--- Upon resuming on Monday, April 23, 2001 at 0830 / L'audience reprend
le lundi 23 avril 2001 à 0830
7116 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back to our
proceeding where we are hearing the licence renewal applications for CTV and
Global.
7117 We have now completed the first phase of our proceeding where we heard
from the CTV and Global and their group licence renewals and the individual
stations across the country.
7118 We are now moving to the next phase of our proceeding where we will hear
from the various supporting, opposing and commenting intervenors.
7119 I might say at the outset that there are quite a few intervenors that we
will be hearing from over the next three days. We will have quite a full
agenda.
7120 We will be taking quite a few interventions by audio teleconference
perhaps later this morning and definitely through the afternoon today.
7121 I just want to indicate that in order to hear all of the
interventions -- particularly with some of the supporting ones -- we
may not be asking a lot of detailed questions of the intervenor. That's not to
indicate that we don't value the intervention. We simply want to make sure that
everybody has an opportunity to be heard and we do value all of the
interventions -- the written ones, the appearing ones and the ones by
teleconference.
7122 So with that, Mr. Secretary, shall we turn to our first intervenor?
7123 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7124 Our first intervenor this morning is Cochran Entertainment Incorporated
and we have Mr. Andrew Cochran.
7125 Good morning, sir.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
7126 MR. COCHRAN: Good morning. Thank you.
7127 Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners.
7128 My name is Andrew Cochran of Cochran Entertainment based in Halifax. We
are a diversified, multi-platform content company, otherwise known to you as an
independent producer.
7129 Thank you for inviting me to appear before you and thanks especially for
providing such a convenient spot here in the lead-off position in today's order.
I can only imagine that by commencing the day with someone from Halifax, you are
recognizing that every important day in Canada begins from the East, and
important days these are dividing as you must the nation's media landscape for
the next seven years.
7130 Especially when you consider seven years ago few had heard of the
Internet. The worldwide web was in its infancy with only a handful of test and
trial home pages. Seven years from now, I venture to say the Internet and web
will be so ubiquitous that we will look back and be grandly amused by all the
fuss that it created.
7131 And television, specifically CTV television, what will it look like some
seven years from now? Will have it been swept into some sea of digital waves all
converging to overtake some distant shoal? Well, in the Maritime we know a thing
or two about boats and we know that one of the truest boats afloat is a dory. As
you know, when you are in a dory you are always row pushing fearlessly ahead,
but your eyes are always fixed on where you have been. So that's where I propose
to spend the bulk of my time before you this morning -- with my experience
to date with CTV and what it suggests to me about their future.
7132 I will even save you the suspense with a peak of my last page. I believe
in CTV, its people and what they are doing. I think they are deserving of your
support in the decision you will render from this hearing. But for now come on
back in the dory and I will tell you way.
7133 Thirty-one years ago almost to this month, a very wise person took a
chance and hired a restless teenager to join the CJCH newsroom in Halifax as a
reporter. Within the year, CHUM consolidated CJCH radio and TV and I had a
career in television. I have loved it ever since.
7134 After some years at the naissant ATV, together with my time at
Dalhousie, I got a job with a network in Toronto, first field producing with W-5
and then later producing Canada AM. I felt I was in the big leagues, and in many
ways I was. It was the middle 70s. The network was expanding with new Canadian
programs and better execution of its existing programs and there was a heady
spirit about the place. We didn't have nearly as much programming money as the
CBC and there was relentless competition from the U.S. networks on cable.
7135 So we had to meet the competition by outthinking them with an endless
supply of original ideas, raw enthusiasm and even some stunts to win the
audiences' attention and loyalty, and we did. All that seemed to me to wean with
the end of the 70s and to my view disappeared at CTGV through the 80s and much
of the 90s. I thought it possibly would never return.
7136 But today, starting with the management team, I see that esprit de corps
has come back. Reemerged in the culture of CTV is a common belief in the idea
that many things are possible and we will never really know until we try. I have
to say I find that as infectious today as I did then.
7137 Today my view is from the outside as a supplier. We deal with the
programming people at CTV on a regular basis for a collection of projects we
have in various stages of development with the network. In a consistent pattern,
we find an uncommon commitment to making each program fully, richer, with more
depth of experience, and there is always some considered constructive thinking
about how to have the program reach its greatest potential, notwithstanding that
it may even take longer and even increase the cost of the network.
7138 As a private business person who cares deeply about the product of our
work, this is a very refreshing approach. I know it commends our best efforts
and know it likewise to commend the best from others.
7139 I'm sure that this practice can only yield better and better Canadian
programs each responding to CTV's mantra that they are seeking the best show
period, not matter what the genre or Canadian postal code of origin.
7140 I must say I find this universal attitude towards excellence
particularly positive, coming as I do from what is so commonly called a region.
You see, I don't think of myself as a regional producer, but rather as a program
producer that by happy circumstance lives outside Toronto.
7141 We think of our programming as programming for Canadian networks and for
the world market.
7142 It is though important to point out that CTV has made all of this the
more possible by having a strong network programming office in Halifax. Their
two-person team on the ground at home greatly eases the flow of progress and
meaningful collaboration. This is largely, I suppose, because CTV operates this
office not as some kind of caseworker in an interland outpost, but instead as a
real network programming office, plugged in, respected and able to make things
move.
7143 Now, I mentioned our work in the world market. As well as our sales and
programs in international territories, we have been closely following the
evolution of the world market involving new media for television.
7144 I know that much of this is already being contemplated in the
Commission's consideration of digital channels and during your deliberations on
the BCE transaction. My purpose today is simply to underscore my belief that
there is a particularly acute role here for CTV to play.
7145 Canadians can be leaders in this sector and instead right now we seem to
be barely keeping pace.
7146 Two weeks ago, we returned from the NET TV market in France, which I
know is familiar to most of you as one of the regular destinations on the
international circuit for buying, selling and co-producing programs. Now, there
is a database of those attending and it reveals some interesting numbers.
7147 In listing their areas of activity, 531 companies attending included new
media, 137 listed themselves as buyers. The number of buyers from Canada, 3. In
enhanced television, the number of active companies was 182, buyers 46, Canadian
buyers, 2: CTV and the Open Learning Agency for British Columbia. There
were only two Canadian productions companies, by the way, one from Quebec and
ourselves.
7148 Admittedly now, this survey is neither exhaustive nor intended for
anything other than as a way for like-minded companies to contact each other at
the market, but still to me it feels representative of the current intersecting
points between traditional television and new media and there are precious few
in Canada today.
7149 For our skills, competitiveness and export ability to grow, I believe we
need audience gathering for-profit aggregators to be the bridge between Canadian
infrastructure and Canadian content. Lest you think otherwise, our thinking in
this respect is not to suggest new media for new media's sake, but rather as a
way to facilitate the kind of increased production profitability that comes from
horizontal integration, horizontal integration of content. In essence, mining
from the same raw collection of material and re-purposing it to best suit its
platform of delivery.
7150 Viewers benefit from content more closely tailored to the preferred form
of access. Networks benefit from richer content offerings with which to build
audiences, and producers benefit from amortizing gathering costs over a broader
range of revenue.
7151 It is this kind of orderly use of bandwidth that CTV is perfectly poised
to realize over the course of its new licence. I know they can't fill this void
by themselves, and nor should we expect them to, but with initiatives like their
already announced ground-breaker series plus their sheer mass, appetite for even
programming and new corporate pedigree, I look forward to CTV providing some
much needed acceleration in multi-platform production.
7152 I would be remiss not to mention the important efforts that ATV
undertakes in the Maritime community. I and others, in our written
interventions, have already highlighted ATV's very significant contribution to
making possible the annual IWK Hospital Telethon and the Christmas Daddy's
telecast, two crucially important fundraising drives in the Maritimes and how
these efforts are widely appreciated in the community.
7153 I also think "Live at Five" and the "ATV Evening News" have a
significant role in deepening our sense of what is around us in the Maritime
community. For example, in our field of filmed entertainment, ATV has always
been there to cover the latest made in the Maritimes production, whether it's
destined for airing on ATV or a competitor.
7154 Many of you know that a year ago we launched a 65-foot sea-worthy
tugboat, complete with a shiny red ball-cap and five-foot smile, built to be an
ocean-going replica of our children's character "Theodore Tugboat". Even though
it's a long-running CBC series, ATV covered the story at length and continues to
cover the story port by port around the Maritimes throughout the summer.
7155 One of those times I asked a reporter whether this had been
controversial in the newsroom and he said it had been discussed but on balance
the feeling was that it was a great local story and that's what counted more
than anything else. Self-interest aside, I find that to be a refreshingly
grown-up attitude.
7156 Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, I have already told you what is on my last
page, but allow me to repeat it for emphasis. I believe in CTV, its people and
what they are doing and I think they are deserving of your support in the
decision you will render from this hearing.
7157 Thank you.
7158 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Cochran.
7159 You talked about a new sense of -- I forget the exact words you used,
but I think you referred to a new sense of excellence or a new spirit that has
been rekindled from what used to be there some time ago.
7160 To what do you credit that?
7161 MR. COCHRAN: I am not close enough to the internal culture of CTV to be
able to examine too much of its derivatives, I guess. I think CTC has put
together a really terrific management team right now. I think they are a great
collection of people, talented people that care about what they do. They get
along well together and have kind of a "storm the barricades" attitude. I think
that that can only ripple through the operation.
7162 From my outside view looking in, it seems to have.
7163 THE CHAIRPERSON: If you are rowing the dory and Mr. Fecan is sitting at
the back telling you which way to steer or which we to row, you would be hoping
that he is hollering out the directions for another seven years.
7164 MR. COCHRAN: I would say that I think the best thing that could happen
would be to keep the present management team, the whole length and breadth of
them, in place as long as possible.
7165 THE CHAIRPERSON: Given the benefits that came from the CTV-CHUM
transaction, which presumably helped kindle some of the activity that has been
going on in the last couple of years and will for the next few, how much of what
has gone on would you credit to the benefits package as opposed to this new
sense of excellence?
7166 What is your confidence that that is going to continue on beyond the
period of the benefits that are there?
7167 MR. COCHRAN: This is a delicate subject, because I don't want the
Commission to think that we are anything but appreciative of your efforts in
brokering benefits packages when decisions take place.
7168 I do have a bias that often times prescribed programming or benefits
derived initiatives can sometimes have the effect of almost ghettoizing the
resulting programs. In other words, it is a program done for the sake of
satisfying something rather than a program that is there to serve audiences, to
gather audiences, to make a profitable proposition for the network.
7169 It is the latter that we feel more excited about participating in. I
think it is always better to be in a situation of trying to say our program was
chosen as part of the network stream because it was the best program that was
being advanced at the time, not because it was some kind of a regional incentive
package.
7170 As I say, I would be the last to try and look a gift horse in the mouth.
Please don't feel you need to stop doing the kinds of benefit packages that you
do.
7171 I think that this kind of emphasis on excellence that we are seeing
right now from TV does seem to be genuine, does seem to be driven by a
programming philosophy that says we want to find the best programs, whether they
are from Ecum Secum or Vancouver or Toronto, or wherever.
7172 I find it frankly tremendously energizing to be on that kind of level
playing field, feeling that the resulting go-ahead is really meaningful.
7173 THE CHAIRPERSON: In your written presentation and again this morning you
made note of the fact that you don't consider yourself a regional producer; that
you are an independent producer, and you don't seem to support the notion of
quotas. You particularly address that in your written submission.
7174 I took it that was more directed at the regional aspect of it.
7175 What is your view of the sense of quotas for independent production as
opposed to in-house?
7176 MR. COCHRAN: I like to think that independent production makes good
business sense for any or most of the networks involved. In other words, the
ability to be able to draw on a much wider pool of ideas and financing ability
than one can ever marshall in-house I would hope is a compelling enough model to
stand any move towards vertical integration of production in-house.
7177 I hasten to add that, as an independent producer, I am a professional
optimist and that sometimes that kind of optimism is important to have that view
prevail, I guess.
7178 I would, on balance, hope that there is sufficient business sense in
having that diversity of programs there as opposed to returning to having a lot
of in-house overhead.
7179 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you think the Commission should share your optimism
from a regulatory point of view going forward? I am speaking about both CTV and
Global in terms of the relative amount of independent production.
7180 MR. COCHRAN: I think the Commission has done a good job in the past in
the way it has handled these issues. I would suggest that in taking the wider
view that the Commission needs to, you should continue your course in the dory
and keep seeing where you have come from and stay the course.
7181 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Cochran. We appreciate your
coming here today.
7182 Mr. Secretary, please.
7183 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7184 I would now like to call upon the Alberta Motion Pictures Industry
Association to come and present its intervention.
7185 Ms Connie Edwards...?
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
7186 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Ms Edwards.
7187 MS EDWARDS: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners. My name is
Connie Edwards, and I am here today as President of the Alberta Motion Picture
Industry Association to present comments on behalf of the Board of
Directors.
7188 AMPIA is here today to offer support in the licence renewals of both
Global and the CTV stations specifically in Alberta. We would like to make sure
that the Commission is aware that we value our very positive relationships with
our friends at CTV: Trina McQueen, Louise Clark, Bob Culbert, Fred Filthaut,
Allan Brooks and Pat McDougall have always been accessible to us for meetings or
phone calls and have been very supportive of our industry.
7189 While the Global stations are new to Alberta, we have had an ongoing
very positive relationship with Loren Mawhinney over the years and look forward
to working closely with Jim Resnick and Barbara Peterson in Alberta.
7190 While AMPIA does support the renewal of these licensees, you will no
doubt have noticed from our written intervention that we do have some
concerns.
7191 Also, to be very clear, it is our understanding that any commitments
made by these applicants will be incremental to any benefits that were offered
as part of the large transactions that occurred last year.
7192 For 27 years AMPIA has represented independent producers and members
involved in all aspects of the film and television industry in Alberta. The
mandate of the association is to ensure the growth and development of the
indigenous industry at the producer, technical, talent and craft levels.
7193 Central to this mandate is maintaining an environment in which Alberta
producers, writers and directors can initiate, develop and produce films and
programs over which they have creative and financial control.
7194 AMPIA would like to clarify how we arrived at some of the
recommendations that we made in our written interventions. We hope to illustrate
for the Commission why we think that these are important.
7195 AMPIA strongly recommended that all commitments that the CRTC implement
as a result of this licence review, including regional programming commitments,
be made conditions of licence for these licensees.
7196 AMPIA is concerned about the execution of commitments for the previous
licence term in relation to development and investment in the Alberta production
community. As Global stated in their deficiencies letter, for example, CICT
committed to invest an average of $1.67 million annually, for a total of $11.7
million over the licence term.
7197 Global states that CICT has managed, on average, to comply with its
commitment toward program development, at least until the year 1999-2000, based
on the data that was provided.
7198 However, Global then states that CICT, given the presence of the A
Channel in the market, has been precluded from fulfilling its commitment to
invest $1.67 million per year in the under-represented categories.
7199 On page 34 of Global's deficiency report a chart indicates that WIC only
spent $3.4 million of the $11.7 million. The Alberta community in essence
lost over $7 million.
7200 Global also notes that development moneys were administered by WIC
Entertainment Group, a non-regulated entity within the WIC group of companies.
We believe that development funds are commitments made by licensees in their
respective markets and should be spent in those markets.
7201 To be fair, it is important to note that these commitments were
administered by WIC, not Global, for the majority of this licence term.
7202 AMPIA expressed its concern that in Schedule 10 of the CFRN application,
it indicates that a CRTC licensing decision relating to A Channel has impacted
on CTV's ability to sustain their promise of performance in relation to the CFRN
program fund.
7203 Notwithstanding this, we understand that CFRN will continue to meet
their commitments until the end of the licence term.
7204 This is all just to illustrate that we are concerned that some
broadcasters may not consider expectations or commitments made at licence
renewals to be binding on their performance during a licence term if these
benefits are not specifically a condition of licence.
7205 AMPIA recommended that each licensee contribute 10 per cent of its IBITA
each year to an independent third party arm's length provincial fund. This was
to be used for development and financing of Canadian programming by independent
producers in that licensee's province. We further recommended that any
recoupments received be respent by that fund in the same manner.
7206 Allow me to explain how we arrived at that recommendation. The CFCN
production fund expires in August of this year and it provided $1.5 million
annually over five years. Additionally, in August of 2002 CFRN-TV's program fund
will end its one million dollars per year commitment.
7207 Global station CICT committed $1.67 million over seven years. Therefore,
in Alberta in the next year we will be witnessing the loss of over $5 million
per year.
7208 CTV has submitted they will provide $50,000 in development per station
for a total of $100,000 per year while Global has pledged $110,000 in
development per station for a total of $220,000 per year. There are no
commitments in relation to licences or other production investment.
7209 We have heard during these hearings that both Global and CTV are
committed to high quality Canadian programming. AMPIA shares that commitment and
that vision. In the past we have stood before this Commission and talked about
how critical development and production investments are to our province.
7210 The CFCN fund alone provided up to 20 per cent of production costs to
successful applicants through equity investments. This will be a large gap to
fill in order to continue to produce high quality programs. Frankly, it will
have a negative impact on our industry.
7211 Both broadcasters have given some indication in their submissions that
they expect to earn substantial revenue from Alberta stations. It therefore
seemed only reasonable to ask that all broadcasters should make a meaningful
contribution to the production community from where they are generating those
revenues.
7212 AMPIA recommended that to ensure diversity and to foster regional
reflection that a minimum of three hours of the eight hours of priority
programming per week come from the west. AMPIA believes that unless at least
each broadcaster takes care to preserve the diverse voices from across this
country through firm commitments to develop and licence original works from a
variety of writers, producers and directors, we will not have true creative
representation of Canadians speaking to Canadians.
7213 AMPIA is in support of sound business practices such as expansion,
convergence and mergers. AMPIA only wishes to ensure that the air waves that
belong to the Canadian public truly mirror and reflect Canadians from every
region of this vast country. This reflection should come in part from stories
told by culturally and geographically independent voices.
7214 Just, for example, last week a woman in Alberta told me her story about
her husband who is a peacekeeper working in Bosnia and how she suffers every
time that his e-mail is late or the phone call doesn't come on time. She wants
to tell the story of the ones left behind when their loved ones go to
war-ravaged countries, the loneliness, the fear.
7215 This is the kind of story that would capture the attention of many
Canadians. Would this story find a voice if it was no more than a news clip, if
there is nothing to ensure that it would be heard? A commitment to three hours
out of eight of priority programming from the western region would give it that
opportunity.
7216 The concept of a detailed annual report by the licensees as proposed by
the Commission at these hearings is a great idea. AMPIA is concerned that the
report by itself will not ensure that there is a reasonable balance of regional
programming.
7217 The licensees have asked the Commission to trust them in their efforts
and have offered to be called back if the Commission is unhappy with their
performance. We would suggest that it would be better to impose the regional
three out of eight as a condition of licence. The licensees could apply for
relief from the Commission if there is a good reason as to why they could not
fulfil this condition. This places the onus on the broadcaster rather than on
the Commission.
7218 AMPIA recommended that there be a cap of 25 per cent for priority
programming devoted to entertainment magazine shows to ensure that they don't
overwhelm other priority genres in prime time. We strongly support the inclusion
of entertainment magazine programming as an eligible genre for priority
programming and commend the Commission for doing so. These programs can help
bring Canadian audiences to Canadian priority programs and help to create a star
system in this country.
7219 AMPIA also recommended that the Commission set a minimum benchmark for
distinctively Canadian drama. We further recommended that this minimum level be
set at 40 per cent of priority programming.
7220 While magazine programs and documentaries are important to viewers,
Canadians should also be engaged by meaningful, thoughtful, provocative trim
dramatic programming from all regions of this country. We fear that the
distinctively Canadian drama may be an endangered species given the high cost
and high risk. Given the economics, we could see a vast majority of Canadian
drama on conventional broadcasters being the six out of ten industrial drama
series creatively driven from the U.S. and in no way reflecting Canada to
Canadians. Putting in this condition of licence will ensure that Canadians view
themselves.
7221 We are also concerned that without expenditure requirements, licensees
could produce eight hours of inexpensive priority programming and still fall
within the Commission's requirements. For example, a stand-up comedy show, a
number of lifestyle shows.
7222 In their renewal applications, the licensees have filed their projected
expenditures on priority programming and AMPIA recommended that the Commission
make these projections a condition of licence, with a caveat that the number
would be adjusted in relation to actual total revenues as the years
progress.
7223 Without some kind of minimum spending requirement we are not assured
that the broadcasters will attempt to meet their spending requirements.
7224 AMPIA recommended that the Commission continue to ensure through its
licensing divisions that a diversity of voices from across this country continue
to be heard. We recommended that the Commission continue to be heard. We
recommended that the Commission require licensees to commit to 95 per cent of
priority programming being produced by independent producers as per the
Commission's definition.
7225 We then further recommended that the Commission require licensees to
commit to a specific portion of that 95 per cent that will be spent with
independent producers through a not related or affiliated in any way with CTV or
Global who own the copyright to their programming and who control its
distribution.
7226 We also recommended that a minimum of 50 per cent of priority
programming be produced with SMEs, small and medium size businesses, as defined
by Telefilm Canada who hold the copyright to programming and control its
distribution.
7227 As broadcasters become producers and have interests in distribution and
production companies, we continue to urge the Commission to establish clear
public policies that avoid potential self-dealing practices for all
broadcasters. More than ever we believe that the CRTC has a vital and crucial
role to play as the guardian of the independent story-tellers across this
country.
7228 We would like to thank the Commission very much for the opportunity to
present our thoughts. I would like to just mention that the Saskatchewan Motion
Picture Producers Association has formally offered support for our position.
7229 AMPIA believes that we need to have firm and tangible commitments to
preserve the independent production community. We believe that it is vital that
the Commission make all commitments a COL.
7230 Thank you and I would be happy to answer any of your questions.
7231 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Edwards. For that we will turn to
Commissioner Cardozo.
7232 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks very much, Ms
Edwards, for coming and presenting these views.
7233 We have had the chance to read over your written submissions. They are
very helpful in us understanding clearly what your thoughts are. There are a
number of issues you have raised. What I will do is just go through a few of
them where I just want some more information, but the ones I don't touch we do
hear you well.
7234 Do you have the original that you sent? If I can just relate to a few
things.
7235 MS EDWARDS: I have two originals.
7236 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right. I will go by the one on the CTV renewal,
and the points you raised are the same in both. The points I will be talking
about are the same in both submissions, but the paragraph numbers are
different.
7237 In paragraph 13 you talked about recoupments from existing funds go to
an arms' length agency, an Alberta-based agency. I'm just wondering what you
thought about why you are talking about an independent and arm's length
agency.
7238 MS EDWARDS: Yes. We have found that with the CFCN fund that it was an
arm's length board. It worked extremely well. We thought that it worked in the
interests of the broadcaster and the independent production community.
7239 We want to make it very clear that we believe we are partners in this.
We want to work together. We want to find very creative solutions that will make
things work that we can all move forward towards developing and producing the
best quality programming.
7240 Having an arm's length board just allows again for some more independent
thought to come into the process and we found --
7241 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: It's an interesting idea. I'm wondering whether
you are thinking that more or all of the benefit funds or more of the benefit
funds should be administered independently.
7242 MS EDWARDS: We found that it has been very, very successful and I
believe for the broadcaster as well and that's why we put that forward.
7243 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
7244 Paragraph 19, you have talked about distinctively Canadian
programming. We have talked about this extensively at our hearings on Canadian
television policy about two and a half years ago, and I am wondering two and a
half years later how would you -- how do you define a distinctively Canadian
program? I want to get a sense of whether this is an evolving concept from a
couple of years ago, whether the key elements are the same.
7245 MS EDWARDS: I would have to --
7246 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are you looking at something more based on the
points system or is there -- or can you talk about an agenda?
7247 MS EDWARDS: What we are trying to get at is that we are concerned that
there may be an erosion of Canadian stories. That we want to make sure that
there are still dramas that deal with Canadian issues and Canadian people that
are seen by the people of Canada, instead of say some generic programming.
7248 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. But from the point of view of producers, who
you represent, is there not a benefit of the generic program too because you are
employing people, training people, developing the industry?
7249 MS EDWARDS: Absolutely. I think they both walk side by side. It's very
important we do a number of productions that do precisely that, that put folks
to work in Alberta and we are very thankful and grateful for that. We just don't
want our voice -- our own individual voice to get lost in that process and I
think there is a benefit to having both walking down the road.
7250 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
7251 Paragraph 36, and may this is one of your key recommendations is
the issue of three hours out of eight of priority programming, and I am glad
that you have had a chance to hear what we have talked about last week with the
two applicants. I think I would summarize it much the way you did because it
trusts us and you can call us back if we are so wildly out of this kind of
range.
7252 Certainly neither applicant would like to see a three out of eight a
condition of license. But I just want to understand your proposal a little bit
more clearly first.
7253 Is that a year-by-year amount that you would like us to calculate? I
think at one point perhaps in the Global brief you had suggested it be
calculated every six months.
7254 MS EDWARDS: I think we would like to be open on that particular point.
It could be averaged over the seven years.
7255 I think the people at both Global and CTV, we think that there is a real
commitment and a dedication from those folks to reflect the country. Our concern
is that so many things changed so very quickly. In the last two years we have
seen so many things change. So we are not sure who is going to be in charge two
years from now and that is why we are asking for some of these things to be
conditions of license because it ensures that there is some kind of mechanism to
make sure that there continues to be that representation.
7256 So whether it is on a six month basis or over the course of a year or
every two years, whatever seems to be reasonable that is workable for the
Commission we would be very supportive of.
7257 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Because this is certainly a bit more
flexible than the way I had read your submissions.
7258 MS EDWARDS: You know, we are very flexible.
7259 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I am thinking that in one year if you had two
really good shows out of British Columbia and you wanted 1.5 between B.C. and
the other three provinces then you would in a sense lose out or the station or
the network wouldn't be able to go for that half hour.
7260 MS EDWARDS: I think it is very --
7261 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: It was very tightly calculated.
7262 MS EDWARDS: I think it is very important, first of all, to let you know
we want to be reasonable. Obviously, we have had to choose some finite points
that we wanted to bring forward as some points to begin a discussion. If it's
out of B.C. or if it's Alberta, we don't want to sort of put that the minimums
become the maximum, kind of the floor or the ceiling.
7263 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes. Yes.
7264 MS EDWARDS: We want to do what is reasonable. What is good for the
broadcaster.
7265 Again, we support that they want to do quality programming from whoever
has the best idea and whoever will execute that idea in the best manner. But we
just do want to ensure that it does -- that they are certain --
7266 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes, I understand that.
7267 Conditions of license are perceived quite differently between a
broadcaster who has them imposed on them versus people, producers or the public
who feel that that is the best way of having something ensured.
7268 It really is one of the key points that we have to face as the regulator
in every decision is if there are objectives that are worth realizing what is
the best way of getting there, understanding that a condition of license is a
strong way of getting there, but is really perceived in a less than happy way
from the broadcaster. Sometimes because the flexibility is really what they need
and they can probably get there the same way, over a longer term in a more
flexible way and all those other kinds of arguments.
7269 So I am wondering if you have any other thoughts, short of a condition
of license, that we could get to the type of objective we are looking for and I
am not saying necessarily that we would say it has to work out in a three out of
eight even over an average of seven years. But if we came to some kind of either
numerical or a conceptual guide, is there another way of getting there.
7270 I understand too, I just want to point out that what you have said
today, which I think you hadn't said in writing, was that there be a condition
of license and that they can come and apply for relief from it. So it is kind of
a condition but not necessarily a condition if they have good reason. So you
have suggested something fairly flexible but I am wondering if you have any
other thoughts about how one might get there.
7271 MS EDWARDS: Well, part of the issue is that if it's an expectation, you
know, our experience with some broadcasters has been that that doesn't always
happen. So I understand it's a very, very fine line and we appreciate that
conditions of license. That is a very serious thing to put in place.
7272 So I am not a hundred per cent sure of what else there is between just
an expectation or a commitment on part of the broadcasters as opposed to kind of
putting something very strong in place saying this needs to be here to ensure
that we are going to hear from the folks across the country. So I don't have a
really easy answer for it.
7273 I would like to have an opportunity to think about it and I can file
something with the Commission before the hearing's end.
7274 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, let me just ask you one more question about
this -- about divvying it up among provinces because the other region that often
doesn't get it's fair share or doesn't get very much attention is the Atlantic
region.
7275 I wonder if you have had any thoughts about whether there should be any
kind of numerical approach to that, whether that should be a fourth hour?
Whether regional, meaning the western and the Atlantic, could be part of the
three hours or part of four hours?
7276 MS EDWARDS: Again, I think we would be very flexible on that. The
objective is to get some programming out of the regions. So whether it is the
regions in total, I mean ideally, of course -- very self-serving -- from the
west. Three hours that would be wonderful.
7277 You are right there, there could be another mechanism, maybe it's a
percentage. I don't know that may or may not work better than an actual finite
number of hours. Maybe a percentage is a better way, a more workable way for the
broadcaster.
7278 Again, I am cautious about, you know, I don't want to ghettoize
producers any more than our friend from the Maritimes, Mr. Cochrane. The
objective is we all want to produce programming that the broadcaster is going to
be very happy to put on their network. So it's a very, very fine line, but
perhaps percentage, perhaps hours.
7279 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes, and there is no question, the objective of
getting the stories from across the country on is an important objective, and
that is certainly one that the Act guides us to.
7280 MS EDWARDS: I think the concern is while CTV has got a number of
programs coming out of the western region and Global has committed to a number
of documentary programming, there is nothing really finite in terms of
commitments that is going forward over the next "X" number of years. That is why
we are trying to find some kind of a formula that will make this work so that we
have a little bit of comfort because we are also in business. If there is so
much fluctuation, it is very difficult for us to proceed forward as well.
7281 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But isn't that fluctuation the essence of the
industry in that you could have three out of eight commissioned at the beginning
of the season and they all flop and what takes off is something from, God
forbid, Toronto. One has to sort -- or it may be the other way around too.
7282 You can't commission stuff that ain't good, but, worse, you can't force
them to run stuff that ain't good.
7283 MS EDWARDS: No, and absolutely understood. I think that we would like to
have the opportunity to get in there and produce those programs.
7284 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I don't want to be beating down on what you are
saying. I understand where you are coming from very well.
7285 At paragraph 29, on independent production, you talk about, as I would
understand it, 95 from independent production, and 95 of that 95 would be
non-affiliated independent?
7286 MS EDWARDS: No. I'm sorry, it was a bit convoluted.
7287 We would like to see 95 per cent of the priority programming being
produced by the independent producers as defined by the Commission, which, I
believe, you can own up to 29.9 before you are considered to be an affiliated
producer.
7288 What we are asking is that broadcasters commit to a specific portion of
that 95 per cent that would be produced with absolutely unaffiliated
companies.
7289 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And are you talking about any percentage when you
say a specific per cent?
7290 MS EDWARDS: We would love to see 75 per cent. Again, I think it is
something that one needs to be flexible on. You know, you can maybe have 50 per
cent; somewhere in that range.
7291 We just want to make sure that there is room for 100 per cent completely
--
7292 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right. So you are talking somewhere in the range
of 25 per cent to 50 per cent?
7293 MS EDWARDS: No. We would like to see 50 per cent to 75 per cent of that
--
7294 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Would be independent.
7295 MS EDWARDS: Would be completely, 100 per cent, independent produced.
7296 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Unaffiliated.
7297 MS EDWARDS: Yes.
7298 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Lastly, I was interested to notice that you hadn't
talked about aboriginal production in Alberta, and I am wondering if you could
tell us what the status of aboriginal producers, aboriginal production, in the
province is like.
7299 MS EDWARDS: We are seeing a growth of aboriginal producers. We have had
a number of programs come out of Alberta that we are very happy to see.
7300 It feels that there is more and more that is being done.
7301 Again, we are welcoming that production and trying to assist in getting
that out on the airwaves in whatever way we can. That is, again, why we say
there is a need for a number of diverse voices; so not just the production
company voices, but also the geographically different voices and the voices from
the aboriginal people, from the Innu people.
7302 We have Ukrainian producers. We have a number of French producers who
are producing wonderful programming.
7303 We feel very privileged to have that kind of community in Alberta that
is producing programming that is getting onto the network schedules.
7304 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: With the arrival of APTN, the Aboriginal Peoples
Television Network, is there growth and is your association involved in
assisting the development of aboriginal producers in any way?
7305 MS EDWARDS: We offer various programs through AMPIA, various
mentorships, to assist people to get to markets or to get to festivals to
promote themselves.
7306 There are a number of seminars that we put on that all of our membership
is invited to. And we have had meetings and certainly discussions with our
aboriginal friends to find creative ways to assist in any way we can.
7307 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks very much. This discussion is very helpful
in finding ways in which we can make some moves on regional production. I
appreciate your comments.
7308 MS EDWARDS: Thank you for listening.
7309 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Edwards.
7310 Mr. Secretary?
7311 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7312 I would like to say that, according to our agenda, our next appearing
intervenor was to be British Columbia Film, but they have since advised us that
they would like to participate via teleconference. So we will be hearing from
Mr. Egan later today via that route.
7313 In the meantime, it is my pleasure to introduce le Groupe Columbia
Communications Inc., Mr. Jonathan Goldbloom.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
7314 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
7315 MR. GOLDBLOOM: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners. I have had the
pleasure of being associated with Global Quebec from the outset, first as a
consultant, and subsequently as a member of the advisory board. In fact, I
appeared before you several years ago, along with my colleagues on the advisory
board, in support of Global Quebec's original licence application. Thank you for
agreeing to this return visit.
7316 The advisory board continues to be chaired by John Parisella, a well
known political activist. Members include Owen Carter, Hélène Lee Gosselin and
Bruce Hicks of Quebec City, Hugh Auger of the Eastern Townships, and Lise
LaChapelle and myself of Montreal. We are lawyers, educators, business people
and spin doctors.
7317 What we have in common is that all of us are deeply involved and
committed to our respective communities.
7318 As a group, our regional and linguistic mix reflects Global Quebec's
twin strategic objectives of being a regional station that covers Quebec in
English.
7319 When the advisory committee appeared before the Commission in the summer
of 1997, we indicated that our mission was to provide management with feedback
on station-produced programming, give advice on community relations, including
the selection of special programming, and act as a representative of Global
Quebec.
7320 The mission has, in turn, been converted into a concrete action plan. I
believe that we have played an important role in the development of regional
programming.
7321 Hugh Auger has spent more than two decades working for the public school
board in the Townships. As a result of this experience he was the inciting force
behind Global's partnership with school boards across the province.
7322 Hugh has also established a regular dialogue with Global's Sherbrooke
news team, bringing story ideas to their attention and providing community
feedback on the coverage.
7323 My personal involvement has involved establishing stronger links between
Quebec's Jewish community and the station. Using the annual March to Jerusalem
and the Israeli Street Festival as a springboard, a one-hour special was
developed on the history of the Jewish communities of Montreal, Sherbrooke and
Quebec City, and on the concerns and challenges they are facing today.
7324 The program has been broadcast on at least two occasions, regionally and
nationally. Moreover, Heather Hiscox, the host of the program, subsequently
became very involved with several community events, including a series of
activities at Temple Emanuel Beth Shalom.
7325 The advisory board has also proved, I believe, to be an invaluable
sounding board. In the area of political commentary, we have not hesitated to
comment if we felt that the coverage was too one-sided or unbalanced. We have
encouraged management to open their airwaves to a variety of opinions, both from
within Quebec's English-speaking community and the larger French-speaking
community. We in fact were one of the first groups to scream loudly when we
heard that the station was advertising on Howard Stern.
7326 I should also point out that we have taken our regional mandate very
seriously. At least one of our quarterly meetings takes place on an annual basis
in either the Eastern Townships or Quebec City. On such occasions we host a
reception with community leaders, which enables us to provide an update on
Global Quebec's activities and benefit from their feedback. Our May meeting, for
example, is taking place at Bishops University in Lennoxville.
7327 As we look back over the past four years since Global Quebec began
broadcasting, the advisory board takes great pride in the progress the station
has made. Global Quebec has certainly experienced growing pains, but today it is
a stronger and an increasingly important player on the province's television
landscape.
7328 Its news teams in Montreal, Sherbrooke and Quebec City provide broader
geographic coverage than the competition. Its fast-paced and entertaining
morning show is the only Quebec-centred one in English in our market. "This
Morning Live" benefits from having anchors in both Montreal and Quebec City. By
watching for 20 minutes as you get dressed or dress the children, viewers are
brought up to date locally and regionally. Coverage ranges from the success of
the Laval football program to traffic problems on the Decarie to the
Brome-Mississquoi Hospital fighting for its bilingual status and the meningitis
outbreak in the Quebec City region.
7329 I should also point out that Global Quebec's 5:30 newscast, which is a
lead-in to its 6 o'clock regional newscast, also distinguishes the station from
its competitors.
7330 Global Quebec also reflects the diversity and varied interests of the
communities it serves. Regional programs have included coverage of the St.
Patrick's Day Parade, the Quebec Winter Carnival, the 2000 Junior Alpine World
Ski Championships, the Granby Song Festival, and Carifiesta 2000. We have
introduced English-speaking Quebecers and indeed Canadians in other provinces to
the talents of Jean-Pierre Ferland and Linda Lemay.
7331 Global Quebec has put its promotional muscle to work to support its
goals as a community-minded broadcaster serving a large and diverse marketplace.
An ever-increasing number of charitable and community organizations are
benefiting from association with us.
7332 Among the many charities that we have supported in the past year are the
Montreal History Museum, the Brome County Fair, the Missing Children's Network
Radiothon of Hope, the Montreal Children's Hospital and the Shrine Bowl.
7333 In looking ahead, Global Quebec has a strong base from which to build.
Its personalities like Leslie Roberts, Jamie Orchard and Karen Macdonald are
increasingly becoming fixtures in the community. They are involved with
organizations like the Montreal Children's Hospital Foundation, Generations
Foundation and Voice of English Quebec. Its regional programming is consistently
attracting more and more viewers.
7334 The Advisory Board will continue to do its part to ensure that Global
Quebec continues to provide Quebecers with a refreshing and innovative window on
ourselves.
7335 Together we will continue to build bridges of understanding between all
Quebecers by covering Quebec in English and providing an outlet for a wide
variety of voices.
7336 Thank you very much.
7337 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Goldbloom.
7338 I will turn to Commissioner Wylie.
7339 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Good morning, Mr. Goldbloom.
7340 We often have Advisory Councils put forward with applicants, but we
hardly ever see them again -- in the front benches at least. So it's nice
to see you.
7341 So these will be my questions on how this works and how it helps because
you appear to take some credit for any success of CKMI in Montreal. Is that
correct that you take some credit with the success of CKMI as a member of the
advisory council?
7342 MR. GOLDBLOOM: We take limited credit. I think that management still
runs the station, but the Advisory Board is there to participate and provide
advice and to be in regular contact.
7343 So management is still managing the station and makes all the final
decisions, but I believe we have had some successful input.
7344 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: That's good because we wouldn't want to impose
conditions of licence on Advisory Boards, would we?
7345 Do you see yourself as a council or a board as proactive or reactive to
the output on the screen?
7346 MR. GOLDBLOOM: We are largely reactive except on the basis of general
overview of where the station is going and at our quarterly meetings we will put
items on the agenda and we will also encourage the station -- the school
board affiliation which now has led to a whole program of teachers' assistance
on both the weather and both on technology really comes from us. It was our
insisting, particularly Hugh Auger, of getting management together with a
representative of the school board. Similarly the work with the Jewish community
with the St. Patrick's Day parade.
7347 We have helped start the discussion. It's up to management to pursue it
and decide if it makes sense for the station.
7348 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: You meet three times a year.
7349 MR. GOLDBLOOM: Four times.
7350 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Four times a year. And do you give advice on
programming, scheduling or at a very general macro level?
7351 MR. GOLDBLOOM: We are consultated, particularly on the news programming,
one in terms of the timing. When Global first started it was a 5:30 local or
regional newscast and advising on the move to 6:00 on the morning program, we
were consulted. We have been consulted on some of the participants on some of
the political programming.
7352 For example, Global now every Sunday has a discussion between David
Payne who is a Parti québécois member of the National Assembly and Tommy
Schnurmaker who is a CJAD reporter. We were the ones who encouraged them to have
both sides of the fence. We are now encouraging Global -- and I think they
are going to be taking us up on it -- that the English community needs to
have its wider voices represented as well and Mr. Schnurmaker represents one
element in an important facet of the community, but there are other voices that
need to be heard as well and that we need to be considering that both on the
morning show and on the Sunday programming.
7353 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: You, I know, live in Montreal. CKMI was licensed as
a regional station, anchored really in Quebec City and retransmitted in Montreal
and in Sherbrooke. One of the concerns often is how regional it remains.
7354 Is that something you perceive or your colleagues perceive a difficulty
in preventing the station from becoming too Montreal-centric, other than perhaps
the Legislature, of course, but apart from that -- which would obviously
come from Quebec City whether or not the station was from Quebec City or
Montreal.
7355 MR. GOLDBLOOM: The reality is that it's a significant challenge. The
largest English-speaking population in the province is obviously in Montreal and
so you want to have programming that's attractive to that population group. But
at the same time, the Advisory Board, particularly through its membership and
that we have the majority -- we have three members from Quebec City and
three from Montreal and one from the Townships so at least the majority is
off-island -- pays a significant amount of attention one, in liaising with
the English-speaking groups that are active and vibrant in the off-island
communities and two, in ensuring or providing advice on how best to cover
them.
7356 I think Global, to its credit, has not only covered the National
Assembly. Every morning when you turn into Mr. Fillion's commentary on Global
Quebec and his reports on the morning show, it goes way beyond just what the
Premier has said or whatever is going on there. It covers the local stories of
Quebec City and our reporter in Sherbrooke is trying to do the same. But clearly
it's a difficult challenge finding the balance.
7357 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: This may be seen as an unfair question, but that's
my specialty so I will ask it.
7358 Are you supportive of the proposal to have local advertising permitted
on CKMI, if you combine it with this difficulty of keeping the station from
being Montreal-centric? Do you think there is a relationship between the two?
You need not answer if you don't want to.
7359 MR. GOLDBLOOM: Clearly our mandate is to be a regional station, and as
an Advisory Board we are very conscious of that. At the same time, we are
encouraging Global Quebec to invest more significantly in regional programming
whether that is the Quebec City Carnival or whatever is going on in Granby. We
were involved in the birthday celebrations of Sherbrooke.
7360 If local advertising is going to help secure the financial viability and
be reinvested in regional programming, then within certain limits I would have
very little difficulty with that.
7361 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Would you see one of the Board's -- not duty,
but one of the roles it can play, should the Commission allow local advertising
on CKMI in Montreal, to be vigilant about the direction that the station could
take to be more Montreal-centric as a result of the support of local
advertisers.
7362 MR. GOLDBLOOM: That's fundamentally our job to be vigilant on this issue
of ensuring that not only that Global Quebec lives up to its licensing
agreements and we get reports back on where we are in terms of that, but also
that it reflect the English-speaking community as a whole regardless of where it
lives in the province and that it recover Quebec in English. I think that has
been one of the fundamental values that we are insisting on and I would
encourage us to be mandated to continue to do that.
7363 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: What do you see as your largest role in the coming
few years on the licence term?
7364 MR. GOLDBLOOM: It continues to be to ensure a couple of things. One,
Global Quebec is still a new station. Its news teams and its public affairs
teams, these programs are evolving and they are getting better and I think it's
our role to provide them with constructive criticism when necessary and to help
them move into new directions.
7365 I also think that the situation in Quebec is always one where there is a
need, a constant need to build dialogue between different communities, whether
that's between the culture of the communities and the majority French-speaking
community, between our Italian community and the Jewish community, whatever, and
between Sherbrooke and Montreal and Quebec City and Montreal. I think that we
have a constant challenge of doing that and that Global Quebec can be a vital
force in that.
7366 It also is providing a life -- helping the communities,
particularly in the off-island of Montreal, whether it's in the Townships or
Quebec City, reaching out to those English-speaking communities to ensure that
they see themselves on our screens, that that's going to constantly be a
challenge as those populations age, as their institutions become that much more
difficult to support.
7367 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Do you see this Advisory Board being involved at all
with the CJNT station -- perhaps with the English-language part of it or
even you have raised the third language or third culture communities.
7368 MR. GOLDBLOOM: Well, I sit on the CJNT Advisory Board as well.
7369 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: As well.
7370 MR. GOLDBLOOM: So I'm one of the links between the two and I think that
the CJNT Advisory Board is just getting its legs, it's just starting and we have
an enormous challenge within the Montreal community of supporting the new
mandate of CJNT to raise the quality of its programming, to reach out and
provide quality programming in a variety of languages, but also ensure that the
percentage that it's English and French of mainstream type programming be
effective as well.
7371 I think that the two in six months or a year probably should be getting
together -- the two Advisory Boards -- and learning from each other's
experiences and working together.
7372 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: You raised the participation of Miss Hiscox. Am I
right that you have lost her to Hamilton?
7373 MR. GOLDBLOOM: Yes, she has gone to Hamilton.
7374 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Well, thank you for coming to speak to us as a
member of the Advisory Board in the front seat.
7375 Thank you.
7376 MR. GOLDBLOOM: My pleasure. Thank you.
7377 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Goldbloom.
7378 Mr. Secretary.
7379 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7380 Our next intervenor is the Association of Canadian Advertisers.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
7381 MR. LUND: Mr. Chair, Madam Vice-Chair, Commissioners, Commission staff
and counsel. We very much appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today
to elaborate on our written intervention.
7382 I am Ron Lund, President and CEO of the Association of Canadian
Advertisers and with me today is Bob Rheaume -- I think most of you know
him -- who is the Vice-President of Media and Research for the Association.
Judy Davey, our broadcast Chair and Vice-President of Media Promotion
unfortunately was called away and couldn't join us today.
7383 The Association of Canadian Advertisers has been exclusively
representing our members' interests since 1914 and counts among our members a
very broad cross-section of over 200 major companies and their divisions who
advertise their products and services in Canada, accounting for over $215
million in sales.
7384 Our member companies come from many industry sectors, including
manufacturing, retail, packaged goods, financial services, communications and
many more.
7385 Now, I'm sure it will come to no surprise to you when I say that
television advertising is in fact very important to advertisers. After years of
using the medium to promote our products and services, advertisers feel we have
made a very substantial investment in this medium into television, an investment
in what is very, very important to us and we want to protect that
investment.
7386 Advertising is still the primary funding resource sustaining the
Canadian broadcasting system. In all its forms, advertising is estimated to
represent an annual of $10 billion investment in the Canadian economy. Of this
amount, approximately $2.3 billion is invested annually in television. Of all
the diverse sources of funding that support the Canadian broadcasting system,
advertising is the largest.
7387 As Mr. Asper reminded everyone last week, advertising is the engine of
the system and without its continued contribution dominos will begin to
fall.
7388 For many advertisers, conventional broadcasting is still the work horse
of building brands and in spite of reducing audiences that we are getting these
days. A healthy broadcasting system is critical for advertisers in Canada.
Advertising pays for the content and advertisers are in fact silent partners in
the system.
7389 Advertisers will only continue to use television as a medium to reach
their target if on careful reflection the amount and the quality of viewers for
the price paid remains acceptable.
7390 We are here today to register our concern in this regard and give fair
warning.
7391 Commissioners, we are opposed to Global's specific request to be
relieved of the regulatory obligation regarding advertising limits and the
request to change this average to 12 minutes calculated instead on a weekly
basis.
7392 The fact is this is a bad idea. While this may indeed be the place to
discuss it, we don't believe it is the time to be discussing it.
7393 MR. RHEAUME: Good morning, Commissioners.
7394 Make no mistake, this proposal does not in any way retain the 12-minute
limit by averaging it out over a whole week. It will create differing levels of
excessively cluttered prime time shows and encourage viewers to further practise
commercial avoidance.
7395 It represents a dilution of the television product, a hidden but very
real cost for advertisers, and is very short-sighted thinking on the part of the
broadcasting industry.
7396 One of the fundamental principles of commerce is the right to know what
is being offered before purchase. This scheme would make it impossible for
advertisers to know ahead if their ad will be one among 24 or one among 44 --
quite a different value proposition.
7397 Let me illustrate.
7398 An example might be a hockey game. As an advertiser, you agree to buy
ten signs at the Corel Centre for a Senators game. In this example, of course,
this would have to be for next season. You expect ten signs with your ad out of
the 40 in the stadium, but when you show up you discover that tonight there is a
total of 65 signs there, not 40. Your expected 25 per cent impact has just been
reduced to only 15 per cent.
7399 Or could you imagine say Canadian Club supplying their product at 40
proof today and then maybe 60 proof tomorrow, but with the promise: Don't worry,
it will all average out to 80 proof over the long run.
7400 Commissioners, advertisers deserve to know up-front what they are
buying. This scheme will make that very difficult, if not impossible. It is a
bad idea.
7401 As we have outlined in our written intervention, clutter has already
become a serious problem on Canadian television. ACA's research indicates that
the environment is already far above the 12-minute so-called limit. In fact, 80
per cent of broadcast hours in Canada currently run in excess of 12 minutes of
non-program material at an average of 14-2/3 minutes. This is having an
effect.
7402 For instance, average TV commercial recall scores have dropped 16 per
cent in just eight years. This is a widely used general measure for
memorability; as well, depending on which study you use, somewhere between 50
and 69 per cent of Canadians practise some form of TV commercial avoidance on a
regular basis.
7403 New research, as recent as October 2000, indicates that recall scores
plunge as the number of commercial units in a pod increases. Commercials in pods
with seven to nine units, for instance, have on average 14 per cent less recall,
jumping to 21 per cent less effective in pods with ten or more units.
7404 Seven units per pod is common today on Canadian television; ten is not
uncommon.
7405 Something is happening to advertising effectiveness on television, and
we think we know what it is.
7406 In prime time in Toronto, ACA's own research indicates that fully 91 per
cent of programming runs over 12 minutes, with an average of 15 minutes of
non-program material and 38 interruptions per hour.
7407 Compare this with specialty stations in prime time with only 66 per cent
of shows running at over 12 minutes, and you get a glimpse of one reason why
specialties have been so successful in attracting revenue.
7408 Then take a look at Global. Ninety-seven per cent -- that's right,
almost all of Global's prime time programming -- runs with more than 12 minutes
per hour of non-program material, at an average in fact of 15 minutes and 20
seconds and with an average of 40 individual units per hour.
7409 This ranks Global with the most dubious distinction as being Toronto's
most cluttered TV station.
7410 Commissioners, we do need more conventional inventory in most markets in
Canada, and providing that will repatriate dollars to the conventional stations.
We do not need this new inventory on those stations that are already running at
15 minutes per hour.
7411 We need new conventional stations in Canada with fewer commercials, not
more commercials on the conventional stations that we have.
7412 Concerned with the continuing increase in clutter that our studies are
showing, ACA conducted two random audits of Canadian broadcasters in two
different markets. In both cases we discovered that broadcasters were
non-compliant with the 12-minute regulation.
7413 As we mentioned in our intervention, schedules in the U.S. are rife with
commercial clutter, with Sunday parts running as high as 21 minutes per hour of
non-program material. That is over one-third.
7414 We realize that this presents a special problem for Canadian
broadcasters who bring in U.S. shows short on program time. Why do we have to
accept that nothing can be done but to rise -- or is it lower -- to their
level?
7415 We must find innovative and creative ways to deal with these
differences. If t his is largely just a U.S. problem, do we have to assume that
our only option is to import it?
7416 As the Commission well knows, commercial time has been deregulated in
the U.S. for some years now, as well as radio time in Canada. But there are big
differences. There are 600 radio stations in Canada and only 131 commercial TV
stations.
7417 Radio has lots of inventory and lots of competition. Not so in
conventional TV.
7418 In the U.S. there is an average of six commercial TV stations per market
versus only three per market in Canada; again, lots of inventory in the U.S.,
lots of competition.
7419 We may find the conditions are right to deregulate commercial time on TV
in Canada some day, but it is not today, at least not until there is more
competition with more inventory among conventional broadcasters.
7420 MR. LUND: Finally, Commissioners, we want to underscore once again that
in our opinion such a fundamental change to the broadcasting policy should be
contemplated within the context of larger policy hearings. Even the specialty
channel increases from 8 to 12 minutes per hour were weighed within the
context of the existing 12-minute limit. It was not so much a change in policy
but adjustment within that policy.
7421 A new comprehensive broadcasting policy came into effect just this fall.
It may seem too soon for some. However, if the Commission feels that it is time
to debate these issues again, we would welcome the opportunity to
participate.
7422 As you know, advertisers feel there is a lot of room for
improvement.
7423 Once again, thank you very much for allowing us to present our
presentation. We would be delighted to take any questions you may have.
7424 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Lund.
7425 While you said this morning and in your written brief that if we were to
make any change we should have a separate proceeding to deal with that issue, I
presume your point of view would be that even if we had a separate proceeding we
should not make a change.
7426 MR. LUND: That would be correct.
7427 THE CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned this morning that advertising is the
engine of Canadian television, and it is the largest source of revenue that goes
back into the Canadian programming for the system.
7428 I suppose one could argue that advertising is one of the main engines of
our capitalist free market society.
7429 Considering that, in considering the other elements you have raised
about advertising, that clutter drives down the value and setting aside the
differences that Mr. Rhéaume just mentioned between Canada and the U.S., why
should we need to regulate this at all?
7430 MR. RHEAUME: Commissioner Colville, we may not have to regulate this in
the future. The problem is supply right now and competition.
7431 If you were to deregulate the number of minutes, you should at the very
same time deregulate the number of stations. What we have right now is a very
few number of stations with a limited supply of inventory that you control by
your regulation.
7432 We are not necessarily opposed to deregulation in this area. We just
think that there are not enough stations and supply of inventory right now to
take that step.
7433 THE CHAIRPERSON: You draw a big distinction, obviously, between the
over-the-air stations and local markets and all the specialties.
7434 MR. RHEAUME: There is a big difference. The number of specialties that
have been licensed in the past decade has been terrific, and advertisers have
supported them wholeheartedly. It creates terrific vehicles to advertise and
market our products and services.
7435 The growth has not been as spectacular on conventional stations. As I
mentioned, the average right now is still only three outlets per market in
Canada. In the U.S. there are six outlets per market for commercial TV
sales.
7436 We think that almost every market in Canada could stand another
conventional station, or two in some cases.
7437 THE CHAIRPERSON: Setting aside the number of stations, taking the
stations that we have in the market, you make your case in your written
submission, as you have this morning, that with the existing clutter -- and you
talk about the amount of space that is non-programming, so there is the paid
commercial advertising plus promotions for Canadian programs and other clutter,
to use your term.
7438 You say that there is increasing audience aggravation about those times.
People are turning away from those commercials, and it is reducing the value of
those ads.
7439 Why would there not instinctively be a synergy between the advertisers
and the broadcasters, to say we want to maximize this opportunity?
7440 You referred in your written submission to an agreement with all the CAB
members back in 1990 and I guess individual broadcasters, perhaps in their
individual self-interest, moved away from that.
7441 Why would the regulator, the Commission, not assume that the advertisers
and broadcasters working together would not want to maximize the value?
7442 MR. LUND: I think Bob summarized it. We are working in an almost
oligopolistic market.
7443 Going back to your other point, it is not just the value, how much we
are paying; it is actual effectiveness.
7444 I think you would also note that not all broadcasters are in favour of
increasing from 12 to 14 minutes per hour.
7445 What we seem to have here is a situation where -- and it is a cynical
view of it perhaps -- it says we have more audiences than anyone else in prime
time, so please allow us to get more money for it. We will average that out
where we don't have audiences.
7446 That not only makes it unfair versus other conventional broadcast
stations, but it also makes it unfair to the advertiser because they are not
coming back to us and saying: And we are going to decrease the cost of that
commercial, because we are the only game in town. We are going to in fact
decrease the effectiveness.
7447 That is why it is a hidden cost versus a hard cost, because the
audiences just are not there. They are switching. There are some other
stations.
7448 MR. RHEAUME: If your question is, if I understand correctly, why can't
we get together and work this out, I think it is because there are so many
disparate self-interests at work here. One broadcaster's fortune at this point
in time is another's misfortune. You can't make cats and dogs get along, I
guess.
7449 THE CHAIRPERSON: You did mention the working together with the CAB about
ten years ago to try to deal with this issue.
7450 Where are you today in working with CAB to trying to get some sort of
industry consensus on an approach to this advertising question?
7451 Quite outside of the regulation, I presume that you have a self-interest
in wanting to make sure that the advertising that gets on there is the most
effective and even if one was within the existing 12 minutes would want to work
with the broadcasters in order to be able to maximize the effectiveness of these
ads.
7452 MR. LUND: Absolutely. In fact, this is quite a disappointment to us. We
have met with one broadcaster to gain some direction, and it was strongly
suggested to us that in fact we should speak to the CAB; that we were on to
something here.
7453 Unfortunately, we have had a great deal of difficulty getting Mr. McCabe
to pay attention. He has had some other pressing issues, but in fact we have
been -- not to deminimize the Canadian pot for him. But the long and short of it
is that he seems to be disinterested.
7454 So we just have to discuss this publicly instead. It is unfortunate.
7455 THE CHAIRPERSON: Where are you with respect to this issue that we talked
about last week, about this notion of virtual advertising or advertising that
gets superimposed either within the program or overlaid on top of the program
outside of the 12 minutes, or however many minutes of non-programming in the
hour?
7456 MR. LUND: Generally speaking, we are in favour of it. We don't look at
it quite the same way.
7457 One of the things virtual advertising does do for us is it does in fact
get us away from the clutter. It tends to be more in line with programming of
products in programs, et cetera, more in program. It is one way we at least can
get away from the clutter, because someone cannot decide to switch in the middle
of the program.
7458 MR. RHEAUME: I would add that as this develops -- it is a terrific new
way to use the medium. As this develops, we must be very sensitive to not having
it be overly intrusive so that it ticks off the viewer. So we have to be careful
as this develops. But it is anti-clutter.
7459 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, it's early days, I guess, of using this sort of
advertising medium. Wouldn't you be just as worried that viewers would get
concerned about that and perhaps just abandon the program?
7460 MR. RHEAUME: Yes. We would be very concerned about that which is why it
must be done quite carefully. For instance, you couldn't pop up something in the
middle of a dramatic moment and start selling soap at that time. It has to be
integrated into the narrative. It has to be imbedded into the program. It has to
be done very, very sensitively and we are all experimenting with this right
now.
7461 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you don't trust the broadcasters to deal with the
number of minutes per hour from this point of view in terms of sensitivity, but
you do in virtual advertising.
7462 MR. RHEAUME: Until we see that they are not handling it properly, sure,
we will trust them to experiment with this. You know, they are not experimenting
just on their own. They are talking with our members, advertisers and the
professionals advertising, intermediaries, the media advisers who help us.
Together we are creating this new approach.
7463 THE CHAIRPERSON: From a regulatory point of view, you seem to want
fairly stringent control on the number of minutes that would be devoted to
non-program material in any given hour. From a regulatory point of view, how
would we deal with this virtual advertising which is outside those minutes,
whether it's 12 or 15 or whatever? How would we ever deal with that or should
we?
7464 MR. LUND: Well, again, maybe a slight correction. As we said earlier,
what we have a problem with is dealing with the 12 minute limit as part of a
licensing hearing. We believe that because of the current environment, as Bob
described, the competitive environment of regulations on one end, but now we are
going to take the regulations off the other end, we believe it should be part of
a larger hearing in which case hopefully there would be more competition as well
that could ameliorate some of the inventory situation.
7465 When we talk about stringent control, we are saying we already have
regulations, let's live by those regulations. That's quite a different thing
than the speculation of how some other hearings may turn out.
7466 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, just take up on that point then. Let's assume we
stick with the 12 minutes and 12 minutes of advertising per hour is what should
be the rule, that is the rule, should we be saying until or unless we hold
another proceeding, there should be no virtual advertising?
7467 MR. LUND: No. It's not under that regulation right now.
7468 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, but in effect we are getting more advertising in
any event.
7469 MR. LUND: No, but as we explained, our perspective on that right now
versus the speculation in the future how much could be too much, we are saying
one of the reasons we are for that right now is that it does in fact remove us
from that clutter situation. It is anti-clutter.
7470 Right now what happens as commercials come on, one, two or three into
the pot, people are somewhere else. Virtual advertising, they are into the
programming. If it does go too far obviously, as Bob said, people could turn
away from that. We haven't even remotely reached that point just yet.
7471 MR. RHEAUME: It's a different type of advertising too. I won't pretend
to suggest whether you should or should not count this and regulate this. We
just don't know yet.
7472 It is, you know -- people in their daily lives drink soft drinks and
drive cars and what have you. I'm speaking of product placement. In an outdoor
scene, you know, there are billboards in outdoor scenes, et cetera. This is
quite less intrusive than the normal type of advertising.
7473 If you take a look at a hockey game, you have got billboards on the side
of the rink and what have you. If you actually go to a hockey game, the
billboards are still on the side of the rink. They are in reality so this type
of advertising is more reflective of the environment rather than an intrusive
interruption in reality.
7474 It's not to say if it should be or should not be regulated. We can't
offer an opinion at this point, no.
7475 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm not looking for more things to regulate. I'm trying
to understand the distinction between we must maintain the 12 minutes as
commercial breaks within the hour, but don't be concerned, let this other side
grow and don't attempt to regulate that.
7476 MR. RHEAUME: Here's the difference from our point of view. Because there
are more and more commercials on Canadian television, we know that viewers take
off when the commercials come on. It never used to be that way, but they take
off.
7477 If they keep doing that, if recall scores keep going down, if we find
the medium continues to be less and less effective, it's bad news for
everybody.
7478 THE CHAIRPERSON: If that's true, and I don't doubt that it is, are we
going to see more virtual advertising then because as viewers take off during
the commercial breaks, and they are always at the same time -- if you flip
across the channels, all the channels are having their commercial break at the
same time -- are we going to see more and more, outside of sports programming
where it seems to be a logical fit, are we going to see more virtual
advertising?
7479 Are your members going to want more virtual advertising in the content
of drama and other entertainment programs?
7480 MR. LUND: If it's effective. I think the jury is out even to see if it's
effective yet. If it's effective, people will definitely be drawn to it. If it's
not effective in terms of recalling the products, et cetera -- I mean for years,
even on product placement, people say, you know, "What was the value of that can
of soda? What was the value of whatever product was in there? Was that the same
as something else?"
7481 I don't think there is any measurement on that yet as far as I certainly
know. If it's effective, I think there would be a move to use more of it,
yes.
7482 THE CHAIRPERSON: We're talking about possibly seven year renewals. As
Mr. Cochran noted this morning, if you look back seven years, a lot has changed
over that period of time. Looking forward, do you think we are likely to see
considerable changes in the whole approach to dealing with advertising on
television over the next seven years?
7483 Is it your sense that this is likely to be effective and we are going to
see a lot more of it?
7484 MR. RHEAUME: Virtual advertising you mean?
7485 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
7486 MR. RHEAUME: I think yes. I think that eventually after enough
experimentation someone will find the right way and the most effective way to do
this and it will become a useful tool for marketers and we will see more of it.
Yes.
7487 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is that something that we should be concerned about
from a regulatory point of view then because you obviously have concerns from a
regulatory point of view about the 12 minutes?
7488 MR. RHEAUME: I think that as we find out how to do this well, there may
be a need for some kind of guidelines on what is acceptable, what is not
acceptable.
7489 As I mentioned before, during a dramatic moment we wouldn't want a
little washing machine to pop up in the corner to start advertising appliances
or something. There may come a time where we might need some guidelines on
this.
7490 MR. LUND: The other thing is how big does it get. It wasn't that long
ago at another hearing where we were all worried that all the advertising
dollars from television were going to run to the Internet. Now, of course, the
latest word is don't buy a banner ad, you would be wasting your dollars.
7491 So effectiveness is something again that the jury is still out with,
virtual advertising. It's in its infancy.
7492 THE CHAIRPERSON: So does this suggest to you that -- again quite apart
from the 12 minutes it's something the Commission probably should be reviewing
in a few years' time?
7493 MR. LUND: Absolutely.
7494 THE CHAIRPERSON: One last point. On the amount of non-programming
avails, you know, we talk about advertising, we talk about engines here -- a lot
of people know I'm a bit of a motor-head so it's probably a good analogy, but
another engine of the system in Canada is American programming.
7495 If the programs are purchased already with 15 minutes of avails in them,
what are you doing in working with your American counterparts to address this
issue on a North American-wide basis because if we end up with 50 per cent of
the content being American and there's 15 minute slots there -- you referred to
all the clutter that comes from even, you know, the promos for Canadian
programming and other things.
7496 How does one address this on a North American-wide basis?
7497 MR. LUND: Well, I don't know if you could address it on a North American
basis. I mean first of all, we don't necessarily support purchase of American
programming over Canadian programming. I think we have before the Commission
said before we tend to be very mercenary. We just follow the audiences. That's
what we purchase.
7498 An American program that doesn't do very well doesn't get purchased any
more than the Canadian program that doesn't do very well, so it really is: is
the audience there or not?
7499 Again, Bob and I hypothesized the type of things that could be done. If
there is a two minute gap on programming, to take an example, there is a -- and
we recognize that's a problem with a purchase -- there could be creative
ways such as with that two minutes of programming, let's not have a potential of
eight 15 second spots.
7500 Maybe we would like that sold as a two-minute spot or two one-minute
spots. Maybe in fact they could then for that particular spot get some Canadian
content credit or something. There could be all kinds of creative ways to look
at that two minutes, three minutes or four minutes.
7501 Incidentally, in the States, as I believe our intervention states,
advertisers aren't overjoyed. It happens to be deregulated, but the advertisers
and advertising agencies publish yearly a report that monitors the most
cluttered stations and they are given to media buyers and that to beware of the
efficacy of those programs.
7502 While there may not be a regulatory body that talks about how much time
there is, that same type of regulation is happening through the industry itself,
so it's not like everything is A-OK.
7503 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. That's what was at the root of my question. Are
your colleagues in the States working with the broadcasters to address this
issue?
7504 MR. LUND: Well, actually no. They are -- I would not say working
with them. They publish reports about them to avoid buying certain times and
certain stations.
7505 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you don't see a solution to this problem in terms of
the American programming coming into --
7506 MR. LUND: Not in terms of content, no. In fact, although I haven't seen
anything recently, I think it was six or nine months ago, Bob, that stations
were trying to in fact decrease content by another minute or two.
7507 MR. RHEAUME: Thirty seconds.
7508 MR. LUND: By 30 seconds more, so no, there doesn't seem to be any
abating of the problem.
7509 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Those are all my questions.
7510 Thank you very much, gentlemen.
7511 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7512 We will now hear an intervention on behalf of Jim Pattison Industries
Limited and Telemedia Radio (West) Inc.
INTERVENTION \ INTERVENTION
7513 MR. ARNISH: Good morning.
7514 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.,
7515 MR. ARNISH: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners and Commission
staff. My name is Rick Arnish and I am President of the Jim Pattison Broadcast
Group. I was born and raised in Kamloops, British Columbia and commenced my
career with CFJC-TV in 1969 and have worked in that local broadcast operation
since that time.
7516 To my left is Mr. David St. Laurent who is the President of CS
MediaGroup West Inc. David's company has represented the secondary market
television stations in Terrace, Dawson Creek and Prince George, British
Columbia, for the past eight years and is very knowledgeable about advertising
patterns for secondary market television in British Columbia.
7517 To my far right is Mr. Hugh McKinnon who is the Vice-President of
Telemedia Radio (West) Inc. To my right is our legal counsel, Mr. Chris
Weafer.
7518 This intervention is on behalf of Jim Pattison Industries Limited, which
operates the sole local television stations in Kamloops and Prince George, B.C.
and Telemedia Radio (West) Inc., which operates the sole local television
stations in Terrace and Dawson Creek, B.C.
7519 We oppose the application by CTV Television Inc. to distribute CIVT-TV
as a distant signal in our local markets.
7520 Of the over 100 stations which have been authorized by the Commission to
be carried in our local communities by cable or DTH, we provide the only local
television programming services in our communities. This programming is funded
entirely by local, regional and national advertising revenues.
7521 Our local programming is of essential importance to the communities we
serve, providing local news service, keeping the community aware of local
cultural, political and social events, and advising of local weather or
emergency conditions. Our local television stations have won numerous community,
provincial and national awards for our service.
7522 In summary, we oppose CTV's application to distribute CIVT-TV as a
distant signal in our markets for the following reasons: (a) Approval will upset
the balance between CHAN-TV and secondary market stations in B.C. (b) Approval
will cause material economic harm to the intervenors. (c) Approval is contrary
to the objectives of the Broadcasting Act and, (d), the applicant has made no
material attempt to reach a commercial arrangement and we believe the Commission
should support commercial arrangements amongst broadcasters which preserve
diversity of service in a market.
7523 The existence of the local television stations is in part the result of
a longstanding local insertion agreement between the stations and CHAN-TV as
discussed above.
7524 These agreements have enabled the secondary market stations to serve
their local markets by having the right to replace lower mainland and regional
advertising commercials of CHAN-TV with local commercials and regional accounts
sold by the local television stations. This commercial arrangement was
negotiated and approved by the Commission before the station was permitted
access to the local television stations' market over 30 years ago. That
condition of licence has never been removed and continues to be honoured
today.
7525 Approval of this application by the Commission will lead to other
Vancouver and Victoria-based stations applying to distribute their distant
signals to be carried in the local television stations markets and may possibly
result in CHAN-TV, and its affiliate CHEK-TV, applying to be carried as a
distant signal as well. This in turn would result in the collapse of the
longstanding CHAN-TV agreement.
7526 The opening of the local market to these services and the subsequent
loss of revenue to the local television stations will devastate our local
operations resulting in the loss of local programming and local service in
Kamloops, Prince George, Terrace and Dawson Creek. This is contrary to the
objectives of the Broadcasting Act.
7527 This issue was discussed last year with the Commission in the context of
the Look Application to bring wireless cable to the interior markets with the
carriage of Vancouver signals. The Commission recognized the problem created by
that application and instead approved the Craig application which excluded those
out-of-market signals.
7528 As an example of local service, the Pattison station, CFJC-TV, operates
from Kamloops and provides a broad range of local and regional programming to
170,000 viewers in its broadcast area. CFJC-TV also produces over 14 and a half
hours per week of local programming, bringing its viewers coverage of local
news, weather and other matters of community interest. Its contribution and
value to the community as the local broadcaster will be challenged by the
distribution of CIVT in its broadcast area.
7529 Our four stations represent four independent local news voices in our
communities. In an era of consolidation of media we urge you to preserve these
distinct, local voices.
7530 Examples of community service we provide include:
1. CFJC-TV Kamloops, leading a campaign in 2000 to raise $9.3 million in
support of Royal Inland Hospital;
2. The Terrace station, CFTK-TV, produced the CAB Gold Ribbon Award Program
"Carving the Future," a chronicle of 30 years of local coverage of that
nationally important negotiation of the Nishga Treaty in northeastern B.C.
Absent the local coverage over the past 30 years in Terrace, this program could
not have been created; and
3. In Prince George, CKPG-TV's news team kept the community aware of the
health risk of the oil spill last year near Chetwynd, Br.C. and its impact on
local water supply.
7531 Community service, local programming of local, regional and national
relevance and key emergency news coverage in our communities are irreplaceable
benefits to the Canadian Broadcasting System, which are put at risk by this
application.
7532 In Public Notices CRTC 1985-61 and 1993-74, the Commission outlined the
criteria that guides its assessments of applications for the cable distribution
of distant Canadian signals. One criterion is "the degree of the distant
signal's potential impact on the revenue base of the local broadcasters and of
their ability to meet their programming commitments." The distribution of CIVT
as a distant signal in our local markets will result in a significant loss of
audience and advertising revenues to our stations.
7533 Dealing firstly with local advertising revenue, as a result of audience
fragmentation, there has been a continuing trend toward reduced local
advertising revenue being available for secondary market television stations.
This has been a result of the addition of a significant number of primarily
eastern-based specialty channels, which compete for audience and advertising
revenue. Another cause of audience fragmentation has been the penetration of DTH
services which do not carry the local television stations.
7534 The addition of the CTV signal out of Vancouver into these markets will
further fragment the audience available to the local television stations,
thereby decreasing our reach, which in turn will reduce the value of advertising
on these local services. The decreased value of the local television stations'
advertising inventory will cause local advertisers to choose not to use local
television as a media for advertising. This negative impact will be significant
and will only be mitigated by any cover over agreement that CIVT may enter into
with the local television stations.
7535 Turning to national advertising, approximately 50 per cent of all
national advertising revenue obtained by the local television stations is
regional in nature. By "regional in nature" we mean advertising which takes
advertising dollars out of a local community and applies them to a province-wide
purchase of advertising.
7536 An example would be a McDonald's francishee who provides advertising
revenue to the franchisor on a commitment that a certain percentage of that
advertising money will be spent in the local market of the McDonald's
francishee. A sample list of this category of advertisers is attached as
Schedule A.
7537 These advertisers represent far more than the estimated $150,000 impact
identified by CTV last Wednesday. Approval of the CIVT application will enable
CIVT to pursue advertising monies previously available only to local television
stations as a result of existing arrangements. The loss of any part of that
revenue, which approximates 50 per cent of the national advertising revenue of
those stations, will cause material economic harm to the Intervenors.
7538 In their appearance before the Commission last Wednesday, CTV indicated
they felt they were "just another signal coming into the market," similar to the
50 new services recently licensed by the Commission. What is different is that
this station will specifically target and deliver the province of British
Columbia and take advertising revenue previously relied on by the local
television stations.
7539 Historically, the situation of a Vancouver station seeking to enter
secondary markets in B.C. has been dealt with either by the imposition of a
condition of licence or the negotiation of a commercial arrangement with the
major market licensee. In the CHAN-TV situation, a commercial arrangement was
negotiated and became a longstanding condition of licence of CHAN-TV. That
approach, which we regard as balanced and responsible, has ensured the
protection of the local television stations.
7540 In the case of the CBC, the CBC and the local television stations were
able to arrive at a commercial arrangement to solve their regional sales
differences outside of regulatory intervention.
7541 The arrangements with CHAN-TV and the CBC recognized that the secondary
market stations serve an important role in their respective communities by
providing programming that is relevant and reflective of the residents of such
communities. Both broadcasters make economic commitments to support local
broadcasting. CTV should be obligated by the Commission to do the same.
7542 As set out in our written intervention, the difficulty that CIVT is
facing is largely the creation of its parent company. The Commission is faced
with the difficulty of secondary market cable operators indicating that in order
to remain competitive with DTH service providers such as ExpressVu owned by Bell
Globemedia, it too needs access to the Bell-owned service of CIVT to avoid loss
of local subscribers.
7543 We can empathize with those local cable operators. In Dawson Creek, for
example, DTH penetration is apparently at 32 per cent. The loss of that 32 per
cent of audience has clearly affected the local television stations as well as
they are unavailable to the audience which has moved to DTH services.
7544 As a starting point to achieving a level playing field, it is submitted
that the Commission should order that local television stations be provided, at
Bell's cost, with access to its DTH services. It appears that Bell is now saying
that as it has caused a significant impact on local cable operators by making
available its Vancouver television station on its DTH service, the Commission
should also now allow its distant Vancouver station access to local cable.
7545 At the end of the day, the local television broadcaster becomes the
"meat in the sandwich," as they are seeing their audience fragmented by the
existence of an out-of-market service offering no local programming
contribution. On the DTH side, they are seeing their audience lost as
subscribers turn to Bell-owned DTH services which do not carry the local
television stations.
7546 If Bell Globemedia wishes access to local markets for the purpose of
selling its DTH service and allowing its Bell-owned out-of-market television
signal universal distribution to the detriment of local television operators, it
should, at a minimum, be obligated to ensure that commercial viability of the
local television operation is sustained by making the local service available on
the DTH service.
7547 CTV submits that approval of its application will further the objectives
of the Broadcasting Act by encouraging the presentation of Canadian programming
and providing viewers with a greater variety of programming.
7548 While the creation and presentation of Canadian programming is certainly
an objective of Canadian broadcast policy, it is submitted that precedence
should be accorded to the presentation of local Canadian programming over
national Canadian programming. Given the preponderance of licensing of national
specialty services and the consolidation of ownership of television in Central
Canada, it is submitted that it is inconsistent with the objectives of the
Broadcasting Act to this further step to further devalue the local television
stations in British Columbia by approval of this application.
7549 The Commission should encourage commercial arrangements that preserve
the balance between the maintenance of local television service and the
objectives of national program providers. We believe the Commission should
direct CTV to negotiate with the secondary market stations the opportunity to
deliver its signals to the secondary markets on conditions which are
commercially viable for the local television stations. This is what the
Commission directed CHAN-TV to do 30 years ago, and the issue is even more
pressing today.
7550 As Commissioner Grauer discussed with CTV on Wednesday, CanWest made a
proposal to work with CTV as reflected in paragraph 47 of Commission Decision
CRTC 2000-221 in relation to access to interior markets. Neither that offer nor
any negotiation with us has been pursued by CTV in any significant manner since
that direction was given last July.
7551 In conclusion, the intervenors wish to unequivocally state that approval
of the application as filed will result in the loss of local television service
for the communities of Kamloops, Prince George, Terrace and Dawson Creek,
British Columbia, and therefore, the Commission should deny the application and
direct CTV to work with the local television stations to negotiate an acceptable
solution which preserves the existence of a local television service in our
communities.
7552 Thank you very much.
7553 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Arnish. You noted that Commissioner
Grauer discussed the issue with the applicants and she is going to discuss it
with you this morning as well.
7554 Commissioner Grauer.
7555 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you.
7556 Good morning, gentlemen. As you are aware, we have actually discussed
and canvassed this issue fairly extensively with CTV, both on Wednesday and
again on Friday. As you note in your oral presentation this morning, when we
noted in the decision last year approving the WIC transaction, the offer of
CanWest that was extended to CTV to make the transmitters available, we also
talked about the importance -- I think we did -- certainly of the CTV service
being available throughout British Columbia.
7557 I am just wondering if you have come up with any specific -- you
mentioned commercial arrangements. Again on Friday, CTV indicated a willingness
to enter into some commercial arrangements, and I am wondering if you can give
me your comments on that and on what commercial arrangements you think might be
feasible?
7558 MR. ARNISH: Well, as you noted, Commissioner Grauer, in our written
intervention and this morning's oral intervention, we are certainly very
concerned about the future viability of our television stations in the interior
of British Columbia. It is nice to hear that CTV now perhaps recognizes our
concerns about what our future might hold if they are granted carte blanche
status to come in via DTH to cable head end and then be distributed throughout
the Province of British Columbia.
7559 The agreement that we talk about in our oral intervention today, and as
the Commission is well aware of, has been in place with CHAN-TV, BCTV in British
Columbia for over 30 years. It has worked extremely well. The parent companies
that owned BCTV over the last 30 years, and there has been a few of them, have
spent considerable amounts of money putting in rebroadcasting transmitters
throughout the Province of B.C. and have maintained those broadcasters --
rebroadcasting transmitters for that same period of time.
7560 Through that arrangement, we have had a good opportunity to work with
BCTV, with the commercial arrangement that basically protects our interests in
the interior to be able to sell again, cover over lower mainland commercials and
regional advertising commercials as well and sell them in our marketplace to
continue to provide good local programming in all of these markets that we talk
about today.
7561 I would also say the same could be said of the Okanagan Valley as well.
CHBC Television is the other independent CBC affiliate in the interior but, of
course, isn't appearing with us here today because of their ownership with
Global.
7562 But we certainly are very open to CTV talking to us, coming up with a
solution that at the very minimum mirrors the BCTV agreement that has been in
place for the last 30 years and will continue on in our opinion for as long as
we are in this business and beyond that.
7563 Some of my other colleagues may have some other comments on that.
7564 MR. WEAFER: Commissioner Grauer, we have negotiated amongst ourselves as
to what we think CTV could do, we just haven't negotiated with CTV. But there is
a list of say five possible areas of negotiations. One, as Rick identified in
his oral presentation, is DTH carriage of the local television stations. They
have the ability within their corporate group to try and facilitate that.
7565 The Dawson Creek television station, 32 per cent of its audience is lost
to DTH because it is not on DHT in its market and DTH has 32 per cent
penetration. A cash payment to the local stations on an annual basis, which is
similar to the initial CHAN ARRANGEMENT, in which there was a revenue payment to
the local stations to allow CHAN into the market in the 1970s. That is something
we could negotiate.
7566 A cover-over arrangement, as Rick has mentioned, either by the
Commission directing that CTV do as CHAN did 30 years ago, building a system of
rebroadcasters throughout the province -- CHAN incurred that commercial expense
in order to have the right to be in the market.
7567 Alternatively, if they wish to negotiate, there may be a way of
distributing the signal by delivery to the local television stations, who would
insert the local commercials and deliver the program to the cable system for
distribution.
7568 So there is a variety of ways to do it. We are not saying that we are
standing in the way of CTV coming into the market. We understand the pressure
that the Commission is under to make sure that that occurs, but they have to
come to the table. They may have better ideas than we have, but there has been
no discussion at this point, and there has been plenty of time to come to the
table.
7569 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I was just going to say that certainly timing is an
issue at this point. It is getting a little late in the day with the September 1
changeover.
7570 MR. WEAFER: On that point, Commissioner Grauer, we don't see that as the
local television station's problem, and in fact we don't see that as the
Commission's problem. That is their problem. And if we can't make September 1,
so be it. They can go on October 1, November 1. It is not the local market's
problem. They have created the timing issue, not the Commission, not the local
broadcasters.
7571 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: That may be so, but it is the Commission's problem
to the extent that it is important perhaps that people in British Columbia get
the signal, and I think that we need to be sensitive to the viewers who have
been accustomed to getting CTV programming and will find it perhaps gone from
their screens on September 1.
7572 I raise it in that we have to be mindful of that piece.
7573 MR. WEAFER: We are willing to sit down with CTV today.
7574 MR. ARNISH: Commissioner Grauer, I could also reiterate as well -- and I
can't speak for all of the markets, but certainly CIBT currently is available,
or will be available, on the digital service of Shaw Cable in the interior of
British Columbia as well.
7575 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: So it will be available on digital, notwithstanding
this application for --
7576 MR. ARNISH: That's correct. That is my understanding, yes.
7577 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: You are of the view that there is sufficient time
to negotiate the commercial arrangements that may or may not require a system of
transmitters?
7578 MR. ARNISH: I think that all of us here would agree with that.
7579 It is really unfortunate that we have to be here today in front of the
Commission, in my own personal opinion, discussing this issue. As a matter of
fact, if I go back almost a year and a half or two years ago with former
management of CIBT in Vancouver, when there was talk then of the CTV affiliation
moving to CIBT, I had discussions with them, saying that we would be very
interested at the end of the day -- very much so -- of looking at a triple stick
operation, in a sense, where we in Kamloops and the other markets would have CBC
and perhaps CTV affiliation, and then also have our agreement with BCTV as
well.
7580 But now we have come down to the 11th hour, and here we are four months
away from September 1, basically, and CTV wants to bring the signal into the
interior.
7581 And as Mr. Weafer just said, we don't want to deny that CTV does very
good programming across the country. We know that. They do regional programming
as well. But we would have to, certainly, protect our own local interests, and
we believe that there probably is a solution to getting them on the air by the
1st of September, and it may not be through rebroadcasting transmitters.
7582 Just for the Commission's edification, not only has BCTV spent millions
of dollars over the last 30 or 35 years with rebroadcasting transmitters, so
have we. All of us in the interior have rebroadcasting transmitters all over the
place in small communities, and we don't think it is right that CTV bring in a
regional service from Vancouver without putting in rebroadcasting
transmitters.
7583 But if that is not going to work, then I think there are probably some
other technical solutions that we can draw that can allow them to get on the air
by the 1st of September, or sometime shortly thereafter, as long as our
interests are protected.
7584 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: CTV tabled with us, and I think made available to
the intervenors, some revenue projections and impacts, and I wonder if you have
any comments on those figures.
7585 MR. ARNISH: As Mr. St-Laurent is getting out some information, speaking
on behalf of our panel this morning, we don't agree with their impact analysis.
We don't believe the numbers they are talking about at all reflect what serious
damage they will do to our stations in the interior of British Columbia.
7586 Talking about northern Ontario -- and no disrespect to northern Ontario
-- it is a vastly different area than the interior of the province of British
Columbia, and Mr. St-Laurent can address more of those issues.
7587 MR. ST-LAURENT: If we understand their spreadsheet correctly, they are
projecting a maximum -- or a 5 per cent impact on our national revenue. We would
lose that in the first month, possibly the first six weeks. This is very
conservative.
7588 We are estimating, instead, that our stations would lose at minimum,
very conservatively, $575,000 per year.
7589 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you.
7590 I have one more question, and it relates to making sure that I really
understand exactly how this arrangement works.
7591 You have listed some examples -- a lengthy list of examples -- of what
would constitute regional broadcasters, and as I understand it, these are
franchisees, for the most part, who make contributions into a fund for regional
advertising on the basis that the advertising is made available to the
communities in which they do business.
7592 Is that correct?
7593 MR. WEAFER: That is part of the historic way the accounts have been
identified.
7594 I think the better description, as Mr. Arnish described in --
7595 Firstly, just to step back, we filed a copy of the agreement -- the 1970
agreement -- between the stations, and there are two definitions in that
agreement, one which says that all that they sell is national. If you look at
the agreement, that is what they are restricted to.
7596 Secondly, it talks of accounts that have a storefront in the local
market, or a retail account.
7597 There has certainly been a practice of interpreting that agreement,
which has ebbed and flowed over the 30 years, as the nature of advertising has
shifted; and certainly, in negotiating an agreement with CTV, we would need to
make it a more current agreement to truly identify those accounts that are a
product where the money is coming out of the local market and, therefore, the
advertising revenue should go back into the local market to support local
programming.
7598 The debate revolves around what is regional. We had that debate with the
CBC a few years ago and we successfully negotiated a resolve to that.
7599 So without trying to pin down exactly what that is with you,
Commissioner Grauer, we think we can do that in a negotiation with CTV.
7600 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: My question is, for instance, if it is a McDonald's
franchise, is that ad resold by your station, or is there a buy made in
Vancouver with pooled money which is then somehow shared?
7601 This has eluded me, to a certain extent; where the line is.
7602 MR. ST-LAURENT: There are national programs and there are local
programs. It is not resold, it is sold for the first time at the local level.
However, there are national programs from time to time.
7603 MR. ARNISH: We look at regional accounts, too, being -- regional retail
accounts --
7604 It has to be a storefront, in a sense. Imperial Oil or Esso, accounts
like that, would be national in nature, obviously, but if they have a storefront
operation in our communities, then that, to us, is a regional account.
7605 That is probably a simplistic way of defining it.
7606 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Storefront like what?
7607 MR. ARNISH: It could be like McDonald's, or it could be A&W, or it
could be Moore's clothing, for example -- any of those. We have a whole list. We
can go down the list, and we have Dairy Queen and tire stores, Home Hardware,
Home Depot -- accounts like that.
7608 MR. WEAFER: Commissioner Grauer, I just want to point out that, clearly,
the agreement is something that has, much as I said, a history as an ability to
say specifically to you what accounts they are.
7609 I think there is another point that we need to point out, which is a
weakness in CTV's estimate of revenue loss, wherein they point out in their
document that on the CTV network there is no commercial deletion. That is
incorrect. CHAN does make avails available to the local market after the network
programming of CTV, and that has been an important source of revenue to the
local broadcaster as well.
7610 So simply because it is national network programming, the local market
station has had the ability to insert and sell its own commercials.
7611 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: All right. I think I just have one more thing.
7612 In principle, is what we are dealing with here spill?
7613 MR. ARNISH: As far as allowing CIBT to come into our marketplace without
having an agreement?
7614 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Right.
7615 MR. ARNISH: Yes, I would say that.
7616 David, would you agree with that?
7617 MR. ST-LAURENT: I would certainly agree.
7618 MR. ARNISH: I would say this, Commissioner Grauer: If CIBT is allowed to
come into our marketplace without any agreement being in place or being forced
to put in rebroadcasting transmitters, as well, and do a parallel deal with us
that we have similar to the BCTV agreement, they will simply sell the interior
as spill.
7619 I don't think there is any guarantee, for a moment, that they are going
to recoup any of their -- they would not at all recoup any of their network
revenue losses that they suggest they are going to lose because of the
programming leaving BCTV and moving over to CIBT. They will simply sell the
interior spill.
7620 I would say that if that agreement happens, or if we didn't have an
agreement and they were allowed to come into the interior the way they want to
today, I think that CHAN would be back to the Commission asking for that
condition of licence with our long-term agreement being in place -- to be
relieved of that condition of licence.
7621 They would then sell the interior spill as well. They would certainly
get -- I guess you could look at it as spill or bonus, or whatever the case may
be.
7622 Then I would suggest to the Commission, as well, that you have the same
opportunity then for BCTV or Global to apply to bring in CHEK-TV, and then you
are going to have CHUM wanting to bring in Victoria, and maybe the new station,
CKBU in Vancouver, if you approve their application that is going to be coming
before you, and I guess you could say that of perhaps the new ethnic station in
Vancouver as well.
7623 Where does that put our companies at the end of the day?
7624 In the scheme of things, we are peanuts in the broadcasting industry
when it comes to national and regional revenue, and I guess local revenue, for
that matter.
7625 But we are here today in front of you because we care about our
stations, we care about our people, we care about our families. We are here
today because if the Commission doesn't mandate something that will allow us to
continue to survive if we don't have an agreement in place, we are out of
business.
7626 And we are not blowing hot air here, even though we are from British
Columbia, one of the red neck provinces in Canada. We are here because we are
going to be put out of business at the end of the day.
7627 The Commission knows with our returns that our revenue is diminishing
year over year over year, and it is being exacerbated year after year as well
by, again, more choice -- and we don't deny that the consumer should have more
choice as well. But with more specialty channels, more pay-per-view channels and
so on and so forth happening -- more competition -- our audiences are being
fragmented, daily almost, and that is fragmenting our revenue.
7628 This, again, certainly has the position to put us out of business at the
end of the day.
7629 We are here because we care about our television stations, and we care
about the community. I think our record speaks for itself: we provide a vital
local service to our communities.
7630 It is interesting; we have watched the hearing over the last week as
well, and there has been great dialogue here, which I think is fantastic,
because we are getting into dialogue with all of the consolidation going on in
the industry as to what is the future of the television industry in Canada. Are
we going to have two, three or four voices speaking for the rest of Canada?
7631 I don't think that is right. I don't think we should. I think we need to
have much more diversity in voices, and we need to have the local broadcasters
being there to reflect their community. That is in the best public interest.
7632 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you, Mr. Arnish.
7633 Do you want to --
7634 MR. McKINNON: From our standpoint, too -- and I have worked in small
markets all of my life -- this is really about creating a level playing field
for the small broadcasters, and it still won't be level. This just gives us an
opportunity, at least, to go forward and try to compete with them and provide
the local services.
7635 We are the ones on the street that, when we have to cut our local
service, we take all of the flak. We don't want to cut local service; we want to
increase the local service because that will also help us. But if we have other
spill and other things coming into the marketplace, it will eventually erode and
all of a sudden the regional account will just blend in to be a national
account. There will be no defining lines and we will lose the small local
television stations, which are fortunate enough in those markets. We don't see a
lot of people putting applications out for new small television stations. These
markets are fortunate to have them, and we would like to be able to maintain
them.
7636 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you.
7637 I know you have all come a long way. I don't know if you have any sort
of last words.
7638 MR. ARNISH: I just have a couple of comments, and my other colleagues
may as well. Just to tag on to Mr. McKinnon's comment, you know, even at the end
of the day if the Commission -- and we do hope that the Commission does hear us
and will say to CTV, "As a condition of licence you have to have an agreement
with the B.C. interior stations", and if we do, we are still going to lose
though.
7639 Just because we have an agreement in place with BCTV and CIBT, at the
end of the day we are still going to lose because we are going to have another
service coming into our marketplace and they are going to be able to sell
national advertising, pure national advertising, which is going to impact our
stations as well. So even though we have an agreement we are still going to lose
at the end of the day.
7640 With that we have to run a profitable business. We are not in the
business to lose money and that's going to cut into our local programming.
That's going to cut into our staffing levels and that's something that we, as a
group of interior television stations, readily recognize. And I would say that
of our compatriots at CHBC-TV in Kelowna as well. They do 17.5 or 18.5 hours of
local programming, we do 14.5 in Kamloops, for example, but if we don't
have an agreement in place, they are going to have to cut their programming, I
believe as well.
7641 I can't speak for their parent company, but if I was to look at them as
a stand-alone television station, they are going to have to look at cutting
programming and staffing as well, and that to us is not correct.
7642 But I would say in just a couple of closing comments, Commissioner, that
we hope the Commission will take the step to preserve the existence of our four
television stations in the interior of British Columbia by one, requiring Bell
to put our local stations on their DTH service so we can access viewers in our
local market, and two, direct CTV to negotiate with us to arrive at an
arrangement which will preserve the viability of our local television stations.
Absent disagreement, CIBT should not be permitted to enter the markets, and
three, confirm that CHAN-TV will continue to honour their condition of licence
consistent with what we negotiate with CTV.
7643 We thank you very much for your time.
7644 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before you go, Vice-Chair Wylie has a question or
two.
7645 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Mr. Arnish, both in your presentation this morning
and then your intervention before, I believe, you make the domino-effect point.
If you allow this, the CHUM station will be allowed in and even stations that
have not been licensed yet such as a multilingual station will be allowed in,
and so on.
7646 Do you not see a difference between allowing CTV in the interior of
British Columbia since it was there before and it is the private network,
without necessarily the Commission allowing all these stations to also be
carried on the same terms.
7647 There seems to be no faith in the judgement of the Commission and not
allowing this domino effect, and therefore I would ask you what is your view
about the CTV situation separate from this fear that then everything will be
allowed in B.C. to your disadvantage. I understand your concern, but I'm a
little puzzled about mixing in this domino effect that then everybody will be
allowed in on conditions that are not equitable.
7648 MR. WEAFER: Mr. Arnish asked if I would answer the question,
Commissioner Wylie, because I think where we say the domino effect, it is really
if CTV comes in without any commercial arrangements struck with the interior
market broadcasters. If we can continue with the precedent struck with CHAN,
which is effectively to give the local television station the franchise of the
market, and allow others in perhaps we can make it work. It's licensing VTV
without any agreement with the local market broadcasters which will create the
precedent which will definitely devastate the local market stations. If one is
in without condition, the others will certainly wish the same result.
7649 If you can mandate that we strike a commercial agreement with CTV, if
others apply we would again be back to you making the same point.
7650 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: But you have no faith in others being differentiated
by the Commission from the desire to have CTV available everywhere. Let's say
there is an agreement, it's not to your satisfaction or it's not exactly what
you want. You seem to be convinced that then the whole thing will fall apart and
there will be more and more stations allowed in without --
7651 MR. WEAFER: To be frank, I think it will just take one to cause the
impact that has been brought to the table. The others, by the time they get in,
it may not be an issue.
7652 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: So it's not really as important -- the domino effect
is not as important as --
7653 MR. ARNISH: But it could happen though and you and I, Commissioner, had
this discussion a year ago on the LOOK application, and I think we were betting
$50 bills at the time whether we would be back to you at some point in time with
this very scenario. And here we are just a year and a half later back talking
about a scenario that is relevant today that I talked about during the LOOK
application as well, that the stations in Vancouver would love to get the
interior market. There is a million plus people in the interior of British
Columbia that they would like to try to go and sell to national and regional
advertisers.
7654 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: But I thought that in fact the application for MDS
was one that was responsive to your concern.
7655 MR. ARNISH: It was very responsive and one we very much appreciate.
7656 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: And that was the one that was licensed.
7657 MR. ARNISH: It was Sky Cable that was licensed, that's correct.
7658 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Yes. So we did it right.
7659 MR. ARNISH: You did. Thank you.
7660 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Thank you.
7661 THE CHAIRPERSON: So who won the bet?
--- Laughter / Rires
7662 MR. ARNISH: I haven't paid yet.
7663 THE CHAIRPERSON: I just have a question. When you refer to the
fragmentation from DTH, do you have any sense how much of that fragmentation has
gone to ExpressVu and how much has gone to StarChoice?
7664 MR. WEAFER: No, we have the numbers for movement to DTH period, but not
between the two different services.
7665 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have only addressed the issue of some sort of
arrangement with ExpressVu. Is that simply because it's the same owner as the
television station involved here?
7666 MR. WEAFER: That's the application before the Commission, so clearly
there is a company you could deal with right now.
7667 We certainly would -- we feel quite confident that if the local station
was on one of the DTH service providers, that the other would want to match the
product. Mr. Arnish's news program in Kamloops draws a 40 share. It's a pretty
attractive service and we would hope that the other DTH provider would -- by all
means, we would ask you to order both, but today we are dealing with Bell.
7668 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, thank you very much, gentlemen. We appreciate
your being here this morning.
7669 MR. ARNISH: Thank you.
7670 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will take our morning break now, and I guess, Mr.
Secretary, after the break we will commence the teleconference.
7671 MR. CUSSONS: Yes, sir, that's our plan.
7672 THE CHAIRPERSON: Let's hope it works.
7673 We will take our break for 20 minutes.
--- Upon recessing at 1050 / Suspension à 1050
--- Upon resuming at 1300 / Reprise à 1300
7674 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome back
to our proceeding.
7675 First, I should apologize for the rather lengthy lunch break that we had
today. We were having some technical difficulties with our teleconferencing
facilities.
7676 I suppose one might wonder the regulator responsible for regulating
telecommunications in this country might have a better facility to make sure
that this sort of thing works. In any event, we did have a few technical
problems. We think they are overcome now, and the plan for the afternoon then is
to hear about 30 some odd telephone intervenors via the telephone.
7677 As I indicated this morning, there are a number of them, and we want to
make sure we have an opportunity to hear everybody. So if we don't ask questions
of an intervenor it's not because we are not interested. We certainly value the
interventions, particularly those from across the country in addition to the
ones we have been able to hear here in the room.
7678 So if we are not asking questions, it's simply because your intervention
is very clear and understandable and we want to give everybody an opportunity to
be heard.
7679 So with that, Mr. Secretary, I will turn it over to you and hopefully
this will work.
7680 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7681 I would like to introduce our first intervenor via teleconference, Mr.
Phil Currie.
7682 Mr. Currie, are you there? Mr. Currie? Mr. Phil Currie, Atlantic
University Sport?
7683 MR. CURRIE: That's correct.
7684 MR. CUSSONS: Sir, can you hear me?
7685 MR. CURRIE: Yes, I can hear you.
7686 MR. CUSSONS: We would like to welcome you to the CRTC public hearing,
sir.
7687 MR. CURRIE: My pleasure to be there.
7688 MR. CUSSONS: And we are eager to hear your presentation.
7689 Please start now.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
7690 MR. CURRIE: My name is Phil Currie. I'm the Executive Director of
Atlantic University Sport based out of Halifax, Nova Scotia. I represent 11
universities in Atlantic Canada and our sporting endeavours here related to
university sport.
7691 We do host three major championships here in Atlantic Canada of which
CJCH TV or ATV-CTV are partners and have been for approximately three years.
7692 Their support has been responsible and outstanding in reference to
assisting us in our growth not only of the events, but of Atlantic University
Sport and in general university sport in Atlantic Canada.
7693 I would just like to offer my support of their licence to the CRTC and
the continuing of that licence as their support over the years has helped us
grow and will, I am sure, in the future through our partnership with group
continue to allow us to grow university sport in Atlantic Canada. I think that
the community fosters that relationship as well.
7694 That would basically be about it in reference to what I have to say
today. I just think it's important to have a voice and to share that with you
people in reference to that application.
7695 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Currie.
7696 It's David Colville, the Chairman of this panel in the Commission, and
we thank you for your intervention today.
7697 MR. CURRIE: David, I thank you for the opportunity. I appreciate
that.
7698 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thanks.
7699 MR. CURRIE: Okay.
7700 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary.
7701 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7702 I would now like to introduce Dr. Peggy Watts.
7703 Doctor Watts, are you there? Dr. Watts, Dr. Peggy Watts?
7704 DR. WATTS: Yes, hello?
7705 MR. CUSSONS: Hello. I'm Peter Cussons, Secretary and Manager of the CRTC
public hearing.
7706 DR. WATTS: It's a pleasure to have you with us this afternoon.
7707 DR. WATTS: Thank you very much.
7708 MR. CURRIE: And I understand that you are replacing Dr. Chris Beckett
who unfortunately suffered a loss in his family.
7709 DR. WATTS: Yes, that's right. Unfortunately, he has gone to England.
7710 MR. CUSSONS: Please convey our condolences to him and we would be
pleased to hear your presentation, Dr. Watts.
7711 DR. WATTS: Okay. Are you ready for me now?
7712 MR. CUSSONS: Yes, Madam.
7713 DR. WATTS: Okay.
7714 I would like to thank you, first of all, for the opportunity to provide
our comments from Mount St. Vincent University with regard to our partnership
with the Atlantic Satellite Network and their contribution to post-secondary
education.
7715 MR. CUSSONS: Sorry, Dr. Watts.
7716 Can I ask you to just hold for one second? There is a small glitch here
we are just trying to sort out with the sound.
7717 Just one second, please.
7718 DR. WATTS: Sure.
7719 THE CHAIRPERSON: We can hear you -- this is David Colville -- we
can hear you in the room, but our court reporter is not getting the sound
through to get it on the transcript.
7720 DR. WATTS: Oh, I see.
7721 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm just hoping fixing his problem doesn't make another
problem for us.
7722 DR. WATTS: Right.
7723 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to be reading from a prepared text?
7724 DR. WATTS: Well, I have some notes that I will read from, yes.
7725 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
7726 DR. WATTS: I won't be reading the whole speech though.
7727 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, I was just thinking if it was a prepared text you
could fax it to us for transcript purposes.
7728 DR. WATTS: Yes, I can provide you with a copy of my notes.
--- Pause
7729 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. We will go ahead, Doctor, if you can perhaps
commence your presentation again.
7730 DR. WATTS: Okay. I would just like to thank you once again for giving me
the opportunity to speak on behalf of Mount Saint Vincent University in support
of the effort of satellite network and contributions to post secondary education
particularly.
7731 I should point out that I'm speaking as Director of Distance Learning
and (Technical difficulties /Difficultés techniques).
7732 A bit of background. You are probably aware that Mount Saint Vincent
University primarily do credit courses, but also non-degree courses in foreign
languages, two adult learning (Technical difficulties / Difficultés techniques)
for over 20 years. As a result of that (Technical difficulties / Difficultés
techniques) broadcasting courses on the FM.
7733 Recently we have added online delivery, but television broadcasting
media is very popular. In fact, in the current year, beginning say last June
(Technical difficulties / Difficultés techniques) Since March we have attracted
over 5,300 course registrations through the televised courses, so you can see
that that is a very big part of our delivery of distance education.
7734 Since the early 1980s when we began to deliver distance education
(Technical difficulties / Difficultés techniques) Department of Educational
Broadcasting allowing them to be staffed with people throughout the Atlantic
Region of Canada. (Technical difficulties / Difficultés techniques) is now more
than 20 hours per week broadcast time available to the university at no charge
and thus ASN played a major education role in the Atlantic region.
7735 I would like to point out two ways that are important to us in terms of
the contribution that ASN is making to education (Technical difficulties /
Difficultés techniques)
7736 First of all, ASN has been very active through the (Technical
difficulties / Difficultés techniques) education acceptable to those who would
not otherwise be able to (Technical difficulties / Difficultés techniques)
geographically in family responsibilities as former (Technical difficulties /
Difficultés techniques) or health needs.
7737 As you know, our economic development is a priority in this region in
particular and education is (Technical difficulties / Difficultés techniques)
people appreciate their lives and prepare to play strong roles in various
economies.
7738 Secondly, I would like to point out that the American canvass only
university educated dedicated primarily although not exclusively to the
education of women and for many women in the Atlantic provinces, television is
the only feasible medium for business course delivery because it is the most
acceptable and the most affordable.
7739 ASN's contribution to broadcast time for the (Technical difficulties /
Difficultés techniques) women's access process in education.
7740 Over the past 20 years Mount Saint Vincent University has become a
leading provider of distance education in this region and I would like to
emphasize that we could not have reached this status nor achieved our goals of
accessibility and service to women learners without the technical assistance and
the broadcast resources of ASN.
7741 Thank you for the opportunity to make these comments.
7742 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Doctor. We appreciate you taking the time to
outline the educational programming on ASN.
7743 DR. WATTS: Thank you very much.
7744 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks a lot.
7745 DR. WATTS: Goodbye.
7746 THE CHAIRPERSON: Goodbye.
7747 Mr. Secretary.
7748 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7749 I understand our next intervenor is Mr. Michael Doody, The Easter Seal
Telethon.
7750 Mr. Doody. Mr. Doody. Mr. Doody. Mr. Michael Doody.
7751 MR. DOODY: Good afternoon, sir.
7752 MR. CUSSONS: Good afternoon, Mr. Doody.
7753 MR. DOODY: Good afternoon to you.
7754 MR. CUSSONS: It's nice to have you with us at the CRTC hearing. Please
proceed with your presentation.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
7819 MR. CLARK: All right then.
7820 I'm pleased to intervene in the matter of the CTV license renewals
specifically on the topic of media access and in particular audio description.
Let me give you some background about myself.
7821 I go back over 20 years in the field of media access. Back when I was a
teenager I started watching caption television, this was well before
closed-captioning was invented, and I have stuck with it ever since.
7822 I have written over a dozen articles on captioning and audio
description. I was a working journalist for ten years with over 390 published
articles. Gave an early paper back in 1989 about captioning requirements for
high definition television. I briefed a Parliamentary sub-committee on the
Broadcasting Act, which now regulates the CRTC as a matter of fact. I run the
media access mailing list on the internet, which you can find if you go on line
at joeclark.org/access. Many of my links are available there.
7823 I have signed a contract with New Riders Publishing, and I am writing a
book on the topic of web accessibility, to be called "Building Accessible
Websites," and that is coming out in October 2001. I have sufficient renown or
infamy that a journalist is writing a profile on me for the Atlantic Monthly, to
be called, "The King of Closed Captions," and that is scheduled for the July
2001 issue.
7824 If there is anyone in Canada who knows more about accessible media, I
haven't met that person.
7825 Now, I have got a couple of things to say about the topic of audio
description in general. First I would like to commend CTV for having the guts to
be the first Canadian broadcaster to actually commit to do some audio
description. I should really credit BCE because the first inkling we had that
there would be some commit to real audio description was with the category 1
digital speciality channels, Réseau Info Sport and the Women's Sport Network
which are now BCE properties committed to a hundred hours a year, I believe, of
audio descriptions.
7826 So we knew that good things were coming down the pipe. There was also
the two million dollar contribution to Audiovision Canada which gives them the
base funding for five years.
7827 So I am actually pleased to see that CTV has committed to, in the
fullness of time by their end of their license term, two new hours of Canadian
described programming a week and two hours of repeats. That should actually be
upgraded to four new hours of Canadian programming. It should be on a par with
the Americans. It is a bit of chintzy, I think, to put through your license
commitments for accessibility through the back door of repeats.
7828 Now, let's talk about audio description in general.
7829 First, a very important procedural note. The CRTC broadcasters and
intervenors have been making a serious mistake for the last two years in
consistently referring to audio description as descriptive video service or
descriptive video. Those are not generic terms. The descriptive video service is
a unit of the WGBH Educational Foundation. They do audio description through
offices in Boston and Los Angeles. Descriptive video service and DVS are
registered service marks of the WGBH Educational Foundation.
7830 You have no more right to refer to audio description in general has DVS
or descriptive video, than you do to refer to tissues as Kleenex. Everyone may
do it. The fact remains that in this particular issue DVS may have become
synonymous with audio description because they do more of it than anyone else in
the world, but DVS and descriptive video are not generic terms per se.
7831 So it's important for the Commission and the Commission broadcasters and
all intervenors to start referring to audio description by its true generic
term, which is audio description.
7832 Now, the FCC has unfortunately muddied the waters a bit by introducing
the term video description into the legislative record in the United States. We
have to live with that synonym now being on the books, but it is not the case
that DVS and descriptive video or descriptive video service are generic terms
for audio description. So from this point forward, now that the CRTC really
knows that they have been doing something wrong, I hope that all future
documents and discussions can refer to audio description and not DVS or
descriptive video programming.
7833 Moving right along, I wonder -- it strikes me as odd that after nearly
20 years of closed captioning, the CTRC seems so eager to recapitulate the
mistakes it made with the introduction of closed captioning, now with the
introduction of audio description. The Commission seems to be treating audio
description as some kind of new technological or medical breakthrough that gets
written up in a medical journal, and something we are cautioned that will not
have widespread applicability for five to ten years.
7834 In reality, audio description on North American programming has been a
fixture since 1988 which is when the first tests were run, what would then
become the descriptive video service of WGBH. It's a regular feature of
broadcast television over the air, cable, speciality channels since 1990. It is
very late in the day for the Commission even to pretend that audio description
is a new concept that is only now being applicable to the Canadian broadcasting
system.
7835 In fact, broadcasters in Canada have been remiss for the last ten years
in not providing any substantial amounts of audio described programming. I think
it is incumbent on the CRTC to acknowledge its own failings in this regard.
7836 Now, the Commission is not renowned for being completely up to speed on
popular culture or what is actually on television. I really get the impression
that the CRTC Commissioners and staff don't watch a lot of TV and don't know
what is going on. Certainly we could not possibly have gotten that impression
from the recent Bell ExpressVu porn channel problem.
7837 Now, it would be nice if the Commission could acknowledge that audio
description has been going on every day of the week with no particular problems
for ten years in the United States and that it is coming to the party rather
embarrassingly late about this. Moreover, the Commission blew it in a very
substantial way with the category 1 digital specialty channels licenses. Pretty
much whatever the applicants proposed for captioning and audio description,
both, were particularly rubber-stamped by the Commission.
7838 In fact I spent several weeks going over the commitments for our
broadcasters and the requirements by the CRTC when it comes to captioning and
audio description. I collated all that information and put it into a big table
which is available on my website at joeclark.org/access; you will find the link
there. I found out no matter what the broadcasters proposed for captioning and
audio description it was simply approved.
7839 If, for example, a broadcaster promised to do ten per cent captioning
the first year, that was accepted. If a different broadcaster promised to do a
hundred per cent captioning the first year, that was also accepted. If a
broadcaster pledged to do no audio description whatsoever because they had no
plans, as for example most of the French language broadcasters said, we have no
plans in this area, short and sweet for them, then that was accepted.
7840 If, however, in the two cases mentioned before, the Réseau Info Sport
and Women's Sports Network, the broadcaster did actually have the courage to say
that we would commit to audio scheduling. That too was accepted.
7841 Now, the Commission has not been in the forefront of requiring
accessibility to the broadcasting service. We have heard complaints for years, I
mean since day zero of captioning that accessibility is too expensive. In fact,
in the Broadcasting Act broadcasters are required to provide services for
disabled audiences where funding permits. I'm just paraphrasing the Act. You all
know what it actually says.
7842 Isn't it a funny thing though that broadcasters have consistently said
for almost 20 years that accessibility cost them too much money but they always
managed to find the funds to start new digital specialty channels and new
analogue channels. Isn't it a funny thing that CTV claimed for years that
captioning cost a lot of money, but later they started satellite networks like
the Comedy Network and Outdoor Life Network in which they have a full ownership
or partial.
7843 It's a very strange thing. I mean we get this from all the broadcast
conglomerates in Canada, CHUM Ltd., Chorus, all of them. They will all complain
that some kind of accessibility whether it is captioning or audio description
costs too much money, but they always manage to find the money to put together
even just the applications for dozens of broadcasting channels, which costs
hundreds of thousands of dollars just to complete.
7844 So the claim by broadcasters that it doesn't -- that it costs too much
money to provide accessibility is clearly false. The Commission has been
complicit with broadcasters in perpetuating the lie that accessibility is too
expensive for the Canadian broadcasting system. If that were really true, we
wouldn't have so many dozens of Canadian speciality channels because the
broadcasters wouldn't have been able to afford them. If they can't afford to
make existing television channels accessible, how can they afford to start up
new channels.
7845 Besides it has hardly been stated by what is currently the monopoly
provider of audio description in Canada, Audiovision Canada, that they do
description for about $2,500 per broadcast hour.
7846 Now, if we are doing four original hours a week, that is about $10,000 a
week, which is half a million dollars a year. Now I am sure it cost CTV more
than to schlep 20 people to Ottawa for these hearings. It cost -- I mean the
cost to produce audio description are a drop in the bucket. It's true that the
technical infrastructure costs are substantially more expensive but it is not as
thought a large corporation like CTV owned by an enormous conglomerate like BCE
can't actually afford that expenditure.
7847 Moving right along, it seems that since audio description has been on
North American television since 1988 but we are only now talking about having a
commitment to regularly scheduled audio description in Canada, by the end of the
broadcast term, the license term that we are discussing now for CTV, seven years
from now, that will be about 2008, at that point a whole 20 years will have
passed since the introduction of audio description on Canadian television and
its reasonably widespread use on the regularly scheduled airways in Canada.
7848 Now, if you are a deaf or hard of hearing person who had to wait 20
years for captioning or a blind or visually impaired person who had to wait 20
years for audio description, even though you were paying the same rates for your
cable television and for your specialty channels as everyone else, would you
think that there might be something amiss with this. Can you say lost
generation?
7849 Why is it exactly that -- since we are now getting our act together and
doing much more captioning in Canada, even though the quality -- it just isn't
there at present for pre-recorded programming, we are still expecting blind and
visually impaired people to have waited 20 years since it was introduced on
American television before we get regularly scheduled amounts of audio
description on Canadian TV.
7850 Now, could it possibly be that not only have the Canadian broadcasters
tried to pull the wool over our eyes and claim that they have not been able to
afford audio description or captioning, for that matter, over the last 20 years,
but the CRTC has actually gone along with this and sort of covered it up and
found much more interesting things to talk about it.
7851 Oh, I don't know. I seem to recall the license renewal for Much Music,
what two or three cycles ago, which spent five or six pages discussing whether
the program "Ren and Stimpy" was properly categorized, was a musical program. It
didn't even mention captioning even though I intervened on that specific
topic.
7852 I think the performance of the CRTC is quite poor in this regard given
that it is commendable for CTV to put its money where its mouth is and finally
commit to providing audio description in large measure on Canadian television.
It isn't sufficient. We need more -- we need conditions of license for all
broadcasters from now going forward into the future is make sure that the people
-- that blind and visionally impaired Canadians who are paying the same amount
for television services as non-disabled Canadians at least have access to that
resource.
7853 I would be pleased to answer questions at this point.
7854 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Clark, for your presentation. I don't
think we have any questions, but I would just note, if you have been following
the discussion over last week between the Commission and CTV and Global, that
they have both agreed to move on this issue. I think that the question about too
expensive has been taken off the table and that both groups have agreed to
proceed.
7855 Notwithstanding that, we certainly appreciate your presentation and your
support of us moving on this audio description issue, and we will try to be more
mindful of using the correct term as we go forward.
7856 Thank you for your presentation.
7857 Mr. Secretary?
7858 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7859 Our next intervenor is Ms Maureen Hemphill of the Pro Canada
Committee.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
7860 MR. CUSSONS: Ms Hemphill, are you there?
7861 MS HEMPHILL: I am.
7862 MR. CUSSONS: Please proceed with your presentation, and welcome to our
hearing.
7863 MS HEMPHILL: Thank you very much.
7864 For over a decade the Pro Canada Committee has represented and advocated
for Manitoba's ethnocultural communities. Our present mandate is to examine
Manitoba's broadcasting system to see if ethnic communities are fairly and
adequately represented by Canadian broadcasters.
7865 The CRTC broadcasting policy states that the Canadian broadcasting
system is required to reflect the multicultural and multiracial nature of
Canada, and in particular to provide access for underserved linguistic, cultural
minority communities.
7866 This suggests that we start from a position of underrepresentation of
minority communities, and this is a matter of concern to everyone, particularly
Canadian broadcasters and the CRTC.
7867 Those given the privilege of holding a broadcasting licence are required
to give special attention to these underserved minorities.
7868 Manitoba is the most multicultural province in Canada. Our ethnic
communities account for over one-half of Manitoba's total population.
7869 So the questions we are here to ask today are: Is Global Television's
local television adequately and fairly representing Manitoba's ethnic
population, and do their programs adequately reflect the multicultural nature of
this province?
7870 For the answer to these questions, we examined Global's application for
renewal, their answers to the CRTC questions on cultural diversity and their
response to the interventions filed on this topic. We do not feel that the
information provided by Global on existing programs adequately reflects the
multicultural nature of Manitoba.
7871 We looked at programs of two minority communities, the aboriginal and
ethnocultural. We assumed the examples provided by Global are an accurate
reflection of their priorities.
7872 The program list under "Aboriginal Communities" -- and these are
Global's words:
"We are particularly proud of our work with First Nations communities. This
has produced programming that deals with the tough social issues those
communities face. These programs have only been possible because of the
constructive relationship being developed with First Nations communities." (As
read)
7873 In their limited programs they state that in 1995-97 CKMD produced six
half-hour specials entitled "First Nations". They tackled highly relevant
issues, such as self-government and aboriginal education.
7874 Under the news reflection of the community, Global's words are that
their news coverage provides a comprehensive, inclusive reflection of the
Winnipeg community.
7875 Under the news category, Global created a special aboriginal category.
They listed at 15 topics under this category that dealt with many very important
issues: suicide epidemics on northern reserves; aboriginals in prison -- too
high a percentage compared to their numbers in society; and the aboriginal
diabetes crisis, to name a few.
7876 In their effort to represent aboriginal communities, Global produced
programs that dealt with issues highly relevant to the aboriginal people, and we
commend them for their efforts to fairly represent these communities. This
minority is clearly one of Global's top priorities.
7877 We were interested to see if the same effort was made to adequately and
fairly represent Manitoba's ethnocultural communities. Manitoba's ethnocultural
communities did not warrant a special category. They were put under a category
called "Distinct Groups", where they were lumped in with the Christmas Cheer
Campaign, the Parade of Lights, breast cancer, the Salvation Army, and
homophobia.
7878 The category "Distinct Groups" listed 17 topics. Four of them
represented ethnocultural communities: black history conference on minorities;
Filipino community classes; Sikh and Muslim celebrations; Kosovo and Sierra
Leone refugees come to Winnipeg.
7879 The category "Community Production" listed 24 topics, three representing
the ethnocultural community: Italian coffee bar; Curacos(ph), an immigrant
family operating Winnipeg's best known business; and a profile on an African
American drummer.
7880 They also had a news special: "Swept Away: Hurricane Mitch", which
captured the connection between the devastation left by the hurricane to
Honduran immigrants living in Winnipeg.
7881 The category "Providing Diversity" had one topic: multicultural and
folklore festivals in Manitoba.
7882 These stories are simply reporting on community-sponsored activities and
simply profiling ethnic individuals. Where is the coverage of the highly
relevant social issues facing the ethnocultural communities of Manitoba?
7883 In comparison, Global's news coverage in Calgary lists 13 topics and 11
represent ethnocultural communities: Filipinos working as nannies; reports from
the Latin American community on racism and police brutality; and local Tibetan
communities concerned over China's atrocities in Tibet.
7884 Alberta has a very small ethnic population, but they are focusing on
social issues of great importance to these minority communities.
7885 The differences between the Calgary and Winnipeg ethnic programming is a
clear demonstration of what can happen when local station managers are
responsible for deciding how to implement CRTC policies and regulations.
7886 Under "Roles and Responsibilities" Global suggests that we leave local
programming to local station managers, who are in the best position to reflect
their communities. We believe that broadcasters are responsible for programming,
not station managers.
7887 Global is very reluctant to issue guidelines to protect minority
communities either for their documentaries or to their station managers.
7888 Minorities are protected through guidelines and regulations. The CRTC
regulations are in place to give directions to broadcasters. Where are Global's
guidelines to give directions to station managers?
7889 Global wants a flexible regulatory framework in order to compete in a
highly competitive market. We agree that they need flexibility, except in the
case where a fundamental principle of the CRTC is not being followed.
7890 In this case the CRTC has a very important role to both encourage and
require broadcasters to meet their regulatory requirements.
7891 We believe that Global is not adequately or fairly representing
Manitoba's ethnocultural communities and does not at this time accurately
reflect the multicultural nature of Manitoba's population.
7892 We have five recommendations: (1) that the CRTC carry out a study to
determine whether or not Canada's minority populations are adequately and fairly
represented by the Canadian broadcasting system; (2) that Global Television
develop a partnership with the ethnocultural communities of Manitoba in order to
find opportunities to better represent them in all levels of programming --
news, specials, documentaries and community production; (3) that Global develop
policies and guidelines for local station managers to produce programs that
adequately and fairly represent the ethnocultural communities of Manitoba and
that reflect the multicultural nature of Manitoba; (4) that Global priorize
Manitoba's ethnocultural communities as an important segment of Manitoba's
population and one that deserves to be adequately and fairly represented; and
(5) that Global set very clear and specific guidelines for their 36 hour-long
regional documentaries they are planning so that the minority community
interests will be represented in the documentaries.
7893 Our conclusion is that one of the most important measures of any
regulatory body is how they treat our minority communities. Our Canadian
broadcasting system helps define who we are as a nation and as people.
7894 We ask the CRTC to protect the rights of our minority communities, which
are still underserved and still underrepresented by the broadcasting system.
7895 We thank you for this opportunity to speak for and to advocate on behalf
of the ethnocultural communities of Manitoba.
7896 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Hemphill.
7897 I believe that Commissioner Cardozo has a question or two for you.
7898 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Hello, Ms Hemphill. Thanks very much for your
written communication and your presentation today.
7899 Can you hear me okay?
7900 MS HEMPHILL: I can.
7901 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I want to tell you first that your presentation --
I think, with a few others on the same subject -- has been quite instrumental in
moving this agenda ahead over the past week. The Commission had similar concerns
and views voiced in our TV policy a couple of years ago, but it has been very
helpful to have your detailed analysis that you have outlined today.
7902 There are a couple of things. First, we got a more detailed response
from Global, dated April 9. I don't know if you have a copy of it, but I am sure
they will be willing to send you a copy.
7903 MS HEMPHILL: Yes, I have the one dated April 9.
7904 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In that there is quite a bit more information
about some of the things that they have done over the past term across the
country.
7905 MS HEMPHILL: Yes. I went through it very carefully, because we had asked
in our original written presentation -- we said that it doesn't reflect --
you don't reflect it in what you are saying.
7906 When I got this next document, I looked through it very carefully, and
while it does spell out across the country some very good initiatives, the items
that were raised and listed relative to Manitoba were exactly the same ones that
had been listed in previous documents.
7907 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. We talked to a number of local managers, as
well, from across the country, from Winnipeg and elsewhere, and there was quite
a bit of coverage, I thought -- more in terms of multicultural issues -- perhaps
a bit more in the area of festivals and events, and perhaps a bit less in the
area of human interest and hard news.
7908 MS HEMPHILL: Yes. That is the point we were trying to make here.
7909 First of all, the terms of --
7910 And we are not even suggesting that the aboriginal community is
adequately presented and represented. At this point we are not in a position to
say that. But when looking at the two of them, it was clear that they were
receiving a higher priority, that they had a larger number of all types of
programming, and the big point was that they were dealing with hard, tough
social issues that really were important issues to those communities, and there
has been very little of that kind for the ethnocultural communities in
Manitoba.
7911 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, I hear you there.
7912 Let me tell you, in terms of this discussion with Global, at the end of
our discussion they made a few commitments. They agreed to participate in a task
force that the Commission had endorsed the idea of back in 1999, an
industry-community task force, which I think would really deal with the kind of
thing you were talking about in your first recommendation, in terms of a CRTC
study on the status of things now.
7913 MS HEMPHILL: Great.
7914 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Second, if we request it in our renewal decision,
they will be willing to file a detailed action plan. They outlined six points. I
don't have them all right here. Seeing that I am not the PR person for Global, I
won't go overboard here, but I will just say that they outlined a number of
points, which included employment equity, reflection of minority programming
issues, news issues, and they were also willing to file an annual report on
their progress in this area.
7915 Is this the kind of --
7916 MS HEMPHILL: That is very helpful. I think it is very helpful.
7917 I didn't deal with those other issues because of the time constraint.
You really have to decide to focus very narrowly to try to make a point, not all
of the points.
7918 In what they filed, they are focusing a lot on visible minorities. They
talk a lot about visible minorities. And, of course, our visible minority
population is about 75,000 in Manitoba, and a very small portion is in our
ethnoculture communities. So there is a big area there.
7919 But I think that would be very helpful, those two things.
7920 But I think the issue of not producing guidelines is a really important
issue. When they explain that it always sounds so good, because the flexibility
is for the local programming people who know their communities and are in the
best position to reflect what the needs are, and not to have the direction come
from above.
7921 But I think when you are dealing with minorities you have to have some
guidelines that are passed on to the station managers so that they have
something to follow. Otherwise, you get the disparities and the differences
across the country, where some station managers are doing a lot better job than
others on the minority issues, where all communities are entitled to the same
access.
7922 It is kind of like a fundamental principle that they cannot hand over to
the station managers that hold the responsibility for it, and I think the way to
ensure that is to provide some fairly basic guidelines on the requirements of
station managers to meet some of the minority communities' needs.
7923 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can I just ask you then in closing, whether this
is an ongoing priority of your Committee and whether you would be interested in
being part of this industry community task force and pursue precisely that type
of issue among any others --
7924 MS HEMPHILL: Yes, I think that it has been the start of -- we have
actually started a number of months ago with the cablevision. People had
the -- the ethnic programs in Manitoba were all brought by cablevision. So
that became our first issue and we became interested in what the other
broadcasters were doing. And so it has been a major ongoing issue for the
Committee.
7925 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes, we have heard from you on that issue.
7926 Okay. Well, that covers my questions.
7927 Thanks very much for your presentation and also for the detail that you
had provided and I hope you will be interested in continuing to work on the
issue and moving the issue forward.
7928 MS HEMPHILL: Thanks very much.
7929 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks.
7930 MS HEMPHILL: We appreciate the opportunity.
7931 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Not at all. Thanks. Bye-bye.
7932 MR. CUSSONS: Mr. Chairman, our next intervenor is Serge Felicetti, the
City of Niagara Falls Business Development.
7933 Good afternoon. Am I pronouncing your name correctly, sir?
7934 MR. FELICETTI: Yes, you are.
7935 MR. CUSSONS: Excellent. Welcome to our hearing.
7936 Please proceed.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
8100 MR. EGAN: Thank you. Thank you very much for the opportunity to
participate in the hearing by conference call.
8101 As you know, I am Rob Egan. I am President and Chief Executive Officer
of British Columbia Film. We are pleased to present our comments to the
Commission as part of this important hearing process to renew the licenses of
Global and CTV. We would like to take this opportunity to expand on our written
submission as well as respond to Global and CTV's comments in response to our
intervention.
8102 Let me begin by addressing a number of concerns and criticisms levelled
at us in Global's response to our written intervention.
8103 Firstly, Global dismissed the western production studies that we
presented as being out of date. Of course, we would be pleased and would welcome
the opportunity to work with CTV and Global to update these studies.
Nonetheless, we feel that the trends outlined in these reports remain valid
historically regarding the lack of regional programming being initiated in the
west by these large national broadcasters.
8104 Global also interpreted one of our comments as being snide. We simply
stated that big sound is the only Canadian drama series broadcast by Global
whose production company is not related to a large Toronto-based production
company given that Salter Street is now owned by Alliance Atlantis.
8105 This was not intended as a negative comment aimed at Salter Street but
as a regional comment. Salter Street, in fact, is a company with which we have a
high degree of respect and one whose production track record is enviable.
8106 We do not see how Global could purposely take it as a snide remark, and
we were disappointed and distressed to see our comments characterized in this
manner.
8107 Additionally, Global's concern in our written submission is that we do
not give Global credit for the BCE New Producer Fund or the Seawest Fund. We do
think that these are valuable and important initiatives and are ones that we
supported at the previous WIC hearing. We are pleased that Global is honouring
their WIC benefits commitments. In fact we had hoped that the BCE benefits would
be more directed to western priority programming production.
8108 However, we are under the impression that this hearing is concerned with
CTV and Global's commitments as contained in their license renewal applications,
not related to the initiatives resulting from last year's hearings and
decisions.
8109 As well, we acknowledged in our written submission that during the new
license term Global has committed to producing six documentaries in British
Columbia. However, we remain concerned that this seems to be the only B.C.-based
programming commitment that Global is prepared to make for the next seven
years.
8110 Global also takes British Columbia Film to task for not acknowledging
that Global does three drama series in Vancouver, not just Big Sound. However,
these other two series, Andromeda and Outer Limits are industrial Canadian
productions driven primarily by the U.S. syndication market. Global may wish to
take credit for these series, but in fact without U.S. syndication it is
unlikely that these series would have been shot in Vancouver with or without
Global.
8111 While we acknowledge that a number of Canadian broadcasters license
these types of industrial Canadian drama series and we acknowledge the economic
benefits that derive from this type of production, we do not feel that this type
of production supports and promotes to the same degree regional Canadian
creative talent and its reflection on these national networks.
8112 Next in turning to CTV's response to our intervention, we note that they
did not respond to our concerns regarding CTV's intention to abandon the
programming and production commitments made by CIBT as part of being awarded the
new TV license in Vancouver.
8113 At the 1997 hearing it was discussed that the CTV affiliation agreement
with the WIC stations expired in 2001. However, CTV did not, at that time, state
that if their new station became the CTV affiliate they would then abandon their
promises to the BC independent production community.
8114 The notion that CTV can now unilaterally decide to renege on these
promises amounting to tens of millions of dollars for the BC production
community have made it part of the competitive hearing process and we trust that
the Commission will not allow this to occur.
8115 Ultimately our written submission and our presentation to the Commission
today are concerned with Global and CTV's license renewal applications and their
commitments to producing priority programming in all regions of the country. Our
focus, quite naturally, is indigenous Canadian prime time priority programming
through which western voices and stories can be expressed at times when Canadian
audiences are available to watch. How else can we build an audience for Canadian
programming.
8116 We are also concerned that appropriate development dollars be spent in
the regions across Canada as well. We feel it is important for large
broadcasters to make commitments to development funding in each of their
respective markets and to spend these monies in those markets.
8117 Fundamentally our priority is to ensure room for regional voices and
stories on Canadian prime time screens. As we stated in our written submission,
the Canadian public has a right to return for its investment in the Canadian
broadcasting system. Therefore, as noted in our written submission, our key
recommendation is that these national private broadcasters be required to
provide a minimum of three hours of regional programming as part of the eight
hours per week of required priority programming in prime time.
8118 This level reflects the dollars of advertising that these broadcasters
take out of the west. These should be conditions of license to ensure compliance
and should include a requirement to undertake the majority of such production
with small and medium independent production companies.
8119 We also suggested that the Commission ensure 35 per cent of Canadian
priority programming expenditures are spent on western Canadian production.
However, as stated in our written submission, the regional priority programming
category, as established by the CRTC in its TV policy, only encourages regional
production in the categories of education, human interest, religion and game
shows.
8120 CTV's response to intervention notes that we suggest this category be
removed and we stand by this recommendation. Policy is always subject to change
when valid objectives are not being met and these hearings only confirm the
concerns we raised at the time of the TV policy hearings.
8121 Is the Commission prepared to accept that prime time regional
programming may consist only of game shows, human interest, and educational
programming? Is this the intention of the TV policy? If not, how is the
Commission going to ensure that this does not occur?
8122 We believe it is critically important for the Commission to ensure that
prime time regional programming should be derived from the priority programming
category in drama, documentary, music and variety. We do not believe that
regionally produced game shows or human interest programming provide the
necessary vehicle through which regional voices and stories can truly be
reflected to audiences across our nation.
8123 In their renewal applications, both Global and CTV express little or no
intention of pursuing this category of regional priority programming as these
genres are limited in their appeal to prime time audiences in any event.
However, we are concerned that these private broadcasters will, in future, avail
themselves of these categories of inexpensive programming in order to meet any
new regional programming obligations.
8124 We do not consider that programs such as game shows, educational or
human interest programming, shot in studios outside of Toronto, Montreal or
Vancouver to be as important and culturally valuable to Canadian prime time
audiences as regionally created and produced dramas, documentary, music and
variety programming.
8125 Therefore, we strongly urge the Commission to support as conditions of
license, minimum levels of regional programming in the significant priority
programming categories of drama, music, variety and documentary. We expect these
conditions to apply to both CTV's eight hours and Global's 16 hours of priority
programming obligations.
8126 In their renewal applications, both CTV and Global avoid making specific
commitments to regional programming in prime time. They seem to be saying to the
Commission, "Trust us." Yet in B.C. and across the west for that matter,
Global's past history is not convincing. Global promised to do better as noted
in the WIC decision and the Commission promised to review Global's commitment to
regional drama at this license renewal hearing. Meanwhile, CTV is currently
attempting to reduce their commitments to B.C. producers.
8127 Canadian broadcasters are accountable to their shareholders and we
respect this. But they also have an obligation, and most particularly these
national networks, to provide regional reflection to Canadian audiences. The
Commission has a responsibility under the Broadcasting Act to represent regional
concerns and it seems only by way of conditions of license do these broadcasters
meet these obligations.
8128 We urge the Commission to incorporate regional programming in drama,
documentary and music and variety programming as part of these broadcasters'
prime time commitments to Canadian audiences. Regional and national groups,
including the CFTPA, AMPIA and Manitoba Film and Sound all agree on this. These
licensed terms are potentially for a seven year period and as noted in our
written submission, the Commission should undertake annual reviews with these
broadcasters to ensure that policy objectives, including regional diversity in
prime time programming are being met.
8129 This may well be the last chance for the Commission to put into effect
their words of support regional production, including regional drama production
as voiced in the TV policy decision.
8130 Thank you very much for the opportunity to present our views in this
important process.
8131 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Egan. Commissioner Grauer has a
couple of questions for you.
8132 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you.
8133 Thank you, Mr. Egan, for your presentation today and of course your
written presentation. I don't know if you followed the proceeding last week. We
had discussions with both CTV and Global on this very subject.
8134 I think we canvassed fairly extensively, discussed with them fairly
extensively the fact that this has been an ongoing irritant for producers in
western Canada. Not to say that it isn't an issue in the Atlantic, but it is one
that has certainly been raised for a number of years in western Canada and again
in this hearing, with interventions from the Western Producers Association and
funding organizations.
8135 What was clear from these discussions was that I think that we all --
that there appears to be common agreement that it is an important issue and that
these broadcasters do have a responsibility to reflect in peak time programming
the regional diversity and balance in the country and that includes drama and
the priority categories.
8136 They have expressed great reluctance, however, to be constrained by
quotas or restrictive measurements which would inhibit the flexibility they feel
they need to deal with the cyclical nature of, in particular, the drama
production business.
8137 So I wonder -- it is not as easy to have a dialogue on the phone, but I
guess in my own view what is really important is, is there a will and a
commitment on the part of these broadcasters, notwithstanding --
8138 I appreciate the issues that have been raised by all the organizations
with respect to the past. I think that Global, in particular, said "It is a new
Global and we are turning over a new leaf". I think that they have put, in
particular, annual commitments to developments -- script and concept
developments -- being made over the licence term, and the same is true of CTV,
notwithstanding the issues around Vancouver, which we also canvassed with
them.
8139 I wonder if you could just give me your response if you have heard that.
As I say, they also indicated a willingness to report annually if we can find
some sort of criteria that would be publicly available and perhaps measured and
assessed over a period of a number of years rather than annually.
8140 Could you give me your views on that?
8141 MR. EGAN: Thank you for your question, Commissioner Grauer. I agree that
dialogue is not most effective over the telephone, but I feel that I have an
obligation to ensure that my bronchitis remains here on the west coast and as
far away from you folks as possible.
8142 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you.
8143 MR. EGAN: I think that we certainly understand the difficult challenge
and balance that the broadcasters face in ensuring that they are able to be
accountable to their shareholders, that they have the necessary flexibility in
programming and financial decisions that they require in order to meet their
obligations to their shareholders.
8144 That is certainly something that we appreciate and understand.
8145 Nonetheless, we do maintain that there is a quid pro quo here, that
these broadcasters do derive a significant benefit from the public, and we think
that the public is entitled to a return on that investment with respect to some
specific commitments around priority programming in the regions of the
country.
8146 I also concur with your view that there are difficulties with respect to
quotas that can be too constraining with respect to the objectives of the
broadcasters. If I had the solution, I would be the first one to put it
forward.
8147 We have suggested here some specific recommendations around specific
hours of programming, and of course the broadcasters may find that too
constraining. But I think that we, at least, need to look at a minimum
expectation, at the very least.
8148 We acknowledge, as I said, the challenge faced by the broadcasters, but
it is so important for there to be an understanding of the importance of the
broadcaster's commitments in the regions as well.
8149 In the case of CIBT and CTV, "Cold Squad" -- in the production of "Cold
Squad" in Vancouver -- it was an important production that helped kickstart a
sagging television production industry in the mid-nineties.
8150 Staff in Vancouver -- for example, Louise Clark -- in recent years have
been tireless in their efforts on behalf of the broadcaster to support the
independent production community.
8151 We ourselves have undertaken a small partnership with a documentary
initiative with CanWest Global.
8152 So it is very important that we all understand and acknowledge the
important role that these broadcasters play in development and production in the
regional production centres.
8153 As I say, I think that it is always difficult when we start getting into
specific recommendations around hours per week and expenditures and so on and so
forth, but at the same time I don't think we can just leave it and rely upon it
as an act of faith either. I think we have to find a way of attaching some
requirements through the licensing process.
8154 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you. One other question. You referred to the
representative revenues generated by the broadcasters and you suggested using
this as kind of a guideline. I wonder if you could elaborate on that at all --
how we might do that.
8155 MR. EGAN: I think, Commissioner Grauer, that it is important. We thought
about this to some degree and tried to determine a method by which we might
approach this problem.
8156 We made the recommendation that spending requirements be at the 35 per
cent level for priority programming. We calculated this 35 per cent based on
information from the CRTC television statistical and financial summaries from
1996 to 2000. Essentially what we did was, we took the amount for Canadian
private broadcasters as the total for Canada and we subtracted out Quebec
revenues, for simplicity's sake, to reflect English Canada only.
8157 Private broadcasters in Canada outside Quebec generated about $1.5
billion in revenue. We then compared this with the CRTC's breakdowns by
region.
8158 In British Columbia alone private broadcasters generated approximately
$214 million in revenue, about 15 per cent of the total, and in the prairies
more than $280 million, or about 20 per cent of the total.
8159 So using the CRTC's regional designation of B.C. and the prairies, in
matching revenues to expenditure levels, a total of 35 per cent of the Canadian
programming in these private networks should come from the west.
8160 That is the method that we used. We certainly accept that there may be
some flaws or imperfections with that method, but, again, we were trying to find
ways of finding that balance in terms of, as I say, the fundamentals of the
broadcasters' obligations to their shareholders and their need for flexibility,
which we have heard much about and certainly understand, but also trying to look
at the quid pro quo and trying to find some level of priority programming hours
and expenditures, and a methodology that perhaps made some common sense to
us.
8161 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you. I have one last question, and it is not
specifically related to your presentation, but it is something that I would
appreciate hearing your views on.
8162 In our discussions over the last two days of last week, we struggled
with the notion of what is local programming, particularly at a time where we
have seen over the last 10 to 15 years a lot of decline in what formerly
constituted local programming, and in fact what historically were a lot of local
initiatives undertaken by broadcasters with producers in their communities.
8163 One of the things that struck me as we talked about this last week --
and I would appreciate your views on what role you think priority programs, for
instance programs like "Cold Squad", in fact do reflect the place at which they
are produced, and in a way --
8164 If you are looking at the extent to which a community sees itself
reflected on television and across the country, what role do you think these
kinds of shows play?
8165 MR. EGAN: I think they play a very significant role, and I think that
this is very much a work in progress as well.
8166 I think that funding agencies, broadcasters, federal funding agencies,
CTF -- I think that we are all trying to address this challenge of ensuring that
when a television set is turned on in New Brunswick, Toronto or Kamloops,
British Columbia, that Canadians have an opportunity to see something of
themselves and that the programming speaks to the history of their communities
or looks ahead to the challenges that their communities face.
8167 I think that that reflection is important in helping us to have a better
sense of our own identity as Canadians, and to understand as well that we have
the creative talent and the creative drive to produce this kind of quality
programming that not only enables this reflection to occur, but also enables us
to share that on the international stage.
8168 I also think that these shows and this kind of programming is enormously
important in developing talent in the regions. It allows actors, writers and
crews the opportunity to work their craft over time, and it plays an extremely
valuable and important role in nurturing that talent and allowing it to grow and
develop.
8169 One thing I know for sure is that you don't get better at your craft if
you don't have an opportunity to practise it, and this kind of programming, I
believe, is extremely important in allowing the creative talent that we have in
our communities to, in fact, develop and enhance their skills and their
craft.
8170 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Equally, of course, it would apply to shows like
"Blue Murder" and "Bob and Margaret" and whatnot. But I am also interested to
know what role -- and I know this isn't your bailiwick -- shows like Gabereau,
Bullard, the new national news out of Vancouver, and the national public affairs
show out of Alberta -- what role you think they play in that mix.
8171 MR. EGAN: I think that they are an important element of it. One of the
things I have seen just in the last year is the kind of pride that the community
demonstrates when we are able to see a national news broadcast emanating from
Vancouver and produced in Vancouver.
8172 I think it adds to the diversity of voices and the diversity of views
that are so important and that we value, I think, particularly in light of the
discussions that you have been having over the last couple of weeks around the
whole issue of media concentration.
8173 I think that one of the concerns that certainly I have heard in the
coverage of your hearings is how the issue of diversity and diversity of opinion
can be addressed during this period of media concentration. I think that one of
the ways that can be handled is by ensuring that there are these kinds of
current affairs, public opinion and news broadcasts from centres across the
country which demonstrate to all Canadians that we are not a homogeneous,
monolithic culture, but that we are a diverse multicultural society with many
different points of view on many things that can be expressed through this
medium.
8174 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Those are all of my questions. Thank you very much,
Mr. Egan.
8175 MR. EGAN: Thank you so much for the opportunity to participate.
8176 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Egan.
8177 We will take a break now. We have gone through just about exactly half
of the folks that we had on our list, so we will take a 20 minute break now and
then reconvene to go through the rest of the list, and hopefully we will be able
to reach all of the rest.
8178 We will take a break and reconvene in 20 minutes.
--- Upon recessing at 1455 / Reprise à 2h55
--- Upon resuming at 1520 / Reprise à 1520
8179 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome back to the teleconference interventions and I
will turn the microphone over to Mr. Secretary.
8180 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
8181 Our next intervenor is Mr. Ian Cowan of the Hamilton Chamber of
Commerce.
8182 Mr. Cowan, are you there?
8183 MR. COWAN: Yes, I am.
8184 MR. CUSSONS: Welcome to our hearing, Mr. Cowan.
8185 Please proceed with your intervention.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
8259 MR. HELLQUIST: Thank you very much. I will try to keep my presentation
as brief as possible.
8260 Let me first of all give you a little bit of background, my own personal
background and my involved with CTV and the local affiliate, CKCK
Television.
8261 I have lived in the community for about 12 years, having moved here to
take a position at the University as the Athletic Director.
8262 Following that, I have worked in the community in a variety of
capacities, but spent a number of years with the United Way of Regina as the
Chief Executive officer.
8263 I started as the Chief Executive Officer at the Science Centre
approximately a year ago, so I have certainly all in those capacities had many
opportunities to work with CK Television in those capacities and to work with
them on a variety of projects in the community.
8264 Certainly I have been very impressed with the involvement of CKCK
Television, CTV, in our community. They have done a tremendous amount I think to
strengthen and enhance the community. I would like really to touch on three main
areas where I think that their involvement has been very much appreciated and
then give some specific examples of projects and activities in the community
that they certainly have been instrumental in supporting.
8265 The three areas I want to touch on are community coverage or event
coverage in the community. The second one is their support and sponsorship of
community activities. The third, which I think is very important but a somewhat
overlooked area of involvement, is their support and the support of their staff
in volunteer activities in the community.
8266 They again have been very instrumental in not just providing sponsorship
support but also access to human resources in the community. I would like to
just touch on those three areas very briefly and then, as I mentioned, give you
some specific examples.
8267 First of all, CK Television has been very instrumental in covering
community activities. They are always available to provide support for community
activities and are very aggressive in ensuring that a wide range of community
events, a wide range of community activities are certainly promoted in the
community and are covered, whether it's on news coverage or special event
coverage or through the use of public service announcements.
8268 They do a tremendous job, I think, of providing information to the
community through that coverage and certainly ensuring that people within
southern Saskatchewan, and throughout the province in fact, are kept informed of
events and activities that are happening, but also certainly newsworthy
activities in and around the community.
8269 That's certainly very important I think to the organizations that I have
been affiliated with, but it certainly I think adds a great deal of value and
strengthens the community fabric. Without that kind of support, we certainly
don't have the depth and breadth of knowledge and understanding and involvement
that we do in our community.
8270 The second area I want to touch on is their financial support and their
support through the use of product of things in the community. CKCK Television
is always available to provide not just event coverage, but also a great deal of
support to events that are happening in the community.
8271 It doesn't matter whether it's the Grey Cup happening here or whether
it's the Memorial Cup which is coming up in a few weeks, CK Television is always
available to provide very good support for those in terms of public service
announcements, in terms of the production of advertising and information for
those events and in addition are always prepared to provide more than adequate
air time, either on a donated basis or certainly on a preferred rate basis to
ensure again that organizations which might not otherwise have the opportunity
to have their event covered or promoted in the community are available to do
so.
8272 They are very generous with their production time which again is
something that very few organizations at the community level can always afford
to purchase.
8273 The third area that I have learned to value with CK Television is their
involvement of their staff as volunteers in community activities. Certainly many
of their staff members serve on boards and organizations within the community.
Many of them are very active in special events that happen in the community.
Again, through that involvement I think they add a great deal of richness and
willingness to share their expertise with other groups in the community which
might not otherwise be able to access that.
8274 That kind of involvement I think is often overlooked, but is greatly
valued I think throughout the community and certainly by the organizations that
I have been involved with. I have traditionally had somebody from CKCK
Television involved in those various organizations that I have been involved
with and have both appreciated and respected their input.
8275 I would like to give you just some examples of the things that I have
seen in the community where CKCK Television have added great value. I'm reminded
of things like our turf project where CKCK Television took the responsibility
for fundraising to replace the turf at Taylor Field, which is our local football
stadium, which is enjoyed not just by our Saskatchewan Rough Riders whom some of
you may have heard about, but also by many of our high school and local football
teams and certainly our Regina Rams, our local university team.
8276 It's a very heavily used facility. It was in desperate need of
refurbishment and again, CKCK Television took on the project of raising the
funds to refurbish the field and raise some $1.7 million, not just in Regina but
throughout the province and actually across Canada.
8277 That's $1.7 million that perhaps might would not otherwise have been
found. Either the field would not have been replaced or it would have had to
have been replaced through taxpayer dollars.
8278 I'm reminded as well by other projects in the community. They just
finished being a partner with a project with the Greek community in this city.
The event was called Evening in Greece and the proceeds of it were going to
promote a renodialysis unit at the hospital. Again, in an evening they raised
with CKCK Television's help $68,000 which again goes to support equipment that
would otherwise not be available.
8279 In my own personal experience, CK Television has generously been a
partner with the annual United Way of Regina golf tournament which typically
raises anywhere from $50,000 to $75,000. Over the last decade it has raised well
more than a half a million dollars to promote human services in our
community.
8280 CK Television has been a partner in that from the initial year and,
again, provides production assistance, volunteer support and is actually one of
the funding sponsors of the event. Again, their involvement has provided great
value there.
8281 They have also been supporting events like the Sandra Schmirler
Foundation through their golf tournament and have raised some $15,000 in last
year's tournament for that project as well. They are very instrumental in a wide
variety of other community activities such as Crime Stoppers, the Chamber of
Commerce, our local symphony and Opera Saskatchewan.
8282 With my own experience here at the Saskatchewan Science Centre, they are
one of our preferred media teams. They produce all of our advertising for the
Saskatchewan Science Centre and provide air time at a very preferred rate, which
enables us again to promote the activities of our science centre and get
information out to our community about upcoming events and activities.
8283 They are also tremendous at providing their promotional support,
particularly through their news anchors. We are frequently asked to participate
on their noon hour talk shows with Bill O'Donovan or with Tara Robinson or Tom
Brown on the weather or news shows. Again, that kind of promotional support and
news coverage elevates our information to a somewhat higher level and gets I
think a much wider viewership. Plus Tom Brown and Tara are very active in
serving as Masters of Ceremonies that we hold at the Science Centre, but also
that other community associations hold in the community.
8284 Again, they have been very active at the Saskatchewan Science Centre in
helping us to create our advertising plan, helping us to deliver on our
advertising plan, giving us advice, not only on television advertising, but how
do we integrate the messaging on television with what we are doing with print
and radio advertising. So they have become very much a part of our creative and
support team which goes well beyond simply a relationship between supplier and
purchaser.
8285 That's just a few examples of the kinds of activities that they continue
to support in the community, certainly the kinds of activities that I have seen
and benefited from our involvement with. I would certainly strongly support and
endorse their application for their licence renewal.
8286 I would be happy to answer any questions that anybody might have.
8287 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Well, I think you, Mr. Hellquist. I don't think
we have any questions. You certainly have given a detailed overview of the
support in your community and we thank you for that.
8288 MR. HELLQUIST: Thank you very much for the opportunity to do so.
8289 THE CHAIRPERSON: Bye, bye.
8290 MR. HELLQUIST: Bye for now.
8291 MR. CUSSONS: We will now hear from Mr. Kent Smith-Windsor of the
Saskatoon & District Chamber of Commerce. Mr. Smith-Windsor.
8292 MR. SMITH-WINDSOR: Hello.
8293 MR. CUSSONS: Mr. Smith-Windsor.
8294 MR. SMITH-WINDSOR: Hello.
8295 MR. CUSSONS: Can you hear me?
8296 MR. SMITH-WINDSOR: Yes, I can, sir, very good.
8297 MR. CUSSONS: Welcome to our hearing. We would be happy to hear your
presentation.
8298 MR. SMITH-WINDSOR: Okay. Thank you very much.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
8360 MR. CUSSONS: Mr. Purcell, are you there?
8361 MR. PURCELL: Yes, I am here.
8362 MR. CUSSONS: Mr. Purcell, you represent Laurentian Enterprises. We are
very pleased to have you at the CRTC hearing. Would you begin your presentation,
please.
8363 MR. PURCELL: Thank you very much. Good afternoon. I am the Executive
Director of Laurentian Enterprises, which is the new business arm of Laurentian
University, which is situated in Sudbury, Ontario.
8364 Laurentian University previously supplied a letter of support for the
licence renewal of MCTV and it is in further support of this renewal that I
speak to you today, and I thank you for the opportunity.
8365 I have been a resident of Sudbury since the latter part of 1995, when I
was transferred here as the Vice-President, Northern Ontario, for the Bank of
Montreal.
8366 Over the last five years I have served as a member of the Board of
Governors at Laurentian University, as well as the director of our Mining
Research Institute, MRCO(ph). I have also served as a director of the YMCA
Centre for Life.
8367 My other community involvements have included participating in a number
of economic initiatives for the chamber of commerce, the city, the regional
government, and various charitable and cultural organizations.
8368 At the bank I travelled extensively throughout my geographical area of
responsibility, which was virtually the same as that of MCTV. I have, through
frequent trips throughout northern Ontario, had many opportunities to observe
MCTV's involvement, both corporately and through their personnel.
8369 My comments reflect my observations over the last five years, both in a
Sudbury and a northern Ontario context.
8370 I would like to comment on MCTV's involvement, which I have personal
awareness of in three areas, namely: news coverage, community involvement, and,
finally, involvement with Laurentian University.
8371 My comment on news coverage is simply that in observing MCTV's coverage,
both in Sudbury and in other locations, I have found it to be thorough,
consistent, balanced and neutral as to its position.
8372 I would also say that it clearly focuses on local issues primarily.
8373 With respect to community involvement, I find that the corporate and
individual involvement of MCTV is, again, what I would refer to as extensive and
consistent. These involvements include board memberships by senior personnel in
organizations such as the chamber of commerce, the YMCA Centre for Life, and
Cinefest(ph).
8374 Of special interest to the business environment is their support for the
northern Ontario business awards, which is the north's premier business event
annually and for which MCTV has produced the television support for the five
years of the event that I have been able to attend.
8375 In the area of cultural, charity and sporting events, MCTV's presence
is, again, extensive. This involvement includes both personnel participation, as
well as news and publicity coverage in the case of Sudbury, covering events such
as the Sudbury symphony, "Northern Lights", "Cinefest", our regional initiative
called "Music and Film in Motion", broadcasting and contributing to telethons
for our critical health fund and issue, the Heart and Soul Campaign, as well as
their long-term support of the MCTV Lion's Club Christmas Telethon, which I
understand is the longest running telethon in Canada.
8376 This list is far from complete, but I have observed both in Sudbury and
during my stay in cities such as North Bay, Sault Ste. Marie, Timmins and on
Manitoulin Island that MCTV can be counted on for participation in coverage in
any number of diverse events and causes.
8377 Finally, I would like to focus on MCTV's involvement with the
university. I would start by indicating that their coverage of other northern
Ontario post-secondary educational institutions -- again I would characterize as
consistent, thorough and fair. As with Laurentian University, coverage and
support ranges from cultural, social, educational, as well as sporting events
and our news stories.
8378 As mentioned in our president's letter of support, MCTV is a strong
financial and on-air supporter of our Laurentian Voyageurs athletics. As a
matter of fact, they even hired one of our star Lady V basketball players for
their sales team. I know that she has cracked the lineup and is doing very
well.
8379 For each of the past three years MCTV has contributed over $30,000 worth
of advertising time. This time has been critical to the marketing and
promotional success of our Voyageurs' athletic program and the university's
profile in general.
8380 That coverage has been described as fantastic by our coaches, players
and athletic director, but, most importantly, by the community at large.
8381 The last example I would like to describe to you is particularly
exciting, and MCTV's role is pivotal.
8382 Laurentian University's Department of English has launched a film
studies program. I would like to quote Dr. Hoi Chu(ph), our English department
professor and originator of this program, concerning his philosophy on this new
initiative:
"Liberal arts skills, creativity, critical thinking and communications
proficiency are in high demand in this century's new economy, but these
abilities are often overlooked because humanities students need to obtain the
practical skills required to accomplish their tasks. In order to equip students
with the necessary knowledge and experience for the information age, the media
production program is designed to inject practical and technological components
into the current film studies division at the English department. By exposing
the students to various media technologies and aesthetic principles, the media
production program encourages students to establish their production profile in
media art and, in turn, prepares them for active participation in Canada's
visual culture and high tech infrastructure." (As read)
8383 MCTV's contribution has two elements to this. Firstly, they have
provided a $50,000 endowment for the university. Dr. Chu and myself are
currently designing the guidelines that will see the endowment proceeds support
our students in a variety of creative initiatives. Even our students' diverse
backgrounds and the various disciplines reflected on our program's enrolment,
and particularly the exciting work they produced in their first projects -- we
see great potential to support MCTV's objective of fostering the ongoing
development of northern Ontario talent and the production of Canadian film and
television initiatives that reflect our heritage.
8384 This will also permit the university to better support the regional
economic initiative that I have previously referred to, called "Music and Film
in Motion".
8385 The importance of this endowment is the capability it provides to link
our curriculum to the practical creative projects that our students will
undertake to apply their learned competencies.
8386 For example, the course Creative Writing will form a logical link to the
practical application of script and story development.
8387 The opportunity to showcase our students to the community through their
projects, supported by this endowment, will also, we expect, significantly
increase their employment opportunities locally.
8388 The second element of MCTV's contribution is, again, consistent with
their usual practice, as we have included in the program practical experience
for the students at MCTV's facilities and participation by MCTV personnel in our
classroom environment.
8389 I will conclude my remarks by renewing Laurentian University's and my
personal support for the renewal of MCTV's licence, and we would be pleased to
answer any questions.
8390 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Purcell. It is an
interesting program that is going on at Laurentian and we wish you and all the
folks at Laurentian success in the continuation of that program, and
particularly the new one.
8391 MR. PURCELL: Great. Thank you.
8392 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks a lot.
8393 Mr. Secretary?
8394 MR. CUSSONS: Mr. Knowles?
8395 MR. KNOWLES: Yes, it is Ken Knowles from Edmonton, Alberta.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
8411 MR. CUSSONS: Welcome to the CRTC hearing, Mr. Shepard.
8412 MR. SHEPARD: Thank you very much.
8413 MR. CUSSONS: We would be pleased to hear your presentation.
8414 MR. SHEPARD: First of all, thank you to the Commission for inviting me
to speak with you today, and my compliments on your innovative approach. I have
attended CRTC hearings in person in the past, but never in this way. It is an
interesting experience.
8415 I would like to begin by giving you a bit of background about the centre
that I am proud to manage and why the service provided by the CTV service here,
CFQC Television, is so important to us.
8416 John George Diefenbaker was the 13th person to be Prime Minister of
Canada. He served this country from 1940, when he was first elected as a member
of Parliament, until his passing in 1979. He served 39 uninterrupted years in
Parliament, and of course was our Prime Minister from 1957 to 1963.
8417 Mr. Diefenbaker was a personal friend of the late President Harry Truman
and visited the Truman Presidential Library in Independence, Missouri, and
returned to Canada and told people that that is what Canada needed more of:
regionally based but nationally focused institutions; that not all of the
country's history should be centralized in Ottawa -- a sentiment I happen to
share.
8418 Mr. Diefenbaker, being the person that he was, was going to do something
about it, and he proceeded to begin to develop the Diefenbaker Centre here at
the University of Saskatchewan.
8419 The centre has been in existence since 1980. We opened in June of 1980.
We have just finished our 20th year.
8420 We have, interestingly, not received any federal support since 1990,
when our funds were cut off, and we have never received provincial support,
other than a few periodic project grants.
8421 For all intents and purposes, we are self-supporting. We are maintained
by the interests from three trust accounts, from our admission fees and from the
revenues from our gift shop. It is because we are largely self-supporting that
our partnerships are so crucial to us. One of the most important partnerships
that we have in this community is with CFQC Television, the CTV outlet here.
8422 We approached CFQC Television because of their previous support for us
-- they had been very supportive over the years in broadcasting our public
service announcements -- but also because of their reputation in our community.
They are very much a community oriented station. They are involved in everything
that goes on in Saskatoon and in this part of Saskatchewan.
8423 Our partnership with them -- the one that we proposed, and which they
have accepted -- allows school groups to visit the Diefenbaker Canada Centre for
programming free of charge. Our educational programs are curriculum based and
grade specific, and they deal with what might be termed the civics side of
Canadian political history. We leave the partisan politics to those who know it
best. Our programs deal with civics.
8424 For example, one of our programs is called "Diefenbaker for the
Defence". In it grades 5 and 6 students come to the centre. They can dress in
costume, and we conduct one of Mr. Diefenbaker's trials. They have cards which
they are given. One of them is chosen as judge, another a crown prosecutor, the
rest become the jurists, and so forth, and they learn something about how a
Canadian courtroom works. This serves as a counterweight to some of the American
courtroom dramas which appear on our television airways regularly.
8425 In addition, we have a program called "Land of the Midnight Sun", which
introduces students in this community to life in the Arctic and the Inuit
peoples. It was designed in collaboration with an Inuit educator, who happens to
work in our College of Education here at the university, and has been extremely
well received by the teachers and students in kindergarten and grade 1 here.
8426 In addition, we have a program called "Cabinet", which is designed to
give young people some idea of how the Canadian cabinet system works. We have an
exact replica of the Privy Council Chamber, or cabinet room, here at our centre.
Because it is largely a replica, we allow the students to use it. The teachers
are sent a package of material in advance. The students are assigned portfolios,
which they are expected to research and know something of the departments they
represent. They then come to the centre and conduct a cabinet meeting here in
the replica of the cabinet room.
8427 The topic which we give the senior high school students in grades 11 and
12 is whether to reinstate the death penalty for capital crimes. Our guide
serves as the Prime Minister, and as the discussion unfolds, if the discussion
is going more toward reinstating capital punishment, the role of the guide
interpreter is to give examples of where that has not worked or not helped. If
the debate moves more toward maintaining the current abolition, we open up a
discussion on issues related to proper punishment.
8428 The whole idea is to give the young people a sense of the difficulty and
complexity of these issues and how elected officials have to grapple with very
serious questions and issues.
8429 At the end of that particular program, a vote is taken and regardless of
which way the Cabinet votes, the Prime Minister vetoes their decision. So he
gives them a taste of real "politiques" as well.
8430 I should perhaps warn you that we have a very independent minded
generation coming up. The last time we conducted this program, when the Prime
Minister vetoed their decision, the entire Cabinet resigned and the government
fell.
8431 But they do get a very good idea of how decisions are made in our civics
system and the teachers have been very generous in their praise. All of our
programs are offered throughout the school year from September to June and the
teachers choose when to bring the classes here, when it would fit best into
their curriculum plans and do the most good for the classes.
8432 I mention these programs because it is through our cooperation with CFQC
television that we are able to offer these free of charge to the schools of
Saskatoon and area and we could not do that otherwise. Given our limited
resources, we would simply have to charge the schools, who are themselves, of
course, faced with very difficult financial questions. There is absolutely no
question in our mind that we would be seeing far fewer school groups coming
through if it wasn't for our partnership with CFQC.
8433 CFQC gives us air time, which we could not otherwise afford. I must make
a comment that they are wonderful people to work with. Jan McLurin, the
writer/producer that has been assigned to work with us has developed a real
sense of our needs and what we are trying to accomplish and is just an
absolutely delightful person to work with.
8434 We always make sure that we send our press releases to Jim McQuarry(ph),
the local weatherman. As a family facility, we are very sensitive to weather as
a factor in our visitation and Mr. McQuarry(ph) always makes sure that we are
mentioned when our announcements come up. He mentions our particular program
during the weather forecast and we know it has an impact simply because of the
number of people that have commented upon it.
8435 Gerry McLeod(ph) and David Fisher(ph) have been very, very supportive,
not only of these initiatives but other initiatives that we have been involved
with. For example, we are currently one of the participants in the Historica
Foundation National Youth Heritage Fair Program. As we speak, I am discussing
with Jan and David how we can get the local Saskatoon Youth Heritage Fair a bit
more publicity over the airwaves with CFQC-TV.
8436 CFQC, I believe, has the highest ratings in our area. It's because they
have earned the trust and respect of the people who live here. We not only
benefit from working with them, we enjoy it. It is my belief that their licence
should be renewed because we need them to continue to provide the level of
service and support that we have come to expect.
8437 I would be pleased to answer any questions you might have of our
experience with them but we certainly do support CFQC's licence renewal.
8438 Thank you very much.
8439 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Shepard. I'm wondering whether you
have created a model of the CRTC in your Diefenbaker Centre.
8440 MR. SHEPARD: Not yet.
8441 THE CHAIRPERSON: You could debate some of these relatively simply issues
like cross-media ownership. I would be interested to see what the students would
have to say.
8442 MR. SHEPARD: It is a very interesting question and it is something that
we should perhaps look at. At this point we are offering seven programs but we
are currently reviewing them, and I will take that idea to our educational
programmer. It is a very interesting one. This is certainly a media literate
generation. We see that all the time in our dealings with them and it might be a
very interesting discussion to hear their input on questions just like that.
8443 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Shepard, for your
presentation this afternoon.
8444 MR. SHEPARD: Thank you.
8445 THE CHAIRPERSON: We have now heard from 25 of the 31 folks who had
registered to intervene by telephone. I understand from our secretary that three
people have dropped out of participating for whatever reason: Mary Dolton,
Sandra Hanmer and Larry Gravelle. I understand despite several attempts, we have
not been able to reach Greg Barrett, Rod Ziegler and Dr. Alec Cooper. Is that
correct, Mr. Secretary?
8446 MR. CUSSONS: That is correct, Mr. Chairman.
8447 THE CHAIRPERSON: So with that then, that completes our teleconference
interventions for today. I want to just take the time to thank all of those who
have participated. I think despite a little bit of a hiccough at the start to
get this thing working it has worked quite well. I want to thank all of those
who did participate for their thoughtful and articulate interventions this
afternoon. I am sure that we will continue to develop this process to allow
people to more easily participate in the CRTC hearing process in the future.
8448 So I thank you all. That ends our proceeding then for today. We will
reconvene tomorrow morning at 0830 when we will again begin to hear from
appearing intervenors here in Hull. So that ends our proceeding for today. Thank
you very much.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1630, to resume on Tuesday, April 24,
2001 at 0830 / L'audience est ajournée à 1630, pour reprendre le mardi 24 avril
2001 at 0830