TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU
CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT / SUJET:
APPLICATIONS FOR FM RADIO LICENCES
DEMANDES DE LICENCES DE RADIO FM
|Hilton Vancouver Metrotown
||Hilton Vancouver Metrotown|
|Room Crystal III
||Salle Crystal III|
|6083 McKay Avenue
||6083, avenue McKay|
|November 21, 2000
||Le 21 novembre 2000|
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio-television and
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
Transcript / Transcription
Applications for FM radio licences
Demandes de licences de radio FM
|BEFORE / DEVANT:|
||Chairperson / Présidente|
||Commissioner / Conseillère|
||Commissioner / Conseiller|
||Commissioner / Conseillère|
||Commissioner / Conseiller|
|ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:|
||Legal Counsel /|
||Hearing Manager / Gérant de|
||Secretary / Secrétaire|
|Hilton Vancouver Metrotown
||Hilton Vancouver Metrotown|
|Room Crystal III
||Salle Crystal III|
|6083 McKay Avenue
||6083, avenue McKay|
|November 21, 2000
||Le 21 novembre 2000|
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
APPLICATION PAR / APPLICATION BY
Telemedia Radio Inc. / Telemedia Radio (West) 1615
APPLICATION BY / APPLICATION PAR
Harvard Developments / Craig Music & Entertainment Inc. 2039
APPLICATION BY / APPLICATION PAR
Classic 94.5 FM Ltd. 2568
Vancouver, B.C. / Vancouver (C-B)
--- Upon resuming on Tuesday, November 21, 2000,
at 0907 / L'audience reprend le mardi 21 novembre
2000 à 0907
1608 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
1609 Madam Secretary, please.
1610 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.
1611 Our first presentation this morning will be the Application by Telemedia
Radio (West) Inc., on behalf of the company to be incorporate, for a
broadcasting licence to carry on an English-language FM radio programming
undertaking at Vancouver.
1612 The new station would operate on Frequency 94.5 MHz, with an effective
radiated power of 37,000 watts.
1613 The Applicant is proposing a Smooth Jazz specialty format, with 70 per
cent of the music drawn from subcategory 34, which is Jazz and Blues.
1614 Please go ahead.
APPLICATION / APPLICATION
1615 MR. BEAUDOIN: Madam Chair, Commissioners, CRTC staff, good morning.
1616 My name is Claude Beaudoin, and I am the President and Chief Executive
Officer of Telemedia Radio Inc. and Telemedia Radio (West), which groups our
Western-based radio stations.
1617 I would like first to introduce our panel.
1618 On my far right, Mr. Hugh McKinnon, Executive Vice-President of
Telemedia Radio (West). Hugh was formerly a major shareholder of Nornet Radio
and the Okanagan-Skeena Radio Group.
1619 Mr. Dave Calder, on my immediate right, is Senior Vice-President of
Telemedia Radio (West). Dave, formerly a senior executive of Okanagan-Skeena,
lives in Vancouver.
1620 At the table behind me, starting from your right:
1621 Mr. Mario Cecchini, Telemedia Vice-President, Sales, Research &
1622 Mr. Chris Weafer, our legal advisor, from Owen Bird, Vancouver;
1623 Ms Betty Selin, Group News Director, for Telemedia Radio (West). Betty
joined Okanagan- Skeena in 1989;
1624 Mr. Jason Mann is Group Program Director for our B.C. south stations. He
has been with the company for six years.
1625 At our third table, from your right:
1626 Mr. Chris Lecomte, Telemedia Director of Finance;
1627 Mr. Tom Keenlyside is a professional musician and composer, and a
recognized expert in the jazz genre.
1628 Mr. Peter Stigings is a long time high school educator and, among his
many accomplishments, he is Past President of the International Association of
1629 And back to this table, on my immediate left, Ms Nanon De Gaspé
Beaubien, one of our shareholders. Nanon plays an active shareholder's role in
1631 MS DE GASPÉ BEAUBIEN: Thank you, Peter.
1632 Good day, Madam Chair, Commissioners and CRTC staff.
1633 My father, Philippe de Gaspé Beaubien, has passionately devoted 30 years
of service to Canadian Broadcasting. He recently transferred equal ownership of
Telemedia to my two brothers and me. We are the next generation of Telemedia,
and we have chosen radio as our principal area of focus.
1634 I am here first as an active owner of Telemedia, and secondly as a proud
Westerner who has chosen to work and raise my children in Vancouver. I have
lived here for the past eight years.
1635 We are delighted to present today a compelling application for Smooth
Jazz 94.5 FM, Specialty Format, to serve Vancouver.
1636 Telemedia's commitment is to be a strong radio company, providing
service in markets large and small, the programming of which creates local and
regional content which is relevant and connected to the needs of our
1637 Telemedia is committed to British Columbia. This is Telemedia's second
application to the Commission to serve the Vancouver FM Radio market. In 1996,
the Commission determined that a new ethnic service was the appropriate licence
for Vancouver. Since then, we have been building our presence in Western Canada
through the acquisition of Okanagan-Skeena Radio. Now, through adding a
Vancouver station to Telemedia's strong regional News and Information services,
we would strengthen regional radio in B.C., and bring a distinctive new voice to
1638 Our commitment to the Smooth Jazz format is underlined by the fact that
only Telemedia, amongst all the applicants appearing before you at this hearing,
applied to introduce a Smooth Jazz format to Calgary. Madam Chair and
Commissioners, we hope to have the opportunity, with your approval, to give jazz
fans and artists a strong voice in Western Canada.
1639 MR. McKINNON: Thirty years ago, my family founded Nornet Radio in Fort
St. John, B.C. I operated Nornet for several years and, more recently, I became
involved with the Okanagan-Skeena Radio Group. Our western company had a clear
focus on acquiring radio stations and improving services to small and medium
markets. I am proud of the local information system we built in British Columbia
and Alberta. It is not equalled by any other broadcaster, public or private, or
any other media outlet.
1640 My co-workers and I have worked hard to provide a strong local service
in all of our smaller markets. When Telemedia acquired Okanagan-Skeena, we
gained resources to enhance that service. The Vancouver application today is
very important to us, as it completes our vision of B.C. by filing a strategic
gap and allowing better service to all the communities we serve.
1641 MR. BEAUDOIN: Let's now review the details of our application.
1642 You emphasized, in Decision 2000-392 (Kingston), four factors which are
key in the licensing of a new radio station. We would like to address each of
them: (1) The impact a new entrant will have on the market; (2) the implications
with respect to the diversity of editorial voices in the market; (3) the
competitive state of the market; and (4) the quality of the applications.
1643 MR. CECCHINI: (1) The Impact of a New Entrant on the Market. "Vancouver
is a strong market that will continue to grow in future in terms of population,
retail sales, GDP, and radio airtime revenues". This is a quote from a study
done by PWC (Price Waterhouse Coopers) on the impact of Smooth Jazz 94.5 FM on
the Vancouver market. This report concludes that radio revenues will grow at an
average annual rate of 4.1 per cent from 2000 to 2006, and that existing FM
stations will likely continue to have strong revenue and profit growth despite
the addition of a new station. Beyond our research, three of the applicants for
Smooth Jazz already have two stations in the market. Existing operators know
better than anyone how healthy the market is, and no incumbent station has
intervened against the issuance of a new licence.
1644 MS SELIN: (2) Diversity of Editorial Voices in Vancouver: Telemedia is
not now a licensee in Vancouver. By approving our application for Smooth Jazz
94.5 FM, a new news voice is introduced to the market. At a time when other news
voices are being consolidated, this is a significant benefit.
1645 In addition, the Commission, through approval of our application, would
allow us to add a vital link to our province-wide News and Information exchange
1646 I am very proud of our local news teams. Our B.C. journalists and
stations have won 29 awards in the past five years. For example, our Terrace
news team won a CAB Gold Ribbon Award and a Jack Webster Award for "Carving the
Future", an in-depth, 20-year profile of the Nisga'a treaty process. This
material was so thorough that it was acquired by the B.C. Ministry of Education
for the high school curriculum.
1647 Telemedia's News and Information exchange system serves our non-metro
communities well. Our Vancouver journalists, unlike any other Vancouver station,
will have access to our province-wide news gathering resources. This is what we
mean when we talk about connecting communities and creating a strong regional
news voice in B.C. With a news force of 27 journalists across the province, only
Telemedia would be able to bring stories from Trail and Prince Rupert, Penticton
and Salmon Arm, and connect them to the lower mainland.
1648 Telemedia believes in mentoring. Many of our news people in our smaller
stations are ready to advance their careers. We want to keep these talented
journalists within the company, in the region they have roots in. A Vancouver
station will enable us to do that.
1649 MR. BEAUDOIN: (3) The Competitive State of the Market: The Commission
need not be concerned about competitive balance in Vancouver, or the ability of
Smooth Jazz 94.5 FM to succeed. The Vancouver radio market is a healthy,
competitive, and balanced market. We know that Smooth Jazz 94.5 FM will succeed
in Vancouver as a stand-alone station. Telemedia has the advantage of knowing
British Columbia well, and we will be able to capitalize on the marketing and
sales synergies with our existing regional stations. We have the strength, the
financial and human resources, and the major market experience to compete.
1650 And finally, no. 4, Our Business Plan: Let's talk about why Smooth Jazz
is the appropriate format for Vancouver now. Here's a Specialty Format which
adds diversity to the Vancouver markets, answers market demands, and has strong
1651 In addition, we believe: (1) That the Commission should licence a
Specialty Format station to ensure diversity is created and maintained; (2) That
a new entrant should be licensed to increase the diversity of editorial voices
in Vancouver; and (3) that Telemedia's proposal best meets the Commission's
criteria for licensing a new radio service in Vancouver.
1652 Let's review the highlights of our Business Plan, starting with our
1653 MR. CECCHINI: Impact Research, a major Canadian research company,
surveyed Vancouver, and probed interests and musical tastes. There is one
format, Smooth Jazz, that is not now available in Vancouver and can be expected
to build a strong audience: 46 per cent of the respondents to this survey said
that the Smooth Jazz format interested them; when we played a montage of Smooth
Jazz music to our respondents, 53 per cent said they would be very interested in
listening to a station playing this type of music.
1654 A new Smooth Jazz station in Vancouver will find an eager audience.
1655 The market feedback translates into a commercially viable radio
audience, with a realistic market share projection starting at 4 per cent and
building. Our market research also indicated that the "Smooth Jazz listeners"
are well educated and affluent.
1656 This audience profile is valuable to advertisers. We are confident the
revenue projections in our application are realistic.
1657 MR. MANN: Let's review how Telemedia's new station will provide high
quality local programming for Vancouver.
1658 Our programming strategy is built on meeting listeners' needs. We have
researched the market and met with musicians, educators, jazz event promoters,
and many others to help us understand what a great Vancouver Smooth Jazz station
would sound like. Here is what we heard, and how we will meet each need.
"...play Canadian jazz artists..." We will play 180 or more of them, a larger
Canadian music universe than many Pop and Rock stations. Our music will include
artists like Diana Krall and Brian Hughes, and lesser known artists like Jeremy
Hepner, Metalwood and Vancouver's Megan Fanning. Ironically, many of these
performers receive regular airplay on Smooth Jazz stations in the U.S., but are
not widely heard on air in Canada.
"...don't forget the jazz greats..." We won't. Smooth Jazz 94.5 FM will have
Showcase Retrospectives on jazz greats like Oscar Peterson, Rob McConnell, Tommy
Banks, Paul Horn, and more.
"...promote jazz in Vancouver..." We will! "Smoothtalk" will feature profiles
of Jazz artists appearing live in Vancouver.
"...remember jazz is best heard live..." We agree! Twenty-six "Saturday Night
Live" concerts on Smooth Jazz 94.5 FM will feature Canadian jazz artists live.
We will make these programs available to all other Smooth Jazz stations in
"...reflect our love of the arts...". We promise to do that! "SmoothArts"
runs 21 times a week to promote and profile performances from all of the fine
arts. Our "Fine Arts Alive" campaign is designed to promote the value of
attendance and participation in Vancouver's cultural communities.
"...be local!" We hear this message. Virtually all programming and all news
will originate from our Vancouver studios. Smooth Jazz 94.5 FM will provide
Vancouver with 106 newscasts weekly, along with local weather, traffic, and
other essential information.
1659 The un-served Jazz audience and the un-played Canadian jazz artists in
Vancouver deserve a radio station they can call their own.
1660 MR. BEAUDOIN: Let's talk about Canadian content.
1661 In May 2000, we filed an application for Smooth Jazz 94.5 as a Category
2 station with a Canadian Content level of 35 per cent. On June 21, 2000, the
Commission implemented new content categories as provided for by Public Notice
CRTC 2000-14. As a result of this new policy and in response to a staff
deficiency letter dated August 2000, we confirmed that the station would be a
Specialty format, as 70 of the music will be from sub-category 34. We are
committed to fulfil our 35 per cent Canadian content commitment, as originally
1662 MR. CALDER: Vancouver is a city with an emerging and thriving jazz
community. We are confident that Vancouver will embrace Smooth Jazz 94.5 FM. We
were met with an enthusiastic response when we went into the community to ask
what we should do to support local jazz musicians in Vancouver. From the great
ideas we fashioned a unique, substantial, and progressive Canadian Talent
1663 Let's look at the elements of this innovative plan, built in five
1664 Part 1: The first element of Telemedia's Jazz Vancouver Program is "Jazz
in Schools". Almost every week of the school year, professional Vancouver jazz
musicians will be in a greater Vancouver high school working side by side with
music educators. After a live performance, these musicians will work with
teachers and students in a professional clinic. Up close, this is proof you can
succeed in music. Our jazz artists, as professionals, will be paid. The total
commitment to this phase will be $378,000.
1665 Part 2: "Jazz in Schools" will be part of the core curriculum, and
that's important. We will provide direct support to Vancouver High Schools to
develop the needed learning materials. Thus, "Jazz in Schools" is a long term
part of music education. Our commitment to this direct support is $182,000.
1666 Part 3: Each year, "Jazz in Schools" builds to the grand finale --
the Telemedia Jazz Vancouver Showcase. Vancouver professional jazz musicians and
our best students share the stage in venues like the Chan Centre for the
Performing Arts. Smooth Jazz 94.5 FM will promote the show extensively, and
broadcast the Jazz Vancouver Showcase. The combination of seasoned jazz
professionals and bright, new artists ensures strong interest. Our commitment to
the Jazz Vancouver Showcase is $140,000.
1667 Part 4: Our next partner in Telemedia's Jazz in Schools Program is Tech
BC, the newest University in British Columbia. In the words of its President,
Bernard S. Sheehan, Ph.D.:
"History will be made through our graduates. They are the achievers --
people who will build new companies, develop new technologies and contribute to
the success of society in 21st century B.C.".
1668 Jazz performers have a history of being at the forefront of adopting new
technologies as they create music. Since the days of Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea
and Paul Horn, jazz improvisers and composers have been quick to experiment with
breakthrough electronic instruments.
1669 Digital technologies have already had an enormous impact on the way
music is played, composed, recorded, and distributed. TechBC's Interactivity Lab
will investigate the potential for further refinement of current practices and
the development of innovative approaches to the authoring, performance, and
dissemination of audio content. This ultimately benefits both the artistic and
production sides of these complex processes, with immediate benefit to local
1670 Our commitment to build TechBC's Interactivity Lab is $350,000. Our
investment will trigger $395,000 of additional funding through government
programs, for a total of $745,000.
1671 Part 5: Our next initiative exposes our best local jazz artists to the
largest live audiences of the year -- the duMaurier International Jazz
Festival. This is where those who love jazz mingle with those who merely like
it, and bring their friends who have never heard jazz before. With the Telemedia
Jazz Vancouver Program support of $1,400,000, the Vancouver International Jazz
Festival has committed to showcase local jazz artists.
1672 We consider the format itself to be a significant benefit. The
Commission recognized this in their 1999 Decision to licence CIWV FM in
Hamilton. in that Decision, you noted "the new station will provide exposure for
a broad group of Canadian contemporary jazz artists who currently receive
little, if any, airplay on Canadian commercial stations". This will be as true
in Vancouver as it is in Hamilton.
1673 Quantity and quality. Our quantity is $2,639,000, including our $189,000
to FACTOR. With our indirect benefits, our total commitment is $5,789,000. I
would like to talk about the quality.
1674 Telemedia believes that Canadian Talent Development must focus not only
on the actual expenditure, but also on the direct benefit to the Canadian music
industry and the broadcast system.
1675 As this is a new format, we must create a local star system for
Vancouver's jazz musicians. We will identify these future stars, develop them,
and expose them to the leading edge of music recording technology. Most
importantly, we will provide the platform for them to perform on, a platform
rock artists have had for many years. This is a direct benefit to the Canadian
1676 The Smooth Jazz format supports our Canadian Talent Development efforts,
and these efforts, in turn, support the Smooth Jazz format. This is a direct
benefit to the Canadian broadcast system.
1677 We have heard this called... "Bang for the Buck", and we agree.
1678 MR. BEAUDOIN: In conclusion, "What is the best use of the 94.5 frequency
in Vancouver?". We believe that Telemedia's proposal is the appropriate answer
to that question. Why?
1679 First, and foremost, for Vancouver: (1) Telemedia is a new news voice,
bringing increased editorial diversity to a market that has recently seen
consolidation of news voices; (2) we propose a distinct new Specialty format
that expands the playing field for Canadian jazz artists, and Telemedia is
committed to the Smooth Jazz format; (3) Telemedia has the strength and
resources to build a successful stand-alone FM station in Vancouver; (4)
Telemedia's Canadian Talent Development (CTD) program is about quality, and not
only about quantity. Our efforts directly support the Canadian music industry
and the Canadian broadcast system.
1680 And an added value for British Columbia: Approval of Telemedia's
application adds a vital link to the British Columbia news and information
system. The Commission, through issuing a licence in Vancouver to Telemedia,
takes advantage of the opportunity to strengthen regional radio in B.C.
1681 Madam Chair and Commissioners, we are prepared to answer any questions
you may have.
1682 Thank you for your attention.
1683 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
1684 Commissioner Pennefather will question you but, before we start, we
would ask everybody to turn off their cell phones while they are in the room,
including panel members. I would appreciate your cooperation.
1685 Thank you.
1686 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chair.
1687 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
1688 I have some questions regarding your Application, and I will use as well
your presentation this morning, which brings some new details to some of the
areas of the application. So, if you will forgive me, we will move back and
forth from this morning's presentation to your original application.
1689 The areas to discuss are the market analyses for the format proposed,
your Canadian talent development initiatives -- I did have a question on
Canadian content, which you have clarified, but I would like to discuss it
further -- technical issues and, finally, the Telemedia strategy, which you
have referred to several times this morning as well.
1690 On the market analysis, just two basic areas. Firstly, regarding the
impact study, which I have read and which is obviously part and parcel of your
proposed support for the Smooth Jazz format, could you just clarify for me the
fact that the study, at several spots, let's say page 60, which is the
conclusion of the study, indicates that this would be one of several formats
which may work in this market. Oldies was one that came up on the top of the
list, perhaps more AC, but whey did you see the NAC/ Smooth Jazz format as
emerging as the choice for your proposal, considering that there seemed to be
some equivocation on their part that it was the format to choose?
1691 MR. BEAUDOIN: Before asking Mario Cecchini to perhaps add more
information to this question, you are right, we had done our market research
study, we investigated a few formats. As you noticed, other formats could have
been successful in the Vancouver market.
1692 I guess one of the key reasons why we are proposing the Smooth Jazz,
there are a few elements that we need to take into consideration. Number one is
not only how the format was received in the market, but also the audience
profile that would be reached. There is a key factor to making your revenue
projection, which is the kind of profile that you are reaching.
1693 Number two, the growing interest against a Smooth Jazz format. If you
noticed, in our studies we investigated the US markets. In the last ten years,
there was a growing interest for that format, and this is an element that we
took into consideration in recommending this format.
1694 Number three, the fact that Smooth Jazz is a specialty format which
would allow us to create and maintain diversity in the market.
1695 So beyond the share itself, I think these three key factors were taken
into consideration to recommend the Smooth Jazz format.
1696 Maybe, Mario, you would like to add a few comments.
1697 MR. CECCHINI: Very few comments, Claude, more in the sense that also, if
I can only add, is the uniqueness of the offer and our ability to brand this
unique station to advertisers and also the high, well educated and affluent
audience, which directly goes to one of the things that we do best,
1698 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So it is a combination of all of that.
1699 When you say "branding", what do you mean?
1700 MR. CECCHINI: In terms of selling the station in itself, we have an
opportunity here to offer really something unique, that therefore can become a
brand to advertisers, which always drives much more results in terms of
1701 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: That leads me to some of my next questions,
which really come from your description of the format as unique, because in your
analysis, your own projections, you are drawing audience and revenue from what
you call a universe, in which we can assume there is some similar forms of
1702 To be precise, my question concerns pages 8 and 9 of your revenue
projections and audience projections. Here is the first question on that
1703 You are expecting to repatriate audience from out of market stations to
your proposed station. Would you please identify which stations you would expect
to repatriate audience from, and quantity your expectations in each case.
1704 MR. CECCHINI: First of all, in terms of amount, we estimate that we will
repatriate 5 per cent of the out-of-town tuning, which for us will translate
into one share point.
1705 In terms of identifying the stations, it is very difficult, as you know.
We ask BBM for listings of stations that are not measured in this market. What I
can tell you, as we indicated in our research, it is going to come from a
plethora of different stations to minimal impact these outside stations.
1706 If you refer to pages 8 and 9 of our document, we also applied the way
that we build the universe -- the 53 per cent of the tuning level that we
expect that constitutes what we call "the universe" -- applied also to the
out-of-town tuning, which is a rationale to get to these numbers.
1707 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: That is in fact what I wanted to ask you
1708 In applying the same formula, the same methodology, to the out-of-market
stations as you did to the in-market stations, which is on the previous page,
you indicate "same attraction factor", which is your methodology, and yet you
are unable to identify what those stations are.
1709 Where are these 4 million hours tuned coming from? Which stations?
1710 MR. CECCHINI: I have a list with me, if that is what you mean precisely,
but we were not able to pinpoint any of the stations. This is why we used the
average in this case.
1711 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Would you not take into account the specific
out-of-market stations which play Smooth Jazz as opposed to all the
1712 MR. CECCHINI: They are and, based on that point, we can even say, using
the attraction factor that we use for the in-market, it can be seen as
conservative when we look at the out-of-town tuning.
1713 Specifically referring to the Smooth Jazz station, they have, if I
recall correctly, a 0.7 per cent share in the market.
1714 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So your calculations out-of-market tuning
include the U.S. stations, such as the National Public Radio Station carrying
Smooth Jazz and the Seattle station carrying Smooth Jazz, but are you telling me
that the out-of-market studies that you have done is just Smooth Jazz
1715 MR. CECCHINI: No.
1716 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So your out-of-market tuning calculation of 5
per cent is based on all out-of-market tuning, not just Smooth Jazz?
1717 MR. CECCHINI: That is correct.
1718 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: On this matter of the tuning to out-of-market
stations, yesterday we also discussed this point on a broader level, about the
comparison to the U.S. experience. You also have a document in your
1719 I was wondering if you could explain to us how you feel that it is
appropriate to compare the U.S. markets, and here you have explained to us that
you have taken all out-of-market tuning, not just Smooth Jazz stations. How do
you use that fairly to compare it to the Vancouver market? How is the U.S.
experience really a telling one in terms of the Smooth Jazz format accessing
1720 MR. BEAUDOIN: Before I ask Mario to comment on that, I would say, Madam
Pennefather, that it is -- as you saw in our research, it was also to learn
from the U.S. experience, and as you saw, I think we have studied many stations
in many areas of the U.S. The objective was really to determine what kind of
share they could get, what kind of revenues they generate.
1721 So it was more like learning from their experience since the last ten
years -- they have been growing so fast -- and see how we can learn
from that in looking at our own market research.
1722 Maybe Mario would like to add some comments to that.
1723 MR. CECCHINI: Again what I could add to that also was to learn about the
profile of the audience. As you saw also in our U.S. experience document, we
also focused on the specific region of the United States, which is probably
somewhat similar to audience composition to what Vancouver is.
1724 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: All right. I will come back to that point a
little later, on another matter.
1725 Let me turn now to some questions regarding programming, and the
Canadian talent development proposals. I think you have developed your proposals
a little differently this morning, although it adds up to the same in terms of
numbers. Let's look first at the Vancouver International Jazz Festival, which in
your Application you called "a unique agreement" with the Vancouver Jazz
Festival. It has two components: $200,000 cash a year over seven years, and
$100,000 a year in marketing and promotion.
1726 I think this morning you made an indication of how the cash contribution
would really benefit Canadian talent, and in particular local talent. Can you
explain that to me again, because you presented it this morning, and tell me
what guarantee you have that that will take place.
1727 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes. Before I ask Dave Calder to give you some comments on
that, it is important to note that our financial commitment to the Jazz Festival
is earmarked to local artists. We are not talking here of what could be called a
generic sponsorship. We are not trying to replace DuMaurier here. We are trying
to support directly Canadian talent development. This is why we believe that is
a significant contribution to the Canadian music industry.
1728 Dave, would you like to add some comments on that?
1729 MR. CALDER: Just to piggyback on what Claude was just describing, pretty
much from square one, a year or so ago when we were building some of these
concepts and piecing our CTD proposals together, it was our drive to ensure that
it came at us from the stakeholders back, if you will. We basically zeroed in on
the issues that were important to us, and had them help us create this. So the
easiest way to answer your question is just to maybe go through some of the key
elements from the Coastal Jazz and Blues Society, that we have reached agreement
in terms of how the monies would be allocated.
1730 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: In this case, you are referring to the
1731 MR. CALDER: Correct.
1732 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Because I will go back to jazz and schools as
a second --
1733 MR. CALDER: Yes, this is separate.
1734 Specifically to your question on the $200,000 annual directed to the
Coastal Jazz and Blues Society, which is the group that operates the
International Jazz Festival.
1735 It is pretty much linked. In fact, I am going to go down to the bottom
of my correspondence with Robert Kerr, because I think this is very material to
what Claude was just saying.
1736 More than 65 per cent of our program is Canadian -- this is Robert
Kerr's notes -- and the majority of these artists are from Vancouver and
elsewhere in B.C. This is also the most difficult aspect of our work to obtain
private sector support for, because these are generally not the big name popular
stars. As such, this crucial aspect of our programming is also the most
1737 The fact is that in this particular case, what we are zeroing into is
also the area where, as the sponsorship transitions from DuMaurier, they are
likely to need the most help. So it is a true win-win situation.
1738 Here are some of the key areas that we have developed: New works and
special projects, by both established and emerging B.C. artists; showcasing
rising B.C. and Canadian artists as headliners in feature Jazz festival concert
series at the Vancouver East Cultural Centre, performance works on Gravel Island
and the Volk Theatre; showcasing new and emerging B.C. artists as opening acts
for major international headline artists -- I would have put that at the
top of the list, if I were writing this -- at the Volk Theatre, Cormiter
Ballroom and Orpheum Theatre; creating broad public access to B.C. artists,
through major free outdoor events, such as Gastown Jazz and Jazz at the
Roundtoast; and special collaborative projects that create an artistic exchange
between B.C. artists and other Canadian and international artists. These
artistic exchanges lead to both artistic and career growth for B.C. artists.
1739 I would be happy to table this agreement, if that is necessary.
1740 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you. I will leave Madam Chair to comment
on that, but we did discuss this yesterday as well.
1741 Madam Chair also discussed with one of the other applicants, with due
respect to the nature of the Festival and all the different components you have
just described, in and of itself being of great value to the artists, as we say
in French, "ça va de soi" perhaps that you would be involved with the Vancouver
1742 I was wondering if you do not see it as just the course of business and
something that you would do in the normal course of events, of creating an
audience, creating support in this community for what you, yourselves, have said
is a niche format, one which will require building the audience.
1743 How should we evaluate that kind of contribution which, in effect, is,
yes, supporting the artists but it is also supporting your position. Relative to
the revenues that you will be making in this community, where do you situate
that particular contribution?
1744 MR. BEAUDOIN: Before Dave offers his comments, I think that is a very
key question. It also comes down to what is the Canadian Talent Development
Program, what makes it eligible.
1745 I think the key reason why we strongly believe that this investment is a
direct contribution to the Canadian music industry is that this is not, as I
said, a generic sponsorship. If we were just going to have sponsoring the
International Jazz Festival without earmarking where the money goes
specifically, then I would probably agree with you that this is part of our
1746 We are not trying here just to put our station name upfront, we are
trying here to invest money to showcase local artists. And this is I think where
we have to make the difference.
1747 If our investment was strictly to market and advertise our radio
stations, I would agree with you that this is part of our business and marketing
plan, but what we are proposing here is really investing money against specific
elements. There again I think we have reached an agreement that confirms
1748 MR. CALDER: Just to expand on that a bit, there is no question, from a
marketing perspective, that this station will want to be all over the Jazz
Festival. Not only that, but the Coastal Jazz and Blues Society don't just
operate for two or three weeks. They run forty-plus concerts a year, year-round,
which, frankly, are somewhat more challenging to promote and get behind, because
they are not under that umbrella that sort of creates the energy of the Jazz
Festival. So from a marketing perspective, we would be all over all of those
1749 But that is quite separate from sort of drilling down and having support
for a free stage for local Vancouver players or, even to use the example when I
was reading from Robert's piece about the headline artist versus the local
artist that opens the show, from a marketing perspective, setting the CTD aside,
we would want to be all over the headline artist in terms of showcase and what
we were promoting and being a part of with the Jazz station.
1750 These monies are quite separate, quite focused. I would accept the fact
that they have value to, generally speaking, promoting the genre, but they are,
in my mind, quite distinct and focused, and not necessarily where you would
deploy them if you were putting together a marketing plan.
1751 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: If I follow you on the point, there are hopes
that support such as this will be on a continuous basis as opposed to just part
and parcel of a strategy aimed at another goal. You have to play this discussion
from both sides.
1752 You say you have a letter from the Festival, confirming their agreement
to this approach]
1753 MR. CALDER: Yes.
1754 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: If we turn to the Jazz in Schools Program,
which you have outlined in more detail this morning, and I thank you for that,
because I was interested in the Showcase concert component and how that fits
into the scheme for Jazz in Schools.
1755 First, a detail question. Is the cost of that concert part of your
indirect events, $150,000 a year? You have another indirect cash commitment of I
believe $150,000 for events, concerts, performances and so on, annual total. Is
the Jazz in Schools Concert part of that, or is it over and above that?
1756 MR. CALDER: I will answer some parts of this, then -- I am
delighted to have Mr. Stigings with us, because I am going to sort of hand some
of your questions back to him. I am happy to give him credit as one of the
architects of this program.
1757 When we were first putting the program together, I went to a number of
people, including Mr. Stigings, who is a long-time high school educator here, a
music educator in the lower mainland, and basically said: We want to direct
these monies to have the greatest impact in terms of monies flowing to
professional players and, at the same time, we want to have an impact at the
1758 So the three components -- if you will allow me, I would like to
tie the three together, although I will respond to your question specifically
about the showcase. The three components should be considered as one building on
the next. The first component of putting the professionals into the schools, the
money earmarked for that is strictly to pay those professionals to perform at
the schools. An easy way to look at it, it is $54,000 a year; we estimate
roughly $300 per musician.
1759 So we have 180, if you will, paid folks to account for during the year.
If it is a trio, it is going to cost $900. If it is a 15-piece big band, it is
going to cost $4,500. So it is really not up to us to determine what works best
in a particular situation. We will leave that to the music educators, and Peter
can speak to this.
1760 So the first component pays musicians to get into the schools.
1761 The second component was actually suggested to us by Mr. Stigings and
one of his colleague, Brian Knapp, who is a high school educator at the largest
high school in the lower mainland, Killarney, who basically said, you cannot
make this happen at the school level if you don't provide some funding for
curriculum materials to attend these performances. So that is component no.
1762 The third component, in answer to your question about the showcase, was
also not our idea, it was the educators' idea. What they said was, save and
aside from the performances in the schools, what would really kick for the kids
is to have some type of performance showcase where the high school players could
play side-by-side with the pros in a performance venue. The monies specifically
amount to $20,000 a year. It is our rough estimate to pay for the Chan Centre,
to pay for the musicians, the professional musicians who would play at the
concert, and to pay for the sound system that would be required to provision the
1763 Maybe at this stage I will let Peter comment on a couple of these items,
but one thing to be clear is that we have not reported in our CTD expenses that
are attendant to us running the show live on air, to us promoting the show.
Those are indirect. Those are our responsibility.
1764 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: That is part of why I asked the question, to
clarify what is the connect -- and I will have a question about that
too -- between this money to the third parties, the educators, and the
learning materials, and the artists who will perform and work in the clinics,
but also what are you doing internally, and is that part of the event's $150,000
or is there more. So we can come to that when we look at the indirect list as
1765 MR. CALDER: Okay.
1766 Peter, would you like to add to that summary?
1767 MR. STIGINGS: Thank you, Dave.
1768 As a music educator with 25 years experience, now retired and working at
the University of British Columbia as a sessional lecturer and faculty advisor,
I have watched the development of jazz education in our schools for many, many
1769 There have been enormous cuts in the educational budgets. In particular,
these cuts have really affected the arts area. Music educators welcome the
support that has been outlined in this proposal.
1770 I think it is very important that we give serious consideration to
involving professional jazz artists coming into the schools that can act as
mentors, that can perform in front of our young folk, who can provide clinics
and workshops. There have been some badly needed that have been cut in the last
few years, because of the cutbacks in education budgets.
1771 We welcome the opportunity of having this culminate in a real live
performance of having professional jazz musicians standing and sitting side by
side with our young players in a performance venue such as the Chan Centre, not
in a competitive festival, in a non-competitive festival, educational festival
setting, where we are all there, sharing our music together and where the young
players and singers can be rubbing shoulders with professional musicians, of
which we have so many in B.C.
1772 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
1773 On the matter of education then -- we will come back to the
indirect concert support again later. I would like to turn to TechBC now, and
your proposal regarding $350,000 to TechBC.
1774 You describe this in your Application as support in the form of
bursaries, scholarships, foundation grant, I believe. As you know, normally the
Canadian Talent Development Initiative in this regard should be directed to
students in, and I quote from 1-1995-196, "music, journalism, and the arts".
1775 Can you explain to us and clarify how you see the TechBC support, which
you are proposing, which you have described this morning in terms of electronic
instruments, in terms of digital technologies. Can you also give us a little
background why you picked the Technical University of British Columbia, just
newly started, as your focus, and why we should see it as Canadian Talent
Development in music.
1776 MR. CALDER: I would be delighted to. And I agree and understand why it
may take some explanation, because the benefits perhaps are a little richer and
1777 First, our proposal, as outlined in the Supplementary Brief. As I am
sure is the case with other applicants, once your initiatives become public and
you begin to have dialogue, ideas are developed, discussions take place. We have
been very high on TechBC, because the tech in TechBC is technology and there are
three primary disciplines in this new, what is a one-of-a-kind university in
1778 Of the three primary disciplines, one of them is Digital Arts, audio and
video. The other two are related to the web, the internet, information
technology, but one of the three disciplines is digital arts.
1779 We have, through other funding, provided bursaries and scholarships to
TechBC. What that has allowed us to do is generate some deeper dialogue with
them in terms of: We want to get behind this digital arts program; how best to
do that, from the perspective of students coming in, specifically in that
1780 Borne out of that was the TechBC interactivity lab, and it is a
fascinating proposition. The total cost, just for your interest, of making this
lab happen is approximately 1.3 million dollars. That is the capital required to
put all of the technology necessary into the rooms necessary to make this lab
1781 TechBC has already raised a little over $525,000 dollars from the
Canadian Foundation for Innovation. So they have already raised roughly a third,
a little more than a third. Our $350,000 will trigger an additional $395,000
from the B.C. Knowledge Development Fund. I should note, while we covered it in
our oral presentation, our CTD total does not take that into account. I think it
is material to note that under the category of leverage, it does trigger other
funds. So we can get this thing going -- and it is going to be utilized in
two ways that are relevant to your question.
1782 First of all, the students going into that particular discipline come
from Fine Arts backgrounds. They are composers, they are artists, they are
performers, and what they are pursuing at this stage is interactive, it is
digital, one could argue it is the future of pretty much any electronic media
and it should be paid attention to if you are a performer.
1783 So you have relevance immediately to the students in their ability to
access and create/generate performances from the lab. Also, typical of the
university environment, you have performers coming in to work with the students.
George Lewis is one that comes to mind, a trombonist who has played with Count
Basie, is a regular visitor to the marketplace, and will be interacting, doing
seminars with the students there. He is a key leading innovator in terms of
digital authoring, composing. There are others presumably locally who will be
able to avail themselves on the professional front to interact with
1784 So you are dealing with the creative environment. Perhaps an even easier
to understand description of it is -- I am going to ask Tom Keenlyside to
add a couple of words on this front. Tom can give you a little bit about his
background, but one thing Tom and Peter and I all have in common is that in the
mid-70s at UBC, we experienced a very comparable thing, and I will get Tom to
perhaps add to this.
1785 MR. KEENLYSIDE: Hello, everybody.
1786 I am a saxophone player. I have played acoustic music, a lot of jazz and
a lot of other kinds of music, all my life. If you told me 20 years ago that now
I would have a recording studio of my own, which is absolutely choccer-block
full of digital recording gear and pro tools and platforms and max systems and
everything, I would have laughed. The technology and the application of it now
1787 Right now I am working on a television series called "Big Sound", for
which I am doing the music, which is directed by David Steinberg, a fellow from
Winnipeg. To be able to do that and to be able to operate all this stuff, you
have to have a knowledge that would have surprised me years and years ago.
1788 As Dave says, in the 70s they used to work in an electronic music lab on
a big huge thing that looked like it could brew cappuccino and everything else.
It has a patch bay and everything like that, and knobs that you turned and
everything else. Within five years, or less, when the students went in working
on that, they were working on comparable things that were the size that would
fit on a table top. So the actual change in how artists relate to the digital
age, the electronic age, is amazing.
1789 My son is 13 years old. He plays in a band called "GUM", which stands
for "Give Us Money", as I found out. He has a website which his friend the
guitar player, who is 14, has developed. They have musical samples that you can
download from the Internet and everything. So they are totally in tune with
this, and I am pretty excited about the fact that some thought is being put into
putting some money into kind of looking at the technical aspect of it, the
digital aspect of it, because that is where it is all at nowadays.
1790 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you. As you note, imagination is not
wanting when it comes to music of all kinds, and that has been very helpful. Let
me ask you this, though.
1791 If, after due consideration, the Commission did not see this particular
proposal as Canadian Talent Development, would you still make the same
contribution to TechBC?
1792 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes.
1793 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: In terms, then, of your total Canadian Talent
Development that removes, strictly speaking, $350,000 from that total
commitment, would you take that same amount and put it to another recipient and
other third party?
1794 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes. You mean if the TechBC program was not acceptable to
1795 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: That's right -- to maintain your Canadian
Talent Development level.
1796 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes. Definitely.
1797 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, and thank you for that discussion.
It was very helpful.
1798 Continuing again on that last question, I believe you clarified this
this morning but I would ask you to repeat for me. In your Canadian Talent
Development total, there is the $27,000 a year under the CAB plan, and in your
Application you did not indicate who would be the third party recipient.
1799 Am I to understand that it is FACTOR?
1800 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes, it is.
1801 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Do you have any kind of agreement with FACTOR
that that money would, as far as possible, go towards artists from Vancouver and
1802 MR. BEAUDOIN: At this point in time, we don't. However, based on
previous experience with FACTOR, we would be willing of course to earmark that
investment with FACTOR and ask them to direct that money in Vancouver. We
understand from FACTOR that they are open to this approach.
1803 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
1804 Just as a general question on the Canadian Talent Development and then I
think we will take a break -- Madam Chair has indicated that we will be
taking a break shortly.
1805 If you could step back and describe your overall strategy for Canadian
Talent Development and juxtapose that, if you would, with your commitment to
jazz in your normal course of doing business in this community. How would you
1806 MR. BEAUDOIN: I think what we are trying to do here is not only to
respect the wording of the CTD plan, but also the spirit of the CTD plan.
1807 Our radio station will be doing some marketing investment, programming
investment. We think this is part of our business plan. Let me give you some
1808 The "Saturday Night Live" shows. This is going to cost us money. Some
applicants can think this is CTD. We don't think so. This is part of our
programming investment. Some could think, "Are you going to have a website?"
Yes, we will. like most of the major Telemedia markets will. "Are you going to
do some streaming audio?" Yes, we will, as most of our Telemedia radio stations
do. But this is a marketing investment for the station. We do not think this is
part of the CTD. We believe this is part of the business plan.
1809 Producing CDs. Our Montreal radio station just launched a CD last week.
This is a marketing strategy for our Montreal radio station. We do not think
that this is necessarily a CTD.
1810 So we have tried to separate what is our current business programming
marketing investment versus what we should do to support the Canadian music
industry and the broadcast system. We believe that what we are tabling today is
direct investment to support Canadian music industry and build the broadcast
system. And this is quality.
1811 If I may add, Madam Commissioner, on the quantity, one could ask, is
this sufficient? We believe -- and again I am referring to the direct
investment of 2.5 million. We believe that this is a very significant investment
for a stand-alone FM station entering Vancouver. Why do we believe that? Why are
we proposing a 2 million dollar investment?
1812 We have heard yesterday that the average FM station in this market will
generate revenues of around $10 million, and we know and we have heard that
again yesterday, that the PBIT -- the average per station is about $4
million. There are two ways that we can enter the Vancouver market: through a
new licence, or through acquisition.
1813 If we are having to make an acquisition, on an average basis, what would
be the cost of acquiring an FM station in Vancouver? Some could say $20 million,
and I heard people saying that is low, and I would agree with that. I think this
1814 If you just use this $4 million and apply in multiple between 8 and
12 -- let's say 10, as an average -- the market value is probably
closer to 40 million, and let's use the CRTC's own ruling and policy, of
that 6 per cent benefit test, and that is what we have done. Six per cent of 40
million is essentially $2.5 million. This is using CRTC's policy, the kind of
investment that we would have made through acquiring a new radio station in
1815 Why should we be penalized if, instead of acquiring a radio station, we
are successful in obtaining a new licence?
1816 This is why, Madam Commissioner, we came to the fact that a $2.5 million
contribution was in line with the CRTC's expectations, and especially if this
$2.5 million is directly invested here in the local community, directly to
support the Canadian music industry, and link in building a strong broadcast
1817 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
1818 We can take a break now, Madam Chair, if you wish.
1819 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will take 15 minutes, and reconvene at 10:30.
--- Upon recessing at 1013 / Suspension à 1013
--- Upon resuming at 1045 / Reprise à 1045
1820 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry we were a little late getting back. We will
1821 Commissioner Pennefather.
1822 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chair.
1823 Rebonjour. I have a question on employment equity. Perhaps you could
clarify for me.
1824 Schedule III in your Application should describe employment equity
initiatives. I assume you have employees, over a hundred there, under the
Federal Act, but Schedule III indicates you have no initiatives in this regard,
quote. Could you explain?
1825 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes.
1826 We would be ready to file, Madam Commissioner, Schedule III, as
mentioned in our documentation, if it is appropriate. I have it in front of
1827 Essentially, we have in Schedule III here, a detailed plan on employment
equity. If I may just highlight very quickly, with T3 objectives.
1828 Objective 1 is on the hiring process, to ensure that in considering
candidates for hiring or promotion in on-air positions, we have key actions that
are in place to address this number 1 objective, favour at the hiring level.
1829 Objective no. 2 is on the training and development process. We also have
actions here that are describing Schedule III to meet this objective.
1830 Objective 3 is to ensure that our management and our staff is well
sensitized on the employment equity issues and how we can address this.
1831 If appropriate, Madam Commissioner, I would be willing to file this
1832 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Mr. Beaudoin. I will ask Madam
Chair on that point later. I appreciate the clarification.
1833 Continuing on now on programming, let me ask for another clarification.
Canadian content, page 14 of today's presentation. You describe there the
process of your Application in this regard, which includes an application for
Category 2 at a content level of 35 per cent. You describe the new content
strategies and a deficiency letter dated August 14, 2000, in which you confirm
your specialty format and 70 per cent of the music will come from sub-category
1834 In this paragraph you also say you are committed to fulfil 35 per cent
Canadian content, a commitment as originally filed.
1835 It is our understanding that in the response to the deficiency letter in
which you indicated your choice for the specialty format, that you indicated a
Canadian content of 25 per cent. Can you explain if your comment today
represents a change in your Application, as gazetted?
1836 MR. BEAUDOIN: If I may first remind the Commission that in May, as most
of us, we did file for a Smooth Jazz format. At that time, this format was under
Category 2 and, as we all know, Category 2 is a 35 per cent Canadian content
level obligation. In discussion -- there was no discussion, I guess, we had
to respect that.
1837 When the deficiency letter came, and following the June 21st
implementation of the New Content category, we realized that this format was no
longer Category 2 but the fact that 70 per cent would be from Category 3 would
be, therefore, a specialty format. On the current CRTC policy, this format
should call for 10 per cent Canadian Content.
1838 We had, I guess, discussion within our management team and programming
people, and we thought that from 10 per cent to 35 per cent, one could say it is
fairly bold. So that was the discussion.
1839 We said, however, we are convinced that we can go significantly above
the 10 per cent. There was no doubt within our management team that we can go
significantly above the 10 per cent, even if CRTC's policy was for 10 per cent.
So we did file the 25 per cent. We have talked to the staff of the CRTC. We have
to recognize that there was some confusion between August -- so we filed
the 25 per cent in good faith.
1840 Today, we have to recognize that. And, Madam Commissioner, we do
recognize that as filed in response to the deficiency letter, that we are
committed to 25 per cent.
1841 What we are saying today is simply that, because of this new policy and
this change within this 90-day window, we would be willing to come back to the
original filing of our Application in May. Why is that? Because since then and
in the last few weeks or few months we have been continuing investigating the
music supply and so on. Not only do we think that the 25 is fine, but I think we
could go as high as 35.
1842 What we are saying today, Madam Commissioner, is that we would be
willing to respect the original commitment of 35.
1843 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Mr. Beaudoin, the original commitment of
35 was for Category 2.
1844 MR. BEAUDOIN: Within of course, Madam Commissioner, Category 3. It has
been changed through the new policy since then, as Category 3.
1845 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Your Application, as gazetted, so that I am
clear, was for Specialty Format, Category 3, for 25 per cent. That was what was
gazetted. So today are you saying that the 35 per cent Canadian content is (a)
for Category 3 and (b) that represents a change in your Application as
1846 MR. BEAUDOIN: My answer to that is yes. When we are referring to the 35
per cent, Madam Commissioner, it would be 35 per cent for both the Category II
and Category III.
1847 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thirty-five per cent for both; in other words,
Category 2, 35 per cent, as per the regs, which would be 30 per cent of your
music programming as a Specialty format at 70-30, but your Category 3
specifically, your Canadian content in Category 3, sub-category 34, is that
Canadian content percentage 25 per cent or 35 per cent?
1848 MR. BEAUDOIN: In our official filing application, as in the August
document, it is currently at 25, and we are willing to respect this. However, if
we have the authorization by the CRTC for the Category 3, we will accept to
increase it to 35, as per the original programming thinking that was filed in
1849 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So the end result is 35 per cent of Category
3, sub-category 34, which is a change from your Application as gazetted, which
was 25 per cent. Is that correct?
1850 MR. BEAUDOIN: If the CRTC, and it is up to the CRTC to decide if this
amendment is acceptable or not, but if this amendment was acceptable by the
CRTC, we would accept, as a condition of licence, to honour a 35 per cent
Canadian content level for Category 3.
1851 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Mr. Beaudoin. We will come back to
that point later perhaps with legal. May I ask you another question, though,
related to that generally.
1852 Having discussed with you this change, it is clear that, generally
speaking, there has been some discussion around Category 3, and I am just
talking about Category 3 now, in terms of Canadian content, some saying how much
is possible in terms of Canadian content, some saying not so much as possible.
It would help us to have your rationale behind your thinking that you could
accomplish that level of Canadian content which, as you just explained, is a
change from your original application.
1853 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes, and, Madam Commissioner, I think this will also help
to understand why we would be willing to take a more significant commitment on
the Canadian content, because we have done some significant work over the last
few weeks on this.
1854 I would like to ask Jason Mann to talk about the work that we have done
in investigating not only music supply but also other work in music
1855 MR. MANN: Thank you, Claude.
1856 As Claude mentioned, we have done some significant research. We took it
upon ourselves to develop a music scheduling database of Smooth Jazz Music,
Category 3, and built a sample week, including Category 2 in the Mix as well, of
1857 In the sample week, as the station has proposed, we found 182 distinct
Canadian artists who are scheduled, representing 291 distinct Canadian titles.
With 182 distinct Canadian jazz artists, we were able to generate a music log
representing a weekly Canadian content level of 36.8 per cent, without concern
for burn of any one title or any one individual artist.
1858 Another highlight might be there was no material difference between the
highest played Canadian songs and the highest played international songs. I have
the schedule in my hand here. I do have the list of the 182 Canadian artists
with me, and would be prepared to file that, if the Commission so deems so.
1859 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you. I will defer to Madam Chair
regarding that filing, but that answers my question. Thank you.
1860 Technical matters, one of our favourites in this discussion. As you
know, other applicants have filed to use this frequency, 94.5, in Vancouver. One
of these applicants is the CBC, which proposed to use this frequency for its "la
Chaîne culturelle" transmitter.
1861 You have not proposed any alternative frequencies that might be suitable
either for your application or for the CBC.
1862 Have you or your engineering consultants conducted studies to find
alternate frequencies that could possibly be used in Vancouver, either for your
application or for the CBC and, if so, what are your findings?
1863 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes, Madam Commissioner. We have asked our consultant to
investigate this issue. I have with me the feasibility study, that I would be
pleased to file if you think it is appropriate.
1864 Essentially what we have asked them is another FM frequency and, if so,
what could it be.
1865 There is no doubt that the 94.5 frequency remains the best frequency,
ensuring the larger coverage of the area. Therefore, we submit that this
frequency should belong to one of the stations that could attract the larger
1866 Therefore, we submit that CBC could envision other options to their
proposal. According to this study, the first solution that could be investigated
is the frequency of 88.1, which could be used by the CBC. Without getting into
the details -- and I have to apologize, our engineer had last-minute
difficulties and I am not a technical expert, so please -- but I am sure
your people will be able to verify all this. The 88.1 frequency could be used by
the CBC and yet reach and provide sufficient coverage against the francophone in
1867 Another option that could be investigated for the CBC project could be
the use of an AM frequency, while using the current FM frequency for their
Chaîne culturelle, and use the AM frequency for La Chaîne première.
1868 We have this document, and this document could be filed, if it is
appropriate, and that is what we found.
1869 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Let me ask you, though. You are saying that
those are possibilities you are proposing for CBC. In so saying, I think you
said that 94.5 is the more appropriate frequency for your application. Can you
explain why, in your opinion, 94.5 would be granted to you rather than to the
CBC or to any other applicant at this hearing.
1870 MR. BEAUDOIN: Purely on the technical front, the 94.5 Class C, in terms
of footprint and coverage capacity -- we have been well informed, I think,
by our consultants and engineers -- that is the frequency that will ensure
the larger coverage and the best coverage of the area. This is why we believe
that this should belong to a station that will be appealing to the larger
portions of the population.
1871 On the Radio-Canada issue, I guess we all have to appreciate the
Radio-Canada mandate, and respect the mission of providing high quality service
throughout this country to francophone, and I think that is not the real debate.
I think we are respectful of that and understand that, and I do not think that
is the issue.
1872 The issue is, could they achieve that mandate through another frequency,
understanding that this 94.5 frequency is the one that will be able to serve
part of the population. Again, I am not an engineer but based on the feasibility
study that we have, it seems that the CBC could achieve this goal of providing
on two frequencies, both for La Première chaîne and La chaîne culturelle, these
services to the francophone.
1873 Without getting into the technical aspects, I think for us that is how
we should reflect and investigate, and we have heard other applicants yesterday
providing other technical options. So it seems that not only the one that we
have been told by our own engineer, but also other applicants also could propose
other ways to allow the Radio-Canada group to yet meet the mission and their
1874 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: What about this scenario. If 94.5 in Vancouver
were not available to you, would you be ready and wiling to use another
frequency, if another one was found for your proposed station?
1875 MR. BEAUDOIN: The answer is yes, subject, of course that the engineers
would confirm that that would be acceptable from a technical standpoint, but
based on the assumption that there was another frequency that would be
acceptable, we would be willing to consider it.
1876 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Would you be willing to use an AM frequency
for your proposed station?
1877 MR. BEAUDOIN: Not for this music orientated format.
1878 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Mr. Beaudoin.
1879 My final area was really to go back to a matter raised in the
presentations by you and your colleagues this morning, and that is what I have
termed the Telemedia strategy. Your Application schedule certainly brings this
out as well.
1880 In several areas in the Supplementary Brief you refer to some synergies
between major and minor markets. Here in British Columbia, I think it is a
component of your presentation today as well.
1881 Can you be more specific on what you mean by these synergies?
1882 MR. BEAUDOIN: I think this is a very key element in our Application.
Following the acquisition of Okanagan-Skeena group of course today we have a
fabulous group of stations allowing us to reach about half a million population
in British Columbia.
1883 I would like to ask Betty Selin to talk about what we mean by synergies
in the news front, and I could maybe come back and provide you with additional
comments in the management and sales front.
1885 MS SELIN: Thank you, Claude.
1886 We have right now four what we consider regional news centres. Those are
in the Peace Region, in northern B.C., the Okanagan Shuswap and in the Kootenay.
While we are independent and broadcast on each of our stations, we share
resources. What I mean by that is -- maybe I could just give you an
example. It might be best.
1887 For example, during the Salmon Arm forest fire, many of the 7,000 people
evacuated during that fire. They were evacuated to Vernon, which is the
community where I live and broadcast in. So I personally went to Salmon Arm to
get the information on the air for those people who were concerned about their
homes. But not only did I broadcast in Vernon every day live, I was also able to
give telephone reports to our stations in Kelowna and Penticton who have family
in Salmon Arm. So we use the resources on a regional basis. That is what we are
talking about when we talk about synergy.
1888 Frankly, there is a big hole in our regional system, and it is below our
mainland. A lot of news happens here, and we don't have a Telemedia station in
Vancouver. So we think there is a hole in our regional news system in B.C.
1889 MR. BEAUDOIN: Betty, you may want to expand on these four newsrooms, as
you see it and --
1890 MS SENN: Okay. Thanks, Claude.
1891 Basically, they each operate independently, but what we do is share
stories, like the example I just gave you. We also share ideas every day. We
have, through fax and e-mail, a system set up where each day we share, with our
other B.C. stations, the kind of news and information that we are doing that
day. We think that Vancouver is missing. The reality is that we do not have a
station in Vancouver that we have editorial control over.
1892 At Telemedia, we have a philosophy and a style of news, and we believe
in putting the newsmakers on the air. Right now, we do not have that ability,
and we would really like to be able to share our stories with Vancouverites, but
we also want a Telemedia perspective on what is happening in the lower mainland,
because frankly it affects often the rest of us around the province. We do not
have that, and we would certainly like to have that ability.
1893 MR. BEAUDOIN: If I may, just to complete, on the synergies and how we
see it. This is a very important element. There is a new system gathering the
information that we have. And these stations reach about half a million in
population, as I said. Realizing, of course, that Vancouver is 2 million in
population, you can appreciate how this Vancouver market could become a key
anchor to all these smaller communities that we serve. That brings us to
1894 We believe that, even as a stand-alone FM station in Vancouver, we are
going to be able to take advantage of regional sales by connecting Vancouver to
our regional stations, marketing synergies also that we can envision.
1895 The way we sort of picture this is that we have this great group of
small market stations that reaches the population. If we could have the
opportunity, through the addition of an FM station in Vancouver, to connect,
really connect these smaller stations to a major market station, I think what we
are achieving is strengthening regional radio in B.C. Think about news. Think
about programming exchanges, if it is appropriate. Think about sales synergies.
I think that is where we bring, in our view, a very significant added value
through the addition of a Vancouver station for Telemedia.
1896 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Mr. Beaudoin.
1897 Thank you, Madam Chair. Those are my questions.
1898 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Pennefather.
1899 Commissioner Cram had some questions.
1900 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I am getting back to my obsession, the "bang for the
1901 You will recall in Calgary I talked about the sort of effectiveness of
the money spent in terms of what we see either on the screen or what we hear on
radio. I have done my normal analysis -- as you know, my math is not that
hot. I have a ratio of 1.5-to-1 between what I would call the upper pyramid and
the lower pyramid, the lower end of the pyramid.
1902 The Jazz Festival and FACTOR add up to the 1.5, which is direct to the
top of the pyramid in terms of artists in jazz. Then, a factor of 1, which
includes the school initiatives, the material, and B.C. Tech.
1903 When I look at the lower end of the pyramid -- right now, it is
1.5-to-1, the ratio of money spent to the top end to the lower end, but at the
end of the day, when we look at what we get out of money going into the schools
and the materials and TechBC, would it really be 1.5-to-0.5 in terms of
effectiveness, or -- what do you think?
1904 MR. BEAUDOIN: I think we have -- it is interesting that you look at
it this way.
1905 What you call the lower end of the pyramid, the first million dollars,
we should think about it as a grassroots action. And it is probably less
expensive to have results -- everything is relative, but my point, what I
am reflecting on, is that because the plan is really a grassroots approach, we
do not have to pay the students in order to reach them, I think we can --
let's not minimize the impact on a mid-term basis of this plan.
1906 What you call the upper end of the pyramid, maybe it is also a question
of now we are getting into allowing these people to perform, to have their first
experience, to showcase. I guess as they grow and hopefully get to that level,
maybe it could also require a more significant investment.
1907 I will let my expert reply.
1908 MR. CALDER: It is always dangerous to be pegged as an expert!
1909 Having experienced this line of questioning in Calgary a couple of weeks
ago, I am going to desperately attempt to avoid criticing your math. However, if
I were to add up, using the same criteria, the very first thing I would do is to
say in the Jazz in Schools program, virtually all of the $54,000 per year is to
professional musicians, period. That adds up to $388,000.
1910 If I were to look at what we propose to do with the Jazz Showcase, of
the $20,000 per year, I suspect that the majority of that money will end up in
the hands of the professional players who are going to be paid to be at the
showcase. The other hard cost being the Chan Centre, at the risk of having a
little wishful thinking here, one would hope that other corporate citizens are
going to come along and get behind this, but let's be conservative and say that
perhaps 100,000 of that 140,000 is going to go directly into the hands of
professional players who are playing alongside the students.
1911 So, Commissioner Cram, my attempt at adding this up says the score is 2
to 0.5. I am not so sure that I would want to dive into the dialogue about the
immediate impact of what goes on TechBC, because I acknowledge this is capital,
and it puts gear in place.
1912 There is a key point that you heard from Mr. Keenlyside, even on that
front. Tom is doing television shows, and he is surrounded by digital gear. The
vast majority of players in this marketplace do not have that luxury. So if they
are going to access and compose and create right now -- not tomorrow, but
right now -- they need venues, one could argue public venues, in which they
could go and do so.
1913 I will go along as the expert to say 2 versus 0.5, but one could really
make the case for this other component.
1914 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I take your point. Thanks.
1915 The next issue is the Jazz in Schools and the Association of Jazz
Educators -- I forget the acronym -- that you are working through. Is
the Association, the proper name which I forget, is it throughout all of the
schools in the Vancouver area? I am sure there are different systems. Is it sort
of an association of all of the different school systems?
1916 MR. CALDER: I am going to let Mr. Stigings address what the options
of distribution might be. I think it is safe to say, given the meetings I had in
Calgary versus the meetings I have had in Vancouver, in Calgary you have two
school districts, public and Catholic --
1917 COMMISSIONER CRAM: There is a Christian and a private and something
1918 MR. CALDER: Exactly. So in Vancouver, of course you have this
multiplicity of districts. We have met with the Vancouver School Board and the
Superintendent and Assistant Superintendent who are responsible for directing
Fine Arts allocation. So we are aware of the fact that the monies can be routed
by school board directly to this Jazz in Schools program. That is one
1919 I will get Peter to address the differences between the IAJA as a
possible initiator of this money. The third option of course would be the B.C.
MEA, which Peter is also past president of. I am sorry to have you suffer from
acronym overload here. Peter can clarify those organizations and how that could
be deployed. I think that is what you are looking for.
1921 MR. STIGINGS: Thank you, Dave.
1922 The music educators to the mainland school districts all have their own
entity. For example, Vancouver has the Vancouver School Music Teachers
Association. Burnaby has a similar organization. And I see us dialoguing with
those respective organizations that are active and functioning in each of the
1923 To the larger picture, there is, for lack of a better word, a mother
organization, the B.C. Music Educators Association, which all these district
organizations feed into. Of course the B.C. Music Educators is representing the
1924 As a past president of the B.C. Music Educators, we have been in regular
dialogue and communication with that organization, and we have their support.
They are very happy to know that Telemedia is willing to provide support into
school systems in the lower mainland in the listing area they hope to broadcast
1925 To go further afield, there is also another organization, the
International Association of Jazz Educators. That is another organization in
which many music educators in this province to belong to, which is strictly a
volunteer organization in terms of whether the educators actually register and
belong to that organization. They have been very active in encouraging jazz
education throughout the world, and encouraging the promotion of curriculum
materials to be developed in respect of constituencies.
1926 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Is it your intention, Mr. Calder, that the money
would go to all schools, no matter what the religion, no matter if it is private
or separate or -- is that the intention of the whole Jazz in Schools
1927 MR. CALDER: One of the things -- the short answer to that is yes.
But I would like to elaborate just a wee bit, because we have done a lot of
background work on this.
1928 As most major cities in Canada, you do have situations where there are
haves and have-nots in terms of school districts. We are aware of that, but the
people who are even more aware of that are the educators themselves, the BCMEA,
and the jazz educators in the lower mainland. That was the same situation in
Calgary, although in Calgary it was part of Calgary to part of Calgary within
the same school district. Here, it tends to be quite a variance city to
1929 What that is likely to dictate is there may be some initiatives that
will not come from Telemedia, because that is not our area of expertise, but
initiatives from the educators to say: We really should execute this type of
performance to really pump the kids up in this particular school district,
because it is an area that is underserved for this particular type of
initiative, versus another location that might benefit more by putting a single
musician in to go one on one on the training front, doing those clinics, simply
because more of the kids are in more music programs, that are taking private
lessons, and so on.
1930 I think it is safe to say our intent is to see it as widely impactive as
possible, but we would of course be delighted to see the educators themselves
direct where that would take place.
1931 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Mann, I only have one question. When you were
talking about the distinct Canadian artists and distinct Canadian titles, does
it cost more to air Canadian artists, either in terms of money or revenue that
you cannot earn, as opposed to artists from anywhere else of Canada?
1932 MR. MANN: I am not sure if I understand the question.
1933 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Does CANCOM cost money?
1934 MR. MANN: All the music that we play is subject to a fee.
1935 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Does Cancon cost more money, either in lost revenues
or in purchase costs, than music from --
1936 MR. MANN: Not historically, not with any radio station that I have been
involved with at the programming level. We have not had to pay extra or more
money for it.
1937 MR. BEAUDOIN: If I may add, on the sales front.
1938 I guess there is no easy answer to that. One could say the fact that we
have to respect some Cancon level, we might not be as performing as a radio
business, and therefore losing listeners, and therefore losing money. One could
say no, this is a playing field for all the radio stations, everything being
equal, so at the end of the day the listeners are -- it is part of life,
and I do not think you lose money.
1939 Based on our experience, I think the rulings that we have in this
country, both for French content or Canadian content, I think provides some kind
of level playing field. I think it would be dangerous to say that you lose money
because of Cancon.
1940 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you very much.
1941 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
1942 I have a couple of questions. First of all, on your employment equity
report that you talked about earlier and offered to file, and I appreciate
hearing it, I wonder if you could give me some of the highlights of it. I am
sure you were here yesterday when I said to Mr. Slaight that I was sort of
struck by the look of this room and the business, and we talked about four
designated groups and certain initiatives that have been undertaken by
broadcasters, whether it is CWC, and some of the other things. They do not seem
to have translated into visible minorities or women in senior management in
1943 I may be wrong, but I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about
your company and what your specific goals are, and how you really -- and I
say this not to you, but to all of them, what does it really mean and how
serious are the goals?
1944 It strikes me that you want to reflect your audience, but maybe you
could elaborate on that.
1945 MR. BEAUDOIN: It is a challenge. Let's recognize that. I don't have with
me today, unfortunately, the data that were filed to HRDC, but we have to
recognize that it is a challenge to have results -- not to make the effort,
but to have results in terms of employment equity.
1946 Making the effort, I think a company like ours, through the years I
think management and staff is sensitive to the challenge and respectful of what
we have established in terms of framework to favour employment equity.
1947 The results, and you are probably right to highlight that, are
1948 When I look at a company like ours, I think we are making progress on
different fronts. I look, for example, in the sales area. I am amazed to see how
many women are now part of our sales team. I don't know if Dave has some numbers
in B.C., but I know in some areas -- that is a way to grow and become
senior management. We have a lot of --
1949 In the sales area, we have been making some very good progress. In other
areas, it has been much more difficult. Also, I found it varies from one
province to the other sometimes. On the on-air staff, for example, I think we
have been more successful in Quebec to have a much more significant presence of
women on-air -- for example, to take one versus other areas of the country.
Why is that? It is difficult to answer.
1950 On the visible minorities, of course it is even more difficult.
1951 I do not have the data in front of me, but what I could share with you,
I think one has to recognize, although I think over the last few years we have
been sensitized to that issue, I think we have been acting in good faith and
making a real effort to make progress.
1952 I heard your comment yesterday, and we have to recognize that the
results, unfortunately, are probably not yet at the level that we would expect.
I some of my colleagues want to add, please do so.
1953 MR. CALDER: At the risk of taking a couple of steps to a few questions
that came a while ago, a couple of things come to mind when I hear your
1954 I have been in the business for 20 years. Like one of my colleagues
yesterday responded to this question, absolutely I see significant progress on a
lot of fronts. I sit on one of BCIT's advisory boards, and we have seen that
this sort of iterance in terms of how diverse their choice between journalism
and operations -- for example, 20 years ago you did not see very many women
going into BCIT's television operations program. So the good news is there is
progress there at entry level.
1955 Up until last year, my responsibilities were for primarily working with
the team that was in charge of small and medium market operations in B.C. and
Alberta. I have no problem sharing with you wonderful success stories of where
our senior female managers have gone to. The answer is, they have gone to other
companies in major markets, much to my chagrin, but pleasure at the same
1956 They come from all areas. We have had sales managers, we have had
incredible talent on air. We have had television news anchors from our small
market stations in Dawson Creek and Terrace. So the good news is, there are some
incredible talent that is moving its way up through the ranks.
1957 I am happy to tell you that in our Tony Radio West group we have a
number of very senior female managers. One of my four cluster managers is an
incredibly talented lady -- I am not about to share her name here when all
my competitors are in the room -- and our group news director, Betty,
obviously is here with us.
1958 Roughly, I would say the balance in sales in the West is probably 60-40.
There are still a few more men than women, but it is getting awfully close to
50-50. But we are really the feeder system, if you will. One of the things that
delights me about seeing us take some initiative through major market operations
is from an employment perspective we will be able to help our own talent that we
are growing migrate to our own stations.
1960 MS SELIN: From the news perspective, it is getting easier to hire women.
More women are becoming educated in the news field. For example, I don't keep
track personally but I just did a quick calculation, at Okanagan-Shuswap
Regional Centre we have 11 employees, 6 of them are women. So I think that from
the news side we are making some significant progress.
1961 We also, as a company, have decided that we need to go outside and tell
people in those groups about the opportunities available. I am actually just
waiting for a confirmation date to speak to the North Okanagan First Nations
Employment Services Group, to just let them know that there are career
opportunities available, because they don't seem to realize that broadcasting is
an area that they should look at for education because there are employment
opportunities out there. Companies like Telemedia are ready and waiting to hire
them once they are educated. So we have taken that step, to let people know
about the career opportunities available.
1962 THE CHAIRPERSON: (Off-microphone) is one area that certainly visible
minorities, aboriginals or others. Do you feel, as a federally regulated
company, and one that is using the public airwaves to do your business, any
special responsibility to be really proactive and take the initiative in these
areas. I really mean in terms of seeking out the four designated groups.
1963 MR. BEAUDOIN: My simple answer would be, Madam Chair, that an
opportunity like today, being challenged or asking for comments publicly is a
good way to remind us about our responsibilities.
1964 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
1965 One other area, and I talked about this a bit with Mr. Slate yesterday,
and that is the whole issue of ownership, and local ownership, and large
companies operating here in British Columbia.
1966 This is a very profitable market, the Vancouver market, underserved in
terms of what we have heard, in terms of FM licences. I know your financial
projections show you profitable in Year 2. We do not regulate the activities of
any given corporation in terms of its corporate behaviour, in terms of the
extent to which it engages in a community. And I am not talking here about CTV,
and I am not talking about benefits, and I am not talking about on-air
programming. I am talking about as a corporation how you might behave.
1967 So you are a Montreal based corporation. You have acquired a lot of
stations in British Columbia through the OSG acquisition and Nornet, and are
looking to do this. I just wonder how you approached the markets in which you
operate, and I am not talking just about being a good local broadcaster --
put that aside -- but just as a corporate citizen and how you view
corporate citizenship in the markets, that are not where your head office
1968 I think everybody knows that where a head office is benefits greatly
from this kind of activity, so I wonder if you could just tell me a little bit
about your philosophy in that area.
1969 MR. BEAUDOIN: Madam Chair, having the privilege to have the owner of the
company just sitting on my left, if I may, I would like to ask Nanon to make
some comments on that.
1970 MS DE GASPÉ BEAUBIEN: I that is a very delicate question on one hand. I
would not want the CRTC to disqualify if we were ever to apply for an Ontario
licence because none of the shareholders' owners don't reside there. That would
be a question.
1971 There is no question that on a personal basis I have to say that living
out west, I definitely bring a different flavour to the table when I sit at our
outside board with my two other brothers, and my experience out here really adds
1972 I think that a company like ours, that is a national company, definitely
benefits from having owners residing in the west and owners in the east. So I
think there is a sense of responsibility that comes with ownership and residing,
I would have to say, on a personal basis, does help.
1973 MR. BEAUDOIN: Hugh McKinnon might want to add some reflections on
1974 MR. McKINNON: Thanks, Claude.
1975 As a former owner of a group of stations here in western Canada, local
ownership is something that is very near and dear to me.
1976 My family, as you know, has been involved for 30 years, and I have been
involved for 20. We have always had a strong belief that local ownership is
vital to the strength of radio.
1977 Over the last few years, we saw the consolidation of radio and realized
that the landscape of radio is changing, and it was virtually impossible for an
owner to live in every community that they own radio stations. What is really
really important to us was the fact that companies must empower their people in
local areas, so that they don't feel the head office is Vancouver, Montreal or
Toronto. They must feel that the local town is their head office.
1978 One of the things that we try to do, in Nornet and in Okanagan-Skeena,
and one of the reasons I am still part, as an owner, still part of the Telemedia
management team, is the fact that they empower their local managers to feel that
they take ownership in their community and are involved in their radio
1979 The other thing, when you talk about the objectives of what stations do
within the communities. Broadcasters tend to be humble when it comes to this, in
a lot of areas. We do things on an ongoing basis, we get involved in the
community, whether it be public service announcements -- especially in
small markets, we are, in a lot of cases -- I used to call it the Community
Bulletin Board. We are attached to the community, and we have always taken the
fact that, number one, our news has to be local, our people have to be local and
relevant to the area, and we are filled with that.
1980 All things being equal, I think local ownership should be brought into
the equation, but I don't think now in this landscape that it can be the
1981 THE CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps I should clarify, just so you understand.
1982 There is no question that we are undergoing a period of consolidation,
and not just in this industry, in lots of them. What that has led to is in fact
a loss of local ownership. I am not suggesting we turn back time or that it is
necessarily a bad thing. And I am not saying one way or another that it is going
to affect how stations operate.
1983 The question is, is there an interest to the country in having
diversified ownership, geographically and regionally, and I am talking about not
just how well a broadcaster can serve local communities -- I don't take
issue with that. I am really talking about the presence of a head office, and
what it means to the growth and development of any province, city, or whatever.
And I am talking about what is going to be a very profitable station for, let's
say for the sake of this discussion, the Smooth Jazz applicants.
1984 There is going to be a lot of profits made, and to what extent are the
profits reinvested in the community and not just moved elsewhere. Again, it is
not necessarily just the issue of ownership if in fact corporations -- and
these are not areas we regulate, so I want to be clear and I don't
1985 How do you view that, as now a big player in British Columbia, how do
you view your responsibilities to this community as a whole, aside from whatever
commitments there may be here with CTV and local programming, etc.
1986 MR. BEAUDOIN: I can see the question you are raising. I guess maybe two
1987 One is, yes, we see a lot of consolidation, but at the end of the day,
when we look, for example, into the media industry of all the major players, one
could say that, when you think about it, you probably have today what we have
today, a fair distribution of, to use your words, head office. One could say, I
would like to see more in Montreal, and someone else could say, I would like to
see more in Vancouver and less in Toronto, and we could all agree with that.
Maybe we have already some kind of distribution of head offices across the
1988 Beyond the head offices, is it not a risk to ask the question in that
sense? I was in the room yesterday when you made the comment that, yes, but
where is the head office? It may be more easier to have more community
involvement and give back more to the community.
1989 Beyond that, maybe we are privileged with the kind of business we are
in, that maybe in that kind of business maybe it is not as significant an issue.
I would like to reinforce what Hugh McKinnon said, especially with radio
being -- radio depends, at 70 to 80 per cent, depending on the size of the
market, to local revenue. It is managed locally. It is produced locally. It is
such, in that specific case of radio, such a local business, I would like to
say, and my colleague could confirm that to you, the success of this company
won't occur by the head office of Toronto and Montreal. The success happens in
each of our radio stations, and I really mean it. I really mean it. This is
where the action is, and this is where we can be successful.
1990 Maybe in the case of radio -- I cannot speak on behalf of the other
media -- I think the issue of the head office, just to take a picture,
might not be as significant, because of the nature of our business.
1991 THE CHAIRPERSON: And what about profits?
1992 MR. BEAUDOIN: There are many ways to look at it. Today, for example, our
western division is far behind, far behind, our major market stations in the
eastern part of the country. It is good to see that there is some fair balance,
and maybe we can share not only values but financial resources too.
1993 THE CHAIRPERSON: So at this point in your operation, the investment is
happening by the head office into western operations as opposed to the other way
around. I do not want to get too distracted in this area, because it is
really -- it is just an overall view.
1994 What you were saying is that your western operations are not doing so
well, so in fact the investment of profits is going into the west from the east
at this point in the development of your corporation.
1995 MR. BEAUDOIN: Yes, and especially a company like ours, following this
very recent acquisition, as you can envision, especially for a company like ours
is a very significant financial support.
1996 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
1997 Commissioner Cram.
1998 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I know a broadcaster who has a policy of corporate
donations, that they will only give corporate donations in the places in which
they have stations. They give them in a type of a pro rata way. I believe that
is somewhat what Commissioner Gauer is getting to, that the corporate donations,
the benefits of the profits, do you have such a policy?
1999 MR. BEAUDOIN: Our policy is fairly simple. First of all, we consider
that we make a significant contribution to the Canadian music industry, and I
would like to share with you that this is directly linked with the presence of
our radio stations by area.
2000 If I may, I would just remind the CRTC, for example, that following the
acquisition of OKS, there was a significant benefit test attached to this
acquisition. The investment following this acquisition is directly related to
British Columbia. This, in our view, is something that we should keep in the
back of our minds.
2001 What a company like ours favours the most is not necessarily the
cash-out contribution but, more importantly, what we can do to support causes
through our radio stations and, through this policy, principles. I think we do,
therefore, ensure a good balance throughout the country, throughout the
2002 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
2004 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
2005 Brièvement, Monsieur Beaudoin. You have discussed frequency 88.1 as
possibly suitable for CBC. In your studies, did you find other frequencies that
would be available, for you, let's say?
2006 MR. BEAUDOIN: The study that I have in front of me, legal counsel, no.
It was specifically to identify this 88.1 frequency.
2007 MR. RHÉAUME: So when you answered the question from Commissioner
Pennefather that you would accept another frequency, you don't have any idea if
there are any available out there?
2008 MR. BEAUDOIN: Based on the documents that I have in front of me, yes. Of
course I heard the comments yesterday but, based on MDS's own feasibility study,
this is what I have in front of me.
2009 MR. RHÉAUME: So it is pointless to ask you at this time if your project
would be viable in terms of business plan and CTD commitment on another
frequency, because you did not look at that. Is that a fair statement?
2010 MR. BEAUDOIN: I would nuance this. I would say that the business plan
would be affected if we were going to be on a frequency that would be providing
a different coverage. However, that does not mean that we would not have an
acceptable business plan.
2011 MR. RHÉAUME: But you might have to revise your Application. That is all
I am saying.
2012 MR. BEAUDOIN: In terms of financial projection, yes, we could -- we
might have to revise this.
2013 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.
2014 Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
2015 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
2016 MR. BEAUDOIN: If I may , legal counsel. I am not implying here that we
would be revising our CTD commitment. We would respect this commitment.
2017 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
2018 MR. BEAUDOIN: May I make a final remark?
2019 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mais oui!
2020 MR. BEAUDOIN: Last night, in thinking about my closing remarks, I
proposed that maybe for my final two minute remarks that I should maybe stand up
and sing, and they said, no, Claude, don't do that, and Carol Welsman is much
better looking than you are!
2021 So I think why do we believe that this is the appropriate answer? Five
reasons. When I say five reasons, I am looking at each of you. You know what, I
have one reason for each of you.
2022 To you, Mr. Cardozo, a new news voice. And I think this is very
significant. In this market, you have the opportunity to add a new news voice
that will bring diversity.
2023 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I anted to sing!
--- Laughter / Rires
2024 MR. BEAUDOIN: My second reason would be for you, Madam Cram: A specialty
format, that will also not only create diversity, but maintain diversity. And
you know, because you were there three weeks ago, what we mean by being
committed to the Smooth Jazz format.
2025 Monsieur Demers, évidemment you may wonder about a stand-alone FM in
such a competitive market. We are in competitive markets in many parts of this
country, and we have the strength and the resources to succeed as a stand-alone
2026 Madam Pennefather, you asked a lot of questions about the CTD, and you
are so right. And I hope what you heard from us was that beyond quantity, we
believe that we bring quality. We say that because I think we respect the spirit
of what should be a CTD commitment, i.e., a program that is supportive to the
Canadian music directly and locally, but also build a broadcast system.
2027 The fifth, and not the least, for you, Madam Chairperson. By issuing a
licence to Telemedia we really believe that you have the opportunity to
strengthen regional radio in British Columbia, and this is a significant added
2028 To all of you I would simply say, I think Telemedia is the only one that
can mean not one out of five, not three out of five, but five out of five of
these very strategic criteria to serve Vancouver.
2029 Thank you very much for your attention.
2030 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
2031 We will hear from Craig.
2032 MS VOGEL: Madam Chair, I understand they will need about 10 to 15
minutes to set up.
--- Off-record discussion / Discussion hors-micro
2033 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will take a 10-minute break, and return for our next
--- Upon recessing at 1150 / Suspension à 1150
--- Upon resuming at 1204 / Reprise à 1204
2034 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary, please.
2035 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.
2036 Our next Application will be by Craig Broadcast Systems Inc., on behalf
of a company to be incorporated, for a broadcasting licence to carry on an
English language FM radio programming undertaking at Vancouver.
2037 The new station would operate on frequency 94.5, with an effective
radiated power of 37,000 watts. The Applicant is proposing a Smooth Jazz Non
Specialty Format, airing predominantly popular music, Category 2.
2038 Please go ahead.
APPLICATION / APPLICATION
2039 MR. COWIE: Chair Grauer, Commissioners, ladies and gentlemen, good
morning. My name is Bruce Cowie, and I am here representing Harvard Developments
and Craig Music and Entertainment Inc., who are the co-applicants in this
proceeding. Before beginning our presentation, I would like to introduce the
other members of our panel.
2040 On my right is Jennifer Strain, Vice President, Corporate and Regulatory
Affairs, for Craig Broadcast System. To Jennifer's right is Alan Cruise,
President and CEO of Craig Music and Entertainment. To my immediate left is Russ
Tyson, Vice President of Programming and Operations for Craig Music and
Entertainment. To Russ' left is Michael Olstrom, Operations Manager for Regina
2041 In the row behind me, from your left to right is Clayton Bzdel, Vice
President, Investments, for Harvard Developments. Beside Clayton is Debra
McLaughlin, Vice President, Director of Research for Airtime Sales. Beside Debra
is John Donnelly, President of Smooth Productions, a Vancouver-based concert
production company. Beside John are Jan and Ted Hasiuk, Vice President and
President respectively, of JazzLynx, a company that has researched and followed
the evolution of the Smooth Jazz format for more than ten years and manages
several smooth jazz artists in the Vancouver area. Ted also produces and hosts a
weekly show called Café Jazz that airs on CJUM in Winnipeg.
2042 In the far back row from your left to right is Ian Menzies, a local jazz
musician and President of Mo'Funk Records, an independent Vancouver record label
specializing in various jazz related genres. Beside Ian is Drew Craig, President
and CEO of Craig Broadcast Systems. Beside Drew is Paul Hill, President and CEO
of Harvard Developments.
2043 Commissioners, we are delighted to be here today to talk about our
application for a new Vancouver FM station offering a New Adult
Contemporary/Smooth Jazz format. You have many competing applicants before you
at this hearing, Madam Chair. We strongly believe our proposal represents the
best package, for the following reasons.
2044 First, our application is unique among the others applying for a smooth
jazz station. This station will not be a traditional specialty format. Our
playlist will include New Adult Contemporary artists, Pop artists, World Beat,
Instrumental, Easy Listening, as well as more traditional Jazz and Blues. This
mix is similar to what some of the most successful smooth jazz stations in the
United States and around the world play today. The Breeze will customize the
format for Vancouver and play a minimum of 35 per cent Canadian content.
2045 Second, based on the demographic make-up of Vancouver, this market is
where new AC/smooth jazz is most likely to succeed. The target audience for The
Breeze is adults, 35-54, an underserved demographic group in this market.
2046 Third, we have developed specific, on-air and financial initiatives to
foster local and Canadian smooth jazz talent. On-air music features will help
drive the format and create new opportunities to expose these artists locally,
nationally and internationally. And through our Canadian talent development fund
we will expend with local organizations 5 million dollars to develop and promote
Canadian and local NAC/Smooth Jazz talent.
2047 Fourth, we are not an incumbent. We bring new ownership and a distinct
news voice to the Vancouver market.
2048 Fifth, Harvard and Craig's corporate record is one of community service.
And we think that in the case of an intimate and intensely local medium like
radio, the ability to "connect" with the community is fundamentally important.
We will apply that philosophy to this new station.
2049 And sixth, Craig and Harvard between them have over 75 years of
broadcasting success in radio, television and distribution in western Canada.
This speaks to the viability of our business plan and to both our capacity and
commitment to make the new station a success.
2051 MS McLAUGHLIN: The Vancouver CMA is economically vital. Close to 26,000
new jobs were added to the market in 1999 and the momentum continued into 2000,
with 7,700 new jobs in the first quarter. This helped fuel retail sales growth
of 1.7 per cent in the first three months of this year alone. Office and
industrial vacancies are at an all time low, showing the continued faith of new
business in the market. In fact, the industrial vacancy rate is the lowest in
2052 Not surprisingly, the Radio Market Bureau Tracking Reports continue to
show growth in overall sales. According to national advertisers, Vancouver is a
"must buy" and this, in combination with inventory shortages, keeps it as one of
the first markets purchased by agencies.
2053 The CRTC Financial Summary for Radio indicates one of the highest levels
of profitability in the country is achieved in the B.C. region. The economic
estimates for the market have been updated since our filing, and Vancouver is
now expected to rank number 2 in real GDP by next year and retail sales are
expected to grow by 21 per cent by 2004. This growth will strengthen local ad
sales, the primary source of radio revenues.
2054 MR. COWIE: This application is important for both Harvard and Craig
because it offers us the rare opportunity to expand our radio businesses at a
time when increasing consolidation is making acquisition of new stations in
major markets very difficult. Expansion into larger markets in western Canada is
critical to maintaining the viability of the stations we operate in Regina,
Brandon and Winnipeg. A new Vancouver station is a natural fit for both Harvard
and Craig, because we share a compatible business philosophy and strategy for
2056 MR. TYSON: The NAC/Smooth Jazz format is a hybrid format drawing artists
from many diverse musical backgrounds. It blends smooth vocals with contemporary
instrumentals into a unique and special sound.
2057 Some of the instrumental music that is played on the NAC/Smooth Jazz
format finds its roots in the 1970s. It is more or less a natural evolution of
fusion (a combination of jazz and rock) that was being played at that time.
Artists such as George Benson, Spyro Gyra and Larry Carlton, among others, are
still prominent on NAC/Smooth Jazz format stations. Indeed, George Benson's
hugely successful 1976 hit "Breezin" was the prototype for the kind of music
that we know today as NAC/Smooth Jazz.
2058 Many artists in the format have evolved their styles from popular music
into NAC/Smooth Jazz -- artists such as Peter White, who played with pop
star Al Stewart for 20 years, Rick Braun, who toured with War, another pop
group, and Sade. Still other artists in the format have their roots in
traditional jazz, gospel, R&B, New Age, etc. This contributes to the
format's eclectic sound and the difficulty in categorizing music selections.
2059 Despite the broad mix of artists that make up the format, it has
characteristics that distinguish it from other formats. It relies on melodies
and harmony to create a very polished "feel good" sound. It creates a mood.
While it is difficult to describe in words, the sound is easily identifiable.
Let's take a listen to The Breeze.
--- Audio presentation / Présentation audio
2060 MR. TYSON: This format is particularly well-suited to the West Coast
feel and lifestyle. In the U.S., for instance, smooth jazz stations in the
Pacific Region enjoy a significantly higher market share than do smooth jazz
stations in other regions. And we know that our format works in Vancouver
because it is here, at least in part, now.
2061 KWJZ, an NAC/Smooth Jazz station from Seattle, is received in some areas
of Vancouver. The phenomenal growth of tuning to this service, without the
benefit of promotion or local news content, speaks to the immense appeal of the
music in this market. According to BBM, hours tuned in Vancouver to KWJZ has
grown from 77,000 hours in the fall of 1999 to 124,000 in spring 2000, an
increase of just under 50 per cent. The Breeze's combination of NAC/Smooth Jazz
with local content and artists will provide a compelling alternative and
repatriate those listeners.
2062 Based on a survey conducted by Canadian Facts, we know 15 per cent of
the Vancouver market would definitely listen to The Breeze, and a further 48 per
cent stated they would probably listen. We know from U.S. data the
characteristics of the core audience for the New AC/smooth Jazz, and they are a
perfect match for culturally rich and trendy Vancouver: Primarily between the
ages of 35 to 54; an equal balance of males and females; reflect the ethnic
composition of the market; live in middle and high-income households; have more
extensive post-secondary education.
2063 This format has evolved and spread across the U.S., but it is also
recognized and is gaining in popularity worldwide: in Japan, England, Germany,
and in Latin America.
2064 Canadian NAC/Smooth Jazz artists such as Four 80 East and Brian Hughes
receive airplay on U.S. stations and on stations like Relax-FM in Munich,
Germany, but receive very little airplay at home.
2065 Even Russia has a station that devotes time in its schedule to
NAC/Smooth Jazz programming.
2066 Clearly, this is a world-wide phenomenon that crosses boundaries of
geography and race and is thus well-suited to a culturally diverse community
such as Vancouver and the Lower Mainland.
2068 MR. OLSTROM: The Breeze's plans for local reflection include:
2069 News, Traffic and Information -- Between 5:30 a.m. and 9:00 a.m. We
will feature news every half-hour, with news updates at noon, 3, 4, 5 and 6 p.m.
Our news packages will cover the headlines and issues of importance to B.C.
residents, providing a balance of local, regional, Canadian and international
news. Ferry and border crossing information is important as well. We will also
air news on weekends, identified in our research as important to our NAC/Smooth
2070 Traffic updates will air four times an hour during morning and afternoon
drive. Weather updates will be featured hourly.
2071 We also have "Access Vancouver", a weekly, hour-long community based
show, hosted by our news director, providing a forum for discussion of current
hot topics. Community participation is going to be encouraged through an
aggressive schedule of promotional announcements that will run throughout peak
listening periods and on our web site.
2072 "Community Counts" - This runs five times daily, highlighting
community events and broadcasting public service messages from Vancouver and the
Lower Mainland, not only on air, but also on our web site.
2073 "A Breeze Moment" - This is scheduled to run three times a day. It
features events and happenings in the lower mainland.
2074 Then there is "thebreezefm.com", our web site, which is already up and
running. It will be an extension of the station, offering listeners and the
community the opportunity to interact with us. It will also promote smooth jazz
artists and other local talent. We will host pages for local artists, give
people the opportunity to sample and buy their music on-line and connect artists
to a new fan base.
2076 MR. TYSON: Our on-air plans to promote NAC/Smooth Jazz artists
2077 "The Breeze Top 10 at 10": A daily top-ten countdown of popular
NAC/Smooth Jazz songs. This will provide an important new outlet for the music
industry, creating a strong new sales tool for artists and help to build the
star system for this important new format.
2078 "Live from the Breeze": This show will feature the best in local and
touring smooth jazz artists in "live" broadcasts.
2079 "Coastal Jazz and Blues": A weekly highlight for The Breeze, co-hosted
by Robert Kerr and John Orysik, founders of the Vancouver International Jazz
Festival. This show will look at the contemporary Canadian and international
2080 "World Beats": Hosted by local Vancouver world beat expert, Jack
Schuller, will be a weekly treat of Cuban, Brazilian and Latin rhythms and
flavours, plus much more...
2081 "Forays into Future Jazz": Hosted by Vancouver Groove Jazz pioneer Ian
Menzies, will feature one of the most vibrant genres in jazz today...all the
latest releases from the most progressive jazz/dance producers featuring acid
jazz, groove-based jazz fusion and modern sounds.
2083 MR. CRUISE: It is my pleasure to talk about our Canadian Talent
Development Fund -- five million dollars over the first five years of the
licence to eligible third party organizations.
2084 Twenty-five per cent, or $1,250,000. will be paid to FACTOR, to help
fund the production of CD's, tours, and videos by Canadian NAC/Smooth Jazz
2085 We have also committed $225,000 per year to Vancouver's Coastal Jazz and
Blues Society, which has garnered an international reputation for high calibre
concert and festival productions. We have developed, with them, an innovative
Canadian talent development program as follows:
- $100,000 annually will be used to feature Canadian artists in the Vancouver
International Jazz Festival. This will help expose Canadian artists to larger
audiences and create opportunities for them internationally.
- $50,000 annually will be used to create a Vancouver "New Jazz" Showcase.
This will contribute to establishing a new concert series featuring Vancouver
artists in a variety of styles that suit a NAC/Smooth Jazz format. They will
receive rehearsal and performance fees and will be encouraged to perform new and
- $45,000 annually will be used to create an innovative Composers Residency.
This initiative will bring a well-known national or international composer to
Vancouver for a week-long residency focused on writing original music for smooth
jazz ensembles. Scholarships will be awarded to qualified local composers by a
panel of experts. At the end of each residency, the resident composer will give
a concert performance that will include selections of the pieces composed by the
- $30,000 annually will be used to create a Jazz Improvisers Residency, which
will see an international artist lead a week-long residency on jazz
improvisation, and also concludes with a concert performance.
2086 We have also pledged to create a scholarship program in the amount of
$50,000 per year, at the Centre for Digital Imaging and Sound, which offers
professional audio recording programs for Canadian musicians. These scholarships
will be awarded to local performers who aspire to work in the NAC/Smooth Jazz
and Traditional Jazz music fields.
2088 MS STRAIN: The remaining $475,000 per year, $2.375 million in total,
will be made available to Vancouver organizations directly involved in
developing and showcasing Canadian and local talent. In order to ensure the best
use of the funds, we will establish a Volunteer Advisory Board consisting of two
members of station management and at least three representatives from the local
music community. We will file with the Commission an annual report detailing how
the funds have been spent and with whom.
2089 We have spent a significant amount of time talking to a number of
Vancouver area groups -- from the Pacific Music Industry Association to the
Victoria Jazz Society, Folk Music Festival and others. We have lots of ideas as
to how this money could be put to good use and know there will be many more that
develop over the course of the licence term. We want the flexibility to be able
to support these.
2090 MR. COWIE: In summary, Harvard and Craig bring to this application:
- a format that is a perfect fit for Vancouver. It will attract an audience
that is currently underserved, reflect the West coast lifestyle and have broad
cross cultural appeal.
- airplay for a new generation of artists that will drive the success of this
format and create international stars;
- a five million dollar Canadian Talent Development Fund focused on
developing and showcasing Canadian and local talent;
- experience with start-up operations;
- a diverse news voice;
- strong community emphasis;
- the opportunity to maintain services to smaller communities in the
2091 This format is about creating a mood and a lifestyle. What is missing
from the Vancouver lifestyle is...The Breeze.
2092 Thank you, Madam Chair, Commissioners and Commission staff.
2093 We look forward to your questions.
2094 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
2095 Commissioner Cardozo.
2096 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair.
2097 Welcome, Mr. Cowie and colleagues.
2098 Let me outline the six areas that I would like to take you through. We
will deal with the first one, then get some nourishment, and then I will put you
through the rest after that.
2099 The first will be programming; (2) Canadian Talent Development; (3)
marketing; (4) finances; (5) technical issues; (6) I will call it "local
positioning", which will deal with issues of reflection, connection and
ownership. I will go through programming with you now, if that is okay.
2100 I wonder if I could ask you to take us through the slides that you have
attached, because that may in fact answer some of the questions that I have
2101 MR. COWIE: We will have Russ Tyson take you through those.
2102 MR. TYSON: As you can see, our first slide is how we have broken out our
percentages as far as vocal and instrumental -- 50 per cent vocal, 50 per
cent instrumental. Of that, we have broken it down into categories. From Smooth
Jazz, on our next slide, we can expect anywhere between 60 to 65 per cent. Also
attached there are some Canadian artists who are getting very little airplay in
Canada, and of course in Vancouver, and some international artists, just as
2103 The following slide is NAC and AC. We expect 25 to 30 per cent of our
selections to come from those categories. Again, a list of Canadian artists that
are probably getting some airplay in this market and in markets across Canada,
and international artists.
2104 That is followed by Other Jazz and Blues, which is equal to about 10 per
cent. Again, that includes Canadian and international artists, as examples.
2105 The last one is our Canadian Content Summary, which tells you where we
expect to get our Canadian content from of course in those categories, from NAC
and AC, 15 per cent, from Smooth Jazz, 15 per cent, from Jazz and Blues, 5 per
cent. That would give us a total of 35 per cent.
2106 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Could you do that last one again.
2107 MR. TYSON: From the categories that you see there, from NAC and AC, from
that category will equal 15 per cent of our Canadian Content.
2108 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So it is not that 15 per cent of that content will
2109 MR. TYSON: In total we will have 35 per cent Canadian Content, and this
is how we anticipate it coming from those categories to get to that 35 per
2110 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Sorry -- I look confused, don't I.
2111 Of the NAC and AC portion, how much of that will be Canadian
2112 MR. TYSON: Fifteen per cent. We will play 35 per cent of that category,
but in total it will equal 15 per cent of our broadcast week.
2113 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thirty-five per cent of each of these will be
2114 MR. TYSON: Yes.
2115 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me take you -- and maybe my puzzlement
will ease up as we go along. You note in your Application, and you have stated
clearly here on page 2 of your oral presentation that unlike the other
applicants for this type of format, you are the only one who will not be a
traditional specialty format.
2116 I wonder if you could share with us why you decided not to go for a
Specialty format, and I recognize that the original application was filed before
we amended our categories.
2117 MR. COWIE: Perhaps I could begin the answer on that, Commissioner
2118 We looked at both, and indeed looked at the Hamilton proposal, then
looked at where NAC's Smooth Jazz is and how it is evolving, both in the United
States and around the world.
2119 We took the view that in order for the NAC's Smooth Jazz format to be
successful in the long term, it needs to evolve over time. The Canadian portion
of that in a Smooth Jazz artist has to be grown. It is there now in its
beginnings, but we don't believe strong enough yet to carry a format. So the
mixture of more Easy Listening music from other genres will be used for a time,
while that side of the format begins, flourishes and provides national and
international stars. So it will change over the period of the licence that we
are asking the Commission for.
2120 Going in, we believe that this was the best way to begin the format and
to focus all of our energies from the playlist to developing new Smooth Jazz
artists in Canada to build it over time.
2121 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Given that there is not a lot of Canadian grown
Smooth Jazz now and you are planning to grow that, will the amount of Smooth
Jazz that you carry grow over time?
2122 MR. COWIE: Yes, it will. Yes indeed, it will.
2123 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What is the percentage breakdown of these three
categories that you will be playing? Leaving aside the question of Canadian
content, how much NAC, AC, how much Smooth Jazz, how much Jazz and Blues?
2124 MR. TYSON: In total?
2125 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Of each.
2126 MR. TYSON: From Smooth Jazz, it will be 60 per cent.
2127 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So that goes back to the other --
2128 MR. TYSON: Right.
2129 From NAC and AC, approximately 25 to 30 per cent, and then from
Traditional and Blues, it would be approximately 10 per cent.
2130 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Could you repeat that? That is different from
2131 MR. TYSON: We are talking overall. Approximately 60 per cent from Smooth
Jazz will be featured on our radio station. Approximately 30 per cent from NAC
and AC, and 10 per cent from Jazz and Blues.
2132 MR. COWIE: Just as an illustration, the music you heard on the video
contains 10 pieces of music; 60 per cent of that would have been the same
breakout as we propose. So that gave you a typical hour of what the station
would sound like, and against that breakout.
2133 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: If we go to our categories -- and when we
talk about categories, I am grateful that a session like this is not being
televised because it is hard enough for us to keep track, I can't imagine the
viewer trying to understand Category 2, 3 and subcategory 34 -- how would
it break down in terms of categories 2 and 3, 3 being primarily subcategory
2134 MR. COWIE: I'll let Jennifer answer that.
2135 MS STRAIN: I will try and answer that, Commissioner Cardozo.
2136 NAC, AC, I guess we would say would fall under Pop Rock & Dance,
which would be Category 21 -- subcategory 21.
2137 Other Jazz and Blues, and what we have called Smooth Jazz, would likely
fall under subcategory 34.
2138 If I could just make a point, that under what we call Smooth Jazz, we
have some confusion categorizing some of these things, and that is where some of
the difficulty may be. I think some of those selections fall under subcategory
34, but Smooth Jazz, as a style of music, could also be Easy Listening, and it
could also be Pop. There are Pop artists that find themselves on Smooth Jazz
charts in the U.S. So that is where some of the difficulty may lie.
2139 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Would Smooth Jazz not be more a subcategory 34
2140 MS STRAIN: I think it would be primarily subcategory 34, yes.
2141 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That is the part you told me would be subcategory
21, or did I understand you wrong?
2142 MS STRAIN: The NAC, AC part would be subcategory 21.
2143 MR. COWIE: The Easy Listening, and Jennifer can support me or correct
me, would come primarily out of Category 2, subcategory 24, which is Easy
Listening, Instrumentals, and would be found there.
2144 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And why did you choose not to apply for a
2145 MR. COWIE: I guess for the same reason that I opened with. We think this
format needs to evolve over time. It is still new. Part of that advice we got
from our friends from Winnipeg, who have been working with this format for over
ten years, and with the reality that we think we need time and to direct our
resources to build specifically smooth jazz artists to do that.
2146 We just thought we had more flexibility outside of a specialty format to
do that. And at some point I am sure the question will come, we can answer it
now, we believe very strongly in this format that it can succeed, that it offers
the best chance for this licence to be viable, and to create the funds that we
need to push the other side of the envelope, which is to create the new artist,
to support the format, which is circular in that sense. So we are committed to
it for the long term, and I think it is the right way to go.
2147 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: On that question of the long term, one of the
outcomes of a Specialty format would be a Condition of Licence. If you are not
applying for a Specialty format, there would not be a Condition of Licence.
2148 Some might argue that with a Condition of Licence there is more of a
guarantee that the market has that diversity continuing. In your case, we could
license you for this, since it is a blended format, which would not be a
Specialty, and a few years down the road you find that it is a lot tougher than
you think it is and you can flip the format pretty easily, what can you say to
me that would --
2149 MR. COWIE: We would be quite prepared to accept the Condition of
2150 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: We don't regulate formats.
2151 MR. COWIE: I appreciate that, but in any event we feel strongly enough
that in fact if you did, we would without hesitation accept a Condition of
Licence that we would stay in this format.
2152 MS STRAIN: Commissioner Cardozo, I'm sorry, could I just add one
2153 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes, please.
2154 MS STRAIN: We don't have difficulty committing to the Smooth Jazz
format. Our difficulty is that as the format does evolve over the next seven
years, we don't know that the subcategories, as laid out in the Commission's
policy, are going to be same. We think you are going to have lots of cross-over
between Pop and Instrumental and Easy Listening and Smooth Jazz, and that we are
going to get into an exercise of trying to make sure we are 70 per cent out of
one category and 30 out of another.
2155 What we are saying is that we are absolutely committed to the format,
but that the format itself we think is going to see a lot of change within the
first licence term.
2156 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are you saying that the CRTC's categories are not
--- Laughter / Rires
2157 MS STRAIN: I don't think I said that, did I?
2158 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me ask you, just for our understanding, how
you see the difference between Smooth Jazz and Contemporary Instrumentals, in
terms of --
2159 MR. COWIE: I have a bevy of answers for that question. I think I am
going to start with Russ and then I am sure that Jan and Ted, who are really our
spiritual leaders in this one, would be helpful in this question as well.
2160 MR. TYSON: Thanks, Bruce.
2161 I think probably the hardest thing is to put a description on any of
this type of music. It does create a mood and a lifestyle. I take you back to
our video presentation. I think the best quote in there was from Myles Davies,
who said, "I'll play it first and I'll tell you what it is later". I think that
sort of sums it up.
2162 Some of the artists don't know where they fit in in this whole thing. I
think Ted Hasiuk can explain that to you better. He has had over ten years of
following this format and putting it into this mood and lifestyle that this
format has become.
2163 MR. TED HASIUK: Thank you, Russ. I will try my best to explain this.
2164 I have read extensively on the subject, plus followed Smooth Jazz for
the last ten years or so. In some cases, it is not totally crystal clear to me
where a particular selection would fall.
2165 It is true that some of the music that would be played on The Breeze
would clearly fall in Category 3. However, after speaking with artists and
interviewing them, they themselves feel that their music may in fact be a little
bit more oriented towards the Pop field, or perhaps described better as
2166 When I interviewed Dan Siegel, one of the pioneers of the music, whose
career dates back to the early 80s, I asked him where he would categorize his
music. He merely stated it was Instrumental. This was not an isolated event.
Many NAC/Smooth Jazz artists, their styles are based on a Pop background, and
some of them were mentioned earlier in the presentation, Peter White, for one,
played with Al Stewart for over 20 years.
2167 Another artist, Rick Braun, who is now considered to be one of the top
or hardest star of the CNA/AC Smooth Jazz format, states that smooth jazz is not
always smooth, and it is not always jazz. Rick considers himself a Pop
2168 An article which appeared in the Calgary Herald dated December 17, 1997,
quoted Ray Mansroll, who is a saxophonist born in Windsor, Ontario, who plays
with Earl Clew. He was one of the artists on our list. Ray says that the music
is Instrumental Pop. He says there is no shame in calling it Pop, but don't call
2169 The NAC/Smooth Jazz format is perhaps the most creative format that has
ever existed in radio. I think the only real limit to the format is the
imagination of the programmers.
2170 MR. COWIE: We have been spending many many hours trying to do two
things. First, trying to get our arms around what the format really is. I heard
someone say this morning, they coined the phrase Smooth Jazz. It is probably
closer to Soft Jazz, which I think some of the commissioners were using in their
description of it.
2171 I was in New York earlier this week and had breakfast with the President
of National Public Radio in the United States, who listens to a Smooth Jazz
radio station in New York. I asked him to help me with this. He said, "Well,
it's Easy Listening, with a jazz base". So that is where we are coming from in
this, and trying to marry the two over time.
2172 In our first experiments, again referring to the music you heard on the
tape, it sounds pretty good. It has a kind of a mood to it, and a sort of laid
back lifestyle attraction to it.
2173 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me try just one more question on this --
not to say that you are not answering my questions, you are, but I am just
trying to get more and more precision to the answer.
2174 Let me take you to the September 13th letter from you, Ms Strain. There
was a list that you had -- in one of the Deficiency questions, we had a
list of artists.
2175 MS STRAIN: I believe it was that letter. I have that list.
2176 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: If I look at that list, comparing it to the Schwan
record catalogue, the majority of those seem to be more subcategory 34. Do you
2177 MS STRAIN: Yes, I do. I guess what we are getting at is that with the
enormous growth that we have observed in this format in the U.S., that that may
be the case today and it may be the case in a year, in the first few years of
the licence, but it may not be the case in Year 6 or 7 of the licence.
2178 To give you an example, I understand that on Smooth Jazz charts in the
U.S., for instance, you have Sting, Bette Midler has been on the Smooth Jazz
charts, Michael McDonald, Steely Dan. The question is, are these Pop artists or
are they subcategory 34, if you want to use that --
2179 Getting back to my original point, we just find that categorization down
the road could become a little problematic for everybody.
2180 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So essentially, Mr. Cowie, your friend in New York
saying that it was Easy Listening with a jazz base seems to me what you are
defining it as, and you just don't want to have too many parameters around it,
because it is hard to define now and it may change over time.
2181 MR. COWIE: We think it will change. It is changing in the United States.
It is spreading out now into Europe and to Asia. It is being played in Latin
America and so on, and it is changing.
2182 I really think what will change it the most is the growth of Canadian
artists who have a place to play, and have a defined format with which they can
get their minds around and create music for.
2183 We think it will change in that way, and we think it will also
proliferate. I would not be surprised at all if frequencies are available to see
this format played in most major cities in this country, as it is going in the
2184 It will evolve, and I think some of the questions and some of the
confusion about where Steely Dan is on Monday and not on Tuesday with a
different song, is really what we are faced with her. It may be Pop one day, and
it may be Smooth Jazz the next. This format allows that cross-over to happen, as
long as it is within the mood and it is within the sound of the radio
2185 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you, as Craig, or as Craig and Harvard, have
plans to try this format more down the road in other parts of the country?
2186 MR. COWIE: I would hope we could. And certainly if we don't, somebody
else will. We just have a feeling that this is the new format, sort of unused in
radio, that everybody has been looking for.
2187 You can do New Oldies and you can a new AC, and you can do a new this,
that, or whatever. This is a brand new format. Not only that, it is a brand new
opportunity for Canadian artists -- brand new.
2188 I think the growth of this appeals to what broadcasters need, and I
would hope to the Commission, in terms of its mandate to grow Canadian talent.
We just think there is a powerful opportunity here.
2189 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: On the breakdown of vocal and instrumental, in
your slide you said 50-50. My understanding in the United States is that the
experiences tended to be two-thirds instrumental and one-third vocal. Is that
2190 I just want to get a sense of why you want 50-50.
2191 MR. TYSON: We decided to go 50-50 basically to enhance our Canadian
commitment to 35 per cent, which we will borrow some softer AC music, like you
did here, Gino Vanelli on the tape, for example, where soft AC stations, and
maybe even Oldy stations, would play.
2192 We envision this growing, as Mr. Cowie expressed earlier. As the format
grows, we expect probably that most of the growth will come from the NAC/Smooth
Jazz area, which will be primarily instrumental. Again, the Canadian artists
will grow with it, and we feel this is a starting point.
2193 MR. COWIE: I think also there is another point there that we ought not
to miss, and that is that by having a higher level of vocals in your rotation,
it makes the format more accessible, instead of it being a very strong tendency
2194 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Making it more vocal and accessible?
2195 MR. COWIE: For vocal performers, at the higher percentage of vocals.
2196 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Sorry. Say that again?
2197 MR. COWIE: By having a higher percentage of vocals in the format, it
makes it more accessible for the performers.
2198 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you have any sense from the perspective of
listeners whether in this genre they prefer instrumental or vocal?
2199 MR. TYSON: Again, it is all about the mood. You heard Mr. Hasiuk talk
about it earlier, the mood and the lifestyle, because it draws from
2200 I know Mr. Hasiuk on his show in Winnipeg has played things like "It's
all in the game", which is a pretty old song, but it did fit in the whole mood
of the show. I think it is the type of vocal that is played is very
2201 Perhaps Ted can talk about that.
2202 MR. TED HASIUK: Thanks, Russ.
2203 I think Russ really hit the nail on the head a short while ago when he
said that as the format grows, what we can see happening, or foresee hopefully
happening, is that there will in fact be more instrumental artists develop in
2204 As was mentioned in the introduction, we do manage a few local artists,
and they are instrumentalists. With the proper exposure, we can see more and
more local talent developing as well as across the rest of Canada.
2205 I think the vocalists in the AC market are pretty well served right now.
I could see that this format will, if anything, allows the instrumentalists to
grow and that we would move away from a 50 per cent instrumental to a larger
component, perhaps something like the statistics that you quoted.
2206 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can I ask a little bit about Spoken Word. You have
talked about news, which will be more drive time news, and there would be local,
regional, national and international.
2207 What kind of news staff do you plan to have? Would you be having
reporters of your own? I note in your oral presentation today you are talking
about updates and headlines. So would you be having your own reporters as
2208 MR. COWIE: It is not a large staff. It is a music format, and the news
would be in the form of headline news. I will have Michael Olstrom take you
2209 MR. OLSTROM: Starting with the staff, there will be three bodies
primarily designated, including the news director dedicated to the news
department. There will be an additional body that is part of the morning show
that is also a news presenter. That will help, based on the determination of the
news director, to assign someone as a reporter at times. We do not intend to be
a news driven radio station. There are radio stations in this marketplace that
do that very well. But we will present the news and hopefully gather some of
that news with bodies at times being able to be designated to gathering that
2210 We do have news that is four minutes, at 6:00, 7:00 and 8:00 a.m., also
at 5:00 and 6:00 p.m., throughout Monday to Friday. The rest are the bottom of
our newscasts in the morning, and the remainder at the top of our newscasts are
94 second updates.
2211 We also have news on weekend, because 95 per cent of respondents to our
research who would listen to this format indicated that news was important to
them. We also determined that we would do news on Saturday and Sunday, 6:00,
7:00, 9:00 and noon, and those are all four minute newscasts.
2212 The total for the week is just over three hours -- 3 hours 15
2213 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So for the most part you will be taking the news
off wire services --
2214 MR. OLSTROM: Primarily, yes.
2215 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: A couple of programs that you mentioned in your
oral presentation, "Access Vancouver" and "The Breeze Moment", would those be
covering general issues? When you talk about hot topics, would they be general
issues of interest in Vancouver, or are they more skewed or reflective of the
2216 MR. OLSTROM: It is a program that is wide open to whatever the issues of
the city and area are. They will delve into whether it is local politics or
there is a major issue within the city. That is what that program is designed to
2217 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And what Spoken Word, or is there any? Are you
planning any Spoken Word support for this genre of music?
2218 MR. OLSTROM: That would be within --
2219 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are they talking about what is on in the clubs or
announcements about people coming through?
2220 MR. OLSTROM: That Spoken Word would come within, for example, "A Breeze
Moment", which can be a highlight program. As well, there are some other
additional programs, music programs, that we talked about that would include
Spoken Word content, interviews, artists in the studio to discuss their music,
that type of thing as well. Whether it is the "Forays into Future Jazz" or
whatever, where we are interviewing artists. So there will be Spoken Word within
those programs themselves.
2221 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Maybe, Madam Chair, this would be a good time to
take our break.
2222 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will reconvene at two o'clock.
--- Upon recessing at 1300 / Suspension à 1300
--- Upon resuming at 1400 / Reprise à 1400
2223 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will continue.
2224 Commissioner Cardozo.
2225 MR. COWIE: Commissioner Cardozo, before we move forward, I wonder if we
might revisit the percentages of Canadian Content that we talked about
2226 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Feel free to do so.
2227 MR. COWIE: I think we served to confuse the Commission with that
explanation, and we don't want to do that. If we could just go through it one
more time, so that it is clear for you.
2228 MR. TYSON: From the Smooth Jazz category, 60 per cent -- 25 per
cent of that would be Canadian.
2229 From the NAC/AC category that we gave you, 50 per cent of that would be
2230 From Other Jazz and Blues, 50 per cent of that would be Canadian.
2231 This would, in total, equal 35 per cent.
2232 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That is quite different from what you had said
2233 MR. COWIE: We wanted to make sure we clarified that.
2234 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I will ask you to do that again, so that I can
write it down.
2235 MR. TYSON: Okay.
2236 From the Smooth Jazz category, 25 per cent of that total would be
2237 From NAC/AC, 50 per cent would be Canadian.
2238 From Other Jazz and Blues, 50 per cent would be Canadian.
2239 This gets us to the 35 per cent total overall.
2240 MR. COWIE: Thank you for allowing us to clarify that.
2241 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you. I am kind of pleased it was not my
total forgetting of math in that. That feels like it adds up to 35.
2242 We will go to Canadian Talent Development now, and get some
2243 The $27,000, which is part of the CAB plan, is that part of the overall
figure that you are looking at, or is that beyond it?
2244 MR. COWIE: It would be part of it in the first five years of the
licence, then would stand alone beyond that as a minimum.
2245 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So then we are talking about $250,000 per year to
FACTOR less $27,000?
2246 MR. COWIE: No. No, no.
2247 The breakouts that we have proposed as part of the Focus Canadian Talent
are as we presented them. It will reside in the residual amount of money. There
is an additional 2 million dollars uncommitted.
2248 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So FACTOR will be getting $250,000 a year for the
first five years, plus $27,000 a year for seven years?
2249 MR. COWIE: I'm sorry. We were still answering the FACTOR question here
on my right, and I sort of missed that.
2250 Do you want to clarify that --
2251 MS STRAIN: We are going to commit, on average, every year to FACTOR, for
the first five years, $250,000. In our financials in years 6 and 7, we have
$27,000 each year.
2252 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So $27,000 for the first five years is included in
2253 MS STRAIN: That is correct.
2254 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In your oral presentation today, you had clarified
for me -- is this additional information, or are you identifying or
designating some of the $750,000 to eligible third parties?
2255 On pages 11 and 12 of your oral presentation, you talked about there are
four specific programs here. I take it those are --
2256 What you have said in the information we have had to date, that there
would be $750,000 per year, which you would be providing to third parties. Am I
right to read that the amounts that you have included on pages 11 and 12 are
part of that $750,000, which leaves $475,000 mentioned in the second last line
on page 12, that would be designated thereon?
2257 MR. COWIE: That is correct.
2258 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can you tell me a little bit about how you go
about deciding on how the third party money goes, whether you have criteria,
whether you have priorities, whether there is publicity that goes with it, so
that people who are interested in this kind of support might come to you?
2259 MR. COWIE: In a general sense, those dollars that are designated to this
point are all focused on creating new Smooth Jazz players and artists. If you
look at them in context, you will see that they all point in that direction.
2260 A hundred per cent of the dollars go to these designations. There is no
other purpose for it.
2261 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: There is no administrative overhead?
2262 MR. COWIE: None.
2263 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And that is done through the station?
2264 MR. COWIE: That is done through the station. And with the public input
of three members of the community on the advisory board.
2265 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I might have missed that. Was that in your
Application, or is that new that you have provided to us today, the advisory
2266 MR. COWIE: That is new.
2267 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you have criteria or priorities for this
2268 MR. COWIE: We have criteria. The priority is a universal thing, and it
follows the rest of the package. It is undesignated, because we don't know where
it will go, and we want to make sure that, should we received the licence on the
ground that we have a chance to react to others who could benefit from these
funds in terms of growing their talents --
2269 That is why we have kept a pool available for that purpose. And we will
go out into the community and find out where it can have its greatest effect,
both through the committee and on air to invite those who would be interested
and fit into this package to come to our advisory committee and make their pitch
2270 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is there any sense of how much would go for Smooth
Jazz and how much for NAC/AC or Jazz?
2271 MR. COWIE: Our first focus is Smooth Jazz, but not to the exclusion of
NAC. If it fits the format, as we think the format is going to evolve over time,
but our primary focus is Smooth Jazz artists.
2272 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How would you monitor that the money is
2273 MR. COWIE: I think our intent from the beginning in putting these
packages together was to make sure that we are involved with the process upon
the ground, in Vancouver, to follow them through. We were fortunate to have John
Donnelly work for us through this process, who lives and works here, knows the
community very well, is one of the top producers of Canadian talent. So with his
advice and the advice of others, we would make sure that -- you can't
guarantee after you have written the cheque, but we would certainly want to have
a clear indication of where those artists were trying to work.
2274 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: With other experience you have had in this area,
do you tend to give out the full cheque at the front end, or do you stagger it
over a period of time?
2275 MR. COWIE: I will have to ask Drew to speak to that. This is a first for
us in this -- a first for me, at least, in this, and I am not quite sure
how that works.
2276 We would want to have some control over time -- in a universal way,
that it gets to the format. I am not quite sure how we would do that. Perhaps
the first order of business would have the advisory committee arrive at that
criteria and at management.
2277 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you want to add anything, Mr. Craig?
2278 MR. CRAIG: Commissioner Cardozo, if I might add.
2279 I think the way we have contemplated dispersing the funds, it would be
50 per cent upon presentation from the various groups that might come forward,
and 50 per cent on completion of the projet is how we have talked in general
terms, so that we get some results.
2280 I think the other thing that is worth mentioning is that we have
committed to report to you on an annual basis what these activities are. We have
committed to file annual reports with the Commission that indicate where the
money is spent, where it went, and who got it.
2281 I think in that sense, with the reporting procedure, with the local
committee and the local input, and the criteria that we have set out, where we
will not just write the cheque out a hundred per cent, I think we can ensure
that we are going to get some results from the Canadian Talent Development
2282 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Could we move to a few marketing issues.
2283 The priority age group that you have identified is 34-55. I just wanted
to find out what the reasoning was for that.
2284 MR. COWIE: I should tell you, Commissioner Cardozo, that one of our
troops went down this morning with a bit of the flu bug, so we will use our
researcher more than we might otherwise. She knows this territory very well.
2285 I would ask Debra McLaughlin to respond to that.
2286 MS McLAUGHLIN: Thanks, Bruce.
2287 The demographic that has been identified for this format has been
arrived at in two ways. First, the primary research was to examine the type of
audience, which included demographics, that this format is currently drawing in
the U.S. We have quite a wealth of information because, as you know, it is
available and growing in the U.S. The primary demographic for this format in the
U.S. is 35-54.
2288 We also conducted customer research in the market with Canadian facts,
and we sampled 600 residents, which is a typical sample size for this market. We
asked them directly how much this format interested them. They could respond in
one of five ways: No Answer; they would definitely listen; Probably listen; Most
likely not listen; and Definitely not listen.
2289 We found that the highest interest came from the 35-54 age group.
2290 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Beyond that actual finding, is there any sense of
why you think people of that age group are more likely to listen to Smooth
2291 MR. COWIE: I could start this, and it is really where we have spent a
lot of our time trying to answer that question, which in turn answers the
viability of the format in the long term.
2292 It is a lifestyle, it is a mood, it is easy listening. We see this as
being a very strong in-office format. We see it being a very compatible format,
where people are doing audio streaming on the Internet while they are working
with their computers. We see it as a relaxer in traffic.
2293 I can just see somebody sitting back listening to Smooth Jazz. Well, in
Vancouver at five o'clock you don't go anywhere.
2294 It is all of those things, and we think that is attractive to that age
2295 The second subset is 55-plus, so it seems to fit that lifestyle.
2296 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are we getting sort of close to just doing Easy
Listening here? The way you define why you think this age bracket would be
interested in Smooth Jazz, it seems to me would apply for Easy Listening as
2297 My thought is, how is this Application different from an Easy Listening
2298 MR. COWIE: It is different because it has the potential to produce a
whole new era of Canadian artists who are playing jazz a different way, who are
playing smooth jazz. That is the real benefit.
2299 People have been trying forever to play jazz on the radio, and it has
not been successful in most cases, unless it is in a very very large city, Los
Angeles, New York and others.
2300 Smooth Jazz can get you there, and the Easy Listening part of it is part
of the transport system. Someone discovered it along the way. Even our own
consultants tell us that they tried 10 years ago to put this kind of format on
radio stations and the station owners told them to go away and come back with
something else, because it would never sell, it would never work. But somebody
found the key to it, and the key seems to be that it is the easy listening sort
of mood presentation of really good music, and a lot of it comes from the jazz
2301 So it presents an opportunity that I guess we missed along the way, but
we see it there and that is why we are so very strong on our commitment to
2302 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: On the theme of marketing, there has been a fair
amount of talk so far in the last couple of days about the demographics of the
Vancouver market, the multicultural, multiracial nature. You have talked about
this format as being fairly cross cultural in its appeal.
2303 One of the applicants yesterday suggested that Smooth Jazz rates a bit
higher among visible minorities than the population at large. Did you get a
sense of any of that in your marketing studies? Do you have a sense of how this
will appeal to the diverse communities in this area?
2304 MR. COWIE: Again, I will ask Debra to respond to that.
2305 MS McLAUGHLIN: In fact, one of the measures that we take of this format
was to understand the composition of the audience as it pertains to the ethno
cultural groups that reside in the market.
2306 We found that, for the group that would listen to this, only 65 per cent
of the listener base for this population comes from the traditional mainstream.
The other 35 per cent come from the cultural groups that make up the Vancouver
2307 For example, 14 per cent of the audience would be Chinese, and that
includes both the Mandarin and Cantonese -- we did break it down.
2308 We have 3 per cent of our listener base coming from the French
population. We have representation from Italian, Asian. While the percentages
vary somewhat in terms of the distribution of the market, they are very broad.
So we do not seem to be finding groups that are left out or disproportionately
under-represented or over-represented.
2309 I think the thing that is unique about this format is because it is
intensely music base and there is a high instrumental content, it translates,
there isn't a language barrier. So intuitively it makes sense. A melody is a
melody. A smile is a smile. It does not rely on language cues. That is why
intuitively and empirically we have evidence that shows that this is a good
format to have a broad reach within all of the groups.
2310 MR. COWIE: We found, in looking at the stations across the United
States, which at this point has to be our benchmark for where they are going, on
the west coast, which has historically kind of a slower, more relaxed living
style, this format does better, because it blends in with that living style.
That is sort of the Easy Listening part of it, I guess.
2311 The other thing is that it is a format that allows you to customize. I
am sure that the Latin Americans are playing more Latin American music as part
of their mix in their NAC format.
2312 The format is likely different in Los Angeles than it is in San
Francisco. And we would be closer to a San Francisco format than Los Angeles,
2313 So it has those I think very positive side opportunities that go along
2314 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Among the Chinese Canadian population, did you
find any higher degree of interest in this as compared to other ethnic
communities? I am just thinking that one hears often that piano schools or music
schools have a high number of Chinese Canadian kids in music, and I am wondering
if that bears itself out in in any of this kind of research you have done.
2315 MS McLAUGHLIN: Certainly within the context if we look outside the
mainstream and outside the 65 per cent, the Chinese group has the highest level
of interest, at 14 per cent. And that may be by virtue of population, because
this is of the total spectrum. But within the context -- because this will
be an English language station, for all intents and purposes, where there is
Spoken Word, we did not take a sub-sample of the Chinese population, and
therefore I cannot say "X" per cent of the Chinese population is interested. I
can describe it in context of how our listenership will be constructed but, to
answer your question, I would have had to survey in Mandarin and Cantonese.
2316 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you know, or maybe it would be Mrs. or Mrs.
Hasiuk who would know that, whether among new developing artists, whether there
is any noticeable number of visible minority, young artists in the Smooth Jazz
or other fields?
2317 MR. TED HASIUK: Yes, actually that is very true, there are. There is one
saxophone player, Danny Young, who I believe originates from South Korea, and he
is bringing his music across to North America. There is another one that we
manage, who I believe until just recently lived in Vancouver and has taken his
show on the road, so to speak, Kim Nisjikawara(ph). He is also another sax
2318 So definitely there is that visible minority there.
2319 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In your research, to what extent did you look at
the Seattle and Portland stations? For example, have you looked at specially
Seattle as being a comparable market in terms of the kind of offering that you
are going to be presenting?
2320 MR. COWIE: We have. There are 124,000 hours there of tuning into the
Vancouver market that are of very high interest to us. We believe
2321 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Sorry. I don't want to talk yet about the
2322 MR. COWIE: Non, no.
2323 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I am thinking more just about how those markets
are doing on their own. Is there much you can pick up from them that will apply
2324 MR. COWIE: I will have Russ or Hugh speak to that part of the
2325 MR. McKINNON: Certainly the Seattle station has been very successful. At
one point, and I don't have it right here with me, I believe it was no. 4
overall in share in the market. Probably the most successful radio station in
this format is KWV in Los Angeles who, in 1999, built $41 million. So it is a
very successful format on the west coast. So we did take that into
consideration, and looked at it.
2326 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And in terms of repatriation, you are looking at
repatriating some of that listenership, Mr. Cowie?
2327 MR. COWIE: We would hope so. What I was going to say in answer to your
question was that that audience is obviously of interest in the Vancouver
market, so we did look at what they are doing. Because of that interest
particularly, and they are playing an NAC/Smooth Jazz format, on that basis we
would hope to be successful in some level of repatriation here.
2328 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In terms of the projected audience, you have
provided us figures for the 12-plus category. I am wondering if you have
projected audience share for your target age group, namely the 35-54?
2329 MS McLAUGHLIN: I do not have those figures with me, but if the
Commission wishes, we can file those.
2330 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You do have --
2331 MS McLAUGHLIN: We have calculated them for the purposes of developing
ratings, but I do not have them at my fingertips.
2332 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: It would be useful to have that.
2333 With regards to your ad revenues, you have given us a breakdown of where
you anticipate getting some of these ad revenues from. If I go to page 364 of
our record, which is in the letter of August 16th -- tell me how you
project these figures. This is the letter of August 16th, page 4.
2334 If you could tell us a bit about how you come to these figures. You are
projecting revenues from television stations, 5 per cent revenues from
newspapers, 25 per cent, and so forth. How do you make those calculations?
2335 MS McLAUGHLIN: I'm sorry. If I could just ask you to repeat the
question. We were switching paper here.
2336 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Sure.
2337 The question was about where the revenue would be coming from in terms
of advertisement that is elsewhere now. I am just wondering how you come to
these approximations, such as, revenues from existing stations, 40 per cent,
revenues from television stations, 5, newspapers, 25, other media, 10.
2338 MS McLAUGHLIN: In terms of revenues from existing stations, part of the
research that was conducted to test this format also asked the respondents what
stations they were currently listening to, and not only what they were listening
to, but what was their favourite, what did they spend the most time with.
2339 We used that to determine who would be impacted, and the list is in that
letter that you have before you. For those who do not, it is CBU, CBU-FM, CHQM,
CKVD, CKKS, CKSR.
2340 Obviously in terms of revenue, CBU and CBU-FM do not count, but the
other ones are the primary source where we think we would draw audience, and
revenues will, to some extent, follow audience. So that is where the 40 per cent
2341 In terms of the 5 per cent from television stations, there still tends
to be a very high demand for TV time and radio time in this market that cannot
be met, and when it cannot be met, the rates go up. So we believe there is some
dissatisfied television advertisers who would see a new opportunity on radio and
one that reaches a very difficult target to reach, and that is the 35-54, as
being an attractive option.
2342 In terms of newspaper, the 25 per cent really is derived less than from
the 35-54, but the lifestyle of the target audience for The Breeze. And these
are people, as we said partially in our oral, that certainly the research that
we have from the U.S. supports. They tend to be higher users of computers, they
tend to be higher users of high end products. For example, car dealerships. You
typically do not find a Lexus ad on a radio station today. That is not because
they don't believe radio works, it is because the focus on this target just is
not there. They either have to buy multiple stations, which are not their
target, or they have to buy stations that capture part of this. So it is not
2343 We believe we will be able to draw some revenue from advertisers who
typically have to use the sections of the newspaper to tightly target this
2344 The 10 per cent of Other Media is exactly the same thing. Outdoor is an
excellent way to reach the group, because of their active lifestyle. So a great
deal of money and strategy goes into placing the outdoor ads.
2345 In terms of the 20 per cent, we believe that there are people trying to
reach this target market which, again I have to emphasize, is less defined by
that 35-54 character than it is by their lifestyle habits and their product
2346 We have a wealth of material, that unfortunately got cut from the oral,
about their preferences of wine over beer and Aeroplan -- it frankly would
have bored you. It is very lengthy, but it is also very distinctive, and it is a
very important aspect in terms of where the revenue would come for
2347 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Don't worry about boring us; we live to be bored
by detail of this kind!
--- Laughter / Rires
2348 MS McLAUGHLIN: Then I'm your person!
2349 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The audience can laugh, but so do they!
2350 On the matter of outside media, you said their lifestyle would be sort
of outdoorsy. You would be taking that away from outdoors, and it would be going
to your station. Right?
2351 MS McLAUGHLIN: What I am saying is, they are active, which means,
whether it is just driving to the airport to go somewhere or driving to a
restaurant, they are active. So an excellent way to reach this target market is
outdoor, and the positioning of outdoor signs.
2352 The optimum way to reach them is radio. Unfortunately, there isn't an
efficient way at this point in time to do it, and The Breeze would offer
2353 So we do believe we would take some of that money back from outdoor,
which is seen as the second option, but still the only efficient one at this
point in time, for several advertisers.
2354 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And repatriated dollars. Is there a lot of
advertising dollars going out of the country at the moment, south of the border,
2355 MR. COWIE: The repatriation we speak of is in audience, that hopefully
we could sell in the retail market here, if we are able to repatriate it. We
have not put anything in our projections for revenue repatriation.
2356 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Your income projections that you provided us are
fairly low in comparison to existing non-ethnic stations in the market. Where
the average is around 10, even 16 million, you are projecting something like 5.4
in year 5. Are you giving us a conservative, careful level?
2357 MR. COWIE: It is careful, it is conservative, and goes to our overall
thinking that the format we propose to you is going to evolve over time. We
would hope to reach those levels at some time in the future, but coming in, it
was a bit unknown to us in terms of the totality of the format. It is better
now. We are more comfortable with it.
2358 We think it will compete as a mainstream station. So, if anything, these
numbers are a bit on the conservative side.
2359 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Maybe this is an unfair question, but if you
thought you were going to end up in the 10-plus million range within five years,
would your CTV package be more generous?
2360 MR. COWIE: It might have. We certainly did not believe we would.
2361 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let's move on to technical.
2362 We talked about other frequencies that may be available, and I will just
read off six of them: 88.1, 88.3, 91.9, 92.3, and 106.7.
2363 Have you looked at these other frequencies?
2364 MR. COWIE: We had two looks at it, one from D.M. Allan & Associates
who will, by the way, be here after we return from the break, next week, and
will be available for the Commission at that time. Unfortunately, both of the
reports we had done looked at ways of providing an alternate frequency for the
CBC. And both looked at 88.1. While it is deficient in some areas, I think
Abbotsford and other areas, with some technical adjustments it could be done.
The problem there was with the CHEK transmitter from Victoria. It could be done
and could provide, in the view of both these engineers, a viable alternate for
2365 107.1, which was talked about by one of the other applicants earlier,
neither of these proposes 107.1 as a viable option.
2366 They did not look at the other options that may or may not exist.
2367 So that unfortunately is the extent of what I can offer today, to answer
2368 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So you have looked at 88.1 and 107.1?
2369 MR. COWIE: Yes.
2370 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And they are saying they are both not great?
2371 MR. COWIE: They say that 107 is severely limited, and with 88.1, while
it would give coverage to the marketplace, there are some fringe areas -- I
shouldn't say that, Abbotsford is not a fringe area, but there are some outlying
2372 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In a technical sense.
2373 MR. COWIE: In a technical sense, where it would be difficult.
2374 It might very well, in the view of both of our engineers, capture the
kind of audience that CBC was interested in achieving in the greater Vancouver
marketplace. So I think on that basis it may be helpful for the Commission to
have the benefit of their combined thinking on that issue.
2375 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Sorry if I am trying to summarize or read between
the lines here, Mr. Cowie. You are saying we should give one of these
frequencies to the CBC, and 94.5 would be optimum for you, as opposed
2376 MR. COWIE: Yes. Speaking for ourselves, and I am sure you have
questioned other applicants as well, we think that the best use of 94.5 is for a
mainstream broadcasting station, particularly in our case, because we do think
this format is going to take some time to grow. The larger the coverage area to
work with, the better the opportunity at viability.
2377 So, yes, we do agree with that.
2378 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: If 94.5 were not to be granted to you, would you
rather have one of these, rather not, be licensed? What would your preference be
2379 MR. COWIE: We would accept another FM designation if it were technically
feasible to do so. The answer to that is yes, we want to launch this format in
the Vancouver market.
2380 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And either of these two frequencies we have talked
about would be an acceptable second choice?
2381 MR. COWIE: I don't think, until further study, that we could conclude
that. I am seeing this material, one of them at least, for the first time today.
The first report we got said the 88.1 was not acceptable. We are now finding
that 88.1 might be, with some technical changes and agreements and so on.
2382 I would not reject these out-of-hand. We would agree that if there was
another viable frequency available in the market, and we were asked to move
there in order to obtain a licence, we would agree with that.
2383 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: If you can be any more specific about that in
subsequent phases, it would be useful. It helps to have the most precise
information on the record.
2384 MR. COWIE: Yes, of course.
2385 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Would your projections in CTD commitments be the
same with a different frequency?
2386 MR. COWIE: Yes. They are committed.
2387 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me move to local positioning. First, let's
talk about employment equity.
2388 I noticed from your Application, page 323 of the record, that in terms
of employment equity, you said you don't have an employment equity plan. I
understand Craig has over 100 employees. Would that be right?
2389 MS STRAIN: Commissioner Cardozo, we certainly do plan -- we do not
have one now because if licensed, we would be a new licensee altogether, but
certainly Craig does have, and Harvard as well has employment equity initiatives
in place. I might ask Drew to speak to some of that.
2390 MR. CRAIG: Certainly.
2391 Craig is over 100 employees, and we do have an employment equity plan in
place. This is a little bit different situation, because it would be a new
licence and would not fall under that, but we would expect that we would be
fully compliant. And we would utilize all the benefits that Craig has in terms
of its employment equity objectives. For instance, we have a consultant who
works with us, and this new licence would have the benefit of the experience
that we have had as a larger organization, and we would expect that we would
certainly have an employment equity practice that would be acceptable.
2392 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Maybe you could clarify for me. The way I
understand it is, it may be a separate licensee but the way we look at the more
or less 100 employees is to look at the company as a whole, as opposed to each
2393 MR. CRAIG: It is our understanding that it would fall under a separate
2394 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: For the rest of Craig, do you have the same
ownership with Harvard?
2395 MR. CRAIG: No.
2396 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So this is --
2397 MR. CRAIG: This is a new kind of ownership structure. But if it is was
acceptable to the Commission, we could certainly roll out the Craig employment
equity plan into this new licence.
2398 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So in terms of your planning for a station in
Vancouver, you had not started to look at how you would go about that, about the
staffing of it, with employment equity being part of how you approach it?
2399 MR. COWIE: Certainly we had thought about a transference of what Craig
does and what we do at Harvard into this new station, in terms of both our
hiring practices. In addition to that, making sure that the four points are
uppermost in the minds of the managers who will be hired to operate the station
on a stand-alone basis in the Vancouver market, but complete adherence to
employment equity principles.
2400 MS STRAIN: Commissioner Cardozo, we did offer some information on that
as well in section 5.9 of the Application, some of the initiatives we would
think of, were we licensed.
2401 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me just pursue one general question that Madam
Chair was asking the previous applicant. I am not necessarily looking at your
company specifically, but in terms of the people appearing before us, when you
look at the equity issue, I suppose the radio industry, and certainly the
management of the radio industry, has not included women a whole lot, although
this panel may have been maybe more reflective of the reality of society than
some of the others. I am thinking particulary of Smooth Jazz, where Jazz has its
origins in the African-American experience, and I don't notice anybody with much
diversity in the people they are bringing in. Is that an issue that does get
attention, is not important?
2402 MR. COWIE: Beginning at the fact that this is new licence and a new
stand-alone business that we are proposing for Vancouver, maybe the way to come
at it is to talk about experiences for a minute, then transpose those into what
you can expect in this radio station, should we be successful.
2403 My history has been in television and, for the long part of my life,
with CTV. While I was there, and before I was there and after I took less of a
role, the changes in that company are night and day in terms of employment
2404 Most of the senior managers in the CTV network are women, the Senior
Vice President of the Executive Vice President and Managing Director, Trina
McQueen. The Senior Vice President of Programming, Finance, Sales and Marketing,
Human Resources, are all women. The Manager of the Calgary station, Pac
McDougall, the first woman station manager in the group. In addition to that,
CTV has been a very strong supporter of CWC.
2405 Going over to the others side, into radio, in Regina -- and I will
have Drew speak to this as well -- we have had a proactive all inclusive
operation in that Prairie city for many years. Unfortunately, we have been a
training centre for -- in particular, most of the aboriginal employees who
come to us end up working somewhere else. In fact, the lead anchor in the APTN
is one of our graduates.
2406 Just recently -- I just found out about this in the last day or
two -- I was asking about the program "My Partners, My People", I don't
know whether you have ever seen that, it is an aboriginal program that now runs
on the National Aboriginal Network, and I had not seen it in 20 years. I funded
the first edition of that in Regina, 25 years ago.
2407 Just recently, I was asking about some of the people. I came up with the
name I was looking for. I just said his name is Will, that's all I could
remember. I just want to relate a short anecdotal addition to this, of what
happened with an aboriginal employee we unfortunately just lost, but lost in a
good way, and I would like Michael to tell you about that.
2408 MR. OLSTROM: Thank you, Bruce.
2409 As a manager in Regina, it is always difficult finding employees, and
good employees, great employees, who will stay with you, because they do move
on, and careers move on.
2410 I have one employee, William Alexander, probably the best voice we had
in our building, did afternoon drive on our AM Oldies station. I unfortunately
lost him to the Okanese First Nation, his home reserve, where he went back to,
along with donations that the company has made with old equipment, to put
together an Application to the CRTC for a community radio station. He is going
to manage and program that radio station.
2411 In addition, it again becomes a training process that we go through in
the smaller markets. We lost one of our producers, a great producer, who moved
on to another company, an aboriginal as well.
2412 MR. COWIE: Thank you for that.
2413 That was to illustrate that we do have a total inclusive philosophy in
terms of our operating, and we do look towards and will discriminate in favour
of, particularly in Regina, where we have a very large aboriginal population, we
will try to find aboriginal talents that can come to work for us. While we hate
to see them go, we always wish them well if they are moving to a higher
2414 You can expect the same of us in Vancouver, and our home here would
reflect the cultural diversity of the marketplace.
2415 I am just going to ask Drew to --
2416 MR. CRAIG: Commissioner Cardozo, I think our industry has come a long
way. I, like Bruce, have spent most of my career in the TV side of things, and I
think, in terms of employment equity, things have moved ahead a lot further in
television than they certainly have in radio.
2417 When you walk in this room and you take a look at the number of males in
executive positions and the lack of females, I think it is an indication that
the radio business has a long way to go.
2418 In our particular case, we have taken some very aggressive steps to
change that. We have a relatively small executive team at our company. The Vice
President of Corporate Development is a woman, the Chief Financial Officer is a
woman, the Vice President of Legal and Regulatory Affairs is a woman. We have
women program managers, and so on.
2419 We have also made an attempt to put women on our board. It is one of the
initiatives that I think the CAB is certainly behind. I think that is where it
starts. It starts at the top down.
2420 I think we would be the first to admit that the radio industry as a
whole has a long way to go, and we are certainly wary of that and concerned
about it, and we are proactive in our approach in terms of recruitment.
2421 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So is it fair to say that as a Prairie based
company, where there are large aboriginal populations in the major cities, that
that is an area where you have focused and have had some success?
2422 MR. CRAIG: We have had a lot of success in that area. It is challenging.
But we have been very proactive.
2423 A lot of our stations are smaller stations, and I think one of the
things that you have heard other applicants say is that when you do develop
talent -- for instance, we have developed a lot of aboriginal reporters and
producers, and we have lost a lot of those people to larger organizations. We
have taken a lot of pride in the development of these people's careers, but
unfortunately it is harder for some of the smaller organizations to hang on to
them when there are other career advancement opportunities.
2424 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I suppose the poaching will stop when the critical
numbers get there, and you will be poaching from each other instead of always
away from you.
2425 Often in this discussion there is a suggestion that is very hard to do,
it is very difficult, it is challenging, but I am wondering if you think that
the challenge is more in terms of finding and promoting people, or is it in
finding the will to do it?
2426 MR. COWIE: In our case --
2427 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And not necessarily just in terms of the top
person of the corporation, but in terms of the people, the middle management who
are doing the actual hiring and promoting.
2428 MR. COWIE: The will to do it is resident in this group. It is difficult,
in many cases, to find the people to put into place and grow. But we continue to
be committed to that.
2429 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: My last comment on this, I am struck, as we
discuss employment equity in this province, it is the one where you are not
talking about some elusive goal but rather trying to catch up with reality,
where this is a province that has had the first female premier and the first
visible minority premier, where each of them, it would seem, took over from
other fellows who were resigning under a cloud -- I don't want to get too
political, especially as we are heading into a federal election.
2430 It is worth pointing out that this is a province that has made some
steps, and it is not a matter of coming up with a reflection of something that
does not exist, but rather just reflecting the reality.
2431 Connection to the local community. I notice in today's oral presentation
you talked about an advisory committee. How do you connect yourselves to the
2432 MR. COWIE: The advisory committee we spoke of will have two functions.
The first one is to assist with the distribution of the Canadian Talent
Development funds, and to help us find our way around the community to make sure
that nobody is missed, where we might be able to offer some real assistance.
That is one.
2433 The second part of it is, we will hire against a policy which is --
I shouldn't use the word "policy", against a type of person who will -- I
like to say that home is where the heart is -- who will be busy in this
community and making sure that we visit every corner of it, and that we are
involved in the life of the community on a day-to-day basis. This has nothing to
do with Canadian Talent Development. This is our commitment to the marketplace,
and making sure that if it's good for Vancouver, it's on our air.
2434 You can't do everything, but it would have to be something really
foreign to the goodwill of the city for us not to consider doing it. So we will
hire against that kind of individual.
2435 By the way, it is that kind of individual who makes radio the business
that it is, that hours don't matter, it is getting the job done and making sure
that intimate connection we talked about in our oral presentation is made,
because that is what makes radio a success.
2436 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So it is some of the programming you have talked
2437 MR. COWIE: That is part of it.
2438 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: -- "Access Vancouver", "Breeze
2439 MR. COWIE: That is part of it. If I can, in an anecdotal way, talk to
you about the Saskatchewan Rough Riders for a minute. If it wasn't for radio and
personal attachments over the years, that franchise would not exist. It just
wouldn't, because it is something that the people want and need, and therefore
it is in our best interest to support it. But that is just one facet of
2440 In the radio stations we have now, we are into every part of the
community that needs us there, and we expect to be there, and are happy to be
there. If you do that right, you will be successful in this business.
2441 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What you won't have is local reporters. Am I
2442 MR. COWIE: It's not that we will not have access to local news.
2443 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I am thinking more of the men and women who will
go out and talk to people and --
2444 MR. COWIE: Again, as part of -- we will be a small staff in terms
of what you would require to run a full fledged news operation, but we
2445 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So you would anticipate having developing
personalities who would be sought by community groups to host events --
2446 MR. COWIE: Yes.
2447 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Lastly on ownership. We have talked about this a
bit over the past couple of days.
2448 What is your advice -- I have a sense of what your advice would be,
but I wonder if you could say it anyhow -- in terms of ownership, whether
local ownership, Vancouver, B.C. ownership is important. I am thinking of some
of the issues that Madam Chair and others have talked about, that sometimes a
company headquartered here may have a certain approach, but I am also thinking
of the either symbolic or the emotional tie that people have to a national or a
large regional corporation that is headquartered in the province, whether there
is any role for the Commission, whether we should be concerned about where
companies had headquartered in this age of consolidation, where the
consolidation tends to focus towards the Toronto vortex.
2449 Is it important to have some kind of B.C. based owned companies in the
2450 MR. COWIE: I think first it is important to have diversity of voices.
And that is one of the criteria that you have set out for yourselves in dealing
with these licence applications.
2451 I think that companies that operate in the region might have a better
understanding of the marketplace, might have, and that does not for a minute
suggest that a company from Toronto can't come to Vancouver and do a great job
of running radio stations, and be great community supporters.
2452 Our view on that, we are talking about coming from another place, is
that when we come here, it will be an independent business to live and work in
Vancouver. The people will be Vancouver residents, and will be charged, as part
of their review, if you want to put it that way, with their input to the
community, with their contribution to this community, as we would do in Calgary
or Edmonton or Regina or anywhere else.
2453 I think diversity of voices is the answer to your question, and
licensing good operators, who you believe in and who the Commission might test
on that over time, in terms of what they have done.
2454 In our case, it would give us an opportunity to assure that some
tertiary markets we have continue to be independent, and are not lost to
2455 I understand your concerns about consolidation. I think if through that,
as a Commission, you can find your way to making sure you get applicants who
will live, work and become an integral part of the community, and also provide
diverse voices, I think then you will have done well.
2456 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me put it differently and see if I get a
different answer -- not that I want a different answer, but I am just
trying to get more your sense of this, and either you or Mr. Craig may want to
2457 Craig is a western based company, as is Harvard. Should that, in any
way, get preference over a Toronto based company, where most corporations tend
to be headquartered? Is that an issue that the Commission should concern itself
2458 MR. COWIE: I will let Drew speak to this, but I think the criteria, it
is my view, that I presented to you a minute ago, about good citizenship, a
major, complete and unquestioned commitment to the community should be the
2459 We think, in our particular case, this licence would help us accomplish
something else, and at the same time transport our kind of business operations
that are successful, that are well received in the communities we serve, into
the Vancouver market. And I think we would melt into the countryside here pretty
2460 But, is there a preference for us, because we are a western based
company, over a company from Toronto? Probably not, but we would have, I think,
a closer affinity to our western roots than perhaps someone from Toronto would
have. Whether that makes a difference that is measurable, I don't know.
2461 I'll ask Drew to respond as well.
2462 MR. CRAIG: Commissioner Cardozo, you heard us speak out against
consolidation at a lot of different hearings. I think, frankly, diversity of
ownership is important in Canada. I think it is an underlying issue that I think
we are going to have to wrestle with as an industry, but really I think in terms
of this particular case, I think it is the order of magnitude of the
2463 Large players have a lot of opportunity to raise capital, to buy
stations, to sell stations. Large players can get into this market by buying an
outlet if it comes up for sale.
2464 I think, in a new licence proceeding, it is an opportunity to introduce
some fresh blood into the particular market that you are looking at, and I think
that is what you have in our Application. I think we have demonstrated our
ability to do start-ups, to move into a community, to dig in, to have the
passion to really make a difference, and I think the group of people that you
have in front of you are quite prepared to come out to this market and
demonstrate that as well.
2465 We are both small to medium size players, and I think that the size that
we both are, in terms of our respective radio holdings, allows us to put a
different spin on how we approach the market. We are both very much entrenched
in our local communities that we serve, and I think that is what you would
2466 You really haven't had a chance to hear from some of the people on the
panel about some of the initiatives in the local community, but I think that we
can bring an excitement, enthusiasm and passion to this market that perhaps
bigger applicants can't do. It is just another outlet that they look at on their
financial results every month, to see how they are doing.
2467 So I think this is a great market, it is an important market. We are
very enthusiastic about the format itself. It is breaking new ground, it is
starting something new, and I think that players our size are good at that.
2468 I just sort of leave you with that.
2469 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you.
2470 Do you have any summarizing or closing comments you would like to
2471 MR. COWIE: I would ask you to consider the fact that we want very much
to introduce this format into the Vancouver market. We believe it has the best
opportunity to be successful here.
2472 The opportunity to be at the beginning of a new force to create a whole
new wave of Canadian talent is very appealing to us, and we think that the
circle works; if we create the talent, the talent will support the format, and
the format will be successful.
2473 We have a track record that should give you comfort, that our business
plan will work, that we are committed to what we are offering here, and that we
think that as these licenses proliferate in other cities across the country,
that we might be a pretty good basis for future decisions on those applications,
and hopefully might be a part of the applicants because, as Drew put it, this is
likely at the beginning level, at a new station level is likely our only way in.
We can't afford to pay those prices that radio stations are going for these
days, but we can build one, and make a contribution to this community very
quickly, and based on some solid past success.
2474 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Mr. Cowie and colleagues.
2475 Madam Chair, that completes my questions.
2476 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cardozo.
2477 Commissioner Cram.
2478 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
2479 My first question was about the market study. I will be asking Ms
McLaughlin, but it doesn't mean anybody else can't answer.
2480 Both here and in Calgary I have seen studies done based on names of the
artists, "Would you like to see a radio station where Mary Anderson, Mickey Most
and somebody else play?", or, where the actual genre was given, "Would you like
Soft Jazz?", "Would you like Classic?", would you like this --
2481 In your case, you did a montage, if I understand correctly, of
2482 Are there studies that show which is sort of the more reliable?
2483 MS McLAUGHLIN: You can appreciate that if we are confused about the
categories in the descriptors, on a consumer level, who gives it no thought
whatsoever, nor should they, there is a great deal of --
2484 COMMISSIONER CRAM: This is CRTC land -- I understand.
--- Laughter / Rires
2485 MS McLAUGHLIN: There is a great deal of confusion, so to describe a
format as Soft Rock leaves a lot of room for interpretation. What you try to do
in research is narrow down that potential bias, by being very specific in what
you ask the respondent.
2486 In the research that was done by Canadian Facts, it was approached on
two levels. I cannot speak to what other applicants have done either here or in
Calgary, but each of the respondents were asked, describing a format by the
artist. So, for New AC/Smooth Jazz, it would be Diana Krall, some of the names
you have seen here today.
2487 Certainly if you were outside of that group of listeners, people who
would be buying CDs or going to concerts, you are not going to recognize those
names. So the response rate is going to fairly low.
2488 What it tends to do is depress the overall interest levels, because
music is an experience, and to describe Diana Krall without having her voice,
the music, the whole feel of the song, unless you know her, you are not going to
say, yes, I would listen to it.
2489 We also asked people about their purchase habits, in terms of what they
were buying, what CDs. So it is really two approaches to the measurement.
2490 Very often, the type of research used to program a station involves
listening and getting people's reaction, but in the context of examining the
full market and what would work best in this market, you are very limited. You
cannot keep a respondent on the phone while you go through playlists over and
over again, and frankly despite the distinction in the categories set out by the
CRTC and for many of us, music fans here, they do blend into one another on the
2491 The very long answer to your question, and I apologize for that, is,
yes, there are tests, and yes, there are differences, and they apply in
different cases, but in order to measure a market, this is the most effective
way we found.
2492 COMMISSIONER CRAM: My next question was, you talked about 14 per cent of
Chinese people would be interested in this format. I note from, I believe it is
The Financial Post's 2000 estimates, that in the CMA there are 5.5 per cent of
the population who speak Chinese.
2493 What was the sample size of the Chinese?
2494 MS. McLAUGHLIN: I have to go back to a point that I made earlier, and
that is, we did not survey any particular ethno cultural group to the extent
that I could say to you that "X" per cent of the Chinese population, either
those speaking Cantonese or Mandarin, would want to listen to the station. In
order to do that, you would have to have a minimum sample of perhaps 400 in each
one of those, which we clearly did not have.
2495 What we did have was a sample that was representative in terms of
distribution of the full market. For example, if the ethno cultural group
identified as Chinese represents 15 per cent of the population, 15 per cent of
our sample was in it.
2496 The number I referred to earlier was the breakdown of our listening
audience. It is relevant in that it represents the distribution of the market in
terms of ethno cultural groups, without saying 40 per cent of Chinese people are
interested in this format, because that survey just was not conducted and, to
the best of my knowledge, by none of the applicants was that type of sample put
into the market.
2497 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So what you did is that out of the 600 people you
surveyed, you modelled it on the -- you mimicked the cultural diversity of
the Vancouver CMA.
2498 MS McLAUGHLIN: What we did was we conducted a random survey, and the
whole idea behind random surveying is if it is done correctly and you poll the
sample correctly, when you look at the respondents, they will fall out exactly
along the ethno cultural lines of the market, as well the demographics. It is
one of the first things you do after you get this research back, is you go back
to see where the potential bias --
2499 If we had found, for example, that had absolutely no Chinese
representation, we would not have brought the survey forward, but it did meet
the distribution within the market.
2500 Having said that, within that sample size, it is not sufficient to go
back and make statements about any of the cultural groups outside of the whole
2501 COMMISSIONER CRAM: As a whole.
2502 MS McLAUGHLIN: Yes, as a whole. We just have to talk about it as a
whole, but we can break out our listenership by saying, this per cent of our
listenership state that they are of the Chinese culture, this per cent say they
are francophones -- and that is what we did, in fact.
2503 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Do you have the breakdown for Punjabis and
2504 MS McLAUGHLIN: I do, but I do not have it at my fingertips. I believe
that those two groups combined would be 3 per cent of our listenership.
2505 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. Subject to check. If there is a
2506 MS McLAUGHLIN: Those cross tabs were not filed with our research. They
were done -- it would have been massive. We can file those.
2507 COMMISSIONER CRAM: As long as the number is correct, that's all I am
worried about. Certainly if the number is incorrect, if your memory is
incorrect -- I can understand that happening, because I sometimes
forget -- then you will let us know.
2508 MS McLAUGHLIN: Yes.
2509 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
2510 Thank you, Madam Chair.
2511 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
2512 I just have a couple of questions.
2513 First, out of curiosity. I noticed that you were referring to an LA
station and what it billed last year. Was it 41 million? I am wondering how you
get individual station figures.
2514 MR. TYSON: Actually, it was an interview with the manager last week, in
Radio and Records last week.
2515 THE CHAIRPERSON: So they shared that magic number.
2516 MR. TYSON: Yes. I was kind of astounded by the figure. That is the only
one I know.
2517 THE CHAIRPERSON: Your discussion with Commissioner Cardozo on how we
might be evaluating the various competing applications, in terms of whether it
is ownership and size and diversity, you referenced the fact that you are a
local company, have operations in smaller markets -- smaller than Vancouver
markets -- in western Canada. Do you think this is an element that we might
consider in looking at these applications? Some of the applicants do operate
smaller market stations in western Canada, and some don't. I wonder if that is
something we should look at.
2518 MR. COWIE: I think the point there, Commissioner Grauer, was that there
is an opportunity here, and we believe a benefit, to keep tertiary market
stations viable, if you can carry them, so to speak, and allow them to continue
to serve their mandate, by being successful in larger markets.
2519 It is a straight connection that we thought was an added benefit that
the Commission might be interested in.
2520 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
2521 Just so I am clear, there are a couple of other applicants. In other
words, we do have some applicants that operate only in larger markets, and
others who operate in both. Is that something that you think we might consider
particularly with regard to smaller markets, other than just yourself,
understanding, of course, that you want to make the case for your own
application, but is this something that --
2522 MR. COWIE: I think you are seeing two dynamics here. One is that,
firstly, we wish to expand our radio business. This is the second application
where we are attempting to do that. That is one thing, and we found a compatible
partner to do that, that shares our business philosophy and so on, so we wish to
build our radio business from there. That is one thing.
2523 The benefit I was referring to was, if we were successful in that, it
might very well allow us to stay in the radio business in those smaller markets,
and not necessarily by subsidizing those markets, but being able to accept in a
greater way any losses that might occur there.
2524 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand that, and I take your point. I guess what
it got me thinking, in terms of how the discussion was going, is clearly there
is a lot of consolidation taking place, and clearly by the number of applicants
that we have had here for this frequency in Vancouver there is a lot of
interest, and a lot of companies growing.
2525 When we look at consolidation, and there is nothing wrong with it, it is
an integral part of our new commercial radio policy, what is the flip side of
it? I think what we have talked about a bit is maybe new voices, and there may
be some other things.
2526 As we struggle with a lot of applications here, it is important to
really see what the views are of the various applicants to some of these
elements, which are things we might be considering, one of which is, clearly,
whether it is in British Columbia, whether it is in western Canada, or whether
it is in other parts of Canada, there are smaller markets that are just not as
lucrative as the big ones. Should we be considering those elements when we go to
license a big frequency like this?
2527 MR. COWIE: We are asking you to, in this case, and I hope you would. I
can't help you philosophically as a commission with that, but I think there is
some value in listing that among other benefits to the broadcasting system to
maintain strong radio operations in smaller markets. And this would help us
2528 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
2530 MR RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam Chair.
2531 Mr. Cowie, I just have two questions.
2532 You would incorporate a company called "The Breeze Inc.", which would be
a 50-50 proposition between the Craig Group and the Harvard Group?
2533 MR. COWIE: That is correct.
2534 MR. RHÉAUME: Who would control the company?
2535 MR. COWIE: The Memorandum of Understanding that we filed with the
Commission indicates that the company would be owned 50-50. There would be a
board of directors of four people, two from Craig, two from Harvard. The Chair
would rotate every two years.
2536 The only other pertinent part of the agreement is that there is an
arbitration clause in it, in case we decided we could not run it together
somewhere down the road, but we do not anticipate that at all. That is how we
would operate the business.
2537 MR. RHÉAUME: That's fine, but who makes the ongoing business decisions
at the board level?
2538 MR. COWIE: The responsibility for operating the station will be the
station management, and it will be a stand-alone operation, with its full
management complement, and obviously the board will be a part of that in terms
of annual budgets, capital expenses and those sorts of things.
2539 MR. RHÉAUME: So the chairman of the board would be a nominee from Craig
or Harvard, on an alternative basis.
2540 MR. COWIE: That is correct.
2541 MR. RHÉAUME: Does the chairman of the board have a veto or have a
casting vote in any fashion?
2542 MS STRAIN: No. That is why we put the binding arbitration clause in, so
that decisions by the board would require unanimity between the two parties. But
in the event of a dispute, which we don't anticipate, we put the arbitration
clause in to deal with that.
2543 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.
2544 Formats. You answered a question from Commissioner Cardozo, saying "we
would gladly accept a condition of licence on format". What did you have in mind
by that answer?
2545 MR. COWIE: I think what we were trying to illustrate there was that we
are committed to the format. It is understood that if the CRTC were to issue the
licence under current policy, that we could in fact change the format down the
road. So it was an attempt to convince the Commission that, if necessary, we
would accept the condition to show, in good faith, that we intend to be in and
grow this format through the licence period, and we are.
2546 MR. RHÉAUME: The reason I am asking, and I am not quite sure if I still
understand your answer, but the format that you have applied for is a Condition
of Licence. In other words, you have applied for a Category 2 format, which
essentially means that you cannot become a Specialty format.
2547 I am still not sure what you had in mind when you said you would accept
a condition of licence.
2548 MS STRAIN: Counsel, I guess the first thing I just want to reiterate is
that the Hamilton Smooth Jazz new AC station that was licensed is a mainstream
format, and has no conditions of licence. I realize that decision was made
before some of the changes to the categories, but just sort of looking at it
2549 We propose to play a very similar kind of music, and our concern is
that -- in the first few years, we probably would be within the realm of a
Specialty format. Our concern is that in the year 5, 6 and 7 of the licence, as
we see this format proliferating in Canada and in the U.S., that it will become
a mainstream format and that there will be more difficulty categorizing a Sting
song that might be in subcategory 34, which might also be considered a charted
hit in the Popular Music category.
2550 So we would accept a Condition of Licence that we will stay in the
Smooth Jazz format for the first term of the licence.
2551 MR. RHÉAUME: Well, I am going to tell you what my problem is. There is
no such animal as a Smooth Jazz format.
2552 Maybe you want to consider your answer again, and come back in
intervention, or possibly after the break, Madam Chairman?
2553 MR. COWIE: There is Smooth Jazz licences. What was the licence issued in
Hamilton? Was that not a Smooth Jazz mainstream licence?
2554 MR. RHÉAUME: It could well be. Then, that would be a Category 2 format.
If that is what your answer is, that's fine. I just want to make sure I
understand what your answer is to Commissioner Cardozo's question.
2555 MR. COWIE: We will be playing the same songs as that applied for and
approved in Hamilton.
2556 MR. RHÉAUME: That's fine. Thank you.
2557 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
2558 We will take our afternoon break, and return in 25 minutes, at
2559 Thank you.
--- Upon recessing at 1525 / Suspension à 1525
--- Upon resuming at 1545 / Reprise à 1545
2560 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madame Secretary, please.
2561 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.
2562 Our next applicant is an Application by Classic 94.5 FM Limited, for a
broadcasting licence to carry on an English language FM radio programming
undertaking at Vancouver.
2563 The new station would operate on frequency 94.5, with an effective
radiated power of 46,000 watts. The Applicant is proposing a Classical Music
2564 It is my understanding that there has been a clarification that it is 85
per cent rather than 80 per cent of music drawn from subcategory 31 concert, and
15 per cent of the music drawn from subcategory 34, Jazz and Blues. Is that
2565 MR. OAKES: Yes, 85.
2566 MS VOGEL: Thank you.
2567 Please go ahead.
APPLICATION / APPLICATION
2568 MS ROBERTSON: Good afternoon. I am Catherine Robertson. I am Chairman of
Classic 94.5 FM Limited.
2569 I am joined today by Robert Sunter, on my far right, who is President of
our company. He is a broadcast media consultant who took early retirement from
CBC, having served as Head of Radio Music nationally and Head of CBC Radio in
2570 On my immediate right is Robert Blackwood. He is our Vice President of
Programming Development, and he is the B.C. based broadcaster, media consultant,
2571 On my immediate left is David Oakes, President of Oakes Research. He
assisted us with our audience analysis and revenue projections in preparing our
2572 On my far left is Greg Reid, Manager of Administration and Finance for
the Robertson Group of companies and Classic 94.5 FM.
2573 The row behind me, on my far right is Bramwell Tovey, Music Director and
Conductor of The Vancouver Symphony Orchestra.
2574 Beside him is Lori Baxter, the Executive Director of the Alliance for
Arts and Culture.
2575 Next is Eli Gershkovitch, a Vancouver business executive, lawyer, and
Principal of Steamworks Brewing Company.
2576 Behind me is David Simpson, who is sitting in and will speak on behalf
of Jesse Read, who is a Director of Faculty of Music at the University of B.C.
David Simpson is the Director of Recording and Audio at the Faculty of Music at
2577 We are here today to propose a new radio station -- 100 per cent
locally owned, operated and programmed -- that will add significantly to
the diversity of choice in Vancouver.
2578 The CRTC has already licensed commercial classic music and arts stations
in Toronto and Montréal. Both are thriving in terms of audience and financial
returns. All major American cities have such stations. In San Francisco, it is
one of the three most popular stations in the market. And in London, England,
Classic FM last year won the award for the most popular station in the U.K.
2579 We believe it is time for Vancouver arts and music audiences as well as
advertisers to have their own place, and the same choice as listeners in
virtually all other large North American cities.
2580 What will Classic 94.5 offer to the listener? Great recorded concert and
jazz music -- the best in the world -- well presented, seven days a
2581 Classic 94.5 FM will be unique in this market. It will offer listeners
true diversity from the programming currently available.
2582 We will have hosts with knowledge, experience and commitment to the
broadcasting of music and the arts.
2583 Minimum talk during most of the schedule.
2584 No commercial interruptions were inappropriate. We will play full
symphonies or jazz suites uninterrupted during significant parts of our
2585 Strong emphasis on the recordings of British Columbia and Canadian
2586 Arts news and arts billboards throughout the entire schedule, with
additional information within the programs. This will be carried out in
partnership with the Alliance for Arts and Culture -- a local organization
composed of some 270 arts and music organizations and individuals -- which
currently provides an excellent arts information hotline.
2587 We will broadcast live concerts, both in partnership with sponsoring
organizations and as special presentations to the station.
2588 We will have specialized programs on the weekend, some of which again
will be in partnership with arts and music organizations or individuals. These
will appeal to the diverse specific interests of our audience.
2589 We will be developing and presenting Vancouver musicians, critics and
educators as hosts and on-air contributors, and we will be creating a
comprehensive website to provide playlist and other information in detail about
our programming -- including links to other music and arts specialty
2590 Simply stated, we will add significantly to the diversity of listener
choice, just as similar stations have in Montréal and Toronto.
2591 What will we offer the advertiser? The opportunity to zero in on a
specific niche market in Vancouver, a highly efficient buy for the upscale
2592 We will also offer a highly targeted market for arts and entertainment
businesses and organizations. Currently, these advertisers have to purchase
broad-based media, with considerable wastage of promotional dollars.
2593 Our policy will be to maintain a low commercial load, in keeping with a
classical music and jazz format. Advertising will be integrated with program
flow and style. Ad production will be carefully monitored to maintain
2594 We will work with advertisers to develop sponsorship opportunities for
performances as well as specialized programming.
2595 Our commitment to unique programming and to commercial opportunity is
matched by our plans for the development of Canadian -- with an emphasis on
West Coast -- content and thus talent.
2596 A commercial classic station is not like other commercial stations. And
an independent station is not like a member of a corporate broadcasting chain.
We will not be sharing music or other programming libraries. We will not embrace
national syndicated formats. And therefore, we are proposing a unique approach
to talent development.
2597 We see little value in contributing to FACTOR, as they do not produce
music that would be presented on our station. We are not proposing, as many of
the other applicants for this radio licence have, to give donations to existing
2598 We believe that what we are proposing is true talent development --
investment in the careers of local Vancouver performing artists.
2599 Our plan is to spend $50,000 in our first year of operation on direct
talent development. This is direct payment to record and broadcast performances
in Vancouver. We have committed a minimum of $50,000 each year for the
seven-year period of the licence. In addition, we have committed that this
number will increase each year as revenues for the station increase. If our
revenue projections hold true, we will be allocating $164,000 a year by year
seven to direct talent development.
2600 In addition, we will add an indirect contribution to talent development
in Vancouver. We estimate this will bring an annual benefit of approximately
$800,000 to Vancouver. Given the short time to negotiate arrangements, we were
not able to include all of the detail in our submission.
2601 We would like to point out that we would undertake to implement the
following activities, whether it is a CRTC requirement or not, as we feel this
is a necessity to build audience support.
2602 If I could direct your attention to the chart. We have a four part
program. We would be developing specialized radio broadcast talent. This is
training musicians and other artists to be on-air hosts, recording engineers to
master music pick-ups, and members of the music and arts community to be radio
producers. We estimate it is a benefit of about $30,000 a year.
2603 The second part is an on-air exposure for young talent. We will let our
audiences hear the advanced music students; we will let them hear our
orchestras, recitals and jazz gigs. We plan to broadcast performances of the UBC
Faculty of Music orchestra, the Opera School, and those of the outstanding music
students of both UBC and the Vancouver Academy of Music. Broadcast opportunities
will also be offered to non-professional local ensembles, choirs and soloists,
and the advanced jazz students from both Capilano and Douglas College. The
benefit of this to the community: $50,000 a year.
2604 We would also of course be doing on-air promotion of arts and
entertainment events. This would bring a benefit of between $300,000 and
$350,000 a year.
2605 Partnership with the visual and performing arts will bring a benefit of
$400,000 a year. As one example -- and we will give more details in the
question period -- we are pleased to be able to tell you that the Alliance
for Arts and Culture has agreed to a partnership arrangement with us on their
widely-admired "Arts Hotline". We are certain this is the first of a number of
opportunities to work with the Alliance.
2606 Turning to other specifics: The Vancouver radio market.
2607 Vancouver's economy is finally on the rebound. The Vancouver Economic
Development Commission is predicting a strong economic resurgence for the city
after two lacklustre years. Retail sales are up 3.1 per cent over last year, and
expected to do even better next year. The unemployment rate is down from 8 per
cent at this time last year to 5.4 per cent. Office space availability is at its
lowest level in 20 years. Many major building developments are underway.
2608 Downward blips in Vancouver's resource-dominated economy are not
unusual, and this community quickly adjusts to the prevailing economic climate.
In fact, in the last 10 years, Vancouver's population has grown by 20.5 per
cent, a higher rate of growth than in any other of the 12 largest cities in
Canada, and double the rate for the whole country. Whatever the economic status
of this province, advertisers here have to serve the needs of over two million
people, plus armies of tourists and conventioners who arrive here all year
2609 However, even in view of this cautious economic optimism, we have been
conservative in our revenue projections. We anticipate revenue in our first year
will be $1.8 million, rising to $4.2 million by our fourth year. This is based
on a share of hours tuned to Classic FM of 1.9 per cent in our first year,
rising t 3.9 per cent by the fourth year -- a much lower market share than
the commercial classical stations in Toronto and Montreal.
2610 All of this makes us confident that we will gain a sustainable share of
the growing annual revenue of Vancouver's radio stations. That revenue grew from
a total $73 million in 1995 to $90 million last year. Growth next year is
expected to be 3 per cent, rising to 4 per cent in 2003. By then, the annual
radio revenue in this market will be $102 million.
2611 We calculate that even with the introduction of Classic FM, the annual
income of the 17 existing stations will grow steadily, from an average of $5.28
million annually in 2001 to $6.62 million in 2007. That represents growth of 25
per cent during that time period.
2612 We will not be a threat to the existing stations. It is our belief that
the diversity we would bring to this market will attract many new radio
listeners and advertisers, and thus increase the size of the revenue pie. This
means we would have much less financial impact on the existing stations than
most of the other formats presented at this hearing.
2613 One of the questions I am sure you will ask, and we have decided to deal
with it before you ask, and that is, how will we be different from CBC Two?
2614 To repeat our earlier comments, the CRTC has already licensed commercial
classic music and arts stations in Toronto and Montréal, and in all major
American cities as well.
2615 In every case, these stations are succeeding side-by-side with public
radio -- whether it is Britain's BBC, NPR in the U.S., Montréal-based la
Chaîne culturelle, or CBC 2 in Toronto.
2616 Classic 94.5 FM will be first and foremost a local station, serving the
Vancouver market. CBC 2 is a national service and cannot devote more than a few
minutes a day to local billboards, PSAs and arts news. CBC 2 has only one hour a
week of Vancouver production.
2617 94.5 will:
2618 - Provide listeners with an unprecedented level of information on what
is happening in the arts in Canada's third largest city.
2619 - Tell listeners about local events and performances.
2620 - Have interviews with local and visiting performers, artists, creators
2621 - Have arts news stories locally, nationally and internationally.
2622 - Provide significant opportunities for Vancouver artists to be
2623 To determine whether a commercial classical station would succeed in
Vancouver, we looked at the history of such stations as KING FM in Seattle,
which is less than two hours drive from here, CFMX in Toronto, KDFC in San
Francisco, and Radio Classique in Montreal. As the total listening audience for
classical music typically is 6 to 8 per cent, we decided to take a case study
approach instead of an audience survey and, briefly:
- KING began in 1948 when the population of Greater Seattle was less than
500,000. Today, it is one of the most popular and profitable stations in that
- CFMX became a financial success in 1988 when the CRTC allowed it to move
into the Toronto market in Cobourg. It now attracts a 3.5 to 5.0 market
- KDFC has served San Francisco audiences for more than half a century. It
has been one of the top three stations there for the last three years, with a
weekly reach of over half a million listeners.
- The extraordinary success of Radio Classique (CJPX) in Montreal gives us
particular encouragement. Just over two years after receiving its licence from
the CRTC, it is attracting half a million listeners a week and maintains a
market share of 6 to 7 per cent.
2624 The musical and arts life of the city of Vancouver is large and
diversified. The Vancouver Symphony is the third largest orchestra in the
country and enjoys the second highest attendance. There are 40 classical music
and jazz organizations in the Lower Mainland.
2625 Combining the experience in other major cities with the local interest
in music, it is apparent that Vancouver would welcome a classical commercial
station that was taylor-made for this community.
2626 While we have been researching and developing the business case for
Classic 94.5 FM, we have been greatly encouraged by the interest and support of
so many members of the Vancouver arts and business community. In fact, the usual
response has been, "Tell us how we can help you get on air".
2627 We have therefore asked several of our supporters to participate as part
of our presentation panel today:
2628 In addition, we would to recognize and thank the many others who wrote
individual letters and e-mails in support of our Application. Some of them I
believe are here today: Kathleen Speakman, program director of the Vancouver
Arts Stabilization Team, which has invested millions of dollars in Vancouver's
major arts organizations. Michael Noon, director of the Chan Centre for the
Performing Arts at UBC. Michael Aze, director of production of the Vancouver
Symphony. The Hon. Royce Frith, Q.C., former Senator and High Commissioner to
London, and member of the board of the National Arts Centre. Jeff Alexander,
president and general manager of the Vancouver Symphony. We also received
letters from almost all members of the VSO board, two staff directors and a
number of the musicians.
2629 Bruce Calder, vice-president of Telus. Jane Coop, international concert
pianist and UBC music professor. Christopher Gaze, artistic director of Bard on
the Beach, our local Shakespearean Festival. Leila Getz, artistic director of
the Vancouver Recital Society. George Laverock, artistic director of Festival
Vancouver. Abe Sacks, president of Sacks Industries. Robert Silverman,
international concert pianist and UBC music professor. Ron Stern, president of
Alberta Newsprint. Leslie Uyeda, composer and opera conductor. Gillian Wilder,
manager of the Vancouver Bach Choir. James Wright, general director of the
2630 We also received letters from staff managers and board members of the
Vancouver Opera. Jose Verstappen, executive director of Early Music in
2631 I would like now to ask the other members of our panel, Bramwell Tovey,
David Simpson, Eli Gershkovitch and Lori Baxter to spend a few minutes telling
you why they are here to help us present our case today.
2632 Bramwell Tovey is the Music Director and Conductor of the Vancouver
Symphony Orchestra. He has directed the New York and London Philharmonic
orchestras. He has directed the D'Oly Carte Gilbert and Sullivan Opera
2633 MR. TOVEY: As you heard, my name is Bramwell Tovey. I am the Music
Director of the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra.
2634 We present a wide variety of music to the people of Vancouver, from
classical to baroque to romantic, to pop, to jazz, to swing, to kids'
entertainers. We do not use the term "soft" or "smooth" jazz, because such terms
are musically meaningless and our ticket buyers would be extremely confused by
2635 Although I am a classically trained conductor and pianist, I also
perform and record as a jazz pianist. So I come to you from two different
musical worlds today.
2636 Last weekend was a typical weekend in Vancouver's busy cultural life. On
Saturday, Vancouver Opera had a house of 3,000 for the opening night of
Stravinsky's opera "The Rake's Progress". Just two blocks away, the Vancouver
Symphony were playing a program of Schubert, Beethoven and Haydn to over 2,000
in the Orpheum Theatre, as we did again on Sunday, and again on Monday.
Tomorrow, the VSO begins an intensive three days, performing six concerts for
elementary school children from around the Greater Vancouver Area. We will have
played to over 8,000 children by the time everyone in this room turns off their
work station for the weekend this Friday.
2637 All this activity and energy is because of one thing: The power of
music. By that, of course, I mean classical music in particular.
2638 The very term "classical music" used to denote the world of Mozart and
Beethoven. Now, the term has become generic and to the lay person it embraces a
vast diversity of live performance acoustically played, all orchestral music
from across the centuries, all opera, core music, notated music of the
unamplified solo voice with accompaniment, ensemble music including string
quartets, brass ensembles, and wood wing quintets, and all the other items found
in the rich smorgasbord of live music making, including real improvised
2639 The power of this music is a language between people. It is a form of
communication that transcends everyday speech, that enhances the quality of
people's lives and provides challenge, solace, inspiration, illumination, and
stimulation. Classical music is a sharing of the human experience. It is an
articulation of the human condition. It can be administered in short or long
doses. For example, a simple leader through to a Wagnerian music drama.
2640 It is not elitist. It is crowned, however, with excellence, and the two
must not and should not be confused.
2641 Classical 94.5 FM would be available to everyone in our community. As
CBC Radio Two with its Toronto centric outlook has now given much of its prime
air time weekends and in the evenings to non-classical programming, there is a
desperate need in our community for a quality station of this kind. In fact, at
the moment a community based classical repertoire program, such as we are
talking about, is only available for one hour a week on CBC.
2642 To support this application is to realize that there is a quality of
life here in Vancouver, and a hugely popular quality of life, that is
unrepresented on any TV or radio station in our community. There are literally
thousands of choirs in the Lower Mainland, some of whom have recorded high
quality CDs which receive little or no attention on CBC.
2643 Toronto boasts its own classical radio stations which have become icons
in the community and brought many people to the life enhancing qualities of
2644 Classical FM will promote some of the finest creations of the human
mind, to an audience eager to hear and in need of a stimulation that has been
crowded out by the boring lyrics of Eminem or the alleged smooth or soft jazz of
elevator music that is never experienced life because of its soporific qualities
and the fact that it is marketable only as oral wallpaper.
2645 There is an aesthetic correlation between the world of contemporary
Canadian classical music culture and the Group of 7. I would suggest to you that
there will be a correlation between Smooth Jazz and the furry dice on the
windshield if you were to award this particular wave length to a non-classical
2646 I urge you to support Classical FM.
2647 MS ROBERTSON: Jesse Read, the Director of the Faculty of Music, was
unable to join us this afternoon, but he has asked David Simpson, who is an
audio director of the Faculty of Music, to speak on his behalf.
2648 MR. SIMPSON: I am going to read a note from Jesse:
2649 "Madam Chair and Commissioners, I am delighted to give my unreserved
support to the proposal of Classic 94.5 FM. I have lived in San Francisco and
Los Angeles; the model for this kind of commercial classical radio station is
already there, healthy and popular. It serves the public, the community, and
provides a solid alternative for a wide audience.
2650 Vancouver, at this time, in its maturity, cultural evolution and size,
is ready if not overdue for a station of this kind. The proposed format of this
station seems to focus on the very needs which have been neglected or abandoned
in Vancouver, and I welcome them being addressed in such a comprehensive and
2651 There is the recognition that there is a wealth of talent and a amazing
slate of performers which can be shared in broadcast, and that there is an
audience hungry for a serious programming of complete works, programs dedicated
to composers's styles, eras or artists of the past and present. There is also a
potential audience which needs to be given substantial and challenging
2652 I am particularly excited that there might be some unique and productive
partnerships formed from such a station which would make possible the exposure
of local professional talent as well as the creation of opportunities for the
young emerging top level talent from training institutions such as ours.
2653 There is an additional benefit in a linking partnership providing
opportunities for young talented individuals to train and have hands-on
experience in the associated arts represented -- that is, recording,
editing, hosting, planning, and even in the practical and necessary aspects of
funding and maintaining such an enterprise, that is the commercial end.
2654 I feel that this format fits not only our own obvious goals and ends,
but relates to the university stated aims of reaching into the community,
joining in projects which benefit students, creates real practical opportunities
for them, and generally strengthens the often talked about potential links from
the academic and artistic community to the general public.
2655 I cannot overstate the importance of this proposal, and I have every
reason to believe that it will add an immense and important piece to a yet
unformed cultural scene in Vancouver. Now is the time to look at culture,
substance and quality, and I believe the CRTC must exercise their mandate with
these aspects uppermost.
2656 Thank you for your consideration.
Director of the School of Music
University of British Columbia."
2657 I would also like to add that there is deep appreciation for this
proposal throughout the School of Music.
2658 MS VOGEL: Excuse me. We are at 20 minutes. Would you be able to move to
your conclusion, please.
2659 NEW SPEAKER: Could I ask just one thing? We got a little bit more time
yesterday for a concert. It did go to 23 yesterday.
2660 THE CHAIRPERSON: What we try to do here is be fair to all applicants.
What we do is let most if not every applicant know in 20 minutes, and I think it
is just a signal to wrap up, if it is going to be one minute, or two
2661 MS ROBERTSON: That is probably we have.
2662 THE CHAIRPERSON: And there certainly should be ample opportunity during
the questions for anything else you want to add, to make sure that you have a
chance to do that.
2663 MS ROBERTSON: We have two people who we have asked to present, and they
would each be about a minute and a half. Is that acceptable?
2664 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's fine.
2665 MS ROBERTSON: Eli Gershkovitch, Principal of Steamworks Brewing
2666 MR. GERSHKOVITCH: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
2667 I am Eli Gershkovitch, and I am the founder of Steamworks Brewing
Company. I am its president.
2668 I am here today to speak from the perspective of a sponsor. While my
remarks are anecdotal, I would submit they are also representative of other high
2669 Steamworks is a combination of micro brewery and pub restaurant. It
produces and sells premium beers to a market that is, on average, better
educated and is more refined in its taste.
2670 Steamworks also has a long association with the arts. It has sponsored
numerous book launches --
2671 We have also frequently hosted Weekend Jazz, and have annually partaken
in the DuMaurier Jazz Festival. And we have helped sponsor Garrison
Keeler -- when the production was broadcast live from Vancouver.
2672 As a relatively small company, we have to be very targeted with our
promotional dollars. At the same time, we don't want to just buy advertising
time in the conventional sense. We would like to be a sponsor in the classic
sense of the word, where our goods and services are identified directly with the
radio production they help underwrite.
2673 If you apply these criteria to the radio market in Vancouver, none of
the current commercial stations suit our needs nor, I would add, would any of
the other applications which you have heard from today. The stations either
offer an audience that is too broad and over inclusive, to the extent that to
advertise with them is not cost effective. We simply cannot afford to use a
shotgun approach to advertising.
2674 Other stations, though they might be more affordable, are unable to
offer the qualified listeners in sufficient numbers to make advertising
2675 The Classic 94.5 application would, in my opinion, deliver a qualified
audience, a targeted audience, on a cost effective basis. I see a niche audience
suited to high end products and services, such as the type that we offer, and
other premium retailers offer.
2676 Secondly, the type of programming being proposed by Classic 94.5 is the
type that we can get more actively involved in sponsoring on a long term basis,
instead of in just 30 second increments.
2677 We want to take our involvement in the community to the next level, and
this Application would allow us to be a sponsor, not just an advertiser.
2678 I feel that the programming format that is being proposed is the one
that will appeal to many of our customers. It is simply not something that is
currently being offered on a commercial basis in Vancouver.
2679 In summary, if this Application is approved, we, and I suspect many
other businesses serving the premium end of the market, would not just support
it with advertising dollars but would also support the station in its mandate,
to make Vancouver a more livable and a more lively place to live and work.
2680 Thank you.
2681 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are over 25 minutes. I think there will be ample
opportunity during questions for anything else you want to add.
2682 MS ROBERTSON: Then we thank you for the opportunity to present our
Application, and we welcome your questions.
2683 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
2684 Commissioner Demers.
2685 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
2686 Good afternoon, Madam Robertson, and members of the panel.
2687 With my down-to-earth questions, I think, Madam Robertson, you have an
enthusiastic panel that will give more panache to the answers than to the
2688 I will start with questions that concerns audience, advertising
marketing, and you may want to field any of these questions to your
2689 My first question concerns the audience. In your Application, you have
underlined the success of the Toronto station and the Montreal station, and
today you have added more to that. Let's say that I would pose my first question
in relation to CFMX in Toronto, and it concerns the audience.
2690 This station, three-quarters of the audience, of the listeners of this
station are people 54 or more. Let's relate that to your business plan.
2691 Has your business plan taken into account the likelihood that you will
have to sell advertisers on a more focused older listener base?
2692 MS ROBERTSON: Our target audience is 35-plus, and we certainly feel it
will be at the higher end of that.
2693 David, perhaps you would like to comment on that.
2694 MR. OAKES: The CFMX in Toronto are, I believe, the no. 3 station in
50-plus. That is their major demo. They don't sell so much demo as they do the
stature of their audience, which is considered to be upscale in terms of income,
education, et cetera. That is pretty well their major impetus with the
advertisers. The advertisers usually don't come to them and -- I'll give
you an example of a Mercedez-Benz. They would not come to CFMS saying, "You have
a heavy concentration of people 50-plus; we are going to buy them". They would
come to them and say, "We want the upscale audience".
2695 So they are less concerned with the age, and much more concerned with
the income and social status. I think social status is where you live, what type
of job you have, that type of thing. They are more concerned with that than they
2696 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: So in preparing your projections of advertising
revenue, for example, in what way are you different than they are in their
2697 MR. OAKES: Quite similar. Very similar. In fact, I taken a lot of the
audience figures from CFMX and Radio Classique in Montreal to a less extent,
because it is split English and French. In Montreal, you have that unusual
dichotomy of if you are a French station with English listeners, the English
advertisers won't advertise. If they do advertise, they will never pay for
English listeners. Same thing with an English station in Montreal that has
French listeners. Where they are perfectly bilingual and can understand English,
the advertisers won't have --
2698 In many ways, we have looked at the Toronto model rather than the
Montreal model. I think the Montreal model is fine to look at overall share of
hours tune, but I don't believe they do as well in revenue as CFMX in Toronto.
So the Toronto model is, I think for us and for Vancouver, a much more realistic
model for this area.
2699 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you. I will get back to Vancouver.
2700 Spring 2000 audience data for the Vancouver radio market indicate that
CBC classical music FM service has made significant gains in audience share,
rising from 7th to 5th in the market, as an overall share of listening.
2701 In light of the fact that you chose not to conduct a demand study that
might have helped determine the extent to which there is a demand for classical
music beyond that provided by CBC, would you expect CBU FM's latest success to
impact negatively upon your audience projections? It is a long question.
2702 MR. OAKES: I believe the CBC numbers are basically a tip of the iceberg
with classical music. I think what you have heard from the panel is that this is
quite a vibrant market for classical music. There are functions, performances,
et cetera, and listening to what the Conductor of the Vancouver Symphony
Orchestra said about the attendance, that is staggering. So we believe that
there is quite a large classical market here.
2703 I believe that since the CBC National Service only allows for one hour a
week broadcasting from Vancouver, that there is a lot of misplaced demand here.
Also, we are talking about classical music listeners, and the National Service
has strayed quite a bit, in fact. It has become a very diverse service, and not
necessarily classical music.
2704 So I really believe that those CBC numbers are the tip of the iceberg,
and there is quite a substantial group underneath that. I think we have been
very conservative in our audience estimates of this.
2705 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.
2706 If we extend your projection of audience share are based, at least in
the written application, if your projection of audience share were based
primarily on the experience of the Toronto classical music, that is the
understanding I have, and your audience projection would see you equalling CFMX
Toronto audience shares levels of approximately 4 and 5 -- I believe Madam
Robertson referred to that -- by year 4, and surpassing that level in
subsequent years. And that is a level that CFMX took many years to reach.
2707 The question is, do you think your audience projection, and thus the
advertising revenue projections, which are based upon an advertising dollar for
share point methodology, might be perhaps somewhat optimistic?
2708 MR. OAKES: I don't think so. In fact, I think there is a good reason why
CFMX did not do so well for so many years. They did not put any promotional
dollars into the market. They did not do a lot of partnerships. It has taken
them a while to get rolling.
2709 I have interviewed the sales people at length, and they know there is an
excellent classical music audience in Toronto, but they felt frustrated from a
sales standpoint. Their numbers have not risen so much, and they identified it
as, they just have not put the promotional dollars in the market to do it. Now
they are, and it is somewhat a chicken-and-egg situation with them, because they
felt that initially when they got the operation up and running in Toronto, they
really did not have the dollars to do it. Now that they have become successful,
they have the marketing dollars to add to that.
2710 I think it would be a little different here. I think this station for
sure would be more proactive. There would be way more partnership arrangements,
and reaching out to the community, to the classical music infrastructure. So I
think we would be ahead of them, and we certainly have learned very much by the
mistakes they have made at CFMX.
2711 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.
2712 Now I would turn to the Canadian Talent Development. I will start with
my written questions, that may be completed by what Madam Robertson said.
2713 While you have not provided any specific budget breakdown for the
proposed CTD initiative to show, for example, the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra
and the School of Music Students from UBC, without such specifics, the
Commission cannot be assured that all the money that is allocated will qualify
as direct costs to CTD.
2714 Could you draw, from your experience, an outline of how you might
allocate the $50,000 minimum annual commitment, as well as provide us with a
general budget breakdown.
2715 MS ROBERTSON: Robert Sunter will answer this question.
2716 MR. SUNTER: The $50,000 was spent primarily hiring musicians to put on
2717 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: If I relate that $50,000 to the remarks by Madam
Robertson, there is no change in your application in that sense?
2718 MR. SUNTER: Not in terms of the $50,000. What we have done is provide
information on all the other areas which we feel may not fall within the current
designation of talent development of the CRTC. We think we are in a unique
situation from the Pop music stations.
2719 What we see this station being is an integral part of the community. We
see a kind of symbiosis between the performing organizations and the schools of
music and the station. We will be working very closely together. We will be
training technicians in our studios' remote pickups. We will be doing training
of hosts, we will be training musicians to be hosts. We will also be providing
opportunities through the partnerships and some of the other entrepreneurial
sort of things. We will get into that with advertisers to even multiply that by
hiring artists for those events as well.
2720 Of course one thing we can do without our airtime is provide an enormous
amount of promotion for arts events in the city. All of these things can be
costed. We actually have costings for all of those.
2721 The amount we are talking about is three to four minutes an hour of
promotion, which would be stand-alone promos, and also threaded through the
programming. We will say, here is Prokofy's Classical Symphony, which you will
be able to hear at the Vancouver Symphony's concert next Saturday and Monday.
That kind of thing will go on right through the schedule, so there will be a
real tie with the community.
2722 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.
2723 MS ROBERTSON: To go back to your question, are you asking about direct
talent development, which we have indicated at the top of our pyramid, the
$50,000 only, or are you asking about all of the indirect talent development
that I also referred to?
2724 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: The aim of my question was really to find out if
what we were talking about, which was in the Application, was a minimum of
$50,000, and that what you have added or what you have commented and outlined in
your presentation was something, as you said in the conclusion, which is
indirect talent development.
2725 I wanted to make sure that I would understand whether or not there was a
change in your --
2726 MR. SUNTER: The $50,000 of course would grow in proportion with the
revenue at the station. We would commit to that.
2727 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: But your commitment is to $50,000.
2728 MR. SUNTER: In the first year.
2729 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.
2730 In programming, let's say that I start by acknowledging the experience
of Mr. Blackwood and Mr. Sunter as key components of the station's
2731 We note from the Application, however, that there would appear to be
only two programming on-air hosts and a staff announcer projected for full-time
paid staff positions.
2732 Could you elaborate on how you will provide a high standard professional
24-hour daily classical music service with few people?
2733 MR. SUNTER: We will be hiring a lot of part-time hosts, frequently
prominent members of the musical community. That is part of our responsibility,
training those people to be effective hosts.
2734 MR. BLACKWOOD: Commissioner, I kind of feel like a munchkin following
the giants after the last few days, in terms of our financial resources.
2735 We recognize the fact that in the first year, we are going to be doing
some things which are going to be inexpensive by comparison with the normal
standard of those large stations that have huge resources to plough in in your
first year, but it is in fact not necessarily -- it is the same thing in
talent development, it is not necessarily to say the number of people who define
2736 What we have done is to do what a lot of stations have not done, that is
to say, we have given you an indication that we will be putting considerable
resources in terms of salaries into attracting first class broadcasters for
those high audience periods, which is morning, afternoon and drive-home, that
are the essence of attracting revenue when you first get started. That is very
2737 We admit that in some of the off hours, that is, the evenings and some
of the week-end, that in fact we will be voice tracking, we will have to, and
that we will be repeating programs that may already have been heard in other
time periods in Year 1.
2738 What we were careful to do is not to over-promise. We did not want to
over-promise in Talent Development in terms of direct dollars, and we did not
want to over-promise in terms of what we would deliver in programming in the
first year in terms of dollars, because to do that is unrealistic, and I think
you would be taking an entirely different point of view, as you should, if we
were to claim how much we would be doing on the basis of our first year
2739 However, I would also point out that one of the things that we have,
both in terms of Talent Development, which does not really show up, and part of
the answer to your question, and the reason we put the schedule up, there is a
large block there that is called Partnership Programming.
2740 In a lot of places, there are a lot of people in this city -- a lot
of people in this city -- who are experts and very entertaining
broadcasters in music, and in the whole range of music, but particularly in the
classical field and in the jazz field. Part of that partnership programming is
attracting those people to do programs for which we will not be paying high
salaries. In fact, we may not be paying salaries at all. We may in fact be
inviting them to participate in particular programming which they want to
present, and which their organizations will support, or which their personal
tastes will define.
2741 We have one behind us. For years I listened in delight to Bramwell
Tovey, out of Manitoba. Let us assume, for example, that we could form a
partnership with the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra, for a weekly -- or even
daily, who knows -- program that was featuring not only this conductor, but
other people who are connected with the orchestra and who are not only
entertaining on radio, but have a high and I think unchallenged knowledge of
2742 You don't need a lot of high priced on-air people to get high quality
programming, providing that we follow through on what we are promising, which is
that we will be providing that daily schedule core to begin with, which will be
high -- very high quality, under the definition of on-air terms, host and
excellent music, largely CD.
2743 The second part of it, though, the partnerships and the sponsorship
programs, present us with an opportunity to do some splendid on-air things for
not very much money, and do some really good talent development at the same
2744 I know that is a long answer, but the difficulty is we have no Canadian
or Vancouver exact model that we can point to and say, that's the way we have to
do it. We are going to be sorting this out as we go along.
2745 We have had so many proposals in the last six months, from so many
people, as to what they would like to do, which doesn't cost us very much,
except in terms of seed money, which is where that $50,000 comes in.
2746 I think there are alternatives to just buying high priced on-air talent,
and we have to find some -- I think we know some of them.
2747 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.
2748 Could you follow on that point and describe in what way you would
produce, or broadcast, for example, the coverage of news and weather, sports,
reports, in what way this will be in operation, in what way will you put that
2749 MR. BLACKWOOD: We are discussing our little bulletins there.
2750 I think it is very important to say that we are not anticipating a major
expenditure in news, sports, weather, or traffic. What we will provide is what
we used to call service and survival information. If I may use an anecdote.
2751 The former chairman of the CRTC, Harry Boyle, once said that you could
always tell, when he was growing up in Saskatchewan in the middle of winter, you
could always tell a CBC listener, because when you went past the school, their
children would be out hovering in the freezing cold, because no one had told
them the schools were closed. It took the CBC a very long time to overcome that;
perhaps they have a little too much information now.
2752 As Harry called it, that was the days when in fact it was not accepted
that every station had to tell you at least what you needed to know to get
2753 We do not propose to give people news. That is not the purpose of this
station. I think somebody said yesterday, and they were right, we have CKNW
here, we have Rogers all news, we have CBC 1. So, what that really means is that
we are going to tell you what you need to know in order to get going in the
morning, and if the Lions Gate bridge is closed, you better know, but we are not
going to tell you that on the Westminster Highway, out in Surrey, that in fact
you can't get past block this, to this, to this. That is not part of what we are
2754 However, we are committing to a very significant amount of information
about the arts in the city. That is our news. Our news is going to be ongoing
information about what is happening in the whole arts community. Perhaps it
might be useful, since she did not get a chance, if Lori Baxter talked a little
bit about what the Alliance does now, because we already have a partnership
agreement with the Alliance, whereby we are going to help, in the first year, to
upgrade this service, and she can talk a bit about that.
2755 Then, after that, we are going to share with the Alliance what is
already a good hotline service, but we are going to go beyond that and give them
daily, and ensure that daily our audience is informed of what they need to know
2756 I started with the Harry Boyle story only because that is the way we are
with the arts now. It is very difficult in this city, and if you look at the
amount of information that flows every day in Toronto and Montreal compared with
what we have here, we don't have a very active press. We don't have a lot of
support for informing people here about what is this incredible panorama of arts
and music. We don't have that from a print press. We don't have it from any
other radio stations.
2757 We used to get a lot more of it from CBC too, but the fact is that the
budget cuts have largely dried it all up.
2758 Part of your answer is that our most important information service is
going to be arts information.
2759 MS BAXTER: If I may take a moment.
2760 That is one of the reasons why the Alliance for Arts and Culture is
extremely excited about this station, not just from the broadcast bullets about
events information and the connecting with their programming and local arts and
cultural events, although that is quite exciting, but we are also very
interested in the arts and culture sector and the news about the arts and
culture sector being given more than an entertainment blip on this station, that
we will be news items, that we will be able to have exposure and discussion on
arts' cultural policy issues, on arts as a business, on arts and culture as
educator, on public art installations, that these things will be talked about
and will find a home on the classic station.
2761 That is one of the areas that we will be partnering in terms of trying
to make sure that that dialogue and that discussion and that information is
provided to the audience.
2762 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: And you already have an undertaking -- you
have an agreement between --
2763 MR. BLACKWOOD: Yes.
2764 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.
2765 It may be opportune at this time to ask you to describe what you said
you would be. You said that Classic 94.5 would be a commercial community classic
music station. Maybe you could expand on that, and relate it to your
2766 MR. SUNTER: We have already touched on some of the aspects of that.
2767 We will have very close relationships with all of the major and a lot of
the minor arts organizations in the city. We will, as Robert mentioned, have
contracts with organizations like the Vancouver Symphony, where we would provide
a weekly opportunity for them to do a program, and we do maintain control over
the quality of these programs, in which Bramwell Tovey could do a preview of the
concerts that are coming up in the next couple of weeks, play extracts from CDs
on what works were going to be there.
2768 We could do the same thing for the opera, for the Music in the Morning
Society, for the Vancouver Recital Society. The list goes on and on and on.
Those people have already been in touch with us, saying, if you get the licence,
we have to talk about this, and this, and this.
2769 There is an incredible energy out there in that arts community, and they
see us as the lighting rod for it. And I think we can pull fulfil that
2770 MR. BLACKWOOD: Just to follow along with that, I think it is very
important that we reiterate in terms of what we do on a day-by-day basis, going
back to what I said earlier.
2771 From morning to the end of the drive home period, that it is going to be
a service that is going to feature very popular, but excellent, classical music,
with the kind of information that we have indicated. The evenings, however, and
large portions of the weekend, we are going to do what Robert is talking
2772 I would like to raise one other thing that Eli alluded to. He raised the
question of sponsored programming, and there isn't very much left in radio that
is called sponsored programming that is in commercial radio, although we must
remember that in the United States, the Texaco Opera is on commercial stations
as opposed to public stations, as it is here. In fact, the CRTC is the agency
that allowed the CBC to break its own non-commercial rule in order to maintain
the Texaco broadcast.
2773 I think what Eli is alluding to, and I have heard many many approaches,
we all have, about the potential, if we were to get this licence, from others,
is the idea of the sponsored program. Let's give you an example.
2774 If there is live music being performed at Steamworks, and there is, Eli
has given you an example of the book launches he sponsored, of the Garrison
Keeler Show, which actually I produced here as the Canadian producer of it, in
each case it was Eli who phoned and said, "What can I do to help? What I can do
in order to help make this event successful?", and he invested funds, real
funds, in making those things happen.
2775 Now what I think he is proposing, and he is not alone, is that there are
other people there who are saying, it actually makes more sense for us to take
an hour or an hour and a half a week, or perhaps on a week night, if it is live
event, and actually have it sponsored by us. We present it. This is more
effective than putting spot commercials through --
2776 With the kind of people we have in this city who are burning to do some
of this, we are not talking about a great deal of expense on the part of the
station, but the station must provide the impetus for people to take these kinds
of things on. In the case of those kinds of programs, those sponsored shows,
there is a real opportunity that exists nowhere else, and which certainly can't
exist in any format that demands that you set in advance the number of
commercial breaks per hour.
2777 MR. OAKES: If I could add to that, from interviewing the people at CFMX
in Toronto. They were wonderful to share information.
2778 Close to 50 per cent of their revenues comes from sponsorships rather
than traditional advertising.
2779 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Yes?
2780 MR. TOVEY: Commissioner, thank you.
2781 You mentioned just now sportscasts, when you were asking a question
about news and information. If I might just point out that the art of classical
music, whether or not it is orchestral, romantic, baroque, whatever era,
whatever kind of format it is, that such music is stimulating to the human mind.
Sports information talks about the competitive world of professional sports,
where people compete at a high level of physical excellence. Here, we are
dealing with something that is a high level of mental excellence, when achieved
as a listener or as a performer. I feel this is an essential philosophical
difference that needs to be pointed out, and that it is terribly important in
2782 The kind of information that the station is talking about presenting to
the people of Vancouver on this particular wavelength is actually not being
pursued by CBC at the moment. We call it a musical knowledge. We call it a kind
of musical appreciation, but an informality of approach that is terribly
important for the continuation of classical music audiences, be they orchestral,
operatic, chorale, even for children's concerts, whatever kind of format we are
2783 Live acoustical performance needs to have that extra element of
understanding, the kind of understanding that the station is talking about
presenting to the people of Vancouver, I feel, cannot be got even on CBC most
days of the week. And it is a very inspiring concept.
2784 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.
2785 I have a question on Canadian content. I will try not to read all that I
2786 In essence, Classical 94.5 has not proposed any level that exceeds the
minimum regulatory requirement of 10 per cent. You have not indicated any
proposed increase. It is in relation to the Commission's commercial radio
clause. Is that enough, or should I --
2787 MR. SILVERMAN: I think I understand exactly the question.
2788 The problem used to be, with classical music, and this certainly was
true when I was Head of Music for the CBC, that there was not enough recorded
material to really generate the kind of Canadian content that we should have
2789 My response to that was to start the CBC FM 5000 series, which is now a
huge collection of CDs. This is stimulating recording projects all over the
country, smaller ones. So that now there is quite a body of Canadian
2790 In addition to that, we have gone through 20 years of extraordinary
development of Canadian soloists and Canadian conductors, and smaller ensembles.
So we don't think we have --
2791 Our first choice, if we are going to play a Beethoven symphony, the
first thing we will look for is which Canadian orchestra has recorded this, and
that would be our record of choice. Same thing with --
2792 We will be so Canadian, our listeners may get sick of it after a while.
We are not like the private stations. We are not driven by big names. There are
only 20 big names in classical music in the world that people can be guarantee
to turn out for.
2793 We heard a performance last night of Jane Coop playing the Beethoven
Fourth Piano Overture. I don't think there is anybody in the world who could
play it better. She is a Canadian. She is living right here in Vancouver. We
have records of her already. Actually, it is somebody who will be on our program
2794 We are passionate about this, as a matter of fact. This is not something
that we will have to be regulated for. We are Canadian -- we are Vancouver,
and we are going to play Canadian artists and Canadian interpreters, and
2795 So you can set any figure you like. If it is humanly achievable, we will
2796 MR. BLACKWOOD: If I could just add to what Robert said.
2797 Here is an example of where I think we can do something. Let's take Jane
Coop. Everything he says about Jane Coop is correct -- would it not be?,
and I love her -- but it is very difficult in Vancouver to find out who she
is, the fact that she is performing, where she has been. I have been sitting
here for all these hours listening to the fact that we don't know our jazz
players. Well, in many cases they are right, but here we have a world class
2798 If we were to get this licence, here is what would happen.
2799 First, we would be promoting it, not with paid promotion, not
paid - that is part of our service, to tell people, on our arts billboards,
that Jane Coop is coming next week, that she will be at the Orpheum, that she
will be playing with whomever she is playing with, or soloist. Then, we would
start playing Jane Coop. It would be part of the regular programs.
2800 We are not talking about a rotation that is set a month and a half, or
two months, or six months ahead of time, and which you simply rotate
2801 You can, in fact, program yourselves with a rotation that is not based
on numbers of plays, but based on the context within the schedule. So our
individual host, and we may only have three fairly high paid ones to begin with,
those hosts can then talk about Jane Coop. They can play her CDs, and they can
talk about the fact that she is coming.
2802 Then, there is the perfect opportunity in the weekend schedule to talk
to Jane Coop, to actually ask her where she has been, how she feels about
things, but she is local. If you listen to Radio Two, on the very few
opportunities a year you will ever get a chance to hear Jane Coop even talk for
10 minutes, she talks about Canada. That is the mandate of Radio Two, and I
don't think any of us object to that. But she doesn't talk very much about where
she lives, what she does here, how she rehearses here, where she goes and what
she thinks about when she is abroad or she is elsewhere in North America,
talking about Vancouver, and her commitment to stay here, and the commitment of
her husband, George, who also runs our Summer Festival. He is exactly the
2803 The opportunity to hear these people is exceedingly rare in this market
and yet, unlike jazz -- and I am a huge supporter personally of jazz, but
unlike jazz, we are talking about world class talents who already are
established. We don't have to put Talent Development Programs in place to get
them there, and we have virtually no way in this city of ever finding out what
any of them do.
2804 MR. BLACKWOOD: I would simply add to that, Mr. Commissioner, that I
don't think you should read in any way that the proposal to head in the
direction of Canadian programming is any kind of cultural nationalism. It is
simply a rejection of a cultural imperialism that might come down to us through
the world of New York agents and London agents, such as we sometimes see in some
of the American independent radio stations.
2805 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you.
2806 Now I will turn to the frequencies. I will add with that, and my
colleagues may have questions for you, and I am sure I have seen many of you on
the room since Monday.
2807 As you know, other applicants wish to use that frequency of 94.5 in
Vancouver. One of these applicants is CBC, which proposes to use it, as we know,
for la Chaîne culturelle.
2808 You have not proposed any alternative frequencies that might be suitable
for your application, so my first question is: Have you, or your engineering
consultants, conducted studies to find alternative FM frequencies that could
possibly be used in Vancouver for your application?
2809 MR. SUNTER: I was actually approached informally by a CBC executive a
few months ago, who suggested it might be more profitable for us to look for an
2810 I know the engineering costs that go into determining an acceptable drop
in frequency, and I said: For heaven sake, you got the money -- you do it.
If you want to put the Chaîne culturelle on here, you can find a frequency. We
don't have the money to do that.
2811 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you. It's your show -- it's your
2812 You indicated, in your letter dated 27 July, that CBC French mono
transmitters, CBUF FM, could be moved to one of the available AM frequencies in
Vancouver, so that la chaîne culturelle could use its FM frequency, 97.7. Could
you elaborate on the AM frequencies when you refer to that?
2813 MR. SUNTER: Actually, since we sent that letter, I have done further
investigation and I find the real impediment to moving the French service to AM
is that the corporation would be forced to buy a huge tract of land, which is
enormously expensive in this part of the country, to put up an AM transmitter
and tower. That is the impediment.
2814 I don't think it is possible for them to think of that. I think a drop
in frequency is much more logical.
2815 MR. BLACKWOOD: Could I just add that since we sent you that letter, I
heard in detail on Monday morning la Chaîne's position with respect to the
comparison between Radio One and Radio Two in English, and the main network, and
la Chaîne culturelle in French, and that there was philosophical difference
between Radio One and the general service of the French service. That, we did
not take into account when we wrote our position.
2816 The only thing I would add, having listened to it for a very long time
in this city, is that certainly during the high audience daytime programming
available, they are very similar, in the sense that they do have a morning
program that is very similar to the English one -- they have an afternoon
program. They are local, and they are informational.
2817 I can understand why they want to make sure that they have the widest
possible distribution for that information service, because that is where their
local presence in Vancouver goes. In fact, when we wrote the letter it was our
impression that they would have a wider distribution for that on an AM signal
that went some distance than an FM signal, which was more restrained. So, we
might revise that.
2818 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you. We get to the meat here.
2819 Could you elaborate, and that is in your opinion, why 94.5 should be
granted to you rather than the CBC or to any other applicant at this
2820 MR. SUNTER: We have already incorporated ourselves as 94.5 FM!
--- Laughter / Rires
2821 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: And reason number 2?
2822 MR. SUNTER: If we were offered an alternative frequency then, like all
the others, we would say, yes, sir.
2823 It would be the preferred frequency.
2824 MR. BLACKWOOD: It is very difficult when asked that question, because it
implies that we don't want anyone else to get a frequency.
2825 The difficulty we have had, and I think the Chair mentioned this
yesterday several times, is that there is a question as to whether this market
is underserved in terms of the size of the market versus the number of stations
that are available.
2826 Given that, I think it is also imperative to say that there is an
argument to be made for a frequency for a station of the kind that we are
proposing, given the very strong and clearly identifiable cultural life of this
place, which has very little outward reflection in any media --
2827 If we were in Toronto, if you watch Bravo! constantly, the number of
items, the number of interviews, the number of clips, the number of uses of that
little studio -- an excellent, wonderful little studio they built --
it is there for you all the time. Try finding Vancouver on Bravo!, except for
little snippets here and there. And I am not saying that that is not true of
other places in Canada, but we are the second largest English Canadian centre,
and we have no way of expressing that in any significant way to our own people,
to let our own people know what is happening here, in a music industry that is
thriving, and which is very large in terms of total audiences, and which will,
and I think that is one of the answers to your CBC 2 question, which will try to
find what it can in order to know what it is about here.
2828 But, it is also important to say that given the limitations, the arts
and the music we are talking about, and that includes jazz, are also faced with
a funding problem, which is going to become more acute. We are seeing the
diminution of public funding on a massive scale. We could take any number of
institutions and say what was their public funding 10 years ago and what is it
now -- it is a fraction, a small fraction.
2829 What that implies is that there is a necessity for all these
institutions to replace that funding, and that funding has to come from the
private sector, and we are proposing to be a private commercial station. The
opportunities for partnership, as we watch the public diminution, right across
the board, in all kinds of areas, I think is significant.
2830 We cannot promise in the first year, we cannot possibly promise what the
giants are promising. Some of the things I have heard -- I mean, I love it,
but it is very limited, what they have promised to support, and it is in one
area. What we are trying to do is say that the entire arts deserve that kind of
support. But how do we get a loyal audience that really listens to you all day
and whom you can entertain? It is still the fact that regardless of where we go
in North America, and now even in Britain with Classic FM, that it is the
popular classical music format, offering excellence, that still can attract the
kind of audience whom we are trying to integrate into the whole arts and
entertainment community of Vancouver, where they have nowhere to go now. Try
2831 I know that one member of the panel lives here, but it can be a shock to
you, if you come from Montreal or Toronto, or even Winnipeg, to experience just
how little opportunity there is for all that expression to be found on our
airwaves or in our print press. My plea.
2832 Now, that does not attack anybody else, what it says.
2833 MR. SUNTER: If I could just add to that.
2834 One of the things that we have noticed when we have done intensive
listening to Classic FM, in England, for example, is the demographic there is
not the demographic we have been talking about here. It is not over 45. They
have an incredible number of listeners on the air who are clearly very young,
and many of them are mothers with children, who find that they are basically
locked at home. We can also provide a service to those people as well, because
they find that a classical station is enormously comforting to them. It is
something that gives them a better frame of mind that constant Pop music.
2835 MR. BLACKWOOD And we have a very low average age of the four people
behind us, all of whom are in support of us.
2836 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: A final, very short, question.
2837 Would you be willing to use an AM frequency?
2838 MR. SUNTER: AM is really not suitable for classical music. You lose, I
would say, 40 per cent of it.
2839 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you, Madam Robertson and panel.
2840 Back to you, Madam Chairperson.
2841 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Demers.
2842 I believe the panel has questions.
2843 Commissioner Cardozo.
2844 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair.
2845 Just to continue along one of the questions that Commissioner Demers
asked you about other frequencies, a question you sidestepped, as to whether you
2846 If 94.5 was not to be granted to you, would you rather another
frequency, or would you rather not have a licence?
2847 MS ROBERTSON: We would of course take a very careful look if we were
offered another frequency. Our concern of course would be the reach that would
be available, and the cost that we would have to incur in order to test the
2848 But, yes, we certainly would look very carefully if we were offered
another frequency besides 94.5. We would of course have to change our name too,
but that is not a concern --
--- Laughter / Rires
2849 MR. SUNTER: Could I point out, Commissioner Cardozo, that we already
have an arrangement in place with the CBC to use their tower on Mount Seymour to
distribute our signal. I am not sure whether 88.1 could work from there, so we
would be looking for another transmission tower somewhere else.
2850 MR. OAKES: To put it in perspective, if you look at the size of the
audience for classical music station, it would be below the average size of a
Vancouver station. If you look at the revenues of a classical music station,
they would be below the revenues of an average station.
2851 So if you would give us a signal that would cover half the city, we
could be in some sort of trouble. So we would really have to take a close look
at what the coverage would be of that signal.
2852 I don't know what the technical limitations are of these other signals,
but if they are severe, it would be a difficult choice.
2853 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me add one more ingredient.
2854 If 94.5 were granted to La Chaîne culturelle, and you were to get
another frequency, would that further erode your business case?
2855 MR. OAKES: Look at another frequency? You mean other than, say,
2856 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: No. Other than 94.5.
2857 If 94.5 were to be granted to la Chaîne culturelle, which means that
they would be this new classical station coming into the market plus you, and
you would be on this frequency with possibly less coverage --
2858 MR. OAKES: I don't know if I am the one to answer that.
2859 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you know what my question is?
2860 MR. SUNTER: Yes.
2861 MR. BLACKWOOD: I think your question is, if la Chaîne came in -- it
is really a two-part question. If la Chaîne came in, it would be an additional
classical musical outlet in the market, and at the same time our coverage area
might be reduced, and therefore would we really rethink our business plan or
would it have a significant impact.
2862 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.
2863 MR. BLACKWOOD: I think the answer to that is twofold. I think the answer
to the reduced area is that it possibly could. Because we don't know what that
reduced area would be, it's hard to answer.
2864 If we still had a major signal that was effective in the large downtown
and immediate suburban area, it might now.
2865 Insofar as a competitor, the honest answer to that is I don't believe in
this market la Chaîne would have any effect whatever on what we are proposing. I
think it is conceivable that it could have a minimal, a very minimal effect on
CBC 2, but it is going to -- it will in fact offer no alternative
programming for a local community oriented Vancouver station. It is another
national service which is even less reflective of Vancouver than the existing
2866 So I would wish it well, and in fact I would like to personally hear it
here, but I don't think it will have any impact whatever on what we are
2867 MR. OAKES: Certainly not -- if they broadcast in French, they are
going to have a heck of a time selling to English advertisers --
2868 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: No, it wouldn't be for them, but I am wondering if
this is this other station in the market which takes up a certain amount of
listenership, whether that would affect your listenership.
2869 MR.OAKES: I think I can just basically reinforce what Robert said. From
Robert's standpoint, I don't believe it would be that big a competitor.
2870 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: This is my last question.
2871 From what you have heard of the application of la Chaîne culturelle and
what you know of it, are you offering anything for those listeners? You are not
going to be providing French Spoken Word?
2872 MR. BLACKWOOD: You mean would we have bilingual programming?
2873 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you, in any way, respond to the needs of those
2874 MR. BLACKWOOD: I think we do.
2875 One of the difficulties of la Chaîne, and both of us spent some time on
the music side, and I in fact was director of radio for the CBC in Quebec for
six years, la Chaîne and the CBC have always had an agreement whereby they trade
programming that is done one city to the other, which is why virtually
everything you hear on Radio Two was originally paid for and recorded by la
2876 Equally, what you hear on la Chaîne was originally broadcast and
recorded by Radio Two, so that in fact the Vancouver content of la Chaîne is a
repeat. Virtually all of it is a repeat of what you have already heard on Radio
2877 If what you are saying is, from a francophone point of view, would we be
offering the kind of specialized talent in the French language that la Chaîne
does? No, we would not. But if what you are asking is, will they hear the same
kind of music? Then certainly in some of our periods -- the mid afternoons,
the week ends -- yes, you would hear the same kind of thing.
2878 In fact, if you listen to la Chaîne, they do -- their recordings
very much reflect the same standards of excellence that we would bring to our
periods where we are playing international music.
2879 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I have one more last question.
2880 Any of the music you play, would that be reflected on the Smooth Jazz
kind of proposal that we have heard?
2881 MR. SUNTER: Over my dead body!
2882 MR. BLACKWOOD: Commissioner, I have to say that the -- I have been
to many CRTC hearings, and I was deeply impressed with your questioning earlier
today in an attempt to grasp what it is that Smooth Jazz may be.
2883 The answer is, no, not on the basis of what we have heard today. But,
yes, if you are talking about some of the proposals that were made yesterday, in
what they called Traditional Jazz, and I am not sure in the end what Traditional
Jazz was, but I will give it the benefit of the doubt, because one example I
heard was Duke Ellington, that, yes, you would hear that on this station. That
is Classic Jazz. That does have a place, and in fact it is arguable in some
cases whether or not it genuinely fits a jazz or classical context.
2884 What I would say in answer to a previous question, that the other thing
we would more likely hear is that if we had the opportunity to play Duke
Ellington, for example, we would be more likely to give people a chance to hear
the less known recordings that he made at the Stratford Festival than we would
at Fargo, North Dakota.
2885 And to the degree that the others who are proposing a traditional part
of their Smooth Jazz format, then, yes, we would be offering the same thing as
they might be.
2886 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So I take it your colleague wants to take back his
2887 MR. SUNTER: No, no.
2888 I believe in Jazz.
2889 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I'm just kidding!
--- Laughter / Rires
2890 MR. SUNTER: Bramwell came up with a very good definition of jazz at
lunch. He said: Jazz is not notated music; it is creative, it is ex
2891 Judged by that criterion, this stuff being called jazz under the soft
adjective, is not really jazz.
2892 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: It seems Mr. Tovey wanted to add something.
2893 MR. TOVEY: Yes. If I might just offer a professional opinion on this
matter, much in the way lawyers would have, if they were involved.
2894 Jazz is an improvised art from a musical cell. Sometimes that musical
cell can be a song, sometimes it can be the germ of an idea, but it is an
2895 What is being called Smooth and Soft Jazz here is essentially a
contrivance that has brought about, through manipulation and recording studio, a
high degree of notated music. In other words, it is completely different.
2896 To adopt the generic term "jazz" and to put the appendage "smooth" or
"soft" on the front is to contrive a musical form that does not exist and is not
in any one of the 20 volumes of the New Grove Dictionary published last
2897 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: On that note, I will thank you.
--- Laughter / Rires
2898 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cram.
2899 COMMISSIONER CRAM: When I first came to the CRTC, I couldn't understand
how we could be counting interstitials, which are these little, little things
that are a few seconds as Cancon. The sad fact of it is, we are a commercial
regulator. We are regulating commerce, which are public airwaves. So we need
2900 I was listening initially to you, Ms Robertson, talking about the 5 per
cent increase on what you call CTD, every year. I then heard subsequently some
time somebody saying that this 5 per cent increase could be more than a 5 per
cent increase. So I have two questions.
2901 Is this, what you call your CTD, is it contingent upon your revenue
projections? And, no. 2, and I am a lawyer, would it grow proportionately more
if your revenue grew proportionately more?
2902 MS ROBERTSON: The $50,000 is an absolute minimum that we have committed
to for seven years. However, we have tied the Talent Development to a formula,
as you point out. So it is tied to revenues entirely. And we commit to keep
that. If revenues exceed that, which we would be delighted, of course, if they
did, we will up the Talent Development Fund.
2903 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I'm sorry?
2904 MS ROBERTSON: If revenues did exceed our projections, we would increase
the Talent Development Fund, but we will increase the Talent Development Fund
according to our projected revenue increases.
2905 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The problem I see in something like that is the
difficulty in us enforcing it, us looking at it, because I might disagree with
the way you manage your shop, and say you should be making more profits.
2906 Have you got a solution for us that would not involve any contingency on
either excess or revenue projections or non-revenue projections?
2907 MS ROBERTSON: It is not tied to profits, it is tied to gross revenues.
So it is simply our gross revenue number --
2908 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Let's just say you're selling wrong. The problem is,
it is so contingent on -- and we don't do that. We don't get into how you
manage something, so once we give you a licence, you're free to win or lose
money. But do you have an alternative that we could look at?
2909 MS ROBERTSON: We could certainly work on an alternative. We thought that
that was a relatively simple way of ensuring that we tied Talent Development to
the growth of the operation. We could certainly look at something else and
submit that, if you wish.
2910 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
2911 At page 4 and 6 of your presentation, the Talent Development commitment
and the whole concept of -- the difference between you and Radio Two, the
impression I get is a huge "we will not share music or other programming
libraries, we will not embrace national syndicated formats, we don't see any
value in contributing to FACTOR, as they won't produce music that would be
presented on our station".
2912 You are talking about investment in careers of local Vancouver
performing artists. You are talking about this station being a local classical
2913 The only thing I see in your schedule that talks about Vancouver is
young performers. So what I am looking at is, is that the only program in your
schedule that is going to be in concrete Vancouver performers?
2914 MS ROBERTSON: Mr. Blackwood has developed the broadcast schedule, so
perhaps he should answer that.
2915 MR. BLACKWOOD: This goes back to perhaps what I did not make clear
before. Where we see partnership programming, it is all Vancouver, every bit of
it. It is all in partnership, with Vancouver either arts and culture
institutions or whatever.
2916 We did not actually get a chance to talk about this much, perhaps
because Mr. Reid, Jesse Reid, was not here. This is a draft schedule, and that's
there because, for example, there are a vast number of tapes of excellent
performances -- we hope that if we got licence, there would be many more of
them -- of young performers connected to the University of British Columbia
Music School, and more.
2917 So that is an obvious area where the performance would be Vancouver, but
virtually all of the partnership, including -- not only music, as Lori
mentioned. There may be other areas there which could address some of the other
arts. And they would be entirely Vancouver. And the information that you are
getting throughout the day is Vancouver.
2918 The example I gave of Jane Coop, who would be played in those daily
programs on an ongoing basis but particularly when she was going to be here,
would be Vancouver along with the information service which we have talked about
with respect to the partnership with the Alliance would be entirely Vancouver.
That would be within every single hour you will hear about what is happening,
either from the host or from a structured arts bulletin which is worked out in
partnership with the Alliance.
2919 I suppose the great performances is the least Vancouver part, which is
the Saturday night, because we can't guarantee, certainly not in year one, that
we could ever afford to mount the kind of program that that time period
represents, because we are looking at major music events.
2920 I would point out, simply because we do want to make clear that we are
not trying to take on Radio Two, that on Saturday evening on Radio Two there is
no classical music whatsoever.
2921 As for the evenings, that whole period that we have identified in the
evening period would, I presume, right at this point be entirely based on a
Vancouver sound, a Vancouver choice, and there are plenty of opportunities for
Vancouver people to talk on it.
2922 But, you know, what if --
2923 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Can you give me a number of hours per week?
2924 MR. BLACKWOOD: Of what?
2925 COMMISSIONER CRAM: A number of hours from Vancouver per week. My concern
here is that we are a regulator and people get a licence, and I believe you. I
believe everybody who comes in front of me that they are going to do what they
are going to do.
2926 But you have also heard that if we grant you a licence, that licence
will be worth 40 million dollars, and it could easily go to somebody else, or
you could change your programming.
2927 So I am asking, and I apologize -- I am a lawyer, and I am a
regulator -- can you give me some precision in the number of hours of
programming per week, that will come directly from Vancouver, that will reflect
what you say your station will be?
2928 MR. BLACKWOOD: One hundred, which is I think what we said. Or perhaps we
didn't say in our Application. It is 100 per cent from Vancouver --
2929 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So all of it will originate from Vancouver?
2930 MR. BLACKWOOD: Absolutely.
2931 COMMISSIONER CRAM: No, no, no.
2932 What I want to know is, Vancouver musicians, because that was what I was
referring to, your focus on Vancouver -- investment in the careers of local
Vancouver performing artists, the fact that you were going to be a local
classical station, and that is what makes you different from CBC, that is why
you believe you should exist, because CBC is not serving it.
2933 What I need to know is, how different will you be? If you just have the
same kind of programming CBC does, I have a problem. And I come back to, I am a
regulator, I need specificity.
2934 In the program that you have developed already, how many hours per week
are Vancouver, British Columbia, artists? How many hours per week will the
listener here in Vancouver hear?
2935 MR. BLACKWOOD: That would then include -- I just want to make clear
that you are talking only about the music, and not the information part at all.
You don't want to hear about any of the information part.
2936 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I want both, but I want the number of hours per
2937 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So, the number of hours per week would be the total
number of hours that we would broadcast purely -- purely -- Vancouver
musicians, including CDs?
2938 THE CHAIRPERSON: This is actually one of my questions.
2939 What I was going to say, to follow up on what Commissioner Cram is
saying, is that when we are valuating competing applications for this frequency,
and particularly when all of you are private commercial stations,
notwithstanding the nature in which you have described the programming on your
station as being community oriented, classical, and all that, we need to have,
in order to evaluate the competing proposals, what are you Canadian content
2940 For instance, when you talk about it being a showcase for Vancouver
artists and yet you are committing to a minimum of 10 per cent Canadian content,
that is what goes on the licence.
2941 If you understand, the information, through a competitive process, that
goes on a licence, should you be successful. So, you could turn around and sell
a licence with a Category 3, theoretically. So this is why we need the kind of
"A commitments, and this is why when, notwithstanding that the jazz proposals
that you are hearing may not be one person's personal preference, and listeners
are an important thing and bringing diversity to the market is important,
critical for us are Canadian content levels, because this is how Canadian
artists get airplay, and this is why we are so concerned about the amount of
Canadian content private broadcasters commit to play.
2942 We are also with public broadcasters and community broadcasters, but
your proposal is for a private station, it is a private commercial licence. So
this is why I think we are wanting to --
2943 MS ROBERTSON: I think I understand what you are getting at. Perhaps,
rather than us sitting and -- we had not looked at it in those terms so
perhaps rather than us sitting here and scribbling out the numbers right now,
perhaps we could take it under advisement and file that information with you
2944 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are going to take a short break, why don't we say
ten minutes, and we will be with you.
2945 MR. BLACKWOOD: Can I ask one question?
2946 THE CHAIRPERSON: Not of me. Probably of counsel.
2947 MR. BLACKWOOD: The reason I want to ask the question, there has always
been a problem with a classic station in terms of how we measure Cancon. In
other words, if we were to do an hour from UBC of student content --
2948 THE CHAIRPERSON: Let's take break. I am not sure how far along all this
road we want to go. It was really a matter of clarifying for us what
2949 MR. RHÉAUME: I can answer this, when we come back.
--- Upon recessing at 1730 / Suspension à 1730
--- Upon resuming at 1740 / Reprise à 1740
2950 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cram will continue.
2951 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
2952 I want to come back to the CTD, the $50,000 a year.
2953 I think I heard, I forget who said it, that the $50,000 would go to
musicians, and it would be paid to them for performances that would then be
aired. Is that correct?
2954 MR. SUNTER: That is correct.
2955 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And that the costs of production would be borne by
Classic 94.5, or is that in the $50,000?
2956 MR. SUNTER: The recording costs were not in.
2957 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So any of the ancillary cost is simply to pay the
artist, him or herself, or the group?
2958 MR. SUNTER: Right.
2959 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Secondly, Mr. Blackwood, you constantly talked about
the giants that are here, excluding yourself.
2960 Is there anybody on your team that would have the broadcasting business
experience to deal with the giants in this market?
2961 MS ROBERTSON: Perhaps I should answer that.
2962 We obviously have Mr. Blackwood and Mr. Sunter, who have worked in radio
for a number of years. Mr. Sunter ran CBC Radio in British Columbia for a number
of years, so they have experience in running radio stations.
2963 We have budgeted to hire a radio station manager, a senior manager, and
we have also budgeted to hire a senior advertising sales manager as well,
recognizing that we need people with commercial radio backgrounds as well.
2964 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
2965 Thank you, Madam Chair.
2966 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cram.
2967 Commissioner Pennefather.
2968 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chair.
2969 Just a clarification on one or two elements of your proposal.
2970 In reading through your approach and looking at the schedule here, there
is a combination of recordings and, as I understand, live performances.
2971 The live performances, would I be correct in saying that they would turn
up in the partnership specialty programs component of the schedule and, if so,
would that mean that those live performances are dependent on sponsorship?
2972 MR. SUNTER: Yes.
2973 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So your budget currently would not cover the
costs of that component of the schedule?
2974 MR. SUNTER: No. Only the production costs. But if you look above the New
Performers, they will all be live, at least mostly live. That will be through
the arrangements that we have with the Faculty of Music at the University of
British Columbia, and with the Academy of Music, those of whom have offered to
work with us in putting those student recitals, student orchestras and opera
productions on the air.
2975 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I was trying to relate the budget you have,
the proposed expenses, to the intention of the programming here, and where the
money is going to come from basically in terms of particularly the live
2976 I understand that is a key component, not only of the concept itself but
also of the presentation related to that chart, which is the lower part of the
triangle. If I see "On Air Exposure, West Coast Performances" and look over
here, it ends up in that Partnership/Sponsorship box.
2977 MR. SUNTER: The on-air exposure of west coast performances, that is in
the section there of new performance, four hours a week.
2978 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And that would be also sponsorship
2979 MR. SUNTER: APS, yes but it may even be advertiser supported, or it may
not be supported at all.
2980 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Do you have any current agreements for
sponsorship of a performance component?
2981 MR. SUNTER: No. It would be difficult to, because you create an event
based on the sponsorship proposal -- maybe not create an event, but
identify an event in which you both can cooperate.
2982 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So the partnerships outlined on page 5 of
today's presentation, which is $400,000 a year benefit, the only one lined up is
the Alliance for Arts and Culture component that you described earlier?
2983 MR. SUNTER: Yes, but we do have a concrete arrangement with the
Alliance, but since it represents 270 different arts organizations, there is no
end to the possibility it could happen if we came into existence.
2984 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you.
2985 Thank you, Madam Chair.
2986 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Pennefather.
2987 I just have a couple of questions.
2988 One clarification I would like to make is, we talked about some
frequency issues earlier and the possibility of available AM frequencies.
2989 There was some discussion, but I was not clear on whether or not you
have identified AM frequencies --
2990 MR. SUNTER: AM?
2991 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. You had indicated, I believe, on your July 27
letter, that you had identified available AM frequencies.
2992 MR. SUNTER: There was one. I talked to the Department of Transport and
they told me there was one AM frequency that was available.
2993 THE CHAIRPERSON: And do you have any studies or letters or --
2994 MR. SUNTER: No.
2995 THE CHAIRPERSON: They did not give you any details on this AM frequency,
they just --
2996 MR. SUNTER: No. They laughed and said, "Oh, it's years since anybody
asked us about AM".
2997 THE CHAIRPERSON: But they did indicate that there was one available, but
you did not ask them what it was or get any more information. Your technical
people did not --
2998 MR. SUNTER: Our technical person was totally focused on the arrangements
with CBC, the transmission tower and listing the equipment we would need and
doing the parameters of the transmitter.
2999 Were you going to ask me questions about the Canadian Talent level?
3000 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
3001 MR. SUNTER: Thirty-five per cent.
3002 THE CHAIRPERSON: Canadian Content?
3003 MR. SUNTER: Yes.
3004 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do I take it, then, that you are changing your
Application? Is that it?
3005 MR. SUNTER: Yes indeed.
3006 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you want to make --
3007 MR. SUNTER: This goes back to my CBC days. We were confused about would
an hour long symphony be the same as a three minute lead by Dietrich, Fisher,
Diskeau, and the answer is yes. Each of them is a cut. So, looked at that way,
we have no trouble meeting 35 per cent.
3008 If you were talking time, the availability of Canadian recordings would
make 35 per cent rather difficult.
3009 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you are changing your commitment from 10 to 35.
3010 My question was also, then, even within the 35 and your desire to give
airplay to a lot of Vancouver artists, how much of that would be --
3011 MR. SUNTER: We calculated 10 hours a week.
3012 THE CHAIRPERSON: Why don't we deal with 35 per cent and talk about the
Canadian content. How much would that be Vancouver artists?
3013 MR. SUNTER: This is very difficult for us, because it is not like a Pop
music format. When we are talking about a concerto, or we are talking about a
short piece by Chopin, so -- it is a hard figure to come up with.
3014 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. That's fine.
3015 The only thing I was going to say in our desire to discuss a lot of
these things is that it is a competitive process, and there are a number of
things that we have to consider in doing this, of course -- there is
listeners, diversity, and local programming is important. But there is no
question that a key element for us is that we give airplay to Canadian artists,
because that is in fact how they are going to succeed, in whatever their genre,
whether it is Classical, Pop, Jazz, whatever.
3016 MR. TOVEY: If I might, Commissioner, just address for one moment the AM
frequency question that you just talked about.
3017 AM is a mono wavelength. Obviously the live acoustical experience of
listening to music that is produced without mechanical means of reproduction is
a stereo effect when you hear it live. Therefore, this makes FM the only
reasonable way to experience classical music. The equivalent would be like going
to see an art gallery perhaps exhibiting Picasso's blue period with a pair of
3018 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand, and actually my question with respect to
the availability of AM frequency was not necessarily with you but just in terms
of you identified there was a possibility for La Première chaîne, and we wanted
to know if in fact there was a specific frequency that you had identified.
3019 I think that it is for me.
3020 Legal? No questions?
3021 Thank you very much. We will be back at nine o'clock tomorrow
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1755, to resume
on Wednesday, November 22, 2000, at 0900 /
L'audience est ajournée à 1755, pour reprendre
le mercredi 22 novembre 2000, à 0900