ARCHIVÉ -  Transcription - Hull, QC - 2001/05/30

Multiple broadcasting and ownership applications &
applications further to Public Notice CRTC 2000-153
"Call for applications for a broadcasting licence to carry on
a radio programming undertaking to serve Ottawa/Hull"/
Demandes de radiodiffusion et de propriétés multiples ainsi
que des demandes suite à l'avis public CRTC 2000-153
"Appel de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant
l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation de radio
pour desservir Ottawa/Hull"

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.

Multiple broadcasting and ownership applications &
applications further to Public Notice CRTC 2000-153
"Call for applications for a broadcasting licence to carry on
a radio programming undertaking to serve Ottawa/Hull"/
Demandes de radiodiffusion et de propriétés multiples ainsi
que des demandes suite à l'avis public CRTC 2000-153
"Appel de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant
l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation de radio
pour desservir Ottawa/Hull"

BEFORE / DEVANT:

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Hull, Quebec / Hull (Québec)

--- Upon resuming on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 at 0900 / L'audience reprend le mercredi 30 mai 2001 à 0900

9731 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, and welcome back to our hearing.

9732 Bonjour, et nous vous souhaitons la bienvenue à la dernière journée de notre audience.

9733 Il nous reste une intervention de la Phase III et nous procéderons ensuite à la Phase IV.

9734 We have one more intervenor to hear in Phase III and we will then proceed to Phase IV.

9735 Madame la Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

9736 MS POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

9737 Mr. Rob Frayne.

INTERVENTION

9738 MR. FRAYNE: Good morning.

9739 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Frayne.

9740 MR. FRAYNE: Good morning, Madam Chair and members of the Commission.

9741 I am here to support Standard Radio's application for a new smooth jazz radio station to serve Ottawa/Hull. As this city approaches a million people, the jazz scene here is reaching a critical mass with several local groups now touring and recording both nationally and internationally.

9742 There are growing numbers of informed concert-going, record-buying public, hence there is a demand and need for high-quality jazz music and teaching.

9743 Jazz is now considered an important part of a city's culture, as American jazz groups like the Lincoln Centre Jazz Orchestra or the Smithsonian Jazz Ensemble attest. Also the huge club industry and tourism seen in New York City is a real hallmark of a strong, vibrant, alive town.

9744 In Canada, Montreal and Toronto are often thought of as jazz cities based on the huge music infrastructure, numbers of players, jazz schools and recording studios present.

9745 Ottawa will benefit greatly by joining these cities in developing the excitement and depth of jazz, by expressing different styles of music, jazz that can be swinging, improving, creative, vocal, instrumental, world beat influenced and even avantgarde.

9746 Today, we have an opportunity to develop a local Ottawa/Hull scene made up of musicians, educators and audience. I sincerely believe that Standard Radio's proposed smooth jazz station will offer jazz musician and Ottawa jazz aficionados a real boost.

9747 Briefly, here is my background and experience as a jazz artist. I have been involved in performing on saxophone with Chelsea Bridge, the Aangstones, the reFrayne Sextet, Timewarp, Claude Ranger, Fred Stone and many others. Besides touring Canadian jazz festivals since 1985, I compose, arrange and record music on over 20 CDs and teach jazz part time at Carleton and also at the 8th Annual Chelsea Bridge Jazz Camp.

9748 I'm lending my support to The Wave 97.9 because Standard would contribute directly to the develop of Canadian jazz talent. As a self-employed jazz musician, Standard Radio's commitment to investing seven million dollars in developing Canadian jazz talent will provide support for the whole jazz community, and parts of this funding I find particularly great are:

9749 1)the funding of the four stage NAC/Smooth Jazz concert series;

9750 2)$100,000 directly to the Ottawa Jazz Festival which really needs the money;

9751 3)A live broadcast series of jazz in Canada which is great, bringing back the heyday of jazz live radio. It's the moment, it's improvised live and it's going out across the airways live; and

9752 4)$100,000 to fund two jazz CDs and $50,000 to fund a compilation CD. This could showcase more bands and more styles across the whole country.

9753 I believe Ottawa needs more jazz on the radio. Currently, we only have a few jazz programs on the college station CKCU and CHUO and some national CBC jazz.

9754 The impact of hearing more good quality and diverse jazz music will be positive and provide an Ottawa equivalent to Toronto's CJRT, a jazz station, and Buffalo's WEBR.

9755 I think the Canadian jazz content proposed by Standard will provide an immediate venue and outlet for the hundreds of existing Canadian jazz CDs and encourage writing and recording of more Canadian jazz.

9756 I would also like to speak to you today as a jazz teacher. Standard Radio's commitment to seek out and develop jazz talent by providing $25,000 per year in jazz scholarships would allow young students to develop their passion. Without the support of Standard Radio these scholarships would not be available.

9757 And further, if Standard were able to contribute to a degree granting jazz studies program at one of the universities in Ottawa, then this city could attract young jazz musicians and the university jazz players, who are currently leaving Ottawa, would have a choice about where to study the art form they really love.

9758 For these reasons, I strongly urge the Commission to approve Standard Radio's application. This will allow the jazz musicians in the National Capital Region to embrace the opportunity presented and to develop their skills and talents, showcase their recordings and reach their audiences.

9759 Thanks for your consideration. If you have any questions, I'm here for you.

9760 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Frayne. I suspect this is early for a jazz musician.

9761 MR. FRAYNE: Yes.

9762 THE CHAIRPERSON: So we won't burden you with any questions.

9763 We thank you for your presentation. Your position is clear and we appreciate that you did come to see us this morning.

9764 MR. FRAYNE: Great. Thanks.

9765 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are now ready to proceed with Phase IV of the hearing.

9766 Nous procédons maintenant à la Phase IV de l'audience.

9767 Madam Secretary, please.

9768 MS POIRIER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

9769 Phase IV is where applicants reappear in reverse order of appearance from Phase I to comment on an intervention filed to their applications.

9770 Once again, ten minutes are allowed.

9771 La Phase IV, ce sont les requérantes qui recomparaissent devant le Conseil dans l'ordre inverse de comparution de la Phase I. Encore une fois dix minutes maximum sont allouées pour la présentation.

9772 I would like to start with Mr. Douglas Kirk's application.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

9773 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Kirk and Mr. Wright.

9774 MR. KIRK: Good morning.

9775 MR. WRIGHT: Good morning.

9776 MR. KIRK: Thank you, Chairperson Wylie, Commissioners Noël, Demers, Pennefather and Cardozo, Counsel Rhéaume and Commission staff.

9777 We are here to speak to two issues today. The first is an application for an amendment to our closing rebuttal remarks in Phase IV.

9778 John.

9779 MR. WRIGHT: On Monday, we submitted a request to amend our application. We simultaneously copied all the other applicants.

9780 Our request followed our presentation on Friday where it became very apparent the Commission's interpretation and categorization of our music list was very different from ours.

9781 It was only in the closing remarks by counsel that we realized that the Commission was classifying all songs from published smooth jazz charts as jazz and, therefore, as Category 34.

9782 We confirmed this with counsel after Friday's proceedings. We were totally unaware that the smooth jazz chart was a determining criteria. In fact, reference to smooth jazz and to a smooth jazz chart is noticeably absent from the description of Category 34 as set out in public notice 2000-14.

9783 We say this because the description of Category 21, pop, rock and dance, closes with:

"This includes musical selections listed in charts such as AC, hot AC, pop, adult, AOR, CHR, alternative, modern, adult alternative, active rock, dance, R&B, urban and techno, compiled and published by music trade publications".

9784 The description of Category 22, country and country oriented, closes with:

"It includes musical selections in country charts compiled and published by music trade publications".

9785 The description for Category 34 contains absolutely no reference to the name smooth jazz or to charts compiled and published by music trade publications.

9786 Using the smooth jazz chart certainly changes the categorization of a good portion of our music. Songs we have played from the smooth jazz chart and classified previously in Category 2 will now be in Category 3.

9787 As a result, with most of our music in Category 3, this now makes us a specialty format. This information changed our format classification, but it has changed nothing else in our application. It's the same music, the same instrumentals, the same Canadian content, or in other words, the same application with a different format name.

9788 We would invite the Commission to consider our application as a specialty with less than 70 per cent of the music broadcast from Category 2. Our undertaking as a condition of licence to broadcast a minimum of 35 per cent instrumental selections and 20 per cent Canadian content in Category 2 and Category 3 remains unchanged.

9789 Our amendment is a change to the form and not to the substance of our application. We are asking the Commission to exercise discretion and flexibility to ensure our application is considered in the appropriate category.

9790 With our new understanding that every song on the smooth jazz chart is Category 34, a minimum of 65 per cent of our music will be in Category 34, jazz and blues.

9791 Both Doug and I are personally sorry for the frustration and confusion about the definitions of music categories and regret we were unaware that the smooth jazz chart could be used to determine Category 34 music.

9792 Thank you.

9793 MR. KIRK: I echo John's remarks regarding the amendment.

9794 Finally, we would like to thank all the people that filed positive interventions to our application, especially the numerous smooth jazz artists, including Sharon Musgrave, Brian Hughes, Gordon Sheard, Rob DeBoer of the group 480 East and others whom we have been working with at The Wave in Hamilton since we signed on last September.

9795 In addition, we want to comment on interventions by CIRPA and Standard regarding our application.

9796 As we said earlier at the hearing, working and developing with talent is the real emotional reward of working in the radio business.

9797 We have promised a substantial Canadian talent development commitment. In fact, it's the largest we could make as an independent operator using a realistic business plan and expectations for the format in this market.

9798 We believe our application meets the criteria the Commission has set out for new FM licensees. We bring diversity of format, editorial voice and ownership to the Ottawa-Hull market. We are the only applicant with direct operating experience in the smooth jazz format.

9799 Most importantly, this licence is very important for our future, that is John and my future. We are a regional broadcasting group. This licence to serve Ottawa-Hull will give us a linkage of licences from Hamilton to Ajax, to Kingston, to Ottawa. This is all in a very manageable geographic area. It will allow us to grow our management people exchange sales ideas get increased and more interested national sales attention, improve our human resource functions and allocations and exchange programming and promotion ideas and compete more effectively with the large consolidated ownership groups now showing up on the scene.

9800 The two smooth jazz stations wave in Hamilton and wave Ottawa-Hull will be able to cooperate on Canadian talent development initiatives and on our exposure in the two markets will accelerate the development of our budding Canadian smooth jazz artists. In sales, both stations will greatly benefit from developing combined feature sponsorship opportunities for national and regional advertisers.

9801 When the ownership regulations were changed, the intended result was to improve the financial condition of the industry by allowing consolidation. This has happened. At the same time, the Commission has made it very clear that once the industry became more consolidated and financially robust, the new policy would pave the way for new operators to enter the business to further enhance choice and diversity.

9802 We believe developing a new original operator with the critical mass to compete with the large national radio companies serves the Commission's objective of broadening ownership in the radio industry.

9803 We thank you for listening to our two majors points and we would be pleased to answer any questions you might have.

9804 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kirk. Mr. Wright. I do not believe we have any question. We will allow each applicant as we hear them an additional five minutes to address the request for amendment of the application made by this applicant.

9805 Alors, nous allons accorder cinq minutes à toutes les requérantes lorsqu'elles se présentent pour faire leur intervention si elles veulent faire des commentaires sur la proposition de modifications monsieur Kirk et monsieur Wright.

9806 We will rule on whether to accept the amendment, and on what terms if we do, at the end of the process.

9807 Alors, nous vous donnerons le résultat de notre décision après avoir entendu tout le monde à la fin de la Phase IV.

9808 Thank you, Mr. Wright, Mr. Kirk.

9809 Madame la secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

9810 MS POIRIER: We will now hear the Gary Farmer intervention.

REPLIQUE / REPLY

9811 MR. FARMER: Good morning. I think they are going to set up a projection for you, it just takes a couple of minutes. I guess while we are waiting I can simply mention that we have no objection to Mr. Kirk's.

9812 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Farmer.

9813 MR. FARMER: Good morning Commission members. We are pleased to close with a few remarks in response to the intervention by the CBC during Phase III.

9814 We want to clarify the relationship of our proposal to the CBC's Radio One service. We want the Commission to appreciate the diligence of our proposal and the responsibility AVR's has accepted to ensure unimpaired Radio One service to listeners southeast of Ottawa.

9815 We must be clear: AVR has designed its parameters to minimize its effect on Radio One's seamless coverage, and AVR has committed that every listener near Cornwall will be able to receive an interference-free Radio One service on one frequency or another.

9816 AVR is proposing parameters for its new service which require an exception to the rules, based on the spectrum efficiency. To judge the AVR proposal, the Commission must be clear on two matters: the nature of the exception we propose, and the merits of the exception in terms of radio service to Canadians.

9817 MR. MATTHEWS: First, we would like to summarize what AVR has proposed. AVR has proposed a new Ottawa radio service that creates an area of potential interference to a CBC repeater in Cornwall. This Cornwall repeater, CBOC, carries a duplicate of CBC's Ottawa Radio One service, CBO.

9818 MR. RHEAUME: Excuse me; is there any way that you can use the mike from where you are, this microphone?

9819 MR. FARMER: I'm not loud enough.

9820 MR. RHEAUME: Well, we cannot hear you over here.

9821 MR. MATTHEWS: I will try that again. Shown in both green and red here is the area where the CBO and CBOC services overlap and Radio One listeners in that area have a choice of frequencies to listen to them. And the crescent shaped arc shown in red is where the AVR service will create a zone of potential interference to the Cornwall repeater, CBOC, which will make the area of overlap smaller.

9822 Now, we can add a line on this map and above this line, CBC is the stronger signal of the two and below the line, CBOC, the repeater, is stronger. And you will see that the entire arc of potential interference to CBOC is above that line where the CBO signal is stronger.

9823 Now, the potential interference from AVR is to the CBOC signal, not the CBO. So, listeners who already tune in CBO will not have the CBO service affected. Because the CBO signal is stronger in the entire arc of potential interference, we would expect most Radio One listeners in that area already tune CBO and, therefore, would not be affected. But there might be a few Radio One listeners in that area who tune CBOC and would have to switch frequencies for a better signal.

9824 The CBC agrees that its Radio One signal from Ottawa is reliable as far as Monkland, but near any hills in that area, river valleys, there may be pockets where the Ottawa signal is weaker and where duplicate coverage is needed from CBC's Cornwall repeater.

9825 We have proposed to locate AVR's Ottawa station at Camp Fortune. Apart from the other advantages of that site, we know that any hills that weaken reception of CBO Ottawa in the area of potential interference will also weaken the interference signal from the proposed station. That's the CBC's duplicate Radio One coverage from Cornwall should be least impaired where it is needed most. Our choice of location is a deliberate effort to limit the proposed station's impact on the CBC. It will by design neutralize the affects of local topography and reduce the CBC's need for coverage overlap.

9826 And that is an important concept, so I want to just give you an example to illustrate: If you live somewhere near the arc of potential interference where a hill obstructs the CBO signal from Ottawa, then the interfering signal from the new station on 95.7 will also be obstructed. Thus the CBOC repeater signal on 95.9 from Cornwall would still be available to you interference-free.

9827 We chose 6000 watts effective power from Camp Fortune because the area of potential interference to CBC Cornwall would be entirely enclosed by a stronger interference-free signal from CBC Ottawa. Thus the CBC would still enjoy some coverage duplication, but not quite as much as before.

9828 We know that the Rules call for protection of coverage regardless of coverage duplication, and we acknowledge that there is an area of potential interference to CBC's Cornwall repeater. But because we have chosen a site and a limited power to balance the new station's Ottawa coverage against any adverse impact on CBC coverage, we think an exception to the Rules is warranted in the interests of spectrum efficiency. Complete protection of Cornwall's entire coverage, including the entire area of duplication with CBO would come at a high cost to the congested Ottawa spectrum, and prevent AVR from taking the approach it has to location.

9829 We have proposed an effective power that would limit potential interference to CBC Radio One near Cornwall to an area that receives stronger coverage from CBC Radio One's Ottawa frequency. We believe that most reception problems could easily be solved by a spin of the dial on the listener's receiver, for those CBC listeners in Maxville and Finch who might listen to the weaker Cornwall signal at this point.

9830 We have committed to remedy any interference complaints to the CBOC service, which cannot be remedied by listeners switching to the CBO service and we have also committed to test at our own expense, to prove to Industry Canada and the CBC that the Camp Fortune site can be used without impairing the CBC's seamless Radio One coverage now or in the future.

9831 The remedies we have suggest include operating at a lower effective power if necessary. We are willing to limit the proposed station's effective power to less than 6000 watts if tests show that this will be necessary to ensure the integrity of the CBC's service. We believe that field testing is the most spectrum-efficient and cost-effective route to making the best use of 95.7 in Ottawa.

9832 If tests show that the proposed station would have to be severely limited from Camp Fortune to protect the CBC, then certainly we would consider an alternate site. But, at first we want a chance to test this from Camp Fortune.

9833 The area of potential interference is less than 100 sq. km, with less than 200 km of county roads, no major highways, and two villages - Maxville and Finch. We estimate that we could do this testing in less than 10 days in total and test equipment would consist of a specialized multi-channel FM receiver that measures the field strength.

9834 Now, we hooked back in a Global Positioning receiver up to a notebook computer and that records the test results. And we would propose as well to begin testing at 1800 watts, which is the effective power that the CBC agrees would cause no interference to the Cornwall repeater and we would move that power up in increments.

9835 MR. FARMER: We are asking that AVR be licensed for 95.8 in Ottawa at 6000 watts from Camp Fortune, or at a lower parameter as determined by testing and Industry Canada approval. We are confident that, with the CBC's cooperation we will be able to demonstrate to everyone's satisfaction that we can do what we propose without impairing the integrity of Radio One coverage.

9836 Finally, in its comments, the CBC made reference to an unused allotment in Renfrew that would be affected by the proposed station. In keeping with the Broadcast Procedures and Rules, our engineering brief contained a proposal for moving that unused allotment to another frequency, thus preserving the option of a future FM station for Renfrew.

9837 AVR was asked in Phase I whether we would accept a Condition of License to air local advertising only once we are airing 21 hours of local programming. Yes, we can work with this.

9838 We would like to conclude our remarks with words offered by those who are unable to speak before you at this public hearing.

9839 The Commission has heard the voices of support AVR has in the Ottawa-Hull community for a new radio service. The Community here recognizes this as a great opportunity.

9840 The Community speaks of the opportunity of a new healing. The Aboriginal Women's Support Centre: "The station will provide a venue for holistic healing, mentally, spiritually, physically and emotionally for all nations and races."

9841 Doctor Dianne Tanner: "As an Aboriginal psychotherapist, I deal with a very large segment of the Aboriginal community and find that it is very important to have role models that can easily be heard and identified with."

9842 And the Community speaks of the opportunity for a new understanding.

9843 Professor Armand Ruffo: "As a professor of Aboriginal studies at Carleton University, I am constantly surprised how little Non-Aboriginal students know about Aboriginal people."

9844 Kimberly Smith-Spencer: "This radio station would be an asset to our Television Radio and Journalism programs here at Algonquin College in assistance with co-op placements, training, employment mentoring and cultural programming".

9845 This Community stands on the threshold of a great new opportunity.

9846 Commissioners, you can open the door to Aboriginal voices on the radio in Ottawa.

9847 Thank you for your attention, and our best wishes go out to you as you deliberate on this matter.

9848 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just one short question, Mr. Matthews. Who, in your view, has the regulatory responsibility to resolve this potential problem]

9849 MR. MATTHEWS: We believe that should depend on the recommendation of Industry Canada, based on the test results we are able to produce for them.

9850 THE CHAIRPERSON: And CBC as well]

9851 MR. MATTHEWS: Clearly, their view is important.

9852 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. You were here when they appeared in intervention?

9853 MR. MATTHEWS: Unfortunately not, but I have seen the transcripts.

9854 THE CHAIRPERSON: But you have seen what they had to say. We thank you very much.

9855 Madame la secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

9856 Mme POIRIER: Merci, madame la présidente. Nous allons maintenant entendre la réplique de monsieur Yves Belzile. Bonjour, monsieur Belzile et monsieur Lorrain, je crois?

9857 M. LORRAIN: C'est ça, oui.

RÉPLIQUE / REPLY

9858 M. BELZILE: En commençant, j'aurais peut-être une question pour vous. On a manifesté à notre audience de Phase I le désir de nous questionner sur certaines choses. Je me demande, est-ce que vous préférez commencer par ça?

9859 THE CHAIRPERSON: Je vous poserai des questions à la fin de votre intervention.

9860 M. BELZILE: Parfait. Le processus de comparution tire à sa fin. Notre travail en tant que requérant tire aussi à sa fin. Il ne nous restera plus qu'à attendre votre décision. Quant au vôtre, c'est différent. Vos décisions ne seront sans doute pas faciles et ne feront certainement pas l'unanimité Bonne chance, je ne vous envie pas.

9861 Nous avons l'intention de répondre aux objections de tous les groupes franco-ontariens en même temps car nous considérons les opinions émises par leurs différents intervenants comme un tantinet redondantes.

9862 Nous répondrons aussi à la suggestion de monsieur Farmer de nous déloger de la fréquence 95,7. Mais avant de commencer, nous aimerions, avec votre permission, faire lecture de quelques mots de précision sur la disponibilité de la musique Country francophone.

9863 Ce texte est inséré comme annexe à la toute fin de votre document. C'est la dernière page. Un mot sur le format Country.

9864 A la Phase I, nous avons été questionnés sur la disponibilité suffisante de matériel country francophone. Nous sommes convaincus que le matériel est plus que suffisant pour supporter une programmation à 65 pour cent francophone. Si, en effet, le matériel était suffisant entre 1989 et 1995 pour rencontrer les exigences d'une programmation à 90 pour cent francophone, force nous est d'admettre que toute cette production n'a pas été détruite quand CFLS a changé de format musical.

9865 D'ailleurs, nous avons déjà en main plus de 250 CD.

9866 A propos, monsieur Lorrain s'est rappelé avoir fait parvenir au Conseil en 1995 la liste complète de toutes les pièces de musique country qu'utilisait CFLS dans sa programmation.

9867 De plus, les artistes country, dont plusieurs incidemment ont réussi à produire leur premier disque suite à leur participation aux concours d'amateurs de la station de Lévis, ont continué de produire des disques depuis ce temps.

9868 Il suffit d'une visite dans les boutiques de disques installées au Festival country de St-Tite-des-Caps, le plus gros et le plus connu au Québec il est vrai, pour constater le nombre impressionnant de CD offerts au public.

9869 Au départ, nous pourrons compter sur au moins 3 000 pièces en français et entre 1 000 et 1 200 en anglais.

9870 Si la musique Country ne tourne pas beaucoup dans les stations de radio du Québec et si, le plus souvent, elle est reléguée dans des portions mal aimées de la grille horaire, ce n'est pas faute de matériel acceptable. La réponse est ailleurs.

9871 Monsieur François Cousineau a déclaré lors de la comparution de Radio Nord à cette audience qu'il a lui-même recommencé à produire de la musique instrumentale depuis que Radio classique a commencé à faire tourner ses oeuvres, ce qu'il ne faisait plus faute de tribune.

9872 Est-il raisonnable de penser que les artistes country puissent réagir aux mêmes motivations?

9873 Si, il y a 70 ans, les stations américaines s'étaient montrées aussi frileuses face à la musique Country que les stations francophones, croyez-vous que Gart Brooks aurait pu vendre près de 200 millions de disques?

9874 Parlerions-nous aujourd'hui de Kenny Rogers, de Carole King, de Shania Twain?

9875 Allons-y maintenant avec les objections des groupes franco-ontariens.

9876 Nous sommes à la fois peinés et surpris de constater un mécontentement de cette amplitude chez les représentants de la communauté franco-ontarienne. On nous reproche principalement le choix du site de notre antenne et aussi le fait que notre demande vienne en conflit avec leur désir de présenter un jour une demande de licence de radiodiffusion.

9877 Parlons d'abord de l'antenne.

9878 La semaine dernière, à cette audience, monsieur Beauséjour, notre ingénieur, a expliqué les raisons qui ont amené la décision d'installer notre antenne du côté ontarien. D'une antenne située à Buckingham, il est possible d'émettre vers l'est, mais non vers l'ouest.

9879 Des collines de Perkins ou de Wakefield, la transmission vers Hull et Gatineau est excellente, mais nous n'étions pas captés ni à Buckingham ni à l'est de Buckingham. La configuration montagneuse du côté québécois crée des zones importantes où notre signal ne serait pas reçu.

9880 Le signal pourrait être perçu pendant, disons, trois kilomètres, disparaître pour un kilomètre, puis réapparaître pour deux autres et ainsi de suite.

9881 La solution proposée est utilisée avec d'excellents résultats par une station communautaire située dans la municipalité Les Escoumins, sur la rive nord du Fleuve St-Laurent.

9882 Les difficultés de transmission ont été réglées par l'installation d'une antenne sur une colline située derrière Trois-Pistoles, sur la rive sud du Fleuve St-Laurent. Il s'agit pour nous d'une décision strictement technique.

9883 Le mécontentement.

9884 En phase I, nous avons parlé de sondage d'opinion. Lors du sondage, plusieurs citoyens, après nous avons demandé s'il s'agissait d'une radio communautaire, avaient paru surpris de s'entendre dire qu'il s'agissait plutôt d'une radio commerciale. Cette réaction nous avait intrigués.

9885 Nous avons eu l'explication lors des rencontres avec les décideurs. L'existence d'un projet de radio communautaire, déjà en marche à Buckingham, nous a alors été révélée.

9886 Nous avons rencontré le promoteur et lui avons expliqué ce que nous voulions faire. Comme notre projet d'implication à la vie communautaire de la région rencontrait la majorité des objectifs poursuivis par son groupe, il a proposé à ses membres de mettre leur projet en veilleuse, ce qui fut fait.

9887 Nous sommes à la fois peinés et surpris de constater la colère, pour ne pas dire la fureur des représentants de la communauté franco-ontarienne et particulièrement du groupe de St-Eugène. Qu'avons-nous fait de mal pour déclencher pareil tollé?

9888 Nous nous sommes bornés à participer à l'appel de demande publié dans l'avis public CRTC 2000-153. Cette démarche très démocratique était ouverte à tous et nous avons décidé d'y participer dans le respect des règles.

9889 A la grogne, nous aurions de beaucoup préféré la discussion. Nous croyons au dialogue et nous aurions été heureux de chercher des solutions constructives. Notre désir de participer à la vie des communautés desservies est sincère et peut facilement franchir le demi kilomètre que représente la rivière des Outaouais. Les gens de Buckingham l'ont compris.

9890 Pour réaliser des objectifs, il peut parfois être plus facile et plus constructif de s'entendre avec un radiodiffuseur privé que d'essayer, à partir de rien, de lancer une station de radio communautaire. Leur solution serait peut-être envisageable aussi pour d'autres groupes.

9891 On veut nous déménager.

9892 Un mot maintenant sur la suggestion de monsieur Farmer qui veut nous déménager de la fréquence 95,7 (canal 239) à la fréquence 96,5 (canal 243). Nous ne pouvons malheureusement pas souscrire à la suggestion de monsieur Farmer.

9893 Dans toutes les facettes de la présentation de notre projet, nos devoirs ont été faits avec sérieux. Le même sérieux a été appliqué à la recherche de la fréquence.

9894 La commande donnée à notre ingénieur était de trouver une fréquence qui permette de couvrir Hull et Gatineau tout en permettant de couvrir Buckingham et le plus loin possible vers l'est. Cette commande devait permettre la réalisation des deux volets du mandat "auditoire" que nous nous sommes donné.

9895 Desservir Buckingham et la périphérie immédiate est techniquement facile; la fréquence 95,7 peut convenir et la fréquence 96,5 aussi.

9896 Le second volet du mandat pose cependant problème.

9897 Nous voulons offrir à l'auditoire francophone de l'Outaouais la possibilité d'écouter de la musique country dans sa langue. Pour réaliser cette partie de notre mandat, nous devons d'abord pouvoir rejoindre les auditeurs.

9898 Monsieur Beauséjour a dressé des cartes de desserte préliminaires pour les deux fréquences et nous sommes arrivés à la même conclusion que monsieur Farmer.

9899 La fréquence 96,5 peut convenir pour Buckingham, mais ne peut pas desservir ni Ottawa, ni Hull, ni aussi la plus grande partie de Gatineau. Nous serions obligés de protéger CHVR Pembrooke, 96,7 FM qui utilise le canal 244.

9900 En fait, dans la direction nord-ouest, notre puissance devrait être réduite à 200 watts. Cette réduction de puissance ramènerait notre contour théorique secondaire pratiquement au même niveau que notre contour primaire dans la direction de Pembrooke.

9901 L'utilisation du 96,5 amputerait notre couverture totale de toute la ville de Hull et des trois-quarts du territoire de Gatineau dans sa partie la plus populeuse.

9902 De plus, comme la station de Pembrooke émet avec beaucoup plus de puissance que la nôtre, notre signal subirait d'importantes interférences à l'intérieur de notre zone de contour théorique secondaire.

9903 Pouvons-nous décemment prétendre remplir la seconde portion de notre mandat en faisant fi de plus de 150 000 auditeurs potentiels francophone à 90 pour cent?

9904 Nous avons expliqué dans notre plan d'affaires que les auditeurs attirent les annonceurs.

9905 C'est pour cette raison que nous visons deux cibles: les citoyens de Buckingham et de la périphérie, soit environ 31 000 personnes, d'une part, et les amateurs francophones de musique Country, d'autre part.

9906 D'après nos estimés, nous devions avoir environ 14 000 auditeurs provenant de Buckingham et la périphérie et 29 000 francophones amateurs de country, recrutés à l'intérieur du contour secondaire. Le cumul des deux groupes devait constituer notre auditoire hebdomadaire total d'environ 43 000 auditeurs.

9907 C'est en vertu de ces estimés, conséquents avec l'utilisation de la fréquence 95,7 que nous avons préparé le plan d'affaires et les états financiers pro forma.

9908 Mais si un changement de fréquence vient nous priver soudainement de plus de la moitié de la population de notre contour total, et si, en plus, la presque totalité de cette population est francophone, notre auditoire hebdomadaire pourrait chuter d'au moins 20 000 auditeurs.

9909 En terme de revenu et de rentabilité, il serait pour le moins téméraire d'aller de l'avant avec le projet sans, au minimum, revoir le plan d'affaires au complet. Même avec la meilleure volonté possible, force est d'admettre que 95,7 est la seule fréquence qui nous permet de respecter notre plan d'affaires.

9910 L'utilisation de la bande AM est impensable côté budget. La fréquence 96,5 ne permet pas de rejoindre une partie suffisante de l'auditoire francophone et compromet grandement les chances de succès du projet.

9911 C'est pourquoi nous sommes en total désaccord avec la proposition de monsieur Farmer.

9912 Madame la présidente, mesdames et messieurs les Commissaires, nous sommes des gens sérieux. La station ne sera pas première dans son marché, mais elle sera rentable. Elle sera probablement la plus faible, en terme de cote d'écoute, dans le marché francophone. Par contre, elle ne sera pas la dernière en matière de marge bénéficiaire.

9913 Depuis le début du processus qui nous réunit ici aujourd'hui, nous avons été respectueux des règlements du CRTC et des engagements que nous avons pris envers l'organisme. Nous avons déposé une demande dans les délais qui nous ont été accordés.

9914 Nous avons déposé un bref technique auprès d'Industrie Canada dans les délais. Nous avons répondu aux demandes de précisions du personnel du CRTC dans les délais. Notre proposition a été trouvée techniquement acceptable par Industrie Canada dans les délais. Nous nous sommes présentés devant vous au moment convenu.

9915 Enfin, lors de notre comparution de Phase I, nous nous sommes engagés à déposer le supplément d'information requis par les commissaires pour le lendemain. Nous avons respecté notre engagement.

9916 Dans presque toutes les décisions du Conseil dont nous avons pris connaissance, la notion d'utilisation optimale d'une fréquence est un incontournable. De par sa nature même une fréquence est destinée à être mise en ondes.

9917 Nous nous demandons donc comment une fréquence "tablettée" peut satisfaire la notion d'utilisation optimale.

9918 Dans cet ordre d'idée, aujourd'hui, je vais prendre personnellement un autre engagement devant vous, madame la présidente.

9919 Si le CRTC nous accorde la fréquence 95,7, CHAO-FM Buckingham sera certainement en ondes dans les délais et tout probablement six mois avant l'expiration du délai. Les gens de la région périphérique de Buckingham, les francophones amateurs de musique country et les petites commerçants vous en remercieront.

9920 Je suis prêt à répondre à vos questions.

9921 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Monsieur Belzile.

9922 Madame Noël, s'il vous plaît.

9923 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Merci, Monsieur Belzile.

9924 Alors j'aurais deux questions qui portent sur les documents que vous nous avez déposés la semaine dernière.

9925 M. BELZILE: Oui.

9926 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Ces questions sont les suivantes. Lors de votre présentation vous nous avez mentionné que la distribution des employés serait un employé polyvalent pouvant effectuer plusieurs taches.

9927 M. BELZILE: Oui.

9928 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Le directeur général, M. Lorrain, et l'équivalent de 1,25 années-personnes pour des pigistes.

9929 M. BELZILE: C'est exact.

9930 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: En sus de ça, vous avez une équipe de vendeurs payés à commission.

9931 M. BELZILE: C'est exact.

9932 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Le détail des dépenses que vous nous avez soumis démontre que le poste salaire indique 100 000 dollars pour la première année et que celui-ci va augmenter environ de 3 pour cent par année par la suite.

9933 Vous nous avez également indiqué que vous alliez prendre un salaire à compter de la deuxième année seulement. Pouvez-nous indiquer sous quelle forme vous allez le faire et est-ce que ça sera sous forme de salaire, de dividendes parce qu'on ne voit pas d'augmentation dans la séquence.

9934 M. BELZILE: Très bien. Je n'ai pas voulu, Madame la Commissaire, aller jouer dans la projection salariale parce que je peux m'arranger avec des dividendes.

9935 Comme vous l'avez vu, la deuxième année génère déjà un bénéfice suffisamment appréciable. Je n'ai pas des besoins énormes. C'est bien sûr que l'aspect véhicule, et cetera, me sera fourni par la station de sorte que, comme l'aspect -- comment je vous dirais bien ça -- dividendes est moins lourdement taxé que l'aspect salaire, j'irai probablement pour cette forme-là.

9936 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant, la deuxième question porte sur la façon de faire fonctionner la station le soir et la nuit. Vous nous avez dit qu'il s'agissait d'une station complètement automatisée.

9937 Est-ce qu'il y aura quelqu'un sur place entre six heures? M. Lorrain nous a dit qu'il partirait à quatre heures et demie.

9938 M. LORRAIN: C'est ça, oui.

9939 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors peut-être que je devrais dire entre quatre heures et demie et six heures le lendemain matin. Est-ce que tout la programmation va être pré-enregistrée et aucun employé ne va être sur place?

9940 M. LORRAIN: Pré-enregistrée.

9941 M. BELZILE: C'est exact.

9942 M. LORRAIN: Et il y a des systèmes de sécurité qui fonctionnent aussi maintenant alors dès qu'il y a ce qu'on appelle un "blanc" à la radio, un silence, on peut le mettre à 30 secondes ou à 20 secondes comme on veut. Le système a déjà tous les numéros de téléphone des gens qui peuvent intervenir rapidement. Ça veut dire qu'il va y avoir quatre ou cinq numéros de téléphone et il y aura continuellement quelqu'un qui fera de l'écoute. Si ce n'est pas moi, ça sera l'autre, si ce n'est pas l'autre ça va Yves Belzile probablement, mais il y aura toujours quelqu'un qui va surveiller.

9943 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Si je comprends bien, vous allez dormir une nuit sur deux.

9944 M. LORRAIN: Bien, connaissez-vous des stations de radio où on écoute 24 heures par jour -- à la direction, je vous parle -- je n'en connais pas.

9945 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Non, mais généralement il y a des techniciens sur place.

9946 M. LORRAIN: Non, il n'y a pas techniciens sur place, c'est ce que je veux dire.

9947 M. LORRAIN: Non, il n'y a pas de techniciens sur place.

9948 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Il n'y a pas de technicien sur place.

9949 M. LORRAIN: Il y a très peu de stations actuellement qui fonctionnent avec des animateurs ou des techniciens la nuit. La plupart sont déjà automatisées ou utilisent des systèmes de vidéo qui fonctionnent pour six heures. Alors à minuit ils appuient là-dessus et puis tout le monde s'en va.

9950 De toute façon avec le système de sécurité qu'on a, qui est un système d'appels du système, alors à ce moment-là ils vont téléphoner chez moi, ils vont téléphoner chez Yves Belzile, ils vont téléphoner chez le producteur, ils vont téléphoner chez tous les gens concernés tant qu'il n'y aura pas de réponse, et tu peux intervenir par téléphone. Ton système va savoir c'est quoi le problème.

9951 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: C'est ça que je veux savoir. Vous n'avez pas besoin de vous habiller, sauter dans votre voiture et vous rendre à la station.

9952 M. LORRAIN: Pas du tout, pas du tout.

9953 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Vous pouvez le faire à distance.

9954 M. LORRAIN: Et puis on va se doter aussi de génératrices d'urgence à la station et aussi à l'émetteur --

9955 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Qui entre en fonction dès qu'il y a une interruption de courant.

9956 M. LORRAIN: Dès qu'il y a une interruption de courant et le système lui-même automatique est doté d'un autre système de sécurité qui permet d'opérer -- même s'il n'y a pas d'électricité, même si la génératrice ne partait pas, pendant au moins une heure de temps le système va générer sa propre puissance et on ne perdra rien.

9957 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Une batterie de secours, comme on dit.

9958 M. LORRAIN: Pardon?

9959 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Une batterie de secours.

9960 M. LORRAIN: Oui, oui, c'est comme ça qu'on l'appelle.

9961 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Juste une question additionnelle. Je ne vous ai pas entendus commenter sur la demande de modification de M. Kirk. Est-ce que vous aviez des commentaires à faire.

9962 M. BELZILE: Nous n'avons pas de problème avec ça du tout, Madame.

9963 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Je vous remercie, Madame la Présidente.

9964 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Monsieur Belzile, Monsieur Lorrain.

9965 M. LORRAIN: Merci. Bonjour.

9966 Madame la Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

9967 MS POIRIER: I would now invite Newcap Incorporated.

9968 THE CHAIRPERSON: Proceed when you are ready.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

9969 MR. ROB STEELE: Good morning, Madam Chair, members of the Commission and staff.

9970 If I may reintroduce myself. I'm Rob Steele and to my John Steele and to my left, Bob Templeton.

9971 The applicants before you at this hearing represent the variety of population groups that make up our country. There are strong cases to be made to satisfy the needs of each with a variety of programming proposals, particularly when you factor in the number of frequencies which are available.

9972 We believe you can award multiple licences here and add quality and diversity without upsetting the economics of the broadcast market. In fact, we feel that additional revenues will be generated with new formats because they reach demographic groups that are increasing in numbers and who are not being served by current radio formats.

9973 New stations in viable niche formats will reach out to listeners who are less satisfied, increasing their listening to radio and making subgroups more efficient for advertisers to target.

9974 As we and other applicants have pointed out, the Ottawa radio market has grown historically at a rate of 8 per cent. Continued growth in radio at only half this rate would general enough new radio revenues to meet the projections of several new stations without adversely affecting the growth expectations of existing operators.

9975 MR. JOHN STEELE: Ottawa has a vibrant dance club scene with approximately 100 clubs in operation. As the DJs and club owners pointed out to you on Monday morning, every night these clubs are filled with as many as 20,000 patrons. This is ethnically diverse clientele from a wide variety of age groups, but in particular in the group 18 to 34.

9976 Peter Doering's research confirms this anecdotal evidence. Only our research tested interest in a large number of music formats in the region. Of the 19 formats tested, dance and its affiliated formats of urban and urban AC have double the interest of the other English-language format proposed here, NAC/Smooth Jazz. In fact, The Planet will reach a large underserved portion of the region's listeners, generating a 7.5 per cent share of hours tuned.

9977 Mr. Doering's research shows our target market is more than twice as likely to be dissatisfied with the radio choices available to them.

9978 BBM data confirmed that the 18 to 34 age group in the National Capital Region tunes 20 per cent fewer hours to radio per week than does the 35+ group.

9979 Our research, as well as Standard's and Telemedia's, shows the NAC/Smooth Jazz format to only have a 7 to 9 per cent level of very interested respondents which will translate into a maximum share of 4 per cent of hours tuned. This share is higher than what is generally garnered by American smooth jazz stations.

9980 As the intervenors from the music community pointed out on Monday, the dance fan is neither a rock fan nor a pop fan. They want an eclectic mix of hip-hop, R&B, world beat, reggae and Latin music all propelled by a strong rhythmic groove.

9981 As the intervenors point out, they aren't finding much of this in the existing Ottawa radio scene, except for a few community radio programs, one of which is overnight.

9982 The dance music scene is also artistically vibrant in the region. As Mr. Tessier pointed out on Monday, local group Capital Sound is a Juno award winner in this category, but their records get little or no commercial airplay in the area.

9983 Some local artists have smash hits in Europe, but their records are only played in clubs in their own hometown.

9984 The Planet will provide them a long-needed outlet for their music on the airwaves. The 2.625 million dollars in funding to FACTOR will allow them to strengthen their recordings while also underwriting better promotion and marketing. A variety of indirect support for artists will supplement our cash contributions.

9985 MR. ROB STEELE: In making your decision on new licences for Ottawa, we understand that you have to be guided by the public interest and the demands of the Broadcasting Act and we believe that out application meets these requirements as well or better than any other applicant that you have heard.

9986 In terms of the diversity, we will provide a new and diverse musical choice to Ottawa, and one that will serve a wide cross-section of the 18 to 44 age group.

9987 The Planet will introduce a new owner to the Ottawa market and an additional newsroom of eight people. The 34 new employees of The Planet will reflect the demographic profile of the region from day one. Our projected spending on programming is almost twice that of any other applicant at this hearing.

9988 At 40 per cent, our Canadian content is the highest proposal at this hearing, and we will provide exposure for many Canadian dance and urban artists who aren't currently receiving it. At least half our Canadian content will be new music, giving a further push to these talented Canadian artists.

9989 We are pledging $5.25 million in support for Canadian talent, half of which will go to FACTOR in direct support for local artists. The other half will go to Aboriginal Voices Radio to underwrite high-quality Aboriginal radio programming, both here in the National Capital and across the country.

9990 An additional three-quarters of a million dollars in indirect costs will supplement our cash contribution.

9991 We believe that we will bring a new energy to Ottawa's radio scene with a new and exciting format. Not only will we fill a large musical gap in the marketplace, we will provide a radio station that is fun and tapping into the energy of an audience that is passionate about this music.

9992 Our audience is largely the age group that follows the baby boom who are not interested in oldies, classic rock and ballad-driven adult contemporary. They are active, they go out and they have disposable income to spend and they want to have a radio station that reflects their lifestyle.

9993 We hope that you agree that our proposals are worthy of receiving a licence in this community.

9994 Thank you for your time and your attention. We appreciate it.

9995 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, messieurs Steele and Mr. Templeton.

9996 I gather from your silence that you have no objection to Mr. Kirk's proposal for amendment.

9997 MR. ROB STEELE: We discussed at length. In direct response, we do not object to Mr. Kirk's application.

9998 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

9999 We want to make sure in case some members of the -- some applicants were not in the room, so I would appreciate it if you indicated clearly that you have no objection so I wouldn't have to ask. I'm not sure if everybody was there when we heard Mr. Kirk.

10000 Thank you very much.

10001 Are you off to Newfoundland today?

10002 MR. ROB STEELE: Tonight.

10003 THE CHAIRPERSON: Tonight?

10004 MR. ROB STEELE: To Nova Scotia.

10005 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, to Nova Scotia? I hope it's not as cold as it is in my garden.

--- Laughter / Rires

10006 MR. ROB STEELE: It's worse.

10007 THE CHAIRPERSON: For those who were here yesterday, if my garden freezes I'm going to White Rose and purchasing plastic flowers. That should fool the squirrels.

10008 Madame la Secrétaire.

10009 Mme POIRIER: Merci, Madame la Présidente.

10010 Je viens d'être avisée que les représentants de Fondation Radio Enfant sont en retard. Donc je vais appeler la prochaine requérante.

10011 The next reply is presented by 1914258 Ontario Limited, Infinity, and I don't think Mr. Ray is in the room either. I haven't seen him.

10012 So the next one would be Harvard Development Incorporated.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

10013 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Cowie.

10014 MR. COWIE: Madam Chairperson, Commissioners, Commission staff. Good morning.

10015 I am Bruce Cowie, Vice-President of Harvard Developments Incorporated and with great thanks to Commissioner Cardozo, the newest member of the board of Harvard Developments.

10016 I am here today to address the direct interventions --

10017 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Am I on the board?

10018 MR. COWIE: I am.

--- Laughter / Rires

10019 MR. COWIE: You asked the question, we replied.

10020 I am here today to address the direct interventions that were filed against our NAC/Smooth Jazz application for Ottawa/Hull. I would like also to clarify for the record some of the representations made of our application by other applicants.

10021 We note that Standard Broadcasting has raised the issue of the change of ownership of our proposed service. As discussed with the Commission during questions, the change represents no material alteration in the application and as such should not result in any substantive concerns on behalf of competing applicants.

10022 In terms of the intervention filed by CanWest Global in regards to the use of the 89.9 frequency, we have been informed by Industry Canada that they will approve the use of 89.9, as long as the affected radiated power does not exceed 50 kilowatts. As the Commission has noted, our application is for a service operating at 40 kilowatts.

10023 I will address the remainder of my comments to issues surrounding our application that have been raised by other applicants.

10024 There has been a suggestion that our consumer demand research exaggerates the potential for the NAC/Smooth Jazz format and subsequently, that our estimates for share are out of line with what is realistically achievable.

10025 I would like to assure the Commission that we have approached this application with the same care and thoroughness we would any business venture.

10026 In light of comments made at this hearing, we have carefully reviewed our research. The indications of consumer demand are sound, as is our representation of the potential of the format. We have not described the interest in NAC/Smooth Jazz as being overwhelming, nor have we suggested that the size of the audience for The Breeze will ever surpass the audience for stations with more popular adult contemporary or rock-based formats.

10027 What we have confidently stated however is that we have identified an underserved demographic. According to tuning patterns identified by BBM data for Ottawa/Hull, there is a gap the service for 25-34 and 45-54.

10028 We investigated two formats. We chose NAC/Smooth Jazz because the format represented a completely new choice and a new sound for the Ottawa market.

10029 The format would have the least impact on existing broadcasters. The high instrumental content attracts audiences cross-culturally. It represents the greatest contribution to Canada talent development by directly funding artists who are generally underfunded or ignored. The demographics of the audience match both the market profile and the interests of an identifiable and significant group of advertisers.

10030 Our research was conducted using industry prescribed standards and safeguards. Our audience estimates were created by discounting the indications of interest from our consumer study, by a method represented to the Commission in the document itself. This is a method that is used in programming research North America wide.

10031 On first glance, a direct comparison of our shares with those achieved by U.S. stations programming NAC/Smooth Jazz would suggest that we are overly optimistic.

10032 However, the context does not permit this comparison. The numbers provided by Mr. Kirk are in fact the average of all stations offering this programming that are members of Arbitron and represent a variety of cities and locales. Given the expansion of the format into markets across the United States, all of these stations are in various phases of maturity and averaging these numbers provides a distorted view.

10033 Where the format has had the benefit of time, Arbitron estimates report that NAC/Smooth Jazz is in the top ten in terms of share and, in fact, in some markets is in the top three.

10034 It is also important to note that most markets in the U.S. have exponentially more originating stations and offer more local choice than any market in Canada could support. A review of Arbitron data shows the shares achieved by stations in the U.S.across a variety of formats are lesser than those realized in Canada. While the U.S. can ad should be used as a guide, it cannot be used as an absolute benchmark.

10035 Madam Chairperson, members of the Commission and Commission staff, Harvard believes the time for the next steps in the introduction of NAC/Smooth Jazz in Canada is here and now in a market that is ready for it.

10036 We said in Vancouver that the format would evolve over time. In the short period since that hearing, we have worked very hard with Commission staff, with our expert consultants and other smooth jazz operators to ensure that this application was right and would succeed within a specialty licence.

10037 We want to thank the Commission staff for the valuable time and attention they provided in helping us to understand the categorization of music and in helping to identify additional sources of Canadian content.

10038 We believe that if The Breeze is licensed, Ottawa/Hull will have a new radio station that serves the particular needs and interests of the market.

10039 Thank you for your time and for your attention.

10040 Madam Chair, with respect to the request by Kirk for a change in their format designation, Harvard will accept the Commission's decision. With respect to that request, we don't find that the application has been changed materially and it should not negatively affect us in any way.

10041 I would say, however, that the discussion that began in Vancouver and has carried on and the search that has carried on in trying to find the proper categorizations for music has been ongoing and the answers were available. We found them and came prepared. In other words, Madam Chair, we did our homework.

10042 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, but you were not on the board yet.

10043 MR. COWIE: No, I was not.

10044 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I thought you owned that to Mr. Cardozo's question.

10045 MR. COWIE: Well, Mr. Cardozo asked the question --

10046 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, provided you with a confirmation.

10047 MR. COWIE: No, there was no proviso involved with it. Commissioner Cardozo asked the question and Mr. Hill made the appointment on the spot.

10048 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's what I mean.

10049 MR. COWIE: So I'm very thankful to him for that.

10050 THE CHAIRPERSON: That was an amendment to your application.

--- Laughter / Rires

10051 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's why you would have been the last person to be in a good position to --

10052 MR. COWIE: That's correct.

10053 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- object. Now, do you get what I am talking about?

10054 MR. COWIE: I do.

10055 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Est-ce qu'il y a quelqu'un de chez Radio Enfant ici parce que vous êtes censés comparaître, comme on l'a annoncé au début de l'audience, dans l'ordre opposé à celui où vous avez été entendus. Il y a déjà eu un changement dans le --

10056 Est-ce qu'il y a quelqu'un ici de chez --

10057 Is someone here from the Infinity group?

10058 Madame la Secrétaire.

10059 Mme POIRIER: Alors nous allons maintenant entendre la réplique de Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais.

RÉPLIQUE / REPLY

10060 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour, Monsieur Trépanier et Madame Sincennes.

10061 M. TRÉPANIER: Bonjour.

10062 Mme SINCENNES: Bonjour.

10063 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Monsieur Maheu, Monsieur Roy.

10064 M. TRÉPANIER: Comme c'est la nature de notre radio, nous sommes fidèles.

--- Rires / Laughter

10065 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Monsieur Trépanier, je vous ai vu ici. Vous êtes prêt à devenir le président ou le vice-président ou un des conseillers maintenant. Vous avez eu tout un cours.

10066 M. TRÉPANIER: Je dois vous avouer que c'est une déformation professionnelle. J'ai été journaliste toute ma vie et puis au temps où je couvrais les événements, les journalistes assistaient à tout l'événement. On ne faisait pas de journalisme de chauffard où on venait juste faire une saucette. Alors j'ai cette habitude et je la conserve.

10067 Alors, Madame la Présidente, mesdames et messieurs les conseillers et les conseillères. Nous utiliserons ce précieux temps pour réaffirmer l'heureuse alternative, le choix unique que le projet Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais offre à l'auditoire francophone de l'Outaouais québécois et ontarien.

10068 Je vais simplement rappeler les grandes caractéristiques de notre projet qui sont les suivantes :

10069 Une radio religieuse. Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais est donc une radio religieuse d'inspiration chrétienne ouverte aux autres religions ainsi qu'aux grands courants mondiaux de spiritualité.

10070 Une radio francophone. Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais est une radio en langue française entièrement au service, entre autres, de l'importante minorité francophone de l'est de l'Ontario en complément de CHRI qui dessert elle la population de langue anglaise de la capitale nationale et de ses régions.

10071 Une radio distinctive. Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais présente un son tout à fait différent de celui que nous offre ordinairement la radio commerciale, c'est-à-dire un rythme qui relève davantage de la sérénité, favorise le calme, privilégie la réflexion sur les valeurs et les enjeux susceptibles de concourir à l'émergence de courants d'humanité dans la société.

10072 Une radio qui s'inscrit dans la poussée de la recherche du spirituel dans la religion et dans la vie. Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais s'inscrit dans une rechercher générale de plus en plus poussée de l'aspect davantage spirituel de la religion, autant chez les gens qui professent une appartenance à une église ou à un mouvement religieux, que chez ceux qui n'adhèrent à aucun culte.

10073 Une radio aussi qui vient de la base. Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais est une radio issue de la communauté, de la demande populaire, des gens qui ont entendu CIRA-FM de Montréal et qui ont exprimé le désir de capter une même radio ici à Ottawa/Hull, dans l'ouest québécois et dans l'est ontarien, résultant, après quelques années pour un group de plus en plus large de personnes à y rêver, d'une première réunion d'information en janvier 2000, suivie de la mise sur pied d'un comité d'étude de faisabilité, puis de mise en oeuvre et, finalement, de la création d'une coopération chargée de mener le projet à bien.

10074 Une radio financée par la communauté. Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais compte essentiellement pour son financement sur l'appui de ses sociétaires, des diverses églises, des nombreuses communautés religieuses, d'entreprises et d'individus qui éprouvent pour elle une certain empathie et, bien sûr, de celui de ses auditeurs.

10075 Une radio sur un modèle de réussite. Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais se modèle sur la station radiophonique montréalaises CIRA-FM dont le succès a été éprouvé depuis six ans qu'elle existe et reconnu par le CRTC lui-même, une radio qui jouira de la plus grande partie de la programmation de CIRA-FM Montréal au cours de ses premières années, pour diffuser le plus rapidement sa propre programmation locale et régionale grâce à l'apport d'artisans, de collaborateurs et d'intervenants du milieu-même.

10076 En conclusion, Madame la Présidente, mesdames et messieurs les conseillères et conseillers, nous espérons avoir fait la démonstration du besoin d'une radio différente, une radio religieuse oecuménique de langue française qui vient quelque peu équilibrer le service radiophonique offert présentement aux éditeurs francophones de cette région de l'Outaouais.

10077 Nous vous remercions de votre accueil et de l'accueil empressé également de votre personnel et de cette attention que vous avez portée à notre requête.

10078 Je voudrais ajouter aussi que nous n'avons, bien sûr, pas d'objection au changement quant au format de la radio de M. Kirk.

10079 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Nous vous remercions, Monsieur Trépanier.

10080 Je peux vous dire que vous avez pleine reconnaissance pour votre loyauté au procès.

10081 Merci.

10082 M. TRÉPANIER: Merci.

10083 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Nous allons maintenant prendre une pause de 15 minutes, et nous reprendrons après.

--- Upon recessing at 1020 / Suspension à 1020

--- Upon resuming at 1050 / Reprise à 1050

10084 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Madame la Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

10085 Mme POIRIER: Merci, Madame la Présidente.

10086 Nous allons maintenant entendre la réplique de Fondation Radio Enfant.

10087 A vous, Monsieur Delorme.

RÉPLIQUE / REPLY

10088 M. DELORME: Merci, Madame. Merci, Madame la Présidente.

10089 On s'excuse du retard. Il y a eu une petite confusion. On est en train d'installer une radio à Laurier Carrière. Ils vont faire une pratique demain de Radio Enfant.

10090 Donc nous voilà rendus au terme de l'exercice d'examen public de notre requête. Nous sommes satisfaits de l'expérience et croyons avoir démontré la pertinence et la valeur du projet de Radio Enfant/Ado.

10091 En guise de conclusion, nous aimerions rappeler l'enjeu de cette audience et présenter au Conseil quelques propositions.

10092 Nous avons l'impression d'avoir bien communiqué notre enthousiasme pour le projet d'une radio communautaire francophone pour la région de l'est ontarien et l'Outaouais québécois dédiée aux enfants et aux adolescents.

10093 Nous sommes cependant bien conscients que de larges secteurs dans notre proposition font encore l'objet d'inquiétudes pour le Conseil. Les commissaires ont exprimé à plusieurs reprises un doute sur le bien-fondé d'un service dédié aux enfants/ados.

10094 Pour nous le témoignage des jeunes et de ceux qui sont chargés de leur éducation ont été très éloquents. Nous croyons être rendus à l'étape où une société comme celle du Canada se doit de laisser la parole à nos jeunes et le moyen de s'exprimer et profiter d'un service qui vise à bien les servir.

10095 Si vous avez encore des doutes sur la nécessité d'accorder cette licence dans le contexte actuel de la radio dans la région, il nous sera difficile de ne jamais vous convaincre.

10096 Vos principales préoccupations portent surtout sur le financement. Ce n'est pourtant pas un précédent au Canada cette situation où une radio communautaire ne peut fournir toutes les preuves de financement exigées. La majorité des radios communautaires francophones du Canada ont sollicité leur licence sans avoir plus de garanties financières.

10097 L'attribution de la licence du Réseau des radios francophones s'est faite dans des conditions similaires. Les engagements financiers ont été confirmés une fois la licence accordée.

10098 Le Conseil pourrait revoir sa procédure qui oblige les représentants gouvernementaux d'avoir des réserves face à une procédure d'analyse où l'appui a un projet signifie obligatoirement une opposition aux autres demandes.

10099 Pour nous, les appuis sont suffisamment signifiants pour nous permettre d'accepter comme condition de licence que la station soit en ondes dans les 12 mois suivants une décision favorable.

10100 C'est vous dire comment nous sommes confiants que les partenaires qui nous ont exprimé leur soutien seront au rendez-vous pour la mise en ondes de la première radio enfant/ado au Canada.

10101 Pour être plus précis, voici comment nous envisageons les prochaines étapes. L'octroi d'une licence de radio FM pour desservir la population francophone de l'est ontarien et l'Outaouais va de soi. Elle constitue l'élément premier de l'opération.

10102 Nous accepterions que la licence nous soit accordée pour une période plus courte afin de procéder à une évaluation de l'expérience. Nous demandons au Conseil d'accepter que le groupe Astral Média puisse accorder une contribution à la Radio Enfant comme un avantage tangible à la programmation canadienne dans le cadre de son acquisition de 27 stations de radio, donc une transaction de 255 millions.

10103 Une contribution de 1 pour cent de la valeur de cette transaction permettra de réaliser la phase initiale d'implantation du nouveau service sans axer sa programmation vers une forte commercialisation.

10104 Pendant cette période de cinq ans, la Radio Enfant/Ado de la capitale nationale sera de nature non commerciale en mettant l'accent sur la diversification des sources de revenus de la station, entre autres, par un financement populaire et celui de partenariats à des productions radiophoniques de nature éducative pour atteindre d'ici cinq ans 60 pour cent de ses revenus.

10105 Nous développerons des outils de formation et soutiendrons l'essor de cette pratique de participation des enfants aux médias. Nous faciliterons la réalisation d'expériences similaires partout au Canada.

10106 Nous établirons des ententes avec des institutions de recherches spécialisées dans les études des médias et les jeunes afin de bien saisir toutes les dimensions de l'expérience et de mesurer son impact.

10107 Nous proposerons une collaboration aux réseaux francophones d'Amérique pour des échanges d'émissions dans la mesure où les émissions correspondent à notre promesse de réalisation. Nous pourrons donc ainsi entendre dans la région de la capitale nationale les émissions produites par les enfants de toutes les régions du Canada français.

10108 Le CRTC devra être clair dans sa décisions à l'égard des instances gouvernementales pour les inciter à soutenir la réalisation de ce projet mettant en profit la participation des enfants et adolescents à la communication par les médias, notamment la radio.

10109 Enfin, nous souhaitons que le Conseil s'engage dans une réflexion sur la contribution des enfants 5-18 à la programmation canadienne et les diverses formes de participation aux médias afin que le droit des enfants à l'expression reconnue dans la Charte des droits de l'enfant, signée par le Canada, s'actualise par des formes nouvelles de participation aux médias.

10110 Merci de votre attention tout au long de cette audience.

10111 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Monsieur Delorme.

10112 Monsieur Delorme, vous êtes au courant que M. Kirk, la première requérante qui a été entendue ce matin, a proposé une modification à son projet "smooth jazz". Nous avons accordé à chaque requérante la possibilité d'apporter une objection à cette modification avant que nous l'acceptions.

10113 Nous vous demandons si vous êtes au courant et est-ce que vous avez objection.

10114 M. DELORME: On m'a informé de cette modification et on n'a pas d'objection.

10115 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Je vous remercie, Monsieur Delorme.

10116 M. DELORME: Merci.

10117 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Je suppose que nous n'avions pas de questions.

10118 Madame la Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

10119 Mme POIRIER: Merci, Madame la Présidente.

10120 We will now hear the reply presented by 1914258 Ontario Limited, Infinity.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

10121 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. and Mrs. Ray, and Mr. Robson.

10122 MS RAY: Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

10123 Madam Chair and Commissioners, Infinity wishes to rebut certain points raised within the context of these proceedings which, if left unchallenged, would cast Infinity's application for ethnic broadcasting undertaking on 89.9 FM in an unfair light.

10124 As part of these broadcast proceedings, considerable discussion was focused on market demand and audiences to be served. Various applicants claimed that their chosen programming format represented the largest demand for service and hence would best respond to the underserved portion of the market.

10125 While Infinity understands our fellow applicants' motivation, we do not agree with their claims. Our proposal to establish the first dedicated full-service commercial ethnic radio station on 89.9 FM within Ottawa/Hull, far and above represents the single largest demand for radio programming service within the National Capital Region.

10126 Infinity, in directly responding to this demand, will extend first-time ethnic programming to 19 cultural communities in 20 different languages, representing more than 400,000 unserved ethnic Canadians within the Ottawa/Hull region.

10127 Further, with respect to the size of the ethnic population within the Ottawa/Hull region, Infinity would underline that two well-researched ethnic proposals independently arrived at the same population figures. Both Infinity and CHIN used the same database from the 1996 census, with the only difference being that Infinity updated its figures by factoring in the influx of 8,000 immigrants per year to the Ottawa/Hull region and adding them to the 1996 figure of 360,000 persons of minority ethnic origin.

10128 MR. RAY: Next, with respect to the question of commercial viability of an ethnic station in the Ottawa/Hull radio market, Infinity would first point to the discussion of the CHIN-1540 Limited's application.

10129 In response to a question as to whether CHIN thought it possible for someone to implant in Ottawa/Hull a station with 37 cultural groups and 20 different languages without the synergies of having the experience in other stations elsewhere, CHIN stated:

"I think it would be very difficult for that type of stand-alone operation to be successful".

10130 CHIN went on to say that the synergies they were able to bring to the station reflect savings of $150,000 to $200,000 annually which in turn would go to serving the smaller communities.

10131 Madam Chair and Commissioners, Infinity strongly submits that CHIN's response to that question is somewhat self-serving and not supported by the facts. To begin with, Infinity would not be before the Commission seeking this licence if our proposal for Ottawa/Hull had no hope of being commercially viable as a stand-along ethnic FM station.

10132 Secondly, Infinity's professional market research by the highly reputable, nationally known Bay Consulting Group, and our own in-depth on the ground, in the community consultation process left no doubt as to the economic viability and long-term success of Infinity's proposed ethnic station on 89.9 FM.

10133 Thirdly, Infinity suggests that if any broadcasting entity, faced with the unique market opportunity of serving a captive audience of 400,000 unserved ethnic Canadians and a large, vibrant and untapped, unserved business community cannot be viable and ultimately extremely successful, then they should not be in the broadcasting business.

10134 Fourth, given the above-noted factors relative to Ottawa/Hull's ethnic marketplace opportunity, it is simply not credible to suggest that only a multiple station owner, with synergies to apply can be viable and successful in Ottawa/Hull.

10135 Fifth, if Infinity, in serving 400,000 ethnic Canadians and an untapped ethnic business community cannot be viable, then how can any mainstream applicant proposing to target and serve a much smaller audience demographic with a narrow specialty format and an already well-canvassed, well-served mainstream business community ever hope to succeed in the Ottawa/Hull market?

10136 Sixth, somehow lost in the midst, is the fact that Infinity's proposal has already generated some $465,000 in unsolicited advertising commitments from just one segment of the ethnic business community without us lifting a finger.

10137 This clearly demonstrates the incredible need and demand by ethnic business owners for a cost-effective radio advertising vehicle for them to target and serve those ethnocultural communities that are of specific interest to them beyond their own language groups.

10138 Finally, with respect to CHIN stating that it would apply the $150,000 to $200,000 in annual savings from applied synergies towards serving smaller communities, Infinity would remind the Commission that its revenues from the World Beat music component of its program schedule, some $269,000 in year one alone, will be used to subsidize the smaller communities we propose to serve. This is totally in keeping with the provisions of the Commission's ethnic broadcasting policy.

10139 MS RAY: Madam Chair and Commissioners, after hearing the CHIN and Infinity applications in Phase I, and listening to 20 exceptional presentations from outside intervenors supporting both applicants in Phase III, the predominant theme and common conclusion evolving from the process is that Ottawa/Hull badly needs a dedicated full-service ethnic radio station to target and serve the region's large and ever-growing multicultural population.

10140 While the two applications have their distinguishing differences in terms of programming models, local ownership and board representation and Infinity's focus on locally relevant community driven programming versus CHIN's more regionalized approach, both propose to serve the region's various ethnocultural communities in 20 different languages and both are relatively close in their revenue projections and market expectation.

10141 In the final analysis, the Commission's choice is between CHIN, as an experienced long-standing ethnic broadcasting licensee, and Infinity as an experience ethnic broadcaster seeking its first radio licence.

10142 Much has been said by CHIN supporters about its 35 years of experience, its track record and its financial strength and synergies, among other accolades.

10143 While Infinity respect the significant contribution that CHIN's broadcast organization has made to Canada's ethnic broadcasting sector over the past 35 years, we take serious issue with the notion by some that only CHIN, because of its experience and track record, can successfully launch and operate Ottawa/Hull's first ethnic radio station.

10144 One of the great strengths of Canada's broadcasting sector over the years has been its willingness to accept new participants with new ideas, new energies and new investment dollars.

10145 If in today's environment Canada's broadcasting industry, and in particular its much smaller ethnic broadcasting sector, becomes a closed shop, and experienced ethnic broadcasting entrepreneurs like Infinity continue to have the ownership door closed in our face, then we will never have the opportunity to achieve a track record as owners.

10146 MR. ROBSON: Madam Chair and Commissioners.

10147 Infinity is no less worthy of this Ottawa/Hull ethnic broadcasting opportunity, should the Commission decide to licence a multicultural, multilingual radio station. We have a very strong and credible application. We have a solid achievable business plan, a highly processional broadcast mean, broadly-based community support from Ottawa/Hull's ethnocultural communities, and a firm resolve to provide the National Capital Region's multicultural population with the world class radio station that it deserves.

10148 It is important to underline the fact that Infinity's President, Neeti Ray, is not a new player to broadcasting. Rather, he has over 21 years of solid, diverse multilingual broadcasting experience.

10149 Neeti played a leading role in bringing Edmonton's CKER ethnic radio station to air and helped in the development of the station's unique multilingual programming model.

10150 After moving to Toronto, Neeti successfully developed Radio India which provided the large and badly underserved South Asian community within the Greater Toronto Region within 61.5 hours per week of world-class programming for nearly ten years. During this time, Radio India attracted a large audience and generated nearly $500,000 per year in advertising revenues.

10151 While CHIN has been portrayed by its supporters as being innovative broadcasters, Infinity would invite the Commission to go back to its Toronto application for 740 AM and compare its programming model to that of CHIN's.

10152 Essentially, what you will find is that Infinity developed an innovative approach to equitably allocating time to the language groups it proposed to serve in a manner whereby even the smallest community got nothing less than two hours of programming time each week between the 6:00 a.m. to midnight portion of the regulated broadcast day.

10153 By comparison, the CHIN application at that time was still allocating 30 minutes of programming time per week to some of the smaller communities.

10154 Infinity has carried its same model forward to Ottawa and upon reviewing the CHIN application, we find that they have also adopted as similar approach to allocating programming time on a more equitable basis to the smaller language groups.

10155 We also took note of the announcement yesterday by one of CHIN's supporter that they agreed to incorporate Mandarin programming into their Ottawa schedule.

10156 By way of interest, we would note that Infinity, upon consultation with the Ottawa/Hull Chinese community several months ago, incorporated both Mandarin and Cantonese programming into its broadcasting schedule from the very outset.

10157 It is also important to stress the point that the Commission's licensing of Infinity for Ottawa-Hull takes nothing away from the Canadian Broadcasting system. In actual fact, the licensing of Infinity will add an entire new universe of Ethnic programming diversity and listener choice for the benefit of Ottawa-Hull's multicultural population and a new element of diversity amongst the ownership ranks of the Canadian broadcasting system.

10158 MR. RAY: Madam Chair and Commissioners, I would have to add that the $465,000 in unsolicited pre-bookings by the Ethnic business community and the 1,818 letters of support filed with the Commission are more than indicative of the acceptance and demand for infinity's proposed Ethnic undertaking on 89.9 FM and the local programming model that we will implement.

10159 Infinity agreed with Newcap's view that there is a need for small, medium, and large players within Canada's broadcasting system.

10160 Within Ottawa-Hull, it is our view that Infinity, as an independent applicant, will best serve the needs of the Region's large, growing and unserved multicultural population.

10161 Infinity's majority owners are professional, visible minority career broadcasters who have spent half a lifetime to become a permanent part of the Canadian broadcasting system. We are dedicated to multiculturalism and its advancement. We are committed to making a difference within Canada's broadcasting system, and we are here for the long term.

10162 Madam Chair and Commissioners, it is for all of the above reasons and many unspoken reasons in the fullness of our application, that Infinity should be viewed as the applicant who will best optimise the utilization of the 89.9 FM frequency and use it to the greatest advantage and benefit of Ottawa-Hull's diverse multicultural population and the Canadian broadcasting system.

10163 MR. ROBSON: Madam Chair, we would simply add that Infinity has no objection to the changes made relative to the Kirk application.

10164 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Robson. Thank you, Mr. and Mrs. Ray. Thank you for your reply this morning. Madame la secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

10165 Mme POIRIER: Merci, madame la présidente. We will now hear the reply from Radio 1540 Limited.

RÉPLIQUE / REPLY

10166 MR. LOMBARDI: Good morning, madam Chair, Commissioners.

10167 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Lombardi and your colleagues.

10168 MR. LOMBARDI: My name is Lenny Lombardi and I am president of CHIN Radio 1540 Limited. With me are Bob Culliton, our vice-president Finance and general manager of CHIN, Angelina Cacciato, our committee advisor and member of our Advisory Board and Mr. John Hylton, our legal counsel for this application.

10169 When we appeared to present our application, Commissioner Pennefather asked us to respond in writing to some of the questions with respect to our Canadian talent development initiatives. We will have filed those responses with the hearing secretary at the conclusion of the hearing today.

10170 In our reply, we will address four major issues raised by the interveners. The need for an ethnic radio station, the importance of local programming, the importance of ethnic programming, and the most effective and efficient use of available radio frequencies.

10171 Many interveners have spoken very eloquently about the urgent need for an ethnic radio station and, obviously, we agree with that. There was a large diverse and rapidly growing ethnic population here in the National Capital Region. That population has needs which can only be met by a local ethnic radio station.

10172 We specifically asked our researchers to measure the demand for an ethnic radio station among ethnic listeners. An overwhelming 72 per cent of all ethnic respondents said that they would listen to a radio station that we are proposing to establish.

10173 Many interveners spoke of the important role that local programming could play in reflecting and meeting the needs of local ethnic communities. They spoke of their pride in their communities and they expressed their strong belief that the life of those communities should be reflected on the airwaves and we agree.

10174 Interveners who supported our application strongly endorsed our local and regional programming proposals. Every hour of programming that we provide will reflect and serve local ethnic communities.

10175 Regional programming will be jointly produced by our proposed new radio station here in Ottawa-Hull and our established radio stations in Toronto. It will provide a unique opportunity for the members of the ethnic communities here and in Toronto to work together to create programming that addresses shared issues and interests.

10176 This enhanced level of programming in community service is a unique feature of our application, which is only possible because we are an established ethnic radio broadcasting company.

10177 Many interveners have described for you how important it is for them and their communities to have access to local ethnic radio programming in their mother tongue or heritage language. We agree with those interveners. Ethnic programming should be the priority for a new ethnic radio station because that is the programming that is in most demand in this market among ethnic audiences and because that would be the best way to serve the objectives of the ethnic broadcasting policy.

10178 Both applicants for an ethnic radio station filed public opinion research. That research clearly shows that the greatest demand among members of the ethnic community is for news and information in their mother tongue or heritage language.

10179 None ethnic programming such as World Beat Music is at best a second priority. We will directly respond to the greatest needs in this market by devoting 98 per cent of our programming schedule to ethnic programming.

10180 In its intervention, Infinity suggested that the Commission should award a licence to an applicant who will make the best use of the frequency. The Commission clearly set out how it would define the best use of a frequency by an ethnic radio station in the ethnic broadcasting policy.

10181 The Commission stated that a balance may be struck between the two priorities, serving as many groups as practical and providing high quality programming to those groups that are served.

10182 Further, the Commission stated that it would weigh the ability of ethnic stations to provide appropriate amounts of quality programming to these groups.

10183 We can provide 123 and a half hours of the highest quality ethnic programming each week and serve the greatest number of ethnic cultural groups here in the NCR because we are an established ethnic radio broadcasting company with access to significant synergies and operating efficiencies.

10184 Some interveners such as the Caisse populaire Orléans have urged the Commission not to grant any licences at this time. We acknowledge that the Commission must address a wide variety of needs in its licensing decision.

10185 It has been suggested that at least four FM frequencies are available: 88.5, 89.9, 95.7 and 97.9. We chose frequency 97.9 because at 800 watts it will provide satisfactory coverage to the ethnic communities we wish to serve. We believe that this has two significant advantages.

10186 First, the approval of our application would not preclude the Commission from addressing other needs on the other three frequencies that are available as part of this or a subsequent proceeding.

10187 Second, 97.9 offers us the technical flexibility to meet evolving needs. For example, we can transmit at a higher power on this frequency if it is necessary to expand our coverage area to reach a growing ethnic population.

10188 The CBC has advised us in writing that they would be prepared to accommodate the interference that might result from such a power increase, subject, of course, to Industry Canada certification.

10189 Our engineering analysis determined that 97.9 would be the frequency most suited to our needs. However, if the Commission decides to grant that frequency to another applicant, we would be prepared to use a different frequency, provided that it gives us similar coverage in a comparatively cost effective manner.

10190 This would allow the Commission in its judgment to make the most efficient and effective use of the available frequencies.

10191 And finally, I would like to respond to a question that was put to an intervener yesterday by Commissioner Cordozo and that question was: why hasn't there been an ethnic licence for the Ottawa-Hull area up until now. And, although I can't speak for others here, but I would like to give you CHIN's perspective which I believe is quite unique.

10192 And to begin with, I would like to say that I am now CHIN radio's president, I have been for a couple of years and this certainly was with my father's blessing and my sisters Teresa and Danina share the view that the future for CHIN radio is to expand into new markets and to put to good use the developed 35 years of broadcasting experience that we have accumulated and put it to good use to establish new services.

10193 I think our experience in the Toronto area on some Toronto applications has shown us clearly that there are distinct advantages and synergies and opportunities that we can bring to new services and getting them established.

10194 And a word about my sisters. Teresa Lombardi is the vice president of Administration, has worked for the organization for over 30 years. She is also the producer of all of our special events in Toronto, such as the CHIN International picnic, our South Asian festival, our Chinese Festival, our Polish Day and countless others, so she is integrally involved in the ethnic communities and broadcasting on both levels.

10195 My sister Danina is vice president of the public relations and she is also a regular broadcaster on CHIN, hosting a regular radio program as well as hosting our television program on CITY-TV each week, so she has a very extensive knowledge of broadcasting, both behind the microphone and camera and in front of it.

10196 And, of course, me, I have practically done every job at that radio station at one time or another, from audio engineer to copyrighter. And now, I have worked my way up to the presidency.

10197 We see that the future and growth for CHIN radio is in the development of our brand of ethnic broadcasting that we want to take forward and in this market Ottawa is the Ottawa area that we want to grow in.

10198 And as the Commission knows and others here in the Ottawa-Hull area recognizes that there has been tremendous growth in the ethnic community here and we have seen that to our consultations with ethnic community leaders here in Ottawa as well as our research and that we see that the community has grown in leaps and bounds and now represents over one third of the population of Ottawa-Hull.

10199 And certainly other synergies that have brought us to this conclusion for an application of Ottawa-Hull is our relationship with the CHUM group and the technical synergies that they offer us. I know they are prepared to lease us fully equipped single use radio and studio facilities that are ready to go for us.

10200 And they also offer us technical and engineering support and also very interesting is an opportunity to produce ethnic television programs on the new RO, and that was another compelling reason why we wanted to apply for our licence here in Ottawa.

10201 And finally, Ottawa is close, it is friendly and it is very familiar to CHIN radio. In fact, we have been broadcasting into this region and area for many years to our Cable FM service via satellite as well as our television programs on CITY-TV and before that, on Global.

10202 We have had a long standing relationship with the Ottawa ethnic communities as was evident by our many interveners yesterday who spoke of our presence and the usefulness that we have provided to many of those communities.

10203 And so I just wanted to highlight those reasons why CHIN radio has decided and has looked at Ottawa as an opportunity for an ethnic application.

10204 So, in conclusion, over 3,000 individuals and organizations filed interventions in support of the licensing of an ethnic radio station here in the Nation's Capital. If our application is approved, we pledge to work with everyone in the many ethnic communities who have expressed an interest in the establishment of a local ethnic radio station.

10205 Our commitment is to provide an inclusive ethnic radio service that directly reflects and meets the needs of the many different ethnic communities here and in Ottawa-Hull.

10206 I wish you well in your deliberations and we look forward to your decision and we, of course, would be prepared to answer any questions you may have.

10207 THE CHAIRPERSON: After all these positive statements, do we take it that you have no objection to Mr. Kirk's request for amendment?

10208 MR. LOMBARDI: Madam Commissioner, that is correct, we have no objections.

10209 THE CHAIRPERSON: We have no question. We thank you very much for your participation in Phase IV.

10210 MR. LOMBARDI: Thank you.

10211 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam secretary, please. Madame la secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

10212 Mme POIRIER: Merci, madame la présidente. Nous allons maintenant entendre la réplique présentée par 9098-7280 Québec Inc., Radio Nord.

RÉPLIQUE / REPLY

10213 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour, monsieur Brosseau, monsieur Labarre et maître Côté. Procédez quand vous êtes prêts.

10214 M. BROSSEAU: Bonjour, madame la présidente et messieurs les conseillers et membres du Conseil. Mon nom est Pierre Brosseau. Je suis président et chef de la direction de Radio Nord Communications. A ma droite, maître Francine Côté, conseiller juridique, et à ma gauche, monsieur Pierre Labarre, ingénieur.

10215 Notre réplique à l'issue de ce long processus sera brève puisque nous n'avons reçu aucune intervention s'opposant spécifiquement à notre demande, si ce n'est celle de la Société Radio-Canada qui n'a cependant pas comparu. Au cours de l'examen de la première Phase, nous avons eu l'occasion de répondre à diverses questions relatives à la situation concurrentielle de la SRC, si la licence de radio classique nous était accordée.

10216 Nous n'avons pas l'intention de reprendre ici les arguments soulevés par la SRC dans son intervention écrite, à moins que le Conseil ne veuille éclaircir d'autres questions.

10217 Nous aimerions, par ailleurs, répondre positivement à l'intervention de l'ADISQ qui suggère que Radio Nord Communications fasse une contribution à Musicaction, suggestion que nous sommes heureux d'accepter. Si la licence demandée nous est accordée, nous verserons un montant additionnel de 2 000 $ par année à Musicaction, en plus des montants et engagements auxquels nous avons souscrit dans notre demande et auxquels nous avons acquiescé dans la première Phase, à savoir augmenter notre contenu canadien de 10 à 15 pour cent au cours de la troisième année de la licence, si telle est la volonté du Conseil.

10218 Le Conseil nous a demandé de vérifier si l'utilisation de la fréquence 97,9 MHz proposée dans notre demande est optimale, compte tenu que certaines populations au nord de Hull, entre autres, à St-Pierre-de-Wakefield, ne pourraient pas recevoir notre signal. Nous avons demandé à notre ingénieur qui nous accompagne aujourd'hui, monsieur Pierre Labarre, de procéder à certaines vérifications, notamment le déménagement du site d'antenne proposé à Camp Fortune sur la tour de la SRC.

10219 Il appert que le choix du site d'antenne de la Société à Camp Fortune est une solution qui permettrait de mieux couvrir le secteur nord de Hull, mais ne résoud pas complètement le problème, en plus d'être plus coûteuse. Ironiquement, la municipalité de Wakefield ne serait pas mieux couverte par ce changement, bien au contraire.

10220 Toutefois, la municipalité de St-Pierre-de-Wakefield, cachée dans une vallée qui cause des problèmes topographiques, serait, elle, incluse dans le nouveau contour, mais avec un signal légèrement inférieur à la valeur réglementaire de 500 uVm.

10221 Par ailleurs, l'établissement de notre site à Camp Fortune, plutôt que celui proposé à Place Vincent Massey, aurait aussi pour effet de réduire la puissance de notre signal à Hull et à Gatineau, et ce, de l'ordre de 15 à 20 décibels La solution pour servir la population de St-Pierre-de-Wakefield serait d'installer un réémetteur, si le Conseil l'estime nécessaire.

10222 L'utilisation de la fréquence 97,9, telle que proposée par notre consultant, monsieur Labarre, est donc optimale, compte tenu de notre marché cible et de la qualité du signal essentielle pour le succès d'une station de musique classique. De plus, elle est conforme à toutes les règles de Industrie Canada.

10223 Un deuxième choix serait la fréquence 95,7 allotie à Gatineau qui offre, cependant, des paramètres moindres pour couvrir adéquatement notre marché cible de Hull-Ottawa et qui aurait un léger impact négatif sur notre plan d'affaires. Les autres fréquences, quant à elles, ne sont pas des solutions viables pour notre demande.

10224 En terminant, nous désirons rappeler que notre demande répond aux critères du Conseil et aux objectifs du système de radiodiffusion canadien et ce, pour les raisons suivantes:

10225 Notre demande permet d'élargir la gamme de choix offerts aux francophones dans le marché de Hull-Ottawa mieux que toute autre demande de langue française proposée dans cette audition.

10226 Elle constitue une vitrine additionnelle pour les artistes et artisans de la musique classique qui ne comptent que deux stations de radio classique au Canada pour diffuser leur musique.

10227 Elle offre également une contrepartie de choix aux services commerciaux de radio qui appartiennent à Télémédia et Astral Média. Ces stations, rappelons-le, font l'objet d'une transaction qui sera présentée au Conseil pour approbation. La présence de Radio Nord Communications dans ce marché apporterait un meilleur équilibre au niveau de la propriété et de la programmation par la diversité qu'une station de formule spécialisée comme Radio Classique garantit.

10228 De plus, Radio Nord Communications est un requérant qualifié pour desservir le marché radiophonique de Hull-Ottawa par son expertise en radio et sa connaissance du marché où elle exploite déjà des stations de télévision.

10229 L'obtention de cette licence est une étape importante pour la croissance de notre entreprise qui désire jouer un rôle accru dans le système de radiodiffusion et cela, au moment même où la convergence incite d'autres joueurs, de petite et moyenne taille, à se départir de leurs entreprises au profit d'entreprises mieux consolidées.

10230 Quant à la question des amendements apportés à la demande de monsieur Kirk au plan de la formule de programmation et au plan technique, nous avons des commentaires à faire uniquement quant au changement de fréquence.

10231 Monsieur Kirk désire utiliser la même fréquence que Radio Nord Communications, intention qu'il a fait connaître le 16 mai dernier. Nous pensons que, compte tenu de l'heure tardive des amendements requis par monsieur Kirk, si le Conseil en venait à la conclusion que monsieur Kirk et Radio Nord Communications méritent respectivement une licence, l'arbitrage devrait accorder la priorité à Radio Nord Communications puisque la fréquence 97,9 est notre premier choix. Monsieur Kirk pourrait alors être invité à utiliser une autre fréquence, sous réserve d'obtenir la certification technique d'Industrie Canada.

10232 Madame la président, mesdames et messieurs les conseillers, nous sommes convaincus que l'approbation de notre demande favorise l'intérêt public et nous remercions le Conseil de l'attention portée à notre demande ainsi que tous ceux qui ont participé à son examen.

10233 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, monsieur Brosseau. Est-ce que vous avez des commentaires à faire au sujet de la demande de modification en ce qui concerne le format de la demande de monsieur Kirk?

10234 M. BROSSEAU: Non, madame la présidente.

10235 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci. Je crois que madame Noël a une question.

10236 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: En fait, je pense qu'on a répondu parce qu'au moment de la première Phase, il y avait une série de questions. J'ai la transcription des notes ici, il y a une série de questions auxquelles on n'avait pas répondu. S'il y avait un autre choix de fréquence, si je comprends bien, votre seul autre choix serait 95,7?

10237 M. BROSSEAU: C'est juste.

10238 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Il n'y aurait pas d'autres fréquences qui pourraient desservir adéquatement le marché que vous voulez couvrir?

10239 M. BROSSEAU: C'est ma compréhension. Monsieur Labarre pourrait peut-être nous donner plus de spécifications.

10240 M. LABARRE: Je ne pense pas qu'on veuille à cette heure si tardive élaborer tous les détails, mais pour ce qui est de la fréquence de 89.9, on se doit d'utiliser l'antenne de Global pour rencontrer les normes et si on le fait, il y a un minimum de l'antenne de Global en direction de Hull et de Gatineau, ce qui n'est pas la meilleure chose pour quelqu'un dont c'est le marché primaire.

10241 Pour ce qui est de 259, 99,7, on sait que celle-là n'est pas attrayante et pour --

10242 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Est-ce que vous pourriez élaborer là-dessus? C'est là où je vous ai amené, 99,7. C'est celle qu'avait d'abord demandée monsieur Kirk avant son changement.

10243 M. LABARRE: C'est exact. Celle-là implique -- l'occupation est un canal qui se trouve en troisième adjacence avec deux canaux déjà à Ottawa-Hull. Le Ministère est en train de procéder à des essais et je fais partie du groupe de travail de cela. Et pour déterminer la sélectivité -- l'amélioration de la sélectivité des récepteurs à pouvoir dans un champs élevé de troisième adjacence, soutirer le canal désiré et ne pas être brouillé par la troisième adjacence.

10244 Ces résultats ne sont pas encore complétés et les règles n'ont pas été refaites.

10245 Le deuxième point qui est embêtant dans le cas d'Ottawa, c'est que les deux stations ne sont pas au même endroit. Or, d'emblée, probablement qu'une troisième adjacence va être acceptée ou acceptable quand les sites sont au même endroit et dans le cas d'Ottawa, on ne peut pas être au même endroit à deux places. Alors, ça rend le cas difficile et ça ne me surprend pas qu'il y ait eu un changement.

10246 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Je vous remercie, monsieur Labarre.

10247 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, monsieur Brosseau et vos collègues. Madame la secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

10248 Mme POIRIER: Merci, madame la présidente. We will finally hear the reply by Standard Radio Incorporated.

RÉPLIQUE / REPLY

10249 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Slaight, madame Lafontaine et monsieur Stafford.

10250 MR. SLAIGHT: Good morning, madam Chair and members of the Commission. I am Gary Slaight, president and CEO of Standard Radio.

10251 On my right is Eric Stafford, the General Manager of "The Bear" here in Ottawa. On my left is Monique Lafontaine, our regulatory counsel from McCarthy Tetrault.

10252 We will start by commenting on Mr. Kirk's letter amending his application so as to be a Specialty station. We are not here to object to his amendment because it simply recognizes that Smooth Jazz is in category 34. We find it incredible, however, that it took Mr. Kirk three hearings over the last year to understand what we thought the Commission had made perfectly clear in Public Notice 2000-14.

10253 There are three points that were raised against our application to which we wish to reply. The first is the suggestion by Newcap at paragraph 4637 of the transcript that the smooth jazz format only gets an average share of 2.5 in the United States, and that this shows the smooth jazz format will not be viable in Ottawa. The second is the suggestion by Mr. Kirk that the ratings of the Hamilton station show that our ratings and revenue projections are too high in Ottawa. The third is his suggestion that there are not enough Canadian jazz recording to warrant at 35 per cent level.

10254 Let's start with the U.S. situation. The U.S Arbitron ratings for smooth jazz stations, along with other stations in different formats, are published regularly in Radio & Records Magazine. We have appended the numbers for smooth jazz stations in the top 15 markets in the United States to the notes for our oral presentation, and you will see that these numbers are all higher than 2.5. In fact, the average share is 4.

10255 We have also attached some recent statistics prepared by Kevin Cassidy of Broadcast Architecture, a consulting firm that specializes in the smooth jazz format in the United States. As you will see from the statistics, there are nearly 100 stations across the U.S. using the smooth jazz format and this is growing. Share trends for smooth jazz have grown tremendously in the last few years, at a time when other formats are in decline.

10256 The U.S. numbers are also interesting because they substantially underestimate the share that this format can reach in Canada. The reason for this is simple.

10257 A typical U.S. market has far more radio stations per capita than is the case in Canada. As you can see from the statistics and as we note in our supplementary brief, U.S. markets often have 30 to 40 radio stations competing in a market, smooth jazz is typically ranked in the top 10 in ratings and in the top 5 in revenue.

10258 Ottawa does not have 30 or 40 commecial radio stations. It has less than 10 stations on the English side. So a share in the United States of 4 per cent of the radio audience could easily translate to a 5 or 6 share up in Canada, simply because there are fewer stations up here to divide up the audience. Based on the Ipsos Reid research filed with our application, we projet a 5.2 share of the 12+ audience for the stations in the market. With this share, our revenue projections are easily attainable. So, that's our first point.

10259 The second relates to the Hamilton experience, and Mr. Kirk's assertion that our research on demand was too optimistic.

10260 I want to start by noting that this criticism comes from an applicant that did absolutely no demand study in Ottawa. He has simply assumed that Ottawa is the same as Hamilton, and therefore the ratings would be at the same low level as they are for his station in Hamilton.

10261 We recognize that Mr. Kirk's new station in Hamilton has had disappointing BBM ratings. But we do not think that this translates into problems in Ottawa. There are three reasons:

10262 First, the lesson from the U.S. is that this format is not a cookie-cutter approach. To be successful, it has to be custom-designed for each market. That was a point made by Mr. Cassidy when he appeared with us at the Vancouver hearings. We do not think that Mr. Kirk did the homework necessary to understand the format and apply it correctly. The letter that Mr. Kirk filed on Monday morning, whether you accept his amendment or not, confirms that he has been confused about the format from the start. We have never been confused. However, Mr. Kirk's evident confusion with the format may have contributed to his low numbers in Hamilton.

10263 Second, the launch of any new station requires a major infusion of marketing money to bring the new frequency to people's attention. We have purposely included substantial marketing dollars in our own budget for Ottawa. But we saw little evidence that Mr. Kirk spent any real marketing money in Hamilton.

10264 Third, and finally, it is important to note that Ottawa is much different from Hamilton. Hamilton is a blue-collar market, compared with Ottawa which has a more educated, upscale demographic.

10265 Let me explain why smooth jazz will do particularly well here in Ottawa.

10266 First, we have done a demand study, and we did it the right way, by playing excerpts from the proposed music for 700 respondents in Ottawa and getting their reaction not to the name of the format but to the actual music. The response was huge for both smooth and traditional jazz. The research also showed that this is a format that appeals to a more educated professional upscale audience, an audience that is hard for advertisers to reach.

10267 This is also evident from the level of record sales. We have appended a report on album sales in record stores across Canada since the beginning of the year. Ottawa is the fourth largest market in Canada in terms of sales of jazz albums. Ottawa accounts for 5.39 per cent of overall record sales in Canada but 7.25 per cent of sales of jazz albums.

10268 Hamilton, by contrast, accounts for 2.45 per cent of overall record sales but only 1.54 per cent of sales of jazz albums. In other words, based on record sales, Ottawa has far more interest in jazz than Hamilton in proportion to its population.

10269 Third, we know that this is the right format because this music is simply not being played on local radio and yet it sells well. Very little Canadian jazz is heard on local radio stations, and none of the records on the smooth jazz charts are getting regular airplay. By contrast, half of the records played on KOOL-FM last week were form the Urban/Dance charts. So, we think that in terms of diversity, the smooth jazz format is by far the best choice.

10270 Fourth, this is a format that has support from the local community, in terms of artists, festivals, community groups and events. The jazz scene here is vibrant, and that is why Ottawa is particularly appropriate for and in need of a smooth jazz station.

10271 Finally, we want to reply to Mr. Kirk's suggestion that there are not enough Canadian records in the format to justify a 35 per cent Canadian content level. We disagree. But a key factor in this is the fact that unlike Mr. Kirk we intend to play traditional jazz as well as smooth jazz. Our studies show that there is demand for this as well in the Ottawa market and a station that covers the whole jazz area will be very successful. There is a place for Oscar Peterson on our radio station.

10272 At 35 per cent for Category 3 music, instead of ten per cent our application exceeds the regulatory Canadian content minimum by a full 25 per cent, more than any other applicant before you.

10273 So, those are the points I wanted to make in reply to the question of the viability of a smooth jazz station in Ottawa.

10274 Before concluding, I want to thank each of the interveners that wrote letters or appeared to support our application. I want to single out two of them for comment in reply.

10275 The first is Dr. Bryan Gillingham, Director of the School for Studies in Art & Culture at Carleton University, who you heard from last evening. I want to confirm that should we be licensed, and should the Commission disallow one or more of our CTD initiatives, we will earmark $75,000 of that money to go to Carleton University to implement Dr. Gillingham's proposal.

10276 The second intervention to which I want to refer to is that of the National Arts Centre. Although the NAC was unable to appear, I want to quote briefly from its letter of intervention:

10277 The NAC notes -- that the level of support and the extent of Standard's involvement in the "Jazz at the Fourth Stage" initiative -- at $100,000 a year for seven years -- is unmatched in this proceeding. This jazz music CTD initiative, developed by Standard and the NSC, will be a wonderful addition to the National Capital Region's cultural landscape. Both of its components, that is the annual jazz concert series (12 jazz concerts per years), and the master class program, will provide significant support to new, emerging and existing Canadian jazz artists, as well as to our Canadian jazz artists of the future.

10278 We very much look forward to working with Standard on the "Jazz at the Fourth Stage" initiative should the Commission approve its proposal for a new smooth jazz radio station for Ottawa-Hull."

10279 We were delighted to be able to work with the NAC to help develop this exciting initiative. We look forward to working with their team if we are privileged to get the licence.

10280 Thank you, madam Chair and members of the Commission. We would like to thank the Commission and its staff for conducting a full and fair hearing. We wish you well in your deliberations and we wish everyone a safe trip home.

10281 That concludes our replies.

10282 THE CHAIRPERSON: No wish for my garden?

10283 Mr. SLAIGHT: I hope you don't have to go for the plastic flowers and especially I hope you don't have to go to plastic squirrels.

10284 THE CHAIRPERSON: They would be welcome if they were plastic. You do not know what Ottawa has to suffer with the squirrels. I do not think we have any questions. We thank you, Mr. Slaight.

10285 We will take a ten minute break and come back with a decision on Mr. Kirk's proposal for amendment and to conclude the hearing. So, in ten minutes we will back.

10286 Nous serons de retour dans dix minutes.

--- Upon recessing at 1110 / Suspension à 1110

--- Upon resuming at 1138 / Reprise à 1138

10287 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. In light of the fact that, one, the request by the applicant Doug Kirk to amend his application does not constitute a change to the substance of his application, but rather a more accurate reflexion of it, from a regulatory perspective and two, that no competing applicant has expressed an objection to the request, the panel has decided to accept the amendment as proposed.

10288 Puisque, premièrement, la requête du requérant Douglas Kirk en vue de modifier sa demande ne constitue pas un changement de fond au projet proposé, mais plutôt une représentation adéquate des exigences réglementaires et, deuxièmement, qu'aucune requérante n'a exprimé d'objection à cette requête, le Comité d'audition a décidé d'accepter la modification telle que proposée.

10289 Madame la secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

10290 Mme POIRIER: Merci, madame la présidente. J'aimerais seulement mentionner que cette audience contient également cinq demandes non comparantes, et que bien que celles-ci ne fassent pas l'objet d'une présentation orale, les demandes n'en font pas moins partie de l'audience et, à ce titre, elles seront étudiées par le Conseil et une décision sera rendue plus tard.

10291 I would just like to point out that this hearing also includes five non appearing applications and that even though there is no oral presentation for these applications, they are nevertheless part of this public hearing and, as such, they will be considered by the Commission and a decision will be rendered at a later date. Thank you, madam Chair.

10292 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, madame la secrétaire. Et voilà la fin de notre audience.

10293 Mes collègues se joignent à moi pour remercier les requérantes et tous les intervenants pour leur collaboration et leur apport précieux à notre processus public.

10294 Nous rappelons aussi à ceux et celles qui ont déposé une intervention écrite que cette intervention fait partie du dossier public.

10295 Je remercie mes collègues de m'avoir bien épaulée au cours de l'audience. Je remercie aussi le personnel, les interprètes et les sténographes de qui nous nous sommes attendu à beaucoup, surtout hier, et nous avons, évidemment, maintenant du pain sur la planche.

10296 This signals the end of our hearing. My colleagues and I thank the applicants and the interveners for their cooperation and their important participation in our public proceeding.

10297 We also remind all those who filed a written intervention that their intervention forms part of the public record.

10298 I thank my colleagues for their help and support throughout the hearing. Our thanks also go to the personnel, to the interpreters and to the Court stenographers of whom we expected a lot, yesterday especially. And we evidently have lots of work to do.

10299 Again, I thank everyone and wish you a safe trip home.

10300 Alors, nous vous remercions et un bon retour à la maison.

--- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 1142 / L'audience est levée à 1142