TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU
CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT / SUJET:
APPLICATIONS FOR FM RADIO LICENCES
DEMANDES DE LICENCES DE RADIO FM
|Hilton Vancouver Metrotown
||Hilton Vancouver Metrotown|
|Room Crystal III
||Salle Crystal III|
|6083 McKay Avenue
||6083, avenue McKay|
|November 24, 2000
||Le 24 novembre 2000|
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio-television and
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
Transcript / Transcription
APPLICATIONS FOR FM RADIO LICENCES
DEMANDES DE LICENCES DE RADIO FM
|BEFORE / DEVANT:|
||Chairperson / Présidente|
||Commissioner / Conseillère|
||Commissioner / Conseiller|
||Commissioner / Conseillère|
||Commissioner / Conseiller|
|ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:|
||Legal Counsel / Conseiller juridique|
||Hearing Manager / Gérant de l'audience|
||Secretary / Secrétaire|
|Hilton Vancouver Metrotown
||Hilton Vancouver Metrotown|
|Room Crystal III
||Salle Crystal III|
|6083 McKay Avenue
||6083, avenue McKay|
|November 24, 2000
||Le 24 novembre 2000|
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
|APPLICATION BY / APPLICATION PAR|
|Simon Fraser Campus Radio Society
|APPLICATION BY / APPLICATION PAR|
|Central Island Broadcasting Ltd.
|APPLICATION BY / APPLICATION PAR|
|Radio Malaspina Society
|APPLICATION BY / APPLICATION PAR|
|Rogers Broadcasting In-Chief Presentation
Vancouver, British Columbia / Vancouver (C-B)
--- Upon resuming on Friday, November 24, 2000
at 0900 / L'audience reprend le vendredi
24 novembre 2000 à 0900
7371 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
7372 We start precisely on time. We don't always end precisely on time, but
we start on time.
7373 Madam Secretary.
7374 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.
7375 Perhaps at the beginning, I might remind people who have cell phones, if
you could either turn them off or set them to vibrate, that would be very
7376 Our first item today is the application by Simon Fraser Campus Radio
Society for a broadcasting licence to carry on an English-language FM radio
programming undertaking at Simon Fraser University and surrounding area.
7377 The new station would operate on frequency 90.9 megahertz, with an
effective radiated power of 450 watts.
7378 The applicant proposes to replace the current carrier service it
operates at SFU with an FM station.
7379 Would you please begin whenever you are ready.
7380 Thank you.
APPLICATION / APPLICATION
7381 MR. THYVOLD: Thank you very much. We are very pleased to be here
7382 I would just like to quickly introduce our panel and then we will get on
with our presentation.
7383 My name is Magnus Thyvold, I am Station Manager of CJSF. I have been
involved in campus community radio for 14 years at this station and another
station in Victoria, and I am a current Vice-President and Past-President of the
National Campus and Community Radio Association.
7384 MS FETTERLY: Good morning. My name is Sherri Fetterly. I am currently on
the Board of Directors of the Simon Fraser Campus Radio Society. I have a
background in media and I have been involved in campus community radio for the
past seven years.
7385 MS ASPINWALL: Good morning. My name is Emily Aspinwall. I am the Spoken
Word Co-Ordinator at CJSF radio. I am a community activist and I have been
involved in campus community radio for about five years. I have been involved in
four different stations in both Ontario and British Columbia.
7386 MR. CHUNG: Hello. My name is Anthony Chung, I am the Program
Co-Ordinator at CJSF radio. I have been involved in campus community radio for
about three years now, during which time I have done many things including
weekly programming a radio show at CJSF radio.
7387 MR. BLAKE: Good morning. My name is Ed Blake and I have been involved
with campus radio since 1984, starting in Ontario and moving out here in 1990.
During that time I have been involved with CJSM, CITR and CFRO. Currently I am a
programmer at CFRO and CJSF and the Music Co-Ordinator there as well.
7388 MS TOY: Good morning. My name is Lisa Toy, I am a communications major
at SFU and I have been involved at CJSF for just over a year now as a general
volunteer and I am presently the Public Relations Co-ordinator at the
7389 MR. CHAN: Good morning. My name is Trevor Chan and I have been involved
with CJSF radio since 1989 and I am also a former member of the board of
7390 MR. CONDON: Good morning. My name is Sean Condon. I have been involved
at CJSF for the past year. I am the Training Co-ordinator at the station and a
programmer and got involved in campus community radio after 10 years in
mainstream media, in newspapers.
7391 MR. THYVOLD: Thank you.
7392 Just to get going here, then, the Simon Fraser Campus Radio Society has
come a long way to be here. We have committed enormous time, energy and
resources into preparations for this day. Next week, we celebrate our 26th
anniversary, marking 26 years of closed circuit service from CJSF, together
with 20 year of low power AM broadcast service to the campus and 15 years of
cable service to the surrounding communities.
7393 This date also marks many years of membership in both the National
Campus and Community Radio Association and the World Association of Community
Broadcasters. No less significant, it marks the passage of thousands of active
volunteers through the doors of the radio station.
7394 The Vancouver area is a large and diverse region and the need for
programming to serve the many communities within it remains great. CJSF has been
producing such programming for years, but its ability to serve these communities
has been limited by the shortness of its reach. In an era of media
consolidation, the diversity and independence of CJSF's programming is needed
more than ever.
7395 Our financial position is strong and stable. Core funding for operations
is provided through student fees voted by referendum. This is not likely to
change, for any changes to the funding must be passes by a new referendum of all
the undergraduate students. CJSF has historically received strong support from
SFU students. In the last referendum, in 1996, we received 75 per cent
support for the proposed increase in fees.
7396 The fee is based on a per-student amount. Increasing enrolment at SFU,
which is expected to continue in the future, has provided annual increases on
total fees received to offset cost increases due to inflation.
7397 The current level of funding is comfortably sufficient to meet the
station's operational needs for the foreseeable future. CJSF has a long history
of sound financial management and a proven ability to live and thrive within its
means. Additional fundraising initiatives will provide the means for growth but
are not essential to the success of our plans. We are ready to go.
7398 CJSF has been planning for FM for a long time. A special project budget
has been established for the purchase and installation of the transmitter
facility, and money has been set aside and a loan obtained to fund the project
and ensure that it will be completed on time. The money available provides for a
comfortable cushion to deal with unexpected expenses or problems. This funding
is ready to go right now and, if granted the licence, CJSF will be able to start
work on establishing its transmitter and tower immediately.
7399 As a campus community broadcaster, it is our goal to serve the community
in which we live. In order to effectively reach as many people as we can, we
need to be on the FM band. With our location on Burnaby Mountain we will reach
out to communities not currently served by other community-based radio. Because
of its location, we will be accessible to and draw more volunteers from the
surrounding areas such as Burnaby, New Westminster, Coquitlam, Port Moody, Port
Coquitlam, Surrey, and others, that will give the station a distinct voice
different from other Vancouver broadcasters.
7400 MS ASPINWALL: CJSF has had diverse and creative programming throughout
its history. It is a place where local communities, who have little access to
other forms of media, can work together to share news, culture, music and ideas.
This representation is essential in maintaining healthy and growing
7401 Our programmers have deep roots in the community and bring a wealth of
knowledge, enthusiasm and commitment to the station. Currently, 95 per cent
of our programming is produced by station volunteers.
7402 Campus and community radio is one of the few places that communities
such as the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered community, various ethnic
communities, the disabled community, as well as many others can have voices
given to the issues that they face.
7403 It also gives people the opportunity to get involved in the training,
programming and general running of the station. For example, the Community
Living Society, an organization that supports people living with disabilities,
has had a long-standing relationship with CJSF. With the assistance of their
support workers, we provide training and programming opportunities to the
clients of the Community Living Society.
7404 We currently fulfil our 25 per cent commitment to spoken word
programming and are continually strengthening its quality and diversity. We see
the FM licence as part of this process of building.
7405 We have recently created and hired a part-time position to focus solely
on spoken word programming. Spoken word programming takes a lot of time and work
to produce even a short segment. With an FM licence we will have more people to
draw on to put together programming and volunteers will be inspired and
motivated by the increased listenership.
7406 Spoken word programming at CJSF covers a wide array of issues, including
environmental and transportation, women's rights, First Nations, campus-based,
alternative health, and more. Interviews, panel discussions and news highlight
under-represented stories, perspectives and ideas. We also sponsor and promote
local speaking events and air them as part of our spoken word component.
7407 We have several collective shows that work together to produce weekly
programs. These include news, arts and entertainment, house music, as swell as a
magazine-style show covering local social justice issues. This provides
volunteers an excellent opportunity to learn to work together with others, and
also create more effectively produced programming.
7408 We have an entire department at CJSF that devotes itself to the local
arts, culture and entertainment scene. The department organizes volunteers to do
reviews and interviews in all areas of the arts, including theatre, music, film,
poetry, literature, and dance. A main theme is the promotion of emerging, local
and under-represented artists. This is one of the few on-air opportunities these
artists have to express their works and themselves.
7409 On FM our arts programming will include such things as radio plays,
on-air radio art and more live local performances.
7410 One highlight of our current arts programming is our weekly poetry show,
with Kier and Carolina. It features readings and interviews with local poets,
and helps these artists share their works with a larger audience.
7411 We also feature community calendars, with local arts events, as well as
public service announcements concerning community meetings, speakers and other
local non-profit events.
7412 We have a position at CJSF devoted to soliciting, compiling and making
these community announcements available to programmers. We encourage
organizations to come into the station, to help in producing recorded
announcements about the services their organization offers. This helps promote
their work and gives them the opportunity to come into CJSF and realize that
this is their station and they can be a part of it in a variety of ways.
7413 MR. CHUNG: Another position at CJSF works on strengthening connections
with non-profit organizations and letting them know what we offer. We have had
great response to this initiative. Recently, the New Westminster Purpose Society
came to us and proposed the idea of doing focused programming for World Aids
7414 CJSF regularly produces special days of programming, which are unique
opportunities to highlight in-depth local perspectives on a particular subject.
This day-long focus is an excellent way to make connections with people in the
community working on these issues and to thoroughly investigate all angles of
the subject. These special days of programming occur several times throughout
the year and are produced by our volunteers in conjunction with the affiliated
7415 Two upcoming examples are World Aids Day on December 1st and Working to
End Violence Against Women on December 6th.
7416 The community response and involvement that develops through our special
days of programming is often phenomenal. Of particular note is the recent
National Campus/Community Radio Conference declaration for an annual National
Hip Hop week. This development came directly from the overwhelming success of
CJSF's Hip Hop Week created two years ago by volunteers at CJSF.
7417 The music programming on our airwaves is creative, innovative and
diverse. We are always encouraging people to bring in new and original
programming ideas. The nature of our programming allows us to provide airtime
for the inclusion of many musical styles not available anywhere else on the FM
7418 We have several programs that combine spoken word and music and these
are breaking new ground in radio programming. One example of this is our
Thursday evening show, Bad Music for Bad People, where Alex and Jovan blend an
original mix of alternative economic and political information with a range of
7419 With an FM licence we also plan to expand our ethnic programming. We
know that there are dozens of currently unserved ethnic communities in our area
and we have begun to more actively reach out to them.
7420 We are in contact with other campus and community station in the Lower
Mainland. We often work together on projects and share resources. We know that
CJSF will be able to reach and be accessible to physical locations and
communities that these stations are not able to serve. We work to complement
these stations, not to compete. CJSF works to diversity our programming beyond
what is already offered by both these stations.
7421 With an FM licence our programming would be able to reach out farther
into the community, and be accessible to thousands of people. We have tremendous
resources, and see the potential to be more known and available, as a great
asset to the community.
7422 MR. BLAKE: Our music department is enviable in a number of ways. In the
music industry, we are regarded as one of THE stations to service. Due to this
servicing CJSF boasts a vast archival collection where its size is matched only
by its accessibility.
7423 The on-air room provides an array of music that represents any number of
different genres and dissimilar artists. This is very new music, most of which
is less than four months old. There are nearly 10,000 music selections for
programmers to choose from in the on-air room alone, and within this large
number there is sufficient representation of Canadian artists to satisfy the
needs of both the programmers and the CRTC. Given its reputation, CJSF is one
THE places where listeners are able to access and hear all sorts of new and
7424 The music department is concerned foremost with developing local talent,
though significant efforts are taken to help regional and national talent as
well. Airplay for these artists is not limited to polished offerings from
established bands or record labels.
7425 By its very nature music not static. CJSF would rather be getting
homemade or independent recordings, not only to give the artists exposure but to
remain current on the trends that determine the evolution of music.
7426 Making independent recordings accessible to programmers, who in turn
give them airplay, helps us develop local and Canadian talent. The emerging
artists are given exposure that would most likely not be given otherwise.
7427 MS TOY: CJSF is also involved in developing and organizing various
community-oriented events. With these events, we strive to bring increased
exposure to emerging artists and groups.
7428 We are best known for our weekly Live Band Nights held at the student
Pub. The aim of this event is to provide exposure for local independent
musicians. This event, though only several months old, has received overwhelming
response, both from the musicians involved and the people in attendance.
7429 Other events we have held include Hip Hop Hunger, Propriosessions and
weekly DJ nights off campus.
7430 We also host a series of outdoor broadcasts on campus, which we use to
expose the community to non-mainstream media and support events held by other
groups. With an FM licence, we look forward to sponsoring and developing even
more events both on and off campus.
7431 CJSF also strives to provide access to all ages and groups in its
vicinity. Open houses are held each semester, where we invite high school
students, community groups and SFU students to attend.
7432 We are also a part of the Mini-University program each summer, where we
orient youths aged 8 to 14 years to broadcasting and alternative media. We also
accept several high school career placements each semester, where they function
as programmers and assistants in the daily activities of the station.
7433 MR. CONDON: There is continual interest from people on campus and in the
surrounding community who want to participate in existing programming, bring in
proposals for new shows, or simply learn how to use station facilities in an
effort to better know what goes on at CJSF.
7434 Once grounded in the mandate and opportunities of CJSF in volunteer
orientation, prospective programmers enter a four-part training program. The
mechanics of speaking on-air and working the broadcast board are of undeniable
importance. But, more to the point, training sessions reinforce the commitment
and responsibility of volunteering at CJSF.
7435 Trainees at CJSF are introduced to the stations code of conduct, CRTC
and Broadcast Act regulations and other legal responsibilities of being on-air.
Prospective programmers are also acquainted with music and program log
requirements and with our own minimum requirements for airing public service
7436 Before completing training, volunteers make a half-hour demo tape in
which their proficiency with studio equipment and their awareness of station
mandate and requirements are put to the test. Throughout this training process,
volunteers are shown the importance of responsiveness and respect. Someone is
7437 Once training is completed, volunteers may undergo further training in
interviewing and spoken word programming and in studio production. All
volunteers who go on to be programmers sign a Promise of Performance document.
New and existing programs are regularly monitored by the programming department
and the programming subcommittee, to ensure volunteers are meeting quality
standards taught in training.
7438 Our training has produced some very passionate and dedicated
programmers. The accomplishments of many volunteers in producing award-winning
programming, as was the case with CJSF's Get A Job series in 1996, and going on
to work in other media is the result, in part, of the training we provide.
7439 MR. CHAN: My name is Trevor. I am here to change the tone of the
7440 I am basically here today just to give a personal account of the
experiences I have had with CJSF radio. So I guess you can think of my
presentation of sort of a case study of the different volunteers who have been
at the station over the last couple of years.
7441 I first started at CJSF in 1989 when my high school radio club had a
show called The Youth Show up at the station, and we would be up there every
Saturday morning at 10:00 in the morning. Well, it was supposed to be a talk
show, but, I don't know about you, but most teenagers don't seem to be awake at
10:00 in the morning so we ended up changing this talk show into more of a
music show and we just ended up playing all our favourite songs.
7442 A year later I graduated and I started attending Simon Fraser
University. School can really get you down sometimes and so to escape the
vigours of academia what I ended up doing was spending a lot of time at the
7443 So in 1992 my brother and myself, we started a radio show and every
Friday night -- and we still do it to this day and now it is the longest
running urban music program in Vancouver's history.
7444 But during this time I did more stuff than just program. What I also did
was, I was urban music director for a little while. I helped the radio station
establish like a streaming media service, so we are doing MP3 streaming, which
when we first started it was pretty cool. It was pretty rebellious back then.
Not too many people were doing it, but we are cutting edge guys.
7445 I have also been the Treasurer on the Board of Directors in the last
little while. It is more of an official capacity.
7446 So despite all this experience, I never really had actively pursued a
career in the broadcast media industry, it was something I just did for fun. But
I don't know, every time I have switched careers and done new things I have
always had a media component to it.
7447 So anyway, for the past three years I have been involved in the hi-tech
sector and in streaming media, which is a pretty cool experience. This past
summer I actually quit my job at an Internet start-up. Now, it wasn't because my
stock was doing bad or anything like that, it was, you know, I just --
someone just gave me the opportunity to become a rock star actually --
--- Laughter / Rires
7448 MR. CHAN: -- so I checked this out.
7449 My brother and myself, we made a demo tape earlier in the year and we
shopped it around to a couple of independent record labels and, believe it or
not, some crazy label back in New York actually gave us a chance to become
musicians. So for the past few months that is what we have been working on.
7450 But that is actually like more of a passion, like a labour of love
really. I actually have a couple of day jobs as well, which are actually
--- Laughter / Rires
7451 MR. CHAN: You know how it is, musicians can never become a musician
full-time, you always had to have like three day jobs. That's the way it is,
right. So in my day job I am actually a video and new media producer and so we
have recently created -- it's like an animated music video geared towards
Internet. It went well actually and it is being prominently displayed on one of
the top Internet sites out there. We also made a broadcast version which should
be airing on TV stations across the world, which is pretty.
7452 Anyway, okay, enough. I think I have been spending too much time here
just stroking my own ego and listening to my own words, so I want to --
there is actually like a point to my speech here.
--- Laughter / Rires
7453 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Good.
7454 MR. CHAN: So here's my point. Here's my point.
7455 My point is, there is a lot of creative and talented people who have
volunteered at CJSF over the years. And I don't know what it is with this place,
but there is a lot of creative and frenetic energy that goes on. I think it is a
great training ground for people to get experience in the media entertainment
and information world.
7456 Okay. Now, back to me again. I just want to end this off by saying, you
know, I have spent a third of my life at the radio station. Like my entire adult
life I have spent at CJSF and, for better or for worse, it has made me the
person that I am today.
7457 Anyway, I am going to pass this off to Sherri Fetterly who is going to
end off the presentation today on a better note than me.
7458 MS FETTERLY: I will add the conclusion.
7459 With more and more radio stations being owned by fewer and fewer
players, the importance of independent community-based broadcasters such as CJSF
has never been more apparent. The CRTC has identified preserving diversity
within the radio market as a key goal of its policies, and this can only be done
by making room for more independent voices.
7460 We bring a passionate commitment to community-oriented radio and provide
an important local alternative to the offerings of commercial and public
broadcasters. CJSF's role is to provide programming to serve many ethnic,
social, economic and musical communities. We are doing just that, and doing it
7461 All of our members are volunteers who do this for the love of it. They
give their time, not only to belong to the community that is created through the
broadcast waves, but also to the a part of the multi-faceted organization that
7462 We have the experience and resources of a diverse and committed group of
people able to bring great radio to the Lower Mainland. Putting CJSF on the FM
dial will not only add one new voice to the radio scene, but many.
7463 Thank you very much.
7464 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
7465 Thank you, Trevor, for your refreshing --
7466 Commissioner Pennefather will begin.
7467 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chair.
7468 Good morning, everyone. I'm jealous. I think I want to go back to
university. That is what I say to my son who has just started at Ottawa U., but
he is not so sure why I would want to do that, but he is not up much earlier
than 10 year olds still. I don't understand it.
7469 I wanted to expand on some of the points you made this morning. In fact,
you have provided us with some important clarification expansion on your
supplementary brief, and thank you for that.
7470 But I would like to go into a couple of areas you have already touched
on, some rather general questions and then I have some specifics about your
7471 I think what you have underlined this morning as your understanding of
the role of campus radio, you are not new to the game, but since the new policy
came out, it does just give us a chance to really highlight how that policy
comes into action through approaches such as you are taking.
7472 That policy, as you well know, looks to Campus radio to really provide
diversity in the system, both in music and in spoken word, to provide an
alternative to what is available on commercial radio on the CBC and to really
give a voice to the communities that you serve
7473 So let's explore those a little bit, more in terms of your particular
7474 In the programming, And today you talked about both the music and spoken
word aspects, so if we could just explore that a little bit more.
7475 On the music side, you described today your music approach and you do so
in your supplementary brief. As a campus station you are involved in a variety
of genre and some of those genres are world music, jazz, blues, categories that
we have heard a little bit about in the last week in terms of that kind of
music, urban as well, being available throughout the commercial systems, even
now or potentially.
7476 Could you explain and clarify it for us again why your approach is
different when we look at the words? We see similar words, world beat, jazz,
rhythm and blues, hip hop, urban. What is it that makes the campus radio
7477 MR. BLAKE: Firstly, we are always looking for more volunteers, if you
feel like coming.
--- Laughter / Rires
7478 MR. BLAKE: What makes us different is, first off, the sheer
accessibility and the numbers available to -- of numbers of recordings
available to people. We don't have a specific playlist of 50 or 100 or 150
songs for the programmers to pick from. Everything that is available is made
available to the programmers.
7479 Also, the turnover is fairly quick. Recordings don't have a chance to
stay for more than four to six months before they are taken from the on-air and
put in the library.
7480 I make no distinction on any type of genre or anything like that, so we
get it, it goes out, if you can get a chance to listen to it or play it.
7481 Does that about answer you?
7482 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Yes, I think so.
7483 The archival point you raised this morning, so you have an archival
collection, but then you also say that it is very new music which is not more
than four months old.
7484 MR. BLAKE: Yes, right. The archive, that is the library that everything
7485 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Okay, so it's both.
7486 MR. BLAKE: Yes.
7487 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So what you are saying is that therefore you
have this massive collection, you are not driven by the more recent new
7488 MR. CHUNG: I would like to add a few things.
7489 First off is that a lot of our music programmers are people who are very
involved in the music community themselves, and they go out and seek new and
alternative music that is not highly available. One term that we use in the hip
hop community is "digging in the crates" where you are actually looking for
artists that nobody knows of.
7490 Part of the reason a lot of people get involved in campus community
radio is the ability to have free form in the programming that they are able to
do and break new artists to the radio community, in a sense being like "Yes, I'm
on top of this game and you come to me to find out what is new and what is
exciting and what is emerging."
7491 That is part of a different approach from commercial radio, is that
people are not held to advertising dollars or anything, so they are given more
of a free range to explore deeper into the music shows they do.
7492 MR. THYVOLD: One of the things is that a lot of our programmers are hard
core enthusiasts for the kind of music they are playing. Part of what this means
is that they are on the very forefront of what is new. Artists, that unless you
are really interested in that kind of music, even if you are a real music
enthusiast in general, if you are not really into that kind of music you are not
going to know this artist because, you know, they just have a record out on a
tiny label and this is someone who read magazines that are obscure, much less
artists that are obscure.
7493 So a lot of our programs are very far out on the leading edge of what is
happening in any particular genre of music.
7494 I think in terms of the general programming we do, you will find any
kind of emerging music will always show up as a program on a campus community
station such as ours. Months, if not -- well, years usually before you will
ever make it sway into the mainstream radio.
7495 Campus community radio stations have been programming world music, which
we now have some stations wanting to get on -- commercial stations wanting
to get on the air since the dawn of campus community radio. They have been
programming that -- we have been programming that kind of music since
before people decided world beat or world was a good term for it. It was just
music for other cultures. And that is one of the big differences.
7496 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Right. Thanks.
7497 It is important to hear the approach behind the words, because we hear a
lot, format, categories, all the rest of it, alternative, and I think it is not
only with your experience but what you are planning to do with your new proposed
station, it is important that we understand what is behind it.
7498 The other thing you mentioned this morning and in your supplementary
brief was how both your music and spoken word complement CFRO and CITR as per
the campus policy, but could you give me a specific example of how that is
7499 MS ASPINWALL: Well, we are in touch with both CITR and Co-Op Radio. I am
familiar with their programming. So whenever we get a new proposal we don't just
look at our own station, we look at the other stations as well. CFRO has
a -- like if you look at their programming, and we are familiar with their
programming and they have a focus on jazz, blues and sort of classical, other
kinds of music like that, and they do that programming and they do that really
well. You know, it is sort of a focus of theirs.
7500 They also have a lot of genre-oriented shows. We have more shows that
aren't just specifically a jazz show or something else. We sort of create a mix
of different kinds of music and things.
7501 MR. CHUNG: Could you repeat that for me, please?
7502 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You mentioned in your supplementary brief and
this morning that you complement, not compete with CFRO and CITR. In other
words, it is interesting to hear from your point of view how you complement
stations which are similar in mandate, as they are, so we can get a specific
example of that.
7503 MS ASPINWALL: I think an important thing to note, too, is about in terms
of spoken word programming, specifically about programming in general is the
idea of serving a community. So if we look at CITR, for example, and you go out
to Burnaby Mountain, you can't technically hear very often -- like the
technical range or CITR, you often can't hear it.
7504 The idea of serving a community is the fact that we know what is going
on in that community. We talk about the issues that affect people in that
community. We are talking to the ethnic communities in the surrounding areas. We
are talking about issues within that community, and that idea of serving the
community, bringing volunteers up in that area and hence serving the community,
it is not just who can hear it, but it is who we are serving.
7505 So that I think is a very important point in distinguishing us in terms
of who we are going to serve with the differences between CITR and CFRO.
7506 I think also it is important note and to mention that there is such a
wide range of programming that is possible. I mean, you just let your mind go on
what kind of programming is possible and that is not out there.
7507 I mean, if you look at the programming on three stations right now, it
is all quite distinct in itself. I mean, just because you are a campus community
station doesn't mean you have the same kind of programming. Even if you are
doing a hip hop show there are different, you know, ways and focuses and kinds
of things you can do within that show that even though it is the same kind of
music you have a different focus or you mix spoken word and music. I'm just sort
of saying the ideas -- I mean the potential is great.
7508 MR. CHUNG: I would like to actually pick up on that point because she
touched on the hip hop and that is something I am really familiar with.
7509 Down at Co-Op Radio the hip hop programming tends to be more of the
mainstream commercial artists that are played on the airwaves and that tends to
be the focus they have. We are talking more of -- I don't know if you are
familiar with a few of them, Nelly and Puff Daddy. I don't know if those names
mean anything to you. You might have children that listen to that.
7510 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I think even I do occasionally.
7511 MR. CHUNG: Oh, you listen to it too.
--- Laughter / Rires
7512 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Amazing as it seems.
7513 MR. CHUNG: Wow!
7514 And at CITR down at UBC, they tend to have programs that focus between
old school breaks and the original forms of music which hip hop has sampled from
and old school hip hop, meaning eras of '88-'89 all the way through to '93. And
at CJSF we have -- our hip hop shows tend to be a bit different.
7515 We have one that specifically is mixing spoken word and hip hop music by
taking in-depth analyses at different cultural aspects of the hip hop culture,
and we also do it a little differently in our shows because a lot of our shows
do mixing, which is a new and a different approach to presenting the music as
opposed to just playing it over the airwaves for everyone to hear.
7516 I will just end it there.
7517 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
7518 I wanted to pursue the discussion from a slightly different angle now in
spoken word and music. As you have mentioned, and as the policy requires, campus
stations play a very important role in cultural diversity and reflecting the
cultural diversity of the communities you serve.
7519 I think I would like to get a little more specific about how you do
7520 Which are the ethnocultural groups with CJSF who will be serving on
campus and in the communities? Can you tell us specifically which groups you
will be serving with your proposed new station?
7521 MS ASPINWALL: I just wanted to mention off the top that we presently
have a Latin American music and issues show, it is a Spanish and English show
that covers both news and issues and music to the Latin American community, and
also have an Arabian news, music and issues show as well.
7522 But in terms of the communities within the surrounding areas of Burnaby
Mountain, there is a wide array of South Asian communities, a Filipino community
and a variety of other Asian communities which are not presently served by other
7523 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Have you done some research to confirm what
you are proposing to do?
7524 MS ASPINWALL: We have looked up census data in terms of who lives in
which region and things like that, if that is what you are referring to.
7525 Also, in terms of community contact, we have been working on a project
recently of getting in touch with papers from the -- like community papers
and making ourselves known to those communities through their papers and getting
in touch with them so they know that we exist and making initial contact, like
relationship through those papers. Because a lot of communities, you know, that
is one source of media for them and communication is the community papers.
7526 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: One of the ways of looking at this is
7527 MR. THYVOLD: Could I just clarify something?
7528 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead.
7529 MR. THYVOLD: One of the ways we approach this issue, because we have a
very small staff, we have two and-a-half positions to run the whole station on
our full programming week and a number of volunteers. So as much as we would
love to be always out in the community in person soliciting all we can, part of
the way we do it, as Emily just said, is we try to get our message out that we
are there and we are available and then we are very responsive to what comes
back to us from the community.
7530 So we try to make a real point of -- we get the message out there
that, you know, opportunities are available and then we are responsive to what
requests come back to us, as well as doing some more direct reaching out.
7531 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Is this what you mean in your supplementary
brief and today by saying that you would expand your service to ethnocultural
groups based on, and I quote "the interest and availability of volunteers"?
7532 MR. THYVOLD: Yes. We can't -- you know, I mean if we don't have
people from that community, we can't sort of create it out of nothing. You don't
serve a community by not involving its own members, so we try to solicit
interest from the different communities and then see where we go
7533 MS ASPINWALL: Just on this, I think it is important to note that this
will be -- we are just limited within our reach right now so it is very
difficult for most people on cable and the Internet and on residence, I mean
that is where we are listenable to at the moment.
7534 So we see this as a reach out into the community and that is --
part of this will happen because people will be able to hear, like just to tune
in to the -- like be able to get on their radio dial and tune into us and
be hearing the fact that we exist and through that be able to expand in terms of
letting people know that we are there and offering the service and be working on
that reaching out.
7535 And in terms of ethnic programming as well, I think it is also important
to note that 20 per cent of CFRO programming is ethnic-based programming. I
think they have about 12 to 15 different programs on their station. In terms of
serving those communities, we will very much liaise with what already exists in
terms of their programming, specifically because they do a lot more ethnic
programming than CITR, for example, in terms of which communities are served and
talking to them about their experience with those different communities as
7536 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So, as I understand it, if you receive a
licence for this broader frequency, you would be increasing your efforts to
7537 MR. CHUNG: Actually, we are currently working hard to increase it right
now and one result of that is we have a Quebecois 101 show that tries to serve
the Mallardville area in our locality.
7538 But, as mentioned before, one of the difficulties is the limited scope
of accessibility to our airwaves at the current moment. And a lot of people,
whether they be community members or students, often feel that they don't have
the proper time or resources to dedicate themselves currently to broadcasting on
CJSF and with the increased scope of the FM frequency I believe that a lot more
people will see the value that we provide in being a campus community
broadcaster and we anticipate a big, large rush from the same people that we
have been approaching for a while to finally come to us and say "Yes, we would
like to get involved."
7539 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Let's just keep going on this, just for a bit,
because you have connected your reach and service to ethnocultural communities
with your volunteers, and the campus policy also requires you to reflect
cultural diversity in your employment practices as well as programming.
7540 In looking at your volunteer training program in Appendix 4 to your
application -- I think it came with the deficiency letter of
July 26 -- unless I am misreading it -- and you explained that
volunteer policy this morning as well -- it seems to be aimed mostly at
7541 What steps would you be taking with this new -- if you had this new
frequency, to expand that volunteer training?
7542 Can you give me some specific ideas of how you would do that to reach
out to the communities, since you, yourselves, have said your service would
largely -- is very connected with the interest and availability of
volunteers from those communities?
7543 So how do you bring the two together?
7544 MR. THYVOLD: Well, one of the things we would be doing upon getting the
FM would obviously be making a major effort within the community to tell people
that we are now available. Part and parcel of that effort would be, not only are
we available on the airwaves but we are available for people's
7545 So that we would be going out -- you know, we have just been
talking recently within the station about going out and setting up a table at
various community events -- of all manners, not just serving ethnic
communities but of all manners in the communities surrounding Simon Fraser.
Setting up tables, information tables where we can talk to people, where they
can ask us questions, where we can, you know, explain just how they can get
7546 So we would be getting right out in the community and making a real
effort, both to attract volunteers and also, of course, attract listeners by
letting people know we are available.
7547 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And one of the aspects of this is the
competitive situation for this frequency, and this frequency, as you say, is one
that will give you broader audience. So I am obviously interested in pursuing
how you will, in your turn, take advantage of that frequency to fulfil your
mandate as a campus station in a new way, other than the way you are currently
7548 On that, just to another question. In answer to a deficiency question in
that same letter July 26, you say you currently carry 1 per cent
ethnic programming, of which half is third language.
7549 You can increase that third language programming, as per the policy. Do
you have plans to do so?
7550 MS ASPINWALL: Yes. I mean, with talking about serving the ethnic
communities, I think that is what I was talking about, increasing third language
programming. Because I think that is -- if you really want to serve an
ethnic community, speak in their first language and have that programming
reflect the issues and things going on in that community and music and things
7551 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: The key, then, is your approach to programming
and your volunteer program, your volunteer training program, and that is how you
get the people who will help you do that. Is that correct? Because your whole
thesis I think, as I understand it, is your ethnocultural programming largely
determined by the volunteers that you are able to attract to work with you, and
the volunteers are largely from the student community now. I think 75 per
cent of them are from the student community.
7552 So how do we -- it is important that we see how that balance is
going to be changed.
7553 MR. THYVOLD: I got interrupted so I lost my train of thought there, but
the thing is -- just give me a moment while I get back on track here.
7554 As I say, we can't create programming for a community that isn't
represented within our volunteers. You know, a basic thesis of all our
programming, but I think particularly our ethnic programming or other
programming, focuses at a specific community.
7555 I will broaden that definition to include communities such as the gay
and lesbian community and others, is that these communities should be speaking
for themselves. You know, the idea isn't that CJSF -- CJSF puts a show on
for these communities. That is not the idea. The idea is that people come from
the communities to put a show on for themselves. In that sense we are
facilitators of a community speaking to itself and speaking for itself. It is
7556 So the fact that our ability to serve these communities is based on our
abilities to draw volunteers for those communities is pretty much the point.
7557 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: That is why I asked about the volunteer
program, because it seems key.
7558 MR. THYVOLD: Yes.
7559 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: The training program is very complete in and
of itself, except it is largely, as I read the application, succeeding at
getting students as opposed to more of the ethnic community. So that is why we
are asking the question.
7560 MR. THYVOLD: Well, the training program itself isn't focused at
students. I think that might have crept into the response to that question
simply because with the limit to our signal, in a real -- our presence on
the campus, because we are right there, we just have to walk out the front door
and we can talk to people, is, I think, quite high, whereas because of the limit
of our signal our presence in the community is not nearly as high as we would
like it and because of our limited resources it is really hard to get over that
obstacle of -- you know, we can't --
7561 It is not enough for us to just tell people that we are out there and
they can tune us in on the dial, we have to go out there and explain to them how
to hook their stereo up to cable. We give out cable adaptors to make it easy,
but I would bet that despite people's good intentions and their general interest
to do the work and hook us up and then tune us in, you know, we put the effort
out there but a lot of those cable adapters I'm sure end up on the kitchen table
7562 I mean, it's not just tune us in and go, it is people have to make a
real effort and go through several steps to get to us. So, as I say, our
presence on the campus, we are able to keep that quite high despite those
limitations. It is a lot harder to get over that obstacle in the community. With
a signal, that is going to change.
7563 MS ASPINWALL: I think an important note here, too, that people often
forget is that students as a community are often members of these ethnic
communities, are often members of the gay, lesbian, bisexual transgender
community. So when we are talking about that I think it is an important thing to
remember, that these people leave campus and go home and live within the
communities surrounding the area.
7564 So I think to make the -- there is definitely a distinction to be
made between student participation and community participation, but I don't want
to forget the idea that serving students is just one thing in that vein.
7565 Also, just a couple of other notes in terms of ways.
7566 We have been working on trying to reach out to the community in terms of
letting people -- we have a non-profit outreach co-ordinator whose job it
is basically to contact non-profit organizations and ethnocultural organizations
and let them know, "Okay, we are here. You can bring your public service
announcement to us. Would you like to make an ongoing recorded card about the
services you offer? We are having a special day of programming."
7567 It is always a great way for people -- for example, the World AIDS
Day program we are doing right now, we are getting in touch with a lot of local
HIV and AIDS organizations and letting them know that we are doing programming.
They may have never heard of us before, and then they realize "Okay. Well, this
is a place where if we have a big issue we can send a fax, we can give you a
call to get an interview on your airwaves. This is sort of our radio station
7568 And certainly getting that idea out there is a process, but it is very
difficult to do that with our present service because people don't -- you
don't feel it out in the community because it's not on FM.
7569 MR. CHUNG: One thing that currently speaks, I believe, to what you are
trying to get at, is our show is -- we have a show called Bridge to Chinese
Music, and this programmer has actually put in a proposal to our programming
subcommittee which we will be reviewing in the upcoming week, and his idea is to
create a Chinese resource, both library as far as information and music goes,
and then he wants to, I believe, create brochures in Chinese written language so
that he can reach out more to the artists, the community members within the
Chinese community within our locality.
7570 I think that really speaks towards not only our effort, but our
volunteer's efforts towards diversifying both our programming and our volunteer
base at CJSF radio.
7571 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
7572 Let me turn to some specific questions about your application.
7573 The first, in your application you indicated that the broadcast week
will average 112 hours. The Commission policy is that it will generally
expect campus stations to broadcast full time, that is a minimum of 126 hours.
There is room for some flexibility, so what special circumstances exists in the
case for CJSF-FM?
7574 MR. THYVOLD: I think that figure came out of some of the current access
difficulties we have on the campus. It is a combination of getting to the campus
as a programmer if you don't live on campus, and again it is the limitation of
7575 One of the big rewards for -- and I will get onto the next step, I
am just explaining where it starts from. But one of the big rewards for
programmers is, of course, the knowledge that people are out there
7576 So under our current circumstances as a cable broadcaster, it is harder
for people to sort of really feel the reward, that there is enough --
really know that people are listening. We are not doing BBM surveys or anything
that say "Oh, X number of people are listening at this time."
7577 So it is difficult for people to sometimes feel that getting out of bed
at 4:00 in the morning to do an early show when they could just as well do a
show in the afternoon is worth their while.
7578 It is our intent, you know, as quickly as we are able to actually
expand -- well, ultimately to 24 hours a day. I wouldn't want to say
exactly how long that will take, but I have no doubt that we could expand to 20
or 21 hours a day within a fairly short period of time. I think once we are on
the FM dial, then -- and I know this from experience. I spent several years
as manager and program director at CFUV Victoria at the University of Victoria,
and once people know that the listeners are out there, you know, it is really
not even that hard to get programmers to do a 3:00 a.m. to 6:00 a.m. slot.
7579 It is not my idea of the best time to do a show, but you would be
surprised how many people are that eager to get on the radio when they know
people are listening. The converse is true when they are not so certain.
7580 So I guess what I'm saying is that it is our intent to expand our hours
of programming as rapidly as we are able. I think the figure that was put in
there was a sort of conservative figure to reflect our present difficulties, but
I think we would have no problem expanding that very quickly.
7581 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So currently on the carrier, current station,
how many hours are you carrying now?
7582 MR. THYVOLD: Sixteen hours a day.
7583 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And you explained the circumstances for that.
You say the same circumstances will be there for CJSF-FM, the new proposed
station, but you would expand that.
7584 MR. THYVOLD: Well, I think it will actually -- I think probably it
will -- you know, even as we approach FM I think the sense of people
knowing that something big is coming up that we will even be able to start
expanding before then.
7585 When that application was put together, it was worked on based on the
experience people had within the station. Personally I wasn't at the station at
the time those figures were put together, but I think they were worried about
trying to make commitments based on their experience at CJSF that they thought
might be difficult to meet, whereas I think we all -- you know, just seeing
the excitement that is coming up with this hearing and stuff -- feel all
quite confident that we can be a lot more ambitious than we thought we
7586 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thanks.
7587 I have a question now about music programming -- I'm sorry?
7588 MR. BLAKE: I just wanted to add one quick little point there.
7589 If you live in the area you will know that the transit system is
extending the skytrain to almost the foot of Burnaby Mountain. Once that is in
place it will make SFU even more accessible than UBC, and that will also
increase accessibility to the station as well for programmers.
7590 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
7591 On the music programming, to clarify Canadian content in
Category 3, would Simon Fraser Community Radio Society accept a condition
of licence that requires a minimum of 12 per cent of the Category 3
music during the broadcast week be Canadian?
7592 MR. CHUNG: That's the new policy?
7593 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: That is correct.
7594 MR. CHUNG: Yes.
7595 Currently, actually, our Canadian content percentages for
Category 3 go above and beyond 12 per cent, and with our goal to
increase more ethnic programming -- actually I think is a separate category
7596 But yes, we are currently at that level and we are going to make sure
that we are above that level and staying there.
7597 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So you wouldn't have a problem the COL?
7598 MR. CHUNG: No.
7599 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
7600 Another clarification -- I wasn't sure if you cleared it up in the
presentation this morning or not -- concerns the percentage of student
7601 The new policy states that licensees must indicate the role their
stations will play in training students and other volunteers, as well as the
approximate percentage of total programming that will be produced by students to
fulfil requirements of courses they are taking.
7602 Your description of training is very complete, it was very complete this
morning, but what percentage of total programming is produced by students?
7603 MR. THYVOLD: By students in --
7604 MS ASPINWALL: For their courses or just --
7605 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Yes. As you know, the policy in
paragraph 63 speaks to the percentage of total programming that will be
produced by students to fulfil requirements of courses they are taking.
7606 MS ASPINWALL: So, for example, they are taking Communications 241
and part of their course is to do a program at CJSF? Is that -- that is
what was meant by that?
7607 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Yes, I would think so.
7608 MS ASPINWALL: As far as I am aware --
7609 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: It is an example but, in effect, what the
policy is saying, I think you mentioned this morning 95 per cent of our
programming is produced by station volunteers, but I don't think that speaks to
the percentage of total programming produced by students.
7610 MS ASPINWALL: Well, a lot of that is produced by students, but as far as
I am aware none of that is for courses. I just don't know if -- I'm trying
to make the distinguishment.
7611 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Yes. Well, technically that is what the policy
requests that you -- says that you should provide as information.
7612 So you don't know what percentage of total programming is done by
students or students who are taking courses?
7613 MS ASPINWALL: Who are -- okay, I'm confused.
7614 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Do you want to come back to that point,
7615 MS ASPINWALL: I think so.
7616 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: It is a technicality in the campus policy that
asks that you indicate what percentage of total programming students are
producing, and it also says that the students are fulfilling requirements of
courses they are taking. So if you want to get --
7617 MR. THYVOLD: Well, none of our programming comprises part of one of the
courses at the university. Well, for starters, that wouldn't necessarily be
something even entirely under our control because we don't get to decide things
are part of courses, that is the university's choice.
7618 As far as percentages, I would probably estimate that about 75 per
cent of our programming is currently provided by students. I would probably
guess, based on my own experience at CFUV, that once we are on FM and we are
drawing more community volunteers out probably move down to approximately
50 per cent.
7619 It is not something that is stable, though, either. You know, it moves
around. I know from years of experience that it even moves around seasonally.
You have a lot more -- you know, the balance shifts in the summer season
when there are fewer students on campus than during the two terms when there are
lots of students.
7620 We are not -- while we are located at the university, we are not
directly -- we are not an instructional station. We are not directly
affiliated with them in the sense of providing course work for students, and I
don't think necessarily that is our purpose as a station.
7621 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: No, it's the flip-flop a little bit. If you
could give a sense of how much of the student programming is related to courses
that students are taking. It sort of tells us what is driving the training
program, what is driving the student programming.
7622 MR. THYVOLD: One thing is that an awfully high percentage of our
students, and even the people here on the panel are in fact communications
students, so their involvement at CJSF does directly relate to their course of
study, not in a formalized sense but in the sense that it complements the
education they are getting.
7623 Lisa is a communications major, Anthony was in communications. There are
several people in the back of the room here who are out to support us today who
are communications majors.
7624 In some cases it does directly relate. We have people on numerous
occasions as part of their communications course call me up and say "As part of
our course work we have been instructed to produce a press release", and so they
go out and they produce a press release for a real organization, sometimes they
come and do one for us, or a whole press kit in fact, or they do it for another
organization and then they complete their press release and they say "Well, can
you do this press release as a public service announcement on the station." So
they take their course work and it actually goes out in the real world instead
of just staying in their books.
7625 So in a formal sense in ways that we can -- that for a practical
purpose are easy to attach a number to, you know, 2 per cent of our
programming somehow -- I mean, a lot of it happens on a personal level
through students, you know what students are doing. It is not something that is
formalized through the station management route, it is -- so it is a lot of
7626 We had one of our major volunteers a couple of years ago based her
entire graduate thesis on the radio station. I think her Masters Degree. You
know, it is that thick and it is in the library at SFU, and who knows where
else, all about CJSF.
7627 So, I mean, the interrelations are many, they are not necessarily
formalized in the sense that this, this, this or half of this show is about
whatever, but it something that is part of what we are doing. It is part and
parcel of being located at the campus that we interact in a lot of different
7628 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
7629 Business plan now. Looking at the proposed new transmitter which would
provide a quality FM signal to a sizeable portion of the Vancouver market.
7630 Can you estimate how many hours a week Vancouver residents would commit
to your station?
7631 MR. THYVOLD: I'm not sure I understand that question.
7632 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Okay. You are reaching a broader
7633 MR. THYVOLD: Yes.
7634 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: -- if you get this new FM signal. Do you know
or can you estimate how many hours a week Vancouver residents would commit to
your station? Do you have a sense of what share you would have?
7635 MR. THYVOLD: This particular question is always one that is extremely
difficult for campus community stations to answer, whether you are trying to
guesstimate where you are going to be or whether you are actually on the
7636 I'm trying to draw on my experience here so it is not necessarily
directly related to CJSF but I think it would apply.
7637 When I was CFUV we had some marketing, fourth year marketing students do
a study that said about something like 17 to 18 per cent of the respondents
to their survey -- they did some telephone survey and they did a sort catch
people at the corner downtown survey -- tuned into that station at least
once a week. Whether that was for, you know, half an hour or an hour or they do
it every day, but at least 17 per cent did at least at some point. You
know, on average they listened for about two hours per session. Those who
listened to the radio station actually listened for about two hours per
7638 So I would, you know, I think because Vancouver is bigger, because it
has many more local radio stations, because it does have a couple of community
stations, you know, our numbers might not be as high in terms of percentages,
but I mean in terms of actual numbers because the number of people within our
reach of our signal, of the very strongest part of our signal, is two or three
times the whole population of Victoria.
7639 You know, our percentages might be lower, but I think our total number
of listeners would be higher.
7640 In terms of more firmer numbers, I mean at the end of the day it is
really not something we do in campus community radio. We are trying to focus on
the programming and we are not getting obsessed about numbers in shares. It's
not that it's not important to us, but it is not what drives our
7641 I would also point out that in our particular case we are not proposing
to do advertising, so again the numbers aren't quite as -- in that sense
are not quite as important to us.
7642 MR. CHAN: At the same time, I just wanted to point out, too --
surprise, surprise --
7643 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Have you been sleeping back there? It's nice
to see you back with us.
7644 MR. CHAN: I have just been sipping on water and eating these cheap
mints, right, so amusing myself.
--- Laughter / Rires
7645 MR. CHAN: I'm sorry, Hilton people.
7646 Anyway, I just wanted to point out too that because part of the problem
right now in the Lower Mainland is outreach. The fastest growing communities are
the eastern part of the Lower Mainland, the communities like Surrey, Coquitlam
and places like that. This is where our population is growing, but with the weak
signals -- well, however, most of the community stations are based like in
the UBC and downtown core, which is the western side of the city.
7647 If CJSF was to get an FM licence, we would actually open up the market
of community radio to the eastern part of the cities as well. I think what you
will see is that we will have like a new base of people to draw upon.
7648 Because if you go by the stats, right, and you look at the current
Vancouver market, you are only talking about people who can hear like community
radio, maybe like -- I'm just pulling numbers out of my ass
--- Laughter / Rires
7649 MR. CHAN: -- but I'm just thinking maybe like 60 per cent of the
people of the city. Do you see what I mean? People who live in the western area
of the city, those are the only people who can listen to community radio. But
because of where we are situated, we will be broadcasting to the eastern part
and effectively we will be growing the market for community radio and I think
you will see our stats increase because of that.
7650 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I don't think I will get that answer from too
--- Laughter / Rires
7651 MR. CHAN: Yes, yes. It's these mints, I'm sorry.
--- Laughter / Rires
7652 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Seat of the pants, oh, okay. That one I will
7653 One of the reasons I was asking was obviously you are in competition for
this frequency so we are looking at -- and I will give you a chance,
obviously, at the end to sum up why you feel you should have this frequency, but
you mentioned advertising and that gets a little bit behind the question as
7654 So let's just go to that right now when we will ask about your
7655 Your application originally didn't contemplate revenues, but since that
time changes to the policy have increased your flexibility to do that. Have you
not -- why did you not consider the sale of advertising time to generate
7656 MR. THYVOLD: I think it basically boils down to a sort of philosophical
approach on the part of the membership of the station. We have fairly -- we
have quite solid funding through our student levy, we have a number of other
initiatives we are planning to put in play, but -- and this isn't
necessarily the case at all campus stations, although the attitude is quite
strong within the campus community radio environment, that -- and at CJSF
the idea that we are a non-commercial broadcaster is taken very much in the sort
of literal sense.
7657 There are many people -- you know, what people feel is often the
problem with the commercial sector is that it is so driven by revenues and so
driven by numbers that often the programming and the music, or whatever, is
secondary, you know, and the programming in music is merely a tool to produce
ears for advertisements. I think that is a pretty fair statement. I mean, it is
a business, that is what they do.
7658 Our approach -- and this is, I think, common to all campus
community stations, is that the programming is key. Now, at CJSF many people
feel that if we were to get into advertising you create a situation where we
become dependent on that revenue generated and that can start to
influence -- people are afraid that that can start influencing the sort of
programming decisions we might make, and that is something that a lot of our
7659 We are a station and an organization that is driven by its membership,
so in the particular question of advertising there is a great deal of
discomfort, both about what people think might be the practical outcomes of
beginning to carry advertising, the influence it might have on us, and on a more
purely philosophical level that, you know, if we don't need it, if we don't need
it to do the kind of programming we want to do, then why get into it.
7660 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: On the "if we don't need it", then, if we back
up, what you do have in place as your revenue sources is largely dependent on
what you call non-government funding, which is essentially the student activity
fees. You note they are guaranteed through referendum and cannot be altered.
7661 Can you elaborate on to what extent these student fees are
7662 MR. THYVOLD: Any changes to our fees are dependent on a referendum of
all the students. When we want to increase them we would go to -- we would
propose a referendum, we have to do a petition, get a sufficient number of
signatures which allows us to put a referendum on the ballot at the campus, and
then a referendum is held to increase them.
7663 Similarly, to remove them would take a similar effort. So someone would
have to really decide they had it in for CJSF and then convince a majority of
the students that they should remove this funding. Obviously that wouldn't
happen without us mounting an exceptionally strong campaign to counter that
7664 We do a lot on the campus, not only through our programming but, as was
mentioned earlier, we provide music for a number of events through other student
organizations, whether it's the PER Group or the Out-On-Campus Group or the
Women's Centre or whatever, the Vegetarian Lunch. There is a vegetarian lunch
every Wednesday, so if you are up on campus on a Wednesday at noon you can get a
free vegetarian lunch.
7665 But my point is that we do -- we have established a presence on the
campus. We make a point of being involved in campus activities, supporting a lot
of the other campus groups, so we have a lot of support on campus.
7666 The last time we ran a referendum we were around 75 per cent
support, which is very, very strong support. It only takes 50-plus-1 to pass the
7667 I mean, nothing is guaranteed, but I think it would be an extraordinary
hard thing for someone to try to run to take our fees away.
7668 MR. CHAN: And also, the student levy is actually fully refundable.
7669 Maybe you guys can elaborate on this a little bit more, but the student
levy to CJSF is fully refundable. I don't have -- I think some other people
will have the exact numbers, but there hasn't been too many students who have
actually come for a refund. I think that is very indicative of the student
support here at CJSF.
7670 Do you guys have numbers on that? Like two people came for a refund last
semester? I don't know.
7671 MR. THYVOLD: Ten.
7672 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: But you understand that we have to have a good
sense of your estimation that future referenda would not change this, this bulk
of your financing.
7673 MR. THYVOLD: Yes. Well, in my knowledge, and I have been working in
campus community radio for a long time and working at the national level for a
number of years so I do know what is going on at other stations, I have never
heard of a case where through referendum a station has had its fees
7674 The problems that campus community stations have had with funding,
student-generated funding, has always been in the case where that funding has
been in the control and at the discretion of student councils. Where it has been
funded through referendum it has always been solid and I have never heard of a
case where it has been taken away.
7675 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: On your list of revenue sources you have
government funding and other. Could you expand a little bit on what government
funding you mean and what you are pursuing and what the other might be?
7676 MR. THYVOLD: A lot of our government funding comes through the summer
career placement program. That is a big chunk. Although we still refer to it as
"challenge program". Everywhere I go everybody still calls it the "challenge
program". It hasn't been called that officially for about 10 years, but
maybe they should go back. But that is one source of funding.
7677 We get another source of funding through work study wages for a number
of people who can work part time as students through the -- at the station.
Those are probably the main sources of government funding. That pretty much adds
up to about, I think it is $5,000-some-off that we list under that total. CJSF
has been pretty successful on a consistent basis getting that kind of government
7678 One of the things is that a lot of that government funding, if your
follow-up question is to be what happens if we don't get it, is that it is
typically project-oriented. So we get a challenge grant for a student, or two
students as in the past summer, to work on various projects, various projects at
the station. If we didn't get that funding -- I mean, all the funding that
comes from that goes to pay the wages of those students, so it is money-in,
money-out. It's not like it is intended to subsidize other operations.
7679 So if, for example, we didn't get that funding, it would be -- we
would have to pursue those projects through volunteer efforts, but it wouldn't
put us in a difficult financial position.
7680 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And all of that in context of our question
about another source, which is potentially advertising revenues and, we
understand your comment now on that choice, but the campus policy does offer
that flexibility --
7681 MR. THYVOLD: Yes.
7682 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: -- down the road, but that is the role of your
board I assume.
7683 MR. THYVOLD: Yes. And that's why we make reference to it in our
application. We are not looking to have that restricted in any way, because that
is a decision that may change over time, so we would leave it at that.
7684 The decision right now is an internal decision among the membership to
take that course, and times change, membership changes and maybe a different
decision will come in the future, but that is not where we are going right
7685 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
7686 Not surprisingly I have some technical questions.
7687 As you know, there is another application for the frequency 90.9 by Gary
Farmer, Aboriginal Voices Radio. You have not proposed any alternate frequencies
that might be suitable for either your or the other application. Have you or
engineering consultants conducted studies to find alternate frequencies that
could possibly be used in Vancouver, either for your application or for the
Aboriginal Voices Radio and, if so, what are your findings?
7688 MS FETTERLY: Well, to answer that question I have to back up just a
little bit because, as you may know, this is an alternate frequency to an
invitation that we had before the Commission at the last visit we had, and at
that time we were requested to find an alternate frequency to the application
that we had put before the Commission.
7689 So to answer your question, this would be the alternate.
7690 Now, coming here today I have seen that -- or in listening to the
proceedings I see that there are other frequencies available, you know looking
at the other applicants. If one of those frequencies became available we would
certainly be interested in taking one of those frequencies, but further to that
I would say no.
7691 Presently the work that we did was between the first application we put
in and working towards putting this application together and looking at what
else is out there that is actually before you with this particular hearing.
7692 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So you anticipated my next question, then.
7693 If for any reason 90.9 was not available to you, would you be able,
ready and willing to use another frequency for your proposed FM station?
7694 MS FETTERLY: If it is a satisfactory frequency, absolutely.
7695 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Would you use an AM frequency?
7696 MS FETTERLY: Now, I would love to say yes, but the costs of going AM
would be absolutely prohibitive for the Society.
7697 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: By way of a sum up, as well as answering this
question, can you elaborate why, in your opinion, 90.9 be granted to you rather
than to Aboriginal Voices Radio or to any other applicant at the hearing?
7698 This is giving you a chance as well to sum up why you feel that we
should grant you the licence.
7699 MR. THYVOLD: I think probably a number of us want to speak to this
particular question because it is why we are here today.
7700 I think one of the reasons we deserve this frequency is because what we
are proposing for this frequency is to serve this community specifically with
programming generated within this community, generated by people of this
community. You know, we are ready to go with all this.
7701 We are doing this right now. We are not saying we are going to create
something, although obviously, as we have said, there are various areas we are
going to expand into.
7702 We are doing this right now and in fact we have been doing it for a
number of years. We are not inexperienced at this, we are not just starting out
at the game of running a radio station, we have been doing it a long time, both
at our own station here and in terms of a number of people involved who have
extensive experience at other stations.
7703 But CJSF as an organization has been doing this for a long time. We have
a strong slated programming that is already going on as we speak. So there is
7704 I think there are -- Vancouver is very large city, it is one of the
most diverse in Canada. Certainly there are two other community broadcasters,
but there is so much stuff, so many communities to be served, so much
programming that is needed to serve a lot of different communities that there
really is a real need for our station.
7705 Do you want to add?
7706 MR. CHAN: Ditto. No, no.
--- Laughter / Rires
7707 MR. CHAN: I just want to reiterate my point about the eastern parts of
the Lower Mainland.
7708 You go to the eastern parts of Vancouver, this is the -- I mean
greater Vancouver regional district, it is the most fastest growing area in
Canada and I think a lot of these people, they just won't have access to
community radio right now. I think CJSF and our location, I think we can reach
out to these people in all these different communities and give these people a
chance to particular in community radio that they just never had before. I think
it is a great opportunity.
7709 Before the Internet takes over everything, you know, we have to get
these people in now.
7710 That's all I have to say.
--- Pause / Pause
7711 MS FETTERLY: I can see that there is some pressure on me to add
something to this.
7712 My involvement with CJSF is for many, many years and there is a rather
large and loyal population that has followed CJSF to this very day at this
hearing. While they could not be here at eight o'clock in the morning I can only
speak for them.
7713 Looking at what CJSF has to offer is possibly the biggest promise for
the future of the radio station and looking at the campus community service that
could be provided to the areas that Matt was just talking about. There is an
entire region of the Lower Mainland that is out there that has yet to have any
access, real access to be served by a community radio station. That has been the
dream, that has been the idea behind CJSF being able to go FM for this very long
period of time.
7714 I would like to believe, and I feel very strong, that the day has come
that this would be the time to do so, that with the radio market the way that it
is right now and with the absolute desire behind all these people who have been
geared up for years to be able to do this, I would have to say that this would
be possibly one of the best things that could happen to Vancouver at this
7715 That is what I have to say in closing.
7716 MR. CHUNG: May I add a few things?
7717 I am drawing a little bit upon my university education. There is so much
emphasis put on higher education, not only in Canada but across the world, and I
think what people fail to realize is that as broadcasters we can take a position
of being educators.
7718 People don't necessarily have the financial means to attend university
and post-secondary education and having us as broadcasters on the FM dial will
not only make the different issues we have talked about throughout our education
accessible to them, but they will make new perspectives, new ideas and new
outlooks on both society, life, culture and everything available to
7719 So the benefit isn't just to the volunteers of CJSF radio, it goes
beyond that into the rest of society.
7720 And that is what I would like to say.
7721 MR. CONDON: If I could, just quickly.
7722 I grew up in southern Ontario across the lake from Toronto and I first
discovered campus community radio about 13-14 years ago by accidentally drifting
down the dial basically and finding CKLN out of Ryerson in Toronto. It was
through that, frankly, that I was offered a diversity that I wasn't -- I
didn't know Toronto existed in this way, in so many different ways. This was a
major city 22 miles across a lake and I only knew it one way, the way I had been
getting basically on very homogenized and increasing homogenized FM radio and TV
7723 I would hate the thought of these growing communities, a very large
portion of the greater Vancouver area, because of the sheer sprawl of the city
and the topography, to be cut off from getting to know what is going on next
7724 We are in an era where people are increasing dwelling, dwelling,
dwelling within their homes with their creature comforts. I would hate to think
that they do not know what is going on down the block and may not want to get
involved. So I think that is something we can definitely do here.
7725 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Did you have something to add to that?
7726 MS ASPINWALL: Yes. I wanted to add, I have had experience at three other
campus community stations that are on the FM and just the sort of -- the
passion and the programming that exists and the way that it can speak to so many
different communities, and when you turn the station on and you are hearing
voices and issues that are speaking to your real-life experience that you don't
hear anywhere else on the FM dial, there is something very essential about
7727 What is also very exciting about campus community radio is when you get
everyone together within that organization and you can see, really, the forms of
community coming together with people who work on their own shows, on their
programming, but everyone comes together to participate in the station,
participate democratically in this organization, and really have a sense of
community of the things that are possible when these kinds of people get
together and start talking about things in their lives and start addressing
issues that are not addressed in the mainstream and having voices and people
that are just very real and that are speaking to issues that are really
7728 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you. Thank you all.
7729 Thank you, Madam Chair.
7730 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
7731 Commissioner Cardozo.
7732 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I have a couple of questions.
7733 I just want to follow up on a couple of issues that Joan Pennefather
talked to you about, one of them being cultural diversity.
7734 One of the reasons we are interested in this issue specifically with
regards to campus radio is because campus is an area that is very culturally and
racially diverse, and SFU is no exception, and perhaps one of the more diverse
campuses around and likely to be that way forever.
7735 So I just wanted to get a bit more specifics from you.
7736 When we look to campus radio to reflect diversity, there are sort of
three things I think you can talk about.
7737 One is, programming for particular groups, whether it is in a third
language or not, whether it is in English or in a third language it is, for some
reason, programming that that group is particularly interested in.
7738 The second would be programming for the wider student community, or the
campus community around issues of particular interest to diversity, whether it
is immigration, racism, whatever other issues there are of concern to
7739 Third is inclusion of people, volunteers and employment.
7740 I think on the third one you certainly have some diversity reflected
here, and my guess is that you couldn't pick eight students randomly out of your
campus and not have a fair amount of diversity in terms of ethnicity, gender,
sexual orientation, income group and, might I say, hair colour too.
--- Laughter / Rires
7741 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So let me just ask you about the first couple,
then, in terms of programming targeted or that is offered for particular
7742 Are there student clubs on campus, say the Iranian Students Group or any
other kind of ethnic-based student or language-based student group who would be
interested in -- or who are interested and have done programming with you,
or do you have plans for that in the future?
7743 MS ASPINWALL: Yes, there are several clubs on campus as to that
7744 Presently the Simon Fraser Public Interest Research Group has a
collective show, but in terms of sort of cultural organizations the
Association -- Students of African Descent has previously had a show. They
presently don't have a show on the air.
7745 But we do have a student who is involved in the Arabian community on
campus who is playing music and talking about news affecting that community. And
it is very often that it is one of the ways in which we reach out.
7746 In terms of the First Nations community on campus, we have been working
with someone to start up a show. Unfortunately it got quite busy this semester
and hasn't been able to start it up, but that is definitely in our plans. We
have been talking to both the First Nations Student Office and the First Nations
Student Association about starting up programming. Is that sort of --
7747 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes, okay. Yes.
7748 MS ASPINWALL: But that is sort of a base.
7749 And like I was saying before, there are student clubs, but they are also
connected with organizations within the community bringing issues on campus, but
also bringing that connection in with living their lives in the larger community
and all those issue being interconnected as speaking to students on campus but
also to the larger community is combining those things.
7750 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you have issue-based groups, whether it is an
anti-racism group, a gay and lesbian group, an environment group, for example,
who will look to the radio station as a place where they can have their issues
7751 MS ASPINWALL: Most certainly. Like, for example, the Simon Fraser Public
Interest Research Group is an organization, a student-run and community
organization on campus, that addresses a variety of environmental and social
justice issues. They have a collective show on-air at the moment.
7752 We have had -- Women's Centre on campus have a show, their specific
show, and we are also working with Out-On-Campus, which is the queer collective
on campus. We actually have someone in training now and we have plans to have a
show based out of that.
7753 I think that is sort of what you were asking.
7754 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes.
7755 MR. THYVOLD: I just want to make a very quick point, because Emily is
sort of talking about shows we have in development and shows we have now and
shows we have had in the past.
7756 One of the difficulties of our high reliance right now on student
volunteers, which we have explained why that is previously, is that their
schedules change, you know, semester to semester. I know this from my experience
at other stations, it is really difficult to generate the kind of programming
stability with just students -- this is in reference to your
question -- that we would get with community volunteers.
7757 So I wouldn't want you to form the impression that because things come
and go it is because, you know, for any other reason than student's schedules
change and they can do a show this year and they can't do it next year, or vice
7758 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Well, it just takes me back to the point you
made earlier when you were talking about the station being a facilitator for
various groups or viewpoints, et cetera.
7759 Are you a laid-back facilitator or an outreaching facilitator? Because I
think there is a difference. You can either be there and people show up or not,
or you can go out there and --
7760 MS ASPINWALL: Oh --
7761 MR. CHUNG: I would like to speak on this.
7762 One thing I think people have to understand about the SFU environment
right now is the location and where it is at. Right now -- not only CJSF
but the different student organizations which you have mentioned and which
people have mentioned.
7763 They have a lot of difficulty themselves getting volunteers in and they
are actively doing it. We are actively doing it too. We are approaching these
organizations and saying "Come on, come in and get involved" and often their
response is, you know, students up here are apathetic because there is no real
sense of community, unfortunately, because -- I don't know what it is about
it, but --
7764 MR. CHAN: It's the Arthur Erikson building, it just sucks.
7765 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the first part of that.
What was it that sucked?
7766 MR. CHAN: Our university was designed by Arthur Erikson in a very
post-modern style which is very conducive to depression.
7767 MR. THYVOLD: Anyway, to answer your question, we are out there actively,
you know, asking these groups to come in and when they do come in we do work
closely with them to help them through their training, but also on an ongoing
basis with resources and program development.
7768 MS ASPINWALL: I think an important example of this is just this past
week Out-On-Campus was having a queer day on campus, coming out ceremonies and
stuff like that, and we provided outdoor broadcasting for them for this and also
they came into the station and were making prerecorded announcements about their
event. So it is sort of this mutual support.
7769 We have managed to go out to there and attend the meetings and regularly
in semesters and say "This the service we offer. We are looking for people to
get involved in community radio. This is what it is." Because I think unless you
go out there, as you are saying, and really tell people and through your actions
such as supporting outdoor broadcasting, supporting people's announcements,
talking about their issues on the station, then you start to show them what it
7770 And through all those different actions people start to see "Oh, okay,
like that's what it's for, it is for me to speak to the issues in my community,
it is for me to begin this kind of dialogue that will sort of create a healthier
community and help communications, talk about issues that aren't talked about
7771 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Forgive me for saying this, but after hearing your
last few answers it sounds to me like you are fighting a losing battle. You are
not going to have volunteers, so why do you want a frequency?
7772 MS ASPINWALL: I'm sorry?
7773 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is it just that you have a certain base of people
and that is a good enough base to run a station and it is expanding that is the
7774 MS ASPINWALL: Well, I think you are referring in terms of -- I
mean, I think we have addressed this, as far as I understand your comment, in
terms of being presently limited in terms of our range, of cable, on the
Internet, in residence, and because of that --
7775 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Oh, so you are saying with a frequency you will be
overcoming some of this lack of interest?
7776 MS ASPINWALL: Oh, yes, very much so I think.
7777 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
7778 MS ASPINWALL: I think that you can just -- I mean, I think we have
sort of discussed this point, but just expanding and going FM in terms of people
being "Oh, I do programming and all these people hear me, they are calling in,
making that connection."
7779 We are saying we have the base there and we are building on that base
and we are working on those plans to build and we have already started up that
work. But with the FM, that is what we need to really speak to these issues and
have people be able to hear other people speaking to these issues.
7780 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
7781 One other question with regard to CFRO: To what extent do they satisfy
the needs that you are going to fulfil? Or, put differently, do you have a lot
more to offer beyond what they are offering in terms of community radio,
7782 MR. THYVOLD: Yes, I think we do. I mean, as we have made the point a
couple of times, there are a lot of needs out there in the community and one
station, like CFRO, can't accommodate everybody.
7783 When you have an established station like CFRO, it has a fairly
stabilized programming schedule. If someone comes to them and says "We have this
community or we have this interest and we would like to see it fulfilled", it is
not just the time waiting. Great, you know, bang, bang you're on the air and
your community is being served. It is not like that at all. Their schedule is
full up. The same with CITR.
7784 So when new people, new communities are coming to them saying "We would
like to see our community served. We would like to get a show on-the-air", those
stations are going to give them all the encouragement they can, but they are
also going to be saying to them "We don't have time in our schedule right now.
We would love to have you on-the-air, but we have to see what and when an
opportunity can be created for you."
7785 So the need is unquestionable that there are a lot of communities that
want to do stuff that currently can't, or have to wait so long, and I know that
often what happens when a group has to wait a long time to get a program is that
the energy and drive that caused to them to form to generate the idea to go to
the station and say we want to do this dissipates. If you have to wait six
months, a year, or longer, your group falls apart and by the time something
comes along the energy within that collective is not there any more.
7786 MS ASPINWALL: I think just to add onto that, I think idea that --
you know, for example, the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender community
already is a lot of communities within one community, is vast within the issues
and the problems and the frustrations that exist in that community, and to say
"Well, you have a half hour queer show on CFRO", like that should be enough kind
of thing. Like there is so much need there, even within communities that are
already served, for example, on CFRO.
7787 But I just don't want to get into the idea that, well, there is one
queer show in Vancouver so that serves the queer community.
7788 Also, just to reiterate the idea of serving the issues and communities
in specific around Burnaby Mountain, which would differ us from programming, of
course Co-Op Radio based out of downtown Vancouver would be -- you know,
you don't hear issues about the Burnaby Gypsy Moth spring up on Co-Op Radio or
different things happening, you know, in Ioco, all these kinds of things. It's
not present there and there is, like Trevor was saying, vast amounts of
expanding communities facing their own particular issues in those communities
that have no voice. We are trying to fill that and I think we can do it very
7789 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you very much.
7790 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cardozo.
7791 Thank you very much.
7792 Have a good day, Trevor.
7793 MR. THYVOLD: Thanks very much for giving us the opportunity to come
7794 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
7795 Nice to see, I think we have some students here from the communications
class, don't we?
7796 Communications faculty. Welcome.
--- Off microphone / Sans microphone
7797 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry?
--- Off microphone / Sans microphone
7798 THE CHAIRPERSON: Actually, no, I'm sorry, it isn't actually. We finished
the proceeding with respect to this application.
7799 So I think what we will do is now take our morning break and be back at
7800 MS VOGEL: Thank you.
7801 Our next presenter is going to be Central Island Broadcasting, so
perhaps they would like to move up during the break.
--- Upon recessing at 1042 / Suspension à 1042
--- Upon resuming at 1103 / Reprise à 1103
7802 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
7803 Madam Secretary.
7804 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.
7805 Our next item is the application by Central Island Broadcasting Ltd. for
a broadcasting licence to carry on an English-language FM radio programming
undertaking at Nanaimo.
7806 The new station would operate on frequency 106.9 megahertz with an
effective radiated power of 1,600 watts, upon surrender of the current licence
issued to CKEG Nanaimo.
7807 The applicant is proposing a music format consisting of great oldies and
great '80s music.
7808 The applicant is also requesting permission to broadcast simultaneously
on the AM and FM bands for a period of three months before surrendering the
current licence issued to CKEG.
7809 Please go ahead whenever you are ready.
APPLICATION / APPLICATION
7810 MR. ADSHEAD: Thank you, Madam Secretary.
7811 Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, and Commission staff, my name is
Bob Adshead. I am Vice-President and General Manager of Central Island
Broadcasting Ltd. of Nanaimo.
7812 With me today, to my right, is Cathy Johns, Administrative Director for
our company. On her immediate right is Brad Edwards, our Operations Manager for
Central Island Broadcasting Ltd. On my immediate left is Chris Weafer, our legal
counsel, and beside Chris is Doug Allen of D.E.M. Allen and Associates, our
7813 We sincerely appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today. As
you know, we are here for one reason, to provide the Commission with what we
believe is a positive proactive approach to move forward and allow CKEG-AM,
Nanaimo's heritage radio station, to change to the FM band at 106.9 megahertz.
The primary necessity is a much-needed technical upgrade to FM quality and
signal strength, something that we can't achieve with the AM station, and to
ensure the financial future of this station.
7814 Central Island Broadcasting is a small-market company serving the
central east coast of Vancouver Island. Nanaimo is our home, our home town. It
is located, as the crow flies, about 35 miles across Georgia Strait from
Vancouver. It is not that far, yet, as we experience, it is very near.
7815 Nanaimo has a population of approximately 80,000. Our proposal is for
service to Nanaimo, period. We have no interest in Vancouver. As detailed in our
technical brief, the contours of our proposed FM station, the 0.5 millivolt
signal, reaches only to an imaginary point mid-way across Georgia Strait.
7816 A little history, at least what I am familiar with. Nanaimo first
received AM radio service in the late 1940s. The station was a vision of a group
of individuals from a Vancouver newspaper. There was a low power transmitter in
south Nanaimo, the site where the CKEG-AM transmitter is located today. Coverage
at that time was limited, due to low power of the transmitter. The population of
Nanaimo was, at that time, in a area surrounding downtown.
7817 Over the years we have made investments to improve the AM station.
However, we have reached the point where the only practical strategy for
improvement is through a technical upgrade to FM.
7818 As our proposal is to move CKEG-AM to the FM band, it is important to
realize and understand that the service area of the AM station has been severely
compromised, especially in the past 10 years. The deterioration of the
service is a result of a number of factors. These include:
7819 The combination of the frequency of operation, 1570 kilohertz being at
the high end of the AM spectrum, and the ground conductivity of the terrain
surrounding Nanaimo, which acts as though it was solid Precambrian rock,
severely limits the distance the signal travels. Similar challenges of this
nature have occurred at other AM stations on Vancouver Island.
7820 Over the last few years the significant growth of the urban area of
Nanaimo, and a resulting increase in man-made electrical noise, has severely
affected the levels of interference on the AM band, consequently reducing the
level of service to the CKEG market area. This "noise" or "interference" on
1570 AM occurs in a variety of areas from the central or downtown to the
primary growth region at the north end of Nanaimo or along the waterfront
northwest of downtown. This will only get worse and may only be overcome by the
use of FM which is not affected by electrical noise.
7821 This challenge has resulted in reduced tuning. Poor signal strength is a
factor. People prefer a strong, interference-free signal, or they tune away to
7822 I would like to quote from a couple of letters from business owners who
have filed interventions in support of our application. In actual fact, I kind
of bypassed the first one as part of a letter because the other two impact as
being very local.
"Island Farms has partnered with SKWV-FM (The WAVE)."
7823 Our Nanaimo station:
"We receive excellent coverage and the benefit of a highly professional
(Nanaimo) FM station. We do not partner with a Community Events Cruiser on CKEG
1570 AM as information suggests a more limited coverage area."
7824 Alex Marriott is a Sales Representative with Island Farms Dairies.
7825 The next quote is from a car dealer:
"I am a strong believer in radio advertising and have always been a regular
advertiser on CKWV, the local FM station. Although utilizing the AM station on
occasion up until six months ago, it's my opinion this station can no longer
provide necessary results, the listener base or coverage area for the
investment. Thus, my reason for discontinuing any investment with CKEG AM."
7826 That Barry Robson who is the President and General Manager of Nanaimo
7827 We need the "flip" in order to support our local radio service in
Nanaimo. There is a market demand for service by advertisers and listeners.
7828 Nanaimo is in a very unique geographical location. Benefits include
natural beauty of terrain, lifestyle, heritage and the distinct Vancouver Island
7829 Just as there are many benefits, we have challenges.
7830 From a broadcasting perspective, we understand and appreciate people
deserve and desire choice. Besides local stations, listeners in Nanaimo have
over 20 Vancouver and area stations to choose form. These are off-air AM and FM
station signals, not cable or any other source. There are an additional
27 signals received in Nanaimo from the State of Washington or other
Vancouver Island communities. The FM stations are all well programmed, highly
intense and niched to serve specific market demographics.
7831 We are not here to whine or complain about our challenges. We have
remained positive and proactive and have worked creatively to find our own
solutions so that we might remain competitive. In fairness, and under the
circumstances, to compete at the best level possible we desperately need to be
on the same playing field, the FM playing field.
7832 I would like to ask Cathy to provide some details of the recent
financial picture of CKEG as an AM station.
7834 MS JOHNS: I joined Central Island Broadcasting six years ago. At the
time, the two independent Nanaimo broadcast companies had just amalgamated so
Nanaimo and area would be better served with broadcasting services. This is an
example of a positive proactive approach by two local small market
7835 Prior to amalgamation, each company was licensed with an AM station. The
new company, Central Island Broadcasting, moved forward to establish the first
FM station for Nanaimo on surrender of one of the AM licences. The new FM
station signed-on January 2, 1995. CKEG remained as the AM station in
7836 In 1995, revenues for the AM station remained virtually the same as
1994. However, in the 1996 fiscal year, the year after the new FM station
reached the air, the first real sign of financial challenges for the AM station
began to unfold. Revenues for CKEG-AM declined approximately 26 per cent in
the 1996 fiscal year.
7837 Central Island Broadcasting made several changes to prop up the AM
station, including marketing and sales strategies in co-operation with the
sister station CKWV-FM, The WAVE.
7838 This resulted in marginal sales improvements for the AM station through
1997 and 1998.
7839 Revenues declined slightly in 1999. This past fiscal year, sales
declined substantially by 16 per cent.
7840 Fiscal year 2000 was the lowest sales level for this station since 1983.
This financial challenge has now compounded a difficult technical situation and
created even more urgency for the transition of this station to FM.
7841 Although motivated by technical concerns of CKEG as an AM station, and
challenges to reach and serve the marketplace, we now have serious concerns
about the financial future of CKEG as an AM station.
7842 Again, we would rather emphasize the technical challenges. We need to be
able to reach the Nanaimo market audience at the same high quality level as the
many out-of-market FM signals that penetrate Nanaimo. That is why planning and
preparation have been based on a proactive approach with significant and
somewhat unique benefits and contributions to the Canadian broadcasting
7843 MR. ADSHEAD: So the primary reasons for this application which is before
you today are the following:
7844 Firstly, the technical quality case.
7845 Secondly, the possibility that the current transmitter site for CKEG may
not be available in about two years. This would result in a relocation capital
expenditure that, quite frankly, doesn't make sense. We have determined that to
remain competitive the only logical opportunity is to move the AM station to the
FM band at 106.9 FM.
7846 As the Commission is aware, other broadcasters on Vancouver Island have
experienced similar challenges with their AM stations. In the case of Victoria
and Duncan broadcasters, each has followed procedure, applied for and received
approval for changing their AM stations to FM.
7847 When Central Island Broadcasting was preparing this application in early
1999, we were not aware that Radio Malaspina Society was in the process of
completing an application for a new campus community FM station to Nanaimo.
7848 The Radio Malaspina Society application moved through process and
received a hearing date for late November 1999. In the fall of 1999 members of
our company met with Radio Malaspina to discuss ways to work together so that we
both might achieve and move forward with their applications.
7849 The primary challenge, each applicant's technical proposals conflicted
with each other. At the recommendation of Commission staff, the applicants were
encouraged to work together to find solutions to the technical challenges and
return with options.
7850 As finances were tight for Radio Malaspina, Central Island Broadcasting
agreed to cover additional costs that Radio Malaspina might incur dealing with
new technical proposals. With this funding Radio Malaspina technical advisors
identified a drop-in frequency at 101.7, a third adjacent channel to Central
Island Broadcasting's existing station CKWV at 102.3 FM. To accommodate this
drop-in frequency for Radio Malaspina it was necessary to co-locate with CKWV-FM
to avoid interference. However, this also created new costs for Radio Malaspina
over and above their original proposals.
7851 Central Island Broadcasting agreed to provide Radio Malaspina with a
variety of services and transmitter site access to accommodate their new
proposals. The Commission has been made aware of this unique commitment through
updated filings to our application.
7852 Certainly, successful local programming is a critical issue for Nanaimo.
I would like to call on Brad Edwards to provide a little background into
programming of the new FM.
7854 MR. EDWARDS: The target audience for the new FM station is the 25 to 49
pop/rock demographic. We will achieve this with great oldies, great '80s, a
format has been evolving our AM station to for over a year.
7855 The format includes a great mix of favourites from the late '60s, '70s
and 1980s. We firmly believe in supporting the heritage of Canadian talent that
has played a role in development of the Canadian music industry we have today.
Artists like The Band, Glass Tiger, Long John Baldry, and even Brian Adams.
Also, artists like Honeymoon Suite, April Wine, Trooper, Chilliwack, Jim Byrnes,
Doug and The Slugs and Powder Blues. Of those mentioned, some have recently been
on tour through our area. They continue to draw excellent audiences. This is a
testament to the credibility of what we do, plus who and what we support as a
7856 As a company, we feel strongly and are so committed that, regardless of
recent amendments to Canadian content regulations, we have opted not to take
advantage of the 30 per cent mandate for an oldies-based format or music
prior to 1980, but will continue to program 35 per cent Canadian in our
daily format. There are dozens of choices for music in our market, predominantly
on the FM dial. Only Central Island can deliver this from a local perspective
7857 Central Island Broadcasting has a self-designed mandate to provide
50 per cent local news coverage. This includes health and lifestyle issues
of interest to the community. As heritage community broadcasters, we appreciate
and understand there are issues, concerns and traditions only a local
broadcaster could recognize. None of these issues are served by non-local
stations or signals received in Nanaimo from Vancouver or other distant
7858 We have also succeeded in dealing with our community uniqueness with a
series of special programs and features as shown in our application. We are one
of very few remaining broadcasters that specializes in play-by-play hockey at a
junior level. This is grassroots community broadcasting only Central Island
Broadcasting can deliver for Nanaimo.
7859 MR. ADSHEAD: From a business perspective, the flip of CKEG from AM to FM
is essential to maintaining our ability to provide quality service to
7860 Our revenue projections are based on 20 years experience in the
marketplace. Although our financial projections were filed prior to the issuance
of a new TV licence to CHUM for service Vancouver Island, quite obviously this
new service will impact our operations. This now makes the need for a flip of
our AM to FM even more important than when we originally filed our
7861 A unique aspect of our application is that we are making a direct
contribution to the licensing of a new community campus service for Nanaimo,
that being a licence for Radio Malaspina Society. We have worked effectively and
co-operatively with radio Malaspina and we are very excited about the
7862 As discussed, as the heritage station serving Nanaimo for over 50 years,
we face nearly 50 out-of-market signals easily received off-air in the
community. These signals, of which 29 are FM, provide various levels of
competition for audience for our local stations. Yet Central Island is the only
local radio news voice serving Nanaimo. Approval of this application will allow
us to preserve the existing heritage news voice in our community.
7863 There are no licensed broadcasters serving Nanaimo that will be
negatively impacted by approval of this application to flip our AM service to
FM. As the Commission is aware, Central Island is the sole broadcast company
serving Nanaimo from Nanaimo. Our existing FM service will not be impacted in a
negative way by the flip and, in fact, this flip will improve the efficiency of
that operation by the ability to co-locate as well this new FM at our existing
FM transmitter site. This also potentially avoids an AM transmitter site
challenge that we may have for Central Island Broadcasting.
7864 The flip of our existing AM station will allow Central Island to more
effectively compete for audience in the Nanaimo market against the myriad of
out-of-market signals that provide no local service.
7865 We would also confirm that the reach of our proposed new FM station will
not extend our signal beyond that provided by our existing AM signal service
7866 As indicated earlier in this application, if approved, it will result in
a unique contribution to local broadcasting in Nanaimo and, we believe, the
Canadian broadcasting system through our commitment to the Radio Malaspina
Society. It is not common for a local private broadcaster to welcome a new
signal to a market. However, we believe the initiative of Radio Malaspina is
good for Nanaimo and, therefore, as a local Nanaimo broadcaster and good
corporate citizen, we are pleased to support them.
7867 In addition, Central Island Broadcasting has added a commitment of
$10,000 annually, $9,600 in new Canadian talent initiative, the details of which
are set out in our application.
7868 In closing, as a secondary market broadcaster we sometimes feel we do
not receive the focus that major market broadcast companies seem to invite. This
week, we have followed with interest applications for Vancouver for new FM
service, particularly the smooth jazz style of format. I thought it would be
interesting to the Commission to hear just a little about how we, Central Island
Broadcasting, as small market broadcasters, deal with this kind of issue.
7869 The success of Diana Krall, a Canadian born and raised in Nanaimo, is
quite obvious, especially in a format of smooth jazz music. We take great pride
in being a local Nanaimo radio station where our Canadian talent development
direct cash initiative goes to support young artists like Diana and the jazz and
high school bands that she performed with in her school years. Yet, at the time,
how would anyone know of the future for such a wonderful young talent.
7870 In our opinion, this is where commitment and support for our young
Canadian talents or artists must be preserved. Talent of this kind does not only
reside in big cities and the importance of secondary market radio stations
should not be underestimated.
7871 CIB is the only applicant that is appearing here at this hearing for
106.9 FM and we understand the two technical interventions by Standard and CHUM
have, in effect, been withdrawn.
7872 Madam Chair and Commissioners, we hope you can approve our application
and we look forward to responding to any questions you may have.
7873 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
7874 I will turn to Commissioner Cardozo.
7875 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair.
7877 MR. ADSHEAD: Thank you.
7878 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me get the pronunciation right. It's
7879 MR. ADSHEAD: Okay.
7880 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I don't have too, too many questions for you. They
will be under three headings or less: marketing, technical issues and
7881 Let me just ask you, out of the number of -- I want to get a sense
of the marketing challenges facing you currently.
7882 You talked about the out-of-market competitors. I guess there are no
in-market competitors because you own the whole thing. It's sort of like
Remington shaving blades, he liked the company so much he bought it.
7883 But you said there are some 20 Vancouver stations and
27 Washington stations. Are they all competitors to you or are there a few
who you think are prime competitors?
7884 MR. ADSHEAD: We consider them all to be competitors for audience, which
fragments the existing marketplace.
7885 It is unique in that if we were in Prince George or in Kelowna, British
Columbia or in Kamloops, we might have three or four stations within the market
that we are vying for that audience. I think we do the best job that we can to
retain and repatriate that existing audience, but it is an every day challenge
when you have such very specialized stations which will automatically take
certain segments of that marketplace away.
7886 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are there other oldies-type stations or stations
that are more like your format among these 47 stations?
7887 MR. ADSHEAD: Perhaps Brad, who is our programmer and our expert on
programming, would like to comment on that.
7888 MR. EDWARDS: A couple of stations that come to mind from the Vancouver
market, for example, would be AM-600, The Bridge; 650 CISL Vancouver; KBSG
Seattle at 97.3 also has a presence in our marketplace. They too program the
oldies format. And there is a relatively new station out of Seattle as well at
96.5 called The Point, and they specialize primarily in the '80s format. They
all have a presence in the Nanaimo market.
7889 So in terms of the relativity to the oldies format, they are there.
7890 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What sense do you get from listeners as to how
important a local broadcaster is? What are they looking to you for? Is it things
like local news and traffic information?
7891 MR. EDWARDS: I think they are looking for a connection to the community.
All these stations that I have mentioned, 650 CISL Vancouver, KVSG in Seattle,
they are all fine broadcasters. We are playing the same music, the difference
being we are broadcasting from Nanaimo for Nanaimo.
7892 We have been in the market for a number of years, as Mr. Adshead had
indicated, and I don't think anybody understands the market better than we do.
That is the primary difference between us and them.
7893 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Ms Johns, you had talked about the projected
declines, about some of the challenges you are having in terms of revenue. It
isn't all negative for you. In the 1996 through 1998 period there was a bit of
increase. I guess the last year has not been good for you.
7894 But I'm thinking also there seems to be a sense from the Conference
Board of Canada and others that the economy in British Columbia is now on the
mend and has turned the corner. Do you agree with that and, with a yes or no,
how does that play out in Nanaimo?
7895 MS JOHNS: The economic conditions that you have mentioned may be
happening in the greater Vancouver area, but it is not something that we are
seeing in our Vancouver Island community. Things are still very tough in some of
those areas, a lot of resource-based communities, and that economic turnaround,
we are not seeing that on Vancouver Island. Therefore, people are even more
careful in how they are spending their advertising dollars, and in a signal that
is not giving them the coverage that they want and targeting the audience they
want, they are not willing to spend that money on a signal that is not
7896 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So that is the crux of you feel that an FM is
more reliable for those doubters?
7897 MS JOHNS: The FM will allow us to compete with these other signals
coming into the area. It will be a stronger signal. It will be able to give the
coverage and bring back some of those listeners that have indicated that the AM
cycle is not giving them -- not meeting their needs.
7898 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me move to a couple of -- did you want to
7899 MR. ADSHEAD: No, I think we're fine. Thank you.
7900 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
7901 Let me move to technical questions.
7902 Any time you want to add anything, please just jump in and say it. The
object of the hearing, as you know, is just to get any additional information we
need further to what you have provided us with whatever you think will be
7903 Now, as you know, among some of the FM applications competing at this
hearing, various frequencies have been identified. Some applicants have
suggested that 106.9 could be used in Vancouver. Why do you think you are better
for 106.9 as opposed to somebody else who might be interested in that
7904 MR. ADSHEAD: I would like to call on Doug Allen to offer his comments
and thoughts, after tedious studies on this particular issue.
7905 MR. ALLEN: I guess one of the things in the intervention referred to,
Commissioner, there were certain statements made with respect to the status of
two of the stations that would be protected by 106.9 and 107.1 from
Vancouver. Those were called tentative deletions.
7906 We understand, of course, that those channels are not going to be
deleted. They are still there. Therefore, the suggestion that they would work
are not valid.
7907 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That is the 106.9 along with 107.1?
7908 MR. ALLEN: And 107.1, yes. Because of potential interference to existing
stations that are not deleted or are not going to be deleted.
7909 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Let me see if I understand this
7910 There is, between the two frequencies, an overlapping area, which I
understand is largely over water and that there is some over land, primarily
some islands east of Ladysmith. Is that correct?
7911 MR. ALLEN: Yes, because of -- it depends to what patterns we are
looking at. We haven't seen the finally designed patterns for either of these
stations. We have seen tentative design patterns based on a supposition that the
stations referred to have been deleted. Therefore, we have not see the final
design indicating that the pattern from Vancouver has been pulled back
sufficiently to provide adequate protection.
7912 Therefore, if it was the original proposed pattern, the area of
interference would be significant. Obviously, if you can pull it back to zero,
or something like that, then you are fully protected. But that wasn't done.
7913 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: From your knowledge, that can be done technically?
That region of interference can be removed? You can pull it back?
7914 MR. ALLEN: I am only looking at Nanaimo. There is the other aspect of
protecting Squamish, so I'm not touching that.
7915 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
7916 MR. ALLEN: That I think Rogers will comment on, but from our perspective
if they pulled back far enough, yes, the area of interference would be in the
7917 But whether or not the antenna is practical would be another
7918 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So as it stands, it is your view that 106.9 and
107.1, as currently being proposed, are not separate from each other. There is a
7919 MR. ALLEN: That's right.
7920 MR. WEAFER: Commissioner Cardozo, just to be clear, because Standard
addressed the technical filing that was filed briefly in their presentation
earlier in the week. In responding to their intervention against Central Island,
Mr. Allen reviewed their study and, just to highlight, we believe their
study was in error in terms of the identification of frequencies being
tentatively deleted which are still in place.
7921 Just to be clear, we understand CHUM is withdrawing their intervention
on that point. Standard, on the record, withdrew their intervention on the
point. The remaining issue is just to discuss with Mr. Allen.
7922 But for Nanaimo, we are the only applicant for 106.9 and we can't offer
the service that we are proposing and Mr. Allen is saying we believe that
if a Vancouver applicant can pursue the frequency in the event somehow the 107.1
is deleted from Squamish, which we doubt would happen, their frequency can be
modified such that Nanaimo could operate properly and not be interfered with by
the Vancouver city.
7923 The record is, unfortunately, not perfectly clear because CHUM hasn't
spoken to this point yet on the record. Standard has.
7924 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In the course of this hearing a number of FM
frequencies have been mentioned to us as being possibilities. Most people have
applied for one frequency that there is the competition over, but we have asked:
Are you aware of other frequencies and people have identified various
frequencies out there, one of them being 106.9.
7925 My question is this: If we were to grant 106.9 to another applicant, is
there another frequency that would meet your needs?
7926 MR. ALLEN: Commissioner, I think after two years of trying to come up
with a frequency and, as you realize, in Vancouver after the hearing that we
have been listening to, the problem of trying to find an adequate channel is
extremely difficult. Even 106.9 in Nanaimo had to have a specially designed
antenna pattern to provide protection to an existing station, in particular CISQ
in Squamish, and at the same time not interfering with the recently authorized
station in Victoria, CFEX-FM.
7927 So it is squeezed in even as it is, but that is still the best squeeze.
So it is really massaged down to the very last ounce, you could say.
7928 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Let me ask your proposal for the new
station, it would be an FM station, and with that comes certain obligations, one
of them being to have a certain amount of local programming. You have talked
about that in your opening.
7929 I wonder if you could just give us a bit more about how many hours and
the nature of the local programming that you would have?
7930 MR. EDWARDS: I will maybe start on this. Mr. Adshead probably will
have a couple of more points to add in as well.
7931 In terms of our local programming, all of our programming currently
originates from Nanaimo. That is including all of our feature programs, whether
it is the weekly top 30. We do not currently subscribe to any nationally or
internationally based programming features for either of our radio stations and
firmly believe that the programming that we serve the community -- we are
serious about the community -- is locally produced.
7932 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And can you focus on the spoken word
programming that you plan to do?
7933 MR. EDWARDS: Spoken word comes in a number of different forms outside of
news and sports. We have specially designed features that are of interest to the
unique lifestyles in the community of Nanaimo, including our ski reports; marine
patrol, marine being one of the major modes of transportation in the Nanaimo
area. The type of climate that we live in, the climates change, the conditions
change, marine patrol is part of our every day life, as our environmental
reports which we do on the hour. Marine patrol is specifically through the
boating season from late spring right through until fall.
7934 We also have a number of other features that focus specifically on
junior sports, Soccer Talk for one. Seasonal baseball schedule scores from the
dugout is another feature. We also have a talk show hosted by a veteran
broadcaster that we have on staff, our news director with over 25 years
experience, and that is a 30-minute issue-based -- Nanaimo issue-based
discussion forum for citizens and people in the community to discuss the
7935 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is that daily?
7936 MR. EDWARDS: That is daily Monday to Friday, correct.
7937 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
7938 Do you have a sense of how many hours spoken word programming you
are going to be having a week?
7939 MR. EDWARDS: Well, we have broken it down more in terms of percentages.
News and sports each with about 1.5 per cent spoken word. Our half-hour
talk show, for example, that is 2.5 hours a week right there on our local
7940 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. How do you distinguish, or how would the
listener distinguish -- well, let me put it differently.
7941 How would this spoken word programming on the FM you are applying for
differ from your other two stations?
7942 MR. EDWARDS: Again, what we are proposing with the new FM is, it is a
nice complement to our existing younger targeted FM signal, 102.3 The WAVE,
allowing us to cover the demographic spectrum of the community of Nanaimo and I
think the issues would be such that some of the things that we would be
discussing on 102.3 would be more targeted to the 18 to 35, whereas
with the oldies proposed format that we have right now would be more specific to
7943 We have an election coming up on Monday, for example, that is something
that is of huge interest to our community, and that is the type of discussion
forum that we would be partaking in.
7944 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So in your basket of offerings, you have something
for each member of the family kind of thing?
7945 MR. EDWARDS: Well, we try not fragment ourselves too much, but we try to
offer good quality family programming on both our signals, yes.
7946 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes.
7947 Let me just ask, in closing, a general question.
7948 I was struck by this suggestion that you were evolving into an oldies
station and I am interested in this concept of evolution in terms of
7949 Is it what has happened that the station has grown with your audience
and as the audience -- is it the same sort of batch of people that you are
growing with over time, or do you just stick with one format -- or do you
stay tuned to one age group, which means that you would be changing the format
7950 MR. EDWARDS: I think it holds true with a lot of formats that, yes, you
grow with the demographic. CKEG has gone through some interesting transitions
over time. We have gone from country to oldies. That is where the evolution in
the last 18 months has been.
7951 And then it comes down to how do you define oldies? I have worked with
other oldies stations before where the primary focus is 1950s and 1960s. What we
are proposing in our format is more specifically targeted to the core target
demographic which makes up approximately 40 per cent of Nanaimo's
population. That is the 25-49. We felt that late '60s, '70s and even the 1980s
was more specific to -- more representative of the community which we are
7952 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Earlier this week we heard from one of the
people appearing, one of the applicants said she liked Midnight Train to Georgia
by Gladys Knight and the Pips, even though that was written before she was born,
which I thought was rather an offensive comment. But, as I see it, you have
something for her as well as her parents in this --
7953 MR. EDWARDS: And I was only 10 when that song came out, and
7954 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes, sure.
--- Laughter / Rires
7955 MR. EDWARDS: -- definitely plays a part in our format, yes.
7956 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, those are my questions.
7957 Thank you very much.
7958 THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't think we have any other questions.
7960 MR. RHÉAUME: Maybe briefly, Madam Chair.
7961 Mr. Allen, I am not sure if I quite understood the implication of 107.1
and the impact that this would have on your using 106.9.
7962 There is an issue regarding interference on certain islands east of
Ladysmith. How populated are these islands and to what extent is coverage,
perfect coverage significant to your application?
7963 MR. ALLEN: Again I have to refer to what was in the document which
showed a particular coverage. When one takes a look at that, the area of
interference was more significant than you are referring to. However, I suggest
that if that pattern -- if we can ignore Squamish -- was pulled in
sufficiently, then the area of potential interference would be out in the water
where it would not be significant.
7964 But at the present time, what was proposed is not acceptable. There is a
significant area of interference to the proposal by Central Island.
7965 MR. RHÉAUME: I guess I'm trying to understand -- and I'm not an
engineer, please bear with me -- what you mean by "can be pulled back
7966 At what point does it become unacceptable and at what point might it be
7967 MR. ALLEN: Well, when the area of interference from the proposed or
suggested station in Vancouver overlaps the proposed contour only out in the
Straits, and we have taken a look at something where if you pull it back this
much then that area of interference, it is there, but it is out in unpopulated
7968 MR. RHÉAUME: So as long as it is over water it would be acceptable to
7969 MR. ALLEN: That's right.
7970 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.
7971 Thank you, Madam Chair.
7972 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
7973 Thank you very much.
7974 I think what we will do is, if it is all right with the Radio Malaspina
people, take lunch now and then come back at -- why don't we say 1:30.
That's all right?
7975 Thank you.
--- Upon recessing at 1145 / Suspension à 1145
--- Upon resuming at 1330 / Reprise à 1330
7976 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ready to continue?
7977 Madam Secretary.
7978 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.
7979 Our next presenter is an application by Radio Malaspina Society for a
broadcasting licence to carry on an English-language FM campus community
programming undertaking at Nanaimo.
7980 The new station would operate on frequency 101.7 megahertz, with an
effective radiated power of 880 watts.
7981 Recognizing that the application was filed prior to the release of the
new Campus Radio Policy, the Commission may with to discuss with the applicant
its plans regarding its adherence to the requirements of the policy.
7982 Whenever you are ready, please go ahead.
APPLICATION / APPLICATION
7983 MR. BIBBY: Thank you, Madam Secretary.
7984 Commissioners, I know this has been a long arduous week for you, so we
will try will try to be as painless and brief as possible.
7985 Unfortunately, our seating arrangement has changed slightly from what
you have on your cover page so, if I may, before I start my presentation I would
just like to introduce these wonderful people who made a long, hard journey over
the Strait this morning on the ferry.
7986 Next to me is Kam Abbott. Kam is our Technical Manager and he came to
Radio Malaspina from the audio engineering end of the television world, with
12 years of experience. Kam is also currently employed at Malaspina
University College in Nanaimo as a Media Technician.
7987 Next to Kam is Danna Gauthier. Danna is Past Secretary and current
Director of the Radio Malaspina Society and a future programmer.
7988 Unfortunately, our Program Manager, Mario Ravello, is home sick with an
ear infection epidemic that seems to be sweeping through Nanaimo these days, so
in his place we have Marc Hooper, who is President of the Radio Malaspina
Society and he will be talking on behalf of Mario.
7989 Next to Marc is John Zador. John is one of our volunteer programmers.
Seated directly behind me is Mark McLeod and John Matthews from Prometheon
Electronics, and they have been very helpful in helping us prepare our licensing
application as well as for this hearing.
7990 Next to John and Mark is Linda Ring, who is also one of our volunteer
programmers; Lynn Hitchcox, who is our traffic co-ordinator; and next to Lynn is
Rose Dickson, who is also a volunteer programmer.
7991 Seated third row back, on the end, is Dan Péon, who is also a volunteer
programmer and a Director and Treasurer of the Radio Malaspina Society, and he
also represents, for our purposes this afternoon, the musical community of
7992 Next to Dan is Brett Christianson and Andrew Coates, two of our
7993 So with the introductions out of the way, I would like to start our
7994 First, we would like to tell you a little bit about Nanaimo. As you can
see from the map enclosed in your handout, the city is situated within eyesight
of Vancouver across the Strait of Georgia on Vancouver Island. It lies amongst
mountainous and hilly terrain with boundaries stretching out north and south for
more than 12 miles along the Island's eastern shore.
7995 It is surprising that Nanaimo's land area is actually larger than that
of the City of Vancouver. As mentioned, the topography within Nanaimo's city
limits is filled with hills and valleys. While scenically beautiful, these
features provide challenges blanketing the area with adequate communication
7996 Nanaimo is the major ferry terminus, transportation and business hub for
Vancouver Island north of Victoria in what is called the mid-island area. The
city's economy has diversified from traditional mining, forestry and fishing
industries to include manufacturing, hi-tech, tourism and service-based trades.
Nanaimo claims to have more retail outlets and shopping malls per capita than
any city in North America.
7997 Now, like other major urban centres in B.C., Nanaimo has experienced a
spectacular population boom over the past decade. This influx of people has
included those from around the world as well as the rest of Canada seeking the
mild climate, scenic beauty and quality of life this part of our country
affords. As a result, Nanaimo has evolved into a rich multi-ethnic and cultural
7998 The city supports the arts with a multitude of theatre groups, art
galleries and performance venues including our new multimillion dollar Port
Theatre. Programs offered by Nanaimo's K-12 school system and Malaspina
University College have been responsible for contributing a remarkably high
percentage of musical talent to the entertainment world including Ingrid Jensen,
Dave Gogo and, of course, Diana Krall.
7999 Gabriola Island, the northernmost of the Gulf Islands is only a short
20-minute ferry trip from downtown Nanaimo and is the home to a large population
of world class musicians, artists, authors and craftspeople. In short, Nanaimo
and area is a cultural and artistic melting pot.
8000 However, Nanaimo is also something of a paradox. The city's close
geographic proximity to Vancouver, as well as Victoria, Bellingham and Seattle,
puts it adjacent to one of the most media-saturated markets in Canada. As Bob
Adshead from Central Island Broadcasting stated earlier in his presentation,
Nanaimo residents can receive over 50 off-air radio and television signals
8001 Nanaimo serves a trading area of over 200,000 people, and yet we have no
local television outlet and are served by only two commercial radio stations.
The domination of external media into the Nanaimo market fragments the cultural
base of our community.
8002 There is no question Nanaimo residents can enjoy an unlimited choice of
radio formats and musical styles. However, Vancouver, Victoria and Seattle news
coverage, talk shows and advertising has little relevance to the people of
Nanaimo. It is also unlikely that these stations will air recordings by local
8003 Our Technical Manager, Kam Abbott, once observed that he knows more
about daily traffic conditions on Lions Gate Bridge than he does about Nanaimo's
8004 On the odd occasion when there are news reports relevant to Nanaimo on
mainland stations, they are usually of a sensationalistic or negative nature
such as political corruption, drug bust or a domestic violence story. Over time
these stories tarnish the city's image without balanced reporting on the
positive things that occur in Nanaimo on a daily basis.
8005 So while Nanaimo residents may have a multitude of radio stations to
choose from, they are underserved by the electronic media at the local level.
Now, please understand, this is in no way a criticism of Nanaimo's two existing
radio stations. We applaud Bob Adshead and his team at Central Island
Broadcasting for over the years they have made sincere attempts at offering a
wider variety of programming but at the expense of their bottom line.
8006 We recognize the pressure of competing in a highly specialized and
demographic commercial radio market and that Central Island Broadcasting needs
to engage rival stations on a level playing field. It is for this reason that we
feel the arrangement negotiated with Central Island Broadcasting is well
conceived to allow them to pursue their destiny while allowing Nanaimo a third
radio station that will provide unprofitable and experimental programming.
8007 Now I would like to talk for a moment about Radio Malaspina and our
relationship with Malaspina Community College. At present student form the
majority of our governing board and comprise over 50 per cent of our
programming staff. It is Radio Malaspina's goal to foster synergy between
Malaspina University College and the community-at-large.
8008 For example, we have recently entered into an agreement in principal
with the Athletics Department to webcast a six game package of Mariner
basketball games early in the New Year.
8009 We will also enter into discussions next month with the Journalism
Department to set up a formal work experience program for journalism students.
There are thriving music and drama programs at the College that can provide an
unlimited source of program material and we intend to pursue this actively with
department heads over the next few months.
8010 Malaspina University College has an ongoing contingent of at least 500
international exchange students from countries including China, Japan, Korea,
Poland and the Czech Republic, among others. We envision Radio Malaspina acting
as a window to the community-at-large for these students by offering programming
in their native tongues to help ease the anxiety of blending into our west coast
8011 We have already originated live broadcasts from the campus, including
Welcome Week celebrations at the beginning of the fall term, and plan to offer
ongoing coverage of campus events such as student elections and concerts.
8012 We would like to touch briefly on the business side of Radio Malaspina.
Included in our handout is a summary of newly projected revenues and expenses.
This has been modified slightly from our licence application and reflects the
changes in frequency, power and coverage pattern.
8013 We will rely on revenue from three main areas: student contributions,
community funding and advertising revenue. I believe our revenue projections are
quite conservative. We have had the pleasure of making several presentations to
local community groups and service clubs over the past few months and have
received nothing but positive feedback.
8014 We anticipate that once Radio Malaspina becomes airborne, there will be
overwhelming financial support from the community through donations and
advertising revenues. We have already held one benefit concert with local
musicians, thanks to the hard work and organization of Dan Péon whom we
introduced to you earlier. We will plan more of these activities which will
serve to benefit, not only Radio Malaspina financially, but also Nanaimo's
cultural community in turn.
8015 While financial projections can sometimes be nebulous, the human
resources at Radio Malaspina are more tangible. Despite the delay in bringing
our application before you, enthusiasm at Radio Malaspina has not waned. In
fact, it has made us more determined to succeed.
8016 As mentioned earlier, we have been webcasting since April 1st of this
year. During this time we have attempted to instill a discipline and mindset
into our programmers that they treat their shifts as if they were broadcasting
over-the-air on FM. Our core of over 50 volunteers have responded and shown up
faithfully for their programs during all hours of the day and night, in all
kinds of weather and regardless of holiday schedules.
8017 Our experiences with webcasting has made the current team of people,
some of whom sit before you today, better equipped and more capable to deal with
the challenges of running a campus-based community radio station. In other
words, the delay in bringing our application before you has made us stronger.
This is not to imply that further delays will turn us into superhumans.
8018 As you know, our initial hearing date was postponed due to interventions
from both Central Island Broadcasting and Rogers Broadcasting Ltd. Since Rogers
dropped their intervention a few months ago, we have been successful in
negotiating a joint arrangement, with the co-operation and goodwill of Bob
Adshead and his team at Central Island Broadcasting.
8019 This has resulted in Radio Malaspina being on a much more solid
technical footing than was originally conceived. Essentially, we will benefit
from a first class transmission facility and reach more listeners in the
northwest portion of our coverage area. This arrangement also allows us to
divert some of the financial resources from the transmission side and into the
production side where it is greatly needed.
8020 The Board of Directors and management of Radio Malaspina takes great
pride in the accessibility afforded students of Malaspina University College and
the community-at-large. We have extended an open invitation to people of all
ages and ethnic groups to get involved, put program proposals together and get
them on the air. As a result of our programmers currently range in age from 16
to 63, representing several ethnic backgrounds.
8021 We have conducted a volunteer recruiting campaign with kiosks in
shopping mall,s as represented by a copy of the picture in our handout.
Recruiting drives in conjunction with Nanaimo's Volunteer Centre have yielded
quality people such as Erlinda Okano, our volunteer co-ordinator with years of
volunteer experience, and ties to Nanaimo's multicultural community; and Al
Webster, a 20 year broadcast veteran whom is now our news and public affairs
director. Unfortunately, neither of these two people could make it today.
8022 We have advertised in the local First Nations newsletter for programmers
and are currently exploring ethnic programs with the Filipino and Islamic
communities. Multilingual and multicultural programming will be core to our
8023 Marc Hooper will elaborate further on our programming shortly, but first
I would like to call upon Kam Abbott to talk a bit about the technical history
and issues with Radio Malaspina.
8024 MR. ABBOTT: Thank you, Gord.
8025 Good afternoon. My name is Kam Abbott, I am the Technical Manager for
Radio Malaspina. I have been working with the Society through the process of
obtaining a licence and launching the station for about three years now. As you
may be aware from Gord's presentation, as of April 1, 2000 we have been
webcasting on the Internet and operating in the same manner as a 24/7 radio
8026 By launching with webcasting, we have had the unique opportunity to work
with and train our volunteers, and recognize any potential problems we may have
not encountered before the launch of an FM station.
8027 We have not had the luxury of many things that commercial broadcasters
may take for granted with experienced, professional staff. This includes such
basic things as using a microphone and how to cue a CD player. Therefore, in
many ways launching into webcasting first has helped us to recognize and correct
many of these technical and logistical problems that would typically have to be
overcome once a station is already on the air.
8028 This has also benefited us because when we do launch with FM service, we
will have a core of volunteers with over a year's experience.
8029 Webcasting has also allowed us to gain credibility within the community,
and we have already built a loyal listening audience. Also, by incorporating
Internet technology into our operations, we are now able to get anywhere in the
community and, as a result, produce a live CD-quality remote with little or no
8030 Some of our functions already include weekly live broadcasts from a
local nightclub featuring local artists, as well as building community
relations, and volunteer recruiting at the college and local shopping malls.
8031 We would also like to recognize Central Island Broadcasting in
supporting us with an agreement to co-locate with their transmission facilities
at Cottle Hill. By using 101.7 and co-locating with their facilities, we are
able to improve our originally proposed coverage to the north end of Nanaimo,
and thereby reach more of our listening audience.
8032 Central Island Broadcasting has graciously offered the use of their
existing antennas, transmitter shack and back-up generator. They have also
offered to install new facilities such as studio-to-transmitter link and an
antenna combining network. We are very grateful to them, for we will receive a
top-notch first-class transmitting facility at no additional cost to Radio
8033 I can also tell you, on a personal note, that I am very excited about
this project. I have been working with the staff and volunteers of Radio
Malaspina almost from the beginning and I have never before worked with such a
8034 Thank you for this opportunity to speak before you.
8035 I will now pass you back to Gord now.
8036 MR. BIBBY: Thank you, Kam.
8037 I will now ask Marc Hooper to briefly speak about the programming.
8038 MR. HOOPER: Knowing that programming is the life-blood of any station,
we have approached this very seriously.
8039 First, we are fortunate to have a Program Director with eight years
radio experience from which we can draw.
8040 Secondly, we have opted to go with a transitional format to accommodate
the wide range of program genres and spoken word ideas that are planned for
8041 Simply put, we will structure music formats that are closely linked
together to give a smooth segue from show-to-show. For example, Wednesdays from
2:00 to 4:00 p.m. is One Love Reggae, followed by World Beat at 4:00 to 6:00
p.m. On Saturdays, at 11:00 a.m. to 12 noon, Classic Rock is followed by Metal
Lunch at 12 noon to 1:00 p.m. Entertainment and sport reports would be mixed in
to add to the transitions.
8042 Thirdly, training our volunteers for on-air presentation is a process we
do not take lightly with an "each one teach one" method for familiarity of
equipment and on-air policies. With the guidelines put in place for protocol, we
are confident that our group of young adults and older programmers will
represent Nanaimo with energy, decency and pride.
8043 MR. BIBBY: Thank you, Marc.
8044 With our indulgence, we have a very, very short, less than two minute
example of what our programming has sounded like so far, over the Web.
8045 Mr. Operator. His voice sounded surprisingly familiar.
--- Laughter / Rires
--- Audio clip / Clip audio
8046 MR. BIBBY: I should point out, those were actual air checks -- or
Web checks, I guess, if you want. Those weren't produced.
8047 Anyway, in conclusion, I would like to thank you for your attention and
for the long anticipated opportunity to speak to you. We believe the City of
Nanaimo is overdue for a new electronic media outlet. The artistic and music
communities have no local broadcast venue through which they can showcase their
talents. Radio Malaspina will meet that need.
8048 Nanaimo is overwhelmed by external media, leaving its residents
fragmented and unable to tune in to local discussions or programs on subjects
relevant to their neighbourhoods. Radio Malaspina can be the glue that binds the
8049 Malaspina University College is a vibrant institution with academic,
arts and sport programs second to none anywhere in Canada and Radio Malaspina
can be instrumental in bringing the campus way of life to Nanaimo residents and
Nanaimo to the lives of the student population.
8050 May we conclude with an example of what we believe is the essence of a
campus-based community radio station?
8051 A few weeks ago we received a call from a young lady named Dianne Burn
as a result of the recruitment drive through the Volunteer Centre. A few days
later we met with her and discovered she was learning-disadvantaged. We also
discovered she played keyboard in a music group with other learning-challenged
people and that they performed often at the College.
8052 Dianne expressed an interest in putting a show on the air and we are
currently exploring what the content and nature of that show might be. It could
be a concert of one of her group's performances or it could be an examination of
what it is like to live as a learning-disadvantaged person in today's
8053 Whatever form the program takes, it will be interesting, relevant and
uniquely Nanaimo. We believe giving people such as Dianne Burn access to the
airwaves is really what Radio Malaspina is all about.
8054 Thank you very much.
8055 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
8056 I will ask Commissioner Demers to question.
8057 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
8058 Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
8059 Could I start with general questions so that we can have an idea of your
station in relation to the previous enterprise that presented, Central Island
8060 You share their technical facilities -- or maybe you will comment
on what I say. I will use general terms so that you can be more precise than I
am -- and now you would be broadcasting on 101.7. Maybe you could describe
what would be the power.
8061 And your studios, I understand you are already netcasting, so are your
studios in the same location as the previous presenter or not? Could you
elaborate or give comments on that?
8062 MR. BIBBY: Thank you, Commissioner Demers.
8063 We actually had a few questions in there as to primarily our relation
with Central Island.
8064 It is true we would be sharing their transmitter facilities, we will be
sharing the same transmission building, we will be sharing the same tower, we
will actually be sharing the same antenna as their current CKWV station.
8065 We will not be sharing the same studios. We have our own studios. They
are based in -- actually, we have two sets of studios. We have small
studios up on campus and our main studios are downtown Nanaimo, centrally
located in the city.
8066 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.
8067 As to the frequency, what is the power that frequency would
8068 MR. BIBBY: The frequency will be 101.7 megahertz and the power will be
2000 watts, 2 kilowatts.
8069 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.
8070 Has some paper been following those changes to the CRTC, or is it the
first time that you indicate that you would be broadcasting on that
8071 MR. BIBBY: We did submit a change of notice through a co-operative
agreement. Both entities advised the Commission and Industry Canada as well of
8072 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you. Maybe we will come back to that.
8073 But let's come to your business plan and your operations -- I have
a few questions there -- maybe on the projected listening audience would be
the first one.
8074 You have projected that your new station would capture 1 per cent
of the radio listening in the Nanaimo market for each of the seven years of the
8075 Is this projection specific to any particular demographic segment of the
market or just a general 12-plus market?
8076 MR. BIBBY: It is hard to pinpoint. I guess I see our format more like
television and of course you don't necessarily watch a particular television
station, you watch a program. Of course I believe that is the way our format is
structured. People will tune into programs, not necessarily listen to our
station as they would CKEG or CKWV. So we probably don't use the same method of
determining our numbers, our demographics as a commercial
8077 Does that answer your question?
8078 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Well, I think it does, if that is the way you
8079 The idea being that you would not come lower. You know, we are used to
presentations where if it is 1 per cent the first year it is more the year
after, and so on, and it seems that you would have, if not a ceiling at least
the same number of people that would be listening to your station from
year-to-year, and that is what I understand your answer is.
8080 MR. BIBBY: Certainly it will increase. I think because we do not
have -- certainly we have fragmentation from outside of the city. We don't
have quite the same fragmented broadcast situation within the Nanaimo area. So I
believe certainly as we grow we become more -- attain a higher profile in
the market our listening audience will certainly grow.
8081 It is really tough to put -- since we are a new service it is tough
to put some tangible figures on that.
8082 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.
8083 In relation to the operator that is already in your area in Nanaimo, or
other stations, do you expect to have listeners coming to you from the radio
stations that exist in your area now?
8084 MR. BIBBY: I suspect there may be a little bit of dropoff, but I don't
suspect -- I think we are really going -- as I say, we are going after
more of a multicultural youth market. We hopefully will be taking some listeners
away from some of the Vancouver stations. I don't suspect we would be taking
many away from --
8085 MR. ABBOTT: I think it is important to point out that we would be
generating, I think, a lot of listeners that weren't currently listening to
radio before because we are filling in needs that weren't being filled by other
broadcasters in the community, the multicultural, the local artists. So there
would be listeners tuning in to hear things that weren't there before, so
we would be generating new audiences.
8086 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.
8087 Now, in your written application you were discussing two models. You had
a Plan A and a Plan B. Is that correct? It still is, I understand,
part of your application that you said that model 1 or Plan A is
essentially a non-commercial model; Plan B is different, is with more
commercial activities in lieu of revenue generating from grants or --
8088 A review of the financial projections -- and you just maybe handed
in further changes -- a review of the financial projections which you have
submitted in section 6.1 of your application lists revenues from both national
and local advertising. Can we assume that these projections are based upon your
so-called B Plan or Plan B scenario?
8089 MR. BIBBY: They are probably based on Plan C now.
--- Laughter / Rires
8090 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Please elaborate on that.
8091 MR. BIBBY: Well, as I mentioned in my presentation, we have submitted a
slightly revised version in our handout and we do allow for differing from our
projections in our application.
8092 We have increased our advertising projections, as well as our
fundraising projections. I think that is due primarily because of the change we
anticipate with the joint arrangement we have with Central Island Broadcasting.
We will now have a more -- a station that will actually reach a few more
listeners in our coverage area than we originally had anticipated.
8093 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.
8094 So you have indicated that there were a few changes here, but those
changes are the ones you are describing now.
8095 MR. BIBBY: That's right.
8096 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Are there other changes in this appendix to your
oral presentation compared to what you already submitted?
8097 MR. BIBBY: No. No.
8098 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Then in Plan C, that is what you are
describing today. How stable, then, is the revenue that you described in your
8099 As you know, in previous plans you had considered student levies and
grants. Is this different now than it was in Plan A or B?
8100 MR. BIBBY: The student levies, the past arrangement we had with the
student levies was conditional on us being on-air by September 1, 1999, so
that -- 2000, I'm sorry. So the fact that we are not yet on-air in 2000,
that particular arrangement has been discontinued. However, we will be going to
8101 As indicated in our handout, we do have a letter from Stephen Littley of
the Students' Union. He is President of the Students' Union and he has indicated
that the students by-and-large do support the idea of a campus radio station and
we feel very confident that we will get -- the referendum will be in our
8102 As far as the advertising funds, I have sold advertising in Nanaimo, I
had a magazine in Nanaimo. The advertising revenue for the magazine far exceeded
my projections here and I think this particular enterprise will have far more
profile in the community than what the magazine did, so our advertising revenues
are quite conservative as are, I believe, the fundraising as well.
8103 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: There is still government funding that I see in the
letter you have filed today.
8104 What are these? What do you have in mind?
8105 MR. BIBBY: Well, government funding would be primarily work assistance
and program grants for various programs. We are anticipating we would get some
of those, as well as assistance with employees or whatever.
8106 We do, of course, have, based on our projections here on Plan C, we
do have a significant -- over the five-year plan we are actually, I think,
running about $114,000 surplus. So there is quite a cushion in there. If we
don't have one particular projection we can basically fall back on another.
8107 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: This is a cushion that I can see where in the
letter? In the appendix to your oral presentation, that is where you would have
8108 MR. BIBBY: I'm sorry. On our net income at the -- I'm sorry, I
haven't extended it out to the right, but if you take the net income after taxes
we will actually have, over the five years, a surplus of $114,000.
8109 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.
8110 Could you go back to revenues where you say "Other (Misc Sales)" and it
is 1.2. The 1.2, these are in thousands?
8111 MR. BIBBY: Those are in thousands, yes.
8112 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: In thousands, okay.
8113 What is behind miscellaneous sales?
8114 MR. BIBBY: We have entered into an agreement in principal with The
Navigator, which is the community newspaper, and it is possible we could share
some co-operative sales, co-operative promotions, so this would be revenue that
would be generated, say, from their side on our behalf.
8115 It could be souvenirs as well. We have T-shirts printed up, toques, and
things of that nature.
8116 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.
8117 I understand also that your Plan C is based on the new policy of
the Commission with respect to community stations where you can advertise more
8118 MR. BIBBY: Up to four minutes per hour, yes.
8119 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Okay. On the frequency.
8120 Some of you certainly were here during the week, is there anything to
add on the use of your frequency? In other words, from what we have heard today
there is a kind of understanding as to the possibility of using that frequency.
There is no conflict. Comments?
8121 MR. BIBBY: Perhaps I should turn that over to our resident expert on the
frequency because it is not really my bailiwick, as I'm sure you have
8122 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: You are lucky to have a resident expert on
8123 MR. BIBBY: Anyway, perhaps I could call on John Matthews to talk to that
8124 Thank you.
8125 MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you.
8126 Commissioner, you will be happy to know that this one is relatively
8127 101.7 in Nanaimo is simply not available in Vancouver or Victoria
because in each of those markets CITR and CFUV respectively, the university
stations, are using a first adjacent channel, so it is a channel that is only
really suitable for use in Nanaimo and that is what makes it so attractive to
8128 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.
8129 A question here that you have heard before probably: If for any reason
that frequency were not available, would you be able, ready and willing to use
another frequency if it could be found for the purpose of your FM station?
8130 MR. BIBBY: Absolutely.
8131 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Would you use an AM frequency?
8132 MR. BIBBY: Only if B.C. Hydro would donate power for a year.
--- Laughter / Rires
8133 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: I understand they heard.
--- Laughter / Rires
8134 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: That would be the end of my questions, Madam
8135 Counsel may come back to conditions of licence.
8136 Thank you, Madam Chair.
8137 MR. BIBBY: Thank you.
8138 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.
8139 THE CHAIRPERSON: I just have one question and only again because we have
asked it of everybody.
8140 Mr. Matthews, do you have any studies that we don't have that you
could file with us on the frequency issue? When you said this was quite
straightforward, it meant there were no more.
8141 MR. MATTHEWS: The question of the use of 101.7 in Nanaimo is quite
8142 Going into this whole process we did study, of course, all available
potential frequencies in Nanaimo and, of course, this application was originally
8143 But we did turn up a third possibility, just to make your job all the
more confusing. 107.7 might also work in Nanaimo, but it is very close to the
top of the FM band and therefore might run into some problems with clearance
from the people at Nav Canada.
8144 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm looking at our technical genius and seeing if you
would like those for your files, the collection of technical maps and
--- Laughter / Rires
8145 THE CHAIRPERSON: This is a very congested area and any information we
can get would think --
8146 MR. MATTHEWS: You will be provided with a full report.
8147 Thank you.
8148 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
8149 I don't have any questions, but I believe counsel does.
8150 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam Chair.
8151 It is actually Mr. Bibby and colleagues, just a little bit of
8152 Conditions of license that flow from the Campus Radio Policy, I believe
you have indicated in your application that you have agreed to all of them and
these have to do with spoken word, station-produced programming, Category 3
music, level of hits, and you have discussed just now, I guess, advertising
8153 So do you still agree to all of these conditions of licence as per the
8154 MR. BIBBY: Absolutely, yes.
8155 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.
8156 I believe your engineer has indicated just now that the frequency you
are applying for is not available for Vancouver. Do you have any studies on
that, or do you have any tests?
8157 MR. MATTHEWS: It is a straightforward matter in this case. Again, the
material will be described in the report, but in this case we have first
adjacent channels already in both Vancouver and Victoria that simply exclude the
possibility of the use of the channel in Vancouver.
8158 MR. RHÉAUME: So based on your application for this frequency, you
shouldn't be here.
8159 MR. MATTHEWS: If you say so.
--- Laughter / Rires
8160 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.
8161 Thank you, Madam Chair.
8162 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, counsel.
8163 Thank you very much.
8164 You can go now. Thank you.
--- Laughter / Rires
8165 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are finished with you.
8166 You are excused. Perhaps that's what I should say to students.
--- Laughter / Rires
--- Upon recessing at 1416 / Suspension à 1416
--- Upon resuming at 1420 / Reprise à 1420
8167 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary.
8168 MS VOGEL: The next item is the application by Rogers Broadcasting
Limited on behalf of Rogers Radio (British Columbia) Ltd. for a broadcasting
licence to carry on an English-language FM radio programming undertaking at
8169 The new station would operate on frequency 107.1 with an effective
radiated power of 215 watts upon surrender of the current licence issued to
8170 The applicant is proposing a gold-based adult contemporary music
8171 The applicant is also requesting permission to broadcast simultaneously
on the AM and FM bands for a period of three months before surrendering the
current licence issued to CFSR.
8172 Please go ahead whenever you are ready.
APPLICATION / APPLICATION
8173 MR. MILES: Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson, members of the
8174 It looks like we have cleared the house so we are here together.
8175 I am Gary Miles, the Executive Vice-President, Radio Operations, Rogers
Broadcasting. With me today, on my immediate right, are: Erin Petrie, the
General Manager and Program Director of CFSR-AM Abbotsford; and Steve Edwards,
Vice-President Engineering. To my immediate left, Karen Young, the owner of
Great Lengths Marketing Group and President of the Abbotsford Chamber of
Commerce; and Brian Baynham, the Chair of the Rogers Broadcasting Vancouver and
Area Local Advisory Board.
8176 Behind me, sitting at the far end of the table is Wayne Stacey of Wayne
Stacey and Associates, one of Canada's leading broadcast engineering companies.
And back there, Wolfgang Von Raesfeld, Vice-President, Rogers Broadcasting
and Vancouver Market Manager.
8177 We are before you today to present our application to change the
frequency of CFSR-AM Abbotsford from 850 kilohertz on the AM band to
107.1 megahertz on the FM band.
8178 We believe that the approval of this application would be in the public
8179 One, it will increase the choice and diversity of high quality,
community-responsive radio programming for listeners in the Abbotsford area;
8180 Two, strengthen the Abbotsford radio market and the Canadian
8181 Three, have no impact on the Vancouver radio market;
8182 Four, involve and help to build the local community; and
8183 Five, make the most efficient use of available radio frequencies.
8184 My colleagues on the panel will address each of these points, beginning
8185 MS PETRIE: The City of Abbotsford is located in the Fraser Valley, east
of Vancouver on the south side of the Fraser River, between Langley and
Chilliwack -- just a 10-minute drive from the Sumas border crossing into
8186 Abbotsford was established in the late 1800s as a commercial centre for
the local forestry industry. Today, over 135,000 people live in the City of
Abbotsford. It is B.C.'s fifth largest city, after Kelowna. It is a dynamic
community with a diverse local economy and a distinctive personality. Unlike the
big City of Vancouver to the west, agriculture still plays a strong and visible
role in our local economy, and it helps to preserve a unique rural character in
our rapidly growing community.
8187 Abbotsford is served by two local radio stations, both of which are
owned by Rogers Broadcasting. CFSR-AM, the subject of this application, is a
local AM radio station with an oldies format. SKVX-FM-1 rebroadcasts the
regional radio programming service originated by CKVX Chilliwack.
8188 Rogers Broadcasting acquired the Fraser Valley radio stations, including
CFSR-AM in Abbotsford, in September 1999. Since then, we have worked hard to
improve the service that these radio stations provide. As you can see from the
letters that we filed with our application, the residents of Abbotsford
appreciate our efforts. Karen Young will have more to say about that later in
8189 We are looking forward to providing even better local radio service in
Abbotsford, if this application is approved.
8190 We will increase musical diversity for listeners in Abbotsford by
replacing the hit-driven oldies AM format with the richer and more diverse
gold-based adult contemporary FM format. At the same time, we will ensure that
listeners continue to have access to distinctive local programming choices, the
contemporary modern rock format on XFM and the more retrospective gold-based
adult contemporary format on the new FM station.
8191 Our proposed new FM station will also offer high quality local news and
surveillance programming that is strongly oriented to Abbotsford. That
programming will be designed to serve the needs and interests of a very diverse
8192 For example, we will provide extensive agricultural reports twice daily
to serve the large agricultural community in the Abbotsford area.
8193 We will provide detailed road reports to meet the needs of the large
number of commuters and business travellers in our area. Those reports will
include up-to-the-minute information on high traffic areas from airborne traffic
reporters, including: Highway 1, the main route into Vancouver for
commuters over the Port Mann bridge; Highway 7, the Lougheed Highway
serving Maple Ridge, Pitt Meadow and Coquitlam corridor; and Highways 10 and 11,
the principal road connectors to the U.S. border and to the ferries.
8194 Local events in Abbotsford will be covered throughout the day in a
community events report called "What's Happening". Those reports will provide
local listeners with information on every day events in the community, as well
as major events such as the Abbotsford Air Show, the Abbotsford Business
Excellence Awards and the Abbotsford Christmas tree lighting ceremony.
8195 We will also bring a knowledgeable local perspective to bear on news and
sports reporting. We will cover the local news events and the local sports
matches that really matter to listeners in the Abbotsford area. For example, we
will cover local sports events, like the Junior "B" hockey games played by the
Abbotsford Pilots; local environmental issues, like the Sumas Energy 2
controversy; and local politics at the municipal, provincial and national
8196 The conversion of CFSR-AM to an FM radio station is critical to the
implementation of this service improvement strategy. Of course, local listeners
will benefit immediately from the higher technical quality of an FM radio
signal. And that is an important benefit all on its own.
8197 In addition, this proposed conversion will allow us to compete more
effectively with out-of-market radio stations. It will allow us to put a local
radio station back on the map in Abbotsford.
8198 There are at least 28 out-of-market radio stations available in
Abbotsford, including 16 U.S. FM radio stations based primarily in Seattle
and 12 Vancouver-based radio stations. These out-of-market radio stations
account for 83 per cent of all 12-plus listening in the Abbotsford area.
Faced with this kind of competition, CFSR-AM currently has great difficulty
attracting listeners and advertising revenues due to the poorer technical
quality of its signal.
8199 The previous owners tried to respond to this out-of-market competition
by providing higher quality programming. However, they found that they could not
sustain the cost of that programming. Audiences want both higher quality
programming and the higher technical quality of an FM signal.
8200 The approval of this application will allow us to create a stronger and
more effective local radio voice for the residents of Abbotsford. It will
strengthen the Abbotsford radio market and the Canadian broadcasting system as a
whole by repatriating listeners from those 16 foreign FM U.S. stations.
8201 We can accomplish all of this with no direct impact on or reliance upon
the larger nearby market of Vancouver.
8202 Both the 3 millivolt and the 0.5 millivolt contour for our proposed
new FM radio station will fall well outside the Vancouver area. As such, CFSR-FM
will not be "listenable" in that larger, neighbouring radio market and clearly
would not be a Vancouver radio service based on the Commission's established
8203 Like all Rogers Broadcasting radio stations, CFSR-AM makes every effort
to maintain very close connections with the community that it serves. We do that
in a formal way through the Rogers Broadcasting Vancouver and Area Local
Advisory Board and informally through ongoing consultations with key community
leaders and groups. We will continue these practices.
8204 Brian Baynham and Karen Young have a few comments to make in that
8205 MR. BAYNHAM: My name is Bryan Baynham. I am a partner in the Vancouver
law firm Harper Grey Easton and I have been a member of the Rogers Broadcasting
Vancouver and Area Local Advisory Board for over a decade. Prior to that, I was
a member of the Selkirk Advisory Board when the Vancouver radio stations and
Mountain FM were owned by that company.
8206 I want to advise the Commission that Rogers Broadcasting is committed to
ensuring that its local advisory boards play an important and effective role in
the operation of its radio stations. In my experience, Rogers Broadcasting
always welcomes and acts upon, where appropriate, the views and recommendations
of the advisory board. Meetings are held regularly and are attended by local
staff and senior executives from Rogers Broadcasting's head office.
8207 I believe that the Rogers Broadcasting Vancouver and Area Local Advisory
Board is a very effective sounding board for local input. It provides an
opportunity for local station management to present their plans for the future
of their radio stations and to receive community input on those plans. The
advisory board is also an excellent forum for Rogers Broadcasting to gain a
better understanding of the issues and concerns within the community and to
consider ways in which Rogers Broadcasting radio stations could respond to those
8208 I am pleased to advise the Commission that Dr. Skip Bassford,
President of the University College of the Fraser Valley, has now joined the
Vancouver and Area Local Advisory Board. Dr. Bassford represents the
communities in the Fraser Valley that are served by Rogers Broadcasting radio
8209 My experience on the board continues to be a very positive one. I
believe that we do help Rogers Broadcasting provide better, more responsive
radio programming for our respective communities.
8210 MS YOUNG: Karen Young.
8211 I want to tell you something about myself first. I have been a resident
and business owner in Abbotsford for 20 years, and am very involved in my
community. I am President-Elect of the Abbotsford Chamber of Commerce. I have
been a board member of the Abbotsford Symphony Orchestra for three years, in
charge of marketing. I have been a volunteer trainer for the United Way, Fraser
Valley for five years. I am a past member of Rotary's
8212 I have been involved in many other community projects over the years,
including three years of preparation for the 1995 Western Canada Summer Games, a
successful event that local radio also heavily supported.
8213 Rogers Broadcasting filed a number of letters of support from residents
of Abbotsford with its application. Many of those letters came from members of
organizations I have been involved with, including Abbotsford Chamber of
Commerce members. I am very pleased to have this opportunity to tell you in more
detail how much the support of Rogers Broadcasting and CFSR means to the
business and civic organizations in Abbotsford and why it is so important that
the proposed move to FM from AM is approved by the CRTC.
8214 Since purchasing CFSR-AM, Rogers Broadcasting has demonstrated that they
understand the importance of strong local radio programming services. A strong
local radio service provides the much needed opportunity for local businesses to
reach their target customers with affordable advertising. It also helps to build
a sense of community that benefits community-based organizations and civic
groups. This is especially important in communities like Abbotsford, where there
has been rapid growth.
8215 I have seen the importance of CFSR as our local station firsthand. The
support of CFSR has been instrumental in building awareness of the symphony,
which benefits the arts community and, in turn, benefits the community as a
8216 This community commitment is something that is not and cannot be
provided by he numerous Vancouver stations also heard in the Abbotsford market.
This is why your approval to move CFSR to the FM band is so important. We need
to ensure that our local station has the widest possible local audience to
ensure that businesses reach their customers and that clubs and organizations
can inform the largest number of Abbotsford residents about their events. To do
this, we need a financially healthy local radio station on the technically
superior FM band.
8217 As an Abbotsford business owner, I am often in my car driving to various
appointments. While a traffic backup on McCallum Road is not important on the
Vancouver stations that are heard in our market it is very important to
8218 No station in Vancouver cares about our new Arts Centre and a possible
referendum, though it is a hot topic in Abbotsford.
8219 No station in Vancouver has as much at stake in reporting an escape from
a local penitentiary, but that is something local residents are very concerned
about. I rely on CFSR for this information and would prefer to hear the station
and music on the FM dial.
8220 Since Rogers Broadcasting acquired CFSR-AM, we have seen clear evidence
that they are committed to providing a higher level of local radio service.
Chamber events such as the golf tournament, monthly luncheons and annual gala
receive substantial support from CFSR. They want to help residents become more
informed about important local events, and they are committed to working with
members of the community to make Abbotsford a better place to live and to do
8221 One current example of the support we have received from the radio
station is advertising of the Chamber of Commerce All Candidates Forums for the
upcoming federal election. In addition, the station has also broadcast all
candidates forums for each of the three local federal ridings. Informing the
public on issues of concern, such as the federal election and the Sumas Energy 2
Project are part of the commitment the station has shown to the community.
Having this type of local information, plus news and traffic, available from
local voices is so important.
8222 Abbotsford is B.C.'s fifth largest community, comparable in population
to Kelowna. We deserve to have CFSR as our local station available on the
technically superior FM dial.
8223 The rotary clubs in Abbotsford also enjoy the awesome support of CFSR,
as annual fundraisers such as the "Hole-in-One" tournament are promoted through
community announcements, sports commentary, and the involvement of local media
personnel who attend the event and add colour. This particular event typically
raises $40,000 which goes to projects such as literacy or hospice.
8224 We wanted to be a part of this application because we know from
experience that Rogers Broadcasting will do what they say. If you approve this
application, Rogers Broadcasting will work with us to create a strong and
effective new FM radio station that best serves our local community.
8225 I urge you to give the residents of Abbotsford access to CFSR on the FM
8226 MR. EDWARDS: It has been the policy of the Commission for some time now
to approve AM to FM conversion applications where the conversion would benefit
the local community, contribute to the objectives of the commercial radio policy
and result in an efficient use of available radio frequencies.
8227 You have heard in this presentation how the conversion of CFSR-AM to an
FM radio station would benefit the local community and contribute to the
objectives of the radio policy. But it would also be a highly efficient use of a
radio frequency that would otherwise go unused.
8228 FM frequency 107.1 megahertz would not normally be available for use in
Abbotsford because it does not meet the minimum separation distance required by
Industry Canada to either CKVX-FM in Chilliwack on 107.5 megahertz or to CISQ-FM
Squamish on 107.1 megahertz. A broadcaster is not obligated to accept this type
of short spacing because it could result in damaging interference and could
place severe limitations on future technical changes.
8229 In the case of 107.5 megahertz in Chilliwack, Rogers Broadcasting is the
licensee company. After careful study, we determined that we could waive our
right to protection for two reasons.
8230 The first is that as the licensee of both frequencies we would be in a
unique position to make any technical changes needed to optimize the performance
of these second adjacent frequencies.
8231 Secondly, if there were to be an area of interference, listeners in the
affected area would not lose access to the CKVX-FM service because the full XFM
regional service would continue to be available to listeners in Abbotsford on
the CKVX-FM-1 rebroadcaster on FM frequency 92.5 megahertz.
8232 In the case of 107.1 megahertz in Squamish, we believe that the low
power proposed for our use of that frequency in Abbotsford, combined with the
distance between the transmitter sites and the relatively low height of the
Abbotsford transmitter site, will ensure that there is no harmful interference
in the Squamish coverage area.
8233 Concerning the proposed use of 107.1 megahertz in Vancouver, we
will provide evidence in our reply to the interventions that
107.1 megahertz is not available for use in that market.
8234 To state it simply, we are proposing to use 107.1 from a transmitter
site atop Glen Mountain in the heart of Abbotsford at 900 feet above sea level.
This Abbotsford location is some 100 kilometres from Squamish. The proposed
usage of 107.1 megahertz in Vancouver, on the other hand, would be from Mount
Seymour at a height of 3,000 feet above sea level, only 40 kilometres from
Squamish. The use of 107.1 in Vancouver would violate Industry Canada rules and
would inevitably result in severe interference in the local service area for
CISQ-FM in Squamish.
8235 MR. MILES: Madam Chairperson, Members of the Commission, we believe that
the approval of this application would be in the public interest for the
following five reasons.
8236 One, it will increase the choice and diversity of high quality,
community-responsive radio programming for listeners in the Abbotsford area;
8237 Two, strengthen the Abbotsford radio market and the Canadian
8238 Three, have no impact on the Vancouver radio market;
8239 Four, would involve and help to build the local community; and
8240 Five, make the most efficient use of available radio frequencies.
8241 We appreciate this opportunity to appear before you to present our
application and would be pleased to answer any questions that you may have for
8242 We also, Madam Chair, have another part that we may want to include into
the record. We have been here observing and we know the interest of the
Commission in this public hearing for some ability to utilize frequencies and
make some available. The advantage of being here for a long period of time is
the igniter's flame has been doused so we are --
8243 THE CHAIRPERSON: We hope so.
8244 MR. MILES: Yes, we hope so.
8245 Secondly is that we really have been able to make that observation.
8246 So we can either wait for the question, of which we were not asked
because we are not applying for a Vancouver frequency, but we do have a couple
of recommendations and suggestions.
8247 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, I was going to say, I really thought that I had
been studying under the --
8248 MR. MILES: Sure.
8249 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- being tutored by our expert, Mr. Lubienski(ph),
and I thought I myself had become a technical expert, but hearing all this I
realize how woefully complicated these issues are.
8250 So why don't I start by saying, anything that you can share with us with
respect to information or studies that you can give the Commission today will be
very much appreciated.
8251 MR. MILES: Okay.
8252 THE CHAIRPERSON: And perhaps you could even elaborate, then,
additionally on what some of these options are.
8253 So any studies and paper and maps you can leave us, wonderful.
8254 MR. MILES: This is going to be interesting, because --
8255 THE CHAIRPERSON: And maybe I will be able to ask you
8256 MR. MILES: As we go along.
--- Laughter / Rires
8257 MR. MILES: The great thing about being Friday afternoon is I sort of
assume the rules are sort of out the window because --
8258 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, the rules aren't out the window, but fortunately
there aren't many people in the audience.
8259 MR. MILES: -- I had to wear my --
--- Laughter / Rires
8260 MR. MILES: I was torn between wearing my dress up and my dress down but,
in any case, I am going to be a suit after looking at those kids from Simon
Fraser this morning. I thought they were great. It was a great presentation.
8261 THE CHAIRPERSON: But having said that, maybe what I will do first is, I
do have a couple of other questions.
8262 MR. MILES: Okay.
8263 THE CHAIRPERSON: So maybe we can do those and then get to this.
8264 One from the oral presentation.
8265 MR. MILES: Yes.
8266 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have two transmitters for CKVX. Is that
8267 MR. MILES: There is one in Abbotsford and there is one in --
8268 THE CHAIRPERSON: So they are on two different frequencies.
8269 MR. MILES: Two different frequencies, yes.
8270 THE CHAIRPERSON: I see, okay.
8271 MR. MILES: Yes. Yes.
8272 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good.
8273 MR. MILES: Just while you are going through that, you will get the most
non-technical response from me.
8274 THE CHAIRPERSON: I won't actually be expecting you to answer the
8275 MR. MILES: You will get a very passionate technical response from Steve
Edwards, who has been the architect of all of these frequencies, particularly
Mountain FM. And you will get the most dispassionate, but probably highly expert
opinion, from our friend.
8276 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
8277 I am interested in the issue of the out-of-market tuning.
8278 MR. MILES: Yes.
8279 THE CHAIRPERSON: I wonder if you could just -- I know this was
originally a non-appearing item, but it would be helpful for me to just
understand a bit how the out-of-market tuning affects the station, particularly
what you expect to achieve in terms of both audience and revenue repatriation.
If you could just --
8280 MR. MILES: Can I start from the beginning and then I am going to have
Erin elaborate more on the programming responses.
8281 But if we go back in history about these AM radio stations that were in
Hope and Chilliwack and Abbotsford, they were very viable radio stations under
the previous owners and it was at a time when there were less signals going into
the market, there were far fewer FM radio stations, and these stations were a
vital part of the community.
8282 I know that because the sales manager from those places actually is
working for us and has been working for us about 10 or 15 years in Gary Milne.
And we have all known the former owners in terms of our association of the
8283 Very similar to other AM radio stations, in our experience in
Lethbridge, Smiths Falls would be another good example of these kinds of AM
radio stations that were connected with the community.
8284 What happened as the competition intensified, in other words signals
came in, and the problem is that on an AM frequency it is a lot tougher to make
the switch and make the turnaround. So the former owners tried to invest a bunch
of money into the programming on the AM and it didn't work and it just gradually
got stripped down. Of course that is self-fulfilling prophecy, as you take more
and more services away there are less and less people who are going to worry
about listening to it.
8285 The phenomena that we have seen in terms of markets like this that are
in close proximity to major markets is that the people in Abbotsford want their
own local radio service, but they have to have it on a signal and it has to be
of a quality that is the same as the major market attached close to it.
8286 Lethbridge is a good example of that one, where we have operated a very
successful AM radio station down there. It serviced the rural people. We had to
apply for a conversion to FM and the Commission granted that, because our
audience just disappeared on us. It wasn't able to serve because now, all of a
sudden, there are a bunch of more FM signals into Lethbridge.
8287 These people, when they drive out of Lethbridge and they go into
Calgary, they expect to hear the same quality programming.
8288 Wolfgang Von Raesfeld, who looked after our Kitchener market prior
to coming out to Vancouver, is a more classic example and perhaps a lot similar
to the problem here in Abbotsford. Here is Kitchener, which has four radio
stations, two AMs and two FMs, and yet you go seven miles out of
Highway 12 and you are on the 401 and there are 35 radio stations
and they are all of a nature that is very good programming, they are very
quality programming, and so these people expect their local radio station to
have that same quality of programming.
8289 That is what we are suggesting here, is that Abbotsford needs its own FM
radio station, but it must be of a quality nature that when they drive out it
stands up to the competition, not just from Vancouver in this case, but from the
United States. There are 16 signals coming in from the United States.
8290 So with that in mind, that is what Erin is attempting to do with the
programming. When we got the stations there was that level of -- for the
record, a very minimal level of programming service. Erin has raised it to
another level and we need to go to the step further.
8291 So perhaps you could talk about how we plan on repatriating some of
8292 MR. PETRIE: I would be pleased to. Thank you.
8293 We were looking at the fall 1999 BBM figures when we see 83 per
cent out-of-market tuning. I would like to note that that includes 12.9 per
cent which belongs to our other FM in the market.
8294 So we are looking at 5 per cent listenership to this AM radio
station, and yet we are effective with the business and civic communities. That
is because, you know, people want to listen to their local radio station,
whether it is to the eight o'clock news or they listen to a specific feature or
they hear that we have an agricultural report. We can't keep the kind of hours
tuned that we need to have to be financially viable and to grow our
8295 For example, you may listen to us in the morning as a resident of
Abbotsford to hear what is going on in town. When you get to work, you are
probably listening to an FM station. It is just more suited to at-work
listening. It is just a better quality sound.
8296 So we have to compete with the QM-FMs and the KISS-FMs. Bellingham,
which is just across the border, just across the Sumas border crossing,
The Café is very successful in our market. In fact, while Karen wouldn't
admit it, she does listen a bit to The Café, okay. I didn't want to mention it,
but she does.
--- Laughter / Rires
8297 MS PETRIE: Out of Seattle, what is called Star FM 101.5, which you
will also see advertisements for in the Vancouver area, is very well
8298 So what we would like to do is to move this frequency to FM to give us
the best chance to service our local market. We would like to have 10 per
cent listenership; 15, sure. Let's face it, Vancouver has terrific radio
stations, a broad range of formats, you are not going to your 11 year old son or
daughter to listen to the local station just because they are on FM. There are
specific formats for them, both our XFM in the Fraser Valley, Z95 if they like
rock, you know, all of that.
8299 But what we would like to do is grow our share, and I think right now we
have a 5 per cent share and it is slipping. We do a terrific job locally.
Our people are hugely committed to different organizations in the Abbotsford
area. I sit on the Board of the Abbotsford Foundation, the Media
8300 We have a representative on the Crime Stoppers Board which is one of the
most innovative and successful Crime Stoppers organizations in Canada. We have
our morning show co-host who is President of the Big Sisters organization. What
we would like to do is to have a chance to convert this to really help the
residents of Abbotsford provide a good, high quality radio programming, make us
more financially viable.
8301 MR. MILES: I am going to ask Wolfgang to comment on it in a minute, but
the reason that we can do this is because we have the resources in our parent
operation of the programming expertise, we have the resources in Vancouver that
we help to build this up with. So as operating within this cluster area we have
programming resources, we have sales resources, we have news resources --
vast news resources because of News 1130. We have all of that expertise that we
can take and put into here to build up that radio station, because at the end of
the day it is going to have to compete with those major market radio
8302 Wolf, you have had some experience of that.
8303 I'm sorry.
8304 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe what I could do is just sort of -- in terms
of the repatriation, something is working because your numbers -- you have
nearly tripled the hours, have you, from eleventh to third between fall 1999 and
8305 MS PETRIE: You are speaking about XFM our regional programming service,
modern rock format. We are not in the BBM book.
8306 MR. MILES: That's what it was.
8307 MS PETRIE: We couldn't afford it.
8308 MR. MILES: Frankly, that is part of an example, that is great example,
Madam Chair, of how we were able to do it.
8309 That radio station, when we took it over, I don't even think it
was -- well, they subscribed to the BBM, I don't think they had anything
except checkmarks down it. It is that kind of service provision that we will be
able to do.
8310 I apologize. Did I answer your question?
8311 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think so.
--- Laughter / Rires
8312 THE CHAIRPERSON: Actually, obviously we have had a little mix-up here
because my question is very much -- it says CKMA, so you are saying it is
8313 MS PETRIE: We are in the BBM book this year, but that book doesn't come
out until December 10 so I doubt that the information that you have is
specific to CFSR-AM. I would guess that it is XFM.
8314 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, that's fine. It just says Spring 2000 numbers.
8315 MS PETRIE: We hope that at the time of our licence renewal with you that
those will be the numbers that we will have in seven years.
8316 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
8317 Maybe we could now go to the technical, Mr. Edwards.
8318 MR. EDWARDS: Do you have a few hours?
8319 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, not a few hours.
8320 MR. EDWARDS: Okay.
--- Laughter / Rires
8321 MR. MILES: First of all, let's start with this and we are going to try
to keep this -- no, I don't think we can keep it -- well, we can keep
it easy --
8322 THE CHAIRPERSON: Simple.
8323 MR. MILES: -- simple, but we can't keep it easy. Okay.
8324 While we are not applying for a Vancouver licence and we are not asked
to comment on ideas and solutions re spectrum for Vancouver, we want to offer
the following for your consideration to the public hearing in the interests of
the Canadian broadcasting system.
8325 One, we believe that 88.1 would be a viable frequency for use in
Vancouver if used from Saturna Island. We have a tower and facilities on Saturna
Island. We will provide the facilities to whomever the Commission may choose to
license. This offer, of course, is contingent upon our application before you
8326 Number two, will also make available our 850 AM tower, transmitter
and facilities in Abbotsford to either the Aboriginal Voices Radio Group or the
Simon Fraser Campus Radio Society. We will further provide funding to pay for
the operating expenses of this transmission facility for seven years. This offer
is contingent upon us being granted 107.1 frequency in Abbotsford FM.
8327 We will file this letter with the Commission following this one.
8328 So there are two things, there is Saturna Island at no cost, and we will
actually pay for the facilities for the use of 850 AM, if the Commission so
wants to use that frequency.
8329 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
8330 MR. MILES: Okay. Let's try to start with, now, the other issue.
8331 The intervention against the use of 107.1 FM, in other words save that
frequency for Vancouver because it can be used. Unfortunately it was based on
the premise that 107.1 was not being used in Squamish. It is being used in
Squamish. It is the Squamish radio station. It is Mountain FM.
8332 And it is not just Squamish. Squamish is the middle point of the Sea to
Sky Highway. Twelve years ago we took over this facility from Louis Potvin and
transmitters were nailed to trees, they were placed in places behind mountains,
and Steve Edwards took this on as a bit of a personal mission, and I say that
with the greatest degree of love because he saw what Louis was trying to do, and
Louis was trying to provide some service.
8333 For those of you who don't know this area, there are no other local
radio facilities that can get into it. There are lots that bounce over and there
are lots that come back from Whistler, but there is nobody that services this
corridor that starts when you turn around the corner at Lionhead and you start
up and get not only to Whistler but actually to Pemberton.
8334 What happens on this road is that the conditions can change every 10
miles. You can come out of Vancouver with a sunny sky, you can get up as far as
the McDonald's place at Squamish and it is starting to rain, and take another
three hours to get further up the hill because it has now turned into snow.
8335 In fact, our advisory board members on Wednesday, I think it was, Brian,
we had an advisory board meeting in Vancouver, Liz Chapman, who lives up in
Whistler, was late for the meeting because of a rockslide.
8336 This is what this radio station, Squamish or Mountain FM does. We have
invested untold amounts of money in providing better service about road reports,
conditions, we are on the air every 10 minutes with road reports, weather
updates. And this is what we do, we service this whole vital community.
8337 So that is what 107.1 is.
8338 THE CHAIRPERSON: I wonder if I could just interject here.
8339 MR. MILES: Yes.
8340 THE CHAIRPERSON: From what we have seen presented to us and what has
been said in the course of these discussions about the use of this frequency, I
don't think anybody suggested -- I'm sorry.
8341 I think the suggestion has been, to the extent that we have had
discussions, that any interference with that signal would take place around
Bowen Island and the water and that there would not -- well, that's why I'm
glad to have you here.
--- Laughter / Rires
8342 MR. MILES: Perfect.
8343 THE CHAIRPERSON: Clearly we understand the issue -- I mean at least
understand the geography, that you need to have that signal sort of Squamish
down to Lions Bay -- not Lionshead, Mr. Miles, Lions Bay --
8344 MR. MILES: Yes, that's right. Yes, Lions Bay.
8345 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- because basically when you turn the corner you lose
all the Vancouver stations and that is when you pick up Squamish. So there
really is a big cutoff.
8346 So I think we understand that and I think we have all talked about that
a fair bit.
8347 MR. MILES: Okay.
8348 THE CHAIRPERSON: So what I was really interested was (a) that area of
interference that would be around Bowen Island and the extent to which --
and I don't know the answer to this -- we didn't bring our coverage
maps -- transmitters in Gibsons and Sechelt might cover any
8349 Given that I think, as you know, what we are really trying to do here
is, this is a very congested area with respect to frequencies and we are really
trying to see what we can do to see if we can find some and make the most
efficient use of this spectrum.
8350 MR. MILES: We are going to, then, move to Steve and then to Wayne.
8351 We have some maps and things and we were going to file them in reply to
the intervention, so you may hear the same material twice but,
8352 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is fine.
8353 MR. MILES: -- we are going to go through it, okay.
8354 So, Steve, I guess the best thing is to explain, with your map, a bit of
the issues that the mountains are not quite the mountains.
8355 THE CHAIRPERSON: Technical tutorial.
--- Pause / Pause
8356 MR. EDWARDS: It is working? Yes?
--- Pause / Pause
8357 MR. EDWARDS: Can everybody see that?
8358 MR. MILES: We do have copies of this for everyone.
8359 THE CHAIRPERSON: Excellent.
--- Pause / Pause
8360 MR. MILES: Steve was actually first in his class in Show And Tell many
years ago and it is coming through now.
8361 MR. EDWARDS: I'm on Show And Tell.
8362 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Lubienski, can you see these maps all
8363 MR. LUBIENSKI: It will be all right.
8364 MR. EDWARDS: I would like to start with a larger area map at the
beginning, if I could.
8365 This map covers most of greater Vancouver and a good part of the Fraser
Valley. That is the proposed Abbotsford transmitter site. That is 100 kilometres
8366 This is the proposed Mount Seymour transmitter site, which
8367 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could I just clarify something here.
8368 As I understand it, virtually all of the Vancouver FM stations are
located on Mount Seymour --
8369 MR. EDWARDS: That is correct. All of them.
8370 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- because of the geography it just means that they are
8371 MR. EDWARDS: It is also the only place that is effectively available to
broadcasters in Vancouver.
8372 There used to be transmitters on Grouse Mountain and we had to move them
to Mount Seymour because they didn't want them there any more. There used to be
transmitters on Burnaby Mountain, they were kicked off there -- higher
power ones -- and there used to be transmitters at the base of Mount
Seymour, but they have all been relocated over the years to the area. We have a
tower, CBC has a tower and CHUM has a tower.
8373 THE CHAIRPERSON: And they don't interfere with one another when they are
8374 MR. EDWARDS: Well, again, we have heard a lot of very loose talk this
week about "You can do this" or "You can do that", "Did you try this". That
isn't the way the system works.
8375 There are 30 or 40 years of experience have gone into the rules and
procedures that Industry Canada has established which define the relationship
between all the different frequencies.
8376 If you violate those you run a major risk of the system collapsing, if
you like, because if there isn't respect for existing signals then you end up
with a sort of Italian solution, but I won't get into that.
8377 In any case, I just wanted to give you a larger area picture there and
now I am going to move more directly to --
8378 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The middle dot is Mount Seymour?
8379 MR. EDWARDS: Pardon me?
8380 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The middle dot --
8381 MR. EDWARDS: The middle dot is Mount Seymour, exactly. And that is the
8382 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Where is the 850 tower?
8383 MR. EDWARDS: Pardon me?
8384 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Where is the 850 tower?
8385 MR. EDWARDS: This is the Abbotsford FM proposed site.
8386 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes, but where is the tower for the 850 AM?
8387 MR. EDWARDS: It is in that same vicinity, more out in the open, in this
sort of area in here.
8388 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And where is Grouse Mountain?
8389 MR. EDWARDS: Grouse Mountain is next door there.
8390 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Why is Seymour better, is it just --
8391 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is the only one available.
8392 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: It's higher?
8393 MR. EDWARDS: It's not an issue of what is -- it would be
equivalent. It would work perfectly well, but the owners of Grouse Mountain
weren't interested in having transmitters in the middle of a ski slope so they
asked everybody to leave.
8394 That is when, actually, we built our tower on the Mount Seymour in 1983
to act as a common site. There is something like 50 antennas on that tower now
and an awful lot of broadcasters use that. CBC's tower is also very congested
and this is immediately adjacent to --
8395 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How many towers are there at Mount Seymour?
8396 MR. EDWARDS: There are three. There is a tower that was built by CHQM
many, many years ago, in the early 1960s, and then the CBC tower was built after
that and then the Rogers tower built by Selkirk in the early 1980s.
8397 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are the TV stations there as well?
8398 MR. EDWARDS: That is correct.
8399 Now we could move this out of the way.
8400 To begin the discussion I could give you a short version and a long
8401 The short version is that it is not a river and signals do turn the
8402 The long version I will give you now.
8403 I would like to begin the discussion by describing the geography of the
Howe Sound area.
8404 But just to make sure that we are all well located, that is the west
end, that is Stanley Park, the Lions Gate Bridge, Mount Seymour is just over
here, that is Horseshoe Bay, Lions Bay, Britannia Beach, and that is Squamish.
The current Squamish transmitter site is right there.
8405 Now, I would like to begin the discussion by describing the geography of
the Howe Sound area and CISQ's ongoing efforts to deal with the very daunting
challenges posed by the rugged terrain in that area.
8406 I will then ask Wayne Stacey to discuss his analysis of the impact of
the proposal to use 107.1 megahertz in Vancouver, as well as some of the
regulatory issues that are involved.
8407 Now, I sort of feel fairly well qualified to discuss the technical
challenges faced by CISQ because I have been closely involved with the station
for its entire 20 year history, or almost all of it.
8408 It took a number of frequency and antenna changes during the course of
the 1980s to achieve reliable reception in the CISQ prime coverage area, which
ranges from Horseshoe Bay through to Whistler and on up through -- I'm
sorry, through Squamish and on up to Whistler, a total of about
8409 One of the major limitations that we have yet to overcome is that we
cannot transmit a stereo signal without unacceptable multipath, for reasons that
I will explain. Our efforts to improve CISQ's transmitting facility are ongoing
and we are planning an antenna change, a power increase, and the possibility of
using synchronous repeater transmitters to improve the coverage.
8410 Let me describe the geography that has made the task so difficult.
8411 The CISQ transmitter site is located on a 750 foot hill top
adjacent to Squamish. Right there. It is only accessible by helicopter.
8412 Not far south of Squamish is a major jog in Howe Sound caused by a 1,700
foot high hill. Right there.
8413 It would have made an excellent transmitter site itself, but it has no
access, no power and it is in a provincial park. The direct signal to the
highway is essentially blocked from that point south to Horseshoe Bay. However,
there is a significant range of mountains on the west side of Howe Sound. Right
8414 That range of mountains has peaks ranging from 5,000 to 7,000 feet above
sea level, and these mountains reflect the signal back to the highway on the
east side of the sound. So in this area we have direct coverage. Anywhere below
we are talking about this sort of thing.
8415 The signal level is very erratic because of that along the highway, but
provides reliable monaural reception. In effect, what we have is a signal going
up and down like that. It is very, very changeable and it is changeable with
seasons, with weather, with location, because the reflections are changing all
8416 Because the signal along the highway consists only of reflections, it is
very sensitive to interference.
8417 I would like to read to you an extract from a 1988 technical brief
submitted in support of an application to change to 107.1 megahertz.
"This change in frequencies is required to overcome severe first adjacent
channel interference within CISQ's coverage area."
8418 This was the second time that they had to change frequencies. The first
time was for exactly the same reason.
8419 The terrain in the Howe Sound area is doubly unkind to CISQ. It makes
coverage of its prime market difficult, while at the same time providing little
protection from interfering signals.
8420 Let me explain why. First, mountains to the east of Howe Sound are
lower, mountains in this area here. Peaks there are a maximum of 5,000 feet and
many are less. They have a different orientation than those on the left
8421 If you looked out the right window of the plane as you came in, you
would have noticed there are a number of valleys that march along like that, and
they create paths.
8422 Signals are able to propagate towards Howe Sound over and between these
mountains. Remember I mentioned that these mountains ranged up to 7,000 feet.
Signals can propagate over there and they can come back to the highway, like
8423 It is important to note that we are not talking about significant
distances here. The distance from the Squamish transmitter site to Mount Seymour
is only 25 miles. It is only 12 miles to Lions Bay. This is incredibly lower
than the minimum spacing required by Industry Canada. In this case it is 140
miles which is required normally between two channels of that class.
8424 As well, Bowen Island has two significant peaks, one almost 2,500 feet
high -- that is called Mount Gardener -- and they reflect signals
directly up Howe Sound. Effectively what we have is two mirrors and we get that
kind of problem as well.
8425 The aerial photograph that I brought with me today is a bit of a help in
explaining what is happening here.
8426 If you can see this, this photograph was taken from about 1,500 feet
above Vancouver in a helicopter. That is half the height of the transmitter site
on Mount Seymour.
8427 If you look there you can see a lot of mountains. Those mountains are on
the far side of Howe Sound.
8428 If you look through here, that is the first of the valleys, that is
Cyprus Bowl. But there are others further up and they provide paths for the
signal to get through.
8429 This is Bowen Island here. That peak there is almost half a mile high.
That peak is very well illuminated from Mount Seymour. Wayne will talk more
about that later. But again, providing a good path of signals to come over and
8430 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Those reflected signals from Vancouver, are they as
unreliable or as sporadic --
8431 MR. EDWARDS: Absolutely.
8432 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
8433 MR. EDWARDS: Absolutely.
8434 THE CHAIRPERSON: Which would explain why, for the most part, that I say
when I turn the corner to go to Whistler I don't really get any other signals.
It doesn't mean I never get them, but --
8435 MR. EDWARDS: Well, it depends on your car radio for sure.
8436 THE CHAIRPERSON: Probably because I broke my aerial and it only goes
--- Laugher / Rires
8437 MR. EDWARDS: It has certainly not been my experience over the years. It
has certainly not been Wolfgang's experience.
8438 I spoke with Perry Chan just on that very subject: Has anything changed
over the years? I don't get out here quite as often as I used to. I moved to
Toronto in 1985, so this is my happy hunting ground here.
8439 But Perry is the Manager of Mountain FM and without priming him at all I
just said "Could you tell me how far you can receive Vancouver radio stations up
towards Squamish?" and he says "I receive them all the way. He listens to CKKS
as he drives to Squamish.
8440 Now, I'm not saying it is great quality. Most people wouldn't want to
listen to it because those are stereo signals and with all those multiple paths,
that is the very definition of multipath and it is awful.
8441 Lou Potvin has tried to transmit in stereo when he first established a
station and it was absolutely impossible, totally unusable. But that doesn't
mean that the signals aren't there.
8442 Mono is a great equalizer. It helps a great deal to overcome
difficulties with FM.
8443 What was I going to say there? Oh, yes, it was a very good question
about the way the signals vary.
8444 They are also quite low signals. I'm not saying -- radio receivers
are very sensitive. These are not big signals we are talking about, it takes
very little. But what happens is, you will get two independent signals veering
like that, and there are places where the Squamish signal will prevail and a
quarter of a mile down the road the Vancouver signal will prevail. It doesn't
have to be that you can only get the Vancouver station. In a way, it would be
simpler if it was that way.
8445 The problem is that you are going back and forth all the time. We are
talking about co-channel interference here. This is the very worst possible kind
of interference that you can have, because it doesn't matter how good your
receiver is, it is tuned in both cases to exactly the same programming, or at
least the same frequency. So what you do is you get both of them adding
together. If one is enough greater than the other it will suppress quite nicely
the unwanted one.
8446 But the problem is that in this area you can't predict. As I say, it
varies throughout the day, throughout the season and with weather. This is
20 years of experience that we have all had with this station.
8447 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: If you have two -- from the same frequency
you have two signals coming in from different areas --
8448 MR. EDWARDS: Yes.
8449 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: -- will they be at a slightly time? Will you get
them at different times?
8450 MR. EDWARDS: Yes. And that is exactly what multipath is. The definition
of multipath, why they use the word, if you only have a direct signal the radio
is very happy, but if you have a signal that goes a different route and comes
back to that receiver, there is going to be a difference in the time that it
takes so, in effect, it is exactly like a ghost on a television receiver. That
8451 The problem is that FM was never designed to have a stereo component.
That was added later. There is a pilot that tells the receiver that it is a
stereo signal, and if it jitters around, that is multipath and that is the
effect that you get in your car.
8452 So if all the Vancouver stations were mono it may help, I'm not sure,
but at the end of the day you still have a different set of signals on the same
frequency and it would cause severe interference to the radio receiver.
8453 Now, Wayne Stacey has a map in his report indicating his prediction of
the area that you would have interference in the Howe Sound area. Again, it is
related to the relative values of the signals. But this is what it looks
--- Pause / Pause
8454 MR. EDWARDS: Now, I personally believe, based on my experience --
mind you, I am a little biased -- that that is conservative. I believe that
right up to that point you are going to see intermittent interference. It is
going to be most heavy here, it is going to gradually decrease.
8455 It is very difficult to say what the major contributor is of the paths
of interfering signals, but my belief is that it is Bowen Island. It really does
act as a great mirror.
8456 I think that is about as far as I need to go right now, but my belief is
that there is no question that terrain blocking can be a practical way of
increasing spectrum efficiency.
8457 In fact, we are relying on it ourselves. If you remember the previous
map, we are 100 kilometres from the transmitter site with the
CFSR proposal, that is 100 kilometres, that is 60 miles. The normal
spacing is 240 kilometres. So we are already very significantly short
8458 If you will recall that quote, I stopped purposely a little short, the
frequency that was interfering at that time, the source of the transmission of
that was that site. At that time, that was before Star FM added a
transmitter on Mount Seymour. The frequency of Squamish at that point was 104.7.
That frequency was 104.9. It wasn't even co-channel interference.
8459 Now, the difference is that that was a much higher power at that point
because they were trying their best to reach into Vancouver. It was something
like 12 kilowatts and the average power we are proposing here is, I think, 215
watts. That gave us some comfort that we could make it work.
8460 So it is not an idle suggestion that there will be interference, there
has been interference and there has been interference from that far away. The
previous change was made necessary by the Victoria station interfering with 98.3
in Squamish, because Victoria is straight south from there and it is a another
direct route for an interfering signal to come.
8461 But my final point is, given the fragile nature of the CISQ signal in
Howe Sound and the inadequate blockage of incoming interfering signals, the
proposal to use 107.1 in Vancouver simply makes no sense.
8462 Now, I had a lot stronger language there before, but I was told it
wouldn't be professional, so I will leave it at that and I will hand it over to
Wayne to discuss his report as well as some of the regulatory aspects.
8463 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. One other thing that I am interested in, though,
is the Gibsons and Sechelt transmitters.
8464 I don't know if this is the right time or wait. It doesn't matter when
we do this.
8465 MR. EDWARDS: No, it is a perfectly valid question.
8466 Gibsons is not a repeater of Squamish, it is a repeater of Sechelt.
8467 It is our ongoing intention and increasing efforts to increase the
amount of programming in the Sunshine Coast area. This transmitter is essential
to that, because that is what provides the off-air signal for both Sechelt
itself and for Pender Harbour.
8468 So the programming here is only the same as Squamish when there isn't
Sunshine Coast programming.
8469 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is my question: How much Sunshine Coast
programming is done that is different from --
8470 MR. EDWARDS: At this point it is, I think, two hours a day, but that
will grow steadily over the years.
8471 We have seen the Mountain FM market growing and we are starting to see
the Sunshine Coast market growing as well. So they are two different groups of
8472 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I wasn't sure the extent to which it was just a
straight repeater of Squamish and how much was its own independent
8473 MR. EDWARDS: No, it's not a repeater.
8474 THE CHAIRPERSON: It's not a repeater.
8475 MR. EDWARDS: It is a repeater of Sechelt.
8476 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is a repeater of Sechelt which does local
8477 MR. EDWARDS: Yes.
8478 MR. MILES: To clarify that, right now the current licence calls for two
hours and 30 minutes a week. We were doing two hours a day.
8479 To Steve's point, we were trying to figure that out -- about six
months or a year ago, Wolfgang -- yes.
8480 We have had to pull back on that because there wasn't the support that
we thought there was for it. That doesn't mean that we are not going to go back
and do it, because these people do demand their own service and we hear from
8481 So that is where we are on that one.
--- Pause / Pause
8482 MR. STACEY: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
8483 What I would like to do here briefly is explain to you a little bit
about what the Industry Canada rules mean in this particular case.
8484 The 107.1 assignment that Rogers has at present for Mountain FM at
Squamish is what is called a Class B allotment. Better than that, it is an
unlimited Class B allotment. Basically it means the station could operate
up to 50 kilowatts with an antenna height of 150 metres. Operating at those
parameters would entitle it, in most circumstances, to a protected service
radius of 65 kilometres.
8485 Now, if you take the present site at Squamish and you plot off 65
kilometres you end up with a circle that goes out into the water here and comes
around through Vancouver. So a strict application of the rules, the way they
stand now, would say that no one could encroach on that circle.
8486 Now, even when stations are not achieving that circular coverage, it is
still important for them to be able to retain the future potential of those
unlimited allotments, because it gives them the freedom to make changes, if
necessary, in order to improve service.
8487 Now, one of the things about this site at Squamish is that it is fairly
low, relatively speaking, to the height of the terrain in that area. There is an
application now going forward that proposes to change the antenna here and to
increase the power, but retain the site. Steve has explained to you some of the
vagaries of transmission that occur in this kind of terrain.
8488 So it is quite important for Rogers to be able to retain the flexibility
to make changes if the changes that they are not going to propose for Squamish
in fact have to be modified further. That could include a site change, and a
site change could mean coming further down Howe Sound, shooting back into
Squamish, and shooting down here in order to cover the mouth and the area down
here that currently gets service only via signal reflection.
8489 The situation we are dealing with here is co-channel interference.
Co-channel is very difficult to deal with. When you have adjacencies, first
adjacent, second adjacent, the receiver selectivity gives you something to work
with. If you have a better receiver you can reject the appearance on the
adjacent channel. But, by definition, co-channel means it is happening on the
frequency that the receiver is tuned to, so there is really nothing you can
8490 There are a few basic things that one does in order to mitigate
8491 One is, you put the stations far enough apart.
8492 The second is, you put the antennas down lower, because then the signal
won't radiate as far.
8493 The third thing is, you make adjustments to the antenna patterns and the
8494 In this case, because of the short distances, it is very difficult to do
anything in Vancouver on co-channel that would be practical, in our view. The
difficulty there is that you have only a short distance, it is 31 kilometres
from Mount Seymour to the middle of Bowen Island. It is only about
23 kilometres down to Horseshoe Bay.
8495 So if you were going to try to cover this area of Vancouver with a
signal that did not interfere in this part of Howe Sound, you would have very
little power, if any, coming in that direction. So then you say to yourself
"Well, if you don't have any power there, how can you possibly cover North
Vancouver and West Vancouver?"
8496 That is the dilemma that we see in trying to use a channel that has to
serve down this far and protect it from a station that is trying to use the same
frequency over here. The only thing you can do, since the distances are fixed,
is modify the antenna pattern or the power, or both. But if you do that, then
you affect the service.
8497 So in looking at what the possibilities are for 107.1 in terms of being
able to share it, we just don't see that that is, for two reasons. It inhibits
the ability -- the future flexibility to make changes here, and it
certainly, from a Vancouver station's point of view, would inhibit the service
to that part of the city.
8498 I think that pretty well covers the area that I was asked to talk
8499 I have done a written report that projects the interference that you see
both on 107.1 and the alternate frequency that was suggested by an intervenor,
106.9. Basically it doesn't change very much, a little bit of movement up or
8500 But that is the area that has to be protected. That is the area where
the interference would occur.
8501 MR. EDWARDS: Wayne, could you describe for the Commissioners the process
that you have to go through if you propose to short space an existing
8502 MR. STACEY: That is the thing. It is very easy to stand at a hearing
like this and say glibly "This frequency would work" or "That frequency would
work." As an engineer who does this all the time, I tell you, it is a lot harder
when you are sitting at your office in front of your computer trying to figure
out how exactly you can do it and come up with a proposal that will meet the
rules, that will not cause undue interference with other stations, that will
have an achievable antenna pattern that someone can actually build and deliver
8503 And, thirdly -- although it may not be connected here, or it might
be -- the question of interference to NAVCOM facilities, all of which has
to be taken into account when you do this.
8504 It is also sometimes tempting for people to look, when they try to do
drop-in frequencies, to see only what they have to protect, in other words, make
sure they are not interfering with somebody else, but it is equally important to
make sure they are not going to interfere with you. You have to look at it on a
8505 And there are many, many occasions when you could actually put a drop-in
in a place, make it work in terms of protection to other stations, and then you
discover that unfortunately the interference you have to accept from that other
station is just totally unacceptable.
8506 So it is not something, in a very complicated case like this, that you
can do very easily. It takes a lot of work and I daresay there is no one here
who could guarantee to you that a frequency could be made to work and could be
approved both domestically and internationally without sitting down and doing a
great deal more work than I have seen done on this so far, including the work
that I have done myself.
8507 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
8508 MR. EDWARDS: I have one other thing that I could add to, before we go,
8509 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
8510 MR. EDWARDS: First of all, I have copies of all this material to give
you, but I would like to touch on one other point. This picks up on something
that Wayne says, or appears to say.
--- Pause / Pause
8511 MR. EDWARDS: You can change the antenna set, and in fact I think that is
what Mr. Elder was proposing at one point.
8512 THE CHAIRPERSON: The antenna pattern?
8513 MR. EDWARDS: The antenna pattern. You could make a simple statement that
we can put in a directional antenna and that would solve all your problems. It
wouldn't send any power that way.
8514 Well, antennas don't work that way. They are fairly accurate, but they
are not surgical instruments.
8515 We already have a very good example of a directional antenna on Mount
Seymour. Now, the ones that are receivable all the way up to Squamish, they are
also directional antennas and they are all basically looking south. They are
all -- or slightly southwest, but it is basically a half circle antenna,
8516 But there is one antenna that is far more directional than even that, it
just happens to be the CKVX-FM-2 antenna. The reason it had to be directional is
because it is protecting the station at Sechelt.
8517 I will give this pattern to look at now, but it is included in the
material I am going to give you.
8518 That pattern has an absolute null towards Bowen Island and it has a full
null all the way in that arc between the two. In theory, it radiates nothing in
8519 Now, Industry Canada rules say that you can't assume anything more than
a 20 DB difference, which is 100-to-1. That station is not receivable all
the way up to Squamish, but it is receivable to Britannia Beach. In theory,
though -- and I'm not saying it is good quality, I am saying the signal is
there, and this is a co-channel signal we would be talking about again. That
signal is available all the way to Britannia Beach and in theory there is no
power going in that direction.
8520 So I guess, again saying what Wayne said and what I said before, the
problem is the distance. There is just no buffer zone. Where you are normally
looking at 240 kilometres, we have 40. That is a huge difference.
8521 I would be absolutely stunned if Industry Canada would even consider
that. And that is the difficulty. We are sort of doing this backwards here. You
are being asked to deal with things that are Industry Canada's
8522 And it is very easy for somebody to come up who is looking for something
else and say "Well, if you do that it will work just fine." We have to live with
8523 So in a sense I have gone from applying for an Abbotsford licence to
defending a Squamish licence. That is kind of an odd wrinkle, but so we have
8524 Thank you.
8525 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you
8526 One other thing I think I would like to do while I still have these
technical people here, is, there has been discussion of a number of other
possible frequencies, either 99.9 for Abbotsford, you know, some of the other
FMs, and I just want to ask for your views on the possible use of any of these
frequencies that have been asked.
8527 Have you done any studies and can you give us anything and enlighten us
any more on other options for the CBC, any of the other applicants, in addition
to what you have raised here?
8528 MR. MILES: We should be fair, by the way, to the use of 107.1 in
Vancouver. I think it came about as a result of a natural error in what happened
with a study that was commissioned.
8529 In that study it really did say that 107.1 and 106.9, by the way, could
be used in Vancouver, but it said that the assignments are currently shown on
the plan as TD or tentative deletions, therefore the licensee Rogers
Broadcasting must have agreed to the deletions because they would have required
8530 Well, we had not agreed to the deletion and so, therefore, that sort of
throws the whole thing out in terms of how those things could work.
8531 That study that I am referring to, which we will address more formally
in our reply to the intervention, it also notes 88.1 or 88.3 would provide other
viable alternatives, which is why we suggested that we were able to hopefully
add to the broadcasting system for use of our facilities on Saturna Island
8532 For other frequencies in Abbotsford, it really does beg the question,
which is: It is 107.1 in Abbotsford because that is the only one that we
can work with and, if we don't, where are you going to put 107.1? Are you going
to put it into Vancouver? That is the whole issue.
8533 So we thought we were actually doing a favour to the system.
8534 The two engineers who will speak to this one were ready to not receive
any more of my phone calls when I said "You have to carve out something without
bothering the rest of the broadcasters because there is a scarcity of
frequency." This is what they did, they said "Well, we can come up with 107.1
because all the problems are our own."
8536 MR. STACEY: You asked the question, Madam Chair, particularly about
99.9, I believe.
8537 I would like to say first of all, though, that when we started this
project we went through a very rigorous analysis of all 100 channels in the FM
band for Abbotsford.
8538 As you will appreciate, we have a problem in the Lower Mainland which is
not unique to Canada, but it certainly is one of the few areas where you are in
a community adjacent to two larger metropolitan communities, particularly
Vancouver and Victoria, but you are also adjacent to a very large American
market in Seattle/Tacoma. These cities have already chewed up a great deal of
the band. There is very little to work with.
8539 So I have to say that 107.1 was the best of the 100 that we looked at
and that is, of course, why we put that forward as a proposal. It fit reasonably
well with the AM service that we were looking to replace, the CFSR 850 service.
Those maps have been tabled with the Commission and you can see how well it
8540 One of the main advantages of that frequency, 107.1, is that it does not
have to accept interference from other stations to any great degree. A few
seconds ago I said that a lot of people lose sight of that when they do these
analyses. They try to make a proposal that will protect other stations and they
are not careful enough about the interference that they have to accept
themselves from those other stations, and it is definitely not reciprocal.
8541 So what happens when you look at frequencies like 99.9 is you discover a
couple of things.
8542 First of all, it is third adjacent to CFOX Vancouver, and in theory,
according to the current rules of Industry Canada, you cannot assign a third
adjacent channel inside the service area of an existing station without that
8543 That rule may change, but to the best of my knowledge the direction the
department is heading in that regard is to allow third adjacents to be used in
the same market only when they are co-sited, not when there is a fairly large
separation between them.
8544 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can I just --
8545 MR. STACEY: Yes.
8546 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, I wouldn't normally do this.
8547 What does that mean exactly, that they are both on the tower at Mount
Seymour for instance?
8548 MR. STACEY: Yes.
8549 MR. EDWARDS: Or at the very least on Mount Seymour.
8550 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
8551 MR. STACEY: With, let's say, a kilometre, half a kilometre or, better
still, exactly on the same tower.
8552 Certainly any of the three sites on Mount Seymour would be considered
co-sited as far as the department's rules are concerned. Besides, no one much
lives up there so if there is a little bit of interference near the tower it
doesn't really cause a problem.
8553 However, when you have a station like CFOX with a fairly large service
area that extends into the Fraser Valley, they would have to concede on that
point. They would have to waive their right under the current rules, or Industry
Canada would have to make some determination to force that. Their tendency
recently has not been to do that. They like broadcasters to work together on
8554 We saw no reason when we were looking at 99.1 to think that CFOX would
necessarily accept that kind of an incursion into their territory and waive
their right to protection.
8555 But I think what is even more important is that there is a great big
barn-burner of a station in Seattle on that frequency, and Erin mentioned, I
believe, 16 stations that come in from the United States, one of which would be
this particular station I'm sure, CISW, and again it is co-channel interference.
There is nothing you can do at your receiver to get rid of co-channel
8556 That station is there, it is operating a full 100,000 watts with a very
high antenna, and its interfering contour would pass to the north of the
Abbotsford site, meaning that there would be a fairly significant area of
interference that Abbotsford would have to accept were they to use
8557 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right.
8558 Now, I am going to take advantage of us being here, unless everyone is
being driven mad by this, but if I can just interrupt you there and ask: But
what about 99.9? If in fact it was co-sited, could it be used by anybody
8559 For instance, we have had both AVR and Simon Fraser and other possible
lower power --
8560 MR. EDWARDS: You are talking Mount Seymour now?
8561 THE CHAIRPERSON: Whatever. Maybe what I should do is not be so specific
and just say: Of all the frequencies that have been discussed and all the
various locations that have been talked about, together with any others that we
may not know about given that we have something like 11 applications, do
you know of any other -- any options that haven't been explored that may be
solutions to any of these.
8562 MR. STACEY: Perhaps we could talk about 88.1, which was mentioned
8563 Again, because that channel is very close to channel 6 television,
we are in a situation where it really has to be co-sited. Co-siting means
putting it on Saturna Island.
8564 I have looked at that channel. It is a Class C allotment, appears
to be unlimited. The only restriction technically to it seems to be that you
would have to crank the power down a little bit from normal in order to make it
compatible with CHEK-TV.
8565 It looks to me as if from Saturna Island, with the very high antenna
there, that you could probably operate in the order of 10,000 watts, which
towards Vancouver would certainly put the protective contour well up past North
8566 So without commenting on who might be a suitable candidate for that, it
certainly looks like a channel that should not be overlooked in terms of
something that can serve the whole area.
8567 Steve has a comment.
8568 MR. EDWARDS: I have two comments. One is just following up on that.
8569 It also provides quite excellent coverage of Victoria in terms of where
the contour would go.
8570 But Erin gave me something that illustrates a good point of why it is
kind of helpful to think about the other broadcaster.
8571 In Abbotsford, going back to 1999 for a moment, the transmitter site
that we are proposing to use is the one that we already used for XFM. It is
right in the middle of a suburb. The tower was there first and the houses have
come up right around it. It is on a hill. It is right there.
8572 This is not the same sort of situation as the Nanaimo application, which
is also third adjacent to a Vancouver station. In that case it is across water
so it is out of the formal market of the station and the transmitter site is in
a relatively isolated location, so the number of people that would be
affected -- what happens here is you put a bullet hole of interference
around that transmitter site, the secondary one, either in this case Nanaimo or
8573 In this case the bullet hole would encompass a goodly number of homes
and streets. In the Nanaimo case I'm not sure how many, but it probably wasn't
8574 The difference again is, this is not across the water in somebody else's
market. This is in CFOX's market. Their share of tuning in Abbotsford is
10 per cent. Do you really think that they are going to agree out of the
kindness of their heart to give up the coverage that they have in that area?
8575 Again, you can't do these things in isolation and just ignore other
8576 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
8577 I don't know if any -- Commissioner Cardozo.
8578 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I just wanted to understand a little more about
the offer you have made with regards to 850 AM.
8579 The reason you are offering that is because we have talked about if you
licence one of them on what they had applied for the other was 107.1, and you
have offered to cover the operating expenses for seven years. What would be the
expenses for them over and above that?
8580 MR. MILES: When I say "expenses" I am talking about the transmitter
8581 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.
--- Laughter / Rires
8582 MR. MILES: I'm not -- even though they looked like they didn't work
for very much money --
--- Laughter / Rires
8583 MR. MILES: But I believe that the -- here is the figure that I will
propose. We will cover the operating expenses up to $50,000 a year for seven
years for them.
8584 I think in there, because remember the application for their FM was
actually going to be --
8585 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That is $50,000 a year?
8586 MR. MILES: For seven years.
8587 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes.
8588 MR. MILES: Their application, their FM -- if we are talking about
Simon Fraser, and that is the one that I was here for, they were going to put
the transmitter site right above their studios. Now, they would have to get the
signal down to the transmitter site from Simon Fraser.
8589 I think in that $50,000 there is enough room in there to help reduce
their costs of getting that transmission done.
8590 Your question was: What additional expenses would they have to have?
8591 They would have to get the signal from their studios down to the
850 AM site. I think in the figure that I just quoted, there is enough give
in there, unless the power gas prices go up the way they continue to go up, and
they might, it is maybe $10,000 to $15,000 additional.
8592 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. The reason I ask is, there was another
8593 MR. MILES: Sure.
8594 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: -- on another frequency and the additional costs
ended up being quite large on a different --
8595 MR. MILES: Look, I think it costs you somewhere in the -- our
experience has been it costs us in the neighbourhood of about $35,000 to $45,000
to operate AM transmitter sites. It doesn't make much difference whether they
are in Abbotsford, Smiths Falls, Victoria. It is around about what the cost of
power is, and things like that.
8596 The beautiful thing about the equipment these days is it is such solid
state stuff that it is usually very reliable and you don't have those kinds of
8597 MR. EDWARDS: To add a little bit more to that, there is a significant
difference between the proposal that CHUM made, which I was really pleased about
because we hadn't thought of that and it is a great way that both of us could
8598 The difference in that case, though, is that they would have to build a
brand new facility adding onto their site, and that is expensive. It could bring
with it further operating costs.
8599 In this case, it is an existing site so the cost would --
8600 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And compared to having an FM frequency, what is
the difference in --
8601 MR. EDWARDS: The main difference is it would be mono.
8602 But Wayne could speak to the coverage that you could expect.
8603 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The expenditure part of it though.
8604 MR. EDWARDS: Oh, I'm sorry.
8605 The Abbotsford site is a 10 kilowatt transmitter and power costs
compared to a -- well, if they were on -- in the City of Vancouver
they would probably be talking about a very low power transmitter, 500 watts or
something like that, and the costs would be quite low there.
8606 For an 18 kilowatt -- I'm sorry, a 10 kilowatt transmitter,
the power cost would be perhaps something in the order of $12,000, $15,000
8607 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And 850 AM covers how much of Vancouver?
8608 MR. EDWARDS: Wayne, could you deal with that?
8609 MR. STACEY: Well, dealing here with a 10,000 watt day and night station
utilizing four towers with a directional pattern that more or less squirts
towards Vancouver, I would say that the map that I have here that originated
from Industry Canada certainly shows the protected service going over
8610 That being said, though, I don't have the night interference-free
service area, and it is possible that that probably is reduced.
8611 But, nevertheless, you can see from the map that was filed with the
Abbotsford application, that the 5 millivolt contour certainly creeps up on
Vancouver, which is a fairly substantial service for an AM station, and you
would have additional coverage probably over most of Vancouver, but at a lesser
8612 I can't really be much more definitive than that, without precise maps.
But they are available. The Commission has these available as well, both day and
night, to see what the AM service would provide.
--- Pause / Pause
8613 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you very much.
8614 THE CHAIRPERSON: I just want to check to make sure Mr. Lubienski
has everything he needs.
8615 No more questions? Okay.
8616 MR. MILES: We will stay all day if you want.
8617 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, no, it's okay. I think we are finished.
8618 Thank you very much. We appreciate your coming in.
8619 This concludes phase -- oh, I guess I don't say those words before
8620 We are drawing to the conclusion of Phase I, and I would like to
say for the record that we have heard some revisions to some of the applications
and these will be taken under advisement by the panel.
8621 Any party can comment or object in the course of the intervention
8622 This concludes Phase I.
8623 I will repeat this at the commencement of Phase II, which is nine
o'clock on Tuesday morning.
8624 Thank you.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1530, to resume
on Monday, November 27, 2000 at 0900 / L'audience
est ajournée à 1530, pour reprendre le lundi
27 novembre 2000 à 0900