBARDI:  On special occasions.  That's what's envisioned.

389     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  But there may be some sharing on the English cross‑cultural programming?  Because I think in your supplementary brief, you make the point of bringing Vancouver audiences into the cross‑cultural programming from Toronto and Ottawa.

390     MR. LOMBARDI:  Commissioner Pennefather, these opportunities are there and available for us to explore and develop.  It's certainly a very attractive notion to be able to connect the multicultural community to specific topics here in Vancouver with their cousins, if you will, in Toronto, and explore those similarities and look at how different ‑‑ how the communities handle similar problems.

391     You know, we always want to keep an eye on what those potentials might be, and certainly we would investigate every opportunity.

392     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So just to recap, CHIN will be involved in day‑to‑day operations of the station?

393     MR. LOMBARDI:  Correct.

394     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  The operations manager being one role that will be provided by CHIN?

395     MR. LOMBARDI:  No, I think from that perspective, operations management would be a local individual from Vancouver.

396     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And some of the programming, there may be some sharing of programming?

397     MR. LOMBARDI:  Yes.

398     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I'm going to move now to synergies, both in terms of Rogers and CHIN, and I'm looking at page 7 of the supplementary brief.  You've indicated that the new station will benefit from synergies from your existing Rogers stations.  For example, in the area of programming, you mention news gathering, such as local, traffic, and weather information, could be shared with your Vancouver‑based news station, News 1130, and that federal government interviews, reports could be provided by OMNI Television news bureau.

399     So I'm going to ask you to describe for us how this will work.  For example, will the local traffic and weather be provided exclusively to you by your News 1130 station, and will this be done in English?  I just need to get a little bit more detail on how that's going to work, Mr. Miles.

400     MR. MILES:  Thank you.  I'm going to turn this over to Renato in just a moment.  But I think if you just stop for a second and say, what is Rogers going to contribute to this great relationship that we have?  Here in Vancouver, we have facilities, we have studios, we have connections with the community, we have sales management, and we have sales training, all of which we can use for these new people that are coming on.  We have a very extensive newsroom, and we're going to add to ‑‑ there will be a separate news department for this radio station over and above the News 1130 facilities, but we do have this extensive ability to gather news up and to share it.

401     So Renato can walk you through all of the synergies that we've got.

402     MR. ZANE:  Thank you, Gary.

403     Well, we see this as a tremendous opportunity to really focus on local news‑gathering directed at these specific audiences that we've referred to in the driving periods.

404     The way that it would work with 1130 would be that, yes, they would provide information to the news team at 93.1, but the news team would then use these resources to then convey the message to their audiences in the most effective way.

405     If I could use an example from a story that will be covered here in Vancouver in the next few days, which is the Air India decision, for example.  If this station were up and running today, what we would do would be to use the expertise of News 1130 in covering courtroom scenarios of the legal coverage of 1130, and combine that with the penetrating power of the multilingual reporters in their communities.  So the reporters that would be working for 93.1 would be working with the victims' families and the local community, Punjabi‑speaking or Hindi‑speaking, and in the newsroom they would put together the two elements.  The courtroom reporting from News 1130 plus the community reporting.

406     The station, 93.1, would then also have the ability to take this further and to do language discussions on the decision and incorporate to that coverage information that comes from Ottawa on national security issues or federal cabinet reaction, clips with South Asian Ministers or South Asian Members of Parliament in Ottawa that could then supplement the local coverage.

407     In addition, we would have access to information from other South Asian communities in the country, specifically Ottawa, through the resources of CHIN, or through the resources of OMNI Television in Toronto.  We could take it further, if we want to, because we have some access to international sources to see how that decision plays in India, for example.

408     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Let me start back with the proposed station.  Could you tell me how many programming staff you will have at the proposed station hired exclusively for the new FM?

409     MR. MILES:  Joe Mulvihill has the answers for the staffing requirements.

410     MR. MULVILHILL:  We are going to have a staff of ‑‑ in the news department, we will have a staff of three, including a news director, newscaster, and news representative.  We will also have six additional program hosts and morning show hosts.

411     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So you will have your own news staff at the new station?

412     MR. MULVILHILL:  Yes.

413     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Could you just go through the news staff again?

414     MR. MULVILHILL:  We'll have a news director and two newscasters.

415     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Will there be any news‑gathering staff, or are you going to depend on 1130 for news gathering?

416     MR. MULVILHILL:  That will be a dual function of the newscaster/news reporter.

417     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Would you say that the new station would have its own independent news service?

418     MR. MULVILHILL:  Yes.

419     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Will you be in the same facilities as your current Vancouver stations?

420     MR. MILES:  Yes.

421     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So, again, and we get back to breaking this out, the new station would get news from 1130.  Can you tell us the percentage of your overall news content that would be provided by News 1130?

422     MR. ZANE:  Thank you, Commissioner.  That's always a difficult question to answer because news varies so much from day to day.

423     We would use the experience that we've developed at OMNI Television and at CHIN Radio to use this as a base for information and then rely on the associate producers and the existing on‑site staff to work with that information to craft the news services that are required.

424     It's also important that we stay local, and because the strength of News 1130 is to provide a lot of very excellent local coverage, we would use that strength as the basis to then provide information in language to both the Punjabi‑ and Hindi‑speaking communities.

425     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Again, 1130, I assume the news would be in English.

426     MR. ZANE:  That's correct.

427     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  It would be provided to the new station in English?

428     MR. ZANE:  The information is in English but the delivery would be in language.  For example, if we take ‑‑ the example I was raising before about courtroom coverage.  The interviews with lawyers and with other interested parties would be made available to the radio station.  The radio station staff would then take that information and then make it available in the languages that are important to their listeners.

429     Similarly, access to other news‑gathering services, like Broadcast News, for example, would then be translated and made available to the audiences for 93.1.

430     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And how about with OMNI news?  You mention that you will also have resources available from OMNI Television.  How will this work?

431     MR. ZANE:  Well, we're very proud of our Ottawa bureau in particular.  In Ottawa, we have access to, as I was mentioning before, South Asian Ministers, South Asian embassies, and the South Asian community in Ottawa.  The concept that we're working with is that we would provide interview clips or access to these newsmakers that we record in our daily work at OMNI Television, and we would profile the audio to the radio station here in Vancouver, and then the radio station can use that content, as it sees fit, to shape it as it needs to meet the needs of the local audience.

432     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you for that.

433     Now, on the news again, I'm back to Mr. Lombardi.  I think again on that same page we talk about CHIN as a source of news.  We talked about the shared programming between the new FM and Rogers' and CHIN's other stations.

434     In the case of CHIN, you mentioned that this programming could be there but would not likely be more than 10 percent.  I believe this is in the deficiency response at page 4.  So, again, that 10 percent, the kinds of programming that you would be offering would be ‑‑ I just wanted to clarify that once again.  Now we have some news, as mentioned in the supplementary brief.  What are the other kinds of programming that you would be sharing within that 10 percent?

435     MR. LOMBARDI:  Besides news features?

436     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yes.

437     MR. LOMBARDI:  In that respect?  Entertainment features that we find are very interesting as we currently have artists, as I mentioned before, Jazzy B., a local boy from Vancouver, very popular in Toronto in the South Asian community.  Entertainment features that we're able to develop in Toronto that might be of interest to the Vancouver station.

438     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I'm considering this note of the 10 percent, would you be willing to accept a condition of licence that CHIN programming, on the proposed Vancouver station, would not exceed more than 10 percent of the broadcast week?

439     MR. LOMBARDI:  Certainly.

440     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  At this point ‑‑ we'll go on to Canadian talent development, but we'll take a break at this point.

441     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, we'll take a 15‑minute coffee break.  Nous reprendrons en 15 minutes.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1120 / Suspension à 1120

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 11:35 / Reprise à 1135

442     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  Allons, s'il vous plait.

443     We will resume the questioning now.

444     Commissioner Pennefather.

445     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

446     We'll go to Canadian talent development, and I have questions on three of the proposed initiatives:  The independent production of radio features and programs, and the independent production of PSAs, and finally, the media literacy course.

447     Now, if we look at two of these, the production of radio features and programs and the independent production of public service announcements, in reading the description of these projects they would appear to be absent the basic requirement, that is, the development of artistic talent and the development of artistic musical talent, which usually is the prerequisite for Canadian talent development.

448     The independent production of radio features and programs is described on page 27, and the independent production of PSAs is described on page 30.

449     These productions of features and PSAs, a second point of concern, is that we could very likely see these as appropriately considered as programming costs.  Programs developed and, pursuant to our discussions earlier, particularly with Mr. Lombardi, programs to develop what you call the developmental process relationship and the reflection of community.  So, in other words, it would appear that these two projects are really more associated with programming and offering the programming that is required to reflect the interests of the local community, yet you presented them as CTD.

450     Would you care to clarify, would you care to comment on why you consider these to be CTD projects, both the features and the PSAs?

451     MR. MILES:  Yes, I'll ask Mr. Strati to go into more detail.

452     But in terms of the first point, which they are not considered to be musical Canadian talent, as this station is going to be primarily talk, we took the journalistic approach to the development of Canadian talent, so that's one thing that Alain will discuss.

453     The other one, on the PSAs, the difference between this and ordinary PSAs is we're going to give it back to these independent producers and the people who develop them to use throughout the entire system, as many of them will be conversant in moving about in different media.

454     Alain?

455     MR. STRATI:  Thanks, Gary.

456     You know, we've developed the OMNI 2 funds, and many of those elements that we did for OMNI 2, in terms of independent production, were reflected in some of our initiatives.

457     As Gary mentioned, you know, ethnic radio does have a strong spoken word component to it.  What we try to do with these is to really nurture training for independent producers, so it's an opportunity for them to do, in terms of development of their talent, it really is an opportunity for independent producers to develop interesting stories and features.

458     In terms of our programming costs, you know, these are features or programs or issues that would be sort of outside of what normally we would do.  So we're talking perhaps about a longer radio feature or radio documentary which we provide the funding for, for that independent producer.  The independent producer would maintain, much like we've done with OMNI, to remain the copyright for it; and, as Gary has mentioned, can go and try to sell the program to other sources, other radio sources, as a documentary.

459     So it's an opportunity for them to train and develop their production skills in the spoken word context.

460     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  But you will agree with me that we had exactly that discussion previously with Mr. Lombardi in terms of your schedule and your programming and your approach to independent producers as part of the normal course of doing business?  Exactly what you just described, we discussed earlier as the program plan.  So why are these features ‑‑ albeit I understand how they work and so on ‑‑ Canadian talent development?

461     MR. STRATI:  Madeline can certainly talk to it because she has dealt a lot with independent producers at OMNI.  The independent producers and the programs that are provided are weekly programs that are current issues ‑‑ you know, some music content, et cetera, so it's a reflection of what's going on in the community.

462     These are specific researched initiatives, documentaries, discussions on issues and, you know, historical elements, so it's a little bit like ‑‑ you know, there's historic minutes.  So we're talking about something that's going way over and above what normally would be a part of the specific content for a program.  So it's an independent producer coming to us ‑‑ it could be one of the independent producers here, but it certainly could be a producer in the community ‑‑ comes to us and says, "I have a great idea for a ‑‑ I want to research a documentary."  And Maddy can talk to that.  And it's giving them the funding to provide that project.

463     MS. ZINIAK:  Might I just add that often, I think, when we approach the talent base in Canada for ethnocultural journalists, often the point of entry, as I've mentioned before, is either print or radio.  Certainly this fund could be available to those who are already participating in media.  But more importantly, what we thought of when we created this, was to give the opportunity to sort of walk and then run, for individuals who are very interested ‑‑ because often it is, of course, a mission of love, a mission of being able to bring forward the kind of issues that are important to the community.

464     This is the entry point for many producers, in the sense that they're interested in projecting, let's say, a public service announcement.  Not as difficult, perhaps, to produce as a program.  We've had great experiences where producers have started with PSAs and have gone on to do television.

465     A great example is a PSA that we just produced, was United Nations acclaimed, called "The Three Amigos," which dealt with AIDS awareness internationally.  A great example.

466     First you start with a PSA, then you move on.  And I think we are indeed developing and nurturing talent this way.  You're giving accessibility to a medium in a way that is very digestible, and it's sort of, you know, the beginning of evolving talent, who then will be evolved and developed into greater things.  I think access is a very big deal in ethnic media, and I think this is one way to get point of entry.

467     Also, when we take a look at some of the documentaries, the smaller features that we've talked about, this is also a way to bring issues forward that won't warrant a program in the end, perhaps, but it's also starting with those who don't really understand, perhaps, the whole culture of Canadian media, and it's a very gentle way of entering into this milieu, because sometimes with a professional journalist who come from other countries, it's a very different game in Canada, in North America, and this is a gentle way of acculturating and integrating these journalists ‑‑ seasoned journalists as well as new journalists ‑‑ into the Canadian media milieu.  We speak from situations that we've been privy to and experienced with.

468     MR. MILES:  I think I understand the issue that you're concerned with, which is, we have, on one hand, trying to develop these hour‑long programs and these independent producers, which is what we do, and that's how we get the licence.  On the second one, it's from these independent producers, someone may come forward with an idea to say, "I'd like to do a documentary on the tsunami relief that we did in this particular community."

469     So what we will do is we will say that none of these can be approved without a further vetting process by the advisory board as to the quality and differentiation of it as a special program as compared with local programming.

470     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I take that point, Mr. Miles, but I think really what the focus is, is that, as you well know, in the radio licensing process we look at Canadian talent development projects, and the definition we have of that is artistic talent, musical talent development.

471     What I was really focusing on was how you saw these particular projects, and then we went into how these projects are different from the programming that you would normally do.

472     What I was interested in is how you justified these projects specifically as Canadian talent development under the rules that you very well know are Canadian talent development definitions under the policies of the Commission.

473     So what I've heard is your justification in terms of journalism and point of entries for it; am I correct?

474     MR. MILES:  That is correct.  It is the same issue we have with our own news stations, when we have to do Canadian talent development.  To a music thing, it just doesn't make any kind of sense.  So we spend our Canadian talent development funds there, in the journalistic schools.  And it's the same thing here.  We're trying to develop this journalistic approach to radio.

475     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Now, in the event that the Commission would not consider these initiatives as eligible CTD, would you still go ahead with them?

476     MR. MILES:  Yes, and we will recommit the money to an eligible CTD benefit.

477     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Would you also still go ahead with a media literacy course, if we determined that it was not CTD, as such?

478     MR. MILES:  Absolutely.

479     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So that if any of these initiatives were seen as not eligible CTD, will your overall 7‑year CTD budget be reduced by a level equal to the disqualified initiative expenditures?

480     MR. MILES:  You're raising the bar fairly high but, yes, we will make that commitment, because we are absolutely steadfast in our belief that the benefits that we had outlined would actually help and encourage Canadian talent, as we understood it under the definition of our radio station.

481     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So you will maintain your 7‑year CTD budget at $700,000, as proposed ‑‑

482     MR. MILES:  Yes.

483     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:   ‑‑ by condition of licence?

484     MR. MILES:  Yes.

485     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Now, back to the independent production of radio features and programs, a detail on this, so that we look at it both as such and potentially CTD.

486     But here you note, on page 28, that you budgeted $50,000 here for these, and you indicate that the budget allocation may vary from year to year.  What would be the minimum annual CTD expenditure for the initiative?  Let's assume that we went ahead and, for the purposes of this discussion, call it CTD.  With that variance you note on page 28, what would be the minimum expenditure?

487     MR. STRATI:  I think a minimum expenditure would be in the neighbourhood of $40,000, $45,000.  I think we're talking about a small variance of 5 or 10 percent.

488     In case there was ‑‑ certainly a large‑scale documentary feature, for example, in one year, that would take, you know, more funding ‑‑ of course, it could actually be more than $50,000 in one year, given the different proposals that come forward from different producers.

489     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.

490     I'm going to look now at audience projections and revenue projections, a few questions on that area.

491     We have your audience projections in the response to deficiencies on page 6, at the top of the page.  If you could, would you explain the factors which you took into account, and the calculations employed, in arriving at these projections for total weekly hours of audience?

492     MR. STRATI:  I'm going to turn this over to Mr. Mulvihill, who has had experience with CHIN, of course, and subsequently in Ottawa on the development of this.

493     As you know, the audience figures, by and large, are not measured in the Bureau of Broadcast Measurements, so they are estimates and guestimates.

494     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  But I see a figure here, if I may, Mr. Miles, just before we go on, "Numbers above are based on BBM Summer 2004 weekly total tuning hours of 29 (million)."

495     I take it then you made your projections on the basis of the entire Vancouver market?

496     MR. STRATI:  That is correct.

497     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Could you explain why you did that, since we are looking at here an ethnic market?

498     MR. STRATI:  Because those markets are reflected in the "don't know" or the other portion of the total Vancouver market.  So in absence of anything that specifically identified the ethnic radio stations, that traditionally do not belong to BBM, those were the calculations that we were able to do.

499     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  What if you used the ethnic markets alone, not the entire market?  I know BBM don't provide it, but there are ways of looking at this.  Would your projections change if you looked at just the ethnic market?

500     MR. STRATI:  No, I think we're very comfortable with the projections that we've made and the calculations that we've done in our resulting rate card, particularly when we had an opportunity to examine the other applications.  We're not that far out in terms of our revenue projections.  And based on that, of course, the experience of CHIN Radio, who have lived this for a number of years.

501     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So is there anything else that you'd like to add in terms of the methodology used to arrive at these projections?

502     MR. MULVILHILL:  Yes, Commissioner.  We have a living example at CHIN right now.  We've been on air for the past year in the Ottawa market with our new FM station, so when we first sat down with the people from Rogers and put together the budget process, we had a living example of the growth, the time frame it takes from local producer development to the local marketplace.

503     This market is this different, because every market is, and has its unique nuances.  This is a much more competitive marketplace, whereas the Ottawa market, we were the first ethnic radio broadcaster.  But from our perspective in how we handle Toronto as well as Ottawa, we're very comfortable with the projections and how we develop them.

504     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Are you able to give us an indication of approximate contribution of each of your primary target groups in terms of how they will contribute to total listening?

505     MR. STRATI:  Yes.  In terms of our total listening?  I think that the total listening will be probably representative of the same kind of shares of programming that we've got on the radio stations, so roughly about 60 percent of the listening will come from the South Asian communities and the remaining 35 or 40 percent will come from these individual blocks.  They will be more difficult to measure because it is a destination time and appointment for each one of these programs, and as you know how BBM operates, or if there was some measurement, they take sort of quarter‑hour averages and recall and things like that.  Very, very difficult to know whether our Portuguese programming on Sunday morning was outdrawing the Polish program on Saturday afternoon.

506     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay.  If we look now at the sources of revenues, which is on the same page of the deficiency letter, and we look at that, we look at your revenue projections submitted with the application, one of the key points you make is repatriation of listeners and repatriation of revenues from out‑of‑market U.S.‑based stations.  I would like to clarify your specific strategies in that regard.

507     Can you quantify the extent to which the repatriation of both audience and advertising revenues, currently flowing to CRPI Radio Punjab and other Washington‑based radio stations, contribute to your overall business plan?

508     MR. STRATI:  Yes.  We would say that we would expect, over a period of time, to repatriate somewhere around about 10 percent.  We call those the local market advertisers, which is point number 2 on our response on page 6, and also incremental spending by existing radio advertisers of the 10 percent would fall under the same category.  People who are comfortable with advertising on the South Asian radio stations, with the opportunity to further expand that audience, would be more comfortable with going on this one.

509     So between those two numbers, the ten and the ten, that would be what we would expect to repatriate.

510     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  If I understand you then, the repatriation resources are in the two marked 10 and 10 percent.

511     MR. STRATI:  Yes.

512     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  From incremental spending and local market radio advertisers?

513     MR. STRATI:  Right.

514     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Those two?

515     Now, do your proposed advertising rates contemplate an expected competitive response from CRPI and other Washington‑based radio services, both in terms of counterprogramming strategies and advertising pricing strategies?  In other words, if there is such a response, how will that affect your pre‑tax profitability planned for year 6, where I believe it's the first‑year profit?  Can you give us a sense of how you see the reaction and what effect that will have on your business plan, inclusive of reaching your pre‑tax profitability in year 6 ‑‑

516     MR. STRATI:  In fact, we've taken that into consideration when we designed our revenues over the first couple of years.  We've operated in these kinds of situations in many different markets, and this is sort of the part that Rogers brings to the equation with our two partners of OMNI and CHIN.

517     What we do know is that local stations providing a local service within the local community end up, over the period of time, to be able to reflect those views of that community, and therefore, advertising ‑‑ I'm sorry, listening, and then advertising follows, from out‑of‑market radio stations.  And we think that with our local programming, as compared with the programming schedule that we've been party to on the U.S. border stations, for instance, that we will have not only a very competitive product but we'll have a compelling product.

518     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  You do make the point, I think at least twice in the application and subsequently in the deficiency, of the challenge that the Washington‑based stations offer to new players in the market.  So that on a going‑forward basis, what specific strategies would you undertake in this particular case where you're looking to repatriate listeners?  Is there anything you can add to the specific strategies you would undertake to see how you would survive the competition which would ensue once you started challenging that position of the Washington‑based stations?

519     MR. STRATI:  Yes, and it's something we're quite familiar with, inasmuch as we have faced this in other markets.

520     What we did is, we went in at a far lower expectation level than you would expect from a market this size.  So our initial figures contemplated an immediate reaction and a difficulty in building an audience and building a rate structure out.

521     The second thing is that our rate structure contemplates about a $20 rate structure with a 60 percent sellout.  These are fairly low, even for new radio stations in any kind of an environment.

522     So, again, we've built into our pricing model the reaction and the competition.  But at the end of the day, it's our belief that our programming, particularly the South Asian, of which amounts to around 50 or 55 percent, is going to be significantly local and different so that the audience will then drift over, and when the audience comes, so will the advertisers.

523     The second part is, nobody else in the community is doing, currently, these additional language programmings, and they have a life of their own, they have an excitement of their own.  You know how you build up the independent producers and they're back out in the community, the community reacts to this, and the revenue flows in through that particular basis.

524     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Mr. Miles.

525     Another point, and it brings us ‑‑ you mentioned the other programming.  We talked earlier about the Chinese programming, and I asked you a question in terms of a more general question.

526     Now if we look at page 32 of your supplementary brief, you note that the limitation you proposed was proposed to limit the economic impact on other stations, in your view.

527     To what extent will the advertising generated from your Chinese language programming contribute to total advertising revenues?

528     MR. STRATI:  Well, it will be part of that 40 percent of new radio advertisers, and I will explain it in this regard:  Inasmuch as that our Chinese programming is referring into very specific areas, business and sports, that's an area that we think has an ability to draw with it specific advertisers.  It's something we've experienced on News 1130.  It's a whole different way of providing radio, and it has very specific people gathered into it.  We think that is an important cornerstone of our programming, inasmuch as our broad‑based application indicates that we want to touch all of the languages prevalent in Vancouver, and so, therefore, we put in some of that programming.  But it has very specific editorial content within those shows.

529     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.

530     I will now ask you a couple of more questions, one on ownership.  We talked about the relationship, Roger and CHIN, Radio 1540 Limited as the parties.  In your deficiency letter of December 8, you inform the Commission that you had decided to modify the ownership structure and would operate as a partnership, with Rogers being the controlling partner, owning 70 percent of the units.

531     Could you confirm for us the ownership structure that has been or will be established between the parties?

532     MR. STRATI:  Yes, it is 70/30.

533     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And will it be in the form of a partnership?

534     MR. STRATI:  Yes.

535     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Will you be able to provide a duly executed and definitive partnership agreement, and if not, would you provide a draft document?

536     MR. STRATI:  We can provide a draft document.  We actually had submitted it and missed a deadline, it was our fault, and we can comply before the end of the day.

537     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Before the end of the day.  I was going to say before the start of phase 3, so before the end of today?

538     MR. STRATI:  Yes.

539     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Good.  Better.

540     Finally, on the technical side, you've applied for the frequency 93.1, and as you know, you're competitive with four other applications.  What we would like to seek is your view on the best use of the frequency, and here I'm looking at a technical point of view.  So from the technical perspective, why do you feel your proposal is the best use of this particular frequency, from the technical point of view?

541     MR. STRATI:  I'm going to turn that over to Mr. Edwards who is able to discuss this technical thing far better than I can.

542     MR. EDWARDS:  Thank you for the question, Commissioner Pennefather, and thank you, in particular, for asking it without a tone of apprehension and dread in your voice.

543     In meeting our goal of broadcasting to a large group of underserved ethnocultural groups, it was clearly important to us to find the optimal technical solution.  It became very clear to us that all of the technical alternatives that we looked at, including the ones that are before you today, have limitations.  However, after considering the various AM and FM alternatives, we chose Channel 226 or 93.1 as the best way of serving the audience, because we believe that the actual impact of the potential interference from the first adjacent American station will be somewhat less than the contours on the maps would imply and because of the significant nighttime limitations that any AM proposal would carry with them.

544     I can elaborate on either or both of those points, if you wish.

545     COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  No, I think that covers the essential elements of your comment on technical viability for your service.

546     On that note, those are my questions, Mr. Chairman, and I would like to thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for your patience and responses.

547     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

548     Vice‑Chair Wylie.

549     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Mr. Mulvihill, I may have a truncated sheet of your audience projections, but you'll correct me if I do.

550     What is this number, the total weekly hours, 234,088 in Year 1, and how then do we get to a percentage share of 0.8?  What's the numerator and what's the denominator, and what do they stand for to arrive at that share?

551     MR. MILES:  What we did is, the total shared hours are in ‑‑ what's the best way of describing it?  All radio stations have a total weekly audience listening habit and they listen 7 or 8 hours a week ‑‑

552     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  And this is the 234,000 ‑‑

553     MR. MILES:  That's correct.

554     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  ‑‑ that you would get.

555     MR. MILES:  As our share.

556     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  What figure did you use to get to the .8 percent?

557     MR. MILES:  Again, it's the total listening audience in Vancouver, the weekly audience in Vancouver.

558     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Do you have that figure, Mr. Mulvihill?

559     MR. MILES:  If I don't, I will be able to supply it.

560     BBM Summer 2004 tuning hours, 29,261,000.

561     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Thanks.  So that would have been the figure used to get the .8?

562     MR. MILES:  Correct.  And that varies, as you know ‑‑

563     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  ‑‑ for revenue.

564     MR. MILES:  That's right, yes.

565     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  And depending on ‑‑ not everybody does it exactly the same.

566     Now, since we have two very experienced ethnic broadcasters before us, can you help us a little bit with this cross‑cultural programming, which crops up in many of the applications more and more before the Commission?

567     Mr. Lombardi, you offered to Commissioner Pennefather to refile your chart and possibly your proposed program schedule.  What exactly would you do to it to make it fit what appears to be, in our discussion, a definition of a cross‑cultural program which may be at odds with what you're intending?  So what would you put in that line where it says a program in English and the ethnic group to which it's directed is English, 12 hours for 9.52 percent?

568     And as Commissioner Pennefather discussed with you, it has to be specifically directed to any culturally or racially distinct group.  So what will you put in that slot instead of English?  English is the group, is the ethnic group as well as the language.

569     MR. LOMBARDI:  If you would indulge me, let me just describe, the intent of the program is to bring ‑‑

570     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  No, I want to know what you'll put in the slot, because you offered it; right?

571     MR. LOMBARDI:  Right.

572     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Let me end the discussion easily ‑‑

573     MR. STRATI:  What we would put in the slot would be, on Monday morning, there would be a discussion with an Italian producer, a German producer ‑‑ jump in here any time, Lenny.

‑‑‑ Laughter / rires

574     MR. MILES:  ‑‑ a Polish producer.

575     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So that will all go in the slot where we now have English.

576     MR. STRATI:  That's correct.

577     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  It'll all be in English, but it will be directed to more than one cultural group, i.e., cross‑cultural?

578     MR. LOMBARDI:  The strict interpretation of the definition is that it's in English ‑‑ for example, in Toronto, a Jewish program, hosted in English ‑‑

579     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Two specific groups.

580     MR. LOMBARDI:  Two specific groups.

581     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Yes.

582     MR. LOMBARDI:  So if that solves the problem with interpretation, then it wouldn't be difficult for us to say, on Monday, we are going to invite our Italian host and we are going to deal with issues of specific interest to the Italian community in English, which is going to attract a broader audience.

583     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Oh, now I have a problem.  I thought that ‑‑ "cross‑cultural" to me suggests that there would be more than one group.  It would be a program directed to South Asian or Punjabi and maybe Hindi heritage ‑‑

584     MS. ZINIAK:  Precisely, Commissioner Wylie.

585     I think what we're aiming to do ‑‑ and this comes through, of course, our experiences, is indeed ‑‑ there's also diversity within diversity.  Precisely, in the South Asian community, English is an official language, for example ‑‑ one of the official languages.  We also, of course, look at our communities where English could be an official language ‑‑ Filipino, the black community, for example.  And I hesitate to introduce yet another word, "intercultural."  But, indeed, you have issues where you can bring two communities together ‑‑ let's say the Jewish communities and the black community ‑‑ and have an exchange that is most meaningful in English.  This is natural and it's part of the identities of the communities.

586     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Because what is cropping up more and more is the appearance of an ethnic program that is cross‑cultural in that it's directed to the mainstream for them to better understand, at which point we have a contradiction with our definition.

587     MR. STRATI:  What may be easier, what it is not ‑‑ and I think this is as important as anything else ‑‑ it's not one host five days a week with a different bunch of cultural issues, discussing it.  It is, for instance, four or five hosts, as you so aptly answered the question, on Monday, talking about an issue that surrounds those four or five different communities.  Then on Tuesday it may well be another set of hosts ‑‑ it would be another set of hosts.  Not "may well be," would be another set of hosts, again discussing this.

588     We're actually quite excited about this thing, but have a bit of difficulty in explaining the concept, apparently.

‑‑‑ Laughter / rires

589     MR. STRATI:  Commissioner Wylie, if I can, just quickly.

590     If you were to look, as you said, through the paradigm, the sheet here, the language would be in English.  In terms of an ethnic group to which it would be directed, it would be ‑‑ I guess it says English there.  Maybe it should have said "various," where it would depend on what the program was.  So you would list ‑‑ you would have three or four ethnic groups and then ‑‑ you'd still have that component that says "other than" English, French, or Aboriginal ‑‑

591     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Yes, I understand.  Mr. Lombardi, when you take your calculator and make all these calculations, do you think you'll need then to upgrade the ‑‑ no, that would become impossible, right?  In other words, in your last column in that programming chart, you're not going to ‑‑ do you think you have to distribute the 9.52 percent now among the other groups?

592     MR. LOMBARDI:  I'm not sure I'm really following this line of questioning.

593     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  You have the language English ‑‑ the ethnic group, English.  We've settled that; it'll be other groups.  Twelve hours and 9.52 percent ‑‑ well, it will simply be ethnic, 9.52 percent.  You won't start trying to divide it between Chinese, et cetera.

594     It's not that important in your case because you're already even.  If it didn't fit the definition of ethnic, you are still at almost 100 percent ethnic.  It's almost ninety.  But it becomes important when you start looking at competing applications, and people have hours of cross‑cultural programming, one has to understand what they mean to arrive at whether they're an ethnic specialty service.  That's helpful, since we're just beginning this process.

595     MS. ZINIAK:  If I may?  I'd like to give some concrete examples.

596     I think sometimes even the language that one speaks is a political issue, and sometimes English is the common ground.  Examples that we've worked with is Serbian, Croatian, examples are Greek and Macedonian.  There is an issue within the language itself spoken, the issue within ethnic identities, and English is a great way to come to terms with issues that affect these communities.  So I would say this is almost intercultural.  Not to introduce yet another term here, but this is really our objective in being able to serve issues ‑‑

597     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Of course, I wasn't speaking of political speech, I was speaking of regulatory speech, in how people identify what their proposal is.  And when they say "cross‑cultural" or "intercultural," once it gets to a large percentage, one starts to wonder, well, does it fit an ethnic station?

598     Thank you.

599     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Counsel?

600     MR. STEWART:  Merci, M. President.

601     You undertook to revise programming charts and I think also the programming schedule, in light of the discussion that is taking place.

602     Can you do that before phase 3?

603     MR. STRATI:  Yes, we will.

604     MR. STEWART:  Thank you.  Now I'd like to just direct your attention briefly to the program schedule, the multi‑coloured document that you have, and I see under "Hindi," I think it's a period between twelve and two, will there be any English component to that block?

605     MR. STRATI:  Paritosh?

606     MR. MEHTA:  Commissioner, only we're restricted to interviews where some of the subjects don't speak the language, so English will be used very minimally.

607     MR. STEWART:  Yes.  With respect to Punjabi, you had Punjabi and English, and you don't seem to have a parallel format for Hindi.  Can you explain, please?

608     MR. STRATI:  You're quite right.  It would apply equally to Punjabi and Hindi as well.  In terms of what the schedule would look like, you would say Punjabi and English and Hindi and English.

609     This is done sort of ‑‑ you look at OMNI Television, for example, on the newscasts, you will see, as Paritosh has mentioned, you will see interviews where, for example, you know, on the federal budget, you could see there's an interview with Ralph Goodale, so there are English components that are intertwined.  Because of the nature of the language, there is an English component, but that's only to facilitate dialogue and conversation.

610     MR. STEWART:  Thank you.  There was an extensive discussion about the operations manager.  Can you just clarify for the record that that operations manager will be a CHIN employee?

611     MR. STRATI:  I don't believe that's what we said.  I believe we said that the operations manager would be selected by the management team, as it were, of which CHIN would be an integral part, OMNI would be a part, and Rogers Radio would be a part, and that the operations manager would be a local person who may or may not be the nominee of CHIN, but it would be a local person with input ‑‑ all three of us would have input into who it is going to be.

612     MR. STEWART:  Okay, yes.  But as I understand, Mr. Lombardi did make that statement, and I'm just trying to reconcile that with page 3 of your supplementary brief, and I quote here:

613     "Given their experience and expertise and ethnic radio, an operations manager from CHIN will oversee the launch and development of the station in Vancouver."

614     I think there was some confusion there.

615     MR. LOMBARDI:  The clarification, as Gary just pointed out, an operations manager, one of our key people from our management team ‑‑ myself, Joe, or another member of our team ‑‑ would be there.  What we're referring to is an operations manager of CHIN would be part of the management team in Vancouver.

616     MR. STEWART:  Okay.  But someone would be specifically appointed from Vancouver to operationalize that?

617     MR. LOMBARDI:  And there would be a specific operations manager from Vancouver.

618     MR. STEWART:  Thank you for that clarification.

619     Just a last question:  With respect to your CTD commitments and with respect to radio features, documentary, and PSAs, did I understand you correctly to say that the copyright would remain with the authors of those documents as distinct from being with you?

620     MR. STRATI:  That is correct.

621     MR. STEWART:  Thank you.  Those are all my questions.

622     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.

623     We will now break for lunch and resume with the next item at 1:15.  Nous reprendrons à 1 h 15.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1215 / Suspension à 1215

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1315 / Reprise à 1315

624     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Secretary, please.

625     MR. LeBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

626     Next is an application by Sukhvinder Singh Badh, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, for a licence to operate a commercial specialty FM radio programming undertaking in Vancouver.  The new station would operate on Frequency 93.1 megahertz on Channel 226C1, with an average effective radiated power of 1,780 watts.

627     Mr. Sukhvinder Singh Badh will introduce his colleagues.  You have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

628     MR. BADH:  Thank you.

629     Members of the Canadian Radio‑Television Telecommunications Commission, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you in support of our application for a licence to serve the ethnic community of Greater Vancouver.

630     This is a great day for us.  With over 72 different distinct ethnic groups represented in this city, we propose to offer services to at least 19 of them directly.

631     My name is Sukhvinder Singh Badh and I am the applicant.  Commissioners, please feel free to call me Suki.

632     I have been involved in commercial broadcasting for many years, in activities that reflect my strong commitment to providing services to the South Asian community.  I am currently teaching in the Department of Economics at Simon Fraser University.  I am also serving as the Chair of the Department of Economics at Douglas College.  I am a trustee with the Richmond Hospital Foundation.

633     Commissioners, my father came to this country in the late 1960s with $7.00 in his pocket.  This country has been good to me.  This country has given me the opportunity to not only succeed but excel.  Canada gave me an opportunity and I am appreciative of that.

634     I wish to share this success not just with South Asians but all Canadians.  Today, for myself and for many people involved in this application process, this hearing is a culmination of our Canadian dream.  The possibility of a licence being issued in Vancouver means an opportunity to bridge the gaps between immigrants and those that arrived before us; a chance to open a window that will allow our cultures to see the world outside our door and the opportunity for the greater community to see us as we are and as we hope to be.

635     The CRTC has an opportunity to repatriate Canadian listeners, to repatriate Canadian revenues, to repatriate Canadian owners back to Canadian soil under Canadian regulation.  Your decision will be a difficult one.  This competition should make it very clear that there is a strong demand within our community for domestic radio services on the FM band.

636     In the February 15th edition of the Globe and Mail, Jane Armstrong described Surrey as the new home of pop where local artists create music and are treated like the biggest rock stars of the day overseas but have absolutely no airplay in Canada and certainly find it nearly impossible to get on the air here in Vancouver.

637     Our station proposes to change all of that.

638     Commissioners, please allow me to introduce some selective members of my team.

639     Dalbir Rai, chartered accountant, partner in Ellis Foster accounting firm, the largest firm in western Canada representing radio and television industry; past president of the Richmond Rotary, current chair of Richmond Hospital Foundation, and an immigrant success story.

640     Dr. Alice Wong, community activist and experienced broadcaster on both TV and radio, will serve as the member of our Program Advisory Board.  She is the founding director and first President of B.C. Women's Enterprise.  Her academic experience has taken her to the United Kingdom, Malaysia, Thailand, Swaziland, Hong Kong, Taiwan and China.

641     Michael Sunner, professionally known as "Indian Lion", a recording artist once signed by BMG Canada, who has released four Canadian content albums of his own original material.  Michael brought the first East Indian music program to Vancouver in 1997, where he bought airtime on a local ethnic station at a rate of $200 per hour.  He is a past member of the Pacific Music Industry Association and will speak to his support for our Canadian Talent Development initiatives.

642     Rocky Mangat is a local radio personality, DJ, and a performer who will join our on‑air talent line‑up as music director.  Rocky epitomizes to the South Asian youth and can explain the popularity of world beat music and how it crosses over every cultural and ethnic boundary in our region.

643     Pourang Taheri is a new Canadian of Persian decent, originally from Iran.  Pourang is a recent university graduate, is actively involved in the West Asian community, and can explain why our commitment to serving this group can create valuable points of contact and sources of information for the West Asian community.  Pourang is also an artist and is accompanied by audience members who are not only active in creating contemporary Arabic‑Canadian music, but who hope for a radio station that can broadcast their accomplishments.

644     Vincent Cheng represents the East Asian community.  Vincent is a small businessman.  Vincent will speak to East Asian music.

645     Jenny Banwait is an experienced office manager with Radio 1550, a cross‑border station targeting the South Asian community.  Jenny will become the Program Manager for our proposed station and be responsible for implementing and maintaining all aspects of our program plan, from staffing, program scheduling, regulatory compliance and promotional activities.

646     Harjinder Thind is a well‑known local broadcaster and talk show host.  He is well‑versed in local issues and is connected to the local ethnic communities in a way that makes him an ideal candidate for the key role of talk programming host and news director on our proposed station.  Harjinder is a recipient of the Queen's Golden Jubilee Award for broadcasting.  He can express the many issues and points of discussion that affect the local ethnic community.  Harjinder is a lawyer and has studied at the London School of Economics and the University of British Columbia.

647     Balwant Sanghera is a widely‑known local commentator and activist in support of the ethnic community.  Since arriving as an immigrant over 40 years ago, he has built a successful career as a teacher and has dedicated his life to serving the community.  He is a recipient of the Order of British Columbia.  He is a recipient of the Queen's Golden Jubilee Award for service.  Balwant can express the issues that affect the ethnic community and how an inclusive, welcoming radio station like ours proposed can greatly advance the cause of multiculturalism.

648     Matthew McBride is a partner in West Island Radio Enterprises, which holds the licence for CHMZ‑FM in Tofino.  Matthew and I first met through our volunteering activities in Richmond and due to our mutual interest in broadcasting have maintained a good friendship for several years.  Matthew's role is to assist us in navigating the regulatory process.

649     Members of the Commission, these outstanding individuals have worked hard to assist our application so that we may present to the CRTC a broadcast undertaking proposal that meets five key requirements:

650     First, the proposal must be financially sound.

651     Second, it must be appropriately funded.

652     Third, we must not make unrealistic over‑commitments.

653     Fourth, we must be reflective of the communities in which we serve.

654     Fifth, we must be inclusive.

655     Our vision is a station rooted in ethnic communities that offer both new and native born Canadians of ethnic origin a starting point for local content, on local airwaves and governed by Canadian regulations.

656     We dream of a radio station that welcomes the larger community, one that can be easily understood by most listeners and one which displays our diversity by creating a common forum where we can all congregate, articulate and celebrate.

657     We now offer a brief introduction to the highlights of our application.

658     We will establish a Program Advisory Board, chaired initially by Mr. Balwant Sanghera.

659     Balwant.

660     MR. SANGHERA:  Honourable Commissioner, as the first Chair of the Program Advisory Committee, my role is to ensure that the station meets the real needs of the community, that local groups are accurately portrayed and served, to ensure fairness of news and information services and to ensure compliance with the station's Promise of Performance.

661     MR. BADH:  Thank you, Balwant.

662     We are fortunate to have Dr. Alice Wong as a member of our Program Advisory Board.

663     Dr. Wong.

664     DR. WONG:  Mr. Chairman and Members of the Commission, creating a radio station that serves a multiple of ethnic interests can be a significant challenge, one that Suki is more than capable of dealing with.

665     Suki's background in public service makes him an ideal candidate to bring such a station to life.  His vision of inclusiveness, and in particular his dream to broadcast under the Canadian broadcast system, can only serve to create an exceptional new aspect of Vancouver broadcasting.

666     My role will be as a member of the Programming Advisory Board, created to ensure that fairness, consideration to all parties and an inclusive approach create a radio station that anyone in Greater Vancouver can listen to, appreciate and participate in.

667     I am sure that my international experiences and local involvement in the Chinese and other Asian communities will help to make this venture successful.

668     Thank you.

669     MR. BADH:  Thank you, Dr. Wong.

670     Jenny Banwait is our program manager.  Her role is to ensure that our programming meets the Promise of Performance.

671     MS BANWAIT:  Thank you, Suki.

672     Commissioners, this station will be dedicated to the concept of world beat music like bhangra, Hindi, Punjabi, Urdu and the many other languages involved in our application.

673     We will target today's youth with our music strategy and provide an important communications service through our information programs.

674     We are committed to fair and balanced spoken‑word programming.

675     Commissioners, we respect all communities, religions and cultures.

676     We will be fair and unbiased and use our talk shows to share the latest issues with our audience, in their own language, and in our common language of English.

677     We are committed to broadcasting artist interviews, and playing the music created by the local artistic community.  We will also make cash contributions to Canadian Talent Development and work to promote local performances and cultural events to offer them free airtime.

678     Finally, we look forward to the opportunity to program on the FM band, from within Canada's boundaries, in the Canadian broadcasting environment.

679     Thank you.

680     MR. BADH:  Thank you, Jenny.

681     To discuss our Canadian Talent Development opportunities is Michael Sunner, known as Indian Lion.

682     MR. SUNNER:  Thank you every so much, Suki.

683     Good afternoon, Members of the Commission.  I have been invited to participate in this application to ensure an effective program of Canadian Talent Development.

684     Our proposal includes direct annual contributions to FACTOR, sponsorship of local music events, an annual scholarship to the Douglas College Music Program dedicated to the development of ethnic artists.

685     We are also proposing significant indirect support through airplay, artists interviews and promotion of artistic and cultural events within the ethnic community.  Our efforts will be dedicated to building a catalogue of ethnic music, and we anticipate the production of one compilation CD of this kind of music every year.

686     I am an entertainer.  My experience in television, on the radio, and in the public area give me a great understanding of the challenges and difficulties artists face in the advancement of their careers.

687     This application is about building a road for Canadian artists ‑‑ a road that leads to local airwaves and hopefully to the billboard and record charts of the world.

688     The future is so bright I might even have to wear my sunglasses.

689     I am known as the Indian Lion, which represents honesty.  The budget allotted in this application for Canadian Talent Development may not seem significant, but it is realistic.  It is attainable and we will deliver fully on our promise.

690     We do not want to appear before this Commission three years down the road trying to explain why we failed to meet our Canadian Talent Development promises.

691     Our airwaves will be open.  No longer will an artist have to pay a radio station for privileges of having their song on the radio, as they often do today.  Instead, we will work with the artists, provide the direction, advice, airplay, promotion and when possible an appropriate direct support for production and performance expenses.

692     This radio station will provide the platform to celebrate the diverse cultures we all want to experience.  Because Suki is not a record producer or record promoter but rather an unbiased broadcaster, his Canadian Talent Development plan will have a positive effect on the entire ethnic artistic community.

693     MR. BADH:  Thank you, Michael.

694     Vincent Cheng will expand on the East Asian component of our application.

695     Vincent.

696     MR. CHENG:  Members of the Commission, the East Asian community represented in this application includes Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Malay, Filipino and Korean elements.

697     The Korean community, for example, reached 35,000 and is growing at 10 per cent per year, plus another 15,000 ESL students temporarily living in the Greater Vancouver Area.  That is 50,000 Koreans with no avenue to listen to their pop music and no avenue to hear their local Korean talent.

698     Korean music is very popular around the world.  In fact, just recently BOA, a Korean artist, reached No. 1 status on the United World Billboard charts.

699     When Suki presented the idea of this radio station to me, I recognized the commitment to youth, to music and to creating a station, the entire community would be a winner.

700     MR. BADH:  Thank you, Vince.

701     Pourang Taheri is here to represent the West Asian community.

702     MR. TAHERI:  Thank you, Suki.

703     Members of the Commission, the West Asian community represented in this application includes many diverse cultures and societies represented here in Greater Vancouver.

704     There are Persians, Turkish, Arabians, Afghanis and Pakistanis speaking Farsi, Arabic, Turkish, Urdu and many other dialects.  And we all speak English as our common language.

705     Suki's application includes significant airtime dedicated to serving these communities.  We love music, going out, and all of the things that Canadian life has to offer.  Unfortunately, it sometimes seems that all people know about us is what they see on CNN or Al‑Jazeera or BBC.

706     I believe this radio station will not only open a window for us to the out world, but also allow the community around us to more easily understand the richness of our culture, our love of music and passion for the Canadian way of life.

707     MR. BADH:  Thank you, Pourang.

708     Dalbir Rai is an old family friend, a chartered accountant, and an excellent resource in our business venture.

709     Dalbir.

710     MR. RAI:  Commissioners, as a chartered accountant, my job is to first look at the credibility of my client, and then assess the reasonableness of their business plan.  Having known Suki for 20 years of my life and spending many years with him on various boards, I can attest to his sound business acumen in this proposal, its reasonable approach, its common sense approach, its realistic approach.  I have no doubt that he will accomplish the objectives sought.

711     It is my job to be onboard to ensure that I help this station with its financial section and provide the input that they need from a business perspective.

712     Thank you.

713     MR. BADH:  Thank you, Dalbir.

714     Talk show and news director/producer, Harjinder Thind.

715     MR. THIND:  Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, I am pleased to be here to support this application.  I will be responsible for a talk show that will be different from the existing talk shows in the terms that it would not create any divisions in the community.  Instead, it will include various groups with diverse backgrounds.  The talk show will be presented in an unbiased, fair and equitable manner.

716     This open line talk show will consist of international, national, local news and current affairs.  I have had the opportunity and pleasure to interview the Prime Minister, the premier of the province, local civic politicians and community leaders.

717     The objective always is to have fair and balanced discussions, presentation of facts and an opportunity for the public to communicate directly with them.  We intend to build a bridge between the diverse groups of Greater Vancouver through our wide‑open, inclusive spoken word programming.  This conduit will create more harmony and a better understanding of each other in our community.

718     Suki.

719     MR. BADH:  Thank you, Harjinder.

720     Members of the Commission, we have assembled an experienced advisory board, an enthusiastic, youthful core of broadcast talent to ensure a successful venture that meets both business requirements and community expectations.

721     Today, Canada is a welcoming home to immigrants from around the world and in B.C., to many of South Asian descent.  B.C. was the first province to have an Indo‑Canadian premier.  Our multicultural success is expressed by historian Gwynn Dyer:

"Without much fuss, we have become the most spectacular diverse country in the world."

722     Today we will ask you to recognize the important role that ethnic radio has, and will continue to play, in the development of our tolerant society.  We will ask you to bring our listeners home to Canada, to bring the revenue home to Canada and to bring the broadcasters home to Canada.

723     We welcome your examination of our application.

724     Thank you.

725     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

726     You have invited and you prefer that I refer to you as Suki?

727     MR. BADH:  Yes, Commissioner, Suki is fine.

728     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Then I will be happy to do that.

729     Suki, I am going to take you through a number of aspects of your application that perhaps need a bit of filling out.  You can answer the questions or refer them to the appropriate person, as you like.

730     MR. BADH:  Certainly.

731     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am going to start with the chart you submitted in your deficiencies of December 9th.  This is just to get a sense of the ethnic programming overall picture.

732     In the chart you list Punjabi in the first line, 30 hours a week, 23.81 per cent; and then  Hindi next with 10 hours, 7.94.

733     Do you have that chart?

734     MR. BADH:  Yes, I do.

735     THE CHAIRPERSON:  The first question is that the numbers don't seem to add up to 97.  They add up to about 64, if you go down the right column in percentages.  So there is just a bit of a reconciliation problem that we have here.

736     Perhaps you could clarify that.

737     MR. BADH:  Commissioner, I would like to pass this one on to Matthew McBride.

738     MR. McBRIDE:  Commissioner, those numbers reflect the language component only.  As you know, there are two parts of the ethnic policy.  The first one is the targeting of a specific ethnic group, and the second component which we were asked to clarify in this particular deficiency was the specific language component.

739     So 90 per cent of our application is targeted at ethnic groups, of which a component of our language structure is in English, for the important process of binding the programming together.

740     The deficiency specifically asked for the distinct language component.  That is what those numbers reflect.

741     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Let me see if I follow you.

742     The numbers add up to what, 64.4 per cent?

743     MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

744     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that represents...

745     MR. McBRIDE:  That is the specific distinct language component not English, French or Aboriginal on the station.

746     THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is third language, 64.

747     MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

748     THE CHAIRPERSON:  There is a second reconciliation within that, and that is that the total duration would be about 74‑some hours, representing about 59 per cent of the week.

749     MR. McBRIDE:  It should come out very close to 60, Commissioner, yes.  That is the 60 per cent in third languages.

750     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  So we are always talking about third languages.

751     MR. McBRIDE:  In this particular component, yes.

752     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I guess the numbers of hours don't exactly reconcile with the percentages of the week.  What is the denominator for the percentages that you have in the fourth column?

753     MR. McBRIDE:  What we are doing there is we are taking the total numbers of hours in the broadcast week of 126 ‑‑ we are using that as the foundation ‑‑ of which 60 per cent of that will be dedicated to third language programming.

754     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.

755     MR. McBRIDE:  That is how we developed those figures.

756     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you would expect there to be 75.6, roughly?  Would that be about the 60 per cent?

757     I guess if you take hours over the hours in the week, it comes out to a different percentage than the percentage you derived in the total.

758     Could you perhaps review that.

759     MR. McBRIDE:  We would be pleased to make a submission before the start of the third phase.

760     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Just straighten the chart up.

761     But I have your answer that this is third language programming in your schedule.

762     MR. McBRIDE:  Correct.

763     THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you could refile that chart with the numbers reconciling, we would appreciate it.

764     MR. McBRIDE:  We would pleased to do that, Commissioner.

765     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Perhaps you could do that in the next day or so.

766     You provided this with a programming schedule as well.  I think you had that, Suki, your programming schedule.

767     MR. BADH:  Yes.

768     THE CHAIRPERSON:  In your application and again today in your remarks you mentioned other languages, including Malay, Japanese, Vietnamese.  I don't see those in here at this point.

769     Where would I find those on the schedule?

770     MR. BADH:  The Japanese component is on the Saturday slot with Cantonese.

771     Matthew?

772     MR. McBRIDE:  Commissioner, if I may, we have expanded that.  We initially developed the programming schedule in terms of focus into the three broad cultural groups of South Asian, West Asian and East Asian.

773     On further request from the Commission, they anticipated that we would assign specific languages into specific blocks.  And we do have that document.  If it is not in the possession of the Commission, we would be happy to file it.

774     We have copies right here.

775     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I don't think it is.  I think probably the best thing is to, on the reconciliation front, file so that we can track whatever you say.

776     MR. McBRIDE:  Yes, Mr. Commissioner.  We have that document right here with us.

777     THE CHAIRPERSON:  That would be good.  If you could file that, we will have a look at it.  Thank you.

778     Can you tell me, Suki, how you decided which ethnic groups to serve in this particular way?  How did you make that decision?

779     MR. BADH:  Why my marketing adviser and I did was we looked at the demographics of the greater Vancouver district specifically serving the Vancouver market.  Our numbers are based on the demographics.

780     THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will get a little bit more into that on the financial side of it, and I guess it would be a similar answer as to how you calculated shares and hours tuned.

781     MR. BADH:  Financially?

782     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I guess you build up your schedule and you build up your financial documents, I presume bottom up.

783     MR. BADH:  My financial documents are based on repatriation in Canadian revenues from the existing frequencies in Washington in additions to discussions with the national ad agencies, CBS and Target, plus relying upon new additional national advertisers.

784     THE CHAIRPERSON:  We have a choice.  We can either move to that now, if you like.

785     MR. BADH:  It's yours.

786     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Or we can discuss the programming a bit more.

787     Why don't we park that.  I have that answer and we will come back to that.  We will finish off with the programming.

788     MR. BADH:  Certainly.

789     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You obviously have some talented musical people with you, and I want to get a sense of your musical orientation, your schedule lists, South Asian music programmings, through large blocks of it.  Unless that changes radically ‑‑ I suspect it doesn't ‑‑ you have subdivided those blocks.

790     Would that be correct?

791     MR. BADH:  I will pass this one to Jenny.

792     THE CHAIRPERSON:  My question is:  Can you describe generally what this is?  I heard your remarks about the Korean star BOA being No. 1 on the world billboard charts, and so forth, but perhaps you could give us a sense and a flavour.

793     Normally we get audios.  Not that you should feel criticized for not having an audio, but we get a good sample of what the nature of the music is like in these proceedings.  So you are going to have to make up for it in words.

794     MS BANWAIT:  Basically, this concept is based on the world beat music, the top 40 or top 50 from all over the world.  It includes all the languages we reflect here, Punjabi, Hindi, bhangra and other languages from east and west Asians.

795     MR. BADH:  I would like to ask Rocky Mangat to contribute to this as well, please.

796     MR. MANGAT:  Basically in the slots that Suki has allotted, like Jenny was saying, we are going to play the top 40 from around the world.  It is going to be based on a South Asian music style.  We hear all the mainstream stuff like Britney Spears and all that stuff on the radio, but we don't hear any of the billboard charts from around the world.  We never hear that on the radio.  So that is what we are going to try to basically put out to the listeners.

797     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  You will basically draw from the world top 40, and you will slot the appropriate regional songs from that top 40 into these blocks.  Is that roughly it?

798     MR. MANGAT:  Yes, that is correct.

799     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it is essentially a world top 40 proposal that we are looking at here.

800     MR. MANGAT:  Yes, world beat music.

801     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I take it then you won't be carrying much traditional music of South Asia.

802     MR. MANGAT:  What we will be including in the top 40 is the music from Balua and from the U.K., which has quite a big bhangra music industry, Punjabi industry out there.  So we will be showcasing a lot of that on the radio.

803     THE CHAIRPERSON:  But it isn't traditional music of India and so forth.

804     MR. MANGAT:  Yes.

805     THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is basically contemporary music, top 40, world billboard that we will be looking at.

806     MR. MANGAT:  Yes.

807     MR. McBRIDE:  Commissioner, in the same way that a western radio station might be playing today's top 40, but there is always a moment for "a blast from the past".  It is no different in the South Asian and East Asian and West Asian cultures.  There is a possibility for a blend.

808     We are not looking at a golden standards of the 40s in this format.

809     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

810     You indicated also in your response on December 9th that you would not be carrying any religious programs.  That is still correct?

811     MR. BADH:  That is correct.

812     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Looking at your foreign programming, you indicated that you do not propose to broadcast any non‑Canadian programming.

813     Is that correct?

814     MR. BADH:  That is correct.

815     THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is in respect to your spoken word.  But you did say that you were going to be carrying information and news programming originating from countries other than Canada.

816     Again, how do I reconcile those last two?

817     MR. McBRIDE:  Commissioner, the intent on that is 100 per cent of the programming will be originating locally through the applicant here.  However, they are going to include a news component that explores issues from around the world that might be of interest to South Asians.  That may require the acquisition of a sound byte or an audio clip from overseas.  But that particular program reflecting international issues relevant to this applicant in the station is actually going to be produced here in Vancouver.

818     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it may draw on foreign reports is what you are saying.

819     MR. McBRIDE:  Yes, but it is a local program.

820     THE CHAIRPERSON:  But it will be 100 per cent produced locally here.

821     MR. McBRIDE:  Yes, 100 per cent of the applicant's programming is produced here.

822     THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.  I think that reconciles it.

823     I expect the same with the music.  What do you see as your Canadian content levels for the world top 40, the bulk of your music schedule?

824     MR. BADH:  I would like to pass this on to Michael, "Lion".

825     MR. SUNNER:  Members of the Commission, as far as Canadian talent goes here in British Columbia, we have an abundancy of artists here that are recording world‑class fusion.  Percentage‑wise, I would say that that world beat international and mixing it up with the Canadian content, we have more than enough.  I would say we would have at least 20 per cent, 10 per cent, in between there.

826     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Let's just see what you said in your application for the levels of Canadian content.

827     You are familiar with the Ethnic Broadcast Policy that requires at least 35 per cent of musical selections from the general music category to be Canadian.

828     How much of that will you be doing?

829     MR. McBRIDE:  Commissioner, the only time that that type of music will be scheduled is in association with a significant event that might be relevant.  Our anticipation is no more than 1 per cent of our total weekly music will fit that Category 3 definition ‑‑ I'm sorry, Category 2: 1 per cent.

830     THE CHAIRPERSON:  What per cent do you calculate will be Category 3?

831     MR. McBRIDE:  Ninety‑nine per cent.

832     THE CHAIRPERSON:  How much?

833     MR. McBRIDE:  Ninety‑nine per cent.

834     THE CHAIRPERSON:  What will your level be?

835     MR. McBRIDE:  It is two songs a day.  There is a possibility that twice over the course of the day a song that fits the typical western profile might be relevant to the program.  Broadcasters use that music sometimes as a comment to emphasize a statement, perhaps a concert announcement, that sort of thing.  We are estimating that at two per day on average.

836     THE CHAIRPERSON:  What does that work out to in percentage terms?

837     MR. McBRIDE:  That is 1 per cent.

838     A station of this nature will play 1,400 songs a week, two per day, on average.

839     THE CHAIRPERSON:  That was Category 2.

840     MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

841     THE CHAIRPERSON:  But Category 3.

842     MR. McBRIDE:  I'm sorry, Category 3.

843     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So Category 2, you said will be 1 per cent.

844     MR. McBRIDE:  Yes, 1 per cent.

845     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So the 35 per cent Canadian content ‑‑

846     MR. McBRIDE:  We would have to make five songs to make that number work.

847     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  And in the 99 per cent, which is Category 3, what will be your Canadian content level there?

848     MR. McBRIDE:  It would have to be approximately 140 songs over the course of the week.

849     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Which is?

850     MR. McBRIDE:  Ten per cent.

851     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, I have that.

852     Brokered programming, you indicate that you won't be carrying any brokered programming.  Is that correct?

853     MR. BADH:  That is correct.

854     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You mentioned in your deficiency again seven hours per week of news content focusing on international "country of origin content".

855     What do you mean by that?

856     MR. BADH:  I would like to pass this one on to Harjinder Thind.

857     MR. THIND:  The news content will be international news, national news and the local news.  We will have a staff that will gather the news here locally, and also we will have sources that will be collecting news from international and national sources.

858     THE CHAIRPERSON:  The phrase "country of origin content", what does that mean?

859     MR. McBRIDE:  Commissioner, if I may, that is that evening program hour on the weekly schedule.  That is the country of origin programming that it is referring to.

860     THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is the 7:00 to 8:00 p.m.?

861     MR. McBRIDE:  That is correct, yes.

862     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Again, that only shows here as five hours in the schedule I have, Monday through Friday.

863     MR. McBRIDE:  The original intent would be five hours.  I propose that that might be a typo or an error on our part, which we would be happy to correct.

864     THE CHAIRPERSON:  The typo being seven?

865     MR. McBRIDE:  Seven instead of five, yes.

866     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You mean five; okay.

867     Again, country of origin content ‑‑ I heard the part about local, national and international, but I am just not clear on what you meant by the phrase "country of origin".

868     MR. McBRIDE:  The focus of the information contained within that program would be on country of origin for the ethnic communities here.  As I described earlier, we are going to produce that one hour of news programming that reflects on issues from around the world.

869     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  It is relative to the groups you are serving.

870     MR. McBRIDE:  Correct, yes.

871     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You said that the language of broadcast will vary to serve mostly the South Asian target audience: 50 per cent in Punjabi and 50 per cent in Hindi of that component.

872     Is that correct?

873     MR. BADH:  That is correct.

874     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So really the news programming will only be in two languages.

875     MR. BADH:  Predominantly.  But English, as I am sure we are all aware, is the common threat that bonds all South Asians, and English is an official language in India as well.

876     The bulk of the 18‑to‑44 generation speak a mixture of both.

877     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  But you are not scheduling English‑language news.  Or are you?

878     MR. McBRIDE:  Commissioner, perhaps I could clarify that for you.

879     Our programming proposes newscasts on the hour every hour during the course of the day, 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m.  The surveillance and information programming component will be delivered in English while other languages are used throughout the course of the hour.

880     The information programming scheduled throughout the day will be in English.

881     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I didn't see that in the documents.  Will your new programming schedule include those news breaks in it for us to be able to examine?

882     MR. McBRIDE:  Those are already included in the application, yes.  If you wish clarity, we would be happy to work on that for you.

883     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  Again, they will be minutes that will be totalled up over the course of the day, won't they?

884     MR. McBRIDE:  That is correct.

885     THE CHAIRPERSON:  It would be helpful if you could show in that grid ‑‑

886     MR. McBRIDE:  Total minutes?

887     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are saying on the hour every hour, 24/7.

888     MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.  In the section of the supplementary brief on news and surveillance programming that is expressed.  But it is not expressed in tabular form.

889     THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, it isn't.

890     MR. McBRIDE:  No.

891     THE CHAIRPERSON:  How many minutes a week do you reckon that would be?

892     If you don't have it now, file it with the other material.

893     MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.  It is going to be a multiple of 36.

894     THE CHAIRPERSON:  That will be basically English related to the language of the hour what, preceding it, following it, surrounding it?  The language of the country that surrounds it.  Is that what you said before?

895     I thought what you said was ‑‑

896     MR. McBRIDE:  The country that surrounds it is all going to be Canadian.

897     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I understand that.

898     MR. McBRIDE:  The newscasts and the information programming, that is the important stuff that audiences might be able to bond to.  That will be delivered in the common language of English.

899     On a given hour of the day the remaining content of that hour will be expressed in whatever language is assigned to that hour.

900     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it won't necessarily relate to that programming.  It will be whatever is the news at that particular moment.

901     MR. McBRIDE:  No.

902     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Then go ahead.

903     You mean yes; okay.  I think I understand.

904     Counsel, if you didn't understand, you can follow up.

905     Now 10:00 to 11:00 a.m., Monday to Friday, you are offering open line talk programming.  We heard a description of that.  But could we hear who the target audience of that programming will be and in which languages it will be offered.

906     MR. BADH:  Harjinder will speak to that.

907     MR. THIND:  The language will be mainly Punjabi and Hindi, but English will also be spoken in order to get the audiences together. Basically the talk shows will be, like I mentioned before, to include all the groups in society so we can form a cohesive society here.

908     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So all three.  You don't have percentages.  But Hindi, Punjabi and English is really what you are basing on your audience.

909     MR. THIND:  Yes, sir.

910     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think you said in your presentation, Suki, that you are aware of the Commission's policies on open line programming and the need for balance, and so forth?

911     MR. BADH:  Yes.

912     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Moving on to the issue of staff of the station, I wasn't able clearly from your application to know the staff complement that you expect to have, where the staff will be drawn from and what their experience is.

913     Could you take those in order.  How large a staff do you expect to have?

914     MR. BADH:  I anticipate between 21 and 25 staff altogether.  Five to ten would be fulltime ongoing and the rest would be part‑timers.

915     THE CHAIRPERSON:  What will be the backgrounds of the staff members?

916     MR. BADH:  Staff members would include individuals like Harjinder Thind, a lawyer, an experienced news‑talk host, Jenny Banwait, Michael "Indian Lion" and the likes.

917     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I didn't miss it, did I?  You didn't fill out a staff complement chart, or did you?

918     MR. McBRIDE:  Actually, Commissioner, that is submitted in our financial tables.  It is broken down by payroll by department.

919     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, I did see that.  That is how you expressed it rather than in fulltime equivalents or person‑years, or whatever.

920     MR. McBRIDE:  Correct.

921     THE CHAIRPERSON:  To read that, I have the plant chart and then there is the overhead, I guess, project manager, and so on.

922     MR. McBRIDE:  That might be the prelaunch table there.

923     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Where would I find you ‑‑

924     MR. McBRIDE:  Each of the tables is broken down by the CRTC guideline of operations, Canadian Talent Development, et cetera, and each has a payroll and non‑payroll component.

925     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  So what code do we use to translate your operating expenses into person‑years, if we look at Item 4.1 of your filed application?

926     MR. McBRIDE:  Could you repeat that, Commissioner.

927     THE CHAIRPERSON:  If we look at 4.1 of your application, in the first year of operation.  It's actually all seven years that are projected here.

928     MR. McBRIDE:  Okay, we have arrived at 4.1.

929     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your operating expenses; right?

930     Is that what you were referring to, or was there another chart?

931     MR. McBRIDE:  Those operating expenses there also include payroll components in there: operating and non‑operating.

932     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So where do I find the ‑‑

933     MR. McBRIDE:  That would be in the financial plan submitted with the supplementary brief.  We expanded those tables.

934     THE CHAIRPERSON:  What document are you looking at?

935     MR. McBRIDE:  It is 7.2 in the supplementary brief.  The financial plan is the appendix title, and it involves I think seven spreadsheets.

‑‑‑ Pause

936     THE CHAIRPERSON:  We don't seem to have that.

937     MR. McBRIDE:  We do have documents here that we would be pleased to submit.

938     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Maybe you could do that as well, and we will look at them.  Those staff complements are drawn from those numbers, are they?

939     MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.  All of the financial tables are actually referring directly back to our financial plan spreadsheets.

940     THE CHAIRPERSON:  The Excel Workbook, is that what you are referring to?

941     MR. McBRIDE:  That is correct, Commissioner.

942     THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will have to take another look at it.  Thank you.

943     The Program Advisory Board, in your application I think you had indicated that Balwant Sanghera was going to be the Chairman?

944     MR. BADH:  That is correct.

945     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Today you announced other members of that advisory committee.

946     MR. BADH:  In addition, Alice Wong.  And there is one other individual who was unable to make it today, and that is Paul Benning.  These three individuals will make recommendations.

947     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are going to have a nine‑member board?

948     MR. BADH:  Yes, that is correct.  Mr. Sanghera and Dr. Wong will do the appointments.

949     THE CHAIRPERSON:  How will they be selected?

950     MR. BADH:  I will pass this one on to  Balwant.

951     MR. SANGHERA:  It will be with consultation, Mr. Commissioner, that we will try to get the people with the most expertise in different areas.  It will be more or less a multicultural group that represents most of the cultures that we have in this region.

952     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Who will be selecting them?

953     MR. BADH:  Mr. Sanghera.

954     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So far, there are just the three names that you have, including your own, Mr. Sanghera.

955     MR. SANGHERA:  Yes, sir.

956     THE CHAIRPERSON:  How are you going to process the input from that group and translate it into programming, Suki?

957     MR. BADH:  The programming will be a culmination of the discussions that the nine members have, and they will make recommendations.  We will sit down and look at the economic viability of it as well, and we will try our best to implement the board's recommendations.

958     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Who will be the point person for the board in the organization?  Will it be you?

959     MR. BADH:  Initially it will be me.

960     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And then?

961     MR. BADH:  We are speaking with other individuals of interest, with expertise in these areas, and then we will make appropriate appointments.

962     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You know in the ethnic policy a primary responsibility is serving and reflecting communities in your local programming.  I appreciate that the board is partway toward that solution.

963     Have you discussed yet the idea of setting standards that you could then measure your success against in respect of community reflection?

964     MR. BADH:  Matthew, would you please comment.

965     MR. McBRIDE:  Commissioner, we had a number of discussions in working to develop this proposal, and it is very difficult to determine at this stage what measurable benchmarks are arising.  This particular broadcast concept doesn't have a precedent in this community.

966     So in looking around and determining how can you establish that we have satisfied the communities at large, the only real tangible one that is going to come up in the first 12 to 24 months is financial viability.  Is the radio station functioning properly?

967     So that is a difficult question to answer today about what those standards are.

968     Our expectation is that through the selection of Balwant Sanghera and Dr. Wong as significant community members who understand the multicultural component, through their contributions we will be able to develop something a little more material than we have today.

969     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for that.  That is a fair answer.

970     CTD is my next area of questioning.

971     The first thing is we again had a bit of a reconciliation issue as to the amount of CTD that you are proposing.

972     I now take it, based on your deficiencies of December 9th, that you intend to allocate $12,000 for the first two years.

973     Is that correct?

974     MR. McBRIDE:  Yes, that is the corrected response in deficiencies, Commissioner.

975     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Pardon me?

976     MR. McBRIDE:  That is the correct response from the deficiencies.

977     THE CHAIRPERSON:  And then going up to $15,000 after that?

978     MR. McBRIDE:  It scales up to $15,000 over the seven‑year term of the licence, yes.

979     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Of which the breakdown is $9,000 cash to FACTOR, $3,000 to the Ethnic Catalogue and $1,500 each to local performance and scholarships.

980     MR. McBRIDE:  That is correct.

981     THE CHAIRPERSON:  In regard to the local performance initiatives, you are familiar on the Commission's policy on what qualifies as CTD, are you not?

982     MR. McBRIDE:  The applicant has been working very hard to understand the regulations.

983     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Public Notice 1990‑111.  Are you familiar with that?

984     MR. BADH:  Yes.

985     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your local performance, what do you envisage there?

986     MR. BADH:  I am going to direct this one to Michael.

987     MR. SUNNER:  Members of the Commission, if we look at the area that we sort of reside in here in the Lower Mainland and looking at Suki's application, the countries that are going to be represented on this ethnic station, the same goes with the music, the artists, the background, the heritage, whether the guys are born here in Canada but their heritage is from say the Middle East or the Far East or Asia‑India.

988     We will take individual artists and put them all together and showcase them, I would say at least three times of the year.

989     MR. BADH:  If I may, Commissioner, we will be making direct cash contributions to these performing artists.

990     MS BANWAIT:  Also, we will offer them free airtime to promote their talent and cultural programs and all that.

991     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am looking at your answer that says $1,500 cash.

992     MR. BADH:  That is direct cash to the artists.

993     THE CHAIRPERSON:  How many do you expect per year?

994     MR. BADH:  At this point, I think as Michael has pointed out, there will be tremendous demand.  We will have to look at the viability of the plan of each artist and see if we can make a worthwhile contribution and assist the artist in that nature.

995     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  I guess an overall question that arises ‑‑ and you did address it in your opening remarks today about being realistic and so on.  It may not seem significant, I think is the way Michael put it, but that it is attainable, and so on.

996     As you know, for a market like Vancouver the normal level of CTD would be $27,000.  That is in the Commission's policy.  Other ethnic broadcasters adopt that and other applicants in this proceeding.  So that is what you are up against.

997     When you look at $1,500 in cash to go to many promising artists, it doesn't average out to a very high number.

998     I have a question about whether it really is a high enough number in this context.

999     MR. BADH:  Commissioner, we will accept a minimum.  But at the same time our plan, based on our experience and expertise in the market, was realistic.  We do not want to be in a situation where we make an attempt to buy a licence simply by inflating these numbers and ending up here three years from now explaining to you why we were not able to make these promises come to fruition.

1000     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  I guess you are talking about not over‑reaching and from where we sit there appears to be quite a serious under‑reach here relative to a minimum that is normally expected.

1001     The question then becomes:  If that isn't viable for you, is the proposition viable?

1002     MR. BADH:  Commissioner, we are willing to accept $27,000.

1003     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Thank you.  We will note that.

1004     If you do, among the other things you are submitting you should submit a new chart that adds up to $27,000 and tells us what you are going to do.

1005     MR. BADH:  Thank you.

1006     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now that we are on the subject of money, we had your earlier answer and let's go a little further along those lines, looking at your overall financials which I do have and which I would like to discuss with you.

1007     Your audience share was worked out based on total hours tuned and then you submitted a table in your application ranging from 324,000 hours per week in year one to 574,000 in year seven.  Do you have that?

1008     And that converted into an audience share based on your assumptions on the growth of the market.

1009     How did you derive those hours tuned?

1010     MR. McBRIDE:  What we did, Commissioner, is we took an AM radio station in this market of a similar anticipated performance level and we looked at their quarter hours and hours tuned, and we made modifications based on that in our anticipated market share.

1011     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Based on what?

1012     MR. McBRIDE:  On our anticipated market share.

1013     THE CHAIRPERSON:  No.  You based those on what, did you say?

1014     MR. McBRIDE:  On an existing radio station.  We analyzed their audience numbers and used that to form the basis and extrapolate it onto our expected share.

1015     THE CHAIRPERSON:  An existing ethnic radio station?

1016     MR. McBRIDE:  No.  Unfortunately, the ethnic stations don't get rated.  So we can't go and get a rating.  We have to go to a conventional radio station and make some fairly broad estimates in order to get that figure.

1017     We took a one share radio station and we used those numbers as a basis for our calculations.

1018     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, thinking you could get the same audience.

1019     MR. McBRIDE:  I don't think it is unrealistic, when 40 per cent of this market is ethnic, that we would anticipate 1 per cent of them.  That is not very much.  That is very realistic.

1020     THE CHAIRPERSON:  That was your basic common sense ‑‑

1021     MR. McBRIDE:  That is the starting point, yes.

1022     THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ your common sense calculation going in there.

1023     MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

1024     THE CHAIRPERSON:  That then just worked out to the audience share.

1025     I have the answer as to how you derived those.  Those converted into audience share based on the size of the market.

1026     MR. McBRIDE:  It is just math after that, yes.

1027     THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is just math after that.

1028     How does that then derive your revenues?  I am thinking you have divided your revenues, as most broadcasters do, between local and national with a roughly 3‑to‑1 ratio in this case.

1029     MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

1030     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Were you as sophisticated as deriving local and national revenue?

1031     MR. McBRIDE:  Actually, we completely over‑exceeded that in this area here.  Although there are no ratings for ethnic stations, there are significant revenues that flow throughout radio stations.  So we used the knowledge that we have from personal experience and individual research with other ethnic broadcasters to get an understanding of what cash flows are like, what spot rates are like and what buying loads are like.  And that is how we built our financial tables.

1032     We introduced a significant level of caution into our financials.  In fact, we went significantly over to the conservative side on our financials to ensure that we had a viable plan.

1033     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You didn't base it on a bottom‑up approach of targeting different groups that you would be serving and calculating how much advertisers would buy for each of those.

1034     MR. McBRIDE:  Commissioner, we did, based on some of our actual experience.

1035     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You did some of that.

1036     MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

1037     THE CHAIRPERSON:  But I guess ‑‑

1038     MR. McBRIDE:  Well, it can't be based on FM South Asian station, so we have to incorporate some level of guessing as well.

1039     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I notice in your deficiency response you did project that 65 per cent of your projected revenues for year one, at least, would be derived from existing out of market Washington State radio stations.

1040     MR. McBRIDE:  Those are the repatriated dollars.

1041     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Targeting the market.  Was that correct?  Did you base these financials in part on that?

1042     MR. McBRIDE:  Primary research in the business community indicates that that is the potential for this station.  By speaking directly to the advertisers and the people who are currently buying out of country, our estimate was that in the first year we would be able to capture 65 per cent.

1043     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Suki, you are the manager of that station, KPRI, it is?

1044     MR. BADH:  Owner and manager, correct.

1045     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Owner and manager.  I won't ask you too many embarrassing details.

1046     Are you a U.S. citizen?

1047     MR. BADH:  I am on the verge right now.

1048     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  Licensing in another country is their consideration.

1049     Are you going to continue on with those?

1050     MR. BADH:  I'm sorry?

1051     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are you going to continue on in your binational capacity?

1052     MR. BADH:  I will do as the Commission desires.  I am willing to dissolve my interest in 1550 and repatriate the listeners, the revenues, back to Canada.  I am a Canadian citizen as well.

1053     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  You did say that in your filing and I have that.

1054     Normally one would expect a competitive response if there was an arm's length relationship from such a station.  If you were licensed and came on the air, they would try and adjust their programming as well because they would now be in competition with you.

1055     MR. BADH:  That is correct.  But first and foremost the intention is to serve the Canadian population on Canadian soil under Canadian regulations.

1056     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  Your aim is to dissociate from that other operation?

1057     MR. BADH:  As the Commission wishes.

1058     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, I am not sure we would have a wish on that or not.  I would have to consult.

1059     MR. BADH:  I am willing to divest.

1060     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I beg your pardon?

1061     MR. BADH:  I am willing to divest of my interest in 1550.

1062     THE CHAIRPERSON:  In other words, what you are telling us is that you really want to repatriate those advertising dollars to a station here.

1063     MR. BADH:  Correct.

1064     THE CHAIRPERSON:  But you can't rule out that someone else could of course take over.  That would be your intention to sell an ongoing asset.

1065     MR. BADH:  That is correct.

1066     THE CHAIRPERSON:  To someone else who would then be a competitor with you.

1067     MR. BADH:  That is correct.  And I will have to look at the options as well.  That is where I have to work with the CRTC in terms of ‑‑ as I said, I am willing to accept as a condition of licence whatever the Commission wishes.

1068     Obviously if I have a frequency allocated in Vancouver, it would be in my best interest to not have more competition from abroad.  I have had tremendous amounts of local interest.  As a matter of fact, my station manager from Ferndale and my engineer for that station are here, and we have had a number of inquiries anywhere from the natives in the States to the local country, rock and roll.  So there are plenty of opportunities available for that.

1069     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  That gives you the confidence in your 65 per cent figure.

1070     MR. BADH:  Very much so, conservative.

1071     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

1072     I think you have answered a number of the questions that arise from that.

1073     You did say local revenues, I think, in your deficiency, where you projected the 65 per cent.  What about national revenues?  Does that station actually carry Canadian national revenues as well?

1074     MR. BADH:  I believe so.  I believe there are some.  In initial consultation with Target, CBS, there is tremendous possibility there as well.

1075     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You don't currently carry national ‑‑ I guess my question is:  Why is it that in your deficiency response you did the 65 per cent on the local revenue base and exclude the national?

1076     I guess the question is:  Is there national revenues on that station?

1077     MR. BADH:  Yes, there are right now.  I am sure we will get it, but again my estimates are realistic and attainable and conservative.

1078     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think you have helped answer a number of questions that I did have.

1079     This is BBC Broadcasting I assume we are talking about.

1080     MR. BADH:  Correct.

1081     THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you don't mind, it would be interesting to know how your experience in operating that station, in addition to repatriating the revenues, how that experience will assist you in this market.

1082     MR. BADH:  Commissioner, the initial decision when the community members did approach me, there is a tremendous amount of demand but nobody is willing to put their finances forward.

1083     It was a gut wrenching decision.  On the one hand, I am aware of CRTC's issues with such licences and I am also aware of the community needs.

1084     The experience has been quite positive.  The community has been supportive, from looking at some of the financial pictures.  But my ultimate goal is to serve Canadians on Canadian soil under Canadian regulations.

1085     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is the programming schedule that you submitted originally roughly the programming schedule of KPRI?

1086     MR. BADH:  No, it isn't.

1087     THE CHAIRPERSON:  How would you characterize the differences?

1088     MR. BADH:  This one is heavily music and that one is a combination of talk shows and music.

1089     THE CHAIRPERSON:  What kind of music would it play?

1090     MR. BADH:  Predominantly Hindi and Punjabi.

1091     THE CHAIRPERSON:  More traditional music?

1092     MR. BADH:  It depends on the host.  We have guys that play traditional and we have guys that play contemporary.  We also do provide free airtime once a week to local issues, and the local city council and the mayor are given free time any time they are required to address local issues in that region.

1093     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is there brokered programming on that station?

1094     MR. BADH:  None.

‑‑‑ Pause

1095     MR. BADH:  Yes, some of it is brokered.

1096     THE CHAIRPERSON:  We ask a question of a number of applicants on the best use of a frequency from a technical perspective.  In your case, what are the compelling reasons to grant you the 93.1 frequency?

1097     Why is it the best use of that frequency?

1098     MR. McBRIDE:  Commissioner, if I can respond to that, we went directly to a consulting engineer to ask them to find the most appropriate frequency.  This one provides us with the best expected coverage in the area with the least amount of signal interference primarily from U.S. signals.

1099     It was the best frequency he could find for us.

1100     THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think those are my questions for the moment.  I may want to come back on the person power issue that we had a glitch on subsequently, but otherwise those are my questions.

1101     Other Commissioners may have other questions.

1102     Commissioner Langford.

1103     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I don't want to ruin your day, but I am just going to ask you a hypothetical question based on your discussion with the Chairman a minute or two earlier.

1104     I was wondering, hypothetically again, if you were not to be licensed out of this round of applications but a competitor was, one of the other applicants, they of course, this new station, would be trying to eat your lunch in the United States, to use a favourite term.  I would suspect that you wouldn't just roll over and let them without a struggle.

1105     I wonder if you could give us some idea of how you would fight back.  What would be your competitive strategy to retain the business that you have now, which is going along so swimmingly for you?

1106     MR. BADH:  Commissioner, the South Asian community is a very loyal and dedicated community.  Personalities such as Harjinder Thind, personalities such as Professor Daliwahl, personalities such as other artists, do attract listeners regardless of where they are broadcasting from.

1107     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Can we talk money?  Are we talking about pricing wars?  Can you give me a little more idea of what you think you might be up against?

1108     MR. BADH:  Money will follow these personalities.  As long as these personalities continue to be on air, regardless of where these signals originate from, the listeners are there and the business community ultimately wants to sell their product to the stations that have the listenership.

1109     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So you are not going to roll over ‑‑ and nor should you.  But the competition then will be on product rather than price.  It is not the Wal‑Mart approach.