TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU
CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT / SUJET:
APPLICATIONS FOR FM RADIO LICENCES
DEMANDES DE LICENCES DE RADIO FM
|Hilton Vancouver Metrotown
||Hilton Vancouver Metrotown|
|Room Crystal III
||Salle Crystal III|
|6083 McKay Avenue
||6083, avenue McKay|
|November 23, 2000
||Le 23 novembre 2000|
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio-television and
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
Transcript / Transcription
APPLICATIONS FOR FM RADIO LICENCES
DEMANDES DE LICENCES DE RADIO FM
|BEFORE / DEVANT:|
||Chairperson / Présidente|
||Commissioner / Conseillère|
||Commissioner / Conseiller|
||Commissioner / Conseillère|
||Commissioner / Conseiller|
|ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:|
||Legal Counsel / Conseiller juridique|
||Hearing Manager / Gérant de l'audience|
||Secretary / Secrétaire|
|Hilton Vancouver Metrotown
||Hilton Vancouver Metrotown|
|Room Crystal III
||Salle Crystal III|
|6083 McKay Avenue
||6083, avenue McKay|
|November 23, 2000
||Le 23 novembre 2000|
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
|APPLICATION BY / APPLICATION PAR|
|APPLICATION BY / APPLICATION PAR|
|Mainstream Broadcasting Corporation
|APPLICATION BY / APPLICATION PAR|
|Aboriginal Voices Radio
Vancouver, B.C. / Vancouver (C.-B.)
--- Upon resuming on Thursday, November 23, 2000
at 0900 / L'audience reprend le jeudi 23 novembre
2000, à 0900
5015 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Welcome.
5016 Madam Secretary, please.
5017 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
5018 Before we start with our first applicant this morning, we have a request
that if you have a cellphone, could you please turn it off; or, if you need to
be contacted, could you just set it to vibrate instead of ring, please. Thank
5019 The first item on our agenda today is an application by CHUM Limited for
a broadcasting licence to carry on an English-language FM radio programming
undertaking at Vancouver.
5020 The new station would operate on Frequency 94.5 MHz, with an effective
radiated power of 54,000 watts.
5021 The Applicant is proposing a smooth jazz specialty format, with 66 per
cent of the music drawn from subcategory 34, Jazz and Blues.
5022 Please go ahead whenever you are ready.
APPLICATION / APPLICATION
5023 MR. WATERS: Good morning. Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, if I
might, I would like to introduce the panel who is with me today.
5024 First of all, my name is Jim Waters. I am the Executive Vice-President
of CHUM Limited and President of CHUM Group Radio.
5025 With me today, on my left, your right, is Duff Roman, Vice-President of
Industry Affairs, CHUM Limited. On my right is Ross Davies, Vice-President of
Programming, CHUM Group Radio. Beside him is Paul Ski, Vice-President of CHUM
Group Western and General Manager of CFUN and CHQM-FM.
5026 Behind Duff is Kerry French, Director of Research, CHUM Group Radio
Sales; Carl LeGrice, Director of Community Relations, CFUN and CHQM-FM; Lori
Paul, Vancouver jazz artist and music educator; John Beaudin, host of "Nite
Lite" on CHQM-FM; and Allan Anderson, President of the British Columbia Music
5027 At the third table, starting on your right, are Barry O'Donnell, General
Sales Manager of CFUN and CHQM-FM; Mike Dorn of Audience Research International;
and Mark Lewis, CHUM's senior legal counsel.
5028 We will now begin our presentation.
5029 CHUM Limited began as a radio company over 45 years ago. For more than
half of that time CHUM has been part of the Vancouver community.
5030 In 1972 CHUM purchased a stand-alone AM station, CFUN. We were able to
partner CFUN with an FM station in 1990 when we acquired CHQM-FM.
5031 This is the second time that CHUM has applied for a smooth jazz format
in Vancouver. We are as convinced today as we were a decade ago that there is a
format hole that is not being filled: smooth jazz.
5032 Why is CHUM uniquely qualified to provide a smooth jazz radio service?
CHUM is the only national commercial broadcaster with continuing involvement in
support of Canadian jazz. Over the past five years CHUM's specialty channel,
Bravo!, has telecast thousands of hours of jazz performances and has covered the
Canadian jazz scene. Smooth Jazz 94.5, working in association with Bravo!, will
provide additional opportunities for national exposure for the dozens of local
5033 In addition, we have developed a unique initiative that will benefit the
Canadian broadcasting system. CHUM Group Radio's new Canadian talent initiative
for developing young, emerging musical artists is m.PLAY. m.PLAY stands for
music, performance, learning, advocacy, and youth.
5034 Last month we unveiled m.PLAY in Calgary. The commitments we make here
today for Vancouver are without precedent.
5035 Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, I am both pleased and excited to
present to you now CHUM's plans for a new radio service for Vancouver.
5037 MR. DAVIES: CHUM commissioned an independent research study to examine
the Vancouver radio market to determine how various formats would perform. We
were delighted when Audience Research International's study confirmed what we
already knew, that smooth jazz presented a unique opportunity.
5038 Though considered to be a specialty format, smooth jazz is a highly
successful west coast format, with stations from Anchorage to Seattle to San
Diego achieving strong rating positions in the 25 to 54 age group.
5039 One of the first of these, KTWV, the Wave in Los Angeles, ranks in the
top ten in annual revenue of all of the radio stations in the United States.
5040 Vancouver is the only major west coast market that does not have a
smooth jazz radio station. In fact, the only station that offers anything close
to this kind of programming is our own CHQM-FM, with our long-running "Nite
Lite" show hosted by John Beaudin.
5041 Smooth jazz might best be described as an evolutionary form of jazz. It
is an atmospheric blend of contemporary jazz and new adult contemporary vocals.
Unlike other radio formats, it is unique in sound, subtle in presentation, and
refined in its mood.
5042 And while relaxing, it is also stimulating.
5043 The smooth jazz format attracts an outstanding audience, extremely
upscale and lifestyle driven.
5044 We hope to expand our longstanding support of Canadian jazz artists with
a new Vancouver smooth jazz radio station, and Paul will now share with you his
vision for Smooth Jazz 94.5.
5045 MR. SKI: Smooth Jazz 94.5 will be truly unique in the Vancouver radio
5046 Smooth Jazz 94.5 is committed to airing 35 per cent Canadian content and
will play a minimum of 66 per cent instrumental music.
5047 While instrumental-based, these selections will possess a rhythmic pulse
and compelling artistry which will allow it to become foreground radio
5048 When Smooth Jazz 94.5 is not playing instrumental artists like David
Sanborn and Brian Hughes, artists such as Diana Krall and Beverley Staunton will
add jazz-influenced vocals to our sound. Vocals add spice to the smooth jazz mix
and establish a comfort zone for new listeners to the format.
5049 Smooth Jazz 94.5 will commission independent artists, writers and
producers to illuminate the Vancouver jazz scene in their own unique style
through a feature called "Sound Bites". Throughout the day these "Sound Bites"
provide a new and different way of keeping the smooth jazz audience up to date
on local concerns, artists, venues, and album releases, interpreted and
presented by people with a passion for the music.
5050 We will bring the artist to the listener and the listener to the artist.
"Friday Nights On The Town" will feature local jazz artists, traditional to
contemporary, performing live from Vancouver clubs.
5051 The people who know the music best are those who live and perform it
daily. That is why we have engaged jazz artist and music educator Lori Paul to
host the Smooth Jazz 94.5 morning show.
5052 Other special features on Smooth Jazz 94.5 include: Sunday morning "Jazz
Brunch" and Ramsey Lewis' "Legends of Jazz", programming for straight-ahead jazz
aficionados; "City Lights", our nightly program featuring a softer acoustic
jazz; "Fresh Trax", our weekly CD release party for Vancouver and Canadian jazz
5053 News and community awareness will have their own separate and distinct
identities on Smooth Jazz 94.5. The specific information needs of the unique
audience that the format delivers will be served by our commitment to providing
detailed news coverage of major local, national and international events.
5054 So too will our community service initiatives reflect the concerns of
5055 The "Smooth Shoreline" project, a spring and fall clean-up campaign for
local beaches -- followed by a smooth jazz concert.
5056 The Smooth Jazz 94.5 interactive Web site -- streaming samples of
new local and Canadian smooth jazz artists.
5057 The annual Smooth Jazz 94.5 CD sampler -- featuring the best new
material from local and national Canadian artists.
5058 Smooth Jazz 94.5 will boost the production and promotion of Canadian
jazz recordings by contributing $378,000 to FACTOR.
5059 Finally, there is the CHUM-originated Free Ad plan for the promotion of
smooth jazz artists, most of whom are virtually unknown in Canada.
5060 But our commitment goes far, far deeper in terms of developing the next
generation of Canadian performers. Here is Duff Roman to tell us about it.
5061 MR. ROMAN: After consultation with music educators and the musical
artist community of Vancouver, we developed m.PLAY Vancouver to specifically
address the principal structural elements that underpin Canadian musical talent
5062 m. is for the music, particularly instrumental music, the heart and soul
of smooth jazz.
5063 P is for performance, the ultimate expression of the musician's art.
5064 L is for learning, the education of the artist and the provision of the
tools, the instruments; combining to make the dream real.
5065 A is for advocacy, building the case for music training and the growth
of the individual who participates.
5066 Y is for youth, where the journey begins for each generation to ensure
that Canadian musical expression will always enjoy pride of place at home and
5067 Smooth Jazz 94.5 will seek every opportunity to support and expand the
talent pool from which we will draw, with weekly "Friday Nights On The Town",
live music concerts, CD distribution through the stand-alone m.PLAY Web site,
the Canadian Album Compilation project, and "Sound Bites" from the jazz scene,
representing an expenditure of $1,295,000.
5068 Performance will be the most visible of these commitments. Young artists
will participate in mentoring workshops in small venues, showcases and recording
studios with skilled professionals.
5069 As these young artists progress they will be invited to participate in
the ongoing evaluation performances, which will culminate in a regional talent
showcase. Budgeted costs will total $1,715,000.
5070 Learning, however, is at the heart of m.PLAY, and we earmarked the
largest budget allocation to the education of young musicians through the
purchase or lease of instruments, school curriculum, and mentoring programs and
5071 We will also ensure that the full potential of m.PLAY is realized by
convening and underwriting a founding symposium of music educators and
professionals to shape our policies, develop an administrative framework and set
the agenda for success. Our commitment to learning is $2,751,000.
5072 CHUM will underwrite the cost of advocacy for m.PLAY's objective of
stimulating interest in music as an art form, informing students of programs
available through m.PLAY, and educating parents and influencing decision-makers
as to the long-term benefits of music training. We have committed
5073 Madam Chair, our promise to spend $7 million over seven years is a
substantial commitment to Canadian talent development. To ensure that those
funds earmarked for academic objectives find their way into the school system to
their designated recipients, we have confirmed through our community and
scholastic consultations that there are no bureaucratic barriers to legitimate
contributions from corporate and other outside sources.
5074 Parent committees and volunteer groups for these purposes are the norm,
not the exception, in Vancouver.
5075 In short, m.PLAY will deliver funding and other assistance to recipients
with no impediments whatsoever.
5076 We now direct your attention to a brief video presentation that we
believe captures the essence of m.PLAY-Vancouver.
VIDEO PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION VIDÉO
5077 MR. WATERS: Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, when we prepared
this application for a new FM radio service in Vancouver we addressed the
Commission's major criteria for awarding a new radio licence.
5078 What is in it for the listener, the community, and the system?
5079 First, the listener: Our proposed smooth jazz format satisfies an
unfilled need. Our 66 per cent instrumental level guarantees diversity. Smooth
Jazz 94.5 will be a true smooth jazz radio station.
5080 Second, the community: We have created on-air features that will allow
our new station to continue the CHUM tradition of bringing meaningful service to
the communities we serve across Canada. We will provide high quality spoken word
programming, utilizing local jazz musicians, and our daily morning show will
feature jazz artist Lori Paul, on the air, playing and talking about the
5081 And finally, what does the CHUM application bring to the system?
5082 CHUM will contribute $378,000 to FACTOR over the seven-year licence
period; double the required amount.
5083 m.PLAY: A multi-level program for the nurturing and development of the
young Canadian musical artist.
5084 Music education is a fundamental element of learning. Language skills,
math concepts, problem solving and social skills come more easily to the
musically trained child.
5085 These are proven facts. We know there are budget cutbacks in many school
boards, and the arts and music programs are usually hit first. Our $7 million
commitment to m.PLAY can help replenish these programs. It will be done with
funds directly funnelled to the recipients, just like CHUM's other successful
5086 As you have heard from music educators and the artists, this is where to
start building a strong base for the development of the Canadian music
5087 If we are successful in Vancouver, we will develop similar initiatives
in all CHUM markets across Canada.
5088 Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, we respectfully ask for your
approval of this application and we will be pleased to answer any questions you
5089 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Waters.
5090 Commissioner Cram will be questioning you.
5091 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
5092 Welcome, gentlemen.
5093 Next door they are trying to ignite the passion, and here we are trying
to be rather reasoned and carry on a rational debate, so I apologize.
5094 Yesterday Telus was there, so we could do something about it, but today
I guess we can't.
--- Laughter / Rires
5095 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I want to start by saying that when I read your file
I must have misapprehended what was actually almost the format.
5096 Your letter of August 21, 2000, at paragraph 1, talked about -- you
were going for the specialty format and you said, I believe, that there would be
50 per cent subcategory 34, and then subsequently that was changed to 66 per
5097 If I understand it, subcategory 34 includes both instrumental and vocal,
and now I read on page 9 of your presentation today that you are saying 66 per
5098 MR. WATERS: Yes.
5099 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Can I just clarify that? All of your subcategory 34
will be instrumental?
5100 MR. WATERS: For the most part, yes.
5101 Commissioner Cram, if it is all right, I would like to hand this off to
Paul Ski. Paul has spent quite a bit of time, prior to filing, listening --
going to different markets across the United States and listening to this
format, so that we could get a good feel for what it sounded like.
5102 I think, Paul, if you share your thoughts, that would be useful.
5103 MR. SKI: Commissioner Cram, I have been sort of a fan and a student of
the smooth jazz format, actually, for ten years, since we first began applying
for this particular format.
5104 The format itself has been most successful along the Pacific coast,
where audience shares are a little higher than they are in the midwestern United
States and on the eastern coast. The majority of these radio stations play
two-thirds instrumental and one-third vocal.
5105 That is really the genesis of the format. If two-thirds of the format is
not instrumental, then it is really not a true smooth jazz station. And I think
that I can say without question that every one of the successful radio stations
in the States uses that particular formatic approach.
5106 So when we looked at it we said: What portion of our format will be
instrumental? It will be 66 per cent.
5107 I think your question was: Will all of our category 34 music be in that
66 per cent and be all instrumental? No.
5108 The 66 per cent -- category 34 is --
5109 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Is separate from --
5110 MR. SKI: Is separate from, right --
5111 COMMISSIONER CRAM: -- the 66 per cent instrumental level.
5112 MR. SKI: That's correct, and it is a minimum.
5113 The vocals that we play, some of them will also be category 34.
5114 I think when we look at the format, the vocals that are played in this
particular format are normally jazz influenced also, so they would also fall
into category 34.
5115 There will be some AC-type selections, too. Maybe a good example of that
would be Ian Tyson, for instance, who has a song on his new album "Lost Herd".
Most of it is country influenced, but I think there are two selections on that
CD that are jazz influenced, and we would be playing those.
5116 COMMISSIONER CRAM: If I can summarize, 66 per cent of your music will be
5117 MR. SKI: That's correct.
5118 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But, in addition, 66 per cent of all music that you
play will be instrumental.
5119 MR. SKI: That's correct.
5120 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I have that straight?
5121 If I can turn to page 12 of the file -- it is page 3 of Schedule
21, dated May 19, 2000.
5122 You refer to your programming, that you will be having "City Lights",
"Listener's Choice", "Sound Bites", the "Dave Koz Radio Show", "Jazz Brunch",
"Fresh Trax", and "Legends of Jazz". Of those which are going to be, I guess, on
this station, how much of that is syndicated?
5123 MR. SKI: Commissioner Cram, two of those programs, the "Dave Koz Radio
Show" and "Legends of Jazz", the Ramsey Lewis program, are the only syndicated
5124 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So how many hours or minutes is that out of the
5125 MR. SKI: That is approximately four hours.
5126 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Out of a total of...?
5127 MR. SKI: Of the full week. It would be 126 hours, I guess.
5128 COMMISSIONER CRAM: These ones that you are talking about, they are
actually highlighting the smooth jazz format.
5129 MR. SKI: You are talking about "City Lights", "Listener's Choice",
"Sound Bites", "94 Live", "Fresh Trax", et cetera?
5130 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.
5131 MR. SKI: Those are all smooth jazz programs, but those are all local
programs, locally produced by the radio station.
5132 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. So other than "Legends of Jazz" and Dave Koz,
they are all locally produced?
5133 MR. SKI: That's correct.
5134 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Therefore, they would be all Canadian produced.
5135 How many of those are from CHQM?
5136 MR. SKI: From CHQM?
5137 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.
5138 MR. SKI: None of those are from CHQM.
5139 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I thought you were talking about moving one over in
5140 MR. WATERS: That is just a show that has been running on CHQM for the
past several years, hosted by John Beaudin, who is behind me.
5141 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you are going to move one over, is that it?
5142 MR. WATERS: He has done a show called "Nite Lite". I think he will move
over, and the music content will move over. I guess that is the best way to put
5143 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you will sort of be using a production from
another radio station in this --
5144 MR. WATERS: No.
5145 MR. SKI: No. This is a truly distinct radio station. It is quite
different from CHQM, just from the instrumental quotient alone.
5146 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I'm sorry, I should tell you the agenda for
5147 I was going to do programming, then go into CTD, then go into Cancon,
then an economic analysis -- as I call them, "short snappers",
miscellaneous -- and then the technical stuff.
5148 Moving on to CTD, I don't know if you have listened to us on the
Internet -- and I am sure it would be scintillating listening -- but
we were talking about the concept of CTD versus what, as a good radio
broadcaster, you would do to promote the genre in the normal course of business,
without any CTD, and what you would do to build audience in the normal course of
business if CTD were not to exist, and also what you would do as a good
corporate citizen, in the normal course of events, without the existence of
5149 In other words, would you do it anyway, even if it weren't CTD?
5150 Would you do it for good business reasons?
5151 I know that when I was in private business I spent a lot of money on ad
and promo, simply because it built my reputation in the industry I was in.
5152 I want to have a discussion around each one of your proposals and that
issue, and we have gotten a long way from the Calgary hearing where we were
talking about the top and the bottom of the pyramid.
5153 Also, the second issue that troubles me somewhat is the concept that
even in direct CTD there is some collateral benefit that you receive from it. I
will give you an example.
5154 Yesterday we heard from the people from Future, and they were talking
about having conducted a survey of the artists, and the artists said: We don't
know one single initiative that is a direct CTD that has benefited us.
5155 In part, I think that is because all of the CTD benefits look like they
come from the radio broadcasters. They don't look like we required it as a
condition of your getting a licence.
5156 So if I look at page 32 of the file, which is Schedule 4, page 5 of 6,
and if I look at any one of these -- "Nights On The Town", Web site, album
compilation, "Sound Bites" -- any of the m.PLAY -- in no
5157 Let me ask you. In any place do you say: We are doing this because we
promised the CRTC we would do it so we would get a licence? Or do you say that
this is sponsored by CHUM?
5158 Easy to answer, isn't it?
5159 MR. WATERS: That was a long question.
5160 COMMISSIONER CRAM: There must be a collateral benefit of the CTD to you,
in terms of goodwill, wouldn't you think?
5161 MR. WATERS: I suppose that I would be lying if I said that there isn't
any collateral benefit. But I think that, historically, CHUM has always felt
that part of our responsibility -- a major part of our
responsibility -- is to give something back to the communities in which we
operate, whether it is required by the CRTC or not.
5162 There are numerous programs that I could name to you that we co-ordinate
and do on an annual basis in all of the markets.
5163 I have heard that other broadcasters do the same.
5164 I think that is really important. I think it is a critical part of the
responsibility that we have, when you entrust us with these radio licences.
5165 Commissioner Cram, yes, I think that in some way there is always going
to be some benefit coming back, but, regardless, I think it is very important
that all of us, as broadcasters, do those things.
5166 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So really, at the end of the day, CTD has taken a bad
rap because it has never been shown as being CTD. It has been shown as an
initiative from the broadcaster and not as something that we require to develop
5167 MR. WATERS: That is a really good -- I have never quite thought of
it that way.
5168 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It's invisible, yes.
5169 MR. WATERS: To hear you put it that way, that is new to me, but I
suppose that --
5170 So much of what we do -- I think that so much of what you do, and I
think, quite a bit of the time, so much of what the broadcaster does --
they don't know who is doing it. They don't really know.
5171 I think the beneficiaries, a lot of the time, don't know where it is
coming from. That is unfortunate, but I think that is the way it works.
5172 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I will now go to the specifics and leave philosophy
5173 "Nights On The Town": $30,000 a year -- $8,000 for a broadcast
line, $4,000 for production staff, $18,000 for equipment, and there will be 26
"Nights On The Town" a year. These will be live concerts?
5174 MR. ROMAN: They will ultimately result in live concerts.
5175 "Friday Nights On The Town" is a weekly feature, which will end up in 26
recorded-to-live, or, in some cases, actual live concerts on the air, yes.
5176 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But they will originate as live concerts?
5177 MR. ROMAN: In local venues, that's right.
5178 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All Canadian artists?
5179 MR. ROMAN: All Canadian.
5180 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What I don't see are any artists' fees.
5181 MR. ROMAN: That is a good point.
5182 When we put together the structure, as you can see, above the sort of
darkened line, $185,000 was committed to initiatives that were specific to
smooth jazz. We thought we would make a separation there.
5183 Most of m.PLAY, the vast majority of it, is committed to music at the
roots level, the youth level. But we thought, for clarity, that we would show
you those items that are initiatives that work, that dovetail with the smooth
5184 When we put together these initiatives we put in the hard costs, and we
talked with artists, managers and record labels with regard to how the artists
would be compensated. There is just a huge variation -- everything from
scale payments to situations where the label itself would absorb the cost of the
artist because they feel that working with the station or being exposed on
something like "Friday Nights On The Town" is important.
5185 What we concluded, and it is not shown here, is that we would pay all
relevant musicians' costs on top of the m.PLAY expenses, as charted on this
page. We would pay those costs.
5186 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And consider it as a cost of business.
5187 MR. ROMAN: That's correct.
5188 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. So the entirety of the list on -- I
believe it was page 32 of the record --
5189 MR. ROMAN: Yes.
5190 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All of the artist fees will be paid directly by
5191 MR. ROMAN: That's right.
5192 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Then there is $18,000 for equipment. Is this
5193 MR. ROMAN: Yes. It could be things such as portable mixing boards,
stereo ISDNs, microphones, miscellaneous repairs. It is really the logistics of
getting those concerts done to the quality level that the musicians themselves
5194 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So would it be the rental of equipment, or would you
be purchasing --
5195 MR. ROMAN: Rental. In other words, we are not getting this equipment and
putting it in as part of our broadcast gear.
5196 No, we go out and rent from third parties.
5197 COMMISSIONER CRAM: On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being what you would do to
build audience anyway, 10 being solely for the purpose of creating Canadian
talent, where would this stand?
5198 Wouldn't you do this in the normal course of business anyway?
5199 MR. ROMAN: My answer would be a lot closer to 10 than 1, and I will tell
you why, in my opinion.
5200 It is that all of these are not required to run a good, smooth jazz
5201 If we were talking generically about being good, professional
broadcasters, we wouldn't have to do live concerts. We could do live
5202 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Wouldn't you want to be in the community?
5203 MR. ROMAN: There are many ways of being in the community. What we are
saying is that we are specifically indicating that we will pay the costs of
doing these live concerts, because we think it is a benefit to the music
5204 Getting their CDs played on a smooth jazz station and getting the free
ad plan and associated support are what the artists really need.
5205 When you are able to add something such as a live concert, I think there
is really, essentially, a good comfort zone and a vibration between the artists.
But, essentially, we were very careful to say that we could run a smooth jazz
station without any of these so-called above-the-line costs. These are in
addition to just being good broadcasters.
5206 MR. WATERS: Commissioner Cram, I would like to ask Lori if she would
like to add something as an artist in Vancouver.
5207 MS PAUL: Madam Chair, I would like to say that although providing live
concerts locally does seem to be a given for local radio stations, it very
rarely happens. So I would like to comment on that, if I may.
5208 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You mean in any genre.
5209 MS PAUL: Yes, that's true.
5210 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Moving on to the Web site, essentially you are going
to distribute local CDs. That is the concept?
5211 MR. ROMAN: Canadian CDs, local, primarily from the Vancouver area, but
5212 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. And $50,000 for design and maintenance a year
for the site; $10,000 for handling and shipment; $6,000 for financial
5213 How are you going to promote the site?
5214 MR. ROMAN: There will be cross-promotion on our radio station, but also
that site will be self-promoting on the Web site, of course. It will be
mentioned in our advocacy component, which is a full bore printed material and
media campaign to let people know about m.PLAY.
5215 If necessary, we will take ads. We will do whatever is required to bring
it to the attention of the music community. Certainly, with our connection to
FACTOR, that information will be circulated to all musicians, particularly to
Vancouver area musicians, through the Regional Advisory Board for Vancouver of
5216 We essentially will get the word out. I am sure that anyone who is
interested in jazz music and anyone who makes jazz music will be aware of this
5217 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Would you promote it on Bravo!?
5218 MR. ROMAN: We have talked about our interaction with Bravo!, and it
seems to me that the Canadian jazz community is very, very tightly knit and
feels that we are all sort of in it together. The response we have received from
Bravo! about m.PLAY, generally, and the jazz component in Vancouver, smooth jazz
in particular, has been outstanding. There is real interest.
5219 I don't want to be revealing anything here, but when Jim Waters says
that we are considering rolling this out across the country, there is likely
going to be a television component, in a sense, with Bravo!.
5220 MR. WATERS: Thanks, Duff! No pressure.
5221 Commissioner Cram, I think we actually have a bit of a problem on
Bravo!, as far as actually promoting the radio station or the Web site.
5222 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The site, I thought, would be separate. It's
separate, isn't it, from yours? It is essentially like an independent --
it's like whatever you call it -- the indie pool, isn't it?
5223 MR. WATERS: I was thinking more in terms of the actual radio station
itself, but, yes, I suppose we could promote the Web site.
5224 COMMISSIONER CRAM: When we are talking about this Web site, it is
essentially going to be like indie pool.
5225 MR. WATERS: Yes.
5226 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But free, at least for seven years, for the
5227 MR. WATERS: Yes.
5228 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Hopefully. I haven't asked that question yet.
5229 The next question is: At no charge to musicians?
5230 MR. WATERS: Yes.
5231 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What happens after the seven years?
5232 MR. WATERS: It continues.
5233 COMMISSIONER CRAM: No charge to the musicians?
5234 MR. WATERS: Yes.
5235 MR. SKI: Commissioner Cram, excuse me. I think that we see this
particular Web site as a meeting place, also, in some of our discussions with
jazz musicians. It will be a focal point for them. There will be chat rooms, et
cetera, where they will be able to discuss their craft, et cetera.
5236 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What are your projections on the number of CDs that
you will be handling through the site?
5237 MR. ROMAN: Boy, that is a good question.
5238 We are really trying to look at how much work it would take. For
instance, when we were setting out our handling and shipping costs, we saw that
there would be about 20 hours of work with regard to handling and shipping. We
haven't done the math in terms of how many pieces or CDs that handling and
shipping would entail.
5239 It is really hard to tell. We are essentially not in the CD retail
business; we are in the exposure of Canadian content business. So that is maybe
some math we could do, but it didn't seem necessary to the process. The idea was
getting the Web site up, making it available to Canadian artists, in terms of
showing their wares, and then doing the fulfilment, doing the handling, and
getting that done.
5240 So I can't give you a finite answer to that.
5241 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you didn't work out the $10,000 handling and
shipping cost based on a per CD basis.
5242 MR. ROMAN: No. We thought that it would take about 20 hours of work a
week. That is the way we looked at it.
5243 MR. WATERS: Commissioner Cram, I'm sorry to interrupt, but the other
night when we were talking about the Web site, specifically, we were having a
conversation with Lori, who has her own Web site, and she had some interesting
comments about this project. If I might ask Lori just to --
5244 MS PAUL: I was very hopeful when I released my CD in 1998 that the Web
site would be the way for me to sell units, because distribution was almost
impossible to come by.
5245 I am very excited about this station's willingness to offer
distribution, but I am especially excited about the opportunity to have a link
set up, perhaps to my Web site, or that capability, because what I found was
that it is well and good to have a Web site available, but if no one has heard
your name and no one knows how to get in touch with you, or realizes what format
it is that you fall under, it is very difficult to get the exposure you
5246 I believe that an association with a smooth jazz radio station would
have made all of the difference in the world in terms of the hits I would have
received on my personal Web site.
5247 MR. ROMAN: Commissioner Cram, in our discussion we ballparked about 15
transactions a day.
5248 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. So I take it that you are -- I don't want
to use that word --
5249 You are expecting, but without any research, that there will be a
growing demand for that.
5250 MR. ROMAN: Yes, and I think Lori just confirmed that.
5251 We are working closely with the artistic community. Yes, we expect it to
grow like topsy.
5252 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Would you be selling the CD compilation through this
5253 MR. ROMAN: Oh, yes. It would be available in stores. It would be
available on the Web site. Anyone that we could form an alliance with.
5254 COMMISSIONER CRAM: If at the end of the year you found that you didn't
need $50,000 in years 2, 4 and 7 for maintenance of the Web site, what happens
to the money?
5255 MR. ROMAN: With virtually any of our funding that doesn't get disbursed
for a particular component, most of it, invariably, will go back to the learning
component of m.PLAY, for, again, youth, students, music instrument
purchase -- anything that essentially qualifies as a CTD initiative under
the big umbrella.
5256 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. Call me paranoic, but at the end of seven years
you may have a fairly substantial business selling CDs and handling CDs and
becoming a competitor to indie pool.
5257 I mean, you want to be successful, and at the end of the day you may, in
fact, be competing with other sort of sellers on the web, and have some value in
5258 MR. WATERS: You are way ahead of us. We weren't really thinking that
way. I think that what --
5259 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It's my paranoia. It is the incipient paranoia.
5260 MR. WATERS: I think that when we develop a program such as this, we are
thinking more in terms of helping the artists, as Lori described, to get more
exposure, getting their music exposed, and making it easier for the listeners at
large to have access to that music.
5261 So we weren't really thinking of this being a profit centre.
5262 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you would sort of make it into a co-operative and
give up your ownership of it?
5263 MR. WATERS: I think we would probably want to --
5264 No, we probably wouldn't want to do that.
5265 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The point is, though, if it is successful, it will be
a business that has value. And when we talk about sort of the collateral
benefits that come from it --
5266 MR. WATERS: I think it would be safe to say that, in the way that CHUM
conducts itself in situations like this, we would put that money back into the
operation, into our Canadian talent initiatives, as Duff said. I think that is
where the money should go.
5267 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yesterday -- and it's a learning
experience -- we also heard that artists were saying that a Web site, while
unless there is airtime on, at least, what they call a medium rotation.
5268 So if I look at this, in and of itself, alone, and based on that kind of
assessment, I say: What is its value to CTD without a concomitant commitment
to -- and I am not saying air it once; I am saying a medium rotation
5269 Ms Paul, would you like to comment on that?
5270 Isn't the value more in airtime and in rotation?
5271 MS PAUL: Certainly, rotation is crucial. There is no question about
5272 I think that 35 per cent Cancon is the figure I am pretty happy
5273 I would have to say that, in terms of rotation, so much of that has to
do with what listeners respond to, as well. While you initially would like to
get your name out there, and obviously through a radio station, through
listeners, that is crucial, essentially you rely on your music to, hopefully,
reach the audience you are looking for and catch on.
--- Background noise / Bruit de fond
5274 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
5275 I'm sorry. I am going to get an ear plug, and it is not to hear you, it
is just to --
5276 THE CHAIRPERSON: I just want to say that we are doing what we can to
deal with what is going on next door. Unfortunately, there is not much we can
do. We are going to try to, at least, time our breaks so that --
5277 I apologize. I'm sorry.
5278 Now that I have interrupted you once --
5279 The one thing we do have is that the translation devices can be used, if
any of you are too distracted, to minimize the noise.
5280 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Turn it to English, if you speak English.
5281 MR. ROMAN: Commissioner Cram, could I add to where Lori was going with
5282 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.
5283 MR. ROMAN: I think that every artist wants to come in through the system
with regard to the quality of the musical work, in terms of the amount of
airplay and rotation it gets.
5284 I think that, obviously, we are going to be very open minded in that
5285 But I just want to make one thing clear, and that is, there is $126,000
in indirect commitment to the CHUM Free Ad Plan, which will be directly linked
to telling people where these CDs can be available, either at retail or at the
5286 MS PAUL: Also, Madam Chair, if I may add, when I released my CD in 1998
there was no local radio station that felt the format of my CD suited their
radio station. I believe this is one of the reasons why it was so -- it was
such a difficult sell for me.
5287 The quality of production I was very pleased with. It certainly was very
positively responded to, but I simply didn't have a radio station that felt I
fit in their format.
5288 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So we are back to airtime. I have made my point. Do
you want to make any comments? I don't want to close you down.
5289 Medium rotation airtime --
5290 MR. SKI: I'm not sure. What exactly was the question you were getting
at, Commissioner Cram?
5291 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What do you think the value of a Web site is without
the concomitant commitment for what was called medium rotation airtime?
5292 MR. DAVIES: There is no doubt -- and I agree with Mr.
Roman and Lori -- that airtime is still the kingpin. You need to have
5293 I think the component of the Web site clearly is small now, but it can
only get bigger and bigger. And do the two work together? Absolutely.
5294 People with Web sites, if they don't have people to drive traffic into
them, they aren't going to succeed. We have a great opportunity with this radio
station to drive traffic into that Web site.
5295 It is small now, but I do see them linked. But clearly the airplay is
the key. But they are going to work together, and as this Web site thing grows
and grows, it is going to become even more effective.
5296 But airplay -- I don't think anyone is going to disagree with the
value of airplay. Absolutely.
5297 MR. ROMAN: Commissioner Cram, this might help a bit too, and that is,
because of the Web sites it is the first time that an independent artist, or an
artist who is having difficulty getting distribution or dealing with a record
label, actually has a meaningful way of reaching the public at retail.
5298 What has happened with the Internet and Web sites is clearly earth
shattering, in the sense that getting into a front rack position, or getting
into that retailer --
5299 You know all about that stuff. That's difficult.
5300 So often the airplay was, if I might say, sort of empty airplay. A lot
of exposure and, maybe, if you were lucky, you got some airplay royalties
through SOCAN. But down where the rubber meets the road at retail, if that
retailer isn't going to rack your product, it is sort of --
5301 It's great. It's very nice for the ego -- and I am sure Lori would
agree with that -- to get all of that airplay, but if her manager, producer
or record company can't get into that retailer and have it shelved or stocked
meaningfully, then there is nowhere to turn.
5302 What has happened with the Web sites, and why even Lori and other
independent artists have their own Web sites, is to cut through to that ultimate
consumer: If you like my CD, here is a way to get it.
5303 Ultimately you will be downloading it digitally, but I am sure, in the
meantime, it is going to be through fulfilment, courier delivery, parcel
5304 That CD is ultimately going to get to those people who want to listen
and enjoy the CD, even if they can't find it on a retail shelf.
5305 COMMISSIONER CRAM: If I could move on to the compilation CD. Can you
tell me, in your experience, what is the long-term value of a compilation to the
5306 MR. ROMAN: The long-term value.
5307 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You have done compilations for however many years you
have been in business. I see it as a compilation created by CHUM, with 12
nameless people on it.
5308 Where did that get the artists in the end?
5309 Please don't take me in any derogatory sense, but the point is, where
did it get any individual artist?
5310 MR. WATERS: Commissioner Cram, everybody probably has something to say
about this, but I think one of the best examples I can think of currently for
CHUM is the CD that CHOM does in Montreal every year, where they have -- it
is kind of, I suppose, a talent contest of sorts. It gives those artists an
opportunity to first get recorded properly, in a good studio situation, and get
on to CDs. And it is out there. It is distributed. Who knows who in the industry
may pick up that CD and say: Oh, there is something here. These ten artists have
done some new music. Let's listen to it. Maybe we can find a diamond in the
5311 I think there is always that possibility. I think it is, at least, a
first step to getting recorded and getting exposed to those out there who, in
this case, would be interested in jazz music.
5312 I think that anything like that that can give a boot to the system is a
5313 MR. DAVIES: It is not going to make them rich and famous off the bat,
but I think, as Jim was saying, it is probably the first tangible thing that
these young musicians have to get on their way and to say: I am a musician. I
have something here. Even though I am sharing this CD with 11 other artists,
here it is.
5314 They do get airplay. Our Program Director in Montreal sends his CDs to
all of our CHUM stations across Canada, and while we may not be able to play it
at Paul's station here in Vancouver because its format is not compatible, a lot
of our stations do play them, and they do get exposure.
5315 I am trying to think --
5316 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Who did you kickstart?
5317 MR. DAVIES: I am trying to think of examples. Frankly, it wasn't one of
our CDs, but I can give you two stories.
5318 One, I think, there was a band called Wide Mouth Mason, who
5319 COMMISSIONER CRAM: From Saskatchewan.
5320 MR. DAVIES: There you go. It may have been on one of the other radio
station's early CDs.
5321 Those bands, they go to record companies. It gives them something to go
into an A and R director at a record company and say: Look, this is what I have.
That does have impact.
5322 We can go all the way back to what CHUM-FM started -- Duff, you
will have to help me, because this was maybe 20 years ago -- with a band
called The Kings in Toronto, where we kind of originated this concept, giving
them an opportunity to record a CD with Bob Ezrin.
5323 The Kings, with that song, went on to get a record deal and became
5324 So those things do have some value -- some tangible value. It is
not the be all and the end all, but it is a beginning for these artists.
5325 MR. ROMAN: I think you add in the fact that it is the best new material
from, primarily, local jazz artists. We shouldn't make it more than it is, but
what it is is very important, and that is, a stepping stone, first recording,
first exposure, and the weight of the smooth jazz station in support of those
5326 For an unrecorded artist, or someone who is not plugged into the
mainstream or has not evolved to that level of having a record label --
most of these will not have record labels -- this is a major step in their
exposure. It is a calling card for their self-promotion.
5327 COMMISSIONER CRAM: There is no money, the staff briefing tells me, for
recording these. Or am I wrong?
5328 MR. ROMAN: No. In this case the material is supplied to us. In the case
of the compilation, it is supplied to us. They come from independent recording
sessions. Virtually every artist has a technical facility. And then we will take
it and master it. We will improve it and tweak it. We have printing in there,
but, if you see it, there is a component for mastering. That really is getting
it into shape for wider use or for airplay use.
5329 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So there is no contest to sort of build up momentum.
What happens? The artists submit their CDs, and you get 700, and you need to
pick out 12. How is that handled?
5330 MR. LeGRICE: Commissioner Cram, under the Music Mentoring Program we
have budgeted for juries to sit every three months to assess people who will go
into the mentoring program. Those juries could very well help us to narrow down
the field for the compilation album.
5331 Some of the people who come out of the mentoring program could indeed
end up on the compilation CD, because the mentoring program is designed to give
them a master tape that they can shop to record companies.
5332 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You haven't gone to the industry to ask them if they
would provide you with some way to pick them, such as a jazz society or
5333 MR. WATERS: We could certainly do that here.
5334 I think that one of the other areas that we could explore here is
"Friday Nights On The Town", when we are recording live performances. We could
certainly take performances off there and have those end up on the compilation
5335 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
5336 MR. WATERS: Commissioner Cram, if I might, back at the beginning of the
discussion you talked about: Would you do some of these things if you didn't
have to do Canadian talent development initiatives. I think, in a situation like
this, this is something that we should do.
5337 There are a lot of broadcasters -- and I don't need to tell
you -- who do this sort of thing. I think it is particularly in a format
that really is just starting to get a life in Canada.
5338 You have licensed a station in Ontario, and hopefully there will be a
couple more in the west. I think that anything we can do to give those young
jazz Canadian artists some exposure is worthwhile. It is at least an effort to
help them move ahead. I think it is very important.
5339 It may seem small. You know, we wish we could say that it is a
ten-out-of-ten home run, but I think it is something important that we are at
least attempting to help these artists, one way or another. I think that is very
5340 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
5341 "Sound Bites": Sixty seconds, third party interviewers, essentially
sub-contractors. Wouldn't you be doing this, again, in the normal course of
5342 MR. WATERS: I won't fight you for the microphone.
5343 MR. ROMAN: All I was going to say is that features such as "Sound Bites"
do not have to be produced by third parties or done outside the station.
5344 I was just going to start the dialogue by saying that this is another
way of providing funds to Canadian musical talent to make sure there is an
infrastructure for getting the word out about what is going on, what is
happening in town, information about new releases.
5345 You don't have to do that, but we felt that if we could provide these
funds to third parties, that would be a useful way of creating, again, another
part of the important infrastructure of the promotion and development of
5346 It wouldn't have to be done that way. Normally, as the sort of cost of
doing business, we don't really go out to third party producers. We don't really
go out to use other technical facilities.
5347 To me, it qualifies, from that aspect, as a CTD.
5348 COMMISSIONER CRAM: If it were considered by the Commission unacceptable,
would you do it in any event, or something similar?
5349 MR. SKI: I think we would, Commissioner Cram. We might do it internally,
with some of our own program hosts.
5350 It was very interesting, when we first started to make this application
public and talked to various smooth jazz musicians about the programming pieces,
including some of the syndicated shows that you alluded to earlier -- which
we are re-thinking a bit, just because a number of the jazz artists said: I
could do that kind of show. I have been around for quite a long time. I know
about the history of jazz. Maybe I could do it.
5351 So we are re-thinking a few of those things, also just because we do
have the talent here to do those types of programs.
5352 By the same token, when we started talking publicly about the
application, we did have a number of these jazz artists saying: I would like to
come in and do that type of programming on your radio station. I could play my
guitar or my sax, or whatever, and talk about various elements of the jazz
5353 We want these to be really special; what we might call "deep footprint"
types of programming features, so that they have a lasting effect with our
audience. And we think we might best do that with third party people who are
focused on those particular programs.
5354 MR. BEAUDIN: If I may add, some of the local musicians we talked to
actually came up with better ideas than we had. They had great ideas as to how
to promote their music. They had seen the holes, as in not getting out
5355 We have a lot of local musicians who want to host these specific
programs, and they have great ideas.
5356 As Paul mentioned, we are re-thinking some of the syndicated shows
because, quite frankly, their ideas are better to promote local talent.
5357 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It sounds like you need to hire some musicians as
5358 At the end of the day -- and I am coming up to the genre
5359 I'm sorry. Mr. Roman, if we don't accept this as a CTD, you do say that
you would move it into concert performance?
5360 MR. ROMAN: Usually the learning component, but any of the qualified CTD
initiatives under m.PLAY.
5361 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. Thank you.
5362 If we accepted all of this -- and you call it in your memo "genre
specific" -- and I do apologize, gentlemen; I didn't bring my calculator,
and this is my thing. The genre specific CTD adds up to $1.2 million over the
seven years, and non-specific adds up to $5.7 million, which means, in this
case, once again, that about one-sixth of the total CTD is going to the specific
genre that you propose to air on this station that you have applied for.
5363 I think it is in between one-fifth and one-sixth. I apologize for the
lack of ability to be more precise.
5364 I would like an explanation of that. In light of the fact that in your
financial projections you say that this is a new format and it needs time to
grow, presumably you would be investing in it.
5365 Can you give me some rationale for the allocation?
5366 MR. ROMAN: I will start by saying -- and I am just trying to get
the math clear --
5367 COMMISSIONER CRAM: $1.2 million over a total of 6.9 --
5368 MR. ROMAN: And that is the rate of what?
5369 Yes, $185,000 a year would mean $1,295,000.
5370 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I rounded it off to $1.2 million, in your favour.
5371 MR. ROMAN: All right.
5372 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And $5.7 for the non-specific. I think that is all at
page 31 of the file, which is Schedule 4, page 6 of 6. Excluding factor. I will
get to that later.
5373 What I did is, I added $1.2 million plus $5.7 million, for a total of
$6.9 million. I then divided 6.9 by 1.2 and came up with -- it's around
one-fifth or one-sixth.
5374 MR. ROMAN: I guess, just as I started the preamble here -- and
others will be joining us -- it seems to me that in a lot of cases the
other applicants have been very genre specific in terms of where they are going
with their CTD. But, philosophically, this still flows out of m.PLAY. We made a
very important philosophical decision that the bulk of the initiative would go
toward the development of youth in music, and that was the crying need in terms
5375 I have done a little math, and I think it might be very useful to take
us through --
5376 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I like math.
5377 MR. ROMAN: Do you? Great.
5378 We have come to the conclusion, based on our analysis and our
interaction with the music community, that certain levels of the music continuum
are very well served. One of those levels is the FACTOR level. The next level is
the Star Makers level; that there is going to be money applied to the production
5379 At FACTOR, for instance, they have a process by which they evaluate
applications that come in, and one of the bottle-necks is that they will not
compromise their standards with regard to funding projects that the jury system
doesn't think have a chance for either airplay or retail.
5380 Our dialogue with FACTOR is, something has to be done about the quality
of the music that is going into these juries. That, in a sense, is where m.PLAY
5381 So, yes, it is useful to throw money at the immediate sort of genre
specific areas of CTD, but in terms of getting longer benefits, but not really
long-range benefits, we think that m.PLAY is going to actually show up very
5382 We are dealing with youth. We are dealing with people like a Casey
Stiles who, three and a half years prior to his appearance before the Commission
in another venue, had not even picked up a violin. It can happen very quickly.
The kind of directions we are taking with m.PLAY will have long-range benefits
to the system and show fairly impressive short-term gain with regard to getting
records done and artists into careers that they can actually be grounded in and
make a living at.
5383 That was our thinking going into this, and when you look at where we
have gone with, as you said, one-fifth or so of the overall total, we think that
5384 We also think that when you are dealing with a specialty format the
impact is going to be rather more quickly than others might think; that people
who like jazz will be very aware of this format and this genre in the Vancouver
5385 MR. DAVIES: Commissioner Cram -- and, Duff, excuse me if I didn't
hear all of your answer, but I think the FACTOR commitment -- I don't know
if this was included in your math, as well --
5386 COMMISSIONER CRAM: No, it wasn't.
5387 MR. DAVIES: Because that is jazz specific, as well.
5388 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Actually, the file didn't say that. So that is why I
had taken it out of my equation.
5389 MR. DAVIES: But it is.
5390 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I will recalculate it immediately.
5391 Based on that allocation, do you believe that there is sufficient
inventory, or not a paucity of inventory in this genre?
5392 Like, it can take care of itself because -- and I understand. I was
in Calgary. I know I have 10 per cent more IQ because I took music, although
certainly not in some areas.
5393 So I understand the benefits of m.PLAY. But it would seem to me that, in
considering this, you would first consider: How am I going to be able to have
enough to run my station without burning artists? And then you would move from
5394 MR. SKI: I think, since most of these artists haven't had much exposure
in Vancouver and, indeed, in Canada, the chances of burning them are pretty
5395 We put together, I think, a list of over 300 selections -- just
Canadian selections -- that we could also play. I mean, it is quite
5396 Programming is both an art and a science. When we look at playing these
songs, and look at what we would call, not to get too technical, horizontal and
vertical rotations of the songs, and the average listening time period that a
person spends with the radio, et cetera -- I mean, we look at some of these
songs, depending on whether they are older songs or newer songs, maybe being
exposed, again, depending on the format, once every two to three days, once
every month, or once every two or three months, depending on what the song may
5397 But I would like to come back to -- I don't want to call it a
discounting of these other items. I know in talking to Allan Anderson --
and Allan may want to make a comment on that -- that items such as the
workshops, maybe some of the equipment grants that we have, some of the music
mentoring -- we can't say that that is a long distance away from producing
material that we would be playing on the air.
5398 Some of the things that are in under learning and performance would
probably elicit musical recordings that could be played on the air within a
period of, maybe, a few months, if all a person needed was maybe a little more
mentoring; maybe the tuning of their equipment. It might be something as simple
5399 Allan, would you like to comment on that?
5400 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. Commissioner Cram, I am seeing in high schools now
students creating their own CDs. At my own high school, we make our own CDs, and
students are performing. It is one of many throughout the whole province.
5401 I go to conferences, or big festivals like Musicfest Canada, for
example, which is in different cities and various places, and I see thousands of
kids excited -- just really tickled about everything that is going on in a
positive manner, as opposed to some of the negative things we hear about
5402 I won't get into advocacy, because that is not what I was asked, but I
have to say that. That is really critical.
5403 Those kids are doing it now. And I will guarantee that there are many
students coming out of high school right now who are very prepared to have
5404 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I am going to take a little break from the CTD and
give Messrs. Waters and Davies a little break.
5405 What is the Langley Community Music School? It was on the video.
5406 Mr. Anderson, I assume you would know.
5407 MR. LeGRICE: Commissioner Cram, the Langley Community Music School is a
new facility being built in the Fraser Valley. Its director is Mr. Ian Hampton,
who formerly worked for the Academy of St. Martin's in London. He has an
excellent track record, and he will be appearing as an intervenor next week, so
you can talk to him.
5408 MR. DAVIES: Commissioner Cram, if I may, there is one little thing. Can
I go back and talk about the pyramid?
5409 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.
5410 That was the last hearing.
5411 MR. DAVIES: I understand that, but it has so much relevance to this
whole issue of m.PLAY.
5412 I believe it was an appearing intervenor from a competing application in
Calgary who actually spoke about the pyramid.
5413 A key component of m.PLAY is getting the base of that pyramid larger.
That is what m.PLAY specifically deals with.
5414 When it comes to jazz, I happen to think that $1.5 million is pretty
significant going to the jazz community when it has never been done before here
in Vancouver. That is very significant.
5415 Another component of m.PLAY, which deals with music education for
children -- and as we found in our preparations for these hearings, both in
Calgary and here, jazz is a difficult genre to learn for young students.
5416 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And older.
5417 MR. DAVIES: Indeed. But in the school system it is too complicated. It
is very intricate. It comes later in life.
5418 m.PLAY deals with getting these musicians started in music. A lot of
jazz musicians today actually started in classical training and things like
that, and evolved into the jazz genre.
5419 So I think that helps build that pyramid. I think we would be remiss to
forget that. That is a key component of this initiative.
5420 MR. ROMAN: Do you want more pyramid math?
5422 You used the term "bang for the buck", and the difficulty in quantifying
something like m.PLAY versus something that is specific to, say, the jazz
5423 For instance, on something like the instrumental rental program, we are
committing $300,000 a year to instrumental rentals. Here is how we see the base
of the pyramid creating a good solid foundation for the music stars of tomorrow,
jazz genre or not; that is, at roughly $20 per instrument per month rental over
ten months, we would be spending about $200 per student. That one year would see
support for 1,500 students.
5424 Over seven years 10,500 student years would be supported by this one
5425 Then you add in the workshops of $329,000 over seven years, mentoring at
$371,000 in direct cash assistance over seven years, and then the FACTOR
contribution of $378,000 with regard to the production of jazz recordings. We
think the math becomes fairly impressive.
5426 But the real difficulty was in quantifying things such as support for
students, the instruments, the workshops and the mentoring. I think that when
you start to do that kind of cost-benefit analysis, you have to admit that in
fine arts, or musical arts, that is really difficult to do.
5427 But I think that might be helpful to you.
5428 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. You are answering my questions from last
--- Laughter / Rires
5429 MR. LeGRICE: Commissioner Cram, when you came up with the figure of $1.2
million, you achieved that by adding up budget items 1 through 5, or what we
call "above the line".
5430 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.
5431 MR. LeGRICE: We differentiated that based on items we thought would
contribute directly to programming.
5432 I think, in terms of being genre specific, which I believe was your
terminology, we could also include under m.PLAY in the budget -- you could
include the performance series. What we do in the intimate concert series, that
will be genre specific. Those will be jazz artists in local venues. And we can
include the music mentoring program. Those will be jazz artists we will be
developing. Those two items amount to approximately another $100,000 per
5433 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. I was actually just using your terms from
page 6 of 6.
5434 On FACTOR, I didn't see in the file that you were going to make it genre
specific. You are insisting that it be genre specific?
5435 MR. WATERS: Yes.
5436 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What about geographically specific?
5437 MR. WATERS: That would be terrific. If that can be done, if it can be
aimed toward Vancouver, that would be best, certainly.
5438 I don't think it would be unfair to try to guide FACTOR totally that
way, but if they could give a good portion of it to Vancouver, that would be
5439 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You haven't looked into that at all.
5440 MR. ROMAN: Speaking as a director of FACTOR, that is a fair request made
by broadcasters all the time, and that would not represent a problem.
5441 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So will you be making that request to FACTOR?
5442 MR. WATERS: Yes, we will, Commissioner Cram.
5443 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The Chair thinks that we should be taking a break
soon, because the passionate people next door are taking lunch at 11:30.
5444 THE CHAIRPERSON: And they are leaving the premises until one o'clock. So
if we plan to sit through that period, we might at least have a piece of
5445 Would this be a good time to take ten minutes, and then we would come
back and sit through to one o'clock?
5446 What I would like to do is ask the next presenter, which I believe is
Mainstream -- hopefully they won't take too much time to set up, so we can
move through it quickly, because I want to be able to take advantage when we get
there of that hour and a half of peace and quiet.
5447 MR. SKI: We appreciate that, Madam Chair. Thank you.
5448 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I know. It is very distracting. They were playing
music earlier. I thought that maybe broadcast would have some clout with them
--- Upon recessing at 1023 / Suspension à 1023
--- Upon resuming at 1040 / Reprise à 1040
5449 THE CHAIRPERSON: Continue, please.
5450 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Madam Chair.
5451 I am now going to your favourite topic, m.PLAY. I am breaking it down
into certain categories. First, advocacy, which is $245,000 a year, which, if I
can precis, will be for print and video material showing "music as an artform"
from preschool to high school: $10,000 for print and material design; 150 K for
printing; 10 K for packaging, art and duplication; $75,000 for videos.
5452 What is in the material?
5453 MR. ROMAN: Essentially, that is going to be really defined in the
5454 You notice that it has taken us this long to get to "the symposium".
But, essentially, the consultation process is really ensuring that the material
in the advocacy package is going to be what the educators, the parents, and even
the students contribute through dialogue at the symposium.
5455 We see it as an outline of career options, an outline of where to get
higher learning degrees in music education, how to make career choices. These
are the consultations that we will have to undertake with the professionals who
are committed to improving the school system.
5456 I think that Allan Anderson could probably tell us a little more about
that. But we have made it clear that we will attack this problem of
underfunding, of cuts, and the feedback we got back from the community was: You
have to get the influential people who make decisions, parents and all of those
decision-makers, apprised of the problem. You have to make sure that they
understand it. That was part of advocacy.
5457 Then they said: Once you have their attention, you have to go out of the
way to improve the system. Help us with teaching aids. Help us with curriculum
building. Help us make it better.
5458 From that aspect, I think that Allan, as President of the Professional
Educators Association, can give us some insight.
5459 MR. ANDERSON: Thank you.
5460 Commissioner Cram, one of the big discussions when Paul Ski and I met
several months ago and started to come up with the concepts -- and I must admit,
as an educator, that I was naturally sceptical. So we met a couple of times and
we discussed things, and things evolved, and suggestions that I have made did
come as part of the presentation.
5461 We were talking about the symposium, where we could meet and discuss not
only career prep ideas -- and certainly right now there is a whole aspect
of accountability in education. What are we using this money for?
5462 As we all know, you can throw a lot of money into things and really get
nothing back. The United States is grappling with that big time right now, and
we are as well.
5463 How can we use thoughts and work to convince students that there is a
market, that there is an entertainment world, that there is all of this
5464 Books like "Megatrends: Boom, Bust, Echo" talk about the older
generation having the time and the money to go out and be entertained, to
listen, to hear music -- to hear live music -- and there is no place
for them to do that.
5465 The new generation is the one that will be able to do that. We need to
5466 That is one aspect. There is the whole idea that careers in music are
not just necessarily being a performer. There is also all of the business end of
that, all of the carry-offs and spin-offs.
5467 I read a book that described about 300 careers related to the arts that
students could do. They are not aware of that.
5468 So that is one of the main focuses to begin with, an awareness that
there are opportunities.
5469 As a parent myself, my oldest son just graduated high school. He is
going to go into music. He is at Kwantlen College. I am going under the
assumption that he will have work. A lot of other parents aren't willing to take
that gamble: "You have to take something secure; maybe not something you are
going to be happy with; something you are not going to have a passion for, but
it is going to make you money." We want to get past that.
5470 Working within the symposium itself, and the curriculum aspect, I have
been fortunate to be involved in writing all of the curriculum for British
Columbia, and the committees are meeting again next week. So we have a direct
link with the Minister of Education, and they are very supportive of this:
creating curriculum guides and videos, live performances by musicians, training
in the classroom, whether it is a jazz festival or in the regular schools.
5471 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It sounds like you have a great relation with the
Minister of Education, to the point of his signature on a cheque. Is
5472 MR. ANDERSON: Oh, no. I wish.
5473 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I want to go back to one thing you said, Mr. Roman;
that the purpose of the symposium was to make people aware of the problem.
5474 MR. ROMAN: No. We are aware that there is a problem, but with regard to
the symposium itself, that is to set the agenda to develop the administrative
framework, to tell us how best the advisory council can work. Essentially, it is
a gathering of the people who are aware of the problems with music education in
Vancouver and in the province of B.C.
5475 Yes, I think there is going to be more, additional awareness building,
but, generally speaking, that really is bringing life to this initiative --
m.PLAY -- putting it into practical terms of implementation, of making sure
that we get our straw man budget right.
5476 We had to start somewhere. We created a pool of roughly $7 million. We
broke it down as best we could, in consultation with the community, but the
symposium really is the experts, the parents -- all stakeholders in music
education for youth coming together and saying: This is how you are going to get
the best bang for your bucks. This is how you can help the music system, the
educational community, in Vancouver.
5477 We have high hopes for the symposium. I think we have devoted enough
resources to make sure it produces results.
5478 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Maybe we should start with that: $41,000 in year 1 of
the licence you will have this symposium. That will be the cost of it and, if I
hear you -- and my initial idea was that you were only going to be working
within Vancouver, but you are talking about British Columbia, parents, music
educators -- all of the stakeholders within the system. Is that fair?
5479 MR. ROMAN: The focus is Vancouver, but it is a provincial educational
system, for instance. But, really, it is no mistake that the focus is the
greater Vancouver area.
5480 MR. SKI: If I could mention, too, Commissioner Cram, there may be people
at the symposium who are assisting us who may be from outside the lower
mainland, experts in any particular field. We are going to try to get the best
of the best to assist us with this.
5481 COMMISSIONER CRAM: That was the next thing, because there is $24,000
allocated to symposium speakers.
5482 So then I need to know what the purpose of the symposium is if there are
going to be speakers. I thought the stakeholders were going to get together and
say: This is the problem, and this is how to fix it.
5483 What is the purpose of the speakers?
5484 MR. ROMAN: In preparation for the symposium we will have a steering
committee, a number of the music community and educators who have volunteered to
take leadership in the steering committee, which is going to do the grunt work
for creating the symposium.
5485 They would include Dr. David Duke, head of the music department of
Vancouver College; Wendy Newman of Arts, Starts and Schools, whose mandate is to
attract professional musicians, visit, lecture and work with students in the
public school system; and Allan Anderson, who is with us today as President of
the B.C. Music Education Association.
5486 From that we see a board or a committee where the majority of members on
the board would be formed from members of the music community.
5487 I think that Paul could provide greater clarity.
5488 MR. SKI: Commissioner Cram, also, this is for travel for some of these
speakers. I know that there are some music educators who are doing very
interesting things in other parts of Canada, some in the United States. Eric
Favoro, for instance, in Cape Breton, is doing some different things in terms of
music education, and we would like to have people who are doing different
things, who can help us, as Duff said, to form m.PLAY maybe a bit better.
5489 If we had had a longer period of time, I think, to file our application,
I am sure we would have even more in here, because as we rolled it out we got
more and more different and interesting ideas.
5490 I attended the International Society of Music Educators' conference in
Edmonton not too long ago and listened to many of the speakers there talking
about new things that they were doing, and it was extremely exciting. I think we
would like to avail ourselves of those people to help us.
5491 MR. DAVIES: Commissioner Cram, this is a problem that is not unique to
Canada or to Vancouver. It is a world problem. There is a school system --
and I can't recall which particular one -- in Switzerland that studied for
two years this particular issue. These people, obviously, are ahead of the game.
And there are experts over there that we may want to consult.
5492 I think it is interesting that 60 Minutes this past week -- I don't
know if any of you happened to see it, but there was a story on this particular
issue in Venezuela, and it had a profound effect on the children of
5493 This is happening everywhere, and there are experts over and above being
in this country.
5494 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
5495 I just need the structure. So there is a steering committee, which will
do the grunt work to establish the symposium, and on the same side, the steering
committee, or somebody from CHUM, will figure out the speakers, and within the
first year $41,000 will be spent to have a symposium.
5496 The purpose of the symposium is --
5497 MR. ROMAN: Okay. We call it the seminal event. It is a gathering of
music educators, professionals, parents, representatives, all working together
to refine our operating mandate, to shape our policies and guidelines, and
ultimately to determine the most effect use of the funding available for
5498 We then lay out the administrative blueprint, the composition and role
of the advisory committee, and the necessary oversight of CHUM through Smooth
Jazz 94.5, the principal funding partner.
5499 The findings will be produced as a formal report to guide us in
maximizing the funding activities of the m.PLAY initiative.
5500 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So refine, shape and set up the administration. Is it
really to find out how you can effectively contribute to the CTD through this
5501 MR. ROMAN: To maximize our contribution to the CTD. We feel that it is
already a CTD initiative, but we don't just want to throw money at it.
5502 That has sort of been the guiding principle here, because we have picked
a different path, as you are well aware, with m.PLAY.
5503 It became very apparent early on that we are broadcasters, not
educators. Certainly in the fieldwork that Paul, Ross and even myself and others
have done -- Carl -- that became more and more clear. You are
venturing into areas where there is real need, but don't try to impose your view
of how that real need should be addressed. And we have taken that to heart.
5504 So that symposium idea really grew out of these discussions. If there is
enough budget, which we think there is, elevate your sights so that it comes in
at the highest possible professional level. That is all we are trying to do.
5505 It is too much money to simply say: That's it. We have thrown it into
the pot. If it works, fine; if it doesn't, fine. There will be tracking. There
will be oversight. There will be interaction with all of the stakeholders to
ensure that, again, the maximum bang for the buck is realized.
5506 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What if these people -- eminent people in the
field in Vancouver -- say: Don't put the money in equipment; put the money
5507 MR. ROMAN: I can't imagine that happening, but we are obviously going to
be listening to them.
5508 That is a difficult question.
5509 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Or if they say: Don't put more money in advocacy,
less money here --
5510 MR. ROMAN: Yes. I think that is what it is going to be more like. I
can't see a component that would suggest: Don't do this component.
5511 I think, really, it is moving those funds around, and convincing us, as
the funding partner, that this is the most effective way to go with it.
5512 MR. DAVIES: Commissioner Cram, we find that in year 2, the video that we
produce, assuming that we are advised to produce it, may still live for the
second year. So that money we have allocated can be redistributed to something
5513 Again, the symposium will guide us in that area.
5514 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So why are we going to go today through any of the
rest of it when the symposium can say: No, we don't like this. We don't like
this budget. We will change the moneys.
5515 How can we do an assessment of what is a proper CTD when this is subject
to what the symposium --
5516 I think that you should be listening to the symposium, but how can we
assess, today, the CTD?
5517 MR. WATERS: I think, Commissioner Cram, what is most important is that
we are committed to spending the money as our Canadian talent initiative, and we
have chosen this road to travel.
5518 If we are advised by the people, as Duff has said, who know the
education system far better than we do, then we like to think that the funds we
have put forward here can move fluidly through any one of the different
5519 I think, through the consultation process that some of the people here
have had with the educators, both in Calgary, as you know, and here in
Vancouver, we have a pretty good idea of some of the areas where we can do the
most good. There may be others that we haven't uncovered yet. I am sure there
are. But I think that as long as we are prepared to move the funds within the
guidelines of Canadian talent initiatives, our promise is there to spend the
money. And I am sure -- no matter how we are advised by the people at the
symposium, I think it will do a lot of good.
5520 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But isn't it our job to say that in advocacy you can
spend this much of the budget you have set, but we don't think that this is a
5521 And if you are going to move the money, sort of, from one to another to
another, wouldn't we have to have some say in that?
5522 MR. WATERS: Yes. I think what we would be prepared to do -- and we
haven't really talked about this. We haven't, I guess, thought it through to
your question today --
5523 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I have been up all night thinking about questions for
--- Laughter / Rires
5524 MR. WATERS: I think we would be quite prepared to file what came out of
the symposium and say: This is where the money is going to go.
5525 I think that we understand your guidelines for what qualifies and what
doesn't, so I think it is pretty safe to say that we would make sure the moneys,
no matter which particular heading they fall under, would qualify as a Canadian
5526 I think we need a bit of leeway here, only because we are not exactly
sure, as Duff has explained -- we can't tell you exactly where every nickel
is going to go. We have a pretty good feel for the areas that need help, but
where it all ends up, we can't get to that until we have the symposium, which
obviously would require you approving this application first before we got
there. So we have a bit of a --
5527 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So, clearly, if there were to be any amendments to
this, to what you have talked about, they would have to be subject to our
approval, wouldn't they?
5528 MR. DAVIES: We understand that. I guess our job here is to, hopefully,
convince you that this is a CTD initiative.
5529 When we prepared for this hearing -- we go back a long way here,
because we had experiences starting in London, where we were successful in
receiving a licence from the Commission, and we put $1.2 million toward Fanshawe
5530 Then we had --
5531 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The Bandshell.
5532 MR. DAVIES: -- a slightly different experience in Barrie with The
5533 I know that Mr. Roman would love to talk with you sometime more about
that, but this is not the place to talk about that.
5534 When the call came, Commissioner Cram, for Calgary and Vancouver, we
took that experience in Barrie and we sat down and we said: Okay. We are getting
a different message here from the Commission. We need to go back and rethink
5535 We explored all facets of the industry. We talked to the music industry.
We talked to the record industry. When we came upon the idea of music education,
this thing was roundly received by all facets of the industry.
5536 We are convinced that this is a CTD initiative, and it addresses, not
unlike what FACTOR -- and Duff talked about this earlier -- where
FACTOR gets it a bit farther down the road, this is at the origins of music in
5537 So, yes, it is our job to convince you that it does qualify as a CTD
initiative, and we have to listen and take your guidance on that.
5538 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So now, today, if we said -- or in any
subsequent decision, if you got the licence -- if we said that
5539 Because, you see, we still don't know what the videos are going to be
about. We have a general idea from Mr. Anderson about where they would
5540 But if we say that is a valid CTD, and we say that the budgets for
printing, packaging, art and video are valid CTDs, is the idea that that would
give you the framework? And then we would go on to equipment and we would say:
No, equipment isn't a valid CTD.
5541 I am just throwing that out.
5542 We give you the framework out of the subject matters, and then you would
sort of plug in the numbers after the symposium. Is that the concept?
5543 MR. ROMAN: Not quite. I think I would like to go on the record as saying
that what we filed are the broad strokes. From the aspect of the funding
partner, from our consultation with the music community, generally speaking,
these are the broad strokes.
5544 The symposium is to maximize each of these individual components, to
show us a better way, a more effective way, to make sure that this money is well
5545 And if the symposium produces recommendations and this report, which we
would share with the CRTC, we would have to come forward and say: Here is what
the symposium has also uncovered. Yes, then we would get back to you and say: We
feel that it qualifies as CTD under your framework and guidelines, but we
require your decision.
5546 It just seems to me that we have taken it to a certain point. We are
also asking for, I think, buy-in from the Commission that m.PLAY, in its
totality, represents an important CTD commitment.
5547 Now, our consultation tells us that you can't have ongoing success at
FACTOR and you can't have success at raising musicians and artists at the next
level through the Star Maker Fund without the feeder system.
5548 I don't know how to say it any other way.
5549 We know it at the jury level, with the quality of applications that come
in, where FACTOR can't even fund artists because they can't accept the quality
of the application.
5550 You are only as good as that pool of raw talent out there. And somehow
we need people to buy into our vision. You can't simply field a sports team and
say: Great. We will use whatever is out there and we will create a team that can
play against the Blue Jays. It doesn't work that way. Somebody has to be doing
the farm system. Somebody has to be into the schools at a certain level.
Somebody has to be fertilizing the soil and making it grow.
5551 That is the concept. That is what we have been trying to get through on
5552 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I am trying to work on the structure and how we can
deal with the structure.
5553 MR. DAVIES: Commissioner Cram, on advocacy -- and I don't want to
lose this, because I hope we don't lose any component of m.PLAY, because we feel
that strongly about it.
5554 But advocacy -- and I will go back to the pyramid. It was Allan
Anderson who said the other night that parents are not putting their kids in
music programs any more because there are no instruments in schools. There are
less parents putting their children into these music programs now because they
don't think they are of any value. There is nothing there.
5555 So advocacy, hopefully, will educate the parents out there in that one
component of it, to get their kids back into these programs, to get an interest
in music, and hopefully to start a career.
5556 Again, it is about building the base of that pyramid up. Advocacy is
critical to this program.
5557 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
5558 So after we have gotten the symposium and we have provided the report,
you will then have an advisory board whose role will be to review and make
recommendations. Does that again mean that the money can shift from one facet to
5559 What other things could they recommend? Maybe efficacy. I don't
5560 MR. ROMAN: I think there is a big role in terms of making each component
efficient, and I wouldn't underestimate it in terms of the advisory
5561 But I think that if it is a living and growing initiative, because the
industry we are serving -- the arts we are serving -- music is living
and growing -- I think there has to be that kind of fluidity.
5562 But as professional broadcasters we know that it has to live within the
framework of acceptable CTD initiatives.
5563 There is a governing principle involved here, and that is your framework
for CTD initiatives.
5564 MR. SKI: Commissioner Cram, if I could make one other comment in that
regard, we received a letter from Elizabeth Miller -- she is the Elementary
Chair for the Vancouver schools Music Teachers Association. When we talk about
how the funds are being used, for instance, she says in her letter: The
intercity schools of East Vancouver are particularly needy because of the lower
5565 So that is what we are talking about when we are saying: Where should
the funds go now? Should the funds go into these particular schools, or those
schools? She has identified something, and I think the symposium will help us in
5566 She goes on to say a couple of other things, such as: The equipment
money needs, as we see them, are all band instruments; repaired instruments,
some of which are often currently being done in a rather non-professional manner
by teachers and volunteers; workshops for teachers and students presented by
professional musicians; performance opportunities; mentoring by professional
musicians; funding to attend professional performances; larger more acoustically
correct performance venues; music festivals; festival fees; and money is the
5567 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. On advocacy, I understand the necessity of
educating parents. I look at this and, given the lack of precision of what this
material will be, at worst this could be seen as a CHUM promotion; an
advertisement in the schools.
5568 How can you make me see the sunny side of life?
5569 MR. WATERS: It is not our intention to get any self-promotion in the
5570 I know that from my own experience, with my daughters at their school,
where they have corporate people trying to get in all the time.
5571 That has never been and is not our intention with this initiative. Our
intention is to help the schools and the children with music education, and
hopefully, in the long term, that will benefit the Canadian broadcast
5572 We will take our name right off -- in fact, our name isn't on the
project. m.PLAY doesn't include CHUM anywhere, and we are not concerned about
5573 Our only concern is in helping the schools and the children, and the
Canadian broadcast system at large. That is our intention, Commissioner Cram; it
is not to get any self-promotion.
5574 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. On the equipment, the concept -- and
I didn't understand it before, Mr. Roman. Do I understand that the idea would be
that somebody -- something -- would purchase the actual instruments
and then sort of give them out as if they were being lent to children? Or would
you just make a deal with a St. John's music company that you would pay the
lease payments? How is that going to work?
5575 MR. ROMAN: Again, we are going to do whatever is the most effective way
of getting instruments into the hands of kids: leasing, purchasing --
5576 Carl LeGrice has some insights on that, because he was at the heart of
putting this together.
5577 MR. LeGRICE: The budget figures you have in front of you are based on an
average rental of an instrument of approximately $20 per month, for a ten-month
term for each year, and with those budget figures, we took as a starting point
1,500 students per year who would be affected by that budget figure.
5578 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I rented a flute and it was $21 two years ago, per
5579 The idea would be that anybody could go anywhere in Vancouver and rent
an instrument, and it would be covered? Or would they go to one particular
5580 MR. LeGRICE: That is precisely the kind of thing that we would ask the
symposium; how best to distribute funding like this. We don't want to be
arbitrary. We want to do it based on need. And they are best qualified to
determine what that need is and where that need is.
5581 MR. ROMAN: Commissioner Cram, really, again, having Allan Anderson here
in his position and not having him address some of the issues you are raising
would be very short-sighted on our part.
5582 Allan: the shortage of instruments; how the boards work; how it all
dovetails with regard to getting them finally into the hands of students.
5583 MR. ANDERSON: Just as an example, as I am sure many of you are aware,
CARAS has put out $10,000 a year for the last three years now, and it announced
at the Junos that this was awarded to a school, usually an intercity school.
5584 It was a school in Delta two years ago. Last year, in Vancouver, I think
it was Templeton High School. This year they took a slightly different approach
in terms of creating advocacy in --
--- Background noise / Bruit de fond
5585 MR. ANDERSON: I feel quite at home. I feel like I am at a gymnasium
5586 THE CHAIRPERSON: I sincerely apologize.
5587 MR. ANDERSON: It was very nice of you to set this up this way.
5588 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It makes you feel right at home.
5589 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, exactly. Schools.
5590 The grant this year -- we sat down with a group called the
Coalition for Music Education, which is made up of parents and industry people,
as well as music teachers, and we came up with the criteria for the grant.
5591 We set this criteria out. You had to be a member of the coalition, as
well as a music educator. You had to prove what the need was in your school. You
had to come up with examples of how your administration and parents were
supporting that music program, and how this money, once again, could support
goals that you already have in place.
5592 We gave them three days' notice on e-mail. We had 39 applications, some
of them ten pages long. It was just phenomenal. From the whole province.
5593 But it would also make you cry to hear about the 50-year old instruments
or 60-year old instruments. Or they have 50 kids in an elementary band and they
have a beat-up bass drum, and that is all they own.
5594 Those are the kinds of things that we want to look at, definitely on a
5595 We are not going to say: Somebody from the west end of Vancouver, who
has lots of money to do anything they want, can feel like renting an instrument,
and that's okay. That's not what it is about.
5596 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So while CARAS gives the money, who administers the
handing out of the instruments?
5597 MR. ANDERSON: In this case it was strictly a $10,000 grant, and that
would go to the school and it would be up to the music teacher, in conjunction
with the administrator -- and the parent group is very critical in this
aspect of it. They would choose how to spend the money.
5598 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So why do you need $5,000 --
--- Background noise / Bruit de fond
5599 MR. ROMAN: I think I heard the question. It was about our administration
fee of $5,000?
5600 I don't think that $5,000 in this day and age is a great deal of money.
I think that having 1,500 participating students, spread out across various
school boards, all participating in the m.PLAY instrument loan program, would
require in fact someone to oversee and to interact.
5601 If the boards can do it themselves, fine. We will take that
5602 The short answer would be: We would put the $5,000 in some other part of
5603 But our feeling is that over seven years, as I mentioned before, there
are 10,500 student years of instrument use involved here. That is a large number
of participants. We wanted to make sure, because it was a specific CTD
initiative and not something that someone should do part-time from our promotion
department, that there was budget set aside.
5604 But, essentially, if the boards can do it themselves, if we are sure
that it is going to get into the right hands, that it is going to work as it
should, then we will simply move that. We are not stuck on that amount of money,
that there has to be an administrator, but it made sense to us because of the
sheer logistics of all of those individual instruments, young people, all of
those people participating in the program. It seemed to require some kind of
co-ordination that should be recognized.
5605 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Roman, if you are leasing them, the owner would
do that, wouldn't they? Wouldn't they care about where their instrument was and
whether it was cared for?
5606 MR. ROMAN: I think you have to round up the leasing companies. I think,
probably, we would ultimately make sure that those payments are made.
5607 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I mean, you are going to pay.
5608 MR. ROMAN: Yes. But, as I said, we could move it to another component.
We just felt that --
5609 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And wouldn't the advisory committee be able to at
least get involved in --
5610 Because you have levels of administration here that are one upon another
upon another. Surely there have to be either volunteers from Mr. Anderson and
his group -- and he is shaking his head up and down, in an affirmative
action. There have to be members on your advisory committee. And if you are not
going to own the instruments, surely the owners of the instruments are going to
be worried about them also, wouldn't you say?
5611 MR. ROMAN: Someone has to co-ordinate all of that activity. I can't
understand how we wouldn't have somebody that ultimately would be responsible to
tell us that the program is working, and the individual equipment --
5612 You know what I am saying. I am just saying that for that amount of
money, I think we need to have somebody who can pull it together. Just the
logistics of that many instruments seems to require some kind of
5613 MR. ANDERSON: Commissioner Cram, perhaps I could add to that.
5614 Definitely, as a provincial PSA, we are definitely a service
organization. We don't get paid to do -- I don't get paid to do this job.
But there are times when I don't have any weekends left. I have to have time
during the week, and that means that we need a TOC, and that is $160 a day, just
to give you an example. That would be a concrete example that some costs may
come out of.
5615 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I hear you, yes.
5616 On the workshops, $47,000 a year, six a year: $30,000 for the workshop;
$12,000 for the venue; and again $5,000 for the co-ordinator. I tell you, every
time I see that I feel like I am being nickelled and dimed.
5617 What are these about?
5618 MR. ROMAN: Once again, these are co-ordination fees. If we have a
full-time co-ordinator --
--- Background noise / Bruit de fond
5619 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I think these people next door are going to ignite
themselves even further --
5620 THE CHAIRPERSON: And then maybe ignite us.
5621 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. So, Madam Chair --
5622 THE CHAIRPERSON: Let's break until 11:30. They are going for lunch.
Let's be in our chairs and ready to go, and then we will just power through, and
we will take one hour for lunch, and then kind of go from there. I think we are
going to have to try to work around this.
--- Upon recessing at 1115 / Suspension à 1115
--- Upon resuming at 1132 / Reprise à 1132
5623 THE CHAIRPERSON: I want to say that I know we had previously announced
that we would conclude around 5:30, but, given the timing issues, I want to let
everyone know that we will take the time we need today to fully explore all of
the applications. So we will sit as long as we need to, and we will take a
one-hour break, from one to two.
5624 I gather that our neighbours are off from 11:30 a.m. to 1:00 p.m., and
they are going to discuss at lunch how they might perhaps defuse the passion, or
not ignite with such passion.
5625 Commissioner Cram...
5626 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. I am ignited, and I will be moving a bit
faster, just with quicker questions.
5627 MR. WATERS: Commissioner Cram, if I might -- and I hate to
interrupt, but we are kind of getting the feeling that maybe we need to help the
Commission a bit more with the m.PLAY initiative.
5628 Just through your questioning -- and I totally respect the fact
that you are digging deep here. That is a good thing. It gives us an opportunity
to try to better explain the initiative to you.
5629 But I think that one of the areas that appears to be a problem is, if we
do start to move funds around, might we move them into an area that might not
qualify, as far as the Commission is concerned, as a Canadian talent
5630 We had a bit of a discussion about that. If I might ask Mark Lewis to
speak to that and maybe try to set something up with the Commission that would
help in that regard.
5631 Mark, if you wouldn't mind...
5632 MR. LEWIS: Thank you.
5633 Commissioner Cram, as you may know, CHUM is now in the 16th year of its
support of VideoFact, for the production of videos; we are in the 10th year of
Arts FACT here in Vancouver; and the 6th year of Bravo! FACT. Now, each of these
organizations is juried or has a group of directors who have been brought in
from the respective segments of the entertainment industry to disburse
5634 This model that we have with m.PLAY is not unlike these groups. Over the
past 16 years CHUM has disbursed upwards of probably $20 million to the Canadian
entertainment industry for the production of music videos, recorded material and
other material, and we have had great success in this area.
5635 This m.PLAY is also built upon that success and our experience working
with those sorts of groups.
5636 So the assurance that I think we can give you today, first of all, is
that we would envision approval of the CTD framework in this application. In
other words, if the Commission were to disallow any elements in the application
for CTD expenditures, the moneys would be moved into the approved segments. So,
in total, $7 million would be disbursed over seven years.
5637 However, I think, as a second element of a comfort zone, we would submit
on an annual basis to the Commission full disclosure of how the moneys are being
spent within the respective CTD-approved elements.
5638 Thirdly, if in fact -- and we have had a great deal of discussion
with the educators already. This proposal today is one that comes out of
discussions with the same players who will essentially be involved in these
symposiums, but in fact, over the seven-year period, if there were for some
reason an area that was not covered in this proposal as a CTD expenditure that
they urged us to make, we would certainly come back to the Commission, in
advance of reallocating any moneys, to assure ourselves and the Commission that
that was a valid CTD expenditure.
5639 But, in total, over seven years $7 million will be spent.
5640 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. Lewis.
5641 On the tickets for concerts, isn't this something CHUM would normally do
5642 One hundred and sixty tickets times six a year to school
5643 MR. WATERS: Yes. Radio stations certainly give away concert tickets.
There is no question about that.
5644 What we would do with these is purchase them and make sure they are
distributed to the students.
5645 I think you might have heard Allan Anderson mention that it is a great
education for the students to actually see these people performing the music,
seeing what it is like to expose your art to an audience.
5646 The tickets would definitely be funnelled to the students. It would have
nothing to do with on-air activity of any kind.
5647 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But in all likelihood, it would be a concert that you
would be sponsoring, or co-sponsoring, or bringing, because it would be --
or it wouldn't be. It would not have any relationship to any concert that you
would co-sponsor, or that you would buy tickets to sell on-air, the same as you
would give to school children.
5648 MR. DAVIES: There could be a classical performer coming in. That would
just make sense from a music education point of view. Again, it has nothing to
do with being associated with the radio station.
5649 MR. SKI: Also, it could be big band. It could be various other genres.
It could be classical. It could be whatever.
5650 I think that is what may come out of -- again, going back to the
symposium -- or come out of our dialogue with the music educators, that
there may be particular performances of particular artists or particular groups
that would be advantageous for a particular school, depending on what they may
be studying at any particular time.
5651 MR. LeGRICE: Commissioner Cram, if I might, because of my background in
promotions, when we normally purchase tickets to a concert, we use that as an
audience-building tool. This is entirely different. It is directed toward the
5652 One of the music teachers that we spoke to saw particular value in this
for his jazz band, because most of the artists in that genre tend to appear in
night clubs where minors are not permitted.
5653 So if you have a headliner coming to town, this would be a great
incentive for kids to go and see them.
5654 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But, Mr. LeGrice, that is my whole point. You would
probably, if it were jazz and you were a jazz station, either bring in the
performer or co-sponsor it.
5655 MR. LeGRICE: In those situations, if we purchased tickets, we would
normally use them as an audience-building tool, not necessarily to this end.
5656 COMMISSIONER CRAM: On the mentoring, could you tell me why you would
have to pay the judges; why they couldn't be volunteers of the community or the
B.C. music association?
5657 MR. LeGRICE: For the mentoring, those costs are basically honorariums.
We do something very similar with Arts FACT, the other initiative we have for
QM, where an honorarium of $150 is given to them, just to compensate them for
their time. It is not necessarily meant to pay them for their services.
5658 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The school competition, with an expert panel --
again, are the particulars dependent upon the symposium and the advisory
5659 MR. ROMAN: I'm sorry, the question again was?
5660 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The school competition, the whole venue -- and I
think that is part of the concert, isn't it?
5661 There is school competition venue, competition production, competition
prizes, competition staff. Do I understand that the particulars of that would be
5662 They are the bottom four items on Schedule 4, page 5 of 6.
5663 MR. LeGRICE: Commissioner Cram, we see this as an annual event, where
schools could come together to basically show off their talents and showcase
their talents. We are looking at doing this at a venue outside the
school -- hence the cost for that -- to make sure we have the best
sound available and an audience capacity. There are prizes built into that that
would go back to the music departments of the schools.
5664 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. LeGrice, the question was that the particulars,
as to how it would be organized, et cetera, would be decided by the advisory
5665 MR. LeGRICE: The advisory committee would certainly turn to ask how we
would qualify these people, but we see it as an annual event; that there would
be competitions at a local level that would culminate in an annual event.
5666 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
5667 Cancon: There was no mention of it in your application. On smooth jazz,
subcategory 34, or category 3, the Cancon minimum is 10 per cent.
5668 At page 4 of your presentation today you said that Smooth Jazz 94.5 is
committing to airing 35 per cent Canadian content. Can you explain the 35 per
5669 MR. DAVIES: Commissioner Cram, if I may, as we have found with a few
other applicants, there was confusion about the change in the roles and the
category changes. I think we, too, were affected by that.
5670 If I could take you through the sequence of events, I think that might
5671 Number one, the call for applications was issued on March 24, 2000.
5672 Two, Public Notice 2000-14 was issued at the end of January and proposed
new classifications for music. At that time, the classifications governing
smooth jazz were not in force. Accordingly, the application forms available when
we filed our application did not reflect the new music categories.
5673 Third, the filing date for applications was May 19. At that time, CHUM,
in accordance with the existing radio regulations, filed for a category 2 radio
service and was subject to 35 per cent Canadian content.
5674 It was our intention at that time, and it is still our intention, to
play 35 per cent Canadian music, without differentiation as between pop and jazz
5675 Four, over a month after filing our application the new music criteria
came into force on June 21.
5676 On July 24 the Commission, by way of a deficiency letter, invited us to
clarify our intention regarding jazz music, specifically our commitment to
5677 In accordance with the Commission's request, on August 21 we filed a
revised subsection 7.6 "Station Format" section, confirming that the station
would be operated as a category 3 service, and that CHUM was prepared to accept
a condition of licence to that effect.
5678 The revised form provided by the Commission, which was attached to the
deficiency letter, did not specify any content level.
5679 Since it was not our intention to alter in any manner the underlying
assumptions of the application, the Canadian content level remained unchanged at
35 per cent.
5680 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I asked for an explanation of the 35 per cent. Is it
a blended 35 per cent? Which means, of the 66 per cent subcategory 34, plus
whatever category 2 you will be airing, is it 35 per cent?
5681 MR. SKI: It is 35 per cent in both categories, if I understood the
5682 We will be playing 35 per cent category 34, and 35 per cent category
5683 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Of any other category, because if I
5684 MR. SKI: Of any other category.
5685 COMMISSIONER CRAM: -- Mr. Roman's letter, you may be into easy
listening, et cetera. Is that correct?
5686 MR. SKI: That's correct, yes.
5687 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It is your assertion that this is not a change from
your original application.
5688 MR. DAVIES: Absolutely not. That is what was intended from the
5689 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What about the distribution of Cancon?
5690 MR. SKI: Even distribution.
5691 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Throughout the broadcast day, or throughout the
5692 MR. SKI: Throughout the broadcast day.
5693 COMMISSIONER CRAM: On your financial projections -- and I am not
going to spend the time I spent yesterday on financial projections, Mr.
Dorn -- you said that there was a 5 per cent preference for smooth jazz,
but an unfilled P1 potential of 46 per cent. Could you explain that?
5694 MR. DORN: I can, and I think you will be hanging on my every word,
because I used to be a math teacher and I know how important it is
5695 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Good. I feel better already.
--- Laughter / Rires
5696 MR. DORN: We look, in a study like this -- and all of the
applicants have come forth with studies similar to this. They are all done,
essentially, the same way, where we look at a broad-stroke view of the market,
and what we are trying to do is identify a "What if" situation. If a radio
station like this dropped in, how well would it work, how big would the audience
be, and how successful could it be.
5697 Over years and years of doing this we have come up with a formula that
looks for not would people listen, because that is almost meaningless to
success; it is how often would they listen and how emotional would they get
about it. Would it be their favourite kind of radio station.
5698 We are looking for two things: Could a reasonable group of people listen
to it, and is there anybody else doing it.
5699 Every time we do one of these studies we hope that there is a big
unfilled. That is what you look for. Twenty-five per cent or 30 per cent
unfilled, and you start to drool.
5700 In this case, we are at 46 per cent unfilled. Forty-six per cent of the
people who would like smooth jazz, who could favour this radio format in
Vancouver, based on gender, ethnicity and age break-outs of this market, say
that there is no station like that, and that is a huge opportunity. Rarely do
you see something like that in radio these days.
5701 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You, I think, only filed your results -- and we
have heard quite extensively about the appeal of this genre to multicultural
groups. I didn't see anything in your research, although, Lord forbid, I could
actually understand it.
5702 Did you do any work on that?
5703 MR. DORN: Maybe it would help if I took a one-minute primer on what you
can and cannot get out of a study like this, and how we think of this.
5704 There are three basic components to doing a research study of this sort.
One is, who do you ask. Two is, what do you ask. Three is, what do you do with
the results. How do you interpret it and apply it to a real world situation.
5705 We all pretty much agree on step one; that is, you ask the market, as it
is defined by Statistics Canada, BBM and so on, which is, again, gender, age and
ethnicity. And that is what we did. In this case, this market breaks out to be
about 30 per cent that would fall into a minority category, the largest being
Chinese at 15, the Southeast Asians at 7 or 8, and so on with smaller
5706 That is how we poll our sample, and that is how we do a study like
5707 Again, we all pretty much agree on that.
5708 What we don't agree on so much is what do you ask them, and in your
case, your question, what do we do with that information.
5709 I have done over 400 of these radio audience research studies in Canada,
and in fact 40 on focus groups and music testing and cross-sectional studies in
Vancouver alone, including one last week. We have come to the conclusion that
you cannot get reliable ethnic information on studies like this. You just can't.
The numbers don't hold up.
5710 I heard some of the numbers thrown around this week. You are talking
about sample sizes of 40 and 60 people. If 25 per cent of a group says, "I would
definitely do this. I would listen there", or whatever, that number could really
be 10, or it could be 40, and we would not want to project on that.
5711 As a result, we don't break it out. We look at what does the market tell
us, because that is where the success will come from.
5712 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. Now to the frequently asked frequency
questions, Commissioner Pennefather.
5713 That was from yesterday.
5714 As you know, other applicants wish to use frequency 94.9 in Vancouver.
One is CBC, with la Châine culturelle. You have not proposed any alternate
frequencies. Have you done any further engineering studies to find alternate
frequencies that could be used for either yourselves or CBC?
5715 MR. WATERS: Yes, we have.
5716 May I?
5717 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And...?
5718 MR. WATERS: I have prepared something, if I might just read it.
5719 CHUM has explored a number of alternatives in respect of the use of the
remaining frequencies by the CBC. We have an innovative recommendation which has
not been discussed yet.
5720 In the course of this hearing you have asked applicants whether they
have explored the use of alternative FM or AM frequencies.
5721 The Vancouver market is the number one market in Canada for
talk-formatted stations operating on the AM band. AM radio still has a very
large and loyal following in Vancouver. In fact, over 26 per cent of all radio
tuning in this market is to talk-formatted AM stations, including the CBC's
Radio One English-language service.
5722 The current SRC la Première châine service on 97.7 is a talk-oriented
service which broadcasts in monoral.
5723 In view of the disproportionately small audience size for CBUF relative
to the mainstream English-language music-based radio proposals before the
Commission, CHUM believes it would be in the public interest for the monoral SRC
talk-oriented service to utilize an AM frequency, and thereby relocate the new
French-language la Châine culturelle stereo service to the existing 97.7
5724 Clearly, the demonstrated success of CBC's Radio One CBU-AM in this
market indicates that CBUF operating on AM would provide good service to its
5725 Doug Allen and Associates prepared two reports for CHUM, which we will
be pleased to provide the Commission. There are at least three AM frequencies
which would provide a good level of service to the current 18,000 listeners of
the existing CBUF service. Those AM frequencies are: 1200, 1610 and 1630.
5726 Mr. Allen has confirmed that the 1200 frequency, which was formerly used
by CKDA Victoria, could be made to operate from CHUM's existing CFUN site and
has provided us with an estimate for the cost of additional towers.
5727 CHUM proposes the following innovative solution to the frequency
problem. We are prepared, at our expense, to provide transmission towers to SRC
at the CFUN site to permit the transfer of la Première châine service to AM,
thereby freeing 97.7 for use by SRC's stereo network.
5728 We believe that this would be the best use of scarce frequencies, and
thereby open the way for licensing additional local FM services. This proposal,
we believe, is in the public interest.
5729 The Commission has also heard from the other applicants regarding
alternative FM frequencies which could be utilized by SRC. This, too, is
summarized in Mr. Allen's report.
5730 Given the small historical audience and relatively small number of hours
of tuning to the existing SRC service in Vancouver, the talk-oriented service
could be moved to one of the alternative FM frequencies, such as 88.1.
5731 Last, we understand that Mr. Allen will be appearing at this hearing and
he will be able to answer any additional questions which you may have regarding
the frequency allocation.
5732 I believe that he might be here this afternoon.
5733 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. Could you file those two reports?
5734 MR. WATERS: Certainly.
5735 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
5736 Why do you think that CHUM should be given this frequency rather than
CBC or any of the other applicants?
5737 MR. WATERS: Commissioner Cram, I suppose being 10th or 11th on the list
you get to hear the questions that you have asked the other applicants, so I
have prepared something.
5738 There has been a great deal of discussion over the past few days about
local ownership, the location of head offices, and the size of companies. But,
really, none of that matters to the most important people in all of this: the
listeners. More often than not they don't know who owns the station, and they
don't care. The listener only knows whether he or she likes what comes out of
5739 It is our responsibility as broadcasters to give the listeners what they
want. At CHUM, our strategy to achieve that goal is simple. We ask them. We do
this through ongoing research in all of our markets.
5740 We don't conduct these major research projects only when we are applying
for a new licence; we do them all the time. It is our way of asking our
listeners: How are we doing? Are we giving you what you want? It is our report
5741 CHUM's success in radio across Canada is proof that our strategy
5742 The people of Vancouver have told us that they want a smooth jazz radio
station, and that is what CHUM will give them; a compelling, creative, local
smooth jazz station.
5743 We are proud of CHUM's record of community service in Vancouver through
such initiatives as Arts FACT, the Arts Foundation to Assist Canadian Talent,
and the continuing support of Arts Umbrella, a performance and visual art
5744 Finally, we feel that our innovative Canadian talent initiative, m.PLAY,
will not only benefit music education in the Vancouver community, but will bring
long-term benefits to the Canadian broadcast system.
5745 Carl LeGrice, whom you have met today, is one of the creators of m.PLAY.
I thought I would share with you his vision for m.PLAY, which says it better
than anything I have heard:
"Music is a language. Genres are only dialect. m.PLAY is designed to help
young artists discover and explore that language. It is not just about jazz; it
is about connecting young minds to one of the world's most powerful forms of
expression; about learning to articulate the universal language of music.
If m.PLAY encourages an artist to create great jazz, we will play it. If it
moves them to write an opera, sing the blues, or start a rock-and-roll band, we
will applaud them. Even if it only serves to broaden a child's appreciation of
music as an artform, to recognize its complexities and possibilities, then
m.PLAY will have succeeded."
5746 Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, for these reasons we
respectfully ask for your approval of this application.
5747 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, gentlemen, ladies.
5748 Madam Chair...
5749 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cram.
5750 I believe that Commissioner Cardozo has a question.
5751 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I have two very quick, specific questions.
5752 On the advocacy portion of m.PLAY, who would write the material?
5753 I see what you are going to do in terms of producing the video and so
forth, but who would actually prepare the message?
5754 MR. ROMAN: Again, we would be working under the guidance of our
symposium, and we would hire third party people.
5755 In other words, that advocacy message would have to reflect the
collective view of the advisory committee with regard to what it is we are
5756 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So it is a community-based message, as opposed to
a CHUM-based message.
5757 MR. ROMAN: That is correct. CHUM would probably not appear -- in
fact, it wouldn't appear in that message.
5758 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And if you didn't fully agree with the
message -- I just want to get this on the record -- would you still go
ahead with it?
5759 MR. ROMAN: Our advisory board is a consultative body, but we would be
outnumbered on that advisory board. I wish to assure you that once we are hands
off -- we have to have good judgment in assembling people and creating a
mandate, but after that it is their decision.
5760 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Secondly -- and a yes or no answer would work
fine -- on the point, Mr. Waters, you just mentioned in terms of the
frequency answer to Commissioner Cram, is the offer, in terms of housing the
frequency within your tower, contingent on you getting 94.5? Or is that an offer
that would exist --
5761 MR. WATERS: You can stop right there.
5762 It is a yes if our application is approved. We would do it. If it is not
approved, we would not.
5763 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: All right. Thank you.
5764 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cardozo.
5765 I have been asking several of the applicants --
5766 How do I pose this?
5767 I recognize and acknowledge the service that all of the broadcasters
provide. Radio is a local medium, and I think it can be safely said that all of
the broadcasters operating here offer a good local service. I just want to make
sure -- and I know this has come up --
5768 My questions in this area are really to do with corporate activities and
corporate presence in the community, above and beyond what you might be doing
with respect to Canadian talent development commitments, or other regulatory
obligations, and in addition to what you might be doing with respect to on-air
sponsorship or promotion.
5769 My question is: As a corporation -- CHUM Limited, CHUM Radio,
whatever it might be -- you operate one very profitable FM station in this
market. You have been successful, clearly. What you are doing resonates with
5770 Maybe I shouldn't even limit it to this market. How do you view
yourselves as a corporation in terms of your charitable activities, your
community activities that are not related to specific regulatory obligations or
5771 MR. WATERS: Madam Chair, I think I might have touched on this a bit
earlier, but we believe that when you entrust us with these radio licences, that
is a wonderful opportunity for us as broadcasters.
5772 I think the phrase I have heard mentioned many times inside CHUM,
whether it be radio or television, is that our community activities, such as the
ones we have mentioned here this morning, like Arts FACT and Arts
Umbrella -- we feel that is our way of giving back something to the
communities in which we operate. We feel that that is very important.
5773 We also entrust our management in all of the different cities in which
we operate, both radio and television -- they are the people who live in
those communities, and they operate their stations on a daily basis, and we feel
that they know best what we can do above and beyond what we are required to do
in order to better serve those communities.
5774 Some of the greatest things we do inside CHUM are not things that we
have ever spoken to the Commission about in these hearings. We have some
wonderful creative people inside CHUM, as do all of the other broadcasters who
have appeared before you this week. They have some terrific ideas.
5775 Carl, who is sitting behind me today, kind of started us on the road to
5776 We not only feel responsible to do those kinds of things; we love doing
them. It gives us a great sense of satisfaction to take care of 200,000 children
at Christmastime in Toronto, or to help under-privileged children attend classes
in different schools here in Vancouver. It is just a good feeling and it is
something that we enjoy doing. It is something that kind of goes without saying,
5777 THE CHAIRPERSON: This has to do very much with part of the local
ownership piece, which is not so much the ability to serve the local community,
but particularly here, where we have the second-largest English Canadian market
in the country, frankly, most of the local ownership has gone. We don't have
very many independents, very many small owners. And it is not just in radio.
5778 I think that it is a concern to many of us in different parts of the
country. I don't want to make this a parochial argument. These are things that I
think are important from an overall perspective.
5779 So really what I was talking about -- if I may be so blunt --
is cash. Do you have a corporate donation policy within your corporation? And
when you talk about the flexibility given to local management, do you look, for
instance, and say: We have had several very good years in this corporation and,
in particular, this market has been really profitable, and we have an obligation
above and beyond regulatory obligations or on-air promotions or in-kind things
to really support it?
5780 Because, in fact, not all local companies do it, but there
5781 I really want to make sure you understand that this is not about one
broadcaster or another. It is not even about broadcasting per se, but to what
extent, particularly when you are using public property and doing well, and this
is a good thing -- and a good healthy radio station is a good thing, but
how do we make this all work in a way that is good for the country?
5782 And the benefits aren't just a lot of the things that we call CTD. They
are something more than that.
5783 That is really what I was getting at. I don't want to have a lengthy
philosophical discussion about it. As much as anything, it is to be mindful of
these things. These are things that I think are on the minds of a lot of us, and
I would rather have these discussions here and now, than be not talking about
them at hearings.
5784 I don't think that it is necessarily a criterion, but it is a really
important piece of ownership to me.
5785 MR. WATERS: Madam Chair, I am not very good at these philosophical
discussions. That is more along the lines of Moses Znaimer and people like that,
who are better at this, but let me say this to you. It was a few years ago when
I actually was fortunate enough to be put in charge of the radio division.
5786 I am not sure if I am going in the right place here, but I will try.
5787 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe what I should do is say: Do you have a corporate
donation policy in your company?
5788 Do you have specific goals in that respect?
5789 MR. WATERS: We have the CHUM Charitable Foundation, which distributes
money -- a lot of money -- all year long. Whether we have a specific
amount of money that we give to charities every year -- I believe that it
is a significant amount of money, but I can't tell you what that number is. I am
afraid that is not something that I oversee.
5790 What I was going to say to you was that when I took on this
position -- and it is kind of a funny thing, and I am sure that some of the
other larger companies in the room might appreciate this.
5791 Sometimes the people in our different markets, our different managers,
think that there is a tree growing in Toronto with this enormous amount of money
on it, and if things are failing in their market, they can just call on Toronto
and they will -- I think the expression was: Back the truck up to the door
and dump money in.
5792 I thought that was really a bad perception, which was somewhat
throughout the company -- or in some places.
5793 I think we want to make all of our managers responsible in their own
situations for profitability.
5794 But, to get to your question, if we are, then we like to think that we
will put more money back into the markets in which we operate.
5795 If we run a good business -- and we do -- and we are
profitable -- which we are all hopeful that we are -- then we can put
money back into the community, whether it be through charitable donations or
more funding of organizations like Arts FACT and Arts Umbrella in Vancouver, and
that is what we will do.
5796 I have always believed that CHUM, beginning with my father, has been a
very generous company that way. He is a very generous man, and I think we all
like to operate by that same principle.
5797 I am not embarrassed in the least about how CHUM operates in that way. I
guess that is --
5798 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
5799 If it leads to -- and, again, I don't want to be too philosophical,
but I think the merits of what you are proposing with respect to m.PLAY --
who could argue with the merits of supporting kids in school in music education,
especially in these times?
5800 Really, what kind of got me there is: We have been hearing, some of us
who deal a lot with some of the smaller market operators, that in fact their
donations to FACTOR are not particularly helpful in their markets. They have
been saying: We need feeder systems. If we are not developing the young talent
in the communities we serve, and that is what we want to be doing, then it isn't
going to matter for FACTOR, or the FACTOR artists are going to come from Toronto
only, and maybe a few from Vancouver.
5801 This is an issue that I think is important.
5802 But what is more important to me when I look at this is that I say:
Isn't this something that a broadcaster, a corporation that is profitable and is
doing well and is in the business of music and is using public property to build
their business and is going to need that talent, should, to a certain extent, be
5803 Are these not the kinds of initiatives that tie in with your business,
that tie in with business development?
5804 Again, I don't want to get too specific about this: Would you do
m.PLAY -- not with this particular application. It is just more in an
5805 A lot of the broadcasters are doing very well, and they are doing very
5806 This is not, as I say, a bad thing, but it is --
5807 MR. WATERS: You have certainly given me something to think about by
positioning it that way.
5808 I think you have heard comments about where the initiative came from. I
suppose that when it gets right down to it, it is maybe the most important
5809 I think that some of the Commissioners said it to us at the hearing in
Calgary -- and I think it might have been Commissioner Cram -- that we
really don't have anything to judge you by any longer than what you will do for
Canadian talent. You can move your format at will.
5810 So we tried -- and I think that Duff has expressed this -- to
think outside the box a bit to come up with something that is different, which
goes at the Canadian content problem in a different way.
5811 We are quite proud of what we have come up with.
5812 I suppose you make a good point. Maybe it is something that you could do
5813 It is not something we had come up with before. I guess that is the best
way of saying it. Maybe if we had it might have been somewhere where we could
have been funnelling more funds.
5814 But, now that you have positioned it that way, maybe it gives us
something to think about.
5815 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks. I didn't want to get --
5816 It was really just something that I --
5817 It has been very revealing, sitting and hearing all of the proposals,
and I wonder if we haven't created a system sometimes in which everything is CTD
and everybody tries to do this and this, and we lose sight of the overall
picture, which is a bit bigger. That's all.
5818 I thank you very much.
5819 MR. WATERS: It is kind of unfortunate sometimes that some of the things
that I think do go on, that are great things that broadcasters do, they don't
get exposed in these kinds of fora. There are things that we do, and we are
happy to do them, but they don't get on the record sometimes here.
5820 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and maybe we don't have enough of these any more,
what with not having hearings for renewals or whatever.
5821 MR. WATERS: It has been awhile for us, for sure. These last two hearings
have been -- we had not been to a hearing for quite some time prior to
5822 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
5824 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam Chair.
5825 Good afternoon. Briefly, the offer on 1200 AM for CBC for la Première
châine, is that on the condition that you obtain 94.5 only, or if you obtain a
5826 MR. WATERS: We would sure like to have the licence. There is no question
5827 Everything that we have prepared in our submission to the CRTC is based
on being on 94.5, and there are some situations that are created on some of
those other frequencies where the coverage isn't quite as good, so it might well
affect our business plan. But, I suppose, it always gets right down to the fact
that we would love to have another FM licence in Vancouver.
5828 Yes, we would.
--- Laughter / Rires
5829 MR. WATERS: I was waiting for you to turn your red light off, but you
5830 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Mr. Waters.
5831 Depending on the work involved in the 1200 offer to CBC, how much do you
5832 I notice that Mr. Allen is not here, but how much would you expect that
would cost your company?
5833 MR. WATERS: I did speak to Mr. Allen the other evening about this, and
we don't know exactly how many towers it would take. We thought that if it took
two towers it would be around $200,000. We think there is a possibility that we
might be able to do it with the addition of one, but it might take two.
5834 I think the critical thing sometimes is just getting the real estate to
put the towers on. We have that real estate and we would be prepared to
construct the towers and the other technical things that go along with that at
our expense. But we figure somewhere between $100,000 and $200,000.
5835 MR. RHÉAUME: And after that, how much would you estimate operating costs
would be? I assume they would not be part of your offer, but rather, after that,
operating costs would be borne by the CBC.
5836 MR. WATERS: Yes.
5837 MR. RHÉAUME: Do you have any idea of how much the operating costs of
that 1200 AM would be?
5838 MR. WATERS: I wish I was more of a technical wizard, but I'm not.
5839 MR. RHÉAUME: I'm not either.
5840 MR. WATERS: I would be happy to speak to Mr. Allen about that and maybe
submit something to you, but I don't know that number, I'm sorry.
5842 MR. SKI: I might be able to estimate that. It might be in the vicinity
of $50,000 a year, possibly. Again, it depends on when tubes fail and the type
of transmitter they have. There are a lot of variables that go into the
engineering or technical end of it.
5843 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.
5844 Canadian content, category 3: I believe you said 35 per cent?
5845 MR. WATERS: Yes, sir.
5846 MR. RHÉAUME: By condition of licence?
5847 MR. WATERS: Yes, sir.
5848 MR. RHÉAUME: That would be, I assume, regardless of any
vocal-to-instrumental ratio. Is that correct?
5849 MR. WATERS: Yes, sir.
5850 MR. RHÉAUME: And for the category 2 music, we would rely on the radio
5851 MR. WATERS: Yes, sir.
5852 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.
5853 Thank you, Madam Chair.
5854 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, counsel.
5855 Thank you, gentlemen and ladies.
--- Pause / Pause
5856 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.
5857 Next on our agenda is an application by Mainstream Broadcasting
Corporation for a broadcasting licence to carry on an ethnic FM radio
programming undertaking at Vancouver. The new station would operate on frequency
94.5 megahertz, with an effective radiated power of 46,000 watts.
5858 The applicant is proposing a Worldbeat and International specialty
format, with at least 75 per cent of the music drawn from subcategory 33, which
Worldbeat and International.
5859 Please go ahead whenever you are ready.
APPLICATION / APPLICATION
5860 MR. HO: Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Commissioners.
5861 Welcome to Vancouver Lower Mainland. This is the home of Mainstream
5862 We know the market we serve. We are here today within publication for a
very unique licence, a concept whose time has arrived.
5863 Let me introduce to you our panel.
5864 I am James Ho, President and CEO of Mainstream Broadcasting. In 1993 the
Commission approved the acquisition of Mainstream Broadcasting and a change to
ethnic format for AM 1320, our stand-alone operation.
5865 On my left is Mr. Timothy Jim. He is the Chief Operating Officer.
Timothy has more than 26 years in the radio and television broadcasting
industry. He was controller for news and current affairs at Fairchild Television
before joining us in October of 1999 in his present position as COO.
5866 To my right is Mr. Edward Ylanen. Ed began his broadcast career in 1987
as CJVB under the guidance of founder and pioneer ethnic broadcaster Jan Van
Brucken. After CJVB was acquired by Fairchild Radio, he became Vice-President of
Operations and General Manager of International Programs. Ed was instrumental in
the company's successful application for a Vancouver ethnic FM licence in
partnership with the O.K. Radio Group, as well as other successful applications
in Calgary and Toronto.
5867 Mr. Ylanen is now Vice-President of Operations at CHMB Mainstream
Broadcasting AM 1320. Mr. Ylanen is second generation Finnish Canadian, born in
Vancouver, and has been a resident of British Columbia for 37 years.
5868 Next to Mr. Ylanen is Mr. John Iacobucci. He is a special advisor on
sales and marketing.
5869 Mr. John Iacobucci is one of the broadcast industry's most successful
sales management executives with over 30 years of experience, having established
Canadian sales records. John is second generation Italian and was born and
raised in Vancouver.
5870 Next to Mr. Iacobucci is Ms Paulette MacQuarrie. She is a freelance
writer and broadcaster. Paulette has been cohost and coproducer of the Ukrainian
radio program Nash Holos on CJVB since 1990 and now hosts and produces the
program on CHMB. She has served the Ukrainian community in Vancouver as
Vice-President for Ukrainian-Canadian Congress, B.C. Provincial Council and the
Ukrainian Community Society in Richmond.
5871 On the second row, starting on my left, is Mr. Henry Fetigan. He is a
special advisor. Henry is a member of the Advisory Board of our AM station. He
recently retired after a distinguished career in banking, spending 44 years, a
great deal of which was in Asia.
5872 He brings many years of local and international community service
experience and is active in Rotary International, Canadian Club, Hong Kong
Canada Business Associations, and the Vancouver Crime Prevention Society.
5873 Next to Mr. Henry Fetigan is Mr. George Feng, Vice-President of
Corporate Development. George has over a quarter of a century of experience in
ethnic media, beginning in 1974 with CJVB as Sales Manager of the Overseas
Chinese Voice radio program. He was prominent in our successful bid for an
ethnic AM station, AM 1320, and currently is the department head of Corporate
5874 George is a Canadian citizen and has been a resident of Vancouver for
over 26 years.
5875 Next to George is Mr. Gregory Kane, who is our legal counsel.
5876 Sitting next to Mr. Gregory Kane is Mr. Phillip Moy, who is the
Director, Secretary and Chief Financial Officer of Mainstream Broadcasting. He
received a chartered accountancy designation from the International Accounting
and Consulting Firm Deloitte & Touche.
5877 Phillip is second generation Chinese-Canadian, who was born and raised
5878 Next to Mr. Phillip Moy is Mr. Keith Perron. He is the international and
world music specialist. Mr. Keith Perron worked as an announcer and producer
with the English Language Service of Radio Canada International from 1991 to
1992, and from 1993 to 1996 in Havana for Cuba's external broadcasting service,
Radio Havana Cuba, as host and producer of the English language program "To
Africa and the Caribbean".
5879 He has also worked for a variety of private stations in Montreal. Most
recently he was the Jazz and World Music expert for the Virgin Entertainment
5880 In the third row, starting from my left, is Mr. Grant McCormick. He is
our technical consultant. He is with HN Telecom and has several decades serving
Canadian broadcasters with his engineering expertise.
5881 Next to Grant is Ms Margot Briggs and Gregg Meiklejohn, marketing
consultants. Margot and Gregg are principals with Meiklejohn Management, a
research company with extensive experience relative to the radio industry,
including a successful bid for Victoria's licence applicant 107.3 FM.
5882 Margot is a third generation Canadian of Icelandic descent, and Gregg is
a third generation Canadian of Swedish descent.
5883 Good afternoon, Madam, Chair and Commissioners.
5884 Canada is unique in the world because we offer our citizens a cultural
mosaic where all ethnics and cultural identities are respected and acknowledged.
As the Commission itself has recognized, Vancouver is perhaps the most
ethnically diverse city in Canada and, as stated by the Governor in Council, its
growing multicultural, multiracial and multilingual population exemplifies the
need to encourage the production of Canadian programming that reflects its
5885 Mainstream Broadcasting is proud to apply for an ethnic licence which
will serve Vancouver in two very special ways. First, we will serve a community
with over 700,000 people of different ethnic heritages, of which some 70 per
cent receive no meaningful multicultural programming.
5886 Second, we will offer ethnic and cross-cultural programming for second
and third generation Canadians. This new format will serve to restore lost
cultural roots, while listeners of all cultural backgrounds become better
acquainted with those of their neighbours, friends and colleagues.
5887 With this station we will add diversity to the Canadian broadcasting
system, as well as to Vancouver's airwaves.
5888 Our new music format is inclusive, fresh and reflects a more
contemporary view of our community and will present an effective advertising
venue for businesses which have struggled to reach this underserved market.
5889 MS MacQUARRIE: Vancouver's varied and growing ethnic communities are
bringing about a social and cultural transformation unprecedented in recent
memory. The need for cross-cultural understanding and mutual respect has never
5890 With three radio stations the Chinese-Canadian community, which
represents 30 per cent of the multicultural community, is being well served.
However, the remaining 70 per cent is not. Our station will offer programming
which reflects their multicultural reality, music in their language from their
country, along with music from the countries of their friends, neighbours and
5891 It will do more than just entertain. Through the universal language of
music listeners of all backgrounds will instinctively come to understand why
their ethnic cultures and those of their neighbours are valuable, how we are all
important in creating this Canadian mosaic, how we inter-relate.
5892 In a rapidly shrinking world Canadian society must continue to encourage
our cultural mosaic and allow ethnic communities the opportunities to express
themselves culturally as our society evolves. Our station offers a perfect
opportunity to do that.
5893 MR. YLANEN: Since its beginning in the 1960s, multicultural radio
programming has been serving the immigrant communities with third language
programming slotted hour by hour. Segmenting of the audience is effective for
immigrants still struggling with English, but it creates a language barrier for
a larger segment of the population which is fluent in English and would
otherwise enjoy the music and information of different ethnic cultures as well
as their own.
5894 Our view of Canadian multicultural communities includes all ethnic
groups and paves the way for a more contemporary approach to ethnic
5895 We would like to share with you our vision of a radio station which
combines the spoken word in English with foreign language World Music, creating
Vancouver's, and in fact Canada's, first World Music station.
--- Video presentation / Présentation vidéo
5896 MR. PERRON: As you have seen and heard, our format is very inclusive.
Our target audience is local, energetic and culturally diverse. The spoken word
component in our programming will be a combination of third language, bilingual
and English. In our international and European popular World Music programs
English will be used to position or explain a song or artist so that the second
and third generation Canadians can understand and appreciate the language, the
music and the message.
5897 Our format reflects a variety of different ethnic groups: for example,
European, Latin American, African, Asian and others who are currently unable to
find today's music from around the world anywhere on the radio dial in
5898 MR. IACOBUCCI: In 1993 Mainstream Broadcasting received approval from
the CRTC to provide Vancouver's multicultural community with an ethnic AM radio
station. Since then the company has proven itself a responsible local
broadcaster to this community and now enjoys solid relationships within both
mainstream and ethnic markets.
5899 We have had great success in reaching out to our community with this
local stand-alone AM station, which is well suited to the traditional
multicultural format of mostly talk and information. Music, however, is best
served on FM frequencies. As a local broadcaster with the extensive knowledge
and experience in the multicultural market, we are ready to grow with the
5900 Clearly there is a wide demand for the ethnic programming we are
proposing. An extensive study completed by Meiklejohn Marketing Management
demonstrated significant interest in World Music. Over 75 per cent of a
statistically valid sample expressed interest in the World Music format, and
over 75 per cent expressed an interest in listening to a new world music
5901 This study was reinforced by the fact that over 1,500 people submitted
letters of support to the CRTC for this FM application. These letters represent
a variety of communities: Greek, Italian, Portuguese, Indian, Latin American,
Filipino, Ukrainian, just to name a few.
5902 It would be impossible to service all these communities using our
current method of segmented third language programming, particularly the
European groups. These together comprise a sizable segment of our community but
have been steadily losing radio representation in recent years.
5903 The European segment of our format combines the music of these groups to
reflect the cultural mix of today's society. This will create a block of
listeners who can enjoy music from their own cultural background, as well as
others, and businesses will finally have an ethnic audience that stays tuned
long enough to hear their message.
5904 If approved, our FM station will have a minimal impact on other
licensees, either conventional or multicultural. It will in fact complement the
existing services. There will be no fragmentation within the existing market.
Our station will offer more diversity and music variety for those listeners who
usually flip the dial or listen to their own CDs, and it will create a solid
listening audience for new advertising sources.
5905 We will look to local advertisers who will want to reach this new
broad-based audience interested in their products and services.
5906 MR. YLANEN: Our station will offer an unprecedented opportunity, not
only for advertisers and listeners but also for producers and promoters of music
not widely programmed by other stations. Mainstream Broadcasting has made a
commitment to the development of Canadian talent based on a realistic projection
of the costs expected.
5907 One of the ways of doing this is in the funding of an annual talent
festival that will encourage and ultimately lead to the broadcasting of
contemporary ethnic music produced right here in our own neighbourhoods.
5908 These local community events where this music is featured are
overwhelmingly popular. Mainstream Broadcasting will support more of these
events, and our FM radio station will provide talented ethnic artists a venue to
promote their music outside their own communities. This will encourage more
artistic creativity within local ethnic communities while allowing us to far
exceed the Commission's minimum Canadian content requirements.
5909 Our proposal is conservative but practical and designed to sustain a
realistic rate of growth. The demand has been demonstrated, and excitement will
grow steadily as these communities become convinced they now have a real
opportunity to participate more fully in Canada's broadcast industry.
5910 MR. HO: In closing, we are undergoing a rapid cultural evolution and
Canada's broadcasting industry must keep pace. Vancouver will become even more
ethnically diverse in years to come, and we have an opportunity to prepare for
this eventuality and truly honour the Canadian mosaic.
5911 By blending the music of Canadian and international artists from around
the world, the walls traditionally dividing multicultural programs, their
respective audiences and their communities will come down. The result will be a
stronger community and ultimately a stronger, more diverse broadcast
5912 By its very nature, our FM station will promote cross-cultural
understanding. It moves beyond old stereotypes and offers a cultural bridge
within and between multicultural communities and the whole community.
5913 We live in this community. We know the community and its marvellous
5914 Our application provides for a reflection of this diversity and
represents the optimum use of the 94.5 FM frequency.
5915 For those of us representing Vancouver's ethnic community and Mainstream
Broadcasting, thank you for your time. We are ready to answer any questions the
Commission might have.
5916 Thank you.
5917 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Ho.
5918 I will be asking the questions tody. I think what we will do, given that
it is ten to one, is I will just ask one question of clarification on your oral
presentation, following which we will take the lunch break and come back at 2
5919 If I don't ask the question now, I may not remember it later.
5920 On page 6 of your oral presentation where you talk about encouraging
"more artistic creativity within local ethnic communities while allowing us to
far exceed the Commission's minimum Canadian content requirement", what content
requirement are you referring to?
5921 MR. HO: I will let Mr. Ed Ylanen address this issue.
5922 MR. YLANEN: Thanks, James.
5923 We are talking about the Canadian ethnic broadcast policy and the 7 per
cent Canadian content requirement.
5924 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is this with respect to music or overall
5925 MR. YLANEN: It is the music component.
5926 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that is what you are referring to. I thought I
should clarify that.
5927 We might as well break for lunch. I don't think there is much point in
5928 Thank you.
--- Upon recessing at 1250 / Suspension à 1250
--- Upon resuming at 1400 / Reprise à 1400
5929 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will continue.
5930 I will be asking the questions today. We don't have any questions on
your CTD commitments, but we will be questioning you in the area of ethnic
broadcasting policy, programming, marketing, some of your finances and of course
technical, as we have with all of the applicants.
5931 As you presented your application, I think there is no question that it
would bring diversity to the market. As you know, we have a lot of competitive
applications here for what is a very scare resource here in the Vancouver area.
What I want to do is to make sure we both understand each other with respect to
the ethic policy.
5932 In the area of local content the new ethnic broadcasting policy sets out
that in addition to establishing the required number of distinct groups to be
served, the Commission will also weigh the ability of ethnic stations to provide
appropriate amounts of quality programming to these groups.
5933 The Commission also expects the primary responsibility of over-the-air
ethnic radio and television stations should be to serve and reflect their local
community and that ethnic broadcasters at the time of licensing and renewal
should provide their plans on how they will reflect local issues and concerns
during the terms of their licences, as well as to indicate in their plans how
they will subsequently evaluate their progress.
5934 In Schedule 5, Section 7.5(b), you agreed with the Commission that a
primary responsibility of over-the-air ethnic radio and television stations
should be just that: to serve and reflect their local community.
5935 For instance, you will employ a community events team that will visit
local ethnocultural and mainstream events, promoting cross-cultural
understanding and creating a spirit of goodwill.
5936 Can you tell me what else you will do to ensure that the local community
is reflected in your station's programming and in particular appropriate amounts
of quality programming that are offered to your targeting groups.
5937 Could you offer us examples of the type of quality programming to be
5938 MR. YLANEN: Yes. Our entire concept, the reason for this application, is
because we are an ethnic broadcaster. Our AM station is an ethnic broadcaster,
and we collectively have, as you have heard earlier, various and wonderful and
different ethnicities. It is our only reason for being in broadcasting, to serve
and reflect our local communities.
5939 As ethnic broadcasters who don't speak for those communities, they don't
have a voice. Our listeners and the community at large -- and I know the
Commission is aware of it, so I won't get into a long and drawn out story about
5940 The communities here are underserved. They are demanding more service.
We will in every way imaginable work to satisfy their demands, their wishes,
5941 Our programming is innovative and contemporary. I have a strong
background in ethnic radio. You heard in the intros that I worked and learned
from them and really got my start in the business from one of the pioneer
broadcasters in this country, Jan Van Brucken. He is one of the fathers who
really helped to lay the path for Canada's ethnic broadcast policies going back
5942 He taught me the importance of serving our communities.
5943 What has happened over the past few years has been, for various reasons,
a competition among the existing licensees, among the broadcasters, for the
Chinese market, the Chinese advertisers, Chinese listeners. Unfortunately, it
has had an adverse effect and impact upon other communities, other communities
who not so long ago had a lot more service.
5944 Our plan is to restore the levels of service to the communities who have
been adversely affected and include all communities in our programming.
5945 You see our international program schedule. Technically, by definition,
it does not fit the category of an ethnic show, because it does not say to a
specific ethnic community. That is because it is to all ethnic communities, and
we no longer have that definition available to us to use. So 40 per cent of our
programming technically is not to all ethnic communities.
5946 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, what definition is not available to you to
5947 MR. YLANEN: In the old broadcast policy an ethnic program could target a
mainstream audience. It would be a cross-cultural program that would promote
greater cultural respect and understanding of the ethnic communities with an
English-language program playing the music of different cultures. There was no
restriction. You could not say it was for everybody. Now the definition says an
ethnic program is one which can be done in any language provided it is to a
specific ethnocultural group.
5948 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think what we might want to do is clarify that later
5949 MR. YLANEN: Sure.
5950 THE CHAIRPERSON: Certainly I have been at the Commission for three
years, and that is not my understanding. In fact, I think we had introduced more
flexibility to do cross-cultural programming in English in this new policy than
we had previously.
5951 I am trying to understand what is not available to you that was
previously available to you as an ethnic broadcaster.
5952 MR. YLANEN: We lost one word, and that was effectively mainstream.
5953 In 1985 -- and I don't have the 1985 policy with me here right now -- I
remember those days with Jan Van Brucken, and his idea was to promote
cross-cultural and respect and understanding not just among the ethnic
communities but among all communities; that we could come to understand one
another a lot better than we do.
5954 It was perhaps an oversight in the system. I was not there when they
rewrote the policy. Now the definition to the letter says it needs to be to a
specific ethnocultural group, and we want to invite everyone to join us, as
5955 MR. HO: Excuse me. Let me just add to the points here.
5956 Going back to the question as to how we are going to get the community
more involved, I think one of the key components of our being involved in these
situations will be in participating in different community events. This is where
a lot of this music is happening. We hear it when we go to these events.
5957 There is traditional folk music, but there is also another generation
who plays very modern music. They are only limiting themselves to their own
5958 When we go to their community, we hear all this music and we like it. We
ask why they are not bringing it out, why are they not out there somewhere else.
They say because nobody else appreciates it.
5959 This is one way for us to target our audiences, as well as getting
involved with different communities. We will participate in their events and
bring them out as well.
5960 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is how you intend to provide the quality
programming to the groups?
5961 MR. HO: It is going to be a two-way street, yes.
5962 THE CHAIRPERSON: In the area of local content, the new ethnic
broadcasting policy states that the Commission will expect licensees to report
on the manner in which they will reflect local issues and concerns during their
term of licence, as well as on any plans on how they will subsequently evaluate
5963 I am wondering how you will meet that expectation.
5964 MR. YLANEN: At the time of renewal we are asked certain questions in our
deficiencies and through the process, and we reply to those questions in a
manner that states what we have done in the past as well as what we propose to
do. So at the time of licence renewal.
5965 And throughout the year we work with our communities very closely. So
every effort is made to monitor, record, track what services we provide the
communities. When we have the opportunity to tell the world how proud we are of
the achievements we have made, we do that at licence renewal.
5966 THE CHAIRPERSON: You will just be monitoring the communities as you
program to them and reporting on that at licence renewal time.
5967 MR. HO: Not only during the licence renewal. I think whenever there is
an important event that is going to be happening, or when we observe an
important event, I think it is also important for us to not only let the public
and the community know, but also we would like to inform our local CRTC office
and let them know the changes.
5968 I think it is important that we keep up with the information, keep pace
with the changing community as well.
5969 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks.
5970 Can you tell me who will determine the local issues and concerns that
will be reflected in your programming? Will it be the program director or will
you be relying on individual ethnic program contributors?
5971 MR. YLANEN: Again, it is a two-way street. The program manager
ultimately has the call for the on-air product, but the communities themselves,
as I am sure you are well aware, have become very eloquent in the fashion in
which they present their issues.
5972 As community leaders they see our announcers as leaders in their
communities. They are very welcome, and in many cases they do take the
opportunity to talk to our producers, our announcers, and say this is what is
going on in our community. Can you get this across on your airwaves, please. And
we work towards that.
5973 It is with the co-operation and the directive of the station
5974 THE CHAIRPERSON: Will you be having program contributors then?
5975 I take it your program contributors will be through a consultation
process with the community.
5976 MR. HO: Well, it will be, like I say, both. It will be a two-way street.
We want to take information from the community, and they will be approaching us.
The other thing is we want to be proactive. We want to go to the communities as
5977 It is not like we are there waiting for them to come to us in order to
make us successful. I always believe in involving the community and in going to
them. There are a lot of things happening in their own community, but very few
of us ever get to know what is happening unless we go to them.
5978 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
5979 I want to ask some questions about your programming, particularly the
ethnic and third language regulations.
5980 In the area of third language programming you are proposing a minimum
weekly level of 29 per cent, which falls below the regulatory weekly minimum of
50 per cent. In fact, most ethnic stations in this country generally broadcast
third language programming in excess of 80 per cent, including your own AM
5981 Maybe you could elaborate on that a bit for me. I know we have seen part
of it in the presentation, but in asking for an exception to the policy.
5982 MR. YLANEN: The format that we propose is new right across the board. We
have heard a lot of talk about importing the U.S. jazz format to Canada. Through
our ethnic broadcast policy and our definitions of music programming, this is a
Canadian format. It is not going to be brought in from anywhere. We are a local
broadcaster with local issues.
5983 We recognize the opportunity here to take what has been a pretty -- I
don't want to use the word stereotype but a very traditional ethnic programming
format across Canada and take it to the next level.
5984 There has been a wonderful foundation laid by broadcasters who are
members, and those who are not, of the CAEB. As perhaps the next generation of
ethic broadcaster, as a group we speak largely the English language when we are
communicating with our neighbours over the fence in this marketplace.
5985 The ethnicities of our communities are vast. I understand there are over
100 identifiable ethnocultural groups here. If we were to try to slice up our
program schedule to serve everybody's needs in their languages, the pie would
again become very small.
5986 The proposal that we put forward will work because of the strength in
the overall numbers of the communities. There will be third language
programming. It will be contemporary in nature, and it will be in the third
languages to those communities who have been adversely affected over the past
few years, who have had their programming reduced for whatever reasons. They
have just unfortunately seen their programming reduced.
5987 We want to restore the level of service, and we have done it in a way
that is complimentary to any existing services.
5988 As in previous decisions that the Commission has made, it is not a
duplication of service; it is a complement to service.
5989 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is it perhaps the case that an ethnic station meeting
the requirements of the policy -- let me rephrase that.
5990 Is it perhaps the fact that there is not enough demand in the market for
another station that is meeting the requirements of the ethnic policy with
respect to third language programming in its entirety?
5991 MR. HO: Are you talking about the marketing side of the program --
5992 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. In our discussions with respect to the ethnic
broadcasting policy -- you talked earlier about the amount of programming that
was being done to Chinese audiences, the amount that is available now in the
city in third language programming.
5993 Is it possible that there is not room in the market, there is not
sufficient demand for another ethnic radio station that meets the requirements
of the policy as we have set it up, the CRTC's ethnic broadcasting policy; in
other words, meeting the minimum requirements of third language programming.
5994 MR. HO: As far as our programming is concerned, all of our programming
is actually very ethnically geared towards --
5995 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Ho, sorry. This is not a question specific to
details of your application, but from our discussion of what it is you are
proposing to do and the existence of three other ethnic stations in the market,
is it possible that the market cannot absorb a fourth ethnic radio station that
meets the ethnic policy requirements with respect to both third language and
ethnic programming as our policy exists today?
5996 MR. YLANEN: I think the phrase is in the traditional format.
5997 THE CHAIRPERSON: Adhering to our current policy and regulations.
5998 MR. YLANEN: Sure. There is significant demand in the market for
additional ethnic programming, as I think the Commission knows.
5999 The difficulty comes in the way in which we can service the marketplace
in the most effective fashion if we are going to be fortunate enough to put
forward another ethnic service.
6000 The fact is that approximately 70 per cent of Vancouver's ethnocultural
populace has little or no real meaningful service. There is service available,
but often the programs are very short in duration and sometimes can be moved
around on a program schedule at very short notice.
6001 There is considerable demand for additional programming for additional
6002 To do it with a third language full 50 per cent criteria, if that is
what Madam Commissioner is getting to, could be very difficult in that it
becomes less inclusive for us. We fall back into the old pigeon-holing or
segregating type format, where everybody slices up the program schedule to get
an hour, two hours.
6003 This way the strength comes in numbers, and through the strength in the
numbers everyone gets service and we can really make a go of this. I know it can
6004 The language of our station really is music which, as you have heard
from other presenters, is the international language.
6005 MR. HO: I also would like to add that the other situation we are facing
right now is if we are going to serve the 70 per cent ethnic community that does
not have enough time right now. Statistically speaking, each of these
communities is small. For us to service them, the hour would not be long enough,
and you would be segregating and pigeon-holing them and thus economically
speaking it would be very difficult to survive.
6006 However, if we combine them, they are large enough in our community as a
combination. The spoken words when we do it in English, each one of them will
have more understanding of the program. In that situation where we are talking
about combining all of them together, a new innovative type of ethnic radio,
this is the format we do see that is going to work for us in the future.
6007 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe we should have this discussion in two pieces, if
I may, to make sure we are both talking about the same thing at the same
6008 Let's put your proposal as it stands over here for a minute. If there
was a station, can the Vancouver market support a fourth ethnic radio station?
Is there sufficient demand in the market for a fourth ethnic radio station which
meets the Commission's policies and regulations with respect to the ethnic
6009 MR. HO: The answer to this really is no. It would be very difficult for
this ethnic radio station to survive with the current policy as it is, meaning
the traditional way of doing it.
6010 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. The policy is actually only a year old. It
is quite a new policy that we have. So traditional is also concurrent.
6011 As I was reading through your application, one of the things that struck
me is that the Commission has an ethnic policy. It is designed very specifically
to deliver third language programming to Canadians who have an appetite for that
kind of programming.
6012 As you know, in order to make it economically feasible to do that, we
have had a lower Canadian content regulation; we provide a lot more flexibility
in areas that we would otherwise have higher requirements.
6013 That is the kind of tradeoff that we make in order to ensure that we can
provide a broad range of service to a number of different ethnic communities.
That is why we have an ethnic broadcasting policy.
6014 So this is why it is a struggle to, you know -- and then we have
non-speciality format broadcasting. So there is really quite a range of options
available to a broadcaster with certain ideas.
6015 So that is really kind of what the struggle has been, to understand how
to make this fit.
6016 MR. YLANEN: Commissioner Grauer, our program schedule is designed in a
way to help the Commission find a way to make this work. We want to work with
you and work with our communities.
6017 As such, there is the opportunity, if we go now away from format and
into category, as I think was requested at a previous hearing, we could talk
about Category 3, Subcategory 33, which is a format and a specialty format.
6018 I think the solution here may be -- and we leave it to the Commission's
decision -- to go with a Category 3, subcategory 33 specialty licence. But we
will keep our 29 per cent third language commitment. In fact, we will keep the
program schedule the way we propose in our application.
6019 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do I take it, then, that you are amending your
application here to be not for ethnic but to be for 33 specialty format?
6020 Mr. YLANEN: No. We believe all along that our application is ethnic, but
it also fits the criteria of being a specialty Category 3, subcategory 33
format. It does fit the World Music format and it does fit the ethnic format if
the condition of licence request for a 29 per cent third language commitment is
6021 If that is not, in the Commission's view, the approach to take, we still
are a specialty licence and we continue.
6022 THE CHAIRPERSON: Why don't we continue with my questions and then get
back to this perhaps a little later on. I think perhaps counsel might want to
clarify some of those with you.
6023 Perhaps you could tell me the difference between the proposed popular
World Music directed to Europeans and the mass appeal type of non-ethnic
international music programming.
6024 What is different and what is the same?
6025 MR. YLANEN: I guess it was part of an earlier answer. It comes down to
the definition as per the policy.
6026 The policy requirement for a program to be considered ethnic means that
it needs to be directed to a specific ethnocultural group; i.e., the Europeans.
The international program -- which we put forward not as an ethnic show, because
it is not to a specific group but to all communities; that is the difference --
will play in the European component music directed to the people here who are of
European origins, whether it be first, second or third generation.
6027 The spoken word will be in English. The music will be sung in the
languages by performers of the nations of Europe, and of course Canadian ethnic
talent as well.
6028 MR. HO: Madam Chair, let me say that the international music that we
have proposed in front of you will be basically music from South America, Asia,
Caribbean, Mediterranean, music of Europe, Scandinavia, Africa, Pacific, Celtic
and Middle East. That will be the international music that we are talking about.
We will be targeting all those communities there.
6029 Whereas the European popular world music, as we were saying in our
deficiency letter, you will be concentrating largely on the European
6030 THE CHAIRPERSON: In your first description of the international music,
you identified Europe as being part of that. So it will just be a subset?
6031 MR. HO: It will be a very minimal subset, the music that we will be
playing during the international music hours.
6032 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6033 Can you identify for me the target demographic for your international
non-ethnic music programming?
6034 MR. YLANEN: The target demographic will be second and third generation,
as well as first generation ethnic Canadians. If we get down to the specifics of
our research, 18 to 49 in age.
6035 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that would include -- sorry.
6036 MR. HO: Could I also ask our research people, Meiklejohn Management
Consulting, to address this issue too?
6037 THE CHAIRPERSON: Surely.
6038 MR. MEIKLEJOHN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
6039 We had interviewed over 1,400 respondents within Greater Vancouver with
an ethnic sample that settled in at 710. So we have a decent sample to work
6040 We sampled primarily 18 to 49 as a demographic. Within our study we
found significant interest in the format and an interest in listening to this
kind of format if it was in fact on the radio.
6041 THE CHAIRPERSON: I looked at your study, and it did not occur to me
until now that this would be helpful. And it may be in there.
6042 Did you ask them to describe themselves? You know, were they a second or
third generation ethnic Canadian, being someone who was not of English, French
or aboriginal descent?
6043 Was that something that you asked?
6044 MR. MEIKLEJOHN: Yes, we did.
6045 THE CHAIRPERSON: How many of your sample described themselves as
6046 MR. MEIKLEJOHN: As second or third generation Canadian?
6047 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. Second or third generation ethnic descent.
6048 MR. MEIKLEJOHN: I understand; thank you.
6049 THE CHAIRPERSON: That were not of English or French or aboriginal.
6050 MR. MEIKLEJOHN: Out of our initial sample of 1,400, 710 indicated they
were of ethnic descent, and approximately two-thirds of that group indicated
that they were born in Canada.
6051 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6052 MR. MEIKLEJOHN: You are welcome.
6053 THE CHAIRPERSON: During your international music programming periods,
what role will spoken word programming play?
6054 MR. YLANEN: The spoken word, as we are largely a music format, would
introduce the song of course, but go a little bit further than introducing a
song. It would explain something of the song, something of the quality of it,
the performer, where they are from, maybe a little bit of history about why that
song is what it is.
6055 As such, we can generate a better understanding of each other's cultures
through the music.
6056 MR. HO: Let me just add to that as well.
6057 We will also provide community information in between the sound. For
instance, we will be presenting in a very relaxed way of bringing naturally into
the conversation of what is happening in different communities and what is
interesting, so that the public is aware when they are listening to our
6058 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6059 I just want to go back to third language. There is a question here that
6060 With respect to your third language programming, you have said that you
are going to program it in evenings and on weekends when the audiences of third
language programs have found it more convenient to tune in to their favourite
6061 Do you have some studies or what evidence do you have that would support
6062 MR. YLANEN: This one comes down to experience.
6063 With ten years in ethnic radio working for Jan Van Brucken, as I
suggested previously, and now here with James, many of our target listeners as
representative of the entire populace at large -- because the ethnic populace
really is half of the populace at large in this market -- work during the day.
They are at school doing what we as professionals do, day in and day out.
6064 So at home on the weekend and in the evenings they have an opportunity
to tune in their programs and find out what is going on in their own
communities. This is the formula that does work with Canada' ethnic policy, the
traditional layout that the CAEB in general in the past have established. The
weekends are the times that are the most popular and most effective for third
6065 During the day, if you can go with English and draw enough of a
crossover audience, it can work over.
6066 THE CHAIRPERSON: With your experience with an ethnic radio station, the
drop periods are not popular for third language programming; that 10:00 to 12:00
at night would be the most desirable time for these ethnic communities?
6067 MR. HO: We are talking about two separate situations.
6068 One scenario is our current situation on the AM side, with the
population being Chinese and South Asian. We are talking about the Chinese
population at this time is large enough to have a continuous program to service
them in the morning, evening, driving home, driving to work, et cetera. The
population is large enough.
6069 If we are talking about the rest of the 70 per cent of the population,
that is also a very important reflection of this community. The population is
not large enough individually for us to serve them as a program having an hour
that is long enough during the day that is meaningful.
6070 In other words, if we have to serve them -- if we are talking of a
population of 5,000, 10,000 people, their listening period is probably very
limited economically for us to be able to serve them.
6071 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand that. What I was trying to clarify is
whether -- your supplementary brief certainly says that you have found that
ethnic groups have found it more convenient to tune in at these hours.
6072 I was interested to know if your experience had showed you that the
drive times were less attractive for some reason.
6073 I certainly understand the economic argument. Thanks.
6074 Can you give us some examples of the type of Canadian musical selections
that will broadcast during your international programming periods?
6075 I want to know if you have established an overall Canadian content level
during these periods.
6076 MR. PERRON: When it comes to World Music, the Canadian content aspect of
it still is very new. This is a thriving music genre that has really blossomed
in the past ten years. So for Canadian content, there are a number of artists
6077 It is through this type of outlet that they would get the recognition
that they really deserve.
6078 I will give you an example. There is a Guyanan guitarist who is based
here in Vancouver, by the name of Alfa YaYa Diallo. He won a Juno in 1999 for
the best global album. He also received a grant from Heritage Canada and the
Canada Council to produce the album.
6079 There are a number of other artists out there who are waiting to get
discovered. Through this kind of radio station and our proposed format, because
we will be out there in the community, we will be able to bring them to the
forefront and get them the recognition that they definitely deserve.
6080 THE CHAIRPERSON: I certainly want deal with both, but I wonder if at
this point we can talk about the international music programming block which is
-- now I have to get my notes, because I have trouble following all these
6081 It is your non-ethnic programming period that is the international
music, which is 6:00 to 10:00 a.m. and then 7:00 to 10:00 p.m.?
6082 Rather than getting into that right now, perhaps you can give me the
type of Canadian music and your Canadian content levels during the international
6083 MR. YLANEN: I will ask Keith to speak to the type of music, but I will
state that, as per the CAEB initiative that falls under our CTD plan, there are
over a thousand Canadian artists already catalogued as international and/or
world music artists, Canadian talent of ethnic origin. There is significant
talent out there -- I think the phrase was -- waiting to be discovered. We would
like to help them to get discovered.
6084 The balance of it would be with the international programming
specifically on the percentage level, is the question?
6085 THE CHAIRPERSON: Category 34. I am making sure I understand this, and
correct me if I am wrong.
6086 In your international music segment -- that is your World Music Category
34 -- what would your Canadian content be during that period?
6087 MR. HO: The Canadian content in this case would be 10 per cent.
6088 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, 10 per cent. Thank you.
6089 Now we get to the consideration of programming directed to Europeans as
6090 You have identified European as an ethnic group and have committed to
broadcast 40 hours of this type of programming each week. The Commission's
acceptance of this type of programming as ethnic is key to satisfying the 60 per
cent ethnic programming regulation required for your station to be considered as
an ethnic undertaking.
6091 As you know, the ethnic broadcasting policy sets out that an ethnic
program is defined as one in any language that is specifically directed to any
culturally or racially distinct group other than one that is aboriginal Canadian
or from France or the British Isles.
6092 I am wondering if you could elaborate on why you consider that Europeans
constitute a culturally or racially distinct group.
6093 MR. YLANEN: Yes. The European title of the show allows us to bring it
nicely together in terms of presenting to the Commission. The communities or the
nations served would include Austria, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Holland, Italy,
Portugal, Spain, Turkey, Iceland, Greece, Poland, Switzerland, Sweden, Russian,
Belgium, Croatia, Bosnia, Hungary, Macedonia, Norway, Yugoslavia, Estonia,
Latvia, Lithuania and others in case I have missed one.
6094 THE CHAIRPERSON: I doubt it.
--- Laughter / Rires
6095 THE CHAIRPERSON: What I am really trying to say is that what we have
been grappling with here is that normally what we look for is a common bond.
That is what we have in the past. What is the common bond that would constitute
it being an ethnic group?
6096 That is what I am asking you for, what that common bond is amongst those
countries or the people of those countries that would make them a distinct
6097 MR. YLANEN: As we are seeing now in Europe with the European Union,
everybody coming together, there is a common bond, particularly through the
music. The music is the language that is universally spoken.
6098 I will use my culture, my community as an example for you, if I can.
6099 My family is from Finland. My parents immigrated to Canada. I am second
generation Canadian. English is not my first language, as may be obvious
6100 What I want to say is that when the Finns get together with the Swedes
and the Danes and other Icelanders, we speak English. When we are amongst our
own communities we speak our national language. So the common bond becomes
6101 When we get together it is usually through a festival of sorts, and then
it becomes the music. So we celebrate our cultures through the music. The music
really is the common bond.
6102 For Europeans, as you probably noticed in the video, there is a
cross-cultural respect. Italians enjoy the music of Portugal. The Spaniards
enjoy the music of Italy. The Greeks enjoy music and life and the celebrations
that it brings in everyone's music. That is the common bond, and that is what we
try to present today to the Commission.
6103 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6104 I know you referred to the spoken word. European programs will include
news, information and current events from Europe of interest to listeners of
6105 What specific types of spoken word content would you broadcast that
would reflect this, and where would you get the information from Europe?
6106 MR. JIM: Since the format for this radio will be music driven,
academically we would like to broadcast 50 per cent of the news in local content
and 25 per cent in national and 25 per cent in international. But that is only
6107 I think when it comes to actual practice, it really depends on the
newsworthiness of the day as it develops.
6108 On the part of news gathering, we rely pretty heavily on our contacts in
the community. It is our intention to bring in people who have multi-lingual
capabilities to do the show. We would begin a show with English language news
capsule type of report; a brief two or three minutes type of news capsule. We
will repeat it twice in international languages during the program.
6109 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you are going to be doing some third language spoken
word. Did I hear you?
6110 Is that what you said? Or was it all English?
6111 MR. YLANEN: I will speak to that.
6112 The news component of the third language shows with --
6113 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I may have misled you. I am now talking about
the European show, not the others.
6114 MR. YLANEN: Within the European program the news would be done in
English. The spoken word component would be done again in English.
6115 THE CHAIRPERSON: What is the nature of that spoken word content going to
be -- I am not quite sure, and I just want to make sure I understand that --
that would reflect European as culturally and racially distinct?
6116 MR. HO: Maybe I can ask Paulette to speak to this.
6117 MS MacQUARRIE: There would be community information that would be fed in
from the community that is not as readily available on mainstream news, for
example, countries that just don't get the coverage. That would be woven in,
filtered through the community.
6118 So it would be reflected back that way.
6119 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe the best way to do it so that I can understand is
this: Give me an example of what spoken word I might hear if I were listening to
this European popular word? So that I can understand why it would be European in
English and why European is a culturally and racially distinct group, what it
6120 MS MacQUARRIE: It would be in English, and it would be referring to the
various different groups that are represented.
6121 Again, as Tim was saying, it would depend also on the newsworthiness. We
would have news coming in and we would determine, as in any other news
broadcast, what would be newsworthy.
6122 Quite often it would be news that would not be held elsewhere on
mainstream simply because there is too much competition for all the news stories
to be covered.
6123 For example, in my country of origin, which is Ukraine, very little is
often heard because it is just not deemed newsworthy. But there are some 68,000
people in the Lower Mainland that want to know what is going on. You can't all
hear it on CBC or CTV.
6124 THE CHAIRPERSON: Where would you get that information?
6125 MS MacQUARRIE: That information would be available. There are news
sources now in Ukraine. It would also be through writers and broadcast news and
wherever it is available, and also community sources. We do have connections
within the community and also in our country of origin.
6126 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just so I understand this, the European spoken word
content would be country specific with respect to being pockets of
6127 MS MacQUARRIE: It could be, yes.
6128 MR. HO: If I may also add to that, it would be country specific but it
would also be community specific locally. We would have local information; that
we are also targeting the local community information to be announced as
6129 THE CHAIRPERSON: To make sure I understand this, your European spoken
word programming would be -- you would source it from both the community and
from the specific country.
6130 MR. HO: From the community, from the country, as well as we also have
readily available at this moment news syndication that will send us news.
6131 THE CHAIRPERSON: From the various different countries.
6132 MR. HO: That's right.
6133 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I may come back to that, but I will leave it
6134 Why are you not proposing to offer third language programs to some of
these individual European ethnic groups that you have identified?
6135 MR. YLANEN: Again going back to my own community as an example, there
are approximately 10,000 people of Finnish origin in the Greater Vancouver area.
Up until a few years ago we had a program. It was a program that began in 1972
and went on through to I think two years ago. It unfortunately it was ended.
6136 The reason it ended was because our community was deemed too small as an
individual community to warrant the hour that was requested or that was needed
to get the information, to find out what was going on within our own
6137 It is a shame that the program ended, because it left people like myself
without a service to know what is going on. However, if there is a program built
in within the European show itself that provides the information of what is
going on in Finland today, if there is something of interest, or within the
community specifically to our local community, then we get the message. We know
that is going on. This is what is happening at the Scandinavian Center this
week, or this major event is taking place.
6138 Right now there is no source for that information in the community.
6139 If you take the 10,000 Finns and add them to the other Scandinavians in
the market, you have a significant number of people. Through that you have the
interest of the advertising market.
6140 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I will get to advertising.
6141 What would be the impact on your proposed station if the Commission were
to consider your 40 hours of European programming as non-ethnic?
6142 MR. YLANEN: I just want to make sure I understand clearly. Could you
repeat the question, please.
6143 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. As you have proposed it now, you would like us to
consider your European programming to be ethnic.
6144 What if we were to not accept this as ethnic and say this is not going
to be acceptable to us?
6145 MR. YLANEN: There are two avenues open to us. One would be to increase
our third language level and include the European languages. There is some room
in the schedule to do that and meet the requirement to make it ethnic.
6146 The other, of course, would be, as we discussed previously, to stick to
the 29 per cent third language requirement, categorize the specialty licence as
Category 3, subcategory 33, and continue on.
6147 MR. HO: Excuse me, Madam Chair.
6148 In this situation, when you say the European popular world music, if you
deny it to be an ethnic programming, does that also refer to the Canadian
6149 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am asking you actually.
6150 MR. HO: Okay. If you are talking about Canadian content, for sure
obviously this will affect the Canadian content. Under the ethnic policy it
would be 7 per cent. We of course would have to increase that to the Canadian
content. In the specialty format Category 3, subcategory 33, it would be up to
10 per cent.
6151 We are ready to meet with that kind of Canadian content requirement.
That is not a problem with us; in other words, increasing from 7 to 10 per cent.
That is not a problem at all with us.
6152 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's fine. It is not a problem for you with respect
to music. What about your overall proposal with respect to the station, the
third language? If we don't consider it to be ethnic, how does it impact?
6153 We have dealt with the music part, but there are a lot of other elements
to your station.
6154 MR. HO: It will affect our whole programming quite dramatically. Again,
if we have to put a third language in these hours here, it will affect our total
6155 As Ed was saying, there is some room that we can do it, but there is
really not a whole lot of room. One of the most difficult situations for us at
this moment is to target which European groups are large enough for us to
broadcast their language during weekdays, during those hours, from Monday
through Friday, that will be a meaningful time for them to listen.
6156 That will be a really difficult situation for us. There is really not
enough population of any one single group of our European population in
Vancouver for us to do that.
6157 THE CHAIRPERSON: What about some of the other ethnic groups, not
6158 MR. HO: If they are not European groups, most likely they are being
broadcast on our AM stations already, meaning Chinese and South Asian, Japanese,
6159 They are there, and there is a program available. The same thing with
Koreans. There is a program available on other AM stations for them as well at
6160 THE CHAIRPERSON: This may or may not be the right time to talk about it,
but one of the issues is: Can the market support the addition of a fourth ethnic
6161 To a certain extent one issue is: Can the market support it?
6162 The second is: If it can, it's not such a bad thing for people to
compete against one another for better programming.
6163 As far as the marketing and sales on that situation, I could ask John to
comment on that.
6164 MR. IACOBUCCI: From my experience in the last 18 months with James, I
know from a revenue standpoint that there is no room in the marketplace for that
at this time. It is too fragmented. As our presentation here, we are applying
for World Music. We are applying for something that is beyond the present
guidelines, and we recognize that with the CRTC.
6165 This could open up interest for those who are in the second and third
generation, and by doing that open up a whole new avenue of interest and
audience that could be very marketable; and at the same time servicing some of
the people from both sides: from the mainstream side and from the ethnic side as
6166 I think there is room for this. If there is not room, it is just not
viable, in my opinion. I stand to be corrected.
6167 Certainly competition always helps everyone improve. But within the
guidelines, within the audience available today, that competition is enough.
6168 MR. HO: I also may add that the total population of the ethnic community
in Vancouver is almost 50 per cent. We are rounding at somewhere about 49 per
cent, based on 1996 stats.
6169 Of that 50 per cent, right now we are looking at 70 per cent of that 50
per cent are non-Chinese composition at this time.
6170 In our experience, if we are able to survive with three radio stations
serving the Chinese community, I believe the fourth one, serving the rest of the
70 per cent of the ethnic community should speak for itself.
6171 MR. YLANEN: Commissioner Grauer -- I am sorry, Madam Commissioner --
6172 THE CHAIRPERSON: Any of it works.
6173 MR. YLANEN: Thanks. I would just like to point out, if I can, that the
European ethnic community here, as identified by the StatsCan figures in 1996,
represents approximately half of the ethnic populace.
6174 The Chinese community represents 30 per cent of the ethnic populace, 15
per cent overall.
6175 The European component, those who consider themselves of European ethnic
origin -- and we could break it down to any one of a hundred different
categories or groupings -- are about 50 per cent, or almost half, 49 per cent,
by my count here.
6176 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I think what we will do now is take a break
for 15 minutes.
6177 MR. HO: Madam Chair, before you go away, there is one question that you
asked: whether our format meets the current policy.
6178 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
6179 MR. HO: I apologize for misunderstanding what you were asking.
6180 First of all, our format -- sorry.
6181 THE CHAIRPERSON: I was going to say don't apologize. This has been hard
word for both of us trying to get through all of this.
6182 MR. HO: Thank you.
6183 First of all our format, everything that we do, falls under the current
ethnic policy of CRTC. There is no doubt in our mind that it falls completely
within the policy of the CRTC.
6184 The only thing that we are asking the Commissioners to do, Madam Chair,
is to exercise your discretion.
6185 MR. YLANEN: That the Commission retains the discretionary call in the
ethnic broadcast policy to set a different level of third language service.
6186 To further complement James' comment before you go away, is the category
of Popular World Music or the creation of the subcategory may be helpful to
ethnic stations in describing their music programming as by the definition from
6187 THE CHAIRPERSON: I appreciate your raising that, Mr. Ho. It was a poor
choice of words on my part when what I should have been saying is if we were not
to grant the exceptions as opposed to meeting it. I think that is what we are
really talking about, is the minimum and the case for us to make an exception,
as is provided for.
6188 So I take your point.
6189 We can talk about World Music when we get back. Thank you.
--- Upon recessing at 1503 / Suspension à 1503
--- Upon resuming at 1522 / Reprise à 1522
6190 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will continue.
6191 I have one further point on that last question, which is: If we were to
not accept the European as ethnic, you agree to a Canadian content requirement
of 10 per cent, as I understand it?
6192 MR. HO: Yes.
6193 THE CHAIRPERSON: What would happen to the spoken word programming?
6194 MR. HO: The spoken word programming in the European programming? We will
be talking English.
6195 But all of our programming during that hour, even though it is spoken
words in English, will be directed to different ethnic communities during the
time. It is directed to the second and third generations.
6196 THE CHAIRPERSON: If we were to not accept it as ethnic, how would that
block of programming change?
6197 If were to say European is not ethnic, what would happen there to the
spoken word programming?
6198 MR. HO: Obviously we would have to increase the third language
programming amongst our format.
6199 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is that what you would do then?
6200 MR. HO: Yes.
6201 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6202 MR. YLANEN: Madam Chair, with that, we would still direct the
programming to the European community. There would not be a change in the intent
of the show. We would increase the third language commitment.
6203 In other words, to attain the third language level that you are looking
for to satisfy the criteria to make the European programming a third language
show -- i.e., ethnic -- it would count.
6204 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess where this gets a bit complicated and what I
may in fact do is see if I can clarify it now. And if not, I am going to see if
counsel can do better, being more familiar with our regulations.
6205 The regulation requires a minimum of 60 per cent ethnic programming --
which is not variable by exception; this is the regulation -- and a minimum of
50 per cent third language programming, which we retain the discretion to do.
And you have asked for the discretion in that area.
6206 What I am not quite sure I understand -- and I think maybe I am going to
have to leave it to counsel -- is to understand how that is going to work if we
don't accept European as ethnic.
6207 In other words, to keep it as a programming block that is European, I
don't know how.
6208 Do you understand me?
6209 MR. HO: As I was saying, we have to look at the third language content
of the programming. Obviously we will have to find a place to increase the third
language somewhere along the line.
6210 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think that may require some attention.
6211 I think maybe what I am going to do is move along.
6212 Your sample one-day music list identified a predominance of Canadian
artists and selections that would fall outside of your station's subcategory 33
6213 I am wondering if you could offer samples of the Canadian musical
selections that would be broadcast during your World Music programming block
that would fulfil your Canadian content requirement as part of the station's
subcategory 33 Worldbeat and International music format.
6214 MR. PERRON: For the artists of Canadian content within the international
portion of the programming would be artists like the artist I mentioned earlier,
Alfa YaYa Diallo.
6215 These, by the way, are artists based here in Vancouver.
6216 Another one would be Jumbo. The style of music is contemporary African
Kenyan music. Or even the Puente Brothers. They learned their musical knowledge
from the very famous Buena Vista Social Club of the big international
6217 Within the European category, there are a few artists that would fit in
there. They are Canada-wide. They are not specifically from Vancouver.
6218 They would be somebody like Ana Patrica, who is originally from
Portugal; or Juan Miguel, who is half Latin American and half Spanish.
6219 So there is content out there.
6220 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6221 MR. HO: Madam Commissioner, I would also refer to our letter dated
August 14th. On the back we have provided a whole list of Canadian content songs
that we will be playing. In addition to the list that we have provided, there
will also be a list from CAEB. There are over 1,000 songs being catalogued at
this moment as Canadian songs.
6222 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6223 In the area of service to a variety of ethnic groups, we touched on this
but I just want to be clear.
6224 In the area of service to a variety of ethnic groups, the Commission
considers that a balance may be struck between the two priorities of serving as
many cultural groups as practical and providing high quality programming to
those groups that are served.
6225 In your proposal you are offering a weekly programming that will be
devoted to at least 11 groups in a minimum of five languages.
6226 Given the multicultural and multiracial makeup of Vancouver, how did you
choose the proposed groups and languages that you have identified in your
6227 MR. YLANEN: It is a twofold answer.
6228 The first part of it is we looked at the communities that have had their
programming adversely affected; in other words, reduced over the past few years
as the programming towards the Chinese communities has increased. Obviously it
had to come from somewhere, and those communities are the ones we identified as
having gone through the largest of the adverse effect impacted upon negatively,
if you would.
6229 The other part of it, of course, is demand. We have a success story to
share with the Commission on that.
6230 Recently we increased the Portuguese language program on our AM station
CHMB by an hour. The response was overwhelming from the community. We went wow,
this is great. Here we go. If we can do this with an hour, what could we do with
6231 In so doing, we have included programming in the Portuguese language to
both the Portuguese and Brazilian communities. I know individuals in the
community supported that wholeheartedly in their letters of support.
6232 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. So it was primarily where you had seen a
cutback in existing services.
6233 MR. YLANEN: The answer is yes, primarily.
6234 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6235 Compared to the number of groups and languages served by the other
Vancouver ethnic radio services, your station would represent the fewest. In
fact, your commitment to serve a minimum of five languages is less than half of
the next lowest total served in the market, which is 12 by your own CHMB.
6236 In assessing the overall merits of your application, what weight do you
think the Commission should place on the number of groups and languages that you
6237 MR. YLANEN: Again, because of the unique characteristic of the FM
application, we submit that we are indeed providing service to all ethnocultural
communities here in Vancouver through the international program, through the
European program and through the third language shows.
6238 That is our answer; that we submit we are providing a high level of
service to many communities, quality service.
6239 THE CHAIRPERSON: The Commission continues to consider that smaller
ethnic groups benefit from a basic level broadcasting in their own languages and
from programming that assists in their full participation in Canadian society,
reflects their culture and promotes cross-cultural understanding.
6240 Of the cultural groups identified in your application that will receive
programming, which ones do you think are representative of the smaller ethnic
groups in Vancouver?
6241 MR. HO: Maybe I can give you a very good example.
6242 Paulette is our language producer of the Ukrainian program.
6243 MS MacQUARRIE: Well certainly Ukrainian would be -- I have a personal
bugaboo here. East Europe has not really been represented in the mainstream
media a lot, so this would certainly be an opportunity in our community.
6244 The Ukrainian community just on very short notice managed to rustle up
well over 200 letters of support for this application when they heard
multicultural, we get on the air, great.
6245 So certainly that would be very attractive to a group like ours. I know
that there are other east European countries and smaller western European
countries as well.
6246 THE CHAIRPERSON: If I look at the schedule, is the Ukrainian programming
you are speaking of and the Ukrainian ethnic group included here in
6247 MS MacQUARRIE: Definitely. The difference there on the AM, which is the
program that I produce, it is a mix. We have quite a broad audience. We try to
do bilingual because very many of the second and third generations like myself
don't have great fluency in the language.
6248 We do things like introduce songs, what we call half-appeal, half-half,
simply to accommodate that. On the European programming, for example, there will
be a lot of people tuning in that will be quite thrilled to hear a Ukrainian
song and understand the story behind it.
6249 On my program on AM, I might come up with something like (foreign
language spoken) and then play the song, and nobody would understand if they
were listening to that program; whereas on the European program, if I were the
host or any other host would say: "Coming up next we have the Ukrainian who
leads England with this song, hit no. 1 on the pop charts in 1992", for
6250 If they had another one now, it would be a little more contemporary, of
6251 These are the sorts of things. In our community we were thrilled to hear
about a Ukrainian song in the Ukrainian language getting to no. 1 on the
hit charts in England.
6252 So that is the kind of thing. Where else would you hear that but on a
program like this?
6253 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6254 Now I am on to marketing.
6255 Your proposed music format, Popular World and International Music Format
to Vancouverites, are you aware if any stations with a similar format are
operating anywhere else in Canada?
6256 MR. YLANEN: The response is no.
6257 THE CHAIRPERSON: What about in the U.S.?
6258 MR. YLANEN: I am not aware of any stations doing this in the U.S.
6259 THE CHAIRPERSON: So there is no way to measure the success or popularity
of this kind of format?
6260 MR. YLANEN: Through our research and through our knowledge and
understanding of the local market, we have been given strong support from the
communities that indicates that this will be successful. We believe strongly in
6261 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6262 MR. YLANEN: Question 5 of the Meiklejohn survey interview described to
the respondents the proposed format. It featured a list of music styles, made up
mostly of Spanish and Latin American artists.
6263 Given the undeniable popularity of these artists among ethnics and
non-ethnics alike, does it signify that the popularity of world and
international music format would be heavily dependent on Spanish and Latin
6264 MR. MEIKLEJOHN: Madam Chair, in fact, we have artists such as The Gypsy
Kings and Jennifer Lopez, but we have artists also in our description such as
Jackie Chung and The Chieftans.
6265 World Music -- and perhaps Keith can speak to this a little more
accurately -- we chose the description based upon a cross-section of what we saw
as popular in World Music sections in record stores at the time.
6266 MR. PERRON: Madam Chair, I would like to add to that.
6267 As I stated earlier, in the past five or six years there has been such
an explosion in popular World Music. A good example of that would be the artist
that we featured in our video, Bobel Gilberto. She comes from an extremely
musical family. When that album of hers "Canto Tompo" was released approximately
six or seven months ago, people thought okay, just somebody else. Let's see what
6268 That album has just taken off. She has sold-out shows in Toronto and in
Montreal. She was here in Vancouver this past summer at a sold-out show. She was
scheduled to appear here two weeks ago, but she was taken ill. She was
performing at the Commodore. That show has been rescheduled. Again it was sold
out. It was something that nobody had expected.
6269 It was the same way with the Buena Vista Social Club.
6270 I work for the Virgin Entertainment Group, and just in the Vancouver
store that we have I think it was two months ago we sold out of 100 copies of
that album in a period of four weeks.
6271 You cannot base the sales of world music to something like 98 Degrees
because it is a totally different audience. But just from that figure alone,
that threw us totally off guard.
6272 When we tried contacting the distributor to get more copies, they say:
"We don't have any more. You will have to wait like other music retailers across
6273 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6274 I have some advertising questions that I would like to ask.
6275 I think there is no question about the popularity of this kind of music,
and I think what we are really trying to determine here is the format of the
station and whether this music is targeted to ethnic groups generally or overall
to a broader market.
6276 I think it is then depending on what kind of licence is the most
appropriate, which has been a lot of these questions.
6277 Maybe what I will do is do the advertising and then we can get at that
in perhaps a broader sense.
6278 In answer to a question in our deficiency letter you provided a table
indicating that you expect that 85 per cent of your first year revenue would be
derived from international and European music programs and the other 15 per cent
from five ethnic groups.
6279 You also mention on page 19 of your supplementary brief that Chinese
language programming has historically generated over 90 per cent of the
advertising revenue at CHMB operated by the applicant, as well as Fairchild's
6280 Can you explain to us the factors leading you to believe that you can
develop new advertising revenues and operate successfully without any Chinese
6281 MR. IACOBUCCI: Yes. The world format would indeed have a wider appeal
and include a lot of other people. As research says, we have about 750,000
total, something in that area, and that represents 43 per cent.
6282 Then we look at what would be in that ethnic group, and there would be
about 351,000. So it is a much larger audience in total than you have, for
instance, in the Chinese.
6283 So the numbers would be there to support the interest. As you say, we
all know how it has boomed, how the music has boomed. I believe it will generate
the numbers to support the advertising interest because of the appeal of the
6284 In the case of Chinese, you have three stations chasing, if you like, a
couple of hundred thousand people, according to StatsCanada 1996, and now you
have to look at a total market of about 350,000-odd.
6285 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can you elaborate for me your plans to develop that new
advertising, especially the 85 per cent from international and European music
6286 MR. IACOBUCCI: Yes, I could. What we would do is that by experience
there would be a whole new opportunity to present this whole new audience to the
6287 We can't fool ourselves. I know from experience that until we are able
to generate numbers, the advertising agency community is somewhat reluctant. But
by experience, I know that you can make up for that by dealing direct with the
clients, making the presentation with rationale, advertising it properly and
showing them the benefits that we have experienced by the research and our
experience in radio.
6288 Does that --
6289 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
6290 My only question is, when you say presenting this new audience, where is
this new audience going to come from?
6291 MR. IACOBUCCI: If I may give an analogy, over the years I have been very
fortunate (a) to be part of broadcasting and (b) to be part of professional
sports, particularly in Vancouver and in some parts across the country. Years
ago when we were considered a hockey town, I remember the days when I used to do
stats for the Vancouver Canucks and we were only drawing a couple of thousand
people a game. People doubted then that we would be able to support an NHL club.
But then we got the brand of being a hockey town, and we know the success of
6292 Then came along Arthur Griffiths who wanted to produce and introduce a
new professional sport, and that was called basketball. Everybody was searching
madly for where would these fans come from?
6293 They did research on hockey fans: Could you afford both, et cetera, that
type of thing. They were in dire straits, to be truthful. They looked at the
American cities and knew that they had a base and an understanding of
basketball, but they questioned the success or possible success of basketball in
6294 And in fact Toronto went through the same sort of thing.
6295 What has happened of course is that now, because of my familiarity with
sports and quite frankly who attended them, when you go to the basketball game
-- which is now very successful, particularly with the new ownership in
Vancouver -- it is a whole new audience that has been unserved. They are sports
fans that did not necessarily have a vehicle.
6296 I believe that that is the same thing that is going to happen with world
music. It is there.
6297 We would like to think that we are the rocket scientists who first
discovered it, but we are not. It is big. It is huge.
6298 Now we are saying that with the multiculturalism that is involved and
the numbers that are attributed to Vancouver, it is only going to get
6299 We are very confident that this could be a success.
6300 When you look at the revenue numbers, we have been very conservative.
When you look at the available pie in the market, and I say the whole number,
what is there and what we are looking at, we have been very conservative.
6301 We feel very confident that it will not only work from a revenue point
of view but certainly from a high interest point of view in Vancouver.
6302 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
6303 MR. MEIKLEJOHN: Madam Chair, we have some additional information which
may be helpful.
6304 Within our ethnic sample of 710,000, we isolated the group which
expressed an interest in listening to the proposed format once the format was
6305 We show 79 per cent as non-Chinese having an interest in listening to
the station. Thank you.
6306 THE CHAIRPERSON: How much of the 85 per cent which you are going to
generate from the international and European music programming will come from
ethnic and non-ethnic advertisers?
6307 MR. IACOBUCCI: I don't have an exact number on that. But I would say, to
address the concern that you have voiced about the Chinese, I believe on the
Chinese my experience would tell me that it would be very little.
6308 I believe the ethnic advertisers, the non-Chinese, is where the bulk of
that would come from.
6309 The percentage of that would be much larger in relationship to the
Chinese. But once established audience and proven to the community, which we
have no doubts about, that particular number will be a lot larger and you are
going to get the advertising community to support that.
6310 We are not going to take it away from anybody. My experience has been
that you never take away the money from anyone else. What you do is you
establish more business for everyone else much like as opposed to having one
store in a mall, you have a number of them.
6311 THE CHAIRPERSON: I know you have proposed that 75 per cent of your year
one advertising revenue would come from new previously untapped sources.
6312 Is that correct?
6313 MR. IACOBUCCI: That number would read -- yes, that is correct, but that
would read as new to ethnic radio.
6314 THE CHAIRPERSON: New to ethnic radio.
6315 MR. IACOBUCCI: Right.
6316 THE CHAIRPERSON: And where are they now?
6317 MR. IACOBUCCI: Where are they now? It sounds like they are next
6318 THE CHAIRPERSON: They probably are.
--- Laughter / Rires
6319 THE CHAIRPERSON: But there must be more than the people next door.
6320 MR. IACOBUCCI: Well, just like any other advertising medium, a lot of
them would be in mainstream and various areas. A lot of them would be in print;
a lot of them would be in television.
6321 Again, you establish this market. Not to be smart, but if you build it,
they will come. But you have to build it.
6322 I have experienced this. I have experienced it with the AM station as
6323 THE CHAIRPERSON: I appreciate that. I think that it was new previously
untapped, not new to ethnic that we were not clear on.
6324 MR. IACOBUCCI: Right.
6325 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6326 MR. HO: Madam Chair, I think Paulette will have a very good example,
because there is one agency that we constantly talk about in the Ukrainian
6327 Perhaps Paulette could talk to that.
6328 MS MacQUARRIE: There is a travel agent here in Burnaby that specializes
in travel to eastern Europe. She is under a tight budget. Commissions are being
cut from the airlines. You are aware of the airline industry. It is very tough
for her to make a go of it. She does not have a very large advertising
6329 We approached her and she can do advertising in kind. That is about all
she can do for the community.
6330 She would love to do radio advertising. She just doesn't feel, with the
half hour or hour a week, that she has any kind of bang for her buck for
advertising just to the Ukrainian community, perhaps the Russian and maybe even
6331 But if she has a block of say ten hours a day where she is going to be
targeting Ukrainian, Russian, Polish, Croatian, even western Europeans that want
to go over to eastern Europe, she would think about it. She would certainly get
a lot more exposure and more business as a result.
6332 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
6333 MR. MEIKLEJOHN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
6334 We conducted a supplementary study. We interviewed 62 marketing
executives with control of media, a random sample throughout Greater
6335 The general summary is that 90 per cent were predisposed and interested
in the format as a potential advertising medium. Just over 50 per cent had an
interest in the format to the point that they were interested in supporting this
6336 Just over 15 per cent actually -- it was interesting. They had an
interest in pursuing immediate negotiations for some kind of a media buy.
6337 I thought I would bring that information forward for you.
6338 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6339 In Schedule 17 you have listed the assumptions specific to your
advertising sales. Your projections are based on a formula that incorporates an
average commercial rate of $40 for a 30-second spot. It seems low compared with
the other applicants, who are suggesting rates anywhere from $60 to $120.
6340 Could you please tell me what factors were taken into account.
--- Background noise / Bruit de fond
6341 MR. IACOBUCCI: There is no doubt about it that $40 is very low.
6342 Part of it is influenced by the ethnic factor at this point, because the
rates are very low. The applicants that are much higher, the marketplace today
is probably anywhere from $100 to $300 and more.
6343 The total revenue in the marketplace, as we know, is $89 million in that
area. That is what this radio market is worth.
6344 We are talking about something that is, in total, about 1 per cent,
1-point-something in total. As a result, the spot rate is much lower.
6345 We will not be at first as an ethnic -- this is the --
--- Background noise / Bruit de fond
6346 MR. IACOBUCCI: I think I had a point here.
6347 I must say that as much as you rehearse, you are not quite ready for
--- Laughter / Rires
6348 THE CHAIRPERSON: They keep saying they are just about finished.
6349 MR. IACOBUCCI: What drives a lot of the rate -- we are very heavily
agency driven as a medium in Vancouver. What drives the rate is the agencies.
There is no doubt about it.
6350 If you were to dispense with all agencies, your rate would go down,
either here or Toronto. Toronto, for instance, might be as much as 97, maybe in
some stations 100 per cent, agency.
6351 So you have this driving force.
6352 We have approached it very, very conservatively, to say: Look, what can
we do? How can we make it? How can we pay the bills and hopefully move on from
6353 We have really been very, very conservative in that approach.
6354 If you were to look at on the other side -- I go back to a question that
you asked me earlier with regards to is there room for the traditional ethnic
station. You have three stations chasing a couple of hundred thousand people in
total on the Chinese side, and you have rates that go down to as low as $20
sometimes. Because they are not driven by that agency market-maker, you have to
consider what is available out there.
6355 Do I think it will stay at $40? No. I think it could go up.
6356 Do I want to be conservative? Yes, I would like to be.
6357 As a previous panel suggested, even with the large sized company that
they are, they said as much as they have been in business and the formula that
they apply, there is no guarantee.
6358 We would rather be safe in that approach.
6359 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess what I am struggling with is that it is an
attractive music format. Certainly the studies indicate the popularity of the
format. I think many of the artists are widely popular across all ethnic groups
and mainstream population.
6360 The question is: Are the rates that you are proposing to charge more
reflective of the smaller niche audiences present on an ethnic station than they
are to the broader audience you are planning to appeal to?
6361 My question here is: In assessing your revenue projections and your
business plan, how accurately is it reflecting the market realities with what is
6362 MR. IACOBUCCI: All I can say to that is no, that does not reflect the
interest level that we anticipate in any way.
6363 I think it brings up another point.
6364 In my experience in the marketplace everyone regards the ethnic as the
small guy on the block. I know there is some concern with relation to the fact
that there may be only one remaining licence, and the CRTC is very concerned
about giving it to the station with the widest appeal perhaps, as one of the
considerations. And I understand that.
6365 But when you are looking at the ethnic or in this case the ethnic
multicultural, I don't think that we should look at or compare size by confusing
revenue dollars with the size of the interest.
6366 THE CHAIRPERSON: We don't.
6367 MR. IACOBUCCI: Okay.
6368 THE CHAIRPERSON: I just want to say that we also don't necessarily
license the station with the widest appeal. There are a number of factors that
go into any licensing decision.
6369 The challenge for us is to balance a need in the market, broad appeal,
and a lot of other factors: diversity, and whatnot. So this is not it.
6370 However, it is important that we understand that there is a business
plan and revenue projections that accurately reflect what that applicant is
proposing for the market. I think that is what is important for us to
understand: the soundness of the business plan with respect to the format that
is being proposed.
6371 That is why it is important to understand these things.
6372 Yes, Mr. Meiklejohn.
6373 MR. MEIKLEJOHN: I was just scratching --
--- Laughter / Rires
6374 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am trying to be alert to all these panel members who
may have something to say.
6375 MR. IACOBUCCI: I would just add that I was giving more of my experience
in the marketplace and the regard that we have for the ethnic marketplace.
That's all I was trying to say.
6376 THE CHAIRPERSON: You did; thank you.
6377 One more before I get to an overall question, you have indicated that
you are the only AM station in Vancouver that does not benefit from relation to
a sister FM. I would like to point out that there is one other, as you know.
6378 I am wondering if you could provide us with examples of the potential
synergies that your current AM station and the proposed new station would be
able to generate; if you could quantify them for me.
6379 MR. HO: First of all, between our AM and FM, right now we have only one
AM station at this moment, and we are serving 12 different languages.
6380 Primarily our revenue is coming from the Chinese community. So we are
actually having at least ten other languages that we are trying to explore a
different way of serving.
6381 With this FM and the way we are trying to approach the community, the
community side of things is very, very important. That will help us in not only
getting information from the community from two sides, both sides, the
traditional generation, first generation as well as the second and third
generations at the same time. We can send a group of people out that will be
contacting them, and yet we will get information from different multiple levels
of the generations that we can serve them better on the AM as well as on the
6382 On the other hand, we also can quantify our large staff that we have in
our AM, especially our format talk and current affairs. We have a lot of news
crews out there contacting all our different communities right now.
6383 We can have the same crew in the news department that will also be able
to gather all the information from international communities and be able to
bring that information back.
6384 So that is another synergy.
6385 The third, of course, is they all will be under the same roof. I have
actually from the beginning always had this in mind. Our space at this moment is
about 9,000 square feet, and nobody runs one single stand-alone radio station
with that kind of space.
6386 The reason that I preplanned it is always that we will become a multiple
radio station instead of one radio station. It is long-term planning that I
6387 Fourth, we have of course the sales, the accounting, the administration
that right now is looking after strictly one radio station. We will be able,
with maybe the addition of a few more staff, to look after both radio stations
in the administration, accounting and sales sides as well.
6388 And finally there is this community involvement that I am talking about.
I always compare that: a radio station is like fish and the community and the
public is like water. If the water is without fish, it is kind of dull. There is
not much of a life. But you can imagine what happens to fish without water.
6389 So getting involved in the community is vitally important for us. That
is where the synergies are going to be coming from. We will be able to fully
explore our experience in this community.
6390 Perhaps Ed has something to add?
6391 MR. YLANEN: No. I think Mr. Ho has said it all very well.
6392 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess my last -- not quite last. I will do technical
6393 I want to preface my question with a bit of a statement. Let me say,
first, that your proposal would bring diversity to the market and is certainly
would be licensable under certain circumstances.
6394 But I think it is really important to stress here that we are evaluating
a number of competitive applications for this last frequency. As I said, we have
to balance a number of different factors when we do that.
6395 You have made an application under the ethnic policy. Again, I want to
speak about the policy. The ethnic policy was developed to bring third language
programming to Canadians for the most part, ethnic programming and third
language programming dedicated to specific groups. There were ways that that
could be financed one way or another.
6396 With television, because of the cost of production, there is a little
more English permitted. So we have slightly different rules in that respect. In
radio we have slightly different rules.
6397 By the time you get to second and third generation who are not
interested in language programming, there are other formats in specialty
available to do the kind of music and spoken word programming that you are
6398 Do you know what I am saying? To do much of what you are talking about
in terms of international music and European and Popular World music, which is a
big part of your schedule, you would not be an ethnic station but you could
perhaps be a Category 3 specialty. But that would have different requirements
with respect to Canadian content.
6399 I wonder if you could just give me your views on that and respond in
terms of how we should approach licensing of this, particularly given that we
may have great difficulty accepting European as ethnic.
6400 MR. HO: Madam Chair, first of all, we can agree with you fully and we
appreciate that you have a difficult decision to make considering that you have
really ten other worthy applications in front of you on top of ours.
6401 It is a situation where we can say, number one, our radio station is a
stand-alone AM station at this moment, and we do need an FM.
6402 Considering the other day when I was hearing a local broadcaster, Mr.
Jimmy Patterson, he was even complaining with one AM and one FM already on his
6403 What we are also trying to do here is to be inclusive as well as
culturally diverse. We also want to promote cross-culture communities and
cross-culture understanding at this time.
6404 What we are doing in every single one of our programs is promoting the
communities, the ethnic communities. Even though our language may be in English,
our language is in English but it is promoting their community; not only
communicating amongst themselves but also across the board as well.
6405 That is what we are trying to gear for. That is our number one
6406 As far as the Canadian content is concerned, I had a lengthy discussion
with our program specialist and everybody, and at this moment, Madam Chair, I
can make a firm commitment to you that we will be and we are able to increase
our minimum Canadian content. We will raise it to 15 per cent for the period of
time. By the time our licence renewal comes, I have full confidence at this
moment that we will be able even to reach the 35 per cent Canadian content.
6407 Like I say, we have done quite a bit of research in the last few months,
and every time we tap into something we just find it is almost another pot of
gold that is waiting to be discovered and it is nowhere being serviced in the
6408 Everything demonstrates to us that there is a market that will demand
and that requires this type of service, whether it is from record stores,
sold-out concerts, all this music that people don't hear on music stations in
Vancouver. Yet every time when we check something, we ask Keith to call people
and there is a certain music that we would like to play, it is not that they
don't have it. They say that they are sold out. They are truly sold out. They
say: "Sorry, we will give it to you or send it to you in six weeks."
6409 So everything demonstrates to us that we will be able to have some
service to this community here.
6410 THE CHAIRPERSON: My question here is this: The revenue potential from
this kind of programming in the English language, both your European popular
world music and your international popular world music, is much greater than
will be generated by a traditional ethnic station, AM or FM.
6411 I think we have talked about that. We have talked about the music. We
have talked about the broad appeal, given the fact that it is going to be in
6412 So my question is: Is it as an ethnic station, an ethnic specialty
licence or a Category 3 that you would prefer to be licensed under, given that
we may not accept the European block as ethnic and we may require you to do 50
per cent third language?
6413 MR. HO: Well, the licence we are applying for right now is ethnic
specialty Category 3, subcategory 33, at this moment.
6414 I think our format is very well falling under the current ethnic policy
at this moment. So if the Commission sees it otherwise, we would work with the
Commission to find a proper format that the Commission finds fitting.
6415 Right now, like I say, what we are looking at, we are pretty certain and
we are very sure that we are Category 3, subcategory 33, specialty ethnic
6416 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am going to leave that to counsel.
6417 I just have one more question which is technical.
6418 We have asked of all the applicants who wish to use the 94.5 frequency.
One of these is the CBC, which has proposed to use that frequency for its la
Chaîne culturelle transmitter. You have not proposed any alternate frequencies
that might be suitable for your application or for the CBC.
6419 Have you or your engineering consultants conducted studies to find
alternate FM frequencies that could possibly be used in Vancouver, either for
you or for the CBC? And if so, could you perhaps tell us what you found?
6420 MR. McCORMICK: Good afternoon.
6421 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.
6422 MR. McCORMICK: As has been mentioned previously, the frequency
congestion in the Vancouver area is such that any alternate frequency that might
be found would have restrictive parameters and very limited coverage.
6423 This is a commercial station application that will be competing with the
existing commercial stations that are operating on full Class C channels in the
6424 So the answer is no, we have not done any other studies.
6425 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have no other studies.
6426 I don't know if you heard the proposal this morning from CHUM with
respect to their AM site and the possible use of the frequency 1200.
6427 I wonder if you heard that and could comment on that at all on whether
it might be appropriate.
6428 MR. McCORMICK: Yes, I did hear the proposal.
6429 I believe the CBC was offered 1200 in Victoria --
6430 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
6431 MR. McCORMICK: And they did not accept it at that time.
6432 My suggestion would be that it is in the interest really of all the
stakeholders in this process to work co-operatively to try to resolve this
technical issue. The stakeholders would be, of course, the CRTC, Industry
Canada, the CBC and any commercial applicant that is given a licence.
6433 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you think that possibly such a co-operative approach
might prove fruitful?
6434 MR. McCORMICK: I think that is the only way. There have been a number of
suggestions made as to alternatives. You can do studies that until you know
whether they would be at least accepted in principle, particularly by the CBC
because they control a number of channels in this area and they have probably
the greatest flexibility to move channels around.
6435 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6436 Could you elaborate why, in your opinion, you should be granted the 94.5
application rather than to the CBC or to any other applicant?
6437 MR. HO: The CBC has been here a lot longer than we have, and I am sure
CBC has its functions in this community as well.
6438 However, if you take a look at our application at this moment, what we
have identified and targeted, the audiences are bigger and greater than what CBC
6439 Secondly, our proposal is truly reflective of this changing community.
This community is not going to stop changing at this moment. We have designed
our format to grow with the community at the same time.
6440 What we are saying here is, Madam Commissioner and Commissioners, what
you have in front of you is a very innovative type of ethnic broadcasting that
we are proposing. Like I say, it is certainly very inclusive, very reflective of
this community, especially since this is the last FM there is available.
6441 We certainly also have great concern and great admiration for the ethnic
communities who have arrived in Canada a lot earlier than the Chinese community
and who have helped to build this community and who have helped contribute to
this community and who stand here to show the newcomers good examples of what
they can do and what they have done.
6442 I would just say that this is one chance that we would want to service
this community, which, for whatever reason in the last little while, has seen
their services been reduced.
6443 Madam Commissioner and Commissioners, this is my reason to your
question. Thank you.
6444 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6445 If for any reason 94.5 were not available, would you be able, ready and
willing to use another frequency if one could be found for your proposed FM
6446 MR. HO: Yes. We replied in our deficiency letter that if there is
another clear signal with equal quality that is available, of course we will
definitely consider that.
6447 THE CHAIRPERSON: And would you be willing to use an AM frequency for
your proposed station?
6448 MR. HO: No. We already have one AM; thank you.
6449 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6450 I believe Commissioner Cram and Commissioner Cardozo have questions.
6451 Commissioner Cram...?
6452 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
6453 Earlier in this hearing -- it may have been Monday or it may have been
Tuesday -- we were talking about employment equity, and Commissioner Grauer was
looking at panels and finding out that they were all suits, if I can use the
6454 Now today, after today or with your group, we have had nine groups,
applications, either be it jazz, urban or ethnic, all saying that they would
appeal to the ethnic population; all using the same words that you used -- I
believe it is Mr. Ho -- inclusive, culturally diverse, cross-cultural
6455 And yet not in one panel have I seen one Indo-Canadian.
6456 It appears to me from the statistics that they are the second largest
ethnic group in the Lower Mainland in the Vancouver area. They are certainly, in
terms of the numbers coming into Canada by way of immigration, marginally lower
6457 I am not saying the inclusiveness, the cultural diversity and the
cross-cultural understanding from not only yourselves but any other applicant
who talked the talk. I want to know what are you offering to the Indo-Canadians
in this particular licence.
6458 MR. HO: First of all, we do have a program in the Indo-Canadian. Sushma
Datt has been with us for many, many years.
6459 COMMISSIONER CRAM: No. What are you offering them in this station, in
6460 MR. HO: Secondly, we also in our AM station have a South Asian person
working our radio station fulltime for over six years as our chief
6461 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Ho, I said already that I want to know what you
are going to add for what is the second largest group in this whole area.
6462 You are saying you are an ethnic application, and I want to know what
this will add for them.
6463 MR. YLANEN: Commissioner Cram, perhaps I may speak to that.
6464 The Indo-Canadian community here is large. It is significant and it is
very important. We are inclusive.
6465 Yes, I know you have heard those words, and imagine how we felt as an
ethnic broadcaster hearing those words from other broadcasters. We don't pay
this lip service. We mean it. We are ethnic.
6466 We have an inclusive program. The international show will include
programming or music to the Indo-Canadian community.
6467 Above and beyond that particular show, at this time I have to tell you
that there has been a recent change at our competitor station where they have
implemented Indo-Canadian programming. It would make it difficult for us,
because it would be a duplication of service. We are trying to avoid that as
ethnic broadcasters. We are trying to create complementary services.
6468 There are four existing SCMOs in the market, and they have an effect on
our ability to provide quality programming to the Indo-Canadian community.
6469 Several years ago there was AM programming available on a large quality
basis in this marketplace, but the SCMOs one after another after another carved
into it. Until the SCMO situation can be resolved, it becomes very difficult for
any ethnic broadcaster. We wish our competitor the best with the program to
effectively serve the community.
6470 It divvies the pie up just too many ways and too small.
6471 We can include the community with our international program. Thus it is
inclusive. Thus it is offered to the community.
6472 MR. HO: I also would like to add that if we are going to get this FM
licence, of course we will have equal opportunities as well from the employment
side for all ethnic background as well.
6473 THE CHAIRPERSON: That was not the question.
6474 The issue is the only thing that is additional for a very substantial
group in this licence application is in the international programming, which
will be in English.
6475 What you are saying is by virtue of your choice to not compete on ethnic
coverage, there will be nothing more than that.
6476 MR. YLANEN: We are not saying there will be nothing. We are saying until
the situation -- and I know it is being addressed by the Commission -- with
regard to SCMOs can be satisfied, as there are signals coming into this market
from the U.S. stations, and I know there are steps being taken at this time by
the Commission to address that issue. When that can be resolved, we would be
pleased -- in fact, we would be thrilled to be able to offer that
6477 But to compete directly with the show that is being added on our
competitor now would jeopardize the programming that is just beginning to
establish its roots in this market towards the community.
6478 We don't want to put anybody's show or any community's services at
jeopardy by doing that. It would not be fair to them.
6479 COMMISSIONER CRAM: If I were a listener of this station and I didn't
listen after 10:00 at night or on weekends, what would be the difference between
your station and any American World Beat station except the odd Canadian CD,
which could be on a U.S. station, and a little bit of information about
6480 What would I see anything different?
6481 MR. YLANEN: You would hear the voices of our communities, of our
ethnocultural groups, coming together. I can't speak for the American stations.
I am not familiar with American World Music format.
6482 In this marketplace, as ethnic broadcasters, we know our ethnic market
and they know us. This is the way that we feel is the most appropriate at this
time to make the best use of this frequency to serve our community, which
represents half the populace of the Lower Mainland.
6483 It is inclusive of all communities.
6484 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
6485 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cardozo...?
6486 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair.
6487 I have a few questions too. I hope you are enjoying this silent time
6488 I should just say that, as you know, the decisions are made several
weeks after the hearing. So the background noise is something that really does
fade into the background as we go through several sessions of sober second
thought. And of course the decisions are based on everything you have filed
before today, today's session, and any other intervenors later on. So there are
a whole lot of things that go into it.
6489 We recognize that you had to struggle this afternoon, as the previous
applicant, and we appreciate that.
6490 I want to get some more clarity on the proportions of the music.
6491 As I understand it, what you are talking about is 29 per cent would be
third language; 31 per cent is what you are calling European; and the remaining
40 per cent would be Category 2.
6492 Is that correct?
6493 MR. YLANEN: I am sorry, when we speak in proportion of percentage of
programming, we meant specifically programming to the six hours of Greek or six
hours of Italian, six hours of third language, et cetera, would consist of the
29 per cent third language programming.
6494 That is inclusive of spoken word and the music.
6495 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So it is 29 per cent would be third language.
6496 MR. YLANEN: This is correct.
6497 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The other 31 per cent of the 60 ethnic that you
are calling would be European?
6498 MR. YLANEN: I believe this to be correct.
6499 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And the remaining 42 is Category 2?
6500 MR. YLANEN: Forty per cent of the program schedule would be
international programming, Category 3, subcategory 3, World Music.
6501 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could I interrupt you here?
6502 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Sure.
6503 THE CHAIRPERSON: This is where I said that I thought our counsel could
straighten out these pieces, because I had much of the same problem.
6504 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Just do that last part again, and I will
quit for now.
6505 The 40 per cent would be...?
6506 MR. YLANEN: In a nutshell, 60 per cent of the program schedule is
ethnic, of which 29 per cent is third language.
6507 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.
6508 MR. YLANEN: Forty per cent, which is the international program for
scheduling purposes, is considered to be non-ethnic, but it is world music,
Category 3, subcategory 33.
6509 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And that is specialty.
6510 MR. YLANEN: Specialty, yes.
6511 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So in terms of Canadian content, what you are
offering is that 40 per cent would be 10 per cent Canadian content?
6512 MR. HO: What I am saying here is that in order to make everything very
clear and straightforward, there will be 10 per cent across the board, minimum.
All day long across the board will be 10 per cent minimum Canadian content.
6513 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I think the penny is dropping for me.
6514 MR. HO: Right. And I am personally making a commitment here that by the
year of licence renewal I will make sure that we will be reaching, even with the
ethnic licensing, we will be reaching the 35 per cent of Canadian content.
6515 That is something that I am willing to commit to the Commission at this
6516 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me just go to European for one more minute,
and I hope this is not part of what counsel is going to ask too. Let me take one
more run at it.
6517 I want you to understand that we are not trying to rule who is an ethnic
group and who is not in the societal sense. That is up to everybody out there.
We are just trying to deal with our policies.
6518 Mr. Ylanen, you talked about Europe becoming more closer or homogenous,
but I would suggest to you that that is happening more in the economic, perhaps
social and political context, but that in cultural and linguistic terms
countries still want to maintain their distinctiveness.
6519 That is the part that we are dealing with, is language, and culture to
6520 I just want to understand. The music that you are talking about in this
European category would be in what language?
6521 MR. YLANEN: Would be in the different languages of the nations of
Europe. It would still be Category 3, subcategory 33, World Music, performed in
6522 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That's the European.
6523 Can you give me examples of artists who are -- you said there are
artists from one country who are popular in another country in Europe. Do you
have examples of European artists who are singing in one language and are
popular in another country?
6524 MR. PERRON: Yes, for sure.
6525 In the video that we presented before, Enriques Iglasias. Even though he
is from Spain, he released his debut album originally in Italian. The first
single from that was called (foreign language spoken). A couple of weeks later
he put out a Spanish version of that record.
6526 There are also artists such as Iro Slamizoti(ph.) from Italy, Laro
Pasinio(ph.) also from Italy, that are quite well known in Germany and even in
6527 Once a year in Europe there is a contest that is held, called the
Eurovision Song Contest. It has been going on for the past 30 years.
6528 The past three that have been held -- there was one in Switzerland, one
in Belgium and I think there was also one in Copenhagen -- it was the first time
that the entire contest, because it is broadcast to all European countries, was
actually broadcast entirely in English to all of Europe.
6529 Each of those countries, of course, their own local broadcasters would
put subtitles at the bottom of the screen. But the concert, no matter what
country it was taking place in, was presented in English.
6530 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The concert was presented, meaning the spoken word
was in English?
6531 MR. PERRON: Yes, the spoken word was presented in English. But the songs
were in the language of where the artist was from. So if the artist was from
Holland, the song would be performed in Dutch.
6532 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are there examples of this type of European-wide
radio stations which are playing music in various European languages?
6533 MR. PERRON: Within Europe, yes.
6534 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is it a popular phenomenon? Is it new?
6535 MR. PERRON: There is a radio station based in Cologne, Germany. They
used to be called Deutscholankfunk. They have changed name now. They broadcast
to all of Europe on longwave, mediumwave and shortwave. They broadcast all their
programming in English and in German. The spoken word is in those two
6536 If it is on the English portion of the programming, the music is played
in a variety of European languages. It is the same thing for their four-hour
daily German broadcast to all of Europe. They play the music in a variety of
6537 Their listenership -- and these are figures from the European Broadcast
Union -- averages somewhere between 1 to 2 million listeners a week throughout
all of Europe.
6538 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The countries you have mentioned have largely been
Nordic, west European, south European. Is it your experience that eastern
European countries are also participating in this cross European approach?
6539 MR. PERRON: Yes. In the last couple of years, because of the changes
within Europe, you are starting to see a lot of artists from Russia, the
Ukraine, former Republics of the USSR. Hungary, Poland and Rumania are also
appearing now in the Eurovision Song Contest.
6540 In the past five years or even six years, since World Music has really
been getting popular, a lot of the record labels have been discovering artists
in this region of the world which before was totally unchartered waters.
6541 There have even been record labels that have started up to bring the
music of eastern Europe to the west.
6542 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Finally, I know what our category says but I just
want to get your sense of the difference between Worldbeat and Urban music and
why you picked one over the other.
6543 We heard quite a bit earlier this week from Urban Music applicants who
felt that that was really a format and a genre that is very popular among the
multicultural, the full cultural mosaic of young people in this area.
6544 MR. PERRON: Urban music -- let me see if I understand the question
6545 You are asking me of the difference between Urban and World music.
6546 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And why you picked World.
6547 MR. PERRON: World music does not just cover one particular style. It
covers everything from Technomusic to Dance music, to House music to old
fashioned Rock and Roll, to what I would call stereotypical American Top Forty.
It covers many different genres.
6548 Urban, coming from the music industry and having worked as a radio
broadcaster, mainly covers the areas of Soul and Rap and Hip Hop. It is
6549 There are some artists from Europe that do perform Urban music, but it
is mainly a U.S. style. So a lot of the European artists will want to protect
6550 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I am not looking at the European side. I am just
looking at the World part.
6551 MR. PERRON: Yes.
6552 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In that context are you saying that Urban is a
part of World?
6553 MR. PERRON: There are aspects of it that can be, for sure.
6554 On the music list that is in the application there is an artist from
Germany, by the name of Xaver Naidoo, who is half East Indian and half German.
He sings a mixture of traditional East Indian music with Rap elements to it.
6555 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you very much.
6556 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner.
6558 I am going to make sure that you ask all the right questions here.
6559 MR. RHÉAUME: Yes. Mr. Ho and colleagues, I am confused.
6560 In the last exchange with Commissioner Grauer, I believe you indicated
15 per cent Canadian content. Was that for Category 3 music?
6561 MR. HO: First of all, let me clarify.
6562 With the original format that we have, just going strictly by the policy
definition here, for Category 3, subcategory 33, format we are talking about 10
per cent Canadian content.
6563 For the ethnic policy as indicated by Madam Chair, really it is Canadian
content of 7 per cent. That is what the policy says.
6564 What we have proposed in our original proposal is 10 per cent across the
board, making everything the same at 10 per cent.
6565 I have also made a further commitment in this hearing to say that I can
go up to 15 per cent across the board and increase that by the time we reach
licence renewal. I have the confidence and the commitment to say at this moment
that we will be able to increase the Canadian content to 35 per cent across the
board, given the format we are having right now.
6566 MR. RHÉAUME: Let's backtrack a bit and go back to a discussion on
whether or not the European Popular World Music program qualifies as ethnic
6567 If it does not, and if the Commission determines that you are not an
ethnic station, therefore you would be licensable as a commercial station, what
are your commitments then to Canadian content in both 75 per cent Category 3,
subcategory 33, and Category 2 as well?
6568 MR. HO: We will shorten the Canadian content requirement. Instead of in
the seventh year being 35 per cent -- I still will say give us a period of time
because this is an area where will still have to grow. But I would say instead
of the seventh year licence renewal time that we will be 35 per cent Canadian
content, we will be faster.
6569 MR. KANE: Excuse me, counsel.
6570 MR. RHÉAUME: I notice that Mr. Kane is just dying to jump in.
6571 MR. KANE: What is important, I think, is to have clarification on your
6572 I think I heard you say that there would be a Category 2 component of
6573 MR. RHÉAUME: Assuming that your music is 75 per cent, as you applied
for, subcategory 33, then I am assuming that the 25 per cent would be Category
6574 MR. KANE: Excuse me. That is a very important clarification.
6575 MR. RHÉAUME: Sure.
6576 MR. KANE: If the ethnic falls away according to Commission determination
-- and we can present submissions on why it should not -- all of the programming
in terms of the category would be Category 3, sub 33. It would all be World Beat
and International music.
6577 MR. RHÉAUME: Mr. Kane, I am just talking about music here.
6578 The issue is if the station is not licensed as ethnic, it would be
licensed as a commercial station. What would be the music composition, the
components, which categories?
6579 I understood it to be 75 per cent Category 33, which would become a
condition of licence, of course.
6580 MR. KANE: As we have explained in the application, the real difference
between the International morning program and afternoon drive home program and
the European Popular World program is simply the ethnic communities to which it
6581 The International music program in the morning and the afternoon is
directed at all ethnic groups. The European and Popular World music program is
directed at European ethnic groups.
6582 The point is that throughout the broadcast day all of the music is in
Category 3, subcategory 33.
6583 As the Commission has indicated in the Public Notice, that was of
assistance to ethnic licensees in terms of helping to describe their
6584 The important point, in my submission, is that should the Commission
determine that it does not satisfy the regulations, not the policy -- and this
is important, Madam Chair. The policy is a guide to the Commission, of course
not a requirement.
6585 If we don't satisfy the regulations with respect to ethnic programming,
then it is a specialty format, Category 3, sub 33.
6586 MR. RHÉAUME: Yes, that was my premise, Mr. Kane.
6587 If the Commission is not satisfied that this is indeed an ethnic
station, are you saying that 100 per cent of the music is Category 33?
6588 MR. KANE: To be precise, Category 3, subcategory 33, correct.
6589 MR. RHÉAUME: Yes.
6590 MR. KANE: Yes.
6591 MR. RHÉAUME: What percentage of that, then, would be Canadian?
6592 MR. KANE: I am sorry, there was a noise, and I did not hear.
6593 MR. RHÉAUME: What percentage of that would be Canadian?
6594 MR. KANE: As Mr. Ho has indicated, at the point of licensing, 15 per
cent. We would give a commitment to the Commission that over the course of the
licence -- to by year 7 at the time of renewal -- it would grow to 35 per
6595 It would exceed the 10 per cent at the day of licensing on the first day
6596 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.
6597 Madam Chair, I think I understand, and there are two more phases --
6598 MR. KANE: Madam Chair, if there is confusion, I have a solution I would
like to propose.
6599 THE CHAIRPERSON: Propose? We do have two more phases, though, as counsel
6600 MR. KANE: I appreciate that.
6601 THE CHAIRPERSON: But certainly go ahead.
6602 MR. KANE: This is not intervention.
6603 We believe that if we were to invite a condition of licence that we
could address the difficulty the Commission is having with the approach we are
6604 If I may have just one moment in terms of the difficulty -- and we do
appreciate the difficulty -- I would submit that in examining our proposal --
and it is different. We acknowledge that it is a little bit different, but it is
consistent with the ethnic policy.
6605 To fully appreciate our approach to it, it is our submission that the
Commission should look at program as having both a spoken word and a musical
6606 As Mr. Ylanen and Mr. Ho have indicated, the musical component in all of
our programming is going to be in a third language.
6607 Where we are somewhat different, but not radically different, is that in
some of our programming the spoken word component is in English, as we have
indicated, to position the third language songs that will be played. It is also
bilingual and it is also third language.
6608 In the bilingual and third language we quite clearly satisfy the
traditional approach to ethnic programming, if I could put it that way.
6609 The conditions of licence that we would invite from the Commission would
be as follows, if I may briefly read them into the record.
6610 It would require Mainstream to provide programming directed to
ethnocultural groups, other than to the Chinese community, in a minimum of five
6611 That would be the conventional type of condition of licence for an
ethnic programming undertaking.
6612 The second would be complementary but also important. Mainstream will
undertake by condition of licence to operate within the specialty format
category 3, subcategory 33, for all programming that is not ethnic as defined in
the radio regulations, or as amended from time to time by the Commission.
6613 Then, to ensure absolutely that we would maintain an ethnic approach to
our programming format, there could be a third condition of licence, that
Mainstream will undertake by condition of licence that the musical programming
in specialty format category 3, subcategory 33, will be in any language that is
specifically directed toward any culturally or racially distinct group, other
than one whose heritage is Aboriginal Canadian, from France or from the British
6614 It is my submission that if you take those three conditions of licence,
you would be ensuring that we are in the spirit and, in my submission, the
letter of an ethnic broadcaster. To the extent that we are not, and if the first
condition fell away, the second and the third would ensure that we were
programming in the musical component in a third language, and it would only be
the oral component -- the spoken word component -- within the programs
which might be, in some instances, English, but also in bilingual and third
6615 Thank you.
6616 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kane.
6618 MR. RHÉAUME: Briefly, Madam Chair.
6619 Mr. Kane, can you file this in writing somehow?
6620 We have two other phases, and I must admit that I do not understand
where you are coming from. So we could have a further discussion in one of the
two other phases.
6621 MR. KANE: I would be pleased to file it in writing.
6622 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.
6623 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
6624 MR. HO: Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Commissioners.
6625 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will take a short recess.
--- Upon recessing at 1650 / Suspension à 1650
--- Upon resuming at 1700 / Reprise à 1700
6626 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.
6627 Madam Secretary...
6628 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.
6629 Next on our agenda is an application by Gary Farmer, on behalf of a
company to be incorporated and to be known as Aboriginal Voices Radio, for a
broadcasting licence to carry on an English and Aboriginal Language Native Type
B FM radio programming undertaking at Vancouver.
6630 The new station would operate on a frequency of 90.9 MHz, with an
effective radiated power of 1,200 watts.
6631 Please go ahead whenever you are ready.
APPLICATION / APPLICATION
6632 MR. KENNEDY: Greetings, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission,
Commission Staff and members of the public.
6633 We are pleased to appear before you today to speak on behalf of
Aboriginal Voices Radio, a non-profit organization owned and operated by
Aboriginal people from all regions of Canada.
6634 Before we begin our opening remarks, we wish to honour and recognize the
Coast Salish people upon whose traditional territory we are permitted to meet
here today. Especially, I have the honour of introducing to the Commissioners
the Chief of the Squamish Nation, who is with us to the far right, Chief Bill
6635 We will now introduce ourselves.
--- Native Language Spoken / langue étrangère parlée
6636 My name is Bob Kennedy. I am a member of the Oneida Nation. I am also a
member of the founding Board of Directors of Aboriginal Voices Radio. I have had
the pleasure and privilege of working as a broadcaster journalist in this
country much of my life.
6637 As well, I am the publisher of Turtle Island Native Network,
6638 MS PIERRE: (Native language spoken.)
6639 My name is Billie Pierre. I am one of the co-founders of Redwire
magazine, which produces a provincial native youth job magazine and a national
uncensored native youth magazine.
6640 Also, we do literacy workshops and issue updates through e-mail.
6641 I am also a radio program producer at CFRO.
6642 MS BUFFALO: (Native language spoken.)
6643 My name is Marilyn Buffalo. I am a member of the Samson Cree Nation. I
have just completed a three-year term as President of the Native Women's
Association of Canada, and I have acted as native affairs advisor at the
University of Alberta and as a policy advisor to the Assembly of First
6644 I have 30 years of community development experience in urban, rural and
northern isolated communities. And I believe strongly in the power of radio to
make an everyday difference in Vancouver area Aboriginal communities.
6645 MR. FARMER: (Native language spoken.)
6646 My name is Gary Farmer. I am the Speaker of the Aboriginal Voices Radio
Board of Directors. I am also an actor and a radio and television producer, and
I am a long-time worker in the development of native broadcast media.
6647 MS REECE: Hi, my name is Cleo Reece. I am a video-maker and a radio
broadcaster at Co-op Radio. I am one of the founders of the Indigenous Media
Arts Group which presents the IMAGeNation Film and Video Festival here every
6648 MS WARD: (Native language spoken.)
6649 Hello. My name is Joy Ward. I am a Cree Métis.
6650 I am a policy consultant with the Health Association of British
Columbia, and I am also a director of the Métis Commission for Children and
6651 MR. DESMARAIS: Hello, my name is Lou Desmarais. I am the Executive
Director of the Vancouver Native Health Society, as well as a co-chair of the
Vancouver Aboriginal Council.
6652 MS RIVERS: (Native language spoken.)
6653 Greetings, everyone. My nickname is Sheryl Rivers, and my two ancestral
names are Seemtenot (ph) and Mulnaydee (ph). I come from the Coast Salish
territory here, along with our Chief from the Squamish Nation. I am a young
entrepreneur -- I want to be young -- doing facilitating and cultural
6654 MS WHITE: You make me nervous, I might add.
6655 (Native language spoken.)
6656 In the highest of honours, I feel privileged to share time with you in
the Coast Salish territory.
6657 My name is Kelly White. I am a broadcaster with CFRO radio. I produce
public affairs programming for Kla-how-ya FM, and I am on the standing Board of
Directors of Co-op Radio. I am pleased to be with you this evening.
6658 MR. KENNEDY: Commissioners, also, if I may, in the audience we have
members of our community, members of our youth supporters, as well as our
Aboriginal women's organizations in the community, and I would like to
acknowledge and say thank you.
6659 Mark MacLeod is with us. He is AVR's Director of Licensing and
Development, and has previously had the privilege of serving as head of national
community radio associations in both Canada and the United States.
6660 John Matthews is our Director of Engineering.
6661 Bob Templeton is President of NewCap Broadcasting, Aboriginal Voices
Radio's corporate associate.
6662 I would now like to ask Gary to begin our opening remarks.
6663 MR. FARMER: Bonjour. Good afternoon. Members of the Commission, we are
pleased to be here in front of you once again. We appear today to talk about the
need for a new radio service in Vancouver and to outline our proposal to meet
6664 In our presentation we will highlight three themes. First, there are
urgent needs in the Vancouver urban community, and there is tremendous community
demand for an Aboriginal radio service.
6665 Second, we will highlight our carefully designed programming plans for a
radio service to fulfil this community need.
6666 Third, we will describe our financial and human resources that we will
use to launch our successful operation in Vancouver, including how we will
develop local programming.
6667 With the Commission's approval, Vancouver will finally get a new
Aboriginal voice radio service, with music, news and discussion, where
Aboriginal voices can be heard 24 hours a day.
6668 MS WHITE: Members of the Commission, Vancouver is home to the third
largest Aboriginal population, which we celebrate. The station we propose will
be a first radio service for Vancouver's estimated 100,000 urban Aboriginal
peoples. It will be the first connection for many non-native Vancouver listeners
to Aboriginal language and culture, and an introduction to their native
6669 Vancouver is a gathering place for Aboriginal people from many regions
and backgrounds. Aboriginal people are a vital part of Vancouver city's cultural
and civic life. The population of Vancouver is growing quickly and its
Aboriginal community is growing even faster.
6670 The Aboriginal population in Vancouver, while young, like any urban
youth culture, has tremendous energy.
6671 The Commission will see this in the Vancouver members of the AVR's
presentation team and in next week's supporting interventions. Vancouver has a
broad urban international mix, including the large Latin American Aboriginal
6672 Vancouver has many diverse cultural aspects, but Vancouver does not have
an Aboriginal radio station.
6673 The limited native radio hours available for broadcast in Vancouver are
almost entirely on the non-profit community radio station, Co-op Radio. I am a
Board member at Co-op and a producer for Kla-how-ya FM, which airs on CFRO 102.7
6674 Unfortunately, a shortage of Aboriginal programming is common in major
cities across our unceded territories. This situation exists despite the
expressed interest of both native and non-native urban listeners. There are
dozens of radio services received in the Vancouver market, yet none is dedicated
to the reflection of the Aboriginal culture.
6675 Aboriginal talent, musicians and artists, are often effectively shut out
of the Canadian airwaves. For AVR, the application that we envision here --
vision without action is merely a dream. Vision with action can change the
world. Action without vision just passes the time.
6676 In the highest of honours, we invite you as the Commissioners of this
seat to create AVR's partnership with broadcasting a reality. May the forces be
with you in the highest of honours. The privilege is yours to support AVR's
application, and I thank you in the highest of honours. (Native language
6677 MS WARD: AVR has used market research, focus groups and broad community
consultation to identify the expressed needs of urban Aboriginal communities.
That research forms the foundation for our programming and business plans.
6678 AVR's market research in major cities across Canada has shown that 9 in
10 Canadians believe there is a need for a national Aboriginal radio
6679 In Vancouver 95 per cent of those surveyed agreed that there is a need
for an Aboriginal radio station here, and they support the goals AVR has set out
for its service.
6680 In keeping with our traditions, the proposed AVR service was presented
to the Vancouver community to ensure it was wanted and to shape it to best fit
the community needs in Vancouver. The positive response was overwhelming.
6681 Support has come from many individuals and organizations. Energetic
support for a new Aboriginal radio service has swept through Vancouver area
native communities. AVR's support in Vancouver is comprehensive and spirited,
which bodes very well for the station's future.
6682 We have seen a wide variety of reports from various levels of government
over the last three decades, including the comprehensive Royal Commission
report. The reports have detailed the loss in Canadian culture due to the
absence of Aboriginal media. The Royal Commission report also set out the
expected benefits for both Aboriginal Canadians and the general public from the
development of Aboriginal media.
6683 The Assembly of First Nations, the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples, and
all of the major Aboriginal organizations support our effort to establish
Aboriginal radio services in Canadian urban centres. The Government of Canada
has prioritized improved communications as the key to the successful resolution
of outstanding issues between native and non-native peoples.
6684 MR. DESMARAIS: The federal government, in partnership with Aboriginal
leadership, has recognized the magnitude of the urban crisis here. A number of
major joint initiatives are under way, with a focus on development and
supporting healthier urban Aboriginal communities.
6685 Communication is a vital component of these new initiatives, and free
and accessible radio is a key to restoring culture. Radio can support the good
work of Aboriginal organizations in community health, education, language and
6686 While Aboriginal people in Vancouver have expressed a strong interest in
the new station, our market survey shows an overwhelmingly favourable response
beyond the native community. Our programming includes and welcomes all people.
It will be an offering to all the people of Vancouver.
6687 Think of AVR as a radio service "of" Aboriginal people, "for" all
6688 Members of the Commission, urban Aboriginal people are in the process of
restoring and reclaiming our communities through personal and collective healing
journeys. Radio respects oral culture and brings Aboriginal people into the
discourse that will shape the future of all our lives. Radio also taps into an
Aboriginal tradition of sharing the wealth of indigenous knowledge, culture and
6689 Approve our new radio service in Vancouver, and we can reach out to
promote efforts in the struggle for healthier communities.
6690 Approve our new radio service in Vancouver, and we can build a better
understanding between Aboriginal people and all Canadians.
6691 And, Commissioners, approve our new radio service in Vancouver, and we
can promote positive Aboriginal role models, especially to our young people.
6692 MS BUFFALO: Commissioners, understand our national vision and you will
understand the critical role our Vancouver radio service will play in it.
6693 We envision a full 24-hour national network. It will deliver national
and local programming with an Aboriginal perspective. The national programming
schedule will include contributions from Aboriginal people in Vancouver and
6694 Vancouver-based programming will include locally produced segments, such
as special event programming on National Aboriginal Day or Louis Riel Day being
carried over the national network. This experience will cultivate the local
talent and organization needed to develop consistent high quality, weekly and
daily local Vancouver programming.
6695 We will aggressively introduce more local programming originating in
Vancouver. However, this depends on how quickly resources become available. This
cautious approach will ensure a financially stable vehicle for future local
programming, while at the same time ensuring that local programming is under
local control and responsive to the needs of its audience.
6696 We have promised only the level of local control programming that we are
sure we can deliver from day one. Local programming will be geared up over the
course of the licence period as resources become available, with a goal of 15 to
30 hours of local content by the end of the first licence period.
6697 Our Vancouver Media Advisory Circle will provide local editorial and
programming guidance. This will ensure that our national programming is
responsive to Vancouver needs.
6698 The resources that the community brings to bear will inform our plan. We
do not underestimate the challenge of launching the national schedule. We want
to take on that task first and launch an ambitious schedule of local programming
next. We will deliver high quality programming by taking on national and local
programming efforts, each in turn.
6699 How quickly will we introduce a greater local schedule? This will be a
function of how much funding AVR will gain from NewCap application decisions in
Calgary and Vancouver. Without the benefits that NewCap has offered, AVR will
still work toward our plans for local programming roll-out and network
expansion, but our growth in these areas may take longer.
6700 MS RIVERS: AVR programming will reflect the Aboriginal experience across
Canada. Newscasts, public affairs and talk shows will address our needs,
interests and concerns.
6701 Vancouver's Aboriginal community includes many languages and cultures.
AVR programming will include many of Canada's 53 native languages, as well as
French, Spanish and other languages.
6702 Many Aboriginal languages and cultures remain in great danger of
extinction. AVR programming will support the preservation of Aboriginal
languages in this emergency situation. Every program will support and promote
Aboriginal cultures and traditions.
6703 The network programming schedule will include full Aboriginal news
reports, national phone-in programs, a women's round table discussion, as well
as focus programs on language, youth, elders and health.
6704 News assignments will focus on events which impact Canada's Aboriginal
communities that have been overlooked and under-reported by other news
6705 AVR will also air spoken word programming which features in-depth
exploration of public or community current affairs.
6706 As resources become available, one to two Vancouver journalists or
producers will be hired to staff a local news bureau, which will provide
enhanced local coverage.
6707 MS REECE: Members of the Commission, AVR music programming will feature
a mix of primarily Canadian and world Aboriginal artists in a broad range of
musical styles. Program hosts will provide informed commentary, information on
the artists presented, and a variety of educational and entertaining Canadian
Aboriginal perspectives on issues of the day.
6708 While the new radio service will bring an Aboriginal world of
programming to Vancouver, the vibrant local community in Vancouver will make
vital contributions to the programming service they hear.
6709 Open-line programs will include the participation of Vancouver
6710 Music requests will allow listeners interactivity by telephone or the
6711 News reports, interviews and other segments from or about Vancouver will
allow elders and youth, and women and men of Vancouver's various nations and
cultures to share their voices.
6712 This new national programming perspective will allow current events and
cultural affairs taking place in other regions of the country to be better
understood in Vancouver without the filter of mainstream media.
6713 Of course, the new service will also provide the opportunity for
Vancouver issues to be aired across the country.
6714 I am a broadcaster and radio programmer, and a former Board member of
Vancouver Co-op Radio. It is the only outlet available to local native people,
and it is all done by loving volunteer labour.
6715 I see this new radio service as a way to participate in the media. We
have many experienced broadcasters and programmers already here, and a wealth of
talent among our young people. We have fostered and encouraged the involvement
of youth in our local programs at Co-op Radio, so we are poised and ready to
take part in this new radio service.
6716 MR. KENNEDY: Members of the Commission, our market research has
demonstrated demand in Vancouver for our proposed service. We took a very
conservative approach in using this demand to forecast how much national
advertising revenue adding Vancouver to the existing network could generate. Our
revenue projections far exceed the modest operating costs.
6717 A network consisting of at least Toronto and Vancouver stations will be
on a sound financial footing, with great potential advertising revenue growth
and less reliance on program underwriting and fundraising.
6718 We have strong support in Vancouver for a pre-launch campaign to offset
all of the station's capital and start-up costs. These costs total less than a
quarter of our current $1 million reserve fund, which was created to cover
unforeseen shortfalls in funding AVR's development.
6719 The Vancouver service is not expensive to establish and operate because
we plan to introduce local programming only later, after network revenues have
expanded and stabilized.
6720 Members of the Commission, AVR has a solid business plan and the
financial and people resources to back it up. AVR is continuing to expand its
Board and recruit additional advisors to have the widest possible depth and
breadth of expertise.
6721 Our legal counsel, Aird and Berlis, and our accounting firm, KPMG, have
specialized experience in broadcasting and Aboriginal business issues. Our
directors and advisory circles come from all across Canada and represent years
of expertise in all areas of broadcasting.
6722 In addition to these resources, AVR seeks the spiritual guidance of our
elders, and the approval of all of our communities.
6723 The AVR radio team has produced and distributed radio shows to native
stations and networks across North America. We have produced concerts, an arts
festival, webcasts, and 24-hour a day special event broadcasting. Three years of
outreach to the community have shaped our vision for an Aboriginal radio
6724 MS PIERRE: The Commission awarded AVR an FM radio licence in Toronto
earlier this year. The Toronto service is proposed to be the flagship station
for the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network. AVR's application for the network
licence was a non-appearing item at the Calgary hearing earlier this month. AVR
is awaiting the decision on an application in Calgary for a local service of the
network, similar to our proposal for Vancouver.
6725 This Vancouver application represents the next step in AVR's plan to
spearhead the rapid development of Aboriginal broadcasting in Canada, especially
in urban centres in southern Canada where Aboriginal voices are seldom heard on
6726 Despite years of supportive CRTC policies, this deplorable situation
exists in contrast to the clearly stated objectives of the Broadcasting Act.
6727 Just as the arrival of the AVRN service in Vancouver will greatly
benefit Vancouver listeners, the launch of the Vancouver service will play a key
role in the accelerated development of the national Aboriginal radio service
right across Canada.
6728 AVRN will not duplicate existing Aboriginal or non-Aboriginal services,
but rather will provide a supplementary and supporting service, complementing
and building on radio services which presently exist in the Canadian
broadcasting system. This will provide support for emerging native broadcasters,
particularly those who are ambitious to provide a full schedule of native
programming but are simply unable to secure the necessary resources.
6729 AVRN will work closely and share programming with these existing native
broadcasters, including the various native radio networks and societies which
operate in northern and rural Canada, as well as other Aboriginal broadcasters
who produce programming for university-based and community radio stations.
6730 MS WARD: Commissioners, Vancouver needs a new Aboriginal radio
6731 We need this voice to overcome the ignorance of our history.
6732 We need this voice to offer positive role models and to balance negative
6733 We need this voice to build greater understanding between Aboriginal
people and other Canadians.
6734 And, most importantly, we need this voice in the struggle for healthy
6735 Members of the Commission, you finally have the opportunity to license a
new and unique Aboriginal radio station in Vancouver. Meegwich et merci.
6736 MR. FARMER: We have highlighted seven key components of our plan for
this programming service:
6737 One, to be the first Vancouver outlet for the broad everyday expression
of Aboriginal voices.
6738 Two, to offer a media venue where native and non-native Canadians in
Vancouver can speak as neighbours.
6739 Three, to be an inclusive radio service for all community voices: women
and men, elders and youth.
6740 Four, to be a means of support for the promotion of Aboriginal language
6741 Five, to provide exposure and promotion for Aboriginal artists and
entrepreneurs in Vancouver.
6742 Six, to operate with respect for the principles of environmental
6743 Seven, to remain a native controlled and operated media not dependent on
6744 MS BUFFALO: Members of the Commission, we have provided all of the
necessary assurance which you need to make a decision in this application
process to license Vancouver's first Aboriginal radio station.
6745 While it is a great loss to the community that no native radio service
has existed in Vancouver before, it is necessary to finally license this new
service now. There may not be another opportunity.
6746 MR. KENNEDY: Commissioners, we have clearly identified demand in
Vancouver for a new urban Aboriginal service, and we have carefully shaped our
programming service to meet this demand.
6747 We have found a passion amongst Aboriginal people in Vancouver to share
their wealth of indigenous knowledge, culture and positive values, yet there is
no full-time Vancouver radio service upon which we might hear their voices.
6748 We have proposed a sustainable business plan that includes sufficient
capital funding, and we have put together an experienced, confident and
6749 We have reached the moment where we can include a Vancouver Aboriginal
radio voice in the Canadian broadcast system. All of the elements are
6750 Commission Members, the time has come for you to approve an Aboriginal
radio voice for Vancouver.
6751 Thank you, Commissioners. We are available to answer your questions.
6752 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I will turn to Commissioner Cardozo to
6753 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair.
6754 First, let me say to Chief Williams and Sheryl Rivers that I want to
thank you on our behalf for your hospitality as we come to your territory to
conduct our deliberations.
6755 This is, indeed, one of the most beautiful territories in the country,
and it explains, along with your hospitality, why your immigration policy of the
last few centuries has been so successful. And, of course, it has been
6756 I am struck by the comment by Mr. Desmarais that it is only now that we
turn to Aboriginal radio, which, as you say, radio respects our culture --
our oral culture.
6757 What I will do is outline the areas that I would like to cover with you
this afternoon, outline a few general comments, and then we will go through the
6758 We will talk about the nature of the service, local programming issues,
the Commission's native broadcasting policy, and your relationship with existing
6759 Then I would like to talk about advertising, your business plan and
audience projections. And then the last issue will be technical and frequency
6760 After that I will ask you to summarize.
6761 Let me make a few general comments first. As you are probably aware, at
a hearing, once we get to the questioning, we usually do the questioning on the
issues where we need more clarification. If there are issues that I don't
discuss in detail, it is not that those are not areas of interest; it is just an
indication that you have covered the area very well. And you probably will find
that I won't be focusing a lot on the need for Aboriginal radio, because I
think, through your application and today, all of you have articulated the need
very, very well.
6762 It will come up through the process, but I am fully aware of the need
that you have outlined and the passion with which you believe that, and if I
don't give you a chance to state that again it is not because I haven't paid
attention to that issue.
6763 Second, this is a competitive process. There is another applicant who is
looking at the frequency. So that is an issue that the Commission has to keep in
6764 Third, feel free to correct me and to educate me, especially when it
comes to Aboriginal issues and perspectives. One likes to think that one knows a
lot, but at hearings we often find that we don't, and we learn a lot. So feel
free to educate and correct me on Aboriginal issues. I would be a little more
cautious when it comes to broadcasting or regulatory issues, unless you are sure
6765 I say that in jest.
6766 The issue of licensing NewCap, which has an application in this hearing,
is a separate issue. I am well aware of the connection between their application
and your application. And that's fine. It is a creative approach. But we are
really bound to consider the two applications separately.
6767 I have one other general comment to make, and that is that we are
really, today, focusing on the Vancouver application. As was mentioned earlier,
the network application was considered at the Calgary hearing a few weeks ago,
and it will be that panel which will rule on that. It is sort of fruitless for
you to try to argue that application, or defend it or promote it at this point,
because it won't be part of that record. Although, having said that, the line is
blurred. There are a lot of issues in this application that relate to the
network. So when we are talking about the network, it will need to be in
relation to the Vancouver part of the network.
6768 I just want to say that I understand the connection, but we need to keep
to the Vancouver part of it.
6769 Let me start by asking about the AFN resolution that was submitted as
part of the record.
6770 I don't know who would like to answer this, but I just wanted from you a
sense of whether you read it as a specific or a general resolution, inasmuch as
it has three parts to it, in terms of what AFN has resolved. One is that they
support an Aboriginal effort to establish a radio service in Toronto. Been
there; done that.
6771 Then they support the effort to establish an Aboriginal radio service in
other Canadian urban centres, which is the application today.
6772 And the third is that they asked the Chiefs Committee on Communications
to support the development of a native radio broadcasting network.
6773 Is it your understanding that in doing this they are supporting AVR in
particular, or the need in a general sense?
6774 MR. KENNEDY: I could, if I may, respond to that, Commissioner.
6775 I had the privilege of appearing at the confederacy of nations, the AFN.
When this resolution was presented I was asked to speak to it, and I had the
honour of doing that.
6776 My Chief, Harry Docksteder (ph), from the Oneida Nation of the Thames,
actually put the resolution forward on our behalf. Chief Lydia Wheatson (ph) of
the Cowichan Nation, here in British Columbia, seconded that motion.
6777 I was presenting the entire picture of what our plan was. I laid out as
clearly as I could, in the short time that I had, AVR's network plan, as well as
the plan to roll out in the communities.
6778 It was my understanding that the Chiefs' support was based on the
information they received, which was based on our presentation to the Commission
and information that we have given to you.
6779 I hope I have answered your question.
6780 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes. Do you know what the status is, in terms of
the Chiefs Committee on Communications addressing the issue?
6781 Is there a subsequent step that will happen?
6782 MR. KENNEDY: I don't speak on behalf of our Chiefs.
6783 I don't know whether Chief would like to speak to it, but my
understanding is that it is a working committee, as are all of the committees
that the AFN has, and it is an ongoing committee. We can certainly undertake to
find more information and provide that to the Commission, if that would be
6784 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And is it your understanding under the new
National Chief, Matthew Coon Come, that the support continues for this
6785 MR. KENNEDY: It is our understanding.
6786 MR. FARMER: Chief Bill Williams has an answer.
6787 CHIEF WILLIAMS: Yes, thank you.
6788 The Chiefs Committee is an ongoing committee that deals with
communications, and there are representatives from right across Canada who want
to ensure that the correct information is given from the Aboriginal point of
view on what we are doing and who we are as a people. And the committee is, as I
said, ongoing, so no matter which National Chief is there -- and at this
point in time it is Chief Matthew Coon Come -- the mandate is ongoing.
6789 MR. FARMER: Marilyn Buffalo, as well, has just met with Chief Matthew
6790 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Please.
6791 MS BUFFALO: Thank you.
6792 I have had the privilege of discussing this matter specifically with
National Chief Matthew Coon Come, and he is in full support of this
6793 I had the privilege of meeting him in Calgary, before the Calgary
application, and he is also -- a letter is en route to the minister
responsible in support of this application here in Vancouver, as well.
6794 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Perhaps I can ask you, are other organizations,
like NWAC and -- I think you mentioned the Congress of Aboriginal
Peoples -- other organizations have backed this process?
6795 MS BUFFALO: Yes. I personally have met with these organizations, and
they are familiar with it and support it.
6796 The Congress of Aboriginal People -- Chief Dwight Dorey (ph) has
filed a letter in support of this initiative. It is, of course, the organization
that represents the off-reserve and urban issues in Canada.
6797 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me ask you why you think now is the time for
an Aboriginal station in Vancouver; not so much as why not, which one might ask.
It may be obvious, but why now? Why hasn't it been before?
6798 MR. FARMER: Maybe I could refer to some of the local participants
6800 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I am wondering why you feel that now is a good
time for this station and why there hasn't been an application in the past.
6801 MS REECE: I think the organizers probably could answer the question of
why there hasn't been one in the past.
6802 From my personal experience, if I look at my involvement with our
Aboriginal Film and Video Festival, why has there not been an Aboriginal Film
and Video Festival here in Vancouver in the past? Why is there not an Aboriginal
news station here?
6803 All of these questions are things that we ourselves ask, but mainly it
comes down to a lack of resources. And this is what we are asking for now. We
feel that we are ready and willing to step into this role, as media broadcasters
throughout Canada, instead of just in our little local areas.
6804 There have been organizations and people working on a national level for
many years, and I think their hard work has paid off. We are seeing now that we
are able to communicate effectively across Canada and throughout the
6805 MR. FARMER: If I could add to that, I believe historically that native
people in Canada have really felt out of touch with things that go on in Canada,
and really didn't feel involved enough to actually ask for a licence. I don't
think native people actually believed that they had the right to participate in
this process. Until we began to participate two or three years ago, there was
very few -- outside of the northern involvement, of course, and that early
stage. But none of them had gone through a licensing process. It was more of a
decision on behalf of the government to empower the north with broadcast; it
wasn't necessarily the people's decision.
6806 I think it is just now that we are realizing that we can participate in
this process, and we need the essence of what radio broadcasting can do in our
communities to move ahead in a good way with Canada.
6807 I am sure that Kelly would have some comments, as well.
6808 MS WHITE: I haven't been at the CRTC, so I am nervous.
6809 THE CHAIRPERSON: Don't worry, we are too.
--- Laughter / Rires
6810 MS WHITE: Wow! Congratulations. I can survive myself, I hope. I hope you
can survive, yourselves, too.
6811 Why now? Having had the opportunity to present to parliamentary
proceedings for 20 years, as well as having had the privilege to present to the
World Assembly at the United Nations since 1988, and Vancouver being the next
international community, it is extremely important and crucial for us to
platform a partnership with the endeavours of communications, so that we can
develop a better partnership in regard to social and economic endeavours, and
respects, of course, for communications to be provided.
6812 On many occasions in the local community, even our neighbours, CEOs and
organizations that provide their business in the Vancouver area from overseas,
as well as within the continent, ask: Where are the First Nations? Where do we
contact the First Nations? Oh, are there First Nations here?
6813 So in the highest of honours, partnership development with Canadian
content with the First Nations provides a great opportunity for us to
partnership this broadcast in the best and the highest of quality for the
creation of a better road for all of the non-native partners that we have in our
very richly diverse city here. To celebrate this radio broadcast would be a
crucial way to proceed with the cleaning of the umbilical cord for
communications from indigenous peoples to the mainstream.
6814 I hope that satisfies your question.
6815 MR. KENNEDY: Commissioner, I would also like to, if I may,
6816 One of the events that is happening in Canada, as you know, is that we
are finding our voice as urban Aboriginal people.
6817 You have asked: Why now? I think the "Why now" is focused on the south,
is focused on the cities, and is focused on urban areas. Many of the people who
have joined us today, not only at the tables but in the audience, are urban
Aboriginal people, and the issues are snowballing. They are exploding.
6818 Joy and Lou Desmarais represent health concerns in the Downtown Eastside
and in one of the large Aboriginal communities.
6819 One of the reasons is because the urban Aboriginal people are finding
their voice, and radio is a natural extension of that.
6820 MR. FARMER: Chief Bill Williams.
6821 CHIEF WILLIAMS: Thank you.
6822 There are two specific reasons why now. One is economics. It is high
time that Aboriginal people stepped forward and stepped out of the fiduciary
responsibility of the Government of Canada. This will give us the opportunity to
take that one step, to be able to show to the general population that we not
only have the right, but we have the capacity, we have the opportunity, and we
also have the people who are trained and able to do it today.
6823 The other reason, unfortunately, is the population. I say unfortunately
because the Aboriginal population is moving away from the reserve-based system,
because the reserve-based system cannot house all of the members of our
community in the reserve-based community.
6824 The good thing about it is, once they do come to the urban areas, such
as Vancouver, which is the third largest city in Canada, this population base
does give rise to the opportunity for more of our members of our community to
attend the school system and get themselves upgraded for better opportunities
than existed on the reserve.
6825 MR. FARMER: Marilyn Buffalo.
6826 MS BUFFALO: Thank you.
6827 Commissioners, I am 50 years old now. My grandson is going on 13 years
old. In five or six years I could be a great-grandmother. That is the nature of
our community and our lifestyle. My mother is only 70 years old.
6828 Our youth need to get up to speed with the rest of the world.
6829 When I started working in community development in northern Alberta and
the Northwest Territories 30 years ago as political staff for Chiefs, we had
telexes and we thought we were doing great.
6830 Our people at that time were not as well organized as they are today.
Now we see people walking down the streets of Vancouver with cellphones, each
one of them talking to other people worldwide, and we have the Internet. We have
fax machines. We are now getting up to speed. Our children are very computer
literate. Whereas we are not as literate in our generation. We never had access
to those types of communications.
6831 About a month or two ago there was approval to have a permanent Forum on
Indigenous Issues at the United Nations. How many of our people across Canada
know that forum actually exists?
6832 It took us 30 years to lobby for that forum, and we now finally have
6833 Many of the elders who pushed to have that at the UN are not even alive
today to celebrate.
6834 So it is time that we use radio as a tool to teach, and to combat
racism, because we raise our children in this urban environment and it is very
dangerous. In order for us to teach and educate non-Aboriginal people, we need
radio as a tool.
6835 It is a start. Thank you.
6836 MR. FARMER: Lou Desmarais.
6837 MR. DESMARAIS: Thank you.
6838 I have a brief comment. In my 20 years or so of working as a
professional person on behalf of my people in a leadership role with service
organizations, it has been my experience, sir, that we only hear from mainstream
media people when it is licence renewal time, unless there is some other extreme
controversy where they can't not talk to us.
6839 In between those times they either misrepresent us or, largely, ignore
6840 So I think what this opportunity gives us is a chance to get away from
that. Thank you very much.
6841 MR. FARMER: Sheryl has a comment.
6842 MS RIVERS: I would like to speak on the importance of having this today
as a cultural aspect. We have always had the gift of oral tradition, handing
down stories from generation to generation, and with this being able to be
broadcast over the radio --
6843 In our own communities we are losing a lot of our knowledge. Our elders
are all passing on. With the importance of the radio, we would be able to carry
that forward and continue that storytelling in today's modern ways and
6844 It would also benefit all of the people who have moved down into the
urban city of Vancouver from many different nations, not only in B.C., but all
over Canada. This would be a way where they could still practise and listen to
some of their own songs, dances, stories and traditions, and still practise
their culture in a way that they are not having to be at home in their own
6845 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you for that.
6846 Before I go to the next question, Ms Kelly White, you have mentioned
that this is the first hearing you have been to, and I want to explain to you
and others who come to a hearing for the first time that from here on the
questions get a little more technical and maybe more boring, but the reason we
need to go through that is because, at the end of the day, there are scarce
frequencies, people compete for them, and our job is to make sure that the
people who are accorded the licence have a good business plan, are going to
serve people, are responding to a need, and will stave the course for the time
they are licensed.
6847 We do this with all of the applicants. Some people think we do this just
to bore them to tears, but we actually have fun doing this, I assure you.
6848 I don't know whether I should direct most of my questions to Mr. Farmer
or Mr. Kennedy. I will just ask them, and you can choose who answers.
6849 Do you see this as a Vancouver station or a Toronto station?
6850 MR. KENNEDY: We are creating the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network. We
have a Toronto licence now, which would be the flagship to kickstart the
network. But, in fact, we see the signal that would provide a radio service here
in Vancouver, in the end, of course, would be a more comprehensive Vancouver
station than it would be in the first case.
6851 Local programming: Of course, we intend to have an aggressive plan
toward local programming.
6852 In fact, we are creating an Aboriginal Voices Radio Network first,
seeking your approval for licences in the cities so that we can have that
network from coast to coast to coast.
6853 But, in fact, the programming that comes out of here will be Vancouver
programming, combined with what we produce in Toronto.
6854 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: As I understand it, it will be largely a repeater,
or only a repeater.
6855 MR. KENNEDY: In the beginning it will be a repeater. Our long-term plan
is that within the term of the licence we intend to take, as I said, an
aggressive approach to having local programming, depending on resources of
course. That is a key thing that we need to address. But we believe that the
target is, within the licence period, to be pretty much a Vancouver radio
station, in terms of morning drive and afternoon drive, in those traditional
times. That is the target we have within the licence period.
6856 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That is in the long run; right?
6857 MR. KENNEDY: Reality dictates that it is in the long run.
6858 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let's just take the first year. You are planning
in Toronto to be launched sometime next year?
6859 MR. KENNEDY: Within the time that you have allotted to us.
6860 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is that June of next year?
6861 MR. FARMER: It is June 2001, yes.
6862 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And if you were to get the licence here and
launch, say, in the fall, or at about the same time, in that first year it would
be a Toronto signal that would be repeated here; correct?
6863 MR. FARMER: That's correct, yes. Except for the original programming
that we are promising, yes.
6864 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. I will come to that in a second.
6865 Would it be the same time? If you are doing "drive radio" in Toronto,
you would have to be up at three in the morning to listen to "drive radio"
6866 Would there be one feed, or would it be staggered across time zones?
Would it be repeated across time zones, or delayed repeated?
6867 MR. KENNEDY: All of those are options, Commissioner. Technology allows
us today to do a number of things that we haven't been able to do in radio. It
is obviously quite the challenge to anyone who is operating a network, whether
it is CBC or others who have had that in the past.
6868 We obviously want to provide a service to the audience, so we are
looking at those options.
6869 We do have the option of going -- say, for example, that we are
doing a six to nine traditional drive-time show. Then, of course, it would be
three to six in Vancouver.
6870 The other option is, of course, to do a staggered process to relate to
the east coast, which is advanced, and to do the reverse stagger in terms of the
6871 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So technologically it is simple enough to run your
six to nine Toronto at six to nine in Vancouver.
6872 MR. KENNEDY: Yes.
6873 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You wouldn't have to run it at the
6874 MR. KENNEDY: Technologically, the other challenge you face, of course,
is updating. And of course the news part of it would have to be timely and
relevant, and of course we would have an actual presence here in B.C. to do
that. It would probably mean that I would have to get up at three in the
morning, but that would be okay.
6875 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Mr. Farmer, in terms of local programming in the
first year, what would be the local component? The Vancouver component.
6876 MR. FARMER: The Vancouver component consists of the commitment we have
made in the application, which is about two hours and fifty-five minutes per
6877 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is that the sort of minute and a half that is
6878 MR. FARMER: Yes. I think it is a 12 or 15-minute segment that is
repeated several times.
6879 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Would that get repeated only here in
6880 Would that be aired only in Vancouver, or wherever AVR is?
6881 MR. FARMER: It would be repeated wherever AVR is, of course, and it
wouldn't be an only-Vancouver service.
6882 MR. KENNEDY: There is another option, as well, Commissioner. It would be
my understanding that, in fact, the technology would allow us in our clock to
program that Vancouver local commitment at the same time we are programming a
comparable Toronto commitment, because of its events and calendar nature.
6883 Mind you, some of the materials out of the Vancouver one would be of
interest to Toronto, but I don't believe it would be parallel.
6884 MR. FARMER: The thing I might mention, just as an aside, is that right
now I am producing a television show that has a host who is from British
Columbia, and we are producing it out of the Toronto market. Our communities are
so intertwined that half of the community in Toronto is from British Columbia
and half of the community here in Vancouver is from Toronto. We are really quite
related no matter where we are in this country, and I don't think it is going to
be an issue about what is Toronto, or what is Vancouver, or what is Calgary. I
think it is our community, and we are very close. Whether we are on one side of
the country or not, we are very close.
6885 There is no system -- no people in this country who have been as
networked as indigenous people, whether through the friendships in our system or
through the Assembly of First Nations or through the Métis organizations that
are represented right across this country.
6886 We have had a long time to dwell on networking. We are very good at it.
These issues around when it is going to play, and this and that, I think are
really irrelevant in the end, but I understand your concern.
6887 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But at the same time Aboriginal peoples have had
very, very long histories in different regions of the country, and I am
wondering to what extent the people in this part will feel that they are getting
enough information that is really about their history, their heritage, and the
issues that are developing here.
6888 MR. FARMER: You have to understand the indigenous community -- or
the Aboriginal community. They won't drop a licence here, and this community
would not allow us to not give the kind of information that they need, with the
system that we have in place, with the advisory circles based in Vancouver. They
are going to put a lot of pressure on us to make sure that they get their
quality and the amount of programming that is going to be of interest to
6889 So I don't think that with the advisory circle system it is going to be
an issue at all, because they are going to pressure us to make sure that we get
the programming that they need on the air.
6890 I know we will react to that, because Vancouver and Toronto are
extremely -- especially the native communities -- are extremely well
linked. So I don't find that to be an issue.
6891 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Were you about to add something?
6892 MR. MacLEOD: Yes. Commissioner Cardozo, I would like to offer a
6893 I think it is important that we realize that when we talk about local
programming in the context of the two and a half hours, it has to do with the
CRTC's definition of what qualifies as local programming and what doesn't
6894 In fact, the service that will be available, that will be the identical
service. Both Toronto and Vancouver will have programming from Vancouver and
programming from Toronto, as well as programming from New Brunswick and from
Nova Scotia. So the same programming will be heard in both markets, but it won't
be as much of a Toronto service being heard in Vancouver as perhaps you might be
led to believe by thinking that the local programming is only two and a half
6895 It so happens that the two and a half hours we are talking about is
programming that will be heard in Vancouver only, not in Toronto. That is the
only portion of the programming that we are committing in our licence to be
different from one market to the other.
6896 It has to do with, when we filled in the application, we put in two and
a half hours of local programming, because it is the only thing that qualified
6897 But, clearly, there will be local Vancouver programming that is heard in
Toronto and in Vancouver.
6898 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And will somebody or some mechanism be flicking a
switch so that that local two and a half hours is only aired in Vancouver, and
then Toronto will have its local at that same time, and Eskasoni, down the road,
would have its own?
6899 MR. MacLEOD: Yes. Technically that is a simple matter. As we mentioned
in our presentation -- and I think it is clear in our application --
the local content will include open line programs, will include a musical
request, will include news reports arising out of Vancouver, will include
discussions that phone participants in Vancouver will be involved in, round
6900 There will be a tremendous amount of participation from Vancouver in
this programming service. It simply will be the same service heard in both
markets, and ultimately the production happens in Toronto at a centre and is put
up and made available to anybody who wants to pick up that signal.
6901 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How would the phone-in show work?
6902 Because that wouldn't be locally based, would it? Would it be a national
6903 MR. MacLEOD: Excuse me. Could you repeat the question, please?
6904 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The phone-in show that you have talked about,
would there be a local one in Vancouver, or are you talking about a national
6905 MR. MacLEOD: No, this would be a national phone-in show. Again, as we
pointed out at the hearing in Calgary, we have had a great deal of interest in
our national service, once it is licensed, to be carried in Nova Scotia, New
Brunswick -- wherever existing native or other broadcasters want to carry
portions of the programming.
6906 So wherever the signal is heard, the 800 number will be given out and
people will be phoning in.
6907 So, in a sense, we are not certain how widely across Canada, outside our
own licensed stations, this program will be heard, but we have a
6908 As you might imagine -- I mean it is intuitive -- there would
be tremendous interest in that type of a show by any existing native
broadcaster. To tie into a national phone-in show, that would be of great
interest, of course.
6909 But, I think, to specifically answer your question, there will simply be
one 800 number that anybody will phone from anywhere.
6910 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: One of the reasons we have this requirement for
local programming is that if a broadcaster is deemed to be a local
6911 Let me put it the other way around. If a broadcaster wants to be able to
sell advertising in a market, they ought to return something to that market,
namely, programming from that market, so that market feels a connection to that
station. That is one of the main reasons we are focusing on the issue of
6912 Do you see that happening? Does that local market, in this case
Vancouver, get a return in programming for the advertising that you
6913 MR. MacLEOD: The traditional model that the Commission uses or that the
broadcast industry uses -- that commercial broadcasters use -- doesn't
really apply in this case. We are not planning on doing any local advertising,
for one thing.
6914 But again, in a sense, this whole enterprise, every minute, is a public
service enterprise. It is not like there are portions of the programming that we
are putting aside so that then we can carry out our commercial endeavours in the
other hours; the whole thing is a public service, non-profit.
6915 I think we promised in our application that at such time as we thought
that local advertising would be an important function of our business plan, we
would come back to the Commission and ask for approval for that. But right now
our advertising revenues are based upon local sales in Toronto, and national ads
on top of that that would be heard on the network.
6916 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Then having a local presence helps in terms of
being able to sell national sales. But if you were only based in Toronto, you
wouldn't be able to make the case for national ad sales.
6917 MR. MacLEOD: It is entirely possible, and we hope that companies based
in Vancouver would advertise on the network, but it will not be a local sale. We
will be asking them to advertise on a national Aboriginal radio service. It is
not our intention to have local sales people selling in local markets at this
6918 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Mr. Farmer, the advertising issue aside, do you
feel that in the case of this application we shouldn't be too obsessed about
6919 We have rules and regulations, and every day of the week people ask us
for exceptions. I am not saying I am granting you one, but I am just
6920 It sounds like you feel that we haven't quite got it right when it comes
to Aboriginal radio, that local programming isn't as important as it might be in
6921 MR. FARMER: No. I just think that our national focus on the programming
based out of Toronto is going to benefit, and in terms of a national talk-radio
program, it is going to have participation from everyone who is listening to the
signal, which would include Vancouver, Toronto, New Brunswick, and wherever else
our signal is accepted. And through the Internet it is going to be into areas
that we don't even know about.
6922 So in terms of the committed local programming of two and a half hours
of original programming that is only for the Vancouver market, yes, of course
that is important, and I assure you that we will participate at every level to
ensure as much local programming as we possibly can.
6923 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. You are planning to have a news bureau in
Vancouver by June of 2001. If you were to be licensed, would you accept a
condition of licence to deliver that?
6924 MR. KENNEDY: Yes.
6925 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Have you got staff or volunteers?
6926 How would this local news bureau run? Would you have staff or
volunteers, or both?
6927 MR. KENNEDY: Yes, we would have both.
6928 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And have you got people lined up as yet?
6929 It is kind of early for 2003, but --
6930 MR. KENNEDY: We know that the talent pool is here.
6931 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And a Vancouver studio. Do you have plans for a
Vancouver studio, where you would do programming other than news?
6932 MR. KENNEDY: Yes, we do.
6933 MR. MacLEOD: Commissioner Cardozo, if I could add a comment, because I
think it is important that we realize that there are not applications that
appear before the Commission for national radio networks like the one that has
been proposed, and that the Commission has yet to decide on, nor the type of
local market licence which is being requested in the Vancouver market by our
6934 We realize that you are asked for exceptions on a regular basis. I think
that this is an exceptional licence application, based on a great idea and on an
excellent business plan. It is applied for through the CRTC's policies and
commissions, using the CRTC's application forms, but we realize that there are
some angles and edges that don't fit exactly to the way you are used to
receiving applications. We trust that whatever consideration you make on your
end for that, we have had to mould our application to try to fit the process as
6935 It is unusual. In this country we have had very few radio networks that
have come forward, so we hope that you appreciate the exceptional nature of this
6936 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Could you verify the languages that you will
6937 I understand it will be 94 per cent English, 2 per cent French, 2 per
cent Spanish, and 2 per cent Aboriginal languages. Which Aboriginal languages
are you looking at? And would the local portion be in Aboriginal languages that
are relevant to the Vancouver area, or British Columbia?
6938 MR. KENNEDY: Local programming will, of course, have local Aboriginal
language references, yes.
6939 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you have any thought about which languages you
would be adding to your roster from the Toronto --
6940 MR. FARMER: It will depend, of course, on the person who is operating
the board and what languages they are familiar with.
6941 If they are from the Qualuit (ph), then the Qualuit language will come
incidentally through their broadcast. If they are an Ojibwa speaker, then we
expect the Ojibwa language, and there are Ojibwa people across the nation. It
will be relevant depending on the experience of the broadcaster.
6942 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Maybe you could educate me as to what the major
Aboriginal languages are that are relevant more to this area.
6943 CHIEF WILLIAMS: We have 23 separate and distinct languages in British
Columbia, and the type of language would be the Haida-Gwai, Kwagulth, Titskan,
Carrier, T'suweten, Coast Salish -- there are a varied number. As I say,
there are 23 separate and distinct languages in B.C. alone, of the 53.
6944 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Does anybody want to add any others?
6945 MS REECE: I just wanted to add that there is presently an Aboriginal
language program being broadcast at Co-op Radio that is on every week. It is
called "The Speaker" and it does broadcast in Hulkameelam (ph), which is a Coast
6946 There is a huge population of Cree people from all across Canada who
live here who would be very interested in Cree-language programming.
6947 There is a large population of Dene people, of Ojibwa people, and
various communities from everywhere, all across B.C.
6948 There is a large Haida population, there is a Tsimshian population, and
they have their gatherings throughout the year, and they would absolutely be
happy to have a venue to learn and to teach their language.
6949 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: As you probably know, our native broadcasting
policy requires that there be board membership of the native population of the
regions served. Does your board currently include any people from this
6950 MR. KENNEDY: It currently includes myself. I am a visitor to the
territory, but I have lived here for ten years and consider myself to be a
member of the Aboriginal community here. So there is board representation at the
6951 But we will meet, of course, the policy which states the regional
representation where you are licensed. We will meet that obligation.
6952 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How do you pick the members for the advisory
6953 MR. KENNEDY: In fact, the community is more likely the process to pick
them, but we are working with each community.
6954 I will give you an example, if I may, in Vancouver. There are the First
Nations, of course, including Chief Williams, with whom we have had discussions;
the Vancouver Aboriginal Council, in terms of the urban Aboriginal. There are
the United Native Nations and the Métis. There is the Union of B.C. Indian
Chiefs, the Summit. All of the organizations -- and I have named just a
few -- have processes in place in terms of communication and
6955 It is another form of networking that we are involved with, but the
advisory circle will be for editorial programming, organizational --
6956 We are honoured to have Chief Williams at our table today for a number
of reasons: to respect him, of course, in his territory, but because of his
business acumen, because of the communications barriers that his nation alone
has broken through.
6957 The advisory circle will come from the expertise that is in the
6958 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I would like to turn to the issue of your working
relationship with existing native broadcasters. It is an issue that you have
talked about in your network application, and it applies here too.
6959 I want to refer to one intervention which was opposing your application.
They are not appearing, so I thought I would like to raise it now and ask you
about it. You can respond now, but you also have the time to think about it and
respond in the rebuttal stage if there is anything more you would like to
6960 Essentially, this is a letter from Canada's first native radio, which is
CFNR, signed by Clarence Martin. It is dated October 24.
6961 Are you familiar with the letter?
6962 MR. KENNEDY: Yes, Commissioner.
6963 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me just go through a couple of the things they
have said and get your response.
6964 One of the reasons they are opposing it is that they feel there isn't
enough of a working relationship with Northern Native Broadcasting, of which, I
understand, there are two stations and several repeaters in the province.
6965 What is your response to their view?
6966 MR. KENNEDY: First, I would like to say that I recognize and honour the
work of Clarence and all of those who have gone before him to establish Northern
6967 As a little quick background, Commissioner, I have had the privilege of
serving on behalf of the Government of Canada on the federal liaison team that
worked with Northern Native Broadcasting, so I know the hard work that has gone
into it and I respect the work that they do, and the service, which is, I
believe, in in excess of 50 communities in the north.
6968 The operative word there, of course, is "Northern" Native
6969 It is our intention -- and I have had a discussion recently with
Mr. Martin, as has Marilyn. We both have spoken with Clarence about the
relationship building issue that he raised, and it is our intention to continue
to have discussions with Northern Native Broadcasting, because whatever we do
can only enhance what he is doing. But there is a difference.
6970 What we are doing here is for the people who are in this room today, who
are supporting us here: the urban Aboriginal people, specifically in the south,
who I believe are neglected and who certainly are under-served by the
established organizations, with respect.
6971 I believe that by having this infrastructure and radio in the south,
working with our brothers and sisters in those other organizations, we are going
to have a powerful network.
6972 As an example, at this table you will see the representatives of local
Aboriginal radio: Billie and Kelly --
6973 I am trying to keep track of --
6974 MS WHITE: Women.
6975 MS REECE: Cleo.
6976 MR. KENNEDY: You raise that, and I am glad, Commissioner, that you
raised it. Local Aboriginal radio is driven by women -- our Aboriginal
women. We want to reflect that here.
6977 We also want to reflect that we have a relationship with the
6978 Aboriginal Voices has outreach. That is one of the key things we are
doing, and if I may share with you --
6979 We are in Vancouver and we are here for a licence, but Aboriginal Voices
Radio, in two situations -- when we were in Calgary and when we were here
in B.C. we were approached by communities outside, in this case the Saulteaux
Nation, which is in the far north, asking for some assistance, because they are
not able to get it from the current system. We have offered to assist them.
6980 We did that, as well, in Morely. Ms Cram met Margaret Rider, who was
with us, from the First Nation, the Nakota (ph) Nation people.
6981 So we have an established relationship with the current broadcasters,
and we see that only getting greater.
6982 I hope I have answered your question.
6983 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes, you have answered my question.
6984 Have you allayed the concern that they raise? I don't know.
6985 One of the things that Mr. Martin says is that they would like us not to
approve this application now because: "Northern Native Broadcasting plans to
expand its services south of the Hamelin Line to cover all of British
6986 The question that comes to my mind is: You will be largely at a repeater
from Toronto. Here is the potential -- and it is just the potential --
of a British Columbia-based broadcaster expanding through the rest of the
province. And I am thinking, which one would better serve Vancouver? Which is
closer to Vancouver? Geographically speaking, Terrace and Grenville are
6987 MR. KENNEDY: I understand, as we heard from Mr. Crowfoot in Alberta, as
well, that there are plans and there are intentions to do things. With respect,
the urban Aboriginal community south have heard promises and are not served.
6988 Yes, in fact, ours is a repeater licence. That is why we are here. The
application is clear on that.
6989 However, you also know that we are clear in our business plan to provide
local, and we also are clear in our partnership plan with NewCap in the
provision of $4.2 million, which, if approved, would help accelerate our local
programming. We would have, by far, a much stronger local presence here.
6990 As well, the people at this table bring aboriginal programming with
them, and this would be fed to Toronto, and it would be fed back.
6991 We believe that the urban Aboriginal people in the south have a need,
and now it is urgent. We have heard promises before and, with
6992 I don't believe that Mr. Clarence Martin or Mr. Crowfoot have applied to
you to do this.
6993 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I don't believe so either.
6994 MR. FARMER: I know Bill has some comments as well having worked with
northern native broadcasting. Bill.
6995 MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
6996 One of the things that had to be realized that we as Aboriginal people
have to be viewed not only as separate and distinct individuals, but also people
who have the ability to carry on business in a business-like way. What we have
presented before you is a business plan and what Clarence Martin's issue is, is
that he wants to expand a business and, unfortunately, they are not prepared to
develop that business plan and put it before you.
6997 What I would like to tell you at this point in time is we have a group
of people who are business-minded. There is a business plan in front of you and
we would like you to view the business plan as it should be, separate and
distinct and alone. If northern native broadcasting do wish to expand, they have
been functioning for well over a decade or two and they do now have the
expertise to be able to put forward a business plan to suit their needs.
6998 MR. FARMER: Also, Marilyn Buffalo.
6999 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Please.
7000 MS BUFFALO: I had the opportunity to speak with Mr. Martin this week and
his schedule and my schedule we couldn't connect for some reason. But we did
finally get together and I believe the door is open and I made it very clear to
Mr. Martin that we are not out here to try and take anybody's business away. I
believe that very strongly when you introduce a new product, of which this is in
the Vancouver market, Aboriginal radio, you are always going to have a backup,
and that is the same in anything. It is not just unique to just communications.
It is the same in education and you are always going to have that.
7001 So I believe at some point in the very near future that there is a
possibility that we can sit down with all of these potential partners as well
and we are, of course, of the same blood. But we know we need to discuss these
things behind closed doors with each other first and I believe that can happen
in a very good manner and in the next couple of years even I see it. Mr.
Crowfoot, as well, I have explained to him a couple of times already that we are
open. We want to talk as well.
7002 MR. FARMER: One other thing, Mr. Cardozo, I would like to bring
forth is that for years Aboriginal people haven't had any service. So when they
actually get some upstart service in a small rural community, they are going to
play music that they grew up with and for the most part our culture has been
assimilated away from us and when we get a radio station it becomes a little
juke box and we put on what we have learned. And if we have grown up with
country music, that is what we will put on.
7003 In the case of the Northern Alberta situation that is exactly what they
play. They play country music for the most part. In the case of northern native
broadcasting they have kind of moved more to the kind of rock, they are kind of
a northern rock station for the community up there.
7004 What we are proposing actually is beginning to build someone like Wayne
LeVallee(ph) who is in the audience here today; he is a local musician. His
music doesn't necessarily get played in a northern broadcasting system because
it is native music. They are not playing our people's music. It is in the urban
centres in the south where the explosion of artists and everyone is involved is
where that is all kind of nurturing.
7005 And if Mr. Clarence Martin or Mr. Crowfoot would like to
participate in service, I don't see why we can't have two services in Vancouver
market. It's large enough; there is enough people here. We have how many
services here for the non-Aboriginal people, several. How many services do we
have for the ethnic people; multiple services. We have none. And so I think this
is really kind of a dead issue.
7006 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well --
7007 MR. KENNEDY: Sorry. I know Billie Pierre is anxious to provide a
perspective from youth.
7008 MS. PIERRE: First of all, I think that for native people that is really
important that we have a national radio station in that a lot of the news that
is really important to us, you know, all the communities in Canada don't
necessarily know what is going on with these, in each other's place. But if
there is a national coverage, then there is more communication of issues that
are happening, more current events and then support could be provided for those
people that need it if there is like a crisis situation or anything of that
7009 And I think a provincial one would be good too, but I don't see why both
can't be created. A provincial radio station and a national but I think a
national one may be best to link with all the Canadian --
7010 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And you live in Vancouver.
7011 MS PIERRE: I live in Vancouver. Also Vancouver is inter-tribal. There is
people from everywhere and I am sure they are concerned about what is going on
in their communities.
7012 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So for you living in Vancouver, it wouldn't bother
you for this national service to be coming out of Toronto?
7013 MS BILLIE: No, not at all. I think it is a good. Like if things have to
start and I don't think it will stay that way for long; maybe at first but
things have to be established. Like all the different radio stations in the
different provinces. And also there is a music scene in Vancouver and in urban
scenes. There is hip-hop scenes, there is rap scenes, there is like a lot of
young native performers out there who are starting to need the support so that
they can launch their careers. And I think that having it based in Toronto or in
a big urban setting would be good, would be beneficial for these people.
7014 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Now, when this idea first started and I guess when
we were at the Toronto hearing part of what I recall was that you would have
this national service which would then be available to all existing native
broadcasters like northern native broadcasting or NCI in Manitoba and they could
sort of cut and paste and use bits of your stuff and do the rest of the stuff
that they do themselves. Where is that --
7015 MR. FARMER: That is a wide open --
7016 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is this my imagination?
7017 MR. FARMER: That is going to happen for sure. I think it is because we
are moving so fast. I mean they have had licensing for 23 years up there and
they haven't moved into the major urban centres in the south and we have come
along like the new kid on the block and of course with the support of NewCap we
have been able to move quite fast. In fact, you may be seeing it elsewhere
around the country in the near future within the next years. So it is a brand
new effort. So it is moving really fast and I think that is some of the issues
7018 MR. KENNEDY: I will just be quick.
7019 If we look at what is happening today, northern native broadcasting, I
mean I can only speak on behalf of myself but I also know that the people at
this table have the same situation. When there is a need for southern urban
information at northern native broadcasting, I myself -- they call Lynn
Terbasket who is their mainstay at northern native broadcasting calls and we
provide journalism from our perspective here to them. And we are already doing
it but we are doing it who are individuals who are aware of what is going on and
we share it.
7020 So the network will do that. I mean the cut and paste, as you call it,
it is a two-way cut and paste. But we are already engaged in some --
7021 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But do you see that Vancouver could have that cut
and paste where you might have some from Toronto, some from Terrace.
7022 MR. KENNEDY: Yes.
7023 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What would need to happen for that to happen?
7024 MR. KENNEDY: It can happen. It is the issue of when it can happen and I
believe that becomes a resource issue and we want to aggressively go after it
and we would like to do that. Our goal in terms of Vancouver is 20 to 30 hours
per week of local programming by the end of the first term of license. I think
that is a healthy local content. Regional input would be there as well because
of the connection between northern native broadcasting and it would feed down
here and we would feed it back to Toronto and it would come out of the
7025 MR. FARMER: You have to appreciate that most of the native service is
Canada is not running from midnight on to 6:00 a.m. We are going to provide a
service right there for them that is going to be there that they can pull down
7026 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I have got more questions to go and I am just
wondering if this would be a good time for a short break.
7027 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
7028 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I hear a yes on the Panel.
7029 THE CHAIRPERSON: So we will be back at quarter to seven and hopefully we
will all be going home to our beds tonight, not sleeping in the hearing
--- Upon recessing at 1830 / Suspension à 1830
--- Upon resuming at 1850 / Reprise à 1850
7030 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ready? Whenever you are. If people aren't here, we can
7031 MR. FARMER: I just wanted to announce that Chief Bill Williams had
another previous engagement for 7:00 p.m. so he has to excuse himself.
7032 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Sorry that we were so late today. We had a
terrible time this morning with igniters next door and so we ran a little late
and our apologies for that and I am sorry he had to leave.
7033 MR. KENNEDY: And there is a member who would be coming just after now
because of taking care of business. Thank you.
7034 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is good.
7035 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Let me just complete the questions that I
had with regards to existing native broadcasters.
7036 One of the things we have to deal with in almost all our decisions is
balance, balancing different interests and that is just about everything we do
and every decision and there are various types of interests that are put before
us. I look at the concerns that have been raised by northern native and NCI and
others and I look at your project which is really to reach into urban centres
which have not had Aboriginal broadcasting, and as you say, partly that is
because of the way the government support has been provided has been for
northern and rural areas.
7037 I am wondering to what extent you, as the new kid on the block in terms
of Aboriginal radio, see your role versus them who have really been at it for a
long time. I don't get a sense, and forgive me if this sounds rude, but I don't
get a sense that you feel there is much to learn from them, that you sort of
know what you are doing and they are kind of doing their thing and it is time
for them to catch up with you, the train is leaving the station. Am I off
7038 MR. FARMER: Yes, I think so. I don't think that we are --
7039 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Be frank, please.
--- Laughter / Rires
7040 MR. FARMER: I think you are off base, Commissioner Cardozo, because
northern native broadcasting is the basis of what broadcasting we have had and
radio has existed there. And I have certainly been through the licensing of
APTN, right, when the northern broadcast service was exclusively in the north
and not available in the south.
7041 I went through that whole process of licensing APTN, winning the
license, and that transition still today is a difficult one between north and
south that has been, you know, regionalism is what kills this country and it is
not unbeknownst to befit the native community as well in terms of the power that
broadcasting brings to a community.
7042 So that is going to take some time to work out. I know that the services
and the programming that they have in the north for instance with the Inuit
Tapirisat, some of the programming they have, there is a real interest to get
that broadcaster's languages into southern Canada for their people. And I think
that is the kind of relationship that we will have with all of the northern
broadcasters. They are going to have programming that we are going to tune into
and say, "Boy, that is a great program. Let's get that on our network and let's
get that across the country."
7043 Like I say, they are buying services from providers of music content for
late hours just to provide some service to the community for music programming.
We will be able to provide that void. We will be able to say, "Hey, we are an
all night service that you can consider," and we will attempt to sell them on
that concept so that they will take our service. We believe that their is other
broadcasters that exist in this continent that are capable of supplying service
for them as well late night.
7044 So it is a two-way street and we are going to be looking towards them
for guidance. Once we are licensed we are going, I mean already there is a
relationship between Wawatai(ph) and southern Ontario broadcasters, especially
with language broadcasting because they have been doing language broadcasting.
They are the essence of language broadcasting. They are the ones that are going
to supply us with language broadcasting that they are already producing for
southern -- for their people in the south. We are going to be anxiously pursuing
them to cooperate with us and to work with them to provide service.
7045 But when it comes right down to it though in the south we are just so in
need of the service for some basic issues that we are dealing with in urban
societies that that is all that we can think of right now, right, is to get this
service and get it working for the people. Then let's work at sharing resources
north and south, east and west. We are all a big collective community and we
work together. And I think in my -- I looked at these interventions as business
at hand. I mean somebody moving into the territories, especially east moving
west is very critical.
7046 But we are trying to provide a balance between national and local
programming and we will start out resembling the CBC Radio 2 and end up looking
more like Radio 1 by the end of our first licensing terms. So we want to create
balance too in the broadcasting system too among our own people and we will
actively pursue that.
7047 MR. KENNEDY: Chairman, Commissioner, one question I heard you ask us
which was, we have got it all figured out and we can't learn from it. This is
the inference I took anyway that we have got it all figured out and we can't
learn from them. It's the contrary.
7048 We know the challenges that northern native broadcasting has had. We
know the difficulties they have had and the strength they have now because of
the difficulties they have come through. But I think we have a new day. This is
a new day. This is a new time for Aboriginal people and for Canada in the way
you are doing business with native people and native broadcasting.
7049 We are not here with our hand out asking for a handout. We are not here
asking for government money. We have come to you with a business plan. We have
come to you with a double business plan that fits the contemporary policy of the
government of Canada by having a corporate partner, by responding to the Royal
Commission report, by meeting the Broadcasting Act, by meeting what the
government's policy gathering strength says we all must do.
7050 Canadians have to work together if Aboriginal people are going to be
able to move forward and be self-determining and self-sustaining by having their
own communications. It says that and we have a corporate partner and we don't
have the same business model that northern native broadcasting has, and at the
risk of repeating myself, I do have some personal experience in having worked
with Clarence Martin and before him Ray Jones and knowing some of the challenges
and the benefits of that.
7051 Also I finish because I know Marilyn Buffalo has some things to say too,
and that is we don't want to leave you with the impression, please, that we are
in competition with northern native broadcasting or that we present any kind of
a negative context to what they are doing. I represent what Clarence is doing
and Lynn and other people up there. I know their product, I know the work they
are doing. We want to work with them but it is a new day and it is a different
situation for southern urban Aboriginal people.
7052 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I will come back to you, Ms Buffalo, in a second,
but on the issue of competition, I accept that you may not be in competition
with them. But one way of interpreting the intervention is that they may see you
as being in competition with them the existing incumbent, well not the
incumbent, but the existing native broadcaster in B.C.
7053 MR. KENNEDY: I would think that is a fair inference having read the
letter myself. I can't speak for them. I can't speak for their fears or their
concerns or what it is that motivates them.
7054 But if you look at the letter, I think there are a number of statements
made in there that are not accurate from an urban Aboriginal perspective and the
people here in Vancouver. First both Clarence's letter and the letters we have
received from others says that there is not -- it is almost like they are saying
there is just not a need for this, not a need now. And we heard in Alberta we
are going to get around to doing it some time.
7055 But Billie is the person that I would rely on in terms of information
and what she shared with us. We need a national perspective now in the urban
Aboriginal community. So we are not a threat to northern native broadcasting, we
are complementary. They may see it as competitive but that would be a question
to go to them but I don't think so. I think a regional B.C. network, they are
not asking for a national network license. They are not asking to do what we are
7056 I will give you another example if I may. The T'suweten people, I don't
speak for them, I speak of information I know that has been shared with me by
the people there, they in fact are planning a 17-community radio network for
their peoples and we have an outreach -- Aboriginal Voices Radio -- because we
are in that business and they said, how can we fit in with you and we deal with
the Commission and things like that. How can you help us and how can we fit in.
That is 17 communities and the T'suweten people.
7057 So we know we are going to be complementary and not competitive. I think
the mood we feel in B.C. other than northern native broadcasting is let's work
together. But we have left Clarence with that message, Marilyn has and myself,
and I got the sense that we are going to meet his interests.
7058 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Ms Buffalo.
7059 MS BUFFALO: First of all when you look at Canada and as vast as it is
and the very diverse Aboriginal languages and cultures that we have, and believe
it when I say it, north, south, east and west, we are very, very distinct. I
represent the Cree Nation. Well, we have Cree people that live from British
Columbia all the way into the Innu of Labrador. I speak with the Innu and they
understand me and I understand them. We are just a different dialect but we are
the same linguistic group.
7060 So we have Crees, B.C., Saskatchewan, Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec
and Labrador and if I listen very closely I also can quite understand the
Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia. That is because of my training and my background and
speaking my language.
7061 Now, having said that, we are very, very similar but we are different.
There are many national issues, for instance, as a national leader that I have
had to deal with: issues of family violence, of poverty, police brutality,
Aboriginal policy as it effects our people nationally. That does not
discriminate urban, rural. It just is applied equally to all, and the effect
that it has on a northern people which is different from the southern people and
how do we begin to have these round table discussions.
7062 And just in the area of news alone, can I tell you how lonely and
isolated one can become if you are living in an urban environment in urban
Canada as an Aboriginal Canadian. Because you don't live in the north doesn't
mean that you are not isolated. You can be as equally isolated living in
downtown Ottawa and Vancouver because you don't hear those voices when you are
turning on the television and neither do your children hear these voices.
7063 I will give you another example. I personally got within 24 hours, 20
phone calls from some people I have never met that are very concerned when they
saw our children, and I repeat, our children sniffing gasoline on national
television. What can we as African women, what can we as women from Jamaica do
to help in this crisis. Who do we call? These are issues that are -- I'm sorry,
but they happen. It happened in Tsushushee(ph). It's happening in Alberta and
British Columbia and they are real.
7064 But we are the ones that will come up with the answers and radio is one
vehicle but a very important one that can help to bridge all of us so that we
can communicate, and the network is the only way we can do that. Because these
northern native broadcasters where they are stationed, in Treaty 8 up in
northern Alberta and British Columbia -- I mean into British Columbia and also
NWT, they are regionally based. They don't communicate with each other as well
as they should. They are not networked. I know that from my experience in living
in these communities in the Northwest Territories and northern Alberta. I spent
12 years up there.
7065 So it is very difficult for us as northerners when we live up there to
get news to the south. Our issues in the south are not heard in the north. So it
is very key, and Vancouver is very key to development of that network.
7066 MR. FARMER: Kelly has a comment as well that she wants to express.
7067 MS WHITE: I can't think that far back, I need my notes. Just
--- Laughter / Rires
7068 In celebration of the application here and support of all broadcasters,
we at Co-op Radio nominated northern broadcasting, successfully so, for a
national award. We feel the esteem of all the broadcasters should be celebrated
on the local, provincial and national partnership level.
7069 As a First Nations people, right from the local to the parliamentary to
the United Nations, factors of relationship with our First Nations peoples it
isn't -- our participation here is not to come and divide and conquer. It is not
the way of our peoples to have a division attitude and we celebrate all the
broadcasters. Even though there may be dissention toward the application here,
we would never provide a platform against any other celebrated broadcasters that
7070 Co-op Radio helped northern broadcasting with funding from our station
and we raised that funding for them until they go their own funding. So it is
not the atmosphere for partnership that we are providing here. We are
celebrating an inclusive participation east to west, north to south, rather than
the annihilation of any other broadcasters.
7071 As a member of the National Radio on Campus Association, as well as the
host of the AMARC, the second international indigenous broadcasters gathering
hosted by Co-op Radio, we celebrate the global community as well as the local
community on a daily basis of the professional delivery of the broadcasters. So
just for clarification, we don't approach you as jurors or commissioners to
lessen any of our broadcasters, colleagues, professional abilities.
7072 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Could I just ask you, Ms White, while you have the
microphone if you don't mind, can you tell us about your program on Co-op Radio?
You run a program on Co-op Radio, do you?
7073 MS WHITE: Yes. I provide the weekly public affairs. I service the music,
"When Spirit Whispers." I also approached for the proposal for the First Nations
language of the Coast Salish territory and supported the others. We have seven
First Nations programs. So we like to grow like the economy. We like to --
7074 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How many hours of programming would that be in a
7075 MS WHITE: For a weekly basis the Institute of Indigenous Government
provides education at two hours Monday. The reservation hosts a half hour
monthly. The First Nations Coast Salish program provides a one hour on a monthly
basis for the Coast Salish language learning. The public affairs for Kla-how-ya
FM, which I hostess, is weekly on Thursdays.
7076 There is a hard rock music program for the mainstream hosted by
Wednesday nights "When Spirit Whispers" from midnight until 6:00 a.m. And the
Metis Matters broadcasts on a bi-weekly basis for one hour, and the bi-weekly
partnership that they carry is my co-hostess drama hour and that is also
7077 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So that is the bulk of the Aboriginal programming
in the Vancouver area?
7078 MS WHITE: Yes, it is.
7079 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I understand Mr. Martin has a program on CHMV,
which is the multicultural station.
7080 MS WHITE: I'm sorry. I couldn't hear.
7081 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Mr. Martin has a program on CHMV which is one of
the multicultural stations. So from what I gather that is the bulk of the
Aboriginal programming available in Vancouver.
7082 MS WHITE: Actually I formerly produced a three-hour North, Central and
South America peoples program at CITR out of University of B.C. and celebrate
the partnership also with Simon Fraser with the partnership of the NCRA. We
don't broadcast any more at UBC or SFU.
7083 MR. FARMER: One thing I would like to make note of too just to show you
the amount of work that needs to be done yet. If you look at Ontario
specifically for instance in the Wawatai system, there is approximately 36 radio
stations in that system. There is 136 communities in Ontario; 36 in the north
have some form of radio maybe for eight hours a day and Wawatai services maybe
three hours of original programming a week in the languages.
7084 In southern Canada there is probably eight operational stations. So if
you add the 8 and the 34 that gives you like 42 communities, that is with no
urban exposure at all, 42 communities out of 136 have current electronic media
or radio available in those communities.
7085 That is the effort, that there is like 90 communities in Ontario alone
that have absolutely no access. Unless we can build the kind of economy that we
can with this national system, we are the ones that -- we are going to be able
to assist those ones in the middle from the northern system that has had some
success or some support from the government.
7086 But the south has had nothing, and that centre portion in the country
has absolutely no access and there is no organization there working for them on
behalf of them. That is the void that we are going to fill. It is in our best
interest once we are licensed and operational to outfit every reserve community
with some form of FM receivership so that we can come into the community. As
well, in the local regions where those communities are moving toward for
employment and education, we need to cover those urban areas.
7087 So we have an extreme amount of -- a lot of work to do and our future is
totally laid out for us for the next ten years to radioize native Canada. I
think that is the effort that we are really undertaking here.
7088 The other point I would like to make is that because the northern system
is inclusive for 42 communities or so, there might not be programming there
that is befitting. For instance, there is not a level of information programming
that is directed, let's say, for diabetes which we all face as indigenous
people. Incidents of 50 per cent over the age of 40 years old we
7089 If there isn't a central radio body that is producing programming on a
daily basis that we will be able to do once we get Toronto up, dealing with some
of these hard core issues that we are dealing with, whether it be a teenager's
sexuality, those kinds of programming aren't necessarily going to come from the
north. They are going to come from the south and they are going to come into the
northern communities and that is how we will be able to socialize each other to
some of the contemporary issues that we are facing. That is the only way that I
7090 So dealing with our health issues, it is Aboriginal Voices Radio that is
going to concentrate on 38 per cent spoken word content. It is going
to develop this kind of programming that we can distribute across the country
and that is the value of Aboriginal Voices Radio Network.
7091 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can we move to some other marketing issues?
Audience share, in the August 4th deficiency, page 194 of the record, you have
indicated that you anticipate an audience share of 0.3 to 1.0 from year one
through seven. I am just wondering if that is realistic, optimistic,
7092 MR. FARMER: Yes. Mr. Mark MacLeod has got an answer for you there.
7093 MR. MacLEOD: We had a survey done from Mr. Doering of Peter Doering
Consultants to check and see what kind of a reception we thought that a national
Aboriginal radio service would receive in cities across Canada; 1,500 people
were surveyed in a relatively short period of time in that survey time.
7094 Based on Mr. Doering's experience in taking the responses to very
specific questions, he produced a prediction that we would look at seeing about
a one per cent market share in Vancouver based on the interest in this
market in that part of the survey, which I understand was about, out of the
1,500, about 150 of the responses were in the Vancouver market.
7095 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are you anticipating a share or listenership from
a non-Aboriginal population here?
7096 MR. MacLEOD: Yes. Our experience with native programming that exists,
and there is not that much in urban centres is that there is a fair amount of
interest of non-native listeners. Certainly the market research that we did
through Peter Doering Consultants indicated a widespread interest of non-native
urban population in the type of programming that we were offering.
7097 Of course, I think it was mentioned earlier on in response to one of
your questions that there is a tremendous amount of anecdotal evidence which you
can see it when you look at our table, a lot of that anecdotal evidence right
here, that the interest is incredibly strong. The Commission has received a
number of applications from Aboriginal voices that it has considered.
7098 Clearly in Vancouver the response is totally overwhelming. I mean you
have to be impressed by the level of interest in this application and support
from the diversity of communities that make up this urban centre.
7099 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me ask about revenues. In your revenues you
have projected the national revenues as a portion to the Vancouver market, you
have slated at $90,000 a year from year one through year seven. How do you
calculate that? Would that be sales in Vancouver or sales from Toronto that
somehow you are apportioning to Vancouver?
7100 MR. MacLEOD: The response to that question is that the $90,000 that you
see allocated to the Vancouver operation is simply the portion of national sales
revenue that will be taken to Vancouver to cover the operating costs in
Vancouver. The real prediction of how much of our national -- how our national
sales will be impacted by having a Vancouver station is a different matter than
7101 In fact, our consultation with a number of national sales rep houses has
indicated that we should expect about an additional third increase in
advertising, in national advertising revenue by adding Vancouver to a
Toronto/Vancouver network operation. The calculation of our total national
advertising revenue is in fact based on an increase of about a fifth rather than
a third so we were playing the conservative. The total amount of advertising
over seven years with Toronto and Vancouver both licensed and operating would be
about $350,000 a year.
7102 Again, those same sales rep houses that we consulted with said that we
could expect to generate with a Toronto and Vancouver licensed operation
anywhere between as low as half a million year up to a million and a half a year
in national sales alone. Again, the figure we are using in our business plan is
$350,000 a year with those two stations licensed. So it is a deliberate
7103 COMMISSIONER CORDOZO: I thought it was curious that you would apportion
$90,000 a year throughout the seven year period rather than perhaps undergoing
on a growing basis as you did with the local advertising and fundraising which
is at $15,000 in the first year and works its way up to $35,000 in year seven
which would seem to be what one would expect that you do start low and then have
the opportunity to grow.
7104 MR. MacLEOD: Yes, the figures that you see for fundraising are more
accurate, a portion of the expected revenue to Vancouver. In other words, those
numbers going from $15,000 in the first year to $35,000 in year seven are -- we
have a lot more expertise in our group in the area of fundraising and predicting
what kind of fundraising revenue we can expect because this type of radio, this
non-profit community-type radio has 15 or 20 years of experience in Canada in
major markets in doing fundraising from a somewhat similar audience to what we
expect this station to have.
7105 Whereas there is not a lot of experience in predicting how much
advertising revenue could be generated by a service like that. I mean on a
national Aboriginal radio network how are you going to predict how much ads you
can get. So what you see in setting out for the fundraising are numbers that we,
from our experience, feel very comfortable that those will be attained.
7106 The advertising network revenue as allocated to Vancouver are simply the
amount that we would have to take out of our total national advertising budget
to cover the costs of operating a Vancouver station. The rest of the money above
$90,000 that we would pull in will be used to build the national network in the
two areas that we have outlined, which is to expand our local programming and of
course to expand network stations in other major urban centres across
7107 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Let me ask you a couple of, at least three,
fairly tougher questions on this because I am trying to get as much precision as
possible. As I said at the beginning, one of the reasons we go through this
questioning procedure is that we are charged with apportioning frequencies and
we have to make sure that those frequencies, once given out, are maintained and
people stay in business.
7108 So let me first just ask you based -- like you have provided a certain
amount of information to us in the application. I am wondering if you have any
updates on that in terms of any hard money that you either have in the bank or
have assurances. You have talked about advertising agents, whether you have
national buys, whether you have had discussions, letters, anything that can give
us more assurance that the kind of potential that you have just outlined is on
the way to getting realized.
7109 I understand that, of course, it is easier to do that once you have the
license in hand, but as you know with our process, it is sort of the chicken and
egg thing. If we hand a license to somebody who doesn't have that basis, then
does the radio get launched.
7110 So I wonder if you can give us any more precision, either by companies.
I am well aware of what NewCap has provided to the network flowing from the
Moncton decision, and I am wondering if you have any more precision?
7111 MR. KENNEDY: I wonder if I might briefly because I am not the expert in
this area but I have wanted to make a couple of points.
7112 One, we are engaged in an ongoing fundraising project, which is in fact
we are meeting with First Nations Aboriginal representatives, either community
and business who have expressed -- these parties have expressed an interest, an
excited interest. But as you have said yourself, the reality is we don't have
the approval of either the network license. We don't have Calgary. We don't have
Vancouver. We do have Toronto.
7113 So there is an expressed interest in that and we are confident about a
number of things. If we get those licensing of course the fundraising will come
in hand. As well, if we had the monies that NewCap would provide, certainly we
could see in kind amounts of money coming from the people we have spoken with in
the Aboriginal community.
7114 I don't know if this would be helpful to share with you, one of our
sources of expertise and great knowledge in the area of raising revenues and
advertising is a gentleman who we have a close association with, whose history
is in this area and it is Bob Templeton who sits with us because he is a
partner, but also his level of sales and revenue generation expertise, and I
don't speak for him, but he is here and certainly can shed light on projections
and anticipated amounts we could see if that would be of some use.
7115 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Sure.
7116 MR. TEMPLETON: Commissioner, I am not certain. I was trying to follow,
was it the fund raising or the revenue --
7117 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The fund raising and the advertising revenue, to
what extent there are any specifics, any commitments that you have and that AVR
has in hand. I am aware of the funding that NewCap has made available to date
through the Moncton decision.
7118 As I said earlier, in terms of the NewCap application at this hearing,
it is a separate issue that we are not dealing with here. I don't want you to
pass out, Mr. Templeton, but we haven't approved your application in NewCap as
yet, so we have to pretend like that doesn't exist or may not be approved.
7119 To what extent does AVR have funding sources above and beyond what
NewCap has made fairly clear commitments?
7120 MR. KENNEDY: I think that I wouldn't ask Mr. Templeton to speak on
behalf of that. That is something that Mr. MacLeod would speak to.
7121 What I was suggesting was -- you had a two-part question, I believe, and
advertising generated moneys is what I believe, and Bob has that expertise. So I
was not asking him to speak on perhaps the moneys that are currently
7122 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
7123 MR. TEMPLETON: Commissioner, I can assure the Commission that these
revenue projections with Toronto and Vancouver are very realistic. We consulted
with some experts in the area. I myself, personally, have quite a bit of
experience in national representation. I ran a major national rep shop for a
while about a decade ago.
7124 We spoke with Canadian Broadcast Sales, we spoke with Target Broadcast
Sales, and their expert opinion was that these numbers were very conservative
numbers that we could rely on.
7125 An analogy I can give is that you can't just look at share and try to
project that into revenue, because this is a very unique application. You are
selling kind of an environment. Many corporations are asked to make donations,
and they get a donation and some goodwill and some signage or something, but
that is kind of what they get.
7126 With this kind of sponsorship they get all of that, plus they get
commercial advertising of their products on a national basis -- in this case
Toronto and Vancouver to start. But the numbers are very realistic and they
should not have any problem at all achieving these levels. They are very
7127 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The point you are making about the environment
plus the advertising bang for the buck is something that, evidently, you at
NewCap believe in. What I am asking is: Is it your sense that there are other
potential advertisers out there who share the same approach?
7128 MR. TEMPLETON: My comments, when I was referring to national
advertisers, with this kind of an application, the way it is viewed is, do you
want to associate with this environment?
7129 An analogy is sports broadcasting, as an example, with professional
hockey or baseball teams. If you look at the share and look at the revenue, they
are two different numbers and they don't correlate that much. It is: "I want to
be part of that environment. I want to be part of that."
7130 I think that a lot of the emphasis on the sales approach will be: Do you
want to speak to the Aboriginal community of Canada, versus how many average
quarter-hour shares you are getting.
7131 Either way, whether you look at share or whether you look at the
environment, these numbers are modest, in my opinion.
7132 MR. KENNEDY: Commissioner, if I may, for me it always helps to look at a
practical scenario. If the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network were up and running,
this is an example of a national advertisement that would be a natural for us. I
will give you a recent example.
7133 As you know, the Corbiere decision from the Supreme Court of Canada
kicked in November 20th. Prior to that, a couple of weeks ago -- actually,
I believe, we were appearing before you in Calgary -- Indian and Northern
Affairs Canada, the Government of Canada, launched a national advertising
campaign to reach our target audience, because it has to do with urban
Aboriginal peoples' voting rights in their communities.
7134 We have had conversations with not only Indian Affairs, but the Privy
Council Office, Heritage Canada and others, as well as at the provincial level
and local level. Governments -- I don't speak for them; I am giving you
anecdotal comment here -- are champing at the bit to see a national Aboriginal
urban focused radio where they can target their moneys. Because now,
essentially, it goes to mainstream broadcasters, where our people aren't
necessarily the target audience.
7135 So we know there is practical application for that. I don't know if that
is helpful, but it is an example.
7136 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes, it is.
7137 We are getting to the end and I want to move to the technical issue, the
7138 As you know, Simon Fraser Campus Radio has also applied for 90.9. Have
you considered an alternate frequency for yourself, or for them?
7139 MR. FARMER: Mr. Matthews will answer that.
7140 MR. MATTHEWS: Certainly, we have considered all of the frequencies in
the Vancouver market. We think we have the opportunity to license up to six
applicants at this hearing. We think that 90.9 suits our needs the best, because
we are applying for --
7141 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I'm sorry, could I ask you to speak a little
closer to the microphone?
7142 With six frequencies, I want to make sure I get this answer down.
7143 MR. MATTHEWS: I can run them down to you. We have 88.1, 90.1, 90.9,
92.3, 94.5 and 106.9.
7144 Now, of those six, you have seen two applied for at this hearing, the
94.5, of course, and the 90.9, which has been applied for by Aboriginal Voices
Radio and by Simon Fraser.
7145 We have applied for close to maximum Class B parameters on 90.9, which
gives us coverage of the entire Vancouver CMA; whereas Simon Fraser has applied
at considerably lower parameters. For that reason we believe it would be easier
to find them an alternative frequency, and in fact we looked at 90.1. It looks
like it suits the requirements for duplicating the coverage area that they had
proposed for 90.9.
7146 We would be happy to share all of our findings with their consultant and
provide them with all of the information that we have on that frequency. But it
is not the only alternative frequency to 90.9 that might be suitable for Simon
7147 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And if you were not to be granted 90.9, which of
these others would you be --
7148 MR. MATTHEWS: I would say the second choice would be 106.9 or 107.1.
7149 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Back to the Simon Fraser issue, you are
competing with them. They are providing a local service, which is totally
locally based, or almost totally.
7150 Can I take you back to the issue of local that we talked about many
hours ago and ask why you think yours is a better fit than theirs, if we are to
look at you as competitors for 90.9?
7151 MR. KENNEDY: If I may make a brief comment in answer to that. I first
preface my remarks by saying that Aboriginal people have no intention of seeing
-- I realize that this is a competitive process from your vantage point and your
perspective, and it is in some respects, technically and otherwise.
7152 The Aboriginal community, of course, has a great regard for Co-op Radio
and what these people do in the community. We would like to state that.
Certainly John and others have established relationships with them on behalf of
Aboriginal Voices Radio.
7153 We believe, first and foremost, about our own needs, and we believe the
urban Aboriginal community in Vancouver, first and foremost, should have access
to the best frequency that is available to provide the best coverage area,
because of all the reasons you have heard here today from our people.0
7154 I also believe that Mr. Matthews, who works on our behalf, as well as on
our partner's behalf, works specifically on behalf of AVR to share this
information with you and other broadcasters, specifically, in the best of
intentions of resolving and meeting the interests of all those parties. Our
intention is to do that.
7155 But we think we should have the better frequency that we have put
forward on our own behalf. As John has said, the alternate frequency for them
can meet their needs.
7156 MR. FARMER: Our goal is to provide 20 to 30 hours per week of local
programming by the end of our licence term. As resources become available, of
course, we will start with the weekday morning show and local news, and our
Vancouver media advisors will provide the guidance.
7157 But, of course, with the $4.2 million from NewCap, we will be able to
roll this out much faster and expand the network. That is really the issue.
7158 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You realize that one of the difficulties --
and Billie Pierre was saying earlier: Why not two Aboriginal stations down the
road? It is not clear to us how many of these frequencies are actually workable
or how much people would actually want them. So at the end of the day, given the
competition for frequencies, if there is one in Vancouver, we want to make sure
it is a really good one.
7159 So the difficulty I have with your answer -- and I fully understand
where it is coming from -- is that if we say yes to AVR now and a year down the
road or six months down the road Northern Native comes along and says, "What
about us, too?", and there is not a frequency, then we may not have that
7160 MS PIERRE: I think that a national connection would be the best. A
national communication connection would be the best for all the communities in
7161 MR. KENNEDY: Commissioner, if I may also remind ourselves, with respect
and gratitude, you met Chief Williams today. But we also have support for our
business plan and for what we are planning to do and for what Billie is
suggesting from the United Native Nations, representing urban Aboriginal people,
the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs, the B.C. First Nations Summit. These are
organizations which represent absolutely every First Nation in this province,
who endorse our plan.
7162 The Vancouver Aboriginal Council, the Métis Association of
Vancouver -- the list is overwhelming. I am sure, Commissioners, you have
seen the letters of support, the petitions of support, from both the Aboriginal
and non-aboriginal community.
7163 We believe we have come to you with a good product that has support.
7164 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Back to 90.9, one of the problems, Mr.
Matthews and Mr. Kennedy, is that you said this is the better frequency, but
there is one small little problem. Somebody doesn't want you to have that
7165 As you know, there has been an intervention by CBC, the FM Victoria
signal, which is concerned that that signal would interfere with theirs and that
the only way it would not interfere is if you took it down in power.
7166 What is your response? And at which point is it not the 90.9 that we
have been talking about?
7167 MR. MATTHEWS: In fact, the 90.9 we are talking about here, even at the
reduced parameters that the CBC would prefer, is still considerably more
coverage than is proposed by Simon Fraser.
7168 Now, on the other hand, we have had an ongoing discussion with CBC
regarding the interference issue and we think we are very close to a resolution.
We have developed a test protocol that they have accepted, and we believe that
we will be able to go on the air at the reduced power, and then, by increasing
in stages, prove to the CBC that the interference issue is in fact a
7169 We are talking about two stations which are two channels apart. The
protection ratio contained within the rules is somewhat outdated with regard to
modern radios. So in fact we are confident that if there is any interference
developed to the signal of CBC, we will be able to remedy that interference very
7170 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So you would take it down to 300 watts for a
7171 MR. MATTHEWS: Yes.
7172 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Then, the reason you would up it is to see, bit by
bit, whether it does have interference?
7173 MR. MATTHEWS: If at 300 watts there is interference beyond the protected
contour of the CBC service, we will have a good handle on what interference
might take place when we do increase that power. The CBC has accepted this
7174 We believe that we will be able to get it to full parameters within a
short period. We want to do that to the CBC's satisfaction and to the
satisfaction of Industry Canada.
7175 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: At 300 watts, how much does that cover in terms of
territory? Is it not a lot less than what you had planned?
7176 MR. MATTHEWS: No, it is not a lot less. The relationship between area of
coverage, or distance, and power is not a linear relationship. In fact, you have
to go to something like a 10th of the power at the same height to significantly
reduce the area, and, in fact, at full parameters we were looking at a coverage
area of two million people, of which about 90 per cent were contained within the
three millivolt contour, and by reducing the power to one-quarter, as requested
by the CBC, we would only lose something like 15 to 20 per cent of that
coverage, which is within the three millivolt and within the half millivolt
7177 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So your financial projections, your advertising,
is not affected by this?
7178 MR. MATTHEWS: The business case would still be robust at the lower
7179 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can you tell me why you didn't simply apply for a
7180 I'm sorry, not a repeater licence, but why you didn't apply to have your
Toronto licence amended to simply allow a rebroadcast in this area. Why do you
prefer to have a station based here, especially since, at the starting end, you
are going to be doing re-broad from Toronto?
7181 It is a different question, I guess, that I am jumping to.
7182 MR. MacLEOD: I will try to answer the question.
7183 I think that our intention, right from the beginning, has been that the
service in Vancouver will be more than a straight repeater service, that in fact
local programming will develop as resources become available.
7184 And as you have heard in our presentation today, there is certainly one
way in which that could happen very quickly, and that is, if you choose to
licence NewCap in this licence hearing, we will have a lot of funding available
to immediately execute an increase in local programming.
7185 But, otherwise, as resources become available we will build the local
programming service here.
7186 Our intention always was that there would be different programming on
different stations that we licence in different markets. So we, right off the
top, came out of the gate with that type of licensing strategy.
7187 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me ask you, as a closing summarizing question:
I would like you to summarize your thoughts about why you should be licensed,
keeping in mind at least these two questions that I have in mind. Number one,
does Vancouver need an Aboriginal station now? And I think you have said yes
very clearly. And if yes, what is the best way of going about it? Is it to
licence AVR, or is it to wait for perhaps a subsequent application, or to have
two competing applications, or a joint application between you and others?
7188 What would stand the test of time and last financially?
7189 MR. FARMER: I am sorry, can you repeat --
7190 MR. KENNEDY: Commissioner, maybe I could answer. If I am hearing you
correctly, this is summation time, and we were going to request that we
individually provide you with very brief comments.
7191 It is interesting that your two points are -- well, one anyway. We
were not actually really considering it in the technical terms you are, about
your choice between one or two services.
7192 But if we could do that briefly --
7193 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Sure, go ahead.
7194 MR. KENNEDY: I would like, first, to go to Cleo, and then we will come
back around to myself and then over the other way. If Cleo could start...
7195 MS REECE: Hi. With respect to your question earlier about local
broadcasting resources, that unquestionably is here. We have that. We have the
7196 If you look at Kelly, for instance, she is our longest running radio
producer in this province.
7197 I have been doing my show, "Hastings Reserve", for five and a half
years, and similarly so has Ron Barber over at Co-op Radio -- two
7198 We also have a pool of rising young talent. We have Billie right in
front of us here. If you look around, you will see --
7199 Just to let you know, our audience today included a lot of local talent,
be they performers or writers, actors and so on.
7200 We are a close-knit community of artistic people, encompassing all of
the different artistic disciplines, but we all share a passion for putting our
work out there. Whether it is on radio or video, television or whatever, we are
going to use those resources if they are available to us, and they are.
7201 The other thing I would like to say is that with the success of our
Aboriginal Film and Video Festival, and with the longstanding programming that
has been going on through Vancouver Co-operative Radio, the five of them that
Kelly named earlier, five Aboriginal programs -- or six of them -- we
feel that we have developed an audience which increases year by year, which is
informed, critical and appreciative of the work we are doing.
7202 It was also said that we have upwards of 100,000 native people living in
Vancouver in the lower mainland, which is a huge audience. But it also involves
others than an Aboriginal audience. We have a lot of non-Aboriginal people who
are interested in what we have to say, and the kind of talent that we have. They
are very interested in hearing about it.
7203 I would like to leave you with those thoughts, and to let you know that,
yes, we do have resources here within our people resources. Thank you.
7204 MS WARD: Hi. I would like to speak to this both personally as a Cree
Métis grandmother and also professionally as a health care consultant and a
youth and child fatality investigator for this province.
7205 The health of our people in this province, as you know, is the worst in
this country. In fact, in Vancouver, and most particularly the Downtown
Eastside, it is clearly visible and very upsetting.
7206 We know -- and I will bang the drum again and say what we all know --
that there is a longstanding need for healing, a need for greater understanding
of our history and what has happened to us, and better communication, not only
between ourselves as Aboriginal peoples, but between the two worlds, both native
7207 I speak to this, again, personally because I am a Métis woman, so I walk
in both worlds, both native and non-native, personally and professionally.
7208 An elder once told me that a way to make the world better is to start
building bridges, to start with myself, to become a bridge between those two
worlds and to share the information that I have from being raised in a
non-native family, but also to help build bridges between the two worlds, and,
again, between ourselves: rural, urban, status, non-status, Métis, Innuit.
7209 Traditionally we are an oral society. This radio station would have a
ripple effect. It would start here in the urban area of Vancouver, but,
undoubtedly, it would ripple out to our rural communities, to our children and
to our elders; again building that bridge between them all.
7210 It would be a vehicle to improve our health and our wellness.
7211 We talked about balance. Someone questioned it, and said that we need
some balance. This would be a way to improve that balance.
7212 Does Vancouver need an Aboriginal radio station? Without a doubt.
7213 Someone said that if we are going to have one -- I think it was you,
Commissioner Cardozo -- it needs to be a really good one. I believe we can
make it a really good one. Meegwich.
7214 MR. DEMARAIS: I want to tell you a bit about the community that I am
here representing today, and the community in which I work. If you ever come
across the postal code V6A, you will know that to be the poorest community in
Canada. That has been the case for at least the 10 years I have been involved in
trying to provide some health services to people in the Downtown Eastside.
7215 A tremendous number of those people happen to be First Nations people.
So we have a high concentration of First Nations people within Canada's poorest
7216 Sometimes when we are trying to talk to people out in the greater world,
it is almost like we have been totally isolated within that community; totally
isolated by the poverty in which we have to live.
7217 So I see this opportunity as finally a way in which we can, with more
depth than we are currently allowed, express what is actually happening, to get
that across, and also to use those opportunities that would be availed to us
around the issues of some of the more explosive issues for our people.
7218 We have people dying daily of HIV-related disease. Tuberculosis is at an
all-time high in the Downtown Eastside, to the point where the public health
authorities are now suggesting that everyone who lives down there not get a skin
test, but a chest X-ray. We have put our entire staff through that. We know of
other organizations down there that have done that, and so on and so forth.
7219 I think if we had a way of reaching our people, we could perhaps assist
in the educational process that is so needed. Thank you very much.
7220 MS RIVERS: Good evening. Thank you for acknowledging earlier being in
the traditional Coast Salish territory. Part of our Chiawial (ph), our
Aboriginal law, that we always practise as First Nations people, is to respect
and honour the people of the area. So I would like to thank you for that.
7221 As was shared, not only is it important to have this station for the
Aboriginal people, but also in Vancouver there are many non-native people who
are very interested in First Nations culture, especially with college and
university students who may be doing their studies or theses on First Nations
people in the B.C. area, or throughout Canada. This would also help educate them
on who we are and our history.
7222 There are also foster and adoptive parents out there of Aboriginal
children. I have had the experience of meeting some, and have some co-workers
who do some work, travelling throughout B.C., educating the children who are
with non-native foster parents. They want to keep that step and that door open
for the children.
7223 Not only that, but there are many cultures from around the world that
want to learn more about the First Nations culture and about being on our
territory. What better way to share our pride, humour, history and respect,
while hosting many nationalities of the world as well?
7224 I would like to close with something that came to mind from one of my
classes that I did in my First Nations studies:
With my identity I move forward; With my society I live on;
With my culture I respect.
7225 Hosiem (native language spoken).
7226 MS WHITE: It is hard to follow good speakers like that.
7227 In celebration of our broadcasters for the development of a partnership
with Gary Farmer, we don't support him because he is the cutest guy in the east,
or the best movie star, or the one we wait for on television programming; we
support him because he and his colleagues, and partners, have broken ground on
various levels of communications for indigenous peoples, and for the respect of
our partners who reside in our territories.
7228 Since being approached by Mr. Farmer, in a very respectful attitude of
the territories and boundaries of the requirement for dialogue to the mainstream
to best address the information deemed necessary to be good partners in our
beautiful country, we canvassed throughout British Columbia, Alberta and
Saskatchewan, from Kla-how-ya FM, to platform our partnership with human rights
issues, education issues, family issues, right down to social fields of the arts
7229 There was great celebration of this endeavour in years back. Even though
we are slowly, gradually, taking one tiny baby step at a time, having been
approached by us, we learned that one-third of the country's native peoples
reside within British Columbia.
7230 To support AVR's application would enhance the ability of the national
mainstream listenership to celebrate our rounding of the decade of indigenous
people's, whom we ourselves at Kla-how-ya FM implemented through the United
7231 Our youth programs, as well as elders, have been sponsored to Central
America for our youth programmers. Our elderly programmers have been provided
the visibility to teach our language, to combat, in essence, the racism and lack
of understanding toward our people.
7232 We also maintain a 24-year agreement for peace education with Kla-how-ya
FM and Co-op Radio; with a 24-year agreement with the 12 Asia-Pacific countries,
which, by us teachers, we agreed to combat racism and war, which is very crucial
for us as broadcasters, to lend our diversity of national native broadcasters to
a partnership with the mainstream public.
7233 My belief as a broadcaster -- I would like to share my vision
statement or mandate from Kla-how-ya FM with the AVR's application. Our vision
is to create balance, via unity and harmony and peace for all of our
communities, by our participation in our community endeavours. Our belief as
broadcasters is to create unity, in essence, of the wealth of our diversity that
we could deliver to and with the mainstream to make ourselves a stronger, united
country, as diverse as we are with our languages, with the mainstream and the
international community, that may listen and partner with our broadcasts.
7234 We appeal for support for Gary Farmer's endeavours. As in starting, our
vision without action is merely a dream; and action without vision just passes
the time. Vision with action can change the world, and we invite you, as the
Commissioners, to create this awesome partnership with the mainstream and the
indigenous in the best interests of education for social and economic -- a
better lifestyle for all.
7235 Patience with your time, I thank you for your listenership.
7236 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I just want to tell you, Ms White, that I am quite
familiar with Gary Farmer's acting career. In fact, I starred with him in a
movie. You might not recognize me because he was a great actor and I was in a
crowd of about 3,000 people. But I was there.
7237 MS WHITE: Congratulations. We are still waiting in line for that. A
7238 MR. KENNEDY: Commissioners, I have had the privilege of working in
broadcasting most of my life, and being behind a microphone, in a different
context of course, and obviously there is something about radio that is pretty
special. Really what it is is that we share information, we share perspective,
and we share context. So I will share some information with you that I believe
you have not heard, and certainly, if you have heard it, you haven't heard it
through your mainstream media or the media that we rely on.
7239 I have had an opportunity in the last two years to work with people such
as Joy Ward and others here in community work, because of our children and our
families. I know you are familiar with the "sixties scoop". I know that because
it is a terminology that came around from mainstream, because of media guys like
me who like phraseology and buzzwords. It really meant, as the Australians call
it, the stolen generations -- ourselves, who were taken from our homes and put
into foster care.
7240 The information I am going to share with you, Chairman and
Commissioners, is from here in Vancouver. At least, if not more than, 50 per
cent of the children who are in the care of the Ministry of Children and
Families in the province of British Columbia are Aboriginal. In Prince George it
is 67 per cent. In Prince Rupert it is almost 100 per cent.
7241 This is not information that you will hear on the CBC, and it is not
information that you will hear from the mainstream media, because we are
isolated and our information is isolated from them. And they don't care, with
7242 I have spent my life mostly in non-Aboriginal mainstream media and I
know that we are only now breaking through in our information. So that is one
piece of information that I will share with you.
7243 Now I am going to share a piece of information with you from a
non-aboriginal person in your world, a highly respected man, Michael Chandler,
from the University of British Columbia.
7244 Michael shared with me personally and allowed me to use this information
on behalf of our people over the last couple of years. He did a study on
suicide. It is not a nice topic. It is not a topic we like to discuss, but it is
one we need to discuss amongst all of the other topics that Lou and others have
shared with you today.
7245 Michael Chandler's study was about Aboriginal people, First Nations
people, specifically First Nations youth. Our youth are in peril and in danger
of this particular activity of suicide. So his study went into it. He found what
I believe is information that is very important and relevant to why we are here
7246 The communities that he went into and studied where there was cultural
restoration, where there was self-determination, where there were efforts under
way to bring back the culture of those communities, the rate of suicide with our
young people plummeted. There were some examples in his study -- and it is
available to you -- of absolutely zero in the communities where there was the
strength of self-determination, self-government, and cultural restoration and
7247 Our elders have told us this. They tell us always: Get in touch with
your traditions. We need to do this. But this is information coming from the
non-Aboriginal world at the University of British Columbia.
7248 His study focused on our people. The message that I got out of
that -- and I asked him if I could use this message in spreading the word
through the Aboriginal community through the Web site -- was: Save culture;
7249 Here I go again, a media guy looking for quick phraseologies, but we
need to simplify, and radio is the business of trying to communicate quickly and
7250 He said yes. Save culture; save lives.
7251 How does Aboriginal Voices Radio tie into that? I think you have heard
from Joy and others that if we had this radio, if we could share these messages,
if we could share the solutions, not just the crisis and everything, but if we
could share the solutions and help restore the culture and bring it back, we
actually could help save lives.
7252 This is information that I share with you, and I believe this is the
kind of information that would be on Aboriginal Voices Radio, which would help
not only identify the problems, but identify to mainstream people and media that
there are solutions.
7253 It is what we are saying. We are saying: Allow us to be self-determining
for the express purpose of bringing back languages and cultures, and things like
that, and to save our youth.
7254 MS PIERRE: The urban native population in the south, in Vancouver, is
mostly under the age of 25.
7255 These are some things I really want to share with you.
7256 In Vancouver there are a lot of native youth who are very focused on
multimedia and who have received training. There aren't enough jobs going
around. A lot of these people need the support and encouragement to further
develop their talent and skills. These people are willing to provide quality
media coverage of native issues that just isn't provided in mainstream
7257 A national Aboriginal radio station would help these youth in striving
for their goals to support and provide news and arts and entertainment
information to the native communities in Canada.
7258 In the inter-tribal urban community of Vancouver there are lots of
brilliant people who have valuable knowledge, opinions and wisdom to share.
Their words are gifts to everyone, which everyone needs to hear.
7259 Also, with what he was talking about, I find that working with a lot of
young people, being young myself, a lot of us find our biggest inspiration in
each other. So it is really important that our voices be heard and that we start
empowering other people to find their own voices and to start talking.
7260 There is no shortage of fresh talent in Vancouver. There is a healthy
urban music scene. A lot of native youth are emcees and are into rap and
hip-hop. These aren't really promoted, and I think there are a lot of people who
could be launching their careers.
7261 Also, I would like to say that there are huge urban music scenes --
urban native music scenes -- in Winnipeg and also in Edmonton, and to be
linking these together could be starting a whole new music industry, which could
be useful to Canada in general.
7262 If they are linked through Aboriginal Voices, this could launch the
career of the artist, while having a major impact on the lifestyles of native
youth all over Canada through inspiration and finding that pride. I think that
would be really inspiring for people.
7263 Aboriginal Voices Radio would provide all Canadians a chance to see
native people in a light other than the popular Hollywood Indian stereotype.
Right now in mainstream media native people and their actions are often
portrayed in an ignorant and unclear light because of the overall lack of
understanding of where native people are really coming from.
7264 If there were a service that could share the points of view of native
people in this country, that would promote understanding and clarity, this could
be of benefit to everyone.
7265 MS BUFFALO: Thank you.
7266 Commissioners, I am very encouraged by the team that we were able to
assemble to present before you the proposal that we have to launch; I think what
is known to be an unknown -- the unknown. And it is fearful.
7267 Other people have told us that we won't succeed because we don't have
the money or we don't have the experience, but, believe me, the one thing we do
have, especially as native women --
7268 If you notice, the majority of the people on this panel are female. We
have a very strong will to survive. And we will make it. I absolutely have
nothing but full commitment to this initiative nationwide.
7269 I see the need. There is no way that we can fail. Why should one be
afraid to fail? We should not be afraid to do that.
7270 I believe that one of the most difficult things that you can do as a
national leader in this country is to try to get some money from the resources
that are here in this province. If you can believe it, this is one of the
richest communities, and I would say it is the most cosmopolitan in North
America. Yet it is impossible to shake loose $300 for a native woman to leave
the Vancouver detox centre to go home to her community in Saskatchewan, because
the Vancouver detox centre does not have that kind of money, the social services
in this province do not have that kind of money, and neither do the feds. They
are very happy just keeping us in poverty.
7271 I say that because I have tried, and I did that exactly last week.
7272 I believe that if we are successful in garnering the partnerships, that
we successfully will have once our licence is approved, and NewCap's licence is
approved, we can move forward together. They have given us the commitment that
they will teach us, and that we also will teach them some things that are very
7273 I don't believe going into the new millennium, the year 2001, that we
should be expected to always be on the same page, singing the same song; that we
should not have disagreements.
7274 We all develop differently. We have very controversial issues in our
midst. And we have also the number one right -- the only right that we have
left in this country, which is our freedom to speak freely. That is the only
thing we have left, ladies and gentlemen, and we need that in order to move
7275 We also need to have true native content on the airwaves. Our children
are starving. I have conducted consultations, conferences, conventions across
this country over the last 30 years, and the number one thing that our children
ask for is the right to speak freely, and the right to learn their language, the
right to learn their culture.
7276 On the other hand, if you have -- and I have done this, and I have
the documentation to prove it -- if you have an elders conference, it
doesn't matter where it is conducted, it is nationwide. What is their number one
concern? Their number one concern is youth and the rate that children are dying
in the communities, urban and rural, and northern isolated.
7277 This is a vehicle that will bridge the two groups, the elders and the
youth, and only then will we move forward in a healthy fashion.
7278 Also, I want to say that, as we speak, the Toronto community is hosting,
throughout North America, in the SkyDome might I add, one of the largest
festivals in this country. They are also hosting the Canadian Aboriginal Music
Awards, what are the Aboriginal Junos -- every category, from the
traditional to the modern contemporary. Our people are celebrating today and all
of this weekend.
7279 Many of us could only dream that our children would one day be on stage
at that time, and in the next 10 or 15 years that is what will happen.
7280 I have been involved in education for 30 years. We still have a long way
7281 I was raised in a boarding school. The one thing that they could not do
was shut me up, because I absolutely refused. And I will not ever be quiet. That
is the only thing I had left as a child.
7282 The new era -- we are now moving into the sciences, into the
maths -- we are going into high tech, the same as any other child that is
put on this planet.
7283 Our children will succeed, but it will only be with the vehicles, and
radio is only one of them.
7284 I plead with you to please give us the right to express ourselves, our
freedom of speech. Thank you very much.
7285 MR. FARMER: Thank you very much for all of the time you have given to us
today. Thank you very much for the television network that you gave us a few
months ago, or a few years ago. I realize that it still costs us $39.95 to get
7286 This is the last opportunity for us to get a licence --
7287 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe $18.95, if you don't take all of those packages.
You can get it on basic.
7288 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: It's because you are getting TSN; that's why.
7289 MR. FARMER: But realize, of course, that this is the last free medium
for us. It is the medium that is most accessible to the people. It is our
medium; it is the oral medium.
7290 I am astounded by the decision that you have to make, because, in your
hands, the five of you can literally fund this operation for seven years --
the first seven years of operation -- with the right decision. You would
put it on a path and there would be no turning back. That would be very
beneficial for the country.
7291 I know that you will make the right decision. With that, I thank you all
for the time, and we look forward to a positive decision. (Native language
--- Applause / Applaudissements
7292 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have a fairly mundane question, after all of those
eloquent remarks. However, sometimes my work is mundane, as I guess all of ours
is from time to time.
7293 I wanted to clarify, with respect to the programming that is now being
produced locally on Co-op Radio, are you proposing that that programming would
go on the network?
7294 What I am trying to get a sense of is if there is any existing radio
broadcasting that you are planning --
7295 I know that Commissioner Cardozo talked to you about it, but I just
wasn't sure if that might be some of the programming that would go on the
7296 MR. FARMER: Yes, for sure. Any programming that is produced in the
country, either relations that we have --
7297 I mean, there are programmers that I got started at Queen's University
ten years ago who are still there, the same programmers. They only got better
with time. So we are going to turn to them, see what they are up to, and help
shape their programming to fit a national audience. That is in our best
7298 THE CHAIRPERSON: The reason I am asking is -- and I don't know how
many of you know, but I am the Commissioner for British Columbia and it is with
respect to all of the applications that are before us. It is a very big concern
of mine, to ensure that there is a sensitivity to that piece. And certainly the
urban native piece is a very important piece.
7299 So I really want to make sure that when we talk about this --
7300 The proposal, as it has come to us, does not require any programming to
be originated out of British Columbia or Vancouver. In other words, you have a
lot of very good intentions, and I don't doubt them, and I don't doubt your will
and the talent that is here. None of that is an issue for me. Nor do I think any
of us question the importance of having Aboriginal radio. I think all of us
share that. The question is: What is the best way to do it? Is this the best
7301 One of the things that is really important -- and, for me, it is to
understand that if in fact NewCap isn't licensed, if in fact your corporate
partner -- that doesn't happen -- to what extent will you be able, and
when, to put on some programming?
7302 Let's put aside the issue of local programming for a minute and talk
about programming that originated -- is relevant to this community. This is
why -- and I don't want to go on and on about it. We could maybe talk about
it partly at another phase. But this is why I am saying, if some exists for
Co-op Radio and is being produced, is there a supply of programming already here
in this market that would be appropriate for the network, so that there would be
some things that could be done that wouldn't require perhaps production budgets
and that sort of thing.
7303 MR. FARMER: Yes, there is. There is programming like this all across the
7304 In fact, we honour your vision, as the CRTC, in enabling the community
and college broadcasters to exist for so many years. Some of it has been tough.
Some of the situations that exist in Toronto with the community broadcasters
have made it extremely difficult for them to survive in that kind of
7305 But, actually, if you look at the college broadcasting community, that
broadcast system is what leads the charge. I think the private broadcasters and
the CBC look toward it. It is the training ground in this country for
7306 We are going to utilize that as much as everyone else. We feel that we
are equal. We are brothers and sisters with the college and community
broadcasters in this country. We are going to utilize their programming and take
it nationally as best we can.
7307 MR. MacLEOD: I would like to add two quick comments to that, if I could.
One is that we realize that the Commission faces similar difficult decisions
when the CBC is proposing national services in urban markets across Canada where
it is not planning on putting any local programming in those markets, and
obviously your concern would be the same with them: What are they going to do to
develop the programming?
7308 You have said that you accept that our intentions are good.
7309 I would remind you again that the plan in our application is to
develop -- we need to develop an economy, and in order to develop that
economy we have to get the stations up in markets across Canada, and Toronto and
Vancouver would be great as a start, in order to build national advertising
revenue, in order to build the local programming component that we need. That is
a big part of how this works.
7310 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and I do understand that. It was just that piece
7311 You know, it is really important to me, the Regional Commissioner here,
that those Aboriginal people from Vancouver understand that the extent to
7312 I want to make sure that I am connecting with them in terms of what they
are expecting of me. That is why I wanted to explore that; to understand that it
may well not --
7313 If all of these other pieces don't fall into place, it may be that there
isn't going to be an infrastructure here to produce programming, and it may be
finding other ways to do it. Or revenues may come from other sources.
7314 That was just what I wanted to really make sure was understood.
7315 MR. KENNEDY: Madam Chair, I believe I hear and understand what you are
saying about the challenges you face. We have been here as many days and
certainly know all of those other factors that you refer to if other things
7316 In fact, the expectations that we have been told the Aboriginal
community has here -- and Billie, I think, articulated it clearly --
it was simple for me to understand -- is that they want to hear a national
perspective. But that is two-way. If we were in Ottawa speaking to the
Aboriginal community there, there would be an expectation that it would go both
7317 There is local programming here, which these people here produce, but
that is now. They are doing it. We heard Cleo. I think she said the key word.
They do it. It is a labour of love and it is volunteered.
7318 What we have committed to -- if we have the package that we have
put together, with $4.2 million to assist us, where moneys would allow us to
help not only the network but also local programming, then we would have a Class
A. That is what the Aboriginal people deserve, Class A. And I don't mean that
7319 I don't want to go off into a frequency --
7320 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand that. And I don't mean to interrupt
7321 What I need to do, though, is to ask some of those "What if" questions,
because it is really important for me to put them on the table here so that we
all understand that we have a number of things to face.
7322 That is all I wanted to do, was to ensure that there was that "What if"
7323 I am not going to say one more thing.
7324 Commissioner Cram has a question.
7325 With Commissioner Cram, also, I wasn't sure that I picked up --
7326 Will you file these studies, Mr. Matthews, with us that you have?
7327 MR. MATTHEWS: Yes. You already have the frequency studies on file from
the NewCap presentation.
7328 THE CHAIRPERSON: So there is nothing else that you have that we might
want, that you talked about sharing with some of the other --
7329 MR. MATTHEWS: In terms of technical detail, we will be providing
everything we have done in terms of research to Simon Fraser.
7330 THE CHAIRPERSON: And what about to us?
7331 MR. MATTHEWS: If you would like a copy, that would not be a problem.
7332 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
7333 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I would like to be clear about this issue of picking
up programming from Co-op Radio, because I know I asked this in Calgary, and I
don't want the people here to have false expectations. We discussed the same
thing in Calgary, and I thought there was going to be a technical cost to that;
that we had to get it into an uplink in order to get it to Toronto, in order to
downlink, and I thought I understood from you that the cost would be quite
7334 Am I incorrect?
7335 MR. KENNEDY: My understanding is that it is not substantial to do that,
but certainly Mark or Mr. Matthews could answer that.
7336 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So what would be stopping you from doing it effective
September, or whenever your licence comes up? Whenever Toronto rolls in.
7337 MR. KENNEDY: You asked about uplink.
7338 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.
7339 MR. KENNEDY: That is without the large package. That is without meeting
the expectations and the needs of the community.
7340 We have a plan to go it alone, which is in our application, without the
other factor that the Commissioners have mentioned, which is the $4.2 million.
We have that, and we will move forward, and we will have Toronto on the air, and
we will have a network.
7341 The expectations that the Aboriginal community -- it is not me, it
is the Aboriginal community here in Vancouver and in Calgary that you heard
from, whether it is Margaret Rider representing the community there, or the
7342 The $4.2 million will allow us to provide to the Aboriginal community,
we believe, what the Aboriginal community deserves. It won't be a
7343 Why should we have to do that? Why should we have to go --
7344 Why would we have to wait all of those years, when we could accelerate
and have an aggressive network and put radio on the air in Ottawa, in the
prairies, and in other places?
7345 We would like to do that, so that when Billie Pierre turns the radio on
in Vancouver and says that she wants to hear a national perspective, she will
hear a national perspective, and she can also send it back through the
7346 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Kennedy, my question was really a follow-up on
Commissioner Grauer's, because the question was asked of Mr. Farmer: Will you be
putting this local programming on from Co-op Radio? The answer was yes.
7347 And I understood in Calgary that that was not going to happen --
because I asked an identical question in Calgary -- that that was not going
to happen, that it was going to be national programming, and eventually you may
7348 So my question is -- and my concern is the same issue: the
expectations of the community here for local programming, and what they should
7349 Again, I ask: Will this kind of programming from Co-op Radio be uplinked
and downlinked so that immediately, if this station is licensed, the people here
would have Co-op Radio local programming?
7350 That is the question I need to have answered.
7351 MR. FARMER: I'm sorry, Ms Cram, but in Calgary there was one
program -- and also there was Margaret's input. Of course, they are doing
50 hours a week. We have absolutely no problem --
7352 And I remember distinctly that I said I was anxious to get some of "The
Best Drums in the Country". Now, that was, of course, a program that they don't
necessarily produce right now, but all we have to do is lay the seed and that
program will be produced in that community. But the "Beads and Feathers" program
that exists at the University of Calgary right now can easily be adopted to the
network with no problem.
7353 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Farmer, I am asking today about Co-op Radio here
and Vancouver programming. If we gave you a licence, would that happen
immediately? The licence is coming. You are putting your transmitter here. Would
the Co-op Radio programming be on the waves for the people of Vancouver?
7354 MR. FARMER: If it befits a national audience, yes it will.
7355 MR. MacLEOD: Could I follow that up, Commissioner Cram?
7356 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Can I just, please, finish this.
7357 So only, then, if it would be on the national network. It will not be,
effectively, instantly a local package, even though you are not producing
7358 MR. FARMER: It could, but in our -- yes, it very well could be.
7359 I am distinctly relating to what our delivery mechanism through the
Aboriginal Peoples Television Network has outfitted to us, that if the
programming is of national interest -- now, local programming, I am sure,
is of national interest. The one that Kelly is producing here would be of
national interest, and we could, yes, indeed put that on the national airwaves.
No problem. From the beginning.
7360 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. MacLeod...?
7361 MR. MacLEOD: I just want to make it clear that part of our pledge to the
community in Toronto -- and our licence application in Toronto was that
those people would hear programming from elsewhere, as well, the same as it is
7362 Your question, I think, was centring on whether there would be
programming only heard in Vancouver and not heard in Toronto --
7363 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Local programming, yes.
7364 MR. MacLEOD: Our application is that, according to your definition of
local programming, we will only have basically the community bulletin boards to
start. However, there will be a great deal of programming produced locally,
including that of Co-op Radio -- potentially parts of that -- that
will be heard in both markets, because both markets are interested in hearing
7365 MS REECE: Could I also add something to that?
7366 If you look at what has happened with APTN, they are looking for
programming constantly -- good programming. We did find some here. VTV
produces a half-hour public affairs/public interest show, a First Nations show,
which has been picked up by APTN and rebroadcast there. I can see the potential
for good programs coming out of Vancouver doing the same thing.
7367 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very, very much.
7368 Counsel has no questions. We have fully explored all of the issues.
7369 MR. KENNEDY: Thank you.
7370 MR. FARMER: Thank you.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2030, to resume
on Friday, November 24, 2000 at 0900 / L'audience
est ajournée à 2030, pour reprendre le vendredi
24 novembre 2000 à 0900