ARCHIVÉ -  Transcription - Calgary, AB - 2000/10/31

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Telus Convention Centre Telus Convention Centre
120 Ninth Avenue Southeast 120 - 9e avenue Sud-Est
Calgary, Alberta Calgary (Alberta)
October 31, 2000 le 31 octobre 2000


Volume 2


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of


However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Canadian Radio-television and

Telecommunications Commission

Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

télécommunications canadiennes

Transcript / Transcription

Public Hearing / Audience publique


Application for new broadcasting licences for FM in Calgary/

Demande d'une licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation

d'une entreprise de programmation de radio FM à Calgary


Ronald Williams Chairperson/Président
Barbara Cram Commissioner/Conseillère
Andrée Noël Commissioner/Conseillère
Stuart Langford Commissioner/Conseiller
David McKendry Commissioner/Conseiller
Michael Burnside Hearing Manager and Secretary / Gérant de l'audience et Secrétaire
Geoff Batstone Legal Counsel /
Conseiller juridique
Telus Convention Centre Telus Convention Centre
120 Ninth Avenue Southeast 120 - 9e avenue Sud-Est
Calgary, Alberta Calgary (Alberta)
October 31, 2000 le 31 octobre 2000


Volume 2


Standard Radio Inc. 254
CHUM Limited 356
Aboriginal Voices Radio 457


Calgary, Alberta / Calgary (Alberta)

--- Upon resuming on Tuesday, October 31, 2000

at 0900 / L'audience reprend le mardi 31 octobre

2000 à 0900

1348 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to day two of the Calgary public hearing. Today our work plan is to deal with three applications, beginning with Standard Radio, continuing on with the CHUM application and completing our day with the Gary Farmer application.

1349 I see the Standard panel is in place. Mr. Secretary.

1350 MR. BURNSIDE: That sound is apropos because I was going to remind everyone if they start getting feedback from your microphones move a little bit away from the microphone.

1351 I would like to call the next application which is by Standard Radio Inc. for a broadcasting licence to carry on an English-language FM radio programming undertaking at Calgary on the frequency 98.5 with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts.

1352 The applicant is proposing an "urban rhythm" music format. You may proceed whenever you are ready, Mr. Slaight.


1353 MR. SLAIGHT: Thank you.

1354 Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission.

1355 I am Gary Slaight, President and CEO of Standard Broadcasting. Returning to Alberta always has a special meaning to me because I was born in Edmonton and this province is where my father started his radio career.

1356 To that end, when Alan used to appear in front of the CRTC he had a ritual of reading his horoscope and in his honour, and despite legal advice, I have decided to do the same for myself today because it ain't great and I am an aquarian by the way.

"Because you take more risks than most you inevitably make more mistakes than most but that should be a source of price, not regret."

1357 Well, Alan wouldn't agree with that.

"The risks you take today may or may not come off but what matters is not that you succeed or fail but that you have the courage to try."

1358 So we are going to try today.

1359 That said, before I begin officially, I would like to introduce our team.

1360 To my right is Lisa Akizuki, who will be the Program Director of our new station, if we are licensed by the Commission. Lisa was formerly the Program Director who launched Hot 103 in Winnipeg, Rhythmic CHR station with an Urban flavour.

1361 To her right is Farley Flex, Music Director of Milestone Radio, the new urban music station in Toronto, in which Standard has a minority interest. Farley is also a record producer and manage and has been an active participant in the Canadian music industry for over 12 years. Farley will be our Canadian Talent Co-ordinator in Toronto.

1362 To my left is Tom Peacock. Tom is the General Manager of our two existing Calgary stations, CJFM and CKMX. Tom was born and raised in Calgary and has more than 20 years of experience in the market.

1363 In the row behind me, just behind Tom, is Herm Harrison, who works in sales for us in Calgary, and who will be the Sales Manager of the new station if we are licensed. Herm was a five time CFL All-Star and was recently honoured with the Memorial Lifetime Achievement Award by the Black Achievement Awards Society of Alberta.

1364 Next to Herm is Peter Grant, our regulatory counsel from McCarthy Tétrault.

1365 Next to Peter is Jeff Vidler, Partner of Solutions Research Group consultants. Jeff was formerly with the Angus Reid Group who conducted our audience research.

1366 Next to Jeff is Bob Harris, Operations Manager for our two stations in Calgary.

1367 In the third row, on your right, is Ian Lurie, Chief Financial Officer of Standard Radio.

1368 Beside Ian is Lorna Murray, a member of our Advisory Board, who is the head of the Caribbean Community Council of Calgary which runs Carifest.

1369 In the audience are members of our proposed Advisory Board who I will ask to stand: Denham Jolly, President and CEO of Milestone Radio in Toronto;

1370 Jodie Taylor, an Urban Music Consultant, working here in Calgary. One of her clients is Universal Records Canada, which accounts for about 60 per cent of the Urban music sold in this country.

1371 And finally, Greg Curtis, Programs Director of the University of Calgary Students Union.

1372 So that is our team.

1373 We are here today to apply for a new FM station to be called "The Rhythm 98.5". It will provide listeners in Calgary with a much needed new Urban radio service that will feature a diverse music format based on Hip Hop, Rhythm and Blues, World Beat, Dance, Soul and Reggae.

1374 Standard Radio is a privately owned radio company with 12 stations in major urban markets across Canada, including two stations here in Calgary. Standard Radio has a distinguished history of public and community service and brings a high level of experience, commitment and local knowledge to this application.

1375 The Urban music genre is relatively new to Canada, but we are confident that it will succeed in Calgary. To start off our presentation, let me turn to Tom Peacock.

1376 MR. PEACOCK: Thank you, Gary.

1377 The first thing that we needed to address in putting this application together was what the format should be. We rapidly reached the conclusion that there was a huge opening for a new station serving the Calgary market featuring Urban music.

1378 The reason for this becomes evident if you look at where the existing radio stations in Calgary are positioned.

1379 The nine commercial radio stations in Calgary -- three owned by Corus, four owned by Rogers, and two owned by Standard Radio -- cover almost all of the formats in whole or in part. They cover news/talk, country, adult contemporary, rock -- both classic and new, CHR and adult standards.

1380 One format is obviously missing.

1381 It is called Urban. And that is the format that we propose to bring to Calgary with a new FM station to be called "The Rhythm 98.5".

1382 The Urban format is the fastest growing category in the record industry today. And that growth is not just in markets like Toronto, where Milestone will operate.

1383 The local clubs in Calgary are already playing this music, and Calgarians are seeing some of these artists on MuchMusic and BET.

1384 But even more telling, they're buying the CDs in local record stores. The greatest sales growth of Urban music, according to Universal Music Canada, and most of the other record labels, is right here in western Canada.

1385 A letter of intervention from the local manager of HMV tells us that right here in Calgary, Urban music currently ranges between 25 and 35 per cent of record sales. There is a similar letter from the local manager of Sam the Record Man.

1386 This is an incredible level of sales for a type of music that is not currently being played on local radio stations.

1387 MR. SLAIGHT: Thank you, Tom.

1388 Let me turn now to Jeff Vidler to address our research.

1389 MR. VIDLER: Thank you, Gary.

1390 Mr. Chairman, the Angus Reid Group carried out an extensive survey here in Calgary last spring. I was project manager for that study.

1391 The purpose of the study was to identify the nature and level of demand for a new station in Calgary that would play R&B, Hip Hop and Dance music.

1392 The market demand was impressive. The study showed that a new Urban format has the potential to generation a 16 per cent share of tuning among 14 to 40 year olds in Calgary.

1393 The research further demonstrated that this demand is not now being served. Fully 80 per cent of respondents who indicated that an Urban station would become their favourite did not identify any Calgary radio station as currently specializing in playing this type of music.

1394 MR. SLAIGHT: We now know that there is a broad audience for this format. But will the advertisers support the new station?

1395 Our sales experience in the marketplace, along with input from clients and ad agencies indicate a definite yes.

1396 And on this point let me to turn to Herm Harrison.

1397 MR. HARRISON: Thank you, Gary.

1398 I have lived in Calgary since 1964, when I moved here to become a member of the Calgary Stampeder football organization. I had a wonderful career in football and decided to stay here. I became a proud Canadian in 1976.

1399 While playing football I also embarked on a career in radio sales, which has lasted for 32 years. Of those years, the last five have been with Standard Radio.

1400 The introduction of an Urban music station in Calgary will bring a much needed new format to the city. The record sales and club success for Urban music in Calgary shows us that this is a form of music with broad multicultural appeal.

1401 To quote Lisa Zbitnew, President of BMG Music Canada:

"Calgary has been an important cultural centre for Urban music and represents a disproportionately high percentage of Urban music sales, despite a lack of media presence in the past."

1402 Over my career I have sold air time successfully in Calgary on stations with a variety of formats. Given the unique format and audience estimates for the new station, the sales projections for the station are realistic and achievable. I have talked with a number of local advertisers and businesses and they are as excited as we are.

1403 I should also note that the nature of the format will allow us to tap unique revenue sources -- like the dance clubs and the record labels in this genre --  that other stations cannot attract.

1404 MR. SLAIGHT: Thank you, Herm.

1405 There is another point to be made about radio sales in Calgary. Standard Radio currently suffers from a major competitive disadvantage. We have two stations. The other seven commercial radio stations -- three owned by Corus and four owned by Rogers -- package and sell their national air time through the same sales operation. In other words, our two competitors have effectively combined forces to sell against us -- their seven stations against our two.

1406 The competitive disparity is shown on the chart on the easel on this side of the room. The seven stations owned by Corus and Rogers get an overwhelming 83 per cent share of tuning to private stations in Calgary, which you can see along the bottom of the chart.

1407 In these circumstances, a third radio station would help to redress our competitive disadvantage.

1408 At the end of the day the key to our success will be the unique programming on this radio station.

1409 Let me turn to our proposed Program Director, Lisa Akizuki, to discuss some of our programming plans.

1410 MS AKIZUKI: Thank you, Gary.

1411 Our new radio service in Calgary will provide a unique Canadian variation of the Urban format by focusing on Canadian Urban artists as well as reflect the demographic and cultural characteristics of its listeners.

1412 "The Rhythm" will be cosmopolitan, inclusive and, above all, unique. It will provide a home, long overdue, on the Calgary radio dial for the music that is being played in local clubs, showcased in concerts and sold at local record stores but is not being heard on the Calgary radio dial.

1413 We will start with a Canadian content music level of at least 40 per cent. At that level, "The Rhythm" will provide unprecedented exposure over the airwaves of a large number and a wide range of previously unplayed Canadian Urban artists, both new and established.

1414 Those Canadian artists include Deborah Cox, Kardinal, Saukrates, Choclair, Tamia, Carols Morgan, Temperance, the Rascalz and Maestro. None of them are receiving significant airplay on radio stations in the Calgary market -- and, in fact, most of them receive no airplay at all.

1415 At the international level, our format will embrace such artists as Janet Jackson, TLC, Puff Daddy, Lauryn Hill, DMX and Will Smith.

1416 Our service will be completely different from anything else heard on Calgary radio today, providing heightened diversity in the local broadcast landscape.

1417 As program director for "The Rhythm", my mission will be to provide high-quality programming that will reflect the local Calgary community. Recordings of local artists and musicians will be regularly presented on the station. "The Rhythm" will also broadcast live local Urban concerts and events so that its listeners will be able to hear the vibrant sounds of this musical genre from just about anywhere.

1418 "The Rhythm" will also provide a voice to the black, as well as other ethnic communities in the southern Alberta area. Our service will reflect the needs and interests of these groups and provide employment opportunities to individuals within the ethnic community.

1419 We will go out of our way to promote and publicize local ethnic cultural events, such as Carifest, Calgary's Caribbean festival. In fact, we have earmarked $175,000 in financial support for Carifest over the next seven years.

1420 MR. SLAIGHT: Thank you, Lisa.

1421 I would like to turn now to Farley Flex, the music director of Milestone Radio in Toronto.

1422 MR. FLEX: Thank you, Gary.

1423 Less than five months ago, on June 16th of this year, the Commission licensed Milestone Radio to operate Canada's first major market radio station dedicated to Urban music.

1424 As the music director of that station, I am pleased to tell you that we are on schedule to launch our station in Toronto this coming spring.

1425 We at Milestone are delighted with the potential synergies with this new Urban station in Calgary. If we can build a national radio audience for Urban Canadian artists, we will have a richer and more diversified broadcasting system.

1426 There is a letter of intervention from Solroc Music, the management of Juno Award winner Carlos Morgan, that is worth quoting:

"While touring nationally with Carlos promote Morgan's debut CD `Feelin Alright' we repeatedly would hear the same story retold of no radio station locally where they could get the urban music they were hungry for. Believe us, the listening demand is there. The artists and product are here to support it, the communities crave it, [and] the revenues most certainly will come. [If] the to be a complete representation of our diversity and talents,...access to numerous radio stations nationally [is imperative]. A station in Calgary is the next step."


1427 In that connection, I would like to introduce a videotape that will allow you to hear from some of Canada's Urban artists in their own words.

--- Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

1428 MR. SLAIGHT: Mr. Chairman, those are the artists that will define the Urban sound in Canada. They clearly need a forum for their music. But they will need more than just airplay.

1429 Let me turn now to our proposed Canadian talent development package, which is valued at over $5.9 million over the seven-year licence term.

1430 These exciting initiatives are listed on the easel beside us.

1431 The key area of support, with expenditures of almost $3.8 million, will be our Canadian Urban Star Program.

1432 We start with a contribution of $700,000 to FACTOR, which will be directed solely to Canadian Urban artists.

1433 Next, there is $350,000 for the annual creation of a compilation CD of music performed by Canadian Urban artists. This will be released by Song Corp, Canada's newest record label.

1434 We have $700,000 for the creation of a CD, music video and national concert tour initiative for one outstanding artist, each year of the licence term.

1435 There is $525,000 for our national two-way tour initiative.

1436 There is also $630,000 for a live concert series that will provide a unique showcase for local and non-local Canadian Urban artists.

1437 We include $175,000 to the Prairie Music Week, and the same amount of Canadian Music Week. This money is earmarked to showcase Canadian Urban artists at these events.

1438 As you will see on the second card, we have also proposed several other cash benefits, as well as major non-cash benefits, over the licence term; in particular, to our Urban Spot Plan and Community Access Program.

1439 The Urban Spot Plan will promote and support new Canadian musical talent by scheduling free commercials daily to promote the CDs of Urban artists.

1440 The Community Access Program will allow community or charity groups to use "The Rhythm's" studio facilities to produce their own public service announcements -- many of which we will run on air.

1441 That is $5.95 million. An unprecedented amount.

1442 Now, I want to turn briefly to our special relationship with Milestone Radio.

1443 You have already heard from Farley Flex, Milestone's Music Director. In the audience, you have also met Denham Jolly, Milestone's president.

1444 Denham has kindly agreed to sit on the advisory board for our new station, and many of the initiatives we have in mind will benefit both stations and the audiences they serve and, most importantly, the Canadian Urban artists.

1445 A good example will be our live concert series. This involves 26 lives concerts per year in Calgary featuring local urban artists from the Calgary area and other regions across the country.

1446 In order to create new Canadian urban stars, we see the two stations working together to promote local artists in each other's market. We also see the stations working together with our FM stations: in Vancouver, Z95; and, in Montreal, the Mix 96. Our vision is to work towards the creation of an urban music industry in Canada.

1447 Denham's participation on our advisory board will ensure that the station in Calgary remains aware of the trends and events taking place in the Toronto urban music scene, and vice versa. The potential synergies will be incredible.

1448 Before concluding our presentation, I want to thank the many people and organizations who intervened to support our application.

1449 This included virtually all of the Canadian independent record labels, including Nettwerk, Alert Records and the SONG Corp. We were also supported by the multinational record companies operating in Canada, including BMG, EMI, Virgin, Warner Brothers and Universal Music.

1450 The Alberta Recording Industry Association, representing the grassroots record producers and artists in Alberta also expressed its support.

1451 Finally, we want to thank Al Duerr, the Mayor of Calgary, for his letter of support.

1452 To quote:

"This application has significant benefits for the city of Calgary in that it will offer an exciting, new radio service to [the] listeners in Calgary. Indeed, the unique Canadian variation of the Urban format will be a reflection of the diversity and vitality of our community. As well, the application makes a substantial commitment to the development and promotion of Canadian Urban musical talent, including direct support of Urban music showcased in this community.

"This application can only serve to strengthen broadcasting in our community.

"Sincerely, Al Duerr, Mayor."

1453 In conclusion, The Rhythm 98.5 will be a significant new radio voice in Calgary with a distinctive and popular format that is currently unserved. In addition to fulfilling an unserved need, the station will help in building a level playing field in the market.

1454 Our financial commitments are significant and unmatched, with over $5.9 million of support for Canadian talent development.

1455 Perhaps Salome Bey has said it best. To quote from her letter:

"With the growing interest in Urban music across Canada, our Canadian artists have the potential to become not only national treasures, but international treasures, with this major investment and interest in Canadian Urban music."

1456 That concludes our presentation, Mr. Chairman. We would be pleased to respond to your questions.

1457 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Slaight and panellists.

1458 You do of course realize that today is Halloween and there is some risk that your horoscope may in fact become a "horror scope" due to the competitive nature of this hearing.

1459 MR. SLAIGHT: I also received advice from legal counsel that we shouldn't come up here with masks on this morning.

1460 THE CHAIRPERSON: Very good.

1461 Mr. Jolly I remember, in a Toronto hearing, welcomed the Commissioners to the big smoke, so I would like to take this opportunity to welcome him to Cowtown.

1462 Mr. Slaight, the questioning this morning will be led by Commissioner Langford.

1463 Mr. Langford.

1464 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And away we go.

1465 So what does it say about the Leos for today, before we get going? We might as well have a --

--- Laughter / Rires

1466 MR. SLAIGHT: It says you are in a great mood.


--- Laughter / Rires

1468 MR. SLAIGHT: And you will be gentle.

--- Laughter / Rires

1469 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What about the bit about being charming and good looking?

1470 MR. SLAIGHT: And very funny as well, yes.

--- Laughter / Rires

1471 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: They ditched that?

--- Laughter / Rires

1472 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. One demerit point. He missed charming and good looking.

--- Laughter / Rires

1473 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Good presentation, interesting, and I think just to keep it all compact why don't we just follow it along for awhile and start with some of the points you made and see where we go from there.

1474 I am particularly interested in the points you made on -- I am going to refer to your pages here that you have handed out this morning -- page 4 where you talk about the record sales in the format that you are proposing.

1475 Now, we don't regulate format. We are more interested in it in the sense of choice and bringing diversity and how it will impact on your business plan, and that sort of thing, because, let's face it, you can go out here tomorrow, if you are granted a licence, and change the format. It's up to you.

1476 But still it is an interesting point you make about the record sales. I guess they are not records any more. I'm dating myself.

1477 How accurate a connection is it? How close is the connection between sales at HMV and Same the Record Man and what people are going to tune to at their radio?

1478 MR. SLAIGHT: First of all, if we changed format, Farley would hurt me. Okay? So that's not possible.

--- Laughter / Rires

1479 MR. SLAIGHT: The numbers are very accurate and we get them from all of the record labels. The percentage in Calgary is between 25 and 35 per cent. It is far above the national average in terms of record sales. Really between that and the club activity in this marketplace, those were the two main reasons that we decided to focus on this format.

1480 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So tell me a bit about the club activity. Where do we -- I'm sorry, somebody is shining something in my face. I'm ready to confess to anything.

--- Laughter / Rires

1481 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you, Mike.

1482 MR. SLAIGHT: There are spirits in this room.

1483 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: There are, yes.

--- Laughter / Rires

1484 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Not in this class, though, I want to assure everyone.

1485 The clubs. Tell me a little bit about the clubs. You mentioned it in your application in a number of places, but we are in town to work so you will have to give me a little more.

1486 Are we talking about a lot of clubs, two or three clubs? I just don't have a sense for what the club scene means.

1487 MR. SLAIGHT: Again, I don't live in Calgary. I think maybe Bob Harrison, who operates our two radio stations here and knows the marketplace, can speak to it.

1488 Also, I believe Farley was out at the clubs last night and he can maybe speak to that after Bob talks.

1489 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: He can still speak -- can you -- after?

1490 MR. HARRISON" The majority of major clubs have a specific urban night that they dedicate one night per week. They do very well despite no major outlet for this type of music. Clubs such as: Bourbon Street, The Capital, Cherry Lounge, The Taz, Prostecs(ph), all have one night that they dedicate specifically to urban music.

1491 There is one club in the city, The Embassy, which dedicates 100 per cent of their music to urban.

1492 If you look at the landscape of the clubs, even the country clubs, the rock clubs -- country clubs such as Cowboys, Desperadoes, Outlaws, and the rock clubs, the Back Alley -- 50 per cent of their music on any given night comes from that genre.

1493 If you were to add in dance music and house music, it can get as high as 90 per cent. It is a very vibrant and surprisingly active club scene despite no major media outlet for urban music. I think Mr. Flex can attest to that coming in from one very early this morning.

1494 MR. FLEX: Yes. The observation is really I think important in the sense that last night being Monday night, a night that we wouldn't traditionally associate with going out to party, so to speak, I went to a friend of mine -- PJ, he was here today, I attended his club. The capacity is roughly about 300. There were anywhere from 250 to 280 people there last night. I arrived there at about midnight. It was full when I arrived. People stayed there basically until after last call. The beat of it -- people still want to dance after they can't get drinks, kind of thing.

1495 So, you know, it's reflective. It's very similar to Toronto as well when urban music was first becoming popular in Toronto and independent promoters recognized the appeal. They would go out and solicit the club owners and often get off nights, so to speak, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, or what have you, Sunday in a lot of cases, and basically promote to the club owner that: we can bring you business on a night that you wouldn't normally be open, all right, because they were aware of the demand for the music. So I think last night was certainly reflective of that.

1496 MS AKIZUKI: Actually, I would just like to extend on both Bob and Farley's comments.

1497 I have been here for the last six days. Also, although not last night but I also have had an opportunity to really check out the club scene in Calgary and it really is, as Farley alluded to, all about the music. I mean the people were up dancing. People of all shapes and sizes. They are just soaking up the music, because in a lot of cases.

1498 Again, they are not getting this music from traditional radio, and I was particularly struck when I saw two different clubs, 20 minutes apart from each other, this one particular song by a Canadian group called "The Baby Blue Sound Crew" came on and everybody was just "oooh", and they ran down to the dance floor, and this is a song that is not getting radio air play in Calgary right now.

1499 MR. FLEX: I would just like to add that that album has just gone gold as well.

1500 MR. SLAIGHT: I think this speaks back to the record sales. The record sales are coming from all of the activity in the clubs. That is how this is being stimulated currently.

1501 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You have two radio stations, as you have noted in your application and on one of your exhibit boards here this morning. Are you playing any of this music on your existing stations?

1502 MR. SLAIGHT: No. No. Our one station is a rock station and our other station is a nostalgia station playing Frank Sinatra, et cetera.

1503 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. So we leave out Blue Eyes. But rock, surely you could get some of it on there. There is just no interest, is there?

1504 MR. SLAIGHT: No. No. Absolutely totally separate audiences. A person who likes a rock station is not necessarily a fan of urban music and vice versa.

1505 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So you have to give up audience to get audience is what you are saying?

1506 MR. SLAIGHT: I don't think this radio station would impact our existing radio station too much other than in terms of revenue slightly.

1507 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Why don't I jump to that question because on page -- I will get myself totally out of order here, but there are no rules to this game that I know of yet.

1508 One of you mentioned that the revenues you expect to get would come from other stations. If you are playing a brand new sound and appealing to a brand new audience, why would that necessarily be so? Why wouldn't you bring in brand new advertisers?

1509 MR. SLAIGHT: I don't believe that. I think we are suggesting in our application, in our response to the deficiency letter, that about 40 per cent of our revenue will come from existing stations. We see -- and maybe Tom you could speak to it as operating in the marketplace.

1510 MR. PEACOCK: We do expect that about 40 per cent of our revenue would come from the other stations. We feel that there is only so much radio revenue in this market and it is bound to come from some of the other stations.

1511 Percentage wise, we expect that about 15 per cent of that 40 per cent would come from power 107 with the other 25 per cent coming from all of the other stations including ourselves.

1512 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And the notion that you are bringing -- I am just looking for information here. There is nothing tricky about this question that I know of -- but the notion that you are bringing a new format, a completely untried format at this point, that doesn't equate to new advertisers in any way.

1513 MR. SLAIGHT: Yes, it will. Part of our -- again, in our response, we are projecting that 35 per cent would come from new advertising.


1515 MR. SLAIGHT: In particular -- and again Tom can expand on this -- we see a huge amount of revenue coming from the clubs in this marketplace who currently aren't advertising the urban nights on radio.

1516 Tom, do you want to --

1517 MR. PEACOCK: Just to give an example of how much revenue is available in new revenue, we have spoken to several of the club operators. Currently there are no radio stations doing live to air nights in any of their clubs and they have told us that we could expect to get approximately $2,000 a night for live to air club night, and right now six nights a week are urban music club nights, and if you do the math on that there is $670,000 in revenues for doing live to air club nights.

1518 MR. SLAIGHT: We also see the good labels coming to the table with this radio station with new revenue.


1520 MR. SLAIGHT: We would hope HMV would be there as well, yes.

1521 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Certainly waiting for them and Sam.

1522 On pages 4 and 5 of this morning's presentation, Mr. Vidler spoke of the study that was done, the market study, and looked at the hours that could be tuned and projected a 16 per cent share of hours tuned. Is that really high enough? I mean, are you -- because your own studies whereas they do show that 16 per cent would make it their favourite, 44 per cent say they won't listen to it at all.

1523 So is this a high risk in Calgary?

1524 MR. SLAIGHT: I will let Jeff speak to it, but we don't believe so and we operate in this marketplace and we have stations here. We have a pretty good idea of what the marketplace will bear.

1525 Our revenue projections are conservative and I think we have committed to $2 million in revenue and we have committed to a 7 share in audience and I think that's a conservative estimate in terms of the revenue.

1526 Maybe, Jeff, you could talk to the research.

1527 MR. VIDLER: The 16 share, projected 16 share among 14 to 40 year olds does project or extrapolate to about 10 share, if you are looking at 12+, and that's the potential audience and Standard has then applied the initial estimate of 7 per cent share and we are just waiting until we come to the seven-year period to fulfil that potential over the term.

1528 If you look at the marketplace right now, that's enough to put the station in a pretty competitive position, particularly in demographics.

1529 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: On page 5, you talk about fully 80 per cent of the respondents indicated that an urban radio station would become their favourite. Is that 80 per cent of the 16 per cent? Is that how that works?

1530 MR. VIDLER: No actually, what that refers to is the percentage of the core audience. The 16 per cent that say this would be their type of a station, 80 per cent of those people say there is currently no station playing that type of format. That really speaks to the diversity that would be created by the format.

1531 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: When you did the market research, according to the information you filed, you played music, one-minute music tape, to people who you were going to then interview.

1532 How did you create that tape in the sense of did you try to duplicate a 60-40 Canadian/foreign balance? What rules did you set for yourself in sort of showing people the product, or letting them hear the product?

1533 MR. SLAIGHT: Jeff can explain that, but also Farley was involved in putting the tapes together in terms of selecting the artists.

1534 MR. VIDLER: The idea primarily was to come up with as true representation of what listeners could expect from the radio station, both in terms of Canadian foreign content, also in terms of recognizing that not all of these songs were that familiar being played in the market.

1535 We hand-picked the selections looking at those selections that -- I think we are looking at an overlap of about 30 per cent with existing stations in the market, about 70 per cent that really was not being played on radio now, but was getting exposure through MuchMusic or whatever, so it has perhaps some level of familiarity with the audience that they could respond to it.

1536 MR. FLEX: Just to add, from the standpoint of what was on the tape. The one that thing, as Jeff said, was to reflect what the potential station would potentially play, so we made sure there was a mix of artists like Maestro and Choclair, and so forth, who are domestic artists, who have some prominence because they have in essence crossed over to the limited amount of urban radio that there now is nationally.

1537 Then there are obviously more prominent U.S. artists that the audience is exposed to through MuchMusic, et cetera, that they would recognize as something they may have seen, but not heard on the radio. So that's the sort of process that was followed.

1538 MR. SLAIGHT: It was a little different researching this format that it would be researching a mainstream format where you could say Santana, Eric Clapton and most people are going to know pretty well what you are talking about. It was important with our music research to play to the music so they would get a sense of what the sound was about.

1539 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I noticed that one of the people mentioned in the footnote or one of the artists mentioned is the now somewhat well-known Eminem and does that raise any problems for your people in light of what has been going on recently?

1540 MR. SLAIGHT: Absolutely, and we saw the article in the paper on Monday as well. I think it was near the horoscopes, but --

--- Laughter / Rires

1541 MR. SLAIGHT: I have two daughters, 12 and 10, and one of my daughters came home the other day and said, "Can I get the Eminem record?" and I said, "Absolutely not", and we will have that same philosophy on this radio station. We know the kids will be listening. We will have an internal listening board who will screen the music in terms of lyrics and content much like MuchMusic did when videos started coming out.

1542 We see this as being a real challenge for us and we are prepared to address it.

1543 MR. FLEX: If I could add. One of the interesting things with this format is artists like Eminem who in Toronto, for instance, get major radio play on the top 40 stations, it's important to recognize, as Gary mentioned, that the sound is what is really appealing as well. So we don't necessarily have to play a controversial piece from his album.

1544 Eminem to his credit has several tracks on his album that we would all readily listen to comfortably and not have any problems with. So there is that latitude as well.

1545 MS AKIZUKI: I would also like to add that with some particular artists in this genre and we are talking about Eminem right now. I think the record labels are very sensitive as well as ourselves in the radio industry, to what we expose to younger people, and people of any age who enjoy this type of music, so much so that as a matter of course now most of the record labels, certainly all of the majors, and most of the independents as well, now offer radio stations a choice.

1546 When we get the latest CD single there is actually not one song, but perhaps three or four versions of the same song on that CD with some of the versions being edited so that any offensive words or material is not there. Essentially the song is the same though, and as Farley pointed out, it's really not an issue for listeners because it is more about the beat than the words themselves.

1547 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, let me pursue that a little. I know it's only one name on a footnote and I don't want to make -- what did my dear old father used to say? One swallow doesn't make a spring and so I don't want to make a huge weather change in my direction here on this.

1548 But it seems to me it raises some broader issues. For example, if you play the non-offending cuts, shall we say, you are still selling for this artist and so Mr. Slaight's daughters, if they go to buy the recording, will get the offending cut as well. Do you feel -- I mean I can't ask you to be the policeman for the world, so you don't have to reach too far, but do you feel you have a greater duty than to just not strip out the bad words, strip out the offending cut? Is there a bigger community duty here that you are radio station deals with?

1549 I am sure this can't be the first time you have had this.

1550 MR. SLAIGHT: Again, as a father I totally empathize with what you are saying here, but the problem is if you say no to somebody it makes it more appealing in some cases. So if kids in Calgary find out that the radio station is not playing a certain artist because of whatever reason, they are going to be more likely to perhaps go out and buy it.

1551 There is a fine line there between ethical responsibility and censorship in terms of they are going to buy it anyway in all likelihood if they find out about it.

1552 So I think back to when rock music was starting in the seventies and the eighties and some of the lyrics in rock music back then were questionable and we had to go through the same process.

1553 Would we feel comfortable supporting M&M and feeling that young people are going to be buying the CD because we are playing it? No. We are totally aware of that issue and we are totally prepared to deal with it, but at the same time we have to balance the line between demand and censorship and giving people what they want.

1554 MS AKIZUKI: If I can just add on to Gary's comments in particular as the potential Program Director for this radio station. We could continue to talk about striking a balance and democracy and free speech and whatnot. I think what is important to note with our radio station is that we have a number of avenues which we can get into further later on, but we have quite a few avenues that allow for back and forth discussion between our radio hosts and the audience and people who perhaps aren't listeners, but want to call in.

1555 We do recognize that there is a need to not just put a band-aid on it. We want to expose all sides and really have a discussion. Again, as I say, we do have a lot of avenues planned for discussions.

1556 MR. SLAIGHT: I would like to ask Farley a question here because I wasn't quite sure it was correct. Again referring to M&M, and we don't want to keep referring to one artist, but M&M is receiving airplay on MuchMusic and I know how stringent they are in terms of their strategy and their philosophy.

1557 MR. FLEX: It's an interesting discussion, the notion that you have of some of these talk programs that you are right, we will get to later, "WhassUp" or whatever. I can't say that.

1558 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Maybe you have to be up close.

1559 MR. SLAIGHT: You're hired. You're there.

1560 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I'm there, yes. "Representin", the "g" is gone. It's over for "g's" and "ing". It's just over, yes. This won't make any sense to the poor people typing the transcript. Believe me, there is a basis upon which I am saying "WhassUp".

1561 Okay, that may be the answer. That may be the forum that allows you to bring these things to bear, rather than as you say just put a band-aid on it.

1562 Moving right along a little bit, just again on this morning's presentation on page 7 at the top, you speak about what you call the unique Canadian variation of the Urban format. Is there anything really unique about the Canadians -- I mean they are Canadians so that's good. We like Canadian content and you obviously seem to have picked that point up in one of your offers to up yours to 40 per cent over 35, but is there anything really unique about what the Canadians are doing in this format?

1563 MR. SLAIGHT: I will let Lisa and Farley speak to that, but what we are saying here is we are referring to the format of the radio station being unique, not necessarily the Canadian Urban music. What we are saying is the Urban format will be unique versus the Urban format in the U.S.A.

1564 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Because it has Canadians.

1565 MR. SLAIGHT: Exactly, because 40 per cent of the music will be Canadian Urban artists.

1566 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I misunderstood that. I thought perhaps that the Canadian singers were bringing something completely different to this genre.

1567 MR. SLAIGHT: I believe it is also probably true to some degree and maybe Farley who is the manager can talk to that.

1568 MR. FLEX: Yes. I would certainly like to speak to that. When we think of -- well, the most prominent Urban artist in Canadian history happens to be an act that I manage, Maestro. He has been recording for 10 years. He was the first black artist to go gold, platinum and just short of double platinum.

1569 When people recognize why he is popular, identify why he is popular, it is because he makes references to his existence as a young Canadian of West Indian heritage for instance.

1570 Implementing that type of pride and reflecting things that people can readily identify with Toronto, for instance, where he is from, all those things give a greater presence for Canadian artists.

1571 When you listen to the current tracks that Lisa mentioned by the Baby Blue Sound Crew, Money Jane, there are references there to things that people can identify with in this country. As we know, we are inundated with American media in all ways, shapes and forms. So when a Canadian artist steps outside of the box and says, "Although I would like to be successful in American one day, I think the way to do this is to be me and be original."

1572 The same way, Barenaked Ladies can be ambassadors for Canadian music and you identify their sound that way, it's the same way that artists like Maestro and Choclair and so forth make references to their existence here in Canada. That is not just unique, but it is a pride thing because, as I said, all they know and all they have been exposed to growing up, mostly  -- especially as far as Urban music, has come from south of the border.

1573 MR. SLAIGHT: Again I am aging myself here talking about rock and roll, but you look at the Guess Who and the content of their music when they broke out across Canada and into the United States and there was definitely a Canadian flavour to their lyrics and to the sound at that point in time.

1574 MR. HARRIS: Another Canadian rock act, the Tragically Hip, is all about being Canadian.

1575 MS AKIZUKI: I think there is also a uniqueness in continuing on Farley's comment about pride, not only displayed in the songs by these artists, but also, for example, when we have them in the studio, either in our studio or in Milestone's studio, for interviews and there is the opportunity for Canadian listeners to call in and talk with them.

1576 They can talk about things like "Oh, I remember when I say you, you came to our local community centre. I remember when you came to my school to do a concert," and again I think that there is a uniqueness there where the listeners will feel a little bit more of a kinship.

1577 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: There is nothing unique, of course, about a non-local sound really grabbing an area, to go back to Mr. Slaight's time again, ancient history and I think this was around the 12th century this happened, there was a Liverpool sound that travelled well across the Atlantic and certainly seemed to find audiences everywhere.

1578 But in this particular Urban format are you not drawing on a really, really small local group of artists, bigger in Toronto obviously, but you do put a big emphasis on programming your own Calgary club artists. How much depth is there there?

1579 MR. SLAIGHT: Again I will let Lisa and Farley speak to it, but we have committed to playing 40 per cent Canadian content and we believe there is enough product to do it.

1580 Do we believe there is a need for more Urban product? Absolutely. And that's the reason that we are focusing on giving the money to the artists to create records for us.

1581 In terms of the amount of product that is available, Farley, maybe you could talk a little bit about that, or, Lisa, do you want to go?

1582 MS AKIZUKI: I will lead off by saying, yes, you are correct. Certainly initially, it will be a little bit of a challenge for us to find the 40 per cent Canadian content with enough depth and breadth of artists. I mean we can't play Choclair and Maestro 24 hours a day.

1583 So initially it will be a little bit of a challenge, but I would also say in the same breath that as Farley mentioned Maestro has five CDs to his credit and so we are not looking at just the one or two big smash hits that he has that may get played somewhat on the local top 40 radio station.

1584 We are talking about going much deeper into CDs to expose listeners to a lot of different songs that these artists play. So, I think that we will have some variety in that sense.

1585 Locally, I would make a couple of comments.

1586 First of all, we have identified a large number of -- a very large number, actually, of very local groups. I will mention some of them right now: Heaven Earth, Playback, M.C. Pitbull Terrier, Poetic Inscriptionz, Subliminal, Bugsy Brown, Kinky Diamond, Rightrous, Desiraé Fox, Nicole (Daze), Froside, Peter LaMarr, Lyrical Skyscrapaz, DMG, Danica, Distinctive Elements, M.C. Kruz & Patriq, Cloak & Dagger, Nupanella, who was actually on our video, Yumozo, Bubba "B", Funktasia. Those are just some of the local artists that we can draw from. A number of them do have their own independent CDs out right now. Actually, of that list that I just mentioned, there are five of them that have their own CDs out right now not being signed to a major label. Of the remaining artists on the list I mentioned, we know of a number of them that are currently trying to put together CDs with their own money or, if the money was available, would be able to "like that" because they do have the songs already.

1587 I would also like to mention a comment made by Greg Curtis, who is here with us today -- he's the programs director of the students' union at the University of Calgary -- who mentioned in his letter of intervention that he knows a number of hobby artists in this genre; so what he's saying is he knows a number of people who have day jobs that are actually frustrated artists by night and if there was the infrastructure there for these people to be able to quit their day jobs they would be able to go at music full tilt.

1588 MR. SLAIGHT: Lisa went through a long list there of Calgary area artists and, as she said, all of them don't have CDs. This is the idea with the compilation CD, where we can take some of these artists, take them into the studio and, presto, we have 10 new songs, Canadian content, local talent, that we can play on our radio station -- and we will be doing that every year.

1589 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, let's go there, as the kids say, and follow the bridge to a couple of areas.

1590 You say a lot of -- a very large number, you said, of artists, and you named a few of them. But could you just give me an idea? It doesn't have to be exact. Are we talking 30, in the end, or 100, all in, local artists that fit into this format?

1591 MR. HARRIS: There's about 40. There's about 40 that we know of. And we know that once, if we are lucky enough to be granted a licence, with our Canadian talent development initiatives that more will come.

1592 One of the gentlemen that you will hear from, Ludlow Rodney, held a talent competition, an Urban talent competition, last year, and they literally came out of the woodwork; so much so that he was scrambling the day of the contest because there were so many artists from the area that wanted to participate.

1593 We also see this as being regional, to some degree. There are a lot of Urban artists in Edmonton who, I think, will take advantage of this radio station, in terms of exposure -- that long a drive.

1594 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. Let's take a look, then, at some of your proposals, just branching out from that, perhaps looking at some of the programs we were talking about earlier, and then we will get to your long list of benefits that you have proposed and how some of that might work, as well.

1595 I don't want to sound like I'm accenting the negative here but, obviously, the questions come in areas where you have questions, where you are not sure. There's a lot of your application that's crystal clear, and I'm not going to spend any time on it, it's only in areas where I have some uncertainties; so I don't want people to go away saying "I should have listened to my horoscope" when this is finished because that's just the approach I have to take to it, at this point.

1596 Looking at this number of 40 artists, and maybe more outside of Edmonton, but a finite number at this point, and keeping in mind, I assume, somebody will say that "If you license us, they will come sooner or later" so I will say it for you, but at this point it is a finite number, are some of the non-music shows that you plan, programs that you plan, feasible with that limited number?

1597 I'm looking at featuring programs like "Representin", for example, which is described as a one-hour magazine-type program hosted by local youth community leaders and focusing, I would think, on youth that's interested in this Urban movement.

1598 Is there enough there to do this 52 weeks a year and not repeat and repeat and repeat the same artists, the same issues, the same community concerns?

1599 MR. SLAIGHT: That's not a music show, Commissioner, that is an information show which will not necessarily be focusing on music. I think it will be more issue-related, I believe.

1600 MS AKIZUKI: Yes, that's correct. "Representin", as you were saying, is a one-hour magazine-type program and we want it to be youth-oriented, we want it to be hosted by youth who represent the community. These will be people who listen to our radio station because they like the music but because, in general, this radio station is going to attract younger people; there are issues that not only are of interest to all of them but they don't necessarily have another device to discuss these issues. This could be drugs, it could be sex, it could be violence, it could be issues that older people want to discuss, but what's really important is that it's for younger people and they can talk about it from their perspective.

1601 MR. SLAIGHT: We also see that tying in nicely with our high school series, which is one of our benefits. There will be a lot of interaction with the young people in this marketplace.

1602 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So, this doesn't necessarily have to tie to Urban music issues at all, it could simply be issues of interest to youth. Fine.

1603 What about "Underground", Monday night, 11 to 12 midnight, a weekly one-hour program dedicated to the spirit of new Canadian music? Is there enough for this?

1604 I'm not saying there isn't; I'm asking if there is.

1605 MR. FLEX: Yes, that's a general concern from a lot of people's perspective, but I think what's important to recognize -- I'm going to speak, basically, from my experience with -- I have been on the board of directors of VideoFact for the last six years. We meet about five times a year and get roughly anywhere between 180 and 200 submissions per meeting. Of that, 30 to 40 of the submissions are from the Urban category.

1606 Now, obviously, in some cases, they are artists who, if they are not approved in a meeting, will come back with a different song the next time but, for the most part -- an important dimension, too, is that you cannot submit twice in one -- or the same song twice. Sorry.

1607 Now, from that standpoint, when we talk about 40 submissions five times a year, that's 200 artists, most of whom nobody has heard of. Right? Then you have the other artists who are more established, you know, the Maestros, the Choclairs -- and this is a national thing, as well, you know. So we are talking about, you know, showcasing Canadian R&B and Rap music stars. It's the whole process behind our Canadian talent development initiatives: we find the talent, we develop that talent through the initiative and we promote them on the radio station and, with the synergies that will exist between Milestone and Z-95 in Vancouver, and Montreal as well, I think we have a great opportunity, and the artists will have an even greater opportunity for exposure.

1608 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: When we move over to your benefits, many of which are tied to a kind of a talent search and talent reward focus, is there enough there? Or will you have the same -- you know, you are going to pick, for example, 10 winners for the compilation CD each year, and you are going to have an overall winner each year, and then you are going to have quite a number of concerts -- I think it's 26, isn't it?, per year -- you are going to have the two-way tour; all of those tied in, in a sense, to a talent search.

1609 Can you have the same person win two years in a row? Or the same people, the same groups, win two years in a row? How will that work?

1610 MR. SLAIGHT: Well, let me go through them one by one, just to explain them a little bit.

1611 For our money to FACTOR going directly to Urban music, that's going to create a lot of CDs, and that will start immediately. So we are going to see some more product coming from that contribution.

1612 In terms of the compilation --

1613 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: If I can interrupt -- I might as well put this on the record.

1614 In your reply to the interrogatories, you indicate you have a letter from FACTOR. And, for the record, they have agreed to this plan of yours?

1615 MR. SLAIGHT: Yes, they have.

1616 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thanks very much.

1617 MR. SLAIGHT: The compilation CD. We were looking for 10 artists per year, okay, from the Calgary region. We don't see that as being a problem. We are not asking them to come in with a finished tape. We are going to take them into the studio to record these artists. So we don't see that as being a problem.

1618 From those 10, we are going to select one. That winner will be judged by our listeners and by people in the music industry. That is the one artist that we want to see each year come out of this contest that we can take to the next level. We will take them in, they will do an entire CD, a video, and we will pay for them to tour across the country.

1619 So that's not a lot -- I don't think that is too much to expect out of this area. The Two-Way Tour, we will be taking some of those artists from Calgary and taking them into our other marketplaces, but we will also be bringing urban artists from other parts of Canada into Calgary to perform. Again, we believe there is ample talent out there in this country to do 26 shows per year.

1620 Live concert series, those will be some of the Two-Way Tour, but we will be recording 26 times a year, and we will be running these live to air, and we will be exchanging these concerts with our friends in Toronto and perhaps on our other radio stations.

1621 We don't see that as being, on an annual basis, onerous in terms of the amount of talent there is in this country, especially if we look at the broad strokes of urban music which includes R&B, includes hip-hop and includes reggae.

1622 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: How do you intend to keep all of this separate? Because there is an enormous amount, as you have agreed in one of your replies. There is enormous scope for overlap in these, which is not a bad thing but it is still difficult in a way for me to say, well, I can see, I can trace whatever, 350,000 for the compilation as opposed to the 700,000 for the overall winner who is also making a CD and going on a bit of a tour -- I guess it would be more than a bit of a tour for that kind of money.

1623 How do you plan to keep all of this separate?

1624 MR. SLAIGHT: I think we are going to have to hire a full-time person to do this in Calgary, and work with Farley in terms of the national picture. We are prepared to file annually with the Commission a synopsis of our expenses and where the money has gone to verify that we are spending this money on an annual basis.

1625 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Are you prepared to keep all of these different accounts separate?

1626 MR. SLAIGHT: We are prepared to keep everything separate and file a document every year which goes through each benefit and indicates that we are spending the money as laid out.

1627 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Have you factored in already, in these numbers, a full-time person or is this an awareness that is growing?

1628 MR. SLAIGHT: The more we talked about it, the more it's obvious we are going to be hiring a full-time person to do this.

1629 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Because I noticed that in a number of your -- in the application you have come up with very hard numbers on this list and they reflect -- but for one that I will ask you about in a moment -- exactly the numbers that are in your application. But you used the words "at least" in two or three of them.

1630 Is there a sense in your mind that you may end up spending more money than what is up on that board?

1631 MR. SLAIGHT: I'm trying to recall which ones we used the words "at least" with and then perhaps I could comment better. I mean I don't think at the end of the year we are going to be exactly at those precise numbers. Some could be slightly hire, some could be slightly lower. That might have been what we were referring to there.

1632 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let me see. I did make some notes on it. This is not totally off the cuff.

1633 On your annual contest you say, on page 17 of the application, "at least $50,000 per year."

1634 MR. SLAIGHT: Right.

1635 "The overall winner is $100,000 each year" -- so that is specific.

1636 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, I may have...

1637 MR. SLAIGHT: In terms of that particular benefit --

1638 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: One other time, sorry, actually, you day say in breaking down your benefits into two packages, the fiscal and the non-fiscal, you say, and this is on page 16 of your application, quote, "at least $700,000 a year in direct financial support."

1639 So that is at least two "at leasts" I have found, and there may be another.

1640 MR. SLAIGHT: I think we used "at least" with the 40 per cent Canadian talent as well. I think what we are saying is we are going to err on the upside as opposed to the downside in both of these commitments.

1641 MS AKIZUKI: I would add that with some of our initiatives -- for example, if we are going to be taking an artist on a tour, taking care of the expenses that this person would not normally be able to take care of, we are not sure at this point whether we are talking about one person or a duo or a group.

1642 MR. FLEX: And if I could just add. We are not sure whether all provinces would be included in that tour, how many stops would be on that tour. There are a lot of variables in that line.

1643 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But the numbers that you have put up on your exhibit boards today and the numbers in your applications are floors rather than ceilings. Is that a fair way to put it?

1644 MR. SLAIGHT: The overall number is a floor. The individual numbers may vary slightly up or down depending on how these benefits end up coming out at the end of the year, but they will be close.

1645 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's clear to me.

1646 The one that I referred to, I referred to one benefit that there was a contradiction on that -- I must say, staff found an anomaly. I don't have the eagle eyes of some of our staff, so I have to give them credit.

1647 On page 20 of Schedule 21 you refer to a $25,000 annual expenditure for the high school series, but later in Schedule F, and if I am doing my math correctly today the number is 50. So could you just clarify for the record which it is?

1648 MR. SLAIGHT: That's a good question. The numbers you see up here are our numbers.

1649 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, I was going to ask Commissioner Cram to do the long division for me, but --

--- Laughter / Rires

1650 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  -- she didn't excel in math yesterday and apparently that is genetic predisposition.

1651 So if I do the math -- here I go, taking the primrose path followed by my predecessor -- if I do the math correctly on the high school series we come up with $50,000 a year. Are you in agreement with that?

1652 MR. SLAIGHT: That's correct.

1653 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thanks very much. Always a little nerve-wracking doing that kind of stuff.

1654 Moving on, then, since we are on the subject of benefits, to a couple of other questions I have, most of them, I must say, centred on the problem I saw in keeping separate accounting.

1655 You have undertaken to keep separate accounting and you have undertaken to spend that amount of money, so really a lot of questions go very quickly out the window when that happens. But there are some areas which trouble me a little bit in the sense of whether in fact they are Canadian talent development. They may be beneficial but you yourselves make a very clear distinction between fiscal Canadian talent development and other benefits that are good things but don't fit into the guidelines. I am looking of course at things like funding the urban Web site -- I am not talking about merit here, we are simply looking at the guidelines in Canadian talent development -- Internet streaming; the CWC, as wonder an organization as that may be; designated groups; advisory boards.

1656 I wonder if we could just start perhaps and take them one at a time. Again, I am not trying to -- I see you consulting counsel there -- I am not trying to make your horoscope --

1657 MR. SLAIGHT: I just wanted to make sure he was still with us.

--- Laughter / Rires

1658 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: If he passes out you will be the first to know. At his billing rate, he should stay awake all the time. That's my view.

1659 MR. SLAIGHT: Absolutely.

--- Laughter / Rires

1660 MR. SLAIGHT: You have obviously seen his invoices.

1661 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's the absolute minimum I think that you can demand.

--- Laughter / Rires

1662 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's start with: funding the urban Web site.

1663 A Web site could be just looked upon as another marketing tool. It is certainly not going to do your radio station any harm, in this day and age, to have one. How does that fit into Canadian talent development?

1664 MR. SLAIGHT: It is not our Web site, first of all; it is an existing Web site which is run independently. We have met with the gentleman who owns and operates that Web site. It is really the only urban Web site in Canada that is up and running. In our discussions with him, it became evident that if he doesn't get some financial assistance, the Web site may go down. So we are giving the money to this gentleman to keep the Web site running to help support Canadian artists.

1665 We have also indicated to him that some of the money must go towards developing a more comprehensive page focusing on Canadian urban artists, tours, CD releases, et cetera.

1666 So it's not our Web site.

1667 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You are right about that, and that is clear in your application. But it will link to your Web site. Am I not right on that?

1668 MR. SLAIGHT: We don't even know that we are going to have a Web site. That is not part of our business plan or our proposal.

1669 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I keep on this because I have some recollection, and I don't have it marked in my file, but are you going to have a page on it? Is that the way it works?

1670 MR. SLAIGHT: There will be a link to our streaming from this Web site.

1671 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Ah. That's the connection.

1672 MR. SLAIGHT: Right.

1673 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So how then, to come back, as admirable as it may be to help this gentleman out with his Web site, how does that connect to Canadian talent development?

1674 MR. SLAIGHT: Again, Farley can talk about the Web site because I know it has helped some of his artists in terms of their careers. Why don't we start there.

1675 MR. FLEX: Yes. Just as an example, the gentleman that runs the operation, his name is Darryl Rodway(ph), and he is relentless in contacting the various managers and labels and what have you to get information to expose Canadian talent.

1676 He will send me e-mails once a week -- Farley, what do you have for me? What do you have for me? -- and I can, through my contacts with VideoFact and what else, whatever else, I can then give him information about artists, again, that most people nationally wouldn't have heard of and he will contact those individuals, do little bios on that, what's happening with them, where they are performing, when the CD is expected to come out, where they are in the stage of their careers, who good contacts are, good lawyers are.

1677 He is really ambitious, but very, like I said, relentless. He is great. From a personal standpoint, when he covers artists that we as managers handle, it gives us avenues, especially for the unsigned artists, that we can then direct somebody else to and say, "Okay, if you can't make it to the showcase, check Urbnet, there is some information, that kind of thing. So it's a very, very beneficial service.

1678 MR. SLAIGHT: It is sort of a meeting place for artists across the country where they can go and check out what everyone else is up to.

1679 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And if this gentleman, despite your support, should cease to exist -- Heaven forbid! -- where would the money go then? Have you thought of that unfortunate sort of fall back?

1680 MR. SLAIGHT: I think if we contribute the money, he is fine, he is okay to continue. That money allows him, and he is confident that he will continue, so, no, we haven't had that drastic thought at this point in time.

1681 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And should be in our deliberations come to the tragic conclusion that it isn't Canadian talent development, what would you do under those circumstance?

1682 MR. SLAIGHT: I would have to give him the bad news, but we would commit to spending the money in another area if that was necessary.

1683 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Maybe it would be question to put at this point, before we do the details of the other. Is the $4,900 on the table, and if for example, some of these initiatives were found not to fit to the Canadian Talent Development Guidelines, would the $4,900 -- four million, sorry -- $4,900,000 --

1684 MR. SLAIGHT: It's a large number.

1685 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Yes, it is. Would that go into Canadian talent development in some way?

1686 MR. SLAIGHT: Absolutely. That's a firm commitment from us.

1687 MS AKIZUKI: One of the things actually that we may do -- and I don't want to speak out of turn, sitting beside Gary as I am -- with some of those initiatives, as you suggested, if it is decided that they are not specific CTD initiatives, we would be committed to still spending the money and probably my opinion would be to send it to organizations that we have already committed to like FACTOR, like Prairie Music Week, because as we have already stated we specified that that money is for urban artists.

1688 So again, it ties into the whole building of an infrastructure for this industry.

1689 MR. SLAIGHT: Lisa, I think you are right. She is absolutely correct there, okay, I am just trying to give her a little bit of a rough time here.

1690 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, save that for later.

1691 Internet streaming. Why is that Canadian talent development and not simply a second forum for your radio station?

1692 MR. SLAIGHT: Well, we don't see streaming at this point in time as being either a source of revenue or a source of increased audience and in that this format is not available in many markets in Canada, we see it as an opportunity to take these Canadian urban artists to other marketplaces so people can listen to them and hear their music and hopefully help stimulate the whole sector.

1693 It also takes Canadian urban artists to the rest of the world, people in Chicago, Boston can listen to this radio station and hear what we are doing in the urban music industry in Canada.

1694 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Certainly, the groups that you have targeted are of the right age to be computer literate, and in that sense it could be a very useful marketing tool for your station. Wouldn't you agree?

1695 MR. SLAIGHT: Potentially yes, but we haven't seen evidence of that yet. It's still early. I mean, again speaking about my kids, I know by 12 year old does all of her work on a computer now and doesn't necessarily spend a whole lot of time listening to the radio, but that could also be because this particular format isn't available in Toronto right now.

1696 So down the road, but we are not sure at this point in time what the impact is.

1697 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And if you don't buy her Eminem, she will get it from the Napster anyway, I suppose. They have ways!

1698 CWC, again is in a way seeking to detract of the good work any of these organizations do or might do, but how would you tie that contribution into Canadian talent development?

1699 MR. SLAIGHT: First of all, we are a founding member of CWC and we are also a Diamond sponsor currently. So this is above and beyond our current commitment to CWC, and in my discussions with Stephanie, we have talked about trying to come up with a way to spend this money that is going to add something to the organization and we had focused on either developing something for this area or something in terms of new media.

1700 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But you are not there yet. In other words, this is still very much in the developmental stage, this particular expenditure, in trying to tie it Canadian talent development.

1701 MR. SLAIGHT: Again, I have a letter from CWC based on our discussions and we have agreed if we do get approval that we will work together on coming up with a special way to spend this money, above and beyond our current commitment for a Diamond sponsor.

1702 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And your Designated Group Fund. Again, you have highlighted four very worthy causes, worthy groups, but I have a little trouble tying that into Canadian talent development. It may be my lack of imagination, but I don't see the connection as clear as something, for example, like CariFest expenditures which is so obvious on the face about what you are doing that it needs no examination at all.

1703 MR. SLAIGHT: Right.

1704 Well, I agree we are probably stretching the envelope a little bit on this one, but at the same time I think it would be money well spent.

1705 What we are talking about here is spending money to train, to mentor, to work with people from these four groups in terms of developing their careers. We also have an arrangement with ImagiNative who do an aboriginal media arts festival in Toronto annually. We were a sponsor of it for their first festival this year, and we will be taking people from this area from the aboriginal groups to this festival -- and a bursary based on our involvement with the community.

1706 We look at the recording industry. We will work with a recording studio in Calgary so that if somebody wants to get into the recording business from one of these groups, we will pay for them to be able to go in and learn how to do this craft.

1707 Internships. Most radio stations who bring interns in, the entrants do it for nothing, they do it as a training program. We will work with people from these groups and we will pay them to come in and learn about the radio industry as they are working on this program.

1708 So we see the money being hard cash spent in training areas that are not currently being done, that are above and beyond the call of duty.

1709 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Running the risk of being terribly non-focused here -- and I am not getting into the spirit of what you are doing, and not wanting you to in any way endanger your application, but wouldn't you agree that bringing people and training them to work in a radio station is a bit of stretch, to use your expression.

1710 MR. SLAIGHT: That's a very small portion of what we are talking about here, and most of what we are talking about a big portion of it is taking people out to the festival in Toronto, and also --

1711 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: On the artistic side, in other words, rather than on the technical side.

1712 MR. SLAIGHT: Exactly.

1713 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: All right. Thank you very much.

1714 Finally your advisory board. The same sort of questions. Advisory board are helpful, community input is always a good thing, but how will that tie in, how will your board tie into the furtherance of talent development?

1715 MR. SLAIGHT: Well, again in the process of trying to work on this industry, the urban industry, a big portion of that will go towards travel. We see in terms of our working with Milestone and our working with the advisory board, the advisory board will have people from Calgary. They are also representative with Denham from Toronto and Tony Sutherland from the Urban Music Association, and we feel it will be important for this board to meet in each other's marketplaces, to be able to check out the music scene in each other's marketplace.

1716 So that $10,000 is a direct cost for travel an on annual basis.

1717 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So the emphasis of this board is looking at local talent where they live, in other words, or where they are situated and then what? Where do they go from there?

1718 MR. SLAIGHT: The board will have two mandates. One is to keep an eye on the local community, work with the local community. We have Lorna here from CariFest who will sit on that board, and as well we will have a national representation with our connection with Milestone and the Urban Music Association because we feel it's important also to focus on the music.

1719 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Using that as a segue, what is exactly -- how would you describe the connection between this station, the Milestone station, perhaps further stations that may come online, depending on how things go? You called it at one point, I think in your application, the "unwired network". Can you give me just some narrative on that?

1720 MR. SLAIGHT: Sure -- and again, I would like Farley to speak to this because he will really be our connection in Toronto. It's important that we work together in a whole bunch of areas if we are going to create these urban stars and we also have the advantage in our radio group of a station in Vancouver that does play some urban music and will be available to support some of our initiatives and our station in Montreal.

1721 An example of the unwired network is if Choclair has a new CD out and he is in Toronto and he is going into the radio station, the Milestone station for an interview, we can link it up from the interview in Calgary, at the same open up the phone lines.

1722 Farley, do you want to expand on that?

1723 MR. FLEX: Yes. I want to say two things, first of all. As altruistic as some of these initiatives may seem, I think it is important to understand that it's sort of a circle of life we are trying to create here where, as I said earlier, that food chain that starts with finding that talent, developing it, and giving it exposure, as much as that may happen and flourish in Calgary, there is still going to be an underlying mandate for the artist to get exposure in what is considered the mecca of urban music for this country which is Toronto.

1724 And we can, blow up an artist in Calgary, but it really doesn't mean anything if he or she is not getting any representation or respect, or what have you, in Toronto.

1725 So those synergies, as we examine them and take advantage of them, are what is going to make the difference for a Calgary artist in any genre of music to be honest. An artist's prominence in your local market is always important. It's basically collateral for telling somebody in another city what you are about and how good you are -- I am doing well in my home town, you know. But until you get, just like New York for somebody from Minneapolis, right, you need representation, you need to prove that you can do it in the mecca of the market you are after.

1726 MR. SLAIGHT: The live concerts will be a great example also. That will be an opportunity for us to record Calgary area urban artists and run them in Toronto for exposure in a different marketplace and also bring artists in from Toronto that Milestone may be working with and record them in Calgary as well.

1727 MS AKIZUKI: I would just like to add to that, your question regarding the synergies between Milestone and this radio station, and again a lot of the synergies will be non music-based. With reference to this unwired network, we can have discussions between people in Calgary listening to our radio station and the audience of Milestone in Toronto discussing issues, or sharing -- it doesn't even have to be something so serious as a social issue, it could be sharing information about a festival or event that is going on.

1728 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: If that is the upside, is the down side though that little Calgary might get swallowed by big Toronto, that what you are wiring into -- let's have Choclair, to use your example, going to Toronto, being interviewed, community input, whatever, maybe have an open line of some sort, all of sudden it's just better than you have here so you replay it here. Is that the down side?

1729 MR. SLAIGHT: No, absolutely not. We will be a local radio station and we operate in this market permanently and we know what is involved to keep people in Calgary tuning into a radio station. So our priority will be to make sure that the radio station reflects Calgary. The synergy potential between Calgary and Milestone I think are to the benefit of the artist.

1730 MS AKIZUKI: If I can just speak for myself. That is going to be one of my primary focuses, to make sure that it's a complementary relationship, but obviously my primary concern is going to be fostering the music community in Calgary with input from Farley and his people at Milestone so that it's a complementary relationship.

1731 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you for that. I want to move on the local -- picking up on Mr. Slaight's indication of how local you would be and just take a little look at some of the other programming you would be doing locally.

1732 I read with interest some of the information that you had in your letter of July 24, 2000, which was a letter in response to a series of questions put by the CRTC staff and you discussed in that letter some of your plans for the local programming, 122 hours of local programming, 122 hours of locally produced programming. They have committed to, as I understand it, the unwired network and the sort of thing we are talking about here.

1733 On page 6 of that letter you refer to spoken word programming and indicate that 12.4 per cent of your spoken word programming will be -- sorry, 12.4 per cent of all programming will be talk, as you call it, spoken word.

1734 I wanted to look at a little bit of that because the break down, if I have got it correctly, is as follows. You say, and I am quoting here from about two-thirds of the way down page 6:

"As for spoken word programming the following sets out the break down of the amount of the different types of spoken word programming that we will be providing. Local news, 6 per cent; surveillance (described here as traffic and weather) 91 per cent; news, 6 per cent; sports, 3 per cent." (As read)

1735 MR. SLAIGHT: That was an error. That was a typo there, just so you know. That does not add up to 100 per cent, as you probably figured out.

1736 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I was going to get to that later, but we assumed it was advertising that was the other 10 per cent.

1737 MR. SLAIGHT: We put in news twice by mistake there.

1738 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Oh, that one, right.

1739 MR. SLAIGHT: Just so you know.

1740 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I had Barb do the math on that one and she thought it did add up to 100 per cent.

1741 MR. SLAIGHT: Actually, Peter did the math at our end.

1742 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: They must be using the same abacus.

1743 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I had 98 in physics in grade 12, so don't think I didn't know what I was doing.

1744 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Yes, but we are dealing with math here, Barbara.

1745 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Ask me a physics question.

1746 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We won't get this on the transcript, but I have always wanted to know how linear accelerators worked, so we can do that on the break. "Losers" is in twice.

1747 I am kind of interested in this break down because I want to know how different it is or, first of all, is it different from what is going on in local radio. You are in local radio. Is this a fairly normal break down or is this somewhat different?

1748 MR. SLAIGHT: I think it's relatively normal, given what the radio station is going to be focusing on. There will be news. There will be sports. There will be a lot of coverage of local events and again I will get Lisa to talk to it somewhat. So I think the break down is relatively normal in terms of the marketplace.

1749 Maybe Lisa can talk a little bit about what will comprise some of these numbers.

1750 MS AKIZUKI: I would like to start off by adding on what Gary just said in terms of the numbers being fairly normal, fairly average because this will be a music-based station. Most of us know that on music-based FM radio station you are not going to find a great deal of news because people simply don't go to FM for that any more. They are going to the AM stations or they are turning on their televisions or they are reading the newspaper, and also going to the Internet now.

1751 So I really want to stress that, first of all, we are not saying that we are going to be a news intensive station and we make no pretensions on that.

1752 With regards to the content of the news that we will provide, I think that we will be very proud in being very unique, much as the music is unique. We will draw people to us who are interested in that.

1753 Our news and information programming will be unique. You won't find the same stories, the same angle as you will in all of the other radio stations and media outlets. We will be far more community based, if you will, talking about events again that are of interest to our audience.

1754 We may be looking at some of the same stories as other radio stations, but with a mind to speaking to our younger audience.

1755 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am trying to find the spot in your application and not succeeding. I should get more of those little red things that people clip into everything, but there is some place in the application where you say that you are going to hire actually a whole separate news staff, separate and apart from the news staff you have now. I don't understand why.

1756 There just seems to be so little news here, that why would you do that? Why would you put so much resources into news? As I read it, I mean just looking at what you call your typical daily program or typical day's program as one of the appendices to your letter of July 24, there just doesn't seem to be very much news.

1757 MR. SLAIGHT: We are not talking about hiring seven or eight people here. We are just suggesting that our news people, person or people, will be different from the people that do our news on our FM and our AM radio station and will focus on different types of news.

1758 MS AKIZUKI: Yes, I think it is going to be particularly important with this radio station doing this format that the people who are providing the news and information understand the culture and really understand the people that we are trying to speak to, just as with the music if we say that we are one thing and when people come to us they find that it is not what they thought. I think you can carry that thought through on the news and information side.

1759 We propose, as we are, so stringently to speak for the community and then people tune into us because they expect to hear a different kind of information. If they are not getting that, then we are not fulfilling our promise to them.

1760 It is going to be particularly important that it is somebody who has the news credentials, but also understands the community that we are speaking to.

1761 MR. SLAIGHT: I think to bring up a bad subject, but a good example, might be we would probably not focus on the Nortel stock in our newscasts on this radio station. We would be more likely to talk about an event going on in the community.

1762 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We spoke about this a little bit with the applicants from Newcap I think it was yesterday and perhaps it is an area that really this process shouldn't be going into, but it does fascinate me and, unfortunately, you are captive of my fascination. But do you have --

1763 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are captive for a couple more minutes and then we are going to take the morning break. We will have a few questions after that as well.

1764 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We will take a break and Barb and I will discuss linear accelerators and then come back.

1765 But you talk about, you use the word in one of your submissions, slanting the news. When you put the word "slant" together with the word "news" it always gets me a little nervous, I have to confess. That is on page 8 of your July 24, 2000 letter, where you say:

"The news programming presentation and slant will also be developed to reflect the needs and interests of Calgary ethnic communities which will also be distinctive from our other stations." (As read)

1766 Is that a good approach to news gathering and to news dissemination?

1767 MR. SLAIGHT: I believe it is. We run a very successful news station in Toronto and one in Montreal as well.

1768 When we say "slant" I don't think we are talking about political here. I think we are talking about in terms of where the audience -- where the focus will be in terms of the audience.

1769 There are some things of interest to a 17 or 18-year old that a 50-year old really doesn't care a whole lot about and vice versa.

1770 MS AKIZUKI: I want to be sure that nobody misunderstands that we are talking about rewriting the news, so to speak, and I will go back again to our purpose as being a voice of the community which we have referred to a number of times.

1771 I think an example that I could give that will clarify this for you is I live in Winnipeg currently. In the last year or year and a half there have been a rash of arson fires. I noticed that during that time there was a lot of focus on these arson fires being set by youths and, therefore, in the newscasts and in the newspaper a lot of it was slanted, if you will, to talk about that angle, and not exactly those rotten kids these days, but getting towards that angle.

1772 What we did at our radio station is we tried to turn it around and give the youths that voice to say, "hey, look, we are not all that bad." What we did is we ran a PSA campaign where kids at high schools could submit their ideas for PSAs of what to do to counteract these arson attacks.

1773 We were getting suggestions like if you see people hanging around abandoned buildings call the police, et cetera. Hopefully that clarifies what we mean by slant. In a lot of cases it's I think just showing another side of it.

1774 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I'm glad to have that clarification. It is certainly a comforting one, but it was not what I was getting at all though, but if it sounded as though I were I am pleased you have set the record straight.

1775 What I was getting at was 6 per cent of 12.4 per cent is a very small window of opportunity. If you are then further sort of culling through the available news stories, which of course everyone does, we don't get all the news in the world, but culling through to look for ones that would be of more interest to your audience, so Nortel hits the cutting room floor, but -- I don't know -- some famous urban artist killed in a car crash obviously would make the news. But is there time even for a mention of the big news events of the day in the amount of time you have set aside here and do you feel that there should be? Do you have a community duty to offer at least the bare bones of the major news stories of the day?

1776 MR. SLAIGHT: A great deal of our on air talk will not necessarily be newscast. It will be dialogue with the community.

1777 Our newscasts will be short. There will be headlines and they won't be expansive. Again, that is our opinion of what the younger audience is interested in when they listen to an FM radio station these days.

1778 If they want expansive newscasts they will go to QR here or one of the other radio stations that does news.

1779 MS AKIZUKI: I think you do raise a good point, but we will certainly keep an open mind to perhaps expanding in areas that need to be expanded on. I think that is where the local members of our Advisory Board will come into play and they will be able to help us tremendously in that regard.

1780 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The Chair is signalling me that it is break time and that's fine with me.

1781 THE CHAIRPERSON: Time for a break.

1782 Mr. Secretary, we will return at eleven o'clock.

1783 MR. BURNSIDE: Yes.

1784 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 1043 / Suspension à 1043

--- Upon resuming at 1105 / Reprise à 1105

1785 THE CHAIRPERSON: I will call the meeting back to order.

1786 Commissioner Langford will continue his questions of the Standard application.

1787 Commissioner Langford...?

1788 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I don't have many questions left; they are ones that are left over and don't seem to connect to much, but they are connected to your application -- that's the common theme here.

1789 You did talk a little bit about your projected revenues, at one point this morning, and I think I indicated that I would like to get back to that -- and if I didn't, I should have because, as you yourself stated, your revenues that you project are very, very low -- well, not very, very low but they are certainly lower than the others. I wonder if you could give me some sense of why that is, why you fixed on that particular level.

1790 MR. SLAIGHT: Again, I'm just looking at the chart here, Commissioner, and our revenues put us kind of in the middle of the pack. We are approximately the same as one of the groups; we are higher than one of the groups; and we are lower than two of the groups.

1791 So, in terms of how we arrived at the number, I can maybe get Tom Peacock to talk to it a little bit but because we are in the marketplace and because we are currently selling on a daily basis in Calgary and selling the market nationally, based on the share projections, we feel our revenue numbers are slightly conservative but reasonable.

1792 Tom, can you expand a little bit?

1793 MR. PEACOCK: Certainly.

1794 The way that we came to our revenue figure was by calling upon our knowledge in the market and after selling our radio stations in Calgary for many, many years, what we did is we looked at the rates that we would be able to get on the radio station, both before the BBM was to come out for us and give us actual ratings and after the BBM came out. We looked at those rates, we based those rates -- we came upon those rates by looking at what the new Rogers station was getting for their product that we have been selling against for the last year, we looked at the rates that we got on our AM station when we re-launched it four years ago, and we came to a rate that we felt was realistic, both before and after the BBM. We then looked at what the sell-out levels would be expected to reach on the radio station in the first few months on the air before we had ratings and then for the rest of the first year after we did have ratings, and we laid that out on a spreadsheet that gave us the $2 million that we have projected for the first year.

1795 Now, that number will go up considerably after Year 2 and 3, as again has been our experience in the market.

1796 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But not climbing -- taking Year 3 or 4, if you like, as a kind of median to mid-licence term -- not climbing as fast as some of the other projections, realizing that projections are projections but --

1797 MR. PEACOCK: Sure.

1798 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  -- not climbing really not anywhere near the speed as some of the others.

1799 MR. PEACOCK: No. We fully realize that a share point in the younger demos is not worth the same amount of money the share point is worth in the core demos, like the 25 to 54, and that there just isn't the same amount of money in those younger demos as you find in the core demos.

1800 MR. SLAIGHT: Most of the advertising dollars are targeted 25 to 54, and that's where the big chunk of the money is, both nationally and locally, and in that our target audience is younger, we will not see some of the -- and that's the reason some of the more mainstream applicants have put in higher revenue, because they are going to impact that demo more than we will.

1801 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So why do it? Why not choose another format? To return Question 1. I mean if your own projections tell you that you just won't be doing as well as other projected formats by other professional projectors, why go that route?

1802 MR. SLAIGHT: Well, because we believe there's a viable opening in this market for this format and, over the course of two or three years, we will make money. We are in the position where, because we are already in the marketplace, we can afford perhaps not to hit the high numbers as quickly as some of the other groups. But there's definitely revenue for this radio station out there in the marketplace, and in terms of national advertisers as well.

1803 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: If you do really well with the two stations you have here -- we will respect your confidentiality, obviously, and not mention figures, but they are impressive -- is it possible that you are understating?

1804 MR. SLAIGHT: Well, when I submit my projection every year, my father would say so, yes.

1805 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I suppose it's better than the other way around.

1806 MR. SLAIGHT: I would use the word "conservative". I believe that our numbers are reasonable, conservative, based on the target audience and based on our experience in the marketplace.

1807 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you for that.

1808 Just jumping to -- I'm trying to make it connect. You mentioned the entrance, or the sort of re-entrance if I can call it, of Rogers in a bigger way, recently, and you mentioned, as well, with your graphic over here on this side of the room, the difficulties that you face selling against Rogers and against Corus.

1809 Tell me, how this is going to solve your problem, in a sense? In a sense, you are doing quite well on the return, as you agreed. Dad's happy with what you are doing with the existing two stations. How is this going to make such a huge difference?

1810 MR. SLAIGHT: Well, for two reasons, I think.

1811 First of all, Rogers, in that they have recently taken over the Rawlco radio stations, have taken one of their stations and targeted directly against CJAY, and we haven't felt the impact of that format change yet. So we feel we have tough months and years ahead of us, in terms of the success we have had in the past at CJAY.

1812 In terms of this radio station, it will not impact our current radio stations; it will give us a new audience to add to our two radio stations; it will give us some expanded reach; it will allow us to be more effective, both locally and nationally, in terms of selling our package against not only the 83 per cent that you see there nationally but we also -- and, again, maybe Tom can speak to the local market -- but it's also hard for us selling against four Rogers stations and three Corus stations in this marketplace.

1813 Tom, do you want to...

1814 MR. PEACOCK: I can just add a little bit more to that.

1815 Particularly in the case of Rogers, where they do package their four radio stations up in the market and they offer, you know, incentive for buying that package of radio stations and they take -- they add stations or take stations out based on a demographic that they might be trying to deliver.

1816 If we had another radio station in the market, it would give us the ability to package our three and be able to cover all of the demographics, from the younger end, with the new station up, to the older end, with our AM station.

1817 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But it certainly cuts back on the diversity, in the sense of players.

1818 So, how do you balance between the attractiveness of bringing in a brand new player to this market -- it's a vibrant market -- and the problems you would face? What advice would you give us?

1819 This is home run time for you, but I mean what advice would you give us as we try to choose between those two very desirable ends, one to bring in a brand new voice, bring more diversity to this vibrant market, and the other to help you in what you see as a bit of a fierce slog ahead?

1820 MR. SLAIGHT: Well, there's ownership diversity and there's format diversity.

1821 In terms of some of the applicants, we don't necessarily believe that they are offering format diversity, whereas they may be offering ownership diversity.

1822 We believe our format offers format diversity.

1823 Should you grant a licence to one of the mainstream competitors in this marketplace, what you have is you have a giant -- Peter, what was the word?

1824 MR. GRANT: An 800-pound gorilla.

1825 MR. SLAIGHT: That's it.

1826 -- and you currently have a 200-pound gorilla -- which would be us. If you grant the licence to someone else, you would still have an 800-pound gorilla and you would have two 100-pound gorillas. Whereas if we have the opportunity to add to our relative strength in the marketplace, it gives us the opportunity to more competitively compete with the two other groups in the marketplace.

1827 The other thing is that three commercial formats will take definitely take a big chunk -- if they are granted -- would definitely take a big chunk out of CJAY's ratings. They are mainstream. They will hurt CJAY.

1828 So, not only will we not have the opportunity to add to our position but we will also be weakened in terms of the ratings of our FM station currently.

1829 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So, it's a double whammy for you. The 800-pound gorilla continues to lurk in the bamboo -- boy, this is going to get really thin, isn't it?

--- Laughter / Rires

1830 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Why don't we go back to reality here.

1831 The Rogers ability to market will still be there, as strong as ever, plus they are poaching on some of your format.

1832 MR. SLAIGHT: Exactly.

1833 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And the new people will be poaching on your format, as well. So you feel doubly threatened.

1834 MR. SLAIGHT: Absolutely.

1835 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. I think I have only the technological question that we have been asking everyone.

1836 The first one is -- I think Shakespeare used to specialize in comic relief, didn't he? So here it comes -- would you accept an AM -- I can barely get my mouth around this question --

--- Laughter / Rires

1837 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  -- it's so ridiculous.

--- Laughter / Rires

1838 Would you accept -- I really support staff, but sometimes the questions are just off the wall. I'm doing this -- I was haunted from above.

1839 Would you accept an AM frequency rather than the proposed 98.5-FM frequency?

1840 MR. SLAIGHT: I think not.

1841 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Do you want to expand on that?

--- Laughter / Rires

1842 MR. SLAIGHT: If I must.

1843 No, it definitely would not work for this particular format. Kids do not know about AM radio whatsoever. So that would be "no".

1844 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And an alternative frequency. Should we decide that we are so attracted by the applications before us that more than one merits licensing, would you accept -- have your engineers found an alternative somewhere that you are keeping in your hip pocket and are you ready to accept an alternative if that were offered to you?

1845 MR. SLAIGHT: We don't have a frequency in our hip pocket, at this point in time. This is the frequency that we believe this format warrants, and that's the frequency that we would like to be considered for.

1846 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And that is the frequency we are considering you for. But would you accept an alternative FM frequency if we granted this one to one of the other applicants?

1847 MR. SLAIGHT: Peter, maybe you can answer this question, but are you referring to a specific frequency? Because we are only aware of this frequency and the one that the other two groups are applying for.

1848 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Assuming an alternative existed, and your engineers could find it, would you accept the alternative?

1849 MR. SLAIGHT: Assuming that, yes, we would.

1850 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Those are my questions.

1851 I think, at this time, the Chair gives you an opportunity to speak from the heart, but I will let him do that.

1852 THE CHAIRPERSON: Not quite. We will have a question from Commissioner Cram first and then we will give you an opportunity to sum up as to why your application is the best use of the frequency, in just a few minutes.

1853 MR. SLAIGHT: Thank you.

1854 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cram...?

1855 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. President.

1856 What I guess I didn't understand was the issue on the selling and that particular -- entitled "Calgary Private Radio Stations".

1857 I understand their share. What I didn't understand is I thought I heard you say, Mr. Slaight, that Corus and Rogers sold together as a package.

1858 MR. SLAIGHT: Correct. Nationally. They own the same rep show. They own CBS, which is a national sales operation run out of Toronto. Corus owns it with Rogers. As such, they package their radio stations and go to advertisers and try to sell them as much of the marketplace through their stations as they can.

1859 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And that's national advertising?

1860 MR. SLAIGHT: That's correct.

1861 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And that would be what percentage --

1862 MR. SLAIGHT: Twenty-five to 30 per cent of our revenue is normally the range.

1863 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. And yet, here, did I understand -- and I'm sorry, I'm forgetting --

1864 MR. SLAIGHT: Mr. Peacock.

1865 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. Did I hear you say that Rogers would sell, as a package, their stations and Corus would sell theirs?

1866 MR. PEACOCK: That's correct.

1867 COMMISSIONER CRAM: They don't sell together in the local market?

1868 MR. PEACOCK: No, they don't. They only sell the seven-station package nationally and they sell their three- or four-station packages separately in the local market.

1869 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

1870 Thank you, Mr. Chair.

1871 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr. Slaight and panel members, the floor is yours for a couple of minutes to give us your best shot.

1872 MR. SLAIGHT: We figured we might have this opportunity.

1873 Why should Standard Radio be licensed to operate a station on 98.5?

1874 I'm going to reduce it to five points; and they would be as follows:

1875 First, we feel that with a third station in Calgary we will begin to address the major competitive imbalance that exists between us and the other station groups in the marketplace.

1876 Second, Standard Radio has a record of community service that is unparalleled in our industry.

1877 For example, in Montreal we raised over one-half a million dollars last year for various local charities including $250,000 for the Missing Children's Network.

1878 In Toronto, we are one of the two biggest benefactors for the Sick Kid's Hospital, having raised over $10 million over the last 12 years.

1879 In Edmonton, the Bear Children's Fund raised $167,000 last year for a variety of children's charities. Here in Calgary, we raised $170,000 for local charities and donated over $1 million in public service air time.

1880 Our second point is our track record of community service is unparalleled in our industry.

1881 Thirdly, we have chosen a programming format that is distinctive, unique and yet broadly popular, concentrating on music that is largely unplayed by the existing radio stations.

1882 Fourth, we propose a Canadian content level of 40 per cent, which is unsurpassed.

1883 Finally, we propose $5.9 million in Canadian talent benefits with a package designed to have local and national synergies that will benefit diversity in the broadcasting system.

1884 Those are our final comments.

1885 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Slaight and Standard panellists. We will now take a brief break.

1886 I'm sorry?

--- Pause / Pause

1887 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry. I understand Legal has a couple of questions first.

1888 Mr. Batstone.

1889 MR. BATSTONE: Not only does Commissioner Langford hate our questions but they are not even going to let me talk any more.

--- Laughter / Rires

1890 MR. BATSTONE: I would just like to take you back for a few clarifications, first on the Canadian talent development initiatives. The first one would be the urban talent contest. I would just like to get a few details on it.

1891 Who would be eligible to compete in the contest? Would it just be Calgary area performers or is it wider than that?

1892 MR. SLAIGHT: Are you talking about the compilation CD?

1893 MR. BATSTONE: My understanding is the compilation CD would come out of the contest.

1894 MR. SLAIGHT: Right. It would be Calgary area urban artists.

1895 MR. BATSTONE: Okay. Thank you very much.

1896 Then I take it from that the winner of that becomes the overall winner who gets the tour and the video and everything else.

1897 MR. SLAIGHT: That's correct.

1898 MR. BATSTONE: Do you envisage a situation or could a situation arise where there isn't a clear -- like, there is no one performer that you feel merits, you know, $100,000 expenditure in a particular year. Do you see that happening?

1899 MR. SLAIGHT: No, I don't. I think the goal is to create one star from this program annually. I think to do that you need the $100,000.

1900 MR. BATSTONE: So it is more take what you get and promote it as opposed to, you know, find a performer who is really good and promote them further. Is that it?

1901 MR. SLAIGHT: We are confident that there will be one artist coming out of this contest every year who will be great.

1902 MR. BATSTONE: So that in every year the prize will be awarded no matter what.

1903 MR. SLAIGHT: Absolutely.

1904 MR. BATSTONE: Okay.

1905 Turning, then, to the music and the message series.

1906 You mention that there is a monthly performance at a local Calgary high school. I am just wondering if you could give us an idea of how much you would expect would be expended for the staging of each of the contests. Do you have an idea of that?

1907 MR. SLAIGHT: We will pay the artist, pay for the production. We are also going to have a video produced which we will play at these shows which will focus on artists talking about issues that relate to the young people.

1908 So we are talking doing one a month times eight months, and you take the number from there. We will pay the artist, we will pay for the production, and we will pay for the video.

1909 MR. BATSTONE: So the video, the product costs of the video, would come out of that particular initiative --

1910 MR. SLAIGHT: Yes, it would.

1911 MR. BATSTONE:  -- the amount that is directed towards it.

1912 Okay. Thank you.

1913 The performers who perform at those concerts, are they the same ones who would have been involved in the contest and who would be part of the two-way tour, for instance?

1914 MR. SLAIGHT: Not necessarily, but possibly.

1915 MR. BATSTONE: Again, are we talking mostly Calgary performers?

1916 MR. SLAIGHT: These would be mostly Calgary area performers but there may be an instance where an artist is in from another part of the country and we can hook it up with the high school.

1917 MR. BATSTONE: Thank you.

1918 I would like to turn, then, to the question of Internet streaming, something that Commissioner Langford addressed earlier.

1919 I take it there is no plan right now for a Web site for the station if it were awarded a licence. Is that correct?

1920 MR. SLAIGHT: It's not in our plans right now, not to say we wouldn't do it.

1921 MR. BATSTONE: So, then, the streaming of the station would be on the Web site. Is that correct?

1922 MR. SLAIGHT: Correct.

1923 MR. BATSTONE: What happens if the station decides to start its own Web site?

1924 MR. SLAIGHT: We would also stream from our own Web site.

1925 MR. BATSTONE: So it would be on both.

1926 MR. SLAIGHT: Yes.

1927 MR. BATSTONE: Okay. Thank you.

1928 Turning now just to the Designated Group Fund. I would just like to get a sense from you as to who would be responsible for the day-to-day administration of the fund.

1929 MR. SLAIGHT: I believe Lisa, as the program director, would oversee that particular fund.

1930 MR. BATSTONE: So, again, she would be responsible for assessing the applications, I take it, deciding where the funds should be dispersed, that kind of thing.

1931 MR. SLAIGHT: In conjunction with our advisory board, yes.

1932 MR. BATSTONE: Right.

1933 What criteria would you use in determining who receives funding?

1934 MR. SLAIGHT: Again, it is at the formulation stage at this point in time. I believe we would have to set up a process whereby people can apply.

1935 In terms of sending people to ImagiNative, we would have to let it be known to the community that this is available and people would have to apply for the bursary and we would select people to go to that festival.

1936 In terms of the Recording Studio Program, again, we would have to make it known to the community and we would have to have an assessment situation whereby we can pick people to go into the program.

1937 MR. BATSTONE: How would you propose to make people aware in the community about the program?

1938 MR. SLAIGHT: Both through on the air and I believe we would probably look at running some advertising in the newspapers, to say a dirty word.

1939 MR. BATSTONE: Thank you very much. Those are all my questions.

1940 MR. SLAIGHT: Thank you.

1941 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Batstone.

1942 Thank you, Mr. Slaight and Standard panel members.

1943 We will now take a two-minute break so that the CHUM panellists can take their seats. When we come back to order we will hear the CHUM presentation and then we will break for lunch from approximately 12:00 until 1:30. The approximate part is when we begin to break. We will reconvene at 1:30 and continue on with the questioning of the CHUM panel.

1944 Thank you very much.

1945 MR. SLAIGHT: Thank you all.

--- Upon recessing at 1126 / Suspension à 1126

--- Upon resuming at 1130 / Reprise à 1130

1946 THE CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated. We will call the hearing back to order.

1947 MR. BURNSIDE: The next application to be heard is an application by CHUM Limited for a broadcasting licence to carry out an English-Language FM radio programming undertaking at Calgary on the frequency 98.5 with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts. The applicant is proposing a modern adult contemporary music format.

1948 Proceed when you are ready.

1949 MR. WATERS: Thank you, Mr. Secretary.


1950 MR. WATERS: Chairman and Members of the Commission, my name is Jim Waters. I am Executive Vice President of CHUM Limited and President of CHUM Group Radio.

1951 With me today, starting on my right, your left, are: Paul Ski, Vice President, CHUM Group Radio Western and General Manager, CFUN/CHQM-FM Vancouver; and, Ross Davies, Vice President Programming, CHUM Group Radio.

1952 On my left is Duff Roman, Vice President Industry Affairs, CHUM Limited.

1953 Starting immediately behind Duff are: Susan Farrell and Brian Farrell, Calgary Music Education Professionals; Shelley Sheppard, CHUM Limited, Corporate Accounting; and, Kerry French, Director of Research, CHUM Group Radio.

1954 At the far table, from your right to left are: Mark Lewis, Director of Business Affairs and Legal Counsel for CHUM; Mike Dorn, President, Audience Research International; and Hans Jansen, Partner, Bay Consulting Group.

1955 We will now begin our presentation.

1956 CHUM Limited began as a radio company over 45 years ago. While CHUM has grown to include conventional and specialty television, we remain committed to our roots: conventional radio.

1957 It has been demonstrated from all quarters that Calgary is underserved in terms of radio services. Since 1994, three new FM services have been licensed in Calgary and the revenue growth in the market since then exceeds 55 per cent.

1958 Once we were convinced Calgary could handle expansion, we did a programming analysis of the market. Our research identified a format hole that is not being filled.

1959 Aside from adding programming diversity to the Calgary market, we have developed a unique and meaningful initiative that will benefit the Canadian broadcasting system. CHUM Group Radio's new Canadian talent initiative, m.PLAY, which stands for Music, Performance, Learning, Advocacy and Youth, will be this country's most innovative, effective and productive program developed in support of new, young, emerging Canadian talent.

1960 Chairman, Members of the Commission, I am both pleased and excited to present to you now CHUM's plans for a new radio service for Calgary.

1961 Paul.

1962 MR. SKI: Calgary is booming. Last spring, CHUM asked the Bay Consulting Group to conduct an economic analysis of the Calgary Radio market. It confirmed it too is booming.

1963 Calgary has seen substantial increases in radio revenue and the most recent year ending August 2000 is no exception. Radio revenues increased to $50.9 million, a 9 per cent increase over the previous year.

1964 Bay Consulting projects that radio revenues will reach $58 million by 2001/2002 when a new station launches. Calgary radio is controlled by only three ownership groups whose Calgary stations enjoy the highest rate of profit growth in Canada. Since 1994/95, profits before interest and taxes grew on average 30.5 per cent annually.

1965 The lifeblood of any radio station, especially a new licensee, is retail or local advertising. Calgary's retail environment is vibrant, positive and growing at a rapid pace. There is no evidence of recession, economic challenges or belt-tightening.

1966 We surveyed a number of media buyers. Here are some quotes:

"It is a very difficult market to purchase right now. One traditional advantage of radio -- a short lead-time to purchase the medium -- is not being felt in Calgary. Demand is very high and long lead times are the norm."

"The market needs more diversity (since) radio is still the medium of choice for retailers."

1967 "Calgary needs competition", and there is "definitely room for an AC station in Calgary." Unquote.

1968 Calgary is an underserved major Canadian radio market which could easily support the introduction of a new station without causing undue financial harm to existing stations.

1969 Ross Davies will now outline our programming plans.

1970 Ross.

1971 MR. DAVIES: Thanks, Paul.

1972 With the introduction of 98.5 FM, a new radio station that we will call The Peak, Calgary will receive a brand new radio station offering programming not presently available in the market.

1973 These charts will help illustrate this fact.

1974 The first chart shows the present radio landscape with the existing operators demographically. The lower axis of the graph represents gender, blue for males and pink for females.

1975 The far left of this graph represents 100 per cent males, the far right 100 per cent females, and the centre would indicate an audience of equal percentage of males and females.

1976 The right axis shows core audience age demos as broken out in BBM. The colours red, green and blue represent the respective ownership groups.

1977 This next chart shows where and why each station is plotted on the graph.

1978 On the left side are the two rock stations. Their core audiences are male. Here is classic rock CHRK-FM and here is CJAY-FM, a classic rock station that also plays new rock. This station skews a little younger than CHRK.

1979 On the right side, you have CHFM-FM, a soft AC station appealing to older females. The youth-oriented top 40 CHR station, CKIK-FM, is located here. It appeals predominantly to 18 to 34 females. And here is the country station CKRY-FM.

1980 It is obvious that there is a formal hole here, roughly a 50-50, male-female audience with a core age target of 25 to 34. When we introduce The Peak to the Calgary radio landscape, here is where the core audience will be.

1981 As you can see, The Peak is going to move into an area not presently served by the existing Calgary radio stations.

1982 The Peak will operate in the modern adult contemporary format. CHUM retained Audience Research International to analyze the acceptability and potential listening frequency of various radio formats in Calgary. This, coupled with an analysis of existing stations, showed modern AC as the best opportunity to satisfy unmet demand.

1983 The Peak will be Calgary's only radio station playing the contemporary rock songs of the '90s and today, without the heavy metal, without the hard rock and without the rap, hip-hop or funk. This is what we refer to as modern AC.

1984 The Peak will be unique and it will bring diversity to the present radio landscape. The statio will become immersed in the Calgary community, supporting issues of concern to our audience through features such as The Peak Calendar, The Peak Community Switchboard, The Peak Christmas For Kids Toy Drive and The Peak Charitable Foundation.

1985 We will create the Calgary City Awareness Initiative, providing a guaranteed weekly schedule of 30-second announcements throughout the year at no charge to the City of Calgary. It will promote and support the city's recreational, cultural and charitable activities.

1986 News and community information will have significant presence on The Peak throughout the week covering the issues of direction relevance to our audience.

1987 In addition, The Peak will carry the CHUM national newscast and, as a contributor to the network, will reflect Calgary to the rest of Canada. Licensing CHUM's The Peak will add to the diversity of news voices in Calgary.

1988 With the introduction of this new and distinctive format to Calgary, not only will the audience be a big winner, but Canadian music as well.

1989 The Peak will provide exposure for Canadian artists that receive little or no airplay currently in Calgary. Artists like Tara MacLean, Bran Van 3000, B.T.K., Blinker the Star, Sloan, Econoline Crush and the Gandharvas will now have more regular exposure from a single radio service in Calgary.

1990 Our station will cover the local music scene with The Peak Future File. Each Monday at 8:00 p.m. we will talk to and play the music of Alberta's up and coming stars.

1991 The Peak will be an active participant in the CHUM Free Ad Plan. This is the CHUM-originated program offering free commercials to all Canadian performers whose music is played on our stations.

1992 I have touched on what we will do on air but The Peak's commitment to Canadian music goes much, much deeper. Duff Roman will now explain our new, comprehensive Canadian Talent Development Initiative: m.PLAY Calgary.

1993 Duff.

1994 MR. ROMAN: m.PLAY has been developed to address four key sectors of Canadian musical talent development.

1995 P is for performance, the ultimate expression of the musician's art.

1996 L is for learning, the education of the arts and the provision of the tools, the instruments, combining to make the dream real.

1997 A is for advocacy, building the case for music training and the growth of the individual who participates.

1998 Y is for youth, where the journey begins for each generation to ensure that Canadian musical expression will always enjoy pride of place at home and abroad.

1999 Chairman, Members of the Commission. m.PLAY Calgary will reach out to the next generation of musicians and performers through four integrated components: performance, learning and advocacy for youth.

2000 Performance will be the most visible of these commitments. Young artists will participate in mentoring workshops in small venues, showcases and recording studios with skilled professionals. We also believe that effort should be rewarded with exposure to accomplished performers in various genres of music at selected concerts.

2001 As these young artists progress, they will be invited to participate in the semi-annual Peak performance concerts which will culminate in a regional talent showcase that we hope will lead to a national event. The music mentoring workshops, concert attendance, recording facilities, audio production, Peak showcase staging expenses and associated costs will total $211,200 annually.

2002 Learning, however, is at the heart of m.PLAY and we earmarked the largest budget allocation to the education of young musicians through the purchase or lease of instruments, school curriculum and mentoring programs and production workshops.

2003 We will also ensure that the full potential of m.PLAY is realized by convening and underwriting a founding symposium of music educators and professionals to shape our policies and set the agenda for success. Our annual commitment to learning is $241,800.

2004 CHUM will underwrite the cost of advocacy for m.PLAY's objective of stimulating interest in music as an art form, informing students of programs available through m.PLAY and educating parents and influencing decision-makers as to the long-term benefits of music training. We have committed $147,000 each year to that end.

2005 What we think we have in m.PLAY is an innovative, effective and productive initiative in support of young emerging Canadian musical talent. We now direct your attention to a brief video presentation that we believe captures the essence of m.PLAY - Calgary.

2006 In this tape, you will see how our proposed multilevel program will address real concerns about musical education in the community and will better nurture and develop young Canadian musical talent.

--- Video Presentation / Présentation vidéo

2007 MR. WATERS: Chairman and Members of the Commission.

2008 When we prepared this application for a new FM radio service in Calgary, we addressed the Commission's major criteria for awarding a new radio licence.

2009 What is in it for the listener, the community and the system?

2010 First, the listener. Calgary is an underserved radio market. Our research confirms that there is a desire in the market for a modern adult contemporary format. The Peak will provide an unduplicated radio service that will fill that need and bring more diversity to Calgary radio.

2011 Second, the community. We will introduce the Calgary City Awareness Initiative, the CHUM National Newscast to continue the CHUM tradition of bringing meaningful service to the communities we serve across Canada.

2012 And finally, what does the CHUM application bring to the system?

2013 m.PLAY: a multilevel program for the nurturing and development of the young Canadian musical artist. Music education is a fundamental element of learning. Language skills, math concepts, problem-solving and social skills come more easily to the musically trained child.

2014 We firmly believe that with m.PLAY we can start building a strong base for the development of the Canadian music industry. And if we are successful in Calgary, we will develop similar initiatives in all CHUM markets across Canada.

2015 Chairman and Members of the Commission, we respectfully ask for your approval of this application and we will be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

2016 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Waters. I am intrigued by your comments that "music education is a fundamental element of learning with language skills, match concept, problem-solving and social skills coming so much more easily to a musically trained child". On the Commission, we do have a musically trained individual. She has 14 years of musical training in her background. So she may have some questions for you later this afternoon.

2017 MR. WATERS: Is she going to perform?

2018 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, I don't think she is going to perform.

--- Laughter / Rires

2019 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, I propose that we take our lunch break at this time.

2020 MR. BURNSIDE: The hearing will reconvene at 1:30.

--- Upon recessing at 1155 / Suspension à 1155

--- Upon resuming at 1330 / Reprise à 1330

2021 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon and welcome back to the Calgary public hearing. We will reconvene now with questioning by Commissioner McKendry of the CHUM Limited application.

2022 Commissioner McKendry.

2023 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

2024 I wanted to ask you a couple of questions to start that come out of your opening comments to us before lunch. One that interested me a little bit was on page 7 where you referred to the CHUM National Newscast and that if you are successful with your application some Calgary stories will end up in the newscast.

2025 Tell me a little bit about the CHUM National Newscast. Is it on all of your stations? When is it on and how long is it and so on?

2026 MR. WATERS: Commissioner McKendry, the CHUM National News has been running, I think it started in the early seventies, and it is anchored from Toronto and Ottawa and every morning our news gatherers in Toronto call all of our stations across Canada and have them file reports. Then it is packaged up and anchored from Toronto and Ottawa and then fed out to our stations across the country. It runs Monday through Friday. It is about nine minutes in length.

2027 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: And it runs once a day?

2028 MR. WATERS: Yes, at noon.

2029 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: What time or does that vary from station to station?

2030 MR. WATERS: At noon.

2031 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: And to what extent do you think Calgary stories would be on the CHUM National Newscast? Is there any quota system in terms of the cities that you are operating in or does it depend on what is on the news that day?

2032 MR. WATERS: Ross, I know you are ready to speak about this. I would just say that every day we poll everyone and I think more often than not the people that are doing the gathering or the setting up of the newscast in Toronto will certainly be aware if there is a big story, for instance in Kingston, or in Winnipeg, and that we will need to know that we have got to go to that market and make sure we get a report from them.

2033 But there really isn't a quota, but we try to represent, get as good a representation, a cross-section of Canada each day that we prepare the newscast.

2034 MR. DAVIES: Commissioner McKendry, I happened to be talking to the News Director just last week about this subject and they try to make sure that each station gets something on there every day, unless there is a major story in one particular city that may change things. That is part of their mandate is to try and get representation from every one of our stations.


2036 I would like to talk for a few minutes about m.PLAY which you talked about this morning and of course in your application. I want to understand how m.PLAY is going to roll out because I notice on Schedule 4 of your application, I am going to quote:

"CHUM's belief in this project is so strong it is our intention to roll m.PLAY out in CHUM markets across Canada, starting in Vancouver and Calgary with these two radio licence applications." (As read)

2037 Could you talk a little bit about rolling it out nationally, for example if you are successful here and not successful in Vancouver or vice versa, will it roll out nationally and what are your plans there?

2038 MR. WATERS: I think I am going to let Duff Roman address this, but before I do what we want to do is establish m.PLAY in Calgary and get all the elements in place and have the program up and running. Then, once we have done that, it is our intention to go to each of our other markets and again, like we have done in Calgary, is really start a consultative process in those markets just to find out how we can best roll m.PLAY out into each city.

2039 I don't think it would be the same and maybe not to the same degree as it will begin in Calgary, but our intention would be to consult with the people, the educators like we have in Calgary and all of the markets that we are involved in to see just where we can take the initiative.

2040 But we feel very strongly about it and would like to be doing it in some form in all the markets in which we operate.

2041 Duff, maybe you would like to add to that.

2042 MR. ROMAN: Probably not a lot. I think Jim's covered it quite succinctly.

2043 We have spent a great deal of time in the Calgary market making sure that it was the constituency telling us what was needed in the education area, other than us imposing something and that has worked out very well.

2044 So from that standpoint we probably have elements of m.PLAY in many of the things we do in the CHUM markets we are in, but to the degree that we would roll it out would be very dependent on our experience in Calgary. We want to set the pattern here in Calgary.

2045 It is a complex initiative. It is dealing in areas that are at the very beginning of the whole Canadian talent music process, so there will be a fair bit of learning to do in Calgary. But we believe very strongly in it. We think there is a lot of good to be done through this type of initiative and I hope this is helpful to you.

2046 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: So if you are successful here you will roll out m.PLAY in all the markets that you have stations. Is that correct?

2047 MR. WATERS: Yes, sir.

2048 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: And if you are not successful here you won't?

2049 MR. WATERS: That's correct.

2050 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: What I took from your presentation this morning and in particular from the video that you played is that a key part of m.PLAY is its role in education and in schools. I wonder if you could tell me the situation here in Calgary in terms of cutbacks to education and so on in Calgary. What is the situation here in Calgary with respect to the cutbacks that have led you to come up with m.PLAY?

2051 MR. WATERS: Commissioner McKendry, I might ask Duff if he would like to begin and then get Susan and Brian.

2052 MR. ROMAN: Sure. I would be glad to.

2053 We have visited the market. We have had some experience through other of our CHUM divisions, areas of media and education that we do on the television side. We are aware that there is an ongoing series of cutbacks going on in many provincial governments.

2054 So when we came to Calgary and we got to know the music professionals, the educators, the activists, the people who are really on the front lines of keeping the curriculum for music alive and essentially demonstrating the worth of music, this led us to a meeting with Brian Farrell and Susan Farrell who are at the table behind us.

2055 Just so you know, both of them have Masters in Arts. Their business is Farrell and Farrell and it is all about music mentoring. I think they have also got some Internet development areas to their business as well, but Brian for one has been an artistic director, a musical director, a musical specialist in education at the high school level in Calgary.

2056 Susan is also an arts master. She is an expert in student learning and communications process. She is professionally involved with three initiatives, among many, arts and technology, integrating the arts and arts smarts. Her papers include "Music Makes Kids Smarter" and "Students As Musical Apprentices".

2057 With that background I think I will hand off to Brian, these are the people that are on the scene, the point people for m.PLAY here in Calgary. Brian.

2058 MR. FARRELL: Thank you.

2059 Mr. Commissioner, you asked about cutbacks in schools. I can speak personally that in one of the schools that I had the privilege to mentor with Paul Brandt that program is no longer functioning at the same capacity that it did at the time Paul Brandt participated.

2060 As well, in another particular program where I was fortunate enough to work with a number of students who are now in New York and in Toronto, that program does not function at the same capacity any more.

2061 It is a concern for us in education that we look at authentic learnings in the arts and bring that to the table and bring that to education, so that students gets the best kind of education that is available to them.

2062 Susan, maybe you could comment further.

2063 MS FARRELL: The cutbacks started in 1994 and the residual effect of that is that now we are having a hard time hiring music specialists, especially at the elementary level because they no longer saw it as a viable university program to enter into because there would be no jobs.

2064 The last couple of years I have been in a position to help schools hire those people and we have had to go far and wide and have not always been successful in filling the positions.

2065 I was the law and I left this position in 1998. I was the last fine arts specialists for the Calgary Board of Education. When we came to Calgary in 1980 we had eight full-time consultants and specialists working with teachers and kids in schools to make the liaison with the public and with the performing arts associations in Calgary to get that mentorship under way. Those people no longer exist. I was the last one and my overseeing was not just music, but all the fine arts, K to 12 for 98,000 students. That position also no longer exists.

2066 We have a hard time connecting with the community at large and finding particular and suitable mentors more specifically.

2067 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Is music education part of the school curriculum in the Calgary School Board? Do all schools have music education?

2068 MS FARRELL: All schools have it in some format. Often when there is no specialist in the building a classroom teacher who happens to play the piano or has a penchant for it will pick up that and go with it.

2069 If you teach it there is a required curriculum to teach and sometimes we are in jeopardy there because we are offering the curriculum but we don't have the expertise to actually teach it with all the integrity it requires.

2070 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: So if music is taught there is a required curriculum that is set out I presume by the board, the Calgary board?

2071 MS FARRELL: Yes, there is.

2072 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: How does what m.PLAY is proposing link to that curriculum? Perhaps you could explain the relationship between m.PLAY's education initiative and the curriculum set out by the board.

2073 MS FARRELL: The curriculum is not just about the technique and actually learning the technique of it. It is about the production and about being able to demonstrate what you know and can do. Probably that is the part that the kids really hook into most.

2074 m.PLAY is all about that. It is about giving kids the opportunity to demonstrate what they know and can do. So as well as with them -- as I said, with some of the people that are teaching, particularly in our elementary schools, they just simply do not have the expertise and having outside mentors come in and work alongside those teachers would be extremely beneficial.

2075 MR. FARRELL: I should say the full scope of m.PLAY involves a variety of musical styles. From the backgrounds we have had the performances were very successful. I can speak on behalf of Paul Brandt and Ashwin Sood who is another former student of both Susan and mine who is actually now working with Sarah McLachlan. Their background in music is very diverse.

2076 It wasn't just associated with any one style of music. It was pretty much open to singing ballads and country and pop and rock, musical theatre, jazz. As a result, their scope is so open. m.PLAY can offer that to our students. That's the positive thing about that. It is not so scoped in any one area or genre of music. It's a very positive program to open doors for students.

2077 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Would there need to be any change to the curriculum in order for m.PLAY to be implemented in the schools?

2078 MS FARRELL: No, there wouldn't be. It is quite wide. It is about production. It is about creativity and it is about knowledge and it is about technical skills.

2079 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: With respect to the school board is there any necessity to obtain their approval to implement m.PLAY in the school or has that been discussed with the school board?

2080 MR. FARRELL: I'm sorry, Duff.

2081 MR. ROMAN: I was simply going to say that whatever official status we might get with the school board are essentially part of the topics for discussion in the symposium and perhaps later I can tell you about that first symposium and what we plan to do with it.

2082 We are operating essentially at the grassroots level of the whole music system. Whether we have status directly with the school board or with the schools is sort of incidental to I think the process of doing good in this very important area.

2083 From our standpoint as media people, we have devoted extensive funding to advocacy for m.PLAY which deals directly with touching on the education and building awareness with politicians, regulators, parents, students, everyone who is part of the Canadian talent music equation.

2084 I hope that answers you somewhat, but it seems to me that from our standpoint the endorsement would probably come out of our high level symposium with the decision-makers.

2085 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: What I am trying to satisfy myself about is if your application was successful that you would be able to implement m.PLAY with the support of the school board. I notice in your application in Schedule 4, for example, you say:

"This is a comprehensive program that reaches into the classroom." (As read)

2086 It is on page 2 of 6 and on page 3 of 6 you say:

"m.PLAY Calgary will produce materials for use in schools." (As read)

2087 I would assume, and you can clarify this for me, that in order to reach into the classroom and produce materials for use in schools that you would need permission from the board. What I would like to know is whether or not you have had any discussions to this point with the board about that.

2088 MR. ROMAN: We haven't talked directly with the board but we talked with the organizations, such as the Coalition of Music Educators, and gotten their guidance with regard to the needs of the school system. But the short answer is that, at this point, we don't have the Board's approval because, essentially, until we have had the symposium we are not sure what it is we are going to be taking them, in that direct sense.

2089 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: So, just to make sure I understand the sequence of events, if you are successful, you would have the symposium?

2090 MR. ROMAN: Yes.

2091 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Out of the symposium you would produce what, produce a report that was specific about the materials, for example, that would be used in schools, and then what, a submission would be made based on the results of the symposium to the board?

2092 MR. ROMAN: That's correct. It would be a formal process.

2093 If you like, I would like to describe the symposium process somewhat.


2095 MR. ROMAN: Well, I think the first thing would be what we call the inaugural symposium. We don't know if it's going to be required on an annual basis but, essentially, the symposium is going to tell that. This follows, naturally, from the outreach and dialogue that we have already undertaken in developing the operational framework is what I would call it of m.PLAY. That's what we have in our submission to you and that's what we have in the budget section of that operational framework.

2096 Now, we do have the broad strokes in place. We have learned the value of consultation with a constituency to be served over the years. We know that through the organizations that we have set up, such as ArtsFact, BravoFact, VideoFact. I think this is a testament to the idea of the consultation process in setting up advisory committees and shaping and defining mandates for organizations such as that.

2097 We think the first symposium for m.PLAY will be the seminal event, sort of a gathering, as we say, of music educators, industry professionals, student representatives, artists, parents, and we will operate our -- or refine our operating mandate, at that time. We will shape the policies and the guidelines and, ultimately, determine the most effective use of the funds available to m.PLAY. We will then lay out the administrative blueprint, the composition role of the advisory committee and the necessary oversight of CHUM through The Peak, the principal funding partner. Our music educator and industry partners will help determine the need for subsequent symposiums, annual or otherwise. And, as we have already confirmed, the remaining funds will be adding to the educational budget of youth training, instruments and so forth if we decide not to have an annual symposium. The money will stay in the system.

2098 MS FARRELL: Excuse me, Mr. Commissioner, I would like to add to that.

2099 In terms of musical instruments and sheet music and all those kinds of things, we have parents in our schools who are fundraising for desks and textbooks, who are running casinos and bingos to make sure that they have that in the schools. So there remains very little time in their precious life to start fundraising for musical instruments, the larger things like the drum sets, the microphones, the amplifiers, those things that add media to our classrooms, and digital instruments type of technology. That lack of funding, that's not even in the picture. And with parents being frazzled and constantly fundraising, schools are looking for alternate sources of funding. They apply to the Lottery Board; they apply to a lot of foundations and commissions. It's, unfortunately, very fragmented and there's no one that's pulling it all together. So there could be seven schools -- money for seven schools and one proposal; however we are finding 40 to 50 applying and only seven get it.

2100 MR. FARRELL: School boards listen to parents.

2101 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: I'm right -- perhaps I should have asked you this earlier -- in assuming that you would need the permission -- or perhaps I did -- the permission of the board to go ahead with this program in the schools?

2102 MS FARRELL: Schools have to get permission to fund raise, to get the licence for the bingo and all of those kinds of things. It's a question of talking to Community Relations and getting their stamp of approval so that the money comes from a credible source and they don't lock themselves into legal issues where it could be a problem.

2103 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: But this is more, as I understand it, than just raising funds. You are going to produce materials for use in the schools. And I would assume those materials would have to be approved by the board?

2104 MR. ROMAN: I will answer that.

2105 Yes, the materials would have to be vetted. We have had experience with a media literacy initiative that CHUM Television has produced, which was done, essentially, as a good thing to do, in terms of corporate responsibility, and then it is made available and vetted by the boards and constituencies involved. So, with our experience in that area, through the consultation process, we might be told what is a more pressing need or a more dire circumstance. And, again, as I say, that's part of the symposium and determining just what and how that process would be most effectively instituted.

2106 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Coming out of the symposium, is it possible that funds could be reduced or redirected to some other purpose than is outlined in here, or some other programs or undertakings that are underlined in here, as a result of what you learn in the symposium?

2107 MR. ROMAN: Well, the envelope of $4.2 million for the seven-year term of licence is inviolable, and that means that, from our standpoint, there is flexibility within the components, at the direction of the symposium. But these uses of that fund would have to be eligible as CTD initiatives under the CRTC's guidelines.

2108 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Do you have a Plan B? What if the board, for whatever reason, decided that it didn't want to participate in m.PLAY? What would your Plan B be?

2109 MR. ROMAN: Well, we just tried to indicate that this operates, essentially, for the music community, the young Canadian Calgarian music novice.

2110 Working with the school board is one element. Essentially, we work through the grassroots of the music industry, we work through music mentors and educators who are essentially the music teachers, the people who deal with students on the Saturdays and evenings when they teach music lessons. We have a lot of promotional endeavours on behalf of events and learning workshops, mentoring with artists in clubs and protege systems. None of these operate within the school board.

2111 Susan has something to add here.

2112 MS FARRELL: A school board will welcome the money with open arms. It's with great regret that things have gone the way they have gone and they have done their best to sustain what they could with the funds they have, because we do have envelopes that come from the province that are specifically earmarked; and so, the money would be welcome with open arms.

2113 MR. FARRELL: And there are successful arms who want to give back, they want to give back to their heritage and they want to see it happen here in Calgary again.

2114 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: This is the point where I should ask Commissioner Langford if there's some sort of quote about the best laid plans of -- and so on and so on.

--- Laughter / Rires

2115 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: All I'm trying to do is understand is if that component that does require the board approval, for whatever reason, doesn't materialize. Am I to take it that you would redirect that funding into the other initiatives that you have described that really don't have anything to do directly with --

2116 MR. ROMAN: Yes, that's absolutely right. It's within the system. I would also add that this is a Calgary district initiative. That $4.2 million is virtually all to be spent in the Calgary district area, on valid CTD initiatives.

2117 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Just let me ask you a bit about the material that m.PLAY will produce for use in the schools.

2118 Who is going to produce it and what would CHUM's role be in the production of those materials?

2119 MR. ROMAN: Essentially, we are the funding partner and it is our belief that the structure that comes out of the symposium will produce the proper hands-off arm's-length organization to oversee such things as the production of materials, any of the interaction that we have with the school boards that require any kind of official sanction. But, other than that, most of these initiatives will not require the sanction or blessing of the school board; they will answer to the organizing committee that has been developed out of the symposium. So whatever materials might have to go into the school that would obviously be a liaison, we wouldn't produce anything that they didn't want to use or didn't think was useful.

2120 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: But CHUM wouldn't -- just to make sure I understand, your role is to fund the production of the materials not to prepare the production; that would be --

2121 MR. ROMAN: Absolutely.

2122 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  -- done by parties that will be identified in the symposium?

2123 MR. ROMAN: That is correct.


2125 The other thing I noticed in your application was -- and I'm taking this from page 4 of Schedule 4 -- where you say m.PLAY Calgary will concentrate its efforts on music education for young people from pre-school through high school.

2126 My first reaction was that that was a terrifically broad group of people, in terms of age and knowledge and so on.

2127 I guess what I would like you to do is to satisfy me that the resources you have here in front of us are sufficient to cover that very broad spectrum of education.

2128 MR. ROMAN: Well, we are not trying to become the Department of Education.

--- Laughter / Rires

2129 MR. ROMAN: I just want, Commissioner McKendry, that you understand us on that.

2130 The point and thrust of m.PLAY is that it's for the beginning artist, the young person just taking an interest in music, the young person just starting out with lessons, just starting to determine a direction, just starting to emulate artists that they idolize. Our work, essentially, will cover that demographic spectrum but, essentially, it's not necessarily true that every young person is going to want to study music. We will do the best we can. But what we are saying is that a lot of it is focused on young musicians who are still in school, but they don't have to be reached through the school system. Our outreach, our publicity materials, the things that we will do on the radio station will all talk about m.PLAY; they will be part of the advocacy. We plan to ensure that there is good information kits and materials available that the people in that age group will know about m.PLAY and can make up their minds about it.

2131 Susan, would you like to add to that?

2132 MS FARRELL: If I could just comment on the schools.

2133 Looking at just the budget portion for schools and impacting schools is about $180,000. Times seven years, that would end up resulting in about $4,500 to $5,000 per school, at some time over the course of seven years, which is a significant impact. Some schools' budget for music ranges between $250 and $500. So, significant in that way.

2134 MR. FARRELL: And from a high school perspective, it's really essential that these students are engaged in a variety of styles of music, like I said earlier, because we know, by evidence, that some of the most successful musicians have such a diversity of background. Sarah McLachlan has a classical background. And it's important that like so many kids who have had success in high school programs we know have had background and you know are successful today in opera, alternative musical theatre, country, all that kind of stuff, but they started in their roots in our school systems where they have been exposed to a variety of things like festivals and concerts and various workshops. But m.PLAY can really augment that.

2135 MR. WATERS: Just to add one point. When we were doing the roundtable discussion, you might remember Dr. Ian Winchester made a very interesting comment, he said that there's a great spirit -- and I think you have heard that from some of the other applicants -- there's a great spirit among the people in Calgary, and it was his feeling that once other corporations saw CHUM's involvement in an initiative like this, he felt that others would jump on to help out the cause almost immediately. So we are kind of hopeful that that's what will happen and m.PLAY can become even bigger than what we have proposed in here.

2136 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: One of the things that struck me on the tape, and your comment about the forum on the tape reminds me of it, I think one of the participants said music teachers are no longer there and I took that to mean, on the face of it, that there are no more music teachers in schools.

2137 Now, I expect that's not quite the case, but can you just expand on that for me because I suppose it would be an issue if, in fact, there were no music teachers in the schools and you were going to ship over a bunch of tubas.

--- Laughter / Rires

2138 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: So, what is the situation in Calgary schools, with respect to music teachers?

2139 MS FARRELL: Most junior highs have a music teacher. Most of them have one. Sometimes the person works full time, sometimes not. Because we have been cut back not just in funding for the programming but also in terms of staffing, so there are many areas to cover; so they are not always able to teach full-time music.

2140 Senior high schools tend to have populations of between 1800 and 2200 students and in a situation like that, you might have two, possibly three, music teachers.

2141 The feeding program for that in the elementary is what I was referring to earlier in that we don't have the professionals there. The ones that we did have had to cover so many schools and so many children that the burnout rate was very, very high and they have decided that it's much easier to go back to the classroom and just teach your 30 to 35 kids, as opposed to staying specifically in music. So that's wherein the major problem lies in the younger years and, unfortunately, that's when the brain is the most malleable and the most receptive to what music can do for your intelligence and for your learning.

2142 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: So, in the elementary schools -- I come from Ontario and, in Ontario, it would be Grades 1 to 6 and possibly Grades 7 and 8 -- there are no music teachers?

2143 MS FARRELL: Probably one in seven schools would have a music specialist. The rest would be taught by somebody who has a penchant for it and an avocation for it, or plays the piano, or something like that.

2144 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: And in those other schools, the other six, though it is being taught, it is not being taught at all in some schools.

2145 MS FARRELL: Yes. It's not being taught at all in some schools.

2146 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: In what percentage of elementary schools would there be no music taught at all in Calgary?

2147 MS FARRELL: Calgary Public has 151 elementary schools. Probably one-seventh of them would have a music specialist. I would guess at least one third of them have no music program.

2148 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: I'm sorry? One-third have...?

2149 MS FARRELL: At least one-third would have no music program.

2150 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: You are proposing in m.PLAY -- perhaps this is something the symposium is going to deal with. I was going to ask you how you would address the situation in schools where there are no music teachers.

2151 MR. ROMAN: Sure. I would like to add.

2152 I think we are answering a call for help that has come out of our visits and our dialogue in Calgary. As we worked our way through the issue and learned more about it, we have discovered that there is really a crisis with regard to what is considered a frill course or not a frill. One of those is, in some cases, the music course. In some schools it is athletics.

2153 What we have determined is that if we address the sort of four major components of m.PLAY, the performance, learning, advocacy, and youth, we will make a great start in terms of leading the way, in terms of hopefully inspiring other corporate patrons to get involved and to address this issue, but it might be useful for you to know where we are coming from in a more holistic sense in terms of our CTD initiatives.

2154 We have been involved at other levels of the music system, going back for years with FACTOR, with the MAPLE music system. We have in place some really good initiatives. Our association, the CAB, is going to put another initiative in place called the Starmaker's Fund. All of these presuppose a certain level of accomplishment. These are artists who already have recording careers. These are artists who have CDs or have the ability to go into a recording studio, and we felt that that is being very well served.

2155 You have heard the kinds of commitments that are being made to FACTOR, for instance, even at this hearing, and you are obviously aware of the significant benefits package in which 3 per cent of transactions is going over to that Starmaker's Fund. But what is it that you are going to take to the next level? Where are the musicians going to come from that you are going to groom and complete and promote and tour and merchandise and market and take to this great international celebrity status?

2156 It all starts with some kid with a guitar not going out to play ball but practising his scales or something. This is where we felt we could make the most impact. It goes across all genre of music. There is no limitations on classical or jazz or urban or wide appeal, contemporary mainstream music.

2157 That is what we got out of these early dialogues: you have to start at this end CHUM. You have to start at the end of getting kids interested in even considering music as a vocation, let alone a hobby or an advocation. That is what really hit us on this.

2158 So, as I say, this initiative, in a sense, came from those kinds of early discussions and so we crafted what we called the broad strokes. What isn't the broad strokes is the financial commitment. That we stand behind, that we have made. What we want to do is to make sure that no pennies are wasted in meaningless initiatives or things that won't ultimately fertilize and build the feeder system to the Canadian musical star system. No one has actually gone after this area in as comprehensive a way.

2159 The pay off won't be next year. The pay off is going to take its time to work its way through the system. But most endeavours have to have some kind of a training program or a farm system in athletics. There are farm teams where those young athletes, ballplayers, are learning their craft, learning their sport, hopefully to get to the big leagues. Well, we are suggesting with this submission that we are the farm team. We are going to find people that have got an interest in music and give them that little nudge to not give up on it, not stop practising, not stop learning that musical craft. There is a way of maybe buying you the instruments.

2160 As Susan mentioned, 252 schools would benefit at $5,000 per school for $180,000 annual equipment initiative alone. That is very meaningful. We think that is the kind of thing that can make an impact.

2161 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Would you expect any corporate recognition in the schools of your donations of instruments and so on?

2162 MR. ROMAN: It wouldn't be an expectation. You know, from our standpoint, if you do good work, you will get whatever recognition is due you. But that kind of string is not attached to it.

2163 MR. FARRELL: I can add to that.

2164 In Calgary, the corporate community is incredibly supportive of successful things like this, and they are incredibly supportive of youth. We saw in 1988 the way the Calgarians supported the Olympics. It was from the grassroots up, and corporate Calgary was a major part of that as well. But you could see Calgary on the face of the 1988 Olympics.

2165 It is important that we know that -- there are certain students too that have come and been very, very successful in their endeavours. A student, just from one of the schools in Calgary, on the 31st of August, opened for Neil Young in Toronto. But these students need a venue in their own town. They need recording possibilities. They need money to support them, to get out there and get their -- they need tools to get their talents across because there is enormous talent in this city.

2166 We know through past experiences when people are funded, with the expertise behind them, amazing things happen and, to answer your question again, corporate Calgary will be there.

2167 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: My question really was: To what extent would CHUM expect that there would be formal corporate recognition of CHUM in the schools with, for example, respect to equipment or musical instrument donations? The answer, I took, was that there is no --

2168 MR. WATERS: That is not our expectation at all.

2169 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: If you get some recognition, that's great, but it's not going to require a plaque --

2170 MR. WATERS: That is not our expectation.

2171 In fact, what would be wonderful is that -- to hear Susan talk about the numbers, there are number of schools that don't have any music program -- just maybe if this initiative gets off the ground the way that we hope it will, that maybe those schools that don't currently have music will have music if they get some instruments, and the interest in music is just raised in those schools which don't have a program at all now. Maybe that will happen too, and that will be wonderful.

2172 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: But presumably you would have to get a teacher first. One-third of schools don't have a music teacher.

2173 MR. WATERS: But maybe there is somebody there, as Susan said, that likes to play the piano, and maybe if they saw some of this kind of assistance they might get more interested in teaching music. We can hope for that.


2175 MS FARRELL: Part of the reason that they don't have the teacher is because they are having to make hard decisions about: should we offer French, should we offer resource or learning discrepancy support, or should we offer music? Given the opportunity to have a budget for the program would certainly help them to look for staff, staffing.

2176 Also, in the community in Calgary there are a lot of places, a lot of people who have picked up the ball, tried to pick it up on the outside periphery. So there are people running individual programming outside the school in our community who could come in during the day and facilitate, make that budget go.

2177 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: One of the things I am taking from this is that the symposium is really a key element of what you are proposing, because out of that symposium what is possible to do and what will be proposed to the school board and so on will flow. Have I got that right?

2178 MR. ROMAN: Absolutely. There is an area of comfort when you are contributing to an ongoing organization like Music Action or FACTOR or you are doing a CD compilation or you are doing a music battle of the bands. This is much more complex to us. We don't pretend to be education experts. That's why we are going to those who are, and the stakeholders in the music community of Calgary to get their advice, to get their direction, and to tell us how best to make the most effective use of the funds.

2179 MR. SKI: Commissioner McKendry, I would say to you, when we started talking with music educators, the symposium actually came out of those discussions because when we started developing our plans and talking about what we wanted to do, many of them said, "I would like to participate in that. I would like to be part of that. I have this that I contribute or that that I can contribute to the plan." So out of those discussions we thought what better way to develop it even further but to bring these people into a symposium. But the idea for the symposium came out of initial discussions with these music educators.


2181 The reason I am taking some time with this is because it is important for us to understand the nature and the extent of your talent development initiative because it is an important aspect of deciding who will get the licence here in Calgary. The sense I am being left with here is that you are commited to the amount of money you have shown for music education in Calgary. Exactly what form that education will take and what direction it will take or directions is yet to be determined pending the symposium.

2182 Have I summed that up fairly?

2183 MR. WATERS: Yes, I think you have, Commissioner.

2184 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: I am just looking now at page 5 of 6 of Schedule 4 of your application where you do set out a detailed breakdown of the expenditure elements of m.PLAY. I am just looking at the amount of money set aside for the symposium. As far as I can tell, there are four elements there: $2,400 for the venue; $14,400 for the speakers; $6,000 for food and supplies; and, $1,800 for the co-ordinator. I guess I'm glad I read "supplies". It sounded like they were going to eat very well there for a moment at $6,000.

2185 That total I guess for the symposium of about, what, $25,000, approximately, I haven't added it up --

2186 MR. ROMAN: Yes, twenty-four six.

2187 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  -- twenty- four six, given the significance and the importance of this symposium, I guess my intuition says that is a relatively small budget given what you expect to come out of it, so I would like you to comment on how you develop that budget, how long you think the symposium is going to take, what kind of report is going to come out of it, is it going to be a major report, who is going to write the report, and so on.

2188 MR. ROMAN: I will share this with Paul who has been here at Western Canada our point person on this.

2189 From our standpoint, again, as I mentioned, there is flexibility within these components. We have allocated $24,600. Now, remember, the symposium speakers may indeed be professionals that have speaking fees, but what we have discovered in our early outreach here in Calgary is that so many people want to be part of this. They see this as the first sort of meaningful private initiative that addresses their bailiwick, and that is music education. So I think there will be a great sense of volunteerism.

2190 But having said that, we are not trying to do this on the cheap. This is a first cut at it. We will do whatever it takes to have a successful symposium. We have never run one before but we are told by the people that we have been talking to that it is a must if you are going to do it in an organized and efficient way, so that we have taken our cue from them.

2191 Paul.

2192 MR. WATERS: Maybe I will just intercept Paul here for a second.

2193 I think that it is important for us to say that I think we consider the funds that we have allotted here to be fluid. In other words, we can move -- you are quite right, $24,600 isn't enough to run the symposium. If it cost $50,000, we would probably just move the money from somewhere else in the program. I think that we have set it up so that at least the funds are fluid to move back and forth. I think getting it off the ground to begin with, and the symposium is such a critical part of that, I mean whatever is necessary to make it successful, we would allot the funds to that. I think that is very safe to say.

2194 MR. SKI: Also, I think we should mention that we will have the initial symposium. Whether there will be a need for an additional symposium in the second year or third year, we don't know that at this particular point in time. So, as Jim said, those funds are fluid so we might put more money into the first year for the symposium. In the second year, it may be just to develop things a little further. We may not need to have as large a symposium as we had from the very beginning.

2195 Just to clarify the food and supplies issue, one part of it is food, the other is audio/visual supplies and clerical, things of that nature.

2196 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: In terms of research that will input into the report coming from the symposium and be the basis of the approach to the school board and so on, I take it that the only research will be what the symposium speakers say -- is this a one-day symposium or longer? -- in any event, whatever they say during the course of the symposium.

2197 I guess, a secondary question, how long is the symposium? Is it one day or half a day or two days?

2198 MR. ROMAN: Probably one or two days is the way we would see this.

2199 I also think that what will come out of the symposium is getting the tools, whether it is research or other professional assistance, to develop the program properly. I think the symposium will actually make recommendations. Certainly, they will talk to us about the kind of administration that will be required, who should be the operating director, the person that makes this all happen. Those are the kinds of things that will come out of the symposium.

2200 So on that standpoint, we don't have a lot of preconceptions. We are providing the funding and the resources, but we want the experts to tell us how best to accomplish this.

2201 MR. SKI: Also, Commissioner McKendry, it's not just individuals and the speakers who will be involved here. There is also the various music education coalitions across the country who will participate and they have materials and they have studied various elements of music education and they will bring that information to the symposium. Also members of the International Society of Music Educators who -- we have talked to a number of people with the society, and they have also materials that they can bring to the symposium.

2202 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Who will write the report?

2203 MR. ROMAN: Well, I assume that when our steering committee puts together the symposium that we will probably have to look at professional report writers. I mean, that's the kind of dialogue that is going to come out of this. The report would have to have the credibility and the blessing of the symposium partners, so from that standpoint I would certainly make sure that the report was credible and that whatever it takes would get done.

2204 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: So the budget for that then, what I am hearing -- because you did say that you would take money from some of the other items that are here to fund --

2205 MR. ROMAN: Or successive years. What we said is that it may not be an annual symposium. That component itself is just around $170,000 for seven years, at 24-6 per year. So from that standpoint, it can go laterally or it can go horizontally.

2206 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Maybe I should ask you a question about the time frame here. If you are successful with your application here -- and perhaps this is in here and I have missed it -- when will the symposium take place?

2207 MR. ROMAN: Well, I think we are going to be out of the starting gate pretty fast with regard to an authorization or approval from the Commission. We will move very quickly on it. It is the centrepiece of our planning. So in many ways that has to happen, but certainly there are other areas of m.PLAY that are going to move even more rapidly.

2208 If you look at the fifth page of Schedule 4, where you see what we sort of call "above the line items, peak performances and the ultimate challenges", those are the only areas of m.PLAY that relate to the kind of music we are going to play on The Peak so that there immediately the planning for the two semi-annual peak performances would begin, that process would move forward very quickly. We would begin the publicity process with regard to getting the word out, the outreach to the musicians, all the associations, the organizations that are central to making this a successful undertaking.

2209 So a lot of details would begin right off the bat, but the symposium, that is going to require very quick and very intensive planning, but it won't really essentially get off the ground until we know that we have an m.PLAY initiative to inaugurate.

2210 MR. WATERS: Commissioner McKendry, I think once we have received -- if we receive approval from the Commission to proceed with this licence, I think while we are going forward with the plans to actually build the radio station, locate it, get the equipment, hire the people, I think separately from that we could be working on the m.PLAY initiative and planning ahead for the symposium. As long as we know that we have the licence, I think we can put the procedure in place immediately, not necessarily wait until the station is on the air, act right away.

2211 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: So one you had the licence you would be looking at what? Three to six months, or something like that, to have your symposium planned, then a report would be prepared which would take some more time, and I guess you would go through a consultive process with the people that were part of the symposium to ultimately get a final report -- I don't know, another three months. And then what? You would take it to the School Board?

2212 MR. WATERS: Well, Susan, you might be able to help me with that one. I would think at that point, once the head of symposium had the report done then taking it to the School Board, yes, I think that sounds right.

2213 MS FARRELL: Calgary energy is such that when something like this rolls out everybody gets really excited. It doesn't take very long for us to get an initiative like this off the ground and into the schools. We have done it before in as little as eight months.

2214 I am not sure how long an application takes to arrive, but if we had a chance to get started in the spring we could have them in the schools by September.

2215 Also, there are a number of issues in m.PLAY that are outside of the school district, that match kids up with mentors outside of school. So those need to be put in place as well. Mentors need to be contacted and found to be viable and to understand how the mentorship process works, so that we have to run concurrently as well as getting started to get all those things lined up as well.


2217 We focused on the symposium and the role of schools, and so on. I would just like to ask you some questions about other elements of m.PLAY because it is, as I understand it, more than your involvement with the schools.

2218 On page 4 of the same schedule, with respect to the "Y for youth statement", you say that the station will, and I am going to quote:

"... sponsor an annual competition where different schools and regions will have their performances judged by an expert panel with significant cash awards going to the finalist to support music programs in their schools". (As read)

2219 Just tell us a little bit about the competition. Will the finalists be schools, individuals schools or individual students, and I suppose, how will you ensure or satisfy yourself that the cash award actually ends up supporting music in the winning school?

2220 MR. ROMAN: Well, that will be very clearly spelled out at the beginning, that the award goes to the school from which the student comes, but it is individuals that are involved in this.

2221 I want to make something clear. In this sort of growing process of developing the m.PLAY initiative, the more we talked to the educators and professionals in music education, we learned that competition should take more the form of evaluation, should take more the form of mentoring and raising students to the next level.

2222 That is something that Susan and Brian can talk about, but our plan really is to work closely with the students and to have an evaluation panel that isn't so much pitting one student against another in that direct competitive sense, but this has evolved in the sense of what competition should actually be when m.PLAY is working and functioning and it's more self-awareness, self-evaluation and experts helping students come to the next level.

2223 So from that point, we hope that we are not sort of regressing to something that is essentially like a battle of the bands. That isn't what we want to do with this. We want to take students to the next level in their music education.

2224 MS FARRELL: And to be proactive. We know that a performance workshop is a really positive environment for students to succeed in. A performance workshop combines elements in performance for an audience in a workshop setting.

2225 So for example, there is the same standard of excellence and expert adjudication as in festivals at a performance workshop. There is the same kind of performance preparation required for say the music examination. There is the same kind of synergy of audience interaction in a performance workshop as there is in a concert setting. As well, there is the wonderful interaction of mentorship with the experts and with the student in this workshop setting, just as there is going to be in this performance workshop.

2226 So it doesn't have to be competitive necessarily. It just has to be based on good learning and based on the student at the centre.

2227 MR. ROMAN: If I could add to that, Commissioner McKendry.

2228 Ultimately when this plays itself out, the result of this will take place in the ultimate challenge where we will have a district showcase of the best young performing talent and that will come from two parts of our m.PLAY components.

2229 First, there is the bimonthly concert series -- and this is where we are going to be working with young artists in protege workshops working with professional musicians in jam sessions, clubs and cafe matinees. They are going to be recorded for later analysis, but we will be drawing on that particular component to feed into the entry system with regard to the competition.

2230 The second thing is the more structured academic environment, which is the next part of our performance component. This is where we work with students at music academies and we will provide an incentive for participation by providing prizes for the school themselves and not the individuals.

2231 What we want to do to take them to the next level is to have evaluation panels, sort of like the various grades in a music course. That will encourage development of musical skills. We will develop their appetite for more training, for more music, and they will learn to perform in a public venue. They will learn that they have to do the work if they are going to get the recognition.

2232 From that standpoint, we are sort of not trying to make it as direct a competition. I think Susan very clearly explained that really it's working with them and recognizing the improvement and development that they have undertaken and then giving their school a prize and just saying that they have accomplished a certain amount of musical growth.

2233 MS FARRELL: Part of their understanding is to understand what the levels of excellence are, what excellence is about and how you get excellence in whatever genre you are talking about or performing in.

2234 It will be really interesting to see children understanding that so that they can -- and teenagers understand that -- help each other and decide amongst each other even who should be going on into the major competitions, who is ready to go on into the major competitions, who still needs what kind of work. The ultimate is for students and children to be setting their goals and understanding where the standards are and moving themselves along instead of always waiting to be told what they have to do next.

2235 Part of the role of mentorship is taking those master skills and assigning them to the novice and helping them to mock around with them and take some risks and take some chances, but also to take the understandings that you have generated and to help yourself move on.

2236 And so the synergy that can be created instead of a "I am better than you" kind of a scenario is that working together and moving the whole thing on can generate some pretty exciting performances and opportunities.

2237 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: How will verify that the prizes the schools receive are used for music programs?

2238 MR. ROMAN: I think we could make it conditional -- I mean that the school receive the prize. I am not sure right now what the exact entry form is gong to look like, but I don't think that is a major issue for us in terms of making sure that whatever prize, whether it's financial or some other form of recognition, that it gets to the schools. We will develop something that will make sure that that works.

2239 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: The reason I ask is you say that the prizes will go to support music programs in schools. I guess we would want to be satisfied that you had some control measure in place to ensure that, in fact, the money which is part of your talent development initiative does go to music programs.

2240 I am taking it from your answer there would be a written agreement between yourselves and the school that would say that, require that.

2241 MR. WATERS: Yes, yes.

2242 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: On page 5 of Schedule 4, the national competition expense of $15,000. What is the national competition? Is this as a result of rolling out the m.PLAY across the country and bringing together the winners from the various cities where you have stations or is it something else?

2243 MR. ROMAN: In and of itself, that is what it would be. The way we have addressed it is we hope it will evolve into a national competition starting with let's say m.PLAY Calgary. That would be a regional competition and this would provide the sort of ultimate performance destination for the winning participants.

2244 Our initial plan calls for a regional showcase drawing on these young performers and for mentoring workshops and from these protege artist series. Now, they will work in all genres. We are not restricting them in terms of this ultimate showcase to any kind of genres. It doesn't necessarily reflect on our program format. It will cover classical jazz, all the pop music idioms.

2245 Under the guidance of our music teaching and industry professional partners, we will structure a format that addresses more the self-realization, as we mentioned, than competition. That's our plan.

2246 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Going down to the play advocacy section of page 5, printing expenses: $90,000 which is 15 per cent of the total cost of m.PLAY. What are you printing? I know, it's printed materials, given the line above it, but talk a little bit about what you are printing and who it is for, and so on.

2247 MR. ROMAN: This is a component that we worked through with Paul. I think we will start with Paul and then we will have Susan talk to us in terms of the usefulness and the direction of those materials.

2248 MR. SKI: When we investigated the advocacy portion of our application and particularly these printed materials and the video production materials, these were discussions we initially had I think in particular with the various coalitions for music education across the country.

2249 They have started to develop this kind of material in the schools, but they are all very privately funded. So they don't really have the funds to produce the material, so we will be coupling what we have, the information that we have with them.

2250 Susan, you may want to elaborate on that.

2251 MS FARRELL: Usually the first line of attack in terms of advocacy is an awareness and having people understand what m.PLAY is all about and what it can do for kids and how they can tap into it, understanding the brain research and the opportunities behind it and what it can do. So that is usually the first line.

2252 The second and subsequent waves of advocacy are around the doing and the promoting of the doing. So perhaps a school has a need for printed material in terms of musical scores, outfitting a choir right now with one piece of music. Say you have got 50 kids in the choir, it costs over $100 plus one jazz band score might cost you about $100, one concert band score might cost you about $130, $140.

2253 If something like that showed up with information about m.PLAY and courtesy of m.PLAY, it is not only encouraging the performance and encouraging what m.PLAY is trying to promote in terms of music education, but it is also advocacy for that program.

2254 Ultimately, the advocacy has to mature. It can't remain the same.

2255 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: So the printing expense is for brochures about m.PLAY to ensure that the educational community understands what m.PLAY is about?

2256 MS FARRELL: Perhaps initially, yes. We have to create that awareness first.

2257 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: And it would also include printing scores?

2258 MS FARRELL: Those need to be purchased.

2259 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: So the scores then are a part of the printing budget. Is that what I understand?

2260 MS FARRELL: Yes.

2261 MR. ROMAN: Well, not necessarily, in that when we talk about advocacy and this is an idea that has evolved from discussion with Brian and that is as part of advocacy they say it would be really important to have the stamp of m.PLAY on things such as musical scores donated by m.PLAY or contributed to m.PLAY. We said, yes, that's a great idea because that's advocacy -- in other words, someone getting a musical score that they didn't have to buy or made available to them at a reduced price, supplied by m.PLAY is really grassroots hands on advocacy.

2262 But our initial plan with regard to the printing was really getting the word out. We use I think printing as a euphemism for communications. From that standpoint it, for instance, the symposium says that you should have a purpose specific interactive Web site, it is possible for the Web site development to come out of the printing area.

2263 So if you look at printing as communication, I think you get sort of a better feel for the scope of how we will use those cash allotments with regard to advocacy for m.PLAY.

2264 MR. SKI: I think too when we say advocacy we are also talking in a more global sense of the importance of music education. This is what as I say the people from the various coalitions tell us, that there are a number of people, a number of factions who don't understand or know how important music education is. I think that is part of the advocacy project.

2265 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: The equipment grants of $180,000 which are 30 per cent of the total costs, tell me about the eligibility criteria for a school to get an equipment grant.

2266 MR. ROMAN: I hate to keep bringing up the symposium, but I think as long as you know their hearts are in the right place we want to make instruments available to music students. That is essentially where that comes from in terms of the specifics of the criteria.

2267 We don't have that developed at this point. We just have the budget to make it possible.

2268 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: I assume, and correct me if I am wrong, that in terms of ensuring that the grants are actually used to purchase equipment your control mechanism here would again be the agreement between the school and CHUM?

2269 MR. ROMAN: That's true, but we have to appreciate that there isn't an operational working framework in place here that would cover such things.

2270 Susan.

2271 MS FARRELL: My last position was assistant principal in an elementary school. What that means is I am responsible for the budget. When a grant comes in, I am responsible for making it a line item on the budget and responding to the person who gave us the grant or wherever the money came from and justifying how that money was spent.

2272 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Let me ask you another question about Canadian Talent Development that isn't related to m.PLAY. You apparently decided not to adopt the CAB/CTD plan, despite your $20,000 FACTOR contribution which would qualify as an eligible third party expense under the plan. I am interested to know why you decided not to join the CAB/CTD plan.

2273 MR. ROMAN: Well, I believe that the FACTOR allocation is the CAB/CTD plan. It's $8,000 for a market the size of Calgary. We have taken that up to $20,000 per year.

2274 The CAB does have another initiative called the Starmaker Fund which flows from the benefit side of acquisitions, but that FACTOR contribution is the CAB/CTD contribution.


2276 I am going to go back to m.PLAY for a final question. Again it relates to page 5 of Schedule 4 where we see quite a detailed break down of the various components of the program.

2277 In terms of co-ordinating all of this, in here there are various co-ordinators and so on, but in terms of co-ordinating the whole m.PLAY initiative in Calgary, and I suppose later on if you are successful nationally, but let's just talk about Calgary. What exactly will CHUM's role be in co-ordinating the m.PLAY program? Will you designate a staff person to do this? How are you going to do it?

2278 MR. ROMAN: Well, we plan to do all of the administration through a third party in terms of what evolves from the symposium with regard to the framework to administrate m.PLAY. We are talking about administrating all of the components and that would be third party driven.

2279 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: And is that the budget for the third party part of the $600,000?

2280 MR. ROMAN: If you go through the budget page you will see that in certain of these components there is a line item for things such as workshop co-ordinator and other areas such as judging. There is concert performance staffing. There are all sorts of administrative costs that would be rolled up into that area of administration. Some of it will be people who are consultants who are specific to a kind of project, someone who would come in and handle that project for us, say it's the ultimate challenge. Others will be more administrative.

2281 What we have to have ultimately is a paid third person position answering to the advisory committee that comes out of the symposium and being funded on an arm's length basis by the CHUM station in Calgary.

2282 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: And that funding is part of the budget, it's allocated over a variety of --

2283 MR. ROMAN: That's right.


2285 Let's leave the talent development area and let me ask you a couple of questions about your format. Your research and the chart on your easel indicates that, to use your words, there is a format hole in Calgary and that no other station or no station in Calgary currently operates directly in the format that you are proposing.

2286 Now, I think in the written material, and I am not sure about what is on the easel, that CJAY-FM and CKIK-FM are the closest matches to your proposed format and I suppose that's reflected in fact on the easel.

2287 With respect to the playlist, how much overlap would there be between the playlist for your proposed station and the playlist for CJAY and CKIK? Would there be a lot of overlap?

2288 MR. DAVIES: Commissioner McKendry, I think there would be, if you examine each radio station and did you say CKIK and CJAY?


2290 MR. DAVIES: In the case of CJAY this is a station and the amount of duplication, there would be some duplication. It would be minimal. The fundamental difference between our station and their station is that our station is much more current based and nineties based and their station is both nineties, eighties and seventies. They are a classic rock station that plays some new rock.

2291 But because of that there will be some artist duplication, but there may not be song duplication. I think you have to look at that carefully because their station is much harder and more male driven. They are a station that their male composition is close to 70 per cent and that's a significant difference, but there would be some duplication of their music.

2292 In CKIK's case, this is a radio station that is more teen oriented, being a top 40 CHR radio station. That's why you see it on the lower side on the right there. Their targeting would be -- their music would be more Pop driven, more Urban and Dance music and I see that the duplication on that station would be significantly less.

2293 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: When you say there would be some duplication can you put any sort of percentage on that?

2294 MR. DAVIES: It is hard when we have don't have a radio station operating, like I heard the people yesterday talking about doing these 70 monitors of these markets here and we did the same thing in preparation, except we don't have a radio station that is programming seven days just yet. So the best thing we can do is take an example of what we feel are our core artists at this radio station and just try and match it up to the existing players in the market.

2295 CJAY, there would be some duplication, perhaps in the neighbourhood of 20 to 25 per cent artist duplication and that's about the most it would be.

2296 If I look at a comparable radio station in the United States operating in the modern AC format that's probably where I could come up with that figure.


2298 Let's just look for a moment at CHFM and CKIF

2299 MR. DAVIES: Which we have as CHRK because I think they changed call letters.


2301 I would like to know to what extent your station or your proposed station would compete for listeners with those two stations?

2302 MR. DAVIES: Perhaps I can run through how we will differ really from all the radio stations because there are not that many here and it is pretty easy to go through that.

2303 We are going to play a combination of artists and songs that consistently no one else is playing in Calgary. We will not play many artists and songs that the other stations in fact do play. For example, a country station might play Garth Brooks and Clint Black, but The Peak won't play those artists.

2304 A hard rock station like CHRK would play Metallica and AC/DC for example. The Peak won't play those artists.

2305 The classic rock station, CHRK, would play Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd. We wouldn't play those artists.

2306 The rhythmic station or the top 40 station playing artists like Will Smith and Back Street Boys, we wouldn't play those artists.

2307 The CHFM up there, it should be easy listening, playing artists like Celine Dion and Elton John, we wouldn't play those artists.

2308 In the radio business a station's format is defined by what it plays and what it does not play. The combination of what The Peak will play and won't play will make us the only station in Calgary operating in this modern AC format. The Peak will appeal to both men and women who like mainstream contemporary rock. They don't want it too hard, like the rock stations on the left. They don't want it too soft, like CHFM up on the right, and they don't want it too teen or dance like CKIK on the lower right there.

2309 We are going to play artists like All Star, Alanis Morissette, the Goo Goo Dolls, Tal Bachman, The Matthew Good Band, Matchbox 20. While a number of these artists are played on the other stations, in order to hear our core group of artists one would have to listen to two or three different radio stations and most likely they would have to put up with a number of songs that they don't necessarily care for to hear those artists. So that's how we set ourselves apart from the rest of the players here.


2311 I think you were here for the presentation by Standard and one of the things that they discussed with us was the difficulty they faced in competing against Corus and Rogers with respect to national advertising.

2312 They are already in the market. You are proposing to come in as a new entrant to the market. Are you worried about this? Is this going to be a problem for you if you were granted an application and you had to come in here as a lone wolf?

2313 MR. WATERS: I think, Commissioner McKendry, maybe the most important point is that when we are talking about national business, which is what the people this morning were speaking about, that is where Corus and Rogers sell on a combination. That is really only about 20 or 25 per cent of the total revenue in the marketplace.

2314 So you have got the other 70 per cent is retail business or local business. I think Paul mentioned in our opening remarks that when you are a start-up operation the local retail business is far more important I think than the national. But, however, competing nationally with that group is difficult, but it is not something that we haven't been up against before and we are prepared to take that situation on.

2315 Kerry, maybe you would like to offer further comment?

2316 MS FRENCH: Yes. Mr. Commissioner, I think that in all the other markets that we are operating in we have run across a similar situation of large groups of stations selling in a package against us when we have either only one station or two stations in a market. It is a difficult position to be in, but what happens, especially on the national level, when through the national rep shop they force these packages.

2317 It is a practice that isn't looked upon favourably by the advertising agencies or the advertisers.

2318 What it does is it tries to force an advertiser to be on a station that they don't necessarily need to be on, where they are reaching customers that really aren't their potential customers.

2319 Our policy has always been that we try and sell the audience that matches the advertiser, so that the targeting of radio, one of the things that makes radio a great advertising medium is not wasted like it is when you are forcing stations that are dealing with two completely demographic groups.

2320 That's the CHUM policy of selling nationally and locally and we have experience in markets like Vancouver and Winnipeg where there are large packages that we sell against and we are very successful in doing it because of our particular selling philosophy. So I think we have got the experience to deal with this.

2321 MR. SKI: Commissioner McKendry, I think as an operator in one of those markets I can say that if you are faced with the reality of bulk coming at you, I think CHUM prides itself in the fact that we just have stronger local sales teams. The top three reasons that clients normally buy radio locally doesn't have much to do with ratings or price. Normally it has everything to do with the quality of their sales force and we spend a great deal of time and money in making sure that our local sales forces are as strong as they can be.

2322 I think I would currently say that they are some of the strongest in the markets that they are in.


2324 I am looking at page 22 of the Bay Consulting Group Report and in the conclusion there is a statement that says, and I quote:

"In summary, Calgary the market, which is ready for at least one other radio station."  (As read)

2325 There is an implication there that Calgary is ready for more than one radio station and I wondered if you had any comment on that?

2326 MR. WATERS: Well -- yes.

2327 You just took me by surprise there.

2328 Yes, I think it's a -- I mean it's clear from the study that we have done and, I think, the information provided by the other applicants that we have got a very vibrant radio market here and when you compare it to some of the other markets, like Edmonton and Winnipeg, like there's nowhere near as many signals here. And a question that you have been asking the other applicants about frequency availability --

2329 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: That's my next question, so go right ahead.

2330 MR. WATERS: Great. Glad you said that.

2331 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: And think about the AM licence, at the same time.

--- Laughter / Rires

2332 MR. WATERS: I have thought about that. I haven't been sure how to answer that question.

2333 But a little bit of background. When the Commission put forward its multiple licence ownership policy a couple of years ago, one of the first things that we did was ask Doug Allen, the engineering consultant, if he would do a frequency search for us in the markets in which we operated, and also in some other markets where we thought we might attempt to expand at some time down the road, and I still have his report from June 9th, 1998, and I was fortunate to see Doug in the room yesterday and I asked him if anything has changed and, really, what we found out, when he did the search in 1998, there were actually five signals available here, 92.9, 98.5, 103.1, 106.1 and 89.7. 106.1 was the CKO frequency that was used, and it's kind of gone or it disappeared. But people have tried to use it again and they keep having problems with Navcom, so I'm not sure how we overcome that but it appears it's a frequency that has been used before, here. So I think that's one that might be available. 92.9 is slightly impaired, it's not as good a signal as 98.5, but it is available. And I guess 88.1, which there are two other applicants applying for here today, that's also another frequency. So there certainly appears to be enough places to put, certainly -- to certainly license two stations. 98.5, I think, from what I understand from our technical information, is that it is the best frequency. But, certainly, there is maybe more than one opportunity here.


2335 About the AM?

2336 MR. WATERS: And about the AM. Well, CHUM is pretty proud of its AM stations, right across the country. I can't say that we are financially doing well on too many of them but it's kind of where CHUM started -- it is where CHUM started, at 1050 in Toronto, but -- however, I think I have probably got a few people around this table that want to do something dramatic to me if I said that we would probably be happy to have the AM frequency. I think, as the other applicants have said, this is not a new story, but AM is not exactly the ideal place to put a new -- a musical format such as this on. So I would be hesitant to start jumping up and down about an AM frequency.

2337 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: I see that you are sitting motionless.

--- Laughter / Rires

2338 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: I have one more question for you but, Mr. Chair, perhaps that's a question best put after anybody else's questions because that's the question where we ask people if they would like to bring anything to our attention or if they have any points they want to emphasize.

2339 So those are my questions and the Chair can put that question to you if there are no other questions. Thank you very much.

2340 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner McKendry.

2341 There are a few other questions. I will begin with Commissioner Cram, please.

2342 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

2343 I first wanted to ask a question because the impression I got -- first, I believe, Mr. Waters, that there's a typo, I think, at page 2. Weren't the FM services here in 1984 not 1994? Or has my mind completely gone? And I want you to know I'm still counting the extra 10 in IQ but...

--- Laughter / Rires

2344 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I think the last licensing round was in 1984, or 1982, and then they came into the market in 1984. Aren't I right?

2345 MR. WATERS: I think Mark Lewis might be able to help me here.

2346 Mark...?

2347 MR. LEWIS: Yes, I believe in 1994 there was an AM to FM flip of CKXL. And then, in 1996, there were two applicants for the same frequency, one was Touch Radio, which is a commercial christian music station, which was licensed, and the other was an ethnic radio station, also a commercial FM station. So, since 1994, there have been three.

2348 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I see your point. Okay.

2349 You left the impression, when you were talking about CHUM National News, and particularly I think Mr. Davies, that if you didn't have a station you didn't cover the news. And what you said, there's no quota but you try to make sure that each station gets on there anyway.

2350 So, for your national news, now, do you have any reporters here?

2351 MR. DAVIES: In Calgary?


2353 MR. DAVIES: No. But if the station is licensed, that will be part of the process where the station's newsroom will be responsible for feeding the national news.

2354 What I meant was each station -- we try to get each station to contribute every day, Monday to Friday, and that's how that works. And sometimes Peterborough may not have something to contribute that particular day, that's why they wouldn't be heard. But in the nine-minute newscast -- that's one of the reasons why it's nine minutes long is we want to make sure we cover the whole part of the CHUM group of stations from Halifax to Vancouver.

2355 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And if there isn't a CHUM station there, you don't cover the news? Is that -- like that's the impression you were leaving and so that's what I wanted to clarify.

2356 MR. DAVIES: No, we do news from other parts of the country but we -- in fact, if there is a big story in a city where we aren't located, we will do what we can to contact someone at one of the stations in that market to contribute to the newscast if we can.

2357 COMMISSIONER CRAM: That's what I wanted to understand.

2358 Secondly, last December, if I recall correctly, Mr. Davies, you were talking about being part of a group who donated or arranged to donate instruments to schools. Isn't that correct?

2359 MR. DAVIES: Yes. I'm a past director of CARAS, however, I'm still on the music advisory committee for CARAS, and that's part of the instrument lending/instrument distribution program that CARAS has going on for a number of years now. And I'm still an active member of that board. That's why I am quite aware of the problem that exists with music education in the country.

2360 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And they don't exist here? CARAS doesn't exist --

2361 MR. DAVIES: No, CARAS doesn't have that much money to donate, and we have to donate money right across the country. We donated $10,000, I guess in our -- what is it Duff? Was it the 25th anniversary year of CARAS? Because of the project that we undertook with the compilation Canadian CD, we were able to get a lot of money that was able to fund a number of these school programs across the country and, that year, we gave -- because it was the commemorative year, we gave away $10,000 to 10 schools right across the country, in each province.

2362 But this year, for example, we only have enough money to give I think it's three schools, and we are talking about atlantic Canada, central Canada and western Canada.

2363 So, that program exists but it's not nearly enough.

2364 I mean I was just talking, the other day -- we had a meeting, and there was a school in Quesnel, B.C. that sent a letter that almost brings a tear to your eye. The school is in the process -- they have a piano with three legs on it and their letter to us, it makes you cry because they have to go out and borrow a piano for their band to go out and play concerts. They have asked CARAS if they can get funding to supply instruments. So it's stuff like that that we get all the time. It's a very serious problem.

2365 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Philosophically -- and I was listening to what you were saying and, believe me, I don't disagree with educating people into music, and I certainly understand and know that we have a higher IQ.

--- Laughter / Rires

2366 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I question the increased mathability, seriously, and the math concepts, I can tell you that.

--- Laughter / Rires

2367 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But when we assess these competitive applications and we are talking about assessing CTDs, should we be looking at what I call not only the amount of money but what I would call the "bang for the buck" to the system, to the broadcasting system? Because, after all, we are regulators of a Canadian system that wants to develop talent in the Canadian system. And I will tell you my analysis here.

2368 I think your idea is great, but where is the cost benefit analysis to the system? When does it happen? Because if you are talking that it's happening in 20 years, then you have to discount it, you know, as we all do when we are trying to figure out damages in a damage claim. And I understand that you have listeners -- a program like this would create listeners who would appreciate new genres. I understand the psychological part that you have more intelligence, theoretically, kids better at math, better adjusted children. But the system, the music system that people hear on these frequencies that we give out, I think you are a long way from it, and for every dollar you put in, what is the system going to get out of it and when?

2369 And let me give you an example. Like you say you have to get kids interested in music, number one. So, you know, say you get 10 per cent. Then you say they have to use it as a hobby. So then you are down to 5 per cent. Then you say you want them to use it as -- you know, consider it as an avocation. You are down to 1 per cent. And then you consider they have to be a success. So then you are down to .5 per cent.

2370 So, I'm talking about, you know, should we be looking at bang for the buck and if it's .5 per cent in 20 years' time, you know, discount that money by the value of time and I'm having a serious problem with it.

2371 MR. ROMAN: Well, I will start out here and say that, in terms of bang for the buck, first of all, we were advocating that they look at it more as a vocation than an avocation or hobby. So, really, we were sort of trying to point it in the other direction that music should be considered a worthy career.

2372 But I would like to back up a little bit because it was really your Commission, under Chairperson Bertrand, that asked us to think outside the box when we had our consultations with the music industry. Now, those were all centred the review of radio. Ultimately, as you know, the commercial radio policy came out of that. But it was your Commission that knocked our heads together and told us to go out into the constituency we served to talk to the people that would benefit from our Canadian talent development initiatives. So we talked to the SIRPAs and we talked to the other organizations. But more than that, we felt that, on a community basis, if we are going to apply for a licence in Calgary, we would do the advance work, we would go into Calgary and we would talk to the music community. What we determined in Calgary is that there is a music community that starts at the very grassroots and winds up with people like Jan Arden at the other end, as accomplished well-known and recognized artists.

2373 The more we talked to the music movers and shakers in Calgary, the more we realized that it really began earlier than the kinds of initiatives that we have traditionally done, and I suggest that those initiatives are getting better and better funded.

2374 Our worry, really -- and I have been a member of the FACTOR board and, as its founding president, I go all the way back to its inception in 1982 -- is the kind of material that's coming in, the kind of submissions that we want to leverage to the next level. It isn't always great. And we get the same comment from those individuals who are apply to FACTOR; and that is, "We need more help, more instruments -- not more instruments but tools to get to that next level".

2375 So we had a choice. We could have decided to -- as you say, "bang for the buck" -- throw money at it in traditional ways but we felt that we had a chance here to get outside the box and to say, "Look, this has got to be given an opportunity to take flight". It could start in Calgary, it could start in Vancouver, it could start in any part of the country, but unless we start getting the people that are involved in the nuts and bolts of the music industry thinking about that input, the grassroots coming in, we are going to stay stalled at roughly 9-10 per cent of the total music product available at retail. We can raise the quotas; we can keep raising them. We have to significantly actually have a breakthrough. The Beatles had a breakthrough for England which, by population and demographics, shouldn't have done what they did. They dominated the music industry. And that fallout continues to this day.

2376 But activists got together. There was a time and a place in history where they could make a difference. We think that that is going on now in a lot of communities across Canada.

2377 With m.PLAY, it is the first chance we have had, the first crack to actually lay it out in front of the Commission and say to you: here is something that is original, it is outside of the box, but boy is it bang on in terms of the entire music system. You can't develop or raise to the next level or to promote and to turn into stars without something coming in at the beginning. That is where we want to start with this initiative.

2378 MR. FARRELL: Case in point, Paul Brandt was 1990; he has been successful. Ashwin Sood and Sarah McLachlan, late eighties. But there are students -- I can give a list of them -- some have gone to England to the Paul McCartney School, who are recording artists in England now. Some are in Los Angeles right now, former students who graduated out of high schools here -- it makes me very sad -- who graduated from high schools here in Calgary who are down in Los Angeles right now. There are people who are going to New York, they are in New York right now working, and they are Canadian artists who came out of these schools here in Calgary.

2379 There wasn't anything for them because of lack of funding, and there can be through m.PLAY because we want to look at the authentic artist, the excellent artist, and build something from that as a prototype -- m.PLAY can do that.

2380 It won't be .5 per cent of people because there are so many people out there, there are many people I am working with now who are adults, who wish so much that they could get involved with the music industry. There are people out there who are former students as well who are sitting on music boards who are granting money to different organizations who graduated out of the very music courses that Paul Brandt came out of and Ashwin Sood.

2381 So it is much bigger than the .5 per cent that you might have talked about, and it starts early. We know through brain research, we know through education research that it starts in those early years, and that it is a very -- a profession of great integrity that we can teach in our schools and move people to the world stage and they can come from a place called Calgary through a program like m.PLAY.

2382 MR. DAVIES: Commissioner Cram, if I may.

2383 We need more Canadian performers. We need to develop more.

2384 You have heard on this video tape today no less than Jan Arden, Tom Cochrane and Susan Aglukark speak passionately about the need for these kind of programs, and you just heard about the story of Paul Brandt. This program will create more of these people, and we desperately need it. This is the closest thing I have ever come across in my 28 years in this business that addresses the need to start our music supply system at the beginning.

2385 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

2386 But my question was: How do we, then, compare it? I don't know how much money you are putting in in total. Standard is putting in, say, $2 million more. Theirs is far more direct in terms of urban artists and we will see the bang for the buck earlier. Yours is far less direct, we will see the bang for the buck later, perhaps a bigger bang. But how do we evaluate those in a competitive process? Do we just look at the money, because it isn't an auction?

2387 You know, how do we evaluate the CTD commitments, one against another? Do we use bang for the buck? What criteria do we use?

2388 MR. WATERS: That is a very difficult question to answer, which is obviously why you were asking the question. But I think -- you know, all of the initiatives that have been put forward, it is not easy for the Commission to determine, you know, which is the best. You are quite right, God help us if it becomes an auction. That's wrong. How much you put in doesn't matter. It is what you feel and what you think will come from the initiative that you are starting.

2389 When we started speaking -- I know that our original discussion in Toronto amongst Ross and myself and Duff when we started, the very early stages of working on this application, one of the things that has impressed me the most about what goes on inside of CHUM is what Sarah Crawford has spearheaded in our television division. I think we all have been exposed to that and we said: you know, there has to be something that we can do in radio that supports education. We don't know what it is, but let's take that route, it's an unconventional route I guess, it's not where everyone else goes or have gone before, but let's take that route.

2390 This is where we have gotten to with m.PLAY, and I think it's a wonderful initiative. I understand what you are saying about it may pay -- the payoff is further out, but in the long term it is going to be worth it. When I hear people -- not to repeat what Ross said, but Jan Arden and Tom Cochrane and Susan Aglukark are great Canadian artists and stars, and to hear them say how critical this was to them, their beginnings, that is meaningful to me.

2391 Susan would you like to add something?

2392 MS FARRELL: We have been highly focused on very young students in this discussion today. In our prior discussions to today that emphasis wasn't as strong. It was more all the way up until, as Rachel Hopp said in the tape, there is no bridge between the textbook and the school and the real world. That's a part we haven't talked about very much today and yet it is in there and all of the underplay and performance.

2393 So I'm sort of wishing we had a chance to develop that more, because, as Brian is saying we spent the spring at our house, of our own initiative, before we met the CHUM people trying to figure out how we were going to do this because there are so many young artists who would be in the late-teens/early-20s age group who are looking as to: How do I do this; where do I go next? They have no mentorship. They don't know what to do next, and they don't know how to even come involved or how to put together a demo, how to get into a recording studio, all of those kinds of things. They are going by the seat of their pants. If we had people who had experience in those areas, like the other experienced artists on the screen, that would be most helpful to them.

2394 So there will be likely some long-term and legacy effects just as the Olympics have had on Calgary. Our sports legacy here is huge. People come from all over Canada to Calgary to be developed. CODA has started a joint school with Calgary Public called the National Sports School where carded athletes and non-carded in sports like hockey get to go to develop themselves, to look towards NCAA or NHL programs, whatever. But we don't have anything like that in Calgary for the music community, and we need to have something there as well.

2395 So that is what we haven't spent a lot of time talking about, those music workshops and the development of the older musicians.

2396 MR. ROMAN: Commissioner Cram, if I could, just further on that, the Olympic analogy.

2397 In our discussions in Calgary, there were a lot of people that said 1988 and the Olympics, the can-do spirit, the community getting together was really the rebirth of the area and culminated in what they call the "New Calgary". That had a tremendous sense of voluntarism, a tremendous sense of local citizens' pride. We think we will instill that in Calgary.

2398 But this is a very serious discussion, and I think you have raised a good question, and I think we have been through this on other occasions.

2399 At one time, FACTOR and Music Action was a radical idea. There are other countries, other relationships between music people and radio people in which they could not understand how broadcasters would get together and give money for the production of recordings. Still in the United States this is considered a basic heresy. They keep telling us: Hey, it's the other way around, isn't it, Duff?

2400 So from that standpoint we needed to have somebody who could grasp the concept of that kind of relationship, and today we take it for granted, we throw out the words "FACTOR" and "Music Action" and "ArtsFact" and all of these other worthy organizations as part of the sort of -- that's the currency of our dialogue, but every one of those started somewhere and every one of them needed a breakthrough. Believe me, working on those front lines and in the trenches on those initiatives, there were a lot of people that were looking at other ways or ways that were, let's say, more conventional.

2401 This requires somewhat of a leap of faith from us, but we see that we have got to build critical mass. We have got to have a pool of young, creative musical talent to really have a meaningful difference made to the amount of wonderful records to play on the radio and to truly, truly build this Canadian star system. I think those middle and top levels in terms of associations and organizations to build and develop the Canadian star system are very well served.

2402 As I said before, it would be easy to make a direct contribution to FACTOR. We have taken a lot of time with trying to get out of the box on this one and to build that critical mass.

2403 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

2404 Thank you.

2405 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cram.

2406 Commissioner Langford, you have --

2407 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I just have one revolutionary question, which I tried yesterday on the team from Telemedia. They looked at me the way I used to look at my old Aunt Maggie when she would lose her false teeth or something like that. But, anyway, I will try it again. There was kindness in their face but very little enthusiasm.

--- Laughter / Rires

2408 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I note that so much of your Canadian development or talent development is in education obviously, and you are not alone in that. We have heard other applicants, some with huge amounts, some with small amounts. Everyone is not looking for glory, so that is a good start, and what better way to make sure you don't get the glory than to team up with someone else, assuming we go pass the stage where you would team up before, because that would be not the right timing, would you consider in your symposium, inviting other applicants if they are successful or existing radio stations, television stations to enlarge or to expand in some way this education initiative?

2409 MR. WATERS: Commissioner Langford, without question it is not about CHUM; it's about music education. It's about the children.

2410 I was here when you asked Claude Beaudoin yesterday. I have the highest regard for Claude and Telemedia, and if they were the ones that were -- if it was the two of us that were licensed, I would be most happy to join force with them. It doesn't matter who it is. It's the purpose. It's not about our company or theirs I'm sure. I'm sure they feel the same way.

2411 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I want to say for the record that I was teasing myself, and Mr. Beaudoin's reaction was not only instructive but very enthusiastic as well.

2412 If I could comment, if I'm allowed, I know we are going for our break soon, but when I listened to Mr. Waters describe how The Peak had got into the middle and it wasn't too hard and it wasn't too soft, and I finally understood why you chose the colour goldie yellow because it's goldilocks radio, obviously.

--- Laughter / Rires

2413 MR. WATERS: We didn't want to bring that up.

2414 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Langford.

2415 Legal counsel, questions? No questions.

2416 Well, Mr. Waters, in a couple of minutes, mindful that our break is coming up, you get the opportunity to demonstrate those superior sales skills that the CHUM team brings into a competitive market and tell us why the CHUM application is the best for the 98.5 frequency.

2417 MR. WATERS: Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity. I did do some thinking about that -- or have done and did some over last night. I have made some notes and I won't be long.

2418 First of all, CHUM will bring a fresh, new local service to the Calgary community. We believe very strongly in letting our managers in each of our markets run the show. These people live and work in the communities that we serve and we feel that they know best how to serve the local interest in each.

2419 CHUM also spends a great deal of time and money on programming and music research in all of our markets. It has played a major role in our success.

2420 When we began doing research in the mid-eighties, the company we hired told us that we were guilty of inside-out thinking. They said: You think you know what the listeners want, but why don't you be sure and why don't you ask them? So we did. The results are amazing when you give the listeners what they want. That is what our strategy has been.

2421 In Calgary it's no different. We asked the listeners here what they wanted and they told us: a blend of contemporary rock from the nineties through today without heavy metal, without rap or funk -- the modern adult contemporary format. This is what the people deliver, an unduplicated radio service that will bring more diversity to Calgary radio.

2422 CHUM's record of community service is something we are very proud of also. Two examples that come to mind are the CFRA House, part of the Habitat for Humanity Project in Ottawa, and the CHUM City Christmas Wish in Toronto. We look forward to having the opportunity to create initiatives such as these in the Calgary community should we be awarded the licence.

2423 Finally, CHUM has created FACTOR, VideoFact, BravoFact and ArtsFact. All these initiatives have been providing benefits to the broadcast system for many years. They all had to start somewhere. We believe our proposed initiative, m.PLAY, can bring those same long-term benefits to the broadcast system and we want to begin building it in Calgary.

2424 For these reasons, we respectfully ask for your approval of this application.

2425 We thank you very much.

2426 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Waters, and CHUM panel members for your presentation.

2427 Now, Mr. Secretary, we will take a 20-minute break and resume with Gary Farmer on behalf of a company to be incorporated.

2428 MR. BURNSIDE: Might I suggest, Mr. Chair, that we have to replenish water supplies and that. If we came back at a quarter to four so it gives us about 23 minutes.

2429 THE CHAIRPERSON: Twenty-three minutes.

--- Upon recessing at 1530 / Suspension à 1530

--- Upon resuming at 1550 / Reprise à 1550

2430 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. We will now call the Calgary public hearing back to order.

2431 Mr. Secretary.

2432 MR. BURNSIDE: The next application to be heard is an application by Gary Farmer on behalf of a company to be incorporated and to be known as Aboriginal Voices Radio for a broadcasting licence to carry on an English and aboriginal language FM radio programming undertaking at Calgary. The new station would operate on the frequency 88.1 with an effective radiated power of 33,000 watts.

2433 You may proceed when you are ready.


2434 MR. KENNEDY: Good afternoon. Bonjour.

--- Native language spoken / Langage autochtone

2435 It is a good day for us, Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, Commission staff, members of the public.

2436 We are honoured to appear before you today to speak on behalf of Aboriginal Voice Radio, a non-profit aboriginal organization with membership from all regions across Canada.

--- Native language spoken / Langage autochtone

2437 MR. KENNEDY: My name is Bob Kennedy. I am a member of the Onpida Nation and a member of the founding board of Aboriginal Voices Radio.

2438 If I may before we begin our formal presentation, we would like to honour and recognize the people of Treaty Seven upon whose traditional territory we are meeting here today.

2439 As well, I would like to take an opportunity to say thank you to Elder Rod Hunter of Nakota Nation in Morley who this morning held a ceremony on our behalf here in this building to encourage us and to welcome us into the territory and to show his support through this spiritual ceremony. So for that we say thanks to all our relations.

2440 We will now introduce ourselves.

2441 MS BUFFALO: Good afternoon, Commissioners.

--- Native language spoken / Langage autochtone

2442 MS BUFFALO: My name is Marilyn Buffalo. I am from the Cree Nation, Samson, which is two hours north of here, and spent a lot of my youth and was raised in the City of Calgary and district.

2443 I have also just completed a three-year term as President of Native Women Association of Canada. I have acted as a policy advisor to the Assembly of First Nations. I was an advisor on native affairs to the University of Alberta and founded the Faculty of Native Studies in 1975.

2444 I am very proud to be here as a representative of the team to present for Aboriginal Voices Radio.

2445 MR. FARMER: Good afternoon.

--- Native language spoken / Langage autochtone

2446 MR. FARMER: My name is Gary Farmer.

2447 I am the speaker of Aboriginal Voices Radio and also an actor and radio and television producer and a long-time advocate of native media development and broadcasting and print.

2448 Thank you.

2449 MS RIDER: Good afternoon.

--- Native language spoken / Langage autochtone

2450 MS RIDER: I am a radio broadcaster from the community of Morley, just west of here -- about 40 kilometres out.

2451 MR. LITTLECHIEF: My name is Redmond Littlechief and I am the President of the Urban Society for Aboriginal Youth.

2452 We are a non-profit organization here in the City of Calgary and we are also the Mayor's Aboriginal Youth Advisory Committee on Aboriginal Youth Issues.

2453 MR. MacLEOD: Good afternoon, members of the Commission.

2454 My name is Mark MacLeod. I am the Director of Licensing and Development for Aboriginal Voices Radio and I have previously had the privilege of heading a national campus community radio association in both Canada and the U.S. So that is my area of expertise and I am glad to be here.

2455 MS THRUSH: My name is Michele Thrush. I am an actress and also a writer as well as a mother and a wife living in Calgary. I grew up in Calgary and I have remained very active in the performing arts community in the local as well as on the national level.

2456 MR. HORVATH: Hello. My name is Tom Horvath. I am Ojibway from Ontario, but have been living in Calgary for about 15 years now.

2457 I am currently the producer and host of Beyond Beads and Feathers which is a show dedicated to aboriginal programming at the University of Calgary station.

2458 MR. FRASER: Good afternoon. My name is Joshua Fraser. I am the Executive Director for the Urban Society Aboriginal News. I am also a journalist for the Mount Royal College and the PICSS Post newspaper.

2459 Thank you.

2460 MR. KENNEDY: Members of the Commission, I would also like to take a moment to introduce other members of the team.

2461 Shane Breaker of Siksika Nation Communications. The Siksika has a non-appearing low-power application at this hearing before yourselves.

2462 Peter Doering of Peter Doering Consultations. He is our market research consultant. John Matthews is our Director of Engineering, and Bob Templeton is President of Newcap Broadcasting, Aboriginal Voices Radio's broadcasting partner.

2463 I would now like to ask Gary to begin our opening remarks.

2464 MR. FARMER: Good afternoon, member of the Commission.

2465 We are pleased to appear before you once again. We are here today to talk about the need for a new radio service in the Calgary area and to outline our proposal to meet that need.

2466 In our presentation, we will tell you Calgary's need for an aboriginal radio service. You will hear about our plan for a radio service designed to fulfil this need. We will describe our business plan for urban aboriginal radio in Calgary and highlight the talented and experienced team that we joined us to reach that goal.

2467 For Calgary, this will be a new station offering new music, new news and most importantly new voices.

2468 MR. HORVATH: Members of the Commission.

2469 The station we propose would be a first radio service for Calgary's estimated 40,000 aboriginal people.

2470 Calgary does not have an aboriginal radio station. Currently, from what I understand, I produce Calgary's only weekly half-hour of aboriginal radio programming and I do this on CJSW-FM at the University of Calgary.

2471 Unfortunately, a lack of aboriginal programming is common in major cities across Canada. Aboriginal Voices Radio has surveyed the listing habits of urban native people and more than half have said that they actually seek out that single hour or two available to them of aboriginal programming.

2472 My program in Calgary gets a tremendous community response despite the fact that it is not always convenient for people to tune in for that 30-minute or half-hour a week that I am on the air. If you are not careful, you can miss my show pretty easily.

2473 There are a dozen radio services received in the Calgary market, yet there really isn't one to reflect aboriginal culture. That means of the roughly 2,000 hours of radio programming available each week in Calgary, from what I understand, my show is the only 30 minutes of programming with a consistent aboriginal focus.

2474 Not a single statio and only 30 minutes out of more than 2,000 hours.

2475 I sit today with the Aboriginal Voices Radio team because I know there is an audience in Calgary for our programming.

2476 MS THRUSH: Members of the Commission.

2477 Aboriginal Voices Radio clearly has a passion to communication, a passion for radio. But is there an audience?

2478 Aboriginal Voices Radio has used a variety of techniques, including market research, focus groups and broad community consultation to identify the expressed needs of aboriginal communities. That research is the foundation for our programming and business plans. Meeting the expressed needs of the community: that is the wellspring of our passion.

2479 Aboriginal Voices Radio's market research in major cities across Canada has shown that 9 in 10 Canadians believe that there is a need for a national aboriginal radio service. The same percentage supports the goals that AVR has for its proposed service. In Calgary, the research found that that support is 91 per cent.

2480 In keeping with our traditions, Aboriginal Voices Radio came to Calgary to present the network concept to ensure it was wanted and to shape it to fit our community's needs. At a public community meeting, and in many individual audiences, the response was without exception warm and welcoming.

2481 Aboriginal Voices Radio is well aware of the number of needs in the Calgary community. Over the last three decades, a wide variety of reports from various levels of government, including the comprehensive Royal Commission report, have detailed the loss in Canadian culture due to the absence of aboriginal media.

2482 The report also sets out the expected benefits for both aboriginal Canadians and the general public from the development of aboriginal media.

2483 The Assembly of First Nations specifically supports the effort to establish aboriginal radio services in Canadian urban centres.

2484 The Minister for Indian Affairs, Robert Nault, has prioritized improved communications as the key to the successful resolution of outstanding issues between native and non-native people.

2485 The federal government, in partnership with the aboriginal leadership, has recognized the magnitude of the crisis. A number of major joint initiatives are under way with a focus on developing and supporting healthier urban aboriginal communities.

2486 Communication is a vital component of these new initiatives and a free and accessible medium of radio is a key to restoration of culture.

2487 Radio can support improvement in community health and reductions in substance abuse and suicide. It is not an overstatement that a radio service in Calgary can save lives.

2488 MR. LITTLECHIEF: Members of the Commission.

2489 We all recognize that living in an urban community is stressful. Radio can provide the connection we all need to overcome the isolation and alienation of city life. Urban aboriginal people are in the process of restoring and reclaiming our communities through personal and collective healing journeys.

2490 With radio we can reach out to promote each other's efforts in the struggle for healthier communities. With radio we can build a better understanding between aboriginal people and Canadians, and with radio we can promote positive aboriginal role models, especially to our young people.

2491 Radio respects aboriginal oral traditions and allows sharing the wealth of indigenous knowledge, culture and values. Radio is a natural fit for us. Radio brings aboriginal people into the discourse which will shape the future of all our lives.

2492 Calgary is a cosmopolitan city and a gathering place for people from many regions and backgrounds. Aboriginal people are a vital part of the city's cultural and civic life and the population of Calgary has grown quickly and its aboriginal communities grow even faster.

2493 While aboriginal people in Calgary have expressed a strong interest in the new station, our market survey shows an overwhelmingly favourable response beyond the native community. Our programming includes and welcomes all people and is an offering to all of Calgary.

2494 Think of AVR as the radio service of aboriginal people, for all people.

2495 MS BUFFALO: Commissioners, we want you to understand our national vision and the role that our Calgary radio service will play in it.

2496 We envisage a full 24-hour national network which will deliver programming from an aboriginal perspective from our Toronto flagship to our Calgary station.

2497 This national feed will include contributions and perspectives from aboriginal people across Canada. Our network's national programming menu will be similar to the CBC's multi-format offerings to its national listeners. Just as the CBC's national schedule is supplemented by local programming, AVRN will offer increasingly local programming as resources become available. We will establish a Calgary Media Advisory Circle to provide local guidance and to make our national programming responsive to Calgary's needs.

2498 The development of Calgary-based programming will begin with locally-produced segments such as special event programming that will be carried in the national schedule. This experience will cultivate the local talent and organization needed to present consistent high quality, weekly and daily local Calgary programming.

2499 AVR will support local efforts to nurture and provide training in order to ensure that high quality local programming is introduced when it is ready. This cautious approach will ensure a financially stable vehicle for the future local programming, while we can, at the same time, be sure that local programming is under local direction and responsive to the needs of its audience.

2500 MR. KENNEDY: Calgary's aboriginal community includes many languages and cultures. AVR programming will be primarily in English, with regular inclusion of many of Canada's 53 native languages, as well as in French, Spanish and other languages.

2501 Many aboriginal languages and cultures remain in great danger of extinction. AVR programming will support the preservation of aboriginal languages in this emergency situation. Every program will support and promote aboriginal cultures and traditions.

2502 The network programming schedule will include full aboriginal news reports, national phone-in programs, a women's round table discussion, focus programs on language, youth, elders, health and many other areas.

2503 News assignments will focus on events which impact Canada's aboriginal communities that have been overlooked and underreported by other news sources. AVR will also air spoken word programming which features in-depth exploration of public or community current affairs.

2504 As resources become available, one to two Calgary journalists or producers will be hired to staff a local aboriginal news bureau to provide enhanced local coverage.

2505 Arts programming will also be an important part of our programming. We will create a comfortable place for our stories to be told, through dramas, radio plays and storytelling.

2506 MS RIDER: Members of the Commission, AVR music programming will feature a mix of primarily Canadian and world aboriginal artists in a broad range of musical styles, with program hosts providing informed commentary, information on the artists presented and a variety of education and entertaining Canadian aboriginal perspectives on issues of the day.

2507 While the new radio will bring an aboriginal world of programming to Calgary, the vibrant local community of Calgary will make vital contributions to the programming service they hear.

2508 Open-line programs will include the participation of Calgary listeners.

2509 Listeners can make music requests by telephone and by the Internet.

2510 News reports, interviews and other segments will allow elders, youth, women and men of Calgary's various nations and cultures to share their voices.

2511 This national programming perspective will allow current events and cultural affairs taking place in other regions of the country to be better understood in Calgary, without the filter of mainstream media. Of course, the new service will also provide the opportunity for local Calgary regional issues to be examined in the context of a national perspective for listeners in Calgary and elsewhere.

2512 MR. FARMER: Members of the Commission, our market research has demonstrated demand in Calgary for our proposed service.

2513 We took a very conservative approach in using this demand to forecast how much national advertising revenue could be generated by adding Calgary to the existing network. Our revenue projections far exceed the modest operating costs.

2514 A network consisting of at least Toronto and Calgary stations will be on a sound financial footing, with great potential advertising revenue growth, and less reliance on program underwriting and fundraising.

2515 We have strong support in Calgary for a pre-launch campaign to offset all of the station's capital and start-up costs. These costs total less than a quarter of our current $1 million reserve fund, which was created to cover unforeseen shortfalls in AVR's development.

2516 The Calgary service is not expensive to establish and we can operate it because we plan to introduce local programming only later after we have established the network revenues and expanded and stabilized.

2517 MR. ANTHONY: Members of the Commission, AVR has a solid business plan and the financial and human resources to back it up. AVR is continuing to expand its board and recruit additional advisors to have the widest possible depth and breadth of expertise.

2518 Our legal counsel, Aird & Berlis, are working closely with us to review all legal implications of our national development plans, and our accounting firm, KPMG, have specialized experience in broadcasting and aboriginal business issues and project management. Our directors and Advisor Circle come from all across Canada and represent years of expertise n all areas of broadcasting.

2519 In addition to these resources, AVR seeks the spiritual guidance of our elders and the approval of all of our communities.

2520 The AVR radio team has produced and distributed radio shows to native stations and networks across North America. We have produced concerts, an arts festival, Web casts and 24-hour a day special event broadcasting in Toronto. Three years of outreach to the community have shaped our vision for an aboriginal radio service.

2521 Earlier this year, the Commission awarded AVR an FM radio licence in Toronto. AVR has submitted an application in Vancouver for a radio service like the one we propose for Calgary, and AVR's application for the AVRN national radio network is a non-appearing item at this CRTC hearing.

2522 This Calgary application represents the next step of AVR's plan to spearhead the rapid advancement of aboriginal broadcasting in Canada, especially in urban centres in southern Canada, where aboriginal voices are seldom heard on the airwaves. Despite years of supportive CRTC policies, this deplorable situation exists in contrast to the clearly stated objectives of the Broadcast Act.

2523 Just as the arrival of the AVRN service in Calgary will greatly benefit Calgary listeners, the launch of the Calgary service will play a key role in the development of the national aboriginal radio service right across Canada.

2524 AVRN will not duplicate existing aboriginal or non-aboriginal services but, rather, provide a supplementary and supportive service, complementing and building on radio services which presently exist in the Canadian broadcasting system. This will provide a new type of support for native broadcasters, particularly those who are ambitious to provide a full schedule of native programming, but are simply unable to secure the necessary resources.

2525 AVRN will work closely, and share programming with, these existing native broadcasters including the various native radio networks and societies which operate in northern and rural Canada, as well as other urban aboriginal broadcasters who produce programming for university based radio stations.

2526 MR. FARMER: Commissioners, Calgary needs a new aboriginal radio service.

2527 We need this voice to overcome ignorance of our history and of the Canadian aboriginal experience.

2528 We need this voice to offer positive role models and to balance negative media stereotypes.

2529 We need this voice to build greater understanding between aboriginal people and other Canadians.

2530 And most importantly, we need this voice in the struggle for healthy communities.

2531 Members of the Commission, today, finally, we have the opportunity to license a new and unique aboriginal radio service in Calgary.

2532 We have highlighted for you our plans for a programming service which includes seven lofty and ambitious goals:

2533 To be the first Calgary outlet for the broad every day expression of aboriginal voices;

2534 To offer a media venue where native and non-native Canadians can speak as neighbours;

2535 To be an inclusive radio service for all voices; women and men, elders and youth;

2536 To be a means of support for the promotion of aboriginal languages and culture;

2537 To provide exposure and promotion for aboriginal artists and entrepreneurs;

2538 To operate with respect for the principles of environmental sustainability, and;

2539 To remain a native controlled and operated media, not dependent on government.

2540 These are compelling objectives for our radio service.

2541 Members of the Commission, all the necessary elements have come together in this time and at this place.

2542 We have clearly identified demand in Calgary for a new urban aboriginal service, and we have carefully shaped our programming service to meet this demand.

2543 We have found a passion amongst aboriginal people in Calgary to share their wealth of indigenous knowledge, culture and positive values, and yet there is no current Calgary radio service upon which we might hear their voices.

2544 We have proposed a sustainable business plan which includes sufficient capital funding, and we have put together an experienced, confident and knowledgeable team.

2545 We have reached the moment where we have the opportunity to finally include a national aboriginal radio voice in the Canadian broadcast system.

2546 Commission members, the time has come for an aboriginal radio voice in Calgary. Thank you very much.

2547 THE CHAIRPERSON: Dene dae, Mr. Farmer and AVR panel members. My name is Ron Williams. I will be leading the questioning of your application.

2548 We are certainly pleased to hear this application on the traditional territory of the people of Treaty 7. Earlier today I was walking through the lobby of the hotel next door where we are staying and I came upon a statue of Chief Crowfoot. I saw the statue and so I went and read the little plaque on it. I now understand that he was a prominent aboriginal leader from this area who was one of the main advocates and signatories for Treaty 7. It was interesting to see that.

2549 I certainly understand and am aware of the need for aboriginal peoples to develop new communication networks. I know in the area I am from in the north there is an old saying, "Until the caribou tells its own story, the tale of the hunt will almost always glorify the hunter". I look forward to helping explore your application in more detail.

2550 My first question is although it is apparent from your application that the proposed Calgary station will be a repeater of the Toronto mother station at the beginning, it is not clear whether you propose to day one air local programming originating in Calgary that is oriented for the Calgary market only. Could you please explain your intentions?

2551 MR. FARMER: Yes. We are proposing two and a half hours of written programming right at the start of service to Calgary.

2552 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you envision the Calgary station during the proposed seven-year licence term broadcasting programming that is available only to Calgary residents?

2553 MR. FARMER: In our current seven-year plan we are planning no original programming that won't be heard on the network nationally, if I am not mistaken.

2554 MR. MacLEOD: Just the two and a half hours that we mentioned.

2555 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just the two and a half hours.

2556 So is your proposal that the Calgary frequency always be used to air what comes off the network from Toronto, including local programming from Calgary that is distributed over the network?

2557 MR. FARMER: It's only until the resources become available. Of course we know that in the licensing of Newcap in this particular market it means $1.2 million in the local area, which would enable us to start up an active part of the plan of one to two journalists in town and get that whole action plan going if indeed we win those dollars. Of course, we will pursue and have entered into some discussions with the local movers and shakers to assist us in committing some dollars if we have a licence in hand to upstart that sooner than we had originally hoped.

2558 THE CHAIRPERSON: Should the Newcap application not be approved, what would be your plan of action?

2559 MR. FARMER: We have had some discussions with much of the community here in terms of there is space available for instance at local facilities that would make room for us.

2560 We have had some discussion with the leadership and the Tsuu T'inna who have spoken about some commitment and interest to get the service originating -- I mean having original programming coming from the Calgary region, if indeed we have a licence.

2561 We have also of course with our team here are currently producing and maybe Margaret can lead a bit about what she is actually producing currently and the amount of programming that we are currently producing here in Morley.

2562 MS RIDER: I would like to add to what Gary has said as far as local programming. Our in Morley we have 10 hours a day, five days a week air time. Mainly our program is designed to meet the needs of the community that is right there.

2563 However, when --

--- Pause / Pause

2564 MS RIDER: Sorry. I will continue here.

2565 What we do back home is we believe in our old traditions and we broadcast in our language, which is a Nakota language, and we have elders come on and share a part of their teaching, with the community, as well as our traditional songs and that, I think, is something that we can share with the rest of Canada, with the aboriginal communities.

2566 MR. FARMER: I might add that, you know, in this particular community of Morley, we are there operating 50 hours a week of broadcasting some of the strongest pow-wow drums we have ever known in Canada, so they could easily operate, and we could set up a pow-wow show, for instance, out of Morley quite handsomely and get that right across the country.

2567 MR. KENNEDY: If I may add, Commissioner, it's our intention to work with the local groups that Mr. Farmer has referred to, and we are encouraged by the interest and the support. However, we would like to add that, of course, financial support that comes from our partners is crucial if we are to do professional, serious and rapidly progressive programming operation in Calgary. We do have some, certainly, interests and we have some creative ways that we can fill some of that local programming but, in fact, we will need some substantial financial assistance, as well.

2568 THE CHAIRPERSON: As no doubt you are aware, your application is competing with an application from Golden West Broadcasting for the same frequency, a High River-based broadcaster on the same frequency also serving the Calgary market.

2569 If any licence to operate on the 88.1 frequency is granted, could you please explain why it should be awarded to Aboriginal Voices Radio, especially given that the AVR station will be a repeater of a Toronto station while the Golden West proposes a service that will be specifically oriented to the area south of Calgary?

2570 MR. FARMER: Robert has an answer, as well, but I would like to first say that, you know, in our opening statement, we mentioned that there's about 40,000 aboriginal people here in Calgary region that our service would serve and, you know, knowing the High River application, I only know that they are looking towards 15,000 people down there that they need to serve and I would only say that it's coming into Calgary market and I think the need is greater amongst the aboriginal people than a service that would come in beyond their market that they are most interested in.

2571 Bob...?

2572 MR. KENNEDY: Perhaps I am just going to say it in a different way but my understanding of those applications is that there's already a served audience there, as opposed to -- and this would be an additional licence to serve that same audience, whereas here the urban aboriginal community is unserved, absolutely; so this would be the genesis that doesn't exist at all for urban aboriginal people.

2573 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Farmer.

2574 Given that you propose to offer on the Calgary stations such a small amount of programming directed only to the residents of Calgary, how do you justify using up a radio frequency in the Calgary market with a station that has minimal local input, or a small amount of local input?

2575 MR. FARMER: Well, we believe that the programming that we are going to be originating in Toronto is going to be extremely relevant to the community here. Much of our programming is based on talk radio, a 38 per cent spoken word content. We will simply produce -- if we know that we are going to be supplying content to the west, we will be very conscientious of that in our origination of the programming. So, we don't feel that it's a hindrance. I mean where you are going to notice it most, I think, is in local advertising in Toronto. And it really is just an upstart service until we actually get our feet in the water, earn some dollars and are able to expand services. It's going to be in our best interest to give the best service we possibly can to this market. So we are just asking to upstart with only two and a half hours original programming because that's only what we can do right now until further funds become available. But we believe that our national service originating in Toronto will be very relevant.

2576 We would be happy to go over the programming schedule with you in detail to show you what programs would be relevant to the Calgary audience as well as the Toronto market.

2577 Michele would like to add something.

2578 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thrush...?

2579 MS THRUSH: I also just wanted to say a small comment on that.

2580 Growing up in southern Alberta as an aboriginal woman, just to hear things coming from the east, whether it's the east or the west or whatever, to hear aboriginal voice, to hear aboriginal music, is something that would connect me to my identity and to the young people of this territory. If it's coming from the east, it's a start, and it's a voice, and it's very important for our young people to hear that.

2581 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you decided to jump in, am I right?

--- Laughter / Rires

2582 MR. FARMER: Yes. Currently, yes, it is.

2583 THE CHAIRPERSON: A jump start perhaps --

--- Laughter / Rires

2584 MR. KENNEDY: Mr. Chair, if I may just pick up briefly on your question which, I believe, was the limited -- perhaps that wasn't your word -- but the limited amount of Calgary programming.

2585 I believe that's only true if we don't have the resources and if our overall plan is not put in place. I believe if our plan is approved and our partner's, Newcap, financial plan is put in place, we intend, for example, Gary, I believe it's $84,000 is part of that that would allow us to set up an actual bureau in Calgary which would generate local content. But not only that, the people who are here supporting us today from these local urban organizations have an immense amount of information to share with our brothers and sisters across the country and, not only that, through the repeater here in Calgary. And once we have some resources I believe kick-started in Calgary, it will just help expand and have a place to distribute this local content.

2586 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kennedy.

2587 Talking about local content, the CRTC's native broadcasting policy states that the ownership of a native radio licensee should provide for a board membership by the native population of the region served.

2588 The Commission notes that none of AVR's board of directors come from Calgary.

2589 Can you comment on this and explain how, despite composition of the board, you feel you would meet the needs and the interests of the aboriginal people in the Calgary area?

2590 MR. FARNHAM: Well, we are in the process of currently expanding our board of directors, of course, and Marilyn Buffalo, who is with us today, is, you know, the outgoing president of the Native Women's Association of Canada and is a member of the Sampson Cree Band in Alberta. We have, also, many other members here who specifically live in Calgary. But we would be honoured to have a member of the Calgary native community as a member of our board if, indeed, we are awarded a licence.

2591 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Farmer.

2592 I want to talk a bit more about your -- you state you propose to increase the amount of local Calgary programming as resources become available and in your critical path of development that you filed with us, it shows that a news bureau would be established in Calgary, you know, between July 2002 and June 2003.

2593 Can you make a commitment in this area, understanding that you cannot commit for the Newcap but just on behalf of yourself?

2594 MR. FARMER: I think we -- well, I don't want to put a condition on myself but I feel confident that we could get that service up and operating before that date.

2595 THE CHAIRPERSON: The next question, or the next part of that question, actually, does deal with the putting of a condition on there.

2596 Would you be prepared to accept a conditional licence requiring that a news bureau be established in Calgary by June 2003?

2597 MR. FARMER: That's an excellent idea. Yes, we would.

2598 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are very flexible.

2599 How many staff members do you anticipate hiring for this news bureau? Or do you anticipate it would be run by volunteers?

2600 MR. FARMER: Robert, would you like to answer that question?

2601 MR. KENNEDY: I think I caught it as I was receiving a note, but the number of staff --

2602 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, staff or volunteers, I guess, would be part of the question, and then how many after that.

2603 MR. KENNEDY: One to two staff. But, certainly, volunteers, unlimited in the context of -- as you know, we have stated that part of our community-inclusive process is to have our aboriginal advisory circles, which would include not only advice on editorial programming, board membership, anything that would guide us from the aboriginal community would include members from the youth advisory group, the friendship centre and all of the key urban aboriginal organizations who, as I say, have so many programs in place now that they provide service to our people. That needs to get out there, the information about these valuable programs, that the aboriginal community and governments, both provincial and federal and local, are involved. But, quite frankly, we need to increase the communication in a part of that, so I'm seeing a lot of volunteers tied to that bureau, as well.

2604 MR. FARMER: Joshua would like to make a statement as well.

2605 MR. FRASER: I think the support from the community is really strong for this radio station with the non-profit community in Calgary, especially the aboriginal one. They are quite united and they really promote this radio station.

2606 I know there are programs at Mount Royal College and SAIT, broadcasting and journalism, which have a few aboriginal students who are looking for this sort of experience. And it's good for their own résumé, as well, but it's also -- it would be excellent. I think they would be very willing to support the radio station and to volunteer their time. Me and Redmond are an example of two individuals who are very interested in supporting this radio station.

2607 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Fraser.

2608 MR. HORVATH: If I could add something, too.

2609 I have been working with volunteers, at the University of Calgary, producing aboriginal programming, and it's been a lot of fun. I get volunteers -- there's a native centre at the university and I'm linked in with the president and the leaders at the University of Calgary, and they are always coming down, almost on a monthly basis, to do panels and discussion, and it's all on a volunteer basis, and they have always got new story ideas, new things that they would like to get on the air. It has not been a challenge for me, in any way.

2610 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thankyou, Mr. Horvath.

2611 Mr. Farmer, in looking at your filed critical path of development, I don't see any indication you plan to set up a separate broadcast studio in Calgary.

2612 Do you foresee a time when Calgary may have its own studio facilities? And if so, when during the first licence term might that be?

2613 MR. FARMER: Maybe we should just have a quick meeting about this before we give an answer, just to get some --

2614 THE CHAIRPERSON: You certainly can.

--- Pause / Pause

2615 MR. FARMER: Mr. Kennedy will answer that for you.

2616 MR. KENNEDY: The answer is yes. The qualifier is timing and availability of resources.

2617 Programming -- I don't think we have difficulty in the amount of programming that we could gather and make available from urban aboriginal people in Calgary, but I don't think we want to leave you with the impression that it can be done cheaply and that it can be done easily.

2618 The commitments that Mr. Farmer has made to your questions relate to, certainly, bare bones. You know. I don't believe it's what you would ask of CBC or others, in terms of the need in the community. So I think I just want to qualify the "yes": timing and also significant resources. We can be hopeful we will gather them locally but, quite frankly, it's contingent upon the arrangement we have presented to the Commission, in terms of our financial plan.

2619 I hope I answered your question.

2620 THE CHAIRPERSON: Most of it.

2621 Do you think it's possible within the first term of licence?

2622 MR. FARMER: I know that we are a little worried about, you know, just making a commitment but, yes, I think within the seven years, for sure. I feel confident. I was ambitiously wandering around Calgary for weeks before the hearing here talking to the community about, you have space, there is space here, there is space available for us to move right into the community and establish studios right off the kick. There is interest in that. But we don't have any signed agreements to present to you today, but I think, easily, we could assure you that within the first seven-year term that we would have production studios developed here in Calgary.

2623 THE CHAIRPERSON: If you were granted a licence, how much original local programming will be available on the proposed Calgary station by the end of the licence term? Say five, six, seven years out. How much local programming do you anticipate would be available and how much of that local programming would be directed specifically to Calgary residents?

2624 MR. KENNEDY: I'm told up to 33 per cent was the figure we had extracted.

2625 THE CHAIRPERSON: So 33 per cent original local programming near the end of the licence term.

2626 MR. KENNEDY: Yes.

2627 THE CHAIRPERSON: And how much of that directed to the Calgary residents? All of it or some of it?

2628 MR. KENNEDY: I believe it would all be unless for some reason there was -- well, there wouldn't be resistance. Yes, that would be targeted to Calgary.

2629 MR. MacLEOD: If I could just add to that point?

2630 While the focus of our application is to make this part of a system across Canada that particularly serves urban aboriginal people, we are very mindful of the communities that are in the area, and they will certainly be a part of the programming as well given that two out of the three are already producing a lot of programming and are very interested in feeding into the programming that we will present.

2631 So, as we mentioned earlier, we may immediately -- and we have been talking to people since we have been working this Calgary application -- we may immediately add some of the programming from Calgary to the national feed. So even though it will not be produced at a studio in Calgary it will be produced from radio facilities in this area.

2632 But when we mentioned the up to 33 per cent. I think our feeling is that, at a point where the community in Calgary was able to produce that level of programming for inclusion here in Calgary, we would likely be seeing an application come forward from a group for perhaps a separate local licence, because once, you know, there is that much interest we would think that, you know, there would be a group here that would be looking for a completely local station.

2633 There certainly is interest in all the cities we have met with people across Canada on this national development program in having their own local stations with their own local programs. But we see this national network and the station that we are putting in being, as Gary likes to say, an upstart to get that interest and to build that programming team in each city.

2634 MR. FARMER: If I might add as well, Commissioner Williams, that already, once we even go on air, we have to use Siksika where we are established and also studios in Morely. Both are committed to the effort for programming. If you look at our map that we have given to you you will see that both those communities are in our listening range and our proposed service.

2635 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you foresee a time during the first --

2636 MR. FARMER: I'm sorry, we have a comment from --

2637 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry.

2638 MR. FARMER: It's all right.

2639 MS BUFFALO: An additional comment, Mr. Chair.

2640 I would like to say that I think Calgary is a very unique community. Yes, I have lived in Ottawa for seven years but not all the time. I have spent a lot of time here as well. We have many corporate friends in the city of Calgary. When I say "we", I mean all of us that reside in Alberta.

2641 For instance, we have partnership arrangements with Husky and Syncrude. We own Peace Hills Trust. We are growing we are developing. I see radio as only another avenue for us, to give opportunity for us as educators to be able to work even further down the road with our partners. I see absolutely nothing but positive growth and developing and extracting funds from some of our good partners in program development. I think we are there now.

2642 I see nothing but absolute fun for our young people being equal participants with the rest of society. For many years, for the last 200 years, we have been expected to assimilate and to learn the English language, and I think we have done that rather well, but we now want to begin teaching. We want to bring our neighbours along in teaching them our languages and our culture and our lifestyle and grow with our families in the Calgary area.

2643 Thank you.

2644 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Buffalo.

2645 Mr. Farmer, do you foresee a time during the first term of licence when the Calgary station might have a greater proportion of local programming than programming that is received from the station in Toronto?

2646 MR. FARMER: Just to qualify Mark's statements earlier about our efforts are to get broadcasting up any way we can, so we will encourage this community to actually embrace the licence and come after it themselves and go full time.

2647 Hopefully we can augment their programming in the future, seven years down the line, anyway that they would like us to. But our effort is just to try and get our people up any way we can. So we support any effort.

2648 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you don't have quotas from each community that will be on your national feed? Is it a first come, first serve? Like if everybody is producing, eventually the time is filled.

2649 MR. FARMER: Yes. I think it is going to be based on the quality of the contents. If the content meets their interest. I hope there will be a line up. Hopefully there is a struggle to get to programming air because whoever can produce the best content is going to be the winner. I think that's what it's all about is trying to create good content.

2650 THE CHAIRPERSON: And when you make these decisions, I guess that's where the regionally represented board comes in then, so that there is an even distribution, so to speak.

2651 MR. FARMER: That's right. Thank you.

2652 MR. MacLEOD: I would just like to add as well that when you say "programming from Toronto", well, the programming is originating from Toronto. In fact, the group of people that are currently putting the programming together for which we hope to launch in the near future come from 25 different nations across Canada already that grouped.

2653 Toronto is a gathering place for people, so in fact the interest of the people that were producing that live in Toronto is from all over the country, plus the programming service from Toronto will have programming from Mi'kmaq people that are operating a radio station in Eskasone in Nova Scotia, from Maliseet people in Tobique in New Brunswick. I mean we already have arrangements with them to take some of their programming.

2654 So the service that comes out of Toronto is in fact going to have representation from across the country and interests and voices of people across the country. The only common factor is that they will be in Toronto at that time.

2655 Thank you.

2656 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. MacLeod.

2657 Mr. Farmer, in your letter of clarification to the Commission dated 25 July, 2000, you say:

"AVR does not project exceeding an average of two minutes of advertising per hour on any broadcasting day." (As read)

2658 Yet you are requesting that AVR be given an exemption from the four-minute ad limitations in the Native Broadcasting Policy. If you are not going to be using more than two, why do you need more than four, I guess, is the question?

2659 MR. FARMER: That was the budgets originally were based on, you know, 1.5 minutes per hour to, you know, meet our budget requirements. We didn't want to be caught short that if indeed the program underwriting or the corporate underwriting for programming isn't meeting the amount of money that we need to make the station work, that we just wanted to have that fallback so that we can pump up the effort to get more advertising on the air and lay off the corporate underwriting.

2660 If the advertising is going to work for us, then when we want to have that option.

2661 THE CHAIRPERSON: Let's say the Calgary station is, for all intents and purposes now, a repeater of the Toronto station, and the Toronto station currently has no ad restrictions, how does the Calgary station remain in compliance?

2662 The Toronto station has no advertising restrictions. The Calgary station is repeating Toronto programming but it is limited to this four-minute maximum, how will that work for the Calgary station to remain in compliance?

2663 MR. FARMER: Just give me one second on that question. I am a little confused.

2664 What you are asking is: how does the Calgary market sustain itself?

2665 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. If Calgary is not allowed to have more than four minutes of advertising but Toronto can have much more advertising than four minutes, how does the Calgary station remain in compliance, like, if it is restricted to four minutes?

2666 MR. KENNEDY: If I may, I think one simple answer and one simple solution is the technology allows for control of that in terms of distribution/ deletion. That would be my --

2667 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you would delete the excess advertisements, if that's the way it worked out.

2668 MR. KENNEDY: It's a heads-up that would need to be addressed certainly in the distribution, yes.

2669 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am going to spend a bit more time talking about advertising.

2670 The Commission's policy is that generally it does not permit licensees to solicit advertising in markets where the licensee does not provide local programming to that market.

2671 Can you explain why AVR should be allowed to solicit advertising from Calgary when the service will provide very little programming directed specifically to Calgary residents? Like, it is directed to aboriginal people nationwide is what I understand.

2672 MR. FARMER: We are not asking for any local advertising in our current budget to operate the Calgary service. We are relying totally on the national.

2673 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Okay. So you have stated:

"There are no plans to sell local advertising for airing only in the Calgary market. Prospective advertisers would be solicited from every region of the country." (As read)

2674 Does that not include Calgary?

2675 MR. FARMER: Yes. Certainly for the national market, yes.

2676 THE CHAIRPERSON: But not local.

2677 MR. FARMER: Not local.

2678 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you.

2679 Let's talk about your Toronto radio station that you appeared last January and got a licence sometime later.

2680 Tell us, what is the current status of your radio station? Are you on air now?

2681 MR. FARMER: No, we are not. We have to do some testing obviously first on 106.5, because we have had some unexpected pit stops. Of course the whole project was put on hold because of the francophone situation -- they put an appeal in -- so legitimately it is difficult for us even to yet confirm that we are legitimate owners of 106.5 until that has been through the courts, et cetera, and cleared up.

2682 Secondly, our efforts for the past time have been spent -- of course, the Calgary and Vancouver applications and our national licence has brought itself forward, so we have been really busy preparing for this hearing and for Vancouver.

2683 So everything is going fine. We feel very confident that we will meet our deadline of June 2001. In fact, we are ambitious to be on the air long before that.

2684 THE CHAIRPERSON: Actually, maybe if I can ask legal counsel.

2685 His last answer indicates that maybe they could not proceed because of the appeal. I can ask another question while you think about an answer to that and then get back to you, if that is okay.

2686 MR. BATSTONE: What?

2687 THE CHAIRPERSON: The question is: Because of the appeal, has the AVR station in Toronto been delayed? Is that a factor? Okay. The answer is yes.

--- Pause / Pause

2688 MR. BATSTONE: Yes. I'm sorry. I'm not particularly familiar with the direction that was given in that case. I mean to the extent that the Commission's decision licensing the application in Toronto has not been overturned, you know, you could take the view, I think, that it is still valid. But of course there is the practical reality there that if it were overturned you would be stuck having made investments and whatnot that he couldn't recover.

2689 I'm sorry, I don't have all the particulars --

2690 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand that. I don't want to put the Commission or the applicant on the spot, and particularly because it is a matter before the courts, but I just wanted a little bit of clarification for my own information.

2691 So your launch, I guess it is now a tentative launch date, of June 2001 --

2692 MR. FARMER: Yes. We will be on the air for sure by then.

2693 THE CHAIRPERSON: Have you attracted staff, made arrangements for equipment, even tentatively at this stage?

2694 MR. FARMER: I would be happy to have Mr. MacLeod let you in on some of the activities that have been going on within our community.

2695 It has been very active. Everyone is just ready to go. But there are lots of people around our group together, collectively. We are really a collective movement of journalists and mediamakers who are just anxious to go. So, you know, we could pick our staff tomorrow. They are all around us. So that is not an issue.

2696 Where we are right now is negotiating with -- we are trying to find an aboriginal partner to move into this movement with to match Newcap's commitment dollar for dollar and so we are actively pursuing those areas too so that we can move even faster in terms of doing our A plan as opposed to our B plan in terms of staffing.

2697 So we are still in negotiations and working hard to underwrite our activities and upstart.

2698 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Farmer.

2699 Now your application states that since the call for applications is in the Calgary market, Aboriginal Voices Radio has undertaken various initiatives just to gear up to $250,000 in new funding to specifically cover the cost of launching and operating a new Calgary radio service.

2700 Could you tell us a bit about how this fundraising effort is progressing and what types of activities?

2701 MR. FARMER: Maybe I will send that question over to Bob Kennedy.

2702 MR. KENNEDY: Mr. Chair, I think it might be an opportunity for us now, if we could. We have some -- some of these things.

--- Laughter / Rires

2703 MR. KENNEDY: Charts -- I lost the words. We have some numbers that we could walk through there.

--- Pause / Pause

2704 MR. FARMER: So in regards to your question, Commissioner, it is only 100,000 actually to get the Calgary service up, so if we need to we have the reserve fund there, if indeed we can't meet our fundraising requirements. But we feel confident and that is not really an issue for us.

2705 Maybe I can get Mr. MacLeod to go over this plan for you more in detail, if you would like.

2706 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that would be nice.

2707 MR. MacLEOD: Well, I think perhaps you will be asking a question where going through this will actually provide the answer to that question. So I will just wait until you ask a question that is appropriate to this, if that is okay.

2708 I guess the reason that I am saying that is because what we are talking about here is the combination of cost for Toronto and for Calgary. That is the main thing that you are seeing on the board and these boards have been prepared mainly for our supporting intervention in favour of the Newcap application. So you see a relationship between what the Newcap funding would do for AVR beyond the amount of revenue that we generate for ourselves, according to our business plan.

2709 So I understand you are talking about the fundraising plan for the Calgary station specifically at this point. Correct?

2710 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you have mentioned in your application that you have undertaken certain initiatives to raise $250,000. I guess we would like to know what those initiatives were and how they are progressing.

2711 MR. MacLEOD: Those initiatives are under way and we have not had any conclusive success in raising that money to this point. But they are perhaps in a bit of a hiatus while we are attending to this hearing, but they will continue after the hearing is over and, in fact, if we are awarded the licence, if we have not met our objective by that time, then we would continue fundraising.

2712 I mean, it's a relatively small amount of money. We have approached a number of people that if we get an approval from any of them, it could potentially cover that minimal cost to get us up and running. But in the worst case scenario, as we indicated in our deficiency response in the application, we would go to our reserve fund that we have set aside and borrow money from that in order to make sure that we did not miss the deadline.

2713 Of course, you have heard us mention the Newcap application here in Calgary a number of times and that would obviously immediately solve this problem if that were approved.

2714 MR. KENNEDY: If I may, Mr. Chairman.

2715 As I am sure you know, this is a complex undertaking that Aboriginal Voices Radio is involved in because there are a number of scenarios which are laid out here, a number of scenarios that Toronto is a stand-alone -- first of all, we don't know that we have an Aboriginal Voices Radio network. We don't know that we will in fact have a network. We don't know whether we will have Calgary.

2716 So in terms of the business aspect of it, it's quite complex to be speculating on how you manage a possible scenario in Calgary. So we do have fundraising contingencies in place, but we are hopeful, of course, that you would see fit to grant us both the network licence and the licence in Calgary for the repeater as well as the funding that would be attached to that.

2717 If that doesn't take place, of course, we would go to plan B, as Gary said, and we would have to spend more time on it then.

2718 MR. FARMER: Also we would get the Toronto service going. We are only using 1.5 minutes of commercials per hour currently in our current budget. It's just increasing that, work harder on sales in order to upstart our service to generate the kind of money we need to get it all going.

2719 As you know, it is difficult to get the infrastructure going. It is one of the challenges we face as new operators in this country and there is a lot of support out there for us. It is just that having a licence and building our organization, and I think we are doing a really good job. I feel confident that we will be able to get through this.

2720 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Farmer, you estimate that by year four your station will generate $25,000 per year from fundraising.

2721 Will this fundraising activity involve on-air solicitation of ads, like PBS or CKUA in Alberta, for example?

2722 MR. FARMER: Yes, it will.

2723 THE CHAIRPERSON: You had a study produced by Peter Doering Consultations on market research. Can you give just a quick thumbnail sketch of the results of that survey in terms of the perceived need for a radio station and the proportion of the perceived need for the aboriginal station?

2724 MR. FARMER: Sure.

2725 Peter.

2726 MR. DOERING: Thank you, Gary.

2727 Mr. Chair. We conducted a survey in ten major markets across Canada. A total of 1,500 Canadians were interviewed and we were investigating both their interest in the proposed service as well as support for the service and support for the overall philosophy and objectives of Aboriginal Voices Radio.

2728 As you can see in the application, the results were overwhelmingly in favour in each of the markets that we investigated. Nine in ten Canadians in each of those markets were very supportive of the concept and with respect to the likelihood of listening to the particular service, we found on the overall total of the ten markets, that just over one in ten Canadians indicated that they would be interested in listening to the service and learning more about the aboriginal community.

2729 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Doering.

2730 I just have a few more questions here. Mr. Farmer, if you need a moment --

2731 MR. FARMER: Sorry.

2732 THE CHAIRPERSON: As you are aware, your proposal is mutually exclusive with another applicant in that you are both proposing to use frequency 8.1 in Calgary.

2733 This being the case, and in the event the Commission concludes that both proposals should be licensed, have you or your engineering consultants looked at any other available frequencies that could satisfy your coverage objectives for Calgary, and if so, what were your findings? I am going to wrap these all together.

2734 Would you be willing to use an AM frequency? Would you be willing to revise your technical parameters by proposing the use of an alternate FM frequency, even if it means of less quality, a lower class frequency?

2735 MR. FARMER: Well, you know, I feel very strongly that no AM, it's too expensive to operate for us obviously in an upstart operation, and we are really working in the FM area now, once we have been granted JUMP-FM, of course, in the City of Toronto. So we are anxious to carry on with that work. It's a far more affordable medium for us at this time.

2736 If I could turn to Mr. Matthews in regards to some of the research that he has done regarding the alternative frequencies in the area.

2737 John.

2738 MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Gary.

2739 We picked 38.1 because we knew it had the least possibility of interfering with airport frequencies in Calgary and we would be willing to switch to one of the several other frequencies available if necessary.

2740 However, we are competing with Golden West for 88.1 and we believe that Golden West would have an easier time of finding an alternate frequency. They actually had originally applied for a different frequency than 88.1, but then in consultation with Industry Canada, switched to 88.1 in order to meet the requirements of NAVCOM interference.

2741 In fact, if they were to choose a site, for instance, closer to High River than Calgary, then they will be able to avoid the interference problems they ran into with the original frequency they had applied for.

2742 So in summary, yes, we would be willing to change parameters, if necessary, but we might suggest that it might be easier for Golden West to do that.

2743 MR. KENNEDY: As well, Mr. Chair, with due respect to myself and the grey hair that is on my head and my generation that was quite aware of what AM was and quite frankly our urban aboriginal youth and the quality of the music that they expect, they certainly don't listen to AM radio. I mean, with respect, that would be a practical, logical -- if we were to say yes, I think we would be wrong to accept AM.

2744 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Matthews, Mr. Kennedy.

2745 I have a final question that you can think about -- I am not recommending you answer it until to hear the rest of the questions -- other panellists may have questions for you. That will be: given that your proposal is competing with another application for 88.1, and in addition there are several applications and other frequencies also competing for an FM licence in the Calgary area, I would like to know -- maybe a quick summary on why your application is the best use of this frequency. And it will give you the opportunity to sum up in a few minutes your application's best points.

2746 But before you answer that, I will see if any of the other Commissioners or legal counsel have questions.

2747 Andrée? Oh, you have a fair amount of questions. We will start with Commissioner Langford, please.

2748 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Good afternoon, evening, trick or treat. I am not sure where we are. There is no clock here. But anyway -- I suppose we will be waylaid by goblins on the way home.

2749 My question is about this AM versus FM. AM in some sense is looked upon as the kind of poor sister or something, people are down on it because the music quality is better on FM. But you have a lot of talk shows and I understand that the technologies are compatible. I mean, if you were repeating shows from Toronto, you could repeat on AM what started on FM. That wouldn't be a problem.

2750 I mean, I don't know how to ask this but to just straight ask you is this kind of knee jerk to say, "No, we want to go FM" because everybody goes FM or have you really had sort of discussions and studies on the AM?

2751 I just want to make sure. I am not questioning your answer. You can give whatever answer you like, obviously. But I just want to make sure that you have explored it because it struck me when I read your application that there was a lot of talk and one sees that there are four viable AM stations in Calgary right now and they tend to have a lot of talk on them.

2752 So I just wondered whether you had in fact investigated that as a viable option?

2753 MR. FARMER: I am sure I know that Bob Kennedy has an answer. I would like to add something too. Go ahead, Bob.

2754 MR. KENNEDY: At the risk of repeating myself, first of all, I can't speak for the other applicants and commercial broadcasters who are non-aboriginal and don't see their community the way we do.

2755 First of all, the majority of our people in the urban aboriginal setting are youth, that's including spoken word and talk. The reason they will come to our radio station is because they need to know about their culture, they need to know about what's going on with their languages and the elders and what's going on in the community.

2756 But right now we know those youth don't listen to AM radio. I am not aware of any studies that indicate youth have gone back to AM radio. Most AM, in my understanding of the popular research, is that it is used for a lot of oldies, tunes I might be familiar with, but certainly in the AM format that they are used in the major markets.

2757 First of all, that would be my argument that we certainly wouldn't want to go to AM because how are we going to drag our aboriginal youth to a medium that they are not familiar with and they would resist probably. More so, I would like to hear, if we could, John Matthews, who certainly has expertise in this area, if we may.

2758 MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you.

2759 The cost of an AM station because of the land and tower requirements is in the millions of dollars, whereas an FM station can be put on the air for hundreds of thousands of dollars. AM is simply unattainable unless you have very deep pockets.

2760 MR. FARMER: I would like to finally add that I have been a part of this process for a long time. I have watched ethnic communities in this country build economies with radio on FM currently.

2761 We saw who you awarded the AM licence to in Toronto. We would have taken it gladly because of the 10 million listeners we could have potentially reached, but in the end you chose to give it to 55-plus. That's a precedent you set.

2762 We are trying to reach youth. We are trying to reach -- a service they put in Auckland, New Zealand, 10 years ago, they put 25 stations together with a major station in Auckland and they climbed to number one within six months. They are still number one in Auckland, New Zealand, a community based aboriginal service.

2763 We feel that we need a chance here. We don't need AM radio right now. It's antiquated. It's not where it's at for our communities. It's time for us to take control of our economic operations here and our vision of programming. We want to do it on FM and that's what we are asking for.

2764 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I asked a question and I got an answer. Thank you very much.

2765 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Langford.

2766 Commissioner Cram.

2767 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

2768 Mr. Farmer, I am highly mindful of the fact that this is a competitive forum and so I feel compelled to clarify two things with you.

2769 If I understand about the Toronto appeal, has that already been dealt with, the francophone appeal?

2770 MR. FARMER: No. It's still in the courts. It hasn't been -- it has been in the courts for quite some time.

2771 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Or with Cabinet?

2772 MR. FARMER: Yes, excuse me, I guess it's in Cabinet now. Yes, it is.

2773 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And are you aware that they applied to overturn the decision about you? They could or they could not have?

2774 MR. FARMER: As far as I understand it they are not trying to overturn us. In fact, the francophones gave us a letter of support for our application.

2775 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So that appeal should not in any way have delayed you?

2776 MR. FARMER: Well, it's just there though. It's legitimate. We are named in it. All the applicants were named in it. All the legal documents I have received have all three winners on, so I am just letting you know that that was reality legally.

2777 MR. MacLEOD: Commissioner Cram, I think it is important to clarify that all the decisions that the Commission rendered in Toronto were appealed by the francophone group. So even though they told us we have nothing personal against you, we don't want to keep you from getting a frequency, they essentially wanted all the decisions set aside until such time --

2778 COMMISSIONER CRAM: That was in their application? I didn't think it was.

2779 MR. MacLEOD: I believe that it was. It was in French, so I was relying on a translation as a unilingual, but that's what I understood.

2780 I have spoken to CRTC legal counsel, Mr. Gay, about this and kept informed of it.

2781 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You then talked about two and a half hours of original programming right from the first. Do I understand that what that really is is Calgary Community Calendar which will be between one minute and two minutes 30 seconds in length, repeated 10 to 20 times per day?

2782 MR. FARMER: Well, I think -- let me just check a second.

--- Pause / Pause

2783 MR. FARMER: Yes.


2785 MR. FARMER: Yes, you are.

2786 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So it really is when you talk original programming, it is one minute to two minutes 30 seconds, per day?

2787 MR. FARMER: Yes, it's information of things that are going on in Calgary.

2788 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. So it is not 2.5 hours original programming. It is one minute to two minutes 30 seconds, per day, repeated.

2789 MR. FARMER: Well, I think the information is --

2790 MR. MacLEOD: The answer is, yes, it should not have been characterized as 2.5 hours of original programming, only as local programming.

2791 It's only in the application because that's the definition the CRTC puts on that programming, otherwise we would have said -- it's just a clear definition situation.

2792 We are not pretending that that is highly original or creative programming out of Calgary, but it is essential for a service in Calgary to let people in Calgary what activities are going on in the local community. So that is the one element we could not ignore if we were going to upstart a radio station that had to be in there.

2793 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I hear you.

2794 When you then talk to up to 33 per cent local programming by year five, six and seven, and it would be directed to Calgary, how much of that will be original versus repeat programming?

2795 MR. MacLEOD: It's entirely possible that some of those hours could be repeated -- in other words, a show that is heard live on Wednesday is repeated on the weekend, but generally the intention is that those would be all original hours of programming and, as we mentioned earlier in our presentation, we have producers already producing programming in local communities here. We have people sitting on the team here who are chomping at the bit at the opportunity to be able to produce programming and have it heard outside of this forum.

2796 I think it hasn't really come up in the hearing, but I would like to make sure that the Commission is aware that granting us a network licence it is not just going to be Toronto and Calgary, but rather there are native broadcasting entities across the country that have told us that they are interested in taking our programming and airing it, at least the overnight section, if not during the day, taking national news or whatever.

2797 So there will be potentially 50 to 100 stations that are carrying some portions of the programming once you grant us a licence. And, of course, once we are producing it it's only these two stations at this point that we are asking for a licence directly in our own control. Thank you.

2798 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

2799 MR. FARMER: Commissioner Cram, I think and I know this isn't a precedent, but I think that I would be honoured to make a commitment of two and a half hours of original programming at the start of the uplink here. I think that with the talent at the time that we wrote this licence we hadn't done as much research into the community as we have now. I feel confident that we would be able to make that commitment at the top of networking this station here.

2800 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Farmer, unfortunately you missed my discussion on the first day about people amending their applications at the hearing and how we would maintain the integrity of the hearing if we allowed people to amend their applications as time went on.

2801 Now, should you wish to apply to amend you are certainly free to do that and the other parties are certainly free to object to it, and we will then decide whether or not we would accept your amendment. I mean that's the only way we could handle that. I apologize, but I don't see any other way that we could maintain the integrity of our process.

2802 MR. FARMER: No. I understand. I always seem to get myself in trouble here. I have done it again. Thank you.

2803 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And you recognize that I am a lawyer.

2804 And back at lawyer things, my colleague, Commissioner Williams, referred to the native broadcasting policy and it is stated that the undertaking must be owned and controlled by a non-profit organization, whose structure provides for board membership by the native population of the region served period.

2805 Is it your view that having one member on your board is in compliance and if you were given a Calgary station having one member on your board from the Calgary region would be in compliance with the policy?

2806 MR. FARMER: It's a fairly unique situation that we are proposing to you, Commissioner Cram. I feel that a small revision certainly is in line with the policy. It is pretty outdated. I think you wrote that back.

2807 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I don't disagree with that.

2808 My point is are you asking for an exemption or do you think you are in compliance?

2809 MR. FARMER: I believe it's in compliance with the effort that we have here, especially with our circle of advisors that we are proposing for the Calgary community here is representative of having their very own board in a way. If you look at the advisory as a local board, one could relate that they will indeed be the one directing the content and the development of the service here in Calgary.

2810 MR. KENNEDY: I understand your question and I agree with Gary. The way we are structuring our organization and operation and our community accountability clearly indicates that we have probably more than any broadcast organization because of the nature of the urban aboriginal community and because of what we mean by an advisory circle. It's a complete inclusive community process.

2811 So board membership is one thing, but also membership in the society and the organization and that will be dictated by that structure with the advisory circles.

2812 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I respect the inclusiveness and the issue of the board. All I am asking is do you believe you are in compliance with the policy or if you are not do you ask for an exemption. That's all I want to know. You believe you are in compliance?

2813 MR. FARMER: Yes.

2814 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And that would be by adding the one member, Ms Buffalo, that you were suggesting you would?

2815 MR. FARMER: And the combination of the local Calgary advisory circle.

2816 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Commissioner Williams asked you why you, AVR, should be licensed ahead of Golden West. You initially, I believe, talked about the size of the community and so that brings me right to why didn't you apply in Regina?

2817 MR. FARMER: We will.

2818 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Wait. Why didn't you apply in Regina? There is a population of at least, I believe, 50,000 in the city, compared to 15,000 here in the city. And when you talk about the area served, 40,000, I am going to suggest to you that it is probably 70,000.

2819 So using the same argument you said to us about Golden West, why would you not have applied in my hometown first?

2820 MR. FARMER: We are applying in every major urban centre in this country. Calgary just happened to roll out first.

2821 MR. KENNEDY: If I may, Commissioner, your reference to 15,000 in Calgary, I am --

2822 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It's the census data that we have. I recognize it could be --

2823 MR. KENNEDY: Our reference point is 40,000 is a conservative figure, as indicated by the urban aboriginal organizations, those represented here, as well as the community service of the local government and the province.

2824 We think the number of urban aboriginal people is significant enough in Calgary, as well as Regina. I agree.

2825 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I appreciate your numbers for Regina. They are even higher.

2826 MR. MacLEOD: If I could make an addition to that which I think is directly to your question about why not in Regina. It is not only a case that the call didn't come for Regina, but in fact we feel blessed that the opportunity to apply came in Vancouver and Calgary first because they are markets that can really help our network roll faster.

2827 Regina, as much as it is a market where we will be in and we will reach the people of that community, it is not a market that will help the national revenues of the network to grow as fast as starting off in the major cities. Like I said, we feel blessed that the first three cities we are applying in happen to be perhaps the three most lucrative and the most desirable in terms of advertisers or anybody who wants to commit to that part of our revenue stream.

2828 So we are glad that it came this way, but obviously we will be in Regina as soon as we can.

2829 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I have essentially two more questions.

2830 Mr. Farmer, you were talking about we will encourage the community any way you can to put programming on.

2831 Do you eventually see that AVR will essentially be giving up the frequency to the community? Is that how you see things happening?

2832 MR. FARMER: Well, you know, no. I think that we will always provide a service here, as a repeat broadcaster for original programming that's going to be brought to this city from all over Canada.

2833 If indeed the success in this particular city leaves that there is room for yet another service that would take over the morning transit or, you know, whatever amount, eight hours or 15 hours a day, we would be here to support them and offer our programming to fit and, you know, mould any way they see fit. We are very open to the development of aboriginal broadcasting everywhere, including Calgary.

2834 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You were talking, Mr. MacLeod, about programming from the Mi'kmaq and from PQ, the province of Quebec.

2835 Any from NCI?

2836 MR. MacLEOD: We have had discussions with NCI about doing joint concerts, live concerts, together, perhaps during National Aboriginal Solidarity Day. We have talked to them about linking them into live programming. We have had a number of discussions with them about working together.

2837 I would say that the main interest in their discussions was in linking into Toronto, and that was the focus of their intention. We are aware of the submission that you got from NCI, regarding this application, but they clearly said in their application it's not that they are -- they are not against what we are doing, as far as our programming services go; they just have hesitations about the process that we are using.

2838 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The question, Mr. MacLeod, was: Do you have any specific arrangements with NCI for their programming to go on your station in Toronto?

2839 MR. MacLEOD: We haven't actually got contracts or signed agreements with any other party for programming; it's all circumstance where we -- until we know we have the licence, it's not a way we can dedicate our resources. We have, as you can imagine -- you know. It's easy to imagine the interest that somebody in a small community in New Brunswick would have at seeing their programming get out across Canada and also the interest they have in hearing programs that are produced out of Calgary. I mean, you know, the interest is very high. But we have no contractual arrangements with anybody.

2840 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you don't even know, then, that the programming is coming from the Mi'kmaq?

2841 MR. MacLEOD: No; we have actually, in our conversations with the Mi'kmaq station in Esksone, sat with them, looked at what they are producing and discussed which of their programs might be most appropriate to go on the national network and -- I mean they have in their volunteer-based environment a high turnover of programs that didn't make sense for us at the time because we don't even know which programs they will be producing at the time the network is approved. But I mean I'm telling you it's an informal arrangement, but it's -- you know, our intention is pure. Our intention is definitely to put, you know -- we want people in Calgary to be able to hear programming from Nova Scotia, and we will do it.

2842 COMMISSIONER CRAM: At page 14, and knowing that you know that I know that the native broadcasters from the three prairie provinces have essentially the same objections to your application, I read you to say, at the bottom of page 14 of your application today, AVRN will work closely and share programming with these existing native broadcasters, including the various native radio networks and societies which operate in northern and rural Canada.

2843 My question is: Why didn't you work with them before you came here?

2844 MR. FARMER: Well, you know, we could quote from our response that we offered on the --

2845 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Well, you are putting it on the record, that's why I'm --

2846 MR. FARMER: I see.

2847 We are totally open to working with them. We have been working with them for quite some time. You know. At our expense, we have entertained them all in Toronto for three-day meeting conference, back in 1999, and discussions were widespread about, you know, upstarting our national service here, and that's exactly what we have been doing. They have known of our plans for a long time.

2848 We haven't had a licence to really go and negotiate with them about which programming would be best served across the country, and we know that all the broadcasters, once we have a national service, are going to be dedicating some resources to getting some programming across the country. So, once we have that national licence in hand, we are really excited about dealing with all the native broadcasting that's going on in Canada, north or south, and trying to deliver it to wherever we can.

2849 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So, are you talking about the network licence, then?

2850 MR. FARMER: Yes, I'm referring to the network licence.

2851 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Well, if I were to talk about the Calgary licence, why didn't you approach all of the native broadcasters in Alberta and come -- and I recognize you have some of them -- and come to us with something from all of them, including the national scene?

2852 MR. FARMER: Well, we examined the Calgary market and talked to all the broadcasters that are in the Calgary region and had discussions with them. I have reached out to -- if you are talking specifically about Bert Crowfoot, I reached out to Bert several times in an effort to distribute programming to him, and he came to the conference that we had in 1999, there was discussions there, but we didn't -- Bert doesn't have any interest, I mean current interest in Calgary, so there really wasn't -- you know, we haven't talked to any of the national -- other people that are broadcasting, about delivery of their programming across the country, you know.

2853 So, in terms of the Calgary region, we went to all the Calgary people who are currently broadcasting, you know, very serious discussions about them, about how they could fit into our plan, and that's the truth of it.

2854 MR. KENNEDY: In addition, if I may just add quickly, we have, as you know, through the support illustrated here, spoken, as Mr. Farmer said, to local broadcasters who clearly indicated that they are not serviced here, they are under-serviced, they receive little or no support from the current aboriginal broadcasters, as you have named and described. So we are filling a void. I mean I think we are -- I don't mean to speak on their behalf, they can certainly speak to that, but that's why they are here today and look forward to supporting us and receiving the programming.

2855 COMMISSIONER CRAM: My last question is --

2856 MR. FARMER: I'm sorry. Miss Buffalo would like to add something.


2858 MS BUFFALO: Thank you very much.

2859 I would like to make an additional comment in that radio is really not new to you in the mainstream and there's -- I have been sitting here for the last few days listening to the diverse opinions about the airwaves and how they have controlled each other and themselves and the market. So, you know, I think we should be allowed the same. As aboriginal Canadians, we should be allowed the same, to grow, to aspire to new heights in capturing those airwaves ourselves, to have our voices heard. And no one has a monopoly on that. Not one person has the power to control all the voices in the universe.

2860 So, therefore, you know, if there's any dissenters -- you know, I'm really amazed at, you know, after 25 years ago -- I was the author and the one who initiated a proposal to have a native communications training program set up in partnership with Grant MacEwan College in Edmonton, which I understand now has been shut down. But we have got 25 years' of development. We have young people that have gone and graduated from those programs. And where are they? And why are they not working in the field of newspaper, radio and television arts?

2861 I think this is a natural follow-through since the Aboriginal People's Television Network. This is a natural, you know, growth. Second stage.

2862 Again, I say no one has a monopoly on it. It's ours and it's our oral tradition.

2863 Thank you.

2864 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

2865 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

2866 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cram, since she was out of order when she made a ruling on behalf of this panel on the admissibility of your upgraded original programming commitment changes and its effect on the fairness of our process -- what we are going to do now is we are going to take a brief five- or 10-minute recess to review this development with our legal counsel and come back with a ruling, today, on this matter.

2867 Mr. Secretary, if you could attend as well, please.

2868 Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 1730 / Suspension à 1730

--- Upon resuming at 1740 / Reprise à 1740

2869 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would like to take this time to call the Calgary public hearing back to order.

2870 We left to discuss an issue and we have returned. Legal counsel will read out our thoughts/determination on that matter.

2871 Thanks.

2872 MR. BATSTONE: Commissioner Cram, as you know, had expressed a concern about amendments being made to the commitments here at the hearing as part of this competitive process. This was an issue that was discussed earlier in the hearing.

2873 I would just like to, at this point, perhaps clarify the procedural options that are available to you.

2874 The rules of procedure provide that an application cannot be modified after it has been Gazetted without the consent of the Commission, in this case the panel. So of course it is open to you, if you with to modify your proposal, to include the two and a half hours of original programming to make that request of the Commission.

2875 Anyone who had any comments on that could of course make those comments in the course of the other phases of this proceeding, and the Commission would, at some point in the process, make a decision, it might be here, to upset the hearing, it could also just be in a decision itself.

2876 I just wanted to make sure that you are aware that you have that option, if you wish, and just to clarify sort of where we were on that.

2877 MR. FARMER: You are expecting a response from me as to what we would like to do. Is that what you are --

2878 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.

2879 MR. FARMER: Yes. We are still committed to the two and a half hours of the programming as it sits in our current application.

2880 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, Mr. Farmer. We will consider that in our deliberation.

--- Pause / Pause

2881 MR. FARMER: I'm sorry. We have had some discussion. Mr. Kennedy will answer this question for you.

2882 MR. KENNEDY: A communication issue here, I believe.

2883 The answer of yes is that we would like to stick with the amendment -- I know that is probably not the proper word, but to say what Mr. Farmer had committed to earlier, which was the additional commitment, yes.

2884 MR. BATSTONE: Just to be clear, it is two and a half hours of original local programming.

2885 MR. KENNEDY: Yes. For Calgary.

2886 MR. FARMER: But that is what's in our application, though.

2887 MR. KENNEDY: With respect, I believe the clarification that the Commission has made has allowed us to say yes to this and that we will make the commitment to the two and a half hours of original --

2888 MR. BATSTONE: Non-repeated.

2889 MR. KENNEDY:  -- non-repeated content programming. Yes.

2890 Thank you for your patience in the communication area there.

2891 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Noël.

2892 Okay. Commissioner McKendry.

2893 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: I just want to be clear. You are applying to amend your application?

2894 MR. KENNEDY: Do you know what? Now I'm having a bout of confusion and I thought I had it in -- would we be allowed a brief caucus to discuss this with our team here? May I make that request, Mr. Chair?

2895 THE CHAIRPERSON: Five minutes.

2896 MR. KENNEDY: Thank you.

--- Pause / Pause

2897 MR. FARMER: I think I have the answer for you now. I'm awfully sorry. Again, we are still new on the block here and from time to time --

2898 I was reacting of course to what Commissioner Cram was mentioning as when anyone says that whatever you are doing is not good enough. I always thought that, oh, well, you always just lay conditions on us, so I was thinking in that term, so I will be happy, you know, as a step up, not realizing what the fallout is here.

2899 We currently do not want to adjust our application as it sits. We do not want to appeal for an amendment to our current application at all. We are committed to stand by that and just to let you know that we are really committed to getting original programming here as fast as we possibly can, and that is all we are letting you know, that we are just going to leave our application as it sits.

2900 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess where we will go from here, then, is you will get your opportunity now to sum up your application, maybe in a few minutes, maybe describing why your application is the best use of the frequency 88.1.

2901 Mr. Farmer.

2902 MR. FARMER: We would like to start with Marilyn Buffalo.

2903 MR. BUFFALO: Commissioners, it gives me great pleasure to have played a major part in applying for this Aboriginal Voices Radio Station in Calgary. This gives our community a chance to strike a unique business partnership with Newcap and other local corporations.

2904 As a mother and a grandmother and as a national leader, I am very encouraged by this initiative, particularly since it concerns our children, who make up the majority of our population. I believe that it is now time that we, and our generation, start investing in our youth and teaching them to understand the power of voice.

2905 Our children make as high as 80 per cent of the population 30 years and under, and I think that is terribly unserviced. In some of our communities across this country, I don't think I need to go into it, you know what the problems are. In Calgary, in particular, with the unique needs of our children here and their educational requirements, the educational programming potential is unlimited.

2906 I believe that as educators it is time that we start putting our traditions into practice and start speaking and practising our oral traditions. Our traditional role as women, as our God-given right, is to teach and to heal. I believe that the power of voice has the ability to do that. We will claim our role back as educators and healers.

2907 I believe that radio provides us an opportunity, a natural opportunity, to partner and start partnering with institutions and engaging the mainstream society. Thank you very much.

2908 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Buffalo.

2909 Mr. Secretary.

2910 MR. FARMER: I'm sorry, Commissioner Williams. We have two other comments.

2911 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Please proceed.

2912 MR. KENNEDY: Thank you, Commissioners. I will keep it brief.

2913 As you heard at the outset in our presentation, we recognize that in fact what we are doing is we are running a radio business, albeit a not-for-profit society, accountable to the community and we have set in place structures to do this, working with legal counsel as well as financial project management, KPMG, and of most paramount importance, the local aboriginal community.

2914 Our business structure will ensure accountability to our broadcast partners, our sponsors, advertisers, the aboriginal communities and the Government of Canada.

2915 Thank you.

2916 MR. FARMER: Finally, Commissioners, I would like to add that for so many years we have been wards of the Canadian government. I am asking both the broadcasters that sit in this room and yourselves to begin to make room for us in this spectrum of media that we want to participate in. I believe it is every Canadian's responsibility to make this available to us so that we can make our lives better.

2917 We have evaluated the talent that we have in this city and we also evaluated across the country and we are very proud of the skills and talents that we have as a people. We feel confident that we will give you a wonderful service.

2918 We are honoured with the degree of local support that we have garnered here at this application. The support that we have on this panel is evidence to that and testament.

2919 We have a great willingness to participate in this process to ensure that we protect the airwaves for our people right across the country, from sea to sea. That's our objective. Calgary is the perfect location to make the first start in establishing our network service.

2920 You know, you have really helped us out by granting a licence to television northern Canada, for the Aboriginal People's Television Network, to all the broadcasters in the north who have had service for so long, but we in the south have gone without, and the time has come. This is where the major markets are. We know that we can't establish the kind of service that we want to establish without the support of your panel and without the support of the broadcasters in this room.

2921 If we would like to have 88.1, it is time for the other broadcasters to make room for us and for them to move to the AM or to other markets and other areas that will satisfy their needs so that they can make room for the aboriginal people. We feel strongly about this.

2922 We realize that the CBC, in its national application of licensing across the country, probably has four options here, I believe: three English language and possibly one French language working on AM and FM. The amount of local programming that they are doing originating out of Calgary is not any more than we are promising at this current hearing. So we feel good about what we have presented to you and we hope that you will make the next step.

2923 And licensing AVR in Toronto, of course we thank you for that as well. We would like to look forward to the licensing of our network application of course and the provisions here in Calgary; we look forward to that.

2924 And we will see you in Vancouver in three weeks.

2925 Thank you.

2926 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Farmer.

2927 Perhaps it could be from sea to sea to sea in recognition of your northern partners.

2928 MR. FARMER: You're very right. Excuse me.

2929 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary or counsel, are there any administrative matters that need to be taken care of?

2930 MR. BATSTONE: One thing perhaps you could do is, if you have a copy of the chart that you could give to us, perhaps not life size --

--- Laughter / Rires

2931 MR. BATSTONE:  -- we could put a copy of that on the record as well.

2932 MR. FARMER: Of course. Thank you. We will, yes.

2933 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Batstone.

2934 This brings the end of the day of this particular day of hearings for Calgary. We will reconvene at nine o'clock tomorrow morning to hear the application of Golden West Broadcasting. Thank you.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1755, to resume

on Wednesday, November 1, 2000 at 0900 / L'audience

est ajournée à 1755, pour reprendre le mercredi

1 novembre 2000 à 0900

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