ARCHIVÉ -  Transcription - Calgary, AB - 2000/11/01

Transcripts
 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.
 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Transcription
 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.
 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Calgary, Alberta / Calgary (Alberta)

--- Upon resuming on Wednesday, November 1, 2000

at 0900 / L'audience reprend le mercredi 1^er

novembre 2000 à 0900

2935 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to day three of the Calgary public hearing.

2936 Today, our work plan will include beginning with the hearing of the Golden West application.

2937 Once we are completed with that, we will move into the intervention stage and see how far we go today with that. There are a few interventions but it may go quicker than we anticipate.

2938 So, Mr. Secretary...?

2939 MR. BURNSIDE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

2940 We will begin with an application by Golden West Broadcasting Ltd. for a broadcasting licence to carry on an English-language FM radio programming undertaking at High River/Okotoks on the frequency 88.1, with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts.

2941 The applicant is proposing a non-specialty eclectic music format.

2942 You may proceed when you are ready.

APPLICATION / APPLICATION

2943 MR. HILDEBRAND: Thank you, Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission.

2944 My name is Elmer Hildebrand, President and CEO of Golden West Broadcasting.

2945 With me today are Lyndon Friesen, Vice-President of our company, Keith Leask, Station Manager of our AM station in Higher River/Okotoks and Doug Allen of D.E.M. Allen & Associates.

2946 We have no videos, we have no charts and no horoscopes.

--- Laughter / Rires

2947 MR. HILDEBRAND: First of all, a little history about Golden West may be useful to Members of the Commission.

2948 Our company has made a living serving non-metro markets across the prairies. We started in 1957, with a small AM station in Altona, Manitoba. Altona is still the site of our head office, and the community has seen steady growth since 1957 and, today, Altona has a population of 3500 people.

2949 From the austere beginnings in 1957, our organization has continued to grow, always by serving non-metro markets.

2950 Today, we operate AM radio stations in Altona, Steinbach and Winkler/Morden, Boissevain and Portage la Prairie, in Manitoba, plus AM stations in Estevan, Weyburn, Moose Jaw, Swift Current, Shaunavon, Rosetown and Kindersley in Saskatchewan, plus one station in Alberta, that being CHRB in High River/Okotoks.

2951 Eighteen months ago, I met with the entire Commission on an informal basis, in Ottawa, to talk about Golden West's long-range plans. I stated, at that time, that we saw considerable life left in our AM facilities across the prairies; however, for long-term viability, we would need to establish FM stations at all of our locations.

2952 The reason is very simple. As you heard during the last few days, young people are attracted to FM, and if we do not establish our own FM stations, over time, our audience will obviously disappear.

2953 As a result, we started out an aggressive plan to launch FM sister stations at all of our locations. We applied for an FM licence in Steinbach and Winkler/Morden in Manitoba, Moose Jaw and Estevan in Saskatchewan and are now applying for an FM licence to complement our AM station in High River/Okotoks.

2954 This new FM station will serve not only High River/Okotoks but also Strathmore, Nanton, Claresholm, Stavely, Diamond Valley, Vulcan, Longview, Airdrie and dozens of other rural communities in southern Alberta.

2955 When the call came for a new FM station to be licensed in Calgary, we indicated to the Commission that we wanted to apply not for a station in Calgary but for a small FM station to serve non-metro of southern Alberta.

2956 It is, therefore, important to note that we do not have any objection to the other applicants who are vying for a frequency in Calgary.

2957 We understand that one of them will be licensed on the one competing frequency and we do not see our application competing with any of them.

2958 Lyndon...?

2959 MR. FRIESEN: Our reason for applying for an FM licence in High River/Okotoks is very simple. We have been serving the area with our AM signal since 1978 and have worked hard to provide a solid community service, as well as upgrading our technical facilities, during the past 22 years.

2960 The market is not big enough to support a freestanding FM station; however, we already have studio facilities and an infrastructure in place, so we would be able to operate this station at relatively small incremental costs. We do not need to purchase any land or buildings.

2961 We see the need for this FM licence to maintain our long-term viability in the area. Since more and more people, especially young people, are listening to FM, we need to provide this service or else our audience will ultimately gradually disappear.

2962 The area we propose to serve already gets many FM signals and with a licensing of at least one of the applicants for 98.5, there will be even more service out of Calgary.

2963 The FM stations, however, concentrate on serving the City of Calgary; they generally do not provide real service to the rural areas.

2964 Since our hallmark is community service radio, we feel it is of the utmost importance to be able to provide this service both on the AM and FM band.

2965 MR. HILDEBRAND: In 1978, we applied to the Commission for our AM station, CHRB. All of the big Calgary stations opposed our application on the basis that we really wanted to be a Calgary radio station based in High River. They were wrong, at that time, and in the years from the 1978 to now, CHRB never has been, nor wanted to be, a Calgary radio station. We do not solicit advertising in Calgary.

2966 We have followed through on our original commitment to serve the communities in southern Alberta. We have done this through good times and less good times. We are in all of the markets that we serve for the long haul and know the needs of the areas we serve. We now want to do the same on the FM band.

2967 A good example of how we operate is recent developments in Steinbach, Manitoba. Steinbach is about the same distance from Winnipeg as High River/Okotoks is from Calgary. We have operated an AM station in Steinbach since 1963, and three years ago we applied for an FM licence to complement this existing AM station. You approved our application and we have now just completed two years of service on this FM station.

2968 We have been relatively successful with this new FM and we have continued, at the same time, to grow our AM revenue and we have not looked for any Winnipeg advertisers. So we know that the process works.

2969 As the Commission knows from our other markets in the prairies, we are working hard to have AM-FM combos in all of our particular markets. This, we feel, will allow us to provide broader service to a greater audience, thus, ensuring real service to the non-metro market and, at the same time, guaranteeing our company's long-term growth and viability.

2970 While cities like Calgary are growing at a great clip, it is important to understand that western Canada has many people living in rural non-metro areas. People living outside Calgary deserve an FM service just like their city cousins have. If we cannot supply this FM service, the rural people have no choice but to get their FM service from the big city. While they get good, listenable signals from Calgary, they cannot get good local service. The only time the Calgary stations pay attention to communities like ours is if there is a big fire, a big accident or a scandal. That is why it is important to let us provide this service to the rural area and let the and let the Calgary stations serve Calgary.

2971 To sum up, I repeat, we have been making our living serving areas that were not as profitable, or were not seen as profitable for many broadcasters. We have done this with a considerable amount of success. However, as I indicated earlier, over time, we expect the FM stations will capture most of the radio listening.

2972 So, if we want to continue our growth and success in the future, we must have FM stations in all of the service areas. Local advertisers use our stations because they want to reach a rural audience. In the long run, we will not be able to provide this with just AM signals. This is particularly true in southern Alberta. Local advertisers will not stick with us indefinitely without the addition of an FM signal.

2973 In the last few days, the Commission has asked all applicants if they had explored alternate available FM frequencies. Well -- and this is the last part of your attachment there -- I'm happy to say we did some homework in this area.

2974 With me today is Doug Allen of D.E.M. Allen & Associates, one of Canada's leading technical consultants. He will tell you what is really available.

2975 Doug...?

2976 MR. ALLEN: Thank you, Elmer.

2977 We have indeed done a great deal of work on the matter of available frequencies in Calgary.

2978 In addition to 98.5 and 88.1, the two frequencies on the table at this time, there is 103.1, which is a former CKO-FM frequency. Since this frequency has already been used and proved before, this surely could be used again.

2979 There are, in my opinion, two additional frequencies that could be used in the Calgary/Okotoks/High River area.

2980 MR. HILDEBRAND: Thank you, Doug.

2981 As you see, if the Commission was to licence one or two or even three Calgary applicants, we are confident that we can find a suitable frequency for High River/Okotoks. We are indeed hopeful that you will approve our application to help us serve our region for years to come.

2982 We do not have any argument with any of the other applicants, as I have said, nor do we have an argument with Gary Farmer and his application. We see that there is room for certainly both of us and one or two more. So we would be very pleased if you would consider our application and prove it, and at this time we would be happy to answer any questions.

2983 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Hildebrand, for your presentation.

2984 This morning, Commissioner Noël will lead the questioning of your application.

2985 Commissioner Noël.

2986 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Bonjour, Monsieur Hildebrand, and welcome to this last stretch of Phase I of this public hearing.

2987 Before I start asking specific questions on your application I would like to stress the fact that we Commissioners all have different styles as do the petitioners in front of us.

2988 Mine is rather direct, therefore, my questions will be short and I will use plain language devoid of any rhetoric. If you feel I do not make the necessary nuances, please feel free to let me know.

2989 My questions will revolve around the following points:

2990 First, the site of your transmitter and the area covered by your three millivolt per metre contour.

2991 Second, what kind of market research you have done to define your format.

2992 Third, your audience projections.

2993 Fourth, your advertising revenue projections.

2994 Five, your expense projections.

2995 Six, your source of advertising revenues.

2996 Seven, your local programming.

2997 Eight, your Canadian talent development.

2998 And, nine, technical parameters.

2999 Now, let me just try to find on this very small map those little cities that you have mentioned that will be covered by the frequency that you are looking at.

3000 Give me two seconds to find them on the map.

3001 MR. HILDEBRAND: Most of them would be south of Calgary. Airdrie is north of Calgary.

3002 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Okay. This is so small I can hardly read them.

3003 Okay. I see Nanton. So this would be in your five millimetre contour, Nanton.

3004 So you are looking at serving people that would be actually south of your three millivolt per metre contour.

3005 MR. HILDEBRAND: Certainly, we would be looking to serve people south as far as Claresholm.

3006 COMMISSIONER NOËL: You might not see much on that, but if I look at the map, the three millivolt per metre contour is here.

3007 MR. HILDEBRAND: Right.

3008 COMMISSIONER NOËL: And High River is right -- it intersects with the --

3009 MR. HILDEBRAND: We would serve people well south of that.

3010 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Well south of that.

3011 MR. HILDEBRAND: Yes.

3012 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Okay.

3013 Given that your station will occupy the transmitter site formerly occupied by CFXL Calgary. Could you tell us again why you have applied for a High River/Okotoks station and not the Calgary station?

3014 MR. HILDEBRAND: Well, basically, because we already have an AM in the High River/Okotoks area and we have developed a business and an audience throughout southern Alberta over the last 22 years. We really want to serve the same people, the same areas, with an FM and --

3015 COMMISSIONER NOËL: And is the transmitter site at the same place as your actual AM station transmitter?

3016 MR. HILDEBRAND: Yes. The reason we have chosen that particular site is because we have an AM site there and one of the reasons that this whole FM process works for us, if we an establish the FM frequency without adding purchases of land, purchases of buildings, then it makes some sense. If we had to buy facilities, then it wouldn't make any sense.

3017 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Okay. So it's the same transmitter site.

3018 MR. HILDEBRAND: That's right. Same site, same studios.

3019 COMMISSIONER NOËL: What percentage of audience to your proposed High River station do you expect would come from the Calgary central market, the CMA, the Calgary CMA?

3020 MR. HILDEBRAND: We don't really look for any audience in the Calgary CMA. As you heard in the last few days with the applicants for the Calgary frequency, they used a lot of stations and showed the audiences of the different stations. I noticed that CHRB was always not there, so we are obviously not in their headlights at all. CHRB doesn't have a significant audience in Calgary nor do we anticipate the FM one because that is not the service area that we are looking for.

3021 COMMISSIONER NOËL: But if we look at the contour --

3022 MR. HILDEBRAND: The signal is available --

3023 COMMISSIONER NOËL: -- it's peculiar.

3024 MR. HILDEBRAND: Let me point out that our current AM radio station has a signal that goes almost up to Edmonton, so the signal is huge. We can use that for some national agricultural advertising, but that doesn't come out of Calgary.

3025 COMMISSIONER NOËL: It's not listened to in Calgary.

3026 MR. HILDEBRAND: It's not Calgary-based, no.

3027 COMMISSIONER NOËL: And you want to do the same thing with this FM station.

3028 MR. HILDEBRAND: We want to do the same thing. Right.

3029 COMMISSIONER NOËL: When we gave you the possibility to change your transmitter and increase your power in your AM station, you made a commitment not to solicit any advertising in Calgary. Would you be ready to make the same commitment for your FM station?

3030 MR. HILDEBRAND: Yes.

3031 COMMISSIONER NOËL: As a condition of licence?

3032 MR. HILDEBRAND: Surely.

3033 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.

3034 If we go to format, you have proposed an eclectic format. I have heard of everything since we have started this hearing, but "eclectic" to me is a bit mysterious, could you tell us more about what "eclectic" means and what kind of a mix you propose to have --

3035 MR. HILDEBRAND: Well, the FM station that we propose would obviously have a music format, because that is the audience that we want to try to serve.

3036 But as I pointed out in my original application, the kind of audience of the kind of musical participation that we would use in our format would range all the way from Elton John to Anne Murray to Faith Hill and Gordon Lightfoot, Rita McNeil, Ian Tyson, Blue Rodeo, Amy Grant, Bette Midler, Céline Dion, Roch Voisine.

3037 So it is a very broad format of music. It is not pigeonholed into any particular format like you heard for the last few days.

3038 COMMISSIONER NOËL: A mix of everything.

3039 MR. HILDEBRAND: It's a mix. The program is designed to appeal to a broad cross-section of people and our hope and desire is to gain some FM audience in the young people so that in the future we will have a reason to be there. We have found that this particular process works quite well.

3040 I referred to the Steinbach FM radio station that we launched in Manitoba a couple of years ago. Earlier this month we launched a new FM in southern Manitoba at Winkler/Morden, again, with the same kind of eclectic format and we find that there is an audience waiting for that and we find that we can make a business on that. That particular format combined with what we do on the AM, the AM is more agricultural and country-oriented, provides a good balance for a combo, so we see that as working.

3041 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Did you do any market study for that or is that the result of your own experience?

3042 MR. HILDEBRAND: I'm sorry, we did not spend any money on market research. As I keep saying, we have been in this market for 22 years. We know the audience that we serve. We know the people i the area. We have found that when we do this kind of thing in small markets, there isn't enough money to spend huge amounts of money on research and consultants, so we use our own good judgment that we have learned over the years and we found so far it hasn't let us down.

3043 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Do you think that the people of High River are really looking for that or is the eclectic format more associated with a larger urban area?

3044 MR. HILDEBRAND: We think that there is a market for what we are proposing to do.

3045 As I said earlier, the significant or specific formats that you have heard about for the last few days, they are all available there for people that want to do that, or that want to listen to that. But, generally, when we provide a format like this, along with the local news and information, that is really what makes the radio station work.

3046 The music by itself isn't enough to make a business or to retain the audience. It's the local news that makes the difference. Our company has, over the years, spent more money in news and information than a lot of other things, because we feel that is the only thing that makes us different from other radio stations. So we see that the market is there, we are comfortable with the relatively small audience that we will have, and that relatively small audience translates to a relatively small revenue base that we are projecting.

3047 COMMISSIONER NOËL: If we go to your optimum projection, at the present time your AM station in High River has a 1 per cent share in the BBM area, area 8070, which includes High River, but your estimates in your applications are for a 45 per cent tuning share in the High River market by year seven.

3048 Do you think those figures are a bit optimistic?

3049 MR. HILDEBRAND: Looking seven years ahead is very difficult for us, and I think we are using some of our experience in other markets to see where the process leads us. Certainly, in some of the other markets where we have done this we see constant growth year to year, and it is reasonable to assume that in five or six years we could be there. But we have no way of guaranteeing that. We will only guarantee our future by providing solid service.

3050 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Your projections.

3051 MR. HILDEBRAND: Yes.

3052 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Now if we go to your advertising revenue projections, let me go to Schedule 18 of your application.

3053 On Schedule 18 you say to the question of how you arrive at your revenue projections:

"These are projections we have determined to be realistic by comparing what we do in other markets of similar size. As you will realize, in non-metro markets revenue is developed in a totally different manner than in major markets. Since we have been serving small markets for over 40 years, we have reasonable experience in estimating revenue." (As read)

3054 Given that you did not undertake to make any market research prior to developing your business plan, could you explain exactly how you developed those advertising revenue figures?

3055 MR. HILDEBRAND: Yes.

3056 COMMISSIONER NOËL: There is not much of an explanation in your schedule.

3057 MR. HILDEBRAND: That's right. But we had given you revenue projections in an earlier section of the application and subsequently the question comes: How do you arrive at that. Our arrival at these numbers are not scientific.

3058 Again, as you have heard in the last few years -- or last few days here, it may seem like years, but it's just two days -- the applicants would tell you that they expected to get a 5 or 10 or 17 per cent share of the audience. That translates to so many dollars because the market has "X" number of dollars in it.

3059 In our kind of markets there are no formulas like that. We develop the business one client at a time. It is developed by relationship selling and there are no real formulas.

3060 So our projections are really based on what we have been able to achieve in other similar markets where we have already been doing this. We have smaller markets than this where we have been able to develop this kind of revenue base and we see the same thing happening here. So we are using many of our projections based on what we have already experienced in other markets.

3061 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Have you contacted any advertiser to see what their interest would be in --

3062 MR. HILDEBRAND: Well, in broad strokes when we talk to advertisers, should they show some interest, but as we have found in previous lifespans in this business, advertisers can tell you they have interest, but until you are on-the-air there is no contract. Until we deliver the goods you can't really sell anything. So I keep saying that our projections are based on past history in other markets that are similar.

3063 Generally we have actually been able to then over-achieve our estimates.

3064 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Then let's go to your expense projections. They seem rather low when you compare them with the other applicants.

3065 You have mentioned that your FM would be co-located with your AM station and you would have the same transmitter site.

3066 Could you explain if there is anything else that would justify the very low cost of your FM proposed station?

3067 MR. HILDEBRAND: Certainly we keep saying -- and I think it bears repeating -- we should not be compared with the other applicants that you have heard here in the last few days, because they are looking to gain a large chunk of the business in Calgary.

3068 We are not looking for that, so we are looking for a small chunk of business in southern Alberta and that will be developed, broadly speaking, with our own people that we now have we will add some program people, some news people and some sales people. That is all we will add, so we don't need to spend a lot of money. We aren't spending money on research, we are not going to spend huge amounts of money on promotion, we are not giving away a lot of money for Canadian talent development in our --

3069 COMMISSIONER NOËL: We will come to that.

--- Laughter / Rires

3070 MR. HILDEBRAND: But it is a small number, it doesn't need a truck to bring it in, like we have heard the last few days, so we can --

--- Laughter / Rires

3071 MR. HILDEBRAND: We can do it in a little envelope.

--- Laughter / Rires

3072 MR. HILDEBRAND: So the whole point of our application is that if we had to have an expense base along the lines that you have heard here, we wouldn't be applying because there isn't that kind of business. So our business plan is based on developing this much revenue and spending less. That way we think we have a future.

3073 COMMISSIONER NOËL: At the present time --

3074 MR. HILDEBRAND: I know it's not very scientific, but we have found out that it actually works.

3075 COMMISSIONER NOËL: That it works.

3076 MR. HILDEBRAND: Yes.

3077 COMMISSIONER NOËL: At the present time there is no FM station at High River --

3078 MR. HILDEBRAND: No.

3079 COMMISSIONER NOËL: -- therefore the people who want to listen to an FM-type station with music and material, they tune to a Calgary station?

3080 MR. HILDEBRAND: All the FM tuning is to Calgary, for sure.

3081 COMMISSIONER NOËL: All the FM tuning is to Calgary.

3082 MR. HILDEBRAND: So our plan, then, is to repatriate the local audience from some of the Calgary stations, so we will hopefully pick up a few listeners from each of them, not enough that they will notice but enough that will --

3083 COMMISSIONER NOËL: That is what I wanted to ask you.

3084 MR. HILDEBRAND: -- but enough that will --

3085 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Who will be the victims?

3086 MR. HILDEBRAND: I think they may all lose a few listeners, but not very many. And with the kind of growth that we have seen in the area, we see that there will be enough listeners for us to have a little business.

3087 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Do you think that by repatriating some of the High River listeners to an FM station in High River you would go after some of the revenue or advertising dollars that are spent by High River local advertisers in Calgary stations?

3088 MR. HILDEBRAND: I would imagine that the advertisers in High River that use a Calgary radio station would continue to do that. We wouldn't be --

3089 COMMISSIONER NOËL: So you don't see --

3090 MR. HILDEBRAND: We wouldn't see --

3091 COMMISSIONER NOËL: You don't see any advertising dollars coming out of the Calgary market because of repatriation?

3092 MR. HILDEBRAND: No, no. We would be developing new dollars.

3093 The communities of High River/ Okotoks are both growing quite fast and we see them -- Okotoks is now at 10,000 people, High River is around 9,000 and both of them are continuing to grow relatively quickly. So we see that, with the other communities around the area, to be enough of a base for a small business.

3094 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Now, if we go to local programming, you have described previously your eclectic format, but could you tell us more about your news and information?

3095 You say in your application that the station will be targeted to south Alberta rural areas. Could you describe to us the type of spoken-word programs that will deliver the local content and distinguish your service from those of any Calgary licensed broadcasters?

3096 MR. HILDEBRAND: Well, our local news is the most important thing in our radio stations. We tend to use only news from the area, with some national news that would be applicable. But we concentrate our efforts on developing local news departments that provide service. We will also be providing regular agricultural updates to the agricultural community and we will provide all the other surveillance material of news, sports and weather and community events. So news is a very important part of our program cycle.

3097 COMMISSIONER NOËL: I didn't ask earlier, but how many new people -- you said news program and sales. How many heads does that encompass?

3098 MR. HILDEBRAND: All together we would see adding two people in our news department, two announcers and two sales people. So that would be a total of six people.

3099 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Six people.

3100 MR. HILDEBRAND: Yes.

3101 COMMISSIONER NOËL: And all locally recruited people?

3102 MR. HILDEBRAND: We have found over the years that when we recruit people locally they know something about the areas, so we have in our company developed our own training process and we find that local people provide the best long-term solution for us.

3103 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Now, if we go to the fact that High River is quite close, I understand, to Calgary, in previous decisions the Commission has sometimes asked for special conditions to guarantee that the news would remain local or the programming would remain local. For example, in Public Notice CRTC-93-123, the Commission stated that:

"Based on the licensing histories of these stations, the Commission wishes to retain the flexibility to review, in some detail, the manner in which these stations continue to provide service to the communities for which they are licensed should they wish to relocate their studios in the future." (As read)

3104 You already committed to a condition of license whereby you would not solicit advertising in the Calgary market, would you be ready to accept a condition of licence whereby your studio location should remain in High River?

3105 MR. HILDEBRAND: Surely.

3106 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.

3107 Now, Canadian talent development. Your proposal in -- and your letter in response to a deficiency letter in your response of July 19, you increased the expenditure level of Canadian development to $1,000 per year from the $400 which is the basic CAB plan, I understand.

3108 MR. HILDEBRAND: Yes.

3109 COMMISSIONER NOËL: How will that be spent? What are your plans for that?

3110 MR. HILDEBRAND: That money would be given to third party applicable organizations to develop local talent. We would try to make sure that helped talent in southern Alberta so that --

3111 COMMISSIONER NOËL: By giving air time, but --

3112 MR. HILDEBRAND: Well, first of all, we would give the cash to an organization that would do that.

3113 But one of the things that I think I should also say, that a fair number of musical selections and artists that you would hear on our radio stations will never be heard in Calgary simply because we like to feature local artists from our area and many of them would not be up to a level that would, at this point, warrant airplay in Calgary. Maybe one day they will get famous and then actually get there.

3114 But we try to promote the local talent in all of the areas that we operate by providing on-air exposure, promotion of their CDs and, in this case, we are also giving the contribution to an approved third party.

3115 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Okay. Now I have a couple of more questions. There is the frequency question.

3116 I guess you have given us some hints that there are other available frequencies. When you say that you are not --

3117 MR. HILDEBRAND: But we don't want this on an AM, just --

--- Laughter / Rires

3118 COMMISSIONER NOËL: I had decided to skip that question.

3119 MR. HILDEBRAND: Oh, good. Good.

--- Laughter / Rires

3120 COMMISSIONER NOËL: When you say that you are not competing with Gary Farmer's application -- where did I see that in your little -- at the end of your oral presentation. "So we are also not competing for 88.1" --

3121 MR. HILDEBRAND: 88.1, yes.

3122 COMMISSIONER NOËL: -- "for Gary Farmer's application".

3123 Do you mean to say that you are ready to look now for another frequency that would --

3124 MR. HILDEBRAND: Yes.

3125 COMMISSIONER NOËL: -- that would serve the area that you wish to serve?

3126 MR. HILDEBRAND: The same area.

3127 COMMISSIONER NOËL: And that may not necessarily have the same contour in reaching all the northern parts of the Calgary area?

3128 MR. HILDEBRAND: Well, it is our understanding that there are frequencies that would be suitable and so we would be quite prepared to do that.

3129 COMMISSIONER NOËL: At some point in time, I guess yesterday, I heard somebody say that you had applied on a different frequency before applying on this one.

3130 MR. HILDEBRAND: Yes, we did. And we would still be happy with that frequency.

3131 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Why did you --

3132 MR. HILDEBRAND: The reason we changed to this one is that Industry Canada didn't provide the clearance, I think, for the Commission staff and we were told to take another frequency so that we could appear here today.

3133 COMMISSIONER NOËL: But would that frequency, the one that you first applied on, be -- in your opinion, Mr. Allen, it would be a decent frequency? Why did Industry Canada not approve it?

3134 MR. ALLEN: Definitely, in my opinion. It is the one that was used by CKO for a number of years. It operated, period. So obviously it was the one to go after again, which we did.

3135 It wasn't Industry Canada who objected. It was my friend at NavCanada.

3136 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Your friends at NavCanada.

3137 MR. HILDEBRAND: Were we happy with that were you going to say?

3138 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Unfortunately, we have to live with your friend at Navcom because when we travel by plane we like to have some reassurance that we are going to land somewhere.

3139 MR. HILDEBRAND: But it has also been our experience that sometimes by working on it a little longer then these frequencies do become available, so we would be happy with that, yes.

3140 COMMISSIONER NOËL: You would be happy with that frequency?

3141 MR. HILDEBRAND: Yes.

3142 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Mr. Allen, you did say that there was at least two other frequencies. Do you have numbers for us?

3143 MR. ALLEN: Yes, I generally go by the numbers, but I will give you the frequencies. 89.7.

3144 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Yes.

3145 MR. ALLEN: And 106.1.

3146 COMMISSIONER NOËL: 106.1. Both FM.

3147 Now, Mr. Hildebrand, before I ask you the final question, when you say you don't solicit advertising in Calgary, in the Calgary market, do Calgary advertisers sell it to you?

3148 MR. HILDEBRAND: Again, in our business advertisers generally don't call us. We have to get the advertising by going to see them. So this doesn't happen.

3149 COMMISSIONER NOËL: It doesn't happen?

3150 MR. HILDEBRAND: No.

3151 COMMISSIONER NOËL: So you do not --

3152 MR. HILDEBRAND: We don't have any retail advertising from Calgary.

3153 COMMISSIONER NOËL: That's what I wanted to know and the last but not least question, tell us why, why your application should be granted and you already told us that you are agreeable to change frequencies, so just summarize your application.

3154 MR. HILDEBRAND: Surely. I will try to be brief. Why Golden West? Golden West has demonstrated its ability and creativity in serving non-metro markets, something we have been doing on the prairies for more than 40 years.

3155 As the Commission knows, I still feel that AM operations have some considerable life left, but in the long run we will need FM licences in all of the markets we serve to survive.

3156 It has been the Commission's practice, I believe, to approve FM applications like ours for non-metro, non-competitive markets and we ask you, therefore, to continue this process.

3157 The High River/Okotoks area should not be deprived of local FM service just because they happen to be located near a metro market.

3158 The High River/Okotoks area is projected to continue their dramatic population growth over the next decade. We want to be in a position to provide radio service to both young and old alike and in order to do this in a comprehensive manner we need an FM service to complement our current AM operation.

3159 The Commission knows we are not competing with other broadcasters at this hearing. From what we have heard the last two days, the Calgary applicants have some great plans to serve the listeners in Calgary. We did not, however, hear any plans to serve the people outside of Calgary.

3160 Since there are adequate frequencies available, you can approve a number of the applications before you today and yesterday and we suggest that you do so, but we humbly ask that our application also be approved.

3161 Yesterday there was talk about gorillas and while the 200, 300 and 800 pound gorillas arm wrestle for the biggest market share in Calgary, we maintain that the baby gorillas also need a place to stretch their legs. We hope you give us the opportunity to do so.

3162 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Merci beaucoup, Mr. Hildebrand.

3163 I forgot to ask if my colleagues had any questions. I will pass you to the Chair.

3164 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Noël.

3165 Before I turn it over to Commissioner Cram who does have a few questions, so you would have no problem with some of the licences from today and yesterday, but how about Monday's applicants?

3166 MR. HILDEBRAND: Monday's were fine too. I think they were all admirable and I am sure you will find something there that is just right for Calgary, but I don't think they are right for High River.

3167 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Hildebrand.

3168 Commissioner Cram.

3169 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

3170 Mr. Hildebrand, of course you know I am all for baby gorillas and local programming. I guess my concern and the concern that at least I will say for myself, my concern is clearly that we do want programming, local programming for people in the smaller centres. But what kind of safeguards can we put in that -- all life is terminal, I found out recently, and the sure event of your death or the death of Golden West and if this is sold, that it won't end up being a 900-pound gorilla in the Calgary market?

3171 How can we put safeguards in it so that after you are gone we can still preserve this local service?

3172 MR. HILDEBRAND: Obviously, we can't answer questions that project past when we are here, but I think one of --

3173 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I understand that, but maybe you might want to sell it.

3174 MR. HILDEBRAND: One of the things that I think the Commission needs to look at, our company operates in a variety of markets in other instances where we also are close to metro markets. In southern Manitoba, for example, we are close to Winnipeg with two or three radio stations, yet we are not providing Winnipeg service. That's not what we do.

3175 In Saskatchewan we cover Regina, but we don't provide Regina service. That's not what we do. There are Regina stations that do that, just as there are Winnipeg stations that do that.

3176 So I think our history is the assurance that you need that we do what we say we will do. Our track record I think speaks for itself. We want to do this kind of service. We want to do this kind of radio and who knows down the road we will all be digital and it will be everywhere. I don't know that. But I know what we do and what we like to do and what we can do. We have demonstrated very clearly that these are the kind of things we can do to the benefit of Canadians who don't live in metro markets.

3177 COMMISSIONER CRAM: On your eclectic format I wanted to ask the same as I believe I asked, and my age is showing, I forget who I asked, are there any lists from which you would not take songs in your eclectic format? You know, there is the Urban list, there is --

3178 MR. HILDEBRAND: I think there is a lot of lists and we are not big on music lists because our music is different. We will not use music that is off-colour or degrading to people in any manner. Certainly, we would not be in the Urban scene or the Heavy Metal or Hard Rock scene.

3179 Again, ours would be more Easy Listening across a broad cross-section of artists. So to say are there any lists, we don't do lists. We program our radio stations differently and as a result we don't use Billboard or any of those national lists that other broadcasters use to serve the metro market because we find that ours is a different style and different tone.

3180 Our music needs to be pleasing to the ear.

--- Laugher / Rires

3181 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You don't need videos.

3182 MR. HILDEBRAND: This may sound corny, but we found it works.

3183 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Is this in your new FMs in Steinbach and Morden, is this a similar format that you are using there?

3184 MR. HILDEBRAND: Yes.

3185 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

3186 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cram.

3187 That concludes Phase I -- I'm sorry. Mr. Batstone.

3188 MR. BATSTONE: I have two quick questions. I realize you said earlier that you don't solicit any advertising from the Calgary market. I was wondering if you receive any advertising currently from the Calgary market?

3189 MR. HILDEBRAND: As I said, we don't have any retail advertising in Calgary.

3190 MR. BATSTONE: My second question then would be, you have noted that tuning in Calgary to your AM station is currently low.

3191 MR. HILDEBRAND: Yes.

3192 MR. BATSTONE: Do you feel it would be different, though, with an FM -- with a music format? I think tuning to AM is generally lower, obviously.

3193 MR. HILDEBRAND: The tuning would be low because we wouldn't be serving Calgary. We wouldn't be providing any Calgary information. That's not what we do. Because the signal is available doesn't mean that people tune to it if there is no information for them.

3194 So we would expect our tuning to the FM to be equally low.

3195 MR. BATSTONE: Thank you very much.

3196 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Hildebrand and panel members for your presentation this morning.

--- Pause / Pause

3197 THE CHAIRPERSON: As I mentioned earlier, that concludes Phase I of this hearing. We will now move into Phase II.

3198 Phase II is when the applicants intervene against each other's applications. We are prepared to begin that now.

3199 Mr. Secretary.

3200 MR. BURNSIDE: To begin Phase II, I would like to call Telemedia Radio (West) Inc., on behalf of a company to be incorporated.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

3201 MR. BEAUDOIN: For the record, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, my name is Claude Beaudoin. I'm the President of Telemedia Radio.

3202 We have chosen not to intervene.

3203 Thank you.

3204 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Beaudoin, but legal (technical difficulty) question for you.

3205 MR. BATSTONE: We have one question.

3206 Both yesterday and today, parties have come forward and said that there are potentially other frequencies available in the market.

3207 My question would be: In the event the Commission decided that two licences could be awarded -- and I supposes these would be licences from the applicants who are applying for 98.5 -- how would that affect your plans?

3208 MR. BEAUDOIN: I guess we all have to recognize that there are other frequencies and, of course, if the CRTC decision is to give more than one licence and ask Telemedia to move to another frequency, we would accept that.

3209 In terms of impacting our business plan, the only comment that I would make -- and I would hope that the CRTC take that into consideration -- is the tower is going to be used by the various applicants and, as the CRTC is aware, we are the only one who is not on the CBC tower; so, therefore, our impact would be more significant. But, again, it's a technical issue. That could be resolved.

3210 MR. BATSTONE: Thank you.

3211 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Beaudoin.

3212 Mr. Secretary...?

3213 MR. BURNSIDE: I would like to now call Newcap Inc. to present their intervention.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

3214 MR. TEMPLETON: Mr. Chair, at this time we are not going to intervene. We are quite satisfied with the process and we look forward to seeing you in Phase IV.

3215 THE CHAIRPERSON: Legal...?

3216 MR. BATSTONE: Then I would just ask you the same question that I posed to Mr. Beaudoin: In the event the Commission were to award two licences and you were one of them, would that -- how would that affect your business plan? Would it be a problem?

3217 MR. TEMPLETON: It would depend on who was licensed. The more diverse the format of a second commercial Calgary licence, the more diverse would have less effect on our application. We were fairly conservative in our numbers, so if there was a second licence that was very diverse in the market, it would have little or not impact on our numbers and we would be able to achieve those.

3218 Obviously, the non-profit aboriginal licence would have no effect on us whatsoever.

3219 MR. BATSTONE: And if (technical difficulty) format that was close, would that be problematic?

3220 MR. TEMPLETON: I don't think it would be problematic, over the long haul. It might take a little longer to get up to profitability. But it is a very lucrative market. There's a $50 million revenue supply here in radio, with five stations competing and if you look, compared to some other markets with the similar number of stations or more with a smaller revenue pie for the most part, they are profitable in major markets. So there would appear to be room

3221 MR. BATSTONE: Thank you.

3222 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Batstone.

3223 Commissioner Noël...?

3224 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Mr. Templeton, you decided not to intervene, at this stage.

3225 Do I understand that you do not object to the amendment proposed by Telemedia in their application?

3226 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes, we do. But I chose not to intervene.

3227 I thought it was stated very clearly in their presentation that it was not within the norms of the hearing process. So, we chose not to intervene.

3228 But to answer your question directly:  absolutely.

3229 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.

3230 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Noël.

3231 Commissioner Cram...?

3232 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So it absolutely means you object to their application for an amendment?

3233 MR. TEMPLETON: Yes. We respect the process, and the process, as we understand it, is: you submit your application and once they are gazette,d you can't change your application. So we understand that very clearly.

3234 Rob, did you have something to add?

3235 MR. STEELE: We chose not to intervene.

3236 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

3237 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner McKendry...?

3238 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: I guess, like Commissioner Cram, I just want to make sure that I understand your position when you say you chose not to intervene and I think you have said you do object to their application, and I think the process that was explained yesterday was that it is open to apply -- for somebody to apply to change their application in the course of the hearing and it's equally open for the other applicants to comment on that application. This is subject to legal counsel clarifying what I'm saying. But I just want to make sure I understand what your position is.

3239 I take it your position is you do object to the application they have made to amend their application in this proceeding?

3240 MR. TEMPLETON: I will just repeat what Rob said: We chose not to intervene.

3241 I was answering, I thought, a very personal direct question what my opinion was but we, corporately, choose not to intervene.

3242 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Templeton.

3243 MR. TEMPLETON: Thank you.

3244 MR. BURNSIDE: I would like to now call Craig Broadcast Systems Inc., on behalf of a company to be incorporated, to intervene.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

3245 MS STRAIN: Good morning, Chairman Williams. Jennifer Strain on behalf of Craig and Harvard.

3246 We choose not to intervene, at this stage.

3247 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioners, any questions?

3248 Mr. Batstone...?

3249 MR. BATSTONE: Again, I just pose the same question that we posed to the previous two applicants.

3250 MS STRAIN: Yes, Counsel, we have checked with our engineering consultants, as well, and understand there are alternate frequencies available and we would, you know, certainly consider those.

3251 We might reiterate what Bruce Cowie said on Monday, which is that one thing the Commission might consider is licensing one mainstream format and one specialty format but, yes, we would consider another frequency.

3252 MR. BATSTONE: But I take it from that you are saying that it would not be prohibitive, from a business standpoint --

3253 MS STRAIN: No.

3254 MR. BATSTONE: Thank you.

3255 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Strain.

3256 Mr. Secretary...?

3257 MR. BURNSIDE: I would like to now call Standard Radio Inc.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

3258 MR. SLAIGHT: Good morning. No horoscope today.

3259 THE CHAIRPERSON: That will be held against you, but go ahead.

3260 MR. SLAIGHT: Standard Radio is satisfied with the process through this phase and has chosen not to intervene.

3261 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Slaight.

3262 Commissioners...? Mr. Batstone...?

3263 MR. BATSTONE: Just the same question.

3264 If the Commission were to award two licences and you were to receive one, would that be a problem from a business plan standpoint?

3265 MR. SLAIGHT: If we were to receive one, we would not have an issue.

3266 We would also emphasize we would encourage the notion of a specialty format if the second one was licensed.

3267 MR. BATSTONE: Thank you.

3268 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Slaight.

3269 Mr. Secretary...?

3270 MR. BURNSIDE: I would now call CHUM Limited.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

3271 MR. WATERS: Good morning, Chairman, Members of the Commission.

3272 CHUM feels the Commission did a very thorough job of examining all the applications over the last two days and a bit and we choose not to intervene, at this time.

3273 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioners, any questions for the CHUM application?

3274 Mr. Batstone...?

3275 MR. BATSTONE: Yes, just the same question I posed to all the other applicants.

3276 If the Commission were to award two licences and one was awarded to you, would that present any problems, from the standpoint of your business plan?

3277 MR. WATERS: None whatsoever. We would love to have a licence here.

3278 MR. BATSTONE: Thank you.

3279 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Waters.

3280 Mr. Secretary...? We seem to be moving along very quickly.

3281 MR. BURNSIDE: I would like to now call Gary Farmer, on behalf of a company to be incorporated.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

3282 MR. FARMER: Commissioners, first, we would like to thank Golden West for agreeing to move its location and because of that, we have absolutely no intervention, at this time.

3283 THE CHAIRPERSON: Questions, Commissioners?

3284 Mr. Batstone...? None. Thank you.

3285 Thank you, Mr. Farmer.

3286 Mr. Secretary...?

3287 MR. BURNSIDE: Finally, in Phase II, I would like to call Golden West Broadcasting Ltd.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

3288 MR. HILDEBRAND: Since we aren't in the competitive process, we have no interventions, we choose not to make any further comments.

3289 THE CHAIRPERSON: But you may be willing to answer questions.

3290 Commissioners, are there any questions?

3291 Mr. Batstone? There are no questions?

3292 You need make no further comments, Mr. Hildebrand. Thank you.

3293 Mr. Secretary, this concludes Phase II. Do you have some announcements for Phase III?

3294 MR. BURNSIDE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3295 We are starting Phase III a little earlier than we had anticipated. There are some changes to the list that is contained on page 6 of the agenda with respect to appearing intervenors. I would just like to first go over those.

3296 As I mentioned earlier, the University of Calgary will now be appearing. It would go now in slot 16. Susan Farrell, who is in slot 16 at the present time, will not be intervening.

3297 Also, Gloria McRae, who is in slot 18 will not be appearing.

3298 As well, Louis Neighbor will not be appearing who is in slot 23.

3299 And Marilyn Buffalo will not be appearing either, but I'm not sure she made this list. I'm working off two lists right now.

3300 In any case, most of the intervenors had been informed that we would probably go through into Thursday morning with the intervention phase, but due to these dropouts and the shortness of Phase II, I would just like to alert the applicants that they might have -- the last few on this list that were anticipating to appear tomorrow could very well be called today if it is possible.

3301 At the end of today, once we have gone through the list, we will recall anyone who didn't appear. We are not sure we will get to the final phase today, but because of these dropaways and the short Phase II, I would just like the applicants' co-operation in contacting their intervenors.

3302 Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3303 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Secretary.

3304 In view of how quickly we have proceeded through this morning, I propose that we take our morning break at this time which will allow a little more time for the intervenors to get here and be organized. Twenty-five minutes, I think.

3305 MR. BURNSIDE: We will return at 25 after 10:00 please.

3306 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 1005 / Suspension à 1005

--- Upon resuming at 1035/ Reprise à 1035

3307 THE CHAIRPERSON: If you will please be seated, we will call the Calgary public hearing back to order.

3308 Mr. Secretary, do you have some information on the interventions?

3309 MR. BURNSIDE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3310 Just to clarify for everybody what system we will follow today with the intervention phase, I already understand that some people who were scheduled for Thursday are not going to be able to be here until Thursday, so for the rest of the day we will proceed down the order of interventions.

3311 Anyone who is not here when they are called, at the end of today I will call them one time. If they are still not here, we will call them along with others that we know will not be here for sure until tomorrow morning, so once we are through the list today that will be the end of the day for the hearing and Phase IV for these applications will definitely take place tomorrow morning.

3312 Now I would like to begin Phase III by calling CFWE-FM (AMMSA), Mr. Bert Crowfoot.

3313 He doesn't appear to be in the room so he will be recalled later.

3314 I would next like to call the Calgary Boys Choir -- actually, the representatives of the Calgary Boys Choir.

--- Laughter / Rires

3315 THE CHAIRPERSON: I thought you had some special entertainment planned for us this morning, Mr. Secretary.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

3316 MR. RYAN: Good morning, Commissioners.

3317 Firstly, I must apologize. We had hoped this morning that our artistic director, Arlie Langager, would be making part of this presentation to you. Unfortunately, she has to lecture at university at this time. So you will forgive me if I shuffle a lot of papers here because I have her notes and mine.

3318 What I would like to do is briefly outline the Calgary Boys Choir to you. It may be perhaps you have heard of the Calgary Boys Choir -- at least I hope so.

3319 It was founded in 1973. Since then more than 1,200 boys have graduated through the choir.

3320 We have four choirs -- five choirs, pardon. We have a young Singer, intermediate choir, performing choir, the touring choir which is basically the touring choir, which tours throughout Canada, North America and recently to Europe, and we have an alumni choir which takes boys often with voices of Berko -- like Kim and myself I guess, but we are still not going to sing.

3321 The choir really, apart from giving an excellent, sound musical education to boys here in Calgary, it very much is a way of life for them. We take boys at the age of three. Apparently, there is one boy in the alumni choir who is 21 -- Jackuie?

3322 They progress through the choir getting a very high standard of musical education. Then when they join the performing, touring and alumni choirs they perform. This in itself is an education for them.

3323 The choir really has a fine history of performing.

3324 We have performed with José Carreras, with Allan Monk, Natalie Cole and Kenny Loggins, the Tokyo Symphony, the Calgary Philharmonic and Calgary Opera, the Alberta Ballet and the Canadian Brass. It isn't just a choir that sings for itself. We do perform with other artists.

3325 The touring choir performs an extensive schedule of local, national and international concerts. The choir tours have taken them around the world including: Japan, United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, Poland, Austria, and of course the United States.

3326 Last summer the touring choir and the alumni choir went on tour to Belgium and France. They are great ambassadors for the city of Calgary.

3327 We were very happy and indeed pleased to be asked to intervene on behalf of CHUM. As I'm sure you heard in their initial presentation, their m.PLAY program is something that we are very interested in and would wholeheartedly support.

3328 The organization is very much self-funding. We rely for the education of the boys and indeed our equipment, instruments, teachers totally on funding from within the organization. This is in the form of parent fundraising of course, as I'm sure you may have done for your kids. Lots of bingos, lots of casinos -- lots of hard work.

3329 My brief was, this morning, to talk really in behalf of the parents and the board, and it was Arlie's to talk on behalf of the actual education and what goes into the choirs.

3330 From my own point of view, any program that will assist with the learning and advocacy for our youth in music is something that we would wholeheartedly support. In fact, that is what we do as a choir. We concentrate very much on education. For instance, boys in the performing and touring choirs require voice lessons. As you are probably aware, you just can't come and sing in an elite choir. You have to be trained, and training costs money, currently paid for by parents.

3331 We do try to fund raise from the local business community, in fact from anybody that will give us money, to grow the choir. It's a very hard and arduous task -- very, very difficult.

3332 The program that is proposed here, which is $4.2 million over seven years, for all the arts, the music community, for youth in Calgary, is something that we would wholeheartedly support.

3333 I think it is important to say also that choir boys don't just stay choir boys, that we do provide and develop a very broad music capacity and capability.

3334 If I can just read you some of the people who have graduated from the choir. Currently we have -- and you will get a copy of this -- Andreas Berko, who is already through to a local recording career with The FABULOUS Doo-Wop Boys here in Calgary. And Alex Birnie has spent two years as a principal soloist with the Vienna Boys Choir. Jacob Doherty sings with the classic a cappella group Vos Antiqua. We have Brent McAthey, who is a singer/songwriter and recording country artist. We have Matt Sommers who also spent one year with the Vienna Boys Choir. We have David Wilson who is the choir director of Spiritus. And we have Gordon Gietz, who is an opera singer, as you are aware.

3335 I think what we are trying to say is the choir, irrespective of CHUM's station itself and the music it plays, we are extremely excited at the possibility of them contributing to the growth of musical education and advocacy in Calgary. As the Calgary Boys Choir we would wholeheartedly support that.

3336 I think that is where we are at the moment. If you have any questions, please feel free.

3337 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

3338 I have to admit, I am a little disappointed after our hearing secretary clarified his original statement and said that the Calgary Boys Choir may in fact not be appearing, but representatives from the Calgary Boys Choir. As I look through your brochure I see one of your slogans is: Boys should be seen and heard.

3339 MR. RYAN: That's right.

3340 THE CHAIRPERSON: We were looking forward to that.

3341 My question for you I guess is: What type of a role or participation do you see happening between the Calgary Boys Choir and CHUM's proposed symposium?

3342 MR. RYAN: I think, as I understand it, if they are awarded the licence, we have been advised there will be a symposium of local arts groups, faculties and organizations such as ourselves -- we would obviously play a role in that symposium. I don't think we desire any particular connection beyond that, other than what is deserved, with other organizations by the Calgary Boys Choir. There is also a Calgary Girls Choir. There are many choirs. There are many other classical groups who deserve funding just as much as we do. But we have been asked to intervene. That's why we are here.

3343 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

3344 Commissioners, do you have any questions?

3345 Commissioner Langford.

3346 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you.

3347 There was a line of questioning that we had yesterday led by Commissioner Cram -- that's why I was holding back. I thought she might ask it herself -- but it was talking about the kind of timeframe -- I'm sure she could put it better than I because it was her line of questioning, but I will do my best -- talking about the kind of timeframe it takes to develop a classical artist -- and in a ways you may be as close as we are going to get to that sort of idea -- and try to get a sense of when product would come.

3348 It is very difficult to put this in terms of product and development and production, but you are starting with a child of 3, 4 or 5 years old and you are ending up with an alumni in 18, 19, 20. When do you know? How much time does it take before you say "Oh, you know, this is good. This is going to work. This is a good fit. We have something here. The years we have put in, the money we have spent, the time we have spent is going to pay off."

3349 Is that a fair question or is it just outrageous?

3350 MS SHAND: Yes. I might be able to help you with that.

3351 Are you talking individual child or group?

3352 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, either one. We are just trying to get a sense of how we can track sort of value for money in a way.

3353 People come before us and they make commitments to the development of Canadian talent, but how do you know if you have developed any? It's tricky. If someone puts out a CD you have an idea because someone out in the market has said "I will invest in you", but if you are singing in a church --

3354 MS SHAND: Right.

3355 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: -- that is a wonderful thing, but how do you track it? How do we say "Yes, money was well spent here"?

3356 MS SHAND: We have recorded three CDs, a Christmas CD and two that are more general repertoire. Very popular. The Christmas one is sold out and we are just in the midst of recutting that.

3357 I think the fact that the Boys Choir has been in existence -- this is its 28th year starting -- is proof that they have a product that has been purchased by the community, applauded by people who went to see them. And we have a membership of close to 100, which is the basically the numbers every year and growing constantly.

3358 Very well received by people in other countries and everything as well. Our tour this summer was phenomenal. Our final concert had 800 people at it that had never heard us before but went away with a standing ovation.

3359 The product I think is proving itself by what the audiences are doing when they hear them.

3360 MR. RYAN: I think, to answer your question as well, we try to encourage every child to be a performer, and you are quite right that some children of course perform better than others.

3361 I think we feel on a general basis that an organization like ourselves, if we are allowed to grow -- and that really is a funding prerequisite that we are able to grow -- we can produce performers at the age of 10 that could be in a different sphere of musical excellence at the age of 18. But I think unless they have the musical grounding and the background, which is what we are looking for, the ability to give them more voice lessons, to record different types of music, to bring in outside master classes, they don't have a chance of becoming that excellent performer.

3362 I hope that answers your question.

3363 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It does. Thank you very much.

3364 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

3365 Commissioner McKendry.

3366 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3367 I had a discussion with CHUM yesterday, we had quite a talk about musical education in schools, and I take it that the education involvement of the children you are working with are outside the school system, the formal school system.

3368 I just wonder if you could comment at all or if you have any thoughts about the scope and the role of music education outside the school system, particularly since I have the impression from our discussion yesterday that musical education in schools is under a lot of pressure here in Calgary?

3369 MR. RYAN: Yes, it is, if I can start the answer to that.

3370 I'm also on the executive of our local school band program, which is a very good program with an excellent teacher. It is mostly funded by the parents, I have to say, tours, instruments, again master classes, concerts. It is a whole lot of effort by a lot of parents.

3371 I know that part of CHUM's program is to provide musical instruments, and one of the great problems that band teachers have and which is passed onto parents is the supply of musical instruments.

3372 In my experience, this is done by the bands teaching themselves here in this area, in Calgary. I can speak of at least three or four schools that I know of that extra instruments are funded at the initiative of the band master.

3373 So again, anything that would provide more instruments for young musicians I would wholeheartedly support.

3374 I don't think this would be, what shall we say, a bureaucratic issue between school boards, schools and donor. Currently my own company provides sponsorship for local schools for musical instruments. So, you know, it is something that is quite normal here.

3375 Jacquie, you wanted to say something.

3376 MS SHAND: Something I just wanted to say too, that in the schools the extracurricular programs are the first things that are cut if there is low funding, music being one of them.

3377 What a lot of people maybe don't understand is, to be a musician, to learn music, you have to be very extremely focused. Most children who have a music background are very focused in school and actually learn faster. Their classes show it. Their marks show it. Music is an integral part of aiding to that.

3378 So we certainly -- our boys are well-rounded, they sing, they do well in school, a lot of them are athletes as well, and they have learned through this control, through music and through the learning process to budget themselves very well to do that. So it is really important to keep it going.

3379 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Thank you very much representatives of Calgary Boys Choir.

3380 There are no further questions.

3381 MR. RYAN: Thank you, Commissioners.

3382 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary.

3383 MR. BURNSIDE: With your leave, Mr. Chair, I would go back up one since CFWE, Mr. Bert Crowfoot is now in the room.

3384 So we will now call what existed as Intervention No. 1 in the Agenda.

--- Pause / Pause

3385 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.

3386 MR. BURNSIDE: Good morning, Mr. Crowfoot.

3387 Please proceed with your intervention.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

3388 MR. CROWFOOT: Good morning. I would like to apologize for being a few minutes late. We drove in from Edmonton this morning.

3389 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are running a little ahead of schedule, so we understand that.

3390 MR. CROWFOOT: Okay.

3391 Oki!

3392 Welcome to the territory of the Blackfoot Confederacy. I am Bert Crowfoot from Siksika First Nation which is located 50 miles east of here.

3393 I once did an interview for Buffalo Spirit with Ruth Brass, who is my elder from Siksika. Ruth told me that when I called her for an interview she made an offering to the Creator, asking that her words be the truth, that she would not tell lies, for what she had to say was important to whoever was listening to or reading Buffalo Spirit.

3394 This morning, I also made an offering, asking that the words that I have to say are the truth, for these words are very important about the future of aboriginal communications in Canada.

3395 I am the CEO of the Aboriginal Multi Media Society, AMMSA, which publishes Windspeaker, a national aboriginal publication started in 1993. We have three provincial publications: Alberta Sweetgrass, Saskatchewan Sage and B.C. Raven's Eye. We also have published Buffalo Spirit, which is a spiritual-cultural publication. We have Aboriginal Media Services, which is an advertising agency for a lot of the native publications across Canada. We also have CFWE-FM, which is a radio station that covers almost every First Nation and Metis settlement in Alberta.

3396 In 1983, 85 per cent of our budget relied on government funding. In 1987, the provincial government told us they were phasing out the aboriginal communications program over three years. At that time we set a goal to become self-sufficient in five years.

3397 In 1990, the federal government cut the Native Communications Program and we lost approximately 75 per cent of our funding. Nine of the eleven aboriginal newspapers died that year, but because of our goal of self-sufficiency we had a solid foundation to survive and to build on.

3398 Today we have an annual budget of $2 million, 15 per cent of which we receive in government funding. We generate approximately 85 per cent of our own revenue. If the federal government were to cut the Northern Native Broadcast Access Program tomorrow, we would be able to survive.

3399 Some would say that we are intervening because we fear the competition. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am involved in coaching competitive softball and I love competition.

3400 My philosophy regarding competition is that competition should be viewed as the opportunity to be pushed to your limit by a worthy opponent in order to grow and reach your full potential. The opponent cannot be viewed as the enemy, someone to be feared, but rather as the positive resistance who will provide you with the opposition that will challenge you and promote growth. The greater the resistance or challenge, the greater the opportunity for growth.

3401 I have even offered to assist my competition in becoming stronger. In softball I work in the off season with opposing pitchers so that we can have a strong league.

3402 Another example is published in the October 2000 editorial column of John Lagimodiere, publisher of Eagle Feather News in Saskatchewan. He writes:

"As I entered the business world, I was like a ship without a rudder. No clue as to what I was doing, nor any clue as to how to proceed, or if it was even worthwhile. Out of the fog came Bert Crowfoot, publisher of Windspeaker and the Saskatchewan Sage. I met him at a journalism conference in Seattle and he was very glad to help me. This gentleman is my biggest competition in the province and yet he was willing to offer advice to his other operation and words of support for paper. The only reason he gave is that by having strong competition, they will get better as well. I admired that."

3403 At this time I would like to thank you for allowing me the opportunity to present to the Commission on behalf of the Aboriginal Multi-Media Society, as well as three other aboriginal broadcasters who support AMMSA's position; Native Communications Incorporated in Manitoba, Missinipi Broadcasting Corporation in Saskatchewan, as well as Northern Native Broadcasting Terrace in British Columbia.

3404 Their letters should be in the Commission's possession, but I have brought copies with me.

3405 Intervening to the CRTC opposing the application submitted by Mr. Gary Farmer and Aboriginal Voices Radio for a broadcasting licence to serve the City of Calgary, Alberta is not something that we do lightly. It is done with a great deal of consideration and reflects our concern with the future of aboriginal broadcasting throughout Canada.

3406 Simply stated, it is our belief that Aboriginal Voices Radio has not yet proven its capabilities as a broadcaster. It has only recently received CRTC approval for its operation in Toronto -- which AMMSA supported. Aboriginal Voices Radio should be applying all of its focus and resources to meeting the obligations stipulated under the terms of its licence. Instead it is undertaking very ambitious plans for expansion.

3407 We believe that Aboriginal Voices Radio must be provided the opportunity to succeed in Toronto and only at such time as it has developed an audience and broadcast experience should any plans for further expansion be considered. As a new and inexperienced broadcaster, Aboriginal Voices Radio will have great difficulty simultaneously developing a single viable station and establishing a network.

3408 Aboriginal Voices Radio filed a response to AMMSA's letter of intervention and there is material in that response which further develops our position.

3409 Much has been made of the survey conducted on behalf of Aboriginal Voices Radio.

3410 AMMSA will not dispute that the need for an aboriginal radio service in Calgary or any urban areas exists. What we are stating is that the Aboriginal Voices Radio survey has not proven that they are the broadcaster capable of meeting that need.

3411 It is AMMSA's understanding the Aboriginal Voices Radio survey asked 1,500 urban Canadians if they perceived a need for a new national aboriginal radio service. Of these 1,500 people, how many are aboriginal? How many of these people are from Calgary? How many stated that they would tune in to the new service?

3412 This survey is simply not a reliable gauge as to the commercial viability of the new aboriginal radio service which Aboriginal Voices intends to operate. The real survey will be conducted once the broadcasts begin and listeners make their feelings known by using the tuner on their radios.

3413 What would the results be if a similar survey was conducted to gauge people's perceptions for the need for a new national aboriginal magazine? The level of need would be just as high as the radio survey.

3414 The irony is that there was a publication filling this need, Aboriginal Voices Magazine, which suspended publishing in December of 1999.

3415 Aboriginal Voices Magazine was, as Mr. Farmer states in his response, an award-winning publication and received much acclaim. Yet after six years of funding and government programs, it could not become financially viable in a desirable location like Toronto where many of the advertising agencies and large corporations are based. This reflects directly on the business capabilities of management.

3416 Aboriginal Voices Magazine should have become self-sufficient in six years.

3417 Contrary to Mr. Farmer's claim, resourcefulness and perseverance, as well as awards, while admirable, still do not pay the bills and could not save Aboriginal Voices Magazine.

3418 Mr. Farmer's proven skills are in lobbying and securing grants, but the skills necessary to become financially self-reliant are yet to be proved.

3419 Mr. Farmer's letter of response also uses critical acclaim for the television program "Buffalo Tracks" produced by Aboriginal Voices in support of the financial stability of the radio venture. "Buffalo Tracks" is only produced as long as production funds are secured from the Aboriginal People's Television Network. Without those funds, "Buffalo Tracks" would cease to exist.

3420 We are further concerned that the Aboriginal Voices Radio application for Calgary contains serious overstatements.

3421 Aboriginal Voices Radio has not developed a working relationship with existing broadcasters, certainly not the ones west of Ontario.

3422 The only time Mr. Farmer contacted AMMSA was to secure letters of support for Aboriginal Voices Radio applications first for a temporary licence and then for a full licence for Toronto. Mr. Farmer never contacted AMMSA regarding his current licence applications, network, Calgary and Vancouver.

3423 Several years ago Mr. Farmer was working on a nationally distributed radio program consisting of a live feed for the Aboriginal Festival Powwow held at the SkyDome. He approached AMMSA with the idea less than two weeks before the scheduled air date and was upset when we refused.

3424 We refused because we were expected to pre-empt our existing program to make room for the day long feed without any compensation. Mr. Farmer became agitated when his program was refused because he had sold his feed to sponsors with the assurance of a national broadcast. Had AMMSA been contacted earlier and had the necessary arrangements been made, we would have considered working with Mr. Farmer.

3425 After this, Mr. Farmer did not contact us until his request for letters of support.

3426 In December 1999, while I was in Toronto, I was approached by one of Mr. Farmer's representatives who suggested that I meet with him. I made myself available but the meeting never took place.

3427 Mr. Farmer states in his response that a consultation process has been undertaken with aboriginal broadcasters and uses his Media Conference in 1999 as an example. He states:

"In June of 1999, at the University of Toronto, Aboriginal Voices held a National Aboriginal Media Conference that included attended by Mr. Crowfoot, as well as many others."

3428 I would like to remind Mr. Farmer that in fact I was not present at his Media Conference, not in 1999 nor in 2000.

3429 The only media workshop I was asked to attend was one schedule for June 2000 and that was dependent on funds being secured by Mr. Farmer's group for travel costs.

3430 I was advised only days prior that the funds never materialized and the meeting as originally proposed to me by Mr. Farmer never took place. I know that Marty Bellentyne from Missinipi Broadcasting Corporation in Saskatchewan also did not attend for the same reason.

3431 AMMSA is not sure how Aboriginal Voices Radio will establish a working relationship with other aboriginal broadcasters after a licence is granted, especially if not attempt has been made prior to licence application.

3432 Another overstatement consists of the reference to one of the Aboriginal Voices Radio Board Members as an AMMSA sponsored international award winner. AMMSA sponsors many aboriginal groups throughout Canada. One such group is the Indigenous Arts Service Organization, IASO, who annually present aboriginal media awards in British Columbia. AMMSA provides funds to the IASO to present an award. IASO selects the recipient and AMMSA is not involved in the selection process. To suggest that a recipient of one of these awards is somehow a recommendation of AMMSA is simply overstated.

3433 Let's move on to the specifics of the Calgary application. The Aboriginal Voices radio application does not fully consider the implications of its rebroadcast of Toronto programming for a Calgary audience.

3434 For example, the Toronto morning show will be heard in Calgary between 4:00 and 7:00 a.m. in the morning. The afternoon drive home show will feature one hour of non-aboriginal multilingual programming between 4:00 and 5:00 p.m.

3435 MR. BURNSIDE: Mr. Crowfoot, your time is up. Could you wrap up please.

3436 MR. CROWFOOT: Okay. I have just got a couple more.

3437 On page 14 of the Aboriginal Voices Radio for Calgary application dated May 23, 2000 it states the budget for operations at $50,000 per year. This figure is repeated in a subsequent letter to the CRTC responding to more detailed questions dated July 25, 2000 on page 3 under the hearing "Marketing".

3438 However, in the same letter on page 5, the operating expenses are now listed at $75,000. What is it, $50,000 or $75,000?

3439 The sense of urgency with which Aboriginal Voices Radio is making its expansion plans is also cause for concern.

3440 A great deal of responsibility will be entrusted to any individual or group claiming the aboriginal title and using it to develop a broadcast enterprise. This is particularly the case when non-aboriginal people who listen to the program will be passing judgment not only on the aboriginal broadcaster, but on all aboriginal people.

3441 Care must be taken to ensure that National Aboriginal Radio Network is successful because should it fail it will cause damage not only to aboriginal broadcasters, but to all aboriginal people.

3442 There are existing models where slow and steady growth has been undertaken with very successful results. APTN is one example. The idea for APTN is not new and took many years to develop. APTN is comprised of many aboriginal television groups and producers who gained valuable experience independently and then pooled their resources in Television Northern Canada. As TVNC they further gained experience and insight and only after many years did the individual operations group together to create a truly national aboriginal television service, reflecting the varied interests and culture of the aboriginal people.

3443 It would be wise for a national radio network to follow a similar model of careful planning.

3444 If we must error, let us error on the side of caution rather than speed.

3445 Aboriginal Voices Radio needs to build their foundation in Toronto. Any plans for expansion must be based on a solid foundation. The more solid the foundation, the likelihood of success and benefit for all aboriginal people.

3446 In closing, I would like to say we are willing to work with Mr. Farmer, that we have scheduled a meeting tomorrow and on Friday with the four western aboriginal communications groups from western Canada. We will be meeting in Edmonton and there what we are doing is sharing resources. We are opening our books. We are exchanging ideas on marketing, on sales, on administration and all those different aspects of running a broadcast operation. This meeting has been scheduled, like I said, for tomorrow.

3447 We are not saying don't give the licence to Aboriginal Voices Radio. What we are saying is let's wait until they prove themselves that they can operate a successful business operation and only at that time should they be considered for a national network.

3448 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Crowfoot, for your presentation and comments this morning.

3449 A couple of things strike me. We just heard Mr. Farmer's application yesterday, in fact, and many, many Albertans were with him from the aboriginal community, such as Marilyn Buffalo, from the Sampson Cree; Margaret Rider, from the Nakota Nation, a radio broadcaster; Raymond Littlechief, for the Aboriginal Society for Aboriginal Youth; Mark MacLeod, with AVR; Leon Anthony, an independent Alberta radio and television producer; Michele Thrush, an aboriginal artist from the Calgary area. I guess also in the audience is Shane Breaker of the Siksika Nation Communications, which is where you are with.

3450 So I guess I want to explore your intervention. Your intervention quite clearly states that Albertans and Calgarians of aboriginal ancestry have not been consulted or involved in this process, so --

3451 MR. CROWFOOT: What we were saying with the survey, as indicated to us, was that it said "urban Canadians", it didn't say "aboriginal people". So we were asking the question.

3452 Also, when we first started broadcasting in Alberta, we went out and asked people, "Do you want an aboriginal radio station?", and the answer is, obviously, yes, because something is better than nothing. But what happens in two or three years, if this thing fails, then there's nothing again.

3453 What we are saying is -- and we are not saying no to it because we support the idea and we are willing to work with somebody at developing the idea. Our concern is that they haven't proven themselves, and when they do attempt to set up a network, we want it to be successful. The gist of our whole presentation is that we don't think they are ready yet. They haven't proved themselves. Any expertise that -- or any ventures that they have worked on in the past have all been generated or sponsored through funds rather than through -- rather than using the business sector, they have gone for the funding sector. So, those are our concerns.

3454 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you see an opportunity for Calgary aboriginal business people to be involved in a national board of AVR should the licence be approved?

3455 One of the conditions of AVR being licensed is they must have representation from the market that they serve.

3456 MR. CROWFOOT: I can see it but, you know, we have had the response, when we solicited aboriginal businesses in Alberta -- I mean we have 18 years' of experience contacting these business people and, yes, they are more than happy to support the idea. But when it comes time to ask them for advertising dollars, it comes, but not as much as we need to run an operation.

3457 The support will be there at the beginning. And the aboriginal broadcasters ourselves know that there is a need for a service. So we are not disputing that point. Our concerns are the business side and the track record.

3458 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess my question is in the area of the business side and the track record.

3459 Do you see a way that the business expertise and track records of proven organizations such as you have described can be beneficial to this application?

3460 Would that alleviate some of your concerns if they we involved?

3461 MR. CROWFOOT: It would. But the concern I have is in the administration rather than at the board.

3462 As you know, a lot of boards meet once a month, once every two months, once every three months, and the board should be policy making rather hands on, and for a board member who has that experience to come in and get involved in a day-to-operations of a not-for-profit society is something that is frowned at all not-for-profit organizations.

3463 I would say it would help. But that expertise needs to be in the office; it needs to be in the day-to-day operation.

3464 Now, if a CEO who has been in the industry for many years is brought on board then, yes, that would alleviate a lot of concerns.

3465 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I am now going to talk about the area of their application that deals with them being up and running. A proven radio station operator.

3466 I don't know if you heard much of the discussion yesterday afternoon but they have indicated to us that they have held off implementing that for reasons of a court challenge that affected the Toronto radio hearing.

3467 Were you aware of that being the reason as to why they had not --

3468 MR. CROWFOOT: No; what he indicated in his response to our intervention was that they had a year to get the operation up and running. There was no mention of a -- I believe it's in your letter of response to the letter that I gave. So there is no mention of a court challenge in that response.

3469 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Your intervention states that it's filed for a variety of reasons, including -- and we will work our way through each of the four or five main ones here.

3470 There's no clear need for a national aboriginal radio service as this need is largely being met by current broadcasters.

3471 In your remarks this morning, you talked about CFWE, which is a radio station that covers almost every First Nation and Métis settlement in Alberta.

3472 MR. CROWFOOT: Right.

3473 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you have remote facilities in each of these communities or adjoining communities?

3474 MR. CROWFOOT: We broadcast on satellite and we downlink to 50 sites across the province and we rebroadcast on small 10-watt transmitters in the majority of these sites. Over the course of the last four years, we have started upgrading our sites. We put in a 12-kilowatt site up at Juice Art. There's a 12-kilowatt site down in Buffalo, up in Porcupine Hills, which covers all of southern Alberta. We have a 100-kilowatt site that's on the CRTC -- it's before the CRTC -- for the Moose Hills area, which would cover all of northeastern Alberta. We have other sites that we have in the future for expansion to cover the communities that are just outside of Edmonton that cover the communities that are just outside of Calgary. We have helped a number of the local community radio stations set up their operations, the one in Morley, the one in Siksika. We did help. They are on their own right now. We don't broadcast there at this time.

3475 THE CHAIRPERSON: If the AVR application is not approved, you made a comment this morning that maybe the time isn't right, maybe more time needs to pass by, it's an opportunity that only comes along once in a while and we want to make sure, in your words, that it's successful.

3476 MR. CROWFOOT: I think we have to look at the model of the Aboriginal People's Television Network, as I indicated earlier.

3477 How that operation started was they were granted funds under the Northern Native Broadcast Access Program. They began doing local programming which is similar -- you can make references or commonalities with the Toronto operation. Then, once they decided that they wanted to share programming, they started to get together and started to pool their resources and, as a result, TV Northern Canada came about. After that, they felt that there was a need to expand across Canada. And when that happened, that's a result of how the Aboriginal People's Television Network came about, and it took approximately 10 years to develop that model.

3478 THE CHAIRPERSON: In one of the letters that we have received in the file from Canada's First Nation Radio, dated October 24th, 2000, it states, in part, that four western aboriginal groups, together, have approximately 150 rebroadcast sites in western Canada, and the main organizations for each province are Native Communications Incorporated, Manitoba; Missinipi Broadcast Incorporation, Saskatchewan; Aboriginal Multi Media Society, in Alberta; and Northern Native Broadcasting, British Columbia.

3479 Have any of these four groups been involved in the AVR application?

3480 MR. CROWFOOT: We were all involved -- not in this application. We all gave letter support for the Toronto one when it was applied for.

3481 THE CHAIRPERSON: When you talk about the TVNC evolving to APTN model, do you envision these four groups, plus similar groups in other provinces eventually, working together to create this network?

3482 MR. CROWFOOT: The reference that I can use right now is "braided sweetgrass".

3483 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

3484 MR. CROWFOOT: You know, you have one group out there trying to do it and what happens is it's not very strong. You get many groups working together and it's really strong.

3485 So, as I mentioned earlier, we are meeting in Edmonton. We have, in the past five or six years, talked about working together. We have shared wrap-around programming from each area. What I would like to see, somewhere down the road, is that all the groups will want to set up a network get together, work together.

3486 I just received a call, or a letter, from a colleague First Nation about a week ago and their concern was that we produce 68 hours of original programming per week at CFWA.

3487 What they want is they want more Dene language programming because they have a real concern for loss of language. There are six language groups in Alberta -- main language groups. There is Siksika, Stoney, Tsuut'ina, Cree, Chip, Dene. All of these groups, what they want is they want programming in their languages.

3488 From what I understand, there is two and a half hours allocated for local programming from Edmonton or from Alberta in this log that he has developed, for the programming log that he has developed for the week. Two and a half hours is not enough time to address those needs. I mean, we have South American music in there. All the energy should be focused on producing aboriginal programming for Canada trying to address those needs.

3489 In the future we are looking at split programming but we have to get our own uplink. Once we get our own uplink we can split programming so we can do languages in Siksika or in Blackfoot, in Cree, in Dene at the same time. We can pull programming from Missinipi, which does two hours of Dene a day, and send it to those specific communities that are requesting Dene.

3490 THE CHAIRPERSON: Which tribe speaks Dene?

3491 MR. CROWFOOT: Dene is the people located in northern Canada. They are not Inuit but they are between the Inuit and the Cree.

3492 THE CHAIRPERSON: So they would be Slaveys or Chipeywan or Gwitchin.

3493 MR. CROWFOOT: Slaveys, Dog Rib --

3494 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Just a clarification. I'm from the north.

3495 These four groups that I was referring to in this letter from Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia, are there similar groups in the other provinces?

3496 MR. CROWFOOT: There are seven other groups across Canada and the Northwest Territories.

3497 THE CHAIRPERSON: These groups all work together at APTN?

3498 MR. CROWFOOT: On December 2nd the APTN board will be expanding it to include all the groups of the Northern Native Broadcast Access Program. Currently, there is a group of seven that is located south of 60. What we do is we have four boards to represent the seven organizations. They are expanding that board base to include all seven.

3499 THE CHAIRPERSON: You refer to meetings that are happening at some point in the future. Do you see a way that all these groups could not work together with AVR to make this project a reality? The project I'm referring to is I guess the Calgary station establishment of the Toronto station and some other aspects of AVR's plan.

3500 MR. CROWFOOT: I think that it is something that we need to discuss. As I had mentioned earlier, there had been meetings set up. We were invited but finally didn't come through, apparently, where all of these things were supposed to be discussed.

3501 We are meeting in Edmonton tomorrow, on our own cost, to work, first of all, at making sure that our individual societies have a strong foundation. Each of these societies has a strength in certain areas. Some of it is fund raising. Some of it is in administration. Some of it is finance. Some of it is in marketing and sales. What we are doing is we are sitting down, we are sharing that knowledge that is around the table, and what we are doing is making our individual society stronger.

3502 In order to address the needs, such as the letter I received from Cold Lake about Dene programming, we will talk about sharing programming. But I think it has to evolve to the point where Aboriginal Voices Radio would be part of the group that would look at a national network. We serve, like I said, all of Alberta with the exception of Calgary and Edmonton, but those communities will be covered in the future, three or four years down the road, when we do improve our distribution.

3503 NCI is now located in Winnipeg. Missinipi has plans for broadcasting in Regina and Saskatoon. So those are things that we are looking at down the road.

3504 We don't want to, I guess, take too big a step at first and try to expand into those places. You know, if we can't meet the financial obligations then nothing is gained.

3505 THE CHAIRPERSON: If Aboriginal Voices was not given a licence, do you see these groups working together over the next few months or years to develop a similar type network but with more of a grassroots foundation -- Sweetgrass --

3506 MR. CROWFOOT: I can see that happening in the future because we are going in that direction right now. But, like I said, it is something that -- we are using the model of APTN. It is something that we know. I mean I would love to have it tomorrow, but I don't think it is feasible. When we do try it we want to make sure that it does succeed.

3507 On the print side, I have had a lot of competition from other aboriginal newspapers that are set up and what happens is they come in, they set up, they sell advertising, they burn the client. Then, since I have been around 18 years publishing our newspapers, I'm the guy that is left having to explain to these clients that aboriginal communications or aboriginal newspapers are a good business. People are saying: well, I got burned once; I don't want to get burned a second time, because the publication didn't come through with what it promised.

3508 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

3509 You talk about the financial base of AVR being precarious. Yesterday they told us they have a $750,000 rainy day fund, so to speak.

3510 MR. CROWFOOT: Interest-free loan, from what I understand.

3511 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

3512 MR. CROWFOOT: It's not a grant; it's a loan.

3513 THE CHAIRPERSON: But they had the cash available, I guess.

3514 MR. CROWFOOT: Like I said, based on past track record, I have a concern about the ability to generate enough revenue to cover the current costs of running an operation without having to -- managing debt.

3515 THE CHAIRPERSON: Even in the largest radio market in Canada, the Toronto radio market? I mean Calgary is a very lucrative market as well, is what we have heard throughout the hearing.

3516 MR. CROWFOOT: That's exactly what I'm saying. When Aboriginal Voices Magazine failed in the largest market in Canada, does that give me ease of conscience that he is going to do better in smaller markets like Calgary?

3517 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is the print market as lucrative as the broadcast market in either of those locations?

3518 MR. CROWFOOT: It should be enough to cover your operating costs for the year.

3519 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

3520 I think that covers the questions that I have developed from hearing your presentation this morning and reading your interventions.

3521 Do the Commissioners have any questions?

3522 Commissioner Cram.

3523 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you for coming.

3524 You say the board is expanding with APTN and it is Mr. Nadeau of NCI who is going to become the chair. Is that not correct?

3525 MR. CROWFOOT: He is the chair at this moment.

3526 COMMISSIONER CRAM: He is now. Yes.

3527 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.

3528 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So, Mr. McLeod, who is --

3529 THE CHAIRPERSON: The president.

3530 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I'm sorry. President?

3531 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand that Mr. Catholic is the chair and Mr. Nadeau is the president.

3532 MR. CROWFOOT: The chief executive officer.

3533 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The head guy.

3534 MR. CROWFOOT: It's not that title but it's something like that.

3535 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.

3536 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

3537 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And you attached Mr. McLeod's letter from NCI. He is now the interim general manager.

3538 I wanted to ask if you could in some way address the last paragraph of his letter. Do you have it with you? I can give it to you here.

3539 MR. CROWFOOT: If you can just read it to me. Then I will address it.

3540 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Sure.

"NCI believes there should be a consultation process with all native broadcasting societies in Canada before such an application is reviewed or even considered." (As read)

3541 And it is the last sentence that I am more interested in:

"As Aboriginal people, we recognize and respect the tribal territories of our people. The CRTC application should also recognize this factor in relation to designated radio territories." (As read)

3542 I am interested in that and what it really means. Forgive me. I'm not that knowledgeable.

3543 MR. CROWFOOT: What that means, is that in the past -- for example, we have one community in northern Alberta that wanted programming from Missinipi. They were right on the border. They are one of the Dene communities. What they did was they asked if Missinipi could come in and rebroadcast in that area.

3544 Missinipi called us and said, "There is a community in Alberta that wants Dene programming. Can we go in there?" We gave them the approval to go in there because we weren't -- we took ours out when they went in. So that's how that works.

3545 What we have done in the past is -- like I said, we are meeting tomorrow. We are opening our organizations and we are saying "This is how our board works", and everybody more or less gives the same sharing.

3546 So what we are doing is, we are more or less developing the area within our territory. Now our territory is not tribal, I think is what you would say, but it is still -- when aboriginal people travel across Canada and when they are in someone else's territory, usually what they do is they respect the rights and customs that take place in that territory.

3547 For example, out in the west, any time that we have presentations we always go clockwise. In Mohawk territory they always go counterclockwise. Some sit down, some stand up. When you have a national meeting it gets kind of confusing at times, because you don't know whether to stand up, sit down or go this way or that way.

--- Laughter / Rires

3548 MR. CROWFOOT: So you have to -- but you still try to respect what is happening in those territories.

3549 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you very much.

3550 Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3551 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cram.

3552 Maybe just one more question before I turn you over to Commissioner McKendry.

3553 Does your organization CFWE, have intentions or aspirations for applying for a Calgary radio licence should the AVR application be denied?

3554 MR. CROWFOOT: No, not at this time.

3555 As I had mentioned earlier, what we are doing is we are focusing on the First Nations of Alberta. There happens to be a community outside of Calgary that is Tsuut'ina, there happens to be a community outside of Edmonton that is Enoch(ph), and once we start broadcasting in those communities there is going to be, I guess, a carryover of the signal into the cities.

3556 Our intention is not to focus on the cities, or else we would have done that years ago because that is where the economic powers would be. What we have had to do is sell the strength of our programming to advertisers, even though they couldn't hear the signal.

3557 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, I misled you. I'm going to ask you one more question.

3558 Many comments have been made about the move to urban centres by aboriginal people from rural. Could you comment on that?

3559 I will give you a -- I think in your presentation you said 25.8 thousand aboriginal people live in the Calgary marketplace. Yesterday we heard an estimate of 40 --

3560 MR. CROWFOOT: I didn't make that, I don't think.

3561 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay. In the written interventions, then, one of the intervenors has.

3562 Yesterday we hear approximately 40,000 aboriginal people live in the Calgary market. So I guess many of your stations are small community-based radio stations, many --

3563 MR. CROWFOOT: Okay. What we have is a network of -- we have a network licence, so normally what we do is we don't apply for a new licence. What we do is get amendments to the licence to include different areas, since the network licence is already in place.

3564 As I mentioned, when we set up our intention was to reach all the First Nation communities and Metis settlements that were in the province.

3565 We understand that there is a large urban population and, like I said, we are not targeting those audiences, but they will receive some sort of feedback when we do go into those two communities that are located right on the outskirts of the cities.

3566 I mean, we could have gone in five years ago and set up transmitters in those communities and there would be signals in Calgary and Edmonton right now just because of the -- I mean, you can't control radio waves. You can't stop them at the outskirts of the city and say "Sorry, the reserve ends here and the city starts there so there is no signal going to the city". That just happens.

3567 If we were looking at applying for licences, we would have done that 10 years ago, but instead our focus was on the communities that are out there.

3568 We have intentionally held back on those communities because we had to make sure that we didn't infringe on the mainstream broadcasters that are in the city. We had to look at what frequency, et cetera, et cetera.

3569 So those are things that -- like I said, it is something that we have looked at down the road, but it wasn't one of our immediate goals and it is something that we are looking at down the road.

3570 THE CHAIRPERSON: So currently, if I hear you correctly, Edmonton and Calgary urban and aboriginal community does not have service then?

3571 MR. CROWFOOT: Not aboriginal programming, no.

3572 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

3573 Commissioner McKendry.

3574 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: My first question follows on Commissioner Williams question. I just wanted to make sure I understood the competitive relationship between Mr. Farmer's proposed Calgary station and the service that you provide.

3575 Because I had the impression from what I have heard and read that your service that exists outside of Calgary. You spent some time at the beginning of your presentation talking about competition, so I guess the essence of my question is: If we did license Mr. Farmer's service here in Calgary would it be competitive at all with the service that you provide?

3576 MR. CROWFOOT: I can't answer that because I haven't heard his programming. I don't know what it contains. I mean, people always up-sell "This is what I'm going to do", but when it actually comes out you have to judge it at that time.

3577 As I mentioned in my presentation, people are going to vote with the tuners on their radio, if they don't like the programming they are going to go somewhere else.

3578 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Again I guess this follows on something you have told Commissioner Williams: Can they vote with their tuners if aboriginal people here in Calgary can't receive your signals and if the people in the areas that you do serve can't receive the Calgary signal? How can they vote with their tuners?

3579 MR. CROWFOOT: Well, I mean, there are other signals in Calgary that are not aboriginal that people listen to already, and what happens is, if they don't like -- we went through this when we first set up our radio station. When we went out people were excited, we said "This is what we are going to do." We went into all these northern communities and people turned us on.

3580 For the most part I am happy to say that they stayed with us, but there are some people who didn't like the programming.

3581 I mean, what are you playing? If you are playing South American music and I happen to like country, I am not going to listen to it. If you are playing rock and I want to listen to pow-wow, I'm not going to listen to it. I mean, that is the right of any citizen or listener in this country, if they don't like what you are giving they have the option to turn in any other radio station on the dial.

3582 Now, as I mentioned, I'm not -- you know, I would welcome if we did set up competing radio signals in the City of Calgary. I would welcome it because what happens is, I am going to have to produce a program that people are going to want to listen to.

3583 Aboriginal Voices Radio also has to produce a signal that people want to listen to, because that is who is going to decide. It is not me or what I say or what I do, it is going to be the programming that I provide to the listeners of this city.

3584 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: But you have no immediate plans to set up transmitters in Calgary, if I understand what you have told us.

3585 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes. The reason I said that was because I don't want you to have the impression that I am saying "Don't give Aboriginal Voices a licence in Calgary because I want one three years down the road." No, I am not saying that.

3586 As I had mentioned, what I am saying is that when you listen -- my concern is on the business side. My concern is that he is not going to be here in two years because of not meeting enough -- not generating enough revenue to pay the bills. That is my concern. It has really nothing to do with programming or any of that side of the operation.

3587 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Help me understand, then, the risk to the broadcasting system or the risk to any other aspects of the broadcasting system -- or any specific aspects of the broadcasting system that you are particularly interested in, such as native broadcasting, on the assumption that we did license Mr. Farmer and the unfortunate circumstance occurred where his station did fail, what the downside, apart from the people directly involved with Mr. Farmer in that particular station and the people who have put their money into it, and so on. What is the risk? What is the downside that we, as a Commission, should be concerned about?

3588 MR. CROWFOOT: My concern is not really with the Aboriginal Voices Radio executive, management, production staff, board, or any of that side, my concern is the aboriginal people in Calgary, my concern is the non-aboriginal people in Calgary who don't always have a positive image in native people.

3589 When we ran the newspapers and another native newspaper came out, it was out three months and then it shut its doors and it took advantage of a lot of advertisers that didn't get what they were promised. The conception out there is: Well, what do you expect? Native people screw it up again. That is what I have to live with.

3590 I have been in communications for 25 years. I am not using it as a stepping stone to go on to something else. It has been my life up until now and, hopefully, if I live another 20 years I will still be in the business 20 years from now.

3591 I have to live with the consequences of that stigma that is attached to aboriginal people. We have managed to build our enterprise to the point where if funding was pulled we would still manage to survive and people look at it as a successful operation.

3592 As a result of that all of our newspapers are self-sufficient and my concern is the stigma that is left after if they do shut down.

3593 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Thank's very much.

3594 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Crowfoot. That concludes our questioning of your intervention.

3595 Mr. Secretary.

3596 MR. BURNSIDE: I would now like to call KC Styles.

3597 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Styles. Please proceed with your intervention.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

3598 MR. STYLES: Good morning.

3599 This is a little bit odd. I usually don't sit down when I talk, but it's all good.

3600 I am here on behalf of CHUM as you know. The first people that were up, the Calgary Boys Choir, I wonder if I may actually address one of the questions you addressed them. The question was: How long does it take -- you know, if this m.PLAY goes to play how long is it going to take to see artists and musicians and all come?

3601 Everybody has got their own opinions. Everybody has got their, well, you know, technically it is going to take this long, it is going to take that long. They tell me the violin is the hardest instrument to play and three and a half years later I am making a living on it. So, if you want something bad enough you are going to get it. It's the whole "Dream the Unseen" today.

3602 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, which instrument are you playing, Mr. Styles?

3603 MR. STYLES: Electric violin.

3604 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

3605 MR. STYLES: Where to begin? I told Duff I had notes but I lied. He is going to get me now.

3606 If you have got some questions when I am talking, it's kind of like the fastest finger button, just let the red light go on and talk away.

3607 Anyway, do you know what, I will tell you why m.PLAY is so big to me. I was in an accident when I was -- I was nine years old, the second week of grade five and I was hit by a truck -- extensive head injuries, was told I would never walk and I wasn't supposed to come out of a coma.

3608 I came out of a coma and I was never going to walk again, I was never going to do anything again. I had no motor skills and half o my body was paralyzed and that's just the way it was going to be. It was kind of one of those things you are told to deal with.

3609 I didn't deal with it though and as you can see I'm kind of walking now and talking.

3610 The thing is this though, that what happened was this accident totally wiped me out. You have got to remember that before this accident I was a big sports jock and that's all I knew was just sports and just this, that and the other thing. That was my dream, I was going to go on and be a hockey player and everything else. All of a sudden, you can't walk. I don't think you are going to be playing hockey or not even a water boy on the team. It's just not going to happen.

3611 The thing is I started walking. I had to learn all my motor skills again. I couldn't write. I couldn't do anything.

3612 From motor skills, to get my hand/eye co-ordination back together they figured, well, let's play Nintendo and get the hand/eye co-ordination. I had head injuries which dealt with my eyes and there were parts of my brain which I can't explain. It's not Dr. Styles today; just KC. It's like I can get something up here, but I have a difficult time getting it down on paper. The two motor skills aren't connecting.

3613 So video games didn't do much for me. I got more frustrated than anything.

3614 They put a pair of drumsticks in my hands and that was it, that is what started the whole kind of musical thing for me.

3615 I think the reason I am here and I am so passionate about m.PLAY is a business. You are not supposed to look at emotions, but you have got to understand music is based on emotions, driven on emotions. Records are sold on emotions.

3616 There is so much emotion in music and people have so much emotion with it. Music is just one side. I don't know if I am even explaining correctly.

3617 The emotion I went through and when they asked me if I might be able to talk and kind of read over the m.PLAY stuff and do that kind of thing, you know, another radio station. I don't spend a lot of my time in Calgary any more. The Canadian market hasn't really supported me as much as the American market, so hence the fact that I am an American.

3618 Anyway, I looked over this proposal given to me by Brian and Susan Farrell who are on the board and I just went to town. I couldn't believe it, what they were proposing to do with m.PLAY.

3619 The reason Brian and Susan are so close to me is all through high school and having the injuries that I had you have to write all your exams as scribes. All of your textbooks are on cassette. I don't care what anybody says, you are not normal. All you want to be is normal. You just want to play on a football team. It gets to the point where you sign up for a basketball team, the coach sees your name on the sign up and he pulls you aside and says you can be water boy or something, so you don't go through the embarrassment of not making the team and getting cut.

3620 Those are the years, they call it puberty, they call it everything else. I mean you are finding out who you are.

3621 Those years that I lived through I just can't even begin to describe the anger and all the things that I went through for those years just trying to be normal. When you've got a scribe following you around you are not normal. You can't do any of that.

3622 So I got myself into trouble. I wanted to be like the normal jock or something, so I would get myself in trouble. The final straw was grade 12. Every teacher said enough is enough, KC, you are done, that's it.

3623 Susan and Brian saw something in me and they really -- Susan was my band teacher and Brian was my musical theatre. They really put my nose to the grindstone and started scraping it real heavy across the pavement, but it worked. Every morning if I wanted to graduate I had to be there at 6:00, 7:00 in the morning doing all the band extracurricular activities for every grade. In the evening I would stay behind and do all the extra sound and all that for the musical theatre stuff. I understood I either did it or I didn't graduate.

3624 Boy, I didn't like them. I absolutely hated them, but I had to graduate. So I graduated.

3625 The amount of care and emotion that they were able to put in me because they saw something in me which nobody saw, absolutely nobody, not even my folks. I didn't even see it. Who would have thought I would be playing the violin. I picked it up on a bet, you know. It's just nobody saw anything in me. I was just going to fall through the cracks and he is going to go, he will get some assistance because he has got some head injuries. So okay, so case closed.

3626 They saw something in me and they were able to put some extra time and attention into me. I am just one kid. There are so many out there, the kids who don't quite fit into the norm. They are not the jocks, but they are not that good in school. They kind of don't dress all that right, but they dance to their own drummer. Some of them don't even have a drummer, just their drum.

3627 But the point is it's like they are their own people too and to deal with all those emotional sides and when I started my father was like, "KC you are not going to -- there's no such thing as music." He grew up on the system of going, listen, you go to school, you get your education, you get your degree -- if you didn't make sports then you get your degree in university and then you do what you want to do in music.

3628 Today he is upstairs. Imperial Oil just got bought out. They are trying to find out if they all have jobs, but that's their way of thinking. That's the way they were taught, is that you do one thing and that's all you do. There is no such thing as music.

3629 With kids coming out today and with such diverse ethnic things going on, I mean it's absolutely incredible. Everybody is looking at different things, seeing different opportunities and different ways of doing things. Music has also become another forefront, like sports. There is a lot of money in music for some artists and it is a different avenue of expressing yourself.

3630 With m.PLAY why I think it's so crucial is if you start that kid young -- I mean he starts in grade six or seven and all of a sudden -- I remember I started band and percussion because I had to keep my exercising going.

3631 What other options did I want to take? I couldn't take sports. You couldn't do drama because you were just like retarded -- look at me. So it's like what do you do?

3632 Kids start that way and then they will get in high school and they will take band because it's an easy option. Meanwhile, they take band a couple of times and then in grade 12 they could have a spare.

3633 All of a sudden though, there's not enough instruments. The instruments they do have, fine, there are those instruments, but they are dented and damaged from students before and so they are not staying in tune. When they don't stay in tune then you've got a little bit of extra trouble.

3634 If kids can start at grade seven and then get excited for music and see that there is like, "holy geez, look at that, if they can do that, I can do that and we can be a viable force in Canada." Why not get them excited then and so all of a sudden you have all these scholarships ready to go by the time they are in grade 12, instead of going, "I need to get an 'A' so I can get a scholarship to go to this university or that university," or "I don't want to be a doctor or a lawyer, but damn, my dad wants me to be that."

3635 If they can say, "Man, no way, I can do this because I can grab a scholarship in music," and everybody is going to be happy. Dad is going to be happy because I am making money and everybody knows that is a big thing. It's just incredible.

3636 I remember the time when I was in grade 11 and we went to Seattle. We went on a band tour. The bands in America have funding by huge corporations and everything else. Let me tell you, the equipment that they had -- I was in drama and we went there and we were competing in this big competition and the equipment that they had was absolutely nuts. I mean I know because I actually borrowed a pair of their cymbals and brought them home with me. They are absolutely nuts.

3637 The point is that when you see stuff like that before you even go and do your thing, no matter how good you are, you don't have the proper mentoring even if you are the best. Your head is not telling you you're the best because they have got something better than you.

3638 With all these mentoring programs and things like that that we can install in kids they are going to be the best. We can be the best. The whole positive attitude -- it's all positive. I quote the slogan and it's the slogan of my disc called "Dream the Unseen". You have got to dream it. It's all about positivity. Anything is possible.

3639 If you put your head above the clouds, somebody is going to hit with you a tomato. It's a given. But why keep your head with everybody else's head. You know? I mean why not reach for it? Why not go?

3640 In closing -- you know what? -- in a perfect world, I would be sitting on that council right there and what we would do is we would back up the CHUM truck, for money -- right? -- as was quoted to earlier this morning, and we would drop that one, and then we would back up the other truck full of money and we would drop that. I think we should have a -- you should give out two licences. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say that. They are probably going to hate me now. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say that. But the more diverse the better -- and I'm sure you guys know which other licence I'm going for. But this m.PLAY is so important. It is so important.

3641 I honestly don't want to see kids go through what I went through, emotionally. Because I'm lucky, I mean I had a lot of support, a lot of prayer. My mom's a musician. Thank God. So that kind of helped me through it. But I know there's a lot of kids -- music is just not in nobody's blood. They like it. But if you don't have music in your blood, as parents, why teach your kids? You know, why do it? And so many of those kids have such great potential if they can just be mentored properly and just positive thinking.

3642 That's all I have to say.

3643 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Styles. There's no question that you have achieved full recovery. You have very agile verbal and motor skills and it gives you a very unique presentation style that kept everyone's attention this morning.

3644 I also would say you certainly subscribe to the "boys must be seen and heard" motto of an earlier intervenor.

3645 Your motto "Dream the Unseen" is to, I guess, try and inspire us to open our imaginations to different ways of solving these types of problems.

3646 Can you tell me a bit more about why you think the m.PLAY initiative by CHUM would play such a key role in the development of musicians, in their younger years particularly, while they are in school?

3647 MR. STYLES: Okay. I believe, again, it's -- it's not so much about the funding. I mean everybody here is going to throw money somewhere, you know. I mean they have to. But, you know --

--- Laughter / Rires

3648 MR. STYLES: I honestly do believe with a passion what it's about is it's a whole -- and I guess I come back to the mentoring part.

3649 Do you know, I can -- I will state what I believe but, at the same time, I do realize that something like m.PLAY is so new and so far outside the norm, and you have your conservative line here, like Dave Cross sitting and gone, you know. It's so different. I mean it's almost weird. Because you are so used to, you know, a regular -- when somebody presents something like that, you know, it's just natural, it's human nature to go, "Oh, what are you doing? Come back here."

3650 But the thing is, with m.PLAY, with putting that money into the schools -- or they have quoted doing things like ultimate challenges where, once a year, having bands, like a Canadian kind of concert series, then doing like an ultimate challenge, which would have been like "Battle of the Bands", and working that way, with that, it almost inspires the kids. Throughout the year, you put the extra money (a) not only into instruments and stuff like that but you have extra money to go and do workshops, scholarships, mentoring. So the kids know, all right, listen, I'm getting an instrument, so it's going to make me want to practise because we're going to have this guy come in be it in percussion or be it in jazz or maybe a dance artist or rock or, you know, come in and chat to the kids, and he's going to inspire them, so the kids can say, "You know what? If you do it, I can do it." It's the whole motivational factor. I really thank God that we have got people -- like, even in Calgary, there's people speaking on behalf of the other stations, today, who, I tell you, without them mentoring and me and us throwing ideas back and forth and keep having each other on our back, I wouldn't be here, I just wouldn't be here. And I believe that so strong, that you need somebody to say, "Listen, now, you're doing good, and if I can do it, you can do it", and chances are -- I went through doing it this way right now. With the kids, that m.PLAY, with all that extra money, all the extra benefits they are going to have to them, they are going to be worlds ahead of me, which, I mean, I can honestly say, that's great, you know. That's absolutely incredible.

3651 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Styles.

3652 I will now go to the Commissioners and see if there's questions.

3653 Commissioner McKendry...?

3654 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: During the hearing we have heard from various applicants about the Calgary music scene and the performers that are here and so on.

3655 You are a musician here in Calgary. Can you just tell us a little bit about the Calgary music scene, from the point of view of a musician that's trying to get airplay?

3656 MR. STYLES: Well, quite honestly, I have really been discouraged. Absolutely been discouraged. With almost all of Canada. Alberta's been great, Calgary especially, because they have really been able to jump on me and help me out. If you are Country, you know, Calgary has got the whole country slogan. And it is changing. Don't get me wrong. But it's still just more widely accepted. I know a lot of great kids that are in dance acts and rock bands and music that's not quote-unquote normal -- but I guess I'm not normal, so I don't know what you would call it -- you know, for different genres, and there's not enough support here for them to even try and get the radio play.

3657 I got radio play with the major station here, Power 107, and none of the music, though, appeals to their format, which I mean is understandable. It's business. But without that drive, without that commercial drive for me as an artist, you know, it's almost like you have got to look out for yourself, too. I mean I'm almost saying, "Well, forget them. If I can't get it, then what's going to happen?" The market here, we have such an underground market, and they are slowly starting to pop their heads out because the singing is not all that terrible. And with a little bit extra support and all that, I tell you, we are going to have people like Shanias and, you know, like KC Styles, right out of Calgary, and Calgary is going to blow. We are going to have to have Deline Dions. We are going to do all that. And people are going to really realize that Canada, not just Calgary -- well, especially Calgary because we are starting m.PLAY in Calgary. It's almost me being proposed to because Calgary is like the number one forefront in Canada in my head -- maybe there's different opinions. But the point is I mean we have got all the innovation, we have got everything else and, all of a sudden, we could have m.PLAY. You know. And on top of that, m.PLAY is such a friendly program.

3658 So you've got 4.2 million being kicked in by CHUM. But what about all the corporate sponsors? I know there's tons of corporate sponsors who get on board, stuff like the CPO and stuff like Concerts for Charity, Kids' Stuff, the United Ways. Like all these people get on board to help other people out. This is helping the betterment of our community if they are going to hop on. So that 4.2 could be generating like 20 billion. I have to take my 10 per cent cut but it's -- you know.

--- Laughter / Rires

3659 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Thanks very much.

3660 MR. STYLES: No problem.

3661 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Styles, for an interesting intervention.

3662 MR. STYLES: No problem.

3663 Anything else?

3664 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, if we do stay in town a little longer, are you playing at some club so we can sample your talent?

3665 MR. STYLES: Well, you know what? No. But I happened to bring a CD for you.

--- Laughter / Rires

3666 THE CHAIRPERSON: The Hearing Secretary may accept it, but I will leave it to his judgment.

3667 MR. STYLES: Right. It's not a bribe or anything. Just remember that.

--- Laughter / Rires

3668 MR. STYLES: The hundred dollar bill strapped to it, that's the bribe.

--- Laughter / Rires

3669 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Styles.

3670 Mr. Secretary...?

3671 MR. BURNSIDE: I would like to now call TGS Properties. Mr. Hogg.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

3672 MR. HOGG: Good morning. My name is Ian Hogg. I'm President and Chief Operating Officer of TGS Properties and another company called Destination Resorts.

3673 That is a tough act to follow, I must say. The radio term, I think, is "segue", and I didn't find one that was easy.

3674 I'm here intervening in support of the application by Craig Broadcasting and their partners, Harvard Development Corporation.

3675 I come wearing a couple of hats.

3676 I am a transplanted eastern Canadian, now western Canadian, business person, which I think is one of the reasons that I am here today. I would be hesitant in telling you that I moved here from Ottawa some two and a half years ago, but I will let that cat out of the bag. I keep it quiet in most areas. But I think that it's important because when you have lived in other parts of the country, I think it's important that we, as western Canadians -- and maybe those of us who are new western Canadians -- really start to learn and understand the importance of western Canadian-based.

3677 The Craig and the Harvard Development proposal is a true western Canadian-based opportunity.

3678 My company TSG Properties is some just about four years old, and we are also western Canadian-based. We started in 1996, in Saskatoon. We are now based in Calgary. We formed a joint venture earlier this year, and I will just give you a little bit of the growth and the confidence that I have in the proponent group.

3679 We now have a company called TGS Harvard Management. As a small company from meagre beginnings in Saskatoon in 1996, TGS Harvard Management Services is now the third largest property management company western Canadian based. That kind of growth can be achieved an it is driven in western Canada.

3680 We made a decision corporately that western Canada was the economy of this country that we felt most comfortable with and was dynamic and growing. I think that it is important that relationships are understood. The ability to find quality partners in western Canada is sometimes a challenge because the eastern influences tend to come back at us. But with dealing with Harvard and with the Hill family, who are multigenerational western Canadians, and the impact that they have had on western Canada, on Saskatchewan and Alberta, we feel very, very fortunate to be able to form joint ventures and move forward.

3681 As a business person in Alberta, I have watched the A-Channels in both Edmonton and Calgary, and our company, which I operate, owns property in both markets. I think that what has been achieved is admirable I think: the innovation, the ability to attract different audiences.

3682 What I do notice now -- and we acquired a company recently called "Destination Resorts". We now control I believe the largest development project in western Canada based in Canmore -- is that my demographic market, where as a vendor looking to tap that market and get my message out, my advertising out, is less well served in Calgary and in this part of the world than it is in, say, Ottawa or Toronto where I grew up. I think that is important that that 25 to 55 demographic is, interestingly enough, somewhat left to its own devices in this radio market.

3683 I think that it is better served in the television market, in the print media, but I do believe it has been relatively underserviced in this Calgary market. I think that it is important that the western Canadian capability is looked at and is not taken lightly in this endeavour.

3684 The Calgary market, from the work that I have done, taking a quick look at the broadcasting, is relatively dominated by three or four parties, and it may be time in the radio market to broaden that base a little bit. We felt that we were able to start a company and grow it, and our company is in the top 50 fastest growing companies ranked by Profit Magazine this year as a new and emerging company.

3685 I will tell you, being in the real estate business and being based in western Canada, that is a challenge. The ".coms" ahead of us are great companies, but we tend to run in a little different fashion. I think the ability to grow and to drive it from a western Canadian base is critical.

3686 I think that we are different. I have learned since I have moved here -- and I am going to find out in four weeks what it is going to be like to live in a city where the election may be decided by the time it hits Sault Ste. Marie, and I'm not sure that I'm going to like that evening -- that we have to create more self-sufficiency in all markets, particularly in those markets that touch so many people.

3687 There is no doubt that the innovation, the ability of the proponent group, of the Craig group, can stand on its own in any marketplace. This is a unique marketplace. Calgary is a great city. It is innovative. You know, for a province that is less than 100 years old, there is a huge amount of cultural capability. There is a huge amount of growth potential.

3688 I would really like you to understand that the reason I am here today is to let you know a little bit about how we feel and how a business person feels about the corporate entities and the individuals. Businesses are wonderful. It's the people that you should be dealing and looking at. Between the Hills and the Craigs, I think that they have left a mark and will continue to leave a greater mark on western Canada.

3689 That is really what I came to tell you. It's a business relationship. I will tell you that up front. But we don't generally get in bed and do joint ventures and get involved with people that we don't feel extremely strongly about.

3690 I would be pleased to answer any questions.

3691 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Hogg, for your remarks on the Craig and Harvard application this morning.

3692 They propose a hot adult contemporary format. Do you feel that is a needed welcome format for the Calgary marketplace?

3693 MR. HOGG: I would answer that in two ways. One is, as a listener, yes, I don't think it's utilized. I could lead you to some people who provide that service in other markets that I am familiar with.

3694 But, again, the advertising component and trying to get to the demographic market, I do believe that that market is left a little bit unserviced here, and I am looking more at how I would spend my marketing and advertising dollars as well. I think you are concerned with that and we should all be concerned with that. From a support level, I heard Mr. Crowfoot talk about the ability to support ongoing these operations.

3695 So, yes, I really do see it and I think I see it maybe more, because I have been here a shorter period of time, that I notice a differential as a listener, but then also when I look at my marketing dollars and how they would be spent.

3696 THE CHAIRPERSON: Craig also proposes to provide a comprehensive review and a focus on Calgary and Alberta stories, you know, along with national and international, but the focus will be Calgary and Alberta stories based upon your knowledge of their abilities to do the same through other media and other broadcasting undertakings that they own.

3697 Do you feel comfortable that they will do as good or better a job than the marketplace is currently enjoying?

3698 MR. HOGG: Absolutely. I come back to the A-Channels in both Edmonton and Calgary. I think that they have been able to tap that. It is local. It is locally generated.

3699 We are getting caught in a bit of a conundrum, I think, in parts of the country where less local and more national feed is happening, whether it be our national broadcast or others, where things are being generated in other places, and it is getting more difficult to get the local aspect of it. So I think that --

3700 One of the reasons is, I live outside of Calgary and I do not get the A-Channel. I have to get it when I'm in town and when I'm at my office. When you live in the mountains you are tied to a cable feed and you are restricted as to what you can receive, things that you miss. Really the local ability to cover what is going on in Calgary is relatively limited in the television media and also in the radio media from time to time. So I think that, given the track record, what I have seen on A-Channel in both centres in Alberta, I have absolute confidence that they can meet the challenge.

3701 THE CHAIRPERSON: You talked earlier about the pioneering heritage of both of these organizations, do you think it is important that broadcasting undertakings have ownership that resides in the area that they serve? I am saying that broadly. I mean like in the province, not close to any specific centre.

3702 MR. HOGG: I do.

3703 I don't believe that the private ownership can own the entire market, but I think that there needs to probably be more of that participation. As you broaden the number of operators, that there is a need to look to that.

3704 I think that if you look at the history of this country in broadcasting and in all of the media forms, it all started as smaller groups. I had a family who was in the newspaper business who couldn't stay as independents. I think that it is important that the independent spirit come back in to the media. We have had a tendency to decentralize.

3705 We are a geographically diverse country. We have different aspects, different ways of looking at things. With all due respect to the town, I grew up in Toronto, as we refer to it now, out here, "The Big Smoke". It is an economic generator but it is not the only economic generator, not the only generator of music, of writing, of other things. I think that it is critical that there is some ownership, some local ownership somewhere on the dial. I think that that is one of the reasons I feel quite strongly about this proposal.

3706 THE CHAIRPERSON: This is my last question. I am not sure if some of the other Commissioners have any.

3707 So just local -- or maybe I will take it closer to where it really is, it is a regional-type ownership, do you feel that regional ownership in this marketplace could provide a better service than a service provided by nationally-owned firms, like Toronto-owned firms versus western Canadian-owned firms?

3708 MR. HOGG: I think, yes; the answer is yes. I think that the market is relatively dominated now by non-local and that there is room now. And that as the market expands, as this region expands, there should be room made for more local geographic representation.

3709 You know, I jokingly said to somebody before they started this morning, I heard a number the other day that said that there are almost $750,000 people in Alberta, which is a province of about 3.5 million, born in Saskatchewan. I think that maybe the Saskatchewan-Alberta and Manitoba-Saskatchewan- Alberta boundaries have disappeared to become more western Canadian, but I feel that there is a lack of representation of that, of that geographic base representing the ownership right now. I think you have the opportunity to probably kickstart that.

3710 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Hogg.

3711 I will now turn you over to Commissioner Langford.

3712 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you.

3713 I was interested in the kind of double nature of your message to us today, because I got two things out of it -- a lot more, but two themes I found interesting.

3714 One was your obvious strong support for a regional or local, whatever you want to call it, player to be given a chance to bring that flavour, and that is a very clear message.

3715 But the underlying message is that an outsider like you can come to a community like this and add something as well, add some enthusiasm and add some value. I wonder if you can give us some pointers on how to balance it.

3716 We have some outsiders from as far away as Newfoundland who want to come here, and other places, and add some value to the community, as you have done. Then we have some local people who say "We are bringing a sensitivity" and all the things you mentioned.

3717 Where do we choose? I mean, what's best? Should we have kept you out and let a local guy do your property development or -- if we were the Property Development Regulatory Board should we have said no to you? It seems to me to be a tough call because you represent the best of both those worlds, if I may pat you on the shoulder.

3718 MR. HOGG: Thank you.

3719 THE CHAIRPERSON: Where do we go on that? Do you have any thoughts on that?

3720 MR. HOGG: I think it is a difficult decision. You know, I'm in a little bit of trouble here today, I reacquainted myself with somebody I grew up with who is one of the other proponents which makes this incredibly difficult, but I won't change the script I had prepared.

3721 I am transplanted. I think the simple answer is, there have been people in my business -- and I will bring it back to my business -- who have tried to run western Canadian property companies from outside of western Canada. That, certainly from my point of view, would have been better for my air miles, my family might have been less disrupted, but not as good for business.

3722 When I was asked to take over as president of this company, it was obvious that that was not going to be something that was going to be done from my home in Ottawa. So I had to make a decision. A commitment to the growing of the business was that I picked up and relocated some 2,500 kilometres to Alberta.

3723 So I think that while the community and the area opens its arms in a truly unique fashion to people from elsewhere, they do tend to look at the postal code on your driver's licence. I think that is the important thing. It is not where you were born or where you have lived or where you have grown up, it is where are you prepared to -- are you prepared to commit to that area today.

3724 I find a very different approach in Calgary, in Alberta, to business and other things. It is a more entrepreneurial spirit. But I think that the time for those of us who are in other parts of the country dictating business practice and business growth to this area are over.

3725 This city now contains the second largest number of head offices in Canada. It is ahead of Vancouver, it is ahead of Montreal, it is only following Toronto. Those kinds of things have happened because people have figured out that if you are going to really grow a business here you had better be here.

3726 To be honest, I think Ottawa is one of the greatest cities in the world, but I made my decision where the business growth was going to be and I picked up and got here. I'm not doing it by airplane.

3727 So that is really how I would come at it: I think if you are committed to it you should be here.

3728 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, the Craigs, of course -- to use them as an example since you are a supporter -- have recently been granted an application to do business in Vancouver with their multipoint distribution system wireless cable and so if that test were applied to them they might feel a little uneasy going from their home base into Vancouver.

3729 But I hear what you are saying, the sense of --

3730 MR. HOGG: I think --

3731 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: -- the sense of actually locating yourself is what you find to be so important.

3732 MR. HOGG: Absolutely. But I also think that there is a line that has been drawn in this country and it is an electoral line and, that is, as I have said earlier, when the election is over by the time it gets to Sault Ste. Marie then those of us west of there have a little different job on our hands from time to time.

3733 I would suggest that it is easier to deal -- and I do deal in B.C. a little bit, we have an operation in the interior -- that it is different coming from Calgary to Vancouver or Kelowna than it is getting on a plane from area code 416 or 905, substantially different.

3734 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much.

3735 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Hogg, we have no more questions for you.

3736 Thank you for appearing.

3737 MR. HOGG: Thank you.

3738 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, might it be an appropriate time to break for lunch?

3739 MR. BURNSIDE: Would you like an hour and-a-half?

3740 We will reconvene at -- I can't do the math -- a quarter to 2:00.

3741 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So we will resume at 1:45.

3742 Thank you, Mr. Secretary.

--- Upon recessing at 1215 / Suspension à 1215

--- Upon resuming at 1345 / Reprise à 1345

3743 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. We will now call the Calgary public hearing back to order.

3744 Mr. Secretary.

3745 MR. BURNSIDE: Before I call the next Intervenor, Mr. Chair, I would like to make one change to the agenda.

3746 This morning I had announced that -- uh-oh, I scratched the name out -- Gloria -- Intervenor No. 18, which is Gloria McRae, had withdrawn. She now wants to be put back on the agenda and so she will be scheduled as No. 34, or at the end of the list.

3747 Nos. 5 and 6, which are the next two interventions to be heard, are reversing their order, so I will now call Intervenor No. 6, Rancor Development Inc., Ron Renaud.

--- Pause / Pause

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

3748 MR. RENAUD: Thank you.

3749 My name is Ron Renaud, and I own a development company, a retail real estate development company in Calgary that was found in 1984. I have been a resident of Calgary for more years that I care to remember.

3750 I have known Mr. Paul Hill and Harvard Developments -- I have known Paul personally for over 10 years and have had dealings with his company, Harvard Developments, for the last five. Over that period of time my company has developed about $100 million worth of retail shopping centres in Calgary in the local marketplace.

3751 Harvard Developments has been a terrific business partner over that period of time. They have been very responsive to the local market because the types of properties that I build or develop are basically retail properties dealing with the same people who listen to radio stations and have the same kinds of needs.

3752 Paul's company, Harvard Developments and Craig I think will bring to this marketplace a very unique different voice that isn't really being heard right now. I think over the period that I have been in Calgary I have noticed a sameness in the radio stations that are here and there is definitely a need for a local voice.

3753 Harvard has been, with my company, a very strong, active supporter of a number of community events. They are on the ground and local. In real estate that is very important and I'm sure it is as important in the broadcast industry.

3754 So really, in a nutshell, they have been a terrific partner. I think they would be a plus to the broadcast industry here in Calgary.

3755 I am available for any questions.

3756 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Renaud.

3757 I will ask Commissioner Langford if he has any questions.

3758 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, it is pretty clear we are not putting you in the undecided category, but I wouldn't mind asking you just a couple of questions, kind of two sides of your head, if I can.

3759 As a listener -- and this is a pretty unscientific approach, we both agree to that -- but what is missing in what you are hearing on the radio in Calgary?

3760 MR. RENAUD: Personally I think I'm sort of toward the last part of the baby boomers, that curve -- I don't want to admit it, but I am -- and I noticed that the radio stations here really cater to a much younger base.

3761 In my travels across Canada, if I were to turn on a radio station, most of the ones we have in Calgary sound like the ones in Vancouver, sound a lot like the ones in Toronto, and there isn't really a group that hits my demographic.

3762 In this particular city, I know our income levels are about 21 per cent higher, the age bracket in this city is of that -- I would say our average age here is probably mid-30s, late-30s, and there really isn't a station that I could listen to in this city that addresses my needs or the needs of my demographic.

3763 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I don't want to alarm you, but you are getting precariously close to being a CBC listener. You know that.

3764 MR. RENAUD: Yes, I know that. It's frightening, isn't it.

--- Laughter / Rires

3765 MR. RENAUD: No, I'm just kidding.

3766 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: On the business side, I mean we have a lot of business people here. We discussed earlier, I asked Mr. Hogg earlier, about the kind of inputting talent and promoting local talent and there seems to be pretty strong arguments for both.

3767 Where do you come down on that type of a question?

3768 MR. RENAUD: Well, I would think a local voice needs to be heard and I don't think it is being heard now, other than maybe A-Channel, which is on the television side.

3769 On the radio side there isn't anything that would address our local business community, for example. I don't hear much -- you don't hear much about the oil patch on the radio, you don't hear much about other business concerns that are local. You do on a national level, but not on a local level.

3770 I think being local they have an ability to react much more quickly than someone who is headquartered either in Vancouver or Toronto or Montreal.

3771 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Those are my questions.

3772 Thank you very, very much.

3773 MR. RENAUD: Okay.

3774 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Renaud.

3775 Those are all our questions.

3776 Mr. Secretary.

3777 MR. BURNSIDE: I would now like to call Colin Jackson, representing the Calgary Performing Arts Centre.

--- Pause / Pause

3778 MR. BURNSIDE: Mr. Jackson.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

3779 MR. JACKSON: Commissioners, I would like you to look upon me as colour commentator, I am the singer/dancer who is going to give you a bit of a break and then you can go back to the very heavy policy-making progress.

3780 THE CHAIRPERSON: We had one this morning and I'm glad we have another this afternoon.

3781 MR. JACKSON: Did you? Another one.

3782 Well, I would like to speak to you on behalf of the Craig Harvard proposal, but to tell you why I am speaking in favour of it I will need to talk a little bit about us and who we are.

3783 So enough of them, let's talk about me.

3784 We are the Calgary Performing Arts Centre and we are the largest performing arts centre west of the National Arts Centre, which is the most like organization to us in Canada, the National Arts Centre and Place des Arts to an extent.

3785 This is a category of organization of which there are many in the States and a growing number, not yet so many in Canada. The distinction between what we are and a Roy Thompson Hall or a Manitoba Centennial Centre is that we operate a multi-venue facility, in our case four theatres, a concert hall, shops, rehearsal halls, offices and so on.

3786 We are a landlord that maintain a civic facility. That facility, though, is a place where people can produce and create, as well as present, the shops, the offices and so on.

3787 We are also a presenter in our own right, so we have a music series and other series. We also rent to resident companies of which we have five, and to various run-off or community-based events. So there are about 1,400 productions in a year and if you were to come you may be seeing something we have put on, a resident company has put on, a community group has put on, somebody from outside.

3788 For example, if you were to come on Saturday you would have your choice of two plays, a cabaret, the filipino version of the Back Street Boys, which is the one I am going to go to because I have a 12-year old daughter -- and what else, a blues, an American blues singer that we are presenting. So multiple presentation is part of what we are.

3789 We are also an organization, and this is where it goes to the American model, that is expected to be part of focusing the city's ambition in being an ever more creative place, a place that is an incubator for creativity. We do this in relationships and partnerships with various other organizations, the Glenbow Museum, the university and so on.

3790 We can go for quite a long time on all of that, but I won't take you there now because it's not the point of this presentation.

3791 The point of this presentation is why were we speaking in favour of Craig? Well, two reasons: One of them is we have had a very positive experience with A-Channel. I personally had a very positive experience with Craig Broadcasting in Manitoba where, prior to coming here, I had founded and built a theatre company. The history, institutionally and personally, has been a good one. They have kept their promises and they have done their job.

3792 The other reason is when they came to ask for our support we started talking about the kinds of things that if they got the licence and if they chose to make us one of the beneficiaries of the fund to it what would that relationship be; what would we do together.

3793 We started talking about our singer/songwriter series. This is in a way the no-brainer. This is where we present regional singer/songwriters whose careers are growing and we assist them in that development in the context of national and international singer/songwriters. The link is pretty obvious between a radio station and that.

3794 We started chatting about a different project and that's when I got sold on them or resold on them because what happened is they got excited about this project, so I am going to tell you about it. I think it illustrates indirectly the kind of broader thinking that they appear to be bringing to this licence and how they would connect it to the community if they were to get it.

3795 This is a project called Playwrights Web. We originated it two years ago. In this project we found a partner theatre company in Manhattan and the challenge we gave them was find us grade eight classes that want to participate over six months with grade eight classes in Calgary.

3796 The challenge to the classes was that they would use the other class as the primary resource in order that they would write a play about the life of a 14-year old in the other city. The first thing the kids did was exchange clue boxes, Jan Arden CDs, a cowboy hat and various other things coming the other way from New York.

3797 Then they went into journaling, a day in the life, a week in my life and photographs of their families and that kind of thing. Then they went into e-mail exchanges, chatting back and forth, learning more about each other.

3798 The playwrights are the only ones who actually travelled, our playwright to New York and theirs to us. The playwright's job was to try and push the kids in terms of their understanding of language and how it worked and works differently in two different places. It was to help them realize what they were making into a presentable form. It was to help them think about who they were and who the other is and what otherness is because to write this play they would have to understand the similarities but also the differences between being a 14-year old in the two different cities.

3799 The whole thing came to a conclusion in April, six months later, when our kids and theirs each went into video conference suites, actually web exchange or web conference suites and spent a half day in conversation and showing each other what they had made. So our kids played back, performed back the New York script to the New York kids and vice versa.

3800 There was a bonus in this because it so happened that the classes of American kids were on 117th Street in Spanish Harlem, so they were 70 per cent Hispanic Americans and 30 per cent African American. Our kids were mostly European origin. Very quickly in the process they got into -- the American kids, into a very heavy, angry set of exchanges with our kids about how racist our kids were.

3801 Our kids had no idea what they were talking about. Being good Canadian boys and girls they were just not part of that American conversation about race as a defining issue and this went on for a while until eventually a Canadian Asian youth in our class lost his temper on this, fired off a furious e-mail in which he said that he had never been made to feel separate and in some way separated from the rest of the group and now he was feeling those things and he didn't like it. And, by the way, he had seen a photograph of their class and he noticed that there were no white kids in their class.

3802 So suddenly we had 14-year olds dealing with fundamental, important issues through this exchange project, which did use media, but in an indirect way.

3803 Last year we conducted the same project with Singapore, trying it across a greater distance. This year it will be with Quebec, the distance there being language, and with Tsuu T'ina Reserve, the distance there being very little in miles and a great deal in other ways.

3804 It's a long way of coming back to saying when I started telling the Craig people about this project they got very excited. Their eyes were sparkling and they were really engaged with how they as a forward looking broadcaster might become a sponsor and a provider perhaps even of other services to a project of this sort.

3805 I thought if this is where they are thinking, then I would like to be there with them and that is why I am here in front of you. I said at the beginning I would be a colour commentator only. Five minutes is long enough for colour commentary, so thank you very much for your time and I'm gone.

3806 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your enthusiastic presentation on that fascinating project. My question that I had prepared for you dealt with, I guess to quote from your letter, that the company Craig is a company which not only lives up to the letter of its promise of performance, but exceeds the promise with enthusiasm and panache. I was going to ask you to give an example of some of the types of things you have worked together with them on.

3807 MR. JACKSON: Surely. The best example is A-Channel and how it is behaving in this city since it opened about two years ago. They promised that they would be paying particular attention and enthusiastic attention to what is being made and shown and created locally and they have done that.

3808 Their crews are there when a play or a piece of music is presented. They are there also when some of the other activities occur, a celebration outdoors, a fundraiser.

3809 When I say they are there, it is not just lip service there. They are there as enthusiasts who want to make a package out of what they are seeing. They are not simply recording it to fill the air time. They are working to make it something that will hold the interest of the viewer and, depending upon what it is, bring the viewer to come and see it or get engaged with it. There is an enthusiasm. It's a genuine energy that I am experiencing from the way they are relating to us and to others in the arts and culture.

3810 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

3811 Thank you very much, Mr. Jackson.

3812 MR. JACKSON: My pleasure.

3813 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary.

3814 MR. BURNSIDE: I have just been informed, Mr. Chair, that the next intervenor is on his way over, so we will pass over him and go to Intervenor No. 8 and then come back to No. 7 if the gentleman arrives.

3815 I would like to call Mr. Paul Kuster please.

3816 Mr. Kuster doesn't appear to be here right now, so I will call the next intervenor. Evan Adams.

3817 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, Mr. Adams.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

3818 MR. ADAMS: Good afternoon. Before I give my intervention on behalf of Gary Farmer's application I would like to introduce myself.

3819 My name is Evan Adams. I am a Cosalish writer and actor. I'm a third-year medical student at the University of Calgary. I'm a 15-year member of the Association of Canadian Radio and Television Artists, ACTRA, and a 12-year member of the Canadian Actors Equity Association. I'm a past advisory committee member and assessor for the Canada Council Dance Program and a member of the Alberta Medical Association and Canadian Medical Association.

3820 I am a strong supporter of radio as an essential means of communication within and between native communities. I appreciate the positive role currently played by native radio broadcasters in many nations across Canada. These primarily rural -- and this is important -- primarily rural and northern broadcasters provide an irreplaceable voice for many First Nations peoples living in relative isolation. Yet one-third to one-half -- and this is from the Prime Minister's office; it's closer to one-half -- one-third to one-half of all aboriginal Canadians live in urban centres where native radio is often completely unavailable. One-half of our band lists are mixed-race people, many of whom do not live on reserve but desire some linkage to their heritage.

3821 More and more aboriginal people, myself included, leave our reserves, our homelands, our cultures, our languages, and everything we know, in pursuit of the dominant cultures' mandates. We move south to urban centres in pursuit of work and educational opportunities.

3822 I have spent seven years in post-secondary training, with three more to go, in order to achieve my goal of being a practising physician.

3823 My point in this is simple: I moved south many years ago. My English is much better; my own language is much worse.

3824 The urban aboriginal person has few resources in support of their desire to cross over into fuller participation in the dominant culture.

3825 Thus far, most of the cultural initiatives for aboriginal peoples have centered on rural areas.

3826 Incidentally, 90 per cent of health dollars are spent on reserve for aboriginal people and not for off-reserve aboriginal people, and this is a trend that follows through in many areas of government support.

3827 Basically, the aboriginal person has been categorized, mistakenly, as a rural person.

3828 The urban aboriginal is alive and well and crossing over into the mainstream. In pursuit of our studies and work, we move south and intra-urban. We stop hearing our languages. We are away from the voices of our elders. We stop living inside of our vivid heritage. I do not see aboriginal faces in my medical school. I do not hear aboriginal voices. Compared to the north, the urban Indian is culturally bereft.

3829 I grew up speaking English and French in an officially bilingual country. I completely understand and feel the need for protection of the vitality of "la Francophonie" in predominantly English-speaking Canada. I draw that parallel today. An anglophone French Canada would expect to hear English language and culture somewhere in their day-to-day life. Ditto a francophone in English Canada. I am not unreasonable in my desire to hear even an echo of my people in my day-to-day life. Urban aboriginal radio programming would go a long way to this end.

3830 Recently, I cut pictures out of a Wal-Mart flier because inside was an aboriginal woman modelling clothes. She wasn't wearing beads and feathers, she wasn't derelict, nor a depiction of the media-popular "Indian social problem". She seemed an everyday, nice, ordinary person of obvious aboriginal descent. It was my reaction to this image that galvanized me to appear here today. I am a perfectly ordinary aboriginal person living in a city and I never see images of contemporary aboriginal life -- at least, I see it so seldom that when I do see it, I feel amazement. This young woman now hangs on my bathroom door as concrete proof of my existence.

3831 ACTRA, the Association of Canadian Television and Radio Artists, recently released their annual report, stating that people of colour represented less than 2 per cent of the roles in radio and television last year -- a decline even from the previous year -- yet aboriginal people themselves are approximately 3 per cent of the Canadian population. Clearly, Canadian radio and television are failing miserably to represent the cultural diversity, current demographics and the multicultural, pluralistic society that makes Canada so great.

3832 No aboriginal radio is readily available in this city. Aboriginal representation is once again absent in this field. I still do not hear aboriginal voices.

3833 Gary Farmer has been instrumental in the launching of Aboriginal People's Television Network last year. APTN brings aboriginal cultural television programming to mainstream and aboriginal audiences.

3834 Gary Farmer has a long, unwavering history of dedicated service to the aboriginal community. He continues to break ground and has been unquestionably the leader in aboriginal media.

3835 Gary Farmer's application for Aboriginal Voices Radio shows foresight and attempts to fulfil a dire need. The need for native radio is as great, if not greater, for aboriginal people living in the midst of these multicultural cauldrons.

3836 The Aboriginal Voices Radio service has committed to providing a voice for urban aboriginal people and to supporting connections between and more rural native communities. They are committed to supporting artists, producers and performers. They are committed to encouraging enterprise, industry and innovation. They are committed to including diverse voices, especially the energy of youth and the wisdom of elders. And I am committed to supporting their licensing.

3837 Thank you for allowing me time to speak on their behalf.

3838 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Adams, for your presentation.

3839 Earlier in the process, there was some representations made by others that perhaps Toronto programming in Calgary might not be as effective as it could be because of the time zone differences and the smaller amount of local input.

3840 Do you have any thoughts on that?

3841 MR. ADAMS: I think that any radio programming that's going to try and be important to all urban peoples needs to have a wider base. I think it's possible to have regional programming and further-reaching programming as well.

3842 I am not from the Calgary area. My people are from British Columbia. I have come here to study. Most of the urban aboriginal people you will find in any of the cities will not be from the nations that are close by, so I don't see that programming from other nations is a problem. In fact, I think it should be welcomed.

3843 Many of us work at national levels for our peoples. Many of us need to have experiences and sensitivity to indigenous peoples who are not from our bands and our families. I don't see how programming from other places is going to be a detriment. In fact, I think it's going to be beneficial.

3844 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Adams. There's no further questions.

3845 MR. ADAMS: Thanks.

3846 THE CHAIRPERSON: I apologize. We do have a few more for you, perhaps.

3847 Commissioner Cram...?

3848 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I only wanted to say I wish you success in your medical career. I think you have already started your signature looks exactly like any other doctor's signature looks.

--- Laughter / Rires

3849 MR. ADAMS: Thank you.

3850 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Adams.

3851 MR. ADAMS: Thanks.

3852 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary...?

3853 MR. BURNSIDE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3854 As I said earlier, we will backtrack a little bit and we will call Intervention No. 7, Richard Agecoutay, who is representing the Banff Centre for the Arts, the Aboriginal Arts Program.

3855 You may proceed when you are ready.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

3856 MR. AGECOUTAY: Greetings and thanks for allowing me to speak on behalf of the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network.

3857 My name is Richard Agecoutay. I'm a Soto Assiniboine Cree, originally from southern Saskatchewan. I have been living in Alberta now for about seven and a half years.

3858 My background is in the cultural industries. I spent a number of years in radio and television and theatre. I last worked in Calgary at the A-Channel, as a news cameraman, an editor and associate producer. I know very well there are challenges of being an aboriginal person working in mainstream television industry and radio.

3859 I'm here to address and support the application by the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network on two levels: first, personally; and, secondly, as the program production co-ordinator for the Aboriginal Arts Program at the Banff Centre.

3860 Aboriginal peoples throughout the Americas have always had a strong tradition regarding the spoken word. Our oral traditions have enabled us to survive and continue to survive in an ever-changing political, social and spiritual environment. The sacred stories of our ancestors were first passed down by word of mouth. These stories have woven a strong and vibrant fabric that sustains us in our endeavours to persevere as a unique people with unique cultures.

3861 It is only logical that we, as aboriginal peoples here in Canada, have an entity such as the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network that supports our voice using the technology of radio.

3862 Not only would the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network provide this with an opportunity to latch onto the remaining cultural vestiges of our ancestral cultures, but as well it will bridge the traditional with the contemporary.

3863 Our contemporary perspectives will be reflected in the programming schedule by AVRN in areas such as: news, talk radio, politics, contemporary culture and entertainment.

3864 AVNR will also provide a continuum for our traditional languages by providing an opportunity for the preservation and dissemination of these languages on the airwaves throughout Canada. These traditional elements will be parallaxed with new and fresh works by writers, poets, playwrights, journalists and storytellers alike.

3865 Most immediate, the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network will impact the wealth of our aboriginal recording artists throughout Turtle Island. No longer will our artists be marginalized by the mainstream commercial attitudes of today's radio stations. The Aboriginal Voices Radio Network will lend validity to so many artists that toil away in obscurity. By supporting and giving airplay to these artists, AVRN will allow our collective spirit to take flight and soar freely.

3866 Secondly, as a worker in the cultural industry -- I just have to go through my notes -- we are happy that AVRN will be allowing an opportunity for our cultural workers, aboriginal cultural workers, to work within this industry.

3867 As you know, aside from relevant programming, AVRN will provide employment, and this will aid in the area of community economic development within our society. As you already know, the cultural industries in mainstream Canada are responsible for many employment opportunities as well as huge economic spinoffs. Areas such as television and film, for instance, provide thousands of jobs and many, many millions of dollars that stimulate the Canadian economy. Yet within these industries again we are grossly under-represented.

3868 Having a national aboriginal radio network would be an early step in the right direction addressing these inequalities. Not only will it provide jobs but it will stimulate the creation of new works and offer a platform for artists to share their work. AVNR will also provide an avenue to market these new cultural works.

3869 At the Aboriginal Arts Program at the Banff Centre, we have an aboriginal dance program, a screenwriting program, aboriginal women's voices program, a curatorial program. All these programs will fit nicely into content for the Aboriginal Voices Radio Network.

3870 We toil hard, many hours at the Banff Centre. We are understaffed, as many aboriginal institutions across Canada are. We are fighting for the voice of our people. Our culture is strong. We are looking to continue to see our voices being shared and to build communities across Canada. This is done through the arts. The arts is one of the most powerful places where our people can work and pass on our ideas about our culture and to continue to pass on these so our future children can have pride and become an aboriginal person.

3871 With that, I am proud and happy to support AVRN, on a personal level as well as from the Aboriginal Arts Program at the Banff Centre.

3872 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Agecoutay.

3873 Commissioner Langford, do you have questions?

3874 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thanks very much.

3875 Just a couple of questions, and it may be on an area of this application you are not familiar with, and if it is, well, you're not.

3876 Were you here this morning when we heard from a Mr. Bert Crowfoot who was opposing this application?

3877 MR. AGECOUTAY: I was in transit, but I have been briefed by Bert Crowfoot --

3878 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You have been briefed.

3879 He went on in some detail and I can't hope to put it all in one caption, but I think, trying as hard as I could to be fair, to categorize what he had to say it was something like this, that he saw the need for such an application being granted in Calgary for a voice for the aboriginal people on the radio in Calgary but thought that, at this particular time, the application was premature, that it was underfunded and would, in a sense, be really not a local voice but a repeat of the Toronto station, which in fact didn't yet exist: it has been licensed, but hadn't got it up and running.

3880 I think what he was saying was that there are some good, strong local voices here already, that the time would come for an application such as Mr. Farmer's but the time was not now.

3881 Do you have any views on that intervention?

3882 MR. AGECOUTAY: Well, I'm not about to begin to speak Bert Crowfoot's mind, but in my own personal view, any voice of aboriginal people, wherever it comes from is important.

3883 We currently are working on a streaming project at the Banff Centre for aboriginal people. I currently listen to American Indian radio on satellite. That is so far removed from the area of Banff, yet I am drawn to listen to it because any news in Indian country is news to anyone throughout Turtle Island.

3884 Yes, in this region there are people that can represent the Alberta region, but the national network will just offer an avenue for those people to tap into, to share the resources that are coming out of the national network, as well as develop regional programming. Radio is a medium that is quite cheap and accessible for our people to access.

3885 What we are trying to do at the Aboriginal Arts Program at the Banff Centre is to develop audiostreaming for our people because most band offices now -- well, most homes -- not most homes but most band offices have the capability of streaming audio and they can access and develop their own radio programming on the Internet. I know the CRTC is not licensing the Internet. That is one of the reasons why we are going that route because we do things with artists and artists have a different mindset and think outside of the box. I know that term is overused.

3886 On a personal level, I feel that any aboriginal news or music coming from anywhere is definitely -- it can have a place alongside of regional.

3887 I will go back to the Eros example. They play artists from all over the world, Buffy Sainte-Marie, Sadie Buck. Sadie Buck has cut a CD at our programming and I hear it played by American stations. Our artistic groups are so small and marginalized outside of the mainstream media that we tend to play what is recognizable all across Turtle Island, all the new bands that are coming up, all the old established artists are being played on almost every major aboriginal radio network in the States and local ones in Canada.

3888 I don't see a national network being a threat to the local programming because it will only offer, hopefully, more resources, but at least an avenue for local people to get their voice out onto a national network. Because we come from such many diverse areas, it is important to hear social, economic, political and spiritual issues that are happening throughout the country. That way we can share and it develops our community. It offers us a platform to understand the reality of our brothers and sisters throughout Turtle Island.

3889 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thanks very much.

3890 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Agecoutay. Those are all our questions.

3891 MR. AGECOUTAY: Okay.

3892 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary.

3893 MR. BURNSIDE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3894 The next intervenor on the list, I have just been informed, No. 10, Hipstar Productions, will not be available until tomorrow.

3895 Interventions Nos. 11 and 12 have requested to appear together and I have granted them 15 minutes to do the combined intervention. So I would now call Intervention No. 11, Indiestore.com, David Morley, and No. 12, Mike Morley.

3896 THE CHAIRPERSON: And Mr. Kuster's intervention.

3897 MR. BURNSIDE: I have not been informed whether he is in the room yet.

3898 THE CHAIRPERSON: He is not in the room. Okay. Thanks.

--- Pause / Pause

3899 THE CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed, Messrs. Morley.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

3900 MR. D. MORLEY: Thank you for letting us come and speak on behalf of Newcap FM's application.

3901 I would just like to start off by providing you with a consistent theme that you will hear throughout the course of our presentation, the main theme that will come across. It is essentially that independent artists in the alternative modern rock category currently have no outlets in the Calgary region or in the Calgary market for their music and for the music that they produce.

3902 Second, independent artists receive little support from mainstream radio or commercial radio to produce and market their products.

3903 And, thirdly, the support that does exist in the market, which is limited, provides little or no value to the indie artist.

3904 I would also like to provide you with a definition of what we mean by "independent artist". An independent artist, either by choice or by lack of access, decides to produce, market and distribute their music on their own.

3905 More and more this is coming down to a decision by the artist to control their copyrights and retain ownership to their music. If they make this decision or this choice, this does not mean that they should not have access to traditional commercial outlets and should not have access to getting exposure on commercial radio stations.

3906 So with that, what I would like to do is turn it over to my brother, who is going to be speaking from our band's perspective, which is called Hypoxia Beach. It is an independent project that we have been involved in since about 1996.

3907 MR. M. MORLEY: We originally set the band up, as my brother said, in 1996. We have had some success in terms of being played on a station called CFMY in Toronto. We were featured on the Pamela Wallen Show -- actually, my brother -- speaking to the MP3 phenomenon. We have been pretty experimental in terms of using Internet distribution and so on to try and get our products through.

3908 That is one of the interesting things about what has happened lately in terms of the entire music scene is that it is no longer a problem for us selling our products to people in terms of the fact that we don't have to run around to record stores and so on to get the products to actually sell the things. We can do it direct to fans through our Web site. Our big problem is getting exposure to start off with. That is where we see the Newcap FM proposal kind of coming into the picture in terms of getting us exposed to a larger market and so on and being able to bring local talent to the front.

3909 The main sort of exposure the bands get these days is through playing live, radio airplay and, to some extent, the Internet. The problem with the Internet of course is that people have to know you are there before they will come and get your stuff.

3910 In terms of the radio scene, there are two main forms of that. You have your college radio stations and then you have your commercial radio stations.

3911 Interestingly, from our own experience, we were able to generate some radio play of our initial CD "Close Cover Before Striking", which is available in Ontario, but we were not able to get any airplay here locally in Calgary. That is because there aren't any stations here that really -- especially in the commercial sphere, that actually bring that sort of independently produced music to the front.

3912 The interesting thing about the college radio stations is that they are very open and receptive to new music, but they tend to be a bit hit and miss in terms of how that works because they have a very high rotation in terms of the DJs which are all volunteer, and so on.

3913 Generally what you have to do for that to get the music in there is you actually have to listen to all the shows, identify the DJ that you want to go after, take the CD down to the station, give it to them, and then they may or may not play it after that. The problem with that is it is extremely time-consuming and it is very difficult --

3914 MR. M. MORLEY: It is expensive.

3915 MR. D. MORLEY: -- and it is expensive.

3916 So the mainstream radio, of course, up until now -- in Calgary here there aren't that many stations to start off with and the ones that are here don't generally play music that isn't being produced or pushed by a major label. So what ends up happening is, you tend to get -- well, you don't get any exposure to that channel at all.

3917 If stations do -- which they do in Ontario, there is a number that do an Indie hour, what they usually do is they put those things on at, like, 2:00 in the morning or whatever, so the Indie fans tend to get really pushed to the back burner and then the rest of the day is all focused on straight-up commercial music.

3918 So what we really need -- which is what the Newcap proposal is doing -- is something that really kind of builds the local scene and kind of brings artists out. There is a lot of talent here in Calgary.

3919 I am involved through my work with Indiestore, and also just on my own, checking out a lot of the bands that are here playing around town. There is some really incredible talent here that you just never hear on the main radio stations which is really unfortunate.

3920 The Newcap proposal has a number of things that looks like they are going to help bring the local talent, help develop local talent, get the music out to people, get it exposed to a wider audience.

3921 That is the biggest challenge that we face as Indie musicians, is trying to build up enough of an awareness, a fan base, to get the music out there to people who they can hear and say "Well, it's pretty cool. I would like to check these guys out". Especially in terms of gigs and in terms of product sales, because they are really that -- the radio is really the only avenue that we have to getting large scale exposure like that.

3922 From what I understand in the Newcap proposal, they are also looking at trying to build -- they are going to have an initial show that kind of brings the Indie music in, but also what they are going to do is pull some of the songs out of that hour that they -- or the show that they use for building the new talent and put them in a regular rotation, which is something that is very unique in terms of radio station proposals.

3923 I don't think other than -- I don't think I have every heard of anybody doing that in the past. That would be an extremely powerful way of bringing awareness and bringing new music to people, and so on.

3924 MR. D. MORLEY: I'm going to turn to, just with our involvement in Indiestore as well, what Indiestore is. It is an on-line distributor of independent music. Our vision really for Indiestore is that it is run and operated by artists for artists.

3925 We are essentially seeking quality independent music. We imposed a filter on the site from the get-go which is a concept of guides and these people are responsible for reviewing site submissions and determining whether it is suitable for a specific genre. So we do have a filter imposed on the quality of music so we just didn't become a massive file repository of bad music.

3926 So essentially this model, we didn't actually set out to maintain CRTC or Cancon laws, but it turned out that of our catalogue 38 per cent ended up being, as of today's date, based in Calgary; 50 per cent are from the U.S., overall, approximately 50 per cent of the artists are Canadian, which just shows you that there is a large supply of quality independent music out there within the Calgary region within Canada and within the world market as well.

3927 The artists that are involved in Indiestore, the ones that we are more familiar with, have had moderate to good success in getting commercial and college radio airplay in other markets, but to date have been underserved within the Calgary region.

3928 One of the bands "Ground", who is a local based band, currently has an application in with FACTOR for the next release, managed to get -- the only airplay that they have received in the current market -- sorry, in the Calgary market, was on CE's Indie hours, which is at a relatively obscure time slot.

3929 "Geo Gel"(phi) had a similar problem. They managed to receive airplay in foreign -- in other provinces on mainstream radio, but less so in the Calgary market.

3930 So the point is that these artists are commercially viable artists, but they are not receiving airplay currently in the current market.

3931 Another point is that one of the biggest opportunities for independent artists to actually drive CD sales is to sell their Cods through gigs when they go about gigging around the countryside.

3932 Part of having a successful gig is to get an awareness or an exposure of your band prior to actually gigging, so you need airplay to actually generate that exposure.

3933 Secondly, is letting the public know that you are gigging. There are lots of ways of doing that, sticking posters up and around, but anything else that generally increases the awareness of these gigs is a good thing, and Newcap FM's application specifically addresses that need with a minimum, I believe, of 21 announcements per week to promote the sale of Canadian modern -- AC modern rock music.

3934 Back to the catalogue of Indiestore, 60 per cent of the artists that are on Indiestore would fall into the category of alternative rock or modern rock.

3935 Another point I wanted to make is that large budgets are no longer required for making quality music. You don't have to have a $250,000 budget to make a good CD. So typically you can produce a good CD in the ballpark range of $5,000 to $10,000 with a limited CD production run.

3936 A good example of this is "Creed", which is a band out of the U.S. that their first album actually they spent $6,000 producing it and this thing went to the No. 1 on the charts in the U.S. when it was picked up by a major label. So you don't need a large budget to produce these things.

3937 The problem is, $5,000 to $10,000 for an independent artist to bear the whole financial burden of the inventory risk associated with that and then getting no exposure to actually sell and try to recoup these costs is a large burden.

3938 So now I would just like to tie it back to what Newcap is proposing to do in their application. They specifically say that 40 per cent focus on Canadian content with a focus on the Calgary region. So that, in my understanding is higher than Cancon's requirement.

3939 Secondly, they have mentioned a Web site promoting Calgary region and eventually selling physical product through its Web site, so that would be more Indie focused.

3940 The 21 announcements per week to promote sale of Canadian modern rock music, with particular focus on Calgary area artists, significant contributions of FACTOR of $700,000 over seven years, so that addresses the need of helping to offset some of the production costs that independent artists incur.

3941 Specifically I wanted to quote from Newcap's application which made us the most excited was:

"Newcap FM will not be afraid to step out and take risks of new and upcoming artists, some of whom we believe will become the next superstars, nor will Newcap FM play it safe with conservative risk averse programming that will stifle opportunities for new and emerging Canadian talent. Our modern AC adult contemporary modern rock format will broaden musical horizons and explore and embrace new vistas and sounds. To this end, Newcap FM will adopt a more daring, more wide open and more accessible approach, developing and breaking new artists and helping Calgary grow as a music community by creating access opportunities for local artists at an early stage of their development. This we believe is very important to local area artists. We believe is very important for any independent artist." (As read)

3942 So to us, Newcap's application specifically states that they will take a more aggressive and accessible approach in generating their playlist.

3943 To me, this means that they will evaluate all submissions for inclusion on their mainstream playlist.

3944 If a quality independent artist is given such exposure, it will increase demand for their music and awareness of their music and will facilitate in making the band a profitable venture, both in terms of selling live gigs and selling physical music-related product.

3945 There is currently no radio station in this region that supports such an ideology to drive the demand of Calgary region independent music in the alternative rock genre.

3946 The supply of music is there. There just is no avenue for independent artists to create a buzz around their music.

3947 I think that is the end of our presentation. So if you have questions --

3948 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Messrs Morley.

3949 Commissioner Cram.

3950 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

3951 Are you twins?

3952 MR. M. MORLEY: No.

3953 MR. D. MORLEY: No.

3954 MR. M. MORLEY: I am actually older than he is, believe it or not.

3955 COMMISSIONER CRAM: He looks older.

3956 And you are David and you are Mike?

3957 MR. M. MORLEY: That's correct.

3958 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Do you mind if I call you by your first names, just so the record doesn't get mixed up?

3959 MR. M. MORLEY: That's fine.

3960 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Do I understand that you jointly have the Internet Indiestore or is it just you, David?

3961 MR. D. MORLEY: Indiestore is actually owned by the company that we both work for which is --

3962 MR. M. MORLEY: We haven't quit our day jobs yet.

3963 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Pardon me?

3964 MR. M. MORLEY: We haven't quit our day jobs yet.

3965 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Good. Okay.

3966 So it's Pandel that owns --

3967 MR. D. MORLEY: Owns Indiestore. We both work for the company. Our company, there are quite a few people that are actually involved in bands within our company.

3968 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Have you noticed with the Internet and the ability to market over the Internet that people are going more and more to the independent label? Do you think that's a factor?

3969 MR. M. MORLEY: It has opened up a lot more options. As I was saying because you no longer have to kind of run around and I just found out recently actually that HMV is now doing this, where if you drop your CDs off, this is a very recent thing, your CDs off at any HMV in Canada, they actually put those names into their main database, where if somebody walks into the store in Toronto they can actually cross-ship, if they order that CD from the CD store in Toronto they will actually ship the CDs from Calgary down to Toronto and sell them to the person.

3970 This type of thing is now -- like our site is another example of that where any of the bands that we have there, we have got guys on there from Switzerland, the U.S., from here in Calgary. So we sell stuff all over the world.

3971 It's a really powerful thing, but again the trick still is getting the stuff heard. People don't come to the site and that's the one thing we found, even with all this technology and so on you still can't beat a good radio promotion.

3972 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And of course I am going to ask about, you said there is a lot of talent here in Calgary.

3973 MR. M. MORLEY: Tons.

3974 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Can you tell me about the jazz scene here?

3975 MR. M. MORLEY: I am not as familiar with that myself. The guys from Ground are actually largely derived from jazz-oriented musicians. They play a more -- they follow the actual music when they all come together. They are all jazz trained, but they actually play and I guess it's modern rock, AC kind of stuff.

3976 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And that's your genre, is it?

3977 MR. M. MORLEY: Ours is mostly a little bit noisier than that. We fall right into the alternative rock kind of category, the stuff that we play.

3978 I don't know as much about the jazz scene in town specifically. Most of the artists that are running on the Indiestore site tend to be more towards the alternative rock kind of category.

3979 MR. D. MORLEY: It's a very broad category.

3980 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Does that include Hip Hop or is that Urban?

3981 MR. M. MORLEY: I think they are subdivided out.

3982 MR. D. MORLEY: Hip Hop would be like Urban. It would be a separate genre.

3983 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Do you know anything about the Urban scene here in Calgary/

3984 MR. M. MORLEY: I follow that one a little bit, but not as much as some of the other stuff. Myself, I prefer more guitar oriented music and some electronic, but more electronic and stuff in terms of the hard core electronic, which is like Magnetic Flip and Euro-electronic sort of stuff as opposed to the aggressive lyric type rap.

3985 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Is Hypoxia-H your band?

3986 MR. D. MORLEY: Yes.

3987 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And it's hard core rock, is it? You know, I am learning all these new terms.

3988 MR. M. MORLEY: It falls a little bit closer to the Radiohead sort of idea, to use a mainstream band comparison. We are very much like a Radiohead kind of thing.

3989 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am so glad you cleared that one up.

3990 MR. D. MORLEY: How about Velvet Underground.

3991 MR. M. MORLEY: It's kind of like we like to have intelligent lyrics that sort of discuss things like that. The new CD that we are coming out with and will hopefully be available in the new year focusing on -- it's called Society and it is kind of derived around different things, sort of personal observations about things.

3992 MR. D. MORLEY: It's music with pop sensibility. You can come up with your own genres if you want. We always called it eclectic rock.

3993 I guess the point is modern rock is a very broad category and what it is is it tends to be new music is the focus. It would be loosely branded rock and roll, so, yes, our stuff yes it would fit in there. That's why I said about 60 per cent of the catalogue on Indiestore would fall into that broad genre.

3994 MR. M. MORLEY: To use another example too, just in terms of local talent going elsewhere and so on. The fellows in Interstellar Root Cellar actually, which is a more funk rock sort of band, they are actually over in Europe right now. They get more exposure over there playing than they do in this sort of region. I guess Ground has similar. They do okay in B.C. The most exposure they have received so far is actually through the CBC and so on.

3995 MR. D. MORLEY: And our own experience with the band was we couldn't get any airplay in the Calgary region, both from college and mainstream radio, although we succeeded both channels in the Ontario market.

3996 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I understand that aboriginal musicians actually have a heck of a lot of success in Germany.

3997 MR. M. MORLEY: Germany?

3998 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.

3999 MR. M. MORLEY: Cool.

4000 MR. D. MORLEY: We have a Swedish country band on our site.

4001 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you for taking time off your day job. Thank you.

4002 MR. M. MORLEY: Thanks for hearing us.

4003 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cram.

4004 Thank you both for your presentation. It was intelligent and there are no further questions.

4005 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I think someone better tell Elmer Hildebrand that he can come back into the room now.

4006 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary.

4007 MR. BURNSIDE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4008 I would like to point out now Item 13 has switched places by mutual consent with Item 28, so I will now call Intervention 28, Tony Sutherland, representing the Urban Music Association of Canada.

4009 You may proceed when you are ready.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

4010 MR. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.

4011 Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission. My name is Tony Sutherland and I appear before you on behalf of the Urban Music Association of Canada, also known as UMAC.

4012 As President of UMAC and a representative of Urban music enthusiasts I am delighted to have this opportunity to speak before you today in support of The Rhythm FM-98.5, Standard Radio Inc.'s application for a new urban radio station here in Calgary.

4013 Allow me to first provide a brief background on UMAC and myself. I have a rich history of over 20 years in the development of the urban music scene here in Canada. My music career began as a DJ. I worked as a campus and commercial radio announcer and programmer. I have written for numerous urban publications, was instrumental in the implementation of the Dance and Reggae music categories within the Juno Awards. Currently, I chair a committee for the Juno Awards, work as a music business educator and applicate on behalf of Canadian Urban music through UMAC.

4014 UMAC is a non-profit organization dedicated to the domestic and international promotion, education and development of Canadian Urban music. To us Urban music is loosely defined as genres encompassing R&B, Soul, Rap, Dance, Reggae, to name a few.

4015 Since 1996 UMAC has actively worked together with artists, musicians, industry leaders, the media and fans to raise the profile of Urban music within Canada. We organize music showcases, workshops, forums, discussion groups and the annual Canadian Urban Music Awards now in its fourth year, which recognizes the best of Canadian Urban music and media talent.

4016 Following the recent Milestone decision in Toronto, we believe that a licence for The Rhythm FM in Calgary represents an important next step to the diversification of Canada's airwaves. UMAC and the greater Urban music community is committed to the advancement of an inclusive Urban music scene through collective collaboration and mutual support.

4017 The Rhythm will play a critical role in the further advancement of all participants in this vibrant and growing Urban music community in the Calgary market.

4018 The Rhythm's impact will be felt in three main areas. First, The Rhythm is well positioned to make a positive impact on the development of Canadian Urban music talent and industry infrastructure. For instance, The Rhythm will provide airplay support, marketing and promotion of Canadian Urban music talent which will help fuel national music industry and encourage up and coming new artists in the community. Like the landmark Cancom policy of the seventies which helped Canadian artists gain exposure to our airwaves or on our airwaves, The Rhythm will open doors for new urban artists by committing 40 per cent of its broadcast to Canadian artists.

4019 As a result of my work with the Juno Awards and working within a multinational record company for a number of years, I can certainly support the claim that ample talent exists in Calgary and around Canada to support this format.

4020 The Rhythm will give a much needed forum to the multitude of existing and blossoming artists and producers who now toil in relative obscurity. Given the lucrative nature of the Urban music scene and to borrow from a gentleman who was here earlier today, KC Styles, who spoke earlier, these artist continue to dream unseen.

4021 The Rhythm will help strengthen the Urban music industry infrastructure in Alberta, resulting in new industry jobs, an increased awareness of national as well as locally based urban artists.

4022 The Rhythm's long-term dedication to developing the local industry infrastructure is best exemplified by Standard Radio Inc.'s commitment of $4.9 million over seven years to its implementing six exciting initiatives aimed at developing new Canadian talent and increasing co-operation between the music and broadcasting industries. This is a natural for Standard Radio who has always been a strong supporter of Canadian talent.

4023 These initiatives will ensure that local talent will be heard both locally and nationally.

4024 Second, we believe that The Rhythm will make a positive contribution to the advancement of multiculturalism and diversity in Calgary.

4025 The Rhythm is committed to hiring the best on-air talent and administration, regardless of ethnicity or race. Urban music is a reflection of the myriad of cultural expressions unified by a common urban experience.

4026 I believe that you are aware that this music has a unique way of bringing people together. You merely have to go to a club one night to see this.

4027 The Calgary music scene and the greater community in general are culturally rich and diverse. The Rhythm is committed to drawing from the very best within these communities to ensure that a statement is vibrant, inclusive and representative of the greater Calgary community. Standard Radio informed us that it had developed a comprehensive employment equity plan with extensive provisions for targeted recruitment and staff training.

4028 UMAC believes that this is very important to the development of on-air talent who espouse the Urban music culture.

4029 The Rhythm also will significantly increase the music diversity in the Calgary radio market as there is next to no urban music currently being played in Calgary today. Through a distinctive format, The Rhythm will give members of the black and ethnic communities in Calgary their own voice in the Canadian broadcast system and will serve members of the younger adult community who have an interest in the events, issues and cultural context that underlie the development of urban music.

4030 Additionally, The Rhythm will further distinguish itself by providing a promotional and public system for ethnic cultural events taking place in Calgary that are currently missing an appropriate media outlet.

4031 Third, The Rhythm, in co-operation with UMAC, has agreed to sponsor an award category for the annual Canadian Urban Music Awards. This initiative certainly will help to keep this necessary ritual alive to further recognize and elevate talent within Canada's urban music industry and will enhance the growth of the urban music infrastructure in Canada. National recognition of local talent will encourage young, up and coming artists to follow their dreams and communicate their vision.

4032 The Rhythm is committed to working UMAC and other industry members to develop new and exciting opportunities and initiatives for the advancement of urban music in both the local as well as national communities. The Rhythm will provide a meeting place for artists from all parts of Canada and beyond to exchange ideas, experiences and knowledge. That is how we grow. A radio station represents a place where artists can interact with the public, both directly and indirectly.

4033 To summarize, we believe that The Rhythm will play an important role in assisting Canadian urban music talent by providing a forum for their voices, thereby filling an obvious void in the Calgary and Canadian broadcasting landscape.

4034 That is very important to us.

4035 The Rhythm will develop and nurture the Canadian music industry's infrastructure by further strengthening the relationship between artists, musicians, record labels, and certainly the media.

4036 Additionally, The Rhythm will play an important role in strengthening the network of music industry and radio broadcasting participants throughout the country as a leader in innovative programming.

4037 UMAC is proud and excited to support The Rhythm, and we are looking forward to working together with The Rhythm and all the other members of the urban music community to provide Calgary with the very best in urban music and culture through the radio waves.

4038 Canadian urban music talent exists, and their voices are vibrant and diverse.

4039 Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, we encourage you to grant this licence to The Rhythm and thus ensure that these voices are heard.

4040 Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today. I will be glad to answer any questions that you may have at this time.

4041 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

4042 Commissioner Cram will lead the questioning.

4043 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. Sutherland. Did you fly out today?

4044 MR. SUTHERLAND: I flew out on Sunday evening.

4045 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Urban artists certainly must be able to access money from FACTOR.

4046 MR. SUTHERLAND: Absolutely.

4047 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So hard-earned money from broadcasters goes into developing these urban artists, and they have one outlet coming up.

4048 MR. SUTHERLAND: Coming up, yes.

4049 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Did UMAC start in 1996?

4050 MR. SUTHERLAND: In 1996.

4051 COMMISSIONER CRAM: How many members do you have?

4052 MR. SUTHERLAND: We have on paper approximately 75. We do have affiliated people that are not necessarily members.

4053 Farley Flex, who was here on behalf of this licence as well, is not a member but is part of our advisory team. We have people like Brian Robertson, who is the head of CRIA, who is a member of the association. Pat Williams, who is the head of Warner Chapel Publishing, is also a member of UMAC.

4054 So our members are obscure artists to people who are well-known in the community as well.

4055 COMMISSIONER CRAM: How many of those 75 are from Calgary or the area around southern Alberta?

4056 MR. SUTHERLAND: Right now I think we have one member in Edmonton. We don't have a member in Calgary at this point. The opportunity to be here today has been exciting, because it has given me a chance to meet other urban people who I have not met before.

4057 I am sure you will hear from a few of them today. It is a great opportunity to come into the market to see these people. I have spoken to some of them on the phone, but I have not had a chance to press the flesh, so to speak, and to make those alliances. This is a great opportunity.

4058 I spoke to one gentleman, Ludlow, and he said to me he definitely would like to become a member. Because of this licence, this is the opportunity that we have to come together. We can then build and grow. That is our goal.

4059 COMMISSIONER CRAM: After you have been -- and I will use your term -- pressing the flesh here this week, can you tell me about the urban music scene in Calgary?

4060 MR. SUTHERLAND: Let me tell you about it from two points of view, one when I worked from a national record company standpoint. I worked all of the urban releases, everything from reggae, hip hop, R&B, dance, et cetera. There is a vibrant pool system.

4061 I am sure you are probably aware of the record pools. These are pools of DJs that belong to certain record clubs, and we would service these records to these DJs who would in turn play them at these various clubs.

4062 There was one pool out here called West Beat that we serviced records to. I was on the phone with them all the time. I never had a chance to fly out here because my boss always believed in getting on the phone: don't fly, just get on the phone.

4063 So we would talk a lot. He would tell me that the market is incredible. Of course being from the big smoke, you have this perception of Calgary as the Calgary Stampede and you can't be having urban clubs out here.

4064 The second point I would like to go into is that I actually came out on Sunday, and I have been to clubs on Sunday night. I went to a club on Monday night. I went to a club last night. And all three nights I was able to see people, people like myself, people who were older, people who were younger, people of different stripes, different colours, partying, mixing, mingling, dancing, and a large proportion of the music is urban music.

4065 When I say urban, let's say dance music as well. But let's take dance music out of the mix, which is kind of very mainstream, and we just say hip hop and R&B. A large proportion of that music is hip hop and R&B, and they are right in step and enjoying it. They are enjoying each other's company. They are enjoying the music.

4066 The first point I made from the record company standpoint is that we were able to sell records here.

4067 One artist in particular, who is well known now, Dru Hill, who has a spin-off artist called Cisco, I took my cues from Calgary. I would go into my marketing meetings and take my sound scan sales and say: "Look at what is happening in Calgary. They are selling records out there." And that is still happening today from record company to record company. They re taking their cues from Calgary.

4068 COMMISSIONER CRAM: For urban music.

4069 MR. SUTHERLAND: For urban music. Yes, Toronto is huge, but it is expected. Calgary is not expected. You don't expect that.

4070 I drive into town and I go into HMV and I see all these urban music, front rack. Why would he front rack music that is not selling?

4071 That is my best answer.

4072 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you very much, and thank you for finally coming out to see Calgary.

4073 MR. SUTHERLAND: My pleasure. I really enjoy it here, and I would like to come back again.

4074 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

4075 THE CHAIRPERSON: We have no further questions, Mr. Sutherland. Thank you.

4076 Mr. Secretary.

4077 MR. BURNSIDE: I have just been informed that intervenor no. 8, Mr. Kuster, is now here. So I will back up a little bit and call Paul Kuster, please.

--- Pause / Pause

4078 THE CHAIRPERSON: You may begin, Mr. Kuster.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

4079 MR. KUSTER: Thank you for having me.

4080 I have a speech that I think you may have a copy of now, and you will have to forgive me because I think there are a couple of typos. I just sort of hacked this together at the last second. So bear with me. I think most of it is all right, though.

4081 My name is Paul Kuster. I am currently employed at Global Television in Calgary, where I have been working as a broadcast journalist for the past seven years. Even though Calgary has been my home for the past 11 years, I still call Saskatchewan my true home.

4082 I am Cree from the Beardy's and Okemasis First Nation at Duck Lake, but I grew up mostly in Regina.

4083 When I was a child in Regina I often felt the sting of prejudice on an almost daily basis. The ignorance that pervaded the city could be felt everywhere. I guess people felt that they could paint aboriginals with the same brush based on what they would see in the downtown core of the city.

4084 Sure there were the drunks and the poverty, and that's what many people believed was the lot of all aboriginal people. But of course that was never the case, and never will be. In fact, I believe that Canadian society has grown in the sense that more people are aware of our culture, our history, and our place in Canada. There is still much to be learned and understood, but I believe that we are at least on a better road than we were even ten years ago.

4085 That is why I am here to speak to you today. I am throwing my support behind Aboriginal Voices Radio or AVR. As I mentioned earlier, I have been working in mainstream media for seven years. As a result of that, I know how the media works and operates. I know what stories make the lead on the six o'clock news or what story is splashed on the front page of the newspaper. Stories that are full of controversy and mayhem are in a very weird sense "good news". Therefore, most stories with aboriginal content tend to be slanted that way.

4086 But that medium is aimed at instant gratification. That's the way I see it. You get it on the news for today's deadline and throw it away as soon as the news goes off the air. There is often not enough time to get to the heart of the real issue. Since most news directors and managers are non-aboriginal, there is often very little weight given to aboriginal stories. They are more concerned with what matters to the greater population. Working in the business as one of the few aboriginal reporters in the entire country, this can be a frustrating experience. In short, the stories that matter to our people have never been given the time of day in mainstream media.

4087 Therefore, I see Aboriginal Voices Radio as a great opportunity. It is a chance for our people to share what's important to us with everyone. Indian country is a widespread, tight community. We like to talk about and share what is new and important in our communities, whether on the reserve or in the cities. A radio airwave is a great way to get our stories out there. It can hit many people at one time. And, most importantly, it is a venue where our perspective can be shared with everyone. That in itself is a great education tool. Someone listening to AVR who knows nothing about our issues, our culture, our history, can learn a great deal. Learning by listening can be a real eye-opener.

4088 If AVR is approved, it will also help aboriginal people who are looking to make their mark in this world. At this particular time, there is an incredibly small number of native people working in the media. We need more. AVR would provide opportunities that are otherwise practically non-existent. Careers could be forged for aboriginal writers, musicians, playwrights and producers. On the technical side, there are all kinds of opportunities that could lead to long, sustainable careers.

4089 Having our people tell what's important to us and tell it our way I believe is the only way to go. There are currently few all aboriginal productions in Canada today. There are of course aboriginal newspapers, a few TV programs, and some on-reserve radio, but aside from that there is little else. AVR would be a most welcome addition to an area that is desperately in need of more aboriginal voices.

4090 The goings on over the past ten years have heightened awareness about issues that are changing our Indian nations. Burnt Church comes to mind, as do the stand offs we saw on the west coast and Quebec. Often I meet non-aboriginal people who want to learn more about why issues such as land claims and treaty rights are so important to us. AVR could answer many of those questions.

4091 People ask me why our culture is different and why we try to protect it so much. AVR could answer those questions. People ask me why elders and spiritual leaders are so important to us. Well, I believe that AVR could answer those questions as well.

4092 I have heard in the past people question that if Aboriginal communities are given broadcast licenses, wouldn't that only serve to widen the gap between "us and them"; that is: by having our own programs, isn't that alienating aboriginal culture from non-Aboriginal even more? Would the gap be that much more difficult to bridge?

4093 All I can say is that we need that voice. The native people of this country have been disenfranchised for too long. We too have something to share. We too have something to offer. We have never had that chance before, but that is changing. Slowly but surely it is changing. Native people are coming to the fore on their own initiative and I hope and believe that AVR will continue that trend.

4094 I never went to broadcast school. I more or less stumbled into the business. Therefore, I never really learned the rhetoric and theory behind the media -- at least not in the traditional sense of a classroom and lectures at a post secondary institution. But I have learned a few things over the years.

4095 One of the most basic fundamentals of the media is to inform society about what is happening in their world and why it matters to them. That is why we have the tv news, that is why we have newspapers, and that is why we have radio.

4096 Speaking of radio, talk radio has been a staple of Canadian culture. But I find talk radio to be a medium that serves different masters.

4097 There is one talk show host in this city that has a huge audience every day. Aboriginal issues are given airtime on this program, but it is often slanted and aimed at placing our people and the issues important to us in a negative light. The host's opinions I believe are often biased and almost a political advertisement for what used to be known as the Reform Party. In a sense, his comments reflect the red-neck attitudes that can be found here in Alberta. Therefore, that particular radio show becomes a rallying point for people who want to slam aboriginal people and the issues that are important to us. AVR would, I hope, level the playing field by putting forward our ideas and beliefs our way.

4098 And who knows? Maybe one day a non-native listener may tune his dial to AVR and discover a truth he didn't know before. Or maybe he will hear a traditional native song and fall in love with the music. Or maybe he will hear an elder talk about her experiences growing up on a remote reserve when native people weren't allowed the freedom to leave their land without permission from an indian agent. Maybe they will hear a spiritual leader tell a creation story. Maybe he will listen to a play written by a talented playwright. Maybe he will hear the latest on treaty rights and negotiations about logging or lobster fishing on the daily news. Wouldn't he walk away with something he didn't know before and perhaps a greater understanding about our people.

4099 And what about the native person sitting at home who hears AVR for the first time; would they be impressed if they heard a news report in Cree or Blackfoot? Would they like to hear an aboriginal host and aboriginal talent on their radio? I believe that a feeling of pride would come over them, and guaranteed they would quickly become a repeat listener. The moccasin telegraph would shift into overdrive and aboriginal people would be tuning into their radios in their car, on the reserve, or in the city.

4100 Therefore, I support Aboriginal Voices Radio. I believe it is a great initiative that will do well to bring our two peoples together in a spirit of sharing and understanding.

4101 Perhaps that will and hopefully in the end, it will bring all of us who live in this country a little bit closer together.

4102 That is my presentation for you.

4103 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kuster.

4104 Commissioner Langford will lead the questioning of your intervention.

4105 MR. KUSTER: Okay.

4106 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you.

4107 There is kind of a curiosity I had as I sat listening to you, because one of the things we have heard over and over by the applicants for this station and the supporters is that there just is nothing now for aboriginal people in the city and there are a lot of people who want something.

4108 What are you listening to now when you drive to work, when you turn on your radio?

4109 MR. KUSTER: On the radio? Geez, just about anything and everything. I like to flip over the dial.

4110 But you're right, there is just nothing really around here that deals specifically with aboriginal content. I have heard different stats, but it's anywhere from about 10,000 to 50,000 people living in the city of Calgary that are of aboriginal ancestry. The work I do, working in the media, I get to meet many of these people from all over. That is the one thing I have been hearing since I got into the business seven years ago is people wishing that there was more content. That there was something out there for them to listen to.

4111 There is I think a weekly program or a biweekly program on the local university radio station, but that is pretty few and far between. So there is just not really anything.

4112 At least on the reserves there are some radio stations. I believe the Stoney people have started something. The people out at Siksika, the Blackfoot nation, they have their own program. But for the city of Calgary, which is reaching almost a million people, there is a larger number of aboriginal people living within the city boundaries and there is just nothing out there for them to listen to and to hear what is going on in their communities or what is happening across the country.

4113 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You are in the industry now, in a somewhat different aspect, but you are still there. You are seeing the amount of money it takes to put this stuff up and running.

4114 MR. KUSTER: Yes.

4115 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We had an intervention today from a Mr. Bert Crowfoot. One of his worries was there just wasn't the money there, there wasn't the financing, and that he didn't want to see the station get started and then fail for lack of money.

4116 What is your sense of the commitment that could be drawn to this and the financial commitment. I mean, everybody is in favour of it, but will they vote with their cheque books? Will there be money there?

4117 MR. KUSTER: Personally, yes, that's the tough question. But I think there is money out there and I think there is the sponsors or whoever it is that handles that side of the business. Of course I don't work on that side, but I understand television and film and I know what it takes to put a production together.

4118 But I believe if the content is worthy enough, somebody eventually will come up with the necessary funding, with the necessary resources. I think that what they are trying to do, because -- well, frankly it hasn't been done before. I am confident that they will be able to handle that business side of it, because the people who are running that, I know some of them and I know how competent they are.

4119 I think that if they get the right message across, I think there is going to be the right partnerships drawn up to keep it going, not just get it off the ground for the first year but to keep it sustainable. I look at something like the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network. They have had their struggles getting up on the air, but they are doing it and they are starting to develop some programming now that wasn't there, say, six months ago, a year ago. More and more people, at least the people I'm talking to, more and more people are becoming aware of it and are starting to watch it and watch it with interest.

4120 I think, well, you know, if they can get off the ground, even though shaky as it is, well, I think a radio station, a radio program or a place with radio content, I believe that they can do it. They just have to sell it to the right people. I am not too worried about it being a two-year deal. I sure as heck hope it doesn't become that, but I'm confident they can fly with this thing for a long time.

4121 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thanks very much.

4122 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kuster. There are no further questions.

4123 MR. KUSTER: Okay.

4124 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks.

4125 Mr. Secretary, I propose that we take a break at this time, perhaps 15 minutes. Twenty minutes maybe would be more appropriate because of the distance of our room from here.

4126 MR. BURNSIDE: We will reconvene, then, at 25 to 4:00.

4127 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Secretary.

--- Upon recessing at 1515/ Suspension à 1515

--- Upon resuming at 1542 / Reprise à 1542

4128 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. We will now call the Calgary public hearing back to order.

4129 Mr. Secretary.

4130 MR. BURNSIDE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4131 I would now like to call Intervenor No. 14 in the Agenda, Ludlow Rodney.

--- Pause / Pause

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

4132 MR. RODNEY: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Commission.

4133 My name is Ludlow Rodney. I am a Calgary-based concert promoter and music industry entrepreneur. I am certainly glad to have this opportunity to appear before you in support of The Rhythm 98.5, Standard Radio's application for a new radio licence.

4134 As a local concert promoter, I am extremely familiar with the growing pool of music talent in Calgary and adjoining areas as I have just recently coordinated and produced Calgary's first Urban Music Talent Search.

4135 Over the past decade, urban musical talent and fan support has experienced unprecedented growth. But unfortunately, I am also too familiar with the struggles and obstacles that so many young artists and musicians face on a day to day basis.

4136 Simply put, local artists and musicians need to get airplay in order for their careers to be launched and developed.

4137 I believe that The Rhythm will play an integral role as a cornerstone in Calgary's urban music community. The Rhythm will fill a void in Calgary's radio market because of their commitment to showcase Canadian talent and local artists. There is currently no radio broadcast dedicated to the countless voices in Calgary's urban music and ethnic communities.

4138 I believe that we have a responsibility to create opportunities for artists and musicians to be heard. The Rhythm will provide urban artists and musicians with the means of accessing the local marketplace so that the Calgary community has the opportunity to hear and support Canadian urban artists.

4139 There is no doubt in my mind that if granted a licence, The Rhythm will help to build the Canadian urban music industry and allow us to be as competitive and successful as our U.S. counterparts. The excitement and energy that The Rhythm will bring is immeasurable.

4140 In reviewing Standard's application, I was impressed and encouraged by its demonstrated commitment to supporting local artists. Its initiatives to establish an annual talent search, CD compilations and live concerts and tour opportunities for the most promising young artists and musicians will ignite the rich local talent and encourage the promising stars of tomorrow. These initiatives are critical to the further development and advancement of the local music industry's infrastructure.

4141 The Rhythm will also provide a valuable public forum for the various ethnic communities to communicate to the broader community and to share their cultures. The Rhythm will not merely be a call name and frequency: it will be a place where people meet to communicate and share their urban experience.

4142 I am pleased that The Rhythm is committed to developing a strong cooperative relationship with Milestones Radio, based in Toronto. I believe that the collaborative efforts of these two ground-breaking initiatives will ensure that the vibrant urban music movement will have support across Canada. This in turn will contribute to the creation of urban stars at a national level.

4143 In addition, the importance of a radio station in assuring the long-term health of the local music industry cannot be overstated. Jobs will be created, not only in the immediate industry, but also potentially in other associated industries such as advertising sales. The flow over into the greater local businesses and communities within Calgary and Southern Alberta will be immense.

4144 By granting a licence to The Rhythm, you will be providing our city with a unique radio service, a forum for local and non-local Canadian urban artists to showcase their talent, and a place for our ethnic and non-ethnic communities to share their stories and experiences.

4145 For these reasons, ladies and gentlemen, I support strongly Standard's application for a new urban music radio station.

4146 I would like to thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission, for granting me this opportunity to speak before you today.

4147 Thank you very much.

4148 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are welcome, Mr. Rodney.

4149 Commissioner Cram.

4150 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you for coming, Mr. Rodney.

4151 You say you are a concert promoter.

4152 MR. RODNEY: Yes.

4153 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And do you promote sort of all sorts of concerts, or do you limit your endeavours?

4154 MR. RODNEY: Well, I basically stick to urban music, but I promote other shows also.

4155 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You don't have to show me your financial statement, but can you make a living being a promoter to urban concerts here in Calgary?

4156 MR. RODNEY: I was asked that question just today and I said, "I haven't given up my day job as yet".

4157 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Oh, okay.

4158 And when you talk about the first urban music talent search, you said you did that last year.

4159 MR. RODNEY: This year actually.

4160 COMMISSIONER CRAM: This year.

4161 MR. RODNEY: Yes.

4162 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And so when you did that, I am assuming that you had people who entered, groups. How many entered the talent search?

4163 MR. RODNEY: Well, as a matter of fact, I had five to six groups per night for nine weeks and then I went to semi-finals and then I went to a finals. What I did is I flew in Bonnie Federal(ph) of EMI Records because usually the record labels don't come to the west looking for urban talent. So I figured I would bring her out here to show her what kind of talent we had here and she was thoroughly amazed and we keep in touch constantly and I am currently looking at developing some artists for her.

4164 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Oh, good. And tell me when you said all of these nights and the weeks and the number of groups, were they in the form of a concert or something, or the whole competition?

4165 MR. RODNEY: No. What happens is that within the urban market there are a lot of kids out there and urban music transcends colour. There are all sorts of kids. I mean, I even had a native Indian rap group come and perform at my talent search. Urban music is just growing by leaps and bounds and there was not -- I had to literally turn off my cellphone sometimes because there were so many people calling me to be a part of this.

4166 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Very interesting.

4167 Thank you very much.

4168 MR. RODNEY: You are welcome.

4169 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cram.

4170 No further questions, Mr. Rodney.

4171 MR. RODNEY: Thank you.

--- Pause / Pause

4172 MR. BURNSIDE: Good afternoon, Mr. Jones. Please proceed when you are ready.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

4173 MR. JONES: Mr. Chairman and members of the Board.

4174 My name is Ray Jones and I am a member of Calgary City Council. The main reason I am here today is because Telemedia basically asked me. I saw, after reviewing their application, a commitment to Canadian artists and the people of Calgary.

4175 My letter to you is fairly self-explanatory and expresses the opinions that I had on this application. I can honestly say I know nothing about the other applicants and I know you have a tough decision to make.

4176 A number of years ago, Calgary was classed as the brown zone. If it didn't ooze out of the ground and come out of a cow we didn't care.

--- Laughter / Rires

4177 That trend has changed. As the city grows and accepts new industry, the people's diversity grows as well. In this city and province we no longer rely on oil, gas and agriculture, while they are still major reasons for our success. In the past ten years we have gone out of our way to diversify and not become dependent on one or two markets.

4178 We now boast becoming the heart of the New West. We are second only to Toronto in head offices and Calgary has become a major distribution hub for western Canada for a number of companies such as Wal-Mart, Matrix, Sears, to name a few. Plus, we are home to a number of high tech industries as well such as Nortel and WI-Lan.

4179 I honestly believe this city can support a smooth jazz station. I also believe a number of artists in the Calgary area will benefit from this station's support.

4180 When I read through this application, I saw that they were willing to give back to the community in a time of government cutbacks. I can tell you a commitment of direct cash of $1.47 million over seven years will greatly benefit current artists as well as up and coming musicians in schools.

4181 Three hundred and fifty million dollars in cash for the Calgary Jazz Festival, $700,000 to Jazz in Schools Program and $420,000 to post-secondary, consisting of $175,000 to Mount Royal and $245,000 to the University of Calgary, as well as an in-direct commitment of $2.2. million which would provide much needed funding support to schools and post-secondary institutions as well as help promote the Calgary Jazz Festival.

4182 I currently sit as a member of the Calgary Community Lottery Board and I can tell you that we receive a great deal of requests from schools to help out their music programs and one of the reasons why is because government cutbacks can and have affected music programs in this city.

4183 In closing, I think that this has been a carefully thought out proposal that does not have duplication in the marketplace. I think it has a viability and a certain distinct sophistication about it.

4184 I think that this has been a carefully thought-out proposal but does not have duplication in the marketplace. I think it has a viability and a certain distinct sophistication about it. It will not have a negative impact on current stations, and I cannot think of one reason not to support this application.

4185 It is of direct benefit to the citizens of this city and a win-win situation for everyone.

4186 Thank you.

4187 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Alderman.

4188 Commissioner Noël will lead the questioning.

4189 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Bonjour.

4190 MR. JONES: Bonjour.

4191 COMMISSIONER NOËL: How are you?

4192 MR. JONES: Good.

4193 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Could I ask you a question about the Calgary Jazz Festival. You mentioned that it is an important event in your city.

4194 How many days does it run?

4195 MR. JONES: I believe it runs over the course of a week. We have the Folk Festival as well that runs on Princes Island in downtown Calgary.

4196 The Festival runs out of the island, but it also runs in the downtown core and there are a number of things that happen with it.

4197 I am going to be honest with you. I had not seen the other applications, and I per se am not a jazz aficionado. I have heard from a number of people --

4198 COMMISSIONER NOËL: You should come to Montreal.

4199 MR. JONES: That is what I say. I think there is a certain sophistication about jazz. I think in this city we have a format on one of the stations. I believe they do it Thursday morning and Saturday evening, and that is about it for jazz in this city.

4200 We don't have a lot of jazz clubs per se, and I think something like this would probably spur that on.

4201 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Do you know how many people come from out of town to attend that Jazz Festival?

4202 MR. JONES: I know it is very well attended. A friend of mine was actually one of the directors a number of years ago, and it is very well attended, as is the Folk Festival that we do in the city. It is packed when it is here.

4203 COMMISSIONER NOËL: So it does bring economic development to the city.

4204 MR. JONES: Yes, it does. And a portion of it is funded by Craft, so a portion of the funding does come from provincial as well as the city. It is doled out by performing arts people.

4205 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you very much, Mr. Jones.

4206 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Noël.

4207 There are no further questions, Alderman; thank you.

4208 Mr. Secretary.

4209 MR. BURNSIDE: I would like to now call the University of Calgary, Malcolm Edwards.

--- Pause / Pause

4210 THE CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed when you are ready, Mr. Edwards.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

4211 MR. EDWARDS: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Malcolm Edwards, and I am the head of the Department of Music at the University of Calgary.

4212 I am pleased today to have this opportunity to represent the Department of Music and to present a brief submission in support of Telemedia Radio (West) Incorporated.

4213 I wish to focus my thoughts on six main points.

4214 One, I think that this applicant is proposing a specialty format that will have as its main focus the jazz genre. This will certainly distinguish it and give it a distinctive voice amid a clutter of rock and pop stations.

4215 As a music educator, I would submit that there are two main musical languages: one is certainly the classical music language, with its emphasis on written texts and the eye, while the other is the jazz musical language, with its emphasis on improvisatory exploration and the ear.

4216 A total musician tries to be fluent in both; in other words, musically bilingual. While the CBC FM network does an excellent job in being Canada's cultural voice in the classical arena, I would submit that there is a dearth of radio voices highlighting the particular vocabulary of jazz.

4217 Telemedia Radio not only will fill this gap but will fill it with an impressive Canadian content level. Their proposal to the Commission, I believe on Monday morning, spelled out their commitment on this.

4218 Second, I believe that the City of Calgary is ready for this. No longer is the sensibility of the city wholly summed up with the descriptors the "Calgary Stampede", "Country and Western music" and "beef". There is a diversity and a growing sophistication in all levels of cultural endeavour in Calgary, and that should find a reflection in the local media.

4219 There is a whole universe of "musics" out there that receive little exposure because of our homage to the narrow band limited play list. Telemedia's proposal will hopefully offer a widening of that musical spectrum.

4220 Third, the Department of Music will certainly be the beneficiary of scholarships and other touring financial support for our ensembles. This is important to us as a tangible commitment from Telemedia to talent development in this community.

4221 I think it is important for the Commission to recognize that while Alberta is an extraordinarily rich province, post-secondary funding here is increasingly being targeted towards highly specific areas that are deemed essential if this province is to take its place in a high tech world. In other words, I am speaking of information technology, computers and the like.

4222 The arts and humanities have, to some extent, taken a back seat in this rush to the brave new world, and in the Department of Music we are certainly dealing with more students every year on fewer per capita dollars every year.

4223 Our support for Telemedia then is based upon the unassailable fact that they sought us out and asked the question: "How can we help you in support of your educational goals?"

4224 It was an offer that we gratefully accepted.

4225 Four, the proposal from Telemedia Radio also outlines its commitment to the high schools of this city. Ultimately we at the university and the Department of Music are beneficiaries of that too, for we audition and admit some of the musical products of Calgary high schools for their university education.

4226 To use a biological analogy: we are close to the top end of the food chain, and what happens in high schools works its way through the system to us -- and hopefully with very pleasing results.

4227 Five, Telemedia Radio proposes a very substantial investment under the umbrella term "Jazz in Schools". The component parts are identified for you in their particular proposal.

4228 I am of the opinion that music education for adolescents is much more than a cosmetic exercise. It is much more than a pleasant leisure pastime or something that supplies a contrasting antidote to the rest of their school day. It is an activity that supplies meaning. It supplies self-growth, skill acquisition and a contact with the beautiful.

4229 Of the people who have such a connection in their lives, it can be said that their lives have some meaning. It may be a truism that young people can make beautiful music, but it is equally true that music can make beautiful young people.

4230 I would suggest that this is a worthwhile societal goal for any media company to adopt.

4231 Six, and finally, I do believe that the media have a responsibility beyond merely the provision of entertainment in the form of a soundtrack as we walk through our lives. Besides entertainment, I would hope for two other words that also begin with "e": education and enlightenment.

4232 Certainly the civilizations of antiquity, the Greeks, the Romans and others, viewed music as a powerful force that could change the character of an individual and influence the masses.

4233 Telemedia's proposal has a strong "e" educational component that relates to what they will be doing on-air. I believe that their proposed format will not only offer Calgarians another listening option but that it will be an enlightening option as well.

4234 Thank you for this opportunity to represent the Department and to present my views.

4235 I am willing to share questions.

4236 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Professor Edwards.

4237 Commissioner Cram will lead the questioning on your intervention.

4238 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. Edwards, for coming. I now find out that I am only half a musician. I cannot do anything other than read music. I can't do it in any other way. So I guess I am only half a musician. I can't do anything other than by reading music.

4239 I am half a musician and music has been a big part of my life. Can you give me an idea, in terms of the development of a musician to the point where they become a star of some note, of the span of time that that may take?

4240 I am talking of classical jazz or the other -- we can just take half musicians, if you want.

4241 MR. EDWARDS: Undoubtedly it helps if one starts very early. Sometimes -- and I am saying this facetiously -- it is often a good idea to start with the mother. I am saying that young children in the womb are susceptible to musical influences, and it is not too soon to start nine months before the birth of the child.

4242 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Or eight months.

4243 MR. EDWARDS: That being said, I think what we are seriously talking about is an education that starts very early, in kindergarten, in grade one, and proceeds through the school system that way.

4244 Certainly I don't think anybody develops a major facility outside of shall we say 12 or 15 years of fairly intensive practice.

4245 COMMISSIONER CRAM: When you look at it -- and Commissioner Noël and I both started at age five, with our little feet dangling on the piano bench --

4246 COMMISSIONER NOËL: I was taller than you.

4247 COMMISSIONER CRAM: My feet were dangling, hers were not.

--- Laughter / Rires

4248 COMMISSIONER CRAM: When you look at it, in terms of rising to prominence, and based on being a good little pianist and knowing the festival scene in Saskatchewan, I have to say that I only know one or two people out of the whole generation that I was involved with that actually came to prominence.

4249 So the statistics are not that hot, are they?

4250 MR. EDWARDS: Well, the apex of the pyramid will always be very small. But that does not mean to say that we should develop the base of the pyramid, the grassroots, to be as wide as possible.

4251 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What is the ratio between the apex and the base?

4252 MR. EDWARDS: I think that is an impossible question to answer actually.

4253 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you very much. I am going to never forget you, because I know I am only half a musician.

4254 THE CHAIRPERSON: Professor, you have attracted a bit of interest. A couple of other Commissioners have questions.

4255 MR. EDWARDS: Sure.

4256 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Well, it's just that I want to cite Boris Brott, who is the conductor of the McGill Chamber Orchestra. He mentioned, in an interview a number of years ago, that his interest in music started when his mother was pregnant with him and she played the cello. Actually, she was a cellist with the Montreal Symphony Orchestra. So I think your theory is quite right.

4257 MR. EDWARDS: Thank you.

4258 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Noël.

4259 Commissioner Langford...?

4260 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I was going to say if you are going to start nine months earlier not only music but perhaps wine and candlelight would help as well.

--- Laughter / Rires

4261 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Your experiences may be better in the realm of academe than we poor regulators. We have to try harder, you know.

4262 We have other applicants -- and I'm in no way suggesting you switch allegiance or fly both colours at once -- but we have other applicants here who have plans for education as well and have dedicated funds and plans for it.

4263 One of the questions that's come up is that we are a little uncertain of what the rules are or what is the sort of acceptance regime and I thought you might be able to help us a bit in that area. Some of the applicants have suggested they would give money to universities, some to music schools, some to high schools, to buy musical instruments, to set up mentoring programs.

4264 From your experience as an educator, can one just go down to the high schools and say, you know, "Here's a truckload of violins and a mentor and we would like to get going"? Or is this a long, horrible, slough through the education bureaucracy?

4265 We don't have a sense of how easy it is to be generous in this realm. Perhaps you can --

4266 MR. EDWARDS: Well, I think that there will be an intervenor tomorrow, a particular teacher from a high school, who will perhaps give you very concrete answers to that.

4267 I would suggest that most high schools in this city have what could be called "music parents associations", and they would gladly accept any generosities that came along. I don't necessarily think it has to flow through a school board, if that's what you are getting at.

4268 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So one could set up some sort of instrument rental program, or something separate and apart from the actual school board though, that would benefit high school students? You don't see that as a difficult --

4269 MR. EDWARDS: I don't. And, certainly, it's not a difficulty at the university level. If a company comes to us and says, "We've got $50,000 and we notice that your percussion equipment is so antiquated it's held together with string and sealing wax. Can we do something about it?", I don't have to ask the university president for permission to say yes to that.

4270 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's very enlightening.

4271 Thanks very much.

4272 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Professor Edwards.

4273 Mr. Secretary...?

4274 MR. BURNSIDE: I would like to now call the Calgary Choral Society, represented by Mary Ross.

4275 Please begin when you are ready.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

4276 MS ROSS: My name is Mary Ross. I'm a volunteer board member with the Calgary Choral Society. I'm here today to speak on behalf of The Peak and m.PLAY.

4277 The choir that I sing with has been around since before I was born. Before there was a Calgary Philharmonic Chorus in this city, or a Festival Chorus, there was the Calgary Choral Society, and it was "the" choir to belong to. The city has grown a lot since 1952, when this group was incorporated, and with that growth has come many other choirs.

4278 When I first joined, in 1986, we were an oratorio chorus. But in the early 1990s, we decided that it was time for us to make a change. There were so many groups performing that particular style of music -- and by that, I mean the oratorio type -- that we were hungry for something new, and so we decided to expand our repertoire and today we perform music influenced by the contemporary and world music scenes, things like Celtic, Latino, African and Black Gospel.

4279 We have managed to carve out a niche for ourselves performing this unique and new music and we have not looked back on it.

4280 It doesn't mean that we have abandoned the works of the classical masters, it simply means that we have certainly broadened our range.

4281 It should, therefore, come as no surprise that our membership would be in favour of a radio station like The Peak and m.PLAY. They focus on so many different musical styles, and that certainly is of interest to us.

4282 Calgary Choral Society has had a mission statement for many years, and while parts of it changed, the one thing that has remained constant is our belief that young artists need to be encouraged, and solo opportunities to promote their talents have always been available. As an oratorio choir for many years, that meant vocal soloists. But with the change in our repertoire and the inclusion of more world music, it's expanded to include instrumental soloists, ensembles and bands.

4283 Our concerts today are collaborative efforts and we are consistently amazed at the talent and knowledge these young people accompanying us on stage possess. Without them, our concerts would not be as enjoyable, either for us or for the audience.

4284 We have developed a following over the past five years and we believe that it is due, in part, to these young people.

4285 So, I say again, for the sake of these up-and-coming musicians of today, our membership would be in support of Peak radio. It is an opportunity for Canadian, and specifically Calgarian, musicians to be heard.

4286 Now, on to m.PLAY itself.

4287 When I see or hear the words "music mentoring", I can think only good thoughts. It doesn't matter if the musician's style is classical or operatic, contemporary, jazz, the blues, they need encouragement and guidance and exposure to people who believe in them. If sponsorship, grants and mentorship programs are available, then they will have the opportunity to focus on their music, whatever it may be.

4288 As I look at the learning, advocacy and youth aspects of m.PLAY, I should probably mention that I am employed as the assistant director of the Calgary Kiwanis Music Festival. We have the distinction of being the largest festival in Canada, with 15,000 youths participating in the festival over a two-week period. We hear bands, choirs, orchestras, ensembles, pianists, woodwind and brass soloists, classical guitarists, string players and vocalists. They are like the children that you saw in that m.PLAY video. Music plays a big part in their lives, helping them to learn how to focus, build their confidence and boost their self-esteem. Some will go on to make their living as musicians. We see them move from the local level, through to the provincial level and on to the national platform.

4289 First-rate musicians like Lyn Fortin, Guy Few, Michael Hope and Michael Kim, specifically coming from the City of Calgary, are past rose bowl winners of our festival.

4290 Others who participate will simply be grateful that music is a part of their lives. These are the children who are fortunate -- and I say they are fortunate because their exposure to music has already begun.

4291 With the benefits outlined in m.PLAY -- things like the band and choral literature, the videos and the clinics -- we can see where more youth who haven't had that opportunity would be able to tap in.

4292 I would like to think of all the possibilities, particularly in the schools, for those students who wouldn't otherwise be introduced to the world of music.

4293 One area I am particularly aware of is the junior high schools, where music programs have been cut severely and teachers who have the skills to lead choirs are forced to do so outside of school hours and with minimal resources. In many cases, there are no choirs in those schools.

4294 I see hope for these people in the initiatives outlined. The teachers need some backup because, right now, they are overwhelmed.

4295 Ultimately, it's the kids who end up losing because the teacher simply isn't able to share all they could with their students.

4296 At Calgary Choral, we talk about providing an atmosphere where people can experience the joy and camaraderie associated with choral singing. We want to see the youth in Calgary have that same experience today so that our tradition of singing choral music can, and will, continue. Some day, we will be too old to sing. But if this generation that's growing up around us today has the chance to be exposed to that positive atmosphere that I was talking about then, in our eyes, you've done a good thing.

4297 Thank you very much.

4298 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Ross.

4299 Commissioner Noël...?

4300 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you, Ms Ross.

4301 I'm surprised. I didn't think that Lyn Fortin was originally from Calgary.

4302 MS ROSS: No, she's not. I'm sorry. The last two gentlemen I mentioned.

4303 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.

4304 I don't have any questions. Your explanation is quite clear.

4305 MS ROSS: Okay. Great.

4306 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Noël.

4307 Mr. Secretary...?

4308 MR. BURNSIDE: I would now like to call the Calgary Opera Association, Brenda-Ann Marks.

4309 THE CHAIRPERSON: Proceed when you are ready, Ms Marks.

4310 MS MARKS: Thank you.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

4311 MS MARKS: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, and Members of the Commission.

4312 My name is Brenda-Ann Marks. I am development director at Calgary Opera.

4313 I am here today in support of the application submitted by Craig Broadcast Systems and Harvard Developments Incorporated.

4314 Calgary Opera currently has a host of effective programs for the promotion of Canadian talent, educational programs and audience development initiatives. We could certainly use a lot more on-air and financial support, in this case from Craig Broadcasting and Harvard Developments, to further enhance and develop these initiatives.

4315 Based on our current relationship with A-Channel, the television station owned and operated by Craig Broadcast Systems, the Calgary Opera is very impressed with the commitment to the community that is clearly current practice for this organization. A-Channel shows great support for Calgary Opera in that its crews are present at all our community events, fundraisers and media opportunities, such as dress rehearsals. Through this presence, Calgary Opera frequently receives very favourable exposure in the community. This station definitely does its share in the marketplace in terms of promoting Calgary Opera and other community organizations to the Calgary public.

4316 As Calgary Opera's mission indicates, our organization exists:

"To engage our audience and enhance our community through the magic of opera."

4317 We have and continue to work hard to dispel the notion that opera is elitist and stuffy. We are intent on demonstrating how opera plays an important role in our community through its contribution to the quality of life for our citizens.

4318 While everyone may not attend live opera performances at the Jubilee Auditorium, all are affected by this art form in a direct or indirect way on a continuous basis. So much of popular culture, i.e. music, dance and drama, as seen live, on stage, heard on radio, has its roots in this all-encompassing art form and is clearly in evidence based on the increasing rate that younger audience members are attending our performances. Young people are enjoying opera because they are beginning to understand and appreciate the relevancy of opera in their day-to-day lives.

4319 Promoting Canadian talent. One important mandate at Calgary Opera is the development and promotion of young Canadian talent through training in the Calgary Opera Chorus program. Since its formation 28 years ago, Calgary Opera has offered training and experience to young talented Calgarians, and other Canadians for that matter, as members of the chorus in opera productions, and as a result of this opportunity several have successfully moved on in their careers to become recognized and renowned performers in other Canadian, U.S. and European centres, for example, Richard Margison, Tracey Dahl, Gordon Geitz, Noreen Burgess, Francis Ginzer.

4320 Petro-Canada has been an affiliated sponsor with the Calgary Opera Chorus program. However, Calgary Opera is seeking additional funding to expand the program to attract additional singers and we would be most grateful to receive additional funding support from Craig Broadcast Systems and Harvard Developments Inc. if their FM radio station becomes an actuality in our community.

4321 Calgary Opera, in conjunction with the Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra, has recently appointed a composer-in-residence for a two-year term. A Canadian, John Estacio will focus on enhancing our existing education programs and has also begun composing music for a new opera that will be developed in conjunction with The Banff Centre, with celebrated playwright John Murrell writing the libretto.

4322 These exciting new initiatives representing leading research and development in Canadian opera and will provide immense opportunities for the development of new Canadian talent in the arts.

4323 With extended funding for this program, the arts in Alberta will flourish and will help to keep Alberta at the leading edge of our industry in Canada.

4324 Audience development. The increase in popularity among young people is happening because of the many audience development and educational programs in place and in need of expanding at Calgary Opera. At Calgary Opera we understand the importance of educating school students about opera and its impact so that they will become our future audience. To this end, Calgary Opera has many programs in place to address this need, including:

4325 Let's create an opera. Each year Calgary Opera works with four or five schools from the private and public systems where our specialists and their teachers help students create an opera themselves. This includes everything from concept to composition of music, writing the libretto, production and performance. Some schools include the entire student body, and others include one or two grades only. All aspects of the curriculum are included in the opera, including social studies, the sciences and language arts.

4326 In the second phase of Let's Create An Opera, students from schools which are being introduced to the program, attend Calgary Opera dress rehearsals, are invited by opera specialists and other schools involved in the process to attend their performances.

4327 Calgary Opera is currently receiving funding from a corporate sponsor, but we would very much like to expand this program with additional funding support from Craig Broadcast Systems and Harvard Developments Inc.

4328 The Calgary Opera students-only dress rehearsals is another example. Students in our community attend the final dress rehearsal of each opera presentation. We have three a season. Students from elementary, junior and senior high schools attend with teachers at a cost of $5.00 a student.

4329 Additional funding again would be most welcome in order that Calgary Opera could expand this program to offer more and more Calgary students in our community the chance to attend live opera.

4330 We are going to be presenting Turtle Wakes in February. This is a successful children's play based on the story of The Frank Slide written by Rick McNair about the huge 1903 rockslide at Turtle Mountain. This disaster claimed 70 lives in the sleeping coal-mining town of Frank in the Crowsnest Pass.

4331 The Turtle Wakes was commissioned by Calgary Opera. It is the collaboration between the University of Calgary professor and composer Alan Bell, and playwright Rick McNair, who wrote the libretto. We will be jointly presenting this presentation with Quest Theatre at the Jack Singer Concert Hall in February. We hope to develop a tour program to the surrounding districts based on the response and reaction we received from these performances. Again, substantial funding from the community will be required to pursue future developments in this project.

4332 Aimed at senior elementary, junior and high school students, this Turtle Wakes program includes opportunities for integration of core school curricula with the opera art form. Students will essentially study the opera as part of their school curriculum, including social studies, language arts and the sciences. Depending on students' and teachers' interests, they will pursue additional and enhanced activities and interests relating to the opera and its theme.

4333 The Turtle Wakes was created as part of Calgary Opera's mandate to develop new Canadian operatic works in keeping with our mandate. Using local expertise and talent, Calgary Opera commissioned this outstanding work which helps in moving the opera community further into the vital area of research and development for Canadian opera. It is essential if our art form is to remain relevant and in demand for the consumer in this new century.

4334 The Calgary Opera Look-In is another program, which is an invitation to the Calgary public to come back stage and see how an opera is put together on a Saturday afternoon when the opera is not in progress. They get to see how costumes are fitted, hair is done, make-up is done for the artists, lighting, sets and all the rest. Artists demonstrate their skills, after which the audience is invited to a milk and cookies reception.

4335 Again, more funding is needed to enhance and promote this program more fully to the public.

4336 In conclusion, based on Calgary Opera's objectives to develop new Canadian talent, expand our reach and develop new and additional audiences for professional opera in our community, we fully endorse the application of Craig Broadcast Systems and Harvard Developments Inc. to establish a new FM radio station. Based on their intent and mandate, their involvement in our community will help considerably in our ongoing attempts to achieve our goals and objectives.

4337 Thank you.

4338 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Marks.

4339 Commissioner Noël will lead the questions.

4340 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Good afternoon.

4341 From what I can read in your notes here, the Calgary Look-In is it -- I am looking for my words in English today, but is it aimed at all public or mostly young public.

4342 MS MARKS: At the general public, families mainly.

4343 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Families mainly. Because there was the milk and cookie lunch after.

4344 MS MARKS: Well, that's the bribe.

4345 COMMISSIONER NOËL: That's the bribe.

4346 How much does it cost to have all the programs working in the way you would like them to work?

4347 MS MARKS: Well currently I would say that we are getting about $100,000 in terms of total sponsorship for these programs. In each case --

4348 COMMISSIONER NOËL: A year.

4349 MS MARKS: A year. In each case, there is a lot of room for each program, and with additional funding for each one of them we could enhance and make the program far more effective.

4350 COMMISSIONER NOËL: And you are looking at additional contributions in what range? As much as possible?

4351 MS MARKS: Well, always as much as possible, yes.

4352 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you very much.

4353 I don't have any further questions.

4354 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Marks, Commissioner for the questions.

4355 Mr. Secretary.

4356 MR. BURNSIDE: I would now like to call MidSun Music Parents Society, Mr. Jim Finkbeiner.

4357 Please proceed when you are ready.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

4358 MR. FINKBEINER: Thank you very much.

4359 You have heard from Professor Malcom Edwards. He is at the top of the food chain while I am at the bottom of the food chain.

4360 I am a first instrumental music teacher that most of the students who go through my school see.

4361 I would like to tell you about my music program and my students. I would like to tell you how successful musicians can be made, also where we will get our current funding and how the Harvard/Craig group can be helpful to us.

4362 My name is Jim Finkbeiner. I am here on behalf of the MidSun Music Parents Society to speak to you concerning the Craig/Harvard application.

4363 I am the music teacher at MidSun Junior High School which serves the communities of Sundance and Midnapore in southeast Calgary.

4364 MidSun is the largest junior high school in Calgary with 330 students currently enrolled in the band program and this one is probably the largest of its kind in western Canada.

4365 I feel that we have a successful music program because so many of our students love playing music and being in bands. Fostering a lifelong love for and an appreciation of all kinds of music is the cornerstone of my teaching philosophy.

4366 Music is an art form, but it is also a skill, one that needs to be developed. I have taught music to 10 year olds and to 75 year olds throughout Calgary and have learned that it takes years to master the skills of music.

4367 Maintaining interest and enthusiasm in my students in our present culture of immediate gratification is hard work. Being a band is enjoyable and requires hard work but nothing worth having comes easily. Wayne Gretzky said that he wished all hockey players could have the feeling that he had when he first help up the Stanley Cup. He also said that the reason it was so special is that not everyone could win the Stanley Cup. He knew all of the effort that it took to achieve.

4368 I think everyone can and should have that wonderful feeling that being successful in music and in band provides, if we can provide the opportunities that lead to that success.

4369 In my first year teaching band, I had 20 beginning students and ten of them went on to university to study music as performers, composers, technicians and teachers. I am proud of all of my students. They constantly return to reminisce about past trips and experiences that have had a major impact in their lives.

4370 I work very hard to give those students a love of music and opportunities to improve their abilities through performing, attending concerts, learning from professionals in individual and group lessons and attending festivals. Band camps are wonderful opportunities for students to grow emotionally, socially and musically.

4371 In a three-day retreat, my students learn more than I could teach them in a month of classes.

4372 These activities, however, cost money and time. My annual budget is half of the budget of the rest of the school combined. Some of my colleagues question this amount and wonder why we need to have such a sum of money. I receive only $3,000 from our school budget, less than $10 per student to fund the entire year's worth of enrichment activities.

4373 I recently took 154 grade seven band students to see the Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra perform at the Jack Singer concert hall. It was an excellent opportunity to hear our city's premier performers. Since my students have been playing their instruments for only three weeks, they appreciated the talent and became motivated by the fact that most of those musicians started playing their instruments at the same age that my students are now.

4374 This concert was subsidized by private corporations, but still cost $9.00 per student. My entire enrichment budget for these students for the year was used up by one activity.

4375 It is enrichment opportunities such as this that enable me to take my students beyond average. Many people in our community are looking to get an edge in today's competitive world. Whether it is in sports or the arts, we must support and intervene in the early years to ensure top notch performers.

4376 The school I spoke of earlier that had such a high number of outstanding musicians shut down their music program this year. When I started there were 55 students in band, and when I finished there were 120 taking music, and I am certain that it was the extra enrichment opportunities that kept students in the program. Now, there is little chance of having any musicians from that school going on to the local high school which is also now threatening that program as well.

4377 To enable our students to grow and compete at the top level, we offer as many activities as possible. We try to have properly functioning equipment, to bring in guest artists, clinicians and guest conductors. We perform wherever possible and we try to keep students involved and enthused with our program.

4378 To achieve this aim, we have a music parents society which charges a fee to partially supplement these activities. In many schools this is difficult to do without excluding some students due to financial difficulties. As a result, many music programs fundraise.

4379 We charge a fee and we fundraise all year to provide students with these opportunities. It is not easy asking your students to peddle things such as chocolate bars, grapefruits, candles, pizzas, t-shirts, cookie dough, Christmas wrap and Easter items, but we do. Some schools have found that they can make a lot more money by having parents and students work at bingo halls and casinos. The current rage is to apply for grants from the provincial government through the Calgary Community Lottery Board.

4380 As an educator, a performer and a user of the arts in Calgary, it saddens me that in our prosperous province and country, we have had to resort to funding our art students from peddling ware or obtaining profits from gambling or tobacco and alcohol taxes.

4381 You the members of the Board have a unique opportunity to help fund local fine arts organizations, both professional and amateur, by granting the application made by Craig/Harvard. Would it not be wonderful to give clean money to groups who need it? I do not want to see any more schools shut down their music programs because of funding issues.

4382 The Calgary Board of Education cut its music supervisor and repair technician staff a few years ago. These people were there to assist and maintain the music programs of all public schools in Calgary. We are very fortunate that many years ago a loan pool of instruments was established in Calgary to allow students to rent an instrument at a very small portion of the actual cost of that instrument. This pool is maintained by one person. The loan pool has allowed many students the opportunity to play in band who would not otherwise be able to do so. Over 300 of my students rent from the instrument loan pool.

4383 I am in a position where I have 20 kids wanting to play the tuba. Other music teachers shake their heads when they find that out. The problem is I cannot get enough tubas from the pool to give to my students and very few would be able to afford $6,500 to buy their own.

4384 Craig Broadcasting and the Calgary Board of Education business liaison have been in contact to see where help is needed.

4385 Craig/Harvard has asked people like me to see where their proposal can have the most impact. I believe it is in the classroom and in such areas such as the loan pool which services over 12,000 students in Calgary.

4386 I am pleased to see that Craig/Harvard Broadcasting is taking the approach to find out where the real need is and is carefully consulting before creating a plan that will address the actual needs of students in music.

4387 I am also pleased to see that they are a local organization and not some company dropping in from outside of Alberta. I have had many dealings with its television company, A-Channel, and have been very impressed with its dedication to the local and amateur activities in our city. Sports, entertainment and community issues are obviously a high priority to this company and I find that refreshing and laudable.

4388 Beginner and amateur musical groups are also featured and not just the elite in our city. My students still talk about being able to perform on the Big Breakfast show broadcast during Christmas last year.

4389 In closing, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today and would like to remind you that opportunities to support our youth in the arts are limited. You have that ability to help develop and foster excellence in a positive and meaningful way. Students in Calgary can produce outstanding results if they are given the right tools and opportunities.

4390 Thank you.

4391 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Finkbeiner.

4392 Commissioner McKendry will lead the questioning of your intervention.

4393 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Thank you, Mr. Chair and thank you for coming this afternoon.

4394 One of the areas I wanted to explore with you was an area that Commissioner Langford asked somebody about a little while ago and I notice there is a reference in your comment here to the Calgary Board of Education business liaison.

4395 What I am interested in is how easy is it for a corporation to donate money to a school or to the Board that would be dedicate to the music program? Is there a bureaucracy that it has to go through that runs the risk of having things bog down or is it something that the Board and the schools are welcoming and looking for?

4396 MR. FINKBEINER: It could get bogged down. As has been said, different societies, and the Music Parent Society of which my president here is supporting us today. Each school ha its own parent society and parent organization and if they decide to give to the loan pool, for instance, then they would go through the business liaison and if they directed that money right to the loan pool, I am certain that 100 per cent of that money would go right there.

4397 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: So you don't -- I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying. A company, whether it be Craig or any other company, that wanted to donate money to a school, they would deal with the parents association at the school or would they deal with the school or would they deal with the Board?

4398 MR. FINKBEINER: They could deal with any of those groups. For instance, we have in our Music Parent Society provisions for people to have gifts in kind, for people to make donations. We are actually a registered charitable organization to enable people who want to give things, equipment, supplies, help to us specifically. If they would like to give it to our school, then they deal with the school council and once again they just have to make that donation straight to there.

4399 If they want to donate to all schools, which I know that Craig/Harvard wants to help out all schools, whether they be affluent or not, they would deal with the business liaison who would help them to be able to direct those funds.

4400 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Your school, and you in particular, seem to have a very active music program. Is that typical of the schools here in Calgary or are you unusual?

4401 MR. FINKBEINER: We are probably near the top in terms of the number of students, but I do know that most schools and most teachers who are my colleagues attempt to run the same kinds of programs with many rehearsals and trips and extra activities -- go to see the opera, go to see the symphony, have performers and guest clinicians in. It is just a matter of funding, and if they have a strong music parents group it makes it a little bit easier. If someone wants to come and give us that money or help us out, that is much easier for us.

4402 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: You say that your budget is $100,000 and you get $3,000 of that from the school budget. So I take it you are raising the difference, $97,000, through chocolate bars and the things that you cited.

4403 MR. FINKBEINER: We attempt to get that much. Normally, we get about half to three quarters of that and the parents have to pay the rest if we decide to go on a special trip.

4404 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: I see.

4405 Thanks very much.

4406 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Langford.

4407 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Just one more question following up on Commissioner McKendry's line of enquiry.

4408 On the other side, rather than giving funds -- and again I am exploring these other difficulties, other roadblocks -- is it easy to set up programs to bring people into the school? Do you have qualification problems, union problems, or whatever?

4409 So if somebody wants to set up a mentoring program, put some funding into that, bring in teachers to do master classes, or whatever, can that be done or are there roadblocks there that we should worry about?

4410 MR. FINKBEINER: None whatsoever. Most of us usually call up a group of people, we say we need some specialists to come in and work. Just last Friday, I had a specialist come in to work with my students. This afternoon, the last period just before I left, I had a specialist come in to work with my students, and both are hired on behalf of the Music Parents Association, but that is a typical normal thing that happens in most schools. If they decide to do that, there is no problem, there is no bureaucracy to go through. People just find that as part of the enrichment of the program.

4411 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thanks very much.

4412 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Finkbeiner. There is no further questions.

4413 MR. FINKBEINER: Thank you very much.

4414 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would now like to call the Mount Royal College Foundation, Mr. Mike Walters.

4415 Please proceed when you are ready, Mr. Walters.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

4416 MR. WALTERS: Thank you very much.

4417 It is indeed a pleasure to be here this afternoon to speak in support of the application by Craig Broadcast Systems and Harvard Development Inc.

4418 I am the Director of Development at Mount Royal College and I wish that I had with me today the Director of our conservatory because I am going to be speaking to a program operating from the conservatory. He is unable to attend today so I will certainly do my best.

4419 As you may or may not be aware, Mount Royal College has been around in Calgary for an awful long time and has developed into one of Canada's leading undergraduate colleges.

4420 We are celebrating our 90th anniversary this year and our premier program that began right when the college began is the Mount Royal College conservatory and it is that to which I would like to speak a little bit further today.

4421 We are particularly pleased that Craig and Harvard have teamed together to submit this application. They both have an outstanding reputation, certainly in their broadcasting business, but more importantly to us at the College a great record of service to the community and support to the community and as they approached us to ask us about how they could help and was there something that they could be involved with at the College, we were pleased to meet and talk with them about some of the opportunities that we have available.

4422 As the Director of Development, of course, I am very aware of the severe competition for funding, both in terms of finding funds from the private sector as well as, of course, the cutting back of support, whether it has been governmental or otherwise, for some of the important programs in our community.

4423 It is certainly no different at our institution and in particular for the conservatory. A very, very exciting program originated there four years ago called the Music Bridge Program, the materials of which you are reviewing now.

4424 This program is probably at the other end of the scale in terms of the music program we heard in a prior presentation, not necessarily in the age of the participants, but perhaps in the level of their development as young artists.

4425 This program brings together 20 of the most outstanding young musicians from across Canada and pairs them and matches them with another 20 of the most outstanding young artists from China and other parts of the world, to spend a good portion of the summer together making music at Mount Royal College, making, learning and ultimately producing a CD.

4426 This program brings world-class faculty from around the world who obviously have an inherent interest in developing this kind of talent and helping to nurture it and the program has been incredibly successful.

4427 Some of the artists already who participated, the young artists who are still students, are already making appearances on the world's stage. They have gone on to places such as the Juilliard School with full scholarship. They have performed at the Kiwanis Music Festival. They have played with various symphonies. They have gone to the Curtis Institute. You name it, these are young people who are going onto the very best and are outstanding at what they do.

4428 One of the very incredible thing that has raised the bar at this program is not to just focus on Canadian talent, although obviously this is a Canadian program, but we have found by expanding the effect of bringing together people with an international background, some interesting things have occurred.

4429 For example, those coming from China have a tremendous disciplined approach to their music, very technically precise, compared with our Canadian students who are perhaps a little bit more creative, have a spirit to their music. We bring together those two elements, both learn from one another and grow in the process. And it has just been absolutely an amazing thing.

4430 One of the final outcomes of this particular program is to have a concert down here at the Jack Singer concert hall, produce a CD. Last summer's performance featured Pinchas Zuckerman performing with students from the Music Bridge Program.

4431 So it has been an outstanding program. Canadian Airlines was one of the sponsors. They no longer are. We have a major sponsor who is supporting the international students to come. We are lacking a Canadian sponsor to pick up the other part of this program. The College is currently doing so at great expense and particularly now in light of the loss of Canadian Airlines as a sponsor.

4432 So we are particularly pleased that Craig and Harvard have been excited about this program and are willing to lend their support of the Canadian component of this program to help ensure that it continues.

4433 So to that end I will make my presentation very brief today and see if there are other questions, but we are certainly pleased with the indication of support from Craig and Harvard for this particular program. We are proud and excited of what this program represents and feel it would be a wonderful thing to have the support to continue.

4434 Thank you.

4435 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Walters.

4436 Commissioner McKendry will question your intervention.

4437 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4438 Just by way of introduction, I think certainly one of the impressions we are going to take away from our hearing here is that Calgary certainly is a tremendous source of a wide variety of music. The intervenors we are hearing from, including yourself, certainly represent a wide range of music here in Calgary.

4439 You may have mentioned this, but if you did I didn't catch it: What are the age of the students, these top 20 students that you bring in?

4440 MR. WALTERS: Twelve to eighteen.

4441 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: What do you think is the relationship between music education in elementary and high schools and the generation or the production of these 20 elite students? Is it important that there be music programs in elementary schools and high schools in order to produce --

4442 MR. WALTERS: It is incredibly important. Obviously, as everyone has discussed, it is the special ones who, given the opportunity, will continue to develop their skills and talents. If that opportunity doesn't exist, they cannot.

4443 The conservatory, one of the things that it attempts to do is provide those kinds of cultural resources to the community that don't exist elsewhere. It serves alone, each year, 4,500 students in all the various disciplines, musically and theatre and otherwise. So it is a tremendous resource to this community and has been, from a cultural perspective, for the past 90 years.

4444 The relationship with high schools and other schools is tremendous. Many of the students who are coming to take lessons are students at schools around the community who are taking lessons to further their studies at the conservatory as a place where they might do that. We have relationships with a number of schools in the city with some partnership programs. So there is an awful lot of linkage, whichever way you look at it.

4445 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Don't you think sometimes people feel that an elite musician will surface regardless of whether or not there is music education? You know, an elite writer will emerge because they are just great writers and it will happen. But I take it that it is important to have -- I think one of the previous intervenors talked about the base of the pyramid there in order to ensure that these elite musicians are brought into music at an early age. Is that --

4446 MR. WALTERS: Absolutely. We could draw an analogy to many things, but musically I think it would hold true as well that there are many, many students, young people with musical interest and talent and, depending on the circumstances in which they find themselves and the opportunities that are presented to them, it depends, in many cases, how far they go with that.

4447 This particular program, of course, presents them with the ultimate in terms of the opportunity to see what is possible and to see where they might go. So the chance to work alongside a world class musician, the chance to be stimulated and challenged on a daily basis by others who have the level of talent themselves, is a situation that is difficult to create anywhere else in the system. So without it perhaps it might be fair to say that they would not go as far as they otherwise would.

4448 So in terms of developing Canadian talent, it is just a very, very exciting thing and I think we are only beginning to see how it might go and where this talent is eventually going to end up.

4449 As I say, it has been four years so far. We are facing our fifth year coming up now.

4450 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Thank you very much.

4451 MR. WALTERS: Thank you.

4452 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner McKendry.

4453 Commissioner Noël.

4454 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Mr. Walters, is there any chance that Air Canada could come and help you?

4455 MR. WALTERS: Believe me, those discussions are seriously under way.

4456 COMMISSIONER NOËL: I'm sure.

4457 On another point, I see here that we will have, maybe later today or tomorrow morning, Mr. John Hyde, who is the Artistic Director of Jazz Studies at Mount Royal College, and he will come here to support the Telemedia application.

4458 Do you have any problems with that?

4459 MR. WALTERS: Absolutely no problems. We would like you to approve them both, actually.

--- Laughter / Rires

4460 MR. WALTERS: But none at all. The smooth jazz -- there is a jazz program contained in the conservatory as well, so obviously the connection between the smooth jazz application and our jazz program at the conservatory is --

4461 COMMISSIONER NOËL: The other half of the formation.

4462 MR. WALTERS: Exactly. There we go.

4463 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you very much.

4464 MR. WALTERS: We complete the circle.

4465 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.

4466 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Walters.

4467 MR. WALTERS: Thank you.

4468 THE CHAIRPERSON: There are no further questions.

4469 Mr. Secretary.

4470 MR. BURNSIDE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4471 I have just been informed that the next two intervenors on the list are not here yet. They are expected.

4472 So we will go to Intervention No. 25, Mr. Randall Way, representing Edmonton Celebrate Canada.

--- Pause / Pause

4473 THE CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed when you are ready, Mr. Way.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

4474 MR. WAY: Thank you.

4475 Chairman Williams and Commissioners, I am Randall Way, the volunteer Co-Chair of the Greater Edmonton Celebrate Canada Committee.

4476 With more than 1,500 other volunteers we produce one of the nation's most popular celebrations of Canada Day, National Aboriginal Day and the Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day. Ours is known as a model of co-operation for our work with the local French and Aboriginal communities.

4477 I am here today to speak in favour of Newcap Broadcasting's application for a new adult contemporary modern rock station for Calgary.

4478 Your approval would allow a new sound participant in this major market and would allow Newcap to extend its strong support of Canadian values, Canadian diversity and our French and Aboriginal heritage to southern Alberta.

4479 Forty years ago one of the world's great communicators said: Do not ask what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.

4480 Well, Newcap Broadcasting more than asks, but acts by freely promoting Canada and building civic and national pride.

4481 Canadian Heritage Minister Sheila Copps asked five years ago that our provincial and territorial committees expand the celebration of Canada from only Canada Day to including the National Aboriginal Day and Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day. For Edmonton, we set our goal to be not only the flagship for Alberta, but to be a model for the nation and the celebration of Canada.

4482 According to an Angus Reid poll that is included in your kit there, the graph, last year Alberta led the nation in participation in Alberta. Edmonton is the flagship location for Celebrate Canada with more than 120,000 citizens and visitors actively participating in just our events.

4483 One of the reasons for this high number of active participants is the support of Newcap stations in our celebrations. Their support, along with local newspapers, has provided the incentive for more than 17 diverse community groups to unite and work together.

4484 Newcap station support has helped us achieve a nation-leading participation rate and instill in Albertans a sense of pride in their country and community.

4485 With Newcap stations we promote Canadian values, Canadian diversity and our national heritage. These celebrations build and strengthen national pride and unity and make our country a better place to work, live and play.

4486 The significance of support by Newcap's Mix 96 in the Edmonton market is that they are the lead local broadcaster with its saturation ad campaign support for Celebrate Canada. They have given more than just TSAs and advertising time, but the actual time and skills of their station engineer, their program director, Steve Jones, and morning drive on-air talent who all volunteer on Canada Day.

4487 They promote not only their own sponsored events, the Canada Day pyro-musical, but all our Canada Day events, as well as our events on National Aboriginal Day and Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day.

4488 This past Tuesday, I spoke with my counterpart here in Calgary, Ms Ann Wilson, the chairperson for Celebrate Canada in Calgary, and she would welcome a Newcap station to help promote Calgary's celebration of Canada as they have in Edmonton.

4489 Also, I can attest that Newcap stations in Edmonton do much more for the betterment of our community than solely promoting Celebrate Canada. In my past position as executive director of the Downtown Business Association of Edmonton, Newcap, through CKRA, has been a long-term ongoing supporter of downtown revitalization. They sponsored the turning on of the downtown Christmas lights display and the Alberta Family Day Holiday.

4490 In addition, I can attest to their support for Edmonton's major annual festival, Klondike Days, and the Canadian Finals Rodeo. Both events are as significant for our city as the CNE is for Toronto or the Stampede for Calgary. These Edmonton events are stronger because of Newcap's Edmonton Radio Group.

4491 My experience is that Newcap usually leads other broadcast outlets to be first with meaningful support of community events and activities. The distinguished support and passionate commitment that Newcap brings to improving the community should not be denied to our Alberta neighbours here in Calgary. For this reason, I heartily support Newcap's application for a new FM radio service. I urge this panel to look favourably upon the application submitted by this community-minded company. Their actions exemplify a high standard of excellent corporate citizenship.

4492 In closing, may I say that we at Celebrate Canada next year will be celebrating the 100th anniversary of Marconi receiving the first transatlantic radio transmission on Signal Hill in St. John's, Newfoundland. Surprisingly, in those hundred years, not one atlantic Canadian company has been granted a new radio licence west of New Brunswick.

4493 As the Chamber Brothers once sang, time has come today. The time to mark the centennial and build ties across Canada by you approving Newfoundland capital, Newcap, investing in the opening of a new Alberta station in Calgary.

4494 Mr. Chairman, panel, thank you.

4495 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Way.

4496 Could you please maybe give us a flavour of what Newcap adds to National Aboriginal Day and Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day and Canada Day in the Edmonton market in your experience. What did they do this year, for example?

4497 MR. WAY: This year, importantly, what they do is that they cover our events at the legislature grounds with announcements, with activities. We work with them in the promotion of the events. The feedback is of great importance to the members, to the volunteers that are working, that their events are not being neglected because with both Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day and National Aboriginal Day, we are involved in an outreach not to only their own community, which they will attract in most cases anyway, but to the people that are not part or directly a part of their community, to the citizens at large.

4498 Newcap, through their activities, through their promotions, through their provision of, as they say, on-air personality talking about it and their support of the events we draw many more people, particularly, again, non-aboriginal, non-French, franco-Canadian, that come to these events.

4499 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Way.

4500 Commissioners?

4501 Okay. Thank you very much for your presentation.

4502 MR. WAY: Thank you.

4503 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary.

4504 MR. BURNSIDE: I would now like to call Cameron Ambrose representing Exit 303.

4505 Mr. Ambrose doesn't appear to be here now, so I will move on to the next intervenor.

4506 P.J. L'Heureux.

4507 That intervenor does not appear to be in the room at the moment.

4508 The next intervenor is Kevin Willms.

--- Pause / Pause

4509 MR. BURNSIDE: Mr. Chair, I called out of order and I want to apologize to Mr. Willms, we will let him go ahead and then after that it would be the Caribbean Community Council of Calgary because of the shifting that has gone on today.

4510 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's fine.

--- Pause / Pause

4511 THE CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed when you are ready, Mr. Willms.

4512 MR. WILLMS: Thank you very much.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

4513 MR. WILLMS: Mr. Chairman, Commissioners and CRTC staff, thank you for this opportunity on to intervene on behalf of the Telemedia (West) application for a Smooth Jazz Calgary 98.5 FM.

4514 I have some notes in front of me, which you have copies of, and as I listen to other people I'm finding I am going to need to diverge a little bit, but I am going to use them anyway, otherwise I am going to diverge too much.

4515 My name is Kevin Willms. I represent high school music education as both a high school music teacher at Ernest Manning High School and as the Vice President of the Alberta International Band Festival. This is the largest regional festival for high school and community bands in Canada.

4516 I also represent adult community education in Calgary as the Artistic Director for the Westwinds Music Society. I would like to underscore their representation by telling you that a meeting was held at Bowness High School in late September to discuss the proposal for Smooth Jazz Calgary. It was attended by high school band directors from many of the strong music programs in the city. Because of the need for a jazz station in this community and its benefits to jazz education in Calgary, this group unanimously endorses the Telemedia application.

4517 Furthermore, in my roles as Artistic Director of the Westwinds Music Society, the largest adult community music organization in the province, and as Vice President of The Alberta International Band Festival, I have been authorized to pledge the support of those organizations for this application.

4518 High school music programs in Calgary are extremely strong. There are numerous healthy, successful programs in the Calgary area. I think I need to define that for you a little bit better than what I have done in my notes, particularly in light of some of what we have heard about the need for funding and those kinds of things.

4519 Certainly we are always in need of funding. Strong programs in Calgary are operating with annual budgets from music parents and schools and grants combined, often well over $100,000 per year to run the programs, sometimes in excess of $200,000 per year.

4520 So in defining what "healthy and successful" means, it means that many of them are finding that in some way, shape or form, within this community, largely through the support of successful music parent organizations.

4521 They are also defined as successful to me in the sense that they have large enrolments in their programs relative to the total school population. In my associations with other directors in other cities, I have particular knowledge of much of what is going on in Edmonton at the moment. I have some fairly specific knowledge -- based on colleagues that I know in the Seattle and Vancouver areas, recognizing Seattle would not be Canadian -- and I can say very confidently that relative to the rest of the country, Calgary is very healthy. That doesn't say that things couldn't always be better and that the base needs to be broadened.

4522 In saying that, I have no intentions of undermining anyone who tells you that at the elementary and junior high levels and at other levels more support is not needed because that is definitely not the case.

4523 I hope I have been clear with that.

4524 I have given you Handout "A" there, listing the majority of the high school music programs in Calgary and area, and I have given you some specific data from two of the typical programs to show you kind of where the enrolment is at in most programs.

4525 The percentage of students enrolled in high school music programs of the overall population of the school is remarkably consistent within all of the schools on this attachment. In fact, the low end would be roughly 10 per cent; the high end would be roughly 15 per cent of high school students are in music in this community.

4526 Moving on, the strength of these programs is further supported by the fact that the Alberta International Band Festival in Calgary -- we have a sister festival in Edmonton as well -- is the largest regional non-profit high school and community band festival in Canada.

4527 Handout "B" is one of the pages of the latest press release of that festival, containing some of the data supporting that.

4528 To tell you more about the programs, our high school music programs are full of students who are very sophisticated listeners and consumers of jazz music and many other genres. Many have large personal jazz CD collections, while others utilize libraries and the Internet to access this music.

4529 It is a fact that at Ernest Manning High School we maintain a fairly large jazz listening library, and that for most of our school year it is typical for 40 per cent of that library to be signed out to music students.

4530 Our students also readily attend live performances. However, these opportunities are few, because a typical high school student cannot frequent a typical jazz club where you must be of legal drinking age, nor will their parents support or approve of this.

4531 Formal jazz concerts in concert halls are typically quite extensive and out of reach for the average high school student. Despite this, many do attend showcase concerts when the opportunity arises. They also attend café-style live performances as often as they occur.

4532 This was the case two weeks ago when 15-year-old saxophonist Curtis MacDonald held a CD release party for his new CD "Play Time". Beat Niq Café was filled to capacity for this event. At least half of the audience was of high school age.

4533 Another example of this is at the "Jazz Cabaret" of the Alberta International Band Festival. The event features Calgary's top professional big band, the Prime Time Band, along with the jazz adjudicators from our festival. The event has been sold out every year since its inception. Again, over half of the audience have been high school students.

4534 The final example of this is an annual jazz showcase event presented by Ernest Manning and Lord Beaverbrook High Schools as a joint project. This concert features the "Jazz I" bands from both high schools, along with a major international guest artist.

4535 Previous artists have included Tommy Banks and Bill Watrous. The event is always sold out. Yet again at least half of the audience has been high school students, some of whom do not attend these two schools.

4536 These events underscore the level of high school jazz education in Calgary. Curtis MacDonald is a student at Ernest Manning High School. He is the second student in two years from this program to release a CD, with at least two more students scheduled to do this within the current school year.

4537 You have been given, somewhere in a box here, a copy of this CD "Play Time", as well as "Celebration 2000", another CD featuring much of the music program at Ernest Manning, and "Showcase 2000", featuring some of the outstanding bands from the Alberta International Band Festival.

4538 These CDs are great examples of the level of sophistication of our high school music programs and the students enrolled in them.

4539 The adult community music programs in Calgary are experiencing similar success. Members of these not-for-profit societies include parents of high school students and other adults in Calgary who recognize the value of continuous learning and the arts, particularly music.

4540 Handout "C" provides you with an overview of some of this and specific details on enrolment within the Westwinds Music Society.

4541 Through their educational endeavours, these amateur adult musicians have also become sophisticated listeners and consumers of music. Many of them are directly involved in jazz. The natural extension of this is that they attend more jazz performances, purchase more jazz recordings, and will continue to do so for many years to come.

4542 As you are already aware, Telemedia has made a substantial financial commitment to jazz education at the high school level. It is very impressive to educators that this proposal is so consistent with our goals in high school jazz programs.

4543 Telemedia has identified several areas that are great needs to us and addressed them very effectively.

4544 I can tell you with full confidence that this plan will have a direct and significant impact on the jazz classrooms in Calgary. Furthermore, it is based on the current priorities of educators and will enhance their efforts rather than redirecting them.

4545 To conclude, amateur musicians and music lovers of Calgary have a huge need for a jazz radio station. While most other genres of music are well represented through the current radio stations, access to jazz radio is currently limited to a few hours on weekends and occasionally very late at night on weekdays.

4546 This station proposes a format which will directly relate to the mandated curriculum for jazz studies at the high school level. I urge you to approve the Telemedia (West) proposal for smoothjazzcalgary.

4547 Thank you.

4548 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Willms. I appreciate, in following through your speaking notes, that you edited some of your remarks out.

4549 I just want to assure you that your entire written presentation will form part of the record.

4550 Commissioner Cram will lead the questioning of your intervention.

4551 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you for coming, Mr. Willms.

4552 I was a little confused by where you were going with this.

4553 You are a high school teacher, and you teach all types of music.

4554 MR. WILLMS: I teach a choral program, a concert band program and a jazz program at the school.

4555 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The International Band Festival, which is the largest regional festival for high school and community bands in Canada, after the Moose Jaw Band Festival quite in Saskatchewan, that is all types of music.

4556 MR. WILLMS: That is specifically concert band and jazz band.

4557 In other words, unlike the Kiwanis Music Festival, which was discussed earlier, we serve a bit of a different function. We don't have soloists. We don't have piano players, et cetera.

4558 It was strictly designed at its inception for high school and junior high school programs to have a place for performance opportunity and feedback from major qualified adjudicators.

4559 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The Westwinds Music Society, is that a jazz society?

4560 MR. WILLMS: No. It is a community music organization. There are currently, as of this year, well over 400 members. They make up six concert bands, four choirs and six jazz bands.

4561 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Handout "A" is all music programs, all genres, in the schools. Is that correct?

4562 MR. WILLMS: Correct. For clarity, within the Alberta curriculum you cannot register a student for a jazz studies program if they are not also registered in a more traditional concert type of program.

4563 In other words, to be in an instrumental jazz program, you must also be in the concert band program. To be in a vocal jazz program, you must also be in the concert choir program.

4564 The skill base is built in a more classical traditional style. The jazz studies is an extension.

4565 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It is the other half, as we heard today, of being a full musician.

4566 MR. WILLMS: Correct.

4567 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The Westwinds Music Society is self-explanatory.

4568 All of these groups, of whom you are a member and very heavily involved, believe that a jazz format is the one that is needed in the city?

4569 MR. WILLMS: Correct.

4570 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Were you aware that there was an application, that we are presently looking at an application for urban music?

4571 MR. WILLMS: Yes, I am, especially now after being here this afternoon. I was less aware before I arrived.

4572 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I see. Would you say likewise that there is a void of that?

4573 MR. WILLMS: I think I was struggling similarly to -- I sense some struggle on your part to understand what musical distinctions were being made in the genre.

4574 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Radiohead?

4575 MR. WILLMS: I was with you on that one. That one blew right past me. To be truthful with you, my perception is that -- and this may be; well, it is what it is.

4576 My perception is that those are further extensions and variations on the typical pop rock kind of station that we already have, but with maybe more specific attention being paid to a specific area of that whole spectrum.

4577 To me it's not that different from what you can hear currently on the radio, at least based on my understanding of that new music.

4578 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Acknowledging both of our ignorances.

4579 MR. WILMS: Right.

4580 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I guess the other thing is, it would appear to me there would only be -- well, I don't know how many you would say -- I would have said only one classical station in English here -- yes, it depends on if you are bilingual, if you can understand classical music in French, but -- that's a joke --

--- Laughter / Rires

4581 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But would you likewise say there is a hole in that genre in this market?

4582 MR. WILMS: I think it could certainly be expanded, however on a day-to-day basis during the prime of the day, whether that is evening or afternoon or early morning, or when it is more likely you are going to be listening to the radio, you are more likely to be able to find the classical music on the radio, you are not likely to find jazz on the radio.

4583 We do have two stations that do cater to that in some way in that we have CKUA in Alberta.

4584 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right.

4585 MR. WILMS: CKUA also addresses jazz. They are the ones that we are referring to when we are saying a couple of hours on a Saturday afternoon or late in the evening. But they are the only serious attempt that I have encountered at addressing jazz. They do address classical, and the classical program I think is more extensive than their jazz.

4586 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you very much. Thank you for coming here to give us your views.

4587 MR. WILMS: Thank you.

4588 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Wilms, we have another question, I think, for you.

4589 MR. WILMS: I'm sorry.

4590 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: No problem.

4591 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner McKendry, please proceed.

4592 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: I suppose, just to provide some comfort to perhaps some of the intervenors and applicants, some of us on the panel do know who Radiohead is and do listen to their music.

4593 I wanted to ask you a question that goes back to a point I think you made and I want to make sure I understand it. It really goes, I suppose, to the role of the Music Parents Associations, which I take it are a fairly common organization in the school system here in Calgary.

4594 One of your colleagues from another high school talked about the one at his school where his budget in the school was $3,000 but he needed $100,000 to run the music program and the Music Parents Association made up the rest through selling chocolate bars or through directly donating the money themselves.

4595 I guess one thing somebody could take away from that, and I would like your comments on the experience, is that, well, the need is being met. It may be a lot of work and take a lot of organization, but it is being met.

4596 So my question to you is: Is that a fair observation or conclusion?

4597 Well, let me leave it at that.

4598 MR. WILMS: The need is being met, yes, in a certain sense.

4599 I think the common thread wherever you go -- and this isn't just Calgary, this is western Canada, I think this is probably all of Canada and certainly into the U.S. -- most of these highly successful music programs are driven by highly successful music educators who set very high goals. They go beyond the basic nature of the curriculum and therefore require funding beyond the basics.

4600 I don't think we are that different from anywhere. I have a student who just transferred in from Texas this year and we often have this impression of these huge Texas band programs with all this money, a lot of them do similar things. So yes, the need is being met.

4601 Should these kinds of activities and can they be enhanced, absolutely.

4602 And is it equal across the system, absolutely not.

4603 In other words, some schools have the ability to do this more than others. Some of that is dependent upon location in the city, some of that is dependent upon the history and tradition of the program.

4604 It is a lot more difficult to start from scratch now then if you have a program that started from scratch 25 years ago at this.

4605 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Thank you. That is very helpful.

4606 Thank you for the CDs.

4607 As some people here may know, this hearing is being broadcast on the Internet and I am told by the Secretary that Mr. Styles' CD was broadcast over our lunch break, so we are not only happy to receive them so we can listen to them, it turns out we can make sure they are heard worldwide by the millions of people that I am sure are listening to this hearing on the Internet.

--- Laughter / Rires

4608 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Thank you very much.

4609 MR. WILMS: Thank you.

4610 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Wilms.

4611 There are no further questions.

4612 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We won't need any more market studies.

4613 MR. WILMS: Thank you.

4614 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

4615 Well, we have reached near the end of our day.

4616 Legal counsel, are there any administrative matters that we need to take care of, or Mr. Secretary?

4617 MR. BURNSIDE: I think, in all fairness, I should call the one intervenor I missed. I'm not sure they are here.

4618 Is the Caribbean Community Council of Calgary represented by Lorna Ann Murray in the room?

4619 We will call them tomorrow then.

4620 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Any of the intervenors who didn't appear today of course will be called again tomorrow morning when we begin at nine o'clock.

4621 So the hearing is closed for the day.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1720, to resume

on Thursday, November 2, 2000 at 0900 / L'audience

est ajournée à 1720, pour reprendre le jeudi

2 novembre 2000 à 0900